No woman wants to face the horror of her husband’s betrayal. Or have to recover from the emotional, physical & financial trauma and never-ending consequences. But these courageous women DID. And we’ll walk with you, so YOU can too. If you’re experiencing pain, chaos, and isolation due to your husband’s lying, anger, gaslighting, manipulation, infidelity, and/or emotional abuse… If he’s undermined you and condemned you as an angry, codependent, controlling gold-digger… If you think your husband might be an addict or narcissist. Or even if he’s “just” a jerk… If your husband (or ex) is miserable to be around, this podcast is for YOU.
Before Scheduling “Couples Therapy Near Me” Here’s What You Need To Know
Jan 20, 2026
Has your husband betrayed your trust, lied to you, or left you feeling confused about what’s really happening? Many women think, “Maybe we just need couples therapy near me to fix this.”
It makes perfect sense to want support when the marriage feels unstable.
But here’s what most women don’t learn until much later:
After interviewing over 200 women who experienced their husband’s betrayal, I discovered that couple therapy often makes things worse if he has a history of lying. Many women told me they walked out feeling even more confused than they were when they walked in.
Before you schedule couple therapy near me, here’s what you need to know.
Why Couple Therapy Near Me Often Backfires After Betrayal
Any couple therapy, whether it’s near you or if you do in online, is designed for two people who are honest, transparent. But when betrayal or deception happened, couple therapy sessions tend to shift in the wrong direction. Women describe:
feeling talked in circles
being treated as if both partners contributed equally
having their concerns minimized or reframed
leaving sessions with more confusion instead of clarity
Instead of addressing the real issue, his choices, his patterns, and his secrecy, therapy often redirects the focus onto “communication skills,” or “relationship dynamics.”
Meanwhile, the woman is still left without the one thing she needs most: Answers.
What You Need Before Looking For Couple Therapy Near Me
Before you sit in a room with a couples therapist near you and try to explain what’s been happening, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding:
what his behavior actually means
the signs that indicate whether therapy will help—or harm
That’s why I created the Clarity After Betrayal workshop.
It’s the resource over 200 women I interviewed told me they desperately needed before spending months or years in therapy that didn’t address the real problem.
The videos series helps you:
understand the patterns behind gaslighting and mixed messages
stop second-guessing what you’re experiencing
see your situation clearly, without anyone minimizing it
be confident about your next steps
If you’re trying to figure out whether couple therapy near me will help your marriage, the workshop is the essential first step.
Transcript: Considering Looking for Couples Therapy Near Me? What You Need To Know
Anne: I have a member of our community on today. We’re going to call her Ruby. Welcome, Ruby.
Ruby: Thank you, Anne. I feel privileged to be here and to help other women in my situation feel like they’re not alone.
Anne: Let’s start with your story.
Ruby: We met through a mutual friend who now completely sees what he is and feels devastated for me. He once told me he wanted to pursue someone else and realized I was easier to con.
Anne: Wow.
Ruby: Her parents were stable, and mine weren’t. She had an aware mother and a really good dad. For me, scripture influenced my choices in a way that made me believe I couldn’t leave my home unless I was married.
Anne: Looking back, you realize that wasn’t true?
Ruby: Correct. Technically I could have left, but heavy condemnation surrounded any thought of it. People insisted that leaving without being married “wouldn’t be of God.” We met when I was 19, and he used church language, God, and scripture to present himself as someone who wanted the same family life I wanted.
I thought I was choosing a righteous man. He acted fun, lively, and said all the right things. I had no reason then to imagine I might one day start searching for clarity or wondering if a couples therapist near me could help.
Early Red Flags Even Before Thinking About a Couples Therapist Near Me
Ruby: The long-distance relationship made his con easier because he controlled what I saw. He always said our time together was “time well spent.” That illusion made it harder for me to question things later.
Fourteen months later we married, and I became pregnant. He pressured me into premarital sex, something I never wanted because of my values. That pressure created shame that stayed with me for years.
Ruby: My family felt devastated, and people shunned me. He never carried any of that shame. That contrast should have warned me long before I ever wondered whether a couples therapist near me could help make sense of what was happening.
Anne: Many women describe that same pressure. They don’t recognize it as coercion until much later. The so-called “righteous man” eventually uses the shame against them for years.
Anne: Was that true for you?
Ruby: Yes. He used anything he could to break me down. He recognized my guilt and took advantage of it.
The Pattern of “Lucid Moments” That Created More Confusion
Ruby: Sometimes he had what I call lucid moments. Once he admitted our premarital sex was his fault. Weeks later, he denied ever saying it.
He always knew the truth, but he twisted it whenever it served him. Those moments confused me and made it harder to see the bigger pattern, something a couples therapist near me would likely misinterpret as miscommunication.
Anne: They sometimes drop a tiny bit of truth to manipulate. Then they pretend they never knew it.
Ruby: Exactly. He did that for years. He once told me the kids and I would be better off with another man, then denied it the next day.
His motives were calculated and passive-aggressive. He wanted me to look unstable.
Anne: Do you think he sometimes told the truth so you would be the one to take action and then he could blame you?
Ruby: Yes. He wanted me to feel responsible for everything while he stayed in control.
His Image vs. His Private Behavior
Ruby: Early on, he told me he’d been wild in the Navy but stopped drinking after waking up on a bathroom floor. That was fine with me because I wasn’t a partier. He wanted to look reformed.
He claimed he had never slept with anyone before, but then he hinted at inappropriate situations, like a coworker undressing in front of him. I believed him because he framed those stories as accidents instead of choices.
Later the military discharged him, and he tried to blame everyone else. Looking back, the pattern stood out clearly, and no couples therapist near me could have fixed a man committed to deception.
I don’t believe he was a virgin when we met. He used the idea of “we made this mistake together” to bind me to him. Now I see that as another lie.
Anne: That’s very likely.
Ruby: Yes.
What Ruby First Believed About the Problems in the Marriage
Anne: Let’s go back in time for a moment. What did you think the problems were back then? Did you believe he was stressed at work, overwhelmed, or dealing with normal marriage challenges?
Ruby: I thought the good outweighed the bad. He acted very family-oriented and talked about caring for his parents. So I assumed everyone had flaws, and as long as more things went right than wrong, we were okay.
Anne: Did you ever think it was your fault? Did you ever think, “If I do this better, maybe he won’t get upset”?
Ruby: During dating, no. He acted like the stable one and framed me as emotional or overly excited about things. He positioned himself as the grounding force in my life, someone steady.
Confusion Growing Before Ever Considering a Couples Therapist Near Me
Ruby: Looking back, he probably did things I couldn’t see, but he made it seem like he was strong and I was the one who needed correction. That dynamic made me less likely to question the confusion.
Anne: As the relationship progressed and you thought, “This is just his personality,” did you reach a point where you sought help? Did you consider counseling, clergy, or even looking up a couples therapist near me?
Ruby: Oh yes, absolutely. He’s adopted and has an adopted sibling, and he used that as an excuse to say counseling ruined him. He strongly insisted, “I don’t do counseling,” and blamed his parents for forcing him into it.
The First Attempts at Counseling and How They Failed
Ruby: I should have noticed the contradiction between how he presented himself as family-oriented and how he criticized his parents every day. He claimed I was “against them,” even though he constantly complained about them.
Our first counseling attempt went terribly. He resisted the idea from the start, and convincing him took a lot of energy. The couple leading the session didn’t have the skills to guide us.
They asked us to take compatibility tests, and I thought, “We’re already married. Why does that matter now?” Then they focused on our sex life, which felt intrusive and irrelevant. We ended up stopping because it helped nothing.
Many women don’t realize marriage counseling can actually worsen things, even before they search for a couples therapist near me. An abusive partner can twist counseling into another weapon.
He Finally Agreed to Counseling — And Used It Against Her
Ruby: When he finally agreed to counseling, he loved it because he controlled the narrative. He pretended to want help, but he shut down every real issue I raised. When I tried to talk about his behavior toward our son, he became angry and defensive.
When you go into counseling with someone who mistreats you, the counselor often assumes you’re dealing with ordinary “marriage problems.” They focus on communication or stress instead of harmful behavior. Their assumptions end up protecting him.
Anne: Exactly. They think you’re not communicating well or not having enough sex or that he needs anger management. They misidentify the entire issue right from the start, and once they do, the help becomes harmful.
Misdiagnosis and the Limits of a Couples Therapist Near Me
Anne: In my case, people assumed pornography addiction caused all the problems. That might have been part of it, but it wasn’t the thing destroying my marriage. Most therapists don’t recognize abuse even when you describe it clearly.
The average therapist misses the pattern, and even when they see pieces of it, they often don’t know how to respond. They default to generic couples therapy tools and say, “Let’s explore your childhoods” or “Let’s work on communication,” while the real issue continues unchecked.
You don’t know what’s actually happening, and the professionals you seek also don’t know. This happens constantly when a woman’s husband controls the narrative in therapy.
Ruby: Yes, exactly. They need to ask better questions.
Anne: That’s why I put together Clarity After Betrayal. So women could know what to expect before they schedule with a couples therapist near me. The workshop includes what more than 200 women told me they wish they had known. It’s only $27 and gives answers years faster (and much cheaper) than couples therapy.
Religious Messaging Made Ruby Think Couples Therapy Would Help
Ruby: I heard my mom say many times, “I made my commitment under God, to God, in my marriage, no matter what your dad does.” That belief created such heavy bondage for her, and it breaks my heart when I think about it now.
Anne: When I first started podcasting, I felt scared and confused and fought to keep my vows at all costs. I prayed, fasted, and hoped things would change because I didn’t want to disappoint God.
Now I feel the opposite because I believe God wants women to separate from evil and harm. Many women say God nudged them years earlier, but clergy gave them poor advice that kept them trapped. I hear that pattern again and again.
Ruby: I remember driving home and dreading walking through my own door. I took the kids everywhere because being alone with him created constant anxiety. Even errands felt safer.
Around that time, we also got a puppy, and the responsibility overwhelmed me. I kept praying for direction because nothing made sense, and I felt exhausted trying to hold everything together.
Then he left on his own. He packed his car two days before Father’s Day and didn’t try to hide it. I begged him to wait because the kids had made him gifts.
He looked at me and said, “I don’t need any more meaningless crap,” and drove away. At the end of that month, God spoke to me clearly and said, “Enough. You’re done. Let him go.”
Something inside me shifted immediately. It felt like God lifted him out of my heart. I finally felt space to breathe.
In the beginning, everything felt raw, and I couldn’t see beyond that moment. I had just started seeing the truth of what I lived through. I didn’t yet realize how much clarity would come later—long before a couples therapist near me could have helped.
For Women Who Feel Guilty About Couples Therapy Making Things Worse
Ruby: For any woman who feels condemnation, I want her to know this: you didn’t break your vow. Your husband’s choices broke the marriage. You still have value, dignity, and worth.
You’re not damaged goods in God’s eyes. You never were. I speak out to help women stop blaming themselves for harm they didn’t cause.
You’re not breaking up your family. His choices already did that. Pretending everything was fine only deepened the damage. Staying silent gave him protection, not me.
As he grew more volatile and irrational, I grew more afraid of doing the wrong thing. He trained me to manage his world so he didn’t have to regulate himself. I handled the home, the kids, and every detail.
Because I carried that load, he told others I acted controlling. That projection confused me for years. No couples therapist near me could have revealed those dynamics without seeing the truth behind closed doors.
The Social Backlash When Couples Therapy Fails
Ruby: I think many of us fear that people won’t understand and will condemn us for doing the right thing. A friend of mine was labeled a “husband basher” simply for describing her reality. Their mutual friends didn’t want that truth.
I knew she wasn’t bashing him. She was finally naming what harmed her. But when others feel invested in maintaining a certain image of him, they reject anything that disrupts their version of the story. They want to believe you just didn’t complete the therapist’s assignments.
Anne: Or they simply don’t believe you. They believe the man who lies and manipulates because it’s easier. It happens far too often and leaves women feeling isolated. This is so common when you are dealing with your abusive husband’s therapist.
Healing Without a Couples Therapist Near Me
Writing became a meaningful part of your healing process. It let you express your pain. Even though we aren’t sharing your writing today, I know it helped you see truths you couldn’t say out loud yet.
Ruby: It really did. Writing helped me turn pain into something I could see and understand. For years I felt split because I tried to serve two masters and live two different lives.
I tried to serve God while staying united with someone who wasn’t walking toward God at all. Nothing he did aligned with God. That realization revealed how much confusion I carried.
https://youtube.com/shorts/eTzRfKboinw
When separation happened, something settled inside me. For the first time in years, I felt aligned with God again. A couples therapist near me couldn’t have created that shift because it required honesty, not mediation.
How Women Can Get Education Before Trying Couples Therapy
Ruby: Women should ask themselves: Are you living with constant turmoil? Do you feel torn between serving God and staying united with your husband? That inner conflict signals something deeper.
The clarity journey is long and exhausting, but essential. Building community supports you through the confusion. Strong community helps you stay grounded when things feel heavy.
Anne: Thank you so much. Your story and courage will help so many women who feel alone. Your willingness to share matters.
Ruby: Thank you for having me. It has been my privilege.
Hope for Women Moving Forward
Ruby: The only thing I want women to know is this: don’t assume this is the end. Your life isn’t over, even if it feels that way.
Anne: It’s true. Beautiful and meaningful things still lie ahead, even when the path feels difficult.
Ruby: Thank you. And thank you for giving women a place to find real answers before spending years in couples therapy.
Counter Parenting: 6 Warning Signs Every Mother Needs to See
Jan 13, 2026
Counter parenting is one of the most overlooked forms of abuse, where one parent actively works against the other instead of with them. It undermines stability, confuses children, and normalizes emotional abuse in ways that often go unseen. In this episode, we talk about how to recognize counter parenting and why understanding it is vital for creating safety and freedom for you and your kids.
Six Truths About Counter Parenting Every Mom Needs To Know
1. Counter parenting looks harmless IN public, but it’s cruel IN private.
In public, it may sound like jokes. It may seem like teasing, but in private it cuts deep. What seems like humor or sympathy actually erodes a child’s respect for their mom.
2. counter parenting keeps you busy and confused.
He creates constant fires with the kids that keep you spinning your wheels so that you have to be involved and he can exploit you for parenting. You’re left doing the chores he forgot. Fixing problems he “didn’t know how to handle” or covering responsibilities he shrugs off. The chaos robs you of energy for real parenting and distracts you from the core issue, a pattern of deception and control.
3. counter parenting normalizes emotional abuse.
His anger issues or stress mask his manipulation. He uses secrets and favors to pull kids into his corner and create distance from you.
4. counter parenting grooms and isolates the protective parent.
I went through this. I was so stressful all the time. People thought it was my fault, and they distanced themselves from me. Which was very difficult. While redefining you as unstable, he love bombs the children with gifts, leniency, and special treatment to position himself as the fun one and undermine your authority. It’s important to know that healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in a community of women who truly understand what you’re going through. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are designed to offer just that.
5. The kids will figure it out sooner than you think.
Kids quickly learn who they feel safe with eventually they will come to know who they can count on.
6. if he’s a terrible husband, he can’t be a good father.
A man who lies and degrades women can never be a good dad.
If this list resonates with your experiences in your marriage, there is a strong possibility you may be facing emotional abuse. To learn effective strategies for protecting yourself, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
Transcript: Counter Parenting Hidden Truths You Should Know
Anne: I have A. S. King on today’s episode. I think you’ll resonate with her story, especially when we get to this part. Her latest book is called Pick The Lock.
Amy: I didn’t know this at the time, and I really know it now. One can’t be a terrible husband and a good father. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it.
Anne: So yes, our topic today is counter parenting.
A. S. King is incredible. The New York Times book Review called her one of the best YA writers working today. And is one of YA fiction’s most decorated. She’s the only two-time winner of the American Library Association’s Michael L. Prince Award. She won the LA Times book prize for Ask the Passengers. And in 2022, Amy received the ALA’s, Margaret A. Edwards Award for her lifetime achievement in YA literature.
So as you listen to Amy, you’ll hear each of those six things in her story. Welcome, Amy.
Amy: Thank you for having me, Anne. From the very beginning, I followed you on Instagram. I often link your graphics in my stories in Instagram. Your graphics are educational, when you will find yourself in a situation where there is abuse. It mattered so much to me, because I lived almost 30 years with abuse. I had this one book called Still Life with Tornado. It came out in 2016. A lot of recovery groups for women who have been through abuse use that one, specifically psychological and emotional abuse. Which of course is always present when any of the other stuff is there.
This year I just released a book called Pick the Lock, which is very close to, a lot of the things I’ve been dealing with. Before I finally divorced, and since.
The Silent Tyrant: The Subversive Tactics of the Counter Parent
Amy: Actually, the book for this year is all about what I found out about counter parenting. This is part of why I wanted to come here. I know that some listeners in that space I can help and fix this, and they’re stuck. Because I was stuck for 29 years. I believed so many things and I thought so many things. We all know hindsight’s 20-20. You learn life backward, right? That’s how it works. And what I learned in the last few years really taught me. That a huge part of the rest of my life will be trying to compassionately warn women and young women.
And that our levels of comfort and safety are actually incredibly important, even though society constantly tells us that they are not. Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you about why I love your work so much.
Anne: I’m so grateful that you reached out, and excited when artists, writers, use your unique talents to help other women. So as you’re considering teaching a generation of women through YA fiction about how to recognize abuse, what are some patterns that every woman needs to know regardless of their age?
Amy: One of the best things about writing fiction for me is that it’s not implicating somebody, even though it’s all true. It’s sort of, like showing the behaviors. And showing the reactions to the behaviors. In Still Life with Tornado, for example, the mother has a point of view part. So she speaks from her own point of view. But the father, he’s just that silent tyrant. Sort of that quiet abuse that’s really easy to get away with, because it’s quiet and it’s only aimed at disrespecting his wife in that book.
Treating you terribly in front of the children
Amy: Chad is always doing small things that are unhelpful and disruptive, but he thinks no one else can see it. Now from the point of view of the 16 year old daughter, she can absolutely see it. And in my own life, I was like, isn’t that interesting? I write books about how young people see abuse, recognize it, and harmed by it.
It’s not possible to do that. And while that seems unfair, he takes them to the movies. Yes, I understand he does all those things, but he also treats you terribly in front of your children, and behind your back is doing some form of counter parenting. And counter parenting is a term I only really just learned, and really understood that is what my life was made of.
And I didn’t know it, because it’s all done behind your back. That’s the whole point. Turning your kids against you without even you knowing it. Because you’re so busy trying to fix him and fix the situation, and get him back to the guy he was when you got married. Who didn’t exist, by the way. So for me, the pattern of the person being abused is what I’m focusing on, because there’s domestic violence in many of my novels, even my middle grade novels for younger readers.
Because that young person is in the house trying to help mom see it. And help mom escape. I guess I’m writing about my own mistakes. I’m looking at my own mistakes and saying, look, I’m putting this on the page so I can learn from it.
Counter Parenting in Action: Breaking What Matters Most to You
Amy: And I mean, Anne, I wrote a middle grade book called Attack of the Black Rectangles. It’s about censorship. and book banning. She still invites the ex-husband over for the sake of the child. She feeds him dinner once a week. And her father, the grandfather, lives in the basement. So it’s like an interesting kind of new family structure, and there’s this scene where the son is sitting at the table, the mom is doing some stuff in the kitchen, she’d been looking for this mug. It meant a lot to her, and she couldn’t find it anywhere.
She’d asked her dad, she’d asked the son. So then this ex-husband shows up and she says, “Oh, by the way, have you seen my mug?” And he says, “I smashed it.” The kid’s sitting right at the table, and the grandfather’s too. And she said, “Wait, you mean like it broke on the way out of the dishwasher?”
He goes, “No, I smashed it because I was angry.” And he kept that terrifying tone. It was interesting because when my editor read that, for some reason, that’s when he texted me and said, oh my gosh, the mug scene. And I wrote back to him, I’m like, that happened.
It’s the idea that we go, he has anger issues. Really? Did he smash his boss’s mug? No. Did he smash a stranger’s mug? No. He only smashed the things that were important to you. And in the end, he takes things from the house, and the only things he takes are things from the son and the ex-wife, so it’s these sort of things I don’t have any time for anymore.
Counter Parenting Disguised as Humor Normalizes Abuse
Amy: I don’t have any time for it, because I got free. It’s the best thing ever. I wake up every morning going, oh, putting my hands up like I just won a race every single morning, because I’m free. And it’s wonderful. So Pick the Lock came out and I’m a weirdo too, right? So I write weird stuff, but I also write trauma, specifically, because regardless of what kind of trauma I’m putting in there, I think weirdness really helps.
There’s an emotional currency in weirdness. Because when one has gone through trauma, you feel weird because the world’s like shhh, we don’t want to hear about that. “Why don’t you just solve that problem by yourself? Be cool, shhh.”
And that’s a terrible way to deal with trauma. That’s how we’ve been dealing with this, is most people are kids. Everybody’s like no, but don’t talk about that. I believe people should talk about their trauma. So in Pick the Lock, it’s really about the counter parenting I learned about after the divorce. I got to tell you the story about the guy at Target, classic counter parenting and totally acceptable in our culture. This is a real like old style Rodney Dangerfield almost kind of joke.
He’s got three girls. And he’s at the self checkout. The kids were probably at the most, the oldest was maybe nine and the others were pretty little, down to maybe four and he’s got the three girls there around the cart he gets some cash back.
And when he takes the cash out of the machine, he goes, “And you know who we won’t give this to. Who won’t we give this money to? We won’t give this money to Mommy because all she’s gonna do is spend it.”
YA character sees the abuse from a different perspective
Amy: That’s not what you tell your children. If you married to her, you have her back. That’s the whole point of a partnership. This is a huge type of psychological abuse and emotional abuse that people do to children. He thinks he’s being funny. But he’s not. That’s just mean and nasty. That’s a typical sort of everyday example of what counter parenting really is.
Anne: Because your books are YA and the main character is a young adult, they are seeing the abuse from a different perspective. How has that helped you process abuse? Than say, the wife of the abuser who maybe doesn’t realize what’s going on, or maybe she does and doesn’t know what to do. She’s resisting it by trying couple therapy, or she’s resisting by going to clergy, or she’s resisting in a way that’s not keeping her safe, it’s not keeping her kids safe. But it’s the best she can do, because she doesn’t understand what’s going on.
Amy: Like if I look back at now 35 years of my life, it’s more than half of my life. I’m 54. So like when I look back at that amount of time and look at how many things I was lied to about, holy cow! And now I’m starting to see the small stuff, like dumb stuff. Like, this is how we paint the thing, or this is how we clean brushes. It was like, no, that’s just what you think. It’s not actually the only way to do a thing. I had to answer a question recently on a college financial aid application.
Lying Is At The Core of Abuse and Counter Parenting
Amy: It asked, “Is the person remarried?” I was like, no, but I almost wanted to put a question mark behind that, because I’m not sure. And, “Does the person have other children?” I’m like unknown. He lied so much. I honestly wouldn’t know.
I would never intentionally hurt a person, would never take someone’s pain and use it against them. And I just listened to one of your episodes about forgiveness used against you. Some of the worst things that ever happened to me, of course, I shared those with my spouse. When you share that with a person, you expect them to keep that private for you, the way you keep things private for them.
I got a lot of interesting messages in the last few years. A few of them were from women that had worked with him. They knew what they thought were secrets about me. They were lies, They weren’t secrets. He made up secrets based on the terrible things that happened to me. And told people that’s what I liked.
He actually tried to pick up women by saying that I liked these weird things. And he just couldn’t do those weird things. It was like, wow, not only is that wrong, but when you share with somebody that you have been sexually assaulted or raped. And then they turn around and use that to pick up women at work. Then gets let go for serial sexual harassment. He’s a mess, just a walking, lying mess.
Anne: The lying is the most important part of counter parenting.
Lying is emotional and psychological abuse
Anne: Determine if his character is a liar, which is an abuser, because lying is emotional and psychological abuse. You can’t process the information if you don’t have that baseline understanding. But once you realize that, everything changes. A woman might say to me, his therapist told him that I probably suffer from childhood trauma. And I always want to ask, who told you his therapist said that? Because he could literally not have gone to therapy at all.
Amy: Correct.
Anne: Not even have a therapist and tell you that his therapist said that, and he’s never even been to therapy. Or he could go to therapy and the therapist didn’t say that, but he chooses to say that when he gets home. This could apply to clergy. It could apply to his mom. It could apply to the neighbor. “Hey, this neighbor said this about you.” And so you’re thinking, wow, this is what the neighbor said when the neighbor never said it, or a billion other possibilities. But knowing that he’s a liar is the key to unlock all of it including counter parenting.
How Counter Parenting Shows He Never Wanted to Make the Relationship Work
Amy: It’s huge, that’s the key to the lock. And once you realize you can’t even answer basic questions. Because when you learn about the weird throwaway lies. And you learn about all these different lies. You realize, did he ever tell the truth? For me, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I’m just like, well, you know, childhood stuff or this or that. And eventually, my son turned to me and said, “Will you keep making excuses for him your whole life?” And I was like, no, I’m not going to keep making excuses.
But I did because I wanted everything to continue working out as best as it could. Which of course it never did. Because you know what? I was the only one wanting it. and doing the stuff required for something to work out for the best. But then once I started learning all these different things he was like, I must have a mental illness. I said, go and talk to your doctor or go to therapy. And then he said, “I have this mental illness.” You must take care of me. And so I did that. I remember being in a car in some strange place at a conference for publishing.
And my editor in the back of the car said, “I don’t know why you stay with this person.” Knowing the stories I had told over the years. I was always late on deadlines. Oh, life was so complicated, they keep you busy so that you can’t do anything. You can’t even think. So I’m in this car, and I say, listen, if he had MS, or if he got diagnosed with a physical illness, would I leave him?
He lied about mental illness
No, I would stay with him. He has this illness. Then once things were over, my ex-husband and I had a conversation, and he laughed at me and said, “I never had a mental illness.”
I said, “Well, you told the kids for 10 years that you had a mental illness. You told all of us.”
And he went, “Yeah, I never had that.”
I said, “Then why are you so abusive?”
And he actually said, “It’s just because I’m an a-hole.”
And I just left it at that. But then over the years, I’m like, hold it. The reason the house is in my name is because it’s my house, It was like, “Oh, you have to put my name in the mortgage because, I have this illness and that means I have a fear of this. And you have to put it there.”
And then I look all the different things that I was coerced into doing based on this lie.
Anne: Yeah, because of his lie.
Amy: It’s incredible. At the very end, it was like, “I have an addiction now too.” And I’m like, “Once you come out of rehab, then you go and find a halfway house.”
“You can’t put me in a halfway house. I have to come home.” Really!? The keeping you busy, the keeping you worried, the keeping you hypervigilant, the keeping you just edgy all the time is part of the trick!
Anne: It is, yeah.
Amy: It’s the whole thing!
Anne: Trying to figure out what’s wrong and how you can help them is the trick with abusers.
Amy: Absolutely.
What to Do When The Counter Parent Uses Truth to Keep You Stuck
Anne: It’s every part of it. You’ve probably heard me talk about the Living Free Workshop. I keep talking about it, because it’s how women can take a step back and notice these are just shadows. This is not reality, because abuse and counter parenting is a character issue. Even if they’re telling the truth it’s on purpose to achieve a goal. Not because they care about you.
Amy: It’s all a scheme.
Anne: Exactly, so, when someone says to me, “At that point, he finally told me he had an affair.” Or at that point, he finally told me he was addicted to drugs. I’m like, he may have told you the truth, but it wasn’t the whole truth. And then why then? What benefit did it have for him at that moment?
Amy: Correct, there was a moment at that 10 year mark. I had just come back from a writer’s thing. I did my laundry, exactly what I needed for four days sat there folded next to a suitcase. SoI went upstairs and put it in the suitcase, because the kids had gone to bed and came back downstairs.
I said, “I’m going to leave. I’m going to stay in a hotel tonight. I’ll be back for the kids tomorrow.” If I could go back in time. Anne, there are many times from many years before then I could have gone, but if I could go back in time, that’d be the night.
But what happened was the talk happened. And I said, “You’re saying the same stuff as you always say. Unless you have something new to say.”
False Mental illness as an excuse
Amy: And that’s when he hooked me in with, I really need to take care of him. Even more than I’d already done. But it was convenient. Like you said, “Why right then is he saying that? There’s a reason, and it’s usually to keep you there.” That’s it, period. Also because he’s called you a liar so many times. And once you’re gaslit for 28 years, you’re so hyper vigilant about telling the truth that you will tell the whole story, including every single detail. I do it all the time, drives me nuts.
You’ll still believe the things that they say. I’m a few years divorced. And, I actually had 7 strokes in about 26 hours.
Anne: Wow.
Amy: I’m fine. I went to my physical therapy, I I got my right side back, everything works.
Anne: I’m so glad you’re okay.
Amy: I’m still a little weak, and I still use the cane if I’m feeling extra tired. But anyway, I’m fine. So because I’m a writer and artist. I have a beautiful group of colleagues and friends in the business. And also I’m a hundred percent self employed. It’s check to check. I don’t know how I do it, but when news went out that I had a stroke and they knew I was in the hospital, one of my friends started a GoFundMe. To fund the few months for recovery, and go to physical therapy, and learn how to use my right side again and balance. Same time, I was planning a few things for the summer.
Experiencing financial abuse from counter parenting
Amy: My son and I were going to go to Europe. Once I was on the meds and my second checkup. I had said to the doc, “Is this dangerous or is this smart?”
They’re like, “No, you’re good. You can do that. So we had to let Dad, know. And magically, about two weeks later, I got a child support review. And I’m like, that’s some pretty bad timing. He knows I’m going to be in Europe. He’s said, no, this is just because I don’t want to get into arrears. And I said, “Oh, how big was the raise you got?” And it wasn’t much. I really thought that he didn’t want to get into arrears until the phone call three months later. And he says something about the GoFundMe money.
Anne: Ohhh!.
Amy: It had nothing to do with his arrears. Let me get this straight. I’m 100 percent raising your child. Your wages are minimally garnished. Believe me, there were no lawyers involved in this. This is literally the minimum. And I am definitely paying, especially this year. Senior year, you’re paying so much more, but you came after the money my friends collected for me after I had a stroke and continued to raise your child. That is counter parenting.
Anne: Yup.
Amy: Like he had to help me get in and out of the car and you’re trying to take the little money we have. What is the issue? But by then I already knew. I knew this was a liar. But it still I swear it took me another two months.
Abusers always have a goal
Amy: One day I was just sitting here going, that’s why he brought that up. Now in hindsight, I can tell the story the way I just did. But in the middle, between the phone call hearing and two months after, I’ve been like, it was really weird. He asked about this, I can’t believe he asked about this.I’m like, girl, that is why he did it in the first place. What is it about you that believes people all the time? And it’s because I am a nice person. It’s that simple.
Anne: Because they always have a goal, and you don’t know what that goal is.
Amy: Right, it’s the scheme again.
Anne: It’s so impossible, you’re not ever doing anything wrong. You’re just being a normal person.
Amy: Keeping the house together, keeping the kids fed. I was pretty much the breadwinner for all those years. With the travel and just having to work all the time. He had more time to be with the kids to do his counter parenting. I have journals and wow, some of the things I wrote down. I look at it now and I’m like, wow, I believed that when I wrote it and that wasn’t true.
The biggest thing I learned is how it is a mindset, how if someone’s always scheming, they’re always going to be scheming. It doesn’t matter whether they’re in the supermarket and they are shoplifting or if they are, getting a job but they’re lying about their past. If they’re trying to figure out how to fake a vaccination that they didn’t get so that they can go to work, or whatever the heck it is.
We are safe now
Amy: Like, it’s always a scheme. It’s just how their brains work.
Anne: Yeah, and they’ll scheme about things they don’t even need to scheme about.
Amy: Exactly, and it gets worse. That was the one thing I didn’t understand. There’s so many things I love when you put your messaging out on Instagram and other places. When you say things like, “Once you figure out that you’re being abused, don’t tell the abuser he’s an abuser.” That is the best advice ever because you know what I did?
I loaned, Why Does He Do That to my abuser. And then he learned more tricks. That’s all he learned from that book. It’s only going to get worse. We used to have a thing because of that book. I’m like, are you a 4% er or are you not a 4% er? I want to be a 4% er. I have texts and screenshots. While he was forcibly kissing so and so. Now I know what he was doing at that time, he will use all that stuff against you. He’s digging a hole or painting himself into a corner. But of course, he’s getting me to talk to him. So his digging is effective.
I’m still talking to him about how he should or shouldn’t dig or paint himself into a corner and kind of going, Oh, you paint yourself into a corner. Instead of…
Anne: Safety,
Amy: Safety, exactly, yes. Thank you. Yes, exactly. That is why when I wake up in the morning, I do put my arms up and I’m like, yes! Every time because we are safe now.
Realizing I can’t do it anymore with counter parenting
Amy: This is a person who, at times said certain things like, “I know why you’re terrified of me. I wasn’t going to kill you, kill you. I was hoping you’d do me the favor.”
Anne: What?
Amy: And you’re there like, wow. And he teamed up with other people. He looked for allies in his hatred for me. This is weird story but here you go. I lived in a farm in Ireland a long time and rats do a thing that mice don’t do. If a rat is caught in a trap, his family friends will pull that trap down into the hole and have him for dinner. And that’s kind of how I feel about the whole thing of counter parenting.
That’s what you’re dealing with. But you’re like, I’m not dealing with that. This is a nice guy, the guy that loves me. But where is he showing it? I remember the day I realized like, Ooh. I can’t do this anymore. My mom and dad had just had their 60th anniversary.
They both came from interesting backgrounds, but they did make it work. And, my father’s taking care of my mom while she’s in a bad state. Looking at what love really looks like, I couldn’t get sick, I’m sure there are people nodding right now. I wasn’t allowed to get sick. If I got sick, I was in trouble. It wasn’t that real overt stuff. It was always covert, it was always a little bit snide a little side eye. And looking at my dad love my mom so much.
Finding out what really happened
Amy: It’s amazing. But I remember when they hit their 60th and my mom was talking to me. And I’m like, Oh I can’t get to 60, I can’t. I got out of there at 29, it just keeps getting worse and the lies get worse. And then, after, you walk away and find safety, you will learn a lot more about what really happened when you thought it was something else. Don’t feel foolish. It’s not your fault.
Anne: Totally, with counter parenting.
Amy: You didn’t do anything wrong. All you did was trust a person. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Anne: Can you talk about where you were when you started writing Pick the Lock? Like your mindset, the process you went through to write it?
Amy: Like any other book, it starts way earlier than when the actual writing starts. It started with a post-it note, “If you can imagine like a zigzag, you could imagine a hamster tube with two 45 degree bends. At one of those bends, there was a chair, and then it just said “system”. I made that post-it note when I realized, thanks to my kids being open with me. And talking to me about the things their father told them about me.
I thought my narrative and who I was in my life was clear. But I didn’t realize that while I was in the kitchen, they could be pulled aside in the room right next to the kitchen and told terrible lies about me. And so they had to deal with that. Many, women are like, “Well, he’s a terrible husband, but he’s a great father.”
Poisoning and redefining my family
Amy: And I will say again, those two things cannot coexist. Because that person is cruelly treating their mother in front of them. You, you can’t keep these things from the children. It’s not a woman’s fault to stay and try and try and try ’cause that’s what we do. People tell us to try. In reality, those kids know what’s going on. Then they’re sometimes extra confused. Because so often this is how counter parenting happens. I did not know how common it was until I started talking about it with people, groups, and other women. It turns out that this is something that’s quite common.
So I wanted to write about it. Because that little hamster tube with the chair in it was me. It was the narrative. A visual representation of what it was like to not control my own narrative, even though I literally lived it. Like show, don’t tell, which is a real writing thing. You show, you don’t tell. So I lived it and showed it. I was the breadwinner. I was doing all these great things for my family. But while I was gone doing those great things to be able to feed my family. Someone who really wanted control and power over that narrative redefined my family.
Anne: Almost poisoned.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. When you lie, when you lie to a child, I don’t care what it’s about. When you lie to a child for your own gain. That’s a certain kind of poison, no doubt.
counter parenting: The Book is told through a 16 year old’s viewpoint
Anne: Yeah, so I wanna talk about the book, without giving too much away. So I’ll only talk about what happened in the beginning, the motifs or symbolism. I think the tube situation is obvious, the symbolism there where you are separated and isolated, even though you’re still in the same home.
Amy: Correct, you’re right there in the same room. You eat dinner with your family, but he isolates you through counter parenting. Absolutely, that’s part of it too, right? So it’s weird, those tubes represented so many things. This happens with books when you’re a writer. The longer you’re away from a book, the more you see in it. You’re like, oh, wow! I basically personified the patriarchy and then drowned it. That was satisfying. If only it was that easy in real life. The story starts with Jane, the story is told through a 16-year-old daughter’s point of view.
And Jane has just discovered she calls them home movies. But it’s really security footage from inside her home for the last 20 years. It’s long before she was born. That’s when she starts seeing everything she heard about her family. Or even the person telling her, her father, everything she ever knew about her family was a lie.
And she’s furious as anyone would be. I think that also represents what a lot of us go through once we separate and divorce or we walk away from somebody who’s been abusive. I honestly only yesterday, found out a new tidbit. It just keeps happening.
She finds out the truth
Amy: Anyway, Jane has access to a cloud. Where all these movies are, and the more movies she watches, she has to do what we all do. She has to question her memories. She’s like, Ooh, I know I was four when this one counter parenting thing happened.
Or I know, I was this age when this one thing happened. And she’s going through that years’ footage and those particular rooms, ’cause there’s, four or five cameras that she’s aware of. She’s trying to find these memories she has. And she can’t find them or she finds partial ones, or most importantly, she keeps finding new ones that she doesn’t have as memories, but now they’re right there in front of her.
And it really explains her parents’ relationship. It explains everything she blamed her mom for, because that’s what she was told to do. And encouraged to do. It shows the truth. The idea of people not believing you, and of doubting your own memories and all those things. It’s such a big deal. Over the decades I’ve been publishing, people will say, “Why do you write for teenagers?”
And I’m like, “They’re not taken seriously.” So as a woman in this society, I can tell you that I have a lot in common with teenagers. I’m a woman. The story then goes on, her mother is in these tubes in the house. You nailed it. You can be at a table, and we know that we’re somehow not part of this family. And yet, we made this family. And we’re not welcome. I always felt unwelcome, I guess is a good way to put it.
Women help other people before we help ourselves
Amy: I was told so many things about how unlovable I was. And a lot of the lines said to Jane are verbatim, actually five of my journals. You’re so impossible to love. I think it’s important that we put it right out in the open. Because again, once I start talking about it, the amount of people that are like, “Oh yeah, that happened to me,”
And it’s kind of wild, and it’s time to talk about it. But then I also think the tubes represent the thing that women do when we are in strife. We usually help other people. We help other people before we help ourselves. At least I know that’s true for me, and probably true for most of the women I know. But more importantly, we can take a prison and turn it into some kind of a win. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it. Take a controlled environment, and we can make a win out of it as long as we work together.
Women are the most willing caretakers of the patriarchy.
Anne: Yeah, without us, it wouldn’t even exist.
Amy: Correct, if we didn’t follow all the rules and if we weren’t pitted against each other. If we weren’t, trying to win the popularity contest at our places of choice, whether that be a church, just the neighborhood, in the family. I remember that at one point in my family, we have a few cousins and siblings. And I remember one of them going, “Well, you know, I did this first, I got married first.” What is that about? I got married first. What is it?
Upholding an opressive system with counter parenting
Amy: What is, I have to have the baby first? I remember someone saying, “She kind of pressured me because she had to have a baby, right then.” And I’m like, why? But this is all patriarchy, this is all controlled. They have us pitted, and it’s the exact same.
We have a larger model in the country of pitting. You pit people who are at the bottom against each other, and you can do whatever you want at the top. And that’s what we’re talking about inside a house and inside a culture.
Anne: I think it’s important to point out that people back women into this corner. I really believe they’re trying to survive. And because they don’t know of any other way to survive, they don’t have the words for it. They don’t have the way to process the abuse and counter parenting. They are trying to succeed in the best way in the environment they are aware of. So it’s not like they’re not on their own side. It’s just that because they’re living in a house of mirrors or tubes or whatever metaphor we wanna use. Like, “I’m gonna be the best brownie maker here.”
Because that’s the only world they have. So they uphold what they don’t know is a system oppressing them, but at least they are trying to succeed in that space. So giving women credit for how powerful and ingenious they are when they don’t know what’s going on, I think, is important. Because once they hopefully can wrap their heads around what is actually happening, I think that helps them say, whoa. whoa, whoa. If you need support from other women who have been through it, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.
Interpreting the book
Anne: What I’ve been doing actually has not been for me, I’ve been exploited. And dealt with counter parenting. I love the quote from Maya Angelou, where she says, “Of course I’m a feminist. I’m a woman. Why would I not be on my own side?” I’m paraphrasing. I wanna talk about the symbolism of this Victorian home, because that was interesting to me. The juxtaposition between a Victorian home and all this Victorian furniture representing the past, I’m guessing. That’s another thing I love about literature. Even though you’re the author, I could have my own interpretation.
Amy: That is the whole point. Once it leaves my desk, it’s up to you. And that is, you have to let go of the ownership. I actually just did a commencement speech at an art school on Friday, and I said, “What a relief. Once it’s on someone else’s wall, it’s not your business anymore.”
They may say, “Oh, I’d love this painting of raindrops.” And it’s absolutely about the worst night of your life, but you can’t tell them that. They think it’s raindrops, who cares? But you’re right, it’s open interpretation.
Anne: I did wanna talk to you about this part ’cause I had interpreted it this way and I’m very anxious and curious to hear what your thoughts are. But representing the past and this mother, whose vocation is rock star. She is popular culture. She’s a feminist. She fights against oppression, living every day. So this juxtaposition of this woman who is, I guess to the masses, someone who, and I’m seeing this in you a little bit. That this is, because you were kind of living this life.
Juxtaposition of rock star and victorian home
Anne: Where you’re talking about feminism and trying to help women out while you’re living in an abusive relationship, but you didn’t know that you were. So I can definitely see the parallels there. But just having talked to you, I was like…
Amy: Well, I don’t mind.
Anne: Oh my word. I can see all this. But that was so fascinating to me, that juxtaposition between this woman who’s a rock star, who’s living in this Victorian home, and basically siloed there and silenced. Because of counter parenting and abuse.
Amy: Okay. So the first thing you have to understand, Anne, is that I am a bit of a weirdo. I write books using the surrealist method, meaning I don’t know what the book is about until I start writing. Jane, the main character, she will show me the way.
And that’s how it works. I have to follow her. So when suddenly there’s a rat talking in first person, I’m like, well, I suppose we’ll figure out who this rat is. We just move forward and hope to God we know. I had an idea of who the rat was. So it’s not like I’m going into it completely blindfolded, because as you write, you figure out what the book is about.
But in the case of the Victorian thing, every time I tried to open this book, I tried the opening about three or four times, maybe more. And Jane had her name pretty early. And she kept coming out with this sort of twee proper Victorian voice. I was like, what is up with this? Like, this is not my voice. Usually I’m not that voice. And then one day, I explain the world explaining the writing process to people of all ages.
Counter parenting: Metaphor of the tubes
Amy: And I always say, ” Use your own anger. Anger is a big one. Use your sadness too. Sure, use your happiness, use your joy, use all those things. But something was said to me about God knows something. And if you’ve read the prologue?
Anne: I have. Yeah. It was so good. I loved it.
Amy: You’ll understand that, God knows, is a punch in the teeth. Because when you have someone say to you, who has no business saying what God knows. I’m sorry, regardless of my religion or any of that, like, God is a large, beautiful, wonderful, universal thing. No, you won’t, get that word outta your mouth. And so, I was angry, and I wrote four really bad poems.
Then I was like, Ooh, and open up the file and just went. And that’s when Jane started. That’s when that formed. But more importantly. I could see Vernon, Jane’s father, in my mind’s eye, and I could see him with a pocket watch. He’s a fake, he’s a phony. And the mother inherited the Victorian house.
And so it’s her family home and the tubes were already in it, you see? Because a generation before her, that man controlled his wife in that home. And then after he died, she got to hang out in that house with that woman. Never thinking she would be put into the tubes. And actually, that’s one of the things that Jane realizes too, at 16, oh crap, I’m next. So really it’s those tubes are a metaphor for so many things in counter parenting.
everything was perfect from the outside
Amy: It really is being a woman trapped in the patriarchy. But I chose Victorian because it seemed perfect. It’s a perfect place to hide bad habits, because it’s so luscious. It’s got velvet curtains, beautiful style, big roomy rooms and high ceilings, and everything’s so proper. They serve dinner at the dining table, and they have a cook. It’s all these things that are so proper. It seemed the perfect setting. And doesn’t it from the outside? Always, The amount of people that have said to me, but I thought everything was perfect.
Yes, that’s because I was covering and trying so hard. But no, it wasn’t perfect. And there’s that second home movie. Where he’s being so overly, we’re just gonna use the word love bombing. Because listeners will know what that means, but he is just being so overly like saccharine and sugary and laying it on so thick. And Jane, the narrator, has to say, you may think this man in this scene is taking place a hundred years ago. But actually, Mina’s in a pair of ripped up jeans and a ripped up t-shirt. It’s just this interesting way that he acts to hide everything, including himself.
Anne: I loved how you portrayed him as shorter. And I did not get the impression he was like crazy attractive. I liked that about it. To me, it really spoke to how sneaky they are, I wanna say, they seem like such good, ordinary people. And that I found very compelling.
Amy: That’s the point. I’m glad that came through the counter parenting. That makes me happy to hear.
Finding all the Lies
Amy: Because that is again, we go back to those home movies, we go back to this young woman who’s 16 and everything, she believes. And when in the home movies, she also shows how terrible she was based on this influence. So she treated her mom like garbage a lot. And she feels terrible for it, but at the time she thought she was absolutely doing the right thing. Because she was told, “Your mother doesn’t love you. Your mother wants to kill you. Your mother wants all these things.” And of course, she thinks, “Well screw her.” And she’s treating her in these ways, and now she’s finding it was bull all along.
Anne: So it’s interesting that you describe the Victorian home as perfect. And I was, of course, layering my own experience onto what I read and how I interpret it. But in my mind, it was very dusty. There was too much stuff. Like an arrangement of dried flowers, for example. Or the curtains were just very heavy. Everything felt very oppressive to me. ‘Cause as I read it, I was getting kind of anxiety every time it was described. I just thought, oh, this place is stifling and suffocating.
Amy: That’s perfect. It’s still decorated in Victorian, except I see the kitchen as modern in my head. I think it’s a perfect juxtaposition with this large plexiglass tube in the corner. And the fact that there’s a woman in there. And if you really think about what that represents, especially in Jane’s world. Where, she for years looked over there and was so angry at this woman. Because of all these lies she was told about her.
counter parenting: Children and divorce
Amy: Then when she realizes she’s been lied to, then she’s terrified she’s gonna be the next person. I think that is a metaphor that spans many different types of fears that happen inside of young people’s heads when they’re in that space. I just got off of a different interview, and I was talking about this moment. My son came home one time and talked about what it’s like to be children of divorced parents. And then he said, “Well, then there’s the other group.” And I’m like, oh, “What’s the other group?” He said, “Children of parents who should be divorced.”
And he goes, “I remember being in that group, and I’m glad I’m in this group now.” He was probably 14 or so when he said that, he is like, “’cause that group is sadder. They’re more scared. They’re in a space where everything’s still some kind of limbo. At least here there’s been some type of closure.”
It’s quite a powerful conversation to have with a young person who’s that self-aware. And also that aware of their surroundings and counter parenting. I know there’s obviously children of fantastic families, that everything’s functioning correctly. I don’t wanna only categorize the two, but that’s how he did. And teenagers often go very black and white. And that’s what he said. I found it interesting that they truly have these conversations. Gen Z is so smart.
And they are very aware. Children are incredibly resilient. The biggest fear I had once I had children was, children have to have two parents. And that’s what I was told many times. That this is the way it works.
A child needs one solid parent
Amy: And then more than one person has said to me, no, no, a child needs one solid parent. And they’re gonna be okay. Hearing that over and over again, and knowing that I’m solid. I’m not here looking to have relationships right now. I have to parent, that is my job.
Anne: In that way, I didn’t think of it until you were just describing this, but that Victorian setting also kind of represents a level of maturity that a child can gain from this environment.
Amy: Oh yes, the parentification, absolutely.
Anne: It’s like an old wisdom that they’ll have, wisdom beyond their years, that kind of a thing.
Amy: Yep, and not the kind you want them to have, but it’s sadly what they get. Both my kids, wise beyond their years. Because, part of their childhood never happened. Because they were so busy listening for footfalls and whether they were angry, footfalls. Whether they were sneaky counter parenting footfalls, they were so busy trying to figure out, is this person walking up or down the steps? Going to do something erratic? And on the other side, looking at mom being like, what’s gonna be her excuse today? And it sounds harsh, I know that, but it’s also very real. Kids are honest.
As much we peg them as liars, same as women. We go back to what I have in common with teenagers. In actual fact, I think that everyone’s closest to the truth. Outta the mouth, the babes we say. I remember the first time I sat the kids down and said, “There’s gonna be a separation.”
We need to give children credit
Amy: And my eldest said, “Oh God, I’ve been waiting for this since I was seven.” And I just thought, “Oh my gosh, take note of that. Take note of the guts it took to say that out loud, at that time.” Which have been considered inappropriate, but not really. This is, however old she was at the time, 13-year-old or something. So the first thing I think we have to discuss when it comes to young people is that A, we don’t give them a lot of credit. It’s one of the reasons I’m a fierce advocate for teenagers. With counter parenting going on.
We take things away from them versus giving them credit. But more importantly, we would have maybe taken a comment like that out of context and said, classic dramatic thing for a teenager to say. But in actual fact, she was serious. She saw things since she was seven that made her go, this isn’t cool.
She was getting pulled aside and having things said to her about me, but I didn’t know that then. And I don’t know what else. When you’re in it, you can’t figure out what to do, especially because it is so confusing.
You’re so confused, mostly because this person is looking at you, saying, no, I really am that guy that I was. And then it acts differently, or I really do love you, but then does something fiercely not loving. So it’s just constant confusion, because you’re trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense. And the reason it doesn’t make sense is because they’re lies. That’s why, because you’re being lied to.
Anne: A hundred percent.
counter parenting with secrets
Amy: It’s kind of amazing when we look at children and how unbelievably mature they are. And that Victorian setting and what eventually we learn happens to the little brother. I haven’t mentioned Henry yet. Since we have listeners who have not read this book, little brothers named Henry. He’s a few years younger than Jane. And Henry, because it’s Victorian times. He’s treated well because he’s a boy, isn’t he?
And he’s Vernon’s boy, but he is not given the secrets. So this is another part of what we’re talking about when it comes to counter parenting. We’ve got the parent who’s in control of the family. Who’s like, “I’ll let you in on a secret.” So that’s where the lies come to. “Let me tell you about your mother. Lemme tell you about this stuff, or these stories.”
But more importantly, they’re let in on things that they shouldn’t be let in on too early. So whether it be, Hey, have a sip of my beer. Or do you wanna toke off this joint, or do you wanna try cigarettes or whatever it is. I don’t have another word for it, that’s just grooming.
That happens so often in families like ours. Where it’s just, grooming is to get control period, that’s the point. It’s not there to get someone to think for themselves. Because an author for young people whose books have been banned. that word is thrown at me, and I’m like, “Listen, I write the book to help kids see themselves in books.” That’s it. And to talk about the truth. But that word is thrown at me. I’m not trying to control anybody.
finding solutions
Amy: But when someone tells me what my kids can read, oddly enough, that’s you trying to control somebody. And that’s what grooming is for. Henry, is, very obviously groomed by his father, and is the favorite simply because he’s a boy, but is also very openly neglected. And is a tragedy in the making really, with counter parenting. I see him doing okay once the bad influence is out of the house and away from him.
But what that man did, it’s the collateral damage. It’s the stray bullet. He may be aiming at the women in the house, right? Because he hates women. We need to get down to the fact that so many men hate women. If they don’t face it, talk about it and correct it in a way that makes them somehow compatible with women. They’re gonna ruin the women that they’re with.
Anne: Well, it’s bad for everyone. It’s not just bad for women. It’s really bad for them too, because that’s 50% of the population that they don’t take seriously.
Amy: There’s that. And if we get into the patriarchy, the men suffer. I don’t wanna say they suffer more from it, but we’re really used to it. So women are really used to it. We’re like, “Yeah, I know my place. I know they’re gonna tell me what to do. They’re gonna take away my healthcare. I know they’re gonna do these things to try and control me.” And we tend to find great ways through. We figure out how to get around these things so that we can continue going to college. We find solutions.
Handling patriarchy
Amy: As people who raise whole families while also doing 12 other things. We all know we’re the problem solvers.
Anne: Also from behind the scenes, we’re solving all the problems, just not getting the credit for it.
Amy: Correct, I don’t wanna say we can handle the patriarchy, but we’ve lived in it so long. Men on the other hand, fare terribly from the patriarchy. The lies they’re told from the beginning of time limit them so much. I met a young man recently, and he was very distraught, upset. I said, “Hey, yo, what’s going on?” He started to cry.
He said, “My father told me that I’m if I cry.” And I was like, “Well, your father was wrong. You can cry. Here’s a tissue.” Gave him a big hug. And he really couldn’t tell me what was wrong with him without putting himself down at least 20 times, just for having emotions. And I thought, he’s 30. This human being can’t process grief, which was legitimate at that moment, without hurting himself, because the men in his life and culture told him all the wrong things. Along with counter parenting.
In books, I put a scene there, where boys list who they wanna kiss. And it’s a secret list. And then they run up to them and kiss ’em without permission to runaway. Now, I was kid in the seventies. This happened all the time, happened to my kids. My kids both got, same thing. Boy runs up to him, bam, kisses them. Maybe it’s a dare. This stuff comes early in life. If some second grader is running toward my child to kiss my child because he likes her, someone missed an opportunity to tell their child that’s not what happens.
counter parenting: Loneliness epidemic
Amy: You don’t do that. But this is what the culture is. And especially once she has your babies, you own her. She has to do what you say and act the way you want. If every five minutes what you want changes is she somehow has to keep up with that. I felt like I was tap dancing for three decades. We get these headlines about the male loneliness epidemic. Or what you believe women owe you. I’m like, no offense, but maybe if you’d stop being terrible.
Anne: Yeah sorry, I can’t stand those articles. And with counter parenting, I’m like, what in the world is happening?
Amy: I’d like to ask, a bunch of married women if there’s a loneliness epidemic for married women. There’s an epidemic for you. There’s been centuries of married women who are lonelier than ever. Maybe if men looked after that, maybe if that was written about. Men would go, “Oh.” But they wouldn’t, because the culture tells them to go phffft.
And then women say anything. It’s all a trap, and we’re all trapped in it. Every single one of us, every woman, man, child, everybody, every person is trapped in it. It’s a construct. And this is one of the reasons I live in a little artist’s bubble.
Anne: Speaking of the prologue, hit me really hard. Because the book that I’m writing is all about lies. I know I talk about how pornography is abusive but it really does, and my whole book is about this, come down to the lies.
Lies on top of lies
Anne: Because if they didn’t lie, then he would say, “Hi, I am only interested in you because you have this Victorian home that has these tubes, and I know that if I marry you, I can use you for all this and I can stick you in one of them. So you seem like the perfect wife for me.”
Amy: Yes.
Anne: “Do you wanna marry me?” That would be the truth. And then she could say, “No, I don’t.” But the whole thing is built on lies, lies on top of lies. In my book, I say this one part, “Let’s just talk about pornography without the lies. Because they lie to us about porn or their affairs or other things that they’re lying to us about. Then I’m like, wait, the whole pornography industry is a lie.
There are so many layers of lies on top of lies. And without the lies, we could give consent. Some women might choose that, but so many women would be like, “I don’t want to marry you. If you have a mistress that you live with in an apartment.”
Amy: Anne, I need to tell you, it was your Instagram that made me understand informed consent in such a great way. And it really changed my mind about what I’d been living through. And realizing how many women are lied to, but also having sexual relationships with people who are lying to them.
Therefore, they are not informed, so that consent is null. And in the future, when they learn about the lies, all of those experiences are going to have a different flavor.
Told the truth from the beginning
Amy: And it will feel exactly what it felt at the time, but you couldn’t say it out loud.
Anne: Right, it felt like that, but because you didn’t understand what was happening. You defined it the best way that you could. Maybe you put a silver lining on it. Maybe you explained this is how it works because you had no other way to process it. So in your processing it to empower yourself, which was your intention, it just played into the lies without you knowing. Which is so unfortunate, but that’s their intent. That’s what they want.
Amy: Absolutely, the lie is everything. And that’s why the book starts with the lies. The older I get, the more I realize this. And I remember hitting my forties and going, oh, and now I’m in my fifties. I’m like, oh, this doesn’t end. Everything’s about the lies that we’re taught. And on a larger level in the culture in our families, before we get into a relationship, and then inside the relationship with counter parenting.
But I love how you said if they just told the truth from the beginning, imagine they were like, look, I just wanna piss my wife off and you’re under 40. And I think that if we dated, that would work out great. And in a way, sometimes I appreciate the guys on online dating.
They’re like, I’m just into fun casual dates. That’s code. And we know it. But some of them actually mean it literally, that’s the funny part. They don’t realize that there’s other men out there who don’t mean it that way. I appreciate that they can at least admit it.
counter parenting: The guy you married never existed
Amy: Something that my mother said to me. Her father was a severe alcoholic. He died of complications from alcoholism. He was also an abusive man. She said to me, “Amy, my father wasn’t an abuser because he was an alcoholic. He was an alcoholic because he was an abuser.”
Anne: Yeah.
Amy: And when you take someone who’s a truly benevolent human being. Who really just believes in the good in people, wants to have a great family, wants to be a great wife, wants to buy the Christmas gifts, and you put them with someone who is so callously lying all the time. She has to see a person she fell in love with. Always like you’re looking for the guy you married. He never existed, it wasn’t real. And that is a really hard thing to come to terms with, because you remember it.
I have a bonus of having kept journals my whole life. And I always said the first year was the one good year I had. It’s packed with all these notes and love letters. And I pulled one of them out and in it, in that year one, it was me pleading for forgiveness, for having hormones. Now, I was raised in a family where three girls and my mother was a high ranking administrator in a school system. You did not use hormones as an excuse ever.
And that’s not for me to take it away from people who have, definite mood swings because of hormones. The fact that’s held against us is ridiculous, ’cause look at the erratic, hormonal swings of men. But I really didn’t have those sorts of swings.
Journal helps determine what really happened
Amy: I can check what happened in year one. Look, it wasn’t as great as I thought it was. He was already grooming me to start blaming everything on me and all the responsibility. Also, I can see all the moves of isolation. So, that is the one thing that did get me to see what was going on . I wrote down every time anything happened that made me feel terrible, degraded me, or was abuse. And when I started keeping a log, it was very obvious what had to happen. This is why I think abusers keep you so busy.
Anne: Yeah, so you can’t notice. I was gonna tell you, so my book, that I am almost done writing, I am more of a essay writer. So writing an actual 350 page book was like the worst, I have to say.
I think you’re amazing. But, it’s the reason why. When you said, “I’d love someone to research.” Over the past year, I went through all of my podcast interviews again and listened to them. Like a research study. So based on all those interviews and all my experience with our clients and interacting with women over the years. I’m almost done. I really wanna get it right.
Amy: And it’s good for research too. Getting it right is the thing.
Anne: The whole thing including counter parenting is just about the lies.
Amy: Amen, thank you. That’s great. You’ve brought to me in this podcast just today, the lies, right? No matter what, no matter how many times I go through it, or how many times I think about it, the lies that you find out about afterward are unbelievable.
There are people in the world who want to use you
Amy: You could have said to me, would he ever do this? I would’ve said, never in my life will he do that. What’s interesting is that he probably said, oh, well she did that, never did that. I travel for a living. I had the opportunity to cheat a million times. Never did, not like I had the opportunity. I never looked for it. I’m sort of a dork who wants to be in my hotel room by myself. And it’s cool to order room service, and then I work. That’s it, I work. So I don’t wanna do that.
Most people think that other people think like they do. And one of the things I get asked, “What do you wish you knew when you were our age?”
I said, “This is gonna sound heavy, but I mean it too. And you guys are teenagers, so you’re gonna get it . Here’s the deal. Everybody tells you to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, especially if you happen to be born female. You wanna give everybody the benefit of the doubt. You have to be nice, kind, sweet to everybody. And you have to accept all this behavior. And anybody who’s being rude, they just don’t mean it. Anybody who’s being mean, they just don’t mean it. They don’t know how mean they’re being.
That’s not true. What’s true is that there are people in the world that want to hurt you, break you down, make you theirs, control you, lie about you, use counter parenting, and they wanna use you. The sooner you know that, the better. Because I didn’t figure that out till I was 50.”
counter parenting: Nobody knew what to do
Amy: And not just when it came to my romantic life, there were other people in my life who were very close to me, since I was a very young person who were doing that to me. So everything’s a lie. Why is it so hard to get help? When I finally had the guts to pick up the phone and I was 3,000 miles away from home, isolated and call the people closest to me. Whether they were family or friends, and say to them, but especially the family, this is what’s happening.
This is what’s really going on. I don’t know what to do, I need help. I need to get out of here. Nobody knew what to do.
Anne: Right, exactly.
Amy: That’s why Mina, Jane’s mother, does what she does. She helps people because nobody knew what to do. And it was as simple as send me a plane ticket. And I didn’t know to ask that though. I didn’t know to say I need a plane ticket. I’d only just said this for the first time after seven or eight years of this. And at that point, I was so beaten down as a human being, completely didn’t even know who I was anymore.
And I’m a strong, confident person, always have been in so many ways. I had no idea what to ask for, and no one knew what to offer. And if I could tell women out there, listen, the minute you’re 15 years old, this is what happens. They’re all your sisters. I don’t even care if they were the one competing with you yesterday. I don’t care if they were the one that was putting you down yesterday.
We need to help other women
Amy: If they say, yo, I’m in this situation. What do I do? We all learn the answer. And try and help other women out because the more I am in the world, and the more I realize that this is way more common than the other, the perfect ideal relationship is a beautiful thing.
I know a few people in it, and is it the hardest work they ever did? Absolutely, man, it doesn’t come easy. But they have two adult people working toward the same thing. That is rare. That’s what I’m finding. The older I get, now that I can eat the senior meal at the diner. And I can tell you what, man, I don’t know many people who are in that situation, most are not.
Anne: Yeah, I could talk to you forever. You are incredible. So I’m like, oh, I can’t wait to talk to you again. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode to talk about counter parenting.
Amy: Anne, I’m always so happy to be on your side. Yeah, you’re doing great work. Thank you for what you do. Really in a huge way. And thanks for the conversation. You’re awesome, you rock. To be on this show and to be part of anyone’s journey to healing. It’s the most important thing in the world, fiction helps. Thank you
How To Recover After Infidelity – 4 Questions to Ask
Jan 06, 2026
When your husband’s infidelity comes to light, the truth doesn’t just hurt, it can completely shatter your sense of reality. For many women, discovering your husband has had a secret life brings shock, confusion, and a desperate search for answers. Learning how to recover after infidelity isn’t about fixing the relationship; it’s about finding emotional safety, clarity, and courage to stop chasing explanations and start protecting your peace.
How to Recover After Infidelity: Four Questions Every Betrayed Woman Asks
Women who go through this generally ask four questions:
If he really loved me, why did he do this?
If he lied to me for so long, how do I know he’s being honest right now?
How can I ever trust him again?
Did I ever really know him?
So if you’re trying to figure out how to recover after infidelity, Bethany’s story will help you understand what emotional safety and clarity look like when the truth feels impossible. Discover if you are a victim, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: How To Recover After Infidelity
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Bethany. Like many women who contact BTR, she didn’t just deal with his lies, she dealt with the shock of realizing that her entire reality may have been built on lies.
Bethany: The first time I found them, I was getting ready for work and it popped up on his phone. And then I went down a rabbit hole, I guess, looking through his phone. I found out that he was messaging both men and women.
Anne: Today’s episode is about that moment of discovery, the one that changes everything. She found messages she wasn’t meant to see, and those messages exposed an entire secret life. This is her story about how to recover after infidelity.
Welcome, Bethany.
Bethany: Thank you.
Anne: I’m so grateful that you would share your story today. So, Bethany, let’s start at the beginning.
Bethany: I’m very grateful to have found Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. I was searching for some sort of support and community after everything that had happened. So when we were dating, things progressed quickly within our relationship.
He was successful in his work. I was successful in my work. He was charismatic, he made me laugh, he was into fitness, and that was important to him. Looking back, I may have ignored some pretty large red flags to focus on all the things I liked about him, like his personality and his physical appearance. Within the first month of dating, I could see there were a lot of highs and lows. And I focused more on the good rather than the lows.
Early Discoveries and Dismissals That Pointed to Infidelity
Bethany: But, about two months into dating, I started seeing text messages. He was reaching out and soliciting oral sex and other inappropriate messages.
Anne: How did you find these texts ?
Bethany: The first time I found them, I was getting ready for work, and it popped up on his phone. And then I went down a rabbit hole, I guess, looking through his phone. I found out that he was messaging both men and women. I was not religious. He denied it was anything, and I don’t remember exactly what he said, but I did end up believing him.
Very quickly, we got engaged, and then we found out we were pregnant. There was more verbal abuse while I was pregnant. And ended up getting married a month later. So it was very quick. This is the person you’re giving your life to, and the one person you should trust the most. I found out that he watched pornography. He denied it. It’s extremely confusing. I didn’t know how to recover after infidelity.
Then, I found out he was on same sex dating apps and reaching out pursuing men and I’m wondering, is my husband gay? He’s always been very homophobic, almost, and critical of gay people. He would get very defensive if you confronted him about it, and I don’t know what any other explanation there is.
Anne: What explanation would he give?
How to Recover After Infidelity When the Truth Keeps Shifting
Bethany: He said there was no excuse for his actions, except that he started watching pornography early, and it became more graphic which led to being curious about other things. He denied he is gay. He said he’s disgusted by what he has done.
Anne: I think the most confusing thing was that I couldn’t ever get a straight answer because the answers didn’t make sense. Because so many things seemed so, elusive. I’d try to hold onto it and I couldn’t quite. It would just disintegrate in my hands. I’ve come to believe he chose to do that. How to recover from infidelity when everything keeps shifting?
Bethany: Yeah, it’s a hard realization, and you wanna try to figure out the reasons why he’s lying or the causes of sexual addiction. But he made that choice. It doesn’t make sense to me. I’m like, if something disgusts me, why would you do it?
Anne: Well, it could have been that you didn’t wanna try it, but peer pressure or coercion. Women do things they don’t wanna do all the time due to coercion. So many women have sex when they don’t wanna have sex, due to coercion. I’ve never wanted to smoke cigarettes, so it’s never been difficult for me to not smoke cigarettes. Because no one was coercing him to look at gay pornography. People generally, from my experience, don’t look at gay pornography unless they want to.
Bethany: Exactly, at the end of the day, it was something you desired and wanted to do and chose. I think lying definitely was one of the hardest things, because when there are secrets, it’s hard to go from there. How do you trust someone after that?
When Faith Communities Don’t Understand: How to Recover After Infideltiy
Bethany: I first turned to the church, to my pastor, and she had me put together a list of boundaries. So I put it together all in writing. Because I believed God can work if you take that step and let the Holy Spirit lead you.
I did one COSA meeting, I felt like it was blaming me. Then like I started to feel like I was codependent and that’s why all of this happened. We did a marriage intensive.
Anne: For sex addiction?
Bethany: Yes, emotional intimacy and sex addiction. Because I feel like that is the first place you look when you’re trying to work with someone. I told my story within counseling and the church support groups. It brought on a whole different level of confusion and hurt. It was just, like distorted reality. Almost like I go out and have fun, and then pretend like it didn’t happen. I wasn’t facing the issue. I didn’t want to believe it. So I believed what he said, and then it just escalated to the point where I had no other choice. I had to get to the truth and learn how to recover after infidelity.
I was at work. He lost his job. It was over the weekend, and my husband is on phone all the time. And we have a baby. We were all spending time with the baby, having a family day, and went to bed that night. I find out he was, on his phone again, messaging on different dating apps. It was really traumatizing to see how many people that there were. And then there were explicit videos and messages.
He had someone in our house with our children there
Bethany: And how I came to find that I was on my five-year-old’s iPad and a location share came up. I recognized the name from early on in our relationship. It was a man and I asked him about it and he got very aggressive and upset. So I find out that he had this individual over while I was at work. I think I didn’t really know how to feel in that moment. I went through all of the stages of trauma and grief in terms of numbing and isolating.
It was just gut wrenching to think about the fact that he was messaging these things and asking someone to come over to our home with our children there. It added a whole other layer to my confusion. The person I loved and committed my life to has a secret life that you don’t know about. So I don’t know who this person is, and I’ve been sharing my life with a complete stranger. And there’s a lot of fear with that.
I was searching for more specific support from someone who had already been through it, other people that you can relate to. I came across BTR. And I was like wow, this is really, really helpful. I started listening to the podcast, and the resources made available through BTR helped me navigate that next step in learning how to recover after infidelity. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions gave me live support.
The BTR resources I’ve used a lot considering where do I go from here? I’ve been looking at how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change. And I’m still using that, because the signs of changing, you have to see consistently over time. It’s not something you can tell him to do.
Safety is the most important thing
Bethany: You said in there, don’t do it. So I didn’t, ’cause I wanted to know for myself if he was going to change. I utilize It as a guideline to determine if I’m going to stay in this relationship or what’s my exit strategy. I’m still evaluating. We separated, I first turned to my best friend, and she stayed with me. And then my mom flew in and stayed with me.
Anne: That’s exactly what to do because observing and just watching, you’ll always know the truth and that’s the safest place to be.
Bethany: Following the BTR podcast, hearing other people’s stories brought me additional comfort. And learning from those too. Cause I feel like it acknowledges the pain it caused, and being honest about the effects and consequences of the other’s actions. I think forgiving just means you’re doing it for yourself, and that the person owing the debt still owes that debt.
Anne: Yeah, they do. I think they sometimes don’t realize that part. Just because you forgive the debt doesn’t mean they still don’t owe it.
Bethany: Right, knowing other people have been through this same thing. And they’ve been able to leave, or move on, or whatever stage they’re in their process.
Anne: Whatever is the right thing for them to do. Because at BTR, safety is the most important thing, and everyone defines that in different ways. When you are figuring out how to heal after infidelity, I do feel like wives, for the most part, feel like keeping their marriage intact is the safest option, especially when you have kids.
Telling your story will help others
Anne: So because you’re navigating a safety issue, what’s going to bring me the most safety is the better question. Has that been part of your process? Because that was for me. Divorce felt unsafe to me. And so that’s why I didn’t end up filing for divorce. Divorce seemed like the least safe thing of all my options.
Bethany: Yeah, especially with children, I think, and even if you don’t have children. Because you don’t want that to be the reason, you have to evaluate what is truly the safest, you know? I think just going back to each person’s situation will be different. But, I wanted other people to know if they have similar situations, that there are other people. you giving me this opportunity to share my story. It’s helped me so much to do this. And to talk with you and have this BTR platform. I hope it helps.
Anne: Yes, your story will. It will for sure help somebody.
Husband Is Ignoring Me? 3 Shocking Truths You Need Now – Mary’s Story
Dec 30, 2025
Have you caught yourself thinking, my husband is ignoring me and feeling that knot in your stomach when the silence drags on?
You’re not making it up. Silence can be its own form of punishment, leaving you anxious, second-guessing, and desperate to fix things. In today’s episode, Mary shares how her husband used ignoring as a weapon, vanishing for weeks, shutting her out after their honeymoon, and withholding attention to stay in control.
If you’ve felt the sting of silence, this conversation will help you see what’s really going on.To see what types of emotional abuse you also experienced, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
3 Reasons Why Trying To Connect With Your Husband If He’s Ignoring You Doesn’t Work
1. Silence isn’t a misunderstanding. It’s a tactic.
When he withholds attention, it’s not an accident. Ignoring someone is often used to punish or control someone.
2. vulnerability gives him new tools to use against you.
If advise you to open up more to him to try to get him to talk, that’s going to put you in more emotional danger.
3. your connection can’t solve his accountability problem.
No amount of extra effort, patience, tenderness on your part is going to solve his accountability problem. There’s nothing you can do to undo the choices he’s making. If he’s ignoring you, that’s entirely his problem.
At BTR, we know how long, lonely, and painful the road to healing can be. Don’t travel this road alone. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
Transcript: My Husband is Ignoring Me
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Mary. A large part of her story is that her husband ignored her, and I know a lot of you are dealing with that. A lot of times we feel like we need to repair something. If someone ignores us because they’re upset with us. Here’s a part of Mary’s story, and you’ll hear the context of what happened around this a bit later.
Mary: I thought, why is my husband ignoring me? I didn’t know what was going on, and I spent the whole time crying in another room. Thinking, this is tragic. I thought our marriage would be something kind and loving, but it wasn’t.
Anne: So Mary, I’m so sorry that ignoring you was such a big part of your story. Welcome.
Mary: Hi, Thanks for having me.
Anne: I’m so honored and grateful that you would share your story. So let’s start at the beginning.
Mary: I met my now ex-husband of 10 years at church. He was so godly. He was very exciting, had amazing stories. And he had this great contagious laugh. He was great around people, or so I thought.He is just checking all the boxes. Eventually, we started dating. In this church culture, there were many rules around intimacy. No sex before marriage. You could maybe hold hands, go on your date once a week, very structured and not very natural.
Anne: How old were you at the time?
Mary: I had just finished my master’s, so I was 26 or 27. We dated for one year, and on the anniversary of that year, he proposed.
Dating Red Flags: Why My Husband Ignoring Me Isn’t Just Stress
Mary: But during the dating relationship, there were so many red flags that I didn’t know were red flags. I had no context for that. It was easy to make excuses, because he’s this great guy, spiritual, loving, thoughtful, serves at the church and always takes care of other people. And I didn’t know that was just a facade.
During that time, a lot of strange things would happen. I remember one time he just disappeared for a couple weeks. I was wrought with anxiety and worry, and I had no idea. Nobody had heard from him. We were in this tight-knit community. Everybody knew everybody’s business. Nobody knew where he was.
Anne: Wow, that’s like intense.
Mary: I tried reaching out, texting, calling, there was no response. I was trying to not overdo it. I don’t know about your experience with church culture and other people’s. But for me, you had to have this kind of privacy and respect for the other person, and not overdo it. Because then you idolized them. Eventually, he sent me a picture of his face with a black eye, and tells me this outrageous story about him and his brother getting into a brawl, and somehow he was the good guy trying to help direct his life. He’s the oldest of six.
They were refugees from communist Russia with this intense life. And he raised all of them, basically a parent to them.Anyway, I had had it, I had gone through all the emotions at this point. I was like, this guy doesn’t seem to care. I had gotten to a place where I was like, I’m not doing this, because I don’t wanna be involved with someone like this.
The Mask Slips: What It Really Means When My Husband Is Ignoring Me
Mary: But somehow he said all the right things and got me back in, begged me, gimme just one more chance. And I thought, I guess that’s a good sign. I didn’t know what to make of this. So I forgave him, and within a month or two, he proposed. Looking back, I realized he saw how close he was to losing control of me. And so he had to do something to lock it down. I was starting to feel that church pressure of, well, you’re getting kind of old and you’re gonna have family, you’re gonna get married, you gotta do it soon.
I still believed this is a good guy. He’s just having a hard time. It’s easy to excuse what we think are blips in their behavior. When I think they take a mask off for a moment. ‘Cause they’re tired of pretending. And then you see the real them, thinking it’s the other way around.
Anne: Right, I have an interesting story I’ve never told before. I was dating a guy who was an abuser, and I didn’t know he was an abuser. And he was getting closer to maybe being serious, and suddenly, he just fell off the map, kind of what you’re saying. Couldn’t get a hold of him, like nothing.
He then reached out to me and said, “I’m back. I’m ready to move forward with our relationship. I just needed some time to think about it. I need to talk to our ecclesiastical leader to clear some things up, and then we can move forward.” Like you, I was ready to move on by the time he came back.
WHeN He takes a Sudden break In The Relationship
Anne: It was weird to me that he didn’t ask me how I was doing at all. It was like, I’m ready to move forward with you, so I’m gonna do this. And then we’ll move forward without asking me anything. So it turns out that while he was “taking that break to assess what he wanted out of his future.” He had gone and lived with a woman for three weeks and had sex with her a ton, and then realized he didn’t wanna marry her. He wanted to marry me. So our church excommunicated him. And came to me and said, “Okay, I got excommunicated, but I’m ready to move forward.”
And I was like, what are you talking about? I’m never talking to you again. We’re not dating. This pattern that he thinks he can do what he wants, and that you’re not gonna notice? Because during that time when they’re gone, they don’t think about us. They’re distracted doing the thing they wanna do. They’re not thinking how it affects us. They have such a lack of understanding that we are going through something during those times.
Mary: Yes, they are self-centered. In fact, we went to premarital counseling. The husband of the couple that was counseling us pulled me aside and in confidence said, “Hey, just so you know, while you were dating, he confessed to me about how he had gone to a bar one night and did some very questionable things with another woman. And I’m just trying to get him to confess it so that you and him both know that he did it.” I was shocked. At this point, my future husband is ignoring me and keeping secrets.
Anne: What?
He doesn’t confess anything
Mary: He never did confess it. He just acted like he had no idea. And so I thought, well, what’s the truth then? Did he actually do something? He seems innocent and has no clue.
So we married. And the moment we leave the wedding reception and drive off to our honeymoon, that whole week we were gone, we fought. Oh my goodness. I didn’t even recognize this person. We slept in separate rooms. I cried every night, and when we got home from the honeymoon, he just ignored me. It was like I was invisible. I wasn’t even in the home as far as he was concerned. There was no consideration, no conversation, and I was devastated.
Anne: Wow.
Mary: So I am on the internet Googling annulment, and anything I can think of, what is this behavior? I don’t know why my husband is ignoring me. I couldn’t find any answers. So I finally called up his mentor in the church, one of his best friends. I just left a voicemail and said, “Hey, here’s what’s going on. I don’t know what to do. Can you talk to him?” I never heard from this friend of his, but the next day, he finally acknowledges me. He is on his knees begging me to forgive him, but I didn’t know what for. To this day, I still have no idea what he was doing for those months.
Anne: Wow.
Mary: The strange part is that, probably for the next two years, it was the most blissful marriage. We were partners, we talked about things, we were able to be connected. And I thought, oh, this is amazing.
From Bliss To Fear: My Husband Is Ignoring Me As Punishment
Mary: And so one day, he says to me out of the blue that he’s tired of pulling the weight of this marriage. He is not doing it anymore. And that, if I want this marriage to work, I have to do all the work. I thought, when did he start feeling this way? I still don’t know what made him suddenly decide that I’m just this terrible wife.
It just went on like this over the years. Every so often he would throw me these curve balls and major ones like that. He would ignore me to get what he wanted. I was working and trying to rise up in my career. And he had complete control over all my paychecks. I couldn’t touch them. Everything I had, he took. At some point, I decided I just needed a secret stash. Like I need to have a couple hundred dollars tucked away in case I need gas for the car.
He caught whiff of it and became obsessed with finding it. One day I came home, and he had dumped all the contents of my closet all over the living room. He was becoming more and more unstable and erratic. And he starts, telling me, oh, you should be ashamed of yourself. At this point, I’m thinking, what am I not doing right? The whole mental load of running the home is on me. Like I do everything. And so at the time I’m just thinking, I just have to show him. I just have to work harder, be more submissive, more gentle with him.
My Husband terrifies me
Mary: He’s depressed, so maybe I need to make doctor’s appointments for him.
As the years went by it only got worse. He prided himself on the fact that he never hit me, but he was battering me emotionally. He’s like, “I’ve never hurt her” whenever I would bring it up with church counseling.
Things started escalating when my body could no longer tolerate this behavior. I was so stressed trying to make this work, trying to understand. We actually went to marital counseling. The very first session, he stars berating the therapist, questioning her authority. I think we went maybe twice. All it did was fan the flames of his anger.
Three or four years into the marriage, we started meeting with another couple in the church that felt more like peers. Every Sunday night, we would have dinner with this family. At one point, I confided in them. Hey, there is a problem here with alcohol. He’s going through a whole bottle of liquor in 24 hours. This is scary, he’s not well. And they both say we’re not going to bring it up until you’re ready. So what happened? The very next session, the husband brings up my ex-husband’s alcohol use. And confronts him with the details no one is supposed to know.
At the session with them in their home, my husband was very agreeable, humble, apologetic. “Yeah, I really need help. Thank you so much.” We get in the car to go home. My husband is upset with me for talking about him behind his back, sharing his dirty little secret. Well, he drives past our home and goes off to this dark isolated riverbank. I was terrified.
When My Husband is Ignoring Me Escalates From Silence To Threats
Mary: Yeah, he’s never laid a hand on me. But what if tonight’s the night? He’s so mad, and he had this evil, horrible presence. I thought he could actually kill me. It was so scary. I froze in fear.
At one point, he just turned home, and I knew better than to say a word. I was just silent and hoping I wouldn’t ignite it or make it worse. That presence that I felt in him that day was terrifying. I didn’t think it could escalate, but it did. It got to where he was punishing me. Like, “You need to sit in the corner on your knees as punishment until I say.” Or he would jokingly put his hands around my neck. Really, these are veiled threats.
Anne: Even not so veiled threats. They’re overt threats with a smile on his face.
Mary: That’s right. It got to the point where he was leaving his handgun laying around. It would just be laying around. With the way his behavior was lining up with a gun in our house, that was scary for me. Plus, I live where I have no family. I felt isolated. I called up a friend and said, “What do I do?”
And her advice was, “Why don’t you take a weekend, pack a little bag. Take some time and think it through without his presence weighing on you?”
I said, “Oh, that’s a great idea.” But even then, I was so scared to leave, because what would he do if I left? So I went and stayed with some mutual friends.
He destroys my wedding dress and vandalizes my car
Mary: And I remember him calling around, threatening all of our acquaintances and friends. So people were finally starting to see some of what I was dealing with.
They told me, “We can’t have you here anymore, so we will relocate you an hour away.” I had tried to go back to get more of my things. He had changed the locks on the house. So, I ended up breaking into my own home to get my things. I found my wedding dress ripped to shreds, our wedding pictures smashed all over the floor with divorce papers, his wedding ring, and the gun all piled up.
Anne: It changed from my husband is ignoring me to fear tactics. You just said divorce papers.
Mary: Blank divorce papers.
Anne: So he got blank divorce papers and staged them in your house.
Mary: Yes, as a threat, or a way to scare me. So I go onto the third location, and I’m at my friend’s house with my car. The title was in my name, as was our home. I bought one of those steering wheel clubs to lock the car.
He didn’t have a key to the club, but he had a key to the car. That night, he came over to get the car, and he couldn’t take it. So he pulled out a four inch knife systematically, calmly, slashing all my tires. That was so scary, I got a restraining order. I have this restraining order, and I’m working with the elders of the church and with different mentors, peers, friends. And a lot of the advice is that you just need to focus on your own spirituality.
Church Culture Missed The Danger, But God Didn’t
Mary: So I’m thinking, all I know is that I made a vow to this man before God. I couldn’t imagine standing before God, on judgment day, trying to explain myself, why did I rip up my marriage? Because I still couldn’t see that my husband is ignoring me as abuse, after all that. I spent about a year separated from him, trying to save my marriage.
Anne: So you’re wondering why is my husband doing this, and no one you talk to is saying this is clearly abuse as well?
Mary: Nobody spelled it out that way.
Anne: People rarely, if ever look you straight in the face and say, you are in danger. This is abuse.
Mary: Over the course of that year of that restraining order, there were provisions on it. He could email me about our bills, financial things we had to keep in order, and each time he as behaved more in line with what I needed, I would become more lax. At one point. I dropped it because he had started behaving so angelically.
I’m so sad for myself at that point. If I had only known. But we get back together and have a child, so by then it had been eight years of marriage. And we’re living in that same home, and he still has this drinking problem. And he would just do things that were really scary. I eventually got to the point where I remember being on my knees, begging, God, can you please just take him out of my life? Can you please do something? If you’re not willing to do that, at least give him a DUI so that he stops driving drunk and possibly hurting other people.
Therapist finally Confirms My Husband Ignoring Me, Is abuse
Mary: I kid you not. I get a call at 3:00 AM from the jail, him crying, saying he’d been arrested for a DUI. I couldn’t believe it. And I thought in that moment, God has my back. He really does. And I can get outta this, but it wasn’t until my daughter was almost two years old, when the final straw happened. She was crying, she called out Mama over and over, and he shut her in the room, locked the door and wouldn’t let me go in. I remember just putting my head on the doorframe, realizing this is never going to get better.
If I can’t even have connection with my child, what am I doing here? So I called up my therapist and I said, is this abuse? Is this domestic violence?
Anne: So from the time you think my husband is ignoring me to now, how long had you been going to therapy, until you thought can my husband change?
Mary: For maybe six years.
Anne: I’m just shocked. You realize how insane that is. You’ve told the therapist all of these stories.
Mary: So, she says, “Yes. It’s the worst case in my career I’ve ever seen.”
Anne: This is why I don’t recommend therapy. It’s not that this therapist is a bad person or anything, but you’ve been going to her for six years. At this point, she says it’s the worst case she’s ever seen. Instead of telling you, you don’t need therapy, he’s an abuser. So I am not gonna see you anymore. You do need to go to the domestic violence shelter, though, because there’s nothing wrong with you other than being abused. That would’ve been the appropriate thing to tell you. You don’t need therapy, but you do need safety.
So many miracles happened
Mary: Absolutely, I got all my ducks in a row. I started going to centers that help abused women. I got a grant where they paid for me to get a mover and a truck. The day I was going to leave, I got a call from a domestic violence fatality specialist. She says, “Hey, I heard your story, this one bedroom apartment just opened. It’s not even cleaned yet. They’re still moving out, but it’s yours if you want it.”
They let me stay for two years, and while I was there, I got my career going again, started saving money, figured out babysitting, finalized the divorce, the whole nine yards. There are so many miracles that no one can convince me that God wasn’t helping me. And what I finally realized was God would never want someone’s safety and wellbeing and their mental clarity compromised. I matters to God. Once I figured that out, I thought, ” I don’t owe anybody anything. I need to be safe.”
Anne: I’m so glad you had those resources available to you. The social safety net is so important. I had somebody ask me, if you could wave a magic wand, and be like, what could stop domestic violence? The two things are healthcare available for everyone and childcare available for everyone. Because women can’t get a job that would pay for childcare. And so then you’re just stuck. And also, so many women who are abused have serious health problems and need insurance. They can’t pay for insurance because they have their health problems.
Mary: I know. There were so many things that pointed toward him being the problem. After I left, I could see that more clearly.
My husband is ignoring me: Manipulation & mind games
Anne: Originally the issue was your husband is ignoring you. Talk about what you noticed once you could observe him from a safe distance. How did your mind start to clear?
Mary: Once I got my own place, I could see much more clearly these games that he’d been playing, and that gave me a little more power and autonomy over my own actions, decisions, and thoughts. I knew I could go ahead and move on with my life. And he’s gonna make a fuss and act out and say all these things, but probably nothing will come of it.
Anne: To manipulate us, they know that we need to believe them and pay attention. In the Living Free Workshop, I teach safety strategies to help women perceive what he’s doing differently, so that they can create space in their own minds. If they can’t create any physical space at that time, or if they don’t want to create physical space. Some women don’t want to get divorced. I felt that way, and you felt that way. So we totally understand. Especially when the institutions around us, like therapy and clergy, didn’t give you the right information.
I think that is so insane that our society is set up so that an abuse victim who doesn’t understand that she’s being abused can actively go to get help and still not understand that she’s being abused for years. Because of the institutions and the way they respond to abuse. Most of the time, they don’t know it’s abuse either.
Mary: A friend of mine who’s a licensed clinical social worker recommended your podcast to me.
Strength from other’s stories
Mary: As I listened to your podcast, I started looking forward to this validation that this guy is in his own class of special. And there are a bunch of guys out there that do this to women like me. I would sit there with my headphones on my breaks at work and try to cram in as much as possible, because I knew this is giving me strength to keep healing after the fact.
Anne: I’m so glad. You sound incredible, smart, capable and successful, and you’re a good mom. I’m grateful for women like you who share their story. It still makes me feel better after all these years. Because your story sounds like mine. The details are different, but the pattern is the same, and it is so validating. It’s nice to be part of a sisterhood of incredible strong women who are smart, who were manipulated, and it’s no fault of our own. Maybe they relate to you and how your husband is ignoring you at first.
You’ve mentioned God a few times, and then I also hear your hesitation about the church, which makes complete sense. I’ve been in that exact same space where, you know God is coming through for you, but the institution itself, at least in this case, was very damaging.
Mary: I would say that with the church I was attending for about 20 years, their involvement in my situation was horrifyingly, hands off. There were members here and there, who I could trust and talk to. When I would go to the elders, they wanted to sit down with him and I together and talk about what was going on. They don’t know what to do when my husband is ignoring me.
Not addressing the underlying issue of abuse
Mary: Looking back, that is not helpful at all, because I’m just getting re-traumatized, re-abused with them, seeing it or him gaslighting, everybody. in these therapy sessions with elders, they’re all seeing a different side of him. The side of him that I initially thought I had fallen in love with. Nobody’s really addressing the underlying issue of abuse.
Anne: They should never ever pull him in to talk to him about it. Even if the victim wants them to. if they understood abuse, they would say, that’ll actually put you in more danger. Which is why I don’t recommend men’s programs anymore. Any confronting him whatsoever about his behavior will not help you see what he is like.
Letting women know that going to therapy or clergy can go bad, ’cause they can abuse you worse overtly, or covertly. Meaning they can groom a lot better, and that gives them the opportunity to do that. And that’s the most dangerous, is when they can hide their true nature.
Mary: A hundred percent agree. The grooming is scary because it’s so easy to be blinded to it, and it’s not just the victim, it’s everyone around too.
Anne: For any woman listening, maybe this is their first podcast they’ve ever listened to, and maybe they’re wondering like, is it abuse? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? What would you say to them from my husband is ignoring me to other abuses, and what you’ve been through?
Mary: What I would say is when somebody shows you, their true colors, believe them. When they make you feel anxious, stressed out, and then blame you.
My husband is ignoring me turned into Post separation abuse
Mary: If you feel uncomfortable or ask yourself, why is this marriage or this relationship so hard? Your marriage is probably involving somebody who’s abusive.
Honestly, listening to this podcast helped me sort through many uncertainties. By the time I found this podcast, everything I had been through made so much more sense. From my husband is ignoring me to overt abuse. I think if there’s any confusion about your situation, don’t brush it off. Listen to your instincts. If you’re not comfortable, your body’s not comfortable, there’s a reason, and it’s probably not you.
Anne: Can you talk about post-separation abuse and the stuff you had to deal with since you separated and divorced.
Mary: Oh man, it’s been tough, honestly, having any communication at any point. It’s almost as bad as when we were in our 10 year marriage. We are seven years post-divorce. He’s pretty manic and depressive at times, and demanding.
I went through the Living Free Workshop, and I got to this one section and it talked about my brain. There’s this image of your brain filled with all this abuse, taking up so much space in your life and your thoughts, and you feel so squeezed out.
And the visual is so clearly depicted, showing what it’s like to be the victim. There’s no room for you. There’s no space for your own thoughts or desires. It’s all about catering to this unstable person who is controlling your life. That was when I thought, this is going to be a good workshop because Anne gets it. It’s like walking through it with a good friend who understands what they’re gonna say, how they’re gonna react, why they’re doing it, what their goal is.
Your Eyes are opened to their games
Mary: When I got to the end of the workshop, I had to respond to something from him that was super coercive and controlling. I thought, oh, perfect. I’m gonna finish these last few lessons in this workshop. And I’m gonna figure out how to respond and see if this works. I implemented those strategies, and I didn’t get any lip back, I got no punishment. I thought, this is exactly what I needed all these years. And I wish I had found this sooner. I thought, oh my goodness, this is what women need to know
Anne: I wanna talk about that, because many people might perceive there’s something you can do to improve your situation. Even when my husband is ignoring me. I wanna make it clear that you’re not changing him in any way. What the Living Free Strategies enable women to do is see him for who he is, predict what he will do.
Mary: Absolutely, I think what you’re saying is spot on. It’s almost like your eyes are opened to what their game is, and now you have the rules. So now you’ve got a playbook. And it’s just a different type of strategy that feels counterintuitive. None of their communication is based on actually trying to solve anything. They just want the dopamine hit of confusing you and making you struggle. To communicate more strategically puts the power back in my court.
Anne: I’ve mentored so many women through that divorce process using these strategies. After doing the workshop, their messages are absolutely court approved.
Taking away your vulnerability
Anne: If this guy’s like, “Look how terrible she is, look at her messages.” They show up to court, and every time they’re like, “These are great.” The way she presents looks good in court. It looks good to anybody else. If he shows those messages to anybody, they’re gonna be like, this is fine. It’s like win-win for you. The other thing is that it doesn’t give him what he wants, so it’s confusing to him. They’ve always been able to manipulate your emotions. The “husband is ignoring me” is a tactic.
Can you talk about the counter intuitiveness of the Living Free Workshop? I think people think that maybe it’s the stuff they’ve heard from another influencer, like Gray Rock or maybe, something they heard from a therapist, like how to communicate. And it’s so different. It’s not anything a therapist would say.
Mary: This Living Free Workshop helped immensely. As a victim, most of us we’re really kind, we’re good hearted. We wanna solve problems, we wanna work together. You’re always trying to have this honest vulnerability and I think that’s what you take away, is that emotional vulnerability. But it doesn’t look like it in your messages to this person. You don’t make yourself vulnerable to this person in that sense of trying to solve the problem.
Anne: Having been abused post-divorce for eight years myself, before I came up with these strategies, people would tell me, just don’t let him affect you And I was like, that is crazy. So post-divorce, I did not experience any physical violence.
Strategies that work when my husband is ignoring me
Anne: So this is an analogy, because when they are emotionally abusive or psychologically abusive, you discover a lie. Again, they’re undermining your children, it feels like a punch to the gut. So I’m going to use that analogy, even though I’m not actually talking about physical violence here. So every time he’s lying about the kids, it feels like a punch, and so the analogy is if he’s punching me in the face.
I have a bruise, and you’re telling me, just don’t get a bruise. It’s not possible. What the strategies do is put a barrier between you and his fist. So, he’s punching, but, it’s not touching you. The more I did the strategies, the more he kept punching, and it was almost like I was in this protected bubble.
Mary: That’s a great analogy. Yep. I am no longer getting punched in the face, even though it doesn’t stop them from trying. It’s not about stopping them, it’s all about, Hey, you know what? You wanna be this type of person. Go ahead, I don’t wanna be exposed to that type of person. I’m not opening the door for you.
Anne: Yes.
Mary: I’m not allowing you to have access to me.
Anne: The Living Free Workshop came together after years of interviewing women and my own study and all kinds of experimentation. A well-known addiction recovery therapist would tell the men that he worked with, as long as your wife is angry, then we have something to work with. The thing you need to fear the most is apathy, which he was legit teaching them how to manipulate women. Would he say that he was doing this? No, he was saying he was, saving marriages. A “husband is ignoring me” is a tactic for manipulation.
Finding out about his pornography use
Anne: If you’re saving marriages through teaching this man how to manipulate his wife better or exploit her more, you’re not saving a marriage. You are enabling an abuser.
Because your story involves that your husband was a pornography addict, I’d like to talk about that specifically. Another part of the Living Free strategies in relation to pornography addiction or addiction recovery is that a lot of addiction therapists will say something like, connection is the solution to his addiction. Or couple therapists will be like, the problem is you’re not connecting on an emotional level.
And so then in couple therapy or addiction recovery therapy, you become more vulnerable with someone who is just using all those things to manipulate you. Including my husband is ignoring me. So it becomes exponentially worse for you throughout that process. Looking back, can you talk about how that affected you?
Mary: I didn’t even realize when we got together that any kind of sexual addiction, pornography addiction was even on the table. We got together through church, so it didn’t occur to me that there would be anything immorally going on with him. During that time, he would get really moody, and I remember thinking, I don’t wanna deal with this.
This is how my Christian boyfriend is treating me and we’re not even engaged or married or anything. It wasn’t until we got engaged that he started talking about how we need to confess our sins. We really need to be honest about what we’re getting into as a marriage and like our commitment. We got together with another couple in the church who were gonna do our premarital counseling. And during that time it came out that he would look at pornography.
My husband is ignoring me because of pornography
Mary: And that’s when he started saying, “Well, we need to be open and honest and confess our sins to each other.” And I tell you what, and it was like he would confess this to me every time I saw him, I was like, what is wrong? I thought, maybe it’s just because he’s so excited to get married and then we can finally have intimacy.
We followed all the rules and then we get married and I realize, I am in this deep black abyss of sin with this man. It was scary to see how deep involved in it he was. I could always tell when he had been looking at pornography because his mood would shift.
He would become very punishing. He would become very cruel. We got home from our, horrible honeymoon. We just fought the whole time because he wanted sex to go a certain way. It felt really unnatural and not loving to me. I didn’t really know what was going on and now my husband is ignoring me. I spent the whole time crying in another room and I thought, this is a tragic sad way to enter into a marriage covenant. I thought it was gonna be something kind and loving but it wasn’t. We get home from this honeymoon and I feel like a ghost.
I’m just living in this house with this guy who I feel like I don’t even know. So I’m online looking up annulments. How do I get out of this? What does God think? Questions you start having and not feeling like there was anyone I could talk to because it was such bizarre behavior. I had never heard of anything like this. As the years went by, it was the same pattern.
Twisting the whole narrative making it my fault
Mary: He’d become very mean and abusive and angry and sullen and pouty. I started to recognize the pattern. He’s been looking at pornography.
So then I started to bring it up because I don’t wanna live in this sullen and guilty, stressed out environment where my husband is ignoring me all the time and so I thought, let me address it. I’ll bring it up, and I’ll just try to forgive him. After a while, you get numb to it. In the beginning, I’d be heartbroken. I would be sad or like, what’s wrong with me? That you don’t want me. I’m the real thing. Like I’m a real woman that you can have sex with. I’m your wife.
Anne: Yeah.
Mary: But then he doesn’t prefer that. He doesn’t want that ever. It was always on the screens alone, behind closed doors by himself. And I thought, this is exhausting. I’m gonna confront it. I’m not gonna live like this. And then it became my responsibility. It was like his sin, his problem, and his addiction became my issue to confront, deal with, address and forgive.
And if I didn’t forgive him correctly then, I was the one to blame. Because I wasn’t understanding enough. And if I would just be nicer about it, then he could trust me to be vulnerable on his own. And it was almost like he was twisting this whole narrative around to make it my fault that he was choosing to be unfaithful to me with these explicit images.
Anne: Right.
Mary: I was absolutely not on board. He knew how much it broke my heart every single time.
manipulating you to do all the work
Mary: And then I was the one having to ask him to forgive me for not being vulnerable or supportive or fill in the blank with whatever nonsense.
Anne: We see this pattern happen and then we try to anticipate it and do something to change it. In my situation, I would fight him like, Hey, you’re acting weird. Are you looking at pornography? I would confront him. Near the end when I used a few Living Free strategies, not really knowing what I was doing, just experimenting. I just ignored him and took a step back and saw that their pornography use has two benefits to them. Number one, they get to watch porn all they want, and then number two, you are doing all this work.
And so it’s like win-win for them. I didn’t know that was manipulation on his part. It’s not your fault that you were trying to anticipate what to do to manage the situation. He wanted you to do that. You were attempting to protect yourself. You thought that was the good way to do it, because that’s what he manipulated you to think. But that’s also what everybody else is saying. Like if he is feeling sad and grumpy, what can you do for him? How can you be kinder? So that this won’t happen.
Mary: I wish that I had had access to the Living Free Workshop during all of that chaotic time being married to him. There is one strategy that would’ve given me my mental sanity back despite his chaos. There’s this one step by step in Living Free, where you think about what’s the problem.
when my husband is ignoring me, I Can’t make him stop
Mary: Okay, he is gonna look at pornography. Why? Because he wants to do what he wants and he wants to see me cry. So what then? I’ll cry and he’ll look at pornography, I guess. And then what? And you keep going through, all right, so then you’ll cry, and then eventually the reality is he’s gonna do whatever he wants either way.
So what do I wanna do? I can’t change the fact that he’s gonna look at these images. I can’t change the fact that it feels like he’s being unfaithful to me. And I can’t change the fact it hurts my heart and soul and I’m being crushed in all these ways. And my husband is ignoring me. So maybe we don’t have closeness or I sleep in a different room or maybe we get divorced or I go stay at my mom’s house.
When you take a minute and you think it all through, it takes away that fear. Because it gets down to the nitty gritty of what is the end result that you’re so afraid is gonna happen.
You come around to this acceptance of I really can’t make them do anything or stop anything. That was something that, I found very eye-opening because there’s this underlying assumption that somehow I could fix this.
Anne: Mm-hmm.
Mary: And you realize, all you can do is protect yourself, and then learning how to protect yourself was so valuable.
Anne: And it’s no wonder that we think that we can improve the situation because they manipulate us to think, if we only did this, he would make a different choice. If we looked better, he wouldn’t wanna look at pornography.
Setting boundaries correctly
Anne: So you’re like, okay, I’ll reduce his stress as much as possible. And he’s manipulated the therapist or clergy or anybody else to also think that this is a couple problem and that you can do this together. You can’t do it together ’cause it’s not your problem. I think the other issue is so many therapists will talk about boundaries. Like, did you tell him what your boundaries were? You just haven’t set up your boundaries correctly or something. And I’m like, what are you talking about?
If you say to someone, I don’t want you to look at pornography, he can still look at it. If you are like, what actual thing am I going to do to protect myself that I’m not gonna say to him that I’m not gonna say to anybody else that if he looks at pornography when he comes home and says, what’s for dinner? I’ll be like, i’m gonna eat at my sister’s house. That’s a totally different way of seeing and viewing boundaries where you don’t even say a word about it.
And that’s something entirely within your control and it actually works and he can’t cross it. There’s no way for him to cross it because you haven’t told him what it is. You’re just doing it.
Mary: There’s no negotiating. I like what you were saying about how he keeps convincing you with his behaviors and manipulation that you can fix it. The manipulation is to keep you engaged. My husband is ignoring me is a tactic for manipulation. They’ve gotta have somebody engaged, arguing with them, crying about it, serving them.
Don’t give him anything of value
Mary: They have to convince you on some level that you need to stay engaged. Even if my husband is ignoring me. And maybe it’s because you have a certain set of morals. This is a good Christian girl, like it was in my case.
Anne: I do wanna point out, at the back of Living Free, I use my own faith to explain what I thought Christ wanted me to do, for any Christian, scriptures, like, don’t cast your pearls before swine or agree with your adversary quickly. Agree with your adversary quickly sounds like you’re being nice to them, but the second part of that is so he doesn’t throw you in jail. And so Christ is saying to you, pretend like you agree with him so he doesn’t throw you in jail. You don’t have to actually agree with him. Don’t cast your pearls before swine. Your pearls are things that matter.
The Living Free strategies, make it so that you don’t give him anything of value. That includes your thoughts, your goals, your feelings. Those are valuable things. So, there’s a part in Living Free where I pause to say, what are your values? This fits within a Christian value system. Christ talks about it all the time, and I don’t know why clergy are not focused on scriptures that actually benefit women and help set them free.
In the back of the Living Free Workbook, it shows you, there’s 1600 places it talks about separation and casting out devils, and only 400 that talk about forgiveness. Did you see that graph at the back of the workbook?
strategic communication when my husband is ignoring me
Mary: I did. And it makes me think about the scripture that says to be as shrewd as a snake, but innocent as a dove.
Anne: Yes, especially when my husband is ignoring me.
Mary: You’re not doing anything wrong, but you can be strategic in how you communicate. I think this really opened up my eyes to the truth of a lot of things I wasn’t aware of. Honestly, I feel excited to do the message strategies now that I’ve done the Living Free Workshop.
I think for anyone who’s wondering about this Living Free Workshop, just do it. What can you possibly lose? After so many years of being given either bad advice or no advice or empty promises or blame, I found that going through this workshop, was like a breath of fresh air. These are not strategies any of those other resources provided me. Not my church elders, not my therapist, not my friends, not my family.
Nobody could tell me the things that were in the Living Free Workshop. Support that you’re just not gonna find anywhere else. You really aren’t. I’ve looked, I’ve read so many books, I’ve listened to so many podcasts and gone to so many different therapists. Like, you can just try the Living Free Workshop and it’s gonna change things for you. Implementing the strategies, I already see results. I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t try it, to be honest, because it’s just so helpful.
And there’s this whole section in here about your financial safety, your physical safety. I had to figure out on my own, what kinds of financial things do I need to be thinking of and I wish I had the workshop. Just tangible, effective things to be asking, to think about.
How do I create safety?
Mary: Questions you need to ask your lawyer, not because you necessarily need it right now, but you might. I know I did. I just think for people who are in the middle, wading through the weeds of it all, this workshop gives you so much detail to consider and you can get into the detail as much or as little as you want.
Anne: It’s awesome that with the domestic violence shelter gave you a space to live. They’re very helpful in some very specific ways, but when it comes to writing a message, they don’t know what to do. e.
Mary: Right, your body is safe but what about my spirit or my mind or my emotions, my child? Like how do I create a safety zone in all these other realms. All they care about, and thank God they at least care about your physical safety. But that’s the really the only element of safety I got out of it.
Anne: Yes. Living Free is also for women still in the relationship I just put all the information in there.
Like you can use it however you want, but that way you’ll be educated about all of it so that if anything comes your way, you’ll be prepared for it. Even if you’re just suspecting is my husband lying to me? If you did Living Free, it would show you how to find out if he’s lying to you without asking him.
Mary: Right.
Anne: So just having the basic steps in the back of your mind is very helpful because it keeps you safe no matter what happens.
You need a solid plan to protect yourself
Anne: In some states he has to actually have left bruises to get a protective order. And if you don’t have a crime, you’re never gonna get a space in the shelter, for example. So where do you get help, if nobody knows what to do. if people think that divorce is the answer, they don’t understand what it’s like.
Mary: It’s not the answer that will end his behavior. In my experience, that’s when it escalates.
Anne: Yes.
Mary: That’s when you have to really have a solid plan and know exactly how to protect yourself. You need to have that in order before before you go.
Anne: If I would’ve had Living Free, I would’ve done everything differently and it would’ve gone exponentially better. Now, it’s not my fault that it didn’t go well. It’s his. He was abusing me, manipulating me. I didn’t know. Nobody told me. The domestic violence shelter didn’t tell me. It’s almost like they want women to start from scratch. Every single woman who goes through this, rather than using that collective experience, which is what is in Living Free. This is the stuff every woman needs to know before they even meet the guy.
Before they’re even in a relationship. This is stuff that you need to know, period. It’s gonna keep you safe in any relationship that you have, but especially, if you’re dealing with an emotionally or psychologically abusive husband.
When my husband is ignoring me: you need space to see who he really is
Mary: Anyone could go through this workshop. I don’t care if you’re in a relationship or not, it’s almost like a pre-course to, equip yourself, have your tools, and all the things you need because you need to know who you’re dealing with.
Anne: Yeah. It gives you enough space to actually see who he is. So many women think the answer is to ask about pornography. Before I got married, I asked, and he said he didn’t use it. But if he’s lying, talking won’t protect you. Watch what he does: the “my husband is ignoring me” pattern, disappearing acts, mood flips. Those behaviors tell the truth, and knowing what they indicate helps keep you safe.
Mary: Yes.
Anne: Mary, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. I appreciate you so much.
Mary: My pleasure. It’s so great talking with you, Anne. Thanks for having me.
7 Ways To Make Co-Parenting With A Narcissist Tolerable
Dec 23, 2025
Co-parenting with a narcissist seems impossible. I know I’ve been there. If your husband or ex is narcissistic, here are 7 ways your he might try to undermine you and your kids, along with 7 ways to overcome it.
To find out how bad it is, see which of the 19 different emotional abuse tactics he uses. Take our free emotional abuse quiz.
The 7 Ways A Narcissist Will Undermine Co-Parenting
Gaslighting: Narcissistic men are good at making you doubt yourself. They might say you’re overreacting when you’re not. They may say your helicopter parenting when you’re not. Be on the lookout for how he tries to undermine your self confidence.
Using The Kids To Hurt You: A narcissistic ex may manipulate the kids to hurt you. Or they may want to go into chaos, and so they undermine the children’s medical care, extra curricular activities, or school work.
Playing the victim: Narcissistic men might twist things to make themselves look like the victim. They may exaggerate situations to get sympathy from others and make you seem like the bad one.
Undermining your authority: They might try to take control by making decisions without asking you. Or tell your children that you’re not smart or not a good parent.
Using money as leverage: A narcissistic ex could use money to control you by withholding child support or making unfair demands.
Seeking revenge: Narcissistic men may hold grudges and act out of spite.
Lack of empathy: A narcissistic husband or ex won’t understand or care about your feelings. This will make co-parenting with a narcissistic parent really hard.
How Do Stay Sane When CO-Parenting With A Narcissistic Parent
Co-parenting with a narcissistic parent requires a strategic and mindful approach. Here are seven ways to make the process more tolerable:
1. Know Communication Won’t Help When Co-Parenting With A Narcissist
Since communication is just another way for the narcissist to manipulate us, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we’ve learned that we can’t count on communication to resolve anything. It helps when you know that communication won’t do anything to stop him from causing chaos. Instead, use effective boundaries that don’t need to be “communicated”, like the ones we teach in The Living Free Workshop.
“I’d been to so many therapists. They just kept telling me to “set boundaries”. What a joke. It never worked. But then I enrolled in The Living Free Workshop at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and holy cow do these ladies know what they’re doing. I could tell immediately they’d been through it. And figured out safety from these dudes. Thanks so much BTR!!!”
3. Use a Parenting App when co-parenting with a narcissist
Parenting apps can help, because everything is documented. There are calendars and info banks to use to limit communication as much as possible.
4. How Do You Co Parent with a Narcissist When He Undermines Everything? Prioritize Self-Care
Taking care of your own physical and emotional well-being is crucial when co-parenting with a narcissistic parent. Engage in activities that bring you joy and relaxation, and seek support from friends, family, or an online support group for women.
5. Focus on Your Children’s Well-being
Keep your focus on what’s best for your children. Avoid hurting your children by promoting their narcissistic dad’s behavior as “love”. Instead, say, “I’m so sorry. I felt that way too. He hurt me too. I’m sorry he doesn’t seem capable enough to love someone as lovable as you.”
transcript: 7 Ways To Make Co-Parenting With A Narcissist Tolerable
Anne: Tammy Guns is here today. She’s going to share her story. She started her career in auditing and accounting for two big four public accounting firms. Then she served in leadership roles in large scale healthcare organizations before her career as a certified divorce financial analyst. Her expertise extends beyond the advisory realm as a trusted expert witness in courtrooms, offering invaluable insights, utilizing forensic accounting.
She has also served on two boards of directors and completed Deloitte’s certification program for women board readiness. We will talk about co-parenting with a narcissist. Welcome, Tammy.
Tammy: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk with you today.
Anne: You mentioned that your personal story is part of what interested you in becoming a certified divorce financial analyst. So can we start there?
Tammy: Yes, well, you can only connect the dots backwards. And when I look back to my dating of him. There were so many signs that showed he was a narcissist, but I was so young.
My wonderful father was incredibly involved in our lives. I’m one of four children. When I met my ex husband, I did not believe a man could not be a good husband and a good father, because I had such an amazing example of one. I was right out of college when I met him. I was just captured. He’s good looking, charismatic. He’s super intelligent. He was a football player in college. I’m like, of course, he’ll be a good dad, of course he’ll be a good husband, because that’s what I had as an example, and I was looking for all the wrong things.
“I Couldn’t Have Known”: What I Wish I Knew Before co-parenting with a narcissistic parent
Tammy: Today, I’d have a phone conversation with him and realize absolutely what a narcissist he is. And co-parenting with a narcissist can feel impossible.
Anne: Well, we don’t know. It’s not our fault. I think even if you learned about narcissism, until the mask comes off, you still wouldn’t know that they were a narcissist. We don’t even have the context for it. You might see the red flags. But because of your context, you think, oh, he’s tired or stressed out. So to say, people saw red flags and then ignored them. I would say people saw the red flags, and the context they had for them was not that context.
Anne: Knowing what you know now, what would you do differently? It’s like, would you do anything different? When you knew what you knew then. And the answer is always I couldn’t do anything different.
Tammy: Correct, I couldn’t. So I was married for about 17 years when my then husband came home and basically said to me, “I’m done being married to you. I know how much you love the children, so you can have them.” It was pretty traumatic to have the rug pulled out from underneath me.
So I ended up going on the journey of a divorce, certainly not understanding anything that was going to happen. In today’s environment, it’s more of a 50/50 situation. But, I went from being a stay at home mom to going back into the workforce, as well as having the children a hundred percent by myself. I do have four college degrees, so I was in the workforce for a while, but at the time I was a stay at home mother.
He Didn’t Want To Be Responsible For The Children, But He Still Wanted Control
Anne: Wow, that is very unique. I don’t hear that every day, where you got them 100 percent of the time. So many women, at least who listen to this podcast or who are co-parenting with a narcissist, are fighting these narcissists or abusers in court for years. So that is like a miracle. Was that happening with many people back then?
Tammy: Even back then, dads had the kiddos every other weekend, probably one night during the week for dinner, like a Wednesday night. What happened in my particular situation is that my ex went through a midlife crisis. He started dating a 25 year old girl who reported directly to him at work. His midlife crisis was, not only do I not want to be married, I also don’t want the responsibility of caring for children. He wanted to travel the world with her, do all sorts of fun things, and of course children get in the way.
At the time, I was incredibly scared. How will I take care of these children full time, as well as work full time? But as you said, Anne, in hindsight, it was the greatest blessing that could ever happen. That way I did have the children by myself as far as not co-parenting with a narcissistic parent.
I spent 10 years in court with him, but it wasn’t over the time with the children. It was a matter of him actually paying me. Our ink was not even dry on our divorce decree, and he was already not paying me spousal support, not paying me child support, et cetera, et cetera.
Hindsight: Unrecognized Signs of Narcissism
Tammy: So I was unfortunately wrapped up in the court system for a very long period of time. Until my youngest child went off to college, but I never had to fight him for time. Like I said, I feel fortunate.
Anne: How did you know that he was a narcissist?
Tammy: He told me, on our wedding night, I will not fail. I do not fail at anything. And so I believed our marriage was for the rest of our lives. I didn’t think he would want to be divorced, because that would be a “failure”.
Of course, everything’s crystal clear in hindsight. But certainly not when that’s happening. I looked up a lot about narcissists. He meets the Mayo Clinic definition of a narcissist, like every point. He lacks empathy. I know that many times people throw the word narcissist around loosely. And that could be just somebody who’s self-absorbed, but he actually meets the Mayo Clinic definition. He didn’t physically abuse. However, emotional abuse has lasting scars.
Anne: And talking about emotional and psychological abuse, which the court doesn’t recognize. And so there’s no way to protect your kids through the courts, because of the current climate of not recognizing it. And so that’s why we have a workshop that teaches women how to strategically face co-parenting with a narcissistic ex.
So let’s talk about court and the problems that happened in court regarding the payment. Even though you had children a hundred percent of the time. And my guess is you had a ton of proof.
What You Need to Know About Family Court When co-parenting With a Narcissistic Ex
Tammy: First of all, depending on what state you are in, you may or may not have a dedicated family court system. Now, why is that important? In my particular case, there was no dedicated family court. So therefore, you would have judges just rolling off the criminal bench. And now they’re like, Oh, hello, I’m in the courtroom. And now let’s talk about family law. My ex was a chief financial officer, a very good looking man, very articulate.
Who would be able to go into court and look the part and talk the part. And he was able to twist all sorts of things so that the judge would actually have some compassion for him, and why he was not paying his child support payments or behind, in paying his spousal support payments.
And in the judge’s eyes, you can imagine, right? They’re just coming off the criminal court system, where there are many very dark things that happen. So then when you’re just looking at someone, Oh, you’re behind on your child support payments, and here’s the reason for it: they have a level of compassion that they should not have.
And the courts are very clunky. He wasn’t paying. So now I’m financially feeling that impact of not having that income.
And now you’ve got increased expenses, because now your attorney says, I need another $5,000. I need another $10, 000. And they want their payment right away, or they’re not going to work for you. So now your expenses are increasing at a time your revenue or your income is decreasing.
Playing keep away with court dates
Tammy: And it’s not like you’re going to get an answer in five minutes. You might file something with the courts, and they might not hear it for months. And then just as it’s coming up, and he did this to me a lot, and actually because I had the children a hundred percent of the time, I moved states for my career.
And even though the children and I lived in Colorado. I always had to catch a plane to go back to where he was domiciled, to go to court. It’s so frustrating. I had paid for my plane ticket.
I had my attorney completely prepped for the hearing, so you paid all that attorney preparation time. I’m paying for the hotel room, and I’d get a call at 10:00 o’clock at night from my attorney. Oh, by the way, they’re continuing the hearing. A narcissistic parent will do that on purpose.
A narcissist is going to do that in order to mess with you. If they really had a good reason to continue in the hearing, they would have done it before I ever got on that plane. So that was just another tactic to interfere with my life. This would just go on and on. One of my hearings took over two years for them to consider child support.
So people should understand. It’s not like, yay, I get my day in court. No, even when you have your day in court, the ruling, I’ve been on cases that I’ve testified, and the ruling doesn’t come until a year later.
No Matter What Your Attorney Or The Law Says, A Narcissistic Co Parent Doesn’t Play By The Rules
Anne: It seems to always benefit the abuser and never the victim, just in general. If you want a rule, which there are no rules, right? Because it can go any way, but the likelihood of it benefiting the abuser is much higher than the likelihood of it benefiting the victim.
Tammy: Absolutely.
Anne: That’s the scary part. And I think the other issue is enforcement, because no matter what the ruling says, when you’re co-parenting with a narcissistic parent, enforcing it will be another part of the problem.
Tammy: I’m on the case right now, where one party should pay my fees, as well as my client’s attorney fees. Now, there’s even a ruling that says that has to happen. I still haven’t received my payment. So I know exactly what you’re saying happens. The cases that end up in court and end up in court for years, always one of the parties is a narcissist. Because no one else wants to spend that kind of energy, time, and resources.
In fact, my attorney would always say it’s cheaper for him to pay you than to pay his attorney and get the ruling, because the rulings would go in my favor, but it’s a year and a half later or two years later. So in the meantime, I’m struggling. So it is absolutely an abuse tactic. And I said to my attorney, I don’t think you understand.
Playing “Their Game:” Co-Parenting With a Narcissistic Parent
Tammy: This is not a matter of it’s less expensive for him to pay me outright. This is a game. I promise you that when you’re co-parenting with a narcissist, this is a game.
Anne: It’s a power play, and they like it. They’re the opposite of normal people, who think that chaos and spending money to hurt people is not enjoyable. There’ve been times where he comes into court so happy. And that always surprises me. It shouldn’t, but it’s really interesting to me. The victim is so overwhelmed. Not necessarily disheveled, because women can show up well put together.
So that’s not what I’m saying, but she’s clearly not enjoying this. And he is enjoying it. What are your thoughts about why these types of abusers enjoy it? Especially after your own personal experience?
Tammy: Having experienced it myself, I promise you the abuser walks in almost like a saunter. It’s interesting to see it. I’ve seen the narcissist put their arm around the back of the chair of their attorney, and they sit back and are absolutely at ease.
And of course, this guy says he has no money, but here’s evidence he actually does. Yeah, it’s a game, and it’s a way to still exert control. Because in a relationship when you’re still together, whether dating or married. There’s a level of control that happens.
And I remember my attorney said to me the day we actually officially divorced, “I’m worried about you.”
getting a warning from my attorney
Tammy: And I said, “Why would you be worried about me? He’s never hit me. He’s never done anything physical to me.”
He said, “I’m telling you right now, he no longer has control over you, and he will seek it in some manner.” And that’s what he did. So instead of being able to abuse me emotionally in our home every day, the only way to exert control and abuse over me was through the court system. And he used it. It truly is a weaponization of the court system.
Anne: Yeah, it’s legal abuse that the legal system is willingly and actively participating in. Now, does that mean I think they are knowingly doing that? No, I don’t think the judges are like, I know he’s abusive, and that’s fine. But they are making the abuse worse for the victims, and it’s unfortunate they’re not aware of that. They become extensions of the abuse in some way.
Tammy: They do. And these judges have many cases on their docket. People have their “right” to their day in court. So when you file a petition, when you file motions, you have a right to that. Yes, the abusers know that. A lot of times I’ve seen cases where people are behind in paying their child support payments. All of a sudden, the day before court, like I’ve seen cases where people are behind over $100,000 in paying child support. And then the day before court to compel them to pay, they might pay like $30, 000.
And so then you’re like, Oh, okay, well they made an effort. So it absolutely is a system where the narcissist can continue to abuse victims who are co-parenting.
Caught Between A Rock And A Hard Place: Pressure To Settle When co-parenting with A Narcissist In Court
Anne: Can we talk about what I would like to deem as unethical pressure? A victim’s attorney will put on her to settle, which might be in her best interest, rather than spending another $150, 000 going to court in attorney fees. This happened with me, and I am still upset about it. We didn’t even present anything to the court. Like a motion or even a defense or anything. And my attorney said, “That will cost you $150, 000 in attorney fees. So why don’t we just shut this down now and only pay $40, 000 in attorney fees?
In the process, I got zero things that I wanted, like literally zero. So the only thing I paid the attorney fees for was to basically wrap up the case. So I didn’t have something in court happening. I knew I had all the proof on my side, but it was too expensive for me to do it. And the attorneys knew it. Lose, because even if I won, I was still out $150, 000 that I did not have. So can you talk about that rock and a hard place that victims are in, and how their attorneys end up traumatizing women in this process?
Tammy: You’re absolutely correct. This is the dilemma that happens. The fact that an attorney will sit down with their client and say, “Listen, we’re going to go to court and we’re going to lose on things.”
Winning in court of appeals but losing anyway
Tammy: We’ll go to court, and we’ll win on things that you thought there’s no way we’ll win. It’s hard to tell what could happen in a case with a with a narcissist. Certainly you have prior case history, but the courts are always evolving. And so it’s never a hundred percent sure. That’s why in my particular situation, we even went to the court of appeals, because the lower court judge who had rolled off the criminal bench didn’t understand family law, and actually made an error in the ruling. And so that was an additional expense.
Now I’m fortunate, this is not the case most of the time. My attorney firm believed so strongly that the judge had made a mistake. They said, “We’re going to fund most of this.” Cause it was tens of thousands of dollars, and they wanted it because it was prestigious, and for their law firm to go before the court of appeals and actually win.
And we did win in the court of appeals. But again, now you’re talking about another year. Had, I had to make that decision myself and foot the entire bill. There’s no way. I would have had to live with the judges error in the ruling. But even though the attorney firm I worked with was willing to do that, it was remanded to the lower court.
And let me tell you, it can really annoy the judge that now you appealed them and you have to continue to be in front of that judge. They can retaliate against you in their rulings. And so even though I won in the court of appeals, in reality, I did not.
Why Is The Law So Unpredictable When Co-Parenting With A Narcissist?
Anne: Can you talk about why the law is so unpredictable?
Tammy: Back when I divorced, there weren’t a lot of statutes, and that was back when whoever had the bigger, better hired gun would win in the court system. Now, I will say the courts have improved on some level in that there are far more statutes that they follow. So it is better, but it’s still not where it needs to be. Case law can affect things. Back when I got divorced, if you got divorced with the exact same case facts in a different county or in front of a different judge, you could get an entirely different ruling.
It’s just that it’s a very old, archaic system that has a lot of things that need improvement. Because, like I said, the landscape is they really want 50/50 parenting.
Anne: Yeah, in Utah, we just passed Om’s’s law, which is similar to Caden’s law. Are you aware of that law?
Tammy: I don’t think I am.
Anne: Where are you?
Tammy: I’m in Colorado.
Anne: So you guys passed it too.
Tammy: Okay.
Anne: It made reunification therapy illegal. And the reason why is because abusers and narcissistic co parents are using it. I mean, it’s just an abuser tactic. So, now they’ve just renamed it a different name, and they still do it. There’s no way to stop them, because now it has a different name, and they’re still court ordering it. Even though it’s against the law, and also against the law in Colorado.
Passing Laws to protect children
Anne: We try to run it here about emotional and psychological abuse. Because at least two cases were here, and you had one recently, someone who was never physically abusive, ever, then murdered people. Yours was with the dentist who murdered his wife. It is called Caden’s Law in Colorado, and it was passed in 2023. It protects children from abuse in custody cases. And this would be at play with the money situation if he gets less custody.
Because then he would need to pay more, and I feel like there’s two things happening with abusers. There’s just the control, they like the control. But the second part is that they want the most custody to pay the least amount of child support. And so the kids get to their house, and thtey neglect them at their home. They don’t think, “Wait, I’m going to have to actually do something with these children.”
Tammy: Absolutely.
Anne: They just want to have the most amount of parent time possible, because all they see is the paycheck to their ex. And a narcissist would rather make their kids miserable at their house, neglecting them, than pay their ex any child support.
Tammy: Absolutely, because the child support formula, at least in Colorado, is based on the income of mom, income of dad, who pays the health insurance, because that ends up getting split. And so if one person pays it, that’s factored into the child support calculation. And then obviously time with mom and with dad.
Time Is Money When Co-Parenting With a Narcissist
Tammy: Yes, more time if it’s a 50/50 split. Child support ends up being pretty low actually here in the state of Colorado. Whereas, if mom has predominantly far more time, the child support calculation certainly increases considerably. And when the children are with dad, homework isn’t done. Or they get dropped off at school late, you know, things like that.
Anne: We don’t recommend trying to get a parenting coordinator or custody evaluator when co-parenting with a narcissist, because that’s another avenue for him to abuse her. So if he messages her, and she won’t do what he wants, because the parenting plan says no, right? You’re supposed to pick up on Wednesdays, and he’s like, no, I want to pick up on Thursdays. Then he can go through the parenting coordinator, and the parenting coordinator will make her do it. That’s why we’re like, don’t even use a parenting coordinator. We do not recommend it at all.
So one of the things that I’ve often either asked women that I talked to, or I’ve thought myself, is, “If you were a billionaire, would you want to remain married to this person?” Pretty much everyone I’ve asked says, “No, I wouldn’t. Because I want to continue being a stay at home mom.”
Or “Because I want to continue to homeschool.” I’m not a homeschooler, but other women have wanted to do that. Their life is drastically changing in a way they can’t control. And so finances are such an important piece of that puzzle.
Financial Strangulation: What You Need To Know And How To Be Strategic
Tammy: Absolutely, it’s incredibly frustrating, because what can happen in a divorce with a narcissist is what’s called financial strangulation. And the other side can do that, especially if you have a working spouse, and then the other is a stay at home spouse. And so they’ll cut off bank accounts or credit cards. So it can cut off people’s access to cash or the ability to leave the situation. Here I have four college degrees, but at the time I divorced, I was a stay at home mom because we supported his career to advance.
And it helped him. It didn’t help me personally. And then I had to raise my children a hundred percent, but also get back into the workforce. And it’s very scary.
Anne: I recently saw two cases where the ex was extremely wealthy. When I say extreme, I mean extreme. The women ended up with hardly anything, because he shut down bank accounts or moved money around, spent a lot of money, or ended up scaring her so badly that she did not get what she was entitled to. And the lawyers in her case were like, do you want to spend four more or five more years? I think there’s a disconnect between what you’re legally entitled to, like this is the law.
And then actually spending the money to get it, and there’s no way around that. That’s what our Living Free strategies are about in our workshop that teaches women. This is strategically how to deal with them.
Dealing with financial control
Anne: And it might mean that you leave a bunch of money that you’re entitled to on the table. So that he doesn’t abuse you anymore.
Tammy: Exactly what you’re saying. If one person has control over the credit cards, has control over bank accounts, take out a credit card right now in your name only. You can use the household income. So you can get a higher credit limit. Financial strangulation is a real thing. Because to have an attorney represent you, you have to pay the attorney, and to pay your bills, you have to have financial resources.
Like you’re saying. Women say, “I don’t even qualify for rent. No one will rent to me because I don’t have a credit score history.”
Some landlords want the full lump sum right away, and people don’t have financial resources to do that. It’s rare that people have financial resources, because like you’re saying, most people are just getting by.
Anne: In a defense case, like if you’re charged with a crime, you at least get the public defender, but there is no version of a public defender in divorce.
Tammy: What’s supposed to happen is that once a petition for dissolution has been filed, everything has to be status quo. So you’re not allowed to change beneficiaries. You’re not allowed to drop people from health insurance policies. You’re not allowed to do all these things. But abusers will do that. And do you have the ability to say they were wrong? Yeah, but it requires financial resources to pay the attorney to get in front of the judge.
co-parenting with A Narcissist: what to do when he Isn’t Following The Law And You Can’t Afford A Fight
Anne: And think that’s the main problem that I see repeatedly with attorneys is they’ll tell the victims, well, this is the law. He can’t do that. I think the court isn’t recognizing that he IS doing it. I remember my attorney saying, “Once this is signed” and I’m just laughing now. “You don’t need to worry, because this is what the parenting plan says.”
And I was like, “The second I sign it and he signs it, the case is over. But I can literally scrunch it up and throw it in the garbage can because he’s not going to follow it.”
Tammy: Correct, a narcissistic parent, doesn’t follow it. Even when I went through my divorce, he tried to have a good appearance in front of the kids. He would say, “I’m going to pick up the kids at five o’clock for dinner.” So I would make plans to go out with girlfriends, or maybe go on a date, and lo and behold, it’s eight o’clock and he still hasn’t picked them up.
He might keep them overnight on a Friday night and he would say, ” They’re sick.”
And I’m like, “It’s Saturday.”
He goes, “I don’t know who their pediatrician is. I don’t know who to call.” So, back to the beginning of our conversation. I was fortunate that I had the kids a hundred percent of the time. Because had they been with their dad, they would have missed a lot of things. He didn’t know who their pediatrician was.
He purposely creates exhaustion
Tammy: And it actually would have been for me personally, not even the children. I know I would have gone through him not picking up the kids when he said he was or not dropping them off. In fact, when I moved states for a job, he had the children that day. And he knew I had to get on the road at a decent hour.
Our exchange time was 5 o’clock, because I had many hours to go before I could get to a hotel. He didn’t bring the kids back that night until 11 o’clock, and I had to get on the road that late. What are you going to do? How litigate that in court?
You know, that was just another way to exhaust me, which is terrible, right? He purposely kept the kids until 11 o’clock that night. I was exhausted. So, I know that I was fortunate that I got my children 100 percent of the time. Because I would have had that day in and day out, that type of abusive situation of not following the parenting plan at all.
Anne: So it’s hard to be like the parenting plan will help, or in my own personal case, my attorney would say, “Did you see the draft, was it okay?”
And I was like, “I’ll just sign anything. I don’t even care what it says, because it does not matter.”
Tammy: Because you know who that person is. There’s got to be more education within the court system.
Why Having A Strategy For Co-Parenting With A Narcissistic Parent Is So Important
Tammy: I remember going to a therapist who specialized in narcissists right after I divorced, because I was quite broken emotionally. I remember the therapist saying to me, “You know, that tool belt you have to interact with other people? You need to take that off and set it aside, because it doesn’t apply with a narcissist.”
I remember almost having this sigh of relief hearing those words, to know that there was someone who absolutely understood what I was going through. Because you can’t explain, like other people, even my girlfriends, who I love dearly, they would say, “Why does he do that? Why can’t the court see what he is doing?”
And I would say, “Here’s the thing, you’re trying to use that tool belt of normal conflict management or normal personal interaction, but that tool belt does not apply with a narcissist. You have to take that off and throw it away because we are talking about an entire new set of circumstances. And they don’t play by the rules. It’s all playing to win. It’s a game.”
And it’s sad. I actually believe, this is in hindsight, that my ex husband saw my goodness, and he saw my light, and he wanted what I have. He wanted my view of the world. And so because he couldn’t have it, he was going to make sure I was just beat down to the ground.
He uses legal abuse
Tammy: Unfortunately, it took until my daughter turned 18 before I finally could have a life where I could live without him in it. In the court system, you’re tied to them until they’re 18 years old. And so he could use the courts to abuse me up until that time. Just like you’re saying, they view the courts as an extension of a way to abuse you. At the time, I looked at it as, I’m doing this on behalf of my children. My children have a right to this money. I took him to court to get him to pay, but he always took me to court to reduce my child support.
A narcissistic parent is going to lie. And a lot of them are quite successful individuals. My ex was a chief financial officer, because they can use their charisma to move up the corporate ladder to be business owners.
I had one case where, “Oh, I make $80, 000 a year.” And I told the judge, “No, he makes $480, 000 a year.” The judge absolutely took my report in its entirety. During COVID, where people got those PPP loans, that was a huge abuse in the court system. Because these business owners, maybe their revenue had gone down. But now their employee expenses were zero, because the government through the PPP loan paid for that, but they still got to deduct those expenses.
The court system is a gauntlet of pain
Tammy: So these narcissists ran to court, and told the judge, stop my child support. Look, my business is in the red. In reality, it wasn’t. Their revenue was down, but their expenses were zero. You have to be careful of these people who run to the court seeking relief from their child support payments. In reality, they were doing just fine financially because of these loans. And I know the shortcomings of the court system.
Anne: The court system is this gauntlet of pain.
Tammy: If you’re going into a court system and thinking it’s going to solve your problems, it’s not. Are there glimmers of hope and are there things that can happen? Yes, you’ve got this legal system, but then you’ve got the emotional situation you’re going through And certainly there’s a financial situation. You have to have a multi-pronged approach to resolve it.
And that’s why, the beauty of you offering a course to women to help heal them and give them tools in other avenues to deal with this narcissist. Even recently, I saw my ex husband, because my oldest daughter, my middle child, just got married. You’ll continue to see them at birthdays, graduations, weddings.
The Court System Is Not Going To Solve Your Problems with A Narcissistic parent: Build A Support System
Tammy: The tools that you offer in order to be able to deal with them, they’re invaluable going forward. You can get to the other side, but you need an incredible support system. You cannot do this alone. I would always say to my girlfriends, I swear I’d be six feet under if it weren’t for them. Because they were the ones that saw my beauty. They were the ones who saw my strength. They were the ones that were my greatest cheerleaders, who said, “Get up, dust yourself off. You can do this another day.”
So I really believe having an effective support in place was key for me to be able to get to the other side of this. I could never get to the other side alone.
Anne: Going through the court in some way or another, you’ll have to have a legal document that you sign to be divorced.
Tammy: Correct.
Anne: There’s no way around it. Now, the way I got my kids completely free of my ex, we didn’t go to court, but he signed a legal document. So, I’m not saying that will work for everyone, there’s no guarantees. But, there’s no way around the legal ramifications and some type of legal process. And, you can do a DIY. You can have a BTR coach help you. You can hire an attorney. There are multiple avenues to do this, but you have to do it.
There’s No Way Around It: You Need A Good Team and A Good Strategy
Anne: And so, no matter how terrible it is, or miserable or hopeless, having the right team a trauma informed divorce coach like we have here. We mostly deal with things like strategy and emotions. How to keep yourself centered, thought strategies that you can use so that you can actually function. I think the hopeful part is that this is one of the hardest things you’ve ever done. You can get through it, you will survive co-parenting with a narcissist.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and our team will be there for you. No matter what the outcome is, you will survive and your kids will be okay. I think that’s what I’m trying to land on. For all of us who have been through it, and we’re looking back. We know that will happen, but it’s very hard to feel that when you’re going through it.
Tammy: It is. There’s no other way, especially when you have children, because the courts require you to have the parenting plans and whatnot. But there is light at that other side, but you must walk through this process. And that’s why, just as you stated, it’s important that professionals are in place. Who will help you on several fronts to navigate this environment, legally, as well as personally, emotionally, spiritually, all of that. The more of a support system you can have in place, the better chance of your success.
Anne: Well, thank you so much, Tammy, for spending time to talk with us today. I appreciate you.
Tammy: I have enjoyed my time with you. Thank you so much for having me on your show.
The Risk From Marriage Infidelity Counseling No One Shares
Dec 16, 2025
If you’re considering marriage infidelity counseling, you’re not alone. Most women in crisis start here, Googling late at night, hoping a professional can finally make sense of what’s happening in their marriage. Counseling can help in the right situation, but there are some realities women wish they had known before scheduling that first session.
5 Things to Know Before Starting Marriage Infidelity Counseling
Here are five things every woman should understand before going:
1. Counseling Follows the Story You Bring Into the Room
Most marriage infidelity counseling isn’t designed to identify emotional or psychological abuse. Counselors are trained to help with communication, reconnection, and repairing trust, not spotting betrayal trauma in relationships, coercion, or chronic deception. So if you walk in unsure of what’s happening, the therapist often follows your frame, even if something much more serious is going on under the surface.
2. Couple Counseling Can Accidentally Reward His Manipulation
Women often tell me they felt worse after marriage infidelity counseling, not because the therapist was unkind, but because the process unintentionally gave their husband new ways to twist the narrative. Men who are actively lying, hiding, or manipulating can look reflective, apologetic, and “committed to change,” while the woman who has been mistreated looks exhausted, overwhelmed, or reactive. The result? He’s praised. She’s pathologized.
3. Marriage Infidelity Counseling Can’t Fix a Pattern It Can’t See
Many counselors assume both people tell the truth. They rely on transparency, good faith, and mutual honesty, qualities your husband may not bring to the table. If the root issue is chronic lying, coercion, or secret-keeping, no amount of worksheets, empathy-building exercises, or compromise strategies will solve the real problem.
4. You May Leave With More Confusion Instead of Answers
Thousands of women have come to BTR after months or years of marriage infidelity counseling, saying the same thing: “It didn’t get better. I was just blamed more.” When a therapist can’t name the deception, the blame shifts onto the woman, her “communication style,” her “triggers,” her “expectations.” They might recommend other treatment programs, like addiction recovery or codependents anonymous. You end up working harder, while he becomes more skilled at hiding the truth.
5. You Deserve Clarity Before marriage infidelity Counseling—Not After
If you’re already exhausted, confused, or walking on eggshells, you don’t need more pressure. You need tools, language, and a framework to understand what you’re actually facing—before deciding whether marriage infidelity counseling is the right path. That clarity protects you. It also prevents you from spending months (or years) trying to repair something you didn’t break.
A simple place to start is The After Infidelity Free Email Course, a private way to explore the patterns so you can walk into any counseling environment fully informed. Or, if you want deeper guidance at your own pace, the Living Free Workshop gives you the tools I wish someone had handed me the first time I stepped into a marriage infidelity counseling office.
Transcript: The Risk From Marriage Infidelity Counseling No One Shares
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Sarita. She went to marriage infidelity counseling, and was unaware of the risks. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. Here’s what Sarita said.
Sarita: “I wish that I had found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast before I tried therapy and spent thousands of dollars. Your podcast, is what I needed.”
Sarita: We were young. We started dating when I was 19. As a young girl, it looked like he just had some anger problems. When he would get really angry, he would walk around the school and actually punch the walls.
When Pastoral marital Counseling Misses The Hidden Patterns
Sarita: My very first step actually was trying to do counseling with our pastor. This was probably about a year and a half into our marriage. I really noticed him drift from God. That’s what it seemed like at the time.
Because prior to that, he was this alleged devoted Christian. He would wake up early in the morning and do his devotions and pray. And I started to actually get worried about him, thinking, “Oh no, like, is he depressed?
Is he struggling in his faith?” I wanted to come alongside him as the wife. “What can I do for you? How can I love you, support you, pray for you, and make your life easier?” And I didn’t realize what was happening back then. We started doing marriage infidelity counseling with our pastor, and that was the worst idea on the planet. I did not know that, obviously.
Anne: Because that’s the most common thing people suggest when someone’s having “relationship problems.” People will suggest couple therapy. So can you talk about how that went?
Sarita: I never really felt heard. I felt like our pastor made a lot of excuses for him. What we did in counseling was watch this video series by Paul Tripp. I remember feeling frustrated after each session, just not feeling like we were getting anywhere. I felt like there was a lot of downplaying, a lot of blaming me, and a lot of, “Oh, he’s just really struggling in his faith. He’s really broken, and he needs your support. He needs your love. He needs your help.”
Why Marriage Infidelity Counseling Often Leaves Women More Confused
Sarita: The responsibility was all on me, not on him. There were many excuses for him. We both actually decided marriage infidelity counseling was not working. And we decided to stop going. We actually found a church an hour away, so we decided to check it out, and we loved it. That church was going to save our marriage. And so we actually moved an hour away to be part of this church.
Anne: How did that go?
Sarita: Not good. It ended up being years and years of spiritual abuse symptoms from this church, a lot of gaslighting, pounding passages into my head, about how you’re going to help save your husband. Just pray for him and love him through your actions, and stop constantly trying to say things to him.
Peter 3, verse 1, “Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.”
Anne: Wow, that’s quite the interpretation of that. Why in the world would God tell anybody not to fear something frightening? God doesn’t want us to submit to evil. The interpretation of that doesn’t even make sense.
The Burden Placed On Wives In Spiritual Communities
Sarita: Exactly, so that is the passage that was drilled into my head for years and years. Win him without a word. Just basically be as perfect as you humanly can. As a wife make sure you are upkeeping the house, taking care of the children, removing every possible stressor at home for him, so that he doesn’t explode on you.
I remember friends telling me, Sarita, it’s actually absurd to me to think about how much time you spend cleaning and cooking, because your house is always spotless. And we had four kids in four years. I was always pregnant or always nursing. He pretty much always came home to a warm home-cooked meal. I took care of everything for him. I took care of finances and scheduled marriage infidelity counseling. Throughout this time, he actually almost killed me. He went to jail for that.
I came to the elders and my mentor, and I told them, look, this is where I’m at. So I am feeling a lot of bitterness. My husband has no empathy. I do not feel an ounce of empathy anymore for him. And I need help, because I want to forgive him. I want to care about what’s going on with him, but I just don’t anymore. I don’t want to stay in this place. Can you please help me?
And then one week after, our elders came to our house with papers in their hands, and gave us papers of church discipline. The church disciplined him for emotional abuse, harshness with his wife, not stepping up as a husband. The church disciplined me for unforgiveness and bitterness toward him.
Anne: Wow.
Sarita: And so that was a really big slap in the face.
i cried myself to sleep desperate for help
Anne: Yeah.
Sarita: Because it was like, I came to you desperate for help, seeking marriage infidelity counseling, and telling you I don’t want to stay in this place. Instead, you slapped me with church discipline.
Anne: Did you know of any pornography use and infidelity at the time?
Sarita: Oh yeah, he was very cold, extremely cold. I remember feeling like he hated me. I remember begging him in tears almost every night to just come to bed with me. Telling him like, “I love you, I want to spend time with you,” And I remember him essentially telling me to “F” off. And I would cry myself to sleep. This went on for years. And he watched pornography or played video games. I actually remember having to hide finances from him. If I didn’t hide that money, it would be completely gone.
He woke me up many times in the middle of the night. There was a lot of sexual coercion. And I remember telling him, no, I’m not ready for another baby right now. The way I actually conceived our fourth child was marital rape. I obviously would never take back that baby ever. Every pregnancy of mine, I was on bedrest, in mass amounts of pain. He did not care. My body was his, and he essentially owned it. He was going to make sure he got what he needed.
I remember many times asking him “Hey, honey. Are you doing okay? Like how is the pornography use going? Is there anything I can do as your wife to support you?” I am willing to basically be your object. If you would stop betraying me.
Why Marriage Infidelity Counseling Misses Emotional and Sexual Coercion
Sarita: I actually was always available. “We can do this, I’m here. I’m not going to tell you no.” I used to try to initiate a lot, and he would turn me down nearly every single time, and it was crushing.
Anne: Did the church encourage this idea that you needed to be available for sex all the time?
Sarita: It was very much within the teachings of our church. As the wife, you should be available to your husband, unless you are sick, or unless you have a valid reason.
Anne:I don’t want to is not a valid enough reason, apparently.
Sarita: Yes, exactly. And the only times that I ever actually turned him down were when I was pregnant and in tons of pain. Because I knew if he doesn’t do it here, he will go somewhere else.
Anne: You probably didn’t recognize at the time, that going to marriage infidelity counseling was a form of resistance. You were trying to get him to be kind to you. You were trying to stop his behavior from hurting you. And this is what they told you would make the situation better. But my guess is you didn’t recognize it as a form of resistance at the time.
Sarita: Yeah, no I didn’t. It was just me doing my Biblical duty as a wife. When we conceived our fourth child, I remember coming forward to the elders, and they did sit down with us and say, “No means no.” Like you cannot rape your wife. It was like a slap on the wrist. There was no comfort or reprieve. It was just, he got you pregnant, now you gotta deal with it.
Why Exposure, Church Discipline, And Marital Infidelity Counseling Doesn’t Make Him Safe
Sarita: That is when his behaviors actually escalated. He had been hiding behind this mask for so many years. Especially with this church community and with our friends and family. That he was this Christian man with these values and morals.
And he loved his wife and took care of his family. And I think when people started to see through it, he finally felt peace to be who he was. He started a lot of drinking, hanging out with very questionable people. And he stopped going to church. going on dating sites, hookup sites, and granted, it could have started before.
Anne: So the second the church situation wasn’t helping him exploit you anymore, he was done with it.
Sarita: Pretty much, yep, if they were going to expose him, he just didn’t come anymore.
Anne: I want to stress that, because so many women are like, if someone would discipline him, then we might get help. And then maybe our marriage could be good. But often when that happens, when he’s exposed through marriage infidelity counseling, things don’t get better, they actually get worse. My guess is, you never would have guessed back then that discipline would have made it worse.
Sarita: I thought the church, the congregation, would step up. I was sitting in church alone with my four children, everyone looking at me, everyone avoided me like the plague.
Anne: It’s so awful. I’m so sorry. So for our listeners who are thinking like, “Oh, if I could get a diagnosis or if I could get someone to explain to him how bad this is,” he already knows what he’s doing. He knows what’s going on. Nobody tells a woman that.
When Marriage Infidelity Counseling Professionals Know the Truth but Don’t Tell the Victim
Anne: They all say you just need couple therapy or marriage infidelity counseling, and you need to get him help and be understanding with him.
Sarita: And they don’t realize how damaging couple therapy actually is. Especially for the victim, but even for him, because it enables him. And when you said you don’t need a diagnosis, I had begged him to go see a psychiatrist, and he finally did. And they actually interviewed me too.
They wanted to know what my take on things was. And the psychiatrist at the time was heavily leaning toward antisocial personality disorder. So sociopathy, he went to probably two or three visits with that doctor. And I think by the time he realized what they were coming to, that was when he said, “I’m not going back.”
I remember the psychiatrist telling me, I think this is what we are dealing with. And what’s wild is that I met my mentor from back then. I told her that and she said, oh yeah, that’s not a surprise to me at all. Me and the pastors used to always say that he was absolutely a sociopath.
Anne: What!
Sarita: And I just remember thinking like you guys knew years ago when we were in marriage infidelity counseling and you didn’t tell me.
Anne: And also, you didn’t say, hey, how can we support you, to get to safety? Did anyone ever ask you that?
Sarita: Nope.
Anne: Yeah, that’s That is super, super alarming.
Sarita: She ended up blaming me. I asked her. I said, why didn’t you guys tell me that? And she said, I don’t think you would have listened.
Anne: She never gave you the opportunity to listen.
People don’t understand what it is like to be an abuse victim
Sarita: Right, you never gave me the chance, and it doesn’t matter whether I would have listened in marriage infidelity counseling, or not. It was your responsibility to say something. You don’t get to decide what you think I’m gonna hear.
Anne: As an advocate, I observe women continually trying to get to safety through marriage infidelity counselint, and sometimes they don’t feel like what I’m telling them is the safest option. At the time, they might say something like, “He’s not really abusive,” And I believe it’s because that feels too unsafe, because the things they’re describing are definitely abuse.
That’s why many people disagree with our stance here at BTR that betrayal is abuse. But I still say it anyway, despite the fact that they don’t think it’s abuse or think I’m being too harsh because this guy is a good guy or something. I don’t think people understand what it’s like to be an abuse victim trying to get to safety and not getting the right information from anybody.
Sarita: Exactly, that’s exactly what I do now. Like, when I’m talking with other women about their situation, whether they’re currently in it, or they just came out of it, I will say that to them, you do realize that is abuse. And some of them will say, no, they’ll explain why he acted that way.
And I’m always like, No. I can guarantee you that if we really look at this deeper, this has been going on for a long time. And so I think it’s a lot more helpful to just come out and say no, that is abuse. What you said, I have a lot of people too that disagree with me. They’ll think, or they’ll say, it feels like you just call everything abuse.
I finally found out about everything
Anne: Yeah, I have people say that to me too.
Sarita: Yeah, and not quite. Once you understand it and once you see it, you cannot unsee it. You see it everywhere you go, in your family, in your friendships even, in your work, in acquaintances.
Anne: Yeah, it’s true. You cannot unsee it.
Sarita: Everything became much more exposed, I found out about the hookup sites. And I ended up having surgery when our newborn was six weeks old. And he actually left me with our four children. During the entire time, he was out getting wasted, doing who knows what. By the end of that month was when I came to find out about everything, and that is when I decided to leave. Before I finally left for good, he actually did go through a very short term addiction treatment, but he left early. He didn’t even graduate.
Anne: What type of addiction?
Sarita: Alcoholism, it took a matter of about a month before the mask started to fall off. I remember standing on my front porch, praying and getting this impression from God, where he essentially said to me, “I can save him, whether you are married to him or not. I’ve got this from here. You go and be free.” And I felt this physical release, oh my goodness, I can breathe. Because for years I had been told to save my husband.
I filed for divorce, and I felt a lot of grief. And I was heartbroken and destroyed. And then I decided I regretted it. So I was like, I’m going to save my marriage.
Seeing the Same Abusive Pattern in a Second Marriage
Sarita: It was this whole thing where he was actually supposed to break it off with his then girlfriend. And I was supposed to break it off with my then boyfriend, and I kept up my end of the deal. I initially left him in April, and by December he officially served me with papers. And then we divorced the following year.
Anne: So Sarita will now share what happened with her second marriage. So why don’t you just start at the beginning?
Sarita: I actually met him when I was 16 years old. He was in this friend group that my ex used to hang out with a lot. It was interesting, because back then I wasn’t attracted to him. On top of that, he was seven years older than me. As an adult now looking back, that’s weird. That he was comfortable hanging out with 16 and 17 year olds. Granted, nothing inappropriate ever happened between us back then.
When we were friends, I would talk to him about this relationship here and there. It was not often. There were a few times that he had given me advice. So his cousin died in a car accident. It was a really sad situation. But I went to the funeral and saw him like, good to see you, whatever, you know. Through the years, we very loosely kept in contact.
At one point in time, he came to a church event with me and my first husband. During that meeting, he showed me this list he carried around with him, of what he wants in a woman. And it was this bullet pointed list of brunette, she’s gotta have all these character traits, body traits, like eye color.
Anne: Was it mostly physical?
Doing everything possible to save this marriage: marriage infidelity counseling
Sarita: Yes, mostly physical. He did have some, she has to love the Lord, ’cause he did claim to be a believer. So there was stuff like that sprinkled in there, but it was really, this is my perfect woman, essentially.
Anne: Physically.
Sarita: Yeah, and I remember thinking back then, that’s weird. Like, so you’re not even willing to consider another woman outside of that.
Anne: But also not like, has a good sense of humor. Did it have anything about her personality?
Sarita: I don’t remember. His big points on there were like the physical traits. And then, like I said, she has to love the Lord. But it was almost like she has to love the Lord was like this added bonus, but he is looking for this woman that fits this perfect mold. I actually remember seeing his first wife on Facebook, and I used to comment on those posts like, “Oh my gosh, congratulations. I’m so happy for you. She’s beautiful.”
It was like friend to friend. I’m like, wow, I watched your journey with your first wife. So anyway, when my husband at the time, went through a treatment program. What do you know? His recovery coach was yep, my second ex. So I’m desperately trying to do everything I possibly can even with marriage infidelity counseling to save this marriage. I am so committed to this marriage and this man. I remember telling my future second husband, “Hey, please take care of him, please love on him, check in on him.” I actually worked at that treatment facility. He was in the men’s building, and then I was in the women’s building.
And he was like, “Yeah, absolutely I will.”
Dealing with separation at the same time
Sarita: He was going through a separation with his wife. During both of our first marriages, we’re dealing with separation simultaneously. And that was something that bonded us. My first marriage ended. Years later, I saw him in the parking lot, and I ran up to him. I gave him a hug. I was like, “I haven’t seen you in years. It’s so good to see you.” And at this time, we’re both single, and so I’m like, “We really should catch up sometime. It’s been so long.”
We went bowling, we went out to eat, and we just had a fun time. We played basketball. He was actually intentional about saying, “I am not interested, you’re a friend.” ‘Cause when we would go out to eat and stuff together as friends, people would be like, “Oh my gosh, you guys are such a cute couple.”
And I’m not kidding you, he would literally gag and be like, “Oh, no. I would never date her. She’s just a friend.”
Anne: Were you interested in him? Or were you like, this is great. I like being his friend. Was there a part of you that was like, well, if he wanted more, then I would want more too?
Sarita: I was actually seeing someone else during that summer. I liked just being friends.
Anne: Now you had seen his list of what I want in a woman. Did you fit some of that “criteria” at all? Or were you thinking in your mind well, of course that’s rude. But I can see why he’s not interested. ‘Cause I’ve seen his list and I’m not what he’s looking for. Did that enter your mind at all?
He was obsessed with my friend
Sarita: No, I really didn’t fit his list, other than he wanted a girl that was short and I had long black hair. I’m Asian Indian and have a slightly darker complexion. I’m not super dark, but tan. There were a couple of girls he was very interested in during the summer. One of them was a friend of mine. She had been like family to me for many years. He was just obsessed with her.
He would be like, can you please talk to her and see if she’ll go out with me, or just let me take her on a date? And I would always be like, no, I’m not doing that for you. Because if she already told you no, it’s a no. ‘Cause she was a bartender, and he would drink or whatever and try to talk to her. And I remember thinking back then, dude, take a hint.
He did this with her and another girl. I remember telling him you have to stop and give it a rest. And he was like, “I just wish they would give me a chance. I just wanna take them on a date, just one date.” And I’m like, “But the answer was no. So just move on.”
Anne: Looking back, do you think that he was maybe using you to get to her.
Sarita: Very possible.
Anne: Because these guys are so transactional, they’re not doing it just for “fun.” They have a goal in mind and they’re trying to accomplish that goal.
He asks to move into my house
Sarita: Exactly. I was dating other people and enjoying single life. He had his son during the last month of summer for a couple weeks. We got our kids together once, and we took them to the fair.
His son got sick at one point, and he reached out to me and asked, “What do I do?” I’m thinking he’s a single dad. He is trying so hard. He just needs a woman to show him that this is what you do when your kid’s sick. So at the end of summer, he called me out of nowhere and he goes, “When I was on the way home from dropping off my son, my car broke down.”
So his car’s stuck in a shop 12 hours away. He takes a plane back home, and he calls me and goes. “Can I stay with you while my car is getting worked on?” Because he actually lived with his parents. This is a 33-year-old man. And he lived a half hour from town, a half hour from where he worked. And so he goes, “Would you be okay with me staying in the living room? I’ll sleep on the floor. I don’t know how I’ll get to work every day, because my car’s stuck in the shop. I don’t have money to fix it right now, and I can’t get a ride to and from work every day.”
There was that little voice that was like, “I don’t know how I feel about this. This is kind of a big ask.” I’m a single mom, and I’m thinking “I’m just not really sure if I’m comfortable with this.”
I realize he’s using me
Sarita: I ended up ignoring that small voice, and I was like, “I guess if it’s only for a few weeks, I don’t have a bedroom, I don’t have anything. You can sleep on the living room floor.”
And he was like, “That’s totally fine.”
And because we both worked at the same place, he expected me to take him to work every day. It was a perfect setup. He was just using me. I did not work every day. I was actually technically on call. So there were many mornings when I was waking my kids up at 6, 6:30 in the morning, getting them ready so that we could take him to work.
It was a huge sacrifice for me to do this. He knew that and never expressed gratitude for it. He was like, thanks. That was it. He never offered to help pay bills. He never offered, can I give you 300 bucks to help cover the extra utilities? Like nothing.
Anne: Or even gas ’cause you’re driving him.
Sarita: Nope, he was very much like, I’m just using you and I’m not giving you anything in return. And so by the end of that month, I’m like, “Okay, what’s going on here?”
And he was like, “I’ve just been trying so hard to save up money to get my car fixed so that I can get it back.”
Anne: Maybe he lied about the car and it wasn’t even in the shop. Maybe he had to give it to his ex or something.
Where is his money going?
Sarita: Maybe. And so with that, of course I’m feeling guilt, he’s just trying to get outta this bind, and then I’m gonna be like, yeah, so can you help pay rent?
Anne: But he doesn’t have any other expenses.
Sarita: No, none. I’m sitting here thinking, how do you not have anything? Because you’ve been living with your parents for several years. Now you work two or three jobs. Where is all your money going? This isn’t adding up at all. It never did add up. He was supposed to move across the country to live by his son. I remember asking him, “I just don’t understand. I mean, you divorced almost three years. How do you not have the money to move?”
Anne: What were his excuses?
Sarita: He is essentially saying, “I’m the hero here of my son’s story, because I just don’t want him to grow up with all this pain and trauma. I wanted my son here with me, and I could have kept him here. I have spent a lot of time praying about this, and I knew that if my son grew up here, he would grow up with parents who fought all the time, even separated. And it wasn’t gonna be healthy for him.”
Anne: If it’s used for manipulation, that’s the definition of taking God’s name in vain. He’s saying he prayed about it and God told him to do this, when that wasn’t the case.
I realized I needed to leave
Sarita: Yes, yes that’s exactly it. After we married, I told him, “You didn’t feel peace from God. You felt relief, because then you didn’t have to be a father.” I said, “I would be homeless before I go without my kids.”
I finally knew that I needed to leave and that something needed to change when I was actually able to talk with his ex-wife on the phone a few times. I don’t think she could name it abuse. She would just name it as a bad fight. He grabbed her and threw her down to the floor. And another time, he held her up against the wall with his hand on her throat. And told her he was gonna pummel her face into the wall, things like that.
This is a lot more serious than what I thought. I didn’t even realize how bad this was. I remember bringing this up to him, and he of course was like, that never happened. And I don’t know why she even said that. He would admit to some of it, he wouldn’t admit to all of it. That’s when I was like, wow, this is serious.
At that time, we actually were headed for divorce. He filed, and were almost done with our divorce. Then we ended up getting back together. About two months later, I ended up pregnant. He was enraged. He told me it was my fault and apparently purposely got myself pregnant, accusation after accusation. Then he was like, “Is it even mine?”
He stormed around the house and pouted, and the silent treatment for two days. I remember him saying to me, “So are you and the kids gonna find somewhere to live then?”
He physically grabbed and shoved me
Sarita: I knew I had to go when he physically grabbed me and shoved me. I obviously will not say that. He’s like, “I just moved you.” And I’m like, “No, no, no.” The force and aggression behind that was a lot. I looked into his eyes when he did it. And I knew in that moment, he wants to kill me right now. I saw this look in his eye of I just wanna hurt you.
We moved the next morning with help from some of our church members and friends. They actually watched him and the way he was talking to me. And one of them later on ended up saying “I could see the abuse clear as day, just from how he was talking to you when we were moving. We could tell you were afraid of him. It was obvious.
I felt so filled with fear. There were multiple occasions that he would show up at the house. And he’d be like, “I’m sorry, I need to grab something from the garage quick,” or “I just need to do this.” And there was one time when I came home from work and there were flowers on my table. I had this eerie feeling of oh my gosh, he was in my home. And like he’s trying to do this supposedly sweet thing for me. But I am terrified.
After we separated, I was just looking for all the abuse resources out there. When I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, I remember feeling very seen.
There was an episode where another woman who married a couple of times. I thought, wow, this is not just me. I held a lot of shame around the fact that I didn’t learn the first time.
He made sure he looked good on paper
Sarita: I felt discredited for a long time. is the common denominator, she must be the problem. And that’s of course what many people think. They have no idea.
When I found your podcast, I just remember listening to that episode and being like, holy crap. Finally, someone else gets it. I loved that episode, and it was comforting to know you are not the only one. So if you’re listening to this and have been in an abusive marriage, or an abusive relationship, I would say look at your own story.
You’ll see a lot more clearly. You won’t have as much cognitive dissonance where his actions show you the complete opposite.
He was on this whole, “I’m changing, I promise.” And he purchased this $5,000 course for men who try to change. He was making sure that it looked really good on paper.
So he knows that one of my dreams one day is to have a huge ranch and have all these horses. So he’s like, “Honey, like I’m gonna work so hard so that you can have this dream.” He was just giving me this elaborate, “You deserve this. I wanna provide this for you, give this to you.”
Sarita: Listening to your podcast, I was heavily on abuse. I totally knew. You’re not actually changing. But I remember in the moment I was like, he is love bombing me. He was future faking me. This is all fake. I was able to see clearly. I totally knew. You are doing this so that you can tell everyone else, “I tried, look at all along the things I did. I spent thousands of dollars and I put in so much work going to therapy.”
I started to put up a lot of clear boundaries with him.
How Education About Abuse Succeeded Where Marriage Infidelity Counseling Failed
Sarita: He ended up signing away his rights during divorce. Because he kept pushing the whole, “Well, it’s not mine.” He already had it in his mind that I was this whore.
Anne: Well, or he is just lying and saying that to blame you as a tactic, that’s probably more what it was.
Sarita: I battled with. I don’t want all these people thinking I was messing around. But simultaneously, I also knew he’s probably already telling people that anyway. So like at this point, I might as well agree with him that this isn’t his baby and just move on. And my lawyer even said that because he could easily ask the judge for a paternity test, and the judge would grant it to him. So he’s not even putting in the effort or fight to make sure this is his child. Which my lawyer was like, “This tells me that he knows that it is. He just doesn’t want it to be.”
And I knew that too. You could put a little skin in the game of trying to get the paternity test. To ensure this is your kid, because he did the same thing with his last child. He put in no effort whatsoever.
Anne: But also, that benefited you. You don’t want them to put in the effort of marriage infidelity counseling.
Sarita: And I knew he wouldn’t. He didn’t take responsibility for his first son, so why would he take responsibility now? And my lawyer was like, look, I’ve worked with countless abuse victims. And he was like, if he doesn’t think he’s the father, let’s just let him think that.
Anne: Right, yeah, exactly.
Agreeing he’s not the father
Sarita: He reached out again to my lawyer and was like, “Are you sure she’s not willing to do a paternity test?” And my lawyer said, “No, she’s not willing.”
So he said, ” Well, that’s really unfortunate, but I guess, I’m just gonna have to assume that I’m not the father.”
And so my lawyer said to him, “Okay, we will agree with you that you are not the father of this child.” So then he signed the non-parentage statement.
Anne: Oh, wow.
Sarita: Yeah, he’s a ghost. The biggest thing with abuse and the hardest thing about it after my first marriage is that I wish I had found your podcast. I don’t think I would’ve found myself in another abusive marriage, because I think I would’ve seen it much more clearly.
Anne: Well, thank you Sarita, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your bravery and sharing your strength with other women.
Sarita: Yeah, Thank you so much. I appreciated it.
How To Set Boundaries With An Emotionally Abusive Husband – Elsa’s Story
Dec 09, 2025
Learning how to set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship may seem confusing and overwhelming.
Setting Boundaries With Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Establish Greater Safety
Have you ever tried to set boundaries expecting more safety and security, only to feel more exposed to harm than ever? That’s because traditional boundary-setting models simply don’t work in abuse scenarios.
Before I share what does work, here are a few resources:
To find out if your husband is emotionally abusive (and if you even need to set boundaries), Learn how to set boundaries, click here take myfree emotional abuse test.
If you discover that he is emotionally abusive, and you want to go more in depth into how to set boundaries, my Living Free Workshop uses visuals to teach women how to set boundaries through easy to follow steps.
Okay, so here’s what you need to know to set boundaries if your husband is emotionally abusive.
Effective Boundaries are:
Not communicated to the emotional abuser with words
Courageous actions that evolve to fit YOUR emotional safety needs
Essential to emotional and psychological safety
Setting Effective Boundaries Does Not Include:
If-then statements given to the abuser verbally or in writing
Stating your values or what you need
Telling him if he does it again, you’ll do something in response
How To Set Boundaries in My Emotionally Abusive Relationship?
Establishing effective safety boundaries is new territory for many women who find Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
If you’re wondering how to set boundaries, begin this process, ask yourself these questions:
What actions can I take today to begin creating more emotional & psychological safety for myself?
How will I learn effective strategies to keep expanding my emotional & psychological safety? The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches you step-by-step how to set boundaries effectively and maintain boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship.
Elsa, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, shares how she learned how to set boundaries with her emotionally abusive husband.
Transcript: How To Set Boundaries With An Emotionally Abusive Husband
Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Elsa and talk about how to set boundaries. Welcome Elsa.
Elsa: Thank you.
Anne: She’s been a podcast listener for a long time. It’s always an honor to have podcast listeners on. So thank you so much for supporting the podcast by listening to it. Let’s start with your story. Tell me about the beginning. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?
Elsa: When I first met him, two days in, he told me something that wasn’t the truth. But I thought, “Wow, how vulnerable. He told me he cheated on a past partner.” One partner, one time.It’s grooming. I had no idea what grooming was, it was a way to get me to trust him. I thought, “He was up front and told me this information. It’s all there is. All the skeletons are out of the closet.” And they weren’t.
Anne:If your husband is grooming, he makes you think, “No one who is a liar would tell me this . He must be telling the truth.” He tells a part of the truth that is the tip of the iceberg. If he told the truth, he’d say, “I look at pornography and masturbate every day. I’ve cheated on every partner. And I have every intention of cheating because I don’t want to be with one person.” But he doesn’t. He says just a tiny bit and then claims, “Now everything’s out on the table.”
When He Gives You The Impression You Don’t Need To Learn How To Set Boundaries
Elsa: It creates a false sense of safety, yeah.
Anne: Exactly, then you are left wondering what to do when your husband betrays your trust. Exactly, and it’s actually super scary because if it was before you were engaged, it’s really alarming that they think in these sick, twisted ways, like, “Oh, if I lie to her and she trusts me, that’s the kind of woman I wanna marry rather than a healthy person thinking, ” I would like a healthy relationship where we trust each other.”
And you had no concrete reasons to learn how to set boundaries.
Elsa: It was mind blowing that it was that planned and calculated. Before we married, I noticed some things regarding his behavior. There was an instance when he omitted some information. And I didn’t consider it abuse. I addressed it with him. He agreed and said I was right. I thought, that’s it. That’s solved. I felt like he heard me, and we moved on.
After we married, I noticed he was more contemptuous when I brought things to him. And that’s when I started to have some questions and feel quite out of sorts because it felt like such a change from when we were dating.
Anne: What was the nature of the information that he withheld?
Elsa: We hadn’t dated that long, and I had a trip planned with a couple of my girlfriends to go to Europe. I’d be away for a couple of months. He said, would you want to be exclusive? It was like a big yes for me. But I felt like communication was difficult during the trip. I felt like he was hard to pin down.
The Camping Trip Incident
He said he was going to go camping one weekend. I had this gut feeling that he may go camping with somebody he worked with. Who was quite a bit younger than him.
And I asked him if he did, and at first he said he went with just my dog because he was taking care of my dog. And then he said, “Oh, I went with some coworkers.” I found out the truth about six months later. That he had gone on a one-on-one camping trip with a 21 year old when he was in his mid thirties.
So that’s obviously a red flag. But at the time, I was already pretty invested. And he denied anything happened. At first he understood, but after a few days of listening to my concerns about him withholding that information, he pressured me to “get over it.” And I worked through it.
Anne: Yeah, under those circumstances, I would have been hard to figure out you needed to learn how to set boundaries. Did you ever find out later that there was something that happened between them?
Elsa: Exactly. Looking back now and the knowledge I have, I think he was grooming that co-worker. So I think it probably confused her quite a bit, if I was to put myself in her shoes. He told me she shot him down and said no.
Anne: Totally, so had he been able to, he would have.
Trickle Disclosure & Manipulation
Elsa: Yes, and he said that. Six months later.
Anne: And then when they decide to tell you, it’s calculated to hurt you. When they feel like you’re maybe having a great day or something’s going well for you. They calculate it to hurt you. So can you tell me when he told you this?
Elsa: He did do that to keep me kind of destabilized.
This particular instance was before we got engaged. I think he was afraid I would leave him. So he told me he lied. And told me, “Now we have everything out in the open. Now you know everything.” It was a lie. I didn’t know how to set boundaries.
How To Set Boundaries: Grooming
Anne: What types of reasons did you give in the beginning for this behavior that seemed kind of off?
How To Set Boundaries In Counseling
Elsa: Before I met him, he’d been in the city with a lot of college students, young women, and he was in that kind of party atmosphere. So we were newly married and we moved to a different college town and his behavior towards me changed. I thought, “It’s probably me.” Plus, my husband says I was the problem too. And I wondered if I should go to therapy. And he said, “Yeah, I think you should.” So he really let me believe I needed therapy and I needed to do my own work.
When You Blame Yourself
So I started counseling, and he did come to some early counseling sessions with me. And we found out there was an addiction.
Anne: Did you find the therapy helpful? Did the therapist talk about how how to set boundaries with your husband?
Elsa: No. I was pregnant, feeling anxious in the pregnancy, and I wasn’t able to put my finger on what was going on. I worried about the impact on my unborn child. So the goal was to reduce my anxiety.
Anne: Did you get diagnosed with anxiety at that time?
Elsa: No, we used it for insurance purposes, but I’ve never had a diagnosis of anything.
Anne: That’s good. So many women get diagnosed with something during this time because instead of their therapist saying, “This is your internal warning system telling you something’s wrong. You are reacting in a totally normal way. Let’s figure out why your warning system is going off.”
Instead of saying that, the therapist is like, “You’re just another crazy woman who’s having too much anxiety and you’re hysterical for no reason.”
Elsa: That’s the only message I was getting.
Anne: So the therapist doesn’t help you figure out what’s going on. She doesn’t help you figure out that you’re abused or how to set boundaries. How did you discover his use? Was your husband on his phone all the time?
Discovering Addiction
Elsa: Turns out my gut is sensitive. So I kept bringing my concerns to him over and over. “Something doesn’t feel right. Something has changed.”
Then one day I thought to ask him, “Do you look at inappropriate media?. And he said, “Yes, I do. So that I don’t bleep other women.”
How To Set Boundaries: He Goes To SAA
He shocked me. It’s a moment etched in my memory. I was shocked he never offered that information. That conversation never came up.
Anne: Also, his opinion, his viewpoint, was that if he did not look at it, he did not have the integrity, ability, or adult skill of not having sex with someone who wasn’t his wife. That was his reasoning. “I’m looking at this awful stuff for you. because if I didn’t, I would be out having sex with other women. And you don’t want me to do that, do you?”
Elsa: It was progress in his mind.
Anne: That must have been devastating. I’m so sorry. When does the word addict come into play?
Elsa: He told me he was a sex addict and I kind of laughed. I didn’t think it was a real thing. Then he said he was going to go to sex addicts anonymous.
Much like when he confessed about the story about the 21 year old girl, I think he could sense that I would have him leave the house. And so he found SAA, and said, “I’m going to go.” And he went. At that point, I thought that was our only issue. I didn’t realize I needed to learn how to set boundaries.
Trying Therapy
But later, I found out it was much bigger than looking at exploitative material. I needed to protect myself by learning how to set boundaries.
Anne: Oh yeah, for sure. This is a systemic issue and it breaks my heart when he lies. If he says he is an addict and he is gonna get help for addiction, the help for wives of addicts centers around sort of leaving him alone and staying on your side of the street and working on your “codependency” or your problems.
If he’s abusive, you need someone to help you get off the street all together because none of it is you.
Elsa: Yes, that’s what I was seeking from professionals. I didn’t get that.
Once I knew he had an addiction, I started reading. And that was what was recommended. I didn’t feel safe around his counselor, who was not certified sex addiction therapist. But I was trying all these different things.
Anne: Even if the person was a certified sexual addiction therapist, the likelihood of them identifying the abuse is next to zero, because they don’t see it as an abuse issue.
They’re not certified abuse specialists. They’re certified sexual addiction therapists. So they’ll identify anything he does as an extension of the addiction. So they’ll say, “He’s in addict mode. He’s not in recovery.” Rather than, “He’s abusive.” Which is a totally different thing for a woman to hear.
Separation & Escalation
Elsa: For sure. Yeah. They didn’t tell me that. So he didn’t want to leave the comfort of the home. We had a loft in our garage. He’d go sleep out there. And I took a trip to California to visit a friend, to have some space. I had my daughter with me. And when I came back, he picked us up at the airport. He barely acknowledged me. There was a lot of feeling of contempt.
And I was like, I want him out of the home.
So I told him, and he raged and tore things apart in the house. And I did call the police. They came. He left after that for two months. He still had access to my daughter, he’d still come and get her, but we had no interaction.
Anne: So you’re starting to learn how to use boundaries to separate yourself from his harm at this point.
Elsa: Totally. So fast forward a couple months. He’s still coming to get my daughter, but I try to have little to no contact with him in that exchange. Then we’re at church on Easter and I walk by where my daughter is in the playroom, and he’s standing at the doorway of the playroom.
It was so pleasant to talk with him. And he was so kind, he says he’s sorry. So from there, we started communication again.
How To Set Boundaries: False Hope Of Reconciliation
And we start to move forward and repair our relationship. And he eventually moved in after about a month. We were together for another six months, and it got worse. It got much worse. H e cut off all communication I had with his counselor. She would allow me to call her, still no knowledge of how to set boundaries. He didn’t allow me to talk to her.
He wouldn’t talk to anybody in the church with me. And he wouldn’t let me be around if he was talking to his sister. She was a bit older than him, and was a support to me. So I was basically completely isolated and the abuse escalated.
So he was going on a trip to see his family. And I just knew. So I said, “When you leave this time, you’re not coming back in the home.” When he first left, all I could think about was, how do I keep my daughter close to him? How do I make this work for him?
Final Decision To Divorce
My whole way of thinking was what would he want? And then I started to think about what I wanted and what brings me peace. And that led me to make some choices for myself and my daughter.
I didn’t tell him that I changed my plan to move back to Canada, where I’m a citizen.
I was authorized to work in the United States. He thought I would continue to pursue my green card, and he could help me so that I could remain in the United States. He believed he still had a certain amount of control over me, but I took action, which is how to set boundaries.
When he found out, he was obviously upset, but it protects me. I’m not a citizen in the US and I don’t have any support.
Anne: And protected you from prolonged legal abuse in terms of the divorce. But maybe not in terms of custody, because I have a feeling that you’re going to bring up custody. Because this guy sounds like a coercive controller. It’s strange, because they do things that seem stupid, because it’s hurting them. But it’s also hurting you.
Finding Support Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Anne: It also seems smart. Women in this situation are usually like, how can you be so smart and so stupid simultaneously?
Elsa: It’s a question that’s crossed my mind, yeah.
Elsa: I lived, in the northern states near the Canadian border. I just couldn’t find anything in the city for support. I mentioned he started SAA. They did have a group. Then I found a COSA group of about four or five women in that area. I just didn’t find that I got much from it. So I started looking for podcasts. And I stumbled across Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Being so isolated, it was my main support.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast helped me connect the dots. I did read some books, but I would say the podcasts from Betrayal Trauma Recovery were the main thing that kept me rooted in reality. Where I was like, “Yes, this matches.”
When You Can’t Find the Right Support To Set Boundaries
Because like you said, in certain parts of COSA helped kind of. But then listening to the podcast and the different people you would have on was the main thing that rooted me in reality of what I was experiencing.
It was like a big, yes, this fits with what I’m experiencing. And that’s what helped me in a lot of my decision making. His counselor didn’t know about the podcast. But it threatened him that I was learning what I was learning. His counselor even said to him at one point, “She’s reading these books. She’s reading these books.” Like it threatened him cause then I was no longer trapped in the chaos.
Anne: When you found the BTR podcast was it? Kind of revelatory? Like, was it something totally new that you hadn’t thought of or heard before? Or was it something that you did know inside, but you just didn’t know you knew it?
Elsa: I’d say the latter, for sure.
How To Set Boundaries: Realizing The Extent Of Abuse
I work in healthcare, I have some knowledge of like, mental health. So, as I started to listen to it, I’m like, Yes, this makes sense as to what I already know. Like I I knew about attachment and addiction . it was like I knew it was ill treatment but I didn’t think it was as calculated as it was. BTR episodes started to put pieces together.
Anne: When women find the podcast, they’re like, “Yes!” Like they knew it. But they didn’t have words for it or couldn’t bring it to the surface. And they’re also like, “What!? How did I not know?” That’s how I felt. I was like, how am I a college graduate with a master’s degree who doesn’t want to be abused? And not realize I’m being abused? This is crazy. It’s both like, “I knew it.” And then like, “How did I not know it?” at the exact same time?
And it’s such a strange place to be, where at least I felt so stupid that I didn’t see it. But then also not stupid at all because I’d never been educated about it. And all the abuse checklists are like, does he control your transportation? And you’re like, no, does he trap you in a room? No. I mean, maybe he might trap you in a room. I’m not saying he wouldn’t. I’m just saying the classic abuse checklists didn’t seem to fit my situation. It was just confusing.
The Role Of Feelings In Identifying Abuse
Elsa: The idea of secret keeping his “power over” resonated with me. I’m like, yeah. Because at first I thought he didn’t realize it was painful for me. Or he didn’t realize the depth of the impact of his actions. But then I circled around to the fact that I didn’t matter to him.
Anne: He uses your feelings against you to control you.
Elsa: Yeah, and that.
Anne: Rather than listening or caring about your feelings. So the only reason he pays attention to your feelings is to manipulate you, control the situation and the narrative. And that’s where women, well meaning, awesome, caring women, don’t know what they’re dealing with. So of course, they’re going to share their feelings with their husband. Because they think in sharing their feelings, they can resolve the issue. They want to know if their abusive husband is changing.
But with an abuser sharing your feelings, it is literally offering them a list of how to manipulate you better. That’s why it’s so important to know what you’re looking at.
Boundaries & Responses
Elsa: For sure, yeah. Trust your gut. How do you feel around him? That was a big one for me. I never felt calm, I always felt like something wasn’t right.
During our divorce, the lawyers said, “Let’s subpoena his bank records.”
So I’m like, “Okay, sure.”
And his bank records showed he was at a college bar every night. Then, he started to really just harass me a lot through the parenting app. We had created this parenting plan when we lived in, in the U.S. Which was a part of how to set boundaries.
And when the borders finally opened and we moved , we had no idea of the impact it would have on my daughter. She was barely two at the time. I worked full time, and she was in daycare full time. It was a rigorous schedule for her. Two nights a week, she’d have to be away from home for 12 hours. We’d have to meet him at this neutral location. It’s dark. It’s raining. The roads are bad.
How To Set Boundaries: Using the Parenting App For Documentation
As much feedback as I gave him: that this was so hard on her. Can we please figure out a different way for him to get that one and a half hour visit by extending his weekend visits or something, he just wouldn’t budge. And he could see the difficulty for her in terms of her sleep schedule.
Anne: And for you.
Elsa: Exactly. He knew, and he didn’t care if it was hard on me. And she was just a byproduct of that. So that went on for about six months. And then I just said, “Enough.” I learned how to set boundaries from BTR, from you and your podcast and your group sessions. I said, “You can take me to court, but I’m decreasing this to one night a week on her weeknights.”
And he was a lot of a lot of talk, but then no action. Because if you get down to the truth of everything, of what he actually wants. It’s not that extra one and a half hours. It was more like you said, it was impacting our lives. We had no free time, we’re exhausted all the time. He thought it was fun to make us miserable.
A lot of crazy making in that he’ll say, “You never give me any time, da da da.” At first I was over explaining and deflecting, and now I don’t do any of that. The parenting app has been so great because it’s all there. It’s all documented.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free & Message Strategies
It’s valid to look back and go, this is all the times I offered. He knows he doesn’t try to make up any extra time with her, so it’s playing itself out. And the less I engage, the less of a rise he gets from me, the more I have cut down any interaction on the app, to like the bare minimum, he shrinks away.
He doesn’t try to make up any extra time with her, so it’s playing itself out. And the less I engage, the less of a rise he gets from me, the more I have cut down any interaction on the app, to like the bare minimum, he shrinks away.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches you how to think about the abuser, so that you can respond to them in a way that protects you. And learn how to set boundaries. Where he can’t actually cross them.
Elsa: I love that.
Anne: It is hard ’cause the way other therapists teach boundaries, women are like, “But he keeps crossing my boundaries.” And that’s because the way the therapists teach it is not helpful to victims of abuse. Because it’s possible to set boundaries where he actually can’t cross them.
How To Set Boundaries: Do Not Believe Your Abuser
And women who take the Living Free Workshop learn, in your case, you were like, okay, he’s threatening to take me to court, he wants me to be terrified of losing my daughter. He’s threatening me so I’ll do what he wants. So I’m just gonna say, “Sounds good. This is my attorney’s phone number. Let me know how it goes.”
I mean, some will take you to court, but the majority of them think the threats in and of themselves will work, and they don’t actually wanna spend the time and money and energy to take you to court because in reality, their actions rarely match their words.
In that way, women can be delivered because the strategy is not believing them.
The Importance of Boundaries
Elsa: Exactly. What you said about the boundaries, I think of that all the time. I share it with other people, because I learned it from you and the podcast. And The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions because many people think it’s a lot of words to describe your boundary. I love that it’s an action, an action you take.I advocate for myself and my daughter. I have the documentation to support decisions. So I’ve protected myself that way.
Anne: Yeah, that’s the only thing that will actually protect you. Like in the beginning, you’re trying to figure out, is this abuse? What’s going on?
If you’re using the Living Free strategies, you don’t have to ask him, “Hey, are you abusive?” Or tell him, “this is abuse.” You don’t have to bring it up. You can just observe. And you can see that he’s abusive. If you see that he’s abusive, you need to get to safety. But you don’t need to say anything about it. And if you tell them your boundary, it’s a big giant flag that says, “Hey, this is how to abuse me.” So once you know they’re an abuser, you never want to tell them.
Elsa: I learned that from you too. I had to go through some of the documentation recently. And I think it was over 30 counts of him accusing me of being a parental alienator and narcissist. And I don’t comment. There’s no point, but yeah, he heavily projects on me that I’m mentally unstable.
I learned from you To Focus On How I Feel
Setting boundaries has protected my peace because otherwise, he’s always diminishing me or invalidating me. Or make snide remarks about, or attack, your character.
Before I just believed him when he said he loved me and he wouldn’t do it again. But now, he can’t do it to me. I’ve even watched my own daughter tell him no, like on a video call. Like she says, “No I don’t like that book.” And there he goes again, telling her “Of course you like it. You just don’t know that you do yet.” It’s constant harassment to her.
So now that I know how to set boundaries because I learned that from The Living Free Workshop, I don’t have to experience that anymore because I protect myself from him.
Anne: I’m so glad the strategies worked for you. I’ve heard that from so many women. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I appreciate the time that you’ve taken to talk with us today.
Elsa: Yeah, thank you so much for everything.
What If My Husband Says He Doesn’t Love Me?
Dec 02, 2025
It’s hard to know what to do when your husband says he doesn’t love you anymore. If this has happened to you, here’s what you need to know.
Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? To see if you can recognize the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: What to Do When Your Husband Doesn’t Love You
Anne: Today we’re gonna cover what happens when your husband says he doesn’t love you anymore. We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Denise. This happened to her. Here’s a preview of what she said.
“I felt like he hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him , “When did your heart turn against me?” So then he tells me…”
You’ll find out what he tells her later on in the story.
If this has happened to you, where your husband has told you he doesn’t love you anymore. Here are two things to consider.
Number one, get educated about emotional and psychological abuse because there’s a chance that this is part of your story, even if it doesn’t seem like it. You’ll hear about how Denise’s husband used two psychological abuse tactics: mirroring and countering. So as you listen, see if you can identify when that happens. And number, two is to observe their actions. And I’ll talk more about that in today’s interview.
So welcome, Denise.
When your Husband Says He doesn’t Love you
Denise: Yeah, I met my ex online. I was in my 40s and had never been married. I always said I didn’t want to get married until I met the one. Like, the one, and I made sure, because I didn’t want a bad marriage. Um, turns out that I apparently didn’t know what that looked like.
So Yeah, he’d been, married before, was a widower, he took care of his late wife, and, seemed to be financially responsible.
The first date was great.
But then on the next date, we went for a hike, and I was asking him questions, and he couldn’t answer simple questions, like, what’s your favorite movie?
Maybe He’s Just Not Ready
Denise: The third date was just awkward, something feels off. And I told him I wouldn’t date him.
I didn’t think he was ready for a relationship, like maybe he needed to heal some more.
Anne: How long after his wife’s death did you start?
Denise: Like three and a half months
So I told him I wouldn’t date him.
But we were hanging out as friends and we would argue all the time. People would say, “what are you arguing about?” Like, I don’t even know, I don’t know what we were arguing about. It was really confusing to me because I’m not a really argumentative person, but for some reason I was drawn to him.
His Sudden Heart Change: Maybe He Does Love Me
Denise: And then all of a sudden, literally one day, he changed and there was no more arguing. It was almost like this happy wife, happy life thing. I thought okay, he hadn’t dated in a long time, that was a fluke. That’s what I thought. That was a fluke. He’s realized he was just being an idiot and now he’s ready to step up and be himself and be respectful.
Anne: Wow! That was a sudden heart change.
Denise: Yes, exactly. And then after that, we got along really well. I had so much fun.
Looking back now, I can see things that I didn’t notice at the time, but at the time, everything seemed great. I just kept telling people like how blessed I was. This was amazing. His friends were all telling me how wonderful he was and random people we would meet would tell me like, “you are lucky, he is a good man.”
My family loved him. I mean, it was like everybody. No one thought there would be a time where I’d have to figure out what to do if he said he didn’t love me anymore. No one ever thought something like that would ever happen.
Anne: Did he have kids from his first marriage?
Denise: He did. They were preteen, and early teen.
His Sudden Heart Change: Confusion
Denise: There were a couple of little other flukes that happened while we were dating or after we were engaged and I thought they were flukes, one of them happened when my niece was graduating from college and I wanted to go to her graduation.
We were engaged at the time and he had never been to that area of the United States. So, he’s like, “why don’t you plan the trip then, since you’ve been there before and we can do our family vacation and go to your niece’s graduation at the same time.” I’m like, Oh, that would be wonderful.
Like I’d been there. He hadn’t. So, we asked the kids if they wanted to do anything like specific in that area. They didn’t want to look anything up. So I was like, I guess I’m planning it. And he was like, “I trust you.”
So, we go on this trip and he starts getting angry at me for not having planned it better and I was like, really confused. That’s what a lot of this whole thing was, a lot of confusion. Like, you asked me to plan it, if you wanted to do it a certain way, you should have stepped in and planned it yourself or said you wanted something else. I mean, it’s common sense. I saw on that trip what he was just, angry, bitter, and yelling at me.
Pre-Wedding Tensions
Denise: That was, before the wedding and I thought it was a one off.
Anne: like a fluke.
Denise: Mm hmm.
And then, there was one more that I see now as major. I thought it was him being under a lot of stress. It was right before the wedding. He said he wanted our bank accounts to be merged, which is what I wanted. I wanted 100 percent commitment, all in, everything shared.
I wanted to be a stay at home mom. That was my goal. He was totally up for that. So, right before the wedding, he starts getting angry that he’s paying more for the wedding than I am.
And I was like, weird, cause we’re merging everything. He wasn’t arguing that he didn’t want something at the wedding. He was saying he wanted me to pay for it.
Anne: Are you okay if we pause right here?
Denise: totally
Mirroring Explained
Anne: This is how mirroring works. He’s not gonna tell you how he feels until you tell him how you feel, so he can just mirror back to you your own interests and your own opinions. So he’s gonna find out what your favorite movie genre is, and then he’s gonna say, me too. He’s gonna wait until he knows how you feel about politics. And then he’s going to mirror your opinions back to you. And then later he’ll have a “change of heart” when really he didn’t have those opinions in the first place.
So in terms of choosing a good husband, if you’re thinking about dating or getting to know someone, try asking them questions like this before you tell them how you feel and see how they respond.
Denise: That actually makes complete sense. I hadn’t thought of it in that way but now that you say that, I was thinking back, like, after I told him what my favorite movie was, then he said that he liked that one too. Most everything, it seemed like it was a fluke that he liked the same things I did, it was like, oh my , we’re like exactly the same.
This is crazy. I’m like, yeah, this is crazy. I never, imagined that we would like this many things the same.
Countering Explained
Anne: So when you talked about this period of time where you were just friends and he was arguing with you quite a bit.
My guess is that he was countering. Countering is an abuse tactic where they counter basically, everything you say. It’s very similar to like a 15 year old. My son counters right now from time to time, cause he’s 15 and I’m like legit every single thing I’m saying you’re disagreeing with.
And he’s like, “no, I’m not.” I’m like, there you go again. This is happening right now. It’s a really immature way of trying to overpower somebody else. He was countering maybe, to determine how confident you were in your opinions.
And when he realized you’re very confident in your opinions, he also realized he wasn’t gonna be able to groom you that way.
And then, he made an abrupt heart change to acting kind and egalitarian. That’s where you saw that shift when he realized you weren’t looking for the strong, like take charge type. She’s looking more for a partner. It sounds like it was either arguing or everything was perfect.
Denise: Yeah, that is how it felt and that’s the way it was. It was extreme.
Better Communication Won’t Make His Heart Change
Anne: They use communication in this way to manipulate. That’s why learning to communicate better doesn’t solve an abuse problem, and that’s why the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free strategies are so important. Using those strategies will help you see what their true intent is and what they’re actually doing.
So he was using those tactics on you, and you didn’t realize it because, why would you? We’re not educated on what to do if he says doesn’t love us.
Did you know about any porn use?
Denise: That was really important for me to talk to him about before the wedding. He said he had a box of Playboys in the basement. And he was like, “I don’t want to have anything to do with that, I just need to destroy those.” So he told me he burned all of them and I tried really hard not to push him, because I wanted anything like that to come from him.
He wasn’t Catholic. I didn’t ask him to become Catholic.
I just told him going to church was really important to me and going together was really important to me. So we went to both churches.
His Sudden Heart Change: Post-Wedding
Denise: But then, I noticed on the honeymoon that he was doing things on purpose to hurt me. Like there were things before that hurt me, you know, I didn’t like that, or we need to work on this. He would like, abruptly turn away from me in bed, just like a rejection.
And I told him I didn’t like it and he just kept doing it. I was like, okay, this is meant to hurt me, which was very shocking to me because I thought I married my knight in shining armor, the countering got so bad while we were…
I don’t even like to say intimate because it wasn’t reality, like within weeks of the wedding, he was screaming at me, telling me that I was selfish and that I didn’t care about him. I’m like, what is happening here? Screaming isn’t one of the types of physical intimacy, haha.
I am super confused. I mean, you know, you’ve been through it, all the torture, the angst.
Anne: So when he starts doing this on the honeymoon during intimate times, and I agree with you, calling it intimacy is like a joke because it wasn’t intimate at all, and you recognize this is on purpose. What did you think was the cause of this sudden heart?
Denise: I just thought he needed healing, you know, he had a rough childhood. He was married. She was ill for a long time. He said she was depressed all the time and then she passed away. Raising his kids on his own, like he couldn’t handle stuff.
Financial Control And Isolation after he says he Doesn’t Love You
Denise: At this point I had lost my job. We had spent all of my money on groceries. My bank accounts were empty. I had absolutely nothing.
He wouldn’t put me on the accounts. He kept saying he was going to like, “Oh, I forgot. Oh, we should have done that.” So, I had no income, no job, and no money in the bank. I’m destitute.
At this point, I had already had one miscarriage, and I took another pregnancy test. It was negative, but he thought it was positive and he thought I was pregnant. He was like, “yeah, I think you should leave.”
Anne: And you’ve been single, so you’re used to being independent. You’re used to to paying your own bills.
And then to be in this vulnerable position of realizing that your husband doesn’t love you for the first time must have felt like a trap.
Denise: yeah.
Different Paths and No Mercy When He says he Doesn’t Love You anymore
Anne: that is shocking.
Denise: But I thought we were on the same path going the same direction and there were these like little jolts off of the path, but that he really wanted to be on that path and he would come back and we would keep moving in the same direction.
Four months after the wedding, things had gotten so bad. He was screaming at me all the time. I kind of laugh, but it’s not funny at all. I mean, I look back and I’m just like, what the heck?
It was just insane. He kept bringing up that trip we had taken, blaming me because we didn’t do things that were kid friendly and, literally, I was begging him, like, I’m trying to be the best mom and wife that I can be please give me some mercy.
For, not knowing what the kids would enjoy, like I’m doing the best I can, yeah, I’m going to fail. I’m not perfect. Don’t you think I deserve a little bit of mercy?
And in front of one of his kids, he said, “you don’t deserve mercy.” It’s just like, there’s nowhere to go, nowhere to go with that.
Facing The Truth When Your Husband has stopped loving you
Anne: So, at this point, when you see that your husband says he’s had a drastic heart change, what did you do?
Denise: I finally started telling people what was going on.
And I have a few friends who told me about the cycle of abuse.
I didn’t have any bruises or anything, I was confused, and knew this wasn’t healthy. So, I looked it up and I was like, this is exactly what’s happening, but It’s not just like I’m dating and he’s abusive to me. There was a wedding. And of course, like most women do, oh, but this is the way he was.
Is he going to get back to this point? So, when I was shown the truth, I started searching for a therapist and trying to do everything I could to to heal it.
Seeking Help and Therapy When He Doesn’t Love You anymore
Denise: During the time that we were together, we saw four different therapists. Three of them sided with him, even after he was either abusive to me in front of them or he told them he was abusive to me. They still sided with him.
At one point he is sitting face to face, my hands in his hands and he’s telling me how much he loves me and he’s so sorry and one therapist was like, “don’t you hear him? Can’t you hear him?”
I was just like, I don’t even know if he means it right now, but in five minutes he’s not going to, that’s the problem. And she didn’t get it.
Anne: This is crazy pants! Were you surprised at how unhelpful therapy was? Because couples therapy is kind of like everybody’s solution. And many therapists don’t consider the possibility that your husband doesn’t love you or he is abusive if he’s coming to couples therapy with you.
Denise: Yes. One of the questions I asked before we chose this therapist was, “Can you spot narcissism?”
Anne: Did she say yes?
Denise: Of course, of course, they all say yes.
And after that, she wouldn’t even answer my calls. I think she was probably so confused by the whole thing.
Anne: It’s really hard when you go to someone for help, and you have to educate them about what’s happening rather than the other way around.
First Attempt to Leave
Denise: Then about a month later, I left him the first time. I called someone to tell them I was leaving and that I was worried about his kids.
This person told me, “we all knew it wasn’t going to work out…He was completely fake the whole time you were dating.”
I was like, why didn’t anybody tell me this?
They said it was “because they were afraid that, he wouldn’t let them have a relationship with the kids.”
But this person hadn’t been really nice to me. So I was like, Oh, do I trust this person or not? I have no idea.
Unfortunately, after that, he was like, “there’s this retreat thing. A Catholic retreat for people on the verge of the decision to divorce, to try to heal the relationship.” And they say in there, “if there’s abuse, this doesn’t work.”
So he set it up. We went to that and he said, “I want this, I want to be with you, blah, blah, blah,” and of course, he acted like everything was great and we’re all healed. That was right when all the COVID lockdowns were just starting and I was like, I should be with him to figure this out.
Temporary Reconciliation
Denise: So, I moved back. and it was actually decent, for quite a while.
And then eight months later, it started going downhill really fast.
So I was trying to get to another therapist and on the same day that we’re meeting with a therapist, he tells me he has a meeting with a divorce lawyer.
Just like why are we meeting with a therapist if you’re meeting with a divorce lawyer, and then he told one of his kids he was divorcing me. I felt like this guy hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him, when did you stop loving me? Because I still didn’t understand that it was all fake beforehand.
My Heart Change: The Breaking Point
Denise: So then, he tells me that it was at our reception.
Anne: Your wedding reception?!
Denise: Yes…I know, right?!
Anne: What in the world?!
Denise: …He overheard this friend saying, “she’s got herself a sugar daddy.” And that was it, according to him, which is just a lie anyway.
Like, you don’t turn against your spouse because somebody makes a joke!
Anne: yeah.
Denise: Even if you don’t like the joke.
Anne: No.
Denise: Yeah. I was just in shock, and I was like, well, the timeline makes sense.
The Real Timeline of “He doesn’t love me anymore” Unveiled
Anne: The true timeline was the second he married you, he was like, now I don’t have to wear the mask anymore.
Denise: Yeah.
Anne: “She’s stuck with me.” So that’s the real timeline. After the reception, he didn’t feel like he had to treat you well anymore. Not that he overheard somebody tell a joke.
Denise: Yeah. I think honestly, he was telling people negative things about me before the wedding.
There were people who weren’t going to go to our wedding, because they didn’t like that he was marrying a Catholic. It didn’t cross my mind that he would be complaining about me to his friends.
So, a lot of his friends didn’t want to come to the wedding.
If he says he doesn’t love you, it could be Manipulation
Anne: Um, through all the interviews I’ve done, I see a lot of patterns. One I see frequently is goldfish brain. They only care about the thing they want in the moment, like right then, like what is right in front of them.
And so they’ll say something to get that thing. And then literally two hours later, they’ll want something else, hence the heart change. So, they’ll say the opposite thing to get the other thing, and it’s so confusing. So, to have him throw you under the bus at his own wedding, thinking that’s going to benefit him somehow, while also grooming you long term…this is a sure sign that he never loved you.
There’s these two simultaneous things that seem contradictory, but they have a goal in mind and they play the long game to get what they want.
They’re able to groom you until they get what they want. It just shows how unsafe the situation is for you, psychologically and emotionally.
Denise: Yeah, it’s just some crazy stuff so, I ended up leaving again.
Financial Abuse Exposed
Denise: We ended up going to counseling and while we were in front of this counselor he tells me that “he took all of the money out of the account so that I couldn’t have anything.” I had a new job at this point and I was making a decent amount of money. But he says that in front of the counselor. This is financial abuse.
Anne: Absolutely, yeah!
Therapist’s Denial
Denise: I mean, he said it right in front of the counselor. So months later, when I was trying to get the counselor to write something for me the counselor said, “well, I can’t lie and say he was abusive.”
Anne: WHAT?!!
Denise: I was like, I’m not asking you to lie. He was abusive right in front of you. He told me in front of you that he took all the money out of the joint account so that I wouldn’t get any. Didn’t you take notes? He never responded.
Anne: He wouldn’t even admit your husband doesn’t love you?!
Denise: Guess not.
Anne: Sorry. This is the woman who’s always telling people therapists don’t get it and I’m like, what?
Denise: And then you’re shocked. Yeah. Yeah.
Anne: It’s still shocking. When it’s clear…I’m thinking that he’s financially abusive in my head and I’m not saying that out loud. But then, to hear that a therapist just completely doesn’t acknowledge that it’s abuse, is so crazy.
Denise: Yeah, I was in like crazy land.
Separation and Counseling When He says he Doesn’t Love You
Denise: So we’re apart and I’m in my own apartment.
I think I just knew myself well enough, that I had to keep trying until I got to a point where I was absolutely sure this was never going to work. So we were apart for like 10 months. I told him I wasn’t going to move back into that other house it’s like, I’m not moving back in there. These are the things I need.
While we’re apart, I’m going to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions that are super helpful and really eye opening, but I didn’t quite get it. Then, we ended up getting this house, everything fell into place. I told him, do you really want this? Because if this happens again, I’m leaving and it’s for good. There’s not going to be any more back and forth.
He said, “This is it. And of course, oh, yeah, of course. I’m so sorry and all this stuff.”
He doesn’t love me anymore: False Promises and Conversion
Denise: He decided to become Catholic, so he started learning about the faith and going to church. And he’s like, will you be my sponsor? I’m like, no, if you’re doing this, you’re doing it on your own, cause I knew if I helped in any way he would accuse me of forcing him. So I was like, if you want to become Catholic, that’s your own thing.
I never asked you to do it. I’m not pushing you. So he went through the whole process and became Catholic and things got, you know, “better and better.”
Denise: And, um, yeah, within nine months, I moved out again.
My heart Change: Realization and Education
Anne: That point, you’d been going to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions.
You’d been more educated about abuse from hearing other women’s stories on this betrayal podcast.
So at this point, was it a little bit, I don’t want to say easier cause it’s never easy. And I don’t want to say that it ever is easy. There seems to be some kind of point where it clicks that he never loved you, he’s abusive, and I need to make some changes.
At least there was for me where I just knew I wasn’t going to do it anymore. And up until that point, I don’t know if I could have anything else. You know, I was doing the very best I could.
Denise: Yeah, absolutely.
I knew it was abuse. My friends knew it was abuse.
Understanding Abuse Cycles When He says he doesn’t love you
Denise: I thought the abuse was happening more often and getting worse over time.
We were weaning out of this abusive pattern is what I thought. And so I was like, all right, we’ll just deal with it when we’re in this abusive pattern.
Observing and Setting Boundaries
Denise: He started seeing a counselor he liked, and things got better. I saw the changes, but I didn’t feel as confident about it as I did before.
Before I would argue.
When I went back, I was like, I’m not arguing anymore. I’m just going to state what I need and want. That’s it. Then, when I went back the second time, I understood to observe. And then I knew it was time to get out of there. It wasn’t safe.
Confrontation with the Priest
Denise: He was going to see the priest.
And I said, I wanted to go too. So, we went, and literally he was screaming at me the whole time. The priest stood in front of him and tried to talk about integrity. He looked frustrated and finally asked my ex, “Do you even want to be married?” And my ex with this shocked look on his face was like, “Yes. Like, how could you ask that?”
Anne: Like, he’s saying, “your husband doesn’t love you. It seems like he hates your guts.”
Denise: Right.
My ex said he felt trapped. And I was like, then leave!
And he wouldn’t leave, I’m like, what is happening?
Denise: Yeah. It’s so like ridiculous. Then the priest looked at me and asked, “Do you want to be married?” But I knew if I said no, that would start a ball rolling that I wasn’t ready for.
Preparing To Leave
Denise: So, I said, I’m not quite sure and, then I got my papers together, got them out of the house, did everything that I could.
One of the kids went out with his family, and I thought, “I need to wait until he comes back.” I wanted him to return to school and get comfortable before I left. So, I waited another four or five days, which felt so hard. During that time, I kept telling him, “You’re going down this road, and you need to remember what I said.”
If I leave, it’s going to be for good. Is that what you really want? Because that’s the direction you’re choosing. I could have left at any time, but I was praying like, I want the time that’s the best for me, that’s going to be best for the kids. If there is such a thing, that’s when I want to leave.
The Decision to Leave When Your Husband is incapable of loving you
Denise: And all of a sudden one morning it was like, today. I’m like, all right, today.
I’m leaving today.
Anne: You bring up a good point, because so many women share, and I was this way, too. It just didn’t feel right to leave and I honor that. And then, at the same time, it’s abuse. There’s no part where you’re going to feel like this is great. It’s just always going to feel terrible. And then, you just realize that he’s never been capable of loving anybody.
Denise: Yeah. And it’s never the wrong time to leave either. It’s not like you have to stay until, you know, you can leave whenever. I didn’t think God wanted me in an abusive relationship, and you need this one more little bit of abuse and then you’re good to go or anything like that.
You know, I just felt like, all right, I’m good to go. Like I’m ready and it’s time.
So, that’s when I left.
Biblical Insight When your Husband chooses not to love you
Denise: It’s Second Timothy, chapter three, verses one through nine in the revised standard Catholic edition. “In the last days, there will come times of stress.
For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers.”
I don’t even know what this word is, “profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form religion, but denying the power of it. Avoid such people.”
I found that and like, a light came down from heaven.
It seems to describe narcissism.
Anne: Perfectly.
Denise: Yeah, perfectly. I don’t know why nobody else is quoting that. And then it says, leave them. Like, don’t be around these people.
Anne: I love that scripture. I don’t know if I’ve ever quoted it on the betrayal podcast, but I’m familiar with it for that same reason. Scriptures say all over the place, separate yourself from wickedness repeatedly, over and over. When he can’t love, it’s wickedness.
It’s shocking that no one calls these guys wicked. Here’s why.
Denise: Yeah. It explains a lot of what evil looks like, and it looks exactly like narcissism.
Really intelligent, but at the same time, this four year old tantrum.
Anne: Yes.
Facing Evil When Your Husband Hates you
Denise: Yeah, I would describe my experience as being toe to toe with evil. It’s not For the weak hearted.
Anne: No.
Women who come and share their story, like you have seen evil, looked evil in the face and had to figure out what to do. When he has never loved us, we felt tricked, but we still tried to do the right thing.
It’s so much more difficult than anyone can imagine.
Personal Growth Through Adversity When Your Husband Doesn’t Love You
Denise: Like at the time, and for a long time afterward, I would not have said this, but I actually am at the point where I look back and I’m like, I like who I am so much better after having gone through this evil situation. If I had to choose between who I was before and who I am now, I would pick who I am now. To become this person, I had to go through this situation, but I would do it all over again. It was hard, but it helped me grow and change for the better.
And I think that’s a testament to God, his whole goal is for us to have good, and can bring good out of any horrendous situation.
Anne: I get it especially when women are new and they’re not safe yet.
The idea that an experience can make someone a better person sounds unfair. It feels like saying, “If you were the person you should be, this wouldn’t have happened to you.” This puts the blame on the person, which isn’t right.
Or alternatively, women who are thinking they have to suffer through this, thinking they don’t deserve safety and that God is like using their suffering to make them a better person.
God doesn’t want you to suffer because your husband doesn’t love you. He knows you’re not a bad person, and you didn’t deserve this to make you better.
You’re a wonderful person now, he loves you just the way you are. And through this awful experience, we do learn interesting things that I’m grateful for.
I am grateful that I am the person I am now. Because of what I went through, I have a heart change that values my safety.
Practical Lessons Learned When he can’t love
Denise: I learned a few practical things. Now, I can see similar situations that I didn’t notice before. I noticed that some people in my life made me feel unsafe, so I decided to cut them out. Now I feel better and more at peace. Before, I didn’t understand that. After I left the last time, I thought I would finally feel relief, but I didn’t. That’s when I saw that a few other people treated me the same way, or in a very similar way.
And, it was painful to cut them out, but after I cut them out, I felt the relief.
Anne: And that’s why we’re here. Getting to safety is such an individual journey for everyone.
The only thing any of us can do on this path is continue to listen to our internal warning system (see our educational infographics about betrayal on Instagram) that is telling us if we’re safe or not, and continue to evolve our boundaries until we feel that relief. It’s our own version of a heart change for the better. And I talk about this in the Living Free Workshop. And then you still don’t feel relief and then you try again and it still isn’t quite working and then you try again like, just as an example, that, Catholic retreat you went to for couples on the verge of divorce.
Resisting and Evolving: A heart Change When he doesn’t love you
Anne: Did you know that was you resisting this abuse?
That was you recognizing that he never loved you, and evolving, having your own heart change. At the time, you thought, “Maybe this couple’s retreat will help me find safety.” And then you learn from experience that it didn’t. So, then you evolved and said, “Okay, now I know I can’t go to therapy with him at all, because he hasn’t had a heart change that made me feel safe.”
We grow and change over time. Now, you might say, “I feel relief and safe.” For me, I felt relief when I used the Living Free strategies and gained full custody of my kids. After my divorce, someone hurt me for eight years. I kept wondering, “How can I find real safety?” Then, I found a way to take control and create a safe life for myself and my kids.
Support and Solidarity When he says he Doesn’t Love You
Anne: I’m so glad that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was helpful to you.
Denise: Yeah, it was a lifesaver. I went to groups. For a while I went once a day, and then, the second time I joined, it was a few times a week. The coaches were always amazing and so kind, but also firm and direct.
Hearing from the other women really helped me, because you’re in this bubble, kind of, in your relationship. I don’t want to really call it a relationship, in your situation, like you’re the only one experiencing it, so you don’t see all the nuances. I really think evil is not creative.
It feels like the same thing keeps happening again and again. That’s why so many stories seem so similar. I remember someone saying she thought she lost something. She searched and searched for it for a long time.
Suddenly, I realized, “Oh, that’s what the hiding was about!” It made me remember, “That happened to me, and I didn’t even know it was abuse.” Learning the right words for these things has helped me so much. I am Catholic, and I’m going through the annulment process right now. Thanks to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I learned terms like “mirroring” and “future faking.” With this knowledge, I feel confident and clear as I write my annulment letter.
It was helpful to wrap my mind around the truth of this situation, that my husband doesn’t love me.
The Truth Will Set You Free: Your Heart Change When Your Husband Doesn’t Love You
Anne: I’m so glad it was helpful. My whole goal in life is to help women see the truth, like your husband doesn’t love you or whatever the truth is. Whether it’s painful or not. The Living Free Workshop strategies are a way to observe from a safe distance, so that women see the truth, and have their own heart change for their safety.
I’m so glad that you’re safe it’s such a brave thing to share your story and it will help a lot of women. So thank you.
Denise: And thank you for everything you do. You’re very courageous. I tell so many women about Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Is My Husband Addicted to…? Here’s How To Tell
Nov 25, 2025
When a woman finds out her husband has been lying, one question she usually asks is, “Is my husband addicted to…” Here’s what you really need to know.
Before reading on, did you know that the real issue may be emotional abuse? To test this theory, if your husband uses p***graphy, take this free emotional abuse quiz. See if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse.
When My Husband Said He is Addicted To…
If you’ve just discovered your husband has been lying to you and he claims struggling with addiction, but it doesn’t feel right—trust your gut. The truth might not be about addiction at all. Often, the real issue is emotional and psychological abuse.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we help women recognize the patterns of invisible abuse that hide behind lies. Here’s how to tell if your husband’s behavior is less about addiction and more about control and manipulation.
What You Need to Know About “Addiction” in Marriage
Addiction might seem like a reasonable explanation for your husband’s lies, but if your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to only focus on how they affect you. This shift will change everything.
If your husband repeatedly chooses behaviors that hurt you, it’s more than a personal struggle. It’s abuse.
Lies Aren’t Addiction—They’re Emotional and Psychological Abuse
If your husband says he’s lying because he’s an addict, ask yourself this question—does he take responsibility for the pain he’s caused? Or does he make excuses, shift blame, or manipulate you into feeling sorry for him?
Addiction doesn’t justify:
Lying about his whereabouts
Playing the victim, so you’ll feel sorry for him (when you’re the one who has been harmed)
Hiding money
Denying conversations or gaslighting you when you ask questions
Using phrases like “You’re too sensitive” or “You blow things out of proportion” to dismiss your concerns
These actions aren’t slips from an addict—they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control.
Addiction & Emotional Abuse
One common lie many women hear is that exploitative materials use is just a private problem or a personal addiction. But here’s the reality:
It Fuels Exploitation: Using materials that involve the abuse and exploitation of women and underage girls. Watching it creates demand for more harm.
Coercion In Marriage: When your husband lies about use, pressures you into uncomfortable situations, or refuses to be honest, he’s engaging in emotional and physical abuse.
It Breaks Marital Trust: Trust is the foundation of any healthy relationship. Withholding the truth, managing secret habits, or blaming you for his choices destroys intimacy and care.
How to Protect Yourself From an “Addicted” Husband
If your husband’s actions have harmed you, the best step is to learn how to protect yourself from further harm. Here’s where to start:
Here’s Most About Why Your Husband’s Addiction is Likely Abusive To You
Abusive online content is accepted, encouraged, and normalized in our society. While its effects are denied, minimized, and even justified.
When men choose to use exploitative content, they exploit and abuse women – many of whom are underage. Violence against women is common in this type of material.
Men literally have a response to the video proof of women and children brutalized and raped. How could that not be abusive?
But What If It’s So-Called “Ethical”?
Many so-called addicts will rally against the truth that this content is abusive. They claim that “ethical p****graphy” empowers women.
However, this fallacy is both dangerous and offensive. “Ethical” is the ultimate oxymoron. There is no healthy way to view something created through coercive, exploitative tactics.
Viewing This Type of Content Leads to Spouse Abuse
When men consume this type of material, they are, by default, abusing their wife because:
They’re engaging in a secret life—manipulation, lies, and withholding the truth are forms of emotional abuse.
If he’s not honest about his use of this content, it’s coercion, because she can’t make an informed decision.
Users of this material often pressure their wife to engage in dangerous, dehumanizing, and painful acts. This is coercion, a form of abuse.
Users often resort to psychologically abusive behaviors, including gaslighting, blame-shifting, and abusive defensiveness.
When His Addiction Has Taught Him How To Abuse Women
As men consume this type of abuse, they’re being conditioned to coerce and abuse women and underage girls. We understand the depth of horror and pain women experience when betrayed.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group offers victims a safe place to process trauma, share hard feelings, and ask questions. Attend a session today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUSQmWdjAdU
Transcript: Is My Husband Addicted to…?
Anne: It’s just me today. If you just found out about your husband’s lies. And you’re wondering is my husband addicted to whatever he just lied about? Here’s what you need to know. If you caught your husband lying. And then your husband said, I’m addicted to … And he claims he’s struggling with addiction. The truth might not be about addiction. Often the real issue is emotional and psychological abuse. So here’s what you need to know about addiction in marriage.
Addiction might seem like a reasonable explanation for your husband’s lies. But if your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to focus only on how they affect you, and this shift will change everything. Because if your husband repeatedly chooses behaviors that hurt you, this is about more than just his “personal struggle.” Lies aren’t addiction. Lies are emotional and psychological abuse.
So, if your husband is lying and his excuse is that he’s an addict, ask yourself this question. Is he taking responsibility for the pain he causes? Or does he make excuses, shift blame, or manipulate you to feel sorry for him?
Because addiction doesn’t justify lying about his whereabouts. Or that he plays the victim, so you feel sorry for him. He’s actually harming you. It doesn’t justify hiding money, denying conversations, or gaslighting when you ask questions. It doesn’t justify psychological abuse in telling you that you’re too sensitive or blowing something out of proportion, when what he’s done is serious.
Is my husband addicted: Tactics of Control
Anne: These actions aren’t slips from an addict, they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control. You may ask, is my husband addicted? So let’s talk specifically about addiction and why exploitative material is an abuse issue. It’s not so much that I think talking about it as an abuse issue is fun, because everything about abuse is miserable. But educating women about this type of abuse is my absolute favorite thing to do. I have a master’s degree in education. I’m an abuse educator.
And because I talk about abuse all day long, I’ve developed a dark sense of humor. So I appreciate your patience. When it comes to abuse, it’s not a “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” situation. It’s what doesn’t kill you, really harms you, and limits your ability to function and feel joy for a long time. It’s miserable to learn why it is abusive from experience. And extremely difficult to learn how to protect yourself from this type of abuse.
Most people don’t give victims of this type of abuse, the correct information. So that’s my intent today. I don’t want any woman to experience this type of abuse, not know what it is, and not know how to protect yourself. That’s why I’m doing this episode today.
So exploitative materials use is a form of abuse. And there are multiple reasons why it’s abuse. I’m going to work from the outside in as we go over these reasons.
Reason number one: The Reality of Exploitative Media
Anne: So reason number one: it fuels trafficking, and most exploitative media is video evidence of a victim’s coercion or assault. The industry says women are happy being abused. In fact, they’ve “consented” to it. But they are coerced. The money is the coercion. There is no woman wants to be filmed being violently attacked. Because that’s what most of it is today.
I’m a feminist. There are some feminists who say this somehow empowers women, and I absolutely disagree. Women have contracted diseases. The toxic “work” environment breaks them emotionally. Anyone who insists that it empowers women is not operating from a trauma-informed perspective. On the type of psychological grooming, emotional manipulation, and verbal manipulation that women encounter in the industry.
Is my husband addicted? There’s a general naivety among the mass consumers of exploitative media about how things work. Talking with the amazing people at the national center on exploitation. I’ve learned over the years. Statistics show if you watched 30 minutes of it. You are guaranteed to see someone who is there against their will. So even if somebody thinks they’re watching “ethical or free trade material.” There are a ton of euphemisms out there.
That’s not true. Women entrapped in this type of slavery are considered products. Producers use and sell their bodies as products. So if somebody views it, they’re getting pleasure from someone else’s abuse. There’s no healthy way to do that.
Reason Number two: Personal Experience with exploitative Material
Anne: Is my husband addicted? The second reason why it is an abuse issue is that my husband’s use is abusive to me. Use is directly tied to loss of intimacy, reduced empathy, and addictive behaviors. The effect of it on his brain, emotions, and empathy is a net negative. My husband’s use didn’t, and no man’s use makes him more compassionate, more kind, or more capable of connecting with other people. Especially, not me as his wife.
The use of exploitative material is an act outside of marriage. Most men don’t just use. They also lie, deceive, manipulate and gaslight their wives to hide their use. So their wife doesn’t know how much they’re using. It takes time to use it. It takes 15 minutes, a half hour, an hour, two hours. However long it takes them to masturbate. That is how long it takes.
So this is time they are taking away from their job, childcare, housework, and reducing their wife’s mental load. I mean, they’re spending time thinking about how can I get privacy to use? They’re not thinking, how can I help my wife? What are the kids doing today? How can I help with carpool?
In fact, he thinks it’s my wife’s job to do all the childcare, housework and everything. So if she asks me questions about what I’m doing, or expects anything from me, like how dare she! It’s my right to have time to view these videos of women abused and masturbate.
There’s some good research you can find at The National Center on Exploitation about how use escalates over time.
Is my husband addicted: Reason number three: It Destroys Relationships
Anne: So it takes more intense material for a man to get an erection, and for him to actually masturbate. So over time, he’s having to watch more of it, or watch more hardcore to do it. So what I believe should be between two people as an act of love and connection. For a user is spouting out sperm in front of a computer. There’s no need to pay attention to the other person’s feelings.
It’s all take. There’s absolutely no give. Is my husband addicted? And that’s the third reason why it is an abuse issue. It destroys sharing in marriage, and turns it into something that you experience alone. So it destroys the relationship. It’s not just abuse, because the people in the it are abused. And he’s not just abusive to us when he’s using it, because he has no empathy and care for us.
He uses all his mental energy to figure out how to lie to us. So he can be all by himself, using it. It’s also abusing the relationship, because it destroys the relationship. So that’s the third reason why it’s an abuse issue. He misuses or abuses the relationship. A marriage relationship is intended as a caring, loving, equally respectful relationship. Where people are relating out of care. But a user doesn’t operate from that perspective.
Transactional Relationships
Anne: Is my husband addicted? He operates as if it’s a transactionship. So, for example, he just needs to say the right words to get the result he wants. So if he says, oh, you look so beautiful today. I love you so much. You’re amazing. That makes it much easier for him to follow up with. I’m so grateful that you’re so supportive of my job. I’m so sorry. I have to work late tonight. I’m going to be in the office. I’m going to lock the doors. So the kids don’t bother me, but just know that I care about you and I’m doing all this for our family.
And then goes in his office, locks the door and he’s not actually working. He’s just using in there. He’s abusing the relationship. Because he sees it as a series of transactions and uses deceit to make those transactions.
I think that using exploitative material is a form of adultery. This is how infidelity destroys the relationship. The solution to this abuse of the relationship isn’t to say, If we watch it together, then it’s not abusing the relationship because we’re doing it together. No, doing something unhealthy together is not going to make the relationship healthy.
Character vs. Addiction
Anne: Is my husband addicted? The CSAT therapist would like to call this addiction rather than abuse. And I disagree, it’s abuse. It should be called abuse. I think if they try to treat it, they should be treating abuse. And the only thing that any addiction recovery professional should say to a victim of this type of abuse is you’re a victim of abuse. Focus on protecting yourself. That’s it.
Whether it’s addictive or not. This is a choice your husband is making day in and day out about what he thinks about, about how he spends his time. And if he’s been doing this for years, This is who he has become. The lying, the deception, the manipulation, all of this has become his character. And that’s what people mean when they say he’s abusive. Abuse is a character problem.
It’s important to know that abuse is a character problem, because a lot of emotional and psychological abuse will feel good to the victim. That type of manipulation is going to cause us as victims to feel loved. and cared for. Even though it’s manipulation. This is sometimes called grooming or hoovering. So if our husband has this type of abusive character, The only reason he chooses to do things that feel good for us is to achieve a goal. And his goal is often to either hide the truth or exploit us somehow.
So it’s dangerous, no matter what, it’s dangerous, if he’s manipulating through manipulative kindness, it’s just more obvious if he’s manipulating through threats, verbal abuse, or overt forms of emotional and psychological abuse. and verbal abuse.
Is my husband addicted: The Role of Addiction Professionals
Anne: The addiction, industrial complex does not want to correctly identify this. Is my husband addicted? They won’t say he has an abusive character. They’re going to say it’s an addiction and the addiction is a disease and the logical outcome of thinking that our husband has a disease. is for us as victims to have compassion for our abuser. When the thing we need to do is protect ourselves.
It’s not like he’s a cancer patient. And he has no choice. He does have choices. Men who use this material are not helpless. The bigger question is can they think about women as people. Can they accept that women are human and that we are equal to them. That we were not created for their use or for them to exploit. But that our feelings matter just as much as theirs.
If he wants to have it and we don’t want to have it. Those are equal. Because we are equal. And so all things being equal. He’s an adult. He has choices. If we can put time, effort, and thought into how to have a better marriage. So can he. If we can figure this out, he can figure this out. He knows how to act appropriately, because he is kind in public. He knows how to be kind. And he chooses to be kind as a manipulation tactic.
He doesn’t have an integrity disorder. He just doesn’t have integrity. For so long, I was in this addiction recovery space with my ex-husband. I was not seeing him as abusive. I was viewing everything he did through that lens of addiction.
Classic abusive behaviors
Anne: And that’s exactly why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to help you SEE what is actually happening. The way that I talk about abuse, is very mainstream. If you went to a domestic violence shelter and explained the manipulation, lies, deception, and disrespect that you’re experiencing. Is my husband addicted? Those domestic abuse experts at the domestic violence shelter would confirm that you’re experiencing abuse. I haven’t invented this out of nowhere.
These are very typical classic abusive behaviors. It’s just that the addiction industrial complex doesn’t want you to know that. And so they don’t bring that up. And I think the main reason is that they know if it’s abuse, a woman should just focus on protecting herself. If a addiction professional is an abuse expert. They know that he’s only going to treatment as a way to continue manipulating and exploiting his wife.
That he doesn’t need treatment, to be honest at any time. He could say, hey, it was a choice and I chose to use because it was way easier than trying to have a relationship. And I just want to ejaculate. All I care about is the orgasm and it’s way easier with it. It doesn’t expect anything. Instead in addiction treatment. He’ll come up with all these excuses and reasons. For why he’s compelled.
And you end up paying thousands and thousands of dollars for him to string you along and continue to exploit you and manipulate you. Because the addiction treatment industry doesn’t give victims of this type of abuse in any way to protect ourselves.
Indications of change
Anne: And they know that if she realizes this, he’ll have no reason to go anymore. And then they’ll lose a client. And then won’t get paid as much. Is my husband addicted? If he hasn’t found the treatment program all by himself, scheduled his own appointments, and done everything without you as a victim mentioning anything to him. Meaning, if you’re the one that found the therapist, if you schedule the appointments, if you’re managing his treatment in any way.That is one of the biggest indications. That he does not intend to change.
Because if he did intend to change, he would have done all of that on his own. If you’re capable of doing it, he’s capable of doing it. Sex addiction professionals know this. They always want the wife to be involved in the addict’s treatment. They don’t tell you that it’s the biggest indication that he’s not going to change. Because if the wife’s not involved, they don’t get paid. So the whole thing is just a big racket.
If you’ve been listening at this point, you’re probably thinking, is there no hope for my marriage? And I understand. Because I felt the same way. I don’t know of any woman who hasn’t tried to go to intensive couple therapy or get their husband addiction therapy. It’s totally okay to be like, I’m going to try addiction therapy or maybe like an abuse cessation program. That’s what I did. And most of the women who come to BTR have tried that.
In fact, you maybe have already tried going to therapy or a marriage intensive. And you’re thinking you just need to find the right therapist or the right program.
Is my husband addicted: Seeking Help and Therapy
Anne: Is my husband addicted? Here’s a thought. If you’re thinking that you just haven’t found the right program yet for your husband. The Living Free Workshop is a lot less expensive than years and years of couple therapy or addiction treatment. The Living Free Workshop is extremely affordable. So just go with me here for just a second.
What if you enrolled in The Living Free Workshop first, before you try the next therapist or the next program or even the next, like, abuse ceasation coach. The total runtime for the living free workshop is only two hours and 20 minutes. And the workbook is incredible, but you don’t even have to do the workbook. You can just watch the videos.
The longest video is six minutes and the shortest one is only 28 seconds. The average video is about three minutes long. I’ve made them all really short. So that you could process the information. The idea is just watch the whole thing. Again, the runtime is only two hours and 20 minutes. Then as you find the next therapist or program for your husband. At least you’ll be educated about this type of abuse and how to protect yourself.
And if your husband has an abusive character. And if a couple therapy isn’t going to work, you’ll be able to recognize that very quickly. So that knowledge will save you tons of money and tons of time. And if he doesn’t have an abusive character, and therapy will help. You’ll see that clearly too.
Does He have an abusive character?
Anne: Is my husband addicted? The Living Free Workshop just gives you the skills to be able to see what is happening. Because I don’t want any woman in the world to be abused, ever. And if it is abuse, it’s imperative that you have the information you need to protect yourself.
So those are the three reasons why exploitative material is abusive. Number one, because it fuels trafficking. Number two, because it’s abusive to spouses and number three, because it’s abusive to the relationship.
I can’t tell you how many women I’ve talked to over the years, thousands. Who told me that once they got this information. Once they understood from The Living Free Workshop how to determine if he really had an abusive character. Once they knew the emotional safety strategies, how everything changed in their life for the better.
They were finally able to get some traction and protect themselves. And that’s my hope for you too. To learn more, click this link.
When Healing Emotional Wounds in Relationships: Bad Advice
Nov 18, 2025
Healing emotional wounds in relationships, especially from a toxic marriage, is vital to our emotional health. Here’s how to find the right support. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of abuse that cause emotional wounds, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Step 1: Recognizing What Caused The Emotional Wounds
Step 2: Getting Safe Help For Healing Emotional Wounds in Relationships
If you discover the emotional wounds are from your husband’s abuse, the next step is to get the support to heal. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.
Here are some examples of when support isn’t emotionally safe enough to help heal your wounds:
Has the professional or therapist given equal weight to his abusive narrative, his lies and the truth?
Does the support person think that you played a role in causing the abuse?
If you haven’t found the right support yet, know that we’re here for you. Listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to hear women’s share what resources helped them define what really caused the emotional wounds.
Transcript: Healing Emotional Wounds After Trauma
Anne: Today I’ll interview a woman who was victimized by a helping professional. We’re gonna call her Esther. Before we get to her story, I’m going to talk about healing emotional wounds from relationships. Step one is recognizing what caused the emotional wounds. If you don’t know what caused it, it’s hard to get the right kind of help.
Healing emotional wounds takes the right kind of help. If you go to a professional or therapist, and they give equal value to his abusive narrative or his lies and the truth. That’s not safe. You can’t heal the emotional wounds if they’re still occurring, especially if they’re coming from a helping professional.
As Esther shares her story, you’ll see that she correctly identifies what happened to her in her marriage. Then she’s gonna talk about the emotional wounds she received when she went for help. And it wasn’t a safe situation, welcome Esther. I’m so honored that you’d share your story. Will you go ahead and start?
Esther: Hi, thank you for having me. So I was married and had a lot of kids. I was a homeschooling mom. And I went online looking for answers. I took some quiz. I think it was a domestic violence recovery organization in the UK. At the end, it said you are being abused, you are being mistreated. And it was the first time those words or thoughts came into my mind. I just never saw that. I always thought, oh, he has ADHD, or depression, or it’s his culture.
Seeking Help & Initial Steps
Esther: And the fact that I might be intentionally harmed, controlled, and manipulated was a shocking, painful realization. So, I went straight away into the helper mode, okay, what can we do, what can he do, what can I do? And, I went into, support for myself, for DV victims, through my county.
I put my kids in counseling, and I asked my husband to please go to abuser counseling. Because I didn’t understand what a deep entrenched issue it was. I thought it was like a mistake or something that could be unlearned. I wasn’t focused on the deep emotional wounds that were occurring at the same time. And I was thinking, well, he’ll just go to a class and realize that this is bad, and we’ll just move on. I just saw it as, okay, let’s fix this.
I said, you have to go to a abuser intervention program, you have to do this, or my thought was separation. Divorce wasn’t part of my view as a Christian at that time. I’ve since changed my view. I don’t believe God wants abuse. But at that time, I gave him a list of things to do. They were supposedly proofs that he was changing. It included having a mentor, going to therapy, and going to an abuser program.
He went to two abuser groups. He would apologize a lot. And I’d get all these words and flowers. And he just lied to the therapists. He’d manipulate therapists. And that was disturbing, because he used them against me.
Anne: Were you aware of any pornography use, cheating, infidelity, or anything like that?
Esther: His views of women were warped, very misogynist, using me as an object.
Understanding The Depth Of Abuse
Esther: I used to put religious labels on this and make it a holy thing. But as I started to get more and more free, I recognized that his view of women was a big part of the mistreatment of me, the emotional wounds were so deep. And unfortunately, that would cause harm to my daughters. That showed me that this was a lot bigger than me. I remember looking at his computer I was like, who is this man really?
There were secrets in his life, because he’d hide money from me in a weird way. I homeschooled four kids, and one of them has an autism diagnosis. So that took all my time. And I didn’t really have time to notice or pay attention to myself. I was all about the kids. I was all about trying to teach my son well. When I recognized, I’m an abused woman, I pivoted in my mind, like, how did this happen? How did I end up here?
I had a million questions, so I just started reading every book I could. What is abuse? How do I recognize it? What about me made me vulnerable? How do I know he’s changing? So I was just a sponge reading every book I could find. God opened my eyes and I started to see he could stop. It was possible, but he wasn’t. And because of that, we did get divorced, and I started running for personal healing.
Anne: Were you partially running toward healing because you were still experiencing abuse?
Esther: Oh, that’s an excellent question. I was experiencing post separation abuse. I was still trying to find help.
Healing Emotional Wounds While Experiencing Post-Separation Chaos
Esther: I went to a parent coordinator, told him everything. It was very traumatizing, because he’d asked me these personal questions. Well, when you did this, how did you feel? When you did this, how did you feel? And I would just be bringing up all these emotionally abusive episodes that resulted in deep emotional wounds, crying, and my ex had no empathy whatsoever. And hoping for help.
He just sat there like a stone while I’m crying. And when my ex went to the bathroom, the parent counselor said, I know what’s going on with you. I’ve seen it before. I just want you to know, even if you win, he will make you lose. And I’m like, what? He’s like, yeah, so if you get what you believe is owed to you in court, this guy’s going to come behind you in a covert way and take revenge.
And that ended up being true. When I was winning in court, he went after one of my kids in a vicious way. And so I’m trying to get him in home therapy and advocate for him at his school. Meanwhile, he’s just telling lies about me. And I started to wonder, like is he having a psychotic break? Is he actually perceiving reality wrongly? Or is he just lying? Why would he do that? Yeah, so the post divorce time was awful.
Anne: I’m guessing people are treating you as if you just need to heal. Rather than recognizing that you can’t even begin to heal because you’re still being abused post divorce. So when women talk to other people and they say well, didn’t you divorce him a year ago? Don’t you just need to move on?
Seeking Validation & Understanding
Anne: They don’t realize that the abuse you’re experiencing is still real time, like it happened today or yesterday. It’s not something that’s in the past. So many women talk about their PTSD, and I’m like, it’s just TSD. Because it’s not post, it’s current. It’s happening now. You can’t heal from these deep emotional wounds while still experiencing harm.
Esther: That’s right. A big question on my heart was, why did he do this? I loved him, I had children with him, why would he treat me this way? And part of that understanding was to help me navigate that extremely difficult post separation period. I read this book by a famous author. Like, oh wow, look at this, look at that. And I remember being very impressed and motivated by the book.
Certain ideas in the book were very empowering for me. Because of that, I would quote it to my friends. A lot of us didn’t really have a correct understanding of intentional control or coercive control. When a person intentionally controls another person. By controlling their emotions, information, and I guess the main idea in the book is that it is intentional. So the book felt empowering. Like, this man is choosing to do this to avoid chores and helping with the children.
He’s doing it to avoid being equal to me. He’s doing it to gain an advantage over me. And it seemed to answer certain questions I had in my heart, because my ex was covert. In certain ways, I mean, I see it pretty clearly now, but it was so covert.
Attending The Retreat To Heal From Relationship Wounds
Esther: I had to constantly return to he’s not wanting an equal relationship, he’s wanting power over me. He’s willing to wound me to have that. And I had to continue to go back to it to survive emotionally and help my kids survive. What happened next is, I went to the famous author’s website and found that he offered a retreat for women, leaving abusive relationships. So that they were post abuse. And I thought it might be a good thing for me.
So I got someone to watch for my children. Got time off work. I went to the retreat. It was held in a beautiful location. It was green. I went, with a very open heart. Ready to be vulnerable. I was looking forward to a place where I could be very open about what I’d gone through in the marriage. I think many moms who are survivors who have to go to work. We are not really letting people know what we’ve gone through. I definitely didn’t talk about it that much.
I was just functioning and trying to get things done and paying the bills. So, I was looking forward to being in a place where I could talk about what had happened and not be judged. And receive healing, wisdom, and validation from other women. I remember when he first walked in the door, he looked at me, he made eye contact, and I noticed him noticing me. And it was like longer than just a normal, hi, how are you? I noticed that I was sort of on his radar.
Healing Emotional Wounds And Regaining My Personality
Esther: And I was flattered, I was excited. So I’d only been divorced one year, but I was pregnant. Right after my divorce, it wasn’t wise, but I love my baby. He’s amazing. I’m so thankful for him. So I’m going into this retreat to heal from these emotional wounds. They had sent an email. If you have a gift for the group, why won’t you come and perform for us and share it? And I was a certified Zumba instructor. So, I was like, I’m sure I can lead Zumba for you guys.
And I also offered to help with karaoke, because I used to sing at different churches. And I did that. Like, yay, let’s do this.
Anne: The idea of being seen, your talent’s being seen and appreciated. We don’t feel seen or appreciated in our abusive marriages, so of course you’d be excited about that.
Esther: You’re right, yeah, that’s so true. I lost my identity in that marriage. The things that I loved, I sacrificed everything, and when I was divorced, I started regaining my personality. I started remembering, oh, I love to sing. I can sing. Oh, I like to go to the gym. I can go to the gym. My ex didn’t like me going to the gym. So, it was always a stressful thing to go to the gym. I’d be stressed to leave the kids at home.
He’d make negative or mocking comments about the gym. So, it was one of the many things I let go of when I was married. Just these aspects of my personality. I’d start to gain them back one at a time. It was amazing. And going to that retreat was supposed to be part of that journey.
Uncomfortable Moments At The Retreat
Esther: Unfortunately, it took a negative turn. Not immediately, but during that retreat, the famous author was giving me attention. I didn’t think anything unusual of it, because I’m friendly, extroverted, like talking to people, and I like to be an A student. Sort of like, here’s the teacher, let me heal emotional wounds. So I was all in, and he’s like, Oh, do you guys have any questions?
And one of my questions was, what advice would you give for a future writer? And he said, well, let’s meet in the morning and talk about it. So he had a writer’s group in the morning, based on that question I had. And he was talking to me a lot. I don’t know if my radar was not recognizing that was unusual, but I liked it. You know, I’m getting all this attention from this famous guy.
There was one strange part where we were standing in this circle facing one direction, giving the person in front of us a back rub. Then you turn to the other side and give the other person a back rub. I remember thinking that was strange, because so many of us were survivors of intimate abuse. And we definitely didn’t want people touching us. I remember thinking, ew, I don’t know if I like this, this feels weird. It wasn’t that cool.
First Date & Red Flags
Esther: Following the retreat, the famous guy and I were emailing. And then we ended up talking on the phone, we ended up chatting it up a bit. It starts to feel kind of datey. I start to gain the vibe he’s interested. And then he decides to visit me in my town, and asked me if he could stay at my house with my kids. Which I thought was super strange. I’m like, I’ve got kids here. No way. So I told him there are many hotels near my house, so he stayed at a hotel.
After these weeks of flirty emailing and phone calls, we meet early in the morning on our first date. And we’re together the whole day. We’re holding hands. We’re kissing. It’s very romantic. He seemed great. However, as the day went on, when we were talking in different places. I remember noticing that something was off in how he was acting.
I noticed there were two voices, there was like the professional guy, that was like, oh, I’m so sweet and I’m so empathetic to you. Then there was another voice, and when that second voice came out, I started getting fear in my stomach. It was like an internal alarm. Just feminine intuition, he didn’t do anything violent, part of my mind is panicking. Like, who am I here with?
Then the other part was like, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m imagining it. Later on, we were in his hotel room. We started to get more physical. He went faster than I wanted. He did more than I wanted him to do, and I asked him to stop.
Healing Emotional Wounds In Relationships: When The Help Makes It Worse
Esther: He did stop. I remember him lying on his back, looking up at the wall with this, like, cold face. Kind of pissed off, like angry. I didn’t know he’d be furious about that. When I look back, I’m like, oh, he probably just came for sex and was probably irritated when it didn’t happen. The next morning, I made him, breakfast. He was just looking at me like, what is your problem? And, I don’t know if the word is scared, but I cannot wait till he’s gone. And then he finally left.
He said goodbye, smiled this like a fake smile at me, and then he turned and he was cold as ice and irritated. I’ll never forget the way his face changed. It was shocking. I felt this pain throughout my body. Like, in my brain. My thoughts were not connecting. I was ruminating about the situation.
It just kept going around and around in circles like how the heck could that man be this? When he’s writing these books. Who is he even? He’s acting this way with someone healing from emotional wounds in relationships?
Anne: All women resist abuse, and that’s something people don’t understand. It gets turned into victim blaming, rather than realizing that any woman who’s been victimized will want to piece her dignity back together. Sometimes confronting an abuser is a way that we feel like we might piece our dignity back together. Can you talk about that?
Esther: I didn’t immediately cut off communication, because I didn’t want it to be true. It’s like, no, this could not be possible. I guess I was in disbelief.
When Professionals Prey On Women
Esther: I didn’t want people to read a book by this guy and then go to his retreats, and he’s a jerk. It was horrible. I was like, can that actually be true? You know, like I wanted my world to make more sense. I wanted the guy from the book back.
Anne: Because you felt so validated in his books. Does it invalidate all these things you learned? And maybe it’s your fault, like your husband said? So you experience additional abuse while healing emotional wounds from your past relationship.
Esther: Yes, that’s exactly it. Does it make his books wrong? For a long time, I wanted it to be my fault. Because that was better than knowing that this guy with this great book everyone loves is fake. I’d rather, something was wrong with me. You know, I didn’t want to discover what I discovered. Even when it was over with him and me, and I processed it. I was like, that was weird that he dated me after I was at the retreat when he’s basically a counselor.
You know, not someone who charges for a retreat. He knows what power is. He understands power differentials. And he knows, he knows that’s not right. It feels so yucky. Like, why do I have so much trauma from this? Like, why is my brain getting numb? It doesn’t feel like, oh, I went on a date and it was a bad date. It feels more violating.
I decided to research and try to find out if there were more victims, I met some of those people, and I found out that I was not alone. If you really want to test out, if a man is abusive, tell him no.
Futility Of Confronting The Abuser
Anne: Yeah, you told him no and you saw what happened, and then you had it confirmed by these other victims who had experiences with him. I’m so glad you got that validation from those other women. I want to pause right here and talk about one section of that book at the end. It says something like, to change these guys, everyone would need to confront them. You know, the therapist, their church leader, the police, like everybody in the community.
We’re all desperate for our abuser to change, when healing from emotional wounds in relationships. So that we can keep our family together. I mean, I’ve interviewed over 300 abuse victims, long form interviews like this one, hour long interviews. So what victims take from his writing is the impression that even if it’s a long shot. I’m going to see if I can get the therapist, clergy, police, and his mother and everyone to confront him. And then maybe he’ll see the light, maybe that will save my marriage.
I tried that, I think so many women have, and it didn’t work. The court didn’t hold my ex accountable. In fact, when I tried to reduce his custody for abusing my kids, the court gave him more custody. And I sought God’s help to discover what would free me from my ex’s abuse, and through that, I discovered these great strategies. that I put in the Living Free Workshop. I had to do it like that, because it’s not like anything anybody has ever heard before. And I had to set it up the right way.
Healing Emotional Wounds By Using our Workshop Strategies
Anne: So The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop helps women understand who they are, and then how to strategically deal with them. And helps them get to emotional and psychological safety, when healing from these emotional wounds from marriage. However, that looks for you. And then observe from a safe distance. Because many of us have been manipulated to be detached from our intuition. Through the Living Free Workshop, through everything I do here at BTR.
My hope is to give women the confidence to reconnect with their gut, and you did that. On that date with him, your intuition was warning you, and you listened. Even if you didn’t want it to be true, you took at least a mental step back and started observing. That will always lead victims to the truth.
Esther: That’s so true. Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah, because I confronted him. Can’t you at least admit, you shouldn’t be dating the women you teach about abuse? It did not go well. He was gaslighting. I left that 30 minute conversation feeling completely confused. I was like, that was not wise. Which is interesting that he would actually give advice to confront people.
Anne: Because they actually like confrontation. The Living Free strategies came to me over years of all these interviews, but also my own experience. And one of the things I saw over and over again was in custody cases. Where the women had a lot of proof of their abuse. Even then, the abusers walk into court, super excited and happy. Court really stresses victims out. I mean, we think it’s miserable and super stressful. This type of abuser likes the confrontation that the court affords them.
Abusers Like To Fight
Esther: That’s true. They like to fight.
Anne: And so if they can get hold of something, some emotion, something we want from them. It could be an apology, it could be that they stop doing what they’re doing, anything. The only thing they see is a way to manipulate us. That’s it. That’s why observing from a safe distance is safer for victims, rather than trying to get him to do something. Whether that be an abusive husband, ex-husband, therapist or counselor.
Esther: Absolutely.
Anne: Well, Esther, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know it’s been so traumatic. I think it’s important to hear these stories, so women know what can happen when they go for help. And how to recognize the right kind of help. Because it’s impossible heal from emotional wounds if we’re still receiving emotional wounds. So thank you so much for sharing your story today.
The Truth About Clergy Misconduct
Nov 11, 2025
It is crucial for women to recognize the signs of clergy misconduct, as those who experience betrayal or emotional abuse often turn to their faith communities for solace and support. Here’s what you need to know.
Dave Gemmel, Associate Director of the NAD Ministerial Association, joins Anne Blythe, M.Ed. to discuss clergy misconduct. Congregants seek spiritual guidance, compassion, and leadership from clergy. When pastors, bishops, and other spiritual leaders use their authority to destroy a congregant’s trust or faith in God through misconduct, that sacred role is diminished, and victims may experience severe trauma, which often includes a crisis of faith.
Dave enumerates some of the ways that clergy can violate trust and commit misconduct:
abuse
adult sexual abuse
harassment
rape
sexual assault
sexualized verbal comments or visuals
unwanted touches and advances
use of sexualized materials including pornography
stalking
sexual abuse of youth or those without mental capacity to consent
misuse of the pastoral/ministerial position
Failing to protect a victim of abuse
Can include criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities.
Understanding How Clergy Misconduct Happens
As Dave explains, pastors have spiritual authority, which makes it impossible for an “asymmetrical relationship” between himself and a congregant. Because of the lack of “considered mutual consent,” a sexual relationship with a pastor or bishop is not an affair, but abuse. Women who have experienced this form of abuse may blame themselves, but abuse is never the victim’s fault.
When clergy take advantage of their position of power, congregants may feel disloyal or unworthy if they report misconduct. Furthermore, congregants, especially abused women, may not know they have betrayal trauma. Utilizing women’s intuition helps prevent clergy misconduct. Because women have adept intuitive abilities to decipher safe or unsafe individuals, Dave suggests all religious organizations implement a 50% policy.
This means that in search committees, boards, and other leadership committees that determine who is leading a congregation, women make up at least half of the group. When women discover betrayal and identify abuse in their relationships, they often seek support from clergy. Dave recommends that women and couples do not seek therapeutic counseling from clergy.
Instead, women suffering from the effects of betrayal and abuse can utilize professionals who are trained in trauma and abuse.
Trained coaches lead the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. If you are seeking validation, empowerment, knowledge, and support, join the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group today and find the community you deserve.
Transcript: The Truth About Clergy Misconduct
Anne: Today, I’m with Dave Gemmel. He’s an associate director of the NAD ministerial association. He received his doctorate of ministry with an emphasis on multicultural leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary in 1992. He began pastoring in the San Francisco bay area in 1978. Welcome Dave.
Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne. It is a delight to be with you, and I love your mission. Betrayal Trauma Recovery aims to protect women from emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and coercion. We are on the same page.
Anne: Let’s just dive right in to talking about clergy misconduct. Many think it is only preying upon minors. Could you please define it?
Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a mouthful, isn’t it? Clergy misconduct, typically, we think of all the stories in the news, stories of the Catholic Church with pedophilia, abusing little boys in the church, and so that’s what comes to mind when we think of clergy misconduct, but the scope is actually a lot bigger than that. If I could just give a little preface here before we jump into it.
Clergy, many, if not most, have advanced education and have been carefully screened before endorsement by their congregations. Most are highly trained, behave with great integrity and professionalism. Having said all that, there is a segment of volunteers and professional clergy who violate sacred trust, and in doing so damage the reputation of all clergy.
Pastor Dave: Here are some of the things it can include. Abuse, adult sexual abuse, harassment, rape, sexual assault, sexualized verbal comments or visuals and unwelcome touch and advances. The use of inappropriate materials. Including pornography, stalking, sexual abuse of youth, or those without capacity or consent. Also misuse of the pastoral ministerial position, and sometimes criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities.
So that’s an official definition of misconduct by clergy. That’s in the Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church, which is one of the best out there.
Anne: So in your definition, you said gender directed behaviors. Are you talking about misogyny?
Pastor Dave: Yeah, that absolutely is misogyny. And that is proclaiming that women are not as valuable as men. And men have the right to dictate women’s behavior.
Anne: Let’s talk about your contention that pastors can’t have affairs with church members. And why when people say, oh, he had an affair with a member of his congregation, that’s not a thing.
So any intimate relationship between a pastor and a congregant, I believe, is clergy misconduct. and cannot be considered mutual consent.
Even if it’s not physical coercion, the clergy is the one in a position of spiritual and emotional power and must be held responsible for the abuse of power.
Therapists & Clergy: Positions Of Power
Pastor Dave: So, any relationship between a spiritual leader and a member is not having an affair. It is clergy misconduct.
Anne: Thank you for making that so clear. It’s the same type of thing, where can you have an affair with your therapist? And the answer is also no, because he’s in a position of power. His role is to treat you for a mental illness. I think that that would fall into the same category in terms of therapy or other professionals.
Pastor Dave: Absolutely, and a therapist should lose their license and be barred from practicing. It’s on a continuum, and the reality is there are some predators who’ve managed to become clergy. The biggest study was done, it’s from the Journal of Scientific Study of Religion, titled Prevalence of Clergy Advances Toward Adults in Their Congregations. It was a twofold study. Victims of clergy misconduct were studied from a wide range of religions.
They were asked to tell their stories of abuse. And in almost all these cases, the clergy offenders in a series of small acts broke down the natural defenses. And took advantage of a position of spiritual power to eventually make the relationship inappropriate. But what do we call that? That’s a predator. And somehow there are a few of these predators that have managed to get in among the ranks of spiritual leaders.
It’s so dangerous, and here’s why, because the victims, the families, and the congregation did not seem to notice it. Or they refuse to confront the clergy. So there’s this special fog in a congregation that people aren’t looking for that, and so they don’t see it. And it makes a nice cloaking place for these predators in the ministry.
So even if they don’t belong to their same congregation, do you find that these types of predators use their titles for grooming others, not just people in their congregation?
Pastor Dave: You know, predators use whatever tools they can and if they can use a spiritual position they’ll do whatever they can to achieve their goal.
Anne: I think it’s an automatic way to gain people’s trust. So what steps can churches take in the prevention of clergy misconduct?
Pastor Dave: A few things. First of all, make sure that at least 50% of your search committee, policy committees, or boards, or however your church or synagogue is set up, 50% need to be women. And here’s why. I believe God created man and woman, and they complete humanity. If you just have one gender, you only get half of the picture. And so if there are only men on these committees, you’re half blind!
Many times women can pick up on things that men were clueless to. So it’s imperative that there is a 50% at least on all these committees. Does that sound wild to you? That’s my goal.
Anne: I think it sounds amazing. In my particular faith, that is not even an option right now.
Gender Balance On Church Committees
Anne: I’m like, oh, that would be a miracle if a woman complained and said, Hey, this was creepy. So many men would just be like, Oh, he’s just a nice guy. Don’t worry about it. You’re overreacting. And so, having women make up 50% would make a huge difference, because men seem to dismiss women’s statements about factual things or their intuition that something isn’t quite right.
Pastor Dave: Because most of us men have not experienced unwanted advances. To us, it’s just completely off our radar. It’s something we can’t relate to. And many women have. So immediately they pick up on it. That’s why we need women in these decision-making positions.
Anne: I love that, I’m going to pray for that in my own faith.
Pastor Dave: When a congregation or group selects a spiritual leader, you gotta check references. You know, we do that in business, how much more important it is in spiritual life. Now, when I say check references, that’s not just checking the resume and making the cursory calls on the resume.
https://youtube.com/shorts/ixVDYZDSVfc
But it’s calling previous congregations and talking to people in previous congregations, others who have worked with them and dig and dig and dig. And if this person is a predator, things will pop up. It may not be obvious, but three or four phone calls and following some threads, it may be possible to uncover any clergy misconduct.
Anne: Let’s talk about how the position of clergy can be problematic for someone with an exploitative character.
Pastor Dave: This is the heart of our conversation right now.
Safe Practices For Congregants
Pastor Dave: This may sound radical, but let me say, don’t go to your pastor or bishop for counseling. That’s a no no. It’s dangerous to go to pastors or spiritual leaders for counseling. And here’s why. Formal training of pastors, and particularly lay leaders, does not equip them to engage in counseling. Counseling is full of supervised counseling that takes thousands of hours before you become certified. It takes certification by state and governing bodies.
Anne: So many victims go to clergy for spiritual counseling. What’s the difference between spiritual counseling and the counseling you’re talking about.
Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a good question. Spiritual counseling, I don’t think that’s appropriate. I think it’s much better in a support group to develop those spiritual skills and insights. As far as one-on-one counseling, I think that’s out of the question, whether spiritual or otherwise.
Anne: One thing I suggest is if you’re going into clergy to report your husband’s abuse, inappropriate content use or coercion. Or any type of abuse, emotional or psychological abuse.
Always take another woman with you who understands abuse. From our experience, you are at the greatest risk of him giving you bad advice. Or saying things like, well, just have more intercourse with him, or how many times do you have it? We get the craziest things clergy has said to victims of abuse. Are you making dinner? Are you praying? Stuff like that.
Pastor Dave: That’s a great suggestion, and that leads me to don’t meet with a pastor by yourself.
Anne: We’re on the same page, yay!
The Role Of Clergy In Counseling
Pastor Dave: We are. This is not rocket science here. This is just a simple practical device that comes out of years and years of bad practice and seeing examples of clergy misconduct. So we need to turn it around and have a good practice to ensure there is no clergy misconduct. So here’s some suggestions. Don’t meet with the pastor by yourself. If you do, find places to meet people where others can observed you.
Alright, so I don’t know if the pastor has an office. If so, the office door should be open, there should be someone within eyesight of the office. I would suggest that if there’s no office, meet at a public place. Coffee shop, ice cream shop, if we’re in Salt Lake City. Most of all, choose a place where you feel safe. And if you want to bring a friend with you, that will increase safety awareness.
Anne: Let’s talk about that for a minute. So, many women will go to clergy to be absolved of their own sins. They’re embarrassed, they don’t want anyone else to know. What would you tell women in this scenario who are ashamed of their own behavior?
They want to repent. And they’re thinking, I don’t wanna tell my mom, so my mom can’t come in with me to speak to my bishop or pastor, or perhaps some scenario like that. What advice would you give for women in that situation?
Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we’ll get into a theological discussion right now, because I’m not into that at all. As a pastor, I think that’s between them and the Lord.
Pastors & Congregants, Power Dynamics
Pastor Dave: If they want a support group, a group is a great place to do it. As a spiritual leader, I don’t want to look out at my congregation and know specifically what their sins are. I mean, that’s crazy.
Anne: That’s interesting. So that would be a theological difference, obviously, between yours and my faith. Because in my faith, you’re expected to confess serious sins, and that’s part of the repentance process. You also would get that in like the Catholic faith, confession. And there’s several other faiths who believe in that spiritual practice of confession.
Pastor Dave: Absolutely, again, this is theological. I don’t believe as a member of the clergy that I have any absolving power over sin. That’s something that is between God and the person. So that’s not a power that I believe I’ve been bequeathed with. But yeah, we could get into a theological discussion.
Anne: Yeah, I’m grateful for your insight. So thank you for sharing that. I’ve actually never considered that’s not clergy’s role before until right this second, talking to you. If you have anything else you want to add, I’m happy to hear it.
Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we can have a Bible study sometime, take a look at it. That would be fun.
Anne: Yeah, that’s awesome. You’re opening my mind. Thank you, for the purposes of this podcast, let’s continue talking about the guidelines that can keep congregants safe.
Other Things To Prevent Clergy Misconduct
Pastor Dave: A couple other things to prevent clergy misconduct, keep messaging professional. So whatever the messaging is, whether it’s a phone call, a text or an email. Look at that text, that messaging, make sure it is professional. That it doesn’t, well, you used the word creepy. And that there’s nothing in there that says this relationship is or could be something more than what it is already, a professional relationship.
And if it goes beyond that, the bell should be going off and say, Hey, there’s a problem here. So here are some things to do to prevent clergy misconduct from happening. If it’s email, reply back and CC some people, so they can see what’s going on. If it’s text messaging, increase it to a group message with some trusted people.
Phone calls, make sure you have someone in the room with you when you’re having that phone call, put it on speakerphone if you have to. So all these things will provide safety barriers from someone on the other end who may be, and you don’t know for sure, may be a predator.
Anne: I’m so grateful that you’re talking about this in such a candid way. Thank you so much. So for the purposes of this podcast, since my listeners are victims of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion from their husbands. Who often go into clergy. And in my particular faith, the clergy is volunteer. None of them are highly trained, but I have heard stories from all faiths, that often clergy doesn’t understand abuse and gives victims of abuse harmful counsel.
General Clergy Misconduct
Pastor Dave: That may not be considered clergy misconduct, but it certainly is unprofessional and does not fit with the sacred trust of ministry. I would call it pastoral misconduct or clergy misconduct in general.
Anne: Yeah. So let’s talk about this. My podcast is interfaith. So I speak with women who are Catholic Baptist, Jewish, every denomination of every type of faith. Women report that these interactions with clergy are traumatizing. When they talk about their husband’s abuse. They receive responses like you need more intercourse, or you need to be a Biblical woman and submit.
So specifically to my listeners, when they’re not in the scenario of experiencing clergy misconduct. Meaning there’s no intimate relationship with clergy, but they are experiencing clergy misconduct in general. Because they get misinformation when they go for help.
Pastor Dave: I’m going to give just a really easy answer. Don’t go to your pastor for marital counseling. Honestly, I mean, I have my doctorate, and I do not consider I have enough education to do marriage counseling. And if I begin, I am outside my knowledge base, and I am bound to give some stupid advice. So, I’d rather not do that. And for your listeners, I would rather they don’t get stupid advice either.
If they’re going to someone who knows less than they do, I mean, what’s the point? That’s a waste of time. Go to someone who actually has competency in that area.
Anne: Women also report going to family or marriage counseling and having it go off the rails. And not keep them safe. So this isn’t just a clergy issue.
Understanding Emotional & Psychological Abuse
Anne: This is a serious societal issue about people not understanding emotional and psychological abuse, how to spot it, and how to help victims get to safety. Similarly, my advice to our listeners is don’t go to a marriage and family therapist because they are bound by their licensing to see it as an equal problem. With an abuse situation, you really need a professional who genuinely understands emotional and psychological abuse and coercion.
Because it’s not just a communication issue where you’re going to improve your communication, and things will get better. If you are wondering if you’re emotionally abused, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
Pastor Dave: And I would advise those in a position of spiritual power to work with groups such as yours that really have good skills in this area.
Anne: Yeah, that’s fantastic. So that’s what we specialize in. Emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, especially when it’s difficult for people to see it. Even victims themselves, when they’re not educated about it. It’s very difficult for them to even understand what’s going on. When we educate women about it, they’re like, Oh, now this is clear. So let’s go back to clergy misconduct.
If there’s anyone listening who has experienced this or is experiencing it currently. I’m sure there are many listeners whose husbands are pastors or clergy. Who know their husband had misconduct with one of the congregation members. This is the wife of the pastor, who is aware of her husband’s misconduct.
So I would say it’s more likely that someone is listening in this scenario. However, I’m sure there are also women who have experienced intimate misconduct themselves.
Advice For Victims Of Clergy Misconduct
Pastor Dave: And that number is not small. Referring to that previous study, over three percent of women in any congregation have experienced clergy misconduct. So it’s not a small group of people. And I’m imagining that maybe one of your listeners has experienced it, and they’ve listened to it. And they say, yeah, that’s me. What do I do about it?
I think the first thing you need to know is it’s not your fault. It’s a predator’s fault, not yours. You are a victim. You are a victim of clergy misconduct. So don’t feel guilty about it. And if you’re ready, and you have support, speak up. And then find people that can walk on that healing journey with you.
Anne: And what would you say to the many wives who know about their husband’s misconduct and who have not been removed from their positions?
Support For Wives
Anne: In fact, we have over 60,000 women in our community, and offer Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. We hear stories of this frequently where their husband uses inappropriate material, for example, or he’s had an affair, not necessarily with a member of the congregation, but with somebody. And he has shown he doesn’t have intimate integrity or integrity at all because he’s lied about it. What would you say to wives in that scenario?
Pastor Dave: If the evidence is clear, and you’re willing to take the risk, take that evidence to the person that’s overseeing your husband, and make clear your husband should not be holding that office.
Anne: Yeah, we’ve had lots of women who have done that and then they’ve just been dismissed. So that’s the thing that’s really difficult for women as they sometimes try and try and then it just gets exhausting.
Pastor Dave: It’s tough. You have to have a support team with you. To do it all on your own, and you’re being gaslighted just makes it more and more difficult. So you need that strength of a community behind you. Because every step you take, it gets ratcheted up on the other side. So you have to be strong. And to be strong, you’ve got to have people behind you. You’ve got to have a group of people that can listen to you, believe you, support you, and encourage you.
Anne: Well, I appreciate everything you’ve shared today about clergy misconduct, thank you so much for your time.
Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne.
What Did God Say About Divorce? The Liberating Truth
Nov 04, 2025
You might think you already know the answer to this question: “What does God say about divorce?”
But here’s the thing, the Bible has told righteous people throughout all of time to separate themselves from wickedness. The word we use today for “wickedness” is abuse. So the first step to knowing what God may want you to do about your marriage is to discover if you’re experiencing emotional abuse. Click here to take my free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: What Did God Say About Divorce?
Anne: I have a member of our community. On today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Kayla. She’s going to be sharing her story. Kayla is a woman of faith. Part of her story is sharing when she realized she didn’t need to listen to what her pastor said. Or people at her church, so that she could develop her own relationship with God. And find out for herself what God says about divorce and marriage.
If you’re not a woman of faith, if you’re agnostic or atheist, her story will still relate to you. I don’t know why modern Christianity has taken this stance that the “other people” are dangerous. But refuse to see that maybe someone living in your own home is dangerous. The scriptures are clear about God’s stance on divorce and marriage.
4 Scriptures That teach what God Really Says About Divorce
Here are four that might help:
Proverbs 22:3 “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” So that means that we should separate ourselves from dangerous people.
II Corinthians 6: 17 “Therefore, come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing that I will receive you.” They’re talking about somebody who lies to you, somebody who is exploiting women.
Matthew 10:16 “I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.”
John 16: 13 “The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth.”
Obviously, God wants us to be safe and loves us, and that clergy or anyone else interprets scriptures to oppress us and tell us what God says about divorce and marriage,That’s spiritual abuse. And Kayla’s gonna share her story. The Holy Spirit warns and guides us. He helps us recognize danger and make decisions to protect ourselves.
Kayla’s Early Relationship
Anne: So welcome, Kayla.
Kayla: I’m glad to be here.
Anne: Let’s start at the beginning when you first met, did you recognize his abusive behaviors?
Kayla: Well, no, from the start he carried himself as a complete gentleman. We worked together at a Fortune 500 company. When we met, he kept boundaries. That made me believe he had values. He appeared to have everything I wanted, handsome, courteous, church going and a family man.
We had a lot of the same interests, new restaurants, bowling and cruising. His family loved me. My family loved him. He put me on a pedestal. And of course. I loved it. So I painted this picture of him, like this church going person with character. I couldn’t see him for who he was. You know, his behavior was subtle, like of financial, understanding or miscommunication.
And I just kind of attributed to his upbringing. We had kids pretty quickly. So three to four years into our marriage, I wasn’t feeling the connection anymore and I was trying to improve our relationship. I thought that God was clear on divorce and marriage.
I tried having deep conversations with him, but he often fell asleep or said we can talk later. But later never came. And he had this tendency to not follow through, and he was having this trouble not only at home, but also at work.
Work & Home Challenges
Kayla: He was an IT person, and when he wasn’t going to his customer’s desk to help them, he would fall asleep. When he did his work, he made mistakes when he had to write-up. The write up of what he did, he forgot to do it. Many times it went missing. He didn’t follow through. So he was getting to the point where they were putting him on probation. Because he was sleeping on the job because he wasn’t doing his job.
And the same things I was seeing at home, not following through, falling asleep in the middle of a conversation. So it’s what led me to say maybe you need to get in a professional evaluation.
Anne: Okay, so you’re thinking, let’s see if something’s wrong. Just hearing this part, I wonder if he wasn’t paying attention, because he was doing stuff late at night. Where he wasn’t getting a lot of sleep and distracted with the double life he had going on. That’s my prediction, so we’ll talk about it a little later. Okay, so he gets diagnosed?
Kayla: He was diagnosed with ADD. He got on a DD medicine, and that seemed to help him at work. I didn’t get the benefits. Even though he claimed to be taking a second pill when he got home. I didn’t see the benefits of the follow through, the discipline, the focus at all. I thought his forgetfulness, his lack of follow through, his emotional distance were all symptoms he couldn’t fully control and I just felt I needed to be patient and supportive.
What Does God Say About Divorce And Marriage? Efforts to Improve
Kayla: Like I set times, let’s talk every night at nine o’clock. Let’s talk about our feelings, let’s talk about our relationship, our finances. But most of those conversations, I was left feeling empty and unimportant. And yes, we sought counseling. We went to yearly marriage conferences with our church. We went to a pastor for advice and support. I was trying to hard to honor what God wanted in my marriage and to save us from divorce. So I suggested and we attend couples therapy to help our relationship.
I met with the therapist. He met with the therapist, and we met once a month. We paid over $7,000 for 13 weeks Christian transformation sessions. And besides, we were the president of the marriage ministry, helping others with their marriage. I did a lot of personal reflection and improvement. I took the time when he came home, that first 30 minutes, to let him be to himself.
Here’s What God Says About Divorce
And I remember coming home from the marriage conference, learning that our bodies were not ours. And we should meet our spouse’s needs. Whenever they asked, I tried it. And without the emotional connection, I felt hollowed, used. I just couldn’t do that.
Anne: Right.
Kayla: I read books, books like Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, How to Have a Healthy Marriage. Our marriage vows before God made it harder, I think, for me to see the truth. Because I was deeply rooted in the idea that my marriage covenant was sacred and unbreakable. So it kept me focused on holding the relationship together at all costs.
So I stayed with prayer, effort, and patience, while my ex-husband didn’t seek to improve. And I just kept praying and putting the effort in. Thinking I knew what God thought about divorce and marriage, and that I had to make it work.
Realization Of Deeper Issues
Kayla: I don’t know anyone who has put more effort into trying to hold their marriage together. I just did a lot to try to hold our marriage together.
Anne: When did you start realizing that all of this concerted effort was not working .
Kayla: Wow, so we attended this 13 weeks of extensive Christian transformation marriage sessions. It required that we work on a different aspect of our marriage every night. So we met in the weekly sessions. We had sessions directly with the Christian coaches, and we did something at night.
Anne: Was there abuse education as part of this intensive?
Kayla: No, it was all about seeking God, praying for your spouse, building your spouse up, looking at things differently. It was all saying that God hated divorce, and I had to save my marrriage.
Anne: So there was no abuse education whatsoever.
Kayla: Not at all. So we were talking every night. He started to come to bed, which you were alluding to. Many nights he did not come to bed. He stayed up all night long. And so things started feeling better. So much so that I believed we had reached a good place. But then things started happening again. I started feeling disconnected, and I went to him for some tweaks. Instead of trying to understand what I was feeling, what I was thinking.
He started deflecting and minimizing, and started talking about how he didn’t feel loved. And I put my feelings aside, and I asked him. Send me an email to explain why you don’t feel love and what it would look like for you to feel love.
Confronting The Truth
Kayla: He emailed me a letter. In this letter, he wrote things like, I would like you to serve me a plate of food and bring it to me. After intimacy, I want you to get me a cold drink. I want you to dress provocatively for our nights out.
I was just floored, he wanted me to do his chores. That was his responsibility in the house, like taking out the trash, pulling the cans to the street. And that letter, I realized I didn’t know this man I was married to. And I realized it had to do with his wants and removing his responsibilities in the house, more than me showing love to him.
Anne: Right.
Kayla: And that’s when I realized something is desperately wrong. And then I went back to our therapist, and I said, I want to ask him about watching exploitative material. Because early on in our marriage, it had come up. I caught I caught him looking at it, and he said, oh, if you don’t want me to look at it, I won’t look at it anymore. I believed him, but didn’t believe him. So what I mean by that is, every now and then I would check his computer.
I would check his phone, nothing. Nothing was there at all. But in that therapy session, when I asked the question, he looked down, his face looked flooded with shame, almost in tears. And he admitted he was addicted and had been since he was a teenager. He rationalized it in his mind that it was okay, because he wasn’t touching a woman in the flesh. It was at that moment that I realized that all the work I had been doing didn’t matter.
What Does God Say About Divorce And Marriage? He Admits He’s An Addict
Kayla: All the work that my therapist had done to build our relationship only worked in a healthy relationship. And I realized we didn’t have one. For 24 years he had been watching exploitative material. And later to find out so much more than that, but he said he had been watching it all day long.
Anne: And all night long.
Kayla: All night long.
Anne: Was my prediction accurate? That’s why he was so tired and distracted?
Kayla: Your prediction is 100% correct. He was up late at night. And one of my complaints was, why don’t you come to bed? And he would say, I’m not sleepy, and when I do come to bed too early, I can’t fall asleep. I just lay in bed.
Anne: Says the man who’s falling asleep all the time.
Kayla: Yes.
Anne: Mm-hmm, yeah, so when he tells you he’s been using, it’s not the whole truth at this point. Is he identified as an addict?
Kayla: He identified himself as a addict. But really, it was that moment, that moment when I realized the extent of his betrayal, just to paint the picture for you. I never thought he could deceive me, especially not in that way. So everything about us changed, and I realized I needed to rely on God. So my prayer just became God, uproot what’s in me, what’s in my husband, what’s in my marriage that’s not of you, I still was not considering divorce.
God, give my husband what he needs to be disciplined, focused, and changed. And if he’s not going to put the work in, do not let me move forward until you’ve made it clear that he’s changed and repentance of the heart.
Never Thinking It Could Be More
Kayla: I was so up in the head from the fact that he had deceived me. I had to rely on God. But even then, I would’ve never thought it could be more. Because we did almost everything together. He didn’t hang out. We went to work. He came home, he went to church, he came home. But he was manipulating things, so his phone, he was going in incognito mode. On the computer, he was going into private browsing. When he went to the store, he went to a sex massage parlor.
Or when we were on vacation finding a street prostitute. I just had no idea that any of this was going on. SAI asked him to go into a recovery program. He started SA, but he was only going once a week to say he was going. He wasn’t doing any of the work. I then joined Infidelity Survivors Anonymous. I spoke privately to someone in the group, and she recommended I receive a full disclosure and a polygraph test. Because he might be doing more than pornography.
And that’s what prompted me to eventually ask him if he had cheated with anyone during our marriage, under the certainty that he would have to take a polygraph test. That’s when things started becoming a little bit clearer. Because my ex was so covert, I kept saying, my ex just has a DD. My ex would never do that to me.
You know, he loves me. He’s trying, I was still making excuses for him in my head. I was thinking about forgiveness and mercy, and that’s what God wanted in my marriage, not divorce.
Anne: I wouldn’t say you’re making excuses per se. I think you’re still resisting the abuse.
Emotional & Financial Abuse
Anne: Safety is always a top priority for women. You’ve been trying to get to safety this whole time. You’re trying to get to emotional safety, you’re trying to get to psychological safety. You’re doing this through getting his ADD diagnosis through counseling. These are forms of resistance to abuse.
You are really safety focused this entire time. So it’s not that you’re in denial, it’s that you’re trying to get to safety with the information you have at the moment. So you can let yourself off the hook you only knew what you knew at that time. God wants us to be safe in our marriage, even if that means divorce.
Kayla: Right, at that moment I thought he only had an addiction. And I would’ve put my hands on the Bible that he never touched another woman. So when we had a therapy session. I asked him the question knowing that he was gonna have to take a polygraph test, and he said, yes, my brain left my body. Like I felt the abuse instantly.
It was like, what just happened? How could he have been pretending to be this man of God, this deacon at church? This church school teacher, all this time, telling me how much he loved me and was trying to do better. It made everything that I was thinking. That he was gaslighting me or deflecting and minimizing, and he was telling me that. Oh no, that’s not what’s happening. Oh, you are misinterpreting that. It made everything true for me.
He had not only been emotionally abusing me, but also financially abusing me. Because he was going to these massage parlors and with street prostitutes. I remember going to my therapist and saying to her, he’s deflecting, he has cognitive distortion.
What Does God Say About Divorce And Marriage? Therapist’s Perspective
Kayla: He’s selfish. At this point, she agrees with everything. And I said, when I look this up, it says this is all abuse. She’s like, it is. And I was shocked, like, why didn’t you tell me this? She said, well, I was treating him for these things in the hopes that I can help him get to the place where he can set goals. And work the goals, and be the person you were trying to get him to be.
Anne: Wow, wow.
Kayla: Yeah.
Anne: That is so insane, to be like I knew he was abusive. I had a therapist say the same thing to me. And I was like, it would be better if you said I didn’t know. Than to say I knew and didn’t tell you, because I thought I could change an abuser who is also lying to me. It’s like wild, that was really, really crazy.
Kayla: It was crazy, because I was doing anything and everything. And it had got to the point where I said to her, when I walk into my house, I feel bad energy. I’m not happy at home. Like I feel like running, I feel trapped. Now I’m finding out like there’s a clear reason why I felt that way, because of what was really going on.
And like you said, I was seeking safety. And I didn’t even realize I was seeking safety. I didn’t realize how much confusion I was under. I didn’t realize the person who said they would love me and take care of me for life was the one hurting me the most. God says “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” This was advice for marriage and divorce.
Seeking Clarity & Space
Anne: And deceiving you on purpose, and that is so, so painful. When we can finally wrap our heads around it. But it’s so difficult to perceive of that. It’s like mind bending. God says, “He will lead you to all truth.” about divorce and marriage.
Kayla: Yeah, so I had to decide what to do now. And it took me a minute, my brain was still confused. I was still going back. No, he would never do that. Oh no, he’s a nice guy. Oh, no, he cried at our wedding. So, I just needed him to leave my space, to get clarity. What is really going on? I asked him to leave the home. To give me that space, to do the research. To listen to podcasts, to do my reading to understand who he was and what he had been doing all along.
So I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. And you talked about betrayal trauma, and basically that’s what I was going through, right? And that’s when I started listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcasts. It was like an aha moment. Like listening to women tell their stories, and like, oh my goodness, that’s me. Oh my goodness, yeah. I felt that way. It just confirmed everything that I was thinking, feeling, and understanding.
Why other people couldn’t see it, right? Because he was Mr. Nice guy. Everyone loved him. He walked on water. And even though I’m telling people what he’s doing, what he did, they couldn’t see that. They couldn’t hear me and how I felt alone. Even with my friends, but listening to BTR, it was like, okay, I’m not alone. I’m not crazy.
Realizing The Extent Of Abuse
Kayla: There’s a reason why people don’t understand it. It’s all part of the facade. It’s all part of the abuse, the intentional intentional abuse. To keep the two separate, to make sure they think I’m the perfect person, because I will need them to support me at some point. So the help I got by listening to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And knowing that I wasn’t alone, and everything I was feeling was real.
But even with all that, I still said I would stay in this relationship, if I can see that he repented. And I just continued to pray to God, and eventually I got the clarity that he was not going to change. God was telling me what to do about divorce and marriage. This is who he is. That person I was trying to return to who I thought I was marrying, didn’t exist. He’s this person here, I need to admit that this is who he is. And all these years, I’ve just been under emotional, financial, and intiamate abuse, and that was hard to swallow.
But once I got there. Once I got that peace from God, that this is what’s going on. That’s when I finally am able to say I want a divorce. I think the biggest thing is why it took me 24 years to realize I was being abused, right? As much as I knew something was wrong, as much as I was stressed out. I felt like I was carrying the weight of the family financially. As much as I knew I was carrying that weight, I just thought it was what a wife should do. Stand by her man.
What God Says About Divorce And Marriage When Experiencing Covert Abuse?
Kayla: I didn’t know about covert, passive aggressive behaviors, and that’s what he was doing. I didn’t realize I had these thousand little cuts, and he was giving me these little bandaids to prevent the bleed out. Because everything he did, he did it under the pretense of, it was not my intention to hurt you. I’m so sorry. I love you. It hurts me when you don’t smile. We had a cycle of highs and lows that ironically strengthened the emotional ties I had to him.
And I clung to moments of kindness or affection, believing that was an indication of change in his behavior. I think also because of the good guy persona, right? I also wondered what was wrong with me. It appeared I had this good man, who went to work, went to church, and loved me. He just struggled with connection and consistency. But that’s because of the ADD. He wasn’t intending to hurt me. As this loving, supportive wife, it’s my job to support, help him, even if I’m drowning.
perception, leadingAlso just doubting myself, like everyone on the outside saw him as this perfect man. He had a reputation, and everyone loved him. That he was kind, charming, funny, and I didn’t see that complete person in my home. I allowed the confusion to trump how I felt by how others viewed him. And it caused me to question my own perception, leading to just more confusion and self-doubt.
But I think one of the bigger things was my faith. We were the presidents of the marriage ministry, and we were consistent churchgoers. I wanted to be a good example to God of not getting divorced and staying in my marriage.
Faith & Personal Growth
Kayla: And we were conditioned to prioritize forgiveness, patience, and harmony over our own wellbeing, which made it difficult to recognize that abuse. It’s not two people trying to make a relationship work, but when you go to people and they say to you, just pray harder. What’s your part in this? And you constantly keep saying, well, I need to do this because I made a commitment before God. Understanding what God says about divorce and marriage is confusing.
All those things makes it hard to see the abuse for what it is. Because no one brings up the word abuse because it’s not physical. And also it’s a lot of little things over time that I didn’t realize. You know, this may sound really crazy. I am closer to God. Than I’ve ever been right now because I realized the difference. I was committed to the church, to the religion, but I needed to build my own relationship with God, hear God for myself.
And not hear other people’s interpretation of what he was saying to me. You know, I was listening to the preachers, when they say, divorce is not an option. The Bible doesn’t say divorce is not an option. I needed to get in God’s face and to understand what he was saying to me. And not what other people thought it should be. My mom passed away from Covid in April of 2020, and I was crushed. I fell on my face and I couldn’t get back up for it felt like years.
Like losing her left a void. When I fell on my face in my marriage, it was different. I got back up so much faster, but the damage felt so much worse.
God’s Protection & Strength
Kayla: Why? because I realized through the grief that God is my comforter, that he’s my strength, and that he’s my everything and that I need to rely on him. Not anyone else. And even though I lost friends, I lost my church. I had God to help me through this process, the healing process. So I look at it differently, meaning that I have my own personal relationship with God not depending on other people interpretations.
Anne: A lot of women describe that time of being faithful, but feeling like God cared about the marriage. Or God cared about your husband, but he didn’t care about me, kind of a feeling. And then, realizing that God loves you and he really cares. He wants you to be safe. It’s such a different place to have that relationship just with God caring about how you feel. Than thinking that God doesn’t care about you unless you check off all these boxes.
Kayla: 100%, I did go through that feeling , I felt it when I lost my mom. Like, how could you do this God? With this situation, I felt it again, God, what did I do to deserve this? Right? And I had to realize He didn’t want me to feel like that, but on the other side of it, I said, you know what, God gave me two beautiful children from this. God loved me. God protected me while my ex was out there sleeping with prostitutes.
He protected me. God gave me the strength to be able to walk away from that marriage and even more. So he allowed me to align with him. God was telling me it was okay divorce and leave my marriage.
God says to Trust Intuition In Divorce And Marriage
Kayla: And as much as my ex did to me and the pain he caused me, he is in a worse situation than I’m in. I have found peace in God. I know that I’m loved by God. And I know that I’m a better person, even though I went through that. I’m a stronger person now. I’m more determined now. I understand where my strength comes from. I understand where my peace comes from. The intuition that was happening throughout our marriage that I was getting constantly.
Anne: Mm-hmm.
Kayla: Not having all the pieces together. I understand it now. I understand that was God talking to me the whole time and I didn’t put all the pieces together. But now moving forward, I learned to trust my intuition more. Because I know that God’s talking to me and telling me my safety is important in divorce and marriage. And I know that God loves me and I know that God is going to give me all that I lost in those years with my ex.
Through the pain with my ex and the finances with my ex, that he’s going give all that back to me.I know that everyone that listens to your podcast may not worship God, but I want everyone to trust your intuition. Trust what you’re seeing moreso than what you are hearing. I listened to the words and I didn’t really watch the actions.
Watch how do you feel, because no matter what their intention is how do you feel, what’s the impact to you? Because you’re important, and if you’re getting the impact, the intention doesn’t even matter.
Research & Confirmation
Kayla: Do the research. It was the research that made things a lot clearer for me when I was in this place of going back and forth. Not my acts, not mine, not mine, and made it clear. And the confirmations would just come. I would read something in the book and then I would see him do it. I was always taught what happens in your home, in your marriage. You don’t talk about, but if you are seeking help and you find someone to help you make sense of things.
I would advise you to have that conversation. Because when I finally did she had so many answers for me. She had been through something similar. She understood the abuse, and it was the only place that I really got the clarity of what this abuse looked like, so trust your intuition.
Anne: I love that through this process, women discover how smart, wise, and how capable they are. And realize that they were resisting the whole time and they were doing what they were supposed to do. You went for help to multiple, multiple places. That’s what someone smart does. And you got the wrong information.
And once you got the right information, you were able to make good decisions for yourself fairly quickly, and you would’ve made those decisions earlier if you had the information at that time. But the good news is you did the right thing the entire time. You are so brave and capable and have an amazing life ahead of you,
Kayla: Sometimes people stay together for their children.
Reflections On Children & Conversations
Kayla: He was hurting me, it was hurting my children in my home. My daughter was affected, to the point where she has a hard time vocalizing how she feels. She felt something was wrong all along, but didn’t know what it was. She learned to stuff her feelings because of that.
Sometimes when we think we are doing a justice by not having certain conversations with our children, we’re doing them an injustice. and I believe that. Me finding out about my ex not only saved me, it saved my daughter and helped her to know that she needed to, learn to use her voice. It saved my son who did not understand the dangers of it. It’s a conversation that I can freely have with other people in my family, which is usually a taboo conversation.
The conversation is always, this is what boys do. So it’s very important to have these conversations, I believe, especially when someone in your family has this addiction. To have this conversation with others, children and so on.
Anne: Yeah. That’s so important. Well, Kayla, thank you so much for sharing your story today. I appreciate your bravery and your willingness to share so that other women could benefit from your experience with what God says about divorce and marriage.
Kayla: Thank you. I appreciate you for having me.
Codependents Anonymous and Betrayal: What No One Tells You
Oct 28, 2025
Has your husband (or his therapist) weaponized codependency language to harm you? Here’s why codependents anonymous might not be right for you.
Is Codependents Anonymous the Answer for Betrayed Wives?
When a husband lies and cheats, many women are told: “You’re codependent. You should go to Codependents Anonymous.” But here’s the truth: men often pick up “codependency” language from sexual addiction therapists or marriage counselors, but it’s actually a form of victim blaming.
When a professional slaps the “codependent” label on a wife who’s been betrayed, it shifts responsibility for his lying or cheating onto her. Suddenly, she’s told her “neediness” or “lack of boundaries” is part of the problem.
How Your Husband May Use Codependents Anonymous Against You
Men who abuse and betray find blaming their wife’s codependency useful because if you’re “codependent,” then you share the blame. And you end up working on yourself while he keeps lying.
Women already blame themselves enough. Adding a “codependency” label just deepens the confusion, leaving victims focused on self-improvement instead of safety. That’s how the cycle of emotional abuse keeps going.
A Better Path Forward If you’ve been lied to or betrayed, you don’t need to be labeled. You need support, safety, and clarity. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily and offer women the safe space.
Transcript: My Husband Weaponized Codependency To Hide The Truth
Anne: I’m welcoming Melinda on today’s episode, who is like all of us are. She is the wife of a sex addict. The reason why I wanted her to come on today is that she commented on one of the articles on btr. org. Every single podcast that we do is transcribed and turned into an article and put on Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s website, btr.org.
We love people’s comments here. So if you haven’t joined the conversation, I welcome you to do that. Just comment below. And that’s how I met Melinda. So welcome, Melinda.
Melinda: Hi there. Thanks for having me.
Anne: So let’s start with your story, Melinda. How did your husband weaponize codependency language?
Melinda: My husband revealed he had been having an affair. And later revealed he had been seeing a sex masseuse and also abusing pornography. We entered into a process of trying to figure out what was going on. I understood it was not my fault, and that it was something that I felt we could overcome together.
He struggled a lot with all of it, and ultimately showed that he couldn’t meet me where I needed to be met, so that I can recover from the betrayal. But for a period of time, he entered 12 step, and he also actually, I should say, has been trained as a counselor.
Therapy & Codependency
Melinda: And when we entered therapy after the revelations of his betrayal, something kept coming up that was baffling to me. Our therapist reinforced it, that somehow there was something in our dynamic that I was responsible for. That’s why he did what he did and was acting out in the way he was.
I was trying to wrap my head around it because I’m a person who takes a lot of responsibility for our own behavior and actions. But I’m like, this doesn’t make any sense. I have also done a lot of work professionally, understanding trauma. So I was already under a trauma orientation, thinking I’m traumatized.
Why am I not getting understood here? Why does it keep coming back to something in my psychological makeup that’s creating this dynamic of his acting out behavior?
Anne: Essentially, it was trying to get you to take some form of accountability for the situation.
Melinda: Yes, and later I kind of understood where this is coming from when I started learning more about 12 step and codependency and what that means. How therapists and some in the 12 step field think about codependency.
I realized that a lot of that thinking was damaging to me. And neglected that his acting out was really, I’ve heard you use the term abuse, and I don’t know if I want to use that term, but it was definitely abusive. And a lot of his behavior, aside from the sexual acting out, was passive aggressive covert abuse,
Codependency as an Excuse
Anne: Emotional abuse in the form of lies and manipulation.
Melinda: Yeah, and a charming and playful facade. A lot of it was gaslighty as well. What I realized is that codependency was a great excuse for him to not take responsibility. We had problems prior to this throughout our relationship. The problems in my view was that he did not take accountability for behavior and responsibilities.
When the word codependency or the concept of codependency came into our relationship. It just became another tool to gaslight me and deflect. It was confusing for a while, because I want to take accountability. But he used it to not actually address the harm he caused.
Anne: There’s that, and then it goes further than that. Because he’s not just using it to avoid accountability for the harm he’s caused. He’s also using it to try and pin it on you. That’s why I call that abuse, because he actively attempts to harm you.
Melinda: Yes, yes
Anne: I mean, he doesn’t see it that way. He just thinks he’s trying to get away with it, but that is the end result. The end result is that he’s harming you even further by lying about your part.
Melinda: Yeah, I became a scapegoat for many, many things, and this just allowed even more scapegoating. You know, his decisions to cheat and all the other stuff were part of that scapegoating. I didn’t understand why this was happening. I was reading a lot of books on how to help your partner heal, and what does reconciliation look like? And I was bringing them to him, and he kept coming up with, why don’t you focus on yourself?
Focus on Self vs. Relationship
Melinda: And I’m thinking, I’m focusing on what I need to allow you back into my life. And anytime I said, you know, your defensiveness is hurting me. I don’t trust you, you’re not doing trustworthy things. He said, well, stop focusing on me and focus on yourself. It didn’t make sense until I started looking at what codependency tells people. It tells them to focus on themselves, not on others. Which sounds great, but in the hands of an abusive and exploitative person, it can go awry.
Anne: Well, and also it’s what they want you to do. They would like you to stop confronting them about their abusive behaviors. So because that’s what they want, they want you to “work on yourself,” which to them means leave me alone.
Melinda: And a lot of this is about thinking that you’re controlling. And my orientation, philosophical and spiritual frame. I have a Christian background. But I have more alignment with Buddhist mindfulness practices, as well as I’ve become more of a feminist. I think about feminist psychology much more.
I look at it in that frame, and I see a lot of women being held responsible for men’s behavior in the culture. And I think that was just a natural extension of the woman is making me do this. He even intimated that the affair partner was the aggressor in this situation. And that somehow she was this temptress.
Anne: What could I do? She kissed me. I couldn’t do anything about it, right?
Melinda: So I’m always aware of the gender dynamic, and our therapists played along with it.
Therapist’s Role in Abuse
Melinda: She was a new therapist. So that was like the double trauma of facing the reality of his infidelity and all that. And then a therapist reflecting it back on me in our supposedly safe setting.
Anne: It sounds like the therapist became an extension of the abuse. So let’s go back to where you’re being supportive of his recovery. Did you ever attend 12 step or COSA, which is co sex addicts? Did you ever attend either of those groups?
Melinda: I did. What struck me was that I felt in COSA, I had to align with codependency. One of the few times I went for instance, there was one woman agonizing over her partner. Who was holed up in the basement with the computer looking at pornography. He wouldn’t leave the house, and I hear her describe the story. Instead of saying how angry and indignant about how wrong that was. And how inappropriate that was, she went back to, well, I’m going to focus on myself, take care of myself.
Challenges in Confronting Abuse
Melinda: And I thought, are you allowing abuse in your home because it’s easier? Because you don’t know how to set the boundary or even draw a line? I just felt like she just caved in to feeling like she’s beholden to the situation and must allow it to continue.
Anne: I think that happens a lot. Women don’t know what to do, and confronting it seems so difficult. Also the consequences of confronting it seem so difficult. Like, I can’t do that. And so, I’ll focus on myself, which becomes a way for them to do something.
I feel a lot of compassion in this stage for victims, because it’s difficult to know what to do. Living with an abuser or divorcing an abuser. Both choices are not good. The best choice is if you could have him not be abusive anymore, which you have no control over. So it’s a way that victims try to empower themselves sometimes.
And I think that all of us go through a stage like that. We can hold a space of compassion for ourselves when we were in that stage and others in that stage, as they work through exactly what they need to feel safe, because it takes time.
Melinda: Yeah, absolutely, I certainly had to accept where he was in his path. And that it was not in alignment with where I wanted to be. So that definitely took time.
Empowerment and Boundaries
Melinda: Just really allowing myself to feel how terrible the codependency situation was. And that allowed me to move forward. Realizing that I wasn’t the kind of person who was gonna say, well I’m gonna focus on making myself happy. And let him have his life in our home in our relationship. That wasn’t gonna work for me. I could not abide a relationship with a person taking advantage of the situation to gain advantage of my compassion, my understanding. And really not supporting me and being a fair partner.
And so that’s why I bring up about gender, and are women being encouraged to look the other way and take responsibility for men’s bad behavior. Just the message that we have to even help take care of them. And I think that can easily become exploited.
Anne: Absolutely.
Therapy-Induced Trauma
Anne: With this concept of codependency in your experience with therapists, how did codependency cause therapy induced trauma? Let’s talk about that for a bit.
Melinda: Yeah, we had worked with mostly traditional therapists, marriage and family therapists.
Anne: Many sex addiction therapists claim to know about betrayal trauma, but they don’t actually practice it. They just do codependency and call it betrayal trauma. And that is dangerous. Sex addiction therapists don’t seem to understand it. The best people seem to be abuse experts from what we’ve experienced.
Melinda: A therapist we’d been with for a long time left me with a lot of trauma. I have a lot of hesitation to even find a new therapist.
Codependency is a framework that’s part of a lot of therapy training. It’s a dance, that you have a relationship dance, and you each have a part in all your stuff and his stuff. Our therapists fail to recognize, like you said, abuse and trauma.
So they fail to understand what abuse looks like, what covert abuse looks like, and what emotional abuse looks like. That abusers can come into an office and look like the calmest, sweetest, most cooperative people. While you’re the partner tearing her hair out and looking like a crazy woman in the office.
Then you look like the one who’s unhinged and angry. And our therapist did say, if it wasn’t for your dynamic, he wouldn’t have cheated. And I later realized, no, it has nothing to do with me. I had to realize that it was part of his retaliation for me, even having expectations of cooperation and accountability in our relationship.
Neutrality in Therapy
Melinda: And instead of being cooperative and accountable. He thought, well, she’s no good. She’s giving me a hard time. Women on Pornhub are better for me.
Anne: Right, which is what abusers want. They would like to manipulate and, I won’t say, beat down physically, but to the point where they get what they want. That’s the point of the abuse. And for a therapist not to notice it, it’s also interesting in the progressive communities, for example. And I tend to live in that world, in an effort to be politically correct. They end up throwing victims under the bus unknowingly.
So you’d think they would understand abuse, but I have found neither side understands it. conservatives and liberals, neither one of those groups truly understands abuse.
Melinda: Yes, I don’t think therapists actually understand trauma and how to be trauma informed around betrayal. Our therapist was trained to be even handed, you don’t take sides.
Anne: Neutrality only serves the perpetrator, because neutrality is there are two sides to the story, and both stories are of equal truth. And it serves the perpetrator, because if they can say, I did this, but she did this. We have this toxic dance. It’s a toxic relationship, rather than saying, I’m the abuser. Some go as far as to say, I didn’t do anything wrong, and she’s the abuser. So many victims are accused of abuse themselves, which is also super scary.
Melinda: Yes.
Victim Blaming in Therapy
Melinda: And in fact, in our therapy sessions and even my conversations with my spouse, I said, you know, he betrayed me. I said this to our therapist. He betrayed me. And she said, well, I think you’ve both betrayed each other. And I thought, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I did not. And I’ve only had loyalty and allegiance to our marriage and family life together. So that was just red meat for him to feed his victimhood,
Anne: I’m guessing the abuse got worse.
Melinda: It just continued the pattern of blaming me, being covertly abusive, gaslighting and love bombing. Then he’d wonder why I withdrew. And blowing up at me for withdrawal. And just kept continuing. As I saw this pattern over and over again, I’m holding my boundary. I’m saying clearly what I need, what I expect. He couldn’t get past that in my boundary. He tried love bombing. I love you, I love you, I love you.
He tried all kinds of things. He wanted me to let go of what I knew in my heart was needed for us to have a healthy relationship. For me to let go of expectations of him and by declaring his undying love and grandiose gestures, and I wasn’t going to accept it. I knew in my heart that I needed something authentic.
Love Bombing & Manipulation
Anne: Like one woman, she said, okay, I’m going to file for divorce. She filed, he came back and said, I’ll do anything. I’ll do anything. And she said, okay, these are the things you need to do. And he didn’t do those things, but he would say the right things, right? So you can clearly see when their actions are not matching their words. That’s manipulation, grooming, love bombing and not recovery.
Melinda: And of course, when I said here love bombing, he said, How do you judge me? You’re judging me. And so I thought, I’m not going to get anywhere, because I’m trying to call out and name the things that are not right in this situation. That are not working with the desire to see things work, not to punish.
And that was another accusation that I constantly faced. That I was trying to punish, control and avoid my own problems by naming what was happening.
Anne: Well, the weird thing is that one of your own problems is that you were being abused. So you clearly stated one of your own problems.
Melinda: Women use their voice. and speak up. A lot of our rage and anger in these situations is that we’re tired of being exploited, abused or taken advantage of. We’re written off, we’re told we’re crazy or want to control everything. I think we have to recognize male entitlement in many situations.
Empowerment Through Boundaries
Melinda: I think that gets missed when we’re just thinking about, well, women are punishing because she can’t look at her own stuff. Or she’s controlling the situations because of her own trauma. And I think so many women are pretty self-reflective and pretty thoughtful. Women have been working on their own sort of self healing for many, many years.
Let’s celebrate that and acknowledge that women have evolved a lot of good self care, and empowerment. Abusive men need to have a lot more work around how to come along with us. I do think the codependency models kind of holding women responsible for their partner’s alcoholism, that’s just from another time.
And I think. women are doing their own healing. They’ve been doing it for a long time. I think we need to work on abusive men and their entitlement.
Anne: I love feminist theory. I’m a happy, unabashed and unapologetic feminist. And I think radical feminism is the only way to beat this. By saying my opinions are just as important as yours. What I want in a marriage is just as important, and if you want someone who will be quiet and look the other way. This marriage will not work for me. And I, as a woman, have the right to say that, and I have the right to set boundaries around it. It’s okay with me if that’s not what you want.
Mirroring with lies
Anne: And if it’s not, then have a nice life. So when I first married. I am opposed, and I know that many listeners aren’t. So I do not want to offend anyone right now. I oppose guns and motorcycles. When I dated my ex-husband, I said to him, if you like guns and motorcycles, that is super cool for you, right? Like, I am so happy for you. That’s great. I will not date you. So you just do your thing, shine on, and live your life.
And he told me, I don’t ride motorcycles. And I don’t like guns. I’m not a gun person. And I was like, cool. Well, I found out later that was a complete lie and manipulation. So I tried to be upfront, I was very obvious about it, what I wanted. And he thought he could gaslight me. Rather than saying, oh, you know what? I love guns and motorcycles. We’re probably not a good fit. Do you know what I mean?
So same thing with a pornography. I don’t want someone who will cheat and look at pornography, lie and manipulate me. So if that’s who you are, then shine on. You live your life just far away from me. And I think women are becoming empowered to the point where they can start saying that. The hard thing is when the man looks like that person, when he manipulates you.
Dating After Abuse
Anne: And now I’m not dating, but if I go on a date I would actually probably keep my opinions to myself, because I don’t want him to know what I think, I just want to know what he thinks.
So I’d maybe say, How do you feel about guns? Without telling him what I thought, so that I could hear what he thought, just without knowing what I thought. Does that make sense? So that I can’t be manipulated. So I think my dating strategy will be much more cautious and take it a lot slower, and also not put everything out there while I get to know the person.
Because I don’t want them to use it against me or to use it to manipulate me. I’m afraid someone will groom me again. Let’s put it that way.
Melinda: Yeah, I think men in this world have to understand what we’ve been through and why we may come off as guarded or protective, or suspicious. Despite our best intentions to be trusting and open hearted, there’s a lot that some of us have been through that makes that very difficult.
Anne: Well, and I think we’ve learned to look for what a trustworthy person looks like. It takes time. You cannot determine that from a five minute conversation or a 10 minute conversation. You can’t determine it from a one two hour date. It takes time, years and experience to figure out whether someone is trustworthy. So taking our time is important.
Not being manipulated anymore
Anne: And had we done that before, we might not have even hit the nail on the head. Because we might not have known what we were looking for, but we know better now, which is awesome.
Melinda: That’s a great point. I think that’s where I’ve arrived to know clearly what I’m about. And when I see something disconnected, or when I meet someone disconnected from that, it’s incompatible. I can see it more clearly, and that helps, I think. That you just know yourself better and recognize somebody else that might be unhealthy for you. To your point of having the boundaries and being willing to say, you know, this isn’t for me.
This relationship isn’t for me, because, you know, you’re doing you, and it’s not working for me. That I know not all women can do that. I know so many women trapped in these situations, for whatever reason. And leaving is, may feel worse than staying if they held their boundary. But for me, I found that as I struggled, we have two children. So leaving took a while, but eventually I found the logistical possibilities to make it happen, to have him leave.
That’s when things really changed. He couldn’t hide and manipulate me anymore because he wasn’t around. I could stand more firmly, and then he had to reckon with himself. And so, he reckons with himself now. I’m still not sure if that’ll bring us back together.
Anne: Well, thank you so much Melinda for coming on today’s podcast. I appreciate you sharing your story, and I loved the word weaponizing. So I want everybody to consider in what ways certain therapy language hurts abuse victims.
Is Your Husband Future Faking? Here’s How To Tell
Oct 21, 2025
Husband future faking is when a husband uses promises about the future (trips, counseling, moving, budgets, a baby, “I’ll change”) to control what you do today, delaying consequences, buying time, and keeping access, without producing consistent, verifiable change.
Future faking = promises now, no follow-through later.
It spikes after discovery (you catch lies, porn, affairs, money issues).
Real change is quiet, boring, measurable for months, not speeches.
Protect your safety and watch behavior.
10 Signs Your Husband Is Future Faking
Vague timelines: “Soon,” “after things calm down,” no date ever sticks.
You do the labor: You plan/pay while he “tries.” Brief performance, then slide.
Story keeps shifting: New reasons each week why the plan moved.
No transparency: Secret devices, hidden accounts, locked phone habits.
Grand gestures after discovery: Big promise wave right after you find evidence.
Love-bomb sandwich: Promise → short effort → quiet backslide → new promise.
Pressure to trust, not verify: You’re “negative” if you ask for proof.
Budget “tomorrow,” spending “today”: Money talks don’t match transactions.
Therapy as theater: He “goes to therapy,” but honesty and access never change.
Your gut stays tense: Your body doesn’t feel safer despite the speeches.
Future Faking vs. Real Change (side-by-side)
Future Faking (Control)
Real Change (Safety)
Big speeches, airy timelines
He does the thing.
You carry logistics & cost
He does it and pays for it.
Secret phones/finances
Full access (devices, locations, budget)
Mood swings around scrutiny
The thing he said would be done is done.
Short “streaks,” then relapse
Months of consistency, verified
To see if it’s real, you don’t need to chase updates. The thing he spoke about will come to fruition without you checking up on it.
Why Husbands Future Fake
Delay consequences: Pause separation, legal steps, or financial boundaries.
In your mind, move to thinking about observable checkpoints (e.g., “By [date], I’ll check to see if I have access to the bank account.”)
(Notice: no threats, no explanations. You protect your peace and watch behavior.)
Examples of Husband Future Faking
“We’ll start counseling next month.”
“I’ll quit porn; you have to trust me.”
“I’ll fix the money stuff.”
FAQs About Husband Future Faking
Is husband future faking a form of emotional abuse? Yes. It manipulates your decisions today with promises that rarely materialize, keeping you in harm’s way emotionally.
How long should I wait for “real change”? Look for months of quiet, consistent, verifiable behavior, without you bringing it up again.
Should I confront him about future faking? Debate often feeds the cycle. Document, set boundaries, and observe from a safe distance.
Next steps (support that centers your safety)
Living Free Workshop: step-by-step effective boundaries (thought, action, communication) with practical examples.
Transcript: Is Your Husband Future Faking? Here’s How To Tell
Anne: So, I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Mackenzie. Welcome.
Mackenzie: So I happened to be at a conference, and there was a wonderful speaker there, and she introduced him. She talked a little bit about his story and sort of a larger context. And she’s a wonderful speaker and writer. She really sold him. So when I met him in person a month later. I had such a favorable impression.
Anne: This happens with people who maybe get set up or people who attend the same congregation or workplace. Where his reputation sort of precedes him. It’s coming from other people, there’s kind of an automatic trust, because other people have vouched for him ahead of you meeting him.
Mackenzie: Absolutely, yeah, when you have multiple solid professionals, people in the public eye. Who have these favorable relationships. There was a counselor, and they were a strong supporter, even financially with some of his work. So there was just a legitimacy.
Early Red Flags of Husband Future Faking
Mackenzie: Is my husband a jerk? And now with the benefit of hindsight, and more than a decade later, I can see that he carefully crafted this image. At least at the time I met him, he had done a pretty good job of it. He had obtained some prestigious fellowships. You know, you’re like, how did I not see it? But the truth is, how did they not see it? I was new in that space with important people surrounding him, and he really exploited that.
I felt a little awestruck that he and I would have a conversation. Our relationship developed because he reached out and asked me to be part of these different groups. I think he added me on social media, and sent me a message. He started to ask me to do things, and I think that’s really important, because it was a low time in my life. And feeling like I could make a difference for a cause greater than myself was appealing.
I was at the tail end of being part of a religious group, and I was looking for a place to belong. You hear a story of suffering, pain, and injustice. Regardless of the origin of the story, there’s a tenancy toward wanting to help. He wanted to use my speaking and writing skills for his organization. Kind of an informal, volunteer sort of thing. We would have different touch points, whether it was like a meeting, action or activity. He was definitely orchestrating the crossing of paths.
How Husband Future Faking Lures You In (Moving In, Promises, and Red Flags)
Mackenzie: I was taking the LSAT. I had ambitions of being a lawyer. I think he felt that between my skills with writing, speaking, and then studying the law, I would be really helpful. Whether it was can you write this grant proposal for me? When you’re a good writer, it’s apparently an in demand skill that not great people want to access for themselves.
It was a perfect storm. I had no idea what I was getting involved with, none. Never in my wildest dreams did I believe that a person who presented like this could use other people around them to cover up. I was really, really conflicted when he showed interest.
Anne: Talk more about the conflict you experienced.
Mackenzie: He claimed he and his ex spouse had attorneys working on their case. We are separated, it’s nearly done. I was so naive. He began to ask me, do you want to live with me in this fancy high rise apartment downtown? He didn’t live there, and he never ended up living there. Because he was future faking.
Anne: Also, there’s probably some manipulation in terms of flattery. This person everybody else says is amazing, thinks I’m worth his attention. And this is how good they are at manipulation.
Mackenzie: Yeah, it’s true. I wasn’t in need of anything from him. But I was lonely. I moved in with him. I had never had intercourse before. And I had my own career.
Around the time I was like, it’s just not working. It’s just toxic. Too much conflict. I found out I was expecting my child. And I was raised in an environment where a two parent family is everything.
Discovering the Truth: When Husband Future Faking Turns Into Betrayal
Makenzie: I was trying my hardest to make that work for what I believed was the right thing for my child. I even remember like a physical change in myself, the night I found out I was expecting. It was like I couldn’t fully stand up for myself anymore with him. I had to change myself so that he would respond more favorably. So that the environment for our child and me would be safer.
I know now that’s not good. At the time, I thought I would work hard to help better our lives. When I knew something was really, really wrong, though. In the middle of my pregnancy, he was asleep and it was late. He locked his phone down. I’ve never met another person who locked down their devices to this degree. Who took them everywhere, bathroom, anywhere.
I somehow got in his phone, and I found a conversation with a stranger, aggressively soliciting for it. And I was like in shock. I mean, I’m pregnant, and I’m terrified. I’m like, I need to get tested for STDs. You know, a range of thoughts. I was like shaking, and then I went and woke him up and confronted him. Probably the dumbest thing I could have done. And he just kind of sat there for a long time, and then he told me a story.
He was trying to entrap the police, by reverse stinging their stings. The next day I had work, and after work I stayed somewhere else. I was like, I need to think. And then within a few days, I joined affair therapy groups and stuff.
After the Promises: Therapy, Financial Abuse, and Husband Future Faking
Mackenzie: Abuse wasn’t part of the conversation. It was a lot of just focusing on what you can do for yourself in your own situation. That’s the irony, I’m stuck in this dude’s mess. In the distraction of therapy groups, . And, I end up like, you know, moving back with him.
Anne: You don’t know what you don’t know.
Mackenzie: No, you don’t! Exactly! And when you’re raised in that church environment, you’re taught to trust people. I’m not looking for something I don’t know exists.
Anne: Yeah, a church setting, they’re not like, this is wickedness.
Mackenzie: Right.
Anne: Avoid these people in your own home. They’re more like, there’s these bad people outside that are like, far away from us.
Mackenzie: Right, the others.
Anne: Yeah, exactly, rather than your own husband, or partner.
Mackenzie: Yeah.
Anne: The person close to you, is he a jerk or an evil person?
Mackenzie: Exactly, he’s the person you’re supposed to trust and rely on. So at the end of the year that our child was born. My partner had a car accident and sustained a traumatic brain injury. This accident changed everything we were doing. And any negative that was going on before was amplified. And then there were quite a few new issues.
He had extensive amounts of therapies: Neuropsychologists, physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, cognitive therapy. This became part of our life for several years, both in a hospital, in an outpatient setting, and then even in our home. We had therapists coming through the home. So through this, we did couples counseling. We actually got referred to what was supposedly one of the top couples counselors in this whole health system.
Why Couples Counseling Often Misses Husband Future Faking and Covert Abuse
Mackenzie: I like cleared an entire day of work. I was no longer going to work on Wednesdays, because we were going to go to couples counseling. And it was a huge deal. I had to like find childcare and all this stuff. Our case completely perplexed them. And after a few months, he told me he was “too sick” to go to counseling. And I put too sick in quote marks because he was not too sick to go to the Apple store.
Yes, after his accident, he never went back to work. Not only did he not financially contribute in any meaningful way. He began to drain our finances to an extreme amount using various Apps and games. I mean, like hundreds and thousands of dollars were going missing. It was insane. Was it something like gambling? I’ll never truly know everything. He even used cryptocurrency.
Then a couple of years later, just before we split, we did couples therapy again. I was so ambivalent by that point. I remember the therapist repeating seems like you don’t know you could go either way. And I was so numbed out by that point because of the amount of discoveries I’d found. Just outrageous behavior, betrayals, and frightening stuff.
I tried to talk about a lot of it in counseling. But, in the counseling sphere, I don’t think abuse was brought up, and I had several counselors.
The Final Straw: When Husband Future Faking Escalates to Criminal or Dangerous Behavior
Mackenzie: The most disturbing discovery I made was that he had conversations with teenagers on Snapchat, in texts. And I’m finding this out piecemeal, by having a computer left up. He was very, very shrewd and secretive, extremely secretive. I found he was sending pictures of our child, using our child as part of grooming someone else. I was outraged. And that was the point, enough things had happened. I decided I am not going to confront him about this.
Mackenzie: Absolutely, so it took me a little over a year. I did some big career moves, I prepared in secret. I wanted to sustain myself and my child. We weren’t married, but in our state, there is this common law factor. Due to so much interaction with the medical system. He had encouraged me to begin to refer to him as my husband. It was calculated.
The last couple’s counselor, the last time I talked with her, I called her and I was so apologetic. I’m like, I’m so sorry. I know I did not cancel with 24 hours notice, we’re not going to be able to have our couples counseling session today because I’m trying to see if there’s a tracker on my car.
Anne: Yeah, that is crazy that you went to multiple therapists and none of them identified it as abuse.
Mackenzie: I know, I could go on and on about post separation abuse and legal problems. I learned later, thanks to the IRS, about actual criminal activity. He was caught red handed through Snapchat and Instagram. Yeah, he was sentenced to decades in prison.
Breaking Free from Husband Future Faking: Legal Protection and Safety Planning
Mackenzie: I got a protective order when I left. I spent beyond my life savings on legal fees to protect myself and my child. Because I realized, this person was so destructive. I mean, I haven’t even mentioned there’s assault. There’s so many things, but this person was just hell bent on destruction and doing what they wanted to do. And I needed to protect myself and my child.
That’s why I filed for divorce from someone I wasn’t married to, because I wanted a legal end to any connection with this person. Because they’re terrifying, like, absolutely terrifying. Like, when I left, he stalked me, actually showed up at my workplace looking for me. And he’s still a victim. I hadn’t heard from him in a long time, but a few months ago, he sent a letter to my dad’s house. He was pretty much an atheist when we were together, but now it looks like he’s found God.
Anne: Let’s just add spiritual abuse to it.
Mackenzie:Yeah, never in my wildest dreams would I expect someone who’s publicly advocating for others and putting themselves in the super public role. Would actually commit behind the scenes crimes with other people’s children. This goes way beyond just being a jerk. When you put it all together, and I spent years in a caregiving role for this person. I funded their life. Whatever money he was getting. He did not put in the family pot, but whatever I earned, he needed access to it.
Anne: Wow, did the advocates who propped him up and supported him become aware that he was a criminal and in prison?
Life After Husband Future Faking: Rebuilding Trust and Recognizing Manipulation
Mackenzie: Yes, most of those people, to my knowledge, do not support him now. He borrowed quite a sum of money to bail himself out of jail. And that money didn’t go back to that person. I think it shows you the mind of someone like this, someone with an antisocial personality. The mind of someone who is rational, but with no conscience. There is no boundary, they will not limit themselves to any sort of moral behavior.
Periodically, he’d tell me I was his moral compass. And I didn’t really understand what he meant by that. But I think I get it a little more now. He had no real moral direction.
Anne: To use a good cause as a shield for your own bad behavior is really alarming.
Mackenzie: It is, it makes me suspicious of people who are extremely vocal, especially men. It makes me wonder, because I’ve seen the underside of that. I trust a lot less than I did before.
Anne: Umhmm, yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us. Thank you so much. You’ve been through so much, and I’m happy to hear that you are safe.
Mackenzie: Thank you so much for having me on here. I really appreciate it.
What Is Covert Emotional Abuse? – Nadira’s Story
Oct 14, 2025
Covert emotional abuse is difficult to identify. If you’re wondering if you’re husband is using covert emotional abuse, here’s what you need to know.
Anne Blythe, M.Ed. Host of The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, talks to Nadira, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community about her husband’s covert emotional abuse.
6 Examples of Covert Emotional Abuse
Covert Emotional Abuse Is A Lack Of Consideration
Neglect Is Covert Emotional Abuse
Secret Pornography Use Is Covert Emotional Abuse
Lying Is Covert Emotional Abuse
Covert Emotional Abuse Looks Nice and Kind
If It’s Covert Emotional Abuse, There Will Be No Resolution
Covert Emotional Abuse Is Dangerous Because It’s Invisible
Covert abusers are often charming, confident, and seem to speak and act in a gentle and polite manner. It can be terrifying for victims to suddenly realize that the inconsistent cruelty and confusion they experience is abuse.
Men who covertly abuse women don’t always hit, yell, break things, or lash out. Instead, the abuse is more subtle and hard to pin down. This makes covert abusers appear “normal” and makes victims feel crazy, overly-sensitive, and nit-picky. The reality, of course, is that victims are often under reacting to the gaslighting, manipulation, and crazy-making they are experiencing.
Covert Abusers Lie – And Put Victims In Serious Danger
Because abusive men usually lie about their sexual behaviors, including exploitative materials use and affairs. Women are in serious danger of STD infection. When men lie about their behavior, or withhold information, they commit coercion.
Coercion is an umbrella term for partner rape and sexual abuse. Women are victims of coercion if they don’t have the information they need to give informed consent before contact.
When women have contact without knowing the truth about their partner’s use, past and/or current partner(s), STDs, compulsive masturbation, or other behaviors, they become at-risk for STDs and STIs, exploitation, and the intense trauma that accompanies betrayal.
Covert Abusers Normalize Abuse By Harming Victims Quietly
One of the most dangerous aspects of covert abuse is the way it is gradually intensified and normalized by abusers.
Covert abusers are master-manipulators and often have more self-control than physical batterers. Because of this, they can slowly groom victims into accepting abuse as normal – and even feel grateful during the brief periods when their partner is not inflicting psychological damage.
Covert Abusers Hide Behind The “Sex Addict” Label
Because covert abusers are often exploitative materials users. Men will hide behind the label of “sex addict”, reaping the privileges of being an “addict” while continuing to harm and cast blame on partners.
While some individuals may truly suffer from addiction to sex and pornography (yes, it is addictive), all men who use pornography are abusers.
When therapists, 12-step groups, clergy, and others encourage families to view the abusive man as addicted, they minimize the danger of the abuse and enable the abuser. Abusers can change, but it’s probably not through CSAT therapists.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know how maddening, terrifying, and heartbreaking it can be to suffer at the hands of a covert abuser. The confusion and distortion of reality is enough to drain energy, hope, and joy from anyone’s life.
But healing is possible: with self-care, safety, and support. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets daily in multiple time zones to offer victims a safe place to process trauma, share their stories, ask questions, and connect with other victims who get it. Join today and begin your journey to healing.
Transcript: What Is Covert Emotional Abuse?
Anne: Before we get to this week’s guest. We have a lot of women who listen to the podcast, who are not of any faith or aren’t Christians. I want to welcome everyone and thank everyone for listening. When women share on the podcast, I always want them to share from their own personal faith or paradigm. That means I frequently share from my own, and this podcast is not just for members of my church, but for everybody.
We have a member of our community on today’s episode, who comes from a Muslim background, although she converted to Christianity. We’re going to call her Nadira. Nadira and I will be talking about covert emotional abuse. And as she shares her story, I’m going to stop and point out six examples of covert emotional abuse. Welcome Nadira.
Nadira: Hi Anne. I have to say that’s something I appreciate about your podcast, because I know you’re a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so when I first started listening, I thought maybe it was just for people that belong to that faith. But as I listened to the podcast, I was encouraged that this is for all women from all types of faith backgrounds.
But the truth is, we share this thing in common, in that we’ve all been abused. It’s been comforting for me to hear from all types of women with all types of beliefs.
Nadira’s Early Relationship and Red Flags
Anne: Oh, thank you so much for saying that. Yeah, that’s important to me that everyone feels welcome here. Everyone has different epiphanies based on their experience. I want women to share those. So the other women can hear them and realize they’re not alone. And that we’re all so similar.
Thanks for saying that. I appreciate it. Let’s talk about your story. Did you recognize abusive behaviors in the beginning?
Nadira: What I will say is yes and no. No, I didn’t have a category or the right verbiage for it. But what I knew was something was terribly wrong from the beginning. I’m Middle Eastern.
My dad is from the Middle East, and I was raised Muslim, but came to faith as a Christian when I was 16. I took that decision seriously and devoted my life to my faith. It was life changing for me. And when I met my ex-husband, he was on full time staff with a Christian organization.
He was basically a missionary. We actually took Bible classes together when I met him. He checked all the boxes. He is a master manipulator, like men I’ve heard about on this podcast. And so sadly, I kept thinking, well if I would change, or maybe I’m being ridiculous. I kept questioning myself, but innately, I knew something was terribly wrong.
Honeymoon Incident: First Example of Abuse
Nadira: On our honeymoon, my ex-husband actually decided to play volleyball in a two on two tournament for two days in a row with a totally hot woman in her bikini and flirt with her the whole time. Now, I asked him about it. I’m a person who’s forthright in what I feel, and I told him I felt hurt. I said I didn’t want him to do it, and the next day he did it again.
Anne: Oh wow, wow, on your honeymoon. I’m so sorry. So that’s our first example of covert emotional abuse. It was his absolute lack of consideration for you on your honeymoon. Like he was more into this other person than his own wife on her honeymoon. I am so sorry. I mean, how did the rest of the honeymoon go?
Nadira: I always felt like I was overly jealous in the conversations with him. I was insane. And so right from the get go, there was a precedent set that he could do whatever he wanted and flip it all around. And I would feel like what is wrong with me?
That continued, and so in my gut, I always knew there was something terribly wrong. But my ex-husband, like so many people I’ve heard about on this podcast, which really helped me not feel alone. He’s well liked, by the way. And he’s always been the pastor’s best friend. He’s a successful businessman. He was actually a star athlete.
Emotional Neglect: Second Example of covert emotional Abuse
Nadira: He had this Opie Taylor image, that he was just this aw shucks, unassuming guy, and everyone loved and trusted him. And so I always felt like, what’s wrong with me? And he would say that to me, like, what’s wrong with you? Everybody else loves me. But I was extremely neglected in our home.
I was a newlywed, I just moved across the country. And I felt very alone. We lived in a house built in 1948, so it was very small. He would disappear into the office for hours, and he would work long hours outside the home. And in his free time, he was either in the office. Or he watched TV and I was so lonely. I was seven months pregnant.
And I thought I’m going to leave and see if he even notices. So, I left the house, seven months pregnant, in an unsafe area, by the way. And two and a half hours later, he calls me and says, What are you doing? Where are you at? It took two and a half hours for him to even notice that I had left our little 1, 200 square foot house. So, the neglect was extreme.
Anne: That’s our second example of covert emotional abuse, emotional neglect. Like he didn’t even notice that you were missing. I can imagine in that situation you would feel so alone. I went through that too. Because right after I married, I moved to be with my ex, and I felt so alone too. And he would just take off and not tell me where he was going. What else did you notice early on? Other than the emotional neglect?
Discovering exploitative material: Third Example of Abuse
Nadira: Pretty early on, one week before our oldest child’s birth. I had gone downstairs earlier than normal and caught my ex-husband looking at it.
Anne: And there is example number three. So the third example of covert emotional abuse is secretly using. It’s covert because you can’t see it because he’s hiding it from you.
Nadira: Prior to marriage, I had actually asked him, which is abnormal at the time. But I had asked him about it, because I heard of a story where pornography had invaded a marriage. And so I asked him about his experience with it. And of course, he lied to me and said he didn’t have a problem or any issues with it.
I went through all the normal feelings of what’s wrong with me. Why am I not enough? Does he love me? All those questions that are normal. So when I caught him one week before the birth of our first child. At that point, I knew, okay, there is something much deeper going on here. That’s not about me.
Lying and Deception: Fourth Example of Abuse
Anne: Lying is example number four. Lying is covert emotional abuse. You’re resisting the entire time. Knowing that something was wrong, and in your efforts to resist, where else did you turn for help?
Nadira: Yeah, I tried a lot of things. I’m just a proactive person, especially in relationships. From the beginning, I was reaching out for marriage counseling, pastoral counseling, to do marriage workshops.
He worked for a well known Christian organization, and they had resources for us. So we were utilizing all those resources. In all that, he could answer and look like a shining great guy. But no one was in our home to see the neglect. For other listeners who can relate to this, I wanted to share this.
So, my ex-husband was not a screamer or yeller. He did push me once or twice, which is abuse. That was in a really extreme moment, and it was not the norm. He did everything with a smile on his face. So he was always cool, calm, collected, and always smiling. So all the neglect, all the flirting with other women in front of me. And the inappropriate stuff he’s done with our children has all been done with a smile on his face. It was not this ogre like persona.
The Smiling Abuser: Fifth Example of covert emotional Abuse
Anne: Let’s pause here for just a second to point out the fifth example of covert emotional abuse. It doesn’t look bad, it looks nice and kind, he looks like a responsible, upstanding person. And that’s why it’s covert, because you cannot see it. Before we get to the inappropriate things he did with your kids. Can we return to marriage counseling? When you did pastoral counseling, did anyone identify the abuse or him as an abuser?
Nadira: Never, not one time. So to give you a little history, I caught him. Well, then I caught him again. And then he seemed to do well for years. And then the last time I caught him, it had escalated for years. There was a lot I didn’t know, he had been having affairs. He had engaged with prostitutes. Also, he had brought prostitutes into our home on several occasions. He had done all these horrific things to our family. And at that point even, I was told it was addiction.
So then we went the addiction route for years. Even when he went to treatment, which he did for addiction. Which I think was a huge waste of $50,000, because it upped his pathology and made him more dangerous. And then I knew he was going back to “addiction,” even before he got caught again. But the truth was that I didn’t want to be in relationship with a manipulator, a liar, a cheater, a psychologically abusive person.
Addiction Therapy and Its Failures: Sixth Example of Abuse
Nadira: So I filed for divorce.
Anne: Yeah, I hear that all the time. Time and time again, women tell me their story about how to deal with their addict husband and he went to addiction therapy or abuse cessation therapy. It was not only a waste of time and money, but he actually got worse. So it was like paying $50,000 to make him worse. So that is the sixth example of covert emotional abuse, there’s no resolution.
They give you the impression that they’re going to get help, But then they use that proximity to you and their promise to you that they’re going to change as a way to continue to exploit you.
Nadira: It was traumatizing, because here I had all this hope for help. And it ended up being more dangerous for our family in the long run. And yet, I believe the people at treatment had good intentions. I think it may work for someone, I don’t know. But in our case, it really upped his pathology, and he’s that much more dangerous.
Anne: For women wondering if their husband is addicted to this, when do you start to recognize it’s abuse?
Recognizing Abuse Through the Podcast
Nadira: Well, I’ll be honest, Anne, it’s been listening to your podcast. My therapist recommended your podcast to me. I’ve only been listening to your podcast for six months. So it’s only been the last six months, and it’s been a complete paradigm shift for me. And it’s actually totally changed my life.
This is why: when it was sex addiction, there is this idea that he’s a sick person and needs empathy. It’s just a sick person who has like cancer, for example. And so that’s how we treated it as a family. In the meantime, he’s still doing horrific things to the children. And so it was listening to every one of these podcasts. It really made my whole paradigm shift and go, you know what? It’s not addiction. It’s just an extremely abusive, I believe sociopath is what I believe he is.
He lacks empathy, which allows him to do horrific things to his family and children. Like introduce his children to prostitutes with a smile on his face. On a regular basis, he would become aroused around the children when playing with them. And not when they physically touched each other. What I mean is, like, they weren’t body on body. He would just become aroused.
And that was something I had addressed before he ever got caught in full blown addiction with prostitutes. I had been talking to our pastor, to our counselors, and everyone was like, that’s weird. But you know, they would just tell him, like, get away from the children. But that had been going on for years.
Covert emotional Abuse Impacts on Children
Nadira: Since our two oldest children are four years old and two years old, he would be aroused playing with the children. I never caught child abuse material, but I’d only caught him using exploitative material twice. And they were like four years apart. We had covenant eyes and all that, but he is a master manipulator. He lived a whole double life. I will tell you, everyone who found out our story in our friend group was like, he’s the last person I ever expected. He was always the pastor’s best friend.
Anne: That’s why they’re so dangerous. When I talk to people about how use is abusive. If you catch them, you don’t know what else is going on. They’re not going to tell you.
Nadira: They only admit what they get caught with. Even if it’s “just pornography,” unless you’ve agreed on that in your relationship. That is abuse. That’s lying and coercion. That’s manipulating. I want to read you this quick, from the Domestic Violence Victims Handbook. I picked it up at Children’s Services. So it describes abuse, right? And under the different headings, there’s like coercion, making the victim feel guilty, pushing the victim into decisions, sulking, manipulating children and other family members.
Always insisting on being right, making impossible rules and punishing the victim for breaking them. Talks about emotional withdrawal, economic control. A lot of these behaviors described in this are exactly what I went through and what our children went through and still go through. And yet, he’s not a physically abusive person. He does it all with a smile.
He spent all our money
Nadira: I was told, and I know I’m not alone in this. That if I would be more loving and kinder, and there’s a passage in 1 Peter 3 that talks about submitting without a word, That he would be a more loving husband.
The purpose of abuse is to silence your victim. It silenced me. I literally felt like I was dying inside, and he went off the rails. When he got caught, like really caught, we were broke because he had spent all our money on women. So me trying to do whatever it takes to save my marriage hurt me in the long run. Because literally at the end of the day, we were broke. He had destroyed everything. He had abused our children.
If we’re friends and you come to me and say, I’m being abused. I want to help you get help and get to a safe place. But if you come to me and say, you know,there’s a whole different approach. And your safety is not the main concern, which is crazy to me. The main concern is him. Which is just enabling him to, like in our case, up his pathology and become more dangerous.
So your podcast has made a huge difference to me. It’s changed everything, because instead of treating it like addiction and all the ways I was taught. Because I went to Al Anon for years and stuff like that. I am treating it like, no, we are victims, he’s an abuser, and we need to be safe.
The Need for Safety & Protection
Nadira: And we are currently in court over custody issues. He’s lost complete custody of our oldest. We’re trying to free the younger children from the abuse. It’s a totally different perspective, because I don’t treat it like an addiction, and he just needs help. I actually don’t believe there’s help for him. I believe he’s a sociopath and that literally we just need to get safe to a safe place.
Anne: Even if there was some kind of help for him. The point is still the same. If the person isn’t safe, it doesn’t matter if they can become safe or not. They’re not currently safe, period. We need to protect ourselves. With your ex, I tend to agree with you. He’s never going to change, but if he could, hypothetically, it would not matter.
We still need to protect ourselves, because he’s not safe. That is the most fundamental thing that most people don’t understand. They think if somebody can become safe, we don’t need to protect ourselves. And instead, we need to be patient, kind, and loving. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. It doesn’t matter if they can change or not. That’s not the issue. The issue is I need to protect myself now because they’re not safe now, period.
Anne: In your case, you filed for divorce to protect yourself. And I’m so sorry it’s still a struggle to keep your children safe. That is such a common problem.
Faith and Misguided Counsel for covert emotional abuse
Anne: After what you’ve been through. Knowing what you know now, what insights could you share with women in your same situation?
Nadira: My faith had a lot to do, I believe, with a lot of the decisions I made. And God does not value marriage over my relationship with God. And that seems like a very obvious point. But I kept feeling like the counsel I received from pastors and lay people was that I needed to do whatever it takes, including extreme abuse, to stay married and keep a family together.
And yet, my children endured more abuse because I was trying to please God in that way. And marriage in many ways in some churches or communities of faith is held above a woman and children’s safety, emotional and mental well-being. Because, you know, that kind of abuse long term, I got to really desperate places.
I got to places where I didn’t want to live anymore. It took me to those places. I believe everything happens for a reason. But I can’t imagine what my life would have been like if I would have gotten out of that abuse a long time ago.
The hard thing though is that Sodom and Gomorrah looked evil, and so did the Egyptians, right? But in our case, he looked, like literally, the best guy ever.
The Broader Impact of exploitative Material
Nadira: The thing that’s discounted or not talked about a ton, and you do a good job of talking about it here. Is, yeah, okay, let’s say he is just looking at it behind your back, lying to you and coercing and manipulating you. Well, what are the effects of that on the family? It doesn’t happen in a black hole by itself. It’s not an isolated event. It affects how he treats you and the children. It affects how he sees you and the children.
And It affects so many areas of your life, your time, your money, it’s not an isolated thing. It affects everyone. My ex-husband getting aroused around our children. And he would grab our boy’s testicles. I told counselors, and guess what? There’s not been one report about it. No one’s done anything about it. He’s told them because when he “was in recovery,” all that was out in the open. I mean, we probably told ten therapists. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Milton Magnus model. We did that too.
Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. We’ve heard horror stories here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery from women talking about addiction therapists. But we’ve also heard horror stories from abuse recovery therapists as well.
Nadira: Well, one of the reasons you need to get safe right now, I’ve learned from you, is that when he is abusive, there’s so much that you don’t even realize is covert emotional abuse. Because it’s all foggy. In my opinion, you need separation so you can begin to see more clearly.
Addiction treatment promises & Hopes
Nadira: Like with children who have been abused, let’s say it is a father, uncle or grandfather, like a relative. That maybe the family wants them to see eventually again. They’ll advise the parents, like, that the child needs to not be in a relationship with that person for at least a year. They need to literally get physically away from the abuser. So they can get clear on what happened.
I still can’t see clearly what’s going on. I mean, believe it or not, in the horrors of our story, I still wanted the marriage and a family. Because there are pieces that I love. After all, I married him, right?
Anne: Me too. No woman wants a divorce.
Nadira: But then addiction treatment made all these promises and hopes. And then my ex-husband was like a star treatment performer, so I had all this hope too. I’m well versed in addiction, because we’ve had so many experts that did so many models. And we’ve used polygraphs. We went to a really reputable treatment center, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, the whole thing about addiction is that he’s sort of a victim himself of his compulsive behavior and can’t stop.
We don’t ever put that same label on a domestic violence person. In other words, we don’t say to someone who physically abuses their family members, oh, well, you can’t stop and it’s compulsive. You don’t have the power to stop that. We expect them to stop that behavior. Or they will go to jail.
Covert emotional abuse: Empathy For Addiction
Nadira: With addiction, we don’t expect them to necessarily stop. There’s a lot of empathy and a lot of just like, well, do your best and you know, keep coming back. But we don’t put that same kind of pressure on addiction. We treat it as a addiction, that it’s a problem that they’re powerless over. However, if it’s domestic abuse, it’s completely different. I think there’s a huge disconnect.
Anne: Yeah, at the beginning, you read a brochure from a domestic violence shelter outlining these behaviors. So there’s a huge disconnect between the addiction industrial complex and abuse experts, because the addiction industrial complex does not recognize it as abuse. And then one of the reasons for that disconnect, apart from the fact that they know squat about abuse, is that abusers are manipulative.
And when they get caught. They have a “reason” for why they did it. They say things like I’m so broken, or I was abused as a kid. We all know someone who was abused as a kid, and they’re not an abuser. It is a lie that it caused him to be abusive. He chose to be abusive. And the addiction industry has decided to take these lies at face value. And they’ve made an entire industry around it. I mean, you and I felt shame. We felt a ton of shame.
But we didn’t abuse our own children. There are no excuses for this. They are too unsafe for their wife and children, the end. Like it does not have to be this complicated. It is just abuse. And he hides it because it’s covert emotional abuse.
The Addiction Model doesn’t Protect victims
Nadira: It doesn’t have to be so complicated. He lied to me. He manipulated, and it affected our whole lives. I mean, it’s totally affected our socioeconomic status. Everything’s changed in our life, and our children have been abused. And yet, he’s considered a addict, not an abuser.
Anne: And that’s wrong. That’s why I started podcasting. And that’s why I’m on this mission. I want to educate women about abuse. If you’re in a relationship with an active user, he is abusive. And you are a victim of his abuse. I’ve interviewed so many women, and they tell me over and over again, the behaviors they are experiencing. They’re all things that are easily identifiable as abuse by abuse experts.
And after interviewing all these women over the years, I know personally that the addiction model is not protecting victims of abuse. It is not.
Nadira: Well, if I had your podcast 10 years ago, I would have had tools to say, no, this is not about he said, she said. Or how do we love each other better? Or the five love languages or any of that. I married an abuser. I don’t know about you, but I grew up thinking, if you’re married to an abusive man, he hits you and yells at you. But mine’s the most subversive type. If you’re a listener and you can relate to me in that. You know, he didn’t really smack me around. I have no bruises or broken fingers. He didn’t yell at me.
Therapists & Clergy Failures
Nadira: He was aggressive and argumentative. He lied to me, manipulated and coerced me. He told me at one point, true story, that he was always four steps ahead of me. Four, think about that. Think about being four steps ahead of someone. They do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this.
That’s insane, if I had that, I could have identified it. Because again, I was married to Mr. Nice Guy, Mr. I have a smile on my face while I’m getting aroused with the children. The effects on our children and family have been grotesque. It’s really bad, right?
Anne: Yeah, it’s horrific. You have been through so much. Not just his abuse, but all the abuse from the therapists who were not helping. And clergy who were not protecting you. I’m so sorry. I’m so glad that you found my podcast.
Nadira: So this has been monumental for me. Because we spent thousands of dollars, tons of time, and just every resource trying to help my ex-husband recover from addiction. It was the wrong path, honestly. But with that, your podcast and listening to the guests on your podcast have helped me wake up to this is just an abusive person. And to treat the whole thing from a different perspective.
One of the things about your podcast, you know, it’s called Betraya Trauma Recovery. So I’ve recommended it to several friends who have been abused. But everyone thinks it’s about just betrayal, right? And I tell everyone it’s not, but that’s the thing. I think about it a lot, by the way.
exploitative Material as a covert emotional Abuse Issue
Nadira: Pornography, you know, is it freedom of choice or just abuse? Because that’s the big thing about it. People say it’s a first amendment thing, right? Like it’s freedom of speech. But if everybody came together, you and everybody came together. And talked about, in our culture, we’re allowing this abusive, destructive, national health crisis. We literally have a national health crisis on our hands. The masses aren’t educated.
Anne: Everywhere I go, I say it is an abuse issue. It’s not a first amendment rights issue. or an addiction issue. It’s not a sex issue. It is an abuse issue. It always needs to be addressed from an abuse perspective. When I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery in my area, all the women dealing with their husband’s use were labeled as having betrayal trauma.
And so part of what I wanted to do in labeling this podcast and the organization Betrayal Trauma Recovery was take that term and turn it into what it really is. We are healing from abuse. So I’m trying to make the term mean what it should mean. Which is when you are recovering from betrayal trauma, you are recovering from abuse. And the reason you’re recovering from abuse is because any betrayal of this type is abuse.
Finding the Right Path to Recovery
Anne: It could be called abuse recovery. But so many people right now don’t see it as abuse. And so instead, they say, Oh, she’s suffering from betrayal trauma. Then they go down the addiction route. And I wanted to be like, anyone looking for stuff on betrayal trauma, or going down the addiction route, I wanted them to find this podcast. So that they could get the truth, instead of spending years and hundreds of thousands of dollars going down the wrong path.
So I wanted to make Betrayal Trauma Recovery the place where any woman emotionally or psychologically abused. Or the victim of coercion could come and get the help she needed. Thank you for sharing your story today. We appreciate your insights.
Is My Husband Hiding Money? – Victoria’s Story
Oct 07, 2025
Are you asking yourself, “Is my husband hiding money?” If you suspect he might be keeping secrets, including financial ones, it’s important to recognize the signs. From sneaky spending habits to secret accounts, there are common tactics some use to hide things from their partners. This quiz will help you uncover if he’s lying in general, giving you the insight you need to determine whether money is part of the equation.
Here’s What To Do If You Wonder, Is My Husband Hiding Money?
1. Recognize The Signs Of Financial Deception
Is your husband secretive about finances? Does he avoid discussing expenses or where he is? Is it hard for you to get clear answers about what he is doing? Do you notice unusual transactions or missing funds? Financial dishonesty in marriage is a form of domestic abuse, because the intent is to control information and steal a wife’s power and agency. His actions could even be fraudulent, posing harm to others and implicating you.
2. Do Your homework and keep good receords
If you suspect your husband is hiding money or lying to you about finances or anything else, keep a journal of your suspicions and conversations. When it comes to finances, it’s important to carefully examine bank statements, credit card bills, and other financial documents in order to identify any inconsistencies. Comparing your husband’s behavior and your accounts can help you understand what’s really going on.
3. Don’t Talk To Your Husband About Your Suspicions Until…
If you believe your husband is hiding money from you or someone else, it’s crucial not to discuss it. After all, if he is dishonest, he’s already aware of his actions, and raising the issue could backfire. It may alert him to your concerns and lead to more calculated attempts to deceive you and others. Proceed carefully to protect yourself.
To see what’s going on without talking to him, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop will give you thought, communication, and boundary strategies to determine what’s going on. Without putting yourself at risk for his continued lies and manipulation.
4. Is My Husband Hiding Money? Understand That Lying About Money Is A Form Of Control
It’s important to recognize that hiding money or lying about finances isn’t just about secrecy; rather, it’s about control. In fact, financial abuse is a serious form of domestic abuse, as it limits your independence and freedom. If your husband uses finances to manipulate or control you, know that you’re not at fault, and there are resources available to help you.
Anne: I have Victoria Ellen on today’s episode. A Hulu show called Scam Goddess highlighted her story in season one, episode six. The Royal Racket. Although Victoria looks like a successful career woman, she led a difficult life. Behind the scenes, she spent more than a decade relentlessly pursuing justice for her children in a battle that led to the Ohio Supreme Court and beyond. Her husband lied about everything, including hiding money and committing fraud.
She started as a divorced single mother struggling to get by after escaping an abusive man. She and her children spent years in therapy to overcome the trauma they endured. After traveling that bumpy road, Victoria became an award winning business woman, a happily married wife and a proud mother to two thriving college students. She’s here to share some of her story. Welcome, Victoria.
Victoria Ellen: Thank you, Anne. Thank you so much for having me.
Anne: So you wrote your experience in your book, Painting in the Rain, A True Story of Trickery and Triumph. How courageous of you to put your story to paper. In fact, you have a Hulu episode about your story, Scam Goddess, season one, episode six. The Royal Racket is the episode name. Can you talk about why you wanted to share your story?
Victoria Ellen: Yes, you know, I just wanted to help other people. I had struggled for years, felt alone. And I really didn’t know which way to turn. I hoped that if I shared my memoir, perhaps I could help others struggling through their journey to freedom.
Meeting Her Ex-Husband
Victoria Ellen: When I first met my ex-husband, I was very young. I was 19 years old, very impressionable and he was 20. So we were just young and in love. He was Mr. Charisma, liked by everyone, fun, outgoing and seemed to have the world by the tail. Both of us participated in church.
My world was school, church and family all growing up. It didn’t change once I met him, and I would say now looking back, he had cult like behavior. He started his own cult after I divorced him, but you know, early on everything was happy go lucky. Really, he just swept me off my feet with the love bombing. And how wonderful he would treat me. And how God told him I would be his wife.
Anne: When did you start to notice if something felt off? And how did you define it at the time, not knowing what you were dealing with? Did you wonder,” is my husband hiding money along with other things?”
Victoria Ellen: Actually my mother started seeing some red flags. She was very concerned for me. The controlling behavior started early on, lots of secrets. But I had never been in a serious relationship like this. And so, I wasn’t thinking, Oh my, these are big red flags. I was just thinking like, oh, this is new. And there was a lot of emotion tied around it.
Because I’m white, I’m a Caucasian woman. And he is an African American man. I was raised in a rural area in Ohio in the 90s. And even then, you didn’t see a lot of biracial interracial dating. So, many people had opinions about that.
Red Flags & Controlling Behavior Escalates
Victoria Ellen: And I wasn’t sure if people were really genuinely concerned about me, if my red flags were valid, or if it was all rubbish. Because he was black, I was white, and the rest is left out there for people to make their own story about. But you know, I was completely under the spell. I drank the poison and in full blown deception land. Is my husband hiding money? yes, and other things. And didn’t listen to anyone, unfortunately.
I ended up pregnant while we were dating, and I pulled away from him during my second trimester. Because the first trimester seemed like a whirlwind, and I really couldn’t think. I had everyone telling me what I should do with my life. I had no idea what I should do with my life. And so I tried to take a moment to step away and get clear. I started thinking like, this isn’t normal. This isn’t right. There are many things here that are concerning to me.
But he started slowly working his way back. He sent gifts and cards, how much he wanted to see the ultrasounds, and check on the baby. It looked like oh, I just want to take care of you and the baby. And I don’t want you to worry about anything. I don’t want you to have to work or do anything outside the home. I just want you to stay with our child. And it all seemed, like, oh, this is the wholesome, American family dream.
Like we’re going to get married, have a family, and live happily ever after. So, I let him back in, in the last trimester, and he quickly whisked me off to get married.
Is My Husband Hiding Money? Marriage & Extreme Control
Victoria Ellen: Within days of being married, I realized I had made the wrong decision. He was extremely controlling. He controlled every area of my life. I was not allowed to speak on the phone with my family, without supervision from him. I wasn’t allowed to leave the home. My keys were often hidden. I couldn’t hop in the car and go somewhere.
My circle was very small. He controlled every area of my life down to what I ate. Whether I could open the drapes on the windows and just let some sunshine in. Really disgusting, despicable behavior. My last ditch effort was to go to our pastor and ask her to meet with us, because I was planning on an escape. I just didn’t know how to do it and I thought maybe she could help us.
We were in financial shambles, and the church helped us dig our way out. I still wasn’t thinking, “is my husband hiding money?” It was gone. They helped with a month or two of back rent, electricity and water, so we could have everything turned back on. However, he did not like the fact that I, you know, ousted him.
Anne: Oh, I am so sorry. It’s so hard to go for help, and it makes things worse, you know? For instance, everyone will tell a victim that intensive couple therapy will help, or clergy can help him see the light, so to speak. And even if he does change his behavior, she’ll later discover it was just more lies.The Living Free workshop talks about what to do to get help.
Victoria Ellen: Absolutely.
Anne: And why it’s so important to follow those strategies to keep yourself safe.
Challenges With The Justice System
Anne: Did you discover any other abusive behavior?
Victoria Ellen: Yeah. So exploitative content was definitely an issue in our marriage. He was a bodybuilder. And he ended up doing some air quotes, “modeling” with soft pornography. And of course, when I called him out on it, I was “crazy and insecure.” And with the abuse, of course, mental, emotional, and physical abuse, check all the boxes. Including, is my husband hiding money? As well, my son started displaying signs of sexual abuse as a 2-year-old, and I was pregnant with our second child.
And I’m sad to say that the justice system needs huge, massive reform. I was involved in a custody battle initially for three and a half years. As a single mother, with those two children fighting relentlessly to protect them because they were being abused. And the judge was clearly swayed in his favor. She seemed to have a personal affection for him, which was odd in our case, and I was not able to get her moved off of it.
He was gone for about 10 years after that initial 3. 5 years in litigation with the custody and the courts. When he came back, he wanted to reestablish parenting time. This started the next seven years of litigation. So we were involved in three different court cases. One, I represented myself as my own attorney in domestic relations court. A second case where my current husband had filed for adoption of the children. My husband won at the local level. My ex-husband appealed it.
Custody Battle & Court Struggles
Victoria Ellen: It went to the 12th district court of appeals. My husband won the right to adopt again at the 12th district court of appeals. My ex-husband appealed it again. Now in the Supreme Court of Ohio, they take 7 percent of the cases, okay? So 93 percent of the time your case will not get taken. We thought those odds were pretty darn good. But my story is so crazy. They ended up taking the case and ended up ruling again in favor of my husband to adopt the children.
They actually wrote new case law in the State of Ohio, specifically regarding this case. The third case we had was a two week federal trial. I worked with the Secret Service and U.S. District attorneys to bring justice to my ex-husband. So we had three court cases going for seven years. It was arduous, to say the least. I was sentenced to jail because my children refused to visit with their father, who was their abuser.
I had children’s services investigations and police reports. Detectives investigated and interviewed the children, and we still could not get the justice system to do what was right. This sheds a little light on why I am so adamant about bringing light to what happens in the court system and why we need reform. I mean, 10 years in litigation, it took a toll on all of us. I think a lot of people operate out of fear.
Because the courts tell them, you’re going to go to jail, and we’re going to take the kids away from you. So it does cause you to think you have to send your children to do these visits or else.
The Need For Justices To Be Educated
Victoria Ellen: And I was at a point where my children’s well-being was paramount. I would be one of those people who left the country, shaved my head, took on a new alias and started a new life. Because I refused to send my children back into the lion’s den with their perpetrators. My son had six abuse perpetrators by the time he was six years old.
Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry.
Victoria Ellen: Once they articulated who their perpetrators were, they were old enough to tell investigators who it was and explain in detail what had been happening to them. The system is broken. I knew it was broken, and that’s why we were tied up for so long, because I refused to give up. My ex-husband relentlessly used the court system to drive me through the mud.
Financially drain me, emotionally drain me to force me to sit in a courtroom and look at him when I didn’t want anything to do with him. It was sick. And we all know this now. I believe the court system needs to do something drastic. I don’t know what type of revolution we need. But these judges and magistrates need more education on narcissism, coercive control, manipulation and the effects of it.
Not only on the ex, the person raising these children, but also on the children, they’re going to grow up someday. I hope they could be successful adults and contribute positively to society. But when they’re relentlessly dragged through the mud, year after year, it’s hard to raise healthy, happy adults.
Abuse By The Justice System
Anne: Yeah that’s the thing about divorcing a narcissist they then can like abuse by the justice system. They can use the justice system to abuse you. Because you shouldn’t even have to be there. You’re just trying to protect your kids. The fact that you’re dragged in and have to pay money to defend against nothing. Because you didn’t do anything is crazy. It’s so expensive and time consuming.
Having been through it myself, it is maddening that the courts can upend people’s lives in this way. Just because someone is not in prison does not mean they’re an appropriate parent.
Victoria Ellen: Correct, absolutely, it seems like nothing matters. It doesn’t matter if you abuse your child, if you don’t pay child support, if you’re mentally abusive, physically abusive, check all the boxes. It doesn’t matter. The magistrate said to me, even bad parents get to see their kids. I mean, what an indictment on the judicial system.
Anne: Exactly, if it were a stranger, that stranger may be put in jail. But at the very least, no one would want that child to be in proximity to that stranger. At this point, did you also start questioning, “is my husband hiding money?”
Victoria Ellen:My husband and I were just day and night doing recon online. Trying to find any lead that we could regarding the life of my ex husband and what he might be up to. I knew he had picked up three felonies for fraud in previous years. But we couldn’t find anything on him, not where he was working. He drove cars not registered to him. Now, I’m thinking, is my husband hiding money? Evidence showed he was.
Is My ex-Husband Hiding something? Finding Aliases & Gathering Evidence
Victoria Ellen: He was driving luxurious cars, flashing a lot of expensive jewelry, things that would lead you to believe he was financially sound or successful in some people’s minds. So we just started trying to figure it out. We kept coming up empty. And one day I reached out to one of the victims in his first court case on fraud, where he has three felonies. And they told me that my ex husband used aliases. That he was not only a pastor now, but also posing as a prince of Ghana, Africa.
Anne: Wow.
Victoria Ellen: So I used all these aliases in Google. It was like a magic trick. His face started popping up everywhere. I started finding all these shell companies that he was operating. These businesses were under this magic key. And then I started gathering as much evidence as possible. Finally, I knocked on enough doors and went to enough people. I put together a file and filed a motion for a new child support order. Is my husband hiding money? I found that was true.
I was the only person with financial access, because I had two children with him previously. So this was another way for us to keep pressure on him. We had been in litigation at this point, like 5, 6 years. With all this nonsense, we were running out of money. It was outrageous. So I’d been in court long enough that I could fumble my way through hold my own.
My husband convinced me to be my own attorney. And so I went to court and had an exhibit book. I worked through that exhibit book for an hour and 40 minutes. I had my ex-husband on cross examination.
Is My Husband Hiding Money? Courtroom Strategies
Victoria Ellen: If you know anything about someone with narcissistic personality disorder, they love to talk about themselves. So I have a huge exhibit book full of pictures and documents of my ex-husband. He just kept flipping through it and was so excited to talk about all this and go through the exhibit books. He truly believed this plan and strategy he’d hatched, that this life he lived for seven years, was foolproof. Like, “nobody’s going to catch me.”
I’m above the law. I’ll never be held accountable for anything. Everybody believes I’m a prince, prophet, pastor, and CEO, COO. This thing is like Fort Knox, it’s locked up tight. Like no one can catch me. And that conceited, arrogant attitude of I’m above everyone, and everything, is the thing that actually helped us win that case. Because he thought he couldn’t be exposed. And he was exposing himself for an hour and 40 minutes. Is my husband hiding money? He was.
I literally had documentation of these businesses that he started in Ohio, and he signed them Prince Daryl Adepo. So he thought I’ll just use that. It says I’m a prince, a descendant of royalty in Africa. So I can just continue operating like this. But from the prior crime he had committed, he wasn’t even allowed to have a Series 6 or a Series 7, it’s a license. Financial advisors and investment brokers, would have those types of licensures, and he was posing as an investment broker.
You can’t even get that if you are a convicted felon. I mean, he’s a pastor of a church now, which is just laughable.
He’s Indicted On Federal Charges
Victoria Ellen: He claims to be a prophet, and he claims he’s the CEO and COO. And he’s a prince. So he’s got all this going on, and people are giving him money. So he’s getting the money from the church. And then he’s getting the money from the people that think that they’re investing in his gold mine in Africa that doesn’t even exist. They’re giving him their 401k. They’re selling their house or they’re taking out equity lines of credit against their house to give him money.
Because he’s promising a 30 percent return. That’s where the Ponzi scheme comes in. He’s got all this money, and that’s where all the flashy cars, the Rolexes, the diamond rings, and all the things come from. It’s like, oh, you’re stealing, you’re a thief and an imposter. That makes sense. Okay, now I get it, you didn’t earn any of this. So I ordered the transcripts, and I took the file I had been working on for five years, and I hand delivered them to the feds.
And, they indicted him nine months later on 16 federal charges. Fraud, conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, everything to do with fraud you could possibly imagine. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, and other lies. So it was our mission to expose him. He’s not safe. The lifestyle he lived was absurd.
And the fact that he even pretended he wanted time with these children was laughable, honestly, Because he didn’t want anything to do with the children. He wanted to get to me. The children would be there for visits, and he wouldn’t spend time with them. Because they wouldn’t leave with him.
The Trial
Victoria Ellen: Any other father with children sitting in front of them for a visit would sit at the table and have a conversation with their children. He did not do that. If the children were going to get in the car and leave with him, he didn’t want anything to do with them. He would say, “I’ll see your mom in court.” So it’s like, this doesn’t have anything to do about reestablishing a relationship with your children. It has to do with control and manipulation.
Anne: Wow, that’s amazing that you got that evidence on, your husband, who was hiding money and a lot more and turned it into the feds.
Victoria Ellen: So this is incredible. We were in a trial for two weeks, which is unheard of, because generally defendants know they are caught. They know they don’t have a case, and it’s pretty much closed book. It’s like you’re guilty, plead guilty, and here’s your sentence, you’re done. So the fact that this case even went to a trial is unheard of. This was on the tail end of COVID. There were 17 victims and witnesses through those two weeks. The jury found him guilty of 10 of the 16 charges.
The U.S. district attorneys dropped three charges. So he was guilty of 10 charges. And I was able to speak at the sentencing hearing. The U.S. district attorneys asked me if I would be willing to say something, and there was also another victim that spoke that day. After that, the judge said he was considering an upward departure, and the rules are a little different in the federal court system. So there are specific time frames assigned to certain crimes.
Is My Ex-Husband Hiding Money? Sentencing
Victoria Ellen: So, if you commit fraud, you’re supposed to get X amount of time. If you have priors, there’s this formula they use. Basically to generate how long they think you should go to prison. Well, the U.S. district attorneys were requesting 10 to 14 years for the crimes committed. Of course, the defendant’s attorney claimed he shouldn’t get any time. Because how could he pay back all his victims, these hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, lots of it.
Anne: Oh, if he was in jail. How could he defraud other people to pay for the other people he defrauded?
Victoria Ellen: Yeah, exactly. He stole $250, 000 from one man during the first case. And he never paid him back, and he continued to steal from people. And never did a day in jail for that either. So you know, this isn’t going to happen. So the judge says, I’m looking at an upward departure. Which means that the defendant should get 10 to 14 years. I’m considering going above that, because the crimes are so heinous and he is so despicable.
You should have seen the secret service and federal marshals that lined up in the gallery that day to watch the circus take place. Him on the stand doubling down the fact that he was a prince, that he had a gold mine in Africa. And he really was going to pay back all his friends. They’re not victims, they’re his friends. It was wild. The judge literally threw the book at him and sentenced him to 20 years in federal prison.
Anne: Wow, oh, I bet you felt so relieved.
Victoria Ellen: It was surreal, I couldn’t believe it.
Differences Between Court Systems
Victoria Ellen: For the 20 years we had fought him, he got 20 years in federal prison. And I just felt like it was a year for every year that we had been to hell and back with him. And exposed him, is my husband hiding money? Definitely.
Anne: Yeah, can you talk about the difference in your experience with the criminal court and the civil court? Women can get protective orders. Sometimes it’s difficult to get a protective order, but it’s not as hard, I would say, to get a protective order as it is to protect your children from the abuser. Police sometimes follow up on protective order violations or fraud, but in the civil court with custody.
There is nothing, it feels like, that anybody can do to protect children from abuse. So, can you talk about the difference between those two types of courts?
Victoria Ellen: Domestic relations court fails miserably when it comes to protecting children. And they continued to fail us year after year until my children were emancipated. They never did come through, ever. Not one time. For either child. It’s just very sad. I haven’t been involved with criminal courts at a local level. I’ve only been involved with the feds. They were serious about the law, and they weren’t listening to the lies, and were very black and white.
And domestic relations courts are trying to take into account all these factors. And I would just encourage anybody in the court system to document everything. I didn’t have phone conversations with him. Everything was via text message because text messages are admissible for court evidence. So are emails, and also recordings or videos.
Is He Hiding Money? Fighting for the truth to be told
Victoria Ellen: If you can document these things, people will start reading between the lines and see that this person isn’t who they are portraying themselves to be. Because they are creating their own reality. They’re just telling the story. I mean, my ex-husband literally created this life that was not real, did not exist, and doubled down on it. And all the lies. Is my husband hiding money? Yes.
And now he’s spending 20 years in federal prison. Because he tried to convince everybody that the lie was the truth. Unfortunately, everybody doesn’t have the same opportunity that I had at the federal level.
Anne: They’re just dealing with local courts, and it can be a daunting task to continuously go to court over and over again and not have your voice heard. Yeah, it’s very discouraging. Also, I talk to many victims who’ve documented everything. They have proof, and that hasn’t swayed the courts either. I had 40 pages of documentation, and it didn’t do anything. So strategy is so important, especially if you’re wondering “is my husband hiding money?”
That’s why I put the strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Again, you can get more information by clicking this link. It will teach you how to do it step by step, so that you have the documentation, but also how to use it strategically. For example, I learned in my case that those 40 pages, the guardian ad litem actually used it as proof that I tried to hurt my ex. Because what other loving co-parent would document 40 pages of child abuse against their co-parent?
Victoria-Ellen: Oh my oh, that’s what I’m talking about. It’s maddening, it’s maddening. It’s enough to send you over the edge. I’m not kidding, it’s crazy.
Advocating for Justice Reform Together
Anne: I’ve had a lot of times, like yelling and screaming in my own house by myself, not in court, jumping up and down. So, how can this be happening? None of this is even sensical in any way shape or form. And it’s so frustrating. Your story can help bring this to light. All women listening to this podcast are interested in reforms in the justice system to ensure that we can protect children from abuse. I’m so glad you’re safe now. You are a warrior. You’re amazing.
Victoria Ellen: Thank you, thank you. Well, it takes one to know one, and you know, we just have to bind together. We can’t stand by and watch evil prevail.
Anne: That’s what it is, like legit evil. They know what they’re doing and doing it on purpose. In fact, they know they’re hurting people and don’t care.
Victoria Ellen: They don’t care, no. Well, when you lack empathy and compassion, what else is there? Just to wreck people’s lives? What you’re doing is making a huge difference, Anne. I appreciate you standing in the gap and helping educate others. Because I didn’t have anything like this when I left 25 years ago. Thank you for fighting the good fight.
Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story.
Victoria Ellen: Thank you so much for having me.
Why Do I Feel Like My Husband is Cheating On Me? – Laurie’s Story
Sep 30, 2025
“Am I paranoid? Why do I feel like my husband is cheating on me?”
Laurie Hall, author of An Affair of the Mind, couldn’t prove her husband was cheating. But no matter how hard she tried, the feeling of dread wouldn’t go away. Laurie shares her powerful story.
If you feel dread about your husband, it would be that you’re experiencing one or more of the 19 types of emotional abuse. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.
Why Do I Feel Like My Husband Is Cheating? Am I Just Paranoid?
There are behavioral patterns that can indicate your husband is cheating, including:
Lying
Rage
Not knowing where is he or how he spends his time
However, it’s important to understand that for many women, including Laurie, there are NO signs of infidelity, at least for a time. Just a feeling that something is “off”.
So What Do I Do if I Feel Like My Husband is Cheating?
Rather than exert emotional energy to find definitive proof, we suggest women enroll in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, which will help you determine your husband’s character step by step, without exposing you to more lies or manipulation.
Please seek support as you work through difficult feelings, including the dread that your husband is cheating on you. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are a safe space for you to talk through your situation, ask questions, and receive the validation and compassion that you deserve.
Transcript: Why Do I Feel Like My Husband is Cheating On Me?
Anne: Today, I have Laurie Hall with me. She’s the author of An Affair of the Mind. She wrote the first book about addiction written from the perspective of the partner. And it broke ground in a world that saw the partner as codependent and just as sick, in her own way, as the addict, which we know isn’t true.
And Laurie knew wasn’t true, even then. Laurie refused to accept that view and advocated for partners. She said they were betrayed and traumatized, when they feel like their husband is cheating.
Laurie you talk about how prayer helped you discover your husband’s addiction. Can you talk about that?
Laurie: Yes, this is a great place to start the discussion of how this whole issue can lead to a spiritual crisis. Because I knew there were problems in my marriage, I didn’t know what I was dealing with.
My ex-husband grew up in the mission field. He had a White House security clearance when I met him. Everyone who knew him said, Oh, he’s a super nice, squeaky clean guy. So I really thought I was marrying a boy scout, but there was just this sense that something wasn’t right. And I kept trying to figure out what it was.
And I went to my church for help. Because as a young Christian woman, I wanted to know how to do marriage God’s way. They told me I needed to submit more, that I needed to support him more, that I needed to pray for him more and every remedy they gave me. They put me further and further under. At one point, I thought, well, they said you’re too strong. If you were not as strong, he would be stronger.
Turning To Scripture And Prayer
Laurie: And I just kept thinking, well, wait a minute. I’ve read all the books, become a fascinating woman, a total woman. I’ve become the he’s from Home Depot, she’s from Walmart woman, and nothing was working. And it was still just this sense that something was wrong. I decided to put all the outside advice outside and spend time back in scripture. Which I already was a student of the Bible, but I was reading the Bible based on what other people told me it meant.
So I began to go into the word, and I started to pray. You know Lord, if I’m otherwise minded, Christ Jesus shows me what it is and shows me what’s going on in my marriage. Because I know there’s something, and I don’t know what it is. But I know you know what it is, because you are the God of all truth. So show me what the truth is. I prayed this for years. Part of what happened was that I came to a different understanding.
That I had of who God is before I could even grasp the truth of if my husband is cheating. So I began to see God in a bigger, more empowering, more loving way as I studied the word, and then I decided to start fasting. And so the first time I fasted, I got this impression in my head that was almost like a voice saying to me, there’s three problems in your marriage.
Confronting The Truth
Laurie: The first one is your husband’s taken $350 that doesn’t belong to him. The second is he’s committing adultery. And the third is that he has a lot of pride. At that point, I was like, okay, this is what comes of trying to fast and pray. You’ve now gone completely nuts. Because you’re hearing a voice. I was like, why did you do this to yourself? Because obviously none of that can be true. I married a boy scout, and sure enough, shortly after that, I found out about the $350.
He confessed he had a lot of pride, and that left this little nasty thing in the middle, which was the adultery. And I said, I think you’re committing adultery. And he said, oh no, I would never do that. You’re a horrible person for believing that. Why would you even accuse me of that? You’re probably the one doing it. I continued to pray and seek the Lord. And eventually I started having dreams, and I started having dreams where I would see exactly what was going on.
Then I decided that what I was going to do was accept that this is the truth. Whether I had any evidence. Because my husband hid everything. Even his best friend who worked with him didn’t know what he was doing. I began to journal. I said, I feel like my husband is cheating me. And I don’t know what to do about it, but I’m turning it all over to God.
Validation AnD Support when I feel like my husbasnd is cheating
Laurie: And one day as I was praying, the phone rang and it was a woman I barely knew. She said, God has heard your prayers and seen your tears, and he’s going to heal you. And within …
Anne: Wow.
Laurie: … an hour, there was a phone call from a credit card company I did not know. My husband had a credit card, and there was a past due payment, and that’s how the truth came out that my husband was cheating.
Anne: Wow, I am so impressed. Because I had dreams, nightmares, and I just thought I was crazy. And I have this like super intense sense of dread that I told my husband about. And I was like, I have the worst sense of dread. I think something bad’s going to happen. And then in the same breath, without listening to him or waiting for his response, I said, ah, I must be crazy, right? I just kind of dismissed it. So I am like, so impressed that you were like, no, I will take these dreams and feelings as the truth. That is gutsy.
Laurie: Well, you know, let me back up and tell you how not gutsy I was and what actually forced me to that position. Because just like you, I thought I was going nuts. I actually one day climbed into bed, put the covers over my head, and started running my finger up and down my mouth. Like I said, I am going crazy because part of me says there’s something wrong and this is what it is. And the other part of me doesn’t know how that could possibly be true.
Accepting The Truth
Laurie: And therefore, I’m choosing to ignore what I’ve asked God to show me. And so I’m going to have to take a giant leaf of faith and say, this is the truth, my husband is cheating. If I’m wrong, hey, I’ll own it, but from here on out, I’m not second guessing myself anymore. So I get it, girlfriend. I was there. It was that period when I was going to go crazy that made me say, yes, I’m accepting the truth.
But back in your day, you didn’t have any resources like Betrayal Trauma Recovery, or anything else. And so you just decided to trust yourself. And that is incredible. That’s one thing that the Living Free Workshop does teach women to do. Like how to get in touch with their sacred internal warning system, so they can discover the truth of their situation.
Laurie: I completely agree with you on that. Can we say it? How awful is it that your worst nightmare is actually true? Okay. I mean, this is not the thing you wake up to and accept. Okay. It’s an awful, awful thing. I mean, the ground drops underneath your feet. On the one hand, you’re happy to know you weren’t nuts.
Understanding Spiritual Senses
Laurie: On the other hand, you’re like, I wished I would have been nuts, because this new reality is something I don’t want to deal with, but we are not trained how to live in the spirit. This was a big aha for me, because when I realized I have a body that has senses in it. It has the sense of touch, sight, taste, hearing, smell. And through those senses, I experience the physical world. I have a soul, which allows me to know my internal world, and those senses are my mind, my will, and my emotions. So I shouldn’t ignore that my gut is telling me my husband is cheating.
But I also have a spirit, and it is through my spirit that I know God, and that I experience others in a transcendent way, where deep connects to deep. And this has nothing to do with what I can see with my eyes. But it is an inner knowing that we have, and our spirit senses are conscience, intuition, and communion. And we’re designed to operate from the spirit into the soul and out into the body. So when we intuit something, it is God speaking to us, the absolute truth.
And the idea would be that if we’re operating in a healthy way, we take that information into our mind. And provide instructions for our mind based on what our conscience tells us. This is a good situation, or this is not a good situation. And then the will tells the body what to do in response. And as the body follows these instructions, our emotions are at peace because we’re in integrity.
Mind vs. Spirit Conflict If I feel like my husband is cheating
Laurie: One of the ways we can know that we’re not in integrity. And I don’t mean this in the sense that we’re intentionally doing something we know is wrong, but where we are second guessing our spirit. Because when our mind doesn’t have the facts, we argued, spirit and the mind argue. You know what I mean? It’s like, no, that can’t be true. I have no evidence. Yes, it is true because God sees it as it is, but our mind doesn’t see it. I mean, I only saw exploitative material in our home one time. And we were married for 33 years.
So I had no physical evidence. As you know, this particular addiction, there’s no needle marks, there’s no telltale breath. It’s very easy to hide.
Anne: Yeah.
Laurie: When your emotions are a mess, it is a sign that your spirit is arguing with your soul. Because your soul doesn’t have any facts to back up what your spirit is sensing. And so you’re second guessing yourself. But if you say what I’m sensing, I’m going to accept that as true until proven otherwise. And then start lining your actions up with that, you will find peace in the midst of the storm.
Anne: Wow, this is cool, to accept that you could be right about your husband cheating. I love you.
Laurie: I love you. It only took 20 years to figure that out.
Anne: When did you write your book? What year was it?
Laurie: It came out in 1996.
Anne: 1996, man, I’m just thinking, I know so many women who are your age or older who went through this. And they, of no fault, didn’t know what was going on, didn’t understand it, and were abused for years.
My Job according To The Church
Anne: I am just in awe that you’re part of this generation of women caught in all cultural issues. All the misogynistic things that at the time were common that you couldn’t even see. And you had this head on your shoulders to see this thing straight. You’re like a hero. You’re my Shero.
Good job, way to go. I think many other women saw it, but they didn’t write a book. Many women kind of figured out what was going on. But then it was super scary to speak out about it back then. And it still is now. I mean, sometimes people think I’m crazy. So once you knew about your husband’s cheating, did you go to your church for help? And if you did, what happened?
Laurie: Yes, I did. As a woman of faith, I wanted to handle this God’s way. I can remember saying, what are the rules? What are the rules? What are the rules? And so I went to my church. I entered a buzz saw when I did that. And I was told things like, well, I needed to pray for him. I was the more spiritual and mature and therefore it was my responsibility to pray for my husband.
And then if I would just pray for him and trust God, he would become a man who would stand at the gates. Okay, they quoted proverbs for me. That was my job. To create that in him, I was told I needed to be more available. I was told I had to be more submissive, that no matter what he said or did, I needed to trust God in the middle of all that.
Church’s Naivety And Misguidance
Laurie: I can remember sitting there in my pastor’s office, and I just wanted him to say, adultery is wrong. That’s all I wanted him to say. He didn’t have to give any magic solutions, or I just wanted him to say to me what has happened to you is wrong. And instead, he told me that it was obvious why my husband was doing this, because I was such a strong woman. And he was totally lined up with my husband. I can remember going to a Christian counselor, and my husband had taken some money from one of our children.
And as part of his making amends, he was supposed to apologize and return the money. Just before we went to see the therapist the next time, this child came to me and said, you know, dad still hasn’t dealt with this issue.
And this child was sobbing. I mean, it’s breaking my mother’s heart to see my child suffer like that. So we went to see the therapist, my ex-husband went in first. And when I got in, the therapist was thrilled, because my husband had cooked up this story about how he had gone to the child and apologized, and given the money back, everything was great. I sat there with my mouth open, and I said, no, that’s not what happened. He’s like, What? And I said, no, none of that happened.
This is where the church is so naive. And believe me, I’m not trying to slam Christianity. This man said, well, he wouldn’t lie to me. And what he was saying is that he lies to you because you’re too hard on him. He didn’t believe the my truth, that I knew he was cheating.
Women’s struggles With church Leadership
Laurie: You’re not on his team. And if you would just be on his team, he wouldn’t need to lie to you. But I’m on his team, and he knows I’m on his team. So he wouldn’t lie to me.
Anne: Like you’re the problem. You caused his lying, right?
Laurie: Exactly, that’s it. I’ve received so many letters, and so many tell similar stories. I’ve had women suicidal because their church disciplined them because they dared to try to get help. Also I’ve had women who were excommunicated. They’re shamed. They’re made to be accountable to another woman in the church for whether they’re properly submitting and praying for their husband. And are they giving their husband it? Because of course, that’s a woman’s responsibility. You know, don’t withhold yourself.
And I want to believe these people are well intentioned, although at some point I began to doubt. Especially when I saw the size of the problem in the leadership of the church, because many, many, many pastors have this issue. They’re so naive about how real life operates that they have this fantasy that if we just do A, B, and C, then everything will be okay. And that marriage is all about roles instead of relationship.
So they teach marriage as roles, and therefore, you know, the husband is ahead of the home. The wife must submit to him. The children must obey the parents. What it does is create dysfunction. Because you don’t learn how to be in a real relationship. When marriage is all about power, who has the most power? There’s no listening, negotiation, conflict resolution, and there’s no way to be truly intimate.
Being On The Same Team
Laurie: How to recognize and celebrate each other’s strengths, and how to support each other in weakness. Because if somebody is weak, if your husband is cheating, especially if they’re at the top, everybody’s going to be scared because they’re vulnerable. Instead of this is a team effort. let’s pool our resources here.
Anne: I always felt like I was on the same team with my husband, my ex now, but that he was always in competition with me.
Yes, I couldn’t understand that. And I thought, well, we’re on the same team. Like I’m trying to solve a problem. Let’s solve it together. But he didn’t like the resolution of the problem if it wasn’t his idea. And then I found him taking credit for the things I had done. Instead of saying, Oh, my wife did this. She’s amazing. He took credit for it himself.
I started to be really bothered. We’re not on a team. Like he sees me as some kind of minion, like to set him up higher and higher. Or the better I look, the better he looks, not the better we look. Does that make sense?
Laurie: It totally does. You can see how that worldview feeds into the narcissism of the addict.
Anne: Yeah.
Laurie: The goal is to be admired, right?
Anne: Right, and the more you love them and forgive them, submit and serve them, and all those things, the more their abusive behaviors get them what they want. The reason why men use these abusive behaviors, manipulation, lying, etc., is because they get stuff out of it. If they didn’t get anything out of it, they wouldn’t do it.
Male Church Leaders And Exploitative Material
Anne: Number one, and number two, unless they stop getting something out of it, they’re not going to stop.
Laurie: That’s right.
Anne: Yeah, it’s working for them. So the whole love forgiveness service type stuff, which are all wonderful values. But the abuser just continues to get all the things they want, and they have none of the accountability. In fact, the women are held accountable, like what you said.
Laurie: Yes, and that’s a sad thing. You know, these women are going into a church with all male leadership. And this is hard to talk about, Anne, because, I mean, my relationship with God is important to me. And I don’t want to needlessly put the church in a bad light. I’m just saying, talking to hundreds of women, and there are some pastors who do a fabulous job, fabulous job of supporting women.
But there are some institutional things that happen in the church. In fact, a Barna group survey showed that 57% of pastors and 64% of youth pastors struggle with exploitative material or have struggled with it. She could actually be talking to somebody who’s husband is also cheating and has the same problem her husband has, and not know it. And it becomes like clubbing baby seals. There are these women are so vulnerable. It just breaks my heart what happens.
Anne: Church leadership further abuses them.
Laurie: Yes.
Anne: Yeah, it is painful and it’s wrong.
Laurie: Yes.
Cultural Shifts and Speaking Up if my husband is cheating
Anne: I’m so excited about the time we’re in right now, though, with the Harvey. Is it Weinstein? Weinstein?
Laurie: Harvey Weinstein.
Anne: I don’t know how to say it, but all these women who are being like, I can speak up. And women who are being taken seriously, and women who before people maybe said they were crazy. Now it’s coming out. No, all the things this “crazy” woman said were true. It’s an exciting time. And it’s exciting, because women are becoming healthier and talking about their husbands cheating.
And that will enable and help the men to become healthier too. Because I envision a time where men are accountable for their behaviors. Where they are responsible and fantastic husbands and fathers. And that is what everyone wants. It’s not like we want like, the demise of the male. We just want,
Laurie: We don’t want that.
Anne: No, we want them to step up to the plate and become men.
Laurie: And we want to be women.
Anne: Yeah.
Laurie: I love the idea of being loved. I love the idea of a close relationship with a strong man. That just makes me feel all kinds of feminine. When I’m with a man with good character, who knows how to treat me. Who I can sense is genuine. Now, genuine, not perfect, because if he’s trying to look like he’s perfect, there’s probably a problem.
Anne: It’s like, oh, scary, scary, yeah.
Laurie: So this is how we grow together. This is the beauty God wants for us. And you’re right. We are living in an exciting time, because the cover is being pulled off of this stuff. And more and more will come out.
True Spirituality And Integrity
Laurie: I believe this is the time where God will pull the cover back and give us opportunities to become who he truly created us to be, which is loving beings. I mean, that is what the whole purpose of being here is. It’s about loving one another. You know, those who love live in God. That’s one of the teachings of scripture. And if we’re not loving each other, we’re not even experiencing God in any real way.
Anne: And if we don’t have integrity, we’re not experiencing God in any real way either. The true, like living our truth, living in the truth, right?
Laurie: Absolutely, you bring up such a fabulous point, because I’ve been going to many church conferences. And I’m listening to pastors say that the way we deal with this issue is that we just draw closer to Jesus. We substitute the pleasure of pornography for the pleasure of being with Jesus. I want to say, okay, hello, hello. We’re talking about the way. We’re talking about the truth, we’re talking about the life. First of all, drawing closer to the Lord is about actually living in truth, as you just so brilliantly said, Anne.
It’s about living in what is true. It’s about, as we know, and rely on the love God has for us, and know that we live in love. Then we’re made complete so that we can love others. That it’s about one another, about being close to others. That’s how we truly express our spirituality. And Jesus even said that. He said, when you feed the hungry or the thirsty or clothe the naked, you’re doing that as if you were doing it to me.
Real Relationships vs. Fantasy
Laurie: This thing about a relationship with God, that is some kind of, I want this to come out right. I’m just starting to see this in a bigger way. It’s almost like they’re teaching to replace the fantasy of exploitative material with the fantasy of an imaginary relationship that happens in your mind. Instead of how we treat each other, how we see God all around us right here, right now, and rejoice in that. Love one another and respect one another. You can’t have this respect if your husband is cheating.
Instead of checking out where I’m having a magical relationship in my head, with someone as a substitute for actually having a real relationship with a real human being. And I hope that doesn’t come across as heretical, but I think it’s key because we’re still teaching men to dissociate.
Laurie: To dissociate, because it all happens in their mind, instead of this place of vulnerability where we’re naked before each other, loving each other, and feeling what it is to be truly loved.
Anne: That’s awesome. You’re very emphatic.
Laurie: I am, I feel it so strongly, because I’m sitting here pounding.
Anne: I love it.
Laurie: It’s about learning how to be in a real intimate relationship, without cheating. That’s where the wholeness is.
Anne: Well, if you just respected him more, if you just loved him more, and if you just did more laundry, right?
Laurie: Oh, I had more sex. Don’t forget that part.
Anne: Yeah, oh, that. There’s a leader in our church that said, I’m gonna hammer this, but he said true religion undefiled before God is helping the poor, the widows, and the orphans.
Call For A Theology Of Trauma when Your husband is cheating
Anne: And these men, through their actions, which are ungodlike, create widows and orphans. They are leaving their wives, or their wives have to say, you can’t be around us anymore because you’re so unhealthy, and cheating and infidelity are abuse. The opposite would be taking care of a woman, so she does not become an affair widow. Making sure you are a good husband and father, so that you do not leave your children fatherless.
And it is based on action, not your ideal version of what you are like, based on all the scriptures you can quote. Or all the prayers that you can say in church to make you look beautiful. It’s actually what your real relationship is with your wife and with your children.
Laurie: Yes.
Anne: Women who are truly loved and cherished love and cherish their husbands. This is why women search for Christian help for infidelity.
Laurie: Yes, they do.
Anne: They love and cherish their husbands, even when their husbands abuse them.
Laurie: Yes, they do.
Anne: They just want their family to work, you know.
Laurie: In fairness, some women are real horror shows. So, I mean, it’s not all in the men. It’s about this whole thing of, you’re right, faith without works is dead. We can talk a good talk, but how do we walk the walk? The church needs a theology of trauma. That understands that the pursuit of justice is a godly pursuit. And one that allows us to reestablish trust where it’s been broken.
Because a theology of trauma understands that there’s a difference between forgiveness and restoration. And between grace and calling a thing a thing, so that grace can much more abound.
Church’s Role In Justice
Laurie: Now it says in Isaiah 117, To learn to do right, to seek justice, to defend the oppressed, to take up the cause of the fatherless, and plead the case of the widow. And Anne, you’re so right. We are affair widows. The church is called to be salt and light in matters of justice. And if the church would just do this, if they would just stand for living in truth and support what is true. Then I truly believe we could restore families, because there would be a path forward.
Anne: Yeah, there is no path forward without accountability.
Laurie: No.
Anne: None, no one believes us, when we say I feel like my husband is cheating. Well, I appreciate you coming on today. Thank you so much for being here, Laurie.
Laurie: Oh, thank you, Anne. It’s been a real pleasure to talk with you.
Scriptures on Betrayal: How To Move Forward After Infidelity…
Sep 23, 2025
Here are some of the most common scriptures on betrayal. Then I’ll dive into an analysis of betrayal—specifically in the context of a husband betraying his wife, using examples from the scriptures of Judas. Here’s what you need to know If you’ve been betrayed and are turning to scripture for guidance.
scriptures about Betrayal and Broken Trust
Psalm 41:9 (ESV) Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
Psalm 55:12–14 (ESV) For it is not an enemy who taunts me—then I could bear it; it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me—then I could hide from him. But it is you, a man, my equal, my companion, my familiar friend. We used to take sweet counsel together; within God’s house we walked in the throng.
Jeremiah 12:6 (ESV) For even your brothers and the house of your father, even they have dealt treacherously with you; they are in full cry after you; do not believe them, though they speak friendly words to you.
Luke 22:48 (ESV) But Jesus said to him, “Judas, would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?”
bible Verses When you Need Strength and Protection after Betrayal
Ephesians 6:10–11 (ESV) Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
Psalm 23:1–4 (ESV) The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want… Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
What About Justice and Truth? What Does bible SAY about betrayal
Psalm 101:7–8 (ESV) No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes. Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land.
BIBLE VERSEs About Healing and Forgiveness AFTER BETRAYAL
Matthew 6:14–15 (ESV) For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
James 1:2–5 (ESV) Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness… If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach.
Mark 11:25 (ESV) And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Finding Hope and Identity From SCripture In the Midst betrayal
Philippians 4:13 (ESV) I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
John 14:6 (ESV)Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Transcript: Scriptures on Betrayal: How To Move Forward After Infidelity
Anne: On today’s episode, we’re gonna go over Bible quotes on betrayal. So these are scriptures on betrayal, most of them scriptures about Judas that will teach us what the Bible says about betrayal, what Christ says about betrayal.
One of my favorite parts of this interview was when we talked about what happened at the Last Supper, especially in the context of betrayal in marriage.
Here’s a preview: Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table, and you’re like, he’s gonna betray me. In that moment, what did they tell us?
They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to intensive couple therapy. So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, hold on. Can somebody call a couple therapist. He didn’t say like, “Wait, can you guys, hold on, I’m gonna pray so hard. It’s going to fix Judas and I will come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment?
But before we get to that part, I need to set the stage.
Scriptures on Betrayal: When You Suspect He is Unfaithful
Anne: And I’ve invited a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Jesse. Welcome Jesse.
Jesse: Hi, thanks for having me.
Anne: Before we go on, BTR is interfaith and inter-paradigm. Hopefully, what we talk about today will apply to you. Everyone is welcome here. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session our team understands betrayal, because it happened to them. Jesse and I happen to be Christian, so we’re gonna share from our own experience. We’re from different denominations, so we’ve had different thoughts about it over the years.
I invited her specifically to talk about how Jesus dealt with betrayal. Because one morning I was studying bible verses on betrayal and I realized, Jesus was betrayed, by an “intimate partner.” Someone on his side, except Christ knew Judas’ character was not the best. Also the juxtaposition between how Christ dealt with Judas, and how he dealt with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, his known enemies.
Christ obviously had righteous disdain for some people. I mean, I’m sure he loved them in a cosmic way, but he really didn’t like them. He wanted people to know that he didn’t like them. He was very direct and called them vipers. And he threw over the money changers in the temple. He called them thieves. He knew they were exploitative.
Jesus & Judas: When He’s In Your Inner Circle, But Not Actually Close
Jesse: Yes, I was thinking about what the bible quotes about betrayal, and about Judas and his relationship with Jesus. I read an article that mentioned when the disciples are listed in scripture, they’re typically listed in a consistent order, with Peter, James, John and Matthew almost always listed first. Saying that was an indication of the closeness of the relationship. Judas is rarely listed in that way. He was part of the 12, but he wasn’t part of Jesus’ close knit circle.
Anne: But I guess there were lots of people who wanted to be an apostle. Christ didn’t have to pick Judas as an apostle. He’s definitely closer to Jesus than the average person. There are probably lots of people who were like, “Hey, I wanna ride on Christ’s coattails,” and they weren’t chosen as apostles.
In the context of betrayed women. They’re not necessarily close to their husbands. He lives with them. He goes on family trips, they go to church together, but are they actually close? This is something I feel like women instinctively know is a problem. They know they’re not close, and when they try to repair or remedy it, he just says they are.
Scriptures on Betrayal: Verses In The Bible That Show What To Do After Infidelity
Jesse: Right, in my case, I always felt part of my husband’s life. I definitely did the labor of caring for the children, caring for the household, and supporting him in his career. We did not have a life together as an intimate couple. We were roommates. Sometimes we were friends. We did travel a lot and did a lot of fun things together. But we did not have a partnership. I was a part of his life.
Anne: In my study of scriptures on betrayal, I wondered if it was like that with Judas. I wonder if Judas thought Christ was part of his life, not the other way around. Like he wanted to be close to Jesus for his own benefit, but not for the gospel. ‘Cause he’s part of a club. I’m like, I’d love to go to a dinner with 12 people where somebody made me food.
You know, I’m thinking about the last supper. Yeah, I wanna be part of that club. I would say that before I realized my ex was lying to me, we weren’t close. Any time I tried to get close, he would be like, “Of course everything’s fine.”
Jesse: Absolutely, it was almost like we were living in two different realities. And I kept trying to pull him into my reality, which was family and building this life together with mutual interests for the benefit of one another. And he was in a different reality. Where pretty much everyone and everything centered around his life and what he wanted to accomplish. We were all supporting actors in his reality.
Anne: Well, and, your husband won’t stop lying to you, so anytime you say, “Hey. Are we a family?” He’s like, “Yeah, we’re a family. It’s all good.”
Prophetic Scriptures on Betrayal: Warnings about Cause & Effect
Anne: While studying the scriptures on Judas, I began to imagine he might have experienced something similar. Where Christ is like, “Hey, you’re gonna betray me.” And Judas is like, “No, I’m not. Everything’s fine, of course we’re unified.” Speaking of that, let’s talk about the prophecies in the context of betrayal. So we’ve got in the Old Testament in Zechariah, people prophesied that Christ will be betrayed. Now anyone could have betrayed him. He was probably betrayed by more than just Judas. I believe these, I’m gonna say “prophecies”, do I believe in prophecy? Yes.
And didn’t we all do these same prophecies? We’re thinking, if he keeps doing this. Then this will happen. Rather than a prophecy, can we think about it as more of a cause and effect? It’s pretty clear.
If you continue to sext your coworker, you are likely to actually have sex with her eventually. I mean, is that a prophecy or is that this leads to this? As wives beholding our husband’s character. We make these types of, I’m gonna say “prophecies.” But do we make them because it’s set in stone, or are we saying this because we desperately want to avoid it? It’s the second answer, he was betraying him, which is how we knew he would betray him.
If you lie, then you’re going to have an affair, but you’re already lying about your affair. This is what the bible says about cheating husbands. And I’m wondering if that was the case with Christ and Judas, where he’s like, “If you keep doing this, you’re gonna betray me.” But the thing he’s doing is already betraying you.
How Jesus Dealt With Betrayal: Your Husband is Worth Warning
Jesse: Right, Christ is definitely giving Judas the opportunity to turn from his course of action. Christ knew, and he says it to him in such a way that Judas has an opportunity to change. And that’s what I certainly did with my husband. I would let him know about signs I saw that were gonna be damaging to our marriage. I gave him the opportunity to see what I saw, and he rejected it.
Anne: What these scriptures on betrayal show us is that this man who apparently has something about him that makes Jesus want him as a disciple, he’s worth warning.
There are two ways to go about this. There’s the 12 step way, stay on your side of the street. And then there’s the “Christian” way, pray for him, make sure he is not too stressed out, submit to him, and all that. If you’re being betrayed, it’s your fault in some way or another.
I’m like, no, it’s not because Christ was the most perfect person. But we’re not so bad. Like, the things that we do are totally normal and good. Anyone would do them. Just like we’d say, “If you go on this business trip, something bad’s gonna happen.” If Christ was perfect, giving Judas little indicators did not stop Judas from doing it.
Why would any pastor, any therapist, or anybody out there be like, “Oh, the reason why he had this emotional affair was because you guys aren’t close emotionally.” Like, no, it is actually the opposite. We weren’t close emotionally, because he wasn’t coming to you with his emotions. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
Scriptures on Betrayal: It’s Not Your Fault, Here’s Why
Anne: So from Matthew 26, we learned that this was Judas idea. In Matthew 26 :14, it says, “Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,” so not the other way around. It’s not like the chief priests approached Judas. Judas approached them. In 15, “And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him to you?”
And at that point they’re like, 30 pieces of silver. And then in 16 it says, “And from that time he [as in Judas] sought opportunity to betray him.” So it was intentional. He knew he was doing it.
You know what these passages from the Bible on betrayal don’t say. They don’t say it was because Jesus always placed him last or prioritized Peter, James, and John before him. Nowhere does it imply that Judas betrayed Jesus due to a lack of attention. Instead, the scriptures make it clear—Judas made his choice.
Scriptures on Betrayal: When Your Husband Chooses to Betray You
Anne: As far as prophecy goes, Christ says in verse 24, “The Son of man goeth as it is written of him:” So yeah, it’s been predicted I’m going to be captured and killed, but then Christ says, “but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.” Meaning, yes, I’m going to be captured and killed. That is true, but you don’t have to do it. Judas didn’t have to do it. Somebody else would’ve done it. There were many people who hated Jesus at this time.
This like, well, “life is full of trials.” Sure, but does your husband have to be the one that causes all your trials? Does your husband have to be the one that makes things difficult? No, he doesn’t. He could make different choices.
I don’t have this so much in my faith, but I hear from others that there’s this like sense that the devil made you do it, so it’s like the devil’s fault when it’s the opposite. The devil didn’t enter into Judas until after he’d made the deal, until after he’d taken action. So does the devil become involved if you’re Christian? I believe yes, from my study of the Bible verses on betrayal.
Jesse: Yes.
Scriptures on Betrayal: The Devil Didn’t Make Him Do It
Anne: But only after you make the choice. Satan doesn’t make you do anything.
Jesse: In my faith tradition. In recent years, more of a charismatic tradition. I wouldn’t say this is a primary belief in some circles, but there is the tendency to believe that there’s demonic activity to a significant level involved when people engage in destructive activity. Like we know, the devil steals, kills, and destroys.
So anything that fits in that type of behavior gets labeled as demonic. It’s my opinion, at this point, that gets overused as an excuse: the devil made me do it. This person habitually cheats on their spouse or engages in destructive behaviors. So there’s a tendency to label that person as having a demon that’s “making them do this.” I don’t believe that today. You’re making those choices of your own free will.
Anne: Yeah, in John 6:70-71, one of the Bible quotes on betrayal, Christ says Judas is a devil.
Jesse: Wow, interesting.
Anne: If someone is wicked or they are evil, who is the devil? The person doing it.
Jesse: Yeah.
Anne: So rather than the devil made me do it. I am doing the bad thing. Like I am wicked. I am the evil one.
Jesse: I’m doing this, yes.
Anne: Because if he wasn’t doing that bad thing, would the devil be involved? No, and who is the devil in that scenario? Not that he’s the devil with a capital D, but Christ himself calls people wicked, evil. He says about Judas, “one of you is a devil?” Not one of you is controlled by the devil or is possessed by the devil. One of you is.
Jesse: Is, it’s pretty blunt.
Is it Me? Lessons from The Scriptures on Betrayal For Marriages
Anne: These men we’re married to, we can tell something isn’t right. We might not know what it is, because they’re lying to us, they’re manipulating us. Or maybe we know what it is. But even when we try to talk to them about it, we can’t figure out what’s going on. Because they lie. Christ is like, “Hey, one of you will betray me.” And Judas said, “Master, is it I?” He knows he’s already betrayed him. He knows he’s already made a deal with the head of the religion at the time.
Christ was a rebel. He was going against the head of all of the religious authorities at the time. So, Judas is saying, “Is it me?” So you take your concerns to your husband and say, “I’m really concerned. Are you betraying me?”
“Me, me? Am I betraying you?” When he is betraying you. So, you’re not gonna get a straight answer. Christ was perfect, and Judas lied to him. So, if any pastor or therapist tells you he’s lying to you because he doesn’t feel safe enough to tell you the truth, you can just be like, that’s just not true. Judas lies to Jesus’s face and acts like he doesn’t know if he’s gonna betray Jesus or not. When he already has betrayed him, and he’s planning on betraying him still, and the plan is in the works.
Now, Jesus knows this. Some of us are aware of our husband’s lies. So let’s talk about that in the context of the scriptures on betrayal and our Savior, Jesus Christ. Because he knew what Judas’ character was. And maybe he’s still hoping Judas will make different choices.
Scriptures on Betrayal: Bible Verses About How To Face It
Anne: There are so many women who listen to the podcast, and they realize their husband is emotionally abusive. He’s psychologically abusive, he’s been lying to them. And I did it too. We try to get him help, and people blame us. “Why did you do that?” In the scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, Christ provides a profound example. He knew Judas was a betrayer—this is evident in John 6:70-71, long before the Last Supper. Yet, he chose not to dismiss him. The reason for this remains a mystery.
I’ve heard that in some faith traditions, they attribute not necessarily good intentions to Judas, but maybe an explanation for why he did it. That gives him the benefit of the doubt. Which is heartbreaking, that someone would try to give Judas the benefit of the doubt, but then it doesn’t surprise me. Because they’re still doing it in the context of our husbands. They’re giving our husbands the benefit of the doubt, despite the awful choices he’s made.
All of us have a devil in our house essentially. Someone who is making bad choices and betraying us, lying to us all the time, and undermining us. And somehow everybody wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The therapist wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The clergy wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, our neighbors. So I’m like, Oh, it happened with Judas too. They’re giving Judas the benefit of the doubt. That is so crazy to me.
Judas’ Good Intentions?
Jesse: Many of Jesus’ followers believed that when the Messiah came, He was going to overthrow the Roman Empire. So it’s possible that Judas led the authorities to Jesus to force Him into a position where he would rise up and take his rightful place as the Messiah and overthrow the Romans.
Obviously, he was greedy and he was selling Jesus out, but there was also that thought process that he might have been operating in sort of a nationalist type of way. Trying to force Jesus to do what he thought He came to do.
Anne: There’s so much to learn about Judas’ character in these Bible verses on betrayal, on so many levels. If they say he had “good intentions,” because he was trying to force Jesus to do something. No, because the control aspect is not good intentions. If he loved Jesus, the first commandment is to love God. The second commandment is to love your neighbor. If you love this person and care about them, are you really gonna put ’em in a position where you’re forcing them to choose between death and rising up and starting a big old war?
That’s extreme. The concept that somehow, someone was good because they’re willing to sell someone out, make them face death, and force them into this extremely awkward position for political gain, would we say? Was it politics back then? Who was in charge? Were the Romans in charge? Were the Jews in charge? You’re putting the people you love in danger.
If Christ came to love and serve, and bring people together and have compassion for people, that’s like the opposite of what Christ wanted. and you’re trying to force Christ into a box. It doesn’t make sense.
The Scriptures on Betrayal: When Religious Leaders Criticize Women for Doing the Right Thing
Jesse: Regardless, Judas benefited from being in Jesus’ circle. Whether his motivation was greed or whether it was political. Christ is growing in popularity because people are realizing who he is. Judas was benefiting from that.
Anne: Yeah, maybe the reason Christ said you’re a devil is because he knew Judas was exploitative. John 12, showcases Judas. Judas’ exploitative character, where Mary anoints Jesus with expensive perfume, and he criticizes Mary. She’s not doing anything wrong. That all of us have experienced, we’re doing something good. We’re trying to protect our family, and we’re criticized no matter what we do. And then he lies and says he cares about poor people, he doesn’t.
Jesse: She understood who Christ was. She was anointing him. So, that gives us an insight into Judas’ character and his understanding of Christ. ‘Cause he was criticizing her for doing what she did.
Anne: I mean, here’s an apostle criticizing a woman for doing the right thing.
Jesse: Yes.
Anne: It’s a Biblical fact, in the scriptures on betrayal. We can say this is Biblical, that men in religious positions criticize women when they’re doing the right thing. Here’s a prime example of that, and Jesus was not a fan. In that instance, Christ was there to call Judas out.
Jesse: Yes.
Anne: But when we’re in our pastor’s office or our bishop’s office, and we’re with our husband. And he’s criticizing us for not praying enough, or asking too many questions. That was what I got all the time. I ask too many questions.
Jesse: Right.
Scripture calls Judas a Thief
Anne: Jesus isn’t there in that moment to say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Nope, that’s not what’s happening.” And so it’s hard to tell. Because they’re your religious leader. Hopefully, by showing examples in scripture of how Jesus spoke about betrayal, we can help women have Jesus in their heads.
Jesse: Yes.
Anne: Say, you’re not doing anything wrong.
Jesse: Right.
Anne: You’re okay. He’s the one doing the wrong thing. In John 12:6, we know Judas wasn’t doing this because he cared about the poor. Because it says, “not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief.” They use the word thief. The label of thief indicates someone who’s exploitative.
They want something without earning it. They wanna steal it or take it from someone who has done the work. Like, you’ve done all the work to keep your family together. You’ve done all the work to have a good marriage. You’ve done all the work to ensure your kids are okay, and then he is a thief in that he just wants the fruits of all that without having to do any of it.
Jesse: Right.
Anne: So this word thief in these Bible verses on betrayal indicates that exploitative nature.
The Scriptures of Judas: Jusitfying Exploitation
Jesse: That’s right. If Judas justified what he was doing for political gain. Let’s say, for the “greater good” of all. My ex-husband could justify everything he was doing. I would ask him about planning for the future, and he would not wanna have a discussion about it. But then in the therapist’s office, he would talk about how he was planning for our future. So he had this ability to rationalize that he was doing those things when he wasn’t.
Anne: So many women say I think he ended up believing his lies. And I think the jury’s still out on that one. It might’ve been he pretended to believe to get what he wanted. I think they know they’re lying. And the reason why I say that is because when I lie, I know.
Jesse: Yes, now I believe he knew what he was doing. And he still knows what he’s doing. Because he’s capable of telling the truth when he wants to. He was skilled at giving bits and pieces of truth to me.
Anne: As a tactic.
Jesse: Where he could “honestly” say to me that he was telling me the truth. He just wasn’t telling me the whole truth.
Anne: So he’s using truth to lie and get what he wants. In Judas’ case and the verses on betrayal, in Matthew 26, he actually makes a choice. He’s like, “Hey, you pay me. I’ll give Jesus up.” Now, this part to me does not make sense. The people who wanted to kill Jesus for sure knew who he was.
Judas capitalized on his betrayal
Anne: We know this was the case because Christ himself says in one of the verses on betrayal, Matthew 26:55, “Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye lay no hold on me.”
These guys manufacture all this when you could have just come and taken me anytime. I was always out and about.
Judas was trying to capitalize on his relationship with Christ for his own gain. And so are these husbands who don’t love their wives, who cheat on them and lie, but want the benefits of having a wife. They want someone to cook, clean and plan the trips.
He could have been honest about it and said, “Hey, I don’t love you. I’d rather have sex with someone else”, or “I’d rather use pornography and masturbate than have sex with you.” But then they’d give up all the benefits she gives him. They’re not willing to be honest, because they’d have to give up those benefits they have not earned. So here again, he says the word “thief,” like you’re a thief, because you could’ve just openly come and captured me while I was out and about.
It also shows he deliberately did it.They could have found him anywhere. That somebody needed to arrange where he would get caught is ridiculous. Also, Christ knew he was going to take upon him the sins of the world, be crucified. This was all going to happen, whether Judas was involved or not. I just really feel like Judas was like, “How can I benefit from this?” ‘Cause it’s going down anyway. It also shows he did it deliberately.
The Scriptures of Judas: He Did It Deliberately (affairs are hard work)
Anne: Let’s talk about this for a minute. Men who have an affair. It takes work.
Jesse: It does. A lot of work.
Anne: They have to figure out how to get her phone number, or they have to text her. They have to figure out what lies to tell you. And none of these things are accidental. I’ve always laughed about this when teenagers, they’re like, “Oh, we accidentally had sex and she’s pregnant.” I’m like, so your pants accidentally unzipped and they accidentally came off, and your private parts accidentally went into her private parts. What are you talking about? There was no part of this that was accidental. There’s no part of this where you like fell into sin.
Jesse: Yes.
Anne: Was caught in sin.
Jesse: Sometimes those things will be excused as a mistake. It takes the intention and personal responsibility out of it as something that you accidentally did, and that’s not true.
Anne: I mean, it takes planning. It takes effort. I mean, that’s like saying I accidentally robbed a bank.
Jesse: Yes,
Anne: No, she just started kissing me. What was I supposed to do about it? I accidentally looked at explicit material. What are you talking about? I’ve literally never accidentally watched Star Trek.
I’ve never accidentally, I don’t like the show Friends. I don’t enjoy it. I’ve never accidentally watched it ever. If it comes on, I just turn it off. So these guys are not accidentally watching explicit material, they’re seeking it out. Like in these scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, he sought the priests.
Jesse: Exactly.
Self Control in scripture isn’t gender specific
Anne: If they do run into it, just like I might run into “Friends”, then I just turn it. It’s like not a big deal. There’s no accidental, I viewed pornography for three hours and masturbated, no.
Jesse: Yeah, exactly. Yes, like they have no self control. A lot of the Christian marriage literature I read painted men as not having any self-control. Women were painted as the gatekeepers of sexuality, and we either needed to ensure that our husbands were satisfied, on demand whenever they wanted it or needed it. It was touted as a need for men. If we did not do that, of course, they were going to stray because we were not meeting their needs. Self-control in scriptures on betrayal is not gender specific. We’re all supposed to have it and be able to control ourselves.
Anne: Well, like what were they supposed to do before they got married?
Jesse: Exactly.
Anne: If you’re in a coma, like does that justify either raping you in your hospital bed to be graphic about it or having an affair? Because apparently they must have sex. That’s so crazy.
Jesse: A very specific example: When we were in counseling, my ex-husband told me he needed sex to be connected with me. The way that played out in reality after we had sex, he would go off and do whatever he was gonna do, engage in his hobbies, go to work, whatever.
And then he wanted sex again. Then he’d be gone again. The Christian literature did not help, because it fed that narrative that it’s the way men connect. And I had to do that first to establish emotional connection. And that never happened.
The Other Disciples Didn’t Know: Lying in Plain Sight of Everyone
Anne: And so that means it’s a lie, and that means it was always manipulation because you’re always hoping. And this happens with couple therapy too. It happens with pastoral counseling. You’re always hoping the next session will be the breakthrough. Every intimate time, maybe then you’ll feel emotionally connected.
But it never comes, because it was all a lie to manipulate you to have sex whenever he wanted, but he didn’t care about you. He was just using you. So we talked about before the devil didn’t make him do it. He is the devil, Christ says. Then he says in one of the verses on betrayal, “One of you will betray me.” We know people heard it because everybody asks, “Is it I?”
He says, “I’m going to dip the bread and give it to the person who will betray me.” This reminds me of a dinner I had with my family. My ex is there, my whole family is there. I talked about this on the Josh Powell episode, ’cause it was right after Josh Powell had murdered his kids.
So I’m sitting at dinner with everyone, and I’m like, “Hey, if anything happens to me, Chuck did it.” And I said it in front of him and my family, ’cause I thought that would keep me safe. So, I wonder if Christ is like, maybe if I out him in front of everybody, then he is not gonna do it. And then, Judas eats it. I’m like, why did he eat it? I’m wondering if he was like, well, everybody else ate their bread.
If Judas Didn’t Repent When Christ Confronted Him, Why Would Your Husband Repent When He’s Confronted?
Anne: So, I’m going to eat it and be like, of course it’s not me, but I have to eat the bread ’cause everybody else did. I don’t know what was going through his mind, but that’s interesting to me that he ate it. Part of me thinks that when we have proof, we know that he is texting a coworker or something, and we take that and put it in front of him. And the thought is he’ll be like, “You got me.”
So in this instance, I can imagine they’re like, this is Christ. Do they know that he’s perfect? This is a question I’ve been wondering. He’s their friend. He does stuff on Sunday, and they’re like, you’re not supposed to do that on Sunday. They question him.
So we know he’s perfect, but they might not have truly understood because they’re seeing him do some things that aren’t traditional, that aren’t within cultural norms, so here’s Judas’ thinking. “What do I do? He’s calling me out in front of everybody.” And it reminds me a little bit of when you have proof.
They don’t respond the way you think. And so if you have thought, “I’m gonna show him this, and then he’ll have no choice but to repent.” Know that our Savior, Jesus Christ, also was like, “Hey, the person I’m gonna give this bread to is the person who betrayed me.” In these scriptures on betrayal, Judas still did it. If you’ve enrolled in the Living Free Workshop, you’ll understand why these strategies don’t work and what Christ taught us to do.
Offer The Truth and Let Them Go
Anne: There are verses on betrayal and several places where Christ talks about what to do with someone who is dangerous, which he actually did with Judas. He let Judas have his own way.
Jesse: Yes, there are several instances in scripture on betrayal where Jesus confronts people. He gives them the opportunity to accept the truth. But he does not pursue them and continue to say, “Hey, I’m telling you the truth here. Why aren’t you believing me? I’m the Messiah.” He just doesn’t do that.
He offers the truth and lets them go on their merry way. Something that as a Christ follower and wife, I got a lot of mixed messages on that: don’t say too much because he’s your husband, he’s busy, he’s working hard, he’s stressed out, so don’t overburden him with all these worries that you have. I was encouraged more to go after my husband in his love languages, like his need for physical touch, or making sure the home was kept just right. The lesson from scripture for me now is that Jesus presented the truth to people. He let them go and do what they were going to do.
You said two things there that I thought were interesting. The part, like, don’t burden him. This type of, I’m gonna say “Christian” teaching is a double standard, because he is supposed to be like Christ. And Christ wants you to take all your burdens to him.
But apparently you are the one who’s supposed to bear all the burdens, and you’re not supposed to take any of your burdens to him. that’s a problem.
The Scriptures of Judas: Betrayal Was Happening the Whole Time
Anne: The second one, so many people talk in these verses on betrayal about Judas’ betrayal of Jesus, as if it happened the night he actually gave him up. But it was happening the whole time, it’s happening when he criticizes Mary and throws her under the bus. It’s happening when he actually makes the deal with the religious authorities. It’s happening the whole time. So when Jesus says, “The person I give the bread to will betray me.” Judas already betrayed him. He has a history.
If we were in Christ’s position, not if we are Christ, but if we’re there, and Judas is our husband at the dinner. And we’re like, “Hey, he’s gonna betray me if he keeps doing this stuff.” Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table and you’re like, this is what’s happening. He’s gonna betray me. Now in that moment, what did they tell us?
They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to couple therapy. So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, “Hold on, push pause on this whole thing. Can somebody call a couple therapist.” He didn’t say, “Wait, can you guys, hold on? I’m gonna pray so hard, it’s going to fix Judas, and I’m gonna come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment? He says, “Whatever you’re gonna do, do it fast.”
Jesse: Yes.
Anne: Paraphrasing, whatever you’re about to do, get on with it.
Jesus Didn’t Need to Change to Prevent Judas’ Betrayal
Anne: A lot of us feel this urgency, like something’s gotta change. We get to that point. But in scriptures on betrayal, instead of everyone else being like, “Jesus got to that point too. I get it, good for you. You’re following the Savior’s example.” Instead, they’re like, no, no, no. Hold, wait, wait, wait, go to couple therapy, get pastoral counseling. Have you prayed about it? Are you staying on your side of the street?
In that moment, he does not pursue Judas. He doesn’t try to get Judas to change. He doesn’t do anything about Judas. Also, he also doesn’t do anything about himself. He’s not like, I need to go to 12 Step, or I need to be a better communicator, or I need to change so that Judas doesn’t betray me.
Jesse: Right, I’m certain he’s been aware of Judas behavior all along. It’s hard to reconcile that Christ would allow Judas to still be part of his inner circle behaving that way. But he finally gets to that point, and I think this is the lesson certainly for me. When you’ve said all the things. And you’ve tried everything you knew to do, to reach your husband. Saying, “Hey, I see this thing happening. I’m not comfortable with it. Please pay attention to our marriage. Please protect our marriage.”
And you realize they’re still gonna pursue this person, or they’re still gonna pursue pornography. I finally got to the point where I was like I don’t wanna live the rest of my life trying to figure out what the truth is. Trying to figure out when the next relationship will happen.
Scriptures on betrayal: Betrayed With A Kiss
Anne: Because you’ve been able to see his character. He’s been betraying the whole time. I wanna make that clear. And then wouldn’t even say final act of betrayal, actually. ‘Cause we’ll talk about more betrayal that happens afterwards. He kisses him. How many of us have been betrayed with a kiss? They kiss us, act like they love us or care about us when they’re just exploiting us. In our case, this is sexual coercion. Where they’re lying to us about what they’re doing. And Judas said the same thing.
Now, I wanna pause here and talk about the difference between Judas betraying Christ the whole time and the night that Peter denies the Savior. So here’s another example in the Bible on betrayal and Christ prophesying. But I’m starting to believe this was more of a directive, because Peter is a good person. No one ever called him a devil. And Christ says, “Before the cock crows, you’re gonna deny me three times.”
I’m wondering now if it was a directive, “Look, these people wanna kill you. I don’t want you to die. I want you to be alive so that my work can continue. So you will deny me three times.” And maybe Peter’s like, “But I don’t wanna deny you.” And he is like, “No, you’re going to,” and then in the moment Peter’s like, “Oh, I get it. They might kill me. So, yeah, I don’t know him.”
The Living Free Workshop talks a lot about these, I’ll say ethical and moral quandaries, where we’re sometimes to choose between our safety and being honest with someone who’s trying to exploit us. Our intentions are to protect ourselves.
Scriptures on Betrayal: Peter was Different
Anne: Whereas if they say, “Hey, I was just trying to protect myself from you.” Their intention is to exploit you, but they’re lying about protecting themselves ’cause they don’t need any protection.
After Peter does that, the rest of his life he tries to spread the gospel. He’s like, “I did survive. I felt bad about denying him that night, and the rest of my life, I will try to bring people to Christ.” There are so many examples in the Bible on betrayal and people who do terrible things. And then they repent, and they spend the rest of their lives as a missionary. Paul’s one of those.
So, Judas could have been like, “Oh, I really messed up. I’m gonna spend the rest of my life making amends for this.” Judas does not do that. So this is one other thing I want women to think about. A lot of us are like, if I could just get him to feel remorse, if I could just get him to understand.
If he has an exploitative character and does feel remorse. We don’t know what he felt remorse for. Did he feel remorse that like Jesus was crucified and he couldn’t use Jesus anymore?
Jesse: Hmm.
Anne: He couldn’t use him for political reasons. His political aspirations are dead in the water if he was riding on Christ’s coattails to do that. And because he doesn’t actually believe in him as a Savior.
Scriptures on Betrayal: Look for the Fruit of Repentance
Anne: What reason does he have to look to his teachings anymore or any of the principles of the gospel? Whereas Peter actually believed the principles of the gospel and wanted to teach them to people. But Judas doesn’t have any faith or hope. So I want women to remember that if he has an exploitative character, remorse will not do anything.
Jesse: Right, it’s not gonna bear good fruit. I think it actually mentions in one of the translations of these scriptures on betrayal that Judas had worldly sorrow. Whereas if it’s a Christlike fruit of the spirit type of sorrow, Godly sorrow. You’re prone to return to Christ where your hope comes from. And return to repentance, truly feeling sorry for whatever harm you’ve caused. The worldly sorrow tends to be more self-centered. I’m sorry I got caught. I’m sorry I’m experiencing pain.
Anne: i’m sorry that I can’t exploit him anymore.
Jesse: Right.
Anne: I’m sorry I can’t have my cake and eat it too. Men who want to use explicit material and also have a family. They might express remorse that they can’t do both. It seems so genuine when they’re talking to us. To think of them feeling really bad is actually true. It’s just that they’re lying to you about what they’re feeling bad about.
Jesse: Right.
Anne: Because Judas didn’t do anything to help the cause after that.
Scriptures on Betrayal: Following Christ’s Example
Anne: So to recap, what can we learn from the Bible about betrayal and the way Jesus handled Judas betraying him, the whole time Judas exploitative character? Number one, Jesus saw Judas character through his actions. He never sugarcoated it. He called out what was happening in real time, when Judas was doing it with Mary. And he warned what would happen if Judas didn’t change. Despite those warnings and clear indicators from the Savior himself, Judas kept lying, exploiting, and betraying.
So if somebody tells you to stop shaming your husband, or to quit sharing his so-called “mistakes” with other people, or to stop being judgy. Feel free to roll your eyes at them. Following Christ’s example means speaking the truth plainly and boldly, and calling out truth isn’t wrong. It’s never been wrong, and anyone who tells you it is, that’s manipulation so he can continue to exploit the situation.
So if he doesn’t change or gets worse, none of it has anything to do with you being honest. I say that, while also saying the Living Free strategies show the part I talked about with Peter, like how to protect yourself when you are in danger. It’s important to know what those strategies are. Because Christ himself says there are times when it’s not safe to say the truth boldly. Like, don’t cast your pearls before swine, agree quickly with an adversary.
1. You Stating the Truth Is NOT The Problem
Anne: I cover this in detail during the Living Free Workshop, so I encourage you to check it out.
But first, let me be clear—stating the truth is not the problem. Searching Bible verses on betrayal helped me find strength and clarity on this.
2. Jesus Was Perfect and Someone Still Betrayed Him
Anne: Number two, Jesus is perfect, and someone still betrayed him.
So if anyone’s telling you that if you prayed more or did something different, your husband wouldn’t have betrayed you, that is a lie. There’s nothing you could have done. It was all his choices.
3. Remorse: What Are His Actions Telling You
Anne: And number three, if your husband has a deceitful, exploitative character, even if he seems to feel “remorse”, it will not lead to repentance.
So if you’re trying to observe, does he have this type of character? And he’s had those moments where he seemed remorseful before. And he continued to do it. You don’t have to find out again. Just like Jesus already knew long before the final betrayal.
But I’m gonna say the final betrayal was that he didn’t spend the rest of his life making amends for what he’d done. He just completely gave up on the gospel, altogether. Because Judas had the character that he did, remorse won’t help him.
So if you’ve been thinking there’s something you could do to get him to feel that, it wouldn’t necessarily lead to what you’re hoping for. It’s really sad. So like our Savior, women want peace. They want a peaceful home.
That’s what I wanted, you wanted, and what all of us want. Following Christ example, Judas didn’t change. We can be confident knowing that it has nothing to do with us.
Jesse: Right, it’s manipulative to put the pressure on wives in our cases to keep us caught in this cycle of doing whatever the next thing is to try to get our husbands to change, to repent or to feel sorrow. Having sex in order to get him to connect with me emotionally felt manipulative to me. Because I’m doing something in order for him to be nice to me.
You’re not doing anything wrong
Jesse: I shouldn’t have to do that. But most of the Christian teachings I read and was exposed to didn’t frame it that way. It framed it as my duty, and he needed that to connect with me.
Anne: Yeah, no one says, Christ, if you just prayed more, Judas wouldn’t have done that. Maybe if you spent more time with him alone, maybe you paid too much attention to Peter, James, and John, and you weren’t paying enough attention to Judas. I’m thinking he’d be like, “What are you talking about? The reason I didn’t wanna hang out with Judas as much as Peter is ’cause he was a pain in the butt. What do you mean? It’s not me, it’s Judas.”
Jesse: Yes, exactly.
Anne: Why would I wanna hang out with him? He is not a good person. Like, why would I wanna have sex with my husband? He is not nice to me.
Jesse: Exactly.
Anne: This is crazy town. I think he would say that, because of my study of bible verses about betrayal. I think he would be like, “You’re not doing anything wrong, Jesse and all listeners.” I did the same thing, and Judas still betrayed me.
Jesse: That’s what I love about the Living Free Strategies. The way the strategies are laid out helps identify your own thought processes and their thought processes. For me, as a believer, as a Christ follower, it helped me question, why am I believing this thing my husband is telling me? Because my body tells me something’s not right. You want to believe what your husband tells you is true, but when their behaviors give you something else, you have cognitive dissonance.
Living Free Strategies
Jesse: Telling me that he needs me to tell him what to do in our relationship, but he seems to have no problem figuring out what to do to reach out to this other person. So Living Free gave me a framework where I could actually write things down and analyze if it is really true. The exercises really made things clear. Helping me discern when he’s lying to me, what is actually happening here. And what do I do to have peace and love that I desire and I am worthy of having?
Anne: You are, all listeners right now are worthy of love and a healthy relationship. And a therapist or other type of coach might tell you if he’s unhealthy, then you are. And that’s not true. You could be the healthiest person like Jesus Christ, and have a relationship with an unhealthy person who betrays you. The Living Free strategies give women mental, psychological and emotional space to observe truth.
Jesse: Yes.
Anne: That’s the hardest part of all this. What is actually going on? Who is he in relation to me? What am I to him? Living Free makes that clear, because I just don’t think divorce is the solution.
Maybe a domestic violence shelter will tell you that divorce will solve all your problems. I’m grateful I’m divorced. Would I ever tell a woman not to get divorced? No, if she wants to get divorced, go for it. But my ex abused me post-divorce for eight years.
If you share kids, figuring out the strategic way to see him for who he is. Whether married or not, is so important. Because he’s going to be that person, just like Judas was no matter what.
Learning Strategies to help you
Anne: People are like, oh, just don’t let him affect you, while he’s emotionally punching you in the face. You’ve got an emotional bruise. There’s nothing you can do about that bruise.
It doesn’t matter if you’re married or divorced, he’s still going to affect you, even if he’s just texting you about your kids. Learning these strategies while you’re married, divorced, or whatever your situation is no matter what’s going to happen, is really important.
Because no matter what, metaphorically, there’s no way you can get punched in the face and not get a bruise. Jesse, thanks for helping me sort all this out. There are lots of things to think about. Thank you so much for being here to talk about this today.
Jesse: Yeah, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.
The Best Betrayal Meditation To Heal From His Lies
Sep 16, 2025
If you, like many victims of betrayal are desperate for stillness and peace. It’s hard to find the perfect betrayal meditation to heal from your husband’s infidelity. Here’s what you need to know.
Did you know that infidelity is a form of emotional abuse, so you’re really healing from so much more. To see if he used any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
When You Need Peace & Healing NOW
We understand how exhausting and stressful it is to experience emotional abuse. You deserve peace. Anne Blythe, founder of BTR.ORG, developed The Living Free Workshop to offer peace and healing from betrayal regardless of your circumstances.
Transcript: The Best Betrayal Meditation To Heal From Infidelity
Anne: Three betrayal survivors are joining me today to talk about how meditation helped them heal. For me too, at some point in my recovery, meditation was the only thing that helped me. So even though I searched for meditations on YouTube or the library or other places, there weren’t any meditations specific to our situation.
Pat: I love the focus on safety. I don’t think we talk about our safety enough in our culture. I found myself during the meditations really contemplating safety in my life. And I appreciated the process of walking through the idea of safety in all aspects of my life. It opened the door for me to process. I realized that I have never felt safe in my environment ever, especially with my ex husband.
But I see how. It was a slippery slope, as I was numb to safety in my immediate environment during my marriage. I was conditioned to not feel safe as a woman in the culture. It was very helpful. I have four daughters, three adult daughters, and I still have one minor at home. Because I didn’t feel safe in my marriage. I subconsciously protected them from my ex husband, and now I know why.
Empowerment Through Meditation
Pat: After listening to the meditation, I’m feeling more empowered to help them. I noticed that they are also numb to experiences that risk their safety. Because they’ve been conditioned to not process their safety in their environment.
Anne: So did the meditations, help you also heal from the emotional abuse you experienced and all the ways your husband was holding you back?
Pat: Absolutely, the interesting thing about the meditation is that it’s not specific.
Anne: It’s general, because I wanted women to adapt it to their own situation. Did it surprise you how specific it was to you and your experience, even though the meditation itself was relatively vague?
Best Betrayal Meditation For Women
Pat: Oh, absolutely, there’s a part in the meditation where you go through many ways that we can feel unstable. Really at risk in our environments, and you name off lots of different areas. And the one area, it was just safety. Safety was huge for me. I had no idea it was so big for me. You know, I’m almost three years into this since D-Day.
I knew safety was big, but until that meditation. And you going through the process of using all the adjectives to name off different areas that we could be struggling. Or we could have this feeling of oppression, which felt heavy. The part that was very hard was when you said, now feel it in your body. And I was like, uh, my first walk through the meditation. I was like, I don’t want to do this. And then by the third time I was like, all right, I can do this.
And allowing that feeling in the body, and then having this white light release, it felt very uplifting. By the end of the meditation, I felt a release having the opportunity to release it, I felt peace.
The Importance Of Releasing Oppressive Feelings
Anne: Well, and the point of feeling all the ways you feel unsafe throughout your body. Everywhere in your body meditation is to help you acknowledge the emotional abuse, so that you can release it. Emotional abuse affects your body in profound ways, just like we’ve been in an abusive relationship and didn’t know it, we’re also unsafe in so many ways, and we don’t know it, but our body knows.
Pat: Yeah.
Anne: And if we tune into that, we can recognize it and then make some progress to release it. But also as we release it, it helps us make changes in our actual real life, not just in meditative form.
Pat: Yes, absolutely, you know, it’s like the onion. The first time I listened to the meditation, I didn’t even want to get into the onion. And then the second time it was like, okay, I can feel this. Even in some groups talking about safety, because safety seems to be the biggest thing, safety and oppression. I also recognize that I don’t like limitations right now. And I don’t like things pushing in on me.
I struggle with budgets. I struggle with calendars. Because I don’t want to feel that pushing in. I’m starting to feel that freedom of not having this oppression. And so when you went through the process of feeling the oppression, allow the feeling in your body. And I was like, this is the same feeling I don’t like about having requirements on me right now.
I need to feel that freedom in my life right now. And it felt like there’s nothing wrong with me for wanting to feel this, because the oppression is what I’ve lived with for so long.
When You Need Consistency to Heal From Betrayal
Anne: You’re just trying to figure out a way to live with a different feeling.
Pat: Yes, very much. And so that brought that up to the surface too.
Anne: So for our listeners, because there are so many topics covered by the meditations. She’s actually talking about going through the same betrayal meditation multiple times, which I recommend until you start peeling those layers back. So let’s talk about the process of going through the same meditation several times. What was the difference between your attitude or your experience the first time and the third time you went through that same meditation?
Pat: Going through it the first time, I didn’t know what to expect. I was very guarded. I felt cautious. By the third time, I knew what to expect. And it felt safer in my body, because I knew what was coming and knew I could process this in safety. Even though it was difficult to feel the feelings, I knew I could move through this.
Anne: Okay, so by the third time, you were like, this is safe. This is a good place for me to process these difficult feelings. This meditation will enable me to release them, and feel peace.
Pat: Yes, that’s exactly, exactly what I’m saying. I do well with journaling. So the workbook helped me take pauses, process in a legible way, documenting it, getting out of my body. So then it allowed me space to revisit when I had time after the meditation to navigate through the process of what I had just experienced.
Navigating Meditation With A Workbook
Pat: So it gave me space during the meditation to work through where I was at. And when I repeated the exercise three and four, where I wrote down what was happening in my body. It allowed me to get it out of my body. I could process my emotions and get it out of my brain. So I didn’t have to hold onto it and remember before the next step.
Anne: So for anyone who’s thinking, I want to lay down or I don’t want to sit. And I don’t want to fill out a form. What would you tell them about this particular healing meditation for survivors and this particular workbook?
Pat: For me personally, it was hard to write in the workbook the first time. I would tell them to move through with your gut. Maybe the first time isn’t the best time to write down things. Maybe for them, listening to the meditation is the best they can do at the time. That’s okay. It’s really for them. And when they get to a space where they want to actively navigate the meditation. And get things out of their body and brain, then use the workbook as a tool for their own healing.
Anne: That’s awesome that you said that, because that is the point that women use it, any way that is useful to them.
Pat: Yeah, we heal in different ways. The part where you went into all the different adjectives of possible oppression. I had to pause that. And so for some women, maybe they just need to process, and everybody processes at their own pace and time.
The Power Of Visualization In Meditation
Anne: Yeah, I agree. I would recommend they at least get as far as to release the oppressive feelings. Rather than feeling all the oppressive feelings and then being like, okay, I’m going to stop now. Because then they would be left with all of it in there. So see it through to the end. And especially because you said the second and third time you felt way safer.
Pat: Yes.
Anne: Would you mind sharing the things you wrote about the colors or shapes? Did it surprise you what you ended up visualizing about your trauma? For me, when I do it, like one time it felt like concrete, and then it just fell out. Another time it was black ink that dripped out. I hope women just go with their gut with whatever they see.
Pat: Mine was pain. Pain in my neck or tightness in my gut, and it felt like my shoulders were high. They weren’t relaxed. Taking a deep breath was helpful, because I relaxed. And I noticed my shoulders drop. I noticed my wrist had shooting pains through it. It can be very small. It doesn’t have to speak loud. Wherever your gut leads you to whatever part of your body you start thinking of first, there’s a reason why.
So it’s almost like, okay, so why am I at that part of my body? Is there something there that feels different than the other side of my body? You know, is there something tight? Is there a shooting pain? Is it itchy? Am I holding it? Am I not rested or relaxed in that space? Many times when you’re not trained to be in your body.
Betrayal Meditation Helped Me Set Boundaries
Pat: When this is the first experience of being in your body, it could be very subtle. But go with your gut, your first inkling, and the first time you go to that space, just be inquisitive and allow it to come up. It doesn’t have to be work or hard to figure out what’s happening there.
Anne: It also doesn’t have to be crazy creative, right? If I said, did a color ever come up for you? And you were like, no, it never did. And then someone else was like, yeah, it was this weird green goopy thing. Either one is fine.
Pat: Absolutely.
Anne: In terms of listening to the same healing meditation for abuse survivors three times, by the end of the third time where you’re like, Whoa, I actually feel like I deserve safety way more than before I started .
Pat: A hundred percent, I had different visions in the workbook. On one exercise, the space in me wants to say that I am a human being, and I exist. You know, just the fact that I’m here. I deserve safety simply because I exist.
I don’t have to do anything, be anybody. And I don’t have to be productive, kind, compassionate or forgiving to deserve safety. I deserve it simply because I’m a human being and here. Because I have the right to be here and have my own thoughts, feelings, and emotions. Also, I have my own experiences and story, and I deserve the right to fill up space.
You know, so much in my life, I felt like I had to be invisible. I felt I didn’t even have a right to be in the body that I have.
Impact Of Meditation On Real Life
Pat: Even some boundaries that I’ve been setting are, hey, I deserve to have a right to my own emotions. Because I exist and I’m a human being. What I realized was that safety resides within me. By the end of the meditation, I felt stronger in my ability to set boundaries so that I could feel safe within myself.
Anne: Have you noticed your real life waking, interacting with people, moving through the world? Have you noticed a difference since you’ve been through the betrayal meditations?
Pat: Absolutely, my dad came down to visit this past weekend and asked some very personal questions. And I didn’t have to over explain myself. You know, just because he asked the question doesn’t mean I need to give an answer. And also with my own children, my adult children, you know, they’re used to a mom that continues to give and give and doesn’t expect anything. You know, doesn’t expect to get upset when they take something that isn’t theirs of mine.
You know, they’re used to a mom that will continue to do for them without any kind of reciprocation and relationship. So that’s shifted, because I have a right to exist. I’m a human being, and I have thoughts and feelings. And giving them the opportunity to meet me in relationship now. Because I’m a human being and have thoughts and feelings. That allows them to have a different kind of relationship with me. There are growing pains for sure.
And that’s where I lean into the groups and your coaches. It’s good, because I’m now seeing them asking me, how was your day mom? Or, hey, can I do the dishes for you? Or you want to go for a walk with the dog?
The Role Of Community In Healing
Pat: Instead of wanting me to do for them, there’s a desire to meet me in relationship. You know, the biggest surprise to me was that I had a deeper understanding of the fact that I’m a survivor. It was in my head, the idea that I was a survivor just because of my situation, but it dropped into my heart and into my body.
The understanding that I’m here, I’m alive, and I deserve safety. And I deserve relationship, and I deserve peace. I deserve a voice, to have emotion, and I have a right to be here. I don’t have to be invisible anymore. And I would like the podcast listeners to know that there’s hope and healing. The meditations are a truly empowering opportunity to see a positive shift. It’s all about your interior world, and it will help you heal the trauma in a whole different way.
Anne: That’s why I did it. Because with me, I talk about this all day long. So going inside through meditation, yoga, or prayer is so much more helpful to me at this point. But it was also more helpful to me from the beginning. Knowing how useful it’s been to me, I thought we needed to do these specific to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery population. Because using other meditations, they weren’t gender specific. And so I didn’t feel super safe.
And, there were other parts that made me feel uncomfortable, because it wasn’t specific to this type of abuse. So creating this group of meditations for emotional abuse, basically myself and all of our community members has given me a lot of joy.
Betrayal Meditation For My Life
Pat: And thank you for your work. You saved my life. Your work saved my life. I am so grateful to you, and I love that you took something and paid it forward. You have been invaluable to me. So thank you for these meditations! Your workshop has completely shifted my life. Thank you so much.
Anne: Thank you. Thank you to all the women who have listened and been part of the community, because I feel like when one of us learned something, we all learn it collectively. It feels like as women, we’re just becoming more and more healthy.
Pat: Yes.
Anne: And it’s exciting.
Pat: So exciting.
Anne: I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for you. It goes both ways. So thank you so much.
Pat: Thank you so much.
Lily’s Experience With Meditation
Anne: So now Lily, another victim of betrayal, will share. Welcome Lily. The Living Free Workshop has 13 different meditations. I want to talk about how you felt when you did the same meditation three times. Just like Pat. How did that help you?
Lily: Yes, when I listened to it, I was also going through a rough week in my divorce process. And I found it very grounding to review and do the visualization. And then actually to have the same visualization. So while I was going through all the turmoil on the outside. The meditation, visualization, and process being the same actually provided some grounding for me. To be able to stay steady through it.
With the chaos on the outside, I found some peace and calm on the inside. And actually, I think having the same meditation made that possible. I was surprised at how grounded I felt. When I came into this process, I didn’t know that I could get away, because my situation is difficult. My husband went after my son. He’s very destructive. This meditation helped me go, okay, I can do this. I can get through this. I deserve this.
Because my son has an anxiety disorder at this point. So he feeds off of my anxiety. What happened was when I was calmer, I was more grounded. He’s less anxious. So that was really helpful.
Changes In Behavior Post-Meditation
Anne: Did you find that after the healing meditation, you were acting differently or thinking differently in ways that were new to you? That you didn’t have to work to do or think about doing that just came naturally?
Lily: Yes, I can be far more present and attentive to my son and stay in the moment. After the meditation, my thoughts were much calmer. The rumination was much less. And as I did the meditation more than once, the ruminating got less and less. So it was a cumulative benefit of repeating the meditation.
Anne: A lot of women, when they know there’s a workbook, it’s like, what? Uh, that’s not meditation. Meditation is like laying down and relaxing. So the suggestion is to sit and have a pencil and fill this workbook out. How did you feel about the workbook?
Lily: I found the workbook very helpful during the Betrayal Trauma Recovery meditation. Because it helped me write down my answers as I went along, and it really helped me stay grounded and present to the meditation. Once the thoughts and ideas were on paper, I was able to let them go and be fully present to the next part of the meditation.
And the other piece that I appreciate about it is that afterwards, as I reflect back on the three times I did it. I had different answers to different questions. And that’s useful feedback for my trauma recovery going forward. Especially identifying my stuck points in areas where I have challenges and old traumas to return to in my healing journey.
Healing With Group Support
Lily: One of the hardest parts of this journey was getting started, believing I could get to safety. And I’ve been participating in Betrayal Trauma Recovery groups for a long time. They have been helpful in that, they can give individualized coaching on my particular issues, and also hear other women’s situations and listen to the coaching they’re getting.
That also gives me lots of ideas on what I can implement in my own life. And what I appreciated about the healing meditation was that I used it to focus inwards on my heart and heal emotional abuse. And the things inside of me, and having a tool to examine it, process it and release it, really helps me take that next step.
The meditation works with the group, in that the group gives me the strategies, the ideas, and the actions to take. And then the meditation gives me the grounding, calmness, ability, strength, and clarity to take the steps. That I’m learning in group. So they work well together.
Anne: I am so glad to hear that. That’s exactly what I intended was for all of these resources to work together. And before we started recording, you mentioned that The Living Free Workshop also helped you. And it had helped you change the way you perceive him.
Lily: Yes, the graphic in Living Free of the circle of my life and all the things that I’m excited about going forward. The things that I’m rediscovering about myself, the fact that I love to sing, love music, I love to decorate.
Creating A Safe Space Through Meditation
Lily: All the things that make me feel alive and are life giving for me that I lost somewhere in this marriage. I’m rediscovering about myself to make that place a bigger part of my life. And through meditation relegate the emotional abuser to the periphery of it.
Anne: It’s cool, because on my own journey of healing. I’m just adding on these layers of healing and then creating the workshop with this meditation to help other women do it. It’s like so exciting that we’re all making so much progress. I love it. And I’ve only progressed as far as I am right now. And hopefully tomorrow, I’ll progress a little more. But also knowing that the things I produce, the content, the workshop and the strategies, are actually helpful.
Women are like, I felt better and could do it. It makes me so happy, because forever I went through the mess of pornography addiction recovery, which always made me feel worse. And I was just cycled through abuse over and over, or even couple therapy. I’m so proud of the stuff I create and share, because I feel like it’s working.
Lily: I agree, because I went through that cyclone, whatever that was, of codependency recovery and therapy. Yeah, it made me feel worse too. I couldn’t believe my pain, anger, and response to the heinous actions. The deceit was ignored and I was supposed to have all kinds of sympathy for this dude who had done it. And why am I shaming him? Oh, to have him be the center of attention as the identified patient. Like, wait a second, what about the collateral damage here?
All Betrayal Trauma Recovery Services Work Together
Lily: You know, it was so frustrating. I’ve been in your group for a long time. To see women come in, and not have to go through the meat grinder of the codependency recovery that I had to go through. So to see women come into your group now and get the right tools, the right advice, the right frame that this is abuse. I’m seeing them recover quicker. They’re getting through the process faster.
They aren’t getting dragged through the same therapy trauma I got dragged through. and their children aren’t getting dragged through the same trauma. And I’m grateful for that. Because of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I’ve recovered now, and he hasn’t changed one iota, and I’m fine. And my kid’s fine. I discovered your podcast. It came up on the algorithm and then came to group and bit by bit, take the small steps.
Because for example, I was resistant to go no contact, because then I’m not going to know what he’s doing, and going no contact was the best thing for me. The coaches really walked with me through my process, my timing, and my reservations. Group upon group, and when I finally accomplished it, they were celebrating with me. Nobody pushed me. And I appreciated that. Yeah, It’s been life changing for me.
I honestly don’t know where I’d be. I just want to thank you for doing this, because Betrayal Trauma Recovery has just saved me, saved my brain.
Initial Hesitations In Using Meditation To Heal From Betrayal
Anne: The last betrayal survivor. Her name is Sammy, is talking about her experience. I want to pause here to tell you the details of The Living Free Workshop. In addition to covering emotional safety strategies, I wrote and edited, revived, and tested all the meditations in it. It includes 13 meditations, and they are all amazing. Each meditation will gift you something that you need. Like love or support or peace.
It is a specifically designed meditation for women who’ve experienced betrayal. Even though the beginning of each meditation is similar. There’s a topic specific visualization in each meditation. Women find it helpful. I’ve invited Sammy, another member of our community, to share her experience with the meditations today. Before you even listened to it one time, what were your expectations?
Sammy: I typically shied away from meditation because I’m coming from a Christian base. And I was afraid of I don’t know, new age meditations, for lack of a better definition. So I kept reading scripture prayer and my own meditation in communing with God so to speak. But I thought, well, this meditation is coming from a safe source. I’m open to this. I’ll see what I think. Oh, yes, a BTR meditation is safe, fine, and I always know that. Say I started, I can just stop.
I hadn’t imagined meditations where you would stop and kind of journal. At the same time, I thought, I’m going to go with what they say to do and see where it leads.
Anne: I bet that adventurous attitude has gotten you far in your life. Where did you hear about the Living Free Workshop.
Anne: Talk about that first time you went through it.
First Experience With BTR Meditation
Anne: What did you think?
Sammy: It was in the middle of a day, which is unlike me. I normally would save this for either first thing in the morning or evening or bedtime. But I wanted to get started right away, and I knew I had a limited amount of time. I went into a room where I have a prayer area, and I just decided to follow exactly what it said to do. The first thing that came to mind actually surprised me. It took me back in my childhood, and I really didn’t think I’d go there.
So I just went with it. I mean, it makes sense. You know, that’s where some of my fears and lack of healthy coping mechanisms began. I relived it, but it felt safe at the same time. I had plenty to write about, where it would say stop and write. The first part about obstructions is knowing you deserve safety.
And then especially under the part where it talks about if the obstructions could speak, what would they say? I loved some of your prompts that helped get me going. I had no problem expanding. Experiencing that early life situation, I know I didn’t feel I deserved safety then, but I’m absolutely resolute that I deserve it now. I carry a lot of my physical stress in my jaw area, my neck and my shoulders.
I started that meditation aware that everything felt really, really tight. By the end of the meditation, I had noticeable, significant relaxing in those muscle areas. That was so encouraging in and of itself.
Continuous Healing
Sammy: I’m going to redo this many times. I have many different things to process in my brain, soul and heart. So I don’t try to force it, just whatever comes up comes up during the meditation. I want to be healed from emotional abuse. I know my Savior wants me to be healed. And He can work through many different things. And this to me feels like a wonderful inexpensive, almost a version of EMDR. Not even all that time consuming avenue that I can do any time.
I probably have done it five more times as recently as this morning. Every single time I listen to it, I hear something I didn’t hear the last time. And it’s usually something you’re saying because it’s so filled with such good nurturing words, information and message. Yeah. I just hear something different every time that makes it deeper and more profound, more meaningful.
One thing that has not changed every time I’ve done it is that place I go to in my mind, where I have total safety. All the sensations around me, and everything makes me have that feeling. That has stayed the same. I’m just going deeper and deeper in relaxing. It’s helped me be more mindful and relax. The other thing is that each time there are about three to five different parts of trauma that I’ve processed.
Each time they come up in a thought, they’re not as powerful. The power of their grip on me is lessening and lessening.
Anne: Yeah, I felt that way too. The more I meditated, it didn’t have the power it had when I was just going about my day.
Sammy: And it’s less than it was the time before.
Healing Meditation For Betrayal Survivors: Light & Safety
Sammy: It’s given me such a strong visual of that light that you talk about. I’ve experienced that in my mind’s eye. One time in particular, many years ago, when I wasn’t sure where I stood. I prayed for a sign that God had revealed to me that he is real. And it came in that form in a half awake, calm, relaxed state. It was the most beautiful, brilliant, warm, but not too hot, light and warmth. I’ve never experienced anything like that.
One time recently, a real blip of it. I didn’t ask for it. It just came. Every time you talk about that, in the healing meditations I go to that place, and it just feels so real. Still everything I need. I love imagining that light taking this pain and this trauma and just obliterating it. That helps me so much. And the more I do it, the more I keep remembering in real moments to try to do that. And then that force field that you talk about. I imagine like a circle around my whole body.
It’s an invisible one to everybody else, but it’s like my buffer and my shield, and that’s Jesus surrounding me. And specifically how you brought in angels. That’s always been something so important to me. I could go on forever about how Betrayal Trauma Recovery is changing my life.
Community Support & Gratitude
Sammy: I can’t even thank you enough, because I know it all began with you.
Anne: Well, thank you. Because without your support and all the women who have been supportive, listening to the podcast. And pushing that follow button, which helps the algorithm, donating so that I could keep going. Using the services and telling people how amazing they are. Without the community helping me, there’s no way I could still do this. This is my life’s mission, and I thank you.
Thank you, thank you for being here for me, so that I can continue to do this. I appreciate you so much. If you’re interested in doing the healing meditation for abuse survivors, click on this link, The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop.
Divorce And Emotional Abuse – Felicia Checks In 9 Months Later
Sep 09, 2025
Divorce isn’t just paperwork—it’s a complex emotional and logistical process that’s almost impossible to navigate alone. Divorce and emotional abuse go hand-in-hand. If you’re struggling after divorce, the right support can make all the difference.
If you’re a woman going through the pain of a divorce, you don’t have to go through it alone. We are here to help with three easy-to-use resources that can support you as you heal and get back on your feet. Plus, you can access all of them online from anywhere.
1. The Right Information
Did you know that many women are/were emotionally abused to the point that it resulted in divorce. But they blamed themselves (not knowing it was emotional abuse)??
Do you feel confused by your soon-to-ex’s behavior? Does he blame you for his affair or for the divorce? Are you questioning your own reality and emotions? Our Free Emotional Abuse Quiz can help you identify what actually happened.
By understanding the true cause of the divorce, you can start making quick forward progress toward healing.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women understand emotional abuse, manipulation, and recovery after betrayal. Most episodes feature a woman sharing her story. Listening to these stories can help you feel seen, give you clarity, and show you actionable next steps for your own healing.
2. The Right Support
Healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in a community of women who truly understand what you’re going through. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are designed to offer just that.
Picture joining a support session from your couch, your kitchen, or even your car. First, you meet a group of kind women who understand what you’re going through, because they’ve been through tough times too.
Hearing other women share their stories helps you feel understood. When you share your story, you get support and advice instead of judgment. Plus, these daily sessions are easy to join and won’t cost too much. There are more than 21 sessions every week, so it’s easy to find one that works for you. The women running the sessions have been through similar experiences, so they know how to provide the support you need.
3. The Right Strategy For Healing
Healing from divorce requires more than information and support—it takes strategy to achieve your goals. That’s where the Living Free Workshop gives you simple steps to protect your emotions and mind. Whether you’re still married, separated, or already divorced, this workshop can help. You’ll learn easy tools to understand your ex-husband’s actions and figure out what he might do next.
This workshop has 65 short video lessons, and each one is only about 3 minutes long. Plus, it comes with a free, printable workbook. And 13 Meditations. You’ll learn simple techniques to help you escape his chaos and control. With easy steps and clear instructions, you’ll know exactly what to do next.
Transcript: Divorce And Emotional Abuse
Anne: Everyone knows divorce isn’t just paperwork. It’s a complex emotional and logistical process that’s almost impossible to navigate alone. Divorce and emotional abuse go hand in hand. So if you’re struggling after divorce, or making the decision to divorce, the right support can make all the difference.
Welcome back, Felicia.
Felicia: Thank you so much.
Felicia’s Community Struggles
Anne: When I interviewed you five months ago, you felt rightfully very sad and frustrated. Because your community had turned against you, and you felt alone because of divorce and emotional abuse. Can you talk about what’s happened in the months since you came on the podcast?
Felicia: At the time I was about to get a divorce. I thought my whole community supported me. So it was like the bottom dropped out when I got the divorce, and my ex managed to turn everybody against me. I had people calling me and telling me how awful I was. And I said before it was not happy for me to meet someone in the grocery store.
It felt like, how could I be right and all these people be wrong? I felt like I had been in a safe place, like a good place when I got the divorce. I felt really healthy. And then suddenly I started to question my health, and in Christianity, you learn you can’t be the only right person.
So you need your community to help tell you if you’re wrong. If everybody says you’re wrong, you probably are. And that just wasn’t the case. I had to find where I was and cheer myself on. Because integrity is when you are right and have to stand alone. And that’s actually what I was doing.
Anne: During our last interview, you were really struggling. What changed?
The Role Of Meditation In Healing
Felicia: I did the Betrayal Trauma Meditations in The Living Free Workshop, and it was just … like I’m already traumatized. Why do I need to work so hard? The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Meditations give me truth that I think about and think about. Meditate on that. It’s true things about me, believing myself and regaining confidence. And that’s what I’ve done. I have my confidence back.
I feel like my brain is healthy for the first time in a long time. I’ve have community now. I attribute a lot of the confidence I have from the Meditation Workshop and the truth. It led me to be my own best friend, know the truth about myself. And stop second guessing myself based on how everybody’s treating me. I first started playing the meditations while I went on a walk, and I would just think about the meditations as I walked.
They were all centered around the truth about who I am as a person. And they helped me. Because I needed the truth about who I am in the meditations. And I didn’t need to dig and try to change. It was right there for me.
That women don’t need to change or be anything different. Who they are right now is good enough, is exactly who they need to be.
Felicia: Women need to learn about how beautiful they already are. The only thing that needs to change is for them to realize the truth about themselves. Last time we talked, I wasn’t that spunky about finding new friends. Because I was still so upset that my other friends dropped me, and dealing with divorce and emotional abuse.
Finding Support During Divorce And Emotional Abuse
Felicia: And I just figured, why find new ones, it’s going to be less real? But what happened is I just kept going to this church, and it’s really small. And they’re like older women. Lately, I needed help legally, because I’m fighting against my ex. I needed some people to write letters. And I’ve been going there a year now. They know what’s happened to me, and they’re just for me.
Everything I want to do, they want to back me up on, and they have seen me be a mom. And they think I’m really good. And it wasn’t until I needed these letters written that I realized I have so many people that are helping me at a time that I really need it. Whereas all my friends have always been out of convenience, and then conveniently dropped off when I needed help. They weren’t helping when I went through divorce.
I realized I still had lifelong friends that I hadn’t kept up with. And now I’m realizing how many people I have. But more importantly, the depth of support they’ve brought me.
Anne: When I interviewed you nine months ago, you thought you had no one. But, I’m gonna restate here and see if I’m hearing you correctly. Number one, You didn’t realize there were more people who supported you than you thought, but also maybe number two, that many of those people you mourned their loss.
Felicia: Yeah, I was in a time when you’re believing two realities. I know everyone said they’re not your real friends. But they felt so real, and then when the rubber hit the road, they weren’t actually there at all.
Enemies Moved!
Felicia: I was mad. I wish they hadn’t left me, and supported my ex, who was abusive. They knew he was abusive, inauthentic, and still left me. I don’t want friends like that, but I wanted friends like that. They were my friends, now I fully realize how unfriendly they were. They were my enemies. I call them my enemies now, because they were mean to me when I thought I had their support. And I was dealing with divorce and emotional abuse, it was all so heavy.
So now I’m fully realizing who they were. I guess, because I fully realized who I am and how I’ve only been trying to do the right thing. Not only did I not do anything wrong, I’ve been trying to do everything right. And found myself, and I don’t want them in my life. And they just happened to be moving out of town now, which is awesome. I can’t believe that happened.
Anne: That is awesome. I had a neighbor I did not like, and I actually put on my miracle board, which is like a vision board, that they move. I wrote on there that this family moves, and I walked out of my house one day. The for sale sign was in their front yard. And I was like, yes!
Felicia: I know, that’s how I feel. It was actually my pastor’s wife, like my best friend, who chewed me out and like swore at me on the phone. On the way to this interview, I just drove by your house and the for sale was at the end of her lane, just like you said, and I was like, YES!
Anne: Just now? You just saw it?
Legal Battles & Emotional Struggles
Felicia: Yes, I just saw it now. Yes, I just found out about all these people moving last week. I found out about all three of them moving on the same week.
Anne: That is awesome. I’m so happy for you.
Felicia: Yeah, I’m like, I can go to the store now. And I have my local church all to myself without all these hateful people around me. Someone has told me they’re afraid of me, and that’s why they’re leaving. It’s this spiritual thing, but honest to goodness, I became healthy, and now I found out they were gone.
Anne: So you’re feeling good, which is awesome. That’s the benefit of living free. Even when you’re still in a tough situation, you can start feeling peace inside. So you’ve struggled with his legal and emotional abuse during divorce. Right after the divorce, he started suing you for all sorts of things.
Felicia: Yes, since the divorce, he immediately started legal pursuit, and it was hard because his abuse was always hidden. And he got more aggressive, so my family got to see who he really was, for themselves. But the legal pursuit has been really hard. Before I did the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, I tried to give him what he wanted so that he would leave me alone. And then I found out that you don’t give an abuser what they want, so they’ll leave you alone.
They’re bullies, and they’re always gonna just make it worse. It has escalated to the point where he’s telling lies in court under oath about me.
Finding Strength To Withstand Emotional Abuse While Dealing With Divorce
Felicia: But what’s good about it is that anytime we’ve had a hearing and a trial is coming up, the judge has ruled in my favor. And I was just overlooking that because I was so scared and I feel so powerless. But the judge surprised me this last time and ruled that we keep the child support the same. I thought he was going to drop it, and then my lawyer told me, do what’s best for your family, and that’s all you need to do.
And when the judge asks you why you did something, you can tell him that you actually thought it was what was best for your family. And it was that statement that started to make me feel free again, because I was like, why do I need a lawyer to tell me to do what’s right for my family? Why did I not feel like I could do that?
But in this legal battle, I honestly felt like I don’t even know if I can do what’s right for my family. Because of the gaslighting to where they make you question whether you’re doing something right. And when my lawyer said that, it made me realize, yeah, I can do what’s right for my family. And then the excuse I will give will be that I thought it was right for my family.
Anne: That’s exactly what it was. You are trying to do the right thing. They are not trying to do the right thing. I’m so happy to hear that you have a good attorney and had a good ruling. That is rare when you’re dealing with divorcing an emotional abuser.
The Path To Healing & Safety
Anne: Did you think nine months ago that you would feel the way you feel now?
Felicia: Months ago, you told me it would get better, and you encouraged me to the point that I was like, oh my word. We could do an interview again, and I could see if I could heal. I had a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach talk to me at the beginning and say, what do you want? I actually said, I want to be a better mom and stop yelling at my kids. And I felt like that was totally unrelated to what I was going through. She said, that’s what’s going to happen then.
And she started asking me, what do you want here? What do you want there? And I wanted these healthy things, she said, you’ll get those healthy things. And now? I’ve tried and tried over the last months, plus the whole time I’ve been divorced. I’ve been like, where is my healing? I still felt traumatized by the emotional abuse. And what surprised me the most was that I was just striving. And suddenly it just came.
I attributed it to God, but when I went on Facebook, in a healing from trauma group, and shared that God healed me. They said, would you please put trigger warning, religion? And I was like, no, it wasn’t religion at all. Like, none of the religion healed me. God healed me. And bam, I just want people to be encouraged that you can be trying to heal, trying to heal. And then suddenly it will come.
The Power Of Validation & Safety
Anne: The healing comes when we’re validated, and when we’re safe. The safety is the healing. So maybe something to consider is that the reason why you healed is because you learned safety strategies. You learned how to protect yourself, and over time you got more and more safe from the emotional abuse. Like the judge ruling in your favor. That is instant healing.
Felicia: Yeah.
Anne: Justice is a form of instant healing. If your ex moves to a different state and never talked to you again. That is instant healing.
Felicia: Oh my word, yeah.
Anne: People who say you need to learn how to deal with it. You just need to learn blah, blah, blah. I’m like, no, she just needs to not be abused anymore.
Felicia: Yes.
Anne: She needs to be in a safe place. And when you’re in safety, healing happens. I saw that same thing. And I struggled with post divorce abuse for eight years. I lost a court case, and then I was like, I’ve got to figure this out. I need strategies. That’s when I discovered the Living Free message strategies. It’s also when I wrote the meditations for myself. I did the meditations myself, then used the Living Free strategies and delivered my kids.
Healing From Emotional Abuse With Workshops & Dance
Anne: My ex basically signed the kids away out of court. And when they brought me safety, and then I replicated that with other victims. And they told me how amazing these strategies were. Once I knew they worked for everyone, not just for me, I wrote them in the Living Free Workshop so that everyone could learn them. He signed the kids away. And I was instantly healed.
Instant, because we’re not crazy. There’s nothing wrong with us. Our husbands abuse us. For women listening, if they’re like, that’s great, but that doesn’t help that it just comes. What am I supposed to do in the meantime, right? Let’s talk about this. Things that you did in the meantime, you enrolled in Living Free. You did the Meditations. Can you talk about the dance class?
Felicia: It’s actually an app, and I’m just dancing every day. I always wanted to dance through my pregnancies and stuff because it’s so healthy. But I’ve never danced. So I just wanted to learn the different types of dancing, and I try to dance for 10 minutes a day. Everything, little by little, is helping. I’m also on depression medication. So part of me wants to be like, Oh, it’s just that, but no, I’ve been on depression medication before. It’s not that.
Actually, you know what I think happened? My ex always wanted me to think everything was me. It was all me. I had to change and become better. I talked in our last episode about how I thought I was a monster when I got married. And I always thought everything was my fault, and that wasn’t true. That was because of emotional abuse that I felt this way.
Understanding Exploitative Behavior
Felicia: That abuse mindset, where everything’s my fault, and it’s all because of me. Is what he wants me to think. And that’s what he still wants me to think. But the good thing is, the healthier I became, the more distant we became. And that’s exactly what’s happening now. I found myself divorced from the emotional abuse. So yeah, things are super hard still, the abuse is rampant. We have a trial coming up, but there is something about focusing on the truth.
Anne: In the Living Free Workshop, it talks about how these men are exploitative. They want to exploit you, they don’t want you to go away. They want you close, so they can exploit you for energy. Your ex loves to play the victim in court right now. “She’s ruining me. She’s doing this.” And he feels like court is a great place to showcase how you’ve wronged him. But if you had wronged him, wouldn’t he want to be away from you?
That’s how we can tell the victims from the perpetrators. After divorce and emotional abuse, victims desperately want to be away from them. We don’t ever have to talk again. I don’t want to have anything to do with you. And the abusers are the ones who are like, wait, I can’t exploit her anymore. What excuse can I use to message her? Oh, maybe I left my rock collection at her house, which they never cared about before, ever, ever.
And then suddenly they’re like, this is the most important thing to me. And you took it from me when they could have just picked it up. So that exploitative character keeps them around.
Living Free Strategies
Anne: So the Living Free strategies are how to be unexploitable. Which does escalate them for a second. Because they’re like, wait, wait, wait. I was using her for this, and now I can’t use her anymore. But then eventually, there’s nothing for them to hold on to.
Felicia: I am still waiting for him to finally de-escalate. But, yeah, I use the Living Free strategies exclusively. That’s the only thing I use to communicate with him. It was life changing. I only use those because they are so helpful. I go back to them. Let’s see, how should I respond to this right now? And it is helpful.
Anne: Well, with your dancing, the meditations, living free and message strategies, I’m so happy to hear. That even though it’s still hard, you are feeling better from the abuse. Felicia, thanks for coming back on and giving us an update.
Felicia: Thank you so much.
This is Why You’re Not Codependent – Felicia’s Story
Sep 02, 2025
Felicia spent years wondering if she was codependent. She didn’t realize she was experiencing emotional and psychological abuse. If you’re wondering if you’re codependent. Hopefully Felicia’s story can help you see why you’re not codependent.
Often, Betrayal Trauma victims have little to no control over their own bodies, privacy, finances, and other aspects of their lives. This leads many women to engage in safety-seeking behaviors. She’s trying to protect herself, which is good! Some people want to put these healthy behaviors in a negative light. They call her codependent, misleading her.
They tell her to blame herself: “What have YOU done to contribute to the problem?” This wrong advice helps the abuser continue to harm her. It also makes it harder for the victim to set healthy boundaries.
But What If I Am Actually Codependent?
Many women find that after they create distance between herself and emotional and psychological abuse, what they thought were “character flaws” often fade away. These traits were really healthy resistance to abuse. They helped her protect herself. She’s not codependent.
Transcript: This is Why You’re Not Codependent
Anne: I have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Felicia, on today’s episode. Welcome, Felicia.
Felicia: Thank you.
Anne: I’m so grateful you’re sharing your story with us. We’re going to be addressing the label of codependent. But let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how he seemed to you at first?
Felicia: We met at a Bible college and the first thing that I asked is, Could I use his book? Because I didn’t want to buy the professor’s book. He said, Oh, this is a wonderful book. I’ll buy it for you. I want to tell you my intentions are not to hit on you or to flirt with you. So I love that he was so straightforward and didn’t have any other intentions.
We became friends because I believed that he said what he meant. We fell in love, but there was no flirting, we didn’t have the same friends. So I was like, this is really weird, but I really, really like you. But it’s not like this desperate feeling, and that’s how we started off.
Felicia: It was a long distance relationship at first.
Questioning His Intentions
Anne: Looking back, do you think that he was being honest or do you think he really did have intentions to have a relationship with you?
Felicia: I think he just told me what I wanted to hear. I was like, it’s not this desperate feeling. And he was like, me either. So let’s not date right away. I thought we would date. Because we both just told each other we liked each other.
It was the relationship I thought I wanted at first. Except for lack of an emotional side to it. But yeah looking back, I think he just is really good at picking up on what people want to hear. Then filling that in.
Anne: Like low key. Hey, we’re just friends. Type grooming.
Anne: How did it transition into dating?
Felicia: I was just leaving the area. He said, yeah, let’s just do emails and phone calls. He said, I want you to pray about this for one week, that we should be boyfriend and girlfriend. I was just kind of disappointed that there wasn’t this emotional connection. I didn’t have any boyfriends through life to speak of. He said I want you to think about what you need in a relationship. Then we dated long distance still just talking on the phone.
Crossing Boundaries, Starting The Label Of Codependent
Felicia: It wasn’t gooey at all. They were like really good conversations. That to me was the perfect part of our relationship. Very good conversations about how we felt and thought. They weren’t long and drawn out. It was just fun to talk to him and then we started setting boundaries.
He said, We’re probably going to pursue each other for marriage. Also, I think that I should come and get you. He was in Georgia and wanted to come to Idaho to get me. He said we should live in the same community if we’re going to see if we’re fit for marriage. We laid down physical boundaries, and I was like, okay, cool. I definitely don’t want to get over involved physically before I’m married. He said he needed these boundaries for himself.
But as soon as we saw each other, we started crossing the boundaries that we had laid. It didn’t feel good. I didn’t like it. By the time we were back to our destination, where we were going to live in the same town. I was kind of like, what did I get into? And that was when we were dating. We weren’t even engaged yet. We got engaged several months later and married the next year.
Anne: So at this time, you’re thinking, all that stuff we talked about. The boundaries that we set up, he didn’t adhere to any of them. Do you feel like you were coerced into it? He’s already setting you up to be responsible for him not keeping the boundary, and you identifying as codependent.
Engagement
Felicia: Yeah, I thought it was sinning. And he was like, we can pray for peace and forgiveness. Because Jesus will give us that. It would feel so good and amazing and freeing, then within hours a day or whatever later, we’d be at it again. He would say that I was seducing him. Which I would feel really bad about. So I just thought I was bad. And we went to our family and our church and told them, we’re in sin.
We’re not having it, but we’re breaking boundaries. And we tried to get help, and I thought, we just can’t resist each other. So then when we got engaged, I thought, let’s just get married right away. At least we have that connection.
Early Marriage Struggles
Felicia: But when we got married, it immediately stopped. We didn’t have a connection. We had a really bad beginning of marriage, no honeymoon spot, we would fight. I thought, Oh, it’s because we were sinful before. But I married thinking I was pure and it was confusing. How did we struggle so bad before marriage? Now that we’re married, it immediately stopped.
Anne: He’s basically saying, I’m so attracted to you that I cannot keep my hands off you. So even though I’ve set these boundaries, it’s impossible to keep them. Because I’m so attracted to you. Don’t worry about it because we can just call on Jesus, he understands and we’ll both be fine. We can repent and yet he never actually repents because he keeps doing it.
Then you get married and then he’s just not attracted to you anymore, apparently. Because now it’s very easy for him to avoid physical contact. Is that what I’m hearing?
Felicia: You said it all right. He made a lot of excuses. So that period of the marriage lasted 12 years. I lived in like a giant fog of why our intimate life had never been ignited once we got married.
Emotional Disconnect
Felicia: It was kind of the big red flag, but emotionally we didn’t connect. We had a really bad honeymoon and after that he would say things like, it is just emotional for me. So if we’re not connected, I don’t want to have it with you. Things like that, that made me feel like, well, I can’t force him.
Over 12 years, I mean, we started having kids together. My drive waned, so it was kind of like, well, it’s no big deal now. But I would ask things like, why he thought it was like that. And one time he just said, he was going through medical school so it was so strenuous. I just looked up things and thought, I bet he’s too busy.
Anne: He was using any excuse he could get his hands on. Anything that he heard, maybe women are like, Oh, I’m not emotionally connected so I don’t want to have it. Which was not his case. Because I’m guessing we’re going to find out real soon that he’s having it with someone else. But he’s just trying to grab hold of any excuse he can. To groom you into thinking it’s your fault that he’s not interested.
When did you find out about the explicit materials use or the infidelity?
Discovering The Truth
Felicia: After twelve years of marriage. So it was in twenty, twenty one. I think it was the Holy Spirit coming into my intuition, cause I was just like, something is wrong. For some reason it’s bothering me more now, and I’m not gonna let it stop bothering me. I had gone to lots of counseling over the years, and never really found a problem with me.
I went through a major lifestyle program, like residential treatment program for depression. That always owned up to being postpartum depressed and seasonal depression and all this stuff. Finally was like, you know what? It’s my marriage.
Then I went to counseling and being like, it’s my marriage, help me. But at this point in time, I couldn’t sleep. I was just crying all the time. I was pregnant with our fourth kid, but I was like, this is not the same thing as pregnancy hormones. This is something deeper.
So I just started digging and finding it on his device and I was like, the kids could have found this.
You got to make sure that this doesn’t pop up on your computer screen. And he’s like, yeah, you’re right. That’s really bad. I’ll make sure I don’t leave that up anymore. But then I dug and dug and dug and kept saying, tell me the whole truth. Because I need to know that I know everything, because I’m finding images on his device.
Anne: You’re finding lots of exploitative material and he’s giving excuses or saying, I don’t know.
Felicia: Just kind of acting like he used a thing to watch movies. It would just pop up so he would just exit back out, you know? That’s all it is.
Gaslighting & Blame
Felicia: One thing that he’d never done is ever had a big problem he’d been sorry about. I’d had like, a number of problems but he’d never been like, you know what, here’s this big issue or problem. I feel like In marriages two people usually have problems, but in our marriage, it was always just me.
Anne: Tell me more about that. Was it like, Oh, I have a problem with my friend, for example. Or I have a problem because I’m sick. Or was it like, you mean just like general everyday problems that humans have? Like he didn’t have any of these regular problems.
Felicia: He didn’t have regular problems. I would be like, do you think you’re a sinner? And he’s like, oh yeah, of course I’m a sinner. But he never had any confession of like, you know what, I feel really bad about this. He didn’t actually even say sorry, so I didn’t learn about gaslighting until much later. But If I came to him with, like, this makes me feel bad, when this happens. It would turn into, like, you don’t know how hard it is to have a depressed wife.
Emotional Abuse
Felicia: Or, he was now in medical residency, so he’s like, I think you have ADD. So I actually went to my own doctor saying, like, I think I might have ADD. And my doctor was like, No, you don’t have ADD at all. He didn’t even seem like he had problems. I was like, I guess he’s this amazing person, I guess I’m just a monster. I decided when I got married that I was a monster and I never knew that I was. When we ever had a problem, it would go back to, I bet he hasn’t forgiven me.
For how badly I treated him when we were first married. That’s what I decided it was, I just treated him really bad.
He’s like a super awesome guy. And he just can’t forgive me because he’s so sensitive. I hurt him that bad. He never had any offerings for why our marriage sucked. So I would offer things.
Anne: But he wouldn’t.
Felicia: Yeah, he would never.
Anne: Abusers have a very distinct pattern. They only start their story after the real victim has started to resist the abuse. So the beginning of your marriage, you’re being abused and you’re trying to resist this abuse.
He starts the story with like, everything was fine. Nothing was wrong. Suddenly she started treating me really bad rather than saying, I actually coerced her. And made her seem like I was super attracted to her. And then we got married and I completely ignored her and didn’t have it with her at all.
Realizing The Extent Of Abuse
Anne: And I was a complete jerk, and then she was trying to resist me being terrible. If they started the story there, it would make sense. But instead they’re like, “Yeah, everything was fine.” We got married. I thought our marriage was great. They don’t tell people I was refusing to have it with her. I was giving her the impression I wasn’t into to her.
So then when people hear his side of the story. They’re like, Wow, she just out of the blue is like super mad at you.
Felicia: The other thing is there’s this common, I don’t know if that’s like a religious thing or whatever. But where like the man’s passive and the woman pushes him to not be passive. And that pushing to not be passive is really bad. That’s what I did. I was like, you know what, that was really bad that I pushed him to not be passive.
I would let myself get all enraged at his passiveness. But looking back, it was like this passive aggression that he knew he was doing. And like, silent treatments, he’s very argumentative. Somehow he would like, shut down right when I ignited. Anyway, so I learned to like, turn that off. And stop pushing him, especially so that we could have children.
Cause he said, we can’t have children until I stop this aggression and our marriage gets better. So I like became someone who just swallowed everything. Now I go back and I’m seeing there was a beautiful woman inside of me clawing. Saying, this is wrong. Something is completely messed it up and I disagree. And I’m not just going to go along with it.
Confronting The Truth
Felicia: That’s what happened. I became someone who just went along with stuff. I didn’t I didn’t talk to him very much at all because he was just going to disagree. We were going to have an argument so I just listened to him. He would just go on and on and on and on. He was a like a monologue-er. That’s where we were when I found it.
I finally said I have to know everything. And he was like, oh, no, you know everything. And I said, okay, I’m never gonna talk to you about this again. I’m gonna ask you one more time. Do I know everything? Have you told me the whole truth about this exploitative materials use that I keep finding? And he said, yes. So I said, okay, I’m never going to talk about it again.
I wrote him an email, because I couldn’t sleep at night. And I was like, I know that there’s something wrong. I said that either Satan’s tormenting me. Or the Holy Spirit’s trying to communicate something to me. And that’s when he said, okay, let’s talk. That’s when he took me on a walk, and we dropped the kids off.
Then he told me the whole truth about the previous 12 years. And how he’d watched this off and on. He said it was like, good exploitative material, it wasn’t violent, or whatever. He said he’d done that off and on for 12 years, actually his whole life.
Keeping It Secret
Anne: I feel like when they give details, you know that that’s the thing that they’re lying about. Because, why do you need to say that? A lot of times they do this fake honesty where they’re like, this is the whole truth. I highly doubt that it was. Do you feel the same way?
Felicia: I feel the same way. I mean, I felt peace for a little bit. I was like, you know what, our marriage is totally gonna work now. Because we have honesty. But the relationship was just as broken as it ever had been.
Anne: At this point where you’re like, okay, he’s told me the “whole truth.” So I’m not really going to bring it up again. Did he go to therapy? Was he just like, okay, now that I’ve told you the whole truth, I’m never going to do it again.
Felicia: I started bringing it up again. So I never decided, you know what, I’m not going to bring it up again. I did that email, and then he told me the whole truth, and then I just took the liberty to put the relationship into his hands. And be like, give me a reason for all of this. Because It was just such big thing. That our whole marriage was.
I’m constantly like, How do two people find each other like this, fall in love. Then it becomes what it is? It never made sense. I walked around meeting people, older women, being like, Can we talk? Thinking that they would be like, my mentor and help me find out. But it was me that needed to find out the truth.
Realization About Emotional Abuse
Felicia: No one else knew. When I finally found out, I was like, I feel like this is the reason for our whole entire relationship. And then that’s when I realized about covert emotional abuse and covert narcissism. One, when you watch this stuff, you become less emotionally attentive and able.
Anne: I’ve started seeing you become less interested instead of “blaming” the use. It’s like when you use you don’t have the desire to be intimate with people anymore. It’s not like it makes you that way. You just don’t care anymore. Because I think if we say, if you view it, then your brain gets shut off. It sort of takes the choice away.
We have to recognize that they could still say, wait a minute, this is hurting my wife, this is hurting me. This is hurting my family. I don’t want to do this anymore, but they just don’t have the desire to make anything different.
Felicia: He did start into therapy. He of course he had problems with his counselor. And didn’t think it was working. So he wanted to, stop. I think he’d like jumped around. Needed to find like the perfect therapy. But he found his own therapy and like his own books that he thought he should read. I actually thought that sources that he found were very good and should have been helpful.
Husband Blames Me For Being Codependent
Felicia: But our relationship was not getting any better. One thing that bothered him as I started to say that he needed to take all the responsibility for the pathology in our marriage. I was like you need to take all the responsibility for that. Because along the way, I had been taking responsibility for each bad thing that I thought I did.
If he brought something up, I would be like, you know what, you’re right. And I would try to change. But he never had, then I was like, well now you have to take the responsibility for the whole pathology. He took that to mean I was blaming all of our marital problems on him. And he’s like, this is just too much. This is just too much pressure.
Felicia: Exactly, I know. I’m like, Oh my gosh, you have no idea what I’ve been putting on my shoulders this whole time.
Anne: Also, it was 100 percent his fault. So, what’s the problem? Literally was 100 percent his fault.
Felicia: He wants to back up until the original in a marriage, it takes two people to make it work. So like, that’s what I had gone by. And I had tried to be the person to stand up and say, I’m going to do my part. Then after he completely has a secret for over a decade, that I never found out about.
That I couldn’t know about, now all of a sudden I’m like, this is your fault. If he really felt sorry he would have been like, you’re totally right, it’s all my fault.
Gaslighting & Divorce
Felicia: But instead he’s like, oh my gosh, that’s too much pressure. This is a marriage, you can’t blame it all on me. I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery at that time. I grew a lot and found out a lot, it really helped me. He was just focused on this awful stuff and I was finding out that this is not about exploitative material. This is about every way we relate.
The gaslighting and the blaming, it’s just like a physical abuse problem where the husband batters the wife. Except for you don’t want to look bad by actually hitting me. So you hit me emotionally, and there are no bruises. I mean, that’s, I feel like it’s 100 percent what the problem was. So I started to get to safety. We had times where I left the house for a few weeks. I think at a time, like three times that year. That was the year we got divorced.
Felicia: It was probably 2021. Actually, before I found out about his use. I was calling myself an empath because he would come home and have these rages. And it would really bother me. Sliming cupboards when he’s cleaning and stonewalling. I would be like, you know what, this is my fault because he’s had a really bad day.
He didn’t tell me that I did anything wrong. And he’s like, he’s not telling me that, you know, I’m in a bad mood and don’t talk to me. So I was blaming it on that I feel him too much. Like he’s coming home and I’m like feeling all of this. Then I’m starting in on this fix it thing, which is labeling me as codependent. When I should just be like, Oh, you know, you’re allowed to have a bad day. That’s okay if you slam cupboards and stuff because you’re not hurting me.
Anne: During the time where you think maybe you’re an empath, was that when you thought that maybe you were codependent?
Felicia: I guess we have to kind of define codependency.
Anne: The official definition of codependent, which I do not think codependent is a thing. So I don’t even want to be like this. I want to be like, people have made this up and it’s a victim blaming thing that people use.
And in their minds, this is what codependent means. Characterized by excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner. Typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction.
Am I Codependent? Asking A Counselor About Codependency
Anne: So it’s saying you’re the one with the problem because you, Felicia. Which this is not true, but this is why it’s victim blaming.
You have this excessive emotional and psychological reliance on him. That’s not the case. He’s abusing you and you’re just trying to survive. Because in trying to get to safety, you’re trying to figure out what do I have control over? Maybe if I don’t feel all of his feelings. If I’m not so excessively reliant on him, then things will get better is what you’re thinking?
You are trying to make him into a safe person and other people are defining it as codependent.
Felicia: Yeah, almost like, oh, I need him to come home and be a peaceful person. That’s really bad of me to need someone to come home and be peaceful. Is that really codependent? That’s exactly it. And you know what? I do remember asking a counselor back in 2017 if I was codependent. She said, oh my gosh being codependent is a big problem. Let’s work on that.
I always felt like it was led by me to try to find what was wrong. I never wanted to be like, I’m here because I hate my marriage and my marriage is like ruining my life. So I thought it was a broader problem. Maybe it was my growing up or my background. Then when I found out it was exploitative material, she said, “I want to tell you this is abuse.”
I kind of rolled my eyes, because I was like, oh brother, like, abuse. That was just annoying to me.
You’re Not Codependent
Felicia: And I think it was just too much for me to look into, so I waited six or nine months. And that’s when I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And was like, yeah, it’s abuse.
Anne: So you didn’t stay in that codependent place forever. Women think that if their codependent then they can fix things. You find BTR. You were like, Oh, I’m not codependent, it’s really important to me that women know they are not codependent. Did you use BTR services at all?
Felicia: I did the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, and I did the BTR.ORG Individual Sessions. The group sessions were mind blowing. Because it was the first time I’d found a bunch of other people that completely related with absolutely everything I was saying. I thought this covert emotional abuse was like a specific problem that I had that, you know, was obscure.
Yeah, everyone in the group understood and you didn’t have to get them to understand what you were talking about. It was just like, yeah, we get it.
Anne: How was that different than the therapy that you had been going to?
Felicia: All those years. I was like looking for friendships, mentorships, counselors. Who would say, “Oh I found the problem that is perplexing your whole life.” I mean, it’s dragging you down. There’s that cave analogy where I’ve been like locked in a cave with an abuser. But also like a slave, a slave who like feels they need to be there because they need to help the master because that’s going to be a beautiful relationship.
Anne: Once you can help him enough, it’s going to be great. Just hold on a little bit longer.
Felicia: Yeah, it’s going to be a good marriage. That’s what marriage is.
Understanding Emotional Abuse
Felicia: And now here I am finding out that it is not the right way. And people don’t understand. I tell my friends and family pretend like this is physical abuse because it’s exactly the same. I don’t know what people think emotional abuse is. But it seems at first that it’s like an excuse or something.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery answered all of that. I was just desperate for years to find an answer. And it answered like all of that confusion that I had. I’m like, I don’t know how these other wives find out about it and then they just go on In their marriage. For me, I couldn’t be safe doing that.
Anne: Let’s talk to women who are like, “Well, what if it’s not abuse?” who think, “Maybe I’m codependent.” or ” Maybe he’s an addict.”
How do you know that the Betrayal Trauma Recovery model, the abuse model is real. Because I think some women are worried, I’ve thought it’s that before and it hasn’t been that. So there’s no reason to go down this abuse thing. Because I’m just going to find out in six months that it’s not abuse, that it’s actually something else.
Felicia: I’m still kind of in that, because now that we’re divorced, the co parenting is a nightmare. And I still am like, is it me?
Felicia: Not only that, but one humongous piece of the story is that right when I got the divorce, he turned all my friends against me. I have no friends now. It’s really hard to go to a church where you’re connected. And you have, good friends that you get together with, I told them about the abuse.
And they were like yeah, and I didn’t think they totally got it. I didn’t think they were gonna disown me. Like, these people have called me names and are not fun to see at the grocery store. So, it’s hard to believe that It’s not me, and so I’ve wondered if it’s me.
I think relationships, good marriage relationships are not confusing. There’s problems. You can see what’s going on. You can try to fix the problems and try to love each other more. But this relationship was completely confusing. There was no reconciliation. There was no now we can love each other now that we found that out. None of that. There was never any of that.
Anne: I think some women do go through a period of, Oh, now that we know this, things will get better. And if they do go to a addiction recovery specialist, they’ll actually tell them that. They’ll actually say things will get better now that you know this. They kind of do get better for a little bit, but then they don’t get all the way better and things are still confusing.
Exploitative Material & Power Dynamics
Anne: Then some addiction recovery folks, like a 12 step group or something, they’ll say, well, now you have to stay in recovery. And wife, you also have to do 12 step and you have to do this the rest of your life. Because this will always be an issue. Then do you just keep seeing that pattern over and over? And the problem is an abuse problem that keeps cropping up.
We all have healthy relationships with people who aren’t perfect. You can laugh about it. Like, Oh man, that’s funny. She sometimes is disorganized and she forgets things. She doesn’t become less forgetful necessarily. But the resolution is you learn, Oh, she’s forgetful sometimes. And that’s okay. We can work with this.
Abuse is not something that you can work with because abuse is always a power over dynamic. And so anytime it gets to a place where something feels resolved and you feel equal. Then the abuser will try to push you down again somehow. There’s never going to be any resolution possible.
Felicia: Trying to stop it, but it’s like the it is a symptom of this power and control. So it’d be like if you get physically abused and you try to stop the hitting. And the solution is to stop the hitting. That doesn’t make sense. They’re hitting you because of a power and control. You’re not just gonna try to stop the hitting and be like for the rest of your life. We’re gonna just try to stop the hitting.
Anne: But you can still lie and manipulate and all kinds of other things.
Secret Basement
Felicia: Yeah, I also learned about the secret sexual basement from Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s like, why is it abusive when someone lies to you? When you get married to that person, and let’s say you build a house together. And then after 12 years you realize there’s this basement that no one knew about.
That person got to go into the basement whenever they did, because they always knew about it. The whole family is like, what? I didn’t even know that we had this basement. That’s why it’s like abuse, because it’s It’s his choice when he wants to go. Also, why he wants to go, he knows all about it. Everyone else just has no clue that it was even in the makings of a construction. Much less what the content of that basement is.
Anne: It’s so hard, and it’s also hard when other people don’t know how to help victims identify this, right? Because they’ll go and say, my husband, to use this metaphor a little bit longer, he left, I don’t know where he’s going, I’m so confused. And instead of saying, oh, well, maybe he’s an abuser. Maybe you’re being psychologically abused, maybe he’s doing it in the basement, you know? As victims it’s hard to know the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict.
They’re like, oh, he just probably needs his space, and it’s healthy for people to have space, and then it just gets so confusing.
Marriage Wisdom & Abuse
Felicia: Yeah, the normal marriage wisdom doesn’t work for abuse situations. Just don’t expect so much. That doesn’t work. Give, give, give, and don’t expect anything in return. I mean, those were the things I grew up hearing about marriages. If you could guarantee me that both people were doing that, that’s true.
But the minute one person does that and the other person has no intentions of doing that. That’s what was baffling is after all these years, I’m like, I can’t believe that we’re marriage partners.
This is the person I’m supposed to be more intimate with than anyone else in the whole world. And I find out that you’ve been doing this. Against me and they say it’s not about you that exploitative material isn’t about you. That’s also very disturbing and not helpful. I don’t know who it’s about but it’s totally done to me. When you say to your wife, I don’t want to have it. No, thanks. I’m not in the mood. Or whatever your reasoning is, and then you’re off, having it with yourself.
Anne: It’s not true because they are in the mood to have it, but they’d rather have it with the computer. They’re not being truthful when they say that. They’re not being truthful when they say “I’m not in the mood.”
When You Can’t Trust Your Husband
Anne: They’re in the mood all the time to have it with someone else. Instead they should say, “Oh, I totally want to have it.
I have it so much. I do every day, twice a day. When I look at stuff online, I just don’t want to have it with you. That would be the truth. Then you’d be like, Oh, whoa. Instead, he’s just happy to have you think that you’re just unattractive, and somehow he doesn’t want to have it at all because you’re the way that you are. That’s absolutely not true.
Felicia: There’s so much problem in that, when you really think about a husband and a wife. What you just said is like, can you believe that would just be a simple problem? No. There’s so much, on every level, of betrayal right there. My ex explained to me that when he was trying to get me to see what it really was.
But when he said this, it was helpful. He’s like, it’s like going through a drive thru and ordering whatever you want. Then going and eating it in your car. You didn’t want to eat it in front of everybody because it’s kind of embarrassing that you’re a pig, or whatever. Even though it’s bad that he was trying to get me to understand that, that is exactly what it is.
Abuse Hard To Recognize
Felicia: It’s like a menu, and I wasn’t on the menu. Almost ever. I’m like barely ever on the menu.
Anne: Well, and you don’t want to be on the menu.
Felicia: I don’t want to be on the menu either.
Anne: Basically, you’re not a person to them. That’s just gross. No woman wants to be like, Oh yeah, I’m on the menu. Yay. Like, no.
Felicia: You’re exactly right.
Anne: Why do you think it takes victims so long to realize they’re a victim of emotional abuse?
Felicia: I don’t know. For me, like I said, I kind of rolled my eyes when I heard abuse. Because it’s like, oh great, everything’s abuse nowadays.
Being Labeled As Codependent Feels Empowering, but Abuse Isn’t Your Fault
Felicia: Abuse is one sided. I get into a marriage and if it’s abuse, I have to be like, you have a problem with hurting me. And it’s not my fault. And it ruins our relationship, but you need to change, and I can do nothing about it. That sucks. Not only am I not gonna say it’s my fault, but you’re not gonna say it’s your fault either. And I can’t do anything about it. The powerlessness, I guess.
Anne: It’s awful. I think that’s why women sometimes like the word codependent because It seems more empowering to them in the moment than abuse. Because if you are codependent then there is something you can do about it. If you’re partially responsible, by being codependent then you can do something about it. But if you’re not responsible for it at all, you can’t. And that feels terrible. Some women are like, I’d rather think I was codependent because then I have some power in the situation.
Whereas If I say it’s abuse, then the only thing I can do is get to safety. It doesn’t necessarily mean divorce. You can work towards safety. And he could have an epiphany like we talk about in the BTR BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. At any given time, he could enter reality and realize, Oh, I am being abusive.
I’m not going to do this anymore. But if he’s doing it on purpose, you telling him, “Hey, this is abuse,” is only going to make him abuse you more. Because he’s trying to shut that down.
Power Dynamics In Relationships
Felicia: Right, and there’s obviously a power dynamic anyway. That makes it worse now the powerful person is mad, basically.
I used to think it was wrong for me to think that my husband should treat me more affectionate, more loving. those are woman qualities. You shouldn’t expect a man to have those woman qualities. He can be gruff and, and kind of dumb, kind of clueless.
It was a thread throughout our whole marriage where he’s accidentally doing stuff to me. But because I’m extremely sensitive it causes a problem, but he’s really just like bumbling around in life. He can’t be hurting me if it’s not intentional.
He only can hurt me if he purposely did it. That was grooming, where I was like, made to believe that his intentions were always good. So I shouldn’t accuse him of doing anything that might say that he had bad intentions, because he never did.
Anne: Well, and the problem with that is the reason why they’re so hell bent on proving that their intentions are good. And that they didn’t mean to do it on purpose is because they did mean it on purpose. That is so hard for women to understand. That they want you to think. that they are doing it accidentally. Then they can kind of keep doing it because they always have a reason to do it. Oh, it was an accident.
Reasons Abusers Give
Anne: Of course I don’t think that if they said to their wives, no, I do this on purpose so I can exploit you. The wives would immediately be like, Oh, what? No, so they have to continually convince their victims that It’s accidental.
Therapists love that too. Oh, you’re doing it because of your childhood trauma. Or because of this and that, and whatever excuse they can think of, because it’s just too hard to admit. No, I do this on purpose because if I didn’t, I would have to take out the trash. And I would have to make dinner. I would have to help drive the kids around, and I don’t want to do that.
I just want to exploit her. And so I’m going to keep doing this instead. It’s absolutely more socially acceptable to pretend like you’re doing it on accident.
Community and Secondary Abuse
Anne: So now that you’re divorced and you can still see that he is abusive. Because he’s still doing it. now. he’s still blaming you and causing problems and co parenting is just an absolute nightmare. What would you say to women who are starting this process of, well, I’m not sure if he’s so abusive. Maybe I can do something about it. Maybe I am codependent. What would you say to them?
Felicia: The part that I’m still wrapping my head around is my whole community of believers just abandon me.
Anne: Like your congregation or your church?
Felicia: Yeah, that’s where I had friends, and I mean, we were moving cross country. I’ve lived all over the place in his educational and career pursuit. But I had lived where I lived for a couple of years. It was going to be like our forever home. I actually found friends, really good friends, right away. I guess I’m just mind boggled that they turned against me.
They do not want to have anything to do with me and they must believe I’m the bad guy. I don’t know what they believe about me, what lies were told about me. There’s three towns where I don’t even want to go to the grocery store. Because I have friends from those towns that I have seen at the grocery store. And had a bad encounter with.
That doesn’t even answer your question at all. It’s part of the story that’s the cliffhanger. Where I’m just trying to get healthy again, and stand up for myself. Because I know I’m right. And I’m trying to be my best friend that listens to me.
Frustration Of Husband’s Lies
Anne: Would you say that maybe what you’re struggling with is all of this secondary abuse that you’re experiencing? Because he has purposefully now tried to convince all of these people. And actually not just tried, been successful in convincing them that you’re the abuser on purpose, to isolate you and hurt you.
So now it’s like, oh, I thought I was so healed. I thought I understood, but he’s still actively trying to harm you. By harming your relationships with other people. He’s still actively abusing you.
Felicia: I told everyone the truth. He admitted to it and the divorce was supposed to be in agreement. I wanted to divorce him. I wanted people to know that this is because of his abuse that I’m doing this. He was saying yeah. Now my community is beating me up in the same way I always was.
They’re calling me a liar and I have like this fear now of, I’m a victim! I’m afraid of being like that. But that’s actually what’s happening. I’m another victim, and this time, it’s my whole community.
Anne: None of the abuse you’re experiencing now is convincing you, even more, that it’s abuse.
Seeking Support & Friendship
Anne: You’ve done BTR group sessions. You’ve been to Individual Sessions. So the two things to do now are get more educated about are strategy and how to deal with all the unsafe people around you. And then start praying you can make friends in your area.
People that you’ve never met before. People who know nothing about it to be on your team in your local area. You will find people. And they will be a great support to you. It might take a minute and it might be someone who’s going through it herself right now. It might be someone who you’re actually going to be an answer to her prayer.
That she’s like, I’m going through this too, and I need help. Those are the women who tend to be the most helpful in this situation. You tend to end up supporting each other because we really, really get it. And that’s why Betrayal Trauma Recovery is awesome because there’s nobody here that isn’t on your side.
Felicia: I found a new friend and she started to sound exactly like me a while ago. And so I decided to be for her what I would have wanted. I thought, his might be it. But we’re not really hanging out that much anymore. I was trying to be gentle in case she wanted to stay. I just don’t want her to go not knowing that this might be the answer. It’s not a good way to make friends talking about people’s husbands badly.
Being Honest In Friendship
Anne: Oh, that’s true. She didn’t realize he was abusive.
Felicia: I was like, do you guys have a good relationship? Is it confusing? Does he ever have any problems? She was answering them all in the red flag sense. So I was like, it might be this, you’re not codependent. She didn’t tell me no. Like, she said like, gosh, I had a feeling I should have been done with him a long time ago. They’re on their second marriage to each other. They already divorced and now they’re married.
Someone told me one time that they thought that my husband was into it. And I was just like, ugh, I did not like hearing that. I was like, No he’s not, You don’t understand. And now years later I’m like, she was right.
Anne: In order to make a true friendship, I feel like being honest is always the best policy. So if you’re like, hey, I feel like this is abuse. And they’re not ready for that for whatever reason. And it offends them and they don’t want to be your friend anymore. Then that’s okay. Maybe they’ll be your friend later.
Because you don’t want a service project. You want a really good friend who you really get each other. If her husband is abusive and she can’t see it. You’re not going to be a good friend to her either because it’s going to be driving you crazy.
Professional Services vs. Friendships
Anne: And that’s why professional services are so important. Because friendships really should be an equal thing, not service projects. Our services aren’t service projects. Because if we did them for free, we’d have to get other jobs. And we would not be able to help women, but they’re our job. So getting professional services is totally different than looking for a friend who’s on your level.
She’s almost doing you a favor in some ways because you would have been really annoyed all the time. You know, wait, she’s not seeing it. If she’s telling you clearly abusive things and you’re like, uh, you know it’s not going to be fun for you either.
Women Telling Other Women Their Codependent
Felicia: And then I’m just gonna build another fake community of a bunch of friends. That I don’t want to tell the truth to, so that’s not good. We don’t want a big group of women deciding that their all codependent. Yeah, I can see that being honest with people, and hopefully friendships will follow.
Anne: I think that you will. It’s just a hard time. Have faith and be yourself and stay true to who you are. And things will work out eventually. I’m so sorry that you’re going through that right now. That is so hard. You’re amazing.
Felicia: Thank you so much for being beautiful.
Anne: You’re amazing, you’re incredible, you’re strong, things are complex.
You’re Not Codependent: Spreading Awareness
Anne: A lot of people don’t like me because I say their husband is abusive. Not because I know him personally, not because I’m trying to hurt their marriage. But because objectively the behaviors she is describing are checking the boxes. That any domestic abuse services would say, yes, this is abuse.
That’s it. We’re not making abuse out of nothing. We don’t even know the people. We’re just saying, Okay, this is abuse. Also, we’re not giving any excuses for it.
Maybe he does have a brain lesion. Maybe he does have PTSD from when he served in Iraq. But that doesn’t mean it’s not abuse to you.
It doesn’t mean that it’s okay that you’re being abused. So, the reasons don’t matter why you’re being abused. The thing that matters is you’re being harmed. And it’s not your fault, you don’t deserve to be harmed. You don’t deserve to be harmed because someone has labeled you codependent.
Felicia: You’re right, and I’m not gonna feel sorry for spreading that message. I want women to not be harmed in their relationships. And I shouldn’t feel bad about not wanting that. I don’t want that for myself either, which I forget about myself. But yeah, I don’t want myself to be harmed.
Anne: But it is a lonely place sometimes, it’s just such a hard road and you don’t have to do it alone. We’re here for you, Felicia, and we’re here for all women going through this.
You’re Not Codependent You Just Need Support
Anne: All I want to do is educate women about abuse so that they would know what they were facing. So they would have information. They could make the decisions. That they aren’t going to be blamed for being codependent.
They want to make them and get to safety and we can support them in doing that. And then once they feel stable and safe and that they have friends in their area. Then we’re like, We’re so glad we were here for you when you needed us. And we wish you the best of luck.
We’re here again if you need us again. Unlike 12 step or even religion that’s like you can’t leave. You know, you have to stay in 12 step or you’ll do it. We’re like, there’s nothing wrong with you you’re not codependent. You’re amazing. We’re just here to support you through a very difficult time.
And then when you’re stable and you feel good and you feel like, Oh, I’ve got friends we’re like, yay. We love you. You’re going to do great. You’re brave, strong and incredible.
Final Thoughts: Codependent Is a Victim Blaming Label
Anne: Well, thank you so much, Felicia, for sharing your story. I really appreciate it.
Felicia: Thank you so much. I can do this.
Anne: You can, thanks for helping me get the word out that you are not codependent. You’re doing great. Talk to you soon.
Felicia: Bye
My Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me – Angel’s Story
Aug 26, 2025
If you’re realizing, “My husband won’t stop lying.” You’re not alone. Angel shares her heartbreaking experience, giving her second husband every opportunity to change. Lying is part of emotional abuse. To find out if you are emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
Anne: Today we have Angel , a survivor of two marriages that ended due to addiction. She has six awesome kids. Welcome.
Angel: Thanks for having me.
Anne: We’re going to talk to you a little bit about your personal story. You went through two marriages with addicted husbands. Let’s focus on the second marriage and what happened there. Can you talk to me about what your life was like before that D-Day with your second spouse?
Angel: I was divorced from my first husband, who was a pornography addict. And I met this guy who was everything I never imagined existed. He was soft. He was sweet. But not in a weird way. He was just this super awesome, amazing guy. I was not actually a Christian at the time, neither was he. We dated for a couple of years and bought a house together, and we went to church, and we both got saved in that church. And when we got saved, we got convicted for living together.
So we got married. I had already had six children from my first marriage. My children were rather young. It was a pretty normal life. I had the kind of relationship that my friends were jealous of, because my husband was always home. He would do chores. He didn’t leave his underwear on the floor. I had all kinds of health problems, but even despite all that, life was just good. Then after a couple of major surgeries and a foreclosure, we moved and everything changed.
He was very different, and I couldn’t figure out why. Of course, I thought it was me or my kids, because it couldn’t possibly be him. I didn’t know then that my husband was lying.
Discovery Day (D-Day)
Angel: I had been a stay at home mom, which I loved, but I opened a photography studio, so we were a pretty normal couple. didn’t go to church, which was unfortunate. I kept trying to get him to try new churches. But he was very resistant, and as time progressed, he got more and more distant. I started seeing more anger and lying, our intimate life almost disappeared.
And then one day, I was on his computer. I had all his passwords, and he had all mine, we had nothing to hide. So I looked at his computer history, not sure why I was looking at his computer history. Because he swore he never watched online explicit material, and I believed him.
I saw a bunch of meetup groups in his history. And all the profiles he looked at were female. And I thought that’s really weird, but I brushed it off, thinking he was looking for a tech meetup group because he’s a tech guy.
As I kept looking and seeing all these female profiles, it was like a light bulb went off. I out loud said, “My husband’s having an affair,” but I couldn’t see anything. So I ended up combing through his computer trying to find something, and I couldn’t find anything. So I went upstairs and got his phone, and started looking through the phone. I didn’t see anything until I found the Google Voice app.
And when I found the Google Voice app, I read two years worth of texts from his affair partner. So that was my first D-Day. And found out my husband had been lying.
Understanding D-Day
Angel: Yeah, like, as I’m telling it, I can literally feel still reading the texts from her. And at first I thought it was just virtual. But it wasn’t just virtual. By the end of the texting, I realized they had actually met in person.
Anne: For our listeners, maybe some of you are not familiar with the term D-Day. I’ve used it frequently on the podcast, and realized I’ve never defined it. In this context, D-Day means discovery day. The day you discovered your husband’s addiction, husband’s secret life, that your husband is lying to you. Sometimes it happens when you check your husband’s phone. In my case, my worst D-Day was when my husband was arrested for domestic violence.
And I realized, wait a minute, the behaviors I’ve been experiencing for seven years have been emotional abuse and physical intimidation. So, that day when everything came to a halt, that is what we call D-Day. We would love to hear about your D-Day, what you experienced. You can comment anonymously below about what happened to you. We would love to hear your experience about when you found out you were a victim of betrayal trauma in your relationship.
Angel: If I can actually piggyback on the telling your story part, I think that is probably one of the most healing things you can do is tell your story. The more you tell your story, the more healing you get, at least that’s what I’ve experienced. Telling your story is super, super hard, but there is so much healing in telling that story. So please share your stories.
My Husband’s Lying Won’t Stop: Confrontation & Relapse
Angel: I confronted him. Of course, my husband kept lying and minimizing. And then I relapsed myself. I am a recovering drug addict. One of my friends had flown me down to Florida to shoot their wedding, and they had special favors of tequila with their names, and it was super cute. https://www.btr.org/is-there-hope-after-infidelity/
I kept them in my cabinet, but that day I grabbed the tequila, and my own relapse started and didn’t stop for a while. I wanted to kick him out, but I was too busy yelling at him. So I didn’t kick him out. Then I tried to get to the why’s. And of course, it was all me. It was everything I was doing wrong.
I went into this, I have to become a perfect wife because I drove my husband to an affair. That lasted a little while on a longer than it should have. Then the relapse got worse for me and he was still doing things that I didn’t even know existed yet.
And so I led the “recovery” by handing him books, finding him therapists, and trying to teach him how to help me. And the whole time, everything’s getting worse for us. There’s more fights. He’s starting to get borderline violent. He never actually hit me, but he would trap me in rooms when I wanted to leave to escape a discussion. Or he would try to force his way into rooms. If I didn’t want to have a discussion right then and there, the behaviors just really escalated.
Angel: About 15 months of this chaos, and unfortunately, I did my own acting out. I don’t know, I thought it was revenge. I thought that would make me feel better. All it did was make me feel worse. And to this day, it still breaks my heart that I did that. So 15 months later, nothing was better. Everything was worse. I clearly had PTSD at this point. The symptoms were there. I was a twitchy mess. That’s how I described myself.
So I kicked him out. Two days later, after I kicked him out, the floodgates opened and I found out about all the online explicit material. The men, the prostitutes, and everything else that went along with the addiction. So for 15 months, I thought it was just an affair, and then everything else came out. Because I have so much history with recovery from addiction, I know that change is possible. Even though I had found out my husband was still lying.
I let him come home, because now I had an answer. This is why we haven’t been able to heal. It was because of an addiction. Well, now we can fix the addiction. So I let him come home.
Anne: You’re having ups and downs with your own recovery during this time. And then you get the bombshell of finding out that he he’s been with other women, men, visiting prostitutes, and were you wondering if there is hope after infidelity?
Angel: I was a weird mix of terrified, shocked, but hopeful. Again, I believe in the power of recovery. I know that an addict can change, because I changed. I know that because I know a ton of addicts that have changed.
https://youtu.be/j8CvkDrWyRc
Living In Fear
Angel: And actually the addicts that I know that changed. They’re some of the most authentic people you’ll ever meet. I did have that hope, but I was terrified.
Anne: I feel the same way, by the way. Even with what I’ve been through, my ex husband’s not in recovery. Well, lately I’ve been praying every day that Christ will revive him. Like, literally, like, bring him back from the dead.
Angel: Amen.
Anne: Because I watch him and want our family together so badly, even though he’s my ex husband now. Even though I hold a no contact boundary because of his lack of emotional health, I still want our family together. So as you’re hoping for him to change, what are you doing?
Angel: I did my research, but I did the wrong research. I ended up in the female co-addict, codependent books. And I didn’t find the right path to healing for a long time. I was slowly starting to recover me. Because I had lost me at this point. I was literally unrecognizable within a few months of him moving back home after the second large disclosure.
That’s when the PTSD got insanely bad. Him coming home, nothing changed. I mean, all the behaviors that come along with addiction were there. My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me. He was angry. He blamed me for stuff. We were having circular conversations that made me feel insane.
I did not know my reality was what he said, just true. Am I actually crazy? I wrestled with that one for a long time. And then I got some form of, I guess it’s a agoraphobia.
My Husband Was Still Lying: Agoraphobia
Angel: I was so triggered whenever I left my bedroom. That I basically lived in my room for like a year. I remember there was a period for a couple of weeks where just going to the bathroom was traumatic, which sounds exaggerated. It was really, like I would put my hoodie on and put my hood over my head, for some reason that made me feel safer.
And I would literally run to the bathroom. Like there was this monster in the house that was going to get me. And then ran back, and my bedroom was like my cocoon. It was the only place I felt safe. And I missed a lot of my life for almost a year in that place. And the whole time he’s acting out and of course saying he’s not, he’s claiming his sobriety from the rooftops, and she’s actually just crazy, he just kept lying.
Anne: Was he sleeping in the bedroom with you at the time, or was he sleeping somewhere else in the house?
Angel: After he moved home, he was in the bedroom for a very short time, then he was on the couch.
Anne: Okay, so he’s not in the bedroom with you, and so thus you feel like you at least have a little bit of a safe space, kind of.
Angel: Yes.
Anne: But not really, since you’re still terrified.
Angel: Yeah, that was just my cocoon. We were in this chaotic cycle and the behaviors progressed. I said, I need to stop this conversation. And he grabbed my arms and was trying to force me to talk to him.
Isolated From Church & Friends
Angel: And he did it so hard that they bruised. And I didn’t even realize that was physical abuse. That thought never crossed my mind. He was starting to get mean with the kids. Everything was just escalating, and my children were suffering. Because you know, mom’s locked in her bedroom and dad’s gone crazy. This part’s just a little, a little hard, because I have kids I love and I was so depressed that they didn’t even matter.
And as a mom, that’s really, really hard to admit, but that’s how low things had gotten for me. And I should have explained. I have literally no family, none. He had isolated me from my church and from my friends. So I literally was alone. And so I’m sitting in my car with this bottle. And I hadn’t been to church in a couple of years. All of a sudden I hear this, not, well, not literally hearing, but “call Robin,” her name is Robin, a woman from my old church.
And Robin and I were never close. I mean, I know her, I liked her, but it’s not like we were good friends. I just kept feeling this call Robin, call Robin, call Robin. And I’m like, I don’t want to call Robin. I’m done. I’m done with life. I can’t do this anymore. I summoned up the nerve to call Robin, and I went to her house, and vomited my entire story onto Robin.
That’s the first time I’d ever told my entire story, and she had no advice. She just listened.
Back To Church & Telling My Story
Angel: By the end of it, I got angry. All of a sudden, I asked her for a Sharpie. She’s looking at me like I have three heads, but she gets me a Sharpie. On my wrists, I wrote live free one on each wrist that day. I decided I was done. I was not going to end my life because he couldn’t fix his. And that’s when recovery started for me.
Anne: Wow, you have a powerful story, and I appreciate your candor and sharing this with us today. And I’m sorry for all your pain. I can hear it in your voice, and so many of our listeners have felt similar feelings to what you felt. So when you decided to recover yourself, what were your first steps?
Angel: The first thing I did was go back to church. I knew that I was so far in a pit, I was not going to get out on my own. So I started reading my Bible all the time, and stopped listening to secular music. And I just surrounded myself with the word of God, and I actually sought out people for the first time. Then I started telling my story to anybody who would listen, because I needed help.
I was so desperate that I didn’t care if you were a rock. I was going to tell you my story. Because during all this, I found that five of my six children had struggled with online explicit material. It was just bad. I started going back to church, and I found a couple of different websites that had me doing exercises on like visualizing what I want my life to be. What my values are.
Creating Boundaries To Distance Myself From My Husband’s Lying
Angel: I learned the word boundary, I had never heard of it. Then I started reading books. Piece by piece, I started getting better. I actually kicked him out. And I filed for divorce, which wasn’t what I wanted, but I was literally dying. So I had no other options. And we were a month away from divorce when I heard about a program called Teen Challenge.
It’s actually designed for drug addicts. It’s like a rehab year-long live-in program. And I told my husband at the time, I’ll stop the divorce and see who you are. If you commit to go to teen challenge. I didn’t think he’d say yes, but he did.
He quit his job and lived in a program for a year. He got better for a couple months. And relapsed in Teen Challenge, or so he told me. Now he says he didn’t actually relapse of course my husband is lying. He’s changed the story so many times I don’t actually know the truth. But either way, he wasn’t getting better. So he graduated Teen Challenge.
I was still afraid of a relapse. There were still a lot of red flags for me. So he moved in with our pastor for a while, so I could see how he could handle life on the outside. My landlord in the house we lived in gave us 30 days notice because he was selling the house. So I had to find a new rental that would accept my brood of children and my animals while I’m working full time and still dealing with trauma.
And so I actually let him move home to help me.
Failed Reconciliation
Angel: It spiraled quickly over the summer, and he went back to those old bad behaviors, physically threatening me, the anger, the continued lying to me. And then I caught him with online explicit material and I kicked him out.
Anne: I can’t imagine what you’re feeling. Well, I can actually, sorry, part of me can. So you send him away for a year. You have faith in God, and he’s been through this program. He moves back home, and it all totally falls apart again. I imagine you were completely devastated at this point.
Angel: I started going back into, I call it, PTSD land, where I kind of lived with all the PTSD symptoms. What made me decide to kick him out was the agoraphobia came back again. And at this point, I had regained my life. I was an active mom, and I was who I was. I was fun, light, and doing things outside in the world. And I could handle football games for my son. I was me again.
And over that summer, all the old stuff started coming back in me, and I said, no, I’m not, I’m not going there again. And I kicked him out.
Anne: Wow, how are you feeling about God at this point?
Angel: Oh, I’m angry.
Anne: I would be too. I’m thinking God’s told you to send him to this year long thing, you’ve been doing all this alone. He comes back, and basically he is not changed at all. Why? Why didn’t you just have me end it a year ago? Right, we’ve all been through that thought process.
Reclaiming Faith
Angel: I just went through a year of basically hell, while he’s in rehab. And he’s not even out two months and he relapsed. What am I missing here?
Anne: Right.
Angel: Something’s not adding up. Yeah, I was angry. I felt betrayed by God. I love worship music, but all my worship music reminded me of my husband, so I stopped listening to that.
There’s this one song that talks about I’m going to take back what the enemy has stolen. For the longest time, that song resonated, we were going to take back our marriage. I decided to flip that song around, and it wasn’t about my marriage anymore. It was about what the enemy stole from me. And one of the things he stole from me was my faith in God. He got my marriage, but he doesn’t get to have my faith. He doesn’t get to take the pieces of me.
And honestly, I kind of yelled at God a lot. I yelled at God some more, and then I yelled at him some more. And every time I did it. I could feel him saying, I understand, but I got this. I kicked him out and he moved 900 miles away. We got divorced. The divorce is final. And I actually offered reconciliation. Obviously, it would require repentance and recovery, that has not happened.
And he has basically abandoned the kids. He has absolutely no contact with them whatsoever. Right now, that’s the hardest part watching my teenage girls go through that abandonment.
My Husband’s Crazy Behaviors & Lying Create Chaos
Anne: Yeah, my ex, he moved from a city he was living in temporarily back to the city where we live. He told his friends, I’m so excited to move back. I can spend more time with my kids. And then from the day he moved back, he hasn’t seen the kids for four weeks now.
When you’re talking about the definition of insanity. And where you were in that process of observing your husband’s behaviors, being in that chaos. And not being able to figure out exactly what was happening.
Angel: When you see these behaviors that are insane. That’s what they look like, and they make absolutely no sense. When he won’t stop lying to me, and you have a set of beliefs, morals, and standards. And your actions don’t match that, it creates its own chaos. That’s where you tend to see all the other crazy making behaviors that drive us absolutely insane. Lying, that’s probably one of the most rage igniting things.
Anne: Lying it’s like you’ve got Jekyll and Hyde .
Angel: Well, Jekyll and Hyde, like the wife finds something on the history of the computer, he has to figure out a way to make the two make sense. Lying is a good way to do it. Lying can alter our reality and perception of what’s going on. They’ll say things like, well, it’s not a real person, so it’s not that bad. It’s not even cheating.
I’m a man, I can’t help it. I have a high drive, and besides, all men look at it, right? I mean, it’s a guy thing. It’s just what they do. I only do it a few times a month. It’s not a problem.
Effects Of Online Explicit Material
Anne: Women in the industry are not treated well. Many of them are on drugs. Many of them have been exploited. They are miserable doing their job, and the time they spend in the industry is very, very short. Most of them don’t spend a lot of time doing it, because it’s so difficult for them. I’ve talked to someone on the other end. He produced itfor a while, and then stopped.
And he said, I always knew I was ruining the lives of the women I filmed. But I never thought about the people watching it and how their lives were also being ruined. I think it’s very difficult for them to realize that they’re hurting their wife, themselves, and also hurting the woman being exploited. They’re also hurting the people in it.
And so it’s important to teach people that it creates a demand for exploitation. And that demand must stop. As long as people are viewing it, there will also be exploitation and slavery. All the lying is so intense.
Angel: My husband won’t stop lying to me. He twists words to convince me that these lies make sense. Like, I deserve to watch that, because my wife won’t have it with me, even though that doesn’t make any sense. That one is so damaging to women, because one of the big lies is the way the wife looks.
Or they will blame the weight the wife has gained, or the activities that the wife is willing to do. If she did such and such act, I wouldn’t have to watch it. Or, if she took care of herself and lost some weight, I wouldn’t have to watch it.
Lame Excuses, Lies & Projecting
Angel: Or, if she wasn’t such a mean, demanding person, then I wouldn’t need all this stress relief. Or, I’ve had a really bad day at work, all my customers are jerks, and I’ve been treated like crap by my boss, and I deserve to watch it.
Anne: In my case, I was too much, asked too many questions, was too consistent, demanding and controlling. Because I was a woman of my word, I had integrity. I was trying to figure out what was going on, and I was not going to stop until I had the answers.
Although at the end, he told me that I was not attractive. But before that, it was that I was too much, and then it became that I wasn’t enough. And it was very hurtful to me. I had the same issue, my husband kept lying to me. Those lies still ring in my ears. He also lied about small things too.
Angel: Right, mine was good at projecting. He started isolating himself from the family. We would have things that we were going to do, like carve pumpkins. I’d say, come on, let’s go carve pumpkins. And he would say he was working in his office, and he wasn’t. Or, hey, let’s go to the park. Pretty much anything with the family, he kept lying to me.
Well, he said he cheated because I didn’t want him involved in my life. Like he literally would flip everything around, and then he would say things like, I didn’t want it enough. And the reality was that I was starved and turned down all the time.
My Husband Won’t Stop Lying: Gaslighting & Emotional Abuse
Anne: Mine didn’t ever initiate in the first place, and then I stopped initiating. And he didn’t ever do it, and I’m sure he tells people she wouldn’t have it with me. So that was a lie he told about me. And I’m like, well, you only initiated twice during that six months where I didn’t initiate. And both of those times were immediately after I had been severely emotionally abused.
I wasn’t safe. And then you didn’t ever try when I did feel safe. So yeah, that makes sense. But he doesn’t tell people, because I didn’t initiate it for six months. That gaslighting is intense and traumatizing. Gaslighting is part of emotional abuse.
Angel: Yeah, and the gaslighting made me feel crazy, because I didn’t know my reality. Gaslighting is lying. My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me. And that’s such a hard thing to describe, not knowing my reality. But when everything is twisted and all I had was him and me. I didn’t have anybody to tell me, okay, no, that’s not right. Or that’s not making sense. I don’t know what’s up or down, and it’s all because of the gaslighting.
He would say something, and then five minutes later I would repeat it back to him, and he would say, I never said that. And I’m like, yes, you did, but by the end of the conversation, I’m going, well, did I?
Angel: Really didn’t know.
Anne: Yeah, or they say, I know I said that, but that’s not what I meant. And you’re like, no, this is what you meant. This is exactly what you said, but now you’re denying it. It’s strange, yeah.
Educating Women On Abuse
Anne: The reason we talk about abuse is to educate women about the behaviors they can expect. So that they know they’re not crazy, so they can start to observe their husband’s behavior to see if their husband is emotionally safe. Learn about this in The Living Free Workshop. My number one goal with Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to teach women what these safe behaviors look like. So that they can start to establish safety for themselves. Because you cannot heal from the trauma if trauma is continually happening to you.
Angel: No matter what’s going on with him, there is hope for you. You don’t have to stay stuck. Your life can change. Your life can get better.
Anne: You are worth it.
Angel: Amen.
Anne: You are worth it. God loves you, and he wants you to be safe. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate the time you’ve taken to talk with us.
Angel: Thank you for having me.
My Husband Is Paranoid And Angry – Louise’s Story
Aug 19, 2025
If you’re thinking, “My husband is paranoid and angry,” this interview will help you sort out what’s really going on. It’s likely that you’re experiencing emotional abuse. To find out, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: My Husband Is Paranoid And Angry
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Louise. She’s here to share her story. So many women share a similar story. They talk about how their husbands are paranoid and angry.
One of the reasons women think their husband is paranoid is because they don’t realize he’s lying. So when he says things like, you’re trying to control me, you don’t respect me, nobody respects me. Women take it at face value, they don’t realize he is lying. And so he sounds paranoid. And maybe he is, or maybe it’s just manipulation.
Louise, Welcome. let’s start with your story.
Louise: Thank you, we married at 19, and we knew each other all our life. I noticed he was mean to his sister, and I talked him out of that. So I thought he’d learned his lesson. I mean, the stories are all the same, but talking at me in the evenings in bed. And sometimes in the day for hours on end. Always disagreeing until I cried, and it took me years to figure that out.
We were raised in that patriarchy setting. Where women just didn’t have a say, right? In the Mennonite church, and then we went into the Bill Gothard stuff. And I wanted to be the perfect wife and mother. And, and the way to do that was to be totally submissive and obedient. So then he was always saying, “But you’re not obeying me.” And when I did, he would, in front of the children, say, but I told you different.
Louise: We were married in 1972, and in those days, there was no information, there was no internet. We had seven biological children and three from an orphanage in Haiti. That was a difficult time. I went to the library one day, and there a little book caught my attention, called Men Who Hate Women. That was the beginning of my education.
Anne: Before you found the book, what did you think was going on? Can you talk about your feelings at that time?
Louise: I felt like I was never good enough. Why is he always paranoid and angry? And I thought if I was good enough, maybe something would work out. Or if we could get counseling, you know, the old story.
Anne: You didn’t just think that, by the way. He was actually telling you that. He said to you, the problem is you. If you would cook better, if you would do this better, if you would serve me more, then it would solve our problems. Which kept you in this hamster wheel. Your husband manipulated you to think that. He wanted you to think that.
Louise: And when he sensed that I thought that, then of course he used that, right? And pastors were no help, they said the same thing. And the teaching we had from Bill Gothard was that, as long as everybody was obedient to whoever was above them. That umbrella scheme, then everything would work out, right? A person is attracted to the promises that if you do this, everything will come out right.
Louise: I opened up this book in the library, and found a list. If your husband does six of these 20 things, then he is abusing you. And I got to number 11 or 12, and I slammed it shut. Because you don’t want to hear that, then what do you do? That’s the end of your life. And I snuck it home and read it, but there were no answers in it either. They didn’t have any answers, just explanations.
And yeah, you’re supposed to be strong. But when you’re raised to think you’re not strong, and that you don’t have a say, then you can’t be strong. And then the next thing was my sister gave me the Boundaries Teachings. And that was a shock, that I was actually allowed to say no to anybody in this world. So I listened to that over and over. And very slowly, started to do that.
And finally, one day, I prayed, and I read 1 Peter 3 and 4, and I read it several times. I thought, Okay, God, what do you want me to learn from this? And a light went on. This is not a formula, but this is what I feel I was told. And so I went to him, and I said, I think God told me you can have all the sex you want. And he goes, oh, and I said, but you have to choose.
There are two types of relationship. There’s a master slave, and there’s Christ’s church, and you have to choose which one. If it’s a master slave, you command me to do, and I’ll just let you.
My Husband Is Paranoid And Angry: Living With The Consequences
Louise: And if it’s Christ’s church, you have to win me back, because you have lost my affection. Both options require humbling yourself, right? That’s not gonna happen. And first he yelled at me and said, “You’re my wife, you’re supposed to obey me. I command you to feel affection for me right now.”
We slept in the same bed for three more years and never had it again. Because he couldn’t admit he wanted a slave, and he couldn’t humble himself to be Christ like. On the other hand, this gave him a lot of fuel with counselors. She hasn’t let me touch her in three years, right?
I know he masturbated about four times a day. He did admit it , and then I figured out why I was finding him sleeping in the hay all the time, because he tired himself out with it.
Anne: Wow.
Louise: If he had magazines, I have no idea, because I didn’t think of it. I mean, we were married 25 years. And I only found some of this out right at the end. It didn’t cross my Mennonite mind, you know. So that was all that was on his mind. If I ever smiled at him, he would come rushing over and say, “You want it? You smiled at me.” That’s all that was on his mind. He was in Fantasyland. And if I tried to talk to him, I interrupted the fantasy, and he would be angry.
He was paranoid and angry all the time. When I blew up once in a while, he accused me of being too angry and having to protect the children from me.
Seeking Help & Facing More Abuse
Louise: He would talk at me for hours and hours, just in circles, the crazy making thing. And I cried out to God, I said, God, what should I do? I actually heard the words shut up, in a nice way. And I said, what? It was like this never goes anywhere. Stop engaging in these conversations. So I did. And then he would tell counselors, she won’t talk to me, and if only she would communicate with me, we would be fine.
And they would agree with him. Then I started writing things down, and when he caught me, he says, “You shouldn’t keep a record of wrongs, that was evil.” He was so paranoid. And we flew all the way to Minneapolis to this well known, good counselor. And I showed him my notes, he read them that evening, and the next day he said, “If this is true, we have a big problem.”
Then he sent me out, he took my husband in, an hour later he brought me in, and he says, Your husband reassured me that you made all this up.
Anne: What?
Louise: Yeah, it was a Christian counselor. He and his buddy had written some books. I forget what they were called, and I don’t remember his name either.
Anne: Wow, wow.
Louise: Another time, my sister took me to her counselor in Vancouver. I told him one or two sentences of what was going on. And then he perfectly got it, and he said there’s only one thing you can do, and that’s an intervention. Get his friends together to intervene, and tell him he’s got to stop this behavior. Or else they’re going to help you get away.
Psych Ward & Separation
Louise: So I called my friends and they agreed to do that. And then they picked me up from my sister. And when I got to their place, they had called him to come get me, because I was all mixed up in the head.
Anne: Oh, so they turned on you.
Louise: So finally toward the end, we went to Elijah House in Washington. It was Christian counseling, they do prayer counseling. Throughout the counseling, they asked God, what’s going on here? And they figured it out, they said it was abuse. But he said it didn’t work. He said to me, don’t you know you’re always wrong?
And when I told him I wasn’t going to talk all night. I said, if you can make me cry in five minutes, then you’ll suddenly see my point. And if it takes five hours, and he says, “Oh don’t you know that if I can make you sick or cry that makes a man out of me?
Anne: Wow.
Louise: It was shortly after that when I checked myself into the psych ward, because I just felt like I couldn’t take it anymore. And there was a counselor there, a psychologist, who talked to both of us and said, See, you just have to communicate with him. But the doctor in charge came to me on the third day and said, “Listen, the nurses tell me you don’t belong here.”
Divorcing A Paranoid And Angry Husband
Louise: What is really going on? And so I told him. A couple of days later, he said, do you want to go home? And I said, my kids need me. But I was happy there. And he said, I’m a Christian, I don’t believe in divorce. But I’m not going to let you out of here until I know you’ve made arrangements not to live with him anymore. And I fell apart because I thought that would be committing the worst sin in the book, even just separating.
But I called my friend and she called the pastor and the pastor told him, Oh, just play along with it. Live in your van for a few days and once she gets home, she’ll let you back.
Anne: Oh my word, this is abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse.
Louise: Yeah, and my dad said, Oh, just give her a pill, but I never let him come back.
Anne: You are so brave and so strong. You were resisting his abuse the whole time, because you did exactly what you were supposed to do. You were going for help, and no one, except for that last guy, was helping you, you are so brave.
Louise: Actually, I wasn’t going to divorce him. His friend flew in and told him to get rid of me real quick, and so he divorced me. I think he thought I was making it all up. He’s married to my cousin, and we’ve always been friends. I’ve known him all my life, so I don’t know what the deal was, but I was glad.
Second Marriage & Red Flags
Anne: That his friend convinced him to let you go, really? Your resistance had become quite troublesome for him. That’s actually what happened to me. My ex divorced me because my resistance was so untenable to him.
Louise: I think I made him look bad, so he had to make me look bad. Then I was single for eight years, and it was great. My health got better. I just loved raising the kids myself. But he basically ran me out of town. He played games with the finances. Totally ruined my reputation with my friends and the church and everything. In little subtle ways where, well, you know how she gets and stuff like that.
And even my oldest daughter she came home one day. And she said, Mom, if you knew what people were saying about you in this town, you wouldn’t want to live here anymore. She didn’t actually share what she heard, but that’s what happened. And so I thought, you know, maybe marrying again would be a good idea. This must be a rare dynamic. Surely there aren’t many guys like that around. But I met my current husband.
It was a visa thing, you had to move here a week before you get married type thing.
Anne: So you meet him online, he’s got a farm, and you move to the States with him. Did you have a long distance relationship with him?
Louise: Yeah, but it wasn’t that far, like five hours, we could see each other fairly often. And looking back, sure, you can see the red flags. Well, I have to confess to you that I found some old exploitative tapes, but I destroyed them.
Repeated Patterns & Seeking Counseling
Louise: So that sounds pretty good. right? On the wedding day, I had a friend I hadn’t known terribly long. And he went off driving with her all afternoon. Then he came home and took her into our bedroom for an hour with the door closed. I was shocked. I had my friends and family, they were all there in the house, and I still don’t know what they were thinking. Because he ignored them all, all day, and then a couple years later, I signed us up for a marriage retreat.
I found out three years later, he had arranged for his girlfriend to be there, and her husband. I know he had another email account. So he was keeping in contact with a couple of girlfriends, and he was definitely into pornography. He admitted it to the counselor we went to. It was pretty much the same thing all over again. Several years ago, I said, if we want to make this work, I want you to sign up with an abuse counselor.
And, oh, he was like, no, that’s not going to work because blah, blah, blah, blah. And finally, he did sign up and she interviewed him, and then she talked to me and she said, you know, you’re wasting your money. Take that money and get help for yourself. The biggest thing that has helped me, about five or six years ago, one day I looked in the mirror and I said, God, what do you think of me? How do you feel about me? And in the next three days, everything changed.
Knowing God Loves Me
Louise: I know what God thinks now. And so the next time he insulted my body, I just laughed. And I said something like, You’re not such a young punk yourself anymore. Something like that. Sometimes it still hurts. Sometimes it still makes me mad. But when you know to expect it, and you know it’s not your problem. That makes a huge difference, and I’ve also learned to do a lot of boundary setting. I know he thinks that means I’m controlling him, but I’m not.
It used to be like, is it okay if I go to town? A lot of isolation, he didn’t want me to go to the town six miles away because it was a waste of gas. And I just say this is what I’m going to do today. I don’t know, there’s always answers and always help. The Bible says, Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, and he will answer us. And sometimes he gives dreams, and sometimes a scripture, sometimes a friend. It’s important to have support when your husband is paranoid and angry.
Louise: Oh, totally. Like night and day, the whole Christian world said you can’t get divorced. And it’s the woman’s fault, everything. You know, if you would treat him better or whatever, this wouldn’t be happening. And you try until you make yourself sick, right? And, you know, we can be thankful for all the support we have, but you still have to reach out. Because my husband is paranois and angry.
Anne: Well, do you know why we have that support now? It’s because of women like you, I’m standing on your shoulders.
Reflecting On The Past
Anne: Had you not resisted in all the ways you resisted, I would not be here. And so we all owe a great debt to women who came before us, who led the way for us.
Louise: Our stories hopefully can help someone else. Who is dealing with an angry and paranoid husband.
Anne: I’m so grateful for women who pressed on without any support. Your stories are both inspiring, and then also so horrific. It sounds like torture, and I’m so sorry you went through that. It’s awful.
Louise: And the hard part is when people don’t believe you, you know?
Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, can you believe that people are still not believing women?
Louise: Yeah, no, it’s amazing.
Anne: Yeah, yeah, it is. You are so brave and incredible. And as you continue to grow and heal. I’m so grateful to have you as part of our community. Thank you so much for all your support.
Louise: For years, almost from the beginning, I think.
Anne: Thank you so much for your support. Do you remember how you found the podcast?
Louise: I think on Facebook. And I sure appreciate what you all do.
Anne: We appreciate you. Thank you for all your support over the years. If it weren’t for women like you, we wouldn’t be doing this. So thank you.
Louise: Yeah. Thanks so much for putting it out there. I mean, it takes something to just put our stories out there.
Anne: It does. It’s a lot of work. It’s so worth it. I’m so honored to hear women’s stories, because it’s a very vulnerable thing to share your story. Thank you so much, Louise, for sharing today. It will make a big difference to someone who hears it. Thank you so much.
Louise: Thank you.
What Does Jesus Say About Abuse? Points From The Bible
Aug 12, 2025
In the face of emotional and psychological abuse, women often carry the burden of being the peacemaker. But what does Jesus say about abuse?
Matthew 5:25 is often quoted to manipulate women. But here’s what Jesus is really saying.
To see if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
What Does The Bible Say About People Who Are Abused?
Let’s take Matthew 5:25 – What does Jesus say about abuse? Jesus says, “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.”
If your husband is emotionally and psychologically abusive, rather than engage with the abuser, you can quickly and passively agree (if it’s safe to do so). Anne shares an example on the podcast:
“You can be a peacemaker and you can be safe with the strategy of agreement. Here are some examples. Let’s say your husband says something like, ‘Well, you don’t respect me and you never listen to me.’
Rather than diving into an argument or pulling out all the times where you did listen to him and how you do respect him, because you always ask his opinion before you spend more than $50 and all the reasons why you are a good person. You can say, ‘oh, that’s interesting; I haven’t thought of that.‘”
How To Agree With The Abuser 101
Best practice is to appear disinterested and apathetic. The abuser wants to create chaos. We want you to create distance between yourself and the abuse so that you can create safety for yourself. Here are some phrases (along with a disinterested, apathetic impression) to use when you’re “agreeing quickly” with the abuser:
Huh, that’s interesting. I’ll look into it.
I hadn’t really given that much thought – thanks.
That may be true.
Fair enough.
Very interesting. I appreciate your thought.
I will definitely give that more thought.
That may be valid.
All opinions are generally worth consideration.
I will consider that.
Yeah, you may be right.
Apathetic Agreement Quashes Chaotic Arguments
Your apathetic, disinterested “agreement” is a great way to quash his attempts at arguing with you.
The word salad, gaslighting, intimidation, and other abusive tactics that come up when abusers “argue” with victims can be extremely damaging. A quick, apathetic agreement is a great way to “douse the fire” and create an opportunity for you to get a safe distance from the abuser.
“I’m not mad or upset; there’s no fight. They love a fight, and they also love it when you do what they want. So they’re trying to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do. But if you’re not going to do that, then they will enjoy the chaos of an argument.”
Anne: It’s just me today. Even though this podcast is interfaith and interparadigm, many of you who listen are Christian. If you are not Christian, this episode will still help you, and these principles will apply. Yes, it is what does Jesus say about abuse, but it’s also one of the strategies from the Living Free Workshop, and I’m going to go into detail about it. In the Living Free Workshop, it is all secular. It’s just the strategies themselves, without any background information about how I discovered it.
So what does Jesus say about abuse? What does the Bible say about divorce?We’re going to look at some scriptures that abusers have used to spiritually abuse victims, so that they can exploit them. The first one is Matthew 5:25. It’s part of the Sermon on the Mount. And Jesus says, “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee unto the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.”
In the scripture, he’s talking about someone who wants to do you harm. They want to imprison you. When it comes to abusers, they want to oppress you, and they’re going to say things to manipulate you. So Jesus says we should agree quickly with our adversary, and this is the best way to deal with a dangerous person in a strategic way. So here’s an example of agreeing quickly with an adversary, and how it can protect you.
Real-Life Example: Singles Event
Anne: I was at a singles event and there was a man who wanted me to talk to him. I was not into it because he was like, 30 years older than me, and no.
And as I was like, brushing him off, he said, “You really push men away. Men aren’t going to like that.” And I remembered what Jesus said about agreeing quickly with my adversary. So I said, “Yeah. cool.” Basically, like, yeah, I do push men away, great. Instead of doing what he wanted me to do, which was stop and say, oh, of course I don’t want to push men away, I will talk to you because I’m polite. I was like, yeah, I push men away, mission accomplished.
What Does Jesus Say About Abuse? Applying the Strategy in Marriage
Anne: When it’s a husband, he’s going to say things like, you don’t care. You don’t love me, you won’t meet my needs, you don’t respect me. You don’t respect me is the most common abuser statement there is. Instead of trying to prove that you do respect him, or explain to him why you don’t respect him. Think about this strategy that Christ taught us. Jesus says about abusers to Agree quickly with an adversary.
You could say, oh yeah, maybe I don’t. And then you always need to follow up with an exit strategy. That’s the quickly part. You agree immediately, and then exit. So with the man at the singles event, I said, “Oh yeah, I do push men away, cool.” And I walked off. With your husband, the quickly part would be like, I have to fold the laundry. We can talk about it later. And the strategic thing. Don’t ever talk about it later. Don’t bring it up.
https://youtube.com/shorts/txDvx6YrT6w
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” Now, it’s impossible to have peace when someone is trying to oppress you and they are legit trying to distress you. That is their goal. They’re going to cause problems no matter what. So Jesus says, one strategic way to protect ourselves is to agree with them. Do it with an apathetic, disinterested stance toward them.
Abusers want one of two things. They either want to exploit us, so they want us to do what they want, to our detriment. And if they can’t get that, a juicy fight will do. They enjoy our distress.
Strategic Responses to Manipulation
Anne: So when we won’t do what they want, we also don’t engage in an argument or conversation about it. And give them the impression that they can’t get our attention. That’s one way to protect ourselves. With the man at the singles event, after I said what I said, I walked off in peace, happily.
So here are some examples with your husband. Let’s say your husband says something like, you don’t respect me and you never listen to me. Again, rather than proving to him how you do listen to him saying things like, what are you talking about? I always ask your opinion before I spend more than $50. What are you talking about? I double checked with you before I did this thing, instead of doing that. A Jesus approved strategic response might be something like, huh, I hadn’t thought about that.
Oh, I told Betsy that I’d go visit her. I’ve got to go to the neighbor’s. I’ll be back in about an hour. A distracted, I’m busy doing something else is the strategic way to separate yourself from that type of emotional and psychological abuse. Because remember he wants the chaos. He wants to drum it up.
So here’s another example of how to set boundaries with your husband. Let’s say he uses your own values to trap you into exploiting you. He might say, if you cared about our family, you would, and then state the thing he’s trying to manipulate you to do. Here is the agree with an adversary quickly version of a response. That’s something for me to think about. I’m going to go wash the car. I’ll be back when I’m done with my errands. Can I pick anything up for you at the store while I’m out?
Living with an Abuser: What Does Jesus Say About Abuse? Fireproof Suit
Anne: No matter what, they are on fire, and you can’t do anything to put the fire out, unfortunately. But this is to protect yourself as much as possible. If you’re living with the abuser, this is like putting on a fireproof suit. Now, I found that not being able to just be myself felt very suffocating and exhausting, and I did not want to live with a fireproof suit on all the time. So I ended up escalating my boundaries. The Bible also says a lot about boundaries in marriage.
Some of you might feel that wearing this fireproof suit is your safest option. Whatever you choose is the right thing for you. But this strategy can be applied whether you’re married and still living in the home. Or separating or divorced with any type of unsafe person when they’re trying to get power over you. It’s a good strategy to use to protect yourself. Jesus says about abusers to agree quickly with our adversary, or to be a peacemaker for our own safety. It’s not to benefit him whatsoever.
You don’t have to actually agree with him to agree with an adversary. This, oh, I need to think about that, hmm, you have a point. Will give you enough space to determine what level of safety you actually have. Then you can evolve and try again, just like the Living Free Strategies teach.
Living Free Workshop Principles
Anne: Those who have enrolled in the Living Free Workshop will know exactly what I’m talking about, because this is one of the principles in there. Again, in the Living Free Workshop itself, I don’t teach this with scriptures. It’s in a completely secular context. There is like an appendix at the back, if you’re interested in my personal scripture study and where I came up with some of these strategies based on what Jesus said about abuse.
I wanted to hit on that strategy. I’d love to know what you think about it. You can scroll to the bottom, I’d love to hear your comments. Let me know what you think.
How To Deal With Narcissistic Abuse In Marriage – Ingrid’s Story
Aug 05, 2025
If you never thought you’d have to deal with narcissistic abuse in marriage, you’re not alone. To see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse you’ll experience from a narcissist, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Gaslighting makes you doubt your memory, instincts, and even your sanity. You start asking, “Is it really that bad?” That’s by design.
2. He makes big promises—and never follows through.
Future faking sounds like: “We’ll go to Italy next year” or “I’m applying for jobs tomorrow.” It’s all smoke and mirrors designed to keep you hooked.
3. You’re carrying the entire relationship.
If you’re paying the bills, managing the emotions, and making excuses for his behavior—you’re being exploited, not partnered.
4. Therapy made things worse.
Couples therapy often misses narcissistic abuse. When the abuser charms the therapist, you walk away feeling more confused and blamed.
5. You think choosing yourself is selfish.
Survivors of narcissistic abuse in marriage often struggle with guilt. But choosing you isn’t selfish—it’s survival. And it’s the first step toward freedom.
Transcript: How To Deal With Narcissistic Abuse In Marriage
Anne: I have Ingrid Clayton on today’s episode. She’s a clinical psychologist and trauma therapist in Los Angeles, California, and the author of the memoir, Believing Me. Welcome, Ingrid.
Ingrid: Thank you so much, Anne. So happy to be here.
Anne: Ingrid, let’s start at the beginning of your story.
Ingrid: Wow, for me, it goes back to my childhood. So my parents divorced. And my mother rapidly remarried my dad’s best friend. That already sets the stage of the first betrayal. And this man, I can now use this language. This is not language I had for a long time, but he started to groom me. And what I now know set me up to please, appease and do everything I could to keep myself safe in a very unsafe environment.
So with my first husband, with so many boyfriends before him. My blueprint was, I will find a way to keep myself safe in an unsafe relationship. So my memoir is about me unpacking decades of that experience.
Sort of untangling it as a survivor, but also as a therapist who didn’t know that she had complex trauma. Because as we know. With narcissism, it’s decades of gaslighting and I believed it wasn’t that bad. Maybe it’s me, and if I try a little harder, you know, all those things.
Anne: So when you say blueprint, you didn’t know that you were continuing to encounter abusive people. What labels did you give them back when you were unaware of the type of character these people had?
Ingrid: I don’t think I would have used the word abusive, that felt too strong. But I saw there was a pattern, I saw they were dysfunctional relationships.
Patterns Of Dysfunctional Relationships
Ingrid: I went and sat on many therapist couches. And a lot of the language given back to me, things like codependency. I couldn’t see myself in that label, this idea that I was trying to control. There was this lens that felt shameful and stigmatizing, and that also didn’t feel like it helped me. So I kept going and trying. And I thought maybe one day it would shift. Meanwhile, there was just a lot of wreckage, and I didn’t know why.
And the narcissistic abuse always presented a little differently. It was active alcoholism, someone who was compulsively cheating on me, exploitation, financially and otherwise. It looked differently in each relationship, but I certainly saw the thread. And it was so painful. So devastating.
Anne:This is why you’re not codependent, you were doing safety seeking behaviors. While you were sitting on those therapy couches, did any of the therapists say the word abuse to you?
Ingrid: Gosh, it’s a good question. I know none of them used the word trauma, which was the piece that finally became so helpful to me. They may have used the word abuse in relation to my upbringing. So here’s the other part of my story. Growing up, I went to the counselor at my then high school. Eventually, I said, here are all the things happening. I think this is wrong. And she said, “I’m a mandated reporter. And we need to call social services.”
So it turned into what was essentially me initiating this intervention on my family. I was about 16 at the time, but if we rewind even further, maybe 12 years old, a friend’s parents had called social services on my behalf.
Intervention & Family Betrayal
Ingrid: And they orchestrated this sort of secret meeting with me and a social worker. She sat me down with her clipboard, and this seemed like this formal way. And asked me all these questions. She wanted to know where’s the physical abuse. And I was like, I know he’s hit my mom, but I’ve never seen it. I didn’t have the words. I’ve just seen her bruises. I know he’s done this to my brothers, but it wasn’t about physical abuse.
And at 12 years old, this woman said to me, emotional abuse isn’t reportable.
Anne: Wow.
Ingrid: Okay, so I get to 16 years old, and here we are. I have a counselor who’s taking me seriously, and she’s said, I’m a mandated reporter, we gotta bring social services in here. And what happened then is, they brought my stepdad in and he said, Ingrid, You’re a liar. You made this all up. I have no idea what you’re talking about. This is all a figment of your imagination.
And then we turned to my mom, who basically said, I believe him. So this is such a big piece of the trauma landscape, right? There’s the, what happened to us. And then there’s how people responded to what happened to us. In fact, a deeper cut as far as I’m concerned, in my personal experience. I knew what my stepdad was doing was wrong, but I believed the people meant to protect me and help me were going to do that.
Ingrid: And when they didn’t. Not consciously, but in my body, I started to believe, particularly when my own mother wasn’t able to step in and protect me.
Narcissistic Abuse In Marriage: Struggles With Self-Worth
Ingrid: I must not be worthy of protection, love, safety, so it’s this additional layer to what informed me going out into the world. I wasn’t experiencing physical abuse in any of my relationships. So it’s not like I went to a therapist and said, Oh, you know, here’s my experience. And they were trying to reflect that back to me as abusive. I was talking about cheating or unavailability, but I don’t think they were using that language.
Anne: They discounted you to the point where you thought you were not worthy of protection. But was there also a part of you that thought, maybe this isn’t abuse? Not understanding what narcissistic abuse in relationships is made it hard to identify. Like, maybe I’m making a mountain out of a molehill, or maybe I’m crazy, or maybe this is my fault?
Ingrid: I would say both things became true. This is where I picked up on those story lines, and I wasn’t sure. I never thought I made it all up. So it’s not like I thought I was a liar. I knew what happened, but I did wonder, and this is so classic for complex trauma survivors, was it that bad? Like we all walk around with this trauma measuring stick. I can think of someone else who had it worse. So suddenly mine doesn’t really count.
The thing that we know about trauma is that it’s not even about the traumatic event. It’s how the traumatic event overwhelmed your nervous system. So this whole idea about a measuring stick related to the event is just ludicrous anyway. But honestly, I wasn’t the only one carrying that measuring stick around. I think therapists in the mental health field carried it similarly for many years.
The Journey To Self-Discovery
Ingrid: You know, trauma was related to acute single events. It was related to veterans, which meant it was largely related to men. I’m 50 years old now. So I grew up when we didn’t have as much information. And consequently, even my own training as a clinical psychologist. I mean, I’ve been practicing in the field for almost two decades, and that didn’t give me the lens and language either for trauma from narcissistic abuse.
And the story of my memoir is that I have to become my own trauma therapist. And I’m just sitting at my kitchen table, writing these stories, reclaiming them again. So that I could look on the page and see for myself, this was narcissistic abuse. I didn’t have that lens or language either. I’m so grateful that I received this call to write in this fast and furious way that wouldn’t let me go no matter how much I tried.
I also think it’s the most heartbreaking thing. I’ve been asking for help since I was a little girl, and I had to wrestle it for myself all alone at my kitchen table.
Anne: All of my listeners would relate. Every one of them, because they didn’t know they were surviving narcissistic abuse in their marriage. They did what they were supposed to do and resisted oppression. They were resisting the abuse. And they didn’t know that’s what they were resisting, but so they went for help, right? They went to clergy. They went to their therapist, and it wasn’t named trauma.
Misguided Therapy Approaches
Anne: Instead, maybe in couple therapy, for example, they’re told, okay, let’s improve your communication strategies. Let’s figure out how to …
Ingrid: Knit this relationship back together, I think that’s unfortunate. A couple comes to them and they’re saying, we’re having difficulty. There’s this idea in couples therapy. Obviously they’re coming, because they want to work on the relationship. They probably believe it’s salvageable. And as an individual therapist, I had to call my client’s couples therapist. Do not mistake her boyfriend’s ability to charm you in session for this being a repairable, healthy, relationship.
Anne: The victim does not know that she’s a victim of narcissistic abuse.
Ingrid: That’s right.
Anne: And the perpetrator is never going to be like, hey, I’m a perpetrator.
Ingrid: I’m the problem, yeah.
Anne: He’s never going to say that.
Ingrid: That’s right. Yeah, it’s a painful reality that we ask for help and the help is not helpful. Oftentimes it’s even more harmful.
Anne: Yeah, it’s really hard. So let’s talk about your relationship before you understood it was abuse, what did you think was going on?
Ingrid: I want to start by saying that I felt like marriage was the thing that would give me the stamp of approval that would finally make me okay. So if I wasn’t chosen by my parents, I had this deep need to be chosen by somebody else. It’s another aspect of the blinders I had on.
Not Knowing The Red Flags Of Narcissistic Abuse In Marriage
Ingrid: And so when I met my ex-husband, there were signs. You know, what other people would call red flags. So I saw these things, but simultaneously did not see them. So I was racing towards this finish line of wanting and needing to be married.
Anne: You mentioned that desire to belong. Was it also external? Did you grow up in a religious setting where marriage was part of the equation to happiness did that idea of marriage also come from an external source?
Ingrid: Yeah, I mean, look at every movie and TV commercial, right, it’s everything I grew up with and experienced. This even going to graduate school as a woman and getting my PhD. You would talk to people, and you would tell them about your studies, and they would be like, Oh, so tell me about your relationship status. It didn’t matter what else I was doing. I felt like I was still sitting at the kid’s table, the kid’s table of Thanksgiving, until I was partnered up.
So it was a million subtle cues from the larger environment that, of course, impacted what was also this internal trauma response, right? Like this need, this drive to be validated, and it attached itself to this idea of marriage. And actually when we got engaged, my ex-husband wanted to be an actor, and he wasn’t working. And we entered into this arrangement of living together.
It was like suddenly he just started pulling back more and more. Where it’s like he’s not contributing to our overhead. But the mask he continued to wear more overtly was, we are the happiest loving couple ever. People see our energy, and they’re so jealous of our love.
Graduate School & Financial Exploitation
Ingrid: Right, this sort of love bombing slash sort of future faking. Like it’s gonna be so amazing. So the overt mask was still we’re incredible. But simultaneously, he starts not contributing to our bills. And I’m saying like, what would you do if you were living alone? You know, wouldn’t you feel like you had to be responsible for yourself?
Because at the time I’m in graduate school, I’m living on student loans. I certainly wasn’t taking out student loans to support another person who just stopped working. So I would bring these things up in this very sort of neutral way. Hey, you know, I see this happening. And if he didn’t immediately like agree or change. It was like, okay, I brought it up. He says he wants to work. He says he’s trying, so I guess that has to be enough.
So I just start to swallow it down and accommodate what is his really financial exploitation. You know, fast forward to where we got engaged. And he proposed with this little silver, um, like a dime store ring as like a placeholder for an engagement ring. And we went shopping for an engagement ring, and we get to the counter and see this one, and isn’t it amazing, right?
Like, I feel like I’m living in this, uh, jewelry commercial, you know, it’s like, here it is. Is this the one? He turns to me in front of the salesperson and says, if you put it on your credit card, I’ll make all the payments. And I was devastated. And embarrassed. I thought, what does even the salesperson think of me right now? A, that I’m being put in this position, and B, I’m about to hand over my credit card.
Discovering The Truth
Ingrid: And I know that in my body, it’s like, no one can ever know. So that’s part of what allowed me to know there was abuse. My ex-husband pretended he wasn’t pretending. That’s like our whole relationship, I was like, okay, I’m going to hand over my credit card. And of course he never made a payment. We never brought it up again.
Eventually, I came to see that he was probably drinking and smoking pot all day in our apartment when I was off at work. And I am a recovering alcoholic. I almost have 30 years of sobriety now. I forget what it was then, but I had a lot of time under my belt. So I know alcoholism, right? I grew up also with addiction. And I knew that I was uncomfortable with some of his drinking. I literally didn’t know that he was using to the extent he was.
So just all the secrecy, the lies, and the layers of deceit, it just started to pile up. Until it was only a year into marriage. I’d never had this conscious thought before, but suddenly I knew I had to open the hall closet. And open the hall closet door. I saw a suitcase tucked behind like boots and all kinds of things.
Again, never a conscious thought, but my body knew you got to open the closet. Drag that suitcase out from the back, open it up, and there were all the vodka bottles. So, I finally had this evidence, this, oh my gosh, this is part of what’s going on. I Even if I didn’t have a label, I knew what narcissistic abuse in my marriage looked like.
Choosing Self Over An Abusive Narcissistic Relationships
Ingrid: And it wasn’t something he could talk me out of. Like, oh yeah, I’m trying to work, and oh, I’m getting a job tomorrow, whatever it was. It was like, I had this concrete thing, and eventually it was part of what enabled me to say, I can’t do this. And in a strange way, I look at divorce as probably the beginning of the healing of my complex trauma. Instead of waiting and hoping for someone to choose me.
And I did it with the marriage, but then I was like, he’s going to choose me again by getting a job, right? Like, he’s going to choose me again by quitting drinking, right? He wants to get sober. He wants to live this life that he’s been promising me. Like he talked the best game ever. I believed those words. And so I thought, doesn’t he believe them too? Like he will show up for that.
And finally I said, I can’t keep waiting for someone else to choose me. I have to do it even though no one else ever did.
Ingrid: I had to choose me, and that’s what I did in my divorce, and that puts a nice bow on it, which is a true one. I believe I got so much freedom through walking away. But it’s not to say it wasn’t excruciating, because simultaneously, I believed in my then late 30s that I blew it. This was my one chance to have a family, the thing I always wanted. It seemed like instead of getting that stamp of approval, I was wearing the scarlet letter, the thing that said, damaged goods.
Resisting Abuse
Ingrid: What I had to wade through in terms of that pain and shame was enormous, and yet it was one of the first things that really freed me from narcissistic abuse.
Anne: Yeah, we heal so much through choosing ourselves. Around here, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I just call it resisting. Because you were thinking, if I do what he says, I don’t want to do this. But if I agree, if I hand over my credit card right now, maybe it will make it better. This is the only thing to do to get out of the situation in that moment. It is a form of resistance, because you’re thinking, this is what I need to do to get this over with. Or, this is how I work through this.
Because we don’t have a framework for, Oh, I just walk out of the jewelry store. No one’s given us that framework for a solution. Because that doesn’t feel safe either. Because he might get angry, there might be all sorts of other consequences.
Ingrid: That’s right.
Anne: So it’s a way to resist abuse. Understanding that victims are doing the best they can with what they have. And also with the level of education about abuse they have at the time.
Ingrid: Yeah, these aren’t conscious at all. It’s the body’s instinctual response to safety. It’s the last house on the block. Because if you can’t fight back, if you can’t run, guess what? Appeasing and pleasing is resistance, it is an adaptive response. To be in, and listen, it’s not just abusive, any marginalized community, any sort of power structure where someone has power over you. It’s a highly adaptive response to narcissistic abuse in a marriage.
Reclaiming Self-Worth
Ingrid: I am a smart person, right? I asked for help, so the other reason I think it’s important for me to address it as a trauma response. Because what that means in terms of my healing is the nervous system. It’s not going and sitting on a couch and talking about it forever. That in fact kept me stuck. It’s working with a part of the brain that was offline. We need to work with solutions that work with the body when it comes to trauma.
It’s why actually I don’t like the words, people pleasing or control. My motivations were never to please, and they were never to control.
Anne: Exactly.
Ingrid: I was trying to stay safe in an unsafe situation. I was trying to survive. Of course, boundaries made sense intellectually. Of course, I can understand those things. They were not available in my body. It’s another layer of gaslighting essentially because it’s telling me, oh, it’s so easy and what’s the big deal?
And it must be you. It must be you. This idea that we are intrinsically broken, and I believe we are beyond not broken. It’s a genius adaptation. I look at the ways we have threaded the needle of safety in the trickiest of environments. And I go, that is brilliant. There’s a literal brilliance to it. And so my hope is that we can take back the brilliance and genius adaptation and hold onto that. Even as I say those words, I feel like self-esteem is rushing into my body.
Narcissistic abuse in marriage robs you of so much. I go, I am not broken. I am brilliant. And I don’t want to live in a chronic trauma response anymore.
Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: Future Faking In Relationships
Ingrid: We are meant to have more freedom and flexibility. So we have to start with taking the shame and stigma out of experiences where we’re literally just surviving. The environments in which we live.
Anne: And for that reason, I like saying resisting because you were doing something active to protect yourself. It was the best thing you knew at the time. You were doing it instinctively. Think about how smart and powerful, and how awesome you’ve always been. You mentioned future faking. I realized I’ve never done an episode about future faking or gone into depth about it. Can we go there for a second?
Ingrid: The way I experienced it. Despite my ex-husband’s literal inability to show up for this life, he talked such a good game. Like, you want to go to Italy, we’re going to go to Italy. Let’s start saving for Italy now, he said. Let’s open a savings account where we just put money in for this trip to Italy. And I’m like another form of financial exploitation. But it’s also an aspect of this future faking. We’re going to do all these amazing things.
It’s presenting your hopes and dreams and literally saying it out loud. It feels so tangible. Someone to meet us, validate us, to say, yes, we’re going to do this together. It’s so compelling. It was to me. And even though he didn’t bring much to the marriage, it hooked me. It’s another aspect of sometimes hoovering even, right? Of saying all the things you want to hear to get you back into the relationship.
Breaking Free From Emotional Abuse
Ingrid: It’s going to be different. I’m doing all these things. And he did that too, like I’m going to get sober. And I went to a meeting. I went and took an application. And they were one-time events that he did just enough to show me. Similar to opening the savings account. It’s I’m going to tell you, in fact, that you can expect all these things to happen. And then I’m not going to do anything other than this little thing to get you to change your mind.
Anne: Abusers are transactional. Like a machine, and their words are like quarters. So he thinks all I need to do is put this quarter in. I say, Hey, let’s go to Italy. That’s a tactic of narcissistic abuse. I put this in, and then beep boop out comes what I want her to do. They don’t see us as human people. More of this is a transaction, and I say this, and I get this back.
Ingrid: I would even say calling it a quarter is giving it too much credit. I mean, it’s like a wooden nickel. It’s all smoke and mirrors. It’s part of what also creates, you know, the fog of emotional abuse. You can’t tell what’s real. I had to stop listening to what my stepdad said happened, what my mom wanted to believe happened, what my ex husband said he was doing or going to do. Almost at any cost, I had to prioritize my own experience, my own feelings over anybody else.
Anne: You’re very brave. You did it!
Ingrid: Yeah, I feel like my whole life has been trying to wrestle me back. And I’m mostly just grateful that I don’t live there now.
Finding A Healthy Relationship
Ingrid: I don’t question my worth. I question my sanity. I know what I know. And I know what a reciprocal relationship feels like. I have a husband who has never lied to me. And you talk to people who don’t have experience of abuse. And they’re like, that’s just normal. Of course, you should expect that, and guess what? I never had a relationship where I could say that before. I never knew what that felt like in my body.
In my first marriage, the closer we got to the altar, the more I was like, I don’t know that I’m doing the right thing. And then I could lean on, this is what happens, it’s cold feet. I look back and I go, that was not cold feet, that was wisdom bubbling up to the surface. And I don’t know that every “healthy marriage” isn’t hard. But I can tell you the contrast is remarkable in my personal experience, it’s night and day.
And I will also say the difference in how it felt when we met was remarkably different. I was so used to the feeling of someone having power over me. And I think this is common. We can mistake that unsettled feeling of nervous system dysregulation for butterflies. It’s so exciting, right? I genuinely thought that was healthy chemistry. I was like, Oh, I got that feeling. Now I know that’s a dysregulated nervous system.
So when I met my now husband, who was so kind, I felt so at ease in his presence. I walked away and I was like, he would probably be a great friend. And I just assumed there would be nothing romantic. Because I didn’t have that old like fireworks, crazy chaos thing.
Marriage Isn’t Supposed To Be Hard: Navigating Challenges Together Without Abuse
Ingrid: And over time. I got to see, this is what it feels like to be seen and respected. And to not feel like someone has power over me. But that we’re literally building something together. And it’s what it’s felt like this entire time. I will say that does not mean there haven’t been hard times. We became parents, and parenting brings up all kinds of stuff. Like, how will we pay that bill or navigate these different things?
It’s going to kick some dust up, life is still in session. But he’s my person that I can turn to when the dust gets kicked up. He’s not kicking the dust up in my face and going, what’s the matter with you? So we go through the hard times together, even when that means maybe I’m triggered and dysregulated. And I’m having a hard time.
And he can say a genuine, can you take care of yourself? Like, because I’m going to take care of myself and come back. And then we’re going to have a conversation where I’m in my right mind.
Anne: But at no point, I’m guessing, during that time, did he suggest you were crazy.
Ingrid: Never, no, of course not. Yeah, very different.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop
Anne: I talk so much about the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. You can get more information by clicking the link. Living Free is designed to help you regulate your nervous system through thought strategies.So that you can actually implement communication and boundary strategies to protect yourself. And that piece of the puzzle is so important. The workshop helps teach women those strategies, and then our coaches help women actually implement them.
Ingrid: A hundred percent, it’s a process, and it’s not always graceful. It’s not always linear. But if you are engaged in it, that is the bravest, hardest, but also most rewarding thing we can ever do. It’s worth it.
Anne: It’s worth it, and you’re worth it. Thank you so much, Ingrid, for spending the time to talk with me today.
Ingrid: My pleasure. Thank you so much.
How To Recover After Being Cheated On – Shelly’s Story
Jul 29, 2025
One of the first and most powerful steps in understanding how to recover after being cheated on is naming what’s actually happening. Many women don’t have the words at first. Lies, secrecy, and deceit separate you from your own sense of reality, leaving you to wonder: Is it me? Am I overreacting? Is this normal? That confusion is part of betrayal trauma.
The truth is, betrayal trauma is real, and naming it doesn’t make the pain bigger, it validates it.If you’re wondering how to recover after being cheated on, Shelly’s story proves you’re not alone, and healing is possible. Support your healing with Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Group Sessions.
7 Things Every Woman Should Know About How to Recover After Being Cheated On
Are you trying to recover after your husband cheated on you? If he cheats on you, his lies, secrecy and deceit separate you from your own sense of reality. Here are seven things women need to know about this.
1. Recovery begins with identification.
Betrayal trauma is what you’re experiencing. Naming it helps connect the dots between what happened and how it affected you.
2. Intimate lies are domestic abuse.
The harm doesn’t start once you find out about his cheating. It begins when he starts deceiving you. Recovery begins with accepting this truth.
3. Your body will tell you the truth.
Many women experiencing betrayal trauma have physical symptoms like insomnia, stomach issues, chronic pain. Your body always resists, even if your mind doesn’t quite understand what’s happening.
4. Recovery isn’t about him even though the need to recover is entirely about him.
Recovery takes knowing how to focus on our own emotional safety. Take ourfree emotional abuse quiz to find out if you are a victim.
5. Self-compassion is a turning point.
Recovery means treating yourself like you would treat a friend.
6. Ignore bad advice.
People might tell you to just move on or don’t give away your power. That’s not helpful if you’re trying to heal from this type of trauma.
7. The right support makes recovery from this type of trauma possible.
Anne: I have Shelly, a member of our community, back on today’s episode. I interviewed her six months ago. I asked her to come back and check in. And let me know how she’s doing now. Welcome back, Shelly.
Shelly: So we’re at about a year and a half now since the initial D-Day and it’s still difficult, but we’re still together. We’re still working through things. I’ve had no more D-Days since the four or five months of D-Days I had. Nothing new has come to light. But it’s hard. That’s sort of where I am at the moment.
Anne: Will you talk about any epiphanies that you’ve had as you’ve been learning how to recover after being cheated on.
Shelly: There’s been a lot of deepening in my understanding of objectification, as a social issue, and the conditioning everywhere. Society subjects men and women to that conditioning. How human souls are made into objects and literally sold for the purpose of use in a sexual way. And it’s dark. Last time, I gave you a bit of a backstory. There’s a long line of betrayal trauma history in my life, being born into that. And for me, understanding my own power and choice has been freeing.
Eighteen Months Into Healing: What Recovery After Being Cheated On Looks Like
Anne: Like how did you see it before and how are you seeing it now?
Shelly: So listening to our original podcast the emotions I felt. When I was going back, to when I was young, and then when I was in an abusive relationship. It wasn’t a relationship. I was a victim of abuse in my teens with a much older man. The emotions I felt then were quite powerless. Just listening to that, it felt powerless. Whereas when I fast forward to now. I can feel there’s a difference. Like, I have choice. I didn’t realize that I had choice then. Like I didn’t understand it.
I wouldn’t say naive, because I wouldn’t understand because I was so young and being coerced in such a horrific way, that I didn’t see anything beyond that. Whereas now my adult self understands all this stuff. And actually, through everything I’ve listened to on your podcast and understanding that betrayal is abuse. I feel the foundation now that I didn’t have before, an understanding of what betrayal trauma is, where I’m standing in a place of power and knowing how to recover after being cheated on. I’m in a different space. I felt that, just listening through my own story in the podcast that we did before.
Anne: For our listeners, we recorded this the same day her previous episode aired. So she listened to it and now we’re talking. It’s a different type of experience than talking with a coach, therapist or group session. Because you’re listening to yourself from the outside in a way that you wouldn’t normally. Can you talk about your experience as you listened to yourself share your story on the podcast.
Listening to Yourself: A Surprising Step in How to Recover After Being Cheated On
Anne: Do you feel like it enabled you to feel for yourself in a way that you hadn’t before?
Shelly: I do actually, because I disconnected so much. I had a strong sense of dissociation before. And that has changed. I feel it is important, because that’s reconnecting to the self. Where the dissociation was before, it was like someone else’s life that I recounted or told a story about somebody else’s life or a different lifetime. It didn’t feel connected to me.
So having that connection back and feeling those emotions for my own story is important. In being whole, and rebuilding myself, it was helpful. I felt really emotional. I felt the heartbreak for myself. And I have empathy for myself, which is a strange concept. I feel for myself, my own story. I was able to release it.
Anne: I imagine it will take you a while to process hearing your own story. It’s not like you’re gonna have all the epiphanies all at once. It will happen over time. But I think it’s beneficial for women to hear themselves and recognize how human they are. If they heard someone else share the story, how much compassion they would feel for that person, and love and lack of judgment.
Shelly: Exactly.
Anne: It might be something they’ve never experienced for themselves before, partially due to all the abuse they experienced. The abuse in and of itself separates us from ourselves. That’s how abusers manipulate their victims. Abusers do not want us to process it in a way that we can feel or understand it.
Why Seeing Things As They Really Are helps and shows how to recover After Being Cheated On
Shelly: Yeah, they disempower you, so you haven’t got the power to step out of it, change it, or even see it. Having that compassion for yourself and hearing it as if you are listening to a friend is huge. I’ve always struggled with self-love. I completely understand why now, because it’s been throughout my entire life. Hearing that if I was sitting with a friend and told me my story, I would have nothing but love for her.
What I’m dealing with right now is that I’m heavily processing the current stuff with my current partner all the time, which has such a huge impact on me every day. Things still trigger me. There are still moments where it feels overwhelmingly hard.
Anne: In the past, you didn’t understand what was happening to you, so processing it in real time was not available to you in any way, shape or form. But processing your situation now that you have the information in real time, you can talk to other women. You went to BTR group sessions. You can process it, which makes a difference.
Shelly: Yeah, that’s definitely part of it. I’m also aware of positive coping mechanisms that I’m doing. There’s a general sense of awareness I wouldn’t have had before.
Anne: Once you’re aware, you can start looking at it more objectively in terms of not being manipulated like we were before.
Shelly: Yeah.
Anne: Which helps us make better decisions in the long run. It takes a minute to figure out how we feel and what we wanna do. We’re just a lot more capable of making decisions that are in our best interest when we have this type of information. It’s just impossible without it.
Embracing the Hard Truth that Sets You Free: His Cheating Isn’t About You
Shelly: Yeah, learning how to recover after being cheated on is like being in a dark room with a blindfold on and then suddenly walking out into the light and seeing everything for what it actually is.
Anne: How has that felt? Being able to see things for what they really are?
Shelly: It’s liberating. I’m glad that I see now, but it’s painful process. I wouldn’t change it.
Anne: I think some women, and I was one of them, want to unsee it a little bit, ’cause it is so painful. But once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And so there isn’t anywhere to go but forward.
Shelly: Yeah, I understand wishing to unsee it. I can totally get that, because it’s such a traumatic thing to go through. I’m glad I’m not living in the dark anymore. I’m glad I’m not living in an illusion of this perfect fairytale in my head. I would never want anyone to go through this. But I’m glad that I’m now living informed as to who I’m with and where I am.
Anne: It doesn’t give any instructions in terms of like pack a bag and move out. Nothing like that. It’s more safety principles and how to get enough space to observe.
Shelly: Yes, I loved the group sessions. Feeling that connection with people, seeing the same faces, feeling familiar with the coach. Each coach had a different sort of energy and beauty about the way they held the space. I found that helpful. I remember in one of my shares talking about how this has affected me and my self perception, my physical self perception.
Getting Beauty treatments to feel better physically
Shelly: I basically started to starve myself. Because all the women he was looking at. He disclosed they were all thinner than me. Some of them were younger than me. Some of them were actually older than me. But I started to really look at myself. I had very low self-esteem anyway, but this completely smashed any esteem I had about myself. And getting beauty treatments, anything that I could just to feel better physically. And in this one particular group, I shared that.
Many of the women started to cry and could completely understand, completely resonated with what I was saying. I found that so devastatingly sad that this is one of the consequences of their behavior. Their choices impact the way we internalize, or think, we think it’s because of us. It all boils down to that belief, I’m not enough. Having that connection, not feeling alone, and not feeling like I’m the only one doing this. It was powerful, but equally heartbreaking. Actually across the world, this is something that is happening to women after experiencing something like that.
Anne: I think it brings it home that it’s not about us. To see that so many women have been exploited in that way, manipulated in that way, is so heartbreaking to realize how systemic it is.
Shelly: Yeah, my partner, I remember having a conversation with him. “I cannot understand how you could look into my eyes at the end of the day, knowing that you’d done that.” He said, “I just thought, what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her.”
Keeping secrets is the root of the pain in between. The damage that’s caused in a relationship, not having transparency.
Secrecy is Abuse: how to Recover after Being Cheated On
Shelly: That as soon as you’re doing something that you know will hurt your partner, you’re already hurting them.
Anne: Right.
Shelly: Whether they know it or not.
Anne: And just the absolute lack of understanding that not giving your partner a choice. Using deceit is abuse. It’s control, it’s harmful, and you’re already hurting her if you are not giving her a choice in her own life.
Shelly: Exactly, I did not know who I was with. I had the image of who I thought he was. Who he was saying he was. I did not know the person I was with, and I didn’t have free choice in that.
Anne: Exactly, and for any man to think that sounds okay is horrifying. I guess there could be women who feel this way, but I don’t know of any woman at BTR who would feel comfortable, thinking her husband didn’t know. Unless it was for her own safety, saving some money, as in classic domestic abuse escape strategies. Women in general who are victims of abuse, before they understand they are, would feel bad, thinking their husband didn’t know something he needed to know.
I think that’s why it’s just so incomprehensible to us that somebody would’ve made these choices for us and completely disrespected us in this way.
Shelly: It’s dishonoring someone’s soul that you’re professing to love. That is not love. It’s dishonoring me. Betraying me. There were lies about other things. There were lies about money. It’s not honoring the person you love. And I can’t consolidate those two things in my head, or in my heart and that was a part of learning how to recover after being cheated on.
My mind is still on high alert
Shelly: Because if I love someone, then I’m gonna honor them by not doing things that hurt them. I won’t do that.
Anne: I’m so sorry about everything you’re going through. The time you’re in right now is so difficult, trying to sort out what to do next. And learn how to recover after being cheated on.
Shelly: Yeah, I’m still on high alert a lot of the time, which is exhausting. I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. And I’d rid myself of constant pain and fatigue, and lived my life in a happy space. So since all this came out, all the symptoms of Fibromyalgia flared back up again. If anything else came to light, that would be it. I couldn’t physically do it or emotionally stay within the relationship. Because I have nothing more that I can possibly give beyond what I’ve already given, beyond what I’m giving now. I can’t just relax.
Anne: That’s absolutely understandable.
Shelly: It’s logical, isn’t it? If someone can spend so many years lying to you. There’s always a chance they’re going to do that again. I still am not in a place where I can say I fully trust him. My mind is still trying to protect me, questioning, why won’t my husband fight for our marriage? I’m still on high alert, and I don’t know however long it takes or what that’s gonna look like to heal.
Anne: I’m interested in seeing what you think of Living Free, because the intent was to help women feel they don’t have to work so hard. ‘Cause I’m hearing that in your voice. This exhaustion, of the process of seeing if he’s gonna make the right decisions.
The Living Free Workshop is intended to reduce women’s burden
Anne: So the Living Free Workshop is intended to reduce that burden. And help women observe, so that the burden is all on him and not on us.
Shelly: I definitely feel it. I’m definitely carrying it.
Anne: So the strategy of Living Free is learning to give ourselves enough space. So that we can live our lives, be peaceful, happy and observe. It teaches how to recover after being cheated on. And not carry the weight of it. If you want to come back and share your feedback.
Shelly: I very much would like to do that.
Anne: I will tell you a little bit about it. So it doesn’t overwhelm you.
The workbook comes with it. You can print it, I recommend women buy it on Amazon.
I wanted to see the two page spread layout. Which you don’t get to see if you print it on your own printer. But anyway, the Living Free Workshop is 55 lessons. They’re very short videos. Most of them are three minutes, and the shortest one is 30 seconds. So it’s tiny three minute increments to process it. The longest video is six minutes long. There’s only one that’s that long. There’s a question underneath, and if you don’t wanna answer it, you can just push an X and push enter and go to the next thing.
If you don’t wanna fill out the workbook, you don’t have to fill out the workbook, but it is good to have it in front of you, sitting there, so at least you can see what I’m talking about. So even if you’re not gonna fill it out, just having it in front of you helps.
Meditations help regulate your nervous system and show how to recover after being cheated on
Anne: I have a master’s degree in education. I set it up like that. So women have time to process how to recover after being cheated on in between each one. Especially with the self-esteem issues, to remove the manipulation and negative things that we’ve absorbed through their abuse and replace it with truth. Like, you’re beautiful, you’re capable.
Right now might be a great time for the Meditations to regulate your nervous system to help you feel more peaceful and centered. That’s what the Meditations do to help women who, like a lot of women, can’t sleep. They can’t stop thinking about it, that sort of thing. So to help get all that out. I wrote them for myself. Because talking about stuff at some point wasn’t that helpful for me. I talked about it so much.
So I wrote those meditations to help me, so that I could get all the stuff out without having to talk about it. ‘Cause I talk about this all day long, every single day, and I have for 10 years. So there had to have been something different for me. I’d say if you do the Meditations and then schedule the next interview, that way it can give you some time to think about, did it help?
Shelly: Yeah, definitely. You need to get this stuff out. That’s important. But I also think there is a point in your post traumatic growth where you have to go inward. Going in is also an important part of the healing process too. So yeah, I appreciate the access to those. It’s been crazy, it feels divine.
Anne: Totally. Thank you so much and I look forward to talking to you again soon.
Shelly: Yeah, thank you so much.
Think Shame Is the Cause of Cheating? Here’s the Truth
Jul 22, 2025
Does shame cause cheating—or is it just an excuse? Discover the real cause of cheating and why shame isn’t the reason your husband keeps lying.
If you’ve been told that shame is Cause of Cheating, It’s a Lie
Here’s the truth: Cheating is not a mysterious emotional accident. It’s a pattern. A predictable one. And if you’ve been caught in the confusion, these 7 myths will help you see it clearly.
1. “He cheats because he feels ashamed.”
Nope. Shame doesn’t cause cheating—it follows it.
He cheats, he lies, he gets caught… and then he feels bad. That’s not a root cause. That’s a consequence. Saying shame caused the betrayal is like blaming the fire alarm for the fire.
2. “He has an attachment disorder.”
This one gets used to flip the script: He just doesn’t feel emotionally connected.
But guess what? You can’t attach to someone who’s lying to you. Infidelity and porn use destroy connection. If he feels detached, that’s not a disorder—it’s the direct result of his own behavior.
3. “You shouldn’t shame him—it’ll make it worse.”
Translation: Don’t speak up. Don’t react. Don’t be upset.
This tactic silences victims. The moment you say, “This hurts me,” he yells, “Stop shaming me!” It’s just another way to dodge accountability and keep you in line.
4. “Religious people cheat more because of guilt.”
There’s a myth that religion causes more cheating because it adds shame. But research shows the opposite—religious people use porn less and cheat less. Guilt doesn’t drive betrayal. Choice does.
5. “You should support his recovery, So He’s not Ashamed”
You are not his recovery plan.
You’re allowed to be angry, to say, “No, I’m not safe here.” Supporting his so-called recovery doesn’t mean tolerating lies, manipulation, or repeat offenses.
6. “If you were more affectionate, he won’t Feel Shame ANd Then He wouldn’t cheat.”
Cheating is not a response to your behavior. It’s a habit he chose long before you found out.
You could be the most attentive, sexually available, emotionally present partner on the planet—and he’d still cheat if he wanted to. It’s not about you.
7. “If you Communicate His Shame Will Resolve.”
No, it’s not.
It’s a deception problem. A control problem. A lack-of-integrity problem.
Cheating isn’t caused by miscommunication—it’s caused by deliberate choices to lie, betray, and blame.
So What Is the Cause of Cheating?
It’s simple: he wants to do it. And he chooses to do it.
If he’s cheating, he’s not “broken.” He’s not “misunderstood.” He’s not “ashamed.” He’s doing what he wants—and using shame, attachment theories, and therapy language to get away with it.
If your husband continues to lie, gaslight, manipulate, and turn the tables on you about his behavior, understand that this is emotional and psychological abuse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: Does Shame Cause Cheating?
Anne: I recently saw a video floating around social media. It had an example of how to, “Not shame the addict.” This video put the addict in the position of victim. Where he felt more or less put upon by his wife or girlfriend. When she reacted to him, telling her he’d been lying to her and abusing her. When their boyfriend or husband says she’s the problem. This is ridiculous. Any victim of abuse can respond to her abuser in any way that she chooses. Does shame cause infidelity? No, it doesn’t.
If he changed, if he was “an addict in recovery.” He would understand that she’s the victim and he’s the perpetrator, and that she owes him nothing. I have Gary Wilson on the podcast today to talk about the facts. Shame does not cause addiction, that he is not a victim. In fact, the victims are the victims. If you are a victim of lies, infidelity, or abuse, you need to worry about your own safety, not whether you’re hurting your abuser’s feelings.
Gary and I will also talk about how addicts use the theory that they have an “attachment disorder” and expect you to attach with them so that they don’t look at this stuff online. That is not true. You are unable to attach to someone actively using it. And so if they’re trying to blame you for not attaching or saying, I didn’t feel attached, and so I used pornography. That is a way to manipulate you.
This podcast with Gary is super important, and I hope everyone will listen to every word of it. We had some sound problems. So say a little prayer that it won’t bother you too much.
Shame & Addiction: The Facts
Anne: And say, even though Gary’s microphone wasn’t working well and the connection was bad. Bless that I can hear this and process what he’s saying, that it can help me in my recovery.
He taught anatomy and physiology for years and has long been interested in the neurochemistry of addiction, mating, and bonding. The Society for the Advancement of Health presented Wilson with its Media Award for Outstanding Media Contributions and Public Education on Addiction.
Welcome, Gary.
Gary: Hey, it’s great to be here.
Anne: Okay, Gary, why is this shame causes infidelity and addiction theory so popular right now?
Gary: Addiction and shame are often intertwined, and that’s a separate issue. So shame might be associated with it’s use, or shame associated with just addiction. I can’t stop drinking alcohol, it’s ruining my life, and I’m in a shame and then binge cycle because I can’t stop. I think when we use the word shame we need to be very specific about what we’re talking about.
Anne: Is it true? Does shame cause infidelity or addiction?
Gary: No, shame doesn’t cause addiction. Let’s be real clear about this.
Neurological Studies On Addiction
Gary: Addiction has been studied for 60 years, and there are thousands and thousands of neurological studies. It started with animals, where they can induce addiction. Animals do not have shame. Then cut the brains open, they look at the brains, they see the brain changes. So thousands and thousands of rats, mice, even monkeys. And then recently starting to look at food addiction in animals.
And in the last 20 years, we’ve looked at the brain changes in humans that occur with both drug addiction and behavioral addiction, such as addiction, gambling addiction, food addiction, and internet addiction. These brain changes are pretty consistent. And the brain changes are then mirrored in the behavior. So the behaviors would be something like the compulsion to use, which has a lot of cravings, the inability to control use, you’re just out of control.
And you’re binging, continued use despite severe negative consequences. These are the behaviors that we associate with an addiction. People and animals mirror the brain changes that occur. So no, does shame cause infidelity or addiction related brain changes? Let’s just get that out of the way.
Anne: How is shame different than addiction?
Gary: Well, it’s just an emotion. You can have depression, you can have anxiety, you can feel bad. It’s very common for someone who has an addiction to have shame. In other words, they’re hurting themselves. They’re hurting those around them. They have shame because they won’t control themselves. That’s the shame associated with addiction. And that is separate. It should be kept separate.
No, Shame Does Not Cause Infidelity
Gary: I monitor these very large forums where we have primarily young men who are quitting online exploitation. One of them is called NoFap, and it has over 300, 000 members. They did a survey. They found that 62 percent of their members who are trying to quit are agnostic or atheist. So, no, does shame cause infidelity or addiction? No, it’s not about shame.
Anne: Why this is so important to me is because I remember a specific situation. My ex’s behaviors, were escalating out of control. He was becoming more abusive, and his dad came over and they prayed together in our basement. And then his dad left, and then he came up about an hour later. I said, how did it go with your dad? And he was like, fine, then after that prayer, I looked at it for an hour and masturbated.
And I sat down on our bed and said three words. “Whoa, that’s bad.” That’s all I said. Because I realized, holy cow, if he prays with his dad. Then immediately looks at it and masturbates, for over an hour, he’s way far gone. After I said those three words, he yelled, stop shaming me. He used it to silence me.
Anne: Let’s talk about the myth that religious people are more likely to be pornography addicts than non religious people. Because religious people would feel more shame about infidelity.
Gary: Well, there’s a couple of reasons it’s floating around. Often what’s cited is this study that found Utah was number one in use. It’s called Red Lights, Who Buys Online Adult Entertainment. It wasn’t about its use across all inappropriate media tube sites. It was looking at state by state subscriptions to one site out of thousands of sites.
My belief is this researcher looked and looked until he found a particular website whose subscriptions were higher in Utah than any other place. So it was a biased study. And people say, well, look, religious people use more or are more addicted. Well, no they’re not. Probably 25 studies have asked groups of people whether they religious or not. They have found that religious people use it at far lower rates than secular people.
So that means that being religious is protective against it’s use and thus protective against addiction, all studies. I’m saying this, all studies that have looked at individuals who check off the box, I’m religious, I’m not religious, all of them find less use among the religious.
And what’s interesting: a study looked at some of these three or four studies that look at states. And they say, well, red states, have a higher rate of Google inappropriate media searches. The suggestion in all these studies is that religious people are lying about their use in all these many studies. They looked at it, they found out they weren’t lying.
Studies & Their Flaws
In fact, religious people were more likely to tell the truth. So these studies that just looked at how much Google searches there are for inappropriate media in Utah, really do not show good data. They’re not representative, and they should be tossed away. The study said we should stop doing these type of studies. So the bottom line is religious people use it at a far lower rate, which means their addiction is at a far lower rate.
Anne: Now, I would like to point out that Gary is not religious.
Gary: Agnostic, yeah. As were my parents and as were my grandparents.
Anne: Right, so this is not a religious person telling us these studies. This is an agnostic, so they know where you’re coming from, which is what I appreciate about you. Why do you think, at least religious, people in Utah have glommed on to this study thing, as the does “shame cause infidelity” proof positive? So everybody’s walking on eggshells to try not to shame other people.
Gary: Yeah, not only Utah, but a lot of the popular media has glommed onto it, so that means Utah has. And we think of Utah, and we think of course, LDS. I have lots of friends who are LDS. They tell me shame is associated with it.
Gary: Joshua Grubbs, a former, a former very religious person, started to do studies. And in these studies, he had a questionnaire. It was a nine question questionnaire. And it was called the Compulsive Pornography Use Index. He found, using all nine of his questions, that religious people scored higher on this. So he named his nine questions “Perceived Addiction.”
Does Shame Cause Infidelity: Joshua Grubbs’ Questionnaire Results
Gary: And then the media took it and said, wow. Religious people believe they’re addicted when they’re not. But then when you look closely at the studies, you find that three of the questions were about shame and guilt. Addiction questionnaires for gambling, alcohol, meth and cocaine do not have questions about feeling guilt or shame after using drugs or nicotine.
What it did, when they looked at it closely, and several studies have since looked at it. They found that this particular questionnaire, because it is one third guilt and shame, caused religious people to score higher. So they said, oh, religious people are more addicted. But then when you remove those three questions, and just looked at his other six questions. So the basis of the “does shame cause infidelity” theory was tested.
You found that religious people really didn’t score higher. He created a questionnaire that was bogus. I’ve critiqued his work quite a bit and had conversations. He decided to try to disprove what I was saying. So he said, okay, I’m gonna toss out my questionnaire. You say it’s too much guilt and shame. I’m just going to ask a bunch of people. And he did three separate studies. Do you believe you’re addicted to it? That’s what he asked.
Just straight up, none of these guilt and shame questions. And guess what he found out? There was no difference between religious people and non religious people believing they were addicted. And guess what he found was the best predictor of believing you’re addicted? How much you use. The more you use, the more you thought you were addicted.
Anne: Right.
The CPUI-9 Questionnaire: Does Shame Cause Infidelity?
Gary: So he basically debunked all his own studies, and he debunked all the other studies that used the same questionnaire. So all this shame being the cause of pornography addiction arises from one place, Joshua Grubb’s nine question questionnaire called the CPUI-9. And then last year he debunked his own questionnaire.
Anne: Does he admit that now? Does he say, oops?
Gary: No, he doesn’t say oops directly. He’s still using his questionnaire. And I actually attended a conference a couple of weeks ago, and he admitted there were problems. He said, well a lot of people think there’s problems with this questionnaire, but we use it anyhow. So he keeps using it. They take these steps that aren’t connected and connect them.
And then they found, wow, when you remove those three questions from the Grubb’s questionnaire that are just about shame and guilt. There’s really no connection to religiousness. So again, they keep finding, looking at this questionnaire, that you need to get rid of these three questions that have nothing to do with addiction. They only had to do something with guilt and shame. And all the headlines really fall apart.
Anne: Right.
Gary: So it’s a big lie out there. You know, you’ve seen my presentation. It’s just a big lie and it continues.
Anne: How can we help wives regain their voice after being silenced by the manipulation of a addict who says you can’t do this, or you can’t do that, because if you do, it’s shame.
Gary: That’s blaming someone else for your own behavior. And that’s just ridiculous, an alcoholic same thing, cigarette smoker, meth user, gambler.
Debunking Myths About Shame Causing Infidelity
Gary: The shame is internal. It’s an internalized thing of the addict. They have shame because they can’t control use. The addict will feel shame whether the spouse or partner points out they’re using when they said they wouldn’t. And when that person, privately without being discovered, uses without the partner knowing. Shame will occur in those situations. It’s just blaming someone else for your behavior.
Anne: What I want my listeners to know is that you can tell them how you feel. You can be honest. If they accuse you of shaming them, you can be like, uh, no, I am telling the truth. I am religious. So I would say, no, I’m standing for truth and righteousness. Non religious people might say something like, I have specific needs to feel safe in my own home, and I do not feel safe.
Women are terrified to state their needs right now. And I don’t know how to say it. Other than flat out say there is nothing you can say to him that will shame him. He is responsible for his own shame.
Gary: It’s strange, if we step back a little bit and look at the big picture. I think I’ve also heard that in the past, in “addiction recovery” models, they have suggested to the woman that she not shame the partner, that she take responsibility for her behavior. I completely disagree with that. Why is it that with “addiction” or pornography addiction that we’re so caught up in, oh, we cannot shame the partner?
Every Individual Must Take Responsibility For Their Actions
Gary: But with gambling addiction, we wouldn’t have that same response. I don’t see that. Or with alcoholism, you don’t see a lot of the, oh, it’s also the partner’s problem. Maybe you do. Maybe there’s this codependence thing, but I don’t like the codependence model.
Anne: No.
Gary: I don’t like it at all. Every individual must take responsibility for their actions. And that’s my model, and that’s the only model that works. As far as I can see, having monitored these forums where guys are trying to quit for the last 12 years. They take responsibility for their actions.
Anne: Yeah, you don’t hear people saying, my brother does crack cocaine. I didn’t want to shame him. People are like, crack cocaine is wrong. I’m gonna state it out loud. It’s not a good thing. It’s bad if you do it. There’s not this fear of like, oh, I need to walk on eggshells. Also, in my religion, with drugs or other things, there is accountability. But with online expoitation, there’s this, we don’t want to push him away from the church. We want to keep him in the church, so there’s no accountability.
Gary: You know, one thing I’d like to point out when we’re talking about shame. Internet exploitation is set up to trap largely males, though females do get trapped. It’s endless novelty, all these women. We have the supernormal versions of what we call natural rewards in our face. And my site describes how it can trap men into it.
And then the addiction brain changes, and how it’s tough when these brain changes have occurred, like your frontal cortex has changed and it’s hard for you to inhibit behaviors.
Projecting Internalized State Outward
Gary: What they also need to know is you need to stop using. These things will not go away. You need to have long periods of not using to reverse the brain changes. So I think, in summary, that if you learn about addiction in general, and how super normal versions of natural rewards like junk food or innappropriate media can grab us. Then maybe you can step back and say, okay, well, this is what’s normal. It happened to me. It’s not good. I don’t want it to happen, but I can see why it did.
Anne: Right.
And so that’s my approach. And now, of course, whether you’re LDS or an atheist, these young men are starting at age 12 or younger. So by the time they decide to marry, they’ve been using it for 10 straight years.
Anne: And I admire the addicts who view it that way.
Gary: Right.
Anne: It’s not surprising to me that this happened. Now I need to move forward and become a healthy person. They’re humble, honest, easy to get along with and peaceful people. The addicts who are not in recovery, however, are faking recovery or trying to blame other people. That’s the population that in general my audience is dealing with every day, all day long.
And so we have to set boundaries around that. So that we can be emotionally and physically safe from STDs or domestic violence. What particular brain changes make addicts more likely to blame their partner?
Gary: Blame their partner, I don’t think you can put that down to a brain change. I think it’s just I feel bad about myself because I can’t control use, so I’m going to project it outwards.
There Is No Proof That Shame Causes Infidelity It’s Just an Excuse
Gary: I mean, this is the human nature we project our internalized state outward to the world. So the internalized state for an addict is I feel crummy, because number one, I’m using. That makes me feel crummy. Number two, I promise people. And I’m breaking the promise. Number three, I am causing damage to myself, my family, and my job. So I am having a negative effect. Since I don’t want to feel bad about myself, I’m gonna blame you, you’re the closest person to me.
Anne: You don’t think it has anything to do with their frontal lobe being damaged? Are there any issues with not being able to connect the dots? I noticed when my ex was using, he got dumb. He was totally, completely illogical.
Gary: That’s true. You’re exactly right. Fifteen studies have found this. The prefrontal cortex, the higher part of our brain, the one that controls impulses. The one that puts the brakes on you, yelling at your spouse or flipping someone off because you’re mad. And plans ahead and sees the consequences of actions, it does become weakened.
I won’t use the term damage, but it does become weakened. Yeah, there are about five or six studies that show less cognitive functioning or poorer cognitive functioning in addicts. In essence, they become dumber, and they have a lot harder time controlling their impulses. So yes, You are right, and it’s great you point this out, that would lead to someone wanting to scream at the partner.
Quitting Benefits Clear Thinking
Gary: And what’s interesting is thousands and thousands of self reports from young men who quit. One of the most common benefits is that they think clearer, their brain fog is gone. Their grades go up. And also what’s interesting and related to this is they can feel much more emotion, so they can have much more empathy. So if you’re lacking empathy, that too would cause you to lash out at someone close to you.
Anne: You’re lacking empathy, you’re lacking the ability to control your impulses, and your logic isn’t that sound. So you may blame your partner by saying she makes me feel shame.
Gary: You’re much more hyper reactive to any stressor, and again, lashing out.
Gary: I don’t like to label it an attachment disorder. In fact, I don’t like to label any of the addictions an attachment disorder, and there’s a myth out there Johan Hari put out a big TED talk that said, Oh, addiction is an attachment disorder. Again, let’s step back from that. So many addicts and users have wives and spouses, sons and daughters, and family and friends. Yet they continue to use.
Then we look at something that is obviously an addiction, smoking. They don’t study smokers and are more sociable, so they don’t have any attachment disorders. But yet they can’t quit despite severe negative consequences.
Withdrawal Symptoms & Stress
Gary: So I don’t even like the idea of it being an attachment disorder. I think that’s too simplistic.
Anne: I agree. I hate it. That’s why I love you so much. I’m like, thank you, because I’m surrounded by this. Shame causes infidelity and attachment disorder, and all these hand wringing things, and it just makes the wives feel terrible.
Gary: Oh yeah, and interesting enough, when they stop using, they have withdrawal symptoms. Now, sometimes it’s really bad withdrawal symptoms. Some guys will report even aches and pains, but it’s anxiety, restlessness, depression, brain fog. And so, in order to get over that, they’ll go back and use.
So both the lashing out, the inability to adapt to stress, cravings when you have stress, and withdrawal symptoms. These are all coming from one thing, a malfunctioning stress system. And chronic overuse caused that, because it occurs with drug addictions also.
Anne: Wow, wow, it makes so much more sense. I did not shame him. No, it’s his emotion. I can’t shame him, I was not capable of doing that. It helps me view it for exactly what it is. And I appreciate that.
Attachment Model Does Not Cause Infidelity Either
Gary: Even though it’s not methamphetamine or cocaine, they’ve done experiments on animals. Certain animals that fall in love with their partner. They’re called voles. So they actually learn the biological neurological mechanisms of falling in love and people by studying voles. What they found is, if you give, voles something that raises dopamine, methamphetamine or cocaine. Well, it raises dopamine as high as possible naturally.
And if you become addicted, It blocks the falling in love mechanisms. At least it is shown in animals. Again, we gotta separate the result of chronic online expoitation use. Rather than going back and saying, Oh, they originally had an attachment disorder, and then they became addicted. No, they became addicted, which interferes with attachment.
Anne: Right, they’re incapable of attachment because they use it.
Gary: Yes. I’ll use an extreme example, a mother addicted to cocaine. She doesn’t even take care of her baby. You can have milder examples. Look, a pornography addict is willing to ruin their marriage to continue to use it. So it is obviously affects their bonding with both their children and their spouse.
Anne: Exactly, so women, you don’t need to try “attaching” to an unsafe person.
Gary: We think about other addictions, the model, of course, is alcoholism. They don’t call that an attachment disorder. They suggest the alcoholic stop using. In fact, when someone who’s not in a relationship goes into AA, they say, don’t get into a relationship for a whole year. You need to focus on your sobriety.
Men Who Quit See Their Wives Differently
Gary: I monitor many forums, hundreds of thousands of men in relationships. They are quitting. And what they report after 30, 60, 90 days is they see their wife differently. They see their partner differently, they are more in love, they can’t believe they acted the way they did. They just want to shower her with love, finally when they can get it up, it is so much more exciting. They’re thrilled! And their wives are more thrilled, and they feel connected.
Did that person have an attachment disorder, or was it interfering with attachment? I think maybe they’re putting the cart before the horse. Yes, the addict may have trouble attaching. Is that because of their years of chronic and continual use of it? I would say yes, because I’ve observed the changes in how men view the women and experience the emotions, once again, of love and attachment after they quit. That needs to be looked at, addressed and acknowledged.
Anne: Absolutely, their not quitting is the problem. It’s like, oh, I had a relapse every day for seven days. Because I didn’t feel attached to you. But they need to be worthy to attach to! Do you think these therapists are coming up with this attachment stuff, shame stuff, and these people spreading this nonsense are addicts themselves, and they’re just trying to justify stuff and not feel bad?
Gary: All of us humans, because we’re in the human condition, have problems with relationships. You know, unless we’re enlightened, or Jesus, or in love with everyone, we’re gonna have problems.
Issues With The Attachment Disorder Model
Gary: I think it’s misguided to focus on that, as the cause of addiction. If the addict and user stop for a long time, you may see a change in their ability to express emotions. For them to feel love coming back at them from their friends, their kids, and especially their spouse. So I think it might be putting the cart before the horse with the attachment disorder model.
Anne: It’s not working for women. They’re trying to support their spouse who’s “in recovery.” Their spouse lies straight to their face. Telling them, yes, I’m in recovery. When he’s not really. And he’s not showing these brain changes that you’re talking about, where they can love their spouse more, or they can connect better because they’ve stopped using. They’re not happening. But the guy claims he’s in recovery.
“Leave me alone. I’m working on my recovery. You don’t have any right to talk to me about my recovery. They say the shame of talking about it causes infidelity, and that “you work on your side of the street.” That sort of thing. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is specifically for wives of users. So that they know exactly what behaviors to look for, to know if they’re safe, rather than just taking the addict’s word for it. While they’re basically just manipulating their wife still and lying.
Gary: Right, there’s something nasty about addiction. It’s called the abstinent effect. This occurs with people who are religious. They’re using, and then they’ll take a break because they’re white knuckling it, and they’ll take a week off, two weeks off.
Shame Cannot Cause Infidelity: Cause And Effect
But what’s interesting is when you stop an actual addiction over the next two to three weeks, your brain changes. And it sprouts more connections to make the cravings even more intense. If you are exposed to something that causes cravings. The brain changes about three weeks out. And if you are under stress or exposed to some image. Your cravings are much stronger than they were a couple days after you quit.
They might watch it for five hours, and then they feel like crap, and then again they project it out on the world. So there’s often this binge cycle with two to three week gaps, and that actually causes more severe binging. So in other words, they need to get further down the line. They need to get 60, 90 days, 120 days away from binging.
Anne: And they need to be honest about where they are too. I think what’s happening right now, at least in my community, is they tell their wife they’re in recovery. Their clergy knows, the family knows, people are talking about it more, and so they know they have to be in recovery. They lie, and they just keep lying. Without the truth, there’s no way for them to get better. They know they’re supposed to be in recovery, and they’re not willing to be honest about their situation in so many cases.
Gary: Well, that’s just a normal addiction pattern.
Anne: Yeah, it’s, it’s not your fault, women. It’s not because you asked him to mash the potatoes, cut the tomatoes, nothing to do with shame, how would that cause infidelity? It has nothing to do with any of that. It is all him.
You Can’t Compete With Something That’s Not Real
Gary: Well, yes. And there’s this common myth that a wife, if she just gave a guy enough, he would give it up. But that’s not what happens in practice. We see that everywhere. The guy is compulsively addicted to it. Which means he wants to watch it.
He wants to click from video to video, and no single female can match the novelty, the variety he sees online. So the woman should never blame herself that she’s not enough. Because no one could ever be a thousand different women in a five hour binge.
Anne: You can’t compete with it.
Gary: No, so I think that’s why they turn to love. But if the person continues to use, it’s interfering with the attachment of the addict. So again, it comes back to the responsibility of the addict.
Anne: It doesn’t matter to us, why? If we try to figure out, is he grumpy because of stress at work or grumpy because of what he uses online? Is it because I shamed him? Is it because he went off his medication? Yeah, to us, the only thing that matters is when that abuse starts, that we set boundaries. Although its hard to set boundaries with your emotionally abusive husband.
Gary: Yeah.
Anne: Because if we try to figure out why and try to get him help, you need to go to the therapist. You need to do that. We just. get caught in the abuse cycle. The second that starts happening, it’s the time to detach, take a step back, set the boundaries you need and observe, just observe what they’re going to do from a safe distance.
Different Consciousness From Addicts & Victims
Gary: The common knowledge is you can’t fix an addict, it’s always up to the person.
Anne: Exactly, well you are amazing. Thank you so much. I am so excited to get this out. Yay, it’s my favorite.
Gary: Just a bit of a backstory. In my life, I of course, besides being non religious, didn’t think much about this kind of stuff and got into this observing. You know, year in and year out guys who are trying to quit. What was interesting about them was that there was no discussion about attachment. There was no discussion about blaming the wife, none of them. Literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of posts, and none blame the spouse.
They’re all like, man, I did this, man, I did this, I’ve got to do X to quit. So it’s a real different consciousness that we’ve observed than what you’re experiencing.
Anne: I went through years of thinking it was an attachment disorder. Or that I was shaming him into his infidelity and addiction. I was abused because of it. It serves the perpetrators. It’s not a model that protects victims. People also kept telling me to forgive, now I know the truth about forgiving abuse.
Gary: Well, it’s great that you’re doing this. We’ve had discussions when I was out there of the tremendous need for this because, man, it’s really putting the partners into a bad position.
Gary: It’s causing PTSD, right?
Anne: Yeah, and when you go for help to a therapist who doesn’t know what they’re doing, or clergy and you get further traumatized, it’s worse.
Gary: And clergy everywhere, they just don’t get it, don’t know squat about addiction.
Anne: Yeah, that’s painfully obvious, it’s bad. Gary, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Husband Is On Phone All The Time? His Online Choices Could Hurt More Than Just You
Jul 15, 2025
Exploitative material isn’t entertainment, it’s the commercialization of women’s bodies. It’s harmful to everyone. If your husband is on phone all the time, it’s important to know, that what he’s doing on his phone really matters.
If he’s using exploitative materials on his phone, there are the real implications of his actions.
If your husband is on the phone so much that he’s ignoring you or dismissing you or not helping with the family, it’s possible that there’s more going on that meets the eye. His attitudes and choices may actually be emotional abuse. To find out if he is using any of these 19 emotional abuse tactics, take ourfree emotional abuse test
Transcript: Husband is On Phone All The Time?
Anne: I have Laila Mickelwaite on today’s episode. She has appeared on the podcast before to talk about her nonprofit, Justice Defense Fund, and how they combat the exploitation industry, which victimizes women and children through material often uploaded and viewed by the victims’ husbands or their groomers. Welcome, Laila.
Laila: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you.
Anne: I appreciate you. You have done so much in such a short amount of time. And I’m hopeful this will help bring more awareness to women about the possible implications if your husband is on the phone all the time using exploitative material. Let’s start with your new book called Takedown.
Laila: Yes, so excited to finally have that out after years of writing. The reason I wanted to write this book was to get the truth out about P**nhub and its parent company. It has a monopoly on the global industry. I want to get the truth about what has happened to so many victims on the public record, to educate people, activate them, inspire them, and ultimately get more people informed and engaged in the fight for justice, not only against P##nhub.
MindGeek, was recently renamed ILO to try to distance themselves from their toxic image. I really want to help take down and, most importantly, prevent illegal content from distribution on user generated sites. So that’s why I wrote the book. And one hundred percent of all proceeds from the sale of the book go to the Justice Defense Fund.
Global Reach & Petitioning for Justice
Laila: To help this cause, the fight for justice, to hold mega abusers accountable, and to really bring needed closure and restitution to victims. So that’s the purpose. You can go to takedownbook.com and there you can purchase the book at really any major online retailer. Penguin Random House publishes it, so you can find audiobook or ebook or hardcover.
You can find it in Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States. And someone is translating it into Chinese, but yeah, takedownbook.com and there you can also sign the petition. Over 2 million people signed the petition to shut down P##hub and hold its executives accountable from every country in the world.
Implications of what he’s doing on his phone
Laila: This isn’t only for exploited children. Their lives are completely shattered because of the distribution of their trauma on P**hub and its sister sites. But also adult victims, victims assaulted and trafficked. Also victims who have consensually recorded videos and then had it non-consensually distributed, which is very traumatic for them.
Anne: Yeah. It is. We have women in our community who have had that happen, and it’s been horrific. Then they find out their husband was on the phone all the time watching to see if his non-consensual videos got the views on YouTube. It’s awful
Laila: And we know that according to surveys, victims of what we call image-based abuse have almost a 50 percent rate of suicidal ideation. So it’s very traumatizing. What happens is when the videos are uploaded, they become the immortalization of trauma. People download them and then upload again and again. They understand that this will happen in perpetuity for the rest of their lives.
They can’t escape it, and so this is horrific. It was happening en masse on the world’s most popular and trafficked site. When the fight began at the beginning of 2020, just for context, it was the largest and most popular site. But by the end of the Corona virus pandemic, which was in full swing, they had actually become the fifth most trafficked website.
So the fifth most visited website across the entire internet had 170 million visits per day, 62 billion visits per year, and enough content uploaded every year, every 12 months, that it would take 169 years to watch if you put those videos back to back.
MindGeek’s Monopoly
Laila: Owned by a parent company called MindGeek, who with a $362 million loan had rolled up the industry, owning most of the world’s most popular sites and brands. So, what I discovered at the beginning of February 2020, this is about 15 years in the fight against trafficking. And I’m paying attention to the headlines. I’m looking and investigating the industry and its ties to trafficking and abuse.
And I see some really concerning headlines. At the end of 2019, one of them was a 15 year old girl missing for a year. They found her when a user tipped off her distraught mother. He recognized her daughter on the site. She was assaulted in 58 videos sold for profit. And then the Sunday Times had done an investigation. They found dozens of illegal videos within minutes, even children as young as three years old.
And then, like I said, it’s not just children, but also adults. A woman named Nicole Adamando’s partner from New York tortured and assaulted her. He filmed the abuse and uploaded it. She killed him in self-defense but was then sentenced to life in prison and separated from her two young children.. These are just horrifying headlines. That happened at the end of 2019.
As an advocate against abuse and trafficking, of course, these arrested my attention. I had a haunting question that came to mind.
The Fight for Accountability: When What’s on his phone hurts people
Laila: And that was how in the world did this abuse end up on P**hub? And then, I discovered by testing the upload system, what millions of people already knew, and that was all it took to upload. And this is the reason why the site became infested with illegal content for multiple reasons. The primary reason was that they allowed unlimited upload of user generated images.
Anyone with an mobile phone could film a video anywhere in the world and upload it using just an email address. The platform did not check IDs to verify whether the person in the video was a child, underage teen, or tween. It did not verify consent to ensure the video did not involve an assault or trafficking victim. In under 10 minutes, anyone could upload a video to the site, which led to the platform becoming infested with videos of real crimes.
And that is how all this began, this fight to hold them accountable for what has happened. Now that has destroyed so many victims’ lives.
Anne: Thank you. Thank you so much. Like, you didn’t turn away, you went toward it. And that is like so brave. Your work and the way you’re helping women understand the magnitude of this issue, can’t be underestimated. So thank you. This is why it is so important that we are all more aware. So if a husband is on the phone all the time, you’re saying there’s a real possibility he may be supporting this exploitative industry. Since this effects everyone, what can we do to help.]
Community Support: A husband is on phone all the time?
Laila: I would just say thank you to everybody who’s been part of this movement. Because it certainly hasn’t been a one-woman fight. I took to Twitter using the hashtag trafficking hub after making that discovery. Everybody who cared caused it. Everybody who saw the injustice and didn’t look away, who shared, who signed.
Who even took to the streets, week after week with signs protesting. In front of the MindGeek headquarters in Montreal, LA, London, South Africa and all over the world. People who joined this fight in a meaningful way. Of the hundreds of survivors who came forward to powerfully tell their stories and raise their voices, even though they were attacked.
And to the journalists, lawmakers, and lawyers, so many people who came together to take on this behemoth of abuse. So from where I sit, I am so grateful to many people who listen to the betrayal trauma podcast, who have signed the petition, who’ve been a part of this. Without all of us coming together, this definitely wouldn’t have been possible.
Anne: That’s how we feel about the work we do here. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we’re educating women about what to look for, and we’re building community support in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Through betrayal Instagram posts and betrayal trauma videos. We reach women, especially if they’re like, “Why is my husband on the phone all the time? Something feels off.” So our focus is helping women feel safe and make progress toward a peaceful life within their own home. But in terms of your work can you share the progress that’s been made since we talked last?
The Movement
Laila: Yes, huge strides, we still have a ways to go. The fight’s not over, but the story is told in the book Takedown. I wrote it in first person present tense. It starts on the night when I’m testing the upload system, and making this discovery that the site is what I call a crime scene. Not a site, a crime scene. I launched the Trafficking Hub hashtag and launched the petition that started to go viral.
Survivors are coming forward daily. Whistleblowers from the company are coming forward and sharing internal documents and all the ways this company operates that intentionally enable the global distribution and monetization of crime. They’re peeling back the onion layers of complicity of owners.
Credit Card Company Ties: is your husband paying for exploitative material on his phone?
Anne: Yeah, if he’s on the phone all the time looking at this stuff, how is he paying for it?
Laila: We fought the credit card companies so hard for years. Finally, in 2022, they cut them off once and for all. Discover MasterCard, Visa, join PayPal, cut all ties with the site. Because one consideration drives every decision, that’s profit. What will make them the most profit?
The credit card companies cutting ties was the worst thing that could have happened to them. Over the last four and a half years, they have removed 91 percent of the entire website. They reduced their content from 56 million pieces in 2020 to 5.2 million today. The
Thanks to the participation of so many people, Financial Times called this probably the biggest takedown of content in internet history. Because these were unverified videos, meaning they had no idea if they were children, teens, victims of assault, trafficking, or image based abuse. They had no clue. And so many of them were criminal content. And so they were forced to take down that much of the site.
The CEO and the COO were forced to resign. The secret majority shareholder of the company, who had been hiding his identity from the public for years, was found. And he was exposed and located. And today he’s being sued by dozens of victims. Nearly 300 victims are suing ****hub and its parent company in 25 lawsuits, including multiple certified class actions for tens of thousands of child victims.
The Future Goals for justice
Laila: And the U.S. federal government has criminally charged them for intentionally profiting from trafficking. And sold as a distressed asset to a disgustingly named private equity firm. It was hastily concocted, and they named themselves Ethical Capital Partners, but this is what’s happened so far. And we hope to see full justice, meaning victims are provided the restitution, that we see full criminal prosecution.
Ultimately, we’d like to see them shut down completely to send a message to others that not only bring justice to victims. But to send a message to anyone who would operate like them, that this impunity, this exploitation for profit, will just not be tolerated. And hopefully that can deter future abusers. Because if a husband is on the phone all the time using pornography, it indicates he’s involved with the abuse of these women. As a result of all of this, what we really want to see.
We want to see agent consent verification policies for all user generated sites. To prevent this from happening in the future. They’ve refused to do it for so many years. They set up the business model to profit from unrestricted amounts of content. Because the way they make money on the site is by selling advertising impressions. So on this site alone, they were selling 4. 6 billion ad impressions on the site every day.
And in order to sell that many ad impressions on the site, they have to have massive amounts of traffic coming to the site. And in order to have massive amounts of traffic, they have to have inventory to show up in Google to drive those results. So they have to have so much content in order to drive that traffic.
verifying indentities
Laila: And so they don’t want to limit content or any friction in uploading. They want it free for all. Upload whatever you want. They didn’t care what is being uploaded. They just wanted videos, which actually were crime scene videos. So that’s why they resisted for so long until even September of 2024, after all this happened. They finally said, and we will have to see what’s going to happen if they’re actually going to do it properly.
But they said they’ll start to verify the ID of the individuals in new videos uploaded to the site. But they still have to account for 5 million videos uploaded, without verifying who’s in them and whether they consented to that being uploaded. So we’re demanding the rest come down.
Anne: Wow, sorry, it’s so intense. That anyone could be educated about this even a little bit and say that money is more important than a victim’s emotional, and psychological safety is insane. It’s like shocking. The final step in this true crime story is to legally and financially hold the founders accountable. So that others don’t replicate this business model. And then I have a follow up question about the new buyers.
Laila: Ethical Capital Partners, yeah, the new owners. One of the things that’s so important in this fight, and I’m so proud of, is the survivors who courageously came forward. To personally sue by name, not just the corporation, but the individual owners. And I’ll just share the story of one particular survivor who has just led the charge on doing this.
One Survivor’s Story
Laila: And her name is Serena, and she was an innocent 14 year old from Bakersfield, California. Who had videos of her abuse uploaded again and again. They had a download button on every video, so anybody could possess these videos on their devices. And then upload them again and again to the internet. She would beg them to take these videos down.
And if they would even answer her, you know, most of the time they would ignore her, she said. But then if they answered, they would hassle her to prove she was a victim, prove she was underage in the videos. And even if she could get them down, they would just go up again. And this sent her on a spiral of trauma and despair. She dropped out of school because she was being bullied. And she got addicted to drugs to numb the pain. She tried to kill herself multiple times.
And then wound up homeless, living out of a car. But today, Serena has told her story, not only that, but she sued. Also its owners individually, the CEO, the COO, the secret majority shareholder exposed. Not only that, she’s also suing Visa for their participation in all this, for their processing of her criminal abuse. This is because if a husband is on phone all the time using pornography, he’s abusing these victims too.
And she’s suing the hedge funds that gave MindGeek the money to have their business in the first place. Colbeck Capital, Redwood Capital, and dozens of survivors are doing the same, suing the individual owners. I think that is so important. It sends a message to those who make the decisions. You can’t hide behind a corporate veil. You can’t just shield yourself with a corporation.
New Name & New Man In Charge doesn’t solve the problem
Laila: That these decisions that you enact, because at the end of the day, these are policies that come from the top. That they will be personally responsible for that. And I think when that happens, it will create a huge deterrent effect. Where the owners of these companies will be afraid to make those same decisions because they will know. That they are not immune from accountability.
So I think that is so important. And with the new owners, they’ve called themselves Ethical Capital to try to distance themselves and whitewash history. And they could name themselves something else and maybe try to get people to forget. But the victims will never forget what happened to them. They’ll live with that for the rest of their lives. And they’re currently fighting for justice, even against the new owners.
And one thing that’s disturbing to know is that the new face of the company is a man named Solomon Friedman. He’s a criminal defense attorney and has spent his career defending criminals. Time Magazine reported he has had significant experience defending criminals and those who are abusers. He wants to do the same for this company. However, we’re going to keep fighting to ensure the truth is told.
And even to this day, like I said, there’s unverified content on the site. And there are illegal videos still up, even after all this happened. So we’re just going to keep sharing the truth.
Anne: Yeah. Because maybe women don’t know that if there husband is on the phone all the time using this exploitative materials they’re creating demand for these videos. With the credit card companies cutting off people’s ability to use credit cards on these sites. Are people using crypto now?
Using Crypto Currency: what your husband may be using to pay for exploitative material on his phone
Laila: Yes, they can use crypto, so they can still transact, unfortunately. When it was sold to the new owners, was sold as a distressed asset because they lost their credit card companies. Yes, they still can transact using crypto.
Anne: It just goes more and more criminal, more underground. I’m not gonna argue that going underground is good for it, right? Less people will use it. If a husband is on the phone all the time using it, it victimizes these women.
Laila: True, it’s so interesting. You said that, because that’s what I hear from victims themselves. They say the most traumatizing part of having these videos distributed is that they’re distributed on the surface web. Where Google crawls. Some of these victims have had their names attached to the videos, their school name. Their town where just anybody can find them. So when they go to the grocery store, they’re standing in line wondering who has seen my assault video?
Because it is on the mainstream, most popular sites in the world, accessible to anyone. And like you said, even accessible to children, which is so horrifying to consider. That any child can click a few buttons on a device could end up on the home page. Where there have been criminal videos, even on the home page itself, side by side by real assault videos.
And having a child be exposed to that trauma as their introduction to sexuality, as their education is so frightening.
Anne: That’s abuse.
Laila: It is abuse. It’s a form of abuse. I talk about the need to protect children on both sides of the screen from viewing this content and also being in the content.
Age Verification Laws
Laila: And I’m so encouraged by this wave of momentum that we’ve seen recently, where states are starting to pass age verification laws for users. It’s interesting, because they have aggressively opposed age verification for users. And they have actually shut themselves down in states that have enacted age verification. Or made them liable when a child views their site. So in some cases, states have said, parents could sue the company for not having age verification in place.
And in that case, they’ve shut themselves down because they don’t want to lose the money. They don’t want to pay. And we even have the senior community manager is on the record saying what the real reason is. They cite like privacy concerns, this is a privacy and free speech issue. When the senior community manager said this costs us money.
And that it would basically be devastating to their revenue. And so, that just shows it’s like this in every case. They’re putting profit before the safety of people. In this case, the safety of children, not to have to witness a crime.
Anne: I think Utah passed that. But still, if a husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, it funds this revenue.
The Supreme Court & Age Verification
Laila: Yeah, there are a number of states, Alabama did and Texas. It’s actually going to the Supreme Court, because in Texas they passed the law, and then they refused to comply. They were sued by the state of Texas. Then they countersued to stop the law from being enacted, they lost. And then they appealed, and then they lost. And now they’re protesting it.
So it was a free speech coalition. They was one of the plaintiffs in the case to appeal, and then it’s going to be heard at the Supreme Court.
Laila: I think the date is January 15. And so they’ll consider whether this is constitutional to enact age verification for users of these kind of sites.
Anne: Are any senators or anyone consistently voting against these type of bills?
voting for safety over profit
Laila: I don’t have anyone voting against these types of bills. What I’ve seen is mostly unanimous support from both sides. Bipartisan support, because the ones opposed to this are the industry people. Because it costs them money. It costs them traffic. And the financial incentive there is to oppose it. But anybody who has common sense, who cares about the safety of children, doesn’t want children to access the sites.
And some people say we need device level verification, where that would be Apple, for example. That would instill in the device itself safety for children not to access adult sites. And then some people say, no, it should be at the website level. And I’m saying it should be both. When we are trying to implement safety when we’re driving a car. You have a seatbelt, a roll bar, an airbag, and various ways to protect.
I think in this case, it’s both, and yes, do device level verification for kids to protect them. But then also require these sites to have third party age verification for users of those sites.
Anne: I’m interested in seeing who starts citing free speech issues and not voting for this. If there is anybody, hopefully it will be unanimous. But if there is, I would like to call them out and have people know that this is the person who voted against this. Because like, Oh, here’s somebody who likes pedophiles. I’m interested in seeing how that shakes out.
Privacy Concerns & Free Speech: does your husband have a right to view this on his phone?
Laila: Yeah, and just to clarify, so there’s the age verification laws that we need to see for those accessing the videos. And then there’s the age verification we need for those in the videos. It seems like there’s even less opposition to age verification for those in the videos than the user side. Because some people say, Oh, I don’t want to give over identifying information to access this kind of site.
It’s my right to access a site without having to do that. Which isn’t a great argument, because people give over identifying information to shop on Amazon, to use PayPal, to go on Airbnb.
Anne: Yeah, but they don’t care if people know they bought something on Amazon. If a husband uses his phone all the time to view this material, and doesn’t want his wife to know he’s using it, he’ll lie to her. These types of exploitative men think it’s their right that nobody knows. They should access this without their wife knowing, because if their wife knows, she might be like, I’m not into this.
And he wants to maintain power and control in his own home by controlling the narrative of who he is and what his character is. So he does not want his wife to find out. A husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, funds victimization.
Laila: Well, then I think those who oppose it need to be clear and honest. And say, it’s not that I care about my privacy. This is not a speech issue. This is, I don’t want anyone to know that I’m going to this site. It’s generally not a privacy issue. It’s privacy about this issue.
Exposing Exploitative Men: Husband is on Phone all the time?
Anne: Totally, but men with an exploitative character will never tell the truth. When a husband is on phone all the time, using pornography, exploiting women, they never say, I want to lie to my wife and live a double life, so I’m going to vote against this bill. They will never say that. They’ll always cite free speech, and say they don’t want government intervention.
I don’t know what they’ll say, but they’ll never say,I want to lie to my wife about who I am. Just talking about the man who would claim free speech stuff. It’s not free speech to assault a child, so no.
Laila: That’s actually true, because when we’re talking about free speech, we’re assuming these sites are distributing legal content. We know that much of the content distributed, because we have figures, victims, cases, and evidence. That a significant portion of what is on these user generated sites. Children can freely access illegal content, which is contraband.
It is not an idea, an expression. It’s not any form of legal material. There’s no protection for that kind of content to be distributed. I think that’s why it’s important to make sure that we are talking about the reality of these sites. Because people, perhaps judges, and those considering these cases might have this idea that this is Playboy, right?
That this is the content you might’ve seen 50 years ago or 20 years ago. But with the advent of user generated content and unrestricted uploads, so much of it is actually criminal content. That’s important for them to consider. What is the material being distributed on these sites?
Protecting Victims & Updating Laws: Husband is on phone all the time?
Laila: And children need to be protected from viewing. But adult victims and children need to be protected from being used. If a husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, it produces demand for these videos. We’ve had a law in place in the U.S. since 1988 called U.S. C 2257, which traditionally governed the brick and mortar industry. We think about Exploitation Valley in L. A. and the way studios had produced it.
This required them to do age verification and record keeping. And in fact, the Department of Justice could at any time call for the inspection of those documents. And if they didn’t have them, it was actually a criminal offense. However, now with this new model of free user generated distribution. They’ve just completely gone around that important regulation, so we need to update our laws.
Anne: Do you know of any victim who has used material on these sites or discoveries from her husband on the phone all the time as proof in her own assault case? Not to sue, but criminally to charge her rapist or someone who coerced her?
Laila: Yes, and it’s not her in the case that I’m going to cite right now. I mean, there are other cases of hers, but this is a him. There was a case of a 12 year old boy from Alabama drugged, overpowered and assaulted by a man named Rocky Shea Franklin. And he filmed the abuse, and he uploaded 23 of those videos. Using titles that indicated this was abuse of a child. They were sold, in a profit sharing relationship with the site. Police located the devices.
When they went on the devices, they found he had uploaded them.
Videos Used As Criminal Case Evidence: Husband is on Phone all the time?
Laila: And they saw the videos on the site. They documented them as evidence they used against him. He uploaded the videos of the victim. He’s in prison for 40 years. So, yes, that has definitely happened in more than one instance, where the evidence of the crime were the videos.
Anne: I wonder if more victims could do that. I know of at least a handful of women in our community who have had videos of them uploaded by their husbands. Like the woman you talked about at the beginning of this episode, and they didn’t know about it. Another’s husband is on phone all the time using pornography, victimizing women.
Laila: A recent case shocked the world, horrifying people but also inspiring them with her bravery in holding her husband accountable.. Her name is Giselle Pellicott, and she’s in France. She’s over 70 years old.
Anne: I did see this. It’s amazing.
Laila: Yeah, I can’t believe how brave she is. And I completely understand when victims want to be Jane Doe’s because I 100% understand that. So not to say that those who are out there as Jane Doe’s are not courageous because they are. But Giselle’s out there in this public trial. She demanded it be a public trial, her husband actually drugged her. And when she was unconscious, he would recruit men to come and assault her, and he would film it.
The police gathered thousands of videos that he had taken, showing how he recruited men from the community.
Giselle Pellicott’s Brave Fight
Laila: Lawyers, policemen, doctors, whatever, not just like guys who are just in their basements. Like you would imagine would do this, but guys who were answering these ads that he’s putting out. To come and assault his wife as she was unconscious. So anyway, she’s having a public trial, and yeah, the evidence of the crime is there.
He recorded the actual abuse. And one of the things she insisted, which was shocking to many people, was to have the court actually play some of those videos. So that she could shame. Her idea was to put the shame of what happened on the abuser, not the victim. So they could sit there and be ashamed to see what they did in front of the court. Which was like wow, like people were like, I can’t believe she did that.
As this story went public and gained viral traction worldwide, it inspired people everywhere. Individuals at the Justice Defense Fund have shared that similar incidents happened to them. Their husbands or partners drugged them unconscious, assaulted them, and later uploaded evidence, such as videos, to devices or websites.
But this is horrifying that this is not a one off case. This is actually happening.
Anne: I’ve talked with many trafficking experts, and the most likely person to traffic you is your boyfriend, right? Or even maybe your husband. Men who are intent on trafficking, groom you from the beginning. And many women end up marrying their trafficker. This is why it is so important to pay attention when a husband is on phone all the time-to know what he’s doing on there.
Lover Boy Method Of Trafficking: Husband is on phone all the time?
Anne: They don’t realize traffickers targeted them from the beginning. Traffickers often pose as boyfriends to groom their victims, sometimes marrying them and manipulating them into being filmed while having sex. Even if he’s your husband, and you don’t believe he’s intending to do harm, he’s still trafficking. And that may be what he’s doing when he’s on phone all the time. His online choices could harm other people.
Laila: Yeah, they call it the lover boy method of trafficking. It is common and used all the time. I don’t know if anyone has heard the powerful story of Annie Lobert. She believed she loved this person, her abuser. It’s a powerful story. It does happen often, and they use it as a tactic and method, and prey on that vulnerability. And it’s horrible, but yes, many times it’s familial, someone you know and trust.
Help for Victims
Anne: There might be a woman listening today, who is currently experiencing this, and wondering if their boyfriend or husband is on phone all the time viewing exploitative material. If that’s the case, what would you say to her?
Laila: They can go to the Justice Defense Fund website, justicedefensefund.org. And there is an intake form where you can fill out a few questions. You don’t have to talk in detail about what happened to you. You fill out a help form and connect with a trauma-informed, licensed representative who advocates at the Justice Defense Fund.. They’ll connect with you, hear your story, and help with whatever the next steps might be from there.
Anne: Thank you so much for your amazing work. I appreciate you so much.
Laila: Likewise, thank you so much for having me on and for this conversation, and I hope we can stay in touch.
Best Marriage Counseling Near Me for Couples?Here’s How To Know
Jul 08, 2025
If you’ve discovered your husband’s lies or infidelity, will marriage counseling help? What you need to know about the best marriage counseling near me for couples.
Did you know that most couples who are seeking counseling are dealing with emotional abuse? To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Do We Need Marriage Counseling?
Are you considering marriage counseling because you just discovered your husband’s been lying to you. If you recognize that couple therapy is contraindicated for your specific situation, but are desperate for solutions, or at least support, please recognize that your emotional safety is the priority.
Rather than focusing on helping your partner recognize their harmful behavior, you can focus on establishing emotional and physical regulation and safety for yourself.
Scheduling an Individual Session with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach to determine what you need to meet your own basic needs, including sleep, hydration, and nutrition.
Transcript: Best Marriage Counseling Near Me for Couples
Anne: It’s just me today. So many women wonder about marriage counseling. Women in our community often ask our coaches or ask me, “I need a good couple therapist. Who should I go to?” And that’s what I’m going to talk about today. When it comes to women seeking couple therapy or marriage counseling. These are the two scenarios I see the most often.
Scenario 1: Unaware of Husband’s Actions
Anne: Number one when a woman is unaware that her husband secretly uses explicit material, has affairs or hooks up with women from online dating apps. Usually the woman isn’t aware that her husband is doing this. She just knows something’s wrong in her marriage. When couples are having problems, people usually recommend marriage counseling. And because this is the most common recommendation, of course, she’s going to think that marriage counseling will help.
Scenario 2: Wife’s Involvement in Therapy
Anne: And number two, the wife convinces the husband to go to therapy, his own therapy. But then when she doesn’t see a difference or feels like he’s getting worse. She’ll think, well maybe if I’m involved, then I’ll see the improvements I’m looking for.
When Marriage Counseling For Couples Isn’t Advised
Anne: I have a master’s degree in education. And abuse educators like me don’t advise marriage counseling in any way, shape or form. Some women are confused, because the rare abuse program asks for your involvement, meaning the victims. So the therapist can get the truth about what’s going on. Why does a so-called good abuse program want the wife’s involvement? It’s because they know that the abuser will continue to lie and manipulate the therapist.
They also know that if she’s not involved, he’s not going to go. Which is like the biggest red flag right there. I’ve interviewed over 300 betrayal trauma victims on my podcast and in our community. And due to their reports about the harm done to them in both scenarios. I don’t advise. Any of the following: couple therapy, marriage counseling, suggesting your husband get therapy, or being involved in his treatment in any way.
Even if you have your therapist, and your abusive husband’s therapist talk to each other. I do not recommend that either. I’ll talk about what I do recommend near the end of the podcast. It’ll become really obvious why I don’t recommend marriage counseling, ever.
Five Requirements For Effective Marriage Counseling
Anne: As I talk about the five things that need to be true in order for marriage counseling to be effective.
Requirement 1: Knowing the Truth
Anne: Everyone involved needs to know the truth about the source of the conflict and agree on the source of the conflict.
So in on a regular marriage counseling situation. It might be. That he likes golf and she hates golf. And that’s it. That is the source of the conflict, but he golfs a lot, and she doesn’t want him to golf a lot. And he’s like, yeah, that is the source of the conflict. I mean, the truth is out there.
Requirement 2: Honest Identification of Conflict
Anne: Both partners willingly, honestly, and humbly identify their contribution to the conflict without needing to be convinced of it by someone else. So no one is trying to impose their interpretation on one of the other people. And they both willingly, honestly, and humbly identify their contribution.
Requirement 3: Healthy Relationship Expectations
Anne: Both partners have healthy expectations for the relationship. So in regular marriage counseling, it might be that spending two nights together a week is healthy. But expecting your partner to be with you 24 hours a day, seven days a week, is not healthy.
Requirement 4: Consistent Demonstration of Responsibilities
Anne: Both partners have consistently demonstrated they actually do. So this is something that you’ve seen with your eyeballs, not something that they talk about. They actively actually do childcare, household chores, and relationship management independently. Without prompting or oversight from the other. So this would mean he takes care of the kids without being asked, without being managed.
He can do household chores without being managed. He takes the initiative to actively participate in the marriage, in his child’s life. And the upkeep of the household, grocery shopping, cleaning. You know, all that stuff.
Requirement 5: Improving Communication & Intimacy
Anne: The reason the couple will attend marriage counseling is to improve their communication skills, their conflict resolution skills or intimacy skills. It’s not to address his abuse, his lying, or his affairs.
So if a man is a explicit materials user and has affairs, inappropriately texts coworkers, or been lying to you for years. If he’s been blaming you to manipulate you and exploit you and you have betrayal trauma from infidelity. None of those five things I just said can be true.
Marriage Counseling Should Never Be Recommended In These Circumstances
Number one, because he’s purposefully lying in manipulating you and everyone else to avoid the true source of the conflict, his explicit content use, his lies or his double life.
Number two, he’s never willingly honestly, or humbly identified, that he is the source of the conflict. But his choices are the source of the conflict. In fact, he’s been hiding it from you on purpose. Gaslighting you so that you don’t discover it.
Number three, due to his explicit content use. He doesn’t have healthy expectations. If he expects you to look like the women in the content look, that’s not healthy. If he views you as an object, he’ll expect you to do what he wants. Like don’t ask questions. That’s not a healthy expectation. If he’s an exploiter, he’s going to see the relationship as a series of transactions.
He goes to work, you give him it, or he brings home a paycheck. And you manage the children in household chores, the relationship, and everything else. That’s a transactionship. That’s not a relationship.
Number four, if he has an exploitative character. The likelihood of him without you managing it for him, managing childcare, household tasks, any of that stuff, grocery shopping. The likelihood of him repairing the relationship, planning dates, or starting hard conversations is almost zero. He might do these things to groom you while he’s trying to achieve a goal. But once that goal was achieved, he’ll stop. So he doesn’t consistently do any of these things.
The Fifth Reason These Requirements Fail In Abusive Relationships
Anne: And number five, as you’re thinking about couple therapy in this scenario, if you’re thinking about marriage counseling. You don’t want to go to therapy to improve communication skills, because your communication is fine. Your conflict resolution skills, your intimacy skills are fine. So, if you’re not thinking, Hey, I need to improve my intimacy skills or my conflict resolution.
If you just want to stop him from abusing you, or you want to figure out what’s going on. Then number five is not true. And r addiction marriage counseling will not work for you. Unfortunately, even if none of the five requirements for couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling are true. She may not know that he’s lying.
Couple therapists don’t do emotional or psychological abuse screenings before they start couple therapy. And they don’t do abuse screenings for addiction marriage counseling. Most of the time, a couple therapist doesn’t know what is going on, and neither does the wife. And this situation is going to make it worse. A regular couple therapist only has one job. It’s to help the couple improve communication so they can resolve their conflicts.
A man with an exploitative character is never interested in resolving conflicts. Although he may talk like he is, that’s actually a way that he’s going to continue to manipulate a victim. If he’s only interested in exploiting you, he’s going to see this whole situation as this perfect setup to continue to lie and manipulate you through the therapist. So I just talked about the five things that need to be true for couple therapy.
No One Should Ever Go To Sex Addiction Marriage Counseling
Anne: They apply equally to addiction marriage counseling. Which is why no one ever should go. Because those five things are never true if there’s addiction. When it comes to classic couple therapy, there are five things that guarantee a couple therapist will enable his abuse. And things will get worse for you. It will actually put your marriage at a greater risk for divorce.
Because his abuse will escalate during couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling. And if he starts to escalate due to addiction marriage counseling, divorce might be your only option for safety. So you need to take this seriously. If you want to avoid divorce. I take this extremely seriously, because on a very personal level, divorce did not solve my ex-husband’s abuse problem.
He continued to abuse me and my children emotionally, psychologically, and financially for eight years after our divorce. So I get it that women don’t want to consider divorce. And I’ll tell you my personal story of what happened with couples therapy in a minute.
If you want to avoid divorce, you want to avoid an escalation of his abuse for obvious reasons. That’s the number one reason you never want to go to couple therapy. Or even desire couple therapy or addiction marriage counseling. When it comes to regular couple therapists, those trained in abuse will refuse to treat couples who meet the following criteria.
Couple Therapy & Marriage Counseling Make Emotional Abuse Worse
Anne: What I’ve noticed is they’re either not trained in abuse, so they don’t know to refuse couples who meet this criteria. Or they think there’s an exception. Women tell me so many stories. A couple therapist or addiction marriage counselor thought he or she was this gift to humanity. This pride caused them to bend the rules. Because they thought they’d been more successful than they actually were.
So in the 300 interviews I did with betrayal trauma victims. They report they went to a addiction marriage counseling. And then they actually thought it worked for a minute. These women were pretty happy in the moment. And then they stopped going to therapy. And then they find out six months, a year, or two years later. That the husband was lying and manipulating the entire time. And it’s so traumatic to find that out.
And so when she discovers that the addiction marriage counseling worsened it. He was able to groom her and manipulate her even worse than before. She usually doesn’t go back to that same therapist, because even the thought of that therapist is so traumatic for her. It’s painful to her to even think that she just spent all that money and time, and it didn’t do anything. So she usually doesn’t go back and say, hey, this didn’t work.
So these therapists, all they know is that she left happy. They don’t know the end of the story. Alternatively, women tell me all the time that they came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, started listening to the podcast. And they were like, this is kind of extreme. I don’t think this is my situation. So then they went to a couple therapy, and had a horrific experience.
Ethical Criteria For Counselors To Refuse A Couple For Therapy: Abuse Of Any Type
Anne: They return to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, like five years later. And let me know, oh, my word, this is what happened. And they tell me their stories. So women come back to Betrayal Trauma Recovery all the time to tell me. Whereas I don’t think your typical therapist has that scenario. So they just think they were successful.
I find the attitude of addiction marriage counselors, that they can fix an abuser offensive. They don’t understand abuse. In that case, or they think the criteria I’m about to tell you doesn’t apply to them. Which is a huge red flag. And if they don’t have a screening process for this type of abuse, it’s unethical. So a couple therapist should refuse to treat any couple who meets any of these five criteria.
Number one, if there is abuse of any type, emotional, psychological, sexual, physical, financial, any abuse whatsoever present. Lying, manipulation and gaslighting are abuse. So if your husband lied about his use, he’s been abusing you. And that disqualifies you from addiction marriage counseling, or couple therapy. But if you don’t know he’s been lying and you go to couple therapy, do you see the problem here?
If he’s been lying to you about his use or his infidelity. He’s not going to suddenly tell the truth to a couple therapist. Similarly, if he admits to the explicit content use or you find it. And so you’re like, hey, let’s go to addiction marriage counseling. You’re in the same boat.
Criteria 2 For Counselors To Refuse A Couple For Therapy: Mental Illness Or Addiction
Anne: Either way, there’s been abuse. But the addiction marriage counselor will not see it as an abuse issue. They’re going to treat it as an addiction issue.
Number two, any couple where one or both of the partners has a mental illness or addiction problem. Couple therapy is never indicated. So even if you don’t want to label his addiction as abuse, this still disqualifies you as a couple from addiction marriage counseling. Addiction marriage counseling should not even exist. It should not be a thing. Anyone doing it is unethical. Because you’ve got abuse, addiction, and maybe a mental illness issue.
Let’s look at the victim for just a second, even if she’s been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder or depression, or sometimes bipolar. Many times she’s diagnosed with these things because she’s an abuse victim, and they don’t factor that in. So rather than saying, you’re fine. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re just an abuse victim. Let’s get you to safety. She gets a diagnosis. Every therapist should know that if mental illness is part of the mix, couple therapy is contraindicated.
So if there’s any mental illness in the mix that’s diagnosed or known, or if he’s a known addict, that couple therapist should immediately stop couple therapy. And if you ever have a therapist who says, hey, he’s a addict, and so you need addiction marriage counseling, that’s the biggest red flag in the universe.
Criteria 3: A Lack Of Empathy
Anne: Let’s go back to this mental illness issue for just a minute. Some experts say two thirds of addicts have a mental illness now. I don’t care about this part, because all I care about is how it affects her and to her it’s abuse. But the stats are 44% of addicts have a personality disorder or traits of a personality disorder. And so some therapists will be like, oh, there’s a mental illness. Let’s treat that. I’ll tell you why I’m not a big fan of that in just a minute.
They might say to you, you are experiencing PTSD symptoms, which is true. However, do they say you’re experiencing PTSD symptoms, but you’re fine? You’re totally normal. You’re acting exactly as you should be acting as an abuse victim. Because that’s what they should tell you. Instead, if they say you have some kind of mental illness because of your PTSD. Then you would be disqualified from couple therapy, which would sure disqualify you from addiction marriage counseling.
Number three, if there is a lack of empathy, then a couple therapy is contraindicated. This is where one or both parties are unwilling or unable to understand the other person’s perspective. If empathy is lacking, many therapists who have this, like I can fix him complex, will try to teach him to have empathy. They’ll give him scripts and do empathy training. Like a fake it till you make it sort of approach.
That is so dangerous, then abusers learn to mimic empathy, but they don’t actually feel it. So they understand the mechanics, and then they’ll use it as a weapon to groom you. And wives come back and report over and over that this type of therapy made their husband a super abuser.
Criteria 4: Infidelity
Anne: He began to talk in very empathetic ways and sounded better, but it just felt so cruel because his behavior hadn’t changed. He was doing it in ways that were so much more insidious and almost evil. Like we’ve had women come back and say he turned into the scariest person ever.
Because everyone else was like, look how healthy and wonderful he is. And he’s so empathetic and loving. He used scripts from couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling to manipulate more. And that is one of the most distressing things that women report.
Number four, if one person has engaged in a relationship outside the marriage. So like explicit content, which is a relationship with hundreds of women outside the marriage. Emotional affairs, then couple therapy is always contraindicated.
Number five, if one person doesn’t want to reconcile or solve problems. So a man with an exploitative character, he never has the goal of solving problems. His only goal is to get what he wants from her, not to build something together. So if he’s got that type of character, whether you know it or not, couple therapy will escalate the situation.
As reported by the women I interviewed, some therapists will say that if an addict or abuser has had a certain period of sobriety, or hasn’t been abusive, or has been in treatment for his addiction for his abuse for a year. Or a certain amount of time, it’s okay to start couple therapy or marriage counseling. And they report it did not go well, even after a period of sobriety or treatment.
Anne’s Personal Experience With Couple Therapy
Anne: In fact, my own experience illustrates this well. I had been dealing with an addict husband going to his own individual addiction therapist for years. We’d never tried addiction marriage counseling or couple of therapy before. Because I’d always refused. And things seemed like they had gotten a little better. They hadn’t. It was more like I was the frog in the pot, you know, I didn’t know that he had learned to lie better.
But because I thought things had improved since he’d been doing therapy and going to 12 step, he admitted he was an addict. And then he said the reason why things aren’t going perfectly yet was because we needed to go to couple therapy. There were some things that “we needed to work out”. He’d been wanting me to do couple therapy the entire time.
Sorry, side note, just yesterday I had one victim ask me if I knew he wanted to do it? I knew it was a bad idea, and that was my best test for whether the course of action was safe. Which kind of makes me smile now. Because my husband wanted to do couple therapy at the time, he was so excited. I remember when I agreed, he literally leaped off the couch and was like, awesome. Everything’s going to get better now. So we did 19 addiction marriage counseling sessions.
And things only escalated. I think it’s because he thought now’s the time to unleash all my resentments toward her. All my feelings based on all my erroneous thought processes. Because he hadn’t changed his abusive thinking at all. And he wanted the couple therapist to cram it into me.
Marriage Counselors Must Operate Under The Assumption Of Equality
Anne: Because he was like, I can’t convince her that she’s got these problems, but now I can get the therapist to do it. And he became more and more abusive to the point where he hurt me and was actually arrested. And the court gave him a no contact order.
Now couples therapists ethically, to maintain their licensure, must operate under the assumption of safety and equality. And in a situation with betrayal and addiction, there is no equality. Lies create an abusive power dynamic, because one person has more power than the other, because they have more information. So any couple therapist who does not see lying as an abuse issue creates a situation unequal and unsafe.
Marriage Counseling for Couples Can Make Things Worse
And so they’re not maintaining those ethical standards of operating with safety and equality. Okay, let’s move on to the second scenario I introduced at the beginning, when wives avoid addiction marriage counseling, or couple therapy. But I think his individual therapy isn’t going that well. And maybe if she talks to his therapist, the outcome will improve.
When I discovered the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop Strategies, one of the things that was like rattling around in my mind was about one well-known addiction marriage counseling practitioner. I’d heard accounts of his abuse to women. He would require her to sign a contract that she wouldn’t leave the marriage for a year. That she couldn’t use anything she learned in addiction marriage counseling in a divorce. He made her sign a contract, stuff was really bad.
I’ve heard a lot about this guy. He would tell the addicts or the abusers. If she’s angry, don’t worry. We can work with that. That’s not a problem, the only thing we can’t use is your wife’s apathy.
Complexities Of Marriage Counseling or Couple Therapy
Anne: Knowing that he thought he could use the woman’s emotions to benefit this himself. And the only thing he felt he could not use to the advantage of the abuser was apathy. That rattled around in my mind for a long time.
And that concept is well explained in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop outlines why it’s not safe to have your therapist talk to your husband’s therapist. Or to participate in your husband’s therapy as an observer, or to meet with a therapist with your husband. Even if the therapist says it’s not couple therapy or addiction marriage counseling. Which seems like word salad to me.
So after explaining to you all the reasons why a couple therapy is sometimes counter-indicated, and addiction marriage counseling is always contra-indicated. You’re probably thinking. We don’t fit the criteria, and he continues to harm me. So, what do I do?
I outline exactly what to do in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. Because it’s different than anything you’ve heard before, I wanted to visually show this to you. The Living Free Workshop is 55 video lessons. The total runtime of all 55 lessons is only two hours and 20 minutes. On average, they’re only three minutes each. I broke it up into tiny bite-sized pieces. The shortest video is 28 seconds, the longest is six minutes.
There’s a question between each lesson that you can either answer. If you want to process it on a really deep level, or you can just like put an X in the box and push next. Then you also process the information with the free workbook that comes with it. It’s a PDF, a beautiful two page spread.
The Living Free Workshop Helps You Determine Your Husband’s Character
Anne: And so if you want it in color, you can get it printed at like Kinko’s or something. It’s more expensive. The cheapest way to print it is to order it on Amazon. It’ll come quickly, or you can print it at your house either way. Just make sure if you print it, print it double-sided.
The Living Free Workshop will help determine your husband’s character. And help you know what to do. If you take the Living Free Workshop and you’re like, oh wait, he’s actually not abusive. Then couple therapy might be an option for you. And that would be great.
But addiction marriage counseling should never be on the table, because it never meets the criteria for a couple therapy, ever. I don’t even know why it exists. If you’ve enrolled in The Living Free Workshop, I’d love to know what you thought about it.
When Husband Betrays Your Trust: The Hidden Fallout
Jul 01, 2025
If you’ve just discovered your husband’s dark secrets, most women don’t know where to turn for help. If you’re wondering what to do when husband betrays your trust, here are 3 things to consider.
1. Check To See If His Betrayal Included Emotional Abuse
Most men who betray their wives use emotional abuse tactics long before their lies are discovered. The first thing to do after your husband betrays your trust is to become educated about emotional and psychological abuse. To find out if your husband used any of the 19 different types of emotional abuse before or after you discovered his lies, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
2. Learn Strategies To Protect Yourself
After you’ve discovered your husband’s betrayal, it’s imperative that you learn strategies to protect yourself. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches women thought, boundary, and communication strategies to protect yourself emotionally and psychologically after you discover your husband’s lies.
3. Find The Right Support
If your husband broke your trust, getting the right help is very important. Sadly, some people blame women who have been hurt. Therapists or clergy might say it’s her fault because she didn’t meet his needs or wasn’t easy to talk to. People often blame the victim, but this isn’t right. Victims of betrayal need support and kindness, not blame.
Some women find out their husband lies about how he spends his time. He might spend hours watching pornography. Others find out he lies about money. Some even discover he lied about having an affair with a co-worker.This type of betrayal of trust is emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. You’re not alone. If you need a safe place to talk about what happened, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
Transcript: What To Do When Husband Betrays Your Trust
Anne: I have a guest on today’s episode. She’s going to share her story. She actually wrote a book called Deceptive Liaisons, and we’re gonna call her Samantha, because that’s her pen name. As you’ll hear from her story, her husband betrayed her trust.
Anne: Okay, so Samantha, welcome. Thank you for sharing your story with us today.
Samantha: Thank you for having me.
Anne: When did you first suspect that something wasn’t quite right in your relationship?
Samantha’s Story Begins
Samantha: When I first caught him with exploitative material, he said, all guys do it. And I’m like, it doesn’t make me feel good. Yeah, he had hidden apps like the app would fake like a calculator, but you put in certain numbers and it opens up to private pictures. And he’s like, Oh, it’s not about you. It’s just, something that all guys do. But when it affected our intimacy, that’s when I questioned, what’s going on here?
He told me he had a big addiction. He did say this was something he should have told me before we were married. And he repeatedly promised he didn’t want to lose me over it. And he was going to get help. We were intimate, but it was very few and far between. And he would say, Oh, I have low testosterone or just make excuses.
He’d always have his phone with him and take it in the bathroom with him in the middle of the night. And, again, I thought it was exploitative material.
Anne: That makes sense. Did you realize that there was emotional and psychological abuse happening?
Samantha: I mean, there was gaslighting and manipulation, my husband betrayed my trust. So part of you looks inward. Why am I not good enough? What have I done? You question, what could I have done differently or what am I doing that I shouldn’t be doing?
Confrontation & Realization
Samantha: So, about one in the morning of my birthday, I couldn’t sleep. So I went downstairs to watch TV. I started thinking, I’m just going to check his email. I thought I’d find something. Everything looked pretty normal in the email. Communication between us, friends, work. But when I clicked on archive, the first email was a reservation for a hotel on a business trip the week prior. But the next archived email was a reservation for two for the following night.
And I was confused, because he had asked to go out for drinks with someone after work. He did this regularly. And that’s another reason why I didn’t suspect, because he always came home for the night. But I didn’t realize you can check in at 3 and be home by 11. Anyway, I was shocked. I was thinking, well, maybe I’m mistaken. Maybe it’s a surprise for me.
So I got ready for work, brought him coffee, and he’s like, what’s wrong? And I asked him point blank, are you having an affair? And he looked me right in the eyes, and he goes, no, babe, I would never do that. I love you way too much. So I went to work, and there were streamers, balloons and gifts around my desk. And I was like, I don’t feel like celebrating. I don’t feel like myself.
And then I double checked the, email just to see, maybe I saw something wrong. And when I clicked on the first reservation for his business trip, I did a double take and it wasn’t for a business trip, it was a beachfront resort in Hawaii for two the entire time. It is devastating to find out that my husband had betrayed my trust.
Emotional Breakdown Caused By My Husband’s Betrayal of Trust
Samantha: And he was on the same island I was on the whole time. It confirmed what I had been feeling. I ended up having to leave work, got home, and was just staring into space. And the phone rang, I answered it, and it was him. He says, hey, I called you at work and they said, you left. And I said, yeah, I decided to take the day off. And he goes, are you sure nothing else is wrong? So I gave him another opportunity to tell me the truth.
And I asked him again, are you having an affair? And this time he’s almost got a little bit of anger in his voice. Like, come on, why are you asking me this? You know, I’d never do it. You need to get that out of your head. I love you too much. And that’s when I just lost it and broke down. And I’m like, I know you weren’t in Phoenix last week on business. You were with her. You’re meeting her again tomorrow night.
It was probably a very short pause, maybe five seconds, but to me it felt like an eternity. That confirmed exactly, because he had no answer. I had caught him, and that’s when I just crumbled to the floor. I went into complete shock and started blurting out, who is she? How long have you known her? Where’d you meet? Da, da, da, da, and, of course, he didn’t give me the truth, my husband just lie upon lie.
He had betrayed my trusts so deeply. The more I uncovered, the more questions I had.
They Count On Us Not Knowing
Samantha: There was so much gaslighting, I thought I was the problem, you know? If I had only done this better, and if I could have just done that better. In fact, I went to a counselor myself. I just wanted to make sure I’m a better person for him. I tried to look inside myself.
And then realizing it wasn’t me after all. He was just turning it around so that I questioned myself and not him. And just so many lies upon lies. I don’t know how he kept up with it.
Anne: Wow, I’m so sorry. That is absolutely devastating. Now that you know what you went through. When you didn’t realize it while you went through it. Like now that you realize, oh, wow, he was emotionally and psychologically abusive to me. For a lot of our marriage, and I didn’t understand. How does that change your perspective now, looking back?
Samantha: I realize, looking back probably right from the beginning when we were dating. That the manipulation started back then, but I didn’t know what it was. How do you deal with that when you don’t know that your husband has been betraying your trust your whole marriage?
Anne: Yeah, they know that we don’t know, and they count on that. It’s not like we’re stupid for not knowing. They’re like, not good people for purposefully doing that and being happy that we don’t know. And that says nothing about us and everything about them.
Samantha: You know, if you’d have asked me, if your husband ever cheated, I’m like, I’m out of there. I’m leaving. But you don’t know until you’ve actually experienced it.
Counseling & Recovery Attempts
Samantha: And I wanted to save my marriage. We’d been married just over 20 years and had a blended family of six children. His first wife died of cancer when the boys were three and six. And together we raised six children, and I expected to be forever with him. So we went to counseling together, marriage counseling. and separate therapy. And he joined the addiction group to help with his addiction.
Anne: So even though you’d known about his addiction, your whole marriage. He didn’t start addiction recovery until after you found out about the affair. Now I know your story, so I know there are multiple affairs that you find out about later, all just contiued betrayals of your trust. Knowing your story, at this point you began doing a bunch of things that the marriage counselor suggested or he suggested. Can you talk about that?
Samantha: Oh, yeah, initially it was his idea for me to track him. I had access to all his everything, passwords and whatnot. I had an app that tracked everywhere he was, and if he was with anyone. Like in business or having lunch or with anyone, he would send a picture.
Anne: I’m actually wondering, and I don’t know if you’ve thought of this, but that he maybe had a burner phone or something, and so he suggested it knowing that he could gain your trust but still get away with it.
Samantha: I mean, he could have left his phone on his desk and gone out, and I wouldn’t have known. That’s stressful, and it creates anxiety.
Husband’s Final Betrayal OF Trust & Divorce
Samantha: If I look at the app and see, oh, is he supposed to be here? It was exhausting. I’m constantly missing out on what’s going on in front of me. And I couldn’t do it anymore. To me, character is defined by how you behave when no one’s watching. So I wanted to see how he’s going to behave? I said to him one day I’m going to keep taking care of the bills, and I’m going to delete the app so I no longer track you.
And, within a week, he signed up with a couple of the sleazy dating sites. And, in no time, I found a 27 year old girl he met up and paid for sex in a hotel. Continued betrayal of trust from my husband. Another week went by, and we had our 20th anniversary. And I served him with divorce papers on our anniversary. I felt like I was worth more than what I was receiving. And I couldn’t keep putting myself in that place of pain. I wanted to move forward and have joy in my life again.
Samantha: I narrow it down to: avoid alcohol and cannabis. Alcohol is a depressant, and you’ve already got a gaping wound. You don’t need to add salt to it. And, find someone to talk to, preferably someone who specializes in betrayal.
I needed help, and I wanted someone experienced in betrayal. So thank you. My pastor referred me. That makes you know that you’re not alone.
Anne: Well, Samantha, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today.
Samantha: Thank you for having me.
7 Things To Know When You’re Mad at Your Husband
Jun 24, 2025
So many women struggle with the question: “What to do when you are mad at your husband?”. If you’re angry because your husband has harmed you, your anger makes sense. Did you know that legitimate anger is not bad, and in fact, it’s helpful?
Anger is a natural response to harmful treatment, and it helps you know that something is wrong. It’s like a sacred internal warning system, alerting you to danger and calling you to action.
Let your legitimate anger help you identify the real issue
When women take a moment to evaluate why they feel angry, they can determine the source. Often they’re experiencing anger in reaction to their husband’s anger and emotional abuse. They feel scared, frustrated, tired, hurt, and overwhelmed.
At BTR.ORG we encourage victims of emotional abuse to think differently about their anger.
To discover if your husband’s anger is actually emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcription: what to do when you are mad at your husband
Anne: It’s just me today.
Has anyone else ever noticed that society has double standards for men and women’s anger? Society often celebrates and justifies men’s anger, while it views women’s anger as irrational and emotional.
The Double Standard of Anger
Anne: Like if he says, “My wife cheated on me, and it makes me so angry.” Everyone would be like, yeah. I would be angry too. But if a husband cheats on his wife and she gets angry, somehow people blame her anger for his cheating. Anger for him is always justified as a response to apparent harm. For women, anger is considered a condition – like, “She’s angry” as if it’s a character trait rather than an emotion.
If your husband’s behavior is destructive, like he’s always angry, he’s lying to you, or he’s emotionally abusive, it’s not wrong to be angry.
Here are seven reasons why your anger is not bad.
1. Anger alerts you to Unfair Treatment
Anne: Number one, anger alerts you to unfair treatment. Anger is your mind and body’s way of signaling to you that something is wrong. So when you feel a surge of anger, take a minute to determine what the anger is about.
Instead of like pushing it away and thinking I shouldn’t be angry, accept the lesson it’s offering you.
It might help you determine your level of emotional safety, and then you can start to heal from emotional abuse.
2. Anger Motivates Action
Anne: Number two, anger motivates action.
I believe God gave us anger to help us take action and protect ourselves.This can be confusing, because abusive men are often angry due to their exploitative privilege. Meaning that they get angry when people resist their exploitative behaviors.
And that is NOT a good reason to be angry. That’s actually an exploitative reason, and their anger is emotional abuse, because they’re using their anger to manipulate you. They’re using their anger to scare you or threaten you, so they can continue to exploit you.
However, if protection and safety are your top priorities, your anger is NOT BAD. It can actually help you get to safety.
3. Anger Clarifies Reality
Anne: Number three, anger clarifies reality.
One of the hardest parts about emotional abuse is that it muddles your sense of reality. The gaslighting and manipulation can make you doubt your own thoughts and feelings. Anger cuts through that confusion. It’s an inner voice that’s saying this is not okay.
4. Anger Restores Your Sense of Self
Anne: Number four, anger restores your sense of self.
Emotional abuse often chips away your sense of identity, leaving you feeling small, powerless or invisible. But anger can strengthen your connection to your authentic self by reminding you of your worth and helping you get in touch with your own emotions.
5. Anger Builds Resilience
Anne: Number five, anger builds resilience.
Women who acknowledge and channel their anger constructively often use it to fuel their personal growth. For example, I felt intense anger when I started podcasting and created the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. My ex-husband’s oppression for eight years after our divorce angered me, motivating me to dedicate all my effort to this podcast and our services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, especially the Living Free workshop.. The situation infuriated me, and I became determined to find a way to free myself from him, which I’ll discuss a little later.
6. Anger is not bad – Interrupts Manipulation
Anne: Number six, anger interrupts manipulation.
Emotional abusers rely on manipulation to maintain control in relationships. And they use tactics like belittling or guilt tripping, or even grooming to manipulate you.
When you internalize that your righteous anger is not bad, it becomes harder for him to manipulate you.
7. Anger is not bad – it Sparks Hope for Change
Anne: And number seven, anger sparks hope for change.
You might think this is ironic.
It may sound counterintuitive, but anger can lead to hope. Anger signals that you can recognize the injustice happening to you, and that you’re ready to take action to protect yourself.
Countless women who have shared their stories on the BTR podcast, describe anger as the emotion that finally allowed them to see a future beyond abuse. A future filled with safety and dignity.
If your husband is angry, but he says that you can’t be angry about his anger. Know that anger as a response to abuse is a sign of strength, not weakness.
People often misunderstand anger, especially in women who are conditioned to suppress it or feel ashamed. Know your anger is not bad. When you face emotional abuse, your anger can empower you to see the truth and take action.
Personal Journey with Anger
Anne: Years ago, I felt really angry, and people kept saying I had a problem with my anger. I didn’t believe it was a problem because I saw it as righteous anger, completely justified.
Like, who wouldn’t be angry?
My husband lied to me, cheated on me, and exploited me for his own gain.
He didn’t care about me at all and now I have to live with the consequences of that. Like. Of course, I’m angry.
Like, why are you not angry about it? What’s wrong with you, that you’re not angry about the situation.
Studying Scripture Showed Me anger is not bad
Anne: I am Christian. So I turned to studying the scriptures to try to like process my anger, to figure out what God thought about my anger.
And interestingly, through that study, I actually came up with the Living Free strategies that enabled me to deliver myself and my kids.
Living Free Strategies To Make Anger Work For You
Anne: The recording I’ll play is from when I studied and tried to figure out what God wanted me to do to be delivered. You can hear the hope in my voice.
A year or two after this recording, I discovered the Living Free Strategies and used them to completely free myself and my children from our abusive situation.
If reading scriptures is triggering and you want to skip the rest of this episode, go ahead. Or you may want to listen to hear when I’m trying to figure out if my anger is okay with God, and let it guide me.
I hoped for deliverance, even when I had no evidence of it.
So here is this recording from years ago. Hopefully, it will be helpful to you.
what to do when you are mad at your husband: Righteous anger in Scriptures
Anne: Once I realized that if I didn’t feel angry, something would be wrong with me, things started to change.
If I didn’t feel angry, I would be weird. Then, I could actually embrace it. Many righteous people throughout all of time have felt righteous anger and a desire for justice. Righteous anger is not bad.
There’s no way that I, by myself, can make all things right for me and my kids. For me, as a Christian, relying on My Savior brings me peace and hope. And I know that all I need to do is set that boundary and maintain it. And when I continue to maintain it, I’m standing for truth and righteousness, and hopefully I will be delivered.
The scriptures, talk about righteous people who are healthy going through great trials. And the Lord promises them peace.
Moses’ Example of Righteous Anger
Anne: People like Moses, Elijah, David, and even Jesus demonstrated that righteous anger is not bad. In Mark 3:5, for example, it’s talking about the Savior. And it said, “and when he had looked roundabout on them with anger being grieved for the hardness of their hearts.” Repeatedly. The scriptures talk about God being angry about wickedness. “His anger was not turned away, but his hand was stretched out still.”
Moses uses his righteous anger to deliver the Israelites from the bondage of Pharaoh, and helps them walk through the Red Sea on dry ground to safety. And then they end up wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, right?
That’s how I felt—God freed me from bondage, led me through on dry ground, and now I’m wandering in the wilderness, unsure of what will happen and still facing serious trials. This pattern has existed since the beginning of time.
And there are a bunch of war chapters in the scriptures. I’m going to read some today that have helped me understand righteous anger and what that looks like. The point of this is not to proselytize by any means. I respect all your views. However, this is how God showed me that my righteous anger is not bad, and how to allow it to guide me toward deliverance.
Scriptural Examples of Righteous Anger
Anne: Moroni who is the captain of an army is one of the most righteous men in the scriptures.
It says, “And verily, verily, I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever, yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. Moroni is described as an extremely faithful, extremely righteous man.”
“He was a man of love and perfect understanding,” it says. “A man who did not delight in bloodshed, a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his brethren from the bondage of slavery. Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people, a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.”
So it says specifically in Alma 48 verse 12, “He labored for the safety of his people.” And then in 13, “Yea, he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and taught to defend themselves against their enemies.”
“Yea, they were also taught never to give an offense. Yea, never to raise the sword, against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives. Nevertheless, they could not suffer to lay down their lives that their wives and their children should be massacred by the barbarous cruelty of those that were once their brethren and had left them.”
Anger is not bad – it helps you create Boundaries
Anne: Moroni is saying if you have harmed your children or your family, you cannot be here anymore. So, they create boundaries for safety.
Alma chapter 50 verse 18 says, “and thus we see how merciful and just are the dealings of the Lord to the fulfilling of all his words unto the children of men.” And the Lord says to them in verse 20, “Blessed art thou and thy children and thou shall be blessed but remember in as much as they will not keep my commandments, they shall be cut off.”
Now when we recognize that our spouse has not been healthy and is not making good overt or covert choices, we get the consequences of that, and our homes are in chaos, and things start to fall apart. And we start suffering from the unrighteousness of someone else, which is extremely painful and difficult, especially if we’re doing the right thing. In this case, our anger is not bad.
And it says in verse 21, “and we see that these promises have been verified for it has been their quarrelings and their contentions, yea, their murderings and their plunderings, their idolatry, their whoredoms and their abominations, which were among themselves, which brought upon them their wars and their destructions.”
Anger is not bad when you’re resisting Abuse
Anne: The battle between an abuser and his victim at home brings all types of contention and chaos.
Those who were faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord were delivered at all times. While the wicked, brethren, having been consigned to bondage, perish. You are feeling the effects of that, and it does not feel good. Your anger is not bad.
It feels miserable, and that’s what Moroni felt, too. He felt like being in the situation where there were people who were not doing the right thing, who were not making healthy choices, it was miserable.
In Alma 52, verse 21, it says “and it came to pass that Moroni, having no hopes of meeting them upon fair grounds, can see that it is impossible to talk with these people who are lying and deceiving. On fair grounds, therefore, he resolved upon a plan.”
So, in several verses, it says that he is going to deal with them by stratagem, that he’s not going to actually speak with them, because that doesn’t get him anywhere.
Anger is not bad – it leads you to safety
Anne: If a person is too unhealthy to talk to, I need to figure out a way to get to safety, which doesn’t involve confronting them directly.
In chapter 54, verse 7, Moroni says, “Yea, I would tell them these things if they were capable of hearkening unto them. Yea, I would tell them concerning the awful hell that awaits them. Accept they withdraw and return their armies to their own lands. But as they have once rejected these things, and fought against the people of the Lord, even so, may I expect they will do it again.”
So Moroni’s saying, I just keep seeing this pattern over and over and over again.
And then he says in verse 11, “Behold, it’s supposed with me that I talk to them concerning these things in vain. Or it supposeth me that thou art a child of hell.”
So, Moroni is angry, in a good way. Then in verse 13, he says, “Behold, I am in my anger, and also my people. We have only sought to defend ourselves.”
And that is a righteous thing to do. Recognizing that righteous anger is not wrong.
Moroni is the most righteous person. And he is doing that. So we can follow his example with peace and with confidence.
Standing Firm Against Harm
Anne: Alma 55, says, “For I will not grant unto him that he shall have any more power than what he hath got.” Chapter 57, verse 20, says, “They were firm and undaunted.” I’m going to add, in their boundary, although it doesn’t say that.
In verse 26, miracles start happening. In says of Moroni’s people, the women and the children and the righteous people, “Now their preservation was astonishing to our whole army, yea, that they should be spared.”
“And we did justly ascribe it to the miraculous power of God because of the exceeding faith in that which they had been taught to believe, that there was a just God and whosoever did not doubt that they should be preserved by his miraculous power.” In chapter 58, verse 6, It says, “And the wicked were sallying forth against us from time to time, resolving to destroy us. Nevertheless, we could not come to battle with them, because of their strongholds. And it came to pass that we did wait in these difficult circumstances for the space of many months, even until we were about to perish for want of food.”
So they’ve created a boundary, they’re waiting it out, and it’s not going well for them. And then, The Lord’s promises are revealed.
Why God Gave Us Anger
Anne: Let me pause here as modern-day me to reflect on what I’ve learned through my experiences with the stages of anger after betrayal.
There were countless moments when I didn’t know how I’d pay my bills or keep my home. I couldn’t see a way forward, yet I kept moving, step by step, trusting that somehow, things would work out. And they did. Time and again, the Lord provided just what I needed. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I’m not in that same day-to-day survival mode anymore, but I know that if I ever find myself there again, I can look back on those times and trust that things will be okay. That trust didn’t remove my struggles, but it gave me the strength to face them.
In the scriptures, Moroni describes being under siege, feeling surrounded and overwhelmed. In Alma 58:9, it states, “…we grieved and felt fear; therefore, we poured out our souls in prayer to God to strengthen and deliver us.”
That prayer isn’t just about deliverance—it’s about recognizing that righteous anger is not bad, it’s telling you something is not right and giving you a call for action.
And in verse 11, it says, “The Lord our God visited us with assurances…he did speak peace to our souls, and grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for our deliverance.”
That hope gave them the courage to act, to keep fighting. In verse 40, they declared, “We have received many wounds; nevertheless, we stand fast and are strict to remember the Lord our God from day to day.”
what to do when you are mad at your husband: Deliverance
Anne: “Yea, And it came to pass that the Lord our God did visit us with assurances that he would deliver us.”
“Yeah in so much that he did speak peace to our souls and a grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for deliverance in him.” And in verse 12, “And we did take courage.”
In 58 verse 37, “We trust God will deliver us, notwithstanding our weakness, yea, deliver us out of the hands of our enemies.” In verse 40, Talking about the righteous armies, and I’m talking about you, and I’m going to put a we instead of a they here, “But behold, we have received many wounds.”
“Nevertheless, we stand fast and we are strict to remember the Lord our God from day to day. Yeah, for our faith is strong in the prophecies concerning that which is to come.”
How Anger Can Help You
Anne: When I discovered the Living Free Strategies, I wanted to see if they would work for other women.
I didn’t know if it was just me, or if it was a fluke. So I mentored other women using the strategies, and we found they worked for everyone. Even if you’re not Christian.
The Living Free Workshop is presented in a more secular form. So the strategies apply to everyone.
But I’m so thankful. For my savior. For delivering my children and I.
My testimony of Jesus Christ is that he is the deliverer and he is our savior. And we can look to him.
And he will show us the path forward. That doesn’t mean we don’t get help or learn new things, right? We can learn through Living Free strategies, get help from a coach, or graphics on Instagram. In fact, so many women have told me they prayed to know what to do for help. And then they found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, it was an answer to their prayer.
If you’re not Christian, I hope that the information you find at Betrayal Trauma Recovery helps you find the peace that you deserve in your life.
Why Is My Husband Yelling at Me? – Cat’s story
Jun 17, 2025
If you’re wondering, “Why is my husband yelling at me?” the answer might surprise you. Here are 7 key questions to help uncover the real reasons behind his constant anger.
1. Maybe He’s Yelling Because He Has A Secret?
When your husband has something he wants to do that he doesn’t want you to know about. He will be very irritated when you ask normal everyday questions. Or try to interact with him like any normal person would. Hiding things from you is not only lying and deceit, it’s actually a form of emotional and psychological abuse. To know if he’s using any of the 19 types of emotional abuse to hide his secret, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
2. Is Your Husband’s Yelling About Overpowering You?
The purpose of yelling in the context of marriage is to overpower the other person. If he’s yelling at you, his primary motivation is to control you or the situation. Unfortunately for you, overpowering someone isn’t about relationship – it’s about control. If your husband frequently attempts to overpower you by yelling. He’s more interested in keeping his secrets hidden or exploiting you than solving problems.
3. Does His Yelling Solve Problems?
As previously mentioned, yelling is never about solving problems. Healthy people who are solution oriented ask questions to clarify or understand, not to overpower.
If he’s yelling questions at you, he’s doing it to prove you wrong, silence you, or invalidate you, not solve a problem. It’s important to understand this type of emotionally abusive dynamic, so you can use strategies to protect yourself. To learn more, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
4. When He Yells at You, Does It Hurt?
Your husband may claim that yelling is just part of normal communication. Or he may even insist that he isn’t yelling when he is. But if he’s yelling, he’s using his voice to intimidate, control, and degrade you. If it hurts, it’s actually emotional harm. To learn more about why this is emotionally abusive, listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.
5. Is He Yelling At You In Front Of Children?
When he yells at you to create an excuse to stomp off and do the secret thing he had planned, it creates an environment of fear and instability for children. They’ll feel like they have to walk on eggshells. Additionally, witnessing their mother be emotionally abused in this way can have long-lasting effects on children’s mental health and well-being.
6. Does Your Husband Say His Yelling Is Your Fault?
If he tells you he wouldn’t yell if only you (fill in the blank), that’s nonsense. He has a million choices about how he can respond, and yelling is only one of those choices. Did you know he could ask a question and listen to the answer? He could sit down and listen to what you have to say. He could stop being selfish. His yelling has literally nothing to do with you. If he blames you for it, that’s emotional and psychological abuse.
7. Does He Sound Like He Cares, But It’s Really A Threat?
If your husband yells at you and then says, “I don’t want to do something I’m going to regret, so I’m going to go cool off,” you might not realize it, but this can actually be a veiled threat.
What he’s really communicating is that he’s capable of harming you, whether physically or emotionally. By framing it this way, he shifts the responsibility onto you to avoid triggering his harmful behavior, which is a form of manipulation.
If he stonewalls you by stomping off, that’s a threat to your dignity. That communicates clearly, “You’re not worth resolving problems with.” Anytime a husband yells at his wife and stomps off, it’s an abusive threat meant to silence and overpower her, whether she recognizes it or not.
How To Stop My Husband From Yelling At Me
While there’s no way to stop your husband from yelling or change his character to be an emotionally safe person. There is a way to protect yourself. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily to provide healthy, compassionate support for women in this situation. Attend a session today.
Transcript: Why Is My Husband Yelling At Me?
Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Cat. Before Cat shares her story. Here are seven key questions to ask yourself to determine: Why is my husband yelling at me? And if his yelling indicates something deeper. And you’ll hear these themes throughout Cat’s story.
Cat: Thanks, Anne. I’m happy to be here.
Anne: I’m honored that you volunteered to share your story today. And I’m so sorry about what you’ve been through.
Cat: Thank you.
Anne: Let’s start at the beginning.
Cat: The beginning is way back in the nineties. My ex-husband and I met in college and started dating. We were married for about twenty five years. We were together for 28. Looking back, there were a ton of red flags, but I just had no concept of those particular types of red flags. One of the best things that the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community and the coaches had me do was write a timeline of our entire relationship.
Throughout the process of separation, divorce, and healing, whenever I would feel wobbly, I would just go back and look at that timeline, and it immediately grounded me. So, I still look at it from time to time, just to remember it was always there.
Recognizing Covert Narcissistic Abuse
Cat: It wasn’t me. The signs were always there. It took me that long to claw my way out. I think that’s probably the best thing any woman who finds herself in this situation can do. So many women are aware of the more overt and socially recognized forms of abuse. That’s what we’re on the lookout for. My parents raised me in the South. I was aware, staying away from the “bad guys.”
The guys who were more, maybe aggressive alpha males who were more overt in their expressions of aggression. Like men who are always yelling and stomping around. Oh, I would never end up in a relationship with someone like that. And I think most women have a hard time recognizing that highly intelligent, manipulative, covert, narcissistic type of abuse. That is consistently playing the long game. My ex-husband is considered a good guy.
He is very performative in his social kind of markers, very progressive, very liberal. He would seem very pro-women, sensitive, you know, all those things. But behind closed doors or with what probably feels like enabling company to him, there are many behaviors that I now recognize as problematic. One of the first was such an obvious red flag to me. Our junior year, we’d been dating for a while. But I had not seen any of the red flag behavior.
One of his dearest friends from childhood who also went to our college was his roommate. He pulled me aside and said, have you seen his dark side? And I didn’t know what he was talking about. I couldn’t even imagine what he was describing.
When Your Husband Is Yelling, Manipulative & Mooddy
Cat: He would act moody and grouchy for a prolonged time. His friend group had become accustomed to and sort of made space for. I now understand that friend group is what would be called flying monkeys and enablers. At the time, I didn’t know that. And he was sort of the alpha of that friend group. Even though he was not your typical alpha male. And it wasn’t long after that that I did see a sort of dark side come out. I couldn’t figure out what had happened.
I still don’t know why he directed the moodiness and grouchiness at me. But no reason could be provided for it, you know, and I had never experienced anything like that. So I said, you know, what’s going on? What’s wrong? What do you need? How can I help you? Doing all the things, and nothing I did made a difference. And then just like within 24 hours, I guess it passed, but there was no reason given. Eventually, the narrative became this is something the men in my family do.
We all struggle with anxiety and depression. He implied it was part of their genetic makeup.
Anne: I have developed a theory, and when my book comes out, it clearly outlines this. When they start to escalate to yelling and fighting like that for seemingly no reason, it’s because they have something else they want to do. But they can’t figure out how to get away from us.
Cat: Mm hmm.
Instigating A Fight & Stomping Off
Anne: So he starts yelling to instigate a fight. They can stomp off and do the thing they want to do, like solicit a prostitute, but they can’t say to you, Hey, you know what, I’ve got a prostitute to solicit.
Cat: Right.
Anne: And so I’m going to go, some of them will be like, I’ve got homework to do. And go and solicit the prostitute. So the question I have is, did he escalate to the point where he kind of stomped off?
Cat: Yes, that was always what would happen. He even told me he managed outbursts like that.
Anne: Was stomping off?
Cat: Yeah, stomping off, going on a walk, going out. And that became the protocol, his way of dealing with this over the decades. I can’t even believe it, Anne, but now that you’re saying it that way.
Anne: This is all theoretical, he admitted to you this is what my family does. But he didn’t say we know how to leave the house and make it your fault so we can go solicit a prostitute. I’ve interviewed over 300 betrayal trauma victims in long form interviews like this one. And in the 70s, the 1970s in the 1900s. Maybe they went to like the corner secret store, but I’ve seen it as a pattern.
And until you put the pieces together. It’s hard to know, because they would never ever admit it. That they just want you to think they got so mad at you because you’re so terrible. That’s the only way they could cool down, and they’ll maybe even say it in a way that makes them sound a little bit nice.
Psychopaths & Pity
Anne: Like I didn’t want to hurt you anymore. And so to explain why I yelled and stomped off to like, save you from my anger. When they invented a fight from nothing, to do the secret thing they wanted to do. That they had planned before they started the “argument.”
Cat: Yeah, yes, women who find themselves in this situation. The fact that we have a conscience makes it so easy to dupe us. By people who don’t have a conscience, because we just assume the person we’re with also has a conscience. So it’s hard to conceive the depth of manipulation and malignancy. And really, up until D-Day, I could not have conceived this was what was happening. I truly believed his rationales or reasons.
I know this is such a stereotype, but he had a lot of trauma in his childhood. His mother died in an accident when he was young. And a lot of the “moodiness, depression, and anxiety,” and I’m using air quotes there, because I no longer believe that’s what it was. But that’s what it was attributed to at the time. It was implicitly ascribed to that trauma, and I made space for that all the time. Even if it wasn’t directly talked about.
That was the narrative I created in my mind for what was going on and why he deserved compassion, understanding and support.
Anne: I had a therapist say to me once about my ex, he’s a psychopath, and I was like, what? She’d never met him, so she couldn’t diagnose him.
Blaming His Yelling & Anger On Something In The Past
Anne: She said, did he manipulate you to feel sorry for him to get away with yelling and bad behavior? And I said, wow, I didn’t think about that. She said one of the hallmarks of a psychopath is they want someone to pity them.
Cat: Yeah.
Anne: Because a healthy person does not want someone’s pity. They’re like, yeah, my mom passed away from a car accident when I was a kid. It was a real bummer, it’s sad, but like, I’m healthy now and here I am as an adult.
Cat: Yeah.
Anne: But they could use anything to elicit pity to do what they want to do. Let’s go back to that flying monkey friend. It’s interesting to me that you said your husband was the alpha of this group. Who I assume took his side later from the way you described it. What do you think his motivation was to ask if you had seen a dark side? Do you think he was trying to warn you?
Cat: I don’t know if it was out of concern for me. I have to share the tone of this friend group. They’re all very sweet. They’re all very kind. Well, I know one of them has attacked me verbally, talking about me behind my back. I don’t know that any of the rest of them have.
They have all, at least to me, said kind, compassionate things, but it’s that sitting on the fence. You know, I want to be nice to you. I want to be a good guy and say the right thing to you, but I’m also going to totally support your ex-husband.
It’s Not Our Fault That We Believe Them
Cat: Although when my ex husband, I think, notified some of his cohort and requested privacy or something like that. One of those friends reached out to both of us and said, I’m so sorry to hear this. If either of you want to talk, I’m here. And, I did contact him, and I told him everything going on. We had a long conversation, and he believed everything I said because he had seen things.
But he said to me, you know Cat, we all knew he was capable of this. We just hoped it wasn’t happening to you. That’s like verbatim what he said to me, and yet they’re all just there for him. So I thought the group was all kind, all sensitive, all good guys. And yet they are his enablers to the end. I’ve since cut ties with everyone. Like, all of them, even though some of them were my friends, separate from my ex-husband before we got together in college, even most of his family, I’ve cut ties with.
I do have intermittent contact with his brother and brother’s wife from his family, who do not speak to him anymore. But the rest, I’ve cut everyone out.
Anne: That’s so hard. We perceive it as a warning, but part of me wonders if they’re testing the waters.
Cat: Mm hmm.
Anne: Because many of them drop the mask a little bit before the marriage, and then they put it back on. And I often wonder if it’s a little bit of a test, and again, this is not our fault that we believe them. Which is the most awful, unconscionable thing to think.
Abuse Cycles & Realizations
Anne: A normal person would be like, shoot, she believed me. I better tell her the truth so that she knows what she’s getting into.
Cat: Yeah.
Anne: uh, it’s awful.
Cat: Yeah, after that first, I didn’t know what it was at the time, but now I understand that was abuse early on. Nine months into dating, it didn’t happen again for a long time. I couldn’t figure out why those cycles of yelling and anger got closer and closer together, and it took 15 or more years. I mean, I was in my 30s with three children before I realized, like, this is just my life. It’s just one big, and I didn’t have the word abuse cycle then. But I understood that this is all the time now, it’s not intermittent episodes anymore.
It is just a constant, daily grind. We all know the frog in the pot of boiling water analogy. I look back now and understand the behaviors. Especially the outward behaviors that were happening within our various friend groups over the decades. They meant to create his false image to hide his secret behaviors, secret basement. And covert abuse while simultaneously invalidating me. So that if I ever went to someone, I wouldn’t be believed. He did actually write that to me.
He admitted he did that on purpose. So I know that the gaslighting, which was happening outwardly with our friends. Him putting on the mask of a good guy, all the way to him encouraging me to go to the Women’s March in DC. Like almost to the point of like, if I didn’t go, it would be disappointing him. Because that’s part of his mask.
My Husband Yells & Abuses Because It Works
Cat: The fact that he would be married to a feminist means there’s no way he could do what he’s doing. You know, it’s like a decorator crab. They’re just putting all these things on their shell, and I was like his crown jewel. But I was just social capital, that’s it. And I know now that’s what our family was. So that long game, it’s hard to wrap your mind around how deep and calculated it is. I still struggle with wondering, is it all conscious or “he can’t help it.”
And I’m saying that with air quotes like, he can’t help it. Not like, oh, poor him. I don’t feel that way at all. But that it’s such a part of who he is. And it’s kind of gotten to the point where it doesn’t matter to me. I just know that I want that level of manipulation nowhere around me. And, I know it works on many people, and I can’t worry about that.
Anne: And the answer might be that they yell and abuse because it works.
Cat: Yeah.
Anne: It allows them to exploit people. It allows them to work the least amount.
Cat: Yep.
Anne: In terms of emotional work, psychological work, and even physical labor. It allows them to have all the privileges of a family without having the responsibilities.
Cat: Yeah.
Anne: A survey done in prison that the counselor asked the abusers in the prison, why would you abuse? They just had lists and lists of reasons, all the entitlements they get. And then he said, why wouldn’t you? And they said things like, because I might get thrown in jail.
False Disclosures & Therapy Manipulation
Anne: Because people might not like me, and guess what wasn’t on their list, because I care about her, was not on the list. So anytime someone lacks that basic human care for their own partner, and everyone is just fodder for exploitation, They’re just going to do what works and controlling people with anger and yelling works .They’re very practical, not to their credit, but their values and moral system are only based on what works to get them what they want, not what is the right thing to do.
Cat: Yeah, and I think that goes along with what I was talking about. People with a conscience have a hard time comprehending the behaviors of people without a conscience. It causes us to give them the benefit of the doubt all the time. And then the people without a conscience use that against us or use that for their own betterment.
To your point, about the therapist saying your ex husband was a psychopath. We did couple’s therapy for probably eight years, almost weekly, because of a fake disclosure that happened.
Anne: He lied about something he did?
Cat: I know crazy, right? He lied about something. Yeah, so this is, it’s almost like hard to believe I didn’t see it. So we had many, many years of abuse cycles, increasing in regularity. I had begged him to go to therapy, but there was so much I didn’t know about getting a therapist for my abusive husband. for a long time. He wouldn’t do it. He also had pretty regular impotence, which I had personally seen professionals about. Because I didn’t want a loveless marriage.
Discovering The Truth
Cat: And I eventually encouraged him to seek help about it. I remember asking him if men attracted him. And I didn’t know about exploitative content use at that time. I had no concept that this material induced impotency. And no professional I went to, you know, doctors, therapists, acupuncture, whatever. No one said, could it be this? Nobody said that to me. So I went to him and said, can you go get checked out? Let’s figure out what’s going on, and he came back.
He said everything’s fine, they just said it’s anxiety, but the abuse cycles associated with his impotence were the worst. I had three kids, eventually I just kept them away as much as possible. While he was like in a dark room, on the computer and grouchy. So his dad, came to visit one time. He saw what was happening, and came to me and said he didn’t like what he was seeing. And I said, can you tell him to go to therapy? Because he won’t listen to me.
So he went to therapy after his dad told him to. He got on some anti-anxiety medication, and things nominally improved. The yelling and abuse cycles were still there, but they were not as extreme. And then he came to me and said, I’ve been talking to my therapist and I need to confess something to you, because I’m worried about how I might act on this impulse I’m having.
He said, I just wanted you to know that I was watching this horrible stuff. I have to admit, I didn’t care about it at that point. And I just thought it was something most guys did. I didn’t know all the harms associated with it.
Concocting A Lie To Preempt Discovery
Cat: I didn’t like it, but it wasn’t an area of concern for me. So he said I watched it, and all these pop up windows came up, and I clicked on a website. I started talking to a bot, and it was taking me further into chat rooms. And these are his words. “I was getting worried about how far I was going,” he said. “I ended up on a website called Ashley Madison”, and he said, “All I was doing was talking to people.”
But again, I had no idea, I mean, I look back now and I’m just like, I’m a different person, but I said, Ashley Madison. And then I realized what Ashley Madison was. I did not think he was cheating, I believed what he said about just talking to people.
Anne: For women who may not be aware of the Ashley Madison scandal, can you give a brief overview of that?
Cat: It’s a website for married people to sign up to cheat on their spouses.
Anne: Right, they hacked it and released all the names?
Cat: Well, I didn’t know that, but yes, that’s why he did it. Yes, he was preempting.
Anne: Exactly, he was getting ahead of it just in case you discovered it.
Cat: Yes, exactly. It was a fake disclosure.
Anne: That time, you think, of course he’s telling the truth. Because why would he tell me if he didn’t tell the truth? There’s no way you’d think he concocted a lie preemptively, so that he could lie to you if you discovered the truth.
Cat: Exactly.
Going No Contact
Anne: When you said the abuse cycle with the impotence was the worst. That may or may not confirm my theory. That the reason why he’s yelling and angry is because you’re obstructing them from using. Or hooking up with married women on Ashley Madison. Because anytime you try to talk to them, if they’re like on their way to use it, or if they’re on their way to do the thing they want to do.
They’ll be extremely irritated. And mad at you, so that they have an “excuse” to go do something else. And that also might explain why he was so impotent at that time. Because if you’re using every day or multiple times a day, you’re definitely going to be impotent with your wife.
Cat: Yeah, and he told me at the end of the marriage that there were times where he was using it seven hours a day. He would leave his tech job and meet up with like Craigslist hookups. Which who knows, and my oldest son said to me, you would be an idiot to believe a word that comes out of his mouth at this point.
And that was just a few months after he admitted the “real” and I’m saying real in air quotes. Because I’m sure that’s the tip of the iceberg. Whatever he admitted. I mean, we had 26 years of him doing stuff. I don’t know about, whatever he admitted. There’s way worse out there, but that’s all I needed. And that’s when I went no contact.
Couples Therapy & Narcissism
Cat: But after the first fake disclosure regarding Ashley Madison, he had a whole plan in place. He had already contacted a couples therapist. He said, let’s start doing couples therapy. I want to use this to rebuild our marriage and all this stuff. And I never enthusiastically agreed, but I definitely acquiesced. And so we spent eight years in couples therapy, I realize now what garbage that was. He used couples therapy to manipulate me.
When more truth came out, I scheduled an appointment with that therapist and recounted several times. I had tried to point to what happened. And was silenced in couples therapy. That couples therapist, to his credit, said he’s definitely a covert narcissist. And I think he’s a sociopath. Probably like your therapist saying, your ex-husband was a psychopath. This therapist saw my ex-husband weekly for eight years. So that was eye opening for me.
Anne: That’s the first time the therapist recognized he lied for eight years. The fact that someone can go to therapy every week for eight years and lie the entire time. My ex did it through addiction recovery therapy. He’d go to 12-step meetings and lied to everyone. He enjoyed every minute of it.
Mine loved therapy. When I mentioned, hey, let’s go to therapy. He was like, yes. Once they discover that therapy will work for them, they don’t mind it at all. A lot of women think, if I could just get him in therapy, and it sounds like you thought that.
Cat: I did!
Anne: Then you did. And it gets worse.
Weaponizing Therapy
Anne: They learn how to weaponize the therapy against us. So that they seem better and sound good. Yours was already good at that, so it makes them even more scary. So yeah, if you’re listening, thinking if he would only go to therapy.
Cat: It’s dangerous. Especially couples therapy, when you’re considering intensive couples therapy because couples therapists assume an equality of good intention. That both people are there because they’re trying to improve the relationship. That’s part of how they train therapists. But in reality with emotional abuse, where it’s hidden, even from the victim. It’s really dangerous, and therapy becomes a tool for further manipulation and control. And that’s definitely what happened.
The way I was able to gain awareness of the reality that what I was living with was abuse. Started when I discovered a large bag of marijuana in his backpack. While I helped my middle son look for something he had lost that my husband was mad about.
And I was trying to help him avoid his dad’s ire by helping him look for this thing. I opened up my husband’s backpack, and there was a big bag of marijuana in there. And he had been saying in therapy, he wasn’t doing anything. He wasn’t looking at exploitative material. He wasn’t doing drugs, he wasn’t doing all the stuff. And I just lost it.
Like I could not believe the level of deception I was still dealing with, and my husbands lying all the time. And so we had a big heated argument that night he did a lot of yelling. He’d obviously thought about, if he got caught, what he would do.
PTSD & Realizations
Cat: And he immediately redirected the conversation to the fact that he has an addiction problem with drugs and alcohol. This was news to me. I had no idea. I don’t think he actually, I mean, I think it’s more that he has a problem with entitlement. And if he wants to do something, he’s going to do it. Whether he said he won’t, or whether it’s harmful to others.
So, he said, I’m going to start going to AA, I’m going to go, do all these 12-step things. My oldest son had done a wilderness therapy program, and we were still working with his therapist from that program. I also now understand that was a whole redirection away from my husband’s issues to scapegoat my child. But anyway, I called that therapist to tell him what was going on. And he said to me Cat, I think I’ve seen signs in you of PTSD in our family sessions.
I think something’s going on and I recommend you look at, I think he gave me the name of a podcast, like the Betrayed and the something. And my ex husband started doing a men’s program and determined he had a problem lying. That was his problem. I was diagnosed with PTSD, or CPTSD.
Anne: I’m going to jump in and say, that there’s the P in CPTSD, the post.
Cat: Right.
Anne: If he’s still yelling, lying, and raging around. It’s not post, it’s still happening.
Cat: Right.
Anne: If they’re going to diagnose us, which I have to tell you, I disagree with. I think they should look at us and say, you’re acting completely normal. You’re not diagnosed with anything. And it’s not post anything. You’re still experiencing abuse.
Empty Pronouncements That He Would Stop Yelling & Lying
Cat: Yes. He did that program. And we were still in constant contact. I look back now and all our text exchanges, and I can’t believe how much energy I put into explaining human decency to him for so long. He obviously knew, I mean, after that program, a few months later, he started another men’s program. And, then I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Then he finished the program, all the while making pronouncements to me, “Oh, I’m going to do this.” And “Here’s all of this.” And then he said he wanted a divorce. And the biggest tell to me was that I wasn’t even sad. I was sad about our family, and I was scared. There was a lot of fear, but I’ve never once missed him.
Anne: Yeah, that is a good sign, or not.
Cat: Yeah.
Anne: It’s not a good sign, but that’s a sign.
Cat: It’s very clear, yeah.
Anne: Clarifying, I’m so glad you discovered that. I used to recommend men’s programs, and I don’t anymore because of this.
Cat: Totally, through this program, my ex-husband found a way to manipulate through therapy language. He went to those AA meetings and 12-step program meetings. And would come home and disparage all the people in those meetings and say like, Oh, I’m not as bad as those guys. You know, comparing himself to how much better he was than all these other people at these AA meetings, but yet he would still use them to build up his ego and stuff.
Anne: This is why it does not help them.
They Don’t Believe His Yelling & Lying Is Abuse: Fooling Trained Therapists & Courts
Cat: No, I don’t think anything would. I mean, even now he’s donning a new costume of healed or healing. Good dad, I know he dog whistles to all his enablers that this is my fault. Because his needs weren’t being met, he had to do what he did. And I even heard him say this through a year through the divorce and family court mediation. I know he even told the assigned family mediator he did what he did, so he didn’t hurt me.
And she ate it up, and she’s a highly trained therapist, and she repeated his words to me. The institutions around therapy and the way therapists are trained. From family court, to the criminal court system, to social systems in general, are all designed to support the main characters, which are these privileged men.
Anne: When they’ve learned the right things to say. And as long as they play the game right, they maintain their privilege and their power.
Cat: Yeah, that’s right.
Anne: It’s extremely discouraging.
Cat: It is. I’ve just immersed myself in learning so much about it. I’m interested in Dr. Peter Salerno, and his books. Which say we have to stop trying to help these men.
Anne: Yeah, this is exactly why I don’t recommend men’s programs anymore.
Living Free Workshop Strategies
Anne: Due to hearing this story over and over from women over the years. And my own struggle to be free from this type of manipulation. I discovered and created the strategies in the Living Free Workshop. In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, 100 percent of the focus is on helping you. Does that mean I think he can’t change?
I don’t think that’s my call to make, the only person I’m concerned about is you. The only help you need is to see his true character. You can observe from a safe distance to see if he will continue to lie and exploit. Or will he make different choices? The strategies give you enough space to see who he really is and what he’s going to do. Because with a therapy program, a men’s program, or a couple’s program, you don’t get the space you need to see him for who he really is.
It just becomes an extension of his manipulation of you. You still have no way to protect yourself from his yelling and abusive behaviors. But the strategies in the Living Free Workshop enable you to create space for yourself to see his true character, because truth is the only way out of this.
Cat: Right, that’s exactly right. That’s so good.
Anne: Our local domestic violence coalition, instead of putting more money into helping victims. They decided to do a men’s program. And I’m like, don’t do it. Because they know what they’re doing.
Hiding Patriarchy In Feminist Language
Anne: I don’t know if you’re a fan of the Barbie movie.
Cat: Yeah, I loved it.
Anne: Ryan Gosling goes into that office building, and he’s in the lobby. I’m gonna do this scene for everyone. Ken says, I’ll take a high level, high paying job with influence, please. And the corporate man says, okay, then you’ll need at least an MBA, and a lot of our people have PhDs. Ken says, Isn’t being a man enough? And the corporate man says, actually, right now it’s the opposite.
Ken says, You guys are clearly not doing patriarchy very well. And here’s the kicker. The corporate man says, no, no, we’re doing it well. Yeah, we just hide it better now. And that’s what you’re talking about. They’re hiding it in feminist language, but they’re not actually feminists. They don’t actually see women as equals. They want to hold on to their exploitative privilege. The part I loved about that movie is they know that.
Cat: They do. And you know, that’s why the covert abusers are probably the most successful now. Because there are so few avenues still socially acceptable to exercise dominance and control.
Anne: Right, yeah, and they’re getting good at it. So in court they intend to, and they know that they can dysregulate us by abusing us. Their intent in yelling to strike fear, to dysregulate us. So they can claim we’re crazy, and we look disheveled and freaked out because we are.
Cat: Yeah, I was even very put together and calm and poised in all our family court meetings, with the judge. They said point blank, we don’t talk about anything that’s come before in here.
Advocating For Children
Cat: We only talk about how we’re moving forward, which is crazy to me. Knowing all the written admissions I had from him, I was not allowed to even present that. This is the twisted thing about family court. I was the only one showing up and advocating for the kids. He showed up and advocated for what he wanted from custody. And they said if I didn’t stop, I would be labeled a parental alienator.
So I just said, okay, we’re just 50/50, we’re not 50/50. I have more custody, but yeah, it’s broken. I just want to say how grateful I am to Betrayal Trauma Recovery for really accelerating my healing. And giving me compassionate but radical acceptance. So that I could start to get myself to safety and my kids to safety.
Anne: Cat, thank you so much for sharing your story.
Stages of Betrayal Trauma: 4 Powerful Steps to Healing
Jun 10, 2025
A husband’s lying, infidelity, gaslighting, and emotional abuse causes betrayal trauma. The effects can leave women feeling lost, confused, and unsafe. Understanding the 4 stages of betrayal trauma can help you process what’s happening and take meaningful steps toward healing.
Most men who betray their wives are emotionally abusive. Before moving on, take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re also experiencing emotional abuse.
The 4 Stages Of Betrayal Trauma
When a husband lies, cheats, or manipulates, it can make a woman feel stressed and worried. She might have trouble eating or sleeping. Betrayal can hurt a lot, but that’s why it’s so important to figure out what’s going on. Then, you can start to heal and feel better as soon as possible.
Betrayal Trauma Stage 1: Confusion
Long before a woman discovers her husband’s lies or infidelity, women feel confused and unsure about what’s wrong. If it happens to you, you usually know something feels off, but it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what. This is critical, because that unease is your intuition signaling that there’s an issue. Often, abusers contribute to this confusion by blaming you, making you feel like you’re the problem. Many women try couple therapy during this time, which doesn’t seem to help.
Sometimes, trusted friends or professionals accidentally make things harder by giving simple advice. Like saying you should work harder on the relationship. During this time, it’s normal to feel confused and even blame yourself. However, it’s important to remember this: feeling confused means you are standing up to the abuse and trying to understand what’s really happening. Keep going, and don’t give up!
Betrayal Trauma Stage 2: Discovery of Lies & Infidelity
When a woman finds out about her husband’s lies and infidelity, it’s a new type of trauma – and also a relief. They feel relieved that they discovered what’s wrong, but they’re often re-traumatized. Because the wrong kind of support can worsen the trauma. Most professionals don’t understand that emotional abuse and coercion are what’s causing the betrayal trauma. Instead, they blame women and say she is the cause. This can be confusing and frustrating.
When you finally get the right kind of support and education, the puzzle pieces begin to fit together. You’ll recognize betrayal trauma for what it is, and you’ll start to see abusive patterns for what they’ve been all along.
You will see that lying and gaslighting are not your fault. These actions are done on purpose to hurt and control you. This is when many people stop blaming themselves. Then, they start setting rules to keep themselves safe, both emotionally and physically.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women know exactly what’s going on and gives them safety strategies to protect themselves from this type of emotional and psychological abuse.
Betrayal Trauma Stage 4: Safety Is The Treatment
The final stage is applying what you’ve learned to gain more and more emotional and psychological safety. At BTR.ORG, we help survivors protect their thoughts from manipulation and trauma. First, you’ll learn how to create a safe life for yourself. This could mean leaving an abusive husband or building strong emotional boundaries. Next, you’ll start to see how strong and capable you are. Step by step, you’ll gain the tools to feel safe and in control again.
Our coaches guide you step by step, so you feel calm and confident again.
The 4 Stages Of Betrayal Trauma: Take The Next Step
Betrayal trauma can feel really hard to handle, but you don’t have to face it by yourself. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we help women feel safe and start healing. No matter if you’re in a relationship, separated, or divorced, we have tools and resources to support you every step of the way.
Transcript: What Are The 4 Stages Of Betrayal Trauma?
Anne: It’s just me today, I’m going to talk about, the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. And how important it was to figure out how to set boundaries with my husband. That’s where the Living Free Workshop comes in. Because safety is the treatment. Women see that once they’re emotionally and psychologically safe, their betrayal trauma symptoms almost completely disappear.
I started podcasting in 2016. A long time ago. If you look at the podcast feed, it doesn’t go back that far. And the reason it doesn’t go back that far is when I started podcasting, I learned in real time and shared my experience of attempting to get to safety.
As I studied, I also did over 300 long form interviews with betrayal trauma victims, both on the podcast and in person. Through doing that, I began to see clear patterns. And I was also running my own experiments, seeing what worked and what didn’t in my own life. And seeing what was working and not working in other women’s situations. I learned the 4 stages of betrayal trauma.
After discovering the Living Free strategies, I actually got to safety. And then I realized that many of these very old recordings also had incorrect information. Theories or principles that I was testing through trial and error that I now know do not work. I didn’t want to hurt any woman, so I removed that incorrect information. But today, I’m going to share several recordings from long ago, when I was still trying to learn how to apply the safety principles.
You’ll hear a section where I talk about helping my son visualize his emotions. And those same types of visualizations are the pattern I later used to write in the workshop. I used that to help me heal, and has since helped so many other women heal from the inside out.
Sharing Old Recordings
Anne: As you listen to these old recordings, you’ll hear the seeds of all the services we have here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery being planted. And the rest of this episode is snippets from those old recordings. After seven years of attempting to “help my husband” deal with his addiction and his anger problems. He sprained my fingers and pushed me against the kitchen cabinets during an argument.
He was arrested for domestic violence. The judge gave him a no contact order, which is a protective order. And that was the first time I’d ever conceived that he was really an abusive person. I waited, hoping for him to take accountability, change, truly repent and return home to us for nine months. And he decided to file for divorce. During that nine months, I prayed and prayed. And the only answer I received was to start a podcast, which is how this podcast started.
I used to go by the name Anon, Anne Blythe is not my real name. My friend had a Facebook account with the name Anne Blythe. Named after Anne Blythe from Anne of Green Gables. I ended up adopting that name and that Facebook account to represent all of us, because my story is the universal story. The details might be a little bit different, but we all go through a period of trying to “help our husbands” or support him this is one of the first stages of betrayal trauma.
The 4 Stages Of Betrayal Trauma: Gardening As A Metaphor
Anne: I am an avid gardener. I have nine fruit trees, five 12 by two garden boxes, a huge section of my garden in my front yard, where I grow self-proclaimed prize winning pumpkins. On Monday, my five year old son and I planted the corn. It was such a sweet time. I dug the hole and he put the seed in. The obvious symbolism of faith that it takes to plant this seed so small and hope that in a few months we’ll have an eight foot stalk with delicious corn on it.
All my garlic is growing great, and I planted that in the fall. So planting a little bulb that, the next year, will turn into the most delicious, rich, buttery garlic. It’s called Romanian Red, and it’s amazing, and you can’t get it at the store. In my front yard, I have irises and tiger lilies, canna lilies and salvia. Every kind of beautiful perennial you can imagine. Every year they get better, bigger, and more beautiful.
It’s been almost three years since my ex’s arrest, and back then my front yard and all the perennials were kind of sad. It was like three irises that came up, but now they’re gorgeous. Everyone comments on how beautiful my garden is. I didn’t know that my garden would be so beautiful, but I had faith that it would be. And I dug things up, I split plants, and I moved things around.
And had faith that my hard work would pay off, and it has. I have not yet seen the hard work pay off with my setting boundaries.
Struggles Of Single Motherhood
Anne: My life is still really hard. I’m a single mom of three kids. Life is hard every day. It’s hard to get dinner on the table. It’s hard to keep the house clean, it’s really stressful and very overwhelming.
There are days when I sit on the couch and stare into space, and then end up crying because I’m overwhelmed. I’m still nervous about the future. I still don’t know exactly what’s gonna happen. But if my garden is any indication, as I stand there, especially my front yard with all the beautiful perennial flowers, I’m like, this feels safe, and this feels secure, and guess what else?
Beautiful, I have faith that my life will be beautiful like that. My garden has evolved to be something amazing. Maybe I will evolve to be something amazing someday. Right now, it seems like I’m still digging around in the dirt with nothing to show for it. Talk about late bloomer, I’m like the world’s latest bloomer, ha ha. But maybe when I do, I’ll be like that big, beautiful iris.
I want to talk about nightmares for a minute. My ex was supposedly in recovery, but I was still having nightmares. In the dreams, I was a single mom, and I knew I needed a husband. So I was like, there was that one guy I remember him. He was kind of nice. Where is he now? Why isn’t he here? And then I would try and find him and then I would find him and he would be kind of mean to me, brush me off. That was the nightmare. I had different forms of that all the time.
Nightmares & Intuition
Anne: I remember I would put my hand over on him and touch him, and be like, oh good. It was just a dream, whew, like every night. And then I would tell him about it, and I would say, I’m having these nightmares. I don’t know what’s wrong with me. Everything seems fine with us. One night when I was lying in bed right next to him, I said, I’ve been having these nightmares.
Not knowing this was one of the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. I really feel like something bad’s gonna happen. And I didn’t pause to let him speak. I said, yeah, but it’s just crazy. It must just be me. I’m still mentally messed up. Well, he never said anything about it. But now that I look back, he not only didn’t say anything, and I talked myself out of it.
But he also didn’t try and comfort me. There was a woman I talked to recently. She said, I’m having nightmares almost every night, but I wake up and look at him and everything’s fine. And I said, when you tell him about your nightmares, how far away is he? Is he standing more than four feet away from you? Looking at you, but not responding? She started crying. She said, that’s exactly what’s happening. Confusion is one of the 4 stages of betrayal trauma.
I said, I’m not sure what’s going on. But an empathetic, caring, connected person would not be four or five feet away in that situation. They would be giving you a hug. They’d say, I’m so sorry you’re having these nightmares. I love you. I care about you. Is there anything I can do? Something, some kind of connecting, interacting thing.
Stages Of Betrayal Trauma: Is Something Going On?
Anne: But the standing like four or five feet away with this blank stare on your face, like a deer in the headlights. And more and more as I hear these stories of women who have these nightmares. And then, months later, they find out something was really going on. Even though in their waking hours it seemed like everything was fine. Not to say that everyone who has a nightmare, her husband is lying.
Because thinking my husband was in recovery when he was not. He was lying to me and manipulating me. And I had those dreams. Now I see an indicator of a warning to me. Now that I’m disconnected from him. I rarely have those nightmares anymore.
I have a friend whose husband has labeled her borderline and kept taking her in to get help. Her husband had been lying to her and gaslighting her, and he had a double life. Addiction was going on, and this was a way for him to avoid anyone looking at him and making her look crazy. There’s no way to actually recover if you’re still being abused like this. This friend of mine, she has now separated herself from her abusive spouse, and her borderline symptoms are gone.
Now she’s having trauma symptoms. I have an unnamed autoimmune disorder. It’s not lupus, it’s not arthritis. I’ve been trying to get a diagnosis for a long time. I get super, super sleepy and all of my joints hurt really bad. So it has a lot of the same characteristics of these autoimmune diseases.
So the doctors are like, yep, you have one. We don’t know what it is, it’s unnamed. And we should call it the betrayal trauma autoimmune disorder.
Therapy & Being Present
Anne: I have spent so much time and money going to therapists, but not getting help for my trauma symptoms. I am paying them to sit there in their office and educate them about betrayal trauma. There was one therapist, it was like three months after my husband’s arrest. I was trying to convince her that my husband was abusive. It was crazy, wait a minute, what am I doing? I’m not going to her anymore. And I think she was confused because I didn’t want to divorce.
So she was like, you’re saying your husband’s abusive, but you don’t want to get a divorce. Like, I don’t know how to help you. Yes, he’s abusive, I don’t want to get a divorce, and I need help. Like, can you accept me where I am? And she had no idea how to help me. Part of my betrayal trauma symptoms were that I did not hear my children when they were talking to me.
And I wasn’t doing anything else. So I was available, and ready and willing to talk to them, but just didn’t hear them until they had said my name a few times. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, what is it? So zoning out, I found myself doing that frequently. So if I’m having a hard time concentrating. I feel the couch, maybe feel the couch fabric, maybe even touch my child’s arm, something that I can reconnect with the present moment.
I actually sat on the couch with my five year old son, and we just sat there for like, probably a half hour. And he was spouting off. I didn’t even know what he was talking about.
Striving For Peace & Stillness
Anne: I was listening to him. And I was acknowledging him. I was looking him in the eyes. I was like, let’s have a stare contest. And we just looked at each other and smiled for a while. And it was just that I thought, Oh, this is what I’m trying to do. Okay, I’m going to be in the here and now with my daughter. And I’ll be available to you.
That’s, I think my biggest hurdle is, I’ve sat here with her for four minutes, and this is boring and I need to do the dishes. That’s what I’m struggling with the most right now.
When I stop and stare at my daughter, I think, how long do I have to do this for? I want to get better at it and more practiced. Until that is what I crave, those quiet moments with my children, and living in that moment with peace and stillness. And also, my soul needs that every day. We need a period of time of quiet, both spending time with ourselves in a quiet place, and spending time with the people that we love.
Visualization & Healing From Betrayal Trauma
Anne: I’ve actually been doing visualization with my son every night about his emotions and his anger, and where he’s going to put it. One of the things we imagined was that he put all his feelings about how he doesn’t want to do his schoolwork. Like, I don’t want to do my work. I hate doing schoolwork, you know, that sort of thing in a box. And then if he was holding that box, could he pick up his pencil? to do his schoolwork. And he was like, no, I can’t.
So I said, well, where do you want to put the box? And he’s like, Oh, I’m just going to put it over here. And then he was like, Oh, mom, I can do my assignment now. He has improved significantly in his schoolwork. So using a betrayal meditation or visualization as a tool is an option for healing from betrayal trauma because I have used visualization before to be able to connect with my children.
Since that time, I haven’t solved all my problems. But in relation to my abusive ex husband, who abused me post divorce for eight years. I’m completely delivered from him, and so are my children. And I did this through the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop Strategies. I spent so much time and effort putting everything I learned over the years into that workshop,
Applying those strategies and having those strategies deliver us was for sure the miracle I had been praying for. And I hope you find all the strategies to be the miracle you’ve been praying for too.
Is Online Infidelity Cheating? – 7 Things The Research Confirmed
Jun 03, 2025
Did you recently discover you husband flirting with women online or using pornography? Are you confused, hurt, devastated, and afraid? If your wondering “Is online infidelity cheating?”, here are 7 things you need to know based on the research. Did you know that online cheating is a form of emotional abuse? To see if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
1. Sometimes What You Discovered Is Just The Tip Of The Iceberg
It can be really upsetting to find out your husband is talking to other women online or committing online infidelity. Learning about his lies and secret life might make you feel a mix of emotions like anger, sadness, confusion, and betrayal. You might wonder, “Why did he do this?” or “Am I not enough?” Online infidelity is cheating. These feelings are normal, and it’s important to let yourself feel them. Take it one step at a time, and don’t feel guilty for how you feel.
This level of deception is a form of intimate partner violence that includes emotional & psychological abuse and coercion. There’s no right way to react to this level of emotional and psychological abuse you’ve experienced up to this point. There’s also no wrong way to react. When it happened to me, I vacillated between wanting to be close to my husband and never wanting to see him again.
2. Online Infidelity: Many Women Have Discovered Their Husband’s Lies
Don’t get support anywhere that doesn’t consider this a serious emotional and psychological abuse issue. The significant trauma you’re experiencing is real. You deserve a safe place to process your trauma, without having to do anything for a man who’s been lying to you.
3. Is Online Infielity Cheating? It’s Not Your Fault
One of the first thoughts you might have is, “What did I do wrong?” But it’s essential to understand that your husband’s online behavior isn’t a reflection of your worth. His choice to view explicit content stems from his exploitative privilege, not from any failing on your part. Yes, online infidelity is cheating. seeing the situation accurately is crucial to begin making your way to emotional safety.
4. Learn What It Means To Be Psychologically Safe
Psychological safety means those around you value honesty. If you’re psychologically safe with your husband, that means he never deceives you or obscures the truth to construct a false reality. Establishing psychological safety from someone who has shown a history of deceit is important.
Amidst the chaos, it’s crucial to take care of yourself. Prioritize activities that make you feel good and distract you from the pain. Whether it’s reading a book, going for a walk, or spending time with friends, self-care is essential for your healing process. I watched all seven seasons of the Golden Girls, and I gardened. Anything that helps you is what you need.
6. Is Online Infidelity Cheating? Learn Effective Emotional Safety Strategies
Most women who experience this don’t know exactly what to do. Many turn to couple therapy, addiction recovery therapy, or clergy for help. Therapists and clergy don’t receive training in this type of abuse. They often prolong a woman’s suffering. To learn effective strategies and know what to do next, I enrolled in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It changed my life. I have no idea what I would have done without learning the safety strategies.
7. Only Seek Professional Help From Women Who Understand This Type of Abuse
Navigating the emotional turmoil of discovering your husband’s online infidelity can be overwhelming. Betrayal Trauma Recovery will help you walk through the chaos.
Transcript: Is Online Infidelity Cheating?
Anne: Heidi Hastings and Rebecca Lucero Jones, two researchers are back on the podcast today. They’re going to share the results of two studies.
Study 1: Impact of Partner’s Online Infidelity on Women’s Religiosity
Anne: The first is how their partner’s online infidelity affects women’s religiosity and spirituality.
Study 2: Impact of Partner’s Online Infidelity on Women’s Sexuality
Anne: And then the results of when they studied how a partner’s online infidelity affected a woman’s sexuality. Their research revealed some interesting things about online infidelity, otherwise known as pornography use.
Online Cheating? Detailed Findings On Women’s Religiosity
Anne: So Heidi and Rebecca, you studied how husband’s use affects women’s religiosity and spirituality. Can you share what you found?
Heidi: People taught them the husband is the leader in the home. They felt unsettled looking back on it, how that had actually put them at risk, or they’d given up their whole identity to serve him. And gender roles also within religion were disturbing to them that their role as a woman, as the wife in the home, was really dismissed. Tracy, a participant, looked at gender roles in scripture.
And she referred to the story of Queen Esther in the Old Testament. She said it’s not just the theme of strong women and saving the Jewish people in Persia. To me, the biggest theme is that men have always behaved badly with male entitlement, and that has been destructive to women. And women decided to stay in the marriage because of their religion. For some women, that was because they had honored their marital vows.
https://youtu.be/C0ctPvR-AgA
They were trying so hard to keep their part of the vows, regardless of what had happened. And staying in the marriage for the sake of religion didn’t mean they were healed or had a positive marital relationship. Many of them stayed in the marriage, and they were sleeping in different bedrooms or on different stories of the house. In order to make things work economically and keep their vows in what way they could.
But there were some women grateful that they had stayed in the relationship. Because of their commitments to their religion, because they healed the marriage eventually,
Varied Outcomes In Marriages
Heidi: Some who lived with this issue for a long time, the length of time since their discovery varied from nine months to two or three decades. Still had terrible marriages. We had many outcomes. About a third stayed married, and were happy with it. About a third stayed married, and were not happy with it. And about a third were divorced.
Anne: That answers my question. Because a lot of times I’ll interview them and they’re like, I did this program. It was incredible. He’s doing great. Our marriage is better. And then they’ll come back three years later and say, oh my word, he was lying to me the entire time, it was all grooming. I found something else. I’ve also found when a couple goes to therapy and they think that they’re successful, and the therapist thinks they’re successful, and it’s like, oh, awesome.
And then they don’t go to therapy anymore. And then If she finds out he was lying that entire time, they were going to that particular therapist. That they don’t go back to that same therapist, so they go to a different one. So that therapist would never know that he lied the whole time and was manipulating. They usually don’t circle back around to the same people they sought help from in the first place. They usually move on because they think like, well, that didn’t work.
Rebecca: Yeah, as a therapist, it is tricky to work with any type of infidelity or deception, because you don’t know if people are telling the truth. Clients lied to me many times. The wife may ask herself is online infidelity cheating?
Challenges With Therapists
Rebecca: It would be embarrassing to come back to the therapist and admit you’ve lied. And it could be the husband doing a power play to not return to the therapist.
Anne: Yeah, over seven years, we went to four different therapists, but I think going to multiple therapists is common. Was that a question in any of your studies?
Heidi: It was not, but several of the women brought that up. They went to therapists who didn’t help them. Who didn’t understand betrayal trauma. Who blamed them, or they felt disconnected from, and that was more harmful. And so they talked about switching therapists multiple times, without me asking anything about that.
So one of the other things that was big in the women wrestling with their religion was unmet expectations of religious leaders. So they thought their religious leader could fix the problem. You know, all he needed to do was talk to his religious leader, and somehow it would be fixed. They thought the religious leader would at least hold him accountable. Women felt disenfranchised when that didn’t happen. When clergy let husbands off easily.
The wives thought it was. And who knows, if he told them everything or just minimized it. Religious leaders gave them poor advice, because they didn’t understand the woman’s perspective of betrayal. And they felt like there were often dismissive attitudes.
Online Infidelity: Ruth & Nicole
Heidi: A woman named Ruth said, a bishop has got to be able to get him to stop and tell him that he can’t do this anymore. Then everything will be okay.
Nicole said, my religion didn’t give me the tools I needed to put my foot down earlier. This is my marriage too. You don’t get to be the authority on me if you’re acting in sin. A religious leader that tells me I need to have it with my husband more, and that’s how I’m going to help him stop online infidelity, is not speaking for Christ. She’s not speaking the Bible. She told me the story she heard.
Anne: Whoa, did you just say a woman religious leader? Who is causing marital coercion?
Heidi: Uh huh. Yeah, we had, we had several women that had women religious leaders.
Anne: And they weren’t better, huh?
Heidi: Not when they were speaking from tradition. This finding is that those wrestling with religion, who’d felt overlooked, ignored, dismissed and silenced by a leader. The resources all went to her husband, rather than resources going to support her. Rather than the leader regularly meeting with her, it was with her husband. So women experienced a sense of disenfranchisement with the expectations they had of their religious leader. Which they often projected onto the religion.
And they’re like, I don’t know what I believe anymore. Not all of them, but definitely some of them. And then they had these challenges to their faith. Because they felt their religious leader was linked to God or called by God. They pulled away from their church, a few of them, not a lot of them. One woman changed several times.
Women Wrestling With Religion
Heidi: She started as a fundamentalist Christian, a very, very, very fundamentalist conservative. Her pseudonym is Colette. She said, “All these people promised me in church that your virginity is the best gift you can ever give to your husband. Such bull*# and I don’t swear.” That’s a quote. She was like, I can’t believe how my leader taught me to serve, to do everything for him, and it put her in such a dangerous place.
So she changed religion several times. Another woman, Esther said, we pulled away from the church. I didn’t pray or look to God for anything. Serafina said, “I don’t go to the synagogue anymore. That loss is profound. I have so many rabbis and cantors with problematic behaviors as clients, and she’s a therapist now. She said, it just feels so hypocritical. Rituals are important to me.
What isn’t important to me is sitting and listening to a rabbi. Those who struggled with religion and left religion were a smaller percentage of our sample, but several struggled with multiple aspects of religion based on those things. Rebecca, do you want to take the next theme?
Rebecca: Yeah, I’m going to talk about a few different aspects of healing and what kinds of relationships were helpful. This is key. Because when a woman experiences betrayal trauma, many times women would first seek guidance from religious leaders, rather than secular sources. And I think a lot of this is based on the assumption that if you have a shared belief that online infidelity is a sin, and online infidelity is cheating? Definitely yes. You would get better support.
Support From Inside The Religion
Rebecca: And if you go to a secular source, that they may not share that belief with you. That your partner’s belief, you know, online infidelity would be harmful to you. The view of, is online infidelity is cheating. So it was important for them to seek support from someone who shared that, I would say worldview.
We found that those professionals and religious leaders who really tended to the intersectional nature of these women’s identity. Meaning that their female identity was not the only identity they had. But also their religious identity. That it was important that they understood what it meant to have both of these identities at the same time, right? Be a religious woman, and that tending to both aspects of their identity was critical to helping these women heal.
And also, I would say, find their own power. So one area that was important was support from inside the religion. So we talked about how sometimes religious leaders didn’t meet expectations. But when a religious leader was helpful to them, that was key, right? If they could show compassion, empathy and validation, this ended up being a safe place for them to share their experiences. It’s important that religious leaders show compassion and empathy.
When a woman shares that this is happening in the marriage, right? That her partner has extramarital behaviors. And she, a lot of times, doesn’t quite know how to interpret what’s happening. We had one woman who shared this beautiful response that her rabbi had. Tracy shared: she, meaning the rabbi took me to the mikvah. There’s a river that flows out of the Garden of Eden.
Is Online Infidelity Cheating? A Listening Rabbi’s Response
Rebecca: And when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, they were so disconsolate and so despairing. They went and sat in that river weeping. The Mikvah is the sacred immersion in the living waters that flow from the Garden of Eden. And can be used anytime you want to reconnect to sources of renewal and creation. After the pollution that had happened to me, we went to the mikvah. There are very specific prayers. You must be completely naked.
You’re immersing yourself back into the waters of creation for purposes of rebirth and renewal. That was wonderful. And so we loved that story Tracy shared. Because here we see a rabbi seriously hearing what she has to say. Recognizing that this woman needed rebirth, of some sort of renewal. She felt so broken by her experience. And so I think that’s a beautiful story of how religion or religious rituals can heal. When leaders listen and understand the experience of the woman.
The next part is to recognize the need for support outside the religion. So this was also helpful when religious leaders understood, I would say, the extent of their expertise. When a woman shares this, she often only knows the tip of the iceberg. She’s coming in crisis. So again, she hasn’t had the time to process all the things in the history where she may have felt or sensed something.
She really, I would say, most of the time doesn’t know fully what she’s dealing with the fact that online infidelity is cheating. And plus, her husband has made concerted efforts to deceive her, and she may never know the full extent of what’s going on.
Support From Outside The Religion
Rebecca: So when a religious leader gives advice based on one thing, she shares. Women in our study talked about how, if they couldn’t accept the statement I said about my partner emotionally abusing me. I certainly wasn’t going to tell them about the abuse.
Heidi: They kind of dip their toe in to see.
Rebecca: Yes, a lot.
Anne: If he’ll be empathetic about this, then I could tell him more, kind of a thing.
Heidi: Right, and so those who were met with compassion.
Rebecca: Yeah, so they would test whether they could trust a leader. One of the women, Nicole, said it was important that she began to understand. That what she was seeing with her partner was much more serious than just oh, I just looked at a website. It is a a breach of trust and online infidelity is betrayal. She talked about her husband’s problem and said he watched it while he was driving, which is why he got in a car accident.
He had five car accidents, and three were while watching it. He doesn’t learn. That’s why I tell him it’s not a sin. It’s an addiction, because no person is this dumb. As she learned more, she realized this is beyond the limits of a pastor. It’s dangerous. This finding, in particular, was interesting to me and Heidi, and it was that women need women for healing. What we found was that there was a lot of shame when somebody found out their husband was committing online infidelity.
And sometimes some of these women, their husbands, had other behaviors that were extramarital. And one of the things that helped these women was finding older women within their religious tradition.
Women Need Women For Healing
Rebecca: Sometimes they had female leaders, though that wasn’t as common. Older women in the church mentored Noelle and helped her get through it. And that was one way that women went around the structure in a religion where you see many male leaders. Another one Betsy, talked about building a support system with multiple women, including a coach, a support group, and friends.
So she built herself a little village of women that could support her. And she said, it was so beautiful to have a woman cheer for me, support me and delight in my achievements, and just be fine with all my mess. That shows the beauty of healing with other women in your corner. Hearing other people with a similar experience who have also been on this same journey. And learning about how they’ve navigated their faith, how they’ve navigated their healing.
That is a key part of many women’s healing. One of our participants, Faith shared, I was like, somebody understands. And the best thing was that I could see that people were farther along in the recovery. I want to die right now, but I might be okay after this is done. That captures how these groups give people hope for the future. And as a professional, I think it’s important for therapists to know that therapy may not provide the same level of hope. That you get in a group setting.
So I think encouraging clients to find, it could be online or in person, support groups can be important as she moves through this experience of figuring out is online infidelity a betrayal, and what about other behaviors?
Online Infidelity: Comfort From Thinking About A Female Counterpart
Heidi: Which we know you do, Anne, with Betrayal Trauma Recovery, so thank you for your work there.
Rebecca: Yeah totally. The last thing that women talked about in reference to women needing women for healing. Was how comforting it was to think about a female counterpart. To the male god commonly discussed and worshiped in their own religion. And one of our participants, Tiffany, described how this was for her. She said she started collecting art and studying Heavenly Mother. And how that was healing.
Tracy talked about how Judaism’s religious roots elevate women as equals and unified relationships with men. She explained that some words in Hebrew for God combined the masculine and the feminine. The term El Shaddai means breasts. And El, a Hebrew name for God, is directly derived from the name of the chief Canaanite male God represented by the bulls.
So you have the merging of the masculine and the feminine, often translated as God Almighty, the compassionate, strong, powerful God, the masculine and the feminine together.
It’s a religious belief that brought many women comfort to think about this feminine God. As someone who could understand her pain. It was very difficult with the traditional rhetoric in many religions, which may not necessarily deny the idea of a feminine God, but often leave it out in the discussions. And in terms of what they promote when they talk about God.
But it’s interesting that many people, even within the religious tradition. That there was room for some sort of feminine God. And that this was a significant part of their healing was turning to this feminine God.
Three Different Religions, Same Idea
Rebecca: Rather than a masculine God that they often felt wouldn’t understand the level of pain they were experiencing.
Heidi: About 10 percent of the women that spoke about this, but we felt like it was an interesting finding because they came from three different religions. I’m just going to read this quote. Colette said, “God is male and female. A group of pastors came here to hear me speak one time, and I made them read from the passage of the creation of Genesis. Where it says three times, in his image and likeness.
Male and female, he created them. I said, what does that say about the nature of God? One pastor said if that’s true, it changes everything. And I said, it is true, and it does change everything.
Anne: Oh, you’ve handpicked all the parts of the Bible that benefit you, but these parts you’re like, what? This is new to me. Okay. It’s been there the whole time.
Heidi: And it’s a pastor. So we loved the last theme, spiritual growth, because we don’t want women who are just entering this phase. And just starting to listen maybe to your podcast, to think that the pain and heartache are all gone. Online infidelity that they’re going to experience with this, besides the trauma, when we asked the women, how have you changed? Their answers floored us. They were not what we thought, but many of the women got really emotional during that question.
Spiritual Growth & Transformation
Heidi: When they started talking about their most intimate spiritual moments. Many of them came with a deeper faith, with strengthened relationships with God, who truly transformed them into new people. With a new identity, a new, better version of themselves. They felt divine assistance from God. Sometimes they were very suicidal, more than half talked about being suicidal without us ever asking any questions about it. And often in that moment, they felt God would bring miracles.
Some would have dreams, or could hear a voice or feel someone next to them. And that just gave them hope and kept them going. They had people come into their lives or resources come into their lives. I remember driving back from church late one night. It was dark, and the tears were pouring down my face. The only way I made it home was through the grace of God and his mighty protection.
I felt his presence on my right shoulder, and I remember pleading with God and praying, just take me away. So I don’t have to feel this pain anymore. And he told me it’s not time yet. It’s not time. And she said, God is there. He’s watching and powerful. So through these personal experiences, the women found meaning in their adversity and experience, at least sometimes of peace. And many, many of them gained personal relationships with God that they didn’t have before.
Previously, their experience with religion was more focused on the rituals of going to church or reading scriptures. Which many of them kept. However, they deconstructed their faith, and then built it up again.
Online Infidelity: Focusing More On God Than Their Religion
Heidi: They focused more on God than on the religion. And they use the religion as a scaffolding to help them come to God. They learned to trust God to seek help, strength and support.
Anne: What percentage of women chose to leave faith altogether from your study?
Heidi: Two and one said she was coming back. Several did leave religion for a time, but then came back. when they had figured out their own way to reconstruct it. Either by completely changing religions, congregations, places of worship, or by changing their own perspective of the role of their own religion. Every one of them found their husband was unreliable and dishonest, and they could not trust him because online infidelity.
And so in many cases, they started looking to God for truth, not to their husbands. They detached from their husbands and put God more in that central role, often. They found a deeper need for God. Tiffany talked about her experience with the nature of God completely changing. She said, I don’t even know who that God was that I believed in before. Because I have a whole new experience, which is stronger, brighter, bigger, and more abundant than ever.
I’ve learned that Christ’s capacity to know my individual, unique, deep feelings of loss occured. The hurt, pain, confusion, all the things, is so real. The last thing that the women talked about in this spiritual transformation was recognizing The spiritual, emotional and intellectual growth changed who they were.
Finding Worth & A Voice
Heidi: Several even talked about being grateful for the experiences they had. Not all the women, but many of them, said those experiences gave them newfound confidence in themselves. They could speak, which many of them had silenced themselves. And especially, they spoke often about it, about betrayal of any kind including online infidelity.
Zena said, the biggest thing I’ve learned is discovering myself. I truly didn’t know who I was, that I am a child of God. I have worth and I have a voice, and he wants me to use it. I’m not the same person I was before. I’m a new creation in God’s eyes. The women reported also through all that personal shame they had experienced. Working through that with the help of support groups, and learning to have more grace for themselves.
Because so many blamed themselves for the whole experience. That they weren’t good enough, that they weren’t adequate enough to keep their husband tied to them. They found purpose in their suffering and went on a mission. Many of them help other women navigate similar trials, which I think you have done. And I love that so much.
I just wanted to share one last quote from a woman named Cassie. She talked about taking complete responsibility for her spirituality, rather than relying on other people. She said, I had to learn to define faith, taking out all the middlemen and the structure. This is between me and God.
While I say I still believe in having a church structure. I still see the value, but what I thought it would do for me is not what it did for me. So I had to learn to take a lot more personal responsibility for that.
Finding Purpose In Suffering
Rebecca: I know many of our participants said they were grateful for the experience because of who they ended up becoming due to this life crisis. I would say, I’m not going to negate that that’s the experience. But suffering in and of itself doesn’t create that person. It’s important that these women understand that they have that outcome, because they built that. In the face of immense suffering, they chose to see purpose in their suffering.
They chose to find a way to take something awful, the worst thing that has ever happened to these women for most of them. And make something beautiful grow from that. And it’s important that the women understand that is something they did themselves. I just hate the thought of thinking that we have to suffer to become those people. But I think those women always had it in them. And that when they’re faced with a crisis, they were able to cultivate that in themselves.
Anne: I thought that for a while, and so many women do, it’s like I deserve this because I was such a terrible person. Somehow, before that, God wanted to give me this, because only such a terrible trial would transform such a bad person. Like me into the person he wanted me to be. That’s what I would hear. But you were a wonderful person. You are a wonderful person. You didn’t bring this suffering upon yourself. He cheated online and it isn’t your fault. Betrayal trauma from infidelity is so difficult.
Because you needed to be transformed. They’ll come out stronger, but not because they needed to and not because they were weak originally right?
Heidi: Right?
Anne: All of my insights are anecdotal from interviewing people for the last eight years. It’s awesome to have them in an actual published study.
Study 2: Impact of Online infidelity On Women
Anne: So you did another study on how a husband’s online infidelity use affects his wife’s sexuality. So can you talk about the themes that came up in that study?
Rebecca: So when we published this study, we only had a Christian population. It’s important to note that it is very traumatic to discover this. Often they’ve been led to believe their husband was not viewing it or that he did not have a problem with this, and this is very. I would say psychologically taxing on a woman. She has physiological symptoms, psychological symptoms.
Many times women talked about not being able to speak for a period, like literally becoming mute for a short period. They talked about dissociating, feeling nausea, insomnia, suicidal ideation, shame. Many women describe it as the floor falling out from underneath them. Feeling disbelief and shock, feeling frozen, really questioning what they were seeing. This is a trauma response, all signs point to a traumatic response in their body.
Anne: They’re not just discovering the it, cheating? They’re also discovering his lack of integrity. So they’re also discovering that he’s a liar at the same time. Online infidelity is just as damaging as a physical affair.
Rebecca: Yes, walking in and seeing the man in the midst of viewing something was very traumatic. Sometimes women find garbage bags and garbage bags of explicit content, right? So sometimes they’re also discovering the sheer volume of what has happened. And that would be overwhelming for a woman. Who did not have any inkling that her husband had behaviors outside the marriage.
Participant Testimony: Zena’s Story
Rebecca: I wanna share a quote from Zena, one of our participants. She said that on D-day, that changed everything in my life. It shattered my heart to a million pieces, changed my foundation of what I was standing on. I was in shock. Once you find out news like that, it takes you a while to connect your feelings to your mind.
I wasn’t able to process that, and rightly, how can you? It was very traumatic. But I didn’t react in rage. I didn’t understand. Why would you do such things? I was at a total loss. It was just too much dumped on me at one time to make any sense of that. I want to discuss that because I think it’s important to understand exactly what it’s like to discover, to then have the context for what happens to her.
For some women, women had intensified desire following discovery. And this increase in desire was described by having three primary motivations. One was to control the husband’s use. One was to protect the relationship. Or it was to self soothe. And so a lot of this emotional response of any of these motivations often resulted in the woman feeling a little confused.
So Tiffany described, even though I was so shattered, I felt this intense desire. Later I read, it’s typical. People will go one of two directions, either hyper or not at all. So I was like, let’s just be together all the time. Then we spent time in cycles based on how much I trusted him, until we got to a point where we mostly weren’t physical.
Seeking Safety Through Intimacy
Rebecca: So we noticed that some women would describe this as a similar experience of becoming hyper Now, if you are experiencing PTSD, you are in a high arousal state. An anxious state and arousal doesn’t necessarily discriminate. So to me, physiologically, it is not surprising that women who are experiencing PTSD and a symptom of arousal would also feel heightened at the same time.
Anne: I think it’s also a form of resistance, and when I say that, what I mean is they want safety and security. That is generally women’s primary motivation. They have faced this extremely dangerous situation, and the danger is coming from the person they’re supposed to rely on. So it’s confusing. But I just want to give women a lot of credit that they’re trying to be safe, and they think the safest thing to do is “meet their husband’s needs.” They are trying to stop the online infidelity.
Society has said maybe a therapist or maybe clergy has told her this. And she might be thinking, Oh, they were right, I didn’t give him enough. And that’s just the manipulation that these type of abusers tell their wives. To get them to have it with them when they’re lying, so you can see how this becomes more problematic.
Rebecca: I think that’s a great point. I think a lot of times when we maybe don’t have power in a situation. We would rather blame ourselves and think that we have control over an issue. Than acknowledge that maybe someone is abusing us. So in some ways it’s like, if maybe this has happened because I didn’t have it with him enough. If I have more I can control this.
Religious Influences and Ideas about online infidelity
Rebecca: We hope to fix it. Like you said, we hope to create the safety we’re looking for. Because it would be so uncomfortable to think that our partner is not safe. I think it’s much more difficult to make the leap to, this person is misusing power against me, and this has nothing to do with me. I think that’s a bigger psychological leap. So I appreciate Anne, you sharing that.
Because I was just going to share a quote from one of our participants. Samantha, that said, I want to make sure he gets what he needs from me in that department, so he doesn’t go looking again. And so you see that is a lot of women’s first reaction. if I give him enough, then he won’t need this other thing, Like we talked about in the study. On how women’s religiosity and spirituality were affected by their partner’s online infidelity and betrayal.
We also saw some of those beliefs being iterated by religious leaders. You need to have more with him. If you do this, he won’t have this problem. And so you can see that there’s a lot of context for her believing such a statement or behaving in such a way. It’s pretty much been programmed in her to think that she is the one that will fix this.
Anne: It’s also programmed in him. So many men in religious settings are told marriage is the solution to your problem. So if you’ve got a problem, you need to get married as soon as possible. And so that’s part of the abuse problem, she’s just a drug to him.
Shutdown & Asexuality
Anne: She’s not a person, so then she becomes the target of all of his angst. If he doesn’t feel “satisfied” because she was supposed to solve all of his problems.
Rebecca: Yes, so the next sub theme we had was being shut down. So some women talked about having a hyper response, and then other women were shut down. When they discovered they just completely closed off to their husbands, right? They couldn’t, in no way, be open to that. So many times following the discovery. They would say things like, get out, don’t touch me, don’t get near me.
Some women wondered if they were asexual right after the discovery, wondering if they’d ever been interested in it. Other women talked about realizing that the motivation for it seemed to always come from a sense of duty. And so we see women trying to understand maybe a lack of desire. After discovering that their husband had essentially a secret life.
Anne: Yeah, which is coercion.
Rebecca: Consent is fairly new. Unfortunately, the emphasis on consent is very new. We have a long history of women being obligated to men to please them. Even with a few lessons on consent, it doesn’t reverse the social ramifications for not abiding by those cultural scripts. So now we’re going to turn to our second theme, Heidi, do you want to take it away?
Heidi: Sure. This theme builds upon the idea of the women were struggling with the loss of their identity or trying to understand what was going on with their bodies.
Religious Lens On Body Image
Heidi: And it’s interesting to look at this perspective from a religious lens. Because there’s research that shows religiosity actually acts as a protective factor in the development of positive body image for many women. But in the case of betrayal, it did the opposite. So many women in our study indicated their sense of identity and self worth was completely shattered with the thought of their husband committing online infidelity and cheating.
Their thoughts and feelings surrounded comparing themselves to either what they saw in the explicit content. Or what they imagined might be in it. Or in the extramarital partners when that was the case. And experiencing shame about their own body. That comparison happened not only for the women comparing themselves to what they thought the women would look like or did look like.
But some men would actually say, this is Gwen making the statement. Her husband said, I see you as beautiful now, but compared to explicit content, of course not. And just hearing those words devastated her. She said, my world had turned upside down.
Anne: Mm hmm, well, and can you imagine the psychological abuse before that. She didn’t know about the it or affair partners, and he said, I’m not into it because I’m not as attracted to you as I used to be. And so her reality is that she’s just not attractive, and that’s what’s causing him to not want to be intimate with her. When she’s not aware that he’s masturbating to explicit content. And he can’t, because he’s already done it three times that day.
Online Infidelity & Self-Esteem
Anne: Even if they tried to be intimate, he couldn’t do it. That level of psychological abuse is extremely intense. Wrapping your head around, my husband was willing to let me think I’m some disgusting hag. So he had an excuse for why he couldn’t get it up. This is another reason why online infidelity is cheating.
Heidi: Right exactly, that huge hit it took on their body image. Faith was one of the women in our study, she was a middle aged woman. She initially thought her husband’s use was “because I’m old, I sag and I have stretch marks.” And Mary a young Latina woman, said that her struggles with her body image came because she knew she didn’t have a model size body.
We did have two women in our study who had plastic surgery. One was so sick for so long after that, and the other woman Anna said I don’t look at myself anymore. I don’t let myself take pictures and don’t think my body is attractive at all. I actually got a breast reduction at the beginning of last year for medical reasons. And I doubted myself so much, because basically he told me he would never look at me the same. And I was never going to be big enough anymore.
Ever since then, I feel like there’s just too many scars on my body. There’s too much now for anybody to ever want that anymore. Astra had weight loss surgery, and she said, I can’t blame his addiction for my weight problem. That was obviously something I have a problem with, but then I can’t blame his addiction for making me have the surgery. But I definitely did have the surgery, because I felt less than and unloved, abandoned and extremely undesirable.
Struggles With Self-Worth
Heidi: So this takes a huge hit, then also on their self esteem. Both struggled after the surgery in many ways. In Astra’s case, she ended up for eight years, having medical complications related to that decision. And then later on, she found out her husband had been looking at images of large women. She’s like, what? I don’t, I don’t get this.
Overall self esteem takes a hit, and they felt they were not enough. If they had been, they could control the situation. So some studies I’ve seen show that it takes a woman sometimes at least a couple of years to learn how to climax. One woman named Cassie’s husband was so upset about her inability to achieve orgasm within that first year. That he sent her to a therapist to figure out what was wrong with her and what was wrong with her body, because she wasn’t satisfying him.
Anne: She wasn’t satisfying him by not having her own orgasm?
Heidi: That’s what he was saying. yes. That’s how he described it. She said, I felt so deeply that rejection of I’m not, it was so directly tied to my performance and so directly tied to my worth. And my value as a person and in the marriage. So that rejection, again, you’re talking about layer upon layer of hurt that comes from this. The woman named Faith said, I have this past trauma. I wanted to call the shots, and I wanted to be in charge of my own body and say, it’s not okay with me.
I don’t want to do that right now, but he’d just get so mad. And I’m like, fine, just do whatever you want, which is very unhealthy. And I know that.
Marital Rape & Abuse
Heidi: So, her experience demonstrates that women wanted to control their own body. But it impacted it and their belief about themselves in such sad, really severe ways. Several later identified marital coercion.
Anne: I was thinking about an episode I did on wife rape. I talked about a church leader who was giving a church talk about how non-consensual immorality was wrong. And I thought there’s a word for that. It’s rape. I think many people worry about using the word rape because of reporting. For some reason, if you say rape, then it follows that you maybe have to report, and I’ve never talked to one woman remotely thinking about reporting.
They’re not going to report, and whether they should report is a totally different discussion. But it’s interesting to me that other people put the two together when victims don’t necessarily. Victims are like, now I know what I’m dealing with. But I think therapists or clergy worry about the reporting thing. And rather than being worried about reporting, focus on what happened.
It was rape. How would you feel the most safe in your body, in your home? What would you like to do? How can we help you? That discussion is one that I think every woman is entitled to have without anybody thinking. I don’t want to say that. Because then what if she goes and reports it?
Heidi: That is true. And in addition to that, I feel like for the religious leaders to, at the same time, be aware that it may not just be that one situation.
Online Infidelity Causes Complex Trauma
Heidi: It may be this complex trauma situation that’s digging up a host of things that often she never told anybody about. And so asking questions about that is important.
Anne: And what makes it complex? Just go one step further. What was the complexity caused by? People don’t quite lean into that. Because they’re like, I always wonder, why are they willing to go up to a certain thing. But they’re not willing to logically connect the next dot. They’re willing to connect the three dots, but there’s one more dot.
Rebecca: Yeah, one of the most insidious things about abuse is that it disconnects you from yourself in many ways. It’s hard to trust your gut, so often you don’t believe yourself. So when you get messages, don’t believe yourself on whether you know you’re ready for it. Always have it when your partner’s ready. There are many things happening that really divorce a woman from her own sense of knowing.
I’m going to talk about theme three, which is how women became disenfranchised. When a woman experiences her husband using. Many times her experience has been prescribed, undermined, or ignored. And her struggle to meet her needs. We’ve talked a little bit about this already, but the culture scripts.
For example, Samantha talked about how her husband told her. After we married, he said with authority, that guys need it at least once a day, and other similar things. I was surprised, but figured I’d better show up and meet his need. Because I didn’t want him to stray, especially since I knew he had a history of online infidelity.
Cultural & Racial Scripts
Rebecca: I thought it was part of my new job as a wife to keep him satisfied. So I think that encapsulates how many women feel that pressure. These women didn’t have space to think about what they may want. Many times that’s not even part of the discussion. We had another participant talk about racial scripts. She is a black woman, and she said, we had to be tough. We were black women.
We came from a long line of women who were abused by husbands and mistreated, cheated on. You had to be strong. You had to be tough, and you had to go out there and do what you got to do. And I want to highlight that black women in America have survived so much.
And in many ways, I’m sure that those messages passed on from mothers and grandmothers have enabled this population to survive. That in and of itself is something that we have to recognize that many times there was no other option but to survive.
Anne: Exactly, it was the best way they knew how to resist it.
Rebecca: Exactly, yes, when you have always been in a context where you can either die or survive, you will choose survival. And, again, I think these are the cultural scripts that you’re born into. And many times there aren’t other options that are outlined for you. So there’s just one more quote I want to share about how these cultural scripts encourage that.
Religious Teachings & Coercion
Rebecca: Anna grew up in a extremely conservative faith, and she talked about what her pastor told her. And she said, our pastor said, many times women go into marriage and not like anything. They are shocked with what happens, but you just need to deal with it. Okay, and you know, let your husband do what he needs to do always. Even if you don’t like it, you’ll end up liking it. You do what the guy wants.
Anne: What? You’ll end up liking it. That’s what people told her.
Rebecca: This is what her pastor told her.
Anne: Wow, wow.
Rebecca: So I think we don’t know what everybody’s religious education has been, right? But when you have a pastor saying that you may have men who are having regular intimacy.
Heidi: Her husband. He was very, very abusive.
Anne: Even if it’s just “regular,” if she doesn’t want to do it, it’s coercion. It doesn’t matter how “mild” it is. Online infidelity causes coertion.
Rebecca: Yes. But I think it’s important for religious leaders to remember that you don’t know who’s listening.
Anne: I mean, not only you don’t know who’s listening to that, that’s never right.
Rebecca: Yes.
Anne: Like ever, so it should never even be said, let alone thinking about who’s listening.
Rebecca: When I’m saying that, what I mean is I think some pastors can’t conceive of what might occur. And the truth is that, a statement like this really enables abusers.
Anne: For sure, but in every context, the only thing a pastor should say is, you are just as important as your husband. And when it comes to it, you have the right to do what you feel comfortable with, and he needs to respect that, or he’s raping you.
Online Infidelity causes a Lack Of Emotional Intimacy
Rebecca: Yeah, this was something that stood out to us, because it was about half of the women talked about their experience, lacking emotional intimacy. One woman described it. Throughout our marriage, there weren’t a lot of intimate emotional connections. So I felt lonely a lot, having it without emotional connection. I don’t think it is really generally super healthy. I think I actually use it to feel connected.
You see, these women are desperate to connect and hope to get emotional intimacy sex. Then never being able to feel the emotional intimacy that can accompany a healthy relationship. The next theme is related to this, and that is mourning loss. So one third of the women reported that due to their husband’s use, he would not or could not engage with her intimately. And obviously that takes a toll on her in terms of her self esteem, her body image.
Many of them had mentioned that frequent masturbation prevented him from connecting. And you know, one woman talked about how she got married when she was young, and she thought, I’m pretty cute, right? Why isn’t he able to perform? You know, this is happening at young ages, and I’m pretty confused about that.
I think it’s interesting, because sometimes the narrative is she’s not interested in it. That’s why he does this, his behavior reaction to hers. And you actually see a lot of women mourning the connection they thought they would have in marriage.
Heidi: Yes. And they could not believe that religious leaders didn’t tell them that that might have been an outcome, especially those who’d known about the it before.
Male-Centric Experiences
Heidi: They just understood, once we get married, it’ll all be okay. But they were like, wait a second. This is important information to know that there will be no intimate experience between us for years. Why was this information not shared?
Rebecca: So the next sub theme is about a male centric intimate experience. Many women talked about how often the marital intimacy experience focused on the husband’s preferences. And that societal norms had influenced this. Religious scripts, and explicit content, as the primary form of education for their partner. So it was focused on his pleasure instead of her pleasure. And in some cases they talked about, you know, reflecting back and seeing a grooming process.
Cassie shared in particular, clearly I could see looking back, but there was a progressive erosion of my own values. I did things in increasing desperation to fix things.
It’s important that all involved know. How important it is to create space for women to develop their own values, preferences, and not continue doing what the husband wants. So the last sub theme is abuse in marriage. So many participants recognize the different forms of abuse they had experienced in the marriage. Whether there was aggression, control, lack of consent, marital rape, it took a lot of time and processing to recognize what had happened.
One woman, Ruth, shared her husband used a lot of unwanted touch. Rape, you know, not rape in the way you think about him, like forcing himself on me. But like being asleep and him doing whatever he wanted. I learned a lot about abuse and what abuse looks like. So I think many women had no, like you’ve talked about, abuse education.
It’s Crucial That Women Tell Their Story
Rebecca: They didn’t know what happened, but they could process that later. One other participant shared about her experience. This is Anna, she shared, “He started getting verbally abusive and cussing and yelling at me. But people told me as a religious woman, you just need to do what your husband wants. I didn’t at the time, didn’t know that is considered rape.”
“Now that I’m out of that and everybody’s like, well, did you give consent? I was like, no, I said no many times. Then that’s not consensual.” That quote is powerful. It can seem clear to us on the outside as she retells this, but I think it’s important to recognize that many of these women have been in this marriage for a while. Women are in contexts where they haven’t clearly seen the abuse.
And so it is so crucial that they tell their story. Because if you assume that abuse couldn’t be there. Which I think some people just think watching this is such a normative behavior. There wouldn’t be abuse. But there is, and you don’t want to miss that.
Anne: Thank you so much, Rebecca and Heidi, for sharing your findings today.
Heidi: I appreciate the opportunity to let women know that research is starting to back up their experiences. And we appreciate what you’re doing at Betrayal Trauma Recovery to help the women as well.
Rebecca: We really appreciate you having us, Anne. Thank you so much.
Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse – What You Need To Know
May 27, 2025
If you’re wondering about psychological abuse vs emotional abuse, here’s what to know.
Emotional abuse is when someone manipulates your emotions to exploit you. He can use psychological abuse or emotional abuse to toy with your emotions to get what he wants. To find out if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz.
Psychological abuse is a deliberate attempt to manipulate, control, and diminish a person’s sense of reality. It can be impossible to detect, because it includes subtle and calculated tactics that undermine your mental and emotional stability.
The Link Between Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse
One very hurtful kind of emotional and mental abuse happens when some men hide harmful behaviors, like secretly watching inappropriate videos or having relationships outside of their marriage. Then, they use tricks and lies to keep these actions secret. For example, they might blame others, make excuses, or try to confuse the person they are hurting.
This kind of behavior is unfair and can make the people around them feel sad, scared, or unsure of what’s true. It’s important to understand these actions so we can help people who are being treated this way.
Grooming: Acting overly kind or loving to distract you from their deception or to lower your guard.
Gaslighting Through Deception: Insisting that behaviors you suspect (like inappropriate texts or suspicious accounts) are harmless or fabricated by your imagination.
Blame-Shifting: Making you feel responsible for their choices—whether it’s pornography use, emotional affairs, or other betrayals.
These behaviors are not only abusive but can leave you feeling emotionally unsafe and fragmented, as you try to reconcile the lies with the reality you live. To learn more about this type of abuse, specifically related to infidelity, listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.
Identifying Psychological Abuse And Emotional Abuse:
Healing from psychological abuse is almost exactly the same as healing from emotional abuse. Either way, you’ll need to heal from…
Lying and Deception: Repeated lies or withholding the truth to maintain power and secrecy. Your husband might make promises he has no intention of keeping, or lie to cover up deeper issues, like infidelity or pornography use.
Gaslighting: Making you question your own reality or memory. For example, he might say, “That never happened,” or twist your words to make you feel irrational.
Manipulation: Using grooming, love bombing, hoovering, or fear to gain control. He might send flowers or plan amazing dates. Or he might play the victim or focus on your weaknesses to deflect attention from his own harmful behavior.
Steps To Heal From Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse
Healing from psychological abuse is possible, here’s how to start your healing process:
1. Seek Emotional Safety
Your emotional safety is very important, and it should always come first. Taking care of yourself might mean stepping away from the situation, setting clear boundaries, or getting help from a trusted professional. It’s okay to make changes to protect yourself, even if it feels hard.
Always remember, you don’t need your husband’s permission to take steps toward feeling safe. You deserve to feel happy, respected, and secure in your life. Start by reaching out to someone you trust or a professional who can guide you. You are not alone, and there are people who want to help.
2. Build a Support Network
Surround yourself with people who validate your reality and support your healing. This could be trusted friends, family, or specialized support groups like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is designed specifically for women overcoming trauma from psychological abuse vs emotional abuse.
3. Educate Yourself on His TacticsTo Make Healing From Psychological Abuse Possible
Learning about harmful behaviors, like gaslighting, blaming others, and lying, can help you think more clearly and feel stronger. These actions are used to confuse or control someone, but understanding them is the first step to stopping their effects. When you know how these tactics work, it’s easier to recognize them and take steps to protect yourself. Knowledge gives you the power to break free from unfair or manipulative situations and start feeling more in control of your life.
4. It Has Nothing To Do With You (and Everything To Do with You)
Even though his psychological abuse and emotional abuse has nothing to do with you, it has everything to do with you because you’re the victim. You deserve to live a life free from manipulation, gaslighting, and lies.
Transcript: Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse
Anne: Many women ask. What is the difference between psychological abuse vs emotional abuse? So emotional abuse is when someone manipulates your emotions to exploit you. So they’re going for that emotional reaction. Psychological abuse is the deliberate attempt to manipulate and control your sense of reality. Healing from psychological abuse vs emotional abuse is pretty much the same thing. You’re still healing from the lying and deception, the gaslighting and manipulation.
Psychological abuse and emotional abuse are linked. Both happen when your husband has affairs or has a secret life, watching exploitative material or having relationships outside the marriage. He’s going to be psychologically and emotionally abusive. Grooming and blame shifting is all abuse. So on the podcast today, I have a member of our community. We’re going to call her Margaret. Something happened to her track, and I tried to fix it. And it distorted it a bit.
Her story is so good. If you’re having a hard time hearing it, you can read it here. So I want to welcome Margaret. Margaret, let’s start at the beginning of your story.
Margaret: In the beginning, I was young and married at 23. So it was kind of a quick courtship dating. I was involved in my church and met him at my work. It clicked, and he started going to church with me, he got baptized at my church. And then, you know, one thing led to another, we’re engaged, and then we’re getting married.
And looking back, I can see red flags now, because I’m much older and wiser. But at the time, you don’t think they’re red flags. You just think, Oh, that’s just a little thing. That’s not a sign of a bigger thing.
Disrespect & Lack Of Communication
Margaret: For example, this sounds so benign, later, it played out so much bigger in our marriage. We were sitting at a table and talking, and there was a newspaper nearby. I’m talking and he picks up the paper. He opens it and starts reading, and the paper is now in front of me. And I remember thinking, Oh, I wasn’t done talking, but you pretty much just cut me off. And I couldn’t even tell you what I was talking about, but that lack of respect, I would say for years, you don’t respect me.
You don’t hear me. I’m talking, it’s not processing with you or you’re not acknowledging me. I had dated a guy before him, and I still lived at home. We were coming home, and that other boyfriend was at the door of my house. And I told him, let’s not stop, let’s just keep going.
As we drove off, a few minutes passed, and he suddenly started banging on the steering wheel. Upset with me about that, because I didn’t want to stop. That I was ashamed of him or something. And it was very startling.
https://youtu.be/3sJNedeS4es
Anne: I wonder if he had hoped to just drop you off. Because he was maybe meeting up with another woman. And he had plans or something like that, when you didn’t go in. And he couldn’t drop you off. He was ticked. But of course he couldn’t tell you the truth.
Maybe he could use psychological abuse or emotional abuse to batter you to the point where you’re like, let’s just go home then, and then he could go about his merry way. And meet with whoever he was going to meet.
Silent Treatment & Gaslighting
Margaret: He just got quiet, and then was banging on the steering wheel and yelling at me.
Anne: Because nothing is what it seems with an abuser. It’s hard to figure out what’s going on, because you’re trying to resolve an issue and they are trying to meet up with their affair partner. They’re lying to you about needing to work so they can use exploitative material. And a lot of times you’ll ask questions, and they will literally never answer. They’ll just be silent.
Margaret: Like we would be having a discussion or disagreement, an argument. And he would be quiet, and I’d be like, what do you think? Why aren’t you saying anything? Oh, tell me, I have a whole party going on in my head. I just didn’t say it. So then I’d be like, that doesn’t help me. And that doesn’t help us.
Looking back, I would tell people like, trying to get anything resolved with him is so difficult because I could be talking about apples. We’re going back and forth, and he’s like, okay, we got the oranges all settled. And I’d be like, wait, what? What are we talking about?
Anne: That happened to me too. Part of that is that they’re just getting energy from the argument. So it’s not about resolving anything. I’m a good debater, so we would get to the point where it would be resolved. He would use psychological abuse and emotional abuse. Then he would start again on the exact opposite thing of what he just said, and I was like, what?
Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse: Energy From Chaos
Anne: You just argued for two hours for that. No, I didn’t. It was insane. I think they just gain so much energy from that chaos. It’s fun for them. They’re having a good time. Yeah.
Margaret: Oh, yeah, because I would repeat back to him word for word what he’d said to me, like, okay, so you’re saying X, Y, Z. No, no, that’s not what I said. I said, no, those are your exact words, but that’s not what I mean. And I’d be like, say what you mean. And it would just go on like that.
Like nothing ever felt like we accomplished anything, or he’d be like, I’ll try, try to do that. And I’m like, many years of trying and there’s no change. I thought, we’re just young and have a lot of growing to do. And we got married, and the behaviors continue. I just thought we’re just immature. It’s two people from two backgrounds coming together to make a marriage work.
And my childhood was one that my parents had a very unhealthy marriage. There was spousal abuse. So I knew what physical abuse looked like. I had seen or felt threatened, or had hands laid on me in that way. I would have known that.
I could never put my finger on it, something’s off. Something’s not right. I couldn’t identify either the psychological or emotional abuse. So maybe it’s because I don’t know what healthy marriage looks like. Okay, his parents are married. He’s an only child. His parents seem to have a good marriage, so they must have been good role models for him. So he must know, it must be me and growing in the church.
Struggles With Exploitative Content
Margaret: I got to pray more and learn how to communicate better and submit. To respect my husband more, and things will turn around, things will get better. I had first caught him using exploitative material when I found out I was pregnant with my first son. I had gone to bed, he didn’t come to bed, and I’m like, where is he? And we were in a three bedroom house at the time, and I went to one of the bedrooms and it was locked.
I thought, that’s odd, why is he locked in there? And when he opened the door, I could smell something, and I could see a diagonal view to the computer screen. It was exploitative material. I was shocked, stunned, and sick to my stomach. I don’t know what he told me. So I think he said he would come into bed soon, or something, and I just went to bed. The topic would come up off and on for years, because I would catch him. Back then, I didn’t know, and I didn’t understand.
And I grew up in that generation, 70s, 80s, where friends’ dads had stocks hidden under the bed, you know, of magazines. And so you’re trying, I’m trying to process, as a good Christian wife, as a woman, as a Christian family. I don’t think this is okay, but like how bad is this? And what do I do? And I did go to his mom and say, look, I think this is an issue, but what could she do?
How could I fix this? I did tell him I didn’t like it. This is wrong. I don’t feel good about this. And I think he just got better at using psychological abuse and emotional abuse to hide it.
Failed Counseling Attempts
Margaret: At one point, we did go to counseling at a church for marriage issues. And somehow, and he’s good at this, the focus became me. The person that was counseling us was not equipped for what was happening. They were not equipped for his use of emotional and psychological abuse to focus on me. The session became about me, my childhood, and my issues.
I just know that when it was over, I got in my car, pulled off to the side of the road, and called my sister. Excuse me, it still triggers me. I was so upset. I was bawling. And I said, I can never do that again. I can never go back to counseling. It was so traumatic. I was like, I would never return to another counselor.
Anne: Good for you.
Margaret: It was horrible. So that was early in the marriage. That was probably 10, 15 years in, and at this point I was beginning to question his fidelity. I would find condoms. And he would say, at the time, we had grown sons, like 20 and 19. He would say, Oh, I grabbed those from our son’s room, and they just ended up in my car. I know my sons, and I know they’re not just leaving them lying out. So what was he doing? And that wasn’t the first time I found them in his car.
I had found some early in our marriage, about four, five, or six years in, in a briefcase he had left in the garage. He worked for doctors, a large group of doctors. And it was around a lot of people, women, hospitals, that sort of thing.
Psychological vs Emotional Abuse: Lies In The Face Of Hard Evidence
Margaret: And I remember finding a briefcase in the garage, and it had a Viagra and condoms, and I was like, what is this? We aren’t using those things. Oh, he said a doctor, as a joke for his birthday, gave them to him. And as a young wife who’s just has a one year old, I’m thinking, what, would I think? You know, I want to believe him. And so I said, Oh, okay. And who am I going to ask, the doctor? No, it was just little things like that that you, I could never verify.
Anne: Blaming it on your kids, that is really, really wrong, super wrong. And they don’t have any problem with false witness, and I want to use that word false witness purposefully. They don’t have any problem bearing false witness, which is really alarming.
Margaret: I think he knew I would not contact my son and ask him. I think he knew that. And so if he knew that was a safe way to go. But that episode with the finding the condoms in the car, that’s after so many other issues. So for example, the marriage was very difficult. We were struggling. I found it out through my youngest son that he tracked me through my phone, because my son watched him watch the computer monitor. He could see where my car was going.
Later when I got home, my son very naively said, Hey, calm down, he knows where you go. I remember being like, what are you talking about?
Hidden Cameras & Stalking
Margaret: And I don’t remember the conversation with my ex. I don’t remember. I just remember thinking I have nothing to hide. I’m meeting my friend. I’m a mom to four. I homeschool. I don’t get out often. She and I would meet every three or four months to just have dinner. So I have nothing to hide, so I don’t know why you’re doing that. So there’s a long history of these things, spyware on my phone, hidden cameras in our bedroom.
Anne: Hidden cameras in your bedroom, do you know of trafficking that he posted online?
Margaret: I don’t know he did. He said it wasn’t a good camera.
Anne: So he would have trafficked you, but the footage wasn’t good enough, was his excuse?
Margaret: He would not speak. When I say he would just not speak, he wouldn’t speak. He would just look at me. I would just back down. He had a heart issue, almost died, life flight and everything. And when he survived, which, because the odds were against him, I thought, this is our second chance now, this is God’s opportunity. He’s going to turn this ship around, because we’ve been struggling, and he had a long recovery.
Like he didn’t trust me. He was stalking me. He accused me of things. Which I now know was him projecting. He has been having affairs. He has been having a lot of affairs and things at work. So, he almost dies. He’s out of work until he goes back to work, and they’re telling him he’s done. And still he’s using psychological abuse or emotional abuse to blame me.
Discovering The Dating Profile
Margaret: He always said it was because of this other minor issue at the job. He’d been with them for 20 years. I don’t believe that story anymore. I think he was having affairs at work, and I think it finally caught up with him. So I still did not know, I’m still believing what he tells me. And I’m like, hey, that’s okay. We’re going to be fine. God has brought us through this far, and we’ll be okay.
When my daughter was 17 and this friend of hers was on a dating app. My daughter comes to me at 10 o’clock at night with screenshots and says, Mom, my friend just sent me these. And it’s my husband’s face on a dating profile. And he has solicited pictures from my daughter’s friend. I don’t think he realized it was my daughter’s friend. And a friend saw his picture screenshot them and sent them to my daughter and said, Hey, this guy is DMing me. Is this your dad?
And she’s like, Mom, do you think somebody took his picture and is using his pictures? And when I read the words for the little bio, a little hook to get people to click on you. I heard his voice in those words. Like I could hear, I said, baby girl, that’s your dad. And it was about 10 o’clock, 10:30 at night, and I walked over to him. I’m like, you need to pack a bag, and you need to leave.
And when he saw what I was showing him with the screenshots, the look on his face, I knew that, yeah, he’s done this. He used psychological and emotional abuse to hide online dating.
Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse: Attempting Affair Recovery
Margaret: He said, but I don’t want to leave. I’m like, you don’t have a choice, or I’ll call the police. You need to leave. I’m going to call your mother. I’m going to call your father. You need to leave. That was in November 11th. I’ll never forget that. That night, he goes to her and says, I have to leave because your mother’s mad. He wasn’t saying I use psychological abuse and emotional abuse to hide my infidelity.
Anne: Yeah, duh, she’s mad,
Margaret: She was more on the ball than I was. I have to say, I have to give her credit. She was much wiser at that point to what was going on than I was. She was upset with me when I finally took him back eight months later. It made our, she and I had a very difficult relationship. And I realized now that that was the trigger for her and I not getting along at that point. Because she saw what I couldn’t see. So he moved home. We’re working on our marriage.
Margaret: We do Affair Recovery, which is based out of Austin, Texas. It’s an emergency, weekend.
Anne: For couples, someone’s had an affair.
Margaret: Yes.
Anne: Did they mention abuse at all?
Margaret: No, never. It’s always assumed, okay, at some point you’ll have to have sex.
Anne: You’re going to have to have it, which is coercion, that’s coercion right there.
Margaret: You’re a good Christian wife and you need to submit.
Anne: They really don’t know anything about rape, do they?
Margaret: No! Absolutely, I was like, okay, telling my kids, we’ve been married 29 years. He says he still wants to be married. We can make this work. I’m thinking we’re working on having a better marriage.
Pressure & Self-Betrayal
Margaret: It’s still always difficult. There are just all these issues. It was an issue, because he moved home and wanted me to start having it right away. I didn’t feel good about that. But I said, okay, and I can look back and see I betrayed myself. He had his own personal counselor. I had my own personal counselor. Then we have the marriage counselor.
It seemed like we could never get any resolution, we could never get anywhere. And we started the counseling sessions, and then there’s holidays. So there are these gaps in the counseling, we’re going in January, February, March, and we’re going, but I remember him telling our counselor, what do I need to do?
Tell me so I can go through the checklist. At one point, he banged his hand on the couch and said, well, I didn’t even do anything. I should have done something then. The psychological and emotional abuse were continuing in lies to the counselor.
Anne: What? Wait. So he was like, wait, I didn’t even do anything. I should have. Wow, okay, he was lying in that moment anyway.
Margaret: When I look back and say everything out loud. When I finally sat down with like my mother. I had never told my mother everything. Early in my marriage, my mother-in-law told me, don’t talk bad about him to your family, because then they won’t like him. And thinking, well, yeah, you know, I probably shouldn’t.
So I was careful about what I told to who. I would never tell my best friend, even everything, because if she knew everything, it probably would sound bad. And so I was careful about what I shared. So I went to my mother-in-law and told her, and she said, don’t be telling people.
Discovering Infidelity
Margaret: I saw a message on his phone before all the dating apps. It was a message on his phone about meeting someone at ten thirty at night after their daughter went to sleep. And when I confronted him, he said, oh, it was for a massage. A friend of his recommended her, and he wanted one late at night. But he told me he never went. Yeah, I believed that. And it wasn’t until years later, when we’re trying to work through the marriage issues, that came up again.
And this time when he told the story, he did go, and I said, wait, you said you didn’t go. He goes, no, I always told you I went up. I said, no, you didn’t. I was a shell of myself by the time I left. Fast forward a year, I felt like things were just not good. I felt like things were bad. I was experiencing severe psychological abuse and emotional abuse.I went to him. Then I said, if you’re not happy and don’t want to be married to me, that’s okay. I understand. I love you enough to say, okay, we can separate and divorce.
That’s fine. And he said, no, I want to be married. In February, I had a gut feeling. And February 6th is when things finally came to a head. I knew he was cheating again. I saw things on his phone. He chased me around the house because I had the phone and he wanted it back.
And he was frantically trying to delete things off the phone while talking to me. He chased me outside as I tried to go through his truck, and I was burned out a few times.
Social Media & Realizations
Margaret: Conveniently the next day, he deleted all the Ring doorbell video. So I had no proof, yeah.
Anne: So he knew what he was doing.
Margaret: You know, he was caught. I had found condoms in the car again. So, thank social media. I could not even tell you how I came across you, and Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It started showing up. And I started coming across terms like DARVO, gaslighting, and word salad. And I thought, this is in my marriage. This explains everything on Betrayal Trauma Recovery Instagram, yeah.
Anne: So you’re first introduced to these ideas, that maybe it’s abuse. You learned the difference between psychological abuse vs emotional abuse. Most women are shocked. Like, how did I not know? And then also totally not shocked simultaneously. It’s a relief. Because it’s like I knew something was wrong, and this is it. Can you talk me through your thought process?
Margaret: At first I was like, okay, I know what physical abuse is. You know, everybody has a clear understanding of that. So then when the whole concept of, no, this is psychological abuse or emotional abuse. I had to listen and re-listen to podcasts and go, okay, him having affairs and then coming home. T
And I’m not having informed consent to what’s happening to my body, and bringing home risks to my health. Because of his behavior. It was so painful to realize that we’d been married that long. The level of manipulation, at the end, I would just sit and he would talk, and I would just sit and hold my head, okay, okay.
Emotional & Physical Safety
Anne: Pretty violent episodes, and maybe it will help you, maybe not, reframe it to think that that is the definition of survivor right there, abuse survivor. That you survived psychological abuse and emotional abuse. And you were resisting, and that was all you could do at that time because of how scary your situation was.
Margaret: I think deep down in my core, I knew, I think that’s why physically and intimately I couldn’t respond anymore. There was a dread, and I slept on the edge of the bed with my back to him. And I would wake up in the morning in the same position wondering how did I not fall off the bed? You know, because I think I knew I wasn’t emotionally safe with him.
He has punched holes in doors. He has yelled, not laid hands on me. But there’s that fear, especially because I carried that fear and trauma from my childhood. So like, we want to avoid triggering any of that. So you’d be a good wife, and you don’t trigger that. And being the Christian woman, I was like, I wanted my marriage to work. I’ve got four kids and I’ve been homeschooling them.
And I always said divorce would stop with me because my parents were divorced. Like, I had that other family member’s divorce, and I didn’t want that for my family. I wanted the marriage to work. And so he says he’s sorry, he says he wants to be married, okay. But when you’re being manipulated and lied to, I forgive myself because I didn’t know.
Seeking Legal Help
Margaret: I didn’t know the extent and what I was seeing, it’s so hard. But I was willing to believe him to make the marriage work.
Anne: It was the safest option at the time, because women are really smart.
Margaret: Yeah, I’ve got kids. I’m doing homeschool. And how do I navigate going back to work? I’ve been dependent. I just stayed home for 27 years. And I finally texted a friend of mine, my good friend for 20 years. I called her, I said, well, I’m pretty sure we’re done. I can’t do this anymore. And I told her what had happened, and she started asking her friends very covertly, very secretly.
We need a lawyer. I need a lawyer for my friend. I had planned a trip that following weekend to visit El Paso to see my daughter. She had by this point married and lived in El Paso, and I flew out to see her. And that was a godsend to be away that first weekend. So I could process what was happening. To get distance from the psychological andd emotional abuse. They got me a burner phone, because I was concerned he was spying on my phone.
And I found out months later, my son came to me and said, Mom, one day when I got in dad’s car, I heard your voice coming through the speakers. Dad did something quick and shut it off. He was definitely reading my texts, my emails, listening to my phone calls. So when you realize the level that he has been going through to keep track of you.
Psychological And Emotional Abuse: Using Meditation To Heal
Margaret: And I told my friends, somebody asked me, are you afraid for your life? I said, I don’t think so, but I need you to know that God forbid, I’m in an accident and in the hospital. Because I do not want him to have power of attorney over me. I don’t want him to have medical power over me. I’m letting everybody know. And I am not suicidal, and I would not run away because I have four kids, even though they’re adult kids.
I was like, I would never leave them. So I just needed people to know that, because at this point you just don’t know what they’re capable of. And he knew he was going to take a loss financially, because in the state I’m in, we get half, although he cheated me out of half of the home. Which is another story, but yeah, he was not going to be happy about that. We went to mediation, and signed paperwork, and then the final papers were January of this year.
It was a heavy grief. It was really hard in the beginning to say the word abuse. I think because in society, we just think of physical abuse as abuse. If it’s psychological abuse vs emotional abuse, or mental, like that’s not really abuse, right? Because you’re okay.
Anne: Do you feel okay?
Margaret: I didn’t, I wasn’t. I still have to return to my faith, because there are the marriage advice books and Christian marriage advice books. Reading all those things, I have good Christian friends who love me. But who would tell me things like marriage is hard, divorce is hard, choose your hard.
Support & Community
Margaret: And that I need. I’m like, good grief, if your marriage is that hard, choose divorce, that is not heart free. And then the whole God hates divorce sentiment. Which we now know and is becoming more widely talked about. That’s taken out of context, you know, that scripture is taking out of context, and that’s not accurate. And so now I have all those tools. Now I know, that this was not just a hard marriage.
It was an abusive marriage. Where one person was a master manipulator, a pathological liar, I survived. The last words I told him, he said, Oh, you’re always the victim. And I said, no, I’m an overcomer. I stand on that. I have been overcoming, I am overcoming, and yet it was abuse for 31 years. And so that’s going to take time, and I may always have those triggers. I’ve since gone back to that counselor, because I wanted to let her know.
And once she heard all the pieces, she goes, there was no way this was going to work. Because when she talked to his counselor, his counselor said a whole different story. He told the counselor different scenarios of what was going on, so my ex was going to his counselor and mine. And he would go to my mother-in-law and lie about me. He called my best friend and tried to talk to her and tell her stories about me. The psychological abuse and emotional abuse were so crazy.
He called my brother-in-law to set me up. He went to our pastor. The pieces started unfolding, and it was so mind blowing. So hard to believe.
Escalation & More Lies
Margaret: That the person supposed to have my back and do life with me would go to this extent. He was out for himself and protecting his image. Everybody was shocked. And then they think, is it because he almost died? Maybe he’s having this crisis, and I was like, no, this has gone on for years, it just escalated.
Anne: It’s interesting that it escalated after his near death experience. Because so many women, me included, are praying for something to wake him up. We think maybe a car accident would help him understand that he is psychologically and emotionally abusive, like my ex got hit by a car. I’ve actually never told that story, and I will soon, on the podcast. He didn’t die, but I did think surely this will help him understand. And even that didn’t help.
And I think one of the reasons is because they know. And they manipulate us to think they don’t understand what they’re doing. Or maybe they need to be educated, or maybe communication will improve it, but they know what is going on and know it the whole time. And so to them, this is no wake up call, because knowing has never helped them decide to change, because they’ve known every step of the way.
Margaret: Right, I don’t know if they just lied to themselves, if they’re in denial. He, even now, has never had an open, honest conversation with any of my kids about the divorce and the lie behind it, not once. One of my older sons went to him, and my son came back and said, dad said he’d put a pin in it and we’d get back to it, which never happened.
Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse: So Many Lies
Margaret: My son tried to talk to my mother-in-law, and she was, no, no, you just don’t understand. He told my daughter in an email that he just has communication issues. And that was the root of everything. And if I had been better, as a wife, been a better listener, loved him, compassionate, it would have worked out. I don’t know how they sleep. I don’t know how they look at themselves in the mirror.
Anne: Yeah, I don’t either. I think that all that is just a lie too. And people, me included, have a hard time being like, wow, they do lie about everything. Because if they said the truth, I choose to do this, they’ve never wanted to say it in the past. Why would they start now to tell the truth? Habitual psychological abuse and emotional abuse is part of their character.
Margaret: When it’s been going on for so long, the lies now, or there’s so much, so many of them. Like I said, I caught him in that one lie. He couldn’t even keep the facts straight anymore. There’s so much of it. I have such a deep desire to pay it forward for other women who may hear themselves in my story. Hopefully, they’re earlier in their marriages, and they don’t stay as long. If you feel something’s off, go with your gut. For so many years, I’ve ignored my gut instincts.
And took him in his word, go with your gut. If something feels off, it’s probably off. And be there for other women. I now am in a full-time job. And there are two women where I work that I can encourage now, because they’re going through their own, struggles, divorces, and trauma from their own marriages.
Wanting To Help Other Women
Margaret: I know God has put me where I’m supposed to be with these women. And that has been my prayer. If I can help just one woman out there, give her the courage to stand up and say, Nope, I’m done. I’m done, and walk away. That makes me feel better. And I know it’s worth something. It couldn’t have all been for nothing.
I wanted a happy home, but it wasn’t for lack of trying. I know I did my best with what I was being told. And I can hold my head up high. The marriage was killing me, I couldn’t stay.
Anne: Thank you so much for being brave and sharing your story. It will help other women. Just hearing other women’s stories, even without my enlightening commentary, if I can be sarcastic, is so helpful.
Margaret: Yes.
Anne: When you hear someone else say it, it sounds awful, because it is awful. Going through psychological and emotional abuse is terrible. Then realizing this is exactly what’s happening to me. And it’s just as awful. And I am just as important as the woman sharing this story.
Margaret: Right, because you feel like good grief, you know, it’s embarrassing. But I was in a fog. I wanted to believe him. I wanted the marriage to work, and I have four kids. Yeah, and I’m being told as a Christian woman. That if you pray enough, submit enough, be the good wife, do all the things, he’ll come around, it’ll work.
Anne: Having been through it.
Margaret: Yeah.
Anne: There’s no way to describe it to people who haven’t. But there are good people who haven’t been through it. They still probably can’t understand it on the level that women who have been through it can.
Hope For The Future
Margaret: I agree. My mother had her own abusive situation, and I didn’t appreciate that. Until now, I’ve gone through my own. I knew it was bad. And I would never say it wasn’t traumatic for her. But it’s not until you go through your own trauma with a spouse. That you go, oh, this is why she didn’t want to be around him at the holidays. I was like, hey, this makes sense.
Margaret: Yeah, I appreciate women going through the divorce process. And how difficult it is with the court systems. And lawyers, that’s a hard path to navigate. I attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions, early on in the whole process. And loved it, I need community. I would go to Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions a couple of times a week which was amazing. I tell people, you need to do this.
If you can’t afford anything else, you can afford this, especially with a marriage with betrayal and psychological and emotional abuse. I know that from last year when I started my job to this year, my BTR coach, she’s like, you’re a different person. I was very beat down, and this year I carry myself a little better, a little stronger. I’m excited for the future. I know it’s going to be good.
Anne: It will be. You’re awesome.
Margaret: Thank you.
Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband’s Phone? – Jenna’s Experience
May 20, 2025
If you suspect your husband is having an affair, is it wrong to check your husband’s phone? Does access to your husband’s phone ensure he’ll stay faithful? Jenn shares 3 reasons why checking his devices didn’t stop her husband from cheating.
Transcript: Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband’s Phone?
Anne: A member of our community we’re going to call her, Jenna is on today’s episode. She’s been on the podcast before, and today she’s going to tell her story. We’re talking about. Is it wrong to check your husband’s phone? Welcome Jenna. Why don’t you just go ahead and start.
Jenna: I discovered my husband’s addiction shortly after we were married and I was obviously devastated and completely traumatized. He had withheld things from me and lied to me. That created a distrust in our relationship. And caused me to question everything he had ever told me that I had ever experienced with him. So I just, from the beginning, could not stop looking through his computer, through his phone, my husband was constantly on his phone.
Really any device or anything that I could verify or find information. I would search into the late hours of the night and into the morning. That was just a response to my trauma. And I’ve learned since then that it’s not useful, has not helped me, and it only harmed me and caused me further pain.
Anne: I wanna contrast your story with the story of many women I’ve spoken with. Who have said I had this impression that I needed to check his phone. And I checked it and realized he was having an affair. Or I had this impression that I needed to look at his computer, and I looked at the computer and saw this. Yeah, women can really benefit from safety seeking behavior, right? So today I want to cover why we call this safety seeking behaviors.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Perspective On Safety
Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe women resist abuse. They resist it from the very first second they experience it. They might not know they’re experiencing it, and they might not know that what they’re doing is resisting it. But it is an effort to get to safety. And at BTR, whatever you do to get to safety is healthy. And we’ve also found that some safety seeking or some types of resistance are more effective than others. So we’re going to talk about that today.
Some addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists or support groups, will try to label wanting to check his phone as acting out. Or that you’re codependent. And that you are trying to find the truth is unhealthy. Which is just more gaslighting. You’re not codependent, you are seeking safety.
https://youtu.be/R3vXhz8MN2U
Jenna: Yes, for me, looking through his computer and phone, it was the only tool I had at the time. I didn’t have any recovery resources. And I was trying my hardest to, like you said, establish safety with the little knowledge I had. And that was the only thing I knew how to do. But they did not provide me with the safety I desperately sought. For me, there were three reasons that searching my husband’s computer was not helpful.
Number one, it didn’t solve the problem. Number two, it made me feel crazy, and I lost trust in my own intuition and self. And number three, it kept the focus on him. And prevented me from creating and establishing safety for myself.
Anne: So let’s talk about that first reason for you. Why did it not solve the problem?
Ineffectiveness Of Searching Devices
Jenna: It did not solve the problem, even if I found evidence of something while checking his phone and confronted him about it. He would deny it and my husband was gaslighting me. That was not motivation for him to change. It would just be me showing him these things, or I couldn’t find anything. And then because I was looking for cold, hard evidence to convince him. And explain to him and show him the reasons why he needs to get help and to change.
Instead of looking to myself and saying, what do I need to feel safe? I wasn’t listening to my own intuition.
Anne: I can see why this wouldn’t solve the problem, because it’s like talking to a two year old.
Jenna: Yes.
Anne: Okay, please don’t throw the food on the floor. And they do not say to you, Oh, you are right. I was throwing the food on the floor. That is inappropriate. I am so sorry. I will never do that again.
Jenna: Exactly.
Anne: Two or three year olds don’t say that. The way they react is not in a reasonable, mature fashion.
Jenna: Right.
Anne: Even when you presented him with evidence. It’s not like he said, Oh, wow, here’s the evidence. Facts are facts, now I will stop lying.
Jenna: Right, it’s not logical. You can’t reason with addict mode.
Anne: Because of that, that probably is exactly why you have the second reason, which is you started to feel crazy.
Jenna: Yes, for a year and a half, I searched my husband’s phone and computer, and tracked him on his devices. Trying to find something, because my gut kept telling me something is off.
Checking Your Husband’s Phone: Emotional Turmoil & Intuition
Jenna: I just continually had this feeling of something is not right. He’s not telling me the full truth about something. I could not shake this feeling, so I would confront him. And say, hey, I have this feeling that something is off and you’re withholding information from me. And he would say no, everything’s fine. I would just think okay, but why am I having this feeling?
So instead of trusting myself and making boundaries for safety, I would search my husbands phone and computer. Nintey-nine percent of the time I found nothing. That just made me feel crazy, because I had this conflicting feeling with the lack of evidence. That I was not finding on the phone or on whatever device. It was a very confusing and crazy feeling to look for something that you feel like should be there, and it’s not.
Anne: At the time, I assume his behaviors were emotionally unsafe.
Jenna: Correct, they were unsafe.
Anne: So were you thinking, okay, there’s got to be a reason why his behaviors are emotionally unsafe? Did you even have words for that at the time?
Jenna: I would have these flags come up in my mind, saying like, I don’t feel like he should be doing this or saying this or acting this way or treating me this way.
That’s when I would confront him. The evidence I was ignoring at the time was the emotional abuse and irresponsible behaviors. I don’t think I would have labeled it emotional abuse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz. I was so early in my healing process that I barely learned about boundaries.
The Living Free Workshop
Jenna: I knew it was not right, but I just made excuses. I bargained and tried to rationalize it and make sense of it. But yes, it was emotional abuse that I’m not sure I was aware of at the time.
Anne: Absolutely, that’s why I created the Living Free Workshop. So women can discover what is actually going on. Know his true character, and then learn how to set effective boundaries. That don’t require his cooperation. You can protect yourself without him having to do anything. That takes us to your reason number three. You were searching his phone and computer to resist abuse.
Checking your husband’s phone actually kept you from doing things that would establish your safety. Like some of those strategies that we teach in the Living Free Workshop.
Jenna: Yes, when I was obsessed with looking through his phone and search history on his computer and trying to find evidence. I spent so much emotional energy on that. I was neglecting myself and not doing the things that would provide real lasting safety for myself.
Anne: Yeah, I think it’s a common stage that all victims go through. Plus we’re given the wrong information by therapists. The therapist tells us that to set a boundary, we need to say to our husband out loud. If you do this, then I’ll do this. So, I mean, before I even got married, I told my ex, if you look at pornography, I will divorce you. That was my “boundary,” but then I married him and he looked at it. Then I didn’t want to divorce him.
Setting Boundaries For Safety
Anne: So what was I supposed to do? It was confusing. And that way of “setting boundaries” didn’t help me be safe at all. In the case of searching for things on their phone and computer. Many women say their boundary is that they have access to his phone or computer. In your case, you’re saying it’s not wrong to check his phone, it’s that it didn’t help you get to safety. Because you still felt uneasy, and it didn’t stop him from harming you.
In the Living Free Workshop, women learn what a boundary is. It’s something that actually protects you. And something you do without talking to him at all.
Jenna: Yes, as I learned about boundaries, what that meant, and what a healthy boundary was. I just played around with it a little bit. I didn’t know how to implement a healthy boundary completely. So I would try, and I had this little glimpse of feeling safe and empowered. I felt like, oh, maybe this is what safety is. And maybe I don’t need to search these things. And so I would start to make some boundaries, and I would break my own boundaries.
Over time, as I began to create healthy boundaries consistently, I began to experience real safety. I could feel the difference. And when I look back, I don’t know how I made it through that time of chaos and dysfunction. The moment when I created firm, healthy boundaries, I felt that peace and that assurance and that safety.
Checking My Husband’s Phone VS. Setting Boundaries
Jenna: It was just a turning point for me and my recovery. The first boundary I remember setting and holding. That provided safety for me, I actually didn’t sleep in the bed with him because I did not feel safe. Not because he was looking at exploitative content, I couldn’t prove it, but because he wasn’t emotionally safe for me. And that was enough for me to not sleep in the bed with him.
I started to focus on what I needed to feel safe. It wasn’t checking his phone? Part of that for me was having a husband who would be honest with me. I did find out he had lied about something. I knew at that moment that I needed to hold the boundary. And I did, and I asked him to move out. And that created the most safety that I had felt during our marriage. I asked him to move out and my home became a safe haven for me. I can say that with confidence, yeah.
Anne: When I started doing that, I could feel it too. For me, I never set a boundary before the judge and police set the boundary for me.
Jenna: Right.
Anne: It was a God given boundary of no contact when he was arrested. And the judge said, you have a no contact boundary. I could have broken it, but I was like, Whoa, this is what I need to do. And I felt safe for the first time. It was amazing. Just that peace that came that I could go home, and I could breathe having that safe space.
Practical Boundary Setting
Anne: The key to setting boundaries is safety. How can I feel safe? Like I teach in the Living Free Workshop. You don’t have to tell the person what your boundary is. You don’t have to decide your boundary beforehand. Because you can’t anticipate all the things he’s going to do. You don’t know, for example, here’s a metaphor that he’s going to throw a shoe at you. So you couldn’t beforehand say, if you throw a shoe at me.
I will throw your shoe in the garbage. Instead, you can respond when he harms you. And without saying a word to him, think to yourself. I didn’t realize he would use shoes as weapons. So I’m going to take all the shoes in the house and give them to Goodwill. You don’t have to say a word to him about it. You don’t have to get his permission. And you don’t need his cooperation. And then no more shoes will be in the house.
So he’ll never throw a shoe at you again. I mean, that’s a metaphor, but I love Living Free. Because it’s about what you need to feel safe. And you can make the best decisions for you and actually take action to protect yourself.
Jenna: Absolutely, I didn’t even understand the concept of boundaries for so long. I needed someone to guide me and show me what a healthy boundary looked like. Because there’s no way I would have learned to do that on my own. I mean, I was lost completely in the beginning. So I needed to see examples of boundaries.
Advice For Listeners
Jenna: I needed to see examples of women making and holding boundaries. I needed someone to listen to me, talk through boundaries, and contemplate whether they were healthy boundaries that provided safety.
Anne: Exactly, how can we move toward actual safety? Rather than spinning our wheels, trying to get safety, but not getting anywhere, right? For our listeners, who are now wondering if it’s wrong to check your husband’s phone? And obsessively checking their husband’s phones and computers. What advice would you have for them?
Jenna: In my experience, searching through my husband’s devices and tracking where he is, and constantly being on alert. Never brought me real safety and stabilization in my life. The only thing that created stability for me was learning about boundaries. What they look like and what they don’t look like. And then interacting with other women in similar situations, but maybe are a few steps ahead of me.
You helped me begin creating safety for myself, instead of searching continually through my husband’s computer.
Anne: Well, I’m so glad. The Living Free strategies are incredible, especially the parts about setting healthy boundaries. It also includes how to determine your husband’s true character, thought strategies, communication strategies. Everything a woman needs to know when she has that gut feeling that something’s wrong is in The Living Free Workshop.
Stages of Anger After Infidelity – How Anger Protects You
May 13, 2025
I went through so many stages of anger after infidelity. Here’s what I learned over the years.
I realized I wasn’t just healing from his infidelity—I was also recovering from years of emotional hurt. If this sounds like you, take this free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’ve been through emotional abuse too.
The 5 Stages of Anger After Infidelity
Healing from infidelity means facing a whirlwind of emotions. One emotion often takes center stage is raw and overwhelming. If you’ve been betrayed by your husband’s infidelity, the anger you feel is not only normal—it’s a crucial part of your healing process.
1. Anger at the Betrayal Itself
The first wave often hits when you discover the infidelity. It’s anger directed at the lies, deceit, and complete loss of trust. This stage is about recognizing the deep sense of betrayal and questioning how someone you loved could hurt you so profoundly.
“How could he do this to me?”
“Does he even care about the pain he’s caused?”
It’s healthy to feel this anger fully. Talking to a trusted friend or even attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session can help you process these emotions safely.
2. Anger at the Consequences
Whether it’s emotional wounds, financial stress, or strained relationships, it’s normal to feel angry about the impact of his actions.
“Why am I the one picking up the pieces?”
“Now I have to heal because of his choices.”
It’s so hard to have to deal with all the hurt and harm he has caused. You’re not alone. So many other women have faced similar challenges, including me. Even so, I’m so so sorry that you’re going through this. You don’t deserve it.
3. Anger at the Loss
Betrayal doesn’t just hurt—it also takes things away. You’ll likely grieve the marriage you thought you had, the version of your husband you believed in, or the future you planned together. This grief often takes the form of anger.
“I didn’t deserve to lose everything I’ve worked for.”
“It’s not fair that my whole world has changed because of his betrayal.”
It’s healthy to mourn these losses. And to have a community that can mourn with you, like The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community.
4. Anger at Yourself
Many women feel frustrated with themselves. You might be angry for trusting him, for not seeing the signs sooner, or for still struggling to heal.
“Why didn’t I see through his lies?”
“Why do I feel so stuck?”
It’s crucial to treat yourself with compassion during this stage. His betrayal was not your fault. Listening to women share their stories on The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast can help remind you that you’re not alone—or to blame.
5. Reclaiming Anger as Strength
The final stage is when you realize that your anger can become a source of power. It can motivate you learn strategies to protect yourself.
As I talk with victims of infidelity on a daily basis, I am so angry. And how could I not be? It’s important to know you’re not alone in your anger at his infidelity. Every emotion you’re feeling—sorrow, devastation, numbness, or fury—is valid. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re here to walk with you every step of the way.
Transcript: Stages of Anger After Infidelity
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.
My children are with my ex for right now, and I’ve been alone and working a lot. I’ve been really busy. I actually think I might go shop for new clothes today which I haven’t done in years–which is making me a bit nervous! At the same time, I’m thinking, “My goodness! I might get a new shirt today!” This is exciting!!
While my children are gone, my mom’s here helping me. I have amazing parents. They are supportive emotionally and financially. I really need to put a shout out to them, especially my mom who is my biggest fan. There is no way I could do this without her support—emotionally and physically, for she tends my kids. She brings dinner. My mom is a carpenter. She can do electrical work. She fixes my toilets. So she came down and helped me assemble a desk and helped put my new office together.
Gratitude for Family
I got exhausted but my mom who is 65 came over and stood on stools to drill holes in the wall for my bookcases so they don’t fall over on my kids. I was getting exhausted and she powered through! My mom can do anything! I am so grateful for her and admire her so much. Where my ex-husband used to be my partner in projects, now I still have a partner and it’s my mom.
And so I can still work on my projects and do the things I love and still have help. She is an angel and I am so grateful for her. My life is infinitely better because of her. I am also grateful for my dad and their financial assistance. I’m really, really blessed to have amazing parents.
I want to talk about some of things I loved about my ex that I have been thinking about lately. I love projects, I love improving things. I’ve got a really nice home in a nice area, in a suburb north of Salt Lake City, Utah. It’s very safe and convenient. My ex and I bought the home together.
He’s a mechanical engineer and also a patent attorney. He’s really, really smart with numbers and with problem solving with mechanical situations. I really appreciated that about him. He built a chicken coop that could withstand the apocalypse! I remember watching him work in the yard and seeing how strong he was. He could pick up a railroad tie and drag it around. I always thought he was handsome when he was out working in the yard and he had dirt all over his face.
Struggling with Anger At Infidelity and Contradictions in Faith
We bought a home together, before we got married (which I don’t recommend). There were tons of rocks. We gathered them up and put them in buckets. He would put them in the bottom of the garbage can since it could only handle being about 1/3 full so it wouldn’t break.
The garbage truck would come and dump it and my ex would put more rocks in and take the can to the other side of the street. This was my idea but he did it willingly. When he was not being abusive he was so willing to help me. He worked from home the last three years of our marriage. I could come home from the grocery store and he would come and help me bring the groceries in.
He loved church which is difficult for me now because we attended together. We attended the temple and he is still attending. He hasn’t repented. There is a disconnect there. I like that he does love the Church. I just can’t figure out how come he can’t understand the commandments or obey them. It is hard to have so much anger at his infidelity and the mismatch of values and actions. It’s hard to understand that this is how narcissists groom victims. He has the appearance of really, truly loving the Church which I appreciated about him.
https://youtu.be/6Sl9KCv6mYg
When His Actions Contradict His Stated Values
He liked to cook which I also appreciated about him. He wasn’t a good cook but he did it and he liked it so that was cool. And he was willing to do whatever I wanted to do. Whatever movie I wanted to watch, wherever I wanted to go, he was willing to go with me. He never really planned anything which now I wonder if he just wasn’t very interested. I did a lot of brain work planning things and he was willing to go.
He didn’t play video games. He didn’t watch sports. I appreciated that about him. When he was here, he genuinely seemed to care about his family which is why it was so shocking that after his arrest he gave up. And also for the last three months when things got really bad there was no sign of him wanting to protect his family or keep us together.
He has this child-like naiveté to him. Like he didn’t know who the Rockettes were. He didn’t know a lot of cultural references. I found it kind of endearing. I really admired his physical strength and stamina. He was an extremely hard worker with yard projects and other projects. He had a lot of patience unless he was abusive and then he would get mad and scream and yell and swear. And because I don’t know how to set boundaries with my husband that work, it feels impossible.
Struggling to Hold On After Infidelity: Hoping for Change in a Difficult Relationship
I’m missing the really good things about him. I’m also missing the times we worked together to accomplish things. We really got along on all major decisions–church things, where to move, what to do. Every major decision was easy for us. We never fought about that. Because he was abusive we constantly had trouble with the little things. That’s what made life difficult on a day-to-day basis.
We moved 6 times in 5 years. We started out in Spokane, Washington, and then he was laid off. So we moved in with my parents. Then we moved to Washington D.C. where he was a patent examiner. We lived there for two years. During this time, his abuse I attributed to his job in 2008. We also had to sell our house.
It was very stressful so I attributed his abuse to stress and thought that once we could sell our house and get him a new job, he would be better. Then we moved to Washington D.C. and he was in the patent office and I thought, “This is a temporary situation. We live in a small apartment in inner city Alexandria. Once he gets his career established and we can move into a home, it will get better.” I was working so hard to make things better and it made me so angry that he kept being unfaithful.
Facing The Anger: Developing Inner Peace After Infidelity
Then we moved back to Utah and moved in with my parents. This was difficult and I thought that once we got our own house, things will be better. We bought a home that I did not like the floorplan. We couldn’t fit a dining room table in the kitchen, for example. I thought that if we moved to a more permanent home where we could live forever and raise our family there, things would be better.
So then we bought the home that I am in now. Which is my dream home. I absolutely adore it and I never want to leave. We began remodeling and I thought that once it was remodeled and settled then he will be better. There would be less stress and he wouldn’t act badly. But he began to get worse. About a year after moving into our dream home. He wanted to move again. He talked about getting a new job and changing. I said no. This was our life now and it’s what it means to have a life together. He felt trapped and stuck and was angry.
How Can You Develop Peace After The Anger Of Infidelity
I thought, “Ok. All of these remodeling projects are pushing him over the edge, so no more remodeling projects for awhile.” And he actually got worse. I was still thinking about the projects and preparing for them, so it’s not like they had stopped completely in the discussion of them. Just the physical work stopped. In fact, my mom is a kitchen designer. She had just done the plans to remodel the kitchen and take down a wall when his arrest happened. It’s a good thing we didn’t start that project.
That summer when things escalated, I remember thinking: “Things will get better when the kids are in school.” The kids got in school and it didn’t get better. I’m not sure what I would have thought. We were in our dream home. I had said no more projects until he stopped acting the way he did. There wasn’t anything else I could blame. I couldn’t blame his job. I couldn’t blame our living situation. And I couldn’t blame stress because we had the “perfect” life at that time.
Why Does Inner Strength Help In Healing The Anger From Infidelity
There was always an excuse for abuse. There was always a reason. He’s stressed. He feels shame, shame causes infidelity. There is always going to be some reason. But, Sisters, non-abusive men get stressed and they don’t scream and swear in your face! They get stressed and they don’t use. They feel shame and they kneel down and pray and turn to the scriptures and repent! Difficult situations DO NOT cause abuse! Negative feelings do not cause pornography use. Choices do. The type of man who is safe will feel sadness and shame and stress and they will choose kindness. They will choose to obey the commandments. They will choose to protect their family. This is what you deserve and I deserve.
I want to share with you scriptures I read this morning. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are Christians and we study from the Bible and Book of Mormon. This passage is from the Book of Mormon. It’s from Alma 5:55-57. This is a prophet calling people to repentance and letting them know what will happen.
Inner Peace & Spirituality
Yea, and will you persist in turning your backs upon the poor, and the needy, and in withholding your substance from them? And finally, all ye that will persist in your wickedness, I say unto you that these are they who shall be hewn down and cast into the fire except they speedily repent.
And now I say unto you, all you that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate…
Here is Christ telling the people to separate themselves from the wickedness. I am going to read that again…(v 57-60)
…come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things; and behold, their names shall be blotted out, that the names of the wicked shall not be numbered among the names of the righteous, that the word of God may be fulfilled, which saith: The names of the wicked shall not be mingled with the names of my people.
Angry After Infidelity: Facing The Dark Times
For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be fulfilled.
For what shepherd is there among you having many sheep doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and devour his flock? And behold, if a wolf enter his flock doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at the last, if he can, he will destroy him.
And now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you; if you will hearken unto his voice he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep; and he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed.
Here is a commandment straight from Jesus Christ: and he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed. (v 60)
I’m going to read that again. And he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed.
Movign On From Anger Comes With Inner Peace
Sisters, we love our husbands. I absolutely loved and adored my husband. For 7 years I sacrificed everything to try and help him and save my family. Here God is commanding me and commanding you: suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed.
I know a lot of you are wondering what God wants for you. God wants you to be safe. He wants you to have a peaceful home. You cannot have a peaceful home with a ravenous wolf within the walls. This is a time for all of us to stand for truth and righteousness in a way we never have before. The reason why it’s so scary is because there are men in our church who look at us like we’re crazy! There are people who say that our boundaries are not righteous or that we are not being loving or kind or forgiving. None of this is true.
Can Boundary-Setting Help You Heal Your Anger After Infidelity?
The most compassionate thing you can do for your husband it set a boundary. God is commanding you to. I don’t know what that boundary is going to look like and also I don’t really know how Heavenly Father is going to help you. Your anger at his infidelity can help you protect yourself. There were so many times where I felt so alone and so scared.
And that was with amazing and supportive parents who were incredible. And so many of you don’t have supportive parents or friends and the isolation is so intense. I do know that you stepping toward faith and obeying the commandment to “…suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you.” If you start making steps towards obeying this commandment, you will be blessed. I have no idea how.
And I’m pretty sure that before you’re blessed, things may get a lot worse. But I have to think that God keeps His promises. I also look at people like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mother Theresa and George Washington and our founding fathers and the suffragettes and what they sacrificed. They sacrificed their lives for truth. I’m making sacrifices and still get to stay in my beautiful home and I get to dig in my garden.
For many of you, what I am going to ask you to do is going to be hard. You might have to leave your home. You might have to be on food stamps. Some of you are facing homelessness. I just pray that you will let God lead you, that as we create an army of healthy women that will suffer “no ravenous wolf to come among us” that we can change the world.
Until next week, stay safe out there.
What Is Post Separation Abuse? – Marcie’s Story
May 06, 2025
Navigating life after separation can be challenging, especially if you’re dealing with post-separation abuse. What is post separation abuse? Unfortunately, this is a reality for many women, particularly mothers, who continue to suffer abuse from their ex-husbands.
What is post separation abuse? Post-separation abuse refers to the continuation of emotional, financial, and psychological abuse by an ex-partner after a relationship has ended. It can manifest in various ways, often leaving the victim feeling trapped and stressed. Understanding and identifying the signs of post-separation abuse is crucial for taking steps towards healing and protection.
1. Financial Abuse
One common form of post-separation abuse is financial abuse. This can include your ex shutting down your bank account or refusing to pay for childcare and other essential expenses related to your children. Additionally, they withhold important financial information necessary for the divorce process. That is another tactic they use to exert control and cause distress.
2. Unauthorized Entry
Another form of post-separation abuse involves unauthorized entry into your personal spaces. Abusers may sneak into your car, garage, or home, violating agreed-upon boundaries. If you notice items out of place or signs of tampering with security systems, it is important to consult your attorney and possibly law enforcement to ensure your safety.
3. Manipulating Your Children’s Lives
Post-separation abuse can also include creating chaos for your children in order to exert control over you. Such as, refusing to adhere to set schedules or neglecting to take your children to extracurricular activities. They may also send subtly intimidating emails. They are difficult to pinpoint as dangerous. But they intend to cause fear and anxiety.
Get The Right Support while you are experiencing Post-separation abuse
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we recognize the difficulty of understanding post-separation abuse. And are dedicated to providing the support you need. Our community offers:
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions: Join one of our many group sessions for support, guidance, and understanding from women who have been through similar experiences.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions: Receive one-on-one attention and strategies tailored to your situation with our specially trained betrayal trauma coaches.
Why Choose Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions?
Expert Support: Our professional coaches experienced personal betrayal trauma. They are equipped to help you find peace and protection for yourself and your family.
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If you’re going through post-separation abuse, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn the secrets of why an ex would continue to cause chaos after divorce.
Transcript: What Is Post Separation Abuse?
Anne: What is post-separation abuse? Marcie’s here to tell her story. We’ll talk about the post-separation abuse she experienced since her divorce. Welcome Marcie
Marcie: Hi.
Anne: Can you start at the beginning of your story?
Marcie: Before that, I’d like to share a funny story. This was when we had originally separated. I tried to send something to my husband to help him understand the situation. It happened to be something from you. And I didn’t know it was from you at the time. It just resonated with me, and I thought it would help.
And since that time in all his communication, he references you as this horrible person trying to break up families. And do horrible things for women.
Early Relationship Dynamics
Marcie: And I feel like it’s ironic that now I’m actually part of that community and maybe helping other women in bad situations, like I was and currently still am.
Anne: So he introduced you to Betrayal Trauma Recovery?
Marcie: Well, I saw something I read and didn’t know it was Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Anne: And then you showed him, like, hey …
Marcie: Yeah.
Anne: … this will help you be a better person.
Marcie: Yes.
Anne: And since then, I am the devil.
Marcie: Of course.
Anne: And it’s my fault that you’re setting boundaries, rather than his abuse, of course.
Marcie: Yes.
Anne: I get that a lot, no worries. I’m happy to take that heat for you. So talk about the beginning.
Marcie: I met him in high school, and I was young. It was actually before I started high school, so I was very inexperienced with relationships or this type of behavior. And at the beginning, like most of us, it doesn’t start feeling wrong, it starts feeling great. This person is loving. I misunderstood controlling things as loving things.
Like, oh, you shouldn’t do that with your friend. That might not be safe for you, but it was a controlling issue. Then we married fairly young and had kids. Then a lot of these things that now I look back with eyes open and see were wrong or damaging. I was told this is normal, I’m crazy, and all the typical things that most of us hear in these situations.
And then we feel like, well, that must be true. It must be us.
https://youtu.be/odtr70bY2Ew?si=xxY6fBWFYW954bV8
Appeasing Him
Marcie: I am now, in my fifties. Our relationship started when I was 14 and we married when I was 21. I feel like it took me a long time to realize that it was such a problem. But I basically tried to appease him in every way possible, because when I didn’t, it was miserable. So that happened for a long time. And then there was the fear of not appeasing him or doing things his way.
Anne: So back then, you were doing that to protect yourself.
Marcie: Absolutely.
Anne: You didn’t know that you were resisting back then, but that was a form of resistance, trying to get it to stop.
Marcie: Absolutely, I felt like if I was what he wanted me to be, then it would stop. And of course, in whatever discussions we had about it, or arguments, it was usually my fault. Whatever reaction I was getting was because I wasn’t doing something right. Or I wasn’t being what he needed me to be. So I kept trying to resist his behavior by doing whatever I could to be the best wife I could be.
I literally ran myself ragged trying, but it was impossible. And it never really made things better.
Anne: Hmm, when did you notice that wasn’t improving things for you?
Marcie: I noticed it a long time ago. But I just kept trying, because I didn’t know what my options were. And the longer it went on, I think the more I felt like it was my fault that I couldn’t be what he needed. He kept telling me that, or that I was crazy.
Understanding Post Separation Abuse
Marcie: There was one point where he, this was quite a while ago, like at least 20 years ago. He said I needed antidepressants because I was hard to deal with. Before I actually left, I realized, of course, I was depressed. I lived with someone who made it impossible to function. He made it impossible to have any type of normal life. He constantly made me feel like I was inadequate, horrible, or bad at everything I did.
It was confusing. And honestly, I didn’t have much time to think about how I felt, because I was the sole financial provider for our family of eight. And I worked a lot, plus I had all the responsibilities at home. I attributed it to my busyness. Or that, I don’t know, I didn’t have much chance to think about how I was feeling. When I realized I was depressed, we tried therapy. It doesn’t work in abusive situations.
And the therapist we went to was horrible, because he wouldn’t let me talk about the past. He felt like I’m going to fix this and this magical person who’s going to fix your relationship. We’re going to build from right now, and we’re not going to go into the past at all. And that was really empowering to my ex husband, because he didn’t want to talk about the past either.
There was actually discussion before I went to the therapist about, you can’t talk about certain things. And I told him, well, if we don’t talk about those things, that are some of the major issues. How will we resolve our problems? And I couldn’t say certain things without fear of what the reaction would be when we returned home.
Therapy & Depression
Marcie: And the therapist would not allow me to speak. And we did have a test. There were a bunch of questions that we were both supposed to fill out. I answered things honestly, and it came back that I was depressed. He mocked me for that, made fun of me for that. And it just emphasized that I was the problem because I was depressed. It emphasized his impression that it was my fault, and yeah, I couldn’t handle everything.
Anne: He’s like, you’re going to work full time and take care of these kids full time. Your depression is causing me problems because dinner’s not on the table. He’s an exploitative person with an exploitative character. One of the things I want women to think about is what do they want? What is the goal of him telling you that you’re depressed? Is it to get you to work harder? Or is it to get you to feel bad about yourself? Is it to get you to stop trying to get him to do something?
They usually have something in mind that they’re trying to accomplish. In your case, I think he probably worried you might find out who he was, because he relied on you for everything.
Marcie: I definitely believe that was the case. That was towards the end of our, I don’t know if you could call it a relationship, whatever it was. And I had started to question him a lot more. I had started to say no a lot more, which, by the way, for anybody before they get into a relationship, there’s a simple test.
The “No” Test, Manipulation & Control
Marcie: It’s the ‘no” test. You say no to something and see how they react. And that’s the simplest, easiest way to figure out how people react. But I started saying no. And of course, I became more problematic. I became more difficult.
Anne: He wanted you to continue to say yes. So he’s manipulative when he says, that’s why you’re saying no. Because you’re certainly not saying no, because it’s an unreasonable request I’m making.
Marcie: Most of us in this situation experience the fact. That the way we do things for them, the way we bend over backwards to make them happy, they love. It’s not a problem for them at all. So they have a hard time seeing that there’s a problem in a relationship, because for them, they get what they want. And if they don’t, they throw a fit, and then usually they do.
Anne: It’s working for them. If they can scare you enough or manipulate you enough, the victim resists this type of behavior by doing what he wants. They think that will reduce the behavior, he’s happy about that. She’s still resisting the abuse, and still trying to make things better.
She’s always trying to improve her situation. And if she’s trying to improve it by being like, if I do this, he won’t get mad at me. Or if I do this, it’ll improve things. Then he’s like, cool. But he’s not thinking about you. He’s not thinking about your feelings. He’s just trying to get what he wants out of the situation.
What Is Post Separation Abuse: Recording Conversations To Maintain clarity
Marcie: Absolutely, that depression thing was such a small slice of, there’s gotta be something wrong with me. I started recording things to help me realize that I wasn’t crazy. At first, the only reason why I recorded was he keeps telling me something that didn’t happen. Or he keeps telling me that this conversation didn’t go the way that it did. We’d had circular arguments about well, yes, you said this and this is what you said.
“No, I didn’t, I never said that. You’re wrong. See, you can’t remember things correctly. Your brain doesn’t work,” all those negative things that would make me go, what’s wrong with me? Why am I remembering these things incorrectly, or why am I remembering it differently from what he said? And in my mind, I know it went that way. So the only way I could confirm that in my brain was to record the conversations.
I want to emphasize how dangerous recording can be if he found out. Because he doesn’t want that, doesn’t want to be contradicted. I started feeling empowered when I realized I’m not crazy. I’m not making this up. Sometimes he accused me of like screaming and yelling at him, and I’d listen to it.
I’m like, well, I didn’t scream and yell or this didn’t happen. Whatever it was, it confirmed that what he was saying wasn’t true. And it was so helpful for me to start seeing this as abuse or to see that, there was a problem.
Anne: Yeah, that’s very brave of you. And also really awesome.
Journaling & Trauma Response
Anne: When I went through it, one of the things I did for a very short time was write in my journal, good days and bad days. Because in my head, I thought, okay, he’s just wonky three days a month. And I did the math and I was like, oh, that’s only 10 percent of a month. Is three out of 30 in an ideal marriage, 27 days and 3 days a bad marriage. Is three days worth it?
And I did these calculations, but when I actually wrote it down, it was happening every day. I just didn’t notice it was happening every day when I wasn’t tracking it. Recording it or journaling is so helpful.
Marcie: I also journaled and feel like that was tremendously helpful. I did that before I started recording. Like what you said, to get an idea of what was happening. Quite a few years ago, I actually had called to get help for him because he threatened suicide. If I didn’t do things his way, he threatened suicide.
And so I called for help for him. They referred to someone else, and they told me about power and control wheel. Which helped me understand this too. But I also went to a therapist at that time. And I expressed to her, we’ll have these horrible arguments in the evening. And then the next day I cannot remember them.
I can’t remember what they were about. It’s like, I can’t remember anything, no matter how hard I tried. And she explained to me that that is a trauma response to help you function.
Living In Between Horrible Things
Marcie: She basically explained it to me, as if you remember these difficult situations, you might not be able to function the next day. And so that’s a trauma response. So writing them down is hard, because you have to address them. But then, like what you said, you thought it was only three times a month when it was every day. I think our brains want us to forget the horrible things, so we do.
Anne: Well, and also, the next day he seems normal, at least in my experience. I thought, well, maybe I’m crazy. He seems fine today. It wasn’t like the next day he woke up and he was terrible. He acted fine. That made it confusing too like thinking, oh, it’s fine.
In those times where you feel desperate for help, that’s a great time to take action. To call a local domestic violence shelter, or attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery group session in that moment. Because you often let it sit for a minute, and then things seem fine, and it doesn’t seem weird to you until it happens again. So you’re always living in between.
Marcie: That’s making sense. The only thing is for myself and my situation, I had a fear to reach out for help. Which probably a lot of us do. I just intuitively knew that would be crossing a line of his, which would send him into a negative way.
Confronting the reality of Abuse
Marcie: And there was a time when we had this situation. Where he chased me through the house and backed me into a corner. I put my hands up, and he was so close to me that my hands were on his chest. And I said, you need to leave me alone. And after that happened, I don’t remember how it ended. But he kept telling me that I had put my hands on him, and he could call the police and say I assaulted him. Because I put my hands on him and he didn’t touch me at all.
I was trying to explain to him how that doesn’t sound right. It wasn’t the case, and he said you could call anybody and they would side with me. It was just another typical thing that he would say, how other people would feel about certain situations. And so I said, okay, well then let’s call the domestic abuse hotline right now. And he’s like, go ahead, call. He didn’t think I would call, but I did. They immediately told me, this is not a safe situation. This is not good.
But after that call, he was angrier with me than I’ve ever seen him. He explained it to me as the biggest betrayal he has ever felt from me. It was worse than if I had an affair. And I feel like that was because being found out or proved wrong was the worst thing he could experience.
Anne: Or he’s just lying in that moment.
Marcie: Or lying.
Anne: To make you feel like he feels super betrayed for you calling the domestic violence shelter, in order to intimidate you.
Marcie: Yes.
Lies & Recording Conversations
Anne: They lie so much that it’s hard to be like, yeah, that was so devastating for him. Because he told me, I’m thinking, was it? Was it devastating for him? Because he’s a liar. We just never know what is going on in their minds, since they lie so much.
Marcie: Well, in looking back, there are so many things that are lies that I didn’t see as lies. Or didn’t want to see as lies or didn’t want to believe as lies that now I know. But that brings me back to the beauty of recording. So flash forward many years from that, that first original recording to now, where four years ago. I got a restraining order, which allowed me to record conversations between him and me, or him and the children.
It’s specific for victims of domestic violence who have a restraining order. To record, so I could record and use those recordings in court.
Anne: Did he know that you were allowed to do this?
Marcie: Yes.
Anne: Okay, so he knows he’s being recorded?
Marcie: He knows he’s being recorded, but I don’t know if most of these people are like this. He’s very cocky. I think he’d forget, too. Or he didn’t care or didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. In fact, at the beginning, he definitely didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. There were recordings from when he had phone calls and supervised visits. And these were during those phone calls, and he felt okay, because this was the way he was feeling.
Differences Between Counties Dealing With Custody
Marcie: So it was a right for him to let them know. But when I transcribed those recordings, things such as your mother is trying to kill me by doing this, and your mother hates me. And just things that were not appropriate for children to hear.
Marcie: Correct, and this has been going on for four years. In the meantime, because of those recorded conversations, they’ve limited his phone calls to a shorter amount of time. As well as took away the supervised visits. Which he wasn’t doing anyway, because when I stopped planning them for him, it was too much work or whatever. I don’t know. He didn’t want to pay for it, but he didn’t do it, but they took away that right and made it just phone calls.
But another important thing for people in the situation to know is that. The county in which you reside is the court where your custody issues will be heard. And I don’t know if that’s in all states, but I know in California, that’s the issue. So there are many counties that understand domestic abuse. And they try to understand that dynamic when they make decisions regarding the children.
There are other counties that do not understand that dynamic. They tend to feel that both parents should be with the children no matter what. And they don’t take into account the background or danger. So for many women who are having some big challenges within the court system, that if they live in another county, they might get a different viewpoint and a different result.
Post Separation Abuse INcludes legal maniplulation
Marcie: I’ve also experienced, legal abuse where he keeps going back to court.
Anne: His post separation abuse includes him taking you back to court, even though you’re divorced and even though he has a protective order? Is his protective order still in place?
Marcie: It was made permanent. But in his communication with me previously, he threatened me that he’s going to keep going to court. He has said, this is the only thing you understand. And he’s been in contempt in some ways that have caused me to respond to things worse that have cost me money.
Anne: Yeah, it’s so frustrating that they can wreak so much havoc, and the court system doesn’t stop them. It’s a very difficult situation, and that’s why strategy, I think, is so important. And why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because confronting them or communicating better, or all the things the therapist might tell you.
Or a guardian ad litem might tell you, or reunification therapists will tell you, do not work. So many of you have experienced the trauma of all that. And strategy, we found, is the only thing that can help us stay sane.
Financial Manipulation
Anne: I mean, he’s costing you all this money. Since you were the primary breadwinner, did he actually start working?
Marcie: No.
Anne: So he’s doing legal abuse, how is he paying for his legal stuff?
Marcie: He keeps saying he’s borrowing money, but I know he’s getting it from family members. It’s just his way. He always has people take care of him or pay for him. And it ties into his narrative of how he will describe what’s happening and make me the villain.
Anne: To place him in the victim role.
Marcie: Yes.
Anne: Rather than the perpetrator. You were the primary breadwinner, did he get alimony from you?
Marcie: No.
Anne: Whew, he’s probably mad about that. He lost his meal ticket.
Marcie: He did.
Anne: Yeah, I bet that’s the thing that’s the most anger producing for him.
Marcie: Yeah.
Anne: You’re not good for anything now.
Marcie: I am useless.
Anne: Yeah, you’re completely useless to him. That’s what we want to be, we want to be useless.
Marcie: Yes.
Anne: To these guys. Let’s talk about the smear campaign he started. Smear campaigns are common with post separation abuse. Was this, I guess, during your divorce proceedings?
Smear Campaign
Marcie: Yes, all along, he leaves out small details, sometimes large details. Or sometimes totally represents things differently from how they are to be the victim. And when I originally contacted you, I asked how do you deal with the smear campaign. This is happening with my in-laws, and it was so upsetting to me to feel like I had lost my in-laws. I’m sure many women have felt the same feeling. I’ve known them since I was a teenager.
I feel like they thought of me like a daughter, and the ironic part is they knew how he was. Not to the extent of what I knew, but they knew, and several times his dad said, I’m sorry he’s acting that way. I don’t know why he behaves that way to you sometimes, it doesn’t sound right.
His mom would say similar things, things like, if he keeps treating the children that way, they’re not going to want to talk to him. They knew how he was. He would treat them that same way, but they don’t want to talk to me. My adult children have refused to talk to their father, and they feel like that’s horrible. His post separation abuse includes his lies to everyone about me.
They don’t interact with them. They barely interact with their younger grandchildren anymore. And it’s just sad, but at first it was really, really upsetting. And then I realized, well, if they’re believing him. If they’re going to stand beside him when he’s abusive and believe things that aren’t true. I guess it has to be okay that those people aren’t in my life anymore.
What Is Post Separation Abuse: False Memories & Manipulation
Marcie: Oh, that’s so hard. So, on the phone calls with the kids, he tells them things that aren’t true. Well, gosh, there are so many things that he does to them that I feel are so damaging for them. They’re not small, tiny children, but still. He plants false memories. Do you remember when we did this together, and this together? Or I have the memory of whatever it was, being miserable because he didn’t want to go, or they weren’t behaving,
Like, for instance, my youngest is 12 and my oldest is 31. My ex-husband was really into baseball. He played when he was a kid. None of the kids had done any type of baseball or organized sports. The younger children wanted to, but weren’t able to when we were together. There was always an excuse we’re not going to have time, whatever. But after I left, it was the first time my youngest son was enrolled in Little League, and he loved it.
My ex husband kept saying, remember when we used to go outside and play baseball all the time? I always wanted you to be in sports, but it couldn’t work because of mom’s schedule.
Anne: It’s your mom’s fault that you couldn’t take baseball. Yeah, Um hmm. That’s one example of manipulation being a tactic of post separation abuse. Your ex is using the kids to hurt you.
Marcie: And I think, well, before I would have fallen into that and felt the guilt. But now I think, well, okay, if it was my fault, then how come I did that after I left you? But I couldn’t do it when there were two people in the home?
Impact On Children
Marcie: It was so much harder to do anything. But just the false memories of, we used to go out and play catch all the time, which is not true. A lot of those type of things. The criminal things or the things he did to break the restraining order. There were so many more things, but they don’t address it in the way you’d like. Let’s put it that way.
But I don’t talk to the kids about the court cases or anything like that, because I feel it’s not for them to be concerned about it. I don’t want them to be part of that. But he would tell them incorrect information about what they’re about, leave out all the important things, and tell them that Mom’s doing this because she doesn’t want me to see you. Those types of things damaged my relationship with the children.
Anne: And that’s the point. He’s purposefully doing that to do damage. It damages you and the kids, and that is the intent of post separation abuse, which is so unfortunate.
Marcie: It is very hard. Only two out of six of my children will speak with him. Of the two that do, that’s obviously where it’s the most damaging. I’m having trouble with my 17 year old because he’s trying to be the cool dad. He’s encouraging him to stay out late on school nights, not with friends, but with him, and he’s missed school. And he’s actually not supposed to see him, but that’s another thing. He’s luring them with being able to buy them things.
Anne: Does he have a job now?
Marcie: No, he does not. He gets money from family members, and he claims to be homeless. Yet he purchases things for them.
Processing The Abuse
Marcie: That’s where recording comes in wonderfully, because we do have a court case that he started. He wants custody again. And I think this time I’m including a lot of recordings that I’ve transcribed, which has been helpful.
Anne: It started when you were 14, and has continued this whole time, and everything he’s done has been part of that con. And he continues to do that con. You are experiencing post separation abuse. He lies to your kids, and he lies to everybody else. So the whole thing has been the show. So if you can think of it in that overarching way of, it’s been this show. And then, how do you tell the story within that con? That might help you process it.
Marcie: When you put it in that sense, it is just a continuous con. He’s just reaching and grabbing for different cons that will work. That helps put it in perspective.
Anne: Yeah, because he’s doing the same thing over and over. Even though it’s maybe not the same lie. It’s lying in a different way, but it’s still just lying.
Marcie: Looking back at it, it feels so surreal. Like it feels like it’s not real because it’s so insane. Does that make sense?
Anne: Um hmm, totally.
Marcie: And I feel like people aren’t going to believe me, because how could that be true? How could anyone act like that? Plus, he’s saying something different. So I think I still have a lot of healing to do, which is frustrating.
What Is Post Separation Abuse: We can help you understand
Anne: That’s the purpose of this podcast. It’s a safe place where everybody gets it and believes you. We don’t care what he says or thinks, we know he’s a liar. Here, you’re 100% believed. What is post separation abuse? We know and can help. So because of that, it’s such a safe place to be. Like, I can share my story, and he’s not going to talk back to me.
Marcie: Sometimes when you share your story with people who don’t understand, they back away or it’s just too much.
Anne: With me, I’m like, tell me more. So thank you so much, Marcie.
Marcie: Thank you so much.
The Long-Term Effects Of A Bad Marriage – Florence’s Story
Apr 29, 2025
If you’ve endured repeated betrayal from your husband, you’re not alone. Many women in our community have faced the long-term effects of emotional abuse in their marriage. Florence, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, a victim of her husband’s emotional abuse for over 40 years, shares her story.
Being in an emotionally abusive relationship for a prolonged period often leaves women feeling deep loss and regret. We tend to reflect on the years spent enduring mistreatment, unaware of the full extent of our husband’s harmful behavior. This realization can lead to feelings of missed opportunities, wondering what life might have been like.
The long-term emotional impact includes grief over lost time and the struggle to reclaim their sense of self and hope for the future. The effects of emotional abuse, can be felt long term and include:
Transcript: Long-Term Effects of Emotional Abuse in Relationships
Anne: I’m honored to have a member of our community on the podcast today. We’re going to call her Florence. She’s 75 years old. She’s experienced over 40 years of betrayal trauma. She discovered her husband’s infidelity just 3 days after their wedding. She is strong, insightful and courageous. Florence, can you talk about your first reaction finding out about your husband’s double life?
Florence: My first reaction was devastation and fear. Back in those days, women didn’t have the same options as they do today. I had just moved my two daughters and myself to a new location where I had no friends or associates. And very little opportunity to find gainful employment to support myself. In doing so, I had cut off any support systems that I might’ve had, and I was really on my own. Additionally, I didn’t know that this was the start of long-term effects of emotional abuse.
Anne: So were you married before this?
Florence: I was, this was my second marriage. And I had two daughters; they were five and eight. I went deep into a place of trying to comprehend. At that time in my life, I didn’t call myself a spiritual person. In fact, I did not have a religious persuasion, and I found myself searching. To do that, I did what I think many people do. What I’ve read is that they explore with their spouse. And try to figure out what their spouse is looking for and needing.
And of course, that leads one into probably the darkest places on earth, because it’s a world of debauchery. It didn’t take me long to figure out that was not for me.
“He apologized and swore that he would never make those choices again.”
Florence: I had to make a heartfelt decision and tell my husband that I could not live that kind of life. In fact, it was not the right thing for me at all. It hurt my heart. It didn’t help my heart, and he apologized and swore he would never make those bad choices again. And we started over until the next time.
And the next time I became aware of his activities, I knew enough to go for help. Then we both went through a lot of counseling. It came trailing back in. And the problem was that I didn’t realize he had regressed back to those activities. I was only experiencing the negative behavior and the abuse.
Which after 20, 25, 30 years of marriage, you get to the point where you do your own thing, you make the best of it. Because I experienced the long-term effects of emotional abuse in rmy marriage. And if somebody wants to be a damn fool and act like a child. Let them be a damn fool and act like a child. You just can’t let that run your life.
Anne: Did you know you were being abused? Or did you think of it as …
Florence: I knew I was abused and I knew he was sick. I’ve been doing a lot of reflecting, because the last year has been a year of repeated difficulties and such a challenge. And I remember when my youngest daughter was 15 years old, and she and I took a trip out west.
“I became aware of the fact that nobody would believe me.”
Florence: We visited a childhood friend of mine. And he asked me face-to-face, “What’s wrong? You’re not right.”
I said, “Well, my husband isn’t right, he’s sick.” I didn’t elaborate on it. How could I? I didn’t have the words for it. I remember thinking many years later, the only people I could tell were people I’d known for a long time. Who actually had some confidence in me, because I became aware that nobody would believe me. People will say, “Oh, he’s so charming. Oh, he’s such a sweet man.”
And he is. He’s a beguiling, needful child. What do you do? Go out on the street and bang a drum and say, I’m being emotionally abused by a man who can’t show me love. Or who can’t relate to me. No, you can’t do that. Nobody will believe you. So you try to create wellness within a challenging situation. And that’s what I did for years until it all broke open. For the last 10 years, I thought he had frontal temporal lobe disorder. It’s the second time I’ve misdiagnosed him in my life. This is the reality of betrayal trauma in relationships.
So obviously I’m not much of a psychotherapist. But because of his anger, I felt his actions were typical of frontal temporal lobe dementia. In fact, I actually got him to go to a neurologist. It was embarrassing and a waste of time. It’s not Alzheimer’s, I’m right? It’s frontal temporal lobe. Well, I wasn’t right. Yeah, it’s very hard when you get older. I was suffering from his long-term emotional abuse.
Things don’t work the way they used to, when it isn’t what it was when you were kids. But every now and then you get the opportunity to enjoy one another to some extent.
Long-Term Effects Of Emotional Abuse: Embracing Honesty
Florence: And he gave me an STD, and that was the rude awakening. He had been back to his old tricks.
Anne: Oh, I am so sorry. That must have been so shocking and devastating. Hopefully, it brings you some kind of solace to know that you were resisting his abuse. The entire time you were going for help. And the professionals and experts you went to didn’t give you the right information. I’m so sorry. The extent of the suffering we go through for years, and years can’t be underestimated.
You mentioned that as you got older, and it just continued to happen over and over, the long-term effects of his emotional abuse resulted in you detaching. Is that where you are now? I
Florence: It’s been like a fast forward of an earlier movie of everything that ever occurred. I go in a circle, and some days I am distraught and in pain, and feel sorry for myself. And then I go through days where I am so angry. It’s like a circular thing that goes around. I’ve been able to grapple with this, because now I can be honest with our friends and family. And everybody knows. The freedom to be honest and forthright makes it possible to handle.
Anne: Yeah, having the best support for betrayal trauma is important. What thoughts do you have for women who’ve discovered this five years after your wedding or 10 years after your wedding? What would you say to yourself?
If Florence Could Go Back & Talk With Her Younger Self
Florence: You can’t help them. You can’t fix them. This has been my counter argument to my husband in all his attempts to heal himself. As it was convenient now that you’re 80 and impotent, you made these choices. Also, they have a responsibility, and that responsibility is to their partner and their families.
As somebody who suffered from it my whole life, I’m saying, you can’t give me back the past 20 years. Because I didn’t know you were doing this. I knew you were being a jerk. But if I had known he went back to deviant practices, I wouldn’t have stayed. I might’ve had the chance to build a life with someone who might genuinely care and show real regard. And I miss that, and nobody can give it back to me.
That’s where the anger comes from. Although many professionals told me, oh, you need counseling. So I tried that across all mental health professionals. But I found that most therapists are not equipped to deal. And they tend to try to use behavior modification, which they’ve learned somewhere in graduate school. If you do this, then he’ll do that. And if you do that …
Anne: Right.
Florence: It doesn’t work. And I went to four sessions with one therapist, and I just walked out. I said, this isn’t good for me. I’m getting angry about this. So I quit going.
Where Does That Leave Me?
Florence: And I’ve also challenged my husband on the fact that the addict thing is very self-absorbing. They’re all involved in taking care of themselves and getting better and praise God. And you know, it’s like wait a minute you’re still just thinking about yourself.
Where does that leave me? I’m still dealing with the long-term emotional abuse . And it still leaves me on my own. It still leaves me wanting and, you know, wanting …
Anne: Yeah, I’m so sorry, awful. Having experienced this emotional abuse long-term, right, your whole life. And then not having anybody identify it for you. And having the professionals you went to for help blame you. Then make you part of the problem. When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery when you found this podcast, how did you feel?
Long-Term Effects Of Emotional Abuse: Knowing I’m Not Alone
Florence: It was good to know that I wasn’t alone. Most people just don’t get it. They think your husband is a philanderer. Well, of course they are. But there’s so much more to it than that. The best thing that’s happened to me and the last year is the ability, to be honest, to speak my truth. Though I am still sad about the loss I’ve had in my life, years wasted because of long-term emotional abuse in my marriage.
There are people with worse lives. But I think people need to reevaluate who they are and what they want. And I do think that many women, myself included, were raised with low expectations and a low sense of self. So we didn’t know when we weren’t being treated well. We may have known it, but we didn’t think we had any right to do anything about it.
https://youtu.be/rnqs_ebBe6E
Anne: Well, I’m glad you know now that you are important and your needs matter, and deserve respect and care. Living in that alternate reality. That you lived in for so long is exactly why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Click on that link to get more information. So that women can see reality. That you are incredible, strong, capable and powerful. To get more information, go to that link.
And thank you so much Florence, you are brave and amazing. We all stand on your shoulders and the shoulders of the women who came before us. So thank you so much.
Patterns To Look Out for In Your Relationship with Dave Cawley
Apr 22, 2025
If you’re wondering, “Is my relationship safe?” It’s important to look at patterns of abusive behavior. Physical abuse never happens without emotional abuse, so the first step is to understand the patterns of emotional abuse.
To discover if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Anne: I’ve invited Dave Cawley, an investigative journalist and host of the Cold podcast, back on today’s episode. We have already talked about season one of the Cold Podcast, which we re-aired last week. He calls that episode Signs your Husband might kill You. It’s important for every woman experiencing emotional and psychological abuse to recognize it, and know is my husband abusing me? Because physical abuse never happens in a vacuum.
Dave and I will talk as if you’ve heard all the Cold podcasts, seasons one, two, and three. And if you haven’t, don’t worry. You’ll still benefit from listening to our analysis as we discuss the themes of all three seasons. Welcome Dave.
Dave: Thank you so much, Anne. I appreciate being with you.
Anne: So the three seasons of the Cold podcast, Dave, you cover in season one, the murder of Susan Powell. In season two, the Murder of Joyce Yost. And in season three, the murder of Sheree Warren. And you started season three by introducing us to a man named Cary Hartman. You describe his abusive behavior toward women in the form of what some people might call prank phone calls. Law enforcement called it an obscene phone call.
Really, these phone calls abused the women who received them. Even if they didn’t realize it. And even if they didn’t define it that way. Can you talk about why these abusive phone calls define Cary’s character?
Dave: Sheree Warren disappears in October of 1985. She was dating this man, Cary Hartman at the time, and at first Cary Hartman is not on the radar of the investigators.
Cary Hartman’s Criminal Activities
Dave: Police identified Cary Hartman as a suspect in a series of home invasion assaults a year and a half later. Where he literally breaks into women’s homes and attacks them, raping them. And so I actually start this story way before we ever meet Sheree with Cary Hartman’s first arrest in 1971.
Where he makes one of these calls, he tells this woman, basically a threat, that if he she will be harmed if he doesn’t get what he wants. And to your point, Anne, she was a victim. He abused abused her, right?
Anne: Yeah, at the time you interviewed her, did she recognize she was a victim of his abuse? Or did she just think like, oh, a criminal called me and I helped the police identify this guy?
Dave: At this point in her life, she was I wanna say about 86 years old when I interviewed her. Heidi Posnien, she’s an amazing woman, but her life experience was so different. I mean, she literally survived Berlin at the end of World War II as a child. And so her perception of how much risk she may or may not have been in at the time. I think it is different than you or I in the same situation.
And I think like many victims of abuse, she doesn’t like thinking about whether her husband is abusing her. When I sat down and interviewed her about it, it brought up bad memories even after all these years. It brought up emotions that she was uncomfortable with. You do this kind of thing.
Systemic Issues In Recognizing Abuse
Dave: Every day Anne, talking to people who have been through abuse. You know how difficult those conversations are. I was grateful Heidi was willing to take us there for the story. Because it allows the listener to begin to see the bigger picture. Like, what are the systemic things that are taking place in our society? That caused these kinds of things to be brushed off? It’s a minor crime, voyeurism, telephone harassment and nothing serious.
Anne: He has all these abusive episodes. Law enforcement doesn’t define them that way. There’s a difference between an obscene phone call, which is what they had written on their documents, right? And an abusive phone call. Like when people say something like, one out of every four women are domestic abuse victims in the state of Utah. Then women wonder is my husband abusing me and if so how do I divorce an abusive husband? They’re not saying a man abuses one out of every four women in the state of Utah.
Dave: Yeah, that’s a great point. I think, the investigators at the time, thought they caught him. He’s shamed, he’ll change. And if you have that perspective in law enforcement, you’ve gotta step back and look at it and say pattern wise, like what is happening here?
And with Cary Hartman, we know these phone calls escalated over time. He ends up calling thousands of women in a harassing way. Where he would try to get women to talk about their bodies, their clothing, in a way that titillated him. It’s still today thousands of victims who will never receive any measure of justice, and many probably brush it off. Eh, I just hung up on the guy.
Challenges In Addressing Abuse
Dave: And I think there is definitely a need to, at least from the perspective of a journalist. To think about how we talk about those kinds of situations, because we have to be objective. We have to be as unbiased as possible, but I think there’s also room for journalists to call a spade a spade. These are the actions that Cary Hartman took and you’re right, they are abusive. Let’s just call it what it is.
Anne: Yeah, I’m reminded of an interview I did with a man who spent, 10 years in prison for abuse. He considered himself an addict. And he said, I acted out in my addiction. That is how he described it. And I said, well, there’s another word for that. It’s that you were an abuser. And he was like, oh, I never thought about it like that. Women think that they can figure out how to deal with an addict husband not understanding that it’s abuse.
Dave: The, the focus on himself rather than on the person he was harming.
Anne: Yeah, If he’s an abuser, he hurts someone else, rather than he is an addict. He just acted out in his addiction.
Dave: Right, that’s a really good point.
Anne: Right?
Dave: I mean, part of the process for somebody who goes to prison for this kind of crime. If they will ever be paroled, it is usually that they have to go through some kind of therapy or treatment program. The DSM tailors this for mental health professionals trying to diagnose people.
Anne: It’s not about their victim. The DSM is thinking maybe we can get him to stop having this.
Dave: Paraphilic disorder.
Sex Offender Therapy & Its Effectiveness
Anne: There we go. Maybe we can get him to stop doing that, rather than maybe we should figure out how to protect other people from this person. And at least from all the victims I have interviewed, it has not worked. In fact, the domestic violence shelter will tell you that most of the time an abuser rehabilitation class, for example, makes them worse.
Dave: There is an argument that in some ways it might teach them to just be better about hiding it.
Anne: Exactly, and many accuse their victim of being an abuser, and then it gets confusing.
Dave: They learn all the language. They learn the terminology.
Anne: Exactly.
Dave: As far as the Sheree Warren case with Cary Hartman, as long as we’re talking about treatment. I mean, I think an interesting thing to note is that Cary Hartman ends up going to prison for 33 years in these cases. And during that time, they repeatedly require him to go through offender therapy. He needs to pass that. It is as a condition for release on parole.
Dave: They release Cary Hartman on parole in March of 2020. He got out of prison. And during the next four years, I lived in our community here in Utah, where I live and work. He was recently returned to prison because it was discovered he had been stalking a woman. According to the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole while he was out.
Cary Hartman’s Parole & Recidivism
Dave: So you have to stop and say, wait a minute. Did those 30 plus years in prison and repeat trips through offender therapy. Did they help Cary Hartman not harm people while back out in society? And it appears the answer to that question is no. So I wanna hope that those systems can work, but in this case specifically, it seems like it did not.
Anne: And me listening to that, at least the way you laid out the facts. As an abuse expert, I came to the conclusion that he figured out what the parole board wanted to hear. Victims wondering if their husband is abusive, might know their husband is saying what they want to hear. He went to offender therapy and eventually learned the words he needed to say. And he parrots that back to the parole board to their satisfaction, in order to be paroled.
I was so grateful they kept him in prison for so long. Because they could have let him out sooner. So that was a good part of the story, I thought.
Dave: Yeah, in conversations with law enforcement. People who investigated that case, or in the legal profession who tried that case in court, that came up repeatedly. They said, look, in a homicide, or let’s say a manslaughter, somebody who kills another person, they might do 10 years and get out. The fact that Cary Hartman was in for more than 30 years was a big deal, and the reason he was in so long is because he refused to accept responsibility.
And like you said, as a listener, I think it’s a fair takeaway to listen to all those years of him going before the parole board. And just slowly creeping forward.
Is My Husband Abusive? Learning From Offender Programs & Counseling
Dave: The little bit of accountability he would take until he reached that sweet spot where they said, okay, that’s enough. We’ll let you out.
Anne: Cary Hartman is a scary guy, but how much scarier would he have been had he learned faster? Let’s say he had gone to offender therapy sooner and taken accountability sooner. And sounded better sooner. He could have been let out sooner. The scariest ones to me are the ones who know that’s what they need to sound like. In terms of my listeners husbands, that’s what they sound like in couple therapy.
Or they might sound like that to clergy. And clergy might be like, yes, he’s repented. How do I help my listeners see, is this someone who is now safe or are you currently in danger? It’s so hard to idently if your husband is abusing you. At least, in danger of being emotionally and psychologically abused. In danger of an STD, being lied to is a concern when you’re supposed to trust.
Dave: So if I can segue off of that. In season one of Cold. When we talked about the case of Josh and Susan Powell, so this is a married couple. They’ve got two young sons, and there’s this extreme strife going on in their marriage. Susan is upset that Josh is controlling the money. He’s controlling her ability to spend time with friends and family, and she tries to drag him into therapy.
Doug Lovell & Manipulation
Dave: She tries to drag him in front of clergy. We actually have evidence from writings that Susan left behind after she was killed. She talks about, Josh says, if I call the police, if I call 9 1 1 and say he’s threatening me. When the police get here, he’s gonna be calm, I’m gonna be hysterical. And he’ll make me the one who’s irrational. She was conscious of these very things.
Moving forward, when we entered season two in Cold. There’s this story about Joyce Yost being murdered by this man, Doug Lovell. Doug Lovell goes to prison. He’s still in prison and had been sentenced to death twice. He’s had his death sentence overturned twice, and part of the reason is because since he went to prison. He has built relationships with clergy, people who go to prison to work with inmates, to help them hopefully become better people.
They prepare them to be released. Doug Lovell will not be released. He is, as I said, serving a death sentence or in limbo while they figure out whether his death sentence will go forward. But those relationships and the way he talks to clergy have allowed him to essentially create a group of supporters. who, when he goes to court, when he goes to trial, are willing to stand up in front of a judge or a jury and say, I believe Doug Lovell is a man with a good heart.
I believe he’s a man who’s changed. I believe he deserves a second chance. What we know is Doug Lovell murdered Joyce Yost and has refused to return her body.
Doug Lovell’s Legal Battles
Anne: Right, flat out manipulation Doug Lovell used to convince some people that he has a “good heart.” The evidence would be that he tells people exactly where that body is, which he has not done.
Dave: Right, that’s how you show true remorse in my mind, yeah.
Anne: In our community, we actually call this meatloafing. It’s from The Meatloaf song I would do anything for love, but I won’t do that.
Dave: This is interesting, and it gets into the weeds of the court case. Lovell, there’s no question he’s responsible. He did admit to it, but that was part of a plea deal in 1993, where he was trying to get a chance for life with parole. At the time, Utah did not have a law that allowed life without parole, so the choice was life with parole or the death sentence. And he thought, if I admit to it, there’s this plea deal on the table. And I will have a chance of getting out of prison.
Before the case actually went to sentencing, though, the law changed, and the prosecutors pulled life with parole off the table. And at that point Lovell said, I don’t want to plead guilty anymore. And this is part of why that case ended up going through appeal after appeal. The death sentence ended up being rescinded because the appeals courts determined that Lovell was not appropriately advised of the rights he was giving up. So he goes back to trial in 2015.
The problem is that he’s admitted on the record that he killed Joyce Yost. That fact is not in dispute.
Tactics Of Abusive Husbands: Manipulative Letters And Emails
Dave: How do you go in front of a jury and say, yes, I killed this person. But and that’s where these religious leaders came in. They went before the court and said, in all those years, Lovell is a changed man.
Anne: Listening to the manipulative letters Doug Lovell sent those religious leaders was surreal. Because they sound almost exactly like the manipulative letters that so many of the victims I talk to receive. In fact, I have actually created a workshop to show women the patterns of these types of manipulative letters. It’s in my Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
So listeners, if you want to learn more about that, click that link. I show women how abusive it is, so they can identify the abuse. And then how to respond in terms of Doug Lovell. It was very unnerving to hear that these religious leaders fell for this type of manipulation. In fact, judges fall for this type of manipulation too.
There are cases in Utah where the abusive man is in jail, but he writes manipulative and abusive letters to his kids, and the victim is court ordered to show these manipulative, abusive letters to her own children. Which to talk about Susan Powell again. I mean, she was killed, but Josh Powell, her murderer, still had parental rights.
Dave: Yeah, so let me set the table for that a little bit. Josh Powell, after his wife, “disappears” in 2009. Within a couple of weeks, he takes his two sons, Charlie and Braden, with him. He leaves Utah and goes to Washington state. And he lives under his father’s roof. A few things happen there.
Washington State Does Nothing
Dave: The West Valley City Police Department has a circumstantial case that Josh murdered his wife, and that’s getting stronger as time goes forward. What they don’t have is direct physical evidence. Like a body linking Josh to Susan’s death. And so in the absence of that, the prosecutors would not give police an arrest warrant. The police are aware that these two boys are potentially at risk.
Early in the investigation, a detective from Utah contacts the Child Protective Services Agency in Washington and says, can you intervene in any way? And the state of Washington tells the West Valley City Police Department, unless there’s an allegation of like ongoing or immediate abuse happening, that’s not our job.
Anne: I mean, the likelihood that he killed his wife is like a hundred percent. So he’s a murderer, but he’s an appropriate caregiver for children.
Dave: Right, unless he’s charged and arrested, they don’t intervene, was the position at the time.
Anne: This letter of the law is a thing, and then there’s like, how do we actually protect people? I mean, someone who kills their wife is an abuser, but they’re not defining him as an abuser.
Dave: And this was the insidiousness of Josh Powell. Josh Powell was good at cloaking abuse in a way that it didn’t look like abuse from the outside, right? I think you and I rationally can sit back and say the act of murdering his children’s mother is abuse of those children until the police can prove it. The Child Protective Services workers in Washington weren’t going to do anything about it.
Operation Tsunami & Steve Powell’s Arrest
Dave: And so the investigation for her murder is mostly here in Utah. But there’s an aspect that’s taking place in Washington, and it culminates in the latter part of 2011. Because there’s a big police operation that we learn about in Cold season one called Operation Tsunami. And part of this whole investigation is the service of a search warrant at Josh’s dad’s house in Washington.
When police go in there searching, they discover Steve Powell was obsessed with his daughter-in-law, Susan. And they find all kinds of voyeur materials focused on Susan and other women. Steve Powell had been recording women without their knowledge, and among those were two neighbor girls who were underage. Under the definition of the law, this is treated as CSAM. Steve Powell is arrested at that time for two crimes, voyeurism and CSAM.
The state of Washington says, wait a minute. These two boys, Charlie and Braden, were in that house. This is an unsafe environment for those children. So they take temporary protective custody of Charlie and Braden. So it took the investigation to that point where there was a catalyst. There was an event that took place with the discovery of those voyeuristic materials. That triggered the state of Washington to take action.
Once those boys were in temporary protective custody, that didn’t mean they were going to stay there. Josh immediately starts a campaign to get custody of his kids back. And he was actually within a step or two of clearing every hurdle that the court put in front of him and was probably going to get custody of his children back.
Identifying An Abusive Husband: Josh Powell’s Custody Battle
Dave: And then police in Utah who were under a court seal. They couldn’t talk publicly about the case, even to other police agencies. They get permission from a judge to share evidence with the state of Washington family court, they send this information up. And it’s troubling enough that the judge in Washington says, before we give Josh Powell custody of his children, we are going to require that he undergo a psyhologial evaluation.
So they’re going to do a very invasive psychological evaluation. Looking into, is there anything happening with Josh in his mind that would put the kids in danger? Now, during this period, the court allowed Josh to visit the children. At first, the visit is required in a neutral third party secure environment. But over time, he convinces the court that he’s safe. That they can allow his kids to visit him at a home he had rented. And the judge did not revisit that idea, After this major change, right?
Requiring Josh to go through this invasive psychological evaluation. And within a matter of days during a court authorized supervised visit, we know Josh locks the supervised visitation coordinator out of the house. He murders his sons, a horrific ending to this entire investigation. They definitely know that Susan knew her husband was abusing her. She knew the answer was yes.
What about Susan’s parents? What could they do in the aftermath of that horrible event? They sued the state of Washington, the agency, and the individual social workers involved in that case. The case wound through the courts for a long time, more than 10 years before it’s resolved.
Susan’s Parents Sue Washington State
Dave: The individual social workers were deemed immune because they were state employees and working on behalf of the state in that capacity. They couldn’t be held individually liable, but the agency could.
Susan’s parents ended up taking that case to trial. So a jury in Pierce County, Washington hears weeks and weeks of testimony. About all the details of the ins and outs of this back and forth with the criminal investigation with the family court in the state of Washington. Long story short, they end up giving a verdict. And they say the state of Washington was negligent in allowing the children to be in Josh Powell’s custody while he went through this process.
And they awarded Susan’s parents $100 million, give or take in damages. Of course, nothing that helps them bring the kids back. But their hope was that it would inspire some kind of change. Part of the reason we know as much as we do about what happened in the state of Washington behind the scenes is the law there. It required an inquest when Charlie and Braden were murdered in 2012. And the law also required the results of that inquest to be made public.
https://youtu.be/99iqbYMJdXo
Transparency is one part of it, but the action to say, okay, these are the things that failed. Let’s fix those, is the next step. And I think that’s where often we see agencies and individuals drop the ball. They can acknowledge that yes, a murdered child is a bad outcome. But what are you going to do about it? That’s where we often fall flat.
Current State Of Domestic Violence Services
Anne: Just recently, within the last couple months, there’s a victim. Her perpetrator has 27 protective order violations. This is in the state of Utah right now. So she reported one of these violations in Salt Lake City, and they didn’t do anything about it. So the department over that heard about it somehow, and gave her a call. Now this is a victim who’s been working with the domestic violence shelter Safe Harbor for more than three years. And she can’t even divorce this guy.
They’re still in custody court, but the department that oversees things interviewed her and did a lethality assessment. They called her back like a week later and said, we have the findings for you. You’re at a really high risk. Holy cow, this is bad. And we’ve come to the conclusion that you need services from the domestic violence shelter.
Dave: That’s it?
Anne: And she’s like, what? I’ve already been going to Safe Harbor for three years. That’s the state of domestic violence services, it’s like going around in circles. There’s how it’s supposed to work, and then there’s how it’s actually working. A lot of victims will tell you that when they tell other people that the system isn’t protecting them. People generally assume you must have done something wrong. Like maybe you didn’t fill out the right form. How else can someone prove that their husband is toxic.
Not realizing you can do everything right and still not get the help you need. It is so difficult when trying to identify if their husband is abusive. And that’s such a fine line for me as an educator. We need to give women hope that they can move toward a better life. But also be aware of all the obstacles they might face.
Journalistic Responsibility & Impact Of Educating On Abusive Husbands
Dave: And Anne, I think about this a lot, because from my perspective as a journalist, I tell these stories. Part of the reason to do it is to educate, but there’s a parasocial relationship between myself and a listener. Somebody listens to me for hours talking about these cases. And I’ve had the experience many times of somebody listening, going, oh my gosh. What he’s talking about, like this story, this is my life.
And reach out to me, and in many cases, they’re asking for just somebody to hear them. But other times they’re more specific, like, help me, you seem like an expert. You seem to know what’s going on. What do I do in this situation? And I feel so ill-equipped. I want to help. So I’ll try to connect them with domestic violence resources, and I have to ask myself, did I actually help that person? It’s so hard.
Anne: Yeah, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we have Group Sessions, and Individual Sessions, and Workshops for women to learn safety strategies. Whether they’re married or not. All of these tools can help a woman to know if her husband is abusing her. I mean, it’s my mission to ensure that they get the help they need. Speaking of abusive partners in both Season One and Season Three of the Cold Podcast, an abusive partner plays a role.
In season one it’s Josh Powell, and in season three, Chuck Warren is an abuser. He married Sheree Warren. I can say that because I can see the markers and the things that you reported. He is also a suspect, and in every single season, every single perpetrator.
Patterns Of Objectifying Women
Anne: And Chuck Warren as well, has a history or patterns of objectifying women. With Cary Hartman, there ares tons of evidence of the obscene phone calls and assaults.
Like what was going on in the eighties in Ogden, by the way. Like that was wild. I was like, holy cow. I mean, season three, there are three serial rapists in Ogden. Anyway, all the guys in seasons one, two, and three show a pattern of objectifying women. Can you talk about that?
Dave: Yeah, all of them are different in their own ways. Josh, when I started looking into his background, his youth, and his relationship with Susan. There are a lot of indicators that Josh was, in many ways, wasn’t interested in physical touch.. But Susan, his wife, would write about this. He wouldn’t hold her hand, he wouldn’t kiss her. He would always find an excuse for it, I’m gonna get sick. So he had something going on, right?
And the problem with Josh is the evidence I talked about earlier. They sent it to Washington State in the child custody proceeding. They found it on a computer in the Powell home. The belief of the investigators at the time was that it was material belonging to Josh.
What we know is Josh Powell’s father was absolutely deviant in his views toward women generally, and to Susan specifically. There was a dynamic back and forth between Josh and his dad. Josh was aware of his father’s inappropriate advances on Susan, his wife, and he did nothing to stop it.
Doug Lovell, Cary Hartman & Chuck Warren
Anne: A lack of interest in your partner is definitely a characteristic of excessive exploitative content use. This is one thing help to know if you are experiencing abuse from your husband. Because they’re masturbating all the time, and they’re not into it with a real person. So even though that is a marker, in Josh’s case, there was no evidence.
Dave: Directly for him, you can understand why the police would believe it, given what you said.
Anne: Yeah, exactly.
Dave: Season two and season three, both take place in Ogden, Utah in 1985. I find it fascinating that Doug Lovell, who first assaulted and then murdered Joyce Yost, operates at the same time. Cary Hartman, we know, is attacking women. And you’ve got Sheree divorcing Chuck Warren at the time. In a lot of ways, very similar to Susan Powell, right? There’s a custody issue going on. Chuck Warren, we later find out, was soliciting who are also victims, right?
And did Sheree know about that? Probably not, so he’s lying to her, presumably, which is a form of abuse. There was a lot of that kind of dynamic going on, and part of the reason with Sheree’s case in particular. I wanted to focus on the immediate aftermath of Sheree’s disappearance. You know, the first days, weeks, months, her estranged husband, Chuck Warren, looks like Josh Powell. He looks like a really strong suspect.
He’s not forthcoming. There are stories about him having done a horrific act of physical abuse against his first wife. Sharee’s his second wife. You can understand why law enforcement is looking at Chuck.
Finding Justice For Sheree Warren
Dave: Holy cow, this looks like all those abuse markers, and it’s the same story we’ve seen. Then all of a sudden, Cary Hartman comes into orbit over here, and you realize Sheree had this unlucky confluence of bad men in her life. If Chuck Warren was a more standup guy. If he was a better husband.
I think the investigation would’ve more quickly focused on Cary and some steps that I believe or suspect Cary took to potentially obscure his activities. Around the time that Sheree disappeared. They would’ve looked at it much sooner than 15 years later, as we see happen. I’m not somebody who likes to stand up on a soapbox and say, every man is a bad person.
Anne: Me either. We do need to help victims figure out if their husband is abusive.
Dave: But I also like to stand up and say, guys, we gotta do better than this. Even if you are not harming your wife, your partner, you probably know somebody who is. You talked about those statistics, the one in three or one in four women who will experience domestic violence in their lives.
If I can turn that around from like a man’s perspective. How many of the guys I would consider friends are at home behind closed doors doing those kinds of things? And what behaviors am I maybe seeing but choosing not to react to? Or am I just putting those blinders like we all have a role in seeing it for what it is, calling it what it is, and standing up to it.
Gratitude & Acknowledgment
Anne: Dave thank you so much for all of your hard work to bring these really important stories to light. And helping victims identify if their husband is abusive.
Dave: You’ve been a supporter and booster, if I can say that for a long time. That’s not lost on me. You’re doing the work in the trenches. I mean, what I say when I talk about how hard that is. And I just hope for your sake, that you find ways to cleanse yourself of it from time to time, because it’s so hard. So thank you for the work you do and all the women you’ve helped, honestly.
This kind of work takes a toll on you. And while I feel a strong obligation to continue building on the work done in these three seasons of this Cold podcast, I also need to watch out for my own emotional and mental health. I’m hopeful I can again, as you say, help educate people so that we don’t have to keep telling these kinds of stories.
Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous – Susan’s Story With Dave Cawley
Apr 15, 2025
If you’re searching for warning signs your husband is dangerous it’s important to know that many victims “only” experience emotional abuse until . . .
Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, talks to Dave Cawley, host of the Cold podcast series, about the Susan Powell case, empowering victims to protect themselves and seek safety now.
Many abuse victims do not have proof. They don’t have bruises or broken bones to show the world that their partner is abusing them.
Instead, their bruises and brokenness are hidden beneath the surface. They can be found in the way they doubt their own worth, in the way they feel they are responsible for their husband’s choices.
Other forms of abuse, just as serious as physical battering, include:
Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Victim-Blaming Harms
Questions and statements like:
If it was so bad, why didn’t she leave?
It takes two to tango
Why did you push his buttons?
Why don’t you work harder on making sure he’s happy?
He’s not hitting you, are you sure it’s abuse?
Even after Susan Powell’s ten year disappearance, many still blame her subtly by asking, “If it was so bad, then why did she stay?”
As Dave says, the societal focus should be on why so many men are abusing women, not why women are staying in abusive relationships.
Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Anyone Can Be A Victim
Josh Powell was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. However, even those who are not diagnosed with NPD can be narcissistic abusers. The mental and emotional toll that narcissistic abuse takes on victims is extreme. Becoming educated about narcissistic abuse. And protecting themselves through effective boundaries can help women find safety from this insidious form of abuse.
3 Tips For Seeking Safety From Abuse
Trust your gut. If it feels like something is off, it probably is. Don’t ignore that feeling.
You have more support than you realize. A lot of times, we don’t recognize how strong and wide our network is. Reach out, you might be surprised.
If you leave, you’re going to be okay. It’s scary to leave, but it’s not as scary as you probably think, once you’re on the other side.
Transcript: Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous
Anne: I recorded this interview in 2019. At a very intense time during my ex-husband’s post-separation abuse. I interviewed Dave Cawley, host of the cold podcast. And I want to give a shout out. He was so willing to listen to me back in 2019. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for using the interview to learn more about my story and other victims. I genuinely felt like he cared about me personally and that he cared for all victims.
So thank you to Dave Cawley and all men who are standing up for abuse victims.
Dave is a graduate of the University of Utah’s journalism school. And then went to work as a field reporter in Salt Lake City. Dave joined KSL. And then in 2018, he moved into a new role as executive producer of digital content. On December 14th, 2018. KSL and Dave launched the podcast series Cold.
The first season focused on the unsolved disappearance of Susan Powell. That story was close to Dave because he reported on Susan’s suspected murder from the beginning in December 2009. And continues to dig for new details. Cold reached number one on the Apple podcast chart on the day of its release.
Welcome, Dave.
Dave: Thanks, Anne. I really appreciate being on.
My Personal Connection To Susan’s Story
Anne: The story of Susan Powell broke the year after I was married. I got married in 2008. And so in 2009, when Susan first went missing, I closely followed the story. I had a sense at that time that something was wrong in my own marriage. I wouldn’t say at the time that I could comprehend what was happening, or even verbalize that my husband was abusive.
Something about Susan’s story was calling to me. On the day Josh murdered his sons and proved himself a murderer, I was at a family dinner with my parents and siblings, and also my husband. I said, out loud, “If anything happens to me. He killed me.”
I wanted to make sure he heard me say that to everyone because I thought that would help keep me safe. Six years later, in 2015, he was arrested for domestic violence. And that is what helped me understand what was happening. From your research of Susan Powell. Can you talk about how she felt at the beginning of her relationship?
Dave: Yeah, I can speak specifically to the circumstances of Josh and Susan’s marriage, because I had a unique opportunity to research and study those. Certainly, I don’t know the totality of Susan’s mind at any given point in time. All I can go on are the clues she left us, what she wrote in her journal.
What she wrote to her friends in emails, messages, things like that. That we drew in to use for the cold podcast. But I will say Susan and Josh met when Susan was barely out of high school. She was very young. And if you look at Susan at that time, she was a great student.
Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Abusive Men Want To Be The Center Of Their Wife’s Universe
Dave: She was very hardworking, going to cosmetology school easily. In my opinion, she could have walked into any of the colleges around Washington where she lived at the time. But Josh quickly, after they started dating, isolated her. And he made her life all about him and their relationship. He did it very subtly. He used the creation almost of a mythology for their relationship. That this was a very almost fated kind of thing. That they met and fell in love.
And they’re so about each other. One another when in reality, from I think an objective point of view. You can look and say, well, it was all about how she served him, not how he served her. He was not doing things in their relationship that were advancing her best interests. He wasn’t going out of his way to do things to make her happy.
But because of her age and because of, I think some of her experience dating as a teenager, when she met Josh and he talked the big talk. She kind of fell into the idea of being in love and in this relationship. They get married quickly. So within six months of beginning to date, they’re married.
And it’s pretty clear from the get go that things are not good in their relationship, because Josh can’t keep a job. And every time he loses a job, it’s the fault of the employer. It’s never his fault. Something keeps him down. And so Susan, from the beginning, has to work multiple jobs to try to make ends meet. And help Josh get in a better place where he can hold a job.
Anne: I mean, when do you notice the signs your husband might kill you?
Warning Signs Of A Dangerous Husband
Dave: They have to move in with family several times, which is not a good situation. As we later learned, her father-in-law is a very unsavory individual, to put it mildly. Then it gets more complicated when children enter the mix.
Josh and Susan move away from Washington in part to get away from Josh’s dad. And some bad things and make a fresh start. So Susan at that point, in my opinion, still doesn’t see the origin of the problems. And thinks, hey, if we just get away from Washington, if we get to Utah. And we get away from the complicated family dynamics, then Josh and I can make it work.
Anne: She still doesn’t see signs her husband might kill her. But almost no one does until it’s too late..
Dave: No sooner do they get here than it’s the same dynamic, right? Susan’s breadwinning. She can hold a job, her husband is holding her back.But they conceive their first child. And that is when Susan starts to see the problems, because Josh as a father is not helpful. That is in 2005, and then it’s a downhill slide from there for a couple of years.
After they have their second child, Brayden, Josh disconnects. And the conflict comes out into the open. Josh has been dismissive of Susan for many years. But once she starts sticking up for herself, she has things that matter to her that are of value to her in her life, her religion, and her standards.
Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Victims Need Support
Dave: And Josh is unwilling to practice those himself, but also to allow her to practice her own religion. Do things like pay her tithing, attend church with her, things like that. And he’s also actively undercutting her to the children, talking about how bad it is that mom goes to church, and how they don’t need to go to church with mom. And don’t listen to stuff mom says. Which I think any rational person in a marriage would say is not an okay dynamic.
That is when I think Susan starts recognizing that things are not good. She starts dropping hints to friends that she feels in danger, but then when other people tell her hey, you’re in a bad situation. You need to get out of here. She will justify why she’s staying in.
Anne: Well, having been in that situation myself. It’s really a situation where you have two bad options. Staying in the marriage is bad, and divorce will also be bad. You’re trying to figure out which bad scenario is the least bad one. I was struck in the podcast. Susan did what she was supposed to do as a victim of abuse.
She reached out for help. But clergy told her that if you both work on your issues, this can be worked out. She wasn’t told her husband is dangerous. Since we have over 150,000 women in our community. I hear women report this all the time. Instead of recognizing his abuse they get their abusive husband into therapy or they’re told to go to couple therapy. Can you talk more about what happened when Susan went for help?
Dave: That’s tough. Let me speak to some of the circumstances with Josh and Susan and counseling, and we’ll get there.
Clergy & Counseling Didn’t Keep Her Safe
Dave: Because conversations with clergy are confidential. We’re pretty limited in knowing exactly what kind of advice Josh and Susan received. But Susan did write in a couple of places about going to see her bishop, both with Josh and on her own. You can imagine this is a marriage at a very low point.
They’re at each other’s throats. And yeah, Susan is argumentative. I mean, she’s not one to passively just go with the flow. So when she’s unhappy, she’s venting about it. Josh points at her as she’s the one causing all this conflict.
Anne: What she’s “complaining about,” and I have that in air quotes, is his abuse.
Dave: Right.
Anne: Right.
Dave: She’s not identified it as such at this point, right?
Anne: He’s basically saying, I’m mad at her for being mad at me about my abuse.
Dave: Right, in so many words, yeah.
Anne: Yeah.
Dave: Every indication I have is that the clergy they spoke to said. “We are not qualified to be your marriage counselor, so let’s connect you with services.”
So that’s how Susan originally gets involved with marriage counseling. It’s 2008, and Josh refuses to go. The counselor she was talking to in 2008 identified and said you are being abused.
Anne: Oh, okay.
Dave: And this is when Susan first understood that because her dad was in town and actually went to the session with her. Chuck Cox, Susan’s dad, talks about how afterwards she turned to him and said, Do you think that’s true? Am I being abused? And her dad’s going, yes.
Anne: Yes, but she doesn’t see signs that her husband may harm her.
Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous You: Explicit Content
Dave: I think too, Anne, what happens is specifically in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You have lay clergy, and oftentimes, especially at the local level, these people are your neighbors. It can feel very close, I think even for some of those members of clergy. To be in the business of the personal lives of their neighbors, and that’s uncomfortable.
And I don’t want to say there’s not accountability in the same way that maybe a professional clergy. But it’s a little different in that religious community. Just because of the way those relationships exist. Sometimes between the people approaching, a bishop or stake president, or something like that, as opposed to other faiths.
Anne: Yeah, and many times clergy, rather than tell the victim, this is an abuse situation, your husband is dangerous, you need to get to safety. They focus on helping him. Like to reactivate someone into the church or to repent. But they don’t realize it’s keeping a victim in proximity to the abuse.
I listened to the cold podcast, and surprisingly how pornography played such a large role in developing Josh’s character. Can you talk about the role that it played in his abuse before the murder?
Dave: Yeah, this is a very interesting topic for discussion, because we have a pretty good record thanks to the divorce filings for Josh’s parents going back into the mid 90s. So Josh is a teenager, and his mom divorces his dad. In part because Josh’s dad did a lot of things that were not good. There’s some pretty good indication in those filings, that he introduced his kids to explicit content when they were young, both sons and daughters.
Josh Powell’s Secret Double Life
Dave: Because of that, we know Josh was exposed to explicit material at an early age. We know Josh was actually, by his own disclosure later to a psychologist. He is arrested at one point for stealing explicit magazines from a convenience store. You see early on that this is part of his life. It’s not until after Susan disappears, and police seize computers out of their home. And those computers are scoured for evidence, we see what happened in the meantime.
She wanted to get on the internet and Facebook and things like that. He would not allow her to do that on his computer. She had to have her own computer, which he was unwilling to pay for. So that protective behavior, I think, personally speaks to Josh knowing that there’s material on this computer that he does not want her to find.
I know there are people in law enforcement who believe the catalyst for Susan’s disappearance and murder may have been her locating something like that, calling Josh’s attention to it. And saying this is a step too far. We’re done. That’s speculation, but I think Josh’s viewing of it played a role, especially because Susan writes a lot about how he wouldn’t touch her.
Anne: This abuse and secret explicit materials use might be signs your husband is dangerous.
Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us To Pay Attention To Our Gut
Dave: He wouldn’t show the normal types of affection that you would expect in a relationship like that. He would not hold her hand. He wouldn’t kiss her. When they were physically intimate, which was rare, he did not view it as beautiful and shared. It was very clinical. I’m trying not to be too graphic here.
I want to be careful to protect Susan’s privacy. When they had intercourse, it was not something that was a beautiful and affirming experience for Susan. It was almost, I think, traumatic in itself because of the way he insisted on it being very quick and clean and then over.
Anne: Women in our community assume their husbands are not viewing explicit material because they attend the temple or go to church. Because they’re under the impression that the relationship is a certain way, and they’re not being given all the information they need to make a decision. Interesting, so that form of coercion is, I would say, the most common. But it’s still coercion.
I don’t think explicit material users understand that in and of itself is a form of abuse. Just thinking about Susan, how would she feel about this? Didn’t enter Josh’s mind.
Dave: No.
Anne: He wasn’t concerned about Susan at all. All of these are red flags that her husband might kill her.
Dave: Not in the least, yeah. Continuing through their marriage, Josh and Susan moved from Washington to Utah to escape Steve Powell. But Steve Powell continues to groom his son well into adulthood through these long phone conversations. Steve Powell was dysfunctional in his views on intimacy. He wrote more than 2, 000 pages of explicit journals detailing his desire for his daughter-in-law, Susan.
Signs Your Husband Might Harm You: Emotional Abuse
Dave: And so he is interested in poisoning his son’s marriage on the belief that it will allow him to spark his relationship with Susan. Which was never going to happen. Right, but because of that, Josh is being fed this constant stream of negativity. If you look at some of Josh’s writings, going back even into his teenage years, he struggled. Even dating, before he met Susan, with being close. Just being in physical proximity to a girl or a woman, made him uncomfortable.
And when he takes that dysfunction into his marriage with Susan, it’s Susan’s fault. Because he tells his dad, Susan wants it all the time. By the time their marriage really bottoms out, they are maybe having intercourse a couple of times a year, if that.
And so you can imagine, Susan feels as a 27 year old woman, a 28 year old woman, unfulfilled. By a husband who will show her no care in daily life, no care in the bedroom. Seems repulsed by the thought of giving her a kiss or holding her hand.
And going back to your earlier point about not recognizing it as abuse. Yeah, abuse carries a lot of connotation in our society. We expect it to be hitting, to be shouting, you know, slamming of doors. Well, I think it’s arguable that if you are in a relationship with somebody and you are withholding and playing these kinds of mind games, that is a form of abuse. And unless we can call it such, we can’t address it.
Abusers “Turn Tables” To Play The Victim Role
Anne: Yeah, right before my ex’s arrest, he started telling me that I was unattractive. And that he never thought I was attractive, and that he hated me. I was like, whoa. And he would say, I don’t love you, but I love the kids. So finally I was like, well, then you should leave.
Dave: Yeah.
Anne: And then he wouldn’t leave. And I was like, okay, this is weird. You think I’m ugly, you don’t want to have intercourse with me. and you hate me, but you won’t leave? It was so nonsensical. It was insane. All right, so we’ve talked about the psychological abuse Susan endured. We’ve talked about how she didn’t recognize it, I didn’t recognize the signs that my husband may harm me either.
I want to talk about Josh’s behavior after the murder. It’s like many abusers after divorce. They blame their situation on their victim. They continue to lie, hide and manipulate people. And in Josh’s case, he had this huge crime, and all these people looking at him and reporters trying to get to the truth.
In my case, nobody’s been trying to investigate. My ex is still an attorney, he’s still doing his job, and he’s still lying about me. So, his current congregation thinks he’s this amazing saint, and his crazy ex-wife has done him wrong. and they feel so bad that he’s this victim.
So even in this case with Josh Powell, where there’s a murder and someone is missing, and all these police are investigating. You’ve got all these reporters, and Josh is still walking around. Lightning didn’t strike him, a bus didn’t hit him, he’s not in jail. He’s got his kids. He’s still functioning.
Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Abusers Reject Accountability
Anne: I mean, he’s not well, obviously. But he’s still free. Why do you think society is so bad at holding these guys accountable? Even though there are he is dangerous.
Dave: I think, in a legal sense, and especially in the United States here, we have this concept of innocent until proven guilty. That is important to remember when we’re talking about someone being accused of something criminally. But a marriage is a civil contract, not criminal. So you are married to somebody who is abusing you. You seek a divorce, and through the divorce.
The mind games that manipulative men, in particular, can work that system to their advantage. Or to try to hurt or undercut their former spouse. It doesn’t rise to that criminal level. I think many people in broader society don’t want to feel like they are passing a judgment on somebody without proof or evidence.
The very nature of this kind of abuse, that manipulation, that financial control, that emotional abuse, is that there is no trail of evidence. And even if you could take it to a police officer or prosecutor, they would say, well, what is the crime? There’s nothing in criminal statute that this violates. So that person is able to go back into society and say, well, look, I’m a good guy. I didn’t do anything wrong.
Anne: I’m the victim. My ex says, “She kicked me out of the house for no reason. And then she wouldn’t talk to me.” He doesn’t say, because I sprained her fingers and had a no contact order from the courts. He doesn’t tell people that part.
Dave: We need to, in a cultural sense, in the broadest way possible, confront our own perceptions on abuse. And start retraining ourselves.
Signs A Husband May Kill: People Don’t Believe You
Dave: Me telling the Susan Powell story resulted in more people than I can even tell you reaching out to share their own personal experiences. Even talking to you here, Anne, about your relationship, I think, is in a similar vein. Many women are dealing with this right now. And have never found someone who they felt safe, being very candid about what they’ve gone through.
And I think many of us hold these personal experiences close. We don’t share them. There’s shame attached to it. There’s fear of not being believed. What I personally learned was that when people are willing to share those stories with me. When women say, hey, your podcast sounded like my life.
The most important thing I can do is express belief and empathy. And say, I’m so grateful that you’re safe. I’m sorry, you have gone through or are going through this horrible circumstance. I believe you. And that opens conversation. I strongly feel that is the path forward. In trying to address why abusive men can just walk away cleanly. And say, “Well, hey, I did nothing wrong.”
https://youtu.be/agzTN-9Qpd0
Anne: Or, “You know, it didn’t work out somewhere. It just doesn’t work out.” People just dismiss it even though there may be signs her husband might harm her. That’s why I created this community to be that safe place. Because other places are like, oh, all guys use it. Why are you so worried about it? So here, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are all about safety, safety, and more safety. We will help you figure out what is going on.
And we recommend you get to safety quickly. While you don’t know what’s going on. And then, from a safe place, you can objectively observe and find out what’s happening.
He Manipulated Her
Anne: I get the impression that Susan didn’t know about the explicit content use until the very end. Was there any indication that she knew about it early on?
Dave: I doubt she did. I mean, like I mentioned, there is speculation by some in law enforcement that maybe she discovered something and that was a catalyst. I’m under the impression that Susan had no clue Josh was viewing explicit materials.
Anne: I’ve always wondered why reporters don’t include the alleged perpetrators pornography use when reporting crime or murder. If it was a factor? I think that would highlight how it is an element of domestic abuse. And to watch for signs the signs he might kill you.
Dave: And to the point about why do you not hear it reported, it’s a difficult spot. Especially early in reporting, we often work from a limited amount of information. The Powell case is unique in that in putting together the cold podcast, we had access to a lot of information that was not available to us when Susan first disappeared.
Material gained through search warrants and subpoenas, and things like that. So, when I sat down to tell Susan’s story, I was more informed than I think many of us were at the time she disappeared. About what was going on behind the scenes. Say somebody came forward and said, yeah, you know, Josh goes on the internet and looks at explicit material.
You need a nexus that ties it together. And without all the context of Josh’s journals and Susan’s journals, and all the stuff with these recordings, it’s difficult to put that together in a way where you see the broader context.
Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Your Husband’s Secrets Can Kill You
Dave: So I’m grateful that with the rise of podcasting and some of this longer form of investigative reporting. We’re better able to make those associations clear than you’ll ever see on the 10 o’clock news. Think when you look at Josh as somebody who’s leading a double life, he clearly did not ever allow Susan to see his true self.
Josh was a narcissist, and I say that in the sense of a psychologist actually said you have narcissistic personality disorder. He created a persona. The persona of Josh as a young man, and the older he grew, the more solidified that persona became. And the inner core, the true identity of Josh Powell, was not something that anybody ever would touch because of that outer shell. Especially his wife. And so, yes, he will never concede to her that he’s viewing it.
That he’s taking all these steps. Which, in my opinion, were preparatory for killing her and cashing in on her life insurance. Others around her were not interpreting warning signs he might use lethal violence. The exterior was about, he’s the expert at everything. Nobody’s smarter than me. My kids are the best kids and can do no wrong, because they’re extensions of me.
It’s a very interesting thing, I think, with men who are abusive in this way. It’s one of the signs he might do something drastic. That they, you know, similarly tend to show some of these narcissistic traits where they have this secret life. They protect that secret life to the exclusion of everything else. And I think part of what creates this danger, right, is the idea that when you are exposed, when say a spouse discovers this, now this will collapse that entire world.
If He Protects His Secrets, It’s a Sign He May Kill You
Dave: And as a man exhibiting this kind of narcissism, when you face that reality of your world collapsing. I’ll just make this person who discovered it, who sees the real me, go away. I think that’s part of why we see violence, and especially homicide, come into play in those moments.
Anne: Yeah, I think so too. I discovered my husband’s use 18 months after we had married in the temple, and he had promised me he didn’t use explicit material, so he had been lying to me and manipulating me the whole time. That’s when I got really scared because that’s a sign of something very serious.
I think it’s interesting that he went into “recovery”. And when I say that, I mean in quotes. He became like the model addict in recovery. And we were actually public speaking about his amazing recovery, and I didn’t know that he was still lying and manipulating me. I thought I knew how to deal with an addict husband. So near the end, I was like, this is a sham.
You are a fake and not in recovery. You haven’t been, and you’re speaking to people as if you are. And that is when the violence escalated. Escalating violent is a sign he might harm you. I was like, I’m not speaking with you anymore, and quit my job. I was the PR director of a popular addiction recovery practice. And so I quit my job and I was like, no, I am done.
In the addiction recovery space, which you may or may not be familiar with. When someone enters recovery, everything in that family becomes about him and his recovery. Let’s make sure he’s okay. Let’s treat him like he has cancer. I believe that’s actually a continuation of the abuse.
If He Has No Empathy, That’s A Red Flag
Anne: I think they should say, okay, she’s a victim of abuse here. She’s been a victim of abuse for 10 years when she didn’t know about his use. Now we know that explicit materials use is a sign that he may use violence against women, because that’s all it is these days. Let’s treat her like she has cancer, and let’s make sure she’s safe. And then let’s wait at a safe distance to see if he is a safe person to be around.
That’s not what happens right now. When a couple goes into clergy and says he’s using they’re like, oh, okay. Well, wife, you support him, be supportive. And I’m like, what? No, no, no. That should never happen, because you don’t know what else is going on. Like get her to safety. I mean, I can’t tell you how many women spend tons of time reading books about addiction. How can I support him?
How can I make sure I don’t shame him in and on and on? And he’s like, Great. It’s all about me. The relationship’s all about me. Meanwhile, she can’t live a life, because the whole life is about him and his addiction. They have to adjust everything to fit this new reality, and it’s, as you can tell, really making me mad.
Susan’s Story Teaches Us That Therapy Does Not Stop Abuse & Manipulation
Dave: With Susan and Josh, he is unwilling to go when Susan is in therapy. Susan writes repeatedly that she hopes that if she goes, and he sees it improves her. He will then be willing to go. I want to go back in time and sit down with Susan and say, Susan, you do not understand the way your husband’s brain works, that is never going to happen.
The only time he ever goes to therapy is when she confronts him with, I’m leaving. Susan is the meal ticket and is doing child care, bread winning, and taking care of the house. If Susan leaves, Josh will have to work. He’ll also have to explain why his wife left, right?
He reluctantly goes along, does the minimum necessary in that situation to keep her on the hook. The idea of being supportive of your husband, you’re working together, he’s going to see how it improves me. Josh has no interest in improving. And I think many of these men who are psychologically abusing their spouses, who are violating that trust, are not interested in self improvement for self improvement’s sake.
Anne: When people say, well, he’s going to therapy, I’m like, but why is he going to therapy? Like, is it because he genuinely wants to change? From your podcast, we can see why it was difficult for the law to stop Josh Powell, who was under investigation for murder. Because they were trying to gather evidence. So what hope do victims like me and my community have of getting help when it’s “just emotional abuse.” I mean, it’s so scary that they’re not seeing how dangerous he is.
Anne: What would you say to Susan before the murder? Let’s say five years before.
Why Did She Stay? The Focus Should Be, Why Do Men Abuse Wives?
Dave: Susan dealt with a lot, I think, of self doubt. She knew something was wrong in her marriage, and took steps to begin extricating and protecting herself. And in my opinion, there is no clear answer why she stayed in that relationship. I hear that a lot, right? Why did she stay? Which in my opinion is the wrong focus. It should be on why do we have an abusive man perpetrating on his wife?
But for the sake of argument, if we take this question of why Susan did stay, many people want to blame the church. People that maybe aren’t from the community, or even who are, who say, well, clearly she was deluded by her religion. You have other people who want to blame it on X, Y, Z. The truth is, I think there are many influences in any of these situations. Susan feels some fear because Josh has made, I think, some threats to her in probably some very subtle ways, right?
She expresses a fear that I’m riding my bike to work on 5600 West in West Valley City, this busy road, and how easy would it be to have an “accident?” When her father-in-law writes in his journal that Josh has mentioned, boy, he sure wishes a car would get hit Susan. So, I’m looking at that saying, yeah, he’s probably told her as much, right? I wish a truck would just hit her. And she’s thinking, oh my gosh, my husband wants me dead.
So you have fear. Fear is definitely not a good sign. Susan goes to the temple and prays about it. And she has a feeling that she needs to stay. So you have all these contrary forces, emotions.
If You Think Your Husband Could Kill You, Trust Your Gut
Dave: What I would tell Susan is, A, trust your gut. Clearly, you were concerned enough to feel a fear, and then you basically talked yourself out of it. Second, you have more support than you realize. Susan had a network of friends and family who we see after she disappears, catalyze and become this amazing force to advocate for her and her story. And they’re still doing that now, 10 years later. That’s to me amazing. And I don’t think she recognized how strong her support network was.
The other thing I would tell her is, Susan, if you leave, you’re gonna be okay. Because, living with somebody who, year after year, undercuts you. And robs you of your positive self image, who makes you feel like dirt, like you’re unlovable. Makes the idea of going out into the world by yourself with your two children and trying to support yourself.
I have the benefit of looking at Susan from outside of that relationship and seeing somebody who is incredibly hard working, who is bright, who loves her boys. Who has plenty of admirers, who has many friends, who makes friends easily, right?
And even for somebody who doesn’t have all those things, it’s scary to leave and take that step. But it’s also not as scary as you probably think, once you are on the other side. Like, Susan would have been okay as long as she was safe from Josh. There were signs he might kill her, but no body educated her about them. So going back to your point, get to safety, do whatever it takes to get to safety. And then start rebuilding your life, and you’ll be okay.
Susan’s Story Opened My Eyes To Potential Violence
Dave: But seeing the impact that Susan’s story has had opened my eyes in a big way. Even today, having this conversation with you, Anne, is a continuation of that process. It’s a matter of learning and forcing the uncomfortable. And that’s my biggest takeaway. Honestly, I think seeing that abusive relationship in very close detail is, at its core, a lack of empathy on Josh’s part, not showing what I would consider a human care for another person’s well-being.
Anne: Yeah, there’s a lot that goes into this whole topic of misogyny, believing women and the Me Too movement. All these other factors that came about after the Me Too movement happened, after Susan’s disappearance. Then what are signs your husband might hill you?
Dave: And it’s not political. I think Me Too gets a little politicized. And people start wanting to say well, you know, but not all guys, and it’s like no no, no. Let’s not do that. Let’s focus on believing and showing empathy for people in bad situations who need help. That’s all.
Anne: Yeah, your podcast was amazing. It was gripping. If you have not yet listened, it is called Cold. If you have not heard it, I would highly recommend it. It is excellent.
Thank you so much for your time, Dave. We appreciate you being here.
Dave: Thanks, Anne.
How To Protect Yourself Financially If Your Marriage Is Struggling
Apr 08, 2025
It’s shocking how common financial abuse in divorce is. Here are the best ways to protect yourself. Divorce is hard. If you’ve been married to a narcissistic abuser, it can feel even more impossible to break free. These individuals often don’t stop their controlling behavior after a divorce is filed. Instead, they escalate their attempts to assert power.
One of the most common—and devastating—ways narcissistic abusers do this is through financial abuse. If you’re a woman divorcing a narcissist, it’s vital to understand how financial abuse works and how to protect yourself. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
What Is Financial Abuse in Divorce?
Financial abuse is an abuser’s way of gaining and maintaining power by controlling access to money and resources. During a divorce, this often includes tactics like withholding financial support, hiding assets, or intentionally complicating legal and financial processes. To wreak havoc on their victim’s stability. The abuse doesn’t necessarily stop after divorce—it can take on new, cruel forms, keeping victims entangled in elaborate schemes long after ties should have been cut.
Why Do Narcissists Use Financial Abuse In Divorce?
Narcissistic abusers are motivated by control. They want to undermine your autonomy, manipulate your decisions, and make you dependent on them.
Anne Blythe, the founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, explains it clearly, “Narcissistic abusers are very calculated. They control where, when, and how they show their true colors. At home, they ‘lose their temper.’ Outside of it, they maintain a polished, socially acceptable image. Financial abuse is yet another method for them to assert power at your expense.”
When you understand that financial abuse stems from their need for control—not because of your mistakes or shortcomings—you’re better equipped to set boundaries and protect your well-being.
Financial Abuse In Divorce Tactics
Financial abuse takes many forms. These are some of the most common examples of what narcissists might do to use financial abuse in divorce proceedings to maintain control over your life:
1. Hiding Income or Assets
An abuser may attempt to conceal money, savings accounts, or investments to make it appear as though they have less than they do. This could limit the entitled financial settlement.
One victim shared, “He told us he was so poor that our church had to pay his mortgage and car payment—almost $2,000 a month. But when my lawyer looked at his financial records, we found out the truth. He spent thousands of dollars on alcohol and other bad stuff, and even putting a lot of money into his retirement account while pretending he had no money.”
2. Cancelling Credit Cards or Withholding Financial Support
It’s not uncommon for abusers to cancel shared credit cards or refuse to pay child or spousal support during the divorce process, leaving victims unable to meet daily expenses.
3. Overwhelming With Legal Delays
Dragging out divorce proceedings is another method of control. By filing unnecessary motions, refusing to negotiate, or missing deadlines, abusers increase costs and prolong the emotional strain to maintain dominance.
4. Sabotaging Employment
Some women report that abusers interfere with their ability to work—such as creating emotional stress, harassing them at work, or withholding child care arrangements—to keep them dependent on the abuser’s finances.
The abuser uses these tactics to exhaust you, and designed to make you feel stuck. The good news? You can overcome them.
5. Manipulating Child Visitation
They might withhold child support payments or use visitation schedules to intentionally disrupt your financial planning.
What It Feels Like
Post-divorce financial abuse can feel relentless. Another victim of financial abuse after divorce said. “For over two years, I dealt with him purposefully withholding child support and blocking me from accessing what the court decided was mine.”
How To Protect Yourself From Financial Abuse
Protecting yourself from financial abuse requires awareness, preparation, and boundaries. Here are the most effective actions to take:
Work With a Trusted Family Lawyer: Hire an experienced lawyer who understands financial abuse. They can help you subpoena records like bank statements and tax returns, ensuring hidden assets don’t slip through the cracks. Discuss protective measures like restraining orders, mediation, or legally established limits with your divorce attorney. These can stop further harassment or financial tampering.
Collect and Organize Financial Documentation: Gather everything—pay stubs, credit card statements, bank records, tax returns, and more. Keep copies in a secure, private location or store them digitally for easy access.
Open Individual Accounts: Set up a personal checking and savings account in your name. Immediately update your paycheck direct deposits and remove your abuser’s access to shared accounts.
Seek Expert Emotional Support: You don’t have to go through this alone. There are resources, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast or group sessions, where women who’ve faced similar challenges can offer advice and emotional support.
Finding Empowerment & Healing from Financial Abuse During Divorce
Financial abuse is one of the hardest forms of abuse to endure, especially during something as emotional as divorce. However, with the right tools, planning, and support, you can rise above it. Remember, what they do says a lot about them—and nothing about you. Focus on building your own emotional and financial security, so you can live free from their control.
Transcript: Financial Abuse in Divorce: How To Protect Yourself
I have Brenda on today’s episode. She’s going to share her expertise as a financial advisor about financial abuse in divorce. Welcome, Brenda.
Brenda: Hello, Anne. It’s really good to be here
Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today. Let’s talk about finances.
Brenda: Because everyone is always so excited to talk about finances, right?
Anne: One of the things I want to ask victims is, if you had a billion dollars, would you stay married to him? And the answer is usually no. They’re so afraid because they’re trapped. They don’t know how they’re going to take care of their kids, and they don’t want to work. They didn’t sign up for that.
Sometimes they do work, but figuring out how I support a family by myself is so overwhelming. What are the best ways to take financial stuff off the table, so women can make decisions based on their safety, not finances?
Brenda: I love your question about if you had a billion dollars. I think that’s very clarifying.
Gathering Financial Information
Brenda: And that gives an indication of, are they staying in that space, relationship or marriage because they hope things will change? Or is it simplified? Is it solely financial? And then if the answer to the billion dollar question is no, I would not stay here. I would want out. Information is power. So that’s where you start gathering information. And oftentimes, an individual who does leave an abusive relationship might have the means, they might be protected.
They might be okay financially. But someone keeps them in the dark, perhaps about their financial situation.So they might not have the financial records, they might not know what their spouse makes. They might be on an allowance. If you don’t have financial information about your family. Or if your family’s financial situation is in shape. It’s hard to know. You’re just in a space of fear because it’s unknown. Will you face financial abuse in divorce?
So the first thing is to become knowledgeable, if you can, about your true financial situation. Sometimes it can be overt. They could talk to their spouse about needing access. And depending on whom they’re dealing with, they might get it. Or, if they don’t have any access, then it becomes, let’s call it a treasure hunt. Where you’re picking up bits and pieces of the financial picture to try to understand what your options are, what your situation is.
The other piece of that, if you’re considering leaving and if leaving means divorce, is to get smart about what the rules are in your area. I’ve heard it said there are like 33 hundred counties in the United States, something like that. Don’t quote me on the exact number.
Financial Abuse In Divorce: The Importance of Financial Knowledge
Brenda: And there are just as many ways to be divorced. So rules vary state by state rules and rights. They vary from municipality to municipality. That at least gives people grounding or information data to start figuring out, you know, would they be okay?
Anne: In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, we have a section about finances, and Living Free is not about getting divorced. It’s about seeing reality. In the beginning, when women got to that part, they were like, does she want me to get divorced? And the answer is not yes or no. I’m not trying to push anybody in any direction, but I want them safe. And financial safety is such a huge part of this puzzle.
In Living Free, when people talk about physical abuse, many people who listen to this podcast are not necessarily physically assaulted. They’re not being punched, they don’t have bruises. They’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, it’s difficult to see. I want people to start to think about the threats of not having a home, not putting food on the table, not having a roof over your head, not being able to pay for gas to get around, that is a physical threat. This is why getting to physical safety is part of deliverance from abuse.
Brenda: Sure. It’s your basic fundamental human needs.
Anne: Exactly, so if they’re threatening, if you divorce me. Then you’ll never be able to take care of yourself. There will be financial abuse in divorce. Are you thinking that in your mind is a physical threat? It’s extremely physical, and I see it as physical abuse. So think, is this threat of physical harm the thing that keeps me from getting to safety?
Steps To Financial Safety
Anne: Being educated about your finances and what you need is one step toward not just financial safety, but also physical safety. Because if you know you can take care of yourself, that is such a relief. Even if I never got any money from him, I could keep a roof over my head, pay my bills and buy food. That sort of thing.
Brenda: And it lets people figure out what other information they need and what decisions they need to make. If baseline is, oh, I could… Everyone is different. I could go back to work. In our area. There are programs that help women in abusive situations retrain and get to a living wage. Is that available near you?
Do you have enough assets that you have every right to take? Every situation will be different. But unless you have the information, you can’t figure out what your next steps are.
Anne: When you said talk to him, that made me nervous, because I was like, whoa. You might tip him off, and then he might start hiding money, which is financial abuse in divorce. And he might start manipulating you. So aside from talking to him, what tips do you have for how they can start to find information about their finances?
Brenda: I’m just going to backtrack to talking to him for a minute. Yes, it could. And everyone knows their relationship and situation better than anyone else. I have had people who will get the information, and they do use a ruse. It will be, I need it to sign Susie up for soccer, or I want to go to this workshop with my sister, and learn how to understand taxes. Can I have our tax return?
The Role Of Credit Reports
Brenda: So it might not be overt, and they still have access to the information. I would say anywhere you can get it. If you can get logins, yes, then you can go online. However, there are flags there, because if you log into the bank account, that bank account or credit card might register the login.
They might be set so that there’s an alert. Someone logged into your account at 2:24 this afternoon. You got to be aware that that’s out there too. If. You are in such a situation where you’re cut off from all of that information. So it just as asking someone directly could present danger, know that logging into things could as well.
Anne: That is a good point, I hadn’t thought of that. I like the ruse idea, that, hey, I’m going to be logging into this thing, can I have the login? Because I’m doing blah blah blah, that is a reason not related to him. Not like, you seem like you’re an abuser. I’m considering leaving you, and I don’t want to experience financial abuse in divorce. Can I have the login? It’s probably the worst idea, I think
Brenda: You’re exposing yourself. So unfortunately, as you and your listeners all know, you’re walking a fine line, and they’re in a precarious situation, but they also usually know. I know from my own experience, I would often know the things that were going to, like tee up an issue, explosion or anger. Sometimes you don’t. And sometimes that’s another problem, right? It’s out of the blue.
Financial Abuse In Divorce: Facing Realities
Brenda: Hey, I just put cheese on that sandwich. I didn’t think it was going to. …cause World War III.
Anne: They get unpredictable when they feel like they don’t have control. And so that’s why I’m concerned about like, so many women have told me, oh, he’ll never do that. Never underestimate how much your narcissist ex doesn’t want to leave you alone. So many of our clients here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they’re like, oh, I’m getting divorced, but I’ve got it all ready to go. It’s going to go well. He told me he’ll always take care of me.
And then, like a hundred percent of the time, it does not. They experience financial abuse in divorce. And it goes the way he manipulated her to think it’s going to go, it always goes sideways.
Brenda: And the system is built for that. People often going through divorce think, I will be heard, finally. The system will protect me. I trust the system to do its job. It’s not going to. We don’t even know what the job is half the time. If you get all the way to trial, the decisions are being made by a judge who might be late for a dentist appointment.
They’re paying half or no attention to your story. And then they’re going to rule. You can’t trust the system, you can know the rules. You can try to figure out what is your bottom line? What’s your worst case scenario? Where are you protected? Where are you exposed? But circling back to like where you can get the information.
Becoming Your Own Investigator
Brenda: You turn yourself into a little sleuth. So your own little private investigator, do you get the mail when the mail comes in? Do bills come? You can order a credit report, and you can do that separately. So at least, you know what credit cards exist, and how long they’ve existed. That’s another way that sometimes exposes hidden debts or hidden money.
It depends on your situation in your household and where the safe conversations are. And a lot of that is, I would say, catering to the abuser.
Anne: I would say strategically talking to him rather than catering, but yes.
Brenda: Yes, so you’re figuring out. What is the information you’re looking for? How can you get it? What is a viable reason for having it that isn’t going to create a situation that’s going to make life more difficult for you? And worsen financial abuse in divorce.
Anne: Getting a credit report. That’s a good idea, because then you can see the stuff that he’s pulled. Can he have his own separate credit report that she can’t see some stuff on?
Brenda: Yes.
Anne: Okay, so she wouldn’t be able to see like a credit card that he applied for all by himself.
Brenda: Depending on the information she has, she might order a credit report for him.
Anne: Oh, if she knows his information, she could order it.
Brenda: And the question you ask is what’s the bounce back? Is he going to be alerted that there was a credit pool, but you can find that out before you do it, rather than be surprised after. So it’s just a question to ask.
Anne: Yeah.
Overcoming Overwhelm
Anne: What I have found with victims is that the whole situation is so overwhelming. Trying to make decisions, trying to figure out what to do, is so overwhelming. It feels like you’ve got problem after problem, after problem just piled on top of you. That’s why figuring out how long it will take to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse is impossible. And there’s no way to get out from under it. Talking about maybe just doing one thing today to try to reduce the overwhelm when it comes to finances, any ideas there so that it’s not so overwhelming?
Brenda: So are you asking in the case of someone who plans to leave the relationship?
Anne: No, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we only talk about safety. So just so that you are financially safe, so that you feel financially safe. And also so that you know how much money you would need if he divorced you, for example. So this physical and financial safety, what I’m talking about, is just being. educated about your financial situation. How much your house payment is, how much houses cost in your area, how much you could make if you got a job at the library.
You know, just basic information. I feel like information leads to emotional, financial, and physical safety when it comes to like, how much do I need to have a roof over my head? And I think regardless of what path you take to safety, you need to know this. There may be financial abuse in divorce.
Brenda: You’re looking at four major categories. What you have, what you spend, what you owe and what you earn. And anytime you start accumulating that information, it’s also future casting, right? You can then picture yourself perhaps in a different situation or safer situation, because you’ve got a little bit of that information.
Financial Abuse In Divorce: Building A Secure Future
Brenda: What can you earn, like you said, what can you earn working at the library? Were you working, and maybe you were a teacher, and your credentials are out of date? What would it take to get those back? So you can be hired. Are schools in the area hiring? Is that something you would want to go back to? So it’s all building information. So you can be more prepared if there is financial abuse in divorce.
That would be in the what you earn category. What it takes to live? You can get online, or if the newspaper still exists in your area, get a newspaper. What does an apartment cost? Do you need a car? What would that cost? Do you currently have one? Just starting to put together the pieces of what would it take for you to be secure food, shelter, clothing?
Is that available to you? What are your options there? Every little bit of additional information you can gather is more than you had before. And hopefully both empowering and putting you in a safer place, just because you are then more informed.
Anne: You saying that reminds me of this class I had in high school. In high school, we were paired up with a partner. Mine, his name was Tony. I remember this well. And then we drew little slips of paper for, like, your job. Different things about you and you pulled them out. That was your scenario. I was paired up with Tony because he had a car and I didn’t, and we were to go out and find an apartment. that we could afford and buy groceries and figure it all out.
High School Class About Finances & Gathering Information
Anne: So we would drive around, and that was so helpful. I was like, whoa, it was at that time that I personally decided to go to college. Because I had a job at the time, and I knew there was no way I could afford this apartment on the job I currently have that I do after school. And it helped me put two and two together as a teenager.
But then I’m thinking about the divorce coaching clients we have at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because many of our coaches are certified divorce coaches. And I remember one of them was talking about one of our clients, who she thought I could never do this. I can never do that. But once they went through all the financial stuff, she realized that all she needed was an extra thousand dollars a month. That was it.
Then when she figured that out, she thought, Oh, I can easily get a job that earns me a thousand dollars a month. And I’d still afford my house. And once she had that information, she could move forward on the path she thought was the safest for her. Getting this information is so helpful. And especially if you don’t know what you want to decide, I think getting the information will help you make that decision.
Brenda: When their faces light up and they’re like, Oh, I can do this. I’m going to be okay. And sometimes at first blush, the first pass at looking at what it’s going to cost might not be okay, but at least then they know what it’s going to take. Maybe we can’t be in safety right now, but this is what it will take me to get there.
Personal Financial Realizations
Anne: You’ve had personal experience with this. Can you talk about how these issues came into play with your own personal experience? How did infidelity or financial abuse affect you in divorce?
Brenda: As I went through years and years of my relationship, it became more abusive and more covert. And when I look back now, I can say, Oh my goodness, what was I thinking? Who was that person? And there’s a lot of shame. There’s a lot of guilt. There’s a lot of baggage in the things that became okay over the years. And I didn’t see it until I was away from it. I knew in my heart that it was not okay to be screamed at in the street because of some small thing, right.
And called names, and repeatedly verbally abused. But it happened so gradually over time. That it was just my normal. It was what I was used to. And it took starting to step away from the relationship to look back and reframe and see how bad things were. There were times when my husband literally asked other women out in front of me, and then gaslit me. Like, oh no, it didn’t happen that way. You’re making a big deal out of it.
https://youtu.be/F1AfegOLcU4
She’s just a business connection or whatever. Which it sounds telling now, like how on earth could you stand there and watch that happen? Go home and make dinner, and put the kids to bed or whatever our normal was. And I think it was just normalized. And the only way I got clear on this is not okay. Was with people, either friends or professionals, who after a while could see and validate.
Financial Abuse In Divorce: Support & Validation
Brenda: Oftentimes, we’re told, oh, that’s not a big deal. Oh, he had a bad day. Oh, whatever the excuse is, it’s still an excuse. And it is not okay to diminish people, swear at people, abuse people and hide information. And then with people who are, again, professionals, the therapist who, instead of saying, this is how you accommodate him. Who say, how do we support you?
And I see you and the behavior. It’s not normal, rational or acceptable, but sometimes it takes getting permission, I think from others. Who instead of saying, suck it up, you can do this, you just have to keep accommodating. Say you are worthy, whole, valuable, and this is the only life you have. You don’t need to live it this way. Once you start getting more voices who are giving you that support, you can start to see a different reality.
You can start to see space where you can have a valuable life. Where you can control your own decisions, where you’re not always walking on eggshells waiting for the next blow up or bad thing to happen.
Anne: Yeah, I think so many women, at least women, who come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, have been to a lot of therapy. They’ve asked their friends and family for help, and often, no one has told them, this is abuse. Many of them have experienced financial abuse in divorce.
Brenda: It’s how you can change, how you can accommodate, how you can change yourself and make it okay. But the answer I think is, it’s not okay. It is abuse, and no one deserves that.
Financial Decisions & Safety
Anne: Once women realize, once I realized it, through whatever way they do it. Some women learn it from listening to the podcast. There are many ways that you can realize, oh, this is abuse. Then when you’ve got the right pair of glasses to actually see reality for what it is. Then you can start making decisions, that help you start healing from this hidden abuse. Which I think comes into the financial piece. Because once you know the reality of your financial situation, you can start making decisions.
I’m thinking of another woman who thought her husband had a ton of money. And so she thought that in divorce, she would get a lot, so she wasn’t worried about getting a job. She wasn’t opposed to getting a job at all. She just didn’t think about it. Then when she found out more, she realized he was in so much debt that it was better for her to not take anything from him and just let him have his debt.
And then she was free to build her life the way she wanted, and not be saddled with all the debt he had accrued. And in her situation, that helped her move forward, realizing I’m going to go back to college and start a career.
Brenda: We are then working through their finances and what’s feasible, and just call it, what does it cost to live? That’s what we’re really figuring out. A woman in an abusive relationship trying to figure out what her options were. And at first blush, she looked at what now she had access to their finances. And could protect herself from financial abuse in divorce. But she looked at what they had. She’s like, oh, I’m going to have half a million dollars. I’m set for life.
Planning Ahead
Brenda: Let’s work through this. Let’s do the math and figure out what would it take for her to live for her kids, for their schooling, for their, all the things. And it came up to about a hundred thousand dollars a year. So half a million dollars after taxes, call it $350, 000. That’s going to get you through about three and a half years. So now you have that information, good. You’re going to be okay for three and a half years. And then what?
Or, if you don’t want to dip into that, what are your options now? For me, every little bit of information you have adds to the pieces of this puzzle you’re putting together for what your life can look like. What is safety to you? What is acceptable to you? The more information you have, the better you are able to make your own decisions. And protect yourself from financial abuse in divorce.
Anne: In some cases, I hear about women hiring a forensic accountant, and professionals like that help with their divorce cases. Can you talk more about specialized services like a forensic accountant? What does somebody like that do? Things that women might need to consider when looking at finances.
Brenda: So a forensic accountant will dig deep into the nitty gritty of the family finances. Sometimes looking for misspending, hidden money, things like that. Sometimes involved in putting values to things. So if you’re dividing things, you got to know what you’re dividing.
What is it worth? So a forensic accountant is often worthwhile when there are big financial questions or money might be hidden somewhere. It’s harder and harder to hide money. Because there’s an electronic trail, a paper trail, and tax trails, for almost every transaction we do.
Financial Abuse In Divorce: The Cost Of Financial Investigations
Brenda: Unless you’re dealing in cash or trade, it has a trail, so it’s harder to hide. It’s not impossible, but it’s harder. For most people, it’s not necessary if you don’t have a complex situation. Often hired, often overkill, if there’s not a lot of money at stake. So I had a client come to me about a year ago, and she was sure, absolutely sure her husband was hiding money. But when we kept talking about it, the amount she thought he was hiding.
It would have cost her so much more money to find it than it was worth. So we’ve got to figure out what it’s worth. Is it millions at stake? Are there tens of thousands of dollars missing? Then it’s probably worthwhile. If we’re talking a thousand dollars, that might have set aside. You will probably pay much more in professional fees to track that down. Than you’re ever going to get back.
As you’re approaching all this and trying to get smarter about your financial situation. Whether you’re aware of everything. Some of the good questions to ask yourself are at what cost? What’s the return on that investment? If you get that information, is it $5 or $50,000? How much are you willing to spend to get it? A forensic accountant is expensive.
The spouse took out a credit card that his wife wasn’t aware of, and spent it on pornography, and a woman in Eastern Europe he kept sending money to. So he would draw it off the credit card. She was incensed, and she was very hurt. They actually went through the divorce process, and she wanted an accounting of what he had spent. So she wouldn’t be a victim of financial abuse in divorce.
Is It Cost Effective To Investigate?
Brenda: And I completely understand that. They weren’t in a financial situation where they could throw money away freely. But in fact, what he had spent was about $500. It was a lot, but it would have cost so much more to trace that money. It wasn’t worth it. So in that case, she knew about it. They could use it in their discussions. She’s never going to get that money back. He already spent it, but tracing it wasn’t worthwhile.
Another woman did go through, it was 10,000 pages of credit card bills they gave her in a hard copy. But we found $250,000 that he had spent on a girlfriend. That was definitely worth it.
Anne: So, depending on what it is, I feel the same way about alimony, for example. If the lifetime value of spousal support is $80,000, let’s say, like $10,000 for eight years, and you spend $150, 000 getting that. You should think about the numbers here. When dealing with financial abuse in divorce.
Brenda: Do some math.
Anne: Yeah, you do some math and figure that out on the flip side of this. I have heard of a few victims who are like, I will start hiding money, and they have the impression, and this may be true. I am unschooled on this part of it. So they’re like, I’m going to start putting money here so they can’t find it, so I’m not going to get stuck paying him alimony.
Can you talk about that? Is there a way to legally protect yourself from that? For women who think there is a way to hide the money, can you maybe talk them through this situation?
Brenda: Maybe, but at what cost?
Legal & Ethical Considerations
Brenda: First of all, is there a legal way to hide money? Not really. In that case, if you’re going through divorce, you’re signing a contract on file with the court. And you’re essentially saying whether it’s mediation, collaborative process, litigation, whatever you go through. Every document I’ve ever seen says I told the truth and disclosed everything. So that’s pretty heavy.
If you’re going to hide money and you’re still okay with signing that, and then it’s found out later, you’re not in a good situation. So again, was it worth it? Is there a legal way? There are tricks that people and groups will share about how to stash away a little cash. Sometimes it might be necessary. I’ve seen partners cut their partner off and stop paying the bills out of spite. That is financial abuse in divorce.
Anne: That happened to me. I was completely cut off from finances, yeah.
Brenda: If you could be at risk and say physical safety of not being able to have food, shelter and clothing, you’re not able to live safely. Can you set aside money? Yes, the hiding it part is where it gets tricky. If the money is marital, you have a right to it. It is not uncommon. I’m here not working, raising the kids, and I don’t have anything of my own. Yes, you do. You have just as much right. You’re not being paid for your work, but it’s not his retirement account. It is marital.
There’s a caveat to everything. If he had it before you got married, that part’s not marital. But anything earned or saved during a marriage, unless it’s a gift or inheritance, because again, caveat, is marital, you have a right to it.
Financial Abuse In Divorce: Different Laws In Different States
Brenda: It’s not like you’re hiding and stealing if you’re taking money to ensure you can live.
Anne: In my case, I had paid $100,000 of his school debt when we got married. That was pre-marital assets in my case, because I was a teacher for 10 years and saved well and a bunch of stuff. And I did not get that back, because I apparently commingled it. Then my grandma, when she died, had given me a small sum of money. You’re saying if it’s an inheritance, it’s yours.
During mediation, instead of saying it’s the law, I’ll give it to her. He said, I know how much she loved her grandma, and I would never want to take that away from her. As if he was just being so nice. Instead of me realizing in that moment, he was just trying to look good when he had to give it back, no matter what.
Brenda: He had to give it back if it stayed in your name. If you put it in a joint bank account, not the case.
Anne: It was in a joint bank account. So maybe he was “being nice.”
Brenda: Yeah.
Anne: He wasn’t.
Brenda: Exactly, he was looking good.
Anne: For whatever reason he wanted to look good.
Brenda: I guess this is the difference between a financial advisor who you might have to help plan your retirement and what have you. And a certified divorce financial analyst, because divorce has its own money roles. They are actually different partnerships, depending on the state you live in, and can have their own money rules. Some recognize it like a common law marriage, even if you’re not married. Others don’t, and your rights vary depending on where you live.
Anne: Yeah.
Empowerment & Rights
Anne: That’s good to know. With your financial experience, what would you say to women skeptical about their financial future, victims of financial abuse in divorce?
Brenda: I would say you have value and rights, it is in your best interest to know them. Sometimes you’re not going to like what you learn, but you’ll have the information you need to start seeing a different future. To take control of your own situation. Even if it’s a little thing at a time, if you are not safe, and that doesn’t feel good. And you’ve been gaslit or brainwashed to believe you don’t have rights to have financial information.
Everything in the marriage belongs to the abuser, not to you. You have been told you’re lucky to be there. I would say you’re probably not lucky to be there. The more you surround yourself with the support of people who tell you that you have value, that you have worth. As challenging or huge as moving out of that space might seem. Even a little step, like a little crack in the situation, can then become bigger.
Hopefully, you’ll find yourself in a space where you are safe. Whether it’s married or not in a relationship, where you are safe and valued. Often in an abusive situation, you are made to feel small, and as though you owe something to the abuser. You don’t, you are complete, whole and valuable. You don’t have to give in to financial abuse in divorce.
Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode and sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. Her website is bridgingdivorcesolutions.com. Brenda, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today.
Brenda: Thank you, I appreciate it. I appreciate the work you do. It’s incredibly important.
What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? What You Need To Know If Your Husband Is An Addict
Apr 01, 2025
When a woman uncovers her husband’s infidelity, she might seek help from an addiction therapist. The therapist may recommend a therapeutic disclosure. What is a therapeutic disclosure? To summarize, here are 4 things you need to know.
A therapeutic disclosure is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to a therapist and his wife. In theory, the purpose is to provide the betrayed wife with all the information she needs, so she can make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward.
However, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t recommend it. Here’s why
1. Therapists mis-identify why he “needs” a Therapeutic Disclosure
A therapist may suggest that your husband needs a therapeutic disclosure, but what exactly is he disclosing? If the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional, psychological or some other type of abuse, it’s not recommended that you participate in his therapy or a therapist led disclosure in any way.
To see if any of the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional abuse, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
2. A Therapeutic Disclosure may Put You In Harms Way
Because therapeutic disclosures keep women in proximity to possibly abusive behavior, it’s important to know that abusive men often use the “trickle” method to selectively “disclose”, but it’s really calculated to manipulate and control her.
3. Abuse Experts Know Therapeutic Anything Makes Abuse Worse
Abusive men aren’t abusive because of things like childhood trauma or feeling ashamed. They’re abusive because they choose to be. If they have problems like trauma or shame, they could choose other ways to cope, like exercising, eating too much, or even building model trains. Abuse is always a choice.
Therapy helps figure out why someone acts the way they do. But an abusive man can confuse his therapist and wife by making up lots of “reasons” for the so-called root cause. These excuses can take over and become the focus. It’s better to avoid being part of an abusive man’s therapy altogether.
4. What Should I Do Instead Of Asking For A Therapeutic Disclosure?
Instead of convincing a husband to do a therapeutic disclosure, women who experience betrayal can focus on their own emotional and psychological safety.
Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to be talking about therapeutic disclosures. When you discover your husband is looking at online content, lying, having affairs, or soliciting. Someone might tell you, or you may think he’s a sex addict. And if you go to addiction therapy. There’s a high likelihood that an addiction therapist, will have him do a therapeutic disclosure.
So we’re going to talk about why I think therapeutic disclosures are dangerous. And then you decide what you want to do after listening to what I have to say. So, first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? It is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to his wife. In a “so-called structured way” with the guidance of a therapist.
In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs. For her to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn’t make sense. First of all, their history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little and big things. All the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, and the coercion.
It does not address his abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I’m going to get them in an abuse program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It’s in a couple setting where the wife says, Hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know.
The Role Of Therapists In Disclosures
Anne: There’s really no difference. Your abusive husband can manipulate the therapist. He can take his time and drag it out. Like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic will worsen the abuse. Because men aren’t abusive because of their childhood trauma or shame, or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people.
I know many people with childhood trauma. I feel shame. And I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk. I call my sister, you know, some people use model trains. Abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Nothing’s gonna stop him from wanting to exploit the situation. Except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn’t be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice.
The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person’s behavior. So in therapy, an abusive, manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles. He’ll give both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are lies, and then these “reasons” take on a life of their own. So it’s best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man’s therapy, treatment, or program at all costs.
A therapist could tell you that a therapeutic disclosure is important, to “avoid trickle disclosures.” And that sounds like a good idea. If a therapist tells you we’re going to do this, so you can get the whole truth. So he doesn’t just give you a little information. here and there.
Therapeutic Disclosures & Continued Abuse
Anne: But what they won’t tell you is this is just an abuser lying. He’ll disclose bits of information tactically to manipulate, distress you or drag things out. They know that this process of disclosing things at tactical times gives them control. So they’re going to prolong the process for as long as possible to maintain that control. Throughout that whole thing she’s still unsafe. She’s unsafe at every point.
Not realizing she’s being lied to and manipulated, staying in contact with his constant abuse. Most often in the form of grooming. And because they’re doing this, victims undergo immense trauma for that time. Now, even if they don’t realize it, it seems like it’s going well. So many women come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and share six months after the disclosure or two years later. They realize what was happening.
And they realized it was all lies and manipulation. They are so traumatized that they spent that much time basically just in this fog. With a therapist possibly enabling their continued abuse. Years ago, when I started podcasting, I interviewed a C-SAT about disclosures. She disagrees with me and thinks disclosures are great. And she uses them in her practice.
When I interviewed her, it was really at the beginning. I didn’t love disclosures, but I was willing to have an open-mind. I posted the interview on my podcast, and then pretty soon after removed it. Because I realized this is problematic, and I don’t want to hurt someone’s reputation. My podcast isn’t a gotcha podcast. I appreciate everyone who has spent the time to come and be interviewed.
What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Community Feedback
Anne: Sometimes I disagree with people. And because of the way the interview goes, I don’t air that episode. Because I want to make sure I’m putting out the best information that I feel good about. I also want to acknowledge that some of you may have actually gone through this process, and it worked out great for you. If you feel that way, go to the bottom of this transcript, and comment. You can interact with our community about your experience.
If it worked for you, I’m so glad it did. I don’t want to recommend it to anyone. And I’ll tell you the reasons why, but I also don’t want you to feel bad if you did it and it worked out great for you. Everybody is different. But reading the transcript of this podcast from years ago, which hasn’t even been in circulation, right? I took it out of circulation years ago. We talked about what is a therapeutic disclosure. There are so many important points that I wanted to talk about.
Now part of that episode was that we sent out a call for questions about disclosures at that time. And women wrote in their questions. So here’s a question that we received. One community member asked. Shouldn’t it be up to the wife to know or ask anything she needs to, even if it hurts her and causes her more pain? Is pain the enemy here? Isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation far more dangerous? So that was the first question.
Therapists’ Assumptions & Misconceptions
Anne: Now this therapist said she thought it was up to the partner to decide the level of detail they wanted in the disclosure. Which is fascinating to me that this therapist assumed this guy would somehow tell the truth. Or that she could get the level of information she actually wanted. He’s super manipulative. So putting a woman in this position where you’re giving her the impression that she can get information. If he is a liar who manipulates people, is super scary.
The woman who asked the question says, isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation, far more dangerous? Yes, a hundred percent, but the disclosure itself is an unsafe situation. I’m going to talk about what to do, instead of a disclosure at the end. So keep listening, because I will give you an alternative.
This therapist said when she starts disclosures, and I’m going to do a quote here. She said, “For me, when I’m leading disclosures or doing trainings about disclosures, I encourage partners to start with the least amount of detail. You can ask more, you have a right to ask for more information, but let’s be slow and careful. That it’s not too much information for your brain. Some of this information will be traumatic for you.”
Like, you know, it’s going to be really traumatic for you. And so maybe you shouldn’t find out that it is insane for a therapist to say this. I can’t believe I had this episode up for a while.
The Importance Of Truth In Healing
Anne: This therapist said, “So sometimes people get caught up in the emotion, and they want to know more and more. And that’s fine if they want to know, but I always ask them. Do you want to know? Is it going to be helpful in your healing?” Why would not knowing the truth be helpful in any situation? Like you can’t heal without the truth. Because if you don’t know what the truth is about the situation, you can’t make good choices.
So why would anyone imply it’s okay? To not be aware of who your husband really is. Why would a therapist want to hide a man’s true character from his wife? Then I asked the therapist. What about safety issues, like isn’t that the most important thing? And she was like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to think about safety, but that was not the first thing she said. And she didn’t even mention it. Instead she was like, Does she want to know the truth or does she want to heal?
And when it came to safety, the only thing she mentioned was getting an STD test. She did not tell me how to set boundaries. And I thought. You’re not going to mention that lying is emotional abuse, or the psychological abuse, or grooming? The fact that the thing you’re doing right now, her involvement with his therapy, his addiction recovery. Is counter-indicated when it comes to abuse. And you’re not talking about abuse. That’s dangerous.
What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Safety Concerns
Anne: So when I asked her this. This was her response. She said, “I work with addicts and their partners. When I work with an addict and help him prepare his disclosure. What is a therapeutic disclosure? We’re looking at all the categories of behavior and addiction. He may not have behavior in all categories, but I want them to go through an inventory of every category. And then she starts talking about literally the details of the acting out, like specific ways he has behaved.
And she starts delineating these things, and I’m like, what about abuse? She’s still not even saying this man is abusive and manipulative. How does all the different ways he had cheated, help her know that this is abuse? So then I asked her. What about other questions that aren’t related to this kind of behavior? Like lying. So I keep trying to go back to this, and she said that’s a hard one, because addicts have lied for so long.
It’s hard for them to go through all the lies and correct all the lies in a disclosure. But isn’t that the point of a disclosure to find out the truth? You’re just going to hear me getting frustrated as I talk about this interview and the things she told me. Because it starts going around and around in circles. And I’m trying, but she doesn’t want to connect the dots. And so it got more frustrating as time went on.
Then she says something that we absolutely do not recommend. And you’ll know why at the end. What is a therapeutic disclosure? She says the addict prepares a disclosure document.
Writing Past Behaviors Down & Lying
Anne: So basically, you’re giving this man a lot of time. What is a therapeutic disclosure? He writes down all his manipulative reasons and craft this narrative any way he wants. To paint himself any way he chooses. Usually they paint themselves where they’re a victim in some way, they’re a victim because their dad didn’t love them enough. Or they’re a victim because their relationship with their mom is bad or they’re a victim because their dog died.
So really, this disclosure is just putting her in the position to be lied to more. And the therapist said, okay, so she’s going to get this paper of this narrative that he concocted? And that’s when she gets to start asking him questions about it. But if he’s going to continue to lie. Do you see the problem? We’re going in circles. And this is a direct quote.
She said, “Sometimes the disclosure can be a time for lies. Sometimes there are so many lies. The addict will never be able to tell the truth about them all. And the question is, Is the addict trying to live, honestly? Has he lied to her to protect her?
What? No, nope, that’s not the reason. And then she says this, and this is what I just talked about. “And usually the lying comes from a behavior much younger, and from another time. It doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it. And then we can get to the root of it.” Like, no, he just lied because he chose to, and he’s continuing the lie because he chooses to.
The Abuser May Lie & Manipulate
Anne: Then I say to this therapist, she doesn’t need to worry about why he’s lying. The lying in and of itself is dangerous, and she needs to be shielded from being lied to. All she needs to understand is the type of character he has. That this was emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. And he’s continuing to do it. So I go back to the safety issue. Because like, you’re still not getting . Like, are you going to get it in this interview?
What is a therapeutic disclosure? She says, “I think the disclosure is important, because one person has knowledge and information about the relationship that the other doesn’t.”
Absolutely, but do you think someone who is hiding something on purpose, who has for years. Who is now being forced to do it by will be like, okay, I’m going to do it now. Like, no, this is just an opportunity for more of it. So the therapist said, “This is a rebalancing of the information” and I’m like, no, it’s not. That is not what is happening. It is not a rebalancing of the information. If they’re going to continue to manipulate and lie through the whole process.
So I never really got anywhere. We just talked in circles. And then here was the second question we had from our community. Why is the couple involved in a disclosure? Isn’t that couple therapy and couple therapy is counter-indicated when there’s abuse. And the therapist was like, I would never want clients to go to couples therapy when there is abuse involved. Uh, it’s all abuse. And you were working with the couple to do the disclosure.
What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Grooming During It
Anne: Like can we put two and two together here? What is a therapeutic disclosure? It’s not necessarily couple therapy, but she is involved. She is talking about what she needs and wants. She’s telling the therapist things that the therapist will tell him. There is some communication. This is definitely a couple endeavor. I don’t ever hear of addicts doing disclosures completely by themselves. Without their wife being involved.
That might be the only scenario where this might work. If he went in completely by himself, went to therapy all by himself, his wife was not involved. But then wouldn’t he be like, I’m going to tell the truth. So we wouldn’t even need therapy. So I asked her specifically, aren’t you concerned about grooming that’s taking place during this disclosure process or during this time of therapy?
That’s not considered “couple therapy,” but basically it is because the therapist is in communication with both people. Sometimes they’ll meet together. And she said, “I’ve never seen it from a grooming perspective.”
There are a few individuals who learn a little bit. And then they use it against their partner. And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we say that almost exclusively. So the fact that she thought it was just a few people and we’re like, um, this is on a like grand scale that this happens. So then I talk more about grooming and I talk about empathy scripts.
The Problem With Empathy Scripts
Anne: So, what I’ve seen with men’s programs, even abuse programs. The therapist will be like, Okay, you don’t know how to be empathetic. So I’m going to help you learn what to say. But because they’re not genuinely empathetic, the therapist is like, well, I’m going to teach them. And they’ll just have to act like it until they become it. That sounds okay in theory. But in real practice, if they are not empathetic, they are not safe.
If you’re in a room with someone who genuinely does not care about you at all. They’re not concerned about your emotional safety, your physical safety. They don’t care. They just want to exploit you and groom you. Them grooming you better with an empathy script is extremely dangerous. Because then they sound better. They can manipulate you more. So I brought this up, and the therapist said empathy scripts. Wow, I haven’t heard of that before.
Then she said, “The way I look at it is if he comes home and uses the words I gave him or taught him, I always say, this is a good thing. Now I assume his intentions are true and his intentions are good. Because he’s trying new skills, and doesn’t have his own language yet.” So do you see the problem here? If he doesn’t have the ability to be empathetic, he’s mimicking it. He may use that and concentrate on what is a therapeutic disclosure to groom.
She assumes he’s trying to connect. But maybe he’s not. Maybe he’s like, okay, I’ve got to check all these boxes to continue to exploit the situation.
https://youtu.be/FvIlEiaGPY8
Observing Genuine Change
Anne: So then I asked her, how do you tell the difference between practicing a genuine new skill he wants, or is he using this to manipulate her? And she said, trust is built over time, which is true. And then she said, let’s sit back and watch. Which I also agree with. So why not just sit back and watch from the beginning? Why teach him all the empathy scripts? What is a therapeutic disclosure? Why have him write out a big thing about his disclosure and all the lies?
Is it just because you want them to spend a ton of money on therapy? Like you can sit back and watch without all that. In fact, instead of putting yourself in harm’s way—to be lied to—you can observe at a safe distance from the beginning, and not spend any money to know if he’s safe or not. All right, another question from a community member.
What is a therapeutic disclosure? She asked, Why do some therapists not include the state of the family finances in the full disclosure? This is a very important piece of information for a woman to have. The therapist says, “That is something that, I’ll say, unless a partner brings it up I will forget to ask that. It’s not on the top of my brain.” So if abuse is not on the top of the therapist’s brain, do you see how they’re not going to identify the abuse?
And then the therapist says, I don’t know that it’s forgotten on purpose. I’m just not sure it’s on the top of our to-do list when we’re assessing for addiction and lies. So does this therapist think hiding money is not a lie? Because it is.
What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? The Transactional Nature Of It
Anne: What is a therapeutic disclosure? Then I asked the therapist. Are there any abuse issues you have found helpful for women to ask about in the disclosure? And she said, no, she didn’t think so. And that she just saw it as a data exchange. Which confirms my theory about couple therapy or therapy in this instance. When it comes to abuse, he is basically facilitating his transactionship. That he’s like, I’m going to check all these boxes.
I’m going to write out a big document where I can craft a narrative that paints me as a victim. And if I do these things, she’ll let me back in the house. And the therapist is like, yep. Check, check, check. Sounds right, using the empathy scripts. We’re good to go. But he actually is still that exploitative person. And he used that whole process as a transaction. So the fact that she’s like, this is just a data exchange. She even uses the word exchange, which was super alarming.
All right. Another question from the community. The question from the community is, do you have any tips on how a spouse or former spouse who is not getting a disclosure moves forward? All she said basically was that it’s very hard when you don’t get the answers and don’t get the information you need. And that’s going to take a lot of time and coaching to come to grips with, she actually said coaching. Which I thought was interesting.
But she’s not acknowledging that even with the disclosure process, you’re still not going to get all the information. All you’ll get is a bunch of checked boxes and a document that he’s carefully crafted. That’s it, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true.
Tips About Disclosures
Anne: What is a therapeutic disclosure? Prepping for a therapeutic disclosure sometimes takes six months, a year or two years of going to therapy once a week. And a victim often goes to therapy, maybe not once a week, but often to be part of this process. While he takes all this time to manufacture the narrative. That seems absolutely dangerous. And a waste of time and money.
I do have some tips about it, and I will share them with you now. I want you to think about what you know, so rather than going with your abuser to addiction therapy. Take one hour. Get out a pen and paper. And sit down at your kitchen table. And list all the things that you know. So for me, it would have been, I know he leaves the house at 10:00 PM, and I don’t know where he goes. And he gets home at like one in the morning or two in the morning. And I don’t know where he’s been.
I’ve never been able to get a straight answer, I know that. I know that he screams in my face. And I know he’s punched a few walls. I know that he doesn’t make sense. I know that he has lied to me about this, this, this, and this. So write all the things that you know. I’m not sure why they would take two years to force a known pathological liar to tell the truth. When they could just say, you already know. Let’s focus on what you know.
The Issue With Polygraphs
Anne: Now once you have everything you know written down. Compare that to what abuse is, and then you’ll answer, is he abusive? Observe over time to see what his character is. And that’s all you need to know. When you know who he is, because you can see him clearly. Then you’ll feel confident in your choices. But if you can’t see him clearly, it’s hard to be confident about your choices.
What is a therapeutic disclosure? Women who are going through the therapeutic disclosure process are having a hard time because they’re still exposed to all that manipulation. Here’s the last question from our community members. She asked how accurate are lie detector tests? There are many addicts who won’t do them because they say they’re not accurate. Do you use them in your practice?
If so, can you debunk misunderstandings about their accuracy and effectiveness in re-establishing trust in relationships? So I know a lot of women whose husbands have done disclosures and had polygraphs. And they’ve said they were helpful. So if they have been helpful to you, I’m glad they worked for you. This therapist said, she likes polygraphs and lie detectors. So she uses them in her practice.
She claims they have an 80% accuracy rate. And then she said in my world, that’s better than not knowing. And I’m like, if it’s only 80% accuracy, you still don’t know. So it’s not better than not knowing, because it’s the exact same thing. Again, the reason why I don’t like polygraphs is still, the focus is on trying to get him to tell you something. Rather than having confidence in yourself and what you already know.
What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Relying On Personal Observations
Anne: Anytime we’re trying to protect ourselves from his abuse by trying to get something from him. What is a therapeutic disclosure? Or having someone else get it through his brain, like clergy or a couple therapist or an addiction recovery specialist. That is how the abuser will manipulate you. The thing about polygraphs that makes me nervous is they might tell the truth about the questions that the polygrapher is asking. But there’s so much that we wouldn’t know.
I’m a woman of faith. If you’re not, you’re welcome here. But just for my own faith perspective. I don’t think there is any human earthly ability to genuinely detect if someone is lying, other than through observing them. Also I don’t think there’s a way to force them to tell the truth. I think God created this earthly life with that scenario, because it’s part of our earthly test. I think the only person who knows the truth is God.
And so, I would prefer to turn to God to pray to feel the spirit, and then observe from a safe distance to know. That’s a safer situation. Because it focuses on what you know, and what God is telling you. Rather than rely on anything the abuser is saying, or someone he is manipulating, like a therapist or clergy is saying. This therapist, this is a direct quote. She says, “The thing about the polygraph, I really want to make sure folks understand, is that it’s not a statement of truth.”
I’m reading this word for word. She said, “It’s not a statement of truth. It’s what he says is true.” And then she gives a confusing example that didn’t make any sense. I couldn’t make heads or tails of it.
Therapist’s Views On Polygraphs
Anne: And then she says this, “The polygraph is only checking what he thinks to be true. It doesn’t check his memory. It doesn’t check if he’s forgetting, it doesn’t check if his memory is wrong. So that’s an important piece that partners need to know before they go in. So, if he says this is everything and passes the polygraph, there are so many times when by virtue of exploring, investigating, or researching the data.
She’s referring to all the months he spends crafting his narrative about. Apparently, “all the addiction acting out.” Okay, quoting her again now. “So he goes into a polygraph and passes. And then the next night, the victim will say, wait, what about this? And the addict will say, oh, I forgot about that.”
So she is saying I use polygraphs, but a lot of the time. The truth isn’t included. And then she says this. “This is not them manipulating. This is them remembering one more thing.”
So they always have some excuse, apparently according to a C-SAT to not tell the truth, I guess. That just sounds like chaos and pain. What is a therapeutic disclosure? So then I tell her a few examples of women who came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery and told us their disclosure horror stories. One of them, a man went in to do a polygraph and he passed. But the things that he said were true, she knew were not true.
And the therapist said, well, he passed the polygraph, so he’s great. I don’t know why you don’t believe him. It was just a nightmare for her.
The Chaos Of Incomplete Disclosures
Anne: And I talked about that, and the therapist said, “Sometimes the guy is not yet out of his layers of denial enough that he’s seeing the full picture.” I think it’s more that he’s manipulating on purpose. That he’s good at lying and manipulating. And then she said, “but any disclosure is better than none.”
Basically saying that even if it’s all abuse and a mess, and he’s saying certain truths in a tactical fashion to manipulate the whole situation. That’s better than not being abused. I disagree. What is a therapeutic disclosure? I don’t think any disclosure is better than none. because the disclosure in and of itself is just abuse the whole time. I think no disclosure is better than any disclosure at all.
So then in the end I asked her, is there anything else you want to share about disclosures? And she says, “I think your community is amazing and that you’re doing a great job.” That’s nice of her to say that, even though now I’m like throwing her under the bus. And the reason why I didn’t want to do her voice is because I have no intention of harming anyone’s reputation, but I want to educate you about the dangers of disclosures.
What she wanted to say at the end was that she knows that women in our situation want to know the truth. They want to know exactly what happened. And then she said, and sometimes we need to break the disclosure into two pieces. Get the safety items taken care of immediately.
What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Final Thoughts
Anne: Uh, that’s like 10 minutes after she said you have to observe and wait to know if they’re safe. You can’t get any safety items taken care of immediately. That’s not how safety works. You have to observe from a safe distance for a long time to see what their actions are. So I don’t even know what she means when she says get the safety items taken care of immediately. That’s just not a thing.
She’s not only contradicting herself, she’s also showing that she doesn’t understand how safety works. And then she says, if they can wait a little longer, it will take a lot of time. And if you’re more patient, it’s going to get better. So she assumes you can create safety immediately. Then you need to take a lot of time to see if he’s safe, almost in the same breath. That doesn’t make sense to me.
So, what is a therapeutic disclosure? All right now, I’m going to talk about what you should do, instead of asking for a therapeutic disclosure. I know that in your desire to have a therapeutic disclosure, couple therapy or get clergy to help him. You are resisting the abuse. You’re doing everything right. You’re trying to stop this, because you want a safe place for your family.
So you’re doing amazing. You’re doing everything you’re supposed to do. This is not your fault, and this is not your problem. This is the problem of addiction therapists who don’t know anything about abuse, who are putting women in harm’s way. That has nothing to do with you.
Educating Yourself About Abuse
Anne: What is a therapeutic disclosure? Instead of doing a therapeutic disclosure, the number one thing is to educate yourself about abuse, so that you can start seeing the truth of your situation. You might find that he’s not as abusive as you thought. You might find out that he’s really abusive. But getting educated about abuse will help. Number two, determine your husband’s true character from your own observations.
That’s why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It takes you through step-by-step how to observe from a safe distance. You could still be in your home. This doesn’t necessarily mean you have to move out to observe from a safe distance. It gives you strategies to do this, whether you’re in the home or even if you’re divorced, they work no matter what.
So that you determine if he has a safe character from what you know, and you don’t have to rely on him for any information whatsoever.
Getting The Right Support
Anne: And then the third is to get the right support from people who understand abuse. That could be a group at your local domestic violence shelter. It could be a therapist who understands abuse, who does not know your husband. Who will not talk to your husband. Who’s not going to have anything to do with him. It could be our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. You don’t need to worry about what is a therapeutic disclosure.
Or scheduling an individual session with one of our coaches. But getting the right support so that you’re protected. Because anyone who talks to an abuser will be manipulated. So that puts you in a dangerous situation, because you’re trying to see the truth. You’re trying to see him for who he really is. So you don’t need him manipulating any more people. He’s already manipulating you. To get more information about The Living Free Workshop click this link.
Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? Penny’s Take
Mar 25, 2025
Hidden abuse is characterized by lies and manipulation, and it causes trauma that’s hard to recognize.
To discover if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of hidden abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
One of the biggest obstacles in healing trauma from hidden abuse is understanding what’s happening to you.
The constant barrage of lies and manipulation from the abuser can make it incredibly difficult for women to see the reality of their situation. Gaslighting, a common tactic, can distort a woman’s perception of reality, making her doubt her judgment and experiences.
Traditional therapists, clergy, and even well-meaning friends and family may not recognize hidden abuse for what it is.
Barriers To Discovering Hidden Abuse:
Lack of Understanding: Many women fail to recognize lies, pornography use, and infidelity as forms of emotional and psychological abuse.
Misguided Strategies: Conventional advice focuses on improving communication and forgiveness rather than educating about abuse and implementing safety strategies.
Isolation: Feeling misunderstood leads to social withdrawal, making it harder to seek support.
Being Dismissed: Without a supportive network that acknowledges abuse, women begin to question their experiences and feelings.
Stigma: Fear of judgment and the stigma of “giving up on the relationship” or not being a good wife prevents women from seeking emotional safety.
Guilt and Shame: Self-blame (or being blamed by the abuser) stops women from reaching out for help.
Trying to Fix Yourself: Believing the problem lies within themselves keeps women from finding emotional safety.
Confusion: Manipulation tactics like gaslighting cause confusion and self-doubt.
Entrapment: Continued manipulation leaves women feeling trapped.
Pressure to Reconcile: Cultural and religious norms prioritize preserving the marriage over individual well-being.
When You Go For Help, But They Don’t Identify Hidden Abuse
If you’ve tried to figure out what’s going on and you haven’t been able to feel more emotionally safe, there is help.
If you’re struggling to heal the trauma from hidden abuse, consider attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY and take the first step toward a brighter, healthier future.
Transcript: Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse
Anne: Penny is back on today’s episode. You can find her story in an episode called How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny’s story. We wanted to talk about the aftermath of emotional abuse, how it’s misunderstood by people in general, and how to face that. So welcome back, Penny.
Penny: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Anne: So this type of hidden abuse where you don’t have someone charged with domestic violence. Why do you think it’s so hard for people to understand what it takes to heal trauma from hidden abuse?
Penny: Yeah, I think like you said, they don’t see any bruises, scars, or black eyes. We want to fit in and be accepted. We don’t want to be different. And so we look normal on the outside, but the inside is where the pain, results, and leftover baggage from emotional abuse is.
Things like fear, anxiety, and unsureness. Am I doing the right thing? Am I saying the right thing? And so this kind of stuff lingers with a person for a long time, or at least in my case, a very long time. And still does, even though I’ve been working on recovery for decades.
Anne: Yeah, the lack of self confidence is due to emotional abuse, because that was the purpose of the emotional abuse. This is why it’s so important to find a betrayal trauma support group. For years, someone intentionally undermined your sense of self, and also purposefully undermined your, I call it a sacred internal warning system, where you know something’s wrong.
Rebuilding Self-Identity
Anne: You’re trying to resist something that’s harming you. You don’t have the words to describe it. You’re going to the person who is harming you and telling him, “You’re harming me”, but he already knows. He knows he’s exploiting you.
So he takes that as a cue, “Okay, I need to undermine her sense that something’s wrong.” Otherwise, I’m not able to exploit her.” So it doesn’t help to share your feelings with him. He purposefully erodes your sense of self over time. And when you’re safe from the abuse and not exposed to it anymore, rebuilding that sense of self is such a process.
Penny: Part of the emotional abuse I was put through was with my stepmother when I was a child, and it carried with me to my young adulthood when I married early. My stepmother told me constantly, you’re dumb, you’re stupid, you’re worthless, you’ll never amount to anything. So, of course, I had a low opinion of myself going into adulthood. Even though on the outside, you may not have seen that. It was trauma from hidden abuse.
And so when I married young and married a partner who tried to control me and told me that I was in sin. Because the pastor told him that I was in sin, he wouldn’t listen to me. There was nothing to talk about, and I was wrong. And as soon as I repented, we would be back to normal, and all would be fine.
And I think it was pressure to have me confess to something, because I was too strong willed for this particular church and this particular pastor. I was too questioning. And wasn’t as docile as they wanted women to be.
Societal and Religious Scripts That Hide Abuse
Penny: And they actually taught that women should submit to husbands, that they should glorify God by glorifying their husbands. This is when biblical submission becomes abuse. So anything I said or did that wasn’t according to the pastor or my husband’s wishes was considered wrong. And I was told this constantly.
So, when I left that abusive situation finally at 32, I questioned everything I did and said. Because my whole life, my childhood, my young adulthood, my early 20s. I was told I was wrong and my thinking was wrong, and who I was wasn’t good enough. The trauma from hidden abuse doesn’t go away overnight. And it takes a community. In my case. I moved far away and left the church.
I stopped practicing that religion, and I surrounded myself with people who were smarter than me. That liked me and accepted me for who I was. And here’s an example of how I rebuilt it. One of my friends said, Penny, you should apply for this job. We have an opening at my firm.
This woman was college educated, and I wasn’t, and she worked in finance, which I hardly knew what that meant. And she said, “You should apply to this job.” And I said, oh no, I can’t. I’m too stupid. And she said, Penny, you’re not stupid. You’re smart, and we’ll train you. You should apply. Guess what? I applied and they hired me over 30 or 40 other resumes that they had on their desktop. I saw a stack of resumes.
Realizing Self-Worth
Penny: So I knew, wait a minute, maybe my stepmother, ex-husband and pastor, maybe they were all wrong. And that’s how I slowly started rebuilding my life, surrounding my life with people who believed in me and held up a mirror to me that said, “You’re not stupid, you’re not ugly, dumb, or worthless. You are able, and here’s the proof.”
And then I started college. I put myself through community college, and I started getting A’s and B’s, and the teachers started calling on me in the classroom. They held me up as an example of here’s some good thinking, here’s a person who read the work, or here’s the person who gets this idea.
And slowly over time, and I’m talking decades, with the help of friends, holding up a mirror to me and showing me who I was. I started to change my opinion of myself. But it took a long time, work, and struggle and pain. Because those old thoughts and those old scripts still played in my mind.
Anne: One thing I want to point out to victims is that exploitation is such a huge part of trauma from hidden abuse. It is abuse in that they want something from you, your labor, your admiration. They want you to cook them dinner, have sex with them, or go to a party with them. They want something from you. So instead of caring about you, they care about what they can get from you.
His Lies & Manipulation Will Always Be Hidden Abuse
Anne: And because of that, anyone who hears, you’re not good at this. If we knew what was happening, the best defense is to say, in a strategic way. I actually teach this in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Is to say something like, oh, you’re right. I bet you don’t want to be around somebody like me. That makes sense. Then leave. Then they’re like, wait, no, you can’t go.
We know exploitation is the issue, because if they think so poorly of us, why would they want to be around us? Why do they not want us to leave when we say, oh, okay, we’re going to leave? Suddenly they’re like, you can’t leave. And then they want to stop you from leaving by being even more abusive, which also doesn’t make sense. If you weren’t capable, powerful and talented, they wouldn’t have anything to exploit from you. I think that’s the thing they’re trying to hide.
I think they’re thinking she’s capable, smart, and awesome. If she finds out how capable she is, how smart she is. She’s not going to want to stay here. So I’ve got to hide that from her, because I want to use her talents for myself. Heaven forbid, if she used her talents for her own self and her own life. Do you think your step mom was exploiting you?
Penny: I absolutely do. She was handicapped, crippled and in pain. My father was no help to her at all. He didn’t provide well, or help around the house. She needed me, but there was more to it than that. These people who exploit us, who hurt us emotionally, psychologically and physically. In her case, she was bitter and angry.
Exploitation By Family Members
Penny: Now that I’m a much older person and look back on it, she was angry at herself. She married my dad, who was a complete loser. Her parents warned her. Her parents said, don’t marry this guy. He’s a liar. They saw through him. She didn’t. Or she did it anyway, because she wanted to get out of her house.
They not only exploit us for our labor, in her case house cleaning, babysitting, and chores. We become their punching bag, because there’s nobody else to defend us. She knew my dad was never home. So she did it when he wasn’t home, of course, and when he came home late at night, was drunk. She had hours, she had all day until 8 or 9 at night to take advantage of me and create trauma this abuse was hidden from everyone else.
They break us down and make us feel small to exploit us for our labor or whatever they want from us. Because if we’re smarter than them, yes, we will leave. And eventually I did when I was old enough and had the wherewithal. But I couldn’t leave at 8, 9, 10 or 11. I had no idea where to go or how to do it.
Anne: Why do you think it’s so hard for other people to see this type of trauma from hidden abuse? When a victim is either in it or healing, and they might blame her. Or say something like, you’re just bitter or you need to move on, or why can’t you get over it? Even when you’re out of it. You’re not married anymore, for example, I’m talking about the universal you.
Penny: Yes.
Anne: A victim is not in the relationship anymore. She’s relatively safe.
Healing Trauma From Hidden Post Separation Abuse
Anne: Most of us experience post separation abuse. I was abused after my divorce for eight years through my ex’s messages about our children. So most women deal with post-separation abuse. And that’s why you know, we’re not “moving on” because the abuse is right then, like it happened today. He wrote me an abusive message and lied about me today.
But in terms of women who are healing trauma from hidden abuse, and maybe in a stage where they need to talk about it. Or they’re trying to process what happened, and bystanders say things like. You need to move on, or why can’t you just forgive, or give your power away? Or any of these like super hurtful things, because they don’t understand that she is healing from this type of trauma.
Penny: Part of it is that for people like you and myself, and those who have experienced hidden abuse. We get how deep and painful those wounds are, and how they don’t go away. And those fortunate enough to not have that happen to them, they don’t get it. They really don’t.
That’s one of the reasons why we need somebody to talk to that will validate us and help us heal. And give us a safe place where we can talk about the everyday nightmares and fears that come up in routine life. Our friends, it’s quite possible they just don’t have the capacity. And someday they will.
When Therapy Makes Things Worse
Penny: One of the reasons to read memoirs that may be different than your life is so that you can learn what other people have to go through to survive and to succeed. I mean, that’s why I read memoirs and I think that’s how I learn about other people and how that happened to them.
Anne: Reading is so valuable. You can get inside someone’s head in a way that you can’t from, like a movie or other experience. To develop compassion for others. But I also think that’s why it’s so important to ensure you’re connected with other women who understand. That’s why we do The Betrayal Trauma Recovery daily Group Sessions and Individual Sessions. Because everybody at Betrayal Trauma Recovery has been through it. We all totally get it.
Even a good therapist who hasn’t been through it will have a different take. Than someone who has been a victim who understands hidden abuse on that deep personal level. What it’s actually like. Because we’ve had so many women come to us who have gone to therapy, and the therapy actually made the situation worse.
You thought, maybe it will improve our marriage if I do this. Maybe I can make things work. The same thing with the church. But some therapists might say, why did you do that? If you knew things were so bad and didn’t like him, why did you move away?
Safety Strategies To Protect Yourself
Anne: And the answer is I’m resisting, I’m trying to improve things. I realize it did not improve things, but my intent was to improve things. Same thing with women who are being lied to and yelled at. They might have sex with their husband, for example, and a therapist might say, why did you do that? And it’s because I thought if I did, he would not be mad at me anymore.
Penny: Nobody wants to be abused. Nobody wants to be exploited. We just don’t realize, especially if you’re stuck there financially and have children. It’s hard to leave if you’re financially dependent. And they make us emotionally dependent. It’s not your fault. If you’re a victim.
Anne: They’ve done a lot of damage, but I think even if it’s not a therapist, just people around saying something like, why didn’t you do this? It’s just so not helpful.
Penny: Not helpful. It’s actually hurtful, because then it makes you feel like something was wrong with you for not doing more. I don’t think you had a choice.
Anne: As I interview victims experiencing hidden abuse, it’s interesting. Because I’m asking questions like, and then this happened, or tell me about what you were thinking? And that’s not to victim blame or say they did something wrong. But to help other victims realize that this thought process that all of us go through is common, and that they’re not doing anything wrong.
They are actually doing what anyone in this situation would do. Another point to make is the “right” thing to do, for example, stand up for yourself. Which you would think would work is not the solution.
Winning Arguments Doesn’t Uncover Hidden Abuse
Anne: Your background is that you had a low opinion of yourself due to your stepmother’s abuse. In my case, I had strong self esteem. And I thought I was super smart. And so I would fight my abuser and be like, what? No, you don’t have this right. And I would usually win our arguments. And he was confused, and he would say things like, “Wait a minute. How are you winning this argument? I went to law school.”
My ex is an attorney, and I would say, “because you don’t make any sense.” And the reason why I would say that is because he wasn’t making any sense. Because he wanted to either exploit me or do something terrible for our family. And he was trying to give me like a bogus reason. This will be good for our family, because we’ll have this awesome rally car in our driveway, and it will make our neighbors think we’re cool. Something like that.
And I was like, what are you talking about? You are not making any sense. But the reason why I bring this up is that so many women are actually confident and don’t have a low self-esteem. But it’s not keeping them from being exploited or abused, because fighting with the abuser also doesn’t actually stop the abuse.
Penny: Right.
Anne: Then you just end up in an argument.
Sometimes it ends with you just giving up. In my case, I didn’t give up. So our arguments would last a long time, until basically he would pretend to give up. And then, like literally 10 minutes later, that rally car would be in our driveway. That’s just a metaphor. You know what I mean?
When You Can Finally See The Hidden Abuse
Anne: So that’s what’s really hard for women too, because I think inside of ourselves, we’re thinking maybe if I would have been quieter, maybe if I hadn’t asked so many questions, maybe if I hadn’t stood up for myself more, what if I had done this or that, would it have changed things? And the answer is no, they’re going to choose to do this no matter what.
Penny: Yep, all of us, I think, are taught as young girls to believe in the happily ever after. And most of us take our marriage vows seriously. I did. And so I couldn’t fight, because I was under the dictate of women submit to their husband. So I could try to express my view, but it didn’t carry any weight whatsoever. And I just had to live with it until it reached a point when I realized I can’t be here anymore. This is not who I am.
This is not where I belong. The church is asking me to do stuff that I don’t want to do. My husband, I no longer respect him or love him. If standing up for yourself or fighting will get you emotionally hurt. It’s time to step back and say, you know what, I made a mistake, and it’s okay to make mistakes.
I didn’t have all the information. I did not know who he was. He didn’t show me who he really was. But now that I know, and I don’t feel comfortable, I feel exploited and have trauma from hidden abuse. It’s time for me to step back, keep my mouth shut. Until I can find a plan, because that’s how you stay safe. You have to stay safe for yourself and your children until you can make a plan.
Living Free Workshop Strategies Help You SEE Hidden Abuse
Penny: And that means find community, find help, whatever it takes to successfully extract with the least amount of trauma.
Anne: Absolutely, and that’s why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because in my experience interviewing all the victims I’ve interviewed over the years, over 300 on the podcast and in person. In our efforts to resist this trauma from hidden abuse, we’ve all tried different things, but it usually falls into two categories.
https://youtu.be/8Fd34dtRiRY
Either we’re trying to stay safe by keeping our head down, thinking that if we do what he says, it will get better. Or we’re trying to fight it. That’s not right. You can’t do this to me. You need to go to therapy. I’m gonna explain this to you. Those are the two categories that resistance falls under, but it could fall under any form of resistance. But because neither of those things work, the victims need safety strategies.
What safety strategies do is they enable you to resist in a way that you’re not doing what he wants, so he can’t exploit you. But you’re also not fighting him, so he can’t fight back, really. And so it’s this interesting middle place. Where it took me so long to figure it out is because I could not figure it out. Eight years post divorce with I’m still experiencing hidden abuse. He’s writing me messages almost every day about our children, medical neglect, all kinds of things going down.
I try to go to the court to say, hey, this is what’s happening. Please stop this. He got more custody due to that court case, and things just got worse. And so I prayed and developed these strategies, and they worked. And now I have full custody of my kids.
Penny: That’s great.
Education Is A Pathway To Seeing Hidden Abuse
Anne: So I think having safety strategies is important, but many people don’t understand that. They think, oh, everything would be fine between you and your ex. If you just take him seriously or, and it’s like. That’s not what’s going on here. It’s so much more.
Penny: I think it’s important to surround yourself with people who think highly of you and support you. Because the people who say those things again don’t get it. And it’s not helpful to hear. When you, even if you had left sooner, or done something different, you did the best you could. Nobody submits to abuse willingly, nobody. And so those people just don’t get that. And it’s not helpful.
Anne: In your healing, I love that getting more education was part of your healing process. Can you talk about how your college education helped you heal?
Penny: It helped in many ways. One, I was a waitress, right? I was financially at the bottom of the food chain. I couldn’t work enough hours in one place to make enough money to live in San Francisco at the time. It was expensive. So I worked two or three jobs at a time to make enough money to pay rent and have groceries and stuff.
I was much older than the people around me. I was living in a roommate situation with somebody five years younger than me. And all these people had college degrees, and the people I lived with were pursuing a graduate degree. They had what I looked at as cool and interesting jobs. So I said to myself, I need what they have. I need a college degree. And I started going.
Going To College Builds Self Esteem
Penny: And so it did two things for me. Number one is I vowed never again to depend on a man to support myself. I didn’t like living in a roommate situation, I wanted my own home that nobody could take away from me. Because now this was two homes, one I left home at 16. I ran away from home, so that’s one home lost. And second, I left my marriage and left my home and everything in it to my husband, my ex husband.
So that was two homes I lost, and I vowed I would never lose another home. So the college degree, first of all, as I started accruing classes, I could only take two or three classes at a time. Because I worked during the day and went to school at night. I started getting A’s and B’s. Going to college built my self esteem.
And I went to school with other adults who were also working during the day and going to school at night. Everybody had a different story. Some people were immigrants. Some people just didn’t have the money to go to school during the day. They were married, and now they’re going back to college. So it boosted my self esteem and my value, my thinking about how smart I was.
And number two, I was able to work in finance with a college degree, which is a rewarding career that allowed me to make enough money to own a house. And eventually, I remarried and have a partner who shares expenses with me. But had that not happened, I could maintain this lifestyle on my own. And so that was my goal.
Balancing Education & Responsibilities
Penny: And it created the college degree, created financial independence and huge self-esteem for me. And since then, got a master’s degree. And so again, graduating for a second time is huge. It’s a huge honor, thrill, and achievement. And I’m proud of that. It took a lot of work. It took a lot of time, sweat, loss of sleep, and loss of money, right? Because college costs money. It wasn’t free.
I also paid for it out of my own income, as opposed to taking out loans, which was pretty important nowadays because student loans can really create financial problems in the future.
Anne: That’s wonderful. For women who doubt themselves, they’re listening to this podcast and thinking, great, good for you, Penny. You did this. But I’m never going to do that. I have kids, they’re little, or I have this going on. And what type of encouragement might you give them?
Penny: I would say yes, I was lucky in that or unlucky. I was unable to bear children. I didn’t have children when I went through this. So that was the good luck, bad luck, right? Bad luck. I couldn’t have children. And also good luck, I didn’t have children. I was able to go to school at night. I didn’t have any responsibilities besides getting up for work the next morning.
But I would tell them that to find a way or wait until the kids are older and all in school. And see if they can find an online program that they could take maybe one class at a time.
Steps To Improve Your Life After Hidden Abuse
Penny: And even if it takes you 10 years to graduate college, if you can do one class at a time. And start accruing credits and grades, A’s, B’s and C’s, and improve the C to an A and B to an A. You’ll start feeling such a boost of self-esteem and pride. And say to yourself, I’m a quarter way through college. I’m a halfway through college. I’m three quarters of the way, or even a certificate.
Like maybe some colleges offer like certificates. That’s maybe an 18 month program for, I don’t know, dental hygienist or nurses aid or something like that. Some certificates then allow you to move up the food chain financially and get a respectable position. Maybe in a large organization that provides benefits. So you might have to shelve it now if you have little children dependent on you and can’t afford daycare. But when they get to school, you could do that.
And I think you could also go to your community and say, Hey, can we do a trade? Can you watch my kids this night so I could go to class? And I’ll watch your kids that night, so you can go to bingo, right? So there’s always a way to do it. It gets easier when the kids get older, I think. But make it your goal, set your mind on it, and don’t stop until you have that goal. Your certificate, your associate’s degree, or your bachelor’s degree.
Anne: And even if it’s not school, like you said, like a radiologist tech or something like that, or just a job, even if it’s not school.
Believing In A Better Future
Anne: I think the thing that breaks my heart the most is when victims feel like, and for good reason. They can’t do anything about their situation. And it’s a fine line between victim blaming, which we do not do here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and letting victims know that having experienced hidden abuse is not your fault. Nothing about the situation is your fault, and it has nothing to do with you. There are things that you can do that will improve your life.
They’re not going to change him. They have nothing to do with him. But you can take tiny steps. I talk about those in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. There are tiny little baby steps that you can take that are free, that are just minute. But I think that’s why some people accidentally victim blame. Because they realize, yeah right, there’s nothing she can do to stop him from harming her or her kids.
She can even get divorced, and he can continue to do that. And so how can we help her make her way to safety? And most people don’t have an answer for that. They can’t figure it out, except you need to do this differently. Rather than realizing that some safety strategies are simply because someone’s never heard it before. And they didn’t know it was possible or they didn’t feel it was possible for them.
And so the thing I want to let everyone know is that there is a better life possible for you. I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know how that’s going to come to be. But I want women to believe it’s possible.
Processing What I Learned
Anne: Because when women believe safety is possible, they believe they can improve their lives somehow. And believe they can heal trauma from hidden abuse and readily apparent abuse. That is when the magic happens, when they start taking steps to improve their lives. And also start taking steps to get themselves out of a situation that they absolutely did not cause and had nothing to do with them in the first place.
Penny: Yep, I agree.
Anne: Is there anything else you wanted to cover?
Penny: I would love to mention to your listeners that I wrote a memoir of surviving both an abusive marriage and abusive childhood. And how I made a recovery, became successful, happy, and rebuilt my life. It’s called Redeemed, a Memoir of a Stolen Childhood, by Penny Lane, and available wherever you buy books.
It’s inexpensive, and available at most libraries. So I’d love them to look at that, and I hope to inspire people to make some choices. And to know that I’m nobody special. I’m just a kid from Queens, a runaway from Queens, and that if I could do it, they can do it too.
Anne: Yeah, thank you. And to hear her story on the podcast was amazing too. She only told a small portion of it, and hearing her whole story and how far she’s come in, her memoir would be awesome. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom accrued over the years in thinking about this. And it’s so inspiring to talk to victims who have taken something so difficult and made it into something beautiful.
Encouragement To Move Forward
Penny: Yeah, I think it is possible, and I want to tell your listeners that once you start making the baby steps, to stand up for yourself and change your own life. And to stand up to people who abuse you, oppress you, verbally attack you or denigrate you. You will start feeling a power and strength in your soul that you’ve never felt before. And so I encourage you to start taking those steps. Because it’s the beginning of change.
Anne: That’s awesome. Thank you so much for talking with me today, Penny.
Penny: You’re very welcome. I wish all your viewers well and happiness and safety
How To Start To Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story
Mar 18, 2025
Is it possible to heal from emotional abuse and betrayal trauma? Everyday, brave women resist in a variety of ways. Penny shares her story of how she resisted abuse and finally was able to heal from emotional abuse.
Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today to share your story with other women who have endured the same type of emotional and psychological abuse and begin healing from emotional abuse TODAY.
Anne: I have Penny Lane on today’s episode. She’s a writer, wife, and mother with an insatiable passion for life and books. Originally from Queens, she loves being outdoors. Cycling, hiking, traveling, and connecting to and inspiring people.
She has a master’s degree in industrial and organizational psychology from Golden State University. And in her spare time, she helps underserved youth learn to read, apply to college and find jobs.
Penny’s Journey Healing From Emotional Abuse And Helping Others
Anne: Her book, Redeemed, A Memoir of a Stolen Childhood, she recounts how she was pressured into marriage and endured years of forced confessions, Salem style accusations, secretive disciplinary actions, and excommunication. Penny finally reached her breaking point, and we’re going to talk about her story today. Welcome, Penny.
Penny: Thank you for having me.
Anne: Why do you feel it’s important for you to speak out about your abuse and write this memoir?
Penny: For one, I feel compelled to write it. Because I met a lot of people who have childhood trauma of different sorts and they tend to be ashamed of it. And the opposite is actually true. When we talk about it is when we begin to heal from emotional abuse, find relief, solace and community.
I think it is important to write my story to remove some of the stigma involved with abuse or trauma. It will help others heal from emotional abuse as well.
Anne: You were coerced into marrying your husband. Can you talk about the abuse that led to that and then also the abuse that you experienced from him?
No Opportunity To Heal From Emotional Abuse From Childhood
Penny: I was a 16 year old runaway when I met my husband. He was my boss. I worked at an IHOP as a waitress and he quickly saw that I was a very hard worker. He promoted me and then took me out on dates . Because I was a runaway, you know, it was basically living with a family and paying rent. I had no time to heal from the emotional abuse from my upbringing.
Pretty soon he said, why don’t you move in with me? Then I was working for him and living with him. I didn’t have any friends. I didn’t have any family because I was a runaway. He started asking me to work more hours. At first I said yes, because he paid me a little bit extra and I made a lot of money waitressing. It was great.
But then he wouldn’t take no for an answer. Let’s say I worked three double shifts in a row. Even though I was 16, it’s exhausting to be on your feet in a very fast moving restaurant for 12 hours, 14 hours a day. I tried to say, no. I’m too tired. Get someone else. And he’d say, this wasn’t a question. You need to get to work. Be there in five minutes or I’m coming to pick you up in five minutes.
Manipulation and Control
Anne: How old was he?
Penny: He was six years older than me. He was 23, he left college, and was a restaurant manager for four or five years before I met him. So he was managing a staff of 30 or 40 people in a very busy, high revenue restaurant in a busy location.
And he was domineering. A little while after we started dating, he started disappearing and I didn’t know where he was. The girls I worked with said, Oh, he’s got another girlfriend, blah, blah, blah. You know, I didn’t think that was true. Half of you doesn’t believe and half of you does.
Religious Pressure
Penny: So one time I went along with him to where he was going, because he said he was going to church. I thought, this guy gambles, drinks, curses and I didn’t think he was a very honest guy. And I didn’t think he would possibly be going to church. So I went along with him.
And he had indeed gone to church. He went to a very fundamentalist, Bible believing, evangelical type church. This was in the 70’s, and it was quite emotionally wrought. The services were long and drawn out. At the end of the service, there was a call to walk the aisle, to accept Jesus as your personal savior.
I wanted nothing to do with that. I thought it was totally weird. Besides, I had just run away from home. I didn’t want to belong to something else. I wanted to be free.
Anne: Were you raised religious at all?
Penny: No, I was born Catholic and communion at 12, under duress. I didn’t know anything. We didn’t really do anything. else.
Forced Conversion
Penny: So, long story short, once I went to the church, he would ask me each time he went. He went Wednesdays, Thursdays and twice on Sundays. He would just wait for me at the restaurant and say, okay, we’re going to church. I’d get in the car with him and we’d go. I wasn’t really given a choice .
I went two, three weeks of this, going three or four times a week. People started pressuring me to accept Jesus and the story is very compelling. I’m sure you and your readers know this. It’s don’t you want to be loved forever? Yes, of course. Who doesn’t? Don’t you want to have a forever family?
Don’t you want to have God’s love? Well, the answer to all of that is yes. I didn’t feel loved. Don’t you want to belong? Of course. I didn’t belong anywhere. Didn’t belong in my family. I didn’t have a family at the moment. So eventually I gave in to the emotional pressure of accepting Jesus and I walked the aisle
Questioning Free Will
Anne: At the time, did you feel like you were doing it of your own free will or at the time were you like, I don’t really want to do this, but in order to stay in his good graces, I have to do this. It’s hard to identify the effects of spiritual abuse. Can you talk about a bit of your thought process at the time?
Penny: At the time I thought I was doing it for my own free will. But look, I was 17. And I was a runaway, working for this man, living with this man. I thought that he loved me. I loved him and this is what he’s doing with his life. In hindsight, I don’t know if it was really free will or if it was emotional manipulation and pressure.
Because I knew that if I didn’t do this, I would have to walk away from the whole package. Leave him, my job, my living arrangement. And remember I was 17 and I didn’t know how to negotiate in the world. I didn’t know how to find an apartment or find a new job.
Anne: This is also your first experience with religion.
Penny: Yes, and he is my second boyfriend. I had a boyfriend while I was going through high school and I broke up with him because he wasn’t ambitious enough. Then I started working at the IHOP and I met this man. Though here’s the interesting thing that happened. It was a bait and switch.
Abusive Restrictions
Penny: At first it was all lovey dovey and Jesus loves you and you’re part of this forever family. But pretty soon the pastor’s wife and the other women in the church pulled me aside. And said, you can’t dress like that here. And again, I was 17. It was the seventies. We wore blue jeans, platform sandals, high heels, lots of makeup, long shaggy hair, and tight clothes.
That’s what we wore, and that’s all I had. And all of a sudden, I couldn’t dress that way anymore. I had to wear skirts and I couldn’t wear makeup or wear less makeup.
Anne: Only at church or all the time?
Penny: Well, they talked to me about it at church. I really kind of didn’t have any other life. I worked in the restaurant, and I had a uniform. Then I went to church. We didn’t really do anything else. Because previously his life was drinking and going out to eat and drinking. We didn’t do that anymore because he stopped drinking and he stopped smoking.
He didn’t pressure me outside of church, but at church I was required. And I kept arguing with the pastor and saying, you guys didn’t tell me this. Like, I don’t want to change. I like this and I liked that. It was a lot. And let’s fast forward three or four months. The pastor said, I want to meet with you guys on Friday night at my house.
And so of course I was told I was off work and went to the pastor’s house and the pastor made me wait in the living room. He took my boyfriend into his study and they were gone about 10 minutes, maybe more. When he came out, my boyfriend looked very troubled.
Engagement Under Duress
Penny: He looked preoccupied. And he said, Penny, will you marry me? We’re living in sin and I can’t live in sin anymore. So will you marry me?
He had talked to me about that before. My boyfriend had said to me like three or four visits after I got saved. He said, you know, we’re living in sin, right? I really didn’t know what he meant because I didn’t really have a concept of sin or hell or heaven, even though they talked about it at the church.
I wasn’t absorbing it. Like my little 17 year old brain was looking at people and looking at clothes and looking at the guitar player and looking at the piano. I wasn’t able to comprehend that. So it meant nothing to me. And I didn’t feel guilty. Like, I hadn’t been a, what I would call a terrible sinner, right?
I know now, because I’ve read the Bible, that like any sin, even jealousy is sin. At the time, I didn’t even think sleeping with your boyfriend was sin. I kind of knew it was wrong, but I didn’t equate it to sin. I didn’t feel any guilt in my heart whatsoever. However, unbeknownst to me, because he didn’t tell me yet, that my boyfriend did.
He had been stealing from his boss, he had gambled, he had drank and slept around. He felt very guilty. And so he really absorbed this Christian thing and became all in from the minute he got saved. He immediately quit drinking and quit smoking cold turkey. And that wasn’t the case for me. So then we have this meeting with the pastor.
Healing From Emotional Abuse While In Bible College
Penny: He comes out and he says, will you marry me? Nobody twisted my arm physically, but again, I knew in that moment that if I didn’t say yes, I was out. I was out of a place to live, a job and out of the church.
I thought I loved him at the time and I didn’t see a lot of dangerous signals yet. Again, I’m 17. The big thing was he didn’t beat me. So I assumed I was safe. We got engaged and we started planning a wedding. The church was very, very heavily involved. Very heavily, from the get go. I did end up finding another apartment and moving out.
https://youtu.be/JOgZyAWjul8
So I didn’t live with him anymore after that. The church would talk to us about things like birth control. And again, I’m 17, and I’m thinking, Are you kidding me? If we can’t use birth control, I could have a baby a year for the next 20 years. I said, this is ridiculous. I was pushing back and I was pushing back so much that the pastor said to me, you have a rebellious spirit. We need to send you to Bible school.
Increasing Pressure & Control
Anne: I’ve heard this before. You have a rebellious spirit thing,
Penny: So they sent me away to Bible school, literally. And you know what? I didn’t mind going because the pastor was overbearing and my then fiance, became overbearing. Because the way he looked at the world was different than the way I look at the world now.
He looked at the world like the pastor said, therefore you need to do it. No free will. No your own relationship with God, even though that’s what they preach. He became like my spiritual director and enforcer. So I had to do whatever the pastor said. Whether I wanted to or not, whether I was ready to or not.
And the pastor made me do some really strange things that I did not want to do. But again, under pressure from my boyfriend, here’s an example. The Bible says, children obey your parents. Well, that’s great when you’re living with your parents, maybe, but what happens if your parents beat you? So the pastor made me go back to my stepmother and ask her forgiveness for running away. Now I still had no opportunity to heal from emotional abuse from childhood, and this kind of advice compounded the problem.
Anne: Even though you ran away because your stepmother was beating you.
Submitting To Husband’s Abuse
Penny: Beating me, mean to me, calling me names, withholding food. I was humiliated. And again I knew, if I don’t do this I have to walk away. So I did it. He even said, if she wants, you need to move back home. And I thought, you’ve got to be kidding me. I have been gone a year and a half. I have my own apartment, job and bank account. I’m engaged. Are you kidding? Nope.
They weren’t kidding. So luckily, my stepmother said, no, I don’t have to move back that I would disrupt the family. I had a little sister and I’ve hurt my sister by running away. I wasn’t able heal from emotional abuse from childhood while still being abused. So luckily I didn’t have to do it, but that’s the kind of thing I mean about domineering and overbearing and making me do things.
Now, as a middle aged woman, I look back and say. Why didn’t that tell me right then and there? Who’s going to be in charge of the relationship? That whatever my husband will say will be right. Not whatever I feel in my heart is right, but I didn’t see that. So I go away to Bible college for a year and it’s a wonderful, wonderful experience.
Marriage & Moving Away
Penny: During this time, things change at the IHOP. My husband quits and opens up a restaurant. The restaurant ends up failing. Now he’s out of a job and he’s out of money. He gets another job at IHOP, but it’s in Maryland. I’m thrilled to move away from this overbearing pastor. I finished Bible college. We get married after Bible college by that same pastor and immediately move away.
Penny: I loved it, and the reason I loved it is because it was in a beautiful, beautiful setting in upstate New York. I lived in an all girls dorm. I’ve never had friendships with girls my age before because I wasn’t allowed to.
Anne: You have this good experience where you’re safe, you’re housed, have food. You’re getting an education, even though it’s something you didn’t expect.
Penny: The college is a lot less focused on rules. I mean, there are rules. For instance at Bible colleges, Christian colleges in that time, I don’t know how it is today. You couldn’t wear pants. Even though it was winter, we wore long wool skirts over boots. It gets really cold in upstate.
We had long coats. And there’s rules like that, but you can live with that, right? Because of the rest of it. You’re having a great time, studying and you’re going on little field trips. In the summer, you’re a camp counselor at a Christian camp. So it’s fun. It’s fun to be around other girls my age, something I’ve never had before.
I graduate, we get married, we move away, I’m a New Yorker so I dress up. I’m back to wearing jeans and high heels and makeup and pretty dresses. I’m myself.
Struggles With Abuse In Maryland
Penny: We live in Maryland for about three years, and it’s rocky. It’s not an easy marriage because he’s domineering.
Everything is his way. I feel lost but I don’t know what to do because the church teaches that divorce is sin. And further they teach that if you deliberately do something that you know is sin, like divorce. You may not even be a Christian at all, which is scary, right?
Because if you’re a Christian, which I thought I was at the time, then you’re afraid of hell. You’re afraid of displeasing God. It’s a mind game. They differentiate between accidental sin, like, Oh, I fell into temptation. I committed adultery. That would be accidental sin.
Anne: Which is not accidental at all. That is 100 percent on purpose. Your penis just doesn’t fly out of your pants. In this context when there is this dynamic biblical submission often becomes abuse.
Penny: Right. But that’s what they teach. And I’m sure you’ve heard that before.
Anne: Oh, 100%. And then what? You just trip and then you accidentally have it with, no! It’s misogynistic because it always benefits the man. The man, it’s always accidental. But women, it’s always on purpose.
Penny: Right.
Religious Manipulation Continues
Penny: At some point, We meet up with this guy who runs a Bible study in his home. He’s in Bible college in Maryland. My then husband is an acolyte of this pastor, right?
Anne: What does acolyte mean in that context?
Penny: He loves this pastor and is a follower of this pastor. He thinks he’s the greatest. This pastor finally graduates from Bible college and he tries to get ordained. And he’s having a very hard time getting ordained. Which should have been a red flag, but it wasn’t.
Finally, this pastor finds a sect that will ordain him. He gets assigned to some rural church in the middle of very rural Michigan in a town of 200. A church that’s been around like a hundred years. It’s a handful of old ladies that are just keeping this church alive. The pastor moves away and my husband misses him so much. He arranges a trip to visit this pastor. I think, great, it’s just a one week trip.
We drive to Michigan from Maryland. We go to visit and I’m out of my element. I’ve never been in a place so rural. before. The church is weird and it’s small and I’m uncomfortable. I grew up in a city and these people are people that have never left their hometown. They’ve maybe never left the state. They’re just different. Nothing wrong with them, just different from me. So we go back to Maryland.
Unexpected News
Penny: I go back to work and I’m happy. I’m focused on being a good wife. I don’t think about church. We’re visiting different churches every weekend. All of a sudden the pastor who lives in Michigan, his wife calls and says, Hey Penny, I found you guys an apartment.
I said, what? She said, Oh yeah, your husband told me to look for an apartment for you guys, that you guys are moving. He hadn’t asked me and he hadn’t told me. So I’m very upset because I did not want to move. I knew that place would kill me. I knew it was too weird for me I didn’t want to move, but he’s making plans.
He said, listen, I’m moving. So you need to get your head around this. I’ve given my notice to my boss. We’re moving in two months and I don’t know what to do.
Seeking Advice & Rationalizing Abuse
Penny: And I remember talking to his, brother’s wife. So my sister-in-law, and she’s also born again, Christian, but she lives in New Jersey and she’s an independent woman. Back then I would have called myself a weak person, because I had no freedom as a child.
I hadn’t healed from my childhood trauma. So healing from emotional abuse seemed daunting. I was scared and timid, and had never lived on my own. My sister-in-law, on the other hand, was a strong woman. She went into her marriage as a strong woman. She was already a Christian when she met my brother-in-law, and she kind of called the shots for her life.
When she got married, for example, she said, I don’t want children. In the evangelical church, that’s huge. That’s a big no no. Because that’s your job as a woman, to be a good mother and keep house. So, I trusted her. I called her up and said, what do I do? I don’t remember exactly what she said. But she somehow, in a way that I can’t even remember, talked me into it. By saying, look, he’s your husband.
This is part of God’s plan. You think you won’t like it, but God’s plan is always wonderful. And you’re probably going to like it once you get there. So I think you should go. That sort of thing. She didn’t pressure me. She didn’t threaten or ultimatum. There was no hell, nothing like that, but somehow she made it okay. I don’t remember how, probably cause I was traumatized.
Struggling In A New Life
Penny: So we moved and uprooted everything we knew. And it was very weird. I was very young. We got married when I was 18, three years later, I’m 21. And we moved to this place where everybody is at least 10 years older than me.
And they had never been to college. The women never worked outside the home. They got married to their childhood sweethearts at 17, 18 or 19. And now they had a bunch of kids. And the area was very depressed. People didn’t have a lot of money, they literally stretched a giant jar of peanut butter week to week.
It was very dependent on the auto industry, so people were needy. People were very committed to the church, because really that’s all they had. I think I’m judging here. I’m making a judgment. Whereas I always looked at things wide open. Like why aren’t we going anywhere on weekends? We lived an hour and a half from Ann Arbor and two hours from Detroit. But nobody ever went to see museums, art or theater. Nothing. I didn’t fit in.
Questioning The Church
Penny: And I started questioning things again. I didn’t like what was being taught. They were teaching some really weird stuff. The church becomes your authority and you have to ask the church’s permission before you do anything. Like buy a house, go on vacation or to have another baby.
I was trying to have a baby at the time. And instead of encouraging me to have a baby. They were having me babysit people’s children while they went away for a few days. Kind of to teach me how hard it was to have a baby.
Anne: But like, didn’t they ultimately want you to be a parent?
Penny: It’s hard to say now, yes and no. But I had been trying for three years and I was not getting pregnant.
Anne: Oh, maybe they’re trying to “make you feel better”.
Penny: Or here’s the thing, like in the church, everybody has a gift. And wouldn’t it be convenient if I had the gift of serving and I don’t have my own children to take care of? Because then I could serve the church a lot. I could serve other people in the church.
Anne: Be people’s free babysitter.
Penny: Right.
Struggles With Conformity
Penny: Some people I get along with in the church and some people I don’t. And we typically had somebody over for Sunday dinner, or they had us over. We were supposed to fellowship and meet with people and have coffee with them. We weren’t supposed to have relationships with anybody outside the church.
So none of us had friends outside the church, unless of course you had family there, which we didn’t. It ended up that you only spent time with people in the church. I was not happy, but I was doing my thing. I was doing all the reading the Bible, going to prayer, fellowshipping with the women, helping out in the church and that kind of stuff.
A Wedding Trip
Penny: And at some point, a cousin of mine was getting married on the East Coast and I had asked to go.
Anne: You asked the church to go?
Penny: I asked my husband to go and my husband went and asked the church, went and asked the pastor.
Anne: Wow, that’s intense, ok.
Penny: Yeah. The pastors came over and met with the pastor and the elder came over and met with me and they said, Penny, why do you want to go to this church on the East Coast?
You know, I didn’t tell them the real reason. It’s boring as heck here. But I just said, My cousins, it’s fun, I haven’t been away, haven’t been back. I haven’t seen them and I want to go.
Anne: Wait, why do you want to go to this church? You’re just going for like one day, right? For the wedding. You’re not like becoming a member of this other church, right?
Penny: Oh, it wasn’t even at a church. It was just a wedding, a cousin’s wedding somewhere on the East coast. Right.
Anne: Wow. Why do you want to go to this wedding? Okay.
Penny: What they said was you pray about it. If the Lord tells you to go, that’s fine with us. Well, of course I didn’t hear voices and I didn’t hear a yay or nay. And so I decided, well, I didn’t hear no. So let’s go. So we. Packed up the car, we drove, it’s, you know, eight hour drive or something back to the east coast from Michigan.
Set Backs In My Ability To Heal From Emotional Abuse
Penny: We get there, we’re there for the whole weekend. We stay with cousins or grandmother, I can’t remember. And we had a great time. But as soon as we start driving, getting close to Michigan again, I start feeling this uneasy feeling in my stomach. Like, Oh, I wonder if I’m going to get in trouble for this. Sure enough, there’s a knock on the door.
The day after we get back, the pastor and the elder come and they say, Penny, tell us about your trip. I look over at my husband and he’s looking at the floor. I’m like, well, we went, we had a great time. We danced, we socialized and they say, we don’t believe you. Like, what do you mean? You don’t believe me.
He said, we don’t believe you had a good time. I said, I had a really good time. And he said, are you sure you didn’t just try to have a good time? I said, no. And they said, we think you’re lying. We think God told you not to go. So we think you’re lying about going and having fun.
Excommunication & Husband’s Abuse
Penny: So we’re going to excommunicate you. We’re going to discipline you is the word they use.
Anne: Did they think you went somewhere else?
Penny: No.
Anne: So this is just like a huge manipulation thing. They know you actually went.
Penny: My husband went with me and my husband’s in the room. Yeah.
Anne: And he doesn’t stand up for you?
Penny: Nope
Anne: Or defend you?
Penny: Nope. He defends everyone but me. As a matter of fact, he must’ve called the elders behind my back. To say, We’re back.
Anne: He was abusive. We know he was abusive, even though you didn’t know it at the time, right? He’s emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive. What do you think was his abusive reason for calling the elders on you and getting you excommunicated?
Penny: I think he thought that it was his job to keep me holy and keep me righteous. Therefore, anything that the pastor thought was wrong?
Anne: But you hadn’t done anything wrong.
Penny: That’s correct.
Anne: He was just trying to put you down. I’m just trying to think of his abusive reason. He goes to this wedding with you and he sees you happy and dancing. He sees, Oh my word, she could notice that I’m abusing her and that she’s so exploited and sad. I don’t want her to recognize when she’s happy. I’m going to try and shut this down. Maybe something like that. We don’t know.
I so wish I could have given you The Living Free Workshop at this point in your life, I made it so women could recognize when someone is manipulating them and help them get to safety.
Isolation & Depression Further Harm My Ability To Heal From Emotional Abuse
Penny: Possible. So the elder says, you’re on discipline, we’re disciplining you. Discipline means you don’t talk to anybody in the church. You don’t call them, say hi to them on the street, meet with them or come to services. You’re excommunicated. You stay home or you stay away from anybody in the church and we’ll get back to you when we think you’re repentant.
So here I am, we have a tiny, tiny apartment, it’s a studio apartment and I’m an outgoing person. I’m an extrovert, and I’m left on my own. My husband leaves for work in the morning, and you can clean the whole apartment in half an hour. I wash the dishes, do the laundry, and do the shopping. I mow the lawn, and do all the stuff.
Luckily I love to read. So I go to the library, but I’m heartbroken. I’m crestfallen and depressed. I stay in bed most of the day. Because this has happened to me and I don’t know how it happened.
I didn’t lie, I didn’t know how to change it. So I’m powerless and stuck. Again, I don’t even think of leaving at this point, right? Because now I’m three years into a marriage, into the church. I’m a good Christian and believe what I’m taught. I believe the Bible but yet, God’s not helping me
Anne: And you’re exactly where they want you.
Penny: I’m depressed and I’m not eating and I’m not sleeping. Again I call my sister-in-law or my sister-in-law calls me. She must have heard about it and she calls me. And she says, Oh Penny, you know, we’re all in sin one way or the other we’re all in sin.
Confession & Return
Penny: So just confess to the elders that you lied and get it over with and they’ll take you back. It’ll be fine And so I say to myself, Oh my God, I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. That’s what I’m going to do. So I do it. I tell my husband, I’m ready to confess. He goes and tells the elders. A couple of days later, the elders come back to me and they come to the house and they’re all smiling with these fake smiles.
Cause there’s a verse in the Bible that says that there’s more joy in heaven over the one son who comes back to the faith and the hundred non believers that convert. I don’t remember the exact verse, but it’s something like that. So they say, we forgive you. And we’re so happy. This is midweek so stay away from the church . And We’ll invite you back to the church at the Sunday service.
Continued Abuse From Public Humiliation Harms My Ability To Heal
Penny: And what I didn’t know, which they didn’t tell me at the time, was that when they invited me back to the Sunday service, I basically sat outside until the elders brought me in.
And then they said, congregation, we have something to tell you. We have something to rejoice in. Our sister Penny has repented of her sins and she’s been in sin for a month. Thank God, praise God. She’s repented. She’s come back to us and the Bible tells us to welcome her with open arms.
Well, a couple of people in the church stood up, a husband and wife team that were kind of newish to the church. They’d been there maybe a couple months. They got up and they said, this is wrong. And they got up and they walked out.
Anne: Were they like, we don’t want her back? So that’s why they left?
Penny: No, I think that they were upset that this happened to me.
Anne: Oh, okay. So they were on your side. Good for them.
Penny: Everybody else in the church was dead silent. Nobody said a word and everybody’s staring at me. I had no idea this was going to happen.
In those days we sat in a circle, so a great big circle. Imagine we were in like a a ballroom. We were renting an old, old, old hotel in this town, a big giant ballroom. We’re all sitting in a circle all facing each other and everybody’s staring at me aghast. He doesn’t tell them what the sin is.
Psychological Abuse
Penny: So you can imagine people are thinking, was it adultery? Was it child abuse? Does she need to heal from emotional abuse? Was it theft? Is she a gambler? Is she a drinker? Does she take drugs? Nobody knew, right?
Anne: I just want to pause here for a second to point out why this is happening, not necessarily to you in particular, but just in general. It’s psychological abuse to try and force someone to think that something happened when it didn’t. And then they also want to ruin someone’s reputation. It’s so hard to heal from emotional abuse when you can’t get the right help and are still being abused.
So they could be like, okay, the sin was you jaywalked, but we’re not going to tell people that . And we’re just going to leave it up to everybody’s imagination in order to ruin your reputation and harm you. Wow.
Penny: it was really horrific.
When You Are Living In Fear You Can’t Heal From Emotional Abuse
Penny: And then here’s the other thing that happens to me as a person. On the inside because I didn’t do anything wrong to begin with, and they told me I did. From that moment on I walked on eggshells every minute of every day. I could never relax because I never knew if I was doing something wrong.
And I didn’t know if I was lying because if somebody said to me, how are you doing today, Penny? But really I was nervous in my stomach, but I didn’t want to say that. Then I would run back to that person and say, I’m okay, but I’m nervous in my stomach and I didn’t want to lie to you. I was constantly going back to everybody and correcting myself. I looked like a fool. Now people don’t know if they trust me.
Anne: I want to point out, this is what an abuser would do to undermine your confidence to exploit you more or control you more. It is a purposeful tactic that someone would do to stop them from healing from emotional abuse.
Penny: I did not know that at the time.
Anne: Right. I’m just pointing that out to my listeners. So that if they’re like, Oh, emotional abuse is happening to me right now it’s impossible to heal. It is a purposeful thing to undermine someone’s confidence.
Penny: this went on for another couple of years, living in fear and turmoil and insecurity. Something else happened and I was accused and disciplined again, for a very long time, for a year. I was really broken as a person, suicidal, very broken. And when it came time, the elders decided enough.
Heal From Emotional Abuse By Realizing Independence
Penny: They said, you either leave or you confess. I decided to leave and that meant leaving the church. I left my husband and I left the state. Clearly I was a completely broken person. I was 31 by that point. And I basically had to start life all over again. Meaning I didn’t have a job, money, degree or career. I was scared of everybody, I thought my life was over at 31. Nobody would love me and I would just be a street beggar and maybe a waitress.
But that’s not what happened. Because once I was free I became a full human being . It’s been a powerful, powerful thing. Once I began to heal from emotional abuse, I became a highly successful and highly paid salesperson. I have a master’s degree and undergrad degree, am highly respected and retired early. I adopted a son, have a wonderful husband and home. It took a lot of work and it’s still work.
Anne: If you could go back to that 17 year old that you were and talk to yourself when you’re working at that IHOP. What would you say to yourself? When you weren’t yet asking the question, “am I being spiritually abused?”
Penny: I would say don’t do it. There are many people in the world. He’s not the only one. This isn’t your only job in the world. There’s many jobs in the world. You don’t need them. You’re stronger, you’re wiser, you’re smarter. You can do it on your own.
Healing From Emotional Abuse And Getting Your Life Back
Anne: That’s what I want to share with our listeners is I don’t know where your journey to psychological and emotional safety will take you. It’s so different for every single person. But the important thing is that you are brave and you are strong and you can do it. The abusers want you to think that you can’t heal from emotional abuse.
They want you to think you’re dependent on them. They want you to think that you’re not smart or incapable. And that is not true. You are brave and strong. You are capable. When you heal from emotional abuse, you can do anything. So Penny, thank you for your story, and wish you well as you heal after emotional abuse. I appreciate you coming on today’s episode.
Penny: It’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Making The Decision To Divorce – Caroline’s Story
Mar 11, 2025
Making the decision to divorce is a challenging time for any woman who is facing her husband’s addiction or emotional abuse.
Caroline’s journey began with awareness of her husband’s secret explicit online materials use, a revelation that unfolded over the course of their relationship. Initially, she had difficulty articulating the reasons behind her divorce.
Many victims of betrayal and abuse can identify red flags after they’re already married or pursuing separation or divorce. Often, those who don’t understand abuse will covertly blame victims for identifying red flags “too late” or choosing to “ignore” red flags. It’s important to understand that most abusers are master-manipulators and mimic healthy behaviors to lure victims in.
If you are now identifying red flags, please understand that it isn’t your fault for “not seeing them sooner.”
Anne: I have Caroline on the podcast today. She is a Betrayal Trauma Recovery client who recently made the decision to divorce. So we’ll talk to her about her experience.
Welcome Caroline. What is your response when people ask you why you divorced?
Caroline: Although I knew about my husband’s addiction from the beginning, I didn’t know what that entailed.
Anne: Is it a triggery experience to talk about it with people wondering why you got divorced?
Caroline: It’s definitely like a panic zone, because you don’t know how people react. Some people are educated on addiction, and others believe it’s normal. So the reactions vary. It’s only been in the past few months that I feel like I can actually say the word pornography when talking about my divorce.
Anne: You mentioned you knew about his use while you were dating. Or before you married. Did you see any other red flags?
Caroline: As I thought about it post divorce. I was surprised athow many silent red flags in my relationship there actually were. Some of those narcissistic traits were that our dates were always extremely lavish and expensive. And it seemed he just had untapped funds from the get go, date one.
He would hardly give me any time alone. And always stayed by me, knowing what I was up to, surprise visits. He would fake sick at work just to come see me. It seemed like he almost forced himself into my life. And he flattered me at the time, I thought, wow, this guy likes me. He’s so cute, he’s got all this money. He’s got a good job. But now I see it as him controlling and insecure, and kind of practicing those narcissistic traits.
The Illusion Of A Perfect Partner: Love Bombing
Caroline: Yeah, he was a strong member of his church until a few months before we met. And he said a lot about his inactivity in the church. He made a lot of excuses. Like how they treated him unfairly. He undermined his parents while still having them in the palm of his hand.
He constantly seeks praise and validation, down to like the littlest things. If he wiped off the counter, he would say, hey look, look what I did, I wiped off the counter. Just fed off of what other people thought of him constantly.
Anne: I was just thinking about my ex. He contacted some people in my life. Because he was trying to find information about filing taxes before we divorced while we separated. He said things like I love Anne so much. I need to make sure I do this for her. And how amazing he was for filing the taxes.
Like he felt like he needed tons of praise for just like everyday normal things. That literally he had to do, like if he hadn’t done it, he would have been breaking the law. And it’s like, you’re not going to get a ton of praise for filing your taxes. Every person has to do that. Like, I don’t know why you’re the hero for filing taxes. Women need education about narcissistic behaviors that is super important, especially if they are making the decision to divorce.
So that they can know, that was not a man being completely and totally in love with me. That is love bombing. That’s about them, not about me. This is an unsafe situation. I need to take a step back. Which is, what woman wouldn’t want to be love bombed.
The Mourning Process & Boundaries
Anne: We see that in romantic comedies. Our culture tells us that when you meet the right person, amazing things will happen. That amazing situation, meant for a romantic comedy, is like narcissistic love bombing.
Caroline: Yeah, exactly, I really saw him and me creating a family. And becoming a mother and him becoming a father. He talked about all sorts of different things when it came to family and being a major influence and support. To his own mom, who was a widow.
Many times where I saw an authentic reaction to what he was doing, sadness for what he had done. And then the next day it would be like that realization never happened. So I definitely believe he knew what was happening and what was going on. A lot of the mourning is because you do see their potential. Somebody told me during my decision to divorce, as I had many confusing and conflicting thoughts.
Because you feel like such a relief, but then you miss them and you mourn the loss of that potential in that person. You can see it so clearly after spending time with that person, and it’s so hard because you want to take them by the shoulders and shake them. And tell them, hey. I believe in you, see you, hear you and love you. You’ve got all this untapped potential right there.
One thing that helped incredibly with boundaries. Where before I thought of marriage as a free for all when it comes to each other’s feelings. Because well, you married him. But boundaries are good even inside a marriage to keep yourself safe.
Anne: Especially when you married someone who makes sad choices and you’re making the decision to divorce.
Caroline: Yes.
Regrets & Lessons Learned About The Decision To Divorce
Caroline: I wish I had known that addiction fuels other behaviors. I wish I had known more of the emotional and physical consequences of that addiction. I wish I had known to prioritize my needs and desires. And to have this lesser sense of urgency when it comes to getting married. That it would be okay to just take our time.
I think another big thing for me was that I didn’t need to settle just because he was showing interest in me. Instead, I wish I had realized that I can have everything I want in a man and deserve the full package.
Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, when we say the full package, what we mean is someone who is not abusive.
Caroline: Yeah, isn’t that ironic?
Anne: We’re not looking for a professional soccer player or an ex Navy SEAL, and a million dollar business. No, no, no, that’s not what we’re talking about. We are talking about a man with whom we can partner, who is not abusive.
Caroline: Yeah, for sure. Just somebody that’s on the same track that I am, you know, I want a lot out of my life.
Anne: So let’s talk about your age for a minute. We’ve had women on the podcast and BTR.ORG clients from all ages and situations. Caroline, how old are you?
Caroline: I just turned 22.
Anne: And how long were you married?
Caroline: Three years almost to the day. I was 18 when I married.
Anne: And no children now?
Caroline: No kids.
Healing Through Affirmations & Association With Others
Caroline: One of the biggest things that has helped me heal through my decision to divorce is affirmations. They are posted all over my apartment, just small things that remind me of who I am and where I want to be. Divorce does not define me, or that it wasn’t a failure either. I’ve also found it super helpful in the last little bit to share my story.
There are so many people my age who have been married for one to three years that are finding themselves in the same place in the neighborhood I grew up in. They’re between two years younger than me and two years older than me. There were 11 of us who are married, and six of us are now divorced. It’s been super helpful for me to reach out to them and ask how long it takes to heal from my husband’s emotional abuse and share our thoughts, feelings, and progress. And that’s been super helpful.
Caroline: So six of them are now divorced.
Anne: One thing I find concerning right now is that young people think that if they talk about it, they can somehow avoid it. That has not been my experience. In fact, many of the thousands and thousands of wives I’ve talked to, had many conversations with their boyfriends and fiancés about it. They users lie, conversation about it or asking the right questions will not lead us to the truth, usually.
The only thing that will lead us to the truth is observing their behaviors and getting in touch with what do I need? When do I feel safe? Who am I? Being in our own recovery space, so that we can observe those unhealthy behaviors in someone else.
Caroline: Yes
Finding Out The Truth Though Observing Behaviors & Boundaries
Anne: For example, many people think, well, if I am open and kind, and I don’t shame the person, then it will give them a better opportunity to tell the truth. I think that is the wrong way to go, because we’re still trying to “help” that person or manage that person. They literally need to be honest. Whether their wife or girlfriend is angry, happy, or sad, their honesty cannot, should not depend on the way their wife reacts.
Caroline: Absolutely.
Anne: And right now, when people talk about addiction, it is floating around that women have the responsibility to not be too angry. Or too shaming, or too this or that, and if they do that, great! Then he will open up, and that puts the blame of his lying on her where it does not belong. It is fully his responsibility to tell the truth, regardless of how she reacts.
Caroline: Yes, for sure.
Anne: Betrayal Trauma Recovery does not advocate for divorce. I did not want to make a decision to divorce. I felt strongly that I needed to set boundaries to be safe. So I set a very firm no contact boundary, and also didn’t file for divorce. I’m sure you’ve heard other people say, if you set these boundaries, you’re going to end up divorced. Like it’s your fault, rather than setting boundaries for safety. And if they still abuse you, it’s still their fault that the divorce is happening.
What do you say to people who might ask you. You’re divorced now, and you went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I guess, Betrayal Trauma Recovery believes in divorce. What would you say to them?
Support From Betrayal Trauma Recovery While Making The Decision To Divorce
Caroline: Well, my first reaction is laughing, because before I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, which is the best betrayal trauma support group. I definitely wanted to make things work. But I was exhausted and had put off scheduling for a long time, because I was nervous and wasn’t sure what was going to happen. The best thing that happened was that my Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach helped me identify my core values. So that all my decisions should be made based on those core values that I established.
It was very explicit that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not an advocate for divorce, but that we should also ensure that we’re in a safe situation. And so the decision to divorce came from me. In fact, when I told my Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach, she was surprised I made the decision to divorce.
Anne: And did you feel supported by your coach?
Caroline: Yes, I definitely felt support from her. The support was to help identify myself, work through and make progress. It was, you’re a strong woman. You can do anything that you put your mind to. And you know, that said it all. After talking with my coach for the first and second time, we talked about boundaries, and I came up with some boundaries that I was going to set with my ex husband. And once the boundaries were set in place, things took a different turn.
It made him upset, much more abusive, a different side to my ex-husband that I never had seen. And so to me, setting a simple boundary. We saw his true colors.
Anne: Was it shocking to you?
Caroline: Oh yeah, I had never seen him react that way, just completely livid. He’d never really yelled at me like that, but was throwing things.
I Didn’t Make Appointments Anymore & He Blew Up
Caroline: Just completely different than I had ever seen him before. And this wasn’t a boundary of no physical contact. We had been seeing a therapist who specializes in addiction. And the therapist told me that my ex-husband would have to make the appointments from here on out.
Because at that time, for months and months, I was the one making appointments and taking him. To the appointments, the therapist said nothing will change until he wants to do this. So, the boundary was set: You need to make your own appointments to see this therapist. That’s when he blew up.
Anne: When I realized my husband was as abusive as he was, and I hadn’t seen it as abuse, I was shocked. When I found out how abusive he was. And when I was managing him and when I was not setting boundaries, I don’t think I ever would have seen abusiveness. It sounds like that was a moment for you where you’re like, whoa, he’s abusive.
Caroline: This is a very simple thing. That’s all I’m asking you. And it was just chaos. Trying to ask him to do very simple things
Anne: Without being totally berated, yeah.
Caroline: That reminds me when I was barely discovering Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I was surfing around on your website to get some more information. And there was a list of behaviors and examples of gaslighting on your website. And consequently, I’m sitting at work in front of my computer and reading these.
Epiphanies About My Abusive Husband
Caroline: I just had the biggest epiphanies, every sentence listed, every bullet point was like yes, this is how I felt. I’ve never been able to put words to it. That’s the moment I decided, okay, something has to change. And I’ve got to get help to figure out what needs to happen and change. But I just remember reading those, it was huge for me.
And when people ask me about BTR.ORG or my divorce, and then they go into their own struggles with their spouse, who is a user, I always refer them to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s the same reaction I can see on their face. Every time it’s just, oh my goodness, this is putting into words what I’ve never been able to say.
Anne: I think it goes from knowing that your husband uses explicit material, being frustrated about it, and trying to figure that out. To realize that you’re in an abusive relationship. And maybe you will be making a decision to divorce.
Making The Decision To Divorce Even When You Don’t Know If He’s Abusive
Caroline: Yeah, I never would have classified it as an abusive relationship until then.
Anne: Yeah, so the shift from I’m worried about my husband. He uses explicit material, and it hurts me. To say he is abusive is one of the most traumatizing shifts in paradigm. But once that shift in paradigm happens, women are like, okay, so I need to set boundaries. Because all the love service and forgiveness will not help the situation.
Caroline: Right, absolutely.
Anne: You found Betrayal Trauma Recovery at 22. There are some women who find BTR.ORG at 40 after 20 years of marriage. There are some who find it at 50 after 30 years of marriage. Or women who find it after 2 or 3 divorces. What are you watching for in your future relationships?
Self-Care & Healing After Deciding To Divorce
Caroline: The biggest thing I watch for is how they treat me and themselves. How they take care of themselves and their sense of personal wellness. I definitely don’t have it like honed down yet. Because I still have belief issues or trust issues. How they interact with other people if they’re constantly seeking validation or having to be the center of the conversation, or reverting stories back to them, and interrupting people. The characteristics of narcissism are definitely what I look for.
Something I do regularly is write about my thoughts. I don’t hide from that place of asking the hard questions of myself, or facing the trauma. So if I am triggered, I like to come home at the end of the day and write about it. And sometimes I keep it, and sometimes I throw it away as a symbolic gesture. I’m done with you, done with this feeling. I notice that I’m much more self aware of my thoughts now that I decided to divorce.
You know, exercise and being outside have helped astronomically throughout the process of feeling whole again, able and strong, just staying connected to my feelings.
Anne: It sounds like also just staying connected to reality.
Caroline: Yeah.
Anne: Because to be with an active user who’s abusing you. You’re either always fighting with them, so there’s like this constant chaos. Or you sort of have to live in their reality, which is not reality. I remember one day I walked out of the house and was walking outside, and I looked up and felt the sun on my face. It felt so new. I looked at the birds, and I remember the birds flying by, and I remember looking at a tree. It was swaying.
Decision To Divorce: Healing Through Walking & Growing
Anne: And it was almost surreal. Like, is this real? This is reality. I just thought, wow, I’ve been living in this fog inside my house with this abusive situation. And my reality has been so skewed. And I started trying to do that too. Just walking outside, letting the sun be on my face. I garden, self care is on my list of what I’m doing now to heal and grow. I like the journey of it, and I’m okay. It’s a crazy journey. That I’m not doing fantastic at it, but at least I’m making small steps forward.
Caroline: Yeah.
Anne: Caroline, I know your mom has listened to the podcast and is familiar with Betrayal Trauma Recovery. So many of the things that you learned, she also knew because she listened to the podcast. How has that helped you as you’ve progressed in your healing, after deciding to divorce?
Caroline: Well, obviously the introduction to BTR.ORG by my mom was super helpful. I am forever grateful for the education my mom has about addiction. Because that’s what it boils down to. Gaining an education about what this addiction does, and having my mom there as a support, was super helpful. You know, being able to take the emotion out of the sadness that her daughter is going through, and looking at the facts, was helpful.
https://youtu.be/n4A7Kj52V2M
Mom’s Who Listen To The Podcast Understand More About Their Daughter’s Situation
Caroline: Nobody wants that to be their friend, their daughter, or their sister. For a brief moment, there was that reaction from my mom of, you need to keep trying. And then the next day she called me and said, honey, I was wrong. I’m sorry and I’m here for you, which she did only because of the education she has.
Anne: I wish everyone who was going through this had a mom who is also listening to the podcast.
Caroline: For sure…
Anne: Caroline, thank you for being here today. I’m so grateful that you found BTR.ORG.
Caroline: Thank you, Anne.
How To Protect Children From Online Abuse with Kristen Jenson
Mar 04, 2025
Did you know that it’s considered child abuse to expose a child to inappropriate media? Here’s how to protect children from online threats.
A child’s accidental exposure to online inappropriate material. It traumatizes children who view it. They need immediate trauma-focused care to process and heal. Trauma from exposure can affect children in many ways. Often, traumatized children experience:
Sleep disturbances including nightmares and insomnia
Mood swings and behavioral issues
Somberness, sadness
Preoccupation with sexuality
Fear and anxiety about safety
You Can Set Boundaries To Protect Young Kids From Online Threats
An example of a boundary that would protect women and children from the chaotic harm and abuse of exploitative media use. Is asking the user to relocate to a different living space. So that his material cannot harm anyone in the family.
You Can Be Proactive In Teaching Children About Online Harms
Often, children have a trauma response. All children exposed to it are abuse victims. They should be treated with compassion, respect, and the intentional care that any trauma victim would receive for abuse. In addition to trauma-focused care, women may find resources helpful in helping their children understand the truths about it. The book Good Pictures, Bad Pictures may help teach children about it.
Transcript: How To Protect Children From Online Abuse
Anne: I have a good friend on today’s episode. Her name is Kristen Jenson, and she’s the founder of Defend Young Minds, an organization that helps protect young kids from online threats by teaching them strategies and skills to use as they go about their lives.
Welcome, Kristen.
Kristen: Thanks, Anne. It’s great to be here with you.
Anne: My kids love your books. We have them all around our house. My youngest, loves non-fiction. and so she reads them frequently. So thank you so much. Can you just start off talking about your books?
I love how you approach that. It helps it not to be so heavy, and yet you’re talking about serious topics. Women get trapped in this place where her husband looks great on the outside, but there’s a lot of trauma going on. And then I love how in the back, you’ve got lots of charts that help explain a lot of the issues.
Anne: It’s frequently a bestseller in the category of teen and young adult nonfiction on abuse, which is interesting to me because I did not expect my book to be for kids. Many people have said, my children love this book. That surprised me.
The Importance Of Talking About Exploitative Media
Anne: I think the thing that probably surprises both of us is how ready and capable children are to learn about these difficult topics.
Kristen: Kids love these books because they respond to the truth. When a book clearly shines light, I think kids just gobble it up. It’s a relief to them when you’re willing to open up and talk about it or about the effects of expolitative media in a relationship, marriage, and family. Kids are more resilient than we give them credit for, and it’s great that they have these books to help them.
Anne: Can you talk about why some parents might think that not talking about it may be better for their kids?
Kristen: Yeah, I totally get that it may be intuitive, because we want to protect our children from online danger and keep them innocent. Some parents think, what if I tell my kid about it, and then they get curious and look for it. Well, we owe it to our children to teach them how to thrive in this day and age. The goal is not innocence, the goal is teaching a child to make wise decisions.
We teach them about all the other dangers and have drills, but somehow we think that this is different. It’s not, it’s a danger, just like every other danger. You need a proactive, intentional approach where you are working to create digital defense skills. When kids know what it is, why it’s harmful, and what to do when they see it, then and only then do they have a real choice to reject it. And they have the beginning of a defense, which of course in the end, it’s up to them.
Real-Life Stories Of Preparedness
Kristen: And I have so many stories of kids. One boy, like seven years old, was just going to ride bikes in the cul de sac. But they went inside and his teenage brothers said, hey, come over. We want to show you something and showed these little boys exploitative media. His mother had talked to him about it. He knew what to do and went home. He told her about it.
She was able to debrief him and help him process and neutralize those memories. And she told me, our plan actually worked beautifully. She could have never predicted that that situation would happen. But she was so glad her son was prepared, and he knew what to do. He knew to tell her, she was a safe person to talk to about this.
https://youtu.be/fvbr2Fx4fl4
Anne: She helped protect children from online abuse. Yeah, because they have so many questions, they’ll hear things at school. One of my sons, when he was in fifth grade, we did the maturation clinic, and I went with him. But I had already talked to him about everything. We’d already gone over everything at home. And he told me that at lunch, some kids talked about the maturation clinic, and they were giving the wrong information.
And speaking of innocence. I just had two researchers on the podcast. They’re PhD level researchers, and they interviewed a bunch of women who have been through betrayal trauma. And one of the things they found was that women felt like their “innocence” had harmed them. They wish they had abuse education. They wish they had had abuse education.
Protect Children From Online Abuse: Objectification & It’s Harm
Anne: They wish they had more education about healthy intimacy. In general they were religious. It was like, don’t have it until you’re married. Then once you’re married, your husband will show you what to do. You don’t need education about it. Many of them had experienced abuse from their husbands, their husbands were always on their phone looking at it, and they didn’t even know it was abuse. All of them had experienced coercion, they didn’t know that was coercion.
So the knowledge of abuse is that these are the elements of healthy relationships. What I love about your materials is that they teach these healthy concepts without saying the word, to prepare children for when that conversation will happen in the future. They help protect children from online abuse, and its effects.
Kristen: In the book for kids ages seven and older, talks about objectification, how it objectifies people’s bodies. And instead of seeing them as a whole person, who deserves love and respect, they’re just seen as a body or some sort of compilation of body parts. When you objectify a person, it’s easier to hurt them. And that’s another harm of online exploitation, because it shows people being mean and acting like that’s fun.
And so is hurting people a good way to treat somebody? No, so that just starts to teach that basics of healthy relationships are respectful and kind, and involves the whole person and trust. Whereas it teaches the exact opposite, it involves violence, disrespect, degradation, and objectification.
Online Exploitation Harms Mental Health
Kristen: And you can’t tell me that watching it for years and years. And then going into a marriage will not affect your template, your expectations and your behavior. There are quite a few studies that show that is true. People who look at it have a harder time having a healthy relationship. They also give their partner betrayal trauma from infidelity.
So turns out there are quite a few studies that show the mental health harms of it. And how it is associated with a wide range of harming mental health, not only in children and adolescents, but also in adults. I would say there are more studies with adults, obviously, it is associated with greater loneliness.
This content predicts depression and anxiety. There was a study that showed that both general and aggressive use alone were associated with less relationship satisfaction and relationship stability. Even when accounting for a range of potentially confounding variables.
One in Germany was with over 1500 German speaking users, ages 18 to 76. It showed that users with problematic content use scored significantly higher in many problems, obsessive compulsive behavior, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation. Also, they scored significantly worse in every measure of psychological functioning considered, including again, OCD, interpersonal sensitivity, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation, and psychoticism.
They also found that these results were elevated to a clinically relevant degree compared with the general population. The intensity of these problems was categorized as severe psychological distress. I could go on and on, but basically using it creates poor mental health outcomes. Kids should know that it does harm their mental health. There are so many studies that show this is true. There is a need protect children from online abuse to prevent long term damage.
Dopamine & Gender Differences In Online Explotative Exposure
Kristen: The other problem with kids using it: there’s so many problems, but one of them is the dopamine. It sets your dopamine level so high that normal things that kids used to really enjoy, like exploring the backyard and looking for bugs you know, are just boring.
So it’s messing with the dopamine in the brain. What would those kids learn and develop? So there’s lost opportunity for normal development. It appears to delay normal social development and cognitive development. These are all things that parents need to be concerned about when it comes to handing a device to a child. Parents need to know how protect children from online abuse.
Anne: As you’ve been working with parents over the years and how can we protect children online, have you seen any gender differences between the information boys need and girls need?
Kristen: Yes, I have. Girls often get into it differently than boys, but they often end up in the same place. You know, girls are interested in relationships. So they like stories, and they will be pulled in through erotic literature, through fan fiction, even through anime and cartoons.
They’ll be pulled in that way, but often end up with the videos. So I’ve been writing a book for girls to teach them the harms of it, not only themselves as they watch it. But it harms them if they get into a relationship with somebody who is also watching it. There’s quite a bit of research now that shows that if both partners watch it together, they have like threefold risk for infidelity, which is harmful to a relationship.
We Need To Protect Kids From Online Threats
Anne: Well, and we view it as infidelity at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, so they’re already…
Kristen: Yes,
Anne:…being unfaithful. If they are, they’re both unfaithful.
Kristen: Absolutely. We want to help girls understand that there are other ways to get into it It’s not just the bad pictures you see. It’s also the bad pictures that can be created in your mind through books and stories. And even explicit cartoons are dangerous and addicting. This a way to protect children from online danger.
Anne: Well, Kristen, your work is incredible. My kids love it. I’m so grateful it organizes things in a way that is easy to approach the topic. So I’m like, win, win, win. Go to defendyoungminds.com to learn more about her resources. Thank you so much, Kristen, for spending time talking with me today.
Kristen: Thank you, Anne it’s been a pleasure.
How To Deal With An Addict Husband – Evangeline’s Story
Feb 25, 2025
If you’re struggling to deal with an addict husband, we get it.
We’re here for you. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are for women who have done everything they can to fix their marriage, but their addict husband is still causing trouble.
To see if your husband’s addiction causes him to be emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
And listen (above) to Evangeline’s story to see if you relate, or read the transcript below. You’re not alone.
Evangeline: Thank you for talking with me, Anne. I’m so grateful for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community.
Anne: Let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how you felt about your husband at first?
Evangeline: Ours was like a real romance. I thought I married the man of my dreams, that I earned and deserved this as a good Christian girl and woman. I was in love, head over heels in love. He checked all the boxes. He had faith, honored and respected me, and did many thoughtful gestures.
Anne: Back then, did you notice anything a bit off, and how did you define that?
Evangeline: There were moments. I suspected he may be an addict early on and thought he acted out in his “addiction” in isolated moments. Like, just a few times a year. He’d apologize and say it wouldn’t happen again.
I never told anyone because it was infrequent. I just thought he’s growing up, he’s figuring it out. As long as it doesn’t get any worse, I’m going to be okay. We’re going to be okay.
How To Deal With An Addict Husband When He Lies
Evangeline: He introduced pornography into our marriage. I said, no, I didn’t like that. I became uncomfortable.
He’s telling me he’s watching pornography to learn how to be a better husband. How to maybe be a better lover or to be more educated.
Evangeline: Totally. It didn’t help him be a “better” anything. I found infidelity 15 to 20 years into my marriage. The reality was, I can’t tell you how many incidences. I lived in fear. There is no way to deal with this when your husband says he’s an addict.
The Reality of My Husband’s Addiction
Evangeline: And really why would I know how to deal with an addicted husband? My parents raised me sheltered and uninformed.
And he seemed to love and adore me. I felt so blessed at the time. This was a godsend, an answer to prayer.
Anne: It makes total sense. That is exactly what you would think, especially under the circumstances. You think he’s a man of God, because that’s what he has told you.
Evangeline: The first 10 years of our marriage were a blur. Our two youngest out of three kids had severe medical issues. Those years were just survival.
I took women’s Bible study and women’s leadership.
The Sacrifices You Make When Your Husband is An Addict
I did bookkeeping for multiple churches and nonprofits. He also played a part in my business. He did taxes for some of the customers I had. My business was thriving. About 13 or so years into our marriage, we decided to move across the country. He wanted us to go down to one income, one job.
So I sold my business to another accountant in our city. And I became a full time stay at home mom for the next 16 years.
I didn’t know what would happen when I gave up my financial security and ability to take care of myself. I needed safety, because my husband was an addict, and that was an unsafe situation. The Christian evangelical community promoted and encouraged us to be stay-at-home moms. I didn’t realize that as a woman, I was putting myself at risk for the situation I’m now currently in.
He Wanted Power & Control
Evangeline: I can see it now that he wanted more power and control. If he’s an addict, you can start seeing the patterns. Like, when I started going back to school, he was not supportive.
He would call me in the middle of my day, interrupt me when he’d never done that before. This behavior felt like more that just being an “addict husband.” I would keep my study time to only the hours my kids were at school.
I could only study when I had no other duties.
He Didn’t Want Me To Improve Myself
Evangeline: It was obvious he didn’t want me to improve myself, or show interest in any of my hobbies.
And that was shocking. His addiction meant he only wanted me the version of myself he married at 22. He didn’t allow me to grow and change. I wasn’t allowed to be an educated and degreed adult. I had to be the high school graduate.
He simply wanted my attention only on him.
Anne: One part of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches that we all have special talents and interests. But sometimes, when a husband struggles with addiction, he makes us think our life should only be about him. This workshop helps us realize that we were created to live our own life.
My Addict Husband Got In the Way Of My Career
Evangeline: Yes, only certain activities met his approval, such as my kid’s medical issues. I could do ministry and women’s ministry through my churches.
And I’m learning that my husband is an “addict”. But the more my information and knowledge about abuse increased, the more his behavior became destructive and worse.
Realizing What My Husband Being An Addict Meant To Me
Evangeline: I think back now, and I’m like, my life was out of control. My personal life was in mayhem. In fact, the only place stable was work. My spouse was an addict to an extreme level. As an “addict”, he was also acting out with other women.
Sometimes I think we just go through a series of betrayals that are so deep and so intense. It’s almost like when he does it again, you’re in such a state of shock. The reverberations from each of these betrayals almost paralyze you. It’s like you couldn’t even react anymore.
My hypervigilance became extreme. I was waiting for the next one to happen.
And at some point, I’m became numb. I developed severe agoraphobia.
When An Addict Gets Caught At Work
Evangeline: We moved four times in 10 years. I lived in four States in 10 years.
These were all moves related to him changing jobs. There were multiple incidents with his employers or with a fellow employee. I would never get the whole story or the whole truth. But I knew enough to know that he was misbehaving and acting inappropriately, unprofessionally with subordinates.
When he started the last job he had when I was with him, he had already started a relationship with a woman at work before the rest of the family moved.
But I didn’t know that. All those years, I was fighting for my marriage. Even though it was a complete disaster, full betrayal, full addiction. It was so exhausting constantly having to manage an addicted husband.
I didn’t realize what his addiction was doing to me. I just thought, “He needs help to overcome his addiction. And I’d still be there for him once he figured it out.” That’s truly what I thought. I said to him, “I’ll give you the freedom to figure out your problems, get help, and do what you got to do.”
Anne: You’re still in this, like, willing to help your husband with his “addiction”?
Manipulation & Prolonged Abuse
Because many times a husband will say, “I’m an addict” to manipulate us to “help” him. But it’s just to continue to exploit us.
Evangeline: Yes! He used it to continue to exploit me for sure! I said, “You go get help”. Your addiction is ruining your career. I do not feel safe, my husband is addicted he needs to get into a 12 Step Program.
Also, you need therapy.
So in addiction therapy, the therapist had us create one shared password for all our emails and accounts. We set up accountability and transparency. So I don’t know how he did it, but he still watched explicit material, and had conversations with other women.
He would just “slip up” here and there until life became just one constant slip up. I didn’t realize what was actually happening.
The Myth Of Keeping Your Addict Husband Satisfied
Evangeline: I’d never spoken to anyone about my marriage. I remember telling one woman at church that I had become fairly good friends about with what I’d found on his phone. He had inappropriate texts with a woman at work.
I truly believed the teaching that if you keep your husband busy and satisfied, filling his mind with thoughts of you, it would help him deal with his addiction. She told me that if I satisfy him, he wouldn’t need to seek out explicit material or other women.
When I decide to do something, I’ll go all in. And so I followed that advice, and it didn’t work.
It failed. He cheated, betrayed, and continued in his addiction.
Isolation, Fear & Discovering What His “Addiction” Really Meant
Evangeline: I took a leave of absence. I began to search for any resource I could find, betrayal trauma, addiction and narcissistic personality disorder.
It wasn’t until I started listening to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. And I heard other women share their stories of what it was like to be married to an addict. I suddenly heard something I identified with.
And of course, at the beginning, I didn’t understand that you can’t take this information to an addict husband. But I made that mistake of taking him the information I was learning.
Misunderstanding Addiction
Evangeline: And I truly thought if I just approached him the right way. If I had the magic way to say it, he will understand and see the light. I know he’s intelligent, smart and capable. I must be failing. I’m not saying it right. Let me help my addict husband by trying it all in different ways. He’s bound to get it eventually.
Then he began turning what I knew against me. He started saying that I was the abuser and that I was the one causing problems. The scariest part of my story with him happened when we moved to this state for his job. This was the first time he worked at a hospital for behavioral health. He was the CFO at the hospital.
Even though he has no mental health education of any kind. Maybe Psychology 101 that everyone has to take in college. He’s an executive for the facility. But he’s coming home and telling me, you wouldn’t believe the wonders that we see in patients receiving shock treatment. It’s actually still a valid treatment practiced today, and you wouldn’t believe how these people are emotionally stable due to shock treatment. And he’s like, you should look into it.
Anne: For you?
Evangeline: Yes, he scared me so bad. At that point, I struggled with severe agoraphobia. I was terrified, knew no one in a strange city. I had no friends, no family, and no one to call and talk to.
Feeling Complete Isolation While Dealing With My Addict Husband
Evangeline: I was completely isolated and terrified. If I can’t trust people I live with, who are supposed to be for me. And the people who are supposed to love me and have my back? How could I possibly trust a stranger? I knew I could trust my coworkers in my child advocacy work, but beyond that, I had no one personally. And I was terrified. I was terrified he would commit me against my will and that I would have a shock treatment done to me against my will.
And you lose memory, and looking back now that I know that’s one of the effects of that treatment. I understand why he wanted it so bad. We had reached a point in our marriage where I had learned so many truths. There was no return from that knowledge.
Anne: Once you see it, you can’t unsee it.
Evangeline: You can’t unsee it. And I didn’t realize then how desperate he was for me to not know the truth of him. I know it now.
Anne: So you become a child advocate, recognize what abuse is, but still don’t recognize that he’s abusive. Then you recognize that he’s abusive, and you think, oh, if I can just explain it well enough. By the way, this is totally normal. You’re completely normal. I went through the same thing, trying to help my “addicted husband.”
I think every abuse victim does. Because they’ve manipulated us to think they’ve like given us that impression. They’ve gaslit us to think that. So then, you go through that phase, which we’ve all been through, of okay. If I can explain it to him, or if I can get him to the right therapist or something, then he’ll get help.
Therapist Disappointment
Evangeline: He went to a therapist, and I went to one appointment not to do a couples therapy. But to say, hey, I want to hear from the therapist that you are telling the therapist everything.
Anne: What type of therapist? Is it an addiction specialist?
Evangeline: They do therapy for addiction. Just a traditional therapist with addiction training. I told both therapists, “I’m not safe, I’m not safe, and I’m not sure what he’s doing next. That’s going to destroy me and the kids, our lives. I’m terrified.” Did you know that neither of those therapists had one thing to offer me? Not one thing. They didn’t follow up, and they didn’t have anything to give me.
Anne: That is unfortunately most women’s experience when they work with an addiction specialist for their spouse. It’s so disappointing, invalidating, and frankly dangerous. And that’s why I started our group sessions and our individual sessions. And also why I wrote the Living Free Workshop. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women determine their adddict husband’s true character, and then teaches safety strategies.
So basically, it helps women know exactly what’s going on, and then also what’s going to happen next. Because I found most therapists, therapy in general, especially couple therapy or therapy for troubled marriages. They just look at you and blink. They might say the word boundaries, but they don’t know how to actually teach boundaries, because “communication” is always the solution when it comes to therapy. And “communication” doesn’t help with an addicted husband.
So I am so sorry. That’s so discouraging. So they just like stared at you and just like blinked at you.
False Hope In Addiction Therapy
Evangeline: That’s what they did. They had nothing to offer, no suggestions for a safety plan, and didn’t look to him and say, we need to stop now. At this point, we weren’t addressing the misconduct. We were addressing his behavior with addiction. It was out of control and dangerous.
Anne: Though it felt terrible to you at the time, and they did not do the right thing, there is a silver lining there, and it’s that they didn’t say, oh, I can help both of you. And this is how we’re going to do this. And the reason why that’s a silver lining is that false hope. Sometimes we call it hopium around here that, like, oh, I will treat your husband and make him safe for you, is super dangerous.
We don’t recommend any men’s programs, because we’ve seen them use that to continue to manipulate and control, and they weaponize all the therapy language. It almost makes them like super abusers, because they know how to speak. And it gets scary quickly. When they’ve become these like almost mutants of themselves through learning the therapy language. Did you experience that part, where they’re good at using the therapy language as weapons against us?
Evangeline: When we were separated for a year, I felt it a little. I asked for a space where we could talk and actually work things out. Whenever we talked alone, the conversations just went in circles. We kept jumping from one thing to another without solving anything. I still cared about my marriage and wanted it to work, even though we had been apart for a year.
I requested, can we find a therapist where we will have space to have conversations?
My Addict Husband Was 99 Percent Done
Evangeline: So we’re both held accountable for how we participate in that conversation, not couples counseling. this point, even though I still desire to keep my marriage and future, he said I’m 99 percent done. You know what that did to me? It took me a couple of appointments before I finally understood that statement.
I’m 99 percent done. There was that 1 percent chance, and that dangle. I was the one dangling. He was exercising that power of dangling me, even though he was done. He was already living with a woman for a couple of years.
I just didn’t know it. My kids knew it, he knew it. And no one told me. I was the only one. But he kept saying, I’m just 99 percent done. So I’m thinking, okay, he’s not going to the top. The therapist knew he’d thrown in the towel before I did.
https://youtu.be/p-PCyiQQrp0
Anne: It’s so hard. And I’m guessing the therapist didn’t mention this is abuse either.
Evangeline: No.
Anne: Yeah.
Evangeline: And that therapist actually with the credentials is trained and should have known it, should have seen.
Anne: Generally, therapists don’t have abuse training. It’s a weird, strange situation. Because people think therapists should have abuse training, but in general, they don’t have a lot of it. They don’t assess abuse.
When they think he is abusive. And I am the best therapist, and I can help him with his abuse. That scares me actually even more than the person who doesn’t recognize it. Because if the guy didn’t want to be abusive, he knows what he’s doing, and he would have stopped his abuse already.
He Knows He’s Lying & Therapy Won’t Help
Anne: Therapy isn’t going to help him. It makes me nervous.
Evangeline: I’ve since learned therapy doesn’t fix the abuser.
Anne: For those of us, me included, who thought, he just needs to know what’s going on, where I went wrong there. And I described this well and why this happens in the BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. He knew what he was doing. So he knew he was lying and what happened. And so if I was like, ah, this is what’s happening. He already knew it wouldn’t change him. Because if knowing would have changed him, he already knew, it would have changed him already.
It was the opposite. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he was doing it on purpose.
Evangeline: It is hard. It’s really hard to come to terms with the fact that the person you committed to your life, that you love, honor, and cherish. And you bring such a beautiful, valuable side to the relationship to the table. It’s so hard to imagine they’re doing these destructive things on purpose.
And they actually don’t care how much you’re harmed, how deep you’re hurt, how devastated you are. And then you get blamed for your response for being emotional or angry. For being any of the valid emotions you’re supposed to experience. When you face betrayal, shock, hurt, devastation, and your life imploding, you’re going to have those emotions.
Those are valid, and they’re appropriate. For those to get judged, I mean, you’re emotionally unstable, you’ve got the problem. But their decades of behavior suddenly is not even the issue or not even the focus.
Corporate Retreat Revelation
Evangeline: You know, Anne, there’s one more part of my story. Before I became an advocate, we were actually on a corporate retreat for his work. So all the wives did a spa day together, and we were having healthy girl talk, nothing inappropriate. It was spending this time with these other women who were not from the evangelical community in which I was raised.
They were just average, ordinary, great women. We were talking about marriage and intimacy. And I had made a comment that we have intimacy, and it’s healthy in my marriage. It’s great, in fact, if he feels the need to be intimate, even if I’m passed out and asleep, I was okay if he needed to be intimate. And the reaction from these women.
Anne: You were sharing what you thought was an example of your healthy intimacy, thinking they would be like, oh, that is so healthy that we can be intimate.
Evangeline: Yes.
Anne: …with you when you’re passed out.
Evangeline: I was so ingrained with my only role and goal in life, which is to please him to whatever self sacrifice I need to do. My purpose is to please him. Even if that means using my body when I am asleep and on sleeping medication, I cannot verbally consent or even have any memory or knowledge it happened afterward. I thought that was my duty as his wife to provide that for him, in order to help my husband with his addiction.
No husband should ever do that ever. You have to consent. I’m like, I consented. I and they told me, no, that’s not consent. You have to be conscious in the moment, consent in the moment. And so I started having conversations with my spouse about it.
How To Deal With An Addict: Realizing the Extent of The Abuse
Evangeline: And it turned out he’d been doing this way longer than I knew, and it was something he continued to do. Even after that conversation, he did it for years.
Anne: I’m so sorry.
Evangeline: You know, it was shocking when I found out. The times I didn’t know, it’s like if he did it and then told me, and I knew it was somehow a little better and okay. But finding out it had been going on for years. And then once this conversation started happening with him, this person inside out. You know, when they start lying, you can tell when they are not truthful with you.
And then it was having all the subsequent conversations. And in each of those, his lies grew more. The retellings, the details would change in his retellings. And then having these conversations with him is when I would begin to get flooded with flashbacks. Where I would have some conscious recall, and I didn’t know what to do with that.
I had nowhere to turn. I was alone in that. And I still stayed married and had a very active, intimate life with him for many more years to come, like eight more years. It was hard to reconcile.
Anne: Absolutely.
Evangeline: When you have the good times, and then you have the falling apart times, and then you have the shock and awe times of like, is he really? Is he that bad? Is he that vile? No, I have to be misunderstanding. That had to have been an exception. That can’t have been the norm. Again, it’s just a series of traumas that never seemed to end.
The Final Separation & Divorce After Years Of Supporting His Addiction Recovery
Evangeline: So when I finally separate from him, I finally realize my marriage is over. That I can’t deal with his addiction anymore. I need a divorce. I had at that point already done betrayal trauma work. It was a 17 month divorce with a full trial. I then turned around, and the week I turned 50, he filed the appeal.
So I had another 17 month long court. I just won the appeal, but he’s still challenging my win. I actually got a text two weeks ago on the 4th of this month, communicating that exact thought.
He said, just be reasonable the way you saw me once upon a time. He wants me to be that 22 year old bride who thinks he is the most amazing person ever. Who can do no wrong. And unless I view him like that, I’m not reasonable. Because I’m asking for something that the law legally entitles me to ask for. From Focus on the Family, “Help your husband be the hero to your children.”
I chose to do it with my kids, and even though he was working late or I didn’t know where he was. I told them, “Oh, your dad wishes he was here. He’ll be here as soon as he can. You have a great dad who loves you.” I said those things, and I didn’t just do it once. I kept saying it for years.
Realizing All The Abuse
Anne: And you did it because you thought it would help. It was actually an act of resistance on your part. So I want you to, like, hold your head up high. Because you genuinely thought that it would improve things. It wasn’t because you’re stupid. It wasn’t because…
Evangeline: No.
Anne: …your brain doesn’t work. It’s not because you’re emotionally unstable. It’s an act of resistance. It was the only thing you could think of at the time to keep yourself safe. And the sad thing is they’re preying on women’s vulnerabilities. They should educate women about abuse to “focus on the family”, and strengthen a family.
Evangeline: Yes, Anne, I’m 51. It took me decades to understand all the abuse I experienced in my marriage.
No one teaches this in most evangelical groups. Schools don’t really teach it either, especially private Christian schools. I went to a private Christian school for 13 years, and no one ever talked about abuse—not in class, not in church, not even in women’s ministries.
For ten years, I led in my role, but no one ever brought me a lesson saying we should stop supporting addicted husbands unconditionally.
Advocacy & Awareness
We don’t teach women how to be a good support, how to be a safe place to live, how to be a good friend. Can I walk alongside a woman in the middle of trauma, abuse, and betrayal? What should I say? What should I not say? So big churches we have, is that in their bookstores? These materials are not on their bookstore shelves. They’re not promoting them. It is a missed opportunity.
Anne: That is why I started podcasting. To educate everyone that abuse causes betrayal trauma. A husband’s addiction will always be abusive to you, their wife. The lies, the gaslighting, all that is abuse. You can’t call it anything else.
Evangeline: We didn’t know about erectile dysfunction either. And that my husband needed to begin the pill for that in his early 30’s. I never even learned that fact until my late forties. I didn’t even know that piece of information.
Evangeline: For over 15 years, I didn’t know things that should be simple to understand. Women need to understand what they’re going through. We need to learn the words and meanings to describe it. For example, if your husband is an addict, you are experiencing abuse and betrayal.
Infidelity Is Abuse: Dealing With An Addict Husband
Anne: I think one of the reasons why it’s not common knowledge. They want you to think that their shame causes it, childhood trauma, or something. When many of us feel shame or have childhood trauma. We have problems, and we don’t lie to people and deceive them on purpose.
So many people pretend or act like this isn’t a choice, a conscious choice to harm people and exploit them. But that is what it is, and it’s really hard for the courts to wrap their heads around it. For therapists to wrap their heads around it. For friends and family, to realize that abuse is a conscious choice. He knows what he’s doing, and it’s harmful. And of course, she’s upset. Of course, she’s hypervigilant.
Anyone going through that is hypervigilant, because someone was hurting her on purpose. She was trying to avoid the chaos her “addict” husband was causing. Like, it’s hard for people to wrap their heads around it. So I’m so grateful that you were willing to come on today to share your story. Because all of us sharing our story helps other women realize what’s going on. So your bravery today to share has been amazing.
Betrayal Trauma In Relationships: What No One Explains
Feb 18, 2025
Have you experienced betrayal trauma in relationships? Have you been betrayed, emotionally abused, and abandoned? Disbelieved, dismissed, and even shunned? If so, listen as these betrayal victims share their advice for other women.
The Right Support To Help You Identify if Betrayal Trauma is in Your Relationship
If you discover your husband betrayed you, knowing what to is difficult. Sometimes clergy, therapists, even the legal system dismiss women’s trauma after betrayal.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery empowers women when they become educated about what to do. One of the key things to do if you’ve been betrayed is determining if there has also been emotional abuse. To discover if his betrayal includes emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Relationships
Anne: We have a very special episode today. Victims of Betrayal, trauma in Relationships share their stories about what helped them heal, I asked them to record what their thoughts were and send those recordings to me so here are those recordings.
She Learned How to Create Boundaries Due To The Betrayal Trauma In Her Relationship
Betrayal Trauma Victim #1: We tried many counselors, including CSATS, and have been doing that quite some time. Being on BTR for just a few weeks has made all the difference, and I can see the behaviors now much more clearly, the dysfunction. Being on every day and getting the validation from the coaches and other women has been tremendously helpful to me. Life changing.
She Received Life-Changing Support
Betrayal Trauma Victim #2: I’m grateful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I was able to get clear thinking about what I witnessed and what was going on. Listening to the podcast and then having the coaches talk with us individually helped me classify and figure out strategies for handling, grooming, gaslighting, and things that I didn’t have words for until I got into BTR. It’s the best support for betrayal trauma.
But I think the most significant thing was to get that outside myself and apply it in different situations. And one was with my husband’s counselor. Very traditionally, he would like to do marriage counseling, and I learned with BTR that there has to be a certain level of health before that would be successful. I was able to state that with my husband’s counselor to say to him, his sex before marriage, the pornography, all those things are not marriage problems.
They cause marriage problems, but they are his personal problems until he addresses them. Marriage counseling will not be successful, and I will not participate. But it was BTR that empowered me to understand, one, I have a voice, and two, that was a very logical way to handle the situation. And the counselor was taken aback, but he saw what I was saying, and he took another course with my husband, which actually helped my husband more.
So I’m very grateful for BTR and the coaches, and thankful for the daily presence of having somewhere to go. Where the craziness around us can be processed and we can come to a place of peace.
She Learned That She’s Not Crazy
Betrayal Trauma Victim #3: BTR Group Sessions have amazing coaches who have also walked this path. They can give appropriate advice, encouragement, and help answer questions and guide you along the path of recovery.
BTR gave me the words and the terminology to put to how I was feeling. And knowing the right words to describe my feelings helped calm my soul and helped me to not feel so crazy. There have been several moments when I was full of panic, anxiety, and fear because of the situations at home with my husband, and I was able to get on Betrayal Trauma Support Group within a couple of hours and talk through it, get the comfort and validation that I needed and advice if it was needed.
BTR Group has been a lifesaver for me on many occasions. It’s a safe place where I can cry and let it all out and share my fears, no matter how silly they may seem to others. The coaches and other women in the group understand and get it. It’s a judgment free zone where I can be me and fully accepted for who I am, for all my faults and failures and my accomplishments.
Gave Her Strength When She Needed It
BTR helped me to set and hold appropriate boundaries for my safety, which helped me to feel confident and empowered. The coaches and other women in the group give me validation to know I am not crazy, and that others have been through the same thing. I love being in the group and hearing other women’s stories and questions.
And often they have the same questions I have, and sometimes questions I had, but I didn’t know that I had, or how to ask. And so many times the advice given to other women was just what I needed to hear.
I’ve been doing BTR groups since the beginning, and it’s great to build that relationship with the coaches, and to have them tell me how much improvement and growth they have seen in me. BTR group is the friend I never had and needed so desperately. I have felt so alone for so many years. BTR came into my life when I needed them most, and to have the coaches with me through this journey of healing.
I honestly can say I don’t know where I’d be without the BTR Group Sessions. I credit so much of my healing and strength to the coaches and other women in the group. BTR Group has helped me become a better person, healthier person, stronger, more confident, and empowered.
The Horrific Experience of Betrayal Trauma In Marriage
Betrayal Trauma Victim #4: I was going through a really ugly part of the divorce. I was dealing with a lot of very covert abuse, very mean and horrible to me and my younger daughter, but nice to everyone else. A family in our church took my 16 year old daughter and I into their home. She was going through some issues also.
And she said, “You’ve got to attend BTR Group Sessions.” And, I started attending BTR Group Sessions and listening to BTR Podcasts, and was surprised at the connection with the pornography. It has the best betrayal trauma resources. I actually went to counseling. I’d been going to counseling for years, with my marital problems. And nobody had ever made that connection before. https://www.btr.org/best-betrayal-trauma-resources
And when I brought it up to my therapist at Kaiser, she said, “Oh, that’s interesting. I’d never made that connection before.” And I just kept listening to BTR Podcasts and it was so intriguing. I hadn’t even thought about the connection of with coercive control.
That hit me really hard. I think it gave me more validation because even though I really can’t confront him about that, we were on zero communication.
It gave me a lot of validation to know that I’m not crazy, that no matter how this looks to everyone else, I’m suffering horribly and I’m not crazy. I appreciate the BTR podcast and the Group Sessions. It’s been invaluable to me, and I just thank you for it.
I Learned Self Worth and Self Care
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #5: BTR was recommended to me by my counselor. She recommended that I get into group. She said it was important that I get into group while still seeing her. The great thing about BTR group sessions is how they’ve helped me. So you have all different coaches who bring with them all different areas expertise.
I have found that when I get on these groups, I get all this coaching and support, and hearing other from other women’s experiences.
It has helped me know that I’m not alone, because it is so easy to feel so alone in all this. One of the things that’s important is having safe people. If you have people around you that don’t necessarily understand your experience, you don’t feel safe. And BTR creates that safe environment.
So the women in these groups are safe. You never feel judged. You’re not going to have people tell you how you should think or do. It’s completely safe. And while each woman’s experience is unique, we all share commonalities. And having that support helped me through the most traumatic relational experience in my life.
She Experienced Betrayal Trauma In Her Relationship
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #6: I truly believe Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions saved my life. I’ve made lifetime friends, the only ones who understand my feelings, who have gone through the same things. Each coach has their own special traits, and seeing the different views of the same subject or seeing things in different ways or suggestions helps make you feel safe.
She Found Clarity After Years of Marriage Trauma
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #7: My husband was in recovery and having. All of these meetings each week and having all the help he needs and counseling. And I felt like I was being left out in the dark. I was at the end of my rope.
So I started searching for something to help me. I found BTR. I decided that’s what would be best for me. So I started attending the group. I have found that having this group has been the best thing that ever happened to me. It has taught me what self care means. It’s taught me a lot of things about gaslighting and DARVO and things I’d never heard of before.
They’ve helped me through a lot of really hard situations. The group has been so supportive. The women are amazing. Everyone has their own story to tell, but each person gets validation and support that they need and feedback from the coaches as well as each other. It’s been great to know that I’m not alone in this, that there’s other women who have struggled the same as I have, and that I can be there to support them, and they can be there to support me.
She Finally Had A Name For Her Experience
This group, I lean on it a lot. When I’m going through hard times, and I don’t understand everything happening with my addict, they help clarify situations for me, and give me options. They also give me a place to share, and I feel safe, and I’m not being judged. I just want to let others know how wonderful the BTR group has been for me, and I would recommend it for anyone who’s going through betrayal trauma, so they can learn and grow.
I feel like I’ve learned and grown from the first time I attended to this day. I’ve learned self worth. I’ve learned what self care is, things that I didn’t even understand when I started attending Group Sessions.
So I just want to thank all the coaches, everyone.
Received Validation & Encouragement
Betrayal Trauma Victim #8: I really appreciate how you validated everybody, first by listening, and then by encouraging them in their own insights and giving them, you know, advice.
permission to do and be whatever they needed to at that moment. I have not experienced that with counseling, though I’ve been through a lot. Yeah, it’s been a trial. And so I recognize the uniqueness of it and it’s just amazing.
What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? – Shelly’s Story
Feb 11, 2025
Women who have discovered their husband’s lies often wonder, “What if I can never trust my husband again?”
The first step to knowing if you can trust your husband again is to determine the truth about what’s going on. It may be that he’s using invisible emotional abuse tactics. To uncover if his lying is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Getting Support While I Determine If I Can Trust My Husband Again
Most women need support as they work to figure out what’s going on. To get support from women who understand, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
Transcript: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Shelly. She’s here to share her story of wondering what if she can ever trust her husband again? Welcome Shelly.
Shelly: Hi, thank you.
Anne: So Shelly has experienced betrayal trauma in multiple relationships. Let’s start at the beginning.
Shelly: Okay, so I was actually born into betrayal trauma. I didn’t know that until recently. But my biological father cheated on my pregnant mother. So literally all that stuff in her body, all those hormones, feelings, and emotions when she was pregnant with me were going into me too, with so many me too examples. She sank into deep postnatal depression after my birth. And then, and obviously, betrayal trauma.
And she couldn’t fully take care of me. My mother neglected me as a baby, not through any fault of her own. Because she wasn’t able to cope emotionally with what she was going through. When I turned seven, she met my stepdad. Who I didn’t trust. I had this sense that there was something wrong, even as a child.
And later, when I was in my teens, he was also leading a double life. He watched pornography, and made advances towards some of my male friends. When I was a teenager. This led me to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Because a much older man groomed me in his forties when I was around sixteen. I believed I was in a relationship with him, but now I understand it was not, I was his victim.
Teenage Trauma & Abuse
Shelly: He abused me on every level you can imagine. He was an addict. And chose to use explicit material every day, like degrees beyond comprehension. He made no effort to hide this and was completely open about it. He humiliated me. I had betrayal trauma from infidelity. I was a young teenage woman, and he took photos of me and showed them around. Even now, I know they’re still in the world. Years later, after leaving him, I found out from friends that he’d shown them.
He tried to make money off those, I don’t doubt that. I got pregnant at 19, and left him to protect my son. He beat me while I held him, this wasn’t unusual at all. He worsened the violence when I was pregnant. So when I had my son, I think I’d just turned 20, I was in the hospital for a week and he was having sex with someone else.
I was with him for a very short time after that. And then I fled, and I left all my family and friends behind. And I left the county to try and find safety for my son. While learning to be a mother, I was also going through what I didn’t understand was PTSD, which I now understand. It was only years later that I understood this.
Anne: Have you ever considered yourself a victim of trafficking with that man who took pictures of you and disseminated it as online?
Shelly: I do now,. I was not comfortable. Because I saw the photos that he was like parading around, and you can see how uncomfortable I was. I have a son who’s not much younger than I was now.
Grooming & Exploitation
Shelly: I was a child, and he was friends with people in that world. I remember him saying to me, I could have you in prostitution if I wanted to. He said it like, I look after you so well, I’m not putting you into that world. Look how well I treat you. There was definitely the whole relationship, grooming, it was an abusive relationship. It was someone preying on someone who was young and naive. There are so many types of exploitation.
Anne: Your story sounds similar to trafficking victims. They’re not aware of grooming. They think it’s a relationship, but they don’t realize he’s targeted them for this purpose.
Shelly: A hundred percent, yeah. I’m aware of that now. But it took me a few years to, in fact it was fairly recently. I actually looked back and was like, that wasn’t a relationship. I was just, it was like trafficking. He used me and my body in any way he desired. He cheated me, lied, and now I’ve heard he’s in the industry.
Shelly: Yeah, so I don’t have any contact with him. I disappeared, feared for my life, and ran away.
Anne: He now is, but it sounds like he was at the time too.
Shelly: Yeah, and he was around a lot of people in that sort of lifestyle.
Anne: The exploitation business.
Shelly: Exactly, he completely exploited me. I stayed there for four years with him through mental, emotional, physical, he’d used humiliation. He used to enjoy humiliating me in that way. It took a long time to get over. But then you can’t heal them.
Shelly: Yeah, it was years later. So since I had my son, I was looking for a safe family. I just wanted to bring my children up in a happy home. So I fell into another relationship with a man I believed I loved. Later, I found out he’s a complete pathological liar. He wasn’t violent with me. So I thought I was safe, because of my experience before. I didn’t recognize what he was doing to me as abuse, but he was verbally vile to me a lot.
He broke my identity apart. He told me who I was and who I wasn’t, and chipped away at me. He’d go out all night, not come home, be full of lies. I knew, my heart knew he wasn’t loyal to me. So because of my past, I thought I had trust issues. And the men I’ve been with have propagated this idea. They’re like, oh yeah, you’ve got trust issues. This is the damage that you’ve got because of your past.
Anne: Did he tell you you had trust issues as a way to manipulate you?
My instincts told me something wasn’t right. So I got this itemized phone bill. I rang and a woman answered, and I just knew.
He Tells So Many Lies
Shelly: When I confronted him, the gaslighting went, like, through the roof. He pulled out all the stops. And so I called her with a completely open heart. And believed my husband lied to her too. Because I knew he was a liar, he was good at it. I’d seen him lie to people around us, and just think, like, why? I don’t understand why you’re lying about this stuff, when there’s no need to.
He was just pathological with it, and I approached her. I messaged her. And said look, I believe he’s married and lying to you too. And she didn’t reply for a while, but then when she did, she sent me 17 screenshots of their messages together.
I had a baby that was one years old, that I was breastfeeding. We’d not long been on our first family holiday. And he messaged this woman with my daughter sitting on his knee whilst we were on holiday. She verbally attacked me and called me every name under the sun. I approached her with no venom.
He is lying to you as well. Because this is what’s actually happening. He is married. And she, the abuse I got off her was horrendous. She threatened my 16 year old son, messaged him and threatened him, she was awful. And, yeah, I lost a stone in two weeks after that.
I stopped eating. I was in what I now know to be, strong betrayal trauma. My whole world was falling apart.
My Friend Becomes My Partner
Shelly: That’s when my now partner came along. I regarded him as a close friend. We’d been close for 20 years, even though we hadn’t seen each other all the time because we lived in different counties. He came along and he was like, he’s lying to you because he was pulling me back in. This guy twisted my head to the point where he called this other woman crazy, saying she was a stalker.
He tried to pull me back in, and my sons, my oldest sons, said, mum, he’s lying to you. It was really hard to get out. It seemed like an orbit that I was in. I’d get so far away from him mentally and emotionally, and then he’d pull me back in. I’d be questioning what was real and what wasn’t. Again, my now partner helped so much with that.
Maybe a year later, my now partner opened his mouth and confessed that he’d always had deep feelings for me, which I’d always felt deeply for him. We’d known each other for 20 years, so it was like, suddenly everything in me lit up. It was like everything switched. All my ex’s power over me went, and suddenly I was full of love and light. So, we had the most beautiful love story.
I had a fairytale level love story, like star crossed love that had been going on for 20 years. Neither of us ever spoke about it. And we’d been in different relationships. We went to each other’s weddings as friends. There was never anything lustful. It was always deep heart, caring. We share children now from past relationships.
Can I Ever Trust My Husband Again?Discovering Another Betrayal
Shelly: So I actually felt for the first time in my entire life that true love healed me. And that everything I’d been through before was leading to this, and it was like trials of fire to get to the other side. Or the island in the ocean of where stormy weather doesn’t go, but I’d found my safe space, I’d found my person.
Anne: I’ll quote a country song from Rascal Flatts, “God bless the broken road that led me safe to you”. Like all these things, they were worth it.
Shelly: Yes, exactly,
Anne: I found you.
Shelly: Fast forward seven years, I find out that he’s hiding an addiction. I don’t actually believe it’s an addiction. He made a choice and hid it from me. The betrayal trauma I feel now is actually so much worse than anything I experienced before. Because he was the light at the end of the tunnel for me. And this relationship made me believe in true love again. And then, all that came crashing down on my first D-Day.
https://youtu.be/CVU-eI3SgeQ
I had many D-Days after the first admission. I thought I had damage and trust issues. That was my narrative that I’d believed. And I actually said to him, I’m so sorry I have trouble trusting you, of course I didn’t know if I could trust my husband after that. Because I’m damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships, and even how I entered the world. And he took that, and he allowed me to believe it was me. So I felt uncomfortable leaving him. in the house on his own.
Realizing The Extent Of The Lies
Shelly: I felt uncomfortable with him at work, but I put it all down to trust issues. I’m damaged, I haven’t dealt with the trauma in my past, so I’m ruining my perfect relationship with my trust issues. Which actually everything I asked him, even at the points where I asked him, turned out to be true, and it was completely vindicated.
So what has actually happened? So I was carrying this, I’ve got trust issues, I’m damaged for so long. I believed those people around me who were just lying. I released myself from that, and I woke up within myself and realized I don’t have trust issues. I’ve just been around loads of people lying to me, and I can feel it.
Anne: Yeah, you have a superpower.
Shelly: Yeah, suddenly that thing I’d been carrying for so many years has suddenly lifted. I’m not damaged, I’ve just been around people that have treated me really badly.
Anne: Was that a relief to you in some ways?
Shelly: I felt relief, because like I said, I thought I damaged my perfect relationship. So it was like a double edged sword.
Anne: At the time, you were being manipulated to think that you had problems, that this was your fault, but now that you know the truth and look back. And you’re like, oh no, he was gaslighting me. He really was lying to me. Can you tell me more about why you didn’t want him at home by himself? Or why you were worried about him at work?
Shelly: It was just a feeling. It was literally just a feeling. There was no concrete evidence at all. I didn’t have anything. He was very good at keeping that separate, completely separate.
The Pain Of Gaslighting
Shelly: I just had this nagging feeling, an uneasiness of him being at home alone, an uneasiness of him when he is at work.
Anne: What an amazing gift…
Shelly: Yeah,
Anne: …to you. I’m so grateful that you were strong and brave, and nothing was wrong with you. Even if you had “trust issues”. Because, like, why trust people when they’re not trustworthy?
Shelly: Exactly.
Anne: But in this particular case, your warning system is going off, and now you’re more confident in it because you found out the truth. But to know that he was weaponizing that against you, that’s why it hurts so badly.
Shelly: Yeah, and like being in a relationship where he would lecture me on trusting him and how important trust was within the relationship, knowing that he was lying to me.
Anne: That is so devastating. That is absolutely, it’s so bad. Sorry, I don’t know why anyone can think this form of abuse is not severe.
Shelly: No, I know. It’s abuse on every level. I described it as a spiritual crime to him. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul. It goes so deep for me and everybody experiencing this. I don’t understand how anyone can literally look themselves in the mirror knowing everything they know about themselves. And just carry on like it’s fine.
Anne: And I can see why that was the most traumatic, because you trusted him the most, and he lied to you on such an intimate level.
Can I Trust My Husband Again: He Withheld Information
Shelly: Yeah, I asked him, just plainly, often, whether he was using explicit material. And always he’d be like, No, I only have eyes for you. I only have eyes for you. It wasn’t like it just never came up. I asked him a lot because of these feelings, my instincts. So it was, there’s no, oh, I thought you’d be fine with it. It wasn’t that at all. He knew where I was with that. And he still chose to hide that from me. It seems pretty clear at this point that I couldn’t trust my husband again.
Anne: Which is abusive on so many levels, especially on a intimate level, coercion. When women say, I feel like I was emotionally raped. Basically, and people are like, what, and we’re not kidding. That’s exactly what happened. Because we would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did. Had we had the information that they were purposefully withholding from us.
Shelly: Exactly. And the coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently. Because this has been going on for a year now.
Anne: So it’s been a year since he told you.
Shelly: The D-Days, yeah, I always say D-Days because there was so much that we took a long time for full disclosure. And it just got worse and worse, the things being disclosed.
Seeking The Truth
Anne: Tell me more about that. Was he disclosing them to you because of therapy or how did the other disclosures happen?
Shelly: No, after the first disclosure, we tried to make it light. And smoked and was like, sometimes. I pulled away and was like, you said you never did that. Instantly my heart was broken. Then he started to lie and minimize, he said. It was only three times in our relationship that I’ve done that.
The thing is, once I switched on to the fact that he was lying to me and had lied to me, I could see it, and I could literally see him snaking around in front of me, lying to me. It was my warning system, and not letting it go and saying things like you said this, and that doesn’t add up. And okay, tell me this then, so what is it? There’s more I could feel it, I could feel it in my body every time he was lying to me. And I could see it.
So there were a lot of lies after the first admission. Who went through for about four months, maybe a bit more serious, like minimizing half truths. Outright lies with him shifting around and tripping himself up and saying something he hadn’t said before. Or saying opposite things, saying two different things, two different sides of one story.
And I said to him, you’re not even allowing me to heal, because you’re not telling me the whole truth. So after four or five months of this. And I was on it, I was on fire. I was just calling it the BS knife, because I was so sharply cutting through all these lies, my husband couldn’t be trusted again.
He Gives A Full Disclosure
Shelly: It culminated in going away and staying in a hotel room. And he was like, okay, I’m gonna tell you everything. He literally listed everything from childhood, told me stuff like when I wasn’t around. About him looking at other women just gave me what I felt was a full story. And it was incredibly traumatic.
Anne: Were you interested in that, or was this like a way of grooming you, or can you talk a little bit about that?
Shelly: I wouldn’t leave it until I got the full story. I needed to know everything. I needed to know who I was with. And it felt like pulling the truth out of him. It was my instincts that were telling me, you’re still not telling me the truth. There’s more and more. We had many horrific bombs dropped in my lap, with more and more truth, it got worse and worse.
Anne: So how are you feeling now?
Shelly: Like I said, it’s been a year. I did have moments where I was like, I don’t even know if I can love you anymore after this level of lies. I don’t think I can trust my husband again. But because of the work he’s done, a lot of meditation. He had a lightbulb moment when we listened to something, and it said the body doesn’t know the difference between what the mind is thinking.
So, if you’re reliving your trauma all the time, he compartmentalized and kept this in a separate dark box. And then he was the good dad and he was a good partner. In all the other boxes, he was full of light and this wonderful man, but then he had this dark box where he kept all that stuff.
What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Partner’s Realization & Efforts
Shelly: So he literally gave that energy to another person. When he’s supposed to be committed and loyal to me. My husband was proving I couldn’t trust him anymore.
Anne: On that note, he’s “such a good dad.” It was a feeling that you had, that something wasn’t quite right. But I want to talk about the other types of abuse that you experienced for a minute, the gaslighting and the emotional and psychological abuse. Do you think that even though it wasn’t overt, because I guess he wasn’t screaming in your face, he wasn’t, overtly calling you names that would have been obvious to you.
But do you think that might have been what you were picking up on? Even though you didn’t know that you were picking up on it because you couldn’t see it and couldn’t tell. But do you think that was what you were picking up on?
Shelly: Yeah, I do. I reckon my instincts were warning me, and self protection was kicking in.
Anne: So you and your partner were together in a committed relationship for how long when he disclosed his use?
Shelly: Seven years. So it’d been going on for seven years.
Anne: Why did he disclose it? That’s a question I always ask, because they could be repentant at this point where they’re like, oh my word, I can’t live like this anymore. I’ve got to come clean. I’ve got to change. That’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility where they want to hurt you. I’m not saying that’s your situation, and I’m not trying to convince you of that.
Why Disclose Now?
Anne: In my case, when my ex-husband was in addiction recovery, and was doing so well. Then near the end, there was a sudden turn where he started telling me he was using. Before that, he was lying to me about it.
When I look back, I’m like, I think he might have been having an emotional affair. There was something going on, and he wanted me to be the cause of the demise of our marriage. And so he was like, starting to be overtly aggressive and abusive. And then also just tell me he was using, because he knew that was a deal breaker for me.
And so that’s one of the questions I want women to think about is why now, because that might help as we’re trying to heal or determine, what do I want to do? Is this safe for me? Is it not safe for me to ponder that question? If my husband lied to me the whole time, why is he telling me the truth now?
Shelly: So I questioned him on that, and he said he felt it was getting to a point where it was out of control. He didn’t ever feel good about himself, because of what he was doing and living this double life. But he was scared to tell me the whole lot in one go. He didn’t have the strength to tell me everything in one go.
I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me. It seemed like he was lightly slipping the truth in. And then he was like, now I’ve got all hell to deal with. So then he was trying to backtrack and minimize, and giving me non-truth and half truth. How could I ever trust him again after this?
Can Ever Trust My Husband Again? I Think He Wanted To Change
Shelly: So I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me with that. And I think that he, maybe subconsciously, wanted to change. I hope that’s the case. I definitely don’t believe he was using that to try and hurt me, because he’s not vindictive in that way, and he always wanted to look after me. He knew me in these past relationships, he was my friend, and he came along like this knight in shining armor. And just wanted to protect me.
Then had this realization that he’d been exactly the same, and which he’s actually struggled with. We’ve spoken in great depth about the conditioning and objectification of humans. But obviously from this perspective, he was part of that, and he’s horrified with himself, and I believe that’s genuine.
He was in groups of friends that were, it was just normal, it was just, this is what guys do, it’s just normal. That might be fine. If you’re in a relationship and you’re fine with that, then that’s fine. But this isn’t, and it wasn’t, and he chose that because he knew my stance on that. He knew he was lying to me, so this wasn’t normal and okay.
And to consenting people and the coercion thing, realizing that I hadn’t been giving full consent. We’ve also spoken about that a lot, so he’s horrified with himself. Which I think is good. But, does that change whether or not I can trust him again?
Anne: Yeah, that is good.
Challenges In Counseling
Anne: I wondered about therapy. In my opinion, the likelihood of it worsening is too risky.
Shelly: I had the exact same feeling, actually. I wasn’t sure that any form of counseling would be helpful. Because of the tendency in society to normalize this stuff, and as long as you’re not physically cheating with someone else, then what’s the problem?
Anne: You’re like, oh, the lying. But yeah.
Shelly: Yeah, I was very apprehensive about any form of counseling. We went to the doctors, he wanted me to come with him. We sat with him. A female doctor, and he started talking and breaking down. He said he didn’t understand how he could do this to me. And struggled with his mental health and self perception. He was advised to take counseling. And they offered him a woman counselor on a screen, video calling, and I was like, I’m not comfortable with that.
I’m not comfortable with that at all. We’re like, we’re talking about, you’re looking at women on the screen. I’m not comfortable with you having counseling with a woman on a screen. That’s like in this space, I don’t feel safe with that. So he requested a man, and luckily he did end up with a really. good counselor who he was able to express where he was with in a safe place without it being normalized. I felt I was on my way to trusting him again.
And the lady doctor, when we went together, she said, do you want me to point you in the direction of addiction services? And he was like, I don’t actually think I have an addiction. It’s more of a choice that I decided to stop, where he didn’t go down that route.
Validation & Healing
Shelly: We both had counseling separately and thought about couples therapy. But again, my instincts were not fully on that either. So we haven’t, we’ve done a lot of work together just between us, in meditations, and in just hearing each other. A lot of it’s been me, speaking my heart and my pain. Sometimes, he’s struggled to deal with the anger, because he’s got a tendency to defend himself. So he’s working through that now.
But his determination to make it right has given me hope and stuck me here. Actually, the full disclosure of everything he did, he could have easily not told me, is that it’s been the truth that’s kept us together.
Anne: Can you talk about your journey to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery and want to share your story?
Shelly: I was talking to him and I said to him, there’s so much help for you, that it literally feels like there’s no help for me. It was only recently that I’d found out that this sort of trauma has a name. And then I was starting to look into betrayal trauma, and then connecting all the dots from the rest of my life previously.
It was actually him that was looking for ways to help me, and he discovered your podcast. And the first one he found was women saying, “This is the best way to heal from betrayal trauma.” And he was like, I want you to listen to this. And that was how I found you. I wanted to share my story, because I think that is another step forward in healing in our journey. Putting this out because I’ve kept it very close to my heart and it’s been hard.
What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Finding Support & Community
Anne: As part of your journey to healing, to find a community with women who have been through this? Who all worry about if they can trust their husband again.
Shelly: And feeling so validated in a world that normalizes this stuff and it’s everywhere. Feeling so validated for feeling so strongly about this and feeling so heartbroken about this. That validation has given me so much. There are other women wondering if they can trust their husbands.
Anne: Let’s talk about that validation for a minute. Can you talk about the difference in knowing that women are horrified and traumatized? And they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse on these intense levels. And that almost all society doesn’t recognize this type of trauma. What’s your feeling now that you realize you’ve been completely normal and that there are so many other women who feel the way you do?
Shelly: I feel like there’s an army of women out there that I’m part of. Before, I felt isolated and we would talk to friends. It would be like, I didn’t speak about this, about my personal experience with friends, but just in conversation. Oh yeah, as long as they’re not cheating and come back to you at the end of the night. It’s the validation that this actually affects people much more than is spoken about. Because people don’t talk about it. It’s giving it a voice.
Anne: And that’s why I do this podcast to give women like you the opportunity to share your story, share how you feel, share how this affected you.
Belief It’s Possible To Trust My Husband Again
Shelly: Yeah, that is a powerful thing. That’s a powerful thing, because before I knew of my emotions, I felt like I was on my own in that. I wasn’t, there are many others who also wonder what if they can trust him again.
Anne: I am so grateful that you’re a member of our community and supporting me in my healing process. I am honored and have been honored through the years to hear all these stories. Women who share these stories are in a vulnerable place, and it’s such an honor to like, sit with you. I know I was in the same spot. Maybe a different spot, because my husband’s character, was deceptive.
I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, about how I believe people can change. And, that makes this job hard, right? Because how do we know if someone is or isn’t when they’ve lied to you all these years, right? How can you tell if you can trust him?
So that place where you are right now in your healing process is a vulnerable spot, but it is okay to be there. And there’s no way to get out of it other than to go through it, because you want to make the right decision for you and your family. And we get that.
Shelly: Yeah, and you have to feel every layer of grief to release yourself from it. And it’s a hard thing to face, because it’s not anything that anyone would choose to feel. But that, the only way out is to go in, and that’s the process I’m in. And it feels like I’ve been doing it forever now.
Reflections On Change & Trust
Anne: Hopefully not forever, right? It’s been so interesting. My process, I feel so good now. But there were, I don’t know, 14 years where I felt like this is going to be forever. So I totally understand. I wondered if I could trust him again, and found out I couldn’t. Shelley, if you’re willing to come back and share how you’re doing in six months to a year.
I would love to have you come back on and share what’s going on, what you’ve learned through the process. So if you’re willing to do that, I would love to talk to you again.
Shelly: Yeah, definitely up for that, yeah.
Anne: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and keep in touch.
Shelly: Yeah, I will do, thank you.
Betrayal Trauma In Marriage, When It’s Not Getting Better
Feb 04, 2025
Victims of betrayal trauma in marriage often feel like they’re drowning alone. Months turn into years while she keeps going to therapists or clergy who don’t understand why she can’t “move past it.” She thinks something is wrong with her, when in reality, no one has given her the truth.
Before you spend one more day confused, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding what’s happening. That’s why I pulled together Clarity After Betrayal. It’s the starting place women told me they desperately needed before they wasted years trying to make sense of mixed messages, gaslighting, and chaos.
When Years of Betrayal Trauma in Marriage Takes a Toll
Nikki’s husband betrayed her for years: infidelity, lies, constant emotional attacks. He convinced her she was “too sensitive” and “too needy,” when the real issue was his pattern of betrayal.
If you’re thinking his behaviors might amount to emotional abuse here’s some examples of emotional abuse to check out.
Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Marriage
Anne: Today we have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Nikki. She’s from Australia. Welcome Nikki. So, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?
Nikki: Not at all. Goodness me, no. I was 15, just had my 16th birthday when I met my husband. I was in the UK. And we’ve been together ever since. I was six months pregnant with our first child. And he bought this little black bag home. And I hadn’t seen it before. We weren’t living together at the time. And he brought it back into my little flat, and being curious, opened it, and there was all this horrible material in there.
And said to him, this is not what I want as part of my life. I knew this wasn’t what I wanted, and he said, “Oh, I’ll get rid of it, I’ll get rid of it.” And there were other bits in this bag, which just baffled me. I was just horrified, and the next day I went into labor because I was just that traumatized, I guess.
So from that point, it kind of never stopped. I would continually find magazines under the couch. I mean, we tried getting help before we’d gone to several pastors who were basically just more about the codependent model. But I’d done nothing except to protect myself from betrayal trauma in my marrriage.
Nikki: Yeah, and I didn’t want our children to spend time with me and then time with him, because he’d gone down the rabbit hole. I didn’t want there to be a point where he was left with them alone.
Life in Australia, Lack of Support & Self-Education
Anne: Where do you live in Australia?
Nikki: I live in Melbourne, Victoria, but I’m from Tasmania.
Anne: Okay, how do you feel like the support is there?
Nikki: None, I have struggled to find anybody in this field that can help. So no, I never recognized the abuse, not until I started educating myself. And then it was when I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Facebook page that I knew that what he was doing was abuse, and I was experiencing betrayal trauma in my marriage.
Anne: Before you found BTR, when you were trying to get help, what types of things did you do to try and like, improve?
Nikki: Yep, I thought if I looked better, if I tried harder, if I loved him more, you know, I learned the love languages. I was always trying to improve myself, and even going to counseling to try and improve something. Yeah, I took it on board, but I think that’s much more to do with how I was raised to be a better wife. And then he wouldn’t do this thing.
Anne: There is so much you don’t know, there are so many powerful truths about emotional abuse. So you knew about the watching stuff online. Did you recognize the other types of abusive behaviors, like lying, manipulation, and gaslighting as betrayal trauma in marriage? Could you identify those back in the day? Or did you not realize all that was going on too?
Nikki: I knew there was lying and manipulation. Because that kind of goes hand in hand with sneaky behavior, doesn’t it? Yeah, it wasn’t until the internet came about and you could Google this kind of stuff that I became aware of it. It wasn’t until much later in our marriage.
Realizing Common Advice Doesn’t Work With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage
Anne: So when did you realize that common marriage advice, look good, love, serve, forgive, make sure dinner’s on the table, make sure the house is clean, you know, that sort of thing? People say marriage is hard work, and unless it’s abusive it’s just not true. And when did you realize that common marriage advice was not working and that the betrayal trauma in your marriage was not improving?
Nikki: Probably about 20 years ago.
Anne: And how long have you been married?
Nikki: We’ve been married about 27 years.
Anne: Okay, so seven years in, you realize, wait a minute, this isn’t working. What helped you realize that?
Nikki: I think it was shortly after we’d had intercourse, and I walked in and found him looking at stuff. I actually thought he deliberately tried to hurt me.
Anne: And when you thought that, he deliberately attempts to hurt me, you also didn’t think abuse way back then.
Nikki: No, not at all. It’s only the abuse part has been, I think, the last six years that I’ve seen his actions as being abusive.
Anne: Why do you think it takes so long for victims of emotional and psychological abuse and this type of coercion to understand the reality of their situation.
Nikki: Trauma, I think our brain sits in trauma because the person you most trust, the person you think will never hurt you, is doing it.
And I think it’s protection. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, I can only speak for me. Because whatever your circumstance is, there’s a part of you that needs to protect your own mind and yourself. Sometimes it’s about time. Your brain or your body is just not ready to realize that this is what it is.
Crisis Point & Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Anne: There’s also this education factor. You don’t have an abuse class in high school. Along with math and English, right? So many people think they understand abuse because they’ve seen a TV show where a guy beats up his wife, and they’re like, that’s what abuse is. And they don’t recognize all the different covert ways in a marriage that you can be abused and end up with betrayal trauma.
Nikki: I think it’s the gaslighting as well. Because it’s been so long in my marriage. It’s like, oh, no, I must have misunderstood what he said. Oh, no, he’s right. I’ve got that wrong. Oh, okay. I thought you meant this, but you actually meant this way. Oh, all right. So you’re second guessing yourself all the time.
Anne: What were you looking for online when you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery on Facebook?
Nikki: I hit a crisis point. The crisis point brought me to the fact that I was trying to seek some kind of support basically anywhere, because here in Australia it’s like, oh you’ll be right mate. So whoever you spoke to thought you were being prissy. It just wasn’t cutting it. I just felt so deeply ashamed and hurt that I needed some kind of support and wasn’t getting it in the real world. So when I came across the group, it changed the way I view my whole life.
Knowledge Is Power With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage
Nikki: Knowing that I’m not alone. Because I’ve always taught our children that knowledge is power. Once you have power, you can change the way you operate, change the way you do things. So for me, that’s been the greatest thing, being informed. And then being able to research that and having the facts behind it. Which has been a great thing.
Anne: Being educated about betrayal trauma in marriage brings so much confidence. Because the gaslighting, you’re like, Is this me? Is this real? What’s going on? And if you don’t have words for it, you can never fully define it to someone else. And so, they’ll give you typical things, like, Well, you just must be stressed.
Or maybe, don’t worry, it’ll get better. Things like that. Because you’re not able to say what’s happening with betrayal trauma in marriage. So getting educated, you can actually talk about it. Having words to describe it immediately helps people understand what’s happening. It also helps victims understand what is going on. Because there’s so much confusion.
Nikki: Yeah, for me, what I’m experiencing now, because I’ve been in this for a long time. And there’s been a lot of game playing. on his behalf, and I’ve just realized my body is actually physically, it’s started coming out. I’ve developed really bad tinnitus, which is a physical representation of what’s going on in the outside world.
Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Has An Impact on Physical & Mental Health
Nikki: And also, I find my brain is not working the same. As I’ve got older. And I think that’s because of the trauma that’s gone on throughout our whole marriage and childhood. My brain’s got to the point where it’s like, I don’t want to work anymore. I don’t want to hold this memory, or it just phases out or disassociates, which I know is part of the trauma. But it’s frustrating.
Anne: I can imagine. How old are you now?
Nikki: I’m 47. We have five children. They’re all adults now. Thank you, God, they survived. They’re pretty good people, but we’ve got four boys, one girl. And my children growing up, they’d ask him a question, and he wouldn’t respond. They’d always be, Oh, we’re going to go to the sensible parent. Meaning that we’re gonna go see mum.
Anne: He wouldn’t respond because he was distracted or he just couldn’t focus?
Nikki: I don’t know if he didn’t know the answer. So he didn’t want to look silly, so he’d muck about. Because I think his use of online material stunted his intellectual growth. He must have been about 14, I think. And I always developed critical thinking in our children. You know, I told them to think about the wheres, whys, and what fors of any situation.
And because he didn’t develop that skill, the children kind of overtook him in their thinking and emotional development. He just really frustrated them.
Anne: That makes sense. In terms of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the education and support you’ve received helped you make different choices about how you interact with him.
Taking My Power Back With Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Nikki: I no longer buy into his BS. Like, if I ask him a question and I know he’s done something, I know that whatever comes out of his mouth will be a lie. I state my case, I drop it, I walk away, and I allow him time to be truthful, and no longer check up on him, because I found that, oh my goodness me, it was driving me nuts. I felt like I was chasing my whole life, and I was trying to catch him out playing detective, and it just doesn’t work.
It just, for me anyway, and I understand there is some control, especially early on when you’re still buying into the gaslighting. But now I’m at a point where it’s like, you know what, you do you. I’ve gone out and I’m back in to work full time. I’m just living my life. to the best of my ability. And the group, like the conversations in the group, and the information in the group, helped me see that.
And so yeah, I’m grateful for that, because it’s given me my life back, and enabled me to take my power back as a woman, if that makes sense.
Anne: It makes sense. So we talk about boundaries to help yourself heal from betrayal trauma in your marriage a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and in the BTR group. Many people who don’t listen to the podcast, I would say, or misunderstand what we do, accuse me of being pro divorce or a man hater or something like that. Or that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is just a place where if you go there, you’re going to end up bitter and angry.
Boundaries & Misconceptions With Betrayal Trauma In Relationships
Anne: You are still married. Would you speak to that a little bit and talk about how do you see Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Like, I see us as a safety first organization, right? Your safety is the most important thing, and you can figure out what that looks like in your own life. But could you talk to that point?
Nikki: I’ve never seen you say get a divorce or be a man hater. You lay the facts out as they are. Whatever a woman does with that is their choice, their option. Yeah, what you promote though is, are you safe? Are you okay?
Anne: We have to walk this fine line, because when we talk about abuse, many people want to say, well, you should only encourage them to leave, like immediately.
Then there’s the addiction recovery people. They’re like, no, you should be nice and understanding. Don’t shame them, don’t make any decisions. And know they’re sick. And how can you help them? So we’re not on that side for sure, but I’m right in this section where I want to give people correct information and say, your safety is the most important thing.
And I am not living in your shoes. I’m not living in your home. I don’t know all your specific circumstances. So I trust every woman, every victim, to make. The best decisions about her particular situation. So I think that’s one thing that I’m wondering is, do you feel supported in your circumstances and where you are right now in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group? Do you feel accepted for the decisions you’re making?
Complexities Of Abuse Will Cause Confusion
Nikki: Yeah, people will always speak from their own inner knowledge or feelings, I think. So whatever you put out on a group. Expect that response from that aspect. You take what you can and leave what you don’t need.
Like you said, you’re the only one who knows what’s happening within the relationship. So yeah, I feel supported because I take what I need from it, because I am the only one that knows what’s happening and why I stay within my marriage. We’ve got a lot of financial obligations together. You know, we still have grandchildren that would visit, Grandad, and I’d much prefer to be around.
So I know why I stay within my marriage. And I think it’s up to every individual person to make that decision.
Anne: People who haven’t been through it, or people who have, I mean, it’s just a lot more complex than I think anybody can even wrap their head around. It’s such a complex situation and it unfolds over time. So not everything can be decided in a split second.
Nikki: Everything feels split second when you’re in it though, doesn’t it?
Anne: It does. And it feels like you have to, it feels like you have to decide or know everything. There’s this overwhelming desire to resolve things as quickly as possible, whatever resolution means or whatever fixing it means, but it’s impossible to resolve or fix quickly, right? This is a very, very long-term complex problem.
Nikki: You know, we’ve found a therapist, we’ve thrown all the money we can at him.
Anne: So you’re still with a man who’s continuing to exhibit emotionally abusive behaviors.
Future Hopes To Make The Best Of My Life
Anne: How do you feel right now?
Nikki: Oh boy, okay, so we’ve just had an episode, so everything’s a little bit raw for me just now. Because he’s what I think of as a surface person. He wants everything to look great on the outside, that everything’s going well, and that he’s doing underhanded things, and he gets off knowing that he’s getting away with it. So when he becomes overly nice, I then become on guard, and I wait for the next influx of abuse, emotional abuse.
He doesn’t yell, he doesn’t do any of that, he just becomes very quiet. We had, we’ll say, six months of nice. And so I was waiting for it. So we just discovered, and so we’re just going through that now, and he hasn’t gone back to see his therapist. So he’s just waiting to go back to see her, but it’s difficult, because I don’t know what she’s saying to him, or whether he’s telling her partial truths.
Have I reached some kind of peace within myself? There is peace around our marriage and our life? No, there isn’t peace. I’m making do with what I’ve got because of circumstance. And that’s awful to say, because it feels like a half life.
Anne: Do you feel like you’re progressing toward something? Even though current circumstances are what they are? Do you hope for the future?
Nikki: I’ve got a lot of hope for my future, because I’ll make the best of my life no matter what. For our marriage and for us together, we will have to make a step either away, and I don’t think it’s going to be too long down the road. There will be a conversation with my grown children.
There Will Always Be Complexity In A Marriage With Betrayal Trauma
Nikki: They know about his addiction. I just don’t think they realize how far he’s gone within that addiction. Yep, I’ve got peace in me, but within our marriage, not sure. We’ve got a few big decisions ahead of us, which will affect many outcomes for myself, my daughter, and him.
Anne: Well, that is what is so awesome. If I can praise Betrayal Trauma Recovery about BTR, is that we get it. We get it. We get how complex it is, we get that it takes a long time, sometimes. You know what the right thing is or what the thing is you want to do, not necessarily the right thing, but it’s not the right time or other factors, right?
There are so many complexities. And having someone who understands and be supportive is helpful. Should we call it that with a long-term trial like this? What should we call it? A long-term problem.
What would you tell other women? Let’s say what you went through in your early 30s, so if someone’s listening. And that’s where they’re at. Let’s say they’ve just discovered pornography for the first time.
Nikki: Oh my goodness. I’m sorry this is your journey. Get help. Get immediate help. Find a good support network. Find somebody you trust. That you can tell absolutely anything to. And will not judge. And will just be there for you.
Find that one person. And walk beside them, and let them walk beside you. Because that’s the best thing you can do for you, to heal you. And know that it’s not your fault. Know that he made choices that have affected both of your lives. It’s just not your fault, though.
Knowing About Abusive Marriages Helps With Betrayal Trauma
Nikki: And don’t try and fix him.
Anne: Oh, we’ve all done that.
Nikki: Yep, if we just do this, if I look a bit prettier if I wear this lingerie. If I do that risky behavior that he would like me to do, that’ll make him happy, and he won’t do it anymore.
Anne: When women go down that road, they end up doing it more. Or he wants it more, right? There’s no end to it.
Nikki: Oh, he wants a bit more freaky. The indulging of their immature behaviors, their man child silliness. And I think that’s something we don’t realize, isn’t it? Is it that they get themselves stuck emotionally at the age they start using? So what you’re actually doing is complying with a teenager, a child. And so, and what happens when a child doesn’t get what it wants?
It tantrums. And unfortunately, a man tantrum has a bigger impact, because they’re disposable, to play with like income or whatever it is, you know, that’s protecting the family.
Anne: Yeah, well, and also their tantrums are way more sophisticated, right? They might not scream, yell and punch the wall, although some of them do that. But their tantrum might look nice and kind when behind your back they’re spending $10,000 of their retirement.
Nikki: Yeah, or they’ve got a hidden phone, so they’re happy to show you the phone they’ve got. And all the while feeling proud of themselves that they’ve got a hidden phone, and that’s what gets them off.
Anne: Exactly.
When You Need Love, Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group
Anne: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and spending time with us today.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is that amazing place where you can be yourself and understood. Is there anything else that you would like to share about the group or about BTR that you have found helpful?
Nikki: For me, in the early stages and now as sort of, I won’t say a veteran, but I’ve been there for a while. This is the place you go to when you need to feel heard, you need to feel safe, you need to reach out. You know, or you just need somebody to say, Hey, I’m here for you. Or you need to feel loved. Because this group, for me anyway, has provided that. Get in contact. You know, try and join the group, because it’s just, if you want to feel loved, this is where it’s at.
Anne: That’s good to hear. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is love. They can make choices due to that love and confidence to get them to safety. That’s the whole goal.
Nikki: To know you’re not alone and that the crazy making that happens, sometimes this group, has helped me unravel that craziness. This is going on, and in your head, because they’ve gaslighted you so much, you’re forever double guessing your own mind, to notice that you go in there and somebody says, yep, that’s normal. My husband does that.
It’s like, it’s what they do, it’s one of their little tactics, and you just come away thinking, Oh, okay. And you can take a big sigh of relief to think, Oh, I’m not that crazy after all.
There is Hope After Betrayal Trauma In Marriage
Anne: Yeah, no, you are not. You are beautiful, amazing, competent woman. It’s a cool place to be, right? It’s a cool club to be in. With all these awesome women. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, and we’ll see you in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group.
Nikki: Thank you, Anne.
When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You – How To Deal With His Chaos
Jan 28, 2025
There is no fear or pain equivalent to the trauma when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.
Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or simply creating chaos out of everyday situations, abusers know that one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children.
When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You In The Courtroom
Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. They want chaos and enjoy the fight.
When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and live by boundaries.
Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom.
When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Use Your Own Anger
Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger.
They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice.
When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You: Abuse By Proxy
If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress.
Transcript: When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You
Anne: It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something I recorded years ago. When I got divorced, I started with a pretty good custody situation. However, my ex was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me almost daily. He’s an attorney, and a narcissist. Fighting a narcissist for custody is awful. https://www.btr.org/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody
And he neglected the kids, undermining their medical care. He cancelled medical appointments. He refused to support any of their extracurricular activities. Every day was chaos. I went to court six years post divorce to try to get him even less custody. He got more as a result of that case.
I was devastated, you’ll hear that in my voice. At the time, I recorded this. I didn’t know what would happen. But after I recorded it, I began studying deliverance and praying for deliverance. I asked God to show me strategies that I could use to enable Christ to deliver me and my children. That study led me on a journey, and a year later, I actually got absolute, full custody of my children, with my ex having extremely minimal time.
And these strategies I employed out of court. So this was not a result of a court case. He basically signed his rights away. He gave me full deciding power, and they only needed to go with him one weekend a month. Two holidays a year and one week in the summer, which is incredible.
Because that worked, I mentored other women with these same strategies to ensure it wasn’t just a fluke. Like, was this only gonna work for me? Or could it work when your ex uses the kids to hurt you, or for any woman in any situation? Whether she was still married, separated or divorced. Would these living free strategies work for anyone? And we found they did.
Writing The Living Free Workshop
Anne: To make sure that every woman had access to these strategies, I wrote the BTR Living Free Workshop. As you listen, you’ll hear how much I wanted to protect my children from this awful custody situation. I want you to know that we were delivered.
I believe my Savior, Jesus Christ showed me these strategies through my study. Now that’s in Living Free. So if you want to learn more about The Living Free Workshop.
So start with Living Free. All right, are you ready to hear this recording from years ago, before I found the living free strategies?
Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ.
For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardless of her paradigm, her faith, or the way that she sees the world.
Parable Of The Wheat & The Tares
Anne: I’ve been studying the parable of the wheat and the tares. For women of Christian faith, you’re probably familiar with the wheat and the tares. For everyone else, please indulge me. In Matthew 13, verse 25, where it says, but while men slept. Sometimes I wonder if that means that while the clergy, legal system, and basically any man who could stop the abuse, but won’t.
They will not hold the abuser accountable. They won’t believe us or listen to us. That as these men sleep, the children of the devil grew and grew until you could see their fruits, basically, is what this is talking about. Many victims of abuse try to justify not setting boundaries with the abuser, because he’s “a child of God.” Well, he’s a child of God. So I’m going to love him, God loves him. But that doesn’t mean he’s not hurting our kids.
But in this parable, starting in Matthew 13, it clearly states that there are children of the “wicked one.” And I’ve been thinking about the way the scriptures, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, describe men who are not obeying the commandments.
They don’t say, and he didn’t obey the commandments because he felt shame. They actually call them a word. And the word they call them is wicked. This is a common term used throughout the scriptures. Part of me wonders why don’t we use this term anymore?
And part of it is the Christian aversion to passing judgment. But Christ also asks us to decipher between good and evil. That’s part of the reason why we’re here on earth. There are those of us who have set boundaries.
Setting Boundaries When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You
Anne: We’ve removed everything the abuser can use to hurt us. Essentially, there’s nothing left for them to use to hurt us, except for one thing, our children. Your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Because they’re the dad, they can assert control that way. Every day, I hear stories of sheroes, victims of abuse, who are not believed or supported by their churches.
Every day, I hear about how their children, these children of wicked men and righteous mothers. Are dragged through chaos and pain regarding custody in the courts, because the wicked have no desire for peace. That’s not their goal. Their goal is to win.
I wonder if you would do something with me, and if our whole community will do this. And for you atheists, maybe just hold it like a moment of silence or something that works for you. Like offer it up to the universe. Will you pray every morning and night for the next 30 days that the tares can be gathered and burned? Talking about that classic parable from Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares. I know it’s apocalyptic. It sounds intense.
We’ve also talked so much about boundaries on this podcast. The boundaries separate us from harm. No matter what boundaries you use, they can still actually be abusive. So the only thing you can do is separate yourself from the harm. You can’t stop the harm, but boundaries are definitely the most important and basically the only tool in our toolbox to get to safety.
Self sufficiency brings us peace. Boundaries bring us as much peace as possible. Even after we have essentially said, get thee hence to our abusers, these children of the wicked one, they still have a way to hurt us through our children.
Scriptural Helps & Safety
Anne: There’s nothing you can do in many cases, when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. We’re not able to command armies like the men in the scriptures to protect their families when they go to war. We don’t have that ability, but we do have an army of angels to help us. One of my favorite scriptures regarding the wheat and the tares says, behold verily, I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night. Who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields.
And then another scripture in Mormon 8 verses 40 through 41 says, Yea, why do you build secret abominations to gain and cause that the widows should mourn before the Lord. And also orphans to mourn before the Lord for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you, and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you. For he will not suffer their cries any longer.
The parable of the wheat and the tares is related to Matthew 24:40. Where the scriptures say, Then shall two be in the field, and one shall be taken, and the other left.
Call For Prayers For Peace & Deliverance
Anne: Will you pray with me morning and night for the next 30 days? That the tares in our lives, the children of the wicked one that are fully ripe and have the fruits to prove their wickedness. Will be removed from our lives so that we can have peace?
Here’s another scripture. In second Nephi 26, three through four, it talks about the wheat and the tares. It says, and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish. And they perish because they cast out the righteous (women). I’m paraphrasing there, and stone them and slay them.
Wherefore, the cry of the victims of abuse shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. Verse four, where for all those who are proud and that do wickedly. The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, for they shall be as stubble. And in Isaiah 35:4 we read, say to them that are of a fearful heart, be strong, fear not, behold, your God will come in vengeance. Even God with a recompense, he will come and save you.
Personally speaking, you may have heard several podcasts where I said I was going through a difficult thing. And I didn’t say much about it, because it had to do with a custody case regarding my children. Which I actually lost. So I wanted to share with you that I did everything right.
Personal Custody Struggles When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You
Anne: I was honest. I was forthright. I said my concerns and the people involved just did not believe me. And I saw the writing on the wall. I lost and settled the case. As a result, my children have a much more difficult custody schedule.
Something else that came out of that was that instead of going through my dad. I know I’ve talked for years about how we’ve communicated through my dad, and I’ve done no contact. It became obvious to me that the court did not like that at all. So I switched from my dad being the mediator to using the Our Family Wizard app. I don’t have it on my phone, but I do have it on my computer, and I check it every day. That’s another way I don’t get emails, phone calls or texts that trigger me.
So that it’s at least separated from me, all the contact goes through Our Family Wizard. That’s been working really well. A lot of prayer to figure out how to do this right. It’s been a process. So my custody situation is worse for my children now. Things are very hard, and I’ve just recognized that the court system, the clergy system, the religious system, really doesn’t help victims. We really do have to be our own sheroes.
Reporting Abuse Can Be Unsafe
Anne: If you have physical abuse happening, reporting is a good idea, but it can be unsafe in so many ways. So if you have something criminal to report. I highly recommend you schedule an individual session with Coach Renee, who can help coach you on how to do that with your local authorities. The outcome obviously cannot be guaranteed, but to give you the best experience possible, because it’s going to be traumatic. Regardless, the court system is a mess.
I brought Tina Swithin on and Wendy Hernandez, and I’ve just been doing a ton of study on custody things. And really, the conclusion I came to is that God is our only hope, or the universe, or whatever you believe in, but for me it’s God.
Our only hope for justice is through our Heavenly Parents, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I’ve turned my heart to Him and realize that there isn’t anything worldly that can protect me in this instance. Where I share children with my abuser. The laws require us to maintain contact with the man who harmed us. He continues to lie and abuse, harming us and our children.
So after losing this case, me Anne, I don’t know everything you guys know. I don’t know everything. I’m just like you and I’m in the process of learning, but I thought I could figure it out. Like I followed Tina Swithin’s advice.
I followed Wendy Hernandez’s advice. I had a good attorney, and I prayed, prayed, and prayed. It still didn’t go the way I wanted. So here are a few things I’ve come to grips with.
Hope & Faith In God
Anne: One part of me wonders if the reason I didn’t win and why things are harder for my children is because I believe God asked me to start this organization and to podcast here. My ex used the kids to hurt me. Maybe your ex uses the kids to hurt you.
He’s asked me to talk to you. In the past when I said, do no contact. And you guys were like, it’s hard to do no contact. The court won’t let me. I was like, no, you can do it. Now I’m thinking, man, I never had that experience when the court was like, no, you can’t do that.
Now here I am. So. I wanted to empathize and apologize if I made it seem easy. Because for six years, my custody situation was fantastic, and then my ex got remarried. And with that, he has his new wife to care for the kids. So of course he wanted to take them more, because he doesn’t have to take care of them.
Now that I’m here, my heart goes out to all of us who have been through this, and I’m sorry if I made it seem easy before. It’s not, it’s really hard. Also, for all of us who have done everything right, we’ve done every single thing. We have reported crimes, set boundaries, and separated ourselves from the harm. And we’re still not able to actually stop the harm to our children.
It is the most excruciating difficult situation. And it’s long term, and it reminds me of the people in the scriptures who are in bondage. The Israelites and in the Book of Mormon, there are Nephites in bondage. This bondage scenario keeps coming to me over and over again.
When your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Pray For Deliverance
Anne: So in addition to praying for the tares to be removed from our lives. Rather than praying your husband will change, might I suggest praying for deliverance? In the scriptures, people in bondage pray for deliverance, knowing that God is their only option. The law can’t help them, and in the Israelites’ experience, the law was the Egyptians. The law ruled them in bondage. So they have no way to get out.
I think that’s the case with us. The righteous, currently speaking, are in bondage from the wicked in their homes or out of their homes from their ex husbands. And how do we get delivered? In my opinion, we need to humble ourselves and let God know that He is our only option. That the courts don’t understand this. They think he’s just trying to be a good dad. But that’s not it, and therapists don’t understand he’s just using the children to hurt you.
That we only have one option. And that is our Savior, who somehow leads us out of bondage, and delivers us. So my suggestion is to pray for deliverance, rather than to pray that your husband will change. Or pray he’ll get it, or see the light, and pray for deliverance. That deliverance can come in two ways. It can come through him repenting. That would actually deliver you from abuse. The second option for deliverance is that he could be removed from your life somehow.
That deliverance would be a miracle. Now, I don’t want to put limits on God. Maybe there are 10 other options that I don’t know about, but there are at least two. And I think praying for deliverance is what we need to do. And I think we’ve missed the boat when we pray for something else.
Praying For Custody Case & My Situation Got Worse
Anne: I was praying for my custody case, and my custody situation got worse. My child support situation got worse. There was literally nothing in the last case that I went through that got better. Every single thing I wanted, I didn’t get. After we settled, all the things I thought would happen are happening now.
It just shows me that his only concern or interest was winning, not the best interest of the children. How do you negotiate or do the best thing for your kids? If every time you suggest what you think is the best thing, that other person cares about winning. They just want to contradict everything you do or say, it just doesn’t work.
It’s not going to work for kids, but in the meantime, we’re not being delivered, it’s a difficult place to be. There is a popular Instagrammer who was abused for a long time. She doesn’t recognize it as abuse, and now she’s super positive about her divorce.
She is like, I wish him well, and now we’re co-parenting together, and it’s co-parenting with a narcissist. And never acknowledged the abuse or what was happening. She is now going on to live her best life. And I’ve been really triggered by it, actually. Because I want to live the life I want to live. But I’m still faced with this oppression from an abuser. I don’t know, I just have so many feelings about it.
I have so many feelings about it, like, if I just think about it differently, will it be different? There’s that like new age thinking, you know, if you’re grateful, that will fix it. But it’s hard to be grateful when your ex is using the kids to hurt you. Here’s a comment similar to this, that we got on the podcast the other day.
Your Comments Help Others Find Us
Anne: By the way, please comment on any of the podcast episodes. Every one of your comments helps isolated women find us. I love hearing your feedback, what you think about the episodes, and your experience. If something I say on an episode or something that one of the guests says is something you’ve been through, like if your ex uses the kids to hurt you.
Please go to BTR.ORG, find that episode and comment. I want to know if this has been your experience too. So a woman commented and said, “I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I am with you too. Your words struck a chord, especially the parts about your husband lying, even when you had proof, minimizing the situation and not facing the truth. Not knowing everything is driving me crazy.
“The scenarios I am now imagining are far worse than any truth could be. And yes, how do we begin to move forward when looking back at our lives is so excruciatingly painful when faced with the cold fact that it was fake. And we were taken for a fool.”
“I hope you’re doing okay in this new painful reality we seem to find ourselves in. I read somewhere that we have three possible choices after betrayal: To become bitter, go mad or grow. And I wish you love and strength on your path.”
I’m grateful for this comment. One of the things that struck me was these three possible choices after betrayal. This Instagrammer I previously talked about who’s now facing divorce with resilience. She’s pulling her bootstraps up, and happy, and will live her best life. She’ll say things like that. Either become bitter, go mad, or grow. So I’m going to choose growth.
It’s Okay to be Angry When He’s Hurting You And Your Kids
Anne: The woman who commented on this, I’m not sure what her status is. But I think, “You have these three choices,” is a misogynistic trope. I hate to call her out, but I need to point this out when I read that. That this misogynistic trope is that women can’t be bitter or angry, that women must grow through this.
I just want to relieve every woman on the planet of the concern about being angry (bitter). If you were not angry about what happened to you, you would go crazy. Like, you would be a robot. I don’t know, something would be wrong with you. Like, it’s not normal to not be angry in this situation. Being angry is a normal reaction when your ex is hurting your kids. One of my goals is to help women embrace their anger to get to emotional and psychological safety. So please don’t ever worry about being bitter.
The anger will dissolve once you are safe. Men generally tell women not to be bitter when women are justified in their anger. And the abuse hasn’t stopped yet.
So generally speaking, when a woman is still angry, they’ll say, well, she’s been angry for a long time. So now she’s bitter. And maybe she’s angry because he hasn’t stopped hurting the kids.
Permission Given To Be Angry & Bitter
Anne: Even in my case, I’ve figured out how to separate myself from harm well. It’s still happening. I have no legal recourse, no way of stopping it. People saying, “Hey, don’t be a bitter woman, angry woman, or crazy woman.” It’s simply a manipulation tactic to how abusers gaslight women into not taking steps to safety.
I want to give everyone permission to be angry, be bitter even. There aren’t these three options. It’s not like you become bitter, you go mad or you grow. Those are not the three options you have. You have one choice, one path. The path is to get to real, true emotional and psychological safety.
That is your goal. If you’re on that path to safety, you’re angry, great, or you seem crazy to some people because you move out. And they think, your husband’s so great. Why are you moving out? You seem crazy. Fine, the goal, the one possible option for you is to get to safety. I believe the actual distance you put between yourself and the harm, the safer you feel, and the less angry you will feel over time.
And that’s because your anger is a gift from God. That will help you take action, and the reason why everybody is afraid of an angry woman is because an angry woman takes action. People do not want women to take action. So, please, anger is the best. I love anger right now. I’m excited about it.
Think about what anger can do for you. Can it help you get to safety and feel happy and peaceful? That’s the goal. Anger is not the goal. Think about what spurs you to action? Anger is a great resource God gave us to use when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.
The Character Of Abusers
Anne: Many times in the scriptures, it talks about prophets or people angry with the wickedness of the world. They took action to bring peace for themselves and their families, and that’s awesome. Another thing that we’ve talked about many times on the podcast is that abuse is a behavior. Like when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.
If you say look at their behaviors, there’s also this manipulative kindness that can happen, grooming. When they groom to manipulate can leave women wondering is my husband grooming me? There’s one other factor here, and it could be that yelling at you is a sign of his abuse. Well, what if you yell at him? Is that a sign of your abuse? Or is that a sign of you trying to stand up for yourself? Are you trying to take action when your ex is still hurting the kids?
I think the better way to think about abuse, rather than behavior, is that it’s a character. An abusive character means even kindness is for an alternate purpose. Even kindness has a goal behind it. It’s not to care for that person. It’s to manipulate or use them. That’s what we’re looking for, is their character the character of manipulative kindness or exploitative privilege? Or is it genuine care and protection for you? I’ve had many conversations about the term entitlement.
We know that one of the four pillars of abuse. You can find this infographic in the back of my book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can also see that four pillars of abuse floating around on Instagram and Facebook pages of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And one of the four pillars of abuse is entitlement. This is not a strong enough word. We need a stronger word.
Exploitative Privilege, When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You
Anne: I came up with the word exploitative privilege. Which means they use their privilege as a man to exploit women. As a woman, you owe me. You owe me intimacy, dinner, you owe me to take care of the kids, and I don’t need to do any of that.
These are the things that I’m entitled to as a man. And I’m going to avail myself of these things. That is exploitative privilege to exploit their spouse, which is an abusive behavior. People who don’t have an abusive character don’t want to exploit other people. It makes them feel uncomfortable.
https://youtu.be/t-Kt15CpMdY
But people with an exploitative abusive character will sometimes be kind, because it’s goal oriented. So that’s another word that I want you guys to think about. Rather than entitlement, although entitlement can work, and if it works for you, great.
This other term exploitative privilege, I think, defines what’s happening more. That it is the exploitative privilege that misogyny affords them. Because of that, all their actions and conversations are through that lens of exploitative privilege, it’s important to try to prevent exploitation. https://www.btr.org/how-to-prevent-exploitation/ That is always an abusive situation. Rather than a relationship with someone who sees you both as equals, both your needs are equal, both your responsibilities are equal.
Where you’re an equal partner. Someone who sees you as an actual equal partner, not someone to be used, is not abusive. Their character will not be abusive. Even if they yell because you got a flat tire or something, it’s not the yelling necessarily that is the abuse, because some of these abusers never yell. They do everything with a smile on their face, and everything they do is well crafted and looks good. But it’s the goal. What is the goal? When your ex hasn’t stopped hurting the kids.
My Current Reflections
Anne: So, that’s where I am in my life right now. I’m thinking about the wheat and the tares. I’m thinking about deliverance and I’m thinking about how anger can help us with that. So, will you pray with me for the next 30 days that the tares can be removed from our lives? That we can be delivered? And consider how anger can help us take action to separate ourselves from the wicked. Separate ourselves from those who would do us harm, rather than those who want peace. And use our anger to take action when your ex hurts the kids.
Because abusers goal isn’t peace. Their goal is control. Our goal is safety and peace. It really is. I don’t know of any woman who necessarily wants to control things. They just want things to be peaceful. I appreciate your prayers. If you have prayed for me, if you knew about the custody thing, now my only hope is through my Savior, Jesus Christ. That my children and I will be delivered, and that through the grace of God, we can live the peaceful life that I want to live.
That is promised to the righteous. Then maybe it’s not in this life. I also consider my situation much better than some. So gratitude definitely has a place. I am much more peaceful now than ever. Even though my custody situation is worse. And even though my child support situation is worse. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for what I’ve learned. And I hope our faith will fruit a miracle, and move a mountain.
Miracles Come Through Hard Work
Anne: My nine year old son lately has been saying the most interesting things. We’ve been out weeding the garden, for example, and he’ll say, Mom, we have a miracle here. I’ll be like, what are you talking about? And he’s like, we have a miracle of this beautiful garden. Do you know what made the miracle happen?
And I’m like, no, what? He’s like weeding, our weeding made a miracle. And he said the same thing about grocery shopping. He’s like, we went grocery shopping, and that made the miracle of this dinner.
And I said, so what makes a miracle? And he said, Mom, work, hard work. At this point, we’ve done the work sisters. So many of us have done so much work. We have worked and worked. My hope is that through our prayers and faith, we can rest in the Lord and ask him to deliver us. And ask him to remove these tares from our lives, so we can rest.
No, I don’t want us to bring on the second coming if you’re a believer in that. That sounds miserable, and I’d rather be safely dead than experience that. But maybe that’s what God’s waiting for. I don’t know.
Being able to share my own experience, has been a blessing to me personally. I’m grateful to have met all of you wonderful sisters along this journey. So thank you.
It’s both validating to hear how far I’ve come, and also sad. I’m like I look back and think, wow, I was being harmed and I didn’t even recognize it.
If you’re in a dark place and you don’t know how to get out of the chaos your husband or ex-husband is creating, learn about The Living Free Workshop.
If You Think Your Husband Is Lying, Read This
Jan 21, 2025
When you can’t shake the feeling your husband is lying, you start living in two realities at once. The version he presents… and the version your gut keeps whispering about.
Most women tell me that whisper eventually becomes impossible to ignore.
I’ve interviewed over 200 women who discovered their husband’s lies—affairs, double lives, hidden behaviors, shifting stories. Almost all of them said the same thing: “I wish someone had told me what was actually happening so I didn’t waste months—or years—trying to make sense of the confusion.”
The Subtle Signs Your Husband Is Lying (That Most Women Miss)
Before you hear Stacey’s interview—where she discovered her husband was living an entire double life—you need something women rarely get:
A framework that makes sense of your confusion, before you…
go through one more circular conversation
spend years in couple therapy
doubt yourself one more time
If you’re wondering whether your husband is lying, you do not need more conversations that go nowhere. You need answers. Fast.
If You Think Your Husband Is Lying, Start Here
My Clarity After Betrayal Workshop ($27) gives you the exact tools women told me they wished they’d had before they went to clergy or therapy for help.
It helps you:
recognize when conversations are meant to confuse you
stop second-guessing yourself
see what’s actually going on in your marriage
know your next steps with confidence
This is the foundation. Without knowing these things, the women I interviewed said they went around in circles for years after they discovered his lies.
When Your Husband Is Lying, It’s Not Your Fault You Don’t SEe It
The women I interviewed on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast described the same unmistakable patterns:
1. The rehearsed pauses
In my interviews, I heard about a moment when she asked a simple question… and he paused.
She remembered his blank look. His delayed answer. His strange shift in his tone.
Turns out he needed that time to think about which version of the story he was going to share. Which version put him in the best light and kept her in the dark.
2. The “You’re overreacting” deflection
Women told me about how he redirected the focus onto her tone, her timing, or her memory so she stopped noticing the inconsistencies in his story.
3. The polished image
Many women discovered that her lying husband often looked impressive everywhere else. He appeared:
deeply spiritual
charming and respected
responsible and accomplished
gentle, “could never hurt anyone”
values-driven
This is partially why his lies were so difficult to comprehend. The disconnect between how he was perceived and who he really was left most women feeling more isolated than the lying itself.
Why It’s So Hard to Trust Yourself When Your Husband Is Lying
When women began to ask questions, many describe an internal battle:
“Maybe I misunderstood.”
“Am I too sensitive?”
“I shouldn’t push him.”
“Is it just stress?”
But here’s the truth: You don’t start questioning your reality unless something is already destabilizing it.
If your husband is lying, he’s consistently creating tiny confusions constantly, shifting explanations. Because of that, it’s natural for women to doubt themselves. And that doubt isn’t a flaw, but it is a signal.
What To Do When Your Husband Is Lying: You Need Answers, Not Circles
Trying to “get to the truth” with him if he’s lying can keep you trapped in cycles of:
confusion
self-doubt
temporary solutions that don’t pan out long term
You deserve to know what over 200 women told me they wished they’d known. That’s why I put together my Clarity After Betrayal workshop.
Stacey’s Story: The Day She said out Loud, “My Husband Is Lying”
On my podcast, Stacey shared how she spent years trying to make sense of her husband’s inconsistencies, until she discovered he had an entire second life she didn’t know about.
Her answers didn’t come from more conversations with him. It came from recognizing the pattern behind the confusion, the same pattern hundreds of women describe.
And once she saw it, she couldn’t unsee it.
Transcript: I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Stacey. She’ll share her story. Welcome, Stacy.
Stacey: Thank you. It’s great to be here.
Anne: Can you start at the beginning? Did you recognize your husband’s behaviors as abuse when you began your relationship with him?
Stacey: No, not at all. You were the first one that made me ever consider it abusive, just from listening to your podcasts. Before that, it had never even crossed my mind
Anne: Let’s start with that. What types of behaviors were you experiencing that led you to want some help? What made you think,”My husband is lying to me?”
Stacey: Well, he had an affair. About five years after the affair, things weren’t moving forward. I couldn’t figure out why. And that is the first time I heard the term gaslighting. And that’s when I started to search more for answers. I realized the extent of what had happened, and how I had been emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually abused, I mean everything he said was practically an example of emotional abuse. Just the extreme gaslighting that had gone on and was still going on.
Anne: Learning how abusers gaslight can help figure out what’s going on. Had that gaslighting and manipulation happened throughout your whole marriage? Once you knew what you were looking at and looked back, did you recognize it had been happening the whole time?
Stacey: For sure. I discovered he was looking at online explicit material just about a month after we married. And I think that’s when I knew I didn’t marry who I thought I had. But I felt stuck, because the next day after I found out he was looking at it, I found out I was pregnant. And that’s when I just thought, there’s nothing I can do, I’m stuck.
When You Can’t Shake The Feeling Your Husband Is Lying
Anne: So what persona did he use to manipulate you? Of course, this is going to hurt you because lying is emotionally abusive.
Stacey: Well, he’s super spiritual, and we did all the religious things. I just thought I married a spiritual, religious, truthful person. I didn’t think he was capable of the lies and betrayal that ensued.
Anne: So how long between discovering it and when you discovered the affair? That you figured he was lying. Was that, I’m guessing, like 10 years or something?
Stacey: Yeah, 10 years.
Anne: Oh, see, I’ve become a psychic now that I’ve been doing this for so long. So 10 years, and how did you discover the affair?
Stacey: Our marriage was just falling apart. I could not explain why. And I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I thought it was me. He called me mean throughout our marriage. And also unattractive. Stuff like that. So I thought, you know, it’s just me. We ended up moving. I thought maybe it was our neighborhood and we moved across the state.
And after we moved, nothing changed, and it still kept falling apart. Then I heard him one time on the phone, and he was talking to someone. I heard him saying things that just really sounded wrong. Like he said, you know, we just met the wrong way. We can’t continue our relationship, we just started wrong, and I’m like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to a girl, and he is having an affair and he’s lying to me.
Because it had crossed my mind, and I had brought it up to him before, asking him if he had an affair. I said, my brother and his friend actually said it sounds like you’re having an affair.
Uncovering the Affair SHe WasN’t Supposed to Know About
Stacey: He was so defensive about it and was like, I can’t believe your brother would ever accuse me of that. That’s so ridiculous. I can’t believe you’d ever think that. And now looking back, he was having an affair at that exact moment and lying to me. But he was so good at making me think I was crazy to even consider that.
So anyway, I overheard him on the phone and I thought, Oh my gosh, he is having an affair. And he turned the corner and saw me listening to him, and his face just said it all. It just said it all, but he talked his way out of it. I said, who are you talking to? And he just stared at me. And then finally, like a half an hour later, he finally answered and said, it was the guy from work. I just feel bad.
Because I was talking about me and you, and how we started wrong, and how we were just friends and shouldn’t have gotten married, but that was my first clue. And then later on, I found him texting her about a month later.
Anne: It took him a minute to figure out a story to tell you that he thought you would believe. One that made you look bad.
Stacey: Absolutely.
Anne: Let’s talk about that stare for a minute. He just stares at you in space, right, for a little bit. Kind of a lack of blinking, would you say? Sort of a flat affect on his face?
Stacey: Yeah, absolutely.
Anne: Had you seen that ever in your marriage before?
Stacey: I guess from time to time. I can recognize it now for what it was.
The “Stare of a Liar”: Recognizing That Frozen, Blank Look
Stacey: To me, it’s so obvious now, looking back on it. Like, of course, he’s trying to come up with a lie. Why wouldn’t he just answer me if he wasn’t going to lie? But I wanted his story to be true. So I would accept it, because it was so much easier to think, okay, ah, he’s not having an affair. It’s okay. It’s just me. I’m the one that needs to change.
Anne: I saw this stare recently with a neighbor kid. Which I thought was interesting. So he had been singing a very off-color song, and my son picked up on it and he was singing it. I’m not sure he knew what he was saying, my son. So when this neighbor kid came over, I said, “Hey, that song is not okay.”
You cannot sing it around my kids. You shouldn’t be singing it at all. This is a nine year old kid. He stares at me with this blank stare for a minute, for a while, doesn’t say anything, nothing. And then after, I don’t know how long, he says, “Oh, that song, that song’s about social distancing.”
And I was like, no, that’s a lie. That’s not true. You just took a minute to come up with what you thought was a plausible story. But that’s not the truth. You need to go home. And I sent him home. Because I was done. This is ridiculous. I think it’s interesting that an adult man, 40 years old, 50 years old, is still doing that.
Stacey: Right.
Anne: And thinking, okay, if I don’t make any moves, like no sudden movements, right?
Seeking Help When You Know Your Husband Is Lying
Anne: I need to get my story straight. They’re not thinking about you in that moment. How they hurt you or anything about you. All they’re thinking is what is she going to believe? It takes some energy when your husband lies to you.
That’s why they’re sort of frozen there for a second, because there’s a lot happening inside their head. And they’re trying to keep their face pretty still, so they don’t give anything away while they’re working out how they’re gonna lie to you. Or they’re working out how to manipulate you.
Stacey: Absolutely.
Anne: Yeah. I’ve heard that called like a narcissistic stare before. I’m going to call it the stare of a liar.
Stacey: Yeah, yeah, cause it’s a definite look.
Anne: Many women have seen this over the years, but they don’t know what to make of it. And they don’t know what they’re looking at, right? When they see it. So five years go by after this affair. And things are just not getting better. And then you go looking for help. While you are experiencing the stages of deliverance from abuse. How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery?
Stacey: I went to just Apple podcasts and searched for betrayal trauma. And that was the same time too. It took about five years to ever even hear the word betrayal trauma. I had been to plenty of counselors, religious counselors and leaders. I’d been to groups that my church put on. I hadn’t heard of betrayal trauma before either.
The Subtle Signs Your Husband Is Lying (That Most Women Miss)
Anne: After that initial incident, where you found out about it a month after you were married. Did you see any other use, or that was it? And then he hid it well after that.
Stacey: He let me in on enough truth that I wouldn’t know he was lying to me. So I always knew he had a online explicit material problem or would view it, but he would say. I look at it once, every three to six months, and that’s all. I don’t have a problem. Or every once in a while he’d talk to our religious leader and he would tell me that, and so I thought, oh okay, he’s honest with me, I didn’t know he was lying to me.
And I used to say, “You know, if you look at it, tell me or if you’re struggling, let’s talk about it.” But it was interesting, because in our relationship he rarely initiated intimacy, he just wasn’t affectionate. And I’d always think, what is wrong with me? Everyone else I hear about their husband can’t keep their hands off of them. What’s wrong with me and come to find out he was he was lying. He was masturbating once a week.
And he had never brought that up, so it’s like taking care of himself. And not interested in an emotional relationship with someone else.
When Your Husband Is Lying About His “Progress”
Anne: Your experience is actually more common when it comes to a user. So many women think , he just wants it all the time because he’s into this gross stuff. I would say generally speaking, you get one or the other. Someone who wants to have it, like, more than is healthy. And then the other situation where they just don’t seem interested, they don’t initiate, they’re not planning dates. They’re not interested in you as a person.
Like, they don’t get you gifts for Christmas. Where it’s like, who am I to you? I remember asking my ex once, while we were married, how do you show me that you care? And he had that blank look on his face for a minute, and then guess what he said? I mow the lawn.
Stacey: Oh.
Anne: And I was like, you mow the lawn anyway. You, you would mow it for yourself. So that’s not a thing. Did you go down the addiction recovery route for a while?
Stacey: Not at first. I thought everyone looks at it, and he just does it sometimes. During that time, after I found out about use before I found out about the affair. My sister-in-law left my brother over it. And I talked to her and said, “This is so ridiculous that you’re leaving him over this.” I got really mad, and it ruined our relationship. And now looking back. Wow, I have a different view now. We went to addiction recovery after I found out about the affair.
Using Language From His Program To Lie Even More
Anne: Is this with the church, like a church program? Okay, did you find his behaviors got any better, that he used to groom you?
Stacey: A little bit, yeah. He did go to addiction recovery group a little bit, like throughout the course of our marriage, but he would just kind of go to a meeting here and there, and then he would say he didn’t need it. And it wasn’t helpful to him. But when we started going after the affair, it made a little difference, not a lot.
Anne: And I would say that was grooming. Where you think it helped a little bit would be that he could use the language he learned there to groom and lie to you. He was able to weaponize those things to make you feel like he was getting better when he actually wasn’t.
Stacey: Yes, totally.
Anne: We find that therapy, addiction recovery, even clergy meetings, if they want to hide their behaviors. They’re going to use that to groom, and they’re going to learn the language. Some guys even use the language of mindfulness. Or yoga, or I’m so emotionally healthy. Like, I think a real red flag on any dating platform is that someone says they’re interested in emotional health. They had a woman partner who was like, hey, we need to be healthy.
And they’ve been to therapy, learned the language and weaponized it. Because if you meet a man who’s like, “Oh, my previous spouse was emotionally unhealthy. She wasn’t caring. She wasn’t this, she wasn’t that.” Then that new partner will be like, well, I’m caring. I’m understanding. And that is just grooming right out of the gate.
How He Used Therapy Lingo To Hide The Truth
Anne: They like weaponizing this therapy language, the recovery language, like, I’m not the enemy, online explicit material is the enemy.
Stacey: Right.
Anne: I’m not the enemy, Satan is the enemy. And I agree, Satan is the enemy, and online explicit material is the enemy, but you are on that side. You’re behind enemy lines. You’re dangerous to me because you are lying to me.
Stacey: Yeah, it’s interesting what you’d say about him using therapy language, because he would use these terms. And it would drive me crazy. Because I’m like, you sound like a record, like you just learned these terms, and now you’re going to use them on me. I just felt like, not a human. I’m, no, I’m a human with emotions. You can’t just use these pre-recorded terms with me.
Anne: So we come from the same faith tradition, where we believe Satan tried to overthrow God in the pre-existence before we came to earth. In our faith tradition, we believe Satan understands God’s plan. Like he understands the commandments. He understands all of it. He just doesn’t apply any of it. And I think that’s what these guys are like. They understand the therapy language, and all the clergy stuff.
They read the Bible, and know all the scriptures. But it doesn’t actually lead them to repentance. Similar to Satan. He knows all these things. He just doesn’t ever repent. It never changes, and I think without the application, without actually having a change of heart. And actually being converted. Of course Satan’s gonna stay the same no matter what he knows.
Her Husband Was Lying to Clergy and Therapists Too
Anne: So the scary thing about addiction recovery, therapy, reading your scriptures more or anything like that is that if you’re not going to apply them. You just become more and more dangerous.
Stacey: Absolutely.
Anne: So when did you realize that common marriage advice, Christian marriage advice, like love, serve, forgive, be understanding. When did you realize that that was not working?
Stacey: Right after I found out about the affair, we started going to a counselor. He actually said, “Okay, what happened is not good, but we’re gonna move forward now.” And he said to me, “You can never talk about the past. I don’t want you to bring it up. When you do, you’re just damaging your future, if you bring up the past to your husband.” He actually told my husband, if I wouldn’t stop talking about it, that he could just get up and leave and like …
https://youtu.be/j8CvkDrWyRc
Anne: What?
Stacey: … leave me. This is a counselor.
Anne: He doesn’t know that stonewalling is apparently emotional and psychological abuse, I guess, this guy.
Stacey: It is horrible, horrible. And my husband, of course, loved this counselor. And so when I would talk about the past, he’s like, “No, you’re burning down the cornfield.” This is what he said. He said, “You have a cornfield, and every time you talk about the past, you burn it down, and then you guys have to start over.” So it was really on me. And it wasn’t on my husband at all. It was like, okay, you made a mistake. Let’s move forward. You’re forgiven.
The Spiritual Pressure Women Feel When Their Husband Is Lying
Stacey: He was from the same faith background we were from, and also our religious leader at church had referred this counselor. So my husband was stuck on the religious aspect of this religious leader referred him. So he must be who we need to go to. And I kept saying like, this is not helpful. This is damaging.
Anne: Let’s talk about the spiritual abuse. So here you are being lied to by your husband and abused psychologically and emotionally. With your counselor, who is a religious counselor, with your bishop, who is your religious leader.
So you’re being abused by these men who are trying to tell you what your experience is and trying to coerce you into thinking that you’re not being abused. Did you get it from family? Like, were you facing spiritual abuse on all sides?
Stacey: Not necessarily from family, but I have to say that not one family member has ever told me that maybe I should leave my husband. Everyone has brought into the situation, forgive, what would Jesus do. It’s all, repent, read your scriptures, pray, God will get you through this.
Anne: What would Jesus do? I’m always thinking. He says, depart from the wicked, is what he says. He says, separate yourselves from wickedness. So, what would Jesus do? He would say, get thee hence.
Stacey: Yeah.
Anne: So, I need to get myself hence from this.
Finding Validation and The Truth
Anne: When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is this like a revelation?
Stacey: I can’t even tell you, just listening to your podcast and feeling like I’m not crazy. Second of all, I’m not alone. There are other people who have been through this, because it’s such a lonely place to be. There aren’t many people you can talk to. I feel like it’s so hard, even though it is my story. It’s not only my story. So I can’t talk about the truth about him to everyone, because then I tarnish my husband or make him look bad. Like, nobody knows what’s going on.
Because you can’t talk about it. So it’s such a lonely place. When my husband is currently lying to me. And then for me, all these therapists will make me feel even worse. So just to have someone I could connect with just to listen to podcasts and feel like I’m not alone. And wow, I’m not crazy. That was so, so big.
Anne: I’m so happy you found us. We always want women to find us, because when you’re in that fog of abuse and being abused from all sides. It is so hard to figure out what’s going on. And even if you want to tell people. I’m not saying you should. But let’s just say you got it in your mind. That you were going to get up in your meeting and from the pulpit, say, everyone, I’m being psychologically abused. They wouldn’t believe you.
So you can start telling people, but then people just look at you like you’re crazy. So it’s so nice to be part of a community where you’re immediately believed.
The Power Of Community When Your Husband is Lying
Anne: And not just believed, you don’t even have to explain it. We just get it, it’s so freeing. And then I think the more we validate each other and empower each other, the stronger we get over time.
Then it makes it so much easier to see he’s lying all the time. And helps us make decisions about what to do to get to safety.
Stacey: Absolutely.
Anne: The purpose of this podcast is not to proselyte. We’re all here sharing from our own experience. So the point of me talking to her is sharing my own experience and views. And we respect that everyone has different views around here. As you’ve heard on the podcast, women come from all religions, different paradigms, or no religion. Everyone is welcome here.
So where are you now in your situation? Do you feel like you’ve established some peace? Or do you feel like you’re still being cycled through the abuse?
Stacey: It’s still a cycle. I have established more peace. And definitely recognized my relationship for what it is. I can recognize patterns and behaviors. That before I wouldn’t have recognized what they were. But it’s really hard. It’s so hard. I’ve never been able to make a concrete decision to stay or go. Sometimes I almost wish I could find him in another affair, so that I could have that reason of, okay, I can leave.
But right now it’s like this in between, where I feel like exactly what you’re saying earlier. He’s aware of what he needs to do, but he hasn’t fully made that commitment. He still blames me. It’s so hard. I have kids, and now it’s been seven years.
Anne: Seven years since the affair?
Stacey: Yeah.
Anne: Okay.
How Her Husband’s Lies Impacted Their Children
Stacey: And sometimes I think back, wow, what if I would have been strong enough to just leave then? Well, how different would my kids’ lives be? I’ve been so intent on giving them married parents and a family. And then I think back and I’m like, “Wow, maybe I’ve made a big mistake staying together.” He did a good job of lying to me to keep me invested.
And modeling this kind of behavior to my kids of what’s okay in a relationship, that’s really hard. So I’m in this limbo where I just never am fully committed to stay or go.
Anne: It’s really hard. Many women have prayed to know, do I stay or go? And then many women avoid praying about it because they don’t want an answer. Because either answer is terrible. Number one, if it’s stay, then you have to stay in an abusive place. Number two, is that God telling you to stay? Because I’ve had so many women say, I prayed about it, and God wants me to stay. And I’m thinking, I’m not here to doubt your spiritual impressions.
But simultaneously, the abuse messes with women’s minds so much that sometimes they can’t even ferret out what they’re feeling. And what they’re feeling is it feels bad to divorce. So they’re feeling like, I know when I think about divorce, it feels wrong. That must not be right. So I guess God’s telling me to stay married? And with that, I want to say, no, no, no.
If the answer you’re getting is this terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. That does not mean God is telling you not to divorce. And the reason why is because divorce will feel bad no matter what.
The Impact Of His Lies On Decision Making
Anne: I would encourage women to consider that if you get a terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. Consider that it is not God telling you not to do it. After you say, okay, no matter what, it’s going to feel awful. Then how do you sort out what God wants you to do? And I have no idea.
Stacey: I don’t either.
Anne: I just don’t want the abuse to make the decision. Because the abuse is, you’re not good enough, you can’t do it, all these things in your head. That have been in your head forever, that you don’t even realize aren’t even you. They’re just shadows of the abuse from over time. So it’s very, very hard to sort out what to do when it’s hard to tell what is lies and what is the truth. But I do think God will lead, direct and guide us as we make our way toward safety.
And if we say, hey, this is what I want. I want a peaceful, happy life. Please guide me and direct me toward that. What do you want me to do? What’s my next step? I think he’ll guide us wherever he wants us to go. But just as a wholesale overview of that bad feeling. You’ll feel that regardless, even if divorce is the best thing for you.
So all of you listeners now that are like, well, I was thinking about divorce, now that you said that. As a woman of faith, I believe God has a path and way to safety for you. I just don’t know what that looks like.
The Workshop Will Give you Clarity
Anne: And that’s why I put together The Clarity After Betrayal workshop. And this is where we get to take a sigh of relief, that there are safety strategies that work well. And if you know what they are before making these decisions, they can help you get to safety one safe step at a time, and give you tools to see if your husband is lying. My workshop gives women answers.
These strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced, to give you enough space to observe what’s going on. I’ve seen so many miracles in so many women’s lives and in my own life. He’s there for us, but it’s hard and scary.
Stacey: Yeah, I like the idea of just kind of praying for the next step, just one step at a time.
Anne: Have you reconciled with your sister-in-law, your brother’s ex-wife?
Stacey: No, they ended up getting divorced, and I haven’t talked to her in years. I think about it and I’m kind of scared. Just how the relationship was left, but I think I should just go and tell her I’m sorry for the things I assumed and now have such a different view.
My brother lied about her so much, and he never took responsibility for his actions.
When He LIes About Whose Fault it is
The whole reason he used online explicit material was her fault. It was because she didn’t want to have it with him, or she wasn’t interested in it as much as he was. And so he had no other option. It was just what he had to do. And I’ve never heard him say otherwise.
Anne: Yeah, I’m so entitled to it that I have to have it. This is my wife’s job.
Stacey: Right, and if she won’t do it, it’s entirely her fault. They’ve been divorced ten years now , and nothing’s changed.
Anne: Did he get remarried?
Stacey: No, neither of them did.
Anne: Your brother’s an abuser.
Stacey: Yeah, I’ve got them all around me. Now that I can see it for what it is. A lot of the men in my life are, absolutely.
Anne: Now that you see that, have you noticed any men that are healthy?
Stacey: Sometimes I think, do they even exist? Like, are there mentally stable men out there? I’m trying to think.
Anne: That question is also scary. And the reason why that’s scary is that you’re going to need help. And if you don’t have healthy people in your life and can see it for what it is, it’s scary to start doing that on your own.
Stacey: Absolutely.
Anne: Many women, once they figure out what abuse is, they’re think, “I don’t know a man who’s not abusive”. I’m happy to say that I have several men in my life that are not abusive but supportive. And the more I learn about abuse, the more I’ve been able to recognize healthy men.
The Reality of a Husband’s Lies
Anne: Of course, I’m not married to them. So I don’t know for sure. But in terms of my interaction, and then also what their wives say about them. I think there are healthy men out there, is what I’m trying to say. I also think they’re not common. In the state where you and I live, one out of every three women has experienced physical abuse. So then emotional and psychological abuse, even more. The statistics are that eight out of every ten men in our state use it.
Stacey: Wow.
Anne: So then you’re looking at 8 out of every 10 men as an abuser essentially. Is willing to manipulate, willing to lie, willing to throw somebody under the bus to save their own reputation.
Stacey: Scary statistics.
Anne: If you could go back and talk to your younger self now that you know what you know from listening to the podcast and being a member of our community, what would you tell her?
Stacey: I wish she could see her worth and know that she’s a worthy person, without someone else needing to tell her that she is. I wish I could tell her to recognize red flags, like lies and see them for what they are. There are so many red flags looking back. Even if I saw them, I think deep down it’s like I’ve never felt like I deserved better. That’s sad.
When Your Husband Is Lying: The Value of Women In Faith
Anne: In our faith tradition, we have this theme, we stand up in the young women’s organization and recite. It says, “I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I strive to become like him. I seek to act upon personal revelation and minister to others in his holy name,I will stand as a witness of God at all times.
I will stand as a witness of God at all times, in all things, and in all places.” This is more focused now on service than when we were growing up. Ours was like, I am valuable, yeah. This one actually doesn’t sound like that anymore. So we grew up with this, like I am a valuable daughter of God. Why do you think that didn’t sink in for us?
Stacey: Why? I think sometimes if you just recite something over and over, you don’t really spend the time to think about what you’re saying.
Anne: I also think it’s how we were treated.
Stacey: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Anne: So if they say you’re so valuable, but then you’re not actually treated as you’re valuable, like they’re not listening to your opinion. They’re not believing you. They’ll pay for your brother to go to college, but they won’t pay for you to go to college. Your brother can choose a career of any of these 5,000 careers, and you need to pick a teacher. Because then you would have the summers off for your kids, and you need to cook, sew, clean and do laundry.
Gender Roles, Expectations, and Your Sense of Self
Anne: And your duties are relegated to childcare, cleaning, cooking, and he, what does he want to do? He gets to be an engineer, an astronaut, like what are his dreams and hopes? And yours should be laundry, so I don’t know what, you know, like nobody ever says like, what do you want to do with your life?
Stacey: No.
Anne: Like what are you interested in? Who are you as a person? What talents has God given you apart from he’s given you the ability to be a mother, right? So it’s like were you actually treated like you were valuable, and so in our hearts and minds we’re thinking okay, we’re valued. But we’re only valued if we look like this, or if we do this thing, and if we do it well. And you know what, I’m not super great at cooking brownies.
So maybe I’m not as valuable as the congregation brownie baker. I just wonder if that’s part of it. The way that we internalize the culture around us. Oh, this is how you get valued as a woman. If you want it, you’ve got to be cute, you’ve got to be in shape, and you have to play the harp.
Stacey: It’s so true, that’s interesting you bring that up, because a week ago at church we had a lesson about things of value, and how we treat things differently on how much we value them. And we came home from church, and I said to my husband, I don’t feel valued. As a wife, as a human. For me, it was such a big epiphany. To just think, I’ve spent these last 20 years with someone who doesn’t value me and constantly lies to me.
How Bigger Societal Patterns Shape Men To Justify Lying To Their Wives
Anne: They don’t cherish us.
Stacey: Right, yeah, how differently would my life turn out if I was with someone that valued me, truly?
Anne: That’s why we have to learn to value ourselves, because nobody’s doing it for us.
Stacey: Right, exactly.
Anne: When we do, and we’re like, no, I’m gonna do this thing. Everybody around us is like, “What? No, no, no. You’re not valuing your husband.” I think the heart of this is also just, flat out misogyny. I think that’s the problem with a lot of the addiction recovery situation, is that they’re not acknowledging this super solid bedrock foundation of misogyny.
Stacey: Absolutely.
Anne: That is so firm, so strong, and so deep that it’s going through the clergy, the therapists, and the community, and it’s making it very difficult for women to value themselves. And then when you start doing it, then you’re the crazy apostate lady. I enjoy that role though. Now in my congregation, I am like the witch lady almost, you know what I mean? Like, don’t let your kids get too close to her.
Stacey: How have you been able to keep your faith in your spirituality? That is something I’ve struggled with so much through this. Because I feel like my religion has spiritually manipulated me into feeling like I’m not as much value. I need to forgive, move on. And it’s real. I’ve struggled with my spirituality through this. Is there things that have helped you?
Seeking God’s Help When Your Confused
Anne: In our particular faith, we study from the Bible and also from the Book of Mormon. And I love studying from both of these books about my Savior. And having a tangible book that I can study from and consider what God is telling me has helped me. Sometimes I think like, what am I doing this for? All these men don’t get it. But as I study, I feel God’s love for me.
And the other thing that’s interesting is that both of those books are I think misogynistic at their core due to the historical situation, right? Women aren’t writing them. They’re not interpreting them from the perspective of women. And so that’s another thing that I do. Actually, in my own journal, I pray and ask Heavenly Father what He wants to tell me, and then I write down the impressions I receive. And I consider that my own personal scriptures.
So even though it’s still on that solid seemingly immovable bedrock of misogyny. I do think the Lord’s words come through. The other thing I love about the scriptures is that God does not like wickedness. Over and over, both the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon stories over and over of deliverance.
So the gospel is a gospel of deliverance. The ultimate deliverance would be salvation, returning to live with God. But I also believe He has a deliverance for us here in this life, that he wants us to be delivered from all of the lies and evil.
The Call For Women To Seek Deliverance
Anne: You know, the Israelites were enslaved by evil, by Pharaoh. And they prayed, and they watched, and they hoped for the time they could be delivered. And then when Moses made that possible, they started moving, they started making their way. At that point, they could have just sat there and been like, oh, it’s too hard to get all of our stuff together.
It’s too hard to walk out. Pharaoh’s going to follow us anyway. But they didn’t. They got up, they packed up all their stuff. They started making their way, and Pharaoh followed them. And then the Red Sea parted and they walked through. I mean, can you imagine the faith it took to walk through these two pillars of water? Thinking it could fall on you at any second. I don’t know if I would have been like this, this seems like a bad idea.
You know walking through here, but they did it, and I think God is calling women to do that now. I feel like God is calling women to separate themselves from evil. To have faith, pray for deliverance, hope for deliverance, and start making our way out. And when we see that moment, whenever that is, to pack up our stuff metaphorically speaking. Make our way, and then when he parts that Red Sea, we have to walk through that.
And for me, that was when my ex got arrested. For some women, they have some kind of epiphany about the extent of the lies. I’m not saying all this leads to divorce. I’m not pro divorce, but I am pro deliverance from evil and I am pro deliverance from abuse.
God Delivers Us From Evil
Anne: God seems to call us all to consider deliverance. To separate ourselves from evil. We also know in the last days that there’ll be a big separation. A separation of good and evil, the wheat and the tares. I think that’s happening now. And the easiest place to do that is in our own homes to ensure that our home is a place of peace. And that’s confusing, because at church, when they talk about, separate yourself from evil.
They never talk about it in terms of your own home. They’re always talking about it as like the evil in the world. So like these evil people out there. And I’m thinking, I’m not worried about the “evil” people out in the world. I’m already separated from them. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. You know, I’m not like hanging out with them.
The people in my circle are healthy, happy, honest people. So we’re trying to separate ourselves from evil. We need to look in our own six foot radius.
Stacey: Yeah, that’s big.
Anne: The Lord has a plan for us. I don’t know what it is exactly. I’m just going to do my part. So I just think, I don’t know the answer to so many of these things. Of course, I don’t. Why would I? But I think that’s what’s helped me. I. keep my faith, because I just can’t imagine God doesn’t have a plan for our deliverance. If He’s had a plan for oppressed people’s delivery since the beginning of time.
Stacey: Yeah, that’s something to think about. I like that a lot. It’s good, good stuff.
Reconciling Your Faith With the Reality of His Lies
Anne: I have many friends who have left their faith, and I don’t blame them. There’s no judgment for me, because I think I don’t know why I still believe and you don’t. But like we’re still sisters. Did your sister-in-law leave the church?
Stacey: Yes, she did, yeah.
Anne: So I think that would be another thing as you attempt to reconcile with her is to have a soft place in your heart for that. And be like, it makes sense that you would do that after all the abuse you suffered from my brother, from my family, from other church members, like, I totally get it. I can see why you would do that. Because that’s going to be a further bridge to reconciliation.
Rather than, like, well, I’m staying in the church because I’m more righteous and have more faith than you. After all the misogyny I’ve experienced and all the terrible things, but somehow I’m a better person than you because I can put up with it or something. Like the women who have said, hey, I am done. I’m not going to listen, you shouldn’t get divorced, you’re a bad person, and stuff like that.
Like, good for you for standing up for yourself. Good for you for saying, I don’t have to take this anymore. I don’t have to take this abuse. I’m not doing this anymore with a husband who is so full of lies. So in terms of like how I feel about it, I think every woman can make her own way to safety in whatever way that looks like for her. And sometimes, frankly, I’m confused about why I still believe, like I do.
When Your Husband Is Lying & Blaming the Messenger
Anne: I’ve suffered tons of oppression from men for my views, especially now that the podcast is so big and that I seem very threatening to many therapists or other people. And my views seem threatening. Some people see me as some sort of like ultra crazy podcaster that their wife started listening to. And after she started listening to this whack-a-doodle podcaster, our family was ruined.
Stacey: Well, what’s interesting about that is yes, of course, the husbands don’t like us finding you. Because we find the truth. We understand the abuse for what it is. And when we confront them and say, ah, I listened to this podcast and she said this. So yeah, my husband is not a fan of the podcast because it totally exposes him for what he is, a lying selfish person, and he doesn’t like that one bit.
Anne: I become this crazy like an extremist who’s podcasting from my basement, who, you know, believes in aliens. I’m not, I don’t believe in aliens, but I mean people have that view of it, right?
No, actually like this is pretty mainstream, like basic abuse stuff. If you talk to any abuse expert, they’ll be like, yeah, of course. This is not extreme. It’s not out there. There’s nothing about it that is counterculture. I mean, our faith tradition says we do not tolerate abuse. It’s just so, so threatening to an abuser, for a victim to find out the truth about what’s going on.
The Power of Truth, Community, and Finally Seeing Clearly
Stacey: Yeah, it blows his cover. They can’t get away with what they used to get away with. It’s confusing to them, because behavior that’s worked in the past doesn’t work anymore. When we can recognize his lies and see what’s being done and how we’re being manipulated, it has changed my relationship. It has since I’ve started listening to the podcast, and being able to recognize it, and feeling more self worth.
Because of all the gaslighting I have felt like I’m the crazy one, that there’s no validity to my thoughts and emotions. Being able to recognize that my thoughts, emotions, and feelings are valid. It gives me a lot more strength to stand up and recognize that, yeah, I have worth and my thoughts, they’re not crazy. They’re actually less crazy. They’re the truth. That’s what they are. They’re true.
Anne: Well, and from a spiritual perspective, that is God telling you that you are of worth, and listen to that part, listen to how much he loves you and cares about you. And you don’t have to put up with literal chaos and pain coming from someone who enjoys wickedness. We were talking about submission before, like on a previous episode. And essentially, if you listen to your abuser and submit yourself to him.
Okay, I’ll be more available or, okay, I’ll lose weight or, okay, I won’t ask you questions. And I’ll, I don’t know, whatever they want, that’s unrighteous. You’re submitting yourself to evil, which God never asked us to do, ever.
After Betrayal, Lean on The Strength of Others
Stacey: Yeah, right.
Anne: The cool thing is the more of us there are, the stronger we become, and the less weird it is. And so we just need to keep walking forward. And when one of us gets to safety, it helps all of us. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I appreciate your time.
Is My Husband Toxic? – When You Discover His Double Life
Jan 14, 2025
There’s another word for toxic – abusive. If you’re asking, “Is my husband toxic?” What you’re really asking is, is he emotionally or psychologically abusive. Here’s three things you need to know.
What Does “Toxic” Mean?
A toxic person uses manipulation, control, lies, and chaos to get what they want. Often, toxic men use emotional or psychological abuse tactics, which can be harder to detect than physical abuse, but is just as damaging.
See if he’s using any one of these 19 different types of emotional abuse. If he is, he’s toxic. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.
Here are some red flags of toxic emotional or psychological abuse to watch out for in your marriage:
1. Manipulation
Does your husband often twist situations to make you feel like you’re the problem, even when he’s clearly at fault?
2. Control
Does he lie to control your perception of him, rather than meet you on equal grounds by telling the truth?
3. Objectification
Does he objectify women or exploit women?
Questions to Determine If Your Husband Is Toxic
If you’re unsure whether your husband’s behavior is toxic (abusive), ask yourself these questions:
Does he belittle my emotions, making me feel like I’m “too sensitive” or imagining things?
Does he undermine me by saying my friends or family don’t know what they’re talking about when they’re doing something to empower me?
When I express concerns, does he block conversation by storming off or shutting me down? Or start attacking me with the exact same “concerns” he’s never brought up before?
Does he dismiss or “forget” promises?
Has he ever lied to me about things he’s planning or what’s going to happen that he has no intention of ever actually planning or doing.
Does he frequently criticize, judge, or blame me instead of taking responsibility for his actions?
Do his words or actions make me feel small, unsafe, or like I’m constantly walking on eggshells?
If you answered “yes” to any of these, take our free test for emotional abuse that will help you know for sure.
What Your Husband’s Toxic Behavior Does to You
Living with emotional or psychological abuse can lead to chronic stress, anxiety, depression, and feelings of worthlessness.
It can make you question your reality, leading to something called “gaslighting,” where you’re manipulated into doubting your own experiences or memories. Over time, these effects will erode your mental health and self-esteem.
Yep, Your Husband Is Toxic. What Can I Do?
Acknowledge the Problem
The first step is recognizing that your husband’s behavior is abusive or toxic. It’s not “just how he is,” nor is it “your fault.” To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.
Seek The Right Support
Talk to trusted friends or family members about what you’re experiencing. You might also consider attending Group Sessions, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. These sessions provide a safe environment to share your experience with women who understand.
Learn Strategies To Protect Yourself
If your husband is toxic, going to couples therapy or talking to a priest might make things worse for you. Toxic men often use tricks to blame you for the problems. They might even say your relationship or marriage is toxic, trying to make it seem like it’s partly your fault.
His mean behavior isn’t your fault, even if it hurts you. Before talking to a counselor or Pastor, learn what he’ll do next by enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. That way you’ll be one step ahead.
Transcript: Is My Husband Toxic? – When You Discover His Double Life
Anne: Jessica is on today’s episode. She holds a bachelor’s degree in media studies and has an in-depth understanding of how the media impacts our lives and shapes our attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. Jessica is a feminist and activist.
She is also on the board of Culture Reframed, a nonprofit organization founded by Dr. Gail Dines, whose mission is to build resilience and resistance to hypersexualized media.
Welcome, Jessica.
Jessica: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.
Anne: Jessica, a lot of women come on my podcast. In fact, it’s the #1 podcast for betrayal trauma. These women share their stories.And when I told my friends and family, they were like, “Calm down. It’s not that big of a deal. Why are you freaking out? He’s such a good guy.” Even feminists say it’s not a big deal when he’s toxic in this way.
Is He Toxic If He Lies?
Anne: So as an activist, let’s talk about why feminists should be opposed to this type of toxic behavior.
Jessica: There’s a lot of confusion and divisiveness around this topic, and a lot of misguided intention and misinformation.
I just want to start by reading a quote from Rachel Moran, a trafficking survivor. She was a prostituted woman in her youth. And she is now exited and is an author and activist. She has a quote that says, “There is not now, never has been, and never will be, a feminist case for men to commercialize the bodies of women.”
There are two types of feminism, the people who think it’s empowering. And the people like me who think there’s no benefit to the commercialization or commodification of women’s bodies.
And the difference in language is that someone like me is a second wave feminist, another term for it is radical feminist. Radical simply means, the Latin root of the word radical is to get to the root of something. So radical feminists look at the overall system of oppression. Which means it’s patriarchy, and how patriarchy oppresses women and children.
Radical feminists try to look at the root. The other type of feminists who maybe would argue that this type of toxic behavior is empowering are typically referred to as liberal feminists. Third wave feminists, choice feminists, or even sex positive, which I shudder at. I’ll explain why it’s not positive later, but there’s major disagreement among people in these movements.
Focus On Liberation Of All Women
Jessica: So the third wave of people who think it’s empowering believe that if a woman makes the choice. No matter what the choice is, it’s empowering. Based on the fact that she’s getting to make the choice.
So, they’re looking at individual empowerment for the actual individual. Whereas a second wave of feminism, like myself and Gail Dines. And so many other people in this movement are looking at what’s good for women as a class.
So if I decide to be a stripper or go into the trade. In the big picture, it’s not only bad for me as a woman, it’s also bad for my sisters. It’s not good for women as a class, because it puts women at risk. and sends a message to society that women can be bought, sold, and rented by men.
So our focus is on the liberation of all women. My goal is to help free all women from oppression under patriarchy. Not just go make my personal decision. For example, I wear makeup, but I don’t call wearing makeup feminist. So this word feminism has really gotten conflated with a lot of other things. It’s changed meaning, and we see that happening with a lot of things over time.
Toxic Sexism Hurts Women
Jessica: It is co-opted, and people redefine it and turn it into something else. The original definition of feminism speaks to women as a class, not the individual. The word freaks out people, radical because it sounds so extreme.
But I like to remind people that the second wave movement was the women’s liberation movement in the 60s and 70s. The women of that movement were second wave. They were very critical about exploitation. Because they understood that when you have an oppressor class. Which is men in a male supremacy or a patriarchy buying and renting the bodies of the oppressed class. You can never have equality. It just doesn’t work.
So that’s where we’re coming from with this. I just want to add another word for radical feminist or second wave feminist is abolitionist feminist. In other words, I don’t think the exploitation industry, and I like to call it the exploitation industrial complex, because that’s what it is. It’s a multi billion dollar industry.
It’s a big, big industry, and the exploitation industrial complex is just this large thing that we need to look at how it’s affecting women all over. So in other words, if I have a sister who’s getting prostituted or women who are being looked at as objects. How does that translate to me in the real world, in society and culture?
How am I going to get looked at? Will I be impacted? Whether I’m in that industry or not? Yeah.
And what it means to be a woman is that we don’t have to accept coercion. We don’t have to accept any form of toxic objectification or anything that we feel uncomfortable about in our relationship. Anytime we stand up for our own rights, we stand up for everyone.
If we could hold hands around the world and stop exploitation, it would stop. Because there wouldn’t be anywhere else for it to go.
https://youtu.be/fvhCIwaXUz4
Jessica: Right, I think women play a big role in this, like you’re talking about. But I believe that until we address the demand side of trafficking. Women will not be liberated, because we know by the data and experts in this field who study exploitation. That it’s the most, generally speaking, destitute, impoverished, traumatized, vulnerable people on the planet are the ones who end up in prostitution, being trafficked, into inappropriate media.
You know, when people argue for choice, like, oh, that’s her choice. We have to step back and define what choice is. Is it her choice to prostitute herself, because she won’t feed her kids? This is a lie that this toxic industry perpetuates. Are those the choices we’re looking at? Are we talking about sheer survival?
And why would we argue for that choice? Shouldn’t we give women more opportunities and look at what are the driving forces and what is bringing them there? And why are they saying, “We could just look at what brings people to the exploitation industry and what keeps people from getting out.”
The Lie Behind The Harsh Realities Of The Oppresive Trafficking
Jessica: It’s horrifying, like if people got educated about this topic and saw what brought women to this. Aside from being trafficked, right, and being coerced and drugged, and all that. What brings them there? And then why they can’t get out. The trauma, the feeling of they have no place to go. And the brokenness when you escape this abusive trade. The needs that you have to get back on your feet emotionally, physically, spiritually, all of it, that’s a lot of heavy lifting. It is a lie.
And there are not many services out there. So, many women don’t make it out of the trade alive. They take their own lives, they die of drug addiction or overdose, they are killed, they die of complications from injury, all kinds of health and physical risks. Abolitionist feminists like myself, we don’t believe that this industry can be regulated. The same way an abolitionist in the 1800s in this country would never say, we want to keep slavery, but we want to regulate it.
They wanted it gone. Because they knew that this was something built upon oppression. It was built upon racism. It was built upon patriarchy, and so from a second wave feminist point of view. Like myself and Gail and you, we see it the same way. You cannot regulate an industry built on exploitation, inequality and patriarchy. It is a lie that you can make this type of toxic industry safe for the women used in its making.
We see it as dehumanizing and objectifying other human beings. And it’s a human rights issue.
Public Health Crisis: Toxic Online Material
We can talk to regulators, anything you would consider under the public health umbrella. Big Tobacco was a good example and model that we like to reference a lot, because there was a time, not too long ago, where there was a huge divide in the medical field about whether cigarettes were bad for you.
And whether they caused lung cancer, and some doctors actually prescribed cigarettes to clients to help ease anxiety and relax them and whatnot. We still have clinicians in the mental health counseling and coaching fields today, who prescribe this type of toxic material for couples. And it’s harmful.
The Lie Of The Sex Positive Movement
Jessica: We still aren’t there yet in terms of education. And so I think the public health approach is the best approach everybody can get on board with. Everybody can get on board with this, because it’s about looking at the facts. It’s about the data, science, and education. So that people can make informed decisions, not just take this away, and the person seeks it underground or whatever.
This is now an informed decision about your health and your relationships, which equates to your health because we know how important relationships are to health.
Anne: Exactly. So with that, let’s actually talk about the this movement. We had a guest on one of our episodes talking about being positive, which is so cool right now. And to be a progressive, like educated person. If you said I’m not then everyone would give you a weird look. Can you talk about how this toxic material is NOT positive, and why?
Jessica: Yeah, there are so many reasons it’s not. I’ll start with first and foremost, it ruins people’s intimate lives.
So that’s ironic, that the more a man uses this toxic material the less intimacy they have with a real life. You’ve heard of inappropriate media induced erectile dysfunction. This is a new phenomenon we’re seeing since the explosion of. Young men report erectile dysfunction that can’t be explained by any other variable.
The Lie That Toxic Online Material Isn’t Harmful
Jessica: They’re otherwise healthy men who don’t have a physical reason for having erectile dysfunction. So it’s keeping people from actually connecting. So there’s that, number one. Number two, it’s a product that’s scripted, not creative, very formulaic and bottom line driven.
It’s about hooking the consumer and taking away their agency. If you want to talk about choice, agency, and empowerment, it’s the absolute opposite. They’re hijacking our own ability to have authentic intimacy. So the template, instead of authoring my own intimacy, my own sexuality. Which is the most private, personal thing in my life. Now it’s co-opted by this multi-billion dollar industry, designed to change my template.
It takes people’s power away, and you hear this from many recovering people. That once they stop using and stop using for awhile, they get their sense of agency back. And they start to have their relationship back, and they can co-create an intimate relationship with their partner.
I came up with this quote because it’s one of the big arguments in the third wave movement. It’s none of your business what people are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms. And I like to respond by saying, “If it’s none of anybody’s business, what people are doing in their own bedrooms. Why have we made it the business of the this toxic industry to the tune of multi-billions of dollars?”
The Lie Of The Sex Positive Movement
Jessica: Yes. So they have gone from saying, “It’s nobody’s business, what I do”, to “I’ve handed it over to a big business.” And now what happens in the bedroom is directly or indirectly run by this multi-billion dollar industry. That, frankly, has nobody’s best interest in mind.
Not only is it addictive, but we know it’s horrifically, and this speaks to the feminist piece and the human rights piece. It’s horrifically misogynist, violent and brutal towards women. There’s tons of data on this. I don’t know how anybody could defend the content online today with any kind of positive or feminist lens. Or even defend it as a humanist. Somebody who believes in human decency.
It’s a type of hate speech in my opinion. Why is this protected when they’re showing so much hate? Anne, think about this. If you were to show any other group of people of an oppressor class, like white people. And you had a multi-billion dollar media industry that shows white people abusing a subjugated group of people. Let’s say an Asian group or Black group or another oppressed or subjugated group of people. There would be public outcries.
This would not be okay. But because it’s women, and because you’re sexualizing the violence and eroticizing the aggression, now it’s okay. But if you take it, all you see is violence, torture, and brutality. And why are we okay with that?
It’s Violent Hate Speech
Jessica: Especially because we live in a worldwide global culture, we have a pandemic of abuse and violence against women. It’s a lie that this toxic material is just fantasy, it’s not. We know the numbers with the Me Too movement, one in three. Every day, I read another article or more statistics about how violence against women is going up. Rape and campus rape is a pandemic.
People can’t even keep up with it. These fantasies that men masturbating to are real life nightmares for real women. And something is really, really wrong with that. To have this group of people, women, suffering at the hands of men with violence. And then make movies about it for entertainment and men to masturbate to.
The problem with the third wave liberal positive movement is they are not connecting the dots. It’s a lie that you can have it both ways. You cannot say we believe women should be free of violence, exploitation, and objectification when you support an industry based on all those things.
Anne: I think they are just purposefully ignoring it. Because every time you try to address it with someone in that camp, they just talk in circles. There’s no resolution, and they don’t make any sense. You can say this isn’t logical, but they won’t be pinned down because they don’t want to give up this toxic material. They want to say these abusers can be a good person while engaging in this stuff.
If Your Husband is Toxic, He Uses People
Jessica: No, that’s just it. There’s no real argument. There’s no data. It’s a thinly veiled debate. I don’t get far in those, because I’ll start asking real questions and I don’t get answers. I just get, “It’s my choice. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.” You know, all the things that you could do to dismiss a public health crisis.
Like, if you don’t like cigarettes, don’t smoke them. Then you start zooming out and going, wait, now it’s affecting everybody. It’s affecting children, our healthcare system, and our taxes. I mean, the list goes on and on. Yeah, well, and not to mention, that cigarette in this scenario is a person.
Correct, and that is a beautiful segue to the differentiation between addiction and every other kind of addiction. Is that the human being, in many cases women, the substance being abused. And there is a big difference when you use a person as a substance, versus a drink, a drug, or a cigarette.
So this is another reason why it’s even more serious and needs to be looked at as a human rights issue. I’ll also copy down another one of my favorite quotes. It’s by Jean Kilbourne. She did a series called Killing Us Softly, and it was about how women are portrayed in advertising. It’s brilliant, if you can ever get your hands on it.
Objectification Of Women Is Toxic
Jessica: Even if you say, “It’s my choice to strip, or it’s my choice to do this, or it’s okay for women to step out and objectify.” What we have to remember is that objectification is dangerous, and there are many statistics on this.
There’s a great organization out of Australia called Collective Shout that researches how objectification hurts. Not only the person being objectified, but also the person doing the objectifying. And it leads to violence and harm. It changes the way we interact, the way we connect, and the way we view others and ourselves.
It takes away our empathy, because if the person is now an object, you are really distanced from that person now. And you lose empathy.
Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are the largest organization in the world for wives of toxic husbands. So many organizations are fighting exploitation or trafficking. We view ourselves as the in-home victims of these types of abusers.
Define Your Boundaries To Protect Yourself From His Toxic Behavior
Anne: And they should set that as a human rights boundary and also as a self respect boundary, right? Like, I will not allow myself to be abused like this in my own home. I want to talk about coercion for a bit. So it is our contention here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery that if a man tries to talk a woman into accepting his toxic behavior. When she doesn’t want it, and he hides it from her, that it is a form of coercion.
And he has not received her consent because he’s not giving her the full information. And while he’s lying to her about his toxic behavior, he’s withholding her ability to give consent.
Jessica: I 100 percent agree with both of those. It’s common. The user tries to get around it by manipulation. The part about trying to talk your partner into accepting something that doesn’t feel good to them. And is coming between you is definitely coercion and abusive. Because it could lead you to feel like, if I don’t do this, he’s not happy. And he will leave me. My authentic self is not good enough.
And also what’s happening is there’s a control issue. He’s controlling the narrative in the relationship. So, there’s no co-creative relationship. Between two people who come together and be playful and creative, and decide what feels good to both of them.
The Impact of Toxic Secrecy
Jessica: What’s mutually pleasurable. And so this is somebody who’s saying, I want this for me, even though you’ve already stated you’re not comfortable with this. So trying to talk somebody into what their limitations and boundaries are is a type of abuse. And coercion, which those go hand in hand, and as far as hiding it goes. I mean, you guys know this more than anybody, because you deal with betrayal trauma, which has to do with secrecy.
And lying and dishonesty will break a person and ruin relationships. Because if my husband lied to me about stopping off from work and getting a piece of cake because he’s on a diet. And he just fell off the wagon and got a piece of cake, and he didn’t tell me about it.
Or he lied to me, yeah, lying’s not good. It makes you question people, it erodes trust, it’s not a good thing. He lied about something against my values, it’s something that I’ve set a boundary on. Something that has to do with masturbating to images of other women. He lied about seeking stimulus outside of our monogamous relationship. Assuming we’ve agreed on a monogamous committed relationship. Then, that is a different kind of betrayal.
Anne: Well, it’s also abusive. This lack of consent, in saying, I know you want a monogamous relationship with no infidelity, so he lied to you. That is coercive in and of itself, and manipulative.
If He Lied About ANYTHING, It’s Toxic To You
Anne: If he lied, you’re not giving consent. The information she needs to make the right decision and give her consent.
Jessica: 100 percent agree that if he lied, that takes away her consent. And she is engaging in a relationship with somebody who she does not have all the information
Anne: That she wants. She said flat out, “I don’t want this.” And so he lied and hides it from her. I think this is extremely serious, and people are not taking it seriously.
And it is an abuse. People dismiss it or say, Oh, well, you know, he doesn’t need to tell her. And I’m thinking, no. You don’t realize this represents abuse. And it represents abuse in every case where he’s controlling the narrative. Like you said, and not willing to give her all the information she needs to give her consent. It’s a serious, serious abuse issue.
Jessica: It is an abuse issue. And I a hundred percent agree. It is. It’s taking away that person’s right to consent, because they don’t have all the information to give informed, enthusiastic consent to their partner. And if women knew their partner was masturbating to even more toxic material, like child abuse material, it’s so traumatizing.
If I Asked And He Lied, Is That Abuse?
Jessica: If we knew that our partner’s template was that, that’s what turned them on. And that’s what they were masturbating to. We should have every right to know that, so that we could say I’m not compatible with that person. I don’t want to have intimacy with somebody who is turned on by that for many reasons.
One is not compatible because this is now crossing over into core values. I don’t believe in violence against women, so I don’t want to be with somebody who’s masturbating to it. We have to get straight about when we meet somebody or when we’re with our partner about what our core values are in general.
And also what our core values are around it and what is our compatibility. The bottom line is there’s no compatibility there.
When I Asked If He Was Into Toxic Material, He Lied
Anne: But the tricky part is emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. It’s the manipulation and lying that happens.
Jessica: Yeah, that’s a good point. There are so many variables, but I think every woman wanting a monogamous, intimate healthy relationship will not want someone who uses toxic material. And to your point, you can do and say all the right things and still be betrayed.
We can’t control everything anyone does, especially something this covert, secretive, and stealthy. But we can be clear with ourselves about our boundaries, about our values.
And then we can communicate those to our partner or prospective partner in the best way possible. And so that’s to empower the listener on this podcast to say, “Okay, I’m going to focus on what I can do.”
Anne: Yeah. And when you say they could be betrayed, I want listeners to know they could be betrayed during that conversation.
They could be lied to and groomed during that conversation. For example, when my ex started dating, he sometimes dated my friend’s friends. So during that time, I kept hearing stuff. And I didn’t interject myself into the situation, but then I would get these texts. And I got a text from a friend. She said, “Hey, I’m skiing today, with a friend, and she’s dating your ex.”
Somebody Could Say All The Right Things & Still Be Lying
Anne: He told her “everything” and said, “Okay, if you never want to see me again, that’s fine.” She thought it was the most amazing conversation. She was like, wow, he’s so open. But when I heard what he told her, it’s not even close to everything. It’s not even close. Some of it’s not true, he lied. So the interesting thing is she thought she had this amazing, like heart to heart. Where he told her everything, and she knows about him, and she felt this is a good guy.
But that’s not what it was. So that’s what I want to caution people. If their intent is to hide that they use toxic material, you’d never know. And that conversation is abusive in and of itself.
Jessica: And this is such a good point, and why this conversation we’re having is so important. Like, for example, somebody could say all the right things and be lying. And so as a sisterhood, as women who are all affected by this issue, we need to share red flags. Like, what are the behaviors to watch for? What are the changes to watch for?
Because unfortunately, we have to play detective. And it’s not to say that we need to project onto our partners or prospective partners, or blaming, shaming and accusing them. However, this is the reality we live in.
Red Flags and Toxic Behavioral Changes
Jessica: For example, I was on a relationship Facebook group the other day, and this one woman said, my, I think it was husband or boyfriend, of long term stopped talking to me.
Now when they have intimacy, he won’t kiss her. And she can’t figure out why, and it’s not a bad breath issue, and all this stuff. I mean, she’s like racking her brain trying to figure out why she’s no longer being kissed.
And I have the inside scoop on that, because this is what I do for a living. So I brought that up and she said, “You know what did cross my mind? And I asked him, and he denied it.” Okay. So again, you have that denial, but at some point she’s going to need a reason why he’s not kissing her.
Anne: I actually disagree. There’s no point at which she needs an answer. If that is not how she wants the relationship to be, she just needs to set a boundary. Because there’s no way to force an answer out of him.
The Words Don’t Matter, Watch What He Does
Anne: If he refuses to tell her and blames it on a psychological issue. She might think, “Oh, okay, it’s due to this psychological issue.”
Jessica: She would never know. I totally see your point. And the bottom line is, to your point, to take it even further. If that behavior doesn’t change, then that’s the real issue.
Anne: She doesn’t need to say anything. She can just think in her mind and make a decision. If he’s not going to kiss me, I’m not gonna have intimacy with him.
Jessica: Yeah, it doesn’t feel good to me. It doesn’t feel safe, yeah.
Anne: We try to encourage people at Betrayal Trauma Recovery not to look for reasons. Because you will never find them, or if you find it, it might be a fake reason. Focus on the behavior that makes you feel unsafe, the non kissing, and set a boundary around that. And that way you’re always on the right track.
Jessica: That’s a good point. I agree. If you don’t feel safe in a relationship, emotionally, physically and spiritually, You can’t have intimacy.
Those two things cannot coexist. You cannot feel unsafe and also be close to somebody, and have bonding, intimacy, trust and all that. So there’s been this idea that at all costs, you make the relationship work. You are in a relationship, and you stick it out.
Now there’s new data that says, your health, psychological health, emotional health, physical health, all that is better being a single person or being alone, and not being constantly in that state of nervous system arousal. Watching your back, wondering, questioning, because that wreaks havoc on the nervous system.
Boundaries Are Actions, Not Statements
Anne: So I want the listeners to know that too. I think there are many people out there, especially women, thinking I have to make this work or stay in this because the alternative is worse. And the alternative is sometimes way, way better. I always say don’t worry whether you want to be in the relationship, if you set boundaries around the behavior. This is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop. It teaches you how to set small boundaries and watch from a safe distance.
So, for example, if you don’t want to kiss and if I don’t feel safe, I’m not having it with you. The relationship will take care of itself. He will be like, oh, well, I don’t want to date you anymore. So you don’t have to be like, well, if he doesn’t start using a spoon properly, then I will break up with him, right? You could say, “Well, if he’s not going to use a spoon properly, I don’t even have to say anything to him. But I’m going to take my food and actually go in the other room.”
When He Lied To Get What He Wanted
The cool thing is, you don’t even have to tell him. You don’t have to say, “If you put your elbow in my face, I’m going to leave.” A boundary isn’t something you say. It’s the action you take. When you talk, when you say, “Hey, I don’t like it when you put your elbow in my face.” That’s just a statement. It’s not a boundary. You don’t have to only make boundaries around deal breakers.
Jessica: Absolutely.
Anne: You can make boundaries around any type of behavior that you’re like, meh, this is not working for me.
Jessica: Exactly.
Anne: That’s my thought about it, but I don’t know how you feel.
Your Partner’s Job: To Create Safety
Jessica: You’re spot on, it’s good to get to know the person, take it slow. But when you start to feel like it’s going somewhere romantically, I do think it’s good to start talking about what are your views on this kind of thing?
Anne: A note here really quick. I just want to say Jessica is agnostic, spiritual, but I’m going to put words in your mouth here. You are not of the type that’s like no contact before marriage. So if you’re dating someone and you feel like, okay, this is going somewhere. I think I’m ready to have intimacy with this person. Marriage is not a boundary for you. Is that accurate?
Jessica: That’s accurate.
Anne: Your perspective will be different than mine, because mine’s going to be, what are the things I need to know before I have a relationship with this person?
Jessica: Right, right, absolutely. This is why there is no formula, right?
Anne: Exactly. So when I decide, okay, do I not only want to have intimacy with this person, which would be maybe a decision about a few things? I’m thinking, do I want to marry them and ergo have intimacy with them?
Jessica: Right? Are they marriage material? Yeah, that’s what you’re thinking. There’s obviously a wide spectrum, and for me, it’s love, safety, and respect. I’m not loose or, or, uh, boundary-less or even, what’s the word? Dare I say liberal? I’m not liberal when it comes to that.
Can Women Figure Out If He Is Lying Early On?
Jessica: I think it has meaning, and I think it’s bonding, and I think people need to be more responsible. It’s a big deal. And there’s data that supports that, what it does in our brain and how we feel bonded through that. And betrayed when that connection is broken.
So whether you’re waiting for marriage or waiting to get to know the person and have these other values addressed, it’s important, I think, just to bring it up in a way that’s about you.
And of course, I’m going to say it right away, and in a way that is helpful for me, because then if the person sticks around, great. If they don’t, well, that helps me weed them out. Whether it’s not just romantic partners, but friends, colleagues, I mean, it goes on and on.
Anne: The interesting thing about dating and marriage is that even though he’s toxic, you might not know until years later.
When Should Women Ask Her Boyfriend About Toxic Material?
Anne: It’s not like smoking. It’s not like meth, I mean, people can hide their drug addiction. But after a while, you’d be like, this person doesn’t have any teeth, you know? You can see it. Or maybe with alcoholism, you can smell it on them or something. But if he’s using toxic material, there’s no tell.
Jessica: It’s true, you may never know, and this is why you have to pay attention to behavior and what is or isn’t working for you. So if you’re in a relationship, let’s say you’re dating somebody and talk about, what do you want out of a relationship? And they say, I want monogamy. And you say, okay, good. We’re on the same page there.
We both want monogamy. These are things that obviously need to be discussed, right? So we’re both in it with one person, blah, blah, blah. And then you can even take that conversation further by saying, let’s define monogamy in this digital age we live in. Well, for me, monogamy means my partner is not seeking stimulus outside the relationship with me.
And that’s a broad statement that encompasses a lot. So not seeking stimulus outside the relationship. That means not going to strip clubs. That means, you know, not even going to somebody’s Instagram page and looking at their bikini pictures seeking stimulus.
We Can’t Control Others’ Toxic Behavior, But We CAN Set Boundaries And Honor Our Values
Jessica: Now it’s not to say, I mean, obviously we live in a misogynistic, objectified world. Men will see images of women everywhere. That’s uncomfortable for most women, but it’s the reality. I mean, that’s like the polluted air we breathe, right? You can’t avoid it. It’s just pollution.
What you want, though, is the person’s commitment to not seeking it out, and also to paying attention to you. And the relationship he has with you. Really focusing that energy on you, on your monogamous relationship, because that’s what defines monogamy, is that you’re having intimacy with one person. And it might not be a lifetime of a monogamy, but at that time it’s that person.
You know, five years from now, you might divorce, and then it becomes a different person. But it’s still monogamy, because it’s one person. So I would say as a guideline to define the kind of relationship you want, and then define what monogamy means for you.
When you say to somebody point blank, objectifying women has the same effect on me as a man cheating on me. That’s a solid, clear statement. So then if he decides to go home that night and use toxic material, he is willingly doing the thing you said is cheating.
Anne: And I think going even further than that, saying this is what I see as monogamy, this is how I define it. And if I ask him, and he lies about it, hides it from me, or manipulates me to make me think that’s not happening. That is coercion. That is abuse.
Make YOUR Health & YOUR Safety The Priority
Anne: You would be doing that. And I do not want to be abused. When I was young, my mom told me about rape, and she said, “If anyone is raping you, I want you to look them in the eye. And I want you to strongly and forcefully say this is rape and I will prosecute.”
She had me repeat that several times, and we role played a little bit, and that’s what she wanted me to say. And I want women to say that too. This is what coercion is, and I will be very hurt and it will be abuse. So if I find out, that’s what you would have done to me.
Jessica: Calling it like it is is very important. Women find themselves in situations, as you know, there’s a lot of gaslighting and manipulation going on, so we might sense that.
Like we know something’s wrong, the hair on the back of our neck stands up. Just something’s off. And if you don’t have proof that person might just be like, that’s not happening. This is all in your head. What are you gauging this on?
Anne: I want to ask you something.
Cultural and Religious Perspectives on Toxic Material
Anne: So in my culture, where I live no one has ever set me up with, nor is anyone who is agnostic asking me out. I would go, but I’m just saying nobody is. So all the people I am in contact with are religious. From my point of view, if I talk to them, they’re always going to say, of course not. Always. I’m never going to get the response, like, oh, I do use that stuff. I’m never going to get that response.
I might get a, I used it in the past, but now I know it’s bad and I don’t anymore. But I’m like, I don’t believe any of you guys. For you, where you’re dating people who may not be religious. When you bring this up, how do they react? Does it go well? Does it go weird? Can you talk about some personal examples you have?
Jessica: Most of the people I have dated have been not religious. 99. 9 % of the time when I talk about my stance on the industry in general. Most non-religious people are taken aback. They want to know why. “What is the problem? What’s the deal? Isn’t it about choice and personal empowerment?”
And if a woman decides, they usually try to flip the script to this whole choice argument. “If you’re really a feminist or care about women, you’re going to let them do what they want.
Philosophical Debates About What Causes Men To Be Toxic
Anne: So are they arguing with you on that point?
Jessica: So in my dating history, the person says he’s on board with respecting the boundary. So that’s first and foremost, like, yeah, okay. I can do that with. I’m on board with respecting that boundary. Okay, great. However, there is a lot historically, a lot of arguing about the topic. So my boundary in the relationship is set. Cause I’m really black and white about it.
It’s a deal breaker for me. And so when I have that conversation about, “Hey, we’re going further in the relationship. I want to be committed. Let’s be monogamous. What are your deal breakers? What are your non negotiable?” And we have that conversation, and he shares with me, and I share with him what those are. And they could be the same or different depending.
There’s usually some sort of philosophical debate or argument. And you’re that black and white about that issue. You must be religious, you must be conservative. There’s like all this stuff tied to it.
And then there’s this whole thing about prudishness and repression, and there’s this idea from many non-religious people that if you take a firm stance about this topic, you must be coming from a pious or religious perspective.
Define Your Relationship Boundaries
Anne: So you have that philosophical argument, but how does it go in the actual relationship? Does it end up falling apart because he doesn’t believe you, or because he’s lied, or what happens next?
Jessica: There is a lot of explanation and a lot of what I would call psycho-education. I’ve had to psycho-educate every man I’ve ever been close to or been with romantically, about people. Also about objectification of women and what it does to relationships. Also what it does to a person’s brain. And honestly, I don’t mind having the conversation if the tone of the conversation is inquiry, listening, learning, and wanting to be a better person.
But if it’s a debate, I usually shut that down. I’ll say my piece, and then I’ll be like, I’m not interested in debating this with you. I happen to have a lot of expertise in this area. I have the data.
Anne: With the debate guys, do you end up having a relationship with them?
Jessica: I have ended up having a relationship with, after the debates have gone away.
Anne: So after you’ve said, hey, I’m not debating with you anymore.
Jessica: Not that quick, but it’s almost like coming from different worldviews. So, I’m coming at it with this firm, I have all this information.
Anne: I understand. What I’m looking for is, what’s the end result?
Find Clarity Through Boundaries
Jessica: The end result is that I end up with somebody who’s on board with learning about it. I hate to use this word, but converting.
Basically, if somebody listens to what I have to say, with an open mind and an open heart, and trust me. They’re not gonna think it’s okay anymore. And if they did, it wouldn’t work out. Like, they wouldn’t want to be with me, and I wouldn’t want to be with them.
So, once that has been put out there, and I try to do it in a way that’s educational. Because this is the culture we live in, most men have absolutely no idea.
Anne: So you have been dating the same person for years and he has been converted?
Jessica: Yes, absolutely.
He was coming at it from more of this. “Well, shouldn’t people be free to do what they want to do and what feels good to them?” He was also coming at it from an open-minded place. If anybody’s gonna fall for me and my belief system, I’m very counterculture on this topic.
As you know. I know you are too for somebody to stick around, and someone with this counterculture perspective says a lot about them as a person anyway.
If I Ask About Toxic Behavior And He Lies – It’s Abusive
Jessica: He obviously had to get on board for it to work.
Anne: That’s why I think the whole religious situation is irking me. I’m so irked because I am very religious. At this point. I’m like, I don’t care if the person I’m dating is religious or not. I am, and the reason I feel like that, currently. So I mean, maybe when it comes down to it, because I don’t drink, for example. I don’t watch rated R movies.
So maybe when it came down to it, just the way my lifestyle is, it wouldn’t work, you know? I don’t know. But, I would much rather have somebody like that. Than someone who purports to be like, no, of course I don’t like it, because everyone in our culture doesn’t like it, and everyone in our culture is supposed to be monogamous.
That is like the worst. And that is happening throughout the religious culture, like exponential levels, the lying and the manipulation and stuff. It is so bad. And it is annoying. Not just bad and annoying. It’s coercion. It is abuse.
Jessica: It is abuse. It’s so subverted and underground, like at least if you’re talking to somebody who’s non religious or interested in exploring the topic to get to that place, but if you say and believe it’s wrong and you’re doing it anyway.
Anne: Where do you go from there?
Jessica: Where do you get? I believe slavery is wrong, but I’m gonna have a slave. Like where do you go from there? Yeah.
Anne: Exactly.
The Impact Of Toxic Material On Templates
Anne: Let’s talk about the manipulate your template issue. Because I was talking with a friend yesterday, and she said, “You know what you don’t explicitly ever say on the podcast?”
And I was like, “what?”
She said, “You don’t explicitly say that many abuses women suffer in their homes, like the names being called or the way they’re being treated, are actually what the men are viewing with this type of toxic material. She doesn’t know that the way he’s treating her comes from what he watched.
Because she’s not watching it, she doesn’t know that these behaviors may have come from there. I think it’s important to realize that, and this is exactly what you said, that what you are watching is altering your template.
It’s altering what you are attracted to. And we’ve got that happening a lot, where men are no longer attracted to their extremely attractive wives or girlfriends. It’s not hard to see what his lack of intimacy does to a woman. Because their template is being edited or altered by unrealistic depictions of women.
Jessica: It’s being altered by unrealistic depictions as well as self stimulation. The arousal and the orgasm that happens when they’re viewing this takes it further.
Cultural Conditioning & Intimacy Scenarios
Jessica:I mean, we’re all conditioned. I have cultural conditioning around what I think is attractive and unattractive for myself as a woman. Society conditioned me to be hairless, wax my legs, and all that. So we all experience cultural conditioning around these things. We’re always comparing things to what we see in the media and everything else. The idea, obviously, is to go beyond the superficial when you meet somebody.
And actually have true intimacy, which is beyond hairy legs or non hairy legs, and that’s the work all couples need to do. It is finding intimacy that goes beyond what the media has been feeding us. You can’t have it both ways.
You can’t be masturbating to these images, and now we’re not just talking about unrealistic images. We’re talking about violent degrading, you know hateful types of scenarios. And images and this chemical concoction that happens in the brain, and what that does neurologically to the brain. There’s no argument for a net benefit for this type of toxic material.
Just for the record, I oppose self stimulation in a relationship with two willing partners who want to have it. If one person goes off in private or in secret to masturbate, that raises a big question mark. I’d rather have my partner say, “I’m not okay with that, and this isn’t going to work,” than agree to it and then resent me for it.
He Lied About Something I Cared Deeply About
Anne: And I think that is actually the biggest problem right now. Because like with me, I said, “This is what I want. I want this type of monogamous relationship. Self stimulation is not okay with me like ever. That’s my thing. Never, it’s never okay. These are my boundaries.”
And he said, “Absolutely, absolutely”. So when he lied and said he didn’t do any of it. So that is the like scariest part of it. And that’s where abuse, manipulation, lying and coercion comes in. Because that was so abusive.
But let’s pretend like we marry, and a month in he’s like, you know what? I thought I didn’t want to, but I actually do, and I’ve been doing it, so you said that was a boundary. And I would have been like, oh, that stinks. But the thing was, then he acted like he wanted to change.
Critical Analysis of Values
Anne: Part of the problem is, I don’t think, at least in the religious community, men know that they’re supposed to act a certain way, and so they act like that. But I don’t think they’ve really come to grips with I don’t act according to my values. I’m not doing the things that I’m supposed to do. And I need to be honest about that. They just kind of like go with the flow and say what they’re supposed to say. And that’s what’s irking me.
Jessica: I think you bring up a really good point about what I would call critical analysis.
It’s important for people to develop these values through critical analysis, rather than simply accepting them as how they’re supposed to be. Even non-religious people obviously hold a sense of morality, ethics, and an understanding of right and wrong. I, as a non-religious person, developed this through a lot of critical analysis. You have every right to feel annoyed and upset when you see this trend in this population.
Anne: Jessica is amazing. I appreciate her perspective, because at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are interfaith, but also inter-paradigm. So people who have no faith or people of whatever paradigm are welcome here. And so I always love having a different perspective. So thank you. Jessica, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
Jessica: Thank you so much, Anne. It’s nice to have the support and having these difficult conversations. Thanks for having me.
How to Tell Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict – Natalie’s Story
Jan 07, 2025
What’s the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict? I’ll dive into that below. When we’re figuring out the difference between emotional abuse vs normal conflict, it’s important to focus on emotional safety either way.
Step one would be to take an emotional abuse quiz to see if what you’re experiencing is emotional abuse.
Understanding Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict
Emotional Abuse: Emotional abuse is manipulating someone’s emotions to exploit them. Because it’s aim is exploitation, it causes significant damage to the victim’s sense of self.
Normal Conflict: Normal conflicts are an inevitable part of any relationship. These types of benign conflicts are caused by differences in opinions, values, or expectations, but there’s no exploitation involved. Normal conflicts happen with two healthy people who care about each other and want the best for each other.
When a husband uses online explicit material or cheats on his wife, it’s a form of emotional abuse that deeply affects her. Normal conflicts don’t cause infidelty, it’s emotional abuse.
What Is Emotional Safety
Many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community share stories of feeling alone—when friends dismiss their accounts of emotional abuse. Sometimes clergy or therapists discount emotional abuse victims, especially when their emotionally abusive husband lies to the clergy or therapist about what’s going on.
In many religious communities, marriage is more important than a person’s feelings or emotional safety. Which doesn’t make sense, since the point of marriage is emotional safety. This type of abuse violates the essence of marriage. Choosing safety doesn’t mean ending your marriage. Your husband’s decision to be emotionally abusive has already broken that trust.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we emphasize that safety encompasses several aspects of life:
Physical Safety: Make sure you meet basic needs like shelter, food, and clothing. Removing yourself from immediate emotional threats.
Emotional and Psychological Safety: Finding an environment where you can express yourself without fear of judgment or retaliation.
Spiritual Safety: Your beliefs are respected and not used against you.
Financial Safety: Gaining control over your financial resources and decisions.
Sexual Safety: Having autonomy over your own body and choices.
Steps To Begin Your Journey:
Separate Yourself from Harm:
Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to learn what type of abuse you’re dealing with (or even if he’s actually abusive), and then what strategies to use to keep yourself emotionally safe.
Transcript: How to Tell Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict
Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne. I’m so excited to have Natalie on today’s episode. She’s the author of All the Scary Little Gods, and I’m so excited to have her on today. Welcome, Natalie.
Natalie: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.
Anne: You’re amazing. I’ve always appreciated your work. Especially all the interesting and fascinating deconstruction that you do with spiritual abuse. I love it. You’re so smart. And it’s just, it’s fun to have you here.
Let’s start by talking about your new book, All the Scary Little Gods.
Natalie: I wanted to tell my story. Because I wanted to help women stuck in fundamentalist programming. Who maybe weren’t able to read. Or had the capacity and interest in reading a scholarly type or non-fiction book about deprogramming. In fact, that might even scare them off a little bit. But they might want to read a story about it.
So, instead of telling people how to walk this journey, you know, do step one, two, and three. I wanted to show them what a potential journey of deprogramming and deconstructing might look like. Especially for women who weren’t ready to give up their faith. But wanted to figure out how their faith aligned with goodness and love and their core values. I think it was like the English teacher in me saying, show, don’t tell.
Anne: I loved that it felt so honest, you are expressing that inner dialogue. Helping women know you’re not crazy. Everybody thinks these things.
Discussing All Types of Emotional Abuse
Natalie: Yes, exactly. The first part I wrote from my younger self. So you kind of hear about my childhood from that perspective. And it can be kind of humorous, because as adults read it, we can see what’s going on, but the child is clueless.
And then there’s a lot of arguing and disagreement inside of me throughout part two. As to what is the best course of action in any given situation. I was in a very religious environment that was oppressive. But I had bought into it hook, line and sinker because I grew up in an environment like that.
Fortunately, I kept journals. And when I read through them, I heard the arguments inside of me. Part of me would argue in my journal and think one way, and then another part of me would think a different way. And so I just started listening to those parts of me and figuring out, like, what were their concerns?
I had many different kinds of concerns that were almost contradictory in many ways. I think a lot of us do. Many of us have conflicting thoughts inside of us. And then we think, am I schizophrenic? Am I crazy? What is my problem? Why do I know one thing with my head? But then on the other hand, I keep making these other decisions over here, and I can’t seem to get any traction in my life.
Anne: Can you talk about those concepts of deprogramming? The effects of spiritual abuse are so damaging how did you figure out for yourself if faith is right for you?
Deprogramming & Deconstructing Faith
Natalie: I feel like it’s a very individual process. If I said, Oh, well, my path led me down this road, and I kept my Christian faith. And so therefore, that’s the right way. Then all I’m doing is repeating what I grew up with. So I think giving yourself freedom to sift through the beliefs you maybe have. And decide which ones have served you in your life and have served the people around you.
And actually align with what you choose to believe about a creator God. Or however you want to describe that God and which ones don’t. Because for me, I kind of boiled it down to love. And when I looked at the life of Jesus Christ and what he represented, I decided he represented love and was a deconstructionist.
So when we deconstruct, I feel like we’re walking in the footsteps of Jesus, whether we align ourselves with him or not. That’s what we’re doing. I decided that love was the bottom line for me. What about my faith was actually expansive or expanding love in my own life for myself first. Then for my family, and then for those around me into the world, and what things were actually fostering more oppression, more abuse, more control and power over systems.
I realized that much of what I believed actually contradicted love. So I removed things from my life and focused on emotional abuse vs normal conflict. I also opened myself up to my children choosing their own paths, with some deciding to completely walk away from their faith.
The Concept Of Love In Faith
Natalie: I don’t have any fear about that anymore, like I used to. But again, it’s because of what I now believe about God. I was scared of God before. Because the God I worshiped was very little and scary. I bowed down, worshiped, placated and catered to many other little scary gods in my life. That sort of represented that scary God. I needed to get rid of that kind of thinking to truly love myself and other people.
And honestly, in order to really love God. I don’t think that when we’re afraid of something, we can enter intimacy and love for that other person.
Anne: Or God, right? Absolutely agreed.
https://youtu.be/AE3vGT6blBg
Natalie: And it’s a way of looking at ourselves that recognizes that we each have different parts inside of us. And those parts have their own beliefs or programming based on our life experiences. Some parts try to prevent pain in our lives by working hard to manage the circumstances. And the people in our lives or to manage us. They might think, for example, that if only we could make people like us or do what we need them to do for us, then we would be happy and avoid pain.
Now there are other parts of us that will spring into action if our other parts are unsuccessful in preventing that pain. What they don’t understand is that they want to use some methods to help us get that immediate relief. And learn how tell the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict.
The Bus Analogy To Heal From Emotional Abuse
Natalie: When I tried to explain this to my children, I had some teenagers wanting to understand this, and I gave them this analogy of a bus.
If you can imagine you are the driver of the bus, and you’re driving your bus through life, wherever you want to go. As the driver of our bus, this is my belief. We are interconnected with our creator, and are whole, complete, and resourced as we are. Our creator didn’t put us in charge of anyone else’s bus, just our own. He didn’t put anyone else in charge of our bus, just us.
We are the driver connected and at one with our creator. Though some of us may not know that. The other parts of us are on the bus. I imagined my other parts with all their ideas and thoughts. And about how to manage my life to prevent pain sitting on one side of my bus.
Then on the other side of my bus were all my parts ready to fly into action when I felt a negative emotion. Way in the backseat of the bus are younger versions of us hiding and maybe curled up in the fetal position. And these young parts of us carry all our pain, past trauma, and confusion.
From all kinds of things that happen in our lives, being bullied at school, to getting lost in the shopping mall as a child. Losing a friend in an accident. Growing up in poverty, or in an overly strict home. Or having a parent with a mental health issue or substance abuse issue. Or anything else that would have caused us harm or emotional pain.
Listening To My Own Beliefs & Inner Thoughts
Natalie: Sometimes, the parts on our bus disagree about what is the best course of action. They can judge each other. They fight. I used to think there was something wrong with me. Because I had all these opposing thoughts. I couldn’t figure out which ones I should obey.
I kind of saw my inner voices, as just more of the little scary gods in my life, shouting orders. And threatening me if I didn’t do everything right. But now that I am aware of this, I’m not afraid of these little parts anymore. I can hear these thoughts in my head, and I think, oh, these are different parts of me.
So that’s when I try to slow down and tune in. And listen to what each individual part is trying to communicate to me. I’m not listening to something outside myself. I listen to my own beliefs and inner thoughts. If I don’t ever slow things down and stop to listen, I’m never going to know what’s going on inside of me. And then I won’t have the self awareness that I need to address these issues that I’m struggling with.
These parts of us, they also need an empathetic witness to determine if it’s emotional abuse or just regular conflict. And find peace and calm in our bodies. And we are, or can be, that empathetic witness for ourselves. I think it’s miraculous and comforting to know that our creator within us also partners with us inside of our core self to be that empathetic witness.
Using Self- Compassion To Determine What’s Going On
Natalie: Our opportunity and challenge is to address those parts of us confused and hurting, and move towards those parts in love and compassion. Finding what’s going on, and finding out what they believe. And then loosening up their thinking a little bit. So that those parts of us can experience the warmth, the light, and the love God has for us.
Anne: That’s beautiful. It’s such a good way to describe it. I think the way you describe it is way more effective, but I’ve described it like this, it’s competing values. Because you’re like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be obedient, so trying to figure out what the best thing to do is.
Natalie: Or even like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be vulnerable and have intimacy with someone. How do you get both things? Well, sometimes that depends on the other person, and figuring that out within yourself is so important. Because you don’t want to make yourself vulnerable to someone who isn’t safe to be around.
Anne: Unfortunately, religion didn’t teach us about safety. They taught us about evil in a way that didn’t help us be safe. I think about that a lot, because there are so many people checking the religious boxes who are actually evil. They’re not safe at all. And yet they’re religious leaders, or they’re in that power over dynamic that is so harmful. And so deconstructing all that takes a long time, and it takes listening to yourself.
Natalie: And we’re taught that we can’t trust ourselves. It’s interesting using the word safety.
Why Do Religious Women Struggle To Identify Abuse?
Natalie: We’re taught to glorify suffering. So when you’re not safe, you are suffering. So it’s almost like you’re glorifying being in a state of unsafety and hyper arousal to trauma, because that’s the spiritual thing to do. And of course, if you think that’s a problem, then you must not trust God. I just think many beliefs have been put in place by people who have really twisted the Bible. Or twisted religious thoughts to serve themselves and enable them to abuse people.
I started connecting some dots for myself in my own life when I was diagnosed with complex post traumatic stress disorder. The first dot I connected was my understanding of what CPTSD was, and then how I ended up having it. And there are three things that can trigger CPTSD. One is an uneven power dynamic.
Which happens with women of faith in abusive marriages. There’s an uneven power dynamic when you are in a marriage with someone who is powering over you and abusing you. And then the second thing that can cause C PTSD is repetitive, prolonged trauma. So it’s not just one incident.
It’s years and years of invalidation, criticism, gaslighting, all that kind of stuff happening over a period of time. Death by a million cuts, some people will say, or a million bee stings. And then the third part is, the perception that there is no escape. A lot of Christian women actually could get out, but they don’t think they can. Because they’ve been programmed to believe they’re not allowed to get a divorce. So that was dot number one.
The Importance Of An Empathetic Witness
Natalie: The second dot, the other missing piece in my life was an empathetic witness to my experiences. Nobody believed me. I felt like I was in a glass bubble for most of my life, suffocating, screaming and banging on the glass for someone to see me. And hear me and let me out. And people would just walk right by and completely ignore me.
So there’s a lot of deflection and spiritualizing of abuse and pain in Christian circles. And there’s this theology too, in many Christian circles, that men have rights and privileges that women don’t have. And also that women are often blamed for many things, like being a stumbling block for men with our bodies.
Or trying to emasculate men simply because we might have a different opinion or thought. Or maybe we could be more educated than them, or have a better idea than they do. And then we’re accused of emasculating men.
Anne: Heaven forbid, I was accused of emasculating my ex, so yes.
Natalie: So dehumanizing. I think the only way out of this mess is for the individual woman to find her own voice, power, and autonomy. And to take that back to herself. I believe now that we do that by turning toward ourselves and becoming that empathetic witness that we have needed our entire lives. This is how we heal our inner world.
There’s also a theme throughout my life of missing a mother to show me what this looks like. I thought I had a wonderful mother, bizarrely. But as it turned out, she was never able to heal herself. So she ended up unable to see, hear or validate my perspective.
Determining Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict: Listen To The Spirit Within
Natalie: So part of my healing was learning how to actually be that mother to myself.
Anne: It’s confusing. At church on Sunday, someone said 10 things Jesus never said. And she proceeded to say, Listen to yourself is one of the things Jesus never said. He said, listen to the Spirit. As I’m sitting there, I’m thinking, how do I know if it’s emotional abuse if I agree with both things? I want to listen to the Spirit, but the Spirit is my inner voice.
The Spirit is leading me to truth. And to tell people, don’t listen to yourself, listen to God. But then who do they want God to be? The leader of the church who’s saying, no, no, no, keep your mouth shut, sit down. Or the actual Spirit inside of you that tells you what’s right for you.
Sometimes it gets so complex as a believer to think, well, is this me? Is this God? Is this something else? Can you talk about the conflict women feel that maybe their inner voice is a healthy, safe person to follow? Especially if they’re getting that type of spiritual abuse.
Natalie: You know, what is the motivation behind teaching something specific like that? Yes, there’s some truth, but also someone can teach something and have an ulterior motive or reason. Maybe they aren’t even aware of it. So sometimes calling out people’s motives is important.
When Jesus left the earth, he said, “Don’t worry, I’m going to give you a gift.” And it wasn’t the Bible. The gift he promised was the Holy Spirit. He said, “I’m going to give you a helper who’s going to guide you in all things.” Each person was given the Holy Spirit inside of them.
Partnering With God In Decision Making
Natalie: So I tell people, God is partnering with you in your core. You’re never going to get it all right, because you’ve got different parts of you and that are wounded. As they should be in this world. People sometimes ask me, why is it that I have all this trouble in the way I think? Sometimes I make choices I don’t want to make. And I’m like, that’s because you’re just a normal human being. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re normal.
And God didn’t say, I’m going to create all these gods and goddesses. He created humans. And so what is that amazing thing that happens when we can partner with God, our Creator, in making decisions? And moving through life, and also be open to making mistakes.
I’ve got some new grandchildren. They’re all under one. My son had triplets, and then my daughter had a baby at the same time. So I’ve got these four babies. They’re all almost one. So they’re learning how to crawl and stand. Let’s say I was to take my granddaughter, we were going to go in the backyard and hang out.
If she tried to walk and she fell, or she tried to climb over something too hard for her to climb over, I’m not gonna berate her. And say, I can’t believe you tried to do that, that’s so ridiculous. I’m also not gonna hold her and put her down and let her explore. And make her own decisions about, like, I wanna look at this flower, I wanna climb over this rock.
Learning & Growing Through Mistakes
Natalie: As a good grandma, I’m gonna love her and put her down and let her explore. And I’m going to be with her. I’m going to be here to catch her when she falls. But our kids will fall off their bikes. They’re going to make mistakes. They’re going to date someone who’s the wrong person, and end up getting their heartbroken.
That’s part of living this life on earth. And God’s not up there going, okay, you’re my puppet. I’m going to tell you where to go and what to do. And if you do everything exactly, as I say, nothing bad will happen to you. And that’s how everyone will know that you are a good Christian.
You will make all the right decisions. You will know exactly what decision to make when you come to a fork in the road. That’s not true. None of that is true. I wouldn’t have ever said that or articulated it like that. But honestly, that’s what I believed. And that is very baffling, and it doesn’t make any sense.
And it does bring a lot of shame then, because when you make a mistake. Like for example, I married someone I thought God wanted me to marry. And it turns out it was a very, very bad decision, but God was with me through all of it. And I don’t look back at that and go, “God, why did you make me do that?”
God didn’t make me do that. I made that choice myself based on what I had been programmed to believe about marriage, about my job as a godly person, and what I needed to do to fulfill that role. And so I made a choice based on my understanding at that time.
How To Heal From Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict
Natalie: And then 25 years later, I decided to divorce him based on my more updated understanding. Of how life works, you know, 25 years later, I’ve told my kids, you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to buy the wrong house that loses its value, make a bad investment, take a bad job or possibly marry the wrong person. But that’s okay.
That’s part of God allowing you this amazing, beautiful privilege of living a life. And you also get to change your mind and pivot any time you need to. And we can’t always pivot out of everything, but we can pivot out of many things. Sometimes when a hurricane, tornado or fire comes through and destroys the community. You will see that 10 years later, that community has been rebuilt.
It looks different. It’s not the same community anymore. We can rebuild our lives and we can start over when we do make mistakes. And I think God is all in on all of that.
Anne: Yeah, that’s the reason we came here to learn and grow.
Natalie: Exactly.
Anne: just like your granddaughter. You can’t do it without doing it.
Natalie: That’s exactly right.
Anne: Speaking about learning and growing, one of my jobs and your jobs as a podcaster is to educate people about spiritual and emotional abuse. There are two parts. There’s the part where you’re spiritually and emotionally abused, and you don’t know that you are and your body’s reacting to that. And then there’s your reactions after you’re educated about it now that you know what you’re looking at.
Natalie: I began to look back to my experiences growing up, as well as my 25 year marriage to an emotionally and spiritually abusive man. I finally understood why I reacted in so many different ways to those experiences, which is why I decided to write my book. I wanted to allow those different parts to tell a portion of my story.
One of the biggest things I hear Christian women saying about their marriages and lives is that they’re so confused. If we’re confused, we can’t problem solve. We have to know what the problem is, or we’re not going to find a solution. So I learned that I was confused. Because there were different parts of me who had different ways of thinking.
So one part of me minimized it. I call her Rosie. One part of me exaggerated it and believed I was doomed, and my children were all doomed. Another part of me spiritualized it and viewed it as a badge of honor to be an abuse victim for Jesus.
Anne: Wow. I’ve never heard that before, and I have to say it. Okay, this is Natalie’s, but I’m quoting her, “an abuse victim for Jesus.” That is amazing.
Natalie: I know, it’s really sad. It’s really sad.
Anne: I just, there’s so many people who are an abuse victim for Jesus.
Natalie: They have that badge and…
Anne: Yeah.
The Role of “Rude” In Self-Liberation
Natalie: Wear it with pride. Yeah, I had this other part, I call her my rude part, and she’s my truth teller. My mother used to tell me I was rude, and when I became a teenager, I started seeing things for what they were, and started calling them out. And ooh, I would get in bad trouble for that. But my mom would tell me that I was rude. But rude showed up regularly with her analysis of what happened.
All my other parts outnumbered rude. And I had been programmed, you know, from childhood to believe that rude was my rebellious, sinful part. Don’t listen to that voice. You know, rude will get me into trouble, but rude was ultimately the part of me inside of myself who set me free in many ways.
So how do our bodies react? Well, I think that depending on which part of us were blended or flooded with at any given time, our body’s going to react that way. So after an abuse incident, like if my husband had just gotten done, telling me everything was my fault. That I was a horrible person, basically projecting all the things he did onto me.
My melancholy part would just want to die. I had so much self loathing. I could not please my husband. He insisted everything was my fault, and my experiences were all in my head. So I just thought I was going crazy, and the pain in my body was so deep and dark. And hurts like physically hurt. I often wished I could just die because it hurt so bad.
Living With Anxiety & Overperformance When It’s Emotional Abuse
Natalie: But then I had this other part of me, I call it freaked, and my freaked part had anxiety about everything. So what that part does in my body is it’s constantly on an adrenaline high. It makes me want to over-perform to please everyone, so they won’t criticize or get angry at me. So I get up in the morning and I’m like, I got to make sure the house is clean.
I make all these phone calls, and take a meal to these people. And I got to make sure I homeschool my kids just right. All those things, that was my freaked part. That’s how freaked was showing up in my body.
After an abuse incident, my Rosie part would always kick in. And tell me all the things I had to be thankful for, and that I should believe the best. I should forgive and forget. And she would encourage another part of me to shut down my memory, and to this day, I have lost huge chunks of my memory.
The only reason I could write a book was because I kept journals during that time. Although I would tear out pages that described the abuse in detail, which is unfortunate. Because it would have been better to have more details. I believe love kept no record of wrongs, and I loved my husband.
So I would write down details as soon as it would happen. Then I would tear those out, but Rosie would help, so I experienced some relief almost from the pain. And yeah, all those parts, they all played a role, not that I was keeping myself in a cycle.
Rooted Beliefs & Programming
Natalie: It’s those rooted beliefs that other people had downloaded into me.
Anne: I was about to respectfully maybe disagree. Not that I want to disagree with you, because I would like to validate you. But I also was like, well, wait a minute. Was it really you? Or was it what you had been programmed to believe?
Natalie: Absolutely, that’s a good way to distinguish it. They were my beliefs, but they had been programmed into me. It would be like a science fiction thing, where you take a new baby, and you plug these little things into their brain. And you download it like a computer. That baby will grow up, and it will do all the behaviors it was programmed to do.
The only way that person will be set free is if he can access help that takes that old program out and puts in a new program.
Anne: Because both of us, in our jobs, what we do is to help women see. To give them permission to know that it’s okay to think that thing they’re pushing against.
Natalie: That’s exactly it, because we have these parts that are like, I can’t believe you think that. Like, why would you think that? That’s so dumb to think that, or I can’t believe you stay. It’s so dumb that you stay. No, there are good reasons why those younger parts of us believe those things.
Really good reasons that number one, they were programmed to believe them. But also, especially when you’re a child, you are using strategies as a child to simply survive. You can’t just leave your family, you can’t divorce your parents. You rely and depend on them for your world.
Childhood Programming & Survival
Natalie: And children tend to view themselves as the problem. And they tend to view their parents as, you know, the gods and the parents know everything. And so if the parents project their own crap on the child or use the child in different ways. The child will think that’s what the child’s role is.
And those child parts are still inside of you, fully believing those things. If our adult self looks at those parts and goes, well, that’s dumb. I don’t know why you think that. And we have all this inner self loathing, the parts will double down inside of us and go, yup, see, I knew it. I have to hang on to this. I have to learn how to identify emotional abuse.
We stay because we’re scared to death of rocking the boat. We’re scared to death of getting kicked out of all the love circles. We believe that if we get kicked out, we will die. That’s what those parts of us believe. And those are good reasons to stay. We believe something bad could happen to our children.
A good reason to stay. We have good reasons for believing what we believe. So loosening up, like you said, we both do this work of loosening up those beliefs. They’re beliefs that younger parts of us have inside of us. But if you can move towards those beliefs and understand them and go, it makes total sense why you’d think that and have compassion and curiosity.
Knowing If It’s Emotional Abuse: Loosening Up Beliefs
Natalie: And I wonder where that belief came from. And I wonder where you learned that. And I wonder how it’s reinforced throughout your life. That’s the way it should be. And I wonder if there are other ways we could look at this that might be more helpful, or that might actually set you free or be more life giving for you.
Anne: It’s so exciting to see women think about things differently in a way that is good. And when I say in a way that is good, we’ve been programmed to think that the way we’re thinking about, like divorce, maybe. Or just separating yourself from harm, or maybe even just not making bread. You don’t have to make bread. Some women, the second you give them permission, hear something and realize, oh, I didn’t know I didn’t have to do that.
Natalie: Yeah, when I was in the thick of living in an abusive world all around me, I was gaslit and programmed with the idea that there was something fundamentally wrong with me. So of course, there was this tremendous shame and confusion in my body, and I couldn’t make sense of the contradictory beliefs. I’m trying to figure it out.
I realized that these beliefs were not who I was. They weren’t my identity, but rather long held programming that I acquired through no fault of my own , that’s when I could create some distance between me and these parts of me that held these beliefs.
Excommunication & Loss
Natalie: And I could look at them with compassion and curiosity and move toward them. Like we mentioned before, just asking them questions about when they started believing that thing, and why they hold on to that belief, and how they think that belief is keeping me safe. So for example, if I hung on to this belief that there was something wrong with me. Then when someone disagreed with me or didn’t like me, I could make it about me.
Well, that’s because there’s something wrong with me. And then I could continue to reach out to them and give them their way. And if I did that, they would like me and allow me to be in their love circle. I mean, it’s so twisted. But I realized. That’s what I actually do in this dynamic. Not even realizing it might be emotional abuse.
But if I let go of that belief that there was something wrong with me. Well, that kind of scared me, because if I did that, I might just stand up for what I believed. I might stop giving them their way, and that would get me into deep, deep trouble with other people. And they might kick me out. And then if that happened, I would die. There was a part of me that truly believed I would not survive it if I was kicked out.
That is exactly what ultimately happened when I stopped obeying everyone around me. I was maligned, lied about, talked about and lost my reputation, my credibility. And then I was excommunicated from my church and my family of origin hasn’t talked to me for five years.
Isolation From Family
Natalie: So to this day, I can’t even go to a funeral for an extended family member. This recently happened, without people turning away from me and shunning me. Because they believe only God knows what about me.
I don’t even know that I had to be willing to lose all those scary little gods in my life to find a big loving creator God. And I also had to lose all the scary little people in my life in order to find a woman, myself, named Natalie. The best decision ever, but man, was it painful?
Anne: I love that you bring that up. You are searching to figure out what’s going on. Like you lost so much, but would say you feel better?
Natalie: Oh yeah.
Anne: One of the things I talk about is that I live in the mountains of Utah. And I love to ski, and there’s a pitch on any run where it looks like a cliff. And you have to get kind of close to the edge of that pitch to realize it’s not a cliff. It’s just the rest of the slope, and you can ski down it. That happens in hiking too.
You get to it and you think, oh, I can’t get close to that. It’s a cliff. But then if you look over, you realize, Oh no, it’s just a slope. It’s fine. It’s okay. Come look over the pitch. You’re going to be safe. The nightmare scenario that you were just terrified of being excommunicated, having everyone think you’re terrible. That happened, and yet it was what set you free.
Would you mind talking about that for a little bit?
Finding Freedom Outside The Sandbox
Natalie: Yeah. That analogy is so beautiful. I love it. That perfectly describes my experience with this. A lot of our fear is just fear of the unknown, but once you actually walk through it daily, it definitely hurts. It’s not like it doesn’t hurt, but at least I found it wasn’t as bad as I thought, as far as it didn’t kill me. It was painful, but when I was in that environment, it was almost like I thought that was the whole world. I had to get out of it to realize how…
How I describe it is. Imagine an ocean with a big beach, where you can look as far to the right as you want and as far to the left as you want. All you can see is the horizon. So it just goes on forever. It seems like on the beach, even. And then imagine the church that kicked me out is a little sandbox on one little part of the beach. That’s maybe four feet by four feet. And there’s some kids playing in that sandbox. And that was my church.
I thought when I was in the sandbox with the kids, that was the world. And when I got kicked out and started wandering on this big beach, feeling lost and alone. What I discovered is that there are all kinds of beautiful people on the beach that were never in that sandbox.
And I am free and I don’t have a sandbox anymore. Now I’ve got miles and miles and miles of beach to explore and other people in the world to get to know. And they don’t all have the same beliefs as what the people in my sandbox had.
The Gift Of Being Disliked
Natalie: And there’s so much relief. I was under so much pressure and stress to be someone I wasn’t when I was in that sandbox. And there was so much threatening. If you do this, then this is what’s going to happen to you. You better do it our way. You better do, A, B, and C. And so there’s always that fear. Once I got out on the beach, I could run and play.
The Bible in Psalms, it talks about setting our feet in spacious places. That’s what I felt like God did. He plucked me out of that sandbox and set my feet in spacious places that I could run and be free. And experience more of life than ever. The people always told me never to get out of the in the sandbox. There’s danger out there.
It was just manipulation, right, and lies. And then when they finally just kicked me out. It was like the best thing ever happened to me. I could figure out if it was emotional abuse or just normal conflict.
Anne: I’ve thought about that a lot with people who don’t like me. And I’m like, thank you. I don’t have to worry about how I am around you or anything. If you don’t like me, that’s a gift to me. I mean, I’ve come to this now. I’m not saying I’ve been like this forever, but it’s very, like, freeing. Instead of them saying, well, I’m not going to like you unless you do, you know, this, this, and this.
Natalie: Right. Cause then you can just be like, okay, then don’t like me.
Anne: Yeah!
Natalie: It’s a free world.
Anne: Great. Problem solved, right?
Aligning Meditation With Christian Faith
Anne: I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, which has 13 meditations that I wrote specifically for abuse victims. I was concerned because I’m Christian. But some Christian faiths don’t think meditation will be good for people and they’re worried about it. The meditations I wrote are faith neutral.
And if people want to imagine the white light as Christ, they can do that or not. Or, you know, whatever they want to do. I sampled them with Christian women. Because I was rightfully concerned that it might offend them or conflict maybe, but as they took it, they were like, no, this was awesome. They thought it helped them learn how to figure out what’s happening. It completely fit in with my faith, even though I left the meditations spiritually neutral.
How does this align with the Christian faith for Christians out there who are maybe nervous about trying something different? Especially if they’ve been spiritually abused.
Natalie: The Christian faith should be about love. I know that’s not what we’re seeing in today’s modern and warped version of it. It’s full of hate and vitriol, and grabbing for power and control. Christianity is after Jesus Christ. He modeled something very different. Because he moved toward the outcasts and the lepers, and the sick and the poor. He offered peace, forgiveness, and grace.
He promised to love us and never leave us or forsake us. So Christianity, which is supposed to be this religion that walks in the footsteps of Jesus, should look like that, right? Well, what I discovered and talk about in the last part of my book is that just because people don’t understand the way of Christ doesn’t mean that way isn’t available to us.
Healing Emotional Abuse Through Compassionate Identification
Natalie: And my job isn’t to make other people follow rules or do what I think they should do. My job is to simply walk with Christ myself. And the starting place for that is within me. So instead of criticizing, hating on, beating up and running away from the parts inside of me who carry darker beliefs. Or proclivities due to their woundedness or the burdens they carry. I have the opportunity to be like Christ.
Who I say I follow and move toward those darker beliefs parts of me, with love, compassion and empathy. When I do that, those parts inside of me, unburdened from the beliefs that keep them trapped in fear and shame. Then they enter the light and love of God. The Bible says love casts out fear. So when we’re afraid. That’s our opportunity to figure out why am I afraid and where am I missing love?
Like, where do I need to show myself some love? How can I get into safe spaces where I can experience freedom, joy, and peace? How can we hold others accountable who are imprisoning and abusing other human beings? Especially how can we offer dignity to ourselves and other human beings wherever they’re on their journey?
That’s what I do, this is what you’re doing. We focus on healing that relationship that we have with our own lost and wounded parts first. And then when they heal, everything changes.
Anne: In so many cases, the entire system oppresses a woman abuse victim. She is not receiving validation, love, or freedom from oppression.
Christ’s Mission Against Oppression
Anne: Which is what Christ came to do. I mean, he’s our Savior. I say all the time, he is the deliverer, the savior. He did not come to oppress anyone, he came to save them and deliver them from oppression. He would want them to know what’s going on.
Natalie: If we’re Christians, we’re as representatives in the world. Where we’re not doing that is where we have deviated from the Christian faith. In my opinion.
Anne: I totally agree. Many people, mainly women, are oppressed. I worry about that. They submit because they’re asked to, but what they’re really submitting to is not God, it’s not goodness. They’re submitting to evil, and it freaks me out.
Natalie: I believe if Christianity supported women getting out of abusive relationships. That would potentially force men to be the people God created them to be. But they won’t. As long as they’re not held accountable, as long as we’re just going to blame the victims, and we’re going to enable the abusers.
And enable men to have these entitlement beliefs that women should meet their needs. So women should do everything they need. The men will never heal, and the women will always suffer. And run that risk of being in a bad relationship and having no support to get out.
Anne: If their goal is to be an exploiter and not fill the measure of their creation, they’ve nailed it.
Natalie: Yes.
Anne: But I don’t think that’s what God intended for them.
Natalie: No.
How To Heal From Emotional Abuse The Growing Movement For Change
Anne: And I think there are many amazing spiritual leaders who would agree with us.
Natalie: Oh, absolutely. I think it is growing.
Natalie: I know this wasn’t a Christian movement, but the me too movement opened up the conversation and it exploded. And now there are all kinds of nuanced conversations happening all over the place. Because Christians like us are standing up and going, this has to stop, and we’re calling it out. We have to know how to identify emotional abuse, and not just pass it off as everyday conflict.
It has to start on the ground level with individuals. You know, hopefully we’ll see more and more women standing up and going. I’m not going to do this anymore, but it has to happen from the top down as well. And I don’t know what’s happening up there. That’s not my calling, but I definitely think there’s work to be done.
Anne: I was going to say, are you sure Natalie, maybe starting a seminary? I just got revelation for you. I’m kidding.
Natalie: I’ll think about that.
Anne: Well, thank you so much, Natalie. I appreciate you coming on today.
The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms – When You Can’t Get The Right Help
Dec 31, 2024
Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Did any professional that you went to help you understand that you are a victim of emotional and psychological abuse?
Tragically, family, friends, clergy, and therapists further abuse victims. When they don’t recognize that betrayal trauma symptoms are caused by emotional and psychological abuse and coercion.
“That was the hardest part of my betrayal trauma symptoms. I felt like I was screaming, waving my arms for help, going to everyone I could think of, from clergy to therapists, and no one helped me.” Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG
Women With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Are Victims Of Abuse
Many women in our community share that they did not understand where the betrayal trauma symptoms were coming from. They thought it was from the discovery of their husband’s infidelity or pornography use, and it was. But they didn’t know that his infidelity and use signaled that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive.
Transcript: The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms
Anne: I have Kathy or Justice Jones on today’s episode. She is a justice advocate who promotes outside the box solutions. And best practice responses to families living under the chronic oppression of abusers and counter-parents. I invited her here because the truth is that domestic abuse causes betrayal trauma symptoms. So we need to discuss domestic abuse and how professionals are missing it. Especially betrayal trauma professionals.
They’re not identifying the symptoms of betrayal trauma as responses to emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. So we’re going to talk about that today.
Welcome Kathy.
Kathy: Thank you for having me.
Anne: Listeners to my podcast who have experienced this understand on a deeply personal level. How the entire system does not understand emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And the continued abuse post separation or post divorce, when you’re fighting a narcissist for custody. So let’s look at the system as a whole, including court professionals, therapists, all the people involved.
When you say trauma responsive professionals, do you mean people who actually really get it or people who just say they get it? And can you also talk about the difference between those two things?
Kathy: Yes, certainly.
The System’s Failure To Recognize Abuse
Kathy: I’ve been hearing the code word “trauma informed” probably for about 10 years in national conferences and the like. It quickly became apparent to me that just because you’re trauma informed, it doesn’t mean you’re responsive.
It doesn’t mean you take the knowledge imparted to you and actually work towards the benefit and healing of the survivor. Meaning that if you’re a trauma informed professional, trauma informed is not enough. Even in your good intentions, you may be acting in ways or putting the survivor in situations that actually aggravate or re-traumatize that victim.
Anne: From my perspective, there are so many so-called “betrayal trauma therapists.” Or even addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists who say they’re trauma informed. But they don’t understand anything about abuse and abuse dynamics. And so their counsel to the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms ends up harming the victim more. Many women don’t know this when they are looking for a therapist for their abusive husband.
Kathy: So the first story I have for you is eight years ago. I worked at my local domestic violence crisis center, and was invited to become part of a local mental health program. Part of their invitation was so that I could inform their practices to do domestic violence related issues better than what they knew. It was a real opportunity for me.
And the first training I provided for these folks, they were wonderful people, but it became clear they did not know enough about domestic violence, counter-parenting, and just any issue related to family violence.
Lack Of Training In Domestic Abuse
Kathy: So I was compelled to ask the question of the 15 people in the room. They had well over 300 years total of real time practice working with families, and they could only come up with maybe 15 hours of domestic violence or family violence training. And that included their college career. And I was horrified.
Anne: That’s very typical, or even less than that.
Kathy: Even less than that. I committed myself that day to making sure this particular practice got a lot more training than they had. In fact, they asked me to do a training session for mental health practitioners across the state of New Hampshire. But still, it was not enough to address the dearth of information that goes into the programming for mental health practitioners. Another eye opening incident.
I was conducting a retreat, and we asked the participants, there were about 24 of them in the room. How many of you have been into counseling for addressing the domestic violence issues and betrayal trauma symptoms you were dealing with? 23 of those women raised their hands.
And then I said, I’d like to ask, how many of you were actually helped by that counseling? And none of them raised their hands. Then they started sharing stories about how their CSAT therapist actually encouraged them to stay in the abuse. To try a little harder, and stay a little longer.
Anne: Communicate a little better.
Kathy: Yeah, communicate a little better.
Anne: Tell them what your boundaries are. Tell them what you expect.
The Danger Of Couples Therapy In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms
Kathy: What was most interesting was that there were women in that room who were also mental health practitioners. And they were really distressed by the line of questioning. And eventually, after conversations after the retreat, one of them got back to me and said, like, that was eye opening for me. Even though she was one of the people acknowledging, hey, mental health practitioners didn’t help me with betrayal trauma symptoms. They, in fact, contributed to my pain.
Anne: I’ve found that therapists in general do not understand this. When someone goes in for help, they do not approach it from the right angle, especially couples therapy.
Kathy: Couples therapy should not even be a thing. As soon as domestic violence is identified, an ethical mental health practitioner will say, “I’m sorry, I cannot provide services in a conjoined therapeutic session. We need to do this separately.”
Anne: Even if it’s separate, they still don’t understand. Like sometimes that same therapist will relay information from the victim to the perpetrator. Like, Hey, she doesn’t like it when you yada, yada, which puts her in further danger.
Kathy: Absolutely, yep.
Anne: It’s so, so dangerous. The emotional and psychological abuse and the coercion piece are so misunderstood that. I’m concerned about anyone going to therapy, not that I’m like anti-therapy, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But for victims of abuse, it’s not the right way to go if they don’t understand they’re being abused. Because they don’t understand themselves.
And because the therapist only knows what they see, they’re not going to help that victim identify that they are being abused.
Kathy: Well, again, I can share another story.
When Therapy Makes Things Worse
Kathy: This one, my personal account where I was being abused by my ex-husband and decided to go into couples therapy. Because that was what I was encouraged to do. But my ex-husband wouldn’t go. Because, you know, I was the one who had all the problems. And I went anyway, it was with a couple who provided the therapy.
And they were, again, lovely people, but their words created a lot of damage. One of the things they said to me, even after I disclosed that my ex-husband dumped hot spaghetti sauce on me. Because I had made spaghetti for dinner instead of pork chops. They said, well, you need to confess your sins to him and ask him for his forgiveness.
And I was like, what? And that was the last time I ever went for counseling. Again, like you, I’m not anti-counseling, but mental health practitioners must understand domestic violence. Before they should provide any level of care for domestic violence and assault, coercion, and coercive control victims.
Anne: Now, many listeners come to this podcast because their husband uses online explicit material, or has an affair. And they find out that he’s been lying and gaslighting. So when someone, like a guest, or when I use the term domestic violence. They are like, oh, well, this must not be for me, because this isn’t a domestic violence situation. So I tend to use the word domestic abuse to help them understand that it is an abuse issue. But also, it’s a violence issue.
Emotional & Psychological Violence The Broader Scope Of Domestic Abuse
Anne: It’s emotionally and psychologically violent.
Kathy: Yep.
Anne: In Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, we don’t specialize in physical violence per se, but physical violence will never happen in a vacuum. It’s always going to be preceded by emotional and psychological abuse. So it is under the umbrella of domestic violence.
Women who are here and hearing this word. If you’re like, he doesn’t punch me in the face. This isn’t a domestic violence issue. It might be an abuse issue, it is a domestic violence issue. It is under that umbrella, and it is violence in emotional and psychological ways.
Kathy: Absolutely, 100%. The thing that I would say to those women who say that to themselves. The reason why you may not have seen physical violence yet is because the emotional and non-physical forms of violence he’s using against you are working. They’re doing what he wants them to do.
Every single abuser is absolutely 100% capable of utilizing that more physical form of violence to maintain their dominance in a relationship. I would say between 60 and 65 percent of the women I work with have not experienced severe physical violence. And when I say severe, I’m talking about something other than pushing or pulling.
Anne: Even just standing over them.
Kathy: Punching a wall, throwing things, breaking the victim’s things. Those are all physical forms of violence. None of them are okay, by the way. I’m not trying to minimize the effect of those, but I’m saying, societally, we don’t think it’s a big deal. Until these abusers punch us in the eyes, and there’s a lot more that comes before that that is part of domestic violence.
The Role Of Mental Health Professionals In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms
Kathy: Even though mental health professionals were the reason to do training. I have to say to my shame and regret that domestic violence crisis centers were another reason why. And police departments, judges, and guardians ad litem, the whole system of people out there were the reasons why.
But the other reason was that I needed to succinctly lay out what are trauma informed practices. Even though I’m certain there are way more trauma informed practices. I tried to boil it down to these ten. What trauma survivors need to feel safe. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the most courageous act that any survivor can do is become vulnerable enough to say to somebody else, I need help. I can’t do this alone.
Anne: And then that vulnerable moment having the trauma compounded is so difficult. It’s happened to so many of us here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Which is exactly why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I spent seven years with my emotionally and psychologically abusive ex in addiction recovery. No one said anything about abuse.
Kathy: I’m really sorry.
Anne: For seven years, I’m suffering the symptoms of betrayal trauma under the care of so-called therapeutic professionals. Not knowing that I was being abused. Not only by my ex, but also by proxy, yeah, by the system. It was so awful.
Kathy: I’m really sorry that happened to you.
Anne: Well, and that’s why I thought, I’ve got to get the word out. Don’t go down any other route until you know about abuse. Once you understand abuse well, and you can say, okay, this isn’t abuse. So maybe I can go to therapy, then you’d be in okay shape.
The Danger Of Misguided Therapy
Anne: But if you go there first without knowing about abuse, they’re not going to help you understand it in general. Maybe someone will help. Luckily, some guests on this podcast shared how they went to a particular therapist and received help. So that’s good. I’m not trying to say everybody’s like that.
Kathy: And I’m so happy to hear those successful stories when they happen. I’m like, yeah,
Anne: I don’t know.
Kathy: But it’s very few and far between.
Anne: It is. And I do not want to discount your list. But I think it’s interesting how some people are like, well, I went to this training. And you could succinctly spell out what needs to happen or a list of what needs to happen. And the practitioner or court professional or helper thinks, okay, I got it. No problem. And then they talked to the victim and they think, oh, well, this doesn’t apply to her because…
Kathy: She’s not a victim.
Anne: Because he’s telling me this isn’t what’s going on. And immediately, nothing they just learned is helpful to her. So you just need people who have been through it. Because training doesn’t help professionals either. If they don’t truly understand it, they can’t get past his manipulation.
Kathy: It’s an important point, because here’s the thing. Anytime you see a list like this, it shouldn’t be a check off. Of, yep, I did that, yep, I did that, yep, I did that. These lists should be utilized to take a good, long, hard look at how you conduct yourself. With, for instance, a trauma survivor, and say, will these people say these things about me?
Listening Without Blame Or Judgment
Kathy: This is about getting professionals to think about this trauma survivor. I just worked with someone who identified herself as a trauma survivor. What is she gonna say about me on this app?
Anne: The first item on your list. It’s not funny, but I’m smiling to myself a little bit, and I’ll tell you why. It says, listen to adult or child victims without blame or judgment. The reason why I am thinking of myself in this moment is because when I hear a victim, victim blame themselves, I listen without blame or judgment. But I always want to sort of set them straight, right?
Like, no, no, no, this is not your fault. Nope. And it can sound invalidating to victims experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Which I feel bad about, but I want to invalidate the self-abuse. I want to invalidate the ideas they have about themselves that came from the abuser. That they don’t recognize is abuse, and it’s not their fault that they don’t recognize it.
It’s sort of a Catch 22 for someone who understands abuse to listen and redirect the truth of what’s going on. Which is a totally different thing, and not why you wrote this. Because you were intending to call out people who say, well, what could you have done better?
Kathy: I have to go back and speak to the issue you were just talking about. Because it’s not just the abuser that gives the victim the perspective of, well, you’re to blame too, and this is what you’re doing wrong. That’s what you’re doing wrong, our entire society does it.
The Symptoms Of Betrayal Trauma & Power Dynamics In Abuse
Kathy: There’s no more popular social activity out there than blaming and hating victims. So for me, this first step is, you’ve got to listen to somebody who identifies themselves as a victim and has betrayal trauma symptoms. You’ve got to listen to them without adding your own misconceptions and misperceptions about what they’re doing. How they added, how they contributed, how they’re complicit in their own abuse, because abuse comes from a power over dynamic.
And an abuse victim is never a person in power within that specific relationship. So what do I mean by that? If you are somebody who’s being abused. You’re abused because the person who abuses you has decided they are superior to you. And that you are inferior to them in every way, shape, and form.
With somebody like that, you’re not a victim one day and powerful the next day. Where you’re like fighting back. Resistance abuse is a term I can’t stand. It’s not abuse, it’s just resistance.
Anne: Exactly, or it’s resistance to abuse.
Kathy: You have a power dynamic of one person who’s always dominant over the other. Power and control, coercive control, this is what it’s all about. So I like to use the acronym PRIC: Premeditated, Repetitive, Intentional, Conscious and knowing.
Anne: Hmm.
Kathy: That’s how abusers work. They do that to establish their dominance as either the partner or as a parent. And they do it with the intention of destroying your ability to have any sense of safety, well-being, or autonomy.
Anne: Would you add that they use lying, manipulation, and gaslighting to do it?
Kathy: Yeah, yeah they use a bunch of tools in their tool belt to do that.
The Intentionality Of Abusers
Kathy: People will ask me all the time, is it intentional? Let me tell you how intentional it is. I have another example. My abuser used to sleep at night with his fingers wrapped through my hair. I couldn’t even get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom without him knowing.
https://youtu.be/020px4mdTX4
So even in his sleep, he was intentional in knowing exactly where I was and what I was doing at all times. So, it is true that victims will say things that indicate they are taking on the blame for abuse that is happening to them. And I think it is perfectly okay, certainly, I have done it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times. To ask them, can I reframe that for you for a minute? Can we talk about the power dynamic here? What was happening in your mind as you did X, Y, Z?
Were you doing that in the moment to be dominant over him? Or were you trying to get some semblance of self autonomy back? Or were you trying to defend yourself or your children? And so deconstructing what that victim calls, I contributed to the abuse. Not to deny them their experience. But to say, like, hey, let’s reframe this to think about what was happening here, because self defense is not abuse.
Anne: One of the problems is that abusers will claim their abuse was self defense. No matter how bad she’s suffering from betrayal trauma symptoms. She wouldn’t let me use, I couldn’t take it anymore. I had to take a stand, they might say. But if you ask, what was it that she was pushing for truth, transparency, equality?
Reframing Victim Blame
Kathy: And, again, it’s about looking at the totality of that relationship. To say, where was your dominance in that moment? You were withholding significant information from her. That caused her to feel like you were not trustworthy, that you were putting her at risk for STI’s. Or that, you were belittling or making small the vows of your wedding that she was taking seriously.
Like, there’s always that power dynamic that the perpetrator maintains, even as he is trying to get the victim to take the blame for what her reaction may have been in the moment.
Anne: We mentioned it just barely about the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. So for example, you’re experiencing abuse, so you were abusive to him. Is the idea that BTR.ORG emphatically rejects you’re just resisting or trying to defend yourself from abuse. Which is a totally different thing.
Can you talk about why maybe the typical therapist might suggest this? Or maybe an abuse victim might think she’s being abusive in response to his abuse?
Kathy: One of the most common ideas around that is it takes two to tango. If you’re in counseling, especially in a co-counseling or couples counseling type of therapeutic relationship. It’s their nature to find where both parties are at fault.
Anne: That’s the foundational theoretical underpinning of their training. It’s family systems. That is the schooling they received. I also think that under the certification and licensure, it’s unethical for them to pick a side. Right? Because of the family systems theory with which they’ve been trained.
Betrayal Trauma Symptoms, Resources, & The Role of Clergy In Abuse Disclosure
Kathy: It’s an aside, but the more I’ve seen the resources available. The only training I’ve seen on trauma informed practices that I think is worthwhile is the training through Dr. Jessica Taylor in the United Kingdom.
Anne: I’ve had her on the podcast before. She’s great.
Kathy: Because she specifically rejects any concept that would re-brand, re-victimize, or make somebody culpable in their own abuse for men’s violence against women. She would not pathologize women for being victims of men’s violence. Mother Justice Network, by the way, also completely rejects the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse.
Anne: So many listeners to this podcast, when they find out about their husband’s online explicit material use, for example. Simultaneously, find out that he has been lying to her for years. Most of the time, they’re like a church going type man, right? So it’s assumed he wouldn’t participate in this type of behavior.
Many victims, when they find out, the first thing they do is go to clergy. And say, Hey, this is what’s going on. They think maybe clergy can help them. This amounts to a victim disclosing abuse, right?
Emotional and psychological abuse are what cause betrayal trauma and all the horrible symptoms that to along with it. But she might not know that’s what he’s doing. And 99% of the time, the clergy does not know that that’s what’s occurring. And so this disclosure of abuse ends up abusing her more in this setting with clergy. But it can happen with therapists or even law enforcement officers, or even the domestic violence shelter.
The Risks Of Disclosing Abuse
Anne: So let’s talk about some possible ramifications of disclosing abuse. Whether or not you know it’s abuse and are experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Women who listen to this podcast have done this because they didn’t know it was abuse. So it wasn’t their fault. They were trying to get help – I mean you’d think it would be easy to figure out where can someone who is abused get help So they understand the risks and ramifications more than the general population.
Kathy: Any time information gets back to someone who is abusive, there will always be a risk of retaliation. Because of making a disclosure of any kind. I think one of the first things anybody listening to this podcast should ask anyone is. “I need to say something to you, I need to tell you something. But I need to know under what circumstances would you share any bit of my disclosure with somebody else, including my partner.”
Because if they can’t say to you, we will not disclose anything unless we have your specific written permission to make a disclosure. We will not make a disclosure because it is unsafe. Abusers, when they know they’re being outed, react potentially in a few ways.
But the ones that I can think of immediately are they come back at you with anger, and their anger is always dangerous. Or they start spreading lies about you. I call it, she’s the bitter, violent, lying, lazy, crazy, drunken, druggie, money grub and slut defense. Or I call it building social equity. They try to collect as many flying monkeys around them so they can start discrediting you and what your perspective is. Leaving you feeling isolated and alone. It’s never a good response.
The Problem With Therapeutic Disclosure
Kathy: So disclosure, like even to somebody you think you can trust. You have to ask, what would you potentially do with disclosures that I make? Because it’s important, really important for your own physical and emotional safety. That you know what’s happening to that disclosure after it’s made.
Anne: Now, disclosure is a very fraught word here at BTR.ORG. Because any listener who has gone through addiction recovery with the abuser. Usually the therapist wants to do a disclosure with the perpetrator. To write down all his use, affairs and all of his compulsive behavior.
So they’ll list it all out and say, okay, we’re going to do this therapeutic disclosure. They don’t identify the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms and the perpetrator, because both of them are victims of the addiction, so to speak.
Kathy: That’s really a thing?
Anne: This is really a thing, yeah.
Kathy: I’m horrified by what you just said.
Anne: Yeah. It’s really a thing. So basically, the therapist says to her, “This is going to be hard for him. We need to support him through this disclosure.” They might do like a therapeutic polygraph at the end, which we do not recommend because they do not help. She is the ultimate decision maker about whether she is safe, if she feels safe. Many times after that polygraph, the therapist is like, well, he’s told us everything, and the polygraph has confirmed it.
So I don’t know why you’re feeling stressed still and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms. He’s doing great. Now, I guess we have to deal with your trauma. As in, you’re a problem because you feel this trauma, and the trauma is the problem, not his abuse.
The Importance Of Safe Reporting Of Abuse
Anne: And so now you become like this crazy person, because he’s fine. He’s done everything he’s supposed to do, and you’re still suffering from the effects of betrayal trauma.
Kathy: That is the ultimate systemic gaslighting, and I want to vomit right now.
Anne: Yeah, it’s really, really bad. I want to acknowledge that as women listen. Because many of them have maybe either considered this addiction recovery, therapeutic disclosure, or someone has suggested it to them. That word disclosure can be very triggering for victims of abuse in this setting, in this context. So she’s talking about reporting the abuse, which is probably the word I would use here, so that we don’t get it confused with therapeutic disclosure.
And then, make sure the person you report to is safe. That is key. We have a The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop that helps women decipher who is safe and who is not. When they start their journey to safety. So that they’re not accidentally reporting the abuse to someone. It could even be a neighbor. Who will get back to him about what’s going on.
Kathy: Can I give you an example of what something safe might sound like?
Anne: Sure, yeah.
Kathy: This is the conversation I have with everybody who calls me from the moment the phone rings, and I pick up the phone. I say, listen, before we get into what you want to tell me about, there are a few things I want you to know about me.
How To Identify Safe Helpers
Kathy: First and foremost, I believe you. You don’t have to convince me of anything. I know that if you’re reaching out to me, it’s because you are in a storm of unsafety and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms for yourself and your kids. That you are so desperate that you need support. I let them know right from the beginning, I believe you.
There’s no having to tell me anything that you don’t want to tell me to get to a place where I believe you. And anybody who would qualify their statement by saying, I have to check in with the other party. No, you don’t. No, you do not. Nobody likes to identify themselves as victims, least of all victims, because there’s no crown at the end of victimization. There isn’t anybody giving us a standing ovation. Nobody likes to identify as a victim.
So, when somebody says, I’m being victimized by somebody. We, the society around them, need to say, “Okay, we believe you. How can we help you?”
Anne: Absolutely, if you have to twist yourself in all kinds of ways to get someone to believe you, they are not safe.
Kathy: Not a safe person, yeah.
Anne: That’s a good one. If they have to check in with the other person. Or think, well, this is this side of the story. But you know, every story has two sides.
Kathy: It takes two to tango! Yeah.
Anne: It takes one to not tango. I mentioned this before when I was talking about how sometimes I talk to victims and they tell me that part of their story. And it includes some victim blaming or it includes some of the abuse that they’ve experienced that they don’t recognize is abuse. So they’re parroting the abuse.
The Burden Of Proving Victimization
Anne: Again, not their fault. They don’t understand what’s happening. They believe certain things about themselves due to the abuse. And so their experience when they describe it, usually a therapist’s role is to validate that and help them move through that. So how do we validate their betrayal trauma harms and support victims and their live experience, while also educating them about abuse and what has happened to them?
Kathy: And I think this goes back to a concept I was talking about earlier. I said, I have them share their experiences in their words to me, then I will ask permission. Would it be okay if I reframe this? You know, you’re telling me that he forces you to have relations when you’re feeling sick. Or when you’re not feeling up to feeling loving.
Can I reframe that for you? In most states, that would be considered assault. Even if you’re married, or even if you’re in partnership. So if you’re not feeling up to having relations, if you’re feeling sick or tired. And you haven’t given consent, that is a form of assault.
That’s many times how this conversation comes to me. Because the women I talk with tell me all kinds of examples of how their partner refused to take no for an answer. And they’re ticking off almost every checkbox regarding assault. And yet they won’t call it assault.
So for me to say like, is it okay if I reframe this for you and give you my perspective on it? If they’re like, no. I had a survivor once who was angry with me because she absolutely 100% percent believed that she was codependent with her perpetrator.
Reframing & Educating About Abuse
Kathy: It was a Facebook conversation. I said, I’d like to reframe this for you. This is why codependency is problematic, it is a victim blaming concept. That victim blocked me after getting upset with me and explaining her reasonings and why it made sense to her.
Sure, I make mistakes. It’s important that I acknowledge them. I needed to hear why that perspective was important to her. I still think it is appropriate to allow that reframing. So that they can start shifting their understanding, their lack of understanding leaves them in abuse. It may be for other people that they contact. It’s about making sure we’re gently educating as long as somebody has the capacity to hear it.
If they don’t have that capacity yet, it’s okay to let it be for now. Just encourage them to get other perspectives and other education. Sometimes they hang on to that perspective. out of a survival mechanism or survival skill. And we don’t want to take away what is helping them survive.
Anne: I can see better now that I am post abuse, but I remember being there. I remember people saying little things to me and me, like pushing it away or thinking that that wasn’t the case. Only to realize later, oh, that was it. And it was a survival mechanism for me. It is for all survivors.
Kathy: Another reframe that I ask people to do a lot is that the concept of that idea of, well, that victim is lying to me. I’m not going to help her because she’s lying to me. I say to the person who’s saying that, the person who wants to be the helper, can we please reframe that and think about it, as she’s not ready to trust you yet?
The Right To Edit Your Story
Kathy: As opposed to she’s lying to me, and when I think of it that way, when I say this person isn’t ready to trust me yet, I can go back to them. And say, listen, I can understand that you don’t know if I’m trustworthy yet. If you don’t want to tell me something, it’s okay. If I ask you a question, it’s never to deny your experience or to challenge you. It’s only to make sure I fully understand what’s happening, so I can get you to the best help possible.
But if you don’t trust me with information, it’s okay to keep it to yourself until you feel I am trustworthy. That just allows women to just like have this big burden roll off their shoulders. Like, she’s not going to accuse me of lying. Because I, as a helper, no matter how good my intentions are. Until they understand who I am and how I work, I don’t get the privilege of automatic access to their victimization story. It’s bold of me to think that I might.
And it is important that victims have the right to edit their stories by how safe they are feeling in my presence.
Kathy’s Website & Final Thanks
Anne: Thank you so much for the work you do. You are incredible. And I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. Kathy will be back on the podcast, talking about a few other topics. We’ll talk about how kids become abusers aligned through the abusers, gaslighting and manipulation of the children.
And also talk about the unique challenges, heartaches, and hardships of mothers accused of “parental alienation.” To maintain control and coercively control her and her children. We’ll cover those topics in a few months. So stay tuned, because she is an amazing advocate and has so much to share with you.
Kathy: Thank you, Anne. You do amazing work, too.
Here’s How To Tell If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change – Cece’s Story
Dec 24, 2024
One of the most frequent questions women ask is, “How to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change?” Whether from secret pornography use, infidelity, emotional abuse, or other devastating forms of relational abuse, women want to know if there’s a reason to keep holding out.
The answer is yes, your husband can change. Will he? That is up to him. To discover if you’re currently being emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
Do you have to wait around and be abused while he figures out if he wants to join you and your children? No. And you shouldn’t. Betrayal Trauma Recovery doesn’t advocate divorce or staying in the marriage: we advocate for safety.
Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce the abuser, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further abuse. Boundaries are not statements, requests, or ultimatums. They are courageous actions that women take to separate themselves and their children from abusive behavior.
BTR.ORG Supports Victims Of Emotionally Abusive Husbands
For women who choose to stay married, but courageously separate themselves from abusive behavior, the question remains: How to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change? Anne Blythe has outlined 9 Signs of Change that can help victims gauge whether their husband is safe or becoming safe.
We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about emotional abuse and how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband can change.
Transcript: Here’s How To Tell If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change
Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have a member of our community on today’s episode. Cece is here to share her story about how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change. Welcome Cece.
Cece: Hi Anne, thanks for having me on.
Anne: I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. I’m so honored to talk to you about how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband can change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning when you met your husband. Can you talk about how you felt at first?
Cece: So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.
But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends.
Was He Abused By His Girlfriend? Or Was She Just Protecting Herself?
Cece: And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else.
Anne: Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this?
Cece: I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so…
Anne: The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her.
Cece: Right.
Anne: A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that.
Cece: That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside.
Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me.
Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag.
Cece’s Early Relationship & Red Flags
Cece: I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.”
I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.”
And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?”
“Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency.
Anne: It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive.
CeCe: right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is.
And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match.
Experiencing Love Bombing & Mirroring
Anne: Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression.
But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it.
Cece: Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point.
Anne: So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something feels off. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not?
Cece: We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated.
Can Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Chang? Marriage & Abuse Escalated
Cece: And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it.
Anne: Not like, gently.
Cece: No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call.
So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.”
Anne: You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh.
Cece: Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents.
Seeking Help With Anger Management
Where he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that.
And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes.
Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point.
And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point.
And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find online explicit material again. At this point I’m starting to think my husband won’t be able to change his harmful behaviors.
Can Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Change? Discovery Day & Realizations
Anne: Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering explicit material.
Cece: So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. She thought her emotionally abusive husband had changed.
And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction.
But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort.
Anne: Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that?
Wondering What He Is Doing?
Cece: Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work, because he was home during the day. And I walked in and I thought, this is weird. And I was like, what the heck is going on?
He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am.” And at that point I was like, who, who did I even marry? Who is my husband right now? And I drove back to the school in tears and was totally checked out the rest of the day. I don’t even know how I got through it. That was a big turning point for me, thinking he’s got a serious problem.
Anne: Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? He obviously wasn’t changing his abusive behaviors.
CeCe: It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I think being married to somebody, I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around.
Anne: And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it.
Cece: Yeah, that’s true.
Starting Marriage Counseling With False Hopes
Anne: Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why didn’t she get out? Be like, she was trying to get help, but she went to a therapist, and the therapist told her to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your emotionally abusive husband will change? What are you telling yourself?
Cece: I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on.
There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle.
But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage.
Counseling Didn’t Help My Husband Change
Cece: Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past.
Anne: We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons.
Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore.
That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive.
Victims Of Emotional Abuse Must Get to Safety First Before Worring About If Their Husband Will Change
Anne: How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense.
Cece: Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our marriage counseling, I told the counselor this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die some days so that I could get out of this misery.”
Anne: Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say?
Cece: She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.”
https://youtu.be/oeMVZ5334VE
Anne: Did she say, you are abused?
Cece: Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on.
And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, and not try to get him to change.
More D-Days & Emotional Withdrawal, Awakening & Planning
Cece: I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that.
There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him.
I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. This kept me stuck in a pattern of waiting for him to change. He doesn’t like it. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally, of course.
Anne: You were resisting.
Cece: Yeah.
Anne: That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross.
Changing Churches & New Hopes
Cece: For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I also just. started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time.
Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials.
Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules.
Keeping Busy Waiting To See If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change
Anne: So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer.
Cece: Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost.
Anne: You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance.
Cece: Yeah, if I live my life largely separate from him, maybe I can survive. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff.
Anne: You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. Your waiting to see if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance.
And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intamacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out.
Effective Boundaries Protect Women & Children From Emotional Abuse
Cece: Yes, this was in combination with when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave, basically. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing.
It was like he would say he wanted to, and then he would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly.
Anne: Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you. Because he was busy using and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. So he actually didn’t want to with you, but he wanted to make that your fault. He doesn’t seem like he truly cares about making a change. It’s impossible to figure out how to live with a husband you don’t trust.
Cece: Yes, and I figured that out after I got out, looking back. Like, oh wow, that was why he did that. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy, because my first two were girls. It was a time of hope in my life that I’d get to have a son.
It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life. I was like, you need to do this, because if anything’s a spiritual stronghold.
Another D-Day & Numbness
Cece: He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what.
So it was this new level of having to accept it. Even though it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM.
And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point.
Will He Change: Discovering BTR & Eye-Opening Stories
Cece: I did start listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story.
And just the fact that these guys did not give up explicit material for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery.
Anne: Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? Or that seemed like for so many women that their husbands didn’t change.
Cece: I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, but some of them might want to change.
Anne: So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance-ish.
Cece: Right.
Anne: That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true.
A Chandelier Falls: Confronting My Husband, From Trad Wife To BTR
Cece: Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed.
Anne: Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah.
Cece: Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or explicit material, and I was like, this is it.
This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either.
Anne: This is an addiction therapist?
Cece: Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest.
Anne: This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if he doesn’t want to change, at least he’s being honest.
Will My Emotionally Abusive Husband Change? Disclosure & Accountability
Cece: I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing explicit video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything.
We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing.
Anne: Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, explicit material or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again.
Cece: That’s possible.
Anne: Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it?
CeCe: I don’t know.
Anne: That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing explicit material. I’m done.” He’s trying to tell me that he’s not going to change.
I Was Done With Betrayal, But He Relapsed, Can My Abusive Husband Change?
Anne: But instead, your husband won’t stop lying, because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either explicit material or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses explicit material. Y
So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image.
Cece: That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg.
So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me.
Anne: Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay.
Cece: It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he had a relapse. He did like a drip disclosure, which means he told me part of the truth. And then he said, uh, actually, I lied to you. There was more and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic for me.
Taking A Two Week Break At Mom’s
Cece: I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself.
Anne: It sounded as if he could change.
Cece: Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, no, I’m not doing this. And kicked him out of our room. I told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling.
I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.”
He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point.
Knowing My Emotionally Abusive Husband Won’t Change: Kicking Him Out
Cece: I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I had left my body at that point. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house.
My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with an addiction therapist he went to an individual counselor.
When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.”
Anne: If your emotionally abusive husband could change, he wasn’t
Cece: It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He thought your husband could change.
The Church’s Role Turns To Blame
Cece: But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously.
And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.”
I wanted him to go to rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you.
It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point.
Anne: If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The coaches at BTR.ORG are incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Women Get To Safety
Anne: How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward?
I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.”
I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage.
And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit?
Letting Go of Hoping My Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change and Finding My Way Back to Church
Cece: It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. But it was an easy decision to say they are not trauma informed. They’re not giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well. Look at Job and how he suffered, and you need to be like him. And I was just done at that point.
I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first.
But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it.
I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage.
My Husband Moves Back In Saying, “I Don’t Trust Him”
Cece: Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in.
Anne: What? What? Blaming you if your husband will change or not.
Cece: Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still.
Anne: How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you.
Cece: Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day.
I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried.
Trying To Save Our Family & Mini Stroke
Cece: I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?”
I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church.
That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary.
After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier.
Contesting the Divorce & Legal Battles
Cece: And I started using the time to refresh myself, listen to helpful resources, and meditate on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system.
And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow.
And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide.
So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all.
Custody Threats & Emotional Manipulation
Cece: It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do.
Anne: My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. He was showing now that he never wanted to change.
Cece: Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?”
It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.”
My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules.
Birthday Drama With A Public Confrontation
Cece: He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way.
Anne: We teach how to tell if your husband will change in the Living Free Workshop.
Cece: Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there.
I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.”
He would guilt me like, you’re breaking up our family. I would just go and cry before. But I just had sudden clarity, like he’s breaking up our family. And I would tell him that, I would say, “You should be ashamed of yourself. You’re the one breaking up our family, and you know it.” And he just stopped after that. It was crazy what happened when I actually stepped into my power and started calling a spade a spade.
Finding Peace By Setting Firm Boundaries By Letting Him Change or Not
Cece: We got to Christmas. It was peaceful. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He actually bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. But God provided, my mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me.
But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. My kids, I can just send them outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there.
I’m divorced because my husband was a addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people.
Anne: Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? It’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change, when he’s groomed you for so long to keep believing he will.
Bravery & Strength: Thriving After Abuse
Cece: You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out.
Anne: If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself?
Cece: I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to.
Anne: I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was help your emotionally abusive husband change.
CeCe: Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha.
Anne: Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today.
Cece: Thank you so much.
When Your Husband Apologizes – How To Know If It’s Genuine
Dec 17, 2024
If your husband betrayed you, and your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine?
I received a letter from my ex claiming he wanted to make restitution. But instead of acknowledging the years and years of lies, betrayal, and emotional abuse, he only wanted to make restitution for one week. If your husband apologizes, but you doubt his sincerity, this will help you figure out if his apology is sincere.
Transcript: When Your Husband Apologizes, How Do You Know If It’s Genuine?
Anne: So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologized. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, can my husband change, what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you.
It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy.
Escalating Abuse When Your Husband Apologizes And Tries to Make Restitution
Anne: He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his explicit material use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking.
Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that.
Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day my husband apologized for. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating.
He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry.
The Turning Point: Legoland Incident
Anne: That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children.
I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore.
The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less.
I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? He blamed me for HIS emotional abuse. There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response.
I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible.
Understanding Restitution vs. Forgiveness When Your Husband Apologizes
Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness.
My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse.
He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness.
And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead.
Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking.
It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive.
The Reality of Separation and Evil
Anne: There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home.
One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there.
Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this apology letter from my husband.
Analogies to Understand Abuse
Anne: The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that.
I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on?
I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use.
The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies.
When Your Husband Apologizes: Analyzing Its Meaning
Anne: So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us.
There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part.
If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes.
Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015.
Your Husband Apologizes With A Token Gesture
Anne: I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused.
I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity.
https://youtu.be/joi92r4w93k
So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though he’s apologizing. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie.
So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices.
Abusiveness at Betrayal Trauma Recovery includes lying, manipulating, explicit material use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it.
When Your Husband Apologizes, Observe His Character
Anne: At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. If your wondering if an emotionally abusive husband will change, I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards.
What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you.
Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing.
He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it?
The Illusion Of Your Husband Changing: Performative Apolgies
Anne: Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives them. So, at the time, I’m looking at this letter and analyzing it to see if there’s any evidence that his character has changed since I talked to him last.
It doesn’t even make restitution for the one branch. He doesn’t admit fully his history of psychological, and physical abusiveness. For example, he was online dating and going to a singles congregation long before our divorce was final. Whereas I stayed true to my marriage vows the entire time until the divorce was final.
He didn’t acknowledge that the abuse was wrong unconditionally. And he didn’t identify the justifications he used, including the various ways he blamed me. He didn’t talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable, without slipping back into defending them. He didn’t acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control.
So an abuser, they think, man, if she found out the truth, I would be toast. So to control the situation, I’m going to lie. That is abuse, right there. He didn’t talk in detail about the short and long-term impact his abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, without reverting to feeling sorry for himself, or talking about how hard the experience has been for him.
When Husband Apologizes As A Weapon
Anne: Again, he is not the victim here. The tree did not just randomly fall on him, as he would like others to believe. He ripped it out on purpose. This acting like the victim goes far with people who don’t know the truth, and that’s why they do it.
One reason I know this restitution letter is not a sign of true repentance, or that my husband apologized in earnest. Is that I sent information about how we could make the children’s schedule more consistent to help them and their emotional stability. And Chuck wrote back and said, “My personal and professional life is more important, so no.”
So he’s absolutely not willing to put the needs of his children ahead of his own needs. That’s another sign to me that he is absolutely not repentant. He is not changing.
Most Betrayal Trauma Recovery clients say they often hear the abuser apologize. And we see patterns that apologies are part of psychological abuse. Abusers use apologies as a weapon. Because they’re transactional and think it’s an equation.
They think, I say, I’m sorry. And that’s payment. Then what I get back is that she can’t say anything else about it. And she can’t expect anything of me after that. Like they think of it as some sort of transaction. Because the abuser’s exploitative privilege is the heart of his character. He’s going to think I’m such a great guy, because I said those words, most men would never even apologize. So she owes me because I’ve stooped so low as to say the words, I’m sorry.
The True Nature of Abusive Character
Anne: Abusers also think. I can act like I’m changing. So that equation I was talking about or making a show of doing this differently a few times. And then that will earn me the ability to just keep doing it. Like they think they need to perform, rather than realize they need to change their character.
We have to realize that if they actually wanted to change, they wouldn’t be that way in the first place. The character they have now is what they chose through every little choice they make up until this point. And so they actually became who they want to be. This is the most overlooked point about abusers, that an abuser has an abusive character, because he developed it through choice after choice. If he’s not internally motivated to change, because he hasn’t been in the past.
I mean, this is who he has become. Then he criticizes you for not realizing how he’s changed. Even though he hasn’t changed at all. My husband performs a performance of an apology. For a few weeks or months, or sometimes even years. And then he’ll criticize you for not trusting that. His changes don’t last. They criticize us for considering him capable of behaving abusively. Even though he has done it in the past. He’s like, I would never do that, even though he has done it.
Something like, well, I would never lie to you. When he is lying to you. He might remind you about the bad things he would have done in the past but isn’t doing anymore. Which amounts to a subtle threat.
What True Repentance Looks Like When Your In A Husband’s Apology
Anne: He doesn’t realize that criticizing you, you don’t believe he’s changed just because he’s apologizing. Or that you kind of doubt what’s going on is another sign that he’s abusive, a healthy person would be like, that makes sense. I get it. I understand. Now in my ex husband’s case, if he fully repented. It would look like I’m going to start working on repaying the $100, 000 of premarital assets that you would never have given me had I not lied to you from the beginning.
Anne: I don’t know what this letter is or means, except that he seems to be living in an alternate reality. With the two analogies I gave, this is as if there’s still this gaping hole in the ground and the tree is still gone. And he’s sending me a letter with a tiny stick in it saying, Remember that time I knocked off a tiny little branch on the north side of the tree? It was the branch that was three branches up.
I’m so sorry about that little branch. Here is a branch. And he’s not acknowledging the giant tree he destroyed or the gaping hole left. Similarly, with the analogy of the murderer, he’s saying something like, “You know that one time I came into your home?” I am so sorry that I forgot to wipe off my feet.
And this is to make restitution for the dirt I left on your carpet. I am so sorry for the dirt I left on your carpet that night in 2015. This is not what a restitution letter, when a husband’s apologizes, looks like.
Validating Boundaries and Moving Forward Dispite Insincere Apologies from My Husband
Anne: I don’t know what this is, but it totally validates my boundaries. And I will continue to hold them until I see full restitution.
It’s been years since I received that restitution letter, and I’ve never received another one. That was the only apology I ever got about any of it. And he continued to abuse me and the kids. Undermine their medical care, undermine everything, for years after that. So, I don’t know why he wanted to say he was sorry for that particular specific thing.
In 2015, he was careful to be very specific about it and send a $300 check. But, so, that’s how you can tell if the apology is real. Like some of those things that I talked about. Does he do those things? So listen to this, when you receive an apology and see like, wait a minute, is he really apologizing or is this something else?
Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: Amy’s Story
Dec 10, 2024
Is therapy causing you to feel worse? Do you keep going, thinking maybe the next session will be the breakthrough? Here are the warning signs of an abusive therapist every woman needs to be aware of.
Transcript: Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: What To Look For
Anne: Amy Nordhues is on the podcast today. She’s a survivor of both childhood sex abuse and abuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate follower of Christ and expert on the healing God provides. She has a B.A. in psychology and minors in sociology and criminology.
Her devotions are in the Secret Place devotional series. Her memoir, Prayed Upon, won the Inspire Christian Writers Great Openings Contest for nonfiction and the Next Generation Indie Award for inspirational nonfiction. As a married mother of three, she enjoys spending time with family, writing, reading, photography, and all things comedy.
We will talk about warning signs of an abusive therapist today. Welcome, Amy.
Amy: Hi, it’s so good to be here.
Anne: We have comedy in common.
When I first learned about my husband’s lying and deceit. I actually started writing comedy to deal with it, like to process it. So I wrote a comedy blog for a few years that wasn’t showing what was actually happening. When my book comes out, I will actually publish that comedy blog in book form simultaneously. So that you can see what was happening.
Amy: Oh, interesting.
Anne: I think a lot of comedians use jokes to deal with their trauma.
Amy: Yes.
Anne: So maybe we’ll make a few abuse jokes today.
Amy: Yeah.
Anne: Oh, wow, don’t worry. My audience, my audience gets it because they’re all abuse victims.
The Pastor’s Wife’s Suggested This Therapist
Anne: So let’s start with your story.
Amy: Yeah, I started attending Celebrate Recovery. I wanted to work on issues from past abuse and a disconnected marriage. I had depression and anxiety. And when I was in that program, the pastor’s wife became my mentor, and at some point she recommended I see this therapist.
He was also a psychiatrist, which was good because he can manage my medications. He was an elder at the church where the Celebrate Recovery was hosted. I had just started attending there. So it seemed to line up perfectly. So I started to see him, and he was an odd character, more like a bumbling grandpa.
Very Christian, wore a cross necklace, sweet, kind of goofy, and right away he played a father figure role. He learned that was something I didn’t have. So he played into that, and at first it seemed like an answer to prayer. It seemed like my depression was lifting. I started to see I guess you could say red flags in this relationship.
Anne: At the time, what was your thought process? Did you know they were red flags? Would you define them that way? Can you talk about your thought process?
Amy: In retrospect, I realized the red flags started from day one, and those things I didn’t see as red flags. I just thought they were quirky, silly, like he would get an afghan out of his cupboard. And like kind of match it to what clothing I was wearing. And then playfully cover me with it. Well, my alarm bells went off. But I certainly didn’t think this is a predator trying to weasel his way into my personal space or see them as warning signs of an abusive therapist.
The First Red Flags: Coerced Shoulder & Foot Rubs
Amy: I thought, this is just a silly, older gentleman therapist trying to put me at ease in an awkward therapy situation. He would bring me tea, and I didn’t see any harm in that. We both would drink tea during the sessions. So they were little things like that. And I brushed them off.
But when he offered to rub my feet or shoulders for a Christmas present, I panicked, he’d never touched me in a session. He sat across from me in his chair, and the sad reality is that I didn’t think I could say no. I had voices screaming in my head, like, pick one, pick one, this is awkward, this is brutally awkward.
So I said, shoulders. He came over and sat next to me in the chair and started to rub my shoulders. And I panicked and said, “feet, feet,” just to get him away. And the touch felt creepy. Sadly, I say sadly, because now I wish I could have just stood up and left. But I kind of slumped down in my chair and put my feet on the ottoman, and allowed him to rub my feet.
Anne: Because we reject victim blaming here at BTR.ORG, would you feel comfortable saying coerced rather than allowed?
Amy: Yeah, I didn’t think no was a choice.
Anne: Right, so that’s coercion, right?
Amy: Do it quickly, and get it over with, or put it off. And then still do it.
Anne: Right, and it’s coercion.
Amy: It is coercion.
Anne: This isn’t you allowing him to do this. This is you are coerced to do this because you feel like you have no other option. However, these were definitely warning signs of an abusive therapist.
The Pastor’s Wife Didn’t See The Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist
Amy: Right. It was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I could ever imagine. And on top of that, I felt like it was my job to make the room feel more comfortable for the discomfort he caused me. So, as we continue to talk in therapy, I’m like, look him in the eyes, ignore him rubbing your feet, ignore it. You’re making this worse, as if this is a problem I brought on. It’s just so unfair.
I ran this red flag by my mentor. Again, she was an elder at our church, and she was the pastor’s wife. I wasn’t seeing it as a sinister red flag, but I was seeing it as a very weird red flag. And when I told her, she said, “He’s so sweet.”
Anne: He was married at the time?
Amy: Yes, he’s married. He was 65 years old.
Anne: Okay, so he’s 65. He’s physically coercing clients and also emotionally and physically cheating on his wife. Another example of warning signs of an abusive therapist.
Amy: Yes.
Anne: And she’s saying he’s so sweet. This probably isn’t the first time she’s heard this then.
Amy: After this whole nightmare ended. I learned another young lady, younger than me. Who she was also mentoring was sitting on his lap in sessions. So she was almost like a pawn in this whole scam.
Anne: The pastor’s wife?
https://youtu.be/jUZiLsuSFNU
Therapist’s Grooming Others To Downplay Inappropriate Behavior
Amy: Yes, I feel like because she suggested him to me. She knew this young woman, who committed suicide under his care 20 years prior, was sitting on his lap during sessions.
Anne: What?
Amy: Yeah, it devastated me. I thought, and you sent me to him. And I don’t think she was in on it with him per se. I think she was unhealthy.
Anne: Right, she didn’t understand coercion. She didn’t view these behaviors as warning signs of an abusive therapist.
Amy: Yeah, and believed the people going to him were so mentally ill. He was doing everything in his power to help them, and so maybe he had to try more unconventional means.
Anne: There’s that. And the addiction industry in general, or therapists who work with addicts in general, believe addicts. So if an addict is sitting in an addiction therapist’s office. And the addict says, “Well, if my wife would do this, or if she would do this, things would be better.”
Like if she were more kind to me or if she respected me more. And so it’s this racket where the addict husband and the addict therapist end up abusing the wife more and more over time.
Amy:Yeah, and these predators, don’t start abusing victims until they have everyone around them adequately groomed. They have all the pieces lined up. He even had the confidence, even though it backfired on him. But he had the confidence to go after me, knowing I was good friends with the pastor’s wife. That’s how much he thought he’d get away with it.
Anne: Absolutely.
Isolation & Emotional Manipulation Are Signs Of An Abusive Therapist
Amy: I keep going, I think, yeah, he’s a little kooky and I let it go. We did a very odd spiritual type therapy, which just added to the confusion because I was a new Christian. There were many effects of spiritual abuse from him. was looking for Christian help for infidelity. Then there was another huge red flag of an abusive therapist.
I shared with him during one of my sessions that I imagined myself dancing with Jesus. Like a father-daughter dance at a wedding. That was not something I ever had, and how it was kind of a sweet thought. So the next time I show up for therapy, he says, “I thought we could dance.”
And I just felt my face go beet red, and I just wanted to escape through a trap door. Again, leaving wasn’t an option. I figured it out quickly. Because you’re making this more uncomfortable by sitting here being uncomfortable. Again, the burden falls on the victim.
Anne: Absolutely, think about an actual caring, empathetic person. Not even a therapist. They’re going to see that look flash across your face. They’re going to be like, “Oh, do you want to, how do you feel about it?” An empathetic person would have some type of awareness.
Amy: Oh yeah.
Anne: When your face goes red or when you look confused, abusers just plow right through that like, she didn’t say anything so I can move forward.
Amy: I think I covered my face. I was that uncomfortable. In my head I’m thinking, you mentioned dancing, he’s trying to help you, it’s a therapeutic thing. He’s 65. And since standing up and walking away wasn’t an option. Number one, I thought that was rude.
Resisting Abuse Through “Getting It Over With”: Signs Of An Abusive Therapist
Amy: And number two, I was connected to him at this time. He made sure I was emotionally attached. He had isolated me more by this time. I really thought he was the source of me feeling better, getting better. So I made myself do it. It was brutal, and when it was over, I thought, this never has to happen again.
Anne: I want to point out the resistance here. So as a victim, you are resisting through “getting it over with.” Victims think, why didn’t I stop it? And I want to point out that getting it done quickly, because you don’t think you have a choice, is a form of resisting abuse.
So you are resisting abuse every step of the way here. Your face is turning red. You’re putting your face in your hands. You’re trying to be safe. So as you’re resisting, he has multiple times where he can make a different choice and not abuse you. But he just keeps manipulating you and pushing forward. Yet more warning signs of an abusive therapist.
Amy: I appreciate you saying that, and feel like many of your listeners will understand that. I think some people judge harshly, and they think it’s really easy. You just stand up and leave, or you slap them across the face and you leave. They don’t understand the layers upon layers of manipulation that have already formed a web around you.
Continual Manipulation & Being Afraid Or Feeling Too Guilty To Leave
Amy: That’s when they make bigger moves, when they know you won’t leave. When they know you’re too afraid to leave or feel too guilty to leave, whatever it is. And I ran that by my close friend, and again, she thought it was sweet. And then I worked up the courage to tell her that he touched an inappropriate body part while we were dancing. Something snapped in her, and she said, “I trust him implicitly.”
And I knew in that moment I was on my own, so I didn’t share anything else with her. I thought, I will fix this relationship with the therapist. It’s just gone off the rails a little bit. Maybe it was my fault. It always feels like our fault. If I wasn’t needy and didn’t like the idea of a father figure, then I wouldn’t have caused these things to happen.
And what’s really sad is that in therapy, you’re so vulnerable. I gave him the information he could use against me.
Anne: Exactly.
Amy: And when I’m providing the information and then he uses it against me, I feel like I’m the one who brought it up. But all I’m doing is going to therapy. It makes it extra confusing. Well, you said you imagine, well no. I didn’t say I want to dance with you or I want a romantic relationship with you.
Anne: You were resisting abuse the entire time. Feeling in your gut that these are warning signs of an abusive therapist. So this is just an aside for comedic relief. And how is you cheating on your wife, helping me therapeutically?
Wanting To Escape But Manipulated
Amy: Oh, like, he’s going above and beyond to help me. And part of me believed it was a blessing that he was going above and beyond, but not at the time, I just wanted to escape.
Anne: I want to point out more resisting abuse. So you go for help from your friend and you realize instinctively that she’s not safe. Even if you don’t have the words for it. And so you pull back, which is a form of resistance. At every step, you’re trying to figure out how to get out of this.
Amy: Yes, it feels like you’re in a maze, and you hit this wall. And with telling her that, I hit that wall. That was one of my escape opportunities. I was counting on that one, too. I just was crushed when she said that. And then even more, it made me start thinking, no one’s gonna believe me. He’s a doctor, therapist, and church elder, and he’s 20 years my senior.
Who else am I gonna tell? And if I tell someone who maybe hasn’t ever been in therapy or hasn’t had my specific issues. They’re gonna jump on me right away. They’re gonna say, it’s your fault because you went back. So then you’re more isolated, and then it keeps going, and sadly the abuser becomes the comforter, because he’s the only one who understands the abuse he’s inflicting on you. It’s a very twisted situation.
Anne: And he is doing it on purpose, so that he can comfort you. He creates the problem so that he can be the solution, which is a very intense form of manipulation.
Therapist’s Romantic Advances: He Told Me He Loved Me
Amy: Yes, it’s like who else is there?
Anne: Mm hmm.
Amy: He’s the only one left. And they can turn on the charm when they need to. I’ll skip to the end. There’s only a few more months of therapy, and my panic is just rising. At this point, he’s turning up the heat, and it’s he loves me and …
Anne: Woah, woah. Turning up the heat, like he’s in love with you romantically?
Amy: Okay, this is the way he weaseled into it. He had established himself as a father figure, right? And I feel he was stuck in that role. So he started saying the key was that my heart loves you like a father. But the teenage part of me loves you in a romantic way. Well, I didn’t know what to do with that. I was like, what does that even mean? And then I thought, well, maybe that’s how all males feel.
Anne: Addiction therapists want people to think, oh, this is how men are, rather than this is wrong.
Amy: Right? So I’m thinking, well, he’s not gonna act on that teenage part. He’s just admitting that, and that’s vulnerable for him to say.
Anne: Also very creepy.
Amy: Super creepy. I mean, I was in panic mode for days and weeks. Like coming home I’m just twirling my hair and pacing around the house like I don’t know how to digest this information. And again, I didn’t think we were on a trajectory towards abuse.
I thought these were random incidences, not warning signs of an abusive therapist. So I thought, okay, he’s just fallen in love with this patient.
Grooming Was A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist
Amy: Maybe that’s common for therapists, but he’s not going to act on it, he’s not going to do anything about it.
Anne: When you say on the trajectory for abuse, you didn’t think you were on the trajectory. But even just talking now, he had been abusing you from the beginning. It’s like, I don’t realize this is where it’s going, but then I also don’t realize this has been the intent from day one.
Amy: No, I have no idea that’s the intent. It never in my wildest dreams would I have thought he had an evil bone in his body.
Anne: And that he’d been abusing you the entire time. Because grooming is abuse. It is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.
Amy: Yeah, and I can remember when I got out saying, well, the first red flag was, and somebody who knew better saying, “No, no, no. The first red flag was on day one.” And then I started thinking, yeah, you’re right. I was groomed from the beginning. When you’re not a sociopath, you can’t think like a sociopath.
And you’re empathetic. You give people the benefit of the doubt, and after I’d get over each red flag, it would go into the background. So each incident was unrelated to the next, I saw no pattern. Even when it was getting inappropriate, like, you can’t love me, you’re married. And you’re my therapist. Again, I didn’t think it was sinister.
So I was like, Well, you’re gonna need to rein that in, and that’s not okay with me, and that’s not gonna work. But I didn’t see it as, this is all part of my master plan, to get you where I want you to be.
Intentional Abuse & Isolation From Husband, Are Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist
Anne: I think that’s the thing that is so difficult for victims, and therapists also don’t understand it. Is that it’s intentional when a wife goes in about her husband’s abuse. Therapists are like. Oh, he told me he didn’t mean that. He’s just bumbling around. Men know women don’t want to be abused.
That’s why they can act nice and awesome. If they thought women wanted to be abused, they would be like, okay, I’m going to cheat on my wife. So men know they’re intentional. It’s the therapist in general, that don’t think that. And then this therapist intends to abuse you directly.
Amy: Correct. He was the abuser. And he made sure to isolate me from my husband. So it was just him, him and me. And so it was fix it or leave. And for whatever reason I couldn’t leave. I know now the reasons. He had layered so many things, like he had told me so much about his personal life. Another warning sign of an abusive therapist. He seemed like a fragile individual. He said it would kill me if you ever left. I felt too guilty to leave. I thought it would kill him.
He had stopped charging me for sessions. The reason I wasn’t super disturbed by it was that it happened at the first of the year when my insurance wasn’t paying. And I brought it to the attention of the secretary. I could see him smiling in the background. I realized, oh, he’s intentionally not charging me. And I felt like a pit in my stomach. I felt that uneasiness of that’s not right.
Not Charging Is A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist
Amy: And then I was like, I had told him how I was always told as a child. How expensive I was by my father. And how he’s trying to make me know that my worth isn’t based on any dollar amount. So again, he used something I shared with him in therapy. The other reason I didn’t fully panic about was that I knew my insurance would kick in a couple months. Literally in my head, I thought, It’s fine, Amy. He’s a doctor, I don’t think you’re going to bankrupt him.
Anne: With other victims of therapy abuse. I’ve heard that before. It is a warning sign if they stop charging them. Maybe they do that so that they can claim they weren’t a client.
Amy: Yeah, and also for me, it made me feel indebted. Money’s tight, and here he’s doing this for free. He cares so much more than the average person.
Anne: I want to put that out to my listeners. If that has ever happened where the therapist stopped charging. Then when you made a complaint, if they said, well, she wasn’t paying me. So she wasn’t a client. Because this is my theory, if they’re aware of this ever happening, they would let me know. Because I wonder if this is a preemptive way to avoid losing their license. If someone reports them.
The good news of having a community of victims is that we start to see patterns. So you can know like, Oh, if they stopped charging you, it could be a sign.
Amy: Right.
Anne: defend themselves or some other thing. In your case, so that you would feel indebted.
Amy: An ethical therapist won’t ever stop charging you.
Therapist’s Physical Advances A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist
Amy: I can see there maybe some situation where you have to work something out, but it’s short term. I’m just saying it’s a red flag. I’m gonna just skip to the end.
He weasels his way over to my side of the office to sit next to me. Because that has to happen before he can do anything else. So I was emotional one particular session, and he came over and sat across from me on the ottoman. And dabbed my tears with a tissue, which was embarrassing. It felt fatherly, but also embarrassing. But I told myself, it’s sweet, he’s just trying to be sweet. He’s just trying to be compassionate.
Well, then he pretended he was uncomfortable sitting there. I didn’t want him to go back to his side of the office, because it was soothing to me. And this is after I’d been seeing him now for a year. So later, when he eventually assaults me, I feel like it’s my fault. And I don’t want to tell anybody because I’m so ashamed.
I’m ashamed that I’m in therapy. And I’m ashamed that I wanted a father figure. I’m ashamed that I’m an adult and was duped. I’m ashamed for the parts I thought were my idea. Of course, none of it was my idea. But master manipulators use you in your own abuse process that is something to look for if you think you have an abusive therapist. It makes it confusing and maddening when you peel it apart and see that you weren’t responsible at all.
Resistance & Confusion Are Signs Of An Abusive Therapist
Anne: And that you were resisting the entire time, trying to stop it the entire time.
Amy: Oh yes, and I was going in at the end in tears. Saying, “I can’t do this, this is hurting me. I need you to stop.”
And he wouldn’t stop. For a long time, I was like, is he hurting me? I think he is. But then I got to a place where I was like, he’s hurting me, why can’t I leave? And it was a brief period, but it was confusing at the time, and I couldn’t break the tie on my own. Feeling like you can’t go to a different therapist is a warning sign. I just couldn’t do it. He would guilt me and cry. He would do something, and I would cave.
So I again went to the only person I knew to go to my mentor, but this time I went to her spouse. I went to the pastor. And I told him, and he believed me.
Anne: Oh, that’s awesome.
Amy: Yeah, and he says, what do you need? And I said, I just need someone to sit with me. Because my therapy sessions, I’m embarrassed to say, had gone from one hour to two hours to three hours.
Anne: See, that is another warning sign of an abusive therapist. They go over time.
Amy: Huge, and you know I never asked for more time. He just surprised me with it one time. And I said, “Well, my time’s up.”
And he said, “Oh, I was able to move people around to get us an extra hour.”
Emotional Attachment & Voicemails Trying To Get Me Back
Amy: Then I had the same pit in my stomach, and again I rationalized it. Okay, well cool, I guess more time is good. That’s okay. That’s nice. Then I got used to it, and it went to three hours at the end. At that point, I was so attached and so alone. Outside of this little bubble that he had created, that I almost wanted that time.
Anyway, I tell my pastor everything. I say I need somebody to sit with me during my three hour session. Because I’ll cave, he’ll call, cry and guilt me. I don’t know. I just can’t break the tie. They did, they sat with me. But when that session was over, I knew at least one tie was broken and I wouldn’t go back. Now I remained attached, emotionally attached for months. The doctor called nine times and left nine voicemails, but I knew physically I wouldn’t return.
That’s the other very maddening thing. I know the answer, although it’s hard to put into words. Why do we remain attached to people that we know are hurting us? Ignoring the warning signs of an abusive therapist. First of all, it took me a long time to see that this was grooming, this wasn’t love. This was never love. This was a man who liked to trap women in psychological cages and then torment them for fun.
It’s so hard to wrap your mind around that level of evil that it’s just hard to get there and not rationalize the warning signs of an abusive therapist. That’s what I needed. I needed to know he’s intentionally hurting me. Because I felt too much compassion if it was unintentional, if he was just human, a man, just slipped or had just gotten in too deep.
Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: Evil Intentions
Amy: I could be more patient with those things, and I needed to see the evil, and I got a chance to see it at the end.
Anne: I think all victims feel that way, so one thing I try to point out is that if you feel uncomfortable, his intentions don’t matter. Giving women permission to not worry about the intentions. To be like, you might be nice, but you, in your good guy form, makes me uncomfortable. Giving women permission to realize like, Oh, I don’t have to worry about his intentions. All I have to worry about is how I feel. This is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.
Amy: Yes, and unfortunately I didn’t have the self-worth to think that my opinion could trump other people’s. Especially a pastor’s. Other friends that went to this psychiatrist and loved him and thought he was amazing. So I always dismissed my own gut instincts. And one thing I always like to point out is that my gut instincts were spot on.
We aren’t naive, gullible, stupid and missing all these things. What we’re doing is allowing them to slip through. We’re minimizing them or rationalizing them. We don’t feel we can say no. Even though we see warning signs of an abusive therapist.
Anne: I think we’re resisting it the whole time, and we’re trying to figure it out. I don’t think we’re rationalizing anything. We are resisting in the only way we know how to at the time. You were resisting because you were trying to tell your friend. Also, you were resisting because your face turned red. You were resisting because you weren’t saying, “Oh, I’d love to do that.”
Amy: Right, I say rationalizing.
Surviving & Seeking The Support To Leave
Amy: That was part of the resisting. How can I make this situation more comfortable for myself and feel less scary and awkward? I tried to find other reasons for maybe why he did certain things. So the whole thing is just trying to survive it.
Anne: Yes.
Amy: The best way we can until we can figure it out or until we can get enough support to leave. After my pastor and his wife sat with me during that last session, I knew I wouldn’t go back. However, I was highly traumatized and still attached to him. I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I was confused as to how he manipulated me. And why I stayed so long, and allowed that. I didn’t have plans to tell anybody after that. That I hadn’t left after seeing the warning signs.
But in time, I got the courage to report him to the medical board because he was a psychiatrist. The medical board process took about nine months, and he was allowed to permanently surrender his license.
Anne: Hmm.
Amy: I guess doctors can renew their license in my state after a year. But in this case, it was a permanent surrender of license, so that was some bit of justice. But it just felt so unfair. He was already retirement age. And so he got to pretend to retire and move away.
Civil Malpractice Lawsuit Was Successful, But Not Really Justice
Amy: Meanwhile, my life was shattered. Because I hadn’t done anything about the warning signs earlier. My marriage, my family, we were all struggling. And so I decided to file a Civil Malpractice lawsuit. It took about three years, and in the end it was successful. It wasn’t about punishing the abuser so much, as it’s a financial transaction between us and his insurance company. It’s not the justice you get when you pursue criminal charges.
But it was something that allowed me to stand up for myself for the first time. Several attorneys told me that pursuing any kind of criminal charge would have been brutal for me and my family. And that the abuser would likely walk. So not to do it. And clearly, I couldn’t take on any more trauma. So yeah, I didn’t even want to go near that.
Anne: That makes sense. I’m so glad you got some sort of justice and also financial compensation, which is helpful to you, and holds him accountable. Even though it’s with his insurance, that he surrendered his license is good news.
Sometimes they surrender their license, but then they coach afterwards. And that’s scary. We’ve had a few instances of that in my state where a therapist went through this. And then they surrendered their license, then it was found later that they just continued to see clients. Under the guise of coaching rather than therapy. And that’s been very alarming.
Common Patterns of Abusive Therapists
Anne: Now, as you advocate for victims of abusive therapists. Can you talk about patterns that you see?
Amy: Well, when it first happened to me, I thought I had to be the only person on the planet to be taken advantage of as an adult. That I hadn’t recognized the warning signs. And of course, I know now that it is extremely common. And, yet we all feel alone, because we all think there was something wrong with us. That we were not smart enough to see that I’m dealing with an abusive therapist.
So that’s the first thing, is that it is common and that survivors are not alone. And the second is that it is challenging to peel apart the layers and see that you were actually manipulated and groomed by an abusive therapist. That although you are an adult, there wasn’t a gun to your head, there was a metaphorical one.
There was emotional manipulation, which is equally powerful, and I feel like society doesn’t respect that. They don’t respect emotional manipulation or threats, but they still hold women captive.
Anne: That makes total sense because listeners to this podcast have experienced it with their own husband. It’s not like he’s handcuffed her.
Amy: Yet we’re still trapped. But sadly, that kind of manipulation doesn’t get much respect at all. In fact, women are usually blamed. I want to make sure survivors and listeners understand they aren’t to blame. That adults are taken advantage of all the time. And they don’t have to feel guilty, ashamed or to blame. That was what I needed to hear in the beginning over and over.
You Are Not Alone & It’s Not Your Fault
Amy: You’re not alone, it’s not your fault. I was like drowning in shame and self-hatred, and I was confused. To become attached to someone who takes advantage of you leaves you utterly confused when it’s over. You feel hatred for the person that hurts you. And attachment to the person you thought was loving and caring. And there to support you, there to help you.
It’s really hard for victims when they come out, because there’s so much that has to be sorted through. And understood, and there are very few people educated on it to help us. So, it’s important to throw a lifeline to survivors in those early days, especially. So that they can start to untangle some of that confusion.
Anne: That is exactly the abuser’s intent to hook you emotionally and manipulate your emotions. By making it seem normal. Manipulate your thoughts, and make you feel like it is you, but it’s not you, right? So then you get confused and you feel shame, and that is their intent. This is why lying is emotionally abusive. They want you to feel shame, because it keeps people from understanding what’s going on.
Or for going for help or talking to people. And then even if you talk to people because you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t define it as abuse. And then they don’t know. So it is a big mess of he knows exactly what’s going on. But we don’t.
Amy: Yeah, shame is like a prison, and they know that, and that is their intention from the beginning. Shame keeps us quiet, like you said. We’re confused, even if we try to reach out. And can’t explain it in a way that shows what happened.
Watch Out For These Abusive Therapist Red Flags
Amy: It takes months, sometimes years, to fully wrap your head around it and then reiterate it in a way that makes sense. Because you can’t explain something you don’t understand yet yourself.
Anne: Exactly, because listeners of this podcast have been manipulated by their husbands. And most of the time, I would say they don’t understand. So they turn to therapists for help. Then the therapist ends up being an extension of their husband’s abuse quite a bit of the time.
The biggest red flag is that if you know it’s abuse, do not go to couple therapy. But just in general, red flags for abusive therapists: if they stop charging you and run over time.
Amy: There will be no physical touch, except maybe a handshake upon meeting. Sometimes, maybe, it’s ethical for a therapist to give you a short hug at the end of sessions. But even then, be careful with that. They won’t talk about other clients. The one you mentioned about the couples therapy, that is a big one. If they’re willing to see you both as couples and you individually, that is a red flag. They cannot be your therapist and your therapist as a couple.
Anne: A hundred percent, and almost every addiction recovery therapist does that. It’s so unethical. It’s so crazy. I’m like, no, it’s unethical. Number one, if it’s abuse, but even the therapist doesn’t know it’s abuse. So they’re doing all these unethical things, and the client doesn’t know. And apparently the therapist doesn’t know, or maybe they know, but they don’t care. I don’t know.
Finding The Right Therapist Can Be Difficult
Amy: When I found a good therapist years ago, I suggested couples counseling to him. Just bringing it up in general, he said, “You know, I can’t be your therapist and your marriage therapist.” At first, I wished he could because I trusted him. But then I realized that would be so hurtful, because you lose your therapist when they become your couple’s therapist. They do not have that objectivity anymore, and they do not have your best interests at heart.
Amy: If you have any feeling of unease, you have permission not to go back. It’s not rude or hurting their feelings. We’re allowed to do what’s best for us. And it’s really hard. At least it was hard for me to think that way, that I don’t even have to have a reason. You just make me feel uncomfortable. That’s something to listen to.
Anne: Yeah, and you also don’t need to tell them that. You can cancel the appointment and just never go back and not tell them why.
Amy: Yeah, you don’t owe them anything.
Anne: Yes, you owe them zero things.
Amy: It is a business transaction. It’s a service, and you’re paying them. If they are helping you, then you continue. Otherwise, you find someone else. Many red flags are things that I felt in my gut. So it’s hard to put them all into words.
Anne: But maybe that’s the most important one. I think many women in this space, our listeners, go and they think, I don’t know, it didn’t feel right. But next time I will be able to explain it better. Or we made some progress. And so next time I can like, we’re getting close.
At BTR.ORG The Coaches Understand
Anne: And I want to say, if you’re constantly feeling like you’re getting close, but you still feel uncomfortable. That would be a red flag. Many women, when they come to BTR .ORG and schedule sessions with our coaches. Or they come to our group sessions. One of the main things they say is that they understood it right away. They totally got it. They helped me. I didn’t have to spend time and money trying to explain it to them.
Almost like you’re educating the therapist that your husband’s abusive. Our coaches, because they’re abuse coaches, are helping you see, okay, is this abuse and can help you immediately. And so always thinking that next time, maybe you’ll get over the discomfort is a red flag.
Amy: I was just going to say that if you feel the burden of proof is on you, then that’s not a good fit. The therapist should immediately recognize it as abuse. And should support you and help you understand it, not the other way around. If you have to over explain yourself, or defend yourself in any way, then they aren’t the therapist for you.
You feel heard, seen and valued if they’re ethical. They won’t make you feel questioned, attacked, or belittled. But since we’re used to taking abuse from people. We feel it’s our responsibility. And that if they miss the mark, we give them another chance or we see how it goes. When we don’t deserve to be hurt anymore. And we certainly don’t need to pay for it.
Anne: Exactly, exactly. Like you’re paying someone to help you. If you feel like you have to explain it to them or educate them.
Having Hope & Yet Realistic Expectations
Amy: Feeling lighter, validated, heard, seen and feel some semblance of hope. There’s hope, because somebody sees me and gets it. That’s how you should feel when you leave.
Anne: It’s hard with betrayal trauma and abuse. Because hope is tricky. Here at BTR.ORG, we’re like there is hope you can live free from abuse. We have The Living Free Workshop. You can get to emotional and psychological safety. That may mean you need to start setting boundaries and separating yourself from the harm.
And that doesn’t feel hopeful, because there might not be hope for the marriage. Which is very hard to face. But if therapists give victims hope in the wrong thing, like my ex was emotionally and psychologically abusive. I remember one therapist who was like, he’s a good guy.
Of course, we can work this out. And so I felt hope, but it was hope in the wrong thing. It was hope that this abusive man could be non-abusive, and that wasn’t going to happen for me. So you want to feel hopeful. Also realistic about your situation. I think that’s another important thing that they’re not giving you false hope.
Amy: That’s very important, yes.
Anne: At BTR.ORG, we might be like, he is abusive. We need to get to safety. It’s actually going to be hard, but you can do it. We believe in you. You’re strong and brave, and let’s start moving towards emotional and psychological safety. We don’t know what path you’re going to take. But this, oh, come to me and I’ll solve all your problems. It’ll be really quick. And this is like easy to solve.
Therapists & Re-Traumatization Challenges
Amy: Yes, I agree. I hope things can change eventually. That you don’t have to stay in the same pattern that you’ve been in for all these years. Like you said, it may be uncomfortable getting there, but it’s possible.
Yeah, I can see how therapists can re-traumatize so many people. Today we were referring to my therapist, who intentionally harms people. He does it for fun. I think there are therapists that do their best, but don’t have the skills. You have to be picky and keep going until you find somebody that you feel is a fit, and that hears you and gets it.
Anne: I’m always concerned, especially when it comes to abuse. Like you might talk to clergy or friends, and the automatic thing everyone says is they don’t understand it’s abuse. Also, even if they know it’s abuse, they don’t know that you shouldn’t go to couple therapy or therapy about it.
Immediately they’re like, well, therapy solves everything. And I want to caution people about that idea. Therapy can be really helpful for some things. Being an abuse victim, there’s not necessarily something wrong with you. In your case, you went to therapy to get help for something specific. That you wanted to change about yourself.
That is a good reason to go to therapy. But when someone hurts you, they’re messed up, not you. Therapy’s not the answer for everything, I guess. Sometimes you might need a friend or a hiking group. Thinking that there’s inherently something wrong with you in your situation. That therapy can solve it when there isn’t something wrong with you.
Finding Someone To Talk To That Understands Abuse
Anne: Sometimes I feel like people go in and the therapist finds something wrong with the person that wasn’t even there to begin with. Especially if they’re an abuse victim. Like, let’s talk about why you picked the, and you didn’t do anything to deserve to be treated that way. It’s almost a form of victim blaming in some ways.
Amy: I do, and that comes down to picking the right therapist, because I feel so much damage can be done. Especially if you’re not aware of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. But I feel so much healing can happen in just supporting you through it. Not saying you need to be here, but I want to walk alongside you through this journey. So if you look at it like that, I feel it can be beneficial.
The right therapist won’t make you feel at fault. You may get there at some point where you want to analyze things. But I think it’s good to have somebody walk alongside you who understands it. Friends and family hurt me over and over because they don’t get it. They don’t understand it.
They don’t relate to it. So almost everything they said to me was offensive. They would say things to me, like, “Well, why did you go back?” And just different questions along that line. And it was so painful, because I was already beating myself up with that same thing. I don’t know. And so, someone who understands it will be safer to talk to than someone who doesn’t understand.
Anne: Yeah, whether it be a therapist or not. Talking to someone who understands abuse Is the answer.
Challenges In Getting Help After Being Abused By A Therapist
Anne: It breaks my heart that women have to try therapist after therapist, after therapist, after therapist to find a safe one. I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because I didn’t want any woman to have to go through that heartbreaking process. Because you don’t always know right after the first session.
Also, many times when they find it’s abuse, therapists don’t have concrete ways of helping you. I created the Living Free Workshop, which I mentioned earlier, for that reason. But it’s hard. Because clergy, family and so many people don’t understand.
Amy: I’ll tell you, when you mentioned clergy, I just bristled. Because the other thing that we get a lot is that the abuser is just sinning. He’s just a sinner in need of help. I heard that about my own abuser, even though he was like a psychopath intentionally harming women over his entire career. So for me, I would shy away from going to a pastor or religious person. Because that’s often the approach they take, and that’s also damaging and re-traumatizing,
Anne: And if they’re going to try and get the “sinner” to repent. But then you’re still in proximity to that abuser, and he can just manipulate the whole situation.
Amy: Right, I just wouldn’t recommend it. They don’t have the training to properly help a woman in that situation. And like you said, it’s going to be more about well, can you forgive them? They’re just sinning and they’re broken. Well, no, they intentionally choose to hurt someone.
Needing To Reach Out For Help & Finding Safety
Amy: For me, I was not able to escape on my own. I tried and tried, and I didn’t want to tell anyone else because I was embarrassed. And I didn’t think they’d understand, but it just kept me there longer. I couldn’t break the emotional tie either. He would guilt me and manipulate me. So you need to reach out for help.
However, the first person I reached out to for help blamed me and took the abuser’s side. And it crushed me so much that I stayed longer. So you have to tell and continue to tell until you’re heard. It’s so devastating when we reach out for help, and we’re not believed, blown off, or blamed. We give up altogether.
Anne: I absolutely agree. We hear that a lot here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. That women have been to therapist after therapist or talk to their clergy. You do the right thing. every time you reach out. Even if you get shut down, which is devastating.
Finally, when they come here, they’re like, “Oh, yes.” It’s because we get it immediately. But I want to praise them for continuing to try to get help. Then when they find us, I’m so glad, because I’m like, we’re here. We’re here for you.
Amy, thank you so much for being so brave and sharing your story. So that other victims can relate with it and hopefully learn something together. Thank you so much for sharing.
Amy: Yes, thank you for having me.
The Best Way To Heal After Emotional Abuse
Dec 03, 2024
If you’re wondering how to get back to yourself after emotional abuse, listen to how Anne Blythe, M.Ed. came back to herself through writing, exercise, and boundaries.
Transcript: How To Get Back To Yourself After Emotional Abuse
Anne: A few years ago, I was doing an interview for The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. There was this freaky Friday situation. and the guest started interviewing me. I wanted to replay a portion of that episode for you today.
Juliane: What are some steps you’re taking and have taken that have helped you regain your own sense of balance?
Healing Through Writing After Emotional Abuse
Anne: I’m a writer. Writing has been healing for me. I wrote every abuse episode that I could think of. Every instance of gaslighting. Every instance of emotional or psychological abuse helped me sort out what was real, what wasn’t real. It was like a hundred pages. It was crazy. When I started using that as a draft to write my book, because I want to give people concrete examples. I was so sick of my own story.
I thought that was a good sign after emotional abuse. So instead of thinking, I have to prove that he was abusive, which is how I felt before. Now that I’m healed more, I don’t need to process that anymore. Now I’m deleting huge sections out of it, because now I’m thinking, which examples will help other women?
Juliane: And you don’t have to prove why it was so crazy making for you.
Anne: Yeah, totally.
Reclaiming Physical Health After Emotional Abuse
Anne: My no contact boundary is actually the most helpful thing to me. Because any interaction with him is insane, focusing on my own physical health has been good. I’ve always been really athletic, and everything went out the window the moment I married him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZj_YL19POM
I didn’t ski anymore or mountain bike anymore. And I didn’t row anymore. I didn’t do any of the things I love doing. And now I’m getting back to that after emotional abuse. So I’m doing yoga every day and I’m weightlifting again. I may work at the ski resort the weekends when my kids are gone.
Juliane: I love that phrase, by the way, coming back to myself.
Anne: Yeah, and part of that was the abuse. And also part of it is that I have three kids under the age of six, and getting out of the house is really hard. They’re getting older now. My youngest was eleven months old when he was arrested. Time has helped a lot, too. It took a lot of time to process.
Emotional Struggles & Support
Anne: In fact, I just went through a pretty hard period. I went off my antidepressant, and decided I wasn’t emotionally eating anymore. So there’s about a month where I was crying every day. I mean, really bad, in the shower. At church, finding a room where no one was, and locking myself in there. Sitting on the floor, full on bawling my head off about everything that had happened.
Because I didn’t have the crutch of food anymore, and I didn’t have my antidepressant. So there were some feelings that I hadn’t quite felt. My sister was worried about me. So was everyone else. I was like, guys, I’m gonna be okay.
https://youtu.be/yu4b-nA3gaM
I just need to feel this right now. I’m not going to eat popcorn, and I’m not going to eat Oreos. I’m not going to take an antidepressant. I just need to feel these feelings that I was not ready to feel years ago because it was too much. It would have killed me if I had to feel everything simultaneously.
So I used an antidepressant for years, and I ate a lot and gained a lot of weight. Which is fine. Both of those things are fine. Do it if that helps you.
Navigating Single Motherhood After Emotional Abuse
Anne: Now I’m stronger. Knowing even if you’re making progress, be gentle with yourself. Because women, at least in my situation, have all kinds of problems. We have financial problems. What will we do for work?
Juliane: A woman working with three children that are young on her own. I mean a round of applause for all the single working moms out there. It’s so hard to do that alone. Then, you’ve got these multiple betrayal traumas. That impacts you emotionally, psychologically, and physically.
Anne: And they were coming from therapists. My clergy took his side. And friends, family, when I say family, I mean his family. This is not a small thing.
Anne: Because I knew that feeling these emotions is important for me now. Women are strong, and they’re smart. We can think rationally through those decisions and make the right decision for you. And one of them might be, oh, I feel good. But now I realize my brain is imbalanced, and now I’m going on an antidepressant.
Juliane: Absolutely, it’s there for a reason, and it wouldn’t work if we didn’t need it. Some women need it right away because of the trauma symptoms they’re having. I can’t eat, I can’t sleep, you know, the constant worry, fear and anxiety.
And I’ve also seen fear get women through that period, because of all the adrenaline cortisol pumping through their system. It kind of keeps them on high alert, and they can get through the crisis. But a year or two years out, they kind of notice they’re slipping into depression and then need some support at that time.
Therapy Challenges After Emotional Abuse
Anne: Absolutely. Yeah, I am not anti-medication. I just want to make that clear to everybody. Please go on it if you need it. This is where I’m at right now.
Juliane: Well, kudos to you for all the hard work you’re doing and for the place you’re in. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is taking what harmed you and turning it around. To provide support, encouragement and resources for other hurting women out there. When I went through this, I never really bought into the co-dependency, co-addict model. It has impacted many women, and not for good. When I went through this, BTR helped so much.
Anne: That’s one reason I wanted to start Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It was to talk about all these important issues in one place. Because I was not seeing that in a typical 12-step group or a typical therapist’s office. Oftentimes traditional therapy that tries to get to the heart of, “why he doesn’t feel loved” or whatever. Rather than recognizing, wait a minute, he is loved. He can’t feel love because of his misogynistic attitude. And his feelings of entitlement and those aren’t going away.
The Importance Of Emotional Safety
Anne: The more therapy he does, the more he feels like he’s a victim. So I always like to warn people. You don’t want to give an abuser a shovel by having him go to therapy. Where he creates a story for why he has an abusive character. Because he’s just going to dig his trench even deeper. Because we see all the time, therapy fuels his entitlements and feelings of being a victim. It makes it worse for the wife.
That’s why at Betrayal Trauma Recovery helping women be emotionally safe is the top priority. And that could look like many things.
Juliane: Right, this is a woman who is violated. And there’s no sense of safety. So safety is of the utmost importance.
Anne: Yeah, and at BTR that’s actually the bulk of what we see. That therapists don’t assess emotional safety first, and if they do, and the woman isn’t emotionally safe. They propose things like, share your feelings with the abuser. Or let’s communicate better with him, and that is dangerous.
Court System Challenges After Emotional Abuse
Anne: It’s like the civil court system. A friend of mine is going through divorce with an extremely abusive man. She can’t talk to him without being psychologically abused and blamed. That sort of thing. And in court, the judge said, Look, you guys are both professional people, work it out.
Juliane: Oh, gee.
Anne: There’s no way she can work it out with him. It’s impossible. So a therapist might think, Okay, you both seem intelligent. You both seem nice, let’s work together. And you’re thinking, we can’t coordinate or cooperate about anything without me being harmed in the process. Every time I try to communicate or resolve something, I end up gaslit and taken advantage of.
Many people, lawyers, court people, clergy, and therapists, don’t have safety as the top priority. That has to be the top priority when any type of emotional or psychological abuse is involved.
Juliane: Absolutely, we can’t have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy individual.
Anne: Thank you. That was fun to be interviewed for a little bit.
Juliane: Anne, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a joy and delight. I feel like I could talk another couple hours with you, but thank you so much. I want to applaud you for all your work and how you’re giving back to women through this podcast. And kudos to you for writing your book and giving up buckets of popcorn. I wish you all the best.
Anne: Thank you.
How ‘Pray for His Attitude’ Became the New Gaslighting
Nov 26, 2024
If you’re searching for a prayer for husband to change, you’re not alone. And you’re not wrong for wanting things to be better. But if that prayer is your only strategy? You might be stuck in something called spiritual bypass.
5 Things to Consider as You Say a Prayer for Your Husband to Change
1. Prayer isn’t a magic spell. God hears your prayers. But He also gave your husband free will. If your husband is choosing to lie, cheat, gaslight, or emotionally abuse you, God won’t force him to stop. That’s not how agency works.
2. “Pray harder” can keep you stuck. When spiritual leaders or loved ones say, “Just have more faith” or “You’re not a victim, you’re a co-creator”, that’s not helpful—it’s spiritual bypass. It minimizes real harm and leaves you powerless.
3. You’re allowed to be angry. Anger is not a lack of faith. It’s a healthy signal. Suppressing it with spiritual clichés only delays the healing process.
4. God is not the one abusing you. If you feel far from God in your marriage, it might be because your husband’s lies are in the way. Not your faith. Not your “attitude.” Real intimacy with God begins when you stop pretending everything is fine.
5. Safety Should be The #1 Goal, Since Changing Your Husband is Out of Your Control You don’t need to wait for a miracle to get safe. You can start building emotional clarity and strength now, even if he never changes.
Transcript: What Does Spiritual Bypass Mean? What You Need To Know
Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s podcast. Her name is Tracy, and she is a passionate advocate for betrayed wives. Discovering her husband’s addiction set her on a course of education about betrayal trauma, abuse, spirituality, and healing. Tracy is a devoted mother of four children, a compassionate friend, and an avid runner. Mountains and lakes are her happy place. Mountains and lakes are also my happy place, so we have that in common.
We’re going to start by talking about spiritual bypass. I think the main issue is abusers used spiritual bypass, clergy or even therapists to build up abusers and keep victims trapped by suggesting that the solution is just a prayer for husband to change. That’s why there are so many effects of spiritual abuse as well.
Understanding What Spiritual Bypass Means
Tracy: Absolutely. I’ll just give an example for myself. So my first D-Day was a month after I married. It was very traumatic, very, very traumatic. I didn’t know that I was in trauma. I didn’t know anything about trauma. There was so much I didn’t know. I didn’t have any support system or any real education.
So basically, all I knew was that I was in so much pain, in such a place of darkness. The only way out, it took me two or three days, I don’t remember. Truly being in this dark, dark pit before I realized the only way out was God. And so I went to God in prayer and said, I cannot keep feeling this. I felt like it was going to kill me.
Thinking, “I need to forgive my husband, but don’t know how to forgive him?” I am incapable of forgiving him, but I want to forgive him. And I know you can help me immediately. The darkness lifts, and I fill up with incredible comfort, warmth and peace. Now, I wasn’t healed from trauma. Of course, I didn’t understand trauma or what it meant to thoroughly heal from trauma.
Recognizing Spiritual Bypass Helps Victims of Betrayal and Abuse
Here’s where spiritual bypass can get tricky. Because while that worked for me at that time and helped me, ultimately it kept me stuck in the trauma. It didn’t help me to better understand it or to come to a better understanding of my situation.
I want to compare that now to my second D-Day, about 15 years in. I found out that this was going on my entire marriage regularly. That obviously my husband had been lying constantly about it, and hiding it. Then all those pieces start to fit together. That explains so much of my experience in this marriage that I did not understand.
That happened on a Sunday night, I still remember it late at night. We were in bed talking. And as he began to disclose the reality, my situation started to descend upon me, as I came to terms with that.
Aftermath Of Second D-Day & Not Knowing What Spiritual Bypass Means
Tracy: I didn’t sleep that night. I think I fell asleep at 6 a.m. and slept for one hour.
And I said, I will not do this again. Because I realized I’d only been through one big cycle of this. I could see that handling it the way I did the first time wasn’t going to cut it. All that was going to do was set me up for more D-Days, and more D-Days, and more D-Days.
And so my whole approach to healing was different than that first time.
This was not going to be an event or an arrival. This was going to be a long process. I was going to let myself feel angry for as long as I needed to feel angry.
Why Is Spiritual Bypass Harmful To Victims Of Betrayal?
Tracy: You know, it’s interesting because I felt more betrayed by God after the first D-Day than the second. I don’t know what it was, but something after that second D Day, I instinctively knew some truths right away. And one of them was that this isn’t God. God did not betray me here. My husband did. And I realized that many things started fitting into place quickly. One of those was God was there for me all along.
Tracy: The lesson I learned was actually good and true. From the first experience, God is real.
He was warning me. After that first D-day, I would pray to know if my husband was honest with me or if my husband’s lying to me. And I always thought that since I could never find evidence, or my husband would never admit anything, I guess that meant he was telling me the truth because God wasn’t putting something in my lap, right?
Protecting Myself From Spiritual Bypass
Like throwing the evidence out in front of me. But in reality, I knew in my gut that something was wrong for years. And I knew after that second D-day, God was talking to me all along. It’s not God’s fault. It’s my husband’s fault. My husband interfered with my relationship with God.
I was a spiritual person before I married. I came to my spirituality as a kid. And strengthened it as a youth and that was always a strong point for me. It was strange for me that after I married my spirituality started to decline. And I started to feel more distant from God. And I couldn’t figure out why. Because I was doing all of the same things I’d always done.
My heart turned towards God. I wanted that relationship, but I couldn’t figure out why I was feeling so distant. And I would come up with reasons. Well, maybe it’s because I’ve had kids now and I don’t have the time to pray the same way I used to. I don’t have the time to spend as much time in the scriptures as I used to. So I guess I’m not prioritizing right. Because motherhood is difficult, but that wasn’t the reason.
Caution & Prayer
Tracy: I was careful and cautious about marrying. I didn’t want to just make a rash decision. And I was very prayerful about it. I studied the subject and ultimately I decided, okay, I love this guy. No, I’ve got to take a leap of faith, step into the darkness. So, you know, I said, yes.
Engagement Doubts & Red Flags
Tracy: Well, I started to feel uneasy during our engagement, like something was off. There were various things that happened in a relatively short period during our engagement. That really moved me to confront my husband and ask if he had ever had any issues with pornography.
And he looked me in the eye and he said, no, never. And I may have asked one follow up question. He maintained, no, never. I didn’t push it. I just accepted his answer, but I still had these feelings of uneasiness. My best friend, at the time, was also engaged.
She was also feeling kind of uneasy. We were like, is this normal? Is this just like engagement jitters? But we didn’t want to be like that crazy girl who likes to give back the ring, right? And changes her mind and goes back and forth. And so we made a pact with each other, me and my friend. That if we started to feel that uneasiness, we wouldn’t act on it unless it stayed with us for more than 24 hours.
Because it might just come and go, the butterflies. And actually, I also prayed about that. I said to God, I understand that this might be normal feelings of anxiety or whatever. So I’m not going to take them seriously unless they stay with me for more than 24 hours.
Then I hope that means this is serious. At one point, they did stay with me more than 24 hours. But still, I didn’t have any reason why something should be off. I didn’t have anything to point to.
Marriage Decision & Spiritual Bypass
Tracy: So I went to my Dad, who I love and is a wonderful, wonderful man, full of lots of goodness and wisdom. But, he basically just talked me out of my feelings.
And he convinced me that I was being silly and too emotional. He said, “Your fiance is a great guy.” He’s got great career ambitions. He’s going to take good care of you. And he loves you. There’s no reason not to marry him. Spiritual bypass again. After, I found out a month into marriage. Which, the way I found out, is because my husband lost his job. He was caught using it at work.
It was awful. But I did briefly feel betrayed by God. I was like, I prayed about this, I asked about this. But again, through spiritual bypass, I let go of all those feelings. Well, after my second D-Day, 15 years in, when I tried to put all the pieces back together and make sense of it. I realized God answered my prayer.
Tracy: I knew in my gut that something was off. I can trust my gut. And I can trust God. I realize my husband is the one lying to me. My Dad talked me out of my feelings when I went to him, saying I feel like something is off. I’m nervous.
I’ve never had to work through a intense or long lasting feeling of betrayal by God. I’ve realized he’s been with me. It’s people getting in the way.
Spiritual Bypass And Answers To Prayer
Tracy: I want to add one quick thing I would encourage women to consider is that sometimes we may get an answer, right? Maybe, this was not my experience. I did not get a definitive, yes, marry this guy. That was not my experience. But some women I have talked to say they have had that experience.
And so they feel betrayed when they find out. That’s understandable. Like, sometimes we can get an answer to something, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the answer for the rest of our lives.
Things can change. People can still make choices that change circumstances. I like to think about life as not something totally planned out. Where God is pulling these puppet strings. But rather, those change-your-ending books.
Choices Mean Endings Change & God Doesn’t Want Abuse
Tracy: I don’t know if you ever had any of those. But you would start to read the story, and then there was a choice that you would have to make. Then depending on that choice, you would skip to a certain point in the book. And then you’d come to another choice. So depending on the choices made, the ending of the story would change.
So, based on the circumstances of something right now, I can pray about something and get an answer that is good for me right now. But tomorrow, my husband can make a choice that changes circumstances, and my answer may then change if I pray again. Does that make sense?
Anne: It does. Because many women think back to that answer and be like, but I’m supposed to be with him.
So instead of saying, okay. I need to set this boundary, because I’m not safe. They think God wants me to be abused, which is a form of spiritual bypass. That’s never the answer. God never wants you to be abused, ever. So if you’re trying to sort that out. I’m telling you here, hopefully this is inspiration for you, that God does not want you to be abused regardless of what answers you had from prayers in the past.
The Logical Decision To Marry
Anne: I agree completely. For me, I never asked whether I should marry my ex-husband. But I definitely felt like it was the logical right decision, which I made happily. And now looking back, I don’t know if I would have received an answer, but I can see that my life’s work would not be possible without him.
He introduced me to everything I needed to know, to run Betrayal Trauma Recovery and to continue to run BTR. So I’m actually super grateful for the experiences. Because I would never do what I do now without the experiences he gave me. Which were all horrific, but also now I have a PhD in evil.
Discovering Spiritual Bypass In Abusive Behaviors
Anne: Let’s talk about how spiritual bypass is problematic for a man exhibiting abusive behaviors.
Tracy: So my husband, leading up to that second big D-Day, threw himself into spirituality. He was becoming involved in our church community, very service oriented. And was reading the scriptures for like a certain amount of time every day.
He was, on his commutes to work. He was listening to sermons and keeping track in his little calendar journal, of acting out points. And he convinced himself that this was all serving him well. Because he had longer periods of abstinence between acting out events than ever before in his life.
He was going a whole two weeks between acting out, for a period of months. And he was convincing himself, because he was doing all these things, that he was progressing. But did they actually help him progress? No.
He fooled himself into thinking he was making progress. But he still lived in lies, secrecy, and abusing me. See, he told himself, no, this is good. Because I will tell what’s been going on after I’ve like six months or a year of sobriety under my belt. And it will be this awesome thing, and she’ll be so excited for me.
But the thing is, he was just spiritual bypassing me and keeping me stuck in abuse.
Spiritual Bypass Means A False Sense Of Recovery
Tracy: In about the period of one to two years post that second D-Day, he was exhibiting another form of spiritual bypass. He was doing all of the right things on paper for recovery. He’d done a formal disclosure. He had gone to a 12-step group, and was still going to it. He’d done the repentance process through our ecclesiastical leader. He was doing all of these right things, but that was just it. He thought that he was done.
Like, that’s all taken care of, so can we just put a bow on it and lock it up in the closet and never talk about it again? This is just another example of how he used spiritual bypass. So addicts can even use “working recovery” as a form of bypass. Where they convince themselves that they’re doing so great, but they’re really not.
Anne: A lot of women are manipulated to ask, “Is he in recovery?” Because that answer can be manipulated to be yes with box checking. So victims are like, he’s in recovery because he goes to his weekly 12-step meeting and he’s going to therapy every week.
Emotional Safety vs. Recovery
I think it’s a hope of safety. Because if they’re attending a 12-step meeting and they’re attending therapy, then you’re not safe yet. But you’re hoping to be safe in soon. So instead of setting a boundary immediately and saying, okay, I need to get to safety now. And then watch from a safe distance to see if these abusive behaviors stop. You’re hoping that they’ll stop sometime in the future.
Tracy: Yeah, when we’re in that terrible trauma and we just want relief. It’s easy to latch on to the idea of there’s a cure or a fix or a place of arrival. Well, once my husband gets to this place, like this many years of recovery or whatever, then we’ll be good. This really will be all behind us.
Can Spiritual Bypass Mean Manipulation?
When I think about am I safe, it’s am I safe now? Am I safe to say, engage in this conversation? My question is not, am I safe to recommit to my husband that we’re going to be together forever, and divorce is never on the table? No, it’s am I safe right now to continue engaging in the relationship the way that I am right now?
Anne: Yeah, that makes much more sense. Figuring out if you should stay together after infidelity isn’t necessarily the most important thing. So let’s talk about some other examples. A man exhibiting abusive behaviors may use to manipulate his victim, in terms of spiritual bypass. It might be, “I used the atonement, Jesus took away my sins. What, you don’t believe in Jesus?”
They’re parading what seems to be their devotion to their religious beliefs as legitimate. In this case is simply taking the name of God in vain.
Tracy: Well, that’s spiritual abuse. Why haven’t you forgiven yet? Can’t you move on? Why are you being so un-Christ like? I mean, it’s just straight up spiritual abuse.
The day after my last D-Day, I was expressing how much pain I was in. He looked at me and said, I can’t tolerate this cruelty and walked away from me. Calling me cruel, suggesting that somehow I’m devoid of compassion, so I’m falling short of some spiritual standard. Me expressing my pain is actually a good healthy thing for me to be doing. It doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate.
Can Spiritual Bypass Mean Ecclesiastical Leaders Are Enabling Abuse?
Tracy: And this can happen with ecclesiastical leaders as well, both for the abuser and the victim. Bishops or pastors who tell men, well, you just need to pray this away using spiritual bypass. Praying alone is going to work. Or you need to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and then that will give you strength to overcome this.
Like, why haven’t you forgiven yet? You just need to forgive.
Anne: As if the forgiveness is the problem rather than the ongoing abuse.
Tracy: And that’s why we need to separate ourselves to a degree or to several degrees. To get a level of safety, but asking someone who is literally living in abuse. And being currently and continually harmed to just forgive as if that’s going to make them not be affected by the abuse.
Tracy: New Age teachings can go wrong too. It’s the same teaching. What you just said, the way we create our own reality, is a form of victim blaming. There is the teaching that everything we feel or experience originates with our own thoughts, so that we are creating our feelings with our thoughts. That nothing is happening to us from the outside.
That can be very victim blaming, and victim blaming is very dangerous because that will make it more difficult for them to find safety and heal.
So these are some common things you might hear. It happened for a reason. Nobody can hurt you without your consent. I wonder why you created this experience. It’s just your karma. There are no accidents, no victims. There are no mistakes. Don’t look back. What’s done is done. Don’t be a victim. Your feelings are an illusion. Be strong.
Debunking “We Create Our Own Reality”
We create our own reality, so you shouldn’t do that. You should not write or think about something so negative, or else you will draw negative things into your life. The faulty thinking is that somehow if our belief is strong enough, if our energy is high enough, like our vibration is high enough.
Then we will only attract good things, and we can somehow avoid attracting negative things that will bring us down. That’s magical thinking, because we exist within these human systems. And these natural systems that we don’t have control over everything within those systems. We can have the most positive thoughts, be kind, and take all kinds of precautions for our safety, and still be deceived, or still be victimized in another way.
Trauma symptoms are not the result of negative thoughts. New Age People think it happens like this. You have a negative thought, it leads to negative feelings and perceptions, which leads to bad things happening. But if I had been more skeptical and thought about negative potential consequences. It can help us do things within our power to help us stay safe. Recognizing that everything is not in our power, but there are some things that we can do to minimize risk.
Gratitude Doesn’t Keep You Safe From Abuse
Anne: This would be like if you feel anger, that’s a negative emotion, so you’re going to draw more anger to you. An idea like that. Rather than realizing anger is a gift to us that can help us take action to keep us safe.
Tracy: Absolutely. That’s at the core, recognizing we have great power within our humanity and within ourselves. There’s so much light within us, and if we tap into that, there’s so much empowerment there. And that’s great, but that we also have limitations.
Learning to disassociate and fooling ourselves into believing that’s transcendence. That we’re beyond pain. But that’s not the point. We’re not meant to transcend the human experience.
Gratitude Is Not The Cure-All For Abuse: Understanding The Meaning
Anne: It reminds me of a lunch with a gratitude coach. she wants to partner with BTR and at this lunch, she said, “If you can be super grateful, then any experience you go through is beneficial to you, useful to you. And I was like, that’s not helpful women stuck in this abusive situation, and all they’re trying to do is be grateful for their situation. And what it’s teaching them, rather than actually getting to safety.
So I told her this would never be a good fit for my audience. Although it’s good when you’re in trauma to see the things worth being grateful for. You know, y I’m grateful that I have food today. I’m grateful that I don’t have to sleep on the street. I’m grateful that I have a blanket that I enjoy. You don’t have to say, I’m so grateful to be in this abusive situation.
Tracy: No. No, you don’t. In fact, there’s power in recognizing that you’re not grateful to be in that situation.
Toxic Positivity & Its Dangers
Tracy: This is a common thing, is this toxic positivity, which is the excessive or ineffective overgeneralization of a happy and optimistic state all the time. Denial, minimization, and invalidation of genuine emotional human experience. So, that would manifest as hiding what we feel behind a positive front. Dismissing our emotions and feeling guilty for the negative emotions we feel. Minimizing other people’s experiences.
Trying to distract them from what they’re feeling, encouraging ourselves or others to reframe their experience. Which, that’s not always a bad thing. Sometimes that can be very helpful, but we have to be mindful of timing. And then also shaming others for feeling negative emotions.
When I was in serious trauma. I just found out about everything that had been going on in my marriage for 15 years a month before. So something triggers me, and I cry, and I left the room because I was with family. I was with extended family, my parents, and a sister and, you know, her family, and it was embarrassing.
I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, so I left the room. But I could not stop crying, just sobbing. And my Mom followed me, and she said, “You know Tracy, you just need to put a smile on your face for the sake of your children.” And that was not helpful.
The Need For Safety & Stability
Tracy: So now I’m a bad mom because I’m crying in front of my children? And I had no control over that trigger in that moment. The trauma was too fresh. It was too recent. Not only was it not helpful, it was also very shaming. Also, she told me in the same conversation, “You just need to put the past in the past and look to the future”.
Anne: Let’s skip right to, Oh, put on your happy, positive attitude about it and everything will be okay. But if you keep crying, then it’s for sure not going to be okay. But that is another way of telling a victim it’s her fault. A month after you don’t know if it really is in the past.
Tracy: You’re still living it. Yeah, I was still not safe. She wanted me to skip healing. She wanted me to pretend nothing was wrong. Whereas what I needed was safety and stability. And after I’d found safety and stability, I need to go through the long, messy process of grieving to go back to the past. And acknowledge it, validate it and feel what we need to feel.
Pressure To Move On & By Using Spiritual Bypass
We have this societal intolerance, this cultural intolerance for feelings of helplessness and loss of control, which leads to victim blaming. People who have an inability to tolerate their own difficult emotions are not capable of tolerating the pain and suffering in others.
So, they’re impatient for us to just move on, or just pretend everything’s fine. Victims remind us of our own vulnerability. If she was victimized, I could be victimized, and that’s scary. So I pretend she wasn’t victimized, she just made a bad choice, or she just put herself in a bad situation.
And so if I cannot make that same bad choice or put myself in that situation like she did, I won’t have to feel helpless.
Victim Blaming & Self-Blame
Tracy: Victim blaming is a convenient way to avoid taking responsibility for our own actions if we have played a part. So often, abusers will do this, or people who have contributed to secondary trauma, exacerbated the trauma. They’ll continue to blame the victim because it’s a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own part and the victim’s pain or injuries.
And then also that there’s self-blame that happens oftentimes. Where we as victims desiring a sense of control, blame ourselves. Because then we’re like, well, if I had just done this, then that wouldn’t have happened. So, if I can change the way that I am or the things that I do going forward, then this won’t happen to me again.
And we see this oftentimes, I think, in a betrayal trauma community. They’re safety seeking behaviors, essentially. It’s, if I am just the perfect wife in all of these different ways, then he won’t betray me again.
Anne: In some 12-step circles, women are told you have to keep coming to 12-step meetings for the rest of your life or this will happen to you again.
Tracy: Yeah, as if doing that has any bearing whatsoever on his choices. Like it doesn’t.
Anne: I think it’s ironic because they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They’ll be like, you have no control over him, but this will happen to you again if you don’t keep coming to meetings the rest of your life. I’m like, what?
Tracy: It doesn’t make sense. Like, you can’t have all of these things be absolutes at the same time.
Perception Vs. Reality
Anne: Rather than thinking, how can I change my inner thoughts so that I can change reality, I think if victims are most interested in truth. What is the truth? In our case, what we’ve been perceiving incorrectly is that we’re in a relationship with a really good guy, who has a few small problems rather than the reality that he is an abusive person.
Is it true? Regardless of how he looks at church, regardless of how good of a provider he is, are these behaviors that I’m experiencing abuse?
Tracy: Yes, exactly.
Positive Thinking As A Form Of Spiritual Bypass
Tracy: More important than positive thinking. Because while positive thinking can be helpful sometimes, it can keep us in dangerous situations.
I know a woman who experienced incredible betrayal trauma. A very sad story. And a friend wanted to be helpful. Let me help you reframe this experience to just look for the positive, imagine the good that can come of this.
That’s not what she needs right now. Because I knew enough about her situation that what she needed was safety. She was not safe. Immediately jumping to, what are the lessons? Or what are the blessings that could come from this?
Worst Case Scenario: Abuse & Minimization
Anne: Everyone wants a happy, safe marriage. And so women have already been operating on that for years, where they’re like, okay, he can change. I will be patient as he changes. I will believe in Christ’s atonement. So they’re saying, I will be patient. Because I want this positive outcome. But when it comes to abuse, the worst case scenario is not divorce.
You’re currently in the worst case scenario, abuse. And nothing will feel good. There’s nothing that’s going to feel peaceful. There’s nothing that’s going to feel right when it comes to abuse. Every effort you make to work towards safety will feel like, ugh, I don’t want to do this.
Tracy: Truthful thinking is often painful. The reality of our situations hurts. So, it is tempting to minimize the pain of it and pretend it’s not as bad as it is.
Post-Traumatic Growth Vs. Spiritual Bypass
Tracy: For me, allowing myself to feel as broken as I was, that’s a starting place. And then diving into learning to have more compassion for myself. And giving myself grace for the things I’d been through. Where I had been victimized, and then integrating the story. So it’s like I can think back on my story, even the story I’m in right now, still, and not feel ashamed of it.
Not feel this intense pain about it. It’s part of who I am now, and I wouldn’t be who I am now if I hadn’t been through that. This new humility where because I feel so much compassion for myself, it naturally extends to others.
I just feel compassion for all my fellow human beings, whatever struggles they’re going through. It’s changed my perspectives on almost everything. It affected basically every part of my life.
Using Spiritual Bypass Means Post Traumatic Growth Isn’t Possible
Tracy: Surround yourself with safe people who can be patient with you, who can see you up close and personal, and not turn away.
Anne: I think when women realize they were a victim. They don’t have to go to 12-step for the rest of their lives. There is no way to heal using spiritual bypass. There’s nothing they did or can do that would have avoided it. And then learning new skills, learning new things about themselves. This can be a reason to learn and grow more.
Trigger Warning: Positive Post
Tracy: Exactly. And it’s not a straight and narrow path. It’s a long, winding, loop de loop kind of path. When I was in deep trauma, it was difficult for me to hear overly positive reflections on betrayal trauma from people at the other end of the tunnel. It felt painful and unrealistically optimistic. Like I couldn’t trust that these women were actually at peace with all that had happened. And I resented they were not giving justice to the pain they had endured.
For me, for hope to feel legitimate, I have to hear and feel how dark it was before. If I just see an after picture, then I doubt the reality of the before picture. I have to see them side by side to fully appreciate and trust the miracle of the healing that has taken place.
Not everyone here knows my story, or is witness to the depths of the pain and trauma I have experienced. The hopelessness, fear, confusion, paralysis, anger, loneliness, anxiety, depression, and deep sorrow. I do not ever want to minimize the pain and trauma of anyone, by glossing over the struggle and only celebrating the healing.
Growth From Betrayal Trauma
Because the struggle is real, and it is hard. And I believe in honoring the moment we are in, and the emotions that we are feeling. Because doing that is a key part of finding genuine peace and healing. But it’s hard to accept and honor where we’re at from a place of self compassion and love if we feel that others are not honoring it with us.
Tracy: So, please know that I still hold a place for those of you in the depths of the struggle. It’s okay to struggle. It’s okay to feel whatever you are feeling. And I don’t judge you for any of it. I see you and I love you. So, after that lengthy disclaimer, I can finally say that I am grateful for my betrayal trauma.
I woke up at 5 a.m. after a disturbing dream and couldn’t go back to sleep. And I was lying in bed and realized that I am grateful for it. I never thought I’d get to this point. I wasn’t sure if I ever even wanted to get to this point. But I am here, and I am glad.
I am grateful for the person I am becoming because of what I have experienced. And I like me. I have learned things and grown in ways I am not sure I could have without experiencing the trauma of betrayal. Does this mean I would go back and choose to do this again? I don’t know. I’m not sure.
Does it mean I would wish anyone else to be blessed with betrayal trauma? Hell no. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Does it mean God predestined me to be betrayed by my husband, assigning this trial to me? No, I don’t believe that for a second.
The Good & Bad Of Betrayal
Tracy: He hasn’t condemned me for missing those warnings. He has loved me and helped me learn from the experience. And through the experience, I have learned that he wants me to be safe and to know happiness, and I have learned how to trust and rely on him to keep me safe and at peace. And if I miss another warning and fall into darkness again, he will be there to lift me up and guide me back to light and healing.
None of the good that has resulted for me through this trauma takes away from the bad. I view them side by side. If I didn’t give full validation to the bad, I wouldn’t fully appreciate the good. Why would I want to cheat myself of greater joy by glossing over or denying the darkest parts of my journey?
I will do my best to honor whatever moment I am in, knowing that things can always be changing. And I am not defined by any one moment. I don’t have to feel sad, or lonely, or angry forever. Just as I don’t expect to feel happy and positive all the time for the rest of my life either. The beauty is in the flow.
Choosing To Be Safe Over Spiritual Bypass
And I think the gratitude and joy that we can feel if we allow it to come naturally, as opposed to chasing it is more genuine. That’s my experience. It was not helpful for me growing up as a child in a culture and family where I was constantly told I needed to choose to be happy. To choose not to let things bother me, and that I just needed to smile more. The ultimate spiritual bypass.
It wasn’t helpful. It didn’t help me to be a happy kid. And in trauma, when I was legitimately a victim of a terrible thing, it was re-traumatizing and therefore actually stunted me a little bit. Until I recognize what goes on and set boundaries around people who were not safe.
First of all, my own experience growing up, there was an absolute aversion to the word “feminist”, to the point that I never did any learning about it, I accepted that feminism was a bad thing. I grew up hearing the word feminazi used by people close to me. Which is a really derogatory, mean thing to say.
Even in my adulthood, when I started opening myself up a little bit to some ideas in feminism, I thought, is there another term we can use? Is there another term? Is there another word we can use? But now, I have come to embrace and love the word. I consider myself a feminist. Not just a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist.
Feminism Vs. Spiritual Bypass
Let’s see what Sarah Bessey says about it. She says, page 13 of her book, Feminism is complicated, and it varies for each person, much like Christianity. It’s not necessary to subscribe to all the diverse and contrary opinions within feminism to call oneself a feminist. God is the source of truth.
Christians can still thank God for the good works associated with feminism, such as the gaining of status for women as persons under the law. Voting, owning property, and defending themselves in a court of law against domestic violence and rape. As Canadian theologian John D. Stackhouse, Jr. says, Christian feminists can celebrate any sort of feminism that brings more justice and human flourishing to the world.
No matter who is bringing it, since we recognize the hand of God in all that is good. Modern Christian feminism is alive and well, from social justice movements to seminaries and churches to suburban living rooms worldwide.
The Radical Notion Of Equality
Tracy: At the core, feminism simply consists of the radical notion that women are people too.
Anne: I was talking to someone about it. They were uncomfortable about the word feminist. And they said, well, I just don’t want it to swing too far. And I said, the pendulum cannot swing too far on equality. Like what? That we always have to keep women a little below men. No, it can swing as far as it needs to swing. Currently speaking, women are not believed. Women are not taken seriously.
When they experience this extreme emotional and psychological abuse and oppression, they are blamed for it. If we talk about our experience, we shouldn’t talk about it in that way. And if we complain about it, we’re complaining too much about it. If we stay silent about it, we are in denial. There’s no way right now to appropriately protest it without being blamed in some way.
Tracy: Right. Because it sounds radical.
Anne: Yeah, it sounds extreme, right? Oh, she’s using this word abuse. It’s not that extreme. And you’re like, no, that’s actually what it is. And I’m not being extreme. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think it can go too far when it comes to equality. So until women can be equally believed, as equally understood, as equally taken seriously. The pendulum has not swung far enough.
Tracy: I love Sarah Bessey, she names one of her chapters: “Jesus Made a Feminist Out of Me”
Feminism: Women Are Equal To Men
Tracy: This was part of the transformation, the post-traumatic growth. It was tapping into this truth. That society had been suppressing in me for most of my life leading up to that point. On page 111, she’s talking about a difficult experience for herself, which had to do with pregnancy, but for me, it was betrayal trauma.
And she says, but the truth remains, regardless of the circumstances unique to us. The voice of God has a habit of breaking through the noise of our lives, giving us a turning point. So that we mark the rest of our lives differently from that moment on. When we talk about these moments in our lives, we begin our stories with the words, and then everything changes.
And that was betrayal trauma. And I’m a feminist now. Jesus made a feminist out of me. That was a natural result of healing in my life. It was a result of stopping the spiritual bypass.
Anne: For women uncomfortable with this word feminist, I want you to consider who is telling you that feminists are bad? What is that about?
Tracy: It’s because it’s a disruption of the status quo. It infringes on power structures as they are. It’s a threat to patriarchy.
Patriarchy & Spiritual Bypass
Tracy: I agree, though, with Sarah when she says patriarchy is not God’s dream for humanity. For a while, even after I began to embrace feminism. I still was like, but is there a way to make it work within patriarchy?
Is there a way that patriarchy is still the right way and like, and we just have to tweak this or tweak that? And ultimately, no, I believe that patriarchy is the result of the fall, like that’s not how God intended men and women to interact.
You can’t vote, you have no say in how the laws are actually written that affect you. Results in a terrible, terrible experience for women and girls. But I would say it’s not healthy for boys and men either. Like, it’s not what God intended. It also sets these strict gender roles. I don’t think they’re helpful to men either.
It’s comfortable for them because it was made to be more comfortable for them, but it’s still not the way God intended it.
Can Spiritual Bypass Mean Oppressive Gender Roles?
Anne: So you’ve got the class in charge, men. They can define these roles. So they want to define the situation that is the most comfortable for them. And so they’re telling women, well, you would be most comfortable if you acted like this. If you did this, rather than letting the women have a voice. The most logical way of doing a partnership with a husband and wife, would be, okay, we’re going to marry.
Let’s sit down and talk about each of our talents. What are the things we enjoy and what are the things we’re good at? So I might say, I’m good at yard work. I’m excellent at gardening. I love being outdoors. I’m not so good at cooking and organizing food. That’s just not one of my talents. It’s not something I’m interested in, right? And then he would say, okay, these are the things I like. I also like being outdoors. I also like doing yard work.
Great. We can do that together. And I also don’t like cooking. At that point where there’s this thing that’s like, huh, we both don’t like cooking, then the answer is not, well, you’re the girl. So you have to do it. This is a form of spiritual bypass. The answer is, huh, interesting. Neither of us like it that much. How will we manage these household tasks that need to be done?
So this idea that women must do basic household tasks. Like laundry, cooking, cleaning and stuff like that. Because a human isn’t capable of doing basic self care things. And having talents, exploring their talents, and doing anything else is ridiculous.
But everyone should be free to explore their own talents and what they’re good at. And what they’re interested in, and also be able to do regular household tasks. A person’s mission in life should not be just basic household tasks that everyone needs to know how to do.
Tracy: Right, and if both the husband and the wife approached marriage in that way. Approached life in that way, then they could work that out together and form some sort of equilibrium. But forcing people into these specific gender roles, there are plenty of men who don’t feel comfortable being shoehorned in that way either.
Anne: They don’t know how to fix the air conditioner. And so what do you do? You call an AC guy to fix your air conditioner. But then to say to a woman, well, you’re a woman, so you should be forced to cook.
Working Out Marital Tasks To Avoid Spiritual Bypass
Anne: It’s like, no, you’re not forcing me to fix the air conditioner. So what can we do to work this out? There are so many other options. If we’re willing to accept that God created each of us as individuals with talents to do his work. He hasn’t just said all women I created you with one job, domestic labor. Sorry, it’s your only option.
Tracy: Once you move beyond, when her children are young and at home, women talk about feeling empty. Like, where’s my purpose anymore? How sad is that?
Anne: My Mom, she’s only worked outside the home for a very short time, but she’s very handy. She knows how to tile, she’s a kitchen designer, she does electrical and plumbing and all kinds of things. And she remodeled our house a ton. She’s helping me remodel my house right now. In fact, that is the construction you can hear in the background if you’ve heard any of it. My Mom is out hammering and finishing my basement right now.
She’s interested in construction. She loves it. Is she the best person at making dinner every night? No, that’s not one of her talents. But that doesn’t make her a bad mom. If she couldn’t explore her talents, and told to just be happy making dinner, that’s spiritual bypass.
Deciding Our Own Role & “Biblical” Womanhood
Anne: She’s an excellent, amazing mom, and loves construction. I’m grateful that even if she didn’t work in the construction industry, she could explore her talents. Even not working outside the home. So I’m not trying to say that women have to do it in a certain way or a way that they feel uncomfortable with. But having a man look at you and say, well, you have to clean the toilet because you’re a woman. That’s your job, is crazy.
Tracy: It is.
Anne: It can be anyone’s job.
Tracy: Yeah, she talks a lot about this in Chapter 6, Patron Saints, Spiritual Midwives, and “Biblical” Womanhood. She says, the phenomenon of being a stay at home mother is relatively new and unique to the prosperous. Right along with daycares to provide child care.
It’s a mark of our privilege to decide. Or to adjust our household budget to keep one parent at home full time with the children. I believe it is a worthy pursuit, good work, holy work. I hope so, it’s my own daily work. But it’s not the same thing as Biblical womanhood, is it?
If a woman can enjoy the title in Haiti, or even by the woman hailed in scripture. The same way it can be by a middle class woman in Canada, then Biblical womanhood must be more than this.
Jesus Defends Women’s Choices & Spiritual Bypass
Tracy: I love the example she gives of Mary in the story of Mary and Martha. I had never read this story before. Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus as a pupil. This is on page 19. She says, “The daughters had never had that spot. Even after Martha tried to remind her of her duties and responsibilities to their guests, Jesus defended her right to learn as his disciple.
He honored her choice as the better and said it will not be taken away from her.”
And what is she doing right there, but defying gender roles and cultural standards. Christ is honoring and encouraging her in that. So I never understood the story that way. Because in the church culture I grew up in, it was very much, no, to be a good woman, you do it this way. You fit this role, you think this way, you feel this way. You know spiritual bypass.
Anne: This is similar to spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Religion and society tell women As a strong woman, you should bypass painful things, right, spiritual bypass.
Benevolent Patriarchy And Spiritual Bypass
Anne: If you’re a real, true, righteous woman, then your husband wouldn’t be looking at porn, because your prayers would be powerful enough, and he wouldn’t want to do that. If you had enough faith in Jesus, you can create miracles in your family. There’s this intersection here between spiritual bypass and feminism.
Tracy: That actually reminds me of benevolent patriarchy, which is what exists in my church organization. It’s a, we’re going to put women on a pedestal. We’re going to talk them up. We’re going to talk about how wonderful they are, how spiritual they are, how incredible they are, how they are more inclined to righteousness than men are.
They don’t have to work as hard for it. It just comes more naturally to them. But we don’t want to hear what they have to say. We don’t want their unique experiences. Because if their unique experiences contradict what we’re saying their experience should be, they’re not valuable anymore.
Anne: They’re more spiritual and better, but they can’t be trusted to lead. This is spiritual bypass
Tracy: Exactly. It doesn’t make sense. It’s very much a, as long as you’re falling in line and holding up this system, then your voice is valuable. And we will let you speak.
But if that same woman says, well, this is my experience, and this is what God is teaching me. But it contradicts the status quo or infringes on the comfort of men. Then, suddenly, her voice is not valuable anymore. Suddenly, her access to the spirit must is impinged a form of spiritual bypass.
Asking Too Much & Holding Men and Women To The Same Standard
Anne: Wonky, she’s gone off the deep end. She’s a little cray cray. When women get labeled crazy or gone too far, usually it’s when they’re saying something that is right in line with church doctrine. So for example, most churches say abuse is wrong. But then they’ll be like, well, this woman is making this up, or she’s being too loud, or she’s talking about it in a way that’s not the right way. It’s like, but what I’m saying is exactly in line with what you profess to believe.
Tracy: Stepping outside the church for a minute, just into a secular place. That reminds me that we had the first wave of feminists with suffragettes, getting the right to vote.
Then we had the second wave feminists in the sixties and seventies. And then we had the third wave feminists a few decades later. We’re really just saying, look, we want to hold men to the same standard that we’ve been held to all along.
And men resisted that, society resisted that, and labeled the feminists as a problem.
Women In The Workforce
Anne: On that note, I want to talk about women in the workforce. So many women, when they divorce or are considering a job or something.
Many women think, okay, well, I want to be a therapist. Or they think, well, I’ll work at the library or at the school, or something that fits with, how can I be a mom? And I just want to shout out to women considering, how can you become more independent or use your talents better, or wha tever you feel like you need to do. There are so many needs for women in politics, in policing or in law, like becoming lawyers, becoming judges.
I want women to open their minds to like, you can do anything, and you can help the world in so many ways.
Pursuing Ambitions Despite Spiritual Bypass
Tracy: As a kid, I had all those kinds of ambitions. I remember wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher. Wanting to be an architect. I wanted to be a writer.
But as I got older, I forgot about all of that. Because at my core, I believed that I couldn’t. And because of the way it was talked about, it was the way it was modeled for me. I was told, yes, you need to go to college and get a degree, so that you can get a job if your husband gets hit by a truck someday. That’s literally what I was told. It wasn’t so that…
Anne: …so that you can fill the measure of your creation.
Tracy: Exactly. It was always a backup plan. Like I had all these ambitions, and yet I felt these limitations made it very difficult to actually pursue any of that.
Spiritual Bypass And The Struggle For Independence
Tracy: And I ended up doing what my culture told me to do, which was get married young. I barely graduated from college before my first baby was born. This is also a form of spiritual bypass. And didn’t get any real work experience, so although I have a degree, it’s sad. I feel embarrassed even talking about it, because it feels like a worthless piece of paper to me. Because I’ve never used it, and I have no serious career work experience.
I’ve had little jobs here and there. But I was not set up to think about my life in terms of, oh yes, I could pursue a career. Because that could be a fulfilling thing for me. And beyond that, so many women in our community, for sure, feel so trapped. It’s just another layer to the difficulty of their situations.
Because it’s difficult to see a way out when they have been financially dependent, and they feel so helpless. There are opportunities, and I love when women figure it out. But, oh, it adds so much more difficulty.
Anne: Like, let’s say now at 40, you decided you would go to law school, you could do that, right? But then you’re 15 years behind the man who went to law school at 25. So that’s what makes it difficult, but that doesn’t make it impossible.
It’s Never Too Late
Anne: Women may think they’ve lost they’re chance to do that thing that you feel like in your heart, you always wanted to do. It could be that you want to be a painter, literally like paint people’s houses, not like an artist. It could be that you want to run a yard care business. I don’t know, whatever you enjoy, it is not too late.
Will you be behind your male counterparts, who started when they were 25? Yeah, but I want women to know that if they start now with whatever they want to do. If they want to go to med school and finally graduate when they were 60, they could still be a doctor for 20 years from when they’re 60 to 80. You know, there’s always options. And I want women to realize that it’s not too late for you.
Tracy: I see women go through the struggle because it’s a struggle. But then I see them do it, it’s incredible to see. Also, it sets a wonderful example for your children.
Can Avoiding Spiritual Bypass Mean Honoring Choices?
Anne: Yeah, now that being said, so many women want to stay at home and I honor that choice as well.
I remember when I had my son and I was thinking about going back to work, because at the time my husband didn’t have a job. My son was nursing. And so just the thought of leaving him to work horrified me.
I did not want to do that. So I want to honor women who are like, no, no, I need to be with my children. This is what I need to do.
Supporting Women’s Choices
Anne: Because those things are important, and supporting women in their choices and what they feel they need to do in their lives. Our aim here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to support, validate, encourage, and be there for you regardless of what you choose.
We care about you and love you and validate you and want you to do what’s right for you, whatever that is.
Tracy: Yes, for women unfamiliar or a little uncomfortable with the idea of feminism.
You don’t have to align yourself politically with a particular brand of feminism to call yourself a feminist. There are pro-life feminists. If that’s an issue for some women. Yeah, just don’t be afraid of the word. There’s no shame in the word.
Women Deserve Peace & Safety
Anne: It can mean many things to many people, but the cool thing is you can define your own type of feminism. You can define the way you want to promote equal rights for yourself in your own life, and also for women throughout the world. It can help us overcome spiritual bypass.
This podcast more than anything is to help women come out of the fog of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And be able to live lives of peace and safety.
That is what women deserve.
Why is My Husband Constantly On His Phone? – The Research
Nov 19, 2024
Do you feel like something is “off” with your husband? If you’re asking, “Why is my husband constantly on his phone?” Here’s what couple therapists or clergy won’t tell you.
Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones are on the podcast talking about their groundbreaking research on how a husband’s pornography use affects his wife.
No Matter What He’s Doing On His Phone, You Can Choose Emotional & Sexual Safety
Here at BTR.ORG, we understand the overwhelming chaos you feel when you discover your husband is constantly on his phone because he’s using exploitative material. Just brushing your teeth can feel like an insurmountable task.
Try to remember to give yourself grace as you process this new information, and give yourself the space to create emotional safety for yourself, rather than immediately “working on the marriage”.
Transcript: Why is My Husband Constantly on His Phone?
Anne: I have Dr. Heidi Hastings and Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones on today’s episode. Dr. Hastings recently completed her PhD in family studies at Texas Women’s University. Her research is on religious women who married men who are constantly on their phones using exploitative material.
Dr. Lucero Jones is a practicing marriage and family therapist and professor of marriage and family therapy at Texas Women’s University. Together, they have researched women who have experienced betrayal, and I’m so excited to share their research with us today. Welcome.
Heidi: Thanks, Anne. We’re happy to be here.
Rebecca: Thank you. We’re glad to be here.
Research Focus: Religious Women & Betrayal When He’s Always On His Phone
Anne: So in your studies, you develop the five stages of betrayal and self development. Why don’t we start there?
Heidi: So we are interested in the experience of religious women when their husbands are always on their phones.
We recruited women from non-denominational Christian religions, from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, several Protestant Christian religions, fundamentalist Christian religions, Jewish religions, and we had one Muslim participant, and Catholic. We also had a few women in different religions who moved towards spirituality instead.
So, our range of religious representation here is pretty broad.
Rebecca: We conducted interviews with 31 women of various denominations and sects of different religions, and wanted to understand their experience as a whole and understand the process they go through. Maybe even before they find out that their husband has some sort of compulsive behaviors. Then what happens afterwards, and kind of where do they eventually land.
As we asked them these questions, they told us their stories of their experiences of discovery that what’s he’s always doing on his phone is looking at online exploitation. And also of how they coped and what happened with the marriage. What kind of help they sought out. Their experience with their religions, religious leaders, other family members, friends, just anybody in their social circles.
From that, we developed this model that showed us that there were actually five distinct stages that women went through. But we also noticed a lot of self-development throughout their healing process.
When He’s Always On His Phone: Understanding Religious & Cultural Scripts
Heidi: So the first stage is religious, family, and cultural scripts. Which scripts are, if you think about a play, somebody gets a script that tells them this is how they behave.
Before the discovery that their husband was using his phone for secretive things, often even before marriage. This understanding from a religious perspective facilitated her creation of beautiful, yet innocent core beliefs. About herself, her marriage, her faith, and her relationship with God.
Her personal identity was often abandoned, for the couple’s identity created at marriage. While these women had innocent beliefs that are beneficial to many women. For women I interviewed, their innocence later proves problematic.
Innocent Beliefs & Their Consequences When He’s Always On His Phone
Heidi: So the things that religion brings to many beautiful marriages. Actually compromised some parts and made them susceptible to danger, abuse, and trauma.
They described these initial innocent beliefs as naive and shallow, shameful or confusing later on. Their naivety was also seen in women who knew about their husband’s constant phone use before marriage. So we did have several women for whom it wasn’t secret.
Most of the time, they tell her it’s not a big deal. I’ve taken care of it. It’s no longer an issue. Or they tell her, and the women believed when we marry, we can have all of it we want. So the desire to use their phones constantly isn’t going to be an issue anymore. It’s just going to go away.
Anne: Marriage is going to be the solution.
Heidi: Marriage will be the solution, yes.
Marriage Myths & Realities When He’s Addicted To His Phone
Anne: That is a common myth. That even sometimes church leaders perpetuate that marriage will solve his constant exploitative content problem, or maybe his immaturity problem. If he’s immature, he should probably just get married. And then he’ll be fine, rather than wait a minute, solve the problem first.
Heidi: Exactly. So even those women who knew he uses his phone constantly to access it ahead of time truly underestimated the problem. So each of the women in our study had a unique belief system and path leading to the discovery of how problematic it truly was.
But there were many common characteristics that describe the process. That most of the women went through in this stage. Their naive beliefs about gender, and God, really influenced their understanding at this point.
Naivety About What He’s Really Doing On His Phone
Anne: When you say naive, it sounds like victim blaming-ish. But not simultaneously, right?
Heidi: That’s why we also use the word innocent, yes.
Anne: Innocent, but also maybe even faithful.
Heidi: That’s a good point.
Anne: They believed what their church leaders told them. If their church leader said, “if you obey the commandments and if you marry a “good guy”.” Under these circumstances, your marriage will be good. They checked all those boxes and had faith, thinking, “I did everything I was supposed to do”. It wasn’t a naive thing. I listened to my leaders and did what they said. I wasn’t naive, I had a college degree.”
Rebecca: The reason we chose the word naive is that it is the word the women use. So many times with this research, we try to use the words of the participants. So we capture their experience as they experienced it. And I think maybe that is a resentment towards your earlier self, right? At that time, I just listened to my leaders, and I let them tell me what was best, and I ignored my gut.
So I think there might be a little bit of resentment when they’re using that word. I think you’re right. That whether we use the word naive or faithful, it’s capturing this thing women are often taught. That they are better women. You’re a good woman. If you’re more innocent, pure, you believe, faithful, and we are taught to listen to leaders.
Religious Leaders’ Influence
Rebecca: Many times, in the religious context in which many of these women operate, we have quotes from the women. Where they met with a pastor or church leader, or not as much with the rabbis, but with different leaders. And they were directly told to submit to their husbands that their husbands will lead them in this arena. That they would be safe, and that their husbands knew what they were doing.
So you’re right, many women did, I would say, appease their husband’s requests. That they went along with these things. Because religious leaders are directed to listen to their husband or that they could trust their husband.
Heidi: Particularly for those that aligned with fundamentalist religions. And they had innocent or naive beliefs about what he’s constantly doing on his phone. And that’s just that it’s bad, that’s all they knew. This is bad, people who view it are bad. And that was an incomplete understanding they later identified.
Anne: Also a lack of education about emotional and psychological abuse, coercion, and rape even. So with that lack of education that the religion didn’t give them. They didn’t say, okay, we’re going to teach you about marriage. But also read the Bible and read this book about abuse before you marry?
There wasn’t that. So in terms of abuse education, they didn’t have the exposure to it.
Lack of Education On Abuse & Coerction
Heidi: Well, and even one step further, they didn’t even have education surrounding sexuality. They entered it in a very pure and innocent way. Often expecting their husband to guide and show them the way. Which most men had constantly watched it on their phone and it was their education, and there’s just a big dissonance.
Anne: Abuse is their education.
Rebecca: And I would say not only not being aware of rules of consent, but also knowing about abuse. But also not having a roadmap for healthy intimacy. Because many times in religions, it’s like no intimacy. And then suddenly it’s a free for all. And you’re just supposed to know what that looks like. So there’s no roadmap for what healthy looks like.
https://youtu.be/bV3mhCAOAOA
And I will say in the interviews, it’s clear within the religious context. The message women receive is say yes to everything. There is no consent. So church leaders teach them to say yes to everything. So you don’t have any agency within the relationship.
Your husband will take care of you. Just trust him. So I would say even basic things like agency, consent. Learning how to figure out what feels good in your body is very important. There’s a real absence of that in the religious context.
Rape & Lack Of Choice When He Uses His Phone All The Time
Heidi: One Catholic woman reported that in her Pre-Cana, which is meeting with the priest before her marriage. Her priest said to her, “Your husband has a right to have it”. He has a right to conjugal visits, and you can’t say no. And in hindsight, she was horrified that he’d used the word conjugal visits. Like it was a jail or a prison.
Anne: If you can’t say no, that priest is saying your husband can rape you.
Rebecca: That’s the sad thing, right? This is often the arrangement of the marriage. Consent is not even part of the equation. There’s no equity in the relationship, there’s no freedom.
Anne: You have the right to say no, which you technically do have the right to say no. But they don’t think they do. Which is rape. Rape is being supported by these religious scripts.
Rebecca: A lot of them, it was not happening. But there were definitely some of our participants who said, looking back, this was definitely abuse.
This was definitely rape, but at the time they couldn’t see it. Because they marry with a larger social script saying, you always say yes. But how do you say yes? If you always have to say yes. You can’t, it doesn’t mean anything.
Anne: It is the definition of rape, and nobody taught him that. If you can’t say no, it’s rape.
Trusting Without Trustworthiness
Heidi: We definitely had some participants who realized that later, but they didn’t even understand it at the time. Because through religious messaging, they had such explicit trust in their husbands. That allowed them to be really emotionally, and physically vulnerable. It gave them a false sense of security, because they thought their husbands would be loyal and faithful. Especially when they belong to the same religion.
They had so much trust for them that they made these naive assumptions. And the assumptions were that they’d be trustworthy, monogamous, exclusive, they’d avoid it. Even though there wasn’t any behavioral evidence for doing so. And they assume their relationship would be healthy, robust and intimate. Which many of them were the exact opposite, but they relinquish power.
Knowingly for some women because they’ve been told to, but for others they unconsciously yield to his needs. For his preferences, and they didn’t know their own. Many of them started to be silent.
Anne: Well, it’s interesting to me that victims don’t recognize they are doing that for emotional safety or psychological safety. Because of her emotional safety, her financial safety depends on him. They are really weighing out the pros and cons of, is this safe for me to do, is this not? If I don’t have it with him, he’s going to be angry.
When He’s Constantly On His Phone Doing Harmful Things, It’s An Abusive Situation
Anne: He might yell at me. It’s going to be scary. And that’s why this kind of use, at least the way we approach it here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is a domestic abuse issue. Because if you’re coming at it from a place of fear. And the reason why you’re agreeing is because you’re silenced, afraid, or you feel like you have to. Then, you’re in an abusive situation.
And so many women have these concerns and worries. They don’t know to define it as abuse. Did they define it as abuse in the study?
Heidi: In this first innocent stage, specifically, the kind of relationships or abuse you’re talking about weren’t on the forefront of their mind. That comes later on, but I would say very few saw it as abuse. Some did after some work with coaches, but largely at this point, no.
Anne: Well, that’s what I see too.
Rebecca: When we recruited our participants, we found that over half of the men have extramarital behaviors. So it isn’t just exploitative content. Women are not saying, oh my husband looked at one picture. He’s got a problem, and they’re making a big fuss of it.
Women are complaining because there is a lot going on in the background. There is a lot of lying, there is no intimacy. There are many problems in the marriage that make a woman say, “Something’s off here”. Something’s wrong. It’s not just he looked at some pictures, right?
The Crisis Stage Begins When You Discover What He’s Doing On His Phone
Heidi: That said, we did have one participant, probably her level of PTSD was one of the two or three highest in all of the group. And she had just seen one picture her husband had looked at. They were Christian missionaries in the mountains of Mexico, and that put her over the edge. The idea of this innocence then shifts into what Anne was saying through stage two, which is crisis.
Anne: We talk about this one man somewhere who might look at it and be a nice guy. The women who come to BTR, none of them have that experience. It’s that they try to get help, they try to figure it out, and no one told them it was abuse. That’s why it’s the best support for betrayal trauma. And so they couldn’t find their way out. Because it was more like put your shoulders to the wheel sort of thing. Like help him with his addiction and stand by your man kind of stuff.
And at least from the women I’ve sampled, which is not everyone, but it’s never just this one time this guy looks at this one picture. So for that woman in the mountains, there’s probably so much abuse going on that she didn’t even realize, lying, gas lighting, and psychological abuse. Which is why she reacts the way she did
She might not have even been aware of it when she described it to you. Which is so hard, because women who don’t have abuse education can’t describe what it is. It makes it hard to grasp what’s happening, because they’re not going to say, yes, this was psychological abuse.
Out Of Boundary Behaviors
Rebecca: I think you’re right. I mean, anytime I have someone coming in and discussing any sort of, it could be texting, it could be a picture. I can never know the depth of what’s going on because many times people will come and catch somebody. Or somebody disclosed some sort of behavior. That’s outside of, I would say what we call the marital contract, right.
Anne: There’s boundaries or something, yeah.
Rebecca: That they have set, right. Every couple may have different boundaries. But whatever boundaries they’ve set, there’s some sort of behavior outside of that, and as a therapist, I always have to remember. I can never know whether they’re being honest with me.
Like you said, there could be many behaviors going on. But if the woman is desperate to save the marriage. She will also not create a narrative for the therapist that says, yes, he looked at this picture. And there’s also this thing where I don’t feel like I can do what I want. Also, I don’t have agency in my life, and I don’t have control of my finances.
Many of that stuff takes time to come out. And so it is hard, because there’s so much invested in saving the marriage. Sometimes, one, the man is not honest, he’s hiding something. And two, the woman does not know about the things she’s experiencing.
Anne: She can be completely honest. She’s just not educated about abuse.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Recognizing His Behaviors Are Abusive
Anne: What I’ve seen most of the time. If I say, did you know that’s abuse? They’re like, what? Well, he’s not punching me in the face. So as they transition to stage two, let’s talk about that now.
Rebecca: I’ll talk about that. Stage 2 we named crisis. This is often where things are starting to unravel for the woman. So one of the first things that happens for her is that she notices something isn’t right in the marriage. So it can be that her husband is withdrawing. Many women talk about how it starts to not happen as much or at all.
Maybe she buys new lingerie and he has no reaction. It could be other behaviors, but she is noticing that something isn’t right in the marriage. Something is off. And so often, when this happens, she may try to compensate to stabilize the relationship.
So that can look like doing acts that maybe before she wasn’t willing to do. It can look like offering herself up at different times that she wasn’t wanting to. That can look a lot of different ways .
The Traumatic Impact of His Constant Phone Use
Rebecca: And then one of the most important things that happens in the crisis stage is discovery. Sometimes men would come forward, maybe they listened to a sermon that made them feel guilty. And they may actually confess to their wives what has been happening.
Then suddenly he’s like, actually, you know what, I have continued to do this. He’ll share that. And sometimes they’re walking in on their husbands viewing this stuff. And many times the women are having traumatic responses. Especially if she sees him in the act of masturbation while watching something. It’s very traumatic if she sees that happening in real time.
Heidi: It was especially traumatic if she actually saw what he was looking at. Because most women imagine it as something that would appear in a magazine. But when she saw the severity, intensity, violence, whatever it was. That really created severe shock and trauma responses.
Rebecca: A lot can come from that. A client stumbled upon what her husband had been viewing on his phone. And she was disturbed to find that the people he was looking at looked like her. And we had one person in our study who was Black, and I don’t remember the race of the woman he watched, but it wasn’t hers.
When He Uses His Phone Objectification Women
Rebecca: It’s interesting whether it’s someone who looks like you or doesn’t look like you. I think it triggers this thing inside of you. Where you don’t know what your husband’s attracted to. You don’t know if he marries you, because you’re his fantasy versus a real person. I think it just objectifies you either way.
The meaning you make around that may vary depending on what he’s viewing. But either way, I think the woman begins to realize that she’s questioning whether he sees her as a full person. Who he is engaging with versus these images. And so it’s very traumatic, and many women can’t speak. They literally cannot speak for 20, 30 minutes, an hour, they are completely speechless. They have visceral reactions in their body.
Some of them talk about feeling the life drain out of them. Some of them got very ill. We have some women talk about immediately feeling suicidal, where there was no suicidal ideation before this. So we see a lot of symptoms physiologically. Research shows that in Iraqi troops, rates of PTSD were as high as 35%. But we know that with those who experience betrayal trauma, the rates of PTSD can be even higher. And so I think that’s important.
We do a lot in our country in America for veterans, because they experience PTSD symptoms. But it is important, I think, for clinicians, friends, families and those experiencing this, to know that PTSD is common. And many times we are not recognizing that with infidelity or compulsive behaviors, the partners are experiencing a bit of trauma.
Trying To Find Emotional Safety When He’s Always on His Phone
Rebecca: This is something that many people don’t like to talk about. They talk about it as a relationship problem, not as a traumatic experience. So really, it is a crisis when the woman experiences this. Because it’s not just, Oh, we got marriage problems. She’s also having a very physiological response to learning about her husband’s behaviors.
When the crisis hits, many times women don’t know how to proceed. No one’s prepared them for this. And so many times they’re in a hurry to keep themselves safe, and that makes sense.
Anne: That’s what we do here at BTR, strategic boundaries! This is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop.
Heidi: BTR really does come in nicely in this stage and in the next stage. In fact, one of our participants mentioned nine times in her interview about BTR. Which is what helps us decide that it might be a good idea to talk to you. But one of the decisions they make often is that they’re going to have a lot of it with him to try to fix that.
That’s not fully thought out. But it is one of the things that emerged in the interviews that is happening right after the discovery.
Anne: Thinking that was maybe the cause, they didn’t have enough of it.
Heidi: Right
Feeling Silenced & Shame When He Ignores Me To Use His Phone
Rebecca: So following that, many women feel silenced. It is so hard for anyone, I think, to tell your friend that your husband has cancer. But telling him he has an addiction problem, strip clubs or seeing prostitutes is not on the list of things you’re going to share. Even with a best friend, even with family, there’s so much shame around this. And what it might say about the woman.
There’s so much onus put on, like, well, you didn’t have enough with him. Those are definitely messages I think within the cultural context that these women are operating in. And so the shame just absolutely silences the women. So they’re in this crisis. Many of them talked about how much they’d been through in their lives. And this was by far the worst thing. We’re talking like a lot of painful things in people’s lives. And that this is the hardest.
I think one of the reasons it is the hardest is because there is so much invested in their silence. Whether it’s the man in a church position or in the military. We noticed that many times these men had high profile positions. Whether they were in the context of the religion or outside, that made it feel impossible for her to disclose to anybody of status of what was going on. Because a lot of times it might hurt her.
Pressure To Keep It Secret
Rebecca: So like one person shared that her husband was a high ranking military personnel. She said she couldn’t disclose that he’s an adulterer. Because if he was caught for that, he might get demoted and kicked out. And she’s going to lose all her benefits, and she’s going to lose their military retirement. So there are really not many policies and procedures in place to protect women when men behave in this way. So we saw a lot of silencing of the women.
That was something that I think kept them in a place of shame.
Anne: How will I take care of my kids? How will I put food on the table? And those are really just typical, checklist definitions of domestic abuse.
Heidi: Well, and those who weren’t afraid were necessarily embarrassed that it made them look like they weren’t enough. That they weren’t good enough in bed, that they weren’t a good enough person to keep their husband tied to them. Very complex decision making that goes on that keeps them silent at that point.
Anne: Well, and that’s also the psychological abuse. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not a good enough person. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not good enough in bed, because he blames her for everything.
Heidi: Sometimes during that crisis, they tried to tell a family member, they tried to tell a religious leader, they tried to tell a therapist that didn’t result in actual help. And so that’s in part what leads to this aftermath stage of, I’ve tried to get help for some of them.
Some of them, I was the first person they’d ever told, but some had made attempts and It was hurtful rather than helpful.
The Aftermath Of Betrayal
Anne: Yeah, we see that a lot here, yeah.
Rebecca: So that leads us into our third stage, which we call the aftermath. In the aftermath, the woman is left with this severed trust and attachment. Many women give up a lot to marry and trust their husband. And then now their husband has let them down in such a major way. With the level of deception that has occurred, in the level of behaviors that have occurred without her knowing. Without her consent.
And so many times in the wake of this betrayal, not knowing what to do at this point. Can they restore trust? Can this be fixed? And so with that comes not just the questioning of, I would say, the marriage, but a questioning of everything they once believed.
Questioning Faith & Trust
Rebecca: Many of these women, because they’re religious and trust God, are marrying somebody within their religion. Many times that feels like they’re making the right choices. Especially when they’re caught off guard. It feels like, why didn’t God warn me? Why didn’t God help me learn this earlier?
I mean, we’re talking to some women finding this out after 30 years of marriage. So it’s a long time to feel like God didn’t even give me a heads up. So many of them ask, you know, God, why’d you allow this to happen to me? Why did you allow me to marry him?
Anne: Did you notice they also simultaneously said, and I don’t know if they did? But sorry, I’m just wondering. Because I see this a lot, that they also simultaneously said God kind of did warn them. Like they knew in their gut that something was wrong, and they couldn’t figure out what it was. Or did some of them just say they had no idea and it came out of nowhere?
Heidi: I think that’s where that something isn’t right comes in. They knew something was not right in that second stage of crisis.
Anne: They just didn’t identify it as a spiritual warning maybe?
Caught Off Guard
Rebecca: I wouldn’t say they knew. Because I’m going to guess that many of these women are the praying kind. And I would say that if they feel something is off. Then I would imagine they would ask God about that. So I did not get the impression, that inclination, that something’s off from God. I feel like they, many of them, felt pretty abandoned in the moment of the crisis. And many times, because for some people, the lies were severe.
There was one person whose husband was with 300 prostitutes. So we’re talking about a lot of lies. And I think it’s so different from their relationship with God. They’ve probably felt like they’ve received answers from God. And that it’s probably why they feel abandoned. Because they’ve probably felt guided by God in a lot of areas of their life.
And then now they’re finding out there are all these secrets in this part of their life. And I think that is probably what makes it not make sense. How’s God been helping me in these ways? But with this major thing, I’m totally caught off guard. And many women are caught off guard.
There were some people who were not from the U.S., from Europe, and some Jewish women. And I would say in those cultures, this kind of viewing is considered more normative. And so many times they are still caught off guard. Because they were taught to watch it sometimes as a normal behavior. And then they saw their husband’s mental health really decline, and physical health even declined because he’s always on his phone.
Spiritual Experiences Amidst Crisis
Rebecca: Sometimes they’re even shocked to discover it. And again, I think it’s because in their minds, they didn’t know what he was doing on his phone. So even those women raised in a climate where using a phone all the time wasn’t a big deal still experienced a level of shock, which is interesting.
Anne: Yeah, that makes sense.
Rebecca: Yes. And so they were surprised to see that it was a big deal. So I think they were like, no, this can be a problem. It’s not, yeah, it’s not just pictures.
Heidi: All this questioning is going on. There are many women who are also having spiritual experiences with God at this time. So we had both camps going on that they felt they had dreams, heard voices, felt a presence near them. They had these spiritual experiences going on.
I don’t want to discount the women who weren’t going through a faith crisis of sorts because of this. But many of them questioned not only their faith, but they questioned everything they knew about their husband.
Heidi: Okay, so if this isn’t true, what else isn’t true.
Anne: Well, and they should in that moment.
Heidi: Right? Their whole reality in every way. They couldn’t figure out what is real.
Anne: He’s just shown himself as a compulsive liar. If they didn’t do that, it wouldn’t be normal.
Ignoring Gut Feelings
Anne: I’m still fascinated, and many women don’t, so this is not a new idea. But I just want to point out that it’s interesting that women don’t recognize their own gut feelings through the abuse, through the psychological abuse and the gaslighting and the institutional gaslighting going on.
They don’t see it as God telling them something. So then rather than thinking, God’s trying to tell me something, I need to listen. I need to listen. They think, oh, I must be crazy.
Heidi: And that’s a big thing that we heard.
Anne: He’s telling me I’m crazy. My priest tells me I’m cuckoo. I asked too many questions. I just need to chill out, rather than think God is trying to tell me something. And then even after finding out. That something was wrong, rather than thinking, Oh, God did warn me. He was trying to warn me the whole time. They’re still thinking, I’m stupid. I didn’t see it. Everyone including my husband says I’m the problem.
That’s what makes me sad. Every place they turn to try to understand what’s happening or get help, they’re just kind of squashed down. Repeatedly over the years, which I think is like the culmination of the 20 years of trauma when they figure out what he’s been doing. It’s not just that one thing. It’s like the culmination of institutional abuse, the psychological abuse, and the societal abuse is like sort of coming to a head. And so that’s so painful.
Developmental Lens
Heidi: Well, and also, because we’re looking at this through a developmental lens. We have to remember that in that stage of innocence, their ability to recognize that intuition, their ability to recognize maybe spiritual promptings is less developed.
Than it becomes later through experience. So a lot of experiential learning teaches us how to be more attuned to our own agency to making choices for ourselves, to our own power as women. And at some stages, they weren’t experienced in that yet. And that comes with more experience.
Anne: Well, and also the result of that, if you’re like, okay, well, my pastor told me it’s fine. So I guess that’s okay, because you haven’t yet seen the end result. So in that moment you think, Oh, I must be crazy. It is fine. I don’t know why I’m making a big deal out of this, because he is nice.
Everything’s okay. What was I freaking out about? But then two years later, five years later, 20 years later, you’re like, Oh, this is what I was freaking out about, no wonder. But in that moment, because you don’t know what’s happening, it’s hard to wrap your head around it.
Heidi: Yeah, they had no comprehension.
Coping Mechanisms & Seeking Emotional Safety
Rebecca: Many women were desperate to fix the marriage, to fix what was broken. So many times that’s trying to help him, help him overcome the addiction. Maybe having more. And many of them talked about how that was a strategy they tried to use. But it never worked, because the lack of it, was not the problem. And so a lot of desperation to fix things.
Another important part of this was how women were coping. Some women were coping by using their religion or spirituality as a resource. Many of them spent a lot of time in prayer or meditation seeking solace. But then some other women had some, I would say, more maladaptive coping strategies like drinking. Many times, there were not many resources available to these women.
Heidi: It’s mostly maladaptive, like starving themselves, focusing on their body. How it’s not good enough, screaming, yelling, trauma responses.
Rebecca: As they’re trying desperately to fix it and salvage it.
Anne: And I would say control is safety seeking. In a, I need some semblance of emotional safety, psychological safety.
Rebecca: Many times, the women have not been able to do it on their own. So many times when we were talking about how this is too big, this is going to kill me. They can’t manage it.
When You Find Out: Handing It To God
Rebecca: And at that point, they’re ready to give it to God, because they cannot hold it. It is too big for them to fix it, fix the marriage, and fix what’s wrong with their husband. And so at this point, many of them are ready to hand it to God.
Heidi: Or to just a level of acceptance. Some that didn’t necessarily align with God maybe thought more of it as a higher power. Or just acceptance that this was the state they were in and they couldn’t handle it.
Anne: Just accepting the situation. Like, okay, this is a situation, and there’s nothing I can do about it. That kind of acceptance?
Heidi: Right. I can’t control what has happened.
Healing From Being Ignored By Your Husband
Heidi: So the fourth stage is healing. After they’re realizing they have no control over what has happened, they start grabbing hold of this power within themselves. It almost seemed like, and they start vulnerably breaking their silence.
Many for the first time, they are desperate to find help, ask for help through therapists, sometimes through religious leaders or different religious leaders. Because maybe who they’d gone to before wasn’t helpful. But they in the past didn’t have the language to speak about these shameful topics.
So many of the women started their learning process, their learning journey, their healing process through books, podcasts, websites, social media. Things that you have through BTR, anything that they could find on addiction or on betrayal, trauma, or infidelity. If that was part of their experience.
They sought out support groups like yours. And the more quickly they broke their silence, they reduced shame. Which getting rid of shame was key to healing, the less time they spend in those crisis and aftermath stages. So some women had spent decades in crisis and aftermath, but finally, when they start learning and getting ahold of resources, they can start healing. And so we appreciate the work you do to help women heal.
Support From God
Heidi: Additionally, many women leaned heavily upon and reported receiving support from God, like I mentioned. But even at a different level, when they had religious leaders that would actually validate them, see them.
Anne: Which is rare. How many of the 31 you interviewed had that?
Heidi: I think many women went to several religious leaders, so they would find some that didn’t work, and then they would change congregations.
Anne: So it’s hit and miss.
Heidi: Find different pastors, it was definitely hit and miss, but there were some who had really phenomenal support from religious leaders.
Jewish Woman’s Story
Heidi: One that comes specifically to mind was a Jewish woman, who her friends said, “We’re taking you to see the rabbi”. And the rabbi happened to be a woman.
And she said she pushed it away. She kept saying no, because she was so embarrassed. Her husband’s in a high profile position. But she finally went to see the rabbi, and the rabbi took her to the mikveh. Which is a sacred immersion in living waters in the Jewish tradition that symbolizes coming out of the Garden of Eden.
And they enter the waters completely naked, immersing themselves back into the waters of creation for purposes of rebirth and renewal. Like a new start, we’re going to wash away all the corruption, all the negativity, all the pain, the suffering, and start new. And it didn’t happen immediately for her, but the step that that religious leader took to help her see that she was cared for. She was validated, that was so meaningful.
And there were a few stories of women who had great experiences with religious leaders, typically that they helped women find resources. Not that they necessarily tried to handle it, control it, or fix it on their own. But they were able to access resources for the women to get them help immediately.
Learning About Abuse When You’re Trying To Figure Out What He’s Doing
Heidi: And then with that support that the women got, usually in groups. They learned how to set intentional boundaries that allowed them to feel more empowered, protected and safe. As you’ve said, one of the interesting findings in this stage.
Or about betrayal, or relationships or even God in new ways, played a significant role in their healing. And in the reconstruction of their identity. Because they for so long during this crisis and aftermath stage, they didn’t know who they were anymore.
Even learning for a new career or any kind of learning seemed to open up pathways of healing. This is the first time many of them start caring for themselves. Because they, for so long, had been conditioned to care for everyone else first. But once they started implementing those self care strategies, they recognized how much it could improve relationships with their children.
Several women reported how art, poetry, music, dance, or any other types of artistic forms were key to their healing. Quilting was another big one. And perhaps part of that is because quilting is often done in groups of women and provides support in many ways. So those artistic forms brought comfort and understanding, coping and peace. And especially, I think, like I said, quilting. There are other things, dancing with other women, doing just movement.
Other Ways Of Healing
Heidi: So through these different forms of healing, they started to see their reality through new, more educated and experienced lenses. They started to see the injustices they’d experienced during this stage. And I think what you’re doing helps teach women. Help them also see, Oh my goodness, I didn’t even recognize that when I didn’t give consent, that could be rape or abuse.
Anne: You mentioned a bunch of things they learned about, like addiction and other things. They didn’t mention abuse? They didn’t say I learned so much about abuse.
Heidi: No, there were a few who said they had learned that their husband’s way of having it with them was abusive. That was about the only thing they saw as abuse. But many of them had talked about gas lighting, which I think you consider abuse, right?
Anne: Yeah, because the person’s purposefully trying to alter their reality.
Heidi: So they didn’t use that language, but they started, like I said, to see the injustices they’d experienced. And they started to see parts of the religious narratives that had contributed to the marginalization of women. And led them to assume they were responsible for their husband’s behavior.
Which now they could see, Oh my goodness, that’s not truth. So as their self awareness expanded, they started to expand their self development and understanding of who they are and their own use of their agency.
Spiritual Trauma From His Constant Phone Use
Anne: And spiritual trauma, that happens too, because it’s the opposite of what they’ve been taught. That if you just love, serve, forgive and self sacrifice, you’ll have enlightenment. And they’re like, well I did all that, and I for sure was not enlightened. I was, in fact, kept in the dark, and now I’m having more enlightenment than ever. And it’s focusing on my own interests.
It’s a weird place to be, because it feels so good and freeing. And then also kind of like, but this is the opposite of what I was taught. So it’s also a confusing time, I think.
Heidi: Because often I think in religious marriages, they’re taught, be one and sacrifice.
Women Being In Sacrificial Roles
Heidi: And those things are truly important, but they’re important in a safe and healthy relationship. And I think the more we give women the language and power to do that. The examples, the more it’s modeled for them, the more they’ll take that upon their own way of doing things. But when you’ve especially seen a mother as a sacrificial role, we take that script and believe that that is the way we behave.
Anne: Well, because if she tried to do anything else, people were like, you’re selfish.
Heidi: Exactly.
Anne: And it wasn’t okay for her to want to do something, which is sad. That was my personal situation with my abusive ex, because I was like, nope, this is what I want to do. And I’m going to do it. And I was the most terrible woman in the world because women aren’t supposed to be like that.
They’re supposed to be kind and loving, and they’re supposed to sacrifice for their family. And yet his dysfunctional family was doing that, what they wanted to do. But instead of saying, Oh, I just want to do this, so I’m doing it. They were like, I’m doing this because I love you. And I’m doing this because I’m so righteous.
And so, because I wasn’t apparently saying it the right way, you can’t just say it’s because I want to do it. I was actually not doing what I was supposed to do, apparently.
Spiritual Abuse When He Blames You For His Constant Phone Use
Heidi: There were several women during stage four, where they started to see things differently. They did talk about spiritual abuse. That they recognized it was going on in their relationship. I was thinking more, you’re talking about coercion and emotional abuse. But I would say perhaps the effects of spiritual abuse is what they most identified. Or at least spoke of during that stage, where they start seeing what’s going on.
Rebecca: I want to add that anytime you’re in a relationship with someone who has any sort of spiritual authority over you. Which often, I would say, within different religions, the man is seen as a little like the head of the household. Or spiritual kind of leader in the home.
Intimate abuse is spiritual abuse. Because if the person who abuses you has spiritual power over you, just by that alone. That person is a person through which your relationship with God is somewhat filtered through that person. So I think spiritual abuse is actually much more common than I think people actually talk about.
Anne: Well, not just from the abusive spouse, but also secondarily through the help they might try to get from a religious leader. Who is not only aiding and abetting coercion, but also through spiritual abuse. Like this is what God would want you to do. And I’m your spiritual leader.
And you need to give him it whenever he wants it. It’s super traumatic. Did these guys not go to their work, harassment training?
Rebecca: While some of them have zero training,
Anne: I know.
Rebecca: That’s a part of it.
Anne: But I’m like, maybe they should have learned about rape before they give women advice.
Uneducated Marriage Advice
Heidi: Well, I went through a similar situation, perhaps an issue, but it was three decades ago. When I learned he uses it. And so there weren’t the resources available. And yes, a religious leader told me that I needed to submit. I wanted to leave the marriage, and he wanted me to stay. And the religious leader told me that I needed to stay.
And I knew he was wrong. But I did it anyway, for at least a while longer.
Anne: Which amounts to spiritual abuse in that it was a way of coercing you to stay in an abusive situation. It’s really sad that that’s happening. And even though yours was three decades ago, it’s happening every day, all day long now. Which I’m still floored about. I’m like, what? Well, and it happened to me. I’ve been divorced for eight years, but I’m still shocked that women are coming to me, and it happened to them literally last week.
Rebecca: He is not only in that position, but also a church leader who encourages you to stay in an unsafe situation. The real abuse happens when they use their power to give advice. They know you see them as an authority. They give advice that goes against what you feel God has told you.
I think messing with your relationship with God really hurts you. That is the scariest part to me. A lot of times, they don’t know better. They don’t mean to put you in danger, but what they don’t know still hurts women a lot. This is a big problem.
Domestic Abuse Education
Rebecca: And they are usually the first people women go to. And then when they get that response, it doesn’t feel safe to go to anybody else.
Anne: I would not only say it is going against women’s intuition, which is the most important thing, but also against just like literally basic domestic abuse education. And because they don’t have, or maybe they’re abusers themselves. And when I say basic domestic abuse education, I mean, what is psychological abuse?
What is emotional abuse? What is spiritual abuse? Many people think they know what that is, because they watched Safe Harbor, the movie with Julianna Hough. And they think they know, Oh, yeah, he looks bad. And that’s what this looks like. I would know that if she walked in and had a black eye, but it’s not just her intuition.
It’s also any domestic abuse expert would be like, check, check, check. This is checking all the boxes. It’s scary to me that they’re giving advice to abuse victims when they do not know what they’re looking at. But it’s also not surprising, because hardly anyone does.
And so I have a lot of grace for them, because I was also in that boat where I had a master’s degree and was doing my best to be an educated person. I thought I understood abuse, but was in an abusive situation for seven years and did not know.
Grace For Ignorance
Anne: Until I knew, and then I was like, Oh, okay, now I know more. And so that having grace for us not being educated about it and for other people not being educated about it is really hard. When it’s not like a class everybody takes in high school or something.
Thank you for sharing that information about the healing stage. I’ve also seen that with the women who come to BTR. Okay. Let’s talk about the fifth stage now.
In fact, one of the women I loved most said, after the betrayal, the words she said to herself were, I can think of nothing that’s the same. Because her reality has shifted so much. But after moving into this transformation stage, she said, I told myself those same words, nothing is the same.
At first, those words felt impossible to fix, like everything was broken and would never heal. Now, she says, everything has changed. She talks about her identity and her love for herself. The women feel like they can be real, honest, and open in their relationships, especially with the friends they made in support groups.
They spoke about healthy intimacy and how closely intertwined it can be with spirituality.
The women talked about that. I want to learn about healthy relationshihps. It feels more intimate and spiritual now. Most women stayed in their religion, but they questioned and changed beliefs that didn’t help them during the crisis. This made them feel more vulnerable.
Reconstructing Beliefs
Heidi: At this point, they built a simpler belief system with religion as the base. Their relationship with God became the focus. Instead of making religious rituals and beliefs the center, they focused on their connection with God. We call this their spirituality, and it all came from their relationship with God..
They were able to develop a deeper, more personal relationship with God. Or attachment to God, because they found God much more trustworthy than their husband was.
A few of the women from different religions actually, and it was I think three or four women talked about longing for a female deity that had an equal weight to a male God. Not that replaced a male God, but that had an equal weight. That would elevate women to an equal status with men and could work together.
And they loved that vision of that might model for their own current or future relationships. There were a few women who no longer felt they could worship in the same way. While most stayed in their religion, we had a few who completely left religion.
There were some who changed locations and yet still maintained that spiritual aspect of religion that they’d gained belief in a higher power, belief in prayer, they started taking ownership of their preferences and behaviors.
One of my favorite interviews had a Native American woman who stayed with a high ranking military officer for years. Because she would have been left with nothing financially. During this period, she just decided I don’t care.
Experiential Learning When You’re Trying To Figure It Out
Heidi: She moved back onto the reservation into her grandfather’s abandoned home. That had been abandoned for decades. And she, all by herself, with a Home Depot credit card, rebuilt that entire home.
It had no running water, no electricity, and no windows. She felt cold and had hardly any money. But she built herself up. She loved that home and made it a safe place. She felt confident.
And they became awakened to a more complete sense of themselves. They were able to, because they did that, reach new levels of intimacy, because they did that.
To have true intimacy, we must know ourselves. They began to see life and God in a whole new way. They used their voices and their choices in powerful ways. The five stages show this model clearly. These stages match many human development stages in books. Experiential learning teaches us lessons we always remember.
And in those advanced levels of experiential learning, we truly learn to help others and fill love at deeper levels.
Anne: I love that I’ve seen that just anecdotally through my experience. But it’s awesome to know how hopeful the situation is, because it feels so dark and so awful when you’re going through it. I remember thinking when people say like, it’ll get better or something like that.
Power Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group
Anne: I was so mad. I thought, you don’t know, you don’t know how bad it is. And people might say things like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, something like that. I just was so angry about it. And now I find myself saying that same thing to others. And so I want to say, I know that it doesn’t feel good to have someone say, “You’re brave and you’re strong” and that you will come out of this, this amazing brave woman.
It feels terrible, but there is so much hope. And I want them to feel that like deep, deep down inside. And if they can’t feel it, like I couldn’t, just maybe hold on to our words or maybe don’t be really mad like I was. Because I was just ticked all the time for a while and that’s okay too.
Heidi: Groups help women see others going through the same thing. They can look at someone further along and think, “In six months or a year, I can be where she is.” Groups give women hope. Women see that if they stick with it and learn about boundaries, things will get better. They watch others in their group improve and feel encouraged.
Rebecca: And I think another thing about groups that can be helpful is to see that women end up at all sorts of positions. It helps women see women end up in various places, and they feel happy and feel like they’re a better version of themselves.
Rebuilding For The Future
Rebecca: Healing can happen in many ways. And really, however, this plays out for any individual woman she’s going to have to be thoughtful and honest with herself. Am I safe here? I think it can be hard for women to trust they would be better off single.
For some women, it’s hard to believe they can rebuild their lives, like fixing up a house, and take care of themselves to be happy again. It’s hard to imagine that in the middle of a big loss. This kind of loss isn’t just about losing someone you loved and spent years with. It’s also about losing the dream you worked on building together.
And so to know that that isn’t possible anymore is heartbreaking. And there’s a lot to be mad about.
Anne: Yeah, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s just safety first in whatever way works for you. I don’t know what that’s going to look like for you. And I don’t know what the safest course of action is. But all I care about is your safety. So how do we assess our emotional, psychological, and intimate safety?
How do we learn to set boundaries. Learning about safety and making safety the priority, I think, is always to use the word safety again, a safe bet. Because you never know what’s going to happen, and it leaves the door open for any opportunity or situation safe.
Emotional Safety When He Won’t Stop Using His Phone Constantly
Anne: My concern is that women often think they’re safe when they don’t understand safety, and haven’t been educated about it much. And so, my concern is to ensure they have the education they need.
Rebecca: Safety builds the foundation for any intimate relationship. Without safety, manipulation can happen because vulnerability increases. Make sure safety comes first to prevent manipulation and abuse. Starting with safety creates a solid beginning for any relationship. Don’t skip that step.
Anne: No, many people are like, Oh, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they set the bar so high. And I’m like, it’s the lowest possible rung. You can’t set it lower. We’ve literally set it at the lowest possible place. I’m not saying he has to be a model, or he has to have an incredible job, or anything like that. No, no, no. I’m just saying he needs to be emotionally and psychologically, financially and spiritually safe. That’s the lowest bar.
Heidi: That’s why identity was such an important part of this as they go through this experience. They learn about themselves, most of all, and how to navigate. Things in a way that keeps them safe and true to their identity.
Important Work To Do
Anne: I’m so grateful that people are starting to do research like this. It’s awesome. Hopefully, people will continue to do more. So thank you so much for your work. It means a lot to all the women in the world. So thank you.
Heidi: Thank you so much for letting us come and share with you. We love women. We’re champions of women.
Anne: I am so grateful for Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones for sharing their studies today. So thank you so much.
Rebecca: Thank you for having us, Anne.
Heidi: And for all the great work that you’re doing.
Why Won’t My Husband Fight For Our Marriage? – Kirsten’s Story
Nov 12, 2024
Does your husband promise you that he will do anything to help heal your marriage from his betrayal, lies, and emotional abuse? Then then doesn’t do anything? “I fight for our marriage, but he doesn’t follow through,” said Kirsten, a member of our community.
Transcript: Why Won’t My Husband Fight For Our Marriage?
Anne: I have Kirsten on the podcast today. I know her personally, and she’s amazing. She’s a member of our community. She is a divorced mom of four, and she’s also an incredible artist and writer. Who likes to write to explore being a real human being breaking through destructive personal and generational patterns. And how handling hard times with humor can make life more palatable.
Kirsten strives to not take herself too seriously. To help balance out the very serious things she’s been through in her life with humor and art and other modes of coping. We’re going to talk about a phrase that she invented. I’m not going to let the cat out of the bag. I’m going to let her set up what this term is and then we’ll have a discussion about it.
So can you talk about the background of this term, first of all?
Kirsten: So a little bit about my personal backstory. I had been about 17 years into my then marriage, and we were about a year into an in house separation. And working on him trying to recover from his addiction. And me trying to recover from 17 years of long term premeditated and fairly disturbing mind games and lies and betrayals.
What Is “Meatloafing”? When He Says He Will Fight For Our Marriage
Kirsten: We were doing an in house separation, and he said that he would do anything to fix the damage that was happening in our marriage. And I believed him. I wanted to believe him when he said he would fight for our marriage. One night he came down from his bedroom that he was staying in and asked me when I would drop my boundary of him Not being able to initiate any physical touch in our marriage.
I reminded him that he had not followed through with the task that he’d been given by his therapist and by our religious leader. That my personal therapist had suggested that I may even need some really specialized therapy to be able to heal. To get back to that point where I’d be comfortable being physically intimate with him.
He asked me how long it would take for me to do this healing. And I said, I don’t, I don’t know. Six months? A year? I don’t know. He let me know that that was too long. That my boundary was impeding his recovery. So, that’s kind of when I knew that that marriage was over.
I’m a pretty visual thinker. I’m an artist. I have a brain full of all kinds of ridiculous cultural references. When he said that, I could see in my head this video and song that came out in the early 90s from this rocker, Meatloaf.
Why Won’t He Do This One Thing To Fight For Our Marriage?
Kirsten: He did this ridiculous video called, I will do anything for love. And I could hear his voice in my head. You know, I can do anything for love, but I won’t do that. I just started laughing and walked out of the room. I’m sure that it appeared very rude to him, but I just, the ridiculousness of it. You know, 17 years of really awful behavior and damage, and he couldn’t give me this. This one thing that I was asking for him to do.
I’m in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, and one day a woman said her partner was not going to do the thing that she had asked him to do. To be able to receive healing in their marriage. That came back to my head and I said, Oh, he’s Meatloafing you.
Of course, you know, I often forget that I’m one of the older members of the community. You probably have to be over maybe 35 to kind of get that reference right away. But he said, what are you talking about? And I said, don’t you remember that song by Meatloaf? I’ll do anything for love, but I won’t do that.
And that just started a whole entire thing of hilarity where we made up memes about Meatloaf and what he would and wouldn’t do. It was fun. And we need the laugh, quite frankly, things can get quite heavy in the community at times. They are all saying I will do anything to fight for my marriage, but in reality won’t do what it actually takes. But it’s a really appropriate term to describe the way that sometimes when addicts try to keep all the things.
I Want To Fight For My Marriage: When Abusers Use The Meatloaf Technique
Kirsten: Why wouldn’t they? They have a loving partner and a family, they’re taking care of all their stuff. Then on the side, they also have their addiction and whatever life they’ve built around that. They’ll say they want to fight for our marriage.” To be able to try and protect that dual life and that addiction.
So you can’t really listen to the things they say. You know, I mean, this meatloaf song is like eight minutes long. It’s ridiculous. I mean, he just goes on and on and on about all these things that he’ll do for her. He’ll go to hell and back. He’ll do, you know, I mean, it’s just, the video is hilarious. And not to mention that, by the way, he’s a monster in the video, but when she gives him love, he turns into a man.
Anne: Oh, wow. The Beauty and the Beast. scenario. Does it ever say what the thing he won’t do is?
Kirsten: Well, in actuality, of course, the song doesn’t really mean that. Because what he means is he won’t cheat on her. He won’t forget her feelings. He’ll do all these things. And then she comes in on her verse and she says, are you gonna cheat on me?
Are you gonna hurt my feelings and break my heart? And he’s like, I won’t do that. So in actuality, the song’s not really as bad as it sounds when we made the meme out of it. But you know, we all have that line in our head from the song, if we’re old enough.
I Will Do Anything For Love, But I Won’t Do That
Anne: Yeah, I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that. A woman in our community, she got her young daughter’s ears pierced in like January? And I don’t know, four months later or something, she sent her daughter to her ex’s house. They were these really expensive stud earrings. And he lost one of the earrings and then he wrote this email that was like this five paragraph manifesto about how could they improve communication and what could he do?
He would do anything to help out, you know, that kind of a thing. She wrote back and said, pay $20 for Sophie’s earring. He wrote this big rant about how he never consented to her getting her ears pierced. There was no way he was going to pay for the earring. But he didn’t bring that up back in January when she had her ears pierced.
So he was like, I will do anything, but there’s no way I’ll pay $20 for a lost earring. And it’s funny the things that they won’t do. When they want to fight for their marriage. Well, they won’t do what they don’t want to do is the thing.
Kirsten: Right. You know, when you speak about serious breaches in trust and contract of a partnership, which, most of our members are married and their partnership is a marriage and, you know, the onus of healing, the broken trust is on the person that broke the trust.
I Tried To Fight For Our Marriage Using Boundaries
Kirsten: So, as the offended partner begins their healing process. And they start to gather their strength and their dignity back around them. Also they have a community that builds them up, they learn about boundaries and they start to put those in place. They’ll begin to set healing tasks and limits on the allowed behaviors for that offending partner.
This is not an attempt to control the partner, this is their attempt to try and fight for their relationship.
Anne: To establish some safety.
Kirsten: Exactly. I mean, because they’ve now realized. That all these things have gone on. My first reaction when I found out the true depth of the betrayal, that had happened in my marriage, was to just leave.
I was done right then. But my attempt to be able to feel safe enough to wait to give him some time to heal and fix his problem. Was to have boundaries in place. That’s the only way I could stay, and keep fighting for our marriage. I wasn’t trying to control him as a person. I just needed that. You know, I needed that for myself.
Oftentimes the offending partner will profess with all kinds of words, all the things that they’re willing to do. They feel so bad. I’ll do anything I can to fix this. And it’s impossible to know if your husband is grooming you. But when they’re actually put to the test, they refuse to engage. They refuse to follow through. That just goes to show you that the old adage that you watch their feet and not their mouth is true.
Anne: Like the, I would do it if you wouldn’t bother me about it. You’ve heard that one before.
He Said He Wanted To Fight For Our Marriage But His Actions Didn’t Match His Words
Anne: Where they’re like, I was about to do it, but now that you reminded me, I won’t be doing it on my own. So just let me do it in my own time.
Kirsten: I don’t like it when you act like my Mom. You’re taking my dignity away. Let me do this in my own time.
Anne: In their own time is never. They’re only saying that to avoid doing the thing.
Kirsten: Why should they get to do anything in their own time? They’re the one that broke the contract. They’re the one that broke the trust. They are the one’s who should fight for our marriage. They really should do anything. I mean, you know, within reason. Most of the women in our community are pretty healthy people. They’re not trying to use this as an opportunity to control their spouse or their partner.
Anne: No, they’re looking for safety and they’re looking for truth. In your situation, did you ever consider your situation to be abuse while you were in this place of knowing about his dangerous behavior. But thinking maybe he could get into recovery when you’re kind of thinking of him as an addict?
Was there ever a time where you were like, wait a minute, I was abused this whole time?
Kirsten: No, it never really crossed my mind. See, one of the things about my situation is I was married before this marriage, very shortly. For 18 months and it was a very abusive, destructive marriage. So to me, anything that wasn’t that was better.
When Victims Begin To Set Limits & Boundaries, Abusers May Start “Meatloafing”
Anytime I start to feel like something might be wrong or my body was like, Oh, I’m uncomfortable. If I would bring it up to my spouse. He would say, yeah, you’re right, something is wrong, you need to go to therapy because you’re broken from your first marriage. I became the kind of person that would just completely take all of it in on myself.
I was sure that everything that was wrong in our marriage was my fault. It wasn’t until I was in my therapeutic disclosure, and this is after a surprise dump disclosure, I thought I knew everything. But after a therapist had helped lead him through. all the things, which, you know, turned in from a five page thing to ten page disclosure.
When I heard some of the very specific things that he did that were so twisted that my brain starts to say, wait a minute, only crazy people do this. Like abusive, crazy, like you see in the lifetime movies, kind of people. Even then, it still took me a good year, year and a half to accept the fact that I was actually severely abused for many, many years.
Anne: Why do you think it’s so easy? Well, not so easy, but easier for women to recognize abuse when they’re in a relationship, like your first marriage? Where the abuse was really obvious compared to how long was your second marriage?
Kirsten: By the time the divorce went through, we’d been married for 20 years.
I Wanted To Keep Fighting For Our Marriage, but I Couldn’t See Through The Fog
Anne: So compared to the second marriage, that was 20 years where the whole time, You’re in this fog of abuse, but you can’t see it, and you’re trying to wrap your head around what’s going on. Why do you think it’s so difficult for women to see this second type of abuse?
Kirsten: Well, I’ve never considered myself a person that could be abused.
I’m not stupid or weak. I’m quite sassy and strong willed. I never thought that anything like that could ever happen to me, and it was very subtle. Very, very subtle and not only that, but I grew up in a family and in a religion where I was groomed. Some people don’t like that term, but it’s true. To turn over my knowing and my will to the patriarch of the home, the husband, the leader of our church, that’s what a good woman does.
So my natural ability to kind of say, Hey, this doesn’t feel right. Just over the years really was squashed. So, you know, never in my brain until like a therapist or a podcast or something would say, Hey, this behavior is abusive. Would I ever think, Oh, you’re right. Putting that label on it, which seems extreme to a lot of people and they really kick against it was enough to clear my brain up from the fog to start to look for more truth.
Anne: Yeah, you mentioned a lot of people kick against the term abuse, especially within the context of addiction. Why do you think so many people are unwilling to say, if you’re in a relationship with an active addict or an active porn user, you are in an abusive relationship? It is an abuse issue. And you have symptoms of betrayal trauma.
He Says He Want’s To Fight To Save Our Marriage But He Sees Me As Subservient
Anne: Why do you think so many people don’t want to go there?
Kirsten: Well, there’s a lot of shame around anything that has to do with it. People don’t like to talk about it. They don’t want to be real about it. They certainly don’t want to talk about anything that has to do with abusive behaviors and sex. The level of shame will make it so people don’t want to talk about it at all.
Let alone slap a label of abuse on it. There’s all this cultural misogyny. That a woman should do what her spouse wants her to do. This is what marital coercion is. Her needs should be subservient to her spouse’s needs. Even things like a woman shouldn’t enjoy it, or she shouldn’t have to worry about feeling safe because it’s just a duty that needs to happen in a marriage.
With all this cultural baggage and all these things generationally that we’re dragging with us as women, it’s just something that we wouldn’t even consider unless it’s, you know, a violent rape, say. You know, but in a marriage context, I mean, we’ve had women in the community that didn’t even realize until they heard somebody else talk about it. That they actually were raped in their own marriage, when I had that experience.
And you just don’t understand what’s going on. You have no context or words for it. You don’t have the vocabulary for it. We weren’t taught that until you get into the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community and learn . The verbiage that you need to be able to start clarifying those things in your head.
Abusers Don’t Think to Ask For Consent: They Feel Entitled To It
Anne: What helps you realize you were raped? I’m guessing multiple rapes.
Kirsten: Well, yeah multiple times. I didn’t understand my body’s fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. I didn’t understand the trauma response. So, I didn’t recognize that those times when I didn’t want to be there doing what he wanted. I would just leave my body so that I could make it through it.
That that was something that would be considered a assault. And there was one specific situation that involved a big production that he had put together almost like a movie. A play that he wanted me to play out. With notes and letters and this big thing where I had to go here and do this and then here and do that. And da da da and ended up in a hotel room and it was a horrendous experience for me.
https://youtu.be/qpinvaj-q2A
Somebody had mentioned, hey, this thing happened to me, I think I was raped by my husband. And I was like, wait, rape? That’s rape? And it just hit me. I was like, that is what I was experiencing that night. I left my body so I wasn’t there, and let him do what he wanted to do. But I didn’t want to be there.
I had not given consent for that experience. But I didn’t know how to say no. I didn’t know I could say no.
Anne: Yeah, and for someone who thinks they’re entitled, to it from their wife because she is an object or she is subservient, then asking for consent is not even on the table either.
Humor and Validation Help Victims of Betrayal & Abuse
Kirsten: Right. If you’ve lived most of your marriage in a place of trauma where you didn’t ever speak up and say, I don’t like this or no, I’m not doing that.
In my case, my then spouse considered that I was into it. You know, he never stopped to question that I might not enjoy it. And he was so good at building up fantasies in his head that he wouldn’t probably have seen or cared to see, that I wasn’t really fully giving consent.
Anne: We have so much that we’ve learned through these experiences and hopefully sharing it can help other women
Kirsten: Yes, and when you learn that, you need things to help you be brave. You need a community around you of women who understand what you’ve gone through. No one has to try and explain everything to them because they already know.
You need people that you can laugh with. I mean you can’t just go over to your next door neighbor and make a joke about marital rape. You can’t do that. It’s totally inappropriate. But sometimes we need to laugh. The absurdity of our situations will hit us. And it’s all you can do. I mean, if you can’t laugh, you’ll die.
If you need to be able to have that picture of Meatloaf singing in your head. While your spouse is trying to give you all the reasons why he can’t do this one thing that you’ve asked him to do. To try and fix the damage that he did, and fight for your relationship. To be able to help you get through that without going crazy, you need that.
Processing Abuse Through Art
Anne: Kirsten is an incredible artist and I want her to talk about her art. And how that has helped her process her trauma and heal from what she has been through.
I had the opportunity to go to her art show with my Mother. We spent, I don’t know, maybe two hours. We spent so long there because every single painting was so touching to me. I read the descriptions and I just sat and pondered it. We didn’t want to leave. We just wanted to stay there and it was one of the best experiences I’ve had viewing art. It really spoke to me, and helped me process my own trauma.
Having had that experience with your art, able to view it and process my own trauma and interpret it in different ways. Can you talk about your art and what it means to you and how it helped you?
Kirsten: You know, sometimes we think, Oh, I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what was happening to me. I have all this trauma stored up in me and I didn’t know how to process it. But the human mind is incredibly flexible and, you know, very able to defend itself against trauma in any way that it can. For me, a way that I didn’t realize, I was doing that before I find out anything about what was happening in my marriage was through art.
Victims of Abuse & Betrayal Deserve Safe Spaces
Kirsten: I was processing the things that were happening in my life through art. I initially had gone to school to be a children’s book illustrator. That’s what I thought I wanted to do. I love that still, but I found myself being drawn to doing a lot of really angsty and introspective self portraits. I laugh sometimes because I think, what am I, a narcissist?
That word is thrown around a lot. I just keep painting myself over and over and over again. I don’t know if you know anything about the artist Frida Kahlo, but she did a lot of self processing through her art as well. A lot of self portraits. I don’t know if I would say that I’m as amazing as she was. But she’s kind of my guide as far as just going ahead and doing what your heart tells you to do as an artist.
The first self portrait that I did was right after my first divorce from my 18 month marriage, and it was surprising to me how cathartic it was to paint the feelings I was feeling. To get them out onto this canvas. That continued through the years. My entire getting married again, being a young mother, and through a very toxic marriage.
I would do these self portraits. Usually, I would have a dream, and the image would be in my head when I would wake up. Then I would go through the process of doing sketches, taking pictures, preparing the work and then making it. I’d always feel better afterwards. I didn’t really realize what I was doing.
While Fighting For My Marriage, I Didn’t Realize How Much I Needed To Heal
Kirsten: Now looking back and having had so much education about , abuse and learning more about trauma and what it does to the body and the brain. I realized that I was releasing a lot of trauma into my paintings. In fact, sometimes I laugh and call my paintings horcruxes because I feel like I’ve cut a piece of my soul out and put it into the painting.
But usually the things that I leave in the painting are things that are good to be leaving. So it’s just a really important way for me to journal my life, to express my feelings and to get something out of my soul.
Anne: I’d like to talk about a couple of specific pieces, if you don’t mind. One of them is this incredible painting of you in a nightgown with a halo in a dirty bathroom.
I really wanted to talk to you about this because I have had so many dirty bathroom dreams. Where I’m in like a stall, the toilet’s overflowing. There’s dirty water on the ground, the sink is overflowing, and it’s just disgusting. I have to figure out how to go to the bathroom in there. This is a recurring dream that I’ve had. And when I saw this painting, I was like, this is straight out of my dream.
I don’t know if this was one that you had a dream about as well. There’s also a chicken in it and a candle.
Kirsten: This was the first painting that I did after my therapeutic disclosure that I went through with my now ex husband and our therapist.
The Fight For My Marriage Reavealed Itself Through Art
Kirsten: In which I heard all the things, all the things that had been happening in my marriage for 17 years. I had read online a call for entry to a show in which they were asking people to do theme specific artwork. It was for a gallery that was in LA and the name of the show was Waterline. They wanted women artists to do works about water and its effect on their lives. I never enter a show that isn’t local, I wanted to be brave.
I kind of had my fists up in a fighting mode after finding out all these awful things. And so I was thinking about what I could do for the show if I was going to enter it and I had a dream that night.
That I was in a old, dirty and for me it wasn’t a bath, it was actually, an abandoned psychiatric hospital. Like from a horror movie, you know, with broken tiles and the old school look of the industrial in the 20s and 30s and drains and yucky, dirty water everywhere. I was, covered in mud with the lines from floods.
You know, when there’s a flood, how it leaves a line of debris on whatever, the building or the edge of the creek or something. There’s a flood and they’ll leave these lines and each line, you know, progressively went up what was representing different traumas that I’d been through in my life. The fight for my marriage, was in those flood lines.
Imagery Of Abuse
Kirsten: It was as if I was there, you know, the, the image already existed. It was created, if you will, spiritually in my head that night. I got up the next morning and I ran to the thrift store and I found a nightgown and I went outside and started dumping myself in mud so that I could take photos to, to draw from for this painting.
And just the process of actually preparing the reference photos, getting this nightgown muddy, getting my arms muddy, taking the pictures was incredibly important to me. It would, if anybody filmed it, be considered a piece of performance art that went along with the painting. But you know, it was a private experience and not something that I wanted documented for everybody to see.
Then when I start putting the imagery together, I had to include a chicken because I love chickens and they’re my girls. So don’t try to ask me to explain it, but the chicken’s like my spirit guide. So that was one of my hens, Penny, my hen, and she was in the painting.
I also included a prayer candle, like you would find in a Catholic church at the altar, I like to use a lot of old Renaissance imagery in my artwork. I just like it. So I put a halo around myself because I felt like not toot my own horn or anything, but sometimes when you go through really traumatic experiences. Especially when they last for a long time, it changes you.
I mean, anything that you can think of. And, and I’m like, yeah, I feel like I’m the saint for fighting for my toxic marriage, or something. So that’s why I included that imagery and it just came pouring out of me. I got the painting done really quickly. I sent it to the show. It did very well there. I’ve won several awards with it. It’s kind of like an icon for me.
Anne: St. Kirsten
Kirsten: Yeah, right..
Anne: Yeah, it was very, I don’t know if shocking is the right word that I would use for me. But because it just spoke to me so deeply of the imagery that I had experienced in my dreams. It’s interesting that the experience of this type of abuse, the details are all different for every woman, but this feeling of we were almost drowning in someone else’s filth.
In a place where we should be safe. Like, yours was a psychiatric hospital. That’s a place where someone should be helping you. You know, technically. In a bathroom, it should be somewhere that you feel safe enough to just, you know, relax, I guess. But instead of that, you’re drowning in someone else’s filth. It is kind of a sanctifying experience.
Unequally Yoked: A Symbol For My Fight For Our Marriage And His Apathy
Kirsten: It leaves marks on you. And those marks don’t go away. They can be transformed, but they don’t go away.
Anne: The title is Flood Damage and that really, really looks like that. It was amazing. There were so many, like every single one I could talk about. Especially your, what are the ones called, Japanese ones, where you put yourself back together with gold?
Kirsten: Kintsugi
Anne: Those really spoke to me. But the second one I’d like to really focus on is called Unequally Yoked. So this is a painting of Kirsten with a yoke and she is yoked on one side.
Kirsten: Yes, yeah. I have my neck in one side of the double yoke.
Anne: Okay. Yeah. And the other one is just empty and she’s pulling this by herself. This one too, it just, I mean every one of your paintings just hit me at my core. But this one I spent so much time just observing and thinking about and processing my own things. Can you talk about this one a little bit?
Kirsten: I did this painting, it’s probably my favorite painting that I’ve ever done, by the way.
It really speaks to me still. I did it in 2018. I was divorced and just start to get back into trying to date. It was a vulnerable time for me. There was a lot of heaviness and loneliness at that time. And again, I’m not quite sure why this happens, but I had a dream about this painting and woke up with the image in my head already.
Yoked With Abuse
Kirsten: So I couldn’t find a yoke to make the painting. When I did the reference photos, I put a very heavy beam of wood over my shoulders so that I could get that sense of weight and heaviness. I just have so much grief over the fact that I had two partners who were supposed to be my forever companion. In which that didn’t happen, and not only did it not happen, but I carried the brunt of the emotional work I carried the fight for our relationship. I carried their shame.
Now I carry the weight of being a single mom and trying to deal with the damage that’s happening to my children. I just felt it so heavily. I think that it just needs to come out in this image. And you know in the scriptures, Jesus talks about a yoke and he says that his yoke is is easy and his burden is light. That if you’ll yoke yourself to him, you can make it through the things in life.
But the yoke also connotes being tied to something. When you yoke yourself to something, that double yoke of the ox and team, you can’t move unless they’re moving. And if they don’t move, you have to drag them. So there was a lot of feelings and symbolism in that for me. Then I put fig leaves around in the background to kind of represent some things that I feel about partnership, the Garden of Eden and that story of creation.
Emotional Release With A Painting
Kirsten: Then I also added a, a wedding ring in the background. To symbolize the fighting for my marriage. I had a ton of feelings come out while I was painting this painting. Many times I actually had to stop and put it away because I would just start crying and I couldn’t see the panel I was working on.
I would just have to put it away. But I think you can feel that when you look at the painting. One of the cool things about seeing artwork in life as opposed to just a picture online. You can really feel the feelings that were poured into a piece.
Anne: That is what is incredible about excellent art, is that you painted it and put in the work. But it seemed like it was painted just for me. And for all the members of our community who can imagine that feeling of being unequally yoked, and then having to carry the burden of the lack of a partner, I was fighting alone for my marriage.
I really appreciate your art and your talent. And so many women have gone through this and they’re, so incredibly talented and you are one of those amazing talented women. Here is her website so you can look at the paintings yourself www.kirstenbeitler.com
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Helps Victims Identify “Meatloafing” & Other Abusive Tactics
Anne: I would really encourage you to go take a look at her artwork. Hopefully it will speak to you as it spoke to me. Can you talk a little bit about how the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group has helped you to heal?
Kirsten: Absolutely. This community, this idea of community and sisterhood is one of the things. I’m not exaggerating that I say actually saved my life and my sanity. It started for me when I don’t know how this happened. I wasn’t looking for it, I was just online looking how to fight for our marriage and save our marriage, and then suddenly it was there in front of me.
It was a tender mercy from God. The loving compassion I felt because you all knew exactly what I was going through. I didn’t have to say anything or do anything. I am enfolded in love.
And from those groups came some of the best and truest friends that I’ve ever had in my life. They saved me. They walked with me through horrendous things. And I’ve been able to be there for them too.
Finding BTR filled so many holes in my heart because I didn’t feel like a freak anymore. I didn’t feel alone. There was at least one woman whose story was so similar to mine that I knew, okay, this isn’t just because of me. This isn’t just because of how broken I am. This is happening to other people too.
It was such a relief. It was such a relief to me. Not that you would ever want anybody to go through that, like you did, but just to know that it’s not because of you. I’m always grateful for the BTR community where something horrible is turned into something holy.
The Fight Four Our Marriage Led Me To Clearing Up The Fog Of Abuse
Anne: Yeah, it’s amazing how much our Shero community has evolved over the years. We’ve all evolved together to be like, that didn’t work, right? Like, Oh, he may be an addict. There’s no question about that. But what we were experiencing the entire time was abuse. We didn’t know that back then. Sometimes because we are focusing on fighting for our marriage, we don’t realize how much we are suffering.
It’s so nice to come out of the fog and be able to define it and help other women so that they don’t have to go through the, you know, 10, 20 year process, seven, however long it was process of figuring that out. Figuring out how long to continue the fight for our marriage.
Kirsten: Oh my goodness. And thousands and thousands of dollars worth of therapy and agony.
Anne: The cool thing is because we’re all together now and because we’re continuing our healing journey together. We are still evolving and we still don’t know what we don’t know, right? We still are there for each other and when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany.
The Fight For My Marriage Turned Into A Fight For Women Experiencing Abuse
You know, it’s like, oh, why didn’t we think of that before? So it’s a really amazing community to be a part of, to see it evolve. Because our true desire is for safety, truth and peace. We are evolving to be more gentle with each other and more kind and more understanding. Yet also more fierce in our boundaries and more fierce in our belief in ourselves and what we deserve and that we are worth it.
So it’s, it’s a mix of like, amazing bravery and also this incredible vulnerability at the same time. That to me is just the most amazing army of healthy women who can help bring other women out of the fog of abuse.
Kirsten: Absolutely. You know, none of us are perfect. We’re all still learning. We’re learning from each other every day. There are so many people that have so many different opinions about everything, but still working together. To try and clear everybody’s mind, you know. We can come out healed, and it can happen, and it does happen every day.
Anne: Well, thank you for sharing parts of your story and some of your talent, especially with your Meatloaf metaphors. And your, fight for your marriage. You’re amazing, Kirsten. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
When Your In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive Too – Tanya’s Story
Nov 05, 2024
If your in-laws enable emotional abuse, you’re not alone. Tragically, this is an extremely common occurrence for victims. Tanya shares her heartbreaking story of living through financial, physical, and emotional abuse – all while her in-laws enable her abuser.
Transcription: When Your In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive Too
Anne: I have a member of the BTR community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Tania. I recorded this a few years ago.
Welcome, Tanya.
Tanya: Thank you so much for having me.
Originally, I’m from Africa, but I moved to Canada when I was 16 years old. And I was young, my first time living without my parents. In our culture, we’re not supposed to marry out of the African community. But he was a football player. He moved to Canada from Africa to play a minor league, and when we met, it was pure bliss to meet someone like him. Because I came from a society that men are very, I can say, machos.
Peer Pressure & Relationship Continuation
Tanya: I had a couple family members involved in a very abusive relationship. And for me, it was easy to recognize, but I couldn’t break it off right away. Because it would be like dumb of me. So I had to get to know him and see what was going on.
Anne: When you say dumb of you, why did you think at the time it would be dumb of you to break it off?
Tanya: Because I thought that I didn’t give him a chance.
Tanya: I had friends around me also that were like, you need to get to know him better so that you can make that decision. So I felt like because of the peer pressure that I had around me.
Anne: So people are saying you can’t just judge him right off the bat. Because you need to get to know him better. How does it progress from there?
Tanya: At that time I was only 18 years old. Also it was the first time living in a different country by myself. I was just like, okay, I can make my boundaries. Because I’m not married to him and he’s not really like my boyfriend. Additionally I have my apartment and I don’t have to go to his house.
Long-Distance Relationship Challenges
Tanya: But that summer, he got laid off from football, so he had to move back to the United States where there is another league that wanted him. I just felt like, yeah, he’s moving back to the United States. Also he’s an American. I just thought, yeah, our relationship is done.
I don’t have to pursue that relationship anymore, but we reconnected again and we start dating. Then he decided, oh, do you want to come to visit? I said, yes.
I just felt like, oh, I can rescue him for some reason, I just thought like, I can talk to him. Maybe influence him in a better way because the difference between me and him in what I felt like it was too wild. He was a football player, but I just started noticing differences amongst our values and whatever I believed about family.
When I came to visit him here in the United States, I just told him, I don’t, think this is going to work. One, because I’m just starting to see that our personalities don’t really go together.
First Major Incident Of Anger
Tanya: And right away I saw this anger come out of him. I couldn’t believe so I grabbed my phone and called my friend. I said, he is angry. In fact he shows anger that I don’t think I can deal with. My friend said, again, I think you’re judging him for just one time situation.
You are in his country. So you should chill out and calm down. He’s a good candidate for marriage. He would speak to my friends about marriage, saying he would like to marry me. That I’m a good person. That he likes me because I am not like this American woman. Instead, they’re more into material things, and I’m very grounded. So my friend said, you know, I think you should try it.
First Major Incident Of Physical Abuse
Tanya: He asked me to marry him. My friends threw a big engagement party. I left my job, left my apartment, my car, I moved to the United States.
And that time his friend was also married with a woman from Columbia. She said, oh, let’s go to brunch. When we were at the brunch, it was only two hours. We took a long time to come home, because our car stopped and we were looking for someone to help us see what was going on with the car. He was calling me, was calling me, was calling me. It took us three hours to get back home.
As soon as we get back home, he pushes my phone. Then he throws the phone on the floor and grabs my computer. After that, he throws the computer on the ground. So everything is broken. My friend said, Tanya, what are you going to do now? Because you already accept this man proposal. So now do you want to return to Canada? What’s everyone going to say?
Anne: Where’s your friend from
Tanya: A couple of them were Canadians.
When Your In-Laws Enable Emotional Abuse
Anne: Would you say, where you’re from in Africa, that this was a cultural thing? That men just get mad and it’s no big deal?
Tanya: It’s pretty common, but it depends also on the family you came from, because my family were not like that. Meeting him and his family and seeing the manipulation. Especially the way they speak and silent treatment. Then I already knew that this marriage was not supposed to happen. Because it was something I’ve never experienced, and it goes back to this.
Exploitative Material: Abuse In & Of Itself
Tanya: Pornography was something that I never heard, not in my house as I was growing up. Even with my friends in Canada. Because we never spoke about it.
But when I returned to the United States, he had invited me to my in-laws home in Chicago. Then sleeping downstairs in their basement, he had this stuff. Because he wanted to watch, I was shocked. And then I said, no, your family is from Africa. How come you have this inside your parents’ home?
Coercing the Victim Into Viewing exploitative Material At In-Laws Home
Tanya: This is not supposed to happen. I was so shocked that he had something like that inside his parents’ home. But I guess he was hiding, and he’s like, let’s watch. I said, no, I cannot watch it. Because I’m a Christian, so I can’t watch it.
He was very angry again. He said, There are so many women that would like to be with me. because I’m an American football player and I played for NFL. Including this team, also that team. And do you know how many women would like to be in your place right now? You’re telling me no? It’s just sex.
I said, no. For me, it’s not just. No, I cannot do this.
https://youtu.be/UD5nwqHXjuo
And we broke up. We stopped talking for three or four days. But mind you, I’m already here in the United States. We’re already preparing for this marriage. What will I tell people that I’m breaking up because of this? Because I found it in his parents basement? I felt like everyone around me was just trying to invalidate me? Because I found this guy that plays NFL, I guess it is a big thing.
And I also noticed that he was able to get me as an African, I guess, humble and naive. That would bend to whatever it is that he wanted to. And the abuse was not just based on just this. It escalated to almost everything, not just from him, but also from his family members.
Her Emotionally Abusive In-Laws
Anne: So his psychological abuse, isn’t just coming from him. But he’s also roping your in-laws into emotionally abusing you and coercing you.
Tanya: Exactly. The emotional abuse from my in-laws was, How can you speak up? Who are you? How dare you go out there and speak up? This is our son. He’s been doing so great. He plays football so well.
He’s successful. You’re supposed to be lucky that you have him in your life. Now you’re coming to us, telling us that he’s abusive, that he calls you names. That he takes stuff away from you. Because he took my green card. He took my Canadian citizenship. He would take bank cards. Throughout our marriage, I did not have access to any finances.
Anne: So you ended up marrying him, then.
Tanya: This time that I left him would be my third time leaving him.
Anne: So talk about the first couple of times you left.
Tanya: The abuse was also from my in-laws. I would call my in-laws, I said next time he asks me to do any kind of behavior that I don’t want to. I’ll call the police. Because how can I have it with my husband, and he calls me the B word? I’m not going to do that. And when I started speaking up, the family didn’t like it. My in-laws emotionally abused me by blaming me. They would say, “No, it’s you. You have a big mouth. You speak too much.”
Coercion & Leaving Involving In-Laws In The Abuse
I went upstairs and put my son to bed. Then he says, “You have to know that this marriage is between me and you. And if you want me to be closer to you, you have to understand. There are certain things that a wife should do.”
I said, “What?”
He says, “First off, we need to start with sex. If you can give me this. I can go downstairs and speak to my mom to stop.”
Anne: Wow, so coercion right there. Yeah, in that moment he’s coercing you.
Tanya: And I left him. My son was only three months at that time. He wasn’t calling, he wasn’t contacting, which for me was fine. Because I have already gone through so much with him. And no support around me.
In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive By Convincing Victims to Stay
Tanya: His dad calls me. I completely understand what you’re talking about. I want to apologize, but we are Christians, and you have to understand you guys are married. We don’t believe in divorce. And I don’t want you to raise a son without a father.
I promise you that I’ll take him to a marriage counselor. He’ll do therapy, and I’ll be beside you. I just don’t want you to tell anybody. Please come back, I am here and I’ll support you. I said, I don’t want to come back. Because it’s been almost a year, and I haven’t seen any support from any of you. I feel like you guys are blaming me for whatever is going on. And I don’t even understand what was going on. That was the first time, and they begged, and he asked, and I came back.
In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive By Accusing Victims of “Ruining” the Abuser’s Life
Tanya: Three months after me being back, he was starting again, verbally abusing me. It was just a cycle, verbally abusing me. No one will believe you. You just came back from Canada. I know it’s something with you. You want to return here to destroy my career. I said, but your dad promised me. So I stayed for another three years.
Anne: Yeah, that’s common. My in-laws emotionally abused me by telling me that I was trying to ruin her son’s life. And I was like, what are you talking about? I’m trying to save our marriage. But the in-laws accusation, You’re trying to harm our son.” Is what a lot of in-laws say.
Tanya: My in-laws said, I was trying to destroy his career. I was trying to destroy his family. But it was because he was having an affair with a woman from his gym. And not just one. There was multiple.
Anne: And your in-laws knew about the abuse and they still blamed you?
Tanya: My in-laws knew about the abuse. His mom blames me. He would watch it in front of me. He would sleep outside the home.
Coercion Is Easier For Abusers When In-Laws Enable It
Tanya: He completely isolated me from everyone at this time. Now, I wasn’t even able to contact my family members. Because I started to feel so ashamed.
So my family practically, they wash their hands. My in-laws enable him to continue to abuse. I was home with my son, worried about COVID. He had this cough that we’re afraid of. It was so congested. And he wouldn’t give me the car keys or money to take my son to the hospital. That day, he came home at one o’clock in the morning. Me and my son were sleeping, and he comes upstairs. He didn’t take a shower, and he wants to jump in bed.
And I told him, no, you can’t. My son also looks at him and says, “No, you can’t”. And he says, This is my home, this is my bed, I’ll sleep here. I said, No, you can’t. And I stood up off the bed, and as I was walking, he came behind me. He starts doing like thrusting movement. And I push him.
And he calls me B word the S word. Nobody wants me. Nobody likes me, I am nothing. Look at me znd look at him as a football player. Everybody wants to be with him.
I said, go, I don’t care what women would like to be with you. But I will not stand you talking to me like that anymore. Never again, not in front of my son. And he says, listen, tonight we’ll see who’s going to live. My son started crying, and I grabbed my son. I went to another room and closed the door. I run outside and he comes behind me.
Incident Leading To Arrest
Tanya: He grabs my night down and pushes the night ground, and I grab a picture frame and throw the picture frame in his head. He calls the police. The police came in and they said, what happened? I start to explain, and he says, even my son saw her throwing the picture frame on me.
In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive By Shaming & Guilting Victims Into Staying
Tanya: In jail, I felt this peace coming over me. I know God took me out, of the situation. Because all these years, I was not ever, ever able to explain to anyone what was going on. When I went to church, I told them, “Listen. This is what he does sexually.
This is what he says. Yes, I am his wife. But how can a wife have be with her husband that does those things? That calls her names. How can I do that?”
Everyone that I went to, they were like, “You have to try. You have to save your marriage.” The more I tried, the more he was abusing me. In fact the more I cleaned the home, became more submissive, and dressed up, he was more abusive. I didn’t speak to my family. The more I didn’t go to his place of work, the more I stayed home. Anything I tried, it was abuse.
To the point where I was starting to develop hives all over my body. I was starting to develop anxiety. Anyone who would come to my home and knock on the door would have these panic attacks. When I went to jail, everything stopped. I stayed in jail for three days. I didn’t have any panic attacks.
Finding Help To Get On My Feet
Tanya: When I came out of jail, I didn’t have a place to go. Because again, he isolated me from anything that I know, everybody that I know. I couldn’t go home.
One of the moms called, and she told me, I want to invite you to bring your son. Let’s play soccer, go to the beach. Let’s do something. I said, please help me. Also, I just came out of jail and she says, where are you? I told her where I was. Right away, she came to pick me up. And took me to her home. I stayed there for almost a month.
After a month, I had to find a place to go. Shelters helped me with food and lawyers. Also people that I can talk to to help me with my case. I’m here, I haven’t gone home yet, and our case is still going on. He was fighting to take custody of my son for almost a month. I wasn’t allowed to see my son. My lawyer actually helped me recover the custody. So now we have 50/50.
Anne: Okay.
Tanya’s Current Living Situation
Anne: You’re staying in an apartment with the help of the domestic violence shelter now.
Tanya: Yes, and since I have been here in this apartment, he’s been trying to contact me. He’s telling me he doesn’t want to get a divorce, and that he’s sorry. He’s telling me that he doesn’t know why he has been behaving the way he does. But I still have this confusion in my head. Outside, everyone sees him as this wonderful man.
He’s a coach. He’s a leader in our community. He volunteers at my son’s school. He helps his clients develop this positive attitude about themselves. About their bodies, minds, and soul. But at home, he was so disrespectful to me. That I lost myself.
Confusion & Grooming Tactics
Tanya: After me going to jail, for me to be where I am, for him to say he wants to go back with me. That he doesn’t want to get a divorce, I am still confused. I am still lost.
Anne: Well, he does not want to lose control. When he says those things, that’s grooming. He’s trying to groom you back to be with him. Because he does not want to lose control over you.
Tanya: Yes, I’m not important to him, because he has never done anything to make me feel important. He thinks that I am only worthwhile to take care of our son. Also have it with him, clean the home, cook, and do whatever he needed to do with me.
Anne: So in this confusion, are people helping you see through that? Because it is a really hard time to think, maybe he does care or maybe he will change or something like that, and that’s a dangerous time because he’s never shown any evidence of doing that. Is it easy for you to see it as grooming, or is it still so traumatizing and confusing?
Seeking Support & Counseling
Tanya: I’m speaking to a counselor, and she’s helping me. She’s saying, listen, you can’t speak to him. You can’t return to his home or gym. You cannot speak to your in-laws. He has a restraining order on me.
Anne: Despite that, he’s contacting you to try and get you to talk to him?
Tanya: He’s the one who’s contacting me. He’s the one who calls me. He invited me to a staycation and wants to buy me stuff. He keeps asking me if I need anything. I blocked him from my phone, but he’s still wanting that communication. And another part of the confusion just comes, maybe this fact of me going to jail. Maybe something clicked in his mind, and me filing for divorce, I keep going back and forth.
Thoughts On Abuse & Survival
Anne: These similar thoughts go through every woman’s head who is faced with this. Do I just put up with the abuse? What alternative do I have? Am I going to be homeless? Am I going to have my son? However, you are not crazy. The only thing that these types of thoughts prove is that you are a victim of abuse. This is how victims of abuse think.
Tanya: Yeah, I have a seven year old and I have nobody, and I just filed for divorce. I have no finances and depended on him. I wasn’t allowed to take any courses, any going to school, any training, nothing.
For almost everything and anything. So I am very sure. Because I know my lawyer told me that he denied my request for child support and alimony. So I’m sitting down here and still waiting. Until when will I continue to live in a shelter? Now, my question is, do I return to Canada? And even if I return to Canada, am I going to take my son with me?
I cannot continue to be in a shelter having 50/50 percent of custody. I don’t have financial means to take care of my son. And you have to remember I don’t have my green card in order to get a good job.
Trying To Pick Up The Pieces
Anne: What does your lawyer say about the circumstances right now?
Tanya: She’s helping, trying to regain all my documentation that he has taken away from me. He actually insists I should go and take a psychological evaluation. When he asked for my son’s custody. He wanted me to do that. My lawyer said no.
Just the simple fact that she doesn’t have her documentation. And all this year, she hasn’t been able to go see her family. There are proofs. So no, we’re going to continue to support you. We’ll continue to listen to you. And we’re going to get something for you to survive, for you to help your son.
And I think this is where he knows. That I am that vulnerable that I’m going to want to get help from him. So that my head would go back. And say, oh, listen, I don’t have anyone here and life is really hard out there.
Anne: Yeah, you’re in an extremely vulnerable situation, but you can get out of it.
Plea For Support When You’re In-Laws Are Part Of The Problem
Anne: It’s going to take time and effort, and it’s so hard. And probably seems impossible. But I just want all our listeners who are listening to pray for Tanya? She needs us. She has nothing and needs our help. They do have family, they still feel that sense of like nobody believes me. I can’t figure out how to fix this. And they feel stuck. So that feeling of being stuck is something that’s familiar to all of our listeners. We can empathize with you.
Tanya: But I think the impossible part is that I feel like nobody’s listening. No one is listening. No one cares that no one wants to believe me. I also feel like, should I even pray? Because the times I went to church and spoke to them, and having counseling in the church. They kept pushing me back to that place of abuse. I keep having that picture of him masturbating in front of me, of him completely disregarding me in that way.
Anne: That’s extreme coercion, psychological and emotional abuse that you’re experiencing. It is mind boggling to me that people think that this is not an abuse issue. Or that their husband’s use does not affect women. Or that somehow their infidelity is like just something that men do. Also, that it’s not an absolutely debilitating abuse to their spouse is crazy to me.
Most Harm From Coercion
Anne: It’s interesting to me that in telling your story, you’ve been verbally abused. You’ve been psychologically abused, you’ve mentioned that several times. So one of the most traumatic things for you was the expolitative material. And people might be like, well, that wasn’t a big deal. He punched you. And you’re like, the thing most traumatizing was the sexual coercion abuse and infidelity is abuse.
Tanya: It’s because I feel that if it wasn’t the inappropriate behavior. Meaning the infidelity, watching it, just having a woman at his disposal. It was the main aspect of the abuse. Because if I have access to these women, if they’re looking in front of me. Then when I come home, what do I need you for, but to be angry with you?
Not to respect you, to call you the names that I can call you. I really do believe the coercion for me was a very, very big thing. Very big part of my abuse in my marriage. I really do believe that.
I came across your podcast listening to all the stories and they resonate with me so much. That my in-laws enabled the abuse.
I feel very sad and lost. But, I believe I will come out of this strong.
You’re Not Alone
Anne: There are thousands of listeners to this podcast. And so just little old you, little Tanya, who thinks no one is listening. And that nobody cares, you’ve now just told your story to thousands of women.
You’ve listened to us on the podcast. We’ve been this, hopefully, light in the darkness, but in this moment, right now, we’re all here with you. I hope you can feel our love and support for your emotional abuse. Across the world, we are here with you in sisterhood and we will hope that God provides a miracle for you.
Because not knowing where your next meal is going to come from. Not having any control over where you’re living, no money and no support system. Is a completely overwhelming situation. But I do know that God sees you. He’s listening now. He loves you and we love you. You have to fight.
Tanya: Yes, yes, it is. It is crazy and it’s scary and it’s lonely. But I do have my son and I do have this podcast that I have been listening to and it just made me feel. I am not alone.
Anne: You are incredible and brave and strong. You are amazing and I’m proud of you for coming on this podcast and sharing your story. When you don’t have a happy ending, yet.
Tanya: To anyone that is listening. I don’t want to go back to that man. I would like to have my son with me. To everyone, send me that energy. That strength and courage to please make me be strong. Not to go back in the hands of that man. Because I never knew rest until I went inside of that jail. I’m asking to please pray for me.
Tender Heart
Anne: We are with you. We will pray for you, Tanya. Thank you for being so brave and sharing your story.
I want to thank everyone for listening. My heart is really tender right now. Not just Tanya’s story, but the mini stories that I’ve heard. And if you’d like to spend time with women who get it. With women who can sit with you in pain and totally understand. Because they’ve been in a similar situation.
Please attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group session. You can attend one today. We built our BTR group sessions for this situation. So no woman out there. It feels like she’s alone. It’s the least expensive, appropriate option out there. And it’s unlimited live support multiple sessions a day. In every single time zone. We’d love to see you in a session today.
5 Ways To Spot Narcissistic Abuse – Rachel’s Story
Oct 29, 2024
If you’re experiencing narcissistic abuse, know that you’re not alone. Here are 5 ways to spot narcissistic abuse – Rachel shares her story.
Anne: I have Rachel and Megan Wilford on today’s episode. They are cousins, and they also recently started podcasting and their podcast is called the Traumedy Show. Which is of course, a mix of trauma and comedy. Welcome Rachel and Megan.
Rachel: Thank you so much for having us. We’re so excited to be here with you.
Megan: Thank you.
Narcissistic Abuse: Discovering A Secret Life
Anne: When I first found out that my husband was using explicit material, and that he had this secret life that I didn’t know about, we just had a baby. I think if I had not had children, then my life would have taken kind of a different turn at that point.
But because I had a child. Also because he was saying, “I’m going to go to a pornography addiction recovery.” I thought okay, I’ll try and work this out because we’ve got a kid.
Comedy As A Coping Mechanism For Narcissistic Abuse
Anne: Anyway, instead of, starting podcasting about that at that time, I actually started a comedy blog called Coming To Grips.
I got a lot of followers, which was fun, but I never wrote about what was actually happening. So I was processing my pain through the lens of comedy. I think a lot of comedians do that. I’ve since pulled it from the internet. When my book comes out, I will be simultaneously publishing my comedy blog. So people can kind of read them side by side, to be like, okay, this is what was really happening. And then this is how she was kind of . . .
Anne: This is the public face that I was showing online. I was telling people in person, but I wasn’t really publishing online about it.
Megan: Processing it.
The Traumedy Show Came Out Of Narcissistic Abuse
Rachel: I love what you just shared about using comedy to process what you were going through. Because that’s what we do too. I think we would say that we come from a family of traumedians. We have a big family and we all lean into dark humor and laugh a lot. We’re a bunch of jokesters.
When my life started blowing up, I definitely was leaning into comedy about it pretty quickly. The day that I left my ex-fiance, I started dreaming about what I could do with my whole story. Coming up with one liners about it. I was thinking about like a standup comedy set, just dreaming big.
Then I ended up getting into another relationship in the winter. About six months after, that also imploded in a similar way. And for about a week after that relationship ended, I was in this really crazy creative processing mode. Where I was writing all the time and I was so mad and all these words were coming to me.
Then all of a sudden I lost it. Like it was like a cord was cut and I started asking God, okay, where can I channel this now? So I started creating our podcast all day long, came up with the artwork, came up with the name.
I invited Megan over and sat her down and pitched it to her and she was down for it. That’s how the podcast came to be.
Anne: Let’s start with that.
Five Ways To Spot Narcissistic Abuse
Anne: This episode is called Five Ways to Spot Narcissistic Abuse. So as Rachel tells her story, I’m going to flag the things that indicated, hey, this is a situation that is emotionally dangerous, that is psychologically dangerous. So I’ll be pointing those out as she shares her story.
Can you start at the beginning? How did your relationship start? Did you recognize any red flags at first?
Rachel: I would say that there were red flags from the beginning, but I started dating him really young. I was 17 and he was 20 and he was from my same hometown. We had never met before, but he friended me on Facebook. It was back in the day when everybody was just kind of friending everybody on Facebook.
But we quickly started talking and quickly started dating. I’m 29 now. I was with him for about 10 and a half years. Just as a spoiler alert, there’s two engagements in this story too, with him. Yeah, wait.
Anne: Can’t wait.
Rachel: Good. So, I would say pretty early on I started spotting lying and hiding things.
1st Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: Making You Think Something Is An Accident
Rachel: He pretty quickly put me and his ex in a group chat accidentally a couple of months into our relationship.
Anne: “Accidentally?” Do you think it was on purpose now?
Rachel: No. He had a lot of technological blunders over the course of our relationship. That kind of led to me finding things out and the demise of the whole thing.
Anne: Maybe that’s going to be number one red flag. I’m going to say here that they do things on purpose sometimes. And they make you think it’s an accident. That’s not your case, Rachel. Sorry, I’m not trying to be like, no, you don’t know what you’re talking about. That’s not what I’m trying to say. In your specific case it was an accident .
But in general, they’re strangely the stupidest smart people or like the smart stupid people. Victims have a really hard time because they’re like, for how smart he is, why is he doing this? I want to just maybe throw out the idea that one of the things you can look for is that dissonance.
When you’re like, wait, if they’re so smart, why are they doing this thing? In so many cases, it’s actually on purpose to throw people off, to get people confused.
Teaming Up With The Other Woman
Rachel: This girl on our podcast, I call her Natasha and there’s more to the story with her. But since our podcast came out, she actually came on and I interviewed her. She reached out to me and she and I are now friends 11 years later. It’s pretty awesome. There’s a lot of teaming up with the other woman that happened since our podcast.
Yeah. So he puts Natasha and I in a group chat and so she and I have each other’s numbers. He sends a picture of him snowboarding and then a couple of months later, both to me and her.
Anne: So is he intending to send it to both of you? Who did he intend to send it to?
https://youtu.be/ZvQwP2Hzjfk
Rachel: He was intending to send it to both of us, he didn’t have an iPhone. He had like a Windows phone. He didn’t realize that if you sent it in the same thread, it would go in a group chat at the time. A couple months later, it’s my 18th birthday and he cheats on me with her.
He drives down to San Diego to pick her up from the airport. The next day on my 18th birthday, I get a text from her, since she now has my number, that he came down, picked her up and made a move on her. And they kissed, all this stuff.
2nd Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: I’m Going To Give Him Another Chance
Rachel: I end up breaking up with him at that time. Then I ended up getting back together with him a week later. I wish that I never had. Staying broken up when you are a victim of narcissistic abuse would’ve been better.
Anne: This is a crossroads for you. What did he say to groom you to get back together with him?
Rachel: Good question.
Anne: Maybe this is another red flag. So number one, they do things on purpose when you think they do them accidentally. Number two, There’s a point at which you notice, hey, something really bad happened. But also I’m going to give him a second chance.
So many women have this story where they found out he was having an affair. Or they found out he was stealing money from them. Or they found out he’d hidden a camera in their bedroom or something like that.
Rachel: Yeah, he definitely was kind of promising me that it was nothing. She just was somebody that needed help. It was nothing. They hadn’t been talking, but she had said that he’d been sending her pictures and stuff this whole time. Texting her and communicating. In that conversation, he did threaten suicide when he drove away.
So I would say that you could think that maybe that’s a red flag too.
Feeling Stuck & Isolated
Rachel: So over the course of a week, I took some time apart and then I decided to give him another chance. You know, and this was 11 years ago now. I went off to college, the next year is my freshman year of college.
So we were long distance and then something happened to me while I was there. That I, you know, haven’t shared publicly, but it bonded him and I. It made it hard for me to leave for a long time. I ended up coming home from college and went to community college and he ended up coming home too.
We were both in our hometown again. I was working a job at Starbucks, going to school. I had an internship, and was very busy. Then I found out about a virtual affair he was having with an old friend of mine. I started noticing some suspicious behavior online.
Anne: An old friend of yours.
Rachel: Yes.
Anne: But not an old friend of his?
Rachel: No. An old friend of mine. Yep.
Anne: And I’m guessing he met her the same way he met you through social media.
Weird Online Behavior Can Be A Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse
Rachel: Yes, he told me that he met her because she worked at a restaurant in town. He went to pick up food and that was the first time that he met her. But he friended her on Facebook and Instagram and I started fishing around for information. Because I ran into her on campus one time, because she went to the same community college at the time and her behavior was super weird.
I was noticing weird online behavior and so I went searching and found messages between the two of them. And that was devastating and embarrassing and a lot of shame for me. Especially because it was somebody from my life that I had known and we knew a lot of mutual people. I felt a lot of shame about that, but I felt really stuck and like I couldn’t leave.
Anne: Were you living together?
Rachel: We were not living together at that time.
Anne: It’s his fault that you felt stuck. Not feeling like you were able to leave is a sign of narcissistic abuse. And we’re putting 100 percent of the fault on him. So this is not like a victim blaming question, but can you kind of explain that feeling of being stuck?
The majority of our listeners share children with their abuser. And so in that way, it’s very difficult to extricate yourself. So those of us with kids, when we hear people who don’t have kids saying they feel stuck. We’re like thinking oh, what was it? But then I want all the listeners to think about when you stayed with him, when you didn’t have kids. Like when you got married, we also were stuck at some point.
So to have empathy for that all around.
Blaming Problems On Self Instead Of Narcissistic Abuse
Rachel: Yeah, and I totally empathize with people that have kids. With their abuser, it’s really hard to break away. I’m fortunate that that wasn’t the case for me. There were a few reasons that I felt stuck. I think this event that bonded us really tied me to him. He was a big support system for me. I considered him my best friend.
I think I really isolated myself during this time of my life and kind of removed myself from friendships. Because of this narcissistic abuse cycle that was going on with him. Because of this shame spiral that I was in from his infidelities. He was kind of my person at this time. Um, and also there was this sense of I just moved home with this person. We were kind of like starting this new chapter and journey together back home.
I didn’t want it to all be for nothing. That I just left school and changed paths. I put a lot of the blame on myself because I had been depressed. Because of what had happened my freshman year of college.
He put some blame on me too. At the time of what you weren’t giving me enough attention and whatever. This happens with narcissistic abuse. So this becomes a pattern for the next eight years of our relationship. This becomes a pattern of, I need to work on myself so that I can be better and he won’t do these things.
This kind of is when I think this starts.
Anne: It’s my fault, and if I were acting differently, he would not be acting like this way. This is a sign of narcissistic abuse, where you to think it’s your fault, when it’s not.
First Engagement & Family Concerns
Rachel: Yeah, so a couple years goes by. And we get engaged the first time on a family trip to Machu Picchu. Actually of all places, he comes and he proposes to me on New Year’s Day. At this point I am 22 and I’m a senior in college. I’d been living down in San Diego, going to San Diego State for the past couple of years. I was about to graduate.
We were looking at apartments. We were planning our wedding and getting ready to start life. At this point there hadn’t been any signs of infidelity in a couple of years.
Anne: Is this with your family, like your parents and your brothers and sisters? Okay, how do they feel about him at this time?
Rachel: My dad had actually had a chat with me, a couple of years prior, that he was worried. And didn’t think that this person was right for me. He saw some signs that definitely gave him pause. And I think my family accepted him, but they didn’t love him for me. For sure.
Anne: What’s your feeling about your family feeling this way. Did it kind of accidentally bond you closer to him? Which it does with so many abusers. Because then it’s like well, it’s just you and me against the world sort of a feeling.
Rachel: Absolutely. That’s a really good way to describe it. It made me protective. I would say of him too. And yeah, accidentally bonding me closer to him. This kind of like fierceness of like, we’ll prove them wrong kind of a thing.
3rd Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: Isolation
Anne: Yeah. So we’re going to call that number three. When something happens where you start to pull away from healthy people that care about you. Because narcissistic abuse includes isolating you from your loved ones.
Rachel: Oh yeah, I was definitely isolated. So we are planning this wedding. I’m about to graduate college and I graduate. And then all of a sudden his behavior starts getting really fishy and weird. He’s kind of just MIA all of a sudden. And one day I’m at his parents house with him. He goes to the bathroom.
I look on his phone and there are texts with him and a coworker.
He had at this point started an emotional affair, we’ll call this person Grace. I’m distraught. We are at this point, like four months away from our wedding. We start going to couples counseling and all sorts of things.
I’m trying to make it work. I’m trying to hold together this image for my family and friends that nothing’s wrong. Ultimately it blows up and we call off our wedding, but I tell no one the real reason why.
The Downfall Of Couples Therapy With Narcissistic Abuse
Anne: When you started going to couples therapy with an abuser, which we never recommend. But because you didn’t know it’s narcissistic abuse, did the therapist help you realize this is abuse?
Rachel: No, it made it much worse. I think we only went to a few sessions before we really kind of broke away from each other for a bit. She was treating it like premarital counseling. An issue would come up in this session and we would kind of blow up about it. Then we would leave because the time was up. Then we would try to kind of resolve it ourselves afterwards.
It would just make it so much worse. It just was this big snowball effect of things getting worse. Definitely the couple’s therapy exacerbated it for sure.
Anne: It always does with narcissistic abuse. So it’s never, ever, ever recommended. But most couple therapists don’t know about it. If someone’s not coming in saying I’m being abused, then the couple therapist doesn’t hear that. They don’t help the victim identify it. And if they did, they would have to stop being their therapist.
They have an invested interest in not identifying the narcissistic abuse for monetary interest. I’m like, don’t ever go to couples therapy. If your relationship is so bad that you need couples therapy. I’m like, 99 percent of the time there’s a narcissistic abuse issue. And you shouldn’t be going to couples therapy.
Rachel: There’s twice that we go to the couples therapy and it ends up helping our relationship blow up. Which is what needed to happen for me personally. So we break up.
Taking The Blame & Anxiety From Narcissistic Abuse
Rachel: I tell no one the real reason why. I take all the blame because he was telling me at this time that I was selfish and I wasn’t giving him what he needed. He was questioning if we should get married.
I took the fall and told literally not a single person about his emotional affair with Grace at this time. I got away from him for about a month. Then one day he comes knocking back on my door and it started the whole process over again. I’m a writer, I journal a lot.
At the time I was writing a lot and this was summer of 2018. There’s a handful of pages from right when I break up with him. My mind is clear and I know I don’t deserve this. I’m pointing out so many issues with him. Then he comes knocking back on the door. The rest of the pages of that journal are just anxiety, so much anxiety.
Starting Over and New Relationships
Rachel: For the next year, I moved down into an apartment with a friend and kind of just start over. I was having anxiety and panic attacks all the time because he and I were still seeing each other. But there was no label. He was very secretive, very emotionally shut down.
It was this battle of me kind of trying to get him to open back up. After a year of that, I end up starting to see someone else. At this time he and I weren’t seeing anybody else. Or so he told me, that he was just taking a break. He was taking time for himself. He needed to think about what was going on and just heal.
I was doing the same thing, but then I met somebody. And so I asked for permission and I kind of start seeing this other person.
Confusion & Anxiety From Narcissistic Abuse
Anne: You asked him for permission?
Rachel: I did. I ask him if it’s okay if I pursue something with this other man.
Anne: And he’s like, it’s fine. Even though you had no defined relationship, really. Are you kind of just friends at the time? Are you kissing him?
Rachel: We were still like being physical. We were still going to dinner. It was acting like we were in a relationship, but a lot of the kind of emotional connection was removed on his part at that time. I couldn’t really figure out why.
Anne: How often were you seeing him?
Rachel: At least once a week.
Anne: Once a week, but you’re not really serious.
Rachel: So it was a lot of anxiety for me.
Anne: Do you want it to be more?
Rachel: Yes, yes, yes, I do. I want to figure it out. I’m dealing with the shame of my failed engagement and calling off the wedding. I had this whole picture for my life and I felt like this was my person. We just needed to figure this out and work through it.
Motivations For Dating Someone New
Anne: So what are your motivations for dating the other guy? While you’re still being physical with the wolf and seeing him once a week ?
Rachel: Yeah, the other guy we call Jack and I think I saw him as maybe an out. He lives a handful of hours away. So he wasn’t close necessarily. We weren’t seeing each other all the time, but I kind of saw him as this like escape. And maybe the answer to getting out of what I was in. I felt super stuck and super confused.
I just kind of wanted to explore, like, what else was out there. And see if maybe this could be the answer or a different path or something, Or maybe in a way to, I was hoping that it would make the wolf think he wanted to be with me for sure. And get more serious and be a little bit upset that I was with this other person, even.
Anne: The motivation is like twofold. It’s maybe an escape. But maybe this will like be the light bulb that he needs to realize how amazing that I am. Many women start to realize they may need a strategy for dealing with these types of men. To learn more about strategy, enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop.
The Option Of Being Alone
Anne: So many women don’t realize that there’s this awesome option and it’s because we haven’t been taught that especially women of faith who’ve grown up, when are you going to get married? Asking you about who you’re dating, that there’s this other awesome option, which is not dating anyone.
You really don’t need someone else as an escape plan or something, But we don’t think of that in the moment. We can just be alone and it’s fine. Since my divorce, I’ve been single for 10 years. And I was single for 10 years until I married my husband.
So I’m almost 47. I got married at 30, so single 10 years till I’m 30. Then he gets arrested when I’m 37.
You guys don’t know my story, but you’ll find out when you interview me for your podcast. So 37 to 47, I’ve also been single. So for that 27 years since I’ve been 20, I’ve only been married for seven of those years. And now I’m proudly, happily single and not dating anyone. And it’s great for me, I love it.
Megan: We need more examples of that.
The Danger Of Needing A Relationship
Megan: We don’t actually need to be in a relationship to be fulfilled.
Anne: Exactly, so that feeling of like, maybe this is my out. I think is how so many victims feel, but it’s also really dangerous because it often sets you up. Which I’m guessing we’re going to hear in a little bit for another abusive relationship. Sometimes, when we think we need a man for anything. Really it’s a little dangerous.
Rachel: I was 24 and I think what you said about growing up as a woman of faith. Yeah, you are taught that finding a husband is the end all be all. You’re in your early 20s and that’s the time to do it. So I thought I need to just grab all these pieces and make them fit. Like I don’t want to start over.
This is how it’s supposed to be. This is the person I am supposed to marry. We’re just hitting a bump in the road or whatever. I started dating this other person a little bit and see him. After a few months, he was dating around, but he starts having a serious girlfriend where he lives. So that was kind of over.
And the wolf at that point jumps in and is like, okay let’s be, you know, a little more serious here.
COVID & Relationship Dynamics
Rachel: This is around COVID. So early COVID time, we start getting more serious. We start integrating back into each other’s families and friends, and that was a big deal.
For the next couple of years, I really thought that he and I had worked through our things. We had come back together in a way that I thought was healthy. Fast forward a little bit, we get engaged again in November, 2022. And this is definitely where things are getting very dicey. Because I didn’t realize that he had been living a double life for about four years. At this point I am 27 and he is 30 and we pretty quickly start planning our second wedding.
We buy a house in February 2023 in which I pay for 80 percent of it and he pays for 20 percent of it. Because I have more of the stable and successful career than he does.
This was a big point of contention, our whole relationship too. I really wanted him to pick up another thing because we live in Southern California. It’s expensive to live here. He kind of tried some things, but at the end of the day, was kind of a quitter. He lived at his parents house for this whole time.
It kind of allowed him to not be super ambitious in this way. I was always kind of trying to push him and motivate him because I am a self starter.
4th Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: Future Faking
Anne: Was he future faking you? Like, oh, I’ve got this thing going on and I’m going to be doing this. This shows up a lot.
Rachel: Yeah, I think he would definitely do that sometimes. Or like, oh I can’t say what he does for work. But he would be like, come fall I’m going to be doing something different. I’m not going to be doing this anymore. Like he would kind of come up with these promises and these plans and they would, yeah, never come to fruition.
Anne: Okay. That’s number four, future faking. Hey, we’re going to do this thing. We’re going to go on this trip. And then to actually get that thing done, either they never do it. Or you have to be part of that. You have to be the one that’s like, okay, you know, that cruise that you promised me six years ago? I’m going to be the one that plans it.
Then if you end up going, he’s like, see, I did this for you. And you’re like, no, no, no, no. Lots of victims have applied to college for them or applied to jobs for them, or . . .
Rachel: Yes, and I was doing this stuff. Yes.
Anne: That’s part of that future faking, right?
Megan: Me too.
Anne: They’re like, I’m going to do this. You’re waiting for them to do it. Then you end up doing it for them. Then it doesn’t go very well because they never wanted to do it in the first place. They were just lying to you.
Lack Of Follow Through
Rachel: Yeah. That was a big pattern for us. And I would say too that he was doing that for the second proposal too. He’d be like, this is coming. Let’s go look at rings. And then it would be like months would go by and he would waffle. He was promising me the world.
It was getting frustrating waiting for it. So I started getting pushy, and then his proposal was blasé, and Megan has more context on that, because she was kind of involved in it.
Megan: Very haphazard, last minute put together, because he had another girlfriend at the same time.
Rachel: Yep, so we move into our house March 1st, 2023. He finally starts a new job. Because now we’re paying a mortgage and he started seeing the dollar signs and got a reality check. He starts this new job and in mid-March, we’d only been living together a couple of weeks.
Suspicious Texts
Rachel: And one day he has his phone plugged into the kitchen. And a text pops up from a girl and I asked to see it and he opens it. It’s this very suspicious message about what are you doing tonight? And it’s a coworker from this new job. I say to him, what, what is happening here? And he’s like, well, she’s the one that plans the group get togethers for all the coworkers.
So I just was trying to see if they were going to play volleyball tonight. And I say, that’s not what you asked. You asked, what are you doing tonight? I said, do you understand how triggering this is for me? Last time we were engaged, you were having this emotional affair. I found texts on your phone.
Discovering The Truth
Rachel: At that point, I decide to go snooping. I open his laptop and the last place that I look is his trash and there’s a document in there detailing in bullet point format. It’s like a diary detailing his whole sexual history with Grace for the last four years.
The woman that he had an emotional affair with when we were engaged.
Rachel: I think there were a couple of reasons why. I think it was like a fetishized thing for him. Um, he would go and like, look back on. Even think . . .
Anne: Like his own erotic novel that he wrote himself?
Rachel: I think so, but he was trying to convince me that none of it was true. But there are weird details in there that we’re confirming that it was. So I find this document.
Confrontation & Panic
Rachel: I call him. He’s gone to his next job and he comes home and we sit down on the bed and he has a panic attack. And he is trying to convince me that none of what he wrote is true. He made it all up as a fantasy to help him cope with me dating Jack years ago. He made it all up.
Anne: Was this a fake panic attack?
Rachel: Uh, yes, I definitely believe so. Looking back.
Anne: At the time it feels like it’s an “accident,” but they’re doing it on purpose. Which was our number one thing. He’s acting like he’s having a panic attack. My ex would say like, I’m feeling so much shame. At first I was like, Oh, I feel bad for you. And later I was like, so what?
Rachel: Exactly. So he has this panic attack. He’s trying to convince me none of these things that he wrote are true. Then he says these words to me, it’s a direct quote, which comes back into play later. This is mid-April. And so he says to me, “I would never touch another woman with my dick.” That is what he says to me.
So for a week, I am trying to believe these words that he’s telling me. He’s telling me every single day. None of that’s true. The next day he goes to work after this event happened. I’m at home a having panic attack. I work from home and he is texting me that I’m safe, that I can trust him, that he would never hurt me. Anytime that he hurts me, it hurts him, and all these things.
Physical Rejection of Lies
Rachel: And so, for a week I’m trying to believe him and my body is physically rejecting his lies. I physically cannot do it. On the seventh day, after I have the gnarliest panic attack I’ve ever had. I say to him, I’m going to be contacting her. She had also blocked me on social media too. And that didn’t make sense to me either.
If nothing had happened between them, why would she go through the trouble of blocking me? And so I told him. I’m going to be contacting her because I cannot believe what you’re saying. I physically cannot believe you. And so at this point he tells me, okay, I’m going to come clean.
We did have a relationship for a couple years and it ended during COVID and when you and I started dating again. And he tells me this made up timeline. I am devastated because obviously that’s still been a lie the whole time we were still seeing each other. And he was seeing her at the same time and lying about it. And so I am devastated. I’m not eating. I’m not sleeping. I still say to him, that’s still cheating.
The timeline that he made up, he thought it was safe, but it wasn’t. It was overlapping. And I say, okay, you know what? It was years ago. I’m going to choose to forgive you and move past this.
Bachelorette Trip Revelation
Rachel: And then we go on my bachelorette trip in Mexico. And on the last day there, we’re all sitting around the table having a great time playing games. One of my best friends, she gets messaged screenshots from one of her friends from high school. And he had been sending messages to a girl while I was gone. This girl was a sister of my friend Sabrina’s friend. So these messages get back to Sabrina, and he had been asking to hang out with this girl while I was gone.
I see these screenshots on her phone the next day in the van on the way to the airport. I asked her, what the heck are those? And she tells me she was trying to wait until we got home. I confront him about it. I’m devastated. I’m having a panic attack in the Cancun airport. My best friends and my sister are on this trip for my bachelorette party celebrating this wedding that we’re supposed to have in a couple months.
And it’s all blowing up again in my face. Now everybody that I love essentially is involved and knows. And so I’m deep, deep, deep in shame here. He’s telling me he just wanted to hang out with her as a friend. She’s a friend from high school and all his friends were busy.
5th Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: Saying They Didn’t Do Something Very Specific
Rachel: And I get home and what starts happening is I start figuring out how to out manipulate him. And how to essentially coerce him into giving me more information. So I learned, with me saying, I’m going to contact her. That got him to confess things. So I kind of do the same thing. And I get him to confess when I get home from Mexico, a bunch of virtual affairs that he’d been having for years. He confesses all the ones that he can remember.
Anne: Is that what he said?
Rachel: That’s what he said.
Anne: He said all the ones I can remember. I want to say number five is when they tell you a story, like, I never touched another woman with my penis, for example. Then they for sure did.
Rachel: Yeah.
Anne: For sure did that thing. So if they give you a strange detail that is a sign that they’re lying.
Specific Lies & Truths: Hallmarks Of Narcissistic Abuse
Anne: Because, for some reason they think if I lie specifically about the specific thing. That’s going to cover it up rather than realizing it’s like a dead giveaway. So I 100 percent did not hang out with her at that restaurant on Wednesday. If they’re giving you specific details. Then you can be like, okay, well now I totally know. That he for sure hung out with her at that restaurant on Wednesday.
Like you wouldn’t even think to lie about something like that unless it had happened. That’s what I’m trying to say. Like the details are not things that you think of lying about if they didn’t happen. Does that make sense?
Rachel: Yeah. No, that does make sense.
Anne: So I think that’s where you’re going with this, is that he’s telling you specific things.
Like I didn’t touch another woman with my penis. And you’re just finding out every detail that he told you, that he didn’t do, is the thing that he did.
Rachel: Yes. Oh, yes. He confesses. Okay. The relationship with Grace went on longer than I said, and it essentially went on up until he proposed to me a second time.
Engagement & Narcissistic Abuse
Megan: And he was trying to decide between you and her.
Rachel: Yeah,
Anne: Did Grace know about you?
Rachel: Grace knew that I existed and I still haven’t talked to her yet. I would love to, but she was blindsided too. She didn’t know that he and I were back together. So he was puppet mastering us both. At this point I am a shell of myself, my friends are distraught.
My sister is a mess and I’ve asked her not to say anything to my parents. I am in this deep trying to keep everything together all over again mode. Almost exactly five years later to the day.
Anne: In this mode are you still really wanting to get married? You’re still trying to hold it together because you’re still like, this wedding is happening?
Rachel: Yes, mm hmm. And he was definitely very much brainwashing me. There was a lot of like spiritual manipulation going on at this point, too. That we were going to church and God was giving him these messages and dreams. And he’s learned so much . Now we’re in mid-June. And I’m basically just like not functioning which was an effect of spiritual abuse.
One night in June, his phone is plugged in to the charger upstairs and he’s downstairs. I have already scoured his phone, but I get this weird feeling that I need to go and check his voicemails. I scroll down all the way to this little section at the bottom that has blocked messages and deleted messages.
Multiple Betrayals
There are two messages in his blocked messages little tab from very recently, like just a couple of weeks prior. It’s a woman and it’s this sultry voice saying how she misses him and hasn’t heard from him in a while. And he initially was telling me they just are sending inappropriate messages to each other.
It’s a coworker from his new job. Over the course of eight hours, I out manipulate him at five in the morning into telling me that he had slept with her twice in April. He tells me that he told me a lie, that he texted me that he was going to be late coming home from work. And I go back in my texts and I figure out when this was.
The first time that he slept with her was the day before I found the document on his computer about Grace. And then the second time was the day after I found the document about Grace on his computer when he’s texting me that I’m safe. You know, that he would never hurt me and all these things.
I’m finding out about this other four year relationship at the same time that he’s having an affair with his coworker, a completely different woman. It was a Sunday, went to church and I screamed in church during worship, get me out of this hell. I was so manic at this point. I felt like I was losing my mind. I’m experiencing so much abuse from him at this point.
Family Interventions For Narcissistic Abuse
Rachel: My family at this time was noticing that something was going on. They could tell my sister was like hiding secrets and like something was not right. They end up getting some information out of me. Over the course of a few days they invite me over for a series of interventions. And the last day my parents tell me you can’t marry this person.
We don’t support it. We’re not gonna pay for it This needs to not be happening. I tell him this and he essentially shuts down. Then kind of tries to manipulate me in these other ways. He starts mocking me like a child and kind of throwing a lot of tantrums and crying. He says that I’m abandoning him if I’m gonna go over and spend time with my family. All these things are common in narcissistic abuse. And the next day he leaves for work. I take my dog on a walk and I asked God, What am I supposed to do now?
It’s June 29th and I hear God go, open up your journal from five years ago, and I open up my journal. And to the day, I had written five years prior, that there’s a darkness in him. That he has sexual addiction and I need to get away from him, all these things. It was like I was writing it right then.
It snapped me out of whatever brainwash that I was in. And I came back to myself and I just started screaming in my house. No more, I’m not doing this anymore. I’m not giving him another five years. Like this is it, My parents called me in that moment, which was so strange because they had only been texting me that week.
Breaking Free From Narcissistic Abuse
Rachel: And in the middle of this panic, I had them come over and we came up with a plan and I left him. Over the next few months while we’re selling my house and everything, he does some really crazy things. He tells me he’s going to get a tattoo of me. All sorts of ridiculous threats that are common within narcissistic abuse. At that point, Megan and I went on my honeymoon together.
Anne: Yay!
Megan: After I just left my husband as well, so we were both on her honeymoon, single for the first time in a decade. Being like, oh, let’s start over our lives.
Anne: That was epic.
Rachel: Yeah. And that was the beginning of the rest of my life, honestly. So that’s my story.
Healing From Narcissistic Abuse Takes Time
Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story, Rachel. So many women that listen to this podcast are going through that same thing. Only they are married and they didn’t find any of these things out until after the marriage. Or after they had a kid or multiple children. And so good for you. You always had it in you.
That’s the thing that kills me about narcissistic abuse. Sorry, the one thing, no, there’s so many things. Is that women are trying to get to safety, right? The whole time you’re trying to face it, the whole time you’re trying to figure it out. The whole time you were trying to do the right thing and had you known he is a con man. He is a compulsive liar and a narcissist.
Because you don’t know what you’re looking at. You’re trying to figure it out. Once you figure it out, you’re like, okay, I know what to do now. But they love to keep you in the dark. That’s what is so infuriating, that they are keeping you in the dark on purpose. To exploit you for whatever they’re exploiting you for, your emotions, intimacy, for some people it’s money.
It can be all sorts of things. Maybe all of those things combined, but they are exploiters. And they want to keep you in the dark. So I’m so, so glad that you were finally able to see the truth.
Saved From Narcissistic Abuse At The Final Hour
Rachel: Yeah, me too. I thought that it was a redemption path for us getting this house and getting re-engaged in all these things. I am so grateful that we did buy that house and we did live together for a few months. Because that allowed me to find out what he had been hiding for years. I really do feel so strongly that I was saved at the final hour twice.
I just really try to live now and not take it for granted and just lean super hard into life.
Anne: That’s awesome. If you want to hear more of her story and Megan’s story, their podcast is The Traumedy Show with Rachel and Megan Wilford. Thank you both for being here today.
Rachel & Megan: Thank you so much, Anne.
What Is A Secret Sexual Basement? Why His Secrets Are Dangerous
Oct 22, 2024
When a man chooses to have a secret sexual basement, he’s abusing his wife. Here’s why.
A secret sexual basement refers to a hidden life that a man conceals from his wife and children. This hidden life may involve activities such as pornography, prostitution, sexting, affairs, sexual assault, or workplace sexual harassment.
Having A “Secret Basement” Is Abuse
Here are all the abusive ways a man keeps his behaviors hidden from his wife:
Manipulation
Lies
Gaslighting
Emotional neglect
Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? Take this FREE emotional abuse quiz to determine if your husband’s secret basement qualifies as emotional abuse.
A Secret Basement Is Abusive
Even if a man is fully transparent about his activities – thus having no “secret” basement – if he feels entitled to sex, he is still abusive.
At BTR.ORG, we understand how difficult it can be to accept that your partner’s betrayal is abuse – especially if you have been conditioned to believe that your partner is addicted and needs your support to “heal”.
Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about the secret basement. A secret basement is when a man has an entire life that his wife and kids don’t know about. That life can include any or all of these things: pornography, masturbation, prostitution, sexting, affairs, sexual assault, sexual harassment at work . It could be why he’s on his phone all the time. He compartmentalizes his life so that when he’s with his wife and children, he’s an upstanding member of society.
Then he has this other part of his life. He participates in behaviors that would absolutely devastate and shock his family, colleagues and church community. The type of man who would have a secret basement is, at his core, a liar. He doesn’t live in truth, because there’s no truth in him. The character of a man with a secret basement has no respect or care for integrity. Meaning he doesn’t care if his actions are inconsistent with his statements.
He doesn’t have an integrity disorder. He just doesn’t have integrity. So this isn’t necessarily him breaking his marriage vows, although he absolutely has broken his marriage vows. It’s the opposite. Like he saw this public act of making marriage vows as a good way to deceive people about his true character. Let’s pretend for a minute that he was very genuine when he made his marriage vows, he did those honestly.
If he is honest, then when he wants to break his marriage vows. He would tell his wife, hey, I know I made these marriage vows. I now would like to break them and I’m going to break them in this way.
Traits Of Men With Secrets
Anne: I’ve never heard of a cheating man or a man who uses exploitative material doing that, not once. Why? Because a man with a secrets is a liar. That is his character. A man with a secrets is also exploitative. His character is based on the belief that he’s entitled to exploit people, especially his wife. When it comes to it, he puts his desire for it and his ability to do whatever he wants when it comes to it. Above the basic care or rights of other people.
So in a nutshell, a man with a secrets lies and exploits people. The addiction, industrial complex or treatment complex would like women married to men. Who have this type of character to believe it’s an addiction issue. But entitlement isn’t an impulse control problem, a brain problem, or a willpower problem. It’s just a character problem.
This is a man who thinks, I deserve to watch it. It’s my right. If you get in my way or cause me problems, complain or whine about me doing this thing that I’m entitled to do. You are taking away my rights. You’re oppressing me. I am entitled to it from you. And if you don’t give it to me or let me do it in some other way, it’s a miscarriage of justice.
And that’s how men with this type of character end up playing the victim over and over again. Because a man with this type of character will feel very oppressed when he’s not able to get what he thinks he deserves. He’s going to think you’re taking his rights away. Or oppressing him if you confront him about his use, or how he’s harmed you.
The Role Of Deception & The Impact On Wives
Anne: Men with secret basements use deception, as they use. That they don’t want their wife or anyone to know about. They’re not engaged in those behaviors because they’re an addict, although they are an addict.
They believe, at their core, entitled to that. And believe their desires are equal to air, and if they don’t “breathe,” they’re going to asphyxiate. They will feel oppressed and victimized when someone gets in their way. And his wife usually wonders where he is. Why isn’t he home for dinner? Because she doesn’t know he has this whole other life. So it’s hard for her to understand why he can’t make enough time to take out the garbage.
The character of a man with a secrets is unwilling. He’ll manipulate his wife to believe he’s unable to meet the lowest bar of decent human behavior. He wants his wife to think that his lower than lowest bar behavior is due to an addiction, disorder, childhood trauma or abusive dad. So he needs her help to educate him about how to meet the lowest bar.
He doesn’t mind being labeled an addict, and he doesn’t mind therapy because an abusive husband knows he can just lie and manipulate the therapist. But if he says his childhood trauma caused him to have a secrets, that is flat out not true. He had childhood trauma, sure. Then he had a bunch of choices to make, and he chose a deceitful character and create a secret basement.
Manipulation Is Always Involved
Anne: When he could sing Broadway musicals all day. He could eat ice cream or go for a run. It literally has nothing to do with his childhood trauma, or his abusive dad. He’s not willing to behave in a way that doesn’t harm other people. Because he doesn’t care about people. He’s not considerate of others. If he actually cared about injuring people, he would have stopped a long time ago.
But he doesn’t care about injuring other people. He just wants to do what he wants to do, and he doesn’t want anyone to bother him about it. He’s not willing to live according to principles. And due to that, you might see that he exhibits some sociopathic or antisocial patterns. These are ways of thinking and behaviors that disregard and violate the rights of others through deceit and manipulation.
One of the hallmarks of an emotional and psychological abuser. The type of man to have a secrets is that he understands sympathy and uses it to manipulate people. But he doesn’t feel sympathy toward other people. He wants his wife to feel sorry for him. So he can continue to exploit her.
The manipulation tactic of poor me. I’ve had such a hard life. All the excuses he could give sounds better than the truth. Which is: I’m going to watch it because I’m so selfish. I’m willing to harm other people to satisfy my desires.
Justifications Used For The Abusive Behavior
Anne: Just think about it this way. If I thought it was fun to stomp on my husband’s barefoot with my cowboy boots on. But he cried when I did it, I’d stop. I would stop after the first time, because I would see the look on his face. I would realize the pain it caused him. Even that example is insane. Because a decent human being would know that stomping on his barefoot in my cowboy boots would hurt. I don’t have to stomp on it or see the look on his face to realize this.
The type of man to have a secret basement. He’s never going to articulate or admit that he’s aware, educated, and conscious that he’s hurting people. And that he chooses to do it anyway. When a woman discovers her husband has secrets. It’s likely she’ll resist this type of abuse by trying to get him to get help. Thinking that that will stop him from abusing her. It takes a long time to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse. Anything that a woman does to resist this type of abuse is healthy.
Even so, we’ve found it’s not the most strategic way to safety. Because he’s been comfortable deceiving you and others this entire time. He’s known he’s been doing it the whole time. If the only time you ever hear about him wanting to change and getting treatment is after you’ve caught him using or having an affair. You can know that is manipulation. Because if he wanted to change, he would have sought help before you found it on his phone.
Religion, Deceit & More Abuse
Anne: In religious communities, when they’re caught, men with a secrets. Will profess to believe in Jesus, and repentance, and that you need to forgive. This is just more manipulation and abuse. Jesus said don’t lust after women. So, if he believed in Jesus, he would have followed his counsel before he got caught.
A man with a secrets can be accurately defined as abusive. And here’s why, to “get what he’s owed,” he’ll use abusive tactics like grooming, gaslighting, and deceit. All of which are abusive. Grooming and gaslighting to see aren’t wrong, because if you do them, you’ll go to hell. They’re wrong, because if you do them, you’re going to hurt someone else.
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Let’s say a man doesn’t have a secrets. Let’s say he uses, but he’s completely honest and transparent about it. Is he abusive? The answer is yes, because he’s participating in trafficking, which is how it is produced. The definition of trafficking is the buying or selling of people for a profit. The free exploitative material is to get people hooked, so eventually they will pay for it.
If a man is willing to consume women as products, his wife will be abused. Because he believes, at his core, that women are objects. Pretty much every woman in our community who discovered her husband’s secrets. Says that her husband also exhibited the characteristics of a narcissist, sociopath, or addict.
How To Recognize Their True Character
Anne: The most important thing is realizing you’ve discovered his true character. If you’re listening and still confused about his true character. Is he really this type of abuser? I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to answer this very question. Enrolling in this workshop will help you determine his true character. And help you determine if he is this type of exploitative person with that level of deception. Or if it was just a mistake because he didn’t understand.
The Living Free Workshop will also help you know what safety strategies to use as you observe. To figure out what his character is. Since I started educating people about this type of abuse. I’ve come into contact with so many therapists who use many words. They use the word disorder. They like to diagnose. And all of it sounds like word salad to me.
The more I’ve listened to all these so-called reasons or explanations of why this man is abusive. I don’t understand why they don’t just say he’s abusive. They say like, he’s got this disorder, which is abusive, and I’m like, well, why don’t you just say he’s abusive? That’s what abuse is. It’s confusing to me. It’s also confusing to me when women go to clergy for help. And they’ll suggest this is some type of sickness and health situation.
But finding out your husband has a secrets. Is totally different than your husband being diagnosed with cancer. When someone is genuinely sick, they need your support and love. But if someone uses your support and love for his own exploitative purposes, he’s deceiving you on purpose to continue dangerous behaviors. That makes him dangerous to you.
Finding Safety & Miracles
Anne: And because abusers already know what they’ve been doing. And why they’ve been communicating the way they have to deceive you. Communicating how their behavior has harmed us does not improve the situation. Because they already know, they just don’t care.
There was a time in my marriage when I had a Willy Wonka attitude about it. If I wanted the golden ticket enough, I would get it. If I wanted him to change, I could pray and have faith, and not give up hope. And miracles could happen. I believe in miracles. But I discovered that focusing on my own emotional and psychological safety created so many miracles. I am the miracle, my life is the miracle. So determining your husband’s true character is the first step on your way to a miracle.
Again, to find out more about The Living Free Workshop and how it can help you determine your husband’s character.
Do I Have Betrayal Trauma? 26 Symptoms
Oct 15, 2024
Betrayal trauma occurs when you’ve experienced (or are still experiencing) your husband’s emotional and psychological abuse. If you recently found out your husband has been lying to you, using pornography, or other infidelity, here’s what you need to know.
Betrayal Trauma is caused by your husband’s chronic and systematic betrayal. This betrayal includes infidelity in the form of affairs, hook ups, secret pornography use, etc, and is covered up or justified by emotional, psychological, spiritual, sexual, and financial abuse.
To discover if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take this FREE emotional abuse quiz.
Am I Overreacting Or Am I Traumatized?
If you’re second-guessing whether you have Betrayal Trauma, look at the list of symptoms below. Keep in mind that not every victim will experience every symptom. And please remember – it’s normal to be deeply affected by your husband’s betrayal. You’re not crazy or overreacting.
26 Symptoms Of Betrayal Trauma
Feeling helpless
Hopelessness
Sleeplessness
Restlessness / Over achieving
Anger / Rage
Fear
Forgetfulness
Difficulty concentrating or focusing
Hyper-vigilance
Sensitivity
Anxiety
Nightmares
Flashbacks / Intrusive images / Reliving Conversations or events
Immobility / Agoraphobia
Withdrawing
Avoidance
Mood swings
Panic attacks
Depression
Confusion
Dissociation
Inability to eat
Overeating
Chronic fatigue
Immune/endocrine system problems
Tight and sore muscles
I Have Betrayal Trauma – What Next?
First and foremost, please offer yourself radical compassion. As you come to accept that you’re experiencing Betrayal Trauma. At BTR, we encourage victims to focus on their own emotional safety and wellness as the first priority.
To do that you need to learn more about what’s been happening to you. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. For more information about what’s really going on and how to find peace.
Choose To Focus On Your Emotional Safety & Wellness
You didn’t cause your husband to betray you. But now that you know, you will need support. Please know that you are NOT alone. At BTR.ORG, we know the seemingly endless and daunting devastation of betrayal trauma.
The horror of realizing that your life is not what you thought it was. We understand the loneliness of waking up next to someone who has broken your heart. We know the anger and sadness that seems all-consuming.
Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe space for you to process these difficult feelings. And find a community of women who understand your pain. Attend today and begin your journey to healing.
Do I Have Betrayal Trauma? 26 Symptoms
Transcript: Do I Have Betrayal Trauma? 26 Symptoms
Anne: It’s just me today. We’ll talk about betrayal trauma. I’d hazard to say, at least millions of women across the globe experience betrayal trauma. The best way to explain betrayal trauma comes from the Greek word wound. Trauma is the resulting wound from whatever occurred in an event or situation. If it injures us, we end up with a wound. So we can use either the word wound or trauma.
Trauma means going through something really upsetting that leaves a mark or a wound. This could be a wound on your body, like if you get hurt in a car accident or get shot. People can see these kinds of wounds. But trauma can also be something that hurts your feelings or mind, like if someone is mean to you all the time. This kind of wound is not visible, but it can still hurt a lot. All types of trauma come from things that are really hard to deal with.
Psychological and emotional trauma isn’t visible to anyone, even the victim. Because no one can see it, and because generally men do not believe women. There’s this sense that the wound doesn’t exist. Instead, you’re broken, which isn’t true. This is where things get dicey. Because, if you have trauma and been wounded, there was a cause. A wound doesn’t just occur out of thin air.
Which is why men don’t listen to women. So the proof he injured her is their hurt or trauma. And if he’s the type to exploit and objectify women. He has no concept of her actually having an inner world.
Anne: If he’s using a hammer, he never thinks, is the hammer going to be injured? He doesn’t think the hammer has feelings? Or that it even could be injured. If it breaks, he might need to get a new hammer. So if it’s not working the way he thought it should, he might want to get a new hammer. A man with an exploitative character thinks about women in that way. She’s a tool, and if she’s not working. If she’s not useful. Then it’s time to get a new one.
This absolute denial that she’s capable of being injured because she’s a person. The denial that his actions will injure her highlights his exploitative character on a deep and profound level. Instead, he chooses to think that any distress she feels is her fault. Because she’s broken. So in his mind, if the hammer is not working, it’s a broken hammer. In fact, it’s the hammer’s fault, not his fault.
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So In other words, if I’m unable to exploit her. And if she’s not acting like she’s “supposed to.” If she asks too many questions. If she’s sad or broken. That’s her fault, because she’s broken. This type of deep psychological and emotional trauma women experience is devastating.
Aggressions cause it, psychological and emotional. Sometimes in the form of grooming, so they feel good almost daily. The injuries caused by that abuse over time grows, grows and grows. But because you can’t see it with your eyes, it’s hard to know how this is happening. Betrayal trauma occurs when the person you trust the most. Your partner has and continues to violate that trust in an ongoing way.
Research & Misconceptions About Betrayal Trauma
Anne: Jennifer Frayed did some research at the University of Oregon. She described betrayal trauma as trauma that occurs when a person or institution. On which a person depends for survival, significantly violates that person’s trust or wellbeing. So other things that would cause betrayal trauma or these types of emotional and psychological injuries. Are generally considered things like childhood, physical, emotional, and psychological abuse.
Where a caregiver or someone that a child should trust and depend on violates that trust. By repeatedly injuring that child, not just through one physical event. But through emotional and psychological abuse almost daily.
Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we offer the best support for betrayal trauma. Is when we, as a wife, have been psychologically and emotionally abused continually by our husband. When he lies and gaslights us about his exploitative content use, his affairs, or any behavior outside the marriage. In this case, because it’s a marriage, and he has made vows and promises. There’s a reasonable expectation of trust. and honesty.
Here’s the thing that most people get wrong about betrayal trauma. They think the trauma or injury comes from the discovery that he’s been using. But the trauma actually grows daily. Through all of the lies, gaslighting, psychological and emotional abuse.
Injuries Start The Day We Met, Abusive Husbands Are Not Trustworthy
Anne: The long con causes the trauma. It started the day we met him. When he used grooming, emotional and psychological abuse to create a false narrative. When it’s revealed he’s actually not who we thought he was. That he has this whole secret life. We also discover that he had never been trustworthy. And has been injuring us since the day he met us.
Even though we can’t see it, we can sense it. We feel hurt and try to explain it to others. Or talk to a therapist or a pastor about the pain. We think it’s just a small problem, but it turns out to be much bigger, affecting our body and mind more than we thought. When we ask for help, neither we nor those helping us realize that we’re still getting hurt.
We don’t see, and they don’t educate us. That those injuries came from and continue to come from emotional and psychological abuse. And we are still in danger. Then they also injure us. Because if the source of the injury hasn’t been accurately named, the cause still exists. Our injuries will continue to grow. Unfortunately, in religious settings, this can also cause spiritual injuries for women of faith. Because he keeps us in the dark about what’s happening.
We may question, does God love me? Does he even care? Because clergy doesn’t accurately see that a perpetrator actively harms her and causes injuries. They fall into that misogynistic trap of thinking. Because she hasn’t prayed enough or read her scriptures. Or because she doesn’t have enough faith. And she is just acting like this, because she’s broken. Rather than seeing the truth.
The Serious Problem Of Unrecognized Active Psychological & Emotional Abuse
Anne: There’s a serious problem, she’s injured and needs help. Clergy could act as the Savior would. And help deliver these women from these injuries. So they could actually heal. But instead, they usually don’t acknowledge the cause of the actual injury. Instead, they grow the trauma by calling her broken. Which is emotional and psychological abuse in this case. Because she’s not broken. It is a lie.
As you listen, do you identify with the word trauma? Would you describe your experience? When you found out your husband used online exploitative content. Or had an affair, solicited prostitutes or texted inappropriately with a coworker? Would you describe that experience as traumatic? And then also looking back and realizing all the gaslighting and lies?
If you relate to the word trauma, we have our daily Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Where women share their experiences. I’d also be honored to hear your story. If you’d like to share your story on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, email podcast@btr.org.
Symptoms Of Betrayal Trauma
Anne: If you have betrayal trauma, here are 26 betrayal trauma symptoms that you may be experiencing:
Feeling helpless, hopeless, sleepless, restlessness or overachieving. Additionally feeling anger, rage, fear, forgetfulness, difficulty concentrating, difficulty focusing or reading. Feeling hypervigilance, sensitivity, anxiety, nightmares. flashbacks, or intrusive images. Also, you may relive conversations or events, feel immobility, agoraphobia, withdrawing, and avoidance. Avoidance of things you want to do, mood swings, panic attacks, depression, confusion, or disassociation.
Maybe the inability to eat. Or overeating, chronic fatigue, immune endocrine system problems. Lastly, tight and sore muscles. Although I could actually go on and on. Betrayal trauma victims will experience symptoms like this. From the very first day they meet this abusive man. They might end up going to therapy for years. Misdiagnosed with depression. Not realizing they’re depressed, because they’re injured.
Healing From Betrayal Trauma
Anne: So the key to healing from betrayal trauma is: First, recognizing exactly what is causing the trauma. Then putting some distance between yourself and the harm. In fact, I describe exactly how to do that in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop helps women determine if their husband has an exploitative character. Music can also help in processing the trauma, here are some songs about healing from trauma.
After the workshop, you can clearly see what his true character is. Then if he has an exploitative character, it will teach you emotional and psychological safety strategies.
How Do I Know If My Husband Is Abusive? – Coach Jo’s Story
Oct 08, 2024
If you’re wondering, “How do I know if my husband is abusive?” You’re not alone. Hearing the stories of other women can help you know what to do next. Coach Jo is a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach who had to ask herself that question in two different marriages.
Your Husband Is Abusive If His Exploitative Materials Use = Coercion
Women have the right to information about their partner’s behaviors before choosing to be intimately involved and committed to him. A man is not giving his partner the ability to make informed consent if he withholds information about exploitative materials use.
This is called coercion and it is abusive.
An appropriate conversation would include her partner disclosing the full truth his use and other behaviors prior to intimate contact.
Often, women find that they are in a relationship for several months or years with a user before discovering his secret behaviors.
He’s Abusive If He’s Using Psychological Control Tactics
Gaslighting, lying, and manipulation are all psychologically abusive tactics. Psychological abuse differs from emotional abuse in that it is intended to make the victim question her own reality.
Often, psychological abusers will take the stance that they “didn’t do it intentionally” or that it “wasn’t calculated.” Perhaps they didn’t intend for their partner to become so depressed from their abuse that she fantasizes about suicide every day…. or perhaps they didn’t intend for their partner to become so unsure of her reality that she truly wonders if she is insane… but they were intentionally choosing to protect their acting-out behaviors by not being honest and forthright.
Every abuser is completely accountable for their every word and action. The consequences on victims can be overwhelmingly tragic and abusers must face the reality that even if it wasn’t “calculated”, it was still intentional.
Exploitative Material Use is Emotionally Abusive
Betrayed women suffer from Betrayal Trauma. Betrayal Trauma is a symptom of abuse, not addiction. Betrayal in and of itself is emotionally abusive. It creates feelings of immense anguish, rejection, terror, and grief. At BTR, we understand that it’s not “just pornography”. We understand that your world is crashing down around you. We’re here for you.
Transcript: How Do I Know If My Husband Is Abusive?
Anne: I’m so excited to have coach Jo on today’s episode. She’s one of our amazing BTR coaches. All of the coaches here at BTR have been through this and are now able to live free through strategy and boundaries. I’m so passionate about only having women who have been through this on our team.
Anne: Coach Jo was married to two different abusers. Let’s start with the first one. Did you recognize that he was an abuser at first?
Coach Jo: I didn’t have a clear understanding of what abuse was before we were married. Then pretty quickly it became apparent that there was something wrong, and that it wasn’t safe. I didn’t have the words for that initially, but it became clear very very quickly. It started on the honeymoon.
The second night of the honeymoon he left me in the hotel room for a couple of hours. I had no idea where he had gone. This is pre cell phone. I was distraught and wondering what the heck had happened and what I had gotten myself into.
Coach Jo: There were explosions at the house, a lot of angry outbursts, a lot of name calling, a lot of breaking things. I had no idea what to do. Then we went on a trip together and got lost in the middle of the night. We were circling around looking for our exit or the connecting road, this was before GPS.
He was cussing and screaming and driving like a maniac. Every time we went over an overpass, he would threaten to drive off the overpass. This went on for probably a good hour and a half. And by the time we reached our destination, I locked myself in the bathroom and couldn’t move. There was 20 years of that kind of behavior. We have five children together.
Anne: How did you describe his behavior when you didn’t know it was abuse?
Coach Jo: I told one relative and she said communicate better, try not to trigger him, walk on eggshells around him. It never even occurred to me to ask myself, is my husband abusive?
I did bring it to clergy. Of course my husband was in the room too, and the response that I got was, “Has he hit you?” And the answer was no. Then he said, “So what’s the problem?”
Seeking Help & Not Understanding That My Husband Is Abusive
Anne: At BTR, we are interfaith, but also inter-paradigm. In fact we have women who work here from various different faiths, also who are agnostic. Wherever a client is, is where we meet them. Would you mind sharing what your specific faith is?
Coach Jo: I am Catholic, this was the only priest that I have encountered personally that had that kind of an attitude .
Anne: This particular priest says, what’s the problem? did you try to get help from anyone else during this time?
Coach Jo: About year six we went to couples therapy and did individual therapy.
Coach Jo: I kept thinking he doesn’t understand surely he doesn’t understand. Surely, he just doesn’t know a better way. I focused my energy on trying to fix him so couples therapy was my idea.
Anne: Did you know about use with him or affairs or prostitutes or anything?
Is My Husband Abusive? Coercion & Betrayal
Coach Jo: Later on, I really understood what BTR talks about, coercion. The idea that you are not a whole being and a whole person. That you are there for somebody else’s gratification.
You have a person receiving gratification from the humiliation and degradation of another person. Even if you don’t have proof positive that they’re watching it, It will be very apparent in the way that they treat you, the way they look at and speak to other women as well. Really what it came down to was he did not have respect for me. He had no respect for women. He did coercion, if I would not comply with his wishes, he threatened to kill himself.
I found out he had slept with women in our church congregation, in the neighborhood and at the school. It was precarious and degrading not to know. I still didn’t know if my husband was abusive. I didn’t have words or definitions for it.
Coach Jo: I did file for divorce ultimately. Then it was a long, hard road.
Anne: Like you were saying before we recorded, your parents.
Family Choosing His Side When My Husband Is Abusive
Coach Jo: They ended up siding with my first husband.
Anne: Throughout the separation and divorce, you were estranged from your mom and dad. I’m so sorry. That’s so hard.
Coach Jo: If I had to rate traumas, that’s probably not a good idea, I would say that the trauma from that probably hit 10 times worse.
Anne: I’m so sorry. That’s so hard.
Second Marriage: Figuring Out If My Husband Is Abusive
Anne: You mentioned to me before we started recording that the second marriage was completely different. Really quick, before you share, at the very beginning of my marriage, I made friends with someone who had been punched.
Her husband didn’t help around the house. I think he was gone a lot of the time. I said to her, something is wrong. She said to me, “Oh, your husband is amazing. He’s so great, he comes to church, he’s always helping people out. Like, no, he’s not abusive. You don’t have to worry.”
Comparing her abuser, who was overtly abusive, in contrast to what I experienced. The gaslighting, lying, manipulation, and use was so different. She couldn’t recognize it, I also couldn’t, but I knew something was very wrong. I didn’t know even to ask if my husband is abusive.
Is My Husband Abusive? Early Red Flags
Anne: I’m not sure if that’s what’s coming when it comes to your story, but let’s start with your second marriage. So three and a half years later, you meet your second husband. Can you talk about when you first met him.
Coach Jo: , I don’t think I had my sea legs under me from the first marriage. I felt like I failed at the first marriage. There was an eagerness to get it right, to do it again, to do it better. I asked all the right questions.
I looked for all the flags, but what I didn’t understand is you don’t ask the person your questions. You ask the question and you observe the answer.
Anne: I did the same thing, I asked all the right questions. And yes, I didn’t give it enough time to observe. What I was observing was very disturbing, but I would talk to him about it and he would give me the right answers. Is that what happened to you too?
Coach Jo: Yes. It was like a test. He knew the right answers. The answers I wanted to hear. He hid who he was and what the agenda was. I didn’t find that out until after the honeymoon
Is My Husband Abusive? Does He Use expoitative material?
Anne: So you’re experiencing coercion. Again, just like you did in the first marriage in this second marriage. He’s also using secretly and lying to you. But in the second one, you do find out that he’s using.
Coach Jo: Yeah, he had joined a men’s program for addicts/abusers.
Anne: Addicts. Did he do this on his own, or were you kind of like, hey, you should try this?
Coach Jo: I did all the research. I thought, I have to make this work. I found everything. We had a couple’s therapist. Not helpful. Zero out of five stars, it was during COVID. I kept thinking that maybe something would change if I just hung on tight. I say that my first husband was abuse by fire. The second was abuse by ice. So he would withdraw and ignore your presence. He would tell you what you were feeling, but all of it, very calm, very metered, nothing to see here.
He wanted me to function in certain roles as a companion for activities to show up and be the couple. I was useful for that. But then when I wanted to take up space and be something other than the role, it wasn’t okay. I was too much. It was obvious that it was a pain if I were me instead of the role. It took me a long time to identify that I was experiencing abuse from my husband.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery & Finding Support
Anne: Because this wasn’t a relationship, to him it was a show or something?
Coach Jo: It was functional. There was an image. If I was upholding the image, then that was fine. If I was asking for something more, if I was asking for something relational, there was no room for that. Early one morning we were talking. It wasn’t a conflict, he was talking about how I looked or how I presented. He said he wanted to pour acid on my face and then sloughed it off as a joke, and I was horrified.
It was through a conversation with my friend who said, listen, this is a big deal and you can’t ignore this. You really need to speak with these women over at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. They can help you, BTR was a game changer for me because it gave me language. Somebody in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions said “wife appliance”. That’s it, that’s what I am. I’m a “wife appliance.” That term really resonated with me.
Joining BTR and getting coaching was what what I needed BTR said the user is responsible for their own actions. Not just the viewing of it, but the way they treat their spouse and the other individuals in their life as a result of the use. And it is not my responsibility to make it comfortable for the abuser so that they can stop their behaviors. The responsibility lies solely with the abusive husband and not the victim.
Traditional Therapy Enabled My Husband’s Emotional Abuse
Coach Jo: Addiction therapy does not give you the same language. It doesn’t give you the same solution. In addiction therapy you’re told to communicate better, to provide a safe environment. You check in and you talk about your feelings and you talk about what’s bothering you and you talk about what you need.
In couples therapy you’re supposed to communicate better. When you’re communicating with an abuser, anything you say is used against you. Any information that you give is used to maintain that power and control. So it’s very, very high risk for the spouse
Anne: The emotional abuser exploits your emotions and the things that you tell them for their own purposes. It’s never resolving something between you. He’s just excited that you’re giving him information that he can use to exploit you. So it’s extremely dangerous to be vulnerable with an emotional abuser.
I can’t figure out why therapists haven’t figured this out yet. It’s probably because they don’t have any other tools. They just think communication is always good. Also, they don’t think of him as exploiting the emotion. They think, well, obviously when she tells him how hurt she is, that will make a difference. They don’t realize that’s not what has happened in the past, and it’s certainly not what’s going to happen in the future.
My Husband Is Abusive Because He Uses These Deceptive Tactics
Anne: Therapists haven’t figured this out yet because abusers lie. They say they care about the relationship, about the family and about us when they don’t. They’re not going to walk right into a therapist and say, I actually don’t like my wife. As well as, I want to have it with other people.
Coach Jo: I’m sorry, I’m laughing because I can’t picture that ever happening. At least the playing field would be level, right? That you can make an informed decision. As painful as it would be, it would give you enough information to make a decision in your best interest.
Anne: Because it’s exploitative, they have a reason to lie. If they weren’t getting something from you, maybe meals, maybe childcare, and physical stuff. If they weren’t getting something, then they probably wouldn’t mind saying, “Hey, you know what? I’m done. I’m going to go have it with other people.” But they need to keep their exploitative privilege intact. And that is why they’re not willing to be honest. Because they’re going to lose something if they’re honest.
Coach Jo: I think that’s a difficult thing to come to terms with, the reality of, Hey, hold on a second. None of this was in my best interest. It was difficult to see it as intentional. That’s the main difference that I found, at least on a practical boots on the ground level at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helped Me Know If My Husband Is Abusive
Coach Jo: You weren’t required to become vulnerable to your spouse in order to solve the problem. That is the beauty of BTR. It provides a space where you’re able to speak the truth of what’s happening. Without any background noise, without anybody trying to circumvent. What you see, you can duck out of the subterfuge take a minute to breathe and assess what’s happening. Its a space where I can figure out if I’m experiencing abuse from my husband.
Coach Jo: It’s so helpful. If I could wave a magic wand. I would give women in these situations turning the volume down on the abuser’s voice. You could sit back and watch the actions, the attitudes, what’s actually happening and not what’s being said. You can actually assess if your husband is abusive. That would be a huge gift. Betrayal Trauma Recovery does provide that place to pause and assess what’s happening.
Anne: Without any interference from anyone else.
Even though it’s difficult information, it provides a place to process that’s safe. Then you can listen to other women’s stories as well and see that you’re not the only one. And look at the common threads. And it becomes easier to identify when you see it.
Anne: You found BTR in your second marriage, which helped you know that your husband was abusive. You saw the emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. How would it have been different had you found BTR in your first marriage?
The Journey Of Healing
Coach Jo: I think it would have been a game changer. I did not understand the emotional abuse the exists and things of that nature. Even engaging in an individual session or two and just throwing out some of these behaviors and saying, Hey, hold on a second. Is this okay? Is this all right? Without my spouse there. Because up until then, all of the appointments had occurred with him in the room,
Anne: Trying to identify if your husband is abusive with your abuser in the room. That’s so unethical for the therapist doing that. They have no idea what they were doing and it’s so scary.
Coach Jo: Because you can’t say anything. Like how do you speak the truth when you know there’s going to be consequences? So they never have an opportunity to hear the truth of what’s happening.
Anne: Yeah, it’s really scary actually . None of the situation was your fault. People don’t get abuse education and even if you understand it, trying to figure out how to be safe is difficult. Can you also talk about maybe what would have been different had you known about BTR going into your second marriage.
Coach Jo: It would have been a more expanded view of what abuse looks like. And then the converse, what character looks like, what integrity looks like. It’s not what somebody says. It’s what they do. Where their eyes trail, it’s all of the things. BTR really helped me to know if my husband is abusive. Character and integrity show up in every area of somebody’s life. Just being able to bounce that off of somebody.
Understanding My Husband’s Abuse & Setting Boundaries
Coach Jo: I think BTR is the perfect place if you’re dating, maybe not in group sessions, but in individual sessions. It’s a beautiful space to talk about behaviors, attitudes, tone, habits and things like that. Where you can sort these things out with somebody else who gets it. Especially if you are dating after narcissistic abuse. Then take time to investigate and make an informed decision or as informed as you can. The gift of a pause and a little bit of silence makes all the difference in the world.
One of the things that made Betrayal Trauma Recovery different was the focus on the things that I had control over, like setting boundaries. Like what level of risk I wanted to take when I was talking with my husband. How to navigate day to day living and all of the details where the abuse permeates your life.
Anne: Did you find any other resource you went to understood all the different ways that it permeates your life?
Coach Jo: I think that the underlying understanding was that they believed the mask. Truly, he was a good guy. He was just good. Not slick enough to recognize the mistakes he was making. BTR reframed it as well, he’s hitting the bullseye every time.
How is that an accident? How does he happen to say the thing that hurts you the most? Right after you told him that was painful? How does he happen to withhold when you’re having the worst day ever and you’ve got tears running down your face. That’s not an accident. But all the other programs looked at it like, oh it’s just goofy, doesn’t mean any of it.
The Importance Of Language & Support
Coach Jo: BTR looked at it and went, no, hold on a second. You can’t hit the mark right on that many times accidentally. It doesn’t work that way. And if you step back and look at it, it makes total sense. But you have to step back and look at it from a different angle. And it’s not my job to figure out why, but BTR helped me to say, Hey, what’s happening, what does it feel like? What does it look like? And then what do you want to do? It gave me choices.
Anne: I think one of the things that other professionals are maybe afraid of is the consequences of calling it abuse. And BTR is not afraid. We’re not pro divorce, we’re definitely pro safety, and pro safety means we’re not afraid of looking it right in the eye and calling it what it is. Whereas I think other people are like, if I say that to him, it might hurt his feelings. Or it might make him angry, or the marriage might fall apart, or this or that. And BTR is not afraid of the consequences of truth.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery wants you to figure out if your husband is abusive.
Who Pays The Price Of My Husband’s Abuse
Coach Jo: The way I look at it is, who’s paying the price tag for these behaviors. Everybody’s okay with the wife paying the price tag for the behaviors, but nobody wants to put it on the perpetrator. That is a huge shift which is, hold on a second. I pay the price tags for my actions and you need to pay them for yours.
Anne: Why do you think that is? Why do you think the typical professional in this doesn’t mind having the woman pay the price tag, but they really have a hard time with the man paying it?
Coach Jo: There’s an image that’s maintained of the man being just a hapless victim of his own actions. Which is kind of insulting, quite frankly.
Anne: Insulting to him, you mean?
Coach Jo: Absolutely, but I’m looking at somebody that makes the same choice 10, 12, 20, 100 times in a row, and it’s a conscious decision. He actually has to make an effort to make these choices. He’s got free will and he’s exercising it. Why can’t we look at that and say, all right. Now, what are we going to do?
Oh, he’s a big, goofy, nice guy who doesn’t really understand what he’s doing. Give him a break. Just be nicer. Just communicate better. He’ll get it eventually that’s the prevailing paradigm.
Anne: Which only benefits him. It doesn’t benefit the victim at all.
Decisions After Finding Safety From An Abusive Husband
Anne: So after you had such success and healing through BTR, you decided that you wanted to be a BTR coach. Can you talk more about why you made that decision?
Coach Jo: It’s just such a beautiful community to be a part of. Seeing women grow, become strong, Make decisions that will benefit them and their families moving forward.
I absolutely loved when I was in group. Women dream again and dreaming in myself something different for my life that may or may not include marriage. That may or may not include dating, there was a sense of freedom. To be a part of that was just so special. And also helping women through the rough times.
Sitting with them, to be a comfort and to give language where none existed before. And then maybe help them focus their hope towards a brighter future. And just seeing that happen was just so beautiful. The desire to be a part of that was overwhelming.
Anne: We’re so grateful to have you. You’re such an important part of our team.
Combining Professional Skills With Coaching
Anne: Coach Jo had an amazing career that she could have continued. She decided to stop and do this because she wanted her career and her work life to be more fulfilling. You have all these amazing skills that you bring to the table when you coach at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Coach Jo: Yeah. BTR fit with everything that I have loved in my professional career with finance. So the additional training that I’ve been able to take as a BTR coach for divorce. Some in finance and with some of the legalities were right in my wheelhouse.
Then combining that with being able to walk with women. As they go through these just courageous journeys In dealing with the abuse and transforming through all of it. It’s a fulfilling culmination of putting all the skills to good use to help women.
The Value Of Personal Abuse Experience
Anne: One of the things I think is so important with abuse coaching is having someone who has experience, personal experience. All of the coaches here at BTR have been through this. They’ve all experienced this type of abuse, and then they also have the training so they know what it feels like to have their husband cheat on them. So we all have experience with deciding if we should stay married after infidelity.
They know what it feels like to tell people and not get help. All of our coaches here really understand it on a visceral level. But also educated, all of us at BTR have been through the harrowing adventure that is healing from betrayal trauma.
Helping Women Through Healing
Anne: Can you talk about helping women through that as a coach? Because I think that’s another thing that perhaps influencers or therapists might give people. The impression that oh, as soon as you change this, things will go really fast for you. You’ll be fine kind of a thing.
I’m just thinking of a few influencers that I know. They have these fix your marriage workshops. They’re like six classes, each class is a half hour or so. It’s the static thing online. You check off some boxes. Like, did you tell him how you feel? Great. Box checked. Did you do this? Check. As if there’s some magic thing that can solve all these problems quickly. Or he stopped using. Yay. Check. It’s over with.
Coach Jo: That’s so scary
Anne: It’s so scary.
The Reality Of The Healing Process when Your Husband Is Abusive
Anne: I know this is a journey. It’s hard for me to say that because I want to give women hope that safety is possible. Also to have realistic expectations. A friend was over at my house the other night and she was feeling really terrible. She’s about to file for divorce and she is just not feeling great.
I said to her, I promise you’re going to feel better in, and then I paused and I said, are you ready for me to tell you how long? I said, definitely. At least three years. It’s like the most awful thing to say to someone. But it also kind of liberates you to know I’m not weird. I’m not crazy. There’s nothing wrong with me, that it’s taking a while for me to extricate myself from this nightmare. Because it’s a nightmare.
Coach Jo: Yeah, absolutely And the idea is not that, you go through purgatory for three years and all of a sudden you’ve arrived. It is a process. It’s like a snowball rolling downhill over time. Incrementally, you’re adding on to your confidence, belief in yourself, knowledge, and skills to be out in the world. You’re building a life. That takes time. It’s a beautiful incremental step by step process and being a part of Betrayal Trauma Recovery while you’re going through that process.
The Importance Of Community & Vision
Coach Jo: BTR provides language, provides support in the form of community. And other women who are going through it with you. It also provides vision. You see they’ve been here for two years and they’re finally wrapping up their divorce. That healing that has taken place along the way, you’re a witness. Even if that’s not where you’re at on your path, it does show you that a different future is possible. It’s a baby step process.
It’s beautiful as a coach to be able to have the client look in the rear view mirror and see how far they’ve come. I think that’s one of the greatest gifts of coaching. You know, you’re going through the hard stuff, but it’s also being able to remind somebody. Remember when we started out back here and look how far you’ve come.
Anne: Everybody’s path is different it doesn’t have to include divorce. Regardless of what you choose and where your path leads you, BTR can help you on that path.
Encouragement When Your Experiencing aBuse in Your marriage
Anne: If someone is listening and this is the first episode they’ve ever heard of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and they’re thinking, I’m not sure my husband is abusive. This sounds kind of extreme. I don’t know. Maybe I should try couple therapy first. What would you say to them?
Coach Jo: Check your gut because there’s a reason why you’re listening. Do an inner inventory. Be really honest, it’s scary at first. Then, bring in points of view from women who have gone through it. Give BTR a shot. Nobody at BTR is going to push you anywhere you don’t want to go. No Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach is going to try and direct you somewhere . You’re going to determine your path, your pace.
Anne: I had a hard time considering it was abuse. It was emotional and psychological abuse and coercion that I was dealing with. I didn’t want that to be the case because I didn’t want the consequences of it. Sometimes people wonder, if I get educated about abuse, am I going to see it where it isn’t?
That’s like saying, if you’re a hammer, everything’s a nail. Am I going to say it’s abuse if it’s not that? Women listening whose husbands are not abusive tell me, I didn’t really relate. Abuse education is just abuse education. It doesn’t create abuse when abuse doesn’t exist. As we describe these things, if you relate, that is exactly what’s happening to me. You can know if your husband is abusive. Then you can start making decisions in the light of truth.
Healing From His Abuse Through The Living Free Workshop
Anne: That’s one thing we do really well here, is give women very concrete ways to improve their safety, and they can observe at a safe distance to see what the reality of their situation is, what they really couldn’t see before.
Coach Jo: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is excellent at defining what boundaries are, what they look like, and a practical map for how to use them. One of the most important ideas that I did not grasp during the first marriage or the second marriage was that you can’t be perfect enough to stop abuse.
So spinning your wheels, trying to get everything right, keep all the plates spinning. Do it with a smile on your face, don’t react or be harsh. Communicate things that make him feel good about himself or whatever the paradigm is. Can’t do it right enough to fix whatever’s happening with him. You can’t stop his abuse by being more perfect. Identifying that my husband was abusive was just the first step.
Anne: Or even by getting them in the right program. There’s lots of things that would apply there.
Coach Jo: Yeah, say it right, do it right, find the right instructor, the right video.
Anne: Find the right video, therapist, this, or that. It’s crazy, all the things.
Coach Jo: Have my cousin’s husband talk to him, maybe that’ll fix it.
Anne: Exactly.
Coach Jo: The proof is in the pudding. He’s been doing this for years, and people know right and wrong. I think that’s the hardest thing to come to grips with is that this is a conscious decision. Watching what’s happening and looking at that in reality and saying, Hey, hold on a second.
Making Decisions That Create Safety
Coach Jo: This is a conscious decision, and so in turn I have to start making conscious decisions. About my emotional safety, the safety of my family, what does safety look like in my context? The beauty of Betrayal Trauma Recovery is that we’ll walk alongside as you figure it out. Sometimes the spouses do come alongside. So what you were saying before, it doesn’t always end in divorce. A spouse can choose to come alongside and walk that new path.
Anne: Yeah, we have no idea what’s going to happen. I wish we did. I wish there were some guarantees. That’s what we all wanted when we started this journey. It was just something to let us know that we would be okay. And the good news is there’s a way to be okay. There’s a way to heal and away to live a life of peace. There’s a way to thrive. We don’t know exactly how you’re going to apply the principles of safety, but we do know what those principles of safety are.
And that is why I think other programs are dangerous. They assume that if you just educate him a little bit better that he’ll be able to do the right thing, which doesn’t make sense because he knows how to do the right thing. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be able to even act like he knew how to do the right thing. If he didn’t know what the right thing was.
You can learn the truth about Your marriage
Anne: Coach Jo is available to do Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions with clients. She also runs several of our group sessions. Attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions is a great way to get to know all the coaches. And see which one you jive with, and then do an individual session from there. Our coaches are all incredible. They’re all so knowledgeable. And the most important thing, they’ve all been through it. They all totally understand what you’re going through.
Anne: You’re amazing coach Jo. I love having you on the BTR team. And I’m so glad that we got to talk today on the podcast so the listeners get to know you better. Thank you so much.
Coach Jo: Absolutely, Anne. I appreciate being on the team with you. It’s such a joy.
14 Emotional Abuse Survivor Stories: How To Heal & Move Forward
Oct 01, 2024
Emotional abuse survivors overwhelmingly report that hearing other emotional abuse survivor stories helped them get to emotional safety.
Hearing Survivor Stories Offers Hope and Validation: Many emotional abuse survivors find that listening to others’ stories helps them feel less alone, validated, and supportive in their journey toward emotional safety.
Support Groups Provide Crucial Comfort and Community: Joining online support groups, like BTR, offers emotional survivors a sense of routine, understanding, and connection with others who share similar experiences.
BTR Helps Survivors Recognize and Understand Abuse Patterns: Through coaching and community, survivors learn to identify abusive behaviors, understand their trauma, and develop strategies for healing and safety.
Stories Show the Power of Education and Resources: Sharing survivor stories helps women realize they are not crazy, empowering them with the knowledge needed to break free from abuse and seek healing.
Healing Is Accelerated Through Connection and Support**: Continued participation in groups and therapy, along with shared experiences, significantly transforms survivors’ lives, helping them feel safe, validated, and stronger.
Transcription: Emotional Abuse Survivor Stories
Anne: Today’s episode is a montage of stories from emotional abuse survivors.
I’m also super humbled as I listened to these stories.
I honor all the women searching for answers. Who are genuinely trying to save their families. Not knowing what to do and getting harmful information from therapists, internet articles or clergy. Including resources that haven’t helped them understand the abuse.
Honoring Survivor Stories
I want to thank everyone for listening. Above all I hope that BTR is helpful. The thought of any woman being in an abusive situation and not understanding what it is, is heartbreaking to me. Also, a thank you to all of you who have shared our material on social media or shared it with friends. In an effort to educate more women. So with that, here are their stories.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #1
I have been in therapy for 12 years. Only now have I felt that I have the expert care and clarity that I have been searching for. You and this whole group are what I call, proactive. Where before it was just wishy washy, hit or miss, psycho-babble type of therapy. This group is exactly what women need, to recover from betrayal trauma, and I cannot thank you enough.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #2
This group is new to me. I have been in not a good place for about three years. This is the first time that I have had other people share their stories. Where I felt so validated. I could totally relate. This isn’t just me. I’m not going crazy. I can stand my ground and create boundaries to keep myself safe. To keep my kids safe. I have multiple daily options to check in, check out, share, not share, listen. The isolation that I felt before is starting to dissipate.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #3
I arrived at BTR in full blown trauma. Never having known what he was doing for years, and prior to we were married. Thank God that this is the place that I found. Because there was love and nurturing and education. All of the coaches are friends to walk with me and support me and I will forever be grateful.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #4
I had been in therapy for a while, years, and at least a year with Chuck before I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. There were no breakthroughs or anything. It was just the same cycle. Now that I know what it is, it was the same cycle of abuse. Happening over and over and over again with no real solution.
When I found BTR, I I honestly was trying to find reasons in my head as to why the group wouldn’t be good for me. Because I knew it was gonna change everything about my life. It did because I joined the group right before I initially separated from Chuck. So having BTR during that time of separation got me through. And then helped me make the decision to separate permanently and just not want to be with him anymore.
I wouldn’t be here and be growing the way that I am without BTR.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #5
Betrayal Trauma Support Group has been very important for me through this journey. I can just very succinctly say that it has saved my life. Chiefly I would say just simply that. Without BTR I wouldn’t be here.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #6
For years we’d have fights. I would go to the internet to find out how I could be better. So that we could stop having fights, I would always search.
And article after article was never right. I just knew. And finally one day I stumbled upon the BTR podcast and I don’t really like listening to them. I like to read them so I’m thankful for the transcript. I finally knew that what I was reading was right. When I had a name for what was going on in my marriage. I could finally start to work to fix it and fixing it has meant not what I thought it would. It has saved my life too.
So without BTR, I wouldn’t have a name for what I experienced and I wouldn’t have the healing.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #7
I didn’t ever think that I would be In the position that I’m in, I was with my ex fiancé from the age of 13 for 20 years. He was living a double life. I found BTR when I was staying in hotels.
I had nowhere else to go and I booked a one on one with a coach. And I haven’t looked back. I have learned so much every single day that I hop on group. I see women that I am inspired by and women who are ahead of me in the journey. Women who are following me on the journey. We’re all on different journeys, but somehow the connection that we have and the love that we share is really real.
So thank you so much. I don’t know what I would have done without BTR for the last 12 months.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #8
I found BTR to be really helpful. In fact Betrayal Trauma Group Sessions are really helpful at connecting with other people going through this. Not feeling alone. Recognizing that there are lots of actually super capable, strong, determined, people experiencing abuse at different stages along the way.
I found the Group Sessions to be really helpful. Also he podcast is really nice just to listen to and understand broader patterns and trends. I wish people didn’t have to find this on their own, I’m really glad BTR exists.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #9
Discovery was in 2011, of addiction. There’s just no support out there for women, other than the groups that are available in that realm.
And my therapist of many years never mentioned the word abuse. I felt like I was duped, I started attending BTR Group Sessions. I learned so much from the coaches, I was terrified with a learning disability. And think I could never do this. I could never, ever, ever be free from a covert narcissist.
As I’m going through all this, the post separation abuse was just heinous. And since then, with the help of BTR through this process and as I am safe. In my new place, I’m now starting to process it even more. Because I had been so busy going through all the process of divorce and everything else.
And due to all the coaches and the love and support. They have allowed me to have such great strength. I’m realizing I am worth it. I am enough. BTR is a lifesaver and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. You helped save my life and I am now free and I am now safe.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #10
I feel like attending BTR.ORG Group Sessions helped me create some routine in my life. Additionally something I can do every single day.
It has just created some routine and structure and support in a life that I currently have. Which is very chaotic and unpredictable and challenging. And I genuinely feel like I like meeting with all the coaches because they have different perspectives. Each coach, has a different vibe.
That’s really helpful. That’s been great. I’ve only been doing this a couple months, but I’m really happy. I don’t think I’m going to stop anytime soon. It’s a really beautiful community of women who’ve been doing it for a long time. It’s really cool to see those connections and to be building them.
Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #11
I’ve been through this for over 30 years of dealing with this in my life. I’ve been in BTR for five months. My life has changed more in the last five months than all of those years that I went through. I so appreciate all of the coaches just the clarity has helped me through a lot of individual sessions, group sessions.
I really appreciate that everyone has something different. Similarly all the shares help you understand other ways to do self care and stay safe. I really appreciate BTR. I can’t say enough about it. It’s changed my life.
Survivor Story #12
Betrayal Trauma Recovery was literally an answer to prayer for me. After disclosure, I really didn’t know what to think about my situation.
After almost 30 years being with my husband, I felt like I was brainwashed. Also I didn’t know what to do. I prayed and I did a Google search and I found the podcast and it literally changed my life.
After a year, I feel so much more empowered and connected and validated. I have so much clarity on the trauma that I had been going through. Everything just started to make sense.
I’m a completely different person than I was a year ago. I just love this group.
Survivor Story #13
BTR Group Sessions and Individual Sessions. They have all been an amazing space for me to be able to find safety, encouragement, and support. BTR has helped me and continues to help me as I’m still in this process. To be reminded that I’m not crazy and that I can watch for the signs. I can check in with myself and check in with my body, I know the symptoms of betrayal trauma.
I’m grateful to have this community. It’s been really important to help me be able to recover. And I look forward to recovering more.
Survivor Story #14
Well, I found BTR.ORG through Instagram. Anne would post reels and I realized they were about me. They helped me so much. So I started attending BTR Group Sessions. It was like finally having the place where everything in my life that didn’t make sense made sense. Because there could be words put to it. I wasn’t alone and to be able to literally put the voices from group in my, in my ears. And be able to hear that as things are happening in my life.
It’s just been life changing. It’s been a great support.
Setting Boundaries When You Are An Emotional Abuse Survivor
Anne created The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop for emotional abuse survivors to understand and implement boundaries, check it out today.
Voicing The Agony of Betrayal Trauma Through Music – Ralynne’s Story
Sep 24, 2024
Voicing the agony of betrayal trauma can come in many different forms. Ralynne Riggs, a professional singer and victim of betrayal and abuse, shares her experience. She created a YouTube cover of the song Anything Worth Holding On To.
This music video really captures the emotions that women go through when they’re experiencing betrayal trauma. So many women feel this way. They’re going to relate when they see it. Once you see it, you’ll know what I’m talking about. It’s incredible. And I really want to get this video out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0UGEHQNHKw
The Agony Of Betrayal: Help Us Go Viral
Anne: So maybe with your help. We can get it to go viral. Anything you can do to help us go viral would be greatly appreciated. So go to YouTube and watch it. Like it, share it, subscribe to our YouTube channel.
Ralynne Voices Her Agony Through Music
Anne: Ralynne Riggs is the woman who created this music video. She was born and raised in Chandler, Arizona. Her passions include singing, dancing, acting, horseback riding, baking and making movies. As you will see when you go to our YouTube channel. As well as being the favorite aunt to her beautiful nieces and nephews.
Since she was young, her greatest passion has been the stage. She received her bachelor’s degree in vocal performance from Brigham Young University and has performed as a leading soprano throughout the U. S., China, and Austria. After graduation, she became a lead singer for Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida and on a Disney cruise line.
Ralynne has learned the importance of hard work, confidence, self worth, and perseverance in bringing one’s dreams to life. Her mantra is you can do anything. If you just do it. Welcome Ralynne.
Ralynne: Thank you so much Anne.
Anne: So I’m hoping by this time people have paused this podcast. They’ve gone to our YouTube channel. They have seen this amazing music video that you made. I hope they shared it and commented. I’m hoping that they’re letting their friends and family know about this incredible video. Also that they’re understanding that this can help their friends and family. And other people understand the pain that victims go through.
So you were prompted to create this video to help educate people about betrayal trauma.
Initial Discovery Of His Betrayal
Anne: But before we get to that and what happens with that, let’s start with your own personal story. Did you know about your husband’s pornography addiction before you married?
Ralynne: I did know a little bit about his addiction before we were married. There was one night when after things were more serious in our dating that he approached me. He said there were things in his past that he wanted to make me aware of. So that I truly knew everything about him. He shared with me that he struggled with this throughout his teenage years.
But you know, I was kind of naive to the problem, to how serious a addiction could be. What that all entailed. I didn’t know the right questions to ask. I thought, well no one’s perfect, and I asked him if he had struggled with it since. Because he said he had cleaned up and didn’t struggle with it at all.
To me, I thought, well, that was brave of him to bring that up with me and share it with me. And I believed him and I didn’t know what else to ask about it.
The Agony Betrayal: Your Husband Is Lying To You
Anne: Even if you had, because we know that users often lie about their use. Or abusive men often lie and manipulate. So even if you had known the so-called right questions to ask, that likely wouldn’t have helped you. https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-from-infidelity/
What we find helps women more, and you know this now, is what behaviors to look for. And you also didn’t know that at the time what betrayal trauma from infidelity feels like. What was your reaction to his disclosure about viewing and acting out with explicit material after you married?
The Agony Of Betrayal: Infidelity
Ralynne: Well it was about five months into our marriage that he called me very distraught and crying. And telling me that I needed to come home because he needed me. I didn’t know what was going on. And then I got home. He shares with me that he viewed and acted out to explicit material. In my mind I was thinking, okay. So all of a sudden after four or five years of not viewing it, you’ve gone back to it.
Why? So, as a new bride, I of course was sitting there in utter shock. I felt immediately like it had something to do with me. Was I not enough? Why would he go back to this now? And I mostly was just in shock and disbelief. But he also seemed so sorry when he told me that. My immediate reaction was, I love you.
Thank you for being honest with me and telling me about it. Let’s go meet with our bishop and get a therapist and start working through this together. I literally told him, use me when you need to use me, let’s be open and get through this together. Use me as far as, if you’re feeling tempted, talk to me, tell me when you’ve done it.
Let’s be open and honest. Part of me was like, hey, well, if you’re feeling the urge. Hello, we married. Let me know, like, why would you turn to that instead of turning to me, your wife? I know now, that those were a lot of the wrong things to do.
Not Understanding The Need For Safety During The Agony Of Betrayal
Anne: I’m guessing you didn’t understand the emotional abuse that you experienced.
Ralynne: Not at all.
Anne: And I’m guessing, you also didn’t understand, boundaries or keeping yourself safe?
Ralynne: I knew nothing about that because it did not register in my mind that anything had been done to me. At that point.
Anne: Yeah, you’re just thinking, Oh, this is too bad for him, but I can help him through it. Kind of like he got a broken finger or something. Describe what happened in your personal life during this time. And what were your days like as you tried to “help” your husband worked through his addiction.
Ralynne: They were pretty awful for me, long story short, I kind of took on the problem. I’m a go getter in all of the things that I do in life.
It’s not surprising to me that I took everything on my shoulders. I became very worried about doing check ins with him. And I was even worried when I talked to him if he was telling me the truth or not. Setting up appointments for therapy, we went together and we went separately. Then I was told about addiction recovery programs and started going to those. I didn’t realize I was experiencing the agony of betrayal trauma.
But as we went, there was no real desire or effort coming from him to want to go. It was like I was dragging him along, which made things worse. Then I felt like I was fighting harder for something that wasn’t even really my issue to begin with. But it was becoming my issue and it was consuming my days.
Betrayal; The Agony Of Trying To Solve The Same Problem Over & Over
Ralynne: And I actually was let go from my job. In that meeting my boss said, ultimately he was very sorry, but I was just so sad all the time. He had to let me go. That was a huge wake up call for me. Because that is not a way I’ve ever been described in my life.
Usually people associate me with words like you’re so bubbly and so happy. And so outgoing, to see that I had become this sad person that couldn’t even hide my sadness. Everything was spiraling the other way and affecting my life in a very negative way was a huge wake up call for me. The agony of betrayal trauma was so intense, I became this kind of introverted ball of depression, tears and anxiety.
The Agony Of Losing Yourself Due To Betrayal
Ralynne: I began to have panic attacks, which I had never experienced before in my life. And it just seemed like I could not succeed anywhere. I couldn’t succeed at my job and I couldn’t succeed at home. Everything was just so dark and hopeless during that time. I lost myself completely just trying to survive each day. I became very numb through that whole process.
Realization Of His Betrayal
Anne: So, you did not realize at that time that you were a victim of abuse. You didn’t realize that the reason this was happening was because you were a victim of abuse. But you did start to realize that you were suffering from the agony of betrayal trauma. How did you realize the betrayal trauma piece?
Ralynne: My ecclesiastical leader had been told by my husband that I was depressed. Because that’s what my husband was blaming things on. I was suffering from depression. So, my ecclesiastical leader met with me and I said, I’m not depressed, this is what’s going on.
I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, what’s betrayal trauma? I had no idea what that was at the time.
Recognizing the Emotional and Psychological Abuse Inherent in Betrayal
Ralynne: The coach at BTR.ORG did expound further and mention the different types of abuse that were going on emotional, spiritual, mental, all of those things. And I just listened to her say that in disbelief. But as she said it, it kind of dawned on me.
Of course, that makes complete sense. But as most people, when I think of abuse, I don’t think of all the emotional types of abuse . And I especially wouldn’t associate that with me. I would never think my spouse would be someone who would be emotionally, spiritually, and mentally abusing me. The agony of betrayal trauma was so intense.
But unfortunately that was the reality. It wasn’t until I spoke with her that all those light bulbs went on and I realized how bad the situation was.
Anne: Yeah. It’s a lot worse than people imagine. I think it’s really interesting how victims don’t recognize how bad the situation is. Because everyone listening to this podcast has been through it, everyone can empathize with you. And be like, yeah, that’s exactly how it was for me.
I think that’s one thing that we need to educate people about in regard to abuse is that victims don’t always know what is happening to them. What is the most difficult thing you realized throughout this experience?
The Hardest Realization During The Agony Of Betrayal
Ralynne: The most difficult thing that I realized throughout this experience was the fact that I could not save my husband. No matter how many times I went to therapy or how many times I prayed. Or how many times I took him to a recovery class. No matter how hard I try to save our marriage and help him, I was powerless. I had to learn that his actions were separate from mine.
That his actions did not have anything to do with me, even though that’s the hardest thing I think for a spouse to believe. But that they didn’t have anything to do with me. That it was all his choices, his actions. There was absolutely nothing I could do about it.
Anne: When women find out that they’re being abused, they think one of their options is to help him stop being abusive. And that’s never an option because it never works. So there’s either, he just stops on his own somehow and then you’re safe or you have to start setting boundaries.
knowing what you know now, if you could go back in time and do it over again. Which none of us can, but we’ve all thought this, what would you have done differently?
And this question isn’t meant to like, Oh, what should you have done? But to educate women who are currently in this situation, to help them know what to do now.
Ralynne: Yes. Well, first of all, I would have loved to know right away. It’s not my fault and I can’t blame myself. Or take it on my shoulders. So knowing that, I would definitely take that off of myself right away.
Secondly, I would have done a lot more research before finding a therapist that we met with. Because we just went with someone recommended to us by our ecclesiastical leader. Who was not qualified in any way regarding abuse. I also would be more vocal about it. Because the decision that we made when it first happened. Was that we didn’t want to share with our family what’s going on.
Because we didn’t want either person to be viewed in a bad light or gossiped about amongst our family. And we decided we could get through it together on our own with each other and with our therapist. I think that was also a huge mistake because It allowed him to continue to get away with not having to own up to his addiction. And the problems that were happening within our marriage because of it.
I think if we would have involved our parents. At least as a support, it maybe would have helped him to be more accountable right away. Rather than feeling like he could keep hiding it.
Importance of a Support Network
Anne: Maybe, let me put your heart at ease in that regard. I told everyone. My ex didn’t want me to, but then it ended up getting used against me by my in-laws. So it can go either way. I’m not saying people should or shouldn’t tell other people, but just know that both of them have risks.
Anne: But I do think victims need a safe support network. You don’t know if someone is safe if you don’t try. So even if you try and it doesn’t go so well with a particular person. Your mother-in-law, a father-in-law, even your own parents, at least you tried to see if they were safe. This also happens with your abusive husband’s therapist. Which you won’t know if you don’t try. So try, and then if they are unsafe, you can always set boundaries or pull back later. But building a really strong support network is really important.
Ralynne: Yes, and with setting boundaries, again, that was a concept that I didn’t know about. It was brought to my knowledge way too far into the issue. So, if I knew about that and went through something like this again. Or could do it again, I immediately would have started setting safe boundaries and sticking to them.
The Agony Betrayal: Gaslighting
Ralynne: Because trying to do that two years into problems already going on. Immediately turned into him feeling like, what you’re going to punish me now. As if I already don’t feel bad enough, you’re going to punish me now. And he just reacts in the way that he was a child and he punished. How could I do that to him when he was already hurting so much. So boundaries never worked for us.
Anne: Well, they worked for you, they didn’t work for your abuser. And then he was trying to get around the abuse by saying that stuff. But that was meant to manipulate you to drop your boundaries. That was a calculated way of trying to convince you, gaslight you, manipulate you, lie to you, so you would drop the boundaries.
So, did your boundaries work? For you, yes. So when people say boundaries didn’t work for us, I always want to tell women, Oh, no, they’re always going to work for you. They might not work for your abuser, but great! If they don’t work for your abuser, then yay! If he’s mad because he can’t abuse you anymore, fantastic!
You’ve done yourself a favor and if someone is abusive and you set a boundary, their abuse will escalate. So they’ll manipulate you more, they’ll get more angry. If they’re not abusive and you set a boundary, things will slowly get better over time. So setting a boundary is always going to help victims know their baseline safety situation, which is good.
Why It’s Important To Voice Your Agony At His Betrayal
Anne: Okay, so let’s talk about this music video. Again, I’m going to pause here one more time. Go to our YouTube channel, Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Watch this video. We just posted it. Please subscribe to our channel. Share it with your friends and family, share it on Facebook, share it everywhere you can.
Please help us get this video out so other people can understand the pain and suffering that women go through. Because Ralynne has done such a good job of illustrating this.
I got an email a while ago that said, Hey, I’m Ralynne Riggs. I’m a singer. I want to create a music video. We started talking and became friends. I am inspired by you. That you create a music video. And then you put your whole heart and soul into it and made this incredible video. It’s an illustration of pain and also hope.
How Music Helped Heal The Pain Of Betrayal
Anne: So please tell our audience, what inspired you to create it?
Ralynne: Well, this song became a song that was very important to me as part of my survival and healing. When I was in the middle of all of this experience and it was just on my mind For a while. I’m not gonna lie.
It had been on my mind for about a year and a half. I waited too long to make this, but the song gave words to my pain and exactly what I was feeling so poignantly. That it was such a strength to me. Music has done that for me through my whole life and I just thought you know I wonder if I should make a music video.
To do this and just spread awareness about what happens to the spouse in this situation. Because there’s so much help out there and support for the addict or for the abuser.
And I feel like, in my personal experience and in my experiences with other women that I met in support groups. That we often are the ones pushed aside. While we are asked to hold on a little longer while our husband gets help. And we’re left with all of these emotions and this agony of betrayal trauma and we don’t know what to do with it.
Encouraging Victims Experiencing The Agony Of Betrayal
Ralynne: So I wanted to make this video in hopes that if there is another woman out there on the other end of the computer screen. That was going through what I was going through or who has been through it. And they’re out there searching for support or help or to know what’s happening to them. I wanted to make this for them.
Because the faster they can know about it. The faster they can find the help and the resources for healing, the better. I’m grateful that I found BTR.ORG. It has been such a saving grace.
I know there’s thousands of women out there going through this and I don’t want them to suffer or feel hopeless any longer than they need to. So that was my hope. My simple hope in doing this is that even if one woman out there going through the agony of betrayal trauma watches this. And then finds a community of love and support to help her heal. It’ll have been worth it.
Anne: You said something that’s really interesting. You said that women are just asked to wait. Like, just hold on a little bit longer.
The Agony Of Him Not Changing & Lack Of Safety
Anne: But what they’re not told is that you may not be safe while waiting. They’re not told, How can we help create a seriously safe environment for you where you can wait from a safe distance? I think that is one reason why the trauma is so bad. Even with professionals or church leaders or other people. It’s impossible to recover from betrayal trauma when you’re not getting the right information. We weren’t sort of like cocooned in a safe place during the waiting period. https://www.btr.org/recover-from-betrayal-trauma
In fact, the abuse escalates and escalates and escalates. We are encouraged to “do our part” or to be supportive. When really we’ve been abused that whole time and it hasn’t stopped the abuse. This video, it really hit home, the abuse that we experience during that time. I love that end where she just takes another woman’s hand. And that network of support is waiting for women.
All over the world. It doesn’t necessarily have to be Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It could be friends at work or It could be anyone who can reach out and buoy you up and help you. Your video just showed that so well.
Ralynne: Thank you so much. I a hundred percent agree with you. But what about you in the meantime? How do you remain safe? None of that was ever addressed with me. I remember asking the third time I was asked to hold on and keep waiting. I remember my reply was, why would I keep fighting and holding on for something that makes me so miserable and is so abusive? And there was no answer, really, for me from that person.
Anne: Well you get a divorce.
Ralynne: Yes.
Ralynne’s Healing Journey Healing From The Pain Of Betrayal Trauma
Anne: Do you feel like creating this video has helped you heal?
Ralynne: I do. The way I was raised and what I’ve been taught in my faith is that everything happens for a reason. Through all of this, I’ve often struggled. Because I’ve sat there and thought, what have I done to deserve this?
I’ve been a loyal, faithful wife and stayed true. I’ve tried to love unconditionally and endlessly, and this is what I get for it. How is this fair? And that’s been something I’ve really struggled with. But I’ve tried to have the outlook of how is this making me stronger? And what’s the purpose? And that’s been something that I’ve been so grateful with making this video.
Because as soon as I started taking action and making plans to have this made and reaching out to people. And getting volunteers to be in it and just producing it. There were so many little miracles that immediately fell into place.
I could not deny that God’s hand was in it. And I felt so happy and good knowing I was doing something. That he was guiding me to do and would hopefully lead to helping a lot of women. And as we finished making the video, I just thought, you know, I’m so grateful.
Help Us Reach Other Women Who Are Suffering
Ralynne: This is the first time I’ve been able to make beauty out of these ashes of the agony of betrayal trauma. Make a little bit of sense or have some good come from the worst years of my life ever. And I’m so grateful. I’m grateful that I followed the prompting and have made it. I only hope that it does what I’ve been hoping that it would do and help so many women. It has definitely helped me heal.
Anne: Our hope, Ralynne’s and mine is that we can get this video to go viral. The reason we wanted to do that is because so many women are in this situation. They don’t understand what is happening to them. It’s very important that we help women get educated about abuse. What it looks like, what it sounds like, and what to look for if your husband says he’s in “recovery from addiction.”
How to tell the difference between someone who is just grooming you, and saying they’re in recovery and going through the motions. And someone who is genuinely a safe person. They’re two completely different things. So again, please go to our YouTube channel if you haven’t already. Watch it, share it.
A Community To Support Women Who’ve Been Betrayed
Anne: I am so grateful for Ralynne for following these promptings to help women throughout the world find peace after the agony of betrayal trauma, to help them know that they are not alone.
So even if it doesn’t go viral, if some women find out about BTR.ORG who have not found out about it before. Or if some women watch this video and realize, wait a minute, this is what has been happening to me. Then it will have been a success. So thank you, Ralynne, for coming on today’s episode to talk about your experience.
Ralynne: Thank you so, much for having me, and allowing me to share my story. And thank you to everyone who’s watched so far, I hope it helps you.
My Husband Lied To Me: Call For D-Day Stories
Sep 17, 2024
“My husband lied to me,” she repeated over and over. For a woman who finds out her husband has been lying to her for years, she always remembers the day she discovered his secret life. We frequently call it D-day or discovery day. Has this happened to you?
Anne: Women who discover something awful about their husband always remember the day they found out. We frequently call D-day or discovery day, and generally they realize, “My husband lied to me.” It could stand for destruction day. Women who go through this divide time by before and after. Over the years, I’ve heard hundreds of thousands of D-Day stories. If you’re listening, I want you to think about your D-Day or how many D-Days you have. Some women have multiple D-days.
My Personal D-Day Story When My Husband Lied To Me
My second D- day is when I find out my husband lied to me many times. About all the lies he told and how much porn he used. It was shocking, but I still didn’t even know the truth.
And my third D-Day is the day he is under arrest for spraining my fingers. You can read all about the details in my book, which will come out soon.
https://youtube.com/shorts/KrRxSCGxPys
Corrie’s D-Day, My Husband Lied To Me
Anne: A member of our community, I’ll call her Corrie recorded her D-Day story and sent it in to share it with you.
Corrie: I just wanted to share about my D-Day, mostly because today is the three year anniversary of it. It was a Sunday, I was at church, and at that time I had a young, colicky baby.
So, church for me meant a lot of walking the halls and dealing with a sad baby. But that particular day, they had a special visitor come. I guess, from the Church’s Addiction Recovery Program, specifically on pornography addiction recovery. They came and talked to the women and men of my congregation about the Addiction Recovery Program.
I was only able to hear a little bit of it. Since I was in and out with the baby, but I was just thinking at the time, wow, I’m so grateful I don’t have to deal with that. So we went home after church, and we got the baby and my older daughter down for a nap. And I was just talking to my husband, and I said something like, “I’m glad you don’t have that problem, so we don’t have to deal with it.”
Then he has this look on his face, just this green, almost sick look. I said, “Am I right? We don’t have to deal with that, right?” I had thought it wasn’t even an issue. Before we married, I had asked him about it. But, my husband lied to me, he hadn’t been truthful. He had been living a lie. It was three days before our three year wedding anniversary. Which really pissed me off, because I was looking forward to our anniversary.
I have struggled with emotions, dealing with, sharing with, just feeling emotions. I grew up in a home where, especially negative emotions, were not okay. We don’t talk about real things or negative emotion. We don’t talk about depression, anxiety, or pornography addiction. I didn’t know how to handle it. So I just froze. It took me a long time, in fact, it wasn’t until this year. When my husband had another relapse, and I was done.
I started focusing on me, and that has helped me. It’s been good for me to look back on this, the third anniversary of my D-Day. And see the crushed person I was back then, and how it didn’t destroy my life.
Anne: Corrie, thank you so much for your bravery and recording your D-Day story.
Getting The Right Support
Anne: If you would like to record your D-Day story, you can record it on your phone using voice memo, and then email it to podcast@btr.org. If I get enough of them, I’ll compile them into one episode and air that in the future.
If you’ve just had a D-Day, the first one or the second, no matter what D-Day it is. When you find out “My husband lied to me.” And you don’t know what to do. The first step is to educate yourself about this type of abuse, and get the right support. When I went through it, even though I went for help. The professionals I went to knew nothing about abuse.
So their help actually prolonged my suffering. The couple therapists we went to, the pornography addiction recovery therapists, even the individual therapists, didn’t help me to identify that I was a victim of emotional and psychological abuse. and sexual coercion.
That’s why I started podcasting, so no other woman had to go through what I went through. So if you’ve had a D-Day and wondered where to turn. This podcast is a great way to educate yourself about the reality of your situation. The Living Free Workshop is also a great resource to learn about how to set boundaries and begin making your way to safety.
Even when she does, her husband is rarely held accountable by therapists, clergy, and family – let alone the law.
Sexual abuse is a serious crime and victims suffer devastating trauma as a result of their abuser’s choices. But women can heal and find peace again with support, safety, and self-care.
Sandy, an incredibly courageous member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community shares her story of intense and traumatizing betrayal and rape, and how she identified it abuse. Even when it was happening to her she didn’t know her husband was abusing her. Read the full transcript below.
Transcript: Can A Husband Sexually Abuse His Wife?
Anne: A member of our community. Sandy is on today’s episode. Not her real name, she’s using an alias. Because she’s going to be talking about how she experienced abuse. The perpetrator was her husband. We won’t go into details. Welcome, Sandy. Why don’t you just go ahead and start where you want to start.
A Husband Can Abuse His Wife By Sharing Explicit Photos
Sandy: It’s hard to know where to start because I feel like the timeline is complicated. I was raped by my husband and then about a week after that happened. I found out that there were pictures of me on pornography sites. They were two completely separate incidences because the pictures happened about eight years before. I just didn’t know about them until a friend of mine told me. She said I don’t think you know this but he puts pictures of you on pornography sites.
Anne: Wow. So you’re raped by your husband and then a week later, a friend says, you might not be aware, but there are some pictures of you on a pornography site.
Sandy: When I heard that, I don’t even know how to describe it. It was like horror. The sentence can knock the wind out of you and just make your spirit, my soul, like just torn apart. That’s the only way I can describe it.
Abusive Men Dismiss Their Partner’s Feelings & Desires
Sandy: I went home and I asked my husband if it was true, are pictures of me on pornography sites? He said, yes. I look back now and I think about that as the end of everything. We were married for 13 years at that point, but we were together for 15. This person that I had loved for 15 years, it’s like he didn’t exist anymore. I didn’t know who this person was who would do this to me.
Sandy: At that point, I hadn’t identified what he had done to me as rape.
Anne: Can you describe what you thought at the time had happened?
Sandy: I knew it was not good. I knew it wasn’t loving. It was very confusing. Why it was happening, what was going on. We had just had this terrible fight. The next thing I knew, he followed me up to the bedroom and I had my bathing suit on. I was taking it off. And the next I know, we’re having it, and I didn’t know why. I thought if I would ask him to stop, then he would yell at me more.
Clergy, Faith-Communities, & Friends Can Help Victims Of Marital Abuse
Sandy: I talked about this with some with some friends, and they said, that’s rape. I said he didn’t pin me down, didn’t hurt me. They said, yeah, but he didn’t have your consent. I said, no, I didn’t realize that at that point, there are actually degrees of rape. The rape hotline online support has first, second, third and fourth different grades or degrees of rape.
It was actually third or fourth degree rape. Friends and leadership from my church at the time told me, this is rape, call this hotline. They’ll point you in the right direction. You need to get help. And they kept pushing me to get help because they were very much, you’ll heal faster if you process this right away. This is abuse.
Sandy: Yeah, I definitely feel the Holy Spirit watching out for me, putting people in my life to really push me in the right direction.
Anne: That’s not a very common thing for clergy to help a rape victim identify the rape, especially when it’s her own spouse.
Sandy: And he didn’t punch me. He didn’t push me down.
Seeking Therapy & Reflecting On The Relationship
Sandy: They were really the ones who urged me to go to therapy by myself for abuse and trauma. It wasn’t one of these, “Oh, you guys need to get into couples counseling.” The church, all the friends I had, they were like, you need to heal from this before you can ever work on a relationship again. The same thing for him, they were like, he obviously has major issues. He needs to figure out what those are and get help for them before he can be in a relationship with you.
I felt like that all started me out on the right track, even though it was the harder track in some ways because I was very much just wanting things to get back to normal. I wanted my life back. Not to say that I had this perfect relationship or something like that. We definitely had issues.
Anne: Are you saying that at the time you didn’t really understand the extent of the issues?
Sandy: Yes. That’s a better way
Anne: Okay. So at the time you’re thinking, I know we have issues, but really, do I have to go through all this stuff?
Sandy: Yeah, I knew that it was bigger.
Men Abuse Their Wives By Stalking & Recording Them Without Consent
Sandy: Once I found out about the pictures especially, yes, there is more going on here than I ever realized. I think I was in denial for many years because at one point I found a hidden camera in our bedroom. I asked, what is this about? He said, when I take the kids to school, you get undressed and I miss taking pictures of you. Because he was always essentially stalking me when I would take a shower or when I would get undressed.
He always had the camera and he was always wanting to take pictures. And I was always like, oh my gosh, this is so annoying just let me take a shower. But I thought he’s my husband, he likes to see me naked that’s good, right? It all was warning signs. So anyway, I found the hidden camera and I was to really angry about it. He was like, okay, I won’t do it again. That was years before I knew about the pictures online or anything like that.
https://youtu.be/1FKUE9ep8n8
Anne: When you find out about the pictures, what becomes clear to you at this point? I mean have you been going to therapy at all before the rape, before these things? Or, have you been thinking, there’s something not quite right with my relationship, something’s weird going on. Or were you thinking, oh I have a great relationship.
Men Abuse Their Wives By Ignoring Familial & Emotional Needs
Anne: Can you talk about your thoughts before the rape, and then also before you found out about him posting porn?
Sandy: It’s hard to explain because I wouldn’t say there was anything seeming super wrong. Our relationship beforehand seemed fairly normal to me. I wanted him to pay attention to me more. I felt like I’m the mother of three kids and I was a stay at home mom and I was always just wanting him to come home and spend some time with me.
He had an excuse to go do something else, and he had decided he wanted to start this new business. I was like, Why? Don’t! Don’t start this business, please. I never see you, I need you to be home. I need you to be a part of this family. He just was like if you don’t want to be a part of it, you don’t have to, but I’m gonna do it anyway.
I was, of course, upset about that, but to me, it’s It’s nothing to get divorced over, but I just thought he’s going do what he wants to do, and I’ll stay out of it if I don’t like it.
Anne: Well, ironically, going to therapy at that time, you not knowing about abuse, couple therapy wouldn’t help you a whole lot.
Men Abuse Their Wives By Overtly Or Covertly Threatening Infidelity
Sandy: Yeah, I had no idea and so it was just this sort of we both felt busy, had my own business, he was starting a business, I just remember thinking like, I can’t wait till we can spend more time together. Looking back at everything, it’s a weird combination of, I was begging for his attention and he was also obsessed with me. He was obsessed with me in a that way. It was almost like I couldn’t have his attention any other way.
Anne: Because he’s taking pictures of you all the time, and he’s doing these things that make you feel uncomfortable. At the same time, at least it’s something.
Sandy: Right, and there was one point where I even thought I wonder if he’s seeing somebody else because he never comes straight home after work. I would call his work and I would say, Hey, has he left yet? They would say, yeah, he left two hours ago. I didn’t know what that was about, so I thought I’ll just put out when he wants because then he won’t have a reason to sleep with anyone else. Looking back, that was so stupid.
Anne: We’ve all been there Sandy, no it was not stupid. It makes total sense.
Sandy: Yeah. You don’t know what else to do. Our kids were so young. Looking back, I can tell I was like in a complete state of denial, really, about everything that was going on.
In Denial & Discovery Of Betrayal
Anne: I wouldn’t call it denial , because denial puts the fault on you. I would say that you were seeking safety. At the time, the safest thing to you was to have a good attitude or give it more because the alternative seemed terrifying. I wouldn’t call it denial as just really seeking safety and the alternative was too scary. The reason why I don’t want to call it denial is because they purposefully confuse and manipulate and lie.
So it’s not like you’re in denial about something that you know. It only confirms that you were a victim of psychological and emotional abuse. It sounds like you tried the oh, I’ll have it with him whenever he wants. I’ll try to be a better mom. I’ll try to, be better. Those things didn’t work. Then you find out about the pictures. Where do you go after that? What happens after you find out, he produces porn, of me. And he’s posting this online without my consent.
Sandy: Obviously, as I said before, I just felt torn apart. I did not know which way was up or what to do. I started therapy and the therapist was like, have people around you that help you to feel safe. Have people that you can talk to at any point, friends, family, whoever that is. Maybe it’s just one or two people.
Do everything you can to get back into doing things that you enjoy, that you find interesting. In the meantime, I was trying to figure out, okay, but how do I live with this person? Because at the time, I didn’t know that I wanted to get divorced or anything. I was just trying to figure out which way was up.
Considering Pressing Charges For Abuse
Anne: Did anybody at the time, did anyone indicate to you that you could press charges?
Sandy: Yeah, because I was still speaking with a person on the rape hotline pretty regularly. So I mentioned to this person about the pictures. They said I would need to get the police involved to get the pictures down, but be aware that if you go to the police, they may, in fact, press charges even if you don’t want them to. If he gets put on the offender list, he would lose his job. I could not make a decision, in regard to that, in my state of shock and trauma.
Sandy: I told him we need to get these pictures taken down. He said, okay, I’ll hire a private company. He told me the pictures were taken down by this private company that he hired.
Anne: One of the questions I have is, looking back now, do you think it would have been better to press charges?
Sandy: I do now. Obviously I’m not completely healed from the trauma, but I’m in a place where I can talk about it a little easier.
Going To The Police
Sandy: I actually did go to the police because I had panic attacks that the pictures weren’t actually down and I thought, I don’t know. He just continues to do things that make me nervous even though we’re not married and we’re not living together or anything.
We share custody of the kids but trauma comes back and I just sometimes I freak out, right? I thought, Okay, I’m just gonna go to the police. I had the list from the company that he hired of all of the links, which was six pages worth of links to my images. This is obviously abuse. When I take this to the police and they say okay, we’ll look into it.
Two years has passed since the crime. I did find out that yes, they are officially down. The company took them down, but they didn’t seem to think I could press charges. They didn’t really seem to care that this had been done and anything was told well, there’s nothing we can do.
It was two years ago, how can something be such a crime? He could have gone to jail or put on the offender list. So many things could have happened two years ago if I would have reported it. But now that it’s been two years, they’re like I don’t really see anything happening if we report this.
Is It The Abuser’s Voice Telling You Not To Report The Abuse?
Anne: One of the things I’m trying to help women understand is that when you don’t report something immediately, there are good reasons to report and good reasons not to report. We’re never judgmental around here about women reporting or not reporting. I want women to know that sense of, I can’t report this or I shouldn’t report this for some reason is usually the abuse talking.
Generally speaking most women, once they get past the trauma and they’re feeling better, really regret not reporting. If any victim is listening right now and they’re thinking, yeah my husband did do a crime and I haven’t reported it and should I report it or not. I would submit that the most likely thing happening currently is that it’s the abuse telling you not to report.
You’re so used to this abuse voice in your head and also the societal scripting or perhaps religious scripting, like he will lose his job or what about him? I had a discussion with a friend the other day and she was like, we really need to do these things and hold them accountable out of compassion for them. So that they can change.
But I said, it’s interesting as a victim of abuse, you don’t really have to, justify your actions through it’s the most compassionate thing he can change. You could also do it just out of sheer anger. You don’t have to be like I need to do it from a place of love. No, you can actually call the police from a place of anger or from a place of trauma or from a place of anything that you want. It’s fine.
Victims Can Let The Justice System Decide The Legal Consequences For Abuse
Anne: I think society has said to victims you can’t be an angry, bitter woman. If you’re going to do it, you have to do it from some place of forgiveness or some place of compassion. It’s just something for people to think about that as a victim of abuse you don’t owe your perpetrator anything.
Sandy: I had to get to that place because I completely agree now. I realized I did not do anything wrong. I was a victim of a crime. I need to report that crime.
That’s how I look at it now. Whereas before it was like you said. You can’t do this to him. It would destroy him and be so bad. It would be bad for his job. As well as thinking about our kids too. Besides, I did not do these things. I should not have to make that choice of whether or not he goes to jail. I was the victim. And I felt like that weight was on me to decide what his fate was.
Anne: Right, and just leave that up to the justice system, really. If someone witnessed someone stealing a car, you might be shaken up, you might pick up the phone and you might be like shaking because you saw this car get hijacked, let’s just pretend. Someone would not say to you, Oh let’s stop shaking before you call the police. Let’s make sure that you’re doing it from a place of really loving and having compassion for the guy that stole the car. Nobody says that.
Abusive Men Usually Commit to Stop, But Keep Doing It More Covertly
Anne: Talk about when you decide that you need to end the relationship and get a divorce.
Sandy: I feel like I spent about a year convincing him. That what he did was, obviously not right. He knew what he did wasn’t right, but he didn’t understand why he needed to go to therapy. He basically was like, I’m sorry, I won’t do it again.
I said, no, you need to get help. In fact he had one that he spoke to for a while, and I asked to sit in on conversation to talk about some of my concerns. I realized, with this therapist, he did not tell her half of what was going on. And I said what about this and this?
I said, don’t you see there’s a pattern, with the pictures, him following me around with the camera, the camera in the bedroom and pictures online, there’s a pattern here. There’s something wrong with him. At this point I was just starting to learn about addiction, pornography addiction, that kind of stuff. And the therapist says oh, you didn’t tell me about that. And I just thought, Oh my gosh. At that point he moved out.
Anne: Did any of the therapists that work with you or him say that he’s an abuser?
Sandy: No, they didn’t.
Non-Consensual touch Is Abuse
Sandy: At one point I was reading a book about abuse and I was like, I feel like he abused me. I’m pretty sure he has and it was my investigation, although when my mom asked about what’s going on with you guys. I said he’s been abusing me.
I used those words before, but it was almost like I had to convince myself that this was abuse. Because he wasn’t hitting me. It wasn’t all the things that you normally see or hear about. The moment I remember looking up: Is non consensual pornography abuse. Is rape abuse. It’s okay, yes, of course, these things are. I shouldn’t have to be Googling this.
Sandy: I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery through a friend who is from a different support group.
Anne: When you got here to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, were you like oh, this makes sense. Because a lot of people will Google that stuff, and they won’t find anything. And then when they find us, they’re like, Oh, finally, somebody gets it. Or did you find some other places that you felt understood?
Sandy: I think when I was Googling things, I was really just strictly looking for definitions. Definition of rape, definition of nonconsensual pornography, voyeurism. These are crimes, these are things you go to jail for it seems pretty obvious that’s abuse. For whatever reason, it gave me sort of comfort to have the correct terms, to have the right labels.
Challenges With Therapy
Anne: Yeah, he’s going to a therapist, you go to the therapist, and you’re like Whoa. Therapy’s not gonna work. You’ve also got that going on, where you’re recognizing the abuse, but nobody’s saying, he’s an abuser
Sandy: Yeah. So he moves out, he continued to see his therapist, I continued to see mine. It was interesting because he admits to me at that point that his therapeutic goals were just to be a better husband. Whereas my therapeutic goal was to heal from trauma. We were not going down the same path.
Anne: His therapeutic goal was not to “not be a rapist.” His therapeutic goal was not, I want to stop raping my wife and I want to stop being abusive. That is not his therapeutic goal. His goal is just to be a better husband. So you’re recognizing, wait a minute, there’s some serious stuff wrong here.
Sandy: I feel like even after he moved out, I was always trying to relay the seriousness of the situation and he never quite got that. Even when I pointed out, this is abuse and addiction, you need to see somebody who maybe specializes in that. He just said there’s nobody in our area. I’ll just get some books and I’ll read up on it.
Anne: Did you ever confront him and say you’re abusive at that time?
Sandy: I didn’t. Essentially after a year of trying to convince him that he needs to work through these big Issues. That he needs to essentially be able to protect me from himself is what needs to happen, which he never understood.
When Men Abuse Their Wives: The Consequences Women Face
Sandy: That’s when I said, I can’t do this anymore. It felt like every time I turned around, he was doing the bare minimum. He’d be look, I’m in therapy. I’m doing good. How many other guys would go to therapy? I couldn’t do it anymore. It felt like playing this game, I was done. I can’t describe it any other way.
Anne: That makes sense. What happened at that point?
Sandy: It took me a while to file because I think I wanted to make sure for whatever reason. I could tell he was getting desperate and didn’t know what do. He found a therapist at that point who wanted to talk to me, they’re very much we usually work together and I said my therapist says no.
They don’t view him as an abuser. Even if they did, because abusers lie. When abusers go to therapy, they end up weaponizing the therapy that they learn against their victims.
When Men Abuse Their Wives, They Are Also Psychologically & Emotionally Abusive
Sandy: One of the comments I should share. This an example of how serious, or not serious. I guess when they first enter in, they tell them, no stimulation for 90 days because you need to completely reset your system. And he comes to me saying, Can you believe I have to go three months without it and it’s swimsuit season? I was like, Oh my gosh.
Anne: But the other thing we need to talk about is that you went to a so called expert and they didn’t tell you this is an abuse situation.
Sandy: No, I never really saw her. I met with her once for 10 minutes.
Anne: They’re looking at him as a addict, not as an abuser.
Sandy: No, they don’t. They don’t look at it as abuse.
Anne: So that is super dangerous for victims as well because what this really is emotional and psychological abuse. So he’s going to the addiction recovery person.
Sandy: He seemed like he was committed to it, I guess is the best word. But I thought if he wants to get healthy on his own, that’s great, but I can’t stay in this relationship. I just knew it.
Mediation To Heal From Marital Abuse
Sandy: We decided to do mediation instead of hire lawyers for our divorce, which worked well. Thankfully, he was cooperative about it. At some point, I think I just realized that I could never trust him again. Whether he was doing the recovery or not, I just wasn’t going to be able to do that. Essentially I just had to let him go because, you can’t have an intimate partner relationship with somebody that you can’t trust.
Fast forward, and, I find out he has a girlfriend. I’m like, of course he does, because I don’t think he’s in recovery anymore. He must have given up on it a while back, Of course, we’re not married anymore. It’s none of my business at this point what he does, except that, we have three kids together and I want to make sure they’re safe. I don’t want to raise them thinking that the way he treats women is all right. That, that’s my main concern at this point.
Anne: I think it’s validating to see that their behaviors haven’t changed. The fake recovery, we’ll call it, was a grooming phase where they thought, oh, I can show that I’m a good person or I can “prove” I’m a good person. Current boundaries are awesome now that you’re divorced and you recognize that he’s still abusive and he still exhibits abusive behaviors. What have you found that is helpful for your ongoing healing?
Sandy: I’ve done a number of things.
Processing Trauma Through Art
Sandy: One of them is creating sculptures that depict women either struggling or holding some emotion. Basically what I did is because I’m a ceramic artist, sculptor, I just ended up pouring my emotion into these clay women. It was almost like I couldn’t handle it myself and so I decided to make it out of clay and so women attached to vessels. That I throw and then they are engaging somehow, either climbing on them or pulling them together or looking inside them.
Anne: To process your trauma through art. Due to confidentiality reasons, we’re not going to show you her art, but it is incredible. What an amazing way to process. I gardened a lot. Some women exercise a lot. There’s so many different ways to process the and I would encourage listeners to go to our website, btr.org, find this episode and write down some of the different ways that you processed it.
Maybe you started painting your house or remodeling your house or some different way. Because talking about it is super helpful. We’d love to hear how you’ve been processing the trauma on our website.
Even When A Husband Abuses His Wife, Life Can Seem Pretty Normal
Anne: If you could go back and share anything with yourself. Before you got married, like any bits of wisdom that may help you in beginning this journey with an abusive man, what would you say to yourself?
Sandy: Looking back, there were many times when I would go to him and I would think that he was hearing me or listening to me, and he just was always like, Okay, that’s fine. I’ll do better. He so avoided confrontation.
If nobody sticks up for what they believe in , it doesn’t mean a fight or a disagreement. It doesn’t have to be like anything abusive. It’s just a disagreement. Everybody has them. It will show a lot of the health of the relationship if you can have those talks without abuse, in a respectful way.
Anne: For those of us who are in a lot of fights, like me, I would say disagreements make sense. not in the way that we were disagreeing because it was just abuse. You’re talking about a man who you thought agreed with you but was really always just grooming you. I am so sorry about your experience and so glad that you’re more safe now.
Shared Custody & Communication
Anne: Do you limit contact a lot even though you share custody?
Sandy: Really, if it doesn’t have to do with the kids, I pretty much just don’t talk to him. There’s just no reason to at this point.
Anne: It’s insane to me that the state of the civil courts is that if you share children with an abuser, the court forces you to have contact with the man who raped you. Because of the insane state of things with the family court system. That’s why I wrote the Betrayal Living Free Workshop, to teach women how to deal with abusers strategically. Using the strategies, in those workshops, I was able to completely deliver myself and my children from my abuser.
Conclusion: Can A Husband Abuse His Wife? Yes
Anne: Sandy you are so brave and I admire your courage. Thank you so much for sharing your story today. I think it’s so important to share these stories because so many women go through them. I’ve had quite a few women tell me that they’ve had their husbands take pictures of them without their consent and post it for porn. I think pornography users would be surprised to know that some of the pornography that they’re viewing is of a wife who has no idea.
Sandy: Yeah, it’s very possible
Anne: Thank you so much for sharing today.
Sandy: Thank you.
Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave? 6 Things You Can Do Right Now
Sep 03, 2024
If your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone—even after the divorce—you’re not imagining it.
Whether he’s using the kids to keep contact, pretending he “doesn’t understand email,” or insisting you “just talk like adults,” the truth is this: it’s not communication—it’s control.
Here are 6 powerful strategies women are using to break free from a narcissistic ex-husband who won’t back off. These are real, battle-tested tools used by women like Lee, a mother of three who shared her story on The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. You can read the transcription of her interview below.
1. Believe Yourself
If he says, “You’re being dramatic”, that’s a lie.
The anxiety you feel before checking your phone—that’s real.
If something feels off, that’s because it is.
The first step to escaping a narcissistic ex’s manipulation is recognizing what’s happening. It’s harassment, not communication.
2. Get Everything in Writing
If he says he “doesn’t know how to use email”—he’s lying. He just doesn’t want proof of what he said.
So, no more phone calls. No more casual conversations. Everything goes through written communication—ideally, a parenting app, like the message strategies taught in The Living Free Workshop.
3. Use the Broken Record Strategy
Pick one clear sentence. Repeat it. Over and over and over.
For example:
“That won’t work for me.” “I’m sorry, I can’t do that right now.”
Don’t explain, justify, or negotiate.
Let him exhaust himself trying to manipulate you.
4. Don’t Fall for the “I’m Not Good With …” Act
For example, if your ex-husband can Venmo his buddies, post on Facebook, or use GPS to track your location—he can send a basic email to your child’s teacher.
The whole “I’m just not tech-savvy” excuse? It’s an exploitation tactic.
5. Learn Strategic Boundaries
You don’t need to “communicate better.” You need a strategy to protect your sanity.
Inside The Living Free Workshop, we walk through real-life scripts, tech setups, and boundary language you can start using right now—even if you’re still married.
You can create emotional and logistical distance without waiting for permission.
6. Focus on You
Once Lee created distance from her ex, she didn’t just survive—she started to thrive one small step at a time.
You deserve more than survival. You deserve to rebuild your life on your terms.
Start small. One clean spoon. One quiet night. One bold choice at a time.
If you’re exhausted and terrified because your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone, you’ll relate to Lee’s story.
Transcript: When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone
Anne: A member of the BTR community, we’re going to call her Lee, is on today’s episode. She’s going to be sharing her story. And then also how she implemented the strategies in the Living Free Workshop.
Welcome Lee.
Lee: Hi, thanks for having me.
Anne: Many women in this situation go through years and years of emotional abuse and psychological abuse and they don’t even realize it. So let’s talk about your experience. You married really young. In the beginning did you realize it was abuse?
Lee: No, I did not. Not until pretty much in my mid 30’s. I got married at 19 and we were really young. so I thought it was just a maturity thing and that eventually we’d get past that. There was also addiction and again I thought that was a just a thing. That we would be able to at some point get over once we grew up.
I Thought Divorce Would Remove Me From My Ex-Husband’s Chaos
Anne: What were some of the things that he was choosing?
Lee: He really struggled throughout our entire marriage with exploitative material. Unfortunately, it just became a bigger and bigger problem. It was always in our home. I think I just became immune to that part of it. So I thought, Oh, as soon as we grew up, he’ll stop drinking and looking at it.
Anne: A lot of victims have that feeling. Like okay, once he can get this thing under control, then he’s not going to act like this anymore. That’s hard to recognize that they are experiencing betrayal trauma from infidelity. That all of these behaviors are abusive. They’re not going to get better. What do you think was the biggest contributing factor to not recognize it was abuse throughout those years?
I Didn’t Recognize How Comparing Myself To Other Women Kept Me From Seeing The Truth
Lee: Comparison, and I feel like so many women do this, and this is something that I am so glad we get to talk about today, because I’ve been thinking a lot about it as I hear different stories from friends and family members.
Just the idea that someone else’s situation is worse than yours. Or your life isn’t that bad because you have a nicer home, or my life isn’t that bad because he doesn’t say this to me. Or he comes home at a decent hour. Hearing other people’s stories and finding one thing that might have been better in my life than someone else’s. It made me assume that it was still okay to stay in that relationship.
Anne: That makes sense to me. What were the things that you thought were better?
When My Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone It’s Because He Wants My Pity
Anne: What are the things you are proud of?
Lee: It’s crazy because you don’t see the things that are in your relationship at that time. He might have done the dishes one night. And I took that one night and pulled it along for everything else. He never cussed me out or called me a name. Even though he was really unsupportive, he was very generous with his time.
Anne: So, at times you’re thinking, well, he doesn’t scream at our kids, so he must be a good guy. Or he didn’t scream that one time, or the other night he was great, so I’m lucky. A lot of women don’t realize he’s abusive because they think, I’m so lucky. He’s such a great guy, that’s really common.
Lee: I also don’t think women realize how much effort and work they put in to make their spouse a good guy. And what I mean by that is. A lot of the things I was proud of were what I was doing, not him. I would make sure we were at family gatherings. And also made sure our kids looked good.
I made sure we were going to church on time. And you know, all those things that were important to me. Things that I felt were essential to building a good family, I did. Instead of looking at how much work I was putting in I included him in that. I made it like it was his, like these were his accomplishments.
I think that that’s where my mind got a little bit skewed. Like we had a good family and I looked at it like that. But I didn’t realize that so much of it was my own work and wasn’t really his work.
I Felt Shame & Pressure To Communicate With Him
Anne: Yeah. A lot of women do that. They attribute characteristics to him that actually she has. That comparison is interesting because there’s always going to be someone who seems like they have it worse. So you think well all marriages must have problems. But the problems we have seem “manageable” or something like that. So here you are thinking these are just maturity things or that you’re so lucky in some ways.
Were there any other factors that kept you from seeing the abuse?
Lee: Shame. I married really young and a lot of people questioned that. Also I had family and friends both tell me I was too young. I felt the pressure to stay and keep it together. I think that’s why I kept it together and stayed a lot longer. And I didn’t want to admit to anybody that I failed.
Anne: You weren’t failing. You had a spouse that was failing, but it feels like that when you’re being emotionally abused. Because you think everything is your fault, right? Or that you’re responsible for everything . So that’s common as well.
My Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone, I Need Support
Lee: I had just a few friends that I would communicate with about it. The problem with those friends, even though they were a good outlet for a release. They didn’t really understand my situation because they didn’t have a spouse like that.
I mean, they knew it was bad, they felt sorry for me. I could feel that they understood it. They gave me the space to be able to talk to them, which I appreciate. But they just weren’t in the same situation. And a lot of times, the friends that I did communicate with had pretty decent marriages. It made me feel again, like I needed to be more like them. I needed to maybe not complain as much, you know?
Anne: Okay, so how do you recognize that it is abuse
Lee: I ended up in a Facebook group with one of the members of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and she was very open about it, which I’m so grateful for. And I’m so grateful for women who are open about it. The group that we were in had actually nothing to do with this topic. She was just open and shared a lot of her personal life.
Again, I’m so grateful for that. And the BTR community, opened up a whole new world for me. I started to understand that everybody’s looks different. Even still then at the very beginning. I don’t think I was ready to let go of the idea of keeping my marriage together.
My Turning Point: When He Texted Me Emotionally Abusive Videos
Lee: Then it started to get really bad, my husband sent me some really abusive videos. Videos of him talking to me in a very violent and perverse way.
I didn’t know what to do. I finally sent them to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Within 10 minutes I had a whole group of women together supporting me and helping me through this.
Anne: With the support of the women in the BTR Group. Is this the moment you realized that woah, this is really serious?
Lee: I really believe that was the moment. It became very clear to me. I always felt like maybe I was being dramatic. So when someone actually got to witness it and said to me, this is not okay. Then they said, this is abusive. I realized that it was time, probably, to make a big change. I decide to start opening up and start talking a little bit more and sharing more of my experiences I wanted the BTR community to understand the magnitude.
My Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone, It Creates So Much Chaos
Lee: It seems so big at the time and so scary. I worried about his reaction, my finances, and my kids. Also about this home we just rented together what would we do. We just got a new dog and there were so many things that I was worried about. I was scared. Each step in divorcing a narcissist was a step that I didn’t think I was capable of doing. And they told me I could. And so I kept taking that step.
Anne: What about your real life friends and family? What did they think?
Lee: I had left him seven different times before this time. He just kept pulling me back because he wouldn’t leave me alone. I think family and the friends that I opened up to were hesitant to believe it this time too. They were excited, all of them were going to continually support me.
Anne: Let’s talk about the first few months after you left. How did you get through that time?
Lee: So that was a really, really hard time for me. I would make fun of the the situation, by saying I lived in a house of depression. After work I would come home and lay on the couch. I watched the same movies over and over and over again every night. Lord of the Rings and Forrest Gump. I was just really sad and fearful and I didn’t know if I could really do it financially. It didn’t feel real to me because I had tried so many times
When My Narcissist Ex Won’t Stop Contacting Me Little Miracles Can Give You Hope
Lee: While I was living in that house of depression, I didn’t really feel like I had a lot to live for. Then I bit into a delicious peach. I started looking for tender mercies. That’s what held me up along with the women from the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Constantly looking for those tender mercies and finding those simple things. A lot of times it feels so dark. And we feel like we need something of a greater magnitude to take us out of that darkness.
Instead of looking for those little things, that speck of light almost. And I do want to share one significant tender mercy. It’s a night I came home exhausted. I just wanted a bowl of cereal and a clean spoon. Like I said before, I hadn’t really been keeping up with my housework. There’s probably a lot of dishes and I just wanted there to be that one clean spoon.
When I opened up the drawer, there was one last clean spoon. I just remember thinking, thank you. Because that’s all I needed was a bowl of cereal and a clean spoon. I feel like it’s so important for women to hang on to those little moments every single day. To try to find something in their life that is small but so significant.
The Right Strategy To Live Free From My Narcissistic Ex
Anne: Oh, I love that story in the Living Free Workshop. We have an exercise about this. We call it the best possible tasks And best possible moments.
Here you’re calling it a tender mercy. So that’s awesome because those little things. can really give us a feeling of peace.
There’s another part of Living Free, where we’re focusing on our dreams, and what we want. Was there anything that you decided, Hey. I have a goal and I’m going to accomplish it.
Focusing On Personal Goals Brings Peace When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone
Lee: I’ve had so many, but the one biggest one, this is crazy, I painted my piano pink.
In my relationship, I was always told that I couldn’t do anything, I would always want to do these projects. And he was a carpenter and he would always tell me that they were too hard. If I explained to him what I was going to do, he would tell me it wouldn’t turn out right.
He was always saying that it would look like garbage. So I was scared to do anything. I started painting this piano, I thought it was going to look like garbage. Because that’s what I had been told that anything I did was going to look like. And it is so beautiful.
I love that piano and it turned out so good and I moved into a permanent home this year, too. I want to remodel and do a little interior decorating that I’ve never gotten to do either, really. To really learn how to play that piano that I just finished painting and then set better boundaries for myself. I’m trying to work on boundaries. Then just strengthen my faith in my home and in myself, continue on with that.
What I Told My Friends Who Were Going Through The Same Thing
Anne: Do you have any advice for women who might have the same fears that you did?
Lee: Yeah, you need to find support. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is a great group for that. And I know I’m on this podcast. I want everyone to know I’m not pitching this because I’m on here. It changed my life, being a part of that group. I do not think I would be able to get out of my situation without their support. And that support hasn’t ended. That support continues on and it just keeps growing.
I haven’t ended those relationships, I’ve only grown and extended those relationships. As my situation changes, I just meet new people and new women and new friendships. That I’ve created in that group. The other thing is what we talked about in the beginning, and that’s don’t compare your situation to someone else’s.
I Found Out Some People Weren’t On My Team
Lee: That is so important and something that I wish all women would stop doing. I don’t think women recognize when it really, truly is doing them so much harm. Women should not look at someone else and say their situation’s worse, and mine isn’t.
I would encourage women to look more at, is the behavior acceptable? Are they happy? Is what their husband is doing in line with their beliefs and standards? And if they’re not, that’s the problem. It doesn’t need to be someone else’s standards or beliefs. It’s what they’re comfortable with. I wish a lot more women would look at that.
Anne: Meaning I’m not okay with exploitative material in my home, or I’m not okay with yelling, this is not acceptable for me in my home, and I don’t feel safe.
Lee: You also might find someone that says that it’s okay. I had a lot of friends tell me that, like, why was I upset? Or, I had people tell me that it’s okay that he’s drinking, we’re having a good time, those kind of things.
Again, that put a lot of shame and guilt on me. Because I thought I was taking the fun out of our lives. Or, I thought there was something wrong with me that I thought that it was wrong, and maybe it was okay. Maybe it was beneficial to our relationship.
How Personal Standards Can Protect You When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Stop Creating Chaos
Anne: Having the confidence , to think other people might feel differently, but this is my home. This is my life. I deserve to feel safe. I want to be able to live a life that is consistent with my own values.
Lee: Yes, absolutely. I really wish I would have looked at those and told myself I wasn’t willing to accept that or put up with it. Now I’m going to be 35 and I know that there are so many things that I’m just not willing to put up with. Even though someone might tell me that they’re not significant enough or they’re not really a problem, I will go by my own standards.
That’s something that I’ve learned and would like to tell my younger self. Hey, don’t go by the world’s standards, I would go by my standards.
Anne: Even some women don’t go by, maybe, your church’s standards. What I mean by that is, people who might say, well, you just need to love and serve and then everything will be okay. Don’t judge or something. Those types of things that an external church or a therapist or somebody might put on you. To be like, no, tolerate this for some reason, or be patient with it for some reason. I deserve to feel safe in my own home.
This Analogy Helped Me More Than Anything
Lee: What you’re comfortable with, right? It’s what you’re comfortable with. Would you be comfortable with a rock in your shoe? And would you continue to walk with a rock in your shoe? Or would you remove that shoe and take out that rock? Even if someone said, you could walk a little bit longer, it’s okay. No, you’re uncomfortable with that rock in that shoe. You would take the time to sit down, and take off that shoe and take out that rock.
Anne: If someone said but don’t you feel bad for the rock? What’s the rock gonna do? How is that rock gonna get around without you? You can be like, the rock can do whatever it wants. It’s not going to be in my shoe. It’s an adult rock. It can handle it. Me taking it out has nothing to do with the rock. Whatever helps women to be like, I can do this, is what works. It’s different for everyone.
The Best Support I Could Find Got Me Through The Hardest Parts
Lee: I just want to say, because I know they’re gonna listen to this, to all my Betrayal Trauma Recovery women. That helped me through this, and the ones that I’m gonna meet in the future. I am so grateful for each and every single one of you. I really don’t think I could be where I am. And I don’t think I could be going where I’m going without their continual support. So I’m so grateful.
Anne: Have you found that being away from him has enabled you to grow stronger?
Lee: Absolutely. It has made me recognize it more, too. I actually have been dealing a lot with anger lately, as well. There’s those five or seven, grief cycles. I am in the cycle of anger. The anger for me is a protection. It’s like a shield. The problem with showing anger to an abuser is, it gets them the same amount of attention they’re seeking.
Anne: They’re not looking for peace. When peace becomes your absolute top priority.
Using The Most Effective Strategies To Get Your Narcissist Ex To Leave You Alone
Anne: Many women start using the strategies and the BTR Living Free Workshop. So you were really interested in implementing strategies to get some peace in your life. First of all, let’s talk about what your concerns were.
Lee: A lot of the women in the group I know experienced some alterations of reality. Because of the situations that their husbands have put them in. They like to twist your thoughts. I lived in that false reality. Anytime I had concerns where I knew something was real. He would alter my reality, confuse me and just convince me.
That what I was thinking was completely illogical or not accurate. As I went through my divorce he continued to do this, to manipulate things. He continued to tell me that I said what I never said. Or things that I did say he would say I never said.
That was really difficult to live like that. Always questioning my own reality and not knowing if what I was thinking was actually real. It was very confusing.
Documenting His Ongoing Behavior When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Stop His Abuse
Lee: So, why I wanted to go into this is because I needed documentation of what I was saying and what he was saying. So I could trust myself almost more. And trust that what I knew to be true was truth and I had that evidence in writing.
Anne: So you have this evidence that he’s gaslighting you, emotionally and psychologically abusing you. You have this evidence that he’s trying to alter your reality. You’re thinking, I can’t communicate with him in any way, shape or form without him lying to me. Without him twisting the truth, without things going sideways.
Lee: Yeah, without crazy making because that’s what it was.
Anne: What were your concerns ? You’re thinking oh that would be amazing if I could stop interacting with him, but I’m scared it won’t work. Because what were the things at the beginning before you decided? Hey, I’m gonna try this out that held you back from even considering it at first.
Lee: When I tried to implement a little bit of this in the past, he said he was computer illiterate. Or he didn’t really know how to use technology.
The second was that he would use it to not communicate certain things about the children. While they were with him. Again, it would fall back onto, oh I was computer illiterate. So I forgot to tell you that I was going to drop them off later. Whether maybe not telling me that the kids were uncomfortable and wanted to come home. He would use it as an excuse to say oh, sorry couldn’t communicate with you.
I think that was my biggest fear was with the children. That if there was an emergency, how would we contact each other?
Overcoming Fears Helps Leave Behind The Chaos When Your Narcissistic Ex Won’t Stop
Anne: You were like, I really want to do this, but it just seems impossible. And I remember talking to you on the phone. And I said, the first step is believing that it’s possible. To know that you can. And then you just have to figure out the how. How did that change in mindset from, I don’t know, I can’t do this. How did that change of mindset help you to start actually looking for solutions?
Lee: How that helped me is I took away the impossibility of it and thought I need to do this. It wasn’t even that I can or can’t do it. I needed to do it. For my own sanity. I had to start implementing this. Otherwise, I just knew that this was going to be a constant cycle and a constant battle. I was going to constantly be questioning my own reality and I would just stay stuck in that cycle of his manipulation and abuse. So it just came to the point where there was no option. There was no choice. I had to do it.
Anne: So when you decide, now I know I’m doing this. Now I’m in the problem solving, how do I do it phase? What were the first things that you needed to consider before implementing it?
Lee: One of the first things that I needed to consider was. In case of an emergency, if something happened while the kids were in his care or my care. How would we communicate to each other? And I thought of a plan immediately. It wasn’t even that hard.
What Happens If I Don’t Really Want My Narcissistic Ex To Leave Me Alone?
Lee: All of a sudden it was fixed. I think that was my biggest hurdle. If I were to be honest with myself I think it was losing that connection with him. Even though I was going through this divorce process. Even though I was so badly hurt for so many years by him. There was still a connection that I had to him, losing that was somewhat painful for me.
I sold a car and even that had a connection to him that was painful for me to let go of in a weird way. The reality sank in. That can go two ways when that reality sets in. No hope of it getting better. That can lead to wanting to run back to that bad situation. That could lead to growth.
Actions To Take To Distance Yourself From Your Narcissist Ex
Lee: There was a pivotal moment where I knew I needed to do your Living Free Workshop. One catastrophic day my son had actually had a confrontation with him and I went to pick him up. We had an altercation outside of his family’s house. He did end up getting a little bit physical. Later on that evening, he took my daughters. And told them he was dropping them off in the middle of nowhere.
When I came to pick up my son, my narcissist ex wouldnt’t leave, I talked to him and I rolled down my window just a little bit. He was able to reach in the car and take my phone. During our marriage he was really obsessed with my phone too. He would wake me up in the middle of the night to go through my phone and keep me up all hours. He was really obsessive about it. And so it didn’t surprise me that he went for my phone again.
When I got out of the car to grab it from him, he started smacking me. Telling me to get away. Eventually, I gave up and thought, you know what, this isn’t worth it. I’m gonna walk away, and he threw the phone after that. It was after that day that I thought, you know what? I cannot live in this anymore.
Can I Get a Restraining Order Against a Narcissistic Ex Who Won’t Leave Me Alone?
Lee: So, that’s when I implemented what you had encouraged me to do. But I don’t know if you remember during that conversation. The other thing that you encouraged me to do, which was to get a restraining order. Finally I get that implemented and these two things came together.
Anne: Let’s talk about some common concerns I bring up in the workshop. Were you concerned that he wouldn’t participate?
I had a smile on my face when you said this, because they can’t not participate. If you block them on your phone, there’s nothing they can do about it. They can’t call you. They could call you from another number. But if you have a boundary for yourself that you never answer the phone, if it’s an unknown caller. You just wait for them to leave a message. If you block them on your email and delete your social media accounts. There’s nothing they can do about that.
Lee: How the protective order works here in Arizona is once they grant you that protective order. They send it to the sheriff’s department. It just automatically goes out. So it takes away you having to sit there debating should I, or shouldn’t I. Once it’s done, it’s done.
During that time, I was able to notify him that we would no longer be communicating verbally. Everything would go through email and he did put up a fight. This was through texts and he did put up a fight and say, that’s not going to work. I don’t do good with electronics. Now we’ve been doing this since June. He can email just fine. He is not computer illiterate and is perfectly capable.
My Narcissistic Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone — It’s Pushing Me to the Edge
Lee: Again, it goes back to him altering my reality or confusing me or making me believe something that’s not true. He had convinced me that he doesn’t understand, he’s not good with electronics. And that was part of my hesitation, was him convincing me he couldn’t do this. So there was no way. Like, how was I going to be able to communicate with him? When he didn’t know how to really write an email, which is what he told me.
And it ended up being not true. So, again, it goes back to that crazy making, and me questioning myself. And is this possible, based off of his lies. So he can’t call me and can’t text me. And isn’t supposed to be within a certain feet of me. He can only email me.
If he needs to contact the kids, they have their own separate phones, so he is able to communicate with them. But if he has any specific questions for me, or we’re making plans, it all has to go through email.
I Hate That He Won’t Leave Me Alone, But I Still Miss Him, What’s Wrong With Me?
Anne: And how have those been? Have they been gaslighting?
Lee: This is something interesting. Most people think if you go through email, it takes away all the manipulative communication. But it actually doesn’t. You have to still be very aware and very careful.
Lee: In the beginning, they were very emotionally filled. Both of us trying to express our hurt and our pain.
Anne: I don’t think he was really trying to express his hurt and his pain. As much as he was manipulating your emotions.
Lee: Oh, of course, yes. And in me, I was trying to express hurt and pain and it just didn’t work. Now I try to answer everything with what you taught. They’ve been incredibly helpful, especially when dealing with my narcissistic ex who refuses to leave me alone.
That’s it. No more than that. I have been doing that for a while now. There’ve been two times recently where I have gone out of my way to email him. And to address things that are not appropriate to address anymore. After that, I knew I made a mistake and then I got back on course.
I do not need to go into these pages of explanations or reasonings or even comforting him. I just need to respond very simply. Another thing you taught that I love is the broken record.
The Broken Record Technique: A Strategy For When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone
Lee: One of the things is right now he’s on supervised visitation and he keeps asking me to pick up the kids. I have one line that I say to that, I’m sorry, you can’t do that right now. Then he’ll say something like, well, it would just be easier and nobody else has time to pick them up today. And when my narcissist ex won’t leave, I just say, I’m sorry, but you can’t do that right now. He might come back with something else. I just keep repeating it until finally he’s exhausted and doesn’t even ask.
And it’s just that you pick a line, you stick with that line. And every single time they come at you, you use the same line over and over again. Until finally they run out of questions. They run out of things to say, and they’re exhausted.
Anne: Yeah. The Living Free Workshop clearly explains why and how to use them with real life examples from real messages. From women like you who have applied it. Anything you see now that “shows” he can communicate as a good person is grooming and manipulation. This and a lot of other strategies can apply when your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone.
Lee: There still is a big part of me that hopes that he is a good person. But like what you’re saying, there is trickery to it. Yeah, I always tell people. I can’t really give him anything because he is a give an inch take a mile kind of a guy.
Is It Okay to Block My Narcissistic Ex if He Won’t Leave Me Alone?
Anne: How has it felt to be free of his phone calls?
Lee: So good, I don’t have that pit in my stomach anymore when I see his name. My phone isn’t something to fear anymore. I’m not sitting there wondering if he’s sent me a text message on my phone. Now I can go to my phone and it’s not a place of worry. The other thing is so much comfort in knowing the things that I say and the things that he says. Also being able to go back and know that my reality and what I know is true.
I have that evidence now, and that is such a gift for me because I really do struggle with that still. Even outside of our marriage, I really do struggle with confidence in myself and trusting myself still. Because of 15 years of somebody questioning my truth or making me question my truth.
Lee: Now. Again, it’s that rebuild. I’m rebuilding that trust in myself and knowing that what I’m saying is truth because I have proof.
When He Won’t Stop Messaging Me Is There Some Type of Template I Can Use To Get Him To Stop?
Anne: So, if you’re interested in using the strategies in the Living Free Workshop to eliminate that fear and worry from having to communicate. And have the proof that Lee is talking about. These concepts will work for women in any situation, even if you’re still married.
We describe it when a protective order is in place, but you don’t need a protective order to implement them. You don’t have to be separated. Maybe you’re co-parenting, you can just know the concepts. and then use them in whatever way works for you. Having strategy makes a big difference in how long it takes to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse.
When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone, Enroll In The Living Free Workshop
Anne: If your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone, The Living Free Workshop uses an amazing workbook. If you want to you can dig really deep level and process things. Some women don’t even use the workbook the first time through, or they never use it. They just run through all the videos super fast and they don’t even answer the questions below the videos.
There’s no right or wrong way to do it.
What Is Emotional Adultery? Start With This One Question
Aug 27, 2024
If you’re Googling what is emotional adultery, you’re probably trying to make sense of something that feels wrong in your marriage—but isn’t obvious enough for anyone around you to take seriously.
Maybe you’ve found videos on his phone. Or he’s glued to inappropriate media late at night. Maybe he swears it’s “not cheating” because “he’s not with a real person.”
But in this podcast episode, Anne Blythe, M.Ed., founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and her mom break it down with startling clarity:
If he is using inappropriate media and stimulating himself to it, he is having virtual sex. And virtual sex is adultery.
Not metaphorical adultery. Not “almost cheating.” Actual adultery.
And once you understand why, emotional adultery becomes much easier to recognize.
Emotional Adultery Starts With THIS
Here’s the simplest test:
When he wants comfort, excitement, escape, or connection… who (or what) is he turning toward?
If he’s giving his emotional energy, sexual focus, and bonding hormones to a virtual world (or to women on a screen) rather than you, then emotional adultery is already happening.
It’s a real betrayal because it breaks the emotional, sexual, and spiritual exclusivity of the marriage.
Why Using Inappropriate Media Is Emotional Adultery
1. It’s not “just looking”, it’s a sexual act
As Anne’s mom says, men used to call this “phone sex.” The only difference today is the delivery method. If he is viewing inappropriate media and stimulating himself, he is performing a sexual act—just not with you.
2. He is forming a sexual experience with real people
It’s not “a computer.” It’s a real woman on video (or it’s based on one). He’s using people as a product for his own gratification.
3. The body responds the same way it does in physical sex
The same hormones and neurological bonding.
Your marriage isn’t exempt just because the other person can’t see him.
4. Christ taught that lust itself is adultery
“If a man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery in his heart.”
That was long before smartphones existed. The principle still stands.
5. Most people minimize it because the truth feels awkward.
No one likes picturing their husband sitting in front of a phone or computer, doing what he’s doing. So society softens the language. They treat it like a hobby. But minimizing something doesn’t make it less harmful.
6. Many of the women in these videos are exploited or coerced (or it’s AI based on real women)
Emotional adultery isn’t “victimless.”
7. And finally: he is having sex with himself instead of you
Part of the betrayal is that he’s bonding with himself while using another woman as the stimulus. This is not intimacy, it’s isolation to have sex alone.
So What Is Emotional Adultery, Really?
Emotional adultery is when a husband gives his emotional and sexual intimacy to something outside the marriage.
It can look like:
Virtual sex
Obsessive use of inappropriate media
Escaping into digital fantasy while avoiding real-life connection
Arguing that it’s “not cheating”
Hiding devices or deleting history
Becoming emotionally unavailable, irritable, or defensive
Prioritizing screens over the marriage
It’s the slow, steady siphoning of intimacy away from you and into a world where he holds all the control.
If you’ve been trying to convince yourself it’s not adultery because “he wasn’t with a real person,” this episode gives you permission to trust what your body already knows:
It is adultery. It is betrayal. And it is abuse.
The Hidden Signs of Emotional Adultery
If you’re still unsure, here are some common signs women notice:
1. He’s emotionally distant or irritable without explanation.
2. He defends inappropriate media as “normal.”
3. He hides his screen, his phone, or his late-night habits.
4. His libido seems unpredictable—either detached or suddenly demanding.
5. He gets defensive when you ask basic questions.
6. He insists “every guy does it” to shut you down.
7. Your gut is screaming that something is wrong.
Women almost always sense emotional adultery before they can prove it.
You Deserve Safety, Clarity, and Support
If your husband is engaging in virtual sex or any pattern that fits emotional adultery, you deserve support from women who actually understand what this means, not people who minimize it or blame you.
Our daily support group is designed FOR YOU. We never shame you for refusing to accept emotional adultery as “normal.
Transcript: What Is Emotional AduLTery?
Anne: My mom is joining me today because lately she’s been on a soap box, an awesome soap box. That we should talk more about how exploitative media isn’t just viewing videos. Or pictures, but it’s actually virtual intercourse because it involves masturbation.
It involves the bonding chemicals that you release during intercourse. I have a section of this in my book that will be coming out soon, about how masturbation is always part of the equation.
It’s Emotional Adultery Because Of What He’s Actually Doing
Anne: Can you explain why you think that instead of calling it what we normally do, we should just say virtual sex?
Mom: Well, the reason I thought it’s important is because a lot of the world doesn’t think it involves anything else other than just looking.
But when they look at those pictures, there are real women who had their picture taken. They’re somebody’s mom, they’re somebody’s daughter, somebody’s sister. They are real women. The other thought I had is that, usually in connection with the it, men masturbate. Just like Anne said at the opening, that involves the same chemicals. The same hormonal response that a man would have with a live woman.
https://youtu.be/kvJckL1Vh4k
So, I just felt instead of everybody saying, well, avoid exploitative media, blah, blah, blah. You need to call it virtual sex. Because that’s what it is. Back when I was younger, many men used phone sex. That’s what they called it, phone sex. They would call on the phone, it was a real woman, and she was responding in real time. Of course, he would be masturbating at the same time. So that was where I came from.
Why This IS Adultery
Mom: And then also the quote in Matthew, I think it’s in chapter 5, and I believe it’s verse 28, where it says, If a man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery in his heart.
Anne: Many people don’t think that just it’s adultery. But if you combine it with masturbation to create a sexual experience. That someone’s having or performing with another person or thing. In this case, with a virtual scenario, they are actually having sex with a computer.
Mom: Yeah, you wouldn’t say computer. That conjures up all kinds of other issues, but no, I mean …
Anne: It’s not just a picture though. it’s a video.
Mom: A video of a real person, yes. They’re just providing their own physical stimulation.
Virtual Sex Is Adultery
Anne: Like the responses I’ve received from the few people I’ve said it to so far. That virtual sex is adultery. And what includes virtual sex isn’t just a VR, like goggles that you would wear. But actually viewing anything and masturbating is virtual sex. That’s what it is. Why do you think people think it’s not adultery?
Anne: They’re a real person. And the man still has real, actual sex with that person. That he does not know, that has no name, that’s on the film. The other thing is that he actually has real sex with himself.
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Public Perception About What is Adultery
Mom: When people hear that he just uses this stuff all the time, they don’t view it as innocent, just looking at a picture type of thing.
Anne: Or a video.
Mom: Or a video, yeah. But I think, this is my soap box here, it really is virtual sex. And we should call it what it really is, so that there’s no confusion about it.
Anne: When you think of a man sitting in front of a computer or his phone. Just looking at it.
Anne: People do not envision him looking at their phone or computer while masturbating. Because who wants to think about that?
Mom: Yeah.
Anne: No one.
Mom: Yeah, it’s too awkward, it’s too uncomfortable. Many people have trouble even saying the word masturbation.
Anne: Right
Mom: It’s not a comfortable thing.
Anne: No, so it makes sense that when you say it, that’s what people envision. That they’re looking at their phone or computer.
Mom: Many people in the world, me not being one of them, think masturbation is fine. So, that’s the other issue. It’s not just that we don’t see them as maybe not having sex. But they don’t view that as “sex” when it really is. It involves the same hormones, the same body responses.
Anne: They’re having sex with themselves.
Mom: Yes.
Religious Perspectives On Virtual Sex
Anne: We want to know what you think about this. We would welcome your comments. Please go to BTR.ORG and find this podcast episode. Do you think it’s adultery and why?
Mom: When it involves someone in a committed relationship.
Anne: If they’re not in a committed relationship, is it fornication? Yes. In my opinion. If you are a religious person and believe in the commandments and law of chastity, then it would be fornication.
It’s either fornication or adultery, but in neither of those cases, in my opinion, is it okay. Maybe you disagree. We’d love to hear your thoughts on it.
Anne: Or you’re in very bad company. We’re such an evil influence.
Mom: Dangerous.
Anne: I know. We’re laughing because people call my ideas dangerous a lot of the time. So, it’s so dangerous to say that exploitative media is adultery. Woo! When Christ himself said it. In what, Matthew?
Mom: Matthew chapter 5.
Anne: I love my Mom.
What We’ve Learned About Adultery
Anne: I’m super grateful that she came on today, and I love her opinion that we should start saying virtual sex.
If you agree with our stance, that it’s adultery. That it’s virtual sex. And it’s also emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion. If you agree with us, maybe because your husband has virtual sex with women online, and you need support, and you totally get it. You know what we’re talking about.
We’re here for you. There are many so-called betrayal trauma therapists, coaches or groups out there. But they don’t approach using exploitative media or infidelity, virtual sex as an abuse issue. Or they try to “treat” both the abuser and the victim in the same setting, which is unethical. BTR groups sessions are different.
We get it. We never victim blame, and we are here to support you. So if you relate to anything we said in this episode, check out our daily support group schedule. We’d love to see you in a group session today.
Women Say THIS Is The Best Support For Betrayal Trauma
Aug 20, 2024
Have you been searching for the best support for betrayal trauma? Do you feel alone, scared, heartbroken, and sick over the betrayal and the consequences of his emotional abuse?
Victims of betrayal and abuse deserve a safe space to process trauma, openly speak truths, ask hard questions, and receive validation. What is the best betrayal trauma support group? Here are 4 things to look for . . .
1. Is Your Emotional & Psychologial Safety The Top Priority?
The best betrayal trauma support group will make your safety the top priority. No matter if you’ve discovered your husband’s betrayal today or been on your healing journey for decades.
Here are some indications that a betrayal trauma support group isn’t safe:
They don’t identify what the trauma is from
They don’t identify you as a victim of emotional and psychological abuse
You’re encouraged to not make any decisions that would distance yourself from the abuser
Maybe they ask you to ignore what your husband is doing that is harming you
Here are some indications that the betrayal trauma support group IS safe:
No one cares about what’s going to happen to the abuser or how you getting to safety will affect him.
You are validated.
The other women in the group have been through what you’ve been through, and so they understand it on a very personal level.
You’re not made to feel like your deficient or that you did anything wrong.
Before you start attending a support group for betrayal trauma, make sure the professional you’re going to doesn’t offer services for abusive men. True experts on emotional and psychological abuse know that working with abuse victims AND abusers simultaneously is unethical
If any therapist or program lets you know that they offer services for abusive men, you can know that’s not a support group for betrayal trauma that will be safe for you.
3. No One Will Ask You To Look Into What Part You Played
Unlike traditional addiction therapists, we do not use the codependency model. We use the abuse model. This means we’ll never label you “codependent.” Too many therapists and clergy focus their energies on blaming the victim, rather than accurately treating the betrayal as abuse.
If you go to a support group for betrayal trauma, and anyone there even suggests you played some part in your own emotional and psychological abuse, this is not a group that understands abuse.
To avoid a support group that blames the victim, before you go, ask someone who goes to the group what the “trauma” you need a support group for is from. If they don’t say emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, don’t try to convice them. Just move on.
4. They Trust You To Follow Your Own Intuition
If the betrayal trauma support group mentions or implies that you’re too sick or diseased or weak to follow your own intuition, it’s not ethically run.
One of the hallmarks for abuse is undermining a woman’s confidence. If they’re telling to you “trust” them or they know better than you, look elsewhere.
Women make a lot of progress by enrolling in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop that gives women lessons and exercises to get back in touch with theselves, so they can make decisions that are in their best interest.
If you’re looking for the best betrayal trauma support group, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are facilitated by specially trained betrayal trauma specialists who understand this type of abuse. We’d love to see you in a Session TODAY.
Transcript: The Best Support For Betrayal Trauma
On this week’s episode, I asked women their thoughts about the best support for betrayal trauma. betrayal trauma share their experiences with our coaches to see if Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session Clients would want to stay after their group session and share their feelings and experiences with our podcast listeners. Some of them wanted to talk, and others wanted to write their thoughts and have me read them. Additionally I’m also going to read some reviews that we’ve received.
When Therapy for Betrayal Trauma Falls Short
Betrayal Trauma Victim #1: I had been to three therapists who told me it was all my fault and I needed to go do my family of origin work and stop trying to control my husband, but my husband was just continuing to stomp all over everything that was sacred that I was trying to build with him.
He and the therapist and I were sitting there. I felt like there was a severed artery. It’s just spewing all over and nobody’s saying a word, and it felt just like gaslighting to me. I think therapy was very abusive because three different therapists in that codependent model were telling me those things.
It’s infuriating that women are made to feel this way when they’re trying to get help. That’s all we did for the last two to three years we were together was S groups and CSATs it just got worse. Everybody was like, read this book, and I was like, um, I don’t need a book. I need help. I felt this mentality too that like, we’re gonna go to therapy and everything is gonna get fixed, and that’s just kind of ridiculous.
We have to feel safe and we have to feel heard, and we have to feel valued, and I did not feel any of that until I found BTR.
Gift Of Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery
I listened to the BTR podcast for about four years. The betrayal trauma support group combined with the podcast were the two things that saved my life. I’m so filled with gratitude.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #2: after how many years of being in the codependent model therapy groups out there, and I don’t wanna name them, but they’re basically following the alcohols anonymous. Models recommended by my husband’s CSAT
I’ve done years of research and going through different rabbit holes, even suffering trauma from a very invasive local, so-called Betrayal trauma CSAT.
I Googled, betrayal trauma support and discovered BTR. I listened to the BTR podcast and I said, I’ve, I’ve gotta join the group. I’ve gotta join the group. I’ve done all the other groups. It doesn’t hurt to try. Right? I’ve tried. I’ve paid so many memberships and I’ve been to so many meetings, so I know it’s not out there except on BTR. To finally find an online group, and it’s really the only one, where you actually have the most educated well-trained coaches who actually facilitate the group. ’cause I’ve had to stop attending another group because they allowed cursing and the rules were not really well thought out.
Finding The Best Structured Support For Betrayal Trauma
So to have a group that has structure, that has guidance, the safety protocols and the anonymity. Is the best investment that you can make especially for betrayal trauma.
To hear yourself in the stories of others. The coaches have been through trauma themselves. That to me was just such a huge bonus to actually speak to women who’ve been through what you’ve gone through and they’ve survived and they’re thriving, and now they’re helping all of us to have all of that in one package.
It’s not about being ready because in trauma you’re always gonna feel like you’re not ready. So it’s almost like you’ve just got to take that medication that you need right now, even though you don’t feel like taking it. It’s the medication that you need, like as we speak, and it’s the most healing. No one’s here to judge you. No one has you under a microscope. You know everybody’s very much in your shoes. Walking the same journey. You’ll find yourself finally healing. And it is one day at a time, one session at a time, one coach at a time.
If you’ve just discovered your husband’s infidelities, whatever it is that you’ve just discovered. IT’s not too late if you are 10 years after discovery, and even if you’re divorced or separated, or even widowed, but you’re still suffering from the trauma and you still wanna heal. BTR has the best way to explain betrayal trauma and treat it.
You wanna connect heart to heart and mind to mind with other women. Connecting with the BTR coaches, that’s my lifeline too sanity and serenity. At the same time. I’m a mother of eight children, and my children need me. I need them to know that they can conquer this and build beautiful, successful lives. We are worth it.
BTR: Finding Safety, Value & Growth
Betrayal Trauma Victim #3: my whole life, you know, I’ve been told what I’m feeling and what my intentions are. I’ve been searching my whole life to try to figure out what was going on because there’s always that part of me that told me that.
There’s something deeper going on, up until BTR, I didn’t know what the truth was. and this group has changed my life. This is a group that actually helps women recover from betrayal trauma. could finally find a place where I could identify what was going on. I feel a lot more empowered because of this group, I feel because of this group, I’m gonna get my life back. the coaches and all the women being vulnerable and speaking their truths, this group gave me safety and the chance to decide for myself what I want.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #4: When I first discovered BTR on the podcast, I felt. All of a sudden validated, I’d felt not alone.
It took me a while, several months actually, to join the BTR group, honestly, because I was afraid that I would just become an angry, bitter woman who hated men. And I found that to be absolute opposite of what has happened. I have felt completely empowered. I have felt validated. I’ve felt heard.
I’ve felt seen. When I couldn’t see myself. Yeah. It’s the very best thing that’s happened to me.
The Power Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions
Betrayal Trauma Victim #5: I did think I was alone, um, and so isolated for over two decades BTR groups have definitely helped me know that I am not the only one who has experienced, um, emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. Finding the group and hearing so much of my story in other women’s stories has really helped me feel connected and less isolated and I am able to make plans and know exactly what I’m doing to help my life move forward. The groups I’m coaching have really changed me. I am so grateful.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #6: The skills that I’ve learned in BTR and the education that I’ve gotten has transitioned to so many areas of life that I am able to use the restored intuition. I have to see these people who feel entitled to my life, my skills, my story.
To use for themselves, and I’m grateful I have those skills.
Women Who Found The Best Support For Betrayal Trauma
Betrayal Trauma Victim #7: For me, The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop has been so beneficial. Going through that workshop, seeing the visualization, and building upon what I had already learned in groups took me from a place of being stuck to moving me to where I know God is carrying me and gonna take me. Also, just understanding the past 20 years of my life and why, like why I became stuck, and now that I’m out of that cave, I’m never going back because at this point I’m living in the light.
And once you’re in the light. It’s not gonna happen anymore. The workshop it’s taken me to the next level. So thank you.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #8: I did not have knowledge of what was going on in my life and how I was being abused to the extent I was. I am very grateful to BTR. thank you, Anne for your podcast.
BTR coaches have given me courage to continually move forward and strengthen me and guide me. They’ve saved my life. The encouragement has been incredible. I am just beyond blessed, and I couldn’t have done this without the BTR coaches. They have been a godsend.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #9: BTR has been amazing for not just me, but my family, because it’s provided a safe place for myself and then also my mom to process the abuse happening in our respective relationships and get to safety,
so I’m extremely grateful for BTR and all the coaches here
The Impact Of BTR On Family And Friends
Betrayal Trauma Victim #10: Some of the things I’ve heard through 10 years of therapy with my husband . Like, what are you doing? Or , how can you support him more? And even, why are you crying?
This has nothing to do with you. Minimizing I spent a year with one therapist trying to explain, giving her books. Another therapist, he’s like, how can you keep him from getting access. I had no idea
BTR Group Sessions have been amazing for me. To get on every day if I need to, not being blamed for something out of your control that a grown adult person is doing to you. The BTR Podcast makes sense. I’m thankful. Thankful is an understatement. Just god bless.
Thank you so much.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #11: BTR Group Sessions for me have allowed me to feel less alone and be inspired by amazing women.
Coaches Are The Best Support For Betrayal Trauma
Betrayal Trauma Victim #12: For me, BTR Group Sessions have been with me through the entire process, from first figuring out what was going on in my life to navigating post-separation issues and custody issues. I just cannot put enough value on practical advice, emotional support, and community with other women.
6 Things a Cheating Husband Says: What You Need To Know
Aug 13, 2024
If you’ve been betrayed by your husband, you’ve probably replayed every conversation in your head. What he said. What it meant. Here are six things a cheating husband says that may seem innocent—or even remorseful—but are actually manipulative and abusive.
1. Cheating Husband Says, “It’s because you were pregnant.”
At first, this sounds like a confession wrapped in vulnerability. But let’s be clear: blaming betrayal on your pregnancy is a covert form of abuse.
He’s saying, “You made me do this.” He’s shifting responsibility for his betrayal onto your body, your choices, and your vulnerability.
This isn’t guilt—it’s manipulation.
2. “I’ve had this addiction since I was a kid.”
If your cheating husband says this, it might trigger your compassion—and that’s the point.
Yes, trauma is real. But past trauma is not a free pass to traumatize others.
When a man uses his childhood as a shield against accountability, he’s not trying to heal. He’s trying to keep you from leaving.
3. “Let’s” get help.
This one is tricky. At first, it seems like progress. Counseling. Support groups. Healing.
But what if he’s lying in those sessions? What if he’s telling the therapist half-truths—or worse, —or worse, repeating the kind of things a cheating husband says to shift blame onto you?
Many women spend years in therapy trying to “fix” the marriage, when the real issue is that he’s abusive, not confused.
4. “You’re just not supportive enough.”
If your cheating husband says you’re the problem, he’s counting on you to believe him.
Women in these situations often over-function—working double-time to prove they’re loving, patient, faithful. Meanwhile, he’s lying, gaslighting, and keeping secrets.
This isn’t a marriage. It’s a mind game.
5. “I’m sober now.”
He might say he’s changed. That he’s not using anymore. But his actions don’t match. He’s distant. Emotionally cold. You feel invisible in your own home.
But in public? He’s pouring your coffee. Smiling like the perfect husband.
This tactic—acting loving in front of others while rejecting you in private—is covert emotional abuse.
6. “You’re emotionally Abusive.”
This one is the hardest. When you finally draw a boundary or leave, the cheating husband says you’re the toxic one.
He tells your church, your family, your friends: “She’s crazy.” “She ruined the marriage.” “I tried everything.”
This tactic is called DARVO: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. And it’s one of the most psychologically damaging parts of betrayal.
Why It Hurts So Much
When your cheating husband says things like this, the trauma goes deeper than infidelity. It’s not just about sex or secrets. It’s about emotional coercion and psychological manipulation.
And if you feel confused, isolated, or like you’re slowly losing your grip on reality—you’re not crazy. You’re experiencing betrayal trauma.
What You Can Do Next
You deserve safety. Clarity. Truth. Take my free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re experiencing this.
This interview dives deeper into one woman’s story. Pay attention and you’ll hear how her husband used every one of these to make her thing his cheating was her fault.
Transcript: 6 Things Cheating Husband Says
Anne: Kathleen a member of our community is on today’s podcast. She’s going to share her story. Welcome, Kathleen.
Kathleen: Hi Anne. Thanks for having me on today.
Anne: We’re grateful that you’re brave enough to share your story to help other women. We’re talking about how your cheating husband says that it’s your fault. So why don’t you start with your backstory? What was your situation?
Kathleen: I guess from day one of my marriage, I felt like something wasn’t right and I could never put my finger on. We were, I thought, happily married, had a child. Then shortly after my second child was born, I just felt that something wasn’t right.
Discovering His Infidelity
Kathleen: I found out, unfortunately, that my husband was into exploitative material, and that was just devastating. I felt like everything was over. Although I didn’t want to end the marriage, I felt like my perfect world with my newer marriage, my two sweet children, our sweet little family was just ruined.
It just was not what I thought it was. We immediately tried to get help. Unfortunately, he was lying to me. He blamed it on my pregnancy with my first and second child—something I later realized is exactly the kind of thing a cheating husband says to avoid taking responsibility. For years this went on with him dabbling in help. I just kept with it, trying to stay strong, trying to stay in the marriage. I never even thought this type of infidelity was abusive.
We kept going and we had our good times and then our bad times. When things were bad, they were very bad. Things were good sometimes, but it was really not much to hold on to. So, we went on like this for probably fourteen to fifteen years until we got help together. Through working with them over about a two year period, I started to see, that my husband just did not want to do the work to get better.
Which made us pretty much come to a halt. We separated about two summers ago for three months. He was able to come back and about two months after that, he was out for good. Since then, he blamed everything on me.
Realizing The Infidelity Was Emotional And Psychological Abuse
Anne: Let’s talk about those years of thinking he has an addiction and going down that route for a while. Did you ever consider you were dealing with an emotional and psychological abuser?
Kathleen: I had no idea.
Anne:And did anyone ever mention it to you? Like he’s been unfaithful, he’s abusive?
Kathleen: No, never. If anything, it was the opposite. It was, let’s help him. Let’s see what we could do to help him.
Anne: Or he’s such a good guy. We can’t understand why he’s doing this thing. Let’s get him some help.
Kathleen: Absolutely. Yeah. Or his past, you know, he had a rough upbringing, so this is why he’s doing it.
Anne: Right. Yeah. I often say, I know several people who have had a really super hard upbringing and they’re not abusers. So it’s not really a reason to be abusive
Challenges With Clergy Who Don’t Recognize Abuse
Anne: . He went for years to a well known Catholic counselor and men’s purity groups. Do you feel like they really understand that infidelity is abuse?
Kathleen: Absolutely not. We started with this one counselor, the well known Catholic counselor in infidelity expertise, and I felt like I was blamed in this situation, the same way a cheating husband says things that shift responsibility, and I just bailed quickly. Something in my gut told me, get away. Then, the last year or so, I heard that he might have changed the way he helped women and couples. I decided, let me give it another try. It was at least 15 years later. Unfortunately, it was just the same thing.
It was one session and done. No, there’s no change. It’s very unfortunate because these seem to be the people we turn to when you have a problem. It just causes more trauma for the women.
Anne: Right, what are some of the things that the priests said to you or did that was so traumatizing that blamed you?
Kathleen: In my parish? Yeah, so my parish priest actually supported me.
Anne: When you mean support, when you say supported, do you mean financially?
Kathleen: Not financially, there’s really no financial support. It was just an emotional support. He listened, he understood. He suggested I might have to separate with my husband, which I took that very seriously. Maybe four months later, we separated. After my husband went and talked to the pastor and the parish priest, both decided to take sides with him, which I don’t even know why a side had to be taken.
Cheating Husband Says OTher’s Should Stay Neutral
Anne: I can tell you why.
Kathleen: Go ahead.
Anne: A side does need to be taken. A neutral party will always benefit the perpetrator. The problem is, most of the time, they side with the perpetrator. instead of the victim. Because in an abuse situation, there’s a perpetrator and a victim. If you stay neutral and say, well, she’s got her side of the story and he has his side of the story and the truth is somewhere in the middle, that means that you believe what he is saying a little bit. These are some of the confusing factors when deciding if you should stay married after infidelity.
Maybe she’s lying a little bit rather than recognizing, no, this is a perpetrator. He’s going to do everything he can to avoid accountability and blame his victim. And a victim who’s telling the truth, who’s trying to get to safety. So, it’s really important for people to take sides, but they need to take sides with the right party.
They need to protect the victim. Any type of neutrality or even thinking, well, he couldn’t be that bad, is harmful to the victim. Since infidelity is abusive to partners, taking the right side is important.
When Cheating Husband COnvinces Others It’s Your Fault
Kathleen: Right. And that’s a lot of what I’ve been experiencing. He’s been getting into the ear of anybody who knew us and telling them how horrible I have been, the same kind of story-spinning a cheating husband says to protect himself. Getting back to the priest, the priest was the one who was spreading that I was a liar and I have manipulated the entire situation. Anybody in this situation that I was in would have taken the advice he gave. Which, I don’t even know what help he was talking about.
Anne: This is one of the ways abusers manipulate their victims. People don’t understand that an abuser claiming that his victim is the abuser is abuse.
Kathleen: Absolutely. So, this abuse has not only extended to him lying to everybody about you and blaming you, but also roping third party people. Like a priest in your parish or other people, to also abuse you through blaming you.
When CheatinG Husband Says It’s Because of You
Kathleen: That’s exactly what’s happening now. I can honestly say that this secondary abuse is way worse than what I experienced directly from my husband.
Anne: Why would you say that is? I agree with you. I’ve experienced it as well. And I agree. But for our listeners, in your opinion, why do you think that is?
Kathleen: Well, I think, first of all, it’s my own healthy pride. I want to be an upstanding Christian and a good person. Now people see me as a liar and a manipulator, which I’m not. The other part of it is that, I’ve lost my community. I had to leave my church and go to a different church. It’s very hard because I feel like a lot of people look down their nose at me and I just try to hold my head high and have faith in God to get me through.
Recognizing The Full Extent of His Infidelity
Anne: When did you realize that all these years of, “Something’s not quite right.” When did you realize that was just flat out emotional and psychological abuse and coercion?
Kathleen: I always knew that it wasn’t right. I knew it wasn’t healthy, but I didn’t realize it was abuse until after our second separation. When surfing the internet one night looking at abuse and decided to call our local abuse shelter.
I called and said, I don’t know if I’m being abused. From the information that I gave them about what happened to me, they assured me that I was absolutely being abused. They also helped me to see that other behaviors that had happened in our marriage were abuse that I didn’t even realize were wrong, not just the things my cheating husband says, but the patterns behind them. I mean, I’ve been emotionally, psychologically, financially, and even physically abused. I didn’t realize I was also being physically abused.
Anne: Did that shock you because you’d never called an abuse specialist before, right? You’d always called maybe a marriage counselor or, some type of clergy or some kind of addiction specialist. Were you shocked that immediately right out of the gate, these people never talked to you before? We’re like, yeah, this is super abusive and that you’d never heard it from anyone else.
Kathleen: I was, and I felt it was such a disadvantage. Going through this, it was always focusing on his infidelity. I was always searching for addiction services for spouses, the help for that, and I couldn’t find anything to help with what a cheating husband says. But all the behaviors surrounding it make it abuse.
Finding Support and Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Kathleen: It was mind boggling and maddening to know that there was nothing out there.
I never wanted to go to marriage counseling for some reason. I knew in my gut, it was not a marriage issue. It was infidelity and it was his problem . So I was grateful for that, but it was hard to find help.
Kathleen: I think I found it probably about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago. Just found BTR online and saw there was The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and religiously started to listen because it was the only place that got it.
Anne: What did you think after years of the, help him, be gentle with him because he has these childhood problems. Let’s try not to trigger him, don’t shame him, are you a good wife? Are you giving him it when he needs it? What did you think after coming to BTR and listening? What did that feel like for you?
Kathleen: I just felt like there was a place that understood what it really was and I knew that it was the right place to get the information that I needed to educate myself.
Lying, Manipulation, Gaslighting ARE Infidelity
Anne: It’s like you know it in your gut, but you don’t have words for it. You don’t have a place to process it appropriately. If you try to process it with the addiction people and they tell you, no, it’s you and you need to be patient then it halts your processing, it stops you. It’s like floating around, but you can’t ever grab it. It’s like foggy and you can’t quite get out of that fog.
Kathleen: Right. I always knew, I always had the gut feeling and I would thankfully go with my gut feeling, but I could never put my finger on where things were going wrong. I mean, I never caught him using it again, I always was asking myself the question is he using or is he not? He claims sobriety. Those claims, the things a cheating husband says, kept me doubting myself.But based on what I know now and looking back, I know he was still using. I know he was because I know the way he behaved, it’s obvious because infidelity is abuse. I know the way that he kept me at a distance.
He wouldn’t engage with me at all emotionally, which devastated me. It was like I was a stranger in our house, but outside he acted like husband of the year. He would get coffee for me in front of other people. He would act like he was just so in love when he was with me in public, which is part of the reason why people just don’t understand the situation and they believe him that I’m the liar and the manipulator.
Secrecy Of Infidelity Makes It Traumatic
Anne: When you changed your outward talk from did the third party people get more angry with you? Are they like, whoa, wait a minute. You’ve said he’s a addict. Now you’re claiming he’s an abuser? Did they get more upset?
Kathleen: Well, not really because nobody knew he was a user. That was secret. It was my own private secret that I lived in. My family didn’t know. Our friends didn’t know. Nobody knew. I didn’t tell people. I was very much ashamed that was in our marriage.
Anne: Okay, did you tell people when you recognized it was abuse, did you start saying, he’s abusive?
Kathleen: Once we were separated for the second time and it was pretty much out there that we were no longer together. Yes. I told people that he had abused explicit online media and that he was abusive. I was trying to get myself to safety.
My family is so supportive, tremendously supportive, even more than I even thought that they could be. I’ve had friends that I wasn’t that close with, but they understood because of their own experiences through their life. They are like a rock to me, but then a lot of people that I thought I could count on, just disappeared or sided with him.
People Who Are Uneducated About Infidelity Don’t Know It Causes Trauma
Anne: Yeah. I’ve seen that happen too. It’s really interesting. Even a couple of friends that we had that her husband is also a user have decided to side with my ex. They’re still married. I wonder if they think, well, if we talk to Anne, she’s so intent on saying infidelity is abuse, maybe our marriage would be in jeopardy, so we don’t want to go down that route.
I’m not sure why they’ve decided to do that, but he’s still exhibiting abusive behaviors from my perspective, but of course they can’t see that. Why would you want to be friends with an abuser? That makes no sense to me,
Kathleen: Right.
Anne: Also I think we can clearly see that they’re lying and manipulating people, but they can’t see it.
Kathleen: No, and there is a part of me that has a little sympathy for the third party people. I believed my husband’s lies for years. I mean, my whole relationship was based on the lies a cheating husband says to protect himself.
Anne: Yep, and if we couldn’t see it, they don’t even live with him. Of course it would be hard for them to see it too.
Kathleen: Right, he’s good at lying.
Anne: Good at manipulation, good at grooming, really.
Kathleen: Absolutely.
Anne: A lot of women are hoping that their relationship will work out and hoping that once he’s confronted about his abusive behaviors he will get into some type of program and get help.
Importance of Truth & Full Disclosure In What A Cheating Husband Says
Anne: If they go down the addiction recovery route, many programs do what is known as a full disclosure. Where the abuser is supposed to outline all of his indiscretions, but doesn’t necessarily include all abuse episodes. Since you went down that route for a little while, did you ever have a quote unquote full disclosure with the help of an addiction specialist? Then you have to figure out if your husbands apology is genuine.
Kathleen: No, unfortunately I did not. Anything that I found out about my husband was either me finding out by catching him or him over the years, basically, drip feeding me information and I would figure things out.
Anne: You say unfortunately. Is that something that you think would have helped you or why did you say unfortunately?
Kathleen: I say unfortunately because without any truth, there is no basis for your relationship and I never received truth. That’s part of the reason or a main reason why my marriage fell apart. If he was truthful with me, I feel like maybe we could have fixed things and worked on it better.
Anne: A lot of people get a full disclosure, but it’s not a full disclosure. So there are times where a cheating husband says he’s told the whole truth, but it’s not the full truth. And that, fake full truth is very difficult for victims because they think, oh, finally we have the whole truth.
Discovering The Truth Is Difficult
Anne: But they don’t. The other thing I think is interesting is, fake histories that they might give as excuses. I am not about to say that your husband wasn’t actually abused, but some of them do say things like that as an excuse. For example, I know of one abuser who told his victim that he was abused by a neighbor, but she is now 100 percent convinced that he abused the neighbor.
Kathleen: I believe there could be some truth to that. I took what my husband told me with a grain of salt, but he said he was abused, I took it seriously to protect my children.
Anne: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s one thing that’s difficult to know when you’re dealing with an abusive and manipulative man who is willing to lie at all costs, is that truth that you think you know might not be the truth at all.
A full disclosure might not be a full disclosure. I want to give women who think, I wish I could have gotten a full disclosure and he would have told me the truth. If someone does not want to tell you the full truth, they might pretend to give it to you.
That might be as harmful as not knowing anything. When we’re dealing with someone who lies at this scale, What worries me is the fake truth that women think that they receive and then they feel safe because they feel like they’ve received it all when it’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Women Feel Betrayal Trauma Because Cheating Husband Says It’s Her Fault
Kathleen: That’s a good point and I think that with my husband, the way he is, nothing that ever came out of his mouth to me was truthful. Early on, I did pray to God to let me know what I needed to know. I guess I’ll just be grateful that I know what I know and that’s all I need to know.
Anne: Isn’t that interesting. As women of faith who decided to divorce, can we talk about your decision to divorce or are you divorced?
Kathleen: Not officially. I actually separated from my husband with the intent for him to go get help. Through that time, he chose to go live with his, suspected abuser, or at least who he claims abused him. He went to live with him for over a year. It was his brother.
Anne: His brother. Okay. So he chooses to go live with the person who he has told you abused him?
Kathleen: Yes, which was a huge red flag to me.
Because he claimed this, but then went to live with him. Then he decided about a year ago that he wanted to file for divorce.
Anne: That sounds really similar to my story, by the way. My ex claimed that he was abused by his parents and that his parents were really abusive, but hangs out with them all the time, without saying that their behaviors have changed. There is no claim, they’re totally different now.
Navigating Community Judgment And Isolation WHEN A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS YOU’RE THE PROBLEM
Kathleen: Right now I’m really struggling with the community thing. It’s really tough to live in a community of people. It’s even where I work. The school that I teach at is where my children attend and it’s part of a small Catholic community. There I am working amongst people who think what my cheating husband says is true…that I’m the liar and manipulator and the marriage ruiner. So, it’s tough.
Anne: That is really, really hard. I am very sorry. I pray often that the truth is known to people somehow. There are days, do you ever do this? Where you read the local newspaper, thinking that you’ll see him in the newspaper? Do you ever do that?
Kathleen: I feel like someday I will hear that he has like either a DUI or was arrested or something.
Anne: Yeah.
Kathleen: He works at a local high school, so. Always worried about that as well.
Anne: It’s so strange to think that someone who has not taken any accountability is still just walking around. Not only just walking around, but affecting your life at such a level. Especially when you are the victim of his abuse without people really acknowledging or being compassionate or empathetic about your situation. Instead, being more judgmental, it feels more isolating.
Kathleen: Right, yeah, it does. Then, you get your wishy washy people who say, I don’t want to choose a side. That’s probably one of the worst things you can say to somebody who’s abused. Because it’s like, I don’t take you seriously.
WHEN OTHERS SIDE With WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS
Anne: Yeah, I don’t believe you. I confront people about that. I would not recommend it, by the way. But I say, you need to pick a side. Because I’m a victim of abuse and he’s a perpetrator. Would you like to stand with a victim and stop enabling a perpetrator, or not?
Kathleen: Right.
Anne: They don’t like that one bit. People feel very uncomfortable about that. Then they think, Oh, she really is crazy.
Kathleen: It’s amazing how their crazy look makes us look more crazy.
Anne: Instead of thinking, Oh, they don’t like us, or they don’t like what we say about abuse, or they think we’re going too far when we call these guys abusers.
I think it’s more strategic to have a surprised posture, in your head. You don’t want to like insult people, like, that’s surprising to me. I didn’t know that you were here from 1830. In a time machine and that you didn’t know abusers do this and that what you’re saying is an extension of his abuse. Well, weird.
I mean it’s more strategic to have an attitude or an energy about us that is more surprise than traumatized. It’s impossible to not be traumatized when someone says something triggering, that’s obviously harmful, that’s not empathetic, or not caring at all. It’s impossible not to be hurt by that.
I wonder if we all took this, I’m shocked. A therapist wrote and said, I don’t agree with BTR’s model. I don’t think it’s abusive. So I can’t associate with you. My first email to him back was like, I’m so sorry. That makes sense. I wish you the best.
EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS
Anne: Then I thought, wait a minute. I’m not going to write this. I’m writing, Oh, I’m surprised to hear that lying and manipulation are emotional and psychological abuse. That’s what I wrote. He wrote back and said, Oh, I do. I recognize it’s abuse. I just don’t agree with what BTR says. And I’m like, Hmm? He said, I don’t think infidelity is abusive, is what he said. This is a prominent therapist out there.
Kathleen: Wow.
Anne: And I was like, Okay, whatever.
Kathleen: That’ll leave me to believe. Well, what’s going on in your world? Why are you, defending it?
Anne: Yeah. Why would anyone think that viewing someone abusing isn’t participating in abuse in some way? Or at the very least sending your energy somewhere other than your wife. What do you want to call that? If you don’t want to call it abuse.
Kathleen: I call that infidelity.
Anne: Infidelity is also abusive, right? Why are you so afraid of the word abuse?
Kathleen: I guess because it’s so strong and so many people think of it as hitting their wife, instead of what a cheating husband says. It’s so just extreme to call something abuse. I think that’s part of the problem. People need education on it.
Anne: What you went through is extreme. To say that, it’s too extreme to call it abuse. You went through years of psychological and emotional abuse and coercion. You are still a victim of abuse in your community from a perpetrator who is talking to your community about you and lying about you.
The Ongoing Struggle With Abuse
Anne: If you don’t call that extreme, what is? In terms of the way it affects you on a daily basis, that is extreme. It’s abuse. There’s no other word for it.
Kathleen: Right.
He’s still able to be in contact with me, unfortunately, because of our children, which leads the door open for him to continue to abuse me.
Anne: Exactly. You do your best to set boundaries, you do your best to heal, all those things that are healthy. It’s not impossible. You will live an amazing life, and things will get better for you over time. But they don’t understand that there’s no way to stop him from abusing you.
Kathleen: Right. It’s a shame because, our judicial system and even co-parent counseling, they just don’t understand how what a cheating husband says can hurt you. And it’s difficult because the boundaries that you set up are torn down or changed because you have to follow.
Anne: The parenting plan or something.
Kathleen: Yeah. Parenting plan or some kind of legal plan.
Anne: This is why I created The Living Free Workshop. Have you ever talked to the legal system or your attorney about being emotionally and psychologically abused and you need a parallel parenting plan?
Kathleen: He is very well aware. We just started a second co-parent counseling and I do want to ask if we could do a parallel parenting plan.
Anne: Yeah, it’s a difficult situation, and it’s ongoing, divorce doesn’t stop the abuse. It can protect us from a lot of things, but it can’t stop the things a cheating husband says. So that’s what’s really difficult. And so many victims now are praying and praying and praying for justice all over the world.
Faith And Frustration In the Face Of Abuse
Anne: It feels like we pray and pray and pray and that our prayers aren’t answered.
Kathleen: It’s kind of like any relationship. There are times I feel like God is right by my side and that’s what gets me through the day. Then there are times that I’m asking, “Lord, where are you? I don’t feel you.” So, it’s hard, I always have faith in our Lord, I know He is there, but to feel Him just makes it so much more doable to get through the situation.
Kathleen: It’s tough, I couldn’t do it without my faith, I couldn’t do it without God, and I am grateful for that, but it’s hard, and I too pray for truth, I’m like, Lord, I need truth to come out soon. I need it soon. So, hasn’t been answered yet, but I know that God is always working in mysterious ways. I’m just living in hope that it will come out at some point.
Anne: Yeah, I had a discussion with God the other day. He was like, I answer so many of your prayers. You just don’t notice because you’re focused on these other ones, you know, kind of like that. And I was thinking, but I don’t care about those other ones. These are the ones I want you to answer. Answer them now. Why are you not answering them? I’m so mad at you.
Hopes For Divine Intervention
Anne: It is frustrating to feel like he helped me with this and he helped me with that, but why can’t he help me so I don’t have to have any more contact with my abuser, which is a really big thing.
Kathleen: Right, That’s one of my prayers as well. I find it going to, like, sinful thoughts sometimes, which I try not to do.
Anne: Like him getting hit by a bus?
Kathleen: Totally, it is an accurate answer, it also, to me would be protection for my children because they are abused as well.
Anne: Exactly, yeah, I wonder about all those Old Testament stories of the wicked being smitten. I don’t know, but I know that the best we can do, if we’re women of faith, is to be obedient. Obedient to the commandments and do the best we can under a very difficult situation.
Kathleen: Right, and hopefully in God’s time, it will all come out.
Anne: If you could go back in time and share with your younger self what would you tell her?
Kathleen:I guess to go with your gut feeling. If you are doubting anything about what a cheating husband says, don’t second guess it. Look into it a bit more, be sure of who you marry and spend the rest of your life with.
Educating Future Generations
Anne: It’s interesting though, if you don’t know what you’re looking for, you could spend time with them and not see it. We all spent years with our abuser and we didn’t recognize we were being abused. That’s why it’s important to me that women know that you’ll experience if your cheating husband says it’s your fault.
Kathleen: Right. And that is what happened. And I had some odd dreams that happened and I pretty much ignored them. Which I wish I didn’t do.
Anne: Yeah, when you have no context for it, it’s difficult to see.
Anne: That’s one of the goals of Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to educate women all over the world about abuse, about what it looks like so that we can educate our children, so if they have a dream, they have context for what they’re experiencing.
Kathleen: Right. Yeah, hopefully it’ll be easier for my children down the road.
Anne: Kathleen, thank you so much for being brave and sharing your story.
Kathleen: Anne, thank you for the opportunity to share my story. It’s, definitely helpful to know there are other women out there that understand, and I’m not alone in this.
If People Say Marriage is Hard Work, Here’s What They Don’t Know
Aug 06, 2024
A lot of people say marriage is hard work. But what if it’s not? What if healthy marriage is easy and what you’re going through is something else?
What if Marriage is Only Hard When…
The so-called “hard work” of marriage may stem from unforeseen external circumstances, like health challenges, financial strain, or extended family issues for a short period. If your marriage is hard work, all of the time, it may be due to unseen harm inflicted by your husband through emotional, psychological, or spiritual abuse. It’s often difficult to see that his behavior is manipulative or coercive. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.
And what’s worse, when we try to get help by going to couple therapy, or maybe clergy, or even friends and family, they don’t help. They often just say what everybody else does – “marriage is hard work.” If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.
Because we’re kind and empathetic, of course, we’re going to give our husband the benefit of the doubt, reframing what’s going on. We may say, “he’s just stressed” or “having a bad day.”
We may also blame ourselves for not being able to make our relationship work (I know I did), not realizing that his exploitative character doomed the “relationship” from the start. So let’s find out if this is going on in your relationship.
What If Emotional Abuse is Hidden?
Does the Hard Work of Marriage Involve these 6 things?
If the hard work you’re talking about involves these 6 things, it’s likely there’s something else going on:
Confusion
Going For Help (Over and Over)
The Wrong “Diagnosis” (Several Times)
Despair
Abuse Education
Making Your Way To Emotional Safety
Here’s how these 6 things will show up if what you’re going through isn’t just the “hard work” of marriage.
Transcript: If People Say Marriage is a Hard Work, Here’s What They Don’t Know
Anne: All the abuse I talk about in Betrayal Trauma Recovery is hidden.
1. Is Confusion Part of the Hard Work of Marriage?
[Women know when something is wrong. We often don’t know what the issue is if there are cycles of confusion.] We resist by trying to figure out what’s going on. Most victims blame themselves or believe marriage is hard work.
So, we try harder to improve our safety by learning to communicate better, believing the issue lies with us, especially if our husband says so. At first, we trust him without question. We believe that being a better wife or more patient will make things better. We convince ourselves that changing our behavior will fix the situation. Later, we realize the “hard work” involves trusting a man who doesn’t deserve our trust.
Because we lack education or terminology to describe what’s happening when we talk to our friends, our friends might say, “oh, did you hear about the personality types?” [They give us basic relationship advice, or even just healthy living advice, because they don’t see the patterns or understand the dynamics. Even if marriage is hard work, it shouldn’t involve ongoing patterns of confusion.]
2. IF Marriage is Hard Work, Does It Mean searching for expert Help Over and Over Again?
If your marriage is causing you to keep trying to find the right help, that’s not just “hard work”. Victims are smart. We can tell when we need help, and we can tell when we’re in over our heads.
So consider this analogy. Let’s pretend like you’re in a college writing class. You write what you think is an incredible paper. You turn it in and you get a C.
Hidden Emotional Abuse Leaves No Scars
If you’re a smart person, you’re not afraid of hard work. So you say, “There’s apparently more for me to know. I’ll go get help from the expert, my writing professor.”
You’re willing to trust them more than yourself at this moment, because they’re the writing expert. In this situation, a smart person would say to themselves, “I understand that my perception of my own writing may not be accurate. I’m actually not an expert writer, and my professor is. Plus, I’m not afraid of hard work. I’m willing to put in the effort to learn what I did wrong and improve it.”
Analogy of the Writing Class
Contrast that with a student who gets a C on a paper and thinks, “my writing professor is dumb. I know more than her.” Their writing isn’t going to improve much, and people probably think they’re delusional. I was a writing teacher for a time, and I had those two different types of students.
https://youtube.com/shorts/tfDqyzHOKLI
Some students thought their writing was incredible. But it was just bad, and I was thinking, wow, their perception and reality are two different things. The smart students were like, “Oh, I can see what you’re saying. I will add some paragraphs and they would improve over time.”
[So when marriage is hard work, and we realize we’re in over their heads, we go to couple therapy, or clergy, or we talk to family and friends.] We think, “Even though this doesn’t feel right to me, maybe I’m not seeing it accurately.”
Who is Willing To learn and to do the hard work?
Victims of abuse are often willing to try it differently, or willing to accept that marriage is hard work, and do what the couple therapist says, hoping it will get easier. [When things get worse and worse, and they can’t figure out why, they’ll try another professional or method, hoping to resolve the issues in the marriage.]
The reason why things are getting worse is because when victims go for help to a couple therapist or clergy, or even addiction recovery programs, they’re not getting help from the abuse professor. In this case, it’s like getting writing help from an expert acrobat who knows nothing about writing. Sure, they’re an expert Acrobat, but you don’t need help with your acrobatics.
You need help with your writing skills. So in this case, you’re not delusional when you go to a therapist. They are like, “oh, well, do you understand his needs? Can you be safer with him? Because maybe he feels unsafe. So how could you make him feel safer?” Or maybe they suggest using explicit content because you’re not meeting his needs.
Because abuse victims are smart, capable, and resourced, they’re constantly asking who can help me figure this out. You did your part, you’re a victim of abuse. You went for help. The problem is, the professionals who were supposed to help don’t know about abuse.
They’re not abuse experts.
3. Do you need a “Diagnosis” if marriage is hard work?
[If your marriage is hard work and you’ve been searching for help, your search may have resulted in incorrect diagnosis after incorrect diagnosis of the problem. You may have been told your husband is an addict, or he has a personality disorder, or he’s struggling from his traumatic childhood.]
Maybe he has “anger management issues.”
So once you get this “diagnosis” from a therapist who is not an expert in abuse, you’re going to get treatment for that particular “diagnosis”.” Then, you may do a year or two of treatment, maybe it’s addiction treatment, or treatment for his traumatic childhood.
A year or two down the line, when things haven’t improved, you try a different therapist, and get a new diagnosis. And you’re like, “oh, that’s what it is”.” And then you get treatment for that for a few years.
Many women in our community have experienced this pattern. I did this for seven years. First it was anger management, from his traumatic childhood, and then, he was an addict. We saw CSAT therapists. Then, another therapist suggested he had bipolar disorder.
Marriage and Family Therapy Limitations
[One of the reasons we see this pattern so often is that marriage and family therapists’ professional code of conduct or ethics restricts them from taking a side.] The foundational theory for marriage and family therapy is family systems. In family systems, everybody has a part to play. Everyone has to shift a little bit to improve the situation. So it’s a it takes two to tango model.
It does not take two to ruin the tango. It only takes one person to ruin the tango. There’s also no official diagnosis of “abuser” in the DSM. So, if anybody goes into a therapist, they won’t get diagnosed as such. Many times the victims will be diagnosed, maybe as codependent.
They might even say, “Well, you’re abusive too, because you yelled at him and you shouldn’t have done that.”
Instead of saying, “Hey, you were trying to get to safety any way you could. Way to go. Resisting abuse is always good. How can I help you do it more effectively?”
They’re never going to do that in front of the abuser. They shouldn’t. But this creates a cocktail of problems.
If marriage is hard work – who is doing the work?
I have a master’s degree, and I tried so hard to figure out what was going on.
I was confused and knew I needed help. So I went for help. I wasn’t afraid to work hard for my marriage. And due to going for help, I got my ex to start addiction recovery therapy for seven years. I’d been trying to get help the entire time, and no one ever mentioned abuse, but so many other victims have the same experience.
I found myself for a long time, chasing down incorrect diagnosis after incorrect diagnosis. If your marriage is hard work, it should not include going to therapy for years and years, without change. It could be that you go to family and friends and they say, “Oh, he’s just really stressed.” And that’s the “diagnosis.”
So maybe if you reduce his stress, then he’d be doing better. It doesn’t have to necessarily be coming from therapy. I probably went to over seven therapists. Five or six bishops, which is the clergy in my faith.
It’s shocking that people can go for help, want help, and be perfectly willing to see the truth. Yet, they still can’t figure out what’s going on.
When Couple Therapy creates More Hard Work
So many women in our community have been in couple therapy for years, 5 years, 10 years, addiction recovery for years. Some other type of therapy and the word abuse never came up. That is a serious, serious problem. Instead, they have an incorrect diagnosis and started an incorrect treatment.
When I started podcasting, my goal was to help women avoid this. If I can get to them sooner and let them know. Then they won’t have to spend years and years in couple therapy or addiction recovery, they can just start making their way to safety right now.
But I often think I’m somehow split into two different people. I have my current self now, podcasting, and myself back then. If I found my own podcast back then, I might not have listened. I would be like, “Wow, that’s extreme. He’s not abusive.” This therapist tells me that he “just has an addiction” and “our marriage will be better than ever, if we do his treatment program”.
I’m not going to listen to her podcast, because that seems too extreme. Then I do a couple therapy, addiction recovery therapy, or whatever else for a few years. Before I came to the conclusion that I already came to, and then I’d be like, “That Anne at BTR.ORG knows what she’s talking about. If I’d only listened to her.”
Be Patient With Yourself As You Figure Out why your marriage is hard work
I just don’t think I could have circumvented seeking help and going through those incorrect diagnosis stages. I don’t know if anyone can, because other people offer an alternative, then, wouldn’t you want to try that first?
That’s what I thought back then. [Now I’m like, you’re going to go through a lot more pain if you don’t have good strategies, like the ones I teach in The Living Free Workshop here at BTR. The sooner women start using these strategies, the quicker things will change for them.]
Also, if he’s the type of abuser who responds to the strategy by realizing he needs to change, that’s the best case scenario. Some men have realized that. It’s the best bet for your safety.
But in terms of addiction recovery or couple therapy, it’s stunning to me that this entire industry asks abuse victims to calm down and work with an emotional and psychological abuser.
And that’s industry standard for a couple therapy. It’s an industry standard for addiction therapy. And it should never happen in an abuse situation. It’s unethical. And that they don’t see it for the actual abuse situation that it is, is shocking to me.
If you described these behaviors to any domestic violence shelter, they would say, “This is abuse.” And so the whole therapeutic process or treatment process ends up traumatizing the victim, and they’re way more traumatized than they would have been otherwise.
Suggesting A Victim Stays In Proximity To A Man Who is Hurting Her Is Unethical
Any therapist or clergy who suggests a victim needs to be in proximity to an abuser in order to heal is doing something unethical.
It happens a lot with addiction recovery therapy. It happens a lot in the faith-based community, where divorce is the worst case scenario. They don’t realize that a woman being abused is the worst case scenario.
Then also in couple therapy or addiction recovery, the abuser lies throughout the whole thing to gain sympathy to have a rapport with the therapist or clergy. So they can’t see him clearly either, because he manipulates the therapist, the clergy and people around him.
4. Does the Hard Work of Marriage Involve Despair?
[Many victims of this cycle feel trapped and like giving up, because their marriage is hard work even after they’ve tried and tried to get help.]
They think maybe it is me, maybe I am the terrible one, maybe I am too controlling or I don’t respect him. Or I expect too much from him. Despair sets in when they feel experts led them astray, and this is not their fault because they were smart and amazing. They went for help, because that’s what smart people do. They were resisting abuse the best way they can.
So this despair is like the dark before the dawn.
5. If marriage is hard work, should I educate Him about Abuse?
[If your marriage is hard work, and you’ve been learning about abuse, maybe from my podcast, or somewhere else, and you’re thinking about educating or confronting your husband, you’re not alone.]
[When women learn about abuse, they often resist by confronting their husbands and trying to educate him about it, hoping he’ll change because he doesn’t want to be abusive.]
The problem with Confronting Abusers
[The problem with confronting your husband or trying to educate him about abuse is that he already knows that the behavior works for him and he chooses to do it.] He’s perfectly capable of not acting like this, because you’ve seen [him do it with other people and when he’s grooming.]
He knows what he’s doing. [He loves is when you believe marriage is hard work, and you’re working so hard to save the marriage.] Because you don’t know what he’s doing, and the therapists don’t know what he’s doing, [it gives him time to learn how to manipulate you and them into continuing the work. For this reason,] I don’t recommend many men’s programs anymore, because I found the abuser uses all the words they learn to continue to manipulate.
So many men’s program therapists are manipulated by the abuser. Getting educated about abuse can be bittersweet.
The truth about why your marriage is hard work may set you free
You’re likely to be more traumatized when you’ve been doing the hard work for your marriage, and you’ve been thwarted every step of the way. It’s also more traumatizing when you’re like, now I know it’s abuse. Okay, I’m going to tell him it’s abuse, I’m going to tell the clergy it’s abuse. I’m going to tell the therapist it’s abuse. And you tell them, and then it doesn’t help either.
The good part about this: you finally know 100% in your heart and in your soul that it’s not you. Things really start to make sense. You can face reality head on because you can see it.
This happened to me. When the domestic violence shelter suggested I educate myself about abuse. I was like, I’m not going to read that book because I kinda don’t want to know. Because I was there, I assume many other women are there, because there’s no silver lining to abuse. It’s all bad. There’s no good news when it comes to abuse.
However, I feel confident that abuse education does not create abuse out of nowhere. [When your marriage is hard work, and you’re trying to improve things by getting educated, you’re not going to think he’s emotionally abusive, if he’s not.]
A few times where I said to a woman, “oh, that sounds like abuse. Read this book.” And she read it, and listens to the podcast, and she is like, “I didn’t relate to any of those stories. That’s not my experience.” I’m like, “congratulations, it’s not abuse.”
If You Are In A Safe Relationship, Learning About Hidden Abuse Won’t Create It
So just like getting your blood drawn is not going to give you cancer. If your situation doesn’t fit, it’s going to be obvious that it just doesn’t fit.
Reading a book or listening to a podcast, and educating yourself about abuse, is like getting lab work for cancer. If you don’t have it, great! Or, you know, you have it.
Abuse has clear and defining characteristics. Educate yourself about abuse, and you’ll know whether he is abusive, or not. I wish everyone whose marriage is hard work would start learning about abuse and identify it from the start.
Part of abuse education is coming to understand the intense harm we’ve suffered. It’s so painful to recognize. [Learning about his lies, deceit, and addiction was traumatizing, but it got really bad when I learned about abuse, and realized all the harm and suffering it was causing.]
The trauma was intense for a long time. Even though he was not around, he was still abusing me post divorce by manipulating and undermining the kids. So I do think we still cycled back through the belief that marriage is hard work and self-blame for a while.
6. When marriage is hard work, how do you get to Emotional Safety?
I want to educate women about abuse, so they can make informed choices. The abuse education I teach here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. All of our coaches use industry standard abuse education, so we have the best support for betrayal trauma.
[It’s important to know what strategies to use, and our BTR Coaches will guide you through the process.
You define what safety means and answer critical questions: What will I do now that I understand the situation? How will I create a peaceful, emotionally and psychologically safe home?
These are the questions we’re asking. And we’re making the shift from believing marriage is hard work to recognizing and healing from abuse.
Recognizing Coersion
I mentioned coercion. Coercion in marriage is invisible. It can happen in various ways. What I talk about on this podcast often is when a man uses pornography or has an affair. Or has a secret life. He obstructs his wife from having the knowledge she needs to have a mutual relationship. So he uses psychological abuse, emotional abuse, gas-lighting, lying deceit to purposefully obstruct his wife from finding out who he really is.
This is coercion, because if she knew who he was, the likelihood of her consenting to intercourse is extremely low, and he knows that he’s well aware. So he obstructs her from gaining that knowledge, so she will continue to either have it with him or continue to be in a relationship with him. If you have been betrayed you are not alone.
Here’s an example of abuse that the public wouldn’t necessarily recognize as the abuse. But once you’re educated about it, you can clearly see it’s abusive.
Discovering Financial Abuse
This one is under the category of financial abuse. Let’s say there’s a woman named Rose. She’s lived a seemingly ordinary suburban life. She’s married to Tom, a well-respected local entrepreneur. To the outside world. They’re the picture of success, nice cars, a beautiful home, frequent vacations.
To their family and friends, Tom meticulously crafted a narrative that paints Rose as financially irresponsible. Insisting that he needs to take full control of their finances to protect her from her own poor spending habits. This seems reasonable to Rose at first.
She’s thinking, “Since I don’t know a lot about our finances, maybe I’m spending too much, so yeah. Of course I’m willing to work hard for the sake of our marriage.” As the months turned into years, decisions about money evolved into a series of overpowering restrictions that Tom imposes on Rose. Because she’s “irresponsible”.”
Marriage is Hard Work when His Real Goal Is Control
The thing is she’s not, and she never has been. They had a ton of money, so she could have gone out to lunch with her friends. She could buy clothes online. It wasn’t the lack of money that was the problem. The problem for Tom was that he found Rose’s independence and happiness, and all her friends, to be very threatening.
If he controlled her finances, he could start shutting things down. So as Rose’s access to money became limited, and discussions about budgeting were often framed as her “lack of understanding of their financial goals.” Which he never laid out for her, because he didn’t give her all the financial information.
When he did say we have this much money, it was a lie. So whenever she would question the restrictions, he would gently remind her of all the times she’s failed to manage the money wisely. Which by the way, she wasn’t allowed to manage. Highlighting her mistakes, which weren’t actually mistakes.
In Rose’s case, she starts to think she’s stupid, and finds herself increasingly isolated and unable to make financial decisions.
Here’s another example.
Financial Abuse Example: Eliza and the Engineer
Eliza is a successful attorney targeted by a financial abuser for her money. He lies to her about being a successful engineer. He’s like, “Hey. I’m super successful, too. Awesome. We’d make a good pair.” He covers up the fact that he had a low wage job with mountains of credit debt.
Then once they get married, he tells her that he lost his job because of cuts. She doesn’t know that this job never existed. Then he begins opening up new joint credit cards without her knowledge, and racking up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt that Eliza is on the hook for.
No one else finds out that he lied about being a successful engineer. No one would approach this as financial abuse or fraud, since they’re married.
Psychological Abuse and Gaslighting
When it comes to psychological abuse, gaslighting and other tactics intended to alter a victim’s reality.
Psychological abusers are willing to lie and also deny truth to your face to purposely deceive you. Lying is emotionally abusive.
They want to live that double life, and their willingness to deconstruct their victim’s identity through lying and gaslighting is shocking. Emotional abuse is intended to exploit and manipulate a victim’s emotions for gain. Trying to make someone depressed, sad, feel bad about themselves undermines their self-confidence.
All forms of abuse, stem from an inability to have empathy for other people. Abusers have a core belief that other people were created for them to exploit.
learning from Sharing our Marriage Stories
I’m so grateful for women all over the world who are sharing their stories. They share how they unknowingly suffered from betrayal and emotional and psychological abuse.
If you’re interested in sharing your story, I would be honored to hear it. Email podcast@btr.org to set up an interview with me. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we approach this as a domestic abuse issue.
I always use gender-segregated language because our services support women who are victims of male perpetrators. I acknowledge that some women engage in unhealthy behaviors. Some women are abusive, but I create podcasts specifically for women abused by men.
Because of misogyny, we see the serious added burden society puts on women to repair the relationship or keep things together. Women are under intense scrutiny and stress.
[Patterns of misogyny exist in therapy and religion, in the court system and other institutions like imbalanced medical treatment for women, which makes it even harder for us to identify and heal from abuse.]
Time and time again, [when women discover their husbands’ lies, betrayal, and deceit, often just after having a baby, during a holiday while hosting, or right after their children leave for college, their identities and bodies change drastically. And it continues throughout their lives as they navigate perimenopause symptoms.]
So, we focus on building a life of safety for ourselves, mentally and emotionally. That is when our healing can begin.
Strategies for healing from the belief that marriage is hard work
Part of that healing is learning strategies for interacting that are effective, that create an emotional and psychological safety barrier between you and the abuser. I know we can heal, I feel so much better now. But I still have good days and bad days, some days where things really hurt.
A bad day doesn’t mean you failed to “do the work” or need to forgive. It shows that an old injury feels sensitive today. Hidden abuse exists, causing emotional and psychological injuries. We can heal from them by using strategies and seeking the right kind of help.
I woudn’t call this the hard work of marriage, but I would call it the hard work of healing from emotional and psychological abuse.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we walk with you every step of the journey. So if any of this feels familiar, if you felt despair, if you sought help and didn’t receive it, if you try to figure out what’s going on and keep hitting dead ends, we are here for you.
The reason I started podcasting, the reason we started Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. The reason we started educating women about abuse on social media and through this podcast. It’s because we’ve been through it ourselves.
Has Your Husband Betrayed You? You Are Not Alone – Missy’s Story
Jul 30, 2024
Has your husband betrayed you? You are not alone. Anne and Missy share insights on healing from betrayal through recognizing betrayal, understanding manipulation, and finding support.
Transcript: If Your Husband Has Betrayed You, You Are Not Alone
Anne: Missy, a member of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community is on today’s episode. She is technically still married, although they’ve been separated for two years. She has two children. One is a teenager and another is a preteen. Let’s start with your story. Talk about how things first started and if you recognized your husband’s abusive behaviors at first.
Missy: I don’t think that I did recognize his abusive behaviors at first. I think in a way I was the perfect person for his abusive behaviors. I grew up in a home where my father was very detached. He adopted me. My mom and I came as a package deal. There’s a lot of provision, but not a lot of love. My mother is also a very broken person. She grew up in an alcoholic home, a lot of domestic violence.
There were a lot of behaviors and things. I learned, to love people despite it. I didn’t really question if this behavior or these words or any of this stuff was abusive. It was just when I married my husband. I think we were about two years in. We were in the ministry, he was a youth pastor. I had noticed a charge on one of our cards. I asked him, you know what is this? He was just very easy about it.
He said something like, “Oh, it’s just a fraudulent charge. I’ve already called the credit card company. I’m working on getting it refunded.” I assume it’s a charge for porn, yes. I’m not even sure exactly what it was. I’d never seen it before. It is something x rated. I think that was my first instance with it.
Confronting The Betrayal
Missy: Then another one happened. I went to him again. What is this? What’s going on? Do we need to change this card? This time he wasn’t as easy with it. He was a little bit more agitated, a little more ugly about it. My questioning it, I think that was the seed for me then. When I started to realize the doubt, possibly this is not just an error. Maybe there’s something more. He was acting so weird about it.
Maybe he wouldn’t shut down the card. He was like, we don’t need to shut it down. The first time he said it was fraud. We’re just going to take care of this. I think his exact words were, “You just need to get off my case about it.” We were still in the ministry. We lived considerably far away from my family. I didn’t have children at the time and would go home and visit for a week or two at a time.
I had gone to visit and I came back. There was a VHS videotape that I found. Really dates me there. I remember handing it to him, I knew that it was a pornography tape because of the name. That’s when it blew up. Unfortunately, that night we were heading to a youth activity.
Public Outbursts & Feeling Alone
Missy: We were fighting all the way to the youth activity. We get there and there’s a youth team that’s waiting to come together in prayer. He and I are fighting. We pull up and he just loses it, jumps out of the car and starts walking down the road.
Anne: That is a really common abusive thing to do. Did you know that? I don’t know if you know that. Jumping out of a car to say, I’m not going to take this anymore. Sort of, I’m not going to participate. It’s a strange form of control that most people aren’t aware happens. I just want to point that out if other women have been like, oh he has jumped out of the car and stomped away.
https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw
Missy: Yeah, it’s a rural area. There isn’t any mistaking that he’s walking down the road. I’m so embarrassed because he’s basically throwing this temper tantrum walking down the road. I’m not gonna tell people what’s going on. The youth leader was like, what’s going on? He knew something had happened, he’s upset. He went and talked to my husband. They came back. I thought I was stuck.
I didn’t know what to do at that point. We’re miles and miles away from support and family. We’re brand new to this ministry, this is our livelihood. He’s supposed to be the leader of the home. What am I supposed to do? There’s so much shame. You definitely don’t want to betray your husband by saying anything to anybody. It didn’t die, it just became this ugly thing between us that slowly deteriorated the ministry and us. I felt so alone.
Truth Sinks In
Anne: Did you go down the pornography addiction recovery route at all at this time? He needs help, let’s get him some help? Was there any of that? Did you go down that road?
Missy: Not at first because it was so shocking and not how you picture you’re going into the ministry. You’re in the ministry,. spreading the gospel to teenagers and watching teenagers get saved. I think I just threw myself into the ministry.
Anne: Did you think if we pray enough, if we work on the ministry enough, it’ll just kind of go away?
Missy: I hoped that he would love the ministry enough to give it up for it. I dove in. This is what we came here for. This is what we’re going to do. I love doing this. You say that you love doing this. We even did a purity conference.
Anne: Did you think, wait a minute, he’s a hypocrite, at all? Did you think if he does it enough, it’ll save him?
Missy: I think at that point I did still look to him and respect him as my leader. I believed that this was just a struggle. He just needed to dig in. It doesn’t define him, it’s not what it became. No, I don’t know if it became that, or I just opened my eyes more.
Anne: It was that way all the time, and then you realized more what was going on over time maybe?
Missy: I stopped, for lack of better terms, making excuses for it.
Church Principles
Anne: When you say leader, so your faith background is different than mine, can you explain that a little bit? Is that the typical, like, uh, We submit to a man because he’s the head or something like that. Can you explain that for women who might be in a different faith paradigm than you are?
Missy: Sure. I grew up believing that the man was the head of the household, but not in a misogynistic way. Like he says everything, he does everything and I just got to abide by it. I was taught we were still equal, that we still were responsible for what we brought to the marriage. Ultimately the decisions were by him. I could weigh in, definitely, and did. I was not un-opinionated, but I did grow up with the man being the head of your household.
Anne: Okay, so even though you thought we’re equal, it wasn’t technically equal because you didn’t have equal say?
Missy: It’s hard to answer that question because I’ve heard this phrase before where the man is the head, the woman’s the neck. We can turn the head any way we want. I do know that my husband absolutely respected the way I thought. There were a lot of times when it came to decisions, he would want me to weigh in, especially relational. You have a better understanding than me. Can you tell me what you think about this? Tell me what you think about that.
I would say that he was very fair in that way. When it came to things like money and things that he was just going to do, he just did them.
Anne: Maybe he just didn’t care about the other things. Who knows?
Pornography Addiction Recovery
Anne: Talk about when you went down the, pornography addiction recovery route for a little while because clearly that did not work. We know that ends. We know the end of this. Let’s talk about once you knew it was a pornography thing. How did things go with that?
Missy: I think we had been married 24 years by the time the divorce is final. I would say we were separated quite a few times throughout our marriage and it all was pornographically related. When we got back together, the longest time that we kind of stayed together, I got pregnant with my son shortly after us getting back together. Bringing kids into the picture changed the picture for me. It’s terrible to experience betrayal trauma when you’re pregnant.
Maybe that has a lot to do with growing up in an emotionally abusive home. I had a tolerance for myself, but then you bring an innocent into the picture and I had zero tolerance.
Anne: For the abuse?
Missy: For any kind of abuse.
Anne: In this case, if you don’t know what’s abuse, maybe the nonsense, you might call it, right?
Missy: Right. Because I don’t think I start calling it abuse until probably the last five years. that I really actually realized the way he was acting, the way he was treating me and the children was abusive.
Anne: So before you used the word abuse, what word would you use?
Missy: Addiction. It was his addiction. His addiction.
Anne: Okay. Pornography addiction. Okay.
Alone With Husband’s Betrayal
Missy: Right. Then we were back together and had our son, he was only nine months old, when it reared its ugly head again. I was working overnight at a hotel and the hotel was right across the street from the apartment buildings and they had an especially scary night. My work was in the night.
I went down to the end of the hallway and I was trying to call him. No answer, no answer, no answer. I got home the next morning and the computer was sitting on the coffee table. I flipped it open, he had just closed it, not shut everything off. There it was in my face. I was really angry this time.
I responded in a way I had never responded, I woke him up, plunked the laptop on his stomach. He just was really cocky, said that he left it there on purpose, wanted it to end. He didn’t want it to become an issue. And my response to that was, I took everything that was on the long dresser and threw it at him one at a time.
Anne: He wanted what to end? He wanted his pornography use to end. So he left it out there so you could catch him.
Missy: Yes. That’s what he said.
Anne: Because he can’t stop using by himself. Seeing that, he kind of said, it’s your responsibility to help me stop.
Betrayed And Seeking Help So You Are Not Alone
Missy: I left for a week or so, took my son and left. I told him he had a lot to think about. When I came back, I came with an arsenal. I said, this is what’s going to happen if we’re going to stay together. I’m not going to do this game that we did before. I’m not doing it. The first place he went to was a Celebrate Recovery. He completed it. They do it like in one year. Then the following year, I went to A Heart’s Restored. It was in the same church.
I went through the program, and he had to be gone. He stayed home then. They asked me if I would co-teach the next year, and I co-taught the next year.
Missy: No, the Hearts Restored group centered on, it’s going to sound terrible, but it wasn’t. It really did center on our relationship with God and the things that were broken within us that allowed these behaviors to continue.
Anne: Kind of a codependent model a little bit?
Missy: Maybe, because what I did actually work out was a lot of stuff in my past. My grandmother dying from alcoholism. How alcoholism affected my parents, my mother, my stepfathers, it’s connected. There was actually a lot of freedom for me gained from those things.
Anne: You found it to be helpful for your own personal. improvement in your own personal healing, even if it didn’t point out the abuse at the time.
Alone, Betrayed & Angry
Missy: He had fallen again. This time, instead of going to a celebrate recovery, because he was just, no I’m not going to do that again. He started meeting with a pastor for an accountability.
Anne: Okay for his “pornography addiction.” Did this pastor point out to you that this was abuse at all or was abuse ever mentioned during this time?
Missy: No, because unfortunately this pastor had his own hidden closet agenda. He actually was In some of his own personal sins in regards to something along the same lines.
That also came out within a year or two of this. I remember the first meeting we had with him. We just talked about why we were here and what we were hoping for, for counseling. He sat back and he leaned back in his chair and he said, Missy, this is nothing new under the sun.
This is very common, and I just remember immediately just feeling hot, and pretty much everything he said after that, I don’t even remember. We got out to the car, and I remember my husband looking at me and saying, Go ahead, I know you’re mad. I said, It’s not anything new, it’s not that big of a deal, but it is to me.
This is not right. He did counsel with him for a while, and I don’t remember anything beneficial ever coming out of that. And so then the next thing was, Covenant Eyes.
Feeling Alone & Responsible
Missy: Covenant Eyes entered our story. The biggest mistake that I made with Covenant Eyes was I became his accountability partner. Not good. That just became a cat and mouse game. Something would pop up in a report and he would blame it on spam or phishing. He opened up his email and it’s some ad on the side that’s triggering it.
It’s just constant. It was just a game. I can’t tell you how many times we went from flip phone to smart phone to flip phone to smart phone because he would get exhausted with the flip phone and say he’s fine. Then he went to a smartphone and he would fall and, seriously, we must have owned 10. It’s just disgusting how much money we probably threw away.
The last and final one we went to was Purity Boot Camp. It was at another church. He finished the boot camp, graduated, went to the next level of the boot camp. It was while he was at this boot camp that everything just fell completely apart.
Anne: During this pornography addiction recovery period of time, can you talk about what you did to try and establish safety and peace? Talk about during that time, how you’re, I’m sure making this effort, right, to love and serve and forgive and support him and whatever you need to do to help him with his addiction.
Nothing Is Working, You Are All Alone
Anne: When do you start kind of realizing this is not working? Or maybe you don’t, maybe you don’t realize it until it does fall apart. I don’t know. Talk about that.
Missy: I think it was a slow process. It erodes. I think it’s probably the best way to describe it. It erodes. It didn’t erode my faith in God, it eroded my faith in him.
I think it wasn’t necessarily the pornography that did it, it was the lies that it takes to keep the pornography alive. There’s a lot of lies, financial lies. Where were you, lies. The bus was “always late”, or traffic was always super heavy. He’d get home really late, hour, hour and a half past time.
That’s because he would pull over and watch porn. I don’t think I had peace.
Anne: Maybe peace is around the corner. If we go to this camp, maybe we’ll have peace. If we pray more, maybe we’ll have peace. Was it sort of that kind of place?
Missy: I think for a long time, it was this, we’re in this together, you’ve got this, let’s pray, let’s make sure that we’re being careful about what’s going to be on TV.
We downloaded apps like Common Sense Media that would take things out, swear words and scenes and as long as we kept your eye on the prize. A lot of my effort went into that, one of the faults that I realized I started doing was I got in the Holy Spirit’s way.
Trying To Help & Feeling Alone
As long as I created this perfect environment for him, you know, sun, moon, and stars, everything risen and aligned. Then he wouldn’t be stressed because that was one of the things he said. I don’t go look at pornography because I want to look at these women. Pornography started when I was 17 and it became this salve or this balm for rejection.
Anytime I feel rejected or stressed in my life, pornography won’t reject me. I’m going to go to it. I thought if I created this environment of perfection, then he wouldn’t do that. That’s why I say, I don’t think if I had peace, I was just constantly like running and keeping everything perfect and straight.
Anne: I view those reasons why they use porn, not as an actual reason, but as a way to manipulate us to make us feel sorry for them. There could be someone else who didn’t have peace as a kid and they didn’t look at porn. They don’t give you some sob story. You know what I mean? Now it’s, wow, I did not realize all the ways he elicited my compassion were not legitimate. It was actually him manipulating me into managing him and to feel sorry for him and not hold him accountable.
And it’s hard to recognize, to admit to ourselves, wow, we played into that manipulation rather than setting boundaries.
Missy: Absolutely. There were so many times that I would feel this compassion. He would be standing there, you know, talking about himself. What came on board in the midst of all this was a mental illness diagnosis.
Feeling Sorry For Him
So in the midst of all this came a suicide attempt, then several weeks at hospital for therapies and a diagnosis and medication.
Anne: Okay, this is also making you feel sorry for him, I’m sure.
Missy: Yes. He’s mentally ill. This is why he struggles. He’s weak. He needs me to step up to the plate. I’m going to have to, take on some of the stresses. Help with some of the finances and this kind of stuff. Keep the kids quiet. Don’t let them be too rowdy when he gets home from work. He needs things to be quiet. He doesn’t like things to be out of control or whatever. I didn’t have peace until I left.
Anne: Let’s talk about when things fall apart. You don’t recognize it’s abuse. You’re just doing the best you can. not feeling peace, but trying to get to safety. You’re trying to get help.
Then what happens when things fall apart? I’m guessing even when they fell apart, you didn’t exactly realize this is an abusive relationship, even in that moment. Let’s talk about how you get to that point where you recognize he’s an abuser. Start with the falling apart and then how you came to recognize it.
Missy: We had separated the first time with children. We had just gotten into a fight again about the pornography. There were just phenomenal, colossal lies. There were points where I would catch him in the act of something. I would focus on making him pay. Stand up and be accountable for what he had said or done, within this lie.
Lies & Blame
Missy: He would present evidence to the contrary, but then make me feel really bad. Like, are we going to struggle with this our entire life? I mean, for example, he had gone to a video store, rented some videos when I was gone. I saw the charge, asked about it. Why did he go to video store? We can rent movies on TV. Why’d you have to go to video store? He was like, I just wanted to get some Westerns. They remind me of my dad. I called the video store. Can I get a copy of this receipt?
No, we don’t do that. I called him back and I said, I need proof. You know where we’re at. I need proof that you’re not lying. He went to the video store. He came back with a handwritten receipt. I called, I said, I need to know. He gets me on the speakerphone with the company, the video store. The guy answers and he said, I just came in and got a paper receipt from you. Can you explain to my wife that you can’t send receipts or you can’t do receipts over the phone or anything like that?
He’s like, Yeah, ma’am, we can’t do any, we can’t do any of that. What I sent is what we got. I’m sitting there. He hangs up and he turns to me. Kids are crawling around us. Are we going to struggle with this our entire life? Are you just not ever going to trust me? I started crying. I felt bad. Am I so horrible that I can’t even trust him for the smallest thing? Am I gonna struggle?
Using Repentance To Manipulate
Missy: I found out that was a lie. He came clean with it and let me cry. He let me apologize to him, and they asked him to forgive me with the children crawling around us. But he knew it was a lie, and he forgave me.
Anne: That’s evil.
Missy: It is evil. So things like that kept happening and I finally had enough and we got into a just a giant fight about it. He found a roommate and left us just before Christmas. Just left.
I didn’t even know what to do. He cut us off financially because he had everything in his name and just left us. About, I would say, two months after he left he started realizing that, “I should have done this.” He stepped back in a few months and came to one of the visits with the kids. He claimed to have this Jesus moment and cried and begged my son to forgive him, begged me to forgive him, and promised that he was gonna do everything that he’s supposed to do. He wanted to come back home.
I said no. You don’t just get to come in here and say all the things you need to say and come back home. I’m gonna have to see real proof. He reinstalled Covenant Eyes and found two accountability partners. He went back to his group and was all in and I bought it.
Misapplied Christian Principles
Missy: I didn’t want the kids to grow up without a dad and he was showing repentance. I knew it was my place then to forgive and restore and step back in, step back up to the plate. We got back together and four months later. It was porn, again.
Anne: How do you feel about those sort of misapplied Christian principles forgiveness and love, and what do you wish you knew about those principles that was misapplied? Misapplied in this scenario that you didn’t know at the time?
Missy: I think one of the strongest ones that I do know is when this all blew up, and I just had my moments of anger and just having to throw things against the wall. One of the things that I was most angry with was, and here I’m just a good little Christian girl taking it. Feeling like I should take it because for better or for worse. I’m supposed to stand by him. This is the covenant that I made. It’s almost, I don’t know, self harming. It’s like, I chose him, so I have to put up with the abuse.
Anne: When do you start calling it abuse? When do you recognize that, wait a minute, all this porn, all these lies, all this gaslighting, This has not been, I mean, sure, he’s probably addicted to pornography, right? Sure, he’s addicted to these things, but this isn’t an addiction issue. This is an abuse issue. I have an abuser on my hands. When do you start recognizing, whoa, I’ve been looking at this through the wrong lens?
Missy: I think it did start to turn when he had that come to Jesus moment, supposedly, and how quickly he turned on and off his Jesus.
God Is There, You Are Not Alone
Anne: You start recognizing, wait a minute, this is grooming. This is not sincere repentance.
Missy: I remember saying one day when we had gone and had communion. I remember sitting there in communion, when I have communion it’s me and God. I’m just thinking and asking the Lord to help me, to remind me of things that I should repent of, just me and God. I don’t open my eyes. I don’t pay attention to what anybody else is doing. It’s just me. This moment I remember opening my eyes and looking at him.
He’s not, his head’s not even bowed, not even in the moment. He’s holding the cup. I remember asking him later, I said, what does communion mean to you? What does that symbolize to you? I said, do you realize that in that moment watching you not participate in communion, I realized in the 20 some years that we’ve been together that I’ve never seen you fall on your face.
Anne: When you say fall on your face, what do you mean by that?
Missy: It’s an act of submission. I’d never seen it.
Anne: Do you mean like completely totally submit himself to God’s will?
Missy: Not in our home. Not sometimes they’ll have altar calls. I just had not seen a genuine call. He got really mad when I said that, but it was things like that. Those were the evidences.
BTR: You Are Not Alone
Missy: I started to turn my head away from what was actually happening and watching all of the things he wasn’t saying. Those were the things that I realized in the moments when he would make me cry. He would get very ugly. He would sit there and tell me he liked to make me cry. It made him feel powerful. I would tell him, that’s really sick that you’re saying that. He didn’t want to be made to feel ugly that way, so if I cried, he would just leave.
He would leave the room. It started to become things like that. I started actually looking up, what is it? What does this mean? Why would someone treat you like this? I stumbled across Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I finally said to myself “You are not alone.”
Missy: I think like anybody, when you’re going through something, you’re looking for help. You’re looking for anything to guide you to the next step, because it’s all so confusing. There’s so much shame connected with it. It’s not, how do I make spaghetti sauce with friends or anything like that. You go incognito and do searches. I looked online and typed in different things. There were multiple helps out there, books.
You Are Not Alone
I happened to come across a video for a course that talked about pornography and trauma. It was the first time I had ever seen those two words put together. It was that word that actually drew me in to Betrayal Trauma Recovery No one else said that. Recognized, acknowledged that to go through this and to repeatedly go through it, basically almost alone, is traumatic.
Missy: You’re constantly questioned how you feel as a woman, as a mother, as a wife. It hits you on every level. I remember, it’s been a while, but remember watching the first two or three episodes. I remember feeling yes, yes, it acknowledged the pain, the shame and the betrayal. Finally feeling like, “You are not alone!” It acknowledged the true trauma of it too. To put the word trauma to it really opens you up and speaks of a pain that goes beyond what anybody has ever described before.
It’s almost like oh, well your spouse is looking at other women and it’s harmless. At least he’s, It’s coming home to you and it almost belittles it. It was so refreshing to have someone, for once, put the word to the pain that I already felt.
Missy: You know, I wish I could pinpoint exactly. It was several things. I remember delving into stories and reading, and I can’t remember if I actually clicked on a podcast, but I do remember there were stories that were told.
Recognizing Abuse
Anne: All of our podcast episodes are transcribed so that you can either listen to them on Apple podcasts, listen from our website or read them from our website. For people who would prefer to read, they’re there. After finding us, you started thinking about the word abuse. Was Betrayal Trauma Recovery also your first introduction to considering that what you had been experiencing was abusive?
Missy: Yeah, I think to actually hear it put that way, it’s also along the same lines as the trauma. It almost goes hand in hand. It helps you to realize that this is something that is happening to you and something that hurts you. I think we endure it, for better or for worse, so this falls under the worse part. You don’t really categorize it as abuse because who wants to admit, I’m abused, who wants to feel that way or think that way, or even accept the title.
Anne: Once you start considering that you’re abused and things are falling apart for you, what happens now?
Missy: I think actually the separation is what started me realizing that this was abusive. Once you actually step outside of looking at it. This is my bed. I need to sleep in it. You step outside of it and you realize that you’re being abused. You’re able to recognize all that follows from being abused and how it affects you. How it affects your children because of the decisions you make to make it work.
Waking Up To Being Alone
I definitely know that as I started waking up to the truth of what was going on, instead of it being, okay, I’m just going to stand by my man, I’m going to pray for him, I’m going to be that help that I’m supposed to be. To realizing I’m a being abused by this person. Through me, he’s also abusing our children because it’s giving a false narrative to what marriage is as God intended it to be.
Anne: Do you think that you would have been able to recognize the extent of the abusive behaviors had you not separated?
Missy: No, absolutely not.
Anne: Talk about why. I agree. After my ex got arrested, I had this period of no contact, that was when everything became very clear to me. I thought, if I wouldn’t have had that separation time, I don’t know if I ever would have recognized it. Will you talk about that for yourself? And how that period of separation helped you kind of come out of that fog?
Missy: Well, I think it’s probably indicative of all abuse victims. When you are in the abuse, you go into survival mode. You do what is necessary for the love of your family, your home, your children to make peace. In making that peace, you absorb the abuse, you take it. There isn’t healing. You can’t even look at healing or even look at what’s really happening to you when you’re just surviving.
Manipulative Apologies
Anne: Yeah. I think the other thing is when you’re being abused, you can’t see that you’re being abused. It’s kind of a catch twenty two, right? Because if they’re kind to you in a moment of grooming and they’re nice and they say they love you. That does not feel like abuse. That feels pretty good. It doesn’t feel like grooming at the time. It is grooming, but you don’t recognize it as part of the abuse.
You think, Oh, he’s Jekyll and Hyde. You don’t realize. The good guy is actually still the bad guy. Does that make sense?
Missy: Oh, absolutely. For you to say the phrase Jekyll and Hyde, I can’t even tell you how many times I use that phrase when I would talk to my friends or family about what would go on. They would see him at church or in social situations. He was so helpful and so like loving towards me and the kids. I would say that many times. I’m like, that’s, you know, Jekyll or Hyde. I don’t know which one’s the evil one. I don’t know.
That is many times how I described it, and what you said too, about not being able to recognize the abuse. I think when you’re being told by this person, oh I’m so sorry, I love you, I don’t mean to hurt you, I’ll do better next time, I recognize this isn’t good and I’m not easy to live with. Those were the things that I was told. That kind of almost puts it on me. When it’s so manipulative to tell somebody, I know I’m not easy to live with, you’re so loving, kind, forgiving and encouraging.
Grooming & Betrayal
It puts it back on you. I need to be more loving. I need to be more encouraging and you get to be a monster.
Anne: It’s also very misogynistic because the wife is to sacrifice her happiness, her needs, her interests, her whatever, in order to make sure that he’s a decent person. That’s just crazy. So what happens next?
Anne: I’m assuming, tell me if I’m wrong here, that he starts to groom again while you’re Separated here because we see one of two things when women set a boundary. They separate and they get one of two things. They start grooming. Oh, I’m gonna be better. I’m, sorry I’ll get into a program, you know something like that. Or they just literally give up and abandon their family and don’t try to do anything. I’m guessing it was one of those two things. Maybe I’m wrong. I can’t wait to hear.
Missy: I actually had a mixture of the two at first. It was abandonment in finances and it was abandonment in just spending time with the kids. I was spinning my wheels like, okay, we need to make sure we get together and the kids want to see you.
It would be him who, you know, he had headaches, stomachache, he was tired. The week was too long and you know, the kids were desperate to want to connect with him. And then when he would call to talk to them. He would call maybe once a month and I would mention something to him. Hey, you know, like probably should call the kids like every other day.
Relationships With Children
Missy: Like you’re not here. He said, he actually had audacity to say that he doesn’t like calling them because they barely seem interested in talking to him.
Anne: Because it was all about him. Is that what you’re saying?
Missy: Right. Yeah.
Anne: Oh, yeah. Because they’re not asking him about how his day was.
Missy: Right. He said they don’t talk to me, they don’t answer my questions, they don’t seem interested in talking to me. It just feels like a waste of my time. I remember I came back with, this isn’t about you, you’re supposed to be asking them about their day, how they’re doing, what’s going on, this isn’t supposed to be fulfilling for you. It’s you showing that you’re interested in their life as a father, and you’re trying to be there in any way you can.
Anne: Yeah, they don’t have the capacity to understand that, I don’t think.
Missy: No, then he would vacillate between the two. I didn’t know which one I was going to get, to be honest. There would be times when, as long as he didn’t feel slated by me in any way. Things were fine and child support would come and helping with shoes and school and this kind of stuff would come.
I stepped on his toes wrong and then he just would go. Turn like a spoiled child and not speak to me and not help with money. It was continuously abusive and manipulative, even though we were separated.
Anne: Post separation abuse is really common. I wouldn’t say it’s really common, I’d say it’s the norm.
Divorce Decision & Feeling Alone
Anne: A lot of people will say, all you need to do when you have an abuser is to get divorced. They don’t realize that there is ongoing abuse even after divorce or during a separation. That’s very difficult.
When did you make the decision that you were going to get divorced?
How did you make that decision, right? Because that’s a very difficult decision for a Christian woman who has been trying to “help her husband” for all these years. Let’s talk about all those factors.
Missy: I didn’t come by it easy. That’s absolutely for sure. I think it probably, we separated twice, was from the point that I first separated to the point that I knew that I was done was about three years. There was quite a bit of just being so unsure. One of the things that I brought up numerous times with different people that I took counsel with was that I don’t want to be displeasing to God. I know that I’ve made this covenant.
What do I do with this covenant, this promise that I made? Oh, that just tore me up.
Anne: Was there a way that you resolved that? How are you feeling about that now?
Missy: Yeah, well, my story is a little bit different in the fact that it just didn’t end with him constantly being abusive with pornography and being narcissistic or anything like that. My story ends with, at the time that I found this out, we had already been separated for a solid year, but I definitely was on the path to divorce.
Husband’s Behavior A Nightmare
I will admit pre finding out what I found out, we had made the decision between us because we didn’t want to drag the kids through a court process. We didn’t want to bring the government into our life and our children’s lives. We had decided to stay separated until the kids were of age and then divorce then. I figured we could make this work between us, figure out finances between us.
I really think that 99 percent of that was going to be me giving a lot, out of love for my kids. He really was a nightmare. I mean, there were months when we just decided not to do visitation because he would have mental meltdowns and mental temper tantrums.
You know he didn’t want to come to church and the kids wanted him at church. It was always something with him. He was such a child. I dreaded. Visitation weekends because I knew I would just have to put up with him until it was over and there after it was over I always had a headache. I wouldn’t allow him to come to our home because the home that we had before we separated was just not right. The atmosphere was not right and I knew it was him.
I wanted a space where the children were secure and safe and that being our home. I’d never allowed him to come to our home. All of our visitations were at a restaurant or movie or park or something like that.
When I Recognized, You Are Not Alone
Anne: If you could go back in time, do you feel like that? Let’s not involve people, let’s just try to settle this between ourselves was a bad idea? Would you do that again? Or were you like it was okay. It turned out okay, or were you like man, I should have just gone for it back then. What are you thinking about that now?
Missy: I will say there’s a lot of elements of bringing in help that I had a lot of preconceived ideas about.
Anne: Talk about that.
Missy: I really believed CPS was evil, to be honest.
Anne: For our listeners who don’t know, she’s talking about Child Protective Services, which is a government agency. That is supposed to protect kids, but we have heard some horror stories. Yeah, I know what you’re talking about.
Missy: Right, I really believed that. I’m going to invite the bad guy in and this is going to be horrible. Of course I was mortified and I didn’t ask for them. Once we proceeded, the way we had to proceed, she was assigned to me. There were a lot of things that I’m now looking back at where I see they happened the way they had to happen. I can’t sing her praises enough. She has been as close to a friend as she can be because of her professional position.
Anne: So you went from thinking that CPS was evil and you were terrified of them to being very grateful for their help.
Missy: Absolutely, she jumped right in and I mean, she knew the games almost like the back of her hand. She had resources available to alleviate those places and offered them before I asked for them.
Fear Of Government Agencies Kept Me Alone
Anne: Why do you think victims are so afraid to get help from the police, for example, or from a government agency, CPS, maybe a domestic violence shelter, or maybe other various and sundry agencies. Why do you think victims are so afraid?
Missy: To be totally brutally honest, I really believe it’s because we definitely don’t feel like the government has your back if you are a believer.
Anne: I’m a believer and I have never thought that. That’s why I’m asking. I’ve been a believer my whole life and I’ve always been very pro-government. I don’t know if I’d say pro-government, but I’ve always thought, I can call the police. The police will help me. I can go to this agency, this agency will help me. For me, I did not have that experience. From your experience, that’s what you’re saying. Growing up you thought, this isn’t a good idea. They’re not going to help me.
Missy: I think to understand where I come from in that capacity, my parents did foster care my entire life from the time I was 13, all the way up. We had a lot of, social workers coming in and out of our home. A lot of experience, of course, listening to your parents and dealing with the social workers. To be really honest, we’d never had a really great experience with social workers.
Then my only experience with CPS workers were because of relatives that struggled with addictions and had children taken from them. That’s on the complete opposite end from where I was coming. In a way it was probably a little bit naive, thinking that they’re just going to make things harder.
Civil Court: You’re Not Alone
Missy: So I actually took my husband to civil court for two purposes. One was to gain physical and legal custody of my kids. The other was to impose child support. I remember when I was appointed a guardian ad litem for the kids, because she was going to interview us and talk to us, them separately, then me and then my ex. She was going to give recommendations to the court in regards to the civil case. I remember also feeling fear.
Oh my goodness, like, can I be who I am? Can I speak freely of my faith? Will she deem my faith as crazy and side with my ex? Because I know there are some people that don’t believe in a deity. Of course I struggled with that. Again, she ended up being wonderful.
Anne: That did not end up being the case.
Missy: Not even close.
Anne: That being said, I’ve never been afraid, but I have heard some horror stories. Like a guardian ad litem who made it worse or a custody evaluator. I have heard horror stories, but I’ve also heard really great stories. I think it feels like a crapshoot.
Husband’s Betrayal & Abuse
Anne: I’m like, pray, pray, pray, right? For God to be with your lawyer, to get the right guardian ad litem, to get the right custody evaluator. Let God be the warrior because the family court system is really tricky.
Missy: It is tricky and so far I feel blessed in that capacity.
Anne: That’s so great. Part of what I’m wondering, and the reason why I’m bringing this up, is this fear of outside help. I’m wondering if it’s part of the way that the abusers isolate their victims to say the outside world, perhaps the government, perhaps agencies, perhaps whatever is evil and they’re scary and you don’t want to get help from them.
You don’t have anywhere to go. Do you think that was part of it a little bit?
Missy: Oh, absolutely. I remember when we would talk about getting a divorce, we would talk about a divorce and he would bring up stuff like that. He wanted me to be alone. They’re going to pull our kids in one direction and another direction. If I dare bring up anything about the pornography, they’re going to label him a pervert and like just all these different things.
Right away, of course, if you bring anything up that has any impact on the kids, that’s going to resonate with me. Being afraid of asking them for help, I wasn’t afraid when we had to go to the police. That was a knee jerk reaction, I knew it was going to be okay when I talked to them.
Pending Situations & Encouragement
Anne: Missy has some situations that she can’t talk about right now because they’re pending. If you’re thinking, is there something going on that we didn’t hear about or that we don’t know, the answer to that is yes. We can’t talk about it now.
Missy: Well, I think if anything I probably would want to talk about is that if you are sitting on that cusp and you definitely don’t know which way to turn, you feel all alone. You feel full of shame because your husband has repeatedly abused you with porn, that you are not alone.
That there are other women out there, there are people who do care, and you don’t have to sit in the dark by yourself. More than anything, in the darkest times that I had, it may sound cliche, and it may sound hard, and it may feel weird in the beginning but you have a father. You don’t have to talk in thees and thous, and you don’t have to have all the right words to say. He is your Father, you can go to him, tell him how awful this is, how much it hurts you, and how much you need him.
Faith & Medications
One of the verses that I clung to many, many times was he heals the brokenhearted and he binds up their wounds. I can’t tell you how many times I prayed and I asked him to heal this part of me that was broken. Heal the part of me that sees myself as a failure, that feels ugly and unattractive. Jealous of these women who get their attention and he looks at them in a way that he doesn’t look at you.
You can ask your Father to help you heal that part, to bind up the wound that is caused from that. Whether you’ll choose to admit it or not, every time that they take you there. Whether you find out or whether you don’t, or you just suspect something is wrong. Your Father’s there and He can hear those and He can bind them. He can pull you close and you are not alone. You are not alone.
Anne: I appreciate you saying that there have been so many times where I have cried and I haven’t been able to stop crying. You’ve probably had that experience too, right? Currently speaking, maybe my listeners have heard it in my voice lately, but I’m on Lexapro. It’s an anti-anxiety, anti-depressant medication. I’m a little less emotional lately, so I don’t tear up at all when I’m on this. Normally, I’d be like, I know how you feel.
Feeling Alone & Grief
I’m the same. I felt that way too. Right now, because of the medication that I’m on, I can’t cry. I remember when I would cry and cry, could not stop, go in my closet, lay in my bed and my pillow would be soaking wet. I remember not being able to feel comfort from the Spirit and praying, Heavenly Father, please help me.
Please send someone to help me. Feeling this black void of nothingness. I kept praying, reading my scriptures, obeying the commandments and believing. Even though I believe, help Thou my unbelief sort of thing. The fog did move eventually.
Missy: You know what that is though? Those are layers of grief. That’s why they feel that way. It’s just layers upon layers of grief. You’re not going to feel anything while those layers fall off except grief. It’s a part of the healing process. We mistakenly think God is not near. It’s not that’s not true. It’s grief. You are not alone.
Anne: I haven’t thought of it that way before. That is a good point. I do know, even though I didn’t know to call it grief, that the only way was through it, you couldn’t avoid it. You couldn’t get around it. You could watch TV and you could eat popcorn, which helped, but really there wasn’t anything that could make it go away.
Missy: No, because all of those are distractions. Our kids can distract us. Our friends can distract us. The TV can distract us. Our phone can distract us. But you take all of those away. Everybody goes to bed. TV gets turned off, there’s nothing on your phone that you haven’t looked at a bazillion times, and then you’re in the dark and you’re alone.
Medication & Anxiety
Anne: Yes, and it is awful. With me, when things have been really difficult, it’s so stressful. Medication has helped. I don’t have anything clinical going on. The year that it was so stressful, I was on medication. I have something going on right now. It’s also really stressful. When I talk about it with my doctor, under doctor’s supervision, decided to go back on an anti anxiety medication.
It’s a catch twenty two for me because I still can feel emotion. It’s not as deeply, so I’m very like content and happy and calm most of the time, which is great. There’s not that level of, I don’t know, depth of gratitude that I have felt in the past and emotion. As soon as I make it through this, I’m going to go back off.
Missy: I felt the same way. Like it, was actually really explained pretty well to me, is that when you go through years and years of abuse. Your body learns to run on this flight or fight process, constantly. Then when you have peace, like I did when I finally moved away and had my own space, the peace was just as painful because now my body is still going fight or flight. I would have anxiety attacks. I would pull up to church and be unable to get out of the car.
Anxiety, I Just Felt So Alone
Missy: My kids would go running in. They had their classes. They were excited. I would sit in my car and cry. My family would come out just concerned and I couldn’t tell them anything except this is anxiety. I’m having a full on anxiety attack and I can’t stop this.
I have to just go through this and it was so hard because I could tell they look at you like you’re a little bit nuts, like they’re concerned about you. You’re losing it. I’m concerned, but unless you’ve been on this side of an anxiety attack, you can’t understand, it’s such an out of body experience too.
Anne: Did you ever take or consider anxiety meds?
Missy: It’s a plant based supplement. It absolutely helps. Yes.
Anne: For us, it’s like, whatever helps. There was a time when I decided I’m not where I was a couple of years ago when I was going through a difficult time. I mean, you, my listeners have heard me go in and out of difficult times this whole time and I thought, should I go back on medication? I thought, no, I shouldn’t right now. Right now I need to feel this. This is the time where I need to experience this. This recent one, I definitely was nope, I need to go back on it.
There’s no judgment here. It’s, whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. Self care, so that you can take care of your children, your job, your life, and being gentle with ourselves to make sure that we are healthy. It’s super important when we’re going through this. God loves us will guide and direct you.
Victims, You Are Not Alone
Missy: Yeah, I definitely think that going along with being gentle with yourself about medication is to be brave enough not necessarily to physically walk away. Because, I don’t know, you might get mad and walk away. In this season you’re gonna be hit with loads of advice on how to handle it, how to walk it, how to process it and how it affects your kids. I remember the one phraseology which to this day will set me on fire is to not be a victim and don’t teach your children to be a victim.
You remember that character where he’s got flame shooting out of the top of his head? That sets me on fire because to me, whether you like to acknowledge it or not, we are victims.
Anne: Yes.
Missy: We’re victims. I’m sorry that that makes life uncomfortable for you, and you don’t like to think about the things that we’ve been through, but we are victims. We don’t live the life of a victim. We don’t look for ways that things are going so bad for us. We’re not looking to walk around like Eeyore and woe is me and everything bad that’s happening to me.
We are processing through the pain and suffering. Healing from what has happened. Seriously, it sets me on fire when people say that
Anne: I could not agree more You’re like I’m not acting like a victim. I am a victim.
Missy: Yes. I know it’s meant well. I think the hardest thing for some people is it’s as hard to watch someone go through a tragedy and whether they’ll say it or not. Yes, and you are not alone.
Moving Past The Betrayal & You Are Not Alone
I really believe it’s generational in a way where it’s like, we don’t want that to touch our life. It’s too hard, ugly. It’s uncomfortable. We really just want you to get better and move on.
Anne: I think it’s also a control thing. They can tell you, Hey, you got to do something about this. But when you’re an actual victim, there is obviously a lack of ability to stop the harm. The only thing you can do is try to separate yourself from it. You could build a big wall around you. You could do all these things and the person can still act abusively toward you. For those of us who set a ton of boundaries. Our abuser is still abusive. There’s nothing we can do to stop them from being abusive. You just feel so alone, but you’re not alone.
All we can do is try to protect ourselves the best we can. I don’t think other people can wrap their heads around that. I think they think, well, eventually, they won’t bug you anymore. Or you can just pretend like they don’t exist or something. You’re like, no, if someone’s punching you in the face all the time, you’re going to have a bruise.
This is an interesting thing. I like it when people are like, well, now that you know what it is, when they hurt you, you can just like get better faster. You can be like, that was just abuse. No big deal. They’re an abuser, whatever.
Setting Boundaries With BTR’s Help, You Are Not Alone
Anne: If someone punches you in the face, The bruise is going to take however long it’s going to take to heal. You can’t say to the bruise, hey bruise heal faster. I know that he was crazy when he punched me in the face. The bruise is going to take faster to heal. No, it’s just going to take the amount of time it is to heal. Even if you’re divorced, even if you’ve set all these boundaries.
If there’s a traumatic incident that happens with your ex. During a parenting exchange or a court case, they’re lying. They say things that aren’t true or something, It’s like a punch to the gut. You’ve got a bruise, it’s going to take some time to heal.
The cool thing is the more confident we get, the better we get at setting boundaries, the more we understand what’s happening. I do think we become a little bit like, Superheroes, and we can heal a little bit faster, which is cool, but we still have to heal.
Missy: Right, and we get better at being able to, block those mental and emotional punches, because we now recognize them. I think that goes back to what you and I talked about before, when you get space, you get clarity. And you start to see, what does the Bible say? Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay. You actually really start to see those clearly, especially when they speak now.
Anne: Yeah, I agree. This is the one, it’s been five years. he’s a jerk. I don’t know why.
You Are Not Alone
Missy: That goes all back to it’s these stigmas that come with relationships and with divorce and with what everybody believes is how it’s supposed to go. The fact that it makes people uncomfortable. I really am going to dig in because like I said, my story goes a little bit deeper. I definitely believe that there needs to be something out there on what is the next step.
What do I do? How do I get through this, get up the next day, get up the next morning? How do I make it through that afternoon? Because sometimes it literally is all you can do to do the next five minutes. You’re in so much pain.
Missy: I’m so thankful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because there is healing in coming together. I think there’s going to be more and more women that are going to become more brave. To be able to come together and meet each other in a way that we all have great friends. You are not alone. I have phenomenal friends, but to have someone and look in the eyes of someone that knows. There’s healing in that too.
Anne: The other thing I appreciate about the community is that We’re all learning collectively, right? Like when you said that’s a layer of grief, I was like, oh, I hadn’t thought about it that way before. And because we’re talking about it and we’re honest with each other and we’re being vulnerable with each other, collectively, we’re able to learn more quickly. We are not alone.
Generational Silence & Wisdom
Anne: I think back in the forties and fifties when there wasn’t an internet. If women tried to reach out, it was probably pretty hard for them. It wasn’t common for a woman to be like, hey, my husband’s looking at porn, help me. I mean, there was part of society you didn’t really tell. I mean, I’ve talked to many victims who were perhaps in their early seventies or late sixties and they didn’t tell anybody.
For a long time, now they’re able to talk to people about it. They could only learn in this isolated silo and they knew, okay, this doesn’t work. Collectively now, as we speak the truth, as we’re vulnerable with each other, with safe people, that’s the cool thing. We don’t have to be vulnerable with our abusers, but we can be vulnerable with each other, collectively. Yes, you are not alone.
We are learning so much and becoming so much more enlightened, I guess, and safe. I am going to use the word powerful, and when I say that I don’t mean that we’re like trying to take over the world. But I mean like own our own power and our own voice and be able to say, Wait, I know what to do. I know how to do it. I can do this.
Miss y It’s biblical. To bear one another’s burdens indicates the ability to do it. So you can’t bear a burden if you’re weak, and it’s not physical strength we’re speaking of. You know, so yeah, I think there’s power in that too. Absolutely. I know there’s a scripture and I can’t think of it, but where it talks about the fact that we’re supposed to speak truth. Exactly, you are not alone.
You Are Not Alone: Join The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community
I’ve heard this phrase many times, The church is supposed to be a hospital for the broken. I believe the church is where two or more are gathered together, that there’s healing there. I really appreciate that you said that about the ladies who kept quiet their entire life, you know what, I really believe that they believed in their mind that it was their fault. That’s abusive too.
Anne: Well, and now the cool thing is. We have so many women, various ages, right? In the community, in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group or ones that I’ve talked to who are in their sixties or seventies or however old they are, whatever, you know, all different ages. We have 30 year olds and 20 year olds and you know, everyone, but I really appreciate the wisdom of the women who bore it alone for a long time. They’re sharing, they’re really strong. You are not alone.
Missy: Yeah, I would love to listen to that and to hear their story. Did they stay? Did they not stay? How that went for them. I bet you there are some huge nuggets of wisdom.
Anne: Yeah. Speaking of that, if you’re listening and you’re like, that was me, I didn’t speak out and I finally found Betrayal, Trauma Recovery, or I finally told somebody when I was in my late sixties or early seventies or eighties or whatever age you are, if that’s you, we’d love to hear your story.
You Are Not Alone Anymore
Missy: I just wanted to make sure you are not alone. I really do believe that you might feel like you’re betraying your husband to speak to someone about your betrayal. That’s okay. You can talk about it. It’s not betraying your husband.
Anne: Yeah. In fact, it’s helping your husband because it’s accountability. It’s speaking truth.
Missy: Absolutely.
Anne: Truth is painful sometimes. Truth is hard. Truth Might lead us down a road that makes, it seem like it’s more difficult. I believe it always leads to more peace in the end, even if it gets harder before it gets better.
Missy: I cannot sing that praise hard enough. I will tell you the last two years have been hard. They’ve been hard financially, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. They have been so hard. I will take that over one more day living the lie. I would, in a heartbeat because now at least the hard is normal. You know, it’s just a normal hard and I’m okay with that.
Missy: Right. I’ll take this. It’s so much more peaceful than when you’re living this chaotic lie and there’s so much chaos and there’s so much manipulation. You just feel so alone.
There’s so much lying that goes on for pornography to exist. It’s, it’s meant to be that way, a destroyer of the home. It’s like a invisible tornado constantly happening.
Seeing The Betrayer’s Manipulation
My ex would play head games with the kids. He would get them in this manipulation mode so that what he was doing could seem less heinous.
Like he would get, you know, Oh, they’re such awful kids. They’re so disrespectful. They don’t respect me. They don’t listen to me. Then I find out a year down the road that my son had gotten after him twice because he found pornography on his phone. Those two had animosity between each other all the time.
I couldn’t understand it. Then I asked my son, but he was too young at the time to even put the two together. I would say son, why are you so disrespectful to your dad? Why when I ask you to do something it’s, yes ma’am, and you’re helpful and you’re thoughtful, and when your dad asks you the gloves come off.
He would do the same thing. He would say, that kid’s so disrespectful. You spoil him. It was always our fault. Then you come to find out he confronted him a couple of times and told him, don’t you dare tell your mom. He left his phone on the bed with stuff open and he would come in and he would turn it off and go hand it to his dad. He would say, you shouldn’t be looking at that.
Like I said, I’ll take the two years that it’s been, the hard, hard that it’s been when I didn’t know if I’d have two nickels to rub together. I’ll take that any day. Than living a lie.
You Are Not Alone, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Is Here For You
Anne: I appreciate her strength and her bravery and her willingness to share her story. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. Hopefully this helped you if you’re going through this, so you don’t feel alone.
Missy: Thank you for having me, it was when I found BTR that I said, you are not alone.
How To Recognize Victim Blaming – Jenna’s Story
Jul 23, 2024
Victim blaming is an insidious form of abuse in and of itself. In the betrayal trauma community, abusers, clergy, therapists, and others blame victims for “their part” in the betrayal and abuse they experience at the hands of their partners. Recognizing victim blaming is an essential skill in the toolkit of every victim.
Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily in every time zone and offers women the unique opportunity to process trauma, share their stories, ask important questions, and express hard feelings in a safe place.
Victim Blaming Is Harmful To Women
“We see time and time again women thinking: If I would have done something differently, if I looked different this wouldn’t have happened to me.”
Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery
When women are blamed by abusive partners, family, friends, and professionals for their partner’s abusive and compulsive behaviors, there can be deeply harmful effects.
Because victims are conditioned to be compliant, many internalize false and harmful claims and begin to blame themselves. Furthermore, those close to the victim have the unique opportunity to help and support her. When they choose to blame her, overtly or covertly, they are enabling the abuser and putting the victim into harm’s way.
What Does Victim Blaming Look Like?
Wonder if you have experienced victim blaming? Here are some common statements that indicate that others are blaming you for the abuse and betrayal.
How have you contributed to your husband’s infidelity?
If you make yourself more available, he wouldn’t need to act out.
If you take care of yourself a little more, he would be more interested.
You need to be a safe person, so he won’t lie to you.
Anne: I have Jenna on today’s episode, she’s a member of our community. And she follows us on social media. We have accounts on Instagram @btr.org_ we’re on Facebook. You can see our page if you search betrayal trauma recovery. We’re also on YouTube at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and TikTok @btr.org.
Online Encounter with Misogynistic Advice
Anne: Jenna has been seeing a lot of misogynistic advice. That’s actually common, and people don’t realize it’s misogynistic. She’s not seeing it on our social media accounts, of course, but other therapists or so-called experts. Also from family and friends, so she contacted me because she wanted to talk about this harmful advice. That she hears both on social media and in real life. Welcome.
Can you talk about how this topic became important to you?
https://youtube.com/shorts/f42gMRWCYd8
Realization of Victim Blaming Language
Jenna: I had never noticed it before, because it was so normal.
I had heard these phrases or words. terminology used quite often. So I never stopped to think about the way words are used, or how we talked about women in our everyday language was actually very damaging to women.
I had a friend point it out, so I thought it would make a good conversation, because maybe there are other people who haven’t realized that yet.
Anne: I think it’s interesting that it’s not just men who use this type of language. It’s women too.
Jenna: Right. I mean, I still catch myself using terms or phrases or making assumptions about other women. I’m catching myself and trying to shift how I speak.
Anne: Can you state the specific example that brought this to your attention on Facebook?
Jenna: There were a couple.
Personal Experience: Happy Wife, Happy Life
Jenna: One of them was, “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” The one that was personal to me was, “A happy wife. Happy life.” Because that one was actually shared the night before my wedding. At the rehearsal dinner. My then father in law gave a toast, and he shared his advice to my then husband. The only thing he had to share was “Happy wife, happy life”.
That was it. At the time, I laughed, and everyone kind of laughed. And I never stopped to think that just seemed off. Throughout our marriage. I felt like my husband had that mindset, but it wasn’t authentic. Of I want to live in a way that we can both be happy, comfortable, and safe, but it was like whatever I can get away with as long as you’re happy is okay.
If I can just fake it, if I can just put on this facade, if we can just keep women placated and hide these things that we’re doing, then it’s okay to do them.
Anne: Wow. That’s so good. Absolutely. Sort of like what a woman doesn’t know won’t hurt her kind of idea, as long as she’s happy.
As long as she’s happy, I can do whatever I want. Like, I know what I’m doing would make her miserable. So I need to make sure to hide it from her.
Heaven forbid she is justifiably angry about my betrayal of her. Before we go back to hell, hath no fury like a woman’s scorn. Cause I want to talk about that.
Misogynistic Victim Blaming Statements
Anne: I just want to list the misogynistic victim blaming that many women hear when they find out their husband has been lying or having an affair, when you can’t trust your husband. So I’m just going to list some of them out really quick. “What did you do to cause your husband to seek love and comfort outside your marriage?”
So that’s blaming her for his affair or his. Untoward behavior. Something like “if you make yourself more available, he wouldn’t need to get it somewhere else.”
“If you take care of yourself a little more, he wouldn’t need to get stimulated elsewhere.”
“You need to be a safe person, so he won’t lie to you.” As if it’s your fault that he’s lying to you. “If you would forgive him and stop being so angry, everything would be fine. You’re the reason things are falling apart,” instead of his abuse, is the reason things are falling apart. And. “Why did you stay? If he’s abusive?” You’re like, because I didn’t know he was abusive. I was trying to figure it out. Or “I would have never put up with that.”
You don’t want to put up with abuse either, you are resisting every way you know how you’ve been resisting since day one. You just didn’t know what you were dealing with.
Hell Hath No Fury Like a Woman Scorned
Anne: So those are some pretty common victim blaming statements, so now let’s get back to “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” Is that Shakespeare?
Jenna: William Congreve, an English playwright and poet, the quote reads, “No hell hath fury like a woman scorned.”
Anne: Let’s talk about this.
Anne: Apparently there’s no justification for a woman’s anger. I would argue that if a woman wasn’t angry, sad, or upset, her husband lied to her and cheated on her, she’s wondering if her husband is toxic. That’s coercion. So it would be strange if she didn’t have a pretty intense reaction to that. Because women are humans.
They’re not robots. And so a logical, absolutely justifiable reaction would be feeling extremely upset. Angry. Ecetera Anyone would feel that way. He severely harmed her, she thought he cared about her.
In this case, she’s the one feeling the bowels of hell gave after her. Hell hath no fury, like what a woman feels when her husband betrays her is how the saying should go. I mean, do people expect women to be robots and not to feel justifiable, anger, and rage? When their husband made choices that he knows will hurt her. And that’s why he’s kept it hidden.
Jenna: Right. There’s no room for women to be human.
Double Standards in Anger
Anne: Think about a man. If he told a story where a business partner lied to him and manipulated him. If he’d been showing anger, everyone would think his anger was justified.
In fact, I told a therapist in the addiction recovery industrial complex. I said, “Imagine if your business partner cheated and lied and you were telling the story, would anyone ask you, were you safe enough for him to tell you the truth that he was embezzling money?”
You got angry with him, no wonder he was embezzling money. You weren’t safe enough. He was like, that’s a completely different thing. And I was like, uh, no, it’s not. It’s the same thing, only with a wife, it’s worse. I thought like, okay, so you are a misogynist.
Victim Blaming Phrases and Their Impact
Jenna: I hear it a lot of times, almost used sarcastically to provoke humor, you know, used maybe facetiously or in a way that mocks women, as it implies that women are emotional and that’s not acceptable or appropriate.
It’s almost like their pain or anger is mocked, as women, in general, like emotion that women feel is comical in some way.
Anne: It’s overreacting, it’s nonsensical, their expectation of women being robots is the nonsensical thing. That is nonsensical. That is what should be mocked. Like, Oh, so you think women should just sit still and look pretty. So in your thinking about this, did you come up with some other things that you’ve seen?
Jenna: I did. I started to make a list of things that came to mind, and I just jotted a few of them down, and I’ll just read them off.
Common Misogynistic Statements
Jenna: “Boys will be boys.” “Wear the pants in the relationship.” I think that one’s often used when people talk about a woman with a strong personality, or who just has opinions and speaks them, and is not quiet all the time. I’ve heard “She wears the pants in the relationship.” “She’s crazy.”
“You’re too intense, too loud, too bossy. Women are impossible to understand. If mama ain’t happy, no one is.”
Expectations of Respect and Accountability
Jenna: And this is just a general observation, but I’ve noticed that when we as women want or even demand accountability and respect. We often get the label that we’re man haters or bitter women, when in reality we’re not.
Men take responsibility for their actions, and that we are treated with respect.
Anne: Yeah, it’s not that much to ask. To say that a woman expects respect and fidelity in her marriage, and not be lied to, manipulated and abused, that’s a pretty low bar.
Jenna: It is. And it’s common. I mean, if you think about how often people mock Have you even seen on the BTR posts people mocking the idea of fidelity or expecting a husband to not use pornography? That is so often just people almost think it’s a joke. Like wait, you’re asking your husband not to look at it, like who do you think you are or you know all men do this. You would think it would be basic, but it’s not
Before I married. In my late twenties, I was still single. I remember my mom saying, “You have these super high expectations”. What do you want from a man? As if like, I couldn’t, there’s no, man. That could fill your expectations. And I remember telling her mom. It’s pretty simple. I just want someone I want to call.
When they call me, I’m happy they called. It’s not that complex. This is before I understood addiction or abuse or anything like that. I feel the same way about this. Men are trying to say. Men and some women are trying to say. That women’s reasonable, normal expectations are too much.
Lowering Standards for Women’s Treatment Perpetuates Victim Blaming
Jenna: We’ve really lowered the bar. I feel like the bar for how women are treated has been lowered in so many ways.
Anne: To the point where it’s like, you can’t expect them to be faithful. You can’t expect them to tell the truth unless apparently you’re perfect. You have to be a Stepford Wife robot to merit a man to be faithful to you. Otherwise, if you do or say anything that someone could construe as not the right thing, then you could get blamed for this.
Jenna: Right. It’s like it gives the man permission to act in abusive ways. If you’re not that robot.
Anne: I think the most common is when men say, yeah, she was controlling, she was crazy. She just asked me a ton of questions. That seems like a very red flag for an abuser. Anytime a man claims he was abused, it is a red flag that he was an abuser himself. Why do you think that is?
Jenna: Well, abusers. In their very nature, they are always trying to put on a show, on a face for other people. They always want to be perceived as the victim, and they’re good at manipulating the situation to, you know, deny, attack, reverse the victim and the offender. So they use truth and twist it. They are pros at victim blaming.
Abusers Use DARVO To Blame The Victim
They turn it against the victim to confuse the victim. They try to put the victim and the offender on the same even playing ground. I feel like they do that to try to minimize their abuse. Then create this illusion that the reaction of the victim is abuse. When it’s not.
Anne: Right. If a woman is concerned and worried, and she’s just found out her husband is using pornography, and she’s wondering if he is having an affair. Her motivation is safety, peace, and truth. So if she’s trying to look and see what he’s got going on on his phone, it’s because she’s desperate for safety.
She’s desperate for truth. Whereas if an abuser is going through his victim’s phone, he is looking for ways to manipulate her or harm her.
Jenna: Yeah, so you described it exacty how it is.
Shifing Blame By Labeling Her As Controlling
Victims get blamed by someone asking, “Why are you so controlling?” I got that a lot. But the reality was, I was doing those things to try to create. safety for myself to exist in a safe way. It was not, my intent was not to gain power over anyone. It was just to feel comfortable and safe in my own home.
Whereas, he used that against me to hide his own behaviors and deceive me.
I think this is where many victims of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion get tripped up. They might watch like a popular narcissist. YouTube channel, for example.
In that YouTube channel, somebody might say, okay, here are seven things that narcissists do. And as you listen to them, you might think, Oh, I’ve done that. I have tried to isolate my abuser from his flying monkey family, because every time we get around his family, I end up more abused.
Because they believe him and they end up putting me down, and so am I the narcissist or the abuser? In one popular narcissist video that I recently saw, the Youtuber was suggesting that a narcissist can never answer this question. Why is it so difficult for you to admit your flaws?
Abusers Manipulating the Narrative To Blame The Victim
And supposedly, if you ask a narcissist this question, and they can’t answer it, then it’s proof that they’re a narcissist.
And that might be the case. But in an abuse situation, if an abuser asks his victim, why is it so hard for you to admit your flaws? He’s gas lighting her, so what I looked at it but why is it so hard for you to admit your flaws?
That would be a question an abuser would ask a victim to trip her up, and many of these YouTube channels on narcissists. If you don’t interpret what they’re saying correctly, then you might think, well, am I the narcissist? I don’t think I would answer that question, because he’s asked me that.
And I’m like, uh, what are you talking about? Like you just cheated on me and you just lied to me for 20 years. Now you’re asking me what my flaws are, excuse me. In that moment, a victim shouldn’t play into that. A victim should not say, “Oh, you’re right. You’re right. I didn’t do the dishes. So I deserve to be lied to.”
Like no, no, no, no.
Jenna: Yeah, this victim blaming statement stood out to me. “Why do my differences threaten you?” I think maybe it’s not worded like that, but I think that general sentiment is often used. Like, why do my hobbies, you know, maybe like explicit content or these inappropriate games or books or whatever it may be, comics, video games. It’s totally victim blaming.
Seeking Safety and Truth
“Why do my hobbies or why do the things I like to do, why do they threaten you? Why do you feel threatened by me looking at this photo?” I think one’s really misused against victims often.
Anne: Yeah, so if you have watched some of these, I would say popular narcissist videos on YouTube, and you’re thinking, am I the narcissist?
Anne: Take a step back, take a deep breath. Think about your intention for safety, peace, and truth. The other thing is, look at your behaviors. So if your behaviors are in line or consistent with known abusive tactics. So for example, isolation, look at your own behavior. If you’re like, “Man, I have been trying to isolate him from his abusive family, because I’ve thought if I could separate him from his flying monkeys, maybe we would have a chance.
Maybe he would stop being abusive to me and things would be okay.” The problem is trying to control an abuser’s. The only thing you’ve done there is that you have now isolated yourself with your abuser in your house. You’ve perhaps separated him from his flying monkeys that are enabling him, but now you’re still with an abuser.
You’re not away from him. So I want women to think about things like, if your desire is for peace, if your desire is for safety, if your desire is for truth, then you’ll have to detach and walk away from the harm, rather than barricade yourself in with the harm.
Jenna: That’s a good point. Another thing that I think is important to note is if you’re looking at these questions or hearing these things on these videos. And you’re reflecting on yourself and asking yourself, Am I doing these things?
Reflecting on Narcissistic Behaviors
Jenna: That’s probably a sign that you’re not a narcissist. Because narcissists don’t have that awareness.
They don’t reflect on themselves. They don’t internally process, you know, things that they can do to improve themselves and how they treat other people. So I think the fact alone that you’re reflecting or that we can, you know, ask ourselves these questions is a sign that we’re not a narcissist, hopefully.
Anne: Hopefully. Right. I heard a story from a woman in our community who said her husband, who has exhibited serious abusive tendencies, including physical violence, actually went to a therapist. Asked the therapist, am I a narcissist? And manipulated the therapist? And the therapist said, the fact that you’re here asking this question means you’re not.
Then he went back and said, “I went to therapy”. The therapist said I was not a narcissist and used that to manipulate his victim. So is so complex and difficult, and the most important thing is standing in your own truth and getting to safety regardless of what other people are saying all around you, which can be daunting when.
Victim Blaming From Clergy And Family
Your clergy, maybe your family, maybe people around you are like, what is wrong with you? Why are you saying these things or doing these things? Chill out.
Jenna: Yeah, that’s a good point. And it also reminds me of everything you talk about on the podcast. I think it always comes back to establishing safety.
So establishing safety before you make big decisions, establishing safety before making decisions about progressing in the marriage or not, but also establishing safety before you assess whether you’re a narcissist. Just interesting how it always comes back to safety. I think that’s just the take home message, which is safety first.
When I was pondering about this, I did have a funny scene that came up in my mind from the office. There’s an episode called Women’s Appreciation, so Michael, the office manager, says lots of hateful comments and is unaware.
And Angela, one of the employees, says, “And when we get mad, you always ask us if we’re on our periods.” And he says, “I know, I have to know whether you’re serious or not.” It’s funny and comical, but it just reflects the reality that women are not taken seriously in general. Their emotions are not taken seriously.
They’re expected to suppress them, or if they’re expressing them, there must be an underlying reason other than them actually having valid concerns, you know?
Justified Anger Is Dismissed
Anne: Right. So you don’t have a valid concern. It’s not concerning. You’re not justified in being angry about your husband using. So you must be on your period.
Jenna: In the industry I work in, I work with many men, as my peers and colleagues. I noticed that I started to suppress some of my natural emotions, or just the way I express myself or whatever.
Thoughts that I had maybe weren’t in line with what a man would want to hear. Like I just started to like try to filter myself so that I was acceptable to what men wanted to see or hear. I’m a single mom, so I had lots of stress trying to work a full time job.
Then my son would get sick, and I didn’t have anyone to help me take care of him. I wanted to be perceived as smart, I wanted to be taken seriously. Because I felt like if I had any emotion and showed any weakness, and that it’s not even a weakness, there I go again.
If I had shown any emotion, I assumed it would be seen as a weakness by my colleagues. So I noticed that I’ve just started to shift myself and how I interact with other people, how I present myself at work. I wanted to be seen like a man who can be taken seriously, instead of a woman, because I felt like ingrained in myself and ingrained in them. I thought that to be taken seriously, I must look like a man.
Pressure On Women Not To Threaten Men By Being Competent
Anne: It reminds me of the book How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings, Non Threatening Leadership Strategies for Women by Sarah Cooper. Have you ever heard of that book?
Jenna: I haven’t, but I clearly need to read that.
Anne: I just want to read the Amazon description. In this fast-paced business world, female leaders need to make sure they’re not perceived as pushy, aggressive, or competent.
Sarah Cooper illustrates how women can achieve their dreams, succeed in their careers, and become leaders without harming the fragile male ego. Chapters include, among others, nine non-threatening leadership strategies for women. How to ace your job interview without over acing it, you choose your own adventure. I love it, it’s a great victim blaming satire.
Do you want to be likable or successful? It includes several pages to doodle on while men finish what they’re saying. Each chapter also features an exercise with a set of in action items designed to challenge women to be less challenging.
The reason why we bring this up and perhaps get accused of being man haters is not that we hate men or not that we don’t appreciate men.
Healthy Men Who Respect Women
I would like to share that now that I know what emotional safety looks like, amazing healthy men have come into my life. Excuse me, who I trust, who care about me, who respect my opinion and respect me. They think I’m incredible. And it’s been so amazing to be around good men.
I have several of them in my life now, and interact with them frequently. And it is a delight. So I actually have more faith now in men than ever. Which is cool. That being said, the reason why we bring misogyny into this is because when women try to escape an abusive situation, this misogynistic scripting they hear from perhaps a therapist, even a female therapist or clergy or friends or family. It’s misogynistic, as well as victim blaming.
It keeps them stuck in the abuse, and they don’t see that it’s this fog of misogyny and abuse that is harming them. So the reason we have to talk about misogyny is because if they don’t start seeing what it is, it will not help them get to safety. Can you talk about how misogyny kept you in your abusive situation?
Faith Communities Are A Big Source Of Victim Blame
Jenna: In my marriage, we were active in our religion and faith community. I would like to have this marriage that I had learned about and wanted for so long that was based on equality, and I wanted this positive, happy relationship. But I got a lot of messages about a woman being like a helper to keep her husband from acting out.
I felt like I bore some responsibility, whether it was in how I maintained our home, how I spoke and interacted with my husband. I wanted to help him in so many ways, but wanted to make it better because I thought that was my job. Like part of me, I felt like I had this duty as a woman, had this duty to prevent this man from these behaviors or acting out in certain ways.
On top of that, I was just getting a lot of. Messages from my in laws who casually share these like stories about how, you know, if a woman doesn’t keep her man happy, he’s gonna find it somewhere else or go somewhere else. Even though part of me knew that that wasn’t true, there was a part of me who believed that was true, so I just continued to try to fix myself so that I could fix our relationship. Victim blaming seems to be the default.
I Want Women To Be Safe
But in reality, like we’ve talked about, the most important thing I needed to do at the time was get to safety. Because safety allowed me to have the clarity that I needed to see what was actually happening in our situation. Which was, I was emotionally abused and manipulated.
Once I was at, in a safe place, I could wait and see what he was going to do, whether he was going to make changes or not, and I could have the clarity to make decisions.
Whereas when I was in an unsafe situation, I just felt confused. I just felt like we were going in these cycles of turmoil and chaos, and it was going nowhere.
Anne: In the faith community of the like, “A faithful woman can bring to pass miracles. So have you prayed? Pray for your husband, are you reading your scriptures? Are you filling your home with spiritual things? Because if you did that, he wouldn’t be acting this way.” It’s spot on victim blaming.
Victim Blaming In Standard Religious Advice
Anne: I talked to a man whose wife had several affairs, and he told his faith leader this, and the faith leader did not say, “Are you having intimacy with her?”
Are you, have you lost weight? Like, um, are you being a man of God? They didn’t ask him any of those questions. They said, Oh, that can’t happen. Uh, you should probably file for divorce if she continues to have affairs and won’t stop. Isn’t that interesting? They use a different lense when a man is making the decision to divorce.
Jenna: That is so like backwards. I just, it is that, see that, that is a perfect example of how the standard that the world has for women as like, we have a higher expectation. There’s a higher expectation for us that we have to carry the weight of a man. Whereas men get off so easily. It’s so victim blaming.
Yeah. Like, well, that can’t happen. You shouldn’t be treated like that, you don’t deserve that. You need to get out. Like that’s how women should be too. You need to get to safety.
Jenna: I think it should, that should be the normal. That needs to be the new normal of that. Women should be expected to be treated with respect.
Women Speaking Their Minds
Mind blowing with that, but also that women should speak their mind. They should be able to tell their opinions. They should hold boundaries without people saying they are an abuser or the problem too. Exactly, I’m done with this victim blaming stuff.
Jenna: Absolutely. Have you ever seen that Nike commercial? I think it’s Serena Williams who’s narrating it, and she says, “If we show emotion, we’re called dramatic.” If we want to play against men, we’re nuts. If we dream of equal opportunity, delusional.
When we stand for something, we’re unhinged. When we’re too good, there’s something wrong with us. If we get angry, we’re hysterical or irrational or just being crazy. But a woman running a marathon was crazy. A woman boxing was crazy. A woman dunking? Crazy. Coaching an NBA team? Crazy. A woman competing in a hijab, changing her sport, landing a double cork 1080, or winning 23 grand slams, having a baby and then coming back for more?
Crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy, and crazy. So if they want to call you crazy, fine. Show them what crazy can do. And I just love that quote.
Anne: Oh, that is an awesome quote. I love that. I couldn’t agree with her more. Let’s let everybody call us crazy. We can get to safety, where we’re not emotionally and psychologically abused, and we’re not in his fog.
Then we can see straight and then. We can be a lawyer. We can be whatever we want. This world is open to us. There are so many options. Even though the situation seems daunting and impossible. And in so many ways, it is.
Hope and Strength for Victims
Anne: I just want victims to have a sliver of hope, because hope is what helps us take the next step towards safety. You’re brave, you’re strong, and you can do it. You can accomplish amazing things. If you need support this is the best support for betrayal trauma. Thank you for coming on to talk about victim blame.
Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
7 Truths About Emotional Abuse You Need To Know
Jul 16, 2024
Abusers are enabled, as these myths are embedded into the population: therapists, clergy, friends, family, and neighbors, and random people on the internet, like a recent Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast reviewer who left a comment riddled with the 7 Toxic Myths about Emotional Abuse.
Women with strong opinions, religious views, and world views should not be taken seriously.
Emotional abuse advocates usually try to find someone to listen to their own story, and aren’t actually helping victims.
If it doesn’t include physical violence, it’s not abuse.
If it only happens once, or occasionally, it’s not abuse.
A man can harm his partner, and it’s not technically abuse.
Pornography use isn’t abuse.
Betrayal isn’t abuse.
These myths are dangerous: they enable abusers to keep abusing and they encourage victims to stay in abusive situations.
7 Powerful Truths About Emotional Abuse
All women deserve a voice, especially victims of emotional abuse. As women share their stories, they can begin the journey to healing. Furthermore, strong world views, opinions and perspectives are absolutely necessary for women to begin healing. In an abusive situation, it is black and white: there is an abuser and a victim. There is the truth and there are lies. It does not take “two to tango,” and there are not “two sides” to the story of abuse.
The most powerful advocates for victims of abuse, are survivors of abuse! As women courageously tell their stories to other victims, powerful communities filled with hope, healing, and validation are created.
Physical battery is absolutely abusive, but there are many other forms of abuse that are equally destructive to another human being. Emotional abuse, psychological abuse, coercion, and betrayal are all forms of abuse that are just as serious as physical violence.
When a man harms a woman, even once, it is abuse. Pure and simple. The phrase “isolated incident” has enabled too many abusers and has put too many women in mortal danger.
Harm is another word for abuse. If someone is harming you, they are abusing you.
Pornography is abuse: it’s abusive to partners, it’s abusive to children, it’s abusive to the women and children used in the industry.
Betrayal is an excruciating form of emotional abuse.
Transcript: 7 Truths About Emotional Abuse
Anne: Today, I’m going to talk about seven toxic myths about emotional abuse.
What Can Be Learned From A Bad Review?
And this man’s review illustrates every one of these toxic myths. It’s the perfect example of what every victim is accused of when she’s trying to get to safety. It’s a perfect example of all the reasons she can’t get help, of all the reasons people dismiss her concerns. There are so many emotional abuse survivor stories and his review enlightens their struggles.
So here is his review. He says, “To be fair, there are some nuggets of truth in this podcast. But there are still disproportionate numbers of problematic things going on with it. First of all, there seems to be a clear agenda with this podcast.”
This statement makes me laugh, because it’s obvious there’s a clear agenda. He’s saying that like it’s a bad thing that I have a clear agenda. Of course, there’s a clear agenda. I say every week that men who use explicit content and commit adultery lie, manipulate, and psychologically abuse their wives. Adultery, lying manipulation, gas-lighting are abusive to your wife. So, yes, you hit the nail on the head.
https://youtube.com/shorts/oK159VgBNyo
Religious Overtones and Anti-Porn Sentiment
Then he says, “It has lots of religious overtones and strong anti-pornography sentiment.”
So here, he says if you’re religious, you should be dismissed. Because if you’re religious, then your opinions don’t matter apparently. And then secondly, if you oppose pornography, then you should be discounted. Why?
I don’t know. On the betrayal trauma recovery team, we have agnostics, Catholics, Evangelicals, women from different faiths. We are interfaith and inner paradigm here. And all the women on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Team are anti pornography because it is abusive. So, if he says we shouldn’t be listened to because we think it is abusive.
He’s entitled to his opinion. We just disagree. So sir, religious people can be logical, and they can have something important to say. Also, people opposed to it can be decent logical people. But people who don’t want to see it as abusive will use any reason they can to discount people opposed to it.
Validating Personal Experiences
Anne: Then he says, “It comes across as the host uses the podcast to validate her own experiences and values”.
Yes. Totally. And all of the other women’s experiences too, because we all share the same story.
My name Anne Blythe is from Anne of Green Gables. It’s symbolic of the universal story. That all of us who have experienced this type of abuse share. I podcast and share my personal story as a spokesperson for all of us and an archetype for all of us.
Then I invite you to share your stories, and they all sound so similar. This podcast gives victims a voice, because we’ve all been silenced. Men like this, institutions and therapists, and all kinds of people, have tried to silence us.
Effective Advocacy: A Misunderstanding
Then he says, “This is not what effective advocacy looks like.”
But he doesn’t suggest what effective advocacy for abuse victims should look like. Also, how would he know? Is he an abuse victim? According to him, a good advocate can’t have a clear agenda. They can’t speak from their own personal experience, they can’t be religious.
They can’t hate it. And they can’t highlight other women’s stories and educate women about emotional and psychological abuse or coercion through stories. I think this is an abuser who doesn’t want any woman to talk. Or any abuse victim to share their story?
Or would he like us to advocate like the therapists do or the clergy where they’re like? Maybe the abusers should come on and share his side of the story. Like no. No. He says, “This podcast is about promoting a specific perspective.”
Absolutely. This is about the specific perspective of the victim. I’m not interested in hearing from the abuser, if that’s what you mean, is that what he means? Who wants to hear from the abuser?
The Definition of Abuse
Then he says, “The host is not using definitions of abuse universally accepted by professionals in the field.”
That’s just not true. All domestic abuse advocates universally accept that manipulation and lying are psychological abuse, gas-lighting is psychological abuse. This is just industry standard abuse education. Then he says, “Not all dysfunction and harm is abuse”. And while it’s true that not all dysfunction is abuse.
If someone consistently harms someone all the time. What would he call it? Because that’s maybe what the therapists are trying to say too, that, oh, he doesn’t do it on purpose. But if someone does something harmful over and over. What else would we call it? Would we just say, well, your husband is consistently harmful, but he’s a good guy? There’s a word for it.
It’s called the abuse.
Then he says, “Harm is still harm and it’s not okay. But abuse is one partner systematically using tactics to gain and maintain control over the other partner”. Well, he nailed it there. That is the definition of abuse. But gas lighting is doing that manipulation, lying, and betrayal.
They’re trying to keep the truth from their wife. So they can continue to cheat on her. That’s exactly what we’re talking about. He has the correct definition for abuse, using tactics to gain and maintain power and control, but then he’s denying that manipulation, gas-lighting, lying, deceit, are abusive. That makes no sense.
Then I love the next thing he says.
The Complexity of Abuse
He says, “It’s not about isolated incidents of harm or even ongoing issues of betrayal,” so he’s saying abuse can’t be isolated. Apparently, and it can’t be ongoing.
All abuse is one of those two things. Then he says, “not all explicit content use is abuse”. He has a right to his opinion. I just 100% disagree with it. All of it is abusive, and then he says, “It’s dangerous to conflate the two.” Which I just flat out disagree with him. I think all of this material is evidence or documentation of someone being coerced. They might be being coerced with money.
Then he says, “Being betrayed is not necessarily a systematic attempt to dominate the other partner.” Uh, well, then what is it? To discount the other partner. To undermine the partner.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is the best betrayal trauma resource because we see systematic lies, and systematic gas lighting is an absolute systematic attempt to dismiss her as a human being, to dismiss her concerns. To dismiss her feelings, to dismiss her values, to dismiss her needs, her emotional needs and her psychological needs.
Then he writes, “There are many instances through this podcast where it’s suggested victims should try to work it out or give their spouse a chance”. Um, I don’t know if I’ve ever said that.
Safety Over Divorce
Anne: All I’ve ever talked about and advocated for is safety. Safety safety, safety, emotional safety, psychological safety. I think the thing bothering this guy is that I’m not going to tell victims of abuse what that means for them.
I always say safety should be the top priority. Does that mean divorce? Maybe it doesn’t mean separation, maybe. I’m not about to tell you what it means. This man apparently thinks he knows what safety means for abuse victims. Not just this guy, but many people accuse me of two completely different things, which is like pro divorce or anti man, or anti-family.
Then also telling people that what I talk about isn’t abuse. And I’m like, number one, I’m not pro divorce or anti man. Number two, it is abuse. So let’s talk about this dichotomy, that men, therapists, and other people are so confused about. So pro-safety just means that I want women to be emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually safe.
That’s it. I never encourage women to stay in an abusive situation.
Divorce Doesn’t Solve The Abuse
But what people who’ve never been through this don’t understand is that divorce does not solve the abuse. My ex post divorce abused me for eight years. We help women who are still being abused. Post-divorce at BTR every day.
So whether a woman is married or divorced, she could still be abused. So that’s why safety must be the goal. Not necessarily divorce. Could it include divorce, or should it yes, maybe, or maybe not like? Who am I to say? I just want her safe. That’s it.
So he says, “I understand the sentiment, but if it truly is an abusive relationship, encouraging a victim to stay as dangerous.” I’m encouraging her to get to safety.
The other problem with his solution is like, okay, if it’s abuse, get divorced. Which is what every domestic violence shelter will tell you. Then they can’t help you once you’re divorced and still being abused. So safety isn’t the top priority in these cases.
Empowering Victims to Make Decisions
Anne: The other issue is the most victims who are being abused. They don’t know that they’re being abused. And so they’re not at the point where they can like, think about their emotional safety yet, because maybe she goes to a therapist, probably like this guy. He tells her this is not abuse. Then she doesn’t necessarily realize she’s not emotionally safe. It takes a while to figure out.
So to try and tell a woman like the second, you know, it’s abuse, get divorced. Doesn’t make sense, because it takes a while to figure it out. Women have to try a few things. They have to go through the process. I’ve never met any woman in the world who immediately is like, he’s abusive. Usually, they try to have a conversation with them. They go to therapy, they do a bunch of things to figure out if he’s abusive, and that process takes time. Clearly, he has not been through this, or he would understand that.
At BTR, I want to give victims space to make the right decision for themselves, whatever that is. I also want to educate them about what abuse is and what safety is.
I’m Also A Trained Domestic Violence Advocate
He says one more thing. “As a trained domestic violence advocate and community educator, I feel the need to point out some of these problematic things.” I’m also a trained domestic violence advocate and a community educator. So. Who wins you or me? Like. Does he not know that I’m also a trained domestic violence advocate and a community educator.
Apparently he doesn’t know this. So if that’s. His criteria, then he should be like, oh, I didn’t know that she was a trained domestic violence advocate. Now that I know that. I guess everything she’s saying is okay. Or now that I know she’s a community educator. He’s dismissing all of us victims. He’s dismissing me. For all the reasons he just said, he’s dismissing you.
He’s dismissing all our experience. It’s an example of those seven toxic myths about emotional abuse that I started with. And you might get these from clergy therapists, professionals, your abuser, you’ve probably heard them already. And that’s why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and as Anne Blythe, I’m a spokesperson for you.
I take the heat for this, because I get messages like this all the time. I appreciate your prayers and support, because this type of confrontation is something I regularly experience online through emails or people accusing me of things that aren’t true. Obviously, like this guy who is contradicting himself throughout his review.
It’s common for people who haven’t been through it not to understand how complex the situation is for victims. They’re trying to simplify it and not give victims the power to make choices that are right for her. So safety, safety safety here at BTR. Okay.
Seven Powerful Truths About Emotional Abuse
Anne: And now to the seven powerful truths about emotional abuse. Let’s start with
#1 Truth About Emotional Abuse
Any time a man knowingly compromises his wife’s emotional safety, or psychological safety, and harms her emotionally, physically, spiritually, or psychologically, he is abusing her.
#2 Truth About Emotional Abuse
All women deserve a voice, especially victims of emotional abuse. As women share their stories, they can begin the journey to healing. Strong opinions and perspectives are absolutely necessary for women to begin healing. In an abusive situation, there is an abuser and a victim.
There is truth and lies. So we don’t need to hear two sides of this story. Just hearing the victim story is enough.
#3 Truth About Emotional Abuse
The most powerful advocates for victims of abuse are survivors of abuse. As women courageously tell their stories to other victims, we build powerful communities, filled with hope, healing and validation, and our community here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is incredible.
#4 Truth About Emotional Abuse
Physical battery is absolutely abusive, but there are many other forms of abuse that are equally destructive to another human being. Emotional abuse, psychological abuse, coercion and betrayal are all forms of abuse that are just as serious as physical violence. And for myself, I’ve experienced both, and I would say the emotional and psychological abuse were much more difficult to heal from.
#5 Truth About Emotional Abuse
When a man harms a woman, even once. In an effort to overpower her or gain control. It’s abuse. Pure and simple. The phrase, isolated incident, has enabled many abusers to put many women in danger, emotional danger, psychological danger, but also physical danger. An isolated incident of murder.
It’s all it takes. But also an isolated incident of soliciting a prostitute. He would like you to think it’s an isolated incident, but the likelihood of his use, his betrayal, or his lies being an isolated incident is actually quite low.
#6 Truth About Emotional Abuse
Harm is another word for abuse. If someone is continually harming you, that is abuse.
#7 Truth About Emotional Abuse
This is abuse. It’s abusive to the women in the content, it’s also abusive. To a marriage, it’s abusive to a family. It’s abusive to children. It’s abusive to everyone, betrayal is also a form of abuse.
Support and Community For Emotional Abuse Victims
Thank you to this man who helped me teach you the seven toxic myths about emotional abuse and seven powerful truths about emotional abuse. This guy really exposed what it feels like to be attacked when you start talking about abuse, and all of you have experienced this from somebody. So you know exactly what it’s like, and I appreciate your support.
I appreciate all of you who have given this podcast a positive five star review and an explanation of why this podcast works for you. It makes a huge difference. to drown out. The reviews from men or the reviews from abusers saying this podcast is bad because we don’t get the perspective of the abuser. It makes a huge difference to have your support, and I appreciate it.
So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, BTR.ORG is an incredible community where victims come together and can be emotionally safe and validated. So many women out there pray to know what’s going on. They are searching for help.
Another place where you can help by giving a five-star review with your explanation is on Amazon. If you’ve purchased Trauma Mama Husband Drama, which is my picture book for adults. So reviewing this podcast, reviewing Trauma Mama, sharing this information could be an answer. to someone’s prayer.
I hear so many victims talk about how they couldn’t figure out what was going on and they prayed. And then they found this podcast.
So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your support. No matter what your paradigm is, no matter where you come from. All of us can stand up and advocate for abuse victims.
Divorcing A Narcissist – June Checks In One Year Later
Jul 09, 2024
Divorcing a narcissist is a nightmare. Anne Blythe, M.Ed. continues her heartfelt conversation with June from the BTR Community one year after she shared the first part of her story. Here the next chapter of her journey divorcing a narcissist.
If you need support while experiencing narcissistic abuse, learn about BTR Group Sessions here.
Anne: I checked in with June one year later to see how she was doing. This interview happened one year after the episode you heard last week, but still a long time ago. You’ll hear my today voice popping in from time to time talking about The Living Free Workshop that I developed years after this time. I actually use these strategies and tools to completely deliver me and my kids from abuse without going to court.
If you didn’t hear the beginning of June’s story last week, listen to that first. It’s called He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse June story part one. Then come back and listen to this interview, which we did one year later. Welcome June. It’s been a year since we spoke. How are things going for you one year later?
June: We left off last time going through the court process of the custody issues and the divorce proceedings. We have since concluded at least custody for now because my husband appealed the custody from the family court and he appealed it to the circuit court, which in my state is the next higher court. It took us six to nine months to get into the circuit court to have that case heard.
That was an eye opening experience for me. I feel like we’ve had all of these issues, divorcing a narcissist is horrible. All of this bad behavior, all of this conflict between us and it really hasn’t been between us. It’s been him finding the gray areas in the order and exploiting those in ways that might be small and minor, but when you add them all up, it takes its toll.
Experiences With Her Ex’s Divorce Demands
There shouldn’t be any changes, or at least any big changes. Get this part over with and we can move on. In the circuit court, it was just a different experience. The judge had a lot less patience. The judge labeled the conflict as marital fighting and just conflict between my husband and I rather than abuse. That is very, very problematic. I brought two witnesses.
The judge didn’t want to hear from them, so he didn’t hear from them at all, which was a problem. I can say I’m happy with the outcome. For the most part, the custody didn’t change too much. A lot more freedom, discretion and leeway are in the order. In The BTR Community, that translates to a lack of boundaries in our new order. I know that will be a problem.
It already has been a problem. That’s what I’m dealing with right now. Currently it is just an order for custody. I’m still the primary parent. I have the kids 75% of the time, which is great. I feel that my influence on the kids and having a safe and stable home environment for them and a connected parenting relationship with them is super important.
When they’re going through this, their dad does get a certain amount of days each month and it’s when he wants to see them. He can get a certain amount of days. That creates a bit of a problem.
Husband’s Narcissistic Behavior
Anne: We’re personal friends, so we talk a lot about this. One of the things that surprises me, and I’d like to know how you feel about it, is that so many of the things that your soon to be ex does are just not smart. He doesn’t seem smart at all. He seems narcissistic, clueless, and way more confident in his own abilities than he actually is.
At the same time, he can exploit all these little areas of the law and he actually is really smart at the same time. He is a doctor, he’s not a dummy. How do you reconcile this crazy, nonsensical, irrational behavior and all of the bad choices that he makes with this ability to exploit the law in a way that works for him? This is a huge part of divorcing a narcissist. He’s sort of like this evil genius kind of thing. How do you feel about that?
June: I definitely feel that is such an accurate representation of reality of what is going on. There are times that I feel his chaos and disorganization is really, really to his detriment. Obviously it is to the detriment of the kids. It affects them. It’s chaotic. He can’t show up for appointments on time, he can’t get the kids to where they need to be on time. He won’t return things that they need, important things.
For instance, when has the kids on vacation, the court order says that the kids call me on the middle day at a certain time. Up to this date, I have never received that phone call at a certain time.
Concerns Children’s Safety
He does not let me talk to them. Honestly, as a mother, as a person who he assaulted, as a person that is very well aware of the effects of trauma, abuse, narcissism and how those things all go together and create really the perfect storm. That could be disastrous.
I worry about my kids during those times, I worry that he’s snapped, they are not okay and they’re not safe. I almost feel like it’s happened so much at this point it’s purposeful. He must know that I worry and that’s why he does it, the control. He’s definitely spiraling.
I’ve had several people in the community come and tell me that they have seen problematic behavior from him. People tell me that they have heard things that have happened at his previous workplace. I’ve had two people tell me that they’ve heard that he assaulted a female in his previous workplace. He has since lost his job because he missed several days of work, missed shifts and didn’t show up on time.
There were several other people that complained of his treatment of patients, how he was medically treating them. Some of that is also really an indication of his unhealthiness
Anne: Because with a lot of abusive men, they pick and choose. They’re very together at their job at church, they look really good. At home is when they lose their temper, they don’t lose it anywhere else. It’s a display of control at home. You’re saying his dysfunction is starting to leak out into his public persona?
Narcissistic Dysfunction
June: Yes, the dysfunction definitely is. Now that is something different than the anger and abuse. I even feel like sometimes he uses the dysfunction as a ploy to get people to feel sorry for him. He’s this broken down dad that just wants his kids so much and he’s just floundering without them
Anne: He’s a single dad and it’s so hard for him because he is a victim.
https://youtube.com/shorts/tVUVAwZzedU
June: Yes, and I feel like that’s very much what’s going on now. On dating sites, for example, He’s on all the dating sites. He clearly says, I’m a single dad. Here’s a bunch of pictures of my kids, and by the way, I have my kids 50/50. Somehow that’s supposed to mean that he is a better dad or people can trust him more,
Anne: But that’s a lie. He doesn’t have them 50/50.
June: That is a lie. He does not have them 50/50.
Anne: Mine says the same thing. He’s got these pictures of him as a dad and he’s also got this Christian for life, I love Jesus stuff going on on his dating profiles. Okay, but he doesn’t obey the commandments, whatever. I think that’s really interesting because if he did start dating someone, they would soon see that he didn’t have them 50/50. He’s really not setting himself up for a good relationship.
June: Exactly right. I think that a lot of these guys see mechanisms that can give them instant trust. Yes, being a Christian is one thing that can give them instant trust. Being a single dad is one thing that can give them instant trust with whoever their next person will be.
Financial Revelations In Divorcing A Narcissist
Another thing that I found very interesting in court this past time is that we were going over support of course, because that’s all wrapped up in custody. He testified that his church, my church, has been paying for his mortgage and car payment and that is almost $2,000 a month. This person is a doctor. He makes $24,000 a month, well over $300,000 a year.
He said the church paid for his expenses because he is so broke. That he cannot even pay for these things. In preparation my lawyer subpoenaed all of his bank records, all of his pay stubs, everything like that, all of the financials. The intern went through it and categorized things by item. It turns out that he has spent thousands of dollars on liquor, hundreds of dollars on pornography.
Anne: When we say liquor, I just want the audience to know that June’s soon to be ex and June are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Alcohol is something they do not do. His clergy is paying his house payment while this man is going out and buying alcohol, which is really, really a big deal.
June: And he had contributed tens of thousands of dollars into his own retirement during this time that the church was paying for his expenses
Anne: Acting like, oh, I’m going through so much help me. Right?
Financial Status Of Narcissistic Husband
June: And my ex-wife took all of my money. Really anyone that has gone through the courts would know. It’s a straight calculation. After this, I became very, very disturbed. I know the process, a little bit of receiving church welfare. My dad was a bishop. He had to help people meet their urgent and emergent needs on occasion. I began to really think, I need to know the story of this.
I need to know how far this went. The bishop was the same bishop that was spiritually abusive to me. This bishop had very, very clearly taken aside. Financially he had even taken a side in this divorce where he chose to support my husband and not me. He is paying these expenses, thousands of dollars a month for these things.
He has really enabled him to continue legal abuse and also continue really unhealthy behaviors and to pay for those.
Anne: If he had been paying you the $2,000 a month, you could have purchased groceries. I mean it’s crazy. Sorry, just for our listeners, steam and fire is coming out of my ears right now.
June: Really if he had just paid his own mortgage and his own car payment, then maybe he would not have as much money to pay his lawyer. Then we could move on and get everything wrapped up and not be in constant legal battle
Anne: And not have to go to the next higher court up and all that business.
Seeking Support For Divorcing A Narcissist
June: Exactly. I became very alarmed, like I said, and as soon as court was over, I began my research. In my research, I reached out to the congregation that he currently attends. The leader of it, a bishop, by this point the previous bishop had been released from that position. A new bishop was put in
Anne: For listeners who are not familiar, all of the clergy in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are volunteers. Someone is asked or called to be the leader of the congregation for a period of usually around three to five years. Then a new volunteer is called and it just rotates around. You’re saying that the old bishop was released and a new volunteer bishop was called?
June: Exactly. I felt safe reaching out to this new bishop because he was not the same one that I spoke about on the earlier podcasts who was very spiritually abusive. To this new bishop and to the leader above him, which is a stake president, and to the area authority, the person above him just to get some answers.
I had emailed a couple times with no response and explained the situation in emails. I just wasn’t getting any response. And so I just kept kind of adding more people to these emails, trying to get some sort of answers on how long has this been going on? The thing that really concerned me is that I didn’t verity anything. Because we are married, I am still the property owner on things that the church paid.
Deciding To Meet With New Clergy
I’m still on the loan for the house. I’m still on the loan for the car that is still legally my property and nothing was verified with me. In that process I learned mine and my children’s records had been transferred back to that congregation.
Anne: When June says records, I am so sorry for people who are like, we don’t want to know the workings of your church. The it will help understand the context of why this is such a big deal. That’s why we’re explaining it. The congregations are set up in geographical areas, you do not choose what congregation you go to. It’s called a ward, each congregation has a boundary to it.
You can have your records transferred in or out depending on your situation. What she is saying is that she had her records transferred out with the impending divorce and that the records were back with that congregation where her soon to be ex is going. Where your records are is where you attend church, so you find out that your records are in his congregation.
June: Upon finding that out, I just set up a meeting with the bishop because I figure,
Anne: Oh, he’s my bishop, right? This is my congregation. Yeah, he’s my bishop now.
June: Yes. I set up a meeting, I went and talked to him. I brought up the misuse and misappropriation of fast offerings, which are tithes in a way. It’s like a collection plate in another church or another religion. I brought this up to the bishop.
Meeting With Clergy About Divorcing A Narcissist
I told him I have documentation of the discretionary spending that the church would not approve of. Why is a man that is making $300,000 a year receiving this assistance when I know for a fact that we have people living in dire poverty in the congregation. We met for about an hour. The bishop listened to me.
He stated that he doesn’t know when this started, but that he did make a couple of payments for my husband. He did not verify any of this because he felt like there was a need and he just took him at face value. I also talked to him about the history and the abuse, the betrayal, the trauma, the assault, all of those things. And he was very gracious to listen and we had a very, very good discussion.
I felt very, very hopeful after meeting with him. We talked about how to deal with some of these behaviors of my husband and if this bishop had any interest in doing that because it was never dealt with.
Anne: You mean like a church court or holding boundaries or some things like that?
June: Yes, but now that I’m in the ward and my children’s records are in the ward, how to navigate that situation,
Anne: Especially if you have a protective order.
June: I did., yes. He said he really didn’t know anything about the situation or anything like that. He said that he was more interested in current things that were happening, current abuse. So I described some situations and post-separation abuse, post-divorce abuse is a lot harder to really identify. It can just look like someone just being a jerk to the other parent. Describing what it’s like while divorcing a narcissist is difficult.
Protective Orders & Church Policies While Divorcing A Narcissist
I did describe situations of my husband swearing at me at drop off in exchange, purposely keeping the kids from talking to me. Situations that I would say are very much in this gray area that one or two things by themselves don’t really do anything. I said, I’ve been living this for over two years and I can tell you it’s just repeated abuse. It’s just in a different form. It was very interesting to hear his take on that.
I asked him what kind of training he received for dealing with abuse and trauma. He said that he has the spirit and that’s the training.
Anne: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Because narcissists seem like they’re telling the truth and so it unquote feels right. Yes.
June: I tried to gently push back on that a little, and I just said, okay, but you realize that when you gave him this money, you would’ve had that same discernment, the spirit and it didn’t work right. You understand that, and I could see the wheels were turning. I could see that he was thinking about that. I also took in the policy on abuse.
The church has come out with a policy, I think it was in March of 2018, and it’s very, very clear. There’s a very clear directive that abuse is not to be tolerated. That people who come reporting abuse in any form should be believed and that false accusations are just not the norm. In fact, they are very, very rare. And so I really came with that policy in hand
Conversations About Repentance & Church’s Role
Anne: Before you go on, the false accusations are usually from the abuser, right? The abuser is usually saying, I was abused.
June: I could refer to it at different points in our conversation. I said, now that I’m reporting this, is it your intention to look into this and to handle it in a way that is conducive with the church’s own policy? Again, I felt like he probably had good intentions, but he said, well, yes, I’ll bring him in here and I’ll talk to him. Every story has two sides.
Anne: The abuser is never going to be like, oh yeah, I was the abuser. And then he is going to say, okay, then let’s go forward with the policy. If the abuser goes in and says, no, that’s not what happened. She’s the abuser. Then they’re just left confused and they’re like, well, I don’t know what to do and I don’t know what this policy means now,
June: And this is where I feel like the behaviors of my husband and the acting really come into play.
Anne: You mean his hypocritical slash, I’m the victim slash, I’m a good guy stuff.
June: Yes. I described this actually for the bishop, I said, I was married to this person for over a decade. This always goes the same way. I said, he will come in here and he will say, I’m so sorry, I just feel so horrible and I’m just damaged. I said, then he will start crying, and my husband is a very big guy. To see a grown man cry is shocking. Because it is so shocking, we think, oh my gosh, this is so shocking.
Telling Clergy About Husband’s Narcissism
He must be in complete and utter turmoil. Then because we’re distracted in our thinking and not centering on the subject matter of what we wanted to talk to him about, it kind of gets swept under the rug, and that’s that. I said, I’ve seen him do this so many times
Anne (00:21:23): He also starts blaming you and telling him how abusive you were and all the bad things you did, but if you haven’t listened, she ended up with a night in jail. So I’m sure then he pulls that out. She went to jail.
June (00:21:35): That I kidnapped the kids. Remember the arrest has now been expunged, and so legally I do not have to say that I have been arrested anymore, but usually to build my credibility, I’m very upfront with that. There’s not a lot of shame there for me at all anymore. So I really did tell the bishop that I was very concerned because not only does he come in here and act like this, but he’s also looking like it.
He looks disheveled and remember people are telling me he doesn’t look so good. I said, everything that you’re seeing and that you’re hearing will be telling you that, oh yeah, maybe he does have a plausible story. Maybe this is the truth. That is what I think is so harmful about this situation in particular, is that he is using his own unhealthiness as a means to be able to prove his story.
Advising Clergy To Ask Victim About Repentance
That he is so despondent and just in despair at what has happened when that is not the truth. I was very clear also, I told the bishop, I will be the first person to know of true repentance by my husband. I will be the first person to see it, I will be able to see and clearly be able to identify change behavior.
Anne: If you want to know if someone’s repented, ask the victim.
June: Yes. I got into a really important discussion with him about that, and I’m so glad that I did because I asked him, how do you assess for repentance? How do you assess change in behavior? Do you ask the victim? Do you ask the person that it was directed to? He said, well, yeah, of course we would.
Anne: But you’re like, but they never have have with me.
June: Exactly.
Anne: From all the women in our community. I can’t remember one of them being asked when they’re still married and they’re both in the same congregation. If they’re in a separate congregation, they don’t call the victim.
June: Exactly. I had a really important discussion with him about that. I also said that at one point in the marriage with a previous bishop, this was a completely different bishop that my husband had admitted to infidelity and that we had gone to the bishop. We were trying to work through it. This was sort of at the codependent phase of my process
Anne: When you were doing the codependent stuff.
June: I was doing the codependent thing with my husband and really trying to connect, thinking the more that we could connect, the less that he would have these behaviors.
Anger & Its Legitimacy In Divorcing A Narcissist
Anne: The more you attach to your abuser, the less he would abuse you during that stage.
June: We did go to the bishop several years ago, and this bishop actually did call him to a church disciplinary council, and it was very small. It was just talking to a few of the leaders about the nature of the harm that was done. At the time this bishop said, I would invite you to come, but I feel that you’re just too upset and too angry, and there is no place for that there.
Anne: What? There’s no place for the victim to tell her experience.
June: Yes, there’s no place for your anger within the council because it’s a council of love and we want to be able to feel the spirit.
Anne: Oh, you don’t have any right to be angry and your anger is unjustified basically. This is so crazy.
June: I didn’t end up going at all. Like I said, this was several years ago. I didn’t end up going. I relied solely on my husband to tell me what the outcome of that particular event was. He said that the brethren had prayed about it and everyone had the spiritual experience that he was changed and that there was to repentance. I still kind of wonder what actually happened.
Anne: Yeah, you don’t know what went down.
June: I don’t know. I told my current bishop that I felt like that was harmful. The more that I’ve proceeded and progressed in my own healing, the more that I have recognized anger is such a healthy thing.
Understanding Divorcing A Narcissist Issues
Anne: Is totally normal. How else would you be?
June: Exactly. It’s completely normal. And I said it even kept me safe. It kept me safe from being with this person intimately, emotionally, physically, spiritually. It kept me safe at that time, and that is the only thing that kept me safe.
Anne: Yeah, because you sure weren’t doing it.
June: Exactly. Like I said, I didn’t realize it at the time because I was in this codependent model of therapy.
Anne: We’ve all been there.
June: I told this current bishop that the anger that I was labeled with and that being harmful was really, really nothing compared to the harm that I had suffered. In my marital vows being betrayed and in putting my unborn child at risk. I was 37 weeks pregnant at the time that my husband was intimate with another person, all of these lies, deceptions, betrayals and, of course, I would be angry.
Of course, I would be so upset and distraught and everything else. We had another discussion about legitimate anger and I said, I don’t see anger as a bad emotion. No emotion is bad. They just have different purposes and different meanings.
Anne: Well, and it also depends on what caused it. If your abusive perceptions of the woman who should make the meal are causing your anger. Then she doesn’t make the meal and that’s why you’re getting mad. The abusive perceptions are what’s causing the anger rather than healthy perceptions.
I think it also depends on if your perceptions are coming from a healthy place or if your perceptions are coming from an entitled, objectification, power, control, and manipulation place too.
Discussion Of Legitimacy Of Anger In Divorce
June: If they come from that place, that means that is abuse. I would say the abuser who’s angry because he’s entitled to a hot meal and the wife didn’t get it together that day and he flies off the handle, that’s abuse. That is past the point of anger into abuse.
Anne: For people who don’t know about abuse, they think, well, they’re both angry. They don’t recognize the difference between the two. Yeah,
June: Exactly. We had another really important discussion of that mechanism of abuse and violence really, and betrayal trauma. I took the time to educate him a little bit on betrayal, trauma on how women feel in this situation and how devastating it is and how expendable if felt.
When the betrayals reached a point for me that my boundary was divorce and separation. Not to mention I was unsafe, I was assaulted and that was just a boundary for me that I had to do what I did. I tried to explain that to him, I felt like it was eye opening. I felt like it was a good conversation.
Anne: It was eye opening for you or him?
June: I felt like it was eye opening for him. I had this conversation about a week ago. It’s difficult to describe what it’s like divorcing a narcissist
Anne: It’s been a week, but my guess is that over time he’ll ponder it and he’ll either move closer to the truth and he’ll get softer toward you and more protective of you, and he’ll set more boundaries around him. Or he’ll get farther away from the truth, start treating you worse and start treating the abuser better. It’s going to go one way or the other.
Church’s Financial Assistance Policies
The more he ponders it, he’s either going to start making excuses for the falsities and dig himself deeper that way, or he’s going to get better. Only time will tell.
June: Exactly. He did say that it’s very clear that he needs to speak with my husband, and he said it’s clear that he does not feel like giving him any more assistance would be appropriate without verifying and looking at his financials closer. It’s hard because in our particular religion, we have these donations set up for the needs of people, and I was always very happy to tithe and to give extra to help meet these needs.
I was under the impression that there was kind of a requirement for this to be temporary, to help people in emergency situations, you get employment somewhere else, take a second job or something like that.
Anne: Or in long-term situations with a widow for example, you would be a good candidate for a long-term situation. You’re a single mom of four. I would be a good candidate. Widows would be good candidates. It’s not that it’s always going to be short-term. There are going to be cases where it’s appropriate to have long-term help, but he’s not one of those guys.
He’s not disabled, he’s not a widow, he’s not mentally or physically disabled except for with his narcissism. He’s a doctor.
Most Painful Time Of Divorcing A Narcissist
June: Exactly. Conversely, when you compare this to the time in our separation that I was so destitute because he had paid nothing in support for almost five months. I had gone to the bishop and asked for a couple of food orders, which the church has a really great welfare program for food where they deliver food to people in local congregations.
I had asked for a couple of orders until wage garnishment could go through, and the Bishop gave me a couple of orders for me and the kids. Then all of a sudden cut me off completely and said, you don’t need this anymore. I’m not giving it to you anymore. I still hadn’t received any child support checks. I still hadn’t received any sort of support. The despair that I felt at that time when that happened is still so painful.
It is still one of the most painful feelings that I could describe. I didn’t survive because the church helped me. I survived in spite of them not helping me. That has hurt me for years.
Anne: When they’re simultaneously helping your abuser.
June: Yes.
Anne: Obviously not cutting him off.
June: No, I tried to blow the whistle in my local congregation. At the same time I was doing this, I had also called church headquarters, got the name of someone that I could speak to in the auditing department, and I shared my story with them. They were horrified about my story.
Anne: That’s great news.
Don’t Know Ultimate Result Of Speaking Up
June: It is great news. They did say that they’ve had problems in this area before that they would see about investigating it. It seems like I really kept running into these brick walls. And on top of that, it was everyone that I spoke to or had the chance to speak with, were men. They had never been in this situation.
Anne: I want to tell a story here because you don’t know what the fruits of this will be. When I was a teacher, there was something that went down that was not right. I wrote the superintendent. I just wrote a really short email and said, Hey, this is going down. It’s not cool. I didn’t hear anything for probably six months.
Then all of a sudden this superintendent showed up and had a meeting at our school with all of the teachers, and I was the facilitator of that meeting. I was the one who had brought it up in the first place. I had all of the teachers testify of what had happened. A couple of people resigned because of the email and because of what I did. I didn’t really see it immediately.
A lot of women call somebody, they write somebody, they go to a meeting, they speak up and the person just looks at ’em weird and they’re like, that didn’t go well.
You don’t know what the long-term effects of that will be. It might not be that someone resigns or that someone gets fired. It might not be that big, who knows? I don’t want this glazed over look that we get from male leadership, clergy, pastors, therapists, whoever it is to stop us from speaking unless we go in and have these meetings.
Returning To Church As A Divorcing Woman
Even though my guess is you were pretty terrified after all of the abuse that you’ve been through with clergy. I’m so proud of you and I want to encourage women. Our safety’s on the line, our emotional safety, our reputation. People call us crazy. People call us man haters. We need to keep speaking up. We will never know the extent of influence that we have.
June: More than ever, I feel so strong about that. It is easy to get discouraged. It is very easy to say, well, they listened to me. They didn’t take action right away. That just means that they’re never going to,
Anne: I don’t think that’s true. If enough of us went in and spoke, they would take action eventually. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year. But if every woman who has been through this in every church or in every paradigm or with every single therapist spoke up, we could change the world.
June: Yes. So after this all happened, I also made the decision to just start attending this congregation and it kind of came out of the blue today. I had someone invite me and I trusted this person and sat by her and I went, and I could not have had a more positive experience when I went to church today.
Anne: For our listeners. She has been avoiding church.
June: For years, for over two years..
Anne: In our church, if you don’t go, it’s sort of like you’re the guilty one. See, she’s the problem because she’s not coming to church. Victims are labeled with that all the time.
Positive Experience With Church Members
June: Since this happened, I’ve definitely dealt with my share of flying monkeys in the congregation, and that’s a term where people do the bidding and the dirty work of the narcissists by spreading rumors and lies and gossip. Let me tell you, all those people were there. I have done a lot of work. I’ve gone to the BTR groups, I’ve done guided meditation and I have done all of this work on healing.
I’ve read books today. I can say that I went there and I was really strong and felt for the most part, unaffected emotionally. I felt that my boundaries were my boundaries and that those people and what they say or what they think really didn’t have to affect me. And I do not for one second want to make it seem that we have a choice all the time for these things not to affect us.
I am saying that healing takes time and that healing can happen. You can get to a place where it will be okay. It will be okay for you. Actually, my husband’s affair partner was also in the ward.
Anne: Also your really good friend before he had an affair with her.
June: Yes. My really good friend who was also in the ward, it was her mother who was teaching one of the lessons today. I was like, oh my goodness, what are the chances? But it was a wonderful lesson. It was on mental health challenges and the stigmatization that doesn’t need to happen. She taught the lesson. It was fantastic. I added some things because I work in the area of mental health.
Verified Lies & Affair While Divorcing A Narcissist
We got to talking and she didn’t know who I was and she wanted to know who I was. In the parking lot afterwards, I told her who I was.
Anne: She’s probably heard horrific stories about you. She just didn’t know you were the one that she had heard these horrific stories about.
June: Yes. I just said to her, I believe that your daughter and my husband had an affair. I said, I don’t want you to feel any way about it. I’m just telling you that I’m the wife. She said that she was very aware that they had a relationship and she didn’t know that he was still married. We kind of became friends and talked about our similar career interests.
There is no way I could have had a conversation like that two years ago when this was fresh. There is no possible way. Today I had a conversation. It was a very difficult conversation with someone that I would’ve never dreamed I could have a conversation with before. It’s a lot like the conversation that I had with the bishop.
I would’ve never dreamed I could have such an impactful and pleasant and peaceful conversation while saying exactly what I needed to say.
Anne: This is also a testament to being away from your abuser for years, that you’re talking about it. You didn’t have as many boundaries. The manipulation and fog that they can create is really dark. The longer you set the boundaries for safety, emotional, physical, psychological, sexual safety. The longer you set those, not only do you get more and more out of the fog, so do other people.
Setting Boundaries For Narcissistic Behaviors & Results
June: Yes. And I feel that that has really been also a roadmap to trying to co-parent with a narcissist. We are still having major issues, major issues and issues where the kids’ safety has even been a concern. Issues of abusive things going on.
The more that I am in these situations and the more that I just do not react and just set those boundaries, set the boundaries for safety, the more that I find it not affecting me as much. Now it’s hard because I do see some of this affecting the children, and that is a big challenge. It breaks my heart.
They will use the children to hurt you when they can’t hurt you directly anymore. I feel that that is what is happening, that is horrifying. It’s horrifying.
Anne: It is. Yeah. Well, and the boundaries you have to set are really rough too. For example, I set a boundary that my children go out in the clothes that they came in with. The reason I set that boundary is because he was stealing my clothes. I would send them out in nice clothes and he would send them back in hand me down rags from his family.
I asked repeatedly, please send them back in the clothes I sent them out with. And he said, it’s impossible. He was like, well, you wash their clothes. He just did all these things. Finally, I just said, okay, I’ll send them back in the clothes you send them in. I saved some of his clothes from when they came back in their rags. One day I sent them out in his rags, and we’ve been doing that ever since.
Discussing Boundaries While Divorcing A Narcissist
It breaks my heart. My children do not want to put those rags on, and I don’t want to send them out of the house like that, but that is the boundary. I said, you guys, I’m so sorry. Your dad’s choices hurt everyone. They hurt me. They hurt you. I am sorry that you don’t have snow boots when you go to his house. That’s his job and I’m divorced from him. The challenges of divorcing a narcissist are immense.
I don’t need to babysit him anymore or make sure that your needs are met when it’s his job to take care of you. It’s so hard to make those choices. I don’t think that women can start making these boundaries unless they have a lot of support.
When I say support, I mean someone who understands this type of abuse to help them set the boundaries, because otherwise, that type of boundary seems really hard. I seem like I’m this awful, terrible person who’s sending my kids out in rags, and I had to make that decision based on assessing my values, assessing the consequences of his behavior to his own children.
Do you think you could have set the boundaries that you set without The BTR Community without Betrayal Trauma Recovery?
June: Definitely not. When I first started learning about boundaries, it was a foreign concept to me. I was never taught this growing up or my faith. I was never taught this in college even. It has really been a learning process. When I started learning about boundaries, I inevitably made mistakes along the way as everyone does.
Support From BTR Group Sessions While Divorcing A Narcissist
Anne: How did The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community help you progress in your knowledge and your application of those boundaries?
June: I could come with a scenario. I could come with a real life problem and be directed into what my values were, what my boundaries should be around those values. What that ultimately looks like in practice and being supported, being supported in whatever boundary I chose. That was my boundary and I was going to be supported in that, and I knew I had backup, and that was huge.
Anne: The other thing that’s so hard about boundaries is, let me read you this quote I just saw. So this is a line from ancient Sanskrit scripture. It says, you are only entitled to the action, never to its fruits, which I think is really good. That’s how boundaries are. And that’s why people are so afraid to set them, because you set a boundary and you have no idea what the consequences are going to be.
You just have to know that what I’m doing is for my safety, and this is what feels right now. You can always adjust, I set that boundary and maybe that wasn’t the right thing to do. Next time I’ll do it differently. Right? Like you said, you’re going to make some mistakes. Things will need to adjust. My boundary that I set, I didn’t want to get divorced.
Difficulty Communicating With A Liar
I didn’t think divorce was going to be where that led, I needed no contact. I cannot have any semblance of communication with this person without him lying to me, manipulating me, trying to pull one over on me, nothing. There can be no communication without that. I didn’t know what the consequences would be. Some women set a boundary and their husband thinks, wow, I’ve been abusive.
I’m sorry. We don’t know what the consequences are going to be. That is one thing that you need support for. You need support to know, even though this could lead to something awful or good. We have no idea, if we focus on the now and the safety in the moment, then it will always lead us down the right path.
June: Exactly. Boundaries can change. When I first started in this process of going through litigation for custody it is expected that we co-parent and communicate. I took what that judge said very seriously. I would write detailed email updates every month with the kid’s appointments, how they were doing with pictures, all of these things to him and do it very quickly.
This last court date, I found out that he used a lot of that against me. A lot of it was sadly very, very sadly used against me. This judge didn’t really care about that so much. He actually made a comment that these people are divorced. They’re not going to co-parent, who cares. While I am totally and willingly invested in co-parenting with a healthy person, I doubt very much that that can happen when divorcing a narcissist.
Now I’m left renegotiating, alright, where does this leave me as far as communication and how much do I want to have?
The BTR Living Free Workshop Helped
Anne: Yeah. The BTR Living Free Workshop teaches these tools and the phrases to use to ensure that the communication is safe and is leading towards safety. We found that these tools work whether or not you’re married or divorced or separated, these tools work no matter what stage you’re in.
June: My emails to him are short, to the point, unemotional, straightforward and full of facts. That’s it, nothing else. Nothing else needs to be there. My communication is polite but brief. It is the communication that I would have with someone like a boss or a coworker or something like that.
Anne: The reason why I love having women from our community on the podcast is because everyone can benefit from hearing other women’s stories. As you listen, if you relate and you would like to come on the podcast and share your story, please email us at podcast@btr.org.
June: It’s very, very important. I can not stress this enough. It is so important for women in this situation to do research on divorcing a narcissist. A lot of these guys that have porn issues and infidelity issues, have narcissistic issues as well. You do not see that until, I often say, I was married. I could manage this behavior. I could manage him a little bit because I kind of knew how to work around these things.
Anne: I’d say the same of me managing it. Yeah.
Abuse Escalation While Divorcing A Narcissist
June: Yes. A friend told me when I was being severely abused every day, verbally abused, emotionally abused, spiritually abused. She was aware of the situation. She even said to me, just make sure what is in your future because it can and it will get worse. At the time, I thought, there’s nothing that could be worse than going through this constant and daily abuse every single day.
I felt like I was losing my mind, I didn’t know which end was up, I didn’t know reality. I had such a fog, fear, obligation, and guilt I was really, really just not a healthy person. Now I begin to see what she was talking about. Yes, the abuse is worse because now it is directed towards my children. Now it is directed within the community. Now it is directed in different ways that are so much harder to prove.
It’s like if you went into court, do you think a judge is really going to care that he sends your kids in rags?
Anne: No.
June: I mean, the judge that I went to, he would say, get out of here,
Anne: Or Why are you so judgy? Or whatever. That’s not the thing that I think is abusive. The abusive thing is stealing my clothes, not respecting anyone’s time and all those things. He has plenty of money. He could buy him boots or whatever, but he doesn’t.
Manipulation Of Proceedings When Divorcing A Narcissist
June: Right. And the thing is that I feel like a lot of the family court professionals, judges, things like that, have really been desensitized. They hear horrific cases of abuse. When a dad can’t get the kids somewhere on time or can’t return their clothes, it just does not register with them as the abuse that it is. It is abuse because we feel it. We know that.
I think these things are purposeful because he knows no one’s going to care. He knows I care because I can’t afford to go out and buy a new coat every time that he forgets to return theirs.
Anne: Exactly. Yeah. Well, you’ve got a doctor for an ex or soon to be ex, I have an attorney.
June: Yes
Anne: They know what they can and cannot do. And so they go right up to that line and they don’t cross it.
June: Yes. And going back to your original point, that is very much within their realm and their playbook of abuse and narcissism. They know what they’re doing and they not only know, but they exploit that in a way that sometimes is unbelievable. It’s unbelievable. Yeah, I do feel like things have gotten worse, this is what happens when divorcing a narcissist.
I have spent probably close to a hundred thousand dollars trying to get divorced. I’m still not divorced. That is the reality of divorcing a narcissist. That is the reality.
Anne: That’s financial abuse.
Escalation Of Abuse In Divorce Proceedings
June: It is financial abuse. It’s legal abuse. It’s everything. Things are worse. The difference is that now I’m not in that constant state of abuse in my own home. I can deal with this other abuse. Now I feel like I can function. I am a functional adult. I’m not only surviving, but I am thriving despite all of this other abuse. It’s horrible, horrible abuse still, but I’m able to handle it.
Anne: So you’re not finished with your divorce yet, but do you have some tips for our listeners? I want you to start way back with even listeners who are not thinking that divorce is in their future. Even listeners who are thinking, No, he seems to be understanding what I’m saying. He seems to be getting better because you and I both went through a phase where we thought, oh, things are getting better. He understands.
I’m not saying that listeners who are in that phase are going to get to the divorce phase. Maybe he will continue to improve, and if so, both June and I are very happy for you. That’s great. We wish that would’ve happened for us and it didn’t. Let’s start there. Even for women in that phase, what tips do you have about what is coming, what to expect and things that you wish that you would’ve known?
June: It would’ve been very helpful for me to know that really the natural progression of these cases when they are taken to court. If a dad goes back and asks for more time, whatever. Any information about divorcing a narcissist would be helpful. The court will oftentimes just give him a little bit more time. Like I said, my situation was that there has been all this bad behavior.
Narcissistic Husband’s Lying in Court
Surely he won’t be rewarded with a big change. He wasn’t rewarded with a huge change, but it was enough of a change that he could exploit the lack of boundaries, like I said, and now that’s what we have. Now that’s what I’m going to deal with. Be prepared for them to paint a picture of you that is literally unrecognizable.
He lied about many, many things. He said all of these things about me not caring for the kids or the kids being dirty and all of this other nonsense.
That’s very hard. It’s very hard when I feel like so many times I have literally been the bigger person. I have invited him to the kids’ events, made sure to save a seat for him and been very aware and doing the emotional labor to include him in those things. To have that used against me is horrible. It feels horrible. It’s a betrayal on its own.
After this last court date, like I said, I was in shock. I was in some trauma because I know what boundaries, the lack of boundaries would do to my husband in this situation. It’s only going to get worse. That was very hard. If I had expected that a little bit more, I think it would’ve been maybe a little bit easier. You talked to me right afterwards and I was pretty distraught. Now I’m feeling okay about it.
Divorcing A Narcissist: Documentation In Preparation For Future
I feel like I’ve gotten some good coping skills and that documentation is going to be huge. So the other thing that I learned is that documentation is key. It is paramount. You have got to document everything. That can be a challenge sometimes. One thing that I’ve learned that has helped me immensely wherever I am is I use the BTR boundary log.
Anne: The boundary log is a log that is available to women who have taken The Living Free Workshop that teaches all of these strategies about how to think about it, how to set boundaries, and how to communicate. The boundary isn’t just an independent book that you would buy, it’s for you specifically for women who have enrolled in The Living Free Workshop.
June: Yes, that has been great. Anytime there is some kind of an issue, the kid’s not getting somewhere on time, an offhanded comment, him swearing at me, him forgetting to return one of the kids’ items and refusing to go get it. I just write that down and that is my log. The way that you document your evidence is very, very important. Keeping a timeline of those things in real time is huge.
Another thing that I’ve learned is that I think that a lot of times the narcissistic ex is really in the mindset of winning. This is about winning for him. I don’t think that he really wants the kids asking for 50/50, and mind you, he hasn’t gotten it. He keeps asking, acting like he wants it. I think that this is about winning for him. It’s not that he actually wants to have the kids but that he wants the appearance of wanting the kids.
Husband’s Public Persona Backfires
On dating sites, it says that he has them 50/50. Sometimes I think that you can use that to your advantage. I am aware of a woman who allowed her ex to say that he had 50/50 when in reality it wasn’t, and he didn’t actually want it. He just wanted to be able to say that.
June: However you can make that and use that to your benefit, I think is important.
Anne: Before you move on, I want to stress that you might get really upset in court about things like, oh, they’re saying this thing and I don’t want that thing to happen. The reality is once that paper is signed and the divorce decree is done, what happens may be very different. You might think, oh, okay, I got everything that I wanted, or I didn’t get anything that I wanted, or whatever it is.
In reality, it might not even function like that. Just note that what they really want is the appearance of things. If they’re saying things, but it’s really not affecting the way you and your kids live, oh, for heaven’s sake, let them say it. That’s a type of battle that’s not worth fighting. This is like win-win because they get to live their lie and you get to get away.
June: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Part of me thinks that once we get the divorce finalized, divide the property and everything. Maybe things will calm down a little bit. I’ve often said I can deal with whatever crazy schedule we have, whatever he is going to do to me for the amount of time that he gets the kids every month, then fine. Most of the time I am peaceful, and that’s everything.
Build Community Support For Divorcing A Narcissist
That’s another tip that I want to share, please build your community and engage in your self-care and get to know the ropes. I can’t stress that enough. If I had the choice not to go through the court system, I would do that because this has been traumatizing. It is awful. It makes you feel victimized again and again and again. I feel like the narcissist. Really press on that.
Anne: The court system tends to work better for them than it does for the victims, and mostly because the victims are telling the truth and they’re willing to lie about anything.
June: Sometimes I find myself almost shocked at the stuff they would lie about. It’s almost so obvious that you don’t think they would lie about it. You will be shocked at what it’s like divorcing a narcissist. You don’t think that you’re going to have to prove it wrong. I mean, why would you ever think that you had to prove reality? Well, with a narcissist, you do.
Anne: If you can get away with not proving it by not getting in the argument about reality in the first place, that’s the best case scenario. There’s no way they’re ever going to say, oh yeah, you presented all these facts. Okay, good point. That’s never going to happen.
June: Now that we’re done with custody, I have asked my husband if it is possible at all for us to just reach a settlement in terms of the divorce and property. I filed on grounds and in my state grounds go to fault. I did file a fault divorce as opposed to a no-fault divorce. A fault divorce, if proven, can influence equitable division of property at this point.
Husband’s Sabotaging Himself
Now that it’s been two years, I am more than willing to forego that whole process and move on with my life. Not having to go through all of that to be able to prove grounds and establish grounds and fault. I asked him recently if he wanted to come to a settlement. We don’t have that many things to divide up.
I can’t imagine why we couldn’t come to some sort of reasonable agreement, which is what the courts would do anyway, really divide everything.
He told me, no, I intend to go through the courts for this. The reason is beyond me, and I’m still trying to figure that out. When we start digging into affairs, adultery, abuse, cruelty, when we start digging, we will deposition people. That’ll be people from church, people from his old workplace, people from the community. I imagine that that will bring up things that he probably does not want to see the light of day.
I cannot, for the life of me understand it, I sat here and I tried for about a week to figure out what he is thinking and why on earth he would be doing this, wanting to do that. Doesn’t he realize what’s at stake? Well, I finally figured that because to him, he feels so entitled and because to him, he has really gotten rewarded for lying.
He came into court and told completely falsified story. He really hasn’t felt the consequences of that. I almost feel that his response was also a peek into how delusional his thinking is and how entitled and untouchable he really feels.
No Longer Afraid Of Narcissistic Husband
He has not felt the consequences of his actions. I feel that his response was really indicative of that, that he doesn’t think there will be any consequences.
Anne: Do you think there will be? Are you more hopeful about him having the consequences of the property settlement? Or are you, after what you’ve been through, thinking oh my gosh it’s going to go bad too. Well, it can’t go bad because the worst thing that can happen is they divide everything up equally. He’s willing to spend a ton of money to try and avoid the inevitable, really.
June: Exactly. Let me just cut my losses and get out of this. I don’t want to have to go through depositions. Do you think I want to sit here and go through all of these women? I have no desire to do that, but because now I can kind of see the writing on the wall and I can say, okay, I guess if this is what you’re going to want to do, that’s what we’re going to be doing.
It’s kind of a bluff game. I think for him it is well, I’m going to make her so scared that I’m going to actually do this. In my case, I don’t have anything to be scared about. I feel like that’s a very interesting point, I feel that never, never underestimate reasoning with them. I thought for sure that we would be able to reason and reach a settlement especially when he has things like this at stake.
While divorcing a narcissist their entitlement gets in the way of their self-preservation, if that makes sense.
Hope For The Future After Divorcing A Narcissist
Anne: Yeah, I agree. And they just make really, really poor choices. Wow. Well, we’ll see how it goes. It’ll be interesting to see over the years, especially with our ex’s because we have very similar ones. They’re both very professional. They’re both supposedly active in church. They both show up in the white shirt and tie kind of thing. It’ll be interesting to see over time the consequences that happen.
The good news is, even if we don’t worry about them at all, which is hard because they’re still dealing with our kids. June and I are getting exponentially stronger and more and more firm in our boundaries. The safety in our homes is increasing and we’re healing more and more. We’re finding more peace and safety in our lives. That’s exciting. Any woman can find that even if your ex is not as horrific.
Even if you’re considering whether or not you need to set boundaries with your current husband.
Even if they’re not showing these types of horrific behaviors, you still get to decide, how am I going to think about this? What boundaries do I need to set? How am I going to communicate? All the information that you need to know in order to make really good decisions is in The BTR Living Free Workshop that can take you through these strategies.
This interview was actually years ago, and I’m talking about it now after getting to safety. When I did this interview, I was not completely safe like I am now, but now I’m a hundred percent safe and I use the strategies in The Living Free Workshop.
He Blamed ME For The Emotional Abuse – June’s Story
Jul 02, 2024
It’s common for victims of emotional abuse to say, “He blamed me for the emotional abuse.” If this has happened to you, here’s what you need to know.
To see if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Anne: June and I did this interview years ago. At this time, my ex was abusing me and my kids on almost a daily basis under the guise of co-parenting messages that were emotionally and psychologically abusive. He was undermining my children’s medical care, their extracurricular activities, and their school work. I constantly had a pit in my stomach.
Although I was actively trying to figure out how to deliver myself and my children from the abuse, the answers hadn’t come yet. When I listened to this episode again, I could hear the anger and frustration in my voice. I was doing everything right, at least everything I’d learned up until that point. I did everything the typical therapist and clergy told me to do.
Everyone told me that I should get over it and move on. They couldn’t wrap their head around the fact that I was still being emotionally and psychologically abused and my children were being undermined. Yet I was being blamed by the court and guardian ad litem.
Thankfully after years of study and prayer, I discovered emotional safety strategies that in stages delivered us from the abuse when I implemented them. I didn’t even have to go to court.
My children and I no longer have to deal with my emotionally abusive ex, and I still use these strategies. I wanted to make sure that my experience wasn’t a fluke and that these strategies weren’t just specifically for me. I tested the strategies for years with other sheroes who confirmed that they worked for them too.
Being Blamed For The Emotional Abuse
Once we knew they would work for any woman in any situation, I created the Living Free Workshop. In our BTR Group Sessions, women ask questions about how to implement these strategies and find support there.
Make sure you check out the Group Session schedule. I’m still angry that women trying to get to emotional and psychological safety are thwarted and blamed at every turn. I think we should all be angry about that. In this interview, a member of the BTR Community, June shared her story.
June found out that her husband used pornography and had affairs with multiple partners. He continued to do it after they were separated and going through the divorce process. At the time, June’s four children were very young and all of them have special needs to varying degrees.
https://youtube.com/shorts/ehlocZ9sLag
We’re going to start by talking about the challenge of having special needs children when your husband is emotionally and psychologically abusive. Then she shared her story of how she met her husband and how she discovered the truth. You guys are going to be really curious about June’s story. June, let’s start with you talking about your children.
The Challenges Of Parenting Special Needs Children When You’re Being Blamed For His Emotional Abuse
June: I have four children. They range from age nine to three, two boys and two girls, and they each have some level of special needs. My 9-year-old has autism spectrum disorder, sensory processing disorder, auditory processing disorder and also ADHD.
He’s probably been most impacted as far as special needs go and on the disability range. My other children have speech and language issues, and all of my children have been affected by trauma. Which is really important to note because the treatment for trauma impacted children as well as special needs children can overlap sometimes.
In my own home and in my own parenting, I do a lot of things to address that; things to help them feel safe, things to help them process that trauma and process those emotions. It really is no different, many times the work I do with my profoundly impacted child as opposed to the rest of my children that have suffered the trauma is the same.
Anne: Let’s talk about your nine-year-old son who is on the spectrum for a moment. Would you say that some of his behaviors have escalated due to the trauma in the home? Do you see that? They’re a little bit correlated.
Impact Of Emotional Abuse On Children”s Behavior
June: I see that my son who has autism can have a very hard time processing those things. He can have a more difficult time than the other kids processing the actual separation and divorce. He can tend to perseverate on that and ask why. Any answer that I give him won’t necessarily satisfy him.
Kids on the spectrum and kids with special needs in general, can all have sleep issues and insomnia and anxiety. I definitely have seen that increase in my son. Yes, to answer your question, some of the behaviors have escalated.
Anne: You’d mentioned sleep, when your son or all of your children are having sleep difficulties due to the trauma? How do you practice self-care in a situation that is extremely stressful and difficult?
June: I feel like it’s very important to teach my kids what emotions look like and how we process emotions. I would say, if I’m angry about something or if the kids are angry about something.
The Strategies I Used When He Blamed Me For Emotional Abuse
We will go outside and we will say, I’m angry and that is okay. Giving them those ways to process and handle those emotions is very healthy. It is very healthy for me to have that self-care time and that alone time should I need it. I do find ways and carve out little moments during my day that I can do that.
Self care is so important not only for anyone who’s going through a divorce due to abuse or separation or difficult time.It’s also just for a parent in general of a special needs child because oftentimes you never get a break.
It is important to take that upon yourself to learn how to get yourself some relief when you need it and be able to implement that in your daily routine. The things I do, I mean of course I love bubble baths, but when I’m out and about and dealing with a crisis situation with one of my kids, I can’t really go home and take a bubble bath and just stop everything.
I will practice mindfulness driving in the car like pulling over for five minutes to do some deep breathing.
I will do some grounding exercises and the most important thing is that I’ve taught my children how to do these things too.
They know little exercises there’s one that’s called Take Five where we go through the five senses, we pick out five things that we see. We pick out four things that we hear, three things that we touch, two things that we smell, one thing that we taste, and there’s definitely a neuroscience behind it.
The Legal Challenges Of Being Blamed
It switches your brain into getting out of the fight or flight symptoms and into a more grounded state. If any of my children are experiencing anxiety, we’ll do these simple exercises. We’ll do teddy bear breathing and all of these little cute names that we have for the things that we may do to help.
Anne: For women who are separated and or divorced, like June and I, do get a quote, “break” every other weekend when my kids go with my ex. June is in that same situation right now where her children go with her soon to be ex every other weekend. A lot of people think that divorce solves the problem. It does not. The abuse continues.
We still have to learn how to deal with it. In my case, the abuse is that he’s still lying about what happened. He’s still manipulating people. Also, there’s some physical things that are happening with my kids when they come home and they’ve felt physically unsafe with him. June is in that same situation.
There’s this dichotomy of really enjoying the break and having that be a time of self-care, but also really worrying about our children. When my children (who are neurotypical) come home their behaviors have escalated. It takes a while to get back to normal. They have trouble sleeping or they have trouble with school or trouble with getting up in the morning. It throws their whole schedule off.
There’s this dichotomy between I like the break but I want to protect my kids and it’s really hard. What to do with your emotions when the children are with an abusive dad?
Challenges Of Co-Parenting With An Emotionally Abusive Ex-Husband
June: Yes, and I do want to say that any child that is going through the divorce of their parents experiences trauma even in the best of circumstances. That is traumatic for a child and the impact of trauma, regardless of what it is, even if it’s a minor trauma, major trauma, it really depends on how the child perceives it and the impact is really the same.
Even though your children might be neurotypical, you can still do things to address the trauma that they may be facing, even if it is, like I said, in the best of circumstances. I really identify with what you’re saying. It’s so important to take that break when your children leave so that you can catch up on things that you need to do.
Cleaning for me is like self-care because so often I’m running day to day with the kids and we’re going to appointments and therapies and school and all sorts of things, and sometimes I don’t get a chance to clean something the way that I would need to.
I’ll do that on my weekends and I also take that time to be very reflective and to plan my week because I know I have a big week coming up. On my weekends, I will often look for chances to increase my own learning when it comes to my children with special needs. No one can be blamed if you just need to rest.
Continued Emotional Abuse Post-Divorce
I go to advocacy seminars, disability symposiums, trainings, and parenting classes. Many times in your own community, these things are completely free. You just have to know where to look.
Get involved in your community services board if your community has one, which most communities do. There are lots of organizations, nonprofit organizations in general that will offer these sort of things: National Alliance of Mental Illness and mental health organizations.
There are a lot of places that will give you free training for children who have special needs or just general children who have trauma or parenting neurotypical children with no trauma.
It breaks my heart to know that my children might be feeling unsafe. We have been in that situation before and if they have disclosed that they have felt unsafe or they’ve been uncomfortable with something when they’re not with me. I have really struggled on how to handle that, some things I will bring up to him and say, Hey, the kids have mentioned this. It very easily gets manipulated.
The next time that he sees them he will say, I never said that and you shouldn’t tell mom that, or something like that. In those situations, I’ve really just started to teach my kids what my husband’s gaslighting was without badmouthing him at all. That way I can’t be blamed for it.
I just let them know if someone tries to convince you that something didn’t happen that really did happen or that they didn’t say something that they really did and you know that to be real. That’s gaslighting and they appreciate learning that terminology.
Addressing Children’s Special Needs When Being Blamed For Emotional Abuse
They come to me and say, this person was gaslighting me today. I also try to give them and teach them the tools that they need to handle any situation that they might feel unsafe in.
If they are made to watch a movie that is inappropriate or scary, we will role play and I’ll say, what can you do in this situation? The answers that they come up with are great. They say, I can leave the room. I can say, I don’t want to watch this, I tell them I can be blamed for it not being allowed. You can go in your room and play Legos, or close your eyes and think happy thoughts.
Giving them the tools for handling those difficult situations that I have no control over is so important. I do the same thing for my autistic child that I do for the rest of my children, they can all use those tools and effectively implement them in the situations that they’re in.
Anne: Yeah,I have found that has really helped too. Teaching them about gaslighting, they come home and tell me there was a gaslighting situation or this is what happened, and it was really weird, Mom. We felt really uncomfortable. I am so grateful that they’re starting to see that and that they can tell me how they feel about it.
They have words now to describe what is happening to them. By the way, a lot of people ask when I tell them the situation, they’re like, what? He still can take the kids every other weekend even though he’s done this, this and you had a protective order and he was arrested?
When Legal Proceedings Blame The Victim
A lot of people don’t understand that in many ways the law protects abusers and it’s super traumatic when you start going through the divorce process thinking, oh, we’ll finally feel peace. You start realizing that maybe your attorney or the judge or other people don’t understand abuse. What they’re deciding is actually keeping your kids in a harmful situation.
A lot of people don’t realize that. Then there’s also the abuser’s family who is supportive of him and thinks he’s great. My ex hit my son in the face while playing a video game. My ex’s mother, he lives with his parents, used it as an opportunity to tell my ex (My son overheard.) that my son should be blamed because he must be an addict, which hurt him so much.
He said, I feel so unsafe around grandma. She doesn’t understand the situation. She didn’t even hear the whole truth of it, but immediately she threw me under the bus and supported her abusive son. He came home and told me that. In your case, it even came down to clergy and your faith community.
I just want to put out there that a child with autism or I have another friend who has a daughter who has Down syndrome, can have a Mom who is going through this with her abusive spouse. Many other women that I know have a disabled child while an abusive husband in the home is currently lying and manipulating. He’s currently angry.
What It Feels Like To Parent With An Emotional Abuser
He’s currently looking at online content and a lot of people see the disability and women feel free to talk about the disability, but they don’t want to talk about what’s happening with their spouse. Can you talk about in the past when you didn’t understand you were being abused and the situation in the context of having a child with special needs?
June: There was definitely this intersection where I was handling the situation with my children that have special needs and really trying to learn what I could and advocate for them in the school system and educationally. Also, I was very wrapped up in my marriage failing and why my husband was doing these things and what I could do to help that situation.
We went to marriage counseling and I went to counseling on my own. I learned all I could about problematic behaviors, affairs. I really delved into it all and took it upon myself to try to understand how I could possibly save our marriage and our family and help him.
The Impact of Emotional Abuse
I very much wanted him to succeed and to be a healthy person because I believe that abusive people can change and I believe that people can make mistakes and right those wrongs. I began to learn about abuse.
It was very clear that this situation I was in was taking away from my ability to be the best parent I could be for my own children.
I spent so much time in trauma over and over and over again, Trauma from daily verbal abuse and from emotional manipulation, coercion, spiritual abuse to awful degrees. It impacted my ability to advocate and look into the issues that were going on with my own children and to really be present for that.
Once I realized that was the case saw that this intersection was happening, it was a collision, I couldn’t do both. My son didn’t talk until he was about five years old. He used sign language up until that point. When he did start talking, he jumped right into speaking full sentences and parroting people and echoing what other people were saying.
My son heard the names my husband called me. When I realized that my son would repeat that very soon because he was talking. They were subjected to hearing it, was the point for me that this is not getting any better. In fact, it’s getting worse and this is normalized for my children. I would not be blamed for continuing to expose him to that.
Learning From A Childrens Therapist
How it was impacting my ability to also parent my children in a healthy way was the basis for preparing myself that I might have to be a single mom one day.
Anne: Have you seen your children’s behaviors improve since you started setting a boundary around your husband’s abusive behaviors?
June: Yes, I love talking about this because it is truly amazing when you receive the help that you need and you receive the care and the love and that you feel like you belong somewhere and you feel like people understand you. When I left my marriage, my children and I had all received services at a center for abused women and their children.
Part of this was I would go to a support group and the kids would go to children’s support group. It was led by child therapists and social workers, and I took advantage of their amazing training. I would meet with the child therapists alone on a different day to ask them, how can I help my children going through this very, very difficult and traumatic situation?
I was not to be blamed. The things that I learned from that and the things that my children learned just from going to a support group like that with other children who were experiencing similar things were amazing.
Encouragement For Women In Similar Emotionally Abusive Situations
One of the things we did was to implement a safe space in our home. We set up a little tent in the corner of one of our rooms. It has pillows and it has all sorts of sensory things, bean bags and smelly candles and Play-Doh. It’s like a designated space for working through those things that they feel.
We also use time-ins instead of time-outs, if one of my children is having some difficult behaviors or being very irritable or not getting along with the other children. Instead of putting them in timeout, their behavior is a call for help and their behavior is communication. The first thing about trauma-informed care is that all behavior is communication.
What my child is communicating with me at that time when they are acting out is that they need help processing what they’re feeling. Instead of being blamed they are being helped.
I take them aside and we do an emotional check-in or we’ll play a short game about what they felt that day. Tell me a time that you felt brave, or lonely, or happy today. Those times we do that and set aside for even just a five minute conversation, can help push the reset button on their behavior.
It really gets them back on track where they need to be. That is a coping mechanism that is teaching them emotional intelligence and how to process those feelings.
Anne: For other women who have a child with special needs, who find themselves in an abusive situation. They start realizing that these fights that they’re getting into with their spouse are actually verbal abuse. Their husband is lying or using without their knowledge. What advice would you give them?
Challenges In Being Blamed: Leaving An Emotionally Abusive Husband
June: I would definitely say to inform yourself and to educate yourself. The more empowered that you can be in your situation to identify what is going on, the better off you will be in handling whatever happens and whatever you decide and whatever comes your way. I also feel like it is essential to stress that I am a much better parent being out of that situation.
I can now focus on my children. It’s like this whole new world has opened up to me about kiddos that deal with trauma and special needs and how to best mentor them and help them through these things and advocate for them.
It takes advocacy on every level in the community, in schools, even in churches. You really have to educate other people and you as the parent are the expert on your child and being in an abusive relationship can hinder that. It can take away some of the ability that you have to really focus on the children that need it.
I cannot stress enough how much my parenting has changed. How much my life has really opened up. My eyes have opened up to a whole new world helping children with special needs or children with trauma or any child in the best and healthiest way.
Anne: As she shares her story, take deep breaths and remember that she is on her way to safety and will get there eventually, getting to safety is a journey. Also, before we start, I want to talk about how women start this journey. They don’t think their husbands are abusive. Being blamed is so painful. They think, okay, we’ve got this problem, he’s got an anger problem or he has an addiction problem, the trauma symptoms aren’t as bad.
Finding Harmful Content On Her Husband’s Computer
Trauma symptoms are lower because a woman thinks that the situation is manageable or that things can get better. Then as she learns more and realizes that it’s abuse and starts to try to confront the abuser and the abuse gets worse, then the trauma gets worse. When you set a boundary around the abuse and it doesn’t stop, but it escalates, then the trauma becomes even worse.
For listeners, I don’t want anyone to think, oh, things are getting worse. This is really bad, and so it’s the wrong thing to do. It’s the right thing to do and it’s the only way out. June, let’s talk about how you met your husband and when you first suspected that he was using exploitative content.
June: I met my husband when I was in college and everything seemed great. He was the man of my dreams. I was young, in my early twenties, when he came along.
I didn’t have too much of a problem with it because he came across so well, my family liked him. He checked all the boxes that I was raised to believe meant he was a safe and worthy person. We ended up getting married, and I remember I was sitting on the bed in our first year of marriage using his computer for something, and I happened to look in one of the files and I saw a bunch of photos from a topless beach.
Recognizing When He Blames YOU For The Emotional Abuse
I was shocked. It was very clear that these were homemade photos. It wasn’t like he downloaded these, this was like homemade photos taken of women on this topless beach. I had known that he had spent some time in a place that had a topless beach. He was in some of the pictures with a friend of his, so I confronted him about it and he gaslit that away and manipulated it and said, oh, he blamed his friend.
He just never deleted them from the device. Looking back, that was my first real D-Day. That was such a little thing compared to everything that has happened since, but that was definitely a huge red flag. If I could go back and speak to the former June in that time, I would teach her that that was a huge red flag and to pay a lot closer attention than she did.
Anne: Why do you think women in this situation dismiss those little experiences? They’re really big experiences, but why do we say they’re little? Not that they should be blamed.
June: I think that we want to believe in the good of people and someone doing something like that, that’s voyeuristic. I would say it’s also stalking, but it goes beyond that. We don’t want to believe that anyone is capable of that and that’s foreign. It’s foreign to me because I have no propensity to really do that, and so we want to believe the best in people.
The Extent Of Being Blamed For Emotional Abuse
These are men that we love. We want to save our families. We want everyone to be healthy and happy. It’s not hard for someone to come in and say, Hey, these weren’t my pictures. Here’s what happened, and give us an explanation. For us to just take them at their word and believe it. Definitely throughout our dating and throughout our marriage, there was abuse all along.
I had reached out to people. I’d reached out to my parents, to friends and other family members. I told them what was going on.
He called very, very horrific names. I remember one time even when we were dating. We had been in a fight about something and I went into the bathroom, shut the door and was sitting down on the floor with the lights off. He came in there and was just yelling over me, the B word over and over and over again. I was huddled in this corner, oh my gosh, what is he doing?
We had probably only been dating a few months by the time that situation had happened, and still he had said he was sorry afterwards. There was a point when he came into my apartment and decorated my whole room with rose petals. I look back, this is a textbook abusive cycle, the love bombing, the apologies.
Then the explosion and the honeymoon phase and then building up the tension and the explosion and the love bombing. It was just very much like that, but every time he would apologize. He just blamed something else for his behavior.
Being Stuck In The Abuse Cycle With Your Husband
I would stay because he’d said he would get better and then it would happen again. Then he would apologize and I would stay and every time that he apologized, things did get better until the next time..
You become invested in how the relationship is. In the first year of marriage, it was a lot of verbal abuse. I would tell people, and nobody else really picked up on it. They were like, marriage is hard.
Anne: He must be stressed.
June: And all this while, I found out later, he was calling friends and family members and gaining rapport with them. Saying that he’s concerned about June because she seems like she’s depressed and really gaslighting me to my family, really for the next 12 years he blamed me. He had done this as the abuse was on and off just like an abusive cycle would be.
All the while he was gaining this trust of my family and of my friends when things escalated to the point that I had to leave. That made it extremely difficult for me because I did not trust some of my family at that point.
Anne: Talk about when you actually started realizing that the behaviors that you were seeing were abusive as opposed to just thinking that he had an anger problem or that he was a addict. Talk about how you made that shift to realizing that these things were abusive.
Seeking Social Support During Divorce From An Emotionally Abusive Man
June: There were things all along the way that I look back on, these were all red flags and I missed them. He would chat online inappropriately with women and he would tell me about it. I don’t know why I didn’t have the capacity to understand what was going on, like I said, he would always apologize and I would always stay.
It was not until I had a friend that reached out to me and confided in me about her situation with her husband who has some very, very problematic behaviors, use and infidelity and things like that, voyeurism. She said, I just have a feeling that I need to be there for you and ask you if you’ve ever thought that your husband is like that. I don’t know what she picked up from my husband.
She didn’t really know him very well, and maybe it was things that she picked up on in me. There was definitely a change when I was going through some things privately that maybe she could pick up on. She just shared her story and that night I came home and I just asked my husband, is this an issue for you?
I started tying some of those situations together. There was a time that he had come home and I was 37 weeks pregnant. He said, this woman attacked me in my office, and I was like, oh my gosh, this sounds so dangerous. She was trying to come on to him he blamed her. Well, in reality, I found out that they had been conducting an affair on the hospital’s messaging system.
When You’re Blamed For Your Own Emotional Abuse
He had gone to her office, shut the door and locked it, and there was some kind of encounter, and I was 37 weeks pregnant. When I found that out, he shrugged it off. He had no idea what was going on, and he just blamed her. We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We went to our ecclesiastical leader who is called the bishop in our church.
He has really no training to be able to identify abuse or handle infidelity or marital problems.
He is a volunteer. We are going to him, and now I look back and I’m thinking, this situation is just so prime for mishandling. Here we are, we’re talking to someone about this huge situation, and yet nobody really picked up on the gravity of it. We went to our bishop and learned some more things about the situation that I felt like I needed to know.
I think my bishop was kind of in shock. He didn’t really know what to say. My husband talked his way out of it. I was 37 weeks pregnant. This was my fourth child. I had three other children under the age of five at the time, one of whom had profound special needs.
Finding BTR.ORG & Feeling Relief From The Blame
There’s no way I believed him when he said it was not his fault. We had our baby and things kind of went back to normal and normal for us. Which was a lot of abuse. I just remember a few months after my baby was born, it was the summer and I had taken all of my kids to go see a movie in the park and to play.
My husband was at work and he had just been nasty to me and hanging up on me all day. I’m just thinking, what did I do? What is going on with him and how do I deal with this situation? The confusion was extremely difficult. After that, I started learning more about addiction, behaviors, use.
I found BTR, which was a beacon of light to me in this situation. I listened to all of the podcasts every single week, I would just wait for the next one to come out. For the first time I had a label of what I was feeling. I didn’t know what this was. When I learned about betrayal trauma, I could understand these symptoms.
This is trauma that happens to someone when they are in the situation of being betrayed by someone that they trust implicitly. When I would listen to the BTR episodes, I remember listening to your story and how horrific it was, but also at the same time, I didn’t place myself in that category. I still didn’t, but the more that I listened and the more that you would talk about covert abuse, the more that connected with me up to that point.
I Was Being Blamed: Escalation of Abuse
There was no outright physical abuse yet. The covert abuse that you would describe was very, very much the same of what I was experiencing. The manipulation and the lying and the psychological harm, even the spiritual abuse. That is one thing that I started connecting with and learning about, and that opened my eyes to seeing and really identifying that I was in a very bad abusive relationship.
Anne: You’re listening to me. I’m sharing my story. You’re thinking, whoa, I’m really relating to this. When did his behaviors escalate to actual physical violence?
June: His behaviors started escalating when I started finding out more and more about some of the extreme problems that he was having. I found out about several inappropriate relationships that he had had with people at his work. He was in a very powerful position. These were people who were under him, so it was an abuse of power. He always blamed the women.
He’s actually licensed also by the state. I knew that could be a very bad situation for him as far as that goes. When I started finding out about this, he would come to tell me and confess these things. It was almost as a way of him gaining my trust.
Anne: My ex did the same thing. He would tell me part of it. The way he would say it was manipulating it so I would view it in a certain way to help him rather than me. I realized later that this was dangerous. What was happening probably should have been reported to the police.
Realities Of Divorcing An Emotional Abuser
Anne: My ex did the same thing. He would tell me part of it. He would say it was manipulating it so I would view it in a certain way to help him rather than me. I realized later that this was dangerous. What was happening probably should have been reported to the police.
June: Exactly. So he would come and tell me these things and say, “ There’s an inappropriate encounter with someone at his work.”, or “This woman sent me these unsolicited pictures of her in a compromising position” or “wearing nothing”. He always blamed the women.These things all accumulated. My husband ended up moving out for two months or so.
He was in therapy with a therapist who claimed to treat addiction and problematic behaviors and everything. I had started therapy on my own and we had gone to therapy together with each of our therapists. They were at the same facility. We had met with them maybe once or twice. My therapist easily identified that I was in an abusive situation. His therapist did not.
Anne: Yeah, we’ve noticed that so much with so-called Addiction Experts. They do not identify the abuse and they’re not helping keep the wives of addicts safe at all. It’s really actually pretty scary and dangerous
June: We were really trying to work things out. He was going to SA meetings and he had shown a lot of humility and improvement. I remember thinking, if this is the man that could be with me all the time, that is who I want. He did move back in and we had a pretty good, I’d say six to eight months of progress.
Establishing Safety During Abuse & Blame
Then things started to slip again, and it was more verbal abuse that started creeping in. It was more psychological abuse. It was these things that would start to come back in and I would ask him, is anything going on with people at work? These abusive behaviors are a really, really big red flag for me.
I had tied it altogether at that point, I had tied the verbal abuse to the other problematic behaviors, and he just insisted, no, no, it wasn’t.
He just came to me one day out of the blue and said, I have actually been lying to you and there’s three women who I’ve had inappropriate relationships with off and on. I am using again, and it was like a D-Day all over again. I’ve given him my trust in thinking he’s a safe person. I’ve let him move back in.
I have overcome part of that betrayal trauma to be able to be intimate with him again and to be able to really want to work on our marriage.
When I found that out, it was a huge D date. You have been lying to me this whole time and you are not a safe person, and at that time, I asked him to move out again. He wouldn’t. He became very mean, very irate, very scary. I received a message from somebody anonymously about his reputation at his workplace and that he made people feel uncomfortable.
There was even one that described a certain situation where he assaulted a female in this closet at work. Once again he blamed her. He was sleeping downstairs, and I went downstairs and I asked him about this and he demanded to see my phone.
June Discovers Even More Abuse & Her Husband Blamed Her
I said, no, you can’t see my phone, and I went upstairs and he was running after me. At that point, I was very, very scared. I had just found out that this person was very unsafe.
Also had confirmation of this from someone who worked with him, and here he was running after me trying to get my phone. I ran upstairs, he pushed me into a wall. He tackled me. He got my phone. I scratched him. I’m five five and I weigh 140 pounds. He’s six six and he weighs 220, so I did whatever I could. I was very, very scared for my life because I had no phone.
I ran outside to a neighbor’s house and called the police. When the police came, they looked at him and they looked at me and he had a scratch mark. It was a male police officer and I was incoherent. I was in trauma, I couldn’t really describe anything of what had happened, I was just trying to process it myself. I had no visible bruising yet, or marks or anything that was bleeding. That did show up a few days later.
He went inside and my husband was just bawling and he blamed me for the whole thing. The police officer said, well, I have to take you away because he has these visible injuries, and so I was taken away that night. I was arrested and sat in the holding area for just a few hours and then they let me go back home. I didn’t have anyone that I could call to pick me up.
Support To Face Blame During Divorce
I have no family around. Nobody really knew what was going on in my situation in my marriage. I felt very much a sense of shame and I couldn’t call anyone and say, I’ve been arrested. Come and pick me up. There was just nobody that would understand that. My husband did call one of his friends who was actually from our church. Looking back, I see that he had set this up.
The more empowered I would become, he would say the more crazy I would get to this friend, and so I think he could see that I was becoming empowered and stronger and being able to identify abuse. At the same time, he was telling people that I was becoming more depressed or more and more angry.
I retained a lawyer and I had injuries of my own, which I had someone take pictures of, and that case was dismissed, but I knew I was in a very unsafe situation. At the library I did research on domestic violence and abuse. I learned that 40% of women who are in abusive relationships, had their partner blamed them and have them arrested for abuse for fighting back.
Suddenly in the shame of that situation, I was able to understand that this was no fault of my own. I also felt more empowered and safer to reach out to people and say, look, my husband did this to me and he had me arrested. He accused me of abuse, and I slowly started gaining support of a few people just in a very close knit circle that I could trust and could see what was going on.
I Was Blamed By My Clergy For His Abuse
It was just a few months after that things really started escalating. My husband started using my arrest as leverage. He said that if I ever left, he would get custody of our children have this history. He blamed me for the whole situation, he said I would be out on the street. I wouldn’t have anywhere to live. It was very much held over me. The abuse just escalated from that point. He got a free pass.
I did reach out to the bishop when I found out about more incidents and many other indiscretions, and my husband and I went to meet with the bishop at that point. After my arrest and after he had confessed a bunch of things to me. The bishop was meeting with my husband privately. They met for probably about 45 minutes before the door finally opened.
I went in and I said, I am really at my wit’s end. I’m thinking that this is not a safe situation and I need support. The bishop looked at me and he said, you need to be a better wife and mom and your husband has told me everything that has happened. You are angry. He called me a feminist.
Anne: Which is not a bad word, by the way. Great word. Thank you for the compliment, sir.
When Your Church Community Won’t Protect You From Abuse
June: It became clear that my husband had gone in there and just said all of these things. June wants to go back to school and I don’t feel like she needs to do that. The bishop said, you don’t need to go back and get your master’s degree. What are you even thinking? You need to just be a better wife and mom and your husband is dissatisfied, he blamed me for my husbands actions. You need to give him more.
Basically, I very clearly saw what was happening. I started just speaking my mind and I said, this is not okay. You cannot be saying this. This is not okay. My bishop started to ask me details of things that I had done when I was a teenager. He said, your husband said that you were not faithful. I said things I did as a teenager have no bearing on any of this.
First of all, I’m a married mother of four and I’m 34 years old. You do not need to be asking me these questions. I didn’t even have the wherewithal to understand what he was doing. I look back now and I see that shamed me for something that I had done a long time ago.
He was trying to shame me into stopping the complaints or pointing the finger about how abusive my husband was.
When The Blame Doesn’t Stop
Anne: He was trying to silence you, right, and say, look, you are the one that’s the problem. Stop causing all this hullabaloo and take your place as a wife and mother. He blamed you for the abuse.
June: The questioning continued. My bishop said that if I submitted myself to him that he could fix me and that he has a very special way with women. That he has insight into women and that he has a unique ability to fix them and fix their problems and help them. It was so far out that I could identify it as inappropriate.
I went there thinking that I would feel safe and protected and loved, and I knew that something was going terribly, terribly wrong. I didn’t have the language to say, this is harassment. It’s inappropriate questioning. It is verbal abuse. It is blaming, it’s rationalizing, it’s deflecting. It’s projecting. I can name exactly what was happening, but at that time I didn’t.
It was so confusing to me why he was asking me these things and why he was taking the position that he did.
I eventually tried to teach him a little bit about trauma, use, infidelity, and abuse and how it all ties in together. He stood up, his face got very red, he yelled at me.
Secondary Emotional Abuse, Being Blamed By Clergy
He said, I’m exhausted and I don’t know what else you want from me. I’m trying to take care of all of these people and you’re making my job difficult and you need to listen to me.
It was very scary, I came to him disclosing that I had experienced verbal abuse. That was very triggering for me. It was very, very traumatizing. I got up out of his office and I actually ran out of the church. It was probably 11 o’clock at night at that point. Nobody else was there.
I had immediately called a friend and I called my mom and explained what happened. From that point on, I had tried to take it up to the person above him. Which is the stake president, like a hierarchy, and explain what happened. This bishop’s behavior, and his questioning was inappropriate. Things are happening in my home that are terribly wrong and I need some help.
The stake president said, I don’t believe the bishop did that. I tried. I tried to report to whoever I could report it to, but there’s really nothing else I could do.
Anne: This story is getting really intense, I’m just going to recap really quickly. She starts recognizing that her husband is abusive. Goes in to see if she can get some help from her clergy, and ends up being emotionally abused by her clergy as well. At this point, June, you’re realizing that you can’t get help from clergy and you need to turn somewhere else. What do you do next?
Moving Forward, Despite Emotional Abuse With Divorce Proceedings
June: I start educating myself. I listened to BTR, I found a lot of comfort and guidance in really identifying the behaviors that I was seeing in my own home from my husband as abusive behaviors. I became empowered enough and informed enough and I did initiate separation. His behavior escalated phenomenally during that time. The name calling was getting much worse.
I had no lawyer. We had no legal separation. I had consulted a couple of lawyers, trying to figure out what the situation would be like. I do suggest that informing yourself is paramount, it’s key. When we would exchange the children, he would come into my home and yell and throw things around.
He berated me for the children’s clothing. When he moved out, he packed up all of his guns and laid them in the hallway.
The kids and I were in the house and it was very obvious that he was doing that as physical intimidation. One day he picked up the kids. He called me horrific names. My children were there. He came inside my house. He wanted to pack up some of their clothes because he said I didn’t do it right.
It was demeaning, demanding, very scary behavior. After seeing this behavior, I did not feel safe sending my kids with him. They were all in the car and I went and I got in the car with them and he grabbed me from the car and threw me on the driveway in front of my children. Then he drove away with my kids in the car. He left me lying on the driveway. I was hysterical, traumatized.
When Law Enforcement Blames The Victim
He injured me. I had an abrasion on my elbow. He tore my clothes in several places. I had bruising on my hip. I called the police. The police came. It was so scary because of what had happened last time when I called the police. My injuries were visible at this point. He still had the children.
The police officer came. He assessed the situation. He talked to my husband who has a prominent position in our community, and he introduced himself with his title, which is impressive to people. I remained calm and I told the police officer what happened. I showed him my injuries and the police officer said that he could leave. The children ended up staying with me, which I was grateful for.
I still to this day have no idea how he didn’t get arrested given the injuries.
Anne: Manipulated the law enforcement.
June: That weekend he called me several times. The next day he came to my house, tried to get in the door, knocking on the door, calling friends and family of mine. He called a bunch of our friends and told them that I was crazy. Meanwhile, I am just trying to figure out how I’m going to survive this situation with an obviously dangerous and abusive person.
I had no time to call anybody to make them see my side of it. That was just not in my capacity. I had this injury, trying to figure out what in the world I needed to do to keep myself and my family safe. I was able to get a restraining order.
The Consequences Of Emotional Abuse
Anne: How did you feel when you went to file the protective order? Did you feel like, what am I doing? How is this happening?
June: Yeah. I was very scared that I wouldn’t be believed first of all because that is what was happening all around me. I was being blamed as the instigator, the angry and scorned woman. Of course I had felt angry. My anger was not driving any of this. My need for safety was.
Anne: By the way, this story. I know it’s horrific and difficult for our listeners to hear this. This is really typical for abuse victims. This period of confusion and what is happening, and he’s blamed you and nobody can understand this is exactly what happened. It happened to me too, but this type of manipulation and coercion with people around is exactly what we start to see. Women can feel like they’re going crazy.
June: Yes, he left me on the side of the road several times when he got angry at me in the car. He would just pull over and kick me out of the car and I would be left there for hours, in different places in front of my children. He withdrew money from our bank account, so I couldn’t buy groceries at this point. I couldn’t buy a birthday cake for my child who had a birthday that day.
He was of course very verbally abusive, but mentally and psychologically and socially aggressive to me and in ways that I couldn’t even recognize because I didn’t know it was going on.
Emotional Abuse & Blame Began When She First Got Married
I didn’t know that he was calling our mutual friends without me present and telling them these stories and painting me as this person who had all of these mental issues.
He would also very frequently embarrass me in public situations that we were together, and make jokes at my expense. He would demean me and be very coercive, trying to get me to do things that I wasn’t comfortable with.
Anne: When you started recognizing the behaviors, did you recognize that he was this way all along, but you just hadn’t seen it?
June: Yes. The trauma became so much greater when I started realizing that I his abuse started from the beginning. On our honeymoon to a foreign country he told me he wanted a divorce. What was he even talking about?
He wanted to leave me in the jungle, alone, in this foreign country. I had no idea how to speak their language or anything. It was very scary. Things like that were happening, but then I would also be so grateful when he would make it right and when he wouldn’t behave in those ways.
It was like this huge relief, it’s almost like he became accustomed to the love bombing and the apology and the honeymoon period that happens.
Getting A Restraining Order But Still He Blamed Me For The Emotional Abuse
The restraining order was for myself and my children. For three days I knew that we were to be safe and secure and left alone. I was unsure if he would even abide by the restraining order. Then, I did make the decision to file for divorce at that point. I went to my parent’s house with my children.
My parents live in a different part of the country, but legally I knew that I needed that protection. I needed to go ahead and file for the divorce and be away from the situation. My children and I left in the middle of the night. We had nothing really packed. We drove for a few days and lived with my parents for about four months. While I filed the paperwork for the actual divorce.
It was over the summer. The kids were in summer camps and in all sorts of activities. I received great services from a women’s center. My children received great services at the same place, and it was very much a time of healing and a time of safety and security. Now, it’s not to say that he didn’t abuse that situation.
He would call every day and demanded that it would be on video, which I did facilitate because I was trying to remain reasonable. He would call at all hours of the day, even into the night. Once I couldn’t answer my phone and he called the police to do a well child check in the middle of the night, which was very scary to my children and to me.
My Emotionally Abusive Husband Cut Of Access To Money
I had asked him also for money to buy diapers for my children, pay for medication and pay for food. I had very little money with me, but I had no means of paying for those things. Before I left in fact, he had taken all of the money that we had, cut me off and transferred it to an account that I did not have access to.
June: I was living on credit cards,
Anne: Took all the money away so you can’t even buy groceries, right? Yeah, that happened to me.
June: I had started on food stamps when I went to this different state. It was purely by knowing that he would not make this right. By getting the restraining order and setting boundaries, his behavior escalated. That was really an answer to me that I did the right thing, because he wasn’t supporting his children. I donated plasma to get some money. We were living with my parents. They supported me and my four children.
At that point, I really liked where we were living. We were around family. His family had also lived nearby. We had seen his family when we were out there. The kids saw their cousins and they were excited about that. I am in a state that very much expects parents to co-parent and to work with each other. It was clear that we would not be able to agree or decide on something that was reasonable together.
Being Blamed By The Court System
We went to court. Unfortunately, there is not a way that the law identifies covert abuse or emotional abuse.
Anne: We see that over and over again where the law does not protect victims of emotional abuse from perpetrators. If there’s no physical evidence and he’s lying and manipulating, there’s no protection for victims. That leaves all of the burden of protecting yourself on the victims themselves.
June: The courts like to give people a chance
Anne: That’s never helpful. If the court held them accountable, it would be more helpful to get the perpetrator to actually make changes and for the victim to be safe.
I think there’s a serious problem in our country right now protecting abusers and it’s scary for the victims.
June: When I walked into the courthouse for our hearing, I didn’t know how it was going to go, and I immediately saw a friend of mine. We had gone to church together and we had done a few other things. She was in a similar situation. She had divorced an abusive person who had an affair. I saw her at the courthouse and she wouldn’t look at me.
My first initial thought was like, oh my goodness, what is she doing here? Maybe she’s here to say hi to me or to support me. She was there with my husband and she was a witness.
Blamed Even By Friend’s
She testified that I planned to kidnap my kids.
When that happened, I put it together that they were in a relationship, they were having an affair. I had some other information from a few other people, other evidences of that. I realized what was happening. He manipulated her and blamed me. She did not know the reality of the situation, she knew about the abuse. She knew about the verbal abuse.
I confided in her my fear and I said, I need to have a plan in place, and so that was the extent of the conversation. She had come to court and said that I had planned to kidnap my kids and make up the assault. My husband manipulated her and blamed me.
The damage she caused to me and my children was irreparable. That was a very traumatic moment. It was horrific to realize that while I was in this really dire situation, living with my parents, with my four kids, that he was here having an affair with her and choosing not to support his kids and actively working to discredit me with an employee of the city.
Divorce Proceedings With Husband Still Perpetrating Emotional Abuse
June: Yes, so I came back here and trying to co-parent. My children had experienced trauma, they had anxiety. They were unsure of what kind of situation we were coming back to. I wanted to make that as smooth as I could for them. When I did get back here, I came to the home that I would be living in. It was unkempt.
He took anything he wanted, furniture, valuables. Also, he had left a piece of chewed gum as a message to me. He always said divorced women were like chewed gum. He had disassembled locks and doorknobs from the house.
There were feminine products that were clogging the plumbing of the house.
He had taken the liberty of having people in the church move my personal belongings, my intimate clothing and my children’s clothing. We had no discussion about it. That kind of set the stage for how the period of time since I’ve been back has gone.
Emotional Abuse, Blame From Clergy
He does these things blatantly and there really is no recourse. I’ve asked him for some of my belongings and some of the things that he took without permission. I didn’t get any of that back. That’s been a hard thing. When I did return, I went to church. I made the effort to co-parent and keep my kids as stable as possible.
When I went back to see this bishop. I was actually with my father and he went in with me. I felt safer because my dad was there with me.
Anne: For those of you not familiar with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Instead of choosing the congregation that you go to. You find out where your congregation boundaries are and you go there.
That’s why June didn’t just go to a different church because her boundaries were those particular boundaries and that’s what everyone does within the church. I wanted to give you some background on that as to why she didn’t think, oh, I’ll just go somewhere else.
June: Yes, exactly. I went to my bishop with my father. I said, I don’t know if you know about the situation, but I’m happy to share with you the things that have happened and what my children and I have been through. We’re going to be coming to church here. He stopped me and said, I know that you kidnapped your kids.
Clergy & Church Community Did Not Help, Instead Blamed Me For The Emotional Abuse
Everyone says that you kidnapped your kids and you have got a serious issue. It was so uncomfortable. I said to him, I didn’t kidnap my own children. First of all, I had a restraining order. Would you like to see it? And I said, my husband is not paying support. He hasn’t been supporting us. I don’t think he should have a calling.
The bishop said, I don’t care about any of that. That stuff does not matter. He didn’t want to see any of the documentation I had. I mentioned to him that my husband was having an affair with another single woman in the ward, and he had no intention of discussing any of that. It was so uncomfortable. By that time I had really learned how to set boundaries and I saw that this was not a good situation.
I just stopped the entire discussion and left. The bishop didn’t hear my side of the story or look at any of the evidence that I had. He had made his mind up. There were a couple of other things that had happened from that point on in our church.
The women have an organization called Relief Society, it is for providing support for the women in the church and those who are in need and ministering to women.
When Church Blamed Me & Refused To Help
I had called the president of the Relief Society and reached out to her about my situation. My husband was still not paying support. We were going to have to garnishee his wages. That could take a period of time to set up.
I was very much in need at that point, I exhausted all of my credit cards, all of my resources that I had. I was in need of food for my children and had nothing to pay for any other bills. If I can get some food for my children for the next few weeks, that is one weight that I don’t have to worry about, at least for right now.
Anne: The church has a bishop’s storehouse where members of the church who are in need can get food, and that’s what she’s talking about.
June: The Relief Society met with me. We had a discussion. I described what was going on, I did not say that my husband was abusive. I didn’t berate or demean the bishop in any way, I just explained to her my need and she called me up a few days later.
She said she had spoken with the bishop and she didn’t believe that my husband could afford to pay the support that the court ordered. The bishop was also saying this. I told her I actually have no money. It was clear that the bishop had that information from my husband. Clearly my husband said he couldn’t afford to pay for it.
Husband’s Emotional Abuse Expands To Clergy
He declined to help me and my children with food. They said, I need my children to have some food. That’s it. He said, you’re not being truthful with me. You’re not being honest. Your husband said that he would never leave you or the children in this situation.
He was just believing my husband. I said, he hasn’t given me anything. I have not received anything. He took a lot of the food that was in this house. I have texts and emails of many of these interactions. The bishop came to me a few days later and wanted me to meet with one of his counselors who is actually a lawyer. I had reached out to my own lawyer at that point.
She said, that is grounds for filing a complaint against that lawyer.
That’s grounds for disbarment. You cannot do that. We have an open custody case and divorce proceedings and no one should be asking you to meet with someone else who is a lawyer. I declined to do that. The bishop said that he wanted to go over my finances and that the lawyer, his counselor would be there to help.
I showed the bishop screenshots of my bank account and the bills that that I had no way to pay. He said, you can have some food. I think I had two orders, and then I went to place an order with the Relief Society president. At 10 o’clock at night, and the bishop actually texted me back and said, there will be no more food. If you need food, you need to come in and meet with me and the state president.
Emotional Abuse When The Chuch Blames Me
These were the same leaders. One of them had abused me and the other had enabled that abuse, and so I was not going to meet with them under any circumstances alone or with someone. That was not a situation I was going to put myself in. He cut off the food and my children and I didn’t receive any more assistance in that manner from my church. I’ll tell you, that was a very, very dark time.
That was very, very difficult. The year before that we paid 10% of our income to the church in voluntary donations for tithes. Here I was now in this situation having no income for myself. My husband wasn’t paying the support and I needed basic things for my children.
I became a bad person for even asking for that and labeled a liar. I look back now and it is a miracle that I even survived that time. The darkness that I felt from betrayal in so many ways, on so many levels and by so many people was so great. I did set the boundary that I would not attend that congregation anymore.
I knew that was no longer going to be a safe place for me or my children when they were in my care. That was a tough decision. I did know that my safety was first. My children’s safety was first and my family’s safety was first.
Being Far Away From Family When He Blamed You For Emotional Abuse
Anne: . You’re still in divorce proceedings. How have the divorce proceedings gone?
June: We have been in and out of court for almost two years now. When you’re going through divorce in the courts, you have to deal with things like custody and support and visitation, and you have to decide all of these things. If you cannot decide it together, then you go to court. He has violated the order several times in small ways, small ways that I really have no way to address.
He has sworn at me during exchanges and does things to try and elicit a reaction or a response. I never respond, I never react. I have learned to know what I can control and what I cannot control and let the rest go. Going in and out of court has obviously been very expensive. It’s been very time consuming.
Anne: I want to stress that you are in a part of the country that is completely, totally far away from your family and support system.
June: Not only do I not have family here, but because I stepped away from the church and because I have the experiences with my bishop and my state president that I have had. The congregation alienated and ostracized me. They enabled the wrongs committed right in front of them.
Soldiering On Despite Continuation of Emotional Abuse
Many people knew that my husband was having this affair, and yet everyone chose to ostracize me. I’m not considered a person who has a testimony anymore because if I had a testimony, why wouldn’t I be coming to church and I’m painted as this feminist who has gone crazy.
I have also received some very, very troubling evidence that the bishop is defaming me in the community and that members, individual church members are doing the same thing.
They use the same language, they use the same words, they use the same phrases to describe me. They talk about my divorce and they talk about the state of my mental health, and it’s very damaging. It’s troubling, and there’s no way again that I can really address it.
Yes, I’m going back and forth to court doing the best I can for my children, trying to advocate for my children. All have special needs in some way or another, and trying to co-parent with a person who will not co-parent in return. He will use every situation to abuse or manipulate in some way.
When I Discovered He Blamed Me For The Emotional Abuse
All the while just feeling very alone in what I’m going through.
Anne: Yeah, it stinks. It’s really bad. I was thinking of different things we could put on Facebook and one of ’em was it’s really, really bad. We get it because during this situation, so many people try to tell me or you or other victims, it’ll be okay. It’s not as bad as you think it is. It’s really, really, really bad. You are in a super bad situation.
What helps give you peace when you’re having a really difficult time?
June: It’s interesting. I have cultivated an authenticity in myself that brings me a lot of peace and the relationships that I have now. Although they may be few, they’re meaningful to me because there are people that I do feel very safe with. There are people that have seen the other side of life and how awful and ugly it can be. They still love me and we understand each other.
There’s a sense of empathy that comes with going through trials like this that many people, I think never really get the chance to cultivate within themselves. Standing in my truth and knowing that I have survived. I have survived some of the worst situations that I had ever imagined I’d ever be in.
I will continue to survive, I’ll continue to build resilience and I’ll continue to reach out to others. To gain community and connection with those who have also survived horrific, horrible and unbelievable trials in their lives. That gives me a lot of peace, that sense of community with others who know.
Advice For Other Women Experiencing Emotional Abuse
Anne: Yeah, because you’re still in the thick of things with nothing being final. He’s still doing all these things that are just not right. I hope that you do have a little glimmer of hope that things will get better eventually.
What advice would you have for other women who are in a situation that is really difficult like yours?
June: Learning about boundaries is crucial. You have got to learn about boundaries and how to set them appropriately. If someone is saying inappropriate things to you. Or if someone is not offering you wise or sound or righteous counsel. You need to be able to recognize that and empower yourself to leave that situation immediately.
You don’t even have to explain. Cultivating your own worth within yourself. Knowing that you are a worthwhile and wonderful and lovable and amazing person as you are. In these situations, our worth seems to suffer. How we feel about ourselves seems to really plummet.
It’s important to be able to hold on to the knowledge and the core belief that you are worth it. That you do not deserve to be abused, lied to, manipulated and cheated on or blamed. That you deserve safety and happiness and security and peace. You deserve peace in your life.
Anne: Yeah. When you started recognizing, okay, I need to start setting boundaries, did you imagine that it would get this bad?
When The Emotional Abuse Escalates
A lot of women don’t realize, okay, I’m making my way to safety. This is cool, but they don’t realize it’s going to get a lot worse. Can you talk about that?
June (01:16:39): It definitely can escalate with an unhealthy person. Boundaries will make them escalate, and they will make them more abusive and behave in more unhealthy ways. With a healthy person, I believe boundaries can be great. They will respond in a healthy and respectful way. That was not the case in my situation. When I set the boundary, it escalated things astronomically.
I could have been more prepared, although I knew that the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she decides to separate. It’s dangerous when she initiates separation or when she decides to leave that relationship. Really, when a woman would set those boundaries.
Anne: Yeah. I think a lot of women hear about boundaries, and for some women, their spouse is like, oh, this is a boundary, and they realize that they need to change and they change. It’s a miracle and it’s amazing, but a lot of women don’t talk about when you set that boundary, things escalate and that is terrifying to think about.
Women are more prepared for the escalation of the abuse as they start to make their way towards safety and knowing that doesn’t mean you’re doing the wrong thing. You’re going to be blamed and accused of abuse. It is part of the process of getting to safety. I think it would maybe help women be a little bit more prepared for what’s going to happen.
Difficulties Trying To Protect Yourself From His Emotional Abuse
June: Yes. I really wish that local women’s shelters and local resources and organizations that address domestic violence and domestic abuse would be more acknowledging of that fact. I called and said, I was experiencing abuse, I don’t know what to do.
If you need to leave very quickly, have the children’s medication and their birth certificates and important papers, you need to get a little bit of money and have those things ready. Well, that’s not a hard thing to do.
Anne: I was going to say, that’s the easy part.
June: Right? That is very basic. Okay. What they don’t tell you is that if your spouse or your significant other who is abusive, reacts in an unhealthy way to these boundaries. Years of legal abuse, years of being blamed and years of financial abuse. I mean, I can’t even begin to describe how this abuse has affected my credit.
We share loans together that he just won’t pay.Those are things that I wish that I would have known. I am fully aware that they want to get women to safety. What is hard is I don’t find a lot of resources that address the long-term subjection to abuse.
Lots of these women do end up suffering when they set the boundary to leave.
Hoping For Safety from Emotional Abuse
Anne: And the abuse doesn’t end. The person continues to lie. They continue to manipulate, if you have children with that person, then it really doesn’t end. We have to learn how to figure out how to be peaceful. How can I find strength through this long-term trial? Because it is a very, very difficult situation for a very long time,
June: And so many states expect you to co-parent, and so you need to know those options legally. You have got to consult an attorney, know the law in your state. Obviously, the best thing for my children is that they have two healthy and stable parents. I would love for that to be the case.
He uses things against me in court, something that I’ll tell him. He’ll bring up and twist it against me. Any way I can be blamed. Learn so you can prepare.
Anne: Which is really, really scary. Oh man, this situation feels impossible. There are options for women. I turn to prayer and pondering to determine the best actions I can take. The answers will come to us, and it might take time and it might take effort, but we will find a way to create safety for us and our children.
June: Exactly. I fully agree. There’s always a solution. I look at things that way sometimes through this journey.
Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story.
June: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.
How to Live with a Husband You Don’t Trust – Cristy’s Story
Jun 25, 2024
Women often ask, “how do you live with a husband you don’t trust?”
If you’ve discovered something about your husband that made you question if you could live with him, he’s likely using at least one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. To find out, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Did His Manipulation and Lies Break Your Trust?
Most women who can’t trust their husband discover he’s been manipulating, gaslighting, and lying. It’s important for emotionally abusive men to protect their secret behaviors and maintain the privileges they receive from being “good guys”.
Manipulation, gaslighting, and lying may follow, it can look like:
Flat-out denial of the pornography use, whether there is evidence or not (in cases where there is evidence, he might say, “I have no idea how that got on my phone, it must have been the kids/my brother/a co-worker)
Blaming the victim (if you would ____, I wouldn’t have to use it)
Minimization (I downloaded it but I didn’t look at it; I texted her but never had met with her)
Blame-shifting: “Why are you checking my phone in the first place?”
Partial truths: “I was just studying for a test and it popped up – I did look at it, but I wasn’t searching for it”
Gaslighting with questions like, “Do you really think so low of me?” “How could you accuse me of something like that?”
When You Find Out You Can’t Trust Him, It’s Usually The Tip of The Iceberg
Women who can’t trust their husband almost always discover he’s participating in some type of destructive behavior, like…
Transcript: How to Live with a Husband You Don’t Trust
Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. Her name is Cristy. She’s going to talk about when she discovered something that made her wonder if she could ever trust her husband again.
Cristy: Thank you.
Anne: Just like so many members of our community, you went through. Years and years of pain, but you didn’t understand what was happening.
Cristy: No, I did not. We both went to a Christian college that’s where we met and we talked through our values. after we graduated, we got married.
Our first year of marriage, I knew something was wrong and couldn’t pinpoint it. I asked him and he lied he yelled a lot I even at one point had found myself in the car for hours, not knowing where else to go. I knew something was wrong.
Discovering I Couldn’t Trust My Husband
Cristy: Then I found it on my husbands phone. He said he had looked at it and I firmly said well, I’d like to go to counseling together about this. It’s very hurtful towards me I don’t think this is something good. You know, I want to be there for you and be enough for you like, this isn’t good for either one of us.
Cristy: So we went to counseling together, he treated it as an isolated incident. He didn’t yell at me anymore, he was very regretful, remorseful, could see how it hurt me, never wanted to do that again. Now I know he lied, but I didn’t know at the time.
Anne: It’s really interesting that you say that, because what I see there is that he became better at manipulating you.
Cristy: Yes, I know that now. Yeah.
Anne: It was less obvious because he wasn’t yelling at you anymore, but he was still lying to you, manipulating you, and hiding the truth from you. So really, he just got better at psychological abuse as a result of couple therapy. Even your husband’s therapist won’t know this. It’s so hard for us to understand. It was hard for me to understand.
The things that I viewed as good, like once he started going to therapy, he didn’t yell as much. Sometimes he acted nicer. But I didn’t get that it was coming from a place of manipulation, so it wasn’t like he was good and then he was bad. He was always bad. But then the bad felt good sometimes because of the grooming. So he’s grooming you.
Secret Alcohol Use
Anne: But things still don’t feel right. What do you do at that point?
Cristy: I’m like, Oh, are you still looking at it? He said he had people he felt comfortable talking to about that and I said, okay, are you talking to them? You know, I just try trusting him and then life got busy. I pushed it to the back of my brain like, this isn’t going on. I think he got a smartphone. It was happening. but I couldn’t see it and didn’t know it was going on.
Anne: In the meantime, I’m guessing your husband’s gaslighting and manipulation and the lying was still occurring.
Cristy: It was. We fast forward a couple of years and now I see lying in other sins. So in our basement, like hidden away, I found a vodka bottle. So now I know he’s hiding and lying about drinking liquor alone.
And I expressed that concern. I don’t think it’s healthy for either one of us to drink alone and can we come to that agreement? He agreed to that, but later on continued that as well. I knew when I found evidence that those were lies, but until hearing The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, I didn’t realize how much it was emotional abuse.
Cristy: I was on birth control. I take it like religiously same time every day. It had worked for years and it did not. We were having a surprise baby and he made comments like, now I’m going to have another child. I’m going to screw up and he’s going to end up in counseling because of me.
I’m never going to have freedom ever again. When I had to tell him that was pregnant, that’s when I first started seeing him spiral.
I was four weeks postpartum, and he comes home like shaking, having anxiety attacks. This is when I started like, okay, I’ll give him space. What do I need to do to love him more? Do all the things in the house.
I’m, I stay at home mom, so I’m taking care of a four year old, a two year old, three month old, doing all the things I can, and nothing seems to be working.
I went to see my parents for the weekend. Like, you rest up, do everything you can, and I’m going to come back. When I came back, I realized even that wasn’t going to help him.
He was blaming it on the baby, like I’m depressed. The drinking and the lying about that increased, so I was noticing all this and for months I worked really hard and realized I wasn’t helping him. I said I’m going go to counseling then because I don’t know how to be the best mom, the best wife, and caretaker for everybody and he was like, okay.
Go ahead. So I did. And it was frustrating because, of course, I wanted him to go or for us to go together. But he didn’t want to.
A Sign Of A Bigger Problem
Cristy: So about a year ago I saw him texting heart emojis on his phone late one night, and I approached him about that. When I did, he deleted it, denied anything was going on.
He gave me the code to his phone, saying I’ve got nothing to hide. Even Christmas morning, I was still processing it, crying on the floor. He was in the room with the kids, playing with all the toys. I was sad thinking about having to share my kids with him and another woman and later on I told him and he denied it and said, you’ve got nothing to worry about.
He said, “I love you. I want you. I want this family and there’s nothing I do to put that in jeopardy.”
And I was like, “Okay.” I had the code to his phone and he would drink at night and it interacted with his antidepressant medicine.
I would see just his eyes get so heavy and he’d get knocked out like that. I even tried to wake him up one time to talk to him and he was incoherent. Then I would get his phone. There was a text message from a coworker three years ago when they were on a work trip and it was like, come on back at 12:15 AM or, you’ll have to carry me back to my hotel room at 3 AM.
When I Discovered His Affair
I showed him, I was like, “What is this? It looks like you’ve been with another woman and you’re texting her and we’re in the hospital with our newborn, or you’re texting about birthday presents.”
He said, “You know, no, you’ve got nothing to worry about.” And I he denied anything happened.
Regardless, this is an inappropriate emotional relationship. He said he didn’t agree, but would respect me enough to stop. And then as he was walking out the door, he had an anxiety attack on the steps that night too. I was like, is this my life now?
Anne: A carefully contrived anxiety attack perhaps. I’m of the opinion it was a contrived anxiety attack to control you and manipulate you into feeling sorry for him.
Cristy: Yeah, so these were all little things. Again, I was finding him drinking throughout the day and denying that and he would say this is the only thing I can control.
We stopped having it. We would try and he physically could not. I was starting to think, oh, something’s wrong with me or you’re cheating on me. He’d say, no, I love you. I’d never do that to you.
I picked up his phone and it’s a different phone than mine. So I had to work hard, but I found a, like on the computer, there’s like a downloads file. I found even more.
When I Looked Deeper I Found Out He’d Been Soliciting
Cristy: I guess your phone saves what you download to you, even if you transfer phones. I found an STD test result from three years ago, and then also like a menu of, I still don’t know if it was like an affair, but pictures and pricing, uh, with a woman.
I said, what is this? What are you doing? I didn’t know at the time, but he fed me another lie of, I was on a work trip. I met a woman, we didn’t have intercourse. And I said, we might as well have, if you felt like you had to go get an STD test. He said, well, you’re not perfect either. And I was like, Oh, I never said I was.
And I, you know, I’ve held up every one of our marriage vows. The next day was our daughter’s first birthday and he had to stay in the house. Like I couldn’t wake up the next day and he not be there for this daughter’s birthday for some reason. So he stayed in the house for about five to seven days.
So I continued to see my counselor and when everything went down, I said, I need to see you every week. She said, but I’m not trained in this. She’s really into the Enneagram, which has helped me too.
When I Couldn’t Trust Him, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helped Me Figure Out What To Do Next
I just started Googling betrayal trauma groups, recovery, I came across The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and I’m a big runner. When I run a lot on the treadmill while the kids are still asleep, but I just listened and it just opened my eyes hearing other people’s stories similar to mine. I think there was one in particular and I wrote this down cause it spoke to me.
She said, “I had to work hard”. It was on me all the time, because everything was falling apart because of me. She did her best to please her husband and be the best she could be, but it was never enough. And she gave and gave and gave and all he did was take. I remember I sent that one to my mom, and I said, this was my story too.
Then I started to reduce time with my counselor from once a week so I could add in the funds to go to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. I can go while the kids are asleep, it’s a safe place.
Anne: Once you started listening to the podcast, were you surprised that you had been abused for so long and that you didn’t know?
Cristy: Yes. I think on The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Instagram had the picture of alcoholics abuse alcohol. Drug addicts abuse drugs and addicts abuse people.
He admitted it to later on saying, I took advantage of you. I knew what I was doing the whole time. I would have never told you. Things would have gotten worse. Hearing that and hearing from the podcast, how it’s so oftentimes we say like, oh, bad. I’m sorry.
There Were So Many Reasons Not To Trust Him
I did it. It’s okay. Like just don’t do it again. It’s not that scenario. It’s no, he admitted I wanted to live two separate lives. I knew what I was doing the whole time, and that just opened my eyes like he did this anyways, like he risked me our marriage, our kids, and he said yeah, why did you let your addiction ruin our family?
All he could say was like, I’m sorry. I’ve told him, I’ve looked him in the eyes and said, I could never trust you again because of the way you’ve emotionally abused me. You looked me straight in the eyes for years when I said, Are you cheating on me? Are you doing this? No, I love you. I’d never do that to you.
Trust me. I want you. I want our family. And he was doing that just so I wouldn’t continue down the detective mode rabbit hole trying to figure out what was going on and wasn’t getting any answers. After I just looked at him and I knew we couldn’t keep doing this.
Cristy: He had kept the finances from me, our whole marriage. He would like screenshot the statement that would answer my question. I would be like, no, can I have the logins. He was like, oh yeah, yeah. But never would give them to me because he knew there was evidence there.
Finally I was pushing, I need every login, I need to see exactly what’s being spent where? He had called me after binge drinking for a little bit.
He Had So Many Secrets
Cristy: He said, I have more to tell you.
I have paid for services. I’ve been with at least four prostituted women. When you saw me text messaging over Christmas, I was inappropriately texting somebody. I was like, okay, I’m done. Like, do you have anything else to tell me? He said, no. It took me another week. I got into the finances. Actually, my dad was patient and gracious with me to sit down because I was so scared.
Finally put it all together. So the first prostitute was in 2017 when you’re on a work trip here. You paid for with cash you got here. I had to get the whole picture.
Anne: Yeah, that’s something that we talk about in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop quite a bit is make sure you have access to the finances. So I’m really glad you got access to the finances and that you could start putting the pieces of the puzzle together and see reality.
Cristy: From the coaches in the other women somebody said this is not a club. Anybody wants to be a part of, but I’m thankful for it. I’m in my young thirties with three small kids and then. I’ve seen a woman in her 70s and 80s been married and has grandkids, and she’s walking the same path I am.
Finding Support From Betrayal Trauma Recovery
The coaches hear all the stories, right? We have this common thread of addiction. It could also be infidelity, in my case, prostitution. But, they’re also different. So we each get a chance to share that, to get feedback from the other women and coaches. For me personally, just processing it all, what’s it like to move forward?
Anne: As victims, once you get the appropriate glasses on and look at this through the lens of abuse, rather than he needs help or has anxiety problems. You reframe everything that happened in the past with the new glasses that make everything so clear.
Cristy: When he would feed me this lie of like, I’ll go to counseling with you but he knew the whole time what he was doing and he was never going to say anything. When I found out I couldn’t trust him, that was a lot to take in.
Now I have those glasses on, like you said, I would replay as much as I could remember of our whole marriage and trying to figure out what was lies or manipulation and what wasn’t. At this point, one of the coaches made a good point of like, do you know what you already need to know now?
When You Can’t Trust Your Husband, You Can Trust Yourself
There’s no need for all that, like replaying or digging. You know, I can’t even see his device anymore, but I think I’ve seen and heard enough that I can make my decisions now and moving forward. That’s the hardest piece trusting your gut, which sometimes I would. My problem was I didn’t have the evidence until I found what I found.
Just trusting yourself. If something’s not right, right. Had I said any of those things to him, he would have lied. He would have never admitted had I not had point blank evidence. Cause he lied. When we were in counseling together, but trust yourself, trust your gut, get safety.
Cristy: I don’t think I realized what that meant as far as like emotional safety until he’s been gone and I realized I don’t have to tiptoe around my house.
I don’t have to be detective I can create a safe and healthy space for me and my girls. We’re going be honest with each other and treat each other with respect. This is what it means for you to have boundaries even as a three and five year old With your emotions and with your body, too.
Anne: Well, I’m so grateful that you found us and that you’re part of our community and thank you so much for sharing your story today
Cristy: Thank you.
Anne: I appreciate Cristy’s courage to share her story on today’s episode. If you’d like to share your story, I would be honored to hear it. Please message podcast@btr.org to set up an interview with my assistant. We all grow stronger and have epiphanies as we work together to truly understand this.
How to Deal With a Narcissistic Husband: 5 Tips
Jun 18, 2024
A narcissistic husband can make marriage a nightmare. Below you’ll find expert advice for women married to a narcissistic man.
If you need support dealing with your narcissistic husband, check out our daily online Group Session Schedule.
5 Tips For Surviving A Narcissist When You Choose To Stay
Knowing what to do when your husband is a narcissist is difficult. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery (BTR.ORG), we offer compassion and empowerment – not judgement. Women sometimes stay with their narcissistic husband for a variety of (often) complex reasons.
It’s important to have specific tools in your emotional arsenal so that you’re equipped so that you can thrive no matter what.
Dr. Ramani’s 5 Tips: How to Deal With a Narcissistic Spouse
Recognize They Won’t Change
Avoid Arguments
Have Realistic Expectations
Have Compassion For Yourself
Invest In Healthy Relationships
“If you choose to stay in proximity to your narcissistic husband, the safest course of action is to keep things very surface level. Talk about the weather, talk about your new lawn mower. You’ll never be emotionally safe with a narcissist.”
Anne Blythe, M.Ed. – Host of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast
is my husband a narcissist
Transcript: How to Deal With a Narcissistic Husband
Anne: I’m so honored to have Dr. Ramani with me on today’s episode, she’s a licensed clinical psychologist. You’ve most likely seen her on YouTube. She’s a professor of psychology at California state university, Los Angeles, and the author of lots of books.
One of them, should I stay or should I go is amazing.
The link is available on our books page. Later in the episode, I’ll be calling out Dr. Ramani’s five tips for dealing with a narcissistic husband. So stay tuned for when I start calling those out for you.
Anne: Dr. Ramani received her ma and PhD degrees in clinical psychology from UCLA, and her research on personality disorders has been funded by the national institutes of health.
At BTR, we’re talking a lot about how addiction is abusive to a spouse.
What Tools Can A Woman Use To Survive A Narcissistic Husband?
Anne: So my first question for you is, while narcissistic behavior patterns seem to be a hallmark of addiction, those who get into and maintain recovery tend to cease those behavior patterns, indicating lasting change is possible, at least for those who choose to do the hard work required to get into and maintain recovery from their addiction.
Yet for some, no amount of recovery work seems to bring change on. Maybe they’re not doing it right.
Anne: I don’t know, but short of investing years to wait and see, are there indicators that wives can look for to determine if their loved one with narcissistic abuse patterns is capable of change?
Dr. Ramani: It’s a great question because when you have something like addiction, tangled up with narcissism, just like if it’s addiction, substance addiction.
Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Learn To Recognize Manipulation
Dr. Ramani: That’s an entanglement of two patterns. Now, if you had someone, addict for example, but not narcissistic, then those are the clients where, whether it’s 12 step, trauma wor. Ongoing therapy, that’s going to work well. They’re going to commit to whatever they’ve promised to or promised to themselves in terms of their growth, in terms of distancing themselves from these patterns.
Dr. Ramani: When you have both patterns present, The addiction and the narcissism, you’re not going to see as much change. You got to remember that the addiction pattern is very much focused on the other patterns. The, the lack of empathy, the entitlement. I have a right to do this, I have a right to five orgasms a day.
I need lots of people who tell me I’m attractive like a spoiled child. So, I would then argue that the addict, who also has significant co-morbid symptoms of narcissistic personality, is not going to get much better. What you might be able to do is less time spent on exploitative content.
They may be less likely to engage in another infidelity, especially if the stakes are high. For example, an expensive divorce, potential loss of custody of a child, a financial hit, shame in the eyes of their community. So dealing with both a addict and a narcissistic husband is a real double whammy.
A Narcissistic Husband Has A Barrier To Treatment
Dr. Ramani: But when you have that narcissism, because that tends to be what’s driving the compulsive behavior and the compulsive need for validation, that’s often going to be the reason treatment doesn’t work.
So I would view narcissism as the barrier to it working, because there’s very little evidence, other than in the most rare of cases, that narcissistic patterns are amenable to significant change in treatment. And please note the use of my word significant. So a narcissistic husband has a real barrier to treatment.
Empathy and Narcissism
Dr. Ramani: What you might get is a partner who actually stops cheating, or stops going to other women, or stops going to massage parlors, or stops watching exploitative content.
But, they are still un-empathic, they are still entitled, they are still full of rage. So it’s sort of like, choose your poison. Some people might say, okay, the addiction part’s gone, but this is still a really not nice person. That’s where it starts to get complicated.
https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco
Anne: Was that from Epstein? The quote, the five orgasms a day?
Dr. Ramani: Now that you’re saying that, yeah, I guess I read something and he said, I’m a great guy, I’m a hard working guy, king of the world, I have the right to five orgasms a day. I’ve heard that before.
Anne: Exactly. Yeah, entitlement.
Recognizing Narcissistic Traits
Anne: So, is there any way that a woman can see if he has those narcissistic traits while he’s using or does he need to stop using for a little while and then see if it’s related to the it. How can you kind of figure this out while surviving narcissistic abuse?
Dr. Ramani: If you’re going to try to determine whether you have a narcissistic husband, then you’re looking for things like, are they non-empathic? Are they entitled, grandiose, superficial, arrogant, prone to rage, or controlling? That’s what you’re looking for.
Anne: So what they’re looking for is do they have the ability to empathize with me?
Dealing With A Narcissistic Husband: Don’t Cut People Into Parts
Anne: Now, when women are looking for that, how can they separate grooming from actual real true empathy, because so many of these men, they seem like they’re very empathic.
They can say the right things and do the right things, but that’s just grooming. So what would you say to women who are like, man, he really is empathic and kind and generous. Like my ex, for example, he did the dishes and he helped out with the kids.
And he was what I would say amazing person. Then he’d fly off the handle and rage. Over and over again. What would you say to women who are like, well, there is this part of him that is so empathetic.
Dr. Ramani: We don’t cut people into parts. It’s holistic.
Judging People on Their Abuses
Dr. Ramani: What I’m about to say is going to sound incredibly cynical and I apologize for it, but sadly I do judge people on their abuses and not on their virtues.
Because you’ve now shown me what’s in your wheelhouse. I have heard the saying hurt people hurt people but that doesn’t qualify me or anyone else to be your punching bag. So the first time somebody goes off into a rage it’s time to go.
I mean, it’s that simple and yet it’s that complicated. So no doing the dishes doesn’t obviate going into a rage. The rage always be more important than emptying the dishwasher. We’re 10 years from a robot emptying a dishwasher.
Dr. Ramani: The other thing a lot of people confuse is generosity.
They’ll say, but he took me to so many nice dinners, and he bought me an airplane ticket, and he took me on a vacation. Any fool can do that. Anyone who has enough money in a bank account, that’s just pulling money. That’s easy. It’s the heavy lifting. It’s how does this person cope under conditions of stress or frustration?
Generosity vs. Genuine Care
Something at work doesn’t go the way they want, you’re running late, you take a trip with them and things aren’t going right. How does this person handle themselves under those conditions? That kind of stuff shows up in the first four to six weeks of a relationship. If you find yourself making excuses for this person be very careful because those excuses at four to six weeks are the excuses you’ll be writing in 40 years.
Anne: I love how you said a robot will be doing the dishes in 10 years when things were really devolving in my relationship right before my ex’s arrest. He said, I just want to connect with you and I said, well, what do you do to connect with me?
He said, I mow the lawn.
Dr. Ramani: See, there’s all those books out there, the Men from Mars and Women from Venus and the love languages and all that. I’m not a fan because those books run the danger of writing off as an excuse like, well, his love language is doing the lawn.
I think doing the lawn is perfectly fine, but only if it’s embedded in a larger framework of empathy, kindness, compassion, respect, mutuality, patience, serenity, and compromise. And you know what? I’ll cut my own lawn if I can have all that other stuff.
When co parenting with a narcissistic individual, what measures can a healthy parent take to reduce the risk of the behavior traits being passed on to the next generation?
Raising Healthy Kids with a Narcissistic Co-Parent
Dr. Ramani: The one thing that’s most important to note is that it takes one good healthy parent to raise a good healthy kid. We know that. A lot of parents panic thinking, Oh my goodness, I really chose a bad person here.
I’m going to pay forever. But what it means is that good, healthy parent now has to do the work, not of two parents, but of three parents. Because you have to do the work of you being a good parent. And then you have to do the work of dodging the bullets of the bad stuff that the unskilled parent is doing and then step into their role.
That’s like a third job here. And I tell people that the key is, is to stop waiting for justice, but they should be doing this. They’re the other parent. It’s not fair. No, it’s not fair. And sadly, the only thing that many people can do is look in the mirror and say, I made a lousy choice, but this is not this child’s fault.
And so I’ve got to step up.
The Role of a Healthy Parent
Dr. Ramani: I’ve got to do right and not get caught up in what’s fair, what’s not fair, but to do the heavy lifting of parenting.
Which means teaching your child how to tolerate frustration and disappointment, teaching your child empathy, allowing your child’s emotional vocabulary to develop and grow. Never shame them or humiliate them for feeling anything for engaging with them being mindful with them.
You have to be everything, you have to be the one that the soccer game, you have to be the one teaching them to wash the dishes. Do their chores and compromise and play nice and all of that. You have to be super person if this is the case if you’re co parenting with a narcissist. I have worked with many clients who had one deeply narcissistic parent and one very loving parent and the loving parent saved them.
The only downside to this is if a child grows up with a very narcissistic parent, even if they have that very loving parent. Something I do often see in is that these people grow into rather anxious adults.
Parallel Parenting and Exhaustion
They still live under the specter of, I’m not good enough, or what could I do to win them over, or the tension or anxiety that a angry parent brought into the home. Even if they had that loving parent, it may not translate into narcissism in that person that when they turn into adult, it may turn into anxiety.
Anne: I can’t be super person. So that is a little bit discouraging, but I will try.
Anne: I think about that and I’m like, Oh, I parallel parent so that I hold a no contact boundary and that helps. But I still get exhausted. Being a super person is impossible.
Dr. Ramani: It is impossible in some ways.
It’s also having like those standards of like being the good enough parent, but also also.
Validating Children’s Emotions
Dr. Ramani: Never gaslight your own kids, and by that I mean, you don’t have to say, well, dad’s your hero, and that’s great. Like, if dad humiliates, for example, that child showing an emotion, then you can say, sweetie, that wasn’t okay.
Emotions are wonderful, but some grown ups don’t always understand them. What’s amazing about you as a little person is that you’re actually brave enough to show your emotions. So you don’t have to say, dad’s a jerk who doesn’t even have one emotional bone in his body and is a narcissist. You don’t have to do that.
What you can say is that what’s amazing about you is you’re able to do something and actually dad’s not able to do that. And that’s hard for him. Acknowledge it and it’s a struggle as it is, but also that it’s not okay to ever have their emotions shamed. Never let your kids say, Oh, that’s okay. Dad didn’t mean that or that’s just how dad is.
Dad did mean it. That’s why dad did it. That doesn’t make it okay. You don’t, again, it’s that fine balancing act of not throwing dad under the bus because that’s not good parenting, but also not signing off on it and saying, that’s just how dad is.
Charm, Charisma, and Confidence
Anne: So, you refer to charm, charisma, and confidence as the three C’s of narcissism, yet acknowledge not all who possess those are narcissistic.
In the early stages of dating, before the traits which comprise the pillars of narcissism begin to reveal themselves, are there other clues to watch for which might indicate whether the three C’s are red flags rather than positive traits?
Dr. Ramani: I actually talk about this in the new book and I hinted this and should I stay or should I go?
If you can find someone who’s charming, charismatic, and confident, and also empathic, kind, reciprocal, serene and patient and all of those things. You just won the human being lottery is what you did. Because I think that somebody may be very charismatic because they’re telling you a story of what they do for a living or about their life or something like that.
Early Red Flags Of A Narcissist
You can get so caught up in that story that what we don’t pay attention to is are they listening to other people or are they merely holding court. Acting as sort of like an entertainer rather than as a human being.
The fairy tale. I’m not a fan of fairy tales. I think that in that quest, the larger than life people, we can get lost in them. It’s almost as though you have to in your head saying, if I’m talking about myself, is this person listening? Sometimes charming people are actually really good at that. So you have to be careful.
It’s not just that they listen. Are they interested? Are they asking questions? Pay attention to how they talk about other people. Are they contemptuous? Are they belittling? People give you more clues than you think. You just have to be on. Now, not all of us want to be sort of a shrink the first time we meet someone at a party.
Married To A Narcissistic Husband: His Real Character Will Emerge
I get that. And it may very well be that the charming, charismatic, confident person is beguiling enough that you do go out on that first date or that second date. But notice what happens in those first few weeks, those love bomb weeks. Slowly but surely you’ll see their interest levels start to fade a little bit.
You’re gonna see, again, real life happens. They might have to wait in line at a restaurant, or their order may not come out exactly the way they want it. Or, They may be barraging you with text and you can’t always answer. Watch how they answer when things aren’t perfect. We so desperately want the charming, confident, and charismatic person to be the whole package, that we try to ignore it when the other parts of the package don’t show up.
And so, I think that if you can get those three things with all of the other stuff, then it’s fine. But those three things without the empathy and all the other good stuff, forget it. That’s where you have to pay attention. And empathy is one of those things people should pretty much lead with. So if it starts to wane, if the people can’t handle things like frustration and disappointment, those are the kinds of patterns that bring a relationship down.
Hypersensitivity Is A Red Flag Of A Narcissist
And another thing to pay attention to, no matter how charming or charismatic someone is, how sensitive are they? Hypersensitivity is one of those red flags that shows itself off early because people are trying to impress you when they first meet you, right? So if you say, Oh gosh, you know, I never knew that school was that hard to get into.
And they’re like, what do you mean? That school’s really hard to get into. That’s a red flag. That they’re so hypersensitive, they’re like, yeah, whatever, I had a great experience. And they can’t be a bit easy breezy about it. That tension, that when they feel that they’re at all being slighted, that’s a very big red flag.
And a lot of people write that off to like anxiety when they first meet someone. Uh uh. That hypersensitivity is usually a sign of more problematic things lurking.
Anne: That’s interesting.
Anne: When you said they’re listening, but are they really listening? It reminded me of my ex when I would talk. I thought he was the best listener because I could just sit and talk and he would just sit there and listen.
But looking back, I realized he was never really engaged. He was just there in body, but not actually engaged with his mind.
So he wouldn’t ask me follow up questions or ask me how I felt about it. I’m very I would say independently descriptive. I would just sort of say all the things I wanted to say without needing prompting. I thought he was a good listener, but I know now that that was not good listening.
Listening Vs. Engaging
He was probably daydreaming about bike parts or something.
Dr. Ramani: Yes. And also pay attention to how much they remember. I mean, well, ah, well he has ADHD, so he doesn’t remember stuff. I don’t know. When you care enough about a person, you remember stuff. And if you do sort of feel like it’s a soliloquy and many times when we first meet someone, we’re anxious.
So some of us talk too much when we’re anxious. So a narcissist might actually cut you a wide berth to keep talking and talking and talking and talking. We think that’s good listening. Actually good listening means that every so often they say, and how did that feel? What happened next? That their punctuation into the conversation means that they’re actually tracking what you’re talking.
Anne: On that same note, when I would interrupt my ex. When he was talking to track what he was saying, so you mean this or, oh, this is what happened. He would get angry with me for interrupting him. And I was like, wait, I’m practicing active listening skills. You know, this is what people do when they’re listening to people.
And he would get really mad and tell me that I needed to be completely quiet until he was done. Do you see that as that common?
Survive A Narcissistic Husband: It Doesn’t Matter Why He’s Abusive
Dr. Ramani: Yeah, that’s a real problem too. There’s a lot of places that could come from, it can come from arrogance, it can come from entitlement, it can come from family of origin issues. That that’s how they did it in this family, that you kind of did your little speech and then sat down.
Here’s the thing. People say, well, if that’s how they grew up and I feel bad for them, I feel bad for them too. But if that doesn’t work for you, this is how it’s always going to be, you know? So it’s like, I get that people feel bad for where people came from and that’s lovely and compassionate, but you’re not going to change that.
You can’t unring the bell of their history. So yes, I think narcissists, like I said, they hold court. Everything’s a soliloquy. You say this long speech and then someone else has a long speech. It’s parallel play. It’s not the interactiveness of a relationship. And so, that idea of stop interacting, if that happened early enough in a relationship, that’s usually a red flag of a problem.
Anne: Wish I would have known that before. That would have been helpful. But hopefully our listeners will think about that as they’re interacting.
Often, a narcissistic man will attempt to deflect his own behavior onto the healthy partner, his wife or girlfriend. Causing the healthy woman to question whether it could be true, whether she herself is the unhealthy person, if she is abusive.
Do you recommend any self assessment tools to provide a reality check for a victim?
Deflection And Gaslighting
Dr. Ramani: Yes. This pattern of deflecting their behavior to the healthy partner reflects two things. In part, it’s something we call projection, so when something is uncomfortable in us, we don’t like it, and so unconsciously we’re projected onto other people.
For example, somebody might have a forbidden sentiment, like they have racial prejudice or something, they’ll accuse someone else of being racist. You know, when that’s not at all true. Projection is one of the key defenses of the narcissist.
Secondly, deflection is also gaslighting. So it confuses the other person. Anything that confuses someone else and denies and twists and contorts the other person’s reality is gaslighting, which is emotional abuse. So when all of that’s happening, sometimes people say, you know, it’s almost like my reality changed.
I was getting sort of sucked into this alternate universe.
Dr. Ramani: We know that one of the main tools of the abuser, and controlling partner is to cut that person off from other people, from friends, from family, because one of the most important self assessment tools for a reality check are the other relationships you have.
The people that far predated this partner, the people who know you and love you and get you and unconditionally are behind you that you can go and check this out and say, you know, it’s interesting. My partner accused me of la la la, whatever it is. And it’s not something you believe about yourself. A good honest friend will say, yeah, sometimes you can be like that.
Isolation from Support Networks
Or they might say, goodness, no universe we occupy, are you that thing? That’s so strange that this person would say that. We all need those safe reality check spaces to go to. Like I said, in a lot of times a narcissistic husband detects that there are other people around their new partner that are going to be healthy and slowly but surely, they distance themselves from them.
They say negative things about those friends like, Oh, your friend, she doesn’t have your best interest at heart. Or, Oh, your sister was flirting with me or whatever it may be. To create mistrust in those relationships to take away that support network. But we need those spaces. So it’s having these kinds of, like I said, unconditional accepting spaces where your reality is not being twisted.
That can be very useful. Ultimately though, ultimately what I want for everybody is that they have within themselves. A space where they know who they are. The challenge with a narcissistic husband is that narcissists prey upon vulnerable people. As soon as they see that somebody’s not falling for their game, they’re going to get out pretty quick.
A narcissistic husband is uncanny at figuring out who a good target is and running with it. And so I think that that’s another thing that it’s so important, especially for young women.
To do the work of knowing who they are and what they are about. The problem is many people start dating and getting into relationships long before they do that kind of inner psychological work. So they’re building the airplane in the sky. You’re learning about yourself while you’re in this relationship, but this relationship is actually twisting your reality.
What Are “Flying Monkeys”?
Anne: What would you say to women who are worried about their abusive. husband spending time with unhealthy people around him. So they’re like, Oh, I don’t like it when he spends time with his family or these friends because they just sort of support this like entitled kind of mentality that he has.
What would you say to women like that who are actually attempting maybe to isolate their abuser from the system that enabled him to be an abuser?
Dr. Ramani: It’s an interesting idea because obviously these enabling systems around this person are adding fuel to this person’s fire, right? There’s no dissenting voice. They are empowering him, they’re enabling him, and he gets away with it. And this can happen.
Anne: In some circles called flying monkeys.
Dr. Ramani: Yeah, but flying monkeys to me are also people that a person enlists at the time a relationship ends. So the flying monkey model to me is like, let’s say a marriage is falling apart or someone’s breaking up. The narcissist will then go and poach everyone, even the people close to their partner, their friends, other family and say, Hey, did you know that she cheated on me?
Hey, did you know that she was doing this? And so they bring everyone over to their side. and then they’re all doing the bidding. Like, what are you doing? Why are you breaking up with him? He’s such a great guy. Or why did you do that to him? Of course he’s hurt. They enlist people. I think that the people around them before that kind of rupture happens are just merely their enablers.
Narcissists Will Buy Their “Good Guy” Image
One of the classical models of the narcissistic person is they’re often very generous because they use money and they invite people on trips or they buy the round of drinks at the bar. That’s their way of keeping people close. It’s a lot less. effortful than having to actually listen to people. And people never want to kill the golden goose, right?
So like, ah, he’s a good guy. He buys the drinks. That doesn’t make him a good guy. That makes him somebody who wastes money in a bar, but they then fall for that thinking. Like, well, he’s a nice guy because he buys the drinks. So then they can find a lot of people that enable them. It could be their boss.
It could be somebody who’s very powerful in a small town, it could be any number of reasons. The fantasy, though, becomes, if I could just get this abusive, controlling, hostile, difficult, un-empathic guy away from his enablers. He’s going to turn into a nice guy? That’s a fantasy. That’s absolutely a fantasy.
Because even a person in the midst of any group of people, if they’re good and solid, That goodness and that solidness will shine through. Maybe not as brightly as it would if they were around good people, but a person who’s just sort of not a nice person is going to be not a nice person. These people make his voice louder, but getting him away is not going to silence that voice.
A Narcissist Doesn’t Change By Changing His Friends
Anne: Yeah, it also made me think as I went through that, because after his arrest, he was quote unquote free, to hang out with whoever he wanted. Because he had a no contact order and I couldn’t influence him at all. And Then from a safe distance, I was able to observe who he chose to hang out with.
He was just choosing to hang out with people who I thought were super unhealthy and abusive and just people I would never want to be around. That’s who he was choosing to be with when he had all these options. So that helped me realize, wait a minute, why am I trying to get someone who is acting this way away from other people who act this way when that’s really who he wants to be with?
I just need to let him be free. Fly! I even told him that at the very end. I said, fly! Go! Go do what you want! He refused to leave. He wouldn’t leave the home, so that was fun. So you acknowledge that some women may not be able to walk away, and for them, managing expectations can protect them from individuals and the effects of ongoing abuse.
Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Maintain Realistic Expectations
Anne: Can you expand on managing expectations with a narcissistic husband and how it can protect a victim from ongoing abuse?
Dr. Ramani: There’s so many reasons people cannot leave narcissistic relationships. Financial reasons, cultural reasons. They have children, religion, fear, anxiety, and that they still actually love elements of this person.
They want to be married. Even on some of the good days are enough. They want that person around, and all of these are valid reasons, and I, nor anyone else, can stand in judgment of that. In this group, though, I am not counting people who are victims of severe psychological, emotional, or physical abuse.
Obviously, that’s an entirely different game, where safety becomes everything. But in your sort of garden variety, narcissistic relationship, There’s a lot of reasons people stay in these sorts of invalidating spaces.
Dr. Ramani: So if you’re going to stay though, then you’ve got to maintain realistic expectations and by that I mean you’ve got to recognize this is not going to change.
This pattern is how it is. So do not expect that all of a sudden, if you lose 25 pounds, they’re going to be happy. When your kids are growing out of the house, everything’s going to be happy. If you kept the house a little cleaner, it’d be happy. He gets a promotion. It’s going to be happy. Nothing’s going to change.
Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Expect that It Will Get Worse After Having Children
This is who this person is, who they were when you met them. This is who they are now. A lot of narcissistic relationships get worse after you have kids. So some people will say we were kind of going along. And then we had kids and then it got really dark. You got to remember for a narcissistic husband, a kid coming along, kids are inconvenient.
They’re noisy, messy, demanding, and magnificent. But the fact is they’re demanding. And for a narcissistic husband, that feels like a competition. They’re not always the greatest source of the narcissistic supply and they pull the partner away. So that’s often where a lot of narcissistic relationships start changing.
Not to mention a woman who has a child, her body changes, You know, there’s a period of time where it’s not what she wanted it to be, and unless she has lots of resources, she’s not going right back to her pre baby body ever, quite frankly. So, all of those things can make it complicated. So in terms of managing those expectations, this ain’t gonna change.
Tip 1 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Recognize They Won’t Change
Anne: So calling this out for you, this is tip number one on how to deal with a narcissistic husband, recognize that they won’t change.
Dr. Ramani: This is it. You are going to live a life devoid of empathy. With someone who’s arrogant. You are going live with someone who’s full of rage. You are going to live with somebody who’s constantly needing validation. So from what that means then is that you know that they’re going to insult you.
You know that they’re going to invalidate good news. When you get a promotion, they should not be the first person you tell. You call your people, you call the people you trust and love and who will be thrilled for you. Call a few of them first. And then, and only then, you can tell your partner, Oh, by the way, I got a promotion.
They’ll insult you. Oh, but it’s just a new title with no more money or who cares, or that’s not even that important a job. But by then you’ve already heard good things. from the people who matter. So you’ve got to learn not to engage. You’ve got to learn to totally dial it down. To make sure that you’re keeping it literally all the things you talk about, the weather, the first day of school is next Wednesday.
Did you see that the guy across the street got a new tractor to mow his lawn? Like that’s it. The conversation can’t go any deeper than that. You want deeper conversation, you need to do it with other friends, people close to you, people you can trust. You have to engage in radical acceptance. This is how it’s always going to be much like the managing expectations.
Tip 2 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Avoiding Arguments
Dr. Ramani: You have to get out of patterns like defending yourself, that many times people who are in relationships with narcissists are always explaining themselves. No, no, no, but actually remember, but no, no, no, remember when it, no, there’s no defending. There’s no explaining. You’re never gonna win at that game because narcissists argue like lawyers and so you can’t win.
So don’t bother. There’s no defense.
Anne: This is tip number two for how to deal with a narcissistic husband. At least in our community, we’ve noticed that these narcissistic husbands really enjoy chaos, and they trapped victims into thinking. We need to defend ourselves, when they really just love the energy of the argument. They’re not trying to resolve things, but we are, and they know that.
And so they trap us this way. So when Dr. Ramani says don’t defend yourself, she doesn’t mean, don’t set boundaries or don’t work toward safety. She means they use arguments as a trap. And we talk a lot about this in The BTR Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop teaches you about what to do to avoid their chaos.
Dr. Ramani: Yeah They like the argument for the sake of the argument. So don’t argue with them. Have the topics that you won’t talk about.
Tip 3 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Realistic Expectations
Dr. Ramani: If you do have to spend a lot of time with your narcissistic husband create a little bit of a detox period for yourself. Do something that’s pleasant for you, whether it’s a meditation, a book you like, exercise.
Something. But understand that sadly, once upon a time, you made a choice or a choice was made for you that wasn’t good for you. And for reasons that are important to you, you’re choosing to stay in it. Choose to stay in it with realistic expectations is very different than maintaining unrealistic hope that one day this is going to get better.
This is like, being in Chicago in the dead of February and walking outside in a bathing suit. You’re going to freeze to death. You know that. You live in Chicago. It’s February. You always wear a heavy coat. This is the equivalent of pulling on your coat when you know the weather’s going to be cold. You know it, so you prepare for it.
You don’t walk outside in a bathing suit. It’s the same thing with a narcissistic husband.
Anne: And so this would be tip number three on how to deal with a narcissistic husband. Have realistic expectations.
The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop really covers what is happening so that you can see reality. And so many of our community members have said that The Living Free Workshop helped them to really see reality and that helps women have realistic expectations.
Tip 4 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Have Compassion
Dr. Ramani: Yeah exactly you know what, no matter whether you’re stuck in this relationship or you can walk out, please don’t lose your compassion.
Anne: And that’s tip number four to survive a narcissistic husband. Have compassion for yourself because you didn’t know what you didn’t know. I realize I’ve made the mistake of asking so many victims on this podcast. Like, what would you tell yourself if you could go back in time and you knew what you know now. Instead I think I should be asking, ask yourself, if you only knew what you knew, then would you have done anything differently?
That allows for so much compassion because we only knew what we knew and we did the best that we could.
Tip 5 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Invest In Good Relationships
Anne: And that leads right into tip number five to survive a narcissistic husband, invest more in good relationships with people who genuinely care about you.
Dr. Ramani: Exactly. Allow other loving spaces to occur in your life.
I don’t mean finding a new partner or finding a lover. I mean friends and family and people close to you. These relationships, people put so much of themselves in it that they get tunnel vision. Sadly, we tend to give 90 percent of ourselves to the most toxic people in our worlds, and then give the 10 percent to all the good ones.
We need to flip that math. Give 90 percent to the good people and give whatever’s left over to these really difficult, toxic people. I think a lot of people blame themselves for these situations.
A Heavy Burden To Carry
Dr. Ramani: The fact of the matter is, we do not do a good job, not as educators, not as a society, not as parents, to teach our daughters to choose healthy partners. So many people didn’t get that lesson.
Yeah, they threw themselves into these relationships with a narcissistic husband and it’s a heavy legacy to carry, but you don’t have to lose the best of yourself.
Dr. Ramani: We all have broader shoulders than we think, and you can carry this burden and see it for what it is, find meaning in that suffering, and cultivate the other meaningful parts of your life.
Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions meet daily – attend a session today and find a community of women who understand what you’re going through. You don’t have to do this alone.
My Husband Says I’m The Problem. Is He Right? – J.R.’s Story
Jun 11, 2024
“My husband says I’m the problem, so I went to therapy for years. But things are still bad.”
J.R. spent nearly a decade trying to improve herself so her marriage would improve. She didn’t realize she was never the problem in her marriage.
To know if you’re the problem, take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse. If you are, it’s unlikely you have anything to do with the problems in your marriage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKes84VS8GE
Many victims may blame themselves because that’s how a master manipulator will continue to exploit. Convincing her that she’s the problem is part of psychological abuse.
Signs You’re Not the Problem
You’re not the problem if your husband does any of the following:
Uses gaslighting to contort your perception of reality
Betrays you, including secret exploitative content use
Blames you for his choices
Transcript: My Husband Says I Am The Problem, Is He Right?
Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her J.R. She’s a mother of four. She spent almost a decade of her life, married to a psychologically abusive man. Welcome J.R.
J.R.: Thank you, Anne. I’m so happy to have this opportunity.
Anne: You said you attribute your healing to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Do you want to start there, and then we’ll circle back to the beginning?
J.R.: In 2020, I discovered the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. To be honest, I was trying to rack my brain to figure out how I found the podcast. I can’t remember, I feel like it’s a God thing for me anyway. I had known about his use throughout our relationship. We had been through a lot regarding his addiction at that point. But I never would have been able to classify it as emotional abuse. I didn’t have the terminology.
At that time, we lived in Washington state, and I was driving through gorgeous Oregon countryside, like mountains, just a really beautiful landscape. Listening to episode after episode of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast, and I remember this feeling, like, this is me. I heard a description of what I was going through for the first time. I think in the past I had seen myself as the villain, because hearing some women talk on the BTR podcast.
And hearing you Anne talk about safety, gaslighting, and emotional abuse. It became clearer to me that was my situation. Because my husband says I’m the problem. So yes, there was the relief in like, my husband says I’m the problem. But I’m not alone. I finally feel understood. I finally feel seen.
When J.R. Discovered The BTR.ORG Podcast, She Still Thought She Was The Problem
J.R.: I had no idea what I was going to do, and dreaded that. I wasn’t that far yet. There was a sense of dread. And like, I’m driving right back into this situation. I hear a lot of the women on the podcast talk about their husband’s anger, whether it’s verbal assault or even physical, but with my ex, I didn’t see a lot of those signs, I didn’t see anger. I didn’t see any sort of violence or undertones of agitation. It was so covert.
From the beginning of a relationship, my husband gaslit me. And creating this alternate reality for me. My husband says I’m the problem. And I believed him right away. So I was immediately hooked. I feel like maybe he didn’t need to go to another tactic as far as being more aggressive, or maybe that’s just not his flavor of abuse. I’m not sure why. But I didn’t see him as an angry person.
I just thought I was the problem. We would get into these fights, but he wasn’t actually fighting back. It was just me basically fighting with a wall, because I knew there was something going on. I knew he was lying to me, but I could never prove it. He just capitalized on that and made me believe I was crazy.
So from the beginning, I started therapy and have gone to multiple therapists on and off over the past decade or so looking for what’s wrong with me. How do I change me to make this work?
He Took My Honesty, And Used It To His Advantage
Anne: Would you define his behavior as like problem solving? He seemed reasonable and that you just had some serious problems that you needed to work through. Had he manipulated you to that point? Is that kind of what I’m hearing?
J.R.: Yes, that’s accurate. When you said manipulating, that stirred something in me to remember when we started dating. I have a keen self awareness, and I told him flat out. I’ve struggled with jealousy in the past. And it is something that I am trying to work on and move through, but I just want to be upfront that is a struggle of mine. So I think right there, he took my honesty and used that to his advantage.
Anne: So in that way, he weaponized your vulnerability against you, but you were not aware of this at the time.
J.R.: Right. I had no clue. Because of my spiritual background and upbringing, I saw him as this tool in my life that God used to bring about sanctification in me. So I just really was like, okay, this person is like a mirror pointing out the things in me that need to change, the ways I need to grow. And I was thankful for that.
Anne: Was he using spiritual abuse? So was he like quoting scripture? The effects of spiritual abuse are so intense.
J.R.: I think it was mostly coming from my own values and convictions. And what was ingrained in me. I don’t know he was explicit about it, but I think he definitely capitalized on that. He was on staff at our church. So the spiritual abuse, it did come from him, but I would say, trickled down from our pastor.
Clergy & Therapists Enable Emotional Abuse, When They Say I’m The Problem
J.R.: It seemed like the perfect cocktail that just worked in his favor. Against me to keep me right where he wanted me.
Anne: So because you spent so many years in therapy, thinking that it was you that had the problem. Rather than realizing what was going on. What are your thoughts about all that time you spent in therapy now?
J.R.: I’ve been able to do a lot of personal work that has made me a better mother, friend and person in general, so I don’t regret it. But when I started, I would not talk to any therapist who wasn’t Christian based. And had a religious, specifically Christian background.
That was something important to me. And now when I look for someone to confide in or get advice from, I’m very wary of Christians. This is sad, because I still have a strong faith, and my spiritual journey is important to me. But I lost a lot of trust in the church community and in Christians who are in positions of influence. Because I saw so many that could have helped me, and not only didn’t help me get to safety, but actually very firmly rooted me deeper into the abuse.
Anne: Yeah, that’s so hard. Did you experience that layer of spiritual abuse where they blame you by asking you, if you’ve prayed hard enough, or if you have enough faith or submitted? Were you in the type of Christian Church that wanted you to submit to your husband? Was that a thing in your faith?
J.R.: Growing up? Not so much. I didn’t grow up in what I would consider complementarian, male led, spiritual atmosphere.
I Was Drawn In To Complementarian Views
J.R.: Once I met my husband, he swept me away with many of these toxic patriarchal teachings. They used those against me saying I’m the problem in our marriage.
Anne: For people unfamiliar with complementarian views, or that paradigm of gender roles, can you talk about that?
J.R.: It’s this hierarchical structure that God put in the Bible that puts husbands as heads of their wives, but then in a church structure, it would put men in positions of authority. In many areas, it completely disqualifies women for even holding a leadership or authority position in the church.
Anne: When you were first introduced to it, what spoke to you about it? Now with where you are in your life, my guess is that you wouldn’t be drawn to it. Back then, what ideas did you find compelling about it?
J.R.: I wasn’t interested when it was first introduced. It was John MacArthur who…
Anne: I have no idea who that is.
J.R.: Oh, good, bless you. I’m glad you don’t, because it’s terrible. My ex, we were at his Bible college. And we were sitting in an empty room on campus, and watched this sermon. By the end of it, I was just bawling. I had never heard someone be so cruel, ruthless, and just not compassionate at all from the pulpit like that.
He talked about women and our roles. And why we’re made the way we’re made. I hadn’t even started my journey of being a wife or motherhood. So I didn’t have personal experience. But I just sat there feeling like if I was a woman who either didn’t want to have children. Maybe I wanted to be married, but didn’t find the right person.
Complementarian Influence & Coercion
J.R.: Or maybe I was struggling with infertility, hearing this would feel like a slap in the face. That God designed you for these things, and basically apart from these things, you’d don’t have worth. The way he framed it, I wasn’t fulfilling the purpose of my life. I remember crying. I remember resisting, but I loved Jesus. My faith was sincere, very important to me, and between my ex and the pastor.
I just felt like they’re using scripture. That’s what it says. I guess that’s what it means. I guess I need to conform to this. And so I did it reluctantly, to be honest. I mean I’d just be asking him about his day and my husband always thinks I’m attacking him.
Anne: It’s not like it spoke to you. You’re saying, I resisted it, but I was coerced, maybe?
J.R.: A hundred percent. I would use that word, especially now that I’ve done a lot of my own growing and reflecting. Yes. I would say coerced. Because there were instances where I’ve always been involved in things like music, musical theater, and different things. I signed up to audition for The Voice, okay.
Anne: Ooh, sing for us now.
J. R.: Ah no, no, no. But it was like this fun thing I was going to do with my mom. It was right when I first got married.
I remember my husband and pastor at the time, talked at our dinner table in our home. Scripture was used against me. I was told I was being selfish. I was using worldly wisdom instead of seeking godly wisdom, because you’re not singing worship. So why would you even do this? I would be in the secular world. I was basically guilted and shamed out of auditioning.
My Husband Says I’m The Problem, So I Had To Give Up My Dreams
Anne: Coerced, did your fiancé have a job?
J.R.: Fancy that you would mention that.
Anne: I just want to bring up the misogyny here, right? Did the pastor say to him, You should not work at this job because it’s in the world.
J.R.: That’s the thing. My fiance was the only other staff member on the staff at this church. This upset my family. And it caused a huge argument and rift between me, my parents, and my sister. Because they were like, what are you doing? This is your passion. This is what you want. Why are you not pursuing this? And I pretty much parroted all the scripture back to them. Personally, what I experienced in this complementarianism bubble.
I needed to protect my marriage, because I wasn’t my own autonomous person. We were one, but I had to defer to him. So there was no me, there was only him. Because if there’s one and I don’t have a say, well, who’s the one? It’s him. So I parroted all this back to them, and they were concerned. But I was newly married, and I thought, this is my husband.
I need to respect him. So I bought into everything my husband and pastor told me. I didn’t like it. But I believed it was what the Bible said. And that was enough for me to be like, okay, I guess this is what I do now.
Anne: Are you surprised and shocked to find out that it was psychological abuse? That it wasn’t God, because God created you, and he gave you these amazing talents. Don’t hide your candle under a bushel. So I guess the scriptures only apply to men.
Realizing Psychological Abuse
Anne: They don’t apply to women, because you’ve got this candle, and they’re telling you to hide it under a bushel.
J.R.: Right, until it came to leading worship in the church, which they used me for and didn’t compensate. It was very, yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Honestly, it was until I started listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. It took a long time to use that word and see it for what it is.
Anne: Many women love truth and love God. They want to do the right thing so much that they’re willing to sacrifice themselves. I’m like, wow, women are brave, strong and powerful. They’re making these decisions because they’re such courageous, incredible people. There’s nothing about sacrificing everything about yourself that is weak. Then to realize that your husband and pastor coerced you. To unknowingly sacrifice it to wickedness is devastating and heartbreaking.
J.R.: They inundated him with this type of theology and doctrines, and fed all that to me. And I was so excited and passionate about Jesus. I wanted to find what is God’s will? And if that’s God’s will, then I’m going to do it. I flipped 180 degrees from what my parents taught me growing up. I grew up around strong women, women who were opinionated, loud. And then I flipped over to, oh, the only good type of Christian woman is a submissive one.
I need a quiet spirit. I need to be timid, I need to be meek. And I struggled with that. Because it didn’t resonate with who I felt like I was. Who I felt like God made me to be. But I just latched on and believed that was my role in life, and that I wasn’t good at it.
You’re So Good At Being You & He’s The Problem
Anne: That breaks my heart, because you’re so good at being you. We’re so good at being ourselves. And that’s who God made us be. So it breaks my heart when women try to contort themselves in this misogynistic view of who they are. What gets lost is God loves us, God loves you. He created you for you, not to be subservient to someone else. That is lost when spiritual abuse comes into play.
You’ve talked about how you went to therapy. You talked about how your husband manipulated you to alter the way you viewed yourself and religion to try to survive this situation. Thinking because my husband says I’m the problem, this would make things better.
J.R.: It wasn’t until I discovered the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast that I finally realized it didn’t matter what I did. It wasn’t going to “work” because he was the problem. And I was believing for so long that I was the problem. So I really spent so many years adding child after child into this mess, banging my head against the wall.
When I was a stay at home mom for the beginning of my children’s lives. I remember just saying things to him. It’s hard to do all the things in a day that you want me to do in the house. Like, make the meal, keep the house clean, do this and that with the kids.
And I said, I can’t do it all, but what is one thing that would mean a lot to you? When you come home from work, it’s like, Oh, I’m so thankful that this thing is done. I would ask him things like that, because I knew it wasn’t working.
Discovery & My Husband Lies And Says I’m The Problem
J.R.: I wanted it to work, and I am convinced I am the problem. Because my husband says I’m the problem. And it was so ingrained in me that divorce is wrong. Divorce is not an option. So I was like, it’s got to work. If it’s not working, I’m not doing the right thing or I’m not trying hard enough, because if I put it on him, then I feel hopeless.
If it’s up to him. He’s not willing to change. So then I’m stuck in this horrible marriage forever. It made more sense to take it upon myself, because at least then I had some control.
Anne: Did you ever discover infidelity?
J.R.: I found exploitative content on his phone and I can remember it so clearly. I was sitting in his car. He had run back into the house to grab something. He came back out to the car, and I was sitting there staring. And I showed it to him. Didn’t even say anything. Just showed it to him, and he looked me in the eyes and denied it. And it took me aback. Looking back now, I’m not going to lie.
It’s hard not to be almost mad at myself, because right then and there I knew what was in front of my face. I saw it with my own eyes. And this man is sitting there just lying through his teeth. Like, why would you even lie about that? I have it right in front of me.
He pushed back. And eventually, I’m like, well, I don’t care what you say. I’m seeing it in front of my face. So I don’t know why you’re trying to pretend this isn’t what it is. I’m crushed and devastated.
He Struggles With Accountability & I Pretend Things Are Fine
J.R.: I didn’t know what this was and how it worked to think anything. I just thought, okay. Maybe a part of me thought this was going to be everybody. At the time, he was still in Bible college. It was almost trendy for the guys to talk about “accountability” and, you know. Oh my gosh. If I hear the word struggle.
Anne: Their struggle.
J.R.: Oh yes, I didn’t like it, but I was, well, that’s what it is. It’s a struggle, and he’s trying. You don’t know what you don’t know. Throughout our dating relationship and then our engagement, I would say it would go like months at a time. Where I wouldn’t find anything. He wouldn’t say anything, but then discover something on his phone.
Whenever that would happen, I would get upset, and we’d have this big blowout. I would just decide, he’s not honest with me about this, so I need to let it go and stop thinking about it. Because I’m gonna drive myself crazy. I didn’t know how to reach out for help. I just thought, I guess I just have to pretend things are fine to survive.
Anne: Well, and that’s why some people call emotional abuse victims survivors, because everything you do in this scenario is to survive. So that’s where the term surviving comes from. I’ve always not liked that term, because you’re still in the middle of it. I’m like, I haven’t survived anything yet.
I’m still on the boat, and the boat is still sinking. I don’t feel like I’ve survived. I like the term victim, it’s straightforward, it’s very empowering. Because once you realize no one’s coming to save me, I need to start making my way to safety.
Complicated Relationship With Religion
J.R.: Yeah, obviously, it’s not the victim’s fault. Some people, might say, nobody even tried to tell me or warn me. I did have family and friends concerned, but I saw their opposition to my marriage as a spiritual attack on my relationship. So my relationship with the church and religion has become complicated. Because I attribute a lot of the way of thinking that kept me for so long to spiritual or religious teachings. That don’t actually align with what I believe Jesus teaches.
But when you’re told from so many sources that you’re supposed to trust. And people tell you who are supposed to be guided by the Holy Spirit, it’s hard to undo some of that indoctrination, yeah.
Anne: I agree. It’s really sad how perpetrators know how to take the things that women care about and weaponize them against them. It benefits him, at our expense.
Instead, realize that God loves us. He genuinely thinks we’re delightful, funny, fun and awesome. He created our talents, and some of us might not have cooking talents, and that’s okay because we have other talents. God created us for the good of humanity, including ourselves. We’re part of that.
Finding BTR.ORG & Seeking Help And Discovering That I’m Not The Problem
Anne: So you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, you’re listening to the podcast. You realize, whoa, I’m being abused. Talk about what steps you take at this point?
J.R.: We have already been seeing a therapist together, which I do not recommend. Obviously, I didn’t know he was abusive. But, now in hindsight, never go to couples therapy with an abusive person. She started talking about betrayal trauma and had him write a therapeutic disclosure.
Anne: So she did a disclosure, which we don’t recommend here. And didn’t say whoa, whoa, whoa, we’ve got to stop the couple therapy.
J.R.: Yeah, I don’t think any of this was a great way to go about this. The route this went was incredibly and unnecessarily painful. Because when she had him do the disclosure, I just knew in my heart that he wasn’t going to be honest. And I told her, I don’t want to hear this. It’s going to be a bunch of lies. It started to get me thinking. That’s probably how I found your podcast.
I started to become aware of this concept of betrayal trauma. And so, searching for resources, I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And then I got partial disclosure after partial disclosure. It was very painful. And one night he told me his version of this is the whole truth.
He Uses A Church Computer For Inappropriate Content
Anne: I like how you said his version. This is a common pattern that they’ll say this is the whole truth and they’ll tell a really horrific thing that they’ve done.
J.R.: It’s no, no…
Anne: And then you think, wow, that has to be everything, because he’s like, I’m getting it all out on the table. And then you find out later it was not. Because there’s something else he doesn’t want to say. So he tells you his version of this is the whole story.
J.R.: Yes, we’re sitting in our living room. He points across the living room at a computer. That was actually used for ministry related purposes. Specifically with kids ministry. So it wasn’t even his own personal computer, but he points at this computer, this laptop. And says, “That’s the device I use to look at stuff.” It was never on my radar. No one ever monitored It. It was never something that I would have even thought he was using for many reasons.
I mean, it didn’t belong to him. He didn’t own it. The church owned it, and it was used for kids’ ministry. So, the next day, I purchased tickets for me and my kids to fly back home to Pennsylvania. At this point, divorce is still not even an option. It’s not on my radar, but I knew I needed space from him. I needed lots of distance for me and my children. We were just going to separate. We actually bought a ticket for him.
Going Home To Get Away
J.R.: Mine was just a one-way, because I didn’t know when I would return to Washington. His was both ways, so that he could help me get there with the kids. Because I would have been flying with three kids, three and under. So he flew with me, and then was going to get back on the plane and return to Washington. And it didn’t take too long into our separation to realize that I was never going to return to Washington.
If he wanted our marriage to work, and if our marriage was going to work, he would have to return to Pennsylvania. Where my support system was, so that he could potentially salvage our marriage. So I told him that, and he spent considerable time negotiating. He didn’t want to lose his job at the church, didn’t want to lose his position of power and authority, and didn’t want people to know the truth.
And he spread some lies about what was going on between us. He said I was going through postpartum depression, and that’s why I was away. People from the church were texting me and telling me to use this essential oil.
Anne: Wow!
J.R.: And eat this kind of food. And oh, the baby blues are so hard, aren’t they? It was a very difficult time, and throughout it all, it became clear to me how bad the situation was. I was becoming more realistic about the fact that it was not going to change.
Church’s Role & Support, He Still Says I’m The Problem
J.R.: We went through this whole thing with the church in Washington. I had to have men in church leadership speak on my behalf and stand up for me to even be heard. I feel grateful for those men, and I love them. They feel like brothers to me, but it was eye-opening to see that I wasn’t going to be heard unless I had men vouching for me. I was temporarily living with my parents with my three young kids in a very small house in Pennsylvania.
The church out there gave me his stipend and released him from his position. He realized he had nothing else there, and returned to Pennsylvania, got a bunch of praise and glory for returning to his family. He was the big hero for coming back. And I was like, you just came back because you didn’t have anything else out there. You tried so hard to salvage a life that you knew your wife and children were never going to be part of. And then when that didn’t work, you came back.
He made some steps that I guess looked like progress when he moved back here. In hindsight, it was all just manipulation to get what he wanted. So we moved into an apartment together again, to try to salvage the marriage. It was way too soon. The things that I needed to see during our separation to move towards reconciliation with him. I didn’t see any of those.
He bucked against everything, but I so desperately wanted it to work that I still moved back in with him. We were only living together for about two months. And the thing that finally made me leave him for good, unfortunately, was being hospitalized.
I Experience A Mental Breakdown & Escalation Of Abuse
J.R.: It wasn’t physical abuse from him, but I had a mental breakdown. I was suicidal and committed myself to the ER.
Anne: He didn’t put you in the hospital by punching you in the face. But mentally, you were in such bad shape after six, seven weeks of being with him in your vicinity, in your home. That’s where you were at. That’s how bad things got. I’m so sorry to hear that. I want to warn women that things usually get worse if he moves back in after a separation. Because they think they have to assert even more control, or they’re going to lose control of you again.
So once they get you in their vicinity again, at least, the emotional and psychological abuse will ramp up. But it might not seem like that to you, because it might seem nice. They might seem kind. And that’s when you think you’re going crazy, because you’re like, he’s not yelling at me. He’s not angry. Why am I going crazy? I’m not sure what his behaviors were, but some women experience it like that because he’s being great. He’s doing the dishes.
With my ex, he read scriptures every night and initiated family prayer. I felt like my sanity was hanging by a thread. And I was like, is that thread still there?
J.R.: Yeah, most of the time, I felt like I needed to pray more. I just need to read my Bible more. So it was still all my problem. And that just wasn’t doing it. I obviously wanted so badly to make it work. Not so much because I loved him, but because we had children, and obviously this wasn’t the case.
The Breaking Point & Filing for Divorce
J.R.: But I felt like if I left him, I was the reason our children would be in this “broken home.” That’s what people would see it as. So having that breakdown, being hospitalized, realizing that I didn’t want to live. It took that for me to say, if I’m not around for my kids, that’s not what’s best for them either. If I think staying in this abuse is what’s best for my children, they might not have a mom by the end of it.
That was really hard. After being hospitalized. My sister was amazing. She took a week off of work to be there for me and my children, whatever I needed. And I remember being at her house. She was bathing all the kids, hers and mine. There were eight of them. They were just going in and out of the bath, one after the other. And I remember her saying. “JR, if you stay with him, you’re never going to get better.” It seems like such a simple statement, but I needed to hear it in that moment.
When I came out of the hospital, I still wasn’t going to leave him. But his actions that week following that incident just solidified for me that he would never change. That it would never get better, that I couldn’t put myself back in that situation. And it was like, yeah, if I want to get better for the sake of my children. I cannot be with this man. That’s the bottom line. That’s when I filed for divorce and felt confident about that decision.
Systematic Dismantling of Self: Because He Said I’m the Problem
Anne: It’s hard after his and society sometimes or a misogynistic church, their systematic, intentional dismantling your sense of self so that you wouldn’t trust yourself. That’s why I have people like you, J.R., on the podcast to talk about it. It is so much more systemic than people realize. There are so many places that try and talk us out of it. They call you crazy, she’s too much or she’s not enough.
I’ve talked with women all over the world from every religion, no religion, atheist or agnostic. They have faced the same problems. But in different ways, through the court system or their workplace. It’s so hard that there’s all this gendered, emotional and psychological abuse happening.
We got Om’s Law passed in Utah because my friend, Leah Moses, her son was murdered. Some of you have seen me in the news about that. If you go to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery, YouTube channel. We have a playlist called BTR.ORG in the news. And you can see the news broadcasts about it.
I bring that up because even agnostic or atheist women experienced it in the court system and are shocked, like, wait, wait, wait. I thought the justice system was supposed to protect me from abuse. What is going on? Why is it getting worse? Are you surprised at how systemic the misogyny is, and how difficult it is to get out of abuse?
J.R.: I feel like I’ve never been a super optimistic person. I would probably call myself a realist. And I definitely had more hope in the system and in our institutions, especially in religious institutions, in people in general. So I’m working through a lot of bitterness about the system and the church specifically.
Announcing the Divorce & The Custody Battle Begins
J.R.: So, I asked friends of mine if they would be present for me to tell him that I wanted the divorce. I had written a letter and read it to him. The friends were so shocked at his lack of any kind of feeling, like they’re watching, as I’m telling him the heartbreaking story of why I need to divorce him. And he’s just emotionless. At this point in time, the children are like 3, 2, and less than a year old, and I have been a stay at home mom with them their whole lives.
I already had a lawyer come up with an agreement that I would be the primary caregiver. He started fighting me on that. I was saying something about me being the primary caregiver, and he was like, I don’t see how you’re the primary caregiver. I was like, wait, I’m literally with them more of the time. It’s not in question.
Anne: Also all this complimentarian stuff.
J.R.: Right, that’s my job.
Anne: Didn’t you tell me the whole time I was supposed to be the primary caregiver? Like you’re gonna suddenly throw it out the window?
J.R.: Right, exactly.
Anne: They’re not logical.
J.R.: No, no.
Anne: These abusers. Because this goes against all his complementarian values. He’s told you multiple times you are the primary caregiver, because that’s your “role here on earth.” And without that, you’re nothing. And then suddenly you’re not supposed to do it anymore.
J.R.: Right, they have to grasp at straws when they realize it’s all falling apart. I’ve just seen in co-parenting with this person that they’ll say the craziest things. They will contradict themselves all over the place. And so this is why I’m here.
Nervousness Before Speaking Out
J.R.: Right before, I was so nervous. I was like feeling sick to my stomach. I was like, I don’t know why am I doing this? What am I doing? I’m remarried and my current husband, he’s like, You’re doing this because it’s important to you and the lies and voices in your head that they don’t want you to be speaking out, to be confident, to help other people, to share your story. The gaslighting of my husband says I’m the problem.
So, all that being said, you feel crazy. It’s horrible. It’s what I felt for so long, and it’s what BTR.ORG helped me realize that I wasn’t. Even though my husband says I’m the problem. But you feel that way with the justice system, or injustice system. The people who are supposed to help, where are they? It’s infuriating.
Anne: Talk about how that went down in court.
J.R.: At the time, I had just come out of the hospital, I was just trying to get on my feet again.
I got my kids into a daycare, I got a job, I got health insurance for all of us, which he never had for us, all within like a week.
Rebuilding After Hospitalization Because I Took All The Blame
J.R.: So I say I wasn’t in the greatest place, but I just want, yes, thank you, thank you. I was so tired and so done. And I wanted it to be over. And he wasn’t gonna concede to me being the primary caregiver or having primary custody. Hindsight is 20/20. If I knew better. Then I would have taken him to court, and I would have easily gotten the custody, but I’m still trying to be reasonable.
Anne: Like at the time. You’re assuming he’s capable of being reasonable. But learning since then, oh, I am reasonable. He’s incapable of being reasonable. So I need to be strategic with him. Which is why I wrote the The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. To use strategies because they are not reasonable.
So you can’t treat them as if they’re going to react in a reasonable way. You have to be very strategic with how you deal with them.
J.R.: Yes, exactly. And I was like, I don’t have the money to go to court. I don’t have the mental capacity right now to go to court. I just want to be divorced and move forward. At the time, I would say to people, he’s a fine dad. He’s just a terrible partner.
Of course, I made him look like a good dad when we were together. I made him look like a good dad. So now we’re not together, he’s shown his true colors. And it’s obvious that he is not a good dad. So I just said, okay, we’ll do 50/50. And I have regretted that every day since.
Experiencing Courtroom Misogyny
Anne: Are you still on 50/50 now?
J.R.: Unfortunately, I took him to court last year, and it was a brutal experience. The judge slut shamed me. My ex brought in a local politician he’s somehow connected with. Who for some reason could sit and observe when my husband wasn’t even allowed to come in. He brought people in who had a bone to pick with me, who perjured themselves on the stand.
it was a mess. By the end, nothing changed. They said, everything seems to be working just fine, so we’re not going to change anything.
Yeah, it worked fine because I picked up all the pieces, I love my kids. Of course, I’m going to do everything for them. I’m never going to let a custody agreement stop me from making sure they have what they need for school, but it just became a pattern. And so I was like, if I’m doing more than oh, it’s such a joke.
I’m using air quotes for “50/50”. Then every time I say that, like I’m doing 50 percent of the work, I don’t have the right to operate as though I have that custody. He would argue with me about medical things. He would argue about anything he could possibly argue about. And it was just things that I always took care of, and he was always happy for me to take care of them.
But now, if I made a decision, and he just felt like it one day, he would just nitpick it, and he would say, I don’t agree, and we’d go back and forth. And I didn’t have the rights, legally, to do certain things, because we’re 50/50.
Anne’s Own Fight For Custody
Anne: I was in the same exact boat you are in for eight years dealing with my abusive ex. He caused problems every day. He would cancel medical appointments. And didn’t want the kids to take any extracurricular activities. He would try to coerce them into not doing literally simple things, like baseball or taking trombone lessons, piano lessons.
I have a master’s degree in curriculum and instruction. At the time, I’ve been podcasting teaching women how to set boundaries, and directing the coaching services here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery for years. And I’m thinking, of course, I’m going to get more custody. So I’ll take him to court and just shut all this chaos down.
I had a stack of documentation at the time about all the chaos he was causing. I had a current protective order, pictures of bruises on me and also the kids. So I thought this is a no brainer. My ex is an attorney. He just walked in the guardian ad litem they like, were in the same attorney club.
J.R.: Oh, I get it.
Anne: The thing was over. He ended up getting more custody, and I was furious. Like what? I’m doing everything right. Like with everything I know. I’m well-spoken and presented all of it. I have all the documentation. I have everything and I can’t be free from abuse. His messages almost every day abuse me. If I can’t figure this out, no one can. So I started praying and fasting about it, and pondering and praying for deliverance.
Anne’s Miraculous Deliverance
Anne: I feel like I was led and guided. I know that if you’ve been spiritually abused, that is triggering. So I try not to talk about that part as much. But I do need to tell that part of the story, because I promised God, like if you deliver me, I will shout it from the rooftops. This was not me. This was an absolute miracle. And my sister, who’s not religious, she was like, no, you did it. You did it through your hard work. You have the ideas. And I’m like, no, no, no.
These were from God. And she’s sometimes mad at me. Because she’s like, no, you’re a hard worker. You should tell people all the hard things you did. Take that with a grain of salt, whether you’re religious or not. So because I was able to deliver myself and my kids from abuse using strategy and not going to court, I was like, is this just a fluke, is this just me?
So for two years, I tested the strategies with local people in my area. To see if The Living Free Strategies helped them get delivered.
Miracle after miracle has occurred with these strategies. And it makes me mad that a victim is doing everything right. She’s reporting, she’s telling people what’s going on. And they’re not listening. This isn’t about how skilled you are at being a mom or communicator. This is about knowing what tactics they use, the traps they use, and how to avoid them through strategy.
The Living Free Workshop Is A Miracle
Anne: And so that’s what I teach in the BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop to give you specific tools to write strategic messages to these abusers to deliver ourselves.
We’ve seen awesome success, and I’ve trained the coaches so they can help women do it if they’re still having a little trouble applying it. So taking that Living Free Workshop helps a ton, because they don’t care about the kids.
J.R.: Yeah.
Anne: They only care about control over the kids, and also control over you. And if they didn’t have the kids to use, they would continue to harass you. Or bother you, or be entertained by the chaos they cause in your life. They wouldn’t have anything because they’re not interested in parenting.
Is he remarried?
J.R.: He dated a lot. He’s moved women and their children into his home with my kids without telling me.
Anne: Wow, wow, wow, wow, the super righteous guy?
J.R.: Oh, yeah. Oh. He’s let his true colors show. Since leaving him, he has been pretty wild, too. About the judge, like, slut shaming me on the stand. That’s because I got pregnant out of wedlock after leaving my ex.
Anne: Your ex had an affair out of wedlock just like you did.
J.R.: Right, right, exactly.
Anne: So there’s the misogyny at play. He can’t get pregnant.
J.R.: I brought that point up, I actually wrote an open letter to the judge.
Issues Relevant To Custody Are Not Used Fairly
J.R.: If our activity was relevant to the custody case for our children, then why didn’t we ask him about his partners? But it wasn’t about our partners. It was about the fact that I had a baby, which I also have taken very good care of and have proved to be a very good mother.
Because of what you said about him, like being a religious guy. People have looked at me and been like, is she who she always said she was? And it’s like, you know what? I don’t know. I’m discovering who I am because for 10 years, it was stamped out of me.
Anne: Yeah, it’s okay to change. It’s okay to say. Religion the way I practiced it before isn’t working for me. I’m assuming you didn’t end up marrying the father of this child. And I’m assuming for good reason. Is that accurate?
J.R.: The father wanted me to abort, and I wouldn’t. And so he said he didn’t want anything to do with it. I considered adoption. He said he didn’t want anything to do with that either. Now I can look back and offer myself compassion, because I was very broken. I was holding down a job whenever I didn’t have my children.
50/50 definitely engaging in pretty risky behavior, things that weren’t good for me. They weren’t healthy for me. But I was just so broken. I always wanted to love and be loved, and that did not happen in my marriage. I spent a long time begging for it. Trying to fix what was broken. And obviously it wasn’t working. I wasn’t actually healing, and I got pregnant, and I thought it was gonna ruin my life.
My New Baby Saved Me
J.R.: But it actually saved me. It stopped me from continuing down the path I was on. My daughter might’ve saved my life. I had been praying for God to send me a Boaz. If you know the story of Boaz it is what’s called a kinsman redeemer. I just found myself praying that God would send me someone who would take up the role that my husband was supposed to do and would fulfill what I felt like I was promised.
Anne: Kind of like, I’ve been faithful to my vows. Now I need someone who will be faithful to the vows as well?
J.R.: I’m not gonna like sugarcoat it. Looking back, the advice I would give to other women is just to wait. Like give it time. So like, I’m not advocating for this. But shortly after that, I met my current husband. Because I was pregnant, things did move pretty fast. Obviously, we’re a work in progress. We should always be growing, but it’s like, why shouldn’t I be ready for a relationship? I was ready 10 years ago when I met this abuser, I wanted a relationship.
I wanted respect and a partnership. Now that I have children and am doing everything I should have done, I am ready. I’m ready. I’ve been ready. I think it’s important to educate yourself and like, be aware of things that maybe you weren’t before. So you can recognize red flags and avoid abuse, like all that is important.
Having Challenges In My New Relationship
J.R.: My current husband had a addiction, which I didn’t know about when we got married. So when I found that out, it was devastating. And I thought, I cannot believe I’m doing this again. He robbed me of the chance to make a different decision. If I knew this, then I wouldn’t have married him.
Anne: That men don’t recognize that abuse is crazy to me. Like, really? You’re literally coercing and scamming someone into marrying you. And then you say she’s the problem.
J.R.: 100% yes. My husband says I’m the problem. We had so many conversations. In the early days of dating of like, I have texts that I’ve gone back to like screenshot it of like me asking Hey, is this an issue? Is this a current issue? Please just tell me. I need to know. I need the truth. And just over and over again, lying. And I feel stupid, but how was I supposed to know? Like I thought he was telling me the truth.
Anne: How did you find out?
J.R.: In my first marriage, I unfortunately had to learn a lot about addiction, it became such a big part of my life. We’d be talking, and some of the things he would say wouldn’t make sense. And I’m like, no, no, no, no.
I’m not crazy if something feels off, then it probably is. So I just pushed and pushed. Honestly, it was brutal. I was like, I know this is a problem. Now it’s just a matter of you telling me the whole truth and not withholding anymore. And since then, I have got some of my close friends involved who have walked with me through everything.
When You Realize That Abuse Is The Problem, Not You
J.R.: Actually, they’re the friends who were there when I asked my ex for a divorce. They’re very close with me, and I’ve got them involved. And the husband, he’s the accountability partner for my husband on the software that we have on his devices. If I could go back, I probably would have stayed single.
Anne: Yeah. I thought the same thing after I found out he’d lied to me before we were married, and he’d been lying to me and saying it’s my fault. And I thought knowing what I know now. I wouldn’t have married him. In fact, I’ve been thinking a lot about that situation recently. I mean, I’m not in this situation now. So it’s easy for me to say, but I thought. Maybe an option I would consider is to say to him, since you scammed me into marrying, let’s get divorced.
And once we’re divorced. I’ll consider dating you, knowing what I know now. Because knowing that I got scammed into marrying you is too hard for me to live with. I would like to date you knowing the truth about you. And the opportunity to say yes to marriage without being coerced or manipulated.
J.R.: Since he did coerce me, that’s a really hard truth. Me feeling the heaviness of that day to day, even if it’s a great day, I carry it with me, you know?
Anne: Yeah. It is hard. I’m so sorry for everything you’ve been through. I’ve been there. I’ve done that. I am you, and you are me, and all of the listeners here have had these thoughts, trying to process what to do.
When You Know Your Not The Problem, Survival Is Possible
Anne: Women are so afraid to get to the edge and look over it, because they don’t know what’s there. It is hard to not believe that and figure out the truth. And for those who have done it, we’re like, it’s okay, it’s not a cliff. It’s just a slope and you’re going to survive. And so sharing your story of survival will help so many women. So thank you for being brave to share that part of you. We really appreciate it.
J.R.: Yeah, thanks, Anne.
How To Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband (Or Ex) – 5 Stages
Jun 04, 2024
So many women are searching: how to stop emotional abuse from husband. Or even how to stop emotional abuse from ex-husband.
Being delivered from abuse is something that all victims hope for (or pray for). Victims of emotional and psychological abuse often put their hope in the abuser changing.
To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
In my study, I found a pattern for deliverance from abuse that has 5 stages:
1. Things Get So Bad That You Wonder If There’s Something Better
Sometimes, things have to get really bad before you realize you need things to change. Maybe something big happens or things just keep getting worse and worse until you can’t ignore it anymore. It’s like waking up one day and realizing, “I can’t do this anymore.”
2. You Start to Do Something About It
After you decide you can’t take it anymore, the next step is to do something about it. This might not fix everything right away, and that’s okay. Trying to do something, even if it’s small, means you’re learning and getting stronger each time. It’s like practicing for a big play, trying different things to see what works best.
3. Commit To Protect Yourself (No Matter What)
This step is when you decide to make a big change and stick with it. It could be deciding not to do something for the person hurting you anymore, or maybe even moving away from them. It’s like crossing a bridge and making sure you can’t go back to the way things were before.
4. Using Protective Strategies Day-by-Day, Not Knowing Exactly Where They Will Lead You
Even after you’ve made the change, it might feel strange for a bit. You’re getting used to a new way of living where you’re in charge. This time is for healing, finding out who you are, and starting to build a happy life. You might pick up new hobbies, make new friends, or work on your career. Little by little, things start to get better.
https://youtube.com/shorts/J4S2vwdknzc
5. You Can See A Clear Path To The Peaceful Life You Want
In the last step, you start to really believe you can have a happy life without being hurt. It feels like seeing the light at the end of a dark tunnel. You think about having a safe home, doing things that make you happy, and being with people who treat you well. This step is all about going from just getting by to living a great life, finding out who you are, and doing things you love.
Thinking about a happy life helps you make good choices for yourself as you move away from being hurt. It’s like a light guiding you to a future where you’re happy and safe.
Getting better after being hurt is a big journey. It’s about needing a change, making that change, sticking with it, getting used to the new way, and finally, dreaming of a happy future. It’s a way for people to get out of a hurtful situation, take control of their lives, find out who they are, and look forward to a peaceful and happy future.
Navigating The Journey From Abuse To Freedom
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop help women gain deliverance from abuse and ultimately find freedom.
Transcript: How To Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband (Or Ex)
Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Janet. As I describe how to stop emotional abuse from your husband or ex. And, spoiler alert! You can’t stop it, but you can protect yourself from it. So these are the five stages of protecting yourself. As you’re listening, if you can’t quite visualize this. There is a map embedded in this transcript below. And you can see that map.
I’ll share part of the story of how I discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop Strategies. The strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced. Before I discovered these strategies. I was trying to stop the emotional abuse from my ex-husband. Because even eight years after divorce, I still felt like I was being hunted almost daily. He was messaging me all the time.
And was counter-parenting. He cancelled my kids’ medical appointments. He was trying to manipulate the situation so my kids wouldn’t take sports, so he didn’t have to pay for it. It was just constant stress and trauma. And I got really, really angry because I was like, I’m so good at boundaries. I was doing everything “right”. And the court wouldn’t help me, and clergy wouldn’t help me. I thought like, is there no way to actually live free from abuse?
And people often said things like, well, you got to move on with your life. Why don’t you just get over it? You got divorced eight years ago, they’re thinking the abuse happened eight years ago, and I’m like, it happened today. When he messaged me today, he lied to me, and he tried to undermine my children. So I wondered how to stop emotional abuse from husband?
The Communication Trap With Abusive Ex-Partners
Anne: Janet before you enrolled in The Living Free Workshop. Can you talk about all the things you tried, how to stop experiencing emotional abuse from your husband?
Janet: A lot of us have gone through counseling, marriage therapy, or 12 step for wives of pornography addicts, and most of the time they focus on our communication skills with our husbands or our exes. I felt that I could change the outcome if I could just communicate and explain it in a way that he could understand, treating him like he just didn’t know.
We catch him in a lie, in real time, and we have full evidence. And we think if I point out, you just lied to me. He’s going to have an aha moment, own it. Hey, I’m so sorry. I totally just lied to you. And maybe do differently. So if I told him and explained it to him, it would stop. And the opposite happened every single time.
In the Living Free Workshop, one lesson talked about when he has access to communication to continue to abuse us. The problem is that communicating with them is a trap. Right in the beginning, when we started to share the kids 50/50 from both of our houses, and things were falling apart at dad’s house.
The Temptation To Argue & Communicate With Abusers
Janet: And then I would get the kids back, and they would kind of dumpster unload all the things that had happened at dad’s house. I call him and say, hey, I can help you. You know, the mornings are chaotic. Can you set a timer? Wake yourself up at six, so you can wake the kids up at six thirty. the lunches pre-made, or teach the kids how to make their own lunches if you’re busy getting ready for work. And I thought it would help. Guess what happened? It just got worse, more chaos.
Then he stopped waking the kids up altogether. They were late almost every day to school. If the kids would say anything, their dad would start to cry and say how sorry he was that he is trying his best. This is so hard, he’s working so hard, and he can’t seem to do anything right. His manipulation was so bad, so communication just doesn’t work.
Anne: Yeah, and The Living Free Workshop explains why. So I’ll leave that to Living Free, because it does a really good job of explaining why communication doesn’t help. And then what to do. Luckily, the Living Free strategies can protect you from abuse without communicating anything to him. It helps you understand how to stop emotional abuse.
Strategies For Deliverance From Abusive Communication: How To Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband
Anne: It will teach you how to do strategic communication. So that if you communicate with him, the communication is protective. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not a religious organization for many reasons. One of them is that we have clients from all over the world. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery team is interfaith, inter paradigm. We have women from different Christian faiths, other religions, agnostics, and atheists. Everybody is welcome here.
I always hesitate to share my own religious experience, because their husband and clergy have spiritually abused so many women. Many women are still experiencing the effects of spiritual abuse. So they find scriptures or scriptural references to be very triggery and I absolutely do not blame them. So for women who find religious things to be a little triggery or for my agnostic or atheist or Muslim friends. If you can bear with me as I talk about deliverance in the context of Christianity, because this is how I discovered the Living Free strategies.
If you take The Living Free Workshop, all of it is secular. It’s not in the context of religion, and the principles work, no matter what your religion or paradigm is. If you’re interested in reading more about my study, you can see some of it at the back of the Living Free Workbook. If you’re not interested in learning more about my study, you can just disregard those last few pages.
I realized the court could not answer stop the emotional abuse from my husband? Or would not, they probably could, but they refused to do anything to help me. I went to my clergy and said, hey, our church does not tolerate abuse. What are you going to do to not tolerate this?
Anne Blythe’s Personal Journey Toward Deliverance From Abuse
Anne: They literally just stared at me and blinked their eyes and didn’t know what to do. So I started praying, and everywhere in the scriptures, Christ is the Deliverer. He is the Savior. Over and over again, He delivers people from their enemies, saves people. So I thought, through my Savior, Jesus Christ, I should be able to get delivered. In part of my study, I read a bunch of deliverance books from various religions. And the best story we have of deliverance is Moses delivering the children of Israel out of Egypt.
So after studying deliverance in books for a year and continuing to pray about it. I decided to take a trip to Egypt. And Jerusalem with the specific intention of studying deliverance. In preparation for the trip. I wrote a bunch of prayers, and I put them on tiny pieces of paper. And while I was there, I prayed at the west wall in Jerusalem and stuck those prayers in the wall. And one of them was that I would be delivered, and then I could help deliver women all over the world.
Within six months of returning home from Jerusalem, after implementing the strategies I had discovered. I was delivered and my children were delivered. Without going to court. I learned how to stop emotional abuse from him.
Anne: I had a legal document written up, and I used strategy to send it to my ex, and he signed it, but there was no court involved. So now they do not have to go with him if they don’t want to. And the parent time schedule is only one weekend a month, from Friday at six to Sunday.
The Israelites’ Story As A Metaphor For Abuse Survivors
Anne: With no midweek and only two weeks in the summer. And only two holidays ever, period the whole year, only two holidays. So basically, we get to do whatever we want now. I no longer need to protect myself from emotional abuse from my husband. I’m free now.
I have this map of the children of Israel delivered, so Janet, you can see this. All right, so when I went to Egypt, I’m going to make up numbers here. But let’s say 500 feet on either side of the Nile is the most luscious, beautiful farmland because the water’s right there. And you can see when it changes from farm land that’s easy to water, bordering the Nile river, to a crazy absolute scary desert.
We were on the Nile, and I looked out and it was like green and then like sand. So, if you look at a map of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel at that time. Where the children of Israel were captive by Pharaoh. They were actually in the Nile delta, where there was a good farmland, lots of water. They weren’t living in a hole.
And they’ve been there for hundreds of years. They were born there. So the Israelites at that time didn’t know anything else. They had never been to the promised land. They knew nothing about it. So even though they were enslaved and oppressed, it’s the only thing they’d ever known. So when Moses is commanded to deliver the Israelites. They ask Pharaoh to let them go. And he says, no. So then God sends frogs and fire from the sky and turns the Nile into blood. All of those plagues.
1st Stage How To Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband: Things Get So Bad That You Wonder If There’s Something Better
Anne: Now everyone sees this as God’s way of forcing Pharaoh to let them go. But I actually think. It was for the Israelites. Because when these things happened to Pharaoh, when the Nile turned to blood and all the frogs and the fire from the sky. It wasn’t just happening to Pharaoh. It was also happening to the Israelites. So even though it’s the only thing they’ve ever known. It got so bad. They started thinking. Maybe there’s something better.
So for all abuse victims, this is stage one. When things get so bad, you start wondering. If there’s something better out there.
2nd Stage How To Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband: You Start To Do Something About It
The second stage, I’ll talk about in a story of Moses in just a minute, is you start to do something about it. Now many women are trying to figure out what’s going on. They start to try to find out how to stop emotional abuse from their husband.
They’re resisting the abuse by getting help. So many women will try pornography addiction, recovery or couple therapy. Janet. What did you try during this stage?
Janet: I tried anger management, sex addiction therapy, CSAT, couples therapy. All of the above.
Anne: Yeah, because that’s what everyone tells us to do. We don’t understand it’s abuse, we try to get our abusive husband to a therapist. We go for help. In the case of the Israelites. Moses starts by trying to negotiate with Pharaoh. I wonder if some Israelites wondered if they could maybe strike a deal with Pharaoh, where they had to work a little bit less. Where they got a little more food. The land, there is goodness there.
Overcoming Fear & Finding Freedom
Janet: This is the man that I built a family with, I love him. He isn’t horrible a hundred percent of the time, because I’m still in the fog of the abuse. So I haven’t even gotten the chance to feel relief enough to realize how much abuse is going on.
Anne: Right, at this point, the Israelites like legit might think more about the frogs, the fire from the sky, and the blood of the Nile. Than they are about Pharaoh’s oppression. Thinking that some of it is good. Not realizing that the good was also bad. It was grooming to keep them stuck, to keep them oppressed. The Living Free Workshop explains this really well.
So finally, after all these plagues, Pharaoh was like, fine. I think we underestimate how difficult it was. For an entire group of people to pack up and leave. They’re going out into the desert, they’ve never left before. They don’t know anything else. So I imagine them getting out their carts. And putting everything they own in these carts.
And I’m wondering if Pharaoh’s like, hold on no, no, no. You can’t take all those animals. You can’t take this cart. So there’s this period of time of figuring out who’s going to take what. And finally, they can actually move out. And they’re making their way out of Egypt. Now, if you look at a map, you’ll notice that the Jerusalem is up near where the delta is of the Nile,. And they could’ve just walked across the top of the Sinai peninsula instead of going south.
Navigating The Exodus: A Journey Of Survival
Anne: Assuming they’re led by God, he wants them to go this very hard way. That has a massive body of water in between Egypt and the Sinai peninsula. What are they going to do? Like build boats, you know? When I was there, I was like, what in the world? Why wouldn’t you just walk from point A to point B? That does not have a giant body of water. In between. But instead, they go south to the Red Sea. And they get stuck.
By this time, Pharaoh has changed his mind. He sent his armies after them. They can’t go forward. Or they’ll drown. And maybe some of them wanted to go back, but chances are, if they did go back, Pharaoh would take it up a notch and oppress them so that they could not escape again. And a miracle occurs. Moses parts, the red sea. Aside from the absolute awe of being completely blown away by this incredible miracle. Let’s think about the practicalities of this situation.
The Red Sea was not parted until this point. Water had covered the bottom of the red sea for thousands of years. There’s no well-worn path at the bottom of the red sea. So, if you start down this path, you’re going to be up to your waist in mud, tripping over rocks. And if it were me, I would think the entire time, is this water going to fall down on us and kill us?
They didn’t know if they would even survive crossing the Red Sea. I’m guessing that, due to the practicalities of the situation, some people were like, uh, I’ll take my chances with Pharaoh. Because, the way forward seems too dangerous.
Divorce & The Red Sea Crossing Analogy: Deliverance From Abuse
Anne: We don’t know how long it took the Israelites to cross the Red Sea in the mud, and the rocks. But it could have taken days. Luckily, the Lord held the Egyptians back with that pillar of fire. So they couldn’t come destroy them during the process of crossing. But again, the entire time they’re crossing, they don’t even know if they’re going to survive.
Janet: And they didn’t know what was on the other side. They’ve never tasted that freedom. They don’t know what that land will look like. So they could see the Red Sea parted freeze and not take those steps through the mud.
Anne: I remember praying. Save me, God saved me, save me. And God is like, yes, I’m here. I will save you. Start walking across the mud. And I’m thinking. But I don’t want to get my feet dirty. As I learned these strategies, I remember telling God, like, what, you want me to step in that mud?
Janet: This analogy of the Israelites approaching the Red Sea and not knowing what’s going to happen. Their life had to get so bad that it pushes them to conquer the fear of watching those waters part. Looking at that ground and actually doing the hard steps of sludging through with all their items. With the fear that the water might come down on them. They don’t know what’s on the other side. They don’t know if their enemies will get through.
It’s almost that gift of the emotional abuse from my husband got so bad that there’s no other choice. I don’t know what this will look like. I don’t know how hard it will be to pass through those waters.
3rd Stage Of How To Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband: Commit To Protect Yourself (No Matter What)
Anne: When I look at this map, I think the reason they went down south is instead of just going up and going east over the top part of the Sinai peninsula. Is that once they got to the other side and the water fell down, they couldn’t go back.
And that’s the third stage of how to stop emotional abuse from husband, protection. It’s protecting yourself through the strategies I teach in The Living Free Workshop, and committing to those strategies no matter what. No matter how much he tries to manipulate you or whatever grooming tactics he uses. That you maintain those safety strategies, not just with him, but with people around you.
Because I think the reason God had them go south and cross the Red Sea was because he did not want them to go back. It was also a protection. There would be no other way to stop Pharaoh’s army, had they gone across the north of the Sinai peninsula. God wants us to use safety strategies to protect ourselves. And to use them, no matter how hard it gets. The Living Free Workshop gives women strategies to protect themselves.
And these strategies work, but the key is commitment. If your husband is abusive. He’s going to try to exploit you in all kinds of ways. He may groom you. You don’t know what’s going to happen when you start actually protecting yourself. The Living Free Workshop lays out exactly what to do to protect yourself. In a way that he can’t get around it, it’s not up to him anymore. It has nothing to do with him. You can protect yourself no matter what he does.
The Emotional Journey Of Post-Abuse Recovery: Wandering In The Wilderness
Anne: The Israelites only had two options. Be slaughtered by Pharaoh or recognize that God had presented this safety strategy. He parted the Red Sea. And they could walk through.
So let’s talk about the other side. On the other side, they’re protected from Pharaoh’s army, because Pharaoh’s army is now destroyed. But they don’t know where they’re going, and they don’t know where they’re going to get food or water. I’m sure. Some of them regretted crossing the Red Sea, because now they couldn’t go back. And they missed that lush farmland, where they used to live. Many of them probably feel worse off now than before.
Pharaoh is not oppressing them, but their situation is difficult. The Living Free strategies require sacrifice. It will feel like you’re just living day to day, and you won’t know exactly what’s going to happen. So it’ll feel like wandering around. But if you commit to the strategies. They can help you be delivered from the emotional abuse by your husband.
The children of Israel wander around what is today Saudi Arabia, the Sinai peninsula, for 40 years. They get manna from heaven. And they have to live day by day, they can’t plan for the future. They don’t have a map. They’re led by a pillar of sand. So they went from this lush delta where they had everything they needed. To living in a tent in the middle of nowhere.
4th Stage Of How to Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband: Using Protective Strategies Day-by-Day
Anne: When I went to Jerusalem, we wandered in the wilderness. I looked out the window of the bus. There were actual dirt devils out there all over the place. I was, what? Some of them were bigger than others, but that pillar by day, that they followed to figure out where to go. I thought, I can totally see this happening. That is fascinating to me, and it was hot. I was there at the end of April, beginning of May, and it was like a hundred degrees. It was so, so hot.
The scriptures talk about the cloud that would come between the Israelites and the sun to shade them. There’s the pillar that guides them. They get manna from heaven day by day. They get water out of a rock. They’re committed to protecting themselves from Pharaoh.
As you use The Living Free Strategies, there will be miracles along the way. In my faith, we call them tender mercies. This is stage four of how to stop emotional abuse from husband. Using protective strategies day by day. Not knowing exactly where they’ll lead you.
Janet: This phase of how to stop emotional abuse from m y husband was like euphoria, the waters did not crash down on top of me. For the first time in however many decades, I can breathe. I have a safe home for my kids. It’s like living for the first time
Anne: I’ve heard women say, I can breathe again. Or at this stage, something like. I went outside and I could see color.
Janet: That I could taste food,.
Anne: Yeah.
Janet: Or sit there for hours, like, wait, what am I supposed to eat? I have the option of choosing what I’m going to eat. It’s like learning to live.
Finding Deliverance From Abuse
Anne: I think they’re amazed that they receive manna from heaven. They have what they need. Even though they might not have what they want, their lifestyle is maybe drastically different than before. They might not be eating the same foods they ate before, but they’re living on rice and beans. They’re not starving to death. For awhile, it feels good. Then it’s like, wait a minute. It would be nice to know what’s going to happen next.
Even though you’re mostly protected from abuse. There’s still quite a bit of uncertainty. When I was in Jerusalem. I also went to Jordan and literally wandered around in the same wilderness that it talks about in the Bible. Then we went to Mount Nebo. Mount Nebo is where the Israelites went right before they could go to the promised land. From Mount Nebo, they look out and see the promised land. Across the Dead Sea.
It was surreal to be in Jerusalem. It’s a lot, like the Salt Lake Valley where I’m from. I felt at home there, because it has the same geographical features as Utah. We actually have Utah Lake, and there’s a river between Utah Lake and the Great Salt Lake called the Jordan River. It’s the same thing in Jerusalem, the Red Sea, then the River Jordan flows into the Dead Sea. And the Dead Sea and the Great Salt Lake, both do not drain. So they’re both salt, and you can easily float in them.
5th Stage How To Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband: Seeing A Clear Path To A Peaceful Life
Anne: Then in Jordan, we went to Petra, which is like Zion National Park. In fact, we even have a mountain in Utah called Mount Nebo. And my mom was raised right under the shadow of Mount Nebo, in Utah. So I felt at home in Jerusalem and in Jordan. I feel like God tasked me to help deliver women from abuse.
While I was on Mount Nebo. I wanted to talk to Moses. because Moses never made it down from mountain Nebo. He actually died on Mount Nebo. He never made it to the promised land. So on Mount Nebo, I thought maybe I would never make it. Maybe I won’t be delivered, but I want to make sure everybody else is. So Moses, please teach me what you want to teach me while I’m here.
So I left the tour group. Trying to find a quiet place where I could pray. And Moses did not come and talk to me, unfortunately. But Mount Nebo is where I had the inspiration for stage five. You can see a clear path to the peaceful life that you want. And you know exactly how to get there. You know exactly how to stop the emotional abuse from him.
Janet, we were talking before. And you mentioned that was how you felt when you discovered strategic communication. You knew you needed to do it. Can you talk about seeing that clear path? And then of course. The difficulty of. walking the path.
Janet: Strategic communication was the hardest thing for me. The mixture of fears from my court experience, portrayed as gatekeeping and keeping the kids away from him. Just the fear of him and what he had put me through.
Seeking A Promised Future: From Mount Nebo To Wanting Justice
Janet: I was constantly worried about not explaining every detail to him, holding his hand through parenting, reminding him when early out was, even if it was his parenting time. Just constantly, he lived rent free in my brain. Getting to the part where you stop trying to explain. It wasn’t the fear, I just couldn’t give up wanting justice. Wanting to show him in his face what he is doing to the kids and have him own it.
Until I realized he’s even using that. That’s even a way of him trapping me on purpose. He was abusing the kids to get to me. There’s no justice. Just the pure anger for whatever the situation is, anger, fear. Will he take me back to court, or could I get in trouble somehow?
Being so worn out, the abuse will not stop, and just being tumbled like in the waves. Coming up for air, and then another wave comes, and then coming up for air, and another wave comes. the exhaustion of trying to communicate somehow. It all leads into a different trap.
Living Free made how to stoping the emotional abuse so simple. The lessons are very short. It’s like your best friend is holding your hand. Print out the workbook, you can watch it again. If you feel like you missed that concept, go back and watch it again. It makes it easy, and I wish I had it at the beginning of my divorce. Strategic communication was so good.
Lessons From The Living Free Workshop: How To Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband
Anne: That’s so exciting. The tools in Living Free are about protecting ourselves. But they’re not about asking victims to let go, move on, or stop giving away their power. Or all those triggery, I think stupid things people say to us. Of course, you would want justice. That anger will serve you well. Speaking of anger when I first discovered the strategies. Uh, I did not want to do them. It. did not seem like the best idea. Especially with strategic communication.
I was like, what? You want me to write it like that? That’s ridiculous. But I did it anyway. And the fruits were incredible. Not only did they improve my situation, but I felt better from the inside out. It wasn’t until I implemented the strategies that I figured out why. And I explained all of it well in the Living Free Workshop.
Janet: When I started doing strategic messaging, I saw the benefits. You’re not, in harm’s way. But my ex shifted to come at me from a different angle.
Anne: Yeah, isn’t that interesting? Cause of their exploitative character. They’re not happy when they can’t exploit you anymore. Cool thing is though, after Living Free, you can identify the traps.
Janet: Absolutely, and staying kind to ourselves as we trip and fall and get stuck in another trap and use it as a learning experience. I learned each time, and keep going. And keep going and keep going. That’s the gift. You’re right where you need to do what you need to do.
Strategies For Peace And Resilience: Finding Liberation
Anne: The reason I laughed is because it’s a journey to find out to stop emotional abuse. You know, there were times where I wasn’t sure. And then looking back, it was clear that the strategies led me exactly where I needed to be.
The cool thing about the Living Free Workshop is that it just teaches strategies. But it doesn’t dictate what you need to do. So for example, it doesn’t push you toward divorce or push you toward remaining married. They’re just safety strategies that women can apply in any situation.
Janet: Anne, thank you for having me on and talking about this. I love the map and just walking through the deliverance process like you did. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop is so beneficial for any woman on any stage. If she is still overwhelmed in the fog of abuse, Living Free has made it so simple. It makes it easy, and I wish I had it at the beginning of my marriage.
Anne: Yeah, don’t we all? Again, these strategies work in any stage. Our coaches can help you implement the strategies and apply them. Thank you so much, Janet, for talking with me today.
Janet: Thank you so much, Anne. Have a good night.
Surviving Narcissistic Abuse – Diane’s Story
May 28, 2024
As Diane shares her devastating story of surviving narcissistic abuse. She empowers women to become educated about abuse and trauma and start seeking safety.
He just became increasingly mean to me, to the point where I thought something was seriously wrong with me. I started going to a therapist because I thought, ‘What is wrong with me? I am nothing.’ Every day, he found something wrong with me. He would tell me how horrible I was, just horrible things.
Diane, victim of narcissistic abuse
Transcript: Surviving Narcissistic Abuse
Anne: I randomly met an old friend from college. I was so excited to see her. And I learned that she had been surviving narcissistic abuse, the same thing that all of us who listen to this podcast have been through. I’m going to call her Diane. I said, don’t tell me anything, come on the podcast. So I have not heard the whole story yet.
Welcome Diane.
Diane: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here with you.
Diane’s College Years & First Marriage
Anne: So in college, you had a one-year-old daughter. And you married, and then you divorced.
Diane: Yes, well, she’s 23 now. Yeah, right after I graduated from college, I had another child, and then we divorced.
Anne: And when you divorced, you didn’t know why the divorce was happening. And then, because you didn’t understand who he really was. You ended up remarrying him.
Diane: I remarried him because he returned to me, and then we were together for another 17 years. And in the last two years, I found everything. So for that entire 17 year period, he was a sex addict, and he had multiple things going on.
Surviving Narcissistic Abuse With First Divorce
Anne: Let’s talk about the first divorce. What did you think was the cause?
Diane: What’s so hard about all this is, I thought it was me. And for so many years, I thought it was me and needed to be better, and I wasn’t enough and was always trying. And now going through all the things, that’s why I saw you and I was like, I’m so happy. I wish I had found your podcasts and your website a year ago, because it’s been this journey of hardship for a long time just surviving narcissistic husband.
But that first time he actually had an affair, but I didn’t know that, so I just thought it was me. And so then when he came back to me, I was like, “Oh I’m changed, I’m better”. I’m good.
https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco
Anne: So he says I’m leaving you. I’m just not happy in this marriage. You’re not good enough, and he takes off. Meanwhile, he lies to you, manipulates you and abuses you. Because the things he’s telling you aren’t true. And he’s putting you down on purpose to hide his own stuff.
You don’t know any of this. Two years after the divorce, he returns and says I messed up. You are amazing.
Remarriage & Continued Struggles Surviving Narcissistic Abuse
Diane: And honestly, now I look at it and it was like love bombing. Totally like I love you, you’re the best thing that ever happened to me. I want to be a good dad to our kids. And so of course I was like, yes, I want to save my family. I want him to be the dad, he can be in my kids lives.
So I thought, Oh yes, he’s changed. I’ve changed. We’ve grown up a little bit. So then we got back together, and we had two more kids. Throughout this time, it was always that word line of, I need to be better. If I was thinner, if I’m cleaner, then he’ll be happy. And so I look at it now, and I’m like, what was wrong with me?
But I was in this cycle of trying to make him happy, while giving more and more. And taking less and less from him.
Anne: So not knowing the details of your story. There’s the abuse that everybody recognizes as abuse, physical violence. And then there’s the abuse hidden: the narcissistic abuse, lying. Was it narcissistic abuse, physical violence? What types of abuse were showing up?
Surviving Narcissistic Abuse & Realizing The Truth
Diane: He was never physically abusive to me. But he would get in my face and make me feel like, why is the house so messy? Belittle me in front of our kids, and I look at it now, and I’m like, how did I not know? It’s crazy to me.
Anne: Well, you didn’t know because he was lying to you and hiding everything. You were resisting abuse the entire time. Doing everything you could to try and resolve it. Surviving narcissistic abuse is no small feat. You’re crazy smart.
Diane: Well, I would think so, right? I have two master’s degrees. I should be smart enough to see this, but you don’t. And that’s one thing I really, whenever I talk to people, I’m like, you don’t realize because they’re master manipulators.
He makes the world fit his needs. And I was totally okay with that. I just went along with it.
The Second Divorce
Diane: My ex is military, we had moved to a new duty station. And, I thought, oh good, this is our starting over, we’re gonna renew, we’re gonna be a better family.
And at that point he started dating somebody else. So he just became increasingly mean to me to the point where I thought something was seriously wrong with me. I started going to a therapist at that point, because I’m like what is wrong with me? I am nothing, and every day he found something wrong with me.
He would tell me how horrible I was, just horrible things. And it wasn’t until my daughter, who the daughter we talked about, she looked at me and she said, “Mom, is Dad having an affair?” Then I started looking and then that’s when I found out.
When I first found out, he told me it was an emotional affair because I looked at the text messages and I found text messages. So he told me there was nothing physical. So then I thought, okay, well, I’m going to be better. I’m going to love him better.
And then about a month later, I found he had been using a different app. There was a text from the girl who said, “I haven’t woken up next to you. I can’t wait till we do it again.”
Narcissism & Trauma
Anne: How did you find out about the additional abuse and betrayal from the whole 17 years? You are not alone in finding out you’ve been betrayed. Did it just start coming out, or was it something that you started piecing together, that you had been surviving narcissistic abuse?
Diane: Both actually. I just became super detective, like looking through emails, looking through everything. And I started to see this pattern of things where he’s been on these sites. But I had never believed that was happening, I guess. And then I found that he’d been on dating sites. He’s military. So every time he was away from me, he was dating, he was sleeping with other people.
So I confronted him. And then the world fell apart. Because he was going to be better, he was going to love me, blah, blah, blah. I fell apart for a while. At one point, he was for lack of a better term, verbal diarrhea, everything. I still think there’s probably stuff I don’t know, which I’m good not knowing. But definitely from their first divorce until this divorce, he had been with multiple partners, multiple people. Doing whatever he wanted to do.
When you said “I fell apart.” What did you mean by that? I’ll tell you what I did. I sat on the couch. And I ate buckets of popcorn. I watched a ton of Netflix. I watched every episode of every season of the good wife. Which, by the way, is the perfect show to watch when you’re going through this. Also, I gained weight. What did your falling apart look like?
The Impact Of Trauma
Diane: Actually, I went the other way. I did not eat for probably four months. Like I lost 30 pounds. I again internalized that it was me. That abuse had been such a cycle. I’m not enough, so I’ll be better. I’ll show him how much better I am. I’ll show him that I’m better than anybody else, he would choose kind of thing. On top of all this.
So there’s one extra component there. I found out my mom had a brain tumor three days after I found out the full affair he’d been having this time. My whole world exploded. I could not sleep. And couldn’t eat. I would just be like, Oh, I need to do this better. And I need to do that better. I did not read a book for like six months. And for me, that was crazy. You know, I’d get two sentences and it’s a cycle again. And so, it was hard.
Anne: That’s not crazy. There is this myth that marriage is supposed to be hard, and I just don’t think that true. That’s totally normal. Diane and I graduated in English teaching. We’re both readers and writers, and the same thing happened to me. I could not read for a long time. I’d try, but I just couldn’t do it. I was like, if anyone is like me. They’re not going to be able to read articles I write when they are surviving narcissistic abuse. But they can listen. So that’s why I started a podcast.
Diane: You’re so brilliant. That was exactly what is necessary.
Anne: So yeah, you’re losing weight, you can’t read. What happened with your mom?
Surviving Narcissistic Abuse After Mom Died
Diane: So my mom actually passed away. So this all came out March 3rd, and my mom died May 2nd. It was just trauma on trauma on trauma. This is my least favorite story to tell. I have to tell you. So my ex was careful. He didn’t want anyone to know about what he’d been doing. One of the reasons is he’s military, but he was also very manipulative.
If you go through narcissistic betrayals, he obviously wanted everyone to believe how good he was, who he was. So he came to my mom’s funeral and acted all the part, loving and everything else. And then literally we buried my mom. It had been two hours. He came to my house. And asked if we could discuss the terms of our divorce.
Okay. In front of my children, two hours after I buried my mom. That one was the icing on the cake. I was like, no. As much as I am hurt, this is my boundary. You need to leave.
Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. That is awful. All of that is awful. Time and time again, women come on the podcast and share their stories. They’re like nightmares, horrifying, like the jaws of hell were gaping after you. And it feels like there is just no way to help wives or children of narcissists.
Diane: So, so much. That phrase came into my mind many times.
Anne: Mine too. I just felt like hell was trying to swallow me whole. And I was just like holding on by like a piece of dental floss.
Diane: So true. Any amount of just staying alive every single day, just making it through.
Anne: I’m so sorry about your mom. I’m so sorry.
Be Patient With Yourself
Diane: I’ve said many times, the divorce was fine. Just losing my mom was so difficult at this time. If you lose your spouse, you know, you lose a marriage. Usually you have your mom to go to, or vice versa. You lose your mom. Usually you have somebody to depend on. And I kind of felt like everything was gone all in one.
I’ve learned so much in this year. I tell people all the time, and people come to me and they’re like, everybody has a story. We all have these traumas, and I just say be patient with yourself. How many times I’m like, I just want to feel better. I want to be better today. Just be patient with yourself and be kind to yourself, because it’s going to take a while.
Anne: Yes, of course, like take as much time as you need. We all need a rest, right?
Realizations & Clarity
Anne: When did you start realizing it wasn’t you? When did you start thinking? Wait a minute. He’s been an abuser the entire time.
Diane: I think when I really did is when my mom was sick. So my mom, she had the brain tumor, but what happened is called carcino motor meningitis.
She had cancerous meningitis. So she was fine on April 1st and she passed away May 2nd. So it was like four weeks really fast. And so I had come back home. I was trying to help. It was still about him. I’m going through this trauma and all of this, and he was still trying to protect his image. And at that point I was like, wait a second.
Yeah, this isn’t me, you know, and it wasn’t about my kids losing their grandma. He had to protect himself from anybody thinking badly of him. And so that was my first indication, but it took me a long time to really just go, wait, I have worth. I’m okay with who I am.
And he’s been trying to destroy me for so long, but I’m not going to lie. Even like some days I just still feel like. Wait, what’s wrong with me? And I’m like, wait, no, that’s manipulation. I need to stop and be okay. I’m okay.
Anne: Yeah, how would you describe your clarity now after a year’s gone by?
Diane: My ex is with his girlfriend that he left me for And I think about it.
Manipulations Continue
Diane: I’m like, I just want to grab her and be like listen, this is gonna happen. This is what he’s doing, he’s love bombing you. He’s gaslighting you. He’s gonna use you till there’s nothing left. And then I have to step back and be like, that’s my clarity. I can see that, but there’s no way she could see that.
And she would just say, Oh, she’s some crazy ex wife trying to form me here. But I can see that for me and I can see it for my kids. And that’s what’s so hard, because he still does it to my kids. He manipulates them. And so I just have to step back and be like, they’ll have to realize it for themselves. That they are experiencing narcissistic abuse.
But it still hurts. It still hurts. Like I can see it, it is clear. But there are still those elements that sometimes it still affects me and bugs me. But I’m happy that I am where I am now
Effects On Children
Anne: So your oldest daughter, she was the one that tipped you off and said maybe dad’s having an affair. How does she feel about it?
Diane: We actually just moved out of state. She is also trying to escape the cycle, because she’s finally realized. But the reason she saw it is because she saw how changed he was. Because she’d grown up with this dad who was so genuinely interested in her, and then suddenly, she didn’t mean anything to him either.
She wasn’t enough. And so he started to change on her. And so she wondered why, and now she’s not part of the supply because she doesn’t believe any of his lies anymore. So he is just mean to her. And so she wanted to escape where we were. That’s why she moved out of state. Cause she wants to be away. It’s totally affected her, because she questions her worth, but she knows she’s good, but she still loves her dad.
And that’s what’s so hard is he’s still my children’s father and they want a dad. I mean, that’s the weird thing we’re working through right now too.
Anne: What the kids mean to him is they make him look good. They make him look good at church. When he goes to the grocery store, everybody smiles and says, Oh, you must be such a good dad. When the kids don’t mean anything outside of himself, and they are surviving narcissistic abuse too.
The Aftermath & Healing
Diane: Exactly, that’s exactly right. My older kids can see that. So my eldest is 23 and then my next daughter is 20. And then I have a son who’s 16 and a daughter who’s 12. My 12 year old is still in it, but my older kids can see that. They kind of accepted that fate.
So hard, I needed somebody who had been there. And that’s why I was like, I wish I had your site because I would have loved it. One thing that I tell people all the time is when you have trauma, it’s like breaking the glass. Those little pieces of glass go into every other memory. You’ll see a Coke can, and suddenly you have this trauma memory.
So, understanding that the trauma we face is like PTSD. There are parts of us so broken. It’s not just like fixing this one little memory. There are so many memories. There are so many pieces of glass embedded somewhere else. You have to go through this.
Anne: Yeah, that’s a really good example about the glass and how traumatized we feel. And I also wish that you would’ve found Betrayal Trauma Recovery earlier. Cause then maybe we would have connected sooner. But at least we have each other now.
The Importance Of Support Systems While Surviving Narcissistic Abuse
Anne: Are you still teaching?
Diane: I am teaching high school English, and then I actually did my MBA, so I also teach marketing.
Anne: So of our graduating class, most of us got our masters. You got your MBA, and I think you also have your masters in education. I have an M.Ed., and now I’m obviously podcasting.
Another one of our friends from college got her master’s, and now she’s a principal. The women in our class have done some amazing things. Our class was full of such strong women who’ve been such good examples to me. And you. Like I haven’t seen you for years, but I still feel like we connect and have the support system of women who care about me. It’s heartwarming.
Diane: Yes, I agree. I felt the same way when I saw you. I was like, oh my heck, it was like no time had passed. I wasn’t crazy. I’m not the crazy one. I’m not the one who caused this. And you’ll understand. You’ve always impressed me with everything. Even when we were in school, you were such a go getter and so amazing and talented.
And so, when I saw you, I’m like, this is your mission. You see such a need here, because there is, there’s so many of us just struggling. For the last year, I’ve searched for help in so many ways, and that you’ve assembled this. Is amazing to me, because we need it.
Reflections On College
Anne: Yeah, can you imagine back in college, if I was like, I’m going to create a lesson plan about, infidelity and abuse. Rather than Anne Frank.
Diane: I know. Multicultural Studies. Yes.
Anne: Thinking about that. If you could go back in time and you saw us at the library studying. And you could say anything to us. What would you say.
Diane: I think the biggest thing would be to trust your instincts. Because lots of times I felt like something was off and I felt like it wasn’t me, but then I would trust his words. I would trust the way he treated me. I believed these lies, and I would believe that something was wrong with me. So I would say, trust yourself and you are so unique and wonderful.
And honestly, you are worth everything. And so don’t let anyone ever take that away from you. Just trust yourself and know that you are powerful. Obviously, we didn’t think it was abuse, but have boundaries. Those are my two big things. Trust your instincts and have boundaries.
The Empowerment & Strength Of Living through Narcissistic Abuse
Anne: I love that you’re still teaching. and you can teach your students about what a mutual relationship is about. Consent, about truth, about misogyny. Of course I’m teaching in a different way now through podcasting. But education is so important so that every victim can be educated about narcissistic abuse, emotional abuse, and learn to set those boundaries. It’s not our fault that no one taught us.
Both of us were resisting abuse the entire time. You were resisting it because you thought it was you, and you did everything you could to stop it. That is resisting abuse. So you’re incredible, strong, and powerful. This is what I talk about in The Living Free Workshop.
Diane: I love that, exactly right. Your example of doing this is so powerful too, because it makes me go, I can do this. And so just the next person that we can talk to, that we can help, it just makes us that much stronger.
Anne: You’re awesome. Diane, I admired you back then. You were going through college with a young daughter and you were brave and incredible. And here we are 20 years later. So when you get back in town, let’s go have lunch.
Diane: I would love that. Thank you so much, my friend. Seriously, you’re amazing. And I’m so grateful for your work and your friendship. You’re amazing.
Listen To The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast
Anne: Most likely along your journey to healing. You connected with friends old and new who have been through this. So thinking about Diane and how she wished she could have found Betrayal Trauma Recovery sooner. If you haven’t already, will you please let them know about the BTR podcast? And about our website, BTR.ORG.
I love my job, educating women about narcissistic abuse and emotional abuse, and how to get to emotional safety. So I appreciate every one of you who has shared our podcast episodes on social media or tagged us. It would have been cool if Diane had found it before we met. And she was like, wait, that’s a friend from college, that would have been cool.
Healing From Emotional Abuse Quickly Depends on These 3 Things
May 21, 2024
Three factors determine how long does it take to heal from emotional abuse. If your husband betrayed you, here are the strategies to speed up the healing process so you can feel peace again.
1. Has His Emotional Abuse Stopped?
The first factor that affects how long it will take to heal from emotional abuse is to ensure that the emotional abuse has stopped. Emotional abuse includes various behaviors that come out of his exploitative privilege. If he thinks his “needs” and “rights” are more important than yours, chances are he’s emotionally abusive.
Is he currently doing any of the following?
Lying
Blaming you for things that aren’t your fault
Stonewalling
Criticizing
Gaslighting
Using pornography / infidelity
If the emotional abuse is currently happening, whether you’re still married, separated, or divorced, if his emotional abuse hasn’t stopped or you haven’t put enough distance between you and his abuse, your healing from it can’t begin.
2. Have You Learned How to Separate Yourself From His Emotional Abuse?
Healing from emotional abuse takes as long as you learn how to separate yourself from the abuse. If you have the right information, healing time can be significantly reduced.
The good news is, you’re strong and capable. The only thing holding you back has been having the correct framework for what’s been happening to you. It’s not your fault. No one teaches the public how to separate from emotional abuse.
The other good news is, you’ve come to the right place. Betrayal Trauma Recovery specializes in teaching women how to recognize emotional abuse and exactly what to do if you’re experiencing it.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop teaches victims of abuse exactly what’s going on and exactly what to do to make her way to emotional safety. It also includes 13 incredibly healing meditations.
3. Do You Have the Appropriate Support to Heal from His Emotional Abuse?
Healing from his emotional abuse takes time, but the duration of the healing process can be significantly reduced when you have appropriate support.
Appropriate support comes from women who have experienced their husband’s emotional abuse and developed emotional safety. It’s validating and empowering.
You’ll heal faster if the support doesn’t blame you for any abuse or suggests you somehow caused it or enabled it.
Betrayal Trauma Support Group, a daily support for women who want to heal from emotional abuse, is the safest place to both learn about and heal from emotional abuse.
On the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, emotional abuse expert Anne Blythe shared her insights on how she developed specific strategies to heal from emotional abuse as quickly as possible.
How to Recover from Emotional Abuse: The Evolution of My Workshop
Let me give you some background about the origins of my workshop.
I had been divorced, and he was still emotionally and psychologically abusive, like post-divorce for eight years. My life was very difficult. Every day.
I lost a big court case to him. He got more custody. I mean, things were just hard. He was counter parenting. He was cancelling my kids’ medical appointments.
Anne: Many of you have listened to the podcast for a long time, you’ll know my ex wasn’t paying half of what he was supposed to pay from the divorce decree. He justified it through constantly undermining me and our children.
Emotional Abuse Post-Divorce
So those of you who are married, when we were married, he was difficult the whole time, but I didn’t realize it. I thought back then that boundaries meant telling him clearly how upset I was with his behavior. Also, maybe giving him an hour long lecture, which didn’t help me be safer.
He never changed his behavior. We’d go to a lot of therapy. We’d do a lot of addiction recovery stuff, so that didn’t help. As I started BTR, I started thinking, how do we really get to safety? What is the path?
Anytime any woman experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, if her husband uses exploitative material or if he’s having affairs. If you try to go the therapy route or the addiction recovery route.
Why This Workshop Helps Heal Emotional Abuse
Over the years, dealing with thousands of women who come to BTR, and just my experience helping people, that doesn’t tend to get us to safety.
In fact, we end up being more and more unsafe. Especially because we’ve been vulnerable with someone who’s just weaponizing our emotions against us. As I’ve been the executive director at BTR for eight years, I’ve been podcasting forever.
I thought, we need clear action steps.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop has examples of men who will have the same facial expressions that your husband is giving you. So you can actually see the concepts and process them a little better.
I worked with women over two years personally writing their messages, helping them so that we could see does this work? Yes, it does. I know it works. Any effort we take to get to safety is awesome.
We could resist it in ways that are effective. We can resist it in ways that aren’t effective, but resistance in and of itself is great.
Testing and Proving How To Heal Emotional Abuse
As we try to think, how can I resist abuse more effectively? That’s where strategies come into play.
In the upcoming months, I’m going to have the women I helped write their messages on the podcast, so that you can listen to their stories and the experiences they had. It was an incredible time to be with them on their journey to safety.
The messages they received were traumatizing. I sort of got secondary trauma from being like, wow, how are we going to get you to safety? So it was through their help that we developed this, and so many women are so brave to experiment to try new things.
Effective Resistance Against Emotional Abuse
They tried everything. The therapist had told them they had tried everything that clergy had told them, and there wasn’t anything else to try. This is that. It’s totally different than anything else, because it’s strategic.
I, along with my kids, achieved complete liberation from my ex outside of court, proving it works better than anything else. The other issue is that whenever any woman starts to make her way to safety, the abuser will not like it.
https://youtu.be/VZx2WaCVvQg
No matter what type of strategy you use to resist abuse, the abuse will escalate slightly. The only way it doesn’t escalate is if you’re not actually getting to safety. If he feels like, oh, this is the same thing, I’m still able to exploit her, then it’s not going to escalate that much because you’re not actually getting safe.
He’s still actually just exploiting you. So for many women who think he’s not so bad, he’s good, and then they keep having things happen over and over, and then we start using the Betrayal Trauam Recovery Workshop strategies.
Abuser’s Reaction When You Start Healing From Emotional Abuse
They see a bit of escalation, like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I actually can’t exploit her anymore. The women feel better because they’re actually getting to safety.
It is a delicate dance at that point to continue to use those safety strategies through that phase until he finally is like, oh, I’m never going to exploit her again. These strategies are effective while you’re in a marriage.
They are effective after divorce. They are effective if you are separated, and the good news is they’re all in line with just general good person principles. So they’re kind, I want to put kind in quotes. They don’t involve violence.
They don’t involve behavior that society would frown upon. It’s all upstanding behavior. If you have in writing or if they recorded it or somehow documented it, you would look great in court.
Applying the Strategies Across Different Situations
So that’s also really cool. I so appreciate your patience. So many of you have been waiting for this. I just wanted to get it right and so that’s why it took so long. It matters to me that they are tested, that they are proven.
It mattered to me that they would actually work. I know the principles are correct and true principles. My job is to educate you in a way that makes sense. And then there’s the second part, which is application.
The application always gets tricky, because it might be different for everyone in their own situation. Application with any principle is an experiment. As you enroll in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, you’ll have a base understanding of these safety strategies, keep in mind that the way you apply it will make a difference.
If you’re having trouble applying it in a way that’s working, then please schedule a session with one of our coaches.
Educating and Applying Workshop Principles
Coach Jen is specifically trained to help women with messages, and then any of the coaches can help with the workshop strategies and in BTR.ORG Individual Sessions.
If you have enrolled in the workshop and would like to come on the podcast to share your experience, or if you enroll and have questions, you want to talk to me about it.
I would love to talk to you about it on the podcast, so that we can keep an open discussion about how to apply it and learn as a group as you guys start applying this stuff.
So please email my assistant at podcast@btr.org if you’d like to talk about it on air with other people, and I can answer your questions. We can talk about your specific situation, enroll, and then email her at a podcast at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and then we can talk on air, and that will help everybody.
Anne’s Journey from Emotional Abuse Crisis to Expertise
You can go to btr.org/workshop to get more information, and I cannot wait for you guys to enroll. You’ll love it. I also want to talk about social media. When I started BTR, I was crying in my basement. I just felt so much pain, and I was so scared and worried.
In the process of the last eight years, I’ve become an expert on emotional abuse through reading and studying, but also experimenting and applying the principles to my own life, delivering myself and my kids from the abuse.
It’s been so fun to help the other women with their messages. I decided, okay, I’m going to be the one that does the social media videos and start posting. It’s hard. I don’t want to post about what I ate for breakfast.
The Mission to Reach Women Who Need Help Healing From Emotional Abuse
That just doesn’t interest me. I don’t want to share stuff I’m doing personally in my life, apparently besides the most personal parts, haha.
This is serious stuff, I want to reach women who need help. That’s what I’ve always wanted to do for eight years.
It is my personal mission to ensure that every woman who cannot figure out what’s going on, who is praying, who is concerned, who is thinking, what therapist do I go to or what program can I get for my husband.
How can I heal my marriage, so they get correct information about what’s actually going on? My heart is heavy. Thinking about all the incorrect information floating around about emotional and psychological abuse. Especially coercion, especially in the addiction recovery community and couple therapy community, and how they approach this in a way that they just do not recognize the abuse.
Challenges in Addressing Emotional Abuse
(10:52): So I’m on social media doing these videos. If you’re on social media and wouldn’t mind following and sharing the stuff, I would appreciate it. If not, that makes sense. Social media stresses me out.
It’s a little scary, but it has been an awesome opportunity to interact with women all over the world and hear their stories. It’s very humbling to know that there are so many women who need help. I’m grateful that you found BTR.
I’m grateful when any woman shares the message of truth about abuse, about how abusive exploitative materials use in a marriage is, so that we collectively reduce the suffering of women throughout the world.
I would love to save marriages, and make families whole. I used to refer to some men’s programs for abusers. In seeing the aftermath, they weren’t solving that root cause of his abuse, and in so many cases, the men were weaponizing the stuff they learned in these programs.
Anne’s Reflection on How Men’s Programs Don’t Stop The Emotional Abuse
(12:00): You’ll see that if a man wants to change, this is what he’ll do, and you can see it in the workshop clearly. He will of his own free take action after eight years of witnessing women and talking to them about how it went in this men’s program?
How did it go in this type of therapy? How did it go? Usually at first, they think it’s great. Usually at first they’re like, oh, it worked well. And then I talked to him a year later, and they’re like, oh, my word. I didn’t know he was still lying to me.
The therapist said I could trust him and I couldn’t, or in some cases he did a polygraph and passed the polygraph, but they still felt uncomfortable. Then later found out that he lied well because he passed the polygraph, but he was still lying. Women’s emotional and psychological safety is my absolute top priority.
Disillusionment with Men’s Recovery Programs
(12:56): I just don’t recommend men’s programs anymore. It’s just not something that I think a victim of abuse should ever even consider. Rather than think about how I can help my husband be a better person, I need to focus on their emotional, psychological, and sexual safety.
Hopefully, due to her safety, she can observe from a safe distance, and he will realize as he wants to change.
That’s the only route, I wish there was another one. I tried to figure it out for a few years, I did., I thought, can a program do this? I tested it out. It didn’t, and I feel bad about that, but probably all of you were curious too, right?
Marriage vs. Pre-Marriage Counseling Discrepancies
(13:52): All of us were. If I could go back in time, I was hoping so much for a program to save my family, and now I don’t think that ever would’ve existed. The hope is, I hope he figures it out, because when it comes to these behaviors, like, don’t lie to your wife, is pretty low bar.
It drives me crazy when people are like, oh, well, you’ve just set the bar too high. All men use exploitative material, and if you want to be in a marriage, then you have to deal with abuse. I don’t think that’s the case. I don’t think all men are abusive.
It’s not too high of a bar to expect your husband doesn’t lie to your face. I don’t think it’s too high of a bar that you expect your husband genuinely cares about you, and that he’s not just manipulating you to exploit you.
Programs for Emotional Abusers Don’t Work
I mean, that’s the lowest bar to think that these men haven’t heard it somewhere before, like church or therapy or their work harassment training. Really, do we think these men are that ignorant, and if they are, you see the concern there?
I’ve been thinking a lot about how, at least in my faith, they would be like, okay, if he doesn’t treat you well, if he lies to you, if he uses, do not date him anymore. Break up. But if you are in a marriage, then they don’t give the same advice.
They’re like, well, he’s a good guy and he’s trying to get help, or he’s going to get better. I’m wondering why the difference in counsel between pre-marriage and after marriage is mind boggling to me.
Before you’re married, does this guy know that lying is wrong? They’d be like, well, if he doesn’t know it’s wrong, or if he knows it’s wrong and does it anyway, you should not date him anymore.
Dealing with Abusive Behavior Without External Programs
But after marriage, oh, he didn’t learn that anywhere. No one’s ever told him that lying is bad, so he needs to go to a program that’s just not true. He knows, and he’s choosing to do it to exploit you.
These issues are complex. They are long-term. I feel like the strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop accurately describe what’s happening, and will give you actual action steps that work that don’t put you in danger, and that also leave space for him to change.
They leave space to observe, to see if he wants this? Is this the kind of lifestyle he wants? That was one of the things that was, I think, the hardest for me was when I was observing from a distance. I mean, at first I thought somebody needed to tell him he didn’t know.
A Woman’s Safety From Emotional Abuse as the Central Focus
After a while, I thought, of course he knows, because he would act so awesome sometimes, so he knows what to do. He just doesn’t want to lose his exploitative privilege. It was heartbreaking to watch him continue to make those choices, as I was waiting for him to make different choices, which he didn’t make.
I ended up divorced and then being abused for eight years after. I have heard stories of people who use these strategies, and then he realizes, which is cool. Neither of those scenarios involves trying to get him in a program or trying to help him change.
Center on a woman who is getting to safety from emotional abuse, emotional, and psychological safety, so those workshops give those action steps. Very clear step.
I also wrote the meditations in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop because there were so many times where I was so stressed out. I was crying and couldn’t stop, or feel anything. The meditations help women feel peace and loved immediately when they need comfort, and they can’t get comfort any other way.
Relief through Meditations
Anyway, sorry. Just a lot of information today, but I’ve had so much going on. I’ve been so busy for three or four years developing these things, testing them, trying them out with women, and I’m actually tired.
I’m really tired. If you’ve been listening for a while and are so inclined, I would appreciate your prayers. Especially as I embark on new things like social media, and I’m almost done with my book. It’s been a hard road, and I’m tired, and as much as I want to rest this second.
I hear a woman in need, or I get a message on social media, or someone emails, or I find out that someone I know in real life is going through emotional abuse. Then my exhaustion sort of gets set aside, and I think, how can I not help?
Appreciation for Support For Healing from Emotional Abuse
There’s no way. There’s no way I could see a woman in pain and need who needs these strategies and not be there. Because I can’t help everybody personally, I developed the workshops, and that’s also why we have coaches here.
They’re so well trained, they’re incredible. I cannot be everywhere at once. I wish I could be though. I’m just of course exhausted. I think you’re probably exhausted too.
Emotional abuse has a way of doing that. As much as it’s very energizing to help emotional abuse victims, it’s also exhausting to deal with abuse all the time, so thank you so much for your prayers.
Thank you so much for your well wishes and your support. It has meant so much to me over the years. I am here, working hard. I will continue to work hard.
Request for Prayers and Continuing the Mission
I’m so glad to finally have the energy, I don’t know. I wouldn’t be here, and I wouldn’t have learned these things, and I wouldn’t have had the time or ability to learn these strategies and then also experiment with them with women.
Had you not supported BTR by listening, so thank you. One of the main ways to help get the word out is by following the podcast, just click follow on Spotify or Apple Podcast.
That helps share social media. If you feel like I do and don’t want any other woman to suffer, those are good ways to help. I love your comments.
It’s not often that I fish for validation, I guess, but I could use your prayers right now. I’ve been in tough spots. It’s you, the listeners, the BTR community who have got me through it.
Gratitude for Listeners Who Are Likely Experiencing Emotional Abuse Themselves
(20:53): You tell me or the coaches. It was BTR that helped me get through this hard time. You helped me get through the hard time of being on the front lines every day, interacting with women all over the world who are going through this.
It’s such an honor to be on these front lines and hear your stories, to sit with you in the pain. It is an honor to know you. It is an honor that you listen, and I’m so grateful that we work together to make this world a better place. Thank you so much.
3 Hidden Ways Narcissists Groom Victims in Marriage
May 14, 2024
Have you noticed that your husband now criticizes the very traits he once loved? Narcissists groom victims by presenting themselves as safe, loving, and trustworthy at first, to gain trust and lower a woman’s defenses before causing harm.
When women understand three common ways narcissists groom victims, they can begin to see what’s really happening. Grooming often works quietly. Emotional abusers use a cycle of praise, pity, and confusion to keep women questioning themselves instead of questioning his behavior. This is why grooming feels good at first, because the intent stays hidden until the damage is already underway.
To know if it’s grooming, you’ll also need to know if he’s using any one of these 19 different emotional abuse tactics. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.
1. Narcissists Groom Victims With Compliments He’ll Later Use To Attack You
Narcissists groom victims with compliments that feel personal and sincere. Early on, they pay close attention to what matters to you, what you feel good about, and what you’re insecure about. Later, they use those same things to criticize, confuse, or control you.
This is why many women don’t see red flags before a relationship or marriage begins. At first, it feels like he truly sees you and appreciates who you are. Over time, you realize that what felt like love and admiration was actually preparation.
2.Narcissists Groom With DARVO
DARVO means Deny, Attack, and then Reverse the Victim and Offender roll. This is when someone who is truly hurting you claims that you are hurting them.
3. Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories
Playing the victim is a common tactic narcissists groom victims with. The truth is that many, many people have had traumatic childhoods and it’s not a reason to abuse anyone. In fact, many people with traumatic childhoods are the healthiest people you’ll ever meet.
Abuse is a choice. When a narcissist says he’s lying (or any other abusive behavior) because of his traumatic childhood, he’s just trying to groom you into thinking he has a good reason or excuse. He’s also trying to make you feel sorry for him. He’s NOT choosing to be a healthy person. If he was, he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. To hear Chelsea’s entire story, read on or listen to the full podcast episode above.
Full Transcript: 3 Ways Narcissists Groom Victims
Anne: Today, I’m joined by a member of our community. We’re going to call her Chelsea.
Chelsea shares how her husband was grooming her in ways she couldn’t see at the time, and how his true character revealed itself gradually. It wasn’t obvious cruelty at first. He was charming, praised her, and even showed empathy.
As Chelsea shared her story, I noticed three familiar ways narcissists groom victims in the things her husband did repeatedly to confuse her. I want to briefly name these so you can listen for them as the conversation unfolds.
First, early compliments that later became weapons. Traits he admired at the beginning were eventually used to criticize. Second, DARVO—deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender. When confronted about harm, he claimed he was the one being hurt. And third, sob stories designed to pull empathy, which later became excuses for harmful behavior.
So listen for these as Chelsea shares her story. Welcome, Chelsea.
Chelsea: Hi. I’m so glad to be here. Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped me so much.
Anne: When you first met your husband, or maybe when you first got married did you recognize his behaviors as abuse?
Chelsea: No, I definitely didn’t. I guess everything’s hindsight 20/20, but at the time I was a single mom of two kids myself, so I don’t know if it was just insecurities. It happened slowly, and it circled around insecurities I had so I didn’t really notice it at first.
Anne: When did you start recognizing like something’s not quite right?
1. Narcissists Groom By Giving Compliments They Will Later Attack You With
Chelsea: I would say it was like, a few months into dating. I guess the biggest thing for me was all the things he originally complimented me about or liked about me, he made comments about that in a derogatory kind of way. So, I guess that’s why they recognize it as abuse. I remember being emotionally distressed but not really understanding why.
Anne: So, he kind of changed his tune? So, I’m just using this as an example. Maybe he said you’re so beautiful, I’m so attracted to you, and then later maybe he was like you’re not attractive to me.
Chelsea: Yeah, a couple of examples early on where I was single and I have a really good co-parenting relationship with my ex-husband. I had the perfect situation for me, I had my kids during the week and on the weekends.
I was 25 years old back then; this was five years ago, and I kind had the best of both worlds. I’m a very social butterfly, life of the party kind of person and I love to wear red lipstick. That’s just a small example because he did end up using that against me a lot. It was like one of those weird off to the side things, but stuff like that.
He complimented me that I am so fun, and he likes how I do my makeup and stuff like that. And then even like how I am a good mom. Then fast forward a few months, it all slowly started going downhill.
He started saying things like you have children at home, why are you acting like this? And why do you wear makeup like that? That’s really how the very beginning of it started.
Recognizing The Abuse
Anne: This is the first way narcissists groom victims, by giving us compliments. And we’re so grateful to have someone see us. Notice us appreciate us. Then later they use those same things that they once complemented us about against us. So later they weaponize what they learn about us, and then they use the thing that they complimented us about against us later. These narcissist husbands don’t want us to leave.
Which is such a betrayal. So many victims don’t see any red flags before they get into a relationship or marriage, because the grooming is so specific to us. They’re very good at manipulating us to feel like they truly see and appreciate us in the beginning.
Then they purposefully compliment us, then later weaponize it. So at the time, were you thinking, okay, once we’re married, then he’ll go back to realizing how great I am.
Chelsea: Yes and no. I got getting pregnant about a little less than a year of dating, and that was a whole fiasco. Right before I getting pregnant, I tried to cut it off. It took me years to realize it was abuse. So that definitely never really came into my mind, but it was so emotionally tumultuous.
I don’t know if that is a good word to use. I was like I can’t do this anymore. The way he would degrade me or like the way fights would go. I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. And then that cycle of abuse was already in play. That wasn’t really any different than after we were married, but I tried to break up with him.
Narcissists Groom Victims Off & On To Keep Them Hooked
I actually moved away, a couple hours away, for a job. This will help me cut it off because it’s really hard to cut things off with an abuser.
To me that was like my way; you know, emotionally I was having a hard time cutting it off because he would always come back around. I thought if we’re physically not in the same place this should be good.
Well, he came to visit me on the weekends. It would always be this big whole thing. Narcissists groom victims using the cycle of abuse, and that definitely was happening still. Then I ended up finding out I was pregnant.
https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco
In hindsight, I tell the story sometimes now; I have multiple kids and this instance was like the only time I remember just like falling and sobbing on the floor. At the time, I just had started this new job, I was trying to start this new life.
I think it was more of that subconscious knowing that what was really happening underneath all of it was the abuse I was going through. How that was just going to make it so much worse, and it did.
Anne: So, you were married because you were pregnant, essentially?
Chelsea: Basically, yeah. Like he ended up begging for me back and like wanting to make it work and of course, add a pregnancy in there and you’re already vulnerable. Like in these cycles, at least that’s how it was for me, these cycles come around and add a pregnancy in there and it’s like, I really want this to work now.
Horror Honeymoon With an Abuser
I already have two other kids. I don’t want to have another kid and be a single mom. At that point, I still really wanted to be with him, but I was like fighting that war with myself. I just wanted to believe him when he said he wanted to make it work. So yeah, we ended up getting married, and even our wedding night was just horrible.
Anne: A lot of people have horror honeymoon stories or wedding night stories. Yeah, that’s awful.
So, you’re married and you’re pregnant. So many victims of emotional and psychological abuse, try to resist the abuse. By trying to stop it through common marriage advice, like loving serving, forgiving. Like being more understanding, thinking that if they act differently, it will protect them from the abuse.
It’s a really common form of resistance to abuse. What was your experience with this type of resistance to the abuse?
Chelsea: So, we end up getting married after the baby was born, he was a few months old at the time, because all this whole drama played out for a while before I ended up moving back and everything. But I didn’t notice, I moved back and that’s when I quit my job and like pretty much left my career.
I had a corporate career at that point, to be with him and be a stay-at-home mom. That’s like really what I thought I wanted at the time.
Anne: Yes, that is common, narcissists groom victims by making them dependent on them. Really quick, what’s his job?
Chelsea: He’s in the military.
Anne: Okay, so he’s got a stable, respectable job.
Narcissists Groom By Making Them Fully Dependent On Him
Chelsea: Yes, and that was used against me all the time. So then things really turned once I was fully dependent on him. That’s when things got even worse. At that point, we did some counseling and things like that, just like typical stuff. It’s crazy looking back on it now because, I don’t know what I was thinking. I think I really was just going through the motions. I don’t know any other way to describe it.
Anne: What did he seem like to the counselors? Did he seem like a really upstanding good guy to the counselors?
Chelsea: Yeah, and even through the years, like he will admit that he has “problems,” it would always be like yes, I have problems but it’s not me. As ironic as that is, you know what I mean?
Anne: If you just love me for who I am and help me out, but they’re your fault, because you’re not understanding and because you’re not patient and because you’re not forgiving or something.
Narcissists Groom By Blame Shifting
Chelsea: Or he would always blame my family because he came from like a very well-off family, and I didn’t. So, he always tried to make it seem like you know, I have a lot of trauma from my childhood. Which I feel like that plays into it, at least for me personally, and ending up in a situation like this, to begin with.
He would use that against me. Like well, you’re the one who has mental health issues. You’re the one who has trauma. Like it’s clearly not me, the only issues I have is, you know, the cheating or the prostitutes or whatever the case may be. Like, you are the one who is basically “crazy.” That was just really hard because I think in a way, I believed it.
Anne: Yes, narcissists groom victims by blame shifting. So, when did you recognize that this was abuse?
Chelsea: Oh, gosh, you know, not until probably the last six months to a year before I ended up leaving, which was earlier this year. I didn’t realize it was actual abuse. This is something he would say too, I was abusive. I’m not an abuser.
Anne: I play tennis, but I’m not a tennis player.
The “Toxic” Lie That Narcissists Use To Groom Victims (& Therapists)
Chelsea: Yeah, then he would even be like and, a lot of things he would say to like multiple marriage counselors we went to over the years were like, well, I used to be the abusive one but now we’re equal. Now we’re just toxic because we’re equal. Like that really came into play the last couple of years before I ended up leaving.
Anne: Because an abuser would never admit that he’s abusive.
Chelsea: Yeah, I think that’s part of it.
Anne: Then they believed him, right. You know what, this is a catch-22 because they admit they’re abusive, and suddenly they’re like a saint. Wow, this is a man who can really be honest and stuff.
In that way, you’re thrown under the bus because it’s like he’s changed what’s wrong with you? And then if they won’t admit it, and they just present as this really great guy, then they also are like, he’s a great guy. Like it’s a lose-lose. Either way, the woman isn’t believed. It’s a toxic lie narcissists groom victims with.
When Therapists Don’t Call Out Abuse
Chelsea: Yeah, and I will tell you something that happened when I was pregnant before we got married, and I was going to counseling or like therapy. I wish sometimes that they would call it for what it is. My therapist made it known that she did not like him, like as much as she could in a professional way, you know.
In hindsight, I’m thinking why didn’t she just tell me that was abuse? Instead of telling me, that’s not okay. You know, she was very adamant about that, I could see the conviction in what she said. But now in hindsight, why didn’t you just tell me I was being abused?
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, there’s a lot of validation in group whenever I would have a situation the BTR coaches would tell me “this is what’s happening.” That was very validating for me.
Anne: Yeah. That’s what we do here at BTR. Validate. How did you find BTR?
Chelsea: I binge listened the podcast and I was like, Oh, this is my life. I knew I needed something to help me. So then I went to BTR Group. I tell everyone about BTR
Anne: You mentioned, it was really validating to attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions because the coaches were saying. This is abuse and you found that to be really validating and helpful. Why do you think having a group of women who really understand what you’re going through is so helpful for healing?
DARVO Is A Way Narcissists Groom Victims
Chelsea: I remember, I think my first session, I don’t even remember the incident that was happening, but I told one of the coaches. What was happening and they were like, that’s DARVO. And I’m like, I don’t even know what that is. And then when she told me, I was like, oh my gosh, like my mind was like blown because I was like, this happens to me constantly.
How did I never know there was a term for this? That gave me strength because they would label things .
Anne: So this is the second way that narcissist groom, their victims. To deny that they’re abusers then to attack their victim. And then to claim that they are the victim and there’s an acronym for this and it is DARVO.
So DARVO stands for DENY, ACCUSE (Or ATTACK), and then REVERSE the VICTIM and OFFENDER ROLES for example. Prominent people who are accused of rape,
Bill Cosby is a good example. Someone accuses him of rape. He denies that it happens. Then he attacks the victim and says, no, no, no, she’s just trying to get money. She’s just trying to get attention. I’m the victim here because she’s trying to ruin my life. So the victim offender role gets reversed.
So again, deny, attack, and then reverse the victim and offender role. This is the second grooming tactic of a narcissist. that we’re going to talk about today.
BTR Group Sessions Can Help You Process Trauma & Abuse
Chelsea: Yeah, now that I talk to more people about this openly, I say the same thing. I think that’s what it got to. It was like I could tell him he was abusive all day long, you know, that went on for 6-12 months after I put a label on it, and that didn’t really help because he would just deflect like he did everything else before I put a label on it.
I do feel like there’s a lot of validation, when I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, whenever I would have a situation in group, and they would tell me what it was, that was really validating for me. This is what’s happening, and it’s like okay. Because they make us question our reality so much.
Anne: I just want women to know that like, you don’t need someone else to tell you, although yes, it’s helpful, that’s what we do here at BTR. It’s abuse, it’s abuse, it’s abuse all day long. Because I’m like, I just wish women had that inside of themselves, but I’m so grateful that we’re here to help validate.
Chelsea: I think that goes hand-in-hand with the narcissist thing. Like people always want to know is he a narcissist? And I’m like well, it doesn’t really matter. The label doesn’t matter because how is he treating you?
I Get To Decide if I Want to Be In This Situation
Then I kept going through the process of moving out and everything, and something aside from the support and everything. Hearing everyone’s stories was really impactful for me, because I realized I didn’t know what the goal was.
I knew it was supportive, but I didn’t know like how it would be. Once I saw that they aren’t really persuading you to do one thing or another, and it’s more about making your own decisions and deciding for yourself what you want to do or what’s happening.
Hearing other people’s stories and realizing wow, I get to decide if I want to still be in this situation 5, 10, 20 years from now or not, you know. That was very enlightening for me, hearing other people how long they had to go through it. Like, that was a real wake-up call for me.
Anne: I think that’s one reason why women are afraid to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group they’re afraid that if they find out it’s abuse, or if they acknowledge it’s abuse, that they’ll have to get divorced from this narcissist. For example, and they’re just not quite ready to do that yet. Or some other version of that where they feel like they’ll go down a road they don’t really want to go down. A lot of women worry about that. What would you say to a woman who’s concerned about that?
Find Validation in the BTR Group Sessions
Chelsea: From my experience, I mean, I can’t say because like I had already planned on leaving when I did join, but from the stories I saw, I remember just really seeing how people could find even that little bit of safety. Like, no they weren’t ready to leave or maybe they don’t want to leave at all and knowing they could have support.
Their feelings are valid, what they’re going through is valid, and even just finding the strength to be able to stand up for themselves or self-care. I always remember them asking what our self-care was for the day, and I remember being like I don’t know, I don’t ever do self-care, you know.
It’s so important even when you’re in that situation, you’re so like spun out trying to survive and like keep your head above water. It’s like a breath of fresh air to be in a group where you’re understood and validated. Regardless of if you are planning to leave or not.
Anne: We wanted to make sure it was safe for everyone, no matter where they are in their process and no matter what their goals are at BTR.
Our goal is safety. We just want to help women feel validated and make their way to safety in whatever way that it looks like for them. So that’s our goal here. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop is to help women gain safety.
Narcissists Groom Victims With Gaslighting
From your perspective, why do you think it takes so long to understand that you’re being abused? Maybe someone is pointing it out to you. Why do you think it takes maybe someone saying hey, that’s abuse for victims to understand that they’re being abused?
Chelsea: For me personally, I think it’s the art of gaslighting or the manipulation involved where for so long before anyone has even become aware. Maybe you nobody knows this is what you’re going through. Narcissist husbands use gaslighting to groom victims.
The abuser told you that it’s you. I wish I could tell more people because anyone I talked to their first thing has always been go to marriage counseling and I’m like marriage counseling was so detrimental for me. It’s was like we go into session talking about the infidelity or like, the abuse, and everything, and somehow, we ended up talking about forgiveness and the five love languages.
Anne: I hate The Five Love Languages. That’s so funny that you say that. Anytime I hear somebody talking about his love language is this or my love language. I am like, ugh, throw that book in the garbage.
Chelsea: That can end up being used. Basically, just that you’re not giving me enough of this, so I treat you this way.
When Narcissists Groom Therapists
Anne: Yeah, this is my love language, and I deserve it. Right? Or I’m entitled to this because it’s my love language. Of course, they’re always going to say their love language is sex.
Chelsea: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I’m just like, how did we start these sessions with this, and five weeks, six, eight weeks later we’re talking about how I need to forgive, or I need to put more positive bids into our marriage or just any of these marriage counseling things. I’m like this never; none of this got to the root of the problem.
Anne: It’s nonsense when it comes to abuse, but the weird thing is, marriage counselors in general don’t assess abuse first. They just literally go right into positive communication or let’s do a date night every week or you know, whatever.
If it really was an abuse situation, which all of these are, there’s no way you’d be telling somebody to go on a date with their abuser every week or even do the other things they say. It’s literally crazy.
Narcissists Groom Victims With The Unwitting Help Of Therapists And Counselors
Chelsea: To me, it’s the opposite of safety. You’re asking me to be vulnerable and to forgive someone who has not shown me that they’re a safe person.
Anne: Or trust someone who’s completely untrustworthy.
Chelsea: Yeah. They end up using that against you because, they’re the marriage counselor so you need to work on this. It’s like they bring up this list of things the marriage counselor told you to do and they’re not even working on whatever they told them to do.
Anne: Well, it’s hard to tell them what to do, because it’s like, don’t cheat. And they’re like, well, I haven’t cheated since I did last time, and I’m not going to do it again. So, what else can you say. That’s it.
Chelsea: Have more positive communication or whatever. I think that’s what makes it go on for so long. It feels almost like a video game or something. Like, you have to go through all these levels before you’re like okay, I’m not dealing with this anymore.
That’s how it feels to me. He made it seem like that too. Like, when they’re in the bargaining phase or whatever, they just start begging you to try one more time or try something different. So, it’s like, how many levels do I need to go through before this just isn’t going to work?
Narcissists Groom Victims As Part of the Cycle of Abuse
Anne: That’s part of grooming. It gives you hope that change might be possible, right?
Or they’re willing to work on it. It’s essentially just a grooming tool to hook you . Grooming is what is confusing all women about the abuse. There are these times where they “genuinely” want to work on it they’ll go to therapy, or they seem to understand.
They have these moments of what Looks like true introspection where they apologize and “I know how much I’ve hurt you and I don’t want to break our family up and, this is the most important thing to me in the world” all that is is grooming and grooming is abuse. I think people are seeing like, okay, it was good.
I think people are seeing like okay, it was good, and then it was bad. We were happy and he was nice, and then it was awful. They’re not recognizing that that nice part, that good part, that part that he’s “understanding it” or he’s cherishing you is abuse too.
Chelsea: This is my case, but I also think it’s a lot of people’s. The abuser doesn’t think they’re doing that or see that they’re doing that. So, it’s like unintentional. It’s almost like I can’t call that abuse because he’s not doing it intentionally.
Anne: So, this is confusing, right? Because you’re like, this is good. They were nice, they were kind, so are they good?
Narcissists Groom In Order To Maintain Control
Anne: An abuser’s goal is never real peace. An abuser wants control. He wants something from you. That’s the difference.
In those moments when he seems genuinely caring—when he sounds interested, repentant, or emotionally present, it can feel convincing. But there are strings attached. There is always a goal.
He becomes especially kind, attentive, and affirming when he wants something—sex, compliance, admiration, forgiveness, or access. That goal-oriented kindness is what makes it grooming. Narcissists groom victims by using affection as a tool, not as a reflection of who they truly are.
Once he gets what he wants, the tone shifts. Devaluing follows. Sometimes discarding follows. That’s because the connection was never about mutual care, it was about extraction.
Genuine love doesn’t work that way. When someone truly cherishes you, their kindness doesn’t depend on getting something from you. They don’t turn affection on and off based on access or advantage. They think you’re amazing whether or not they benefit. There’s no hidden agenda, just appreciation. That absence of strings is the difference between grooming and real love.
Narcissists Groom Victims To Protect Themselves & Exploit”
Anne: When you say that they don’t intend to hurt me or they don’t intend to be abusive, right? So, a lot of people will be like well, they don’t know they’re abusing me, so how can it be abuse? That’s not what defines abuse. What defines abuse is that it’s harmful to someone else.
So, they don’t have to know what they’re doing in order for it to be harmful to you. The abuse is the harm. It’s not necessarily their intent. But if their intent is completely selfish and goal-oriented then it’s exploitative, and it’s abusive.
For example, their intent might be I just don’t want her to know the truth because if she found out the truth, she would kick me out of our apartment. So, the intent is not to get kicked out of the apartment. They’re not thinking, I’m going to abuse her, I’m going to lie.
The only thing they’re thinking is, I don’t want to get kicked out of the apartment. So, their intent is to deceive so that they can maintain their entitlements so that they can exploit you and so that they can maintain their status. None of that is ever thinking oh, I’m going to abuse her on purpose. Narcissists groom victims to protect themselves and exploit.
Chelsea: That was so good because that’s something in so many conversations I’ve had. What happens when, you said like getting kicked out of the apartment. When that conversation is more like I don’t want to lose you? Because I think that one’s really hard because then there’s the implied value as their spouse or partner or whatever.
A Narcissist Does Not See His Victim As A Person
Anne: In moments like that, when he says, “I don’t want to lose you,” it’s important to understand what that really means. An abuser doesn’t see his victim as a whole person. He sees a collection of things he wants—sex, domestic labor, financial stability, access to children, or social standing. Narcissists groom victims by making them believe this is love and care.
So, when they say I don’t want to lose you, what they’re saying is I don’t want to lose it. I don’t want to lose someone who’s going to vacuum the floor, or lose any money and have to pay you alimony or child support or anything. I don’t want to lose the privilege of looking like a great guy at church and showing up on Sunday with my wife and kids, my reputation.
My guess is if you really pressed this and said what is it about me specifically that you don’t want to lose? I don’t really think they would be able to answer it. I don’t recommend people asking questions like that because they could come up with an amazing answer and all you’re doing at that moment is handing your abuser a shovel to further groom you with.
The abuser is in a trench, they’ve dug it through their own viewpoint, and they’re really entrenched in there. We never want to give them a shovel to dig themselves any deeper into that trench. Questions like that are going to just be handing them a shovel. They’re either going to groom you more or they’re going to abuse you in some way, devalue you in some way. Either way, it’s abuse to you and it’s an unsafe situation.
It’s Not Your Fault
You would know if they valued you already, you would feel it. If they really genuinely valued you, and it would be consistent over time. You would not have abuse and then grooming and then abuse and then grooming. You wouldn’t feel like you were married to Jekyll and Hyde.
Chelsea: Yeah, that’s what was hard for me for so long. I thought this vulnerable victim-part of himself that he would show me with him, and then start getting the whole picture and that all was part of him. The big part for me, I know everyone’s different.
I stayed so long because I in a way I guess I was codependent and that I felt bad that he suffered so much, that he had these issues. And I’m sure there was a lot of grooming as well.
Anne: Yeah. Well, think about like a girlfriend who’s been through really hard times who is like a good friend of yours. Like she’s kind, she’s supportive, she validates you. She does not use her difficult story or her difficult upbringing as a weapon to abuse you or to excuse her mistreatment of you.
She doesn’t use it to try and get people to feel sorry for her. Her response to her trauma was post-traumatic growth where she was like, you know what I’m going to go to college, and she’s just an incredible, amazing person. There are so many people who have had very difficult situations in the past, they’ve had trauma in their childhood, and they don’t abuse other people. They make really good choices. They think that is not the kind of life I want.
Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories
So let’s stop right here to point out this third way to recognize how a narcissist groom. Number three is that they try to get people to feel sorry for them. They want to say, “ell, I was abused as a kid and my life was really hard. I know someone who went through that, and they don’t abuse their wife. None of that is a reason.
Think about yourself. You went through a very difficult situation, and maybe your upbringing was bad, I’m just saying the general you, and do you lie and manipulate people? We just need to remember that all these sob stories, told in this context, narcissists groom victims with sob stories. That’s their only purpose. The purpose is to make people feel sorry for them so they can get away with bad behavior.
Chelsea: Yeah, for sure, and he groomed me very early on, but I told you how it all started. Well, I would say a month or two even before that was when the grooming began. In hindsight, where he started opening up about his childhood and stuff. Or things he had done in the past, like with his ex-wife that brought him so much shame. All this other stuff he said and cried and everything. And now, I’m like a major red flag, major red flag, but in hindsight that was clearly when the grooming began.
It’s A Red Flag When They Start The Relationship With a Sob Story
Anne: Exactly. Narcissists groom victims by getting people to feel bad for them. So that’s another thing for all the listeners, is that if you start the relationship out with them trying to get you to feel bad for them, then you can just stand up and get an Uber and go home. You don’t want to start there.
If you’re early in your healing and you lead with how victimized you’ve been when you show up on a date, that can work against you. I’m not talking about getting validation at BTR or with close girlfriends, those spaces matter. I’m talking specifically about how you present yourself to someone you’re interested in dating.
That’s dangerous because then they’ll be like, oh, I can just tell them I’ll never do that to you, and I’ll never leave you and that is like giving someone a shovel. They groom victims by telling them they would never do that. I would say abstain from dating while you’re feeling that vulnerable until you can get strong enough that you would never lead with that in a relationship.
Chelsea: We don’t realize that it’s grooming even from day one.
I Am Whole. I Am Working My Way To Healing
Anne: A great way to start a date would be like my life is great. I love it. Even if it’s not. Then people are like well, you know you’re not vulnerable or whatever. But I’m just saying get yourself to your place where you feel like I am whole, I am working my way to healing, I’m doing really well.
That is a good place to start dating from, I think. Rather than I’m trying to date to get someone to help me or I need something. I think that’s just too vulnerable of a place for us especially when we’re in trauma. That it just sets us up for more victimization.
Chelsea: Yeah, that’s so good. I’ve done a lot of deep dives on my own story, you know, over time, and I still have revelations like all the time about things I’ve been through.
Anne: Even now, like seven years later, I’m still getting insights about like, why did I think that, or this is what was really happening. There are insights that we have over time where we’re like oh, that conversation wasn’t even about that.
Narcissists Groom with Misdirection
One thing I’ve come to recognize is that my ex would pick fights with me late at night, then leave the house claiming he needed to cool down. At the time, I believed that explanation. Now I’m certain that wasn’t why he left.
He left because he had something else he wanted to do. I don’t know exactly what that was, maybe acting out sexually, maybe something else entirely, but I do know this: he needed an excuse to leave. So he created one. He picked a fight so he could justify walking out.
In the moment, it felt real. It felt like an actual conflict. Looking back, I can see there was nothing to fight about. He manufactured the conflict to make his exit look reasonable.
That’s one way narcissists groom victims through misdirection. They create a false reality so you focus on the argument instead of questioning why it’s happening at all.
Many women experience this. They think, He’s not attracted to me, or I upset him and he stormed out. They don’t realize he may have decided he wanted to leave and simply needed a trigger. Maybe he criticized her cooking, knowing she’d react, so he could say, See? I need to go.
Chelsea: Yeah, I felt that it definitely happened to me a few times. I don’t know what he was doing, but that’s a very good point.
BTR Group Sessions Can Help You
Anne: Do you have anything you’d want to share with women who might be hesitant to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions—or who are listening for the first time and wondering, Is this really for me? Maybe they’re thinking this sounds extreme, or they’re not sure it even counts as abuse, especially since narcissists groom victims in ways that don’t look harmful at first.
Chelsea: I get like being hesitant because I think it’s like admitting it, admitting this as a problem. It’s almost like taking a huge step in itself, and maybe that’s where the resistance comes from, but for me, it was just so helpful.
There were times when an incident would happen, and I’d have to wait a week so my therapist, or maybe some don’t even have a therapist. Maybe your friends or family don’t know what’s going on. I know I didn’t always want to be calling them every time something happened.
I remember it was once I finally, joined, it what a relief to know anytime there’s an incident I could get on the same day. Sometimes I didn’t even need to talk about it, but being in that space where I felt safe and not alone. It’s such an isolating experience to be going through this. Even just sitting and listening helped because it made me not feel crazy. It made me not feel so alone.
Support The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast
Anne: Our community is incredible, and I always say that when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany. When one of us gets to safety, it makes it better for everyone. We’re all working on deliverance together. And together, we can make this world a safer place, starting with our own home and then spreading it out to other women across the globe.
I’m so grateful that you found us, and I’m grateful that shared your story. Thank you so much.
Chelsea: Thank you for having me.
Anne: If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. Until next week, stay safe out there.
How to Find the Best Betrayal Trauma Support Group: 5 Things to Know
May 07, 2024
If you’re looking for the best betrayal trauma support group, here are five things to consider:
5 Characteristics of an Effective Betrayal Trauma Support Group
1. Can you get support quickly? And often?
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve all been through betrayal trauma and know how important it is to get the right support, right when you need it.
Our online group sessions eliminate the need for extra time to travel, park, extra money for gas or child care, or lengthy appointments or round-trip drive times.
You can attend a session from your bedroom, garage, or closet – whatever works best for your situation.
3. Do the support group professionals understand the true cause of betrayal trauma?
If you don’t know the cause of betrayal trauma, it’s impossible to heal. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches validate victims’ experiences and help women give language to their experiences.
One woman said, “After years of therapy, I was hopeless. Nothing was improving my marriage. My husband was using and lying to me.
“Then I discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. It was a revelation. I began attending Betrayal Trauma Group Sessions soon after that. So the Group Sessions opened my eyes. I wasn’t alone! I’ve felt seen when I couldn’t see myself. I felt heard and empowered. I finally started to make progress toward emotional safety and healing.”
4. Is the betrayal trauma support group safe?
Because victims of abuse and betrayal deserve a comfortable and compassionate space to work through the difficult emotions and memories that accompany trauma.
Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions have logical, safe guidelines, crafted carefully from years of experience dealing with betrayal trauma victims. Our Support Group ensures women feel protected and safe as they participate.
5. Does the betrayal trauma support group provide accurate, high quality resources?
In addition to the betrayal trauma support group, Betrayal Trauma Recovery has:
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop will teach you thought, boundary, communication, and message strategies to begin to make your way to emotional, and psychological safety. It also includes 13 meditations to heal you without having to make any effort. Victims of betrayal are often overwhelmed and stressed. Some aren’t able to even get out of bed some days. Feeling peace is almost impossible when you feel like your entire world is falling apart. These meditations in the workshop were written specifically for women who need immediate peace and healing.
Transcript: Women Share How They Found The Best Betrayal Trauma Support Group
Betrayal Trauma Victim #1: Even though my husband had been unfaithful and had a problem with viewing exploitative content. Therapists looked at our issues as a “couple problem.” The multiple therapists we saw had years of experience, but they knew nothing whatsoever about betrayal trauma, integrity issues or addiction, or the emotional abuse involved.
In fact, my husband was able to successfully gaslight one therapist to the point where he told me that if I would become a, quote, safe person, my husband would quit lying to me. I bet you can guess the result
Yep, my husband lied to me again, and again, and again. It was never about me. So when I finally found BTR, my husband and I had spent over 10 years and 10,000 in and out of couples counseling. Thankfully, everything turned almost on a dime the day I read an article on gaslighting from BTR. This was one of the biggest aha moments of my entire life. It was almost as if I could hear the angel singing in the background as 26 painful years of fog began to lift.
I immediately set up a coaching appointment with one of the BTR coaches and for the first time ever found someone who got it immediately. It’s the best support for betrayal trauma. I didn’t have to convince her, educate her, or prove a thing. She knew exactly what I was going through because she had been there, too. After years and years and thousands of dollars spent on traditional therapy, I finally found someone who understood exactly what I was going through, named it, educated me, and provided the support and contagious courage needed to become empowered to stop the abuse
Why Should I Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group Sessions?
Betrayal Trauma Victim #2: I remember the day that I first found BTR.
I was sitting on my back porch listening that day, desperately seeking some kind of help for my soul. I listened to Anne calling Betrayal what it really is, and acknowledging the pain and trauma that it really causes to us women. That podcast changed my life. I burst into tears of healing, validation.
Finally, someone was calling exploitative content use as betrayal. The harm that it actually is. Someone was seeing how abusive it is. Finally, someone had put together all the pieces of the puzzle and so many things finally began to make sense. It was my first moment of validation and clarity. Anne set me on my path of strength and healing right that moment because she was brave enough to share her own strength and healing.
BTR group is the most healing place a woman can possibly be after experiencing betrayal of any sort. It’s a safe, sacred, and healing space. The abuse informed and trained coaches are amazing, loving and wise, and they all remind us there is healing to be found as you navigate through this experience of betrayal trauma.
I just want to give a beg forever thank you to Anne, the Betrayal Trauma Coaches, and to BTR.
This Betrayal Trauma Support Group Changed My Life
Betrayal Trauma Victim #3: I’m very thankful for BTR. I feel that God led me to the website when I watched my first video
on exploitative content and betrayal trauma in relationships. I am a firm believer that this is infidelity. BTR group sessions have been so instrumental in my life. I’ve been going the last four months. I can get on every day and feel immediate. Love and support and validation from the coaches .
I just can’t thank the coaches and Ann and BTR enough for helping me through this journey. I feel very positive about my life, my future. Because I know I’ll always have BTR and I know they’re gonna help me get through it.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #4: Betrayal trauma recovery has helped me. Put the appropriate names to what I was experiencing and that would be abuse. In this group, The coaches help you feel like you are not the crazy one.
It’s So nice to know that like I’m not the only one. I just really appreciate the viewing exploitative content is abuse period because it’s so easily pushed to the side as a non-issue and it’s affecting so many really pure, noble women.
It helps me feel empowered to take the next step in my journey, whatever that step might be. I just want people to know that they’re not alone, they can listen to their intuition and by coming to BTR and sharing in a safe way, you feel more empowered after you leave the session every time.
Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions Helps Victims Create Safety
Betrayal Trauma Victim #5: BTR has been a group that has completely changed my life. It was something I didn’t even know was out there, didn’t even know that I needed, but has been a godsend. It’s life changing. The coaches are just your sister and they walk with you.
They help you all along the way. It’s also been good just to be able to watch the other ladies in here, to know that you have a group of people that completely understand where you are, what you’re going through, and even to see the progress you get inspired by their walk. To see the growth that they’ve done to now have the knowledge that we need to move forward to heal.
Whether we decide to stay or goal, BTR just really helps to heal us one step at a time and from the inside out. So I’m so appreciative of this group. It’s the best betrayal trauma resource.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #5: I am more than 10 years post-divorce and I discovered BTR within the last month,
I’m now hearing words that my soul has longed to hear for many decades as I walked, this journey without the resources that I needed. So I’ve experienced more healing that I just needed at this point in my life. The podcasts give me vocabulary and tools and affirmation by attending the group sessions.
I feel affirmed. I feel clarity, The BTR coaches are so professional. There are safeguards in place, so I feel like it’s a safe place to come. BTR coaches love us and they’re so well trained. I’m very, very grateful for BTR.
What is a Betrayal Trauma Support Group Like?
Betrayal Trauma Victim #6: I was desperate for help and search the internet for answers. I came across info on gaslighting. So this is what I’d been experiencing in my marriage for 26 years. And there’s a name for it. It was literally a mind blowing revelation for me that led me to the BTR website where I went on a podcast binge.
And listen to everything I could get my hands on. The fog of gaslighting began to lift and with the help of one of the coaches, I gained the courage to set some significant and appropriate boundaries. Her sessions were very informative and practical with examples, in a safe situation with feedback and encouragement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb13E7gmufs
Are Any Betrayal Trauma Support Groups Online?
Betrayal Trauma Victim #7: The BTR community is amazing. The support groups, everyone gets it.
There is no judgment. There’s no feelings of being victimized like with some therapists. I truly feel that everyone who participates validates our experience. the coaches Offer very helpful feedback and suggestions. A wealth of information. And I appreciate that people will share what has worked and also what hasn’t worked for them.
I really appreciate the ease of use. Many different times during the day that you can connect with the coaches. You don’t have to wait, and you don’t have to travel. You can do it from your computer. Especially for people with kids, the ability to quickly get an appointment and not have to find a babysitter. You can, you know, toss a movie in for an hour and get your needs met.
Get that validation and that help that we’re all searching for. So I strongly suggest people try it. The fee is nominal. It’s much less than you’re ever going to find anywhere else. You can use as many groups as you want during the month, it’s the best investment you can make in your recovery.
I’m a huge fan. I love the style, the program. I love the model
What are Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions Like?
Betrayal Trauma Victim #8: I was really desperate because therapists, like three of them in a row, didn’t work out. I was very blessed to find BTR. The BTR coaches are just wonderful.
The group meetings. are fulfilling in themselves, but the individual coach meetings are also wonderful. Everybody is so kind and helpful and gives me a lot of hope about what I’ve been going through. Thank you.
Feel Safe and Validated in a Betrayal Trauma Support Group
Betrayal Trauma Victim #9: In the midst of Finding out my spouse had been lying and cheating. Again, actually number six that I know of. The deepest, darkest moment of my life. I just happened to find the BTR podcast Words can’t express how listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast truly saved my life.
It made me feel like there are others out there. I wasn’t alone. The words of encouragement, education, support, and knowing that The situation is for real, and I wasn’t crazy, it was so comforting. After searching the BTR site, I noticed services were offered that could help even further. I decided now was the time and signed up for Group.
Words truly can’t express how this experience helped in my life. Each story and experience touch my life in so many ways. The encouragement, education, and knowledge received from coaches and other women will forever be a part of my life.
I wish I would have found BTR sooner, but I know it was simply in God’s timing to bring this organization into my life. I look forward to continuing individual sessions. Thank you, BTR and Anne for everythinG.
What is Marital Coercion? – Karen’s Story
Apr 30, 2024
What is marital coercion? It can take many forms, but maybe the most common is when a husband uses pornography and hides it from his wife. Karen, a victim of betrayal trauma (and a therapist), joins Anne on the to explain why this is sexual coercion.
To find out if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional coercion in your marriage, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Anne: I have Karen on today’s episode, she is a member of our community. She’s also a therapist. She’s going to use a pseudonym today to separate her professional work from her personal story. Welcome Karen. Why don’t you just start wherever you feel comfortable.
Karen: Sure, basically, my husband was unfaithful. And what happened to me was what happens to so many partners. It was a very slow, leaky discovery. Whereas I initially thought there was one affair. And just as I was ready to move on from that discovery and had actually handled that well, I began to discover, of course, the rest of it.
There was addiction involved, including multiple affair partners and acting out. As well as exchanging photographs and so forth. That was the beginning for me to discover what was actually going on for probably eight years before my discovery of it.
Anne: You mentioned you handled it “quite well.” I want to point out that I’ve had so many victims at the beginning who feel they have to deal with it in an “appropriate way.” Like somebody told them, they can’t react with anger, sadness, or depression. And so if you could talk about your experience dealing with it “quite well.”
And then also maybe why women are pressured to deal with it. In a way that a therapist, their church or society would be acceptable. Rather than allowing a victim to respond in any way that would be helpful to her.
The Extent of Coercion in Marriage
Karen: I think what is involved, at least for me. Is that I didn’t know the extent or depth of what was happening. And in fact, did not have the awareness of the emotional abuse and the depth of that either. Even though I knew something was wrong, I was in the dark.
But it made sense to me that my husband at that time and stage in his life had taken a wrong turn and made a bad choice. That people make mistakes and we are all flawed, and that now he was back on track. And he was very motivated to heal the marriage.
That was the information I first responded to. Even though that was extremely painful, I was able to walk through that with a bit of dignity and grace. So I was able to move through that rapidly, and to a place of acceptance and possibly moving forward. When I began to find out more information. Not realizing that it is coercion. So once I learned more information, I was in shock, just absolute shock. There are so many levels to this question.
I think we want to appear like we can handle it? Why do we want to look good while we’re hemorrhaging to death? It’s because there’s some shame in being a victim. And I think that’s societal, and that’s about where we blame the victim, we distance the victim from ourselves. So we can look at the victim and say, “Well, I’m not like her, or I’m not like them. And that will never happen to me.” It’s a really difficult thing to identify yourself as a victim.
Marital Coercion Supported By Soceital Pressure
Anne: That makes so much sense, especially when it comes to a husband’s use. I went through that exact same thing too. And I thought I was dealing with his addiction recovery with grace. I wanted to be like the most supportive, helpful wife. So many victims go through that, you are not alone in dealing with betrayal.
So you have a unique perspective, because you’ve been a therapist your whole life. And of course therapists are supposed to know about abuse. Likely before you found out you were abused, you thought I can recognize abuse. Can you talk about that?
Karen: Yes, you can be in a situation where you’re being emotionally and psychologically abused, and you don’t identify it. It’s a slow awakening. I had been in freeze for many years, and freeze is paralysis. But I wasn’t aware that I was in freeze. So it’s like a slow thawing out of recognizing what’s been happening. And I think part of that is because It’s so insidious when it’s not real overt. I minimized it because there wasn’t physical abuse going on.
About six years into our marriage, I confronted him about it. He would have an explosion verbally, he became critical, and so forth. And I basically told him at that point that I would not engage. So that actually was part of his rationalization and justification for acting out. In his twisted distorted thinking, that’s what he uses to justify himself. He will twist and distort reality into whatever shape he needs it to be, to explain and rationalize what he’s doing and why he has a right to do that.
The Myth Of Sexual Needs
Anne: That’s so common. All abusers blame their infidelity and abuse on something the victim did, because he’s not getting his “needs met.” And so he was justified in having an affair.
Karen: Yeah, I was not rejecting him. This was to keep myself safe. In my attempt to keep myself safe, he wasn’t getting his way. He continues escalating further to the point where he is caught. And all this comes out. I have heard these kinds of comments on Facebook and social media. And it’ll often be women who are having affairs with married men and saying, “Well, his wife doesn’t give him it.”
All of that is insane. And what’s going on is that it is not a need like food. There’s a myth that it is something that we have to have and cannot live without. I am totally for it. I understand at this stage of my development and evolution that it is not something that I have to have, like, for example, food. We do have to eat, or perish. We do not have to have it or perish, but we have a myth in society that that is the case.
Anne: And that it’s like a legitimate “need.”
Karen: Yes, and that it must be met. And so this feeds into the entitlement that men have.
Pornography Is Marital Coercion
Karen: Because if you think about toxic masculinity, what men have is toxic. We don’t want it. Feminism is not about imitating what men do, but about being able to completely fulfill who we are as women. To me, what that looks like is acknowledging that we have desires and can honor those. It does not mean we imitate toxic masculinity.
Anne: Or use something extremely toxic, like pornography, to pattern our healthy intimate life after. If you’re viewing it and thinking that’s what a healthy intimate life is, that’s not. It’s like the farthest thing from it.
Karen: Right, if you want to talk about healthy intimacy, it is a byproduct of intimacy and relationship. If we want to separate it out and use it as we use alcohol, drugs, and other experiences in a way that separates us from intimacy and relationship, that’s abusive and toxic.
https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw
Anne: Just like you and I were coerced for years, many people who participate don’t think they’re coerced. But they might actually be, and they’re abused in the process.
Karen: Yes, and I believe many people who do it and believe in it are in coercive situations. The sex positive movement can be a form of bypass. free love, rock and roll, and drugs and all that stuff. People actually believe it’s a spiritual thing to be that way. It’s just bypass in general.
Anne: Yeah, which I think is just abusive and ridiculous. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I have the luxury of saying this is my podcast, and what I think is it’s a bunch of bull crap.
Pornography Is Exploitive
Karen: But see, then that makes us uptight. So then that means I’m sex negative.
Anne: I don’t even play games with that. I say, no, it is wrong. It’s always wrong, it’s always going to be wrong. It’s always abusive. I don’t make apologies for that, which makes it nice here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. All the women who listen to our podcast have been victimized by marital coercion. And so any semblance of saying it’s healthy is so triggering and harmful to victims.
Karen: It’s exploitive. I don’t understand how that can be anything except part of enabling toxic masculinity and the abuse of women and children. It’s abusive. I don’t see it as consensual. Abusiveness is one major component of not only addiction, but all addiction. And in addiction, it is especially harmful.
People who use substances abuse the substance, rather than other people. And so they’re harming themselves in that sense, but in the addiction taking control and driving their behavior. They end up being abusive to the people around them, because they lie, deceive, and manipulate, and that’s abusive.
With the addict, it goes even further. And so to me, I see in the treatment industry, it’s like the elephant in the room. So they are not addressing the abuse component of addiction.
Anne: Yeah.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Mission & Workshops
Anne: That’s why I started podcasting. I didn’t want one other woman in the entire world to go through this and not understand that she was experiencing marital coercion. And so that’s why, rather than recommending treatment. We developed the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
Before it was a workshop, I used these strategies to deliver myself and my children from this type of coercive abuse. We know these strategies work. They’re incredible. Teaching victims about strategies and how to get to safety is so much more effective in terms of emotional and psychological abuse which is marital coercion in the form of secrets and affairs.
Karen: Yes, it’s absolutely beautiful work and I appreciate it. And thank you so much, because you are on the leading vanguard.
Anne: The lone voice of reason on the internet.
Karen: The treatment industry doesn’t want to address this and is not addressing it.
Anne: No, from what I’ve seen, men’s treatment programs, whether for abusers or addictions, are all about protecting him. And the victim is further abused in the process.
Karen: Yes, it is. It absolutely is. In the addiction industry, you are basically enabling the addict to continue to abuse. But you feel satisfied that you’ve done some form of harm reduction. That’s where it fails. It doesn’t go far enough to understand the abuse component.
Why, why are we sacrificing children and most often women to protect the addicts? To save face. How can you have these clients come in and say, not only are you an addict, but you’re an abuser?
Is It Marital Coercion? Critique Of Men’s Treatment Programs
Anne: Like that’s just too much for these poor guys, apparently. We don’t want to push them over the edge. And I’m like, what about the victim? He already pushed her over the edge. He’s like abandoning her out there. And so are the therapists. To me, it’s a subtle, actually not so subtle, a very obvious and insidious issue of misogyny.
Karen: That is the true crux of it all. We’re in a patriarchal system. It seems obvious to me at this point, but it was not obvious to me before. This has been going on forever, but we are only now beginning to face it. It’s such a horrific tragedy. My husband went to an intensive treatment program. And when I went for the week, the way I was treated for one week in this intensive treatment program was at the expense of me on behalf of the abuser.
Anne: Yeah, again, that’s why we never recommend men’s programs for addiction or abuse, because they don’t stop the abuse. But the abuser tends to become more abusive. I know that because I used to recommend a few, and then the victims would come back, and I would hear horror stories.
I mean, he is an abuser. He’s going to weaponize anything at his disposal, including a treatment program against his victim.
Karen: Yes. And I believe that.
Marital Coercion In Relationships
Anne: Let’s talk about the marital coercion in the form of men secretly use and lie to their wife about it, knowing that that is outside her boundaries.
Karen: I personally am clear about it. In fact, I told my husband early on that I am not okay with it, that I’m not comfortable with it, that I don’t want it in my life or in our environment whatsoever. And asked him if he would respect that, and he said yes.
Anne: Exactly, so then at that point, if he is using it secretly, lying to you and soliciting prostitutes. If he’s lying about any of that, it’s marital coercion to keep you in the relationship.
Karen: Yes, by going ahead and engaging in that without telling me, he’s altering my reality. He’s actually robbing me of agency. It’s not about “Hey, I like it and I’m going to use this for me over here.”
It’s like women have the right to say, “No, I’m not comfortable with that. I don’t want that in our relationship. And I don’t want you to do that.” That doesn’t mean they’re not open minded.
The Impact Of Deception
Anne: If he was honest and said, “I hide who I really am. So people will continue to think that I’m a good person. I, for sure, don’t want to tell anyone that I view it and masturbate all the time. Sometimes I have hookups with people I barely know. I solicit prostitutes. Sometimes I’ve had affairs with married women.”
“If I ever get caught, me like blatantly saying that will make me look like a bad person. So I’d rather pretend like I’m a little bit sorry and I might want to change. Even though I have no intention of doing that. I just know it’s not socially acceptable to admit this. So I act like I’m ashamed and embarrassed. But I’m not really. I highly doubt I will ever stop.”
That’s not marital coercion. Because then you can say, “Oh, okay. Thanks for letting me know, have a nice life.” Marital coercion is when he lies about it. So, if you tell him, “I am not comfortable having it with a man who uses it.”
Then he lies to you and says he doesn’t use it.
Karen: Yeah, it’s deception.
When Women Suspect Marital Coercion
Karen: Women are perfectly allowed to have our own preferences and boundaries. There’s nothing that we should do outside of what is comfortable for us and what we ourselves desire and want to be part of. I had my boundaries before any of this happened. My boundaries were monogamy, no exploitative material, that we would both be faithful.
They were very, very clear. And I did not equivocate about those whatsoever. My husband agreed to all of them. And that’s my understanding of our relationship. Until I find out one day that none of those parameters are honored and all that is violated.
Anne: Oh, it is so heart-wrenching. Then when you tell people about it, they act like, “Oh, well, sometimes relationships don’t work out.”.
Karen: Women in this society are abused, like it’s just part of life.
Anne: Yeah, abuse should definitely not be dismissed in that way. You think about a rape victim, who’s raped by a stranger. Everyone knows. They should never say, “Oh, some people just get raped. It didn’t work for you to walk down that street. Hopefully, you can just move on and stop being so bitter about it.”
They would never say that. But marital coercion is rape. And they literally say that to rape victims. Betrayal Trauma victims have been coerced. And so it’s just as harmful to say something as flippant to a woman raped by a stranger. As it is to a woman who has been coerced continuously by her husband for years, years and years. This is years of abuse.
Systemic Issues & Patriarchy
Karen: And I think all of it comes down to toxic masculinity. And a patriarchal system in which men are privileged and entitled, and everything in our culture encourages that. The victim is blamed on every level and corner of society. So this is not a matter of an individual man.
It’s not a matter of your husband or mine. This is an entire systemic issue that is at the heart and at the core of all this. And if you want to look at a betrayal trauma victim and say, “Well, move on and find another relationship”, then you are absolutely not acknowledging or seeing that what is beneath this has to do with our entire society and every one of us.
Anne: Absolutely, it’s definitely a systemic problem.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Reach & Impact
Anne: We know that because this podcast has had millions of downloads. And that’s hard for people to wrap their heads around. As I talk to people, and tell them how many followers Betrayal Trauma Recovery has. And all the clients that we see every day in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session. Or the women desperate for a strategy to know how to get to safety.
Karen: Yes. For example, one woman came back to me and said, “You really pissed me off, but I knew in my heart that you were right.” I tried to get through that she is actually being coerced.
Victims’ Resistance to Marital Coercion
Karen: The problem is many women believe what they’re doing makes sense. They are somehow more liberated than other women, or they are special. Because we are taught that we can be the special one, and we can be the one that understands men. We’re not like the poor victim woman.
Anne: And that in itself is a form of resistance. Because they’re just trying to stop the chaos. And they don’t know how. And so that is the most effective thing they can think of at the time. I mean, back before I married, I remember. Thinking as long as you had it, your husband wouldn’t cheat on you. But then I’m giving my husband as much as he ever asked for. And he was still using it and masturbating.
Karen: Right. It has nothing to do with the volume or amount.
Anne: No. Or even the type. So many women in an act of resisting abuse have engaged in it, which makes them uncomfortable. Thinking that type of transaction will keep them safe. And they find out later it didn’t keep them safe, that they are exploited.
Karen: So many women began offering more, being more available, or dressing in a certain way. Actually, they will have their husband telling them they would do this and he would be satisfied. This is all completely, absolutely wrong. It has nothing to do with how you look or anything whatsoever to do with you. It has only to do with the betrayer, who is doing everything under his power to satisfy his addiction.
Objectification Of Women
Anne: Right. And for the victim, that’s not her motivation. She just wants love. She wants to sacrifice herself for the coupleship.
Karen: Well, yeah, and you’re groomed as a child to be pleasing as a female. And you are taught as a woman in this society that these are the things that women should be. Based in the patriarchy, women are basically asked to be objects to survive in this patriarchal system.
So the better object we can be. The better we perform as an object, the more we are secure, and we’re all about security.because that is the heart of who we are as women. We provide security, we build nests, and we want to make a good, comfortable, safe place to be. And so in exchange for that security, we are asked to be objects. We are nothing more than that. And so the better object we can be, the better we will be taken care of.
But as a woman, you have to come to the point at some point first, to understand that you are an object, and then you have to understand that you never were, and that that is not who you truly are, and that you have been used and exploited as an object in an entire system from the get go.
Resistance To Objectification
Anne: Every woman resists objectification on some level. When I was a teenager, I did not want to do my hair or wear lipstick. But those of us who reject that objectification also get the consequences of rejecting it. Which in my case is that I wasn’t as liked by boys. I was accused of being too outspoken or too opinionated. So then I got all these other labels, because I’m not acting like the object they want.
Karen: I rejected that, but simultaneously, I didn’t know how to be true to myself. And be authentic and not be rejected. I didn’t even know that existed, because you instinctively knew that that wasn’t true. You instinctively knew that lipstick and all those things, that doesn’t fit. But when you go out in the world and you’re among people.
Anne: I put it on.
Karen: Yeah. That’s what’s reflected to you is this is the game girl.
Anne: Yeah, so I put it on because it’s appropriate and I’m not stupid. So I wear it.
Karen. Thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your story. Listeners, I’d love to know what you think about marital coercion, and about all the things we talked about today. So go to our website, btr.org search for this episode using the search bar. Once you find the article, scroll down to the bottom and comment. I want to know what you think.
Types of Exploitation – A Conversation with Anne Basham
Apr 23, 2024
Whether it’s objectifying one human being through domestic abuse or many through trafficking, dehumanizing women is a despicable act. One of the types of exploitation is so common most people don’t know how harmful it is. Anne Basham, CEO of Anti-Trafficking International (ATI), joins Anne to dive deep into the correlations between pornography use, domestic abuse, and human trafficking.
Anne: We have Anne Basham on today’s episode. She understands the connection between trafficking and domestic abuse. has worked in both the legislative and executive branches of the federal government, as well as government relations in the private sector. Where she advocated on behalf of human rights such as violence against women, child welfare, human trafficking and genocide. Most recently Ms. Basham was the senior advisor at the Department of Justice for Victims of Crime.
Anne B. helped develop strategies to help victims of human trafficking, assault, and violence against women and children. This is why she is passionate about empowering children, parents, and frontline responders to effectively recognize and respond to human trafficking. Welcome Anne Basham.
Anne B.: Thank you so much for having me.
Anne: Before this episode, we talked a little about how trafficking and grooming intersect with narcissism. And the type of abuse that I talk about on this podcast all the time, all day long, every episode. So as we talk about trafficking, where you see some overlaps.
I would like you to bring that out of the woodwork for our listeners. Since all of our listeners marry, men who exploit women. So I want both of us to remember that. So we can always bring it back to our listeners, and what they can do, and even how it can help them in their own situations.
Intersection Of Types of Exploitation
Anne: Let’s talk about how men groom women to exploit them. Because I talk about grooming on this podcast about what men do to their partners, trying to make them look like a good guy. Talk about grooming in this context
Anne B.: Yeah, so there’s definitely a lot of crossover. So grooming really is conditioning someone to do something that is not within their nature. This can obviously happen in a marriage, as well as in trafficking. That’s one of the crossovers. In human trafficking, there’s a big misconception that human trafficking is mostly someone coming and kidnapping a child off your front lawn.
That is not how trafficking usually happens in America. Usually it’s grooming. It’s a boyfriend at a high school who appears like a wonderful guy. He may appear like a wonderful guy to the parents, he lures her in. And conditions her slowly over time to either do things she doesn’t want to do through coercion or force, or then he threatens her.
Coercion In The Context Of Trafficking
For example, it’s video recording sexual acts and then threatening to put them on the internet, or show them to peers. It could be physical threats of violence against her or her family. It’s really through coercion, fraud or force. But it happens through the mechanism almost always of grooming instead of straight kidnapping.
Anne: That’s super important for our listeners. I have talked to many women in our community who have been filmed by their husband and experienced marital coercion. For example, he put a camera in the shower and then uploaded it to the internet for money. Or filmed them secretly. So if she never finds out about it, is that still considered trafficking?
https://youtu.be/Cnda4Lcrb0A
Legal Definitions Of Exploitation
Anne B.: The definition of trafficking is, it involves money. Trafficking uses fraud or coercion, then attaches money to it. For example, you can be groomed in different situations. But when it’s trafficking, you’re exchanging goods. The underpinning of trafficking is greed. Think of it like drug trafficking, it’s very similar. How can we monetize a person as a product and get money for them, and that’s what’s underneath.
Anne: So if a man secretly films his wife in the shower or in other private moments, and puts it on the internet and sells it as mainstream pornography. That would be trafficking?
Anne B.: That’s a really interesting question. If he films it with the intent of making money, that can cross the line into trafficking. Trafficking by definition has to do with an exchange of money. Legally, for it to be trafficking, there must be a sexual act.
So if she’s in the shower and he videos her, puts it on the internet and sells it, it’s probably illegal. But it’s not technically trafficking. If however, he videos her in an act with him, and then puts it on the internet with the intent to make money, it’s trafficking.
Anne: So if I were a trafficking husband’s defense attorney, I would say “Well he didn’t mean to make money. That wasn’t the intent”, and I would get off.
Anne B.: I don’t know if you’d get off or not. It’s up to the attorneys. It’s definitely a gray area, but if it can be proven that it was videoed and then intended to make money off of it in any way. Then that crosses the line. And the legal definition is coercion, fraud or force.
Exploitation and Domestic Abuse
Anne B.: So if that video is used in a coercive way, it’s also crossing a line.
Anne: Interesting. So it sounds like we need a little stronger laws on the books in terms of men filming their wives and putting it on the internet. Many women come and say my husband filmed me, he put it online. I don’t know what to do. And they’re trying to figure out if I save my marriage or not. I want to be like you’ve got a serious abuser on your hands if that has happened to you.
Anne B.: Oh yeah, absolutely. The issue is, if I can just go down that road, is that it primes someone to think exploitation is acceptable. There’s a huge link, and it’s not discussed enough. Fortunately, people are talking about it much more. But it used to be, oh no pornography is something innocent. If people willingly exploit people to make it or exploit people they view, what’s the issue? The answer is in the question.
Just to give you a quick understanding of trafficking: there are the traffickers, and those are the people selling the victims. And then there are people called recruiters, who could be teenagers in high school. Think of it in terms of drug trafficking. You have people who sell the drugs, you have the supplier who gives them the drugs. They think of usually girls the same way. So the target age I should say of a person who’s trafficked is actually 11 to 15. But it goes up to 25.
Exploiter’s Mindset
Anne B.: The mindset is similar to a narcissist. I worked at the Department of Justice, I met with a man who spent his life working on reforms in the criminal justice system. He writes books. He’s a leader at a college. And he said to me point blank on the phone that the connection between an abuser in a domestic violence relationship and a human trafficker are the same. Exploitation and men who use coercive control are linked.
It’s just in one case they do it with one person, and in the other they do it with many people and for money. So that was interesting to hear from him, because he said that to me at the beginning of a meeting. But I will tell you that traffickers target their victims. It’s a lot of mind games. So that’s a lot of similarities that you’ll see with some of your listeners. You don’t see many people who are purchasing the victims.
Exploitative media conditions your brain and what you see on the screen.
It’s even more violent, it’s not always consensual. And every time someone consumes it, their brain has a dopamine hit. So when their brain gets that dopamine hit, what happens? They want the next. There’s a woman on our board of directors, and she is an expert in addiction. She explained to me that it’s more difficult to break a sex addiction than any other addiction, because you carry your sexuality everywhere you go.
Exploitation: The Motivation Of Domestic Abuse
Anne: I think the thing that’s hard for wives of these men to wrap their heads around is that this is an abuser, their husband is toxic. So even if he has an “addiction”, it’s domestic abuse to you. His addiction is an addiction for him, he has the addiction. What you have is an abusive man. It’s important to know that this is directly tied to domestic abuse. Someone willing to lie, manipulate, narcissistic abuse or covert abuse. If someone is that type of abuser, and he’s a man, then he is likely to use exploitative media.
So many women will say he didn’t use exploitative media, but he lied, he manipulated, he did all these other things. In the back of my mind, I’m always thinking, it’s so easy to hide. You can use it on your phone. It doesn’t smell. It’s not like a drug or like alcohol, where you can smell it on your breath. It’s very easy for someone to hide this from their spouse forever, and they never find out about it.
Anne B.: Oh absolutely, I completely agree.
Anne: There’s this sense that a human being is not really human. That they’re a drug. That they are bought or sold and can be manipulated. In the case of a husband, it’s more like she’s a tool. She can do my laundry, do my dishes, and give me it. These are the things that she is good for. And I’m going to use her for those things. Rather than actually seeing her as a partner.
Coercion: How Abuser’s Exploit
Anne B.: Absolutely, that’s the core of it. That was what I think this man at the Department of Justice was trying to get at, is that the core mindset is objectification of the person. They objectify the person they marry, or they objectify the victim through trafficking. That’s the similar element. It’s a piece of property. Exploitative men who do it are modern day slavers. Because it’s slavery.
People can’t get out. They’re literally trapped. They’re stuck in that situation that always starts with seeing someone as property and not seeing them as equal to yourself in value or worth.
Anne: Something you said reminded me of our listeners. You said traffickers play mind games with their victims. To get them to the point where the victim is willing to do something they normally wouldn’t be willing to do.
Exploiters play mind games with the victim to manufacture her consent. She would say, “Yeah, I gave consent.” She doesn’t realize all the mind games she’s experienced, manipulation and all the coercion. She actually thinks she gives her consent, when she is manipulated and coerced. Is that accurate?
Anne B.: Yes, absolutely.
Anne: When I say this relates to our listeners, there’s nothing more consensual than saying yes to getting married. People don’t realize she was manipulated and coerced. And says yes, but she is to, manipulated, and coerced. People think that if you give your consent, it’s not abuse. They don’t realize that people are abused into giving their “consent” when they’re actually not giving consent at all.
Trafficking Victims’ Security
Anne B.: Oh absolutely. Coercion can happen in any form. It may not fit the legal definition of trafficking, because there may not be an exchange of money, but people can be coerced. Previously in my career, I worked in violence against women. That is often the case, that it actually kept them literally trapped in the relationship. We also see that in trafficking.
Interestingly, victims oftentimes are in safe houses and have not just normal locks, but real security at these facilities. I remember when I first visited, I thought, oh this must be to keep the traffickers out. No, it’s not to keep the traffickers out. It’s usually to help keep the victims in, especially if they’re under 18. They don’t want to be trafficked. They’re glad to be out.
But simultaneously, there is this feeling that they have to return. Because there’s enormous fear, and I see that all the time with the commonality of narcissism.
Anne: Let’s talk about the types of exploitation in your community. Because many people think of trafficking as if your child got trafficked, so you never saw them again. But from what you’re saying, your child is trafficked right under your nose while they’re still living in your home.
Anne B.: Yes, the woman who actually heads up our parent coalition, her daughter, was trafficked right out of her own home. So here in wealthy Fairfax County, one of the wealthiest counties in the country, right outside of Washington D.C., parents were married in all of those circumstances.
Anne: So what you’re saying is that this is not who you imagine as trafficked.
Trafficking: Exploiters Are Deceptive
Anne B.: No, this is not who you may imagine being trafficked. And I will tell you this woman has come forward and is public with her story. But I know of plenty of these scenarios that are not public and will never be shared publicly for the protection of the daughter’s identity. You know who is involved in the family. Let me tell you there are names that your listeners would recognize, and their children have been victims even out of private schools.
Which is shocking to people, like how could this happen to people with intact families? The profile of what we think fits a trafficking victim isn’t always there. I will say that victims can be compassionate and kind. And actually, some of the greatest strengths are some of the things perceived as weaknesses.
Anne: When you say the victims aren’t always what you think or not what you think at all, that’s also true of the traffickers I’m assuming. But you’d think, oh a trafficker is supposed to look this way. He’s not supposed to wear a white shirt and tie. He doesn’t go to church and he doesn’t have a good job. And I don’t think that’s the case either. Right, so many traffickers look like an upstanding member of society.
Anne B.: So there’s the traffickers and especially the recruiters So sometimes they are gang related but not always. And the recruiters often are very charming, I will say most of the time these people are very charming.
Love Bombing, Trafficking, and Recruitment Tactics Of Exploitative Men
Anne B.: They can do a lot of the love bombing, which I’m sure your listeners are familiar with. What love bombing is, where they shower them with gifts, flattery, and attention and fill all those needs. And through the love bombing, the victim just says this person is so wonderful. They’re getting all their dopamine hits, wow, this person’s just checking all my boxes. Unfortunately, the trafficker or recruiter knows this. And so absolutely, they don’t fit a certain profile.
And I will say with that, to the buyers, one of the most interesting things to me is that you have the people selling it. Who’s buying these girls? Who is the consumer of exploitation? That’s what I feel the focus should be. I don’t have the source of the statistic in front of me, so I’m not going to state the statistic explicitly, but it’s a real statistic that a large percentage of the buyers.
And so I don’t want to say the number, because I don’t have it in front of me. But a large percentage of victims’ buyers are white evangelical males, and I believe that’s because there’s a huge link to exploitative media. And so I would encourage your listeners, because I know most of them are coming out of some form of abuse. If there is abuse in your marriage, I would really have your wits about you.
Religious Abuse & Maintaining Control
Anne: This is a scary thing. I would say most of our listeners are women of faith. But some of them aren’t. We have agnostics that listen, and atheists that listen, and we’re interfaith and inter paradigm. So everyone is welcome here. But I think the thing that shocks the Christian listeners is that they thought they were a righteous man because he attends church, and because he can quote the Bible and other things.
And wrapping their heads around the fact that those are grooming tactics that he is using to maintain power. Because there is power in the church. If you’re a righteous man, that is alarming. It’s hard to understand. That like yes, Jesus is there, and yes, Jesus can save people. But in this case, your husband isn’t going to church to worship or be a better person, he’s actually there to maintain power.
Anne B.: Let me address that, because that’s an important point. You’re absolutely right. Some of the worst stories of trafficking I’ve heard over the years, and the ones that went on the longest, the person was very religious. And I don’t just mean Judeo-Christian. They could be any religion and just very religious. I’ve heard this from many religions, because with faith, I’m also a person of faith. You get all the wonderful elements that provide morality.
A purpose in life and an explanation of basically why we’re here. But as with anything, there’s an opportunity for someone to come in and manipulate it. And basically hijack religion in the name of control.
Hijacking Of Religion For Power
Anne B.: And it is a hijack. It’s not the intent, but the hijack of religion in the name of control. And so unfortunately, exactly what you’re talking about happens. They appear as a wonderful wise person, a wise religious leader. And in reality, they are using that as an abuse of power.
Anne: The most common example is a so-called righteous man maintaining control in his own home. And some religions explicitly say he’s supposed to do that. He’s the head of the household, and he’s supposed to call all the shots. And women are supposed to submit to that. That gets scary for abuse victims, I think, because they have their abuser manipulating them. But then they feel like the tenets of their faith are also fighting against them getting help.
Anne: One of my goals is to help women of faith see that God loves you. He does not want you to be abused. These things being used to abuse you are not true. They’re not part of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they’re not part of any healthy religion. They’re simply abuse used to oppress you.
Jesus’ Teachings On Protecting The Vulnerable
Anne B.: As a Christian specifically, I will tell you that if we take just Christianity for example. And we just look at the Bible. Jesus made it so clear. And if you say, for example, just in the Christian religion. If you say you’re a Christian, what does that mean? You’re supposed to be a follower of Christ. Well, what Jesus said over and over is that he looks out for women, the victims, and vulnerable.
Those were the people he helped, and even the intent. So in the U.S. law, and this is just U.S. law. When you go to a court, they say to you, “What’s the language and what’s the intent?” That’s how everything works. Okay, what’s the language of the law, but what’s the intent of the law? And the same actually holds true, especially in the Bible itself. Not just what’s the language, but what was the intent.
You know, when Jesus said to the Pharisees words on divorce, it always comes down to what was the intent. Because even in the New Testament, they look back at the Old Testament. And King David is praised for breaking laws by feeding his own soldiers out of forbidden bread from the temple. So he took forbidden bread from the temple and fed his soldiers because they were in a crisis. They needed food, and he was praised for “breaking the law.” Because what was the intent of the law?
Who Do Exploitative Men Target?
Anne B.: The intent of the law was to save people. The intent of the law was always to protect people, to save people. It was never for us to just serve the law.
Anne: It certainly wasn’t used to oppress. Especially your wife, we’ve talked a little bit about who exploiters target. You’re saying these are women, girls, and boys sometimes who you would not expect. Who are coming from affluent families or other situations. You don’t typically think of for victims. So let’s talk more about that, who do traffickers target, and what are the misconceptions?
Anne B.: Technically anyone could become a victim of human trafficking, but they generally target certain ages. So like I said, age 11 to 15, which is shockingly young, is the prime target for most human trafficking victims. But it can range all the way up to age 25. The second thing is girls are targeted more than boys. Boys are targeted too, absolutely, but it is mostly girls.
One of the other factors is perceived vulnerability, either social isolation or weakness. Like I said, it doesn’t mean that doesn’t happen across the board. One of the biggest misconceptions is that people think this can’t happen to my kid. And I say it over and over, “Yes, it absolutely can happen to your child.” So when I say perceived forms of weakness, that can be even positive. Sometimes perceived forms of weakness could be someone who is just extra compassionate.
How Do Exploiters Trick Victims?
Anne B.: Sometimes it’s a girl who wants a boyfriend. And why would that be her fault? Because often the exploiters deceive her this way.
And he comes along and sweeps her off her feet. The last thing is appealing to flattery. One of the biggest ways girls can be lured in is through flattery. It’s by the simple phrase, you look like a model, you look so beautiful. Do you want to be a model? I don’t know if your audience wants to watch it, but there’s a video on Netflix called Hot Girls Wanted. It’s a documentary on how girls get lured through grooming, and starts with, “Hey, we want models.” And they get lured away.
Exploitation Prevention Through Education
Anne B.: Almost all funding for human trafficking in the United States goes towards after care. So most people don’t realize we are third in the world for human trafficking in the United States. Which is shockingly high. And then of that, most funding and resources in America go for after someone is recovered. Only 1% of victims of human trafficking victims are ever recovered.
From my perspective, and your audience can attest to that, I’ve never met a victim who didn’t sit there and say to themselves, “I wish I’d known,” fill in the blank. “Maybe I could have,” fill in the blank. Because it’s not their fault, but they play this guessing game, I wish I hadn’t fallen down the hole. You know, I wish I had known to avoid this.
And so, what our organization does is focus heavily on the prevention side. We want to stop human trafficking before it starts. We have various programs, but every one of them is very, very focused on prevention. And our main programs actually have to do with education. So I know you mentioned earlier, but my master’s is in education. I am just a firm, firm believer that education is truly the best form of prevention.
Because when we know better, we do better across the board. And we can avoid things for lack of knowledge. People do perish, but with good knowledge, people can avoid horrible horrible things. And so we focus on the prevention side. Because Benjamin Franklin said it best, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” For all the resources available.
Reframing Exploitative Media As Abuse
Anne B.: I’ve met these trafficking victims. If you sat across from one of them, eyeball to eyeball. You would want to pour everything you could into making sure that person never had to go through that in the first place. That they never had to experience any of that, or have their little girl dreams just ripped up to shreds.
Anne: That’s interesting, you say that. I also have a master’s degree in education. It’s my main goal in life. To be like, this isn’t just an addiction issue where you can be like, oh okay honey, I love you. I’m going to support you while you go to 12 step. You have an abuser in your home and you need to act accordingly.
This is a serious thing. And can he change, sure, will he change? I don’t know, but you need to get to safety and wait from a safe distance, and know what safety looks like. Know what you’re looking for to be safe. Not just take his word for it that he stopped using this explotiative content.
My goal is to ensure that those young women don’t end up marrying these narcissistic abusers in the first place. That is so good. The prevention aspect of this is really important, as our listeners think about my daughter or son. How can I better safeguard him or her? What would you recommend for how to safeguard children from exploitation or trafficking?
Safeguarding Children From Exploitation
Anne B.: Well, the first thing is as a parent, really just educating yourself in various ways. It’s eye opening. I spoke to a PTA locally. And was told behind the scenes there was one woman, who basically got on because it was part of the PTA. She wasn’t sure she even wanted to get on.
She told my friend, “I don’t need to hear this.” She was more engaged and shocked by the information, because she truly didn’t think it could happen to her kid. And my goal, as a parent and someone, like I said, who has an education background. Is to equip parents first and foremost. Number one thing is that parents need education, and then pass that information along to your kids.
We have a resource on our website that’s actually a parenting tool. You can download totally for free, and it is a guide for you to talk to your kids about this. Because I know it’s a difficult thing to talk about, but it’s a great door opener to talking about narcissism and all sorts of other qualities that we look for in the people that we date.
Because that’s one of the key things to discuss is what qualities we look for. And what are those red flags that we look for in a relationship?
Ethical Issues With Exploitative Media
Anne: Some of the things that our listeners grapple with are. How “bad” is my husband? Is he a good guy who can stop? Is our marriage okay? Do I need to file for divorce yesterday? They have these questions. They’re trying to navigate. Can you talk really quick about the progression to consuming child abuse material? Why anytime someone uses exploitative media, it’s serious.
Anne B.: As I mentioned, it can progress to that in some cases. What’s even available on the internet is shocking to women.
Anne: Rather than saying an escalation of the addiction, I would say an escalation of the abuse. If we ever do run into victims in exploitative media and they say I’m so proud to be exploited in this way.
Hollywood Exploitation
It reminds me of myself when I was so “proud” of my husband, who was in recovery for addiction. And I would prop him up as like he’s in recovery, and he’s doing so well, and I’m so proud of him. For overcoming all the problems he had as a kid and all this stuff, right. Not knowing that I was manipulated. So I thought that was true, but it wasn’t true. So I was standing up in front of people talking about my amazing husband who had overcome all these things.
He had manipulated me into saying that. So when these women were the centerfold and proud of it, we can’t know exactly what took her there to think that that was a good thing.
Because I thought it was a good thing until my whole world started falling apart. I’ve read three articles lately. One about Selma Hayek, one about Sharon Stone and one about Jennifer Love Hewitt about coercion. Just in the R-rated movies they were in. They were so excited to be this lead in a movie, and they showed up on the set. They didn’t expect a exploitative scene, and they are forced to do it by the director and a bunch of men standing around.
And all three of them, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Sharon Stone and Salma Hayek, say it was traumatic. They were misled with words like that, they were coerced. And so just with a regular R-rated movie where you think this woman was paid like she’s on this poster. Everybody knows she’s in it. They wouldn’t think she was coerced into doing these types of scenes in those movies.
Exploitation On Movie Sets
Anne B.: But it’s hard, they pay them. Think about it, you have a contract, people standing around, and you don’t know all the details. And then someone stands there and says you need to do X, Y or Z. And it’s very easy to stand on the outside and judge. I hear it all the time, well why didn’t they just say no, or why didn’t they just… Don’t judge until you have literally walked through this, because it is subtle.
Anne: Yeah, and that’s “just” a movie. I’m realizing now there was one more It was Amelia Clark from Game of Thrones. She too was surprised that she’d need to show her breasts, and she was upset about it. But she said “She didn’t have a big enough name and all these people were standing around.” And they said, “Well, if you won’t do this we need an actress who will and you’ll lose your job.” That’s coercion.
I’m grateful that women in Hollywood are now starting to talk about this and write articles about it. So we know Amelia Clark had this problem, because there’s an article about it in CNN. More and more women are saying, “Wait a minute, no, no and no.”
And also after the fact, when we realize that wait, my whole marriage was a sham. I was groomed from the beginning, and he never truly cared about me as a person. He was never a partner, he just wanted to use me. Now I know the truth. We’re trying to share that with other women, so that we can all stay safe. Whether it’s in Hollywood, whether it’s in our own relationships or how we can keep our kids safe, obviously.
Signs Of Exploitation
Anne: This is all exploitation on every front. As you know, all of our listeners are in relationships with men who use exploitative media, lie, manipulate, narcissistically abuse, emotionally abuse, psychologically abuse, and coercion. Oh my word, that’s way too many things I just said. But they’re all dealing with that in their own homes.
Can you talk about the signs of exploitation? Like there might be a listener who doesn’t know she’s being exploited.
Anne B.: Yeah, so some signs of exploitation can be changes in someone’s appearance. Their grades are slipping, some of their physical features. Just to tie it in to your listeners, especially, you know. I worked with victims of violence against women, as well as our organization called the Just Ask Prevention Project. It’s so important to ask people.
It started because there was a victim trafficked for three years. Her grades were slipping, her appearance had changed. She was in counseling because of it. She was seeing doctors, you know, people were addressing it, but they were addressing all the signs, all the symptoms. And I’m sure your listeners can relate to that. You see things happen from the outside, and only the symptoms are addressed.
Anne B.: And so all these signs and symptoms are coming up. Your listeners here, in a friend or anyone. Just ask, just ask them, could your husband be using exploitative content? Is there anyone forcing you, is anyone coercing you? If you have a child specifically or someone younger, you can ask targeted questions about whether this is exploitation. This girl opens up as with the right questions.
But she was never asked the right questions. And I know for so many victims they will speak up, but they won’t speak up until the right questions are asked. And I know that sometimes, it’s hard to even ask your husband these questions, because I mean, do we want to know?
Anne: Well, but he’ll also lie to you. So asking him’s not really gonna help. So if you say, hey, are you filming me and then putting it on the internet for money? He’s not gonna say yes. That is the same with abuse. People don’t realize they’re abused, and then when someone asks them some specific questions or helpful questions. Then you can help them see it. We can assume that many trafficking victims don’t actually realize they’re being trafficked.
And help them by asking questions, or maybe by educating them a little bit. Which is hard to do. I realize that it feels like, oh wait, this is none of my business. I ask that person, is someone forcing you to do something that makes you feel uncomfortable? From personal experience, having asked people some very difficult questions, like oh, is your husband raping you?
Encouraging Victims To Speak Up
Anne: It has been amazing how well it has gone. And I know that sounds crazy. And if it doesn’t go well, at least you did what you could to help that person. I’m always a fan of people who out of compassion and care for people do their best to help. And I think people can see that, and I hope they can. And if they get mad, they get mad, but at least you tried. That’s my opinion.
Anne B.: Absolutely, I agree at the core we all want to be known. And we’ve even talked to women who lead ministries or are leaders in other capacities. I’ve talked to men who are leaders at church. And I think one of the biggest things is not just to address the signs and symptoms, but also to dive deep. And say, “Have you considered maybe your partner exploits you?” Then going there with that victim. You know, maybe she thinks it, but no one’s actually asked her.
They’ve just said to her, “Hey, why don’t you go into counseling?” or “Why don’t you go to a doctor and take some medication if you’ve got some anxiety?” But she feels something’s wrong, and she’s not addressing it. She has this strong sense, but she needs the courage of someone else to come there and ask those pointed questions.
Because I think those pointed questions give people courage. They think about things. They’ve probably wondered themselves and never had the courage to go there.
Anne: Or maybe I must just be crazy. My husband’s fine, nice, and we go to church. He always initiates family prayer. I’m just being crazy.
Recognizing Exploitation In Marriage
Anne B.: I have a friend. This woman had gone all over speaking and wasn’t hiding what was going on with her husband. And she tells this pastor behind the scenes about what is going on. The man said to her, “Have you considered this is abuse?” And she initially said, “Oh no, no.”
But it takes that first person to say, “Have you considered this could be abuse, have you considered this could be exploitation?”
Anne: And I love you, dear listeners, which is why I’m asking these hard questions and asking you to ask these hard questions. Hoping that we’ll all make our way to safety together as a healthy army of women, which is exciting to me. It’s exciting that more and more women are becoming educated about these issues of exploitation and can teach their children and talk to their friends, because that’s what’s gonna get us out of this mess.
Anne B. I appreciate you coming on today’s episode. You have such a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much.
When Your Husband Uses Spiritual Abuse – Coach Sharon’s Story
Apr 16, 2024
If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing spiritual abuse, Sharon shares how her husband’s spiritual abuse affected her. Although spiritual abuse can be subtle, sometimes it can be extremely intense.
Anne: I’ve invited Coach Sharon, part of our BTR coaching team to come on today’s episode. Sharon and I have been sharing our innermost feelings about the work that we do. How it really feels so urgent to share the truth with women about spiritual abuse and what they may be facing. Welcome, Sharon.
Both of us have gone through quite a lot lately, and sometimes when we’re faced with this level of evil, really. I mean oppression and people really trying to harm other people, it gets a little overwhelming at times. As we share today, I want all of you to know that everyone is always welcome here.
We are interfaith no matter what religion you’re a part of, and no matter if you don’t have a religion, you are welcome here. Sharon and I are going to be sharing from our faith perspective today. This is our own personal experience, not necessarily to proselytize to you.
We hope that you find it helpful and just wanted to let you know that. Again, everybody’s welcome. One of the things Sharon and I talk about is that bringing the light in the light of our savior, Jesus Christ.
Well, Sharon and I are Christians, helps us do this work and sort of push out the darkness when we’re feeling overwhelmed. Sharon, in your experience being a BTR coach, she facilitates BTR Group Sessions as well as BTR Individual Sessions.
Emphasis On Interfaith Inclusivity When Talking About Spiritual Abuse
As you have the opportunity every day to help women. They’re in the darkness, they don’t really know what’s going on. Can you talk about that and how that feels?
Coach Sharon: Yeah, coming into light is important. I mean, when you’re living in darkness and you don’t know the truth, it’s a difficult place to be. When you don’t know what the truth is, when you don’t know what the diagnosis is, when you don’t know what the problem is.
Then you don’t know how to keep yourself safe. You need to know what the truth is in order to come to a place of safety. Women come into BTR not knowing what truth is, feeling like their truth, even though there’s something on the inside, I think you call it the internal warning system, that internal navigator, it will direct you.
https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I
It will show you that there’s something going on. But knowing to trust that internal truth is difficult, especially when you don’t have words for it, when you don’t know how to define it, when there’s been no basis forever making you aware that there could even be evil.
You feel crazy, you feel like this is just me. I must be alone. There must be something wrong with me. A lot of women come into BTR feeling that way, like I’m just in the dark and there’s no light. It takes so long to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse. It’s hard to navigate in darkness. It’s hard to perform any task.
The Impact Of Light & Truth In Healing From Spiritual Abuse
Well, if you’re doing it in darkness. BTR turns a light on and exposes abuse. It exposes emotional harm and psychological harm and spiritual harm and so forth, and helps women to get to a place where they can actually get safe. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, you referenced that darkness in terms of living in that dark space, the workshop calls it the shadow and living in that shadow or living in that dark place or that cave.
It’s a hopeless existence. So coming into light, coming into truth helps you to bring your life into a better place.
I was thinking about that scripture that says men prefer darkness rather than light because their ways are evil. Now, I mean, I don’t think the Bible was specifically just referring to men, but at the same token, the principle is true. Darkness is the preferred way because evil can live in darkness, right?
There’s no evil in light where there’s light, there’s truth, and truth comes in a variety of different forms. But if we don’t expose ourselves to truth, then we stay in darkness.
For example, I think in scripture, but I was thinking about the text that says, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. But if you don’t access truth, financial truth or physical truth in terms of nutritional truth or there’s lots of different truth that we need to expose ourselves to, but my people perish for a lack of knowledge.
Truth Overcomes The Effects Of Spiritual Abuse
If you don’t have the knowledge, then you don’t have the truth. If you don’t have the truth, then you don’t have safety. So coming into truth is really important.
Anne: For women of faith. Truth is important in general, just like in their bones. My guess is truth is important to agnostics and atheists as well. Logic or just reality. I think for all of us, truth is important for women of faith. When we think about truth coming from God maybe or truth coming from scripture or something. It’s so important to interpret for yourself what the Bible says about abuse.
Can you talk about how so many abusers twist that so that it keeps the victims in the dark? That they are trying to stay married after infidelity and not tell the truth. They weaponize victims true desire to know truth or to know God in order to exploit them or harm them. It gets really confusing, I think for women to think like, well, I went to scripture or I went to my faith leader to get help.
It didn’t really help me and I was truly seeking help. It’s not because the word in and of itself is inaccurate or the word in and of itself is harmful, but it’s because so many of the evil interpretations of it or the evil applications of it have harmed victims. Can you talk about that for a bit?
Coach Sharon: Yeah. I love that you say that. That was my experience when you consider scripture was firmly rooted in my heart as a child. I grew up knowing that scripture was good. It was how we were taught to live our life.
The Power & Misinterpretation Of Scripture
Scripture being firmly rooted in my heart root, my thoughts governed my actions. It’s how I lived my life, but it cultivated not abuse, but a soil for faith like that foundation created in my life, a rich soil that was faith.
I had something planted in that good soil with something that was evil, it grew mindsets and strongholds and things in my life that God never intended to be there.
It’s not that the word was bad, the word was always good, the teaching was always good, but the seed was a negative seed. It produced negativity in my life opposed to what God intended to be able to grow in that part of my life.
I heard this quote I want to read. Can I read this really quickly? Yeah. It says the word is God and God is his word. The word of God, scripture is God. It’s who He’s, and God is his word. It’s his character. We come to know God by what is read in the Word, and if the word is poorly translated, then God is poorly known.
So it’s just we come to know who God is by his word. I mean, think about everything the Bible says in terms of God’s word. What does the Bible say about divorce?
Weaponizing Faith Against Victims
He said his word over everything. Proverbs says that a good name is of great riches and he has exalted his word over everything. So the word is who God is, right? So if you have a word that is poorly translated, then God can’t be correctly known.
I lost God when I said I do. I didn’t have a God because the God that was being portrayed to me was one where there was classes and I was in the second class seat.
In this new position that I was in, I didn’t have a voice in this space. I was expendable in this space. My thoughts, my feelings, my value were all secondary in this space. It made me feel as if I had no God, which was very damaging in terms of my life because it was the foundation in my faith. Those words can be really detrimental in terms of how women process.
Anne: Can you share what you thought back then? Because guessing back then you didn’t think, God doesn’t love me, I’m a second class citizen. I’m guessing that that type of articulated thought wasn’t there. Were there ways that you kind of did some mental gymnastics to kind of be in that space?
Coach Sharon: Yeah, so my thought process was this was part of the cross. This was suffering. It was the way of suffering. We’ve been called to suffer and sometimes suffering and marriage is what God calls us to, that we’re called to a life of suffering.
Mental Gymnastics In Spiritual Abuse
The suffering wasn’t extensive. It wasn’t like anyone was abusing me, especially since I had no definition of what abuse was. So this was just godly sorrow. This was my cross. That’s that song. Must Jesus bear the cross alone and all the world go free?
No, there’s a cross for everyone and there’s a cross. For me, that was my cross. I would submit to things that I knew were harmful and that were wrong, but I would justify them. This is what God wants for me, and I can show him my love through my obedience, through me not complaining, by me, forgiving by me overlooking.
In that I’m showing God my love. Because there are so many scriptures that speak to the truth of being obedient, which I think is a godly principle, is being obedient. Because everything is not rightly divided, when we are talking about scripture, we’ll take one scripture and that’s it.
Wives are to obey their husband in all things, and that covers everything. There’s never any more dialogue or anything that goes into unpacking that. Then those things can be used as a weapon against women to silence them or to make them believe that this is correct.
Anne: At the time when you silenced your own internal warning system, God’s telling you something’s not quite right here. You’re feeling it. Well, I want to say he’s kind of reframing it for you, right? Do you feel like the abuser reframed it in terms of this is your suffering, or because you had no other context for it and it wasn’t your fault, right?
The Challenge Of Recognizing Spiritual Abuse
Because you hadn’t been educated about abuse, the light had not been shined on it. Do you think you were the one that reframed it? Sorry, I don’t mean to blame the victim in that sense. None of it was your fault, but I’m just trying to figure out how we can help other women who might be grappling with this.
Women who are reframing it in a way because they have no light, they have no ability to reframe it any other way because there isn’t any other context for it. Do you know what I mean?
Coach Sharon: Absolutely. I think it was a combination of things. I mean, it was me preferring to stay in what was comfortable. It was easier. It was familiar. I wanted it with all of my being. It was easier for me to redefine it, reframe it, call it something different.
Then I didn’t have to move. It allowed me to stay where I was comfortable, even when I knew that there were things that there’s no way when I would think about concepts of grace. Isn’t God a God of grace, of compassion, of love? How are you reasoning this out? It was just like, ah, you can find a way.
You can find way to make anything fit if you really wanted to. I think a lot of it was me refining it and not wanting to really see it for what it was. Of course, I think that my husband at the time wanted me to believe that as well.
I think that it served a purpose for him, for me to believe that I was rebellious.
Internal Conflicts & Rationalization
That this was really me, that it was all me. He played a part in that, but I also just believe that evil is always there. Let’s take away the chuck. Let’s take away Sharon.
I think that there’s always that internal evil trying to speak voices that influence us to go in the wrong direction. I don’t think that that is always, it can come through the voice of a person, but I think that evil is always right there. You’re not good enough. You’re not this, you can’t do it. God doesn’t love you.
Those evil voices are always there. So I think it was a combination of things all working together as a perfect storm to keep me stuck.
Anne: It’s interesting when you said I was comfortable, I was stuck. Guess what else it came from? You are really, really good character and your pure nature, because the thing you really wanted wasn’t to be comfortable in abuse, but the thing you really wanted was a peaceful family.
It was coming from this place of goodness, and I think all victims who are trying to figure this out. It’s not like we hear every day victims being like, oh, my family and marriage doesn’t matter to me. I don’t care. I’m just comfortable here. I like my pillow and I really like my couch, so I’m not doing anything.
No, no, no, no, no. That’s not where they’re coming from. They’re like, this is hard and I’m suffering, but my family is important to me. The unity that I feel, the kind of life that I want is a life of wholeness and goodness, and I want to get there with my family.
Desire For Family Unity & Spiritual Abuse
Sorry, I’m not trying to invalidate what you said, but I know you really well. I’m just thinking of comfort. I don’t know if that is the right way to describe it.
Coach Sharon: I wanted my marriage. It’s just like I had a vision for what my life was supposed to look like in terms of my family and so forth. When I say comfort, I’m not talking about the luxuries of life. I’m talking about the purpose of life. I’m talking about what I gave myself to and believed in.
I wanted, wanted to hold on to what I felt like my destiny was, and my destiny was connected to a unit. It was connected to a person. When I say the person, I’m talking about my family.
Anne: Do you mean like the church because he was a pastor.
Coach Sharon: Just metaphorically my family, but yes, the church as well. I felt committed to what will this look like to others? How will this harm others? What will this mean if I walk away from this in terms of the people that will be hurt to see that this has happened when we’re supposed to be something that represents what a good marriage is supposed to look like?
What will that mean to them? So all of that played a part with me staying and feeling like, no, I need to try to do this. It was an uphill battle, and I begged God to change circumstances that just never changed.
Shattered Dreams & Seeking Spiritual Safety
I knew at some point, there’s no way this will ever get better, because there was no enlightenment.
I am in no way stating that I didn’t have a role in the harm that was played in it. I did, but it wasn’t a systematic denial of personhood. It wasn’t like I wasn’t allowing a person to be a person, that there was a continual determination to not allow a person to be heard.
Or to have an opinion in so many different areas where they stopped having the ability to weigh in or be a part of their own life. To not have the ability to weigh in on your own life is to rob you of your identity. Faith doesn’t even do that. God gives you the ability to choose even when the choice is a bad choice.
I set before you life and death. No, don’t set anything before me. Just give me the good thing. You can choose me or you can choose not to choose me. No, just make me choose you. He gives us the gift of choice.
When that’s taken from us in a relationship where you can’t choose what you want to do or to have a voice in your parenting or to make a choice about what you like or dislike, what’s important to you, your values, that’s taken away your personhood, and that’s not a holy thing.
How Spiritual Abuse Effects Choice
Anne: In my experience, that never occurred where I felt like my personhood was taken from me or that I didn’t have a say. I always felt like I for sure had a say. What I felt like was that I couldn’t do anything. It doesn’t matter. I can’t make progress in my own life.
The things I wanted to do, I could not accomplish. I was saying them out loud. I was attempting to do it, but it was like I had an anchor that was dragging me. But then the other issue is after I separated and after I got to safety, I started seeing all of the ways that my person had actually been taken from me.
Even though I didn’t realize it at the time I was in the dark. There were so many things that I had the incorrect information or knew what was going on, I would’ve made a different decision.
Because I had been kept from that information on purpose, he had purposefully withheld it from me. That in and of itself, even if women feel like, oh yeah, I get to have a say. Yeah, I share my opinion even if they feel like that, if they don’t know what’s really going on.
They’re saying that based on a foundation of just nothingness because they think that they have a say because they’re talking, because they’re making decisions based on what they know. But because there’s this huge lie that they don’t know about that really takes away their agency, it takes away their ability to self govern.
Manipulation & Withheld Information Are Part of Spiritual Abuse
It takes away that bodily autonomy that you’re talking about, and that makes me really sad. There’s victims in both situations. Ones who feel like I have no say, I have no voice, and then others who feel like they do, but they don’t realize that their foundation that their voice is coming from is based on a lie.
Because they might tell somebody, oh, yeah, I use my voice and I tell my husband all the time, Hey, I don’t want you to do that. He’s like, okay, no problem. But you didn’t know that he’s sleeping with prostitutes or you didn’t know that he’s been lying to you about the bank account.
Coach Sharon: Going back to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, I think you call it the cupcake, right? So it’s that belief that you actually have something that you’re happy to have it, that you’re rubbing on your face, but it’s not reality. It’s really not reality.
You think that it is and you’re so happy to have it, but it’s not what you think it is. It’s actually the shadow. Going back to that principle again, it’s really important for it to be authentic for that space to be authentic. The experience is different from relationship to relationship, and that’s what I like about BTR.
Though we are all at different places in terms of how we came to be where we are, the experiences may be different in terms of the day-to-day. The abuse, the control, all of those emotional, psychological behaviors that keep us stuck, that’s where the similarities lie.
Understanding Coercive Control In Spiritual Abuse
I mean, for some women, it is that coercive control, whereas for me, it was very over. It was, no, you can’t have this.
At the end of the day, the harm is still the harm. Whatever they experience, the harm is still the same.
Anne: Absolutely. I think the intent is still the same, even if it looks a little bit different from one victim’s experience to another’s, the intent of the abuser is the same. It is to control the narrative. To exploit and to manipulate the situation to get what they want without you figuring out.
Wait a minute, this isn’t good for me. I think they know. I mean, I don’t know for sure, but they always try to spin it. This will be good for us. It’s not that way. It is not good for you. I think they probably know it’s not good for you, and that’s why they need to manipulate you to do it.
Because if it was good for you, they’d be like, Hey, let’s both eat a salad for lunch. Great. I’ll make the salad for you. Cool. Instead, if he’s like, I don’t want to make the salad and I know it would be good for me. I know that she’s allergic to lettuce, but I’m still going to make her make the salad and eat it because it’s good for me, even if it’s bad for her.
Coach Sharon: I remember this from Patricia Evans when she talks about how a person will root themselves in another person. They’ll kind of their reality in somebody else, and their truth becomes your truth because you cease to be a person. You become an extension of them.
The Universal Patterns In Spiritual Abuse
They really know when they say, this is good for us, I’ve actually heard that said, I know what’s good for us. There is this belief that we’re now one, so my thoughts, my feelings, what I’m experiencing is your experience.
I kind of sit there like, huh, how is that possible? Really confused as to how that could be believed, but there really seemed to be a belief that you’re an extension of them. Over a period of time, you can lose the ability to be able to give voice right in your life because you’re an extension of that person. It’s amazing how that can just manifest itself in so many different weird ways
Anne: For women who don’t want to lose their faith. In the face of spiritual abuse like this, there are many women who are spiritually abused through scripture or through church. They try to get help from their pastor or their clergy, and it’s just so traumatizing that they lose their faith. Women don’t realise that some clergy don’t know how to help women with this and some have been accused of clergy misconduct.
They feel good about it. Some of them feel more free than they’ve ever felt, and they feel like this feels good to me. For those people, that’s great. However, you feel better and wherever you are going, we support you here.
Spiritual Abuse: Betrayal & Loss Of Faith
This isn’t about that, but I do want to talk about women who don’t want to lose their faith, but they’re hanging on by a thread because of all the spiritual abuse. It angers me that something that could be very comforting to them.
Because I’m Christian, I believe Christ can heal them, right? Christ can come and save you and help you heal from spiritual abuse. So for the women who want to go there, but they just feel so traumatized.
Retaining Faith Despite Spiritual Abuse
Everyone is welcome here. So if you’re agnostic or atheist or you’re a different faith, then Sharon and I, you are welcome. We’re just sharing from our own experience, hopefully something that we share will be helpful to you.
Women who don’t want to lose their faith, but they’re hanging on by a thread because of all the spiritual abuse. It angers me that something that could be very comforting to them and also because I’m Christian, I believe Christ can heal them.
Christ can come and save you and help you. So for the women who want to go there, but they just feel so traumatized, what are your thoughts for them?
Fresh Perspectives After Spiritual Abuse
Sharon: Stay curious. It’s just like going back to the scriptures again. Read the scriptures through fresh eyes. Throw out everything you thought you knew and rebuild yourself with the power inside you. That may mean that everything is ripped away so that it can be rebuilt better.
I remember God speaking to my heart, not audibly, but saying, I’m going to take everything away from you so that you can see that you had nothing, so that I can give you everything. Everything had to be stripped away. Everything that I thought I knew about God, about salvation, about my faith.
I learned so much in the hardest season of my life, discovering who God is personally—not who someone told me he was, or what I thought he was, or what I sang about, or what I learned.
No, this was what I experienced. I got to learn that brand spanking, and new. I had to be curious and I had to determine I’m not going to let go. I’m not going to give up. I’m going to hold on and allow God to find me. I couldn’t find him. I was just like, I’m lost.
I’m right here. I don’t know where you are or how to get to you.
Personal Growth Through Spiritual Challenges
This is bad, but I just reached my arms up like, dad, find me. Find me. Hey, find me. He found me. We give so much to being strong. There’s so much power in being weak and I learned how to be weak and say, Hey, I need you to look for me. In that weakness, I found strength. I really found him. Be curious also, community. Have a good community.
If the community you have is not a community that is validating the truth, keep looking for a community. There’s a community out there. The community finds truth, and while some institutions have failed, many good ones exist.
I still believe in the church. I still believe in good women and men of God who carry light, love, validate, and support women. Many of them have supported me. I just had to get over the spiritual abuse.
Don’t give that up in terms of your pursuit of your faith with all that has been lost. Don’t give that up too. I mean with all that has been taken, hold on to what’s meaningful to you. You have to hold on, and my faith wasn’t up for grabs me and God was going to go through the trenches, but that was not an option for me to let go.
I knew at the point that I let go. My life was over. BTR was a resource that God used to save me. In my mind, it was God’s way of bringing truth to my life, but God brought that truth to my life. If I were X him out, then that resource would not have been made available.
The Importance Of Supportive Community
He gave it to me. But you can be curious. There’s so much more love that God has for us than what is sometimes displayed in religion. He’s so loving and so compassionate in terms of his willingness to find us right where we are. All this work of trying to get to him and get perfect and get this and be enough. I can’t live without you is enough
Anne: For me, it was the same way. There was no option for me to decide that faith wasn’t for me. That was not an option for me. I remember it was probably about a nine month period where I could not feel comforted, I would pray, but I couldn’t hear him.
I would pray, but I couldn’t feel him. It felt so terrible and I just kept trying. I kept reading my scriptures and then sometimes I’d talk to clergy. They’d make me feel worse, so I’m not doing that. I believe in God. I don’t believe in you. This dude that was telling me this wackadoodle stuff that I was like, no, but that period for me was really, really hard and I wouldn’t say it ended with a vision or something.
It wasn’t like at the end of this nine months, suddenly it parted. God came down and was like, oh, I love you.
When You Can’t Feel God’s Presence
I’ve been here the whole time. No, that didn’t happen either. But there was at some point, and I don’t really know when that was when I started feeling comforted again, when I started being able to feel his spirit with me. It was such a dark time and remembering that gives me, it’s just so creepy.
One of the things that I thought of as I was looking back on that time was that my feeling was that God was there. He was trying to get to me, but my abuser kept swatting him away. My abuser kept oppressing me. He kept saying things that weren’t true and frankly, I’ve felt like that recently as well. I’ve started feeling God’s comfort. Spiritual abuse is real.
Everything is going to be all right and then there’s some action on someone else’s part through no fault of my own. Then someone else’s action is like swatting the blessings away a little bit or swatting that comfort away and hit after hit after hit. At least with the abuser, he just kept knocking me down.
I started to kind of reframe it in that God is here and he is with me and he’s protecting me, but of course I’m going to feel terrible and it’s hard to feel comforted when you’re being metaphorically knocked down all the time.
Dealing With Spiritual Abuse & Its Implications On Faith
Sharon: Really, it’s a war, this warfare to reclaim your identity. It’s a struggle and a war that I think that only sheroes in our community really know the hell that you have to fight to bring yourself back from. All the different layers pain that you’re now in the process of trying to figure out. How do I even get myself to a place of healing? It’s turmoil on a lot of different levels, but recapturing that essence.
It is not a journey that you undertake by yourself. There’s help for us. I don’t understand what broke or when the reality of God’s love for me came back or when I was able to pray. The spiritual abuse was so intense. That was horrific. Every prayer would take 25 minutes to get out. I kept restarting it, but for whatever evil kept trying to block me.
The Battle To Reclaim Identity After Spiritual Abuse
I’m glad you kept going. I’m glad that you stayed in that fight and even now that staying in the fight. I know it’s not easy being on the front lines of this battle and you’re on the front lines doing this every day and no one knows what it takes to be on the front line.
It’s easy to click on a podcast or to listen to a workshop and appreciate it and go away. There was no sacrifice, but someone has to pay a sacrifice, a price for everything that someone else enjoys. A lot of us understand that you’ve paid a great price to be able to bring this content and I really thank you.
Anne: Thank you. It’s really interesting with The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, I look at it now, it’s incredible. I almost feel like it just appeared out of thin air. I forget how hard I worked for years to get it to the point where it is. All the study I did, there was a time when the strategies in the workshop were in beta.
I had used them to deliver myself and my own children, but I wasn’t sure that I could duplicate it. I didn’t know, and so I worked with other victims to see, does this actually work? Can we apply it? And as I worked with other victims applying these strategies, they were like, holy cow, this works.
Strategies To Overcome Spiritual Abuse
Helping them get to safety was also another process. It took a while. I’ve seen stuff floating around on social media and it doesn’t make me smile, but I just think, wow, do they not understand it at all?
Because it’ll say, six steps to a better marriage, take this six part workshop and you’ll be great. In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, I’m like, this will be very hard. It’s not good marketing because I’m never like, oh, this is the solution to all your problems.
Just do this and you’ll be happy and everything will be good. I’m like, no, no, no. These strategies work, but employing them and experimenting with them. When I mean experimenting, I don’t mean that they’re experimental because I already did all those experiments to duplicate it. The principles absolutely do work, but when women find it and it’s new to them, then these principles are new to them.
The experiment isn’t the principles themselves. The experiment is how do I apply these in a way that works for me in a way that takes me to safety, and that’s a process.
It’s just not like any other type of marketing where it’s like, this will solve all your problems. These principles are good, true principles. They will help you. We will also help you on that path, but this journey is difficult and we will walk with you through it.
Anne’s Goal To Reach Other Women
I think also comparing it to therapy, which is really interesting, or at least couple therapy or a addiction recovery program.
Well, the problem there is the therapist doesn’t know that the abuser’s manipulating the therapist. No matter how much work you put in, it’s not a correct principle to be basing all of the work on.
You said the work has to be based on truth. So when it comes to addiction, recovery or couple therapy, if there is not a foundation of truth there, it’s not going to work. In The workshop the principles are going to work no matter what.
If you take the workshop, you may end up going down the path where you separate, you may stay married. Regardless, you can see more clearly what’s happening. You will be able to make decisions based on reality rather than this manipulated, contrived, false narrative that they’re trying to tell you in order to exploit you.
Sharon: Yes, because The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop identifies the diagnosis, the problem, right? Therefore you get the right results. If you don’t start at the right place, then you get to the wrong destination. I think that what makes it powerful in terms of the resources that you’ve made available is you understand what the issue is.
Focusing On Real Issues
The issue is spiritual abuse. If you start at the right place, not an issue of forgiveness, not addiction. If you start at the wrong place, you wind up at the wrong destination. Because you are able to rightly determine this is what the real issue is.
This is the stuff of real life that you’ve actually lived and now take in your work and put it in these different tools and forms to now help other women get to where they need to be.
The expansion of it I think is wonderful. I started with the podcast. Those podcasts saved my life. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop wasn’t available back then.
Then the podcast was my lifeline to greater understanding, and then as you built upon those things. I now had more tools and greater tools to equip myself and they worked. I can see it in how I remember communicating.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Helped Heal Me From Spiritual Abuse
Anne: Getting to safety when an abuser does not want you to is never going to be easy ever. I’ve worked with victims now for over 10 years, and all of the coaches who coach at BTR have been through it themselves and they’ve worked with hundreds of victims, so now we can see the patterns.
Even though the road is going to be difficult, the BTR podcast and The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop and the meditations in there we have now, help create peace so much more quickly.
The sad thing is, and therapists won’t tell you this, and I don’t think that you’ll get this anywhere else. The sad thing is even though it makes it easier, it’s still going to be hard. Thank goodness it makes it easier because it’s so hard. It’s painful. It’s difficult on so many levels, legal levels, emotional levels, physical levels.
Am I going to be able to eat? Am I going to have a roof over my head? There’s just so many layers of danger. I think people just don’t want people to know either that or alternatively they want to say something like, well, it’s just too emotionally dangerous or It’s going to be too hard, so don’t get to safety.
Just give up. For women who are like, wow, Ann, this isn’t very motivating. You’re telling me it’s going to be so hard. We want to say to them it’s worth it, but what would you say to them. Sharon women who were thinking, oh, wait. It’s going to be really hard. Then maybe I don’t want to do this.
Difficulty In Achieving Emotional Safety After Leaving Abuse
Sharon: Yeah. I would say life is hard. The life that I lived was a hard life. It was hard. I mean, life doesn’t get easier. We get stronger and circumstances of abuse, when there’s abuse, when there’s harm, it doesn’t go away.
You delay it, and I wasted a lot of time trying to delay what ultimately the direction I had to go in anyway. I lost so much waiting for something to happen that was never going to happen. For something to come, that never came from waiting for a deliverance that was quite frankly just not going to happen.
I was going to say, hold on. It did happen. You were delivered. This is the truth. Your wife is for you. She’s trying to assist you. She sees something you don’t see.
There are blind spots that you need to pay attention to. I thought that there was going to be some kind of divine intervention that was going to make all that clear so that the road ahead there could be unity. So I waited for that, not realizing that there’s choice, that it comes down to what you choose to believe in, what you choose to deal with, and I waited and I wasted.
The Personal Cost Of Waiting for Someone To Save You
I wouldn’t necessarily say wasted because there were lessons that I learned and things that came out of that in terms of experiences with my kids and so forth. The trauma that was suffered as a result of me waiting is something that scarred me deeply. I can’t get those years back.
I can’t get that time back in terms of my life, and it would’ve been better for me to just embrace the hard. Life comes with hardship, but we can do hard things. I say that in group, you can do hard things. Life requires for us to do things that are hard, but we can still move forward.
Anne: It reminds me of the Israelites, right? They prayed for deliverance and Moses came and Pharaoh was like, yeah, you can go in our time. We can go at any time the laws of our country, the laws of our society, everyone is like, yeah, you can go.
I guess is what I’m saying. We don’t have to wait for Pharaoh to give us permission, but at that point, the Israelites had to pick up their stuff. They had to get their bags and all their animals or whatever they needed, and they had to stand up and walk out of there, and same thing when it came to the Red Sea.
Deliverance From Spiritual Abuse
They get backed up against the Red Sea, Moses parts, the Red Sea, and then what do they have to do? They have to walk through it. There was no point in this deliverance, and I love the story of Moses. I went to Jerusalem and studied deliverance. I saw with my own eyes the landscape and stood on Mount Nebo and looked down at the promised Land and it helped me build the workshop.
That’s where I got the strategies I used to deliver myself and my own children from abuse. It really just struck me that there is no point in that story of deliverance, not one where God picks them up off the ground and physically moves them.
Every single time they have to leave Pharaoh’s land and they have to cross the Red Sea, and then they have to wander around in the wilderness. Then they wait at Mount Nebo and then they have to actually go down into the promised land.
They have to walk down there. There’s no part in that story where they don’t have to work, where they don’t have to move, and I know a lot of women are praying for a lot of different things. One of the most common ones, and I’m going to say it out loud here and it’s okay, everyone can take a gasp that I said out loud.
Accepting The Hardship Of New Beginnings
I know so many of us think can he just get hit by a bus? Let’s get divine intervention to stop him? It is very rare that they get hit by buses. If ever in the story of deliverance with the Israelites, when they’re at the Red Sea. They start going through and that pillar is stopping Pharaoh’s army from going through. Then at a certain point the water does fall on them and kill them, so I guess in that story, they are killed by the Red Sea.
However, those Israelites are still wandering around in the wilderness. They have nothing to eat. They have to rely on manna, so it’s not like that solved all of their problems. There was not just one thing that happened that solved all the problems.
Sharon: Yes, it’s very similar to the Israelites coming out of Egypt in terms of the deliverance story, especially when you think about how they wanted to go back.
It’s just like sometimes coming out of the cave is painful. The way of life that you had is just like this was better than that because it’s a new life and going into something new. There’s going to be growing pains with anything new, with anything new.
Trusting God In The Journey To Heal From Spiritual Abuse
It’s hard in the beginning, but then you adjust to the hard. Just like everything when you’re first learning how to navigate it is difficult, and we shy away from hard, and the Israelites did too. They thought it was going to be easy and it’s nasty food and this is not familiar to us. We didn’t like this. We want to go back to Egypt.
Yet this was a better life for them, but they were not able to see it. Then because they weren’t able to see it and move forward. They stayed stagnant for a long time wandering in a place that God never wanted them because they refused to live in reality, this is where you are.
This is the circumstance right now. Trust me, trust me and move forward, and that can be a difficult place to be. I see that in group a lot. When women get this truth, they listen to podcasts, they come to group and it’s like, now what am I supposed to do? I don’t have the money, I don’t have a house.
I don’t know how to do this, I don’t have any answers, and I was there, but moving forward is sometimes moving forward with no answers. It’s trusting and believing the same God that gave you revelation, that D-Day that sometimes we don’t know or don’t need. You trust that the same God who brought you here will lead you to your promised land, and that act of faith, as you said, is hard.
What Do To If You Want To Heal From Spiritual Abuse
It sounds good on paper, I trust you, sounds good, but living this out, this is a whole nother type of situation. It’s not an easy thing
Anne: At BTR because we live in reality, we will be with you. We will hold your hand the entire time. We have resources that will bring you light and truth and correct principles and strategies. Based on those principles that will help you get to safety as quickly as humanly possible and make it easier than it would be without them, but it’s still going to be a hard road.
We can hold all of those truths at the same time because we know there aren’t any quick fixes. It worries me when people think, just get divorced and then your abuse problems go away.
They don’t realize that this is a life long-term problem that will continue post-divorce. Not to say you shouldn’t get divorced, but divorce does not solve your abuse problem. So you have to be strategic as you start making boundaries about what you decide because it’s going to be complex no matter what.
The Journey To Heal From Spiritual abuse
Sharon: Yeah. Well, Ann, can I ask you one question? What would you say in terms of being the author of all things BTR, where would you say it would be good for women to start in terms of their journey?
I know there were so many different roads into our community. Where do you feel like it would be a good place for women to start? Would it be with the workshops or the podcast or group or sessions? Can you just speak to that?
Anne: That’s an interesting question because everyone’s path is so different. The paths are all pointing towards safety. Women have listened to the podcast for years without using any of our services, and the podcast itself has gotten them where they needed to go.
They felt good and they felt supported in real life. They met a good friend that lived down their street who helped them through it. There are people who never heard the podcast, who came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group.
There are women who think, I don’t think I’m being abused. I don’t think this is for me. This seems kind of too extreme, and then a year later they think, oh, this is abuse.
Individual Paths To Emotional Safety
They’ll be like, this is the only place we’ll get what I’m going through. Some women start learning about abuse and listening to it, and they realize, I think it might be abuse. Now that I hear what abuse is, that isn’t what I’m experiencing.
I mean, that’s also a possibility. If someone’s listening right now and they’re like, where should I start? This seems so complicated. Listening to the podcast is a great start. BTR Group Sessions are a really good place because you can start listening to other people’s stories.
I’m a super introvert, so groups make me a little bit nervous, but I did go to group at the beginning of my journey and it helped me to hear other people and see myself in that and be like, oh, okay. This is what’s happening.
The workshop is also a really good place to start because it gives very foundational principles for where your journey is going to take you and also very practical things that you can do like now every day to get to safety. You can implement them immediately, and it gives really clear visuals for how to do that.
I think it’s the most clear thing in terms of what to do, so if you’re listening and you’re thinking, what do I do? I just need somebody to tell me what to do. If you’re thinking that, I would say The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop is the right place to go.
BTR Can Help You Heal From Spiritual Abuse
If you’re thinking, I know I’m being abused, I need support: BTR group. If you’re thinking, is this abuse? I’m not sure, then the podcast is a great place or even BTR Group Sessions is a great place to start figuring that out. I wish I could just say, everyone do this thing first.
That would be really cool, but everybody’s different and everybody comes in with a different set of expectations or a different desire about what they want to do. Some people come to BTR and they’re already divorced
They’re looking for safety tools. My main concern is the women who don’t know they’re being abused on the top of my mind with everything that we do here at BTR, I’m always thinking about them.
How can I help a woman who is being spiritually abused, who’s trying to read scripture, who is praying to figure out how to make my marriage better? She doesn’t know it’s abuse. How can I find her? She’s at the top of my mind because once people have access to our resources will help them through that process.
I’m really happy that we have the tools for them, but every day I wake up and I think there’s somebody out there that doesn’t know there’s someone out there who thinks it’s her fault. There’s someone out there who thinks that she’s just ugly and worthless and that’s why her husband doesn’t love her, and that is not true.
Healing From Spiritual Abuse Takes Community Support
If that’s you, you are beautiful. You are powerful, and you are so important. You’re important to God. You’re important to me, and I don’t want you to be blaming yourself or to feel bad for absolutely no reason, and for some ridiculous reason.
Everyone you’re going to for help, therapist, clergy, whatever, if they’re telling you it’s your fault because everyone is just in this soup of abuse. I hope to be a light to you, I want to find you. Whether you use our services or not, I don’t care.
I just want you to know that I care and I believe God cares. So if you’re listening and you feel the same way that I do, please share our information with people. Please get the word out about the podcast because that’s it. So when you ask that, I’m like, I don’t know how they’re going to utilize our services.
I’m grateful that they’re all available to people, but my main concern is, can I get to you? How can I find you in your hour of need? Especially women who are praying for it, and I hear stories all the time of women who are praying and they’ve been praying for years.
Then one day they do an internet search or they find something on social media, and that’s how they get to us. I’m so grateful they found us, whether a friend shared something or they typed in a search and an article popped up. I thank God they got here.
Coach Sharon Is Here To Support You
Sharon: Yeah, I am too. I’m glad that we have so many different points of entries and for all the work that you do to make sure that we’re loved so well. Thank you so much, Anne. It was such a pleasure being here and talking with you today.
Anne: Thank you, coach Sharon, and thank you for being online available to support women as they’re going through this. Every day. You do several group sessions and you’re available for individual sessions to help women. Thank you.
The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma
Apr 09, 2024
The picture book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is the best way to explain betrayal trauma to someone who doesn’t quite “get it”.
If you’re feeling ignored, dismissed, and blamed for your husband’s infidelity, you’re not alone.
Trauma Mama Husband Drama Is The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma
The term “betrayal trauma” is not knows or misunderstood in many circles. Anne knows this and wanted to help women give a name to the mental, physical, and emotional symptoms that women suffer when their partners abuse them through betrayal. Using Trauma Mama, Husband Dramato understand and give a voice to the emotions they are experiencing may be helpful to victims of betrayal trauma.
Trauma Mama, Husband Drama Uses Illustration When Words Don’t Work
Victims of betrayal know that the devastation of betrayal can surpass any attempt at verbal description. When words are too hard, illustrations can help victims process pain.
It was a lot harder than I thought to illustrate some of these concepts visually. One of the pictures is of Dad, and it’s this vortex of abuse where sometimes he’s sweet and sometimes he’s on a rampage. We were trying to figure out how to do that, and it was a difficult concept. A friend of mine said, ‘What about a tornado?’ so we did a tornado.
Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Furthermore, by making it a picture book, Anne made it easier for women in trauma to understand its contents and more accessible to clergy, family, and friends who might be less inclined to read a lengthy book about abuse.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Empowers Victims Of Betrayal
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we will never stop finding new ways to help victims of betrayal find safety and healing. We know that women need a safe space to process their trauma, share their stories, ask questions, and make connections with other victims who get it. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets daily in multiple time zones, offering victims the validation, support, and compassion they need. Join today.
Transcript: The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma
Anne: So today, a member of our community, I’ll call Jenna is with me. She follows me on Instagram, where we interact quite a bit. She’s amazing, I’m so grateful for her. Welcome.
Jenna: Hi Anne, thanks for having me.
Anne: I wrote the book Trauma Mama Husband Drama, because all the abuse books are thick, big old books. And if you hand somebody, one of these books, like clergy or a therapist, or your mom. It’s so overwhelming. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is very simple.
Jenna: I first saw the cover, and the illustrations are beautiful. And of course, I read the title Trauma Mama Husband Drama. I kind of chuckled to myself, because I’ve read the Llama Mama, Pajama, whatever that book is, to my son a million times.
And I liked the simplicity of the text, but also the accuracy of everything. I felt like it portrayed exactly how I felt in my experience of betrayal trauma. I felt like it was a clear explanation for going through how infidelity and betrayal trauma felt as the wife of an addict.
Traditional Abuse Books Are Not The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma
Anne: So because I interact with thousands of women on Facebook and Instagram, YouTube and Tik TOK, women share their stories with me. They also obviously come on the podcast to share their stories. So I hear thousands of women’s stories. I continue to hear new stories every day.
So I have both a very broad overview of what it’s like to go through betrayal trauma, and then I understand it on a very specific intimate level because I went through it. But then I also hear all the details of other women’s stories. So my goal for this book was to explain betrayal trauma to somebody who might not understand it.
Jenna: Absolutely, because you interact with so many women every day, you hear the stories of women with so many experiences and backgrounds. And I felt like this book captured the themes. I know that women with different experiences can still relate, even though the stories themselves can be so different. There’s so much overlap.
Anne: So I gave one of those big old abuse books that explains all the details about abuse to my ecclesiastical leader. And my big chunky non-fiction book will be coming out soon.
And I love reading books about abuse, and I love writing books about abuse, and I want everyone to read my non-fiction book. But I find that people who haven’t been through it aren’t like super excited to spend 10 hours reading a big nonfiction book about abuse.
Trauma Momma Husband Drama Is The Best Way To Explain Betayal Trauma, It’s Short & Simple
Anne: This book is so different, because it’s immediately inviting. You want to open it up and look at the pages. And I hope women will want to purchase multiple copies for their clergy, maybe for their therapists, maybe their local library. Because I think a book like this that actually illustrates the emotions with pictures. Is so much more motivating for people to read than a 400 page nonfiction abuse book.
Jenna: I definitely think it will make a difference. Just being able to physically hand someone a book you can read fairly quickly. And like you said, you see the visual story happening, and the text is simple. Having a tool that’s simple and direct will make it easier to share with our friends, with our family, our clergy. And it will make it more likely that they’re actually going to read the book and understand what we’re going through.
It’s a simple message, and we just hand it over, and it makes it clear and concise for the reader.
Anne: This type of abuse is complex. When you explain it the first time, most people are like, no, no. They kind of roll their eyes and shake their heads. And they’re like no, no, this is not abuse. Pornography use is not abusive, whatever, and then maybe they think about it, and then maybe they come back.
In fact, all of us went through that same thing where we were like, “No, he’s a good guy, he just has this problem. I don’t know what you’re talking about.” So this book enables people to suspend their disbelief enough to let it sink in a little bit more than perhaps a conversation might. The powerful truth is this is emotional abuse to his wife.
Explaining Betrayal Trauma Useing Illustrations & Infographics To Make The Content Easy To Understand
Anne: This book includes a bunch of infographics at the end about why it’s abusive, really illustrating in visual ways this type of abuse.
Like there’s one infographic specifically on coercion and what that means. There are infographics on the four pillars of abuse and the abuse cycle. Those educational pieces help tie it together in logical ways. Due to that, II think it kind of sidesteps what happens maybe in a conversation. When people hear the word abuse and put their guard up.
Jenna: Yeah, I agree. It’s like a tool that they can pick up and read, put down and think about. And then go back and look at the infographics and think about them some more. And put it down, pick it back up. It’s like an ongoing process, because like you said, we all go through that phase of thinking, well, it’s not actually abuse. There’s no physical abuse happening here.
It must not be abuse. But then when you break it down, when you look at the core of what’s happening, it starts to shift and you start to realize, oh, this is abuse. And I am being abused. It’s just a great tool.
Anne: So I did not intend it to be a children’s book. I intended it to be a picture book for adults to help teach this complex issue. It’s been out at my house, and my kids love it, and they think it’s amazing. Of course, as the author of it, I’ve had the storyboard out and different versions of it.
It’s A Picture Book, Is It Appropriate For Children?
Anne: As the iterations progressed, my kids really, really genuinely love it. They love looking at the pictures. For me, this is my job. This is what I do all the time. And my kids, they’re familiar with this because I’m talking about it all the time. So for me, is it appropriate for my kids? I think yes. For women wondering, is this a book for kids or a book for teenagers? What are your thoughts?
Jenna: I definitely think it depends on the situation, and I think each parent needs to decide if it is appropriate for their child specifically. Because every situation is different. I think that there is value in talking about our experiences with our kids. So the amount of detail shared may differ from one person to another. But I do think our kids are in tune with what’s going on.
https://youtu.be/126Il6pSQPI
They know that something is wrong when we are going through betrayal trauma, and when we’re going through abuse. They can sense that something is off. Even at a very young age, I think there is value in acknowledging that and maybe sharing some experience with them, so that they can make sense of what’s going on.
Why Would It Be Appropriate For Children?
Anne: If someone shares it with their children, the cool thing about it is that it’s appropriate. There are no graphic pictures. There’s no graphic language. Everything is kid friendly. There’s nothing explicit in it. Is it appropriate for children? Absolutely, is it a book for children? I don’t know. Parents will have to get it. They’ll have to look at it, and decide for themselves.
I think kids will really like it regardless. So if they picked it up, I think they’d think, Oh, these pictures are pretty.
Jenna: Now that we’re talking about this, I’m realizing you typically interview. And I’m just thinking, Wait a minute, we’re sitting in the wrong seats. Maybe we need to turn things around, and I need to interview you and ask you questions about the book. What do you think?
Anne: Okay.
Jenna: I just have questions that come to mind from my experience. What was it like to write this book?
Anne: Well, it was hard at first because I wanted to show every scenario that could ever happen. The first versions were really, really long. They were too long. In the beginning, there were lots more illustrations. And so trying to pare that down was hard.
Explaining Betrayal Trauma with Illustrations Showing The Vortex Of Emotions Victims Feel
Anne: One of the reasons why I picked Cristalwolf as the illustrator is that I sent one page to several illustrators, and some of them sent back pictures that actually had exploitative material on them. Like someone was looking at an iPad, and the iPad had it on it. And I didn’t want anything like that. I didn’t want it explicit. I wanted it to be friendly and feel wholesome.
When Cristalwolf sent hers back, I was like, “Oh, she gets it.” She didn’t include anything like that. It was clear. But then as we created the storyboard and went through, it was a lot harder than I thought to illustrate some of these concepts visually.
How does an illustrator explain these concepts through art? So there’s Trauma Mama, right? And then there’s Dad. It’s sort of this vortex of abuse where sometimes he’s sweet and sometimes he’s on a rampage. And we were trying to figure out how to illustrate that difficult concept. A friend of mine said, “What about a tornado?”
Anne: So Every single one of the illustrations Every single one went through multiple, multiple, multiple iterations. And then the words on every single page went through multiple, multiple, multiple iterations.
Trying To Capture & Make Clear That Betrayal Trauma Is Abuse
Anne: I wanted it to rhyme, and I wanted it to have a certain rhythm, and to explain betrayal trauma. I had this criteria that we had to use. So making everything fit within those parameters was a lot longer process than I thought. And I’m pleased with the result. I didn’t want to write a crappy book, I just didn’t. I wanted it to be good and help people immediately, because I thought if this isn’t clear, it’s not going to be helpful.
The main problem with betrayal trauma, and trying to explain betrayal trauma and this type of abuse. Is it so difficult to understand what’s happening?
Jenna: I think you achieved that goal. I can’t stop looking at the pictures. The pictures are so pretty to look at, but it’s so validating to read. And it just hits home. Like it feels so accurate. Really good job. You did great. What was the hardest part of writing this book for you?
Anne: I think the process of writing this book was the same process that we all go through, in that we’re trying to figure out what’s happening and then trying to communicate that to someone else. So I’d say the hardest part of writing the book parallels, the hardest part of our experience of betrayal trauma. Which is that it’s difficult, even when you know what’s going on, to communicate it to someone else.
The Journey Of Trauma Feelings & Emotional Abuse Illustrated
Anne: Probably getting the emotions, right? The fear, the anxiety, and the worry. There’s a section where she sets boundaries, and figuring out the visual metaphor for what that would feel like took a long time.
The process of writing the book explaining betrayal trauma, and the process of iterating these illustrations, helped me go deep into what I felt. It was almost like explaining to myself what betrayal trauma felt like.
Throughout this whole experience, I had to close my eyes and remember how I felt. And then having to actually illustrate what that looked like for me and for all of us was like going back in time, emotionally.
Jenna: That makes sense. And the nice thing is now that we have the book, it helps all the women who are having a hard time communicating their experience to other people and what it’s like.
Now they have this great tool that they give someone and say, Please read this book. This is how I’m feeling. This is the best way to explain betrayal trauma. You’re helping other women go through that same experience. Many of the women you interact with daily are just discovering this addiction, or many have been in it for many years.
But many of them are just now learning that they’re not crazy, and that there’s something called betrayal trauma. They’re just now learning some language, and they’re just realizing that there are other people experiencing this. And that there’s help and hope ahead.
Trauma Momma Husband Drama Gives Women Relief & Validation, They Aren’t Crazy
Jenna: And so this book would give them language, like the simple language, to narrate their story to explain what’s happening. When you read something that describes your experience, and you’re like, that’s what I’m feeling. I remember the first time I heard the term betrayal trauma, and I read a brief description of it. And I thought, wait, this is exactly what I’m feeling. This must be what I have or what I’m going through.
But I remember feeling. Like this wave of relief that like there’s a term for it. There are others who feel this way, there is hope, because that’s one thing that the book describes. Like the pain of the betrayal trauma and the pain of people not believing you. Then it does more than that, because it takes it to the next level of saying, “Okay, that happens. But look what happens as she sets boundaries and establishes safety in her life.” For the women in our community going through this.
I think that that could give them a lot of validation that what they’re going through is real, that they’re not crazy, and that there are other women who experience it. And it reminds them that this isn’t the end. They get to establish the safety in their life. They decide what their future looks like.
Anne: In the messages I receive every day and the comments on social media, I hear the panic, fear, and anxiety in women’s stories.
Anne: I welcome those stories, because I think the more we can amplify our voices, the more it helps other women who are going through it, who can’t find help. And then when they find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and they have a book like Trauma Mama Husband Drama. Then they have language for understanding betrayal trauma, and it’s easier to identify. It’s easier to talk about.
Jenna: I definitely agree. And I want to reiterate that, it’s like I almost want to say a little prayer for every comment I see. You know, you can just tell someone understands what you’re talking about.
I am grateful that someone is willing to share something so personal, so private, and so precious with you and with Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I appreciate that you take that seriously. Every message you get, you want it. You’re so grateful that women are willing to be vulnerable and share with you. So thank you. What are your hopes for this book? Where do you see it going, and what do you hope it brings to the world?
Anne: The hope for this book is the same as the hope for Betrayal Trauma Recovery, to ensure that every woman in the world can identify psychological and emotional abuse and coercion. And also create safety when they’re experiencing it.
So we do that through several mediums at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Social media daily. the podcast, daily online group sessions, where victims can talk to other women going through it. With our amazing coaches that I trained personally.
Hopes For All The Women Of The World To Have Peace & Safety In Their Homes
Anne: There are many ways that we do this. This is just another way to educate people about this type of abuse, and to explain betrayal trauma. And until every woman in the world and every man understands coercion. They understand that a woman who thinks her relationship is free of this and she’s not aware of her husband’s use, that’s coercion. They understand that the gaslighting and manipulating are emotional and psychological abuse. People need to understand.
And I think once that understanding is there, we can start making real forward progress for the safety of women and children, homes and families. It’s also the only hope for the abusive man. The goal of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the goal of Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is world peace. Dare I sound like a beauty pageant contestant, but genuinely speaking, the end goal is world peace.
It is peace in homes, to have safe, peaceful, like genuinely happy, full, healthy relationships. With their spouses, with their children and with themselves. And that’s what I love about Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Yeah, we talk about dark things all the time, but what are we genuinely looking toward? It’s a world of peace.
Jenna: Yeah, we want happy, peaceful families and a happy, peaceful world. I love that, thanks. Do we order this book through Amazon? Where can I get a printed copy?
Anne: You can find it on our website at btr.org/books. If you click on it, it’ll take you to Amazon, and you can order it from Amazon. And it comes just like all your other Amazon orders. You can also get it on Kindle.
The Importance Of Reviews To Help Women Be Safe From Emotional Abuse
Anne: When we talk about women finding this book, the more reviews this book gets, the more visible it is in the Amazon algorithm. So when you receive the book as a verified purchaser, go back to Amazon and review it. Give it five stars. That will help other women find the book. Because when you search for things on Amazon, the things that are the most popular, the things that have the most reviews, they tend to be toward the top of the list.
Please help us get this book at the top of the list. So many people when they’re looking for things about, like communication or marriage issues or relationship things, get stupid stuff that has not helped us. That has led us down the wrong path. Like the five love languages. So many women were like, okay, well, if this is his love language, then I’m going to do this.
And that did not help them when it came to abuse. So rather than finding books that. Don’t hit the abuse head on. I would like women to find a book like this right off the bat. When they’re looking for communication books, I would love them to see this and consider that or infidelity may be a factor and that they may experience emotional abuse.
It breaks my heart when women struggle to heal from their divorce. And they say, something like, you know, it wasn’t working. I’m just not good enough. I’ll say, “did he use exploitative material?” because that’s such a marker for emotional and psychological abuse. And she’ll tell me, “Well, yeah, but that wasn’t the cause, we just fought all the time.”
Women Often Don’t Know They’re Experiencing Abuse, understanding betrayal trauma Helps Them Find Out
Anne: And my heart just goes out to her, because I want her to know that she doesn’t have to feel guilt for anything that “contributed” to the marriage problems. If her husband used this stuff or had affairs, or emotionally or psychologically abused her. Most of the time, women don’t see these markers, they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse. She wouldn’t even know that it was happening.
She might just think they get in a fight all the time. They don’t know the best way to explain betrayal trauma, or that they are experiencing it.
Once you know, the truth. You can start to make the decisions that are right for you. The reason I wrote Trauma Mama Husband Drama was to educate everyone. About abuse in general, and this needs to be part of this discussion, because it is abuse period. End of story. It’s a marker of abuse. And every person needs to know that if you use exploitative material, you’re going to hurt people.
Jenna: When you were talking, I thought back to when I first discovered the exploitative materials use and emotional abuse happening in my marriage. And I thought back to how I didn’t know what to do. And I had nothing, no tools. I wish I’d had someone hand me this book and say, just read this. And it would have been like a game changer from the beginning. And I could have avoided years of so much emotional pain. So I’m glad you wrote this book. Thank you so much.
Not Being Alone – Discovering Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Jenna: I can’t wait to order more copies. It is the best way to explain betrayal trauma. I’m giving them to my friends, even those with me during my experience, and empathetic to me. I want them to see it, read it and share it with everyone. Give it to my family members, church leaders, people I meet, who are going through something similar. People who have a passing thought might be going through something like this.
Anne: Before we go, would you tell listeners how you discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery?
Jenna: I would love to. Okay. So I remember this vividly. Years ago, I was sitting on my phone and looking for resources for women whose husbands use this. And I just had this thought, maybe there is a podcast about betrayal trauma. I looked in my podcast app, and I looked up betrayal trauma and there was nothing. And I was like, Oh, bummer. Then later one night I was thinking about it again. And I searched again, and I think it was only like a week later.
So I searched it again. And then your podcast popped up, and I got so excited. I was like, Oh, I have to listen to this. And I started listening. And I just remember feeling like, Oh, she gets it. Oh my gosh. It was like this moment of like, I’m not alone.
And then as I started to listen to the podcast more and more, I listened to every episode. And then, a group I attended, a support group I attended at the time, someone from that group had sent out a message. Like, Hey, I have a friend who started this podcast. She’s looking for some volunteers. She wants to get the word out.
Trying To Change The World
Jenna: And I was like, Wait a minute, this is the podcast I’m listening to. I definitely want to help, because I love it and care about it, and this is the experience I’m going through.
And so I think she sent you my contact information, and you called me. I got too nervous to answer the phone because I was like, I don’t know, maybe it’s her. And then, and I heard your voicemail, I’m going to call her back. And so I called you back and I just remember hearing your voice, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is the voice from the podcast. I feel like a, like a little bit of a fangirl, you know, at the time.
Anne: Yeah. It’s crazy. And now you’re like, Oh, it’s just Anne.
Jenna: Normal, but also like creating great things, like the best way to explain betrayal trauma.
Anne: Trying, right? Attempting to change the world. I think that’s one thing I love about myself and hate about myself. It’s that I’m crazy enough to think we can do this, right? We can change the world. It will take a lot of time, effort, and whole army of us to educate everybody about this.
And also, they’re going to think we’re crazy and we have to keep going. Like we can’t let that stop us. We can’t let their eye rolls and their, “Oh, who’s she? What does she know?” Stop us from moving forward. It’s people like you and the amazing Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches that enable Betrayal Trauma Recovery to grow the way it has, and I feel like people have come out of the woodwork. Yeah, trying right? Attempting to change the world.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Is On A Mission To End Ignorance About Psychological & Emotional Abuse
Anne: That’s one thing I love and hate about myself. I’m crazy enough to think we can do this. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery checklist is a great way to help women who get it, who felt sort of, I would say, “called.” They don’t want any other woman to go through it.
They’re thinking the same thing. I thought if I had this podcast and Trauma Mama Husband Drama, that is the best way to explain betrayal trauma. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop and an amazing online Support Group that meets multiple times a day.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery is a team of women who’ve been through it, who understand it. And who are dedicated to eliminating the pain and suffering.
Jenna: Yeah, I love that. I love the visual that we’re an army and we’re a team because that is definitely true.
Anne: Again, you can find my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama, at btr.org/books. It is the best way to explain betrayal trauma. I appreciate so many of you who have given Trauma Mama Husband Drama, a five-star rating on Amazon. Every one of your reviews bumps it up the algorithm so other women can find us. I also appreciate your comments on Facebook and Instagram.
If you could please help spread the word about Betrayal Trauma Recovery, at least just comment on any of our social media posts, even if it’s like a heart. Find the post and put a thumbs up or clap emoji. It can be an emoji, which helps the algorithm. And some comment on every one of our platforms every day. It helps a ton. So those of you are doing that. Thank you so much. We need you, and so do all the women in the world.
Scared and Unsure? Best Private Support Group for Marriage Problems
Apr 02, 2024
If you’re searching for a support group for marriage problems because your husband’s behavior is starting to scare you, or because traditional counseling hasn’t helped, you’re in the right place. Most women who find BTR begin exactly where you are right now: scared, unsure, and trying to figure out who they can safely talk to when their marriage feels confusing or frightening.
But here’s what almost no one tells you:
Not every support group for marriage problems is emotionally safe for women.
Not every counselor understands.
And not every institution knows how to help you.
Today’s episode explores why the struggle to find the right type of support group for marriage problems is actually a systemic issue. You’ll hear from sociologist Dr. Nicole Bedera, whose research exposes how universities often fail women who are scared, even if they follow every “correct” path to get help.
And then you’ll meet Haley, a woman whose college experiences mirror what so many married women face in counseling offices, churches, Title IX, and even courtrooms.
Their stories may not be about marriage directly, but the patterns are heartbreakingly similar, where women are
seeking help
blamed or minimized
told to “be fair” to the man who hurt them
pushed into silence
left without the clarity or support they needed
If you’ve been wondering where to turn, or what kind of support group for marriage problems can actually help, here are five truths from this episode that will help you find the right support.
1. A Support Group for Marriage Problems isn’t usually Built for Clarity
A lot of marriage-based groups focus on:
communication skills
mutual responsibility
serving each other
But since you’ve already tried these things, more of it likely won’t help clarify what’s actually going on if you’re confused about what’s going on in your marriage,
2. If You’re UnSURE what’s Going On With Your Husband, It’s Likely Not A Marriage Problem
Women often think:
“He isn’t always like this.”
“I’m probably overreacting.”
“He’s stressed. Maybe that’s all this is.”
But confusion is information. Your body senses something is amiss before your mind has language for it. Any support group for marriage problems or helper who tells you you’re “too sensitive” or “too emotional” is not equipped to help you.
3. Institutions Often Protect the Person Hurting You
This is the clearest thread between Nicole’s research and the stories we hear from married women every day. When women are confused, universities, churches, pastors, counselors, or courts, don’t support women who need answers. They act as a mediator between two parties, but if he’s lying, it will just be more of the same.
The best support group for marriage problems will break this pattern and give you clarity, without you having to communicate with him more, especially since communicating with him hasn’t cleared up confusion in the past.
4. WHEN Manipulative Men Use Systems to Their Advantage, a support group for marriage problems is essential
This is one of the hardest truths women aren’t told, but one of the most important. When a woman is confused by her husband, it’s usually because he’s lying to her and …
charming counselors
throwing her under the bus with church leaders
appearing calm while you appear shaken
using systems to make you look “unstable” or “dramatic”
That’s why Haley’s story matters for married women too. Her abusers used university structures the same way husbands use counseling or clergy, to stay in control and keep the woman quiet. A safe support group for marriage problems knows these patterns and can help you navigate them.
5. The Best Support for Marriage Problems Is Confidential
A true support group for marriage problems should:
protect your confidentiality
help you trust your instincts
give you clarity
never push you toward something that scares you
Women deserve to have clarity about what’s going on, long before they ever step into a counseling office or try to get help from an institution that may not understand. We understand and you can receive live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session
As You Listen to This Episode…
Notice how both women in these interviews talk about trying to get help in all the “correct” ways and how each system responded, they were…
doubted
blamed
minimized
If marriage counseling, recovery programs, support groups for marriage problems, religious leaders, Title IX offices, or courts have left you confused or unsafe, today’s episode will help you understand why. If you need clarity in your marriage, here’s my Clarity After Betrayal workshop.
Transcript: When You Don’t Know Where To Turn For Help
Anne: We’re gonna start with Dr. Badera. She’s a sociologist, an author of the book, On The Wrong Side: How Universities Protect Perpetrators and Betray Survivors. Her research focuses broadly on how our social structures contribute to survivor trauma. Nicole puts her work into practice at the Center for Institutional Courage. After I get done talking to Nicole, I’ll have Hailey share her story. Welcome Nicole.
Nicole: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.
Anne: I’m excited too. Listeners to this podcast are trying to get clarity after betrayal. They often start by searching for a support group for marriage problems. And most of the time, they can’t get clarity because the people they go to to get help aren’t able to help them because they don’t know what’s going on. Your work focuses on students trying to get help on college campuses, but I think it really intersects. Because in both cases, they don’t get the information or support they need. Can you talk about your research?
Nicole: I focus on what happens for students still in school. Victims report to most of the Title IX office most of the time. You might have heard about it in the news. It’s been everywhere over the past 10 years, but it’s quieted down quite a bit recently. I spent a year inside one of those Title IX offices interviewing the victims, perpetrators, and school administrators who had the most control over their cases.
So in that setting, all knew something was wrong. They might not know how to label it, or how to label it in a way that the system would recognize. That’s something survivors deal with a lot. Especially since a lot of this stuff is just made to feel normal for women.
Seeking help through the Title ix office parallels seeking a support group for marriage problems
Nicole: There’s this idea that this is what you should expect when you go to college. And so there were some that they weren’t sure what was going on, but they knew that something had affected usually their education. Or they felt unsafe, unsettled, and they ended up in my study because they went to their school for help. Either through the victim advocacy office, which on a college campus, can help survivors with whatever they need, but many things that have nothing to do with the perpetrator.
Including things like they need an extension on an assignment, or there’s a specific class they want to take, but their perpetrator wants to take it. So they’re trying to coordinate to figure out when they can take it in the semester that they won’t be in the same classroom, things like that.
Or they went through the Title IX office to try to report what happened to them, to try to seek some kind of safety or justice. But many themes are not that different from all the other places that maybe you’ve considered going to for help.
Anne: When a woman has a situation where she needs help, but she doesn’t quite know where to go to find help, it’s so heartbreaking for me. I see this often with wives trying to figure it out after their husband’s betrayal. We usually do couple therapy, or maybe like addiction recovery, trying to figure out how can I start to feel safe again in my marriage. Why do you think this idea of safety and how to feel safe again is just so hard for pretty much everybody to understand? Like what do you mean she feels unsafe and what are we supposed to do about it?
The Primary concern of the title ix office
Nicole: There are a couple of issues that we run into. One of them is that a lot of the systems that we think are going to help, won’t help. If you think about a college campus, for example. Students are told, if you’re experiencing sexual violence, sexual harassment, or any kind of gender discrimination, come to the Title IX office and they will help you.
But that’s not what the Title IX office is concerned with. Their primary concern is what do we do with this perpetrator. Sometimes doing something about the perpetrator would help if the school would, which they often hesitate to do. But a lot of the time, that’s not meeting a survivor’s need in a real way.
That’s the same issue that comes up if you go to a couple therapist or support group for marriage problems. I think many people who’ve tried for help at any of these institutions have an experience where you’re coming in for something really tangible for yourself. So an example I gave earlier is you are, let’s say you’re a victim in a university setting, and you show up on the first day of class. And you see your perpetrator is in class with you, and that the class will discuss sexual violence as a topic.
So this just feels impossible for you to be safe in this environment, because it’s going to remind you of your trauma. You might have to watch your perpetrator interact. It’s going to be just a place where your body and mind respond to the traumatic experiences you’ve already had.
Anne: And the trauma you continue to experience because the likelihood of him gaslighting you through this whole thing is like off the charts.
the System focuses on what it means for the perpetrator
Nicole: You’re right. It’s unlikely that if you’re in that class with your perpetrator. You and your perpetrator will share the same public narrative about why you can’t sit next to him in class. And so the perpetrator might disparage the victim, might tell lies about what happened to avoid accountability.
You’re right. A victim in that scenario reasonably is just thinking, I just want this guy out of my class, right? I want to take the class I want to take and complete my degree on time. Why is this affecting me in this scenario? Most people, if you think about it rationally, would say, that’s a reasonable set of requests. You know, you’ve already experienced a sexual assault. That’s enough of a burden. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice your education too.
But in our current university system, there is no way to get that outcome. And so instead, when a victim comes forward and says, “This is what I need,” the entire system is focused on, “But what would this mean for the perpetrator? Is it fair to him? Is this going to be too much for him?” That happens within a support group for marriage problems. The focus can be on the perpetrator.
This is one of the stories I start the book with. Even if the system works as it claims, it can’t fix it. There is no version of a sexual assault response in our society that can intervene in two weeks. We don’t really have a version of that right now. That’s a big part of why coming forward is so harmful, because they will tell you to wait. They will re-traumatize you. They will force you back into communication, into being in the same room with your perpetrator.
Metaphor of hot stove with women in scenarios including a support group for marriage problems
Anne: I help all sorts of women in all sorts of scenarios. But one that I’m thinking of right now is a woman with a protective order, and he continues to violate the protective order. And she keeps calling it in, and then they have to have a hearing about it. And the hearing isn’t for like three months. In the meantime, there’s no protection for her.
To hear the prosecutor talk about the date of the court hearing, rather than to hear somebody say, “I care about you. We’re going to do something so that he can’t come around you anymore.” That’s what she needs to hear. But for some reason, that’s like beyond their comprehension.
Nicole: I use this metaphor putting your hand on a hot stove. Right now, our systems just tell the victim, pretend it’s not burning you. Just keep being burned while we decide what to do. And if it is burning you and you can’t handle it, there must be something wrong with you. And a better system would say, let’s turn off the stove. We’re just going to turn it off and we’re going to take a minute to figure out what to do next.
Anne: This happens in marriages all the time. Because the support group for marriage problems, the professional counselor, clergy, or any number of people she’s going to for help, don’t identify that “the stove is on,” to use your metaphor. They’re like, “Something’s wrong with you because you’re burned for no reason.”
Nicole: Right. Or let’s try to evenly manage this. There’s this real temptation in a lot of these systems to say, “Well, why don’t both people come to the table and offer something?”
victims just want to feel safe
Nicole: And so that would be akin in the same metaphor to saying, “Well, why don’t we have the stove turned down a little bit? And why don’t we have the person with their hand on the stove stop complaining they’re being burned?”
And that doesn’t make sense. We as a culture are comfortable asking for more sacrifices from victims, as long as it’s in the name of giving an advantage to their perpetrator. But we know that abuse takes place when there is a power inequity. And so if that’s the reason we’re saying both people have to do something or the victim can’t get what they need. Because we want to give a benefit to the perpetrator, that will always deepen that inequity. It’s always going to deepen that power disparity, and that can make the abuse worse.
Anne: My eye is twitching. The other thing I think is interesting when it comes to reporting or not reporting. For me and many women who have been through it, reporting wasn’t the issue. We just wanted to feel safe. I didn’t necessarily want my ex husband to go to jail.
I just wanted him to leave me alone. In my personal case, I had a protective order. The criminal court said, “Do not talk to him, you have a protective order,” but the civil court ordered me to talk to him because we share children. So for eight years, my ex abused me post divorce. A man I have a protective order against, who I do not want to talk to. But the civil court forces me to talk to him because of my kids. I didn’t want to report his abuse, so he went to jail.
the Title ix debate
Anne: I think that’s the thing that people have a hard time with, especially with custody cases, where the judge is like, “Well, I can’t take away custody because then I’d be calling him an abuser. And then what? He’d go to prison.”
Victims want to be safe. And in many of these civil cases, especially with kids. The safe parent, the mother, is seeking a support group for marriage problems, she is not trying to throw him in jail. And same thing in college, victims are just asking that he doesn’t go to this class, maybe he transfers schools. But for some reason, they equate it to prison.
Nicole: That’s exactly right. And I want to say that this is a new problem. And the Title IX debate is actually the center of why this is happening throughout society. So, a little history, in 1972, a law passed. And that law said sex discrimination is illegal on college campuses that receive federal funding.
And that’s all schools, to be clear. Even Harvard accepts a lot of funds from the federal government to keep their doors open. They would have a very hard time keeping their doors open without those federal funds. And the law itself is just a single sentence. The law isn’t super clear about everything that’s included and not included.
So there were a series of court cases to try to figure that out. One of them was in 1980, Alexander v. Yale, and that was the first court case that said that sexual violence should be illegal on a college campus, that it should be something that schools should do something about, and they should have their own internal proceedings to manage sexual violence.
Colleges don’t follow the law and women seeking a support group for marriage problems
Nicole: And the focus here wasn’t about sending people to jail. That’s what you could call the police for, if that’s what you wanted. This is specifically for scenarios where victims’ educations were impacted by their sexual assaults, intimate partner violence, stalking, or whatever they experienced.
And so, the Department of Education had argued that schools need to do something to ensure that violence doesn’t interfere with the quality of education you receive from the school, including things like if there’s a known perpetrator on campus. Let’s say he’s a professor, let’s say he’s withholding good grades unless students provide sexual favors, which is what that 1980 court case was about.
Part of what Title IX would require is removing the perpetrator from campus, because obviously no woman can get a fair education from that person. And so the focus is on restoring those educational rights. The issue was that schools just didn’t do it. And so every few years, the Department of Education would remind schools that they had to do something about sexual harassment and violence, and they just didn’t do it. And for the most part, it didn’t capture much attention until the Obama administration.
Anne: Was part of their justification for not doing their job them thinking, “If it was bad enough, she’d call the police.”
Nicole: Certainly. Inside Higher Ed conducted a survey in 2015, where they asked university presidents, do you think campus sexual violence is a problem on your campus? And the vast, vast, vast majority said, “No, that’s a problem at other schools. We don’t have to worry about it,” which is not true.
The Law captures national attention
Nicole: By the way, we have yet to find a university that doesn’t have sexual violence as a problem. And so, yes, that’s part of how they justified it, “We don’t want to handle this, this is a criminal act, not a civil act.”
But that’s not what the law said. And so, the Obama administration sent out another one of these reminder letters, and for whatever reason, it became hotly politicized. And in that moment, a group of Harvard professors, law professors, wrote an essay saying the Title IX approach the Obama administration required wasn’t right. Because it didn’t allow the same kind of due process protections that the criminal justice system does.
So exactly what you’re saying, that’s what they said. And to be clear, a lot of these Harvard Law professors were not specialized in issues of gender based violence. And the average lawyer gets very little training during law school about sexual violence or harassment, especially in civil settings. So they were just wrong. They were just flat out wrong.
But this argument captured the national attention. It went viral. Other judges and lawyers think there are due process protections on college campuses that never existed before. Prior to this moment, if you faced student disciplinary proceedings on a college campus, your only rights were to know your accusations, and what the violation would be, and have some chance to respond, but there were no rules about how you would do that. So some schools did it in writing, some did it through hearings, some weren’t doing much of anything.
A guest speaker example
Nicole: And so, this new idea that anything involving sexual violence must be held to a criminal standard of due process. It is only a few years old. It’s not too late to reverse it, and we should, because the stakes are so different. I call it “Accumulated Fantasies of Disaster.” Where, exactly like you’re describing, a victim says, “I need one thing,” and sometimes on college campuses, that is safety for their kids.
Married people live in student housing on college campuses with children, living in essentially the dorms, but family dorms. And that’s often what they’re looking for. I am trying to escape an abusive marriage. I need a support group for marriage problems. My partner is still on campus, and we’re still living in the same dorm. And is there another unit I can move into with my kids as I go through divorce proceedings, as I go through a custody battle, essentially saying exactly what you are.
“Well, if we do that, it could lead to all these other issues for the perpetrator down the line.” And some stories that I heard during my time in the field were really unreasonable. For example: A guest speaker who came to a campus sexually harassed a woman.
The guest speaker was CEO of a company. And he stalked and sexually harassed her since meeting her. He had no other tie to the campus community. So from a legal perspective, the university had no obligation to him. They don’t have to let him come back and speak again. They don’t even have to let him come on campus if they don’t want to, because he’s not a student. He’s not a professor. He has no rights to this space.
Men accused don’t have bad things happen to them: finding a support group for marriage problems
Nicole: But instead, the Title IX investigators wrapped themselves in knots to think of all of these horrible things that could happen to him if they took the victim’s wishes into consideration, which was just, please don’t invite him back to be guest speaker again. I don’t want this to happen to anybody else.
And they said things like, “He could get a bad reputation, he could lose his job, he could be incarcerated.” And it’s not true. Because a lot of these proceedings are private. They can’t hand private files to the police.
That’s illegal. That’s not how it works. People have privacy rights. Educational documents, in particular, are really private. But that’s what they’re thinking. They’re saying, “If you come forward, every bad thing will happen to this person.” And yeah, we’re talking about a CEO. Who’s going to fire him, himself? It doesn’t make sense.
Anne: Also, heaven forbid, a bad thing happen to a rapist.
Nicole: I completely agree. I think we can all see from just examples in pop culture, presidential races, whatever it might be. Men accused of sexual assault tend not to have bad things happen to them. Women seeking a support group for marriage problems face this as well. If anything, I argue they tend to get benefits. The Johnny Depp trial is a great example. He made an entire comeback. He was having a hard time finding work in Hollywood because of his own behavior on set. Now he’s getting this second chance. Because he’s known as a perpetrator of domestic violence, which he never refuted, by the way.
Accumulated fantasies of disaster
Nicole: He never refuted that he had physically harmed Amber Heard. He never said that. And he simply argued that she deserved it, which worked.
Anne: That’s insane, it’s wild. We should see through it, but we don’t, because we come to a place from victim blaming first. I kept seeing people worry about worst-case scenarios…accumulated fantasies of disaster about what might happen to perpetrators. And how bad it’ll be if we say out loud what they did.
But I interviewed the perpetrators, and those things didn’t happen to them. If anything, many of them enjoyed these accountability proceedings. Because, like we’re talking about, there’s these contradictions in them. Court proceedings constrain the victim’s behavior. They don’t allow the victim to do X, Y, and Z, or it’ll hurt their credibility. While simultaneously, forcing them to be in contact the perpetrator regularly. And that’s something perpetrators enjoy.
Anne: Yeah, they like it.
Nicole: Yes!
Anne: Sorry, we need to focus on this. I created a strategy workshop. It’s called the Living Free Workshop, Click on that link and learn more. It helps women see why abusers like this enjoy it. And what these types of abusers get out of it. So that women can use strategy to protect themselves and find emotional safety in a support group for marriage problems. Because we don’t enjoy it. That’s what you discovered. I’m like, yes, they enjoy it. And it’s because they never lose.
Nicole: Even if they lose, the losses are hollow. They expelled one student for intimate partner violence while I was on campus.
The dean of students facilitated a perpetrators transfer
Nicole: So it is rare, I was on campus that year. But what that expulsion meant was because of this rush to protect the perpetrator. This rush to make sure nothing bad happened to him. The Dean of Students had already helped facilitate his transfer to another university by the time he was expelled.
It was close enough, he didn’t even have to move apartments. And they had slowed down the proceedings for two years. Originally with the hope that he would graduate before they had to hold him accountable. But he didn’t graduate for a whole host of reasons. Instead, the victim had to take a leave of absence, for those two years. Because he was so violent and so dangerous that she couldn’t safely be on campus.
And so they told her, you know, the same thing we’re talking about before. Until he’s been through this process, we can’t offer you any kind of assistance. So if you can’t handle being here, you’re the one who should leave. And that’s one of the big things that I hope people take from all these conversations. It is that every time we do something like this to protect a perpetrator, every time we say, “I’m going to be fair to both people, I’m going to invite both of you to this place, and anybody who can’t handle it, don’t come.”
What you’re really saying is the perpetrator is going to be here and the victim won’t. Because you’re not giving them anything that’s possible to do. Victims can’t turn off their trauma and peacefully coexist. Even if they do manage to share space with the perpetrator, it always takes a toll, and that’s unfair.
Everything is backwards: victim blaming and finding a support group for marriage problems or victims
Nicole: It’s not right. Everything is totally backwards.
Anne: Yeah. Well, the other issue that people don’t recognize is that he is still going to be abusing her. It could be a basketball game, whatever. The way he acts, the way he’s lying about her, the way he’s like, “Oh, she’s so crazy.” That is abuse. And he’s still doing it right now. So you haven’t stopped the abuse. It’s not like this happened in the past. She still needs some sort of support group for marriage problems or victims of emotional abuse.
Nicole: And I would argue that even if nothing happens, that still is a continuation of the abuse as well. Because I think of all these scenarios where the perpetrator and victim are forced to share space. Again, kids are a common scenario. And everybody watching wants to see this cartoon villain of a perpetrator that doesn’t exist. And so instead they say, “He seemed nice, he was friendly to you, you seem like you’re the one who’s overreacting.” And that’s part of the plan too. A big part of that abuse is showing they can follow social norms, and treat people appropriately.
And ultimately, it still leads to often, in this case, other people blaming the victim, questioning their legitimacy. That’s a lot of what perpetrators do in these proceedings. They come in and they don’t scream and yell. They’re not physically violent in that setting. And so people think, “Oh, he must be fine.”
Anne: It’s called grooming, and grooming is abusive. So that IS the abuse. And they don’t realize they’re abused too, because he’s lying.
No one is helping victims transfer to a new school
Nicole: A good point.
Anne: The same thing happens everyday with the courts with civil custody cases. that part where you said the university helped him transfer his stuff to the new school. No one is helping the victims do these things. No one’s helping wives in these scenarios. They have to find their own support group for marriage problems.
Nicole: And that was one of the most glaring disparities of all. And there’s actually an academic concept that I think would be helpful to your listeners. It’s this idea of institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as an institution’s actions or inactions that exacerbate trauma.
So when they behave in a way that makes the traumatic experience more traumatic, and that’s one of the big things. How violent and traumatic an experience is for a victim is not set from the end of the violent event. It actually depends on everything that happens afterwards.
So, you know, if you tell your friends, do they believe you? Do they take your side or your perpetrator’s side? Do you get control over what happens after the violence is over? Or is somebody reporting to the police against your will or putting you into these scenarios that you don’t want to be in against your will?
Abuse is ultimately a violation of autonomy. And so every time an institution violates our autonomy again, that’s going to trigger those traumatic experiences. We find survivors experiencing institutional betrayal show the same traumatic symptoms as a sexual assault victim a second time in studies. It is an equal severity to that original act of violence.
Institutional betrayal is overwhelming
Nicole: Which is why it’s important that our institutions get this right, and for our friends and families to get this right too. Because a lot of people find this overwhelming. And I think it is overwhelming to think, “Wow, I thought the worst was over, but I could actually encounter something just as bad when I seek help,” is really overwhelming.
But on the other hand, if we do get it right, we actually have the capacity to make this violence less damaging to victims. And that’s the place where I come out on a hopeful side. Survivors who, when they seek help and get it, have fewer traumatic symptoms. The traumatic impact of that original event is lessened. So that’s got to be our goal here: to step out of these damaging patterns just because it’s the way things are, or it’s what we’re used to, and oh, it would take work and change to do something different.
Those aren’t good reasons. We should do the right thing because the stakes are really high. And we could really help a lot of people.
Anne: I talk with victims every day. When couples therapists don’t help them, when clergy don’t help them, when police don’t help them, when the civil court system doesn’t help them, and when a support group for marriage problems doesn’t help them, my eye twitches.
Nicole: I wanna say one of the things about institutional betrayal and the reasons why I think it’s important that people know how institutions can harm victims is that institutional betrayal can’t happen to the same severity if we already have some distrust for the institution.
Setting realistic expectations when seeking a support group for marriage problems or victims
Nicole: One of the key components is going to get help, and thinking you’re going to get it, and then not getting it. And so setting realistic expectations, not to lower the bar for these institutions, to know what can happen.
Anne: That’s what the Living Free Workshop is for, anticipating. If you talk to clergy about this, this is likely what’s going to happen. Like know these things beforehand.
The Living Free Workshop helps victims anticipate, because this has been driving me crazy for years. In my state, at the bottom of every article about domestic violence, every single one, there’s like a “Call the National Domestic Violence Hotline and then call our state domestic violence hotline.”
And everyone thinks that’s the solution. They think reporting is the solution. They don’t realize that’s not the solution at all. In fact, one victim that I know, she recently had the department that oversees victim services contact her. And they were like, “Hey, we heard that you had a bad interaction with a police officer in this certain county.”
We’re going to interview you. So she told them, ” Yeah, I’ve been working with this domestic violence shelter. I have a victim advocate.” She told him the whole story. She’s been working with a victim advocate at our local domestic violence shelter for over two years. They reviewed her case.
And they got back to her, and guess what they said? They said, “Oh, your case is really, really bad. You need services. Have you contacted your local domestic violence shelter?”
Nicole: Oh my.
Go to a confidential community
Anne: So it was like a full circle, you know. People in general think how we have to do is put this phone number on the bottom of a newspaper article and problem solved. And if she called that number and she’s still in this mess, it’s her fault because she didn’t use the services correctly.
Nicole: So I think one of the questions I get a lot is, if a lot of these systems aren’t trustworthy, where can we go? And the response is to go to a confidential community like this one. That is different than a domestic violence service. You want one that’s confidential, because your group won’t call the police. The court can’t subpoena you. So if you have questions to try to make sense of all the options in your community, they can work through that with you without things snowballing out of your control.
But that’s what I would say. Make sure you’re going somewhere confidential that will give you a lot of options, not just one option. Anywhere that’s pushing you back to one option is probably not the right place. I talk about these broader trends in how survivors lose their autonomy and become re-traumatized when they’re trying to find a good support group for marriage problems.
What we’ve been talking about this whole time. Which is when a victim says, “I’ve experienced this, I’m dealing with these consequences, and I need help with these consequences.” They’re recast as punishing, and everything is focused on, “But that could be bad for the perpetrator.” That is one of the biggest red flags.
Because you can’t just make that stuff go away. Like, trauma is trauma. It’s a physiological process. We can see evidence of it on the body.
Recognizing consequences are not unfair to the perpetrator
Nicole: You can’t just say, “Oh, you’re right. I don’t want anything bad to happen to my perpetrator.” So it goes away. That’s one of the ones to think about. Conflation between addressing the consequences that are inevitable, that will happen due to the action of sexual violence, or coercion or harassment, or whatever it is you’ve experienced, and acting as if recognizing those consequences is inherently unfair to the perpetrator.
Anne: I was trying to explain this to someone once, and I said, “Can you imagine if a man had a business partner and that business partner stole a bunch of money from the business, and the guy couldn’t hold him accountable in court? And then everyone around him was telling him, “You have to attend church with this guy.”
Nicole: Right, it’s suddenly so clear. It’s suddenly so clear that it would be unfair.
Anne: And people say to me, that’s crazy. This is completely different. And I’m like, “What I’m talking about is like 50 billion times worse.”
Nicole: Yeah.
Anne: Thinking about it in terms of a man being forced to interact with someone who hurt him, they can’t even talk about that because they’re like, “that would never happen.” Women need to find a support group for marriage problems that understands this.
Nicole: I mean, gender is such a big part of it, right? It is. Yeah. On a Title IX case, you would call it complainant and respondents, when those roles are reversed, usually in a retaliatory complaint. Where a real act of violence happened, the victim tried to report it, and the perpetrator responded by filing a second complaint saying, “Actually, I’m the true victim.”
retaliatory complaints by perpetrators: help from a support group for marriage problems or victims
Nicole: So again, a classic example of this is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard, where he doesn’t argue that there was never any violence. He says she deserved it. Actually, she’s the abuser, and I think I’m the true victim. And the goal of these retaliatory complaints is really to muddle the narrative, to confuse any investigators and to try to intimidate the victim into dropping their original complaint.
In those cases of retaliatory complaints, what I found is that the university didn’t care anymore about due process. When women were in the role of the accused, they faced a lot of consequences. I would actually argue punishment because they didn’t do anything. It can’t be consequences for their actions when all they did was report something someone else did to them.
It really is a gender issue. There is a real sense that we should take the side of the man, no matter what he has done, because he is a leader, because he should have male privilege, or you know, whatever it might be. He’s the more important person, and so we should protect the more important person.
And sometimes that comes out in really overtly misogynistic, obvious ways, and sometimes it’s a little bit more shielded in something more, called himpathy. So this concept of empathy comes from a philosopher named Kate Mann. And what it means is excessive empathy given to men at the expense of women.
What this can look like in practice is somebody saying something like, “Well, you know, sexual abuse is horrible. It ruins the victim’s life. The best we can do is try to make sure it doesn’t ruin two lives instead of one.”
Empathizing with the perpetrator
Nicole: It’s truly unbelievable if I didn’t have the direct quotes from the administrator saying it. But it’s treated as this righteous thing is this idea of I’m a good person if I can empathize with even the most sort of deplorable people in our society. And it’s not hard to empathize with men in these cases. Our culture trains us to do this. The difficult thing is to empathize with the victim.
Anne: Sorry, I can’t even, I can’t, I can’t. No wonder people don’t love me at church because I don’t sympathize with abusive men I’m like, I don’t care about him. And people are like, so offended.
Nicole: Yeah, people are offended.
Anne: And I’m like, why are you so offended? He’s a rapist. Why do you care about him? She needs a support group for marriage problems or victims.
Nicole: I think that’s the place we need to get to, especially in this moment in society where most people are empathizing with the perpetrator. So this framework I was thinking about where everybody’s saying, “Oh, you know, I’m going to empathize with the perpetrator because it’s a hard thing to do.”
Something administrators would say is, “Everybody’s going to side with the victim, because we all know rape is wrong. And so she’s going to have everybody in her corner. He doesn’t have anybody in his corner. So I’m going to be the person to show up for him.”
And so what we need at the bare minimum is a whole group of people who will show up for the survivor in that same way to recognize the real reality, which is the perpetrator has so many people in his corner.
Victims may lose friends, family and have to switch schools
Nicole: The victim is the person who’s getting pushed out of her entire social group. One of the things that’s so traumatic about sexual violence is a lot of people lose all their friends, a lot of their family. They might have to switch schools or change jobs, because everybody is focusing on being “fair” to the perpetrator.
None of this is fair. If what we’re doing for the perpetrator means the victim has to leave, it’s not fair. When we have an entire society where none of these systems are good at holding perpetrators accountable, it’s hard for people to imagine what that looks like. When we know that we can’t trust a lot of these systems, we have to handle this as individuals and as communities. Because the trauma is going to leave a lifelong impact for the victim. It’s never going away. And so if we say, “Well it’s been five years, why isn’t she over it yet?”
That’s just not how it works. And I do think it’s really reasonable to say, “If you perpetrated a sexual assault, The bare minimum of consequences is if you see the victim in the grocery store at your new job. You turn around and you walk out and you go to a different grocery store, you get a different job.”
This is very, very reasonable to ask for.
Anne: 100 percent,I appreciate this conversation. Nicole, I’m so grateful you’re doing this work. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk about finding a safe support group for marriage problems and victims today.
Nicole: Thank you for having me on. This has been great. These are the kinds of conversations that people need. I’m so glad I got to be here today.
Anne: Yeah, thank you.
Hailey’s Story of reporting on a campus
Anne: So now a woman we’re gonna call Haley will actually share her story of reporting on a campus. Hers is specifically related to my faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and what she experienced at BYU. But I have heard stories like this from Jewish women, from Catholic women. We see these patterns everywhere. Including in a support group for marriage problems. Welcome Haley.
Haley: Hi, thank you.
Anne: Before we start, I received my associate degree from BYU Idaho, a million years ago. And when I went there, I loved the honor code. It helped me feel safe. For example, I felt so safe that my roommates weren’t allowed to have men in our apartment after 10:00 PM. Is that what it is? I don’t even remember.
Haley: I think they bumped it up to midnight. I felt the same way as you. I chose to come to BYU because I wanted to be in a safer environment and I knew I was signing an honor code.
Anne: I appreciate that, and I want to be clear: I don’t know exactly how the honor code operates today. This won’t be an anti–honor code discussion. Instead, we’re examining how institutions implement the honor code—and how that implementation harms victims of abuse in multiple ways.
Haley: Like you mentioned, I had two run-ins with the honor code office. One my freshman year and one my senior year. And both times I was left feeling very alone, like I did something horrible.
I felt a responsibility to speak out
Haley: I felt like that my freshman year, and kept my mouth shut. Because I was embarrassed. I felt totally ashamed alone, so I kept quiet. I felt like I was in a different place when they called me in again. To put me back on probation at the end of my Senior year. I felt like it was my responsibility to speak out against what was going on.
I had to wait to speak out until I got my diploma. Initially, I started just because I wanted to see if there was anyone else out there who felt the same way I did. I knew I had a few close friends and a few close family who had been through the honor code office and were treated poorly. So I gathered all our stories together. Really, it was like a support system. Even if five people could see it and feel like they weren’t alone, that would have been good enough for me.
I know that you’re doing the same thing, allowing people to share their stories is healing for everyone. There’s something about being anonymous. You feel safe. Being able to tell other people what happened to you, and having other people say, “I am so sorry. I had no idea. I’m here for you.” I think it is healing.
Anne: Yeah, it is so healing. I’m so grateful that so many women are willing to share their stories on my podcast. And I’m grateful that you’re here sharing yours today.
The first time a perpetrator you had a restraining order against, was the one that turned you into the honor code office. And the second time it was your abusive ex-boyfriend.
experiences with the honor code office
Anne: Talk about how that felt to have the honor code office used as a weapon by abusive men.
Haley: I had moved 2,000 miles away and started school. The first time I got called in, I was told that I was called in by a man from my past who had really hurt me. It was hurtful to sit on my counselor’s couch and tell her this was years behind me. Tell her who this man is, how he made me feel, and how I was scared of him. And how I wanted to put everything that had happened 2,000 miles away in my past behind me.
I sat on her couch crying and said, “Please take my side. Please have my back. Here’s how he’s affected my life for years now, and I really need you to have my back. Especially now that I’m sitting here telling you who it was that reported me, I really need your protection.”
And she responded and said, “It didn’t matter how I got caught. What mattered was that the Holy Spirit wanted me to get caught.” As a freshman, 18 years old, I was already terrified to be in there. Sitting across from the stranger I didn’t know, asking for help. And she told me it didn’t matter. That just felt sick. It was pretty discouraging. No offers for a victim support.
And then the second time with the ex-boyfriend, it was frustrating because I told her, “Look, I have not talked to this kid in over a year. I’m so sorry for what happened. I’ve already dealt with it with my Bishop. I don’t understand why he can come in and jeopardize my future, my education and my diploma.”
Blame for the problem: parallels with help for finding a support group for marriage problems
Haley: She took his side and told me, “Well, he’s the one that came in, and he came in on his own goodwill, and you didn’t.” It was frustrating too, because he was Elder’s Quorum president at the time.
Anne: For our listeners, that is a calling within the church that puts them in charge of the men’s organization.
Haley: And she brought that up and wanted to remind me of his position in the church. And she told me that the spirit wasn’t in my home. And so it was harder for both parties to keep the commandments. So an ex-boyfriend turned me in. And having his calling thrown in my face was pretty hurtful.
Anne: Wait, so she blamed you. Because apparently the Spirit’s not in your home. I’m being sarcastic here. The reason he acted poorly is all your fault.
Haley: Right. I mean, she’s accusing me, asking if I am going to church, what my calling is, and what my relationship is with God. But she wanted to remind me of his position in church, and then put me in my place. And just for all those reasons, it was so hurtful.
Anne: That is awful. I’m so sorry. I bet you felt so validated when people started sharing their stories, and women feel that with a good support group for marriage problems as well. Because you ended up reading thousands of other victim stories about the honor code office. What were some themes that you noticed?
Theme’s in dealing with the Honor Code Office
Haley: I noticed a lot of people who don’t even want to talk to anyone about what happened, which is scary. Another theme is that when they go into that office, they feel like it is their fault. I have had so many people say, my counselor told me that this is because I did this. This is because I wore this. I said this.
Anne: If he’s using sexual coercion, getting him out of your apartment by 10:00 PM would have been almost impossible. They might say, “It’s your fault you were raped because you let him stay longer than 10:00 PM.” I mean, there are so many elements with sexual coercion. People really don’t understand.
Haley: They did try to separate the Title IX office and the Honor Code office. People are still unfortunately not reporting. Because they’re still afraid that when they go in there, somehow to get looped into the honor code office. And in a lot of cases, it still has. BYU says their policy has changed, but unfortunately, the policy is not what’s practiced.
Anne: We see that with bishops too. The policy is: We have no tolerance for abuse in the church. And yet victims say, “My husband is using pornography. He is lying to me. He’s having sex with other women.” They need an understanding of what safety looks like in a support group for marriage problems. In The Proclamation to the Family, people who engage in infidelity and abuse will be held accountable. And instead, a bishop might say, what are you doing wrong? How could you help the situation?
Have you heard any stories where the victim had a good experience going to the honor code office?
Advice for victims
Haley: I do have stories where women went in and said, “Here’s who it is, here’s what he’s done.” And BYU has expelled them. Someone that I’m very close to has a story very similar to this. Even though they expelled the man, she never heard from the honor code office again. And that’s another issue too.
If you are a woman and finally do have the courage to go tell BYU what’s going on, and let’s say best case scenario, they do kick this student out of school. I can’t speak for the whole school in general, but a lot of these students are still saying they’re not there for me. For the most part. They just don’t feel like the university in general has their back with this.
Anne: So from your own experience and from reading all these stories that you’ve received, what would you want current students who are sexual assault victims to hear?
Haley: I would first want them to know that they are not alone. I don’t know how comforting that can be for everyone, but I know at least for the people I’ve talked with, just hearing that this isn’t just happening to them. And there are other women out there who are feeling this way too. And people that you can turn to and trust and share your story with is really important. Like what happens with a good support group for marriage problems.
Overwhelming and heartwarming to connect with others in a support group for marriage problems or victims
Haley: Also, we do not want these stories to discourage students from turning in these kinds of cases. BYU does have a victim advocate that does a good job, from what I’ve been told at protecting students. I just want every sexual assault victim to know that it is not your fault, and that every time they speak up for what has happened to them, they’re speaking up for all the women behind them.
It’s been overwhelming and so heartwarming to see even other female students who will comment and DM me. Like, if this is your story, message me. I will take you out to lunch. I want to talk to you. I’m here for you. If you ever need anyone, send me a message to this Instagram. I just want them to know that there are people out there who care so much, love them, and want them to be on campus.We love the church and the school. We don’t want to leave.
Students know what they signed. So we’re not here to fight the standards on campus. We are really just looking for protection for our students within the honor code office. Something has to change.
Anne: I’m so grateful for you sharing your story and grateful for anyone willing to have an ongoing layered conversation about these topics and finding a safe support group for marriage problems.ƒ It’s not like we just talk about this issue once and then it goes away, right? It has to be an ongoing layered conversation in order to make meaningful change.
Haley: Right. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was so good to talk with you. I would love to meet you one day. I really enjoyed our conversations.
How To Help The Child Of A Narcissist, 5 Ways – Rose’s Story
Mar 26, 2024
Are you losing sleep worrying about the harm that your narcissistic husband or ex is causing you child? Here’s 5 ways to help the child of a narcissist if you’re desperate to protect your child from the toxic influence of a narcissistic father?
Invite people into your circle who can support your children.
Learn how to use effective strategies and boundaries.
Knowing that not having contact with an abuser is best.
Create peace inside of yourself.
Transcript: 5 Ways To Help The Child Of A Narcissist
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Rose. She reached out to me and wanted to know how narcissism affects children. So I invited her to come on the podcast and share her story. As she shares her story, I’m going to point out five ways to help the child of a narcissist.
Welcome Rose.
Rose: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here today.
Anne: We’re grateful that you would take the time to reach out.
First Way To Help The Child Of A Narcissist: Learn Why The Narcissist Does What He Does.
Anne: So Rose, before you understood that your husband and then ex was a narcissist. What was going on in your home and with your kids?
Rose: To start the story, I probably should have never married him in the first place. Unfortunately, I met him when I was 18, so I didn’t know anything about narcissistic people. He broke up with me a lot of times while we were dating. And I’m not sure why I stayed with him. I think I’m sort of a helping type personality. So I guess I felt like I could fix him or change him so that he treated people with kindness and respect.
Anne: That’s so common for victims of narcissistic abuse, because narcissists groom victims so well they don’t understand what’s going on.
So that is the first way to help the child of a narcissist: To learn why the narcissist does what he does.
That’s why I wrote the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to explain in detail. Why the narcissist does what he does. Often people think the solution is just getting to know them better and spending more time. While you’re dating, but narcissists are so good at manipulation and hiding who they are. That women can even be married to a narcissistic husband for 5, 10, 15, even 40 years, and not recognize what they’re looking at.
If they don’t know what to look for. So that’s the first way. Learn about why narcissists do what they do.
Rose’s Marriage & Realizations
Anne: Rose, in your case, can you talk about how long you were with him before you marry and the length of your marriage? And what behaviors tipped you off that something was wrong?
Rose: We dated for five years. Then we were married for 18. He didn’t help much with the kids. He was always angry. I saw the effects of his yelling on the kids. They were afraid of him. And never knew when he was going to blow up. They were afraid of men. It was like walking on eggshells. And I really didn’t trust him around the children. Honestly, like if he watched TV, he wouldn’t be watching the children.
I started realizing it wasn’t a healthy relationship, probably when the kids entered kindergarten. That somehow I needed to get out of there, and I wasn’t sure how. I had no relatives around, so it was really hard for me. I didn’t even consider it for a long time. But then one night he got really, really angry with the kids for breaking something. And when I tried to intervene, he almost threw a screwdriver at me. That was the breaking point.
So I took my kids, I took some clothes and photography equipment, and left. Unfortunately, we stayed in the same neighborhood as him. Because I wanted to keep everything the same for the kids, I found a teaching job. But over the next couple of years, it was a struggle for me to teach full-time and help my children get the support and help they needed. Because all three of them had issues, and probably their biggest issue is self esteem, relating to being a child of a narcissist.
Low Self-Esteem For A Child Of A Narcissist
Anne: Talk about why his behavior affected their self-esteem, the types of things that a child of a narcissist would experience, and then how they reacted to it and internalized it.
Rose: Well, as a narcissist, he was always right. He did not listen to anything they said. He would call them names and belittle them. If they had a problem, he would just ignore it, or he would make them feel bad for even having a problem. I remember one time my middle daughter had lice, and he literally just ripped the comb through her hair. He was so angry at her for having that, trying to get the little nits out of her head, and just ripped out her hair in the process.
You never knew what was going to set him off. Because of that, they all have low self-esteem, because they can never win over his trust and never had his support. My two oldest daughters used to play field hockey, and he never wanted them to play on a travel team. Once we separated, he wouldn’t go to their games. He refused to pay for any of that.
He still really doesn’t go to their games. They just knew that he did not support them. If they got a good grade on a paper, even now, if they make the honor roll or they’re in all honors classes, they don’t even tell him because they know he just really doesn’t care.
Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. Poor kids. That is so heartbreaking. Yeah, when you face this with your kids, knowing why they do what they do is key. Because if you know why the narcissist is acting this way toward your children, it can help you know what to do.
So, again, the number one way to help the child of a narcissist is to learn why that narcissist is acting the way he is. And again, the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop takes women through that step-by-step, so that you know exactly what’s going on.
And you’re just now learning about the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, which I’m so excited for you to go through. Now that you’ll have access, let’s talk about the things that you felt like you succeeded at, even without knowing strategy. What did you find helpful?
Second Way To Help A Child Of A Narcissist: Invite People Into Your Circle Who Can Support Your Children
Rose: I work as a teacher in a city school. And so I work with children who have been abused mentally and physically, and I’ve had some trauma training. One of the biggest things we learned is that when the kids come in, no matter what their age, if they have had a rough night, they might need to talk to somebody, or they might need to take a nap, or whatever they’re dealing with, you as a teacher need to realize.
Hey, something happened with this child. They might not be up to steam today to do this, that, and the other thing. And so if my kids had an issue with their dad, and it was something that had made them cry the whole night before, or just out of sorts, for whatever reason, I would email their teacher and let them know.
“Hey, this is happening with their dad. Can you please keep your eye out, are they okay?” I would ask if they need to talk to somebody, like a therapist at school. Even in high school, I did that.
https://youtube.com/shorts/tOMv_cos0vE
Anne: So this is the second way to help the child of a narcissist. I’m going to talk about strategy in a minute. because when you do it, you need to do it strategically. One of the things I found problematic was when my children described to people the abuse that they were experiencing.
Challenges With External Support
Anne: Some people would respond by saying to my children. “Oh, well, your dad loves you very much.” And I was like, please don’t tell my children that the abuser loves them, because I don’t want them confused about what love feels like. So I would say, “Oh, you are absolutely lovable, but I’m so sorry. He’s not capable of love. That’s not what love should look like or feel like.”
Having adults who understand that around your kids, so that they can support them to help them know. “It’s not, you. You are a wonderful, awesome kid. Your dad has some brain problems, and he’s not capable of seeing how amazing you are.”
The second way to help the child of a narcissist is to invite people into your circle who can support your children. But only invite the people who understand this type of abuse. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop has a section about how to find healthy people to help your kids. It includes step-by-step instructions about how to find these safe people, because we’ve all experienced when unsafe, unhealthy people make it worse for our kids.
How old are your kids now?
Rose: They’re 18, 16, and 13. They’re supposed to see him every other weekend, but the 18 year old now is off on her own at college, and once they turn 18 where I live, they don’t have to have a set schedule. My middle daughter is supposed to go every other weekend, but she hasn’t gone in months because she has a job, and she makes sure that she’s working on those weekends.
Preferential Treatment Of One Child
Rose: Now, my son is the golden child. The narcissist usually has a golden child. So I think he is the one that my ex-husband feels closest to. And so he treats him the best. He buys him things, and so he still goes because he’s only 13 and can’t drive yet or anything. But my daughter, who went to college, she’s 18, my ex-husband, didn’t pay for anything.
He didn’t pay for anything for the dorm room, he didn’t buy any books. He told her he’s just not paying for any of it, and he’s not. So it’s like he’s just dropped her, he doesn’t support her in any way. Which of course still affects her self-esteem.
Anne: Yeah. And that goes back to the number one way to help the child of a narcissist. Because if you understand that they just discard anyone, who’s not “useful” to them.
So when a narcissist dad can use his child to make himself look good. And take them to church, and everyone at church thinks he’s a good dad, or take them to a family party, or even just to the grocery store. He can just walk up and down the aisle with this kid, and people smile and tell him, “Oh, you’re such a good dad.” Then great, he’s got a use for them.
But when he perceives that the children aren’t useful for his image or aren’t useful in some other way, he loses interest in his own children or anyone else really quickly.
Third Way To Help The Child Of A Narcissist: Learn How To Use Effective Strategies and Boundaries
Rose: Right. It affects the children. I just feel so bad for any children of a narcissistic parent. Because I see what my kids are going through, and they all have anxiety, all three of them. It’s a long road ahead, because all three are people pleasers. They’re just dying for his attention. Which makes me sad.
Anne: It is sad. It’s heartbreaking to see these kids try to get blood out of a turnip. Yeah. So the third way to help the children of a narcissist is to learn how to use effective strategies and boundaries. So back when my children were dealing with their father’s narcissistic abuse, I was praying and praying because I’ve experienced his post divorce abuse for eight years. And my children were also being abused this whole time. I was fighting a narcissist for custody. It was horrific.
So in my prayers, I asked the question. What strategies do I need to know and implement that will completely deliver my children from this abuse and also deliver me? And this is actually where the strategies I teach in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshopcame from. back before I put them into the workshop. When I discovered them, I implemented the strategies. And they worked. It was like a miracle.
I was able to completely deliver my children from his narcissistic abuse. That was eight years post divorce. So it took me a while to figure it out. And then I was like, is this just a fluke? Is this just me? So I tested the strategies with other Sheroes to see if it would work with them. And we were able to duplicate that success. The women I worked with reported back to me that these strategies helped them.
Rose’s Experience With Boundaries
Anne: So even though you don’t know the strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop yet. Can you talk about your own experiments with boundaries so far?
Rose: I did not have boundaries. I am so sad to say that I did not even realize what boundaries were until a couple of years after I left him. I was just kind of in a fog. After you deal with a narcissist for a while, you just are dead inside. I just try to not let him upset me. But what’s happened is that he won’t respond to anything, a text, an email, nothing. And so if there’s a problem with the children, it has to go through my son .
With my oldest daughter, especially when he ignores her or attempts to manipulate her, we have very open communication in our family. And so all three kids talk to me all the time, and especially about him, if they have an issue or problem. And so I will flat out tell her, look, he’s trying to manipulate you. You need to stick to whatever your original plan was, or tell him how you feel. And sometimes he won’t respond to her.
Anne: Yeah, that’s why the third way to help your children when dealing with a narcissist is to have boundaries yourself. So that they can see your example and see boundaries in action. Because time and time again, narcissists continue to try to hurt us. They never give up trying to cause chaos and harm.
Rose: How do you deal with that?
Handling Abusive Communication
Rose: Like when my ex-husband actually sends me something, it usually sets me off, because either the tone or whatever he’s saying, it’s not nice. When you hear those lies, how do you not get upset about it?
Anne: It makes sense that it sets you off, because when he sends that, it’s actually another abuse episode. The intent is to hurt you. It’s impossible not to be harmed when you’re being abused. And that’s what’s happening. Your desire to prove what’s true. To confront him about all his lies. That is the most natural form of resistance to abuse. So you’ve historically been doing everything right, because the entire time you’ve been resisting his abuse.
You just didn’t understand that there were things that were a little more effective, but I don’t want you to blame yourself, because you’ve always been resisting the abuse. You’ve always been trying to protect yourself. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop covers the different ways of thinking about the situation to shield your mind and your emotions from the harm. And the strategic ways to respond to these messages.
Yeah, but the answer is if he’s still using his messages to abuse you, which is exactly what’s happening in your case. You’re going to be harmed every single time. There’s no way to be abused and not be harmed.
Fourth Way To Help A Child Of A Narcissist: Knowing That Not Having Contact With An Abuser Is Best
Anne: Does that resonate with your experience?
Rose: Yeah, he did a lot of gaslighting. So something would happen. He would deny it, and I would keep fighting to get him to say, Oh, okay. I see your side. Yeah, you’re right. But of course, that never happened. And I’m still kind of like that. I want him to acknowledge the truth and it really drives me crazy. It really upsets me.
Anne: Totally, totally. The strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop help ground you in reality. Women say it’s night and day difference between that and what they were trying to do before.
Rose: Right, well, I could do that if he actually contacted me, but. It’s more like the opposite, where I need him to pay a bill. And so I will send it to him or email him about it. And he just doesn’t respond.
Anne: So this is the fourth way to help the child of a narcissist. It’s knowing in your heart that not having contact with an abuser is better. Even though it’s common to think, I want him involved. I want him to contribute. That’s always going to bring abuse with it. So that fourth way to help the children of a narcissist is to realize they’re actually better off with him not writing back and leaving you alone. Then they would cause all the chaos, because they can’t be involved in a peaceful way.
This leads to the fifth way to help the child of a narcissist.
Fifth Way To Help The Child Of A Narcissist: Create Peace Inside Of Yourself
Anne: The fifth way to help the child of a narcissist is to create peace inside of yourself. No matter what’s happening outside of you no matter what he’s doing, and this is impossible to do. When he’s abusing you because he wants to affect you. We talked about that a little earlier. So, this is how to get rid of that inside of yourself.
I remember way back when, before my kids were delivered, At the time I thought, you know, things are getting better. They’re improving. I was feeling good inside. I was feeling peace. And he picked them up for their weekend with him. I was looking forward to a wonderful weekend. And I had a wonderful weekend. When they returned home, they were devastated. They told me a horrific story about how he lied to them the whole weekend.
He tried to manipulate them, harassed them, and kept talking about me in ways they knew were not true. It was upsetting to them. I was feeling so peaceful and good. And I thought things were maybe getting better. Then he, maybe energetically, could feel how peaceful I was feeling and just wanted to drum up chaos. Now I know exactly why narcissists choose to do this.
But this was back before, and as I thought and pondered why. One of my questions was can I create peacefulness inside myself despite what he’s doing?
Creating Peace Despite Chaos For A Children Of A Narcissist
Anne: And so that’s actually one of the strategies to create peace on the inside to deliver our own emotions from the chaos. And that’s why I wrote the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. It was to get rid of his voice in my head. and get rid of the trauma in my body. And I actually wrote those meditations for myself, because I couldn’t find meditations anywhere else that fit our situation exactly.
When I say our, I mean, women who were going through this. So those meditations helped me so much. I wanted to make them available to everyone. That helped me rid the trauma of my body so that I was more capable and calm to find safe people to rely on.
Rose: I’m trying that tonight, yeah.
Building Self-Esteem In Children
Rose: I would like to bring up all their self-esteem and let them know that they’re worthy. My oldest daughter especially doesn’t feel good about herself. And I wish she would feel good about herself. She had been struggling with this for so long that I knew before she went to college, I needed to help her figure out what was going on. He refused to pay for those bills.
And how do you think that makes her feel? Once again, he’s not supporting her, lowers her confidence and just makes her feel like, why doesn’t dad support me? I just say, I don’t know. I wish he would. And my middle daughter too. She has a lot of anger. She did. She’s getting better now that she’s 16, but she also has low self-esteem.
And my son too, I just wish that they knew how worthy they were of other people’s love and that they didn’t have to be people pleasers to have people like them. That they should be able to be who they are and, they’ll find other people that, have common interests and be friends.
Anne: Now that you have access to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery workshop, hopefully that will help build that up on the inside to strengthen your internal defenses, and hopefully the kids’ internal defenses stronger.
Focusing On Positive Relationships
Anne: I heard this motivational speaker say this a long time ago. She said, “Two out of 10 people will not like you. So never, ever worry about those two people.” Many people spend all their time and energy focused on the two people who don’t like them, so they miss all the love, happiness, and peace they could get from the eight out of the ten people. So only spend your time and energy on the 8 out of the 10 safe people.
In my case, that’s probably more like six out of 10 people don’t like me. So I focus on the four people that do, and I don’t worry about the other six. And I find the peace and safety here with my tribe. I’m grateful for our listeners, who apparently like me because they listen. So I’m so thankful and honored that you listen to this podcast.
I have found so much peace there, and I think that’s good for children to know too. They have to deal with many issues because they are a children of a narcissist. Like, there’s always a situation where someone doesn’t like you. In your case, it’s your dad. Let’s focus on people who like you. Your grandma, your friend, your neighbor, like, all these other people are worth your time and energy.
Rose: Oh, I know. I have found that some of my friend’s husbands. Or the kid’s friend’s husbands, have been wonderful role models for my kids and also coaches. I’ve had some amazing coaches and dads step up and take my kids under their wing. So they can see what a person who doesn’t lie or a person who isn’t a narcissist looks like.
Finding Help For Your Children
Anne: Yeah, being around safe people is one of the best ways to help our kids understand who is safe and who is not. Every child of a narcissist needs help.
Rose: Right. Hopefully open their eyes. It took so long for me to see. It takes a long time.
Anne: Agreed, especially when you’re just poking around in the dark. Trying things that you think might work, but you don’t know exactly if they will work or not. They haven’t been tested. My hope is that women learn the strategies I teach in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. And when they create peace inside themselves, maybe through the meditations in the workshop.
Then it won’t be so much work, because these strategies and tools are so effective.
Rose, thank you for reaching out to me. So many women have these same questions. I appreciate your bravery to come on and talk about it. And if any of you listening are interested in talking about the issues you’re facing. You don’t have to have the answers, you don’t have to have it resolved. You don’t need to know what to do to share your story.
This podcast is about sharing where we are right now. So the other women know they’re not alone and that we’re all going through this together. Thank you so much for talking to me today, Rose.
Rose: You’re welcome. Your podcasts have helped me so much. Thanks for having me.
Can My Husband Change? 9 Crucial Patterns To Watch For
Mar 19, 2024
Many women desperately want to know, “Can my husband change?” The short answer is yes. The long answer is, it’s extremely complicated. If you’re interested in observing from a place of emotional safety to see if this will happen, you’ll need strategies to keep you emotionally safe.
We understand the deep desire to have a peaceful home. Anne shares that once you’ve established emotional safety, here are the 9 signs to watch for to see if your husband is changing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf3qujhSwdk
9 Signs Your Husband Can Change
If you’re looking for signs your husband can change, this is what you’d be looking for. Without any prompting from you, a therapist, or anyone else, has your husband
Acknowledged his lies and manipulation?
Admitted all of it was a choice he made. And that he made that wrong choice over and over?
Explained all the ways he used false justifications?
Stopped denying and minimizing?
Shown empathy naturally, without being taught by a therapist, prompted, or reading a script?
Proven through his actions and words that your needs are equal to his?
Begun making a living amends for all the damage he’s caused, and he continues to make amends for years. He continually brings up the damage he’s caused to you, asks about how you’re feeling and what he can do for you. Then he follows through and does what you ask. It’s something he brings up often?
Accepted the consequences of his behavior?
Given up his exploitative privilege?
9 Signs Your Husband Isn’t Changing, He…
Criticizes you for considering him capable of behaving abusively (even though he has been abusive).
Reminds you about the bad things he would have done in the past, but isn’t doing any more, which amounts to threatening you.
Tells you that you’re taking too long to make up your mind. And that he “can’t” wait forever. Which amounts a threat. Which is coercion.
Blames his behavior, the situation or his choices on you, even in the most subtle way.
Says “I’m changing” to get you to do something you feel uncomfortable about.
Claims he can only change if you change too.
Whines that you need to help him change by giving him emotional support. Or anything else that makes his non-abusiveness dependent on you.
Criticizes you for not realizing how much he’s changed.
Condemns you if you doubt the change will last.
Transcript: Can My Husband Change? 9 Things To Observe
Anne: So it’s just me today, and I’m here to admit that I believe people can change. If someone decides to become a different person, they can change their character through choices and actions. Because I believe people can change, and so do most victims. The most common thing in the world for a victim to do is wonder or ask, “Can my husband change?” Or even “What are the signs my husband changing?”
We often ask these questions long before we even wonder what’s going on with him. And so we might talk to him about what’s going on, or we might go to couple therapy.
Because psychologically abusive husbands are expert manipulators. He’s been manipulating us and everyone around him for years. So there’s only one way to know if he’s actually changing, and that’s observing his actions from a safe distance.
Because when we confront our husband about his behavior, he’s going to kick his manipulation into high gear. And at this point, they’re either going to be very threatening, angry and scary. Which is the most obvious sign that he’s not changing. Or they may manipulate us in a way that feels good to us.
False Promises & Therapy
Anne: This could include committing, never to do it again. When really, he just means he’s going to hide it better. Often they promise to start going to therapy, and they actually go to therapy, but that doesn’t help. That just means he’s an abusive man going to therapy time and time again. We see that therapy does not help an abusive man change. More often, it just solidifies the justifications he’s used for being abusive.
He might promise to attend 12-step. He might even start attending 12 step meetings. But again, going to 12-step therapy is not a sign that he’s changing or even willing to change. It’s only a sign that he’s going to therapy or 12-step, that’s it. He might even partially or fully admit to what he’s done and the hurt he’s caused you, and apologize.
But are his actions changing? Saying I can change or want to change is not the same as actual change. And if he has not changed. And it’s not safe to treat him as if he’s safe, because you deserve safety.
The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop is the best guide for teaching you how to establish safety without talking to him about his behavior. You can then observe from a safe distance to see if he’s doing any of these nine things on his own, without you showing him this list, without you bringing any of this up. Let me share a part of my story with you.
Personal Story: Seven Years Of False Change
Anne: For seven years. I thought my husband was willing to “change” and I thought he was changing. He was getting better and better at grooming over time. He was really holding me back. The therapy he was going to was increasing his ability to use therapy – speak and sound healthier when he wasn’t actually healthy. After seven years of doing this, he sprained my fingers and was arrested for domestic violence.
When I met with my victim advocate. I told her, “My husband isn’t the typical abuser. He cares so much about me. He cares about our family. If anyone can change, he can.” Now note I’m saying this after he’s been “changing” already for seven years and hadn’t changed at all. In fact, he was worse. I had even wondered if my husband had an anger problem. https://www.btr.org/husband-have-an-anger-problem/
She looked at me like, “Wow, you have a lot to learn.” And she advised me to learn about abuse. But I was nervous, because I thought he needed to fix a few things. As I learned more and more, I learned he was the typical abuser, and it was shocking and heartbreaking.
Observing Without Interaction
Anne: At that point, I decided to take a step back, stop seeking safety through managing his therapy, and observe him from a safe distance without talking to him. And as I did that. I absolutely could see with my own eyes. That he was not doing any of these nine things.
And before I share them with you, it’s super, super important that you do not give this to your husband. That you don’t listen to this episode and think, “Oh, my word, I have to have my husband listen to this. I’m going to give it to him.” if you tell them to do these things, and he does them, that’s just more manipulation.
These are things he must do on his own, without knowing about them. So as I share these with you, I’ll share parts of my own story. So you can see how I could observe these from a safe distance, without talking to my husband about them. Now I know so many of you are still in the same home with him. And so you might think, well, this doesn’t apply to me because I’m still in the same home.
In my workshop. I teach women how to separate themselves emotionally from him. Even if you’re living in the same home, it’s basically how to separate yourself from his false reality manufactured for you. So that you can live in reality and observe from reality.
So these examples are from my particular situation. Where I had a protective order and didn’t talk to him, but they work in any situation. So keep that in mind.
1st Sign Your Husband Is Changing: Acknowledging Lies & Manipulation
Anne: These are the nine signs your husband is changing, without you talking to him at all.
Number one, he identifies through his actions all the lies, infidelity, manipulation, and coercion. Also directly tells you that it was wrong for him to choose to do that with no excuses. This includes acknowledging through his actions that every lie, every time he manipulated your emotions, and every time he coerced you to do something, he knew it wasn’t good for you. But he chose to do it anyway. This includes your husband lying about small things.
In my case, I wasn’t talking to him because I had a protective order. Instead of identifying all the lies, infidelity, manipulation, and directly telling me and other people that it was wrong for him to choose that. He was lying about what happened. He told people it was an accident, when I knew that was not the case.
People would talk to me and say, hey, I talked to Chuck, I’m going to call him Chuck. I talked to Chuck and he said, this, this and this. None of it was true. All of it showed that he definitely did not identify infidelity, manipulation and coercion, and tell anybody it was wrong. In fact, he was trying to get them to gaslight me from afar.
2nd Sign Your Husband Can Change: Acknowledge Choices
Anne: Okay. Number two. Acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control. Not a result of an addiction, not caused by something else, and that he did it to maintain control over your perceptions of him from the beginning. As my husband told people why he was not living in the home anymore. Why he lived at his grandparents’ house.
He never mentioned any of the traumatic things he did before. He never acknowledged that all his behavior was a choice, including when he lied to me about his porn use before we got married. And didn’t say a word of it to anybody else. Instead, he kept saying “She won’t talk to me. How am I supposed to improve our marriage if she won’t talk to me.”
He never actually said to them why I would not talk to him. That was a huge clue to me that he was not changing.
3rd Sign Your Husband Can Change: Explaining Justifications
Anne: Number three, explaining to you and everyone else in great detail how all the reasons used to justify his choice to abuse you were lies. That would include admitting that blaming you for any of it was also manipulation. That would include reevaluating his distorted image of you. Including his tendency to focus on and exaggerate your weaknesses, and his grievances against you. And setting the record straight with anyone he’s misled about you.
So that means telling you and every single person around him the truth about all the lies, excuses, and reasons he’s used to cover up all the lies, excuses, and reasons. They lie initially, and then they lie to cover it up. So this is uncovering all those things, and he would fully admit all that to you and everybody around you.
In my case, he just kept focusing on my weaknesses and his grievances against me. And they kept growing and growing. At first, I was just controlling. Then I became a liar, then abusive, and then I was an emotional blackmailer. I mean, I just became worse and worse over time.
He wasn’t saying, “Hey all these years, I’ve made her seem like she was a little intense. When she was reacting perfectly for what I was putting her through.” So I knew he was digging deeper to his exploitative privilege. And people believed him, especially his family. It was like a horror show. Most abusive husbands don’t make it past step three. But if they do those three things, here are the other six things they would also need to do.
4th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Stops Denying & Minimizing
Anne: Number 4, stop denying and minimizing all of it. Including discrediting your memories and perceptions about what happened. So he would say, “I discredited your memory and perception to manipulate you to not believe reality.” He would say something like that to you and everybody around you. Now, if you’re thinking at this point, “He would never do that. I would definitely need to get him to the right therapist to teach them how to do this.”
He’s not changing. That’s the answer. They don’t need to go to therapy. They don’t need someone to tell them. People have told them don’t lie, have integrity, don’t manipulate people and be honest. They don’t need a therapist to tell them this. They know how to do the right thing they choose not to, because their exploitative privilege brings benefits to them, and they do not want to give those up.
So if right now, while I’m listing these out, you’re thinking he would never do that. Someone would have to teach him or get him to do it. That is your answer. That is your husband’s character. And he chose this character. From all the little choices he makes every day. Until this is who he is.
I remember this phase of trying to get to safety so well. I was resisting abuse by thinking my husband didn’t know better. And so we went to so much therapy. We went to pornography addiction recovery. I got him into all the best programs. He loved the idea of me thinking he just needed help. Because that kept me trapped.
He did not want me to know that he already knew. That’s so hard. Especially when he’s manipulated us and lied to us to make us believe he’s somebody different.
5th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Showing Empathy
Anne: Number five is shown in great detail through his actions, how his emotional, psychological, sexual, financial, and physical abuse affected you and your children. And shown empathy about how much he harmed you, without mentioning how hard it’s been for him. Without mentioning anything about himself.
So as I am waiting from a safe distance to see if my husband is changing. He’s talking with friends and family. They reported back to me that as he talked with him. He talked all about how he was having such a hard time, how he was depressed. How he was trying so hard and I wouldn’t help him. But he never once asked them how I was doing. If I was okay or if I needed anything.
One time he did message me because he was messaging me about the kids. And said, what can I do? My daughter had lost her earring when she was with him. And I said, “Pay for the $20 earring she lost at your house.” And he went on a big rant about how she shouldn’t have got her ears pierced. When she had her ears pierced three years before that. And he never said a word about it at that time. So I was like, he won’t even pay for an earring.
Examples Of Lack Of Empathy
Anne: Because I wasn’t doing anything for him at all. I was just observing from a safe distance. He told one person, “She’s literally doing nothing. She does nothing all day.” He didn’t realize what he was saying because he wasn’t parenting the kids. He wasn’t looking after the house. I was single parenting, three young children ages six, three, and one by myself. All the childcare, all the bill paying, everything.
And then he shut down my bank accounts. So I was also making sure that we had food, making sure that we were taken care of. I was doing so much. And for him to tell someone, “She literally does nothing all day.” Was an indication to me that it was just about him. He had no sense of who I was separate from him. Because I wasn’t doing anything for him.
He perceived that I wasn’t doing anything at all. All this to say, He was constantly telling people how he felt and what he was going through. Never seemed concerned about what I was going through and how I was doing.
6th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Your Needs Are Equal To His
Anne: Number six demonstrates that you have rights and they are equal to his. So if he’s complained all the time about how his sexual needs aren’t being met at this time. He would say something like “I realized you have the right to not have sex and you have the need not to have sex. And that’s just as equal as my desire to have sex. We are equal. I don’t know how to resolve it. But because they’re equal. I can’t trump you.”
This actually reminds me of the first time I found out that he was using pornography. And he was in pornography addiction, recovery, and he told me he was changing and I was believing him at the time. So this was years before his arrest. He said, “Hey, I have a right to privacy. And so I don’t want you to tell people that I’ve been using pornography.”
And I said, “I have a right to tell people the truth. So we’re even.” Instead of saying, “Oh, that’s a good point, sounds good.” No, he got extremely angry, because his right to “privacy” was apparently more important than my right to tell people the truth. So if he still thinks his rights are more important than yours, that’s a sign your husband isn’t changing.
All right now we’re at number seven. This is the seventh sign.
7th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Living Amends For The Damages He Caused You
Anne: All right now, we’re at number seven. This is the seventh sign your husband is changing. If he were changing, he would make constant living amends for the damages he caused you, consistently being kind and supportive and putting your needs before his own across the board for at least five years. And that’s a long time. So what you’re observing from a safe distance is new patterns over time, but for a long time. And you can wait at a safe distance for as long as you need to.
I waited for nine months, not talking with my husband at all, observing. And rather than making amends and making sure I was supported. He escalated to get me to let him back in the house, like, “Well, if she won’t let me back in the house, I’ll cut off her access to money and then she’ll have to talk to me.”
I just stayed safe. Because him doing that was a sign he wasn’t safe. So I wasn’t going to be like, “Oh, great. He’s cut off my access to money that shows me he’s safe enough to talk to.” No, no, no. I knew exactly what he was doing, and I did not want to put myself in the position for him to harm me even more. Him cutting off my access to money was harm in and of itself.
Examples Of Living Amends
Anne: But me going to him and asking him for money would put me in a position to manipulate me, to groom me. And that scared me to death. I thought a person who is good and kind will know that I am a single mom of three tiny kids who hasn’t worked in a few years. I’m going to need money. Like any normal person would know that. So him putting me in a position where his own children might not be fed was horrifying.
He didn’t care about our basic needs, or our physical safety. And I wasn’t going to rely on someone who legit was willing to harm me and let us starve. I was not going to go to THAT guy for grocery money. Instead, I actually got food stamps. I got food from the food pantry. I was able to get on a few government programs that helped me significantly through that time, so that I didn’t have to rely on someone who would use food to harm me.
8th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Accepting Consequences
Anne: Number 8, a sign your husband is changing would be if he had stopped whining about or blaming you for the problems that are the result of his abuse. Such as financial problems you might have because maybe you’re separated. Or your loss of desire to be sexual with him, or the children’s tendency to prefer you. He would need to realize that everything related to the current situation is the consequence of his own choices. And not your response to his abuse.
My ex kept posting on Facebook during this time that he was going through this trial, this very difficult time in his life. And he could use prayers and that his wife had made these choices that were affecting him. And he was doing everything he could. Which he wasn’t doing anything, but he told everybody that. He wasn’t saying because of my abuse, my wife kicked me out of the house, which makes sense.
And now all the problems I have are related to my choices. Nope, he never said that.
9th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Giving Up Privileges
Anne: And number nine, he’s given up his privileges and said goodbye to double standards, including flirting with other women or leaving without telling you where he’s going. Avoiding childcare, avoiding housework, et cetera, et etera. That he sees you as an equal. So for me, as I’m observing at a safe distance. He is telling everyone, “She’s not doing anything. She sits around and does nothing all day. And I am working so hard for the relationship.”
But I could see from my safe distance what he was doing. Like I said, he shut down my bank accounts. And then he used that money to buy an expensive rally car. He went to a week-long handgun camp. To improve his skill with a handgun. He was going to a singles congregation picking up on women, even though he hadn’t filed for divorce. So I didn’t see any of those nine signs that my husband was changing at all.
Again, If you’re still living in the same home, you can still do the workshop strategies to observe from a safe distance. That is your best bet to knowing what is going on. It’s also the safest for you. These men are really calculating and scary. And you want to be careful, because the coercive control is so intense. It’s very difficult to see reality. If we tip them off, we suspect them. They’ll just kick their grooming into high gear.
9 Signs Of No Change
Anne: And then you can read the transcription that will have all the nine signs your husband is changing listed.
So now I’m going to share nine signs, your husband isn’t changing. Number 1, he criticizes you for considering him capable of behaving abusively, even though he’s been abusive. Like, how could I ever do that? I would never do that. You don’t have to confront him. You don’t have to say, “Hey, you were abusive.” You just need to watch him, if he says something like, “Oh, I would never do that.” When you know he has, that’s a sign.
Number 3, your husband tells you that you’re taking too long to make up your mind. And then he can’t wait forever. That’s coercion. It reminds me of when we were separated, and I was just waiting and observing from a safe distance. He shared his thoughts with people around us.
Blaming His Actions On Addiction Shows No Change
They were none of the things on that list of nine things he would do if he’s changing. But on this one, that can’t wait forever. My ex is an attorney. He only spent one night in jail, and then he bailed himself out and went to stay with his grandparents. And he made sure that I heard through the grapevine that if I didn’t let him back into the house, he would get his own apartment. He basically threatened, if she doesn’t talk to me, I’m going to get my own apartment.
And I was like, okay, go ahead and get your own apartment. Kind of like, I can’t wait forever. That was definitely a sign that he wasn’t changing.
So number 4, if he blames his behavior, the situation or his choices on you in any way, or something else like his addiction or something.
Number 5, he says I’m changing, but you don’t feel it at all.
Number 6, he says he can only change if you change too. So that sounds like, “Well, I’m willing to not yell at you anymore, but this isn’t going to work. If you keep nagging me.”
Number 7, your husband says you need to help him change by giving him emotional support. Or anything else that makes him dependent on you. Right now, I’m aware of a client at Betrayal Trauma Recovery whose ex-husband manipulates the kids by saying, “I need to be back with your mom, because she makes me a better person. Without her, I’m not a good dad.”
He Pressures You To Trust Him Again
Anne: So then the kids come home and say, “He just needs you, you make him a better person.” That is a serious sign that he is not changing. If he says he can’t be a decent person without you. Like yikes!
Number 8, you know, your husband is not changing if he criticizes you for not realizing how much he’s changed. But he hasn’t changed.
And number 9, if you don’t trust that as changes will last, and he criticizes you. Those are nine signs that he’s not changing.
Before you do anything about this list, please enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop, so you know how to get to emotional safety without having to talk to him about it. It does not mean divorce. That’s not what it means. It means creating some space between you and him emotionally, so that you can start seeing what is happening. Then from that safe distance you can observe.
Without saying anything to him, Is he doing any of these things? Because if you’ve told him to do it, and then he does it, we know a hundred percent of that is grooming and manipulation.
Finding The Truth & Living Free
Anne: When I did my observation from a safe distance, I almost crawled out of my skin. It was so painful. It was so hard. I kept thinking he needs a therapist. Explain it to him. Like, he’s not going to get it. I didn’t realize back then that he had heard it from so many places, church and just general society.
Pretty much everyone knows you shouldn’t lie to your wife, but he was still lying to me. He didn’t need a therapist. He just needed to stop lying to me. But I really genuinely thought he couldn’t do it. Now I’ve observed him over the last 10 years since I have divorced my abusive husband, and he continues to be this way.
Now I’m very comfortable with saying, oh, this is who he is. And this is who he’s chosen to be. But back in the day, when I tried to decide, is he safe? Can he change? It was absolutely the most uncomfortable, painful, difficult thing.
The Living Free Workshop will give you some thought strategies to reduce the pain a little bit. It’s still going to be painful and hard, but so you can get through that difficult time of observing to see what his character truly is like.
And then our coaches are always here to help you. If you’re trying to figure out like, is he changing?
Is My Husband Emotionally Abusive? – Brandi’s Story
Mar 12, 2024
Like many women, Brandi found herself asking, “Is my husband emotionally abusive?” The ramifications of learning this can seem overwhelming.
To find out if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
1. Your Husband Is Emotionally Abusive If He Lies
Emotional abuse victims state that his constant lying is one of the worst parts of his emotional abuse.
Lies are emotionally abusive, because hiding the truth from you is one way he manipulates your emotions. This emotional manipulation is calculated to control the narrative and maintain his ability to exploit you.
Lying is not just stating the opposite of something you know to be true. There are many different kinds of lies that emotionally abusive husband’s use:
Lies of commission: this is a lie that is blatant. “I didn’t use pornography yesterday” (when he did use pornography yesterday).
Lies of omission: he used pornography yesterday, you didn’t ask or discover anything to ask about, and he didn’t disclose it to you. This is a form of lying just as serious as a lie of commission. It is also marital coercion.
Detraction: this is a powerful and manipulative form of lying. This involves telling some of the truth while also inserting some kind of emotion that detracts from what he has just said. “I only used pornography for an hour yesterday. Aren’t you proud of me? I was so excited to tell you because that’s the shortest amount of time I’ve ever used it and I’m making progress. I’m going to call my sponsor, I know he’ll be so happy for me, just like you are!”
Fine-Grain lies: he knows what you are asking, because he intentionally withholds the truth: “I didn’t use pornography yesterday.” (when he did use it TODAY).
Exaggeration: yes, exaggeration in the hands of an emotional abuser is absolutely a form of lying. It’s a way to dumb down the abusive behavior and withhold important truth from the partner. “I only used pornography for ten minutes yesterday” (when he used it for hours).
Any other form of manipulation or withholding of truth. When your partner says or does anything to deceive you from knowing or fully understanding the entire truth, he’s lying to you. Any time that he obstructs you from discerning the truth, he is lying to you. Lying, in and of itself, is emotional abuse.
2. Blaming: What Your Husband Uses to Emotionally Abuse You
After discovering betrayal, women will often look at themselves to determine what they did to cause the betrayal.
An emotionally abusive husband will use this as an opportunity to manipulate his wife into thinking it’s her fault. He’ll blame her to:
Avoid responsibility and accountability
Pretend like he’s a victim of his own pornography use or other abusive behaviors
Lie and tell her she’s emotionally abusive to him – which caused him to use pornography.
Gaslighting is another covert way he may blame you for the emotional abuse. This is tactic where the emotionally abusive husband systematically undermines his wife’s reality to make her think it’s her fault in some way. If he’s created a narrative to alter your reality, you’re being emotionally abused.
3. Justification: How He Makes His Emotional Abuse Make Sense
A husband who is emotionally abusive knows his behavior is wrong.
For example, everyone knows that it’s wrong to yell at another person unless you are truly protecting them from danger.
An emotionally abusive husband will raise his voice to asserts his entitlement or other exploitative privileges. However, he’ll justify that this bad behavior wasn’t wrong with any or every excuse possible.
He’s Emotionally Abusing You When He Justifies The Abuse
Justification is another way they can alter your perception of what is going on.
For example, he may say things like, “It’s just porn. It’s not a real person so it’s not that bad. It’s not cheating. I’m a man, so I can’t help it. I have a high sex drive and besides, all men look at it. It’s a guy thing. It’s what they do. I only do it a few times a month. It’s not a problem.”
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe that every woman deserves emotional safety. You don’t have to do this alone.
Transcript: 3 Compelling Reasons To Learn About Abuse
Anne: We’re going to cover three compelling reasons to learn about hidden abuse today. I’m going to lay them out for you right now really quick. Number one, learn about emotional and psychological abuse, so that your emotional safety is the top priority. Number two, an emotional and psychological abuser will use forgiveness as a weapon. And number three, learning about emotional and psychological abuse doesn’t create emotional and psychological abuse.
And we’ll go into detail about why those things are important throughout this conversation.
Terrified About & Finding That Betrayal Trauma Recovery Is Safe
Brandi: I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery as a woman who had just experienced my own betrayal, but then I was nervous. I was nervous. I did not know. I said, is this place real? Is it safe? I had no clue. I was terrified of contacting a group of people I did not know, especially when there are so many groups out there.
And so I put it off. One therapist said it was the marriage’s fault. What was my husband missing from the marriage? Delve into him. Why did he have an affair?
And I fought that with tooth and nail. I never surrendered to that idea one time. And so I didn’t realize that as I was fighting through those codependent ideas. He could just simply blame the marriage, which meant he was blaming me. Which had him not taking full responsibility.
I never surrendered to that idea and am so grateful. So I would fight it, fight it, fight it. I just wanted to heal and even understand what happened. After going through a codependent model through therapy, I knew that wasn’t it. I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery again.
I said, well, you know what? What do I have to lose? I will try it out. And I’m going to get on this session right away. Best decision I made. I learned I needed to be in safety at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And that’s what the codependent model did not teach me. I learned that in the codependent model, you communicate that boundary. And then he’s just gonna magically do what you say. Because clearly he’s gonna do it now that he’s betrayed the relationship.
1. Learn About Abuse So That Emotional Safety Is The Top Priority
Brandi: Actually, it’s the opposite. He betrayed the relationship because of his character. He is boundless, so he’s not gonna respect the boundaries. My first session, I didn’t say anything. So I was just listening and seeing if these women are safe.
That was my biggest thing. Are these women safe? Am I in the right betrayal trauma support group? I found that was the first thing. I found the rules of the group were for our safety. The coach was just full of education and yet she didn’t tell us what to do. She just simply asked us questions.
She asked the other ladies questions, and the ladies were safe to cry. They were safe to talk about vulnerable topics, and they were safe to wade through the questions. Their emotional abuse survivor stories were incredible. They learn about abuse and get to a place where they are enlightened. I saw women at different stages of their recovery. I saw where I was and where I wanted to be. And I thought that that was so powerful for my first session. And so I learned that it’s my job to keep myself safe, and that’s exactly what I did after that.
Anne: Well, I’m grateful that you found us. I’m grateful when any woman finds us, because the first reason to learn about emotional and psychological abuse is that your safety needs to be the top priority. Your emotional safety, your psychological safety. Many people think when I say safety, I mean, like pack up your bags and leave the house. And that’s actually not what I’m talking about.
Learn About Abuse To Find Strategies To Deal With It
Anne: There are ways to be emotionally safe remaining in the same home, if that’s what you so choose. There are so many amazing strategies, and I teach them in the Living Free Workshop, and then our coaches can help you learn to use these strategies. We get so many messages and stories that say I had been through therapy for years or went to couple therapy or addiction recovery. And nobody ever said the word abuse. They don’t say you need to learn about abuse.
Did you recognize his behaviors as abuse at the beginning of your marriage?
Brandi: Absolutely not. I pretty much grew up around manipulation tactics and stonewalling. That was actually very common for me. So I thought that’s what marriage was about. And so I would tackle it head on. It wasn’t something I didn’t address. I definitely addressed it, and I thought, oh, we’re good. We talked about it. And so I didn’t recognize it as abuse.
And I was shocked when I learned the word abuse properly, because I would only think about abuse in terms of physical abuse. I did not think of it in terms of emotional or psychological, although throughout the marriage, I addressed it because I knew it wasn’t right. And it did not leave me feeling like I was being valued.
Anne: Yeah, you knew something was wrong. When did you recognize that these typical, you know, love, serve, forgive, do your part kinds of things weren’t working?
It Is Difficult To Recognize The Reality Of Abuse
Brandi: I realized that after Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I remember my second group meeting when I opened up and they started giving us tools and books. I remember I put the book down and ran to the mirror. And I was like, oh my, I’ve been abused. I stayed up late after all my children went to bed, and I just sat with that. I sat with that and I’m like, this is abuse. This is why it is wrong. This is what I felt this whole time, and yet did not have the word for it.
You had to forgive, you serve, we talk about it, then you’re okay. But it never went away. That was the key. And I certainly was never encouraged to create safety for myself. Like, you know, this means you’re safe, you’re married. This is safety. And so that’s when I finally realized, wait a minute, this is abuse. And now I can look back and say that was abuse throughout the marriage.
Anne: Why do you think it’s so hard for women to recognize that what they’re experiencing is abuse?
Brandi: The hardest thing is, this is someone I love. This is your husband, and this is who you love. And so it’s hard to associate. I’ve been loving this person who has been abusing me. This person is my husband, and he is an abuser. That is so hard to reconcile those two things when you learn about abuse.
2. An Emotional And Psychological Abuser Will Use Forgiveness As A Weapon
Anne: Especially when everything about love is trying to understand someone’s view, give them the benefit of the doubt, and serve them. And when so many of those things, when you’re in an abusive situation, are used as weapons. Even your emotions, because abusers don’t see emotion as a way to connect, they see emotion as a way to manipulate people.
And so even those emotional times where you thought maybe you were close once you got out of the fog, whoa, I shared those things. Then my husband used them to groom me and use them as weapons. And that is so shocking to so many women when they finally realize what is going on. And learn about abuse.
Brandi: Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s hard to accept that as reality, absolutely.
Anne: So one of the things that you love talking about, which I’m going to just preface this word carefully, because it’s a very triggering word for people. Because a lot of clergy use it as a weapon against victims, and then also therapists use it as a weapon. Maybe the abuser’s family uses this word as a weapon. And so let’s say the word. Everyone kind of brace yourself. Here we go. It’s forgiveness.
The second reason to learn about abuse is that an emotional and psychological abuser will use forgiveness as a weapon.
Anne: So people will say, well, you just need to forgive or he’s changed when he hasn’t.
Determination Of What I Am Forgiving
Brandi: Clergy, their pastor, their small group leader, they go to their family, some of their friends even. And they say what happens, and that scripture is used, you must forgive, you must forgive. And I’m like, what exactly am I forgiving? Because, okay, am I forgiving the acting out?
Okay, but what caused the acting out? What informed my husband to betray me. And informed him to commit adultery? What informed him to watch exploitative material? What informed him to be unkind to only me? Also what informed him to abuse me? And ask them directly, is that what I’m forgiving? Is it that, or just the acting out? And where do we engage with who that person is, who my husband is, and what he has done to me?
And I believe when that question is asked, that is the place where true healing is for the victim of abuse. Because you’re saying, “Well, this is who you are, and what you’ve done to me. I’m accepting who you are.” I do have to move forward in time, but only after I have all the information and learn about abuse, and is that being addressed? It’s who he is being addressed and what he’s done. Is that being addressed?
Or are you just using forgiveness as a weapon against me? And trying to fast forward me when I’ve been a victim and injured by his behavior, by his abuse. I’m injured, and you’re telling me to forgive when he has not even been addressed on who he is.
The Necessity Of Boundaries When You Learn About Abuse
Brandi: And for me, the violations against scripture, he violated God’s word. He violated God. He violated our family. And so I have to know who that person is, and then I’ll be on the journey to forgiveness.
Anne: So let me see if I can restate. To forgive him, you have to acknowledge the truth, which is this is abuse. I know you’re an abuser. I’m forgiving you for being an abuser. Now that I know you’re an abuser and can forgive you, I need to also make sure I am safe from you. Because now that I know what you are, I can forgive and move on by setting boundaries, by making sure I’m as safe as possible, et cetera, et cetera. So am I correctly stating that?
Brandi: You are stating that absolutely correctly. Because once you delve into who he is, and learn about abuse, you know what you are actually forgiving.
His Willful Decisions Are Dangerous To Emotional, Psychological & Spiritual Health
Brandi: Number one, the hope is pastors, friends, clerks say, wait a minute, hold up. I’m actually not safe. His core of who he is has informed him to make these decisions to abuse.
That is a choice. That was his willful decision. And she absolutely needs to get to a place of safety. That’s the hope. And if they don’t, then for the woman, wife, betrayed victim, it’s saying, wait a minute, hold up. That is who he is. I absolutely need to be in a place of safety.
It does not automatically mean it’ll be reconciliation. That’ll be for the offender to do the work of changing his core of who he is. He has to reform who he is. But it does say, Hey, I need to be safe where there’s some separation. If you cannot leave, you wrap yourself in bubble wrap. You know exactly who you’re dealing with and learn about abuse.
And you don’t have any surprises. You know exactly who he is. But now you know, that’s not lost on you or anyone else. And you know, your safety, the safety of your family is the primary focus. That’s what I mean when I say, what are you forgiving? Because that puts the highlight on who he is.
Anne: Forgiveness is, I wouldn’t say, impossible, but very difficult without boundaries. Boundaries and safety enable that forgiveness. And it’s also part of this radical acceptance that everybody’s talking about. Where you’re like, oh, this person is dangerous or unhealthy, and they’re dangerous to my emotional health.
They’re dangerous to my psychological health. And they’re dangerous to my spirit. And so. I’m going to forgive them for that. I’m sorry that that happened. And I’m going to ensure that doesn’t happen again by setting boundaries.
Forgiveness Has Nothing To Do With Trust & Reconciliation
Anne: Because we all know, hopefully we know. If you don’t, forgiveness has nothing to do with trust. It has nothing to do with reconciliation, nothing to do with communicating with your abuser. It is to set us free, and it takes time and is a process. And so anyone who expects forgiveness quickly, and also expects reconciliation, does not understand forgiveness. And is also not prioritizing your safety.
Brandi: 100 percent agree. One BTR Coach even held up a diagram, what forgiveness is versus what trust is. You know, forgiveness requires nothing of the offender. It is unconditional. It is based on grace and trust, which requires much of the offender is conditional, and is based on works.
And I love that. It’s just right from your book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. And I love how it’s simply put, and it’s absolutely true. Forgiveness, in my humble opinion, doesn’t have to be a horrible word for those injured. And yet, it doesn’t give anyone the right to use it as a weapon. It is a process.
It takes time. A lot of times, our husbands have kept this secret world and secret life for years, for years, and usually before they even met us. And so to find out and then in the next moment you’re supposed to forgive is unfair, and it should definitely not be used as a weapon of any sort.
It is a process, and in time, forgiveness sets us free. It doesn’t mean there’ll be a reconciliation of any sort. Or It doesn’t mean you will automatically trust them at all. They have to do the work and learn about abuse. To gain the trust that they destroy it back. That’s their job.
Setting Boundaries For Safety When You Learn About Abuse
Anne: Those who have listened to this podcast from the beginning know that my voice now sounds so much different than it did in the beginning. Number one, because I altered it before because I was so terrified. Now this is my actual voice. But number two, my confidence, my peace, and my safety, have improved over time.
And the reason is because I really prayed, studied, and discovered the strategies I now teach in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It was such a miracle to be enlightened with those strategies. And then to use them and see that they worked, and then to help other women use them. And then to create a detailed workshop to help women do it too.
Brandi: I love the Living Free Workshop. It’s helped me see that it’s really simple. Is this okay for me? No, it’s not okay. It’s absolutely not okay. Okay. Or okay, that is okay. Abuse is never okay. Scripture does not support abuse in any way, shape, or form. You can learn about abuse.
It is not our role to submit to abuse, it is not okay. It is okay for us to maintain safe boundaries for ourselves and for our family. That is okay. And no one has that right to choose that for us.
How To Determine The Truth, Is He Abusive?
Anne: I experience this as I’m talking with victims all over the world. Many times they’ll say, He does this, it bothers me, but is this abuse? As if someone else needs to tell them what they’re experiencing is acceptable or not. They feel uncomfortable, then let’s say Anne Blythe of Betrayal Trauma Recovery says, “Oh, that’s fine. That’s not abuse. You need to learn about abuse.”
And they’d be like, well, I guess Anne said grabbing a cookie out of my hand, and shoving it in his face, isn’t abuse. So I guess I accept that. A few lessons in Living Free, go over this in detail, like lesson 11. Where you’re getting in touch with your own sacred internal warning system. So that you decide what makes you feel safe, and how to get to safety.
I want to give women the confidence, nobody needs to tell you if it’s okay or not. Is it okay with you? Do you feel comfortable? Do you feel safe? That’s the only thing you need to pay attention to. If your clergy says, Oh, that’s not a big deal. All men do that. If a therapist is like, oh well, you just need to understand him more. Just think, is this acceptable to me? Is this something that I feel comfortable with in my own home?
Brandi: Absolutely, I a hundred percent agree with that. Your woman’s intuition. It’s God given to you to use. It is beautiful. It is unique. And it identifies you and you know inside of yourself, oh, wait a minute. That is really not okay. Hold up. I did not feel safe. You know, introducing the proper words. Wait, are you safe? You know, can you be vulnerable? You know, it’s the truth in this relationship.
Intuition Is Your Greatest Gift
Brandi: Is a relationship honest? And your intuition is your greatest gift. Your own for you in time to be able to even validate yourself and say, wait a minute, I’m listening to my intuition. I am not safe. Oh, that was not communicated. Well, I was just gaslit. And I know that for myself. That is one of our goals at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
https://youtu.be/8FgurwYmD24
And I’m so thankful for that because a lot of times when a woman has been abused for so long, that part of her has been dismissed. She’s been taught to stuff it down. She’s been taught to listen to everybody else except herself. And that’s a woman’s greatest strength is her intuition.
Anne: I think clergy concerns and therapist concerns are like, well, we don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill. So we don’t want to call this abuse. And I think one of the reasons women are concerned about trying to learn about abuse is because they’re concerned that it will create abuse out of thin air when it didn’t exist before.
Anne: And so this is the third reason to learn about emotional and psychological abuse. To learn about abuse doesn’t create abuse, it just keeps you safe. If you listened to this podcast, or you enrolled in the Living Free Workshop, or you buy one of my books. And you read it and you’re like, this doesn’t relate, this isn’t what I’m experiencing. Then you can know it’s not abuse. It’s like a process of elimination. If he’s not abusive, you’re not going to relate.
Learning about abuse doesn’t create abuse out of thin air. It helps you recognize what’s going on. The other thing that I have found is that as I have learned more about what abuse is, how it works, what the underlying issues are like control, manipulation, misogyny, things like that. I’ve also learned more about what healthy behaviors are, and I’ve actually felt more and more safe in the world because I can more clearly see abuse while it’s happening in real time.
I can witness something and be like, oh, that’s abuse. In fact, I was at Sequoia National Park and there was a man and a woman. They had been waiting, but then a line formed, and even though they got into the line and got on the shuttle. So it wasn’t a problem, he said to her. “What’s wrong with you? We woke up at four o’clock in the morning to do this. Now we have to be at the back of the line, and I don’t know what’s wrong with you.”
I stopped them and I pointed right at him at his chest and I said, what’s wrong with you? There’s nothing wrong with her. I don’t know what your problem is, but whatever it is, something is wrong with you.
Making A Molehill Out Of A Mountain
Anne: And then I tried to give her a compassionate look, but in that moment, I knew that is abuse. Like, I’m going to say something. And similarly with healthy men that I now observe, I’m like, oh, that’s healthy. That’s not abuse. Learning about abuse will not create abuse out of thin air, but may be there whether you know it or not.
Brandi: Yes, and I was going to say the same thing. You know, the idea of creating a mountain out of a molehill is already there. It’s just a matter of whether you’re going to define it properly, diagnose it properly, identify properly as abuse, and get to safety. If anybody else recognizes this as the truth, the clergy, all those who would say that, and ignoring the actual abuse will not make it any better.
So actually opening up and reading the book. Getting the information that will help you address, oh, this is who he really is. This is who has been in my house in my bed. This is my husband, and it strengthens you when you see. So I was like, well, we’ll have to figure this out. You have to see and learn about abuse in situations to actually stand up to it.
And you identify it so much quicker, because now your intuition is informed. You’re like, oh, my intuition was telling me right. This entire time, and you’re strengthened, and you can know the difference and clearly identify it, especially if you’re not ignoring the mountain already there. Because the mountain is already there. It’s not a molehill.
Anne: Yeah, what they’re doing is making a molehill out of a mountain.
Brandi: Exactly, right.
Anne: And that mountain is going to crush her.
We Welcome Interfaith & Interparadigm Viewpoints To Learn Of Abuse
Brandi: It will crush her. And then what? I mean, it’s so unfortunate, because they’ll say that. And by the time she’s actually at a place of saying something, the mountain is already crushing her. Then there’s more to come by the time she can even express herself. It doesn’t get better over time when it’s not addressed properly.
Anne: Yes, exactly. So Betrayal Trauma Recovery is interfaith and interparadigm. We welcome everyone here. We have agnostics who listened to the podcast, atheists and Christians, Jewish women, everyone is welcome here to learn about abuse.
When we speak from a perspective of a woman of faith, we’re just speaking from our own experience, but not necessarily telling other women that they need to process it this way. So because Christina is a woman of faith, you like to create value for yourself in God’s word.
Dealing With Qualities Of Good & Evil
Anne: Can you talk about how God’s word has helped you feel that you have value?
Brandi: The idea that in God’s word, I’m worth more than the whole world to God. And that when he defines love, love is patient. kind, not rude, not boastful, and it doesn’t demand its own way. When we learn about abuse, we realize it is not from God.
It’s not irritable. I mean, he’s talking about me and how much God loves me and in his love. Because I’m a woman, I’m supposed to believe I’m an object and an object of abuse? I’m neither. God made me, and he shaped me, and he loves me. And just like, there are way more scriptures about evil in the Bible, and that’s what he calls sin and what our husbands have done.
He calls it evil. And he said husbands are supposed to love their wives. As Christ loves the church, and he died and gave himself for the church. And that’s what I love about God. That is my value. My value is not defined by this experience I’ve had with my husband. It’s already defined in God’s word. I don’t have to give anything away.
Misinterpretation Of Scripture Can Rationalize Abuse
Brandi: God has said I am loved and I am his. And that’s what I think I did in the beginning of my marriage and coming into the church. I believe the scripture was misappropriated. Ephesians chapter 5, and it was almost taught to us in the way that the husband acted any way he can, not nice.
He can be unkind. He can stonewall he can, even DARVO. None of those things were addressed back then. And your job is, you’re just supposed to submit. And that is not true. I look at submission completely differently. It means under the mission, and the mission is Christ. We need to learn about abuse and be safe.
The mission is not to be abused, punished, or an object. That is not Christ’s mission. The mission is Christ and his will, and my husband was supposed to submit to Christ. I submit to that. And the moment he did not, I have no responsibility to submit to him.
Anne: Yeah, absolutely agreed. Yeah, for us Christians submitting to God, right. And submitting to truth, submitting to righteousness, is really important to us. And so many women feel like I need to submit to my husband, but they don’t realize what they’re submitting to is evil. They’re submitting to evil, and God does not want us to do that.
Brandi: Not at all.
Lies, Misogyny, Lack Of Integrity & Lack Of Empathy Are Character Issues Of Abusers
Brandi: I believe Jesus said that when Satan lies, it’s in his character. He lies from his character. I thought that was so good when I joined Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Because I was so surprised, I kept hearing addiction and things like that. My husband had a addiction, and then to find out, oh no, this is his character.
This was his choice, it was an integrity problem. He had an integrity abuse problem. I was blown away that no, this is a thinking problem. He’s misogynist, he has misogynistic thinking. And he lacked empathy. He had empathy for himself, but he definitely didn’t have empathy for his low wife and the misogynistic views he had for his wife.
He didn’t have that. And so I just absolutely love the truth here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Because it calls it out for what it is, and no man, no husband, is above God’s word. He isn’t subjugated to other parts of scripture because he’s a husband. Where if he lies, it’s evil. He watches it, it’s evil. He commits adultery, it’s evil. If he has wickedness in his heart, it is evil. And that’s what God’s word says. And I’m sticking to that.
Anne: Me too. So there’ve been several clergy people who tell me things like, well, looking at exploitative material isn’t adultery. And I’m like, I think Jesus would have the final say on that. And he says it’s adultery. Or, these men aren’t bad guys. And I’m like, well, you know, the scriptures call them wicked. So I think I’ll stick with what the scriptures say. Thank you very much.
I find peace in the scriptures, and I find so much healing there that God hates this. He loves us and wants us to learn about abuse and safety.
Abuse Creates A Faith Crisis For Victims
Anne: For the women who find the scriptures triggery or difficult to read. Or church to be triggery or things like that, our heart goes out to you. So many women have decided to move away from their faith due to their abuse. I wanted to say from a Betrayal Trauma Recovery perspective, we understand that too. What makes me sad in that situation. Depending on what the woman is like and wants, we always support her and what’s best for her as she starts to learn about abuse.
What makes me sad about it is sometimes things women care about, like their faith or maybe other things. Let’s pretend like she really super cares about a certain football team. And that has been her identity, and she goes to all the football games, and she does a football party, and wears the jersey and everything. And then after she finds out her husband is an abuser and has been using football as a weapon against her.
Then suddenly she loses the ability to find joy in her team, and she can’t throw parties anymore. Every time she sees the jersey, she just wants to throw up, right. And that’s the same thing with women and their faith sometimes, in that some women have a visceral reaction to a man in a suit and tie, for example, or someone reading scriptures or something. And so I just want to send out love and hugs to you.
If you have lost something, no matter what, your faith, a football team, you know, could be. I don’t know, cheesecake, whatever it is. If you have lost something due to your husband’s abuse.
When You Learn About Abuse, You Learn It’s Not Your Fault
Anne: I’d encourage you to determine what things do serve you that you still love. And as you heal, reconnect with those things. Depending on what those are and where you’re at in your healing. I’m so grateful that you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and have become part of our team. From your perspective now, what advice would you give to women who are just finding out about their husband’s use?
Brandi: He hid that for years. I knew about that many years ago. And then it was something that, you know, he dealt with. The men in church said, don’t tell Brandi. And once he started back after four years, he hid it. And so I had a dream that he was hiding something that I found out about an affair. Which led me to learn about abuse and that he was still in using exploitative material and growing it the whole time.
So if you’ve just found out about your husband’s lies. It is not your fault, and had nothing to do with the marriage. It had nothing to do with you. I hear it a lot of women talk about the areas where they feel like they fell short.
Whether it’s communication or what they can give, even in the worst marriage, it’s still not your fault. And my hope is that you as a woman can rest and know that this is a hundred percent his issue, not yours.
Anne: That’s really a good place to start.
A Marker For Abuse
Anne: The reason why I wanted to bring up use is that we talk so much about abuse here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And abuse is hard to figure out, right? You’ve got all this stuff going on. Is it abuse? Is it not abuse? But one of the easiest markers is use. I just want to put everyone’s mind at ease or at, not at ease, I guess. It’s abuse if you know your husband uses exploitative material and lies about it, it’s the easiest marker.
It’s like someone punching you. Some women say, “Oh, I just wish he would punch me in the face.” They don’t want to be punched in the face. But they’d know what was going on. Many women say that. I would say that is exactly the same thing you can say about exploitative material.
If you know your husband has used, if you’ve seen it on his phone or have had some inkling it’s going on. That is another marker. And it’s just as clear as someone punching you in the face. The unfortunate thing about exploitative material is that if you get punched in the face with it, if you do see it, then you know. But they can hide it forever. Then, you could never know about it. So in that case, you have to look at all the other markers and learn about abuse.
I think it’s important too, because it’s rarely brought up in mainstream abuse circles. Similarly, abuse is never talked about in the addiction recovery world. At Betrayal Truama Recovery, we want to bring all these things together, so women can have a clear, round picture of the truth and what is happening.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Comprehensive Support To Learn About Abuse
Anne: We have such an amazing strong coaching team. All of them can help you implement the strategies you learn about abuse in the Living Free Workshop, or you can just attend a Group Session and start wherever you want. We are here for. you, no matter where you are in your journey.
Yes, Lying Is Emotional Abuse: Here’s Why – Kelly’s Story
Mar 05, 2024
Women are often surprised to learn that lying is emotional abuse. Many victims blame themselves for his lies and other abusive behaviors in trying to make sense of a chaotic situation. The responsibility lies completely with the abuser. He is fully accountable for his decisions to lie and manipulate.
Whether He Has a Diagnosis Or Not, Lying Is Emotionally Abusive
While some abusers may be diagnosed with various mental disorders and/or illnesses, many are not. Some women may find that if their abuser receives a diagnosis, it may seem more compassionate to justify or minimize his abusive behavior. Regardless of why he chooses to be emotionally abusive, women deserve emotional safety.
Transcript: Yes, Lying Is Emotionally Abusive
Anne: I have Kelly, a victim of emotional abuse on today’s episode. She was a victim of financial abuse and also coercion. She’s going to share her story. And although Kelly and I are both Christian, we know that many listeners to this podcast aren’t. BTR is interfaith and inner paradigm. We welcome everyone.
We also invite everyone to share their own personal experience. So as you hear us mention our belief in God, it’s not to offend or to proselytize, but just because we’re sharing from our own experience. And if you’re interested in sharing your experience from whatever faith perspective or paradigm you ascribe to. I would be honored to hear your story. So contact me at podcast@btr.org to set up an interview. Okay, let’s start with your story.
Anne: Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?
Kelly: I certainly did not. In fact, it was probably about three and a half years into our marriage before someone first told me they could be considered abuse. Up until that point, I had always known that abuse in my mind involved physical violence. And that was not at play in my marriage.
I never had any bruises or anything like that. And so while I knew things were not good and it was a difficult relationship, I thought that’s all it was. That you marry for better or worse. And that we went through many of the worst times is what it seemed like.
Anne: During that time, where you didn’t recognize the abuse, were you aware of exploitative materials use or any other consent issues related to your relationship?
Discovering The Double Life
Kelly: A few months after we married, it became evident that I had married someone living a double life. There were huge and extreme lies, and I didn’t know that lying was emotionally abusive. It was about four weeks into our marriage when I first discovered all these.
The one day stands out in my mind started out just like any other day. I grabbed my things and went to work. He is in his last semester of undergraduate studies and is graduating in just a few months after we married. And I got to work, and a little later I realized my charger for my laptop is back at the house.
https://youtu.be/j8CvkDrWyRc
So I finished meeting with a client, and ran home to grab it. I walked in the front door, he was sitting on the couch in the living room, and I was confused. Because I knew he should be in classes at that time. So I had no idea why he was there. And obviously, I jumped a little bit when I opened the door, not thinking anyone would be there.
And I said, what are you doing here? He was flustered, and he starts mumbling about how he has a big test coming up for school that he needs to study for. So he skipped classes to focus on that. And I remember in my head thinking, Well, the semester just started a few weeks ago. He should not be at that point yet, of needing to skip things to study for an exam when he’s only had class for a few weeks.
But, like I said, it was kind of in the middle of a work day. I needed to get back to work, so I just said, Alright, we’ll talk about it later, and left.
Not Knowing Lying Is Emotional Abuse
Kelly: It took around two months to figure out what was going on. And I knew that he had a history of not doing well in school, so I was immediately concerned and worried about it. And really, every time I tried to talk to him, he never had any straight answers on anything. So eventually, time after time, of trying to ask, okay, well, what time are your classes or which day do you have classes? Or when do you have projects due?
Just so I could keep up with it all. He couldn’t figure it out and eventually got to the point where I said, well, why don’t you just log into your portal online so I can look at it with you? And try and sort through all this so that we’re both on the same page and not confused here?
He couldn’t do that either. And I told him, well, you know, try and go to the IT department. Maybe you need to get your account reset, all that sort of thing. Eventually, a couple weeks later, he still couldn’t do it. And I eventually sat down with him, and I just said, okay, right here, right now, you need to pull up the site while I’m sitting with you and log in.
After an hour or so of arguing, eventually it came out that he was not in school. And in fact, he had dropped out of school for about two years. So that entire time period that we were dating, engaged, and newly married, I have no idea how he spent his time. No one had any idea about this. He had been lying the whole time.
Affairs & Exploitative Material
Kelly: His parents, everyone in his family, thought he was attending classes. All of his friends did as well, but he was just falsifying information along the way. So after that, I felt like the rug was taken out from underneath me. I started to question other things that seemed confusing or just kind of struck me as something wasn’t quite right. And through that, what I discover is that he had multiple affairs while we were dating.
I quickly discovered he had slept with more than one woman multiple times. There was definitely infidelity throughout the time we were together.
Anne: This story is consistent with exploitative materials use. The likelihood of him using is extremely high, it is not something discoverable. So even if he used and you never saw it, and he doesn’t own up to it, you would never know. There’s no way to prove it or disprove it.
So if I was a betting person, which I am not definitely. I bet he used exploitative materials for sure. He runs you in circles for months. And because you’re caring, compassionate and kind, you’re concerned and trying to help him out. And not once did you think, wait a minute, it’s not that he can’t log in or needs a password. A few months later, you realize it’s because he’s not enrolled. You realize he was lying, but not that lying is emotionally abusive.
Lying Is Emotional Abuse & False Graduations
Kelly: Yeah, it never crosses my mind that I would need to be a detective with my spouse. I did not grow up in a home like that. My parents have a great marriage and a great relationship where they work as partners together. And so when I entered my own marriage, that’s what I anticipated. But it quickly became evident that that’s not what was going on. That’s just a quick, brief snippet of things. We stayed married for close to five years.
And throughout that time, there were three occasions where I believe he was actually graduating from college. He falsified grade reports that he would show me. I threw him a giant graduation party at one point with about 40 of our closest friends there. And after the party, he just blew up at me, and he was so furious that I would go and do something like that.
I was confused, and I think it was something that he is just embarrassed about. Knowing that he had had trouble in school. I was trying to have that empathy to understand, wow, maybe I misstepped my bounds here. I shouldn’t have done that. And I thought it was considerate, but it wasn’t something he wants. Really, the only way I discovered he didn’t graduate is because I graduated from my master’s program and went to the same university.
When I got the list of graduates, I saw my name there and his was not there. And that was the only way that I had found out.
Anne: Wow,that must’ve been shocking.
The Extent Of Lies, Education & Work
Anne: You caught him several times, but instead of just coming out and telling you the truth, he continued to lie, wow. This is emotional abuse, it doesn’t matter the extent of the lies. So many of them are about having sex with other women, emotional affairs, or their double life.
But what I don’t understand is why didn’t he ever just say, Hey, I don’t want to go to school. I’d rather do something else. Like the truth is beyond them. I don’t want to just have sex with you. I want to have sex with a lot of people. Would you still like to be married to me? You know, these are pretty simple things to say.
But because of their exploitative privilege, they want to continue to exploit. And they want the entitlements that come along with a happy marriage or college degree. But they don’t want to do the work. Was he employed at all during this time?
Kelly: I’m actually not sure. He bounced around a lot on different part time jobs, but it was never very consistent. The number one question I get asked about all of this when I share these details is what was his end game here?
You know, someone will find out he doesn’t have a degree. The first job he had after allegedly graduating, he ends up fired from that job. Because he falsified his information and told them he did have a degree when he didn’t. So I think the most difficult part of this is to try and recognize that our brains function differently here. While we all recognize that this will not work in the long run. That just did not connect for him.
Forged MCAT Scores
Kelly: He was set to attend med school, as shocking as that sounds. Well, we paid for the MCAT, at least I thought we had. I’m not sure what he uses all that money for now. And he actually did not take the exam, I learned months later. But he did forge MCAT scores, and he had those mailed to our house so that I could open them up and see them in the mail.
And the tricky part with all this is I think he’s very intelligent. And so I think he felt that not going to school would mean he’s working a job below his potential. Because I remember sitting down and talking about those MCAT scores and asking, Well, why did we spend this money on this if you’re not even in school right now?
How could you even take the test if you’re not in school right now? The national program like this checks those sorts of things. So how did that even happen? And eventually through that, I discovered he hadn’t taken it. But the one point that sticks out in my mind is that he is so proud of the detail he had gone to for the forgery.
I remember him showing me the paper and talking about how he measures out the margins and all the indentations everywhere, so that there’s no way I could ever guess it was falsified.
Anne: Wow, if he had only put that much effort into school.
Kelly: That’s exactly what I said.
The EMotionally abusive nature of Lying & Consequences
Anne: I had a conversation with someone who told me, this abuse stance you take about pornography use is so extreme. They were telling me. It’s so extreme! You know, these guys are really good guys who use. And I’m like, I don’t argue with you that some of them seem like really good guys. But if someone willingly uses without their wife’s knowledge, knowing that if she knew, she would be upset.
Knowing that if I tell her that I use, she will be upset. So I’m going to wear my white shirt and tie to church every week. I’m going to participate. I’m going to act like I don’t use for all intents and purposes. And every time pornography comes up, I’m going to be like, yeah, that’s not cool.
Like that is serious stuff. Lying is emotionally abusive. This is not just like, Oh, he’s ashamed or embarrassed. Like it’s serious. It’s a serious consent issue. And your husband, people would be like, Whoa, this guy is a psychopath, right? I’m sure many people have said that to you when you tell the story, like Holy Cow, the extent that he went to.
But I don’t think people realize that men go to this extent just to cover their use quite a bit. Like, a lot. It’s very, very common, women are going through hell. When you’re married to someone, they’re willing to lie to you like that. About college, or about exploitative material, or about anything else to that extent.
Kelly: Absolutely.
Personality Disorder Diagnosis
Kelly: And you know, it’s not until I finally learn what abuse actually was, that lying is emotionally abusive. This was not just us going through a difficult time. I had it in my head that I was overly controlling. And so he feels pressured and embarrassed, and that’s why he would hide things because I was just too controlling. And putting too much pressure on him. In my case, I was actually the one financially stable.
I had the education, I had the career, and he was the one floundering. We eventually reach a crossroads, where I told him you are either moving out of the house now. Or you need to go and have this psych. eval. done. So we can try and figure out what we’re working with here.
And when the results came back, they did say he had a personality disorder. And that it was likely an antisocial personality disorder, which is sociopathy. In my case, I did get a bit of that closure there, having that medical explanation and having the doctor turn to me and say, “You need to get out now. And you need to run as fast and as far as possible, because he will never ever change.”
And not many women get that. Many of them have this inkling that something is wrong, but they don’t get that official diagnosis. And what I say to them is what you’re talking about, with just the action of covering up pornography or other things. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if you have that diagnosis or not.
Religious Perspectives On Change: Lying Is Emotional Abuse
Kelly: At the end of the day, that is not a healthy relationship. That is manipulative, controlling behavior. And it doesn’t matter what they’re trying to cover up or what sort of diagnosis they may or may not have officially on a paper there. At the end of the day, it’s just not right.
Anne: Exactly, most religious people I know believe in change. Especially Christians, they’re like, Christ makes everything possible. With God, all things are possible. Nothing is impossible with Christ, etc. And so to say this person’s never going to change.
Most religious people put up a little bit of a, like, well, wait, that’s what, Christ is for. That’s what the atonement was for. And so they get a little bit like, “No, I think people can.” I genuinely do think people can change.
And so with that, I want to say like, Okay, can you hold the space for both of these places? That someone can change, but if they have not changed, they haven’t changed.
There’s such a difference between someone saying, I will change or I can change, and actually changing. They’re two totally different things. The religious community hasn’t yet figured that out. They haven’t figured out that just believing someone can change is not the equivalent of someone actually being changed.
Kelly: Oh, definitely. I think it goes back to how you see God’s character. I believe in a God who gives us free will. He will not force anything on us. And I can sit, and I can hope and pray that my husband will change. But if my husband’s not willing, that’s not going to happen.
Efforts To Save The Marriage
Kelly: Eventually, that’s what I had to learn in my own marriage. It didn’t matter that I was willing to do anything and everything to save it and that I was bending over backwards with everything.
We got to the point where I was working full time, I was in grad school full time. And I told him, don’t worry about any of the housework at home. Or anything like that, because you just really, really need to graduate and figure this out. Someone had to eventually tell me, Kelly, you know, you can do all that. But at the end of the day, it is still his choice.
It is still his decision to make, and to make a marriage work, you need two people to be on board with that You can’t just have one person take on everything.
Anne: The other issue is do you want to be married to someone you literally do everything for? And for them to do just menial tasks.
Kelly: Yeah, that’s a good question. And I should clarify there, not that I was this perfect Christian on a pedestal, and he was awful. But I will say the thought you just mentioned never even crosses my mind. Because I was raised in a conservative Christian church that believes divorce is wrong. This kind of thinking in fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel this kind of abuse.
And I never consider divorce an option throughout this entire time. The only reasons I know divorce is okay are if you are physically abused or if there is an affair.
Lying Is Abuse, Marriage Counseling With An Abuser
Kelly: To show you where my mindset is at that time, I actually insist that we go to a marriage counselor, you know, right after that. Four weeks in, when I found something wrong, I said, Hey, I’m the good Christian wife. What do we do? We go to counseling and try to figure this out. I expected the counselor to respond back and have some sort of horror, I guess, about what had happened. Or about the depth of the deception going on.
But instead, he just kind of said, well, you know, you guys are still young. And it sounds like he’s struggling here and needs to figure some things out for himself along the way. Hopefully, once you get through that, things will be good. And you guys need to remember you’re married now, so you don’t tell anyone else about this.
This is a marriage issue between husband and wife. And I stuck to that for four years. I didn’t tell any family or friends what was going on. And it isn’t until about four years before I actually tell my husband one day. I said, if you cannot stop this, if you cannot stop this lying about everything, then you need to find a prostitute to sleep with.
Because if you do that, I know that I can file for divorce. That mindset now, I’m horrified by. The legalism behind that, of thinking, wow, is that the God that I serve? Who thinks, okay, as long as you check off this one exact specific box, then it’s okay to leave.
Lies About School, Finances, & Affairs
Kelly: But part of that was continually said to me, because I went back to that counselor at the beginning. I went back and met with him on my own. And I said, look, I’ve now found out not just about the lie that has to do with school. There was financial infidelity at play here, and I told him about the affairs I had learned about.
I said, you know, could I get an annulment or divorce? Based on some sort of thing of qualifying for being deceived into marrying him under false pretenses here, or just the infidelity. He told me, well, no, that’s not considered adultery.
Anne: I hear this all the time, women who have been betrayed are not alone in this experience. The affair happened years ago. So it’s not adultery now. Or his use isn’t considered adultery. I’m like, who cares if it’s considered adultery or not? It’s wrong. And I don’t want this in my relationship. This is not a mutual relationship.
But instead, the therapist enables him, also by clergy and society. The expectations of men are like, close to nothing. Apparently there’s nothing. that he could do. That was so terrible. That would warrant not exploiting you. Exploiting you is apparently fine. But the expectations of women are so much higher. She has to keep a job and struggle through school, keep a clean house and keep the relationship together.
Kelly: Absolutely, I’m thankful now. Because I don’t believe Jesus would tell me that the specific dates he had sex with another woman are what makes the difference.
Anne: Absolutely not.
Kelly: I think Jesus would choose to focus on where his devotion lies. And what a marriage covenant is actually supposed to be about, not the technicalities of the timing.
Lying Is Emotional Abuse, Absolutely
Anne: Absolutely. I could not agree with you more. It’s actually insane.
Kelly: It is.
Anne: It is insane., I keep thinking about the conversations I have with addiction recovery therapists, or couples therapists. People who apparently say lying is wrong. But they don’t go as far as to say that lying like this and having a completely separate double life is emotional abuse. So apparently. lying is wrong. But it’s not that big of a deal that he consistently lies to his wife.
It’s not that big of a deal that he has forged scores at his school. Lied about everything about himself. Not that big of a deal that he lies to hide his infidelity. That’s not abusive to her.
That’s crazy. Lying is emotional abuse, absolutely. And it makes no sense that they’re trying to downplay it. Wouldn’t they try to warn people about how serious it is. It makes no sense. So let’s go back to before you knew it was abuse. You said you wanted to take the pressure off of him. That happened to me too. My now ex-husband at the time was in “recovery” from his, “addiction.”
And so I wanted to make sure he was okay. And so I did all the housework, and I made sure he had time to go to all his 12 step meetings and all the therapy. Which he loved because he got all this attention from it. Plus, he didn’t have to be home with tiny little kids with snotty noses, and he didn’t have to help with the housework. So essentially, I’m isolating myself more and more.
Organizing For Education
Anne: So with you, was there anything else you try to do to establish safety as you resist this abuse? Right, you were full on. Resisting what’s happening by trying to figure it out. Can you think of any more specific examples of the ways you were resisting this abuse? Trying to resolve things.
Kelly: Yes, absolutely. So a continual issue for us, is he going to graduate or not? And we’re racking up student loans here for no reason, because you’re not even attending classes. One of the things I tried to do there was help him get more organized.
I figured it’s my job here to help support him, and I’m good at organization. So I bought poster boards, and I tried to create giant calendars for him to use with things. He told me no, I don’t like that idea. So I tried to do a shared calendar with our phones and Google to see if maybe an electronic format would be better.
No, he, he didn’t like that one either. So then I researched the best organizational tools to help people who struggle with that. And I bought two different planner organizer options for him to use. And he never used any of those. So that is a small isolated example of where I thought, Okay, if I can do everything I can to help him with this, he can get through it.
Therapeutic Blaming: Lying Is Emotionally Abusive
Kelly: And beyond that, eventually, it is evident that it is a much bigger problem than something isolated specifically to school. So we went to a marriage weekend at one point. Which the whole point was to try and reconnect and learn better communication skills. Because I thought maybe that is the problem. I am “controlling” and my communication is “too abrasive”, so we need to learn a better way to communicate.
Anne: When you say that, we’re putting that in quotes, listeners, she was not controlling, and her communication was not too abrasive. They were just saying that to pin it on her. You’ve all been told that.
None of it is true. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is a women’s empowerment organization. So I want to just say, when she said that, she put that in quotes. And any of you being told that, it is false. You communicate just fine.
Kelly: Absolutely, definitely. And to clarify that too, insisting on the truth should never be too much of a burden for anyone to bear. Let’s just be clear on that.
Anne: No! Lying is emotional abuse.
Kelly: No, absolutely not. So we went to a marriage weekend seminar at one point. Which was a pretty big undertaking for us. Again, I was the only one who worked regularly during this time. He is racking up debt left and right. We had a tight budget, but we ended up getting help with a sponsorship to attend that.
Love Is A Decision & Trying Every Option
Kelly: I will never forget, they gave us a magnet saying “to love is a decision.” And I took that to heart. I thought, I need to make sure I am making that decision every day. I hung it on our fridge, and it stayed there for years. After I separated from him, I remember going to the gym one day and running into a church member. They’d heard what was going on. They came up to me, and they knew that I had decided to ask him to move out.
And I was the one preparing to file for divorce. And they sat me down and told me, you know, you need to remember that loving someone is a decision. We also went to a prayer conference later on, because I thought, well, I believe all things are possible through God. And if we can pray enough, somehow God can work a miracle here. But of course, we always returned from the weekends, and nothing changed. It was back to the same.
Anne: That love is a decision. You can choose to love somebody. But you can also choose safety. Emotional safety, financial safety, sexual safety, and you don’t have to choose that other person’s manipulation over your own safety. These are all factors when divorcing a narcissist.
Kelly: Absolutely. Because love involves consequences. It’s not just an outpouring of nonstop second chances. That’s what I realize. I do remember one of my good friends saying to me, you know, take your time to make this decision, because it’s up to you.
But be sure in your heart that you feel comfortable with it and at peace. And what I needed to do to get to that point was feel like I had exhausted every possible option out there.
Seeking Safety & Separation
Anne: I think most women do. I felt the same way. I have many friends who have gone through this, who have exhausted every possibility. The only thing I would caution people about is to get to safety as soon as possible. Whatever that looks like. If that means separating your financial situation, if that means he moves out of the house. I don’t know what that looks like for you. Mine was arrested. You may or may not know. And he got a no contact order.
He couldn’t come within a thousand feet of my home. And has a court order not to text me about anything but the kids. Later on, I blocked him on my phone. That said, I did not file for divorce. For me, pouring everything into my marriage was waiting from a safe distance to see what his actions were going to be. And that was me doing everything I could. If you want to try everything, you can go for it, but please do it from a safe place.
Kelly: Absolutely, my parents were great advocates for me. I eventually went and traveled out to stay with them for a bit, probably about a month after he had moved out. I went home for a few weeks, and I was fortunate to have a job where I could work remotely at the time, so it worked well.
Lying Is Emotional Abuse: Parent’s Intervention
At that point, I laid out some of those requirements. Here’s what I expect you to be doing in this time, and here’s how you need to communicate with me and update me on those. And I will never forget that one night I got an email from him, probably around midnight or so.
Kelly: And I was staying up because he promised to send me an update that day. But of course, in his classic fashion, he waited until 11:59 p.m. to send it. So he could still technically say he sent it that day, but wait until the last possible minute. I had reached out to him because I had already separated out our bank accounts. But when I logged into our joint account, I see it was overdrawn by $1, 500.
And I looked into it more, I realize it is from a credit card he had. He spent all that $1,500 on cash advances. Which meant he wasn’t working like I thought, also spending at bars. Which meant he was getting very, very drunk. 50 to 60 dollar tabs almost every night of the week. I just started bawling my eyes out.
I was so upset and I thought, you know, I am here while I try to go to a counselor. I read every possible book I can and all these topics, and I’m praying and journaling. He is just sitting there going out and drinking every night, continuing to lie to me and manipulate me. My parents heard me crying, woke up and came into my room.
Financial Protection & Legal Steps
My mom sat me down and said, “This needs to stop”. This is not how a marriage works. And I told her, well, sometimes you go through bad things. And she said, no, not like this. This is not how it is. Even in the times where things are bad, it should not be to this level.
Kelly: They were insistent. I need to file for legal separation. That meant all spending he continued to do. Draining our accounts, and I paid off. As long as that legal separation is in place, that will protect me financially. They told me, after that, you can take your time, decide, and pray. As long as you know if you’re getting a divorce. But right here, right now, we need to legally make you safe.
Anne: Exactly, and those things I advocate for. So, when you find out your husband uses, you didn’t think he was. He’s, like, I’m a righteous person, I don’t do that sort of thing. Or, I’m a feminist, and so I don’t do that sort of thing. When you recognize that the person you’re living with is not the person you think he is. For whatever reason, school, exploitative material, affairs, whatever.
You need to treat it like a five alarm fire. It is serious business. You can always walk it back later. So many counselors, therapists, clergy, they don’t want to ring the alarm yet. They want to kind of like, we don’t want the worst case scenario, because the worst case scenario in their mind is divorce. And don’t know lying is emotional abuse. They don’t realize the victim is already living in the worst case scenario. And her husband is abusing her.
Misconceptions About Abuse
Get to safety first, then you can figure out what to do. Victims of emotional abuse resist the abuse in any way they can through therapy and communication with him. To allow him to continue to lie and emotionally abuse. Kelly, you were amazing. You were doing everything you could to resist abuse. Why do you think it takes us so long to understand what we’re resisting?
Kelly: I think it’s because it’s something that no one ever wants to hear. It’s humiliating. For me, I had always thought women in abusive marriages were those who maybe grew up in a poor family environment. Where they didn’t have the love, stability, and security from a young age, which was not the case for me. I always had that picture in my mind.
Maybe they are weaker, and that’s why they stay and didn’t leave, things like that. And I thought, well, there’s no way that’s me. I’m smart, I have a solid career, and I am well educated. I have a good family, involved in my church, and fully committed to everything I need to do to save my marriage.
So I thought, he’s never actually hit me, and I could make him leave the house at any point when I want to, and I haven’t done that yet. So I am not abused. I think it was also a lack of knowledge of what abuse encompasses.
Financial Abuse Realization
Kelly: I mentioned the financial abuse a little earlier, but I had no idea that financial abuse was even a thing. I had never heard of that. And I did know that over the years, I had found instances where he had stolen cash from our friends. I discover ed that while we were dating, I moved to Honduras as a missionary for several months, and left all my important documents and everything with him while I was gone.
And he writes himself checks from my bank account while I am gone. Once I was back and we were married, I remember at work one day. I was about to meet with a client, and I got a phone call on my cell phone. And I picked it up, and it was a creditor telling me that we were $3, 000 past due on a credit card I knew nothing about. I didn’t realize that that was financial abuse. I just had no education to even recognize it.
Anne: And you were resisting abuse the whole time. Even though you didn’t know lying was emotional abuse. You did exactly what you were supposed to do. It’s just the professionals you went to, the clergy, don’t know anything about abuse.
Lack Of Professional Understanding That Lying Is Emotionally Abusive
Anne: So you did everything right. And you were led astray. Because if they had studied abuse at all. If they had read a bunch of books on abuse, or if they had visited a domestic violence shelter and talked to them about emotional and psychological abuse. Or if they’d experienced it, they’d have to admit it’s abuse, because it would be staring them in the face. These guys are checking off every box.
But for some reason, abuse is something they desperately want to call something else. It’s a serious problem that these professionals think they know what abuse is and do not. And what bothers me right now is therapists, clergy, and others who tell me I’m going too far by saying lying is emotional abuse. They’re like, this is a good guy. He is just embarrassed.
This is abuse. Anne, you need to chill out. And I’m like, study abuse, and then if you can look me in the eye and say, it’s not abuse. Well, then I guess you’re a liar.
Kelly: It’s interesting, women, I feel like they fall into two buckets. One of the buckets is more the thought in my mind. Where they had a bad childhood growing up, where they’ve basically just known abuse their whole life. Like they don’t know anything else.
Lying Is Emotional Abuse: Religious Naivety & Manipulation
Kelly: But then there’s also this second bucket, and it’s the one I fell into. Where it’s the more naive Christian girls who grew up thinking I’m going to find a strong Christian. Who don’t know that lying is abuse. Who is everything I thought I needed and wanted. Who’s involved in church, who’s active, who’s well liked and well loved. And if that happens, I’m following God’s desire here. So nothing bad can take place.
And I have been shocked to discover that I am not alone in that. That happens more often than not. Abusers take advantage of that and manipulate that so easily. When they know that it’s someone who is genuine, loving and caring. And will be so loyal, because their beliefs hold them there. They see that as vulnerability and something to take advantage of.
Anne: Yep. And we need to educate women of the religious community that the profession of faith is not the same thing as actually living your faith.
Kelly: Oh, absolutely.
Advice To Younger Self
Anne: If you could talk to your younger self, what would you tell her?
Kelly: Oh, so many things. I think probably the biggest thing I would say is to approach dating completely differently. I had grown up with a courtship approach, where it was something extremely serious. And if you are with that person, then that should be somebody you’re considering for marriage. I wish I could go back and tell myself now. Don’t make it so serious so quickly. You know, this is the time where you are dating to get to know them.
So when these red flags come up, don’t just dismiss them as something of well. We can work through it, and work through everything. Take those opportunities to say I can leave now. I don’t have to stay here, and I don’t have to continue it, and learn how to have healthy boundaries before you go into dating.
I also wish I could educate myself a little more on what Jesus actually says about divorce. Divorce was something to protect women back then. It was not meant to keep them trapped and stuck in horrible situations forever. The biggest piece of that is that churches tend to rush the forgiveness and reconciliation side of things.
Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation
Kelly: And I think now, my knowledge of forgiveness and how that is not the same thing as trust. It is not the same thing as reconciliation, and recognizing the difference there. That I can choose to forgive someone doesn’t mean I need to continually entrust my heart to them over and over. When they have clearly demonstrated they are not a safe person for me to do that.
Anne: I did a podcast episode of insights I received from the New Testament, and I’ve been regretting it. So I want to bring this up right now, because I was just reading it really quick. I wouldn’t say the Holy Spirit was with me or anything. I was just reading a bunch of scriptures that indicated it’s okay to set boundaries.
And so I was like, “Get away from this bad person.” And I thought, should I air it? Should I not? I aired it. And part of me is like, oh man, I sound so harsh. Like, because there are these two dichotomous concepts going on in Christianity.
Balancing Love & Safety Knowing Lying Is Emotional Abuse
Anne: The first is love your neighbor, forgive, serve, bring them into the fold. And the other one is safety, safety, and safety. There are all these scriptures that say, “If someone’s lying and commits whoredoms, and yada, yada, yada, get away from that person.”
And so I think it’s so interesting that Christianity is conglomerated toward the love, serve inside of our church. So the guy’s coming to church, so we should love, serve and help him out. But these other people outside our church, we’re not going to associate with those people. Like anyone inside the church, is automatically safe. And everyone outside the church is automatically not safe.
But, take your time to get to know people. Find out if they’re emotionally mature, if they are really genuine, if they’re honest. Don’t assume they’re safe just because they show up to church and sit in the pew every week.
Kelly: I would add that one of the verses I’ve grown to love over the years now is Matthew 10:16. And literally, this is Jesus instructing us, and he tells us, I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. He warns us that we need to be careful. And he says, be as wise as serpents, as innocent as doves. He isn’t telling us to sit back and let ourselves be walked over. He’s saying to be smart in it.
Starting A New Relationship
Kelly: It’s interesting, because I’ve been divorced now for several years. And I am now in a relationship with someone else. I have been with them for two years now. This is the first person I am dating outside of my denomination, and is something I never thought would be happening.
Years ago, I would have said, “Well, there’s no way I’d ever consider it.” But I have learned that finding someone who is honest, respectful, and does what they say they will do. Everything in a relationship is a million times easier when you have that in place. The fact that he may not check off the box of the exact same belief system 100% is less important.
I’ve discovered that I have way more in common with him and our worldviews than with many folks in my church. That was a big change moment for me, to recognize that. And be confused by, how have I spent my entire life focusing on, if they don’t have that official membership in this church, I can’t do that.
To then find someone with a completely different background. And find that, no, this person lives out so much more of God’s love than I have ever found in any other relationship I’ve been in.
Anne: We have to live a healthy lifestyle emotionally, physically, sexually. Because we can’t know them if we don’t live them ourselves. So that’s number one. Number two, knowing what those characteristics are, like lying is emotional abuse. And then watching for them is so much different than checking off the box of, do they attend this particular church every week? Do they check all the boxes so that everyone in the community thinks they look good?
Religious Communities & Predators
Anne: I think that’s the problem. Religious communities are a real easy place for predators to put on the mask or groom, because it’s an actual built-in trust mechanism
Kelly: Definitely, that’s what we’re taught. A lot of the things that you need to look for, the people active in church or who are there every week, because those are things that are easy to see at a quick glance on the outside.
I had the mindset that I may not have made the best choice in the spouse I had married. But because I had made that decision, I needed to live with the consequences for the rest of my life. And I just wish I had known about how much of a relational God we serve. And that he cares so much more about people than technicalities.
Anne: Yes. God loves us. He does not want women to be exploited and abused. So many women are praying right now. Please change my husband, and their prayers seem unanswered.
Maybe he is answering our prayers. And he’s saying, “You don’t have to be emotionally abused”. You don’t deserve to be lied to. Lying is emotional abuse, and emotional safety is possible. I want you to be emotionally safe. Let’s focus on your emotional safety.
Anne: Kelly. I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on today’s episode.
What You Need To Know Before Scheduling With A “CSAT THERAPIST NEAR ME”
Feb 27, 2024
For decades, men who choose to engage in problematic sexual behaviors have been treated as “addicts” according to the traditional addiction model. Tragically, some professionals have labeled label victims of domestic abuse as co-addicts or codependents or told her that she can do something to “help” him. Here’s what you need to know before searching for a “CSAT therapist near me” or other sex addiction therapist or program.
When experts call betrayed women co-addicts or codependents, they ignore the fact that we’re abuse victims.
Betrayed women are not to blame that our husband betrayed us. We’re injured due to his abuse. Many people can agree that partners experienced trauma.
Dear Sex Addiction Therapists, if you can agree that we experienced trauma due to our husband’s infidelity, why can’t you correctly define what caused the trauma?
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand the devastation of re-traumatization when professionals imply a victim cased her own abuse by labeling her a “co-addict” or “codependent”. Having personal experience going to addiction therapists, and interviewing over 200 victims of betrayal trauma throughout the years, it’s my opinion that the addiction model misses the boat because it doesn’t identify the situation as domestic abuse. BTR would never label a victim in such a way as to give her partial responsibility for his abuse.
Just to prove the point, if you’re husband has been diagnosed as an addict, he’s likely using many of these 19 different types of emotional abuse. To see, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: What You Need To Know Before Scheduling With A Addiction Expert
Anne: It’s just me today. It’s heartbreaking, Many women who find this podcast have just found out their husband uses exploitative content. Or that he’s been secretly paying for women who have been exploited. Otherwise known as prostitutes, or other secret things.
If this has happened to you, maybe you went to clergy, and the clergy suggested your husband is a addict. Or perhaps you went to therapy, and a therapist suggested he’s an addict. And that diagnosis probably makes sense to you. Because if he wasn’t some kind of addict, why would he have been lying to you for years about his use or other secret behaviors?
And if you do a little research, you’ll see that many people recommend a CSAT, a certified addiction therapist, or an AASAT. So thinking you might need to get your husband one of these specializes in addiction, the rest of this episode, we’ll explain why searching for a “CSAT therapist near me” is not a good idea until you’ve been educated about abuse.
Understanding Codependency
Anne: We first need to talk about codependency. Codependency came out of the chemical dependency scene in Minnesota, around the 1970s. That was when the term was originally used to describe the symptoms that people would have, who were closely related to, or in a relationship with someone with a chemical dependency problem.
The basic idea of codependency is that a codependent person has, “Let another person’s behavior affect her.”
Now, before I get any farther. I’m setting this all up for you to realize how wrong this is when applied to sexual or emotional abuse. To know a little bit about what to expect when you go to an addiction specialist.
Definition Of Co-Addicts
Anne: Addiction specialists generally describe co-addiction as someone who is married to, or in a significant relationship with, an addict. These so-called co addicts demonstrate behavioral characteristics, including denial, preoccupation, enabling, rescuing, taking excessive responsibility, emotional turmoil, efforts to control, compromise of self and intimacy issues.
So how is codependency diagnosed? One of the main diagnostic criteria for codependency is that the wife of an addict is trying to control the addict. Addiction specialists in general say that co-dependency or co-addiction can range in severity. And then the “treatment” for a co addict, is to figure out how to stop letting the addict’s actions affect her. And in general views her efforts to control his behaviors are part of her “illness”.
So the main reason not to go to an addiction specialist if your husband is a so-called addict is that they won’t approach the situation from an abuse perspective.
Betrayal Trauma vs. Codependency Model Used By A “CSAT Therapist near me”
Anne: Which sounds good, because betrayal trauma is the right term to use. Thank goodness it’s not a diagnosis. Healthy women react in a normal way to abuse. So if they use this term betrayal trauma, you’re like, oh, I’ll be in good hands.
But the problem is they’re not using the right model. They’ve just slapped the right word on the same old codependent, co- addict model “treatment.” And so today, with everything we know about abuse, addiction therapists still use the codependent, co-addict model. But instead of saying she needs to recover from her codependency, they say she needs to heal from her trauma. And to heal from her trauma. What does she need to do?
And they’ll tell you the same thing. Not be affected by his actions. So it’s no different than codependency in terms of what they tell you to do and how to interact. They did not and do not identify your normal reaction to abuse. So let’s go through these symptoms one at a time.
The first one denial. They say, if you refuse to see your part in it, then you’re in denial. You’re not in denial. Your husband lied to you. That’s totally different than denial.
Preoccupation Is A Normal Reaction To Abuse
Anne: Preoccupation, well, of course you’re preoccupied. It’s not a sign that you’re sick. It’s a sign that you’re smart. You’re rightfully trying to ensure you’re safe. For example, if someone steals from your online bank account, and you notice a lot of money gone. It would be normal to be preoccupied with checking your bank account every day. You might end up checking it several times a day. That would be a normal thing to do.
They say you’re enabling him by rescuing him. I don’t know what they’re talking about. You want a safe and peaceful home. And so to resist the abuse, you try to get him to stop abusing you because divorce feels unsafe. Breaking up your family feels unsafe. That’s not rescuing him. That is a safety seeking behavior, because you are a completely normal person who loves her husband and wants to protect her family.
And ignoring the abuse will not protect you or your family, and you know that. And so you’re going for help. But then this help tells you that you’re part of the problem.
They say you have emotional turmoil, which is apparently a problem. Your emotions will be all over the place because you’re being groomed. And then overtly abused. Of course, an abused woman is emotionally dysregulated. That makes sense.
They’re saying you are trying to control him. That’s not happening either. You are trying to create safety. They’re saying you’re angry, like it’s a bad thing. You’re angry and fantastic! You should be angry. They’re saying you have “issues.” Nope, you’re just a healthy person who doesn’t want to be intimate with an abuser.
Symptoms Of Abuse Are Normal For Victims
Anne: She could also have physical symptoms. For example, her husband, who’s been cheating on her for years when he bought services from a prostitute, then he doesn’t use protection with his wife. A woman who gets a STI from her husband, who she thinks is monogamous. That’s going to bring all kinds of emotions and reactions, and all of them are normal.
Similarly, her physical safety is on the line here. Having a roof over her head, being able to parent her children. Being able to feed her children. These are also physical risks. She doesn’t want to be out on the street nursing a baby. So to label her emotional reactions as a disease and be like, oh, why is she so angry? Oh, she needs to come at this healing from a place of compassion, not anger, is crazy. She should be angry!
The Reality Of Abuse Is Emotional Ups & Downs
Anne: Some women go numb. When women go numb, many therapists will be like, “Oh, you’re reacting well to this.” It may sound like a compliment, but it’s a veiled threat. Like, “You’re reacting well to this because you’re not reacting at all.” Which actually means if you were reacting in any other way, like becoming angry or having emotional ups and downs or getting up in front of your whole congregation and telling them the whole story. “That is inappropriate,” some may say.
Because most victims cycle through different stages of being numb, crying and angry. The reality is that you’re resisting abuse the best way you know how at the time. Not even understanding it’s abuse. And how you react makes sense. She actually focuses on her own emotional and psychological safety. That’s why she searched for help online.
If her husband’s behaviors didn’t affect her, she wouldn’t be concerned about it. But a CSAT or AASAT or other addiction therapists may tell her that his actions are due to his addiction and don’t have anything to do with her. While simultaneously telling her she’s now suffering from pathological trauma. That she needs to resolve so that the marriage can heal.
Recap Of A The Addiction Circus
Anne: So to recap, a addiction expert will tell you, this isn’t about you. He’s not doing it to hurt you. And you need to heal from the trauma, but they never tell you what the trauma is from. There’s no part of that that makes sense. Even though this has nothing to do with you. This affects you. It hurts you. And you’re not part of the solution.
Women resonate with the abuse model because they ARE abuse victims. And it’s the only thing that makes sense. So after a victim listens to this podcast, she may go back to the addict or the CSAT therapist and say, “Hey, this is abuse.” Even though you’re trying to get to safety, and that’s the intent of confronting your abuser or telling his therapist that it’s abuse.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we teach a safety strategy that helps you avoid confronting them. Because in that case, both the addict and the abuser will deny it. Or they’ll admit it. But it still won’t give you the right solution.
The Ethical Dilemma Of Treating Victim & Perpetraters Together
Anne: So let’s look at the first one, when they deny its abuse. Most addiction, recovery programs or addiction programs, whether the therapist or not, will push back, because if it’s abuse, she doesn’t need therapy. And if she doesn’t need to go to therapy, or she’s not involved somehow. Her husband will not go to therapy.
And I want you to know that the therapist may or may not know that it’s abuse. He might know it’s abuse, but avoid identifying it. Or he might not understand abuse at all, so he says it’s not abuse. If they call it abuse, for whatever reason, they can’t ethically treat both partners in the same setting.
The second the word abuse is brought up, they’ll have to basically say, I’m sorry, I can’t treat you because this is abuse. So they would have zero clients, because in my view it’s always abuse. That would implode their entire practice. And what would they do for a living? That one is about money. And let’s look at the second one when they admit it. But they still don’t give you the right solution. So there’s about a one in a million chance that they are going to identify the abuse.
So they’re going to give you the impression that they can help him. So they’re going to say, “If you keep coming back and work together, he can stop his abusive behaviors. As long as you’re willing to do your part in this relationship. And you’re going to be like, of course, because I want to save my family.”
Most Therapists Are Generally Marriage & Family Therapists
Anne: They’re not going to say to you, “This is abuse, and it’s unethical for me to treat an abuser and a victim. And so I can’t see either of you.” See, if you go to a addiction specialist, they’re likely marriage and family therapists. And the foundation of their training is family systems, which means everybody has a part to play. And it absolutely does take two people to create a healthy relationship, but it only takes one person to destroy that relationship.
A secret life, lying, pathological manipulation, gaslighting, grooming, deflection, withdrawal, coverup, hiding and blaming. None of these things take two people to pull off. One person can do them all by themselves. So whether the addiction specialist identifies the abuse and says, “No, no, no, this isn’t abusive,” or identifies the abuse and tells you, “Yes, it is abuse and I can help you.” Either way, it’s not going to be the right solution for you. The therapist should never, ever be the therapist for an abuser and his victim. Thus, joint counseling does not get you the relief that you’re likely seeking for yourself.
BTR’s Approach To Abuse Is Teaching Safety Strategies
Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t think victims of abuse are pathological. We don’t think victims need treatment. We think victims need to be educated about emotional and psychological abuse and intimate coercion. And since victims resist the abuse by going for help, we teach them effective safety strategies to stay safe. She’s been resisting the abuse the whole time, trying to establish emotional and psychological safety in her home. She just didn’t realize what she was facing.
And not knowing that it was abuse and not knowing that what she was resisting was abuse. She did exactly what she was supposed to do. Which was to go for help. But the problem was that the person she went to for help, did not help her. And that’s not her fault
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we say to victims of abuse, “Hey, you did great. You did exactly what you were supposed to do, and resisted abuse by going for help. You were trying to get to safety. Good job.” And no matter where you are in your journey to emotional and psychological safety.
There are safety strategies that work for everyone, no matter what their situation. Whether you’re still married, living with an abuser in your home, or even post divorce when you’re suffering from post-separation abuse. When he’s using your kids as pawns to continue to manipulate you.
Living Free Workshop Teaches Strategies That Work
Anne: So I’ve created The Living Free Workshop. That will teach you safety strategies that work. As we learn these new safety strategies. It’s important that we interact with other women who have been through this. Who have experienced the same type of wounding, and can hold our experience and our pain and we can do that together in our betrayal trauma recovery group sessions.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, that’s what we’re all about. We’re here for you, and we’re anxious to help you.
The views, opinions, and perspectives expressed in this article, podcast, or related content reflect the personal beliefs, opinions, and experiences of the speaker(s) or author(s). They are not intended to be, nor should they be construed as, definitive statements of fact, professional diagnoses, or legal, medical, or therapeutic advice. BTR provides this content for educational and informational purposes only, based on information available to us at the time of publication. We do not guarantee the applicability of any statements to individual circumstances.
How To Prevent Exploitation – A Conversation with Dawn Hawkins
Feb 20, 2024
Many women who’ve experienced their husband’s exploitation wonder how to prevent exploitation for all victims.
The first step to understanding if your husband exploits you, is to know if he manipulates your emotions for his own gain. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Anne: I have my friend Dawn Hawkins on today’s episode. She is the executive director of the National Center on Sexual Exploitation helps keep women safe in various ways.
Welcome, Dawn.
Dawn: Thank you, Anne. I’m so happy to be here. We love your podcast.
Anne: So I wanted you, Dawn, to talk about how my listeners. who are extremely interested in stopping the harms of inappropriate media can get involved in the fight. What do you need our listeners to do?
Dawn: I have a long list of things that people can do to help in this fight. But let me start by saying, I think one of the weaknesses in the fight to stop exploitation is that often we silo these issues, and they’re all interconnected. It’s important that we look at how inappropriate media is connected to violence against women. And how this type of exploitative content drives demand for human trafficking and prostitution, and how inappropriate media is connected with exploitation.
There’s so much intersectionality. And I think we do a disservice when we try to silo them out. So, if your listeners could take away from this, the need to talk about these issues as connected will help grow the entire movement to prevent exploitation. And I think it will foster more holistic solutions.
Anne: I could not agree more.
Personal Stories Highlighting The Issue
Anne: One woman I recently met is considering whether she should continue to date someone. And I know about his history of using exploitative media. She texted me and she said, “Do you know what type of exploitative media he used? Was it just with women? Or did he see it with children?” She wouldn’t ask this question if she understood this issue. It doesn’t matter what type someone uses. It’s all interconnected, there is severe betrayal trauma from all infidelity.
Dawn: Yeah, most definitely. I would agree with that building on that example. This is really sad.
A young woman that I know well, since she was like a preteen, reached out to me to explain to me her relationship was getting serious. She’s now in her early 20s, and she thinks it’s moving towards marriage, but he’s addicted to this stuff. And he disclosed that to her, and he disclosed he has purchased women for before, and she’s like, “He promises he’s better now.”
“But now what do I do?” She said, “He said he’s been “free” from exploitative media for three months.” So it’s not like he’s made a clear recovery. But also just that connection between inappropriate media and exploitation. And as we know, it often also equates to affairs and all these other types of things later on.
Anne: What she needs to understand and what every woman needs to understand is that any man who participates in exploitative media, when they’re participating in it, is participating in abusive behaviors. Every time you click, it’s abusive. It’s not just abusive to the women in the it, although it is, but also abusive to the person you’re dating or the people around you.
Recognizing Abusive Behaviors
Anne: It’s actually an abuse issue. Someone basically told her, “Well, I was abusive, but I’m not anymore.” She needs to learn about what those abusive behaviors look like, has he changed or not? And we have so many podcast episodes about that.
And she can come here and find how to know if my abusive husband is changing or how to know if he is not using anymore. So our listeners know that they need to set boundaries in their own homes. What can they do on a community level to protect all women or society from the harms of exploitation?
Community Actions To End Exploitation
Dawn: One is to challenge and oppose exploitation whenever and wherever you see it, and that might be nerve wracking, like you’re at the grocery store, and you see a explicit magazine, or you’re at Starbucks, and somebody’s watching exploitative media on their computer right there in front of everybody. Whenever you see exploitation, pointing that out and raising your voice.
It might be terrifying in the moment, but it is so incredibly empowering to know that you have a voice and is being heard. But I also want to share that when other people hear, they might be embarrassed or shy to speak up themselves. They tend to flock in support to help, so you certainly wouldn’t be alone, and others then find the strength to speak up. I think that’s a really important thing to do in your local communities when you want to end exploitation.
Our organization focuses on changing policies that we see as facilitating exploitation. Our work is often focused on corporate policies, but sometimes those policies are government related.
We could use so much help from the public. We need activists signing petitions and sending emails to executives. Just a few examples are Netflix. Netflix argues they’re appropriate for ages four plus. But as probably most of your listeners know, they’ve problematic content often paired next to cartoons that they’re recommending.
This content often has graphic depictions of gendered violence. They have originally produced shows that normalize trafficking of minors. Or domestic violence. We’ve got Instagram, for example, where so many of our young people spend most of their time. And that platform is rife with grooming, bullying, and exploitation.
Corporate Policies & Public Activism
Dawn: Perhaps your listeners could join some of these advocacy campaigns, targeting these big corporations and calling on them to make changes. And to just add a little hope, when we get real, real results. We’ve had huge victories. We got Google, for example, to kick all explicit apps out of Google Play and stop all explicit advertisements.
We got major hotels to stop selling it. And the most exciting thing I think with that hotel win was Hilton hotels. The executives called us and they said. “Can you please stop your campaign? We get 1,000 emails a week from people who are so upset that we’re selling this stuff.” And we said, “Well, we’ll stop it if you meet with us and hear us out.”
And they met with us. And after that meeting, they immediately changed their policies, and then three other major hotel chains also changed their policies. It’s 2 million hotel rooms around the world that don’t have exploitative media through the on-demand system. So I say your voice matters, and you can join these campaigns that we’ve got coming out every week to help create a safer society.
Anne: So how does someone get involved with these campaigns? Do they go to your website? Do they get on your email list? Tell us the process so that they can start taking part in those initiatives to prevent exploitation.
Dawn: If you could sign up for our email list, that’s the best. We send One or two emails a week. And most of the time they’re heavy calls to action and ways that you can get involved locally and on a national and worldwide level.
Fix App Ratings Initiative To End Exploitation
Dawn: Of course, we’re on all social media channels, and we try hard to push out the action alert through those. We’ve an effort called Fix App Ratings. Where we’re calling on the creation of an independent app review board, much like we have for video games. Or the film and television movement, where everything gets rated.
So that parents can make an informed decision about the content their kids watch. Right now, apps all self-rate themselves, Instagram said they’re appropriate for age 12 plus. Snapchat said they’re appropriate for age 12 plus, and yet there’s so much grooming. There’s so much bullying, exploitative media, prostitution and trafficking on those platforms. I found a VPN, a virtual private network. That’s rated E for everyone on the app stores.
https://youtube.com/shorts/GFNykr3Ysw4
You know why that virtual private network is used. All the reviews and comments on it talk about how great it is to watch hardcore exploitative media. And yet they’re saying that that’s appropriate for everyone. I invite your listeners to join that fix app ratings project. There are dozens of organizations behind it, and I think it’s going to win.
Anne: Yeah, that’s one thing I love about you, Dawn, and your work is that you get results. And it’s so hopeful and exciting. So many people, when they hear about trafficking, exploitative media, get kind of depressed. Because it’s so uncomfortable. You can be involved in a way that brings results with an organization like yours. And that’s exciting. Having action steps for people to take is so helpful.
Hopeful Anecdotes Of Change
Dawn: Anne, let me tell you. I think two of the anecdotal stories that give me lots of hope and excitement. One woman reached out to us. She was upset because she’s struggling with infertility issues. And she went to the doctor’s office with her husband to discuss her options.
Her husband went to the restroom. He told her, “There were tons of exploitative media in the bathroom.” And I want to point out that there is only one bathroom for everyone, male, female, and children use the same bathroom. And they just had this stuff stacked in there.
They argue men must watch it to ejaculate. She was upset, and said something to the nurse. Who looked at her like, “What’s the big deal? They need this. And said she would pass on her issues.”
So then she contacted us, and she was like, “I don’t know what to do. This is so wrong. Here we are trying to build a family. And yet it feels like there’s all this stuff that destroys our family right there in the other room.” I suggested she write a letter to the practice, which she did. She called to follow up, and they decided to get rid of the the stuff. It was with her voice. I think that’s so encouraging.
The Power Of Collective Action To End Exploitation
Dawn: Another woman called us frantic, because her little six year old daughter is obsessed with American Girl dolls. Which so many parents understand, and wanted to play a game on the computer. So she sat on her mom’s lap, and together they typed in American Girl doll games into Google.
And unfortunately, up popped horrible exploitative media that was teen themed, unfortunately the six year old daughter saw horrific things. This mom, after telling us the story, reached out to the American Girl dolls. And made sure they knew what was coming up when people typed their name into Google.
They were able to fix it, improve their search engine optimization, and create a bunch of other stuff to push all that stuff down to like the fourth page in Google. And so again, there’s just this encouraging story of a mom raising their voice and seeing results.
Anne: Because women have been so dismissed and abused when it comes to this, like, “Oh, why are you making such a big deal out of this?”
Their husband might say, or society might say that. It’s good to know that they’re part of a giant team working together to all types of exploitation. Rather than thinking they’re alone. Because when you’re alone and isolated in a situation, as my listeners are. Where their husband uses exploitative media, either behind their back and lying to their face or trying to say, “it’s not a big deal.”
Building A Supportive Community
Anne: “Why are you making such a big deal out of it?” You can feel really alone. And so that’s another reason why I wanted you to let women know. It’s not just you. There are thousands and thousands of people across the globe working toward a pornography and exploitation free world.
Dawn: Most definitely. I’m getting chills, because that’s how I feel too. For those who feel alone, it’s so wonderful that they found your network. There’s the Coalition to End this type of exploitation, which our organization directs. It has more than 300 organization members, and we regularly meet. There’s a summit each year, for example. You’re coming, right Anne?
Anne: Yes, I’ll be there.
Dawn: It’s all these people that come together, and it’s for a few days. We become empowered and encouraged, and we learn the research and get strategies. Then it helps buoy us as we go throughout the year, where we often are alone.
We’re fighting our fight where it seems like we might be the only ones. And so there is a community here. Really opposed to exploitation in all of its forms. We’re having so many wins and with more willing to come on board and add their voice or even silently support from the sidelines, it will help tremendously.
Personal Impact & Broader Goals To End Exploitation
Anne: And that’s why we are here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery to help support women in a very personal way, with a very personal situation. That’s what it’s about. What you are doing, really, is all about making individuals healthy, happy, and safe. It really comes down to how exploitative media affects individuals and individual families.
Dawn: Most definitely would agree.
Anne: So Dawn, I’m sure that now after listening to you and listening to these success stories, our listeners want to get involved. So I want you to repeat one more time your website and how they can join your email list.
Anne: Awesome. You’re amazing, Dawn. I’m so excited to see you at the summit.
How Does Infidelity Harm Victims? – Hillevi’s Story
Feb 13, 2024
If men knew how deeply their actions affected victims, would they continue to lie and manipulate? Infidelity leaves lasting, painful trauma that can affect a victim’s life for years after the betrayal.
Hillevi was born in Valparaiso, Indiana. In 1993 she married her now-husband. Together with their five children, they lived a dream marriage until Hillevi discovered his secret life of infidelity in 2013, shortly after they moved to the mountains of Colorado.
Supporting Victims of Infidelity
Hillevi has listened to this podcast from the beginning. She has been a devoted supporter of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, not just emotionally, but also financially, by supporting the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. I want to thank her for her continued support to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because this podcast is due in part to Hillevi and women like her who support this podcast.
Hillevi: Thank you so much because you too have done a lot to support the rest of us women who have experienced infidelity, I listen avidly to your podcast.
What I Felt Was Like A Sisterhood
Anne: You said that you were listening from the very beginning where I was sort of a mess crying in the microphone. Fumbling around trying to figure this out. You have seen in real-time me come into my full understanding and power that I’m in now. Which is so different than I was four years ago. Just for our audience, you witnessing that real-time, what did you observe?
Hillevi: I felt like I was walking through everything I went through from the onset of my discovery of my husband’s betrayal, and what I felt was like a sisterhood. You were expressing things, feeling things in real-time. I had just passed through some of those emotions and was still struggling to find my way through this and maintain my marriage.
It was very much just kind of a give and take of: I hear you, I understand, I’ve been there, I’m going through that again. It’s not just a single straight path of a timeline. It was definitely great to have you along for the ride or me along for your ride.
The Codependency Model Blames Victims
Anne: And vice versa because we’re all in this together in this journey of healing from infidelity. It’s really cool to be part of that collective community. When someone has an epiphany and they let me know about it then I can podcast about it and that helps other women have epiphanies.
We’re all working together to come out of the fog. Also, I feel like all of us are genuinely praying for truth and for peace.
The Lord is guiding all of us sort of collectively together to find these things out. I think it’s interesting that so many of us started with a codependency model, and spoiler you’re not codependent! Then we’ve all sort of independently or together found this abuse model. It really is the only thing that makes sense.
Hillevi: Oh, absolutely. I remember in the 80s I was dating a drummer. He was one of those off again on again, I love you now but now I need other women and then come back to me. A girlfriend gave me the book Women Who Love Too Much, and many people who listen know that book.
I didn’t know if that rang true or not, it just seemed like it put too much of the blame on me. Rather than, you know I need to just walk away and just stand up and stop accepting abuse. That’s kind of where I started in understanding the, just the codependency model was so, so wrong. It was blaming the victim.
Infidelity & Victim Blaming
Anne: So, let’s talk about that victim blaming that happened to you. It was around you in the 80s and 90s. Your bio mentions that you went to some workshops on “How to be a Godly Woman”, and about “The Total Woman Workshops”. I’m not aware of these. Were these really popular back then?
Hillevi: Oh, it was so popular. Maribel Morgan author of The Total Woman, appeared on everybody’s television from Donahue to whatever. Christian women needed to learn to totally submit. And also subject yourself to your husband’s whims and desires, and dress like he wants you to. That little scene in Fried Green Tomatoes, if you remember, when Kathy Bates wraps herself in saran wrap. That was from The Total Woman. I kid you not.
That kind of feeling that if you were a truly godly woman. You would take that one verse out of Ephesians 5, you know, and just put that as the idol in your home. You must submit. I just was too rebellious in nature to submit.
Indfidelity & The Concept Of “Submitting” Oneself
My father hated that; my father was alive at the time. I was very very fortunate to grow up with a dad who said you can become anything, anyone you want. There is no limit, there’s no glass ceiling, and so my dad really hated what he saw me becoming.
He asked me to please go back and read the whole Bible. I was very very fortunate to have dad, he really helped open my eyes up to that. Both my parents were World War II veterans, but they both went to college afterward. My mother was a journalist, and my dad was a businessman in the lumber business.
They were both educated, and he really guided me, my father did. My mom died when I was very young. My father and my grandfather also were very good guidance as to what love and a good husband are, I just didn’t find it…yet.
Anne: So, what did you try while you were in this sort of total Woman crazy trendy church teachings phase where you were kind of submitting yourself to these misogynistic ideas?
Misogynistic Ideas
Hillevi: Well, the first thing was when I got married. I toured as a Christian artist at the time, and he immediately wanted me to give up singing in public. He wanted me to stay at home, have babies, take care of the house, and to serve him. I was not to be elevated in public with the music.
We started a church for instance, and I would be singing praise songs in church, but my voice does carry. And if somebody would turn around and say oh, I love your voice, we wouldn’t go back to that church. He told me to step back. And let him be the sole source of devotion from everybody around him. So that was the first thing.
Dressing the way he wanted me to dress, cook the food he wanted me to cook, that kind of thing. If started talking about something and he wasn’t interested, said not interested. I had to just accept that.
It was a pretty hard time in my life. I rebelled and stood up to him. Then of course the people around us who were very much into The Total Woman said that I was truly a rebel, and I was not honoring God. They must shun me. So, they shunned me.
Anne: Spiritual abuse. Wow.
Hillevi: Yes, it was. It was.
Anne: Did you recognize it as that at the time?
https://youtu.be/bTmtR4EfYcY
Recognizing Abuse
Hillevi: Eventually I did. Not at the beginning. I thought it was just all connected, but it didn’t take me long. My grandfather didn’t like him, my father didn’t like him. As I said, they were really trying to help me find my own, but I was young and ignorant.
I was 18 when I got married. My life became very quickly filled with my children. I eventually just learned to walk away, to stand up. My friends from that era, we just kind of laugh about the stupid things we did at that time, thinking they were right. And that’s not to say that there isn’t a given take in a good marriage, but this was abuse. This was, you will do as I say. That is total abuse.
Anne: That’s really interesting, especially coming up in a different time period.
Hillevi: I just want to tell you that I’m not an old 65. My arm is in a sling right now because I had rotator cuff surgery last week. From a bad zip lining experience, so I’m one of the young 65 people.
Anne: Of course. Well, I feel like I’m a super old 43-year-old. I feel the opposite. I feel like I just want to eat pudding and lay on the couch. You know, how can I not walk up and down the stairs, you know, that kind of thing.
Hillevi: I just did my 10,000 steps yesterday. I’m back on my feet, getting ready to get this off I hope soon. I love life in the mountains and that keeps you young too. I have grandkids, and we do stuff together, and I want to be a young grandparent.
Anne: Yeah
Hillevi: I love it.
Generational Contexts of Infidelity
Anne: The reason I bring up that age difference is that we all have these cultural and perhaps religious scripting that is working against us. That we don’t realize, that is a part of our generation. It’s a part of our time. And right now, for the kids, you know the 20-year-olds, it’s like pornography is normal. Infidelity is fine. You’re totally sex-negative if you’re not into it, and if you’re not sexting. So that’s the generation they’re growing up in.
The one that I grew up in was that you are there to help a man and stay at home. I guess what I mean is you know when I was going to college, I never thought about what career do I want. It was what do I need to graduate in so that I can have a job where I can make sure that I can be a mom.
It wasn’t like what do I really want to do? I really want to be an astronaut, you know, or I really want to do this. Which I didn’t want to be an astronaut, but I certainly at that time was not thinking I want to be a podcaster, that’s for sure.
It Was His Secret Life
Hillevi: I know, am blessed that I returned to college. It is wonderful because while I loved the theater, I also became very fascinated with technology and media history. That began to open my eyes to a whole another realm of what we were doing.
The history of media and what it was doing to form our culture. Not in a good way, you know, in a very, very bad way. So, when everything came out with my husband, who by the way, helped put me through school. It thrilled him. He’d already been through college, so he knew I wanted to do it.
When everything came out about his infidelity, I guess I was prepared in many ways in that I saw what the music industry. The theater industry, the film industry, all of what it was doing and creating in our society. I just thought he was above that. I truly thought he wouldn’t have that kind of attitude, that he did, but it was his secret life.
Anne: And you discovered that in 2013?
Discovering Her Husband’s Infidelity
Hillevi: Yes. Yeah. When we moved here, he works out of our home, and I was really excited to work for Apple for a while. So I’m kind of an Apple guru. He got an Apple computer and I became his techie. Never in a million years thought he was going into exploitative material.
He was involved with that before we were married when he was in the band. I had no idea because he knew how I hated it. So, it absolutely shocked me when I was doing some cleanup work on his computer. To all of a sudden pull out the preferences and find out that he had passwords for these sites. Discovering his infidelity was a real wake-up call.
Aftermath Of Discovering Infidelity
At this point, you find out about his use. You begin, would we say decades of terrible counseling, or maybe just one decade of terrible counseling? You talk about the horror stories of trying to navigate through the “addiction” the addiction”recovery world without the context of abuse. Why that was so damaging to you and also to your husband.
Hillevi: When you find these things out, that your husband is looking at these sites and visiting prostitutes. You take a lot of turns. Infidelity is so heartbreaking. The first one you do is try desperately to find help. I was very fortunate, initially in that I went to my church, and my counseling pastor there said, oh, well, this is horrible.
We want to pay for you to get the kind of counseling you need. The woman he sent me to, we had sung together in the worship team, so I knew her, and I knew she wasn’t a crazy. I knew when I walked into her office and started crying like crazy, she was a comfort, she was a delight, she was helpful.
She helped direct me in great ways, but they paid for about six weeks of counseling right at the beginning. Through those six weeks, my husband hadn’t yet confessed everything. He had that lovely attribute of wanting to do the drip, drip, drip, we all know what that is.
“Drip” Confessions Of Infidelity
Anne: For listeners who might not know what that is, although I think everyone does, it’s where they just tell a part of the truth in a drip fashion. So, you’re just getting a little bit of the truth every once in a while.
Hillevi: Absolutely. When his infidelity came out, a lot of things happened in succession. He ended up in a one-week hold psychological evaluation because he said he was going to kill himself. They sent him there. And of course, he wasn’t really, he was just trying to get out of everything. He didn’t tell the truth the whole time he was there, but they did recommend a counselor.
The counselor asked to speak with me. He told me my husband was a lying SOB who was still hiding a bunch of stuff. This is a Christian counselor, so it was a lot for him to say that. So, on my way home from that, I said hey, we’re going to get a polygraph test, and he started backpedaling.
They don’t work, they’re not allowed in court. The usual excuses. And that’s when I knew that he hadn’t told me everything, but he wanted to leave that particular counselor.
Anne: Because that counselor was on to him, right, so he wanted a new one?
Hillevi: Oh yeah.
Victim Blaming Through Counseling
Hillevi: We went to another counselor for a very short period of time who immediately wanted to delve into his history, his family, and all of that blah blah blah blah blah. But he’s the kid that grew up with great parents. His mom warned me that Darry was a very selfish person, and she was very disappointed in his selfishness as an adult, but she was so glad that he married me.
Okay, so that counselor, I walked away from. Eventually, it landed us at Heart to Heart Counseling Center in Colorado Springs. For those of you who don’t know, that’s where Dr. Doug Weiss is in Colorado Springs, and we went to one of the counselors there who, how shall I say this, he started the same things all over again.
Well, it must be something connected to his past, his parents, and all that, and it wasn’t. He had said to me point blank, it’s because he’s selfish. It was because he had prostitutes and exploitative material on the road when he was a traveling musician before he became a Christian. One day he just decided, I’m going to go in Sex World in Minnesota, that was a strip club type of thing, and got back into it.
He eventually had to come to grips with the fact that now I knew there were a series of prostitutes and everything. And so, he started going to a 12-step at Dr. Weiss’s facility, and things were coming up that I didn’t like, things that didn’t seem, how shall I say this, humbling. It was well, we need to go back to physical intimacy right away. Right after infidelity.
Hillevi: Yes. Yeah. He had found that they were balancing the need to get right back into having it again. I went to one 12-step group myself where they told me that I should not control his recovery. I am not entitled to the pain of being rejected.
Anne: What? Whoa, whoa, whoa. You are not entitled to feel the pain of infidelity? This is why I created my betrayal trauma support group.
Hillevi: Yeah.
Anne: Wow.
Hillevi: That’s an actual quote, and I needed to stop expressing my anger to my spouse. That we needed to make a sex chart, it was kind of a calendar, where we would decide who was going to lead sex every night of the week.
He Had To Take Responsibility For His Infidelity
Hillevi: It wasn’t so subtle. Extreme victim blaming. Then we started comparing notes on some things that were said. I tried to look at it in the light of what God says a relationship is. He started to listen. He still hadn’t confessed everything yet.
When he would be dismissive of something I would just stop him, and I say why are you dismissing my feelings? You were saying what you did doesn’t have an effect on me? He started to see how much he hurt me. My health deteriorated, and he had to take responsibility for me having a hysterectomy. For me passing out and hitting my head and suddenly having to get surgery with little holes drilled in my head. I had a subdural hematoma from the shock that he was dumping on me every time he’d make a confession.
So, these are big things that he had to find out, and he realized the counseling that he was getting wasn’t working at all. We eventually did find a counselor who anytime I would say something he would look at Darry and say, are you listening, are you listening, you’re the cause of this.
This Is All You
This is not her. This is all you, and he woke up a little. But until he really got to that point where he could hear what he was doing without making an excuse. When he could own the things that he had done without saying the word but I.
That’s when he started humbling himself truly, I will be honest there, but it’s not saying he immediately changed. It took years to get down the road. He said to me, I want to spend the rest of my life making this up to you. I want to do everything I can to show you that I love you and I’m willing to sacrifice for you, and that meant not making excuses, that meant learning how to tell the truth. He truly wanted to make his infidelity up to me.
One thing I’ve heard you say, and guests on the podcast say, it seems like telling the truth is the last thing to heal. Right after, you know, The Ten Commandments. The seventh is you shall not commit adultery, the eighth is thou shalt not steal, and the ninth is don’t lie, and they all work in there.
He was stealing from me in the sense that he was taking our marriage and his infidelity had made it into something it wasn’t. It was not an open marriage. You can’t be married with three or four people in a marriage. I think that’s the most important thing when we as women turn around and look and we want to stay in the marriage.
Honesty & Transparency Are Essential In Marriage
We can only stay in the marriage if the husband is willing to lay down his life before God and acknowledge everything that he has done to you, to your children. To those around who looked at him, respected him. It had to be open, and that meant, everybody knew what was going on.
Anne: The stories that you’re telling, about bad therapy, where they’re basically enabling the abuser and further harming the victim. Is that what you’re seeing?
Hillevi: Oh yeah. He did that with a couple of them along the way, but the only thing that really matters is that true transparency. This is why I couldn’t understand, I mean there were a bunch of other therapists we try one or two times, but they would not want me in the room to validate, you know, what he was saying. And how can you listen to just one side in this. When they’ve openly said yes, I’m a liar, admitted infidelity. I’m seeing women on the side, but that therapist believes everything he says?
Anne: Right.
Hillevi: Over anything else?
Anne: Absolutely not. We have found that even in the DV, which is domestic violence, a lot of people believe that the victim lies and that the perpetrator is telling the truth. Like well, this is the first time he’s done this, you know, that kind of thing. You’re like no, this has been happening for years. It’s just the first time she found out about it.
C.S. Lewis’s Work
Anne: I’m so happy to talk about C.S. Lewis. My son just read all The Chronicles of Narnia. How C.S. Lewis Helped Hillevi
Hillevi: I’ve loved C.S. Lewis since I was a little girl, and read The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Someone gave it to me because my mother had just died of leukemia, and I was nine years old. I spent a lot of that first year after her death inside my closet, just hoping that I could get out into Narnia. C.S. Lewis’s work became so important to me.
In high school, I read The Screwtape Letters. Which for those of you who aren’t familiar with The Screwtape Letters. It’s a series of letters that really list very thoroughly, all the methods of temptation that the devil tries to lead us into and different techniques to rag our souls, our spirits away from the one true God.
Understanding The Different Types of Love
So, he talks about the way media has drugged men into looking at the ideal woman and he goes through the different time periods of how she dresses, how she looks, how she carries herself, but perceive the woman always as an object, and it was so eye-opening to me.
I really, really encouraged people to read C.S. Lewis’s Four Loves. When he talks about love, in the book he talks about storge, which is the affection, the appreciation of a person. It’s kind of the love from parent to child, it’s a humble love. Philia love, where we get the City Philadelphia, it’s the brotherly love, it is the friendship love.
“So Many Of Them Are Incapable Of Affection”
Anne: Before you move on, it strikes me that with addicts are incapable of even just the affection part, that basic type of love that you talked about. Like, step one, that so many of them are just even incapable of affection.
Hillevi: You’re right. You notice his first quote that I gave talks about you can selfishly wrap yourself up, and not even feel, but you’ll never experience love. And addicts don’t experience love. What they think they’re experiencing is eros, which we all know we all hear the words eros, oh yeah, that’s physical love.
That physical desire, but it isn’t. It’s an intimacy, a romantic love. A physical desire without eros wants it, it wants just sex, as the verb, but what eros really is, is eros, desires one being, the beloved. That’s what eros is.
What Is “Agape”?
It’s so misinterpreted. It isn’t just hey, I’ve got a great feeling, you know, scratch my itch and move on. That’s what we say today, that’s what we’re told love is, and it isn’t. You’ve heard the word of agape, right? That’s the Greek word, but that is the final of the four loves.
That is the divine selfless love, the giving love, and we think of that as Christ and his giving himself for us. That’s what we look at, but it is also the love that is described in Ephesians 5. When a husband must love his wife, that agape, and lay his life down for her, that’s what true love is.
It’s not something that comes naturally. It is something that is learned because you begin with storge, I mean to the affection, the philia, the friendship, and the agape is something we hope happens throughout life, that we lay down our lives for one another. That’s why when we see love on television or in a movie or read in a book, and the emphasis seems to be just on the physcial relationship, it is the most misguided use of the word love.
Using Art To Process Infidelity
Anne: I love talking with women who have been in trauma who have used art and literature, and you know theater in your case, in my case I garden a lot, or different modes of processing to help us move through the trauma. It also helps give us these epiphanies or these new things to learn and gives us a way to have that post-traumatic growth.
To grow through the experience. We can come out the other side better people and more knowledgeable and have more depth to us as a result of the infidelity.
Hillevi: The arts reveal ourselves. I mean, there are people who I think are misguided that say, “Well, we should show everything as an art, the good, the bad, the very bad, the obscene. I remember doing Oliver once, and I sat down with my students and we talked about the character Nancy and Oliver, and how she was a very sad and abused character, Bill Psyches beats her.
Anne: Isn’t she the one that sings As Long as He Needs Me? Everyone should listen to that and realize we’ve all been Nancy.
It’s Really Important That Every Woman Can Tell Her Story
Hillevi: Yeah. I played Nancy, yes, with a drummer, that first drummer I talked about. Yeah, he was in the pit orchestra, and I was playing Nancy. I talked with the kids about the abuse because we were going to have to act it out. We’re working with high school kids or middle school kids, and they have to act out this abuse that happens to her.
I always like to have a percentage of our profits of our shows go to some cause, some organization, and my kids 100% on their own said we want our profits to go to a battered women’s shelter, and my heart just sang because they understood. They understood that this was not right.
The actress that played Nancy in my school production was phenomenal. She has gone on to fight civil rights causes now. I absolutely am so proud of her for that. You know, we use art to teach. I mean what we do right here in our conversation, is the art of conversation, and it’s the art of storytelling. And it’s really important that every woman can tell her story.
Anne: And that’s what this podcast is for. That any woman with a story of abuse, of betrayal, who wants to come and share is welcome here. And that is what makes this podcast so amazing, I think, is that the stories are all very different. The details are different, but the patterns are the same and so as we hear story after story after story, we can start seeing these very clear patterns of abuse and what it looks like and that helps us make better decisions in our own lives.
BTR Helps Women Find Community
Hillevi: The women whose husbands are not going to be open and vulnerable and generous, generous with everything. If he wants to hold back money from you and not take care of you, that love that we just spoke about, that giving love, that’s not there.
So, you go through these years of abuse, these years of psychological fog we’ll call it, and then you go through years of bad therapy, and then you have a good therapist, which is awesome, and then you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Can you talk about how you found BTR?
Hillevi: Oh yes, sister. We were still in our yucky stage at that time. I was looking for anyone who truly understood what the abuse was, the pain I was feeling. Your tears transcended into my heart because I cried with you while I was driving. I was identifying with you.
To find you though, I was looking up every single podcast I could find that had to do with marriage, betrayal, and infidelity and there were a lot of them and there were a lot of bad podcasts. I had a 45-minute drive through the mountains and the beautiful Rocky Mountain forests to work, to teach, and 45 minutes coming home. And so, I would download my podcasts every single day and I went through so many really bad teachings.
Philia Love Means Understanding & Compassion
Anne: From other podcasts?
Hillevi: Yes, one guy that kept telling women how important it was that their body was. You know, their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and is to be glorified by their husband. Oh well, you know, all the bad things that are out there, but there was nobody being vulnerable, and you were vulnerable.
I came upon you, and I remember just hearing you cry and crying along with you, and the vulnerability of the walks that you had. The one in particular that tore my heart out, was your trip to Disneyland.
Anne: Was it Legoland?
Hillevi: Maybe it was Legoland, but you’d had a big fight in the car outside.
Anne: Yeah. So, it was Legoland. This was after the fact. He wrote this letter telling me he was so sorry about the day he was irritable at Legoland, on July 3, 2015. Like this specific day, right, and that was all he was saying sorry for and sent me $300. Is that the one?
Hillevi: Yeah, yeah. That’s the one. Oh, I just wish I could have called you. Here’s another $300. What an absolute jerk. I’m sorry, you know I hate to keep jumping back to C.S. Lewis, but that philia love. What, you too? I thought I was the only one, right. I felt a friendship right there.
Victims Of Infidelity Deserve Love
You were being vulnerable and allowing yourself to share things that were happening in your life, and trying to find some sort of peace, trying to figure out where your life was going.
I was in that same space. Where am I going, what am I doing, how am I going to make it through tomorrow when I’ve got to go home tonight? I think the key was hearing the words, betrayal trauma, I had’t heard infidelity described that way. Then the word recovery because that’s what I was seeking. Betrayal trauma recovery. It became listening to you over and over every day.
Anne: Well, I’m so honored and so grateful. That I was the one that stuck with you because I felt like I’m just podcasting into the abyss. I didn’t know if anyone was listening, or if I even made sense, and you know, even now.
I have this sense that I have interviewed so many people and read so many books and, you know if I could get a Ph.D. in abuse. Essentially, you know, I have all this education now that I didn’t have before through this podcast. It has given me the motivation and the means to do that and interview all these incredible people.
I still don’t know what I don’t know. You know, I’m still on this journey. That for me is still a vulnerable place to be. I’m still podcasting, in real-time. I’m still saying, “Help me.”
Recovery From Infidelity Is A Process
Recently, some things have come to my attention that were huge that I didn’t know before about legal things and custody things There’s so much to process and to understand and to visualize and to, you know, put into infographics that we post on all the social media and stuff like that.
You can only really understand it when you’re living with it every day. It’s not the kind of thing that you can just go to a couple of classes and then say, oh, I know all about this trauma thing. I know everything that a victim will probably experience.
Because it takes years to gather up all this information and all the experience and face all the problems and having to problem solve this. Again, that’s why I’m so grateful that it’s a community because I hear what’s going on, and then I’m like, oh, you know, women are having trouble about boundaries, how can we teach this in a way that helps make sense of it.
That’s why I made The Living Free Workshop. I just don’t think that you can anticipate all of the problems a victim is going to face unless you’re actually a victim, actually going through it.
Hillevi: Absolutely, and each day is another step. If you listen to your beginning podcast where you started out and listen to where you are now, there are all sorts of steps we go through. The thing that disappoints me the most, not about your podcast, is that it seems like so few men really get it.
Your Own Husband Has Turned Into Someone Who is Harming You
Anne: I want to say here that for every man who does not understand this, for every man who chooses to defend himself rather than repent, rather than change his behavior. You have a woman and children being abused. This isn’t just a scenario where, oh, it’s too bad for him because he doesn’t get it.
This is a scenario where women, even if they’re divorced, are continually exposed to someone who is emotionally and psychologically dangerous for them, who harms them. It’s way more serious than just, oh, he doesn’t get it, or she wants me to change and I’m not changing, because the results are suffering.
Serious suffering throughout the world, at the hands of someone who should be really genuinely caring and protecting you. Your own husband who has turned into someone who is harming you frequently.
Infidelity Seriously Harms Victims
Anne: What I would like men to understand is that your refusal to repent is continuing to harm your wife and children or your ex-wife and your children.
Hillevi: Adultery is mentioned 52 times in the Bible, not including the 10 Commandments. The only sins that are spoken of more than adultery are pride, self-righteousness, murder, and placing other gods in front of the one true God. That’s it.
Adultery is right there on those top four. And interestingly enough, putting the God of self or idolatry is what leads to infidelity. And self-righteousness or pride also leads to infidelity. For some reason, there are writers out there in the recovery for men area that seem to think that the problems will be solved, that I still need it, it is a need, and they’ve just made an idol out of it, and they don’t get it.
And their selfish righteousness, I’m going to be sexually successful. I think you and I both know who I’m talking about with that. It’s about humbling yourself, because everything else that you do is sheer torture to your wife, to your family, and to those who love you enough to tell you the truth.
Anne: Their actions are torturing their wife and children or their ex-wife and their children. And another word that I like in this sense is, women are being haunted by the decisions of the men in their lives. They cannot escape the negative consequences of that abuse on a long-term basis.
How Does Infidelity Affect Victims?
They’re trying to, they’re doing the best they can, but the consequences for women in this situation are pretty dire. We do our best to combat it and to live, you know, a peaceful life on our own . This is why God made these commandments in the first place. The consequences of infidelity are really, really bad to the victims.
I don’t think that the abusers feel the consequences that much. If they did, they’d probably stop. Because the consequences to them aren’t really that big of a deal. You know, why is she so freaked out about it. What’s her deal?
Hillevi: You hit the nail on the head. The initial conversation, I remember I was having with Darry at the very beginning, it was just physical. I just wanted different sex, it’s no big deal. Now, this is coming from a guy who’s been in church and on a worship team and knows all those commandments. He knows what the Word of God has to say about purity.
It was like it was nothing, and infidelity had no consequences on my heart. The idea of two becoming one, that intimate weaving of our flesh, of our spirits, of our minds. It was like, that was all out the window. At some point, his heart was so hardened, that he could look me in the eyes and say, but it was just physical. WOW!
Support the BTR Podcast
Anne: Hillevi, it has been amazing to spend this time with you. Like you said, just talking to my friend. We’ve been friends from afar but definitely kindred spirits, which is why I use the name Anne Blythe. So, thank you so much for coming on these episodes.
Hillevi: Thank you so much for asking me to be here and be a part of this wonderful ministry that you have.
Anne: If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. Until next week, stay safe out there.
Your Abusive Husband’s Therapist – 5 Things To Watch For
Feb 06, 2024
Are you considering trying to convince your husband to go to therapy? Or making a therapy appointment for your difficult husband? Is your husband’s therapist making things worse? Anne Blythe, M.Ed. covers the 5 things you need to consider before making a decision.
Many professionals avoid using the word “abuse” and instead use words like “harm” or “mistreat” because they don’t want to hurt the abuser’s feelings. A therapist who uses the word “abuse” holds the perpetrator accountable and acknowledges the very real pain that the victim is experiencing.
5 Thing To Watch For If You’re Condsidering Helping Your Husband go To Therapy:
Did your husband make the appointment without you mentioning that he needs therapy?
Think about why you want him to go to therapy. Is it for a basic thing that he should already know how to do, like tell the truth?
When an abusive man has appointments set for him by his victim, he uses the therapist to manipulate his victim. Is there a way to determine if he’s abusive before you suggest therapy to him?
If he’s abusive, he’ll use the therapy as leverage for more emotional and psychological abuse.
Since a therapist is likely to pin the cause of his abuse on common inaccurate reasons like childhood trauma, addiction, or personality disorder, etc, the abuser will be happy to use that “diagnosis” to justify his behavior and continue his lying and manipulation.
Transcript: Your Husband’s Therapist – 5 Things To Watch For
Anne: It’s just me today. I want to talk about your abusive husband’s therapist. It’s the most natural thing to consider finding a therapist for your husband when he exhibits abusive behaviors like lying, manipulation, basically any unhealthy behavior. Anyone’s going to tell you to go to therapy, right? But at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know something therapists don’t know.
We know what women who have been through this know: Abuse happens in the context of our society and the socially acceptable ways that people interact. Men know that to assert control, they’ll need to manage their image. So it was the girlfriend who became his wife. All the people at their church, their clergy and their therapist view him as a particular sort of person. So he has control, and he can maintain that control.
And over time, he’ll chip away at her sense of self and her support system. So she becomes more and more unsure and isolated. He pulls her more and more away from her own internal warning system. These men are smart. Men know that women resist abuse. Men know that women don’t like lies, manipulation and coercion. Only psychologists and therapists think women fail to resist abuse. Men know well that women will resist it.
So they need to do it carefully and very covert ways, because they know that if they get caught, women will resist even more. We know they know this because they don’t act overtly abusive in the beginning. Narcissists groom victims to appear kind, loving, generous, and selfless. Because they know women don’t want to be treated badly. They know how to act appropriately. Men know that women want to be respected. So he acts like he respects you.
Your Husband’s Therapist Has Misconceptions
Anne: Psychologists are confused because they’re like. “Why would you be with someone who doesn’t respect you?” And you’re like, well, men are smart. They know what women want. And they also know how to get what they want in a way that seems socially acceptable. Through grooming, lying and manipulation, and lying is emotionally abusive.
So when we learn about abuse, it’s important to look at how the abusive husband’s choices can’t be severed, from how the victim resists. And then how society views her resistance and responds to that resistance. Resisting abuse with supportive people who understand it’s abuse is totally different than trying to resist abuse when the abuser has collected a team of helpers to extend his abuse.
Here’s an example of resisting abuse. One member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community decided to have lunch with her abusive ex. She was terrified of him, but she was weighing her safety needs. Not consciously, but subconsciously, she was willing to trade her emotional safety for financial safety. To resist his financial abuse, she hoped that if she had lunch with him, he would be more inclined to pay for the kids’ extracurricular activities.
https://youtube.com/shorts/pjEKsR_cvy8
But a therapist might say something like. Why would you meet someone who’s been emotionally and psychologically abusive to you? Because they don’t get it. Despite her willingness to forgo emotional safety for financial safety, the lunch did not go well. When I talked to her, she felt ashamed that she didn’t anticipate how badly the lunch would go.
And she said, Anne, I’m so weak. Why can’t I just say no to him? And I suggested she was resisting the abuse by thinking the lunch may make things better. I helped her realize she’s always been resisting the abuse.
Five Things To Consider Before Therapy
Anne: So the topic of today, which is your abusive husband’s therapist. If you think getting a therapist for your husband may help, that is a form of resistance to abuse. It just means you’re trying to figure it out, and you’re smart and need help. And so you’re going for help. The problem is that no one teaches victims of abuse that therapy is dangerous in this situation. So here are five things to consider before looking for your abusive husband’s therapist.
1st Thing To Consider: He Hasn’t Acquired Himself A Therapist
Anne: Number one, if your husband was concerned about his behavior, he’d get himself a therapist. If he hasn’t acquired himself a therapist without you demanding it or bringing it up, therapy will not help him. So that’s the number one thing.
2nd Thing To Consider: Think About Why You Want Him To Attend Therapy
Anne: Number two. Think about why you want him to attend therapy. This is an act of resistance to abuse. But think about what you want him to stop doing. Is it to stop lying? Soliciting prostitutes, being manipulative, being very irritable, unkind and demanding. If you’re thinking, I need him to go to therapy so he can stop lying. I get it. You’re resisting the abuse. I did this for a long time.
I spent seven years trying to get my abuser more and more therapy, trying to get therapists to help. Therapy won’t help him, because he already knows the lying is wrong. He already knows. He hears this from all over the place. He’s heard it in church. His parents have told him. Society has told him don’t lie, don’t be manipulative. This is how to be a nice person. He can act that way. He’s acted that way before. He’s able to.
But he has exploitative privilege and doesn’t want to give up the benefits that come from exploitative privilege. So if your aim is to have a therapist teach your husband the basics of decent human behavior. Like the lowest bar, which is don’t lie to your wife. That’s like the lowest bar. If that’s why you want him to go to therapy, think about that. Because therapy’s not going to help if someone has already heard that this is not an okay way to act, and they consistently choose to act this way.
If they didn’t want to act that way, they would already have a different character. They would have made different choices throughout their lives.
3rd Thing To Consider: If You Insist On Therapy, He May Manipulate The Therapist
Anne: If you arrange for your husband to see a therapist, or insist he attend therapy, again, this is you resisting the abuse. This is a safety seeking behavior, and it makes total sense that you’re doing this under the circumstances. Because everybody thinks therapy will be good. What they don’t tell you is that therapy generally increases an abusive man’s abusiveness. And here’s how you can know if it has increased his abusiveness.
So number three, if you arrange for your husband to see a therapist, or insist he attend therapy, if he comes home and claims his therapist wants to meet with you. If he does this, it’s likely that he’s manipulated the therapist into believing that you are the issue. And in this case, he’s going to use therapy to escalate his emotional and psychological abuse with the therapist as his partner in the abuse. The therapist is unaware they’ve been manipulated.
And if you go in, they’re going to start to say, “Hey, he has these needs that he’s worried about. He hasn’t felt safe enough to tell you up until this point.” And then they manipulate you into supporting your abuser. They trap you.
4th Thing To Consider: He May Leverage Therapy To Escalate Abuse
Anne: Number four. If your abusive husband returns home and either manipulates his therapist’s words against you, or lies about what the therapist said in his session, he’s leveraging therapy to escalate his emotional and psychological abuse. So if that’s happening, you know, that therapy is making things worse for you.
5th Thing To Consider: Childhood Issues Don’t Cause bad Behavior
Anne: And number five, childhood trauma, stress, shame, attachment issues, and other factors don’t cause abusive behavior. There are lots of people with childhood trauma. They’re not abusers. Everyone I know has felt shame. And not all of them are abusers. I know people with attachment issues, and they’re not abusers. Stress doesn’t cause abuse. When I get stressed, I eat ice cream. I don’t lie to people.
Since therapists don’t recognize abuse as a diagnosable condition. They’re not going to diagnose someone as an abuser. When he goes to therapy, your abusive husband’s therapist will diagnose him with something else, maybe addiction. Maybe an attachment disorder, intimacy anorexia, anxiety, or depression. Maybe he’s going to say his testosterone is too low.
Once that diagnosis has been given, pay attention to its impact on the abuser. Does it motivate him to seek treatment for that specific thing? Or does he just use it as justification? At one point, a therapist suggested to my ex that he had bipolar, and he was like, oh, cool. And that was it. Like, he wasn’t like, oh, really? I need to get some books about bipolar, what can I do to make that better? Like he was like, oh, okay.
So number five includes that if he uses something that the therapist tells him as an excuse or remains active after receiving the therapist’s diagnosis. It’s a sign that he wasn’t interested in changing, despite what he told you. So keep those things in mind, as you’re resisting the abuse and thinking that therapy might help the situation. Part of the reason women resist abuse by trying to get their husband in therapy is her financial and physical safety depends on him.
The Importance Of Dignity
Anne: Similarly, the importance of dignity isn’t widely recognized. A therapist will likely interpret incorrectly the actions she’s taken to preserve her dignity in the face of abuse. The therapist will say you’re part of the problem because you’re sending your husband mixed signals. You might take action to preserve your dignity. And the therapist will say, well, you couldn’t have been scared of him because you stayed in the house. But often they’re missing that part about dignity.
It’s so clear when you understand that women resist abuse by demanding dignity. A woman refuses to leave her home, even if she’s scared. Because she demands dignity. She loves her home. She’s lived in that neighborhood for years. Her kids can walk to school. She’s carefully tended the garden. She’s worked hard to make her home comfortable and nice. And that’s why she’s not going to leave, even if she’s scared. Because to her, that home represents her dignity.
Your Husband’s Therapist Misinterprets Actions
Anne: So your abusive husband’s therapist could mistakenly look at emotional and psychological abuse and tell the victim, or even the abuser, it’s her fault because she wouldn’t leave. Or that she didn’t communicate her needs clearly. If she’d just write them down, maybe he could do it. The abuser will tell a therapist. She isn’t willing to be open and transparent, or she’s belligerent.
In other words, everything he’ll say about his wife would lead someone to think, “Oh, I get it. Yeah, she just keeps doing this. It’s just not the smartest.” But we are the smartest sisters. We’re trying to resist abuse in any way we can. So what therapists continually miss is the complete picture of how abuse works. You need to think about the action of the abuser, and then the resistance of the victim.
Here’s an example. He lied to her about his pornography use and masturbation. The way he presented himself very much made her think that he’s kind, loving and considerate. She observed his actions and felt safe with him. It’s not like he seemed unsafe at the time, he was being kind and considerate. Then she expressly told him she didn’t want to marry someone who used exploitative material or have sex with a man who used it.
And he lied to her about his past and present use. Then she expressly told him that she wanted a monogamous relationship, and he lied to her because he wasn’t sure that’s what he wanted, but he knew that telling her. “I don’t know if I want that.” Would cause her to distrust him. How can you live with a husband you don’t trust?
Your Husband’s Therapist Is Unaware Of The Pattern of Control & Manipulation
Anne: They attended church every week together. She wanted to resist abuse by having a strong family. to attend church, study scripture, pray to stay close to God and avoid exploitative material and infidelity. And he always acted as if he agreed with the sermons and that he was totally in line. You can see that deception and manipulation are constant. He makes choice after choice to withhold key information. An attachment disorder or personality disorder doesn’t cause this.
He didn’t just get so that he couldn’t control himself. When you start to see that it wasn’t just one act of deceit, but a pattern of control and manipulation. This wasn’t just one moment. Or he happened to make a mistake. He decided to lie to her over and over again. And every time she resisted, he overpowered her with more lies and more manipulation.
If after this episode, you still think you want your abusive husband to go to therapy, and you convince your abusive husband to get a therapist, or you set up an appointment for him. Your abusive husband’s therapist isn’t going to get this long form fact pattern in terms of his actions and your resistance over time.
Instead, they’ll focus on why he feels the way he feels, what his goals are, and your abusive husband will take that opportunity to talk about his feelings, which revolve around you, the victims, perceived weaknesses and failings. The therapist will not interpret his actions as overt choices. And the abuser will certainly not share with a therapist all the ways you resisted this at every point, and all the ways he got around it.
Your Husband’s Therapist Focuses On Feelings Over Actions
Anne: Your abusive husband’s therapist won’t even ask to get the full picture of the systematic ways your emotionally and psychologically abusive husband has undermined you and overpowered your resistance at every turn. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we consistently recognize how victims like you resist abuse. This insight allows us to anticipate the various tactics your abusive husband might use to overcome your resistance to his abuse.
We know this because we know he’s making deliberate choices at each step. Understanding this helps us empower victims like you, like us, with strategies to ensure our safety, without relying on him to get therapy. I teach these strategies in The Living Free Workshop. Especially when there’s a high chance that he’s going to exploit that situation. Your abusive husband’s therapist could help overpower your resistance.
Since your abusive husband always attempts to conceal his true intentions, any effort you make to expose or reveal the truth will be perceived by him as an act of resistance. And he will inevitably strive to overpower it. Because we can see that pattern, we can help you see it.
It’s important to see this, because an abusive husband always anticipates his wife’s resistance, takes that into account, and makes a plan about how he’s going to overpower it.
Here’s an example: Cyber crime hackers don’t just send random emails, hoping for success. They plan, and they use sophisticated malware. And they create convincing phishing attempts. They anticipate security measures and develop strategies to bypass them.
It’s unlikely they’re targeting major tech companies with robust cybersecurity. Instead, they’re going to focus on businesses with weaker defenses. So they often target individuals who might use simple passwords or outdated software, making them easy targets. Abusive men show this same type of anticipation of resistance.
Your Husband’s Therapist Can Be Manipulated
Anne: Abusive men plan their actions, demonstrate deliberation and skill. They manipulate social perceptions and overpower victim resistance, maintaining control even in seemingly impulsive incidents. Like when I see some of the things these men do, I’m so surprised at how smart they seem, even though what they’re doing is wrong, so baffling that it works so well. They know exactly what they’re doing.
So back to therapy, and your abusive husband’s therapist. Men are a vast majority of mental health professionals. And they have been socialized to prefer to believe a man when he gives excuses for his actions. These abusive husbands are skilled at behaving appropriately in professional or public settings. And all the practice they have every day at work and other professional settings enables them to manipulate therapists. Because that’s a similarly professional setting.
In a therapy session, they know that if they don’t admit some faults, they’re going to look strange. So they’re going to admit some faults. They’re going to mention they have an abusive father, or mention some kind of childhood trauma. They’re going to express regret. They’ll discuss concerns about their wife’s mental health struggles, and claim they want to support their wife. He’ll sound convincing when he tells his therapist, “I just wish she’d let me support her. I love her so much.”
Contrast this with the research Patricia O’Connor conducted. She visited U.S. prisons and interviewed inmates serving life sentences. She asked them, how did you get here, and recorded their responses. And remarkably, these men often reflected candidly on their own personal responsibility, as they had nothing to hide given their life sentences.
Men Have Control Over Their Actions
Anne: Her research shows these men knew their actions were wrong and chose to do it anyway. However, with your abusive husband’s therapist, he is often encouraged to discuss feelings or reasons, rather than focus on actions and choices. Consequently, therapy can unintentionally allow men to mask their harmful behavior toward their wife with socially acceptable responses.
I find it reassuring for victims to realize that men have full control over their actions. I find it reassuring that we can know that they choose to lie, deceive and manipulate that they’re not unintelligent oafs. Nor are they mentally ill. Nothing is wrong with them. They’re just simply abusers. They are men who are okay with lying, cheating, stealing and exploiting people.
Knowing that you can treat your husband like a responsible adult, because he is one, even if he’s trying hard to convince you otherwise. Thinking that he needs therapy will trap you, because he doesn’t need therapy. He knows exactly what to do. He just wants you to believe he doesn’t, and if he gets into therapy, he can use that situation to manipulate you more.
Next Steps If Your Abusive Husband’s Therapist Is Making Things Worse
Anne: So if your abusive husband’s therapist is making things worse for you, I am so sorry. I know that you did this as an act of resistance. Your efforts to get to safety are brave, and you have the right intentions and are on the right track.
Rather than convince him he needs therapy or find a therapist for him, consider enrolling in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The workshop outlines exactly what he is doing, why he’s doing it, so that you can start anticipating the ways he’s going to try to overpower your resistance to his abuse. It teaches women how to get to safety without the risk of being abused by a therapist or abused by their abusive husband’s therapist.
Is My Husband Holding Me Back? How to Know – Sarah’s Story
Jan 30, 2024
Are you wondering, “Is my husband holding me back?” Understanding the signs that your husband may be sabotaging your personal progress is crucial in taking steps toward a healthier, happier life.
Sarah, used the The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to determine exactly what was going on and how to overcome the ways her husband was undermining her. In this episode, Sarah talks about overcoming the ways her husband held through using meditation.
Using Meditation To Overcome What’s Holding You Back
Anne: Sarah recently enrolled in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop and she’s been doing one meditation per week. What meditation are you on now?
Sarah: I just finished the I AM LOVED Meditation.
Writing Can Help Make Us Make Progress
Anne: I wrote these meditations because at a certain point, talking was not helping me as much as meditation or yoga because I talk all the time. I never am not talking about it. If I hit a healing roadblock talking, it wasn’t actually getting the trauma out of my body or helping me that much.
I started doing meditations on YouTube and several different other places. They were never specific to this situation, they weren’t gender specific. They weren’t exactly what I wanted, and so I wrote them. How everything has gone with BTR, it’s been, why not create the thing that doesn’t exist that I need.
Sarah: And is actually so helpful. That and your emotional abuse quiz! It’s the only quiz that actually helped me understand what was happening!
The Benefits Of The Meditation When YOur Husband Is Undermining You
Sarah: I’ve loved them. I have absolutely loved them, I love that you can do them multiple times. They only take about a half hour. I love that they are specific to me. I feel like I’ve done a lot more healing with the betrayal meditations than I have in years of therapy or groups because it’s more individualized.
It’s specific to me, and it’s what I think my pain is, and it allows me to get rid of that and be more open to the future and healing the wounds. I’ve really loved them.
I’m an introvert, very much. If I could go back in time, I would’ve just done BTR from the get go. I think I would’ve just sped up my recovery a lot faster and I would’ve gotten to safety a lot faster if I had done BTR.
Totally. BTR Group Sessions are awesome. It’s safety oriented, it’s the right group to go to if you want group support. It’s also really good to hear other women share their experiences.
There are some women who love BTR Group Sessions and they want to do it in perpetuity, and I think that’s awesome. For me, there was a certain point where talking wasn’t going to help me anymore.
My Husband’s Betrayal Is Holding Me Back
Do you feel like you were kind of in that boat where when you’re thinking I still need to heal after betrayal and this seems like a better choice for me than therapy. Can you talk about how you thought about the difference between meditation and maybe another option?
Sarah: With group, I think it was good. I was just drowning, I had no idea what I was doing, so I needed tools to figure out how to survive, how to do life, and how to move forward.
Now that I’ve had some time, it’s been five years since my divorce and I have a lot more safety now, thanks to you. I mean, I still feel like I have a little bit of a wounded heart. It was a lot of pain and it’s a lot to go through and when you’re in the thick of it, my husbands betrayal was holding me back. For me personally, I was just ignoring the pain because I just have to survive.
Now that I’m safe, I can address the pain and everything like that, but it’s a lot to go through. Before I found BTR, I was doing other therapy and groups that weren’t as helpful.
Stopping My Ex-Husband From Holding Me Back
Once I found BTR, it streamlined my healing and it went a lot faster with the meditations. I saw it and I was like, oh, I got to do this, I got to try it. Once I did the first one and I was just bawling because I just felt so seen by my maker as a whole person. I just felt like I’m valuable.
Even after all this bad stuff has happened, I’m worth it. It’s been really healing. You can wade through the family dysfunction and generational dysfunction and identify for me personally, what I want to do for the future. I want to help my children and to help stop carrying on all of this weight and heaviness and pain.
Anne: You’ve listened to my podcast for years and you’re very familiar with my voice.
Sarah: Yes.
Anne: I’m just thinking I’ve never asked this question before. After listening to my podcast for so long and hearing my voice so much, was it a natural extension to have me also be doing the meditation or was that weird?
Sarah: No, I think it was great because I already felt like I knew you so well. You’re like an old friend. An old friend is just walking me through this path releasing me from my husband holding me back. It was great. I loved it, I found it more comforting rather than some stranger. I know your voice.
Anne: Can we talk a little bit about your story? It’s been five years since your divorce, before you knew that your husband was using exploitative material and having affairs and lying and stuff. What did you think was going on back then?
Betrayed: My Husband’s Addiction Was Holding Me Back From Peace
Sarah: Knew there was exploitative material. I just didn’t know the extent of it. He kept that hidden really, really well. I thought, he must be in it again and that’s his thing. I’m going to do my life and we’ll just carry on.
Then things progressively got worse and worse and worse. There were several instances where I knew something more was happening, so I actually prayed. I prayed, Heavenly Father, I know something is happening. I just don’t know for sure. Help me find out.
That’s when I found out lots of bad things. He had a whole other email account and was meeting up with other women. I found out 2016, I stayed with him for almost a year and a half because he said he wanted to change. Then he just couldn’t be honest. He was truly holding me back from having peace.
https://youtu.be/I9IwWhENrKU
During that time, he started programs and I started therapy. We even did a couple of marriage therapy things, which was pointless, so unhelpful. I just kept finding things. He was not willing to be honest. We separated in April and I spent the night at a good friend’s house and she helped me find BTR.
She held my hand through the whole thing. Honestly, BTR has been my lifeline again. It’s the fastest healing, fastest way to safety also dealing with him after divorce because we have children together. I did The Betrayal Trauma Workshop and was a night and day difference. It reduced my stress, reduced my anxiety.
Everything is much smoother now because I know how to communicate, but still stand my ground and still get what I need.
My Ex-Husband Is Still Holding Me Back After Divorce
Anne: The Betrayal Trauma RecoveryWorkshop makes it very clear that communication is a trap. All the things you’ve been told by the therapist or clergy or other people that you need to improve your communication in order to work things out is just not the case.
It seems ironic, you can throw all that therapy and all this stuff out the window. Communication’s not going to solve it. There are some communication strategies that will help you, but they’re still not solution based in terms of thinking that he’s going to be able to work with you.
Am I making sense? It’s like recognizing, communication isn’t going to help. Then if communication is not going to help, then what do? I do if I have to message back and I know communication isn’t the thing to do, then what?
You can’t just write back nonsense words! If you share kids, you have to communicate. It’s an interesting irony that I’m both saying. Communication isn’t going to solve anything, and also there are these specific communication strategies that will improve things simultaneously.
Sarah: I guess it’s learning what communication strategies actually work.
Anne: Because it’s strategic. You’ve learned to be more strategic?
Sarah: Yes. He has definitely played a game for years and years and years and was really good at it. I’m in that same game, so I have to learn the rules. If I want to make a move to go a certain direction, I have to play the game.
Strategic Communication Can Help You Move Forward
Anne: It’s kind of like render into Caesar, what a Caesar’s or don’t cast your pearls before swine or agree with an adversary quickly. Turn the other cheek kind of things, and that’s where I got those strategies from studying that.
What does this actually mean? Christ was saying that in relation to your enemy, so how does this actually deescalate the situation and help you be safe?
Sarah: Yes, yes. It’s strategic.
Anne: You can see what they’re doing and then you have specific tools to be able to be on his level. Because otherwise when we’re just straight up with them, they just weaponize everything against us.
Sarah: For me, I think the biggest thing that I learned from The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop is to identify what he’s actually doing. Previously I was getting a whirlwind of messages and I never know what’s happening. But now I know what it’s, and it’s easier for me to deal with it. Strategically.
Self-Discovery As A Path Forward
Anne: Knowing you a little bit, I know that you’re extremely logical. I’m going to describe you as stoic. Tell me if I’m wrong. I can imagine that if you’re in therapy or something and they say, how do you feel? You would be like, well, it’s difficult.
Sarah: Yes.
Anne: Yes. Not that you haven’t cried, I’m sure you’ve cried, but you have more of a practical approach to life and your emotions. Regarding The Betrayal Trauma Workshop, has that been a different way to access parts of yourself that you haven’t been able to access in a different way?
Sarah: Yes, I’m just right. That one for me was especially healing because you imagine your 6-year-old self and what she’s going through. The pure joy and pure love of a 6-year-old and accessing that 6-year-old and holding her, and that to me was really healing.
The very first one, I am resolute. That’s the one that was the most healing for me. I don’t even know if I have the words for it. I was bawling. It was just so healing to be heard and seen. I don’t know how else to describe it.
Anne: I think one of the reasons the first one sticks with people isn’t necessarily that it’s better than the other ones. It’s the first time that anyone does it. The meditations are set up so that the beginning goes through the same process every time for all 13 of them.
He Was Holding Me Back: Expressing The Emotional Impact Of Betrayal
Then there’s a visualization that is topic specific. I did that at the beginning of every single one. The words are a little bit different, processing something else. Even though you’re going through the same process, it’s getting to the heart of that topic or that characteristic that you want to feel.
You want to feel resolute or you want to feel protected. It’s a powerful experience of things actually leaving your body that you didn’t know were stuck inside of you.
Then when you do it again the second time, you get another layer of pain out. I don’t know if it’s ever as intense as the first time because it’s just so different from anything else you’ve experienced. What are your thoughts on that?
Sarah: I do like that they follow the same format because I know what to expect. The workbook was helpful to identify certain areas of my body that I was feeling certain things. Then refer back to the workbook after the meditation is almost finished.
Sometimes Repetition Helps Heal
That’s helpful to see, I might need to do this one again. Or, I’m feeling good on this one. At first, I didn’t know they all followed the same format, I was like, okay, Anne, what you doing now? That they all follow the format. There’s a purpose in it, and now I understand the purpose of it.
Anne: My thought was to get all the negative emotions out in the beginning. Get them all out and then fill you up with the positive thing that you wanted to become. Getting rid of the fear, getting rid of the trauma, getting rid of the insecurities, and also just the scripting from society. The places that says that you’re not good enough or that you’re not loved.
Then the second part, which is that topic specific visualization is about that thing. It’s about the truth that you’re going for or to feel protection or to feel like you are just right. I like the just right one. At first I was going to do I am enough, but my problem has never been feeling like I wasn’t enough.
My problem has been that I am too much. Instead of being like, you’re not good enough. It was always like, you are too much, calm down. There’s an element of you’re not good enough in that being too much.
Finding A Healing Structure That Works
That’s why I wanted to be just right in between being too much and not enough is just right. No matter what you’re like, you’re already just right. You are the person that you were supposed to be. It feels like that with your 6-year-old self because she’s so cute. She’s so messy and energetic and, adorable.
Anne: Yeah, I mean, she’s a little bit too much and she’s a little bit not enough at the same time, and it makes her just right. She’s just delightful. The voiceover was actually done by my daughter, which if you hear it, you’ll hear her. She was very excited to be a part of it.
Sarah: I like the format because I really do feel like you get rid of the pain. You get rid of the trauma, and then you build me up so much and I can go conquer the world.
Anne: You’ve been able to do some amazing things, things you never thought that you’d be able to do. You remodeled your kitchen, that is huge. You broke down a wall. You’ve done just some incredible things in terms of BTR empowering you to do things that you never thought you’d be able to do.
Meditation Can Help Me Move Forward When He’s Been Holding Me Back
Can you talk about how BTR and either the podcast or the meditation helped you accomplish some things that you never thought possible?
Sarah: Honestly, it comes down to being married for 13 years to an abusive man. It was always, oh, we got to do what’s best for the family and whatever. My desires or needs were always put underneath everyone else’s, mostly his. He was always holding me back.
Then I got divorced and listened to the podcast I realized I can do whatever I want. It doesn’t matter what that is. It’s whatever I want to do. That’s what I’m going to do. I think I always had the desire. I just didn’t know how to do the things I wanted to do.
Anne: Do you think also you had that scripting in your head that you couldn’t?
Sarah: For sure. I had wanted to remodel my kitchen for years and years when I was married. But we never had the money. Well, guess what, even after a divorce, I really didn’t have the money either, but I figured out how to get the money.
Achieving Personal Goals To Overcome What’s Been Holding Me Back
Whereas if I was still married to him, I guarantee it would’ve been shut down. No, we don’t have the money for this. It’s never going to happen. It was definitely a script, a cultural script, spiritual script, I have to listen to him and do what he wants.
BTR definitely helped me realize my desires and my wants, and then I just had to figure out how to do it. I have on my wall, my miracle board, I have pictures on there that I want to achieve.I have switched them out because I have actually done them.
I’ve gone to Hawaii, I’ve gone to Disneyland, I’ve redone my kitchen. I am currently redoing my yard. These are things that I wanted to do for so long and I just didn’t know how to do them. First, realizing that I can do them, I just have to figure out how to do it. I can do it if I want. I just have to figure it out. That was the biggest hurdle for me.
Anne: I want to let people know. You’re not like Miss Moneybags or anything. You’re a high school teacher.
Sarah: I do not have thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars rolling in every month. It does not happen.
Taking Initiative To Make Progress
Anne: One of the things that impressed me is your belief in yourself that you could do it because there were parts of that kitchen remodel that you did yourself.
Sarah: It was Father’s Day, and I didn’t have my kids, and I was like, I hate this wood paneling. I hate it, I just channeled Anne. I was like, what would Anne do? I’m like, change it. So I ripped it off. I ripped all the paneling off in one day downstairs in the basement, and then I had the studs showing and I’m like, oh, no, I’ve just created this huge mess.
What am I going to do? I called my brother-in-Law who has done drywall, and he came with his brother and they knocked it out in two days. Obviously I didn’t pay as much if I had some contractor come in and do it.
Okay, what else do I not like? I don’t like my kitchen. I’m going to redo that. I had to refinance some stuff to get the money to do that. I’m so glad I did because it was done. Then I had breast cancer, and I want to show my daughters that if you want something, you figure out a way to do it.
The Joy Of Achieving: How Confidence Aids Healing
Anne: I was telling somebody the other day, I get what I want in general. I mean, sometimes I don’t clearly, but it’s easy for me to obey the commandments or to do the right thing, so to speak. Because I want to do it. There’s this instance where the thing I really wanted to do was the wrong thing, and that hasn’t happened to me in a really long time.
I went over to this couple who mentored me in my neighborhood, and I was like, I know this is the wrong thing, but I still really want to do it. I hadn’t done just saying it out loud and getting their help, and they prayed with me. It was so helpful being able to be like, okay, I really don’t want to do that thing. That would not be good for me.
Just voicing it so that I could have God remove it from my heart was nice, but just in general, it’s nice to know that the things that we want are good. Why can’t we do it? Going to Disneyland is not a bad thing. It’s awesome. Why would someone not want to go or fix your yard or your kitchen? How does it feel to be in your house now?
Sarah: I love it. I didn’t love it before. It’s a great house. It’s a great neighborhood. I’ve definitely made it my own. Nothing’s exactly perfect, but it’s so much better. I’m a big baker. I love to bake and I can knock a lot of stuff out of my kitchen really easily.
Gaining Energy & Momentum To Heal
Do you want to know what I’ve made in the last 24 hours? I’ve made a lot, I’ve made sourdough bread. I’ve made an almond cake. I made lemon bars. I made lemon blueberry scones.
My neighbors love me because there’s no way I can eat all of that. I love my kitchen. I have a huge island now and I can work and I have a double oven. It’s what I need now. I don’t know if it’s necessarily, I need, but it’s so much easier than my previous kitchen.
My previous kitchen was from the 1960s and I’d clean it and it still looked dirty. What’s the point of cleaning if it’s still dirty now I clean it and you can see a difference, and so I keep a clean kitchen more because I can see the difference.
Anne: You feel like with these miracles or cleaning out the trauma from inside of you, I was able to accomplish my goal. I was able to get what I wanted. It feels really good, and it kind of compounds. Then you just believe in yourself more and more, and you just have more and more confidence.
Sarah: You definitely have more confidence because you’ve done it. You already know you’ve done it. I feel like it’s the Harry Potter moment when he conjured the patronus. Do you know what I’m talking about?
Conquering What’s Holding Me Back – The Power Of Healing In Achieving Goals
Sarah: I already did it, so I knew I could do it. I knew it was me, so I just did it. So that’s how I felt. I can do things. It’s also healing. The trauma and all of the pain gives me the energy to do it and the creative drive to do what I want to do. When you’re just in the drudges of everything. If you don’t heal after betrayal, if you don’t take the time to address it.
Sarah: Healing the trauma and all of the pain gives me the energy to do it and the creative drive to do what I want to do.
Anne: Well, and I think that’s the thing that so many women describe, especially before they know what’s going on, is they describe feeling stuck in a healthy relationship. I don’t really know because I’ve never been married to a healthy man, but I assume it’s that you have these goals and that you progress toward them and you’re able to accomplish them and it feels good.
Together in this partnership, you’re making progress throughout your life and you’ve got ups and downs, but together you’re on the same path. When you’re with a user, someone who’s emotionally and psychologically abusing you, you’re a victim of coercion. You feel stuck all the time.
Emotional Abusers Holding Victims Back
You can’t make the progress that you wanted to. I know that you bought that house with your ex and then you got it in the divorce. Even with that house, there was stuff that you wanted to do and you couldn’t figure out how to do it. It kind of just feels like they’re this big anchor that’s chained to us and we’re just getting dragged backward instead of being able to progress forward.
It’s not a partnership. It’s sort of a counter-ship where you’re making progress and they’re kind of holding me back.
Sarah : Yeah, because everything’s about them. It’s not about us, it’s not about our relationship and our goals. It’s his goals, his desires, his wants, so there is no progression really for me. He’s constantly holding me back.
Anne: They’re not going to care that much about whether or not the kitchen’s clean if they’re just looking at it all the time. If they’re never home to be in the kitchen. Have you noticed since starting the meditations that things have changed? Were surprised because the meditations are a relatively low amount of effort.
The Surprises Of Starting Meditations
You just listen and then go about your day. Have you noticed any changes that have surprised you? Like things in real life that you did differently that you were not expecting?
Sarah: My thought process is different. I’m more gentle with myself. The thing that’s coming up in my mind is the just right meditation with the 6-year-old. I’s okay if I made a mistake, that’s okay. I got to it, but guess what? That’s okay. I got to figure out how to fix it and then not do it again rather than beating myself up.
I should have done better. Changing my thought process of it’s okay, it’s all right. I can make mistakes. I’m going to do this differently next time so that I don’t make the same mistake. I don’t get as hard on myself as I used to. There’s still things that I want to change about my life as everyone does. It’s more of a gradual progression rather than a steep incline.
Anne: It’s also seems to be more gentle process when you hear someone say, don’t think bad thoughts about yourself, and then you’re like, okay, I’m not going to, and then you think something and then you’re like, I’m thinking that again. Oh, stop thinking that.
It’s not necessarily violent, but it’s like you’re confronting yourself this way. You just naturally change your thoughts in sort of a gentle way, and even if you had a thought like, oh, I’m so dumb.
What’s Really Holding Me Back? Changing Thought Processes
Then you think, oh, sweetie, you’re so cute. Instead of being like, oh, I wasn’t supposed to tell myself I was dumb. I’m so dumb for calling myself dumb.
Then you go through that process. The other thing that I tried to purposefully build into that specific meditation was just mistakes. She knocks something over and makes a mess. Mistakes that we make that we’re like, oh, I don’t want to do that again. I’m going to make a different choice.
Then there’s also just mistakes that you can’t avoid. There’s just stuff that happens that nothing that you did could have avoided it. I think there’s this feeling that I need to learn all of these things so that I can avoid doing this in the future. I hope the meditation helps people feel like there’s also stuff that is going to happen and it’s okay, and I couldn’t avoid it, and that’s fine too.
Sarah: I definitely agree. Sometimes life happens and you can’t really avoid it. You give the strength to to keep moving forward
Anne: And being gentle with yourself as you’re like, ah, that happens. Today I got a full glass of milk and for some reason I set it on the floor. I don’t know why I did this, and then I stood up because I was on the couch, which I could have just put it on the table next to the couch. That would’ve been a good idea, but no, I didn’t I stuck it on the floor and I stood up and of course knocked the whole thing over.
My Abusers Lack Of Grace for Mistakes Is Holding Me Back
I think the hard thing about that is there’s no grace for mistakes. With an abuser, you accidentally forget to deposit the check on time and a bill bounces or something. Instead of being like, oh, it’s okay, you intended to deposit it, how can I help?
I remember I did that once and I’m actually really good with finances and stuff. I’m very responsible, and that happened this one time and he was so angry. Then said things like, do I need to take over now? So now I have to do everything?
It was just a mistake. I forgot to deposit the check and I thought I had, this isn’t something that I do every day, the way they talk and stuff, there’s just no grace.
Sarah: My abuser wouldn’t give me a lot of grace, but it required a lot of grace on his part. He’d asked for a lot of grace. It’s ironic,
Anne: And we give it,
Sarah: Yeah, totally give you a lots of chances,
Anne: But not so much to ourselves. No.
Anne: What did you think before you used the workbook? Were you kind of like, wait a minute, I’m supposed to fill something out during a meditation? Did you think it was a little bit weird or were you like, cool, I’m all for it? Can you talk about your thought process with the workbook?
Expressing Trauma On Paper
Sarah: The workbook is really helpful because it gets things out of your head and onto paper and you have to see what is really there, what is the pain or what is the trauma saying? What are the words that need to come out, and sometimes they’re vile, they’re evil.
I’ve had an array of responses and it’s interesting for me to see it on paper like, oh, I really have harbored a lot of pain. Getting it out on paper gives it a voice and it’s easier to get rid of once you see it on paper. I am a big journal writer. Even when I first found out everything that he did, I was like, I got to get this out of my head.
Otherwise I’m going to go crazy. and so I wrote in my journal a lot. For me, it’s very helpful to have things on paper. It gets out of my head and I can see it. That’s holding me back. It’s a coping mechanism. I think the workbook is really helpful, seeing where it is in my body and what it’s saying, what it looks like.
Anne: Has it been hard for you to just go with whatever came in your mind?
Sarah: At first, it was. At first I was like, okay, this is weird
Anne: For people, if they’ve never done the meditation before, do you have any tips for how to just sort of let go
Sarah: Do it a couple of times, do the same meditation a couple of times. Don’t be judgmental. Just let it happen. Don’t overthink it. Just let it come out the pen or the pencil.
Visualizing Physical Representations Of Feelings To Let Go Of What’s Holding Me Back
Anne : I encourage people literally, whatever you think, put it in there. It could be the craziest thing, like a giant hourglass full of marbles that is sitting in your living room. Whatever you think of, just go with it. If it doesn’t work out, it’s okay. Just do it over again in a minute. There’s no wrong answers. What’s the weirdest thing that it looked like? Like a blob or a color.
Sarah: Green, slimy, sticky gooey blob, and I don’t know if that’s the weirdest, “That’s holding me back?”
Anne: Is that the most common thing for you or is that just one time?
Sarah: I have had some sharp shards of glass, but mostly it’s sticky, goopy, slimy
Anne: Stuff. Mine’s usually black goop like tar. One time I had this chunk of cement come out that was the exact replica of the shape and size of my body. I was floating in the air and it just fell out, hit the ground, and when it hit, it shattered into a bunch of pieces.
The light came and just cleaned it up. That was weird. It was like my entire body was full of cement, that’s holding me back. I think that’s super interesting.
Also, when I do the light part, I go into this mode where I picture sort of a subatomic physics sort of idea. Where all of my atoms separate from each other and there’s space in between all of my atoms, and then I kind of picture them shaking or vibrating. Then they open up a little bit and anything unhealthy just comes out of them and gets pulled in, and I always love that part.
Health Benefits Of Meditation & Emotional Release
I feel so much better afterwards. I just feel like it healed my body too. How do you feel about the meditations in relation to your health?
Sarah: I wish you had done this years ago. I feel lighter. I’ve read,The Body Keeps the Score, and you can’t separate areas of your life. You are a whole person and everything blends into every other part of your life. It makes sense.
If you’re in a relationship that’s abusive, it tears down your body physically. It just does. You can’t separate the stress from different areas. The trauma keeps holding me back. It just doesn’t work. Releasing the trauma and the pain and the memories has been helpful. I feel better physically than I did years ago.
Anne: When you get to, I am healing the healing meditation that has a whole section about physical healing, healing your physical ailments. I’m thinking, “What’s holding me back?” You’re in this sort of mausoleum kind of place and this lady comes and you lay down on this stone that can heal your body.
You’re a woman of faith, you’re a Christian. For any women who are kind of nervous. That makes me nervous. It’s going to let something that I am not sure into my life. Can you talk about that you’re a Christian and how you felt about meditation in light of your faith?
Meditation & Christian Faith: Aligning Spiritual Practices
Sarah: I visualize it as accessing the atonement. That’s how I see it. For me, the meditations help me access the atonement better. I believe Christ can heal all things. The meditation is a visual way to see that atonement, to see Christ healing me.
Anne: In terms of your faith, has everything been safe for you? Has everything felt safe? Has there been anything that felt uncomfortable that didn’t really mesh with your values?
Sarah: Well, the meditations have aligned with my values, my religion. People say it’s prayer and meditation. They kind of go together, so it’s just a different way of doing meditation. To me, it’s more effective to do meditation rather than prayer. Now, I’m not saying prayers are bad for this specific situation.
I think these meditations are very helpful. There’s a purpose behind them, whereas my prayers are my wants and desires or gratitude or whatever my prayers are. They’re helpful as well. I’m not saying one or the other. I don’t feel uncomfortable doing the meditations even though I’m a religious person, that wasn’t holding me back.
Ensuring Meditation Aligns With Personal Values
Anne : I am too. I was hoping that Christians would, if they wanted to, envision that light as Christ. So many women have had spiritual abuse be a part of their story, and many women have decided that religion isn’t for them. Because they’ve had so much spiritual abuse.
I support a woman getting to safety however she needs to get to safety. I wanted it to be very just open to interpretation. And make sure that all of the visualizations aligned with, I would say general Christian principles or the general principles of being a good person.
So that everyone would feel comfortable. Hopefully there isn’t any part of it that makes someone feel uncomfortable.
I can’t anticipate everyone’s experience and everyone’s situation, but for the most part, I tried to try to make sure that it was vague enough and general enough. Then also alternatively specific enough, in the I Am Brave meditation, it is interesting because you actually confront the abuser.
Do you remember that one? Yes. In a safe place, and that one might make people a little bit nervous, but he’s contained so that you’re safe. How did you feel about that one?
Sarah: Wow. The things I wanted to say to him and to actually hear. I think there’s always things that we want to say and to actually be heard. We could say it all we want, but that’s not going to affect him at all. In this way it did. I felt validated for my feelings and for the way that he treated me. It was freeing.
Is He Still Holding Me Back? Visualizing Confronting Emotional Abuse Safely
Anne: He doesn’t change his behavior due to that, but he’s sort of forced to listen to you. For women who maybe nervous about meditation and don’t know if it’s for them what would you tell them?
Sarah: Give it a chance. What’s holding me back? Maybe if this is your first time doing a meditation, do the first one just a couple of times. Be curious rather than shut it down right away. I have actually told the women that I know that I’ve been in abusive situations about the workshop and how helpful it has been for me.
I tell lots of women because this has helped my healing a lot, just give it a chance.
Anne: Which is awesome for you because there’s so not woo woo. Your room isn’t full of crystals and you’re not burning incense all over the place. You’re a high school teacher. Straightforward.
Sarah: I tell it like it is. Sometimes my bluntness gets people offended.
Anne: My mom, she is really cute. She was hesitant to try the meditations, she was like “What’s holding me back?” I’ll have to have her come on to talk about it. She took it and she was just crying the whole time, which is not like my mom at all. She called me and was like, oh my word. I didn’t know, it was so good. I was just crying and crying, and a lot of people have said that. It’s just like, let so much pain out, crying in a good way.
Has The Fear of Meditation Been Holding Me Back?
Sarah: It’s a healing crying. It’s not a distressed crying.
Anne: The fact that my mom liked it, she’s not woo-woo either. I hope that there’s something for everyone no matter what their personality is, no matter what their experience. t was everything that I wanted, and then I was just trying to be mindful of maybe what everyone else would like.
Anne: I think everything at BTR is because I needed it, I had to figure out, “What’s holding me back?” The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, it’s because I needed a strategy. I tried everything that everybody else said and it didn’t work. No matter what I did, I could not figure out how to get myself out of his emotional and psychological abuse.
Even if you said it was abuse, there wasn’t anyone who was like, okay, now we know this. The Betrayal Trauma Workshop is for women who don’t know what to do. It’s very practical. Let’s all let go of what’s holding me back.
Let Go Of What’s Holding Me Back
It’s cool to have all of those resources that I wish I had, but everything was based on all of the obstacles that we face, legal obstacles, obstacles with clergy, just one right after another. It seems like they never end, but I feel like now I’ve written my book, which will be coming out soon. It’s like all of the stuff that I learned right now, I just want to apply it and talk about it all the time.
Now that it’s all built, because the good part is knowing that it works and seeing how it helps people.
Anne: I’m so glad. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for taking the time to talk today.
Sarah: There’s just such a need, so many of us. I think you’re going to help a lot of women. You’ve already helped me.
Sarah: Yeah, my pleasure. Just keep going. One foot in front of the other. You’re doing great work for all the other women out there. Keep going. Try the workshop. It’s very helpful.
How Do I Set Boundaries In My Marriage? Strategies That Work
Jan 23, 2024
How do I set boundaries in my marriage when my husband is unfaithful?How do I set boundaries with my ex as we attempt to coparent our children?Is it even possible to set boundaries when my boyfriend emotionally abuses me?
Your specific situation requires boundaries, but how do you set boundaries when everything feels confusing and intimidating? Anne shares one of the effective emotional safety strategies from The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop.
“Ask yourself, ‘What is making me feel unsafe? What action can I take right now – today – to put proximity between myself and the harm?”
Anne Blythe, Founder Of BTR.ORG
How Do I Set Boundaries When Every Time I Try Things Just Get Worse?!
Many women in the BTR community tried for years to set boundaries, only to experience further harm and discouragement.
Unfortunately, these forms of communication don’t protect victims of emotional and psychological abuse. Instead, they often expose victims to further gaslighting, manipulation, and humiliation.
3 Steps to Establishing Effective Safety Boundaries
You’ll know that your boundaries are effective when you’re experiencing greater emotional and psychological safety. So how do you set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship?
Identify The Cause Of The Harm
The first step in establishing effective safety boundaries is identifying the cause of the harm:
Do I feel emotionally safe in my home?
What in particular is causing me to feel emotionally unsafe?
When do I feel the least emotionally safe? When do I feel the most emotionally safe?
Ask Yourself This Question:
After you’ve identified the cause of the harm, ask yourself: What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm?
As Anne shares in this episode, for some women, this means simply closing a door, blocking a phone number, or putting in headphones. For others, it may mean separation, divorce, or reporting a crime.
Transcript: How Do I Set Boundaries In My Marriage? What You Need To Know
Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about boundaries, because so many women are confused about how to set boundaries to be emotionally and psychologically safe. The reason so many women are confused about boundaries is because therapists and other “experts” teach women to set boundaries in a way that does not make sense.
They basically say a boundary is stating what you will and won’t accept. And then they’ll victim blame you, and say, “If you haven’t told someone what you will and won’t accept, then it’s your fault.” Even though you already did tell him.
So then, because the therapist tells you to, you say the thing you’ve already said. “I will not accept pornography in my home,” or “I will not be lied to,” or “I will not accept your continual emotional abuse.”
And the therapist pats you on the back and says, “Good job.” You set a “boundary.” Because the therapist thinks, apparently once you say that, it’s supposed to solve some problems. Then, just to ensure it solves the problems, the therapist will encourage you to add a threat to it. So then, because the therapist is giving her these instructions, a woman will say, “if you use pornography again, then I won’t be intimate with you.”
And that’s how they’ll teach you to “set boundaries.” And if that model works for you, shine on, keep using it. But most of our listeners and pretty much all the women who get services here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are struggling. Because the way the therapist taught them to set boundaries isn’t working. and they’re wondering, what am I supposed to do? So many victims think they are the problem, because they can’t set boundaries.
Introducing The Living Free StrategIES
Anne: And I’m like, no, no, no. It’s not you. The way they taught you to set boundaries doesn’t work. So, if you relate, I’m going to teach you the Living Free strategy for how to set boundaries that makes a lot more sense. In the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, I explain in super duper detail how to do this.
And today I’m just going to cover a few basics. So if you’re like, “Oh, this is good. I need more of this” enroll in the Living Free Workshop, where I teach these effective boundaries in a detailed and strategic way. Including examples for how to set effective thought boundaries, action boundaries and communication boundaries.
There are so many options. So the examples I share today are just a few of the tons of options you have when it comes to setting effective boundaries. And I outline more examples in the workshop. I’m going to use many metaphors throughout this whole episode to illustrate these points.
Metaphor: Property Line & Trespassing
Anne: Here’s a metaphor about how a woman would determine how to set boundaries and whether a boundary is effective. You know where your property line is. And your neighbor keeps coming onto your private property without your permission. So you build a fence. But he climbs over the fence.
So then you write him a letter and you say, “Please stop climbing over my fence. Don’t enter my property without my permission.” But he keeps doing it. So then you set up a camera, and the camera records him climbing over the fence. And you write another letter and you say, I have evidence that you’re climbing over the fence. Please stop. But he doesn’t. So then you call the police and show them the footage.
And they arrest him for trespassing. He makes bail. And that could be the end of it. But he has a good defense attorney, and not even the court system can make him stop. So then you evolve your boundaries more to keep trying to protect yourself from this person. But this guy just won’t stop. And you have had it, and you are ready to completely be done with this chaos in your life.
So you decide to move to an apartment with a doorman, that doesn’t have a yard. You show the doorman a picture of what he looks like. You’ll never have to worry, because he won’t get into the building. Because he won’t get past the doorman. That’s how you can know if your boundary is effective. Has your boundary actually separated you from the harm?
How Do I Set Boundaries: Emotional & Psychological Abuse
Then along with that list, next to those so-called boundaries, write a threat of what you’re going to do if he does it again. Let’s first talk about that list. It’s okay to list things that he does that make you feel unsafe. But it’s not strategic to give it to him. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop gives a detailed explanation with a bunch of reasons why it’s not recommended to give this list to anyone. Not even your husband, not even your abusive husband’s therapist.
Although you can share it. Or create it with one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches, because she’s never going to talk to him.
The Importance Of Emotional & Psychological Safety
Anne: Having a safe person who was 100% on your side is so important. Because many women, when they come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, haven’t even thought about their emotional and psychological safety. Which is an important step for sure. The Living Free Workshop will take you through that step-by-step. But that list in itself doesn’t create safety.
The whole point is to be emotionally, psychologically, and physically safe, because emotional and psychological abuse feels like a punch to the gut. So how do I set effective boundaries? So think of it this way. There’s a man with a metaphorical club, and he’s hitting you on the head with this club. And you tell him to stop. He doesn’t stop. Then you tell him again, and he doesn’t.
Ask any abuse victim, does his emotional and psychological abuse affect you physically? And they’re like, absolutely. I couldn’t get out of bed. I was so sick to my stomach and couldn’t eat. And I was so stressed that I got migraines. For most women, if they tell their emotionally abusive husband, stop making fun of me. Sometimes he’ll stop doing that thing.
But we find that he’ll just do another emotionally abusive thing, something else. He’s like, “Okay, I couldn’t get through that way. I’ll try it a different way.”
And then you’re just in the same situation where you’re constantly telling him, “Hey, be a basic, decent human being.” And he keeps finding ways to not meet the lowest bar.
How Do I Set Boundaries: Mental & Physical Actions for Safety
Once you understand the safety issues, you can work from there to determine what actions you’re going to take. They can be mental actions. They can be physical actions. A boundary is something that keeps his abuse at a distance. So he can’t exploit you, oppress you or cause chaos in your life, even though he continues to try. There are many levels of effective boundaries. I detail a lot in the Living Free Workshop. It gives specific directions for, how do I set boundaries?
But for this episode, let’s take the classic example of blocking someone on your phone. Many women are triggered by text alerts or phone calls. It’s common for a woman who resists abuse and attempts to maintain her dignity. To respond to an abusive text by texting back. I’m not going to talk to you. Please stop texting me. Which still leaves the door open for him to write back and abuse you more.
Instead, if you block their number, they can’t call or text you, and you don’t even know that they called or texted. There’s nothing they can do about it. Nothing says I’m not going to talk to you, like blocking them on your phone. And since we’re going for safety, not responding and blocking is the most effective strategy. If you have kids and have to communicate with him, that’s what the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is for.
Understanding Different Levels Of Boundaries
Anne: If all this seems extreme, if you’re like, whoa. The Living Free Workshop covers different levels of effective boundaries. The Living Free Workshop covers mental boundaries to keep your thoughts and emotions safe from his emotional and psychological abuse.
So if you’re interested in different types of effective boundaries, the Living Free Workshop will take you through how to identify the harm. And then how to determine how do I set boundaries and which boundary will be effective for me in my situation.
We want to get you to safety as quickly as possible. So that you can observe from an emotionally safe distance, from a psychologically safe distance. And see what type of character he really has. Because the way the therapists and so-called experts tell you to do it, I think is completely backwards. You don’t have to tell them, “If you use pornography, I won’t be intimate with you.” Because he already did it. He’s currently too unsafe to be with right now.
And for your own safety, you don’t need to tell him why you don’t want to be with him. You don’t have to tell him that you feel unsafe. You don’t have to decide beforehand what you’ll do.
Functioning, responsible, mature adults don’t need to be told, “If you lie to me, I feel unsafe. And so I’m going to set a boundary.” Mature adults don’t need that. A functioning adult and mature person would know that when you lie to someone, they’re going to get hurt. Effective boundaries are what you need to feel safe. They’re not what he needs.
Boundaries Help You To Be Safe
Anne: So if you know what you need to feel emotionally and psychologically safe. You can move towards safety now without babysitting an adult man. Without communicating with an emotional abuser who’s going to weaponize your emotions against you.
Women feel empowered when they realize they can take action and create a barrier. When they know how do I set boundaries. Whether emotional, mental, or physical, keep themselves away from the harm. Whether he understands what you’re doing. You don’t have to tell him why you’re doing it and you don’t have to explain it, nothing. You can just make your way to safety.
Again, the The Living Free Workshop has practical detailed instructions, including a workbook to process your thoughts and feelings. So to help you understand these principles about effective boundaries on a deeper level, here’s a metaphor for you.
Metaphor: How Would You Keep Yourself Safe If Someone Had Ebola?
Anne: Let’s say your husband has late stage Ebola. He has blood dripping out of his eyes. He’s coughing up blood. And because you’re resisting Ebola, right? This seems dangerous. You’re like, we need help. Let’s go to couple therapy. So you both get into the car and drive to couple therapy. And the therapist says to you, “Make a list of all the diseases you don’t want to get. Because you can’t expect him to not give you a disease. Unless you’ve communicated that with him.”
In the meantime, the therapist is handing your husband Kleenex after Kleenex, so the blood doesn’t drip down your husband’s face and onto the therapist’s couch. And so you write. “I don’t want to get Ebola. I don’t want to get an STD.” You write all the diseases you don’t want to get.
Then your therapist says to your husband, “Okay. She doesn’t want Ebola.” As if he didn’t know this before, a functioning adult man should know that no one wants to get Ebola. Apparently, the therapist thinks he’s a total imbecile. Which he’s not, he knows people don’t want to get Ebola. But he’s manipulating the therapist, and the therapist somehow falls for it, as if Chuck has never heard anywhere that people don’t want to get Ebola.
The therapist says, okay. She doesn’t want Ebola. So next time you get Ebola, she’s going to, and the therapist pauses and looks at you, like, “What are you going to do?” You think about it and you say, “Oh, okay, if you get Ebola again, I’m not going to have sleep with you.”
Continuing With Ebola Metaphor
Anne: The therapist nods and says, “Okay, this will take time to heal from Ebola. But it’s possible. Remember, your husband’s not the enemy. The Ebola is the enemy. I know you can beat this if you love and support each other.” After the therapy appointment, you both get in the car. and drive home. What’s going to happen to you? You’re going to get Ebola. You’ve been in an enclosed space with someone who’s highly contagious.
So an effective boundary would be that you never ever are in an enclosed space with someone with Ebola. You’re not going to even drive them to the hospital, because you would be in the same car with them. It’s just too dangerous. You’re going to immediately distance yourself from someone with late stage Ebola. If they want help healing from Ebola, they can call 911 and get themselves to the hospital.
All you need to do is keep your distance until he’s 100% better, with absolutely no Ebola symptoms whatsoever. And I’m going to keep on with this metaphor. Let’s pretend you can get Ebola through phone calls and texts, and he knows that. So he’s in the hospital, but he’s texting you and calling you and FaceTiming you. And that’s putting you at risk for Ebola. Which again, he knows, but he doesn’t care.
Creating A Protective Barrier That Actually Keeps You Safe
Anne: You might be like, if a text comes through, it will have Ebola germs on it. I need to keep myself safe. I am blocking him on my phone. You don’t need to tell him that your goal is not to get Ebola, because that’s obvious. Normal adults know that if they have Ebola, they need to isolate themselves until they have no symptoms. Since he can emotionally and psychologically abuse you through talking to you, phone calls, texts, and communication.
So, when you think about boundaries, when anybody says you need boundaries, the effective way to set boundaries is to create a protective barrier that actually keeps you safe from the harm. Like a tornado shelter. You don’t have to tell the tornado that you’re getting in the shelter.
You just get in the shelter. Or like a lifeboat in shark infested waters. You don’t have to tell the sharks why you’re getting in the lifeboat. You just get in the lifeboat. All right, enough of the metaphors.
Real-Life Example: When Carol Set Boundaries
Anne: Now let’s talk about actual stories that illustrate this, one woman in our community. I’ll call her Carol. Before she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was resisting his emotional and psychological abuse and his coercion the best way she knew how. She resisted his abuse by “setting a boundary” that her husband needed to go to pornography addiction recovery therapy or she would move out. He found himself a therapist, but her husband seemed like he was getting worse.
Carol again, resisting the abuse, decided to go to one of the appointments so she could explain the true situation to the therapist. When she went, Carol observed that the therapist her husband chose was a young, beautiful woman. Who seemed friendly with her husband. And thought her husband was insightful and mature. She was kind of enamored with him. Carol was super alarmed, so in an effort to resist abuse, she set another “boundary.”
Those boundaries that she set that he needed to go to therapy. And then the second one that he needed a male therapist didn’t do anything to protect her from his abuse. When she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was so traumatized and exhausted.
She enrolled in the Living Free Workshop, and started implementing the effective boundary strategies she learned.
Real-Life Example: When Olivia Set Boundaries
Anne: And started to create distance between herself and his emotional and psychological abuse. So she wasn’t subjected to the harm while she observed to see what he was going to do.
Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Olivia, was going through a divorce. And with every child exchange her soon to be ex was writing crazy messages, changing up the exchange times, just causing absolute chaos. The strategies laid the foundation for her to know what he was trying to do. And then how to combat that with strategic communication.
And then worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach to implement these strategies. She knew how to set boundaries, and was able to set effective boundaries so that his chaos couldn’t touch her anymore. It was amazing.
Real-Life Example: When Elise Set Boundaries
Anne: Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Elise, attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions when she found out her husband had been lying about his recovery from pornography addiction. He had told her that he was sober. But then she found out that he’d been using pornography almost daily since he started 12 step a year earlier. Because she done the workshop, she knew exactly how to set boundaries.
With the help of one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches in Individual Sessions, she processed what had happened, and thought about what actions she could take to actually separate herself from his emotional and psychological abuse without talking to him. In Elise’s case, she decided to gather her kids and her stuff. She got a burner phone, so he couldn’t track her location, and left her phone and went to her mom’s house.
She said, “I was finally able to think straight without manipulation, 24/7.” He called my mom and asked if I was there. I told her to tell him the truth. So she said, “Yeah, she’s here, but she doesn’t feel like talking.” She’ll reach out when she feels better.
Elise was able to escape his psychological and emotional abuse. And this helped her get in touch with her intuition. Elise said, “I’m learning how to trust myself again. It’s a miracle what I can see when I’m not blinded by his manipulation and chaos.”
Let Me Know How You Have Set Boundaries
Anne: We have an awesome illustrated video that gives an example of how to set boundaries that does not involve blocking him on your phone or going to your mom’s house with a burner phone. Because at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we think you can set effective boundaries in any way that feels comfortable to you. So you know, how do I set boundaries.
If you have questions about boundaries, you can ask them at the bottom of the transcription, in the comments, and I’ll respond. You can also comment about your experience. Have you tried to set boundaries the way the therapist or so-called experts recommend? Did it work for you? Alternatively, have you tried implementing the strategy to set effective boundaries I teach in the Living Free Workshop? I’m anxious to hear your thoughts.
Fighting A Narcissist For Custody – Tina’s Story
Jan 16, 2024
Fighting a narcissist for custody is usually a complex, painful, and grueling process that can take years. Tina Swithin joins Anne to educate and empower victims as they fight for their children in and out of court.
#2 Lies, Lies & More Lies In A Custody Battle With A Narcissist
Divorcing a narcissist means dealing with lies and manipulation. It can be frustrating to hear the falsehoods and out of the courtroom. Narcissists lie to judges, attorneys, police officers, colleagues. They’ll even lie to your boss, family, friends, and children.
Understanding why they do this is crucial. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop explains their behavior and offers strategies to protect yourself during a custody battle.
It’s especially hard when a narcissistic abuser lies to the court. Women often find themselves defending against things they haven’t done.
The Narcissist
Most courts don’t take narcissistic abuse seriously. Many women are treated as if they are crazy, lying, or exaggerating. Knowing this can help women plan ahead.
At BTR, we understand the fear that comes with a custody battle against a narcissist. The fear of losing your children can get intense.
Every victim deserves a safe place to ask questions, and connect with others who understand. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily in every time zone.
We’d love to see you in a Group Session TODAY.
FIGHTING A NARCISSIST FOR CUSTODY
Transcript: Fighting A Narcissist For Custody
Anne: Tina Swithin is joining me on today’s episode.I’m so honored that she’s willing to share her story with us.
Tina survived, a category five divorce hurricane, while acting as her own attorney in a high conflict custody battle that turned her family’s life upside down for 10 years. She took shelter from the storm by chronicling her journey in her now internationally recognized blog, One Mom’s Battle, with all odds against her. Tina’s battle ended on August 30th, 2019. When she successfully terminated her ex-husband’s parental rights.
She continues to champion children’s rights through her family court advocacy.
Welcome, Tina.
Tina: Thank you so much for having me. I’m absolutely honored to be here.
Dealing With Hidden Abuse
Anne: Tina. You are impressive. Your story and resources inspired me to believe that I could also be delivered. From the post-separation and financial abuse in divorce that my children and I went through. And we did. And I now teach women’s strategies. I used to get free in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
My listeners are all women experiencing hidden abuse in one form or another. So women who listen to this podcast are generally at the beginning of their journey in recognizing the abuse. For example, they may have found exploitative material on a computer, or suspect their husband is having an affair. Women who listen to this podcast in general have found something about their husband and are trying to grapple with, what do I do now?
Although many women who use services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are already divorced. But talking about women who are not thinking of divorce may be thinking, “Let’s try couple’s therapy, or maybe if I could get him a diagnosis, that would help.”
I’d love your perspective on what they need to prepare for, just in case, even if they’re not sure if they want to get divorced. Sort of like having a savings account, you know, you never want to lose your job, but you have a savings account just in case you do. Can we start there?
Recognizing Narcissistic Abuse
Anne: What do you wish you had known years before you even recognized your husband was a narcissist?
Tina: Absolutely. I relate so much to the foundation of your program. In my situation, it was a infidelity of sorts. When I had my awakening, that something was really off. I found out that we had debt over a million dollars, and he did that behind my back. Still, to this day, with all the information I have. I can’t. grasp that amount of money, how someone can go in debt to that degree. So I had my entire world pulled out from under me.
I ended up on a therapist’s couch, because the gaslighting was so intense, desperate to understand my role. Still trying to take ownership of issues and understand what I could do to fix him.
I still remember I had never heard the term narcissistic personality disorder. My therapist gave me those three words and had me read the description. I was relieved, because I thought, Oh my gosh, if I know what we’re dealing with. If there’s a label, if there’s a diagnosis, even though she couldn’t diagnose him, but she said, I think you’re a victim of narcissistic abuse.
Back then, I was a fixer, so in my mind, I was so excited to have something to work with.
Desire To Fix The Relationship
Anne: Yeah, that desire to resolve it is actually a form of resistance to abuse. Finding out you have a narcissistic husband gave you something to fix. It’s one of the many ways victims try to get to safety. So you were always working towards safety, resisting the abuse. By going to therapy, trying to resolve the problem. Resistance comes in different forms. And as we learn more effective strategies. We can actually start to gain some traction and start making our way to safety.
But yeah, it’s so common to think that like, “Oh, I can go to therapy with him and we can actually resolve this. We can get help.”
Tina: Yeah, I remember going home and telling him, “She said, you’re a narcissist.” We looked it up. Six months later, I understood she was trying to tell me: there is no fixing this. This is either your life or you leave. And it took me a while to grasp that. So I would have had time to plan, but back then, there were no resources for this type of situation. I’m really thankful for the work you’re doing, because it gives people information on how to prepare for something like this.
Fighting A Narcissist For Custody Begins
Tina: I don’t know if you can ever fully be prepared. But things that I wish I would have done differently. I’m getting a full financial picture of our situation. I was in the dark with finances, to the point where I had no idea how much money we had. We lived in a gated community, in a nice home.
If I wanted a car, we got me a new car. And I lived a life where I had no insight. Grocery money is in my checking account. But I am kept in the dark. So when our divorce and child custody battle started. I didn’t know what to put on that paperwork. I truly had no idea where the money was, what was happening.
And for that reason, I started my new life and my new chapter with less than $200 to my name. I suffered financial abuse, which was a huge part of the abuse I suffered. Although during the marriage, I didn’t know that was financial abuse. I just thought he took care of everything. And when we ended up in the family court system, he hired an attorney.
https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco
I was not. I stood in court like a deer in the headlights. With no knowledge of the system, I had never been in court. I am very conflict avoidant by nature, and so it was a very uneven playing field. It’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. And I wasn’t able to prove anything. I was at a huge disadvantage.
Documenting Abuse While Fighting For Custody
Tina: I would have also been documenting the issues directly related to my children, and how he affected them. I look back and want to hug myself 12 years ago, because in my naive mind, he had never participated in our daughter’s lives. He had never changed a diaper. He never cared to be involved. And so I assumed I would continue parenting, and he would have limited involvement.
Well, that’s not what happens when you divorce a narcissist. He knew that the children were all I cared about. And so you can imagine that’s exactly where he went. But I had no proof. In reality, a lot of it doesn’t matter. If somebody stands up in the family court system and says, Hey, I’ve never been a parent. But I’m here, put me in coach, they’re going to give them the opportunity.
But I needed to document the things that were damaging to my children. The abuse, the emotional abuse, the short temper, things where his behaviors obviously affected my children.
Anne: So you hear the therapist tell you maybe he’s a narcissist. And the only thing you can do with a narcissist is just survive narcissistic abuse. And you start thinking, okay, “Well maybe we can get help now.” I want to talk about this stage for a minute, because many women are trying to get help for their husband. Again, that’s a form of resistance, because you’re trying to make sure the abuse stops. I found that a lot of women in this stage don’t want to get divorced. Because divorce is not an option for them. They also don’t want education about divorce.
Loneliness & Seeing Who He Really Is
Anne: In my situation, I didn’t file for divorce, he did, and I was unprepared. So once we find out something serious about our husband, even if divorce isn’t on the table for us. Being prepared for what could happen is so important. Because once we see reality, once we see a narcissist, and begin fighting a narcissist for custody, we see who he really is,
We don’t know what he’s going to do. So in the Living Free Workshop, we actually have a section about financial safety. Even if women aren’t considering divorce, so they can be financially safe. No matter what’s going to happen. Can you talk about that time after the therapist told you her theory that he was a narcissist, and after you confronted him? And said, “Hey, she said you’re a narcissist, let’s try to figure this out.”
Tina: Two years before I ended up on that therapist’s couch, I had emotionally checked out. I knew things were really wrong. I remember sitting down with him one day and saying, I feel that if someone even gave me a hug right now, I would have an affair with them and that is not who I am.
Also, I never cheated on anyone in my life, but I was trying to describe to him how lonely I felt. I was married, but I never felt more alone in my life. Even when I was single, I have not felt this isolated and alone. It was around that time that I ended up in the therapist’s office. He refused to go.
Therapy & Gaslighting
Tina: So when she gave me those words that started my journey to enlightenment on the topic, I went home. He listened to what I had to say. And he said, that doesn’t sound like me. That sounds like my dad. And in my mind, I’m laughing going, well, he and his dad are the same person.
But at that point, he knew that I was ready to leave. And so he agreed to go to therapy with me. But here’s the funny part. He insisted it be a man, and it be a PhD. So we found this psychologist, and spent six months in what could be described as marital therapy. And it was at about the six month mark, where we unpacked everything and it was all out there.
And the psychologist said, “I really think you should do a psychological evaluation. I think there could be a personality disorder or something deeper that I’m not qualified to diagnose.”
That was the day my ex-husband said our marriage was over. We drove there in separate cars, and he called me afterwards. And said, “I just called the psychologist and told him that we’re done with marriage therapy and that it’s over. Because you have successfully manipulated him.”
The gaslighting, and I’m thinking, did I manipulate him? I was just sharing our truth. I remember feeling like I was punched in the gut during the marriage therapy. The therapist originally wanted to meet with me privately, then him privately, and then us both together.
Tina: But his lies were so thick, and I was constantly saying, but that’s not what happened. This is what happened. To the point where the therapist said, “I don’t feel comfortable meeting with him alone, because I can’t trust anything he says. I need Tina here to verify the truth.”
Anne: That is so remarkable. In so many cases I hear about, the therapist believes him. That the therapist took this, stepped back and was like, “Mmm, he’s not telling the truth.” That is a good therapist right there.
Tina: Absolutely. I’m so grateful, not only for the one who originally planted the seed, but also for that one, because for me, it was validation, and most people don’t get that. Even in the world of therapy, there are so many therapists and psychologists who are not trained in narcissistic abuse. To where I wouldn’t have received that validation from most mental health professionals. So I’m incredibly grateful. That was the end of our marriage.
The irony is that I wasn’t the one who filed for divorce. I wish it was just him going in and filing. It was actually him terrorizing me before he filed for divorce. I had gone to my sister’s house for the weekend, and he basically had moving vans ready. The second I pulled out of the driveway. He took everything I owned, completely stripped my house bare.
Bizarre Behaviors
Tina: It was the most bizarre chilling scene to walk back into. He had redecorated my bedroom to look like that of a toddler’s. It’s hard to even describe to this day, cleared my house of every material possession that I owned, so that he could go in and say that all happened during our marriage, and we have no assets. And then the next day he went and filed for divorce. Very sociopathic, is what a lot of professionals have pointed out to me.
Anne: That is so crazy. And so chilling. It reminds me of when my ex, we were married, had a protective order, and he came to remove all his stuff out of the house. I wasn’t there, but my dad was. My dad said it was the strangest and most bizarre scene. He said my ex acted as if he were going on a camping trip. Not packing up his entire life, and leaving his own home, his own children, and his own wife.
It was as if nothing happened and he was just packing up. For, you know, a couple of days. And it’s so chilling and weird. So I really empathize with that. You talked about two things you wish you would’ve known. So the first was to be more aware of the finances. And the second was to document the damage he’d done to your children because you would soon be dealing with custody.
Let’s talk about the divorce process itself. And how many bizarre things can use the actual divorce process as an extension of the abuse to continue abusing.
Post-Separation Abuse When Fighting For Custody
Tina: Right, and before we do that, I want to add, a third one. That I think, in reflection, in hindsight, that I would really emphasize is choosing your battles wisely. The narcissist will invite you to so many different battles. And when you engage in every one of them, it muddies the water for the family court system. So then It looks like you’re both high conflict.
So that would be the third one that I would add, in addition to the financial picture and documentation. Is really choosing your battles wisely and being aware of what the court cares about and what they don’t.
And then, to answer your question, I refer to it as post separation abuse, everything that happens from the day of your separation, and sometimes even leading up to the day of separation, the calculating and the manipulation that goes on behind the scenes. The post separation abuse that I experienced was by far worse than the abuse I suffered during our marriage.
Post separation abuse can be the smear campaigns. We live in a very small town, a small community, and we were both very active in the business community. He went on an absolute smear campaign in an effort to further isolate me and make sure that I had no friends or resources.
I mean, he told people that I had all these affairs. That was not true. He was concerned about my mental health around the children when I was fighting for custody. That was not true, but when people know both of us as this golden couple in the community, and someone says something like this, you know, why would someone make that up? I think that’s what many people are left with, unless there was truth.
Grooming & Using Children as Pawns
Tina: Using my children as pawns, as weapons in our custody battle, was another difficult thing for me to grasp. Because during the marriage, I protected my kids. I sheltered them. I went to great lengths to ensure they were away from him whenever he was in a mood or whatnot.
And then their children are now in, and he said, “You know, you don’t have to take care of this person, and you have no control.” I had a hard time with that. And he knew the kids were the way to hurt me.
Anne: So many women I talk to when they’re considering separation will say something like, Oh, he would never do that. He told me it’s okay, and I think to myself, grooming, grooming, grooming, grooming, just wait a second. You’ll see a different side of him than you have ever seen before. When you haven’t separated yet, he has some modicum of control over you or power over you.
That’s what they thrive on. So post separation, they’re just desperately trying to get control back. Parts of them come out that you’ve never seen before . So what would you say to a woman who says that? Like, “oh, he’ll never do that. He’s a good guy. We’ve talked about it before. I’ve been the primary caregiver. He wants to do the right thing.” what would you say to her?
Tina: I tell people take the darkest example of who that person was during your relationship on his absolute worst day or his worst rage or the worst, day of abuse. That is who you are dealing with at a core level. And everything else is just a mask.
Setting Boundaries While LItigating With A Narcissist For Custody
Tina: The family court system to some degree allows you to start having boundaries, whether it be, with communication or the parenting time schedule, they don’t like that for me. I thought during my marriage, a boundary was police tape law enforcement put up.
That’s the only thing I really knew about boundaries. I had none. And so for me to say, you know, you can call the kids between six o’clock and eight o’clock at night. That was a boundary. Something that small would spin the person. They’re triggered by boundaries so be aware of this when dealing with a narcissist in a custody battle.
They’re triggered by you having a voice, becoming empowered, and they have to continue to try to exert control. In the court system, they can keep that mask on very tight because it’s, it’s a high for them to fool everybody in the court system.
But that dark person, that rage that you saw at whatever point in your relationship, that is who you are dealing with outside of the court. And. The children become their primary weapons. I don’t care what they said during the relationship. All of it is fair game in their eyes to keep control. And sometimes that’s extreme.
Anne: So for women listening to this and considering divorce. And they’re thinking, wait a minute, Tina just said it gets worse. Wait a minute. Tina just said the abuse is, and I would agree, it’s always going to get worse before it gets better.
So you can think Tina and Anne said this. And they’re like, why would I get divorced then? Why would I try to start setting these boundaries. What would you say to them?
Teaching Children & Fighting A Narcissist For Custody
Tina: On any given day, I receive between a hundred and 500 emails. The most heartbreaking, heart wrenching emails I receive on any given day. Are from the moms who say, “20 years ago, we didn’t have this type of education. And I was afraid to leave, and now my children have grown, and they carry on the cycle either as the abuser, or as a victim of abuse. And my daughter is now married to an exact replica of my husband.”
So my opinion is even if I walk into that courtroom and get 50 -50 when fighting for custody, First of all, I don’t believe there’s anything permanent in family court. I am very much of the mindset that, okay, great, if that’s my starting point, I’m going to chip away at it until I can put my head on my pillow at night and know that my kids are safe. And I know that triggers people and they go, oh my , I can’t imagine not having my kids 50 percent of the time.
When your kids are growing up in a situation where they don’t have any area to see what healthy looks like, it is more damaging, in my opinion. Even if I had my children 50 percent of the time to show them what healthy looks like, to show them what empowerment looks like, to teach them about boundaries, and to listen to their gut and instincts, and that their voice matters.
I used to teach my kids at a very early age, what red flags were. My daughter would come home from the playground and she’d say, mom, this girl did this, and it was a red flag.
When Your Children Have To Spend Time With Them
Tina: And so we don’t have the opportunity to teach our kids those things when we live in red flags. When that is your life. Yeah, you have the ability to show them a solid, healthy foundation, lead by example, and be their role model. You have way more power to protect your kids over the long haul than you would in that relationship.
Anne: Yeah, that’s important for women to think about when fighting for custody. The example they are to their children is setting boundaries. I like to think of it as two fishbowls. The bowl he is in will always have cloudy water. And if you’re also living in that fishbowl, they’re not going to see things clearly, but if you live in a fishbowl with clear water. Then when they are in the fishbowl with you, everything will be clear and you’ll set a good example.
When they’re in the fishbowl with him, it will be cloudy, but then they’ll start to recognize, oh, the water over here is clean and the water over there is cloudy. And they can start telling the difference. In your book, The Narcissist Decoder, you put some of your X’s insane emails in there as an example.
I did something similar to that in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop where for years I gathered abusive messages, both my own. And then also women that I helped. So those are real abusive messages in there. And then examples of how to respond to them and your book. The narcissist decoder is similar.
Abusive Messaging When Coparenting with A Narcissist
Anne: Your ex was an alcoholic, which you could prove, you could prove that he showed up late frequently. The Living Free Workshop includes examples from five different real life abusers. So you can see the different abusive styles in these messages. I’ve included my own X’s messages in the Living Free Workshop. My ex is an attorney, he wrote everything perfectly. He didn’t swear. He gaslit a ton. But it sounded so good.
Then in real life, he always showed up on time. He brought them back on time.
Tina, from your perspective, what recommendations would you have for women in situation with a narcissist a cunning, but squeaky clean type narcissist during custody?
Tina: That’s a really difficult situation, and it’s one that’s fairly common. You know, you have those who are much better at impression management, is what I call it.
The CEOs, the sales guys, the ones who, their livelihood depends on their image. Or they’re very savvy and would never put something in writing that’s going to give you the ammunition to show, you know, look, their words and actions are not in alignment. Something that I’m big on is profiling exactly who you’re up against.
Empowering Children
Tina: Time hop in your mind. If you time hop one year, three years or five years, is this person capable of parenting? Because what we know is that parenting can be selfless work. It can be tedious. Where there’s not a lot of supply you can get from your kids when you’re doing the monotonous, day-to-day parenting stuff.
A lot of these people, what you’ll see is that over time, they’ll cancel on parenting time, or they have a big event that they go to, So sometimes it’s just chipping away at it from that angle. When the battle dies down and they’re not getting supply from constant court dates, a lot of them tend to phase out of the picture or they’ll start leaving the kids with other people.
I call the discarding of the kids, where, for 50-50. But then you’ll find they’re leaving your kids with their mom or caregiver. And so then you’re documenting and building your case from that perspective. It is very difficult to go up against somebody who is very savvy with what they put in writing. Those are things that are out of our control.
So if you have somebody who presents so well and is never going to give you what you need to hold them accountable in court, that’s where your focus and your energy becomes empowering your kids during these custody battles. Like I touched on a minute ago, um, you know, really strengthening them and empowering them. So they are resistant to their husbands gaslighting.
Narcissistic Relationships While In A Custody Battle
Tina: They know that they have boundaries that are physical, emotional, and psychological. Really creating labels for all of those things that many of us didn’t learn. So sometimes the focus just becomes empowering our kids to withstand something like this and to connect the dots on their own. I tell people you can empower your kids and teach them what healthy looks like and what toxic looks like without ever pointing the finger at their other parent.
And when they come home and connect those dots by themselves, it’s much more powerful than anything you could ever say. And in those things, situations. That’s where we see that preteens or teenagers recognize how dysfunctional the other parent is. They become their own empowered little warriors to say, “I’m not going this weekend.”
Anne: You mentioned the word toxic. When people say toxic relationship, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up . Same thing with high conflict divorce. These are words that imply that both of them have a problem. They’re not good for each other. Rather than recognizing there’s a toxic person, poisoning the relationship and the other person’s healthy, but she’s getting sick from his poison.
Or the same thing with high conflict divorce, you’re literally just trying to tell the truth. You’re literally just trying to hold on to reality. And the reason why it’s such a huge fight and the conflict is so enormous is that there’s another person who will not live in reality. There’s nothing to do, but conflict in that situation. Can you talk about how the family court sees that and how to navigate that unfortunate neutrality bias? I’ll call it that, their bias toward neutrality rather than recognizing abuse.
Family Court System Bias
Tina: Right, we’re up against a situation in the court system where judges are not educated on domestic violence. In fact, I’ve been compiling some numbers. Many states have zero requirements for judges training in domestic violence. The ones with training requirements. It is minimal. My 15 year old daughter is more educated on domestic violence than most judges.
Just like my judge actually said to me, you chose this person to marry. You chose this person to have children with, it’s not my job to fix this situation. That was a huge gut punch. But, in hindsight, I’m actually big on radical acceptance and managing my expectations. So, as hard as that was for me to hear, I was glad he was open with his train of thought. Because then it allowed me to adjust. The direction I was going, and not look towards the court to be my savior or protector.
And most judges would never actually verbalize that, but I can guarantee you they’re all thinking that. You’re in a system that blames the victim. It’s important to know that going into the system so that you can adjust your expectations. The easy stamp or label for family court professionals to put on these cases is high conflict. And then the burden is on us to show that we are not part of the problem.
And that’s very much an ultra marathon to do that. But it’s critical that all of the decisions that we make go towards Showing that we are the healthy part of the equation, and it can take time. In my case, it was probably year six before the court really recognized that he was the problem.
Presenting Your Custody Case When In Court With A narcissist
Tina: And for me, that was keeping my communication. It was my goal to paint a picture and present it as the healthiest co parent they had ever seen. That was my authentic truth. If I had a healthy co-parent, I would be a lottery win for somebody in the co-parenting department. And so it was important for me to operate from my place of authentic truth. That came across during our custody battle.
In my written communication with him, in my presentation in the court, or with child custody evaluators. I remember going through my second custody evaluation and saying to the evaluator, I understand this appears to be a high conflict divorce. And I am somebody who can self-reflect to a fault. I am open to your feedback or expertise. If you see areas where I could be doing something different, I am a sponge. I will absorb that.
I will put it into play, because I’m truly at a loss. for how to continue navigating the situation where I’m fighting a naarcissist for custody. So those types of descriptors show that I am not part of the conflict. One of the missing components in the court system is data and research on this topic. Santa Clara University came out with a paper, and it has to do with high conflict individuals in the court system and the toll they can take on the system.
But also on these cases, and that is fantastic to start seeing that type of dialogue happening and research. Because other than that, you know, even when somebody goes through the court system, and maybe they’re so desperate to get a psychological evaluation that shows they’re dealing with a narcissist or someone in the antisocial personality disorder category.
Psychological Evaluations & Lack Of Education On Abuse
Tina: I see the desperation, and most of the time, they can’t get that. psychologist will not actually come out and diagnose them. They’re going to say the person has high traits. That’s not a diagnosis, and it does you no good. And then there’s a lack of education in the court system on what that actually means. So, if you are one of the rare ones that gets a solid diagnosis, now you’ve got a stack of papers that cost probably $20,000 and they still do you no good in the court system.
Because of that lack of research on this issue. Psychologists, a lot of them, understand narcissistic personality disorder as DSM. But there’s no deeper research that shows how these people affect children or co- parenting situations or the legal arena. And that’s what’s desperately needed to make changes and to educate the court system on what we’re all dealing with.
Anne: For someone who had a bad experience with in court fighting for custody, or who’s in the middle of a court proceeding, who is just worried or scared or thinks, is this going to work or am I going to be worse off than I was before?
Do you have any words of wisdom for them?
Tina: Keep your tank full. It’s so easy to get beaten down by the system. I’ve had so many dark days to where I really questioned if I could keep doing this. The reality is, You never know what’s around the next corner. I have seen the most dire circumstances do a complete 180.
Settling Outside of Court
Tina: I have seen things that you would never believe unfold. Some of this, is when somebody is feeling so beaten down and failed by the system. And then you just never know what’s around that next corner. Our kids need us to keep our oxygen mask on. And 10 years ago, if you would have asked me, refilling my tank meant a day spa for a full day.
Now you could set my alarm 10 minutes before my kids get up to have some alone time and quiet and collect my thoughts and gratitude. It sounds so cliche, but during the darkest days of my custody battle, that gratitude journal. was what kept me going, and sometimes all I could find grateful for was that the sun was shining or for my next breath.
If I had advice for people in general, in these situations, any time you can settle outside of court, it’s in your best interest. And sometimes that’s knowing what’s important to the other party, using it as leverage, getting in and out of the court system as quickly as you can. Because In the majority of these cases, especially when there’s no fight left, they don’t have to keep the mask on anymore because there’s no one watching from the court system.
And the excitement of fighting you is done, and that’s where the kids start to catch on that this is not normal. He is not healthy.
Custody Evaluations
Tina: And the kids start to take a stand. A lot of times when we see that happening, The kids are a threat to him. For image reasons, if he’s got a 13 year old that’s sulking and isn’t posing for the cute Instagram photos anymore because they’ve called him out, they know who he is, they become a threat to their image.
And so that’s where you’ll see them discard the oldest child or start returning the kids early or cutting their parenting time short. Usually, once the fight is done, this isn’t really what they want to do. If you’re appointed a family court professional to investigate. I would want to know every single thing I could about that family court professional to know what their biases are. For example, if a custody evaluator or a GAL was appointed.
Anne: When you say GAL, just for my listeners, that means guardian ad litem. So that’s someone who’s representing the children in tthe custody case.
Tina: Right, and some people in some states, it’s called minor’s Counsel, but yeah, it’s an attorney representing the child, and sometimes it’s not even an attorney, but that’s where it’s so important to know your system and to know everything you can about the judge, the Minor’s Council, GAL, the evaluator, because my strategy with one You know, custody evaluator would be completely different than it would be with the next custody evaluator.
Knowing Your Court Professionals
Tina: And there’s an example I use, there’s a courthouse in California. I’m not going to say which town it is, but, um, there’s two family court judges. If I were in courtroom, a presenting my case, I would present it one way. If I was in courtroom B, I would present an entirely different way, just based on what I know about the case and each judge.
One of those judges lost her son to a drug overdose, and so she takes addiction issues very seriously. In my case, my ex -husband was a raging alcoholic, so I would highlight and emphasize the addiction component and how it was affecting my kids in courtroom A, but I know in courtroom B, That judge doesn’t care about alcohol.
He’s probably a drunk himself. And so, you know, my presentation, depending on who the GAL is or who the evaluator or judge is, night and day different. And people don’t really put enough weight into that. You need to know who these people are, what biases they potentially bring. Maybe they’re very father focused and believe that dads should have 50-50, maybe they are more trained in the tender years where, you know, they know that a primary parent is important.
So it’s really difficult to say there is no one size fits all approach. It really comes down to who the professional is. The narcissist craves power. If you’re up for a custody evaluation or minor’s counsel, your job is to choose three. That you would be perfectly okay with and then submit that to the other side and give them the power and control that they crave to be able to make the final decision.
Choosing Court Professionals
Tina: I would ask your attorney about potential minor’s counsel that you could be appointed, and everything they know about each person. So you’ll make your own list of potential biases, the good, the bad, the ugly for each person. And then anywhere you can look online, do the research on everyone in your area, write out surrounding cities, and start educating yourself on who it could potentially be.
If you’ve done the background work on who the professional is, and you know, you get GAL A. When you are fighting for custody, then it’s a no go, and that’s where you settle. I say strategy is so important in these situations, but this is such an emotional topic for us. It’s easy for me to sit here and say, you know, strategy, strategy. If my ex sent me an email right now.
It would completely trigger me and spin me, but overall strategy is important. That’s where keeping ourselves centered, getting to a higher vantage point so we can look at it through the lens of strategy and not emotion, and keeping our strategy fluid, because you never know when there’s going to be a turn in the road and you have to readjust. And go, okay, well, that wasn’t the direction I was planning to go, but I already had the other route mapped out.
And so now here are a few new options that present themselves. Remember, the court doesn’t know either of you. You know what a monster you are up against when fighting a narcissist for custody, and it’s an area where I reflect back. I was so focused on the light bulb moment I had recently had. I have just been given a term.
Proving Your Case
Tina: I know he’s a monster, and I’m so eager to share that with everyone. And looking back, it took me six years into my marriage to recognize what a problem this was. He doesn’t know either of us. And for all the judge knows, I could be a pathological liar. So keeping in mind, it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. And starting to scrub down what matters to the court in getting the best custody arrangement, an attorney told me early in my battle that even liars and jerks are allowed to be parents.
So that has to factor into your radical acceptance equation, and knowing what’s important, but keeping in mind they don’t know either of you. And so presentation is critical until they get to the point where they start recognizing the problems in the other person.
Anne: It’s heartbreaking and frustrating, and I’m actually enraged. By the fact that abuse victims who have suffered so much, who are doing the right thing in fighting for custody. The burden of proof is on them. When I went through it, I was infuriated. That I had all the information and couldn’t get the help I needed. It’s so triggering to talk about strategy. But also so important.
BTR Living Free Workshop
Anne: That’s why I put all the strategies I used in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because I thought everyone needs to know these, no matter what stage you’re in. The sooner women learn these strategies for fighting a narcissist, the safer they will be throughout the whole process. No matter where you are in the process, no matter if you’re still married and you’re just considering what am I going to do.
Even if divorce isn’t even an option for you. These strategies will work no matter what situation you’re in. The workshop is amazing. It has a workbook and short videos. After each video, if you want to process the information deeply, there’s a question, and you can spend some time filling out that question. If you’re exhausted and want to run through the video super fast.
You can just type in there and push enter. And that will take you to the next video. Same thing with the workbook. You can take a lot of time to fill it out and process everything. Or you can just fill it out a tiny bit and move on. Or not fill it out at all, but make sure that you do have the workbook in front of you so that you know, what it entails. Some women watch all the videos first and then they’re like, that was really good.
And then they go through it a second time, so they can be like, okay, I’m going to learn these strategies on a deep level.
Tina’s Advocacy Work
Anne: Tina you are amazing. Your work is amazing. You continue to do great work across the country. You helped pass Om’s Law passed here in my state. Kayden’s law passed in other states. Your advocacy is imperative to victim safety. And I appreciate you so much.
Thank you so much for sharing your story today.
Tina: Thank you so much.
If Your Husband Lies About Small Things, You Need This
Jan 09, 2024
If your husband lies about small things, here’s why it’s not a small problem. Many women in our community describe the same beginning: they start noticing little lies, inconsistencies, or half-truths, but they dismiss them because, overall, he seems like a good guy. He’s involved. He apologizes. He’s trying. So the lies get minimized, explained away, or pushed aside.
One of the hardest parts of living with deception is that clarity doesn’t usually arrive with a big confession or undeniable proof. It comes in fragments, small moments that are easy to dismiss, especially when your goal is to hold your family together. When a husband lies about small things, it often points to something much bigger, but that pattern can be hard to see while you’re still inside it. In this episode, Anne shares the French Fry Analogy to explain why lying, gaslighting, and blame-shifting about “small things” can be a major red flag.
Before reading on, here’s something many women don’t realize: lying can be an emotional abuse tactic. That truth explains why so many thoughtful, capable women stay confused for so long—not because they’re in denial, but because it’s nearly impossible to see clearly when you’re living in a pattern that alternates between hurtful behavior and reassuring gestures, between small lies and moments that seem like progress.
To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’ve been calling her Jenna to protect her identity. You’ll hear in this interview that Jenna didn’t come to clarity because her marriage suddenly got worse. She found clarity when she finally had language for the patterns and she could see how the small lies really revealed something much bigger.
So let’s get into it. Welcome, Jenna
Jenna: Thank you, Anne.
Anne: Jenna and I have been interacting on social media for a long time. On social media, we take the concepts I teach here on the podcast and make visual representations of these concepts, usually through infographics. But every once in a while, I do a video. One of the infographics I posted was an epiphany for Jenna. It helped her see that her husband had been lying about small things, which distracted her from realizing he was also lying about big things.
Speaking of social media, on Facebook. I’m also on Instagram @btr.org__, TikTok @btr.org, and if you search btr.org on YouTube, you’ll find me there. If you want to comment anonymously on any particular episode, let’s say this one, go to our website, btr.org and in the search bar put in the title of the episode. So for this one, it would be, my husband lies about small things.
This episode will come up. You can see the transcription and scroll down to the bottom. And comment anonymously about what you think. I always love your comments. And I interact with women on the website all the time. I also interact with women on social media.
My Marriage Was Not Healthy
Anne: So you’re following me on social media, we’re interacting online and then you see this infographic. What happened next?
Jenna: It resonated instantly with me. I thought we had hard times, but things are still getting better. I thought we were on that upward trajectory. But when I saw it on Instagram. It just suddenly clicked for me. It has two different graphs. One says, “What I thought my marriage was” and it shows a graph that goes up and down, but it has a trajectory that’s going up. Then, it says, “healthy, hard, healthy, hard.”
Anne: Yeah, it’s kind of like a stock market graph. It’s going up in general and healthy is when it goes up and hard is when it dips down. And when it goes back up, it goes even higher.
Jenna: It captures the experience I had exactly. Then, underneath what I thought my marriage was, it says what it really was. Instead of the healthy and hard healthy and hard points, it’s actually grooming and abuse, grooming and abuse. The grooming just gets more extreme, and the abuse stays the same. So it’s not that the marriage is improving. It’s that the grooming is just improving, and abuse is still there.
Anne: The abuse is actually probably getting worse, but you can’t go lower in a graph. So I created this infographic because that was my experience.
RECOGNIZING EMOTIONAL ABUSE PATTERNS WHEN MY HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS
Anne: I thought as we did addiction recovery, and we went to all these therapists, and we did 12 step for wives of pornography addicts…. all the stuff that we would take a step forward and then two steps back. Because the addiction recovery industrial complex told me “He’s going to have relapses” and “progress, not perfection.” I thought, “Oh, we are improving over time, but of course, it’s not just going to be a perfectly straight line to success. We’re going to have ups and downs along the way.”
But when I finally took a step back and realized it was abuse, and that my husband lies about small things as part of that pattern, I saw that we weren’t actually moving forward at all. I was just going around in circles. What I thought were setbacks were really just more lies, more grooming, and more emotional abuse.
Let’s talk about the factors that would lead a woman to think that these are the regular ups and downs of either marriage in general, or the ups and downs of being in a relationship with a man addicted to exploitative material or maybe has a mental health issue.
Jenna: I think the actions he did were positive. He was going to church. And he participated in an addiction recovery group. He did all the things that you would think of when you think of improving. Even times when he would apologize. Or times when he would not gaslight me. I thought that was positive and thought maybe that was improvement.
Anne: Congratulations, you didn’t lie. I’m so proud of you!
My Husband Was Lying & I Was Sticking It Out
Jenna: Seriously, it would be like, oh wow, he took money out of my wallet. And didn’t think I saw, but he didn’t try to convince me that he didn’t do that. As long as you’re going to a group, to therapy, to church, there’s this idea that just doing those things equals I’m a good person.
Anne: I think there’s also the societal idea that everything is fixable. As long as you’re willing to work on it and go to therapy. Of course, there’s going to be a solution. Many people go straight to whether their abusive husband needs therapy or an addiction recovery program. Rather than thinking, “Whoa, we need to get you emotionally and psychologically safe.”
Why Does My Husband Lie?
I was talking to my uncle the other day about my ex, telling him some details. And he was shocked. And then at five o’clock in the morning, the next day he emailed me and said, “Anne, your ex needs a treatment program.”
I just laughed, I was like, “That’s what I thought. And so that’s why I got him into a treatment program.” Because he’s abusive and he lies, treatment didn’t help him. And no one told me it was abuse, which is why I’m doing this podcast.
Jenna: Yeah. I think there’s an idea that marriage is hard. No one’s perfect. As long as he’s working on it by going to a treatment center or going to therapy or whatever he may be doing. As long as he’s doing those things, you just have to stick it out. Those kinds of ideas, at least, were in my mind, and made it difficult for me to even consider the option that maybe not all marriages are this hard. Maybe not all marriages are abusive. I think that’s one idea that kept me stuck.
I Learn His Lies, Gaslighting & Manipulation Are Abuse
Anne: Even if you know it’s abuse, then you’re like, “Wow, it’s abuse? Okay, we need to get him into therapy because he’s abusive because he has childhood trauma or he feels shame.” I don’t think they realize that’s not why he’s abusive, number one, and therapy will not help. Most therapists think, “Oh, I can help.” They don’t realize they’re going to get manipulated and gaslit themselves.
I don’t know if it’s an ego thing, but therapists don’t tend to realize they are unable to help abusers. Because the prevailing opinion of everyone is that therapy will solve this, I work so hard to educate all women about this.
So I hope the infographics help. I took many of them, and I put them in the back of Trauma Mama Husband Drama, which is my picture book for adults. It’s available at btr.org/books. And It’s also available on Amazon. It’s a picture book. So it’s also this visual representation of what it’s like to be emotionally and psychologically abused and coerced, and not realize what’s happening because of his lies.
Teaching these concepts in a way that women can actually apply is my top priority. And social media is so important, because I can post those visual representations there. As you’ve been interacting with me on social media, what’s your take on why these are so helpful for victims?
I Seek & Find The Truth
Jenna For me, learning the term betrayal trauma was incredibly validating and empowering. It gave me language for what I was experiencing—especially in moments when my husband lies about small things and I couldn’t explain why it affected me so deeply. The infographics do something similar. They capture my experience in a way I sometimes can’t put into words. They give me a simple, visual way to understand what I’m feeling and to share that understanding with others. It’s therapeutic, clear, and approachable—and the fact that they’re visually engaging makes them even easier to take in.
Anne: Yeah, having it be cute doesn’t hurt. So the process is like, I have an idea in my head, I podcast about it. Then I draw like a pathetic stick figure. And then my amazing friend, who’s an illustrator and graphic designer, brings these to life. She’s incredible. And then she and I go back and forth through so many different iterations to make sure the concept is clear,
And then I always revisit them. Maybe six months, or a year or two years later, I look at it again and I’m like, “Oh we need to alter this a little bit.” I’m always getting feedback on them and making updates. So when you say an infographic I created that I posted, it helped you realize your husband’s lies about the small things. Indicated a much bigger thing, that warms my heart.
Infographics Helped Me See Reality
Jenna: It was so easy for me to overlook the experiences I’ve gone through that were emotionally abusive, and think, he doesn’t punch me. He doesn’t hurt me physically, but emotional abuse affects your body and spirit immensely. It’s not that bad. But when I see it in the infographic, it’s so obvious. It’s apparent what I am experiencing is emotional abuse. It’s damaging, and I’m being sucked into this abuse cycle of grooming and devaluing. It just makes it so clear for me and helps me navigate my next steps to safety.
I took the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. The workbook that comes with the workshop had so many visuals and beautiful artwork. It captures the reality of my situation. It’s simple and easy to understand, and helps me digest my own experience. I appreciated that.
Anne: I’m so glad to hear that. That’s awesome. I’ve taken so many trainings or workshops. And I was so confused most of the time. I always felt like, Am I doing it wrong? Is it me? And then I realized, no, it’s just not detailed. It’s unclear. It doesn’t give me a way to process it. It doesn’t give me a way to interact with it. And so just like everything else at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I test everything for years, years, and years.
With the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, I first used the strategies myself to deliver my kids and myself from abuse. I wanted to make sure it wasn’t a fluke. So I duplicated that success. With other victims, we created a workshop out of it. We ran that workshop live for a few years to get feedback, to know where were victims getting stuck? What parts weren’t clear?
The Betrayal Trauma Workshop Is Invaluable
Anne: Then we created all the videos for the format. It’s now online, and those videos are incredible because it has visual representations for all these concepts to help women get it. And then I continue to tweak it, tweak it, and tweak it. I have a master’s degree in curriculum and instruction. So I’m obsessed with making sure the content we produce is clear and helpful. And that the services we provide are exactly what women need.
Jenna: Yeah, the workshop for me was invaluable. I felt like I learned so much about specific actions I could take and specific situations. It was super helpful.
Anne: I am so glad to hear that. I hear that every day from women, how much it helped them. If you’re listening and interested, you can learn more about The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop.
The French Fry Analogy
Anne: As Jenna and I were interacting on social media, she shared something that made me realize the French fry analogy would really help her name what was happening in her marriage. This analogy illustrates why, when a husband lies about small things, it’s often evidence that something much bigger is going on.
He comes up to you and says, “You know what? I have been eating at McDonald’s too much, and it’s not healthy for me. It’s bothering me. I don’t like it, so I’m just letting you know that I’m not going to ever eat at McDonald’s again, ever. You, as the supportive wife, would be like, sounds great, honey. This is not that important. You’re like, okay, you do you. Good for you. He doesn’t say anything else about it.
Three weeks later, you have to use his car for something. You get in his car, you’re fumbling around with a quarter, and it falls down in a crack. And as you’re trying to get the quarter, you find a French fry. That French fry is unmistakable. It is a McDonald’s French fry. You get your quarter out, you get the French fry out, and you go to your husband and you say, “Hey honey, I lost this quarter and when I found it, I also found this French fry.”
Now if he’s a super healthy person, he might say, “I know I told you I want to stop eating at McDonald’s, but I went to McDonald’s three days ago when I had that long drive. And yeah, one of them fell down in the crack. And as far as me falling off the wagon, I feel really stupid about it.
AN ANALOGY FOR EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS
Anne: This is not an abuse episode. The situation where he wanted to stop eating McDonald’s and then he fell off the wagon is not that big of a deal. He wasn’t trying to deceive you. He wasn’t trying to hide it from you on purpose. When you asked him about the French fry, he readily admitted he fell off the wagon and went to McDonald’s.
Now let’s pretend the whole scenario is the same, but instead, when you find the French fry. And you take it to him and say, I found this French fry. He says. “I don’t know what you’re talking about, I don’t see a French fry.” And then you’re like, “This French fry, this one right here. I found this in the car.”
And he’s like, “Well, one of the kids must’ve got in my car and dropped it in there.” With that same scenario, if he starts to gaslight he lies, he’s not a healthy person. Even if this is just about a French fry. Deceit, gaslighting, and turning the tables would be psychological and emotional abuse.
And to take it even further, if he said, “Why are you going through my car? Why are you trying to check up on me?” Maybe even, “I never told you I wasn’t going to eat at McDonald’s. Of course, I’m going to eat at McDonald’s. Why would you even think I wouldn’t eat at McDonald’s?” So there’s the French fry analogy. How has this analogy helped you?
Experiencing Your Husband’s Lies
Jenna: I think it captured what was happening for me. Like you said, they were small, or they felt small at the time. When my husband lies about small things, it didn’t immediately register as something serious. Back then, I didn’t even know he was using exploitative material.
He would make up stories about hobbies or abilities he actually did not have. Then, to me, he would deny he had made up those stories. So I would just let his lies go. Now I realize how big they were. But I can look back and see the pattern of different French fries I found.
Anne’s EXAMPLE: WHEN A Husband Lies ABOUT SMALL THINGS
Anne: My ex did that too. There was this period where we were at dinner parties or social events. I would look out of the corner of my eye. And he was like doing these Tai Chi moves. And he would talk to people about how much he loved Tai Chi. Like he was some kind of Tai Chi master. So after a while, I was very curious.
So I said, “How do you know so much about Tai Chi?” And he kind of avoided answering me. And so I got real specific and I said, “Did you take Tai-Chi in college?”
“No.”
“Did you take it in high school?”
“No.”
“Did you take it at a gym?”
“No.”
“Have you read a book about Tai Chi?”
“No.”
“Have you ever taken a Tai-Chi class anywhere in any way, shape or form?”
“No.”
“Have you done Tai Chi in a park?” You know how there’s like those old people in a park? “Have you done Tai Chi in a park?”
“No.”
“Maybe on vacation?”
“No.”
Ah, I was dumbfounded. He lies, so I don’t know why he didn’t just lie, but in this moment, for some reason, he wanted me to know. I still don’t know why he wanted me to know, because he had no problem with lies when he wanted to. And finally, and maybe this was a lie too. He said, “I read an article about at once.” Like one article is what he said. And he lies about that? Maybe he never even read one article about it. It was crazy.
So, instead of just saying, I read an article about Tai Chi and I’m interested in maybe taking a class sometime. No, one article apparently made him an expert in Tai Chi.
WHEN YOUR HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS, IT’S NOT HARMLESS
Anne: So if he lies about traveling to London or Tai Chi or French fries, it indicates something serious is happening, but it’s so hard for us to recognize that.
Jenna: For me, I feel like I didn’t have proof. Everything inside me said something here is wrong. It is not normal that my husband lies about small things, like going on a trip to London. My brain would say he’s not using exploitative material, because he’d said he wasn’t using it. I can think of way worse things he could be doing. Maybe this isn’t that big of a deal.
I think it was easy to rationalize it, to say, this isn’t necessarily a good thing, but because he’s told me he loved me, it’s still progress. Back to that upward trajectory graph in the infographic.
Anne: Yeah, totally. After I was separated, I was talking to my dentist. And I said, “I didn’t realize it was abuse. I mean, he had stopped screaming and yelling in my face. And I saw that as progress.”
And my dentist was like, “What? What are you talking about?”
I know my dentist well. I went to high school with him. He just looked at me and he was like, “A good person would never do that”. Like ever. My dentist couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that victims are manipulated to think he lies about this one thing. He realized he couldn’t scream and yell in your face. So then he lies to you. That’s not progress.
But now taking a step back, it’s a gut punch to realize that he wasn’t changing and things weren’t improving. That upward trajectory wasn’t happening. He was just changing up his abuse tactics.
I Struggle To Create Safety
Jenna: When I look back on my experience, I thought these little breadcrumbs were big improvements. The little things he would do I would see as progress. I imagined myself standing outside my house in a hurricane, like lightning, rain and crazy wind. My hair is flying everywhere and debris flying all around me. I imagine the storm around me being the abuse I experienced.
Then I imagine putting my hands over my head, just a little bit as progress. That’s a small improvement from not having any protection, but it’s something. The only thing that created safety for me was walking to my house, stepping inside, and closing the door. I could look out the window and see the crazy storm that was going on outside, but it wasn’t hurting me anymore.
I think that’s the only time I could see the abuse for what it was. Because in the moment, I felt that at least my hands are over my head, I’ve got a little protection. I didn’t understand how much danger I was in until I was safe. And I could look back and see how dangerous it actually was.
Anne: Oh, I like that analogy. I wonder if part of it is the adrenaline of the chaos. Like you might not realize how cold you are until you get inside. And then you’re like, “Oh, I was really cold and miserable.” But in the moment, you’re just trying to make it down the mountain or survive.
One Day At A Time Survival Mode
Anne: Which is why people call abuse victims survivors. Because every day they’re surviving in this mental, emotional, and psychological life and death situation. Even if they’re still in the abuse, because they’re surviving one day at a time.
We need to ask ourselves. “Wait a minute, do I just want to be in survival mode every day? Do I want to be in that type of chaos all the time? Or do I want to actually be safe and rest in my warm house with a cup of hot chocolate?”
And so to help us make our way to safety, that French fry analogy comes in handy especially when a husband lies about small things. Because if something happens, we can think to ourselves, “Okay, if this were just about a French fry, would it still be severe and intense, emotional and psychological abuse?” If someone is willing to completely deny, he lies, gaslights, and blame shifts about a french fry, which is not that big of a deal. That’s a big warning sign that they are emotionally and psychologically dangerous.
I want all the listeners to consider things that you may have thought, that’s not that big of a deal. When he lies and denies you had a conversation about changing the oil or picking up milk from the store. Not only is lying is emotionally abusive in and of itself, it’s only the part of the iceberg you can see, and there is a way, way more beneath the surface that you can’t see.
Social Media’s Role In Figuring Out EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS
Anne: Why has following Betrayal Trauma Recovery on social media, interacting with me and engaging with other women, been useful to you?
Jenna: I love listening to the podcast, and getting bite-sized pieces of information. I can get on, take in one small topic, a quote, or a thought, and sit with it. It gives me something to think about and helps me understand emotional abuse in a way I can actually process, especially when my husband lies about small things.
Anne: That reminds me of one of my good friends in real life. We were friends long before I started podcasting. She’d been in several abusive relationships, but for me, talking to her was always awkward. Because for her, it felt safer to pull away from the pain and not consider it could be emotional abuse. So as we would talk, I would think, “I have the perfect podcast about this. I should tell her about it.” But I would hold back as much as possible.
Our sons were on the same baseball team. So we’d sit together every week and chat while our sons played baseball. And at one game, she told me about her ex, and I was thinking, “Oh, this is abuse. How can I help her understand, since she’s not interested in listening to the podcast?” She loves Instagram. So I said, “Hey, I’m on Instagram. Let’s follow each other.” And the next week at the baseball game, she was like, “Oh, I’ve been learning all this stuff. I realized my ex is abusive.”
And in my head I’m thinking, I know. I’ve been trying to tell you that. I was actually a little frustrated and confused, apparently she wasn’t interested in listening to me to educate her about abuse in person.
I Start Healing With Daily Instagrams & The BTR Workshop
Anne: When it came down to it, the only thing that mattered to me was that she started opening up to the idea that these men she had been dating were abusive. Then I saw the beauty of it.
Because she’s not into podcasts. For her, the little bite-size pieces helped her realize what’s happening when her husband lies about small things. Some women have a hard time leaning into the pain, because that doesn’t feel safe. And so just a little bit at a time is helpful to them. Every woman is different. On social media, we’re all equal. We can interact with other women who’ve been through it. Thanks for sharing that story about how my post on Instagram helped you.
What else has helped you connect with yourself?
Jenna The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop was super helpful. I found them healing and so sacred. They helped me connect with myself and visualize stepping into safety, when that’s scary for me in real life. It helped me visualize myself becoming empowered and accepting that I don’t know what’s going to happen. Also loving myself. There’s one where you revisit your younger self and express love. I felt like it was so healing and powerful for me. I love and value the meditations.
Anne: Yeah, I remember you messaged me right after you did the, “I am just right” meditation. And you said you were crying. I assume those were good tears?
Jenna: Oh, definitely. Yeah, it was the healing tears, where you just had that moment. You feel love for this part of yourself that needed that love. I just loved it.
Anne: I wanted to do those betrayal meditations so that women could process their emotions differently. Which is similar with the infographics and metaphors.
Abuse Education Is Available Through the BTR Podcast & Workshop
Anne: Different types of content or services speak to women in different ways. I’m proud of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve created so many avenues for women to get educated about abuse. This podcast is obviously the best way to educate yourself about abuse. Because this podcast is mostly victim stories. And hearing other women’s experience. And realizing. Holy cow, my husband lies about small things, too. It’s so validating.
Then having those visual representations of the concepts I teach on the podcast with the infographics on Instagram and on our social media channels is so helpful. The interaction is what makes social media so powerful. And Betrayal Trauma Recovery is the only organization that teaches the strategies of how to get to safety in such a detailed and practical way in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop.
And then, of course, we never leave any woman alone in this journey. To get help implementing the strategies you learned in the workshop, to get help actually applying the concepts you learn on social media or through this podcast.
We have online group sessions with coaches that I personally trained. In our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, women share from the heart and get real-time face-to-face feedback from our coaches and other women in the group session. Our team is incredible. We are here for you!
Our Whole Goal Is To Help Women Understand Abuse
Anne: We really care, and it’s my goal and the goal of the whole Betrayal Trauma Recovery team to help every woman understand this. We don’t want anyone trapped in abuse. Like you, Jenna, you’ve been able to apply this stuff and get shelter from the storm. I’m so honored to hear your story. Thank you so much for coming on today.
Jenna: Anne, thanks for all you’ve done for creating Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I love this community. It’s been so helpful to me. I’m really grateful.
Things to Know Before Getting Engaged – Wendy’s Story
Jan 02, 2024
One of the most important things to know before getting engaged is something rarely talked about. The most important thing for women to know before they get married is how to recognize dangerous behaviors after the marriage begins.
If your husband starts to exhibit behaviors he never exhibited before marriage, it’s likely that the man you fell in love with was a mask he wore to coerce you to marry him. This means you’ve been experiencing emotional and psychological abuse the entire time.
Learning the 19 different types of emotional abuse is essential. Our free emotional abuse quiz will help you see if what you’re experiencing is harmful to you.
Transcript: Things to Know Before Getting Engaged
Anne: One of the most important things to know before getting engaged is something that women rarely talk about. I’ve never heard it talked about at a wedding shower.
And the truth is there’s never a good time to talk about it. It’s always awkward and difficult, and we’re gonna try today.
The reason it’s so important to talk about is because so many women have experienced it, and they don’t even know what it is. So Wendy, a member of our community, is here to share her story. Welcome Wendy. Why don’t you start wherever you feel comfortable?
He disclosed every so often that he viewed this. And of course, it seemed like it was just that one time. I’m a heavy sleeper, and I distinctly remember waking up a few times, feeling like I had had intercourse, but I didn’t remember.
I remember feeling worthless, and I felt like everything in our relationship that was wrong was my fault. Because I didn’t enjoy it with my husband. And that’s when I discovered this whole new world. And I found out way more than I guess I ever wanted to know.
The Miserable Experience You Wish You’d Heard About Before Getting Engaged
Anne: I totally understand. At 30 I was a Virgin and so excited. I’m not a prude by any stretch. We married, and after two days of, I was like, this is miserable. I felt like an object. The whole experience, everything around it was awful too. I just felt used and worthless. And then afterward I’d say something like, what are you thinking about?
Hoping that he would connect with me in some way. And talk about me or us or something. But pretty much every time he’d say something like bike parts, and he’d be like staring into space. It felt completely disconnected. and. After a while, I was like, this isn’t fun for me at all. And this has nothing to do with me. It’s all about him.
From then on, I didn’t want to, but I continued to initiate because I thought I had to. I thought it was my job. I thought it’s like a chore that I check off the list. And I did not realize that that was coercion.
Wendy: Right, I enjoyed it when we first married. But then I suffered from what I thought was postpartum depression.
Searching For Answers After Marriage
Wendy: I couldn’t even sleep in our bed. I slept on the couch. So I went to counseling and was better for a while. But I always felt like everything was my fault, and any issues were my fault. And there were people around me saying the same thing. Someone even told me that I should have it with my husband anytime he wanted. And that made me feel terrible. And I didn’t tell my husband about that. I kept that to myself. I just felt so worthless.
For a while, I was like, Oh, well, my husband never abused me. I really thought that and then. In the school library online, I was looking for studies on abuse in marriage, and I was coming up empty. I found stuff on abuse and marriage in Nigeria and a couple other foreign countries. But I didn’t find anything on it in general or even in the U.S. And there aren’t any statistics. So that’s why I was unable to find any statistics.
Wendy: It talked about coercion. I had mostly experienced the coercion. And then it led me to other resources. As I learned more about this topic, I thought, that is exactly what happened. My husband did do this to me, but it was the coercion part that struck me and hit home. And then he admitted to doing this to me in my sleep. I don’t want other women to experience the same thing I experienced for so long.
Anne: It’s absolutely is, and a man can do this to his wife for years without her understanding what’s actually happening.
Let’s go back to coercion. Cause it’s something I talk about so much here on the podcast. What did you learn about coercion in your research?
Wendy: Sure, the first thing they mention is making you feel like you owe them because you’re married to them. You’re in a relationship, they spent money on you, they bought you a gift. They give you drugs and alcohol to loosen up your inhibitions, playing on the fact that you’re in a relationship. Saying such things as it is a way to prove your love for me.
https://youtu.be/sCoUcGmDrXw
Examples Of Coercion
Wendy: If I don’t get it from you, I’ll get it somewhere else. Reacting negatively with sadness, anger, or resentment. If you say no or don’t immediately agree to something. Continuing to pressure you after you say no. Making you feel threatened or afraid of what might happen if you say no. And trying to normalize their expectations. For example, I need it, I’m a man. Mostly it’s like trying to make you feel obligated. to have it with them.
Anne: So many women feel obligated to have it with their husbands. They don’t want to, but they’re worried about the consequences if they stopped.
Wendy: Right, yeah
Anne: On the flip side, they could be abusive to you because they’re hiding things, and maybe hooking up with people. And they’re not initiating with you at all. Because they are spending all their energy outside the marriage
Wendy: Right, and actually one of the studies I looked at mentioned that withholding can be a form of abuse.
Anne: That’s something the abuser will do. The abuser will say she’s withholding. She’s abusing me. But withholding is completely different than not having it with someone, because they are emotionally and psychologically unsafe.
Wendy: Exactly.
Anne: This is why this issue is so difficult with therapists or clergy or other people who don’t understand coercion. Is they’ll say, well, wife, you’re the abusive one because you are withholding. Then, because they believe men need it or they’re going to die or something. If you feel uncomfortable having it with him. That justifies him having it with prostitutes or multiple affairs.
The Myth of Male “Needs” When Justifing Abuse
Anne: A man will not die if he does not have it. If so, what, all boys would die instantly when they were 12 or something?
Wendy: Personally, I didn’t realize that a mutual agreement between the partners about what they want needs to happen every time, and just because you’re in a relationship doesn’t automatically give consent. One of the things you talk about is safety.
Anne: Yeah, safety is huge. If you want it to be mutually beneficial and emotionally and psychologically safe. Then you need to know the truth. That’s information you’d want to know just to be in a relationship with him, let alone have it with him.
Wendy: Right, exactly. And there are lots of women that end up with an STD or an STI, and a lot of times the husband’s like, I don’t know how you got that. You got that from the toilet. You know, Anne, there’s one thing the National Domestic Violence Hotline website says sticks out.
Recognizing Manipulation
Wendy: It’s not consent if you’re afraid or unable to say no. So it’s not consent if you’re manipulated, pressured, or threatened to say yes. It’s also not consent if you’re unable to legitimately give consent, which includes being asleep, unconscious, or under the influence of conscious altering substances like alcohol. Some prescription medications and other drugs.
Anne: Or if he’s purposefully hiding information from you. If he’s lying to you, that’s manipulation. If you think he’ll sleep with someone else, if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. And If you think he’ll divorce you if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. If you think he’ll be sulky all day, if you don’t have it with him, that is a threat.
So when it says manipulated, pressured or threatened. To see us think about all the different ways, they threaten us most of the time, extremely subtly.
Wendy: Yes, that also goes on in the manipulation. Because they’re already manipulating you. I thought it was interesting, because a lot of times they just talk about the abuses and physical assaults. That’s what TV and movies show.
They don’t show this other stuff. And so I thought it was really interesting that the National Domestic Violence Hotline includes that in their information about consent and abuse by coercion.
Anne: Yeah, I received a review from a man who said this podcast wasn’t great. Because my definition of abuse is different than the standard definition. And it’s legit, the definition of coercion we use here is the basic definition of coercion that the National Domestic Violence Hotline uses. I think he just doesn’t want to admit that this can happen to women for years by their own husband and not know.
Recognizing Marital Coercion
Anne: Here’s an example of how women don’t know they’re being harmed by this. I have a wonderful friend. She believes in not having it until marriage, and she was dating someone. And she said something about how she’d gone too far. I was like, what do you mean?
And then she said, well, I don’t know. I didn’t want to have it. I kept saying, no, I tried not to, but then we did have it. and she just had this confused look on her face. And I told her what had been happening. And it was like I had punched her in the stomach. It was not until that moment that she realized this, and not just once. Multiple times over the three years she dated him. And I hugged her, and she backed away from me.
She was obviously extremely traumatized, and this was a trauma response. And she was having maybe a panic attack. She was breathing heavily. She put her hands on the counter, and it took her a while to calm down. When she did, she said, I didn’t realize until this moment that my boyfriend had done this to me for three years. And so many women tell me the same story about what their husband chose to do to them.
Most of the time when I talk to women before they realize what’s happening. I ask, are you being abused? They tell me no. We have a rough marriage, we have communication issues. We have intimacy issues.
Educating Women On Emotional Abuse & Coercion
Wendy: And I think it makes it harder, because my husband didn’t punch walls. If we got into an argument, he would shut down completely and keep it all in. And so it took me a while to realize that I had been abused. You know, there was gaslighting. He always minimized my feelings, because he didn’t think I should ever be angry about anything. It never dawned on me, I would have answered the same way. I would have said, no, I don’t think I’m being abused.
Anne: We need to educate women about this type of abuse, so that women can have words for what’s happening to them. Many people discourage women from thinking their husband is abusive in this way. Because they’re worried about her reporting and then going through a very difficult legal situation. I don’t want anyone to think I am suggesting you report this. You can, if you would like, but the likelihood of him actually being prosecuted or pleading guilty is extremely remote.
Learning About This Before You Get Engaged is Key
If this discussion makes people uncomfortable because they’re like, well, then you have to report. Nothing about this episode is about reporting it. You don’t need to report it. I think knowing what’s happened to you is helpful for healing. The most important thing is that you know what happened. And, that you know the truth. And that’s why it’s so important for women to have a place where they can talk about it.
Or talk about when they realized their husband had been doing this to them for years and they didn’t know. The question of whether you’re going to report it or not doesn’t even have to come into the discussion.
I created The Living Free Workshop for women to get to safety, and to know what strategic actions to take.
Seeking Support & Healing
Wendy: Finding somebody to talk to who is going to be supportive, that’s not going to say, “Well, you’re just making that up.” or “There’s no way, because he’s such a good guy.” Reaching out for support is helpful. Really, understanding what it is and what you’ve been through, and knowing that you’re not alone. I think those are the two biggest things that are helpful.
Anne: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, your emotional and psychological safety. is our absolute top priority. Our coaches can help you process what you’ve been through and support you as you make your way to emotional safety. In whatever way that’s going to look like in your specific situation. Everybody’s journey looks different, and they’ll support you in what you decide. It’s just so important that when you go for help, you get it from a safe person.
Wendy, thank you so much for contacting me. You are so brave, and you can talk about this difficult topic in such an unflinching way. It’s so important that we do. It’s one of the most important things to know before you get engaged. And your example will help so many women. So thank you so much for the suggestion to talk about this and for being willing to share your story. I appreciate it so much.
Wendy: Awesome, thanks for having me.
12 Step for Wives of Addicts? The Painful Truth
Dec 26, 2023
12 step for wives of addicts is commonly suggested to women who experience intimate betrayal. Michelle and Kate, members of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, join Anne to talk about how 12 Step can harm victims.
12 Step Utilizes The Codependency Model (Hint – The Codependency Model Is Bad)
When women experience betrayal and abuse, they may feel eager to gain some control over their lives that feel out of control.
12 step support groups for wives of addicts often subtly blames victims for her husband’s choices and often suggests that women mind their own business.
Codependency and trauma are completely different. Trauma is external—someone does it TO you. Codependency means the problem is your fault.
Transcript: 12 Step For Wives Of Addicts? What You Need To Know
Anne: I’m excited to have Michelle and Kate on the podcast today. They’re fellow Shero friends. We’re going to talk about all, mine included, of our journeys from finding out about our spouse’s addiction, and seeking help first through “codependent” means. Being on that train for a while, and then coming to grips with the fact that it’s abuse.
Then how we progress to where we are today. We’re all learning as we go. So if you’ve listened to the podcast, you may say, oh, she thought this two years ago, now she thinks something different. And that’s how we all progress. So let’s start with Michelle.
Thinking That 12 Step For Wives Of Addicts Would Help Me
Anne: Let’s talk about your journey of discovering healing. What has it been like?
Michelle: It seems like it’s been a forever road. First, there was a friend of mine who told me about this wonderful world of SAL.
Anne: Most listeners won’t know what SAL is. So let me jump in here for a second. This is 12 step for wives of addicts. SAL or S-Anon or Co-SA, there are a bunch of different 12-step programs for wives of addicts. Where wives do the 12-steps themselves. In 12 step for wives of addicts, wives fix their own “side of the street.”
https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw
And that you need to work your own program. Basically mind your own business, make yourself better. And let him do his thing.
Michelle: And this was right when I found out about my husband’s addiction. And so I thought, okay, this is what everyone else is doing, so I guess this is what I need to do too. I attended three to four meetings a week, every week, for six months. And while doing this, I was reading and learning as much as I could learn about addiction and trauma.
Why The 12 Step Group For My Husband’s Addiction Didn’t Sit Right WIth Me
Michelle: So my first real memory of SAL was step one of 12 step for wives of addicts. My life has become unmanageable, and I’m like, wait, my life was manageable a month ago. It’s not manageable now because of my husband’s choices, but I could do everything before, and now my life is unmanageable, but it’s not because I can’t manage my life.
It’s because my life has been turned upside down, and I was like, “Wait, that doesn’t feel right. I don’t like that, but I love the women here. And I love the stories they share. I love how vulnerable they are. I love how open they are. And maybe there’s something I can learn.” So I attended these 12-step meetings and never did a step. Never did them. I read them while we were there, but that’s it. And it was mainly for that connection.
And then I started to notice things. I started to find women who were similar to me. We were kind of out of the box thinkers. And then I realized that the more I told my story, and the more I heard other women’s stories, that’s what I actually needed to heal. It’s been a big discovery process. I liked it for some aspects, because it seemed like I had some control in the situation, when I didn’t. I just have control over me.
Anne: Yeah, it’s funny when you learn something new, like now viewing women who are in relationships with users as abuse victims.
Shifting Away From Misogynistic “Healing” Models
Anne: Once I made that shift in my head, it was like, I’d always known it. And then I reframed everything in my past according to that paradigm, everything fit well. And now when I hear women who have a hard time wrapping their head around it. Or they feel more comfortable or more like they have some control because they’re sitting in the codependent model.
And if they have something to do with it, they can control it, right? So they feel a little more comfortable there at first. Now I think, how can they think that sometimes? And then I think, wait a minute, I thought that. And so it gives me some compassion to think back on my own process. Kate, can you tell us about your journey?
Kate: I actually did not use the 12-steps. I mean, I did a little bit, but I didn’t know it was 12-step at the time. My counselor gave me a bunch of questions. So I did all these things. I didn’t know they were actually the steps.
I loved codependency. It feels so empowering when you first learn about codependency. And then later on, when more trauma started coming out and I found out about my husband’s addiction, I had this analogy come to me: what if I was driving on the road and obeying all the rules? And then a car blindsided me out of nowhere.
Why Codependency Isn’t A Thing
Kate: Yeah, that wouldn’t be my fault at all. I wasn’t doing anything wrong. I wasn’t breaking the law. They’re the ones who broke the law. They hit me. When I realized that, I was like, wait a minute. So, maybe the codependency thing isn’t as accurate as I thought, and then I started going into that. I started to question that they were blaming me for the emotional abuse.
Well, okay, I’m not codependent, but I have codependent behaviors. And then the more I learned that, it became well, I don’t have codependent behaviors. But some women do, and then it was like, well, never mind codependency.
I don’t think it exists, so that was kind of my transformation, especially codependency. 12-step for wives of addicts today is so sugar coated. Still the origins, the actual foundation of codependency is still there. Even if it’s sugar coated, the treatment for it is still the same.
Going to 12 Step for My Husband’s Addiction Make Things Worse For Me
Anne: It’s a very sophisticated form of victim blaming because it manipulates the victim to think that she’s empowered while undermining, blaming, and shaming her. Recognizing victim blaming is an important part of healing.
Kate: The trauma model is sometimes harder to accept than codependency. Which is “Oh, I can control it. I can fix it.” In the trauma model, where I didn’t do anything wrong, and I’m not saying I don’t have flaws, but I didn’t do anything wrong to cause the issues in my marriage. Like the big issues of the addiction, it leaves me feeling more vulnerable.
Anne: Yeah, we were once at The Utah Coalition Against…, and somebody’s materials had the classic drama triangle on it. Where you’ve got the persecutor, the victim and the rescuer. In the codependency model, that’s a common thing they bring out.
12 Step For Wives Of Addicts Doesn’t Teach Women How To Set Effective Boundaries
Anne: And they’re like, yeah, everybody’s in this dance, and sometimes you can be the persecutor, and sometimes you can be the rescuer, and sometimes you can be the victim. And in the trauma model, there’s a perpetrator and a victim.
And it’s not a dance. It doesn’t take two to tango. There’s nothing the victim can do to dance their way out of being a victim. They’re always going to be a victim. They can learn how to keep themselves safe, and they can set boundaries. Okay, let’s pretend like they don’t. And they decide I’m not going to set boundaries, or they don’t know about boundaries. They’re still a victim.
And guess what? It’s still not their fault. And so if they’re in it, they’re still a victim. The abuser is still the perpetrator. And it’s still not their fault. And I think it’s important to make clear that a man should never abuse his wife for any reason. Regardless of what she is doing, regardless of whether she sets boundaries or not. The abuse is still 100%. his deal.
Michelle: How many relationships do we see that the woman has all these crazy issues? These women in these relationships are usually hard workers. They’re usually trying to stay close to their higher power. They are usually dedicated, loyal women. They aren’t off the handle crazy like they’re portrayed. These men flock to these women for a reason. You can be as perfect as possible. And an abuser will still abuse.
The Impact Going To 12 Step For My Husband’s Addiction
Anne: Absolutely. Emotional abuse affects your body and spirit. So I want to tell you guys about my process before my ex’s arrest. I was 100 percent all in the trauma model. Okay, I hated codependency. I was never liking it. So I didn’t talk about it. I thought it was stupid. I called it out all the time. So I didn’t go to 12 step for wives. I didn’t participate in other support groups. I felt like this was his problem, and he had to deal with it. And that, to improve our marriage problems, he had to stop acting out and being angry. That was the solution I saw.
Now I didn’t know how to set boundaries at that time. I thought a boundary was giving him a lecture, like, “This is absolutely inappropriate. You cannot do this. I will not stand for this.” And I’d give him lectures all the time. And I thought things were getting better.
I had this certain view of what was happening. And I thought that what I thought was the right thing. At the time, I thought codependency was stupid. Then when he got arrested, my whole world fell out from under me. And I thought, oh my, maybe I have been wrong this whole time. Maybe I have been the problem,? Maybe I don’t know how to live my life.
I Discovered The 12 Step Literature Blames Victims
Anne: And I immediately started going to 12-step, because I thought something had to be wrong with me. And reading, so I start going to these meetings and reading the blue book, the 12 step book for wives of addicts the S-Anon book.
It says things like. She’s diseased, that she’s pathological, that she’s enabled it. Tons of victim blaming. It would say stuff like, “You have a disease.”, which made me feel uncomfortable. So I would cross that out, and I would write in my book. “You are injured.” instead. My blue book looked like it had been rewritten, Anne style. And the more I thought about it and the more I looked at my book, I was like, wait a minute. I disagree with a lot of these parts in the book.
I’ve crossed out all these sections and written my own version. I was able to do that. It took a lot of mental gymnastics, but for women who can’t see that and work around it, as they read that book. They just feel the full weight of all the victim blaming in there, with no relief and no indication that they’re a victim of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion.
Michelle: If I get myself better, that means he’s going to get better too. Okay, I have some semblance of control here. It’s shifting the blame from him to now you.
The Problem With 12 Step For Wives
Michelle: And so now you’re like, okay, if I do all these things, then he’s going to magically get better. If I just take care of my side of the street, then his will start to become amazing, clean, and beautiful too. And so now you’re taking on all his stuff.
Anne: Right? This is the exact opposite thing that you want to do in this situation. From what they say in 12 step for wives of addicts.
Kate: The problem is it masks it in a way that convinces you that you’re not taking on his stuff. You’re taking control of your life. You’re letting go of control of him. You need to sweep your side of the street. You need to let go of him, but in the process, it also leaves you unsafe. Because you’re basically putting your head in the sand and being like, I’m only focusing on what’s in front of me.
Michelle: Where we’re putting a Band-Aid on what we think is the problem, because codependency, that mindset, that attitude will never get to the root of the problem ever.
Anne: In an abuse situation, if you say, “Okay, I’m going to stay on my side of the street and focus on myself.” Just like they say in 12 step. And he’s still abusing you. You can’t see my side of the street out of abuse, you have to get off the street.
Kate: And part of your problem is that he’s flinging his crap all over you from his side of the street, so you can’t say you could be all clean on your side of the street while he’s flinging his crap onto you. It can’t work like that.
The Importance Of Emotional Safety Was Ignored
Anne: No, it absolutely cannot. So let’s talk about in your experience, what you found about codependency that was so damaging and so harmful, and also what you see with other women.
Michelle: For me, I think the part I saw most damaging is that I’m already in a sensitive, broken place. And had I not believed some things about myself, or had I decided I’m not going to trust my gut. I would have easily fallen into many of these ideas that would have taken me further away from healing. And it would have been a lot longer for me to get here.
So, that first, your life is unmanageable. And I thought, well gosh, yeah, it is unmanageable now. It totally is unmanageable now. And then that little voice would say, but it wasn’t before. And then, you know, here we come to humility. Well, I thought I was humble. You know, I thought I was doing these things. I thought I was being this person.
And now I’m questioning me and my connectedness. My counselor told me you have multiple personality disorder, you have codependency. I thought I’m out of my mind crazy, and I didn’t even know this about myself like it was making me question so much about my core self. I was trying to adopt them, because this is what people in my situation do, and I need to conform and fit in.
So that whole six months when I read and studied, and luckily I found you, and I was like what you’re saying resonates with me so much.
12 Step For Wives Of Addicts Didn’t Identify What Caused My Trauma Accurately
Michelle: You helped me reconnect with myself again, and realized that what I needed for healing had nothing to do with 12-step, codependency, and this 12-step for wives of addicts box. And that’s what I felt like. It was like, “You fit into this box. If you just do what it says in this box, you’re going to get better. And your husband’s going to get better in this box too.” And I just thought, no, no I’m not. And he’s not either. This will enable him to be worse. It would have kept me trapped.
Anne: Yeah, because we’re resisting abuse, but that blue book calls it “manipulative behaviors.” It was all over the place. I crossed the victim blaming phrase “manipulative behaviors” out all over in the blue book. And I wasn’t manipulating anyone. I was resisting abuse. I wanted to get to safety, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with me asking my husband if he viewed exploitative material. There was nothing wrong with me. Checking his internet history.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with doing any of those things that 12 step for wives of addicts say are wrong. Because you have the right to establish truth and safety for yourself. Those are things that you deserve. So this whole talk around, it’s a bad person, because you’re trying to figure out what he’s doing is crazy.
Michelle: Yeah, and it makes you feel insane, and you start to say, “Okay, I know this about my husband, and if I am just blind to it all, it’s gonna magically get better.” You were blind to it before, and it didn’t get better. So yeah, it is crazy.
12 Step For Wives Wasted 2 Years Where I Could Have Been Focused On My Emotional Safety
Kate: With my first husband, I used a spy program, and that’s the only way I found everything out. There’s no way he would have told me the truth. And I’m sitting here thinking, “Well, but if I hadn’t put a spy program on the computer, I wouldn’t have found anything, which means I probably would still be married to him. I would have zero clue. I probably would have an STD by now.”
Who knows? The possibilities are endless. “I think it’s sad there’s so much shame around the whole, like, don’t snoop. You can’t snoop. Don’t look on his phone. That’s just trying to control him. And I’m like, no, that’s for safety. I have the right to know what is going on in my home that puts my life in danger or my kids. It is a fundamental right to know about things in a relationship that will affect me.
Anne: Absolutely. If someone says you don’t have the right to ask or know the truth, it’s a form of victim silencing.
Michelle: And abuse and keeping them in that place.
Kate: We have a friend who was abused in every way possible by her husband. And even she said she started with the 12 step for wives of addicts and the codependency model.
And she’s like, “That kept me in the abuse even longer.” Because he was doing all these sorts of things, and she just stayed in danger even longer. I think it actually does that to a lot of women, but they don’t always realize it because they feel that empowerment of I’m changing my life. Like I am taking control. It leaves many women in a dangerous position that they don’t realize they’re in.
The Importance Of Emotional Safety Swept Under The Rug With 12 Step For Wives Of Addicts
Anne: Exactly. That’s why we always focus on safety here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Make sure you’re emotionally and psychologically safe. That is the key. I get off the street.
Kate: Yeah, I used to love the 12 step. I was like, there needs to be 12 steps at church. Everyone needs to do them. Like I loved them so much. And it wasn’t until I started researching more about how did Al Anon start? How did S-Anon start?
I started realizing, wait a minute. If you look at the S-Anon or any group for women, there’s Versus the addiction 12 steps. They’re the exact same wording, except for maybe one or two words. And that’s what I started having a problem with. Because there was a point in time where I was trying to make my own 12-steps, but trauma 12 steps. And I kept trying to do it. I couldn’t do it, because the 12 step for wives of addicts was so founded in the addiction stuff.
It’s like if I went to counseling for schizophrenia, even though I don’t have it, could I get some benefit out of it? Maybe, but do I have schizophrenia? No. And is there a possibility that I could get wrong information and it could hurt me? Yes.
Anne: Exactly, you guys would have died on my 12 step meeting when I was the moderator. I mean, I was like, no, that’s not true. Cross this part out. Don’t listen to that part. What did you guys find intriguing about some codependent thinking? Why did you stay for six months if you were like, I’m not going to even work on one step of 12 step.
The Harmful Effects Of Mislabeling Trauma
Michelle: 12-step made me feel that if I can control myself, I’m going to control what happens. Because I like to think that I can control stuff, this is something I already heard in a church cultural teaching. If I live my life a certain way, then I can expect these certain outcomes.
That’s what 12 step for wives of addicts did. If I do these things, my husband will fall in line too. And I can expect this happy, eternal, beautiful marriage. And it’s going to be this amazing thing. Okay. If I just do every one of those steps the way they say I need to do them.
Anne: Like if you obey the commandments, and if you get married to this type of person who “obeys the commandments” is worthy to marry you, then you guys will live a blissful eternal life together.
Michelle: Yeah, everything’s gonna work out. You’re gonna have three kids. They’re all gonna be beautiful. And then you’re gonna have the house up on the hill. Everybody looks at.
Anne: And then it falls apart, and you think, was it because I wasn’t obedient enough? And so the 12 step for wives has that similar feel. What about you, Kate? What did you find intriguing about it?
Kate: I love the order. It was like, I need to do something to help me. I want to feel better. And it’s a checklist that made me feel better. Because I felt like I was doing something proactive, the problem was that I was more focused on doing steps and checklists, instead of connecting to who I was and reconnecting back to my gut intuition that I lost through gaslighting.
How To Live Free From Your Husband’s Addiction Without Going To 12 Step
Anne: Yeah. That’s what the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is about, how to connect to yourself. So you can make your way to safety in a way that does not blame you for the situation.
Kate: When I learned how to reconnect back to myself. I don’t need to do this checklist of things. I don’t need it. That actually holds me back. It’s keeping me in a box. Whereas now, I can pull resources from tons of different stuff, or listen to the spirit and actually get inspiration on something. Instead of feeling like I need to follow these steps.
Another thing is going in order, I actually don’t like it now. Michelle actually asked me to be her sponsor, and I was like, uh, sure, but I’m not going to do it in the order it says. And I’m not gonna do it the way that usually most sponsors do it. And instead, I was just more helping her see like, it’s not a check box thing.
There are many women who like check boxes. They like so much structure. And I think the 12 Step for wives of addicts helps them feel better about that, but it doesn’t fix the problem.
Anne: Looking at the principles of 12 step for wives, it’s valuable, but not in an abuse situation. With abuse victims, rather than thinking, “Okay, well, there must be a reason this is happening because I didn’t do this or I didn’t do that.” The moment she realizes how strong, beautiful, and brave she is, that is the moment she can start to make her way out of the abuse.
12 Step For Wives Of Addicts OFten Keeps Women Stuck In Abuse
Anne: How can I help a victim of abuse? Tell her that she didn’t deserve that. That she’s brave and strong, that she can do it. You’re there for her and you support her. Not say, “Let’s look at your character defects and how you’re contributing to the problem.”
Michelle: You would never say that in any other situation. That’s what’s unique about us. If this was a burn victim, you wouldn’t tell them to stand by the flames.
Kate: Yeah. If it was an assault victim, you wouldn’t be like, so what did you do that caused it? What were you wearing that maybe attracted this person to do that to you? That’s not the right thing to say to someone.
Michelle: You’re in this place where you feel like you’re at the bottom of a pit and clawing your way. Like your life as you knew it, is no longer that way, and it won’t ever be that way again. You don’t trust yourself, so you grasp onto these things. Then I started, like, well, they’re telling me this, and I obviously messed up big time. I’m going to have to buy into this.
Kate: I feel like 12 step for wives of addicts might even make someone go backward. Take out all the connection you found in these meetings all the wonderful friends you found, the feeling you’re not alone. Take that away. What makes it good, if it is good for someone, is mostly the connection.
Michelle: Not only does it keep the spouse stuck, it also keeps the addict stuck, and it enables his abusive behavior.
Anne: Absolutely, they’re already narcissistic. Then, the 12 step tells them to focus even more on themselves.
Going To 12 Step Meant The Problem Was Partly My Fault (Which Is A Lie)
Anne: They need to think less about themselves. They need to be like, I have abusive thought patterns, and what I need to do now is focus on how my wife feels, and how my children feel. That is what I need to focus on.
Michelle: And the social impact of my choices, rather than all about me and me and me.
Kate: That’s why I don’t recommend it. There has to be a better way than sending someone to something that, yeah, might create more danger.
Anne: So, Kate, I see tons of therapists doing this, and it ticks me off. They say, I help women with betrayal trauma, but what they mean is codependency, because they don’t even know what betrayal trauma means. Tell me about your experience with that.
Kate: First off, codependency was created solely with the belief that the wife hurts the addict and exhibits the same behaviors as the addict. This means she must be an addict, which means she must also be diseased like the addict. This is why they created the 12 step for wives , because they’re like, “Hey these wives man, they’re just as bad as the addict.” We need to send them to the same treatment as the addict.”
And now it’s all sugarcoated. I read an article about how codependency doesn’t mean the same thing it used to mean. You know, it’s not as harsh. It’s more just a way to help yourself and heal all your flaws. It’s not though, it’s still rooted in the same thing. Stephanie Karnes, she was all about codependency. And then she came out and said, “Oh, I don’t like codependency. I never felt good with it, it’s all trauma now,” but they haven’t changed anything.
My Trauma Wasn’t Caused By Codependency
Kate: Nothing like Robert Weiss. He even is like, “Oh, I don’t like codependency either.” But then he like calls it some other name. It’s the exact same treatment as codependency, but he just calls it a different name. No, codependency and trauma are completely two different things. They are caused by two different things.
One is external and one is internal. Trauma is an injury. Something happened to you. Somebody did something to you. Whereas codependency, something is wrong with you. You have a disorder. You have a problem. A lot of people think, Oh, but they have a lot of the same behaviors. And so they read this list of all these codependency things.
They’re like, yeah, that fits, that fits. I’m like that. Yeah, I’m like that. But then when you really look at it, it’s like, So what if some of the behaviors are similar? That doesn’t mean they’re the same thing. Like I have similar behaviors as someone who is schizophrenic or bipolar, but guess what? I’m not, I have ADHD just because two symptoms are similar does not mean that they are the same thing or that they are caused by the same thing. They are completely different.
Anne: Yeah, and it feels like it’s stemming from misogyny because it’s a way of pathologizing and blaming women and trying to silence them and get them to like mind their own business and stay in their lane. so that the men can continue to do what they’re going to do without consequences.
The 12 Steps For Wives Of Addicts Was Basically Just A List Of Things My Misogynistic Husband Wanted Me To Do
Kate: Like back in the day, therapists were even taught that if a child came to them and said they were abused, that the child was making it up for attention. This was the belief that if a woman was assaulted, She must have done something to cause it. That it was her fault, or that she’s making it up.
They would believe, “Oh, she’s crazy. There’s something wrong with her.” Instead of looking at the fact that he’s the one making her crazy. He’s the one causing all the symptoms. He’s the one gaslighting her. So if she’s feeling crazy, or if she’s angry, that doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with her, it means he’s the one doing it.
Anne: Totally. And in the worst case scenario, he looks like nothing’s wrong with him. Like rather than saying she’s just as crazy as him, it’s “He is such a good guy. Like he is strong at church and he’s obedient. She just went off the deep end.” She needs 12 step for wives of addicts.
Kate: Yep. Here you got wives that are getting angry.
And of course they’re angry. They’re supposed to be angry. I feel like it’s kind of, even though I don’t like to use this analogy, because I’m not saying women are dogs. But let’s say you abused like an animal and starved it, and then you backed it into a corner, and then that animal bit you. Is that the animal’s fault? No, it’s the fact that you starved it and beat it. And I feel like that’s what happens.
Changing Label From Codependency To Some Euphemism Doesn’t Solve The Problem
Kate: So if a wife suddenly reacts and gets angry, it’s like, “Oh, what? What’s wrong with her? Something must be wrong with her.” And then they look at the abuser. And they’re like, “He’s the calm one. He’s the one that has his stuff together.” I see the opposite now. And I’m like, what did he do?
Anne: That’s how I am too, I just talked to clergy. And I said, “One sign is if she’s walking around church giving everybody the stink eye, and nobody likes her, and she seems super grumpy, and her husband seems so nice and outgoing, and he’s making friends with everybody, just consider for a minute that he’s abusive,” and that would never cross anybody’s mind. Women don’t become crazy pants for nothing.
Michelle: Exactly, and I want to add something to this, because I think it’s important. This idea of, “I’m just going to change the label. I’m going to say it’s trauma and not codependency.” It does become sneaky, and it becomes hard to see, which adds to the abusiveness, I think.
Because then it’s so subtle, and it moves in, and some things are, Oh, you just found out three weeks ago, but we’re supposed to forgive. So, can we just forgive him? Can we work on starting to trust each other now? Dealing with trauma is so much more complicated than dealing with codependency.
If we actually have to start healing a serious injury in a wound, it’s going to be different for everybody. It requires more knowledge and understanding, instead of looking at as, okay, we’re going to treat this sick patient because they have deep rooted problems. Okay. We’re going to help somebody who has been a victim and not known it for so long.
Realizing I Can’t Do Anything To Stop Him From Using Exploitative material Was Crazy Painful
Michelle: That is harder to deal with. And it’s like these little things that people are trying to help, but it’s not helpful. It is putting it on the person that has nothing to do with it.
Anne: Yeah, I see that all the time. The pressure for victims to “forgive” the perpetrator, to reconcile. It puts her in danger. And she feels uneasy about it, because she’s still resisting the abuse. So rather than pressuring and manipulating a victim to say, Hey, you should be okay with this on some level. And go to 12 step for wives of addicts.
We need to say you’re a victim of abuse, and our first order of business is to ensure the abuse has stopped or you’ve been separated from it. Cause if I forgive him, it’s not going to stop him from abusing me.
Michelle: That again stems back to something that you pointed out that’s important. It’s because we live in a patriarchal society and if we’re talking about like church, ecclesiastical leaders. The thing that should be done first to protect the abuse victim is the last thing done.
Because she’s just a crazy woman, and we need to protect the men. We’re going to shirk off as much responsibility from him onto her. It’s a good boy’s club. They view women on such a lower plane than the men. And that’s the root of this.
Kate: Many times women are like, yeah, but my behaviors seem unhealthy. They’re not helping me. There has to be something wrong with me. So what is wrong with me? I’m not codependent. What is wrong with me? I kind of have to remind them. I’m like, think about it this way, all your qualities, what people say are enabling.
12 Step For Wives Of Addicts Doesn’t Offer Any Safety
Kate: Imagine if your husband was wonderful, honest, and not an addict, just imagine if he was a healthy person. Would any of your behaviors be bad? Would you care too much about what he’s thinking? No, you would actually be in a healthy marriage. So just because your husband is an addict does not mean you’re loving or too loving behaviors.
It doesn’t mean they’re bad. They’re actually healthy. It’s actually one of the reasons probably why the addict wanted to marry you is because you are a good person. Just because he’s an addict doesn’t mean those behaviors are suddenly bad.
Anne: And for 12 step for wives of addicts or a therapist or anyone to say that you need to be safe enough so he can tell the truth, or that you need to stop your controlling and manipulative behaviors, because if you stopped, he wouldn’t do this. That’s not true. He was doing it before, so no. We could go through every one of those things and say no, no, no.
Kate: Yeah, think about it this way. If someone was drowning and they started freaking out and thrashing around, would you ever think their behavior was unhealthy or not normal? No, they’re drowning. Now imagine if the person pushed in them they love the most, and then actually held them under the water sometimes, like, would you think, “Wow, why are they thrashing around? Why are they acting like that?”
No, their life is in danger. So we need to stop looking at these behaviors as unhealthy, and as this is what happens when your life is threatened and they’re not bad.
Michelle: Yeah, those are protective behaviors where there’s no one else who’s around to protect you. You have to protect yourself.
Getting Help For Wives Without Going To 12 Step
Anne: Yeah, it took me a long time to figure out how to keep myself safe. My ex abused me for eight years post divorce. It was very similar to the abuse before we got divorced, because divorce doesn’t solve an abuse problem. And so I studied and figured out the principles of safety. And I figured out safety strategies, then I put those in the Living Free Workshop.
If you’re listening and you’re like, well, what should I do? A good place to start is the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
It’s just really difficult for people who have not been through it to wrap their heads around the fact that women can do everything right. And not understand they’re being abused. And continue to be abused, even when they’re going to therapy, even when they’re getting help. Unless you get the right information. There is nothing that would stop you from being abused if you don’t recognize it for what it is.
Kate: Nothing. And the odds are against all women, because you could become the healthiest person in the world, and guess what? 80 percent of men still look at it? So, the odds are against all women. So just because somebody marries an addict, they’re a liar, and they abuse you, doesn’t mean you had something to do with it.
Michelle: You didn’t attract it
Kate: No, it wasn’t because you’re abused when you’re younger, because one of three women were abused. That doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you that somehow you attracted this man. It’s like no, the odds are against you, and these men seek women out, not that women attract them.
Answers For Wives of Addicts
Anne: Yeah, all that is true. And when we say that 12 step for wives of addicts doesn’t help, the air kind of leaves the room because women are like, so what can I do? Because they’re looking for answers. That’s why they gravitate sometimes toward codependency and 12 step for wives of addicts, even though that model harms them. Because women want to know that they can enjoy the fruits of their own labor.
So again, if you’re thinking this, the Living Free Workshop is a great place to start, because there’s no victim blaming in it. It will teach you some safety strategies that will help you separate yourself from that type of abuse. I’m so grateful that I’ve learned what I’ve learned through the process of going through this, so that I can share it with other people. Kate and Michelle, thank you so much for spending time talking with me today about this.
How To Recover From Betrayal Trauma – Lynea’s Story
Dec 19, 2023
In the early days of her marriage, Lynea attributed problems with her husband to normal relationship challenges or her husband’s culture. Lynea finally realized she needed help to recover from betrayal trauma.
The first step to recover from betrayal trauma is to see if you’re actually experiencing emotional abuse. See if these examples of emotional abuse apply to you.
Recovery from betrayal trauma is possible. If you need support, we’d love to see you in a BTR.ORG Group Session TODAY.
Transcript: How To Recover From Betrayal Trauma
Anne: Welcome Lynea. Let’s start at the beginning of your story. How would you define your husband’s behavior at first? Did you give any reasons for his behavior?
Lynea: We met at university and we we’re both quite young. It was my first real relationship after high school. I just was excited about going to university, we met through a mutual friend and at first I didn’t really see any behavior that was really off.
I didn’t really recognize anything that was different. He was very kind. He acted very thoughtful, made it a point to keep in communication with me regularly, so I didn’t really see anything that was off. I was young too. I was 18 or 19 years old. So
Anne: Even if you could go back in time, you might see something, it’s not anything that you could remember from your perspective now?
What’s Causing The Betrayal Trauma?
Lynea: As the relationship went on, I just wasn’t happy. No matter what I had told him, I felt like even though his behavior might change for some time, and sometimes for long periods of time. It didn’t really matter.
I would tell him something, Hey, this is how you’re hurting me. This isn’t how I’d like you showing up. He would still continue to do the behavior.
Anne: You didn’t recognize it right when you were dating, but when you did start seeing it, what things were you like, Hey, that’s not okay with me. What reasons did you give for those behaviors before you knew more?
Lynea: Just talking about normal things of running a household, keeping things tidy. It always ended up in an argument. I felt that a lot of the load would always be on me to make things happen with groceries, cooking, finances, you name it.
I was always the one to do those types of things and no matter how many conversations I had with him. It seemed like it would always go back to that same thing where he would just forget about the conversation that we had and continue doing his old behavior.
Anne: I want to say “forget about the conversation.” Right. They conveniently forget about it when it suits their purposes. It was mainly about domestic labor then?
Financial Betrayal Causes Trauma
Lynea: Then going out to spending money. He liked to go out and party with his friends and that type of thing. I just was trying to be more conservative when it came to finances. That would always cause an argument too,
Anne: A lot of arguing that you couldn’t quite get a handle on it sounds like.
Lynea: Yeah, it just left me very confused. I just didn’t understand the dynamics of their relationship and I thought for the longest time that was me. Quite honestly, I thought I was the problem.
Anne: So at this time, are you kind of chalking it up to maybe miscommunication? What are you thinking is the Cause
Lynea: He is from another country and I thought that originally maybe it was just very hard for him to assimilate into rural Midwest small university. I thought he was having difficulties with that.
He didn’t seem like he was very happy most of the time and I felt like a lot of the times it was maybe me.
Anne: When you say I thought it was maybe me, was it because he was telling you it was you? A lot of the times we’d have the conversations in order to try to solve something and then he would start telling me that I just complained too much.
When He Blames You For Problems
Lynea: I’m not happy. It escalated over the years too. He called me names and I wondered am I the crazy one?
Anne: Did you recognize at the time the pattern of his exploitation that the reason he was doing this was so that you would do most of the domestic labor?
Lynea: I had no clue. After 24 years together I had no idea.
Anne: Me saying that right now. Are you like, oh, or did you recognize that at some point?
Lynea: I recognized at some point that he just didn’t want to take accountability or responsibility for things. If he did, it was when it was convenient or when things got so bad where he could recognize that I’ve hit my limit, then he would change for a while and there would be better behavior for sometimes several months.
https://youtube.com/shorts/qCPG-fISzBg
Anne: He was capable of doing it, he just didn’t want to. I think that’s really interesting to bring up because they are capable of doing it. I think they’re just not genuinely that type of a person. So they’re play-acting kindness or they’re playacting equality or they’re play acting genuine empathy and compassion.
If you’re not actually like that, if you’re putting on a show, it would get really exhausting after a while because you’re basically acting all the time and even though you know how to do it, it’s not who you are. I think that’s why they can do it for a while, but then they just get tired.
It’s also why the mask comes off when they are tired or on a trip for example, when it’s a little more stressful or they don’t have their regular coping mechanisms around.
Lynea: Yes, exactly. When he would get a little bit pressed when things weren’t comfortable for him, you could definitely see his reactions more quickly. He would be easily angered, just irritated and just not really a fun person to be around in the house. There’s always this vibe. It just didn’t feel good. It wasn’t pleasant.
Anne: What sort of things did you try in the relationship? Like therapy?
Lynea: He never was open to it. I wanted to go to couples therapy or marital counseling after we got married. He never would do it. He didn’t want to do it, so I was okay with that. I grew up in the church, so I think that this kind of had a big reason for why I was so loyal and so I stayed with him for so long to be honest with you.
I also thought patterns of where he would change for some time. He was capable of it, so it just made sense to me, well, maybe I’m the one. I was a very shy girl. I didn’t have much confidence. I’m completely different now than who I was when I met him.
I was very shy, naive for sure, and I wasn’t very good at speaking to other people. I felt like I didn’t have a lot of relationship skills and so I thought really truly that it was me, I thought that I was having a hard time communicating.
I thought that he just didn’t understand and that it was this man woman dynamic that I just was clueless about. So I read a lot of books. I eventually did get some therapy sessions. I was always in the pursuit of working on myself. What can I do to make things better?
Anne: Most likely it was because he’d led you to believe that you were the problem. I mean, part of it is that the abuse is the convincing of the victim, that it’s not him, but that it’s her. When did you start to recognize that this stuff wasn’t working like therapy and your self-help and stuff like that?
Lynea: Once we graduated college, we moved back into the area where I’m from. We didn’t stay there for very long. We were just really working hard on trying to find careers in our degrees and I got a job in a big city. He started a business and so we were just really working hard for several years on my career.
His business, we actually did have a pretty good dynamic working together, oddly enough. We did that together for at least five or six years. We had a brick and mortar business.
Anne: So you were in business together.
Lynea: He always wants to be perceived differently from other people. So when he’s around other people, he’s great. There are no problems. Because I worked so closely with him, I saw how he interacted with other people, so I knew that he could be a certain way and I thought maybe this was truly who he was. There again, I am the common denominator here, so I must be the problem.
Recovering From Betrayal Trauma Is Hard When You Share A Life
Anne: When did you start to recognize that it wasn’t you, that maybe it was him? Were you aware of pornography use or affairs or anything like that?
Lynea: I knew that when he would go visit his friends, they would go to strip clubs and stuff. I knew that one of his friends was into some things even though he was married that I don’t approve of. I told him this, he knew how I felt with prostitution, but I never thought that he would do any of that.
Because he was always very adamant against it and because he knows the problems that it causes in family relationships because he’s gone through some hard things. So I trusted him.
Anne: That’s what he would tell you. Did you ever find out that he had participated in prostitution?
Lynea: No, I’ve never found that out, no.
Anne: So he may have or he may not have. You just never got definitive information about
Lynea: That. Exactly. It wouldn’t surprise me knowing what I know now if he did participate.
Anne: Why wouldn’t it surprise you? Knowing what you know now? What do you know? That might be a clue.
When It Doesn’t Work To Decide To Make It Work
Lynea: In 2018, we decided to move back to his country in Europe to be closer to his family and for him to be also able to help his father with businesses. Our business wasn’t doing so well back in the states, so I invited him to think about doing that because he just seemed like he was very unhappy at the time.
I think that it might’ve been a good change. He had been away from his family for many, many years and I thought just this might be something that he needs. Maybe a fresh start would help him. That’s what we did. We moved in June of 2018.
Anne: Did it help?
Lynea: No, it got worse.
Anne: Sorry, I think if it would’ve helped, you wouldn’t be here, right?
Lynea: Well, in one way it helped because it stirred the hornet’s nest, if you will. Remember we were talking about under stress, somebody acts a certain way. Well, this really was out of his comfort zone, and I realized quite quickly the dynamics of the family wasn’t healthy.
He was having a very difficult time working with his father, and so I chalked up a lot of his habits going out, partying. I had a conversation with him because I wasn’t getting any younger and I always wanted to have children.
Temporary Behavioral Changes That Prolong Betrayal Trauma
He always kept delaying it, postponing it. “Now isn’t the right time.” I finally had a very good conversation with him about what I was envisioning for my future, what I wanted in a partner, what I wanted in a marriage. If this isn’t what he wanted, then no problem. We can split ways, but now’s the time. He said, no, that’s not what I want. His behavior changed for a while.
Anne: So he said, no, I don’t want to change things. I want to stay with you.
Lynea: And then I don’t think it was too much longer after that than I conceived.
Anne: So you finally are able to get pregnant, which is something that you’ve wanted for a long time. And before you do that, he seems supportive and he seems like he’s on the same page as you. Then what happens?
Lynea: And then he goes back into his old pattern of behavior. He’s still going out partying, just generally not helping out with anything. I had made a commitment to myself after moving to this new country that it was a great opportunity for a fresh start. I’m going to work on being the person that I want to work on because so much of my life, I was just doing everything for him and I don’t know how I have the strength to do it.
Become The Woman I Want To Become
Looking back, I really don’t, but I just decided I’m going to go and play full out and become the woman that I want to become no matter what. That’s what I did. I found my own circle of friends, a new church. I found the support that I needed, the friendships that I needed, and I just really focused on that.
Fast forward, my son was born at the end of December in 2019 and the behavior just got worse. It got a lot worse. I was happier when he didn’t come home. He was traveling a lot for business. I gave him my support so that he could travel and learn a new skill.
I actually had peace in the house for once. It just really got me thinking it’s much worse, much, much worse than I originally had thought.
Anne: Why do you think it took him being away, and we find this with most victims of emotional and psychological abuse that it’s very difficult to see how bad it is while you’re still in constant contact with them while they’re still living in the house. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that being away from him helped you see it, and if so, why do you think that was?
Experience Peace And Clarity With Support
Lynea: Yeah, I totally think that being away from him helped me see it because thinking back to when we had moved to the big city and we were doing our business together. It was like the same kind of routine almost every day.
We were working a lot and then we would come home and it’d be the same dynamic and I like to have people over at the house. He never wanted to do that. Looking back, I see that he really isolated me from my friends. He most certainly isolated me from my family on purpose, and that’s been very difficult.
Now a relationship with my family is better than it’s ever been, and we are able to really discuss what has happened over the years and it makes complete sense now. It really does.
Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our specialty is psychological and emotional abuse, which is horrific anything related to recovery after betrayal. Many women who’ve had physical violence say that definitely the emotional and psychological stuff was much more difficult to recover from, but just from your perspective, blocking doors or breaking things, did any of that happen?
Lynea: When we were younger, I remember some of those things happening and he was always into TaeKwonDo and I got into doing it as well. He was quite good. He got up to be a second degree black belt, and I remember that we would spar together and I just feel like he was overly aggressive on purpose.
Betrayed By Physical Intimidation
So there was an excuse as to why, but it was just that kind of thing. There was an instance, here, after I had my son that he was aggressive and he scared me and I went to block him and he said that I hit his sunglasses and he busted his eyebrow. I don’t see how that’s possible.
Anne: Well, if you’re an awesome at TaeKwonDo, maybe! I’m kidding.
Lynea: Yeah, exactly
Anne: That. Oh, we’re just wrestling around, but they do really have the intent to hurt you or are they kind of bumping you all the time or stuff like that? That’s covert physical abuse where they are sort of pushing you around and throwing their weight around. To let you know, “Hey, I could hurt you.”
Lynea: I do remember that, and I thought it was always his way of when you’re teenagers or whatever, and it’s kind of like the childish boy way of getting the girl’s attention. I just thought he never grew up in that way. I always told him that I really don’t appreciate that. We’re adults. Touch me nicely. I didn’t really understand that.
Anne: In addition to you getting therapy and trying to talk him into it, which he didn’t want to do, was there anything else that he tried or you tried maybe 12 steps or addiction recovery or anything like that?
He Never Wanted To Work On His Issues
Lynea): No, he never wanted to work on his issues. He said it wasn’t a problem, but it was a problem because it was continually coming up in our conversations.
Anne: It’s interesting to me that he was like a health coach, but not healthy at all. Did that strike you at the time as maybe hypocritical or ironic or was he just so good at manipulation?
Lynea: We had conversations about that. I’m like, physically, you’re in amazing shape. You play sports, go to the gym every day and you eat well. Why continue having some of these bad habits that just don’t line up? It doesn’t really make sense if the puzzle pieces don’t fit. He didn’t like to have those conversations.
Anne: Talk about how you recognized it was him and then maybe what led you to seek safety
Lynea: The last couple of years before we moved here to Europe. I think that’s when my journey really started of being aware that no matter what I do, no matter how well I behave or how I change things up or how I switch things around or whatever I do, it’s never enough.
It’s never right. It never changes anything, and so I think that’s what gave me the courage just to live for myself. To do what I want to do and seek the things that I’m passionate about, create my circle of friends. Just moving here gave me that ability to do that and I’m so glad that I did because it really opened my eyes. I did have what I call the day of discovery. I was back home.
Shocking Discovery Of Infidelity, The Pain Of Betrayal Trauma
Anne: When you say back home, do you mean in the States?
Lynea: Yes. We were traveling, my son and I went back home to visit my family for Thanksgiving. We had been there for a while and it was early November. I remember getting up and I was checking my email and I got two emails from somebody that I still to this day don’t know.
They were just letting me know that my husband’s been cheating on me nearly the entire time that we had moved to Europe. I was trying to hide it from my parents because there wasn’t a very good relationship there with them because of everything that’s happened.
I was just kind of in shock really. So I called him up and of course he denied it at first and then about an hour later he actually called me back and he confessed to it, but he said that it wasn’t anybody in particular. They’re not important. He wants to work on our marriage. He’s so sorry.
Anne: It wasn’t anyone in particular, meaning he was having affairs with multiple people or just the one person he was having an affair with for a long time was just no one special.
Lynea: I said, it’s just one person. He is like, no, not just one person. He just was very general about it.
Anne: When I said earlier, did you know of any affairs or anything? Was it just because at that point in the story you didn’t know?
Understanding The Full Extent Of Betrayal Trauma
Lynea: Exactly that point in the story? I didn’t know. No, I had no idea. This was my big eyeopener and then things just started clicking into place
Anne: And What do you mean by clicking into place?
Lynea: The blindfold had been removed from my eyes and I saw him for what he was. I just understood this is the reality of it, and I knew that I was going to really need some help navigating this because I had a one-year-old son living in a foreign country, zero family here.
That’s when I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Oh my goodness, that was a game changer for me. I know that I wouldn’t be the person I am sitting here today feeling the way I’m feeling, being able to share without the support of BTR. The first time, I was just searching online.
I remember I got a therapist from somewhere else online. I did a couple of sessions and I’m just like, Nope, she’s not getting it.
I needed somebody that understood betrayal trauma because it’s complicated, it’s complex. When I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and I remember reading through the landing page. I just was like, this is it.
Finding Support & Validation Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions
I attended a Betrayal Trauma Group Session for the first time and I was early. I’m always early to everything. When I joined the group session, I was thinking to myself, okay, there’s only going to be five or six other women joining this session at most.
More and more women just kept joining the session and I was seeing all of these faces pop up and these windows. Well over 20 women, with every woman, I had some understanding and it was resonating with me in some way. I just remember feeling so grateful that I’m not crazy.
For years, I felt crazy. For years I thoughtI had mental illness, depression, that I was the problem, and so I couldn’t get enough. I read a lot of the books that you guys offered on your website, I downloaded your book from Amazon as well. Everything was just making so much sense and I had never heard of anything like this.
I did one or two Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions then I realized I really need to get some one-on-one coaching. So I tried BTR.ORG Individual Sessions. Then I paired up with one of your amazing coaches and that was just such a wonderful experience. It just really helped me so much with what I was navigating.
Necessity Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions
Going through divorce, trying to co-parent and also child custody. It was so valuable, so valuable because I didn’t have to sit there and try to explain to somebody that has never experienced any of this before. She knew exactly what I was talking about. She just had really good advice about how to navigate a really difficult time in my life.
Anne: I’m so happy to hear that. That is our goal here is to really help women. Because I experienced it and everyone who works at Betrayal Trauma Recovery experienced going to a therapist and then kind of educating the therapist, so we don’t get help.
We’re trying to help them help us, and that doesn’t actually make sense. So many people just don’t see this from an abuse perspective. When you got that information that he was abusive, how did you feel about that at first? Did it hit like, oh, this is what it is, or did it take a minute? Were you like, I don’t know about that. Can you talk about your journey to realizing that he’s abusive?
Lynea: I went back and forth for a long time and I’m just going to be completely honest with you. There’s even days that I have recently that I questioned that maybe it was still me, as crazy as that sounds. It is a long journey to recover from betrayal trauma.
Accepting Reality Of What Caused Betrayal Trauma
Anne: Doesn’t sound crazy. All of us have been through that.
Lynea: All the truth is there. Everything’s out there on his behavior, everything over the years and it’s like I always have to go back, no, this is what you did. This is what you tried. This is your thought process behind the things. Remember the feelings. It takes a long time to get out of that cycle of thought or the abuse pattern. It’s been a journey.
Anne: Before we talk about this, I want to say that at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re not pro divorce, so whatever any of our clients feels like is the right thing for them. We meet them where they’re at. Your emotional safety and your psychological safety is our top priority. This is why I created The Living Free Workshop.
You decided that divorce is the best option and let him know. I’m guessing he didn’t react to that.
Lynea: I was open to giving it another chance. Remember I was visiting the United States and then I came back right before Christmas to Europe. Because of the conversations that we had that we would work on it and he needed to go see a psychologist or a therapist of his choice. My ultimatum, attending therapy, he only went to two sessions.
He said, I really like the person that I’m seeing, but that doesn’t work for me. I said, okay, well, that’s where we are. Then I think divorce is the best option. He went on to say that, and also, I don’t believe in marriage anymore.
Betrayal Trauma: Understanding Their Exploitative Character
I said, well, there’s not much that we can debate with that. If you don’t believe in marriage anymore, then you don’t believe in marriage. I guess I don’t know really what to say to that. Then he proceeded to ask me, my jaw about hit the floor, if I would consider having an open marriage.
I said, no, no, that’s definitely not for me. He knows my values. He knows how I feel about marriage, so I said, no. I know that I’d let him know two times, if not three times I’m going to file for divorce. When he actually got served the papers, was furious.
Anne: I find that to be so awful and scary, but also very interesting that generally speaking, they don’t want to get divorced. Which leads me to the conclusion that for them it’s about exploitation. They don’t necessarily want a marriage, but they enjoy the fruits of a partner, someone who will do things for them, childcare or meals.
It’s more of an exploitative relationship where they realize you’re a powerful, awesome person. There’s things that being associated with you bring into their lives, and so they don’t want to lose that association. They don’t want to lose the access to all of your talents and your passion and all the good things about you.
Recover From Betrayal Trauma By Moving Forward
They just don’t want to participate in a relationship, but they want to be able to exploit you. That’s the only thing I’ve been able to figure out because if they don’t want to be married, why do they want to be married? It’s hard to wrap our heads around that.
Lynea: Yeah, it really truly is, and that’s really been one of the hardest things for me to realize that I really don’t think he ever loved me. It is a huge part of recovering from betrayal trauma. He discarded me after being with him for over two decades. That’s crazy, and I just had his son and through my pregnancy and delivery and all of that, that’s a whole other story that we could go into on the treatment.
It’s ugly and it’s very, very painful, and that’s why I just, I want to share my story and let people know. Let women know that they’re not alone and it’s not them. They’re not crazy. There’s no shame in being deceived.
Anne: Well, exploiters use your strengths against you. You’re a compassionate, caring person and they use that to their own benefit. They’re not part of a team and it’s hard to realize like, oh, I’ve never been part of a team. It’s not because you’re not absolutely amazing and worthy of love.
They’re incapable of that because their character is one of exploitation. They have an exploitative character and they also think that that’s sort of what a relationship is.
Reflecting On How To Recover From Betrayal Trauma
Lynea: Exactly, yeah. Instead of like a partnership. I felt a lot of times that I was his competition, but I thought, well, his personality type is he’s always in it to win it. Whether it’s or just being good at school. That was his strength, so I would always kind of back off also as being his wife.
Oddly enough, I was thinking about this the other day and I’m just thankful and grateful that I could laugh about this now, but guess who’s married already? Yeah, of course. The guy who’s not into marriage.
Anne: He feels uncomfortable when he is not able to exploit someone.
Lynea: Yeah. That’s a miserable way to live.
Anne: I want all women to know this. They have a really hard time being alone because their power does not come from personal responsibility. Their quote unquote, power comes from exploiting us. Then if you think about it, who is the powerful one?
An abuser will always lead you to believe that you’re going to be nothing without him, but it’s the opposite. He is going to be nothing without us because he has nothing, because all the power that he has is stuff that he exploited from someone else. Is he going to actually clean the bathroom?
Gratitude For Growth On The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Journey
Lynea: Yeah, I doubt it because
Anne: He would be a powerful person if he had personal responsibility if he cleaned the bathroom, but he doesn’t. I want to always point out to women that makes him powerless.
Lynea: Just trying to co-parent with him, I laugh about co-parenting because it’s nothing of the sort, but he’s still trying to shame me. He brings up things of the past, hints around that I’m a bad mom trying to get me back into that crazy making cycle.
Anne: You’ll get stronger and stronger. So Lynea, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us about how to recover from betrayal trauma, today and share your story. We really appreciate it.
Lynea: My pleasure. Thank you for all that you do.
3 Powerful Ways to Help Your Abused Daughter
Dec 12, 2023
If your daughter confided in you that her husband uses emotional or psychological abuse, here are 3 ways to help your abused daughter.
If you or anyone you know needs support, our daily online support group helps women experiencing emotional and psychological abuse. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
1. Help Your Abused Daughter Recognize Emotional & Psychological Abuse
2. Help Your Abused Daughter By Giving Her 100% Unquestioning Support
Abandon the “it takes two to tango” mentality, and invest your time and energy into supporting your daughter. This means that you are NOT:
Bailing him out of jail if he’s arrested.
Meeting the abuser one-on-one for heart-to-heart talks about how he can change or win your daughter back.
Trying to convince your daughter to consider salvaging the marriage.
Fraternizing with the abuser’s family and friends – Your energy is best spent on your daughter (and her children).
When your daughter has experienced psychological and emotional abuse, financial control, sexual coercion and betrayal, she is experiencing significant trauma.
As you become more trauma-informed and educated about abuse, you’ll naturally empathize with her, be more sensitive to her trauma, and help your abused daughter. If you want her to feel safe with you, learn what you need to learn from The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.
3. Know That She Is Capable & Strong, She Just Needs Help Until She Heals
Your daughter may feel like her entire world is crumbling around her. The last thing that she needs right now is to feel like she has to earn your love, respect, and support. You need to help your abused daughter
Offer her:
A place to live
Financial resources so that she can afford a good attorney
Your unequivocal support
A listening ear should she ever need to vent or confide in someone
Your absolute belief in her story, without any need for proof
Be willing to make a safety plan if the abuser tries to harm her or the children
Your willingness to testify on her behalf
Your support can be the difference between your daughter feeling completely alone in a terrifying world – and feeling loved, safe, and resilient. Be the parent your daughter deserves. Help your abused daughter.
Transcription: How To Help Your Abused Daughter – 3 Things To Know
Anne: I have a special guest today. It’s my dad. A man named Jim reached out and asked if he could talk to my dad. So I thought, hey, let’s just do a podcast. Jim is the dad of a victim. Rosie has three young children. And she and her three young children live with Jim and his wife right now, as she heals from the emotional and psychological injuries she received from the years of her husband’s emotional and psychological abuse. Welcome Jim and Dad.
The Turning Point, Trying To Figure Out What Is Happening
Anne: So Jim, do you want to just start with what’s going on with your daughter?
Jim: Sure. She had married about 10 years ago, and has three children. The youngest one is a year and a half. So about the time she had the baby, she came to me with a little experience when the baby was about a week old.
She asked for some newborn photos or something, and her husband basically just came unglued on her to the point that she was shaking. It was the turning point for her. She came to me and told me and my wife about that. I think it was a turning point for us to basically tell her, “You do what you need to do, we’ve got your back.”
Anne: Did you understand that as abuse at the time, how to help your abused daughter? Or did you just think he was being a jerk? What did you think?
1. Help Your Daughter Recognize Emotional & Psychological Abuse
Jim: You know, I’m not sure when the words came, because certain things happened that helped give us vocabulary. The term that came to my daughter first was verbal abuse.
She looked it up and started saying, “Well, I’m getting a lot of that.” She was concerned about their marriage for at least a year before that. In hindsight, even much before that, but particularly enough that she wanted to do something, and she started asking him about it. And toward the time of the baby, did some marriage counseling, which worsened things.
And he suggested she was suffering from postpartum depression at some point. So this would have been after that experience I described. She went to a counselor who was recommended. And the counselor specialized in postpartum depression. And in the first session, she said, “You have no postpartum depression. I think you’re emotionally and psychologically abused.”
And that helped confirm, and I can’t remember the order of things. Obviously, she told us her experience before the counselor. But a few things just started to lock together and give her the ability to describe what was happening. In hindsight, they were there all along, even from the beginning of their marriage. When you’re trying to support your kids in their marriage, you’re not like looking for those sort of things to help your abused daughter.
It’s kind of a goodwill attitude that you have towards it. And I must mention that he is very, very skilled at reading people and manipulating them. It turns out, he’s quite personable and funny, and that was the big thing for me. This is how narcissists groom victims. How can somebody be so friendly and personable to everybody else and treat his wife so badly?
Her Personality Isn’t To Blame When You Need To Help Your Daughter In A Bad Relationship
Anne: Can you tell us about Rosie’s personality?
Jim: She is fairly quiet, contrasted with some of her other siblings. She was always the type that interacted with friends, but not with adults so much. Whereas a lot of her siblings enjoyed adult conversation with adults. And so she was different that way, just a little less assertive. I guess in her mind, marrying somebody who was outgoing was supposedly good for social things. The opposite was true.
Anne: The reason I ask that is because as my dad talks, my personality is assertive, like extremely. Many people, when I started talking about it, were like. Well, you couldn’t get abused because of your personality. You’re going to confront everything. That was one of the things that was hard. I think for my family to process. That’s helpful to know where she was coming from when you’re helping your daughter in an abusive relationship.
When she initially said that, was it easy to wrap your head around? Were you like, oh yes, like did light bulbs come on? Or was there a time or a moment where you’re like, oh, I’m not sure if she’s processing this correctly, from your point of view?
Jim: A little of both. I mean, I don’t think I was surprised because I’ve observed all along. But my initial reaction is to try to fix things. That’s how my personality is. And so it’s like, well, this great marriage book here, this great marriage book here.
There Are Nuances To The Four Horsemen Of A Marriage In Crisis
Jim: And one in particular Gottman’s book, where he talks about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it.
Anne: Yeah
Bob: Yes, we are.
Jim: We’ve discussed that with her. She’s like, he does all those, I’m defensive, but he does all of them. And so it’s like, it’s hard to come to terms at first that your daughter’s marriage is going to fail. It feels like a big letdown. And so when you bounce it against the four horsemen, and you’re like, there’s got to be some way out of this. But the more you look at it, the more you see that he isn’t owning it much, so not much chance of change.
Anne: The interesting thing about Gottman is that he doesn’t use the word abuse. He says criticism, stonewalling but he doesn’t say this is psychological abuse, which it could or could not be. It depends. Like a victim, for example, she might be trying to protect herself. These are some powerful truths about emotional abuse.
And so she decides she’s going to stop talking, which could be “stonewalling,” but she’s doing it to protect herself. Whereas an abuser with an abusive character is going to stonewall in order to control. And so because the goal is different, it’s not necessarily abuse. I think that’s interesting to help your abused daughter, and people have a hard time knowing the nuances of victim and perpetrator relationships.
how can I help my abused daughter
The Impact Of Words Is Increased When Helping Your Abused Daughter
Jim: Yeah, the words are important, because abuse words get people’s attention. In fact, when she left, it wasn’t her idea to leave. She asked him to leave for a while, do a separation. And she basically used the word emotionally abusing. Well, that word sets people off if they don’t like being accused of that. And, you know, within a day, it changed his mind from thinking he might leave to, no, I ain’t going anywhere. And he never left the house.
Anne: Mine vacillated between I’m leaving. I hate it here. You’re terrible to me, and I’m not going anywhere. Did you know or were you aware of any pornography use?
Jim: No, and that’s the puzzling thing, because he’s adamantly denied that. If he’s used it, he’s been able to keep it very secret. There are telltale signs of lots of time on the computer, et cetera, et cetera, but no admission and no, no real evidence.
Bob: So how did he eventually leave the house or is he still in the house?
Jim: He’s still in the house.
Anne: Is the divorce final?
Jim: No, yeah, after a year, we finally got to some temporary orders that were basically negotiated outside. The judge’s chambers, I think, because both attorneys were afraid to go in there. I don’t know. That’s what it felt like.
Realities Of Legal, Financial, & Custody Difficulties
Anne: Unfortunately, the court system does not protect victims, and actually makes it much more difficult for victims. So I’m really sorry that that’s happening. So he’s still in the home and your daughter lives with you. And what’s the custody arrangement?
Jim: The temporary is 50-50 right now. The attorney is convinced that’s what they would give no matter what.
Anne: Did your daughter work before this?
Jim: Part time.
Anne: Okay, and what is the soon to be ex’s financial situation? Does he make really good money? Is he the average person?
Jim: Just a little above average, I would say.
https://youtube.com/shorts/f42gMRWCYd8
Anne: Let’s talk about whatever you want now. Do you have questions to help your abused daughter, Jim?
Jim: Do you, I mean, in some ways, in thinking about this this morning. I thought, you’ve done a lot of these podcasts, and I’m thinking that many of your listeners might like to hear you and your dad talk a little bit, so if I could throw out some questions.
I think I listened to at least one of yours where you told the story about a protective order or something that happened, such that it created space where you figured this all out. And then I guess the question is, how did you approach your family about it? And how did that go over?
A Violent Outburst: The Breaking Point
Anne: Well, I have the privilege of a very awesome family. My parents are amazing. They’re really involved, but not annoyingly involved, and also not overly involved. And so they were always here at the right moments and helpful. Do you want to tell the story from your perspective of the day he punched the wall in the therapy appointment?
Bob: Yeah, that’d be a good place to start.
Anne: So my ex and I were in a therapy appointment, a couple therapy appointment. It was online. And both of my parents were here to tend the kids, and they were upstairs, and we were downstairs. During the therapy appointment, he started pounding on the desk and like yelling in my face and spitting, and he broke the door and put two holes in the wall. And during this therapy appointment, this is after seven years of therapy. I went upstairs and told my parents.
Bob: We heard the noises, the doors being broken and the walls. We knew something bad was going on. Then Anne came upstairs, and I went right downstairs. I wanted to talk to him and find out what was going on, and had a pretty good relationship with him. I could talk with him. We talked for 45 minutes. You know, do you want a divorce? What will happen if you get divorced? What will the financial arrangements be?
And then I was just asking him questions, and he was responding and making comments. It was clear to me through that conversation that he did not want to remain married, but couldn’t figure out an acceptable and financially feasible way to get out of the marriage. And there was nothing definitive that happened out of that conversation.
Family Support: A Crucial Element while Helping Your Abused Daughter
Anne: Remember when you said something about the police and he was like, Oh, I, I know how to deal with them.
Bob: Yeah, I said, you know, the police could come over right now and arrest you for abuse from what transpired here today. And he said, “Oh, I’m not worried about that. I can talk my way out of that.” And he said some other things about divorce and money, so that kind of laid it bare between us, knowing where he was at and what was going on in his head. And it was only a month after that.
Anne: He actually was arrested. So from your perspective, Dad at that moment where you’re like my daughter is married to someone who does not care about her. He wants to divorce, but he can’t figure it out. What were you thinking in your head?
Bob: I’m going to admit where I think I went wrong and where my thinking was wrong at that point. Jim, you mentioned something I think was critical to that. In terms of telling your daughter that she needed to do what she needed to do, and you had her back. I think I was deficient in that area, still, of the mode of, what will correct this. And it takes two to tango. I didn’t understand the nature of abuse. I was not as unconditionally supportive as I should have been at that time.
2. Help Your Abused Daughter By Giving Her 100% Unquestioning Support
Bob: And that’s one of the big issues that I would like to communicate to all listeners in terms of family support, helping their abused daughter. My observation is that in abuse, the tendency to say there are two sides of this goes out the window. The abuse victim needs 100% unquestioning support from those close to her, in particular her parents or siblings and other family members. Again, from reading and observation, I think that’s one of the things that is damaging and lacking in these abuse cases.
Jim: You know, that moment when I told her I had her back was after I finally woke up. Because, there were a lot of signs along the way. In fact, I’d been sent up there a few weeks before to talk to him and ask him to leave. I was unsuccessful, but because he’s a good talker. And to be honest, we had a great talking relationship, because I guess I like to talk, and he liked to talk. We had common interests.
Although my daughter makes it clear now that sometimes she thinks some of the interests are faked interests, to groom the parents too.
Bob: That was going on in our case, and maybe I am being too hard on myself, but I don’t think so. I was too willing to hear and listen to him. It was damaging to her. And it damaged my relationship with my daughter.
Anne: Well, I think one of the things that hurt me during that time was that I’m not perfect. To have, obviously, my abuser using my weaknesses against me, and weaponizing those. And then also, my strengths he was exploiting, and weaponizing those.
A Father’s Reflection To Helping his Abused Daughter
Anne: And then, being able to word it in a way that my dad knew me so well was like, well, I can see his point of view. Because Anne is opinionated, and she is very direct. And so, because of that, instead of being like, that’s not the issue, the issue is your abuse. He had misogynistic empathy, would you say, toward him?
Bob: Yeah.
Anne: That was hurtful to me, because there are many women who are quiet, like Rosie, or maybe assertive, like I am, but they’re not being abused. So that doesn’t have anything to do with it.
Bob: This is a broader issue than just a parent. I think a bishop or pastor, minister, therapist, anyone in that role, interacting with an abused victim, will have these kind of tendencies. I recognized afterwards as hurtful and detrimental to my daughter.
Anne: Also, just flat out not true. So, for example, he could say, well, if she would just do this and that. And those weaknesses in her may be true, but it’s not true that if she were different, he would stop abusing her. That’s where it’s just not true.
Bob: That’s what I didn’t understand.
Anne: Yeah.
Jim: I think that hits it exactly right. Because I will say one thing about her, in our family, she’s probably the best at self care. I’ll just say that, and that sometimes annoys siblings. And those are the kind of things that he would, in fact, I think he would bring up, especially around her family, those kinds of things.
Anne: And weaponize them.
Jim: Yeah.
Anne: I’m guessing she’s not selfish per se. She’s good at self care.
Weaponizing Strengths & Attacking Her Character
Jim: Yeah, if everybody took care of themselves as good as she did, the world would be a better place, you know.
Anne: Right, attacking that strength, saying she’s selfish. Taking it farther than it needs to go to attack her character. That’s the type of thing an abuser would do.
Jim: Yeah, pretty much, yeah.
Bob: Those are some of the things going on, in my mind, I’d had a prior interaction with him about pornography years before. I was really direct, but I was also empathetic and trying to be understanding.
I wasn’t trying to be an ogre and beat him over the head, but I did beat him over the head in as nice a way as possible. So, we had that history coming into this, but I did not understand the nature of abuse and the continuum of abuse. And I didn’t understand the damaging nature of my lack of unequivocal support for my daughter.
Anne: So he was arrested at night, and I called my parents, they were helpful that night. But the next morning, you were like, well, should I bail him out? And Mom was like, no, you remember that? Cause he was like, what do we do? Did you feel like he was your responsibility?
Bob: Well, yeah, I mean, he’s family. I mean, yeah, again. The detachment of being family, and you referenced this, Jim, as to accept defeat and to recognize, the situation you’re in, and I was still in this, this can be reconstructed, and what can I do to help?
If You Help Your Daughter, You Need To Have A Good Attitude
Bob: And I didn’t realize it had passed beyond at that point. There’s that pivotal transitional point where, and Jim, you alluded to it. You don’t want to be a nitpicker and actually damage their marriage when it’s salvageable. So when do you recognize you need to make this pivot and change the way you’re viewing it?
And the way you’re seeing it, and the way you react to it? That’s a tough one, but I think the transition needs to be made more intentional and more conspicuous while helping your abused daughter.
Anne: I was thinking about the necessity of getting help, and how many women don’t reach out for help. Because they don’t want people to be mad or upset. And in this episode, my dad talks about how he had a bad attitude at one point. And my mom, thank goodness, was like, well, let him have a bad attitude. You need help.
And then I was talking to my sister about it, and she was saying that. Their attitude is their choice, but if they will help you, even with a bad attitude and you need help, it’s okay. It’s okay to get help. You’ll hear about that.
Jim: You know, one thing that happened after the separation. There had been a group text between his parents, my wife and I, and the two of them. And it was mostly, you know, sending pictures of grandkids. Well, when she left, he blew up through the text.
So we said okay, let’s put it in here in the family group. Thinking that in front of his parents, he wouldn’t be such a jerk, but that didn’t work at all. He was just as bad of a jerk there.
His Real Character Shows Up
Jim: But, through all that, we got to see the real thing underneath. It made us wonder how did I let the wolf in, how did this happen?
One of my good friends that I talked to that first week and explained it to him, he’s pretty direct. He said, “One of us loves my daughter, and it ain’t him,” was his summary of what was going on.
Bob: Maybe that’s a good time to get to this other issue.
Anne: That you wanted to hear about.
Bob: Yeah.
Anne: Thank goodness when he left, I was texting with him. But it got so out of control, and every time he would text, my heart rate would go up. I would just go into like full trauma mode.
Taking a Stand: Blocking To Help Your Abused Daughter
Anne: So my dad, I’ll let him tell the story. Wrote him and said, “Hey, you are not gonna talk to her anymore. I’ve instructed her to block you on her phone from now on. You have to go through me.” So the divorce was final. And my dad sent that message to him. Then after that, for years, the messages went through him. Can you talk about that Dad, you seeing it with your own eyes?
Bob: Oh yeah, he was very trifling, and he’s a lawyer, so he used legal language and intimidating language. And it was in that time that I was still not where I should have been in terms of totally supportive of Anne. But one of those emails snapped. And I drafted an email back to him that was stronger. He had been using some church language in there, in terms of his responsibilities to the church, and I just debunked that.
Anne: You said your religiosity. I remember that word. You were like, I’m not going to put up with this ridiculous religiosity.
Bob: That’s exactly what I said. And then, I will not allow you to continue to abuse Anne through your communication interactions. And from now on, you’ll communicate directly with me. The most important part of that email and me doing that was the support of Anne and how it made her feel. And what it did for her, and her ability to cope, and to get up in the morning and do what she needed to do.
Anne: Yeah, I was grateful when I saw the message he wrote. He said, “I’m going to send this.”
The Aftermath Of Legal & Emotional Battles
Anne: I was like yay, because it was so direct, it wasn’t trying to be nice, or trying to negotiate while helping. It’s like she is blocking you on her phone. I have told her to do this, and this is what is happening, and I’m not putting up with this anymore.
And it just felt good. I did block him on my phone, and I blocked him on emails. He didn’t have a choice, because he couldn’t get hold of me. He would call sometimes or text my dad, but most of the time it was through email. And after that, he started attacking my dad. And saying my dad was a bully, if you don’t remember.
Bob: He did, I thought about it at the time, but not much. And that is whether it was legal under the divorce decree for this to happen. For me to, insert myself into the communication, but the consequences legally were so minimal. I mean, no judge was going to…
Anne: It did come back to bite me in a custody situation later, and they were like, this isn’t good. And at that point, I started using Our Family Wizard, and since it had been five years of communicating with him through my dad, I was a lot stronger then. And now I communicate strategically with him through Our Family Wizard, and it works fantastic.
But that’s because at that time, I had discovered the strategies from the Living Free Workshop. And I was using those strategies. In fact, now I kind of enjoy it because I can see what he’s doing and know how to combat it.
Communication Strategies That Really Work
Anne: When you’re in trauma and probably where Rosie is right now. You’re thinking, how do I explain this? How do I respond to this message? It’s so overwhelming. And so, because I hadn’t figured out the strategies to have the support of my parents at that time was awesome. But the Living Free strategies work way better than going through my dad.
Also, just having you read them and validate me and be like, this is insane. He’s insane. He sounded so nice, and he uses legalese, and he never swore or wrote in all caps or anything. So it didn’t seem abusive, but if you really read it and understood what he was saying, it was awful. And included lies, manipulation and gaslighting .
Bob: And entitlement, I mean, everything was, he was entitled to this, to that, and to the other. But anyway, I think there’s some upsides and downsides to what I did. I would do it again had I had the opportunity, even knowing what I know now.
Jim: I think if there’s no kids involved, never communicate with them again.
Anne: Absolutely.
Jim: it’s good. With kids.
Anne: You’re forced to communicate with an emotional and psychological abuser if you have children. What communication is she using with him right now?
Jim: She’s using that, My Family Wizard, because I think I heard that on one of your things.
The Power Of Workshops & Strategies while Helping Your Abused Daughter
Anne: So the Living Free Workshop outlines the foundational strategies for how to think about it. What boundaries to set, and also the basics of communication. And then builds on those principles to teach women how to write messages that look great in court. But also cut off his ability to abuse you.
Because he’s trying to gain power over her. These strategies neutralize his ability to do that and level the playing field. And I developed these strategies and delivered myself and my kids. Then, I used it with other women to see if it was going to work for them. And it did. So then I made it into a workshop.
Frustration, Faith & The World’s Worst Victim
Anne: I developed the strategies because I was so frustrated. I was like, are you kidding me? I have done everything right. And I resisted the abuse the whole time I went to therapy. When I found out, I set boundaries, and I’m divorced, and I’m still going to have to deal with his abuse the rest of my life. Like this is not fair. I was so angry about it.
And I was like, there has to be a way. And since I am Christian, I thought Jesus is the deliverer. He can deliver me if I have faith, and I’m going to figure out a way to do this through Jesus. Which is what happened. And even though the Living Free Workshop is secular, because we’re interfaith here and interparadigm. That’s how it came to be. So that might help her, Jim, know how to strategically message him.
Jim: Yeah, good suggestion. it’s good to have, particular rules.
Anne: Well, I was like the world’s worst victim. He even told me once, he said, “You never do what you’re supposed to do.”
Your abuser has a goal in mind. And then apparently the victim is supposed to be like, “Oh, that made him mad. So I’m not going to do that again. Cause I don’t want to make him mad.” I was like, “If I give in to this, then he’s just gonna get madder.” So heck no, like I don’t care if it makes you mad. I’m gonna do it anyway, and he hated it. I was the world’s worst victim.
Bob: He has some strong resentments towards me, which are fine. And playing that role and taking some of that flack I think was helpful.
Dealing With Financial Responsibilities & Divorce
Jim: Yeah, I received plenty of that. Right soon after she left, his message was like, “You’re the last person in the world I’ll take marriage advice from.”
Anne: Can we get to like a sensitive topic? You guys might be like, Oh, I don’t want to admit this, but can we talk about the weight of financial responsibility? That you may feel as a father while helping your abused daughter in this situation, and how maybe wanting to avoid having to help her financially weighed into your decisions?
Jim: I think that’s what many women struggle with, because culturally nobody wants to take that responsibility back on. This has opened my eyes to previous divorces and different things over the years with relatives and friends. To see things in a different light. And some of those poor women were left on their own, and I can see it now. And I didn’t support them because I didn’t understand. But yeah, it’s a major concern.
In church, the preacher, he’s a divorce attorney, and he’s talking about how divorce equals poverty in his mind. That was his definition of it. I told my friend, I said, yeah, and some things are worse than poverty. And that’s, I think, the point my daughter got to. You know, I can’t take this anymore. And so come what may move forward now. Fortunately for us, she’s towards the older part of our family, and the younger part of our family was straggling in the home.
Helping her By Understanding Her Independence
Jim: And once she brought three kids here, they quickly found a place to live, so we had room. From that aspect, it works out, but if we weren’t able to take her here and him holding onto the house. And, her not wanting to be there with him there. I guess her options were to go to an abuse shelter.
I don’t know. What women’s options are, but it’s not pretty and it’s a very trapped scenario. And I’ve even looked at some, different situations with suicide that I’ve been aware of. And I wonder if that wasn’t the cause.
Anne: Do you want to talk about that? Because I remember you telling me, and I was mad about this. You said something like, now I’m going to have to be responsible for you. And I was ticked because I was like 37. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I just need help. I am fully responsible for myself. And don’t know what you think you’re saying in that. I need help. And, you saying that, really ticked me off.
Bob: Yeah, it was the wrong thing for me to say, and I repent of saying that. It was part of that transitional process of accepting what you faced and supporting you. I’m financially okay, and I had the resources to help. But there was a reluctance in me to step in and do it. It helped a lot when I finally made that transition. My wife was there from the beginning. So, she was a great help getting me where I needed to be.
Jim: That’s one thing for sure, is my wife was much ahead of me. In figuring things out as well.
Need For Immediate & Nonjudgemental Emotional & Financial Support
Bob: She needed the immediate support both emotionally and financially, not the reluctance. You could put it in the emotional side of Anne, what did you do to cause this? This is partly your fault. Those kinds of comments, which were terribly hurtful, inappropriate, and wrong. On the other side, is the financial of, oh no, what have you done? Now I’ve got to take care of you, which I’d said to you, which was terribly damaging.
So again, if those of us in this situation can catch this lesson early and make that transition earlier. It would be much preferred and helpful to the victim. I’m just crushed, and those women who don’t have the resources. Either their parents are not in a position to help them or are unwilling to help them, and what do they do?
And there are lots and lots of those people in that situation who are suffering a lot emotionally and financially because they don’t have that support system.
Anne: So many of our listeners do not have a supportive father. I mean, you were helping me, and I have the privilege and liberty to be like. It made me mad when my dad helped me when he said that. But women don’t have anything. They don’t have even maybe a mother who would understand. And so acknowledging that and letting them know that our hearts go out to anybody in that situation. And it’s really hard. It’s an uphill battle to free or deliver yourself from abuse.
Bob: I don’t know that there was anything we weren’t providing. You were being taken care of. It was the attitude. And there’s a terrible situation that is on my conscience.
The Heartache Of A Valentine’s Day Costco Incident
Anne: Is it Costco?
Bob: Yeah.
Anne: I’m thinking about that too! I was gonna bring it up! Okay, so I’ll lay the foundation here. My family loves Costco, and it was my dad’s birthday, and it was also near Valentine’s Day. And I was living off of food orders. Like, I had no money to buy any, anything extra. And so we went to Costco, and I just started piling stuff in the cart.
Because I was like, this is my chance to get some stuff. And, sorry, I’m crying because it was Valentine’s Day, and there was nobody around to give me a Valentine’s present. So I was like, I’m getting this plant, and I’m getting these pajamas. And I was nervous about it, but I was like, I’m doing this anyway, and my dad was kind of mad.
But he did it, he bought it for me. You weren’t, like, yelling at me or anything, but there was just this hesitancy. Like what, she just expects me to pay for all this stuff in this cart, and I was like, heck yes, I do! Anyway, do you want to talk about that?
Bob: Well, yeah, there was that reluctance.
Anne: And entitlement on my part, that I was like, I can pile all this stuff in the cart and I’m gonna make my dad pay for it.
Bob: But there was a history there as well.
Anne: Of what? Oh, is this where you’re gonna blame me for my part in it?
Bob: No, before you were married. At Costco, then…
Anne: Then you would buy stuff.
Bob: Then I’d buy the whole cart, and…
Anne: Never complain about it.
Bob: Never complain about it.
Helping Your Abused Daughter By Having A Good Attitude
Anne: This was before I was married. It was like, okay, she’s single, so whatever she puts in the cart, I’ll buy it for her. Then I get married. Yeah, that’s true. So, I wasn’t entitled, I was just expecting what I’d always gotten. I’m kidding. But you were grumpy about it, and you were like, and on my birthday, you made me pay for a plant!
Bob: It was just a little thing that was important. Well, it was like a little, I mean, it was very important. But it was symbolic.
Anne: To me, it felt like I could relax for a minute and buy a plant and buy some pajamas when I hadn’t been able to get anything extra for what a long time. So that, like a financial burden that a dad might feel, would either lead him to help, but perhaps have a bad attitude about it, or not help at all, or help with a great attitude, either way.
One of the things that I want dads to know is that the solution to help your abused daughter isn’t, “Well, then we gotta get her married to someone else. So someone else can take care of her.” Like, women can take care of themselves, they just need the opportunity. Like, does she want to go to law school? Just like you put the time and effort into your son’s careers. Think about her in that way. What career would be good for her?
Encouraging Independence Yet Giving your daughter The Help she needs
Anne: How can she support herself and her family, and put the time, effort and support into making sure she can be financially independent and support her family.
I chose Betrayal Trauma Recovery as my way of supporting my. Family and my kids, and myself. My dad was financially helpful. I did Betrayal Trauma Recovery with no money for what, three or four years. I didn’t get paid anything. Child support was inadequate. My dad supported me through that, and I was grateful. And my church did too. So Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here in part because of that.
And my mom was really helpful. Because she was like, there’s no way she can do Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Because you know, I worked 8 hour, 10 hour, 14 hour days. Sometimes building the website, doing all the stuff I did. And there was no way I could have done it had I had to work another job. Also, my kids were young, so they could watch Octonauts while I built like Betrayal Trauma Recovery at home.
Bob: My general theme through this, Jim, is that again, transition point where you become unconditionally supportive. Financially and emotionally for my daughter, I was slow getting there, and I regret it.
Anne: One thing I want to talk about is that transition period for just a minute is that this person has always been inappropriate to be married to, right?
Transitioning To Support From Misunderstanding
Anne: They’ve been abusive since the very beginning. And so she has been in an abusive relationship since before she even married him, since the moment she met him. And so she’s also been trying to manage it, and so she is also going through that transition period. So for you listeners thinking about the transition you had into recognizing it was abuse. To understand what was going on, to realize that you need to separate yourself from the harm.
And then all of us feel anger or I think righteous anger toward, like, why don’t people get this? Or understand, just realize that you had to go through that period to realize what they were like, and so do your loved ones, and some of them might come around later.
Some of your loved ones might not be safe enough to interact with. Like, you might have to distance yourself from them until they understand, because interacting with them will harm you more and make it harder for you to get to safety.
Bob: Some of them may never come around at all.
Anne: Exactly, and that’s really hard when you not only have to distance yourself from your abusive spouse, but also recognize through that process that some of your loved ones or your own family are in that category. And you also have to separate yourself from them.
Jim: I mean, we’re still wrangling through the legal things. At this point, he seems set on this 50-50, seems more symbolic than anything else, because I can’t imagine he can keep working and keep the kids half the time.
Navigating Legal Challenges With An Abuser
Anne: There are two reasons why he wants 50-50. One is to hurt her, and the second is so he doesn’t have to pay child support. So, those are the only two reasons.
Bob: Well, there’s a third reason. The law is specific in leading to 50-50 if you can’t negotiate something else. That’s where it goes, and so it’s an entitlement factor that you experience with your ex.
Anne: Right that I’m entitled to 50%, right.
Bob: Maybe he didn’t want them that much, but he wasn’t going to back down in the face of I’m entitled to 50 % and therefore I’m going to get it.
Jim: My fatherly right.
Bob: Oh, you’ve heard that one.
Jim: My son-in-law is not an attorney, but he’s a wordsmith by nature. And so he loves to pretend a lot of times. He pulls some pretty funny ones, but yeah, he tries to use words to manipulate, tries to use bigger words than he knows what means.
Bob: That sounds familiar. That’s one of the motivations I had for intervening and taking over the communication. It was that kind of wordsmithing.
Anne: My view is that basically the divorce process is like a cage, and the abusers love it. They like to be in the divorce process, because then she’s still stuck to him. She’s in this cage with him, and she wants to get out. She can see what’s happening, but she can’t get out.
Once the divorce is signed, he doesn’t have as much control or power over the situation. And so he doesn’t want it finalized. Like, he wants to drag it out. I don’t know about your particular abusive son in law, but in general, this is like fun for them.
Considering Financial Independence in Helping Your Abused Daughter
Anne: So trying to settle out of court to help your abused daughter. They owe you a lot. So this isn’t like, do they owe you something? They absolutely do. But just for your own freedom. I am a fan of literally asking them for nothing. Like, don’t ask them for child support, don’t ask them for anything, and just get out and figure out how to support your own family by yourself. Because my feeling is anything they can hold over your head, they’re going to for the rest of your life.
Being able to say, I don’t want anything from this person. I will support myself. This has been the view I have taken, and I think it has helped me. I’m not saying everyone would be capable of doing that, or women should not get child support. But it’s something to think about, only because they will always use anything that you feel they owe you to entrap you, to control you. So that’s something to consider.
Bob: Not everybody will have that luxury.
Jim: It is a good long-term direction. I mean, they’ll always have the kids to manipulate you with, even as the kids get older. For example, when this happened, I called my mom to tell her, and all I had to do was bring up her best friend, her ex husband’s name. I said, I think we have one of these in our family.
She’s all, oh my goodness, who? And then I told her, and she’s like, just started to click in her mind. I can see that. And it all came to that. She could see it.
Clergy & No Tolerance For Abuse
Jim: And those kinds of people like this guy in particular, her friend’s ex, he passed away recently, but his whole life, you know, he manipulated with the adult kids pretty much to the end.
Anne: Yeah, have you been surprised or pleased at how clergy or other people have reacted to help your abused daughter?
Jim: A little surprised, yeah.
Anne: In what way?
Jim: The comment was something along the lines of, well, maybe you can learn to be a little stronger. And he can learn to be a little. And I’m like, yeah, no help at all.
Anne: Also, Jim shares our faith. At least in our faith, clergy is supposed to be like a righteous judge, and hold people accountable. And there seems to be a complete lack of accountability and belief. Every time I bring it up, they’ll be like, well, I don’t know if I’d use the word abuse. I mean, yeah, he’s acting like a jerk, and I said, well, I took the church training and it said, I was supposed to report abuse and that you would not tolerate it.
And so I am reporting it. What are you going to do to not tolerate it? And they stare at me and blink. They’re like, well, we don’t tolerate it. And I’m like, okay, well then what are you going to do to not tolerate it? And they’re like, uh, and, um, then I end up being disliked even more by the clergy. So that’s fun.
Lack Of Knowledge of Abuse By Clergy Leads to No Help For An Abuse Situation
Jim: My experience has been, unless somebody, and maybe this is between a rock and a hard place. But unless somebody is willing to admit their wrongs, they don’t seem to ever do anything.
Anne: Okay, if they don’t admit it, then it’s like, well, he says he wasn’t abusive. And history is different, and we don’t know who to believe, right? So that’s that situation in trying to help your daughter. If he admits it, the reports we get from the victims are like. “Oh, well, he admits he was abusive and willing to repent.” And so he’s repentant. So I don’t know why you’re not forgiving him. So it’s like, lose, lose.
Okay. So he admitted he’s abusive. So you’re not even going to release him from his calling. Like nothing, but then they won’t do it. Even if there are multiple witnesses either. So there’s like no accountability. Well, there might be some Bishop out there who does hold abuse accountable. But from my experience at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the overarching theme is that. There’s no accountability for abusers in the church, especially emotional and psychological abuse.
Jim: Here’s one thing I’ll say: This whole stepping on eggshells is what my daughter lived with. And then, we were living with it too, because we wouldn’t be reluctant to bring up anything. I think my wife one time mentioned how the son-in-law should get a better relationship with the three year old, something just in passing. Well, he was in the next room, overheard it, and took it out on our daughter later.
Societal Misogyny & Self-Reflection About It
Jim: Just because my wife had said that, so I think the church does the same thing. Oh, we don’t want to offend any of these people. They might leave, or something, I don’t know. It’s what it feels like.
Anne: There’s that, and then there’s this view that, like wait, she must not understand. Because he’s such a good guy, he shows up at church and gives good lessons. When he talks in our congregation, it’s such a good talk, and he shows up for service projects. So he’s a good guy, I don’t know why his wife doesn’t understand what a good guy he is.
Jim: Yeah, our society is based on good speaking. And if you are good speaking, it seems like you can get away with lots of things.
Anne: It’s also just flat out misogyny. They believe the man and his persona and his image over a woman’s account.
A Father’s Perspective
Jim: Right, and I don’t know how you feel about this, Bob. But this whole scenario has made me examine myself as a husband, and sad to say I’ve made some improvements because of misogyny. It goes through our whole culture.
Bob: I totally agree with you. I’m with you there all the way. And I’ve had to do some real introspection.
Jim: So there’s some good that comes out of it, I guess.
Anne: For your daughter’s sake, after the divorce is final. And she has wings to figure out who she is and what kind of life she wants. And it’s working toward providing that for your abused daughter her and her children. She will gain that strength.
Anne: She will gain that strength, and this will be like a time of her life that was awful. And just hellish, but the person that she will become will be incredible, and you’re going to be amazed and so proud of her. And so just supporting her as she makes her way is exactly how to help her.
Jim: Thank you. I appreciate that. I was talking to my younger brother about taking my daughter back. And he said, well, I never gave mine away. I just was willing to share her. I think that’s a healthy fatherly perspective.
3. Know That She Is Capable & Strong, She Just Needs Help Until She Heals
Anne: Maybe, but also she’s not yours, is a healthier thing.
Jim: That for sure. Because now that you mentioned that, that was one of the things that my son-in-law said in the text. The first or second day, “My children, my most precious possessions, you know.”
Anne: It’s great that you want to protect her, but that’s another misogynistic way to think about it. Like, this is my daughter, and you want to help your daughter. She will be and can be responsible for herself. She needs support and help, but that doesn’t make her incapable.
Jim: I mean, the only reason she needs financial or other support is because of the three young children. Exactly, she’s perfectly capable of taking care of herself in all ways.
Anne: Exactly.
Jim: Better than me, because when I have the three children. It doesn’t take too long, and I’ve about had it.
Anne: And knowing that the reason why she needs help is because her children need help. Like it’s not because she’s feeling entitled or incapable. It’s because she’s a mom of young children who need her, and they need their mom especially if they’ve got a 50-50 situation with an abuser.
Jim: Yeah, when they come back, they want to be with her. They don’t want us to get in the way, and yes, they want her.
Anne: Thank you so much, Jim, for reaching out. And thank you, Dad, for helping me so much. Even when you had a bad attitude, when the rubber hit the road, you supported me and helped me.
How To Establish Healthy Boundaries With Your Abusive Ex – Celeste’s Story
Dec 05, 2023
Learning how to establish healthy boundaries with your abusive ex-husband is essential for your emotional safety. Celeste, a member of The BTR.ORG Community, shares strategies in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop to establish emotional safety and find peace in a difficult situation.
This video simply and clearly breaks down what effective boundaries are, and how women can begin to establish them.
Post-separation abuse is a sad reality for many victims of betrayal and emotional abuse. Even though they have separated themselves from the abuser, the abuser may still try to exert power and control. Often, abusers will use communication, coparenting, and finances to create chaos and distress in victims’ lives. It is essential that victims establish healthy boundaries with their abusive ex.
Transcript: How To Establish Healthy Boundaries With Your Abusive Ex
Anne: A member of our community, we’re going to call her Celeste is on today’s episode. She’s divorced and has been working toward setting healthy boundaries with her abusive ex husband. She was concerned about working through some financial problems that her ex was causing. She implemented some Living Free strategies found in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Thanks for coming on today.
Anne: Do you feel like you could use the strategies in Living Free to resolve these financial issues?
Celeste: Yes, I was. It was difficult, but resolved. Retirement funds were transferred and bank accounts were closed. I’m financially disconnected from my ex.
Anne: So talk about how things have gone since you implemented these Living Free strategies and healthy boundaries.
Celeste: I gained some resiliency in dealing with him and in the minimum response possible. And I find that instead of reacting, this magic solution has happened. I don’t know how to articulate it, but it has been a peaceful time in my heart and soul in dealing with him. And I am grateful for it.
https://youtu.be/9aa5bgEY3bY
Anne: So talk about before you found the Living Free strategies. What was going on?
Celeste: Well, I thought this just doesn’t work for me, I need to do something. I felt very guilty, that I wanted some sort of barrier between communication. As I went back and forth and researched, they didn’t fit my situation. And so I kept looking for something. It didn’t come about.
Transformative Impact Of Living Free & Healthy Boundaries
Celeste: My internal dialogue is different. My internal thought processes about my ex’s behavior, whether present behavior or past behavior, and it creates a space where I can feel safer, settled, and resilient. I realized I had so much pain, so much betrayal, and trauma in my body that I wasn’t able to heal physically. Emotional abuse affects your body dramatically. I had to make a boundary for my own physical health and safety.
It became easier for my body to process the betrayal, the trauma, and get rid of pain. And I’ve become healthier and happier, connecting and checking in with my body. Women dealing with a narcissistic husband or addict are very sacrificial. They deny their own needs so much that it became second nature to give up physical boundaries as well as emotional boundaries. And that’s what I have been doing for 35 years.
So I’ve been disconnected with my own self, just knowing myself, knowing my own healthy boundaries for myself, as well as with relationships. So getting in touch with my own body has been revolutionary in my healing process.
Reclaiming Personal Healthy Boundaries
Anne: Do you feel now, like you’re more on your way to getting your needs met? One of your key needs is safety. Do you feel like you’re farther down that path?
Celeste: Yes, I feel like I have grown tremendously. In safety and in being more in touch with my needs.
When my husband and I were in the initial process of the divorce, he came to me several times and said, “I have this list of needs that I want you to consider, if we can consider a reconciliation.” And the healthier I got, I was able to say to him, Well, you know, I’m learning that my needs are important. I’m learning that I’m the best suited person, most qualified person to meet my own needs.
That, whether it’s asking for someone to help me meet a need or just being in charge of it myself. He would get angry when I would say that, because he had this list of demands that he wanted me to automatically meet. Embrace and agree to so that we could stay married even after infidelity That was a good sign to me that I was doing the right thing, because I knew he was going to continue to assume that I was supposed to meet his needs, and I knew that I needed to meet my own needs.
And be in charge of that, and be in tune enough to know what they were.
Healing Through Writing
Celeste: I found out towards the end that my husband was writing journals of thoughts about me. And he identified me as a monster, and talked about why doesn’t she just leave? Our daughter and I would be better off without her. Why doesn’t she do the right thing and go away?
It was devastating, and the reason it was so devastating. I mean, you can imagine any wife finding volumes of journals like that, but it was so devastating because I’m a writer. Writing to me is an artistic expression, and it’s part of who I am. When I found these words that were harsh and ugly. I realized the time and energy he had put into recording these ugly thoughts about me. It took away my writing voice somehow.
And I was not able to write for a couple of years. I had been writing a blog that was really popular, and it literally shut me down. So, a great barometer of knowing how I’m healing now is that I’m writing again. I’ve found my voice again, and it’s a different voice, definitely, but I’m writing, and it’s a good sign that healing has taken place.
Anne: I love this part about The Living Free Workshop, focusing on what we want to do, our dreams and our talents.
Sharing A Poem: The Road Home
Anne: You sent me a poem. And I’d like you to share it with our audience. If you feel comfortable enough to share it.
Celeste: It’s interesting. As I started to write it, it was about something else. As I finished it, it was the right poem.
The Road Home
I followed the ice crested bear tracks north, ready to face my doomsday fear and dispatch the cruel beast once and for all. But as the tsunami like winds dissipated, hope glimmered desperately under the wreckage of my snow cape. That’s when the thaw began. So as the icicles dripped, grieving tears, I took some hesitant steps toward the sun, even though it was just a distant vacation memory from a trip I never quite took.
As I picked my way through a desolate landscape filled with broken mirrors, rusty bed frames, and shredded books, The splintered forest turned verdant and fresh. My feet fell on moss covered stones as I discovered new territory where all distant paths lead home. Then, as if on cue, the leaf bed below revealed the tiniest of breadcrumbs, leading into the horizon where all maps turned to dust.
So, even though I was no longer lost, I stooped to pick them up, one by one, for nourishment along the way. Yes, I followed the ice crusted bear tracks north, and they led me safely back to myself.
Anne: Thank you for sharing that.
Reflections On The Journey To establish Healthy Boundaries
Anne: So in that poem, you went on a journey. You thought you were looking for something. But you found out that isn’t what the journey was about. And you came back to yourself. The feeling that the poem gave in the end is so peaceful and calm. What did you learn in the process of writing that poem?
Celeste: I think I learned that I am responding to my own needs and I’m in my own corner for the first time in my life.
When I grew up, I had a narcissistic mother, and I was always on alert about how to behave, so that I wouldn’t get pushed aside or blamed. And so I transferred to my husband, and I had the same dynamic. So I’ve had no practice advocating for myself and my own needs. I realized as I wrote the poem, I was taking a journey, and I thought I was looking for another person in this journey. And yet, I was the person I needed to find, and I am still in the process of doing that.
As I find myself and validate my own needs, and then advocate to get those needs met in some healthy way, I know that I’m becoming a better person. My own best friend and advocate in a world that can sometimes be harsh and disturbing. The relationship I have with myself is the primary relationship in my life now. Not to say I push others out, but to say that I validate who I am and my needs, so that I can bring and embrace other people into my circle and have true connections.
Workshop Invitation
Celeste: And that’s a boundary I have never had in my life. I’ve always felt like I’ve had to sacrifice my own needs to connect intimately with others, whether it’s a friend, a relative or a significant other. And it’s always been a lose, win situation, and for the first time in my life, I can choose relationships according to a win-win.
Anne: That is awesome. I’m so grateful that you’re feeling better. It is imperative that women feel empowered to stop emotional abuse from their husband or ex husband. Thank you so much for coming on to share your story. If you’re interested in learning strategies to help you live free from stress, chaos, and trauma, and them taking up so much space in your head. Enroll in The Living Free Workshop today.
Best Betrayal Trauma Help You Can Count On – Women’s Stories
Nov 28, 2023
When you discover your husband has betrayed you with secret use of inappropriate online material or infidelity, it’s important to seek the best betrayal trauma resources.
Transcript: Betrayal Trauma Resources You Can Count On
Anne: We have a special episode today. Several women will share the betrayal trauma resources that help them the most. Check out our Group Session Schedule.
All right, ladies, take it away.
https://youtu.be/VKuJBWVRQp0
Victim #1: Finally Finding The Correct Betrayal Trauma Resource!
Betrayal Trauma Victim #1: For years, like we’d have fights and I would go to the internet to find out how I could be better so we could stop having fights.
And article after article was never right. I just knew. And finally one day I stumbled upon the BTR podcast. I’m thankful for the transcript. I like to read them, And I finally, knew that what I was reading was right and when I had a name for what was going on in my marriage, I could finally start to work to fix it and fixing it has not meant what I thought it would. BTR has saved my life.
The Impact Of Group Sessions
Betrayal Trauma Victim #2: I had been in therapy for years, and at least a year with Chuck and there were no breakthroughs or anything. It was the same cycle over and over and over again with no real solution. When I found BTR, I honestly was trying to find reasons in my head why the group wouldn’t be good for me because I knew it was going to change everything .
And it did, having BTR group during that time got me through and you know, I wouldn’t be growing the way that I am without BTR.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #3: I have been going through, not a good place for about three years. And this is the first time that I have had other people
share their stories where I felt so validated. I could totally relate. This isn’t just me. I’m not going crazy. I can stand my ground and create boundaries to keep myself safe, to keep my kids safe and have multiple daily options to check in, check out, share, not share, listen, the isolation that I felt before is starting to dissipate.
The Value Of Support & Growth With Betrayal Trauma Coaching
Betrayal Trauma Victim #4: I arrived at BTR in full blown trauma, never having known what he was doing for years and prior to we were married. And thank God that this is the place that I found. Because there was love and nurturing and education and coaches to walk with me and support me. And I will forever be grateful.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #5: I have been in therapy for 12 years, and only now have I felt I have the expert care and clarity I have been searching for for 12 years. You and this whole group, proactive, where before it was just wishy washy, psychobabbly hit or miss type of therapy. Like, this group is exactly what women need. And I cannot thank you enough.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #6: I didn’t ever think I would be in the position I’m in. I was with my ex fiancé for 20 years. And I had no idea that he was living a double life. I found BTR and scheduled an Individual Session with a BTR Coach, and I haven’t looked back. I have learned so much. Every day I hop on group. I see women that I am inspired by. Women who are ahead of me in the journey, and women who are following me on the journey, and we’re all on different journeys, but somehow the connection that we have and love that we share is real.
So thank you so much. I don’t know what I would have done without BTR for the last 12 months.
When It Comes To Betrayal Trauma Resources The BTR Coaches Are Wonderful
Betrayal Trauma Victim #7: There’s just no support for women, other than the groups available in the addiction realm. My therapist of many years never mentioned the word abuse. I was terrified. The post separation abuse was just heinous. As I got into BTR, I learned so much from the coaches. And since then, with the help of BTR, I am safe in my new place. I’m now starting to process it even more
Due to all the coaches love and support, they have allowed me to have such great strength, realizing I am worth it. I am enough. BTR is a lifesaver, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. You helped save my life, and I am now free and safe.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #8: I’ve been through this for over 30 years. And I’ve been in BTR for five months. My life has changed more in the last five months than all those years I went through. And I appreciate the individual sessions, group sessions, and all the coaches.
Everyone has something different. And all the shares help you understand other ways to do self care and stay safe. I really appreciate BTR. I can’t say enough about it. It’s changed my life.
Betrayal Trauma Resources That Work For YOU
Betrayal Trauma Victim #9: I really didn’t know what to think about my situation.
After almost 30 years being with my husband, . I didn’t know what to do. And I prayed and I did a Google search and I found the podcast bTR was literally an answer to prayer. and it literally changed my life. After a year, I feel so much more empowered and connected and validated. Everything just started to make sense. I have so much clarity.
I’m a completely different person than I was a year ago. I just love BTR group.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #10: The BTR Group Sessions are so helpful, connecting with other people going through this, and not feeling alone, and recognizing that there are lots of super capable, strong, determined, women experiencing abuse at different stages along the way.
And I found the group sessions to be really helpful and the podcast to like understand broader patterns . I’m really glad BTR exists.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #11: I feel like BTR groups have been an opportunity for me to create some routine in my life, like something I can do every single day.
Betrayal Trauma Resources Vetted By Women Who’ve Been Through It
It has just created structure and support in a life that is chaotic, unpredictable, and challenging. And I feel like I like meeting with all the coaches, because they have different perspectives. Each coach has a different vibe.
That’s really helpful. That’s been great. I’ve been doing this a couple months. I’m really happy. And I don’t think I’m going to stop anytime soon. It a really beautiful community of women who’ve been doing it for a long time. It’s really cool to see those connections and to be building them.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #12: BTR Groups and Individual Sessions. Have been an amazing space for me to find safety, encouragement, and support. BTR has helped me and continues to help me, as I’m still in this process to be reminded that I’m not crazy. I can check in with myself and my body.
I’m grateful to have this community, it’s been really important to help me recover.
Resources for Betrayal Trauma That Empower You
Betrayal Trauma Victim #13: I found BTR through the Instagram posts just realizing those posts are about me. They help me.
When I started attending Group Sessions, it was like finally having the place where everything in my life that didn’t make sense made sense, and I wasn’t alone. To be able to. Literally like put the voices from the group in my ears and hear that as things are happening in my life.
It’s just been life changing. It’s been a great support.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #14: betrayal Trauma Recovery has been life changing for me. I’ve been able to share my feelings.
I’ve been able to share my story. The coaches don’t tell me how to live or grow with my husband, but the coaches help me guide my own path. And actually, my counselor pissed me off one day. He said, “You know, women’s groups like to tell each other what to do, and that leads to divorce.”
And I was like, that’s not true. You guys definitely don’t lead us to make decisions that would cause anyone to choose divorce.
That’s a huge thing for me because I’ve heard other places or counselors do that. The fact that I’m able to hear other stories is amazing. I don’t feel alone.
A Betrayal Trauma Resource That Will Bring You Connection
I feel like the knowledge of what other women have gone through. I feel like that has taught me, because it doesn’t have to be the same scenario. It’s just knowing what they’ve done has allowed me to make my decisions. I look forward to it every time I’m on here.
It’s affordable. I definitely recommend BTR to everyone.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #15: BTR has been important for me through this journey. I can just succinctly say that it has saved my life. I would say just simply that. Without BTR, I wouldn’t be here probably.
Human Trafficking Survivor Talks About Common Misconceptions – Sadie’s Story
Nov 21, 2023
Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, talks to Sadie, who with other human trafficking survivor speakers, shares her story. One of the offensive and dangerous societally accepted beliefs is that trafficked workers have chosen and want to be exploited. In fact, the average age of a trafficking victim is only thirteen years old.
In fact, many married women are trafficked by their husband’s without even knowing about it. If you listen and relate, we welcome you to a group for women who have experience sexual coercion in marriage. Attend one of our daily Group Sessions TODAY.
Handlers exploit, abuse, and often torture victims into compliance.
Emotional and psychological abuse are integral components of trafficking, often serving as the invisible precursors to it. It is essential to educate every woman about these forms of abuse, which almost always precede trafficking.
To find out if you’ve experienced any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse from your boyfriend or husband, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Handlers abuse women, whether on a film set or in the bedroom of a predator. Men literally pay for abusing women when they view exploitative material. A predator is anyone who financially supports this exploitative industry. Some abusers justify exploiting women by claiming they aren’t hurting anyone. Every time a man views exploitative material, he is a predator.
Predators Find Gratification In the Abuse Of Women
As Sadie explains, predators cause devastating harm to victims. Some states and countries legalize exploitation. They pave the way for more women and children’s abuse.
One of the most disturbing components of this exploitative industry is that men find gratification in the abuse of women. Users rationalize its use when they believe trafficking workers actually enjoy being exploited. But Sadie explains that this is an illusion.
Whether they made money or not, their intent was to receive something in exchange for exploiting you and that makes it trafficking. It’s important for women to understand that men are completely accountable for their behaviors.
At BTR, we understand the sad truth that an alarming number of women are victims of coercion, assault, and even human trafficking, and betrayal trauma from infidelity -and may not know it.
Transcript: Human Trafficking Survivor Speakers Share The Truth
Anne: On today’s episode, a trafficking survivor is going to share her story. We’ll call her Sadie. Welcome.
Sadie: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I’ve greatly benefited from your podcast, your website, and other victims of betrayal trauma. And I’m grateful to share my story and hopefully help some people.
Anne: You found this podcast because you’re also a betrayal trauma victim. Additionally, someone trafficked you for a year in your youth. I want our listeners to know that you understand this issue on so many levels. And before we started recording, you talked about how words can make trafficking seem different than it is.
Sadie: People throw out the word pimp a lot of the time. And that’s kind of a cartoonish name for what is a slave master, a trafficker, a person who owns other people.
https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw
You’ll hear a buyer called a John, sometimes as a trick, and that makes it seem like they were tricked. They’re just the average John, the average guy, when really this is a person who is purchasing another human being. They were purchasing possibly children. So we refer to them as predators to recognize that that’s what’s happening. Also, a lot of the times you’ll hear prostitute and a prostitute is usually a human trafficking victim or slave.
Anne: I think this is really important to talk about, because we do not want to villainize other victims. As victims ourselves, compassion for other victims, rather than blaming them or giving them responsibility for our husband’s abuse, is not helpful to anybody. I wanted to have this conversation, and that’s one of the reasons.
The Tragic Lie That Human Trafficking Survivors Speak About
Anne: Let’s start with just basic definitions. What is trafficking?
Sadie: Trafficking is the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harboring, or receipt of a person under threat, force, coercion, fraud, deception, and or abuse or power, and exploited for the financial gain of another. This is one of the many types of exploitation.
Society normalizes trafficking. So much so that when I say prostitute, the picture that comes to mind is an adult on the side of the road, luring innocent men. A trafficking victim, on the other hand, is usually imagined as a foreigner. Maybe they’re chained to a bed, possibly injected with drugs. Illusion is the key ingredient in the exploitative industry. It’s a lie that victims depicted are somehow aroused and choosing this.
The truth is that the average age of a trafficking victim is 13 years old. It’s not the willing adult presented in the fantasy. 85 percent of trafficking victims identified in the United States are U.S. citizens. These are our own children.
In 2018, the United States became one of the top three sources for trafficking victims. Trafficking jumped 13 percent in the United States between 20 16 and 2017 and is the fastest growing crime. Americans were the number one consumers worldwide. The annual revenue from the trafficking industry in the United States is more than the NFL, NBA and MLB combined.
Women who are exploited in this way exemplify the highest funded trafficking victims in the United States. All of which we are desensitized to.
Human Trafficking Survivors Shed Light on Inhumane Treatment
Anne: Yeah. It’s jaw-dropping to think about all the different places this shows up in our society, and how many people participate in it in one form or another. In order for it to stop, the demand needs to dry up. If there were no demand, there would be no exploitation. If everyone in the world never clicked on or paid for pornography again, it would make a huge dent in the exploitation industry. Will you talk to us about the realities of a victim since you were trafficked?
Sadie: So just like each betrayal trauma story is different, each trafficking survivor story is also unique. There’s a typical process traffickers use to secure victims, dating, grooming, breaking, and then turning out. The slave master may not take all those steps, depending on their typology. But breaking and turning out will always be present. Which is just the breaking of the person’s spirit and resistance, and then the turning out means forcing them to participate.
Masters betray, deceive, defraud, and coerce at a minimum. It can happen without us even realizing it’s happening. A trafficker has a specific end result in mind, and they will extend their abuse to complete compliance. Each slave has a quota that they must meet each day. Not meeting that quota can mean a wide variety of consequences, including death.
If a victim comes to the car window of a predator lurking to purchase, and cries, they might die that night. If they don’t get a thousand dollars, they won’t get any help. The predator will simply drive away, dismiss it in their mind as rare, a scam, and that most trafficked workers are like Pretty Woman. But younger and going to college.
What Is A “Predator”? Role of Predators
Sadie: The victim will be no closer to having the money they need. The only option they are given, by design, is to service the predators, the term we prefer rather than Johns, buyers or tricks. After a full shift of abuse. A slave master collects the slave from the venue. Sometimes they will work 24 hours. And then they take the slave to a new venue and dropped off again.
They are at the whims of the masters and predators who spend the money. The slave master takes control of all the money paid to the slave.
I wasn’t allowed to buy food or drinks, even water. I would be given those things if my slave master felt I had earned them. My traffickers had multiple girls ranging from 13 to 17, all United States citizens. We slept on the floor in an apartment where mold was on the walls. There was nothing in the apartment besides one bed with no bedding. And it was for the master when he was there, not for us.
We each had one or two outfits chosen for us, and that was the extent of our worldly possessions. And only had contact with the people who pay to use us. We couldn’t engage with, or make eye contact with, anyone else. We suffer greatly at the hands of our masters, but we suffer far worse with the predators who purchase us for services. They abuse us all day, every day. We don’t want to engage them. We cannot ask them for help. They are not safe. We have nobody to help us.
Are You A Victim Of Human Trafficking?
Anne: I am so sorry. That is a living nightmare that you are describing. And, it’s horrific to think that some women listening to this podcast, perhaps including my ex husband, I don’t know, have been involved in this type of abuse. Women find out that their husband also abuses women in the way you’ve described. It is just a nightmare.It’s impossible to live with a husband you don’t trust.
So from your perspective, as a woman who has experienced both betrayal trauma, abuse, and exploitation in the form of being trafficked. What would you like both the betrayed and the abusers listening to know?
Sadie: I occasionally had a betrayed wife ask about some activities within their own marriages that they now question. So I would like to say to the betrayed if your partner has ever forced you to participate in videos with another partner. Or in a field of trafficking, work for their financial gain or for bartering under the fraud of a trusting marriage.
Unfortunately, you may be a human trafficking survivor. Even if they didn’t make money, their poor business skills are not your problem. If the intent was to receive something from your exploitation, please contact a human trafficking resource center. Unfortunately, if we have betrayal trauma and abuse in our homes, we have to become educated on all forms of human trafficking.
The “Consent” Myth
Sadie: For any abuser listening, if you have watched exploitative material, you’ve seen trafficking victims. If you have been to a strip club, you have paid trafficking victims. If you have purchased physical touch, you have paid for slave labor and assault. There is no sugarcoating the statistics. You can’t have so many non willing participants statistically, yet somehow magically have everyone in your own histories within those same venues be happy to be there.
It was a lie that only existed because you asked for lies. If you participate in the exploitation of a fellow human being, you are not an ally. Someone exploits a child every two minutes in the industry. You cannot prop up that system and also be a friend. You are painting targets on your own children with your choices.
Anne: It’s very scary, especially for those who are divorced. We send our children to our abuser, who continues to abuse us through lies and manipulation. Who is looking, for all intents and purposes, like an upstanding member of society. And we don’t know what’s going on.
And even if the only thing, he uses pornography, viewing that means he’s willing to participate in someone’s abuse. I would like to mention to our listeners, because I am religious and talk about God and my own experience, that our guest today is an atheist. Just in case you want to feel validated. I love having all points of view here.
Human Trafficking Survivor Shares her Thoughts on Mainstream Media
Anne: As a trafficking survivor, can you help me understand your perspective on mainstream television shows that include exploitation like Game of Thrones, for example, or any shows like that. Would you say we also need to boycott that?
Sadie: Absolutely. Every click on pornography is to pay for this to happen. It’s paying for the perpetuation of this industry. I remember speaking to my mother about it, because she had recommended it. And I said, Mom, I can’t watch this. It’s too gratuitous, and she’s like, Oh yeah, I wish it wasn’t like that. I’m like, don’t watch, stop watching. That’s how it stops being like that.
Anne: I’d like to know what everybody thinks. So please comment on this episode. The point of saying this is that even if you hate abuse like I, I hate abuse. It’s difficult to live in our society when it’s so rampant. It’s on mainstream television.
Trafficking Minors Is Insidious & Predators Can Be Prosecuted
Anne: Let’s talk about the legalization of “work.” I don’t call it that, because we know it’s abuse. But in our society, there is this normalization of the industry, with some groups even pushing for legalization. As someone who has been in this situation in real life, what is your view on this?
Sadie: First and foremost, for those struggling with, is it okay to say no to exploitative material? Which a lot of women still struggle with. It feels very controlling, and we don’t want to be controlling. It is absolutely okay to say no to it. And it is not prudish to not want children enslaved and abused.
This isn’t sexy because it isn’t real intimacy. It’s abuse of people who have already been abused. It is absolutely healthy to say no to all industries of exploitation and still be pro intimacy. These are not conflicting realities. We are really in a fight for our lives right now. Knowing firsthand what this industry has done to us and to our families. We know what it’s done to vulnerable children and the disenfranchised. It’s insidious.
Right now, we have laws popping up to help recognize victims and stop arresting children for being purchased by an adult, to prosecute buyers and end the demand. There are multiple states where, even if the buyer says they did not know the human trafficking victim is a minor, it is a felony.
They will go to prison, and they will need to register as a sex-offender. There is so much information out there to educate ourselves. That ignorance is no excuse.
The Truth About “Legalized” Trafficking
Sadie: Statistically, it’s a child being bought, and it should not be worth the gamble. That person doing the buying is a risk to our society. At the same time, there are bills to fully decriminalize this kind of work. They are presented with the lie that this will somehow decrease trafficking and provide services for trafficked workers, but they have no resources of any kind provided within the bills.
We know from Las Vegas that trafficking rakes in 50 to 70 times as much money as the legal brothels. In the 48 years since, this kind of work was legalized in parts of Nevada. They now have 63 percent higher rates of trafficking than any other state in the country. And rank in the top 10 states for exploited youth. Less than 10 percent of all prostitution happening in Nevada is legal. We cannot let this hurt any more families and children.
Anne: As women who understand the serious ramifications and abuses that happen with people involved with exploitative material, we also need to recognize that we have also been victims of this in our own homes.
I know several women who have been filmed by their husband, and then the husband posted it online. And they did it without their consent, and they did it without their knowledge. And so they are victims of exploitation. What would you recommend for listeners if they suspect they might be victims of exploitation or wonder if they have been?
Resources For Survivors Of Trafficking
Sadie: A great place to start is a book called Trafficking Prevention by Savannah J. Sanders. It will not only help understand the basics, but also help protect children with trauma. There are national agencies to get information and support, Polaris, is one that is fantastic. The Rebecca Bender initiative does some incredible work with survivors. They’ve personally been amazing to me.
Also look locally. I am from a tiny farm town. This happens everywhere. So find your local agencies, support them, like their pages, share their articles you agree with, attend functions. If you’re brave enough, some even have weekly walks to help and find victims.
There are many churches in my area that do these weekly walks to help free children. And that’s so sad, and it’s empowering simultaneously. Whatever feels comfortable. Recognizing our own limits and recognizing our need for safety right now is your biggest priority. You can contact politicians and demand enforcement of our laws, and be aware of what the laws are in your area.
If my child is kidnapped, it is a crime committed against them. If my child is sold, they are treated as a criminal. Make sure that that is not true for where you live, for your children, and your families.
How To Identify Trafficking Victims
Sadie: Last but not least, learn how to identify trafficking survivors. Teach your children if their friends have a secret boyfriend, a new random expensive gift. Or a new tattoo from a partner, which they think is a tattoo, but it’s a brand or offers for modeling jobs. They need to tell an adult, and that adult can reach out to either their local. or a national human trafficking agency to get assistance on how to proceed.
Victims Of Trafficking Suffer Trauma & Healing Through Compassion
Anne: I’d like to end with this question. Since you are also a betrayal trauma victim, you are currently in a relationship with a man who is abusive to you. And so you understand how all the listeners feel in that regard. How do you think that compassion for other victims can help heal betrayal trauma victims?
Sadie: I think just recognizing that if their partner chose a trafficked worker, they never had any animosity towards the family. They felt genuine compassion and sorrow. I know that I was very triggered in the beginning by any other woman. And I love all my sisters. And that was really hard for me to navigate and retrain my brain. That other women in general aren’t a threat. So I know it takes a lot of work.
Anne: Well, if a man is faithful and non-abusive, honest, transparent and accountable. He’s not gonna accidentally buy someone to have intercourse. He’s not just gonna see an attractive woman, and then suddenly accidentally end up in a hotel room with her.
Sadie: Yeah, I was trapped for roughly a year. And in that time, a John never once had to go to an ATM, meaning they were prepared. They knew what they needed, and they had it. They knew what they were looking for.
Anne: With your husband who betrayed you, how has your experience as a human trafficking survivor informed your decisions about your marriage?
Sadie: Oh, it’s been extremely traumatic. The more trauma you have in your history, the more betrayal trauma intertwines is the way it’s been described to me. And so I’ve had to work to separate the two traumas.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Supports Victims Of Betrayal & Abuse
Sadie: And also to try to remove my husband from my memories of my children, so I can enjoy them and that they’re not mingled in with the trauma.
It’s been a long process of trying to even feel comfortable to set boundaries, when I was unfortunately trained to not have any boundaries, and then I was not allowed to have boundaries. It’s been a lot of extra work, but the more growth I have, the more empowered I feel to grow even more.
Anne: My Living Free Workshop is all about boundaries. What sets Betrayal Trauma Recovery apart from most therapists, C-SATs or clergy is that we look at exploitative material from a global perspective. And I appreciate every one of you who supports this podcast. By listening and sharing our articles on social media, commenting on our posts and tagging your friends. We’re on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube.
And we appreciate your support. It helps other people get educated every time you comment. And helps other people get educated about this. It makes a huge difference and helps isolated women figure out what’s going on. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. with me today.
Sadie: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much, take care.
Is My Husband Grooming Me? – Raven’s Story
Nov 14, 2023
If you’ve wondered, “Is my husband grooming me?” Raven talks about how her emotionally abusive husband groomed her from the beginning of their relationship.
One way to know if he’s grooming you is to see if he’s using any one of the 19 emotional abuse tactics. To find out, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
What Is Grooming?
No matter what kind of abuse, or who the abuser is, grooming occurs when an abuser creates a false sense of safety for his victim.
“Anything that someone does to make it look like he’s a knight in shining armor.”
Raven, Member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community Community
At the start of a relationship, an abuser might act very kind and caring to make a woman believe he is a safe and trustworthy partner. He might seem honest, loyal, and emotionally strong. But later, he may start cheating, lying, and making her question her own feelings or memories. This shows that the way he acted in the beginning was just a trick to control and manipulate her.
Anne: A member of our community, we’re going to call her Raven, is on today’s episode.
I sent a request on social media to have a member of our community. Come on the podcast to talk about grooming, and Raven was like, “Pick me, I want to talk about grooming.”
On our social media channels, you can interact with women who comment back and forth about what they think of these episodes. You can be anonymous on social media, depending on what your profile says.
If you’re not anonymous on social media and want to be anonymous, you can go to our website and search for this episode in the search bar. So for example, the title of this one is, “Is my husband grooming me?” So you can put that in the search bar on our website. This podcast episode will come up, and then on this particular episode, you can comment and interact anonymously with other women on our website.
Understanding Grooming
Anne: So you volunteered to talk about grooming. Thank you, what motivated you to respond to my request?
Raven: Thanks for having me. When I first saw the post, I actually didn’t know what it was. So I looked it up and I was like, Oh, and I think maybe some other women haven’t heard that term yet. And it’s something I would like to explore more.
Anne: So, obviously, we’re not talking about grooming in terms of brushing our teeth or combing our hair. But we’re talking about the kind of grooming that an abusive man does to give the impression he’s a really good guy. This is when he manipulates someone with a goal in mind. In this way, an abusive man uses words and actions calculated to create a feeling of safety, so he can trap his victim.
We’ll chat about grooming, and if she had any questions, I would answer them. I didn’t ask her to, but she did some research about grooming in preparation for our chat. So can you talk about some of the things you learned?
Raven: Basically, it’s anything someone does to seem like they’re the knight in shining armor. Doing good things to seem good and hide the bad. I’m confused about the difference between gaslighting and grooming, because they both make you seem like the crazy person or the bad person.
Anne: He wants to manufacture a persona that you judge everything by from then on. So if your baseline perception of someone, anyone, is that they’re an honest, kind, compassionate person. Then you filter their actions through that lens. So if your baseline perception of your husband is that he’s honest, kind, and compassionate, then you’re going to filter everything that he does through that perception.
Because if your baseline perception of your husband is that he’s a wonderful, loving person. If something weird happens, you’re going to interpret that as an “off day” or maybe going through something hard. It’s going to feel outside the norm. Then you’ll try to explain it according to the perception you have. So since he is such a good person, maybe he needs help. Maybe there’s something wrong.
Contrast that with thinking about how you would interpret someone’s actions, if your baseline perception were that they are a compulsive liar. If you have the perception that someone’s a compulsive liar, you’re going to be guarded and on the lookout, you’re not going to be vulnerable with them. This is why lying is emotionally abusive.
So abusive men have this awareness that they need to set this baseline perception, and that you’re going to filter everything through that. So the intent of grooming is to ensure that your baseline perception of him is that he’s the good guy. This is the type of manipulation that happens day in and day out all the time.
And if someone’s doing this from the beginning, of the relationship from the moment you meet them, they’re purposefully trying to control how you perceive them. And also control how everybody else perceives them. Rather than just trying to get to know you, rather than just being in a relationship with a real person.
A Real-Life Example Of Grooming
Anne: They’re intentional about the image they’re portraying. They’ll go way out of their way to set up this baseline perception. So, for example, I was talking to a friend, and she told me she was dating a new guy and he was divorced. He had an ex wife and children, and apparently he had a lot of money, and apparently his ex-wife was crazy.
So this is a red flag for me, like, “Okay, he’s probably an abuser.” So my friend got stuck about three hours away, kind of in the middle of nowhere. She had a flat tire around 10:00 PM. Now, if you want to be helpful, you could do a lot of things in this situation. Like if she called me. I have kids asleep, right? So I’d say, let’s call AAA. They can come out there, and if they can’t fix your tire, they can drive you to the nearest town. and you can get a hotel for the night.
Something like that would be a reasonable way to help someone out. And if she didn’t have money, he could have offered to pay for the hotel room. Something like that, but no. He put his sleeping kids in the back of his car on a school night, and drove three hours to get to her. So she had to wait three hours to get help.
She could’ve got help faster from someone else, and then drove her home three hours. She thought he was so incredible. When she told me the story, she was like, “He pulled out all the stops to help me.” And I was thinking, whoa, he pulled out all the stops to convince you he was a good guy. But good guys are logical. They would just call AAA.
Grooming vs. Gaslighting
Anne: They wouldn’t put a sleeping child in the back of the car and drive six hours. Through the whole night. And his plan had a added bonus, which was the next day he drove her back up the three hours. So he got to spend that much time with her. Which I think was his intent. That’s an example of grooming. Grooming is a form of gaslighting, but the victim always experiences grooming as positive. Grooming is when she feels good, amazing, loved, cared for and special.
Gaslighting can be either positive or negative. Gaslighting is when he purposefully alters her reality. And grooming, is that for sure. But gaslighting is also when he tells you that you’re having memory problems or crazy, or when he says, “What’s wrong with you, why would you think I would ever use pornograpy?” You don’t know me at all. He was trying to have her doubt, her perceptions of reality.
So I would say gaslighting can be positive or negative, and grooming is always positive. Do you feel like you’ve experienced that? I
He Groomed Me From The Very Beginning
Raven: Yeah, so we met and things went pretty fast. The night he asked me to be his girlfriend, I told him my life story. I was like, hey, here’s who I am. Here are some mistakes I’ve made. I don’t want to do that anymore. And like, take me or leave me kind of thing. And he said, “That’s in the past. I love you.”
He had a job at the training center for missionaries of my church, which you have to hold certain standards to keep. He never misses a Sunday of church, even if he has like a hundred and three fever. And he presented himself as this perfect person, and he was doing me a favor by loving me.
It was very apparent after we got married, more so because his parents would be like, Oh, all the girls were all over him, and you were lucky. And it worked well in his favor. When I found out about all his exploitative materials use a year into marriage, I told him I wanted a divorce.
And he called his parents crying. He didn’t know why I was acting crazy and irrationally over something so little. And then they said, maybe it’s because I was in a bad place spiritually. He was making it seem like I’m the one acting crazy and irrationally, because he would never do something like that. Because everyone’s always seen him as good spiritually.
Is My Husband Grooming Me? The Realization of Abuse
Anne: So you experienced grooming while dating, and then after marriage, he starts gaslighting you. And he’s also groomed everyone around him to perceive that his baseline character is a good guy. And you feel like he’s a good guy too, until you realize he wasn’t.
Raven: Well, so he overcompensates a lot. I’d always feel like well, he’s a great father and a great husband besides this. Because he would take the kids, and he does the cooking, and he does the cleaning. When I was angry and like yelling, he would be calm. And like, I understand everyone just saw that side of him that he had it all put together. He was the one holding this marriage together, because I’m falling apart.
Anne: Did you know that he was abusive, or did you just kind of feel that something was wrong?
Raven: So I heard the term abuse and I was laughing. I was like, my husband is not an abuser. And once I started reading about abuse. I was like, oh my goodness, he is. I had no idea at that time.
Anne: Yeah. This is a powerful truth about emotional abuse most women don’t know. And even when you didn’t know it was abuse, you were still resisting it. because you sensed something was wrong. You actively tried to protect yourself. And in your case, you had him start addiction recovery. Thinking that would create some safety. Take us back to that time. What was he doing while he was in “recovery” for his addiction?
Is My Husband Grooming Me? Yes
Raven: When he started working more on the 12 steps and was making amends to people, he would again, just like say all the right things. Without being honest and manipulating them to make him seem better than he was. And then when I’m not doing well, people would be like, Oh, but I thought you were better. Because he reached out to me and said he was sorry, and he made these amends and said he was going to get better.
So, like grooming others to believe he’s better or believe we’re better. And kind of not seeing why I’m still in a place where I’m at. So he was doing more stuff, and I told him I was like, “I see you’re doing more, but I still feel like something’s off.” And I just wanted to believe he was different.
And then yesterday, actually, he came to me and told me the last five months he’d been lying straight to my face. He’s been acting out the last five months actually a lot. Probably more than ever, and I kicked him out of the house this morning.
Anne: Oh, and here we are on the podcast. Are you okay? No, the answer’s no. So he’s answering the question, is my husband grooming me, with a yes.
Raven: I’m actually better than ever. I feel so free. In the beginning, I would check his phone whatever, and I started doing that just a little while back as something was off. But he shared this, and I actually feel empowered right now, but also overwhelmed.
Anne: Whoa, wow, I can’t believe we’re talking right now. There’s so much to process.
Fake Recovery & Vulnerability
Anne: You know, this fake recovery he did when he was lying straight to your face. It’s very similar to fake vulnerability that many of these abusers will do. Where they just share a little part of something, and then the victim’s like, well, there’s no way he was sharing something like that if he wasn’t honest. And it makes them feel close to him. Like, he’s a good guy because he’s open and honest. So fake recovery is similar to fake vulnerability. It’s manufactured to trap us, wow.
Raven: So the other night we had a talk with his parents. They’re toxic, and he was defending me. He was just saying, yeah, I’ve been abusive. He groomed so well that he’ll admit it. He’ll say all the right things. Like, yeah, I’ve been abusive and I’ve done this all while he’s still acting out. He’s still abusing me. So here he is being vulnerable and being fake vulnerable, like admitting he’s being abusive.
Anne: And people are thinking, oh, he’s admitting to what he did. So he must have changed. Why won’t she forgive him? That kind of thing. That’s super scary. People around you right now aren’t recognizing how dangerous your situation is. And they don’t know about grooming.
Raven: Yes, so he’s doing more work, and yet the other night he woke up and told me he groped me in my sleep. I had reached out to some friends and they’re like, that’s not normal. And so I told him he acknowledged it. So I told his parents, and they said, “Oh, honey, that’s normal, that’s part of the marriage contract.”
Struggling With Knowing It Was “Only” Grooming
Anne: What? Assault is part of the marriage contract?
Raven: But I was like, no, this is my body. And I still have a right to say when he can touch me and when he cannot touch me. And they said, “Oh, that’s probably why he has a pornography problem then.
Anne: Ahhh
Raven: So I’ve stopped talking to them for now.
Anne: You are very brave and you are strong.
Raven: Thanks, I’ve come a long way. Yeah, I think the hardest part is that I feel like I could never divorce him. Because i’m too scared of what he would do. I just worry, oh, well, who would he be with. And like why couldn’t I be like her, but right now I don’t want him either. So I’m in this tricky spot. How do you know when it’s time? Will I have the strength to do what I need?
Anne: One thing to remember right now is that even if you remain married, you still don’t have a say over who he’s seeing. Marriage doesn’t solve that problem. If the person’s not healthy, if they’re not willing to be honest. And if they’re not willing to be faithful to their wife. Then marriage isn’t going to stop them. So if that’s one of your worries, let me help you release that.
Is My Husband Grooming Me? Finding Strength & Clarity
Raven: I feel conflicted between almost ecstatic, like, I knew I was right, because something was telling me, but also kind of like, well, why didn’t I listen to myself sooner? And feeling like I let myself down, but I can accept that I was doing the best I could.
Anne: You absolutely were doing the best you could. You didn’t know that the answer to the question of, is my husband grooming me? was yes. You were resisting the best way you knew how. That’s why I wrote The Living Free Workshop. It was to help women who are always resisting abuse. They just don’t know exactly what it is, and they can’t anticipate what he’s going to do. That workshop takes you through what’s happening.
It helps you anticipate what he’s going to do next, so that you can protect yourself. For those who relate. If you’re asking, is my husband a good person? Or is he just grooming me? I’m so confused. You don’t know where to turn, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is a safe place for you to process this. It’s important that you process it on your own, without going to him with these concerns.
So that you can observe whether he is safe. Or if he is abusive. Because they are master manipulators and master groomers. And you want to recognize what’s going on.
Raven Could Use Prayers
Anne: Raven, thank you so much for being brave and strong and coming on today, despite this huge thing happening in your life right now. It is difficult to realize that your husband is grooming you.
Raven: Thanks for having me.
Anne: If you are the praying type.Raven could use your prayers. Since I recorded that podcast, things got very, very difficult for her. She actually spent some time in a domestic violence shelter. So just a call for prayers for her and all of us, as I pray for myself and all of you all the time. And for Betrayal Trauma Recovery to reach every woman in the world who needs to hear this message.
Anytime you rate the podcast. Anytime you follow us, anytime you comment on our social media channels, it helps those algorithms. So that other women can find us. Thank you.
How To Set Boundaries With My Husband – My Struggle
Nov 07, 2023
When Anne Blythe, M.Ed. first started podcasting years ago, she searched, “how to set boundaries with my husband?”. In this episode Anne analyzes one of her old podcast episodes. To point out to her years ago self, all the victim blaming she experienced.
In this early podcast episode, Anne shares her very first attempts at healthy boundaries. She refers to a 12-step program, “addict behaviors”, and addiction. Now, of course, we understand that abuse is NOT addiction, addiction therapists do NOT help abuse victims find safety, and 12-step programs can be harmful to women in abusive relationships.
True Boundaries Aren’t About Controlling Others’ Choices
“Every time my husband was abusive towards me, I thought that my boundary was giving him a lecture. Literally like a 40 minute lecture about how terrible things were and how I was feeling and what he should do. I thought that’s what boundaries were.”
Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG
Transcript: How To Set Boundaries With My Husband – My Struggle
Anne: It’s just me today. And I’m actually going to analyze in real time myself from years ago. You’ll hear me describe how I started my journey to set boundaries with my toxic ex. Despite my 12 step sponsor victim blaming me. Despite my 12 step group blaming me. So, if you are wondering how to set boundaries with a toxic ex, listening to this will give you some insight into my process. Of how I came to understand how to set boundaries with my ex.
I did S-Anon in the beginning of podcasting. It is a 12 step group for wives or ex wives of pornography addicts. I actually did an S-Anon group specific to my faith. SALifeline is this particular S-Anon groups name. And I was doing the 12 steps myself. I was actually a 12 step sponsor. And then I also facilitated a 12 step group.
You can hear that I talk about abuse, but I don’t quite understand it. This was before Betrayal Trauma Recovery existed. It was just a podcast. So way back then, I was podcasting in my basement. I hadn’t yet brought on coaches for our group sessions or individual sessions. And hadn’t created the Living Free Workshop. I was trying to figure all this out.
https://youtu.be/9aa5bgEY3bY
Initial Misconceptions About How To Set Boundaries With My Husband
Anne: Now, since this time, I have removed most of these episodes. I started podcasting in 2016, but if you look on Apple Podcasts, it looks like I haven’t been podcasting that long. Over time, I evolved and realized parts where I got it wrong. But I saved the audio recordings.
And that’s what you’re going to hear today. I actually altered my voice back then, because I was so scared. So hopefully you’ll hear the difference between me now and back then. And back then, I went by anon for anonymous instead of Anne. I actually, haven’t heard this recording in years. So, we’re going to go through this together. I’m a little nervous, but here we go.
From Years-Ago-Anne: So I didn’t know anything about boundaries before starting recovery. In fact, every time my husband abused me or every time he had a slip up, I thought my boundary was giving him a lecture. Literally, like a 40 minute lecture about how terrible things were, how I was feeling, and what he should do. I thought that’s what boundaries were.
Anne: So my first thought is thank goodness that I stopped disguising my voice because I sound like a chipmunk. When I’m talking about my recovery, I was recovering from his addiction. At this point, I think, I’m not sure. Let’s keep listening and see what I say.
Learning True Boundaries Because Of Husband’s Arrest
From Years-Ago-Anne: I have learned since then that is not what boundaries are at all. In fact, God was merciful to me, and he taught me about boundaries in an extremely traumatic way. My husband was arrested and given a court ordered, no contact order. That was my first boundary ever. God gave it. And then I had to decide what to do with that boundary, to keep it, to not keep it. And what that boundary meant.
I realized that my boundary is, keeping safe. And be safe while he continues to act out in this behavior. In my husband’s case, once he was arrested, he did not show any clear signs of recovery behaviors.
There were many things that he could have done. He could have texted every day, for example, and said, “What can I do today for the kids?” He did not choose to talk to my dad, apologize to my dad about some things. There were several things he could do legally.
Anne: At the time, I was so sad that he was not doing any of those things. https://www.btr.org/stop-emotional-abuse-from-husband/I wanted our family to be together. I was not thinking about how to stop emotional abuse from my husband. And was so depressed about it. I could not see how my life would ever get better. And now listening to myself, I’m thinking, thank goodness. I’m so grateful that I did not get groomed, because in my vulnerable state. My husband groomed me at that time by doing any of those things? I’m pretty sure his manipulation would’ve absolutely trapped me again.
All right. What else did I say?
Husband’s Lack Of Recovery Behaviors & My Knowledge Of How To Set Boundaries
From Years-Ago-Anne: He did not show any signs of that. He did not put forth a plan. “I realize this is what happened. I’m sorry, this is my plan for recovery. This is what I’m going to do to return to the house.” He never asked to return to the house. So, for me, there was no way that I could do that. Remove or amend the do not contact order to talk with him, because he was not showing any recovery behaviors.
Anne: When I say, he’s not showing any recovery behaviors here. I’m a little concerned for myself, because I’m thinking, are you just looking for him to check off some boxes? And again, just so grateful that he wasn’t checking boxes. That would have been really hard.
From Years-Ago-Anne: So what are boundaries? Boundaries are like fences between neighbors. They define the limits of a relationship. And provide safety and structure, and define appropriate and inappropriate engagement in the relationship. They delineate responses to inappropriate or unhealthy engagement or interactions.
So first, let’s define what boundaries are and are not. Boundaries are used to define the limits of the relationships. They are healthy responses to violations of self. Boundaries are in place as trust is rebuilt in relationships. Boundareis are protection against repeated harm. Boundaries are not punishments.
They are not methods of coercing or forcing behaviors. They are not a way to avoid dealing with pain. And boundaries are not used to emotionally disconnect or isolate.
Misogynistic Victim Blaming To Make Women Feel Defective
From Years-Ago-Anne: So, when I was not practicing boundaries, my fear, my character defects of fear or control would crop up.
Anne: There’s some misogynistic victim blaming. I was convinced that my fear and desire to be safe was part of a character defect . So that’s why you can hear me say my character defects of fear or control would crop up. I was taught that I was defective and sick in 12 step. And that my fear was a result of my sickness.
The truth is that I was actually super brave. I’m willing to let go of control, because I was observing him from a safe distance at this time, and I was really brave. So having my sponsor tell me that I had this character defect of fear and control when that was not the case at all. I was brave, and I had let go completely.
Also, if I had any fear or desire to get to safety, it was because of his abuse. Not because I had some kind of character defect. So there, I can see that I still haven’t quite figured that out yet. All right, go on.
From Years-Ago-Anne: And rather than set a boundary for myself and knowing how to set boundaries with my husband. That I would turn to my sponsor, do recovery behaviors, surrender to God’s will, and do self care. I would turn toward my husband and try and make him be safe. I literally got down on my hands and knees and begged him to love me many times. He looked at me and said, “No I won’t.” Or I begged him to be kind, and he said, “No, I’m not going to be kind to you.”
Resisting Abuse Is Not The Same As Becoming Responsible
From Years-Ago-Anne: And that only put me in a further state of stress. He was abusing me, and instead of detaching from my abuser, setting a boundary, and getting myself to a safe place. I could just continue to be abused by trying to force my abuser to be kind.
Because boundaries are important and knowing how to set boundaries with my husband is important. The opposite is responsible for his behaviors or recovery. It is wise to self assess occasionally and determine whether you’re crossing the line into becoming responsible. Some warning signs that you may be crossing the line to becoming responsible for your husband’s behavior. They provide constant reminders of the recovery behaviors he should do.
Anne: Wow, I mean I was resisting abuse at the time. I wasn’t becoming responsible for his behavior. I was trying to find my way out of this. And do safety seeking behaviors, resisting the abuse. Resisting the abuse is not the same as “becoming responsible.”
Misguided 12-Step Teachings Harm Victims
Anne: I’m almost wondering right now with this misogynistic sort of codependent, 12 step for pornography addict stuff that I was being taught. If their intent was to get me to “back off of resisting the abuse.” Because if I stopped resisting the abuse, he could do what he wanted and still live in proximity to me. I don’t know. I need to think about that. Let’s see what else I say about this.
From Years-Ago-Anne: I did that constantly. And I didn’t realize that I was taking responsibility for his behavior. his anger, his abuse. I thought I was just “helping him.”
Anne: You didn’t realize that you were taking responsibility for his behavior because you weren’t. You were trying to get to safety. And resisting the abuse by trying to help him stop.
From Years-Ago-Anne: Experiencing consistent intense emotional reactions to his lack of recovery behavior, absolutely.
Anne: Isn’t that just like the ultimate euphemism? Rather than receiving the right framework to understand this from 12 step. Due to their influence in my life, I was led to believe it was my fault. That I experienced consistent, intense emotional reactions to his lack of recovery behavior, rather than the truth. Which was that I’m experiencing consistent, intense, emotional reactions due to his emotional and psychological abuse.
There’s a huge difference in the way I was perceiving it then. And how I now see it.
Realizing The Truth About Abuse & Addiction
From Years-Ago-Anne: When he would get into his rage or be irritable, I knew it was a lack of recovery behavior. I didn’t have words for it back then, but I knew, “Oh no, something bad is coming.” I would get so much fear and so much worry that my family would be destroyed. I worried that something super bad was going to happen, and so I would go into control mode.
Anne: Wow, wow, so women who are out there who thought of these behaviors as their lack of recovery behavior. Or their childhood trauma coming up, or their personality disorder, or something that might be the case. But for us, we experience it as abuse. So the reality is when he would go into his rage or be irritable. Back then I said, I knew it was his lack of recovery behavior.
Wow, I mean, I did mention the word abuse, but it was not his lack of recovery behavior that caused the fear. But it was this abuse that caused the fear that all these euphemisms are incredibly mind-bending, but these same euphemisms are used in couple therapy, addiction recovery and in churches. Nobody, I guess even me, wanted to call it abuse back then.
So here I am saying, “Oh no, something bad is coming.” And I get so much fear, and then I say, “I would go into control mode.” I blamed myself, rather than realizing I’m abused. I have so much fear for good reason. This fear is not due to my character defect. God gave me this fear, He is warning me. Something bad will happen, get to safety. I was also incorrectly interpreting that.
Misguided Advice About Coping Mechanisms & How To Set Boundaries With My Husband
Anne: So 12 step was not telling me to get to safety at all. The only thing they’re doing is basically saying stop resisting the abuse. And I don’t think any woman in the world can stop resisting the abuse. There’s always going to be a way that she tries to figure out how to resist it, even if she can’t resist it overtly.
From Years-Ago-Anne: Punishing or shaming him into doing the things he has committed to do, basing your own commitment to recovery on whether or not he is doing his own recovery work, numbing out or disconnecting from your own emotions based on his behaviors.
Anne: Wow, so here I’m being taught that if I resist the abuse, I’m punishing or shaming him. That’s like the worst thing to say to a victim. You’re not punishing your abuser by resisting his abuse. You’re not shaming your abuser by resisting his abuse. And then basing your own commitment to recovery on whether he’s doing recovery work. I didn’t even need to be going to 12 step.
So for them to tell me like, you need to come to a 12 step, whether he does this. I don’t need to come to a 12 step at all, period. End of story. And then numbing out or disconnecting from your own emotions based on his behaviors. Since I don’t enjoy pain. I don’t think I’m going to look an abuse victim in the eye and tell her. Hey, when you’re in so much emotional pain that you can’t stand it.
Blaming Myself Even Though I Was Trying To Get To Safety
Anne: Too bad for you. Like for me, I tried not to numb or disconnect, but I needed a break from the pain. And so I would watch television. I would go out with my friends, like it’s okay to numb when the pain is so intense. That you can’t function. It’s okay to disconnect from your emotions for a minute. Oh, wow, this is really hard to listen to.
From Years-Ago-Anne: or controlling or manipulating. Now I did not know I was doing that at the time. I was. I just thought I was trying to serve my husband. And help him and express my needs, and there is nothing wrong with helping someone, or expressing your needs. Or stating to your husband what your needs are. My problem was that he was not safe in those moments and so I would be further abused.
Anne: I am so close, so close. I wasn’t safe in those moments. But instead, I think the cause is his lack of recovery behaviors, rather than realizing that the cause is his abuse. And 12 Step tells me that I’m controlling and trying to manipulate him. And I’m saying, I didn’t know I was doing it at a time. It’s because I wasn’t, he says I’m controlling but I’m not. I was trying to get to safety by communicating with an abuser.
It would have been nice to know that at the time. But I am learning about boundaries with my husband. So let’s see what else I say about boundaries.
Setting Boundaries With My Husband
From Years-Ago-Anne: So good boundaries will help you avoid these types of responses. Your own triggers in recovery and emotional responses sometimes lead to unhealthy coping. This could include emotionally disconnecting, punishing, controlling, or micromanaging others behaviors.
Personal boundaries, will allow you to make healthy choices in the face of powerful emotional triggers. I wish I knew that then.
Anne: Oh, the things you don’t know now even, wow. Why is this such a process? Why is this such a process to understand what’s going on? My poor self. There’s a euphemism again for abuse, powerful, emotional triggers. Those are just emotional and psychological abuse. Personal boundaries will allow you to make healthy choices in the face of abuse.
And then they want you to avoid your “unhealthy coping,” which would be emotionally disconnecting. No, you definitely want to emotionally disconnect from emotional abuse. Punishing, which I guess is resisting the abuse. Like I’m not going to talk to the abuser. Controlling, trying to actually do something that will get you to safety.
Like not being in his presence anymore. Or micromanaging others behaviors. The thing about micromanaging is that in this context, you feel bad. They’re making it seem like I’ve got some sort of character defect. Rather than me realizing he’s not safe. So. Being in proximity to him will be harmful to me. But it’s not because I’m trying to micromanage anything. It’s because I don’t know what else to do. And I’m resisting the abuse. And I just want to be safe.
Reflecting On Trust & Detachment
From Years-Ago-Anne: I wish I had been in recovery, but I wasn’t. And I am genuinely sorry. And I am looking forward to steps eight and nine, so that I can make amends for those things. I’m actually genuinely embarrassed that I participated in those behaviors. When I honestly and authentically thought I was helping him.
Anne: So adding onto the pain of being an abuse victim. I have compounded this guilt that I wasn’t in recovery for my sickness. That I had been participating in these like awful behaviors that aren’t awful at all. I wasn’t doing anything wrong. Then I say that I’m looking forward to making amends for resisting abuse and seeking safety.
And then I’m embarrassed that I was resisting abuse. And back then, I thought I was authentically trying to help him stop his abuse, by setting boundaries. So I was resisting abuse in that effort. What else did I have to say back then?
From Years-Ago-Anne: Examples of personal boundary statements and setting boundaries with my husband are, I can choose my responses to his slips or relapses. I do not have to allow my trauma to control how I respond. Instead of punishing or hurting him, I will take care of myself in a healthy way.
When he has earned my trust, I will share with him my feelings and needs. This was my main problem, that I did not trust my husband, especially when he was in addict mode, when he was angry or irritable.
Dealing With A Lack Of Trust
Anne: Another euphemism here, addict mode rather than abuse. So instead of saying the main problem was that he was abusive, and I didn’t trust him due to his abuse. Instead, I say, especially when he was in addict mode, when he was angry or irritable, which equates to abuse.
From Years-Ago-Anne: So I tried to make him trustworthy, to take responsibility for his actions. Or I tried to make him compassionate or kind, and that never worked. Instead, I needed to detach, set a boundary, take care of myself in a healthy way, and then see if he worked toward earning my trust.
Anne: The good news, I’m learning to set effective boundaries that I have perfected over the years. Now I’m completely safe. And I teach those in the Living Free Workshop. I was victim blamed. They told me that I was “allowing my trauma to control how I responded.” That was not happening.
I was interpreting it as some kind of character defect, rather than just seeing. Hey, I was resisting abuse. And I was doing the best I could, thank goodness.
Anne: It works, so I did that and that eventually got me to safety, even if I didn’t understand exactly what was happening. While being victim blamed in the process.
From Years-Ago-Anne: When I finally did that, let go, and observed from a distance to see if he would earn my trust again. He didn’t attempt to do that. From what I could tell, there were absolutely no attempts to earn back my trust.
Effective Boundary Setting Is Essential
From Years-Ago-Anne: Another one is that I can decide when and how I begin to trust him again. I will work on my own recovery, regardless of his commitment to his recovery. Instead of zoning out and emotionally disconnecting when I’m in pain, I will reach out and share with others in my life who are safe. I think that’s essential.
Also I would always reach out to my husband. I rarely zoned out or emotionally disconnected, but my husband wasn’t safe. So I reached out and tried to connect with someone who was emotionally unsafe, and that always put me in a very precarious position. I will choose not to be responsible for his choices.
And here’s one last example of a personal boundary statement with my husband. I can choose to love and accept myself even when his addiction affects the way I perceive myself.
Anne: The point of creating the Living Free Workshop was to explain effective boundaries in a way that was not victim blaming at all. That anyone enrolled could clearly see that all these things were due to his manipulation and lying, and that I wasn’t at fault for any of it.
Because as I explain, some of it is right on. The problem is I’m not identifying that the abuse is what’s causing me to react in the way I am. And my reactions are resistance to abuse, and that is healthy and good.
A Painful Story of Emotional Abuse
Anne: So I’m about to tell a story. That includes part of my faith, which is attending the temple. The temple is all about love. And an eternal family. And so when you hear me tell this story, we’ve just been to this worship service. That’s focused on how Christ helps us feel connected. And a few days before, we went to the temple when this incident occurred. Which you’re going to hear, happens.
But he hadn’t repaired in between. Also, before you hear the story, I hadn’t really come to grips with what he was doing here. Now I know that this was this flat out manipulation and psychological abuse. He was trying to mess with my head. But he wouldn’t just tell me openly what his intentions were or what was going on. He was trying to get me to react emotionally and psychologically abusively, because he had a goal in mind.
From Years-Ago-Anne: I’ve been thinking a lot about one night when my husband was extremely calm. He came to me and said, “I know you’ve asked me your whole marriage to tell you that you’re beautiful. And the reason I have not said that is because I don’t think you’re beautiful.”
So I should have detached right then. And I’m like, okay, he is very unsafe, but instead I decided to engage with him and fight him and say, that’s not true. You do think I’m beautiful. And then he said this, and this is the part that hurt me so deeply. He said, well, physically you’re beautiful, but your personality and who you are, make you ugly.
Continuing Emotional Abuse & Setting Boundaries
From Years-Ago-Anne: Your face when you are scared or frightened, and your personality and the way you interact with me. And who you are from the inside is completely, I can’t ever tell you that you’re beautiful. And I was absolutely devastated. That is the beginning of things getting really bad for us, and he never repaired that.
There was never a time. In fact, we went to the temple, and we did sealings. I don’t know how long after that. And we went to the celestial room, and we were holding hands. I just could not do it. Because here was a man, who could not tell me that I was beautiful, who did not think that my soul was beautiful.
Even if he didn’t like my hair, or he thought I was a little overweight, he could not bring himself to tell me that I was beautiful. To him, that was just totally lying, and I thought, I can’t be with someone like this. I remember standing up in the celestial room and walking off in pain and hurt. Completely and totally hung out to dry by my husband, who seemed fine and had never tried to repair that.
That was before I had boundaries. Now, I know that I would have set a boundary. And said, okay, when I feel safe and when you can see me, and when your perceptions of me are not abusive. Because those perceptions in and of themselves, that’s what made him abusive, are the way he perceived me. He perceived me a certain way, that I was trying to hurt him, or that my questions were shamey or whatever. And really, that was what propagated the abuse.
Abusers Lie On Purpose To Harm
Anne: That’s what I thought back then, but now I actually don’t think that, I think he was lying. I think he was lying on purpose to harm me. To get me to react so that he’d have an excuse to do what he wanted to do. I’m not sure exactly what he was doing, but he was leaving the house at night to perhaps solicit prostitutes or maybe having an affair.
I’m not sure. Because he would leave, and then come home, and I wouldn’t know what was going on. But now I know that he was lying on purpose. He didn’t necessarily perceive me that way, but he wanted me to believe he did. Because that would hurt me more than knowing that he was lying.
From Years-Ago-Anne: I needed to set a boundary and learn how to set boundaries with my husband and tell him he was not abusive. It takes a long time, and that has never happened. So I’m still setting and learning about how to set boundaries now. I realized I had never felt emotionally connected. Like, there had never been a time in our marriage where I had initiated intimacy because I felt emotionally connected.
I was doing it just to keep, you know, just because I thought he would want to. Not because I felt this deep emotional connection. And my husband rarely, rarely initiated. And when he did, it was because he wanted to. Not because he felt emotionally connected with me in the last 10 months. My husband has not been safe enough for me to be with or even communicate with.
How To Set Boundaries With My Husband: The Importance of Enforcing Boundaries
From Years-Ago-Anne: So implementing, enforcing, boundaries with my husband is important, and that’s the hardest part. It’s easy to think about what boundaries you’re going to have, it’s easy to tell someone what your boundaries will be, but it’s very difficult to actually enforce them. Like I said, I did not have any boundaries before my husband’s arrest.
I was working toward figuring out what those were, and then God stepped in and said, Boom! This is gonna be your boundary, and I’m so grateful that he provided a safe means for my escape from my abuser. So addicts hate boundaries, and then they set boundaries, usually to disconnect or isolate. I sponsor a woman whose husband, when he is in addict mode, says, “My boundary is I’m leaving and I’m not coming back until tomorrow.”
That’s abandoning your spouse. That is emotionally disconnecting and enables him to practice his addiction. Enforcing the boundaries is the hardest part. I was lucky enough to have the police enforce my boundary that I didn’t even know I had for me. Or the boundary that God created for me.
My husband was not choosing to protect me or our family, and it has been destroyed. He filed for divorce on Monday. Of course, that’s not protecting our family either. He’s continuing down the path of destroying our family. And I’m very sad, very, very sad. But that doesn’t mean I will change my boundaries to contact someone. Who is so unsafe that they would destroy my family. So, boundaries right now are essential for me.
Challenges In Wife’s Recovery Process
From Years-Ago-Anne: Defining and enforcing boundaries is often one of the more challenging aspects of a wife’s recovery process. However, becoming adept at boundary work is often the defining process for wives. I work with a few women in recovery. I’m the sponsor of three of them, and they’re learning how to set boundaries with their husbands and it’s very difficult.
Anne: I’m talking about setting boundaries with my husband in the context of 12 step. The wife’s recovery process is interesting to me. It’s defining her as a wife of this guy, rather than helping her view herself as independent. Which was important for me to do in the Living Free Workshop. To ensure that women know you don’t need to be defined by the fact that you are married to an abuser. A pornography addict, or a sex addict, you are you.
So this recovery program, that’s saying a wife’s recovery process. Rather than saying an individual’s recovery process, or the more accurate way to say it would be. An individual’s healing from abuse.
Setting Boundaries With My Husband: Ongoing Trauma & Healing
From Years-Ago-Anne: I’ve had a lot of women in the group tell me that when they learned how to set boundaries with their husbands. And they actually set them and kept them until they felt safe. Miracles began to happen. That is light, and light repels darkness. And it has been heart wrenching, and basically felt like the gates of hell were gaping after me. It was very difficult to maintain that my heart is so broken, and I am completely, totally devastated by that.
As my boundaries have improved, my sense of self has as well. My trauma is still intense, but I think it will begin to lose its power over time. As I practice recovery behaviors, it doesn’t always feel like it’s working. In fact, I’ve days lately where I’m just walking down the hall, and suddenly, it’s like someone punches me in the stomach. I start just howling, uncontrollably sobbing.
And I feel so alone, and I feel so completely abandoned by my husband and his choices. That he chose his addiction and his anger over his family. That he purposefully destroys our family. I feel so much trauma. And I do surrender, I surrender, I keep my boundaries. I still am in this trauma place.
And I have faith that if I continue to read my scriptures, pray, attend the temple, which I’m doing. If I continue to reach out, to do connecting behaviors with my sponsor, friends and family, which I’m doing. I will heal eventually. I went to yoga this morning, and I got a little mantra card from my teacher, and it said, “Your healing is already in process.”
My Life Is Completely Different Now
Anne: And it was, my healing was already in process. And even though I was not getting the education I needed about abuse at that time. I was starting to learn effective strategies in setting boundaries. That I used throughout the years. My life is completely different now. I feel such peace on a daily basis. But I remember the pain.
No matter where you are on your journey. We’re here for you.
3 Ways to Know He’s Love Bombing You – Laurel’s Story
Oct 31, 2023
After the emotional abuse seems to have stopped, is your husband vulnerable, loving, and making an effort to change, or is he love bombing you? Laurel is on the podcast today, talking about 3 ways to know he’s love bombing you.
1. Grooming With False Vulnerability & Image Management Is Love Bombing
Abusive husbands weaponize false vulnerability – they’ll abuse their wives, then reel them back in by love bombing them with false vulnerability. This can look like:
Confessing “sins”
Admitting to affairs, pornography use, dark secrets
Opening up about their traumatic past relationships or traumatic childhood
Admitting insecurities
Abusers use the concept of vulnerability to generate compassion from the victim to keep her in the relationship.
Saying his experience is the same dreams, or traumas of the victim
The abuser uses mirroring as a love bombing tool to generate feelings of intimacy and image management. This form of love bombing can make the victim believe he relates to her; it can manipulate her into feeling seen and understood.
3. He Lies With Intent, That’s Love Bombing
Love bombing is essentially a lie, because it’s a manipulation that he does to give you the impression that he’s the perfect guy for you.
But How Do I Know It’s Love Bombing, & Not Just Life?
Many victims want to give the abuser the benefit of the doubt:
Maybe he’s just going through a mid-life crisis
Maybe he’s just stressed out and that’s why there are these extreme ups and downs
Don’t all relationships go through periods of romance and connection and then pain?
Please understand that gaslighting, lying, secret pornography use, coercion, are NOT “just life”. They are NOT present in healthy marriages. If you are experiencing any of these abusive behaviors in your marriage, you are not safe.
If the abuser shows vulnerability, mirroring, lies and other forms of love bombing, in addition to overtly abusive psychological, emotional, and intimate behaviors, then you can be sure that the loving, vulnerable behaviors are simply his attempt to groom you into staying.
We believe you. We trust you. Listen to your intuition. Our Group Sessions can provide immediate support. We’re here for you.
Transcript: 3 Ways To Know He’s Love Bombing You
Anne: On today’s episode, we have a member of our community. We’re going to call her Laurel. She spent nearly two decades constantly scrambling to please and be enough for her never pleased and abusive husband. She vetted her partner for nearly a decade before marriage. And she believed he was the exact opposite because of love bombing.
And as she shares her story, I’ll point out three ways to know he’s love bombing you. Her husband progressively gaslit her into believing she was the source of every difficulty in their relationship. He used that against her and weaponized that against her. So she spent basically the entire marriage in therapy, working on herself to be enough. He was unfaithful. He also abused alcohol. All of that seemed to fuel his contempt for her.
A lot of us have that experience. Welcome, Laurel.
Laurel: Thanks, Anne.
Anne: So let’s go back to the beginning. When you’re vetting him for these years, looking for someone who’s not abusive, keeping in mind your own history of abuse from your own family. Talk about love-bombing at that time, what did that look like for you over those years?
Laurel: I actually did not know I was dealing with love-bombing. We were friends for seven years before we ever started dating. He used to call me on the phone and just leave a voicemail saying, “Marry me!”
And hang up and not say anything else. He always asked me to marry him, I thought he was just kidding. I thought it was a joke and I didn’t take it seriously.
1. Grooming With False Vulnerability & Image Management Is Love Bombing
Laurel: We continued our friendship, mostly long distance for several years. We met in college, but then went away to our various experiences after that. He continued leaving these voicemails for me, and would continue to be what I thought was a friend at the time.
When we started dating, he didn’t do those things. He seemed like he had become a mature person who was extremely patient, was very sure of himself, was deep into his relationship with God, and exploring his faith. He was kind outwardly to other people. His patience, calm and centering struck me the most. He handled adversity. And how deep it seemed he was becoming in his faith.
That’s what I thought of him when we started dating.
Anne: So you didn’t experience love bombing in the form of flowers or extravagant dates. But what you’re describing is your husband grooming you focused on image management, right?
Laurel: Yes.
Anne: So that’s the first way to know if he loved bombing you, if he’s engaging in a lot of image management behaviors. Making sure the people around him know that he’s “healthy, patient, and spiritual.”
Laurel: Correct, what I have learned since has helped put some pieces together for me. I see that he actually does love bombing in all his relationships. Whether they are professional in his artistic pursuits, day job work, or community relationships. I have seen him do this same pattern with everyone.
Anne: Does he use different things with different people?
Laurel: Yes.
https://youtube.com/shorts/yIFCa2zyO7Y
Grooming Begins With Image Management
Anne: I’ve noticed this too. For example, if someone’s interested in science, he’s becoming more in tune with the scientific community. And if someone is more interested in being a vegan, he’s learning more about the environment. Is he like a chameleon when he’s love bombing? He grows and learns the interests of the other person?
Laurel: Absolutely, looking back, I not only see he did that with me regarding my faith, but also in our artistic pursuits. When he was in graduate school. One of his primary professors and advisors was faithful and studying to become a religious leader in his community. Perhaps because of that professor’s interest, he became interested in his faith. Also, I think because of my interest in faith, he mirrored back that to me as values he held.
At the beginning, we talked about our faith and prayed together. After we married, we attended a marriage workshop together. The deeper we got in our relationship, the more I realized that wasn’t who he really was. At the end of our relationship, he actually blamed me for all the time he had ever spent in church. He made it out to be my fault, and that he should have been at home performing his artistic pursuits instead.
He said, “I did everything I was supposed to do. I prayed, gave money, served in the church in all these positions, and God didn’t give me what I wanted.” Talking about his artistic desires. He said, therefore, F God, and he basically abandoned his faith. Like God was a vending machine. I now wonder if his faith was ever genuine or if he was just mirroring.
2. Is He Mirroring You? That Is Love Bombing
Anne: So that’s the second way to know if he’s love bombing you. If you meet him, his spiritual traditions help you feel loved, cherished, and appreciated. But later, he turns those spiritual traditions against you. Then you can know that he was love bombing you.
I wonder if he almost thought he could convince God, like. Even though I don’t care about him. If I can like, lie to God and convince God that I’m obedient. Even though I’m not. If I can convince God I’m this certain type of person, he’s going to give me these blessings. And then, of course, he doesn’t get the blessings of obedience because he’s not actually being obedient.
Laurel: Correct, that behavior is consistent throughout all the relationships I saw him hold in jobs and the arts. And clearly with me and with his faith.
Anne: So his grooming was systematic.
Laurel: Yes, I was a little smarter toward the end of the relationship. That things were really off. I was starting to google all these things. I’m starting to read narcissism, narcissism, narcissism. I’m like, “What’s going on here?” I found some questionnaires online for narcissistic husband behaviors and relationships. I stripped the title off, separated the questions out, and put them into an Excel spreadsheet. We both took the questionnaire.
He self-assessed as very high in narcissistic behaviors and relationships. And admitted in that questionnaire, he lied to people in his professional career. About his successes and qualifications, to impress them and get ahead. Which was a shock to me. I didn’t know that he did that.
3. He Lies With Intent, That Is Love Bombing
Laurel: He lied with intent. On the questionnaire, there were direct questions about stealing, hiding money, and other things. He assessed at a problematic level. It would have been much higher if he had told the truth about all the things I later found out.
Anne: And that’s the third way to know that he is love bombing you is if he lies with intent. Love bombing is essentially a lie, because it’s a manipulation that he does to give you the impression that he’s the perfect guy for you. With that testing, it’s interesting, because you think because he lies so much, he would just also lie on the test. But since we don’t diagnose here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
I don’t know how those tests work. When women come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery and say, “Hey, these are the behaviors I’m experiencing.” We don’t ever worry about the “cause.” Because we know the effect is abuse. Our job at BTR is to help women start making their way to emotional and psychological safety.
How did you feel about that when you got that test? Were you like, um, why didn’t he just lie on the test if he lies everywhere else?
Laurel: He said he did some surprising things. Especially the one about lying professionally to other people. That’s where I started to get a clue that things were more wrong than I thought.
Anne: But he wanted you to know that.
False Vulnerability: The Illusion Of Honesty
Laurel: Yes. That’s a very interesting point, because he could have lied more. He lied about a lot of the things that had to do with me specifically, but did admit some of the others. We can only speculate why he did that and what the motive was. We obviously don’t know what issue he actually has going on. This is a pervasive pattern of behaviors.
Anne: Absolutely, I wonder if it’s a false vulnerability?
Laurel: Hmm, that’s interesting.
Anne: So many women will tell me, “He did say he had an affair with his previous wife, or he did say he struggled with exploitative material in high school.”
They feel like he’s being honest, because if he were lying, he wouldn’t have said that. It’s like you can’t know if they’re being honest unless they tell you a little bit, because they have to seem a little bit vulnerable. So they pick and choose what they want you to know. Is this a pseudo vulnerability to groom some more? This is the acceptable form of lying, “I would never lie to you, but I have lied to these other people.” I’m going to admit to that, it will make me seem more vulnerable.
Laurel: I think that’s likely the case. I look back at the things he admitted before we ever started dating. There was a lot of poor me victimhood, how this or that relationship didn’t work out. It was more like a hapless I’m just not lucky with relationships kind of victimhood.
Anne: Rather than an outright, “My previous girlfriend abused me.”
The Cycle Of Grooming & Abuse
Laurel: Correct, he had a lot of resentment for other people who had money, wealth, and status. People who had the kinds of professional successes in the arts that he wanted to have. I did see a lot of that, but he masked the other things.
Anne: You’ve got grooming while you’re dating. Then you marry and continue to have grooming episodes. The grooming periods don’t look like abuse at the time. They feel normal and good. If a hundred percent of the relationship was awful and felt terrible. Women could pretty much figure out what was going on sooner rather than later. But they don’t recognize that those good times are grooming and love bombing in their abuse.
When do you start to see changes in how he’s treating you and what did that look like?
Laurel: He made sure to tell me it was okay not to be perfect all the time when we were dating. He encouraged me to be myself, how it was okay to make mistakes. And he allowed me to show my vulnerabilities. He treated me differently after we married.
For example, within the first month of marriage, we lived with his parents in an extra space they had. I recall him coming back home from work one day. I was working on my thesis at the time. Apparently, I had not cleaned the room to his standards. He was very angry, disapproving, and withholding from me. He surprised me because he was a different person than he showed me for several years.
That’s my first inkling, because of love bombing, that things were not the way they had been before we got married.
The Reality Of Long-Distance Relationships
Anne: Your relationship was mostly long distance before you got married?
Laurel: Yes, it was. We met in college. We knew each other for two years before I stayed to continue my undergrad and he went on for graduate school.
Anne: This happened with my relationship. I knew him online and through phone calls for three months, and then I knew him in person for two months before I married him. The total was only five months. I realized when I thought he’s changed, it wasn’t that. I was never actually around him in person a lot. And what he said was different than what he did.
He’d say, “It’s so important to do this.” But when he was actually there, he didn’t act according to the way he had talked. Is that your experience too?
Laurel: I only saw that change happen after marriage, after love bombing. Like you, we had many telephone conversations, wrote letters, and wrote emails, because that was way back in the day. We didn’t have all this digital, video and all the other things we have now. He walked the talk during the short periods we were together before we married. Again, this is impression management, like you said. And after we married it all changed.
Another point you made is that absolutely no woman would want to stay in a marriage where it was terrible all the time. Because it would become obvious to us that something is wrong. The good periods of love bombing are as critical to the abuse cycle as everything else.
Grooming Masks Intent & Makes Love Bombing Believable
Laurel: There were plenty of good periods where it seemed like, Oh, we’ve turned a corner again. He’s not raging at me anymore, he’s not throwing things, and he’s not breaking things. While there were some overt things, it was the covert stuff in between, love bombing, I didn’t recognize, and the good periods helped mask that.
Anne: The grooming, doesn’t just help to mask that it’s their intent.
Laurel: Correct.
Anne: Those good periods are abuse because it’s not genuine. The intent is to control and control the narrative. That’s so heartbreaking to realize. A stab in our hearts when we realize that those good times weren’t actually good for us. They were bad for us.
Laurel: In my particular situation, it was painful for me to look back. I realize the love and relationship I thought I had weren’t reciprocated in a loving way. Looking back, it’s painful to say I don’t think my husband ever loved me the way I perceive love should be.
Anne: Well, because we loved them, it’s hard to understand.
Laurel: Correct.
Anne: It’s like a true, real love. There was no grooming on our part. We were just being ourselves.
Betrayal: A Hidden Struggle
Anne: When did you realize he was using exploitative material?
Laurel: I did not see any evidence of any kind of issue with or problems with intimacy. In fact, he told me he was intentionally celibate for seven years for one period of his life, because that was important to him. I had no idea that was going on until we had moved to another state and no longer lived with his parents.
As I worked on my thesis at night, I looked up something on the internet. I started typing an address and found this huge, long list of all these site’s addresses that started with the same character I started typing. I was horrified, shamed and embarrassed. Because I felt like something about me must be wrong. That I’m not enough for you to need to look at it.
I was also upset because that computer held all our professional artistic work. It held my thesis, and his professional artistic work. If it got infected with something from one of these sites, we could lose everything. I approached him about it, we had this conversation, and he was angry at me, which was interesting.
The exploitative material thing came up on and off for years. He would go through periods where it seemed like he wasn’t using it. Then, he would start using it again, and I’d find more stuff on the browser.
Abusive Behavior Patterns With Exploitative material Use
Laurel: Eventually, I said, “Look, you can’t continue to use a computer that also belongs to me. If you need to do this from time to time, that’s not okay with me, and I still have a problem with it. It still makes me feel terrible about myself as a wife, and that I’m not good enough. I can’t put my own artistic work at risk. You need your own laptop.”
From that point on, I didn’t see what he was doing. I noticed a pattern during these periods. When he started using, he would start getting very cold towards me. He would be hostile. He had a lot of contempt. His mouth was in a tight line. Most of the time when he was around me, his body was tense. His fists clenched sometimes.
He was clearly disgusted and disappointed that he was in my presence. And that I was his wife. There was so much anger and contempt. It was palpable for periods of time whenever he started using.
Anne: You use this phrase I love: The Reconciliation Industrial Complex. I think that’s an awesome phrase. Sometimes I call it The Addiction Recovery Industrial Complex. Is it an addiction recovery situation, or through your church, or therapy?
Laurel: We were married for 18 years at that point. I had lost both of my parents very close together. I had dealt with both of their illnesses and deaths in a very short span of a few years. While I went through all this, instead of being a loving, supportive husband. He used exploitative material, cheating, gaslighting me about it, and blamed me.
The Reconciliation Industrial Complex: A Cult Experience
Laurel: The Reconciliation Industrial Complex happened for me after he moved out. He left to go be with his mistress, who was his direct employee.
I had just lost my father shortly before. And I was dealing with a nightmare of an estate situation, and literally couldn’t manage another loss. I couldn’t handle the absolute destruction of my entire life. Losing both parents, losing my childhood home, having this nightmare going on, and then losing my marriage. And losing my new home that we had just bought together.
It seemed unmanageable, so I involved myself with this group that I found online for saving marriages. I ended up basically sucked into what I would call a cult for about a year and a couple of months.
My husband’s behavior, though, continued to escalate during this period. It became more and more apparent to me how dangerously abusive he was. That’s when I started to wake up about this Reconciliation Industrial Complex. They minimized a lot of the behavior, and they gaslit me. It was a terrible experience overall.
Anne: Was this a Christian organization?
Laurel: They claim to be, yes.
Anne: Was it therapeutic? Or more like God, Biblically centered, Christ can do everything sort of thing?
Laurel: Funny you should ask. They say they are not a faith-based organization, but they are. They preach a lot of faith-based stuff.
Faith-Based Gaslighting: The Damaging Doctrine & Love Bombing
Laurel: What’s interesting is this experience hooked into some of the prior gaslighting and love bombing I experienced as a Christian woman. Telling me how I need to do and be in my marriage. There was a particular book I won’t mention I found damaging.
Anne: So we have context, even though we’re not saying the title of the book. This book is about how if you pray enough, you can solve any problem, essentially.
Laurel: That’s the gist of it. “Wives, if you just fast and pray enough for your husbands, then you can fix all his problems: with his job, his disappointment in life, his self-esteem, and everything. It’s your responsibility as a wife to make things okay for him. One of the primary ways is by praying right. If you don’t pray right, you still have problems. So if you still have problems, you must not be praying right.”
Anne: Yes.
Laurel: They said biblical quotes and references about how wives need to behave in marriage. It’s basically teaching women they need to be doormats. They need to put up with all this terrible behavior, because if they hold their husband accountable or say anything to him, they’re just going to chase him away.
The responsibility is all placed on wives to just figure out the puzzle of the abusiveness. That is the cheating. That is everything else that goes along with that.
Anne: It’s actually a manual for how to comply with abuse.
Laurel: Yes, that’s what this group was. It was so damaging for me, but I didn’t see it at the time. Here’s another thing that’s important.
Covert Abuse: Recognizing the Signs
Laurel: Because I experienced a lot of covert abuse, I didn’t understand I was in an abusive marriage. I knew some of the rage attacks, the name calling, and the other things were abuse, but most of the abuse was covert. I didn’t know what it was. He spent a lot of time in the marriage, telling me there was something wrong with me. He convinced me I needed therapy, and my history of childhood abuse made me this and made me that.
I spent almost the whole marriage in therapy, like you said, and yet it was still never enough. I was constantly “pretzeling” myself to do whatever I needed to be enough and be right. This reconciliation group fed into this because it capitalized on the belief you need to do and be enough for this abusive partner. Now they say that they don’t support abuse in marriage, but they absolutely do.
Anne: Because nothing is abuse, apparently. “This doesn’t apply to you, if you’re abused. That’s a different situation. In our group, we’re reconciling. If he’s unkind or if he lies a little bit, you just need to be safer so that he feels like he can tell the truth.”
Laurel: Oh my gosh, yes, that’s exactly what they said.
Anne: They’re trying to say that everything you’re experiencing isn’t actual abuse. This probably wouldn’t be right for you if you were actually abused. But since you’re not, you just need to be better.
Laurel: You need to work on your spiritual health. You need to work on your emotional attractiveness, your spiritual attractiveness, your physical attractiveness. You need to never hold him accountable.
Reconciliation Groups Enable Abuse
Laurel: You don’t want to say anything that’s going to upset him, or else it’s your fault that he doesn’t come home.
Anne: Women who aren’t being abused don’t need to go to stuff like that. That’s the crazy thing. Generally speaking, women in healthy marriages who feel loved, appreciated, and cherished. They don’t go to reconciliation camps.
Laurel: Correct.
Anne: They’re not trying to get addiction recovery services. They don’t know that most of the population of women they’re “trying to help,” are abuse victims.
Laurel: These folks say, “if you’re in an abusive marriage, we’re not talking about you.” Actually, they are enabling that same abuse.
Anne: I find that same trouble with real harm. For example, if a rape victim says, “I was raped.” People say things like “Oh, he was your husband? You didn’t scream, yell, and scratch his eyes out? You weren’t actually raped, and you saying you were raped hurts real rape victims.”
As if there’s some real rape victim out there who has experienced it and you did not. So you didn’t experience a real rape when you did. It was real rape. It was real abuse.
Saying, “We don’t want to call that abuse. This is just regular marriage stuff. If we do call it abuse, that’s going to hurt real abuse victims.” In the meantime, they’re hurting actual abuse victims in trying to discount the abuse they’re experiencing.
The Realization: Understanding Abuse & Love Bombing
Laurel: I thought because he hadn’t hit me yet, it wasn’t actual abuse. I was so ashamed and gaslit. I believed he had been this amazing, beautiful, kind, strong, patient person. It was love bombing. I turned him into an abusive person because I’m messed up. It was my fault. The real him was the him I thought I married, the him I dated. He told me all the time it was because of my trauma and my past. He was the way he was.
I never told anyone during my marriage about any of the things that went on at home, including the overt rage attacks where he would throw things, break things. Stuff clearly abusive. I didn’t say anything until after he moved out. But I told one person just a few small things, and that person said, “Oh my gosh, that’s abuse!”
I thought, “That can’t be true. That can’t be right. I can’t have been in an abusive marriage.” I was so confused, I started looking stuff up, and I got even more confused. I called the hotline and shared with them a few of the things I’d been through. “Oh my gosh, this is abuse.” When I shared more things, they said, “This is abuse.” That’s when I came to understand how abusive my marriage was.
Anne: I wish, instead of the reconciliation stuff, the addiction recovery stuff, the addiction recovery. Or any of that, they would first do a big introduction to what abuse is. And then, stay there. Don’t ever go anywhere else. Just stick with this is what abuse is. This is how it impacts you. This is how to set boundaries around it.
“Accidental” Abuse
Anne: It’s abuse, there’s no other way around it. It is love bombing. There’s no way to avoid it. You can’t avoid it by calling it something else. It is just abuse. I’m so grateful that you got to that point. You mentioned that one of the videos at Betrayal Trauma Recovery helped you recognize covert physical abuse. Can you talk about that?
Laurel: I didn’t know that violence against objects was part of physical abuse. I heard in that video, that one thing.
Anne: Was this on TikTok or on Instagram?
Laurel: I saw it on Facebook, but I think you’d posted it to multiple platforms. Some of the things mentioned in that video I made notes about that happened to me. They were “playing,” wrestling, grabbing, tearing my clothing, and tickling when I asked him to stop. He kissed me forcefully at times so that I couldn’t breathe, and I asked him to stop. And sometimes hurt me in his “play.”
He had “accidents,” and claimed he “accidentally” stepped on me. It happened repeatedly or “accidentally” running into me. It got so bad I started being hypervigilant about being aware of where his body was in space at all times. I was constantly afraid he would hurt me by stepping on me or running into me. Looking back, I noticed he didn’t seem to have that problem with anyone else, not in the community, not at work. I never saw it happen.
Anne: People didn’t know him as a klutz or clumsy?
Laurel: No, I never saw him at any of the arts things, running into people. He only did the behavior with me. That was eye opening to me when I heard about some of that in the video.
Intentional Harm & Physical Abuse
Laurel: He kept running me off the road when we were on a trip. I would say to him, “You’re running me into fire hydrants, into trees, into this stuff. Could you please leave a little more space for my body so that I could have enough space to walk?”
But he kept doing it. I realized it was intentional. The fifth or sixth time I had to say, “Hey, it’s still happening. Could you please leave enough space for my body?” We would be having a disagreement when he was driving the car. He would start getting really angry, start accelerating and driving in a way I thought he would wreck the car with me in it. He was breaking and damaging my things.
And he also admitted intentionally exposing me to germs to make me sick. I have some immune issues, which he knew before we ever married. I said, “If you’re sick, please don’t kiss me. If you have an intestinal illness, please don’t handle food.”
But he did it on purpose and lied about not feeling well or handling food anyway, and then I would be sick for weeks. He wouldn’t feel bad, except maybe a day or two. He also admitted before he moved out that he intentionally went around the house wiping germs on the surfaces of things. That I had to handle for my health care needs to make me sick.
There were situations near the end where he intentionally locked me out of the house despite asking him to stop doing it. So he admitted to many things like that.
Intentional Harm: The Admission Of Guilt With Love Bombing
Anne: When you say “admit,” I think this is an interesting concept, because they do everything with a goal in mind. They have an outcome that they’re going for. So when they “admit” something, I believe it’s intentional to get some type of result. In that case, it sounds like he wanted you to know he was doing that. Either to hurt you, or to get you to kick him out, or some type of goal. Do you have any idea of what his goal was in telling you?
Laurel: I didn’t at the time, but looking back on it, I believe he was trying to control me. He was cheating with his direct employee at the time. This was just after I had lost my father and mother. He didn’t want to be the “bad guy.”
I think he wanted me to be the “bad guy” and tell him I wanted a divorce. So he wouldn’t have to feel guilty or bear any responsibility. Like you said earlier about the impression management and love bombing, it was important to him to be perceived by the community as a good guy. I believe he was trying to force my hand so he could say he was the victim of the whole situation.
Anne: That’s what happened to me. I think he was lying about exploitative materail, and then suddenly he said, “I used pornography today.”
I thought he was using anew, that he had been “sober,” for years. Then suddenly he’s using it again. I don’t think that was the case.
The Strategy Behind Admissions: Control & Manipulation
Anne: I think he was using it the whole time, but then there was a strategic reason in his mind why he was telling me. It’s the same thing. The reason was he wanted me to kick him out. Everything they say, it’s important to think, “What is the goal here?”
Rather than thinking, “He admitted to this, so maybe he’s changing.” No, think, “What is his aim in doing this? What does he want the end result to be?”
When they get to the point where they want to move on, they want us to be the ones to kick them out. They don’t want to do it because then they’d look like the bad guy.
Laurel: In addition, he wanted to make sure I understood he thought I was a piece of garbage. There were many other things he did to make it clear to me that he was discarding me, throwing me away. I was trash, I meant nothing to him, and the past 27 years we’d known each other were meaningless. He made that clear over and over. I was trash and he was throwing me away.
Anne: For our listeners, we’re intentionally keeping this vague to protect Laurel. In your artistic endeavors, can you talk about how he used you and his control of your artistic projects and your ideas? How that was also an element of the abuse?
Laurel: We went to school together for the same artistic pursuits. I was in one particular vein of that pursuit, he was in another. However, it was the same type of education.
Uncredited Artistic Contributions
Laurel: We both went on to graduate school for the same artistic field. When we got married, I performed some of his things, and he seemed to appreciate that. When I had a physical issue that caused me to not do that as often, suddenly he started withholding from me.
For example, I was expected to make posters announcing his events, do all this graphic design work for him and to use that to serve him. I was also expected to attend the events, which I was glad to do because I wanted to support my partner. I was also asked to work at them like an employee, which also didn’t bother me at the time.
But he did not give me credit for any of the graphic design work I did. He used a lot of my graphics work for his own artistic things, and he did not credit me on them.
Anne: Did he claim they were his?
Laurel: He just didn’t say whose they were at all and who did all this beautiful work for him. After he left, I said, “I would like you to please include a credit on all my things I have created that you’re using. That includes all paper copies, all digital copies. All you have to do is add a tagline with my copyright, and that’s it.”
Rather than do that, he just deleted everything, as if I had never existed. Instead of giving me credit for my work, he had to erase me, which I found to be very telling.
Living With Disapproval Not Love Bombing
Laurel: We lived together at home for almost two decades. He would hear me doing my art in the home, and he would not encourage me. He also would not come to my events. I attended basically all his. In many years, I had sixty four events, and he came to three or four. All these combined messages told me my work wasn’t worthwhile. It wasn’t good enough. If it were, he would not only attend, but also say it was good.
It was clear he disapproved and that it wasn’t good enough. He did not use love bombing then. The subtle looks of lips pressed together when I’d be making my art at home, no compliments, no support.
Anne: My guess is you’re way better than he is.
Laurel: I guess that’s a matter of opinion, thank you.
I will say as an aside, because the gaslighting was so bad, I started asking a few other people. I said, “This is what I’ve come to believe about my artistic work. So I need to check in with you, because you have hired me to do this and that. Is that what you think of my work?” And one woman said to me, “Laurel, would this organization I represent have kept hiring you all these years, if you were that terrible?”
I had to laugh because I realized, “You know what? You’re right. That’s absurd. I clearly am good enough!”
Anne: Heaven forbid he let you know any bit of that because then you might be equal, right?
Power Imbalance & Exploitation
Anne: There has to be the power imbalance for abuse to occur so he’s always got to keep you lower.
Laurel: You can’t see me waving my arms right now, because it’s literally like you climbed into my brain and pulled those exact words out of my own thoughts. That’s exactly what it was. He needed to be the person who was thought of by everyone as the artist in our home. He had to keep me down to pump himself up.
Anne: I’ve thought about this a lot, it’s like they want to just mine you for resources.
Laurel: Yes!
Anne: They’re trying to mine you for resources, exploit you, and want to have power over you. If you were so terrible and awful, and you had nothing to give them. Then they wouldn’t want to exploit you or mine you for resources. So they have to somehow live in these two worlds where what you have is worth exploiting, but they’re never going to let you know.
Laurel: A hundred percent. That is exactly what happened in my marriage. He spent a lot of time telling me before we got married how amazing I was, which is probably part of the love bombing and grooming. But I didn’t know that at the time. He wrote this big long letter to a faculty person about those who “have it” and those who “don’t have it.” That he’s a person who has it, and what it’s like for people who have it.
He also wrote what happens when you think a person has it and then you find out that they don’t. Then you’re so upset because they betrayed you and they lied to you.
The Illusion Of “Having It”
Laurel: That’s how he treated me after we got married. As time progressed, he told me over and over through his withholding and disapproval that I had misled him, I never had it. I was just a horrible liar.
Anne: You tricked him into thinking that you were super artistic and you weren’t. You didn’t have that spark.
Laurel: That’s right. What a horrible person I am.
Anne: That’s funny because that’s something you can’t self-assess.
Laurel: Yeah, it’s funny that.
Anne: You could have it or not have it. A lot of people who don’t have it think they do, i. e. your ex.
Laurel: He was convinced he had it and knew who had it and who didn’t. He was the authority.
Anne: We’ve mentioned a few times the abuse you suffered growing up. That has nothing to do with his abuse and love bombing of you. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we do not believe there is anything about a child being abused, which would mean she deserves abuse as an adult. Or she picked someone on purpose, or she’s some kind of magnet for abuse, or anything like that.
We all know someone who has suffered childhood abuse, grown up, and married someone who is awesome. That just has nothing to do with it. That being said, abusers like to use anything they can as a weapon, including past trauma, therapeutic modalities, spiritual stuff, scripture. Specifically for you, when we’re talking about this covert abuse, I want you to talk a little bit about how he used your past trauma to hook you in. Degrade you, and how that was especially difficult.
Childhood Trauma As A Weapon To Use With Love Bombing
Laurel: Because I experienced physical abuse in my childhood, he used that to intimidate and control me. He would use rage attacks, where he would scream, curse, call me horrible names, throw things, and pound on objects. Whether that’s a wall, a door frame, the steering wheel, or a dashboard. He would be close to me with his fists all clenched up, like he could just lose it at any time, and I could be next.
There were times when I said to him, after the fact, “This behavior triggers my childhood abuse trauma. Could you not do that? Let’s find some other way of communicating or managing your anger or whatever’s going on.”
Instead of saying what a good partner would say, and not because of love bombing, which is, “Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. I’m going to fix that. I won’t do that again.”
He took that as a note. Then, he used that more and more often. So those periods of violence accelerated over time instead of stopped. That was one of the ways it showed up.
He used my childhood abuse to make me believe I was crazy and unstable. I had problems with anxiety, and there’s nothing wrong with the world I’m living in. It’s just my anxiety when it was actually a lot of his behavior. Anything I came to him with, he would do it more and use it as a tool.
We had a long conversation where I explained why it wasn’t okay. When you’re cleaning the basement. You don’t put the old computers on the lawn, because someone could steal them and access our personally identifiable information. He went ahead and did it.
Broken Promises & Manipulation
Laurel: We had agreed to have children before we got married. I’m glad now that I didn’t have children with him. We had agreed to wait about five years, and about five years into that discussion, said, “I think it’s time we start talking about this.”
He said, “I have to work a day job and do my art. I don’t want to spend any time doing anything else. So no, I’m never having children, and that’s why.”
When we continued talking, he turned it around and later said to me, “The real reason is because of your childhood abuse history, you wouldn’t be a good mother. You would abuse the children, and you wouldn’t do anything, and I would do everything. You would be a terrible mother.” He told me I’d be a terrible mother because of my childhood abuse experience.
Anne: I’m so sorry.
Laurel: Thank you. That was really horrible.
Anne: That is horrible and absolutely not true.
Laurel: Thank you. I think I would have been a great mother.
Anne: Yes.
Laurel: Yeah.
Anne: Yeah, didn’t he also do that with housework? He said he would have to do everything, but then he didn’t do the housework, or if he did, he resented it.
Laurel: That was a pattern that came up throughout our marriage. He would go through a period where he would become stressed about something, and he would turn to me and say, “You don’t do anything! I do everything and you don’t do anything.”
It became such a pattern I finally said to him, “It really hurts my feelings because you don’t acknowledge all these things I do to contribute. You don’t appreciate the work I do.”
The “Hobby” Argument & Love Bombing
Laurel: He kept doing it, and he started doing it more and more. Toward the end of the marriage, he actually said the work didn’t count, because some of it I also enjoyed and therefore it was a hobby.
Anne: Oh, like cleaning the toilet?
Laurel: Like doing stuff.
Anne: “It’s a hobby for you.” I heard that too. Listeners, listen up. This is a nugget for you too. They don’t think it counts.
Laurel: If you enjoy it.
Anne: If they say you enjoy scrubbing the toilet.
Laurel: It was a “hobby,” so he said it doesn’t count toward the household budget of labor.
I was like, “You know what? Maybe something’s wrong and I am doing less. I’m gonna put it on a spreadsheet, and I’m gonna figure it out. Maybe I need to step it up.”
What I realized was that I’m actually doing more than he was, as far as hours per week of household labor. When I shared that with him, he said, “What do you want, a parade?”
I said, “No, I don’t want a parade. I just want you to stop attacking me and saying I don’t do anything.”
He said, “okay.”
I was like, “Oh, okay, that’s good.”
Then a couple of days later, that’s when he pulled the, “I thought about it and this is a hobby, so it doesn’t count toward the household budget of labor.” So he still “did everything” and I did nothing.
Agreeing With Emotional Manipulation Tactics
Anne: Here’s another nugget for all of our listeners. I don’t know if this would work, but I want you to consider it. I want you to think about it. When they say , “What do you want me to do? Throw a parade?”
Or when they say, “You don’t care about what people think of you!”
Our inclination is usually to defend ourselves, right? Of course you don’t want a parade. So of course you’re going to be like, “No, I don’t want a parade.”
Or, “No, I care about what people think, but I’m just not interested in wearing makeup every day.”
When they say that, just agree with them. “So what do you want, a parade?” Be like, “Yeah, I do!”
Laurel: Nice.
Anne: “I do want a parade. Let’s do it!”
Laurel: Yes. I want a full brass band.
Anne: Or if they’re like, “You just don’t care what my mom thinks.” Be like, “I don’t. You’re right.”
Laurel: I love it. I think that’s a great approach. I wish I had thought of it at the time. “Yes, I do! I want a full brass band, 76 trombones. Bring it.”
Anne: Yeah, just agree with them sometimes in the moment. I’m not saying all the time, but in those moments where the reason they’re telling you something is to manipulate you to do the opposite thing.
“You don’t care about my mom, and she wants to stay here.” Just say, “you’re right, I don’t care.”
Love Bombing With The Score Sheet Mentality
Laurel: I love that. I wish I’d had that tool at the time, because what came next was he was so stressed out and miserable I thought, “You know what? I’m going to be the most supportive partner I can be.”
Every day, I said, “What can I do to support you today?”
He says, “Well, do this household task. Do that household task.”
They were actually his tasks. So in a several week period, I literally did every single thing. He was doing nothing, and I wasn’t getting my own tasks done. So after four weeks of this, I said to him, “I’m starting to feel a little anxious because I’m falling behind on these things that are my responsibility, because I’m doing this other stuff. I’m getting concerned it’s not getting done.”
He had a fit. He started shouting, “See? You never genuinely cared about me. You were just manipulating me so none of this work you did counts!”
Anne: The issue is inside his own mind. If he’s grooming all the time, he’s literally tallying things up. So in his head, he has an actual spreadsheet.
Laurel: Yes.
Anne: He thinks, if I do these ten things of grooming and love bombing, I get to cash out for my goal, my intended aim. This grooming will have this effect. Because non-abusers don’t think that way. The, “it doesn’t count” business is completely nonsensical.
Laurel: It is totally.
Anne: The toilet either gets cleaned or it doesn’t. There’s no part where you clean it, but it doesn’t “count.” Is it clean or not clean?
Laurel: Oh, but if you enjoyed it, it doesn’t count.
Anne: It does count because the toilet’s still clean.
Non-Sensical Abusive Reasoning
Laurel: They are so non-sensical. I think that was the hardest thing for me, because I’m so logical. I would confront him, “This doesn’t make sense, let me tell you all the reasons why.”
It just kept me in the abuse, because they’re never going to say, “Oh, yeah, that’s a good point. The toilet is clean. Good job.”
Laurel: Several of the things you just said resonated with me. First of all is the internal score sheet: he would do all these things “for me” that I didn’t ask for and didn’t even want. Then he would rage at me because he had done the things.
Anne: In his head, he thought his grooming and love bombing would get him something.
Laurel: Right.
Anne: When it didn’t work, it was infuriating because it didn’t count in his own head. It was all for nothing. Doing the dishes just to do the dishes doesn’t count unless you have some other goal you’re trying to get. If he does the dishes and doesn’t get what the aim of the dish doing is, maybe intimacy, then it was like doing dishes was a waste.
Laurel: Yes, 100%. I love the way you articulated that so clearly. When I was in it, it was so confusing. I would revert back to what you were describing, which is trying to logic it out and explain things to him. He would get so resentful whenever I used logic, and get so angry because he couldn’t refute it. Then he would rage, tantrum, and all the other things.
Exploitation For Entertainment
Anne: Had that happened in my case, and this is not better or worse, this is just different ways of dealing with abuse, I wasn’t the type to do service. I was like, “Heck no, I’m not doing that.” So I would just fight him on stuff. Rarely was he able to get me to do the thing he wanted me to do. I just did not, would not do it. I would win a lot of the time because I’m logical. So I could win, and then he wouldn’t get what he wanted, but then the resentment would build up.
A lot of women think, “Had I done that, things would’ve been better for me.” I’m like, no, because then I just ended up in an argument with him all the time. We were constantly fighting. If they have an exploitative character. Everything they do, including love bombing, is calculated to exploit you.
And in my case, I was actually being exploited for entertainment. He loved these arguments and I hated them. They were miserable. So even if I won, I still had to fight for five hours. And it was absolutely miserable.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop teaches women how to extricate themselves from this mess. These are the strategies I used, as I learned that fighting him was not helping me. And it completely delivered me and my kids from abuse. And so many women have had success with the strategies.
I recommend everyone check that out, because it’s too complex to say in two minutes, most women love their husbands and want to make it work.
Physical Limitations & Housework, Getting No Help Just Blame
Anne: The workshop strategies enable women to stop his exploitation. While also doing it without fighting him. It’s amazing. When I discovered these strategies and started using them, everything changed.
Laurel mentioned that she has some physical limitations, and he would use those physical limitations against her rather than trying to help her. What was his reasoning for you to do more housework when you have this condition?
Laurel: Because I have an immune issue, I asked him when he came in from out in the community. If he would please wash his hands so I could be exposed to less germs. Lots of people do that, especially during pandemic times. This was before that, but that’s become a normal practice for a lot of people.
This is back to your reasoning about, “I’m doing the thing and I need to get this benefit I want out of it.” The benefit he thought he was entitled to was that I should do extra housework for him because he washed his hands.
Anne: Wow! This is so hard for me to wash my hands. This makes up for me doing the dishes or something.
Laurel: Yeah, it was super weird. Especially near the end, he told me my intentions and feelings. He would say to me, “You’re blaming me.”
I’d say, “No, I’m not blaming you. I’m blaming myself that we’re late.”
“No, I feel blamed, so you’re blaming me.”
I’d say, “I’m not blaming you.”
When I would tell him what my real thoughts, feelings, intentions, or internal process were, he said, “When I tell you I think or feel something and you tell me I’m wrong, that’s called gaslighting! You’re gaslighting me. You’re abusing me.” So that was pretty crazy making.
Rage & Contempt Continual Abuse, He Had Abandoned Love Bombing
Laurel: We had moved into a new house that spring. The rage attacks were getting so frequent, so intense, and with less and less time between them. I felt he truly hated me by this point. Almost all the time we were at home, he walked around with such rage all the time. His body was so tense. He had this look of contempt and hatred on his face.
It got so bad after an event, when he had a rage attack on me, I said, “Do you wish I was dead so you could have the insurance money and live your best life?” He just looked at me. I stood there, he didn’t answer me, I felt sick to my stomach and I walked away. I went upstairs, went into the bathroom, and started to cry.
About 45 minutes or an hour later, he came upstairs and said, “No, Laurel, of course I don’t want that.”
He made no attempt to comfort me, hold me, hug me, touch me, nothing to convey any kind of love for me as his wife. If I had understood what I was dealing with at the time, that should have been a clue that I needed to get out. It was becoming unsafe. By then, we were sleeping in separate bedrooms. I was sleeping with the bedroom door locked every night.
Anne: That is so scary.
Laurel: It was terrifying. Before he left, he’d walk around the house like a knight proclaiming, “I’m divorcing you! I’m divorcing you!”
In the last couple weeks, right before he moved out, he said, “You should be glad I’m divorcing you so you won’t get abused anymore.”
Divorce & Intrusion Into Home Without Permission
Laurel: I asked my therapist, “Do you think he actually recognized he’s abusive?”
She said, “No, I think he’s making fun of you.” So she still did not think that he actually identified he was abusive.
After he moved out, we had an agreement that he would not come to the marital home without making arrangements in advance with me. I would come home and it seemed like someone had been in the house. During the divorce discovery process, I did get confirmation of something I suspected. He was coming in when I wasn’t home.
I was afraid to change the locks at the time, because of the laws in my state. I thought I could face some legal ramifications, because he was also an owner of the home. It wasn’t until I was getting ready to travel for Christmas that I actually had someone change the locks. I didn’t want the house vacant with him coming in. I just took the risk anyway.
When we were doing discovery for the divorce, one of the things I found on the one credit card he turned over statements for was that he had purchased another key fob for the home alarm system. So I think he used that to disarm the house when I was away, so he could get in. By the way, he withheld most of discovery. He had secret bank accounts and all the things, and wouldn’t turn over discovery on them.
Anne: I’m so sorry. All these things are awful. They’re also typical of so many stories that I hear. They are extreme. They’re really extreme abuse and love bombing.
Extreme Abuse Recognition & Love Bombing
Anne: It’s fascinating to me that abuse and love bombing at this level is serious abuse. Not that other abuse isn’t serious, but this is serious abuse. That reconciliation people would not recognize it as such is scary. I’m so glad you’re willing to share this, so that people can recognize severe abuse.
Laurel: I am grateful I can be here to share this with other women. I hope other women hear their circumstances and what I’ve shared today. That a light bulb will go on for them that this is abuse, and to get help and safety. During the divorce process, there were a number of things he did to also intentionally terrify me.
For example, he tried to have me served, but I was out of town on a work trip. According to the laws of my state, he could have just sent it by certified mail. Instead, he repeatedly sent a process server to embarrass me and shame me in front of my neighbors. There were other things he did during the divorce, like sending intimidating emails and other things. Nothing anybody could point a finger at and say, “This is dangerous or aggressive.”
All the things that were done he knew would be frightening to me. I had, of course, become his scapegoat during the marriage. I was his emotional punching bag whenever anything in his life upset him that he didn’t like, he would take it out on me. It was a repeated pattern of behavior until when the stuff snapped for me. I was still involved in that Reconciliation Industrial Complex group. I spent all this time fasting and praying to try and “get back to him.”
Recognition Of Who He Really Is
Laurel: His mother had passed away, and by that point, we had zero contact other than the divorce for some time. Immediately after clearing the business of her death, he took actions to use covert aggression against me again. That was when I realized there is no amount of fasting or praying I can do to stop this person from being abusive. This good guy I thought I married wasn’t the real him. The abusive person is the real him. This was who he was.
Anne: That is a very hard thing, and it’s shocking. It’s shocking to realize that he was who he was the whole time, and I didn’t know because of lies and love bombing. It takes so long to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse.
Laurel: There were a lot of other overtly abusive things in the marriage: screaming at me, calling me names, and those types of things. He’s telling me how everyone, like his family, his friends, naming certain people says he’s so good with me. Nobody else would ever put up with all my issues.
Patricia Evans book on verbal abuse, The Verbally Abusive Relationship, is good for anyone who thinks they might be experiencing verbal abuse and wants to learn more. It helped me understand what I went through. A lot of that is stuff that’s more easily identifiable.
Anne: Yeah, I recommend that book as well. It’s on our books page. I appreciate you sharing, because it helps women understand that extreme abuse is the most common experience. That’s abuse. There is no other word for it. There’s no way to put a euphemism on it. That is abuse, and if someone says it’s not, then what goal do they have? Do they have your safety in mind?
Legal Abuse & PTSD
Anne: A lot of people don’t understand abuse or love bombing, so they think the worst case scenario is divorce, but the worst case scenario is you being abused. You experienced that for more than eighteen years. Eighteen married and seven before that?
Laurel: Yeah, we were friends for seven years before we dated. Then we dated for two years before we got married, so that was nine years before marriage. Then there was about two years of the divorce process, actually a little closer to three, if you count the last year of legal mess.
Anne: Yeah, and he abused you through the legal system as well.
Laurel: That is correct. Yes.
Anne: Because you don’t share children, thank goodness you’re able to have a clean break. Now that the legal stuff is over, how are you doing?
Laurel: It’s been very difficult. I won’t lie. I was diagnosed with PTSD from the abuse I experienced. And I had panic attacks and nightmares. I never had panic attacks in my life before this, and it started during the divorce process with the stuff he used to terrify me. I’m still recovering from PTSD. We’ve done EMDR, and brain spotting, which I found helpful. There are some other practices I’ve taken home that I can use when I feel activated that have been helpful.
I’ve explored other modalities in managing my own emotional and physical state. Because my nervous system is hypersensitive and hyper reactive. I’m hyper vigilant because of everything I went through.
Healing & Recovery Without Love Bombing
Anne: I’m so glad that those different modalities helped you. I got to a point where talking was not helping, and I needed to do something different. And so I actually turned to meditation. But I couldn’t find a meditation that was exactly what I needed. So I ended up writing 13 meditations that are specific to our situation.
Laurel: I want to say that this was important to my recovery. I never would have snooped in someone’s private things prior to this crazy-making love bombing and abuse experience I went through. But when my ex was preparing to move out, I went to the journals he occasionally kept, which I had never looked at in our entire marriage.
I photographed everything and processed through it. It was helpful and important to understand the level of projection, manipulation and dysfunction happening. So that’s a tool that I used to help myself know what was real. Since then, I have been in a new home. It took me a while to get settled, and I’m feeling much more hopeful about my future. I’m using my voice to speak truth.
For the past two years, during Domestic Violence Awareness Month, I have executed a social media campaign of a topic a day regarding domestic violence. Each of the topics included extensive supplementary materials and supportive materials to get people more resources so they could get educated.
Financial Abuse Uncovered During Divorce
Laurel: I have had some people say they have found that helpful. So using my voice has been helpful to me, my own healing, and to understand what is true and what is real, and not just love bombing. That’s been helpful to me.
Anne: I’ve found that to be the case too. Being able to speak my story, share, be listened to, and taken seriously. And know that other women listening to this are nodding their heads.
When you said, “I’m shaking my hands! Like, ah!” They’re doing that too, as they’re listening because they have also experienced this. So the collective validation of victims who have been through this is helpful. I’m so glad you are safe now and continually becoming safer over time. Now that the legal abuse is over. I assume, is it over?
Laurel: It is over, yes. I will say that one thing we did not talk about was the extensive financial abuse, a lot of which I didn’t find out about until some of the discovery process and the divorce. But that is a component for most people experiencing domestic violence.
Anne: It’s shocking to me how much you learn after. I want to honor all women for where they are and where they want to be. I was just as shocked in my own circumstance, as it sounds like you were of all the things I didn’t know. But once I went through the divorce process and was divorced. All the things I see now and continue to see in my situation, because I share children with him. They are so obvious to me now knowing what I know.
Post-Divorce Realizations About Abuse & Lies
Anne: I don’t know if I would have known had I stayed married. Divorce and sharing children have brought so many more things to light that I wasn’t even aware of at the time.
Laurel: I had to deal with him after he left during some of the divorce process. Some behaviors I had seen in the marriage, I watched him execute over and over during this process. That was very eye opening to me to understand being out of the environment, still seeing the behaviors. And being able to recognize them for the abuse and love bombing they are. Once I was out of this situation, that was also helpful to see.
Anne: He was still trying to maintain control, still trying to control the narrative, even though you were going through the divorce process.
Laurel: Yes.
Anne: Laurel, thank you so much for taking the time to share with us. Also, it sounds like you did a lot of your own processing. Writing some of these examples down, I appreciate you were willing to come and share it with all of us today. So thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
Laurel: Thank you for having me. I’m grateful to share this and I hope it helps others.
How Abusers Gaslight: Telling Phrases to Watch For
Oct 24, 2023
Gaslighting is a calculated maneuver that emotional and psychological abusers use to keep women stuck. How do abusers gaslight? Dr. Jessica Taylor, author of Why Women Are Blamed for Everything and Sexy But Psycho talks with Anne Blythe M.Ed, about specific details with real life stories.
Wondering if you’ve been a victim of gaslighting? Dr. Jessica Taylor and Anne share some of these common phrases and conversations that abusers may use with victims to distort their reality and cause them to wonder if they’re capable of discerning truth:
“I’ve asked our family and friends to pray for you.”
“You’re overly emotional.”
“You’re mentally unwell.”
“Have you been taking your medication?”
“Have you considered going to therapy?”
“No one is going to believe you.”
“No one is going to support you/like you/believe you/listen to you.”
“I know you care about our family, and ever since you started ______ (listening to this podcast, reading this book, talking to this friend, etc), you’ve been disconnected/too “feminist”/hurting our family, etc.”
“The light in your eyes is gone – I think you’ve lost the Spirit.”
Abusers Use THESE PHRASES To Gaslight Advocates
Advocates include YOUR family, friends, clergy, victim advocates (such as DV workers), medical care providers, and others:
“She hasn’t been taking her medication.”
“Please pray for her – she needs all of our help right now.”
“She’s been acting unusual lately.”
“I’ve done all I can.”
“I’m worried she’s losing her mind.”
“I’m scared she’s going to leave the Church.”
“She’s been violent with me and the children.”
“I think she’s cheating on me.”
“I love her so much, I wish she’d come back to us.”
Transcript: How Do Abusers Gaslight Victims & Advocates?
Anne: I have Dr. Jessica Taylor, the author of Why Women Are Blamed for Everything. And the newly released Sexy, but Psycho, she has a PhD in forensic psychology and is the director of Victim Focus. Welcome Dr. Taylor.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Thank you so much for having me.
Anne: In America, most news will say there was a domestic disturbance. Like they were having a fight, then he killed her. Rather than saying he was abusive and killed her. And then at the bottom of that article, they’ll say, call the national domestic abuse hotline. As if calling a number, those of us who have dealt with it and are living in it. We’ve called those numbers, and it was not as helpful as people think.
Yeah. But even the reporting of it, prior to linking to it at the bottom, is misogynistic. And sort of like, the alleged or she was a part of it somehow.
Abusers Mutualize & Neutralize
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Well, I call that mutualizing, mutualizing and neutralizing. Because it’s like, you know how you just gave the example of like, they are having a fight or it is a domestic?
It reframes this whole system of power, control, and abuse from one person to the other. As this mutual, neutral almost like a relationship problem. I don’t know if you ever hear people say, “Oh it’s like six of one and half a dozen of the other.” It’s like they’re as bad as each other type narrative.
And that’s absolutely not true in abuse. The point of abuse like this is that it is systematic. It’s about power and control. And about the perpetrator getting something out of controlling, destroying and breaking down that woman. It’s not mutual, but the language, like the examples you just gave, minimizes it and trivializes it, doesn’t it?
Anne: I feel like now there are many, many women who understand this and can see it for what it is. But there are also so many women who still can’t. And it’s so important that women know these powerful truths about emotional abuse. And therapists, institutions, court systems, and others that cannot see it. Why do you think it took so long for some of us to recognize what was happening?
Dr. Jessica Taylor: There are multiple answers to this.
Systematic Grooming, Gaslighting & Abuse From Birth
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I mean, the first answer for me is that we are groomed from birth. As women and girls, to tolerate, accept, minimize, normalize, and the violence, abuse, and power used against us.
Abusers gaslight with an insidious, careful, global considered process. And it’s very successful, which means that lots of women and girls grow up in abusive households. Dads, granddads, uncles and brothers abuse them. My research has repeatedly shown that brothers and dads are likely to be the first perpetrators against a woman or girl.
And then you go on and get into these relationships. These men and teenage boys, gaslight then dehumanize you, harm you, abuse you, assault you, rape you, whatever it is.
And lots of women listening will recognize that we have been in a situation like this. If you’ve been through this, which I assume, lots of your listeners and you and me have been through male violence. Where you don’t even know you’re in it, like you’re living in it every day, and the abuse can be life changing and yet you still haven’t really clicked in. To what it is you’re living in and how it’s deliberate.
Abusers gaslight in a systematic way. You know, the perpetrator, your partner or your ex wants that to happen. They’re enjoying it. They’re taking something from it. And so it takes a long time. Perpetrators often do a great job convincing you that it’s you with the problem. They will gaslight you, they will reframe you as mentally disordered, that you don’t remember things right.
That you overreact, that you’re over emotional, and that you’re hysterical. And so you often question everything that’s ever happened to you. Like, did it happen like that? Or like, am I overthinking it? Am I overanalyzing what he just said? Or like, was it as bad as I’m making out? Maybe I’ve remembered it wrong. Maybe he’s right. And I think we have created over millennia a culture of convincing women that they’re just mentally inferior and don’t remember things right.
Recognizing Emotional & Psychological Abuse
Dr. Jessica Taylor: They don’t understand things, over emotional and overreact to everything. It means we second guess everything.
Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know that many husbands groom and gaslight. We focus on emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. We don’t involve physical assault. Because it can, but I want to focus on emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. Because I feel it’s easier to see the physical abuse, even if you don’t understand it.
For example, if someone punches a wall you might not think you’re being physically intimidated per se or that’s physical abuse. But it is. So people can live in that. Women can live in that and not recognize it. Instead women are told that marriage is hard work and it’s normal. And the emotional and psychological abuse and coercion is so difficult to see, because it’s all those manipulation tactics and deceit.
And so for so long, because you weren’t getting punched in the face or tied up or something like that. Trying to completely dismantle somebody’s reality is extremely emotionally violent, and it’s extremely psychologically abusive. And that is what is so concerning to me.
It is also concerning to me that you never have physical violence without emotional and psychological abuse. If your husband is going to physically abuse you, you can know they’ve also emotionally and psychologically abused you. It ramps up and it starts from psychological and emotional abuse.
So if women can recognize the psychological and emotional abuse, my hope is they can get to emotional and psychological safety. Which is super important, but that’s also the foundation of safety. Because if you’re psychologically safe and emotionally safe, chances are you’re also physically safe as well.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, definitely.
How Do Abusers Gaslight & Manipulate
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Because even if you’ve been physically assaulted. They’ve already set the scene for that behavior anyway through emotional manipulation and coercion. And then once they’ve committed that assault, they will then slip back into that emotional and psychological manipulation and gaslighting, they continue it. Yeah, absolutely to either cover what they did or convince you it wasn’t that bad.
Or to convince you not to tell anybody, or that you actually led them to do that. That you push their buttons. That they wouldn’t have behaved like that if it wasn’t for what you said, what you did, or all that sort of stuff.
I identify very much with what you’re saying, obviously from a professional perspective as a psychologist, but also from a personal perspective, Because the marriage I was in years ago was generally not physically abusive. There were a few incidents towards the end, and then I left, but it was actually years and years of almost total mental destruction.
And I was lucky that my coping mechanism was studying and reading books and working. I had this little escape. But I think once he figured out that was the escape, that was what he started attacking. So it was this constant like, Oh, you think you’re so clever. Why are you always reading those books?
You think you’re so good. You think you’re going to be something, and nobody likes you. You’re never going anywhere. Nobody’s gonna be your friend. Like if I ever made a new friend, it was like, oh, she probably doesn’t even like you. She should probably feel sorry for you. And it’s this constant trying to break you down piece by piece.
Personal Aftermath Of Mental Destruction
Dr. Jessica Taylor: And for many women who have also lived through that, it stays with you, that stuff, for a long time. Gaslighting causes you question yourself, it affects your self esteem, it affects the way you understand yourself. And it affects your confidence in your own judgment, and even things like your ambition, your dreams and your decisions.
It changes your worldview, it changes your view of self, and of your relationships. And makes you question yourself, and about people who care about you and stuff. Because somebody has, like, constantly got in your head that you’re not worthy, worthless, not good enough, stupid, ugly, or no one will ever want you.
I get what you mean, people struggle to identify abuse. If you’ve been punched in the face, or something very physical has happened, there is something very tangible about that.
Gaslighting is when you are constantly emotionally manipulated. You’re put down, belittled, laughed at, and made to feel like you’re going crazy. It almost sometimes feels like you’ve got no evidence. Like you can’t prove any of it, and nobody’s gonna listen.
Subtle Abuse: When Abusers Gaslight
Anne: For listeners of this podcast, there are some very insidious types of abuse too. I would say the type of emotional abuse you’re describing is also, I mean, it’s hard to see when you’re in it. But that can also be obvious, right? If someone says you’re stupid or ugly or something.
Abusers gaslight with these subtle ways of emotional and psychological abuse. Like, I love you so much, I care about you. And I’m worried about you.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Oh yeah.
Anne: You haven’t been remembering things correctly. Or I’m concerned, because I know our family is our top priority.
And as you read these books, and in my case, many victims who listen to my podcast. Their husband will say to them, “I know you care about our family. Since you started listening to this podcast, it’s been damaging to our family.” And use subtle ways of maintaining the status quo and not having her see what’s really going on.
Here’s a really good example of gaslighting that I heard recently in my particular faith. You can say certain things, and in general the culture is like, oh, I know what’s going on. And one man called all his wife’s friends, all her family, and everyone, and said, Could you please pray for her?
She’s struggling right now with her faith. Which wasn’t true at all. But all he had to do was say that. To all the friends and family, and say, she just needs extra prayers because she’s really struggling with her faith. And, she’s feeling apart from God right now. And so she could use your help.
Weaponizing Healthy Communication With Lies
Anne: And that was so undermining, because then when she went to friends and family for help. They were like, oh, if you’re struggling with your faith, maybe that’s why you want to leave. Maybe that’s why you’re saying this stuff, because he’s such a nice guy and wants everyone to pray for you. So these really subtle ways. I am concerned with abusers who are learning. healthy ways of talking through therapy, through books.
Abusers gaslight by weaponizing it, but they sound like they’re saying the right things sometimes. And it is intended to continue to oppress women, that’s what we see here a lot. And that’s the main thing I want to warn women about.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, I think this is fascinating, because I think you’re talking about, as you say, like a level of skill here and intelligence here. From the perpetrator’s side, where they’re either learning to mirror, as you say, healthy ways of communicating. Where they’re actually weaponizing them successfully. Or they are generally quite intelligent, people anyway. So they’ve learned over a period of time that they don’t need to use physical violence to have total control.
And to completely destroy somebody and keep them exactly where they are. Because for some perpetrators like that, they know not to cross that line. They know that if they left a mark on you or did something physical, that would all give you a way out. And like you would identify what was happening, but if they can keep you in this place. That is constantly undermining you. But doing it in a way where you can’t even completely be sure that’s what they’re doing.
Abusers Use Gaslighting To Manipulate Professionals & Systems
Dr. Jessica Taylor: That is a really difficult place to live as a woman. You know that you can’t figure out exactly what’s happening to you. Because you’re not a hundred percent sure that is happening at all. And in terms of how this relates to my work, the closest I can get to this and my experience is that I see a lot of men. That do the whole telling the family, telling the doctor, telling the counselor, I’m really worried about my wife. I think she’s struggling with her mental health.
She needs some support, and we need to be there for her, because she’s struggling at the moment. I think she should be referred into the mental health service, so that she can get the right medication. The right help and treatment. And it’s obviously all part of the manipulation. Because once you frame her as having a mental health issue, everything can be covered up.
Everything she says can be denied. Everything she says can be belittled or brushed away. I worked years ago on a helpline, and I remember a woman ringing. She’d been having therapy with us on and off for a couple of months, and it was going really well. She was getting ready to leave this guy, and then he turned up at the center, and the service with a secret address. I don’t know how he found us, but he did, she wasn’t actually in there at the time.
I think she might have been at work . And he turned up, and he played this sort of oh, I’m so glad I found this service. And I’m concerned about my wife, I just feel like I need to talk to one of you.
Abusive Strategies: Lies & Deceptions
Dr. Jessica Taylor: And I just need to give you this information, She’s not been taking her medication. She’s on these antidepressants and antipsychotics, and I’m worried she’s not been taking her medication. I’ve been telling her every day she needs to take it, and she’s been getting delusional. And she’s thinking things aren’t real.
I’m listening to him thinking, yeah, right. As if, I’m going to believe that. She’s lucky that he came across somebody like me, because I could see right through this guy. He deliberately set her up. So it sounded like all her disclosures to us were because she wasn’t taking this medication.
I knew what he was gaslighting us doing, and he did it in such a way, like he cried. I’m so worried about my wife, and I just want the best for her. I knew exactly what he was doing. But it worries me that so many of these perpetrators who approach it in this way are good at manipulating professionals. Aren’t they?
Anne: They are. The most common situation where a husband is gaslighting his wife here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is that they manipulate their victim through the Pornography Addiction Recovery Industrial Complex. Which is what I call it. They’re found out for their use, for example, or their affairs or soliciting prostitutes, you know, addiction therapy.
And then they start telling people, yes, I’m a addict and getting treatment. But now I’m just concerned about my wife. She also needs to get help, because she’s experienced this traumatic event in finding out that I’m an addict and needs help. And everybody’s like, oh yeah, she needs to work on her side of the street.
Manipulation Through Addiction Recovery Programs
Anne: She is gaslit because she is told she needs to go to S-Anon or COSA because she’s codependent. And then she has to go to “treatment” too for his addiction. In the meantime, she’s emotionally and psychologically abused. Trying to “care for” her husband, who is “sick” apparently. I’m using quotes for sick, because he’s got this sad addiction. And she is not seen as a victim of abuse.
Like she’s not been able to give consent for her relationship because she didn’t even know anything about this. She’s been lied to, deceived emotionally and psychologically abused the whole time. It is bad. And she’s getting that from the addiction therapist. She’s getting it from maybe marriage and family therapists. And she might also get it from clergy.
It just gets super hard to see what’s going on. When you have what seems like all these professionals and people who seem to care about you. Trying to hold your family together, as the glue, because you’re kind of healthy in this situation, but you’re almost as sick as he is.
And he’s not bad, he’s just sick. Okay, it reminds me of that section in The Maid, the Netflix show. When the dad is trying to say, he’s not the enemy, the alcohol is the enemy. Do you remember that part?
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I haven’t seen that, but that makes a lot of sense. It feels familiar. It’s the type of thing that you hear a lot, the example you just gave. I think that’s another way that we force women to take responsibility for men’s actions and abuse. It’s like a way of roping her back in and being like, you’re also a problem, and you need to work on this stuff too.
Women’s Need Safety Not Accusations
Dr. Jessica Taylor: And it’s like, at what point are women allowed to go, do you know what? No, absolutely not. I’m not working on anything. This isn’t my problem. These weren’t my actions or choices. I’m not getting involved. He needs to deal with his own problems, and needs to take full accountability, which means not spreading that accountability to me.
Anne: Yes. This man is currently psychologically and emotionally unsafe. I need to distance myself from this. Because his continued gaslighting, lying about me, deceit and manipulation, even if it sounds nice. Is emotionally and psychologically violent to me.
It is harming me. Some pornography addiction recovery therapists, for example, will require a woman not consider divorce for a year. Until he’s been in treatment, rather than saying, okay, you’re currently unsafe. Many abuse professionals think that divorce, oh, we just got to get her out of there. And I’m like, well, that also doesn’t solve the problem.
I was severely emotional and psychologically abused post divorce for eight years, because I share kids with my abuser. And all the women listening, that’s why they’re afraid of getting divorced too.
Because they think, maybe I can manage it better, and I’ll actually be safer if I remain married. But then try to set up boundaries in marriage. Maybe I can make sure my kids won’t have to go every other weekend. My kids will be safer. So women have to make these strategic decisions about what will give them the most emotional and psychological safety.
Coercive Control In The UK vs The US
Anne: It’s really tricky when professionals, the court system doesn’t understand. The UK is way better than America in understanding coercive control. So that’s good news for you guys.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, well, I’ve got quite a lot of colleagues in the US, and we have many conversations that go along that route. Until I explain what it’s actually like here. And they’re like, oh, I see. Because a lot of it’s lip service, don’t get me wrong. The academic understanding is there. We have a definition of coercive control. It’s included in law. It’s accepted as a thing, so yes, I accept that we’ve made progress there.
When you actually attempt to demonstrate or prove coercive control, or you need to help a woman clearly being coerced. And if you are in a psychological, emotional, abusive relationship with somebody, you will get the same sort of dismissal. Not believing her, pushing back, reframing her as the problem. Then making her take responsibility and telling her that they need to get therapy together. The whole system gaslights her into thinking it’s her fault.
I don’t know, I think we’ve done similar things recently in the UK around misogyny. Where some police forces say, oh, we should charge these men with misogynistic crime.
Anne: Oh, like, a hate crime?
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yes, exactly. So it’s misogynistic hate crime. So that would include coercive control and domestic abuse. Essentially, they can say that the misogyny aggravates it. Then it makes the sentence heavier. It makes the system almost work better. But the problem is that all sounds brilliant, but it just doesn’t work in real life.
Combating Biases Among Professionals
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Most of these professionals, whether they’re working in family court or in police, whether they’re social workers or whoever. They couldn’t even define misogyny. Most can’t spell it. They don’t know what it looks like. They’re misogynistic themselves.
Also, and I always make a point of saying this, statistically, these professionals working in these environments are just as likely to be abused. Especially the women are going home to an abuser at the same rate as the public.
The research suggests that professionals in these roles are as likely to be abused as their clients. And that means the men in those roles are just as likely to be perpetrators as men in the general population. This means they have their own biases, experiences and issues. They have their own conclusions and self blame, which they put on women trying to get help.
Anne: Abusers gaslight and manipulate the system. Right now I have a friend, her soon to be ex has a protective order. And her victim advocate says, “You need to report these additional crimes he’s committed.” She’s trying to get divorced from him, and her family court attorney says, “No, do not report it. Because then you’ll look bad, and it will affect your divorce negatively.” She’s getting different advice from two law professionals.
The two judges working for the same county will view her domestic abuse completely differently. Though they work for the same county, and both are supposed to be on the side of justice.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, this happens in the UK as well. The way you’ve just described that, if somebody outside our field of work listened to that, they’d be like, that’s ridiculous. That’s because it is, but that is what we’re seeing here too.
Abusers Gaslight & Manipulate In Family Court
Dr. Jessica Taylor: So it’s this sort of like, don’t bring up the abuse, don’t report the abuse when you’re going through the divorce. Or the custody type hearings or child contact hearings, because it’ll make you look bad.
It makes you look like you’re accusing him, and it’s going to make everything harder. But, you have a right to report that stuff to keep you safe and if you wanted to. And it’s appalling that you have to almost play a game to try and keep you and the kids as safe as possible, which could actually mean you can’t even report what you have a right to report.
It’s, it’s just wild. And like you say, these are judges sitting in the same areas. In the same courts, we are supposed to work towards the same aim, which is justice, safety and protection. It’s impossible to do this. While so many women are terrified of going through, as you say, the divorce process, a custody process, a family assessment process. Because they know that their ex or partner will successfully manipulate every professional in that case.
Anne: These types of abusers do not respect civil divorce decrees. They just do whatever they want, because if they don’t do something in the civil parenting plan, for example, it’s very difficult to enforce it. Whereas a protective order or other criminal things are easier to enforce.
So my opinion is currently to report. Go with what the criminal people say, rather than the divorce people. Because the criminal prosecution and criminal action could actually have a consequence that could keep you safer than your divorce decree. That’s my current way of thinking about it.
Abusers Gaslight With Parental Alienation Accusations
Dr. Jessica Taylor: That’s interesting. I would be inclined to agree on paper with what you’ve just said. I also accept how tentative you’re about it, because I get that totally. In the UK, for example, lots of women are going through this where they keep trying to tell the truth in their divorce hearings. And their child contact hearings, and things like that. Then what happens is that the whole thing gets flipped over on them, and they’re the abuser and fabricating it.
Abusers gaslight in the court system by making accusations of parental alienation. They accuse victims of fabricating abuse and things like that. And then suddenly those women are like, oh my God, it’s me on trial now. And I did not expect this to happen.
I’ve worked with women around the world. I worked with a woman a couple of years ago in Australia who went through exactly this experience. And then suddenly she realized this case had been turned upside down. Suddenly it was her on trial, not him.
Then they decided to remove her access to her daughter, and said she was an unsafe mom. And that she was lying about this coercive control, lying about the abuse. And that by continually talking about it, bringing it up, and trying to report it, she was actually going to harm the little girl, and all this sort of rubbish.
Anne: She was taken away from her.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: She was removed completely, and she had no access to her whatsoever. They refused to give her even contact and access. I’ll tell you about this story just because it has a good ending, thankfully. The little girl was removed just before Christmas, and I honestly thought that that woman would end her life.
A Case of Manipulation & Control
Dr. Jessica Taylor: She texted me several times and was like, “I can’t do this. I’m not living without her. I don’t know how this went so wrong. I just wanted to divorce him. And I would have been happy with shared contact. I don’t know how this happened, and it just changed her life, and he did all this out of control and spite.
How do abusers gasllight? He had no interest in being a full time parent to that little girl. Not a chance. He was a businessman, out and about all the time. He was always traveling, had absolutely no interest in that child. So he did it purely to harm his ex wife, and within a few months that child had been palmed off. To child care, nannies, nurseries, schools and after school clubs.
The kid never saw her dad, and it was only after a few months of school reporting. She’s not getting picked up, she’s not being looked after. She’s not looking well and is ill, and then he moved her out of the area. Nobody knew where this child had gone.
And I was so gobsmacked and blown away that something happened. I don’t know how it happened. The woman got a good lawyer, and they actually got that child back and fully removed from the man. So the little girl is now like eight, and they’re doing really well. They’re super happy, but the horror that woman has been put through.
Anne: And the child.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, absolutely, the little girl. And I know it took ages for the little girl to recover from all that trauma.
Abuse Recovery & Trying To Moving Forward While Still A Victim
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I remember speaking to the woman a few times, and she was like, she’s not the same anymore. I was like, you have to give her time. You’ll have to be there and give her time, because she’s been through life changing. And she, I remember her saying to me, do you think she’ll grow up and remember this?
And I said, yes, likely. It’s likely. At that age, she will have memories of all this. And she said, I hoped she wouldn’t have any memories, and she’s young enough not to have any memories. I know, I think, she will at that age.
Anne: I’m reminded of another story of a woman who had a 6 month old and was not married to the man, and actually crossed from Canada into the US to escape him. Then he fought her, fought her, and fought her, saying she kidnapped the kid and all this stuff. And was in court the whole time.
And she was terrified. So she stayed in America, and tried to fight it in court. She ended up having brain cancer and dying. And the second that she passed away, he stopped all the court stuff and didn’t want to see the daughter.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Oh my God, that’s horrific.
Anne: Yeah, so she basically, I think it was until her daughter was 11, maybe, was in court just with this awful, awful court case. The daughter would have to go and be with him in Canada for him. I mean, it was so bad. And the second that she passed away, he was like, oh, nevermind. I don’t want to see my daughter.
Abusers Gaslight With Guardianship & Control
Anne: Her husband, the woman’s husband, who was a good man and was trying to help her figure it out. He is now the full time dad. She calls him Dad, and he’s the one who takes care of her. But they’ve never wanted to file for adoption or anything, because they’re just too afraid that, I think he is her legal guardian, but they’re too afraid that he’ll say no.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Abusers gaslight continually? He probably will. He’ll probably say no, just purely out of control.
Anne: It’s interesting though, because he works pretty well with the husband now that she died. He’s like, oh yeah, no problem. Yeah, he signed the stuff for the legal guardianship.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Is that misogyny? Or is it that he feels like he won in the end, and she died.
Anne: Because he killed her.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, if that’s what he wanted, as soon as she died, he would be like, now I get full custody of my kid that I’ve been fighting for for eleven years.
Anne: He would be on the plane.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah.
Anne: That day, like, if that were me, I’d be on the plane. Like, oh, this thing I’ve been praying for has happened. Oh, we’re finally reunited. I’m so grateful to have you.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Oh, absolutely, it is a big power game. Oh that’s an awful case. Women are just going through so much. And the system is failing them left, right, and center.
The Core Of Abusers using gaslighting Is Gaining Power
Dr. Jessica Taylor: It speaks to what is at the core of emotional, psychological abuse, and coercion. It’s all about power. How do abusers gaslight? It’s all about breaking you down and being able to control you in the way they want. It makes sense that if that is the way they think, behave, and what they get out of that.
Then they will continue that, whichever way they can. And like, as you say, for those of us with children with perpetrators, which includes me. It’s very difficult. Abusers gaslight to gain power. You realize you are attached to these perpetrators for, in some cases, the rest of your life. Because, you’ve got kids with them.
And like in a good scenario, just until your kids are like 18, 20 years old or whatever. And that you can completely cut off, but in reality, you never can completely escape those perpetrators. You’re attached to them for a very long time, and they’re perpetrators. They’re going to find ways to harm you over the years, even as those decades pass.
And you can understand the amount of trauma that causes women who are attached to these perpetrators with children. It’s years and years of trying to keep yourself psychologically safe, trying to keep yourself emotionally healthy. Trying to move on, trying to process everything that happened when you were together. And the horrible, post divorce mess that many of us have gone through. And then years down the line, there are still things that crop up.
Abusers Use Gaslighting to maintain control
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Abusers gaslight, manipulate and control. There are still things that they might stick their oar in or be difficult about. Just examples, like getting a passport for your child so you can go on holiday. Or like, I don’t know, the fact that your kid needs somewhere to stay for a bit. Or wants to go to a different college or university, or, you know.
And there are so many things. Or they might have a health problem and, like, you’re both, you know, required. I don’t know. It could be anything, but they will find a way to manipulate that situation so that they can play their power game all over again.
Anne: James Clear, who wrote Atomic Habits, had this quote in his weekly email blast. And I thought it related to this. He said, “Ambition is when you expect yourself to close the gap between what you have and what you want.” And, “Entitlement is when you expect others to close the gap between what you have and what you want.”
And I think that’s the heart of misogyny. They want a clean house or children, and expect women to close that gap. Instead of saying if I want my toilet cleaned or my children cared for, I need to do that. Right? I need to show up to the school and pick up my child. I need to give my child a good education and medical care. They think, I want to call the shots.
Abusers Have A Heart Of Misogyny
Anne: I want to say, these are the things I want, but then I want someone else to do all the work. I want to get what I want, and not have to actually do the thing. So had that man been able to have his wife pick up and take their daughter and do whatever he said. He would have been happy to have his daughter stay with his ex.
Because she wasn’t doing what he wanted. And they weren’t acting the way he wanted them to. Then it was like, I’d rather hire someone else to do this, because he was not going to do it. If women listening are thinking, yeah, my husband wants me to be the stopgap in our “relationship,” right?
I’m the one that needs to apologize. I’m the one that needs to be compliant. And I’m the one that needs to plan the stuff and ensure everything goes smoothly. But he just gets to call the shots and doesn’t have to do the work. That is a sign that the situation you’re in is emotionally and psychologically abusive, because he expects other people to close that gap.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: It’s such an interesting quote, isn’t it? I really like it. And I think that entitlement also comes from the misogynistic belief of men as individuals. And also patriarchy as a culture that women are there to serve men. They’re there to be intimate with men. They’re there to look after men. So they’re there to care for every need of that man. And that when you step out of line, and it’s a very specific stereotype.
The Role Of Women in Patriarchy
Dr. Jessica Taylor: You have a very specific role as a woman in a patriarchy. You know, you’re supposed to be desirable, attractive and available. But not too desirable, attractive, or available. Because then you’ve gone too far the other way into an empowerment. And there’s a term in psychology in some research around this. Around sexualization of women called sexy, but not a slot.
So it’s like, you’re supposed to be sexually available. You’re also supposed to be chaste. And you’re supposed to be everything that a man wants you to be. If he wants you to be almost like a virgin, then that’s what you are. If he wants you to be easy, that’s what you are. And if he wants you to be intimate with him every day, that’s what you are.
If he doesn’t, and he wants you to only behave in a certain way, that’s what you are. That’s also a level of entitlement. That you are supposed to fulfill the role of the inferior woman at all times. And you’re supposed to do what you’re supposed to do. That includes being domesticated, so it means cleaning for him, cooking for him, and caring for his kids. Also be the family referee, secretary, and accountant. They’re getting it from wider society,and getting it from the media.
They’re getting it from storybooks and fairy tales. Misogyny runs deep. And then we see it manifest in all these different behaviors and experiences that women and girls live through. And that sense of entitlement that you just talk about, I think, is a great way to explain it.
Historical Context Of Women’s Rights
Anne:The book, The Woman They Could Not Silence by Kate Moore highlights this. It is an incredible story of Elizabeth Packard, who endured immense trials in the 1800s. Due to her husband putting her in an insane asylum. It is amazing. But what struck me about her story. The story of women being basically property for most of history until the late 1800s, when they abolished coverture laws.
Is that up until that point, this is like the late 1800s, women were property.
Women did not have rights. A married woman couldn’t have her own wages, property, children and everything belonged to her husband. And so at least in America, the Emancipation Proclamation to free enslaved people was in 1863. And women in America were not emancipated from their husbands until the late 1800s, like 1890s. So 30 years after the Emancipation Proclamation, women are granted freedom from their husbands.
That historical fact is very important. Just like, at least in America, everyone celebrates that emancipation date of enslaved people. Why are we also not celebrating 1891, when the state of Indiana passed a law ending coverture laws? Then I remember the biblical story of Jacob, and even in that biblical story. He works for seven years to purchase Leah. And then he works another seven years to purchase Rachel.
The history of marriage is basically you own the woman. Marriage started to shift in the late 1890s from property to partnership. I think that’s an important part of the story.
Legal Changes In The UK To Help Women
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Do you know, I was so interested listening to that because In the UK, that law didn’t change until 1975, that you just explained.
Anne: Yeah, wait, the coverture laws?
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Well, it wasn’t technically called that. Up until 1975 in the UK, women were not allowed to get a mortgage or have their own bank accounts. There was discrimination that stopped them from getting things like their own credit card until 1975.
Anne: Same thing in the US with credit cards, yeah.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, and then in 1995 or 1996, the law officially changed. So a woman didn’t have to perform what was known as wifely duties for the man in marriage. So if you were married to a man in the UK, there is no way you could be abused or raped by your husband. Because he owned you. So like you had to be intimate with him when he wanted, there was no way to report your husband for anything. Because you were his property.
The law changed in 1995. And it was only after that year in the mid 90s here that you could actually report. Or even describe your husband as raping you or abusing you. Because prior to that, it didn’t exist. I was a kid then. So like, that’s…
Anne: Yeah, me too.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: You know what I mean?
Anne: Wow, yeah.
The Fight For Women’s Liberation
Anne: I’m all for social justice and racial justice. And I’m so happy that we celebrate the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863. But why are we not talking about this? Why, why is there not a, like, Women’s Liberation Day in the UK in 1993? When women finally were liberated from slavery from their husbands? Like, that’s crazy that there’s not, like, a national holiday for that.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I ask similar questions in that misogyny is the last form of oppressive discrimination literally ignored. There are, I think, much bigger and more accepted movements around things like gay pride and around Black Lives Matter. People gaslight women to think that feminism, women’s rights, is seen as a joke.
It’s seen as a bunch of women, they’re hysterical and emotional, and they’re moaning about everything and making out that their rights are being rolled back. It’s so interesting that we have framed women as so inferior and unreliable for so long that there is no equivalent movement.
There is no equivalent, you know, like you say. There isn’t a day that marks how important it is that women were liberated from that form of abuse. And slavery in their relationships. There is no day to mark that. Isn’t it brilliant that in the 90s in the UK, we changed the law? And it meant men could not demand intimacy whenever they wanted.
Anne: That’s literally a slave.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: That sort of change in the law in the nineties in the UK is little known. Even professionals in this field, I’ll often talk to people in the UK and they were like, really? Is that, was it the nineties? I didn’t even know that was a thing. I didn’t know that was a law.
The Lack Of Recognition Of Women’s Rights
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I didn’t know there was any change, and it’s just not spoken about. It always makes me think about that. As we said, because this is only the 90s, it’s not a long time ago, it’s less than 30 years ago. That means there are women living in those marriages at that time.
They were under that law at that time, which meant they had to give intimacy and essentially there was no consent. Was there? Because there’s no need for consent if marriage contracts require you to be intimate with a man.
Anne: The perpetrators are getting smarter. It’s because for 5, 000 years they’ve had these entitlements to intimacy and household labor. That women were made or created to serve them. And now that that’s not politically correct, the actual genetics of it. When I say that, I mean the historical traditions the way they think have not actually caught up with it.
So instead of respecting women and actually seeing them as equals. They’re like, we have to maintain this power structure somehow. Because it works for us, but we cannot be so overt about it. We have to be subtle, we have to use the right words. We have to act like we respect women, while still maintaining the ability to exploit them.
That’s why it’s very difficult when you have a professional husband who is educated and smart and wants to look good to his neighbors. He wants to show up at church and look great. He wants to show up at the community meeting and be the good guy. They will gaslight and talk and act a certain way so that they maintain their power.
Abusers Gaslight To Maintain Power structures
Anne: Because they’re not going to maintain their power if they say, “Oh, women are here to serve me.” Everyone would look at them like, what? Like that’s not right. They’re maintaining it in different ways than in the past.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: They’re learning to disguise it with gaslighting. They’re learning to make it sound more socially desirable and acceptable than those views and values. They’ve not gone anywhere, they’re learning how to communicate them. As you say, maintain their power and control without outing themselves.
Anne: Exactly. At the same time, I have met so many healthy men who are not this way. I know from their actions, the way they treat me, and the way I feel around them. Like for my internal warning system, that I have actually more hope for men than ever, because I see the men who are healthy, who respect women.
So that’s not to say this episode is all about how all men in the world are like this. I think another thing that hurts women is that women think all men are like this. So if they want to marry, they have to settle for an abuser, because there’s no other option.
There are healthy men out there. And the more we understand what this looks like and feels like. The more we can recognize and separate ourselves from men who are dangerous to us in emotional and psychological ways from men who are healthy. And men who can be like a good partner or friend or someone who is not going to harm us.
There Is Hope For Healthy Relationships
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Hard one, because not all men are used to derail these conversations for women. The whole like, you know, not all men are like that, and they’re like, yeah, I know I didn’t say all men, did I? I mean, like you have to go back to people and go, but I didn’t, I never said that, so. Absolutely. We’re defending a point I did not make.
Anne: Absolutely. The only reason I bring that up is because I hear many women say, well, I want to be married. And since there’s never going to be a man out there that will respect me. I’m going to stay married to this man. So that’s why I say that, but not to say it’s not a huge problem.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: There’s obviously amazing men out there. There are, like I mean, some of the people in my life that are my biggest supporters. Who are there for me through things and help me so much, have been men. I’ve still got guys in my life that have elevated me, listened to me throughout my career, everything I’ve done.
They’ve been the one at the back going, keep going. You’re amazing. You’ve got this. Like, I believe in everything you’re doing. They’ve listened, they’ve opened doors, and they’ve never ever made me feel uncomfortable. And I know 100 percent that is a safe guy. I know that I can feel it the same as you. These guys are out there.
They are, but I think that for some women, the fear of being alone and living a single life terrifies them so much. That they’re always thinking, if I leave this guy, how am I going to find someone else?
The Importance Of Self-Sufficiency
Dr. Jessica Taylor: And actually, the first thing that needs to happen is you need to be safe and well on your own.
Anne: Alone, yes.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah.
Anne: I think that thinking that you have to have a man is a misogynistic idea.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Absolutely, it is. It means you’re always scared. of living life alone. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I know loads of women who have been through long, abusive, hard marriages. Then they get to be 50 and 60 and going, “Do you know what? What am I doing? I’m wasting years here. I’m miserable. I don’t need to do this. I could be out there on my own”, and it terrifies them.
But at some point something happens, and they say, Do you know what? Being on my own has got to be better than this. It’s got to be healthier than this. You know, it’s a big leap. It’s a big, scary jump. I had to make that, but I was much younger at 28. I remember that, and remember lying in bed and thinking, even if you are on your own for years and years and years. Or even for the rest of your life, it has to be better than living in this.
You cannot stay in this. This is awful. This is destroying you. I meet women all the time who are going through that same thought process. But you’re right, then it comes down to, but what if I don’t find anyone? What if all men are dangerous? And what if I find another perp, and then another perp, and then another perp, and the thing is, that can happen.
The Reality Of Abusive Relationships
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I think the message I would want to get across is that it has nothing to do with you. That is not your fault, that is statistically just likely. Because there are so many abusive men, you are likely to meet another one. Even if you meet him for like one date, and he turns out to be an absolutely horrible, horrible person. You could meet him literally for two hours.
Or, it’s a guy that you get into a serious relationship, and you’ve been together for a few months or years. And then you realize, Oh no, I am back in abuse. How has this happened? This guy has total control over me. How has this happened again? It doesn’t matter. It’s so common that you are likely surrounded by perpetrators. I think the fears of women who are thinking, but what if I never find a safe man to have a life with? I think they’re valid fears, aren’t they?
Anne: I agree. I am not dating and I don’t want to date. I mean, if somebody came along, that would be fine. But my thinking, what if I can’t find a healthy man, is not even in my brain. There’s no worry in my mind or heart that I, “Won’t be able to find a healthy man”. If I don’t find one, great!
I’m fine. I’m happy. I love being a mom. My kids are amazing. I love my career. I have really good friends, even just seeing the word romance gives me like, a little bit, it’s like a little bit creepy for me.
Living A Fulfilling Life Without A Partner
Anne: I’m just not that interested in it, but I would be interested in a partner if that person came my way. I do think women put themselves in danger when they think it’s a need. When they think it’s something that if they don’t get it, they’re somehow missing out. Because you can have a beautiful, wonderful life with amazing relationships with people that are intimate. But like, my relationship with my kids is beautiful, and my sister and my friends.
And I appreciate that. So I just don’t want any woman out there thinking I need a man, or I’m not going to find one. You don’t need to find one. You can stand on your own two feet, and meet your own needs. And you can also meet other people, because you need people. You do need friends. You do need relationships. Finding a healthy partner is so overwhelming. That just seems impossible, that’s why I’m like, I’m not going to worry about that.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I’m not surprised at all.
Dr. Jessica Taylor’s Books
Anne: This conversation has been amazing. Learning to recognize gaslighting from abusers is such an important way to protect ourselves. Dr. Taylor has three books. They’re all available on Amazon. Check them out. Listeners may be the most interested in The Indicative Trauma Impact Manual, which can help you figure out yourself as a trauma survivor. You are responding to the abuse that you may experience, and that might help you reframe or understand your responses to abuse, rather than thinking that it somehow has something to do with you. Or that you’ve caused it.
So that is The Indicative Trauma Impact Manual. Her other two books, which are also on Amazon, are Why Women Are Blamed for Everything and Sexy but Psycho. Dr. Taylor, thank you so much.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, thank you so much for having me and listening. And yeah, it’s been awesome. So thank you. And I’ll talk to you again.
This is How You Know It’s Time To Leave – Vicki’s Story
Oct 17, 2023
Every victim faces a unique moment when she has had enough, when she realizes, “It’s time to leave.”
Vicki shares her powerful story of liberating herself from an abusive marriage when she reached her own moment of realization. Vicki’s story offers a beacon of hope for survivors facing similar challenges.
Whether you’ve been married for days, weeks, months, or years, we want you to be safe, as you figure out if it’s time to leave your abusive marriage. As you’ll hear in Vicki’s story, her abusive ex-husband reached new and terrifying heights of violence and intimidation. When he realized she was on the precipice of change.
Victims Can Prepare To Safely Leave An Abusive Relationship By:
Creating a safety plan with a BTR.ORG coach or local domestic violence victim advocate.
Reaching out to safe people and letting them know the plan, and ways to offer support.
Pack a hidden emergency bag that is easily accessible in case the need arises for a quick exit.
BTR.ORG Is Here For You
For those currently on the path to freedom and figuring out when it’s time to leave, Vicki’s story is a testament to resilience. It reinforces the message that leaving an abusive marriage is courageous, requiring careful planning, support systems, and commitment to one’s safety. Vicki’s journey serves as an inspiration for victims taking the first steps toward reclaiming their lives. You are not alone, and there is strength in breaking free. Consider attending a BTR.ORG Group Session today.
Transcript: This Is How You Know It’s Time To Leave – Vicki’s Story
Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We are going to call her Vicki. She is going to be sharing her personal experience, what she has been through and knowing when it’s time to leave. So welcome Vicki.
Vicki: Hi. It’s great to be here.
Anne: I don’t know if great to be here is the exact right way to put it, right?
Vicki: If it’s going to help anybody, then yes.
Anne: Yes, and going through what you’ve been through is terrible. But a lot of victims who come on the podcast to share their experience find it like a step on their journey. To peace, in that they can share their story with a community of women who get it and benefit from it. So we’re grateful for you taking the time to share today. So let’s start at the beginning of your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?
Vicki: No, I mean, of course, at first he was Prince Charming, you know, so there wasn’t anything to notice at first. Then shortly after we married, I noticed things that I was like, I’ve never seen that before. Where did that come from? But this went on for a while, for months and years without me being able to say, wait a minute, that’s not okay. That’s totally abusive. So I definitely did not recognize it.
Anne: How did you define these? I’ll just put in quotes, “strange behaviors” or things that you were like, I don’t feel good about that. How did you define that behavior at the time? What reasons did you give?
Excusing Abusive Behavior By Blaming Others
Vicki: Well, I just thought he had a lot of bad things happening to him through no fault of his own. So he was discouraged, and it made him touchy. And so in my mind, I was like, well, after all this behavior is understandable. He’s demoralized because of these tough breaks he keeps experiencing. And, I just excused it. And later, I found out that all the things I called tough breaks were literally just consequences of his choices and behaviors.
Anne: But you didn’t know it at the time?
Vicki: Oh no, no, he kept everything so covert and hidden from me.
Anne: Okay.
Vicki: Yeah
Anne: Let me guess, one of them is getting fired from a job?
Vicki: Oh yes, that was definitely one of them, on more than one occasion. He went through ten jobs. And every single time it was because there was a “departmental restructuring.” Or his boss was a horrible jerk, and it was time to leave, or something like that. It was definitely not due to behaviors he was doing on the job, on company time with the company computer. It was definitely not that.
Anne: I mentioned in another interview recently. The situation usually begins for them, in their head, on with what other people do in response. It doesn’t start with them. So they do something wrong. You know, they use exploitative manterial on their work computer, and then their boss starts treating them “badly,” maybe because they’re like, you’re a bad person.
He Was Fired From His Job Repeatedly & Abusing Me
Anne: When I say “badly,” I’m putting that in quotes, like you’re not a good employee. It’s time to leave. And that’s where they start the story. The story starts with my boss started looking at me weird, treating me bad. And not giving me projects, and then it was time to leave and fired me.
Vicki: Right. And I have no idea why.
Anne: Yeah, it usually starts after what they’ve done and the beginning of how someone else is responding to their behavior. But what about his behavior toward you? Was it still like that he’s stressed out? Can you talk about how you felt about his behavior toward you?
Vicki: He was just mean and super impatient, and would just rage constantly. And I recognized it was harsh, overreacting, or having a tantrum. But I didn’t say that to him. Because if I did, he would punch me, and that happened. And yet I didn’t recognize that carefully avoiding punches. By keeping my words at a minimum and not defying him, I didn’t recognize that was abuse.
So if you said to me, does he physically abuse you? I’d be like, no, no, because I knew how to keep him from doing that. So when I tried to call him out on inappropriate behavior, he would yell, shut up. And sometimes I didn’t shut up, no, I’m not going to shut up. That’s not okay. And of course, since I didn’t shut up, then I would get the warning that what was going to come next. And so I would shut up.
Vicki: No, I just thought he had a bad temper. I did not ever identify that as abuse.
Family & Community Perceptions: Moving Because It Was Time To Leave
Anne: Physical abuse never happens without emotional and psychological abuse, right? So you’re being abused.
Vicki: That was much more severe than anything physical, right.
Anne: So you’re emotionally and psychologically abused for sure. Which you don’t realize. You’re also physically abused. Which you don’t realize. That is why its so important to know these truths about emotional abuse. Especially because you are so abused, you’re doing exactly what he wants. So he’s resorting to the physical abuse less because he’s threatened you with it, right?
Vicki: Right.
Anne: So the threat is keeping you in line enough, I guess. But nobody else in your family knew about it, or they didn’t recognize it as physical abuse either?
Vicki: My extended family, no. My children, yes, they all knew.
Anne: Okay.
Vicki: Yeah, like I said, all my neighbors, church members, and family members looked at us as a cute, ideal family. You know, they’re so great. They’re such a nice couple. That’s all they saw. And we would move so often that I never had a support group in the neighborhood. And all they would see was the surface stuff. But as soon as anybody started getting onto him, we would move, it was time to leave. He would uproot us immediately.
Anne: My ex did that too. When we were together, we moved six times in five years. I think he knew people were onto him, maybe I didn’t know that, but I think he did. I think that a certain type of abuser wants to move frequently. Because they want to make sure they can keep that mask on, right? So he was one of them.
Discovering His online Addiction
Anne: In terms of church, was he like, “upstanding?”
Vicki: Yes
Anne: Did the church view him as an upstanding member? Like, did he get leadership roles?
Vicki: He was in a leadership calling. He wore his suit and tie like a badge. That was his disguise. He had most of the people completely fooled. Looking back now, I can see sometimes how people reacted to him, and I’m pretty sure there were some people who didn’t fall for it, but I did. Until the end, the fog started lifting.
Anne: Were you aware of exploitative material use?
Vicki: Not until after I left, it escalated to a point where my adult children did an intervention. And after that, my daughter took me to a therapist she had seen. He said, you know, your husband is a pornography addict, right? And I was like, no, that’s no way.
He’s so opposed to that. He thinks that’s just a terrible thing. And he’s like, no, no, he is really. So we had two computers, and my son, who is a programmer, ran programs and found deleted files. And there was evidence on both computers. And I was like, are you kidding me? I realized how many lies by doing all the back research. I realized how many lies I had been told the whole time.
Anne: How long was your marriage?
Vicki: It was 30 years almost.
Anne: And when did you get married? How old were you?
Vicki: I was 19. Yes. He groomed from day one. He used a tricky tactic to make me think he was Prince Charming.
Managing Abuse & Fantasies, Not Knowing It Was Time To Leave
Anne: So as he’s using this content without you knowing. I mean, you know that you have to walk on eggshells to avoid abuse. Not knowing that you’re being abused the entire time. Can you tell us more about the types of things you did to “manage” his abuse?
Vicki: It’s really sad, and I did not even realize this. It’s so funny, because I literally would fantasize about him being dead. And how easy it would be to raise eight kids all by myself with him being dead. And that didn’t even clue me in to something amiss.
I don’t know. I would be like, why do I think that? That’s so dumb of me. I justified it by thinking, but he’s so tortured. And it’s okay for me to not want him to continue to go through this, you know, existence, with such torture for him. And yet he wasn’t being tortured at all. I was. I didn’t know if it was time to leave.
https://youtube.com/shorts/8ZzdLVRNeg4
Anne: You were, he said he was tortured from what? Like he was abused as a kid, or his dad didn’t love him, or what?
Vicki: Yeah, because he lost jobs. Every person in his sphere didn’t treat hin like he was stellar all the time.
Anne: He wasn’t getting all the stuff for free he thought he was entitled to, right?
Vicki: Yeah, what I did that was so sad. I had my kids trained, Hey guys, dad’s going to be home, you know, everybody just has to not fight. We can’t have this, you know? And like, I had them all like trained little walking on eggshell kids. Because they knew they would get hurt if there was any problem.
Realizing The Extent Of The Abuse
Vicki: I spent my entire marriage to make him have his life exactly how he wanted. I mean, I’d have the dinner on the table. Whatever he said he wanted to do, we would facilitate that ASAP. Nobody else was allowed to have a want or need. If anyone expressed a want or need, they got, oh, you’re so selfish. You’re so needy, and you’re such a drama queen. You’re just on and on.
Anne: Do you realize how capable you are and how amazing you are that you were actually able to do that? I hear women say this, like, so I had dinner on the table, and so I had this and this done. And I’m like, oh wow, you guys are amazing.
Like I was the world’s most incapable victim, apparently because I could not pull it off. You know, I am like, so in awe of how talented, dedicated, and just hardworking women are. And then saddened to see, and you too, right? All the lost time, your strengths, your talents, and your effort were exploited for an abuser.
And so that’s what the painful part is. It’s not that like, you’re ashamed that you worked hard. Or that you’re ashamed that there is a little bit of this shame, I think, that women carry. Once they realize that these good things about them were exploited for the use of an abuser, rather than for your own life, for yourself. And that lost time is like difficult to grieve. That’s why it’s so important to learn to set boundaries with your husband.
Vicki: Yeah. And that’s the sad thing. I’ve been safe for years, several years, and I’m still going through so much grief. Little things will trigger. And just be like, oh, I just hate that I was so gullible, and didn’t know when to leave.
Feeling The Need For Permission To Leave
Vicki: Or I hate that now my kids are struggling as adults because of their trauma from me. You know, instead of being like, no, you’re not going to treat my kids like that. You’re out of here. I didn’t do that. It was like, okay, now you guys have to manage your behavior and not be a kid. It was on them.
Anne: Yeah. It is so painful. I’m so sorry. I want to like reframe it and be like, you were so strong and so brave. You were doing everything you knew how to do. You didn’t know anything else. If someone, an angel. would have come down from the heavens. And said Vicki, “This is abuse, stop doing this.” You would have done it.
Vicki: Yeah, I would have.
Anne: Yeah, you didn’t know.
Vicki: When someone finally did say that to me, I left. Like, I never returned to the house once after that. I was done. It was time to leave. So, I just had to get permission from somebody I believed had authority, who happened to be a therapist. This was part of the intervention. This is what I realized. I was like, you’re mentally ill and scary. I can’t live with you anymore.
You’ll need to go into some kind of residential treatment program. I thought there was such a thing as that. I don’t know, because you can’t come home with me in your current state of mind. And so he drags us down to this counseling office, and just without an appointment starts yelling at all the staff and saying, “She won’t let me go home until I see a therapist.”
Taking Action for Safety & Deciding If It’s Time To Leave
Vicki: And there was thankfully a lady there willing to talk to him. And she got him in another room filling out intake paperwork. And then she told me to run for my life, it is time to leave. She said, he’s not okay, go. And that’s the last time I was with him. So I just had to have one person tell me that it was okay to go.
Anne: Wow, there’s so much there, that type of action. Not necessarily that specific thing you did, but taking action to get to safety. So we can get enough space to see our husband’s true character. It’s so important. This is why I developed the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. So if you’re listening to this and thinking, how do I know if my husband is that scary?
Vicki, when did you realize all your hard work and all the things he had manipulated you to do weren’t working out? Like, so an abuser would be like, well, if you would only do this, this and this, everything would be good. And because they’re liars, they always move the goalposts.
So if he’s like, you’ve got to have dinner ready by five. Then you do all the things, and then he’s still acting terrible. And then he says, well, and you have to lose weight and work out. And, you know, I don’t know all the things he says. There’s never a time where he’s like, “Oh, good. Yeah, you did do that. Okay, now I am happy. Now we’re great.” That never happens with an abuser.
Vicki: No.
Gradual Realization About A Bad Relationship
Anne: In essence, we’re believing these promises, like if you do this and do this, things will be good. And they never are. When did it come to the point where you realize, wait a minute, there’s nothing I can do that will manage him or make him happy? Was that the same point you thought he was mentally ill? Or was this before?
Vicki: Probably, I mean, it was several months. He had lost another job. When he had gotten that job, he said to me, “This is the last job I’m ever going to get.” And I was like, and so what’s your plan after that? And he was like, I don’t have one.
I’m just not doing this again. If I lose this job, I’m not getting one again. So then when he lost that job, I remembered what he had said back then. And he was worthless. I started realizing there was zero motivation for me to remain in that relationship, because it was all for him and nothing for me.
So that was kind of me coming out of the fog. I was like, why am I doing this? No sane woman would put up with this. And then I’m like, well, you’re sane. So why are you putting up with it? It took me several months. Of just gradually realizing that there was nothing for me in that relationship. So when it came to the point where he was so scary and threatening me and everything that I was totally able to just be like, okay, bye.
Anne: So he was losing jobs all the time.
I Worked & He Didn’t Contribute
Anne: Were you working?
Vicki: I stayed at home until my youngest went into first grade. And then I was working 35 hours a week at their school. I was the only one working. And he was staying home, “looking for jobs” month after month. Then he’d get a job, then he’d lose it.
Anne: So you were consistently working, and he was going back and forth?
Vicki: Yeah. And you know, when I was a stay at home mom, I did things at home to earn money as well.
Anne: At this point where he doesn’t even show any interest in getting a job again, you’re like, wait a minute. He’s not contributing to the household income, not doing things around the house. He’s not even helpful and just mean. So I’m done. It’s very sad to me that you lived with this for so long, and you just didn’t know, like no one told you when it was time to leave..
Vicki: No.
Anne: I am shockingly blunt with people. And so I often tell women that they’re being abused. And many times it’s like in real life, they haven’t come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
They weren’t searching. And so they do not like me because they’re like, who is this lady? My husband’s great. I don’t know what her problem is. The reason I do that is because I feel like many women are in your situation. And it was mine too. The second someone told me that, I was like, oh. And had someone told me sooner, I would have done something about it sooner.
Therapy & 12-Step Programs: Time To Leave, Walking Out On Harmful Advice
Anne: I just didn’t know. I was shocked that I had spent seven years going to therapists in the addiction recovery industrial complex, including 12 step groups. Yeah, and no one said anything. I mean, they mentioned every once in a while, but it just did not click that this is abuse.
Anne: Did you talk to clergy? Did you ever go to therapy before?
Vicki: No, therapy was completely a taboo subject.
Anne: So you couldn’t even go by yourself?
Vicki: No, oh no, no, no that was completely not allowed. And any suggestion of me wanting him to get help or take medicine or anything like that would invoke rage.
So no, I had zero therapy before. I knew nothing, never read a self help book. I knew nothing about what I was going through until after. Now I have read pretty much everything that could be found. I have a comment about the 12 step recovery. So like right after, of course, the clergy was like, yeah, you should go to this.
You know, if that’s what you were dealing with, you should go to this.
Anne: Addiction, you mean?
Vicki: Addiction recovery, right. For the wives, you know, because the divorce wasn’t final or anything. And I guess they thought maybe it would heal the relationship or something if I did. But I went to two sessions. And on the second one, I literally walked out when the facilitator said the words, sisters, we can love them into changing.
Anne: No.
Vicki: And I was like 30 years of blood, sweat and tears.
Anne: No.
Vicki: If that wasn’t enough love to make him change, then no, don’t ever say that. And I was done. It was time to leave.
Dangerous Misconceptions About Abuse
Anne: That poor woman doesn’t realize that that is exactly what the abuser wants her to think.
Vicki: Yep.
Anne: She is exactly where he wants her. Because if she thinks love, service, and stuff will help him change. He can exploit her all he wants.
Vicki: Yep.
Anne: It is so dangerous. It is one of the most dangerous things to say to a victim of abuse. I’m glad you walked out. Good job. So the therapist says to you, just someone you randomly meet that your husband drives to, and starts yelling at. This is a crazy story, Vicky. You didn’t know it might be time to leave.
Sorry, I’m like, wow, this is God intervening in a serious way. She’s like, run for your life. And you never look back. What about the intervention? When did the intervention with your kids take place?
Vicki: The night before the incident at the therapist, he took my phone away. He locked me in my room and put me on a chair, and was basically like, if you try to stand up, you will be hurt. I was being held hostage in my room, so I couldn’t call for help. Then he told me the ways our lives were going to be ended, etc. And, so …
Anne: Whoa, whoa, whoa, ended like he’s gonna kill you?
Vicki: Yeah, it was pretty much that. I mean, he didn’t say it in that exact way, but It was like, if you died at the same time as me, how would that make you feel?
Anne: Huuuuh!
Vicki: Things like that. So, I was just crying and crying. And my daughter, who could not reach me, knew he was being crazy and scary.
Police Intervention & Immediate Aftermath
Vicki: So she called the police, and they came and did a welfare check. And of course he goes to the door. How is there a problem officer? And they go, well, we just got a call that there might be a problem here.
Where’s your wife? They made him go get me out. And of course, it looked like I had been crying for 12 hours straight. So the woman took me in one room, and the man took him in the other room. And basically after that little small interview, separate interview. They said, okay, you can either go in the police car in handcuffs to the police station. Or you can go in an ambulance to the psych ward.
You pick, and of course he picked the ambulance to the psych ward, then he was there for just a few hours and they let him go. So I don’t know what happened in the psych ward. Nobody talked to me.
Anne: You know, there’s no diagnosis for abuser in the DSM.
Vicki: As it turns out.
Anne: Yeah, So what are they going to do? Diagnose him with being an abuser? And tell you it is time to leave?
Vicki: Yeah.
Anne: So they let a dangerous person.
Vicki: Yeah.
Anne: But the system is so messed up.
Vicki: Yes, it is.
Children Step In To Help When It’s Time To Leave
Vicki: But when that happened, my adult kids were like, okay, we’re getting her out. And when they found out that he was dragging me to the therapist, one daughter was at my house packing bags.
Anne: Okay.
Vicki: And another daughter was getting the three minor children to safety. Another, you know, son was doing this. They all…
Anne: Jumped into action.
Vicki: Yes.
Anne: Good for your kids. They knew when it was time to leave.
Vicki: And I didn’t know, but the son that was with me, because there was my son, myself, and my ex at the therapist. He took me away, and we left car keys, for the other car in the parking lot, at the desk. And then we just left. And I did not know at the time that they were abducting me, but I never went back to my house, ever.
Anne: That’s good.
Vicki: After that, my brothers moved me out of that house.
Anne: So Vicki is intelligent, normal, you’re not perfect, right? But you’re an intelligent, capable woman with two brain cells to rub together. Congratulations. And This crazy event of kids getting involved and him driving to the therapist and screaming around is the first time that you register that you’re being abused.
This says nothing about you and says everything about the state of women being educated about abuse,
Vicki: Right.
Anne: Because had you been educated about abuse, you would have known. So that’s why I do this podcast is to get the word out. Like, this is what abuse is. This is what it looks like, because the second you realized it, you could take action. It’s so important for women to know what’s going on, to know the truth.
Vicki: Yes.
Getting Protective Orders & Legal Advice
Anne: Were you able to get a protective order? Cause he was being whack-a-doodle.
Vicki: Yes, we all got protective orders.
Anne: Okay. That’s great. When it comes to divorce and custody, I always recommend you go with the criminal route. Because criminally, with a protective order, with other criminal processes that the justice system can take. They are more reliable for keeping victims safe and helping when it’s time to leave. Even though it’s not perfect, and even though it doesn’t always work.
Vicki: Right.
Anne: It’s just more reliable than divorce. I’m not saying don’t get divorced. If your divorce attorney says, no, no, no, don’t get a protective order, because then it will be harder to divorce him. A lot of divorce attorneys say that. I’m like, no, no, no, get the protective order. Get it, yeah. Because then if he breaks it, you can call the cops. They will actually take action. And if he breaks it, they can do something about it. They don’t always do something about it.
Check and see what the laws are in your area. If the police are reliable, you know, that kind of thing. Even if in a divorce court, they say, “Hey, you can’t go to her house.” There’s no way for the civil side, the divorce side, to enforce it. And since it’s not enforceable because it’s just a civil decree, that means nothing. The criminal stuff will always keep you safer.
Vicki: I agree.
Anne: So because you guys had protective orders, did you get full custody of the kids or did he still have some custody?
Challenges With Clergy & Community When It’s Time To Leave
Vicki: I did, and part of that was because he was unemployed and because I had the protective order, etc. I got legal services, and he didn’t have it, so he didn’t fight me, and that’s how I got the custody. So I feel really grateful for that, because he later tried to come back and get it, but never did.
Anne: That’s good. Wow, during this time, you know, you’re being abused and you’re telling people you had some bad experiences. It sounds like with clergy where they were like, wait, wait, let’s get him help rather than your safety is our top priority. Can you talk about that?
Vicki: Thankfully, the first clergy I talked to didn’t say that. He was like, “Just promise you’re never going back to him.” And all he knew was the one last little incident. So that was super helpful. After that, there were several clergy who treated me like I was a pariah, because I had done the unthinkable, which is to abandon my marriage.
And I didn’t get help from those, but I had already decided it was time to leave the marriage by the time this was happening. So they were just chastising me after the fact.
Anne: That is awful. I’m so sorry. I had one of my bishops, clergy, tell me that I was the abusive one for going to the doctor to get medical care for him physically spraining my hand.
Vicki: Wow.
Anne: Like, I was the abusive one for saying he was abusive, apparently. I was like, okay, wow. That’s fun.
Vicki: Mind blowing,.
Anne: Yeah, it’s insane. How long ago was this?
Vicki: It’s been over a decade.
Anne: You’ve been relatively safe? Did he just, leave you alone after?
Vicki: Oh, no, no.
Post-Divorce Abuse Continues
Anne: Okay, so let’s talk about post divorce abuse.
Vicki: Yes, it’s interesting how much an abuser can still abuse when the entire family has protective orders, because we still had a house to sell and a divorce to do. And I thought parent time, you know, and all this stuff, I couldn’t just have no contact whatsoever. And so I just put in the protective order that we could have email contact.
About the business things only. Well, he violated that. First, before I told him that I was divorcing him, it was all you know flowers and roses. And you know, when can I come back, and when are we getting back together? And all that stuff. But then as soon as I told him that I was done. Then it turned to hostility and tons of preachy gross stuff.
Anne: Spiritual abuse, kind of stuff.
Vicki: Yes, oh, so much. Every scripture, everything telling me what a terrible person I was. It was so awful. And I put up with it for months, even after pretty much everything was all taken care of and I didn’t need to anymore. Finally, other people talked to me and they were like, you knew it was time to leave. Why do you even still talk to him?
And so I finally did, just cut off all contact. But it did not stop him. Because once he lost that outlet, he figured out so many other ones. Including my parents, who eventually had to get a stalking injunction against him. He stalked the kids at school.
Legal System Failures: Knowing It Was Time To Leave
Vicki: He was arrested several times for violating the protective order, but it didn’t stop him. He used court as much as possible to traumatize us. So I was constantly in fear. I mean, it wasn’t fair, it was going to happen. Fear of being served new orders, you know, a new process that I had to appear in court.
Anne: It’s sad that the court does not realize they are an extension of abuse. Yeah, they should be like, this man is abusing her through filing things with the courts.
Vicki: Yeah.
Anne: Like, in other cases, they can just throw it out and be like, we’re not doing this. But they don’t.
Vicki: They don’t do it, no. So until my youngest turned 18, I definitely continued to be manipulated, bullied and traumatized. Things that he would find ways to infiltrate.
Anne: It’s awful, with the death of my friend’s son. Her ex murdered her son Om. It’s interesting, because we know that domestic violence shelters can’t do much. Besides stalking injunctions and protective orders. It seems like the goal of the domestic violence shelter is to get you to admit you need to get divorced, realize it’s time to leave, and file for divorce. And then they’re like, oh great she’s on her way, right? They don’t realize the goal needs to be safety.
Vicki: Right.
Anne: And if she is not safe, and the protective order doesn’t do it, and a stalking injunction doesn’t do it. Does this man need to be put in jail?
Vicki: Right.
Anne: Does he need to be imprisoned?
Vicki: Well, he did need to, because of many other things that haven’t been discussed.
Struggles With Obtaining Legal Accountability
Vicki: He has committed crimes, and he has not served a day.
Anne: Has he ever been charged?
Vicki: No.
Anne: It’s frustrating.
Vicki: Yeah.
Anne: You know what’s happening, and other people know what’s happening. And he’s still out on the streets, harming people.
Vicki: Yeah. I was actually told by the assistant attorney general of the state of Utah. There is no doubt whatsoever that he is guilty, but you don’t have the right kind of evidence, and he’s going to get away with it.
Anne: That’s awful. I’m so sorry. Where are you in the journey to safety right now?
Vicki: Physically safe, yes. I did, of course, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, that was super helpful. I don’t date at all. So I haven’t been able to do that. And glad I figured out it was time to leave.
Anne: It’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with you. You are healing. I don’t date, and there’s nothing wrong with me. So there’s nothing wrong with you. If you could talk to your younger self, maybe you are at like 16, what would you tell her?
Vicki: I would definitely say if something feels off, assume it is. And do not let what someone says dismiss something that feels off. Because every time I would express something being off, there would always be this perfect little explanation. That was, I feel like, rehearsed just in case. And so I would dismiss it.
I would just teach a 16 year old self, just go with what you’re feeling. Because if it feels off, it is. And then the other thing I would teach them is that we teach people how to treat us by what we tolerate.
It Is Not Compassionate To Allow Lies & Abuse
Vicki: The most important thing I learned was that it is not compassion to provide a convenient environment. For someone to continue sinning and hurting others without any consequence. That’s not compassion.
Anne: It is not your fault. It’s not your fault for “tolerating” it. Because there are a lot of people who are, I’m going to say kind, and someone makes a mistake. And then the person doesn’t continue to abuse them. He made a choice over and over again. And the only thing you lacked was one thing. It was the knowledge that what he was doing was abuse. And it was the skills to know what to do when you’re being abused and when to leave. A
So two things. Sorry, two things, but I don’t think your compassion was the problem. Because once you know it’s abuse, you know, like, oh, this isn’t going to help.
Vicki: Right, well, and the other thing is the lies. I didn’t know that he lied heavily every day.
Anne: Right.
Vicki: Had I known that the reality I lived in was a manufactured false reality. Then I could have made better choices and better decisions. But since I didn’t lie, I couldn’t wrap my head around somebody else who “cared” about me lying to me. So that wasn’t even in my comprehension.
Anne: It’s so difficult when there’s nothing you could do because you don’t know. It’s not like you knew something and didn’t do it.
Vicki: Yeah.
Anne: You did everything you could. Thank goodness when you saw it with your own eyeballs, and you knew, that you did take action. You are brave and strong.
Discovering Betrayal Trauma Resources To Help When It Is Time To Leave
Anne: How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery?
Vicki: There was another incident of clergy betrayal. And I was frustrated. So I started searching on the internet for resources for betrayal trauma. I didn’t even know that was a term. But I was like, this is the trauma I’m experiencing. It’s the constant betraying over and over by this person and that person shouldn’t be betraying me. And so anyway, that was what I was doing, internet searches on betrayal trauma. And that’s when I found it.
I found some other good books and other resources too, but this was the one that jumped out. And it was like, oh my gosh, where was this 10 years ago? Where was this 20 years ago? You know, there was nothing to help women. And so that’s why I’m like, now I just want to get this word out. So I don’t want even one girl to go through what I did.
Anne: That’s why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I was concerned that any woman would go down the addiction recovery path, rather than the abuse path. She needs to know it’s abuse, and to treat it like abuse from day one. Abusers use pornography, it’s abusive. Even if a woman thinks he is abusive in other ways, but not this content. The likelihood of him actually not using this content is almost zero. You might not know, but he does.
Vicki: Yeah. I recently met a lady who said, you know, he was physically and emotionally abusive. And I’m like, yeah, he was also an addict. And I figured out it was time to leave.
Anne: He was using pornography.
The Importance Of Knowing About Abuse
Vicki: If you can do the research, you would find that’s true. Yeah, I just told her he was, don’t worry about it. She goes, well, yeah, there was the one time I took his phone and he freaked out at me, you know? Yeah, exactly.
Anne: When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, did you start listening to the podcast? Or what was your experience with BTR?
Vicki: Oh, I just started devouring the podcasts. And I would just cry and cry because I was like, oh my gosh, I’m not the only one. That’s validating and sad simultaneously. So devastating and healing, because there were so many and. It just, all the information, I was like, Oh, I just wish I had known this before.
Just over and over, and so grateful it’s there. I just hope that so many other people are finding this while they’re still in it, so they can get education about what’s happening. And figure out if it is time to leave.
Anne: I find, even post divorce, for women who are divorced and never knew they were abused. They didn’t even know exploitative content use was happening, and they’re still struggling when they find us. I do think it facilitates healing faster. Because they realize it was abuse, and they’re like, oh yes. Because it’s again a sad commentary on the state of abuse education that a woman can be abused, get divorced from an abuser, continue to be abused post divorce and still not know she’s abused.
You have a bright future. I sense this. Would you say you have other worries, like financial or otherwise? Or is your main worry relationships?
Vicki: Yes, relationships.
Optimism & Taking Steps, Knowing When It Is Time To Leave
Anne: The reason why I hope for you is this, you seem solution oriented. Your whole marriage you didn’t know it was abuse, and you were trying to solve problems. And so now that you recognize like, wait a minute, I want better relationships. I want a good friend, just the desire, the faith, and the forward movement. Take one step, and then the next step will be revealed. And then we take the next step. And realized when it’s time to leave. You have a bright future.
Vicki: It’s comforting to have that faith. I don’t think this is as good as it gets.
Anne: Right.
Vicki: I think it’s getting better. That does give me hope and optimism to continue.
I’ve never gotten mad at God, been like, why did you give me such a creepy husband? You know, or anything like that. It’s just been like, wow, I must’ve been kind of arrogant.
Anne: No.
Vicki: When we sat down to plan my life, I must’ve been like, yeah, bring it on. I got this.
Anne: No, no, no, all you have to do is look around you. There are other arrogant women with perfectly loving husbands. So no, that was not the reason. The reason why you were abused has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with the abuser.
Vicki: Abusers, I feel like are more common. Because at work they get away with it. And more and more people are like, yeah, I could control all kinds of things. And all I have to do is be abusive.
A Bright Future Because Of Principles
Anne: They think, all I have to do is be willing to lie so that I can maintain power. So that I can maintain, like the power of information she doesn’t have. And willing to threaten people. They have to be willing to do like awful things for power, for money. You know, whatever they want to do, it’s scary.
But thank goodness there are people in the world like you. You’re not willing to lie. You are a person of principles. And you realized when it was time to leave. I hope for your future, because I just sense that you have a bright future ahead of you in this life.
I am so grateful that you took the time to share your story with us, Vicki. Thank you so much for talking with me today.
Armchair Psychology Examples: When You Get Labeled
Oct 10, 2023
Armchair Pathology: The pathologizing (diagnosing, whether by a formal diagnosis or simply a suggestion) of an individual without thorough, knowledge-based, individualized care by a provider or advocate. If you’re a victim of betrayal, here are some armchair psychology examples you need to be aware of.
The symptoms of trauma often mimic mental illnesses, disorders, and pseudo-psychological conditions (like “codependency.” Meaning that when providers do not factor in trauma and abuse to a client’s profile, any diagnosis or suggestion can be completely inaccurate.
Have YOU Experienced The Dangers Of Armchair Psychology?
Some victims have experienced the dangers of armchair psychology without even realizing it – because this practice has become so normalized. You can ask yourself these questions:
Has a provider or advocate diagnosed me with a mental illness, disorder, or something else, without ever having seen or spoken with me?
Have I been prescribed medication without having been given a diagnosis?
Was I given a serious diagnosis after only one visit, or after a telehealth appointment?
Did the provider give me a diagnosis after speaking with my husband?
Transcript: Armchair Psychology Examples: What YOU Need To Know
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode, I’m going to call her Paige. Paige is a certified midwife. And she wanted to come on today to talk about armchair psychology examples. And how armchair psychology harms victims. Welcome, Paige
Paige: Hi, thanks for having me.
Anne: So Paige let’s start with the definition of armchair psychology and why that harms victims.
Paige: When people are labeled with a disorder or a diagnosis without actually having had interactions or contact with a provider or advocate. We see it a lot in the betrayal trauma community, “You’re just not healed enough.” Or, “You’re just triggered because you’re not healed.”
https://youtu.be/QleyqobSRCQ
Armchair Psychology Examples: Harmful Labels and Misconceptions
Paige: This is especially when women are countering armchair psychology. They diagnose the woman as codependent, trauma-bonded, or any of these victim-blaming labels. And they’re like, “No, that’s not the case. He actively abuses me. What you say is harmful and perpetuates abuse and abuse mindset.” The armchair psychologist dismisses them as not healed. Because they don’t understand, they’re not healed, they’re triggered.
Anne: So many people say if you’re angry, it’s because you’re not healed. It’s not that you’re actively being abused, it’s that the abuse happened long ago and you’re still making a big deal out of it and you shouldn’t be. Codependency falls into this cateory as well, you are not codependent.
Paige: Exactly, it’s amusing to me, because many betrayal community women I interact with have gotten to that place where they are like, “Yeah, this is harmful language. This is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed.” They are some of the most healed individuals I’ve met, because they’re really putting in that inner work. They’re not doing a lot of the bypassing.
Anne: I think it’s interesting that the more healed she gets, the more likely she is to know what she wants. And to be more confident to set boundaries.
Paige: Oh, absolutely.
Anne: If she says, “I’m upset. This is frustrating, and I don’t want to talk to you about it. Will you please leave my presence?”
Dismissal of Victims’ Experiences: Armchair Psychology
Anne: People might be like, “Whoa, what’s wrong with her? She must be traumatized. She can’t even handle a conversation!” Instead of realizing, she just doesn’t want to deal with this anymore. She’s more healed than before. She can see what’s going on and separate herself from it more quickly.
With armchair psychology people might think she’s not healed when she is very healed. Also when she’s actively abused, so she can’t be healed, and they’re saying, “You’re not healed enough.” That’s probably true, except they’re not enabling her to be healed because there’s still ongoing abuse.
Paige: When you’re still experiencing ongoing abuse, you’ll have parts of you being re-traumatized. That doesn’t necessarily mean that an advocate or provider telling you that you’re not healed isn’t dismissive of reality.
Anne: Or it’s useful. If anyone tells you you’re not healed, it should be you. You should be the one who gets to decide. I remember someone telling me, “I’m sorry you’re not happy.” It’s like the classic misogynistic, “You need to smile more!” And I thought, “I am happy.” That doesn’t have anything to do with this other issue. I can be happy and acknowledge that there’s harm going on simultaneously.
bad psychology victimizes abuse survivors
There Are Systemic Issues in Psychology
Paige: That’s why our language is important, and why pathologizing is so harmful. When we’re talking about experiencing something, instead of using the word ‘but’, use the word ‘and’. Like I’m happy and still traumatized. A lot of it roots back to our language and how powerful our language is; especially when working with and experiencing this level of trauma and abuse.
Recognizing historically, the models we have in psychology are steeped in misogyny and the abuse of women. So much psychology is built on a foundation of pathologizing women as unstable and hysterical. We need to move away from that. The language we use is important. Somebody may say, “I identify with being trauma-bonded. That felt empowering to me to realize I was trauma-bonded.”
As they move through the process, away from those models and unlearning a lot of what is taught, they find that is really blaming victims in its core. Betrayal Trauma Recovery naming the abuse as a choice is very empowering, because we don’t have to revert to pathologizing.
Anne: I agree. Armchair psychology is steeped in misogyny, oppression of women, and women are property. So she’s like an extension of her husband, rather than an individual. I love the book, The Woman They Could Not Silence by Kate Moore. They put her in an insane asylum, because they couldn’t figure out why she didn’t love her husband like she should. She had so much hatred of him because he was abusing her and because he put her in an insane asylum.
They were like, “She has to stay here, because she should love him and be grateful for him.” It’s just a vicious cycle.
Believing Victims & Setting Boundaries For Safety
Anne: How hard is it to believe a victim? When she says, “Well, actually, I’m doing well. My boundaries help me feel safer.” And then someone says to them, “No, you’re not. You’re not doing well.” And armchair psychology comes into play.
Paige: I think it’s that ego default. I know more than you. I’ve taken more classes. I’ve received certificates. I have more letters after my name. When I went into midwifery, I did the direct entry traditional apprenticeship preceptor model. When you add so many letters to the end of your name, you sometimes sacrifice pieces of yourself for those letters. Your ego is sensitive to those challenges.
“I’ve done all this research and I’ve done all this reading, and you are obviously this unhealed victim, so you don’t know as much as I know.” That’s a big part I’ve witnessed. People have a hard time hearing others’ truths. I can acknowledge that people will have different experiences of my spouse, but to minimize that and the betrayal I’ve experienced, because , “He’s a nice guy”…
Anne: As she puts that in quotes, right?
Paige: Yes. Air quotes for that. …is the ego at play. I don’t want to believe I’ve been tricked. I don’t want to believe I’ve been bamboozled. We don’t want to believe we’ve paid thousands of dollars towards a flawed education system that is inherently based on the abuse and exploitation of women.
Anne: One other issue is if they have not been through it themselves, thinking, ” This wouldn’t happen to me so I’m somehow smarter. So I have the answers.”
Paige: Luck, pure luck.
Ego & Professionalism In Armchair Psychology
Anne: It had nothing to do with them. They don’t know it has nothing to do with the victims, either. I think it’s some sort of self protection mechanism, like, “I know more. I can see this and show her how to get out of it. That would never happen to me.” Not realizing, no, this could happen to you as well. It could actually happen to you right now, and you don’t even know it.
Paige: When you put gender into play, there are professionals who may have witnessed abuse and trauma in their own childhoods. But being male has a different societal experience than their sister, mother, or grandmother. Their witnessing of it is not the same as somebody actively experiencing it.
Anne: By default, all children of women who are abused are also abused. The type of abuse they’re experiencing and the way they’re experiencing it is vastly different than what the wife is experiencing. The more women are aware of this type of abuse and the systemic oppressive nature of the exploitation of women. The more upset we’re getting about it. For good reason. The more abusers think women are overreacting.
Thank goodness the healthy men are like, “Yeah, this makes sense.” Even if they can’t understand it on a visceral level, they’re allies in it, and that is helpful. The more women speak out about it, the more abusive men are trying to continue that tradition of oppression of women.
Rather than listening and learning, they’re like, “No, that’s not what’s happening. I’m not abusive. You are because you won’t give me intimacy, you won’t do the dishes, or because you’re asking me questions.”
Armchair Psychology & Angry Feminists
Paige: Then they want to gaslight the situation by being like, “Now you’re just an angry feminist.” Whatever thing they’ve deemed derogatory or less than, so it can just completely excuse their behavior because you’ve fallen into this less than category.
Anne: When someone says that to me, I’m like, “Of course I’m an angry feminist, absolutely! You’re not? Why would you not be?” That’s confusing, because of course I’m an angry feminist. All people who realize the systemic oppression of women should be angry. And they should be feminists. To me, it’s not an insult. I’m like, “Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Thank you.”
The reason they say that is to manipulate you to act differently, hoping you’ll be like, “Oh, I am. I’m sorry. I won’t be so upset. I’ll do something different.” So when we agree and say, “Oh, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I’m so proud to be that. Yeah, that’s great.”
Paige: I get my personal experience from 20 years ago. I saw a provider and received a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Psychology examples like that. Any provider I’ve interacted with since then is like, “That’s a weird thing to diagnose you with. You definitely don’t fit the category for bipolar disorder.”
I dated somebody I had been friends with since middle school. We dated after high school. This person emotionally abused me. And I was misdiagnosed with this pathology. I stopped all medication. I have not taken any psychiatric medication since.
Wrongly Pathologizing Women’s Trauma
Paige: We have a mass medicalization of women because we don’t have the proper avenues in place to address trauma and abuse.
The lack of naming abuse that’s occurring happens so often to women. You have a woman who is assaulted and then she’s diagnosed with borderline. When your body responds organically and physiologically, how it’s designed when it comes to trauma and abuse. The biggest issue with armchair psychology we see is oftentimes that women’s pathology is used to medicate. And further abuse them.
Men’s pathology is used to enable and excuse abusive behaviors.
Anne: There’s also this misogynistic thing going on that it’s easier for women if they have some kind of black-and-white situation. He is 100 percent unable to change, so now I can get to safety. Or, he 100 percent is not willing to change, so now I can get to safety.
Safety & Boundaries In Relationships
Anne: Rather than realizing you need to get to safety, whether he can change or not, If he’s not safe right now. You don’t need to worry about whether he can change. Or worry about whether a program can change him. You don’t need to worry about any of that, which is really hard. All you need to think about is he a healthy, safe person right now, today? Then today I need to get to safety.
It’s like saying, “This person has Ebola and I know they can be cured, so I’m going to continue sleeping in the same bed with them.” That would be crazy! If the person is currently unsafe, your proximity to them is not a good idea. If they had some kind of dangerous disease, you would not want to be in proximity to them until they were better.
Thinking someone can be cured from Ebola, and so you can hang out with them and dinner with them when they’re still actively showing symptoms, is not wise.
Paige: I’ve not heard that analogy before, but I can see the application. Regardless of whether they can be cured or not, you’re actively being abused. You’re actively exposed to this virus so you are still experiencing the negative effects of it.
Anne: I think that’s what people need to think about. Are they currently exhibiting unhealthy abusive behaviors? That’s your indicator, not whether they could stop them in the future. Also being able to recognize the difference between actual healthy behaviors and grooming, which is also hard. This is why it’s important to learn how to set boundaries with your husband.
Harmful Armchair Psychology Examples Pathologize Women
Paige: On that same subject that is harmful with the armchair or pathologizing is the providers who tell women they aren’t healed, are the same people profiting from her desperate desires to be whole.
Anne: Especially if it’s another woman who has been through it. For example, there are women who have been through it, who feel like the codependency model helped them. Who am I to disagree with their experience? I can only disagree with the model.
Paige: When you disagree with the model itself, that’s where ego comes into play. People are like, “No, you’re telling me that I didn’t experience what I did.” I’m literally just saying this model itself is harmful, and here are the reasons why it’s harmful. It continues to blame victims for being active in her own abuse, when that’s not the case.
Anne: There were times when I did 12 step for my husband’s addiction. So I was in “recovery.” doing 12 steps. I worked on “my side of the street” because I thought it worked. That’s what people told me. I had faith in that, and practiced the principles they taught. I found myself repeatedly abused, not understanding abuse and not getting any abuse education. CSAT therapists can fall into this category too.
For an abuse victim, I look back at 12 Step and think I was so much more traumatized than I needed to be at the time. Because of armchair psychology of diagnosis.
Trauma In 12 Step Programs
Anne: I was doing the best I could. I think people trying to help me in 12 step were doing the best they could. I don’t think they had negative intentions. But now thinking back, I’m like, wow, they said super, super harmful things.
It’s too harmful to have a bunch of victims sitting in a circle, not knowing they’re victims of abuse, trying to look at their own character defects rather than realizing, “Wait, we’re victims of abuse. We’re strong, we’re brave. We can get to safety.” Thinking back on that is taking my breath away right now. That was so yucky.
Paige: It’s the hope to not have somebody else experience that yuckiness. When my spouse started CR, Celebrate Recovery, with that 12 step program, and went to their meetings. They had a family-type meal beforehand.
I’d go for the meal and then I’d leave because I was like, this is not my jam. It’s just not for me. People, especially women, within their group would stand near the door to try and interact with me to stop me as I was leaving in very passive-aggressive ways.
Anne: Coercion.
Paige: Coercion, further coercion. That’s a great word for it. They found their own identity and healing in those models. I’m just not keen to participate in models that enable abusers. So much of it, they use terminology to gaslight partners or be like, “Just stay on your side of the street.”
The Street Is Dangerous Because An Abuser Is On It
Anne: That street is dangerous. If he’s on it, it’s not that you need to go on the other side. You need to get off the street. Generally speaking, abusers feel uncomfortable setting boundaries with other people. They don’t mind upsetting their wife, but they lie to their wife to solicit prostitutes, use pornography or do other stuff. They’re good at lying, but they never want to tell her no to her face. Because people perceive that as abusive. He’s not willing to say no.
Paige: Yeah.
Anne: Because he thinks if I maintain this image that I’m on her side, then I’ll still be able to get stuff from her.
Paige: What do I get from this? Many abusers choose to continue to participate because it benefits them.
Paige: “It doesn’t matter that I’m deceptive and abusing my wife. I get this benefit.” There’s always choice. We often negate that choice with labels in pathology.
Armchair Psychology During Pregnancy
Anne: As a midwife, can you talk a little about experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and experiencing betrayal when you are pregnant? And armchair psychology during pregnancy? I had some super traumatic things occur, as I’m sure so many women have who listened when I was pregnant. Especially with my first son. It was so emotionally abusive, crazy, and awful that I ended up on bed rest.
I had a pretty severe contractions and couldn’t get out of bed. Then, in the end, my cervix would not open, not even a little bit, not even after 36 hours of Pitocin. So I had to have a C-section. I had a lot of pregnancy complications. I’m not sure if it was directly due to emotional and psychological abuse, but I feel like it was. A doctor might confirm that. But I felt like all of it was directly related.
Paige: We’ve had women who have shared different levels of abuse. If you feel safe communicating that with your provider, let them know. Unfortunately, not all providers will be safe. That is disappointing, we can’t even find safety during pregnancy and birth.
One of the biggest things in any pregnancy, but especially when dealing with active trauma and abuse, is focusing on nutrition. Nutrition in pregnancy can address many things abuse can typically exacerbate. When we are malnourished, we are not doubling our blood volume physiologically the way we need to.
We are not growing uterine tissue in the ways we need to for the birth process itself. You find eating is hard when abuse is present. The easiest tip for anyone is to eat two eggs per day. It’s one of the best steps to take in terms of nutrition and pregnancy.
Nutrition In Pregnancy Helps The Impact Of Abuse
Paige: You’re getting choline, all types of nutrients, and B vitamins. Eggs actually feed your liver, and your liver is doing a lot of work. It’s not only dealing with the hormones of pregnancy, but also with the hormones of abuse and trauma. Nourishing yourself is one tool that helps counter the epigenetic impacts of abuse and trauma on yourself and your baby.
Anne: Copious amounts of ice cream Is the answer.
Paige: That is a healthy fat for your brain and your baby’s brain. I would use heavy whipping cream on frozen berries. You’re still getting that good fat, it’s so good, yeah. So not seeing me visually, when I talk about nutrition and pregnancy, many people give me a side eye. They’re like, “You’re 260 pounds. You obviously don’t know anything about nutrition. What the heck?”
Nutrition and pregnancy is very different from our society’s definition of our diet culture. There are providers out there who still practice a restriction in pregnancy mindset, where they don’t want women to gain more than 15 pounds. I’ve known recently doctors, they’re like, you don’t need to gain more than 15 pounds. Any more than that, it’s going to be a problem.
Anne: My one son was nine pounds.
Paige: My biggest baby was ten pounds, ten point six ounces. My smallest was five pounds, four point seven ounces, but that was where I was going through the bulk of betrayal recovery. That ended up being a premature delivery, because of my physiological response to trauma. My blood pressure spikes and it spikes high.
Personal Healing Methods That Help
Paige: With nutritional aspects I addressed in my pregnancy, being 10 weeks premature, he came out big, fat, breathing. He didn’t have any issues because of meeting those needs. He was great. I have experienced negative physiological responses to trauma and abuse. I find that involvement with Brazilian jujitsu and training works for me the most.
Anne: Oh, that’s awesome. You found something that helped you heal. I experienced betrayal through all three pregnancies. But, when it was the most intense. I’d go outside and listen to music. If you’ve listened to this podcast since the beginning, you might have heard some of those first episodes of me crying in my basement. Which I’m still in my basement, by the way, in the same room.
But I listened to music and garden. And I actually created a Betrayal Trauma Recovery playlist, so if you go to the bottom of any of the pages on my website, where it says, join the community, you can put your email in there. And one of the emails you’ll receive eventually is to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery music playlist. I would listen to many of the songs I put on this list, or the meditations and gardening.
Go out, stick my hands in the dirt, get my face all dirty, and dig this giant compost pile. It was this literal big, giant pile of dirt, and I would go out with a pitchfork and dig in it. It felt so good to me to just move my body and be with dirt. Some women don’t want to move at all. They want to cocoon themselves in a blanket in their closet. That’s fine too. There are all kinds of methods for processing what we’re feeling. Whatever works is great.
Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Paige: Very relatable with the gardening is a medicinal herb garden. So many of them are so easy to grow at home. I don’t necessarily harvest, it’s more just getting out there and working in that environment.
I have found your community, and the ability to name behaviors for the abuse and choice they are has been one of the most empowering things for myself. Those two things have been huge for me. Being able to recognize what abusive behaviors are and how they’re harmful has been huge. And not having to deal with armchair psychology.
Anne: Would you mind sharing how you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery?
Paige: I have a friend who was in a 14-year marriage with somebody actively emotionally abusive, infidelity, all those things. We had known each other through school, but not really had a close relationship. In the complete explosion and destruction of my marriage, I remembered somebody in passing had mentioned just a snippet of her story. I reached out to her. It wasn’t even about what was happening.
I had asked if she knew this specific person, and she later told me she immediately knew why I was asking. Just in her own gut feeling. We created a friendship, and she shared a link to one of your podcast episodes. That was over four years ago. We will forever have that deep spiritual connection that happens when you navigate such a profound grief that comes with abuse.
Anne: As we conclude here, as you were resisting the abuse, trying to get help, can you talk about the obstacles that stopped you from realizing what was happening?
Armchair Psychology: The Pitfalls of Couples Counseling
Paige: If I could go back in time, I would never have consented to couples counseling. Even though it was my idea like, “Oh crap, we need to get to couples counseling, you had sex with a stranger. We have to go see somebody about this.” It was not the best idea. I know the provider meant well, but they do not know how to deal with the abuse of infidelity, and abusive behaviors. They don’t know how to deal with that.
So couples counseling is not something I would ever do again. I experienced that. I can say, “Hey, listen, this isn’t a good idea.” Until all abusive behavior stops, it’s not safe for you. They tell you to repair something that you didn’t break because of armchair psychology diagnosis of codependency and other pathology.
Anne: Paige, thank you so much for spending so much time sharing your story, sharing your thoughts. If you’re listening and interested in sharing your story on the podcast, email me at podcast@btr.org.
I love listening to all of you and that’s how I’ve learned as much as I have throughout the years, talking to women like you, Paige and hearing your insights. So thank you so much.
Paige: I appreciate you having me on here today. It’s very enlightening on my end, conversing with you about topics that I am passionate about. I appreciate it and the work Betrayal Trauma Recovery does for this community.
Anne: Thank you.
Faith Triumphs Over Ritual Abuse – Anna’s Story
Oct 03, 2023
In this faith-focused podcast episode, Anne Blythe, M.Ed, talks with a victim of ritual abuse. Here’s how one woman’s story can help protect you and your family.
We recognize that many victims of spiritual abuse find religion and spirituality traumatizing, while others find religion and spirituality comforting and healing. Please know that you are welcome and loved in this community, no matter where you are on the spectrum of spirituality.
Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe space for you to process the grief that often accompanies spiritual abuse. Please attend a session today.
How Does Spiritual Abuse Affect Victims?
Spiritual abuse takes many forms. From abusive men using scripture to coerce wives, to clergy counseling victims to “forgive and forget” abuse and infidelity. Victims of religious abuse may find that religion and spirituality are traumatizing. Women in our community experiencing spiritual abuse share that they get triggered when they:
Enter a place of worship
Hear certain verses of scripture
Clergy, other male leadership or congregation members approach them
Hear or sing spiritual songs or hymns
Pray
In the case of Anna M. Jonathan, a member of the BTR.ORG community. The severe spiritual abuse she endured in the form of ritual child abuse did not deter her from engaging in healthy religious and spiritual practices later in life.
Can Victims Of Spiritual Abuse Find Healing?
Many victims of spiritual abuse find healing. Some through disengaging from religious practices, and others through finding a new relationship with their Higher Power.
Victims experience trauma and feel powerless in a scary or painful situation. When this happens over and over, as in instances of psychological and emotional abuse, infidelity, and coercion. Victims may experience a unique level of trauma that makes healing feel impossible.
However, as victims take courageous actions to protect themselves from harm, educate themselves about abuse, and seek community and validation. Healing becomes possible.
Spiritual abuse is one of the most insidious forms of control over another person. Abusers taking advantage of, or completely ruining, another human being’s relationship with their Higher Power is purely cruel.
At BTR.ORG, we want you to know that we trust you however you need to heal from spiritual abuse. Whether that’s by re-engaging with religious and spiritual practices in a new way, or stepping away. We understand and support you.
Transcript: Faith Triumphs Over Ritual Abuse – Anna’s Story
Since this episode deals with Ritual Abuse, to find out more about Ritual Abuse, here are some reputable resources:
Anne: I have a special guest on today’s episode. Her pen name is Anna. We’re not going to get graphic. We will talk around that, we will also talk about how this interacted with her faith.
She and I share the same faith tradition. We’re both still active in our church. So we’re going to be talking about that. For those who are agnostic or different Christian religions or, you are Jewish or Muslim, you are welcome here. We will share our own faith experience. She is a victim of satanic ritual abuse.
Welcome Anna.
Anna: Thank you. I was born into a family where my father was already a member of a satanic ritual abuse occult. And this particular occult was loosely based on the Law of Moses and Mosaic law. There are different definitions of numbers and how things were done. Ceremonies were done according to the ages of people.
They would loosely follow that, but yet would use my church, which I grew up in as a cover. So they were all good members of the church, supposedly, on the outside. But they would meet together and loosely base everything on a Mosaic law. They felt like they were interpreting things in their own way.
Anne: So quickly, when I hear the term satanic ritual abuse occult, I think the people involved worship Satan. You know, they talk about Satan, but you’re saying that’s not the case. The reason why it has that satanic label is because of its evilness.
Ritual Abuse Mimicked Church Heirachy
Anne: But in their actual rituals, they could be referencing God. They could refer to scripture, or in this case, you’re saying the law of Moses. And so like a little kid might not realize this is evil. They might think, “Oh this is just a religious ceremony.” Am I making sense?
Anna: The occult I associated with mimicked the hierarchy in the church. There was a bishop, a prophet, and people in the church type thing or in the occult. So they would mimic certain things. But yet they were strong to do things that made you know, to let you know physically and tangibly that Jesus was not all powerful. Satan was more powerful than Jesus Christ. So, when I say satanic…
Anne: So they did okay…
Anna: Yeah, it’s a power struggle It’s not, do they both exist? Does Jesus exist? And does Satan exist? It’s who’s more powerful.
Anne: And in their minds
Anna: Satan is more powerful, because Satan is tangible, but Jesus Christ is a thing of your imagination.
Anne: Why is Satan tangible to them, just out of curiosity? Because the violence is right there, and they can do it?
Anna: Right there.
Anne: Thank you for explaining that. What’s the definition of satanic ritual abuse occult? Would you say there’s a difference between just satanic ritual abuse and the occult part?
What Satanic Ritual Abuse Occult Means
Anna: I think when someone hears the title satanic ritual abuse occult, they just shut down. When you break it down, it makes a lot of sense. Satanic is just Satan, evil. And ritual is something you do in a precise manner. We all have rituals. Every morning, we get up, brush our teeth, and eat our breakfast. So, a ritual is not evil, but when the ritual is evil.
And occult means out of view or secret. So, you’re just looking at evil things done in a precise manner, abusively, undercover, basically secret.
https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I
Anne: We acknowledge, whoa, this is evil. Do the people who engage in these types of behaviors acknowledge it’s wrong? Do they acknowledge that what they’re doing is what Satan would want? Are they like, yeah, Satan’s proud of us? Or do they just think they’re doing like, what do they think?
Anna: Well, I can’t talk for all of them. I can only talk for the occult which involved me, from my birth. I was born in the later fifties. And back then, you didn’t share a lot about the things in your home. I thought of things happening at home as normal until I married. That’s what people did, even though I didn’t feel good about it.
I got sick a lot as a child. And had mononucleosis for eight months and lots of throat issues. I just thought I was a sickly child. My parents argued a lot, and I had several siblings, and I just thought, well, all families are like that. All families struggle with their parents. When you get to be a teenager, you know, everybody doesn’t like their mom and dad.
Finding Out Something’s Wrong
Anna: Well, I didn’t like my dad. We weren’t allowed to mingle and talk. You just didn’t talk a lot about your family situation. I wasn’t aware until I married and was into therapy. And started doing subcognitive thinking therapy. I started to realize, Whoa, something’s wrong here, and I didn’t understand it. Because I was raised in the gospel of Jesus Christ in the church.
I really tried to live the principles of the gospel in my home. I tried to do everything I was supposed to do through the teachings of the church. And just realized that I fell short all the time, that I wasn’t that good. I always had a bad self esteem, because I just felt like I wasn’t measuring up.
Anne: Not knowing that you had experienced this horrendous, horrific abuse in your home, thinking that something was wrong with you.
Anna: Exactly. And not everyone in my home experienced the same things I was. Some of my siblings were favored. They were more involved in the occult, and others weren’t involved hardly at all. And we didn’t talk between ourselves as I look back and look at other people. And I’ve learned and had education and stuff. I realized whoa, you know our family was…
Anne: How many siblings did you have?
Anna: There are eight children altogether.
Anne: Has anyone since you’ve realized what it was that you experienced, and you’ve started talking about it. Has anyone else confirmed your experience? How has that been with your sibling?
I just knew something was really wrong. I started going suicidal, and this was when I was married. After getting out of the psych unit for the first time, I was told there was a real problem in my marriage. But divorce was never an option because I’d been sealed in the temple.
I just kept trying to figure out what was wrong, that I was doing wrong. And why we always kept hitting brick walls. And so finally, I started going to see a therapist. The therapist didn’t pick up on any spousal abuse or child abuse that were both going on in our home.
But I saw this therapist for four years, and he’s the one that had me read a lot of books and stuff. I realized that in the occult, you are punished if you showed any emotions at all. And I know that’s not just an occult thing. There’s abuse that goes on where, you know, if you show any emotion, you get more abused.
But it was traumatic. If you cried at all or whimpered at all as a child, you were hurt more, horribly abused. And so you learned to not show any emotions. But this therapist started teaching me to listen to myself, to understand my feelings and go with my feelings. That was such a blessing.
Trusting My Feelings & Therapist’s Advice
Anna: So I started listening to the spirit more and trusting my feelings. I started to get the feeling that something was really wrong. Especially when these doctors in the psych unit said there’s something wrong with your marriage. So you need to get into some counseling and stuff.
My husband wouldn’t do it. But it wasn’t long after I got out of the hospital that he left and we separated. People blamed me for keeping him out of the home. My kids wanted to see him so bad, and I just kept saying, no, there’s something wrong. No, he’s not coming back into the home.
And as time went on, the next few months, I ended up with a new therapist. After two sessions, this therapist said, “Would you at least try and consider divorce?” I asked her why, because I was shocked. What had I been saying you would think I needed to get a divorce?
And she said, there were three things. First of all, you can’t stand him touching you. You don’t trust him with your children. And you self destruct in this relationship. And so within two hours after I left her office, I had a divorce attorney. I had finances to pay the attorney, and I’d called my bishop. So I knew I needed to talk to him.
From that point on, I just had to listen to the spirit. I had my two visiting teachers and a sibling that lived about five hours away. This was before cell phones we talked on the phone about every day.
Following My Feelings & Keeping Ritual Abuse Secret
Anna: Those three women encouraged me to follow my feelings, to have the faith and courage to follow the Spirit. Well, we did get a divorce, and that was extremely risky for me to do. Because that could blow the cover for the occult. Because our family was considered the example family for the church. We were sealed in the temple. And we were all active, and we all excelled in our jobs and stuff.
Anne: For listeners who aren’t familiar with our faith, we attend church services on Sunday, and then we also participate in temple ordinances. When she’s talking about the temple, she’s not talking about the satanic ritual abuse occult stuff. We’ve both attended the temple, nothing satanic happens in our temples. So I just wanted to make sure that we separated that out. So as people listen to their story, and they hear you talking about being sealed in the temple.
Which is a beautiful ceremony and peaceful. And the spirit is there, that’s not what she’s talking about. She participated in that with her husband, thinking they had a good relationship. And then this satanic stuff was happening elsewhere. Sorry, I just wanted to make that clear for people who aren’t members of our faith.
Anna: I appreciate that.
Anne: Did you start talking about the abuse during this time? Like, like publicly, you’re saying they didn’t want you to blow the cover. So do you have family members who try to shut you up? Or do they try to stop the divorce?
Choosing Divorce Despite Clerical Advice
Anna: Well, at this time, realizing that I had just come out of the psych unit. about eight months before this. I was on heavy medication. I wasn’t working. And was a stay at home mom. I was heavily sedated. My husband and I were in couples therapy, trying to make our marriage work. But as the months went on, I realized something still didn’t feel right. Despite all the medication and therapy, my relationship with my husband was still toxic and emotionally abusive.
I felt trapped and isolated, and had no support system. I proceeded to get a divorce. Everyone, even my attorney, thought I was going to fail totally. But I had the spirit of the Lord. I had the Lord on my side, and I can testify of that. I went through the divorce, and my bishop was unhappy about it.
Anne: Your bishop did not want you to get divorced?
Anna: No, the day I came home from the therapist, the doors opened like crazy for my divorce. And I went to see my bishop three days later, and I explained everything to him.
I wanted his counsel on it. And he gave me a scripture to read out of the Book of Mormon. He said, if you read this scripture and do what it says, you will get your answer. And when I walked out of his office, I was so discouraged. But the thought came to me: I had asked for his counsel, and I at least needed to try and follow that counsel and see what happened.
Study & Prayer Led Me To Seeking Divorce
Anna: And so I did. I went home that night, and started studying that scripture. I started fasting and praying. And then a couple of days later, I went to the temple. Which the temple for me was a sacred place, and I got my answer in the temple. And it was definitely the answer, I was to divorce. I was shocked, because I thought something must be really wrong for the Lord to sanction a divorce.
I still didn’t understand the whole situation. And so I basically did this on faith. The bishop was shocked when I told him my answer. In fact, he brought me some articles the night before the divorce court about how divorce was not the answer. And I wrote him a card and said I don’t know why, but I know that if I don’t do what I feel impressed to do here. I will be destroyed. It’s not gonna be good.
And I said so I have to do this. I feel so impressed that I need to do this. And so, I did, and about a month later, after the divorce, I felt so much peace. But then I get the impression that I need to educate myself on spousal abuse and child abuse. And you gotta remember that this was 30 years ago. So I go to the library and check out books and reading.
Moving To Get Away From Ritual Abuse
Anna: And then the question came to me, if I’m no longer available, what does the perpetrator do? And in the book I read, it confirmed many times they’ll turn to the children. And I just panicked. That’s when I learned about my children’s abuse, about my abuse. About ten months later, we moved to a whole other state.
It’s one of those stories where I prayed one night and told the Lord that I would go anywhere He wanted me to go. I was hoping we would move near my sibling five hours away, that was so supportive. Because I had no other support from any of my family. But the answer came that I was to move to another state where I knew nobody.
After I fell apart and cried, and wondered why. I pulled up my bootstraps and got ready. About six months later, we moved to another state. We moved and got that far away from my father, from the occult, from my former husband. My kids started talking about all the abuse from their father and grandfather.
I started remembering, piece by piece, all the occult abuse. And I was in therapy for about 14 years, off and on. I had many therapists until I found the one therapist that understood child ritualistic abuse, which affects you in a very different way.
It Is Extremely Difficult To Heal When Raised With Ritual Abuse
Anna: You see things in such a different way when you are in a ritualistic abuse occult as a child growing up in it. I would work with a lot of therapists, and I would get to a point where they would just think, hey, she’s good. And then I would fail really bad, and they couldn’t understand why. But this one psychologist knew what she was doing. She understood it. Now she was Jewish. And so she didn’t believe in Jesus Christ.
And so, as I remembered different things and worked through them. Whenever anything came up where I had a sacred experience, she and I would bump heads a lot. But she knew her stuff. She knew how to work these things through. As I worked them through. And I eventually accepted that I was involved in a satanic abuse situation, which was really hard because I didn’t want to be around anything so hideous.
But then I also realized that I was not responsible. That was another hard thing to get over, and then to put it in the past where it belonged, that it was not who I was now. It wasn’t anything that I would choose. It’s not anything happening to me now. Basically, through all that, my husband kept coming and trying to get custody of the kids, and…
Anna: Yeah. I had full custody of the kids, and he kept coming to the other state, trying to get custody, and he never did. Unless you experience some of it or understand some of it, it sounds crazy. But it’s real and it does happen.
Not Crazy & Confirmations About Abuse
Anne: It does not sound crazy to us. You are not crazy. Did you start talking publicly about it with your family members?
Anna: Well, what’s interesting is when I was in therapy, starting to work through some things, You know, I would remember bits and pieces and I would try and put them together.
And I remember talking to one of my siblings one day and saying, I know this sounds crazy, but I just think this has happened. Do you know anything about it? And she goes, oh yes. She said, “Yeah, this did happen.” And I filled in a piece that she didn’t have.
My kids and I first moved to this new state. I started having dreams. The first thought I had was to call another sibling and say, can you come out and visit me? And when this sibling came out, we talked and I said, do you remember dad doing this? Or, doing that, and she confirmed to me, yes. She filled in a lot of different parts. This really happened, the more things that came out that way. It was just more validating about ritual abuse.
And also back when I started remembering these things. I came across an article written. Someone had done a lot of research about satanic abuse victims, and they had done an in-depth interview study with over 60 people. They said they could have done hundreds more, but they limited it because it is very taxing. And I read it, it was like a 22 page document, and it was so validating. And these were people from all denominations. It was like, okay, I’m not crazy.
Hearing About Others Ritual Abuse Helps To Heal
Anna: Because there are all these people saying, Yeah, these things happened to us. And they weren’t related people. They didn’t interview brothers and sisters. They had different people from all different families. As far as my own family, since I moved to the other state, I have had my one sibling come out and visit me when we first moved, and then another sibling moved close to me, which was great.
And then that’s all. And I haven’t talked publicly about this abuse. I’ve talked to a lot of people individually, and I had many people in my ward that were supportive when I was in therapy, and I talked a lot to them.
Anne: Having experienced abuse from your father and then abuse from your husband, but not recognizing that you were being abused. You’re being severely abused, but you’re not recognizing that you’re being severely abused. Emotional, psychological abuse, you’re going through all this. In the overarching context of spiritual abuse, where they’re pulling in things from like mainstream religion, like our faith, and using it to abuse you.
And not only that, but taking it a step further, mimicking those things and putting them in the context of Satan. So I have some questions about that in that occult. When they say Satan is more powerful, talk about how you realized that Jesus Christ for you is more powerful than Satan. When you were taught differently, and also when your earthly experience, no offense, kind of confirmed it.
Struggling To Understand Evil
Anne: You’re living in this abuse, and trying to obey the commandments. But they confirmed Satan was more powerful. Because despite your obedience, despite your scripture study, your prayer, and everything, abuse still oppresses you. And not even knowing it. So in that situation, it would be easy to think, well, where is my Savior here? This is one of the main effects of spiritual abuse.
So can you talk about that struggle to understand, because your mortal experiences were filled with Satan’s powerful, even overwhelming, tangible evil. How you came to your testimony of Christ?
Anna: When we first moved to the new state. We lived in one place for 14 years and we had five incredible bishops. Mostly because the first bishop was young, and new, a newly created ward. He was very dedicated.
Anne: For listeners who aren’t familiar with our faith, when we say the word ward, what we mean is congregation. And the congregations are volunteers. We don’t have any paid clergy. And the Bishop is called, which means assigned for three to five years, usually, sometimes seven. To manage the ward, to manage the congregation. And then they’re released and someone else is called.
So I just wanted to give background so people could understand what you were saying. So thank you. Keep going.
Anna: That’s great. And they’re lay people. He was so unfamiliar with the abuse that I was talking about, parents abusing their children and grandchildren.
Understanding The True Nature Of Jesus Christ
Anna: Even it was so foreign to him, but he was willing to listen to the spirit, and he did go to the temple often. And he told me I have to fast, pray, and go to the temple a lot, because I just don’t get this. But he was so supportive. And so in turn, he mentored the other four bishops. When bishops changed, or moved into other wards in that same stake.
And so we were extremely blessed in that way. So when I moved to another part of the state, it was a different story with the male clergy, the bishops of our ward. And so this first bishop I worked with, the question came up, how do I see Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father? And for the first time, when I finally expressed that and was honest with my feelings.
Then we started to work to understand the true nature of Jesus Christ and my Father in Heaven, and who they were. My bishops helped me separate how they were different from Satan. They weren’t the same at all, and that took years and years. And finally, as I continued to work through the different experiences I had. Which sometimes included some sacred experiences.
And when I remembered those sacred experiences. I started to understand how Jesus Christ saw me and how my Heavenly Father saw me. It started to change my perception of how I saw them. It finally came before we moved from this area, and lived there for about 14 years.
Christ Is More Powerful Than Fear
Anna: I could see myself standing with my Savior and my Father in Heaven. I wore a beautiful white dress, and I felt confident standing with them, realizing there was a horrific difference between them and Satan. I knew they were both real, but that thought in my mind always lingered there for a long time.
But who is more powerful? And it has just been the daily scripture reading, the following the spirit. My life is in segments. Each experience is tucked away deep inside of my soul. And finally, when I was able to get in therapy and work them through, and start connecting them and saying, “Oh, this is why this happened.” I could finally see Jesus Christ woven throughout my life, even through the most horrific experiences. I could see that he was always there.
The Savior always strengthened me. But it’s been hard to get rid of the fear and allow the faith in Jesus Christ to be more powerful than the fear. I made a big change, when I let go of the fear and strive to have faith. And it’s hard.
Anne: Did you ever consider going a non religious route, like in this struggle, is Christ or Satan more powerful? Did you ever consider thinking, well, maybe this whole thing is just a bunch of hogwash? There is no Jesus. There is no Satan. This is just a way to control and oppress people, I am out. Did you ever consider that route, or was that not ever part of your thought process?
An Experience Of Abuse & Control
Anna: I knew they were both real. I knew from experience that Jesus was real. And I knew from experience that Satan was real. And so no, it’s all a bunch of baloney, was never an option. No. One or the other was more powerful.
This is an experience when I was four years old. I had a green Western dress that I loved because it twirled. My father and I were at his workplace, and he worked on machinery. We were all by ourselves, in a secluded area, and nobody else around, and he wanted me to ____. So at four years old, I told him no. And I started walking for the door, and he had a cigarette lighter that he used in his work.
And he started the back of my dress on fire, and I was almost to the door. I mean, it was so close next to him, so there was no place to run. He knew the fire wouldn’t explode, because I wouldn’t run anywhere. And then he had a bucket of water right next to him that he used in his work. And I started to scream, and he put the fire out immediately.
Well, I You know, he took me in his arms, and I just sobbed and sobbed. And he just then told me, he just said, do not ever tell me no again. And so that was impressive. I mean, it was like people wonder, well, why did you keep doing this stuff? Or why as an adult did you do things he told you to do?
Continuation Of Ritual Abuse & Control
Anna: Well, that was when I was four years old. There are other things that happened when I was 12, that even intensified, that don’t ever tell me no. He told lies about how my dress burned after that. And I knew he was a liar. At that time, I was so confused.
He had started me on fire, but he was my dad. He saved me. And I remember saying a prayer as a four year old after that, and telling Heavenly Father, I don’t want to be here anymore. I want to come home. I want to be with you. And I remember the Savior coming to me Himself. I came to about His knees, and I can remember feeling His robe and feeling His arms. down around me. And I knew that he came to let me know that he was there, and that I would be okay.
Because I couldn’t tell anybody what my daddy had done, because he would hurt me more. And so, as an adult, I realized that I gained confidence about me as the four year old. Because to tell my dad no was pretty gutsy of a little four year old girl. That experience helped me. It gave me some confidence and courage that helped me get through the things that were going to happen. When I was 18, it was hideous. That got so overwhelming that I had a near death experience.
Yeah, it’s been a rough ride. But as I have understood more and more, it becomes my catalyst for why I’m here. A lot of people need encouragement to know that our heavenly parents, and I’m talking mother, are so involved in our lives.
Good Will Triumph Over Evil
Anna: It’s amazing. Jesus Christ and our Father in Heaven and Mother in Heaven are real. And they are true, they know exactly what’s going on. They are here, and they are helping. They know our struggles, but they also know that we’re going to win. We’re going to be okay. And our children are too.
Anne: That good will triumph over evil.
Anna: It will.
Anne: Our Savior is more powerful than Satan. Even if our earthly experiences feel like hell, thank you so much for sharing such sacred experiences. I appreciate that hell is now it’s never going to get worse than this. And we are experiencing it.
Anna: I love that. And that is so awesome. You are right. And yes, hell can get hellisher and hellisher, you know, it can get worse and worse. It seems you’re right. And even now, especially in these last days, you know, Satan is rampant, but that’s why we are here.
That’s why you’re here and doing this incredible work. That’s why we’re here to touch lives and say. Sisters, keep going forward. You’re doing an incredible work, and don’t give up or get discouraged. You know, and throw your hands up at times. But keep reaching out to us who are here to say, keep going, it’s worth it.
However it works out, it’s going to be okay. I just keep hanging on to my covenants. Because I know they’re real, and I know they’re true. I just want you and all the other incredible sisters to know that they are here for a reason, now. And you are good enough, and you will make it.
We Can Get To Safety From Abuse
Anna: And you know, when you’re in the middle of it, just keep getting up every day. Just keep moving forward. Just keep moving forward, even though you don’t know where you’re at half the time. You know, just keep moving forward and it will work out. It doesn’t work out the way we think it’s going to a lot of times, but it will work out.
Anne: Anna and I spent some time together crying after this. I actually stopped recording because it got intense emotionally. So as I’ve been doing this for so long, you know, talking about pornography is because it’s evil. It’s because it is the epitome of evil and wickedness. And wickedness is harmful to our souls, and anyone who uses it. The darkness that surrounds it is so dark and so harmful. I just want you to feel the fruits of your own good choices.
When you marry someone who uses pornography, and they’re continually emotionally and psychologically abusing you, it’s very difficult to feel the fruits of our own good choices. That is why God wants us to separate from wickedness in whatever way it’s going to be safe for us. But we can get to emotional and psychological safety.
What You Need To Know About Reunification Therapy
Sep 26, 2023
Women all over the United States think they’re doing the right thing, divorcing their abusive husband. That the court will help them protect their children from abuse. But instead, the court orders the children to reunification therapy. Here’s what everyone needs to know about reunification therapy.
Therapy should, first and foremost, empower children. Reunification therapy does the exact opposite. “Professionals” re-abuse children, subjecting them to reunification therapy by gaslighting them into blaming their protective parent for the negative feelings they have for the abuser. Abusers not only traumatize the children by the gaslighting itself, but also children are:
Often forced into participation against their will.
Accused of lying about the abuse.
Forced to spend time with their abuser.
Isolated from their protective/preferred parent.
Considering how harmful Reunification Therapy is, how can it possibly exist? It’s a “lucrative cottage industry” that abusers have weaponized to gain access to their child victims, while causing inexpressible pain to the protective parent. And those in the reunification industry continue to push for it because it lines their pockets.
If you’re experiencing the trauma of the family court system, please attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today – you are not alone and you do not have to endure this on your own. We love you, we believe you.
Transcript: What You Need To Know About Reunification Therapy
Anne: I have a super special guest on today’s episode. It’s Tina Swithin, and so many of you are familiar with her. Tina is an internationally recognized blogger and champion of children’s rights in the family court system. She endured a 10 year family court battle representing herself, and against all odds was successful in protecting her children.
Tina works to raise awareness on the shortcomings and failures of the family court system, while educating the public on post separation abuse and narcissistic abuse.
Anne: Welcome Tina.
Tina: Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Happy to connect.
Anne: We had the privilege of meeting in person in a protest in Utah about family court and how it does not protect children. You may have seen us do an Instagram live during that time. So I wanted Tina to talk about a few issues related to family court, and how in most states, for a protective parent seeking a divorce from an abusive parent, that protective parent has a very hard time protecting her children.
Anne: On my podcast, because our audience is women who have been abused by men, I speak in gender segregated ways, simply because that is our audience. But I want to recognize that women can also be abusive. However, for our listeners, since they’re all women victims of male abusers, that’s why I talk like this.
Reunification Camps, DCFS & Therapy
Anne: Should we start with reunification camps and maybe reunification therapy?
Tina: Yes, I think that’s a good place to dive in. And it’s a hot topic right now. It’s something that has infiltrated the family court system and is definitely not in a child’s best interest.
Anne: So I have a friend who’s a pediatrician, and sometimes she refers cases she sees in her pediatric office to DCFS, which is Division of Child and Family Services here in Utah. She reports cases in Utah, they never return as supported. Every time she reports child abuse in the state of Utah, it comes back as unsupported.
And the reason it comes back as unsupported is because usually it’s the safe parent, like a safe mom, that brings the child into the pediatrician’s office, and it happened at an ex-husband’s home. And when DCFS talks to the man accused of the abuse, as long as he has a reason.
If he says, “Oh, no, that didn’t happen.” What happened was I was trying to, help with her homework, or explain to him how to do this. Or he says, “Sorry I lost my temper, but I’m a good dad.” As long as he explains it, and he doesn’t say yes, I am an abuser. It comes back as unsupported. She has no way to help these protective moms protect their kids from abuse. In many cases, kids don’t want to go.
Tina: To piggyback on what you said, it’s a universal problem across the entire country. And I believe there are two things at play.
Bias Against Protective Moms In Family Courts
Tina: Number one, there is a strong bias that moms make up abuse allegations to get a leg up in custody. So as soon as they hear there is any type of family court case or child custody situation, they cannot close it fast enough. That’s a lot of what we’re up against. The second factor is that they see horrors daily. And the threshold for what’s acceptable is so skewed.
The majority of situations that they are investigating don’t even register on their scale of abuse or neglect. And it’s really unfortunate, because this is an entity that is failing our kids. And when a mom is in the family court system, she has very few resources to support her truth and her side of the story.
Most people walk into this naively, believing that these other organizations are there to act in a child’s best interest. And so they walk in with this false sense of hope that if a pediatrician does report it, it will bolster their case and their ability to protect their child. I tell people in family court, I don’t believe reports do anything except a paper trail.
If you get enough of them, it can start to have an impact. But, you know, when moms are in family court, there are many, many challenges that they are facing. And CPS findings are just one of those.
Anne: So your first barrier is number one, thinking that reporting. is going to help. This is a big problem in fighting a narcissist for custody.
The He Said, She Said Dilemma
Anne: They do a very quick investigation. It’s unsupported if he gives a “good reason.” Then you look like the bad guy for claiming he’s abusive when he’s not. And the only thing he had to do was say, no, no, no, I’m not abusive. That negates both the victim’s account, which is the child, and then also the safe parent’s account.
Tina: Right, and I think a large part of the problem in family court is that it is he said, she said. Family Court has the same issue that CPS does. The threshold will skew for what is acceptable. So they take someone’s word at face value. The majority of things happening in family court are considered hearsay.
The family court system becomes annoyed with people, you know, they don’t understand the dynamics at play. That this is typically one high conflict individual, and one parent desperate to protect their children. The court lumps the protective parent into the same category. And. It’s really difficult to go in with solid evidence, because abusers do not abuse children in broad daylight. They do sometimes, but it’s rare. Usually, what is happening is behind closed doors.
We’re dealing with a court system that is if, at a very minimum, they have 101 training on domestic violence. But most family court judges and professionals have no training on these issues. And so when you get into the more complex coercive control, it’s an uphill battle.
You know, there’s a reason why it took a decade in my case to finally terminate rights. And that’s a common scenario. I tell people, if your case is not still active when your kids age out of the system, it’s somewhat of a miracle.
Reunification Therapy Disempowers Children
Anne: You know, it’s interesting, because abuse advocates will go into schools. Or talk to kids and say, if this is happening, do you reach out to a safe adult and report? And they think that if they could get kids to report their abuse, they could be protected. If a child says, “My parent abuses me” in court, that child must prove they’re abused. It’s so difficult to stop emotional abuse from your husband.
If they just say, my parent abuses me, and the accused parent says, no, no, that’s not what’s happening. The court gives them no protection. Children’s cries for help, doing what adults told them to do. They were like, okay, I went to that assembly, and now I’m going to reach out and ask for help. I’m going to report that this is happening to me. And then a system further abuses them, that won’t believe them or discounts their accounts.
Tina: Right, and these professionals barely trained in the 101 of domestic violence don’t understand victim perpetrator behaviors. And how children present when telling these stories. A statement I heard in the past few months resonates with me. “It’s easier for people to believe that a child is coached to disclose these things, than to believe that a child is abused.” We don’t believe this darkness in society, but it is there.
Accusations Of Coaching & Alienation
Tina: And we have to start listening to these kids. When a child is a victim of abuse, and finally feels empowered. And brave enough to report. The healthy parent, the mom in most situations, fights accusations of coaching them. Or the big word in the family court system, which has infiltrated and created an absolute disaster, alienation.
They accuse you of alienation. Abusers employ that legal strategy to turn the tables and focus and spotlight on what’s going on. What they have been doing behind closed doors, and shift the blame to the parent who is just trying to protect their child.
https://youtube.com/shorts/34WXrOpiGG4
Anne: So a child desperately wants no contact and no exposure to further abuse. In the form of just being around their abuser. The court says in so many cases, “No, your parent coached you into saying that. You’re not actually abused. Your parent that you say is abusing you is fine, he’s a great guy. In fact, you need to get your story straight. And so we will court order you to reunification therapy.”
This reunification therapy can take many forms. They can essentially kidnap or traffic the children and take them across state lines to a reunification camp. The court forces children to do therapy and reconcile with their abuser in reunification therapy. And they force the child to improve or repair their relationship with their abuser.
Reunification Therapy: A Closer Look
Anne: So can you talk about both forms of reunification torture, let’s call it?
Tina: Sure, it is, that is what it is. The way I describe it, if there is a finding of abuse and everyone’s on board and believes this is happening, it cuts off the financial flow of money. Because we know we cannot fix an abuser.
Anne: Really quickly, let’s just pretend for a minute that they were like, “Oh, child, you’re abused? Okay, you don’t have to go with your dad. Your mom gets full custody.” The end, and the custody case is over. The divorce case is over and signed. They just go their merry way.
Are you saying that if that would happen, then all the custody evaluators, guardian ad litems, therapists, et cetera. That are part of this system, would not be able to make money? Because they make money off of these court ordered requirements?
Tina: Absolutely.
Anne: So, They’re all kind of in on it.
Tina: I think there are some who believe they are doing the right thing. You know, there is this common thought, that two parents are better than one, no matter what, is a common thought you know. I don’t agree with that. I think a child needs one healthy adult in their life to thrive.
Judges & The Alienation Industry
Tina: But, that’s a large part of the bias we’re up against in the family court system. And so we have a range of professionals who believe they’re doing the right thing. Or they may be doing the right thing. To people who, this is their financial livelihood. And, from that, we see rings of collusion or outright corruption throughout the family court system. A lot of people motivated by their own bank accounts don’t prioritize the best interests of a child.
Anne: One of my questions is, since it’s the guardian ad litems, custody evaluators and therapists that get the money from this. A judge gets a regular salary from the county or state. They’re not necessarily paid more if they send more kids to reunification therapy, for example.
Tina: I think that when we’re looking at judges and why they would order this. If they have a regular salary and don’t get more money. There are those who believe they are doing the right thing, and they’ve drank the Kool Aid. That these professionals have poured.
I call it the alienation industry. It’s a lucrative cottage industry. So the trainings that the judges are taking in, they are seeing these people as experts. Overbooked calendars cause judges to force people through this system, like cattle, and the judges are in this state of overwhelm.
They almost have, I call it, the a la carte menu on their desk. Oh, great, I can push this case off on this person who can dive in and investigate what’s going on.
Reunification Therapy Is Traumatizing
Tina: But that person is financially motivated to label a parent as alienator.
Anne: Like a custody evaluator, for example, or a guardian ad litem. Because if they say, nope, this is just an abuser, and the kid shouldn’t go with them. Then they’re not able to charge their hourly rates anymore.
Tina: Absolutely, and then they force the child through reunification therapy, it’s not successful. You can’t force two people into a relationship that’s fractured. Common sense tells us this. Or if there is no bond in the first place. That has to be something that works naturally, not with forced intervention. And especially in cases where abuse occurs. This is further traumatizing these children.
So when these children are not complying or going along with the program, the extreme situation would be for the reunification therapist to recommend reunification therapy camp. That’s a very extreme and further traumatizing direction that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. The stories haunt me.
Anne: The logic that judges have so many cases that they’re like, I’m just too overwhelmed, so I’m going to pass this off to a custody evaluator is interesting. Because if they do that, there are more and more hearings.
There’s more and more to do when that happens. If they really wanted to clear their docket, they’d just be like, Oh, this child says she’s being abused. I’m just going to listen to the kid and declare this over. I think it’s ironic if they’re like, Oh, I’m so overwhelmed. That they would choose the thing that makes way more work for themselves.
Abusers Weaponize Reunification Therapy
Tina: But they know that these cases are high conflict. Some people don’t like that word, but it is the label used or that phrase. And so regardless of which direction it goes, they’re going to keep filing. A lot of these abusive individuals are vexatious litigants, where they use the family court system as their playground. They continue their reign of terror and control, it’s not going to stop the case. They’re going to keep trying.
So in the case of Ty and Brindley Larson. We had Child Protective Services come in and make multiple findings of abuse, which, as we’ve discussed, is incredibly rare. Not only did they substantiate the abuse, they labeled some sexual abuse and other types chronic and severe.
And when that happened, it completely took the case out of family court, and the kids were protected. And the kids did not have to see their abuser. There was actually a restraining order in place. I believe it was for 150 days. And, and at that point, the alleged abuser brought the case back into family court.
And before you know it, there were multiple professionals put into place. A reunification therapy therapist, minors council, and all of a sudden these children are being forced back into visits with their alleged abuser. And not only visits but overnight visits.
Anne: This isn’t alleged at this point, right? Because DCFS supported it?
Tina: Some people say because he didn’t go through the criminal justice system and wasn’t convicted. That it’s still better to use alleged.
Anne: Oh, alright.
Tina: There’s a reason why it didn’t go through the criminal justice system, in my opinion, but…
The Trauma Of Reunification Therapy Camps
Anne: So the court orders them to have contact with their abuser, and then when they refuse, they’re like, heck no, we’re not going. They barricade themselves in their room. Then the court orders them to reunification camp. So let’s talk more about what this reunification therapy or reunification camp entails.
Tina: So reunification therapy is forcing a child against their will to contact their alleged abuser. And I’m speaking in general terms. And if the child doesn’t want to participate or speaks out about what’s happening. The court considers them severely alienated, and then they are subject to reunification camps.
Anne: When you say severely alienated, what you mean is people think these kids have been brainwashed so much by the protective parent. There’s this other parent who has brainwashed these kids, coached them into thinking they were abused when they actually were not.
Tina: Exactly, so when the court labels them as severely alienated, the solution these people propose is reunification camp. And these are four day intensives.
They call them therapy. I cannot call this therapy. Reunification therapy is traumatizing for these kids. They are cut off from all contact with their preferred parent. The court sends them to this camp. We’ve reviewed testimony where some camp owners talk about what happens on each day of the camp. The first day they are told that nothing in the past matters.
How Do Reunification Therapies and Camps Traumatize Children?
Tina: We are only focused on here and now and future movement. And then when the kids bring up, but he did this to me or this, they redirect them back to the present day. The past does not matter. And we are talking about children who have been sexually abused. You know, I can’t imagine being put in a room with my abuser, let alone my abuser receiving full custody of me. And me being forced to have a relationship.
Everyone I, you know, I explained this reunification therapy to says, it sounds medieval. How is this happening? And Everyone says it sounds like a racket because it is. These camps cost around, I’ve heard anywhere between 15,000 and 40,000 dollars for a weekend.
Anne: It’s 50/50, meaning the protective parent must pay 50 percent of the fees. So not only are they punished, they can’t see their child or that their child is taken away. But also because it’s a financial burden for them to have to pay for the abuser to have contact with their child.
Tina: It’s usually divided 50/50, but there are lots of different situations where that has gone in different directions. But we heard a story recently where a mom pleads to the court that she could not afford the camp and was told to cash out her daughter’s college fund to pay for it.
Anne: Wow.
Tina: And so on day two of these reunification therapy camps, they’re forced to play memory games to show them that their memory is not always accurate. That their preferred parent or protected parent was lying. And that the abuse did not happen. And so it’s professional organized gaslighting.
Kidnapping & Psychological Warfare Of Reunification Therapy
Tina: When I read the actual words from the people who own the reunification therapy camp. Any psychologist who understands these dynamics would say this is gaslighting.
Anne: Psychological warfare, really of children.
Tina: Absolutely.
Anne: With the reunification therapy camps, they kidnapped the kids right?
Tina: Yeah, and they often cross state lines. Many times they are operating out of Air B&Bs or in hotel suites. There are a few camps, physical locations. There’s one in Texas, and one in California. The way they avoid human trafficking charges by crossing state lines, they transfer custody at each leg.
So when the transport agents remove the children, you have guardianship. Then when they take the children to the camp, they transfer custody to the camp owner. And then ultimately, the alleged abuser maintains custody. The way it’s written in the court orders, the people who own the camp maintain full control of the case for at least a year.
Once the four day reunification therapy camp is complete, in all these cases, the preferred parent isn’t allowed back in. There’s a 90 day blockout period where they’re allowed no contact. And if contact is made or attempted, the 90 days starts all over again. But it’s never 90 days. We have stories where parents have been two years, four years without their children. Some parents don’t even know where their children are two years later.
Systematic Child Abuse & Survivors Speaking Out About Reunification Therapy
Anne: It is a systematic form of child abuse.
Tina: Absolutely. And I think it can be even more traumatizing and abusive than what the kids have already been through. The stories I’ve heard from these survivors would break a healthy grown adult. So these kids will be the change.
Tina: They are starting to age out of the system and speak out about these things. The media is finally paying attention and covering these stories. And I think it’s a matter of time before it is exposed for what it is. It’s human trafficking.
Anne: A podcast called Civic interviewed Tina. The title is The Industry of Defending Child Abusers. It’s an in-depth investigative report of this, reunification therapy, and it’s really detailed. It’s excellent.
Personal Stories Of Struggle Against Abuse
Anne: Due to the financial and litigation abuse you experienced through the 10 years of legal abuse you endured. You needed to do your case pro se, which means you represented yourself. And so I am so proud of you and impressed by you. That you did that and that you just kept fighting for your kids. That’s awesome. Your story was so inspirational to me.
After my divorce, my ex still abused my children and me for eight years. It was horrific. Every day was a struggle. I lost a custody battle when I thought the court would help me. And so I thought there had to be a way to beat him out of court. Through a lot of trial and error, I developed strategies that worked for me. It was a miracle. And then I didn’t know if it was just a fluke, so I asked other victims, “Hey, will you try these strategies out? Because I want to see if they work for you.”
And we found so much success. So I put all the strategies I used to get my kids and I to safety in the BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. These strategies work if you’re still married or divorced, either way. Because they help women understand what he’s doing, why, and what he wants out of it. And how to cut that off. When my ex signed those papers, it was such a relief, I almost couldn’t believe it. It was like, is this real. This is a way you can help the child of a narcissist.
Deliverance & Protection From Abuse
Anne: It took a while to sink in. That I had been successful. The peace I felt since then has been overwhelming. You too were finally able to protect your children, and get them away from their abusive father. Can you talk about how you felt when this happened to you?
Tina: You know, it was interesting that you ask, because I’ve shared this with close friends and family members where I had visualized for so long what that day would feel like, because that’s what we hope for. That’s what we pray for. He wasn’t allowed to call the girls on the day visits finally ended. It was no contact period.
I walked out of the courthouse, and imagined a flood of tears and this huge relief, because that juncture was around the six year mark. I left that courthouse in shock. Almost in a disassociative state. It had been six years of living in fight or flight mode.
I slept with a hammer under my pillow for a time, because I was in fear for our lives. It took me about three months for peace and before the floodgates opened. I started to process what had happened, and I’m still in therapy. My case started 13 years ago, and I’m still processing the trauma.
I often say the post separation abuse and watching what my children endured without being able to protect them. Which is what nature intended me to do, was far more abusive than what I experienced during my relationship. And I think the family court system and institutional betrayal are to blame for that.
Shocking End To The Story
Anne: Absolutely, these people should help you. They should protect you. Everyone says report as if that’s the solution. My kids still have limited contact, but it works in my case with my specific situation. Knowing that everyone’s situation is different, I think, is important too. So let’s go back to the story of Ty and Brinley.
Do you know what happened when the Utah Attorney General, Sean Reyes, got involved with the case with Ty and Brinley and sent people down to Provo to observe? Do you know what happened with the details of that?
Tina: I have no idea why nothing came of that, because it gave everyone so much hope to know that the Attorney General’s office assigned someone to pay attention to this case and watch the final days of these hearings in Judge Pullen’s courtroom, but the ruling that came down is shocking to everyone.
Every time I speak to a journalist or media person and explain that this dad received full custody. Even though there are findings of severe and chronic abuse. But that Judge Pullen gave him full custody. Full custody, yet he can’t be unsupervised with his own kids. The court orders the kids separated and put into two different houses with paternal family members versus their mom.
And so the fact that the Attorney General was witness to that unfolding is mind blowing to me.
Difficult Choices To Protect Children
Anne: Yeah, it is crazy. I’m constantly shocked. Recently, the same pediatrician I was talking about at the beginning gave these pictures of bruises on these children to court. They testified about abuse. And the guardian ad litem in that case, and the judge both said, Oh, yeah, I don’t think that that counts as abuse. No problem, 50/50 custody.
Tina: Unbelievable.
Anne: It is shocking, especially in a state like Utah that thinks children are important, apparently. And I’m like, apparently not. Apparently, they value men’s exploitative privilege.
Tina: Absolutely, I think that sums up most of what we’re all up against. In terms of a parent still in the abusive relationship. It’s heartbreaking to me, because I get the messages saying, I’ve read your story. Or I watch what’s happening on your blog with other stories. I would rather stay, because I know that I have a better chance of protecting my kids.
And what a failure this system is, when victims of domestic abuse would rather stay in the relationship than risk losing their children to their abuser. That is a failure in itself. But I cannot emphasize the importance of understanding your local system, learning it like the back of your hand. Really entrenching yourself in who the judges are, who the bad and good players are and having an attorney that truly gets it.
I always struggle or hesitate to use this term, but radical acceptance. It is not a system that’s in children’s best interest. And unfortunately, it is a system that requires a tremendous amount of strategy. And it shouldn’t, and that’s not fair, and it’s not just, but that’s the reality of what we’re up against.
The Importance Of Documentation & Laws When Faced With Reunification Therapy
Tina: So document everything, and people cringe when I say that. I always say 99 percent of my documentation isn’t seen by anyone, but I would do it all again. Because the 1 percent I was able to showcase in court or in custody evaluations is what protected my kids. Last year, with the Violence Against Women’s Act passing at the federal level, it’s the first time. The federal government recognized that we have a crisis in the family court system.
They passed Kayden’s Law with VAWA. You can find out more about it at nationalsafeparents.org It incentivizes states, and I don’t remember the exact dollar amounts, but it incentivizes states to adopt Kayden’s Law.
One of the things it will do is restrict expert testimony to those who are appropriately qualified to provide it. The standards for the experts, there are many people in the alienation industry pushing their own agenda. And so it will create a standard for expert testimony, which is long overdue. You would think that would be common sense in the family court system, but unfortunately it’s not. And it would limit the use of reunification therapy and camps.
There is no proof that reunification therapy, and camps are safe and effective. So it’s going to address the issue we’ve talked about here today. And it’s going to require that family courts consider past abuse. And right now they don’t, you know, they, they can say that just because he abused you, doesn’t mean he abused the kids, and they’re so wrong on that.
The Need For Evidence-Based Training
Tina: And they’re calling for evidence-based training for judges and family court professionals. Which, again, just seems like common sense. My dog groomer must have a certain amount of hours to receive her certification to groom my dog. Yet our family court judges have no training. That needs to stop.
Anne: The parental alienation side trains them. They’re going to conferences where people are talking about this. They think, okay, it’s fine that they train me about alienation, which protects child abusers. But heaven forbid, you require me, no way! Why do I need to get trained about child abuse? I know everything already.
I see this quite a bit, and it’s super, super annoying to me and traumatic to me that certain therapists or guardian ad litems or custody evaluators think so highly of themselves that they are flattered by the abuser. So they think they’ve turned him into a safe person. They’re like, “Oh, here we have this man who’s been abusive in all these ways. And I, through my helpful guidance, will tell him, Hey, you’ve been abusive and you’ve been terrible.” And then when he grooms them and says, “I know that was wrong. I’m not ever going to do that again.”
They pat themselves on the back as if, so good that I was part of this case. It’s so nice now that these parents can co parent together. And these kids can be safe, and they can have their dad in their life. And everything is going to be okay now, because I did such a good job,
Tina: Right
Narcissism In Family Court Professionals
Tina: I think there’s a high level of narcissism in our family court professionals. I think there’s a range between that high level of narcissism and financial incentive. That it’s in their best interest to keep these kids going through this pipeline of alienation services. And all of it. So I think that’s a huge issue in the family court system.
Anne: You should focus on yourself if you’re involved in your own current situation. You don’t need to change the world right now, but learn strategy and how to keep yourself safe at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We have The Living Free Workshop, a BTR strategy workshop.
If you’re not involved in your own case and horrified by this, which I hope you are. I hope you feel angry. I hope you feel upset. And I hope that that justifiable righteous anger motivates you to get more educated about this. Go to nationalsafeparents.org and find out how you can support a law like Kayden’s Law passed in your state.
And then also, please, if you have a social media account, which I totally support you if you do not, post about this. Post comments to Civic – The Industry of Defending Child Abusers, Tina’s interview and this, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Just talk to people about it and get the word out that this is occurring.
Most people I talked to, especially in my case, when I said I had a supported domestic abuse case, right? And he pled guilty. They think the next thing is, oh, I’m so glad you’re safe. I’m glad your kids don’t have to go with him. And when I say the next thing, no, he actually got more custody. The shock ensues, right?
The Role Of Everyday Citizens To Stop Reunification Therapy
Anne: Most people are unaware that this is happening. So helping get the word out is the most important thing I think people can do.
Tina: When everyday citizens who are not affected by the family court system link arms with us and demand better for our children. That’s where we will see a change, because it’s so easy to label all of us as hysterical moms. That bias is overwhelming. People not involved in family court need to stand with us in outrage and reach out to their legislators and put this on their radar. That it is an absolute crisis.
Anne: They hurt our children, it’s a crisis. I met with a legislator about Kayden’s Law here in Utah, and I said to him, “Currently, there are safe parents trying to protect their own children from a known child abuser, and the court prohibits them from protecting them. And the more they try to protect their kid, the worse off it gets for everybody.”
Tina: Absolutely.
Anne: Well, Tina, thank you so much for your hard work. We appreciate everything you do to bring this issue to light. So thank you so much for talking with me today.
Tina: Thank you.
Staying Married After Infidelity? – Linda’s Story
Sep 19, 2023
If you’re staying married after infidelity, it may be helpful to hear the stories of other women who have also chosen this path. If you want to stay married, but you’re also looking for safety, consider The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to give you strategies to use to keep yourself emotionally and psychologically safe after his betrayal.
Transcript: Staying Married After Infidelity? What You Need To Know
Anne: We have a member of our community on today. I’m going to call her Linda. She discovered her husband of nearly 17 years had been repeatedly unfaithful to her throughout their marriage. Linda decided to use some of The Living Free Strategies while staying married after infidelity.
The Living Free Workshop is to help women determine the type of character their husband has through strategy. In Linda’s case, she decided to use the strategies and stay with her husband. So Linda, let’s start with your story. How would you have described your marriage before you discovered your husband’s infidelity?
Linda: Before I found out, I would have called our marriage an idyllic marriage. I would have said that we had pretty much a storybook relationship. We were best friends, were each other’s favorite person in the whole world. We’ve always enjoyed spending time together. All of our friends, all of our family, a lot of them look to us as the example for marriage. It seemed, it seemed really great.
The Devastation Of Discovery Day
Anne: What was it like to realize that everything you believed was a lie?
Linda: It was devastating. It shattered my whole world. I’ve described it to people like a puzzle. If our life is a puzzle. And before that day, I felt like my puzzle was all together, all the pieces fit. It was a really pretty puzzle. And that day, when I found that out, it was as if someone took that puzzle and just threw it. The pieces went everywhere, maybe some of them even broke and went under pieces of furniture or something.
And, for the next however many months staying married after infidelity, it was this scramble. This panicky scramble to try and find all those pieces and get them to fit back together. Except now I realized they don’t fit. All this perfect picture that I thought I had, isn’t what I thought it was, and it doesn’t fit together like I thought it did.
Anne: We’ve talked about D-Day on the podcast before, which means Discovery Day. The day you find out that your husband lied to you, d-day the reality you’re living in is not actual reality, right? It is mind bending.
Navigating The Fog Of Infidelity With Truth
Linda: if I’m honest, I would say the first at least three months, maybe longer than that. After the first D-Day, I didn’t navigate it. I went into this deep, deep, deep fog staying together after infidelity, and I didn’t know which way was up, and I didn’t even try. I call it a zombie phase where you’re dead on your feet. You get up, and go through the motions. And you do the things that need doing.
I have very few memories of that time, and it was almost like I was just a robot or something going through that time. I don’t know. My brain was just off. I really, really struggled with my relationship with God during that time. And didn’t understand how he could let that happen. I had spent my whole life following him, praying for my husband and for our marriage. It felt like God had betrayed me too. I was angry, really angry with him.
I would pray and say terrible things to him. It was an awful time, but he pursued me through that time and was patient with me through my tantrums. After several months, I did eventually start to believe what he says in his word about me, about him. Eventually I got through that fog by believing truth.
Anne: I felt a similar thing during the worst fog, which was a nine month period after my husband’s arrest. I couldn’t feel God at all. In spite of my prayers, in spite of my scripture study, and it was such a difficult time.
Linda: Yeah.
Staying Together After Infidelity? Finding Comfort In Scripture
Anne: And now out of the fog, I can see him during that time when I was staying with my husband after infidelity. And I’m grateful for his patience, because what we went through that fog is a classic trauma response where we are very wounded and can’t process things. He, Is there even if we can’t feel him.
Linda: And he’s so patient that the scripture, especially the Psalms and also Lamentations, helps me be at peace. I think with that time and to recognize that I would even say like God was okay with it. So I think he appreciated that I was coming to him with my raw honesty. I wasn’t holding back and pretending. You know, everything was fine when it wasn’t.
I screamed at him when I wanted to scream at him and was real. I think he wants our authentic selves. He knows we’re broken. He knows we’re ugly. And he just wants us to come to him as we are.
Anne: So either during this time or after this time, talk to me about the aha moments you experienced.
Linda: For me, one of the first and biggest aha moments was when I got to the place where I had to be okay with the idea of my marriage ending. I was a child of divorce, and I had vowed I would never, ever, ever get divorced. And I clung to that. God brought me to a place where I recognized that I had made my marriage an idol. I had put this, I won’t get divorced above God. I had decided almost that if God asked me to leave my marriage, I wouldn’t.
Conflicting Values & God’s Will
Linda: I would rather be staying with my husband after cheating than do what he asked me to do. So to get to a place where I said, okay, God, I’m going to follow you. I’m going to do what you want. Even if that means being a divorced person, which, you know, is this terrible thing in my mind.
Anne: This is where it gets really tricky. I think for women of faith, because there are these values in conflict. God’s will for us is to be in a safe spiritual situation, staying with him after infidelity. It’s not to be in this dangerous situation with someone who’s being duplicitous.
Linda: A passage that struck me really hard recently is that I’m not gonna remember the exact reference, but it’s in Malachi. And it’s the passage where God talks about how he hates divorce. He’s talking to the men of Israel. They’re asking why isn’t he accepting their worship?
And he says, because I saw the vows you made to your wives, and I see that you’re being unfaithful to them. And he says, you know, I hate divorce, but the message behind that is more than I hate divorce. I hate seeing my daughters abused. And he demands their faithfulness. He says, come back and be faithful to your wives.
Staying Emotionally Safe In Marriage After Infidelity
Anne: The reason why God made commandments was to keep people safe.
Anne: So it’s not just for your own, like, Oh, good. I’m gonna go to heaven.
Linda: It’s for our safety, yeah.
The Power Of Truth
Anne: So I read my scriptures every day. I found boundaries almost on every page while staying married after infidelity, as I did my scripture study in the morning. It was amazing. I’m really grateful for his guidance through the scriptures. And I think it’s sad, because so many women are so traumatized. That picking up their scriptures seems so overwhelming. It seems like there’s no way like, why would I do that? I’m not getting any answers. I’m out of God. God has abandoned me.
I’ve obeyed the commandments. And here I am in this awful situation. He hasn’t kept his promise. That power that can come from the scriptures during this difficult time is sometimes lost.
Linda: Absolutely.
Anne: You mentioned one of your aha moments was that you wanted to cover yourself in truth. What did that look like for you?
How The Truth Will Guide You After Infidelity
Linda: Before I talk about covering myself in truth. That was really terrifying to me, because I was still trying to live in the secrets, while staying married after he cheated. And so it was really scary, but because I wanted to find out what the Bible had to say about it. I wanted to find out what the Bible has to say about boundaries. If I wanted to find scripture about telling the truth.
So that became how I covered myself in truth, because I studied and studied, finding all these verses. And then those would be in my head. And so every day for months, just scripture going through my head repeatedly. It had massive effects on our life. I suddenly started seeing lies everywhere.
You know, someone would ask me a question and I’d give my normal. Oh, I’m fine answer. Trying to minimize my pain or pretend like I was okay. That wasn’t truth.
Staying Married After Infidelity: The Truth Shall Set You Free
Linda: I learned through that time of trying to stay after infidelity. To let everything that came out of my mouth, I mean, as much as possible. Because I’m still human, be saturated in truth and it changed everything.
Anne: And the truth shall set you free.
Linda: Absolutely.
Anne: There’s so much confidence that I gain knowing that this type of sin is wrong. And that I am doing God’s will to set a very firm boundary around it.
Linda: Yes.
Anne: I don’t know if I would have that firm confidence if I didn’t know it was coming straight from God. Especially because my particular church leaders weren’t supportive of what I was doing. Or they couldn’t understand it. And they thought I was not being faithful, it just gave me the confidence. That I needed to stand up to, I would say, just either my church culture or society or people who don’t understand this. And it brought me a lot of peace.
Linda: You know, I had talked earlier about making my marriage an idol. I believe that’s another thing I had made an idol of is the teachings of the church.
Instead of following just scripture, I had allowed man’s interpretation of that, right? To shape me and I became more dedicated to that than the word itself. And like you said, there are so many churches that don’t get it all right. Years and years and years probably centuries of tradition has gotten in the way of what the Bible actually says about it.
Anne: Sexual sin is old, right? It is the deepest sin we have as humans. And it is the most destructive.
Linda: Absolutely.
Getting Support While Staying together After Infidelity
Anne: Well, I guess aside from murder, it is so deep in our culture, and so ingrained in, “What it means to be a man.” And also “What it means to be a woman.” How we are supposed to interact. All those, we would say roles, not the relationship God wants us to have. And focus on a peaceful, loving relationship. And I think part of that is coming from centuries of sexual sin.
Linda: Yeah
Anne: So you talked about how you started speaking the truth while staying together after infidelity. So that’s one way that you dealt with your anger and feelings toward your husband. Talk about other ways you dealt with it.
Linda: For me, I had been so isolated for so long. This does kind of go along with the truth part of it. I Decided that I was going to kind of come out. I don’t know if that’s the right word, the right way to say it. You know, I wasn’t going to hide anymore.
I told our children about it. They’re preteens through teenagers. So old enough to understand. And our friends, I found others. I found Facebook groups and all kinds to come alongside me, people that I knew in real life and people that I virtually know. I just got help. The Bible talks about as iron sharpens iron being with other believers.
And I think that was important for me while remaining married after infidelity. Another way to get through it was just to get support for betrayal trauma. One of my life verses has become II Corinthians 1:3-4, which says all praise to God, the father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. God is our merciful father and the source of all comfort.
Comfort In Our Troubles Is Healing
Linda: He comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort others. When they are troubled, we can give them the same comfort God has given us. So I found that as I walked in obedience, God just started bringing women into my life. It somehow miraculously was healing for me.
Anne: My experience was similar. I was praying so much after my ex’s arrest, and he was given a 14 month probation with a no contact order from a judge. And I knew I needed a separation while. I needed space. And so as I prayed and said, God, should I file for divorce or should I amend the no contact order? Should I allow him to talk to me? I just kept getting this answer to be still, be still. One day I told my mom. Mom, I got an answer.
She was like, you did? That’s awesome. Which one is it? Cause I was only praying about these two things, right? Divorce or amend the no contact order. Those are the only two options. And his answer was to start a podcast. And so I told my mom, I’m supposed to start a podcast and she was like, okay.
Well, I started podcasting. And a few months after that, my husband at the time, he actually filed for divorce. And so I never had to make that decision.
Linda: Isn’t that just like God, I mean, to, to make it so you didn’t have to do it, you know?
Anne: Because I committed to my marriage vows and covenants, and knew I couldn’t break them. I had no desire to do that.
Either A or B, and God says C
Anne: And so I was just waiting on God to let me know what sort of man is he while I figured out what to do after infidelity. Not God, what sort of man is my husband, right? Is he a godly man who can make the changes and repent, or is he not? And I found out he wasn’t. I was heartbroken about it.
Linda: Of course, isn’t it so like us to limit ourselves to A and B? I did that so much too, we were going through and we say, Okay, I can do this or I can do this. And I’ve seen as I talk with other women. Well, it’s this or this, and I’m always thinking, or it’s C. You know, there’s a C, there’s a C, D, and E, actually. I feel like that’s a huge part of betrayal trauma, is that we get stuck in A and B. This is, these are my two choices, and there’s almost always, more choices.
Anne: Yeah, and I think God was waiting for me to be at the right place where he could show that other choice.
Linda: Right.
Anne: Now it’s opened up this amazing world for me. And you’ve experienced the same thing, where there are so many women out there who are going through this. And had we not been able to tell the truth, had we not told the truth, we would never have found each other.
There’s so much power in truth, maybe enough power to stop this exploitation epidemic that we call pornography. I don’t know how, I don’t know when, but I have to believe it’s possible.
God Has Power To Do Miracles
Linda: Absolutely. And with the God that we serve, shouldn’t we set crazy goals? I mean, he. He is the creator of heaven and earth. He holds everything together with his power. Why would we limit him to something that wasn’t crazy? You know?
Anne: That’s a good point. It is pretty crazy, and I think about like the parting of the Red Sea, right? I mean, it gets a little intense.
Linda: This is small compared to that.
Anne: Yeah, it seems bigger to me. For some reason, stopping exploitative material seems harder than parting the Red Sea.
Linda: And also, don’t you think we know that God, you know, created the world? So therefore he’s in control of nature.
Anne: Right.
Linda: So, parting the Red Sea, we’re comfortable with that falling within his realm of influence or whatever. But this this is the hearts of people.
Anne: Because so many women pray and pray, and pray and pray for their husband’s heart to change.
Linda: Right.
Anne: And it’s not happening.
Linda: So earlier I said we had this idyllic marriage, but I knew about the exploitative material. I didn’t know about the infidelity, but I knew about the it long before all this D-Day and all that.
And I prayed, and I prayed and I prayed. And even though I would have said our marriage was idyllic, there were signs that I ignored. I spent many, many, many years, crying out to God for my husband. That he would turn from that. And for a long, long, long time, I felt like there was no answer to my prayers. And it had to get really bad. It got to the point where he was repeatedly unfaithful in really, really horrible, horrible ways.
Emotional Abuse & Establishing Boundaries
Anne: For those of us whose husbands are not showing signs of change, then boundaries are our only option. In my case, I would love him to change. But I lost hope in him, while I have also increased my faith and hope in God. Which has been an interesting journey, letting go of that idol of marriage. Or letting go of that idol of my husband, and putting it in God. And God put me on this path. How do you know if your abusive husband is changing?
I want to talk for just a second about the emotional abuse that users frequently exhibit. So before you discovered about your husband’s addiction, you perceived it as the ideal marriage, with a few red flags that you discounted.
Linda: Right.
Anne: Now when you look back on his behaviors, do they look different now? Like, do they seem a lot worse than they did at the time?
Linda: Oh my goodness, yes. For all those years, he would tell me, I struggled with exploitative material, but I’ve quit. Every time he got caught, it was, okay, this is it. This is it. And I remember thinking, how will I ever know if it is real? Because it’s just a matter of time before I find it again, you know? Now I look back and see, like you said, abuse.
It was an abusive relationship before, and even though I didn’t feel like it was. I can see the manipulative ways they communicate and my husband lied about small things. And then all the, I don’t know what the right word is, but the tactics maybe. To deflect from those lies and keep us where they want us. It was downright abusive, everything was not peaceful at all.
After Infidelity: The Chaos Of An Abusive Relationship
Linda: Chaos, chaotic, he looked for conspiracies everywhere. It always felt like everyone was out to get him. And there was this, yeah, kind of craziness about him
Anne: I’m so interested in bringing this to light. So many people think their marriages are ideal. And then later, when they look back when they’re in recovery, realize, wow, no. It was an abusive situation. I was the same way I was being abused for seven years.
My husband was arrested for domestic violence. And at the time he was arrested, it took me like a few weeks to realize, wait a minute, he is really abusive. For about three weeks after, I thought, no, this is my wonderful, loving husband. It’s so hard to wrap your head around abuse. That’s one of the things I’m trying to help people understand. The correlations between this abuse. Because the world just thinks, oh this stuff, like it doesn’t hurt anyone or anything.
And if women know when he’s using, there’s always some element of abuse. It might be subtle, but I think it helps us have the confidence to set those boundaries that we need to set to be safe. And if you’re trying to figure out what type of character does my husband have, does he have this exploitative, deceptive character? It’s hard to know how to do that, which is what the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is about.
Linda: Right, definitely.
Anne: It helps women who are in that stage where they don’t know what to do. They don’t know where to turn. They don’t want a divorce. Like I didn’t want to, or you didn’t want to, and not all women who go through this get divorced.
Getting On The Path To Safety
Anne: And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe women can get to safety no matter what their situation is. And The Living Free Workshop helps women do that.
Linda, thank you so much for coming on today.
Linda: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me, it was awesome. And thank you also for what you do.
Is The Common Interpretation Of Biblical Submission In Marriage Wrong?
Sep 12, 2023
The term “Biblical submission” has long been considered an essential principle of a sanctified partnership. But more and more women describe that people use this term to perpetuate a pervasive type of abuse. That all too often goes unnoticed. Perhaps one can ask, is the term “biblical submission” synonymous with spiritual abuse?
Coach Sharon focuses on exposing incorrect thought patterns that lead to the weaponization of spiritual truths. Sharon, as a survivor of physical, emotional and spiritual abuse, is determined to support women to regain their voice. She wants to help them reframe their value, and maintain their spiritual footing. This is what makes her valuable to our community of women who know this pain. Coach Sharon shares a profound part of her personal story.
How Can I Know If Biblical Submission Is Being Used To Abuse Me?
Told or made to believe that the wife must submit to the husband, regardless of circumstances
Feel that your thoughts, opinion, voice does not matter
Told or made to feel that God wants you to forgive no matter what
Told or made to feel that God has control over your body, not you
Made to believe that you have no choice or decision-making role in your own relationship
Defining women’s role in non-compromising terms
Coach Sharon describes the scattered, confusing thinking that many victims feel when they experience this type of emotional and spiritual abuse. We understand that when spiritual beliefs collide with abuse, it can be messy, confusing and bewildering. Sometimes you can feel lost or hopeless. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are here for you, no matter what you believe or do not believe.
We have a strong, supportive, robust and vastly knowledgeable array of amazing coaches here for you—to help you sort through the chaos and find peace. Join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group today. We get it, we get you.
Transcript: Is The Common Interpretation Of Biblical Submission In Marriage Wrong?
Anne: I am so excited. Coach Sharon is on today’s episode. She is one of our betrayal trauma coaches here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. She’s passionate about exposing incorrect thought patterns. That lead to the weaponization of spiritual truths. I’m so excited to talk to her about that today.
As a survivor of physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse, Sharon is determined to support women. To reclaim their voice, reframe their value, and maintain their spiritual footing. As a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach, Sharon speaks the truth directly, yet compassionately. As she challenges arguments, opinions, and mindsets that seek to undermine a woman’s mental and spiritual health.
Welcome, Sharon.
Coach Sharon: Thank you, Anne.
Anne: Coach Sharon is, of course, one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches. She coaches several sessions of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group. So when you attend a group session, you can meet her and interact with her. You can also schedule an individual session with Coach Sharon by going to our website.
So Sharon, because you’ve been through this, can you talk about your experience? What did you think happened before you had the word abuse to describe your experience?
Coach Sharon: I thought we just had problems. I thought we had problems communicating like every other couple. And if we could just get the tools needed to communicate, that would set us straight. And that for whatever reason, we just kept missing each other.
Misunderstanding Abuse & Seeking Help from the Church
Anne: So what kinds of things did you do to try and not miss each other? You know, to get help for this?
Coach Sharon: We tried a variety of different things. We did the marriage counseling a couple of times, numerous times. But we relied more on pastoral care as a source of support.
Some people in our life within the church community offered support to us in terms of counseling. But that always seemed to shine back on me and my direction in terms of my responsibility to satisfy him. So that he would not fall into temptation or submit without question, no matter how it was affecting me.
So we have these help and professionals that were trying to support and help. But they were unaware of the varying forms of abuse. Because my husband didn’t assault me physically the whole time, the full length of our marriage. They did not see that I was actually in abuse. So I suffered a lot of harm, because the people in my life who offered support did not have a working knowledge of varying forms of abuse. And expected me to adhere to Biblical submission.
And I believe these people meant me good in terms of the support they were trying to offer. I think there was the desire to help, but there wasn’t the knowledge to speak to emotional, psychological and intimate abuse. Fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse.
Recognizing Emotional Abuse
Anne: My experience was that I was mildly assaulted three times in the seven years I was with my ex. And so I didn’t think that physical abuse was part of my story. He would punch a wall every once in a while. One time he ripped a fence apart with a pickaxe.
I mean, that sounds super violent. But for some reason at the time, I don’t know, it seemed too much. Like, he had an anger problem or something. I didn’t perceive it as physical abuse. I also didn’t perceive my relationship as physically abusive.
With your physical abuse, was it similar? Where it was just a few incidents, seemingly mild? Even though I realize that tearing a fence apart with a pickaxe isn’t mild now. But from your perspective, did you experience that same type of thing when it came to physical abuse?
https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I
Coach Sharon: No, not really. And mine was the exact opposite. So the first 15 years of my marriage were physically abusive. It was pushing, shoving, screaming, slapping. It was very, very physical. In terms of the abuse I was living in, I just saw him as angry. Sometimes things would escalate. I still didn’t see it as physical abuse, even though I was covering up scars with makeup and going to church with scarves around my neck, because, you know, there were scars and so forth there.
And I still just saw him as just angry. I didn’t see myself as abused, but then when he stopped hitting me. Because after 15 years, he stopped physically hitting me. And I thought he switched on emotional abuse, because I didn’t realize I was emotionally abused the whole time. This is a powerful truth to know about emotional abuse.
The Role Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Sharon: I knew about Biblical submission, I didn’t know anything about emotional abuse. So when the physical stuff stopped, it confused me because I’m like, he’s not hitting me anymore.
So why is it still dangerous? Why do I still feel like I’m in danger and he’s not hitting me? Because I did not understand what emotional abuse was. And I certainly didn’t know anything about coercion. None of that registered for me as abuse. So I thought, okay, well, he stopped hitting you, and you’re just, you’re still spiraling, but I couldn’t understand why.
Anne: So, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we actually do not specialize in physical abuse, right? We specialize in betrayal trauma from infidelity and coercion in the form of a husband’s pornography use. But I will say there is no physical abuse that happens without emotional and psychological abuse also being a component.
So if you have experienced physical abuse, you’re also always experiencing emotional and psychological abuse. So at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, if you’re like, “Hey, I need help. I’m going to reach out. I’m going to join the group.” We actually don’t process physical violence in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery groups.
We recommend you schedule a session with Coach Renee to actually access resources in your own location. Like perhaps the domestic violence shelter or perhaps the police. So that you can navigate that. Because sometimes reporting that is difficult. I just want to bring that up. So even though we’re talking about physical abuse right now, that’s actually not our specialty here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Is Biblical Submission Abusive?
Anne: So now we’re going to start talking about Sharon’s experience when physical abuse stopped. I’m going to talk a little about how I experienced emotional and psychological abuse, and how confusing that was.
When you got help from clergy and stuff during this time, did they also not recognize that as physical abuse? And during that time, did they also say, “Hey, you just need to be more patient, you need to be more loving, you need to submit more, and he’ll stop pushing you around.”
Coach Sharon: The clergy, the church community, told me that not submitting to him caused the emotional stuff. So if I would satisfy him, then that would cure him from falling into temptation. We wouldn’t fight so much. Well, if I would just submit, because submission was a big part of our faith. So I was serious about Biblical submission in terms of what I felt like a woman’s role was.
So anytime I would. challenge him. If I had a frowned upon difference of opinion, I had no voice. And that’s what I say. Like, even though there was physical abuse in my circumstance, I think the emotional abuse was harder to deal with. Because first of all, I didn’t recognize it, nor did anyone else.
Clergy did not recognize emotional abuse. So long as he didn’t hit me, I had no leg to stand on. So when we would get in counseling sessions and I was trying to explain what was happening, there was no way to explain it. Because it wasn’t a scar. It wasn’t a physical scar. It was something emotional that was happening, happening to me that I didn’t even understand.
What If I Am Abused By My Beliefs?
Coach Sharon: So I got advice like, you just need to satisfy him, and the marriage bed is undefiled. And you know, whatever happens in the marriage bed is okay. And I’m like, but this is not about intimacy. It was a lot of, well, you have to submit without question, Bibllical submission, without me having a voice, without asking what the arguments or disagreements were about.
Like there was smoke, but no one was looking for a fire. It was like she’s yelling and screaming, but no one asked those questions. What’s going on behind the scenes. That was, you know, contributing to our relationship being so chaotic.
And I didn’t have a lot of information that I have now. In terms of looking at things like gaslighting, coercive behaviors, and weaponization of scripture. I didn’t understand a lot of the things that Betrayal Trauma Recovery brought to light. So I did not know what was happening to me. So I couldn’t explain it. You can’t explain what you don’t know. I had no ability to have a voice, is what I knew Anne.
Biblical submission meant Chuck held all the cards with decision-making. So if I had, something that I wanted to do in terms of parenting. If there was a direction I wanted to take with the kids, or if I felt like something was wrong to do or right to do. I had no voice in that or finances. I had no voice in intimacy. Intimacy had to look a certain way. I had to kiss him in a certain way. Intimacy had to look a certain way or it was wrong.
Can Biblical Submission Be Emotional Abuse?
Coach Sharon: So there was no voice in terms of me being able to say in what the marriage was like, I had no value. I had no opinion. If I thought it was correct, it wasn’t respected. Because I wasn’t educated enough. He would say things to me, like, you can’t comprehend that. So I had no right to give opinion to anything, because I couldn’t comprehend anything.
I couldn’t contribute. Or at least my contributions weren’t supported. Because nothing I brought to the marriage relationship was significant. Therefore, it wasn’t acknowledged. So I wasn’t contributing anything. I had no resources, whatever I brought to the marriage, whether it was finances or whatever. It wasn’t enough to match comparable to him. You know, to what he was bringing in.
So there was no voice, there was no value, but I think perhaps the worst thing, I had no God. I think that’s the worst part of it for me, was that I had no God. Because God was always on his side. He always had scripture to prove that God was on his side. So if I was hurt about something and tried to relate to him, I’m harmed. Or I’m being hurt, or I don’t agree, then he would say things to me like, God wants you to forgive. So there was no way I could ever stand up for anything.
Because forgiveness was always that variable that always pulled me back into, I have to let it go. If I refused his advances, God said I had no authority over my body. If I had an opinion, then God said I had to obey in everything. He would say, touch not my anointed and do my prophet no harm. Obey because of Biblical submission is required.
The Turning Point & Doing What God Wanted
Coach Sharon: No harm was one of the scriptures he would continually say, but that made me feel like garbage because there was no ally. I had no ally, even in God. So even having this relationship with God, I felt like there’s no one who understands or can see what I’m going through.
Not only does the marriage counselor seem to side with him, but also clergy and pastoral care I was reaching out for. Not only do they see me as chaotic, crazy, and sinful, but even God is not there for me. it was just a very, very hard, hard time in my life in terms of feeling like I could be seen, and slowly I just started to fade.
Anne: And knowing you, my guess is, you can correct me if I’m wrong here. That the reason you started to fade is because even if God couldn’t see you, you felt like he couldn’t. You maybe didn’t have the words for that at the time.
You love God and wanted to do what God wanted you to do. And so this is a confusing thing, because you love God. You love Jesus. You love the Bible, and here all these things are being used against you. And this is spiritual abuse, but I’m guessing you did not recognize it as spiritual abuse at the time.
Coach Sharon: Not at all. I didn’t know that spiritual abuse was a thing. I had never heard of the weaponization of scripture until Betrayal Trauma Recovery. So anytime I heard a scripture, it seemed to validate what he was saying. Yes, the Bible says a woman must submit in everything, so how could I stand up for rights?
When Biblical Submission Crosses The Line Into Abuse
Coach Sharon: If he was the spiritual head, the Bible says that I had no idea that spiritual abuse even existed. So definitely it left me at a disadvantage to speak up for myself or keep myself safe, because what could I do? I can’t go against God. I would have been willing to stay in that abusive relationship forever if it meant I had to go against my faith. There was no way.
Anne: I want to make a point. We have agnostic listeners. We have atheist listeners. So neither of us is trying to proselytize. But we’re just trying to share our own experience. If you’re an atheist, for example, or you’re agnostic or something, we’d love to hear your story from your point of view and the tough times you had. Maybe from family or therapists or maybe secular places where you couldn’t get help. Everyone is welcome here.
Anne: So let’s talk about when you started realizing that this isn’t working. So you try this “Biblical submission.” You try to do all the things that this, I will call them abusive clergy, not that they understood they were being abusive. But they were sort of abusing you by proxy.
Your abuser manipulated them, so they took his side. When did you start to recognize, like, wait a minute, I have loved, I have served, I’m forgiving. I’m doing all the things. And Biblical submission isns’t working. Like our marriage isn’t getting any better. He’s told me, “Hey, you just need to forgive, and things would be okay.” But they’re not okay. When did you recognize that that typical Christian advice of love, serve and forgive was not working?
Coach Sharon: I mean, it was a long time after marriage. I mean, well into the marriage.
The Power Of Knowledge About Abuse
Coach Sharon: Definitely post Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because I didn’t understand any of this Biblical submission was used to abuse until I left. And after I left the relationship, a family member referred me to the podcast. I started listening to podcasts and started hearing some truths coming from Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And honestly, I honestly didn’t know at any point in the marriage that I was in an abusive relationship.
I did not until after I left, moved out and started listening to podcasts from Betrayal Trauma Recovery. That there were just really red flags everywhere and shining light on truths that I had never heard of. And it was amazing. It was traumatizing. It was overwhelming. To learn that this is it, finally, I had an answer to what was happening to me. But it was definitely after I had left the relationship and began to seek safety that I realized it wasn’t me.
Anne: Yeah, so many victims when they’re in that fog of abuse, plus they’re in the fog of clergy abuse. Where this whole vortex of people around you tells you, love, serve, and forgive. You can’t tell what’s going on. I’m so grateful that you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Sharon offline has told me that when she started listening to BTR, she thought I was crazy.
Many people have thought I was crazy. Some people think I’m too religious. Some people think I’m not religious enough. You know, I’m just trying to share my own experience and help others share theirs. So can you talk about that? Why did you think I was crazy when you started listening to the podcast?
Embracing New Truths About Submission
Coach Sharon: Because I had such a strong belief in Biblical submission. I thought when I initially listened to podcasts, what the message was to not submit. Like this rebellious kind of breakaway, set your boundaries, do whatever you want, type things. I was concerned that my faith would come into contact with conflict with the message.
And I did not want my faith to be in conflict with this new truth that I learned. You know, the word says my people perish for a lack of knowledge, and that’s one scripture that we always stand on. I didn’t realize there was knowledge out there that could help us keep safe. This might not necessarily come from the scripture, but could be backed in scripture. Like the books on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery website.
I started exposing myself to truths and learning, wow, they’re not saying we don’t follow Biblical truths. So I started looking at different forms of truth that you could find in a variety of different sources. And I realized that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was not advocating against religion, God or faith. It was trying to put women in a place where they could be empowered to see truth. And do with that truth, whatever they wanted to do.
So I saw that the message Betrayal Trauma Recovery offered was one that I could embrace as truth for my life. But did not put me in conflict with my faith. I could have both. I could have this truth to keep me safe, and I could have my faith.
Anne: I think that’s really interesting.
Balancing Faith & Truth
Anne: Many times the way we have other people interpret scriptures for us, like a bunch of men. They’re saying, this is what the scripture means, or, you know, our abusive husband. And he’s saying, this is what the scripture means. And the cool part is that we can take a step back, pray, study our scriptures, read other books and get other experience. We can actually have a relationship with God that enables us to interpret and read scripture in the way He thinks is best for us.
And I want to empower women to be able to do that, to take a step back and say, is this what God is saying? Or is he just using the scripture as a weapon to keep me oppressed? I think it really comes down to, do we really think God hates us? Because essentially, that’s what we would say, that God wants us to be mistreated. Or that God wants us to completely sacrifice our identity, our needs. And I just can’t believe that about God. Like I think God loves me.
So you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, you realize maybe I’m not crazy or maybe I’m still crazy. But that you’re like, wow, she might be crazy, but I can still learn from this. I’m gonna start educating yourself about abuse, both through the podcast and you also began doing BTR services. Can you talk about how the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group helped you?
Coach Sharon: Group was so helpful to me, because I could hear my own story. I started listening to stories and hearing stories that I could connect with. I started identifying myself in the stories.
Empowerment Through Understanding Abuse
Coach Sharon: For once, I could make connections to circumstances and experiences in my life. Things I had lived through that other women had lived through. And it was so liberating to know that this is not just your experience, but also that there are other women who can understand and identify with the same type. You know, I could hear the stories and heartache and women that had been bamboozled with scripture, not knowing that there were other scriptures that were there to support them.
I mean, just like you said, sometimes all those scriptures were being used about Biblical submission. There were counter scriptures that were never talked about. And in group and in private sessions, private coaching a lot of those truths came to the surface. And allowed me to challenge just that one sided view of marriage that I was used to living in. So it was just so freeing between the podcast and the coaching sessions in the groups.
It really helped me to reframe my life in a bigger way. You know, to see myself as a person in a bigger way, and to see my marriage for what it really was. It just really brought a lot of validation. God does love you. And there are scriptures there that will support that God loves you. And it’s okay to set boundaries. It’s a way to keep yourself safe. And it just brought a whole new freedom in terms of me being able to say, no, this is what I’m going to choose for my life.
The Importance Of A Community Of Truth
Coach Sharon: And it made me passionate about bringing that truth to other women, because I knew right away. Once I learned all these principles with Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I wanted to bring it to everyone. I didn’t want another woman out there ever hit with the Bible and Biblical submission. And I wanted them to know that you are loved, cared for, and have a God that loves you. And he does not require you to be harmed or hit to prove that you love him.
Carrying a cross does not mean you have to be abused. That’s not what that scripture meant. And BTR gave me the freedom to stand upon that truth. And say, no, I want to carry this message to whatever woman will listen. But not only to challenge health professionals and people in a position to bring help to women. To say, “Hey, open up your eyes and look at all forms of abuse,” because helping professionals can help women if they have proper knowledge. I got all that from Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Anne: I think it’s so crazy that we can metaphorically scream and yell for help. I did it for seven years. You did it for 20 where we’re like, help, help. We’re willing to read our scriptures, pray, go to therapy. And we’re willing to do whatever we need to do. We’re willing to have sex when we don’t want to have sex. We’re willing to, you know, anything. And we can’t get the right information.
We’re searching, searching, searching, praying, praying, and still not getting the right information. Which is why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. So I’m so grateful that you found us and I’m grateful that you’re here.
The Nightmare Of Abuse Figuring Out that Biblical Submission Is Used To Opress
Anne: When you think back in that time, let’s just say in the fog of abuse, what do you think about it now? Like looking back, doesn’t it seem like a nightmare or a bad dream or something? What are your thoughts about it?
Coach Sharon: It really was, it was a nightmare. Yeah, it was just sad. I mean, when I think about the years I wasted trying to go back in my mind, to make things fit. To make sense of Biblical submission. And there was no way for me to make it make sense. When I look at it now, it’s so sad. I feel sad for myself in terms of the condemnation I lived under. I mean, I think I was suicidal because I couldn’t please Jesus.
Like I literally felt like it would be better to die, because I can’t get this right, you know? And it was like, he would say things to me like, “You shouldn’t pray. If you’re going to leave the room, don’t even bother to pray.”
And I would feel like I’m so failing this. I’m never going to be redeemed, you know? So looking back, it’s just, it’s crazy. I just can’t even believe it was my reality. And now to think it could be someone else’s breaks my heart. It just breaks my heart that this is possible.
Anne: It is absolutely heartbreaking. That’s exactly why I started podcasting. I did not want one other woman to go through this. And all the coaches here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery feel the same way, having walked this road ourselves. We were called to support other women and warn other women about this type of abuse.
Finding Peace & Purpose In The Truth
Anne: So you’re helping other women sort this reality out about scripture and what Biblical submission means. You’re such an important part of the team, and we’re so grateful for you on the team. We have such a strong team of amazing coaches. But personally, where are you now that you know the truth and can stand in the truth?
Coach Sharon: Knowing the truth is taking in the truth, and I’m constantly taking in truth. I allow myself to be exposed to voices that validate me. Whether through affiliations with fellow coaches or the work we do exposes you to so much truth, it gives you options. So for me, just taking in truth, growing as a person, which is a daily challenge. Still healing, because I’m still healing through memories and things that have impacted my life in just an amazing way.
I feel like I don’t know if I’ll ever truly be over it, but definitely moving in the right direction in terms of just embracing my own truth. Even in scripture and embracing truth as I see it, interpreting scripture as I see it. And allowing myself to evolve, and trust the truth on the inside of me.
The light on the inside of me, and not allowing someone else to dictate to me what that light is supposed to look like. So, just growing, growing and expanding. Learning new things and taking on new opportunities. While at the same time finding purpose, meaning, and helping other women.
The Journey of Healing From Harm Due To Biblical Submission
Coach Sharon: Just by being able to walk with another woman, see her, and validate her. To speak to those helping professionals, whether they be therapists or the church community, to just say accurate information, please. Because there’s a scripture Anne, it’s Proverbs 19:2. It says desire without knowledge is not good. How much more will hasty feet miss the way?
And if we can have a desire to help, but if we don’t have knowledge, it’s no good. I know they want to help. But in having that desire, you have to have knowledge from people like Betrayal Trauma Recovery. The BTR community, and those skilled in the area of abuse, to say, not just theology, not just the Bible or Biblical submission. We have to look at abuse if there’s smoke, looking for that fire.
Anne: And the whole team at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the podcast team, me, all the coaches have all been through this. And I like to think the Betrayal Trauma Recovery team is a few steps ahead of the average woman still in the fog. And the other cool thing is because we’re learning this as a community. If one of us has an epiphany, we all have an epiphany. And we’re all working toward being healthy. We’re all working toward peace.
And I can say that I feel so much more peaceful six years later. And you’re feeling more peaceful, there are some things we haven’t quite figured out. There are some things currently that I’m really pondering and praying about. And getting help and researching. I’ve talked about some of those things on the podcast, but there’s some stuff rattling around my head that when I can wrap my head around it more, I’ll be able to share that.
The Role Of BTR Coaches In Supporting Women
Anne: But all of us are doing that. And that’s why I love having Sheros on the podcast, because they say things that are really aha moments for me. That helped me in my healing. So we’re all bringing each other up through this community. And it’s an amazing place to be.
So now that you are out of the fog and have made your way through years and years of struggle out of this. And now that you’re a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach. When a new woman comes to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, and you meet her for the first time. There are so many things that we could teach her or support her with. But what do you think your role is in her healing as a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach?
Coach Sharon: The first thing is to just see her, to hear her, to let her know that whatever it is she’s feeling or seeing is real. That she’s not at fault, that someone cares about her, that her story is important, that her well-being matters. And that it is okay to get herself to safety. And that means creating boundaries, putting boundaries in place that will keep her safe, and that’s okay to do.
Anne: That’s our goal. So when people ask, what is Betrayal Trauma Recovery? You know, are they pro divorce, do they hate men? Whatever they say. Are they too religious? Are they not religious enough? The only thing we care about is safety. We all have these different experiences. We all come to it from our own experience. But overall, our message at BTR is safety first.
Trusting Women To Make Decisions About Biblical Submission And Safety
Anne: And that a woman is the number one source of knowledge about her own safety once she has been educated. Once she knows what abuse is. Once she understands boundaries. We can trust women to make the right decisions for themselves. Once they’ve been educated about what abuse is. And whether or not they recognize Biblical submission.
And I love all the women in the community. They might be making different choices, but they’re making these choices. Number one with a strong foundation of an education about abuse. Then secondly, with support, with someone there holding their hand, telling them we trust you. That you’re amazing, you’re brave, you’re strong, you can do this, and you can make your way to safety. And make your life a life of peace. I love it here for that reason.
Coach Sharon: I feel the same way, Anne.
Anne: You can schedule an individual session with Coach Sharon by going to btr.org. Coach Sharon also coaches several of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions, as do all of our coaches. So Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group will give you the opportunity to attend a session facilitated by her and meet her. She’s amazing. And I’m so grateful to know her and that she’s on our amazing team
Here’s The Best Songs About Healing From Trauma
Sep 05, 2023
If you’ve experienced your husband’s lies, infidelity, manipulation or any other type of abuse, here are the best songs about healing from trauma.
To discover if you’ve experienced any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Because music has a unique way to help us process emotions, find strength, and heal. So if you’re navigating trauma from your husband’s betrayal, lies, and infidelity, these 71 songs will empower you on your healing journey.
1. She Used To Be Mine by Sara Bareilles
A heartfelt ballad that beautifully captures the pain of losing yourself. Secondly, the strength to rediscover who you are.
2. Try by Colbie Caillat
This song reminds you to focus on inner beauty and self-worth. Because others manipulation is intended to exploit you. This song will help you do what’s right for you.
3. mad woman by Taylor Swift
Of course, reveals the anger and frustration systemic misogyny causes.
4. Who Says by Selena Gomez & the Scene
Above all, a reminder that you’re amazing just as you are.
5. Girl Can’t Be Herself by Alicia Keys
Consequently, this anthem of authenticity urges you to celebrate your identity in a world full of expectations.
6. Surface Pressure by Jessica Darrow
Feeling overwhelmed? This song from Encanto commiserates while reinforcing your strength.
7. Just Be Held by Casting Crowns
Altogether a powerful reminder to lean into your faith and trust the process of healing, even through dark times.
8. Rescue by Lauren Daigle
For when you feel hopeless, this song promises that you are never too lost to be found or supported.
9. U Matterby Bonner Family (feat. Aaliyah Rose, Yahosh & Daysha)
Above all a heartfelt reassurance that you are valued and loved, no matter what.
10. Never Alone by Lauren Daigle
Overall an uplifting song that assures you there’s always someone with you, walking alongside you in your struggles.
11. Walk Me Home by P!nk
For the moments when you feel lost, this song offers a comforting push to keep going.
12. Come Alive (Dry Bones) by Lauren Daigle
Also a motivational anthem encouraging you to rise and rebuild after facing destruction.
13. Million Reasons (Andrelli Remix) by Lady Gaga
A beautifully raw track about searching for hope and purpose when everything feels impossible.
14. With or Without You by Boyce Avenue & Manuel Costa
This poignant cover brings depth and clarity to themes of letting go and moving forward. Songs about healing from trauma motivate us.
15. Sit Still, Look Pretty by Daya
A bold reminder that you are more than an exploiters expectations—you’re strong and capable of building your own future.
16. Quiet by MILCK
An empowering song about finding your voice during hardship, and refusing to stay silent about your pain.
17. Ain’t Your Mama by Jennifer Lopez
This sassy anthem serves as a wake-up call that he’s a full grown man and capable of doing basic tasks.
18. What About Us by P!nk
In essence a raw exploration of broken trust and the resilience it takes to stand back up after betrayal trauma.
19. I Never by Jessica Simpson
Exploring the pain after betrayal, this track leans into themes of regret, growth, and healing.
Songs About Healing From Trauma 20-39
20. Not Ready to Make Nice by The Chicks
For those moments when you’re not ready to forgive, good for you.
21. Breadwinner by Kacey Musgraves
Outlines exactly what happened when he targeted you for exploitation.
22. My Own Hero by Andy Grammer
This anthem will help you be your own hero. Because songs about healing from trauma encourage us.
23. Superheroes by The Script
An ode to all who’ve fought battles unseen, this song is an inspiring reminder that your struggles have shaped you into a strong and capable woman.
24. Sister Suffragette by Mary Poppins Cast
Above all this classic from Mary Poppins celebrates women breaking barriers—a reminder of the systemic, historic misogyny we’re all standing against.
25. This Is Me by Keala Settle & The Greatest Showman Ensemble
An unapologetic anthem for self-acceptance, this track encourages you to own your scars and march forward bravely. Healing from trauma often involves accepting and reclaiming who you are.
26. Let It Go (Bearson Remix) by Bearson
Summarizes the futility of trying to work with an emotionally abusive man.
27. If You’re Over Me (Key Remix) by Years & Years
This upbeat remix tackles moving on from the trauma caused by his abuse. So it’s a perfect track to dance through the healing process and regain your clarity. Songs about healing from trauma lift us.
28. Say Something by Pentatonix
Hauntingly beautiful, this song captures the heartache of losing love. Because sometimes, healing starts with acknowledging the hurt and letting yourself feel.
29. Say Something (Zac Samuel Remix) by Karen Harding
This remix switches gears, turning vulnerability into a more energizing track. As a result, it’s a reminder that healing from hurt doesn’t mean staying in darkness forever.
30. Ugly Heart by G.R.L
This tune encourages you to stand tall after dealing with someone who didn’t treat you right. It’s a reminder that what really counts is someone’s actions – not their words or their image.
31. Elastic Heart by Sia feat. The Weeknd & Diplo
Sia’s raw voice and poignant lyrics bring life to the resilience we hold within ourselves. This is the perfect anthem for women rebuilding after the trauma of her husband’s emotional abuse and infidelity.
32. IDGAF by Dua Lipa
Make no mistake—this confident bop is about setting boundaries and taking no nonsense. It’s liberating, especially if you’re overcoming patterns of emotional manipulation.
33. Irreplaceable by Beyoncé
“To the left, to the left…” It’s easy to find another exploitative, abusive man. As Beyoncé describes so perfectly in this song.
34. Praying (Oliver Nelson Remix) by Kesha
This remixed track keeps the deep emotional power of Kesha’s original song while adding dance beats to move that trauma out of your body.
35. We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together by Taylor Swift
A lighthearted, catchy classic for anyone leaving a toxic cycle behind. Sometimes cutting ties is the first step to reclaiming your happiness.
36. See You When You’re 40 by Dido
This reflective tune is a great way to process the fact that some men will never get it.
37. Into the Unknown by Idina Menzel & AURORA
With adventurous melodies, this song captures the boldness it takes to step into uncharted territory and begin your next chapter of growth.
38. Castles (Sam Feldt Remix) by Freya Ridings
This remix turns Freya’s ballad of trauma recovery into a dance song. It’s about rebuilding yourself piece by piece—and celebrating the process.
39. Fight Song by Rachel Platten
An undeniably iconic anthem for overcoming adversity, this song helps reignite your inner fire and reminds you of your strength.
Songs About Healing From Trauma 40-59
40. Actually Happy by BLU EYES
This fresh, candid tune helps you reflect on how it feels to reach a place of true contentment after hardship—real and raw.
41. The Man by Taylor Swift
This bold and witty song challenges societal misogyny. It’s a great track for any women stepping into her power unapologetically.
42. Run the World (Girls) by Beyoncé
Beyoncé’s fierce anthem is a celebration of female empowerment and resilience. Perfect for reminding you that you’re unstoppable.
43. Born for This by Andy Grammer
This inspiring song motivates you to push through difficult times and remember you’re meant for greatness. Perfect for your revenge montage:).
44. Show Yourself by Idina Menzel & Evan Rachel Wood
Healing means stepping into your authenticity. This gentle ballad encourages self-exploration and acceptance.
45. Waiting On a Miracle by Stephanie Beatriz
This heartfelt track from Encanto captures the feeling of waiting for change and validation. It speaks to anyone who’s praying for a miracle, but feels unseen.
46. 9 to 5 by Dolly Parton
This classic celebrates women who’ve been exploited and victimized by men. One of the best songs about healing from trauma in the workplace.
47. Short Skirt/Long Jacket by CAKE
Quirky and empowering, this song outlines the way a healthy man would view an awesome, responsible woman.
48. That’s My Girl by Fifth Harmony
A powerful, uplifting track that reassures you that you’ve got this. It’s all about resilience and cheering yourself on, wherever you are in your healing process.
49. Me Tooby Meghan Trainor
In a nutshell: whoever you are, the best person to be is YOU.
50. Bad Reputationby Joan Jett
Joan Jett’s unapologetic classic is about refusing to care what others think of you. It’s a great reminder to keep moving forward, even if others don’t understand your choices.
51. Rebel Girl by Bikini Kill
This fierce feminist anthem celebrates woman empowerment, community, and inner strength. It’s perfect for finding strength and community.
52. You Gotta Beby Des’ree
This soulful track highlights how ridiculous society’s expectations of women are. Ironically, you’re already all these things.
53. Raising Hell by Kesha feat. Big Freedia
A high-energy anthem that’s all about rejecting spiritual abuse.
54. She’d Say by Andy Grammer feat. Ladysmith Black Mambazo
A reminder to hold on to the wisdom of women who have come before you.
55. Invincible by Kelly Clarkson
Kelly Clarkson delivers power and inspiration in this song, celebrating overcoming pain and trauma. A classic song about healing from trauma.
56. Scars to Your Beautifulby Alessia Cara
An emotional pop song that challenges societal beauty standards. So it’ll encourage you to embrace self-love and find beauty in being you.
57. Unpretty by TLC
This iconic track is about confronting insecurities and rejecting external pressures to look or act in a certain way. In fact a deeply impactful anthem for self-acceptance.
58. Most Girls by Hailee Steinfeld
Hailee delivers a message of unity and empowerment for women. Also it reinforces the idea that every woman’s path to healing and strength is valid.
59.What Else Can I Do by Diane Guerrero & Stephanie Beatriz
This upbeat track from Encanto reminds you to celebrate your talents and strengths. Additionally its hopeful message resonates with anyone looking to explore their potential.
Songs About Healing From Trauma 60-71
60. Love Myself by Andy Grammer
This uplifting tune focuses on prioritizing self-love and recognizing your own value. So it’s a great anthem for days you need a little encouragement.
61. I Belong to Me by Jessica Simpson
A gentle yet powerful reminder about self-belief and independence after difficulty or loss.
62. No Man Is Big Enough for My Arms by Ibeyi
This song draws from powerful historical speeches to inspire women to feel confident.
63. Bruises by Train feat. Ashley Monroe
A tender track about opening up about emotional scars to safe people.
64. All of You by Stephanie Beatriz, Olga Meredi, Encanto Cast
A beautiful song with uplifting lyrics lets you know you’re not alone. You have a community of women who know exactly what you’re going through.
65. Better Boat by Kenny Chesney feat. Mindy Smith
Also a song about learning and growing through life’s challenges, offering hope and encouragement for better moments ahead.
66. When I Get Where I’m Going by Brad Paisley feat. Dolly Parton
Since this heartfelt country track offers solace to anyone navigating trauma, it focuses on peace and hope for the future.
67. Best Is Yet To Come by Sheppard
A bright and optimistic track that reminds you there’s so much good waiting ahead.
68. Brighter Days by Emeli Sandé
This soulful song is one of the best songs about healing from trauma. Because it reminds us that even the hardest moments pass, and healing brings brighter days into focus.
69. Sorry Not Sorry by Demi Lovato
Bold lyrics and powerful delivery remind you that setting boundaries and focusing on your own success is the best form of revenge.
70. I’d Rather Be Me by Auli’i Cravalho, Cast of Mean Girls
A great reminder to prioritize your well-being.
71. The Hardest Part by Olivia Dean
Olivia Dean’s heartfelt voice captures the pain of letting go and the courage it takes to move forward. So this track helps you find hope in moments of emotional struggle.
Bonus Track. Like Everyone She Knows by James Taylor
With its tender and poetic lyrics, this song serves as a gentle reminder of the beauty in vulnerability. Additionally it’s a comforting piece that lets you reflect, feel deeply, and heal at your own pace.
Healing Trauma Through Music
The stories told in these songs may or may not mirror your story. So take what you like and leave the rest. Healing from trauma means doing what’s right for YOU. Think a track fits this list I missed? Then comment below to share your recommendations!
Transcript: 71 Of The Best Songs About Healing From Trauma
Anne: It’s just me today. So I’m excited to share the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Music Playlist with you. Although this is my personal playlist. It’s 71 of the best songs about healing from trauma. I’ve made it available on Apple Music, Spotify and YouTube. So the links are above, just click on the link and go directly to the playlist in your favorite music app.
Another way to get the links is to go to my website scroll to the bottom. There’s a form called join our community. Enter your email, and you’ll receive a link to this playlist. Eventually, it’s not the first email that goes out, but you can keep an eye out for it. So that’s another way to get this playlist.
I wanted to take you through why I chose some of these songs and the order. So it starts with us, trying to be the person he wants us to be. We’re trying to be that person that society wants us to be. And then it moves into like, are we even loved? Does God love us? Then it moves into, he is abusive and then anger stage. And then near the end of the playlist, there’re songs that are sort of accepting the situation. Music can be the best support for betrayal trauma.
So that’s the general feeling of the playlist. It is a long playlist. There’s like 40 hours of music, maybe, and so just take what you like and get rid of the rest. Only hold on to the songs that you enjoy.
Personal Music Preferences
Anne: So I interpret these songs my own way, with my experience, my viewpoint, and where I’m coming from. And so if any of these songs are offensive to anyone, I sincerely apologize. That was not my intent. And if that is the case, please skip over it. I would appreciate your grace. It’s not intended to offend anyone. I’m offering it as like a gift of love. So I appreciate your patience. I found listening to songs about healing from trauma really helped me.
Even If you’re like, this song is dumb. I’m kind of embarrassed, because I don’t know if all of you like dance music. I tend to gravitate more toward the sort of techno version of things. Because I like dancing, walking, and moving. It can be vital to find your voice after emotional abuse. I really love exercise. So, let me take you through why I chose some of these songs and why I put them in the order I did. So at almost the top of the playlist is a song called mad woman by Taylor Swift. I’m going to share some of the lyrics.
Songs For Different Emotions
Anne: So the chorus goes, “Every time you call me crazy, I get more crazy. What about that? And when you say I seem angry, I get more angry. There’s nothing like a mad woman. What a shame she went mad. No one likes a mad woman. You made her like that, and you poke that bear till her claws come out and you’ll find something to wrap your noose around.”
Basically, he’s trying to make her seem crazy, so people can say, yeah, she is crazy. See? That one’s good. Listening to songs about healing from trauma help us feel connected to others.
Rescue by Lauren Daigle is good when you’re feeling super sad and feel like you’re all alone. And if you’re a person of faith, that’s like, no one’s coming for you. So if you’re not a person of faith, if you’re agnostic or something, I want you to imagine that the universe or karma or something is coming.
Lauren Daigle’s song, Come Alive is the same. Lady Gaga’s song is called Million Reasons, and this one is fascinating. Because this one is, like, why we stayed so long. It’s like I have a million reasons to leave or set boundaries, but then you give me one good reason, and in this case it’s grooming. So you can see it both ways, like there’s one good reason to stay, that one’s something to think about.
An awesome cover of With or Without You, which I think is how we all felt at one point, right? You can’t live with them, but you can’t live without them, so what are we going to do?
Songs About Healing From Trauma: Empowering & Motivational Tracks
Anne: A song by Milck called Quiet really speaks to me. She’s like, I can’t stay quiet anymore. And I’m not sure if you’ve seen the Netflix show Moxie. But if you haven’t, watch Moxie, like, right now on Netflix. It is excellent, talking about misogyny. Besides I included some Encanto songs, Waiting on a Miracle and Surface Pressure. Waiting on a Miracle specifically speaks to me. Isn’t that what we’ve all been waiting for, right? Listening to songs about healing from trauma gives us hope.
Given that we’re praying, we’re waiting, we’re hoping. The lyrics at the end of that song say, I’m ready. Come on, I’m ready. Because I’ve been patient, steadfast and steady. Bless me now, as you blessed us all those years ago when you gave us a miracle. Am I too late for a miracle? I included the song Sister Suffragette from Mary Poppins. The Let It Go Bearson remix I listened to this song on repeat after my ex was arrested, and just trying to let it go.
And it helped me. It would be better if it was sung by a woman, obviously. And so think about that as you’re listening to this playlist. If it’s triggering for you to hear a man, sing it, then maybe skip it. The song, Say Something, I put that Pentatonics version on here.
It speaks to me, because after my ex’s arrest. I heard nothing. Like he didn’t try to resolve anything. He didn’t try to apologize. Thank goodness he did not groom, because I would have fallen for it for sure. I did not want to get divorced back then. So I felt like, say something, do something. Don’t you want to save your family?
Songs For Moving On
Anne:IDGAF, I did the clean version. That is a Dua Lipa song, and it’s just got a fun chorus. I love this section that says, “So I cut you off.”
Everybody loves the Kesha song Praying. I highly recommend it. I put the Oliver Nelson remix on here, so it’s a little peppier and a little more dancey. Upbeat songs about healing from trauma help lift us up. Taylor Swift’s We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together.
Dido’s See You When You’re 40 is good as well. My favorite section of See You When You’re 40, she says. “So see you when you’re 40, lost and all alone, being comforted by strangers you’ll never need to know. Not sad because you lost me, but sad because you thought it was cool to be sad. You think misery will make you stand apart from the crowd? Well, if you had walked past me today, I wouldn’t have picked you out.”
Similarly Castles!, the Sam Feld remix by Freida Writings is about how after a breakup, she will build castles out of the rubble of what happened. Obviously good for motivating you.
Also Breadwinner by Kacey Musgraves always helps me feel like I did the right thing in moving forward. Actually Happy by Blue Eyes. It’s a way to describe maybe how you’re feeling happy in a situation that maybe you shouldn’t be feeling happy.
Songs For Self-Reflection
Anne: Lastly, this is toward the end of the playlist, where the songs turn to creating the life you want. There’s Show Yourself from Frozen, I put Short Skirt / Long Jacket in by Cake. I love this song. I love what it’s describing. So he’s got a crush on her, and she is just hardcore. She’s changing her name from Kitty to Karen, like she wants to be a Karen. Also she wants to like, say, hey, this is what’s going on. It is helpful to listen to songs about healing from trauma.
Because this is what needs to happen. She’s not like, Oh, you don’t want me to make plans. Also you don’t want me to be detail oriented. You know, like I am changing my name from Kitty to Karen. Additionally I’m trading my MG for a white Chrysler LeBaron trading in her sports car for a practical car.
I love the idea of he likes her. Because she is no nonsense. So, if you’re thinking, if I’m no nonsense, you know, no one will ever love me or appreciate me. Then listen to that song. It’ll help you. Me Too is super fun by Meghan Trainor. So it says, If I were you, I’d wanna be me too. And I don’t think she’s saying, If I were you, I’d wanna be Meghan Trainor.
I think she’s saying, If I were you, I’d wanna be myself. Obviously, all of us should wanna be ourselves. I put some kind of old school stuff in there, like Bad Reputation and Rebel Girl by Bikini Kill. Rebel Girl by Bikini Kill is in the movie Moxie. Lastly, at the end, there’s a song from Encanto called All of You. Then there’s a section that always makes me want to cry.
Songs About Healing From Trauma: Getting Help
Anne: I’m not sure if you’ve seen Encanto, but at the end, a bunch of people come to help them. So all the people are coming and they say, Lay down your load. Lay down your load. We are only down the road. We have no gifts, but we are many, and we’ll do anything for you. That part of that song, All of You, always hits home. Listening to songs about healing from trauma helps.
It still makes me cry and tear up, because there are people out there who want to help you. You can lay down your load. They are only down the road, and they might not have much to give, but they are many, and they’ll do anything for you. I know you might not know who they are right now, but there are people who love you and care about you.
Better Boat by Kenny Chesney, and When I Get Where I’m Going by Brad Paisley and Dolly Parton. I don’t know if you’ll like this playlist. I have found music to be so, so, so healing. Moving has been helpful to me. Listening to music and moving my body. Getting out, going for walks, trying to move that trauma out through different means than just speaking, but actually stretching and shaking.
And there’s another song, it’s also by Kesha. It’s called Raising Hell, and it’s super good. It’s about wanting to do the right thing, but maybe in a way that people don’t approve of. And we know that some people setting boundaries and trying to get to safety is not something that many people approve. We’re making our way to safety.
So Many Songs Objectify Women
Anne: And another one is called The Best Is Yet to Come by Sheppard. I had a cool moment with my son. I was playing a song and it had this misogynistic theme, but I liked it.
And I said, “Oh, you got to hear the song. It’s so good.”
Then he said, “Mom, this song is terrible. It is objectifying women. Because It treats women like objects. Like, why are you listening to it?”
And I said, no, “That’s not what it’s about. In this case, it’s about this other thing.”
And he said, “Mom, it’s a metaphor. It might be about that other thing, but the thing it’s trying to teach is misogyny, Mom. This is not okay, and it’s unacceptable.”
I’m so proud of my son. I’m proud of men who recognize this kind of thing, and I’m grateful that he can recognize it and call me out on it. There are so many songs like that that have objectified women throughout the ages. We should listen to songs about healing from trauma.
The only thing he’s talking about is how beautiful she is, right? Or how in love he is, but not about her traits. That’s another reason I added that Short Skirt / Long Jacket song by Cake. I am 44 years old. I am not a teenager. So if you’re like, why is she into all these teeny bopper songs? I love pop music. Please forgive me if you think that’s lame.
Encouraging Comments & Feedback
Anne: In the event that there’s a song that has helped you, please scroll down to the bottom, and comment. Please comment about the songs about healing from trauma that have helped you. If a song does not help you, you could also comment there. Kindly please say, hey, I’m glad Anne found this song helpful. However, I do not find it helpful because of this, this, and this. And maybe you can point out some things about it that are helpful or great.
Maybe people would like to hear some commentary. It would be fun to have some comments going back and forth. So again, if you’re interested in getting this playlist, click on one of the links above. If enough people click on that and listen to it, they may make it public right now.
It’s not public. You have to get it with a link, but hopefully eventually it will be public. If people search for the words, betrayal, trauma, or infidelity or something, this list will come up. They won’t only find the playlist, which was helpful for me. And it could be helpful for other people. They’ll not only find the playlist, but also find this podcast and find us.
Thank you so much for all your support through the years. I’ve recognized lately how happy I am and how different I feel than I have felt in the past. And I’m grateful to be in this space. I’m so grateful to feel like, wow, my life turned out amazing. And I’m so thankful for all that I went through. I’m grateful for my kids and my job. I never would have had the opportunity had I not been married to an abuser, been through that experience.
Songs About Healing From Trauma: Living Free Strategies & Support
Anne: Also the experience of post separation, post divorce abuse. Sharing children with that same abuser and not able to get away. The strategies I learned that I later put in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop absolutely changed my life. And enabled me to live the free, peaceful life that I live now. So many things have changed. for me. There is hope for you.
In fact, there’s light at the end of the tunnel with the Living Free strategies, and with support from our coaches in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions or Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions, you can get there. And one day you might look out the window like I did, and be, wow, color. The sky is blue and the trees are green. I didn’t realize that I lived in this muted world before.
The reason why I put all the instructions on every episode, some of you have been like, there’s too many instructions about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions and stuff is because some people only listen to one episode. They don’t listen to a bunch of them. And so they only hear that once.
Help Is Available
Anne: Because I want them to know that we have support available. We love you. We care. So we made the most accessible group sessions in the world. There are multiple sessions a day. Additionally our coaches are well trained, amazing, and ready to help you. It wasn’t because I wanted to annoy everyone to death. It was because I wanted to make sure that everybody knew the resources that we have available.
Both on our website and on Amazon with my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama, all the resources available. So I appreciate those who listen to episode after episode, and you find it redundant. I appreciate you being patient with that for women who are new or women who only listen to one episode.
In fact, you’re amazing. I’m so honored to spend this time with you, to continue to interview you, and listen to your stories. Talking today about songs about healing from trauma. And think back about when I felt that pain, and also so grateful not to feel it anymore. It’s a miracle. And that miracle is waiting for you too.
I Want To Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband – Karen’s Story
Aug 29, 2023
Have you ever asked, “Is it wrong if I want to leave my emotionally abusive husband?” Here are some things to consider.
1. What would you tell someone else if they asked?
Pretend like you’re having a conversation with someone else. Listen to your own story as if you’re someone else. What would you say to this “other” person? Would she be wrong for wanting to leave an emotionally abusive husband?
2. What would a domestic abuse expert say?
Since most therapists, clergy, and almost everybody else doesn’t understand the ins and outs of domestic abuse. Especially when it comes to emotional and psychological abuse, they’re not the right people to ask whether your desire to leave your emotionally abusive husband is appropriate.
Anne Blythe, M.Ed, Producer & Host of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women assess their level of emotional safety everyday. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, emotional safety is the top priority. So rather than asking yourself if it’s wrong to leave or even if you should leave. The team at Betrayal Trauma Recovery will support you in your journey to discover what it means to be emotionally safe. And to take steps to become emotionally safe, in whatever way works for you.
3. Who told you it’s wrong to leave an emotionally abusive husband?
If you’re wondering if it’s wrong to leave an emotionally abusive husband, consider why you’re even asking this question in the first place. Does the question even make sense? Who has told you or where have you picked up the idea that it could be wrong to leave an emotionally abusive relationship?
Anne wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Meditations so that women can look inside themselves to sort out their own thoughts. And separate from the society scripting in their heads to determine what is the best course of action. Start listening to your intuition, rather than people who don’t understand what it’s like to live in your situation.
4. Consider asking, “How do I establish emotional safety?” Instead of, “Can I get to emotional safety?”
One thing’s for sure, all women can get to emotional safety. So it’s important to focus on HOW. Anne developed The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop for this reason – to help victims get to emotional safety.
Whether you’re fully committed to separating from your husband, or have gone back and forth on this painful decision, consider these tips and strategies Anne and Karen discuss in the transcript below.
Transcript: I Want To Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband
Anne: I have Karen DeArmond Gardner on today’s episode. She wrote the book, Hope for Healing from Domestic Abuse. Thirty years, four months, and two days after she said, “I do,” Karen left an abusive marriage. She walks with women as they learn to reframe what is normal, real, and necessary. So women can rediscover who God is and who they are; moving from hopelessness to hope.
Her passions include Jesus, her husband, healing, and coffee. Welcome, Karen!
Karen: Thank you for having me on, Anne. I am so excited about this.
Anne: Obviously, from her bio, Karen is a woman of faith. So am I. If you are agnostic or atheist or anything else, you are welcome here. We’re going to talk about our faith from our own perspective. Karen and I don’t share the same faith tradition per se. Everyone is always welcome. And also, if you come on the podcast, you’re always welcome to share from your own faith or non-faith perspective.
Anne: Karen, can you tell me a little about your story?
Karen: Oh, gosh. Where do you start in your story? When you left or when you got into it? As you shared already, I stayed 30 years in an abusive marriage. But at 20 years old, I did not know that. He was charming, kind, and funny. He listened to me, I told him secrets I had never told anybody in my entire life. And I had no idea who he was or that I would eventually want to leave my emotionally abusive husband..
Because I didn’t have anything to compare it to. I didn’t have a frame to put it next to. My mom sought a divorce in the sixties because my father was abusive. Then the man she was married to while I was growing up was an alcoholic. So I didn’t have anything to compare to what is normal and what’s not normal.
Anne: So many women have that situation. I remember telling my internal medicine, family practice doctor, I don’t know what is okay. Because I’ve never been married to anyone else. Everybody tells you marriage is hard, you have to work hard at it, and you have to be loving and patient. We get really educated about how to love, serve, forgive, be kind, listen, and all that stuff. We get very little education about abuse. So it gets confusing.
Karen: Honestly, nobody talks about that. Every pre-marriage should contain a section on abusive behaviors, and it should be done separately. Because she’s not going to admit that in front of him, or vice-versa. But we’re still not doing that even in this day and age. Nobody can imagine someone everybody likes who’s so kind, funny, and all these things has this dark side to them.
He Slowly Revealed His Dark Side: The Reality of Abuse
I’ve been out now, coming up, it’ll be 19 years. I still have moments where I’ll read something on social media, and I’m like, “Whoa, wow, yes.” So there’s all these tactics. There are so many. But even I am still surprised at what he did and how abusive it was.
Anne: I think the longer we’re out of it, we realize how intentional it was too, which is heartbreaking.
https://youtube.com/shorts/RLLLzEq6DTg
Karen: It is and I can’t tell you how many women I’ve talked to that say, “Oh, he didn’t do it on purpose.”
“Yeah, he really did.”
“No, no, he wouldn’t do that. He’s just had this and that…”
You can hear the cognitive dissonance going on in their brain. It’s part of that healing process of getting over the lies, we think they are true. Because he’s said it so many times and for so long. Those thoughts have taken over because he’s ingrained it with behaviors, reactions and punishments.
It is so reinforced that we think he couldn’t help it. It’s hard to admit that this man you shared your bed with. Raised children with, and said he loved you. Actually purposely married you so he would have the freedom to abuse you.
Making The Decision to Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband
Anne: I think it also comes from societal scripting, and some religious scripting. It almost confirms the abusive gaslighting they’re telling you. So then you go to a therapist, or a clergy, or a friend, and they unknowingly confirm to you this false reality. That, “Yeah, you should be submitting, that’s what a good wife would do.” Or whatever they’re saying that keeps you stuck and you don’t realize what’s happening.
Karen: Sometimes you don’t know that you have an option. Which, to some people, sounds a little crazy. But the reality is that when you’re in the middle of it, you feel like you don’t have any options. That there’s no way to leave my emotionally abusive husband.
Anne: You also have good intentions. You care about your children and your family. If clergy or someone else says to you, “If you care about your family, you need to forgive.” Or, “If you follow Jesus, then you need to submit, forgive, and pray for him.” Or advice that doesn’t help women get to emotional safety.
So you’re around 50 years old at the time, and you’re thinking, “I need to leave my emotionally abusive husband, to get to emotional and psychological safety.”
You see it as starting over, which is scary, because people don’t want to start over. They’ve already invested 30 years into this relationship. So thinking, “Am I going to put 30 years in the trash and start over?”
Can you talk about your decision to leave and the concept of starting over? How that either can help victims, “Oh, I get a fresh start.” Or it can actually keep them stuck, because they’re like, “I don’t want to start over. I’ve already invested too much.”
Starting Over, I Face New Challenges
Karen: I think starting over is the part that doesn’t even enter your brain. It didn’t enter my mind. I couldn’t even think that far ahead about what would happen. Six months before leaving was when I realized he wasn’t worth it anymore. This man clearly cares nothing about me.
It still took six months to leave, because I didn’t know how to do that. And I was isolated from my family. It just happened that my mom came in December for my daughter’s graduation from college. It was that week before Christmas, as everything came to a head. I don’t know how I decided to leave my emotionally abusive husband. But that’s all that I could think of.
I was 51 when I left. When I landed in Texas about three weeks later, I couldn’t even imagine life any different than it was. I felt like a little kid who someone took all the fences down, and I was afraid to move. Like there was dangerous traffic all around me. I was so stuck and terrified, and went from terrified to leave my abusive husband – I knew what he was capable of – to now, what do I do? But I don’t know how to do this.”
I was with my family. My sister would drive me places and help me make decisions. My brother was helping me because I couldn’t think straight. The thought of starting over seemed overwhelming. I didn’t use that terminology until I got a job. About two and a half months after I left, I got a new job here in Texas that changed my thinking, because suddenly I found these people that absolutely adored me.
After I Leave My Emotionally Husband, I Can See Possibilities For My Life
Karen: They actually liked me. That was a big deal. Over time, as I was away from his abuse, I could feel my mind clearing. As I was working at learning a new job, because I was in four months of training, I could feel the shift slowly happen. All of a sudden, I could see possibilities, and it was terrifying. After I leave my emotionally abusive husband.
I just literally felt like I was just bumbling around in the dark. Up until this point, I had part-time or inconsequential jobs. He wanted me to work, but I always worked under my capabilities. Every job I had was never to my capabilities. Now I have a job where I feel myself growing, learning, expanding my mind, and starting to see this is so different. It’s hard to put words to what I felt then, because I had no idea who I was. When I came out of the marriage, I was really mousy and quiet.
The Lord had to open up my mind to help me remember, he made you this way. This is not who you were. It has helped me accept where I am today, if that makes any sense.
Rediscovering Myself After I Leave My Emotionally Husband
Anne: There is a population of victims who were quiet before, so they’re like, “I was always quiet.” They get a little confused, but you have to realize that does not cause abuse. There are other women who are quiet, who aren’t abused. Also, some women who were quiet and maybe calm became more irritated or upset because he was abusive.
They’re thinking they are this angry, bitter person, because that’s what he’s told her. When really, she was just trying to protect herself. The different ways victims perceive themselves, and perceive their life before they decide to “leave my emotionally abusive husband.” It takes a while to sort it out.
I also think it takes some distance from that person. You’ve been exposed to their gaslighting for so long. When you’re away from it, you can process it a little better and say, “Wait a minute, yeah, I did become louder because I realized this wasn’t safe.”
Or, “I became quieter because that was the way I was trying to survive.” There are all different ways women react to it.
Karen: I totally agree. There is no cookie cutter how we respond when they bait us. First of all, we’re not all the same. We are all different in how we react. We all have our own way. It’s our own personality. It seems like abusers read the same manual and use the same tactics. But every abuser has their own nuance in how they do things. I know there are all these other terms that we can use, but I purposely use the word abuser. In reality, what we’re dealing with is someone who is abusive.
Abusers Want To Affect You
Karen: The point is abusers want to squish our personalities, and they want to shift us. Some abusers get off on the fact that when you react, when you fight back, they can go, “Oh, look at what you’re doing.” They always point it back.
Anne: They love that they affected you.
Karen: Oh yes.
Anne: For good, “Oh, I’m so grateful. Thank you.” Or for bad, “You’re stressing me out. You’re a terrible person.” They love the ability to affect you. That’s what they love. They don’t love you. They love the power, like, “Ooh, I have the power to affect her.”
You were around 50, and I’ll be 50 sooner rather than later, so it’s feeling very young to me right now. A lot of women think, “I can’t do this now, my time has passed, and I’m too old to get to safety. This has been my life for too long.”
Really quick, I had an abusive boyfriend in high school. He wanted me to marry him. And he told me that if I didn’t marry him right then, I would miss my chance. Because nobody gets married after 22. He’s like, “There are these three phases: right after high school, right after everybody gets home from their missions, and then right after another time. If you miss this phase, you will never get married. So we’ve got to get married now.”
In his mind, it was the third phase. I said, “No, thank you.” When we talk about obstacles, so many women think, “it’s too late for me to have a peaceful life. It’s too late for me to get to safety.” Or it’s too late to leave my emotionally abusive husband.
What are some obstacles? Can you talk about that in terms of starting over?
Overcoming Obstacles After I Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband
Karen: I would love to, because for the first time in my life, I had a career, and it was an amazing career. I learned all that I was capable of. It’s been almost 19 years, I’ll be 70 next month, and my life just continues to grow. I’ve discovered God loves people, and it’s not about our age. Look at all these people he used when they were older in the scriptures, like Moses, Abraham, and Sarah. That means nothing to God, because it’s never too late.
It’s never too late to leave, even if you’ve been married 40 or 50 years. Marriage… you will go through hard things, but it’s not supposed to be terrifying. That is not what it’s supposed to be. But it’s never too late to think I can’t leave my emotionally abusive husband. Starting over is daunting, no doubt. It really is. Depending if you’ve never worked, “What’s going to happen? What am I going to do?”
But you will find your way. I’m not saying it’s easy, because leaving is terribly hard. Once you decide, I need to leave my emotionally abusive husband. So is the after. You’ve got to learn, “Who am I?” Who you were before may not be who you are now. That’s okay, because maybe you needed some more healing. Some of the hardest questions to ask yourself is who are you today? Who do you want to be? What do you want to do?
How can I learn to dream again? Because we’re not limited by that. Yes, there’s always talk about youth, but honestly, think about what we were like when we were young and what we know now.
The Living Free Workshop Can Help You Heal
Karen: To me, about to turn 70, age is irrelevant. It used to bother me. I didn’t want to tell anybody how old I was. But now it’s like, no, I’m not done. I have so much more that God wants me to do. I was 68 when I wrote my book. It doesn’t limit Him. It doesn’t have to limit us.
Anne: That’s one of the things we talk about in the Living Free Workshop, a workshop that helps women communicate with an abuser in a strategic way to get to safety. Then set boundaries to get to emotional and psychological safety. One of those things is to dream. So many women have stopped because they think, “I have to be content with this. It will never get any better than this.”
Because that’s what they’ve been told. I find it satisfying to say, “No, there are so many options for you!” But it’s really hard to see that when you’re still being traumatized over and over. Let’s talk about women trying to heal, but they’re still being traumatized repeatedly by the abuser. Is it possible to heal while you’re actively being traumatized?
Karen: Leaving is not something you announce to the world. I don’t care what the TV’s and the movies say, you don’t announce to him, “I’m going to leave you.” You don’t do that. You become an actress, and if you’re thinking about it, you put on the face, you react as you normally would. When you decide, I will leave my emotionally abusive husband. You don’t let them know that you’re thinking is changing, though they’re very perceptive at noticing little nuances.
The Reality Of Post-Divorce Abuse
Karen: It’s a matter of protecting yourself and your kids. When you do leave, there’s a whole new level of trauma. Now, I have not experienced this, but I have watched, I have talked to women, and what they deal with after is horrible.
Whether you stay in an abusive marriage for 30 or 40 years, or you leave. The trauma stays because you have to deal with him until your kids are adults. The strength it takes for some women to stand for themselves. And to fight for the kids is extraordinary.
Anne: Yeah, it’s rough. I had eight years of post divorce abuse, and it is awful. After I decided to leave my emotionally abusive husband. I’m delivered now, which is amazing. I do think a lot of people, for good reason…
Karen: Yep
Anne: …are worried about the post divorce abuse, so they choose to stay. I found it better, because at least it wasn’t in my house. It was coming from the outside. I had a safe space where I could breathe, but that’s such a rare situation. Sometimes safety is the healing. Sometimes it’s almost instantaneous. You are really safe and they can’t harm you anymore. But it needs to be intentional.
Sometimes, someone doesn’t have to interact with the abuser anymore for any reason. For example, if someone gets abandoned. But there are still all those questions that come up, then his voice in your head and all the societal scripting.
Also, the anger of, “How did other people not help me with this secondary trauma?” When you are like, “This is obviously emotionally and psychologically unsafe for me. I need to start making my way. I need to start thinking about getting to safety.” And how do I leave my emotionally abusive husband?
The Importance Of Safety: I Want To Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband, Facing Hard Truths
Anne: What do you do when the start stops you? When the starting is the thing that you can’t quite do?
Karen: It’s so funny you say it that way, because the start can stop you. It is hard to know what to do. When you decide “I need to leave my emotionally abusive husband.” Even if you don’t believe in the Bible, there’s a scripture that says God did not give us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and a sound mind.” When we’re afraid, there is no love. Fear and love cannot occupy the same space. It’s one or the other.
It’s like taking two magnets, and they’ll automatically go together. But if you turn one around and try to put the magnet together, they will shoot apart. That’s what fear and love does. If you’re living in fear, you’re not living in love. Love has gone out of the equation, because the abusers keep you in a cycle of chaos. I don’t mean in a cycle of he’s abusive, then he’s not.
I mean a constant cycle of confusion. Which is why they use gaslighting. You will question everything you know is true, and you will doubt yourself at every single turn.
How in the world do you start when you can’t even think a straight thought? If you decide I’m going to leave my emotionally abusive husband, what if you’re wrong? He would set you up for failure in making decisions, because no matter what you did, it was going to be wrong.
How To Deal With The Cycle Of Chaos & Gaslighting
Karen: So now how do you make a decision? Should I leave my emotionally abusive husband? It sounds almost impossible. That’s why we say hard doesn’t even begin to explain the struggle of regaining your sound mind. Your correct thinking to take your power back, to take your love back, you’ve got to work through the battle. The obstacle we face is our own brain.
It’s brain science that our brain gets so jumbled up. How do we undo that to think clearly? Part of what we’re dealing with is undoing all that. When you become safe, suddenly you recognize the chaos is gone. You may not notice at first, because it’s a strange feeling. Where did the eggshells go, and I don’t have to watch out for a hidden landmine I might step on.
As you navigate that, your brain will start getting some clarity. Those clarity moments are sometimes hard because you have to face the hard truth that he never loved you.
Anne: Not because you’re not lovable, because you’re absolutely lovable, but because that’s not how he operates. He doesn’t even know how to love.
Karen: He doesn’t. He can put on a good show to get you to marry him and say all the right words. He’s a counterfeit. He’s a con man. It was too hard to watch the constant con trick. It’s literally what they do. They keep you guessing and wondering what’s true and what’s not.
Part of the healing process is determining what’s true and what isn’t. Am I valuable? Am I crazy? You feel crazy. That’s a word you can feel. That doesn’t mean you are. You can feel unlovable. That doesn’t mean you are.
Healing, Clarity & The Power Of Hope
Karen: The abuser makes us feel crazy, unlovable, and all these things. That doesn’t mean we discount them. We need to pay attention to those feelings, because those emotions are valid. Anybody that says, “Oh, don’t listen to your feelings and your emotions, they’ll lie to you.” No, they’re not. They’re telling you something’s wrong and to pay attention to them.
Anne: You just mentioned how hard it is going to be, and these are all the obstacles you’re going to face. For so many victims, I try to have this dichotomous conversation. Recently, I talked to a woman who decided she wanted to divorce. She had already decided, “I want to leave my emotionally abusive husband.”
I said, “Just go for it then. Make sure you don’t tell your clergy, because then he’s going to pull him in, get you in couple therapy, and you don’t want to do that. It’s gonna push you back like a year.”
I was trying to warn her about how hard it was going to be, and all the obstacles she was going to face trying to get to safety. Talking about that, and then talking about the hope. Sharing that, even though it’s going to be very hard, it’s the most worthwhile endeavor to deliver yourself from abuse. You will be grateful you took action to do that. For women of faith, you will see miracles along the way. They might seem really small.
You might wonder why is this happening? God cannot know, because He’s not helping me. Then maybe a year later or two years later, you’ll realize, “Oh, He was helping me, I just didn’t realize it.”
Giving Hope To Victims If They Want To “Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband”
Anne: We advocate for victims and educate women about abuse. Can you talk about helping them understand how hard it will be, and giving them hope? Why are those two things so important?
Karen: I agree. We have to tell people how hard it will be. It’s not necessarily going to get easier, but it’s not forever. It’s for now. What you’re feeling with what you’re dealing with is normal. Feeling crazy is normal, but it’s not forever. Your mind will clear. The hope grows. As you heal, you will discover what you were in and more of who you are.
It’s hard to see in the beginning, because we can’t see beyond the end of our nose. It’s as if your hand is in front of your face, and the longer you’re out, the more healing you get. It gets further and further away until suddenly you see, wow, there are trees out here. When did the sky get so blue? The world looked different after I decided to leave my emotionally abusive husband.
There was never a promise that life was going to be easy. We have evil in this world. There are evil people, and God gave us free will to choose and not choose. People make bad decisions on our behalf and harm us. When we’re out, we start making decisions, and if it’s a wrong one, okay. We learn from our mistakes. That’s part of the process of learning from right decisions and even wrong ones.
Everything is about hope. It’s not based on our religious beliefs or non-beliefs. It’s the fact that hope is built within us. We keep our eye on hope for our future, because it will get better. I believe what happened to us does not have to define us.
I Chose A Life of Peace, Because I Chose To Live Again & Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband
Karen: That is not who we are, it was what was done to us. Hope is so important, because the hard part was when I chose to live again. And leave my emotionally abusive husband. But it’s beautiful, it’s hard, glorious, and amazing all simultaneously.
Anne: I always want victims to know that it’s possible. I don’t want them to ask the question, can I get to safety? But to ask the question, how? How do I choose safety? Do I leave my emotionally abusive husband? I know I can. I know that a peaceful life is possible, I know that.
It’s been promised to me in the scriptures, for example, if you’re a woman of faith. Logically, it is possible to choose the life you want to live. Instead of saying, “Can I do it?” Don’t even think that. You can put that question in the trash and never, ever get it out. Only ask how. I would like a life of peace, so how do I get to emotional safety? How do I get to psychological safety? Then just start taking one step at a time.
Karen: Yes. The question becomes, Why not me? Not why me? Why did he choose me? Why did this happen to me, but why not me? For hope, for my dreams?
Anne: Absolutely, well Karen, thank you so much for spending time with us. I appreciate your thoughts and I’m so grateful that you shared your story.
Karen: Well, I am so appreciative to interact with you and to talk with you.
When My New Husband Is Abusive Too – Chandra’s Second Marriage
Aug 22, 2023
You don’t have anything wrong with you if you left an emotionally abusive marriage and your new husband is abusive too.
When women experience a second abusive husband, they may blame themselves:
I’ve already been through this once, how could I make this mistake again?
What is it about me that attracts me to abusers?
Why didn’t I see the signs sooner?
Why didn’t I do this, this, and this differently?
Here’s the truth: you are not to blame for his behaviors when your new husband is abusive too.
Blaming yourself for abuse by another man is needless torture. You have been through enough – please exercise compassion for yourself rather than judgment. Many women, including Chandra, experience embarrassment and shame when they realize their new husband is also abusive. This shame and embarrassment may deter them from seeking safety early on, believing that with enough grit and determination, they can make the marriage work.
BTR.ORG Is Here When Your New Husband Is Abusive Too
Victims of abuse who have a new husband may feel discouraged, embarrassed, and hopeless. Sometimes, victims express feeling silly or pathetic for having entered into a second marriage.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be loved. In fact, this is a normal part of being human. What is NOT normal, is being abusive. You are not the problem here – the abuser is the problem.
If you are experiencing trauma from a second husband, please join our BTR.ORG Group Sessions today. You deserve a healing community of loving, compassionate women who understand.
Transcript: When My New Husband Is Abusive Too
Anne: Chandra, a member of our community, is back on today’s episode. Last week, she told the story about her emotionally abusive first husband. This week, we’ll talk about her second husband, her new husband is abusive too. If you haven’t heard about her first marriage, go back and listen to last week first, and then join us here.
Chandra, welcome back.
Chandra: I’m still wrapping my head around grace for myself for not knowing before that my new husband was abusive. And getting into that situation again. I feel like, why didn’t I see the red flags after what I’d been through? Maybe it was too soon? I hadn’t learned the lessons I needed before another relationship. And I thought I was ready, but I must not have been right.
Anne: I’m going to disagree with you, sorry.
Chandra: That’s okay.
Anne: It’s not your fault that someone abuses you. There are so many women who don’t know much about abuse, or who don’t know how to recognize red flags. And they marry great guys.
Chandra: Yeah.
Anne: Because the guy’s not abusive.
Chandra: Right.
Anne: It’s never your fault if someone intentionally deceives you. It’s never your fault if someone intentionally grooms you, and you don’t know. Those who’ve been through it tend to know more, I would say, than the average person. The average person who marries a healthy person doesn’t know about it. Their husbands didn’t abuse them.
Anne: Even though you went through an abusive situation, this second abuser abused differently than before. I remember talking to a friend who was in a horrific abusive situation. And I was newly married. I went to her and said, “Hey, you know, what’s happening with my husband? Is this kind of what you experienced?”
Early Signs Of Trouble & A Vulnerable Time
Anne: She said, “No, your husband’s amazing compared to my guy.” Right, and so she thought my husband was healthy and great. She’s like, yeah, but nobody’s perfect. But like, man, he’s so much better. And so I was like, Oh, okay, well then he’s not abusive because she would know. Because she’s been in an abusive situation.
But that’s not necessarily the case, because abusers know how to groom people. They can groom you in a way that “works for you.” So I just don’t think it’s ever our fault. However, I think we learn a lot of skills along the way.
Chandra: Oh my, yeah.
Anne: So saying that, I just want to say no. Not your fault.
Chandra: Yeah, that helps. It’s nice to hear that. It’s just frustrating to have spent another eight years with somebody that was also not a great partner and hurt me again. And especially after all the promises. Like, oh, your first husband did you wrong, and I’ll take care of you and never let that happen to you blah, blah, blah.
So, I met my second husband at work. He was not working in the same company. But he was in sales and would visit and attempt to get me to specify his company’s equipment on projects. He was smooth, Mr. Debonair, a lot of fun and interesting. I felt super vulnerable too, and had a broken heart, and wanted to be loved.
And I was vulnerable, and I think sometimes these men can see that. These men look for somebody that is maybe compliant. And it’s a bit weaker and easy to control.
Visiting Back & Forth Without Kids
Anne: I don’t know about that either. Some of them are looking for someone who will manage them. Someone who’s strong. Someone who can organize things and do stuff so they can just kind of coast along. So I also wouldn’t say that’s your fault for everything. You could say, oh, I was weak. So that’s what he was looking for.
There’s also very kind and loving men who might be like, oh, she’s weak, so I need to protect her. So I just don’t think again that it’s your fault. Every time you tell me there’s some reason, I’m gonna say no, no, no. It is not your fault that your second husband is abusive too.
Chandra: Definitely. I’m a high functioning woman. I make stuff happen. I do it. Probably both husbands saw that and went, I want me some of that, right? I want that high functioning woman looking after my life, because let me tell you, I did that. I took care of things. What’s interesting, and this will just tie into my story a bit about my second husband. Is that I would visit him or he would visit me when we didn’t live in the same city, when my kids were visiting their dad.
And so I wish I had seen him more around my kids. If I had, I probably would not have married him, because he didn’t want my kids around. I didn’t discover that until after I married him and moved in with him. And whenever I visited him, his house was spotless. Okay, it looked great, his life looked great. He was looking after things. It all looked good. It didn’t look like my new husband would also be abusive.
The Disappointing Reality Of Living Together
Chandra: I will tell you that the day I moved in, I hadn’t visited for three months. And I am pretty sure he didn’t pick up a single dishcloth. He did not pick up a broom. He did not touch the bathroom. It was a pigsty the day we moved in. It was late at night, and we got there, and my kids needed baths. I remember 10 o’clock at night cleaning the bathroom, thinking, what have I gotten into? This guy wants me to do all the cleaning. He wants me to do everything around here.
I was never able to get him to pick up a broom or vacuum to help. From then on, he said, well, you’re the one with all the kids, so the mess is mostly yours. You need to clean up.
Anne: Was he a member of your church?
Chandra: No, he wasn’t.
Anne: And I’m not saying anything about, if he would have been, it would have been good, no, no, no.
Chandra: I remember thinking when we dated, should I date someone from my faith community? Well, first of all, the pickings were pretty slim where I was living. I lived in a remote northern community north of Toronto, not a lot of choice up there, I would say. There’s some good people up there, but I thought to myself, does it matter?
I married somebody who checked all the boxes I was taught to look for. And look what happened, he was also abusive. So do you think I care if he’s a member of my faith community?
Realizing The Extent Of The Problem
Anne: That’s exactly how I feel now. Yeah, I do not care.
Chandra: I did not care. I just wanted to be with someone who would love me and treat me right. And I thought that’s what I had, but quickly after moving in with him. I realized I was in another abusive relationship. The first Monday morning that we woke up to go to work, he woke up late, his alarm hadn’t gone off or something.
And he looked at me and said, “Why didn’t you get me up?”
And I was like, it’s my job to do that? What have you been doing all this time that you’ve been living alone? It’s not my job to get you up in the morning. And I thought, oh my gosh. He would come home at 10 o’clock at night, and I would not hear from him, and I didn’t know where he was.
And he would come in, and I would say, where were you? And why didn’t you let me know where you were? Like, you’re married, you should tell me where you are. He felt entitled to go wherever he wanted and do what he wanted, and he didn’t have to answer to me.
Anne: Had he been married before?
Chandra: No, and he was a few years younger than me. But his maturity was well below what he had presented. Like, he got into fights with my 10 year old son. And behaved in ways similar to my son. As if his emotional development was arrested at age 10.
Leaving A Second Abusive Marriage
Chandra: It was strange. I started noticing things about him. He had no empathy for my kids, and he did not treat them well. It didn’t take me long before I realized I needed to leave. And I actually moved out about four years after we moved in with him.
I mean, I tried for a while to make things work. But I knew right away I was not in a good situation. But I’ll tell you the shame of making a mistake. That’s what kept me in that situation much longer than I needed to be. That’s one thing I wish I could change, is just, you know, don’t worry about what people think, that I got myself into another abusive marriage. If it’s not right, do something about it. I know that’s not easy. It’s not that simple. I know that. But if I could change anything, that’s one thing I would change.
He had an affair, in the process of me preparing to move out, and I was not expecting that. I mean, we didn’t get along that great. And I was upset with him for his behaviors and the way he treated my kids. But I wasn’t expecting him to do that.
But I recognized the signs right away. And a week after I moved out, I had gone to his place to do my laundry. Because the place I’d moved into was getting a new washer dryer, and it wasn’t there yet. So I went over to his place and lo and behold, there’s a vehicle sitting in the driveway I didn’t recognize. it was unlocked.
My New Husband Is also Abusive: Confronting The Affair
Chandra: So I’m the wife. I’m going to open the door and look in the glove box. And it was a woman’s I. D. in there. And I looked her up on Facebook, and I went into the house. He had taken all the pictures of us, and any evidence that I existed, and swept it into drawers. Basically, he hid every possible evidence that he had a wife. I realized, oh, he’s out on a date with this woman, and he plans to bring her back here.
Because I don’t see any of my stuff out, I hadn’t taken everything. I thought this was going to be a short-term separation. I didn’t know. So I actually looked her up on Facebook, and I sent her a message. And I said, did you know that the man you’re on a date with is married? You know, I’m at the house, I’m going to do my laundry, and I’m not confrontational, but I’d like you to come and get your car and go home. And they stayed out for a while after that.
https://youtube.com/shorts/xZBJeXvdU4o
I know they’d seen my messages, and there was a bit of back and forth. And I just said, I’m just here waiting. I’m not going to hurt anybody. I’m not going to come out and yell at anybody, but I just want to talk to you. I said that to my husband.
Chandra: So he came in and I had evidence and all he could do was lie and lie and lie.
Dealing With Betrayal & Lies
Chandra: He was just lying his face off, trying to hide it. I’ve got the evidence that you’re with this woman, and messaged her the next day. Because even then, all the lies were shaking me up. And I thought, what if it’s not what it looks like. So I actually messaged her again the next day and asked her for details. She said he lied and was separated for six months. I had literally just moved out.
And I told her we were supposed to work on the relationship. We’ve been married for this long. And we struggle over getting along because of the kids. She had no idea he had lied to her, and made it sound like the relationship was over many months ago. She said, “I’m so sorry, I had no idea he told me these lies.”
And I said, “Okay, don’t worry about it.”
But then I showed him the messages. And said, “Look, she told me everything. I know this has been going on for two months.” And once he was found out, he broke down and cried, and, oh, you know, I’m so messed up. And yeah, let’s work on it, blah, blah, blah. So for the next year, I bent over backwards, like I did before, thinking this was just a mistake, like an accident, haha.
He made this mistake, and it’s just because things have been rough, and we’ve been fighting. And we got separated, and it knocked him loose, so he’s a little upset about that. I was making all these stupid excuses for him. I didn’t realize fully that he was abusive too.
The Impact Of Pornography When My second Husband Is Abusive
Anne: Were you aware that he used exploitative material?
Chandra: When we were dating, I said to him, “I absolutely don’t tolerate that stuff in my relationships.”
And he says, “Oh, well, I used to use that. I only use that when I’m single. I don’t need that. I’m not addicted.” That’s what he said. And I said, it is absolutely not welcome in our relationship. And he agreed. He’s like, okay. I can do that. I’m not addicted to it. But, I noticed right before I moved out, he was on his phone a lot.
At one point he had this friend send him images. And we were in the bedroom one time, and he showed me a picture, and he said, Oh, my friend just sent me this. And I took one look at it, and I went, what the heck is that? I said, “That’s pornography. I don’t want to see that.” I was disgusted by it.
And I was angry at him, and I caught him a couple of other times looking at images. And I realized, he went back to it. Maybe he’s been doing it the whole time, and I don’t even know. And he would have problems performing in bed.
Anne: Yep, that’s a thing. Yeah.
Chandra: Right, yeah, and I didn’t realize that, but it sort of made sense. I thought, well, if he’s fooling around with that all the time, he’s not going to have it for me. But he would tell me, he’d say, oh, you do it for me, you do it for me, that kind of thing. Anyway, I realized that was happening, my second husband was also abusive.
Unsuccessful Attempts To Salvage The Relationship
Chandra: Because I didn’t want that again, I made a big effort the year after the affair to go and see him, spend time with him and be intimate with him. Let me tell you.
Chandra: Thinking that would solve the problem. Neither of my husbands were deprived of intimacy. I’ll just say that. They were not. There was no reason for them to do anything else.
Anne: Even if they’re deprived of intimacy? There’s still no reason for them to do that.
Chandra: I guess the reason I say that is because my first husband had said he had an expectation. That he expected it every day when he married. That’s what he thought. And somehow I had dropped the ball and not made that happen for him. And so that was one of his excuses for acting out.
So moving right along, basically, I think there was more divine intervention in helping me get past this relationship. A year after my second husband had that affair, a bunch of horrible things happened all at once. I lost my job, had a layoff. And I actually think it was related to all the stress I was under. I struggled emotionally and performed at work, but my attitude was bad.
I was really suffering because he is abusive too. Instead of asking me if there was anything they could do to help, my employer was like, she’s a problem. Get her out of here. At least that’s my interpretation of what happened. And being in an all male work environment was just a tough environment for women to be in. But there was no understanding. You know, I was driving my kids around a lot.
Losing A Job & Coping With Loss
Chandra: Sometimes I would have to leave in the middle of the day to take them to appointments. And I don’t think anybody understood what I was going through a second abusive marriage at the time. Trying to work full time, build my career as an engineer, and take care of four kids. It was insane. And I had no family around to help me.
So, I lost my job. And I had a miscarriage somehow. I was 43 and pregnant, and I actually felt so relieved that pregnancy didn’t happen. Because I wasn’t with a good person. When I went through that, I was at the hospital dealing with that. And he couldn’t be bothered to come. He went fishing instead. And that kind of didn’t sit well with me.
Then, you know how, uh, the phones you can have, uh, share my location with your partner, with family members? We had been trying to get that to work, because I wanted to keep tabs on him. And his phone, I couldn’t get it to work with his phone, I couldn’t figure it out.
It was a Sunday afternoon. He came and had dinner with me and the kids. at our place. Then he just went home. And it was weird, because most of the time we spent time on Sunday evenings together before the work week started. And he just went home. I think he said something about having something to do. And I was just sitting there minding my own business. And suddenly, my phone showed me his location.
Discovering The Truth, abou My New Husband
Chandra: And he was in a part of the city that he shouldn’t have been in at that time of day, or during that time of the week. It didn’t make sense. He was down in a part of the city where they would have festivals, and there was actually a festival in the city at the time. I think this was divine intervention and a way to wake me up to the situation I was in. Because I felt panicky again suddenly, and I followed to the location.
And there was this truck in the parking lot at this festival spot. And I thought, Oh my gosh, he’s fooling around on me still. All of a sudden, he returned from the festival towards his truck. And I got out of my car, and he was with a woman, and I started walking towards him. He saw me and he started walking away from her. And I pointed at him and said, “You’re doing it again!” And I said to her, “He’s a cheater.”
I said, “He’s married to me. He’s basically already had one affair, and now he’s trying to have another one.” And I was like, freaking out.
Anne: And most likely more than that that you never knew about.
Chandra: Well, I did find out a lot more later. Because after that happened, I said, “You have to give me all your passwords.” And that’s when I started checking his emails, Facebook, and doing all this stuff. To try and wrap my head around how big this problem was. But I still remember thinking, this is a pattern. You know how they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Uncovering The Extent Of Numerous Betrayals
Chandra: I thought to myself, why am I accepting this behavior? And so I gave him another chance. I think I felt ashamed of the situation for a second time. and thought, I want to make this right. I thought there was still a way to figure it out. So I spent the next few months finding out more about what he’d been up to. And contacting many of the women he had been messaging on Facebook and asking them what had actually happened. Collecting evidence that my second husband is abusive as well.
I was doing my sleuthing, right? They messaged me and said, “Oh yeah, he asked me for pictures, and he wanted to get together.” And they told me about conversations. I did all this research and finally said to him. You know, the only way we’re staying together is if we get some counseling from somebody. That can help a couple heal from betrayal.
Anne: Oh, because you didn’t know it was abuse.
Chandra: I still didn’t know. I still didn’t see it that way.
Anne: I want to hear how this counseling went. Because I would guess it’s not doing any good and not going very well.
Chandra: It didn’t do any good. The counselor was well known and does couples counseling to help them heal from betrayal. His approach was better than anything else we’d done. We’d been to counseling two or three times.
Anne: It seems like it would work. It sounds good, it sounds like, oh, our relationship can be healed. It does not work. And in fact, it puts an abuse victim in further danger. And that is what is so scary.
When Your second Husband Is Abusive Too, You Are Not To Blame
Anne: They are not informing people or even acknowledging that this is a perpetrator and abuse victim, so it’s super dangerous for the victims.
Chandra: Yeah, I think the reason I thought it was better. He identified to my second ex-husband that I was injured. He did identify that. And he was trying to get my ex-husband to take the necessary steps to address the injury that had happened to me. He basically said, “This can’t get better until her injury is addressed properly.”
It was better than anything I came across up until that point, right?
Chandra: And he would split us up and speak to us separately. He would give my ex-husband homework, but he would ask us to report back on how things were going separately. So I got to provide feedback on what was happening myself. You know, it evolved beyond what some counselors do.
But it still wasn’t hitting the mark. I recognized that my ex-husband was just jumping through hoops. And making it look good. I recognized that he was just going through the motions. That’s when I realized I was done. We had Christmas. And he went home on Christmas Eve, and he was going to come in the morning and open presents with us. But when he went home that night. He was upset he hadn’t been the center of attention, and he basically texted me and said, “I’m so depressed.”
Emotional Manipulation Unveiled & No Support
Chandra: I don’t get enough attention from you. I think I’m gonna kill myself. Of course, I was terrified, and when he didn’t show up in the morning, I actually went to his house to check if he was okay. And I half expected to find that he’d shot himself or something. That wasn’t the first time he did that.
I realized later that’s emotional abuse and manipulative. I’m upset, and after that happened, I thought, I don’t want this anymore. This is a cycle. I didn’t call it abuse at the time. I just don’t want to live this life anymore. And I deserve better than this. Basically, the entire experience, the 15 years I’ve had, since my first husband left. I have not found decent support in my faith community.
With a few exceptions, there were a few people who were caring and loving. But for the most part, I found that people do not want to talk about it. They don’t want to look at it, they don’t want to hear your story, and why can’t you get over it already? I also don’t feel like the trauma is well understood, like losing a baby, or the death of a spouse. It’s almost like there’s a hierarchy of what’s considered trauma, worthy of compassion, and what’s not.
I got the sense, I started to think. Wow, it almost feels like I’m being ostracized and treated like I’m second class. Because they think I must have done something wrong to deserve what happened to me. And I thought, why would they think that?
Understanding Trauma & Ostracism Of Abandonment
Chandra: And I think it’s actually a defense mechanism where people are afraid of that kind of thing happening. Like, I don’t want to be the abandoned woman. I don’t want to be betrayed. And if I think to myself, well, she must have done something to deserve it, and I don’t do those things, then it won’t happen to me. Without anybody actually ever saying that, is the sense that I have over the years. From the way people have reacted to me and treated me.
Anne: I also think many women are in that situation. If they talk about it, or if they empathize with you, if they don’t blame you at all.
Then they think that could also happen to me in a very real way, in that they are actually going through it. And so they, they think, okay, well, I’m not going to talk about it or acknowledge it , and then he won’t leave me.
Chandra: Yeah, I’m not going to face it. I’m not going to talk about it. Yeah, totally. And the other thing I experienced was people trying to diminish it, make it into a one-time event.
You know, I understand that something happened to you in the past, and now I’m being abused by my new husband, and that was hard. But you know, you shouldn’t let it affect how you are now. And that is not a one-time event. What happened to me, what happened to me, has been ongoing for 25 years, and I continue to suffer. I watch my children suffer.
The Ongoing Cycle of Abuse: When Your New Husband Is Abusive
Chandra: I continue to be abused. My first husband continues to financially abuse me. It’s not a one-time event, and people don’t understand. It’s a long process to overcome the trauma happening around those circumstances.
Anne: They don’t understand that we’re still being abused. Actively abused. Yes, actively. And when you tell them that, they’re like, “Well, I guess we’re.” They just don’t get it.
Chandra: They just don’t get it.
Anne: There’s nothing that you could say to be like, no, I’m still actively abused. Well, you’re not married to him. So how could he do that? Is he hitting you? Is he coming over to your house and smacking you in the face?
Chandra: Yeah, it’s not, it’s so subtle. But the thing is, I found myself getting more and more angry at those reactions. And, you know, like I said before, I’m a praying woman. I prayed for help, because I knew I was so angry and frustrated. And I don’t think I had ever had the support I needed. Your Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group didn’t exist when I went through my first abandonment and betrayal. I didn’t have any close friends who had been through it.
And even my own family loved me and tried to support me. But no one understood what I was going through. I felt alone for many, many years and was just in executive functioning mode, just trying to make stuff happen for everybody. When I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, I felt validated, supported and understood for the first time.
Finding Solace In Betrayal Trauma Recovery
uuse and healing some of the spiritual and emotional wounds I’ve had. Because of the pain of, my second husband being husband is abusive.
You know, I was high functioning, making stuff happen in my day to day life, and was focused on that.
My youngest daughter turned 18, and she moved out, and I was on my own, empty nester in a new marriage. I realized I had a lot of wounds to heal, and I was feeling angry about some of my experiences with people in my faith community, and I thought I needed help.
I think that’s why I found you, because it was the right time. And I think God knows when we need certain things in our life. And that’s why I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast when I did.
Anne: I’m so glad you did. I’ve heard so many stories like that of people who said, I need help. I need help. They say a prayer, a stand up, go to their computer and find the This podcast.
Pay Attention To Your Gut Feelings
Anne: And I’m actually very humbled that they think Heavenly Father directs them here. I’m grateful he helped me start this podcast. And then helped BTR grow so that people can find us. I never imagined it growing in this way.
And so I think. God’s hand really is in this, and he really does love us and care about us, and he wants us to find each other and hear these stories. Because knowing that we’re not alone is so healing.
Chandra: Yeah. What you’re doing is incredible, and it’s inspired, and it’s really, really badly needed.
Anne: Well, I needed it, which is why I started it.
Chandra: Yep, yep, exactly.
I think probably one of the most important things would have been to pay closer attention to the gut feelings. I don’t know how to get over the issue women face when their husbands lie to them. It’s not normal to actually think someone is lying to you. That’s why lying is emotionally abusive. I have to, I have to share something.
The Power of Truth Default Theory When Your Husband Is Abusive
Chandra: I read a book by Malcolm Gladwell called Talking to Strangers. He uses some examples to illustrate something called Truth Default Theory. Which came out of Timothy R. Levine’s research. He’s a distinguished professor at the University of Alabama.
He has this theory about how when we communicate with other people, we not only tend to believe them. But the thought that maybe we shouldn’t doesn’t even come to mind. And it allows people to communicate in society. But it makes it really hard for women in these situations to actually detect lying in their husband.
And when Malcolm Gladwell wrote about this, he said, we have a default to truth. Our operating assumption is that people we are dealing with are honest. To snap out of truth default mode requires a trigger. A trigger is not the same as a suspicion or the first sliver of doubt. Also, we fall out of truth default mode only when the case against our initial assumption becomes definitive.
We don’t behave like sober minded scientists, slowly gathering evidence of the truth or falsity of something before reaching a conclusion. We do the opposite. And start by believing, and we stop believing only when our doubts and misgivings rise to the point where we can no longer explain them away.
Doubts trigger disbelief only when you can’t explain them away. In the movies, the brilliant detective confronts the subject and catches him right then and there in a lie. But in real life, accumulating the evidence necessary to overwhelm our doubts takes time.
The Challenge Of Detecting Lies When Our Default Is Believing Others Are Telling The Truth
Chandra: He says in his book, “You ask your husband if he’s having an affair, and he says no.”
And you believe him. Your default is that he is telling the truth. And whatever little inconsistencies you spot in his story, you explain away. But three months later, you notice an unusual hotel charge on his credit card bill. And the combination of that and the weeks of unexplained absences and mysterious phone calls pushes you over the top.
That’s how lies are detected. Default to truth becomes an issue. When we choose between two alternatives, one of which is likely and the other impossible to imagine. Default to truth biases us in favor of the most likely interpretation, right up to the point where believing becomes absolutely impossible.
This is how most human beings are wired. In those rare cases where trust ends in betrayal, those victimized by default to truth deserve our sympathy, not our censure.
Anne: That’s so good.
Chandra: And I came across that, and it was really validating. Because I’d had people ask me after my husband left and his affair came out. And I had said, “I knew something was going on, but I just didn’t know what.”
I knew something was wrong, and I knew he was lying to me. And I remember one woman in particular said to me, then why didn’t you just leave? If you knew, why didn’t you just leave? She was challenging me. And I thought. I couldn’t explain it at the time. Now after reading this, I understand we’re not wired to think people lie to us.
Anne: Especially not our own husband.
Chandra: Exactly, it takes a lot of evidence to get to the point that pushes us over that edge.
Seeing Lying Everywhere After Betrayal
Chandra: And it’s funny, because after all this has happened, I think everybody lies to me. Now, it’s really hard for me to trust anybody. I almost think if I could talk to my younger self, I would want to say don’t believe everything people tell you. Even and especially, not necessarily the people you trust the most. They might not always tell you the truth. Be willing to consider that.
Anne: I’m always telling women in this situation where they find out about exploitative material or something that’s a big lie, huge lie, to reconsider all the other things he said. So for example, if they said, “Well, I talked to my pastor, and he says I’m fine. And that I can, whatever.” Maybe consider, he never actually talked to the pastor. Maybe the pastor never even said that. “I said to my therapist, this, and the therapist said this.” Maybe consider the therapist didn’t say that at all.
There are so many things to consider that you think, okay, well, I caught him in this. And then he goes to the therapist, and the therapist said. And they don’t realize that perhaps the therapist never even said that. So we just don’t know what we don’t know in these situations. Because we hear so many lies. It is impossible to know where the truth starts and where the lies end, or vice versa.
The Importance Of Safety In Relationships When Your second Marriage Is Abusive Too
Anne: But what you can know is that this person is not trustworthy, and I need to be safe. And someone lying to me is a safety issue. Yeah, it’s, it’s not a moral issue. It’s not an annoying issue or an addiction issue. It’s a safety issue. You deserve to be in a relationship where you are emotionally and psychologically safe. Because it’s not psychologically or emotionally safe for you to be in a relationship where someone is lying to you. Especially if they’re constantly lying to you.
That is just super, super unsafe. And it’s also really bad for you spiritually because then you’re having to go against what God is trying to alarm you about. Like the spirit or your internal intuition, whatever you want to call it, is screaming out to you. Something isn’t right. And in order to trust your husband, in that instance, you’re having to go against the ultimate truth. And that is the spirit of God, if you’re religious or your own intuition, or the universe or whatever you want to call it.
In my faith, I call it the spirit, it’s trying to warn you someone is lying to you. Get to safety, right? Safety, safety, safety , but it’s so hard to determine when you’re not safe. That’s the problem. It sounds easy, but determining this is very hard. Yeah, I don’t blame anyone who is going through the difficult time of trying to sort out what is happening. Especially if they’re never getting the correct information.
Which is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop to give women a way to determine their husband’s character. To get enough space to observe what he’s doing.
The Journey To Emotional Safety Is Challenging
Anne: Now that you’re married to someone who is not abusive, I hear from people in that situation. I’ve never been in that situation, so I don’t know what it’s like. But for women in abuse situations, who don’t know it’s abuse. When they go to clergy or friends or therapists or whoever. A lot of people will tell them, “Well, you know, marriage is really hard.”
It’s a lot of hard work. And then I talk to women who have been in an abuse situation, and then they marry a man who’s non-abusive. And frequently, I would say 100 percent of the time, probably 99 percent of the time. They’re like, it’s not hard work at all. Like it’s a little work, but it’s not. I don’t even know what they’re talking about. Marriage does not have to be this grueling, terrible slog. Do you agree with that? How are, how are you feeling?
Chandra: Oh my, wholeheartedly. After the craziness, chaos, pain, and struggle of two abusive situations. I would say being married to a “normal” man is the most, I can’t even describe the difference. It’s so much easier. It’s so peaceful. And so different. And I want to just say this, the difference, being intimate with a man who is not caught up in it. Versus one who is, that is like night and day.
And that’s real love. When the man is not addicted, you are the apple of his eye. What I mean is you are the center of his world, because he’s not distracted and looking around at everything else. I wanted marriage to be like that.
There Is Nothing Wrong With Wanting To Be Loved When even when Your New Husband Is Abusive
Chandra: A situation with somebody that loves me, cares about me, and wants to focus on me. And love him in return. That’s what I wanted. And now I finally have that, and it’s like night and day.
Anne: Well, that’s what marriage is or should be, right?
Chandra: Yes, that’s what it should be.
Anne: The men who marry and don’t want to love their wife. They don’t commit to loving her. They don’t care. What they want is a slave, maybe? Or someone who does their dishes or something?
Chandra: Why do those men even get married? I don’t understand why they marry.
Anne: I don’t either, control, maybe?
Chandra: I’m not sure. Yeah, somebody to do the dishes and make dinner? I don’t know.
Anne: I think they perceive it as a control thing, right?
Chandra: Maybe.
Anne: Someone’s in their power, and many abusers like it when their wives have children. Because then they can entrap them, right? So from a religious standpoint, oh, marry, have kids, and abusers are like, great.! Because then she will be stuck with me forever, and getting away from me is very, very hard. So all the religious scripting too makes it difficult to recognize, like maybe having a kid with this guy is not the best idea.
You know, it’s so complex. And I appreciate you taking the time to share. And thank you for saying that, because the more women I talk to in healthy marriages. That are saying that, it makes me happy. And I just want to share that with everyone else.
Marriage To A Non-Abuser Is Not Hard
Anne: Like, when people say, well, you know, this is an average marriage. Because the average marriage is really, really hard.
Chandra: No, it’s not.
Anne: The answer would be, well, the average marriage to an abuser is, yeah, it is hard,
Chandra: But not a non-abuser.
Chandra: Nope, not a non-abuser. It’s totally different.
Anne: And I’m so happy for you that you’ve got that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story with us today.
Chandra: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to hear it. It helps to talk about it.
This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims – Chandra’s First Marriage
Aug 15, 2023
Have you wondered how abusers manipulate their victims? Chandra shares how her first husband manipulated her to keep her in the dark. Chandra, a Shero and member of the BTR.ORG community, shares the first part of her incredible story of surviving abuse despite her first husband’s many attempts to control the narrative.
It’s strategic – the way they control the story. This is how abusers manipulate their victims. And the first step they take is telling the story first. The first to talk is generally the one that people believe, unfortunately. So if the abuser seeks religious counseling, back-up from law enforcement, or “emotional support” from family and friends before the victim. They are more likely to be believed and discredit the victim.
Furthermore, abusers manipulate their victims by spinning the narrative to make themselves look like the victim. They often do this by admitting to a degree of abuse, but giving an excuse that draws pity or praise:
“Yes, I did cheat, but I’m working a therapist on overcoming my childhood trauma, and I’m hoping she’ll forgive me for my attachment issues that led to me betraying her…”
“If it wasn’t a sexless marriage, I wouldn’t have to do the things I do…”
“My family was abusive, and I’m working so hard to be a better man. I just wish she’d stop ignoring my texts so I could tell her how hard I’m working. Can you ask her to talk to me?”
Abusers Spin The Story: “I’m The Actual Victim Here”
Whether they blame the affair partner, like Chandra’s ex-husband did, or blame the abusive family they grew up in:
“I was raised to _____” (objectify women, use exploitative material, hit, sexually abuse women, etc)
Blame society:
“I’m a man! What do you expect?”
Or blame a host of other situations or people, including their hormones, friends, alcohol, drugs, or stress. Abusers who manipulate their victims and are adept at shifting blame from taking accountability for their own choices. To make it appear they were the victim of just about anyone and anything else.
The message is loud and clear: “I’m the victim! So feel sorry for me! Stay distracted from trying to ask me to stop hurting you, and don’t even think about asking me to be accountable. I want to be catered to. And given all the so-called privileges that Iperceive victims receive!”
Abusers Control The Narrative Early & Often
Healthy people are generally compassionate, and abusers manipulate their victims by using this. It’s common for abusers to disclose childhood abuse and other traumas early in the relationship. To elicit a blanket of pity that allows them to behave as they want, without consequences. This way, they can be as awful as they want, and can never be held accountable because of the pain from their childhood trauma. But here’s the thing:
Many, many adults have severe childhood trauma, but they don’t choose to abuse others.
This is how abusers manipulate their victims: When abusers control the narrative, it’s terrifying. Sometimes we don’t even believe ourselves.
But at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe YOU. You aren’t alone, and we know you are not crazy.
Transcript: This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Chandra. She’s a mother of four children. She’s a professional mechanical engineer, and a running enthusiast. She happens to be a Boston marathon finisher. So yay, good job there! She loves yoga and happily married for three years to a healthy, kind, humble man. Chandra married two separate abusers.
So part one will be about her first marriage, and then part two next week will be about her second marriage. This episode will focus on how abusers manipulate their victims by controlling the narrative. And then of course stay tuned for next week about her second marriage. Because so many women have gone through that. Where they get out of one abusive marriage, and then through no fault of their own, find themselves in a second one.
Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, Chandra.
Chandra: Thank you, Anne.
Anne: Our stories, Chandra. That’s where do we even start, right?
Chandra: Yeah.
Anne: Yeah, so because you have, I would say, your own story, which is one complete story of your experience, but your story includes two marriages. Let’s start with the first marriage. How old were you when you met him?
And did you recognize that you were experiencing abuse at first?
Chandra’s First Marriage: The Beginning
Chandra: I met my first husband when I was about 17, and we started dating then. He was known for having a girl in every city. When he “chose me,” I felt like I had won the lottery. He was a charismatic, outgoing person, and I wasn’t so much. What I didn’t recognize in these early stages was that he was a bit of a womanizer. And loved that attention from other women. And he loved bombed me a lot at first. I didn’t recognize that’s what that was.
I felt like I enjoyed the attention I got from him and his prolific love letters and professions of love. It’s intoxicating, right? So that’s how things started, and I didn’t see any red flags early on. Right before we married, he actually served a mission trip, a two year mission trip for our church. Right before he left, he gave me a little promise ring. And said, “When I come back, we will marry.”
We’d been dating for about six months when he left, and I was excited about that. I thought, that’s going to be awesome. And I think I’d like to wait for this person, because I was in love with him. And while he was away for those two years, he wrote me a lot of love letters. I thought, this guy isn’t working on his mission. He just writes me letters, and they’re full of all these professions of love.
Early Red Flags & Realizations
Chandra: When he returned, we basically marry within less than a year. We were both 21 at the time. So I was a little young and still in university. A couple of days before we married, he told me something he had just realized. He told me he remembered when he was five, a foster child living in his family home sexually abused him. And I remember at the time thinking to myself, oh boy, what kind of can of worms is this going to be?
And if he’s just realizing this, you know, it sounds like something we’ll have to deal with during the marriage. Because he hasn’t obviously dealt with it up to this point. So I expected some issues. And I knew, because he confessed to me, that during his teenage years, he had made some “mistakes.” And I didn’t know that he was manipulating me.
If you’re thinking about the standards of our church. He’d had some indiscretions and had sorted all that out. He never wanted to get into any details with me. About what that involved. So, I saved myself for marriage, and as far as I knew, he had as well. Our parents raised us that way.
https://youtu.be/TCFNQiZpDsg
He checked all the boxes. He had all the right things when it came to a marriage partner. Even though we were young, I didn’t expect to run into any problems. And I know that everybody liked him in my family, and everyone was excited about our marriage. So we married. The first time I became aware I could have a problem in my marriage was when my oldest daughter was 18 months old.
Thinking I Was Not Good Enough
Chandra: My younger sister had actually just passed away. He decided that was a good time to tell me that he was actually developing a relationship with someone else at work. I remember reflecting later on this. Why did I responded this way? But I immediately thought it was something to do with me. That I was not good enough, he manipulated me to make me think it was my fault.
I was in school, we had a baby and it was a rough time. We were tired and didn’t have a lot of money. And I thought, oh, all the pressures of getting our lives off the ground, it’s been too much for him. So I thought, oh, I’ve got to make life better for him, and I’ve got to fix this, and maybe I’m not good enough. I basically spent the rest of the marriage trying to be the perfect wife, this was the result of staying married after infidelity. And just getting angrier and angrier as I noticed red flags popping up.
I noticed he would lie to me about small things, about money. I could see him flirting with other women. And he became more and more deceptive and withdrawn. He never emotionally connected with me or opened up to me. I think that’s all part of their desire to control the narrative.
As I get into my story more, I definitely have some examples of how he did that kind of thing. Making it about him, and telling me things that were not true, to control the narrative and what I was experiencing. It’s very confusing to be around someone doing that. The first time I had any inkling that I was in something that might be abusive in terms of a relationship and that lying is emotionally abusive.
The Inappropriate Neighbor Incident
Chandra: We lived in this neighborhood. I had three children at the time. I think I was pregnant with my fourth and last child. There was a lady who moved into the neighborhood. She was a single mom, separated from her husband. She had three children, and needed a lot of help. I remember befriending her and having her over with her kids, talking to her and doing things for her. I would watch her kids sometimes.
At Christmas time, she didn’t have a lot of money, and we were doing reasonably well. So I bought some gifts for her kids, took them over to them, and invited them for Christmas dinner. She was in my life, and I think we actually invited her to church with us. She was sitting behind us in the pew with her kids.
The bishop in our congregation at the time actually came to my ex-husband after the meeting and warned him. He said to him, “I think you need to be careful of the woman you brought to church.” And I didn’t know at the time, he was fooling around with her. I didn’t know the extent of what was happening. But I was starting to feel strange about the situation, and I visited a friend of mine.
She, my closest friend at the time, actually married his best friend. And I was talking to them and mentioned the situation. And her husband, my friend’s husband, his best friend, said to me, “You don’t know everything about him, you know.” And I thought, What? What does he mean by that? And I went home, and that was the first thing I asked him. What’s going on with this neighbor?
He Admits To An Affair
Chandra: And I think at the time she’d actually moved out of the neighborhood. He told me he was friends with her and they were working on a business together. And she had this great business idea, and he had this pattern of always starting businesses. I don’t know why, but he loved to start businesses. He made a bunch of money, and then he spent it all or lost it all. It was kind of the cyclical behavior that he had.
So he started a business with her. He told me that she had basically attacked him. He was the one who had taken the high road. And said, “There’s all these people we need to think about. We can’t have this happen, there’s all these children, and my wife.” He was trying to make himself look like he was the good guy, and that he stopped it.
Anne: And at the same time, he’s not cutting off contact with her, he was maniplulating you and her.
Chandra: No, no, and I still don’t know if he completely cut it off. She wasn’t living in the neighborhood anymore, and I honestly don’t know what happened after that. But when my friend’s husband told me I didn’t know everything about him, he actually wasn’t talking about this woman. He was talking about something else that I knew nothing about.
Anne: Wow.
Chandra: He talked about how my ex-husband went to strip clubs. He knew my husband would go to strip clubs. I knew nothing about that until many years later, when my husband did a big disclosure dump on me right before he left.
His Best Friend Knew, But Didn’t Tell Me
Chandra: What bugs me about my friend’s husband knowing that and not sharing that with me. Is feeling like there was someone else who knew about his destructive behaviors and was complicit in his abuse of me. I was so upset later on just knowing that.
Anne: Why didn’t he just flat out tell you?
Chandra: Yeah, he was like, oh, well this is between you two, and I’m going to let you go home and talk to him about this. And ask him.
Anne: Yeah, but he’s already been lying to you the whole time, right? This is how these men manipulate their wives.
Chandra: Exactly.
Anne: So, why wouldn’t he lie to you again? The other question I have is, did you say it was the bishop that came over that day and said, I’d watch out for her?
Chandra: Yep.
Anne: Okay, I don’t know if he knew what was going on or not, but why didn’t he say watch out for your own husband?
Chandra: Well, he didn’t talk to me. He talked to my husband. And said he thought this woman looked like she was. He just had a funny feeling about the situation, and he said that to my husband.
Anne: And he assumed it was her, rather than him.
Chandra: He assumed it was her, not him. He assumed my husband was innocent in the whole thing. I know, scary, huh? That is super scary. Nobody said anything to me either, so I had no idea.
My Sister-In-Law’s Reaction Shook Me Up
Chandra: This is what happened. I had a sister-in-law living in the same city as me at the same time. And we were close. I was just talking to her one day. And I told her about all this, and I said, oh, this stuff happened. I was just kind of telling her and her reaction. She was so indignant and so upset. About the whole thing, and her reaction actually shook me loose. Because I was going along like, yeah, this happened.
And it’s not great. And I don’t know what to do about it. But she was upset about it. I actually had a fight with him, I think that night or like later that week. And I brought it up again. I felt like he was like telling me all these lies to cover up what was going on, and to manipulate me into not finding out the truth. But I had no proof that anything he was saying to me was true or not. So I could feel there was something wrong, but I had no proof. And I was upset. I went for a walk.
I was like five months, six months pregnant. It’s the middle of winter. I’m out walking for about an hour, and just the sum total of all the small lies. And seeing him flirt with other women, and all the bending over backwards, I’d done. To be the perfect wife, so that he would be happy.
I just thought, I need to get out of this relationship. So I remember thinking that and just thinking, I don’t want to be here anymore. I don’t want to do this anymore. But I was pregnant. I had been out of school for six or seven years. I had no work experience. And I was scared.
Abusers Manipulate With Charisma
Chandra: I was also afraid of how I would be treated by all the people who pressured us to succeed in our marriage. You know, the faith community, the families. I knew nobody would believe me. Because he was Mr. Charisma, and everybody thought he worshiped the ground I walked on. He manipulated everyone and he behaved outwardly made it look like that. So I didn’t think I could do anything at the time. And so I didn’t, I didn’t leave.
I wish I had, because being abandoned is a lot worse than getting the courage up to leave yourself.
Anne: Do you feel like now that was God telling you to leave? I mean, you kind of mentioned that, but do you feel now that that’s really what that was?
Chandra: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I believe in God, and I’m a praying woman. And I can definitely see when I look back, many, many situations where God was trying to help me move forward. And get away from dangerous situations to protect me and help me. You know, I do see that.
Anne: God’s telling us something, we can feel that, and yet religious scripting. Or maybe even our religious leaders are telling us to go against the revelation God is giving us. Like we’re thinking, no, we can’t break our vows or covenants. Or we can’t “break up our family.” When God directly tells us, you are not safe. You need to get to safety. And we don’t have the words, the understanding, or the knowledge to interpret it that way at the time.
Abusers Manipulate By Clouding The Truth
Anne: So I don’t think it’s our fault, it’s so hard to do what God wants us to do. When the people we feel like, I’m going to say “represent God on the earth.” Our minister, pastor or bishop, tells us to do something different. It’s confusing.
Chandra: It’s hard to overcome that. I agree with you, so that happened, that whole situation with that woman. And my sister-in-law’s reaction woke me up. I had my fourth child, and we moved out of the city we lived in at the time. He was laid off. An opportunity to take a job came up for me. My youngest was three years old.
I had planned to get my career off the ground and start working towards becoming a professional engineer. I’ve been to school for that. When my kids were in school, so she, my baby, was almost there. And I thought, okay, I’ll take this job and start working. And so one day, I had borrowed his computer and searched for something. So somehow as I searched, this history came up. It basically said something like naked pictures of someone’s name, and I recognized the name.
It was actually the name of a co-worker of his. I’m so glad it was almost near the end of the day, because I could not even function. Like, I just lost my mind. The stress reaction, fight or flight, my heart started beating, and I was like, oh my gosh. All these years. After I decided to stay in the marriage during my pregnancy with my youngest, I had kept doing what I was doing. I kept playing the part and wearing the mask with him, because I didn’t know what else to do.
Discovering Pornography & Waiting For Him To Step Up
Chandra: I kept trying to be the good wife and do everything. And I realized the gig is up. I knew that I was with someone that was never going to change. I confronted him with it. When he came to pick me up. I have never screamed at someone so loud in my life. It was just all the years and years and years of pent up frustration, fear, anxiety and sadness and just all those feelings of not being good enough. And I just thought, this is ridiculous.
So I discovered the exploitative material and we went to see our clergy. I didn’t find him abusive. He was supportive. And suggested we start getting some counseling. Of course, like most people, they go for couples counseling as if it’s a couple’s problem, which it’s not. I understand that now, but at the time I didn’t know better. We arranged for some counseling.
And somehow when we went to the first session, the person didn’t show up. And I’m not sure what happened with the scheduling. But I remember thinking to myself, okay, this needs to be rescheduled. I thought the only way I’m going to know that my husband cares about this relationship. And actually wants to do something about this, is if he makes the appointment. So I stepped back, but nothing ever happened.
He didn’t set up an appointment. He did nothing. And so we continued for another year. A year later, I don’t even know why, suddenly he decided we should buy a new house. And the house we were living in had two separate units. I mean, we lived in the house as if it was one house, but there was a back area that you could rent.
I Ask If Something Is Wrong & He Says He’s Thinking Of Leaving
Chandra: And we decided to hang on to the house and rent it out. And so we bought this new house. This was in June of 2007. After the sale, we were going to be moving in a couple of months. He was working on getting tenants for the house we were living in at the time. He got a tenant for the one main part of the house, but he hadn’t gotten anybody for the back of the house. And he was acting really, really strangely. And this was in July and there was something really wrong with him.
I didn’t know what it was. I read a book called Fierce Conversations, and I thought I would put into practice something I’d learned in the book. And I asked him one night, I’m like, I’ve noticed you’re not yourself. Are you okay? Is anything wrong?
And he’s like, well, nothing is wrong. And I said, well, what would be wrong if there was something wrong? Thinking I’m using my fantastic conversation skills. And he said, oh, well, I’m thinking of leaving. And I was like.
Anne: Nothing’s wrong, but I, I hate you and our marriage is gonna end.
Chandra: Yeah, he said nothing’s wrong. And I’m like, well, what would it be if there was something wrong? And he goes, well, I’m thinking of leaving. I was like, what? This is like right before bed, and of course he goes to bed and has a nice night’s sleep. I was up all night, and I actually called his mother, and I said, “Your son just told me he wants to leave, and I have no idea why.”
Confessing The Affair Can be a tactic of Manipulation
Chandra: I asked him. I said, “Why do you want to leave? Why?” He wouldn’t tell me, didn’t even have an answer. And I just thought, well, it’s related to the exploitative material somehow. I don’t know how, but something’s not right here. And I immediately became like this anxious mess. You know, I felt like I had to get up to speak all the time. My stomach was in knots. It was exhausting.
And it went on for about two months until he finally left. But during those two months, we moved into the house. The back part of the other house is still vacant. I started to clue in that when he left, he was planning to move into the back of that house. He’d been planning this for a while, like since at least May or June.
So we moved in this brand new house. It’s beautiful. It’s everything I could ever want. But I’m sitting there going, do you actually think I’m going to pay for this myself? Because I knew I couldn’t. My job wasn’t full-time hours, and I knew I couldn’t afford the house on my own, and I thought what is he doing? And we went out and bought new furniture. He was doing all these things to set up this life.
This was supposed to be the last house. But then, he’s talking about leaving, and it just made no sense at all. And finally, he wrote a letter, and said he felt terrible. I did not deserve the way he treated me throughout the marriage. He admitted he had many problems and made a mistake when he went on a business trip to Chicago. He had slept with another woman, “made a mistake.”
The Aftermath Of The Affair, He Made A Mockery Of Our Marriage
Anne: “Made a mistake.” Just another way these abusers manipulate thier wives.
Chandra: Right, like I just, I slipped and fell into bed with her, and she landed on top of me. I mean, I don’t know, whatever. Right, he said he realized he’d made a mockery of our marriage. And that, that I didn’t deserve how he behaved. I feel silly about this now, but I remember thinking, oh good, finally. All the discussions we’ve had where I’ve tried to get him to open up. And connect with me and tell me what’s really going on with him.
He finally disclosed the truth. And now we can start working on this, fixing it, and making it right. Solve the problems. You know, I’m an engineer, I want to solve the problems, right? So, he was basically trying to get me to kick him out. And he thought if he admitted to that, I would do that.
Anne: Your story is sounding very similar to mine.
Chandra: Is it?
Anne: Yeah, because at the end, he wanted me to kick him out. I didn’t see it at the time, but looking back, it was painfully obvious. And then he could blame me for it. So he wanted to leave, but he wanted to blame me. Yeah, it’s weird. And they start acting crazy.
Chandra: Yes, yes, oh my gosh.
Anne: And then my bishop and everyone was like, Oh, you kicked him out, you did this to him, and it worked. It just went sideways with me. I don’t know how it went with you, but yeah. It’s interesting.
Chandra: Isn’t that interesting? I mean, I didn’t see it till later either, but I realize now, yeah, he didn’t want to look like the guy that left his wife and kids.
He Didn’t Want To Look Like The Bad Guy Abandoning The Family: So he manipulated the situation
Chandra: He didn’t want to be the man who abandons his family to be with an affair partner, right? He realized the letter didn’t work. Because I was still there, and I didn’t say I wanted him to leave. He wanted to manipulate me so I looked like the one who ended the marriage. And so the next thing he does is he decided to disclose everything he had done, the entire marriage to me.
One night he sits me down and says, actually, that letter I wrote you, it’s not true. And that didn’t actually happen. And by the way, I went to massage parlors and strip clubs, I was with this woman. I did that. There was this big list of things he’d done throughout the marriage. I asked him some questions and tried to get the whole story. But of course, looking back, I think how much of that was actually true?
I don’t even know, because the whole purpose was to tell me enough to kick him out. Without telling me too much, so that he wouldn’t look like the bad guy. Because one important thing he left out was the affair he was having, which no one knew about at the time. So basically, the same thing happened. I thought, oh, now I’ve got the truth. Now I know everything. Now we can start working on it. But a few days later, I realized actually nothing’s changed.
He hasn’t said we’re going to counseling now, or I’m gonna do this to fix it or that to fix it. I realized I was being fooled again, and the tension in the house was palpable, like it was so awful. And I was losing my mind. It was a terrible situation. I realized the kids probably felt it. Like, it was really, really stressful.
Asking Him To Leave & Finding Out About An Affair
Chandra: And I finally said, you’re putting us through hell. I think you should just leave. I can’t take it anymore. Like, I can’t tolerate this. And so, he practically kicked up his heels, packed a bag, and left with this big smile on his face. And I, I still didn’t know what to do. But I suspected there was another woman. I just didn’t know. I had no way to prove it. This is how abusers manipulate their victims.
So, because I wasn’t aware of anything happening at the time, I allowed him to return to the house and babysit the kids when I was at work. Okay? So, he was in the house one day, and I came home from work, and he left. And I went down to our basement where the computer was, and checked my emails, and lo and behold, he had left his emails wide open. I came across the affair had been going on for four months.
And it was the worst thing I’ve ever experienced, reading through the emails between him and her, because they totally demonized me. They criticized me and made fun of me in these emails. And, you know, I realize now it was all to justify himself. He had to feel like I was this awful person to sell it to her. And she knew he was married, and she was married too. They both left their spouses for each other.
But basically, I sent all the emails to myself, and then I sent them to him. And he thought I was gonna try to expose him. And she came from a prominent family in the community. She thought I would send it to the media. Which was funny, because I thought I would never do that.
Abusers Manipulate with Accusations & Lies
Chandra: But he accused me of hacking into his account, and she was terrified of what was going to happen.
Anne: Part of me actually does wonder if he left it open on purpose so he could accuse you of hacking into his account.
Chandra: I guess that’s possible, I know.
Anne: And also thinking it would hurt you if you found it.
Chandra: Maybe.
Anne: They enjoy that. You know? They do things that you think seem strange, but sometimes they have their own sick purposes for it. And the reason I say that, again, not knowing, right? If you feel like he didn’t do it on purpose, that’s likely at the same time. Yeah, they manipulate us on purpose to distress us.
And also to make you look crazy and to be able to accuse you of things. That does happen to other women, even if it wasn’t the case in this specific instance.
Chandra: I mean, it’s possible, but I didn’t get that sense. Like he was upset and said I’d hacked his account. And. I was like, I don’t even know how to do that, so I don’t think so, right? So, yeah, and actually, I did something. Maybe this was wrong, but I sent those emails to his parents too. To say, look, this is what happened.
Anne: I don’t think that’s ever wrong. People say it’s wrong because they don’t want to get caught.
Chandra: I wanted them to know what was happening. I didn’t want them coming back on me and accusing me of being the reason the marriage failed.
Legal Manipulation & Escalation
Chandra: A year later, when we were in court, they did that anyway. It was hard, they were so loving and good people. Also part of our faith community. It was really difficult to be treated like I was the bad guy, it didn’t happen at first. It took about a year for that to happen. Eventually, he managed manipulate them I was the reason why the marriage failed. It was really hard.
I found out about the affair. Once that came out, he became really abusive overnight. The abuse I experienced in the marriage was more lying, manipulation, and gaslighting. It would be emotional, psychological, and he was neglectful. He wouldn’t let me in beyond his thick stone walls around himself. It was more of a neglect than anything, but suddenly he became extremely, extremely verbally abusive.
To the point where I had to start getting other people to communicate with him for me. It took me a long time to wrap my head around the fact that he was not my loving husband anymore. And I would sit there and read things he sent me, or he would yell at me on the phone. And I would sit there and listen and be like, oh, you know, maybe what he’s saying is true, and etc. He was still manipulating me at this point. What happened was actually so many crazy things right after he left.
I actually lost my job because I was working on a project, a production project, that got moved to Mexico. But because I was involved in developing all the documentation for the process and the quality checks, they asked me to work in Mexico for a short period. So I negotiated a contract.
Facing Up To Supporting My Children With Job Changes
Chandra: And went down and worked in Mexico for several weeks on and off. And I had family members and members of the faith community helping me with my children. While I went down, and made enough money to keep us afloat. And in the meantime, I found a job. Unfortunately, at the time, I had so little experience. We lived in the greater Toronto area where there’s lots of work. But mostly for people who have over five years of experience as an engineer, which I didn’t have.
So his parents, who lived more than four hours north of Toronto, helped me find a job. It was in a community four hours north of Toronto. The name of the city is North Bay, and I interviewed for a design engineering role up there. They offered me the job. So I could start out and get my career launched. Because I knew from my experience in the marriage with him that he was not going to be consistent with money.
Almost immediately, he started cutting back on what he was providing. I was just hanging on to that house to keep a roof roof over me and my kids’ heads. While I waited for the school year to end and my contract in Mexico. And then to start this job north of Toronto. in a remote location, far away from all my family and friends.
I didn’t know anybody up there, but I knew I had to go take this job so that I could support my kids. Because I knew it would be a battle to get him to provide anything.
The Role Of Faith & Community
Chandra: So unfortunately, the child support has been sporadic almost the entire time we’ve been apart. And I know you call that financial abuse, and I’m actually in a court case with him right now to make another change, because my youngest turned 18.
He’s $75, 000 in arrears, and he wants to get it reduced by $50, 000. And his motion to the court is full of lies. And it’s so triggering, still 15 years later, to read the things he writes and think, this guy is lying. There was a lot of abuse. When I started cutting off communication with him, he started taking it out on the kids instead of me. Which was really difficult to watch them go through that.
Anne: Let’s pause quickly to talk about how divorce is not the solution to abuse. I am not saying don’t divorce. So please don’t get that impression listeners. Be like, Anne said, divorce is not the solution to abuse. And so ergo, I’m not going to get divorced, if you feel like you need to get divorced. I am saying when you’re married to an abuser, they have some reason to not be full on abusive. Because they don’t want you to kick them out.
Or because they want to maintain some kind of power or control. Once they realize there’s nothing they can do to groom you anymore, it’s full on abuse. And that is usually after the divorce. Or during the divorce proceedings. Now, I think that is a phase of deliverance. So as we pray for deliverance, I like to think about the story of Moses and the Hebrews escaping from Egypt.
Divorce Is Not The End Of Abuse
Anne: If you’re not religious, go with me for a minute. The first stage is Moses bringing them out of Egypt, and they’re backed up against the Red Sea. Then it’s like, Oh, what do we do? That’s the first stage, then the second stage is learning how to protect yourself from abuse. Going through the Red Sea, perhaps on dry ground. There are stages of deliverance in this.
I think that’s what the courts don’t understand. I think that’s what many people don’t understand. They think, oh, we’ll just get divorced and your abuse problems will be solved. We’re thinking, it’s not solving anything. We are still getting severely abused and manipulated after our divorces.
I don’t know if you will disagree or agree that it is exponentially better to not live with them. And to have the court have some type of protection in terms of assets and financial stuff. Even if they don’t obey it, it’s better than having them live in your house. What are your thoughts about that?
Chandra: Yeah, I would agree. Certainly, the abuse became apparent and much, much worse after he left and the affair was exposed. And I definitely noticed that he became extremely abusive. I remember thinking to myself, oh! These were all things he thought before, but never said to me, right?
And he was always building a case and blaming me, because everything was my fault, everything. He blamed everything on me. At one point, he said to me, “Oh, I’ve got 10 people who believe my side of the story.” And I’m like, there’s sides to this? I’m like, okay.
Anne: There’s one truth, buddy, but also, what, you’re like out canvassing for votes or something?
Chandra: That’s what it sounded like.
Abusers Manipulate with Continual Smear Campaign
Anne: What are you talking about?
Chandra: It sounded like he was out, you know, doing his smear campaign and building a little army of his own against me. And I thought, this is insane.
Anne: And also like tallying up the people he’s manipulated.
Chandra: And 10 people said I’m like, okay.
Anne: Crazy talk.
Chandra: I didn’t know, we were building an army like that. I will tell you, I was terrified to go to court with him. And one of the abusive things he had said to me right before I went to court was, “I will never let you divorce me. I know you want to live a celibate life outside of marriage. And so I will never let you divorce me. So you will always have to be alone.” And I was like, what did I do to deserve this, this amount of hatred from you?
Anne: And that’s insane.
Chandra: It’s insane.
Anne: You can’t do that. Like it’s not even believable.
Chandra: That’s what I thought. I thought, oh yeah, watch me, watch me. My clergy at the time was a professor in the university in my town. When I told him that I needed help finding good legal counsel, he referred me to a retired nun. They called her jaws in a dress. She had retired from being a nun.
Court With An Amazing Lawyer Fighting For My Family
Chandra: She’d become a lawyer in the family court system and was there to fight for families like mine. And she was amazing. She died of cancer after my court stuff was done. And she was a blessing, I’ve got to tell you. So she helped me fight. But before I actually started, I remember studying about the battles, and I had always wondered, what is all this stuff in the scriptures for?
And I realized as I read through all of it, oh, this is all about people who went to battle. To fight for their families, for their freedom, and for their rights. I realized I’m not doing something wrong by fighting with him. I’m doing what I need to protect my kids and family.
And I got over the whole fear and the whole like queasy feeling I had about fighting in court with him pretty quickly. Once I’d read that stuff and had that sense again to go ahead and fight. I’ve kicked his butt around the courtroom a few times because I realized I had some advantages over him.
I heard at one point the person with the most paper wins. And so I kept really, really good records, and I always came prepared. He often didn’t even have a lawyer and would try to represent himself. And was disorganized.
Court Is Exhausting, I Knew I Never Wanted Him Back
Chandra: I prevailed in most situations. He was trying to control the situation and control me, I was like, I’m not going to let this happen. I’m will be strong in my career and get to the point where he can’t do anything to control me and my kids.
Anne: It’s amazing what we can do when we believe we can and are willing to work hard. The thing that’s so hard is that we’re so overwhelmed by the abuse, and that is the point. They want to overwhelm us to win, and they want us exhausted. So that’s the part that’s so hard. It is a war.
Chandra: It’s really grueling. This is one tactic to manipulate their victims, exhaustion. I remember being so bone tired. Worse sometimes than how hard it is after you have a baby. And they’re not sleeping, and you’re not sleeping for days. But just the emotional stress you’re going through. You’ve got a broken heart, and like I just want to say, he abandoned me. That was really hard on me emotionally. Once I knew about the affair, there wasn’t a second that I thought I ever wanted him back.
After everything that had gone on, it was five years before he left me that I thought about leaving him. And just felt like I couldn’t do it at the time. I mean, looking back, I wish I had. I wish it had been me that left him, because I would have been in better shape emotionally. But, once he left, and I knew why, there wasn’t a second that I thought I wanted him back. I remember feeling, my life is a nightmare. I remember feeling like that a lot. But I didn’t actually want him back, never.
Abusers Manipulate By Hiding Who they Really ARe
Anne: Yeah, I felt the same way. And tell me if you feel this shock. At who he really is, and that I didn’t realize the extent of the evil and manipulation. I knew something was wrong the whole time. Things were crazy. . But now that I’ve been out of it, looking back and even looking now at what he’s doing now. The shock is like whoa, it’s so bad. Like it’s way worse than I ever could have imagined.
Chandra: Yeah, I remember feeling like the backdrop of my life was pulled out from under me. I felt like I had no bearings, just my sense of reality was destroyed. I remember looking back at pictures and thinking, what was going on when this was all happening?
And I was in this happy little world, in my little dream world with my kids. Thinking I had this great husband, even though I sensed there was a problem too. I didn’t realize the extent of it, like you said. And had no idea how bad it was going to get. It was scary.
Anne: Would you say on the whole in your first marriage that clergy was helpful?
Chandra: I would say yes, the bishop we had when I discovered the exploitative material was supportive of me. He was actually a mental health professional in our local hospital. We thought he might have bipolar disorder. I’m not sure. When he left, he was on medication for psychosis, bipolar disorder and depression. And I believe he had gotten all those prescriptions from our bishop. So, I found him supportive.
Church Leader’s Ridiculous Judgement
Chandra: And actually, when my first husband left, I was in the process of renewing my recommend to attend our temple. And I had completed the part with the leader of our congregation. And was ready to go into the second interview at the stake level. The person who interviewed me asked me how things were going in the family. And I said, oh, actually my husband just left our family. He stopped the interview, and said, “Oh, I can’t give you this recommend.”
And I was like, what, why not? I haven’t done anything wrong. And he said, well, we need to wait and see. I think this man was actually a divorce lawyer, and I just felt icky about that. I found out about a week later, I guess my bishop caught wind of what happened. He called that guy and said, “You need to give her her recommend. She has not done anything wrong here.” And so, they took care of it.
Anne: How creepy!
Chandra: I know. I wasn’t expecting that. It was very strange. As if somehow the whole thing was my fault. And I was crushed and destroyed. Like, in the middle of the trauma. And this guy tells me I can’t go to my place of peace. And I had done nothing wrong. I’m like, this is ridiculous.
Anne: That is absolutely ridiculous. I’m so sorry. Chandra and I had to actually pause the conversation, because I needed to help my kids. So next week, she’s going to talk about how this transitions into her second marriage with an abuser, and what happened there. So stay tuned.
How To Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing – Claire’s Story
Aug 08, 2023
How to know if my abusive husband is changing? Perhaps like Claire, you hope he can change.
A man who is changing will consistently reject misogyny.
This means that he will:
Not expect or ask others to cook, clean, or “take care” of him.
Not expect, ask for, or coerce you or others for sex.
Clean up after himself and others, taking on household and yard tasks without being prodded, asked, or encouraged.
Avoid organizations and situations where misogyny and patriarchy are systemically significant.
Reject patriarchal leadership roles.
Forfeit financial control and take proactive steps to learn how to have a mutual financial partnership
Heathly Men Don’t Exploit Women
Healthy men don’t use exploitative material, period. They understand that it is exploitative and abusive to the victims in the industry, as well as destructive to their wives and themselves.
It’s NOT a “temptation” to a healthy man. It’s a no-brainer. If your husband is truly changing, he has done the work to understand the exploitative nature of the industry.
The effects that his use has had on you and your family. And he will never return to it. Not even once. A healthy man respects your right to make decisions, large and small. He understands that he has zero right to make demands on your time, body, and energy. He gives you space. But you’re not a mind-reader and abusers are VERY good at mimicking these healthy behaviors. So how to know if my husband is changing?
At BTR.ORG, we know it can be dangerous to live in close proximity to an abuser who claims to be changing. If you’re invested in staying married to the abuser, believing he is willing and capable of change.
Transcript: How Do I Know If My Abusive Husband’s Changing?
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Claire. Claire and I are from the same faith background. We’ll be talking about some particular programs specific to our faith, but it will relate. Because a lot of you have been through programs similar to this. Either faith based or secular programs, or maybe 12 step programs. As always, all faiths, all paradigms are welcome here.
So no matter what your faith or paradigm is, if you’d like to share your story. Email me at podcast@btr.org. We want to help you know if my husband is changing.
So Claire, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?
Claire: Not at all. I went into the marriage thinking it was going to be equal. Not knowing anything about intimacy and what’s normal. We just had our 25th anniversary. The abuse is mainly coercion and covert emotional abuse.
He wants to look like the good guy. And so I had put in a lot of effort. This is the whole like love, serve, forgive thing, like our whole marriage. Trying to be a good person and learn how to communicate. And I had been listening to some podcasts about intimacy and how it should be for both people. I was really frustrated with that, because I felt like it’s a true principle. That marriage and intimacy are supposed to be for both people, but it still wasn’t working, and I could not see why.
Anne: Did his coercion involve using exploitative material? While giving you the impression that he was a faithful Christian man?
The Role Of Faith & Misconceptions Of Abuse
Claire: So this is actually my main frustration with our church’s addiction recovery program. They want to tell you that marriage is hard work, That he did tell me about the use one year into marriage. But he felt entitled to it. On the podcast, you said this is abuse, and I was like, no, I totally didn’t believe you. I was like, he’s like needy. And then I listened to one of your podcasts about, emotional abuse. I was just completely blown away. How to know if my abusive husband will change is so important.
This is the part that I feel is super important, because it took me a little bit of information to see the pattern. Like all I needed to know, abuse is a pattern of control based on entitlement. Emotional abuse is just a tool that is part of domestic abuse. And the whole thing with, like, abusers typically looking like they’re charming. They’re the ones that look good, and they’re the ones that show up for service projects.
That the one being abused is more likely to look crazy. And I’m like, hey, that’s me. And yeah, so that kind of blew me out of the water. But it was still like anyone seeing my husband, he’s like very good natured and jolly. It was rare for him to say things that would look abusive or where you could figure it out. But he feels like, yeah, he’s entitled to it as much as he wants.
It’s like, I’m this toy on a shelf. He idolizes me, but I’m not a person. So I can’t have bad feelings against him. I can’t put space between us. If I want to go to activities when he’s not working, he’ll pout. But if I’m reading a book around him, he’s not okay with that.
How To Know If My Abusive Husband will Changing: He’ll Treat You Like An Equal (& Reject Misogyny)
Claire: Interrupting someone when they’re reading a book. That’s not a big deal. The big deal is that you shouldn’t be doing that. The trying to control.
Anne: I’m entitled to your attention rather than, I know you’re reading this book, but I would really like your attention., yeah.
Claire: Yeah, but that’s being equals, right? So the coercion looked like if we hadn’t had it for 48 hours, then he would start criticizing me. And just like pouting, frowning, and being toxic until we did. I had read the LaHaye book, the act of marriage. And also in any marriage books or church materials. The whole love, serve, forgive, don’t be critical.
In the first year, I didn’t know that he was addicted. I was so sincere, trying really hard to have a good marriage, I wondered is marriage meant to be this hard? And I couldn’t see or understand what was going on. In all the things I read, there was nothing about like hey, love, serve, and forgive.
https://youtube.com/shorts/jf3qujhSwdk
But if you see these red flags, like if you’re bringing up concerns and the person doesn’t listen. Or sincerely take it seriously. Or if you have someone lying to you, there was nothing in the materials that said anything like that. They don’t tell you that lying is emotionally abusive. And I don’t think that’s just our church. That’s something I’m really angry about. And I think that’s a huge deal. Like, especially if you’re saying that you care about marriage that’s supposed to last forever, let’s actually try to have a relationship that’s heavenly.
Anne: How to know if my husband is changing? Guess what they never talk about. I don’t think any religion does. I’ve just thought of this. So this is like an epiphany for me. Are you guys ready for this? Here we go.
The Need To Know How To Know If My Husband Is Changing: The Church’s Oversight on Spousal Abuse
Anne: No one ever talks about. What would a hell marriage look like? No one’s like, this type of marriage is a marriage made in hell. And you would be in hell if you lived in it, and that is abuse and you do not want this type of marriage. They never talk about that. Or how to know if my abusive husband is actually changing.
Claire: I read the most recent handbooks and stuff. They’ll say abusers tend to be people you know, and they list parents, sibling, uncle, but they never say, spouse. Even the patterns of abuse, it’s more like child molester, predator, grooming, but they never say spouse. They have lists of red flags and yellow flags that you look for when you’re dating, like things to know before getting engaged. But I’m like, why do you stop looking for that when you’re married?
I think the focus on we’re just going to preserve the marriage as an institution, instead of helping people have healthy marriages. And if that was your focus, wouldn’t you teach about red flags and abuse patterns more specifically? You need to if you abusive husband can change.
Anne: This is James 1:27, Religion that God, our Father, accepts as pure and faultless, to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. That’s interesting that the world part pollutes, because abusers also believe and manipulate them. Here’s the new living translation: pure and genuine religion in the sight of God. The Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress, and refusing to let the world corrupt you.
The Unspoken Truths About Marriage
Anne: So meaning like actually saying the truth. The truth is, this man is abusive, and this woman needs help, and she’s going to need help in the form of maybe food or housing.
Claire: We talk about helping the defenseless. And if you’re in an abusive marriage and you can’t see it, that’s where I was at for more than two decades. And that’s a very vulnerable place to be in.
Anne: Yeah, being abused and not knowing you’re being abused.
Claire: Yeah, and I was sincerely reading all these communication things and marriage books.
Anne: Yeah, I did the same thing for seven years. I did addiction recovery, where I like needed help, help. I need help. And going to all these therapists and clergy. And no one for seven years says abuse.
Claire: Yeah. That’s why I feel so frustrated. Yeah, especially when we knew that he had a problem the first year. And that’s what I love from you was the whole compulsive entitled sexuality and the lying.
That’s one of the huge things where you guys have rocked my world. Was the whole if you are lying about pornography, besides that, just if you’re lying in general, you’re not safe. But if you’re lying about it, then it’s abuse, because you’re not allowing her consent.
The Power of Truth & Consequences
Claire: And I read this quote yesterday, lying is about controlling someone else’s reality, hoping that what they don’t know won’t hurt you. And what it means to tell the truth is to give someone else her freedom, to allow her to have a reaction, even if it leads to negative consequences for you, to give her the voice that lying takes away.
Anne: That is so good. There’s a church talk, it’s one of my favorites, by one of our apostles, who is now, passed away. But he tells this story about how he loved football. And he had the football, and he was just like two inches away from the end zone. The whole pile was on top of him, and he could push the football a little more, and no one would ever know.
And I don’t know what happened in that game, if they won or not. One of the things he said was, tell the truth and let the consequences happen. Because you can’t alter God’s reality. He knows what it is. Essentially lying is also trying to, what, alter it for God? Like, that’s not gonna work. So anyway, I’ve always thought that, like, tell the truth and accept what the consequence of the truth is. Even if it’s not good for you.
Claire: Yeah, that’s the emotional immaturity going along with abuse. That you can’t handle someone else thinking you’re bad or seeing something bad that you’ve done. Then you lie to other people about your intentions or what you’ve done, so you can keep hiding. And you don’t know if he will change.
Misinterpretations & Misguided Help
Anne: So while you’re reading these communication books, what reasons did you give for his behavior? Just that he needed it, what did you think at the time?
Claire: I didn’t think it was control coming out of entitlement. I thought he was like hangry, like when you’re fasting. And I thought he was being a little bit bratty. And I also thought it was my job to manage him. So I would try to placate him before he would be a jerk.
Anne: So like, if I am intimate with him like right now.
Claire: 48 to 72 hours, then we won’t fight, and I can avoid the drama and all that. Because he’s going to get hangry, and then he’s going to get grouchy. And I just didn’t see that it was a choice. I’ve kind of operated like a robot. I didn’t know if my abusive husband would change.
Anne: Even if you feel like you’re choosing it. Would you choose that if you knew the truth? Well, there are moments where I wanted to. He was grooming me. And so I thought he was very loving. And then later I find out, wait, had I known he had used the day before and lied to my face. I would not have wanted it. I thought he was changing.
Claire: Yeah.
How To Know If My Abusive Husband has Changed: He Will NEVER Go Back To Pornography Use
Anne: So you attended your church’s addiction recovery program, which is a program for wives of addicts. Talk about your experience with that.
Claire: So, initially, I loved going to the meetings because I was a hermit. I didn’t have any friends, because I wasn’t taking care of myself. So this was like the only time I was talking to women. But, the main thing I am upset about is that they didn’t teach that lying is abuse. When they said women whose husbands use have PTSD symptoms. I felt like seen in that. I felt like, oh, like I feel super stressed out, but that’s normal.
So it did like take a weight off of me. But at the same time, it was like, oh, has he really changed. Because I feel like he’s cheating on me. When he’s looking at exploitative material, but he’s not. So it’s like this illogical emotional response.
Anne: Wait, so they told you you’re logical because you feel like he’s cheating on you. But we’re telling you no, this isn’t cheating.
Claire: I don’t know if they taught that or that’s what I got out of it. So like, that is not safe. So you don’t feel safe. And you have these PTSD symptoms because you’re actually not safe. So like, your feelings are legitimate. And that was a huge piece missing. I was like, why don’t you teach that lying is abuse and you’re actually not safe?
Anne: Also, what is the PTSD from? It’s from abuse. It’s not from, “pornography.” It’s from the whole system of coercive control. They’re not saying you have PTSD from abuse because you’re being abused.
Entitlement Attitude, Lying & Abusive Behaviors
Claire: It’s so interesting. If you had someone who was using, but they weren’t lying about it. You would still feel scared because they’re doing something that’s demeaning to women. To me, it seems like I feel at least 80 percent safer, because if you’re telling me, I know what’s happening. That’s the piece I didn’t see until you split that out for me, that the lying is part of the abuse.
Anne: Yeah, I see this a lot with victims, and I want to say, like, beware of this. They’ll be like, yeah, he was using, and then he says he stopped, and he didn’t use for a while. I’m like, who said he wasn’t using for a while? And how do you know that?
There is literally no way for us to know that they’re not using except for their behavior. So when women say to me, they stopped using, but they were still angry. I’m like, if a user says I’ve stopped, but their behavior is still the same. There’s literally no reason to believe they’ve stopped. And even if they have, who cares?
Claire: Even if they stop, they already have an entitlement attitude. Like I’m entitled to women, and women should show up like this. And then you’re watching, which has abuse, besides being demeaning to women in general. If they stop using it, they still have abusive behaviors that they learned from it.
The whole attitude of being entitled towards women is the source of abuse. So even if they stopped using, you’re likely to still have the abusive behaviors after the fact. If they stopped in the first place.
The Need For Abuse Education
Anne: My goal in life is that whenever any woman finds out, her husband uses. And it is a surprise to her. Or finds out he’s been lying or an affair. That’s the first thing they learn before they even think about pornography addiction recovery. Before they even think about love languages or men’s needs, anything like that, is that they learn about abuse. Because once you learn about abuse, you realize all that other stuff is ridiculous.
If you learn about abuse first, and then you learn about addiction recovery, it’s like, this is ridiculous. If you learn about abuse first, and then you learn about men’s “needs,” you’re like, that is ridiculous. The abuse education helps you dismiss all the misogynistic, societal, religious, exploitative privileges that men have. Because it’s systemic. If you’re educated about abuse, it’s easier to dismiss all the nonsense from all the different places.
Claire: Well, and you’re going to see it. Whereas you probably wouldn’t If you were just thinking about the it. Then you wouldn’t see the other patterns because it’s pervasive.
Anne: I remember being like, okay, he’s abusive, but I don’t want my family to fall apart. So what am I supposed to do? Okay, I’ll just live in abuse, I guess. Because I don’t want to get divorced. I remember I went through, I don’t know, a month or two of realizing he was abusive. And then thinking, can I call it something else? Can I do something about, you know? So I think that’s why it’s so heart wrenching to find out you’re a victim.
The Birth Of BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop
Anne: When I went through it, no one taught me effective ways to set boundaries in this situation. Everyone I went to just made it worse. So through prayer, pondering, and experimentation, I discovered strategies that work. Then I tested them on myself, and they worked well. And other women tried them out, and they were like, these work.
So then I wrote the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to teach every woman these strategies. We’ve seen over and over again, these strategies work. They work to help women see their husband’s true character. It gives women enough space, both in their head and physical space, to determine what his true character is, and if he has changed.
Anne: Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here, and we’ve got awesome online BTR.ORG Group Sessions every day. We have podcasts and workshops to help women. But I always think about the Israelites, God parted the Red Sea. I see that as education about abuse. So when you finally are educated about abuse, that’s like God parting the Red Sea for you, but you have to walk through. You have to start walking, and no one else will start walking it for you.
Claire: Yeah, I feel like the community, like the BTR.ORG Group, has someone believing you is validating. I feel like that’s essential, because you already feel like it’s shocking and disorienting.
They can’t take the actions for you, but that emotional support for me has been vital. Because I’m like, am I seeing this clearly? I feel like I am, that’s been super, super helpful for me. And I was like, holy crap. My whole life. Where was this information 24 years ago?
How To Know If My Abusive Husband will Change: He’ll Respect Your Autonomy
Anne: That’s why I started it because we’re the same age and there was nothing.
Claire: There wasn’t anything.
Anne: I knew there was nothing because I’d worked in the addiction recovery industrial complex for years. And so I knew they weren’t making abuse the central issue. It was like, oh, and then he might be abusive on the side, and I think it is the central issue.
Claire: Yeah, and for me, I don’t care about it anymore. I don’t even care, like, can you please stop trying to control me? Like, let me make my own choices, don’t gaslight me, don’t blame shift me. It’s been the emotional abuse, especially since it’s been so covert. That’s been destructive to me. And I feel like, yeah, can you please expose that so that women can move on with their lives?
Because when you focus on the addiction, it’s like all the focus is on the use. And that he’s like this victim, and he’s struggling, and the focus isn’t on the wife getting safety for her. She is just focused on how to help him change. Just please empower me, exactly. There’s no way I would’ve seen it. I’ve been to a therapist who couldn’t see it. So there’s no way me, as a young wife, there’s no way I’m gonna understand.
That’s what I wanted. I want information. I want the 20 year old me. I’m sure there are thousands and thousands of women just to have that piece of information. This is abuse. And then she can figure things out herself, and she can learn and set boundaries, to find out for herself if he is capable of changing.
Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing by Useing the Living Free Strategies
Claire: Because he didn’t change at all. Even with all the information, we were having all these discussions. And he’s, I love you so badly. And I want to do all these things until I was like, I’m done. Yeah, and that’s what those Living Free Strategies are for, to help women determine if their abusive husband is changing.
Anne: I’m so glad they helped you, Claire. I’m so grateful that you shared your story today. Thank you!
Claire: Thank you.
Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? The Dangerous Ways The Media Portrays Abusers
Aug 01, 2023
Have you ever read a news article that describes a domestic abuser as a “good guy”. Can an abuser be a good person, really? Jane Gilmore, award winning journalist from Australia, talks with Anne Blythe, M.Ed. about how media coverage of domestic abuse doesn’t help victims recognize the truth.
Anne: I’m honored to have Jane Gilmore on today’s episode. She’s an author and award-winning journalist. And has a master of journalism degree from the University of Melbourne. Welcome Jane.
Jane: Thank you, lovely to be here.
Anne: I’ve invited Jane to talk about news stories, movies and TV and how the media portrays domestic abuse. When it comes to journalism, I’ve had some personal experience with this, because my friend, Leah Moses’s son, was murdered by her ex-husband, and Leah asked me to be the spokesperson for her in the immediate aftermath of that event.
And so I was on the news quite a bit. If you go to our YouTube channel Betrayal Trauma Recovery, you can see I’ve created a playlist for that. It’s called Betrayal Trauma Recovery in the news. A lot of the news outlets at that time, all of them actually reported it as a murder suicide, but they didn’t talk about abuse at all. Most reports said this murderer was a respected psychologist. They interviewed people who knew him, who said the abuser was a good person.
Knowing Leah’s story, he was one of the most abusive people. There were multiple DCFS reports for the welfare of her children. Police called multiple times. This was a classic domestic abuse situation. Why would any reporter put in print that an abuser is a good person? So the question of, can a murderer be a good person? Why is that even a question? Parth Gandhi was a murderer. He murdered his son.
There’s no more proof. Like if murdering your own son isn’t proof that you’re an abuser. There’s never enough proof for them, not in the media, not in the courts. Not anywhere.
The Impact Of Media On Society’s Perception
Anne: Instead, they said, it was the result of a prolonged legal battle. And some reports suggested that due to the prolonged legal battle, he was so upset or frustrated, it led to a breakdown. Rather than both the prolonged custody battle and the murder were due to his abuse. This is one of the things that can happen when fighting a narcissist for custody. So Jane, let’s talk about how the media reporting of abuse cases shapes society’s perception of abuse and abuse victims.
Jane: We had a case a few years ago where a man killed his wife, his daughter, and his three grandchildren. I think the youngest was three, and he was reported as a loving father. It was just obscene.
It developed this huge debate in Australia about journalists calling abusers goog people. I swear to you, debating whether it’s okay to call a man who killed his wife, his child, and his grandchildren a good guy. And women in Australia were just like, I’m sorry, what? He’s just killed his family. Of course, he’s not a good guy.
Anne: Why were they arguing for it?
Jane: Because one of the things journalists will do after something like that happens is they’ll interview people in the community. Like people in his church, people in his sports group, or people on his football team. And somebody inevitably will say, Oh, but he was such a great guy. They weren’t married to him or living with him.
They saw him once a week where he’s doing that good guy act. And that was all they ever saw. And journalists will say, well, it’s a legitimate thing to report because somebody said it. People used to say Ted Bundy was a great guy. Clearly he was not.
Jane: Or just because you can find somebody who says he was. It doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s not like journalists are sitting somewhere stroking a white cat and thinking of ways to excuse the terrible things that some men do to women. A lot of it happens without them knowing it. Particularly when it’s men that journalists feel similar to. If journalists can make sure that, it’s some other, he’s not a good guy like me.
He’s nothing like me, my friends, and the men I know. He’s the balaclava clad stranger that jumps out of the bushes at you. But most types of exploitation and abuse aren’t from strangers. Then that’s okay. But if it’s, and often is, somebody they think, Oh, that could be my friend. That could be my brother or even worse. That could be me. They’ve got to find a way to make it either not his fault. The abuser is such a good person who just snapped or she drove him to it.
Because it is so hard to believe that men we love, respect, and care about. Men who are our friends, our family, or our colleagues can be abusive.
Jane: But I can guarantee you, if you know, 10 men, you know, a man who has been abusive to a woman.
Anne: Yes.
Jane: And that is sometimes hard to face. It’s almost like it’s a not all men thing, they’re not defending all men. They’re defending themselves. Not all men are abusive. What they’re saying is you’re talking about me, and I’m not like that.
Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? The Reality Of Abusive Relationships
Jane: I find the ones that are the most defensive about that are the ones I’m looking at going, why does this matter so much to you? Why are you getting so angry about this? But that need to say about the abuser it’s not his fault, he’s a good person, he just snapped. He just lost control for a moment, but he’s actually a good guy. Is about saying men are not responsible for these things. Women drive us to it. And until we can all say, we are all responsible for our own choices.
I may not control how I feel, but I can control what I do. And if you pick up a gun and shoot somebody, that is a choice. And the only person responsible for that is you. If you get really angry and go, I’m going to go to the gym and have a session with a punching bag, or I’m going to run and run and run until I almost vomit, or I’m going to talk to my friends and let it all out. They’re all choices. Or I’m so angry that I’m going to hurt somebody, that is equally a choice.
Anne: Yeah, right now, the Addiction Recovery Industrial Complex likes to make the cause shame. He felt shame, he used pornography. Or because he felt shame, he had an affair. And I’m like, you know what? I feel shame, and I eat ice cream. What are you talking about? There are so many options. Shame has nothing to do with it. That’s not the cause of him choosing it. The cause of the abuse was his choice, he’s not a good person. They do good things to manipulate.
Patterns Of Abusive Behavior
Jane: And particularly with something like that, where it’s an ongoing choice. It’s not just that he chose it once, he’s choosing it again and again. And then he’s choosing to lie about it. And then he’s choosing to do it again, and then he’s choosing to lie about it again. That’s a pattern of behavior. You often don’t realize when you’re in that situation, because it’s like the frog in the boiling water.
It starts slowly, and you don’t realize it’s happening. You look back and think, how did I become this person where I feel responsible? Because my husband is gambling or drinking or watching or cheating. It’s my fault I’m doing something wrong. So I’m going to try and change so he will be better.
Anne: Many women have seen Sleeping With the Enemy or Safe Haven. So, they think this is what abuse looks like. He’s going to be screaming in her face, spitting, punching walls and locking her in her bedroom. Why do you think we don’t see depictions of emotional and psychological abuse often in the media? And I have also noticed that women depict psychological abuse, like in Gone Girl.
Jane: Remember that most of the media is controlled by men. So they’re not going to show these things from a woman’s point of view. They want to show a nuanced view of oh, but maybe he is a good person. Because they don’t understand it, and don’t want to.
Psychological Abuse In The Media
Jane: It’s not like there’s a huge crew of powerful white men in the media in any country in the world going. Let’s make women aware of the manipulations men do to keep them under control. So they don’t show the sort of things that are really corrosive, but not obvious. I remember talking to a woman who told me her husband could look at her, and she would be so overcome by fear and insecurity.
She said, I couldn’t think straight. Because all he would do was look at me. Once a year or so, he would do something terrifying. And then for the rest of that year, all he’d have to do to remind her, to put her back into that space of terror, was just give her that look. And what do you do? Do you go to the police and say, well, he looked at me like, right?
Anne: That’s right, absolutely. Can an abuser be a good person? When they want something, they can. Well, and that’s what’s really difficult for women in court cases. When they’re trying to say, look at these messages he’s sending me, they’re so abusive. And the court looks at them and they’re like, what are you talking about? To outsiders, it seems normal. But it’s not.
https://youtube.com/shorts/7_ZAkeOtE2s
Jane: Yeah. I’ll never forget that woman. Because most of the time certainly to outsiders, he seemed like a good guy and had he killed her. And I honestly wouldn’t have surprised me if he had eventually. Journalists would have gone to his friends afterwards and said, what was he like? And they would have said he was such a good guy. And then the journalist would have reported it that way.
Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? Challenges In Recognizing Emotional Abuse
Jane: But this was a man who terrorized his wife, never physically hurting her. Just making sure that she always knew that he was the one in charge, that she had to obey him, placate him, be wary of him. And be stepping around his feelings all the time and looking after him. He would just sit back and not have to do anything. And it was so hard for her to explain to anyone what he was doing, or why she was so miserable. Or why she couldn’t leave, because it wasn’t obvious.
I’m not here to make a lot of excuses for the media, but that kind of manipulation is hard to show in a one and a half hour movie. Because it builds up over time. It’s about how it starts, then it stops, and then he’s sweet, then he’s cold. He’s lying, but all you’ve got is a gut feeling, You’re not sure what to do with it. And that constant back and forth and back and forth exhausting, unsettling weirdness is hard to show in a movie. Any woman who’s been in that will instantly recognize it.
And this is where women have the power to talk to each other. Because if I talk to a woman who’s in that, and I say, like when you wake up at three in the morning and feel sick. And your brain’s just spinning, spinning, spinning, and you’re trying to work out what’s going on. Am I crazy that I’m imagining this? Is he right? But I feel like this, but I don’t know what to do. And I’m too scared to tell anyone. Because I’m going to feel like a fool. An abuser can act like be a good person.
Support Systems For Abuse Victims
Jane: Any woman in that relationship will be, yes, I’ve done that so many times. It’s familiar, because the patterns of abuse are familiar. When we start sharing it, we can instantly recognize those stories.
Anne: Yeah, women find so much support and validation in a group, like our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. If you’re listening and relate to this. That’s such a great place to start. Talking with women who can validate your experience, because in terms of the media, it surrounds us all the time.
We might not recognize all the manipulation not to recognize abuse. Because an abuser can act like a good person. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
Jane: I think it’s huge. We underestimate how much the things we don’t notice influence us. The most dangerous ideas are the ones that we don’t notice. The idea that women are responsible for abusive things that men do. How many headlines have you seen about the jealous lover, the jilted husband?
Anne: Even if they just say they were having an argument. As if the two of them were causing the problem, and it just ended badly. The abuser can make himself look like a good guy.
Jane: Yeah, cheating wife is common in a headline. And it’s all about saying that men aren’t responsible for what they do when they get angry or lose control of their emotions. Men can’t be held responsible for the actions they commit, because it’s women that drive them to it.
It happens a lot in headlines, but also in other kinds of media, like TV shows, movies, and video games, that we consume all the time, where you don’t even really notice it.
The Double Standards In Self-Defense
Jane: Once you’ve seen something, you can’t unsee it. When you start to look for it, suddenly it’s almost everywhere. Women are responsible for men’s choices. We drive them to it. We make them so angry, so jealous that they just lose control and then it’s our fault.
But actually, if you think about it, the reverse would never be true. And it’s not true. On the rare occasions that women commit violence, and it happens. They’re monsters. They’re evil. There is no excuse. But we don’t talk about men in the same way.
Anne: That’s evident with self defense. For example, if another man comes into another man’s house and shoots the guy in self defense. Everyone’s like, yeah, self defense, no problem. But if a woman is being raped and shoots him, people are like, she committed murder. Apparently some people think an abuser can be a good person.
Jane: Oh, definitely, absolutely. If a man kissed another man, like a sexual kiss, and the man being kissed punched him in the face. Most people, yeah, sure.
If a man wants to kiss a woman who didn’t want to be kissed, and she reacted with violence. Whoa, why are you like that? If you reverse it and go, would that still make sense? If a woman is being attacked, and she fights back, and she’s to blame for fighting back. Violence is always a choice, no matter what you’re told. Violence is always a choice.
If the person who made that choice is not responsible for it, in the way it’s depicted, then something’s a bit off. And then again, you reverse it and you put a woman in that situation. Would she be held responsible for making that choice? Yes, she would.
Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? Violence As A Choice
Jane: Would you ever say, a woman who forced sex on a man had no choice? He flirted with her, was wearing tight little pants and was smiling and winking at her. He drove her to it, and she was so overcome by lust that what else could she do? It sounds ridiculous when you put it like that, right?
Anne: Right.
Jane: That kind of thing would be, well, yeah, that can happen. Men lose control of themselves. And if she flirted with him and teased him, and wore a skimpy little top and showed off, well, what did she think was going to happen? He flirted with her, took his t-shirt off. He showed off all his muscles. What did he think was going to happen? It’s so ridiculous that it’s almost funny.
If you can do that juxtaposition and it becomes ridiculous, then you know that something is going wrong there because women are not responsible for men’s choices. We have to stop infantilizing men. Adult men are as responsible for their choices as adult women.
Think about how they behave in front of other people? Almost 99% of the time, an abusive man is not violent emotionally or physically in front of other people. He does it in private, which means he can control it, which means it’s a choice.
Anne: When he wants to, he can act very loving, he can act very caring, an abuser can act like a good person. So he knows how to do it.
Jane: Yeah, when we’re talking about the media talking about violent or abusive men. It’s done through crime and court reporting. Somebody’s been arrested, in court, charged, the police are investigating. The court process is based on this idea of innocent until proven guilty.
The Presumption Of Innocence In Relationships
Jane: I would never want to mess with that, because it’s so important when you’ve got the power of the state against a single individual, you need to have some way of balancing that power. And that’s why we have the presumption of innocence. But that’s in a court setting, and the reason we have that presumption of innocence is because the state can incarcerate you. But in a relationship, that’s not what you’re talking about.
You’re talking about two people who should be equal, so the presumption of innocence doesn’t apply there. You’re not talking about the entire power of the state, the police, the DA, and all the people who can investigate and punish you. So the presumption of innocence assumes the man is innocent and the woman is lying. That’s bad in a court situation. It’s necessary, but bad. And any victim who’s been in court will tell you that assumption means we’re assuming you’re lying.
So all I need to do is get reasonable doubt about whether you’re lying. So I need to make you a liar. And all this is reported that way in the media. He’s innocent until he’s proven guilty. She’s probably lying, and that’s the basis of all this reporting. And then that translates into relationships. I’m innocent until you’ve proven I’m guilty. You’re probably lying. So all I need to do is convince you or other people that you’re lying, or that there’s even a possibility that you’re lying.
And therefore, that means I’m innocent. And that doesn’t work. It’s not about proving something. It’s about how I feel. I feel scared, unsure, and insecure. I feel like I can’t trust you, like I’m not safe with you. Abusers are good at manipulating people into thinking they are a good guy.
Expertise Of Abuse Victims
Jane: Because you don’t need to prove how you feel.
Anne: Another issue with the media, I actually experienced it frequently. Victims are apparently not experts about abuse. That male therapists or male social workers or someone male is an expert. She just thinks she’s an expert, because she’s talked to all these women yada, yada, yada, they’re just yakking.
But these women don’t understand abuse, and they’re actually endangering true abuse victims. Who are apparently some nebulous category of victims who aren’t us. I’ve heard that quite a bit. Can you talk about how the media dismisses that abuse victims are the most expert on abuse?
Jane: Yeah, it’s based on that idea that women lie and can’t be trusted. Because abusers are good at looking like a good person. That permeates much of the culture. Women lie about abuse, to get custody of their kids, to turn people against him, and for all kinds of reasons. Actually, the people who are doing this work, who are there on the front lines, say it almost never happens. It’s not that it never happens. But 99% of the time, if a woman tells you she’s being abused, she’s been afraid and ashamed to tell somebody for a long time.
And when she finally comes out with it, it’s a big deal. She’s doing it because she’s reached the point where she can’t not anymore. I think what’s happening when the media depicts that like women just make those claims up all the time, and it’s really easy. It is not easy. You talk to any woman in an abusive relationship, and she will tell you how hard it is to tell someone else what’s going on. It’s excruciatingly difficult.
Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? The Amber Heard & Johnny Depp Case
Jane: Think about the options. If a woman tells you that a man is abusing her, you can believe her and be wrong, or you can not believe her and be wrong. And if believing her and being wrong just means you say, I believe you. Do you want to talk about it? What help do you need? Like, where’s the harm in that?
But if she’s finally told you the truth and you say, oh, I don’t believe you, because he’s such a good guy. There’s a lot of harm in that. So that belief that women would lie about it, Amber Heard and Johnny Depp, was where I saw that just explode.
Anne: Yeah, that was insane.
Jane: That belief she was lying, and I was looking at that just going. What do you think she’s getting from this? Look at what’s happening to this woman. She is being eviscerated by billions of people online, for nothing.
Anne: They kept saying like, she’s doing it for like attention or something. I was like, no, she does not want to be doing this right now. When people automatically think you’re lying, they believe the abuser can be good.
Jane: Nobody wants billions of people coming after you online. If you’ve ever been on the receiving end of an online storm. It’s awful. People say, oh, just turn your phone off, sure, okay. There are five people in a room right next to you, and they’re talking about you. Walk away, don’t stand there, and try and hear what they’re saying. It’s not good. It’s not right. You know, it’s damaging, but it’s human.
Public Perception & Misogyny
Jane: As much as you can say, I will just turn my phone off. Don’t participate in the world, hide yourself from the world. What’s going on with that? Should women hide themselves from the world because a man’s abusing them?
That idea that billions of people say things about you. And after coming out of an abusive relationship, you have the strength, you have the confidence to say, well, it doesn’t matter what people say about me. I know who I am. I think it’s asking a lot of a woman who’s coming out of an abusive relationship to immediately have that kind of strength.
Anne: Well, and then just be abused by everybody.
Jane: Yeah.
Anne: And apparently it’s impossible to be believable. There’s always a reason not to be believed. And to believe that the abuser is a good person.
Jane: Yeah, it’s the perfect victim myth. We’re going to keep moving the hoops, and we’re going to keep those hoops on fire. We’re going to have five of them, and you’ve got to jump through all five.
Anne: Right, because Amber Heard’s human, she’s not perfect.
Jane: Yeah.
Anne: Every little thing, or even big thing, that she’s done that wasn’t great. That maybe she shouldn’t have done was apparently evidence that she wasn’t abused. I’m like, no, no, no. It was awful. We even had so-called abuse experts, which really bothered me to come out and say, in this case, she’s the abuser. Did you hear so-called abuse experts saying that?
Secondary Abuse By The Court
Jane: Yeah, that case was so huge and all over the world. It always astounded me that the court case in the UK was not a jury, but a judge found he was abusive, sexually, emotionally, and physically abusive. That one was kept very quiet, and that one disappeared out of the media almost immediately. Oh, he’s guilty, oh, let’s not talk about that. But then suddenly we’ve got all these people saying she’s a liar, and it’s her fault, and he’s just a poor victim.
That went global. And again, it comes back to the idea that too many men can see themselves in it. Not all men by any means, but too many men know that there have been times when they have not been good to the women in their lives. And have made her responsible for the bad choices they’ve made. And it almost seemed like the people who were defending Johnny Depp were not defending him. They were defending themselves.
Not his fault, meant it’s not my fault. She’s a liar, and was not necessarily talking about Amber Heard. They were talking about the women who said. You did the same thing. You’re lying, making it up. You’re just trying to get attention, because apparently having the whole world hate you is the thing that most women want.
Anne: No one recognized, which was bothering me, how everyone was how abusing an abuse victim, abused by the court. So she’s experiencing these multiple, multiple levels of trauma, extreme trauma. And they’re just thinking, oh, it’s just her court case, rather than this is torture. The abuser gets away with everyone thinking he is a good person.
Jane: And it was deliberate. He chose that.
Anne: Yeah, to punish her.
Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? Even Other Victims Didn’t Believe Her
Jane: Yeah, they didn’t go to court by accident. He chose that. That choice was part of the abuse.
Anne: Absolutely, You can see the court system believing the abuser is a good person.
Jane: And it’s really, really, really common for abusive men to use the court process and the police as part of their abuse.
Anne: Absolutely, yeah, that was disturbing. When I would say to other so-called abuse experts, excuse me, and they’d be like, no, it’s obvious that she’s the abuser in this case. I just, I don’t know, it was very hard, obviously much harder for Amber Heard. Clearly, we have a big TikTok following and a big Instagram following, and we did a video in support of Amber. And I don’t know if we’ve ever gotten so much hate from victims, from listeners.
And I thought, what? You’re having a hard time because people won’t believe you. And then you won’t believe her. It showed that societal misogyny is so thick that even victims themselves have a hard time seeing through it.
Jane: As you say, victims of abuse, women who have been abused themselves said, no, no, no, she’s the abuser. It took me by surprise how many women were so angry about her. I was trying to work out what it was. Because I was really disturbed by the way many women responded.
And I think they couldn’t see themselves in her. She looks like this couldn’t happen to her. She looks like she’s got power and choices, and she could have just walked away. And they forget that that kind of abuse can genuinely happen to anyone. Just because she’s successful, rich, and beautiful doesn’t mean she’s not a person.
Abuse Of Powerful Women
Jane: And although abusers often deliberately prey on vulnerable women. They will search for women that they can manipulate. Wealth and beauty, and youth don’t protect you from that. Because those techniques of abuse and the manipulations that an abuser will use to make you feel small and weak, helpless and responsible. They work on anyone.
Anne: Some abusers intentionally seek out powerful women to abuse, because they’re capable. They can manage a lot. I know of a woman who is an extremely smart, powerful, awesome pediatrician. And she was targeted by a man who was like, oh, she can support me financially. Because she’s so competent, she can manage my whole life and groomed her to do that.
She didn’t realize that was happening. She thought she was a helpful partner. So, to think this smart, capable, put together woman couldn’t be an abuse victim. That’s just not the case. .
Jane: Sometimes those women can be even more vulnerable, because that’s not how they think of themselves. They will always think of themselves as having power and having choices .
So this couldn’t possibly happen to me. Therefore, it must be my fault. I need to work harder, do more, and manage this. I need to find a solution to this. And so again, they take on that responsibility. And sometimes those women can be easier to put in that position, because they’re so used to being responsible for themselves and even taking responsibility for other people.
Media’s Portrayal Of Abusers & Victims
Anne: Just like the media portrays abusers as a certain type of man. They also portray abuse victims in a certain way. I don’t want to say it’s worse for capable women, but when they go for help, when they’re like, Hey, I’m being abused. They might tell their clergy or a therapist or someone, and people are like, whatever. Like you’re very direct. Like, no, that can’t happen to you, because you’re not the type of person who would be abused.
I love Frozen for this reason, because Hans, Hans of the Southern Isles. He’s clearly an abuser, but he looks like a good person. And they sing that song about eating each other’s sandwiches.
And Anna is smart. She’s strong. She’s capable. And she’s still a victim of his abuse. And in the end, he actually looks evil. In real life, it’s not a movie. So he’s still going to look like Hans of the Southern Isles to everybody else. He’s still going to look like that good guy.
Jane: And it’s really hard if you’re used to thinking of yourself as successful, in charge, strong and capable. It is hard to admit that you’ve been manipulated and abused. How could I let this happen?
I can’t be that idea of the ideal victim. I’m not that. So therefore, this can’t be happening. And the ideal victim, the perfect victim, again, it’s all the spinning hoops on fire in five different directions. Nobody is the perfect ideal victim. Nobody is the deserving victim. If somebody is abusing you, they are abusing you. And you don’t have to prove that you didn’t deserve it.
Abusers are Good at lOoking like they are A Good Person? Positive Media Representations
Jane: Nobody deserves to be abused, and nobody is invulnerable. It doesn’t say anything about you. It says something about the person who chooses to do that to you.
Anne: I just have this thought because we’re talking about the media for listeners today. If you have thought of a movie, TV show, or news article that shows this, write it in the comments below? Let’s gather up a bunch of examples from all over the world of movies, TV shows, or news articles where you’ve seen he was a good guy, and we see these dynamics play out. I’d love to hear your thoughts about your observations from the media and how it’s affected you.
Jane: It would also be interesting in those comments, and I will come in and look at them. Sometimes, we do this with kids. Tell me TV shows or movies where you’ve seen a really, really good relationship. A happy, equal sharing, respectful, consensual relationship shown in a TV or movie.
Talk about a good one. I don’t know if any of your listeners have seen Gilmore Girls, but one of the ones that came up was Sookie and Jackson as a relationship where you can squabble and you can disagree, but actually it’s equal, fun and kind.
Anne: One’s, it comes to mind on Netflix, there’s a Lost in Space, the new version with Toby Stevens.
Jane: Okay.
Anne: Their relationship seems healthy to me. I could be wrong. And then an Australian classic, Bluey.
Jane: Oh, yes.
Anne: I love Bluey. I’m like, oh my word, if all children would grow up on Bluey, I think we would be okay.
Jane: Yeah, we’re proud of Bluey down here. It’s the gift we gave the world.
Encouragement For Abuse Victims
Jane: But I would love to know where the real dynamics of abuse are actually shown, because that’s rare. Like you, I’ve spent more than a decade working with this stuff. Writing about it, researching it, talking to people who’ve been through it, my own experiences of it. And I guess the thing I always try to remind people is that you are not alone, you’re not making this up. You’re not pretending, it is that hard.
And the reason we do podcasts like this and all the other things that we do is because we know that. Help is there, and it will get better when you can find the strength and you can. But don’t ever let anyone tell you that it’s your fault or that this should be simple, or why don’t you just leave, because it’s always harder than that. It’s not impossible and it can be done, but don’t ever underestimate how difficult it is. And there are people who know that, will understand and support you.
Anne: Getting to emotional safety from an abuser who is good at looking like a good person,one small step at a time.
Jane: Right.
Anne: We’re here for you. I’m so grateful Jane came on today. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk with us, Jane.
Jane: Thank you so much for having me on and it was such a great conversation.
What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? – Leslie’s Story
Jul 25, 2023
Too often, we expect abuse victims to look a certain way: downtrodden, economically-dependent, and submissive. But that’s not true. Abuse is exploitative in nature. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? Strength and ability, here’s why.
If you relate to this episode and wonder if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz.
Leslie, a successful doctor with multiple degrees, a victim of her ex-husband’s horrific abuse – shares her story.
Here’s What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims: Financial Resources
Financially independent women may have difficulty accepting they are being abused. Because they are well-educated and respected in the workplace. The discrepancy with the way their abusive husband treats them at home may cause them to question reality. And create a disconnect in their ability to identify as a victim.
Interestingly, financial abuse is a very sad reality for women who are breadwinners in their families. This form of financial abuse may occur when the abuser:
Refuses to work and/or contribute to family expenses.
Uses the victim’s earnings to fund extravagant expenses and/or abusive expenses (dating apps, pornography, drugs, alcohol, etc).
Takes the victim’s paychecks and diverts them to his account.
Demands a portion of the victim’s paycheck and refuses to account for where the money goes.
Attempts to sabotage the victim’s career.
Promises to earn an income, but either cannot hold down a job or doesn’t try to secure a job.
Forces the victim to be the breadwinner, then makes her feel guilty for doing so.
Places an expectation that all expenses are the responsibility of the victim.
Is constantly resetting the time horizon as to when the financially playing field will be leveled.
Refuses to contribute to daily household tasks while the victim works to support the family.
But I Thought I Was Smart”
Many victims berate themselves for “allowing” abuse.
They say things like:
“But I thought I was smart!”
“How could I be so stupid?!”
“I don’t look like an abuse victim.”
“Resources for abuse victims go to them – I should get myself out of this.”
“I was stupid enough to get into this, I need to get myself out of this.”
Victims who have the capacity to earn a living can be extremely hard on themselves.
If you have experienced financial success, you are just as valid as any other victim of abuse – you deserve safety. You are entitled to every resource available to victims.
Transcript: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims?
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. Leslie is a successful doctor caught in the throes of a horrendously abusive relationship. All of our listeners get that. One of the purposes of having her on the podcast today is to talk about how abuse does not discriminate, and how difficult it can be for even successful or well spoken women, and all of you are like that.
Maybe we didn’t recognize it because we didn’t identify as victims, but also no one else would identify us as a victim. And so we want to dig into that today: What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? So welcome Leslie.
Leslie: Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I hope my story can help others. There were many dark times that I never thought I would get to the other side, but here I am. Not only surviving, I am thriving.
Anne: Like you, now that I’m thriving, the podcast sounds so much different than it did when I started. So if those of you who are listening. If it’s a little difficult or you’re like, don’t talk to me about the light at the end of the tunnel. I’m never going to feel good. My life is over, Leslie and I have been there. I just want to acknowledge that many of our listeners will be like, oh, I don’t want to hear that. That’s not possible for me.
Leslie: I agree. I lost myself so much within that whole abusive relationship, it was hard to think that I could ever climb out.
Recognizing Red Flags
Leslie: Then I joined the BTR.ORG Group Sessions and listened to the stories told. They’re all so similar, but different in their own ways. And then I saw women change things around. I greatly appreciate it.
Anne: So Leslie, let’s start at the beginning of your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?
Leslie: He was my second husband. My first husband was my high school sweetheart. Unfortunately, we lost him. So I was at a very vulnerable time when I met my second husband. And I think he knew that. Maybe that’s part of what he was looking for in a victim. I think he used that to his advantage. He was a coworker with whom I worked a few years before that, just kind of an acquaintance. We connected on Facebook, and of course, he came in on his white horse and shining armor.
And when I look back now, can I see every single red flag? Yes, I can. However, in the throes of it, I used every excuse why those red flags were not red flags.
Anne: So at the time, were you also giving what you thought perhaps were valid reasons? Like maybe he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe this is new and we’re working on our communication skills. Only because you didn’t know it was abuse. My guess is, back then, had you been educated in abuse, you would have known what you were looking at. You just did not know what you didn’t know.
Leslie: Exactly, 110%.
https://youtu.be/QleyqobSRCQ
He Hadn’t Ever Been Married
Leslie: He was six years younger than I was and hadn’t ever married. I had been married for 27 years, with three kids. So when we started talking, I kind of saw him as a person who was totally enmeshed in his family. My enmeshed husband’s life had been wallowed up by his family. I obviously, as a doctor, it’s my job to fix things. I see broken things and try to help.
He hadn’t been in stable relationships, because he had never met anyone like me. That was one of the wonderful lines that he always used, you know, and how everybody always cheated on him. Emotional abusers look for women who they can groom for their victims?
I just hooked on to all that hook line and sinker. So of course, it was my initiation to get married. He didn’t want to get married. I’m sure everybody has either watched or knows about The Maid. And I will tell you, it took me a long time to get through that series.
Anne:The Maid is a series on Netflix. I highly recommend it. It is triggery, especially depending on where you are in your healing process. But there are many super important principles that they bring up, and they cover all the basics.
Leslie: My friend recommended it to me. She said, “I probably shouldn’t have recommended it so soon.” I was still fresh, and it took me a long time to watch it, all those red flags that I didn’t see. I continued with the relationship. We were actually in therapy before we ever got married. My 18 year old daughter, there was one point where she was like, mom, what are you doing?
Struggles With Pornography Addiction: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims?
Leslie: I just couldn’t see it. So it was just one of those things where it became, you know, years of being pushed down. And then I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I did get him into therapy, probably nine months into our relationship. Because he had never been in therapy in his entire life.
And he used those to check the boxes. It wasn’t until we got into a couples therapist that the relationship became even rockier, more abusive. He was more emotionally abusive, getting in your face. The one part I love in The Maid, the series, is when she says, but he’s never hit me.
When I listened to that, that hit me to my core because I said the same thing. Well, he’s never hit me. It’s not abuse. He’s never hit me. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? You know, I’m strong, independent, I run two hospitals, I’ve got six degrees, I’m not being abused. I was the one researching everything, I was the one always trying to find answers.
The first time I caught him with exploiatative material was probably the first year we were together. He had probably over 50,000 pictures of naked women of all ages on his phone. Which ended up escalating into many other areas of, you know, finding him on dating websites and you name it.
Anne: So when you say of various ages, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we use the term child abuse material because that’s what it is. So did you also find that on his phone?
Understanding Abuse & Addiction With Therapy
Leslie: They were young looking. Yes. And then actually that was his M. O. was younger women. Maybe that’s what he was looking for in his victims? And he actually later in my journey with him, when we kind of identified a potential addiction. But honestly, now that I’m at where I’m in my life and journey, I think he just went along with that diagnosis.
He went to an expensive inpatient treatment center for three weeks, and checked all his boxes. Because he knew that was the only way he could stay in, in the marriage. But yet, he continued to exhibit all the behaviors when he came out. He ended up getting fired from his job for harassment of a younger person, younger than 21.
Anne: Let’s talk about the addiction recovery. When you went down that road for a minute. Did anyone in that space or at that clinic tell you that you are an abuse victim? Was abuse brought up?
Leslie: I caught him in multiple online affairs. And we were at our last straw. We were seeing a couples counselor. The counselor goes, “I don’t understand what’s wrong with him.”
He keeps getting caught. He knows what he’s got to lose. The counselor said it’s almost like he has an addiction or something. And I go, well, is there such a thing as addiction? And of course, then I started researching everything with my analytical brain. We started going down that path. We did start with CSAT counselors, which stands for Certified Addiction Therapist.
He had one, I had one, he did end up doing one of the well known programs out in Los Angeles. Never said domestic violence, never said abuse.
Leslie’s Realization & Empowerment
Anne: Most of the time, you can’t have infidelity without emotional abuse and when people go down the addiction recovery route, they don’t hear the word abuse.
Leslie: Nope, I agree.
Anne: So, here at BTR.ORG, some people don’t agree with us, in fact many people don’t agree with us. You might not agree with us. Is exploitative material addictive? Sure, I prefer to define it as abusive behavior rather than an addiction.
Leslie: Yes
Anne: Because I think that gets to the heart of the matter. The whole addiction recovery complex does not view this man as an abuser. It concerns me greatly, because I do not think they’re addressing the correct thing.
Leslie: I 100 percent agree with that. The two CSAT counselors that we were working with, his and mine, were two different ones. Mine actually had been married to an abuser, and she divorced hers. The other one that my ex had seen, she had stayed with hers. It’s actually interesting to see the dynamic of what they brought to each of the therapy sessions.
Anne: Did she ever say, um, well, he’s checking boxes. That’s also called grooming. Did she ever bring that up?
Leslie: She didn’t, she said, the whole trauma bonding thing.
Anne: I’m not sure if you’ve heard our episode about this. I made up a different term for it. Because I don’t like the word trauma bond, because it feels like you actually maybe have a bond. If trauma bond is useful to you, and it’s helped move you forward and get to safety, continue using it. I didn’t like it because it seemed like a lot of women, feel stuck, right?
What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Manufactured Relational Tether
Anne: They’re like, but I’m bonded to this person through this trauma. And so the term I invented, and we have a video on this that is amazing. So I’ll put that in this episode. So if you go to our website and find this episode, the video will be in there. I call it the manufactured relational tether. Actually, I think I’ve seen that.
The reason I call it is because you think you’re bonded to them, but they are not bonded to you. And they have manufactured this tether to keep you stuck. And that video clearly shows it. Do you remember that video? This is one of the ways emotional abusers keep their victims stuck.
Leslie: Yes, I do.
Anne: What did you think of it?
Leslie: I thought it was awesome, because I saw so many things. Like people who saw like our relationship from the start to the end. If they know now that we’ve divorced, they are just shocked. They’re like, Oh Mike, seemed like such an amazing person. He brought you flowers every day. I hate flowers now. Just an FYI to me, that is a huge trigger. Because when he would be trying to hook up with someone and get caught, guess what he did.
Brought me flowers or he was abusive that night. That’s what he did the next day, brought me flowers. So flowers to me are a huge trigger. But those are all the outside things they manufacture to everybody else. So nobody will believe your story. Nobody will believe, because they just see this “awesome person.” They don’t see what goes on behind closed doors. They don’t see the reactions.
The Turning Point: Breast Cancer
Leslie: The reason I brought up my breast cancer story was that when I first started to say, okay, I think this is not going to work. But then I found out I had breast cancer. I’ve got three grown children who don’t have their own father still alive. And I was like, and now I’m going to leave them motherless. I cannot fight him and fight for my life. So I decided that all would go on the back burner while I fought for my life.
I feel like that gave him a little more leeway to continue that whole, keeping me down more and more. And it wasn’t until after I’d been through the chemo, been through the double mastectomy. And had been through months and months of CSAT counseling, we had done a therapeutic separation. Once I got out of the situation, I woke up one morning and looked in the mirror.
And I just didn’t recognize the person looking back at me anymore. I was like, wow, you would never in a million years allow this ever, ever in your life. How are you allowing this now? And that was when I started to take my power back. That’s when I started the change of not necessarily working toward our reconciliation. But working more on focusing on myself and what I needed. And if that happened, then it happened. And if it didn’t, I was okay with that.
Anne: Let’s talk about the therapy disclosure. I think that is insane when you’re looking at abuse, right? In an ideal world, which never happens.
What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Leslie’s Academic and Professional Achievements
Anne: It does happen here at BTR.ORG. That’s why I love BTR.ORG. It’s an amazing oasis of truth. But what should happen is the second you go in there, and it’s hard. Because it took you forever to figure out they were an abuser. So, why is a therapist smarter than you? They’re not, right? You, you have six degrees. Some emotional abusers look for very accomplished women to be their victims. By the way, can you just list your degrees real quick?
Leslie: So I have a bachelor’s in nursing. I have a master’s in nursing with family practice, and a master’s in nursing and neonatal. I have a doctorate, and I just went back for a neonatal fellowship that I just finished last year.
Anne: And you’re a medical doctor?
Leslie: Yep.
Anne: Okay. So you have your MD as well.
Leslie: Yes.
Anne: All right. And you run two hospitals. Okay, so Leslie is no dummy, people. So if you were like, why didn’t I see it? Why didn’t I know what was going on? And then Leslie is so smart that she starts researching things. And in this case, her research actually kept her in the abuse longer. Accidentally, right? It’s not your fault. But because it wasn’t abuse out of the gate, it’s like addiction, maybe childhood trauma, it’s some other things.
You go in and you’re given this, like, let’s do a therapeutic disclosure, or other things that a CSAT would tell you. If you went to church or when you went to church, how did he present in the, in a religious setting? A Catholic father raised me and a Baptist mother. So they never agreed on religion.
The Church & Misogyny
Leslie: So I found my religion and spirituality later in life. It was always funny to me that he would say how Catholic he was. He went to a Catholic high school. His family went to church every Sunday, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. All the lies, all the abuse, the stealing, things that he would do that were immoral. They just never added up to what a good Christian would do.
Anne: So my guess is that even though you didn’t go for help with the clergy route, many women do. Many of our listeners have tried to get help from clergy, their pastor, bishop or rabbi. They have gone to get help, and they are more abused in the process because the clergy does not know what they’re looking at. And they might be abusive themselves.
They might be steeped in misogyny. And also, they may like him. I think that’s probably the biggest problem, is they know the guy and think he’s a great guy. And so they are like, what are you talking about? Because many clergy respond well when they don’t know the man.
Like if they listen, they’re like, wow, that sounds abusive. How can we help? But if they know him, they believe him over you. So it’s good that you didn’t try to get help from clergy. Because my guess is that would have been traumatic. But let’s focus then on the trauma that came from therapy. From basically prolonging the abuse. When do you start realizing that being a supportive, helpful spouse is working against you?
Leslie: It was when I realized I had totally lost myself. I was not the person I was.
The Breaking Point
Leslie: I wouldn’t engage in activities. I wouldn’t go out with my friends anymore. There were so many things that gave me joy that I would not do anymore. Just because I just existed. I was the major breadwinner. He did not work. He couldn’t hold down a job. And my breaking point for the first time we separated was that we were actually in the car dealership getting him a new car. Because his lease was up.
And I looked over and he was actually on Tinder making a hookup. While we were in the car dealership, buying him a new car. He moved out, and that was a very explosive time. We tried to navigate through that, with our couples counselor.
Anne: Sorry, it’s interesting. The words you’re using, you’re using the word we. So he’s trying to like reassert control here, which is emotional abuse, which is why things are escalating. And we as a couple are not working on anything. But because your perspective is we, even now, talking about it. It’s really interesting that victims still may be looking back and thinking, well, we were trying. When that was never happening in the first place,
Leslie: it was, it was only me. You’re 100% right.
Anne: Yeah. Because you’re in the relationship. You have a relationship, but they don’t have a relationship with you.
The Illusion Of Partnership: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims?
Leslie: That has been one of my biggest challenges. Because being successful, being a helper, a doer, I did a lot of medical relief work pre-COVID. And he ended up piggybacking or riding my coattails on many of my trips. I would go on these trips, and maybe five photos the whole time. I was there because I’m there to work, I’m there to help. I’m there doing medical relief work. He was looking for a victim who could make him look good.
He had thousands of photos all over social media about what a wonderful thing he was doing, and him and him and him. And I remember early on in our relationship. saying to him, what are your dreams? What are your aspirations? What are your goals? And I accomplished two more degrees. When I was with him. I always would say, you know, don’t you have a dream? Don’t you have an aspiration? What do you want to do? I said, you can’t always ride on my coattails.
I have my dreams, my aspirations of what I want to do with my life. You, you should have your own, and then we should have together goals. That was a really hard thing for me to wrap my brain around. That somebody would not have goals or not have the same drive and ambition that I had. So looking back and seeing how much he groomed and took from me.
My brother said this a few months ago. I know he didn’t mean to say it. I’ve learned to not take things personally when people say things. People sometimes just don’t know what to say. They don’t mean to say things the way they come out, but they were friends, and I think they’re loosely still friendly.
Family Dynamics & Realizations
Leslie: We don’t talk about it. And they used to go snowmobiling together. My brother went on a yearly trip, and all the guys, I guess, asked where my ex was. He said, “Well, he’s not a kept man anymore.” He said, “My sister got smart to his ways, and he’s not a kept man anymore.” Which kind of stunned me a bit, because I was like, That is exactly what he was. He was looking for someone to take advantage of.
He had his cake, and he could eat it too. Who wouldn’t want that? He had the nice house on the lake, and all the toys. He got to travel the world. And he still got to screw around on the side. So, you know, who wouldn’t want a life like that?
Anne: So, what he wasn’t looking for, which is so painful to recognize in hindsight, was a true partnership.
Leslie: Correct.
Anne: Emotional abusers look for someone they can exploiat. All his behaviors were intent on grooming you. To use you for finances, travel and also prestige. Like he’s the husband of this great, amazing, successful woman, but he didn’t want to be your partner.
Leslie: 100%, and that was a really hard pill for me to swallow when I finally realized that this was not a partnership whatsoever.
Anne: And when you started going to therapy, like right at the beginning, before you were even married. Did the therapist tip you off to this?
Leslie: I think she did. And then when we had been married for a year. We moved to the West side of Michigan, away from his family. Because honestly, if we hadn’t, we probably wouldn’t have stayed married as long as we did.
Therapist’s Insight & Warnings
Leslie: When we moved to the West Side, I started seeing a new therapist, and she is amazing. She called me out on it almost immediately. She’s like, you realize he’s a narcissist, that he’s using you, that this is abuse. I would always have excuses, and she was very blunt, and she’d be like, no, I’m telling you. That is what abusers look for in their victims, someone to use. And then when I stopped seeing her, because we went down the whole addiction road.
So then I got my own CSAT. When I finally got out of that. I ended up going back to my original one, and I had a final session with my CSAT. She said, why are you stopping seeing me? And I don’t mind, because I just wonder. And I said, because the reason I’m seeing you no longer exists. I said, I don’t need to see you anymore, because this isn’t a CSAT matter.
Anne: Yeah, the interesting thing was it was never a CSAT matter.
Leslie: No, you’re right.
Anne: And the unfortunate thing is the CSAT didn’t tell you that, right? Because they do not see it as abuse. And I think they are clinically negligent.
Leslie: Although I will say I have the utmost respect. We were recommended to a counselor, who is a CSAT counselor who only sees married couples, for couple therapy. So he would have his, I’d have mine. And then we were going to see this couple one. We went to him the first time. And at the end of it, he looked at us and went, “I don’t think I can help you guys.”
Leslie: And I was so blown away.
What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Role of A Couples Therapy
Leslie: I go, what do you mean? I said, he just spent all this money on this program. You know, he’s “checking the boxes,” dah, dah, dah.
He goes, “No, he’s not.” He goes, “I see all the things he’s not doing. And you want me to tell you to trust him when he’s not trustworthy? I can’t do that. And I will not take your money.”
I have the utmost respect for him, because the fact that he saw, I mean, he could have just kept taking our money and kept saying, Oh yeah, I can fix you guys. This is fine.
He did say, I want to have one individual session with each of you, and then I’ll make my final decision. And even in my first session with him, he was like, what are you doing? He’s like, really? You know, it’s funny. Lake Michigan is known for being very turbulent, and he goes, you know, they put those red flags out in the middle of the lake when they tell you not to go swimming. You saw all those red flags, and you still went swimming.
Anne: Well, it’s because you didn’t know how to process the red flag. So as you saw the red flag. To you, it said, okay, he’s got childhood trauma. He needs therapy.
Leslie: Exactly.
Anne: It didn’t say red flag abuser. You saw inappropriate stuff on his phone, red flag, maybe he’s an addict. It didn’t say red flag abuser,
Leslie: Right.
Anne: That’s the other issue, is that women might see the red flags fine. But they don’t know how to process it or define it.
The Dangers Of Couple Therapy In Abuse Situations
Anne: They’re trying to be good, nice people. We know people aren’t perfect. And know that we can’t expect people to be perfect. I don’t think we’re missing the red flags. We just think we’re processing them incorrectly, and most addiction or regular therapy would say work on communication, connect with them.
You know, there’s so much misinformation in an abuse scenario, which at BTR.ORG we see exploitative material use as abusive, right? So in an abusive scenario, they should never be doing couple therapy ever, ever, ever. So in my opinion, CSATs who do couple therapy are clinically negligent.
Leslie: I agree.
Anne: Because you’ve got an abuser, and you should not be doing couple therapy with an abuser. So it’s like an oxymoron, but they don’t see it that way because they don’t see it as abuse. So let’s actually focus on that for just a minute. Your original therapist that told you. Hey, this is abuse. And then you went to a CSAT. Talk about what happened.
How did he use that manufactured relational tether at that point? Maybe you went home and said, hey, she said you were abusive or something. Or maybe you didn’t, but how did he reel you back in? To go down the addiction recovery route? Talk about your thought process or how he manipulated you after that.
Leslie: You probably know the whole Gottman thing about marital therapy. So our initial therapist would use Gottman stuff with us.
Anne: When we talk about Gottman, this is classic couple therapy stuff that does not account for abuse.
Reactive Abuse Misconception
Leslie: Exactly, exactly he would use the tools that we would get in therapy as weapons against me. And he would say, “But this is what the counselor said, and you’re not doing this, and you’re not doing that. I’m trying to take a break.”
But it would always be the get in your face, that whole reactive abuse.
Anne: So we also don’t use the word reactive abuse here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. The reason I want to pause there is that people have said this, they say something. And then you react, maybe you yell or I don’t know, whatever, right?
Leslie: Uncharacteristic, yes.
Anne: And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we just see that as trying to defend yourself.
Leslie: Right.
Anne: That’s it. You’re not abusing them reactively or anything like that.
You are trying to defend yourself, and that’s it. I do not want victims labeled as also abusers. In trying to defend themselves from abuse, that’s what the abuser wants. What do emotional abusers want to see it as like, well, we both have problems and we’re both unhealthy. When it needs to be viewed as you’ve got an abuser. And then you have a victim trying to survive.
Leslie: And that’s exactly what I was trying to do. And he would use all those therapy things as weapons back against me. I thought I was going crazy so many times. You feel like you are spinning in circles, you’re hopeless, you get to a point where you just don’t know where to turn. You don’t know what to do anymore.
What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Escaping The Fog Of Manipulation
Anne: So my guess is he’s escalating at this point because he’s losing control. When he’s in treatment, he knows that you have the time and space to clear out the fog. They can’t manipulate you when they’re not in constant contact with you, right? So my guess is that he’s freaking out at this point. He’s not into the treatment at all, but he’s trying to act like he is to groom you, but realizing you have space.
So at this point where you have space. You’re finally able to get your wits about you. Because so many women are trying to sort it out, while still being manipulated and lied to daily. And they’re still deep in the fog. So talk about how that space helped you see clearly.
Leslie: The space was key. It probably took me a good six weeks before I finally started to see things as they were. And the reactions he would have when we would have interactions. We had been separated for three months, and we weren’t doing any couple of counseling. He ended up getting fired from work for inappropriateness. But he did get his job back, but right then is when he was going to go away for treatment.
The day after he left for treatment, I came home that night. The following night, all three of my kids were at my house. And my kids are grown, they’re adults. And I thought, okay, what is going on? This was not a planned family thing. My daughter lives three hours away. Like, why is she here?
Family Intervention & Legal Steps
Leslie: So when I walked in, I said, what is going on? And apparently one of my children found out that he was fired for inappropriate things. And found out he had been stalking younger women. I had already spoke with an attorney before, but it was the following day that I ended up going through and filing while he was away at treatment.
Anne: One of the things that I recommend victims don’t do, which is crazy hard to do. I find that all of us needed to do this. I wish there was some way to circumvent it, but I’m not sure if there is. When you find out about the abuse or some behaviors, our natural reaction is to tell the abuser this, right?
Leslie: Right.
Anne: To say, “Hey, I just found out I have an STD. What happened?” Or, “Hey, I just found pornography on your phone.”
I wish that emotional abuse victims would instead of talking to the abuser and trying to help him see the situation. That they would take steps back and get to safety. Because every time we confront the abuser or try to like, help him understand the situation, we just get more abused. Similarly, you are more abused through all the therapy because he started weaponizing all the therapy language.
Once this happened and you contacted a lawyer, did you try to talk to him about what had happened or anything after that? And did you have that experience where in trying to say, hey, look, I’m going to get divorced? Did that set you up for more abuse?
Leslie: It did in a certain aspect, but we were not living together at the time. So I still could keep that.
Legal Battles & Postnuptial Agreements
Leslie: Before he left for treatment, I had enough wits about me that I contacted an attorney prior and had a postnuptial agreement drawn up. I made him sign that if he wanted to stay married or “save the marriage”. That he needed to sign it. He did sign it. And that was my only saving grace, because it basically said, “You leave with what you came with. I leave with what I came with. You’re not entitled to any spousal support X, Y, and Z.”
And that was the only thing I can say that I could have my wits about me, so that I could walk away and not get totally. For lack of better words, screwed over in the end.
Anne: This is what you have to do if you have a narcissistic husband. So the post nup goes well, you win by default, which is awesome. He doesn’t get an attorney, and that is amazing. That doesn’t always happen when fighting a narcissist for custody. Sometimes they use legal abuse and drag somebody through legal things for years. So that was a miracle. Good, I’m so happy that happened for you. But you have had to actually take him to court.
Leslie: He has neglected to take me off his house, so I’m still financially liable for the mortgage on his house. He is dragging that out. I have done everything in the post nup that I was supposed to do. Everything was taken out of his name, which was supposed to be. I have sold the house we had together. So his name’s off that. I have my own new house. He owes me approximately 30ish thousand dollars for things he took out of my accounts. He just kept dragging it out.
What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Preparing for Legal Warfare
Leslie: He wouldn’t answer emails for weeks at a time. I didn’t want to incur any more legal costs. I kept trying to think, okay, this is going to resolve. He’s going to get his act together, dah, dah, dah. It didn’t happen. About a month ago, I finally contacted my attorney back. I said, okay, he still doesn’t have my name off the house, and he still owes me this money. What are we going to do?
Leslie: And he’s like, okay, are you ready to play by my rules? I said, I said, yes. He goes, because if we play by my rules, he’s not going to like it. And I go, I’m just done dealing with him. So we go back to court on June 6th. They will actually hold him in contempt of court times two, one for non-payment of what should have been paid. Which he hasn’t paid for a year and a half.
And the second is, is they’re going to make him list his house for sale. And he will only have 15 days to get it listed. This house was always a bane of our existence, because it was always his. He would never sell it. So the fact that they’re going to try to make him sell is a little disconcerting on my part. Just because I know this will put him over the edge. But when you don’t do what you’re supposed to do in the beginning, and you act like an idiot, then this is the consequences.
Anne: Yeah. Because you don’t share kids with him.
The Importance Of Boundaries
Anne: Have you blocked him on your phone?
Leslie: He’s blocked on my phone, he’s blocked on social media. I’ve blocked all family, any friends that were mutual friends that weren’t my friends prior to us getting together. They have all been taken off all my social media.
Anne: So you’re prepared.
Leslie: Yes.
Anne: Yeah. It’s going to be all out war for him, and he’s going to want to drag it out forever. And one of the things to think about is telling your attorney to minimize legal costs as much as possible. Because he’s going to want to drag this out for years.
Leslie: And the nice thing is in the postnuptial agreement, it specifically states that if we have to go back to court for one of us not complying with the postnuptial, that person must pay all legal court costs for both parties.
Anne: That is awesome. And they’ll have to take that out?
Leslie: Yes.
Anne: Of the house he sells.
Leslie: Yes, yes.
Anne: So you’ll have the money. Ah, that’s great. Well, I hope it goes well, because sometimes, not sometimes, all the time, most of the time, these court things go really haywire. So you think, Oh, I’m all prepared and everything looks good. And then it hits and it does not go the way you want. I hope that that happens for you. It seems like you’re well prepared.
Warning For Listeners About Abusers In Court
Anne: But for our listeners out there, I want to give everybody a nice healthy, sad, horrific warning. That no matter how well prepared you are, they are so skilled at manipulation, lies, and throw all kinds of crazy things your way. And even when you think, okay, I know what the worst case scenario is. And I’m okay with the worst case scenario. It can even be worse than that.
Emotional abusers are tricky in court to their victims, and the courts don’t understand it. So I hope things go well, and it sounds like they will, but I just want to do a little warning for my listeners.
Leslie: I agree with that, because I feel that it’s a toss up either way. The judge can go either way on it. You know, you think you’ve crossed all your T’s and dotted your I’s, but you know, when push comes to shove and he gives his sob story or whatever he decides to do, who knows what’s going to happen. Everybody says, you should just write right off that money, you’re never going to see it. Just let it go, move on.
And I’m like, no, he’s taken enough of my life from me. Like, why would I give him the satisfaction of giving him another 30, 000? I don’t have to deal with it. My attorney is dealing with it. It’s kind of more principle to me that no, you will not continue to abuse and take and not have consequences.
Anne: Especially because you share that house. Getting your name off that house is super important. So I have a theory that successful women have a harder time getting out of abuse.
What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Power of Sharing Your Story
Anne: And it’s because people don’t perceive them as a victim, so it’s harder to get help. What do you think about that?
Leslie: I think it’s pretty true. I’ve become much more outspoken for survivors of abuse. And it actually was my own medical doctor when I was sitting there sobbing to her, telling my story to her. She was just so taken aback. She said, “You could still do good work. I know you want to do your medical relief work again.”
And she goes, “But you know, the biggest work you could do is get your story out there.” She said, “Because there are so many people who don’t have the resources you had. Or don’t know where to turn or think just because they’re not successful. This is why it happened to them.”
No, it happens to anyone, anyone. Emotional abusers look for victims who they can exploit. It can happen to anyone. And it’s so devastating when you are in the thick of it. It is so hard. And I say this all the time, stay your course. You will get there today. It might not seem like it tomorrow. It might not seem like it.
And I will tell you, even probably six months ago, I was not the person I am today. And I would not have been as positive even six months ago, as I am today, just by staying my course and not deviating from my own personal growth and what I needed to do for me. I stopped focusing on us and the marriage and started focusing on me.
Anne: In some ways, your resources worked against you because you could pay for couple therapy, you can pay for CSATs, you can go that direction.
The Right Resources Matter & Children As The Abuser’s Leverage
Anne: When people say there are lots of resources available, it’s important for me to point out the right resources matter.
Leslie: Right, exactly.
Anne: You can waste so much money on addiction recovery. You can waste so much time doing that. Getting the abuse resources is the most important thing, and sticking with that course. The other thing I wanna say is that you’re doing so well right now. And I’m so happy for you, is that you do not share children with this man.
Leslie: Yes.
Anne: And so you can get completely away, right? Even if his court case doesn’t go great and you lose $30, 000. That’s a bummer, but his name will get off the house. Many listeners to this podcast, myself included, are forced by the court system to continue to interact with our abuser. Who is also psychologically and emotionally abusing our children.
And this is for years and years. What happened at the end of the Netflix show The Maid, exactly. The end was like, oh, finally she could get out. And I think society wants us to think that I think society is like, if you keep putting one foot in front of the other, you will get out eventually.
And the harsh. awful terror is that the court system is actually not helpful. We are still forced to interact because we share kids. TheMaid could have ended completely differently, where he didn’t let her go, right? And I would say that’s the majority of what women are experiencing. So that had a happy ending, but that happy ending is rare.
The Harsh Reality Of Court Systems
Anne: So for those who don’t share children, this could be your story.
Leslie: Right.
Anne: And I want to provide hope for you that you can move on. It is there. It is waiting for you. And you can have a complete and total separation from those injuries. And then for those who share children, and you’re facing that every day.
For me, even up until probably a year ago, stories like yours, I was happy for you. But so triggered and mad for me.
Leslie: Yeah.
Anne: But like, nobody would protect me. Then in fact, the court system supposed to protect victims was actually not the domestic violence shelter and everything. They’re like, get out, get out and get out, but you can’t get out.
You’re stuck. And so I was always like continually mad. I have now used a type of strategic communication to be in a better place that isn’t dependent on court. Using this type of strategic communication, I was able to deliver myself and my kids completely. So they don’t go with him hardly at all anymore.
Leslie: And I do feel for the people who have children, and I will say, I am so grateful that I did not have children with him. I can so see where that is such a struggle. But I believe there are ways of communication and learning how to respect yourself enough to keep your own boundaries with them. And I think that was my biggest thing. I always lacked boundaries in many areas, so the biggest thing was teaching myself boundaries.
Strategies for dealing with Emotional Abusers
Leslie: Boundaries with my own kids. Boundaries with, strangers, with people. The biggest takeaway is learning how to deal with that part of it.
Anne: It’s a skill we all need to learn. This is not a, like, high school class they offer, so it’s important. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? We talked a little bit about targeting, being used, grooming, the manufactured relational tether. You learned a lot through this about how you were never in a relationship. But that you were targeted.
If you could go back in time. And talk to yourself before meeting him, and teach you some of the things you never wanted to learn, that you never knew you needed to know. What would you tell yourself?
Leslie: I would tell myself to one, respect myself enough to listen to my inner self and my inner gut feelings. I think that is the biggest thing emotional abusers target is getting you to start doubting yourself. I always prided myself on having a wonderful, amazing ability to have that inner gut feeling as many medical professionals do.
That’s how we guide our practice a lot of the time, but that was used against me, because once he stopped my ability to trust my own gut. That is where I feel he was able to worm himself in and keep me off balance. I would say to myself trust your gut. Actions speak louder than words.
I remember saying your actions are not matching your words early in our relationship. And if I had just kept true to myself in that statement, his actions showed me exactly who he was, not the words. I think that would have been a totally different outcome.
The Trap Of Trying To Resolve With Abusers
Anne: It’s interesting, so when we recognize that his actions are inconsistent with his words. Because we perceive them as a partner. The first thing we want to do is talk to them about our feelings. That is where they keep us trapped. They would like us to think it’s a partnership, because in a partnership, that’s what you would do. You would try to resolve it, to talk to them about our observations.
So, as we say, “Hey, I noticed your actions don’t sync up with your words”. Then they can talk more and groom more. Like, okay, well she noticed that. So now I’m going to try this other tactic, or now I’m going to lie better. Unfortunately, with an abuser, all they hear is, I need to deceive better, manipulate better, and groom better.
You can’t determine that unless you have those conversations. So giving grace to all the victims who tried to talk to their abuser, only to be abused more. If you’re in that boat now, and you’re listening to this. Let’s pretend that on this podcast you have heard something and you’re like, this is how he is. An aha light bulb has gone off in your head. I would encourage you, do not go to your abuser and tell him about it. Do not go to him and say, “Oh, you have to listen to this podcast.”
Before you decide to do that, please enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. At least learn how to communicate strategically with them before you make a decision about that.
The Importance Of Using Strategy
Anne: If you enroll in Living Free and learn the strategies, and then you decide, you know what, I’m still going to talk to him. Then at least you’ll be making a decision, having all the information you need to make that decision.
Leslie: I can’t tell you how many times I would confront him immediately on something. And afterwards, I would say to myself. Why didn’t you just stay quiet? Why didn’t you just continue to gather your “evidence” to realize what was going on? But as soon as I found something or something would happen, it would immediately come out of my mouth. That is the biggest thing. What you just said.
Don’t confront them like they’re using all your words against you, and that is the hardest thing to do.
Leslie: And I so appreciate everything Betrayal Trauma Recovery does to help women in these situations, because it seems so hopeless. I just want to encourage everyone that one day there is a light. There is. Just keep looking for it.
Anne: Thank you so much, Leslie.
Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened? An Interview With Kate Moore
Jul 18, 2023
It’s super common for an emotional abuser to lie about his ex, but did you know that tradition is centuries old? If you’re wondering, “Why does my ex lie about what happened?” Here’s a bit of history you absolutely need to know.
Why does my ex lie about what happened? Labeling a woman as crazy is a powerful tool that men have had in their arsenal for centuries.
And it’s a little confusing: when a woman is clearly sane and healthy, why in the world would someone lie and say she’s crazy, unstable, and even dangerous?
This is a form of emotional abuse. To discover if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz.
This is WHY Your Ex Lies About You
Rather than own up to his lies, some abusive men convince those in power that the victim is crazy. It isn’t hard to convince others that women are crazy. The odds are stacked against us.
Kate Moore, best selling author talks about why abusive men lie about their ex’s.
Transcript: Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened?
Anne: Kate Moore is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of the Radium Girls. It is a winner of the 2017 Goodreads Choice Award for Best History. And voted U. S. Librarian’s Favorite Nonfiction Book of 2017. And named the Notable Nonfiction Book of 2018 by the American Library Association.
A British writer based in London, Kate writes across various genres and has had multiple titles on the Sunday Times bestseller list. Her latest book is The Woman They Could Not Silence. Welcome, Kate.
Kate: Thank you so much for having me.
Anne: It is such an honor to have you. Thank you so much for all your hard work, like bringing these issues to light for women all over the world. It’s really important, and I appreciate your work.
Kate: It’s my honor to do it. And I have to thank you for the work you do. You do so much. What you’re doing is helping people. Having worked with survivors of domestic violence and abusive relationships, I know how important it is to have that support network. So thank you for inspiring people and supporting them through these difficult times.
Anne: It’s an all hands on deck effort to stop abuse. And help women asking the question, Why does my ex lie about what happened?
Kate: It needs to be across the size, you know, so you’re doing an awesome job. So thank you.
Synopsis Of The Woman They Could Not Silence
Anne: For those in our audience who may not be familiar with your book, without revealing too much, can you please provide us with a synopsis of your book, The Woman They Could Not Silence?
Kate: It is my honor to introduce your listeners to The Woman They Could Not Silence. Her name is Elizabeth Packard. It’s not surprising if none of your listeners have heard her name before. Because as often happens to feisty women who stand up for themselves. History has chosen to commemorate instead those men who tried but failed to silence her. And Elizabeth’s story and voice have been lost in time.
Her story starts on the cusp of the American Civil War in June 1860. It starts with Elizabeth, a 43 year old housewife and mother of six, lying in bed in her marital home. It starts with a simple question. What would happen if your husband could commit you to an insane asylum just because you disagreed with him?
Anne: You know, that question is strangely relevant today. Why does my ex lie about what happened? Not that men commit their abuse victims to an insane asylum. But they are committing them metaphorically to other people, thinking they’re crazy. So this concept is relevant today to abuse victims.
Anne: How did you come across Elizabeth’s story?
Kate: How I came across Elizabeth’s story is a little bit topsy turvy. Because I decided what I wanted to write about first, before I even knew her name. So I wrote The Woman They Could Not Silence because of the Me Too movement. And you probably remember how incredible that fall was, when everywhere women were speaking up against abuse and harassment.
The Silencing Of Women Through History
Kate: Crucially, people listened and believed us. And that got me thinking, well why has it taken so long, because it’s not like the fall of 2017 was the first time. That people had spoken out about these things. People took us seriously for the first time.
I thought that for centuries, whenever women used our voices, we are called crazy. That is something that resonates with your audience so much. Because gaslighting and calling you mad is going on in relationships every single day.
It happens also, I think, on a sort of political stage, you only have to look at Nancy Pelosi or any sort of public female political figures. She is called crazy because she speaks up and uses her voice. I decided to write about the way women are silenced through our mental health.
I searched for a woman to whom that had happened, and found Elizabeth’s story. Elizabeth’s story is amazing, not only because she survives this experience. Her husband dispatches her to an asylum. Even though she’s sane. What’s incredible about it is that through that crucible of suffering, she actually becomes the woman they could not silence.
She finds her voice, and she uses it to change the world.
Anne: I’m getting chills. Like, seriously. This is one of the ways abusers gaslight women.
Kate: She is a seriously impressive person. I think for me, she is the most inspiring and resilient woman I’ve ever encountered. Because everyone told her she was mad. Her husband, her doctor, her community. But Elizabeth knew she was not. Her husband lied about her.
Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Elizabeth’s Famous Quote
Kate: A famous quote of hers is, “I, though a woman, have just as good a right to my opinion as my husband has.” But just because she believed that. Because she asserted herself, and what she believed in. In terms of the science of the age, it was enough to have her sent away to an insane asylum.
Anne: That is just, I don’t know, I’m feeling a lot of emotion right now. Not just for her, but all the women, throughout time. Who we stand on their shoulders, right? Like for Elizabeth, like the work she did, just for standing up for herself. She stood up for all of us. All of us who ask the question, why does my husband lie about small things, and big things.
Kate: Yes, completely. I think she is. Even though she herself was exceptional, I think she is also an everywoman. I think she saw herself in that way. She meets the other women in the asylum to whom the same thing happened. Husbands and fathers sent them away. You know, these are women who simply have defied domestic control. They’re causing too much trouble. They’re just themselves, frankly, and that’s enough to get them dispatched.
She meets these women, and she calls them sisters. And what’s remarkable about Elizabeth is that she could have saved herself countless times in her story. She could have got out early, she could have done enough to help her own situation.
https://youtube.com/shorts/KrRxSCGxPys
Then he determined that, you know, she wasn’t going anywhere. She was here to make a difference, and she was going to take every single woman with her as she fights for freedom and independence. And that fight continues even outside the brick walls of an insane asylum.
Elizabeth’s Fight For Freedom Relates To Modern Abuse Victims
Kate: She becomes a political force, and she has made the world better for all of us. Not just the sisters she personally met, but for every sister in America, every sister across the world. Elizabeth spearheaded a campaign to make things better for us all.
Anne: This book, which I’m sure now everyone is like, how do I get my hands on it? You can go to our books page. We have a curated list of all the books we recommend there, it is on that list. Our links take you straight to Amazon. So I’m sure you can find it on Amazon.
Our community consists of women surviving narcissistic abuse in their relationships. People call them crazy and all kinds of things. Like gold diggers sometimes, or that they want to ruin their families, or crazy stuff that is not at all true, and particularly they suffer from emotional, psychological, and spiritual abuse.
Most innocent bystanders, they do not see an abusive man calling her crazy as abuse. They just perceive it as, “His side of the story.” So, in terms of Elizabeth’s experience, how might they relate with Elizabeth in this way?
Kate: I think Elizabeth’s story will resonate so much. And I actually want to share a quote with you from Elizabeth herself, because I think she grasped exactly that situation that you’re describing.
Elizabeth’s Anticipation Of Modern Laws
Kate: I think she almost anticipated some of the laws that we’re finally seeing today in the UK. For example, there’s now a law about coercive control. Elizabeth wrote, and this is back in the 1860s.
She said, “When a woman is brought before our man courts and our man juries. And has no bruises, wounds, or marks of violence upon her person to show as a ground of her complaint. It is hard for them to realize that she has any reason to appeal to them for protection. While at the same time, her whole physical system may be writhing in agony from spirit wrongs.”
Elizabeth understood it wasn’t necessarily about physical abuse. A man trying to crush your spirit, a man trying to dismiss what you’re thinking and feeling. In itself, it is enough to make you writhe in agony. She appreciated that because this was an invisible abuse, most people didn’t credit it. They didn’t give it the time of day, the attention it deserved. And the protection that women deserved from these abusers. She was anticipating all of that in the 1860s.
Anne: Did Elizabeth ever go through a period where she wondered if she was crazy, where she thought, maybe it is me. Maybe I am crazy.
Kate: I think remarkably, she didn’t, actually. Her strength of spirit, that sort of confidence in herself and her self belief, is actually what gets her through everybody telling her the rest.
Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Elizabeth’s Mental Strength
Kate: What I will say though is that she’s been shut up in an insane asylum. She’s moved to the worst wards. Because she calls out the doctor on his misogynist, abusive regime. So she’s moved from a pleasant ward to a ward, as they would describe it at the time, full of maniacs.
She is locked up with no promise of release. No hope of ever getting out or ever seeing her children again. And there are moments, she writes, where she comes near the precipice of madness. Not because she was mad originally, but simply because it’s so hard for anyone to endure that continued abuse. And endure that lack of hope without it affecting your mental health.
So she wobbled sometimes on her journey, but I think ultimately the faith in herself and in God is partly what gets her through. What I will say is that she does go on a journey. And something that resonated with me is what she talks about at the start of the book. Feeling small, feeling that nothing she said was worth saying or hearing. And I know I’ve been that woman.
To see Elizabeth grow from that position to someone who eventually becomes a political campaigner. Someone who takes on her husband, takes on her doctor, takes on the world, and to have confidence in herself and in her voice. That journey is so inspirational for me. And others as they wonder, why their ex is lying about what happened.
Empowering Victims To Help Others
Anne: That sounds so exciting. When victims think, I want to help other victims! Maybe be a therapist, or a coach. I want to encourage everyone to take a deep breath, and think about when you were 8 or 9, what did you want to be? Did you want to be an attorney? Did you want to be a florist? We don’t all have to be a therapist, to help victims. Like you could help victims as a florist, or as a horse trainer.
You can advocate for women in anything you do. There are people like Elizabeth, maybe like me or you, who have made our life mission to directly advocate. Through politics or a podcast or other ways. But I want victims to know that you don’t have to run for office, be a therapist or something to affect the world. The best way to make the world a more peaceful place is to get yourself to safety. No matter what your husband or ex is lying about.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. I think that advice about trying to center again on who you are and what you’re passionate about is so important. Because I think often when people have been in those abusive relationships, the abuse wears them down. Their very person is called out so much, is questioned so much that you question yourself.
Actually, to try and re- center it on who you are and what’s important to you is a really important thing. And I think that’s something Elizabeth Packard experiences. She has to go back to basics. And experience of being locked up in that insane asylum for years. It forces her to confront who she is and what matters.
Elizabeth’s Transformation
Kate: Ultimately, she decides that this thing is not the worst thing that could happen. That this thing is actually the best thing that could happen to her. Because she says, “The worst my enemies can do, they have done, and I fear them no more. I am now free to be true and honest. No opposition can overcome me.”
It’s like she has to hit rock bottom, but from that she can then rise like a Phoenix. To become the woman she was always destined to be.
Anne: That is so inspiring. And I want to tell all our listeners that you have your own destiny and mission. You can rise from the ashes and live a life of peace. In Elizabeth’s case, it sounds like the most amazing journey and adventure she was on. Suffering the results of her husband’s lies.
Kate: Yes, yes, I think it was ultimate, and it’s one of those strange things, isn’t it? Had none of this horrific stuff ever happened to her. She would have continued in her home, being a homemaker, mother and wife. Because of these horrifying circumstances, it actually leads her to this completely different public life. Where she travels from coast to coast across America. Changing laws, minds and hearts as she goes. Inspiring women and inspiring men to help women.
And none of that would have happened had her husband not tried to silence her. So, good can come from the bad. I guess there is another chapter that comes after it. And it’s a chapter that you can write yourself and make yourself the heroine of that story. The heroine of whatever journey you’re going to go on.
Protecting Women from ex’s who lie: Elizabeth’s Legal Impact
Anne: I feel like that now in my own personal journey from recovering from abuse. I feel like my life has become this amazing adventure, and I feel immense gratitude for what I’ve been through. I also want to acknowledge that many of our listeners are in this place where they can’t even fathom sunlight again. There is just a tunnel with no light at the end of it. My ex lies about what happened still.
And it feels almost offensive. When people say, I’m so grateful because I’ve been there, or it’s like, why would I be grateful? So, to have examples like Elizabeth, especially from the 1800s, is so inspiring. You talked about the laws that Elizabeth had an influence over, and some of the work that she did here in America. For American women today, or women all over, do we have a direct benefit that we didn’t even realize we had from Elizabeth’s life work?
Kate: Definitely, she was born in Massachusetts. The story takes place in Illinois, because they move west at some point during their marriage. But, yeah, she was born and grew up in Massachusetts. I think many people don’t realize how unjust laws used to be for wives. Even today, we see that society has rules that mean women are on the back foot. And are not the people with power.
Coverture was a law. Which was inherited from England in the 1100s. It was in operation in America at the time Elizabeth was sent to the asylum.
The Legacy Of Coverture
Kate: Coverture meant wives had no legal identities. They were mere shadows of their spouses, legally. So they had no right to their own earnings. They had no right to the custody of their own children. They had no right even to their very liberty.
So her husband sending her away to the asylum was not just enabled by the medical science of the day that said assertive women were mad. The law of the land enabled it. Because the law said a husband could send his wife to an asylum by request, and specifically without the evidence of insanity required in other cases. Some of the laws that Elizabeth tackled and changed were to change that situation.
Safeguards were put in place so that the sane wives could not be sent away by their husbands. She also tackled matters such as a woman’s rights to her own earnings. Because as I said, many of your listeners will know that financial independence can give independence, full stop. If you’re financially tied to a man, it can seem almost impossible to break away. And so Elizabeth was tackling those injustices.
She wanted to make sure that women could not be sent away by their husbands. She wanted to ensure that women could stand on their own two feet, so that they could have the custody of their children.
Elizabeth suffered terribly when it came to caring for her six children. Because she was sent away to the asylum, she had no care of them for the years she was there. And then even when she came out and there was a landmark legal trial, which actually, spoiler alert, declared her sane. Her husband had lied about what happened.
Elizabeth’s Campaign For Change
Kate: Even then, she could still not care for her children. Her husband essentially kidnapped them. And took them to a different state. That was legal, because Elizabeth, as the wife, had no right to custody of her children. Some laws she also campaigned to change and did change were about the custody of children. Mothers were given custody, the same rights as men. They could actually be guardians for their own children.
Initially when she started campaigning, a wife, by law, could not become the guardian of her children. So these are the kind of laws she was tackling. We may think, oh, well, it was the 1800s, you know, that is a very different time then. Actually, my research showed that hangovers from these 19th century laws stretched way into present day and more recent history.
So for example, did you know that it wasn’t until 1974 that American women could get a credit card independently? Before then, a man had to co-sign any credit application.
Anne: What? Sorry, I just have to pause there and be like, what?
Kate: Yep.
Anne: I was born in 1977, so this is three years before I’m born. Thank goodness someone liberated us from that.
Kate: So I mean, I’ve given very specific concrete examples there, but that’s the kind of campaign Elizabeth embarked on. As you say, as well as the concrete laws, she changed in the law books. She is a shining example of an oppressed, abused, gaslit, woman. And told she was crazy.
When Husband’s Lie About What Happened: Stereotypes Of Abuse Victims
Kate: She’s a woman who managed, somehow, against all odds, to rise above that and fight for what she believed in. And to fight for her freedom and the freedom of others.
Anne: I wanted to talk about stereotypes. That abuse victims are like waify women who can’t speak up for themselves. Who have a hard time processing things. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve seen that victims come in all shapes and sizes. All of our personalities are different. So many of us are strong and brave, and that’s how Elizabeth was. And I actually feel like women who are confident, self-assured, and honest can experience even more abuse.
But they don’t look like an abuse victim to people. Because they think, she tells everyone she’s abused. She tells people her husband had an affair. And goes to PTA meetings and runs for city council. How could she be abused? And I wonder if one of the reasons why Elizabeth is so horrifically abused, is because she was outspoken. And because she had this heart of justice. She wasn’t necessarily more abused than other women of her time. And their husbands and ex’s just continue to lie about them and what’s happening.
But I don’t want women to think like, oh, if I spoke up more or if I was a certain way, I wouldn’t get abused. Because in some cases, I think those of us who stick it to the man, if I’m gonna use that term. We almost get more vilified and more told that we’re bad or evil, or that we won’t stay in our lane. Would you say her strength was one of the things her husband found so threatening? And one of the reasons why he abused her so severely?
The Strength Of Outspoken Women
Kate: It definitely is why he abused her so severely. Absolutely. Her outspokenness actually was her downfall. That was why she was sent away. It might seem shocking to listeners today. But actually, psychiatry of the era declared outspoken and assertive women insane.
That was medical science at the time. Backed up the husband in saying that, this strong willed and this outspoken woman, well, she must be mad. That was what the medical textbooks of the era said. Women who have plenty of nerve were literally textbook examples of female insanity. Any educated or assertive woman is seen as liable to go mad. Even a woman who simply read.
I’ve found the records of the insane asylums of the era, and a cause of madness in that time was reading novels. So any woman who uses her brain and tongue is seen at risk of madness. And was liable to be sent away, just as Elizabeth was. Absolutely, her strength was the reason her husband wanted to dispatch her to the asylum.
Anne: Well, and this generational trauma that women feel makes me want to pause and point out that the abuse has worked. Like women say today, I’m not going to say that, because he’ll get angry. Or I can’t do that, because people won’t like me or they’re not going to think I’m okay.
The Societal Pressure To Conform
Anne: I prefer not to swear on this podcast, because I know so many victims have been sworn at. I don’t want to trigger anyone. I’m going to use the word witch, but you know what I’m saying. They call a woman these names. Like she’s such a witch. So other women are like, well, I don’t want to be perceived as this difficult, pushy, aggressive woman.
The overall layering of abuse over generations has these repercussions. Women think I can’t say what I think or do what I think is right. Because people will not perceive me as a nice person or cooperative. Women are worried their husbands will lie and they won’t be believed. I want to be perceived as kind and cooperative.
Kate: It’s so interesting to use the word cooperative there, because my research didn’t just look at the 1860s, but also into the 20th and 21st centuries. A line that stood out to me was from a patient in a mental hospital. She said, if you’re uncooperative, you’re crazy. That is experienced both in the 20th century and in Elizabeth’s world.
The only way they could get out from the asylum was to cooperate, paste on these smiles and simper sweetly. It wasn’t talking about the stuff that was making them angry or sad. They had to be these sort of cut-out dolls. And that line from this woman in the mental hospital in the 20th century, if you’re uncooperative, you’re crazy. That for me just sums up the whole situation. If you’re not towing the line. Whether that’s within a relationship or in society, then you’re crazy.
Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Modern Parallels To Elizabeth’s Story
Kate: And as I say, I just think it’s so interesting you use the word cooperate. Because that was what’s coming up from people who had experienced these things. That’s how they summarize it.
Anne: That is real time happening now. I would say even with women who aren’t “abused” per se by their spouse. But maybe in the workplace or maybe in their church. Where they feel like I can’t be myself or say what I want to say. I have to say it in a certain way.
There are so many restraints. So that you’re not perceived as this difficult, witchy jerk. And the bar is so different for women than men. And nobody perceives that as throwing her under the bus, because she has a different opinion as abuse.
Kate: I’ve had readers contact me saying how haunting they found Elizabeth’s story, because similar things have happened to them. For example, someone calls the police because of a domestic violence incident. They don’t help the woman. They talk to her husband. And they say, “If she’s causing you trouble, we can make arrangements to have her taken away to the mental hospital.” This was from 2017. A reader emailed me about that situation.
I personally interviewed people from the 1980s, for example, where an abusive husband sent his wife to a mental institution, which is the definition of institutional abuse. for several months, his word against hers, and they believed him. Even though her husband was lying about what happened. She was sent away. We think of it as history, but actually just from those few anecdotes that I have encountered. Personally, I think these things are still happening.
Elizabeth’s Enduring Legacy
Anne: Gabby Petito is the most recent, widely publicized case. You’ve got a film of the police talking to her boyfriend, who is abusing her. The boyfriend is calm and collected. He says, “Oh, she’s just a little crazy,” essentially. And the police say, “Oh, yeah, we get that. Just separate for the night.” Then she ends up murdered.
Kate: Hysterical, that’s the other one, hysterical.
Anne: Oh yes, hysterical!
Kate: Which of course has its roots in hysteria, hysterectomy. It’s all tied together etymologically, linking women and madness.
Anne: It is maddening. That men have been lying about women forever.
Kate: It was my draft title for the book, actually, Maddening, because the situation is maddening for Elizabeth. But as I say, what’s inspiring about her is the way she manages to rise above it and fight back. And, you know, talking about what we were just talking about, I want to share with your listeners another quote from Elizabeth.
She herself was a brilliant writer. She kept this secret journal in the asylum, which I’ve been able to draw on for writing The Woman They Could Not Silence. And she has become The Woman They Could Not Silence, because we hear her words through the years. And Elizabeth said, “Women are made to fly and soar, not to creep and crawl as the haters of our sex want us to.” And I think, as you say, we sometimes try to switch ourselves into boxes.
But if we can, we need to gather ourselves and fly and soar, as Elizabeth Packard managed to do. I hope people will find her story inspirational.
They Say We’re Crazy, Because it Keeps Them in Power
Anne: We’ve talked about how her experience is relevant today. Many women are experiencing their husband’s and ex’s lying about what’s happening. It’s been going on for a very long time. A century and a half later, let’s pretend like Elizabeth shows up. She can see what’s going on now. Like if she could give us some kind of motivational speech, or if she could point out something that maybe we’re not even aware of. What do you think she would say to us?
Kate: I think she’d be disappointed that things haven’t changed enough from her time. I think she writes about wanting a female president and things like that. We’re still not there yet in terms of society being more equal. But what I think she would actually do is straighten her shoulders. I think she’d pick up her skirts and go into battle. She’d go into battle for all of us. She was that kind of person. A review in Australia actually described her as a battering ram in a bonnet.
And that was Elizabeth Packard. So I don’t know exactly what direct advice she would have. And in fact, Elizabeth was actually the kind of person who wouldn’t impart advice. She would lead by example.
She would go into battle for us, I think. I think she would choose whichever battle she thought was the most relevant. She would dedicate herself to make sure wrongs are overturned and justice is done for everyone. That’s who she was.
Anne: What you said makes me feel good. My nickname in high school was the battle axe.
Kate: I love it.
Anne: And I loved it. I found it to be very endearing, and I want other women to feel that same way.
He Lies & Says I’m Crazy To Silence Me
Anne: If someone says you’re too stubborn, instead of being like, no, I’m not, let me get back in my box. Be like, of course I am. I’m stubborn for truth. I’m stubborn for justice. Just like Elizabeth did. You don’t have to back away from that. Like, I’m crazy because this is an insane situation. And anyone in this situation might be crazy because it’s insane and it’s not right.
Kate: Yeah, exactly. And that brings to mind, you know, some of the stuff said to Elizabeth. She eventually hated her husband for putting her in the asylum. This is cited as evidence of her madness. Because a wife is supposed to be loving and caring.
She is angry with her husband. And that is cited as evidence of her madness. Because a natural wife, a healthy well wife, wouldn’t behave in that way. As you say, how do you respond to that? You know, anger inspiring insane situation, but these are the kind of things Elizabeth was up against.
I just want to thank you for this opportunity. I’m such an advocate for Elizabeth Packard’s story. I think any of your listeners who read her story will be shocked by what happens to her. Medical science, the law, and everything are stacked against her. But the inspiration of how she defies the odds, the inspiration of how she finds herself in the midst of this darkness and this oppression. I hope that shines a light for everybody.
A Final Quote From Elizabeth
Kate: I just want to finish by sharing with you another quotation from Elizabeth. She said, “I will not hide my light under a bushel. I will set it upon a candlestick that it may give light to others.” And I hope anyone who reads her story in The Woman They Could Not Silence, I hope it lights your life.
Anne: Kate, thank you so much for your work. And helping us understand why it’s worked for men to lie about women. Again, you can find her book on our books page. Or you can find it on Amazon.
Thank you again, Kate, for all your hard work on behalf of women everywhere.
Kate: It’s my pleasure. Thank you for this opportunity.
If Your Husband Has No Empathy – Norine’s Story
Jul 11, 2023
If you’re like many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, you’ve spent hours scouring the internet, researching why your husband has no empathy for you.
Is it mental illness? A history of trauma? Is it physiological? Due to addiction or pornography use?
Or is it a choice?
Maybe he’s emotionally abusive? To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Nora is on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast with Anne, taking a deep dive into why some men abuse their partners. And refuse to connect in a compassionate, healthy way.
All The (Wrong) Reasons…
Many women in t have tried to find the cause for their partner’s cold, distant, abusive behaviors. That do not include abuse – hopeful that their partner can change or be fixed so that the marriage can stay intact. Therapists, clergy, internet research and others may point them in the direction of:
Mental illness
Addiction
Alcoholism
Anger problems
Pornography use
Personality disorders
Childhood trauma
Stress
Poor examples of marriage/relationships
While abusive men may have any combination of these. Abuse is a choice that men make – not a condition that they cannot control. So alcoholism, for example, may exacerbate abuse, but it is not the cause of abuse.
Abusing You Is His Choice: Now What?
Understanding that he is choosing to abuse you. Despite whatever his “reason” is or a “reason” his therapist may give you.
Victims may feel trapped, wondering how to proceed. When a disorder, addiction, or other external issue is to blame, victims get distracted from their own emotional safety.
Women seeking education regarding an abusive partner may benefit from these resources:
Transcript: What To Do When Your Husband Has No Empathy
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Norine. She’s a victim of betrayal and emotional, psychological, and financial abuse. Her ex-husband is a former police officer and serving a sentence in federal prison after a child abuse material conviction. Sometimes people call that child pornography, but we know it’s child abuse material.
Anne: As women are trying to figure out what is going on, like is he an addict, does he have a personality disorder? Sometimes CSAT therapists start start going down that path, so I think many women will be interested in your story. And the ways you have processed this.
Norine: I’ve thought, you know, personality disorder, narcissism, abuser, and he was abusive. But at the time, I’d only done as much research as I could and loved him for as long as I wanted to fix things. He was involved in a shooting incident at work. As a person in law enforcement, I assumed PTSD, but he said, “No, you’re my problem.”
Therapy & Misguided Support With Assessment
Norine: So, my ex got his own therapist, wonderful, through work. He told them, I don’t need support, I need this because my wife is so awful to me. My husband had no empathy. That therapist even called me in to talk to me and didn’t believe me. He dismissed me. He invited me in and then didn’t want to hear from me. I think, again, he was looking for me to be the problem. There’s something wrong with her.
He spent our entire marriage thinking any emotion I had was wrong, so I was just whining. And didn’t seem to understand that I had feelings, he had no empathy. He wasn’t capable of compromising often. Context blindness was another aspect, it was the forest for the trees issue, which he couldn’t see. He couldn’t see what I call the connective tissue between decisions we made or things we were arguing about.
He cannot take responsibility for his own actions. That’s one of the primary issues. He believes he’s always right, despite plenty of evidence. I was hurt by the time he spent on his computer, even if I wasn’t aware of what he was doing. I was just trying to, it’s what everybody views as a label, but I wanted an answer, a reason. So I started with personality disorder. I said, can you look into this? I want to help him, I want our family back together. This wasn’t to label him and…
Anne: It was to solve a problem.
Norine: Right, the assessment I booked it and I paid for it. We drove to the assessment together. I went home with him.
He Received A Diagnosis
Norine: And yes, buying into this idea that oh, it’s a disorder. We can address this now, because we know what it is. I hadn’t identified it as abuse, from my point of view at that point.
My husband has no empathy. He blames me for everything, what I’m not doing. I didn’t see it as abuse. There was no discussion of that, and I wasn’t surprised for that to be the case. Because law enforcement chose this therapist. And that’s another bullet on my list of people who weren’t safe people to go to, because they exacerbated the problem.
Anne: The things that you just said on that list are the traits of abusers who do not have a disorder. When he received his diagnosis, how did he think about it?
Norine: We didn’t talk about it much, so I don’t know fully. But the next day it was, you know, this is not me. You’re just looking for an excuse to deflect and minimize your responsibility for the problem we have. And the situation we’re in now.
It was right back to the script he followed for the entire time. That I had done something wrong, and I needed to toe the line and get my behavior back in order. So that we could put our marriage back together again, and that I wouldn’t take responsibility.
Anne: Yeah.
Searching For The Cause When Your Husband Has No Empathy
Anne: This is something that I think is super important for every single listener of this podcast. I say it repeatedly, but I want it to hit home for everyone. It does not matter what the cause is, if it’s abusive to you, it’s abusive. It breaks our hearts, because it could be something that is completely not their fault. Someone could be a super healthy person and get like a head injury, for example.
And their head injury alters their personality and causes them to be abusive. In that case, you can, with compassion, look at them. And say, this is such an unfortunate situation that they had this head injury and it caused them to be abusive. But that doesn’t mean the abuse is okay. If you’re harmed, it’s okay to get to safety regardless of the cause.
That’s really hard, because women think if they can figure out why he’s doing these harmful behaviors to their family. This is a powerful truth about emotional abuse. If they understand why their husband is not empathetic. They might not use the word abuse, they think. If they can figure out why, then we can solve it. As you tried to get help and explain what had happened to people at the time, you didn’t have the words. And so the thing you were talking about the most was a diagnosis.
Norine: Yes, and thank you for saying that. Because if there’s one take home, let’s say six years out from the major crisis. Is that I have come to understand it’s abuse. I amplify that message that it’s abuse, and you need to take care of you and your children.
He Plays The Blame Game & Seeking Answers
Anne: Many men would not go in for a psych evaluation, or some sort of testing. So what prompted the test to get a diagnosis?
Norine: It was, of course, my idea. Because I came out of our second couple’s therapist of three where the therapist told him, “Her needs were important to you, and you wanted to honor those.” And his immediate response was, well, no. I thought she was going to leave me, so I had to. It was so devoid of any sort of care for me, or even an awareness that he should be at least putting on a show that he cared.
And it just hit me wrong, and that’s where I went down the rabbit hole and hit on the term alexithymia. Which is this difficulty connecting with the feelings of others and identifying them. So I pushed, and he was I think so wholly convinced that I was the problem, that he was willing to do that. Because it would prove that I was the issue, and there was nothing wrong with him.
The fall apart stage was after the birth of my second child. When I decided I wanted a third child. And he didn’t want one. It was the same fight as through all those years. But I held my ground with what I wanted for the first time, thinking that surely this time I will convince him. He did agree. And so I got pregnant.
So we were on a family vacation, and he was cold and distant. My husband was so cruel had no empathy. Then said, “You blackmailed me into having this child, and I can’t accept it.” And so here I was pregnant with two little guys, and he was ready to move out.
Discovering The Truth
Norine: Honestly, I did not learn until two days after I testified at his federal trial that confirmed 100 percent, that he was cheating. But when he left the house, he originally said I was sticking him with the children as much as possible. At every spare moment he had, and he didn’t want them. I said, okay, I’ll keep them. Then suddenly he wanted them. And he was taking my children off to hang out with his mistress.
I suspected, but I kept putting it aside because I wanted to believe it wasn’t happening, and we could still fix the marriage. That was months and months before I got really suspicious. He said we didn’t have enough money for a third child, but he spent a lot of money.
That’s when I logged into his computer looking for evidence of whatever was going on with him. And that’s when I found quite a bit of exploitative material. And then I thought it was being deleted from the hard drive. So I set it aside, turned it off, disconnected it, and still wanted to work on the marriage. His behavior was then erratic.
Through this whole period, he would disappear with my kids. And that’s how he took them someplace, and I thought he was taking them for good. He was just doing various suspicious things. Like putting a trash can in front of my car, in the driveway in front of the garage door.
So I would have to get out and move it when I opened the garage door. Or trash the house and say the dogs spread garbage around. So he was starting to get really manipulative in that way.
When Your Husband Has No Empathy: Forensic Evidence & Legal Battles
Norine: Ultimately, I said to myself, I have to investigate what’s on this computer. This is where I think it connects with what you talk about here on your podcast. I thought surely the courts will say, well, this man has tens of thousands of images on his computer, that he’s downloading all the time. He can’t be an effective parent, and I would get custody and the kids would be safe.
So I sent the computer off for forensics, still not letting myself believe any more than moments at a time. And it came back with CSAM on it, my husband got caught using CSAM.
Anne: So CSAM is the term Child Abuse Material, So how did your experiences with DV and counseling professionals, law enforcement, the courts exacerbate your trauma?
Norine: In so many ways. Whenever I think of this now that I’ve been listening to your podcast, I think of one episode you did and I’ve listened to them out of sequence. So I don’t know how long ago it was, but it was when you were so raw, honest, and vulnerable. About having been in court and having gotten nothing of what you wanted and needed for you and your kids in terms of custody. That feeling came right to the surface for me.
Again, I don’t think I cried so hard as I have in family courts. Because people have not recognized this idea of describing these experiences, and not believed by friends, family, and professionals. And I faced it over and over again.
Emotional Turmoil In Family Courts
Norine: When he was arrested, the people in his department went to the FBI agent, and they said, oh, you know, of course she set him up, right? He didn’t do this. And the FBI agent said, go read the filing documents. And then I think some of them believed, but they weren’t a resource for me. I even have one domestic violence counselor, because I’ve been to several of the centers in my various towns, and one said, oh, well it’s very nuanced.
Because I went to them at one point thinking, am I the abuser? Is this all my fault? Did I do something wrong? Oh, it can be very nuanced. Because she didn’t hear anything I said that made her say, oh, yes, he’s abusive. So there I was already in this fog of self doubt, and that set me back.
The courts just don’t have space to listen to any of the categories you discuss in your podcast. They’re so focused on, this must be two parties who contribute equally to a problematic dynamic. And they’re both acting childish or irresponsibly. We’re just going to shut this down. Because the best thing for children, except for extreme circumstances that we can’t identify here. Is their access to both parents. Autism doesn’t make people abusive. It also doesn’t make people bad parents.
It has to be about the behaviors and traits, and I’m not sure I ever got that bulleted list together for myself. Of what is going on here that makes him unsafe, because it was so nebulous. That’s the reason why I’m not believed.
A Husband with No Empathy Neglects the Children
Norine: If I say, he called me up and had custody of the kids, and he hadn’t fed them dinner at 8 o’clock. My husband has no empathy for the kids either. They were all under the age of 7. People were like, well, that’s not child abuse to not feed them until 8 o’clock at night. I just kind of felt stuck at the how do I demonstrate that this is problematic behavior regardless of its label.
And then I got the deus ex machina situation, well, he’s been lifted out of here. He’s clearly unsafe because he’s looking at CSAM, but I have colleagues whose partners don’t do that, and they’re just as unsafe in other ways.
Anne: Yeah, a lot of people said, oh, your ex got arrested for abuse. I have a guilty verdict with a 14 month probation and a protective order. And the courts didn’t see that as dangerous around children either. It’s so interesting when you try to define these sort of psychological and emotional abusive things, they’re like, well, he just isn’t into trombone, when I say he will not support my son in his trombone.
Things that when you’re in it, you know, how abusive it is. But from the outside, they just think, oh, people parent differently. There are different styles. So it’s also interesting that there’s no abuse diagnosis. There’s no space for that. Even though the courts say there is. It’s crazy making for those of us who have tried to get our kids to safety.
Norine: You know, I read the entire transcript three years out. I testified, and then I promptly left the courtroom, never to return because I didn’t want to hear it. But I felt ready to read it and understand what I’m up against when he’s released. At a sentencing hearing, the federal court judge who sat there and heard all his testimony and all the lies he told.
That’s all explicitly on record. You perjured yourself, you blamed your ex wife, you are at fault and you will not admit it. During his house arrest period, he was not to go near me or the children. In the next breath, he said, I released this hold. You can have unsupervised visitation with your children if the family courts allow it.
Anne: And the family courts don’t understand emotional and psychological abuse. They don’t understand these issues of coercion, safety, unless they’re in prison or there’s some kind of severe bruise.
Norine: Right, it wasn’t enough that the content he was watching, I will not get graphic, but incest was a theme. So how would you say my children are safe?
Anne: I had a guardian ad litem look over it when I was saying he was unsafe. And say, I don’t understand why she’s saying her ex is unsafe. He seems safe to me.
Norine: He looked at me two weeks before I gave birth to our third child and said, I want nothing to do with this baby. And I told a guardian ad litem. She said, well, he wants to be a parent now, so we need to let him.
Struggles With Friends & Family
Anne: Let’s talk about friends and family, apart from counseling professionals in the court. How did they see this? Did they believe and support you? Or realize your husband has no empathy?
Norine: On the side of my friends, you know this, and listeners probably know this. That you learn who your true friends are. You learn who your tough friends are, because it’s not easy to process. For the people who can hang with you and listen to it, they’re your people. My friends group, I have some of my longstanding friends. But a lot of my tribe now are newer people who came in when I was in the midst of the story. Or post the story and were okay with me telling and retelling it.
And visiting it as I need to. My family not as much. My ex’s family, I suspect they knew about the behavior. Because it didn’t start during my marriage. It started in his tween or teen years, and I think they’ve been covering for him. They’re a family with some social status and money. They’ve funded all his lawsuits in the family court, all his federal trial, an appeal, and whatever legal steps he’s taking right now.
They supported him, and in fact his parents, petitioned me for visitation of the kids. They were already taking steps before he was even arrested. So to me that said, they knew I had his computer. And it was only a matter of time before I figured out what was on it and before something happened.
So they pursued visitation rights, got them. And the opening questions when I was cross examined at his federal trial were about how I was keeping the grandchildren from their grandparents.
My Husband Has No Empathy: Ongoing Accusations & Letters
Norine: Because the whole narrative for him was that I was a vindictive spouse who just wanted the kids and money and to make his life miserable.
Anne: So this was at the federal trial for his child abuse material case. They brought up that you were withholding the kids from the grandparents because you were vindictive, to blame you. Is he still doing the, you set him up?
Norine: Yes. I mean, he hasn’t actually said those words. He sends bimonthly letters to my children and still says, I’m pursuing this aspect of my case again. It’s going back to the courts and they’re looking at it, and they passed the first step, which is important because it shows that I’m telling the truth. The way I read it, it’s plausible deniability.
Well, you can’t prove beyond a doubt that it was me, because it could have been her because she knew this password. Or he’d make up lies just to make it seem as if I could be responsible. He keeps insisting they have not proven that I did not know it was there, that I didn’t put it there. That’s because I had a shared computer and we shared passwords, It could be me. So he’s not let go of that no.
It puts my children in this position. We can talk about my children. It’s, you know, I’m laughing now, now I’m in this laughable space. But my kids are in this, and this is not funny, unfortunately. Because he blames me, and it’s on public record. As is his infidelity. He’s putting my kids in the position of having to believe one or the other of us, because it’s either or.
Anne: Ugh, it’s a nightmare. It’s a nightmare.
He’s Currently In Prison & Future Concerns
Anne: So he’s currently in prison. How long will he be in prison?
Norine: Another two and a half years, roughly. A little bit more than that.
Anne: And I imagine that for the moment you’re like, okay, we have a little break. But you have anxiety and worry about him getting out.
Norine: Exactly. And I thank you for validating that. And I think that’s where the friends network breaks down a little bit. Why do you keep worrying about this? Why don’t you just live your life? Worry about that later, you can’t predict the future, so many things. And I don’t live in that moment every single day of my life. But I have to be prepared for it, because there’s no doubt. This is his entire life right now, standing by that he’s innocent and planning to come out and be super dad.
Anne: Oh, it is. It is really, really rough. So in addition to your justifiable concern and worry about when this horrible non empathetic man he gets out of prison. How has his behavior affected your children in other ways?
Norine: He sends letters. Every other week, the court ordered he’d be allowed to do that. But his letters are so out of a fantasy world that it’s confusing for them. He talks about going to the beach and how he has neighbors. And he had this special meal for dinner and all these wonderful things happening. It’s a sanitized version of reality that’s confusing for them. Because they say, doesn’t he know that we know where he is?
It’s threatening to pull them into his way of being. That’s not healthy. So we have to work against that when we’re living as a family or working with their support system.
Moving Forward & Keeping Privacy
Norine: And then unfortunately, it’s perhaps forever unknown whether he actually harmed them in any way. They were fairly young, and I’ve had dealings with child protective services who have investigated this. So my kids have been put through that too.
A positive is that we’ve moved a couple of times since this all happened. So we no longer live in the town where this took place, and they were young enough that their friends weren’t talking about it at great length. There’s a chance they can keep it private in their school and friend circles if they so choose. So that’s a positive.
Anne: Oh, it’s really sad and disheartening to realize that the justice system is more about the rights of perpetrators than protecting victims. Making sure the victims are safe is not high on the priority list. So I’m so sorry you got that sort of hanging out there in space. When was your divorce final?
Norine: It took a while. I filed and then worked on the marriage for another year, and it finally was finalized. I don’t know what compelled him to sign the paperwork, because part of his profile is also to be demand avoidant. And I don’t know if he wanted to look good for the courts. But he finally let me go. So it’s completely done. It took so long, in part because my attorney advised to wait until we found out the outcome of his trial. Before we moved to finalize things.
Men who have No empathy is a red flag: Experiences Of Dating After Abuse
Anne: So since you’ve been divorced and dating again, can you talk about how your experience with abuse and betrayal, and also the nightmare of the court system. How have your experiences affected your dating life?
Norine: Yeah, I’m vigilant. As, as one would be, and probably many of your listeners are, if they’ve stepped into this realm. I’d look for signs. The signs of abuse pop out. I’ve come to be an expert at reading a dating app profile for red flags. But even so, I would say I’ve ended up in personality disorder relationships.
So I stepped back when I found myself in those situations and took a break, because I had to be honest with myself. And say, I didn’t have a baseline for what a normal relationship was like because we started our relationship in college. So I entered the dating realm for the first time as a true adult.
I remember having this moment at the time. I was given estimates of what content was on his computer, and they’re saying 50 to 100 thousand images. And I looked at my therapist, who was a man, and I said, is that a lot? Because it was so normalized, men look at this stuff. Every man looks at it. So it was just what men do. So that another man was shocked by what he was doing, that my husband had no empathy, was a wake up call for me.
And I had to be mindful of that. I had to learn where to set my boundaries. Based on what my expectations could be. And to learn that I could set my expectations as high as I wanted. And I did. My ex husband has no empathy, and I don’t want to repeat that.
Finding Hope In Healthy Relationships
Norine: And I am actually in a wonderful relationship right now. So I listen to these stories all the time of women who aren’t ready. And I celebrate them that they know they’re not ready. And I listened to women who are hurt again, and I hurt for them because I’ve hurt too. Anybody who wants to be in a relationship again, I want that for them because I believe it’s possible.
Anne: Yeah, when I was with my ex and I was in this addiction recovery world, and helping him with his addiction, I genuinely felt like. All men are addicts. Now that I’m out of that and have been introduced, and I interact with many healthy men, I have more hope than ever. Personally, I don’t want to be in a relationship, but simultaneously, I agree that it is possible.
I don’t want abuse to ruin what they want and care about. So many abusers ruin their victim’s faith, for example. They want a faith in God, or a faith in anything or something. That gets ruined for them, or a belief that they could have a healthy relationship.
Norine: Yeah, I think many of us end up in these relationships because we’re kind, caring, flexible people. That want to be invested. There are plenty of other ways to invest all your kindness and love. Youand you can put it into things like podcasting, children, so many things. Yeah, but if that’s what people want, it’s absolutely doable.
Anne: Yeah, I’ve met quite a few advocates who are now married to healthy men after an abusive relationship. And one of the things they tell me, and I don’t know if you would agree, is it’s so easy. So different than when your husband has no empathy.
Marriage With A Healthy Husband Is Not Difficult
Anne: Like you don’t even know how easy it can be. That also makes me happy, because that whole marriage is work. And it has to be, I’m not saying marriage isn’t work, is sort of a way to manipulate women into thinking that a marriage has to be hard and really difficult. And rationalize when your husband has no empathy. When with a healthy person, it maybe doesn’t need to be that difficult. How do you feel about that?
Norine: Oh my goodness, that speaks to my experience so well. My partner and I joke about this. We will mock language of what the conflict might be. I bought a deck of relationship questions for Christmas, and we snicker our way through it. Because we’ve already discussed three quarters of the content on these cards.
I think it’s meant to prompt like deep conversation. We already did it on our own. And anything that delves into areas of conflict, we snicker because we don’t feel like we’re ever going to be in that position. Because we’re so open. Communication, which was the biggest challenge in my marriage, is so simple. Not like when your husband has no empathy.
I think, you know, arguing could be healthy in a relationship. I believe that, but we don’t get to that point because the communication is so good. It’s just discovering something that we all deserve, and it’s so exciting.
Anne: It is exciting, yeah. That’s good news. And I’m so happy that you found that. That’s awesome.
Tools For Safety & Communication: Living Free Strategies
Anne: In terms of abuse in general, but also specifically with your abuser who is in prison right now. There maybe flying monkeys or others who don’t understand our situation. When our husband has no empathy or natural care for us, what tools and strategies do you use to keep yourself safe?
Norine: My favorite genuine tool, you’ve mentioned on your podcast and used it. I use the Our Family Wizard app to communicate with my abusive ex in-laws. That allows you to document and timestamp all communication. It’s all in one place. You access it when you want and need to, and feel safe doing so. There can never be any misunderstanding about whether a message was received, and what it said, because it’s all documented.
Anne: Yeah, the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop builds the foundation for safe strategies, thoughts, boundaries and communication strategies and also teaches women how to use Our Family Wizard to their advantage.
There are several key reasons to use Our Family Wizard. One of them is that you only have one point of entry. Where the abusive person can contact you. Because they can’t contact you on your phone or in an email. And you have everything written down and it’s all in one place, like you said.
Ex Husband Has No Empathy, Dealing With Manipulative Communication
Norine: Another thing related to communication, and I hope your listeners will understand this. This is certainly something that I struggled with a lot. I believe my ex dog whistles. So the idea that only dogs hear a certain frequency of a dog whistle, my ex will say things in letters to my children. That are designed, I believe, to get a reaction from me that no one else would see as problematic. Still, my ex husband has no empathy for me or the kids.
And of course, that works beautifully in the courtroom too. I would have panic attacks every time one of the letters hit the mailbox. Because I felt I had to read them, because I’m the line of defense between my children and whatever content is in this letter. But I have friends, they’re fabulous in terms of the gallows humor. I send them a copy of the letter, and we read it together.
They help me remove myself from getting hooked into that feeling of being controlled by that message. And just finding the humor in the moment. It’s a small thing, but you know, it hits my mailbox every other week. So I’m constantly dealing with them, even though I’ve exited the relationship. I still have to engage in this way, so I make sure it’s done in a way that supports me.
Anne: It is so sad to me that the justice system does not recognize that an abuser can still abuse their victim from prison.
Norine: Yes, yes.
Anne: The fact that he’s allowed, and not only allowed, but also the court protects his letters to your kids. Like you said, I’ve exited the relationship, but I am still forced to interact with him and he’s in prison.
Challenges With In-Laws Creating Chaos
Anne: If it was a stranger who had, let’s say, raped you once on the street. And then let’s say he got 15 years prison for that. If you said he writes me a letter every other week, they would be like whoa, whoa, whoa. You should not be reading those letters. He should not be sending these to you.
Norine: Exactly, I mean, he’s shored up this line of attack too. Because that’s another reason why I believe my ex-in-laws are in this picture. They have weekly phone calls with my children, and they engage in the same behavior. They have the right to send gifts, so they create their own chaos. I won’t necessarily go into that, but yeah, we all know as the abuse victims that these are tactics they use. But they fly right under the radar.
You know, I’ve also thought about this, with respect to the in-laws having access. I thought the same thing as you just said. If my ex husband and I were together and on the same page and decided our parents or in-laws were toxic. We could say, no thank you.
You cannot spend time with my children. But because he and I do not see eye to eye, my in-laws get to step in and create whatever scenario they want. I feel like if I had a dog, I would have more say about what choices I make about my pet than about my children and their safety. The only hope is for our children to age out of the process. And they’re trusted to make their own good choices about their future and relationships with their parents.
Dealing With Public Exposure & Its Effects
Anne: One aspect of your story is that some of it was publicized in the news. How do you think having it in the news, even if you didn’t know people. Just knowing that it was out there, how did that affect you? And how has that had an ongoing effect on you?
Norine: There’s nothing like your partner cheating on you and then having everybody know. I’m grateful that I didn’t find that out until I had processed the possibility, and I was beyond wanting to be with him. Because my ex husband has no empathy and he is trying to actively harm us. But it’s hard to think about my children reading it, and my almost 12 year old right on developmental target has been Google searching.
So we’ve been talking a lot about it. I had news reporters in my driveway. There was social media chatter. It’s hard to stomach. I created a healthy distance from it. But it’s so interesting to watch the people who said she shouldn’t have said anything, and she’s ruined her kids’ lives. And why didn’t she say something earlier? Which I couldn’t because I didn’t know. But it was misreported. I think that’s a hard thing, but an interesting thing because.
We’re all consumers of the news, and we read a story and pass judgment. Or don’t, I guess, but based on our life experience and what we read. And how discriminating we are in the kind of news we consume. But when you have that experience of mistruths, it shows how often the news gets it wrong. Especially because they can’t comprehend that some of these husbands have no empathy.
Believing Victims & Seeking Justice When An Ex Husband Has No Empathy
Norine: So I try to process everything I hear now, even more deliberately. But going forward, part of me wants to speak out, continue speaking out, and put the story out there. I also want to be shut down by my ex, because he certainly doesn’t think I’m speaking the truth. So I have these mixed feelings about what it means to have it be public. I want to make good use of it, but it might work against me in some ways.
Anne: I wonder when he does get out, the climate has maybe shifted a little bit in terms of the media, thank goodness. People seem to believe victims more than they have historically.
Norine: I thought it was super interesting that the jury convicted him. And I worked with victim witness specialists in the courts. They said, yeah, when the jury heard him, he’s unfaithful, and the way he was treating you. Your testimony was credible. He was not winning over many people. And they said, particularly the mothers on the jury, they saw you just trying to protect your children.
So I don’t know if the climate makes a difference, because ultimately it comes down to who’s on the jury or who’s on the judge’s bench. I think that has a lot more to do with it.
Anne: Yeah, it’s too bad that in our divorces, we don’t have a jury of moms.
Norine: That’d be fabulous.
Anne: That would be awesome.
Messages Of Support & Community
Norine: I just want to reiterate the kind of message you share on the podcast all the time. Get to safety, you’re not crazy. Something we say in group a lot. I believe you, this is happening, trust your instinct. All those things we say them over and over again. They’re powerful, say them to yourself and trust yourself. That’s ultimately how you can get to safety. So, don’t discount you.
Anne: You are amazing, and all of our listeners are amazing. It is a big warning sign if your husband has no empathy. You have been through the most horrific, nightmarish experiences, all of us have, so many women are in that super, traumatic time. And the wonderful thing is that as a community, we support each other. We help each other, and give each other spiritual hugs or hugs from across Apple podcasts.
Knowing that there is a whole community of women who completely and totally understand. We are all different and look different. We all sound different and made different choices. But the things we have experienced, the patterns of lying and gaslighting, deceit and blame, all of that is so similar. I’m so grateful to not be in this alone. And also grateful that as a community, we are becoming more and more healthy. We can teach our children and hopefully one home at a time. We’re making this world a better place.
Norine: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. And for all that you do.
3 Ways Your Husband May Be Gaslighting You with Dr. Robin Stern
Jul 04, 2023
“Is my husband gaslighting me?” If you’ve asked yourself this question, here are three types of gaslighting to watch for.
Dr. Robin Stern, director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, details the three types of gaslighters and the tactics they use to make YOU feel crazy.
The glamorous gaslighter grooms victims by using manipulative kindness – a tactic that lures victims into believing they’re loved and safe.
The Good Guy Gaslighter
The good guy gaslighter uses covert abuse to condition everyone, including the victim, into believing that the victim is the problem, rather than his deceit and manipulation.
The Intimidator Gaslighter
The intimidator gaslighter uses overt verbal abuse, bullying, and physical abuse.
Anne: I am delighted to have Dr. Robin Stern on today’s episode. She is the co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. And a senior consultant at the Yale New Haven Hospital. She is a licensed psychoanalyst with 30 years of experience treating individuals, couples, and families.
She’s the author of The Gaslight Effect, How to Spot and Survive Hidden Manipulation Others Use to Control Your Life, and The Gaslight Effect Recovery Guide Your Personal Journey Toward Healing from Emotional Abuse. Dr. Stern has been a guest on many local and national radio shows and has traveled widely to lecture on emotional intelligence, women in leadership, and relational bullying. Welcome, Dr. Stern.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you so much, Anne. Thank you so much for having me on this show and for doing this work to help women. I’m delighted.
Anne: Let’s start with the definition of gaslighting, because a husband gaslighting is crazy making. Since you’re the gaslighting expert.
Dr. Robin Stern: So gaslighting is a form of manipulation in a power dynamic. Where the person more powerful seeks to sow seeds of doubt in the person less powerful, to lead them to question their memory, sanity, and character.
Anne: What is their intent in doing this?
Dr. Robin Stern: Most of the time gaslighters intent is to destabilize their gaslightee. To cause them to wonder if they’re going crazy, and stay connected to them. So that they, the gaslighter, become the source of stability and reality. And undermine the ground they’re standing on.
Anne: Are you familiar with the Allegory of the Cave by Plato?
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes, of course.
Using The Allegory Of The Cave To Describe Gaslighting
Anne: We use that allegory of the cave quite often, and instead of having the fire, and then people walking in between the fire with the shadows. We make the man the fire itself, and he’s holding up these objects. So basically, he wants to be the person who defines reality. Oh, one other thing, Dr. Stern. I talk in a gender segregated way, because this particular podcast is specifically for women who have been emotionally and psychologically abused by men.
Dr. Robin Stern: That works for me, because even though gaslighting happens in any relationship, the pairing I’ve seen most often is where the man is the gaslighter and the woman is the gaslightee.
Anne: So we use that allegory where he is setting himself up as the person who’s defining reality, keeping her oppressed, and stuck. And that’s interesting that you also say they want to define reality for this person.
Dr. Robin Stern: More than that, in a moment of feeling out of control, a gaslighter will go to gaslighting to feel more cohesive, grounded, and in control. And so it’s not just, I want to do this. It’s I need to do this to feel in control of the moment and the relationship.
Anne: Control, it always comes back to that. I have heard some people say, “Well, everyone gaslights, but just some people are more dangerous than others.” This example that maybe a mom might gaslight a child into, like, eating a salad. What would be the main difference between telling a child, like, “Oh, of course you like vegetables. Eat your vegetables.” When they’re like, I don’t like vegetables.
What would be the difference between that and someone intentionally deceitful?
The Husband Gaslighting Her Is Intentionally Deceitful
Dr. Robin Stern: Just what you said. There is an intent to deceive to maintain control with a husband gaslighting.. And most importantly, it becomes the core dynamic of the relationship. In a moment, a mom might gaslight a child either to eat a salad or eat their vegetables. Or my favorite is when you go into a grocery store and you see a mom grab the child’s hand and say, “You’re not hungry, you’re tired.” Sometimes you’ll see a kid saying, I don’t know, “I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I’m really hungry.”
And then the mom says it again. I don’t know, maybe you’re right, maybe I’m tired. So, the message is not just vegetables are good for you, or you’re not hungry, you’re tired. It’s, you don’t know what you feel. I know what you feel. In that way, it’s similar to more diabolical gaslighting, if you will. For the most part, I would say there is not an intent when parents are gaslighting to cause harm. I’m guilty of it myself, I’m sure.
My kids, who are grown up now, will once in a while say, uh huh, I think you’re trying to gaslight me. But in the gaslight or gaslightee dynamic, that causes people pain. That causes people to feel like their souls are being destroyed and their identity is being destroyed. There is that intent to destabilize someone and lead someone to deny their own reality. Even something they actually saw or heard in favor of the lie or the made up reality of the gaslighter.
So the gaslighter can control the reality. Men who are, for example, having an affair or seeking pornography to gratify themselves. Those are things that most men don’t want their partners to know about.
Lies & Diversion Away From What Is Really Happening
Dr. Robin Stern: So they will lie, and then they will gaslight. So, the wife or girlfriend can be kept off track of what’s going on. It’s very common. “So, honey, you know, I haven’t been able to reach you when you say you’re working late at the office. Like, I’m nervous. What’s going on? Are you seeing someone? Are you doing something? It’s just not been …, so honey, what’s wrong with you?”
The response is, “Why are you so paranoid?” And that happens once, and maybe the woman even thinks. You know, I am feeling a little paranoid. It still doesn’t answer where he was, so of course it already threw her off track. But by the second time, or the third time, or the nth time he says, you’re paranoid. When she asks him a question he does not want to answer. The gaslightee thinks to herself, maybe he’s right. Maybe that is a problem for me, and maybe that is our problem.
Anne: That I’ve been so paranoid that I don’t trust him. If maybe I trusted him more, we would have a better relationship.
Dr. Robin Stern: And we wouldn’t be having these arguments.
Anne: Exactly, when reality is, you wouldn’t get any arguments if he was not having an affair.
Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly.
Anne: But you don’t know that, yeah. Because of the husband gaslighting.
Dr. Robin Stern: And one case in particular that I’m thinking about, one man told his wife that It was her fault when she finally found out that he was having the affair.
Is My Husband Gaslighting? Yes, The Goal Posts Always Move
Dr. Robin Stern: He said, well of course I’m having an affair, because you won’t travel with me on my business trips. She was devastated, but couldn’t believe she couldn’t convince me that he was right. Because, of course, it becomes a closed loop. Like, if she traveled with him, he wouldn’t be having the affair. So, isn’t it her fault? Because she didn’t travel with him.
Anne: It’s also a dangerous loop. Because, let’s say she starts traveling with him. And then he might say, “Well, when you travel with me, you need to be at the hotel at 8 when I get back, and we need to have sex that night.”
https://youtube.com/shorts/5khd-xStltQ
And she’s like, “Wait a minute. We got in a fight. I don’t want to.” And he might be like, “Even though you travel with me, now that you’re not having sex with me on this trip.” They’re always going to move the goal posts. Her husband gaslighting her will continue.
Dr. Robin Stern: Right.
Anne: So tell me about the three types of gaslighters.
1. The Glamour Gaslighter
Dr. Robin Stern: The three types of gaslighters I identified in my 30 years: 1. The glamour gaslighter, who is like it sounds. He brings glamour into your life, buys you gifts, showers you with love and affection, and tells you you’re amazing. He makes you feel like the most special person in the world, and that the two of you are soulmates. You have something so special. Then your husband gaslighting you will start. After he has been missing for a couple of days.
Or after he won’t answer your questions or has lied to you. And you’re feeling confused and crazy and complaining about that. He will come in and shower you with everything I just said. How amazing you are. Don’t you know how much I love you? Oh my goodness. Don’t focus on that. Tonight we’re going to the theater. We’re going out for dinner. I love you. This is candlelight. This is magic for us.
Any way that he can use love with a capital L, romance and his big personality to distract you from what’s just happened. So, what you’re focusing on, then, when you look at the picture of your lover, husband, or boyfriend. You’re focusing on, like, yeah, he did that, and that totally sucks. But he told me I’m the most special person he’s ever met, and he adores me, and I can feel our connection. That connection’s amazing, so I’m just gonna move on from this.
Anne: We call that grooming too. That’s the grooming part of the abuse.
Dr. Robin Stern: Of course, like getting into a cult, right?
Anne: Right, yeah, gaslighting is such a perfect word for when you feel like you’re losing touch with reality. But it also covers grooming, emotional and psychological abuse. It overlaps.
2. The Good Guy Gaslighter
Dr. Robin Stern: You know, people are not born gaslighters. But it works. It’s effective in keeping somebody connected to you, and keeping someone dependent on you. And looking to you for a standard setting, for reality setting. Because when you are feeling anxious and don’t know what reality is. If you’re with somebody who’s telling you that they are certain of what reality is, you don’t learn what reality is.
The second type of gaslighter is the good guy gaslighter. If that good guy gaslighter were right here with us now, he would be affable and pleasant. And he’s someone who people like. It’s very accommodating.
Even in the way he approaches you and talks through things. It’s hard to spot the good guy gaslighter because often you get what you want on the surface. For example, if the woman, let’s call her Janine, decides she wants to visit her family for the weekend, and her husband, Doug, doesn’t want to go. And says, “I don’t want to go, and I don’t know why you want to go, we never have a good time.”
They start like that, but he’s pleasant, and they continue to talk about what they think and feel about going to visit. And the conversation is going on for hours and hours, and she’s exhausted from it. She says, “I just want to go.” And so finally he says, all right, we’re just going to go. They go.
And while they’re there, he’s basically pouting and not engaging in conversation. And then in the car ride home, he’s basically punishing her and telling her they didn’t want us to be there, and it wasn’t fun anyway, and it was basically miserable.
Is Her Husband Gaslighting when he Punishes Her When She Visits Her Family?
Dr. Robin Stern: But at night, when she gets into bed and is exhausted, she doesn’t want to be intimate. I’m just not feeling great about this weekend. He says, I don’t understand. What’s your problem? You got exactly what you wanted. So he’s manipulating her into feeling like, What is wrong with me?
He’s right, I got to go. Never mind the conversation about whether they should go, or whether she’s wanted. Or whether it will be good lasted so long that she was depleted and exhausted. Never mind that he punished her when they were there and on the way home. But there’s something wrong with her for complaining. Exactly, I just hear you breathing.
Anne: Frustrating, right?
Dr. Robin Stern: And then you say to your friends, I don’t know what’s wrong with me. Because he does everything I want I get my way, but I’m just not happy.
3. The Intimidator Gaslighter
Dr. Robin Stern: And then, of course, there’s the intimidator gaslighter. The intimidator gaslighter is just, as it says, somebody who’s a bully, somebody who uses verbal abuse. Somebody who might be on the threshold of using physical violence. And like in the example I shared earlier. Somebody said, I don’t know if I’m being abused Dr. Stern, because I came home late from work and my husband doesn’t like it when I come home late.
So he feels abused, and he tells me I’m abusing him. Then when he puts his hand around my throat or is physically violent with me, he says he’s not abusing me during that time. He’s just reacting to my abuse. And so…
Anne: Even without the physical assault.
Dr. Robin Stern: …telling you you’re a moron, and being critical, screaming and cornering you perhaps. I was studying subjectivity and reality at that time, and several people in my class were talking about how you can’t tell someone they’re not being abusive. Like, I couldn’t tell someone, they said. They’re not being abusive, because the guy felt abused. So she maybe was abusing him because he felt abused. We got caught up in this high level conversation about it.
I ended up saying in class, and along with several of my colleagues supporting me. Whatever you want to call it, this woman has to move out of that house. Because she’s in danger, with her husband gaslighting her. If you’re saying she ought to stay till they figure it out, which is what I heard from them, I just don’t agree. Maybe this is a confusing example.
But there’s something important about that, people will try to convince you of realities that may be different than the way you see the world.
Some Abusers Feel Oppressed When They Can’t Do What They Want With Impunity
Anne: Well, that are frankly false. She might be like, why aren’t we having sex? Are you having an affair? Or why aren’t we having sex? Is it because you’re masturbating to pornography? And he’ll be like, no, it’s because you’re emotionally abusive to me. He might say something like that, which is not true, she isn’t. She’s asking questions, curious, and wondering what’s going on, because she genuinely cares. She’s trying to figure it out.
We have found that these types of psychological abusers feel oppressed when they can’t do what they want with impunity. It actually feels oppressive to them, because they’re like, she’s stopping me from soliciting prostitutes. It feels like she’s oppressing me, not realizing that he actually oppresses her with her husband gaslighting as well. The reversal of victim and perpetrator roles when perpetrators attempt to defend themselves is gaslighting in and of itself.
It’s also abuse. So when people listen to these two people and they’re like, “Oh, we don’t know who the abuser is because she says he’s abusive and he says she’s abusive. We can’t figure it out.” I want to say she’s telling the truth. She is being abused. And his accusations that she is abusive are abuse. With her husband gaslighting. He’s doing it to destabilize the situation, like you talked about before.
Dr. Robin Stern: Absolutely, it reminds me of when I was in high school. People would sit around at the end of the party, and people would say, what do you think reality is? And they would have these conversations that could go on for hours.
When He Calls Her Abusive, Justifying His Abuse, he Is Gaslighting
Dr. Robin Stern: But in a situation where you can’t confront the person you’re living with, because it will result in abuse. Or you can’t move out of the lane he has set up for you. Because he will decide it’s abuse and begin to abuse you about it. There’s no question who the abuser is and who the target of that abuse is.
Anne: Yeah, it’s also what they’re trying to achieve. So for example, on this podcast, I will get men who write bad reviews or angry emails, and they’ll say two contradictory things. They’ll say, number one, I am not the abuser. My wife is, and you convinced her that I’m abusive when I’m not. She’s terrible and awful, and she lies, and they’ll say all these terrible things about her. Then they’ll say and it’s your fault that our marriage is over. Like you were the one that caused this to happen.
And the same thing to the people you were having that discussion with at the school. It’s like, hold on a minute. If he genuinely believes she is abusing him. Rather than physically intimidating her or abuse her back, wouldn’t he want to get to safety? Wouldn’t he want to move away?
But then they lose control, so they don’t want to move away, they want to stay close. And that’s also an indicator that, like, no, the end result you want is to maintain control. Whereas the end result she wants is safety. Those are two totally different things.
Dr. Robin Stern: That’s a very important point.
Feelings & What The Abuser Does With Them
Dr. Robin Stern: And, in the work I do at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, we encourage people to give themselves and others permission to feel. It’s important that you allow all your feelings, and that you don’t judge the feelings you’re having. So maybe it is true that in that moment, maybe we would say to the abuser, what are your feelings?
But then, importantly, what you do with your feelings is another story. So we want people to have their feelings. We want people to own when they feel unpleasant things, as well as when they feel pleasant things. And explore all of it. But it’s what you do about your feelings, and with your feelings and in a relationship. How you bring your feelings in those moments of co-regulating that is what we’re talking about.
Anne: There’s a pitfall with abusers and intensive couple therapy. And the pitfall is that they know what the right answer is. They know that if they say, “I’m feeling abused.” Then someone will be like, “Oh, well, those are your feelings.” It could just be the husband gaslighting. I truly believe these husbands won’t stop lying.
most of the time. Because they know what they need to say to gain empathy or validation. A known compulsive liar and abuser will lie about their own feelings to manipulate people.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes, very often, absolutely.
Anne: For someone to say, I’m going to take this known manipulative, compulsive liar and be like, “Oh, you’re feeling sad? Okay.” And not be like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, this is how they manipulate. So they might not feel sad at all. We don’t actually know how they actually feel, because they won’t ever tell you.
You were Feeling Abused Or Sad, So What Did You Do?
Dr. Robin Stern: And we don’t know how other people feel. We can only know when they tell us. And if they lie, there’s no authentic communication. The goal is not to sit there and say, oh, so you’re feeling abused or sad. Let’s talk more about that. So then what did you do?
If somebody tells you in a moment about an interaction, what was the interaction? What are the consequences with your wife when you feel that? Well, the consequence in this case was violence, and that’s not okay. That’s abuse.
Anne: To just follow that a little bit farther, they think that their emotions will justify their choices when they don’t justify them at all, because I feel shame and I might eat ice cream. I mean shame does not cause infidelity.
I’m not going to yell at someone. I might feel sad, and I’m not going to lie to them and solicit a prostitute. There is no logical connection between their feeling and their choice to lie. But they like to make some logical connection there, which is that the husband gaslighting caused this when it’s no reality at all.
Dr. Robin Stern: Absolutely, absolutely, it reminds me of somebody I’ve worked with. Their boyfriend was very controlling and jealous. So they would walk around the neighborhood, and she would be friendly and talk to people who said hello to her on the street. Then they’d go for dinner, and she would sometimes see people they knew, and she would be friendly.
He didn’t like her diverting her attention to anyone else, and accused her of not caring about him and loving him enough to be focused on him.
Husband Gaslighting by Using Abusive Logic To Control
Dr. Robin Stern: He accused her of flirting. Ultimately, he came to the conclusion that it would be good for their relationship. If when they walked down the street, she kept her head down, and didn’t make eye contact with anyone. When they went to dinner, it would be good for their relationship if she always took the seat where she looked at the wall.
Anne: Wow
Dr. Robin Stern: The first time he said it to her, she said, “What? That’s crazy.” When he stepped her through the “logic,” his reality, she thought it made sense. Her husband gaslighting her was to control.
Anne: When you said logic, did you use air quotes?
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah.
Anne: To me, that’s not logical at all. Logic is high up on my value system. These are like red flags to me. But have you found that gaslightees start thinking it is logical, even though it’s not even remotely logical?
Dr. Robin Stern: Absolutely, I mean, this is how she presented in therapy. It was heartbreaking. “So, Dr. Stern, when we walk down the street, I look down at the ground, we sit in a restaurant, and I face the wall. We aren’t fighting anymore. He’s loving, he’s wonderful. But I feel weird about it. Because I thought it was ridiculous when he told me. And I didn’t think it was right.
And why should I have to look down? But then when I tell him that, he reminds me that it’s just an easy one, two, three. You look down at the street, and you sit and face the wall. We’re a loving couple. Then you look up at other people. You are friendly in the restaurant, and we’re fighting all the time. Don’t you see? It just makes sense.
She Clearly Sees Her Husband Gaslighting Her
Anne: My guess is, I don’t know what happened after this. But there were going to be other things that he was like, “Okay, now that you look down and sit and face the wall, now I’m going to tell you that if you loaded the dishwasher differently, we wouldn’t fight.” Then it’s gonna continue. Did she notice that this was spilling over into other things, or did this solve literally all their problems?
Dr. Robin Stern: It solved their problems until the next thing.
Anne: Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: When it was about what she should wear on the street.
Anne: Right.
Dr. Robin Stern: And the thing that was so hard for her was getting the courage to simply say, I’m not going to do that anymore. And we’re just going to have to talk through what happens when I don’t. And it took a long time for her to feel ready to say that sentence. Because in that kind of relationship, if you can see it clearly, which she came to see clearly. That doesn’t mean you’re ready to do it differently. Because the price you’re paying is the loss of the relationship.
And one of the things that I say to people all the time is that you have to be willing to make a sacrifice. Because often in these very manipulative, husband gaslighting relationships. There is something you’re there for that feels good to you, sometimes. Maybe it’s just having a partner. After a while, it doesn’t feel good.
Of course, when you’re devastated, but through the stages of gaslighting, you may still think that guy is so handsome. He’s my soulmate, and I love the way he looks at me. So no, I’m not going to risk that.
Trying To Resolve Differences In The Concept Of Being On Time
Dr. Robin Stern: Or he’s a good guy. After all, we made a life together, so he’s a little difficult. And so I feel depressed sometimes, like maybe I’m too sensitive.
Anne: Or no relationship’s perfect. I hear that a lot. In our community. We don’t see a certain type of woman who is more likely to be a victim of husband gaslighting. Because at least in my community, it happens to victims of betrayal across the board, even women with otherwise healthy attachment styles with their family or other people.
So because our community is comprised of women of every demographic, and it’s happening to business executives, teachers and therapists and everyone. In your view, why do confident, competent, and even emotionally intelligent women in all walks of life find themselves in these situations? Where they’re being gaslit?
Dr. Robin Stern: I’m going to use myself as an example, because in my former marriage, note former, I was married to a good guy gaslighter. He would resort to husband gaslighting as a technique to control the moment. He and I had a very different conception of being on time and what that meant. And so he was always late, but not just five minutes late. It could be 25 minutes late or 40 minutes late.
We’re sitting down to dinner. I’m waiting for him, and I would say to him, I don’t like that, it feels disrespectful. It is disrespectful. What can I do to help this not happen anymore? Is there anything I can do? Can you work on this? Whatever lovely, kind but firm communication I could come up with. And this was the time when I took a lot of notes and kept track of the gaslighting going on.
The Reason I Had To Write My Book Now
Dr. Robin Stern: And he would say to me, I’m not the one who has a problem with time, you are. Your parents were very uptight, and they taught you that people had to be on time, and it meant something different than it actually means in the world. And there are many women who wouldn’t care.
You’re uptight, so don’t give me a hard time. And I thought, no, that’s not right. I may have had a different upbringing than you and you may have learned different things, but it’s disrespectful. Being a few minutes late is different than being consistently very late. So no, I’m not the one with the problem.
And if we have a different conception, we need to organize our dinners differently. No, no, no, you’re the one with the problem. And here I was, somebody confident in my own opinions. You’re writing about gaslighting, knowing that this was a husband gaslighting interaction that we were having, and simultaneously, beginning to think, maybe he’s right.
It was the reason I said I need to write this book now. Because if I experienced that, knowing what I knew, knowing that gaslighting takes time, that you can go through stages. I was writing about it. I was taking notes on my patients who were going through these terrible husband gaslighting interactions. And some of them feeling really distraught most of the time, sad and joyless in their life. I thought that was happening to me.
What’s happening to people when they don’t even have a word to put to it? So when I began to unpack that, it wasn’t about attachment styles. It wasn’t about early learning, but because I learned, and most women have learned, to be empathic, to stand in somebody else’s shoes.
Accommodating Appropriately For A Husband Gaslighting You
Dr. Robin Stern: Most women have learned to try to understand, to try to accommodate. And accommodating in a relationship is a wonderful thing. We all have to accommodate at one time or another. But accommodating so much that you’re living in somebody else’s shoes. And not paying attention to your feelings is, I believe, why I ended up second guessing myself. Even though I knew he was wrong. I could feel that shift inside, too.
Anne: One thing that struck me is that you also need to know what you are accommodating. It’s one thing to accommodate someone who’s telling the truth. It’s another thing to accommodate lies and a husband gaslighting. Like, that’s a totally different scenario. So if someone says, “I’m so sorry I was late, uh, my tire blew out on the freeway and I had to stop and change my tire,” and it’s true, then it’s easy to be accommodating.
Then that’s an understandable thing, and you’re empathetic. And everybody’s got problems, and we all want to work together. It’s an entirely different thing for someone to say, “I’m so sorry I was late. My tire blew out on the freeway, and that’s why I’m late.” When they were with a prostitute.
That is an entirely different thing to accommodate. Sometimes you don’t know what is what for a while. It takes paying attention to what we call your sacred internal warning system, that like something is not right here. This sounds like I should be accommodating, because I should be kind and understanding when someone’s late, but like it doesn’t feel right.
Falling For The Explanation Trap
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes, and sometimes accommodating is not the story you’re told, which he probably lies. But then, you’re going into what I call the explanation trap, where you’re more interested in explaining his behavior. Well, I wonder why he felt like he had to lie tonight. Maybe his mother was all over him. I don’t know if he’s lying or not. He’s probably lying, but I’m just going to let it go. I don’t want to be like his controlling mother.
So, rather than thinking, do I want to be with somebody who’s lying? You are trying to figure out his psychology, and it keeps you connected.
Anne: When you say it keeps you connected, for our listeners, what that means is it keeps you in proximity to the abuse. Because they’re not going to stop being abusive, well they might, hopefully they will at some point. But they haven’t stopped right now. So you’re experiencing the harm from husband gaslighting in real time.
The only thing you can do as a victim of this type of abuse is to separate yourself through mental space or physical space. Some degree of separation from the harm, because if you’re in proximity to it, it’s going to hurt you no matter what you think about it. Just like Robin, an amazing, super smart professor at Yale, thinking, well, maybe he’s got a point. Even though you knew he didn’t.
Dr. Robin Stern: I heard from people all over the country when I published my book. People would say things to me like, are you in my living room? Are you like listening in the kitchen? And people who were super smart, super successful would call me and say, I know he’s lying. I know it.
Calling Out Lies & Being Convinced You Are Crazy Because Of A Husband Gaslighting You
Dr. Robin Stern: When we’re together and I say, you are lying. He convinces me that I must be crazy. To the point where someone told this wonderful woman I was working with, that it wasn’t him that her friend saw on a dating site. Even though her friend saw him on a dating site while they were together. It wasn’t him. Her friend must have seen an old picture of his cousin, who looks like him. And she knew it was. She absolutely knew it was.
But she sat with him while he showered her with husband gaslighting, “You’re so special to me, and how could you ever think I would do that?” Time and time again, until finally, she said, I just can’t be with you anymore. I don’t know if you’re right or not, but I know I can’t be with you anymore.
So to your point of being proximal to the abuse. As long as you stay, you’re at risk, but the minute you can get away, you’ll at least have some contact with your inner knowing. What did you say you call it?
Anne: We call it your sacred internal warning system. We teach all about that in our Living Free Workshop.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, so it’s hard to contact that when there’s so much noise and when you’re fighting so hard.
The Wake Up Call To Listen & Do Something About The Abuse
Anne: It’s our experience that when women get some distance. They can see it so much more clearly and answer the question, Is my husband gaslighting me?
Dr. Robin Stern: I encourage people to go shopping on your own. Just go to your friend’s house, take a pause. Just get away to clear some space to hear yourself. When you listen to yourself and access your sacred knowing, you will begin to think this is not okay. And it’s often in my experience why people have that wake up call just in a moment that they’re pausing. Somebody described to me that it was in a gas station where something happened with the credit card.
So she had to sit in the car longer than a normal time, and I don’t know what, maybe a half hour. And she said in that space and time, it was the first half hour she’d been without him for days. She heard herself saying, “This is not okay.”
And after that, she left him. In that case, she never looked back. It’s not usually that clean a break, and that immediate response. But often, it’s a third person who will say, wait a minute, what are you doing? I haven’t seen you in months. You don’t seem like yourself. And then you have to answer to that inside of yourself. If you’re willing to listen, that no, I’m not the same self I was. Maybe I’m not even the same strong self that I was.
Gratitude For All Who Work To Help Victims
Anne: I remember my sister telling me, when you talk on the phone with your husband, you sound like a completely different person. That was at the beginning, and I brushed it off at that point. But I think back on that now and think, wow, had I really listened at that point and recognized a husband gasllighting. That would have maybe saved me five more years of abuse.
Robin, Dr. Stern, you are incredible. I am so appreciative for your time and all your hard work. So thank you for your life’s work that has helped women get to safety and deal with a husband gaslighting all over the world. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Dr. Robin Stern: Anne, thank you. I’m loving our conversation. I’m loving your filling in where I left it blank, and I’m loving your saying to me, but wait a minute. Thank you for your wisdom, your deep knowledge, and for giving that to so many victims of emotional abuse.
What Is Victim Blaming? 7 Ways They Blame You
Jun 27, 2023
The Addiction Recovery Complex uses many of these victim blaming tropes to harm women. Here’s everything you need to know about victim blaming.
Transcript: What Is Victim Blaming?
Anne: Kate, you’re a member of our amazing community, and you see these themes come up over and over.
Anne: Let’s start with number one, connection is the solution to addiction. What is victim blaming about this?
1: Connection Is The Solution To Addiction
Kate: “The opposite of addiction is connection,” that is all crap. Connection will not heal or fix them. It’s not going to be, “If I connect with him more, he’s not going to be abusive.” That does not happen. They gave the example of rats addicted to cocaine. Then they put them in the other rat park, and suddenly the rat didn’t want the cocaine anymore. He wanted to be with other rats. That doesn’t happen in reality.
If it did, most of our husbands would not be abusive. Because we’ve given them all the connection, attachment, and love in the world. And it doesn’t work.
Anne: It doesn’t work because they’re not connect-to-able. It’s like you’re velcro and capable of connecting, and they’re a rock. But after that Ted Talk, where the guy says the opposite of addiction is connection. So many wives were like, oh, I can do that. “I can connect with him more.” That can solve our problem. This is what women need to know about their abusive husband’s therapist.
Kate: It’s not even what wives interpreted. It’s literally what the guy in the TED Talk said. He gave examples of helping an addict and wiping the sweat off of his brow and blah, blah, blah. He made it seem like you just got to be there for them and help them through this. That does not work with sex addiction.
Addicts Need To Learn How To Connect
Anne: If the Ted Talk guy had said, “addicts need to learn how to connect, and until they stop using their drug, people who try to connect with them won’t be able to.” That would have been more accurate. You need to know that many CSAT therapists will blame the victim.
Kate: That would have been much better. That’s not what he said sadly.
Anne: It is victim blaming if anyone suggests you can fix him or help him by connecting with him, or his infidelity is because he feels shame. Just no, that’s not even possible if he’s not connect-to-able. And then we all know that if he’s connect-to-able, he starts making efforts to connect with you consistently over time. If he initiates it. If he starts the hard conversations, asks you how you’re doing, is vulnerable, is instigating all those things. That might be an indication.
Kate: Sometimes wives feel like he was in this raging river, and it must have been so hard. You got to remind yourself that he jumped in that raging river. His choices led him there. If he does show up at the door, one way you might notice he is safe is if he is more vulnerable about his experience versus come rescue me. I need a towel.
Anne: “Where’s dinner? Why isn’t dinner on the table? I can’t believe I was out there struggling for my life and you did not make dinner.”
Kate: Yeah, instantly walk in there like, “I’m entitled, give me stuff.” So you already know, you’ve got connection, reactive abuse, the drama triangle, trauma bond, Stockholm syndrome, learned helplessness, and pro-dependency. All of these are victim-blaming.
2: What Is Victim Blaming? Reactive Abuse
Anne: All right, let’s talk about “reactive abuse” next. What is victim blaming about reactive abuse? Many victims may have heard this term. Can you describe what it is and why it’s victim blaming?
Kate: Let’s say a husband is standing in the doorway, a wife wants to get out, and she pushes him or throws stuff. They call that reactive abuse. You are reacting abusively. Or you were being mutually abusive. So he’s being abusive, and you’re being abusive. That whole thing is completely bogus, because of the intent behind it. If an abuser is standing in the doorway, blocking you, and you push him, it’s self-defense. Self-defense is not the same thing as abuse.
If somebody came into your home and tried to kill you, tried to kill your family, and you shot them, why would anybody call it reactive murder? What would they call it? It wasn’t murder. It is self defense.
Anne: The foundation of this is misogyny and entitlement, and this is why. Abuse is, she should be treating me in a certain way, give me certain things, should act certain ways, and how she should support me. If she doesn’t do that, “abusive” to me because I am entitled to these things. So if dinner isn’t on the table, or if I don’t have intercourse, or if she doesn’t treat me with respect (meaning do everything I want her or to do), she’s not respecting me.
Abusers will view themselves as the victim responding to abuse. They will claim their victim is either at fault or abusive. Because of their paradigm of entitlement, they genuinely feel she is abusing him. He is just reacting to the abuse, rather than his entitlements are what makes him abusive in the first place.
Misogyny & Entitlement In Abuse
Kate: I’ve heard many wives say, maybe I was abusive, I don’t know. I called him a bunch of names. I even threw something at him, so maybe I was abusive too. Who has more control in the relationship? Is it you? Or is it probably him, because he’s been lying, gaslighting, and abusing?
Anne: He’s also the breadwinner. He is making the money. You have no money.
Kate: Some people say, why does it matter? If I call it reactive abuse, it will still help me not to react that way. The words we use matter. If we call it mutual abuse, other people who hear that will think you’re equally at fault. Even if you don’t believe you are, other people will, even the abuser. For example, they did a study where the participants read, “Lisa was approached by Dan at a party. Dan gave Lisa a drink spiked with a drug. Later that night, Lisa was assaulted by Dan.”
Then the participants had to basically rate the level at which they felt it was Lisa’s fault. The researchers then switched the perpetrator to the subject in the sentence, and it had a huge impact. Dan approached Lisa instead of Lisa was approached by Dan. They discovered that people were less likely to subconsciously blame the victim when the perpetrator was the subject.
So words matter. Any words that make it sound like the victim is at fault will always make people, even if they don’t mean to, subconsciously view the victim as actually at fault. So we cannot use words like that. It is self-defense.
Being Angry Is Totally Normal
Anne: There are people out there who tell wives of online explicit materials users. If he ever tells you about his use, if he ever feels safe enough with you to tell the truth. You need to react a certain way. And I’m like, no, a victim never needs to react a certain way in order to help her own abuser. So let’s say he’s been emotionally and psychologically abusive to you for 10 years. He’s been manipulating you and gaslighting you, and he says, to you, “I’ve been using online explicit material.”
You, as the victim of these 10 years of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. You don’t owe him anything. He owes you a lot, but you don’t owe him anything. And if you’re angry, upset, confused, and if you don’t want to talk to him. Good for you. You’re totally normal. That’s how anyone would feel. Anyone who had been abused and lied to would feel angry, upset and confused.
A woman who is responding carefully, like, okay, thank you for telling me about your use. I love you. I care about you. Thank you for sharing. She is doing that out of this visceral attempt to protect her own family. She is resisting the abuse in that moment. Because she thinks the safest thing to do in that moment is protect her family or her marriage.
But anybody who tells a victim, hey, you need to be careful about how you respond to his abuse. So you don’t hurt him. That’s bonkers.
Kate: It is insane. We know it doesn’t work. Don’t do it.
What Is Victim Blaming? Confessions Of Lying For Years vs. Child Pornography Exposure
Anne: There are many organizations trained to teach parents how to react to their children. When their children talk to them about use. We are only talking about when a woman discovers her husband has been using, and that her husband has been lying to her for years, putting her at risk, and coercing her.
If anyone is trying to suggest a woman should respond the same way to her child talking to her about their use that is victim blaming. And discovering that her husband has been living a double life and lying to her face for years. That is crazy. Those are two completely different situations. So when it comes to abuse victims, discovering that their husband has been abusing them. There should be no discussion about the “right way to react” in order to help him out.
Because this is a safety issue for her. I needed to learn the safest way to resist my ex’s abuse. And so I discovered the Living Free strategies, and then I developed The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, Telling a victim, hey, you’ve got to react to him in a different way to help him out. Or that it’s your fault because you didn’t react the right way. If you had reacted differently, he would’ve done something different. That is a harmful victim blaming lie.
You didn’t do anything wrong. It’s not your fault. And now, due to the injuries he caused you, we as victims need to learn safety strategies to protect ourselves. In the back of my book, Trauma, Momma, Husband Drama, there are a bunch of infographics that illustrate how victims are blamed.
3: The Drama Triangle Blames Victims
Anne: And one of these infographics illustrates how there is no drama triangle. If you don’t have a copy of my book, you can get it at our books page and there’s that infographic at the back. Women who aren’t familiar, what is the drama triangle?
Kate: The “drama triangle”, is also called the Karpman triangle, or the persecutor and rescuer triangle. Whatever, they have so many names. They have three roles: the victim (the woe is me), the persecutor (the bully), and then the rescuer (let me fix you). The interesting thing is that the victim in the model is thought to be the start or catalyst of the entire drama triangle.
Anne: Yeah, that tracks because the addiction industrial complex says it’s her being triggered, that’s the problem. Not that he is triggering her, which is the real problem. The real problem is that he is abusing her, not the way she reacts.
Kate: Yes, this is just another example where the victim is considered the worst person possible. Way more than the abuser. Even though Stephen Karpman came out and said these are people playing the role of the victim. They’re not actually the victim, they’re just manipulating. If you have somebody who is legit being abused, that drama triangle should not apply at all. Don’t use it. Stay away from it. It has nothing to do with you.
Victim vs. Perpetrator Roles
Kate: It is victim blaming; you were an actual victim, this is not you playing the victim.
Anne: I was going to say that exact same thing. You cannot play the victim when you are actually the victim. In fact, when you are the victim, the abuser is the perpetrator. Then he plays the role of the victim. He also plays the role of the rescuer. He does that to manipulate you. There are not three roles. There are only two roles in reality, real actual roles, the perpetrator and the victim.
The perpetrator can act like a victim. He can act like a rescuer and groom. He can Hoover and manipulate, but he is always the perpetrator, and she is always the victim in that scenario.
Kate: He can play all those different things, but that doesn’t mean you are part of the drama triangle. There are some people who’ve tried to say to wives, “You need to get out of the drama triangle.” You were never in the drama triangle in the first place. So why do you need to work on getting out of something you were never in?
Anne: Totally.
https://youtu.be/QleyqobSRCQ
4: What Is Victim Blaming? Trauma Bonding
Anne: Alright, now let’s move on to the victim blaming term trauma bonding. The second I heard trauma bond or trauma bonding, I was like, that is victim blaming. So I developed my own model, called the manufactured relational tether. We have a good YouTube video about it.
Comment on this episode below. We’d love to know what you think. If there’s some victim blaming that we don’t end up bringing up in this episode, go there and write all the ways you’ve been victim blamed. But yeah, the trauma bonding concept is victim blaming. And I think my manufactured relational tether is a better way to describe what’s going on.
Kate: Yes. exactly, these last three are actually my favorite. Stockholm Syndrome, learned helplessness and prodependency.
5: Stockholm Syndrome
Kate: Stockholm Syndrome, it turns out the whole diagnosis is bogus. It has no foundation whatsoever, no truth in it. It is only a way to blame victims and make them sound crazy, because their choices aren’t making sense to the rest of the world. Many people thought Elizabeth Smart had Stockholm syndrome. Why didn’t she get away? She had so many opportunities to get away. Why didn’t she escape? Oh, it’s because she had Stockholm syndrome.
Stockholm Syndrome was made up in 1973 by psychiatrist Nils Bejerot. He helped the police during a bank robbery, which led to about four people being taken hostage. The police botched it completely from the start. They were reckless and put the hostages in danger. The hostages were actually more scared of the police than the bank robbers.
From the beginning, one of the hostages, Kristen Enmark, she’s amazing, was outspoken to the police. She called the radio stations and tried and said, “Tell the police to stop and we will be safe. The bank robbers are letting us call our families, they just want to get away, they will not harm us.” She talked to the radio station two times. She even talked to the prime minister and was like, “Please get the police off our backs.”
Police still didn’t listen. They actually ended up hanging up on her at one point. They were just treating her like crap. Whereas I love this story so much. They have recordings of her even talking to the prime minister. Her voice is so calm. You can tell she’s smart and knows what she’s talking about. She’s not somebody who’s freaking out and doesn’t understand. No, she knows what she’s talking about.
Misogyny In Stockholm Syndrome
Kate: It’s just sad. They then said she had a syndrome and made her not credible, to fit their mold of how they think a woman should or should not react.
Anne: Misogyny is the foundation there, because how could this woman know better than the police?
Kate: Yeah, exactly.
Anne: And all these men and this psychiatrist, how could she know better about what to do? She must be crazy.
Kate: Exactly, beause they are like, we’re just trying to help you, and you’re mad at us. Oh, boo hoo, “You’re not helping. You’re going to get us killed. Stop it.” They messed up on so many different things. They even brought in one of the bank robber’s brothers. But it turns out not to be his brother. They blamed it all on her. This doesn’t make sense, so she must be the problem. This happened to Elizabeth Smart.
She said, “Nobody should ever question why you didn’t do something. They have no idea what they would have done, and they certainly have no right to judge you. Everything I did, I did to survive.”
Anne: They weren’t on the side of the bank robbers. They knew the bank robbers were not the best people in the world, but they were just trying to get to safety, and the police were making it worse.
Kate: Natasha Cambush said, “Looking for normality within the framework of a crime is not a syndrome.” People get annoyed when I say that, but I love all these. There’s no example of Stockholm syndrome that is legit, because if you look at why they did what they did, it makes sense. There’s nothing wrong with them.
Police Pathologized And Blamed The Victim
Kate: There is this psychiatrist who was helping the police at the time. She didn’t want to talk to him. So he decided to make up this brand new syndrome. Why? Because she wasn’t cooperating with the police. So he decided to come up with Stockholm syndrome. This was in Stockholm.
Anne: Hence Stockholm syndrome.
Kate: Yes. She has never spoken to this guy. It was very victim blaming, he diagnosed her with something he has never even spoken to her about. He made this whole syndrome up. It got spread around. Who has not heard of Stockholm syndrome? Everyone has heard of it, and it’s not even based on any facts.
She has a YouTube video, and if you actually listened to her first account story, everything they did makes a hundred percent sense. It was for survival. Nothing they did was like, “Why did they not try to escape?” She wasn’t acting like the good little victim that the police wanted her to. She wasn’t fitting the mold of what a victim should look like, and they were upset with that. They thought there must be something wrong with her.
It’s basically a way to silence victims and pathologize them for normal behaviors to make them look unstable. Smart even stated once, “The syndrome is a condition of illness. I became stamped as ill and thus not credible.”
Anne: Yeah, abusers often say I don’t know anything about betrayal trauma, because I’m so traumatized. That I can’t think straight apparently. And so they know better than me what happened. And I’m like, no, the purpose of all these victim blaming strategies is to discredit the victims.
6: Learned Helplessness
Anne: All right, let’s go to learned helplessness.
Kate: So learned helplessness is a term coined by psychologist Martin Seligman. He wanted to understand depression. You’ve heard of Pavlov’s dogs and all the studies they’ve done on dogs. He ended up doing this study, where he took dogs and put them in these Pavlov slings. It looks like a hammock with their feet sticking out. He attached electrodes to their hind legs, and then he had the electrodes deliver an inescapable shock to half of the dogs.
The ones that got the shock are called the yoked. He then took the yoked group, put them in a shuttle box with an electrified floor and half the wall in the middle. And continued shocking them in hopes the yoked group would jump over the wall, which would end its shock. If they jumped over, they wouldn’t be shocked anymore.
What he found interesting was that 60 percent of the dogs just whimpered, yelped, and then eventually laid down during the entire 60 seconds of shock and didn’t try to escape.
His conclusion was that the yoked dogs didn’t jump over because they had learned to be helpless. Some people might think, I can understand that. The dogs didn’t feel like they had anywhere to go. So they just laid down and whimpered. Although he mentions in his study that when the door to the shuttle box is open, the dogs tried to run out. For some reason, he doesn’t consider that escaping.
Because that sounds like an escape to me. If a dog is gonna try to run out of the box, then that is escaping.
Anne: Let me restate. They did a study abusing dogs and not letting them get out. In other words they created a victim blame study.
Critique Of Learned Helplessness
Anne: They said it was their fault they couldn’t get out.
Kate: Basically, “The reason you’re like this is because you have learned helplessness, not because I forced you to be in this position”.
Anne: That is insane.
Kate: They’ve done similar studies with rats, monkeys, and even with humans. The humans were like, “I can’t escape the shock, so why am I going to try? I can’t control it, so why try?” Which to me sounds logical. You literally can’t do it. So then they try to apply this to blame abuse victims, saying, “They, the victim, learned to be helpless.”
Anne: instead of saying they were acting logically for the situation they were in, he’s saying they should have done more to get out? Even though they couldn’t get out?
Kate: It’s ridiculous. They did this study with a classroom full of kids. They gave half the kids a test that was actually answerable, and the other half didn’t. Tthey were like, try to solve this problem. Half of them were able to solve it. They were like, okay, who solved number one?” All the kids that weren’t able to solve it, the teacher asked them, “how did that make you feel?” They were like, “I felt stupid. I felt like I couldn’t do it.”
She’s like, “This is learned helplessness. The cause of you feeling the way you’re feeling is because of learned helplessness.” The cause is because you rigged the study and did it to them. The reason they’re feeling the way they’re feeling isn’t because they have learned helplessness. The reason is because you’re abusing them. The cause is you did it. Why are you blaming the victim? It is insane.
Anne: In fact, some prominent addiction people are using that.
7: New Victim Blaming Term: Pro-dependency
Kate: This last victim blaming term is pro-dependency.
Anne: This one is ridiculous, because it’s saying codependent was bad. Pro-dependent is the same thing, but it’s good. But it’s still a little bad.
Kate: I’ve done a lot of research on pro-dependency. I’ve read the book, I have listened to tons of YouTube videos, and I have read tons of articles. Pro-dependency is by Rob Weiss. Yes, he claims codependency is bad, pro-dependency is good. I agree. codependency is bad. I think it’s crap. Even one time I said, F codependency. I just started giggling. Because I’m like, I agree with you there.
I feel like this is another example of men using armchair psychology to try to make up labels for women. He claims it’s not a label. He says, pro-dependency cannot be a label, but then he says, “the craziness of someone you might call codependent, I would call them pro-dependent.” I’m like… you just… that sounds like a label to me.
Anne: You just used a label. If you’re not going to use a label, then you would say this is a healthy woman who’s reacting in normal ways. To not pathologize it, that’s what you would say.
Kate: He’s against codependency is because it pathologizes women, then he turns around and talks about how he likes co-addiction. Which literally, by definition, pathologizes women.
Anne: Whoa, whoa, he says, I don’t like codependence, but I like co-addiction? What? They mean the exact same thing!
Kate: Then he says, “I don’t stick by you as a co-addict because there’s something wrong with me. I may stick with you as a co-addict because I learned how to stick by people in my childhood, and so I know how to do it. But that’s not pathology.” No, that literally is pathology.
Contradicting Statements
Anne: He knows codependent is bad, so why are these women doing what they’re doing? I don’t know.
Kate: They’re not victims. We can’t make them victims, so how can I rationalize this? How can I twist everything to make it still have something to do with them otherwise you just say, no, they’re reacting in a totally normal way to being abused. That’s all you have to say.
Kate: The weird thing is he actually uses the word abuse I think once. Then he mentions you have co-addiction. Or he says, “I certainly think Al Anon is a wonderful program, and Al Anon, by the way, never implied you were addicted to your husband or wife.” And I’m like, yes, it did.
Anne: Al Anon says you’re diseased. Al Anon says that you have a disease, too, just like your diseased spouse.
Kate: Exactly. He says these things, and they’re so contradicting. He even says codependency is a trauma-based theory. What are you talking about? It’s a disease-based theory. He says, “That’s why pro-dependency is an attachment-based theory.” He basically wants to keep the codependency model. He knows he can’t call it that anymore, because the word is too offensive. No, not just the word, the whole model is offensive.
The Trauma Model Debate
Kate: One of the things he says he doesn’t like about codependency is that it automatically assumes the wife is coming from a traumatic place.
Anne: That is absolute word salad. If he claims he doesn’t like codependency because it assumes the wife is coming from a traumatic place. He’s basically saying I don’t subscribe to the trauma model. I do not think this is abuse. And then he goes even further to propose it’s her fault. Because her trauma, like somehow “attracted.” this abusive man to her. This whole thing doesn’t make sense.
Kate: He has a chapter called twos don’t marry sevens. Because he believes you are attracted to someone who is just as dysfunctional as you. Which is absolutely victim blaming. He believes you will not end up with a person with higher emotional intelligence than you. And betrayed partners perpetuate and facilitate the disease. What does that say for every one of us who married addicts? Are you kidding me?
Anne: That is so offensive, numbering people. What that says is that if twos can’t marry sevens, someone who is healthy could never, ever be victimized by abuse. Which I don’t agree with at all. Abusers can victimize anyone. They can lie and manipulate. All, these victim blaming things. There are so many, whew. Okay, so if we didn’t cover something you personally want to have covered, please scroll down and comment below. I want to hear your victim blaming examples.
Kate. You’re amazing. Thanks so much for hanging out today.
Can Trauma Affect Your Sex Drive – 3 Things To Know
Jun 20, 2023
Many women wonder, “Can trauma affect your sex drive?” Yes, trauma can have a profound impact. Especially if your partner emotionally traumatized you.
It’s a basic fact that emotional abuse isn’t attractive. There are 19 different types of emotional abuse, to see if you’ve been experiencing any one of the 19 types, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
1. It’s Normal To Not Want physical contact When A Man Lied To You
If your husband lied to you, of course, you’re not going to want to have contact. Healthy intimacy is based on trust and empathy. If he’s been lying to you about anything, that will affect your drive.
However, if he’s been lying to you about his pornography use or his affairs, of course you won’t feel emotionally and physically safe with him.
Yes, many women don’t understand the different types of trauma you may be experiencing. For example, some men traumatize their partners by not caring about her experience. If your husband has never cared if you enjoy it, or if you get anything out of it, that’s traumatizing. Why would any woman want to under those circumstances? It’s normal to not want to do something that isn’t enjoyable for you.
And if your husband insists you owe it to him for whatever reason, that’s coercion. And coercion is an absolute turn off. It’s completely normal to not want to be intimate with someone manipulating and exploiting you.
3. Detaching From Your Body Is A Trauma Response
If you find yourself numbing out or emotionally detached during just to get it over with, there’s a likelihood that the experience is abusive in nature.
If he doesn’t care that you’re not engaged or that you have to detach to get through it, he doesn’t possess the empathy required to be a healthy partner. It’s normal to not want to have it with someone who doesn’t care about you.
Whether you’ve experienced emotional, physical, or psychological trauma due to his emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, it’s normal to experience anxiety, dissociation, and even fear.
You don’t owe anyone this for any reason. It’s not a crime to not want it. It’s not immoral or unethical to not want it. The problem isn’t that you don’t want to have it. He feels entitled to it with you, that is the problem. And is emotionally and psychologically abusive to manipulate you to do it when you don’t want to. In fact, it’s called coercion.
It’s Not You—It’s Him
Understand that couple therapy or improved communication won’t solve his abuse problems. It’s normal that your drive only comes online when you’re with someone who…
is honest and transparent.
Shows genuine empathy for your feelings.
doesn’t exploit you emotionally or sexually.
doesn’t objectify women through the use of exploitative material.
Remember, it’s normal to be disgusted by someone who is emotionally and psychologically abusive.
If you’re navigating the impact of trauma on your sex life, there’s nothing “wrong” with you, and you’re not broken. Wondering, how can trauma affect me? Find support in our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.
Transcript: Can Trauma Affect Your Drive?
Anne: It’s just me today. Many women ask, can trauma affect your sex drive? And the answer is, absolutely. And here are three things to know. If you’re listening and thinking when I found out about his use of exploitative material or affairs, I actually wanted to have it more. We will cover that in a different episode.
Indiana Jones & Childhood Memories
Anne: I grew up on Indiana Jones. In my home, we had a VHS player and a tape of Raiders of the Lost Ark. I think I recorded it off of TV. There’s a period of my life where every Saturday I watched Raiders of the Lost Ark via VHS. So I have a lot of this movie memorized. With this new Indiana Jones coming out, I’m so excited to see it.
Of course, I’m going to be there. And I’m going to love it. But I have mixed feelings about Indiana Jones in terms of, maybe, how media and culture have affected my sexuality. And I say that because I’m not interested in getting married and dating. I’ll go on a date every once in a while, and I am noticing lately that I have more maybe interest. Dating after narcissistic abuse is hard. When I say that, I like a hundred percent of the time I’m not a hundred percent disgusted by it. And that did occur for a long time.
I’m 90 percent disgusted by it 90 percent of the time. There’s like 10 percent where I’m like, oh, maybe I would want to have it again. And I feel like that 10 percent of the time. When that occurs is usually due to some Indiana Jones type character on a movie I watch. Can trauma affect you? So that’s why I’m saying maybe it has ruined my desire for it. In that many shows I watch where I’m attracted to a man, they’re strong, they’re capable physically, I’m attracted to manly problem solvers who are able to save the day.
Realizations at Petra
Anne: I actually went to Petra, where part of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade filmed. When they found the Valley of the Crescent Moon. So you go through the slot canyon, which looks like where I’m from. It looks like southern Utah, so I felt like I was home there. Anyway, so I go through the slot canyon and get to the end. And here is this amazing facade carved out of the cliff. It’s called The Treasury. It was overwhelming. This is where I discovered strategies to heal from your husband’s emotional abuse.
So I see The Treasury in real life, and I just break down in like hysterical crying. I was sobbing. I could not stop crying. Because it represented my childhood, ideas of what men were, what masculinity was. And the kind of man I wanted, which, what, Indiana Jones?That’s crazy. There are no men in real life like Indiana Jones. My ex husband is physically capable. He is strong and physically attractive. And he could pick up railroad ties and throw them around in our yard.
And when he did yard projects and got dirt on his face, I was extremely attracted to him. So I’m standing in front of The Treasury, and I just break down. Can trauma affect you? All my childhood dreams and hopes are just standing there in front of me. But there’s no Indiana Jones.
I’m just there and he’s not around, and it was miserable, actually, in that moment. I took my journal, thank goodness, and I was journaling quite a bit.
Can Trauma Affect Who I’m attracted to?
Anne: The interesting thing about the Treasury, the actual Treasury, the one in Petra, is that it is just a facade. You can’t go in it, but if you could, there’s like a tiny room in there. There’s not some palace inside of there. It’s just this beautiful facade, and most of Petra is like that. It’s just facades, not like palaces built into the rock. And that really hit me. All of the things that I thought I wanted. This Indiana Jones character was just a hollow facade.
And yet, that type of man, like the Indiana Joneses of the world, is still what I’m attracted to. And it’s annoying me, because I would not want to be married to Indiana Jones. He would be the worst husband in the world. I’ve been thinking a lot about how perhaps movies have perhaps messed me up.
These types of men I am attracted to, for sure, but I don’t necessarily want to be. I wish I was attracted to other types of men. So in the process of this, rather than worry about it too much. Can trauma affect you? I just decided not to worry about dating. And I like that. I’m so happy with my life. I love it, my kids, being a mom, and doing this podcast.
And I love everything we do at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It is so satisfying. And maybe when my kids move out, I’ll think about it. By that time, I will be 55 years old. And maybe I will meet, you know, a 53 year old man who is not like Indiana Jones, and maybe I won’t be that attracted to him. And maybe that will be great.
No interest in dating
Anne: I don’t know. I’m wondering if you guys have had the same situation where you know what healthy is and that’s what you’re interested in. Maybe you’re not interested in dating like I am. But then who you’re attracted to is not necessarily the “healthy” guy. I’m not saying I’m attracted to bad guys.
Like, no, I’m not dating anybody. I never get myself in a pickle. I’m not flirting with people. If you knew me in real life, you’d be like, oh yeah, she does not flirt with people. I don’t have a problem with not dating. I think I give off a leave me alone vibe, which suits me fantastic.
So there’s no hanky panky going on with me. But I’m wondering how you feel about how media or movies toyed a little bit with who you’re attracted to. And then also what you know would be better for a marriage.
Healthy Marriages vs. Abusive Relationships
Anne: That being said, since I’ve never had a healthy marriage, and this is not a podcast for healthy marriages, healthy marriages aren’t meant to be hard. I talk about abuse and what that looks like. I’m not concerned about women in healthy marriages coming to Betrayal Trauma Recovery and then out of thin air deciding for no reason that their husband is abusive when he’s not.
That’s not what happens. Women with healthy marriages, if they listen to this podcast, they’re like, oh wow, my husband’s nothing like that. Women who have an abusive husband, when they listen, will be like, check, check, check. Ugh! He’s emotionally and psychologically abusive. That’s what’s going on. That’s what’s happening. That’s not BTR’s fault. It’s the abuser’s fault. They’re the ones doing the abusing.
So, even though I may be an abuse expert, somebody like Indiana Jones, in Raiders of the Lost Ark, still seems so cool to me. Why is that? Why am I so lame? In real life, that would be a disaster. I’d love to know your thoughts about this. Please comment below. Follow us on social media, on Instagram.
It might be that I would be attracted to a healthy person. Just nobody healthy has shown up that was available the date. That’s probably what’s going on. Sorry, it took me this time to like process. Why am I still attracted to Indiana Jones? This is ridiculous. You know why? It’s because a healthy man in real life has not asked me on a date. I’m guessing I would be attracted to them. If that happens, I’ll let you know. But in the meantime, I’d love to know what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Tkouso_8A
The Truth About Post Separation Abuse – Mykell’s Story
Jun 13, 2023
We’d all like to believe that divorce stops abuse, but post separation abuse is so common. The truth is, abusers don’t stop wanting power over their victims, even after divorce.
To learn if your ex-husband has an abusive character, enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop to learn how to write strategic messages.
With Post Separation Abuse, Boundaries Are Key
Boundaries help victims separate themselves from abusive behavior. Boundaries are not:
Ultimatums
Consequences for bad behavior
Mechanisms to control another person’s behavior
Instead, boundaries are courageous actions that victims take to ensure they are as protected as possible from harm. Setting and maintaining boundaries in a divorce is key to navigating post separation abuse.
What Are Some Boundaries That Can Help Me Navigate Post Separation Abuse?
Remember that post-separation abuse boundaries aren’t going to stop your abuser from being abusive, but they are intended to limit your exposure to your ex-husband’s abusiveness.
Some ideas of boundaries you can set and maintain include:
Using a parenting communication app, like Our Family Wizard, as your sole mode of communication (consult with your attorney).
Determining certain times of day, or days of the week, that you will check and respond to messages from your ex
Bringing a family member or friend with you to drop off/pick up the children
A Strong Support System Is Essential When Navigating Post Separation Abuse
Post-separation abuse can sometimes feel overwhelming. It’s imperative that victims develop a strong support network.
Post separation abuse victims can find support from:
Anne: I’m so excited to have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Mykell. She’s a single mother of three and believes women can discover a life of peace, power and purpose post separation. Even if they’re experiencing post separation abuse. Welcome Mykell.
Mykell: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so glad to talk to you.
Anne: Your story is similar to so many of our stories where you didn’t know that you were being abused. And you figured it out. Can you tell us your story?
Mykell: For me, the story is a slow unfolding one. I met my ex-husband when I was in high school. Anybody who knew us could say that our relationship had been rocky from the start. Me, being 17 years old and not knowing much about myself or relationship dynamics. I just thought, all relationships are hard, and I’m not perfect either.
And gradually over the years and decades, as things unfolded. It became clear that there was a spiritual separation in our relationship. As he continued to make various choices. It got rockier, and the thing that’s confusing in these situations is I’m not a shrinking violet.
So when someone consistently attacks you, sometimes you will stand up for yourself, you’ll fight back. So that’s what kept things confusing for me for a long time. Going round and around and around was this thought that I’m participating in how this relationship is shaping up. As time went on, I started to say, I don’t want to respond this way anymore. I don’t want to live my life like this anymore.
Seeking Help
Mykell: And I started seeking some counseling on my own, and in the midst of that, the relationship actually got worse. So in the midst of me choosing to disengage and better ways of handling my own emotions in the situation. It made it clear that we were on two separate paths. As life continued to go on, there were some choices he made that eventually were deal breakers and broke everything apart.
I started getting language for what I was going through, and started getting clarity. It’s been three years since the marriage ended, but now through the community to connect with other women who are going through the same things. I started that healing process. And get help with post separation abuse.
Anne: What brought you to understand that what you experienced was abuse? This it wasn’t just that marriage is hard work. Overall, you were realizing, wait a minute, these behaviors I’m seeing in him are unhealthy, the healthier you got. But what actually helped you consider abuse?
Mykell: For me, it was this thought that someday we’re going to get better. I don’t want everybody to know all this garbage that we’re going through. It’s going to be fine. I don’t want to involve too many people in this. As the waters started to get murkier, I needed some help. I went to a counselor about a totally separate issue. It started to unravel as I explained to her, well, this happened, and then he said this and yada, yada, yada. She said to me, you know, this is abuse, right?
And I thought to myself, really? In that moment, I don’t know that I fully grabbed onto what she was saying. But I started reading some books, and in reading, I started seeing my story in what these experts were writing about.
Recognizing Abuse Patterns
Mykell: And I thought, how did I ever miss this? And I think one of the barriers for us is feeling foolish that I never saw this. We think we’re going to see this thing coming from a mile away, and it’s going to be so obvious that we’re going to know. But so often something feels off, but you probably would not put that word abuse to it. You’d probably say this person has anger issues or this person had trauma in their backstory or …
Anne: They have an addiction.
Mykell: Yep, mm hmm, it’s something that we end up couching underneath this banner of imperfection that we all have. Not realizing that the power dynamics are intentional, that there’s more than just some bad habits going on here, that there’s something bigger at play.
https://youtu.be/t-Kt15CpMdY
That was one of the things that helped me disengaging emotionally and starting to heal. I said, I didn’t want to be part of that kind of thing anymore. And so that was how the road started to get to being healthy. It became so clear that we had different intentions about the way that was all going to happen.
Anne: Different ways of viewing the relationship. You were viewing it as a partnership, and he’s viewing it as I have power over, essentially. Which continues with post separation abuse. Especially if they’re doing an in-home separation.
Mykell: Mm hmm, I hesitate to say relationship, because one person certainly thinks they’re in a two-way relationship. But the only way this sort of arrangement continues is when there’s a disparity, and one of the parties is seeing this as a means to an end.
Post Separation Abuse: Power Dynamics In Relationships
Anne: He has some goal is controlling the information. For example, there’s a power differential because they have more information than someone else. Before you ever defined it as abuse, did you define it as a addiction?
Mykell: This was something completely. under the radar for me. I was not even aware of all the things going on. Some behaviors and things unbeknownst to me started to come out in the midst of that process. But there was nothing before. That was like a precursor.
Anne: So you were like, something is wrong, but you couldn’t put your finger on it. And the abuse came first. And then later you realized, Oh, and he’s also using pornography. That’s important to talk about, because so many people don’t include the this when they talk about abuse. And I always want to bring it into the story to say, and there was an issue here. So people know it is part of this mess of unhealthiness.
Mykell: Yeah, and I think the thing we have to recognize with the mess of unhealthiness. There are so many types of abuse when you’re looking at the classification of what’s domestic violence. So often we think that’s only physical. And there’s emotional, there’s sexual, there’s spiritual, financial, so many ways that someone can gain power over another person.
And often it’s not even just one or two. It often covers all these categories, and so because it can be very encompassing, it makes it hard to see.
Anne: Yeah, if it were just he’s absolutely shutting down the bank account and won’t let you have any money. That might be a little more obvious. Especially with post separation abuse.
Challenges of Co-Parenting
Anne: But the little ways he’s financially abusive, or if he said God told me I can beat you up. You’d be like, well, that’s clear it’s spiritual abuse. But it’s unclear if it’s spiritual abuse if he’s kneeling down and praying by you and saying, please help my wife be more godly. Help her understand how to be a better wife, when biblical submission becomes abuse. That doesn’t necessarily feel like spiritual abuse. From your experience, what issues do single mothers commonly encounter when raising children with an abuser?
Now, when I say raising them with an abuser, meaning you’re divorced from them, but they’re still in your life because they’re your child’s parent.
Mykell: Right, one of the difficult things is constantly trying to explain things to your former partner or trying to make decisions with them. As though they can have effective, honest, open communication. So often, it’s just a continued open door for manipulation and control to continue with post separation abuse. It is so essential to understand that it is possible to continue this walk without continually having to hand your life back over to this person.
Anne: Even if you’re expertly skilled at dealing with your ex, and you’ve got great boundaries. And you’re detached and you have all the skills going for you. Your ex can still technically abuse you because you’re being lied to, you’re being manipulated. It’s still not your fault if you don’t “communicate perfectly” with your abuser. He’s abusing you. You can do your best to be as highly skilled as possible in communication with an abuser.
But it still has nothing to do with you, and it’s not your fault if they still don’t react well to whatever you try. I struggled with post-separation abuse for eight years after divorce.
It saved me, it absolutely saved me. I mentored five different women to ensure that these strategies worked. And those women’s actual real life messages are in that workshop.
Mykell: Yep, having specific tactics is great, and also having a certain mindset. So if this person has lied to you, manipulated you, you can expect that’s still happening.
Post Separation Abuse: Use Our Family Wizard
Mykell: What you do in your communication is limit the opportunities for that to occur. I’m not going to get into the emotions or reason, or I don’t like that you did that. Not having to get too deep into the weeds. When you’re getting stuff hurled at you, absolutely have those safe people you’re like, I can’t believe this happened. They can help you work through the frustration, disappointment and hurt that is necessary.
It makes it easy to say, okay, I’m only gonna show what needs to be forward facing to this person. In terms of the logistic side of this. But when it comes to all my emotional stuff, I’ve got safe people, and I know where to get the support I need.
Depending on your situation, it may cause things to get a little riled up. For a while, they want to see if they can get a reaction from you. But over time, if you’re consistent and don’t offer reactions, and we’re not trying to be friends. Then it can get to a workable place in many instances.
Anne: So for a long time on the podcast, I touted no contact, which I did through my father, and that worked, and I was like, everybody should do this. But then I had a custody case that I lost. In the process, I needed to switch to Our Family Wizard, rather than go through my dad, so that I could communicate directly with him, which I do now.
I still have blocked him on my phone, blocked him on email. And I only communicate with him through Our Family Wizard. I never communicate with him in any other way. It needs to be taken seriously for all women dealing with an abusive ex-husband.
Manipulated Parenting
Anne: Many people have this idea in their heads. One of the manipulative things he told me was, I dream of a day where we can sit on a park bench and watch our kids play and get along. He said that to me to manipulate me into communicating with him. And I’m like, that’s never going to happen. Let’s talk about that idea, the concept of co-parenting when it comes to post separation abuse. Can you co parent with an abuser?
Mykell: The word co-parenting suggests you have two people who are parenting together. We have to recognize that in some divorce cases, people can maintain an amicable relationship. In which the children are not being used as power weapons. The relationship dynamic is not this push-pull. These two people are going on with the best interests of the kids.
Because if this person is not going to put the kid’s best interest first, and is not going to play by the rules. If you can’t establish any rules without them being manipulated. Then you know that you are parenting on your own, and this person is parenting on their own.
Anne: I wouldn’t even call it parenting. It’s like you’re parenting on your own, and this other person is like actively trying to cause problems, which is not what I would call parenting.
Mykell: It’s difficult, because we want so much to have influence over what is happening in that household, and we’re just not able to. That is the part that gets really hard, it gets heavy, it’s disconcerting, it’s scary. When you’re in that kind of situation while your kids are with you, that you are present with them.
Being Your Kid’s Safe Place
Mykell: If you can bring wonderful, healthy people into their lives to do outings with them, and I’m not saying you have to be super mom. I’m not saying you have to throw these elaborate birthday parties. This is about being your kid’s safe place. So if there are unsafe things happening when they’re away from you, and this is something we would want. Whether that unsafe stuff was happening at a parent’s house or in school.
They know Mom is safe, that when I bring her my problem, she will listen and comfort me. Maybe offer some support or solutions. Learning how to do that when you yourself are underwater is hard. The investments that you put into yourself as far as your own healing and support groups will pass on to your kids. If you’re like, that sounds overwhelming. That’s a lot of things.
Even focusing on getting stable, healthy, and strong yourself, you’ll know what conversations you should bring up. You’ll know when your child says, I don’t like that, the other parents doing X, Y, or Z. They can come to you and offer them real compassion. For every little thing that happens, we worry so much that, this is not going the way I wanted. And this is going to be their doom. God is so much bigger than all the things that we’re going through with post separation abuse.
If we look at this from a long range perspective, I want to be that safe place for my kids and do the best I can to be there for them. When they start to feel the friction, and start to feel like something is wrong. They know they have an option, and whether they choose it, that’s also out of our control.
Post Separation Abuse: Use Parallel Parenting
Mykell: There are so many parts of life in general, and this is one of them, outside our control. We do our best to create a safe and solid place, beginning with our own health.
Anne: So the short answer is no. You cannot co-parent with an abuser. Parallel parenting is the way to go. You just worry about what’s going on when you’re the parent and do the best you can. And then the things he’s doing, you could confront him about it, but we all know where that goes. Speaking of parallel parenting with post separation abuse, can you talk about that for a minute?
Mykell: This goes back to trying to manage the feelings. Let’s say there’s a divorce decree, and let’s say dad is supposed to take the kids on this night and this night. It’s a fine balance here when they perhaps would say something like, oh, well, I can’t take them that night. I’ll take them this one or, oh, sorry. I had to do this, and I can’t come get them tonight. We want to say, well, this is what the paper says, this is what the agreement is.
Sometimes we might get so caught in those very specific rules. Hey no, you should want to take your kids, or you should want to be with them, or you should be coming to their things. We’re re-engaging, and it’s an open door for a discussion or argument. Their choices are their own choices. And so if the child’s not being picked up and hurts their feelings. The fix is not necessarily to say, I need to figure out a way to get him to pick our child up.
Managing Expectations
Mykell: This is a way for the child to understand his choices. Sometimes it’s hurtful to have to walk our kids through that. We can’t cover up or try to get them to do what they’re supposed to do, or make excuses. In this instance, the sugar coating is more harmful, they’re not able to discern the truth. That’s the biggest thing: always give kids as much age appropriate truth as they can digest. And that’s where learning how to offer support is so important, because it is truth, with love.
It’s truth saying. I know this is hurtful, and I’m sorry this is happening. We’re not going to be able to fix it. If we want our kids to understand where that road to healing can come from, if we’re truthful with them all along the way. How we empower our kids by giving them truth, rather than trying to sweep it under the rug, fix it, or cover it up.
Anne: Or manage an abuser’s relationship with his children.
Mykell: Yeah, I love that word “management.” It’s such a perfect word. You can’t go in there and manage everything with post separation abuse. Sometimes the best thing you can do is simply allow that thing to play itself out. And as much as we would not want to see our kids hurt, as much as we would not want them to suffer anymore. It is a greater disservice if you are whitewashing the whole thing. Making it look like it’s not, because then eventually the truth does come out.
And then they will be frustrated with you for not being truthful with them. It can cause them to feel alienated. It can cause them to feel that you’re not safe.
Empowering Children
Mykell: That’s the biggest thing that we can offer our kids in these situations with post separation abuse, is that safe place.
Anne: Yeah, that drives me crazy when someone does something clearly not a good thing that a parent would do. And a neighbor or some “helpful” bystander will say, well, of course he loves you. He’s just busy. Or of course he cares about you. He just, and I’m like, no, no, no you’re not his top priority, not that I would necessarily say that, but let that play out. And never tell your kid, of course, he loves you when you’re like, he’s incapable of loving anyone.
Mykell: And the thing that ends up happening if you do that is you’re essentially gaslighting your kid. You’re causing them to question their own reality when you call it something else.
Anne: Because they don’t feel loved, for good reason, because their dad is selfish or incapable of loving them. So in that way, what are your thoughts about raising a child in ways that prevent them from being manipulated or deceived? How can we help our kids recognize the truth with post separation abuse?
Mykell: This is something built up over time. You’re not going to have a one-time conversation with your child about the things they’re going through. Or, hey, watch out for this, and then that’s it. If you’re having ongoing conversations with them, this can even be manipulation at school with bullies. Recognizing, how did you feel when that person treated you that way?
Practicing with them what it is to identify feelings gives them the ability to process, watch and give context.
Post Separation Abuse: Equiping Children
Mykell: As they get older, they start to look at inconsistencies, recognize them, and try to make sense of them. If they do bring you a concern, that validation of what they see or feel is so good. You can do that in a way that is not making the thing personal, it’s not bashing, it’s simply saying you see a behavior and it makes you feel uncomfortable. That is normal. As they start to have those conversations with you, they can trust you.
That instinct, or that move of the Holy Spirit, the inner voice that says, something feels unsafe and uncomfortable here. What often happens, I think, in manipulative dynamics. There is some sort of off moment, some red flag, something that is seen and not acted upon, or it’s explained away.
So one of the best things we can do for our kids in post separation abuse situations is equip them. When they see something strange or bad, inconsistent or manipulative. That we can put that right word to it and say, yeah, that is confusing. It makes sense that you’d be confused in that situation. This is where, in parallel parenting, you’re not able to control what happens over at that other house.
But you can send your kids into any environment with an understanding of what to do if they feel uncomfortable. That may look different depending on whether they have devices, whether they can drive. But it’s teaching them what are those healthy ways to address these situations. Because very often they’re not going to feel they can stand up and say something, and they may feel even in the moment, like they can’t even go anywhere.
Helping Children With Safety
Mykell: It’s letting them know. Hey, if you feel something’s funny, write it down. Or if you need to text me or you need a FaceTime or you need to leave the room and go to your bedroom. Whatever it is you devise with your child, to let them know some way to get to safety. If they’re in a dangerous situation, we want to make sure they understand how to get hold of safe adults or support authorities.
Anne: Yeah, for good little kids, I liked the book, Say No, and Tell. There’s a girl version and a boy version. It’s generally about sexual abuse, but it gives many examples: this is safe, this is unsafe, this is safe, this is unsafe. Even just using books like that to start conversations about it.
My kids now tell me all the time when they feel safe or unsafe, or when they feel uncomfortable. My little six year old is so good at saying, mom, I’m uncomfortable. This makes me feel uncomfortable, and I’m grateful.
Mykell: That’s so good. Just saying uncomfortable is great. Sometimes they can’t figure out what the feeling is, or even like the word overwhelmed. Like there’s a lot of feelings. I don’t know what they all are. Saying if you don’t know what all those are right now, that’s okay. All you know is your body’s giving you an alert that you can honor that alert system. And that you can get to safety.
Anne: One of the things that victims feel, Sheroes who have pulled themselves out of the depths of abuse. They make their way to safety, and don’t feel confident. Because a lifetime of abuse or years of abuse or continued post separation abuse has really messed with our brains.
Building Confidence As A Mom
Anne: This can be true when dating after narcissistic abuse. And our psychology, and the amount of doubt we have in ourselves from emotional and psychological abuse, is pretty extreme. We’re learning to trust ourselves again. We’re learning to trust our intuition again. There are so many things that as a victim of abuse, you’re learning to do either again or for the first time. So in what ways can moms be confident in raising their kids, even in a less than ideal situation?
Mykell: Yeah, I love that you pointed to the fact that there’s a lot of doubt. That there’s the normal, like, oh my goodness, am I messing it all up? That every mom experiences. And then with abuse and post separation abuse, there’s this added layer on top of it. And it’s the inability to discern sometimes what is even going on. Sometimes it’s a paralysis of not knowing what to do. Giving yourself grace to know that’s the boat you’re in right now.
Just because you’re there right now. It doesn’t mean you’re always going to feel that way, or that if you do feel that way, you’re always going to feel powerless about it. You’re not doing this all by yourself. For me, figuring out how to raise my kids with this different life, this life I didn’t intend for us. Wonderful people dropped into my life that had walked the road before me that could show me. What this thing was supposed to look like.
And it didn’t mean everything was going to be exactly cookie cutter. Sometimes it’s moms sharing the things they’re going through in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Sharing their legal troubles or discipline issues. In support groups, you realize, I am not alone. I’m not the only one who feels like this.
Post Separation Abuse: Confidence Starts With Validation
Mykell: I’m not the only one whose kid is doing this or whose ex is doing that. So much confidence starts when your experience is validated and you’re being heard. And you see that many people are going through similar things. And when there are so many ideas around things you could do or avenues you could take. That I think is so empowering to say there’s actually more than one way to walk through this. Though I may not get it perfectly, we’re all in this together.
When you’re coming out of this kind of situation, you feel isolated, and sometimes you’ve been isolated. So self isolating is a normal thing. And forcing yourself back out and learning how to trust people can be hard. I’m so thankful that we’re in this digital age where these virtual groups are possible, a community. So when you think about what is the practical step, how do I start to do this?
Working through your own healing journey is a big part of that. And God brings the ultimate transformation for us as we walk through these things with him. But one of the practical ways we experience is with other wonderful, safe people around us.
Anne: We’ve seen that a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. It’s awesome, because there’s no right way to do it. There are principles. Using boundaries to detach and keep safe, self care, a network of support. Anyone who’s worth their salt in recovering from abuse or post separation abuse will tell you those things. Those are important tools, but sometimes implementing it is hard, and how you’re going to implement it in your own life is hard.
Group Meetings Are Important For Recovery
Anne: Being part of a group and hearing how other women do it, or hearing other women and realizing, that doesn’t sound like it’s working. You don’t have to say that out loud, but at least you can hear it and think, okay, I don’t want to try that. It’s cool to share what’s happening with you and hear what’s happening with other people. Then the freedom to choose what you want to do. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t recommend any particular life decisions.
We put safety as the top priority, emotional, psychological, and physical. How you do that is up to you. I think women need the support of a community without the dogma of the community. Does that make sense?
Mykell: Yeah, the thing that is so critical about what you’re saying is the style points. She did it this way, and that doesn’t fit my personality, but she did it this way. There’s so much in recovery that is about finding your own voice and making choices for yourself. And so many of these things, like you said, boundaries is a perfect example. Boundaries were so hard for me. I didn’t realize I didn’t have any. Or I didn’t realize that mine were so porous.
And I would look at other women and be like, oh, no, that’s so abrupt. I don’t like the way they’re doing that. In the midst of getting to know different people, though, it was like, oh, that style works for me. It’s rediscovering, and I actually don’t like to say rediscovering, because I don’t know if we ever knew ourselves. Sometimes with these things, it’s discovering who you are, what your unique voice is, and how you can assert yourself in these instances of abuse and post separation abuse.
Christian Perspectives On Abuse
Mykell: It’s empowering. I’m feeling juiced up as I say this, to start to recognize how much agency you have. That’s what makes many of these tactics come to life. When you start to figure out your own voice.
Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re interfaith, inter paradigm. We have atheists who listen, we have agnostics, and all denominations of Christianity, Jewish women, everyone is welcome here. Talk about some of the Christian myths or unhealthy cultural ideas in Christianity that harm women and keep them stuck in abuse.
Mykell: One of the things we have to separate out, and this is not just when it comes to abuse or post separation abuse. There are so many areas. Not always do people reflect the heart of God perfectly. People, whether intentionally or unintentionally, can hurt each other with the banner of the gospel to justify their choices or behaviors. And recognize that there are some things that maybe a woman’s been told.
Maybe she’s witnessed, maybe she’s experienced, maybe she’s been raised up in systems, all these kinds of things that don’t necessarily reflect the heart of God. So often there is this sense that whether it’s the husband or ex-husband who’s the abuser. Often women receive advice, and it’s well meaning in abuse or post separation abuse. But sometimes the advice is, you be the best you can be, and this person will change.
Biblically, the word says God hates abuse. He hates it. In Proverbs 6, you can read through there. It says there are seven things God hates, and it lists off lying lips and hands that shed blood, and all these things. That if you look at them, they are the behaviors of an abuser.
Anne: Adultery, lust.
Post Separation Abuse: Biblical Teachings On Abuse
Mykell: There’s a passage, and I’m going to mess it up right now because it’s not sitting in front of me, but I believe it’s in 2nd Timothy 1. Paul says to Timothy, in the last days, people will be lovers of self. They’re going to be abusive. They’re going to look like they have godliness, that they’re going to portray godliness, but be totally lacking its power. And that we should avoid such people.
Those are pretty clear statements to say that you need to get away from somebody who’s abusive, someone who is using spiritual means to manipulate other people.
And Paul thought it was so obvious and so dangerous that he thought to write to Timothy about it. And so we should take that same warning. With a community of believers, there’s vulnerability, and with that comes manipulation from people who would use it for selfish gain.
So the intention in our communities should be to offer safety and vulnerability, and to ensure that we are clear about rooting out what would take advantage of that. That’s not always the message that people receive that are in abusive type of circumstances.
Anne: In the church, when you talk about evil, or you talk about wolves in sheep’s clothing. You’re thinking about it as someone outside the church who’s trying to lure you away from the church. Or trying to influence you to not live the commandments. And it’s so infrequent that anyone addresses evil in the church. Or in your own home.
Recognizing Evil
Mykell: Yeah, and the Bible says Satan will masquerade as an angel of light. We need to recognize that. Yes, can there be people from the outside trying to come in and infiltrate the inside? 100%, but do they also exist on the inside? Also, yes, 100%.
Anne: Right, and it might be in your own home.
Mykell: Mm hmm, that’s right. We have to recognize, and Jesus goes through the steps in Matthew 18. We are called to see it, call it what it is, and we’re called to move ourselves away from that and get to safety. That is a biblical way of handling an abusive situation. Your life is precious to God, and all that is designed to keep you very much fixed in the center of his love and protection for you.
There’s only so much you can do to walk with somebody when they are resistant. They don’t want to see the truth, that we’re called to move ourselves away from that, so that they can walk in their own path. God desires safety for his people, does desire them to flourish. He desires each woman in this instance to become the woman he had designed her to be, and not sacrifice that for the sake of a person who is not willing to turn their lives over.
Anne: They’re essentially sacrificing it to evil almost. And women think of it as sacrificing themselves to something better, because they’re trying to protect their families. But the reality is they’re not sacrificing themselves to something better. They’re sacrificing themselves to abuse, which is not the better way.
Calling Out & Separating From Wickedness
Mykell: Calling it evil is so important. If the Bible says God hates it, we should hate it. If it says it’s evil, we should call it evil. It’s not a bad behavior. bad manners, or short temper. It’s evil. All of these things are considered abuse.
Anne: The scriptures don’t say abuser, the scriptures use the word wicked. I’m loving that word.
Mykell: Right, in Proverbs often you’ll see the word wicked, mocker, sometimes fool. Proverbs uses a handful of different words to describe people who do these things. But in all these instances, it says to get away. It says if you rebuke a mocker, they’re going to abuse you. So that says you’re not going to have a reasonable conversation with this person. Sometimes your separation, your distance, your movement away from this person is the communication.
It’s certainly meant for you to gain some distance and safety, because it’s much more likely they’re going to influence you than you’re going to influence them.
Anne: We suffer from betrayal trauma, which changes the way we think, changes our brains, changes our chemistry in our bodies. So many women suffer from health problems and depression. It’s a serious issue. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
Hundreds Of Years Of Fairy Tales Have Harmed Women With Jane Gilmore
Jun 06, 2023
Fairy tales have harmed women for centuries. Fairy tales often vilify women’s anger, undermine their pursuit of financial independence, and set unrealistic expectations. These biases shift the focus from abusers to women, making them see themselves as the problem. Join Anne Blythe, M.Ed, Host and Jane Gillmore as they discuss misogyny and fairy tales.
Fairy Tales Harmed Women: Vilification of Women’s Anger
Society often labels women’s anger as overreacting, in stark contrast to men’s anger, which is seen as justified. This double standard shifts the focus from the abusers to the women, conditioning them to see themselves as the problem, rather than addressing the root cause of their frustration.
Of course, women will be angry if they’re oppressed and abused! To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
Fairy Tales Have Harmed Women: Financial Independence Double Standard
Women are often condemned for seeking financial independence, a desire celebrated in men. This contradiction highlights the gender bias in societal expectations, undermining women’s right to financial security and autonomy.
The expectation for women to set boundaries calmly is unrealistic and unfair. It parallels the absurdity of asking women to call the police without anger if they witness a crime, illustrating how these societal scripts demand unrealistic levels of composure from women, even in distressing situations.
Fairy Tales harm Women by Normalizing Misogyny
Stories like “Beauty and the Beast” perpetuate misogynistic tropes by suggesting that men need women to become better people. This harmful narrative places undue responsibility on women for men’s behavior and personal growth. Which reinforces gender roles that confine women to supportive and transformative roles. Without considering their own needs for autonomy and respect.
Transcript: How Fairy Tales Have Harmed Women
Anne: I have Jane Gilmore on today’s episode. Jane is a writer, speaker, and feminist, and you can find her at janegilmore.com. Welcome Jane.
Jane: Thank you. And it’s so lovely to be here.
Anne: I love talking to you. Jane is on today to talk about her new book, Fairy Tale Princesses Will Kill Your Children. The Little Mermaid is a personal nemesis. So I wanted her to talk about this new book and how it can help all women who are going through abuse recognize it, set boundaries and get to safety. So let’s start, Jane, with what gave you the idea that this book needed to be written?
Jane: Well, I’m living in Melbourne, and we had such a long lockdown during the first part of COVID. Like, basically two years we were in and out of lockdown. And you start going into weird places when you’re at home that long. I haven’t paid much attention to fairy tales since I was a kid. For some reason, I watched the Snow White movie on the Disney Channel. I was horrified.
This is a children’s movie, mostly aimed at little girls, and the misogyny in it was so deep, but it was more than that. It was this idealization of women being not just helpless and submissive, but actively participating in other people abusing them. And I was thinking, oh, this is just because it’s old. This is not what they’re like.
So I started looking into them and the five stories I chose for this book, which I retold. Along with an essay about why, were Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid. I show how fairy tales have harmed women.
Themes In Fairy Tales
Jane: And when I started looking into them, it was so clear that Snow White was about making other women the enemy, not men. Sleeping Beauty is obviously about consent. Cinderella is about women’s unpaid labor that we are supposed to do, not just uncomplaining, but enjoying our manipulation to serve mostly men. The Little Mermaid is about staying silent in the face of somebody, constantly diminishing you.
Beauty and the Beast is coercive control. If you love him enough, he will turn into your handsome prince. This angry, dangerous, violent man just needs you to love him more. And if he doesn’t turn into your handsome prince, it’s your fault for not trying harder. And that’s what these fairy tales are about.
They’re telling little girls that the way to be a good woman, a proper woman, a fairy tale princess that the defining characteristic is what they call unselfish. Which is to not ask anything for yourself, to not think that you deserve respect, kindness, agency, or money. That to even ask for those things, to even want those things, even if you don’t ask for them, makes you morally culpable.
And you don’t see it when you first look at it because, Oh, aren’t they pretty? They get the handsome prince and everybody gets married and lives happily ever after. And isn’t that wonderful. But the underlying message is, It is wrong for you to want anything for yourself, including self respect, fairy tales have caused women so much harm.
Anne: I want to tell a quick story of a friend who was finally divorced from her first abuser. She was dating, and met this man. She told me how wonderful he is, and his ex was such a gold digger. I was like, whoa, what? Red flag there, we’ve got another abuser on your hands. He said, she’s such a gold digger, she wanted me for my money. Then she says to me, he has a lot of money. I don’t care about that, that’s not what I’m interested in. I just want a good relationship.
They go on a trip, and he’s like, get anything you want. What would you like to buy? And she says to him, oh no, I’m not like that. I’m not into money like your ex. I don’t want anything. I was like, whoa, stop again. He’s already groomed you. An example of how fairy tales have harmed women is by silencing their wants and needs.
Jane: Yes.
Anne: To not want anything already, and you didn’t even know. She thought he was so nice and everything went well. And I was like, he’s already groomed you to say that you don’t want money or need anything. If you marry him, you realize you’ll be like, hey, I’m going to the grocery store and he’ll be like, what again? You just married me for my money, like my ex. He’s setting you up for this. Of course, I couldn’t keep my mouth shut. I should have kept my mouth shut.
And so I said to her, if you’re going to continue dating him, if he says that again, what would you like? Say, oh, I want this and buy something expensive. Something like $150. Not like super expensive, even if you don’t want it.
The Gold Digger Label harms Women
Anne: If he says get anything you want, try it out. See what happens. She was like, no, what? And I said, never ever say I’m not a gold digger, I’m not like that. Say, oh, that makes sense that your wife wanted a roof over her head and groceries, most women do. Fairy tales have harmed women by this “unselfish” ideal.
Jane: To me, the warning sign is always, if you take the word that they’re trying to get you to prove that you’re not like gold digger is a perfect one. Is there an equivalent? It’s a word that can apply to any gender because if it’s just about women, then again, it’s tying into that. Are you a good woman?
You’re not like other girls, prove to me that you can be all the things I can use to manipulate you. Gold digger is such a good one, because in men that’s called ambition, and it’s a good thing.
Anne: The other one is the that she said, the same woman, his ex never gave him any sex. It was a sexless marriage, and he was really deprived. And I said, anytime a man says that to you, this is how you respond. Again, gave her advice she didn’t ask for. I have a bad habit of doing that. And I don’t know if I’m going to stop. But I said, this is what you say. You say, oh, I’m so glad she did what she wanted to. I love it when women do that.
Fairy Tales Have Harm Women because Women Are taking the Blame
Jane: Yes, and the other thing always is that I’ve got one of these in one of the regular talks I do. A study found that women become less interested in it the longer a relationship goes on. And then you flip it around and go, what if it’s men becoming less appealing?
In a relationship, because they do less to earn your respect, your trust, your joy, your sense of fun, and your desire. And that you are constantly on edge and afraid. And that walking on eggshells feeling, nobody feels like it when they’re walking on eggshells all the time. So if you can’t see that those two things are connected, and somebody is saying to you, this is your fault.
This is all your fault. You’re not interested in sex. You’re not trying hard enough and not this is our relationship and we care what goes on here. Again, massive red flag.
Anne: As you studied all these different ways fairy tales harm women, what were some of the overarching themes that showed up in all of them.
https://youtube.com/shorts/24dkj4GtJ1o
Overarching Themes in Fairy Tales
Jane: I was surprised about some of them, not because they were shocking, but because I didn’t realize how deeply embedded they are in this fairy tale princess myth. One of them was this constant idea that men are not responsible for anything. That the villain is always other women, the wicked stepmother, the wicked stepsisters. The man is either the prize you get for being unselfish, the handsome prince, or the father who has no responsibility at all.
So every fairy tale princess, her mother dies when she’s a baby. Except for a Sleeping Beauty, and the mother doesn’t come into the story at all. And the father is the king who might send people out to run a mission or something, but he’s never responsible for his daughter.
He marries another woman, because of course he couldn’t be expected to bring up a child on his own. And the evil stepmother becomes the villain. And there is no point in the story where the men who make choices that affect women’s lives have any responsibility for those choices. Fairy tales have harmed women, because in them women are powerless.
So Snow White, for instance, which was the first one I did. I was shocked when I returned to the original story by the Grimm brothers. Snow White is seven years old in the story. She’s seven years old. She is a child. She’s taken off to the woods by a hunter under orders from her evil stepmother. The hunter is ordered to kill her in the original story. He’s supposed to cut out her heart and lungs to take back to the evil stepmother so she can eat them.
How Fairy Tales Harm Women In Snow White
Jane: So she won’t show visible signs of aging, because the most wicked thing any woman can do is visibly age and still expect to have a place in the world. Snow White is seven, she goes off, finds the seven dwarves, she immediately takes on all their domestic labor and sings songs about how much fun it is. And how wonderful it is that she does all the work to look after seven men, and how much she loves it. Fairy tales harm women by showing them in subservient roles.
Then the evil stepmother poisons her, and they think she’s dead. So they put her in a glass box, and a handsome prince comes past and sees a dead child in a glass box. And says, oh, that’s beautiful, that’s mine, I want it. And the seven dwarfs immediately recognize that he’s a rich, powerful man. So he should have the beautiful dead girl that he wants.
Oh, brilliant, you’re awake now, you can be my wife. And she says, oh, thank you. Yes, I’d love that. That’s the Snow White story. And that was the one I rewrote. So I didn’t change the plot at all. I just rewrote it to point out all these things about, wow, this is the story we tell little girls, and little girls still dress up as Snow White. They want to be like Snow White. And this idea that when other women are the thing that will put young girls in danger. Which we know is just not true.
And I’m not saying that other women don’t have their problems. They absolutely do. We can get into all kinds of discussions about that, but other women are not the threat to your life.
Fairy Tale Stories Are Supposedly Safe
Jane: Other women won’t commit the kind of abuse your male partner will. But nowhere in a fairy tale princesses story is The handsome prince ever the problem. This is one way fairy tales harm women. The story ends when they get married and the marriage is never a part of the story. It’s why the mother dies at the beginning of all the fairy tale princess stories, because marriage and children and the relationship itself is not the fairy tale princess myth.
It’s be good and beautiful, submissive, kind and unselfish. And do everything you can to prove how much you deserve a handsome prince. And then your story ends.
Anne: It’s almost like that’s where the man wants it to end. He’s like, okay, you’re beautiful. You do all the domestic labor. You don’t have a voice. And I can do no wrong. Then marriage, and then I own you, and you have to do whatever I say because of coverture laws. You’re literally my property in the day when these were written, and you’re essentially my domestic slave. And that is a happy ending for me. This is how fairy tales have harmed women.
Jane: Yes, these are the stories we all grew up on, and it’s not even the Grimm Brothers stories, which were horrific, but the Disney stories. And again, you think Snow White, that’s a hundred years ago. Whoever watches that, Disney plus has over a hundred million subscribers. I’ve got little kids and I’m going, okay, God, I just need an hour to myself, put them down in front of the electronic babysitter.
I know it’s not ideal, but we’ve all done it, come on. And you think, well, the Disney channel, they’ve got to be safe there, right?
Sleeping Beauty: The Original Story
Jane: And then you have the quintessential fairytale princess, Sleeping Beauty. The first published one I could find was from Italy in about 1500. Her name is Talia. Talia has the curse, falls asleep. It’s not a handsome prince. It’s a King from a neighboring country who finds her asleep, looks at her and says, oh, wonderful. Tries to wake her up, fails. So he impregnates her. Now we know what the word for that is, right? That’s?
Anne: Rape.
Jane: That’s rape. She eventually wakes up after she’s had twins, and is so delighted to find that while she was unconscious, somebody impregnated her. She doesn’t remember who and has babies. So, he meanwhile forgot about her, and this is specifically in the story. Then he remembered her and came back presumably to do it again.
Anne: What?
Jane: Yeah, he finds her and the babies. And she’s like, oh, how wonderful to meet you. Finally, the father of my children. I’m in love. Let’s get married. And he’s like, okay. Sure. But there’s just a problem. I’ve already got a wife, but nevermind. Let’s go back to my place, and we’ll find the wife. I’ll kill her, and then we can get married, and everything will be fine.
In the original story, I think it’s called Talia and the Summer and Stars. It’s available online because it’s not copyrighted anymore. They return to his place. He says he’s going to kill his wife, but then she tries to kill Sleeping Beauty first and the children.
Anne: Because she’s the bad one, not him.
Jane: She’s the evil one. not him. He’s the hero of this story.
Disney’s Sanitization Of Fairy Tales
Jane: She fails in her attempts to kill Sleeping Beauty, and the children. Mind you, she does this by telling the servants to kill them and serve them up to Sleeping Beauty and the King as dinner. The servants say, oh, maybe we won’t kill and cook the babies. So no, they tell the King. He sets his wife on fire and burns her alive, and then marries Sleeping Beauty. And they live happily ever after such a cute story, right?
Anne: This is horrifying.
Jane: So bad. And obviously Disney sanitized this a lot, because we wouldn’t let our children watch that movie. But essentially, it’s the same story. She sleeps through her entire story. This is how much agency that story wants to give women. This is how fairy tales have harm women. You are unconscious while we tell your story. But the handsome prince kisses her while she’s asleep, which is Disney’s version of rape.
And she wakes up and, oh, my handsome prince, how wonderful. Let’s get married. That’s her story. Because the idea that a woman needs to be conscious and talking, and having a personality and ideas, thoughts, feelings, desires and wants for a man to fall in love with her, is so abhorrent that we have to make Sleeping Beauty unconscious. For the handsome prince to want her agency that we’re giving little girls in this story.
Anne: Wow, I love your stuff, Jane. You are so smart. You say it and I’m like, Oh, that’s so good. Why didn’t I think of that? Love it.
Jane: Because honestly, this was how I spent most of lockdown. I was just reading through these stories.
Shocked By Fairy Tale Research
Jane: Going, okay, so what does that mean? And where does it come from? And where’s the, oh my, that’s the original story that comes from. That was my pandemic experience.
Anne: So I’ve been shocked. I mean, Disney tries to be inclusive and modern and whatever. So when the new real life Beauty and the Beast came out with Emma Watson. I thought, surely they have fixed this to not be so terrible, like Stockholm syndrome, which is not a thing. Women are just trying to survive. They’re not falling in love with anyone. So like, surely they have fixed this, but it was exactly the same as their cartoon. This is how fairy tales have harmed women.
And I thought, what is happening? Like, did they not notice? Cause in my head, I have it rewritten so it works perfectly. So that they could fall in love. And she would not be coerced and or abused and or treated bad, and it would make sense. But like, I couldn’t believe they did the same thing over again when they seem maybe like they’re trying to be committed to not being misogynists.
Jane: I had exactly the same reaction when I watched it. Cause like you, I thought, Oh, they’re doing a real life version. It’s Emma Watson. Surely they’ll fix all this. And I had exactly the same reaction as you. I was like, this is almost word for word, the cartoon version. What is going on here?
Anne: 2017.
Jane: Yeah, right.
Anne: That’s almost post Me Too.
Jane: Yeah. And it is absolutely a story of control and abuse in both of them. He’s so angry and he’s punching walls around her and he’s terrifying her. And the solution is for her to love him more.
Fairy Tales Have Harm Women by telling her If She Loves Him Enough, He Will Change
Jane: Yeah, do more to turn him into the handsome prince. He has no responsibility to change his behavior. That’s up to her. If she loves him enough, his behavior will magically change. But he has no responsibility at all. And that’s the story of Beauty and the Beast. Which tells women that when a man is so angry, even before he’s physically violent. That you are genuinely terrified, then your responsibility is to try harder to please him.
So when I started going into these stories, as I said, I watched the Snow White movie. And I was so horrified by it that at the time I wasn’t planning on a book or anything. I had to rewrite it, just for my own satisfaction. Because I get obsessive about these things, I couldn’t let it go. And so I started looking at the other movies and started rewriting them as well. When I got to Sleeping Beauty, I couldn’t rewrite the same plot.
I could not write a story about a woman where she is unconscious throughout her story. So I changed it, and I am far from the first writer or feminist to ever do this. There’s a long and glorious history of feminists rewriting fairy tales to point out how horrific they are. And what women’s stories can be like if they’re that horrific. So Sleeping Beauty, I actually just went, okay, I’m going to go the full feminist fantasy.
What would the Sleeping Beauty story be if women actually wrote it for women? About the sort of lives that are in an ideal world that we wish we had. Fairy tales have harmed women, so I rewrote them to help women.
Having Fun Rewriting harmful fairytales
Jane: So I went to the full other extreme of the Snow White story, which I rewrote according to the Snow White plot, but just to point out how horrific it was. And that was a lot of fun. That felt redemptive. It felt I’d taken control of it. And again, this was all for me. So then I think the next one I did was Beauty and the Beast. And I was going back and forth between rewriting it so that she had a good outcome, a good story.
I was trying to think, how do I write this so that she has a good, equal, respectful, happy relationship? And then I thought, in all these fairy tale stories, the prize at the end for the fairytale princess is marriage. It is a man, a relationship. And there are so many other things that women want that we do, work for, and take pride in. And there are so many stories about the happy ever after ending, and I didn’t want to write another one.
So I rewrote a couple of them with a happy ending that didn’t relate to having a good relationship with a man. It was about other things that women can want. But Beauty and the Beast, I thought maybe I give her the ending of the relationship, but a realistic one of what a relationship actually looks like. When you start with a man who’s frighteningly angry at the beginning, who is controlling and abusive fairly early on, and then you get married.
What is that relationship actually? How does that end? Because it does not end happily ever after. We know that, never. There’s no way that relationship ends happily.
Publishing The Book
Jane: That one took me to some pretty dark places actually. And I was, I was hesitant about publishing it. Because it ended the way I know too many of these relationships do. This was when I started to think, actually, you know what? I need to publish these. Because this is the point of what I’m doing.
It’s pointing out what these fairy tale princesses are telling little girls and young women about what they should expect from their lives, what they should hope for, what they should plan for and dream of. And this is the reality of that violent, controlling, abusive man. So yes, I should actually write this, and then I should publish it. People may disagree with it, they may not like it, they may not read it, that’s fine.
But that was when I started to think, okay, let’s do more and put them out into the world.
Anne: I love it. Fairy tales have harmed women, you want to educate them.
Jane: Then I went on to The Little Mermaid and watched the Disney movie, which is all cute and awful. And then went back and read the Hans Christian Andersen, original story. If you want to be truly horrified, read the Hans Christian Andersen story. It’s an entire short story written to tell women to keep quiet. If you are in pain, stay silent. If you are bleeding, don’t upset people by telling anyone about it.
In the original story. They cut her tail to turn into legs, and she feels like she’s walking on knives. She leaves a trail of bloody footprints behind her with every step she takes. But she smiles and dances for the handsome prince because that’s what he wants her to do.
The Pain Of Changing For A Man
Anne: Wow. I’m not trying to justify this story, because like I said, The Little Mermaid is my nemesis. I don’t like it. But in the original version, could that be interpreted to say it’s going to be painful to you if you try to change for a man?
Jane: Oh, look, I wish that was the case. I wish I could say yes. I wish I could say yes, that’s what we’re aiming for here. But no, it’s about women. You will experience pain in trying to change for a man, and that will only work if you stay silent about it. And eventually he might love you. In the original story, he doesn’t. He falls in love with somebody else who’s a proper woman. A real woman who can praise the handsome prince, agree with him, and laugh at all his jokes.
So the Little Mermaid kills herself. I swear to God, this is what happens in the original story. She throws herself off the side of the ship, and angels come to her and say, “It’s okay, because you chose to die rather than cause pain to the handsome prince and his new bride. You get to live as a sort of spirit guide for the next 300 years.”
And if you do enough, you will eventually go to heaven. That’s her salvation for failing to win the handsome prince is 300 years of silent, unrecognized servitude to the world to earn her place in heaven.
Anne: Like a nun.
Jane: Yeah.
Anne: Like if you can’t get a husband, the next best thing you can do is do service to the world in another way. Fairy tales harm women, this one sacrifices her.
Fairy Tales Have Harm Women by Sanitizing Happy Endings
Jane: Yes, but you have to die, so nobody can see you or hear you doing it. So you do it as a ghost. It’s staggering, this is the Little Mermaid story. Now, obviously, again, Disney sanitized it, and they get the happy ever after.
Anne: Sanitize? Well, even the Disney version is awful. You have to give up your voice for a man to like you. And he falls in love with her, by the way. My kids, they hear me say this stuff, they’re like, Mom, why do we always have to talk about misogyny? Why can’t we just watch a movie? And I’m like, because it’s so blatant. I have to point it out to you. Anyway, they loved the end of the new one, the one that just came out where it says like years later. Did you notice that?
Jane: I haven’t seen that one. I was honestly reaching the point where I couldn’t take it anymore. I’d done these five stories and literally watched dozens and dozens of Disney movies.
Anne: Totally, so the new one, at the end, she can talk, and they don’t get married. And then, sorry, ruining it for everyone. I should have said spoiler alert, but then it says years later. You assume they’ve gotten to know each other, and then they decide to get married.
Jane: But again, marriage is the happy ending and they’ve tacked on this little bit at the end.
Anne: Exactly, my kids thought it was funny. They were like, yeah, right. So they just throw it years later in and solves everything. They were being really sarcastic about it.
Other Disney Movies
Jane: The getting to know somebody and the developing a relationship of trust and respect and happiness and support.
Anne: That’s boring. And you just cover that in a years later .
Jane: Yeah, that’s not the story. I have to say, I was going through the Disney catalog. The only one I saw that I genuinely thought was a delight was Encanto. That one I liked. It was cute. It was real, like the people didn’t look like little white skinny stick figures. They had a variety of women with a variety of stories, because we’re not all one thing, right? And that one I actually liked.
But the other one, it’s not in the book, but just in the research. I watched Frozen, which was supposedly lauded as Disney finally discovered feminism. No! There are two women. They’re sisters, they have a relationship that’s not just about men. Instead of the helpless fairy tale princess, Anna is the Disney version of the manic pixie dream girl. She’s funny, clumsy, and chatters too much. She is charming, and she’s there to fix him. So he starts off angry, violent, and mean.
Anne: Kristoff starts out mean? Really? This conditions women to belive it’s normal if their husband is always yelling.
Jane: He’s angry with her. Like he doesn’t like her and he’s mean to her.
Anne: Oh, I see what you mean, but it’s not like over the top mean.
Jane: He’s not beast mean, but he’s mean to her. And he doesn’t like her or respect her. He doesn’t think that she can do anything,. and doesn’t share anything with her. He’s just dismissive and rude. So no, he’s not the beast, you know, Disney’s run past that.
Elsa’s Story: A Different Kind of Feminism
Jane: But you scratch the surface a little bit. And here’s this man who doesn’t look at her when he talks to her and doesn’t take her seriously. He thinks she’s just stupid and incapable and can’t do anything. And she tumbles along and has a lovely time and la, la, la, la. And slowly, he learns to become a good person because of her. That’s the role of the manic pixie dream girl is to fix men. And that’s Anna. Elsa has a different story.
She doesn’t have a story about a man. Which I think is the reason it looks like a feminist movie is because it’s the first time ever that a fairy tale princess in a Disney movie doesn’t have a happy ending that revolves around getting married. But her story is that she has this power inherent to her. And it’s dangerous for her to use it. People get hurt when she does. So what she’s got to learn is to use her power for other people, not herself.
If she uses it for herself in the service of her own dreams and ambitions, that’s cruel, wrong, and bad, and she becomes wicked. But if she uses it in the service of others, she can live a life of service to others and be a hero.
Anne: That kind of reminds me of the, you can set boundaries, but don’t do it in anger, kind of vibe. So like these men do these awful things to them, lie to them, full on emotional, psychological abuse, and sexual coercion.
And maybe they’re in couple therapy. And it’ll be like, well, yes, set boundaries, because his behavior has been unhealthy. That makes sense.
Fairy Tales Have Harm Women by villifying Women’s Anger
Anne: But like, do you need to be so angry about it? Like we need to set boundaries, but not in anger. How can you have compassion while setting boundaries? And the question I always ask is if someone hijacked a car and witnessed it. So you’re going to pick up your phone and call 911. Would anybody tell you, but take a pause, breathe, and make sure that when you call the police, you don’t do it in anger?
Jane: Because it’s particularly women being angry with men that is so reprehensible. That women’s anger immediately means they’re crazy, being oversensitive, overreacting. When men get angry, they’re just reacting. When women get angry, they’re overreacting and they’re unreasonable by definition of being angry.
Again, it’s that part of that myth designed to tell women when somebody is being cruel to you, the problem is you. If you’re angry about it, if you’re traumatized by it, if you show visible signs of that trauma, you are the problem. Not the abuse, not the man who did it. The problem is you, and you need to fix you. And then maybe you can go back and fix him. They are structural institutions designed to force women into believing that when they are being abused, they are the problem.
So continue to submit to the abuse. Continue to not just submit to it, but play into it by telling yourself, I just need to try harder. I need to do more instead of saying to women, right, you should be angry. You should be furious. You should be so enraged by what this man has done to you.
Fairy Tales Have Harmed Women: Financial Independence & Security
Anne: So there’s the abuse. Then there’s the overall societal system of oppression. that supports these ideas to continually oppress women and keep women from being true equals to men in being taken seriously, in being able to express their views and have them valid in taking up space, in not being exploited for domestic labor.
Jane: Yes, absolutely, and you can see that so clearly. Again, going back to the fairy tale princesses, the idea that you could want money, which is always in women, like the going back to the gold digger idea. It’s always taken as being avaricious, as you just want money.
Because you want things, but men wanting money is admirable, but wanting money is about wanting security. If I have my own money, if I have a place to live, if I can support myself. Firstly, I don’t need a man. So I might choose you, but I also might choose not to, that idea is so threatening. I don’t need you. I will just choose you. And so you have to deserve it. If you don’t, I can choose something else.
That’s what having money does. It’s not about, Oh, I can be vain and cruel and an evil step sister. It’s I can be independent and make my own choices. That idea is such a threat to all the myths that we need women to buy into for abuse to continue.
Anne: And for exploitation and oppression to continue. Fairy Tales Harm Women by idealizing abuse.
Jane: Exactly.
Domestic Labor & Fairytale Princesses
Jane: So one of the ways that those systemic things work is by forcing women to do all that unpaid work, all that domestic labor. And there’s Snow White singing, whistling while she works. Because domestic labor is so much fun, I love it, and that makes me a good woman that a handsome prince will want to marry.
Cinderella does the same thing, there are the evil stepsisters who want a handsome prince because he’s rich. They’re gold diggers, they want the jewels and beautiful dresses. And that makes them evil. But Cinderella, by not wanting those things, proves she can deserve them. Actively not wanting them. So that’s the idea we set up for women.
Anne: It’s the same idea when an abuser tells you, well, if you wouldn’t have said something, I would have done it.
Jane: Yes, exactly.
Anne: Right, and you’re like, well, you didn’t do it. And so I said something. So what are you talking about? If I hadn’t said something, you would have done it. It should be done. But now that I said it, you’re not going to do it? So what? It’s like this circular insanity.
Jane: Yep, but if you point that out, you’re being oversensitive and hysterical. So you just get stuck in this logic loop that you can’t get out of until you can sit back and look at the myths. And say, this is the story you’re trying to tell me. And that story is rubbish. It’s like beauty standards. They are impossible to meet. They are designed to be impossible to meet. Fairy tales have harmed women by setting up impossible standards.
Fairy Tales Have Harm Women by imposing Impossibly High Standards For Women
Jane: You are too skinny or not skinny enough, too white or not white enough, too busty or not busty enough. You are too pretty or you’re not pretty enough. You are too submissive or you’re not submissive enough, trying too hard or not trying hard enough. The point of those standards is impossible to meet, so it can always be your fault if something goes wrong. And those fairytale princesses are part of that myth. They’re everywhere.
And you said before that your kids, my kids used to do this too. Oh, why do we have to talk about feminism again? Mom, come on. Can we just watch a movie? And I get it, but where these ideas are at their most dangerous is when we don’t see them.
Anne: Oh, I’m like, it’s fine. If you watch it, if we deconstruct it so that you can start seeing this everywhere. But if you watch it without deconstructing it, that is dangerous, and I’m not going to do that.
Jane: Absolutely, the most dangerous ideas are the ones we don’t know that we have. So if they’re floating around in the back of your mind, and you’re not able to look at them and see what they are. And where they come from, that’s when people can use them against you. And we all have them. I can’t remember if I said this previously, but I talk about this a lot, because I’m such a feminist. And I write about this, and I do this as my work, my study, and my play all the time.
I Rewrote fairytales To Help Women
Jane: And still, when my kids were seven and nine, my daughter had to say to me, hey, why is it my job to unstack the dishwasher on my brother’s job to take the rubbish out? And I’m like, darling, that’s the patriarchy. That’s why that’s happening. No, like I was doing, I was the one assigning the tasks, you know, and I didn’t see it. So these things are embedded in us that we have to constantly look for them. And if you don’t know what to look for, how can you?
Anne: I want everyone to buy this book. It is incredible. It’s called Fairytale Princesses Will Kill Your Children. You’re a woman after my own heart, because I want to rewrite it. So, I just want to play this game for a second if you don’t mind. The game I want to play is one that I play with my kids. And it is what would make this appropriate. And for Beauty and the Beast, my kids did not want to watch the new one. Fairy tales have harmed women, so let’s make this one safe.
They hate the cartoon version. And I said, well, let’s watch it, because I wanted to watch it. Of course, they’ve changed it. They didn’t, so we were all horrified. But we played the game, what would have made this okay? She’s in the woods. Her dad is sick and injured.
And the Beast comes along and he says, Look, I know you think I’m scary. I understand why you’d think this. I have this castle here. Only if you want me to, I take your dad there and hopefully get him better. He’s super nice. There’s no problems, he’s fine.
Men Can’t See The Problems
Anne: She feels safe to take her dad to the castle to get medical attention. Then the Beast lets her go, and she just comes back, and he’s super nice. How hard can this be? Fairy tales have harmed women, why can’t we make them safe?
Jane: I think it’s to do with the number of men in decision-making roles, it’s not because all those men are abusive or misogynist. I don’t think that’s true, but you must’ve experienced that thing where there’s a guy you meet through work or friendship circle. And you say to other women, something about him is just off, there’s something creepy about him. Most other women immediately know what you’re talking about.
And men will go, Oh no, he’s a good guy, what are you talking about? And they make you feel silly for saying it. It’s that because men don’t get it. They don’t see what that guy just gives off bad vibes. It just gives you the creeps, how threatening that can feel, because they don’t tend to feel that kind of threat. And even men who are not, like I said, abusive and misogynist will still say, I don’t get it. So it makes it very hard for them to tell those stories.
When you look at the writers, show runners, directors and producers of most of the stories we get. Most of them are men. So they’re telling it from a male perspective, and they just don’t understand what it’s like to experience that. And to return to your game, I agree with you. One of the things I would like to see would be not that the beast is the beast. Because of an evil old woman made him that way, but because he chose to be that way.
The harmful Myth of the Evil Witch
Jane: And his ability to choose another way without a woman having to do it for him, without having to say, let’s go to therapy. And let me use that as a way to manipulate you. I’m going to choose to be a different person, and I’m going to work on that myself. And I’m not going to make my mother, my wife, my sisters, my friends be responsible for making me a better man.
I could talk about this for hours, and I frequently do, but the evil witch myth again, in all those fairy tale princesses, so many of them, there is an evil witch, she’s old. The evil witches are women with some kind of power. Either by age, which brings wisdom and experience, or magic, or beauty, they have some kind of power.
Anne: Or even money, like an evil stepmother, she has the money that the husband used to have.
Jane: Yep, and that’s what makes her evil, is age or power. And age is a form of power, although we usually don’t acknowledge that in women. But that’s what makes an evil witch, is a woman who has power. And that’s what the whole thing in reality. When they used to burn women, tens of thousands of women were killed and tortured for being witches. Any woman who had knowledge or power could be accused of being a witch and punished for it by being killed.
That was reality. And in those stories, they become any woman who is powerful. And that woman then becomes responsible for what a man does, that’s wrong. Fairy tales have harmed women and blamed them.
Beauty And The Beast: A Deeper Look
Jane: So Beauty and the Beast, the Beast was a good man who was cursed by a powerful woman into being a bad man, and it’s her fault, and then Beauty comes along and saves him.
Anne: Wait, in the original, was he a good man and got turned into a bad man? Because in the Disney movie, the reason why she puts the spell on him was because he was so terrible and he wasn’t nice to her. Fairy tales harm women because women are mainly the villains.
Jane: The interesting thing about Beauty and the Beast is that there are many versions of the story. Almost every culture has a version of this story. I went around the world, and almost every culture has some version of this story, and the similarities are amazing. In some versions, he’s a good man cursed by an evil witch. In some versions, he’s not bad, but he’s a selfish, typical spoiled young man from a wealthy family. And then he’s turned into the evil, violent, abusive man.
Anne: And that’s the other thing. So in the Disney version, she needs help, and he doesn’t help her. He doesn’t know she’s an evil witch when he doesn’t help her. He just doesn’t help her. And then she’s like, ah, you turn into the beast. But then it’s still her fault that he’s so angry and bitter.
Jane: Because it’s always a woman’s fault when a man is angry and bitter. And the number of women I’ve talked to tell me their stories about their abusive partners. And they will so often tell me, it’s not his fault, like his mother was awful to him or his last wife did all these terrible things to him.
Always A Woman’s Fault
Jane: Now he can’t trust a woman except for me, you know? And she’s got to prove to him that she’s not like other girls. Like that’s such a…
Anne: …bad thing, right? Like that she’s not like other girls, that she has a voice and expects not to be exploited.
Jane: Or she’s not like the woman who turned him into this because she’s a good woman. She’s going to be nice to him. She’s going to love him better. Unlike the evil woman that turned him into this bitter, angry, misogynistic mess. So that trope is woven through so many of these stories. Fairytales harm women by using them to demean and blame women.
And while I’ve written the Disney princess stories and only the first five. When you start looking at it, all those romance movies, rom coms, books going back hundreds and hundreds of years to going forward to tomorrow. Whatever romance book, movie or TV show will be published tomorrow. These tropes are woven into it and they’re sanitized a lot now, so that they’re not so immediately recognizable and you have to scratch a bit deeper.
But underneath is always this same thing of a beautiful, unselfish woman, who will save a hopeless or bad man from himself by being beautiful and unselfish. And then they get their happily ever after.
The harmful goal of Happily Ever After
Jane: And I just want to also mention happily ever after as a goal. What is that? What is happily ever after actually look like? Because if I think about the things that make me happy. I’m planning to do a doctorate this year, where I’ll talk to men convicted of rape about their perceptions of women, sex, and sexual violence. Nothing about this is happy, but doing it, achieving it, and hopefully finding out something that we can use to try and reach boys and men.
Before they end up in prison for this kind of stuff. That will give me a sense of achievement. That almost nothing else could. So happily ever after, just sitting back, like some Stepford wife going, la, la, la, everything’s lovely. That’s not happiness. Happiness is so much more than that. Fairy tales have harmed women by giving them false expectations about happiness.
And women have so much more that they can do and achieve. Sometimes that can come from having a beautiful home and happy children. And that can be a thing that gives you pride and happiness. And there’s nothing wrong with that at all.
Anne: I was gonna say, of course it can. Of course, having a beautiful home and having your family around you can bring you peace and happiness, but that’s not abuse.
Jane: No, absolutely not. Because you’re doing that for yourself. When you’re doing it to serve somebody else because you’re scared of what they’ll do, if you don’t do it properly. Because you need to keep trying, keep trying, to make them happy, that’s not something you’re doing to make yourself happy. That’s something that you’re doing, because somebody is controlling you and you believe that you have to it.
The Importance Of Self-Worth
Jane: Choosing to do that because it genuinely brings you pride and joy and a feeling of fulfillment and achievement. And in fact, I would say, if you can find that thing that gives you that sense of self worth, pride, and achievement, whatever it is, then that’s a sign that you are actually living your best life. But happily ever after is not that. Happily ever after is not just nothing ever goes wrong, and I never have to work hard, and I never have to do anything.
And everything’s going to be fine forever, because that’s not happiness. That’s a belly haze, you know, that’s not being happy. I think a lot of that comes from this idea that we’re trained from babyhood, that it’s wrong to think about what you want. Fairy tales have harmed women and reinforced that notion. Little boys and men, you know, we do a lot of awful things to little boys and men in the name of gender roles.
But one thing we tell them is to think about what they want and go after it. But we tell little girls and women that doing that makes them selfish, which is bad. It’s often hard for women to think about, well, what do I want? What makes me feel happier with myself and my place in the world?
Because it’s not something that we’re trained to think about. So we have to unlearn an enormous amount of things to learn about ourselves. And I don’t think anyone should discount how difficult that can be, how much work it can take, and how much you have to overcome.
The Struggle For Financial Independence
Jane: I was at a conference the other day talking about this book, and I had to remind myself at the end of the conference to ask people to buy it. Because for a woman to stand up in front of a couple of hundred people and say, buy my book. Because the work I have put into it is worth you giving me money for, and you’re a writer. That’s what you’re there for. They’re asking you to talk about the book. Of course, they want to buy it. Tell them to buy it, because that’s natural.
And it doesn’t come naturally to me, and I have to work at it. I have to point out that I am deliberately selfish in asking you to do this, because I’m choosing not to be a fairytale princess. Because fairy tales have harmed women. I am choosing to be active and ambitious in my own life and to ask for the things that will help me get financial security. In doing that, I want to reflect that back to you. And say, how does it make you feel?
When people came up to me afterwards going, yeah, it made me feel a bit uncomfortable. And then we have that wire, and I totally get that. And I totally get how hard it can be to overcome those lessons. But I think it’s part of the work we have to do, of disassembling those structures that keep us locked into this idea. That we exist only to serve others because we don’t.
Fairy Tales Have Harmed Women: Supporting Our Families
Anne: At the Betrayal Trauma Recovery team, we have coaches who work hard. It’s their full time job. They pay their house payment with it. I am a single mom of three children, get zero child support, alimony, zero anything. And I don’t get half the medical anything. I 100% financially support my kids. And sometimes we get messages that say, you guys are awful because you’re asking women to pay for your services.
And I’m like, what would pay for my house payment? To be of service to everyone, I would also have to have someone take care of me. And I wouldn’t be independent. Like, just think that through a little bit, follow that to its most logical conclusion, and maybe they feel that way because they also don’t have the financial resources to get the help they need. Because maybe their emotionally or psychologically abusive spouse is blocking their finances, and they want help and can’t get it.
I realized that it’s deeper than just being frustrated that I cannot work for free. It’s also a sign that women are not independent and have their own resources to use as they see fit. Fairy tales have harmed women because they encourage dependence upon men. Handsome princes rescue and take care of princesses. So I can also totally understand the situation they’re in. And when it comes to abuse, the financial abuse piece, the spiritual abuse piece, they are overwhelming.
When you have been taught that it is your role in life to serve a man and not have anything independent from him. It’s overwhelming when you start thinking about how do I get to emotional and psychological safety, because that’s a whole new world that so many victims of abuse have never thought about before.
We Need To Earn Money
Jane: It’s frightening, because it’s changing your worldview of my role is to serve unrewarded. That’s such a big thing to do. I completely understand why it’s overwhelming. I get that a lot too, because I do a lot of speaking work and I’ll get people saying, what do you mean you want to get paid? I’m like, well, I like to eat and turn the lights on. That helps me keep doing this work.
But like you, I understand it, but I also keep thinking, who says that to men who offer services? Who would expect a father who’s solely financially responsible for his children and his house to do this kind of work unpaid?
Anne: Full time, eight hours a day, yep. Fairy tales have harmed women. We need to respect ourselves and feel good about getting paid what we are worth.
Jane: Nobody’s saying that. Firstly, he’d be lauded as an absolute hero just for being a single father. The bar is so low for men sometimes, I swear, they put it in hell and they still can’t meet it. But for a man to say. This service I provide, whether it’s doing what you do, doing what I do, doing anything, the service I provide is worthwhile. I work really, really hard at doing it.
And it is right for me to ask you to contribute to my ability to continue doing this service. Now, like you, I also understand that there are many women, because of the stuff we do, who don’t have that money. And where I can, I try to work with that as much as possible. But at the same time, for me to do it free would mean I would be homeless and not be able to provide those services anymore.
Physical Safety Beyond Violence
Jane: And also be giving into these myths that I am fighting so hard to change, which is that women should not want things, women should not want financial security independent of a man. Women should not want a beautiful house, but just a reasonable house to live in that’s theirs. Fairy tales harm women by having dependence on men as an ideal.
Anne: Right that men and husbands say that your the problem no matter what. I talk about this in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. I talk about physical safety, and they immediately think, am I being punched in the face? And I want to say, no, no, no. Your physical safety is, do you feel safe because you know that you have shelter. You know, you have a roof over your head. That’s physical safety. Do you know that you can pay for food or obtain food? That’s physical safety.
So if you are stressed out for good reason, because you’re like, I don’t know if I can file for divorce. Or, I don’t know if I can separate, because I cannot afford an apartment. Or how am I going to pay for food or childcare when I need to care for these young kids. And it’s going to be more expensive for me to pay for childcare than the money I can make. If that’s the case, and I ask you, do you feel physically safe? The answer should be like, no, his actions are threatening my physical safety.
Because I’m worried about where I’m going to live, about food, and clothing. I’m worried about the basic necessities. That is a severe physical threat that women don’t recognize as that, because they think he’s never punched me in the face.
Fairy Tales Have Harmed Women: The Crisis of Homelessness vs. Violence
Jane: The start of that is that myth that you’re in a relationship headed towards marriage. Fairy tales harm women by showing that they can rely on men to rescue them. Then for women, your job becomes service to him, rather than the relationship is in service to both of you. And if you’re heading towards that position of not being safe, and I’ve been in that position where, Uh, where are we going to live? How are we going to eat? It’s terrifying.
So I understand why some women are afraid of that choice. We know that women choose between a crisis of violence or a crisis of homelessness, and feel like those are their only two options. I know how hard it is to dig yourself out of that hole, but I also know it can be done. It’s not easy, but it’s possible. And it requires work and faith in yourself that is so hard to hold onto after you’ve been in an abusive relationship.
While overcoming this belief that they can never do it, and they try anyway, and that most of them succeed. Not all of them, I know, and that breaks my heart, but so many of them do. It astounds me that so many women do it. It’s astounding to watch how strong and capable women are, and so often those women would never believe they are those things.
One of the things I take from this work is how much strength those women have, who’ve survived those abusive relationships. And make that choice to leave, thinking it’s going to be awful. It is for a while. And then they come out the other side, because they have that strength to rebuild their lives.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop
Jane: And there is nothing they can’t do. Nothing as strong as those women who have rebuilt themselves. I wish I could find a way to encapsulate that and show that to the women who don’t think they can, because so many of those women I’ve seen do it started thinking they couldn’t. And then discover they could.
Anne: Yeah, it’s incredible. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop focuses on how to think a little differently about the situation to make progress toward that, toward living free and feeling peace. Because it’s not just getting out of a psychologically or emotionally abusive relationship that we focus on here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. But it’s also post divorce, where they deal with emotional and psychological abuse due to co parenting.
Every domestic violence shelter will be like, Oh, divorce is the answer. And I’m like, it might be one step on your journey to safety. But for those who were severely emotionally and psychologically abused post divorce, for me it was eight years. Of post divorce abuse.
Knowing how to live free from this is important. So check out The Living Free Workshop. And to learn more about Jane’s book, Fairytale Princesses Will Kill Your Children. Go to janegilmore.com. You can also find it on Amazon. Jane, I love talking with you about how fairy tales have harmed women. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast again.
Jane: Oh, thank you. It was so nice to be here. I love talking with you too. I always enjoy these conversations. Thank you so much for inviting me.
This is How Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body – Joyce’s Story
May 30, 2023
Emotional abuse affects your body in a variety of ways. Many women in The BTR.ORG Community have experienced devastating emotional, physical, and mental symptoms. Here’s Joyce’s story.
Anne: I have a special friend who came to my house today. She is in my basement recording with me. We’re gonna call her Joyce. She’s a member of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, and I know her in real life. The story takes a dramatic turn.
We’ll start with her story and then near the end we’ll talk about how all how emotional abuse affects your body and your health. When you met your husband, soon to be ex, Joyce how would you define his behavior?
Joyce: We met on Tinder and I had actually canceled our first date because I was getting very exhausted by dating.
But when I got home from my first date, I thought he was so nice because he told me that he had picked a smoothie place because it was public and it was short and there were cameras. He thought that would make women feel safe. In my mind, I thought, oh that is so considerate. This guy is looking out for women’s needs. Awesome.
Anne: Man
Joyce: Within a month, we were dating, and within three months, we were engaged.
Anne: I, too, had a very quick engagement. Ah.
Even First Time Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body
Anne: When did you start recognizing that some of his behaviors weren’t what you were looking for?
Joyce: You know, I struggle with ignoring my first instincts. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Even while we were dating, there were times where I was like, that’s a little odd. I am better at doubting myself than doubting other people. I remember he got really angry at a bill on one of our dates. He thought they had overcharged us and he apologized to them after. It was not something I was comfortable with and didn’t really know how to address.
If I’d known better or was more comfortable with accepting that something is a red flag, I would have made different choices. Even first time emotional abuse affects your body.
Anne: We’ve all been there. You just don’t know what you don’t know, right? Right. Yeah. You get married and when you start recognizing things are really kind of strange, what reasons do you give for this behavior?
Joyce: Yeah, it happened really fast.
Honeymoon Red Flags
Joyce: On our honeymoon, in fact, we went to Hawaii, his choice. At a restaurant, I ordered a ginger beer, which is a non alcoholic beverage, it reminded me of my childhood. My dad would get us ginger beer around Christmas, it was fun.
The drink cost six dollars, it infuriated him that I had spent that kind of money on something. He wasn’t yelling, but he was very stern in the restaurant. When we got into the car, he wouldn’t speak to me.
A tactic that he started using then and used throughout our marriage was to say, “Help me understand why you made that decision, Joyce. Why did you do that?” I said, “I don’t understand what the big deal is. I I don’t know when I’m coming to Hawaii again. It’s our honeymoon. I just thought it would be fun. Why you’re so upset about a drink.” He apologized.
I think that’s one of the few times he apologized for an overreaction. I know it’s triggering to say overreaction, but it is actually an overreaction. Oh, for him, yeah.
Joyce: Yes, for additional context, I paid for the meal. I was not putting an expense on him, I was paying for it. The next morning I was still feeling unsettled and anxious. He was still asleep. I went for a walk around the block and I thought, okay, this must be what marriage is like. It’s going to be fine. It was in fact, not fine.
Anne: It was not fine, but you didn’t know that. Right, you didn’t know that.
Marriage & Emotional Abuse Isolation Begins
Anne: Did you tell anyone about this back then?
Joyce: No. For context, this was his second marriage. He was married before, very briefly in his mid twenties. Other people potentially inferred he was the issue. He said he was very uncomfortable with us talking about things to other people.
He started putting restrictions on what I could and couldn’t say to people very early on. The restrictions increased. Anytime he caught me talking to someone, or if I said anything out of line, it would result in a serious argument.
Anne: Okay. An emotional abuse episode. But you didn’t know to call it that back then? No.
Joyce: Yeah.
Anne: What did you think about him? Did you think it was you? Did you think it was him? What was your thought process back then?
Joyce: I one hundred percent thought it was me. Absolutely, I thought it was me. I’d never been in a long term relationship. He seemed more well spoken than I, and he framed himself as more intelligent.
He’d been married before. Right, more experienced. I felt, I thought, oh, it must be me. I don’t know what I’m doing. He would frame my friends and family as weird or odd. I didn’t have good influences. I didn’t know how to appropriately, in his words, behave.
Anne: for the amount of time I’ve known you, you are always behaving appropriately. I can’t even imagine what he would be talking about.
Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body: Coercion
Anne: Did you know about any infidelity
Joyce: Yes, shortly before we got engaged he told me that he had a pornography addiction that had surfaced after his first marriage. He told me it was not a problem while he was in a relationship.
Only when he was not in a relationship did he have this problem. In other words, in my mind, if he’s getting his needs met, if you know what I mean, then it’s not a problem. I just responded with empathy and I said, I know it must be so difficult. Is there anything I can do to support you? He said, that’s it.
That’s all you need to do. I did go into the marriage knowing he had a pornography addiction.
Anne: Did he use that against you? Threaten, like, you know I have a addiction if I don’t get sex?
Joyce: It was definitely implied that if he was getting his needs met, then he would not have that issue.
The pressure definitely was on me and if I didn’t comply with what he wanted, then I was the instigator of his addiction at that point. He would use it as a tool to manipulate me in other ways. Like if he wanted privacy, he would accuse me of spying on him, which I was absolutely not doing. I would just come in to see him and say, Hey, how are you doing?
Psychological Abuse Affects Your Body
He would be in his office. He said, I don’t like it when you do that. If I’m in here, you have to knock. If I don’t give you permission to come in, don’t come in. Otherwise I feel like you’re spying on me, which out of context is insane. In the marriage, it just made me feel like, oh my gosh, I’m the worst wife ever. That he thinks I would spy on him.
Anne: He knows by now that all wives observe their husbands. So, he had something going on that he didn’t want you to know about. This is so common when dealing with an addict husband.
Joyce: I do believe that now. I have no proof of that. I never spied on him. Never opened his phone, his computer, anything like that. I have no evidence of that, but his behavior would suggest that, yeah.
Anne: Well, and he told you that.
Joyce: Right. Misplaced trust as it turns out, but that’s how I thought about it.
Anne: Had you done any research about addiction? Did you know how it affected people or how they acted when they were using it
Joyce: All of my information on that was just anecdotal stuff you just pick up along the way. People talk about it. in passing and whatever he told me, which was not much.
Anne: Okay, not like, oh, I’m going to research a ton about this.
Joyce: This is why the accusation of spying was really jarring for me because I try so hard to give people emotional space and I didn’t even research pornography because I thought, well, he’s an adult. He can talk to me about it. We’ll go from there.
Exploiting Your Weakness
Anne: Do you think you’re naturally that way to give people space, or do you think some of it was him manipulating you to back off?
Joyce: I think there was an element of that, I had some abuse from a caretaker when I was growing up, that made it easier for him to feed into. It’s like your insecurities. Yes. I had insecurities.
Anne: He was exploiting your weaknesses. Instead of loving you and supporting you in your weaknesses.
Joyce: Interestingly, when I opened up to him about the abuse, said that I must be exaggerating. That didn’t happen. He, in fact, did not believe me, which is very odd.
Anne: Yeah. Or not so odd since he was an abuser.
Joyce: Right. And that actually makes more sense now. I thought, why don’t you believe me? Why would anyone tell you that?
Anne: What do you do to try to solve quote unquote, your problem that’s really his problem?
The Pain Of Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body
Joyce: I went to therapy. So much therapy, including couples therapy. None of which helped, because it wasn’t me. I spent years, I went through three therapists, personal therapists, in our marriage. I was convinced it must be me. The first one was not super helpful. She just told me to journal, and never gave me any other insights. The second one I called to cancel a session.
I was distraught after an abuse episode with my husband. I couldn’t deal with it. My husband called me to try to, “work it out.” My dad was listening at the door. I think he started to get an idea that things were abnormal. They weren’t marriage growing pains or things like that. He talked to me after and said, he’s putting everything back on you. Is that normal?
I made excuses and said, no, no he’s right. I’m overreacting. I went back the next day. I found a different therapist, because he wasn’t comfortable with me going to that one anymore.
Anne: Okay. I think it’s really telling of the state of therapy that so many therapists have a really difficult time helping people identify abuse. That the best marriage counseling don’t have a way to identify it.
They don’t want to make the wrong decision, like, maybe this person is the abuser, so I don’t want to say they’re being abused. Even if that person is the abuser. Wouldn’t getting their victim away be helpful?
Joyce: Yes, I honestly think it probably stems from people being afraid of lawsuits or losing their license and ability to practice. One hundred percent because their license is a marriage and family therapy license. They could lose their license or be sued. They can’t really help people identify abuse, which is awful.
Undiagnosed Abuse Affects Your Body
Anne: People can go to therapy for years and years and years and not know they’re a victim of abuse. That none of it is their fault and that they don’t even need to be in therapy.
Joyce: That’s probably why there’s such rampant abuse, and such negativity toward women. Right.
Anne: If he did go to a therapist, it wouldn’t help him though.
Joyce: My soon to be ex, he went to therapy, probably just to tick off the box. He went to two sessions, said he didn’t like the person, so he was not going to look anymore.
Anne: Right. Well, even if he had found one, I mean, mine went to therapy consistently for seven years and the therapist loved him. They thought he was awesome because all he did in the session was convince them that I was crazy.
He didn’t get any help for himself. I became more and more of the enemy, because what he was telling the therapist wasn’t true. You can’t get help if you’re not willing to tell the truth. He loved going to therapy and lying to the therapist and having the therapist tell him what an awesome guy he was.
Joyce: Makes me so angry.
Anne: It’s ok to be mad at your husband or people who give you bad advice. Thank you. Sometimes you gotta hear it. You heard it from her. She knows me in real life and apparently in real life, I also am not crazy.
Joyce: Very sane.
Realization That He Was The Problem
Anne: When did you realize that your efforts to fix yourself, they’re not helping your marriage and they’re not helping you?
Joyce: Horrifyingly, I only really realized that within the past six months. I felt like a more capable person than I had been in a long time emotionally. The fog was lifting. I was thinking, wait a minute, this is not me. I’ve done all this work. I’ve been doing this work for years. Things started to click that no, it isn’t me. We don’t have children. We have dogs. I was taking one of our dogs to the vet and the words came into my head.
“You can’t rely on him.” That is the first time I realized that I cannot rely on this person for anything. To be emotionally available, to treat me with any degree of kindness, to be an equal partner in a marriage. There was no equality in our marriage ever. That was a really stark realization. It was at that point that I started thinking, okay, so what are my next steps? I didn’t know what to do. I talked to my family.
Yeah, once you realize there’s a problem. The next problem is figuring out what to do.
Finding Help For Emotional Abuse
Anne: That is where BTR comes in. First, educating women about identifying emotional abuse, psychological abuse or sexual coercion. Then helping women know what to do. If you’re wondering, what do I do? The Living Free Workshop is a great place to start. If you have kids, it is really important to know how to communicate with them.
Most women who come on the podcast have listened to the podcast and they meet me through BTR. We met in an unusual way. We have a new member in our congregation, my junior high choir teacher. He asked me where my husband was. I said, I’m a single mom. He found out that I do abuse stuff. He said, my daughter is in this situation and maybe you can help her. I said, have her call me.
Joyce: This choir teacher is my dad. Right, so I did not know her at the time.
https://youtu.be/twBoXh_OABA
My dad had been concerned for some time, but it was, like I said, only recently that I had been having conversations with him about it. My spouse had isolated me from family and friends. They were not allowed to come to the house. There was limited time that I could spend with them. If left for more than a half an hour, he would start calling and checking in, seeing when I was going to come home.
Physical Intimidation Affects Your Body
Joyce: My soon to be ex had gotten angry and told me that I was holding him back in life. That I was like the person who abused me. I said, why would you say that to anyone who has been abused? That is not okay. I said, if that is how you feel, we should not be married. He got furious. He broke a TV tray.
Anne: Physical abuse in the form of physical intimidation, people aren’t educated about that. They don’t know that it is physical abuse.
Joyce: Yeah
Anne: Right
Joyce: It was scary, right next to one of our dogs. I said, stop, you’re scaring everybody. Please stop. He turned it on me and said, this is your fault. You’re the one making everyone upset. This goes on for a couple of hours. My spouse had been showing me a video of one of our dogs on his phone.
We were sitting in bed. I leaned over, looking at this video, and then some time went by, a few seconds, maybe a minute. I felt him grab my face and shove me back. Hard, I had a shooting pain in my neck. I asked him why he did that. He said, oh, you were in my personal space, he was very calm. He wasn’t angry. This one frightened me because he wasn’t angry.
Anne: Would you say overall, just for our listeners, 99 percent of the abuse was emotional and psychological, and sexual coercion, right?.
Joyce: Yes, he crossed a major line. I don’t know if there was some residual anger. I really don’t know. His physical attack truly affects your body.
Anne: Knowing a little bit of the story, I think he’s sensing that he’s losing control. He’s trying to assert control again.
Physical Abuse Affects Your Body and your mind
Joyce: Yeah. I knew that was a turn in our marriage for the worse. The escalation in behavior that I felt was inherently violent. There was a violent undertone. Not to mention this, this was physical violence now. I have an injury, I told him, Hey, that really hurt. I have some pain. Why did you do that? Can you please promise me never to do that again? He said, I’m sorry, your neck is hurting.
That’s the only apology, by the way, I ever got.
He said that I need to stop talking that way, because if someone heard me, they’d accuse him of doing something wrong. They would take away his guns. The minute he brought the guns up, there was a shift in the atmosphere. I thought, okay, this is a problem. I don’t know what to do, if that is where his head is at. Not that he just did something uncalled for and physically injured someone he says he cares about.
He’s worried about losing access to firearms. That’s a problem. I’m trying over the next couple of weeks to sneak things out of the house so that I can leave. As I mentioned, I don’t really have much time or space to do that where I’m not being observed. It’s not going well. I had been meeting my dad for lunch when I was at work. I was starting to tell him things are very bad. Then my dad gives me your number and I call you.
Teaching Safety Principles To Women
Anne: We deal with emotional and psychological abuse here at BTR, and safety is up to the woman who’s going through it, our only goal is safety. Divorce isn’t going to solve the problem in so many cases. If you get divorced and you share children, the abuse will continue after divorce. Finding safety is different for everybody.
All this to say, I teach women, safety principles and how to be safe and what safety looks like, have them take The Living Free Workshop, consider their options, take small steps to discover what’s right for them. I knew she’d be calling me the next day, and I could not sleep, I was thinking about all the things her dad had said, over and over. I felt like it was the spirit telling me, she cannot go back home.
She can only be at work once a month, sometimes, or maybe once a week. If she doesn’t get out tomorrow, she’s going to die. Like she’s in serious danger. Having a friend of mine have her son murdered, murder is an issue, like the Josh Powell story, he was never physically abusive that we know of until he murdered his wife. Then he murdered his children.
Michael Haight, I talked about him on the podcast earlier. Same thing with the dentist that I talked about. They’re not murderers until they become murderers. By that time you’re dead and they’re not.
Urgency And Alarm Bells
Anne: Alarm bells are going off in my brain. I’m not the kind of person who says, you have to get out right now. That’s not how I do my job. I’m thinking, this is weird. The panic bells are going off for me, even before I talked to her based on what her dad had said.
Joyce: Right. My spouse was being nice. I don’t know, sometimes you just feel like something is different. I felt like that and I couldn’t put my finger on it. To validate what you were feeling, I definitely was sensing something.
Someone was going to ask me, did he do anything? Did you say anything? No, but I’ve been married to him for several years. He was odd. When I went into the office around noon, I called you and you said, would you be able to leave work right now? I don’t really think I thought about it. I think I just said yes, let’s do this.
Anne: The things that she described check off all of the boxes on the lethality assessment. I was thinking it should be a no-brainer for her to get a protective order if we go to the domestic violence shelter, I remember you saying, what am I going to tell him? I said, you never have to talk to him again, ever.
You don’t have kids with him. You literally never have to talk to him again. Just leave work, come, leave all your stuff at home. We can figure that out later. We’ll get you a protective order and then you can go back with a police escort and get your stuff. I’ve been trained in the state that I live in, I know what I’m doing, I also know how hard it is.
Seeking Protection From Abuse Affects
Anne: It was still Shocking to me how bad the local services were. We do Individual Coaching Sessions and BTR Group Sessions every day and women get help in the form of support and validation. All our services are online. We help victims navigate local services since they’re usually so bad, and what they can do next. I have never had somebody in my car driving them around.
Joyce: I was pretty much in a state of shock the entire day. I was terrified. Absolutely terrified. I was afraid of what was going to happen when he found out. Just grabbing the lifeline, hoping that it was going to work out. The anxiety and fear really affects your body.
I let my work know that I had an emergency and needed to leave, I met you. We left my car somewhere, and drove to a resource center, which we struggled to get into.
Anne: They wouldn’t let us in.
Joyce: We got in, eventually someone came to the desk. They handed me some paperwork. I’m not really sure what the paperwork was.
Anne: It was to get services as a victim of domestic abuse. We walk into this domestic violence shelter, which also gives services. Not because she needs shelter, she can live with family, but because that’s the place you go when you need local services. There were no services. I said, “She needs a protective order right now. She’s checking all the lethality assessment boxes.”
They’re acting like, we don’t even know what that is, she needs a protective order! They said oh, thanks for the paperwork. You’ll hear back from us in a couple of days. Both of us look at each other.
Hospital Visit: How Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body
Anne: We know he’s coming after her and he’s tracking her. He has left the house. That’s one of the lethality assessment boxes to check that I’m talking about. I’m thinking we need a protective order now. This is going to become an incident. We need police protection now. She was saying, Oh, we’ll call you in a couple days. I was like, no, no, I can’t take her home.
At this moment, I am the domestic abuse expert, and Joyce, is like, out for the count. Emotionally, physically, she’s just like, what is happening? All of the stress and fear really affects your body. My husband’s coming after me, he’s got guns.
I made a decision to take her to the hospital. I know the ER has social workers, security and people that can help her. That she will be safe there for hours. Hopefully she can just sit in this ER and be safe and he won’t know where she is until things can get settled. Then at least we know she’s safe for a while.
Joyce: The hospital’s probably the best thing that could have happened, because I had not received any treatment for my neck for a couple of weeks because I didn’t dare. They were extremely kind. They asked a lot of good questions. It was probably the least stressful experience I’ve had with a doctor, which is bizarre. They didn’t pressure me for anything, hey just asked me questions and they said, this is what we’re going to do.
They got me in and scanned to make sure there weren’t any severe injuries. I told them what happened. The social worker came in. Eventually a couple of police officers came in as well. They were all really good, matter of fact and extremely patient.
Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body: Safety Concerns
Joyce: I was an absolute mess. Meanwhile, Anne was coordinating with my dad to make sure that he was safe. Obviously, I’m worried about my safety, I’m also worried about my family’s safety.
Anne: She has reconnected with friends. We’ve been hanging out now that she’s my neighbor. We’ve been going to the movies. She came to my daughter’s play last night. She’s amazing. At the time I met her, she had been isolated and in the fog. The nurse asked her who is this? While pointing to me. She cried and the nurse said is this your friend? Joyce just nodded.
Then, the nurse said, is she your best friend? Joyce said, yes! I thought, I am! I am her best friend right now, I am also her only friend right now. She’s been so isolated. The emotion of that moment and knowing that you didn’t have anyone else except for your family. I had to leave because my son had a band trip. I was a chaperone.
The bus was leaving. I called a friend, Leah Moses, who is such a dear friend of mine, can you get to the hospital? I can’t leave Joyce by herself. Thank goodness Leah could go. I left Joyce at the hospital. Before I went home, I drove past Joyce’s dad’s house. I’d just seem like a soccer mom driving by in a minivan. Guess who’s in the driveway. Two of our city police with her dad.
Police Intervention
Anne: She didn’t have a protective order, we couldn’t get one. Her husband is on speakerphone with our city police. This police officer says to her husband, you are not welcome in our city. If you come here, we will arrest you. Do not come. Her husband responded, oh, really? Can you tell me what’s going on? This doesn’t sound like Joyce. Maybe she’s having a mental health crisis.
I thought, he’s a full-on abuser. This is exactly what they sound like. This is what emotional and psychological abuse sounds like. He sounded nice and calm. Then he said stuff about your dad. I’ll call him Bob. Is Bob okay? Is his health okay? I don’t think he would be like this. He’s always welcomed me to his home before. What’s going on? I’m so confused.
Then the officer said, “You are not welcome here. You will be arrested. Do not come, and hung up.”
Immediately after, your husband texted your dad, and your dad pulled out his phone. There’s a text saying, “Hey, Bob, are you doing okay? What’s happened? I’m confused. Why are the police calling me?” I’m thinking, you know full well why they’re calling you. I was thinking block him, don’t talk to him. I said if he shows up, and the police are nodding their heads, do not talk to him. Don’t open the door.
The police were amazing. I was so grateful that they did that and your dad felt better. A protective order is just a piece of paper, but with it you can call on the police. The police telling your husband, “You’re not welcome here.” Is just as effective as a protective order.
Support & Gratitude
Joyce: Your friend was amazing, I just want to say thank you to her.
Anne: Yeah, she’s amazing.
Joyce: To come help someone out when you’ve been through that, I can’t even imagine. I was very lucky that day. I was at the hospital for several hours. Eventually they discharged me. I called my sister and she was able to come get me. The rest of the day, I was just a mess. I was scared. To some extent angry at myself, which I’m only saying because I think that is probably common.
I was angry that I couldn’t find a way to get out without a fuss, I felt so guilty for all of the people who had been put out by the situation. I felt like I should have been able to handle it. But the truth is, I couldn’t. If I could have left, I would have. I really did have no way of getting out. There were cameras all over our home. As you said, we knew he left because I got an alert telling me. I don’t think I could have gone out any other way. It had just affected my body too much.
Anne: He also would not have been surprised because you didn’t even know.
Joyce: No this was not the plan. I was starting to think oh, I need a plan, but I definitely didn’t have a plan. I now have a protective order. The Victim Advocate has been amazing. An officer went to my spouse’s house, asked him about the incident, and I think he still must have thought he didn’t do anything wrong.
Consequences & Emotional Abuse Help
He told them exactly the same thing I told them, and that’s an assault. He’s being charged with assault, and because of that, the courts put in place a protective order. Which has helped me relax a little bit. All the stress affects your body so much one day I’ll be able to fully relax. That day is not here yet, I’m just trying to take everything as it comes. I am so grateful to have met you. Thank you for being there.
Anne: Thank you. You didn’t put anybody out. I’m just grateful I was there to help you. The abuse had affected your body so much. I mean, that is serious stuff. To have the honor of helping you. Thank you. I think everyone felt that way. It was an honor to assist you in your time of need, you cannot do this alone.
For women listening who may be making steps toward emotional safety using emotional safety strategies, but intend to remain married. If you don’t have anyone, our BTR Group Sessions are awesome. Reaching out for help is also a way to really realize if it is abuse.
If you’re wondering, is this abuse? Is it not? Being educated about abuse does not create abuse out of thin air. It helps you realize whether or not the thing that’s happening is abuse. The abuser does not want you to find out that it’s not you, it’s him.
How Emotional Abuse Affected Joyce Physically
Anne: The title of this episode is How Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body. Can you talk about how abuse affects your body when you were going through it and you didn’t even know? Then about how abuse affects your body now during the recovery from these emotional injuries? I say emotional and psychological injuries because although her neck was injured, you had many emotional and psychological injuries as well.
Joyce: The neck injury I could not excuse or reconcile in any way, shape, or form. It had taken a turn into physical violence. I don’t think you will come back from that.
Anne: Right. This is seven years in, this isn’t like the first few months into the relationship.
Joyce: It took a turn that I was not expecting. Throughout the marriage, the psychological, emotional, and financial abuse was pretty severe. I’m gonna be dealing with that for a while. Longer than I’m dealing with the neck injury. My body was telling me something was wrong before I let myself accept that on a mental level.
Abuse affects your body in so many ways, my hair was coming out in chunks whenever I washed my hair, just like handfuls of hair would come out. I talked to my doctor about it. She said, Oh, it’s probably stress. Great. Awesome. I don’t know how to fix that. My nails, like my middle fingernails, split constantly no matter what I did.
I was exhausted, constantly exhausted. My spouse put a lot of shame and guilt on me for us not being at our optimum health. I am in worse physical shape now than when we got married. Part of that was he wouldn’t let me go to the gym. I had restrictions and didn’t have my normal avenues of being healthy.
Health and Recovery After Abuse Affects Your Body
Joyce: My body was just breaking down under the psychological, emotional, and financial abuse. I’ve got a heart arrhythmia which is getting better. My dog, he was my dog before we got married, is now with me. He was diagnosed with a heart murmur a couple years ago, and they don’t really know what caused it. My dog had a vet checkup about a week ago, it’s gone. He doesn’t have it anymore.
He was subjected to emotional abuse as well. I’m just really grateful he’s out of there. Any living being in that household was suffering. They don’t have any other explanation for why his murmur is gone, but it’s gone. Abuse effects your body as an animal as well. They said he’s in good health. I wasn’t paying attention to my health. Sometimes you have to just stop and listen to your body, if it is telling you something is wrong, maybe that is your sign.
Anne: How are your nails now?
Joyce: They’re short, but there’s no crack. Nothing.
Anne: It’s not cracked and you’re not bald.
Joyce: And I’m not bald.
Anne: Have you had your hair fall out lately?
Joyce: No.
Anne: And you’re not as tired?
Joyce: No, I’m not as tired. I’ve lost 15 pounds and my diet is not amazing right now. I have more energy. I am taking my dog on a walk. He’s getting more exercise. I’m getting outside with him. He’s healthier. I’m healthier. The major change in my life is being out of that environment. If my health wasn’t a good enough indicator, his definitely is.
Ongoing Support and Gratitude
Anne: I talk to your dad. He went to my daughter’s play last night. He’s helped my daughter with her singing because he’s a choir teacher.
Joyce: He loves doing that. He says my vibe has improved, so much better. The fact that they actually see me, they’ve said, is a huge improvement. People are saying, you look really good. I say, yeah, thanks. I’m not getting torn down every minute of every day.
Anne: Right. When I picked you up at your parents house to go to the domestic violence shelter to try and get the protective order, I think you apologized. I said, I know you’ve been abused. I know that I should not tell you what to do. Apologizing already! You’re not doing anything wrong! She was in this cave of lies.
Joyce: It was bad. He forced me to apologize. I really couldn’t win on any level. As an example, a few weeks ago, I had a breakdown. I realized at 2 a.m. I hadn’t flushed the toilet, I was just petrified for a few minutes. Then I realized, oh wait a minute, I’m not going to get reamed about this. If I was still with my spouse, he would yell at me for being careless and unhygienic.
Then he would remind me every time I went to the bathroom for at least a week to make sure I flushed it. He would occasionally just happen to be in the bathroom to make sure that I was doing it. Just a glimmer of why I was so overly apologetic for what I felt was a problem to other people. He wouldn’t let me clean, and so I felt like being in that house with him affected my body so much.
Overcoming Psychological Trauma
Anne: For me, for a year after I was fighting with my ex in my own head. Like I was talking to him. I was having arguments with him in my head, I had to be like, Oh, he’s not here anymore. I don’t have to have an argument with him anymore. It’s this period of time where they haunt you, even though they’re not around. Do you feel like that’s been happening at all?
Joyce: Oh, yeah. It’s not arguments, in my case. It’s, why did you do that? Can’t believe you did that, you know better. Incessant negativity about anything. I find myself trying to preemptively prepare for an argument if traffic is bad and I’m going to be late. I get physically tense and panicky. Abuse affects your body in reliving it as well. I’m trying to remind myself more, you don’t have to do that.
It’s going to be a slow process. I just never want to talk to him or see him again, I really don’t. I hope that this doesn’t happen again. I’m technically round two for him.
Anne: Because that’s probably what happened in his first marriage. By the way, I messaged his first wife on Facebook, I gave her my phone number?
Joyce: I don’t know, but I haven’t heard from her. If she doesn’t want to talk about it, that’s no problem.
Anne: We need to get her on the podcast. .
Joyce: I don’t believe he was honest with me about what happened in that marriage. Things he said about her were not true.
Gratitude & Moving Forward Out of Abuse
Joyce: I just want to say thank you for all of the work that you’re doing.
When we first met, you told me that you were grateful for your abuser because BTR wouldn’t have happened without him. I told you that was BS. I do not have the intelligence, fortitude or skill to go out and create an organization that helps women. You do podcasts; you do all of this writing. That is you. It’s not him that comes from you. You are a wonderful, special person who is making a huge difference in the world.
I’m not overstating things when I say that. I think you might have saved my life and I’m so grateful. To people who are listening to this, there’s never a good time. You might feel totally alone and you might be horribly isolated. I speak from experience, but there are people who can help you, don’t give up.
Anne: They will become your best friends.
Joyce: Two steps forward, one step back is still one step forward.
Anne: She now lives in my neighborhood, I’m going to have her back on in six months or a year. To see how things are going. Right now, I’m helping her through the divorce process. I can’t personally help everyone that listens to the podcast for obvious reasons. If you need support, The BTR Coaches are here for you.
Our coaches are online ready to help you in daily group sessions and individual sessions. Joyce, you’re brave, you are strong, you’re incredible, you’re beautiful, you’re an amazing person!
Joyce: Oh, thank you.
Teaching Children About Healthy Relationships – The Best Resource
May 23, 2023
In a world that has normalized explicit media and romanticizes unhealthy relationships, parents need to teach children about healthy relationships. Luckily, there are resources to help parents teach children about healthy relationships in a way that works for everyone.
One of the first steps to teaching healthy relationships is to teaching about emotional abuse. If they understand emotional abuse, chances are they’ll avoid unhealthy relationships. To learn more about the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
3 Ways Parents Can Teach About Healthy Relationships
When you teach children about healthy relationships, it’s important to ensure that the resources you use help your kids:
Initiating open & honest conversations to teach children about healthy relationships. Conversations relating to various aspects of body image, the potential influence of media, and relationships.
Teaching media literacy. As children and teens begin to understand the intents and impacts of the media, they may be better equipped to seek out and develop healthy relationships and a healthy understanding of intimacy.
Emphasizing the importance of healthy relationships. In the BTR community, we understand how difficult it can be to teach children about healthy relationships when emotional & psychological abuse have been present in your home. However, Educate and Empower Kids has many resources available to help parents teach these concepts. Not only do they have incredible resources for children, but also for parents.
Transcript: Teaching Children About Healthy Relationships
Anne: I have Dina Alexander on today’s episode. She’s the founder and CEO of Educate and Empower Kids. That’s educateempowerkids. org. It’s an organization determined to strengthen families by teaching healthy intimate education. Including education about the dangers of exploitative media. She’s the creator of How to Talk to Your Kids About Pornography and The 30 Days of Sex Talks. She received a master’s degree in recreational therapy from the University of Utah and her bachelor’s from Brigham Young University.
She tries to be a great mom and loves spending time with her family. We’re talking about how to teach children about healthy relationships. Welcome, Dina.
Dina: Thank you. It’s great to be here.
Anne: So Dina and I have known each other for a long time. We’re personal friends. We know each other in real life. And over the years, she has sent me all the books that Educate Empower Kids has produced. And my children love them. My daughter always pulls them out. I think she likes nonfiction better than fiction.
Dina: She wants to figure out life, not just fantasy, right?
Anne: My kids like them so much that I’m kind of sick of them. Isn’t that good?
Dina: Yes, because we all have that as moms. You get this book, you love it. And then after the 10th time, you’re like, Oh my gosh.
Anne: That’s how good they are. I’m like, do we have to read this body image book every night for four months, can we just read Little Red Riding Hood or something? And she’s like, no, we need to learn about positive body image. She’s seven years old.
The Popularity of Educate Empower Kids’ Books
Dina: She’ll never regret it though. As an adult, she can say to her friends that still all hate their bodies. Wait, didn’t your mom talk to you about this? And then be sad for her friends, whose moms did not teach them to care for their bodies and love them as they should.
Anne: So they’re that good. They’re that good that even when I’m sick of them, my kids still want to read them. So that I think is like the biggest endorsement there is.
Dina: That’s hilarious. I love it, love it.
Anne: So, Educate Empower Kids just came out with a new edition of 30 Days of Talks. It has the same topics, but it’s more in depth. Can you talk about the feedback you received between the first and second edition, and why you decided a second edition was important?
Dina: We did a couple of updates over the years, just fixing some language. We find that these topics still intimidate parents. So helping them understand that they are the best source of information, right? None of us have to be experts, but that you as the parent love your kids more than anybody else. And so part of it is helping parents realize you can have these conversations. Also just giving a little more background, each layout has more information. That doesn’t mean you have to cover every piece.
You’re going to see some of it, like where you’re going to go, okay, I’ve covered a couple of those. Oh, but there are five more pieces that I can add if I want to prepare and empower my child with knowledge.
Challenges Parents Face in Discussing Intimacy
Anne: My situation is a little different, because I do this for a living, right? So we’re talking about it all the time at my house. So my kids are familiar with it. We can talk about masturbation, no problem. They ask me questions. Things are very open around here. What’s a typical parent like when it comes to how do they talk to their kids about intercourse? How to teach children about healthy relationships?
Dina: I would say you’re not typical, but parents are getting there, to teach children about healthy relationships. When we first started this, people were just terrified. And I thought it was like a Christian problem, because I’m a Christian and it’s not it. My atheist friends, agnostic friends, Muslim friends, Jewish friends, everybody is scared to talk about some aspect. So that was the first eye opener for us in creating these. We have come a long way.
You know, we started writing these books about 10 years ago. They came out in 2015, and even in that short amount of time, parents are more open to understanding. So many messages bombard my kids. We have made progress, but I would say many parents want to leave this topic to dad and just this topic for mom. Whereas I believe mom or dad can talk about any of these topics appropriately.
As you build that relationship, as you continue that connection with your kids. It doesn’t matter how intimidating a topic is or just because other parents aren’t talking about it. We can’t address these. It’s important that we be that first best source. With your background, your research, my background, my research.
Teach Children About Healthy Relationships: Barriers to Comfortable Conversations
Dina: Yes, we have spent a lot more time talking and sharing that knowledge with our kids, but that’s why it’s 30 days and 30 topics. These are big topics, but we’ve broken it down into tiny pieces, because I want every parent to know you can do this. You’ve got this. You don’t have to have training in education to cover things they’re learning about.
Anybody can do it with just a little study and caring for their child. You can do this. You can teach children about healthy relationships.
Anne: Talk about the reasons why talking about this is intimidating to parents. I guess one of them is, maybe if you don’t say anything, maybe they won’t notice. Like the classic, if you’re changing your clothes and don’t want someone to see you, you’re not gonna yell. Don’t look over here, don’t look, because the second you say, don’t look, what does everybody do? Everybody turns their head.
Some parents have that same idea that we don’t want to bring attention to this. We don’t want to be like, don’t look, and then everyone will look. So there’s that. And then there’s parents who feel uncomfortable talking about it, maybe because they don’t talk about it with their friends, spouses, or other people. So can you talk about the different barriers to feeling comfortable?
Dina: When you look at say the 30 topics we have. Or when you think about okay, what are the things I need to cover in these talks? All of us have something oh, yeah, I can talk about that.
The Impact of Past Experiences
Dina: But we also all have something that we’re like, oh, I don’t want to talk about that. Often it’s because many of us have had either some kind of abuse in our life, some kind of trauma, something deeply embarrassing. Or, our parents were uncomfortable. Maybe they told us nothing. Or maybe they were like a lot of parents who thought it was healthy to not just talk about intimacy, but to add a little dose of shame in there. Not to teach children about healthy relationships.
And so that’s common in that our parents’ generation thought that was part of a healthy talk, just a little bit of guilt. Let me just throw in a little bit of why would I buy the Popsicle? If you’re given the whole, ice cream, truck away for free kind of attitude. Some of us don’t want to put that on our kids, but we’re not sure how to avoid it. Because maybe that’s like in our brain. So people feel uncomfortable, whether it’s about one thing, whether it’s about five things.
Many parents are also afraid, like you said, they’re going to create an inappropriate curiosity. We have a lot of parents who think, Oh, if I start talking about this, they’re going to look it all up. Or heaven forbid, if my child knows how pleasurable and amazing it is, they’re going to go out and start having it tomorrow. And these are just kind of silly, right? Just because our daughters know they have a clitoris, it doesn’t mean they’re going to go out next week, find a boyfriend, and get laid.
Teaching the Positives
Dina: We have to think about, what do I want for my child? I know that I want my kids to have a great life when they’re adults. When they’re mentally and physically ready. And so I’m going to teach them the positives. I’m also going to teach them that curiosity is a good thing. That’s how we have survived as humans for thousands of years. We have to be curious now. I’m also going to teach children about healthy choices though, there is an appropriate way to use that curiosity. And that I have the answers for them.
I’m also going to let them know that there are many unhealthy messages that are incorrect and harmful online. That a lot of times their friends, however well meaning their friends, often have incorrect information. So I’m not just gonna say curiosity is good and leave it at that. I’m gonna explain the world around them. I want to give them a good picture of what the world is.
So that they can make good decisions. You know, so that’s knowing their bodies, understanding how their bodies work, understanding how the opposite gender works, et cetera. So they can make those good, healthy decisions. And teach children about healthy relationships.
Anne: Around here, we talk about how important it is to be educated, and how exploitative material is not education. It will harm your intimate life. And It will harm you. It is abusive to the people in it, and it’s abusive to you. And if you are a child and exposed to it, you are a victim of abuse. The material has abused you, and it’s going to be confusing.
Teach Children About Healthy Relationships: Respecting Women and Their Bodies
Anne: Because there might be something interesting about it. Your body might respond to it. That doesn’t mean you’re bad. But it also doesn’t mean the thing is good at the same time, right? Talking about how you don’t want to be aroused by violence against women. That’s just not going to be good for you. I mean, my kids, at least if someone offered them drugs, they are going to be like, are you kidding me? Never, I’m not doing drugs. That is such a bad idea. And they feel the same way about exploitative material.
Even if they see a hint of it, they’re like, that is not good. I’m not doing that. It’s so dangerous. My son’s 14 now. And then I have a son who’s 11 and interacting with girls, going swimming with their friends, and interacting with women who have bodies. There’s an amusement park right by our house, and it has a water park. And we go there frequently, because it’s literally like 10 minutes away from my house. And one time my oldest son said, mom, I feel uncomfortable here because women are wearing bikinis.
I said, why does that woman have a stomach? And he just kind of looked at me. And I said, well, what would happen if she didn’t have a stomach? Like her stomach is showing, but so is yours, right. So let’s talk about this. Why does she have a stomach? Is it for you to stare at? And then he was like, Oh, it’s so that she can eat. Just one way to teach children about healthy relationships.
Seeing Women As Human Beings
Anne: And I’m like, and why does she have legs? Are they for you? Or are they for her? So now. My son is like, Oh yeah, her legs are not for me. Her stomach’s not for me. She wasn’t created for me. She’s just doing her own thing, and I can respect her and give her space. And look her in the eyes and treat her like a person. This is a human being in front of me. And just because she wears a swimsuit at the water park does not invalidate her as a human being who I need to take seriously. Who I need to listen to and respect.
Stuff like that is so much more important than like, if you see a woman in a swimsuit, eye bounce and don’t look at her. I’m like, what? You’re teaching your kids not to treat other people with respect, which is the opposite of what we want to do. We need our sons to view women as people. To teach children about healthy relationships.
Dina: And it’s unrealistic anywhere to think that you’re going to have people covered up all the time. I love that you are teaching that with your son. Because yeah, I understand how you might become uncomfortable. You know, we’re human. We’re going to look at people’s bodies.
That’s natural and normal, they’re curious, that’s natural for many kids. So I want to validate. Yeah, I also love that you’re teaching. Because a person is dressed a certain way, whether they’re head to toe covered because of a religious reason. Or maybe because they’re at a water park, that they are still human, and that they’re still deserving of our concern and kindness.
Combating Pornography’s Effects
Dina: And that is such a great way to combat the effects of this stuff, because all of our kids will see it as much as we protect them, train them, listen and learn. They will be exposed as kids, as adults. And we want them to see humans as people, not as something for me to devour, not as something for me to get off on. It’s great education, and it’s not something to be done once. And so I love that you had that conversation with your son.
Anne: Well, I think about a women’s professional surfing competition, their uniform will be a swimsuit. If you don’t teach your kids, this is not a sexual situation. This woman is a competitive athlete. Women exercising, in competitions, on track teams, doing gymnastics, this is not a sexual situation. This is their uniform that they wear to do a sport. And that needs to be respected.
It’s crazy to me that there are men who are so conditioned to view women as objects. That they think of surfing or track, like, the hurdles. The hurdles is not sexual. If you use, you might start thinking there’s these things going on all over the place in your head. Instead of how to teach children about healthy relationships.
Dina: Our brains are conditioned that way for everybody who’s like, oh, this is not addictive, blah, blah, blah. It’s like, fine. If you don’t believe that, that’s one thing. But also to think that it does not change your brain and affect you.
Teach Children About Healthy Relationships with Concept Discussions
Dina: I always refer back to maybe 15 years ago. I was reading romance novels for a few months, and I could see that I was starting to objectify people. It did not take long for me to think of other people as available. When before, they had just been other people I walked past or worked out next to in my little community center gym. Again, these are great, great discussions to talk about how social media, television, videos, how they are just so powerful to our brains.
And that we are getting different messages about it all the time, but that we have to stop and think. And so that’s why this is such a great discussion to have over and over. Like, again, like you’re watching sports. Okay, maybe you pause it and talk about it like, isn’t that an amazing athlete? Look at her, do the high jump. Can you believe she can jump that high? Are we talking about how powerful, important, and special our bodies are?
But also talking about what might cause us, whether we’re walking past Victoria’s Secret at the mall. Or something else that affects us, because each of us is an individual. And helping our kids see that within themselves and identify what impacts them. And what is healthy, and what is not. What really angers me about this is that it forces on our kids this idea of what is hot and what is not.
The Media’s Manipulative Power
Dina: And I want my kids to form their own ideas and opinions about what is amazing about it. What is amazing about their body and their partner’s body. It is so important for us to teach children about healthy relationships.
Anne: It’s just gross, violent, vile, evil and exploitative.
Dina: It’s abusive, like you said. I love that you said that. To put that in that context for our kids, to help them see how manipulative it is. Because that right there is a great discussion. And maybe this is an easy talk for a parent who’s intimidated. Looking at different media and seeing how it manipulates us. Like a movie I liked, but I cannot watch again, is Interstellar. To me, it’s a fascinating movie, but to me it is so emotionally strong and in a sense manipulative. Because I get so involved in this movie and the sadness.
Media is so powerful, whether it’s music, an explosion, helping our kids see how this is meant to manipulate us. And at the end of the day, it’s about making money. It’s not about educating us, helping us feel good about ourselves, or helping us have great lives. It’s not. And It’s about manipulating us to make money. So it’s so important for our kids to see that, because this is their future.
My youngest right now is 17. And I remember when I started this a decade ago. Talking to my daughter and saying, hey, you know, it’s likely that the boys you go out with will have an issue with .
Preparing Kids for Real-World Challenges
Dina: She had four boyfriends in high school. Three of them were members of our church, the Latter-day Saints, and all three had an issue with exploitative content.
Anne: We had your daughter on the podcast talking about it. It was called teen dating and violence.
Dina: Oh, yes.
Anne: Yes, we’ll link to that in the show notes.
Dina: Yeah, that’s right. Thank you. Also having to now tell my sons, you know, when they started dating, of saying the days have changed. Because the industry is now targeting our daughters so much. That you will need to have those discussions when you’re dating. You’re going to have to have discussions about it and how that has affected you and your partner’s ideas of it. Whether you’ve seen it once, five times or 50 times, it will affect how you think about it. And how you think about your own body.
And you’ll need those discussions. Our sons need to be aware of that as well. It’s no longer just preparing our daughters.
Anne: All right Dina, so I’ve got 30 Days of Talks for Ages 12 Plus, the second edition in my hands. I’m going to randomly flip this resource to teach children about healthy relationships open and see what we’ve got. Does that sound like a plan?
Dina: Sounds great.
Anne: All right, here we go. So I’m closing my eyes and I am randomly, You will not believe this! 17. When I’m looking at this book, I can see a couple of things. There are some definitions, so it’s got the definition, how to start the conversation, then it has some links.
Teach children about Healthy Relationships with Questions for Your Child
Dina: In the Kindle version, these are all clickable links. If you buy the book on our website, you can choose to buy a PDF, a Kindle version or another kind of ebook that is good for any kind of tablet or laptop. Then those are linkable. If you buy the print version, you would have to type in like the name of the article. Because most of these are articles back to our website that have just a little more information on certain topics.
That’s why we have these additional resources. But like I said, if you buy it from the website as a PDF or as a Kindle. Those are all clickable links.
Anne: Awesome, so one of the sections in this to teach children about healthy relationships is questions for your child. So let’s just read one of them randomly. Okay. I’m going to close my eyes, and I’m just going to point to one of these questions. Here we go, ready? There, okay, How do your friends feel about exploitative material? That’s a good question. When you got feedback from parents, how did they feel about this questions section?
Dina: They loved it because we don’t just pick typical questions of, okay, what do you think it is? How do your friends feel about it? It’s typically not as threatening, because you’re not putting your child on the spot. You’re letting them think about, what are the attitudes around it? That’s been one of the most eye opening questions for me to ask my kids. Like a few years ago, I did a little thing on YouTube about how to identify predators, etc. And I had my middle son, who was 16, edit it.
Conversations start with a Simple question
Dina: And he goes, Mom, everything you said in there was right. I said, what do you mean? In my mind, I’m like, of course it’s right. It’s well researched. But he said, I had a kid in my class one time, show me pictures of nudes of his girlfriend. And I asked him, what are you doing with those? Like, how did you get those?
And he started telling my son how he got those. And he said, mom, it was everything you said in that predator conversation. It was grooming her, giving her compliments, making her feel special. So great conversation with my son about predators, but helping them see that these things are going on around them. And unfortunately, kids are learning predatory behavior at younger and younger ages. Thanks to this stuff, we need to teach children about healthy relationships.
Again, it is a simple question for any of these topics. When you go to the masturbation topic, when you go to the abusive relationships topic or the positive aspects section in this book. Asking them what they’re hearing in school, what their friends are talking about, it’s eye opening. My youngest, who’s 17, tells me about kids talking about their recent escapades. Their body count in the locker room, talking about, you know, on the fifth or sixth date, have moved to intense stuff..
These things are helpful to us as parents to understand what our kids are going through, what they are experiencing. And it also typically helps us realize, okay, I need to talk about these, because everyone else in a sense is talking to our kids about it in some way.
Teaching Our Children exploitative material Is Abusive
Dina: We want our kids to understand I’m a safe place. I’m not going to be angry or judgmental. If you’ve heard something or experienced something, I’m here to love you, give you information and help you be a strong human being.
Anne: And teaching them that these things are abusive. The reason why it’s wrong is because it’s abusive. It’s not wrong, because your pastor said it’s wrong. Or because it’s embarrassing. It’s wrong, because it’s abusive to another human being. And to engage in that type of predatory behavior, you are abusive. You’re harming someone. Because I think back in the day, it was like, if I use, it’s going to hurt me. Maybe I’ll go to hell, but at least I’m not hurting anybody else.
They didn’t realize, 10, 15 years ago, that anytime you do any of the behaviors surrounding it, deceit, hiding.
Dina: Using.
Anne: Any of those things, yeah, using manipulation, you are abusing someone. And that makes you an abuser. If you are experiencing abuse and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session. And you need to stop to be healthy. We need to teach children about healthy relationships vs abusive ones.
Dina: Yeah, and that we can do better than just because other people are doing it. Our neighbor, friends at school, friends at lunchtime, we don’t have to do that. Again, that there are simple ways that even our kids can stand up and say to their friends, that’s not cool. That’s bigger than you have any idea of, and I love that you said about teaching our kids that it’s abusive. Because that’s what I love about our books. We’ve made them open, so you can put your knowledge, experience, research, and values into each conversation.
Teach Children About Healthy Relationships: Great Conversations
Dina: You know, all of us have different things that we want to emphasize. We understand that we’ve been through or just get on this whole other level, and we want our kids to get it. And so that’s where these can be such powerful discussions. One of the best side effects when we prepared these books was how great the conversations were. When we teach children about healthy relationships.
We would set out to have a five minute conversation, maybe 10 minutes, and our kids would come back to us with such great questions that the discussion usually went 30, 40 minutes. Because they had such insightful questions, we took them to that place of safety and openness. And also, we asked these questions from the books that were not just typical. Okay, do you understand penis and vagina? It’s like, okay, great. They get that. There’s so much out there these days that we want them to understand that full amazing picture.
Anne: Or the full just blah picture. I mean, it’s great. I simultaneously tell my kids, for some people feels good and awesome. And for me, it was just not great. I didn’t like it, and maybe it’s because your dad is abusive. Most likely, yes, that was why. But I’ve never had it with someone who wasn’t abusive,
Dina: I love that they’re getting that picture. That they’re understanding all the pieces to it. That it’s not like television. That it’s not this amazing, screaming, simultaneous orgasm every time, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Anne: It’s never like that. For the people who are like, Oh, it is beautiful. I’m always like, is it? I don’t know. It’s fine.
It’s About Creating And Sharing
Anne: I’m not anti for sure. But I didn’t enjoy it at all because of my situation, right. And to let our sons know and our daughters know it can be, I hear from other people. I believe you, that it can be great. That’s awesome, shine on. Good for you. But if there’s abuse involved, it’s not going to be fun. It’s not going to be enjoyable. It’s going to be miserable for somebody. And also, the person who is the predator in that situation, it might feel good for that moment, but they’re not getting what it was meant to be about.
Dina: There’s no way for an abuser, or like a predator, to not go to that dark place.
Anne: It’s all about them. It’s about that hit. And it’s about their relationship to themselves, but it’s never about the the we.
Dina: That’s a perfect analogy, because it’s never about the partner, it’s always about themselves. My own orgasm, my own pleasure, and what I’m going to do to you. Not what we’re going to do together, and create and share as partners. So that’s exactly right. And again, helping our kids see the ins and outs. When we teach children about healthy relationships.
But I think also helping them understand the power they have within them to have good relationships. But also empowering them with this knowledge to understand that full picture. That yes, it can be amazing, but it can be horrific.
Anne: Or just boring.
Dina: It could be.
Anne: It can also be boring. I remember telling my ex, is it okay if I read …
Dina: Ha Ha Ha
Anne: … can I read during this? Because this is so boring.
Amazing Resource For Parents To Teach Children About Healthy Relationships
Dina: Oh man, I would have loved to have seen that face.
Anne: Yeah, I was like, what is going on? I just feel like you’re just like this hairy bear and…
Dina: Ha Ha Ha
Anne: …you’re literally like poking me with a stick on the inside. And it’s just not that fun. I’m sorry, would you want to get poked with a stick?
Dina: No.
Anne: No, anyway, he was always so offended when I was like, eh, this is just whatever. Why is this happening to me?
Dina: I love you, I love you. You are amazing,
Anne: And you wonder why.
Dina: Woo!
Anne: Yeah.
Dina: I love it.
Anne: You’re amazing, Dina. Thanks for coming on today. To learn more about all the amazing books that Educate Empower Kids has produced, go to educateempowerkids.org. Thank you so much for spending time with me today, Dina.
Dina: Thank you so much for having me. I loved it.
7 Bible Verses For Going Through A Divorce
May 16, 2023
Going through a divorce—especially one you didn’t want—is one of the hardest challenges a woman can face. Women experience heartbreak, uncertainty, and overwhelming emotions. It’s normal to feel lost. Here are some comforting Bible verses concerning divorce.
So if you’re suffering from your husband’s choices, that you may not be aware of. You’re also healing from years of emotional abuse. To see if you experienced any one of these 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
7 Bible Verses Concerning Divorce
1. Isaiah 54:4
“Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame. Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated. You will forget the shame of your youth and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.”
“For your Maker is your husband—the Lord Almighty is his name—the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth.”
While you may grieve the loss of your husband’s role in your life, know that God is your constant provider and protector. He will stand by you, offering comfort and strength as you rebuild.
3. Isaiah 54:7-8
“For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the Lord your Redeemer.
This verse acknowledges the depth of your pain, but also assures you that God will lead you to resources that can help you. To learn more about how Christ wants us to deal with dangerous people, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
4. Isaiah 54:10
“Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,” says the Lord, who has compassion on you.
Even when life feels like it’s crumbling, God’s love is steady and unshakable. In fact He promises peace that surpasses understanding, even in the midst of heartache.
5. Isaiah 54:14
“You will be established in righteousness; tyranny will be far from you; you will have nothing to fear. Terror will be far removed; it will not come near you.”
Also this verse offers reassurance that God is leading you to a place of safety and peace. He will protect you and strengthen you to walk forward with confidence.
6. Isaiah 54:17
“No weapon forged against you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and this is their vindication from me,” declares the Lord.
This verse reminds us that God is by your side. He is fighting for you and will bring justice in His perfect timing.
7. Isaiah 54:11-12
“Afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted, I will rebuild you with stones of turquoise, your foundations with lapis lazuli. I will make your battlements of rubies, your gates of sparkling jewels, and all your walls of precious stones.”
This verse speaks of restoration and beauty. God has a plan to rebuild your life, piece by piece, into something stronger and more beautiful than before.
The Bible A Reminder For You
These verses from Isaiah are here to encourage you in moments of doubt, grief, or despair. Lean into God’s promises and trust that His love and peace will carry you through. If you need more support or just someone who gets what you’re going through, remember there’s a whole community of women ready to walk beside you. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
God loves you. Although He’s still writing your story. Keep moving forward—you are stronger than you think!
Transcript: Bible Verses Concerning Divorce
Anne: If women go to the Bible and look in the index and try to find the word abuse, the likelihood of finding it is not high. So consider searching the Bible for other words that actually describe abuse. For example, widows. You are effectively a widow because of your husband’s choices. Even if you’re still married. Our Savior, Jesus Christ, loves widows. If you look up widow or widowhood in the index, you’ll find some Bible verses concerning divorce.
Wickedness is another one to look up. You’ll see lying, deceit, double minded as wicked behaviors. That’s describing abuse. Along those same lines, you’ll see that God continually talks about separating ourselves from wickedness. Modern context, that may be divorce. Or it may be separation. So instead of trying to find the exact word “divorce” when searching the scriptures, consider searching for traits your husband has. For example, is a liar?
A long time ago, I did an episode where I read verses from Isaiah. And so many of you messaged me and told me that you listened to it over and over, and it helped you feel peaceful. So here’s that recording from long ago.
Reading Isaiah 54:1-9
Anne: This is from Isaiah chapter 54. Listen to these Bible verses concerning divorce.”Fear not, for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood anymore.” I’m going to say that one more time.
“And shall not remember the reproach of thy widowhood anymore. For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: The God of the whole earth… For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.”
“For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment, but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer. For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.”
https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I
Isaiah 54:10-17
These are more Bible verses about what God says about abuse. “For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee. O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colors, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.”
“And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones. All thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.”
“Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper;”
“and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.”
Bible Verses Concerning Divorce: Personal Reflections On Isaiah
Anne: I love Isaiah. I’ve always loved Isaiah. This brought me so much peace this morning as I was studying these Bible verses concerning divorce. And then I took some time to talk about how I personally felt about God and how God had helped me. It kind of bore my testimony of my belief in God. If you don’t want to listen to that, just skip this episode. If that interests you, again, this is from that podcast episode so long ago.
Growing close to God is so important to me, because He’s the only person that can help me through this mess that I didn’t cause. I find comfort through the scriptures and through prayer. And I do want to say that there was a nine month period where I read my scriptures and prayed about what to do about my addict husband. I felt hopeless and despair. I felt awful, but I continued to pray and read the scriptures. The parts that stand out to me are isaiah 54:4. “And thou shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood anymore.”
Meaning, we may be widows, but all the trials that go along with that will be made right somehow. Which by the way, I have not seen in my own life yet. And I don’t even know what that means. But it does bring me peace that here a prophet talks specifically about that. And then in verse 5 He says “For thy maker is thine husband;” I think about all the things I wish I had, a husband to protect my family and to provide for us.
My Thoughts About Isaiah
Anne: And I realize that God can be that person for me during this time of my widowhood, that I can have a provider and a protector, and that if I turn to God and trust him, he has promised me those things.
Verse six, here is what God says about boundaries in marriage, “For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused,” This is a woman who is grieved and forsaken, and she’s been refused. Your husband harmed you through no fault of your own. You’ve been rejected. And then in verse seven, “For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies, I will gather thee.”
I think the small moment for me was nine months of praying and getting no answers, praying and getting no comfort. I remember going in my closet and just bawling because the pain was so excruciating. It was an awful time. And now I feel his peace. In verse 8 he says, “In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,”
Then verse 9, he talks about Noah and how the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth. I think this is an interesting verse to put here. The flood that Noah experienced is similar to the plague of abuse and pornography. It is everywhere, it touches everything. And then he tells us in 10, That “the mountains shall depart and the hills will be removed;”
This means huge, big things will happen in our lives. Huge changes. Serious, serious stuff that will harm us, perhaps. “but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,”
Promises of God’s Peace
Anne: God promises peace as I turn to him through Bible verses concerning dovorce. . Peace is one of the blessings of obeying the commandments. And then in verse 11, “O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted,” And that’s how I was for nine months, right after my ex husband’s arrest. It completely tossed and afflicted me. He says, “I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.” You’ve heard on the podcast people talk about a post betrayal transformation.
That’s what God wants for us. He would like us to rise like a phoenix out of the ashes. Into strong, powerful women who have more or less stared Satan down face to face, held strong and stood for truth and righteousness. And then in verse 12, he says, “I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.”
I have no idea what that means, but I assume that it’s wonderful things and blessings coming to us. Then 13, “And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord, and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear and from terror; it shall not come near thee.” Wonderful promises in these Bible verses concerning divorce.
14 is really important because we have all felt oppressed and we have felt the terror of seeing our families completely ripped apart. And then he promises, “Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me:”
Bible Verses Concerning Divorce: Isaiah Continued
Anne: Meaning your enemies, “whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.” I think this means people who harm other people eventually harm themselves.
So a Christian version of karma, perhaps, and then God ends with verse 17. “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.”
Sisters, I hope that as we create a healthy army of women who can set boundaries and stand for truth, we can walk through the Red Sea on dry ground together. We can release ourselves and our children from the bondage of abusive behaviors to truly establish peace in our own families. I don’t know how to free us from the bondage of our husband’s sins, if you will. I know that because of what Jesus says about abuse as we take one step at a time, toward peace, God will help us.
God loves you. Jesus Christ is my Savior. For those who aren’t religious, or those who aren’t Christian, I love you, and I care about you. And we are all in this together, regardless of what religion we are, regardless of where we are in the process. And as we hold hands together and support each other, we will walk through the sea of sadness and terror on dry ground and make it to the other side.
Living Free Strategies
Anne: Although I recorded that long before I ever discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Strategies, but I was praying to discover them. And I did. And I received delivery for my children and me because of those strategies. We have a peaceful life now. To learn more about the strategies I learned over the years through the process of interviewing so many women, and also all my studying and prayer, click on the link at the beginning of this paragraph.
The Best Resources To Stop Human Trafficking – Help Stop Exploitation
May 09, 2023
The global severity of human trafficking and exploitation is clear. Melea Stephens is on The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to share resources to stop human trafficking and exploitation. Take thisfree emotional abuse quiz to find out if you are emotionally abused.
Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we deeply appreciate the National Center on Sexual Exploitation (NCOSE) and the important work they do. Learn more about NCOSE here.
Help To Stop Human Trafficking And Exploitation Today
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Stands with NCOSE in Fighting Against Human Trafficking
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know how deeply personal and painful the realities of the trafficking industry can be. When a spouse secretly uses online explicit material, solicits an exploited person, or assaults or coerces a partner, the results are devastating. We are here for you. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.
Transcript: Resources To Stop Human Trafficking
Anne: I have Melea Stevens on today’s episode. She is on the board of the National Center for Exploitation, also known as NCOSE. They do amazing work on trafficking. So if you’re interested in involvement, NCOSE is the place for information about how to help. It is one of the best resources to stop human trafficking.
Melea’s involvement started with NCOSE, because she has seen young children addicted to online explicit material for over 23 years. She wants to ensure that we protect kids.
Melea: Thank you for having me
Anne: Melea lives in Alabama. She’s currently working on passing a bill in her state. We’ll also talk about how you can help protect children online in your location. Can you tell us about what’s going on in Alabama right now?
Melea: Last legislative session, we worked to pass what we call a filter bill. It’s a bill that would require tablets and smartphones to have the filters defaulted on. One of the names it had was the default to safety bill. We had different names at different points, but a similar bill passed in Utah a few years ago. And we wanted to pass it in Alabama. Several other states are interested in introducing it.
One reason we wanted to promote this bill is that we know 47 percent of young children have their first unwanted early exposure on smartphones and tablets. It’s just a common sense protection to have pre existing filters already on smartphones and tablets defaulted on. Versus putting the burden on caregivers and parents to try to go through 30 some odd steps on many devices to figure out how to activate existing content filters.
Details Of The Filter Bill
Melea: We have Supreme Court precedent that says it is preferable for protections to come at the filter level on devices. We know this bill would be upheld in court. And we’re confident it would be very enforceable. And all it is simply doing is asking that three major companies, Amazon with the Kindle, the Apple products and Google with their products, have smartphones and tablets.
That a software update would happen, which is a very simple fix. We’ve talked to software experts who work closely with device manufacturers. They would just do a very simple update that would allow phones activated in Alabama to have the default on instead of off with the content filter. And it automatically has broad based protections for young children, so they’re less likely to stumble across online explicit material at an early age.
People would say kids will find ways to get around it, obviously, but we were talking about very young children who aren’t even thinking about it that stumble upon this content. And it Is very traumatic to them to not understand what they’re looking at and the way it affects their brain. This gives them extra years of innocence, safety, and protection. I had the honor of speaking to different parent groups.
And have spoken to schools and churches in areas where kids don’t have involved parents. And those children, child on child, harmful behavior is rampant in those communities. Parents just hand children devices. They need resources to stop human trafficking and this behavior. No one’s looking for them, and they can become addicted to online explicit material and they act out what they see. That’s what children do. They copy what they see.
Challenges & Opposition
Melea: Then there’s a cycle of abuse happening and a cycle of trauma. So I especially think about those children when I think about this bill. We’ve been excited. We had a great response last session and had 67 bipartisan co sponsors in the House, and it passed through committee with bipartisan support. We got to the Senate, it passed through committee with bipartisan support. There are people working hard to stop human trafficking and help with this effort.
It was poised to be passed through the Senate. But we had one person in the Senate, who refused to allow it on the calendar. It only takes one or two people to set the calendar. They blocked it because a lot of opposition turned up to fight along the way. And that’s been true in every other state. Big tech has been our opposition. And telecommunications companies have also shown up at all our hearings with their lobbyists.
Even though our bill has zero to do with companies like AT&T or Verizon. They’re not held liable. It’s explicitly stated in our bill. They would show up, because unfortunately, big tech and telecommunications companies and the industry will sometimes fight common sense browsing protections for kids. And it’s really sad. But that’s one of the things we dealt with. Unfortunately, this gentleman blocked it. We assume there was pressure from lobbyists and one company in particular.
So we’re doing it again this session. I’m not discouraged. I’m encouraged, because the version we have this session is even better, has even more protections built in, and we have major support across the state. So I’m excited about getting the ball rolling again this session.
Resources To Stop Human Trafficking: Financial & Regulatory Obstacles
Anne: They’ll say all kinds of reasons that aren’t real. What’s the reason they don’t want to do it? Is it just simply money, this type of exploitation is sadly about money.
Melea: Money is a big factor. We know that historically, Google, AT& T or Verizon, do they get back general profits from online explicit material?
Melea: They do, and they have. There is potentially a loss of revenue. Big tech hates regulations. They do not want to be restricted in any way, shape, or form. They don’t want to give up an inch. So I think money, power, and resistance to any form of regulation. To me, it’s a safety feature on a on a car or something like requiring that they have proper antilock brakes on a car, something reasonable. And in this case, it’s just a simple software update. All the technology is there.
Anne: I hope this does not sound too political, but I’m a patriot saying, I’m grateful for all the government services we have. We have roads, we have a military, we have things in place to keep us safe. And that’s only something that the government can do, because the government is all of us. So I am so grateful that we have these opportunities to protect us. We need to do that through the government, because nobody’s going to willingly do that.
Although NCOSE has worked well with some companies. So that is exciting. They provide resources to stop human trafficking and are helping this bill to pass.
https://youtube.com/shorts/S6X4w_XglIA
Resources To Stop Human Trafficking: The Dirty Dozen List
Melea: Absolutely, yeah, there’s opportunity. Companies respond to positive communication and sometimes negative. We have what’s called the dirty dozen list, and name and shame the main promoters of exploitation. We have had tremendous success, because once things are brought to light, it’s been refreshing that several companies have changed their corporate policies and resources to stop trafficking or unwanted exposure to online explicit material.
This has been a very tooth and nail fight all along the way. The opposition will say, well, you should just be fighting the online explicit material, instead of asking the manufacturers to do this at the device level, which I agree. We are like the National Center on Exploitation, and many of our allies are constantly fighting the industry to make changes there. But I wish our government was stepping up in this issue.
Because the laws on the books on a federal level would prohibit the production and distribution of hardcore online explicit material, which is the majority of harmful on the internet. And also our laws prohibit the distribution of all online explicit material, whether soft core or hardcore, from our internet. But our department of justice for many years has not been enforcing federal obscenity laws. That leaves us to tackle this issue of illegal content through corporate strategies and legislation.
Through lawsuits, like we have lawsuits against providers that are, we’re winning right now. We’re gutting companies because of lawsuits that we have with survivors. So we’re having to go at it every different angle.
Practical Steps & Community Support
Melea: But this is one of the most practical, simplistic things we can do to protect children. As I’ve talked to families across the state of Alabama, whether they’re Democrat, Republican, it doesn’t matter. They really, really want to see this passed, and they’re upset it was blocked last session. There’s opposition from big tech, the industry and telecommunications companies.
And to everyday citizens that want to make a difference and make an impact when it comes to stopping and resources to stop trafficking and exploitation in general. At NCOSE, we understand that you’ve got to go upstream. I don’t know if you’ve heard the analogy of seeing people floating down the river drowning. You rush in to try to pull out as many as possible, and you’re struggling to get as many to safety as possible.
And you do this for a long time until you’re exhausted, but you’re not able to get to everyone. Eventually you come to this idea of like, I’ve got to go upstream and figure out who’s throwing people in the river. And so you go upstream and find out there’s someone who’s shoving all these people into the river. And in this case, that’s the industry because today’s mainstream online explicit material is highly addictive.
It changes their belief system, gives them permission, giving beliefs about consent and buying. People become objects. It’s creating a world of harm. And we know that if we did not have rampant, hardcore material if it was restricted to adult bookstores. Like you had back in the eighties with soft core material. As bad as that was, if we just lived back in that world, that’s what our laws on the book say.
Resources To Stop Human Trafficking: NCOSE’s Action Center
Melea: Our world should look like when it comes to online explicit material in the United States. There should be nothing on the internet, nothing on cable, or satellite TV. Can you imagine how different our world would be if our children could go through their developmental years without exposure to it around every corner? So that’s what we strive for is a shift in cultural expectations.
But then there are also practical things we’re doing to interrupt the cycles of things feeding trafficking. So we’d love for them to come to our website. It’s endsexualexploitation.org. And if you go to the action center, you can immediately get involved in helping us stop human trafficking and winning these victories.
Anne: I recommend NCOSE because so many people are talking about trafficking these days. And I have a really interesting story that is super alarming. So, one of my friends was on an airplane, and she was sitting next to a man, and they started talking about politics. He said, “I’m voting for this person because of his record on trafficking, because he will protect the children.”
Her ears perked up and she was like, oh, really, tell me more about this. He said, yeah, there’s these people are stealing these kids and we’ve got to stop it. And then she said, what do you do for a living? And guess what he did for a living?
Melea: What?
Anne: He owned a strip club.
Melea: Oh my gosh. You’re kidding.
Anne: No, so here’s a man who is an actual literal trafficker. He owns a strip club. And he’s talking about this nameless faceless group of people who’s like kidnapping kids when we know who they are. It’s him.
Getting Involved With NCOSE
Anne: We know who the exploiters are. It’s obvious. Getting involved with NCOSE is so awesome, because it’s clear what’s happening. So that you can say, okay, this particular Senator, he’s the one blocking this bill. We can write to that particular Senator and ensure that this bill gets passed.
So I love that NCOSE clears out all the confusion, because at least this man who owned the strip club loved saying, oh yeah, we got to stop trafficking to distract from the fact that he was a trafficker. We need the resources to stop human trafficking, which NCOSE has.
Melea: Talk about denial and hypocrisy, or else just a good marketing scheme there, yeah.
Anne: That is scary these days. So I love that NCOSE is a very reputable organization that has been around for a long time.
Melea: They do their research, and they are careful about the details before they speak out. That’s one reason I’m hesitant as a spokeswoman for NCOSE. I want to make sure I do my best to accurately present the facts, because they have such a high standard when it comes to what they share and do.
They’re very intentional and I respect that about them and they will correct themselves if there is something that they find out is inaccurate, but they do things with a lot of integrity and they get a lot done with a very small budget and a small group of people.
Anne: Well, that’s the other thing I love about NCOSE.
NCOSE’s Credibility & Integrity
Anne: Because so many people talk to me about it, they’ll be like, nobody’s doing anything. And I’m like, every year, NCOSE with their dirty dozen list, they make progress. They have wins. And if you’re on their mailing list, you’ll get messages, and it’s so amazing to be part of that, because you can feel the momentum. And as much as online explicit material is this overarching, exploitative, abusive, systemic problem. It affects every woman who listens to this podcast.
And so many families all over the world, it’s horrific. It needs to be stopped, it’s an abuse issue. The exploiters, they don’t want people to know that progress is being made. They want people to think it’s a lost cause or fine, and what’s your problem? We should just let this go. Or the alternative, which is, there’s nothing you can do.
Melea: They want it to seem that it’s a right and an entitlement, first and foremost. They don’t want people to know that it’s illegal. They want people to feel this is a free speech issue. And it’s not, it’s not protected speech, but you would think that’s the case given everything they do. They have all these organizations that are under misleading names, such as this free speech coalition, various names that make it sound like they’re anti exploitation as well.
They have some groups that sound like they’re anti trafficking, that they’re actually the industry putting up a false front to sound like they’re being benevolent, and they’re doing everything they can to undermine decency in society.
The Best Resources To Stop Human Trafficking
Melea: So you have to do your homework and dig deep when it comes to these issues. A legislator presented this filter bill, just like in our state and in other states. Several groups came in acting like they were, pro family, pro children presenting Trojan horse stills that sounded anti exploitation, and people fell for it. It’s a very sneaky opponent. Thankfully, the law is on our side, science is on our side.
As we educate the public about the harms of it on the brain and relationships in society. And as we educate the public about what the law actually says. They become empowered to push back against this evil industry.
Anne: And so that my listeners are not distracted by actual traffickers who say, Hey, I want to stop trafficking. So you don’t accidentally support a trafficker. NCOSE is the place to get your information to stop human trafficking. They are trustworthy, they’ve been around for so long, and they do their homework. And they know who the specific people are and talk about specific actionable things. That’s what makes it so effective.
Melea: Well, thank you so much. Enjoyed my time with you.
Anne: Yes, you too. Thank you.
7 Startling Reasons Men Feel Entitled to Women’s Bodies – Rachel’s Story
May 02, 2023
Male entitlement to women’s bodies is a driving force behind emotional & psychological abuse, sexual coercion, domestic abuse, sexual violence, and homicide. Here’s what you need to know.
Rachel Moran, a former trafficking victim, shares her story below. For women who are currently in a relationship, if you’re feeling used and unseen, consider taking our free emotional abuse quiz. To see if you’re experiencing any of these types of emotional abuse (including coercion).
Why Do Men Feel Entitled to Women’s Bodies?
Navigating the complex maze of societal expectations and gender dynamics, women often find themselves at the mercy of a perplexing phenomenon—male entitlement towards their bodies. It’s a pervasive issue that manifests itself in various ways, from thinking women “owe” them.
This list explores seven compelling factors that contribute to male entitlement to women’s bodies.
1. Patriarchy is a System of Male Entitlement
Patriarchy is an established framework where men have privilege and women don’t. Historically, male experience has been the default, and women have been objectified. Their roles reduced to caregiver or sexual object. Due to their societal status, men grow up with a sense of entitlement toward many aspects of life, including women’s bodies. The belief in their innate right to women’s attention, affection, and bodies can begin early.
2. Cultural Norms Perpetuate Male Entitlement to Women’s Bodies
The media plays a significant role in perpetrating gender stereotypes and norms, often depicting women’s bodies as objects for male consumption or that women are the supporting cast. From advertising that commodifies women to movies and songs that glorify persistent pursuit of women despite their lack of interest. The cultural narrative loads messages that reinforce the idea that “real men” take control.
3. Ignorance Isn’t Bliss (For Women)
An educational gap in teaching about healthy relationships and truly mutual intimacy further exacerbates the problem. Many education systems worldwide lack a comprehensive approach to relationship and sex education. Which includes the nuanced aspects of respecting one another’s autonomy. Without this knowledge, it is easy for men (and women) to believe men are entitled to women’s bodies in various ways.
4. Religious Beliefs Support Male Entitlement To Women’s Bodies
Religious and traditional values often “assign” women the task of being the moral compass for men, as if men aren’t capable of making ethical, healthy decisions. These beliefs can simultaneously place the onus of “morality”, domestic labor, childcare, and “meeting a man’s physical needs” the duty of a “righteous” woman.
While also stripping her of equal value and decision-making power. This can lead to a paradox where, on the one hand, women are seemingly “exalted.” And on the other hand, a convenient scapegoat when men’s desires or behaviors spiral out of control. People manipulate these beliefs to justify male entitlement to women’s bodies.
5. Male Entitlement Codified Through Legal and Political Structures
The failure of legal systems to adequately protect women from emotional and psychological abuse, including coercion and coercive control reinforces female entitlement to women’s bodies.
In some instances, laws meant to protect women end up tools of oppression. For example, when rape laws require evidence of physical resistance, it implies that without this resistance, the intercourse was mutual. Or that all that was required was a “yes”, without concern for how that yes was obtained.
6. Socio-Economic Factors That Support Male Entitlement
When men are the primary earners, there can be a belief that their financial contributions translate into ownership, not only of their wife, but also of her body. This is particularly evident in cases where women are financially dependent on men and fear the consequences of asserting their rights. The resulting power imbalance exploits and justifies men’s sense of ownership and control over women, including their physical autonomy.
7. Lack of Empathy is The Root Cause of Male Entitlement
Arguably, the most pernicious aspect of male entitlement is its normalization and acceptance within male social circles. Many men fail to recognize the privileges they hold and the ways in which their behavior contributes to a culture of male entitlement.
Instead, there’s often a reluctance to hold each other accountable for actions that violate women’s rights and boundaries. Without empathy, it’s challenging to change the societal narrative that enables and excuses male entitlement. Men must begin to stand up and actively work against these norms to create a culture of respect and equality.
Why Do Men Feel Entitled to Women & Girls?
Rachel and Anne work through the origins of male entitlement. It’s important to understand that male entitlement isn’t biological – there is hope. Just as boys learn to feel ownership over women’s bodies, they can learn to be respectful, caring, and observant of autonomy.
Transcript: 7 Startling Reasons Men Feel Entitled To Women’s Bodies
Anne: I have Rachel Moran on today’s episode. She is pioneering international progress in policy and collaborative advocacy to actualize robust solutions to exploitation. Jane Fonda endorsed her work, U.S. president, Jimmy Carter, Gloria Steinem, and many others.
Prior to joining the International Center on Exploitation, Rachel founded and led Space International, an international organization formed giving voice to women who have survived the abusive reality of prostitution. She’s also the author of the bestselling book, Paid For: My Journey Through Prostitution, we are so excited to have you on. Thank you so much for your time, Rachel.
Rachel Moran: Thanks so much for having me.
Anne: Rachel, we’re going to talk today about prostitution and how that intersects with trafficking. You have so much experience on this issue. And I appreciate everything that you’ve done to help women survivors all over the world.
So let’s start with the fundamental systemic problem of male entitlement to women’s bodies.
Rachel Moran: Male entitlement has existed across time, but it’s changed shape and intensity. In the last 20, 25 years, since we’ve had the internet, social media, all these different mechanisms. It’s why your husband is constantly on his phone. Men are bombarded through these mechanisms. With that message every day, especially when you’re talking about, you know, 20 something young guys today, they never lived in a world without the internet. They cannot conceive of it. I’ll be eternally grateful that I was born in the mid 1970s.
I’ll always be able to see the internet as something that came along at one particular point in time and wasn’t always there.
Online Explicit Content & Male Entitlement
Rachel Moran: And I actually feel sorry for anybody who can’t hold that memory. That has been an enormous contributor to male entitlement to female bodies.
Anne: Due, to their access to online explicit content? I mean, that would be my assumption, but is that what you’re thinking?
Rachel Moran: In very large part, but I think it’s more insidious than that. If you think about what life was like back in the 1980s when MTV burst onto the scene. All of a sudden, we viewed things considered very risqué back then. All of that now, it’s something that we look back on. And it appears almost charming, a relic of the past, things that would have been so scandalous that they were actually banned 35, 40 years ago.
Now they just wouldn’t turn a hair on your head. So we have this progression, is what I’m saying. Technology speeds everything up, including pushing it into the mainstream. Things considered explicit two generations ago, they’re not even on the radar anymore.
Anne: With more access to men being able to view women’s bodies via the internet. Can you talk about the correlation between the ability to view it whenever they want and their feelings of entitlement?
Rachel Moran: We covet what we see every day. If men see representations of highly sexualized women, and highly normalized. They put those two things together. I’ve had men look at me in absolute astonishment when I told them that I simply did not want their attention.
Normalization Of Harassment
Rachel Moran: I remember being in an American city a few years before the pandemic came along. It might’ve been New York, but I was there with a few women, and we were working towards abolishing all this. A man approached me in the street. I told him I didn’t appreciate his lewd and vulgar comments. He was genuinely astounded. And I can tell you one thing about that guy, is that the astonishment was real. It was genuine. My heart goes out to young women today.
Rachel Moran: Any woman under 27, 28 grew up in a culture that normalized harassment. I mean, harassment must get physical. It has to turn into assault. Before people have any idea of where the boundaries are, if they even do at that point. Women unwillingly turn a blind eye to their partners watching online explicit content. Or unwillingly participate in watching it with them.
Women reach out to me all the time, have done it for more than a decade, and often tell me their personal stories and experiences. I want to initiate conversations about that. So I’ve heard a lot of this stuff, and from everything I’ve seen, it is a toxic influence in human relationships and society more broadly.
https://youtu.be/hL8GYiJ7Cig
Anne: Absolutely, yeah, many women who listen to this podcast have been abused in many, many ways by their husband’s use of online explicit content. Marital coercion, sometimes rape, which is coercion, and so my audience is familiar with the harms of it. This male entitlement has grown so much from women’s bodies, also to women’s labor.
It’s interesting to me that as we’ve had so much progress in some ways, like women in business or women in more leadership roles, male entitlement to women’s bodies has not reduced, but increased.
Prostitution & Male Entitlement
Anne: They feel like women owe them, or that it is some type of need. That if they don’t have it met, a lot of these abusive men, there will be some consequences if their wife isn’t meeting her wifely duties. It’s alarming and harmful to women.
So for my audience, a difficult part of Rachel’s story. Men prostituted Ms. Moran for seven years in Dublin and across Ireland, beginning when she was 15 years old. I want to talk to you about this male entitlement and how it fuels prostitution and trafficking. I also want to help people understand that women in this situation who are abused like this are coerced and used.
Many women who listen to this podcast, their husbands, perhaps solicited a prostitute. And they have a hard time sometimes wrapping their heads around that he not only abused his wife. Because he gaslit, lied and psychologically abused her, but also abused the woman he exploited.
Rachel Moran: Prostitution couldn’t exist without male entitlement. It just simply couldn’t. I don’t think any man in the history of the world has ever paid to put his hands on a woman in any circumstances that I can imagine. Except by deciding himself entitled to do so. You know, I spent a decade writing my memoir, Paid For.
I don’t think I covered all the angles, because there’s far too many of them. But I gave it a good shot, and we published 110,000 words in the end. So, you know, that’s not a brief segment of writing. So I taught a lot and I, and I’ve talked a lot too. I’ve given public presentations for a long time now, well, more than a decade.
The Concept Of Consent
Rachel Moran: And it’s still hard to explain in a snapshot moment. You’re not going to get this across in a few minutes. I think the concept of consent is the biggest part of the problem when you’re trying to explain to people who know nothing about prostitution, what the heart and soul of prostitution truly is. Because people say to themselves, oh well she consented, oh well they consented, and as long as those women are consenting, well then no, no harm, no foul, you know.
People misplace the term consent itself, and the concept of consent not only in prostitution, but also in conversations about every kind of intimate exchange. Because it is supposed to be about mutuality, not consent. The term consent is far better suited to commercial exchanges or other kinds of exchanges that are not human, deeply human in their interactions. As soon as we start talking about consent, we remove the intimacy.
We remove what it is that actually passes between two people in a intimate exchange. The exchange shouldn’t involve money or any kind of coercion. And that’s another thing that people miss, is that the cash is the coercion in prostitution. Because if you removed the cash from the equation, simply nothing happens. Unless we were talking about forcible rape.
Anne: That is absolutely true. The cash is the coercion. The victims situation is so desperate. Male entitlements are forcing them with coercion to re-engage due to their circumstance.
Rachel Moran: Exactly, and this is why I don’t find the term trafficking useful. Our political opponents certainly find it useful. It allows them to distinguish between prostitutes and trafficked women.
Every Woman In Prostitution Is Coerced
Rachel Moran: So the idea of trafficking is that it refers to women in situations of force, fraud and coercion. But every woman in the history of prostitution was in a situation of coercion. If you consider the cash to coercion, as I have done from my first job, when I was 15 years of age, up till the present moment. And I’m a lot closer to 50 now than I am to 15.
You know, I’ve understood what this is for a long time, and the truth is that most men do too. You will never see a man move as quickly in your life as he will if you threaten to tell his wife. That he was there, and you’re having the conversation in the brothel.
Anne: Do you mean they know well that women are not doing it because they enjoy it? They know women receive money, and that they would not do this without money.
Rachel Moran: Yeah, most men are well aware of the circumstances and still feel that male entitlement. I have been saying for years that the veil would fall off everybody’s eyes, who condones it in whatever way they do. People tell themselves all sorts of stories, women as well as men. But I don’t believe any of these pro-legalization voices in academia, or whether they’re just ordinary housewives living their lives.
If any individual were to walk into a room and open the door and see their own daughter sitting there on a brothel’s bed for sale, that’s the great equalizer.
Male Entitlement: Men Are Buying The Right To Use A Woman’s Body
Rachel Moran: I think, when you imagine the body of someone you love used in that way. Because, you know, what men buy in prostitution. It’s not her time, they’re not buying an hour with a worker. They’re buying access, they’re buying the right to use that woman’s body.
They’re literally buying their way inside her. We think about people we love. Their bodies used in such ways are inconceivable to us. So that should tell us all we need to know about what the trade truly is.
Anne: It’s so heartbreaking to know that they are aware that this is not something an exploited woman would be doing if she weren’t desperate for the money. I like how you talked about how this isn’t about consent. Because the general feeling of consent from a male entitlement perspective would be, what can I do or say that will get her to have it with me? Rather than the perspective of is she interested in an intimate experience?
Is she actually wanting a physical experience, because she feels loved, cared about and seen? They’re thinking, well, I just have to get that yes. I feel like the world sort of sees “consent.” As just getting the yes, as long as she’ll sign right here on the dotted line, good, I’ve got her.
Mutuality vs. Consent
Anne: She gave her consent. I don’t know what the problem is. Rather than asking, what did she want or need in that moment? She wanted and needed money in that moment. In the case of prostitution, she needed to pay the bills. She needed to eat. is that kind of what you meant?
You didn’t like the word consent, because, hey, I can lie to her. As long as she signs on that dotted line, I’m good to go. Rather than a man with male entitlement actually having an interest in the person and caring about what their hopes and dreams are.
Rachel Moran: There is a daily tsunami of abuse and violation. The abuse is covered up, concealed, and condoned by the word consent. At this point, I think it’s a frankly dangerous word.
There was a time when I thought it was useless and a misplaced word. But I’ve evolved my thinking to believe it’s a dangerous word. Because anything regularly used to conceal harm has got to be dangerous, and that’s where I’m at with the word consent. I just don’t use it anymore unless I’m explaining why I don’t use it.
Anne: So how would you define consent in the sense that a woman is interested in an experience?
Rachel Moran: I talk about mutuality, because that’s what you’re talking about. There is a two-way street. In prostitution, it’s a one-way street. He’s getting the contact he wants. She’s getting the money she needs. And there is no mutuality whatsoever, which is exactly why the term consent is misapplied.
Trying To Get The Yes
Rachel Moran: You talked earlier about the way male entitlement justifies abusers only needing that yes, that’s only some of them, of course. But I believe we need to force a shift away from the use of the term consent, for all the reasons I’ve described. But of course, we have to replace that with something else, like you alluded to. And I think mutuality is that word.
Anne: So many organizations are trying to teach people about consent. And in part, they’re saying it’s an enthusiastic yes. Many abusers interpret that as, okay, how do I groom her to think I’m interested in her? How do I lie to her? Or what do I have to say to get the yes? And I think what you’re saying is they’re seeing a consent as some sort of transaction. I’m going to give you this. You’re going to give me that. And it’s this exchange of goods or services, essentially.
That is not what an experience should be about. If I hear you right, you’re saying that’s why you don’t like the word consent. Because the way it’s taught and talked about these days is so transactional and not at all relational.
Rachel Moran: Yeah, consent was never the right word, just from a linguistic point of view. And so for that reason, I think it’s little wonder that it’s been so misused. I’ve talked a lot about this elsewhere, about language around this whole issue. And the way that if you make one single misstep at the outset, every other step you take linguistically can only lead you in the wrong direction.
Male Entitlement: The Role ofSelf Published Exploitation
Rachel Moran: And you make a misstep with the language, and inevitably you make a misstep with the politics, etc. It’s a dangerous misstep to make. Because it starts with the language, moves into politics, then it ends up in legislation where male entitlement influences the result. So we have to be clear about the language, especially the language we’re using when we’re initially framing ideas and concepts.
Where we’ve been brought to today is something that’s just got to be unpicked. Looking at what all this has given rise to. One of the dangerous things is that it keeps getting more hidden. What happens is we end up with things now, like self published exploitation. That’s the best kind of example I can think of right now. Onlyfans is something that’s been so expertly concealed in its nature and intentions, and the way it operates. https://www.btr.org/how-to-prevent-exploitation/
Many women actually believe this is the breakthrough that women needed to be fully autonomous in this soft core version of the trade. This is not how to prevent exploitation. And we keep being served up these examples of women who make fantastical amounts of money, tens and tens of millions. The reality is, almost all women set up an OnlyFans account. They make a few hundred dollars a month, and their images will exist online forever.
And do harm to them, their career prospects, reputations, sense of personal dignity and integrity. All for the price of what boils down to maybe a few cups of Starbucks coffee a day, if they’re lucky. And this is the reality of what’s going on.
The Dangers Of Misusing Consent
Rachel Moran: But back again to that term consent, people will simply look at it and say, Oh, but she consented. So what’s the harm? Or, oh, but she consented. So she has nobody to blame, but herself. And that’s another dangerous aspect of the term consent. The way it’s used to excuse. So it’s used in all sorts of harmful ways. And that’s one of them.
Anne: These are just more and more complex ways of blaming the victim. Women whose husband is abusive and convinced of his male entitlement could use the same argument. Well, she consented to be married to him.
Rachel Moran: Yeah, and also she didn’t leave.
Anne: Then she’s, what, by default, consenting to be emotionally and psychologically abused? No, she thought she was in a relationship with a man who cared about her. She did not realize she was in a transactionship with a man who was using and exploiting her. This consent word has really messed people up, because they think I did consent because I said yes. I’m not thinking, but I didn’t want to do it or I didn’t feel comfortable. So how would you use the term mutuality?
Rachel Moran: Ah well, that would depend much on the context. It’s not a word that you can switch out directly for consent in most instances, although you can sometimes of course. You can say well it was mutual, as readily as you can say well it was consensual, but they have those subtle but important distinctions between them. Give me a few of them now if you like, because it might be interesting for your listeners to think about how they can use this.
Consent vs. Mutuality
Anne: Maybe something like he was honest and trustworthy and actually cared about her. Both were interested in physical touch. She was safe, so the it was based on mutuality, not male entitlement. I mean, is that the kind of thing you would say, rather than saying the husband and wife went on a date, and then of course she consented to intimacy?
It would take a little longer when we talk about it to actually describe mutuality. Because it’s more than just someone saying, yes, it involves so much more. There’s no way to say, and so then she, mutualitied, right? Where you can say, and then she consented.
Rachel Moran: What you can say, just as briefly, is that it was mutual. It doesn’t have to be a big, long winded thing. We don’t have to make it more complicated than it needs to be. But I think we’ll have to push for this. Like we’ll have to actively put this into conversations and explain why.
Anne: Yeah.
Rachel Moran: Because people will continue to circle back to the whole consent thing. I mean, it’s not the boulder up a hill scenario that it might seem like. 50 years ago, nobody was talking about consent. Some idiot came along and thought that was a good idea, and it took off. Same thing happened with the term sex work, which is just appalling. But I think we can and should deliberately introduce mutuality into our conversations, and it doesn’t have to be that hard.
The Impact Of Male Entitlement
Anne: So when we’re talking about the sense that men are entitled to use women’s bodies. This male entitlement fuels trafficking and prostitution. Because so many victims are filmed, and then that documented filming of their abuse is called pornography. But we know it’s just documentation of abuse.
Rachel Moran: In a very real way, we’re all harmed. Because society itself is harmed. Clearly, the individual who’s on the receiving end of that I harm is the person who’s harmed first and foremost. But, we’re all harmed by this. Any mother who’s ever brought a little boy into this world has seen the progression of that child and the difference in his innocence, pre and post puberty. The difference between a little boy who’s eight or nine and the same child at 13 or 14.
When the social phenomenon of masculinization kicks in, and he’s at the receiving end of strange bullying from his peers that forces his personality into into hiding. That’s all part of this. Back to the conversation about male entitlement. First of all, that’s bred into men when they’re boys. It doesn’t just appear. And there’s something strange that I’ve noticed about it too. It’s not enough for these young men, I mean, you have a whole movement of them now.
I’m sure. They call themselves incels, involuntary celibates for anybody who hasn’t heard. Any one of those young men could pay to assault a woman. And it is assault in a brothel. But it’s not enough for them that women’s physical selves are available to them, because they are to every man in America and everywhere else.
The Incel Movement
Rachel Moran: That’s not enough for them. I’ve noticed this. It’s strange. They also want to be wanted, demand to be wanted. They feel very hard done by, to the point where some of them are even willing to murder. Because they’re not wanted. I think that that takes male entitlement to a strange place, and we seem to witness something larger than anything that I think we’ve ever seen throughout history.
Anne: Wait, wait, I just sit around playing video games all day. And all I eat is like a monster energy drink, and you are not interested in talking to me. Like not only should you want to have it with me, which I’m entitled to, but you should also want to be with me and clean up my mess, and why in the world would you not think I’m awesome?
Rachel Moran: Yeah, this is what we’re up against. We’ve somehow created this kind of distortion in the minds of young men, well before they ever were young men. Because this starts, like I said, in boyhood.
And it’s like that. They think they can sit in their mother’s spare room and eat Doritos all day, and maybe call a pizza. And play video games, and when they’re not chatting about what women are for, they are for not wanting to sleep with them on the regular. It’s just wall to wall male entitlement.
It’s a hardcore male entitlement. Some men take that to the level of a psychosis of entitlement. We just saw the first mortar here in Ireland since the passage of the Nordic model. which was implemented six years ago. There was a woman murdered here only a few weeks back, a Muslim woman from Romania.
Taking Male Entitlement To Extremes
Rachel Moran: She’d only lived in Ireland for three weeks at the time she was killed. She was killed by a Middle Eastern man who’d only been here a couple of months. You’d have to be a flat fool or live under a rock or something, not to realize that this was one of those ugly, male on female examples of violence. From Islamic extremists that are sometimes to as “honor killings.”
He killed her because she was a Muslim woman in a brothel in the Western world. Sleeping with the infidels. This is what his whole thinking was. He was arrested the next day in Belfast. He’d skipped across the border. He was arguing he would have to be granted bail. Because he couldn’t possibly have his religious convictions pandered to if he was detained in prison.
So, here’s this guy talking about his faith in Allah needs to be respected. After he’s just butchered this poor woman. He didn’t turn up there for an encounter. He killed her in 1 minute 57 seconds. That’s how long it took him to arrive at her apartment, walk in, murder her and leave, under 2 minutes. It exemplifies the level and nature of the brutality that we’re dealing with with male entitlement.
Anne: It is excellent. It’s talking about this type of extreme misogyny that leads to physical violence. She’s talking about murders like the one you just described. But also domestic abuse, not just physical, although it definitely includes that, but also all the emotional and psychological abuse that women endure from men who believe in male entitlement to women’s bodies, but also their labor.
They feel like you owe me this, because you’re just a woman, and I’m a man. As victims of this type of abuse, the only thing we can do is get to safety. Start making our way to emotional and psychological safety. Make sure that the people around us are safe. We’ve heard a lot about the abuse of women.
And I think it’s important to acknowledge that we’re actually caring people, rather than people who want to exploit us and see us as a good or service that they can exchange with. What are your thoughts about how to change this mentality, knowing that women who listen to this podcast have no ability to change the mentality of the abusers out there?
Rachel Moran: First of all, every woman should join the women’s movement. It’s absolutely untrue that we don’t have it within our gift to affect change. Every woman has their voice to raise and their presence to bring. Every last one of us is valid and relevant, because if every woman ever was hurt and harmed, would bring her own voice in her own way. Whatever that is, to the women’s movement. We would have a big movement. Most of the women on earth would be involved in that.
Prostitution & Violence Against Women
Rachel Moran: Another thing, this is obscure for most women and for understandable reasons, but I truly believe that as long as we have prostitution on this earth, we will always have violence against women.
Anne: I absolutely agree with you, yes.
Rachel Moran: Some people think you can contain violence against women by directing it towards one group of women. And that those women can or should for the greater good of most women be served up as human shields. I have heard women make remarks along those lines that would so, so clearly believe that some segment of us should be used to absorb male entitlement and men’s violence.
Anne: Really? You’ve heard that?
Rachel Moran: Oh, absolutely.
Anne: That’s crazy.
Rachel Moran: You see, here’s where those women are silly in their thinking. Is that as long as we have a segment of women who are seen as the human shields of violence, what you’re doing is condoning the violence, accepting that since it needs a direction to go in. It has a right to exist in the first place. When we talk about eradicating violence against women, we’re starting from the wrong perspective.
We’re thinking about a well heeled middle class housewife, for example. And don’t misunderstand me, please. I’m not suggesting anyone deserves violence more or less than anybody else. What I’m saying is that when we think about violence against women, we think about young women in nightclubs. We think about victims of domestic violence, we think about women who are abused, harassed, stalked, etc. But we put all of our focus on what you might call civilian women.
Male Entitlement: The Propaganda Of Male Desire
Rachel Moran: And we don’t think about the women who are at the absolute outer rim of society. And I truly believe that that’s where we need to start. We need to start at that outer rim. Because if we start our work on this issue with the mentality that no woman anywhere, no matter how disadvantaged, no matter how marginalized, deserves that kind of abuse, no woman.
Anne: um hmm
Rachel Moran: Well then that will sweep across society as an understanding I believe far, far quicker.
Anne: Sorry, I’ve never heard of that before. This idea that some women should be sacrificed or something for the greater good of women. So I’m like …
Rachel Moran: Oh, that’s a very old idea.
Anne: I’m shocked anyone thinks that. It also gives the idea that it must be because of male entitlement. Rather than thinking men do not have to exploit women. That’s not a male characteristic. They could, not exploit women. They could treat women with respect.
They’re not viewing men as capable, caring human beings, that somehow their nature is to exploit. And so we have to sacrifice some women so that men don’t, I don’t know, what, turn into cannibals or something? That just sounds crazy.
Rachel Moran: The crux of the problem is that many people, including women, have come to buy the propaganda that male entitlement, and desire are an unstoppable force. What men do constantly around their own desires is that they mistake them for needs. That to me speaks to a state of toddlerhood.
Anne: Yeah.
The Role of Mothers In Perpetuating Male Entitlement
Rachel Moran: In toddlerhood, when a child gets to around three and a half, you need to clarify the difference between a want and a need. You want the ice cream, you don’t need it. There is a difference. It’s a sorry state, when we have so many grown men who ought to know better. They don’t understand the basic distinction between a want and a need.
And that’s something that we’ll have to clarify before we get any sense out of such people. But there are women, and it’s important to say this, who play that game of male entitlement and play along with it, and cause great harm in doing so. That’s been clearly exemplified to me by the women who take their sons to brothels and convince themselves that there’s a real and genuine need to take a young man or teenage boy to a brothel. Those women make me exceptionally angry.
Anne: In our community, I would say that, not a majority, but I’ve heard many, many women who their mother-in-laws would fit this category. Where their mother-in-law is like, “My son has these intense needs, and it is your job to give it to him. If you don’t give it to him, he has to get it somewhere. So of course he’s going to view online exploitation.
So it’s your fault that he views it. Or it’s your fault that he abuses and exploits prostitutes. It’s your fault, because you’re just not meeting his needs. Mother-in-laws who feel this way traumatize so many women.
Rachel Moran: It sounds like the mother-in-law from hell, I mean.
Anne: Yeah, I know.
Rachel Moran: Not every woman thinks she can speak up for herself in these circumstances. That kind of nonsense from somebody will destroy every relationship.
The Importance Of Self-Respect
Rachel Moran: In your life, most importantly, your relationship with your own self, there comes a point in our lives where we have to put the relationship with ourselves front and center. And if that means the collapse of a marriage, so be it. Because if a marriage is under that kind of pressure, it’s a pretty good indication that it’s best off collapsed.
Anne: And going back to that discussion we had about consent. In my opinion, it’s not a marriage. It’s a transactionship where male entitlement exploits you. That’s a totally different thing than what marriage should be, which is a partnership. It is not that. And so you’re not collapsing a marriage. You are getting to safety from a very unsafe situation.
Rachel Moran: Um hmm, yeah.
Anne: Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. Your insights are invaluable and I really, really appreciate your thoughts.
Rachel Moran: You’re very welcome.
Ready To Experience Post Traumatic Growth? Here’s How
Apr 25, 2023
Post traumatic growth may feel like a dream that’s out of reach. If you’ve been a victim of betrayal trauma and emotional and psychological abuse. But the research says you CAN heal! Here’s what you need to know.
Before you consider post traumatic growth. You need to know if you’re completely protected from emotional abuse. Did you know there are 19 types of emotional abuse?
Transcript: Are You Ready To Experience Post Traumatic Growth?
Anne: Simona is a doctoral student at Auburn University. Welcome Simona.
Simona: Well, thank you, Anne. thanks for having me on your podcast. I am so excited to be with you.
Anne: I participated in your study, as well as many women in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery community. So let’s start with your study.
Simona: Yeah, by the way, I loved having you on my study as a participant. I realized there’s a gap in literature surrounding post traumatic growth. Which is the growth that people experience after a whole lot of suffering and trauma. And I got interested in this subject because we don’t have a lot of studies to offer hope. Because honestly, this kind of experience doesn’t make sense if we don’t have a community. So I started thinking about this.
Anne: Does your study touch on what causes the betrayal trauma symptoms, or just post traumatic growth?
Simona: No.
Anne: I wonder if the participants identify the cause of the trauma as ongoing abuse. What are they identifying as the cause of the trauma?
Simona: I think they might have known about their spouse’s addiction, but they didn’t know the extent of it.
Anne: So they don’t identify the emotional and psychological abuse that they’ve been experiencing?
Simona: Some people don’t, because they can’t define that. They don’t know that’s abuse. They need a person in their life that can say to them, this is actually abuse. This is domestic violence. and chronic stress. This is verbal abuse, manipulation, or psychological abuse. So I think many partners do not even recognize that or define it.
Challenges In Identifying Abuse
Simona: Sometimes their communities do not support them to identify that. As, hey, this is a threat to my identity, my physical integrity, emotional well-being, and my children’s well-being. We are not trained, a lot of us, to recognize this is an actual threat.
Anne: Why do you think in general, the therapeutic community doesn’t recognize that the trauma women experience is from abuse? Or how to know if their husband is abusive? Why do you think they focus on maybe the disclosure or discovering it?
Which is part of the abuse, it’s psychological abuse, the deception and manipulation. Because had they not been psychologically abused. They would have known that their husband had an affair or watched explicit material. Why do you think they don’t clearly identify it due to emotional and psychological abuse and coercion?
Simona: I think it takes a lot of time for a person who has lived in that kind of manipulation and control to escape that chaos, haze, and fog. So I would say for me I’m missing pieces. We do not ask the right questions to assess correctly what’s going on, heal, and experience post traumatic growth.
Anne: For example, if they come in and say hey, my husband is psychologically and emotionally abusing me. Then the therapist would be like, okay. But you’re saying just in general, and I know you don’t speak for all therapists. But perhaps if a person can’t identify they’re being abused. Then their therapist won’t educate them and help them identify it necessarily? They’re just going to meet them where they are?
Betrtayal Trauma Recovery’s Approach To Abuse
Anne: I think that’s why, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I feel comfortable saying it’s abuse. So anyone who says my husband uses explicit material will be like, oh, you’re dealing with abuse then, right out of the gate. At least for Betrayal Trauma Recovery and the women that come here, that works. We can determine where he is on this spectrum of abuse. Is he lying to you? Has he been gaslighting you?
The main thing on their radar is emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, rather than is he in recovery.
Simona: Right, which I appreciate. I’ve learned over the years it’s better to ask the right questions at the beginning, what’s going on there.
Anne: If explicit material is part of the equation, it’s an abuse issue. And so there’s no reason to have a couples therapist or therapist who’s seeing both people. Because this is an abuse issue, and it’s counter indicated. The explicit material is the indicator that you’re working with an abuser. This is how infidelity is harmful. So let’s talk about your study of post traumatic growth.
Post Traumatic Growth Explained
Simona: Post traumatic growth is the growth that happens out of that suffering. It’s really our attempt as human beings to reveal and integrate our interpretation of that trauma. In hopes to find a sense of purpose and coherence for our lives.
Anne: In talking with women experiencing the emotional and psychological abuse associated with someone who is a addict. How do we deal with growth, since the trauma is not post? Like, it’s ongoing.
Simona: You know, that’s a good question. From anecdotal research, yes, I think there are many partners that still live in that traumatic stress, as the threat is not over. And at that point, what I find is that yes, maybe the partners grow. And make sense of some part of their trauma, they grow in some direction.
Anne: Rather than post traumatic growth, would we call it maybe like, during traumatic growth or something? What’s a word? Yeah. We should invent it right now.
Simona: We should invent it right now.
Anne: Current, current traumatic growth.
Simona: I think they grow in identity, as they’re forced to change careers, go back to school. Or to figure things out that they never had to figure out before. And so I think they grow in those areas. But yeah, I would say they’re still in chronic stress. They’re still in a situation where their ability to cope and adapt to life is very hard. Because of these circumstances they have no control over. So they’re in constant threat.
Anne: The trauma they’re experiencing, because it’s due to emotional and psychological abuse. Isn’t going to stop until they’re separated or far enough away from that harm.
Impact Of Divorce On Trauma
Anne: Were all of them divorced?
Simona: They’re all divorced, yes. And most of them divorced for at least two years. And even separated for longer than that, three or four years. Because that time between the traumatic event and the process of divorce does make a difference. It’s a variable, right? Time is a variable in our growth and making sense of this trauma.
Anne: So when you say the time between the traumatic event and the divorce. You’re not counting all of the traumatic events, like all the lies and emotional and psychological abuse in your study?
Simona: No, I am not studying that.
Anne: So the only thing you’re studying is the time after they discovered their husband was using explicit material.
Simona: Right, yeah, and I think that would be an incredible variable to study. I just have not done that. And I haven’t even configured a question to consider it. And I think that would be an amazing study to see how they grow through this constant stress and constant chronic lying. Especially if you have children and are in custody negotiations or divorce. How did they grow through it? And what kind of support do they need to make sense of it?
Anne: As you interviewed your participants. Just in general, I know that we’re not getting into specifics right now. How many of them continue to experience emotional and psychological abuse after their divorce?
Simona: I would say about half of them, because they have young children.
Anne: So some of the participants, did not share children?
Simona: Some of the participants did not have any or they have full custody.
Experiences Of Emotional & Psychological Abuse Post-Divorce
Anne: Okay, so the ones with full custody, did you find they had less abuse incidents?
Simona: Yes, mm hmm. Because many of them in my study were able to figure out how to separate from that person. And keep them out of their lives as much as possible.
Anne: So in that sense, it was post traumatic stress, the trauma had stopped. Yeah, I mean, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we confirm over and over again that safety is the treatment. I mean, these women don’t need therapy. They just need to get away from abuse. So that’s why I developed The Betrayal Trauma Living Free Workshop. Which first helps them identify their husband’s true character.
Like what exactly is going on. And then gives them safety strategies to actually protect themselves from the harm. And that is the treatment. If they’re not being abused, they do great. So what are some things that surprised you about what women learned and gained? And when I say gained, I mean, obviously nobody wants to be abused. But what surprised you about what women gained through their post traumatic growth?
Simona: There were about 10 themes that came up consistently, with every one of my participants. They have to tell their stories. They go back and forth between telling me the story of abuse in the marriage and their post tramatic growth. And how they’ve come to this place.
Themes From The Study About Post Traumatic Growth
Simona: What surprised me was honestly, Anne, every one of my participants talked extensively about how they had a gut feeling. And they knew that this person was not healthy enough to be a husband, father and partner. And they were not connected somatically to their bodies.
Anne: My guess is they were always trying to resist the abuse. They talked to their husband about it, but they were manipulated out of it. I mean, their husband was like, no, you’re crazy. Of course, that’s not happening. Or you know, a therapist may have said. Let’s improve your communication. Or they went to clergy, and the clergy said, “Are you a good wife? Have faith and pray. So, I think it was more external factors. I mean, they all discounted her feelings.
It’s likely that she actually expressed them to people, and they were discounting her all the time. And being a reasonable, normal, healthy person, she’s taking into account their perspectives. And she’s thinking, maybe they are right. Instead of thinking, I need to go with my gut feeling, and all these other people don’t know what they’re talking about. I mean, that’s a really difficult thing for a reasonable woman to do.
Because if all these other people say he’s fine and that things are good. Then I might be crazy to think that my opinion matters more than these 10 other people’s opinions. I mean, it only proves how reasonable women are, I think.
Connecting With Gut Feelings
Anne: When you said somatically, for our listeners who might not know what that means. Can you define that?
Simona: Yeah, somatic means being in your body with your senses, being connected to yourself to be in tune with your sense of safety, your sense of value, your sense of integrity in your body. I am in my present tense in this place at this moment with this person. And this feels healthy, peaceful, chaotic, or just feels something, but I can’t define what it is. It just doesn’t feel quite right.
Anne: In addition, women maybe not being trained or given permission. I also think there are so many societal, institutional or religious things where people say to women, no, no, no, it’s not that. He’s a great guy and doing well. They’ll go for help to anyone. It could be family, friends or clergy. It could be anybody.
And the person they go to for help is like, oh, you know, that happened to me once, and I was just forgiving and it all worked out. Instead of digging in and helping women trust their gut. It’s amazing how many times women go for help, and then they’re talked out of it.
Simona: I would agree with you, yes.
Anne: So that was one of the main themes, which was that women have these somatic experiences, where they have a gut feeling where something isn’t right. But for whatever reason, they’re not able to identify it. They’re talked out of it. Can you talk about the other main themes you found?
Spiritual Bypassing & Abuse
Simona: Yeah, another one that surprised me was they started being awakened to spiritual bypassing in their families and communities. Which is the idea of, we use a sense of religiosity, which is performance and rules, to bypass how we feel. To bypass healthy boundaries, to bypass talking about what is toxic.
And they are awakened to this spiritual bypassing in their communities. While they realize that their higher power, and for many of my participants, it’s God. Their higher power is a person, and they want to go deeper into this authentic relationship with their higher power. Spiritual bypassing is using our religiosity, our religious beliefs, and religious rules. I would call it legalism, to bypass how we feel, to bypass the abuse, to rationalize it and minimize it.
In some communities, a sign of spiritual bypassing being super spiritual, but not looking at the reality of somebody’s lack of boundaries.
Anne: Or there’s some, I’m going to use the word magical, a magical way to not have to process the injuries. That you have incurred from the abuse. And also some kind of magical way. Also praying for their husband to change. That this abusive person can literally change their character from the inside out in a sudden way. I am religious, and I don’t want to say that’s impossible, because I believe with God, all things are possible. But I also believe God has provided us with a way to change in the work, not without it.
Simona: Yes, the Bible. There’s nothing in there where somebody uses their spirituality, their relationship to God, to avoid unresolved issues. Jesus did not preach that. He was good in boundaries. He allowed Judas to hang himself because of his own dysfunction.
Give Yourself Some Space For Post Traumatic Growth
Anne: And I also think it’s a direct result of spiritual abuse, the abuser using these spiritual principles to blame the victim. And because they’re weaponizing spiritual principles, it gets confusing about what I believe Jesus actually intended. Which over and over again, he says, separate from wickedness. Give yourself some space. The abuser would like you to stay very close, so he can continue to exploit you.
Simona: And don’t express your anger.
Anne: Right, because it’s hard to exploit someone when they’re angry. You know they’re not going to do what you want if they’re mad at you, exactly. Well, Simona, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts about your study on post traumatic growth today.
Simona: Thank you so much.
What My Daughter Taught Me About How To Say No
Apr 18, 2023
It’s hard to say no. How to say no is especially difficult when your husband is emotionally abusive. Penny has an abusive father, and has some amazing tips about how to say no.
The general idea is this: If it’s unhealthy, harming me, or I don’t want to do it AND it’s arbitrary, I say no.
Try:
Saying “No, thank you” politely.
You don’t need to offer explanations or reasons.
Say no in writing, if it’s easier.
The basic idea is pretty simple, but important: I say yes when it’s a healthy choice. I say yes to what I want.
It’s Okay To Change Your Mind
If you’re struggling to know if something is unhealthy, do you know the 19 types of emotional abuse? If not, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Sometimes we say yes when we meant no – or feel coerced or manipulated into saying yes. Sometimes we say no, then later realize we would like to say yes. How to say no? You’re allowed to change your mind! You’re allowed to make mistakes!
Anne: I have a special guest on the podcast today. She wanted to be called Vanellope after Vanellope von Schweetz from Wreck It Ralph. So we’re gonna call her Vanellope or Penny for short. She is my eight year old daughter. Welcome, Penny.
Penny: Hi, I want to teach you how to say no thank you. So, if someone who is abusive says, do the dishes! Or like, do everything, then you could just say, No, thank you.
Anne: So Penny is a good example. She started doing this on her own. Basically, if somebody asks her something she doesn’t want to do, she politely and sweetly smiles and says.
Penny: No, thank you.
Anne: And she says it a lot.
Penny: No, thank you! When someone asks me to do it, I’m like, I don’t wanna do it. So I’m like, no, thank you.
Anne: You seem confident when you say it. I find it impressive. So I’m going to talk to my listeners for a second, okay? Now because Penny is kind and happy, and she’s not afraid to say no. When she first started doing this, it caught me off guard.
Because sometimes she would say it when I asked her to brush her teeth. And as her mom, even though I’m assertive, when she said, no, thank you. It stopped me in my tracks. Then I thought, oh, I guess that’s it. I guess she’ll never brush her teeth. Now as her mom, I was able to tell her, this is a healthy thing we need to do. And we overcame that.
The Effectiveness of ‘No Thank You’
Anne: How to say no? A simple, no, thank you is such an effective thing to say to an abusive person. And of course, they will try to fight you or maybe try to get around it. But this simple way of saying no is effective. When Penny does it, she doesn’t even give an explanation. She doesn’t give a reason. She just says, no, thank you.
So even though she’s happy, friendly, and cheerful, it doesn’t even seem like she’s open to negotiation. Do you know what I mean by that? When I say it doesn’t seem like you’re open to negotiation.
Penny: Not really.
Anne: It seems like you want to say no, and that’s the end of the conversation, and you don’t expect them to try and talk you into it. Like when you say no thank you, you don’t give a reason, you don’t complain.
Penny: Like at a dinner party if you don’t want that food. I would say no, thank you.
Anne: Have you said that before when you’re somewhere else and someone offers you some food?
Penny: Yeah, I have. I’m like, now they know that I don’t like that food.
Anne: How do you feel about yourself when you stand up for what you want to do? Do you think, hey, my opinions matter?
Penny: Yeah. Like, I don’t like this.
Anne: So, is it hard for you to say no?
Penny: No, it’s not that hard for me to say no. It’s easy for me to say no for some reason. I can do it easily.
Challenges In Saying No
Anne: Why do you think it might be hard for other people to say no? And why would people wonder how to say no?
Penny: Because they don’t want to hurt people’s feelings,
Anne: Maybe they’re not confident that saying no is the right thing to do or not.
Penny: Well, I don’t know if it’s the right thing to say no or yes. I know how to say no or yes, and know it’s the right thing. Because you have a feeling to say no or you have a feeling to say sure, I’ll do that, even though you don’t want to. Like, do the laundry or do the dishes.
Anne: So, with those things, is it like, I don’t want to do it, but I know in my heart it’s the right thing. Like, I don’t want to brush my teeth, but I know in my heart that I should brush my teeth.
Penny: Yeah, like, if you feel you need to do that, you’re like, okay, I’ll do that.
Anne: Even if you don’t want to do it.
Penny: Even if you don’t want to do it.
Anne: So is your guide, first of all, what you want to do?
Penny: No, your guide is not what you want to do sometimes. My guide is like, I know I don’t want to do that, but I have to eat vegetables.
So, if your mom says you have to wear these pants, and I don’t want to wear these pants. I want to wear these other pants. And then your mom’s like, I think you should wear these pants. But then you’re like, I don’t want to wear them. You could just put on the other pants that you want to wear.
How To Say No: Advice For Women In Abusive Relationships
Anne: Yeah. In that case, you didn’t even have to say, no, you just set a boundary by wearing the pants you wanted to wear, right?
Penny: I know.
Anne: Have you ever been afraid to set a boundary with me or to say no to me? Or wondered how to say no?
Penny: No.
Anne: You just said it. Are you afraid of saying no to some people? Like are there people around you that you’re like, I want to say no, but I feel uncomfortable.
Penny: Not really.
Anne: You feel like you can say no?
Penny: Yeah, to anybody. If they ask me like to sit here and I’m like, I don’t want to sit there, I could say no. I’m not afraid to say no.
Anne: Women who listen to my podcast are all women who have been abused in some way. So their husband or ex-husband hurt them and lied to them. He’s mean to them, deceived them, yelled at them or used pornography without them knowing. Maybe they had an affair. Some of them might be worried about saying no. Because they’re worried if they say no, he might divorce them. Or maybe their husband will get upset with them. What are your thoughts about that?
Penny: You could say no if you want to just like think in your mind is that the right thing to do. So think for a while, and then if you think you should, say no.
Anne: Yeah, so being connected to your inner voice is important.
Anne: That’s why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. I wanted women to reconnect with their inner voice. To determine what the right thing is to do, to see what their husband’s true character is.
Living Free Workshop: Reconnecting With Your Inner Voice
So they could make their right choices. And to my listeners to learn more about the Living Free Workshop, which will help you determine your husband’s character. Then help, you know what safety strategies to use. Click on the link in the previous paragraph. So Penny does it come down to knowing in your heart what you want to do, and then just doing that?
Penny: Yes, that’s what I think, like being honest is what you should do. If you’re like, I don’t want to do that, but it might hurt their feelings. You have to be honest, not lying.
Anne: Is there a way to be honest and not hurt their feelings?
Penny: Yes.
Anne: And how do you do that?
Penny: By saying it in like a kind way, like, no thank you. I don’t really want to sit by you, I want to sit over here.
Penny: If you want to, you could give a reason, but if you don’t want to, you don’t have to give a reason.
Anne: Why do you think it’s hard for people to say what they really think?
Penny: Well, they might think that might hurt the person, or that might make me lose something. Or it might be the wrong thing, or they might be afraid to say no. Because they think they will hurt them, or they will be mean to them.
Examples Of Saying No & Yes
Penny: Well, they might think that might hurt the person, or that might make me lose something. Or it might be the wrong thing, or they might be afraid to say no. Because they think they will hurt them, or they will be mean to them.
Anne: Has that happened to you before?
Penny: Not really. I have never felt afraid to say no.
Anne: I’m impressed with your no saying skills, you’re excellent at saying no. You’re excellent at saying it in a way that is kind and polite, and ends the conversation when you’re like, no, thank you.
Anne: Should we give them an example of how to say no?
Penny: Yeah.
Anne: Okay, hey, Penny.
Penny: Yes.
Anne: Will you please go get the mail?
Penny: No, thank you.
Anne: Why is that a funny one? Because you love getting the mail?
Penny: Yeah.
Anne: Were you confused for a minute? Because if I said, will you get the mail? Usually you’re like, yes.
Penny: Like since this is like …
Anne: An episode about saying no.
Penny: Yeah, like I have to say no.
Anne: You can say yes if you want to do it, so here we go. Hey Penny, will you get the mail?
Penny: Yes, I love getting the mail.
Anne: Hey Penny, will you please brush your hair?
Penny: Yes, if I brush my hair.
Anne: Hey Penny, can I brush your hair?
Penny: No, thank you.
Anne: Hey Penny, you need to wear socks with those shoes.
Penny: No, thank you.
Anne: Hey Penny, eat those tomatoes.
Penny: No, thank you.
Anne: Where did you pick up no thank you? Where did you learn that?
How To Say No: Reactions To Saying No
Penny: I just wanted to say no thank you, and now it’s a habit of saying no thank you.
Anne: Well, you’re really good at it.
Penny: Yeah.
Anne: Well, you’re really good at it.
Penny: Yeah.
Anne: When you say no to other people, like maybe not me, but other people out of our house, how do they react?
Penny: Their, like, face looks like this. What? I don’t like …
Anne: What kind of what? Like they’re mad, or like surprised, or like whoa, what is that?
Penny: Like surprised. Like if like someone popped out and you didn’t know and you’re like, what?
Anne: They didn’t expect you to say that.
Penny: Yes.
Anne: Do you think they didn’t expect you to say no? Or do you think they didn’t expect you to say no so politely?
Penny: So politely, I think.
Anne: I can imagine you, when you’re dating, when you’re older, and a guy is like, hey, would you like to go to this movie? What’s a good way how to say no in that situation? And then you could just say …
Penny: No, thank you. Or, if I were like a teenager, I would say no, or no thank you. In a different, like sort of soft voice, I think.
Anne: I don’t think you have to worry about what your voice sounds like.
Penny: Yeah.
Anne: It’s the cutest voice ever. Do you have any more advice about saying no and why saying no is important?
Penny: Yes, so saying no is good and somehow kind of bad.
Good vs. Bad Types Of No
Penny: This is a good type of no. So you’re like, can you please um, um, sit on the couch with me? And then you’d be like, no, that’s a good no. But if you’re like eating vegetables and you’re like, I don’t want to eat those vegetables, no. And then your mom says eat your vegetables, and then you’re like no. And then you keep saying no, and then they’re like eat your vegetables, and then you push it away, and that’s like a bad no.
Anne: So basically you want to say no to things that are unhealthy for you or things that are arbitrary that you just don’t want to do for whatever reason. Do you know what arbitrary means?
Penny: Nope, not that much.
Anne: So arbitrary means like, there’s not a super good reason or like an important principle behind it. It just doesn’t matter. Like, it doesn’t matter if you wear a purple shirt or a red shirt.
Penny: Yeah, like if someone says, You should wear this one. And you’re like, no, I want to wear this shirt. And that would be a good no. So, yeah.
Anne: Because we want to say no to things that are unhealthy. That would hurt us.
Penny: Yes.
Anne: Also things that we just don’t want to do, and it’s arbitrary, it doesn’t matter.
Penny: Yeah, like if someone says, do you want some coffee or alcohol, then you could say, no, I don’t want that. That’s unhealthy.
Anne: Right, or you could just say.
Penny: No, thank you.
Anne: And then we need to say yes to healthy things.
Penny: Yeah, like if your mom says, eat your broccoli, and then you say, yes, that is a good thing.
Encouragement
Anne: So when we talk to women in the situation that the women who listen to this podcast. Just a tip from my eight year old daughter is to say no to unhealthy things. And things that you don’t want to do that are arbitrary. Then say yes to healthy things. And even some things that you might not want to do, but are the right thing to do. This also applies with how to set boundaries.
Penny: Yeah.
Anne: You just said yeah.
Penny: Yeah.
Anne: You didn’t say no.
Penny: Give me five. Guess what? There have only been two yeses in this podcast.
Anne: Really?
Penny: I saw the three yeses.
Anne: Well, thanks Penny for sharing your skill of saying no, thank you with everyone. This is an important part of teaching healthy intimacy.
Penny: Yeah, and I’m like, yeah, I know that I like to say no thank you.
Anne: Again, if the abuse has disconnected you from your inner voice and desires. Your hopes, your dreams. And what is the right thing to do? Check out The Betrayal Trauma RecoveryLiving Free Workshop.
Should Couples Stay Together After Infidelity? This Is What Some Husbands Said
Apr 11, 2023
Should couples stay together after infidelity? Here’s what some unfaithful husbands anonymously said. Their answers will shock you. Most unfaithful men use emotional abuse tactics to hide their infidelity. To discover if you’ve been experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test.
Transcript: Should Couples Stay Together After Infidelity?
Anne: It’s just me today. If you’re wondering, should couples stay together after infidelity? As you’re considering this question. Should I stay or should I go? If you’ve listened to this podcast, you’re educated about emotional and psychological abuse. If you’ve enrolled in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, you’ve been learning safety strategies.
Well, today I want to share with you what some men think of these concepts. These are men who ask the same question. Should I stay after I have cheated on my wife? They listened to this podcast or read the books I recommend. I don’t want them to listen to this podcast, I don’t want abusers listening. Don’t share this podcast with your husband, please, please, please.
Because your safety is my top priority, and it could put you in danger. So please do not do that. Do not share that you’re listening with them. But I can’t stop them from doing that. And then they either left a review on the podcast, or they left a review on Amazon, or they just wrote me an email. So I’m going to share with you their thoughts.
One guy wrote, I would like to take a moment to challenge your model. And then he’s extremely emotionally and psychologically abusive. He talks about how his ex-wife left him because of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Basically, he was like, Betrayal Trauma Recovery told her it wasn’t a marital issue, that it was an abuse issue, and that he was the abuser.
https://youtu.be/V-MIO0MkMrY
Blame & Gaslighting
Anne: And then he goes on to say he’s not, that she’s the abuser. He blamed her for the emotional abuse. She’s the one abusing him. Because this is why I don’t want you to give this podcast to your abuser. Then he uses all the language we use in the podcast to be emotionally abusive to her. He said, I wouldn’t tolerate the gaslighting, the blame shifting, and me being responsible for her reactions to “fair questions.” And then he said his wife is a diagnosed narcissist. And that we didn’t figure it out.
And he’s now trying to prove to me that she’s the one sick and that we ruined their marriage. Now this is interesting. If he listened to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, learned about abuse, and his wife was an actual diagnosed narcissist. This is rare for a narcissist to actually be diagnosed, because they resist going in for a diagnosis. But let’s just say that this is the case. Let’s take this at face value for a minute. Then wouldn’t he know that she’s the one that ruined the marriage?
I mean, he said, I would not tolerate the gaslighting, blame shifting, and me being responsible for her reactions to “fair questions,” right? So he’s describing an abuser. So, wouldn’t he blame her abuse? Why would he blame Betrayal Trauma Recovery? We just educate people about abuse. And, if he can now recognize abuse and knows that she’s abusive, he should say, like, she ruined our relationship due to her abusive behaviors.
If she was so abusive, he would have asked himself, what boundaries do I need to set? After her abuse, after her infidelity, after her blame and gaslighting should they stay together?
Irony In Abusers’ Complaints
Anne: The ironic thing about this letter is that he says if it weren’t for Betrayal Trauma Recovery, his marriage would be intact and everything would be alright. This message does not make sense. If he genuinely thought she was all these terrible things that he says in this message. Would he not thank Betrayal Trauma Recovery? For educating him about this type of emotional and psychological abuse?
In this guy’s case, if he thinks she’s abusive, terrible, and awful. Then Betrayal Trauma Recovery delivered him from this terrible relationship. So that would be another thing that he could thank BTR for. Because she learned about abuse, she got to safety, and now I no longer have to be around her narcissistic, terrible, awful, abusiveness, win-win. Why is he so upset that his ex wife, who is, in his mind, a terrible, awful, abusive, crazy person, separated herself from him?
It does not make sense. His last line in this message is, Please don’t sell them and their families short like you did us. And I’m like, from your description of your ex wife, you sound like you hate her. Why in the world would I feel bad about her divorcing you? I wouldn’t want any woman out there to be in a situation where her husband hated her guts and thought she was crazy. This is how you know when it’s time to leave. That is not fair for her.
And since your disdain for her is definitely coming through this letter that you sent me. No, I don’t feel bad that she decided to divorce you. Because you genuinely do not seem to like her in any way, shape, or form. That happens quite a bit at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Pro-Safety, Not Pro-Divorce: Staying Together After Infidelity
Anne: They write and say, you broke up my family. So you’re a bad person, which by the way, we’re not pro-divorce. pro-safety. As the woman recognizes, whoa, I’m enduring emotional and psychological harm. I need to get to safety. Then we get all the blame, like we’re man haters, we ruin families apparently. When I get a message like this, they also explain to me how terrible she is at the same time. So no abuser ever writes and says, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, you broke up my family.
And my wife is a wonderful, loving, caring, honest, loving person. And I’m so sad about it. She decided I was unhealthy and I don’t think I am. I think I’m pretty healthy. But she decided I wasn’t, and she’s such a good, smart person. I’m sad that she made that decision, and I love her so much, and I’m bummed. I never get messages like that! Never, ever, ever! They go like this, hey, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, you ruined my family.
My awful, abusive, psycho, crazy, terrible, damaging wife who was awful to me our whole marriage. She left me because of you, and it’s all your fault, and you’re breaking up families. And I’m like what? Like you don’t even sound like you like her, not even a little bit. Why are you trying to tell me that I had something to do with the breakup of your marriage, if you genuinely hate her? If she is all those things you’re saying, shouldn’t you thank me that you’re safe?
Abusers, if you are listening, stop writing me ridiculous messages about how your abusive, terrible, psycho wife left you because of me. Because that makes no sense, whatsoever.
One Star Review on Trauma Mama Husband Drama
Anne: I’m not sure if this is the same guy, but he wrote a one star review on Trauma Mama Husband Drama. If you listen to this podcast and love it, if you wouldn’t mind, go to Amazon, buy Trauma Mama Husband Drama, which is the best way to explain betrayal trauma, and then please give it a five star review to bury this. At the same time, I like the one star review because it proves the point. It’s like, wow, if this guy thinks this book is one star, then for sure, it’s five stars for me.
Also, he is not a verified purchaser, the guy that gave this review. So he doesn’t even own a copy of Trauma Mama Husband Drama. I’m not sure he knows what it’s about. Well, I know he doesn’t know what it’s about, because his review says a bunch of stuff that’s not even in the book. But he knows me well, because he hits the nail on the head. So his review is accurate. So that’s another reason why I wanted to read it.
He says, a valuable addition to the it’s not you, it’s him genre of self help literature. And then he says, also good for adults who are challenged by chapter books and books without a lot of pictures. So then he insults all of our intelligence as if we are completely stupid, and that’s why I wrote it. No, the reason why I wrote it was because this is very complex and most people don’t want to read a bunch of books and so it makes it really easy and it’s really obvious.
Ridiculous Reviews From Abusers
Anne: If it were so bad and so terrible, why would he be worried about warning people about it? Wouldn’t he be like, oh nobody’s gonna learn anything from this? Why would he be coming after me? He said, it’s telling that the author’s thoughts and ideas about the subject matter are communicated in a picture book. Yeah, because I wanted it to be very simple and obvious. And then he says, good versus evil.
Yes. I do think this is a good versus evil thing. So he hit the nail on the head there. It appears to be rooted in the author’s faith. True, but that’s not anywhere in the book. It’s very secular. I mean, the character in the book goes to church, but it’s not a religious book. There’s nothing overtly religious about it. And then he says my goal is to separate the wicked from the righteous. And that’s true, too. So, nailed it.
Then he says, leaving destroyed marriages and families in her wake. So he thinks they should stay together after HIS infidelity. So, this is someone whose wife recognized he was an abuser. And, decided I was the cause, rather than his abuse. I think it’s the same guy, but I’m not sure. He gave a one star review on the podcast, and he says abandon all hope who enter here. It’s very wordy.
But he goes on to talk about how the only purpose of Betrayal Trauma Recovery is that women who want to get a divorce for no reason come to BTR and then they can feel good about it. No, that’s not what’s happening.
Should Couples Stay Together After Infidelity? Misunderstanding BTR’s Mission
Anne: Women who find Betrayal Trauma Recovery are like, oh, I’ve been abused for years and didn’t know it. I need to get to safety. That’s it. That’s all we talk about. I’m not promoting divorce per se. I mean, some women decide they need to set a boundary of divorce to further separate themselves from harm. Yeah, that would be a natural response to abuse. Some women feel that remaining married is safer for whatever reason. And our coaches help women navigate that.
Anyway, he goes on about how the stance we take that abuse has nothing to do with the victim, and it’s not the victim’s fault. He’s like, no, women aren’t taking accountability for their part of the problem. And then he says Betrayal Trauma Recovery is anti-God. And this one’s interesting, because basically he says, if you women would just pray. Then God would change us, but you’re not praying enough. And that’s what caused the problems.
Like if you prayed more, then I would have changed. He says, “Being nice is described as love bombing.” Yeah, well, checking off boxes to exploit someone or deceive them, yes. Then he says, once you enter the Betrayal Trauma Recovery bunker. And become fully indoctrinated into this way of viewing relationships between men and women, your marriage will be over.
No, this is not, sorry. I do not view all relationships between men and women as an abuse issue. There are men who are not employing covert emotional abuse. We’re not talking about them. If your husband is healthy and you listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, you’re going to be like, wow, my husband’s not anything like this.
Educating About Abuse
Anne: Educating women about emotional and psychological abuse is not the issue. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not the issue. Your abuse is the issue. Here’s another one, and this one I love. I love this, sisters. This one is titled, Self Admitted Non-Expert. So he’s calling me a self admitted non-expert. And I would like to say to him, No, I am a self-proclaimed expert. That is what I am. I’m not a self-admitted non-expert. I’m a self-proclaimed expert.
And then he said, if you want counseling help, go to a counselor. And no, we don’t think women need therapy who are being abused. You might want to go to a therapist, but you’re not sick. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re not diseased. You might need skills to learn how to set boundaries, right? You might need to be educated about what abuse is. You will have a lot to consider if you should stay together after infidelity.
You might need some strategic ways to get to safety. While considering if you should stay together after betrayal. But I hope you’re not listening for counseling, because I’m not a counselor. And I don’t pretend to be, nor do I think I’m counseling anybody.
I’m just trying to educate people about abuse. And here’s another one that says uneducated advice is destroying families. He says his ex-wife got all messed up. And I’m like, again, your ex-wife felt like you were abusive, and that’s why she left. Your abuse destroyed your family. Not educating women about abuse.
I’ve highlighted abusive men’s response to women getting educated about abuse. Because when I talked to healthy men about abuse. They do not respond this way.
Expertise Through Experience
Anne: They’re like, whoa, one man I talked to, he was like, wait, wait, wait, you mean guys think their wives shouldn’t get upset. Like, of course they’re going to get upset. Who wouldn’t. Healthy men get it. It makes sense, abusers don’t. Rather than worrying about all the things they’re going to say. To weaponize and gaslight you out of recognizing that they are emotionally and psychologically unsafe. Take a deep breath and take a step back.
Look at our books page, read some books I did not write. These are just general abuse principles, basic information about what is emotional and psychological abuse. This kind of information can help you decide if you want to stay together after infidelity. This is not some weird, earth shattering, you know, stuff that I pulled out of the air and nobody’s ever talked about before. Like, this is basic stuff.
Now, many people don’t talk about pornography as an abuse issue. But when you look at all their behaviors, it’s stuff that domestic abuse experts have been educating us about for years. I have been trained in domestic abuse and certified. You don’t have to be an expert on abuse. The women who have been through it are the women who understand it. The women who have been through it are the most expert on what abuse is.
And that’s why our entire Betrayal Trauma Recovery team, every woman on our team, has been through it. That’s what makes a woman an expert on abuse. When you come into our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, women get it immediately. You don’t have to try and explain it. It makes sense. And women who have dealt with it for years and understand the stress and difficulty, they just get it. They are the best people to give you support.
Should I Stay With My Husaband After Infidelity? The Living Free Workshop
Anne: I hope no abusers are listening, but if they are, and I am offending you, great. Since I originally aired this episode, many of you emailed me and asked, is that my husband? Many, many, many of you, and one of you, it actually was. So if you’re listening and I haven’t messaged you about this, it’s not your husband. But everyone was surprised it sounded like their abusive husband. It’s incredible how similar they all sound.
Once you know what to look for, these patterns become obvious. This is why I wrote the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to help you anticipate what is going to happen next, to help you to see if you should stay together. In the Living Free Workshop, it’s just strategies and principles. It’s not going to tell you specifics, but it will help you learn to recognize it. And to learn more, click on the link above.
How To Help Your Daughter Avoid Teenage Abuse – Lucy’s Story
Apr 04, 2023
Mothers often ask, “How can I help my daughter avoid teenage abuse?” Lucy is on the BTR.ORG podcast, sharing her insights as a 19-year-old, new in the dating world, with helpful insights for mothers. In this interview, she shares her list of “red flags” that she made with the help of her mother. You can help your child avoid teenage abuse in relationships by having regular discussions about what red flags she can look out for in potential dating partners.
Some “Red Flags” you may want to discuss with your teen include:
Coercion, including coercion, that can include guilting, sulking, shaming, and subtly conditioning victims to participate in sexual activities.
Manipulation, lying, and gaslighting.
A preoccupation with their phone.
Any degree of violence, including harming objects or animals.
How to Help Abused Teens
Teens may find it easier to engage in healthy relationships and avoid teenage abuse when adults encourage them to focus on their own goals. Rather than spending time and energy seeking out dating opportunities, teens can use that time and energy to learn healthy habits and behaviors and develop a strong sense of self.
Your teenager needs help identifying the abuse, have them take our free emotional abuse quiz. This quiz will also teach them the 19 different types of emotional abuse. Teens, like all victims of abuse, deserve to be validated, not blamed. Parents can help teen victims by:
Developing a safety plan to make sure that the abuser no longer has access to them.
Validating the victim’s experience.
Reassuring the victim that they’re not at fault.
Allowing the victim to talk openly about their experience, without judgement or blame.
Transcript: How To Help Your Daughter Avoid Teenage Abuse
Anne: Lucy is on today’s episode. She is 19 years old. So Lucy’s mom is interested in betrayal trauma stuff and has been talking to her about this. And because Lucy is 19 and dating, she’s been thinking about teenage abuse, and teen dating violence in relation to her mother. We don’t often have 19 year old women on the podcast.
But we do have a lot of women who are in relationships that are covertly emotionally abusive and psychologically abusive, and they are concerned about their kids. So Lucy, as you’re dating, what red flags do you look for when you consider dating somebody?
Lucy: Yeah, I have, let’s see.
Red Flag 1: Lack of Deep Conversations
Lucy: I have ten written down, and the first one is if he can’t hold a deep conversation.
Red Flag 2: Phone Obsession
Lucy: Two, if he’s on his phone a lot when y’all are together instead of interacting with you.
Red Flag 3: Phone Privacy Issues
Lucy: Three, if he does not let you have his phone passcode and or freaks out when you go near his phone. Because that typically means he has something to hide. Some will say that’s a violation of his privacy. But oh my gosh, considering all the perversion, corruption, and trouble someone can get into on the internet. You better believe I’m going to need access to your phone.
And if we were in the same room right now, and you asked for my phone passcode, I would give it to you. Because I don’t think phones were made to be these little boxes of our hidden secret worlds. And I don’t know, if you don’t have anything to hide, I think you should share that.
Red Flag 4: Health Consciousness
Lucy: Number four, if he is not health conscious, if he does not eat well and or exercise.
Red Flag 5: Promises to Change
Lucy: Five, if the guy you’re into has issues and is claiming that he will change for you. It doesn’t, it never works out. Move on.
Red Flag 6: Handling Bad Days
Lucy: Number six, if he doesn’t respond well to you on your bad days. Does he manipulate the situation? Does he gaslight? Take note to how he reacts to your reactions.
Red Flag 7: Words vs. Actions
Lucy: Number seven, if his words don’t match his actions.
Red Flag 8: Aggressive Jealousy
Lucy: Number eight, aggressive jealousy.
Red Flag 9: Lack of Goals & Hobbies
Lucy: 9, he has no goals for himself, doesn’t believe in anything important, and or lacks healthy hobbies. And number 10.
Red Flag 10: Overdependence
Lucy: He’s overly dependent on you and doesn’t have other close relationships.
Anne: Those are really good. How have those helped you thus far?
Avoid Teenage Abuse: Focus On Your Own Goals
Lucy: Yeah, so actually I’ve never dated before.
Anne: You have not been able to implement your list yet.
Lucy: But also, I’m not looking to date right now either. Like, I’m not looking for a relationship. You know, I’m 19. I’m Pursuing my surfing, my music, and all this other stuff. So like in the defense of men, I’m not on the search for a relationship right now. Not that I, you know, don’t want that in the future, but I just don’t think that needs to be my priority right now.
Anne: I don’t know if it ever needs to be a priority. Yeah, and the reason I say that is because if you fill your own life with things that you love, and goals that you have. And someone comes along, and they are kind, they’re your friend, respectful, and all that. It would happen naturally. But actually seeking it out seems dangerous to me. Because it feels vulnerable when you’re trying to find something, when you feel like you’re lacking something. https://www.btr.org/husband-is-holding-me-back/
Because it’s very easy for someone to step into that place and say, oh, well, I can be that for you. They may or may not have those qualities. And so it’s a vulnerable place to try and go look for something. This may be a way your boyfriend or husband could hold you back. I think it’s much safer to live your own life, hold your head up and focus on your own goals.
Lucy: I agree with all that, yeah, 100%.
https://youtube.com/shorts/RAn_v3i6AvM
Red Flags To End A Relationship
Anne: Knowing you haven’t dated before, if that came about for you. Let’s just say you began dating. What red flags would make you end a relationship? While you’re avoiding teenage abuse. Are those same things on your list, or do you have other things?
Lucy: No, so the ones I just talked about and went over are more so ones that would make me put my guard up and maybe hold back a little bit. Things that I would just look out for. But not necessarily end it right there and then. Because you know, there are different situations and scenarios, as dating progresses. What red flags would I look out for? I’ve got five that I wrote down. I’ve got a lot of red flags.
Red Flag 1: Addictions & Mental Health
Lucy: So number one if he has addictions that are undealt with. And current, whether that’s alcohol addiction, pornography addiction, drug use or smoking or anything like that. And also an untreated mental illness, such as bipolar or a personality disorder or something like that.
Anne: So you may not know, right? They might have an addiction or personality disorder, or they might just be abusive and blame it on that stuff. This is what to look out for in narcissistic abuse.
Lucy: Yeah.
Anne: So that’s something to think about. That like, if somebody has a personality disorder or addiction, you might not find out about it for years or you may never find out about it.
Lucy: Yeah, even talking to other women who have dealt with a man with addictions. And talking to other women and people who know the signs. I think it is a good thing to do to ensure you see the signs of somebody with an addiction. Hearing from other people who have dealt with that.
Red Flag 2: Lack of Control
Lucy: And number two is that he does not have control over his sex drive. And this is like culture like, what? That’s impossible, you know what I mean? But, I believe pornography is one of the most devastating things ever hitting humanity. And I could go on and on about this topic alone. Genuinely, people’s lack of self control over their urges has caused more destruction in my life than anything else.
So if a man watches it or has a history of watching it and has not seriously addressed it and recovered from that, that is a deal breaker for me. Because I can’t have any more destruction in my life caused by that specific thing. So that is a huge one for me. It’s not popular but …
Anne: Talk about that. Because you’re on TikTok and a surfer. So you’re in your swimsuit, because that’s what you wear when you’re a surfer. And you’re 19 and super cute. So talk about what kind of pushback you get on TikTok for having that stance.
Lucy: Honestly, not a lot. I haven’t posted a lot on this specifically. One reason is because TikTok takes down videos that are too harsh or whatever, which is annoying. But the video I posted about dating and my standards, I honestly, got more positive comments than negative.
Red Flag 3: Toxic Relationships
Lucy: So number three, If a man remains in a toxic relationship with other people, such as friends, work partners, or family. And if he’s close to dangerous, narcissistic, abusive people. Because that always affects the people they’re close to. So, unless he has set very firm boundaries. To keep both him and the woman he’s interested in safe from that toxic, abusive person, that is also a deal breaker.
Lucy’s Influences and Teen Abuse Red Flag List Creation
Anne: Did your mom help you or are these things you just came up with? Talk about how you came up with these lists to avoid abuse.
Lucy: No, she didn’t help me write these specifically, as I was in my kitchen writing them down. But she and I have a lot of juicy conversations about all these types of stuff. So I feel like we kind of balance ideas off each other. So did she help me specifically write these down? No, but yes, she did absolutely impact my view on all this.
And she helped me and gave me ideas if I missed something. She said like, oh you should add this or that, and I was like, oh, you’re right. I have so much to say on this stuff. So it was pretty easy for me to come up with some juicy opinions.
Anne: I’m 45 when I was 19, my list was like, he’s cute. He is active in my church. He wants to have a good job. And he’s not abusive. That was about it. Just like a general, like, he’s not a jerk kind of stuff. But trying to figure out who was a jerk and who wasn’t a jerk was more difficult, because I didn’t understand gaslighting. I didn’t understand grooming, manipulation and all the other stuff.
It was easy to see who was an obvious jerk. It was harder to see, and it is for women of all ages. All the women listening to this podcast are like, yeah, it’s harder to see grooming when they have a goal. It’s almost impossible to view it for what it is unless you know what you’re looking for. And also that you give it time to observe and don’t listen to their words.
Differences Between A Nice Guy & A Good Guy
Lucy: You know, there’s a difference between a nice guy and a good guy. And I learned that a while ago. Sometimes a guy can act nice, but there are important aspects to a good guy that make him dateable and honestly marriage material.
Anne: My sister’s husband is a good guy. I respect him. He’s a good dad. He’s a good husband, but he doesn’t strike people anywhere as nice, but she married him at age 19.
Lucy: Yeah.
Anne: I’ve thought about that quite a bit. Like his top priority is his wife and his kids. And he’s not so worried about, you know, what people at church think of him or he’s nice at his job. I’m not saying he’s like a jerk, but image management and making sure people think he’s a good guy is not even on his radar.
Lucy: Yeah, I love that. And I know men like that. I can totally resonate with what you’re saying. Because I know a handful of good men who aren’t bubbly and huggy. But they’re actually genuinely good men behind closed doors and with their wives and family,
Anne: And for women in abusive relationships, it’s the opposite. They go out and their husband is nice. And everyone thinks he’s a great guy, but behind closed doors, things are off, and he might even be “nice” at home. But he’s lying and manipulating. So it doesn’t feel right, even if he’s not screaming and yelling or something like that. So you had a video go viral.
Avoid Teenage Abuse: Viral Video & Dating Standards
Anne: In that video, you shared why you aren’t willing to settle for less than you deserve in a partner. Why do you think that video went viral?
Lucy: I think my views on dating and my standards and boundaries are pretty drastic for this day and age. I think a lot of people hear my standards and opinions on dating, and they think I’m ridiculous. That I expect too much, and specifically expect too much out of boys and men. I think people are also thirsty for a new take and opinion on dating, because over 50 percent of marriages end in divorce.
That’s a scary statistic. I mean, that’s one out of two. I think clearly we’re doing something wrong. Because relationships don’t always work out, and it’s sad to see. So I think ultimately that video did well, because I think deep down, we all want that kind of relationship that lasts. And believe in that original plan for men and women to live wholly fulfilling lives. And I think deep down, all people want that.
So I don’t think people have high standards going into dating, and I think that sets them up for failure. I heard something once that said, if you don’t believe in anything, you fall for anything. And this is such a sexualized culture, I mean explicit material, masturbation, it’s all so normalized now.
And so to hear somebody talk about self control, it’s like, wait, what? That’s a thing? So yeah, I don’t think people think about it that much about standards and, like, going into it in a holy way.
Religious Standards
Anne: Are you religious?
Lucy: I am, yeah.
Anne: Christian?
Lucy: Yeah, I’m a Christian.
Anne: Do you feel like other Christians your age feel that way, or do they just talk the talk? But they don’t actually believe it, or what’s your thought about that?
Lucy: I think people in the Christian worlds and secular worlds are doing something wrong, too, unfortunately. And I think many Christians do talk the talk and not walk the walk, like you said, which is sad. Which makes teenage abuse more prevalent.
So culture’s gonna hate this one. My biggest piece of advice for that is, be very slow to be intimately involved. It is a very bonding act, and even just physical affection in general. I think it is really bonding, and when you’re discerning whether a man is a safe partner. I don’t think you need that kind of attachment getting in your way.
Anne: I totally agree. Those of us who have been in abusive relationships. I saw some red flags, I did not know how to process them. I wasn’t capable of saying like, oh, this is abuse. It was more like, oh, he’s grumpy and this is happening. It’s weird. And so I attributed it to stress.
I wasn’t capable of processing it correctly. Now, after enough time with him realizing, wait a minute. He’s still acting like this. So that must not have been the reason, right? Like it took me a long time to figure it out. So many women who listen to this podcast have been married for 10, 20, 30 years.
Avoid Teenage Abuse: It Is Hard To Figure Out Emotional & Psychological Abuse
Anne: Mine was seven. My ex actually was arrested before I figured out what was going on. And so knowing that you may get involved in an abusive relationship because these things are hard to process. Or they’re hard to understand, or perceive. It’s okay if you find yourself in this situation. It’s not okay for you. The abuse is not okay. I’m not trying to say, it’s okay to be abused. I’m trying to say, don’t blame yourself. Don’t feel bad, right?
Think, oh, now I can see this, now I can process this, and now I know what to do. Now I know I can just separate myself from this type of harm and get myself to safety. So it could be psychological, emotional, or coercion, whatever it is. But knowing that these things take time to discover, I married my ex five months after meeting him online. And I’d only known him two months in person. It seemed like a dream come true, and it was not.
But I also know of women who dated their abusive husbands for years, like a year or two, before they got married. And everything seemed okay, and then they married, and it wasn’t. So knowing that you could do everything you can and still might end up in an abusive situation. And that it’s still not your fault. It’s never your fault if you’re abused.
Lucy: Absolutely, yeah, you’re never in the wrong for somebody else abusing you. Absolutely, these are just tools to help. People hopefully avoid it. Some of these guys are master manipulators.
Taking The Time To Make Sure
Lucy: It’s scary, and I’m not above it. I’ve been manipulated. I’ve been lied to. And sometimes you just leave a relationship feeling like, how did I fall for that? You know, how was I so blind? And in the end, you’re never wrong for caring. You’re never wrong for wanting to believe the best in somebody. They broke your trust. They did you wrong. That’s on them always.
Anne: I got married when I was 31, so at that point I was like, I know I’m not going to marry an abuser. I thought I asked all the right questions. You can try to avoid abuse, but be unsuccessful.
And then when it turned out he was, I felt really stupid. I asked him about pornography. I asked about all the things, and I thought I was marrying a good guy. And then when I found out he wasn’t, I felt really dumb. But I was lied to and manipulated, and that was not my fault. However, had I taken more time and not been in such a hurry, I may have been able to see it a little more. So that is something to be said.
Lucy: Yeah, and that’s also why I think it’s important to check their phone histories, to have their passcodes. And to randomly check their internet access, because people lie. You cannot take the word of these people, because trust is built over the span of years, proving to you that they’re trustworthy.
The day and age where you can just take somebody’s word for it after a month of knowing them. Even if you feel like you trust them. People are so good at manipulating, and you have to be extra careful and go that extra step to make sure.
Avoid Teen Abuse: Advice For Parents
Anne: That probably was always the case. The 50, 45 and 70 year old women listening to this podcast. They also needed to know. I think it’s always been the case. Today, the thing that has exploded is their capacity to lie because of phones and devices.
They’re much more capable of carrying on a double life or having a secret basement with explicit material or affairs. It’s easier today than ever. They don’t have to slink out of the house at three o’clock in the morning to pick up a magazine at the triple X store. They can access it on their phones. That has changed. From your perspective, is there anything you think parents should know to help their children who are dating?
Lucy: I don’t have a lot to say on this. You know, as a person who’s not a parent, I don’t want to give advice that I’m not sure will work, but I will say this. If you have a child and they have a device with internet, a cell phone, computer, or a video game of some kind. You’ve gotta have the passcodes to their devices and check them regularly.
Because, like I said before, kids can get into so much trouble and live different lives that their parents have no idea about. So you need access to what they’re into. That’s just the way it’s got to be.
Anne: I’m so grateful that you’re sharing your thoughts with us. You’re living your best life. It’s exciting, I’m excited for you. It sounds like you’ve got a good foundation to deal with anything that comes your way.
Lucy: Thank you, yeah. Thanks so much. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me. This was so much fun.
Feel Off? When Your Gut Is Warning You
Mar 28, 2023
In marriage, many women feel off, meaning they feel like something is wrong, but they don’t know if what they’re sensing is real or just anxiety. Anne, Blythe, M.Ed, an expert in emotional and psychological abuse, sheds light on the murders of Angela Craig and Tausha Haight. And gives practical tips for how to listen to your gut and understand what it’s telling you.
If you relate and wonder if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz to determine if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse.
What Does It Mean To Feel Off?
“Feel off” means you think something isn’t right, but you’re not sure what it is. Sometimes you might have an idea of what’s wrong, but if there’s no proof, it’s hard to know if what you’re feeling is correct. Too often, society conditions women to dismiss feelings of uneasiness, fear, and concern with dismissive phrases like:
You’re holding on to the past.
You need to forgive.
You’re holding it over [your husband’s] head.
You need to move on.
You’re letting your anxiety get the better of you.
You aren’t allowing the atonement/grace/Christ/healing to work.
You’re imagining things.
You’re crazy.
Instead Of Dismissing Your Sense That Something Is Off, Consider…
Transcript: Feel Off? When Your Gut Is Warning You
Anne: It’s just me today. In marriage, many women feel off; meaning, they feel like something’s wrong, but they don’t know if what they’re sensing is real. I’m going to share two women’s stories today. Both are victims of emotional and psychological abuse that culminated in their abuser, murdering them. The first murder happened in Colorado.
Anne: The perpetrator is James Tulver Craig. He murdered his wife, Angela. James had multiple affairs with several women. He is a explicit content addict. And he’d drugged Angela five years previously. The first time he poisoned her, none of this is true. He said when he got caught poisoning her. And he had to come up with a “plausible reason” for doing it. He said the reason he poisoned her was because he was planning on suicide.
James Craig’s Manipulation & Lies
And he wanted her to sleep through it. And then he chickened out and didn’t commit suicide. So she experienced her husbands gaslighting and manipulation to believe he’d poisoned her because he was going to commit suicide. And he loved her so much that he didn’t want her to find him. But no, that wasn’t what happened. The first time he tried to murder her through poisoning her. And it didn’t work. She discovered it and went to the hospital.
So after this attempted murder, she does not realize it is an attempted murder. She does not feel off; meaning, she’s still living in the home with him, and they’re going to therapy. He’s doing pornography addiction recovery therapy. And five years later, he poisons her again.
This time it kills her. But not before she senses something is wrong. She doesn’t feel good. And she gets to the hospital. I went through all the police reports, including all his texts to his wife and members of his congregation. In fact, click here for a link to all this documentation. You can see them with your own eyes.
Gaslighting & Manipulation Tactics
Anne: I want to highlight the gaslighting he used to manipulate her and everyone else. Because this is happening to so many of our listeners. They find out their husband is having an affair, or soliciting prostitutes. He gives this reason. Oh, I’m an addict. Then he starts going to therapy or 12 step for and acts like he’s not doing it anymore. And she starts to go to 12 step for wives of addicts. And she feels like something is off, she’s still feeling uneasy.
She’s still feeling like something is not right. Rather than acknowledge that feeling might be about current things happening. Both the perpetrator and maybe a therapist or clergy or other people might say, oh, this is a trigger from what happened before. But it’s not currently happening. I was doing that before. And now I’m a changed person. When they are still doing it now.
The reason women feel uneasy and get “triggered” is that they still experience deception, manipulation, emotional and psychological abuse. It is not about the past. Alright, a friend in their congregation says, which hospital is Angela at? Do you need anything? To the man who murdered her, her husband. And he says, Parker Adventist, thanks for offering. But for now, I think we’ve got more support than we can handle. Got to love the church.
And then the friend from the ward. This is a congregation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, says, do they have a diagnosis yet? And he says, no diagnosis. And she’s like, I’m so sorry. We’re all praying for her. And then he says, thank you. And then she says any news, nothing yet. They just admitted her to the hospital for overnight observation.
The Deceptive Husband’s Texts: When Something Just Feels Off
Anne: Now he has poisoned her. So he knows exactly why she’s in the hospital. He knows exactly what’s wrong. He could have said, hey, I poisoned my wife. This is what’s going on with her. And maybe they could have saved her life. But he’s acting like he has no idea. The neighbor texts the next day. How did Ange do overnight? The murderer says, low blood pressure all night, vomiting in the morning. Still trying to figure this out.
The neighbor says, I’m so sorry. Tell her we love her. And he says, I sure will, thank you. Later, again, the neighbor asks how’s she doing? Do you need anything? The neighbor does feel like something is off, meaning she’s concerned. The murderer says, thanks, Michelle. It’s been pretty rough, not having any answers. I’m getting pretty nervous. They did so many tests. They have done four or five different blood draws. The regular blood panels all came back okay.
And she is negative for autoimmune disorders, negative for diabetes, for a one C blah, blah, blah. They seem concerned right now about blood pressure. He keeps going on and on. And again, if you want to read his text messages to his neighbors and other people, I’ve linked to the police report with the texts in the police report above.
And later he says, if it wasn’t my wife, this would be a fun puzzle to try and work out. He says that to the neighbor. If it wasn’t my wife, this would be kind of a fun puzzle to try to work out. And then he says, “I’m surprised they haven’t figured it out yet.” So he’s gaslighting the neighbor. He sounds like a caring, loving husband.
The Importance Of Trusting Your Gut
Anne: One of the most psychologically abusive messages in the entire police report is one he sent to his wife. Because she hasn’t been educated, and this is not her fault about what to do when she may feel off but does not know what to do. She does what most victims do. She reaches out to him for clarification. In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. I tell you how to do this in the most effective way so that you can really see what is going on.
She knows he poisoned her before, but due to his manipulation, she can’t see his true character or his true intentions. I mean physically, obviously she feels terrible, but she’s also feeling something else. So her message to him, trying to figure out why something feels off, she says, I feel drugged.
She texts him this, and then this is what he writes back. I want to share this main message with everybody. So everybody listen, because this might sound like what your husband or ex is saying right now. And if you’re saying something like this, but you feel unsafe, you feel like something’s not right emotionally and psychologically, you feel like something is off.
I don’t want you to discount it, thinking it’s just trauma that you haven’t healed from yet, and the danger was in the past. It’s likely the danger is still current. The emotional and psychological danger is still current. So she says, I feel drugged. And he says, given our history, I know that must be triggering. Just for the record, I didn’t drug you. I’m super worried though. You looked pale before you left.
Listen To Your Sacred Internal Warning System
Anne: So if you feel uneasy, if you’re thinking, I think my husband’s using pornography again, and you say, hey, are you using it? And he says, no, but given our history, I understand why you might feel triggered. I want you to consider that he’s just saying that and currently uses it. That he is lying. I’m not saying everyone’s husband is poisoning them. That’s not what I’m saying. What I am saying is you need to listen to your sacred internal warning system.
Don’t let clergy or therapists, your husband or anybody else, tell you that the uneasy feeling you are feeling is due to something that happened two years ago. When you found out about his pornography. And as you approach him and say, hey, are you using pornography again? And he’s saying no, but I bet you feel triggered because of what happened in the past. If your internal warning system is going off, if the spirit is talking to you. Or if you’re not religious, get really quiet with yourself.
And trust your gut. If you’re a prayer, pray. Ask God to reveal to you the truth of what is currently happening. Please, please, please do not think it must be left over from a year ago. I think one thing is being gaslit by therapists, clergy, and your husband. Is it just the trauma that you’re still feeling? I hope you can heal. I’ve been praying for you. I’m worried about you, and maybe you need therapy because I’m awesome. I’m doing great. There’s nothing wrong with me.
He Poisoned You Before, Trust Your Gut
Anne: But you’re still healing from when you found out that I lied to you two years ago, but I’m telling you the truth now. Like, no! No, no, if he lied to you two years ago and you feel off, the likelihood that he’s lying to you now is off the charts. So please, please, please listen to that and get to emotional and psychological safety, whatever that means for you.
Now, after this exchange with his wife and the deceitful manipulative messages, he’s sending the congregation. She dies in the hospital. In the meantime. His dental partner, he’s a dentist. This is another dentist that works with him, found poison in their dental office. And this other dentist has been talking to people and also talking to the police about what he found. So the murderer sends this other dentist. An extremely long message.
He says, good morning. Thank you for taking my patient load today. I want to make an urgent plea to you. If we were ever friends, please do this favor for me. Please don’t talk to anyone about what we talked about last night, including any law enforcement officers. You are under no obligation to answer their questions unless you are served a subpoena. And you will do more damage than good to my family by continuing to insert yourself into this. Angela is gone and I am devastated.
Yeah right, I mean, he killed her. There is nothing that can bring her back, and I want to tell you of the details. So you can better understand what’s gone on behind the scenes with her. As if it’s her fault, like she’s been such a problem.
His Plea To His Dental Partner
Anne: There is so much that you don’t know that I wish you did. If you knew everything, this would make so much sense to you, but there’s no use in telling you right now. He then basically blames this guy for the trouble the kids had with seeing their mom pass away, which is insane. The dental partner did feel off; meaning, he told about the poison.
Then he says, I understand why you did what you did, I do. I get it, but if you had come to me personally, man to man. Instead of talking to everyone else about what you thought you knew. I might have let you know some details that would have made you less likely to cause this horrible storm. If you had only put me higher on your list of priorities, instead of putting everyone else’s opinions and gossip ahead of me.
This message is super, super long. I wanted to read this to you, because when I created the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. I used five different abusers’ messages, and they sound exactly like this. And this might sound like your husband or ex. This is emotional and psychological abuse. This is what it sounds like.
No, of course, he never did tell the other dentist his “side of the story.” He had no other side of the story. You need to know the truth, was just lies. Let’s just suppose he talked to him and told his dental partner his side of the story. This is what his side of the story would sound like. My wife is crazy, and she has emotional problems. She’s the one who sent all that poison to the dental office, because she was thinking about suicide.
The Second Case: Michael Haight
Anne: He would have continued to lie and gaslight. If your ex sounds like this, your situation is extremely emotionally and psychologically dangerous. Especially if therapists, couple therapists, or clergy don’t recognize this as emotional and psychological abuse. That’s what it sounds like.
All right now, I want to talk about the murder in Enoch, Utah. In both of these situations, the murderer and the victim and their children were people who share my faith. So these murders were shocking for my community. The next murderer is named Michael Haight. He killed his wife and his five children, and also his mother-in-law. It was horrific and awful because. So many people in that small community have described this guy as a good guy. He went to church.
Tasha had been trying to get help for years. Because she felt off, she’d gone to her Bishop. She had talked to therapists, she’d done everything she could to get help. Her daughter had even filed a police report. He had strangled her, and the police did nothing. Finally, Tasha decided to file for divorce. When they found his suicide note, that explained apparently his reasoning. For why he murdered his wife and five kids and his mother-in-law.
He called himself an honorable, good man, and then he blamed his wife for their family troubles.
Feeling Off Means This Man Is Dangerous
Anne: He said, and this is absolute bull. This isn’t true. He murders his wife, and he’s going to commit suicide. He decides I will write a note to explain to everyone that I’m a good guy and that she was terrible. That’s going to be the last word on this. And he probably thinks people will believe it. Of course some people did. That’s the thing that’s so shocking to me. If anybody reads this article, and they think, oh, maybe he’s right. No, he is lying.
So he says, I’m an honorable good man. I would rather rot in hell than put up with another day of this manipulation and control over me. He said, this is nonsense, and I can’t handle it for one more day. I will not be a burden on society. I kept asking for help, and you wouldn’t listen. So let’s talk about the psychology of abusive, exploitative men. They literally think they’re being oppressed.
When the person they think they’re entitled to exploit, their wife. She blocks him from his ability to exploit her, she feeling off means she’s not sure. So an abusive man thinks his wife owes him sex, doing the laundry. She owes him whatever he imagines in his mind, she owes him. And if she’s not going to do that, and not going to give me sex. Even if I yell and scream at her and lie. If she’s going to call me out, even though I’m completely doing wrong things. I’m being oppressed.
Equality to them feels like oppression. They only feel equal when they oppress their victims. This is how abusers feel. In this case, he decided to murder her, and that’s why they do. They think I’m going to be oppressed my whole life.
Reputation & Appearances
Anne: Victims, on the other hand, are being oppressed, and we’re trying to get to safety. If you hear that kind of messaging from your abuser, your current husband or ex husband, know he has that exploitative mindset. He’s feeling like having to be accountable, responsible, or equal to you feels like oppression. Having to tell the truth, having you call him out on the truth, feels like oppression. And that is why most abusers tell other people they’re being abused and they’re not.
Understanding how these guys’ minds work is really important. One other part of this case that is relevant to you is that reputation was important to him. So he wanted to make sure everybody thought he was a good guy. Tasha Haight told her attorney that her husband had sold his Allstate Company. But conversely, several other friends and neighbors said Michael Haight was recently fired from Allstate and was going to start his own insurance company.
Either his wife did not know, or she felt it was safer to say that, I’m not sure. A friend of the murderer said the murderer had asked him to sign a non-disclosure agreement. About the fact that he was fired from Allstate because of impropriety in his books. So, he was also fired for being dishonest about the financial situation. And the police report reads, the suspect was worried about his appearance in every way.
He would do anything to portray a perfect life, both personally and professionally. One neighbor who frequently spent time with Tasha Haight said she had confided in her. Michael Haight was concerned about keeping up appearances, and had been mean to her for a long time.
The Danger Of Emotional & Psychological Abuse
Anne: She feelt off, because he was abusive, and that the abuse extended to the children. No known physical abuse to Tasha herself that I have seen. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but the daughter had definitely been physically abused. So keeping up appearances and wanting people to think they have some inside scoop on why they’re doing it is also a concern. So if you’re seeing that type of emotional and psychological abuse, it is also dangerous to you.
When I say, even without the physical abuse, these women were murdered. But even if they weren’t murdered, let’s pretend it wasn’t ever physical. That type of emotional and psychological abuse is extremely dangerous to your heart, soul, psyche, mind, brain and personhood. It is emotionally and psychologically violent. So please, as you’re listening to this, think about some of those cues saying, Oh, you’re triggered. I’m so sorry. What can I do to help? You know, that kind of stuff.
When you think something’s wrong, trust your gut. Also, if you hear your abuser talking about how you are abusing him due to your desire for truth, justice, equality, and he’s feeling oppressed, like, no, no, no, no. In fact, he was manipulative beyond the grave, because when his family posted his obituary. They had the gall to write that he was such a great guy and a loving father. I’m proud of the people of Utah, because there was so much outcry that they removed the obituary.
But that’s how manipulative he was to his own family. They thought It was her fault and that he was a good guy.
When You Feel Off: Recognizing Exploitation & Oppression
Anne: That anyone in society would think that it’s appropriate for a man to feel oppressed. Because he has to do equal childcare, house or household tasks. Or answer his wife’s questions about where he is and what he’s doing. No one is oppressing him. He wants to exploit you. One of the things I’ve learned through this is that physical abuse does not just happen out of nowhere. These women’s murderers emotionally and psychologically abused them before the murders.
I mean, Tasha Haight knew she was physically unsafe. She did feel off, meaning she was afraid. And Angela knew he poisoned her. He severely emotionally and psychologically abused her, not because she’s stupid. She didn’t understand what was happening, and Angela stayed with her husband. So please consider emotional and psychological abuse as a serious, safety concern.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop will teach you strategies to see the truth. And then know what to do in a strategic way. In Angela’s case, reaching out to him for clarification didn’t help her. When she reached out for clarification. He wrote back more emotional and psychological abuse. So knowing the strategies is important. Especially, because it could be a lot more dangerous than you imagine.
Real Life Sex Trafficking Examples – The Best Way To Protect
Mar 21, 2023
Sex trafficking examples often involve children being kidnapped and taken across national borders. But what if the most common sex trafficking examples are closer to home?
A husband filming his wife in the shower without her knowledge or consent, and selling the video online.
A boyfriend coercing his seventeen-year-old girlfriend for photos.
A man prostituting his long-time partner, then gaslighting her into feeling guilt and shame so that she feels unable to escape or press charges.
All trafficking includes emotional abuse. To see if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
What Does A Trafficking Example Look Like?
It’s a depraved trap of psychological, emotional, sexual, and physical coercion and abuse. It’s the disempowerment of women and children. And it’s all around us. There are countless trafficking examples.
Dr. Stephany Powell from NCOSE is on The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast with Anne Blythe M.Ed. to cover when a husband is the perpetrator. And give trafficking examples.
If you discover your husband is participating in trafficking by using pornography, attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today.
Trafficking: Force, Fraud, Coercion
Coercion can include:
Threats (subtle or overt)
Gaslighting
Blame-shifting
Manipulation
Emotional withholding
Financial abuse
Spiritual abuse
Blackmail
Abusive persistence
Transcript: Real Life Trafficking Examples
Anne: I have Dr. Stephanie Powell on today’s episode. She is Vice President and Director of Law Enforcement Training and Survivor Services at the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. Dr. Powell gained insight into exploitation and trafficking through her 30 years with the Los Angeles Police Department, coupled with her passion for education and her heart for community.
She’s an incredible leader who uses her considerable skills and insight to educate the community about the complex and often misunderstood world of trafficking. And to create positive change for victims. She’s a powerful speaker, tenacious educator, advocate for change, and one of the premier experts in this field. She’s been featured on CNN, HLN, and local media in the Los Angeles area. We will be talking about trafficking examples. Welcome, Dr. Powell.
Dr. Powell: Yes, thank you so much for having me.
Anne: On social media, we saw a post from Fight the New Drug, where you talked about how trafficking is not only when victims are held against their will, and a lot of people don’t understand that. So can you start with the definition of trafficking?
Dr. Powell: Well, when we talk about trafficking, it needs to be understood that when you’re under the age of 18, and someone has used you for commercial s**, that by age alone, you’re automatically considered a victim of trafficking.
In a court of law, if you’re over 18 years of age, you have to prove fraud or coercion. I think what happens oftentimes is that people only think of trafficking victims with the force and the fraud, because sometimes that coercion piece is a little hard to understand because people go, well, why didn’t they just leave?
Emotional Bonds In Trafficking
Dr. Powell: What needs to be understood is that there is an emotional bond that one may have with their trafficker. So that emotional bond may be because their trafficker was a boyfriend or family member. It’s like brainwashing. I’m coercing you because if you leave, something bad will happen to somebody you love. And by the way, this is your fault anyway, because you chose to do this. So that’s what human trafficking looks like.
Someone can enter at the age of 11 or 12, but someone can also enter at the age of 21. It’s not so much where people will think it only happens with children. It happens with adults.
Anne: When you say any commercial act of someone younger than 18, that age automatically says this is a victim of trafficking. Could that be perhaps a boyfriend and a girlfriend? Let’s say they’re 17. Let’s say he’s got a camera, and then he records her and posts it online without her knowledge. Under any circumstances, if she’s under 18, is that a commercial trafficking example?
Dr. Powell: It could be considered a commercial act if they’re getting money by the posting, but by the mere posting of itself and they’re under the age of 18, you’re looking at CSAM.
Anne: Right, child abuse material.
Dr. Powell: Yes.
Anne: So do you find that some children under 18 unknowingly participate in trafficking? They don’t realize what is going on?
Dr. Powell: Yes, under the age of 18, they could be unknowingly participating in, CSAM.
The Dangers Of Sharing Images
Dr. Powell: So that’s why when I talk to teenagers, I tell them, if you’re sharing pictures that you wouldn’t want to share with your grandmother, once you push send, you don’t have any control over that picture. The person who told you they would not share it with anybody else could possibly share it with somebody else. So unfortunately, that image has gone viral.
Anne: And they can also post it without your consent or without your permission anywhere online for non commercial or commercial purposes.
Dr. Powell: Exactly. And then the scary part is that once it goes to one source, other sources can scrape it off, and that’s how it ends up going viral. The image could now be on different social media sites.
Anne: In several cases, I’ve heard of women who are married and their husband records them without their knowledge. And they don’t find this out for sometimes years. Then they also find out that he has been posting these videos of them perhaps in their bedrooms or in their shower online for profit. She has been trafficked in her own home by her own husband. Can you talk more about why this is one of the trafficking examples and why it’s so dangerous for women?
Dr. Powell: That photo or video has been used for commercial acts and exploitation. Unfortunately, women may blame themselves. If only I had known. Really, understanding that it’s not your fault. You’ve been exploited. Someone took advantage of you. The worst part, it was somebody they trusted. When it’s somebody you trusted that used you in that way.
Victim Blaming & Self-Worth In Trafficking
Dr. Powell: It’s no different than a victim of trafficking dealing with a trafficker or a pimp. Because many times those women, it was their boyfriend that pimped them out, they got talked into it. The bottom line is, it could make one feel worthless. What I want to say to them is, you did what you were supposed to do. You trusted the person closest to you. You were a wife. And this is no fault of your own. It is something they did. Meaning the husband, that shouldn’t have been done.
Anne: In your experience with the LAPD, did you ever see any cases like this? And if you did, what types of legal ramifications were there for victims when their husband was the trafficker?
Dr. Powell: I have had cases where the husband was the trafficker and he was pimping out his wife.
Anne: Did it make it harder to prosecute when she was married to him? Were there complications due to the relationship?
Dr. Powell: When it is a husband or a boyfriend, there is an emotional bond. Because of that emotional bond, oftentimes women did not want to testify. It’s no different than when you’re dealing with domestic violence. Where they felt that what their husband did to them was wrong. But they don’t want to see them go to jail. They don’t want to see them punished.
And the woman ends up taking the hit, meaning I will sacrifice myself. I’ll just deal with my own pain internally, but I don’t want to see anything happen to him.
Anne: At least from the women I’ve observed, they wonder if he can get better or get treatment and not be that way anymore.
Exploitation & Emotional Manipulation
Anne: So in testifying against it, or even taking the evidence to authorities to have him charged. They don’t want to do that just in case he’s going to get better. Then they can stay married, and their family can stay together. For you feel love toward him. But for him, it was an opportunity to exploit you, and he’s been exploiting you in that way and probably a bunch of other ways.
Perhaps you should consider it an opportunity for exploitation. And maybe talk about what exploitation is in these trafficking examples.
Dr. Powell: In this circumstance, the exploitation is that somebody took videos without someone’s knowledge and exploited them by benefiting from it financially. Or share it for comments or whatever it may be. It’s using an individual. Sure, there are women who do not want to see that person go to jail, because they think they might get better. And we’ve all been through something.
It may not be that, but as women, we’ve been through something where we stay with a person and think they’re going to get better.
Anne: Yeah, an example I’ve been using lately is the idea of someone with a severe contagious disease, like Ebola . They’re saying, I want to be in close proximity to you, because I want to ensure that our family stays together. You would be like, you need to stay away from me, because if you’re close to me, I could get this infectious disease. I will interact with you again when you are completely healed and there’s no danger.
The Importance Of Self-Preservation
Anne: Can he get better? That isn’t the question that I think victims should ask or survivors should ask. With Ebola, are they currently safe enough to be in close proximity? Is this person non contagious right now? Not, can they get better? If they’re telling you all the right things, and doing all the right things to groom you and exploit you. That is dangerous for women in these trafficking examples.
Dr. Powell: With the Ebola example, it’s not him telling you I’m safe. The idea of it’s safe, not coming from the person who’s infected, because that’s the same person that says, I won’t do this again. And then they do it again. Sometimes we don’t want to hear this, but you got to look out for yourself.
I think we’re taught as women that unconditional love is important to be a wife. You always put your husband first. We got to reserve a little bit of ourself for ourselves. I can’t give you everything and then have nothing of my own.
Anne: Acknowledging that it is your life. It’s your life. Your life is not actually about him. It’s about yourself. And if you choose to share it with him, that’s fine, but you don’t owe him anything. It’s not like your two circulatory systems are combined, and if you get some physical distance from this person, he’s going to drop dead. You are your own person, and this is your life. If you choose to share it with him, it does not necessarily mean he’s become part of you, even though it feels like it.
Recognizing Manipulation & Grooming In Trafficking
Anne: Especially when women separate, and me included, it seemed like I was cutting my own leg off. It felt awful, but I did survive. My circulatory system was not combined with his. You’re the only person who will advocate for your life the way you will, because you’re the only person whose life it is. Especially when your life could be one of the trafficking examples.
Dr. Powell: Yeah, absolutely. At the end of the day, you are all that you have. And if you give everything of yourself to a person, when that person walks out the door, they have taken all of you with them. And if you don’t have enough of you to get strength, it’s going to be devastating. I’m not coming from a standpoint of, this is easy. It’s not easy. And it goes back to, you did what you were supposed to do.
In terms of loving and trusting someone you wanted to spend your life with. You did your part. They didn’t do their part. And understanding that, what I think is important, ladies, is you are the prize. Thank you, they messed up, they tried to crush the prize, so at the end of the day, even though you may feel it’s your loss. It really is their loss. And you probably won’t feel this way at first. But you’re going to be fine, because you kept you intact.
In terms of my experience when I first ran my vice unit. I thought when I saw the women walking up and down the street, I assumed they were there because they wanted to be there.
The Reality Of Exploitation
Dr. Powell: But when I started working with them, not only in my law enforcement end. But in the advocate end of it, I quickly learned. These women were doing it because, and I’m going to talk about the ones who felt they had a relationship, because I think people can understand this. I’m talking about the ones who, it was their husbands or their boyfriends. They were in love with them and bought into, I’m doing this for them. I’m doing it for us. They’re in love.
That’s one lesson I learned. Love is a strong emotion that can get people to do almost anything. And we always hear these stories. But it’s so true. Not everybody out there is out there because they choose to be out there in and of itself. You choose to be out there when you don’t have any other choice. But some of them were in love with these guys because they had lost themselves.
In that other person. And so when you see it from that view, it helps you understand from the lens of a woman where there’s that commonality. If you’ve ever been in love and burnt. So I learned that these women were no different from me. We may have made other choices, but when it came to falling in love with the wrong person, they were no different than me.
Anne: They were in that situation due to marital coercion. Through no fault of their own, through thinking they were doing something for their spouse or their boyfriend. Can you talk about the logic of that? Was it like they needed money? And so he was like, this is a good way for us to get money, babe in these trafficking examples?
The Grooming Process
Anne: If you do this, we can earn enough money to buy a house, for me, that doesn’t seem super logical. Could you help put together the pieces of how they would coerce them into thinking that? Being exploited and physically putting themselves in danger, having it with multiple people for money, what would be of benefit to her.
Dr. Powell: It doesn’t start like that. There’s a grooming process in it, making that person fall in love with them first. A pimp once said, when he meets a girl, he’ll find a weakness. If he can’t find a weakness, he will create one. So, finding that weakness may be that you need someone to tell you that you’re pretty. Or you need to be in a relationship. There’s everything you need. Until, it goes sideways. So they have them fall in love with them first.
And then they broach the idea of, I’ve given you all these things, now I’m running out of money, if you could just do this one time for us. Then that one time becomes two times, it’s not because they want to have it with all these men. It’s because now they’re in a position where they don’t want that man to leave them. Or if they leave them, that’s what I was talking about, resources. They don’t have anything else, no family, no education and no job.
All being in the name of love. I would assume the same woman who knows their husband watches exploitative material, and think, eh, I don’t like it. That’s what he does. No harm, no foul until he starts taking pictures of her and uploading it. And she is one of the trafficking examples.
Manipulation In Relationships: Trafficking Examples
Dr. Powell: He doesn’t start that way for the most part. It’s that manipulation of gaining trust. Here’s a good example: that guy we fall in love with, and your mother, your family members, and sisters say he’s not the one. And we will argue all the reasons why he’s the one. Until we figure out that he’s not, and then the question becomes, now is it too late? So if you can understand that, you can understand this.
Anne: The grooming is important, because in these trafficking examples, that was the trafficker’s intention the entire time. He wanted her to fall in love with him, so that she would be loyal, so that she would be willing to do what he wanted. So that he could exploit her. In that case, her thinking, okay, I’m doing this for us. She does not realize that. It’s never been about “us.” But the grooming occurred to exploit her, and that is how it has always been.
There’s never going to be a time when you earned “enough money” to purchase that car for us. Then he says, Oh, great, I appreciate it. Now that we have our car, we can get decent upstanding jobs. I will go to school, we’ll move into a house with a white picket fence. You never have to do that again. That’s not the end goal they have. She’s chasing peace and being settled, but never getting there. Because that’s not his goal. In these trafficking examples, their goal is to make money.
Dr. Powell: Yeah, can you imagine how hurtful that could be? Or, if we’re talking about the situation that maybe some of your listeners are in, when he gets caught. Because he’s uploaded a video.
The Pain Of Realization
Dr. Powell: Then he tells you I’m not going to do it again. You hope and pray that he doesn’t, and you believe him. But when he tells you that he knows he’s going to do it again. He just doesn’t want you to leave, because there might be kids or he might lose half his pension. But he knew when he told you he’s not going to do it again, that he’s going to do it again. He just doesn’t want you to leave.
Anne: Because if you leave, he cannot exploit you anymore.
Dr. Powell: Absolutely.
Anne: Because he groomed you to exploit you in the first place. He’s not going to want you to leave, because then he’ll lose access to exploiting you. From my point of view, and I did this, so this is common. I want all the women listening who have done this, because I’m pretty sure everyone has, to not feel bad.
When I say this, please take a deep breath and be like, okay, this is what everyone has done. To recognize the things happening and be concerned about it. And then take this list of, hey, it’s not okay that you use exploitative material. I feel uncomfortable when you scream in my face. I feel uncomfortable that you leave for periods of time, and I’m not sure where you’re going.
And give their abuser a list. What I have seen is that he is like, thank you. I did not know where the loopholes were, didn’t understand where I was not grooming well enough. I appreciate you giving me this list, because now I can groom you by making sure I tell you where I’m going.
Safety & Observation
Anne: Even though I’m lying, I can make sure you never find out I use exploitative material. It’s basically a list of how to groom me. So when I talk to victims, one of my thoughts is always to say safety is the top priority. Give yourself emotional and psychological space, and observe from a safe distance to see what he’s doing. So we don’t end up as one of the sex trafficking examples.
But you don’t need to tell him. You don’t need to say, hey, I saw you doing this. I’d like you to stop, because then he’d be like, oh, I didn’t realize my mask was cracked. I’m going to make sure to put some super glue right there. So she can’t see through it, but he’s going to continue doing the same things behind the mask.
Dr. Powell: The interesting thing about that is that at the time those conversations are happening, he may not realize what he’s learning. Until he starts to use it, because he knows you so well in the universal you. What’s also interesting about that is aren’t we taught in terms of being in relationships with others that we’re supposed to communicate? It’s almost like a gamble.
I know I’m supposed to communicate. I know I’m supposed to say that when you do this, this hurts me. In the hopes that because I’ve told you, you won’t do it anymore. Not that you’re going to bank it and put it in your toolkit for grooming purposes. So I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier, because we can’t go around life not communicating and then expecting to be in a good relationship, right?
trafficking is A Male-Dominated crime
Dr. Powell: So even though I’ve told you that when you do such and such, this hurts me. Now I see that you have now used that against me. I can say, okay, I gave you that information. You used it against me. So that means I need to go. Realizing that regardless of whether we have someone in our life or don’t, we’re going to be okay.
When I was in law enforcement, I came on when there weren’t that many females. And there were a lot of obstacles. But I had this saying on my desk that I actually heard from Oprah Winfrey. It is, what you say about me is none of my business. What you say about me is none of my business. In other words, I can’t invest in that negativity.
Anne: You worked your way up and became a leader in the LAPD, I would love to hear what you learned as a woman in that environment. Would you mind sharing the ways that you built up your own confidence in the face of men who didn’t think you deserved to be there?
Dr. Powell: With the Los Angeles Police Department, I joined in 1983, and there weren’t that many women. I was an African American woman, so I was often told I had two strikes against me. I’ll never forget the day I walked into my first police station, and one of the training officers looked at me and he says, you have three strikes against you. You’re black, you’re female, and you’re short.
Overcoming Obstacles In The LAPD
Dr. Powell: And the first thing that popped in my head was, and I said this to him, wow, those are three things I can’t do anything about, but I’m here. Keep in mind, I was like 25 years old. What it taught me was that I can’t do anything about what you think. All I can do is be the best I can be.
What I also realize is that they were afraid of me being female and short. That I would not be able to handle myself in the field dealing with bad guys, and I wouldn’t be able to protect them. And so once I proved that, the issues started to diminish a little bit, but every time I went to another station, it would be the same thing. You know, society has taught us as women that we may not be smart enough or we’re too little. We’re too frail, it’s just like we’re never enough.
And that’s why I keep saying that we have to tell ourselves and our daughters that we are enough. Someone else doesn’t determine whether you are enough. You’ve got to realize that you are enough. And walk into that room with confidence, if it’s a man who wants an equal partnership and wants somebody confident and not afraid of your confidence. That’s what you want. Not someone who’s figuring out a way to manipulate you, and use you for trafficking.
You know, another thing that I also realize is that sometimes people will stand on top of you to make them taller. And if that’s the case, you need not be that footstool.
Exploitation & Manipulation
Anne: Isn’t that, in a nutshell, the definition of exploitation, using someone else for your own gain? You’re not so concerned about them, but you’re just trying to use them.
Dr. Powell: Absolutely, standing on top of them to make you better. If this has happened to you, it doesn’t mean you weren’t smart enough. You should have seen it. Don’t blame yourself. It’s not because you’re dumb. If anything, it was because you were open enough and vulnerable enough.
And you loved enough that happened. So it’s not you. It’s the person who is doing the manipulating. They’re at fault, not you. So stay who you are. Just know that not everybody deserves your love and openness.
Anne: And you don’t owe it to them either. I mean, many men will give women the impression that because you’re a woman, you owe it to society, to men, to be “nice.” Or to act or look a certain way. This happens in narcissistic abuse in marriage. I had a man tell me, you’re too cute to be single. And I was like, so my cuteness is for men, apparently? It’s not just for me? So apparently you have to be owned or on someone’s arm to make your cuteness worthwhile?
I can’t just be cute by myself. I found that to be telling of how women should act or what they should be like. Rather than thinking, I don’t need to date even if I am cute. What are you talking about? What does that have to do with anything? Why is it any of your business what I’m doing with my cuteness?
Societal Expectations Of Women fuels Trafficking
Anne: Women tend to want to be liked, we want to fit in. So using those social norms to coerce us to say, hey, you’re supposed to be service oriented. Rather than realizing that women don’t always have to make choices that sacrifice their own well-being for other people. One thing that has helped women is reading scriptures on betrayal and harm.
Dr. Powell: Yeah, you’re not other people’s property. You’re not. So what if you’re not married? So what if you don’t have a boyfriend? It doesn’t make you any lesser of a person, but society will make it seem that way. You’re cute. Why are you single? What’s wrong with you? There’s nothing wrong with me. I have standards. People have to earn my trust and love. Ladies, I’m no different than you. I am a work in progress.
Many things I’ve learned personally and professionally have been because of bumps and bruises, not in the physical sense. Some of us learn this way. Some of us learn ahead of time. The bottom line is whatever has happened to you. It’s not your fault that you may have been trafficked. You learn from it, you move forward. But what I want to impress upon everyone is, be you, be your loving self, and just know that not everyone deserves your loving self.
Anne: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today.
Why Do So Many Women Hate Sex? Maybe It’s This
Mar 14, 2023
Jane Gilmore, consent educator, talks with Anne Blythe, M.Ed, about how it’s normal that women hate sex after they’ve been coerced. In fact, your coerced “yes” was the result of abuse. So probably you don’t hate it, you just hate being abused. If you’ve been sexually coerced by your husband, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
Have you said yes but then later realized you’ve been lied to and manipulated and had you known the truth, you would have said no?
Said “yes” to sex out of guilt, obligation, fear, or exhaustion?
Have you said “yes” after saying no repeatedly?
Have you said “yes” to sex because it was easier to just get it over with, rather than deal with the sulking, anger, threats, and punishments?
When Women Hate Sex, But They Say Yes Anyway
“Consent is about when both people actively want to share touch.” Jane Gilmore
Your desire is everything when it comes to consent. If you don’t want to actively share touch with the other person involved, you are not giving your consent, no matter what else transpired.
When You Said Yes To Sex: What Consent is NOT
Saying yes because you’ve been sleep deprived and will only be allowed sleep if you say yes
When saying yes, after repeatedly saying “no”
Saying yes out of fear of punishment
Saying neither no or yes
Freezing or going limp
Saying “no” or “wait” after the sexual experience has begun
Saying yes in order to protect children, pets, or others from violence and/or other forms of abuse
This is the Takeaway:
It’s not about giving or getting permission, it’s not about getting a yes.
Jane Gilmore, author and consent educator
If your husband or partner considers consent to have occurred after he has:
deprived you of sleep
sulked
threatened you
physically hurt you
“persuaded” you after you have expressed that you are not interested
continued to push you after you have said no
promised to stop if you say no, but claims he didn’t hear you
Then You Are Not In A Safe Situation. You Are Experiencing Sexual Abuse
We know how devastating and confusing it is to learn the truth about consent when you have experienced marital rape, sexual coercion, and assault in your own committed relationship. We are here to help you. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe place to process your trauma. Attend a session today.
https://youtu.be/Cnda4Lcrb0A
Transcript: Why Do So Many Women Hate Sex?
Anne: I am honored to have Jane Gilmore on today’s episode. She is an author, feminist, and consent educator. For over a decade, she’s been delivering consent and respectful relationships education in Australian schools. Welcome, Jane.
Jane: Thank you so much for having me.
Anne: We’re just going to start with consent. It’s something that we talk about on this podcast all the time, especially in conjunction with pornography use. Women hate sex when a woman is unaware of all the secret stuff her husband is doing, and he doesn’t give her the information to give consent, she’s not informed enough to give consent.
Jane: Yeah, because I think that’s important. Often when we talk about consent, people think of it as a binary thing. It’s a yes or a no. When we go into schools, talk to young people, but also when we’re doing adult education, it’s one of the first questions I ask.
And the answers are often gendered, so girls and women often talk about giving permission, when you give somebody permission to touch you. And boys and men often talk about it in terms of when you get permission. It’s interesting that non binary and queer people often have a much more nuanced understanding of it.
Cause consent is about when both people actively want to share touch. You’re suddenly framing it in a completely different way. It’s not about giving or getting permission. It’s not about getting a yes. And I certainly hear this a lot from both young people and adults. Where somebody might say yes, because they’re coerced, scared or pressured into it. That is one reason women hate sex. But what happens after that is not necessarily consensual.
Teaching Consent to Children
Jane: But if you’re thinking about it in terms of both people actively wanting to share something. That’s a completely different thing. Consent also applies to a whole range of different things that we do. So our organization also starts teaching consent in kindergartens. Obviously, you’re not talking to little kids about sex. When you’re three, consent is about sharing your teddy bear, or can I have a hug? Or do you want to go out and play? Go back to that definition: Do both people actively want this?
It’s a thing that three year olds can understand easily. Does your friend want to give you a hug? Does your friend want to share their teddy or play with their Lego? Not about whether they say yes, but whether they want to. And when you start with kids that young, by the time they’re 16, the concept of consent is really easy. But if they’ve never thought about consent in those terms before, it’s a much more difficult conversation.
Anne: This podcast is specifically for women in relationships with abusive men. So my listeners, when they’re thinking, well, I didn’t want to have it. Women hate sex because they are coerced. I didn’t want to do this, but I felt like if I didn’t, he was going to get angry. Or felt like if I didn’t, then he was going to blame me. And this idea that getting a yes as consent is dangerous in the hands of abusers. Because if it’s just a yes, I can lie to her, or subtly threaten her. As long as I’ve got that, yes, I’m good to go. Can you talk about that?
Manipulation & Coercion
Jane: When somebody thinks that consent is about getting a yes, regardless of how you get it, it’s one of the hallmarks of abuse, isn’t it? It’s making sure she can be blamed. Well, she said yes, so it’s not my fault. Regardless of why she said yes. If she said yes, because she was scared or because it was manipulation.
And now you’ve said yes, so now I can do anything I want because you said yes. So now it’s your fault. One of the hallmarks of abuse is making the victim the one to blame and removing blame from the perpetrator. So again, that deliberate misunderstanding of consent, as well. I got her to say yes, and understanding that it’s abusive and that what happens after that is not consensual.
Anne: Many women don’t recognize the abuse. They know it’s wrong. They don’t feel good about it, but they don’t want to call it abuse, because they think he didn’t mean to do it or it’s not on purpose. And that’s why women hate sex. So can you talk about intentional misuse?
Jane: The intentional misuse of consent is part of the manipulation. It’s also part of the abuse, because we tend to think of abuse as physically violent. And we often don’t recognize the emotional manipulation that is about making sure that the perpetrator of abuse can’t be blamed. You agreed to this, so if you can manipulate somebody into saying yes to something, you can make her believe it’s her fault. That ability to manipulate somebody into taking on the shame and blame for the abuse is key to maintaining that abusive relationship.
Why do women hate sex: Perpetrators see others as objects
Jane: The perpetrators of abuse don’t see their partner, even as a person. They don’t see them as an equal, somebody to share something with. They see them as objects. And by nature, you can’t share something with an object.
You have to impose it on them. In an equal relationship or a relationship with somebody you care about, think about, and understand as a person whose desires and needs matter as much as yours. You can’t force them to do something or manipulate them to do something that makes them uncomfortable. You can only do that in a relationship where you don’t see them as equal.
Anne: I often talk about how abusers are transactional. So they have transactionships. Healthy people are relational and they have relationships.
So for example, it’s not bad to explain to someone what you want and why you want it. I want to go to a movie. It would be fun. Would you like to go with me? We could leave at seven., there’s no manipulation. You’re willing to give the information honestly, and you’re willing to hear honest feedback because they’re equal to you. So you give them all the information they need. Women hate sex because they are manipulated.
Transactional vs Relational Dynamics
Anne: They say, Oh, 7 won’t work for me. They go back and forth in this relationship of mutual understanding and mutual agreement. Because abusers are transactional, they’re looking to complete a transaction. So they’ll say what they need to say to get the transaction done, to get the deal done.
If I tell her that she’s beautiful, and that I love her, and that I really care about her, even though she doesn’t know that I’m married, because I didn’t mention that. I can get her to continue dating me, and then maybe be intimate, and then I’ll ghost her, and she won’t even know what happened. And women hate sex because of this.
That’s a transaction. Basically, if I say this, this is what I’ll get. If I do this, this is what she’ll give me. It’s not relational. They’re not willing to meet someone where they are and give them the information they need to make a good decision for themselves. They’re not interested in the relationship.
Jane: Yeah, they’re looking to get something rather than share something. Yeah, I want to get this. sex, admiration, or respect, but I’m not willing to share it. I want something for me, not something for us. You know, we look for those red flags in those beginning times when it’s easier to leave. And that is one of those key ones. Are we sharing things? Is he trying to get something?
In the beginning with that love bombing stage, when you spent so much time together and were so connected. It’s always the part you’re trying to get back to, and every now and again, you’ll return to that for a little bit.
Love Bombing & Grooming
Jane: Then it goes back to the abuse.
Anne: Well, they can never go back to that time, because it’s not who he is. It wasn’t his character she was experiencing. It was a facade. Because it was love bombing. It was grooming. In the beginning, he was grooming to get. But then he got it, he got that thing. Then he’s just keeping it, but that does not take as much effort as it did in the beginning. He’ll never work that hard again, because now he has it.
So she’s trying to get back to more intense grooming more frequently, but she doesn’t realize that was not a good thing. It might have felt good to her, but it was not good for her. Because it wasn’t true. Women hate sex when they are betrayed.
Jane: And she also doesn’t realize that he’s not trying to get a relationship based on love and sharing. He’s trying to get to a point where she is completely within his control. So both people are trying to get to different things, and of course it doesn’t work. He might go back to love bombing if he thinks she’s about to leave. So he’ll either go full fury, I will control you and not let you leave. Or full love bombing, I love you so much that you can’t leave me when I love you like this.
Anne: A lot of women think, Oh, but he’s just weird, like two days a week and the other five days a week, he’s normal. And they don’t realize that those five days he’s grooming, and then he might get exhausted. Cause it’s hard to fake stuff for five days. Then the mask falls off for two days. And then he’ll put the mask on.
Why do women hate sex: Fear & Consent
Anne: That grooming part is also abusive.
Jane: Even if he’s being sweet, you’re still a little wary, you’re still always guarding, you’re still always checking. Because he can turn on a dime, and you never know when that’s going to happen. So that also part of the abuse is keeping you hypervigilant and walking on eggshells all the time. Again, if you’re looking for those signs, is this abusive? I’m not sure. If you never know how he’s going to react. Then you’re pretty sure that’s a sign he’s abusive because in a good, healthy relationship, being afraid is not part of it.
Anne: For my audience, if you’re thinking, well, I’m not afraid of my husband, let me submit that you might be afraid of them using pornography again. You might be afraid of finding out that they’re sexting, you might be afraid of finding out that he’s having an affair. So, even if you think, I’m not afraid of him punching me, or maybe I’m not afraid of him screaming in my face. Are you afraid of something? And consider that if you have fears. You can’t really consent, because the whole situation is threatening, and if there are threats. It’s coercion. Women hate sex if they are coerced.
Jane: And it’s also being afraid of contempt of somebody putting you down and shaming you and making you feel terrible about yourself. If I say something, is he going to tell me I’m stupid or worthless? Being afraid of contempt is also a sign of abuse.
Anne: And the contempt can be very subtle. It does not have to be the flat out like, I think you’re stupid. It can be like, really? Hmm. I’m not sure that’s true.
Comparing Healthy & Unhealthy Relationships
Anne: I’m never afraid of contempt from my sister or friends. They might disagree with me, but I don’t feel stupid. I’m never afraid.
Jane: That thing you said about your sister and friends, that’s a good guideline. Like if you’ve got a good relationship with a friend or family member with whom you feel comfortable and safe. And then compare that to how you feel with your boyfriend or husband. If you don’t have that same feeling of comfort and safety, and being able to be yourself, and not having to walk on eggshells all the time. Well, why not? What’s going on? What is it that you’re afraid of that makes you unable to relax and be yourself and be happy and comfortable around them?
Anne: There are healthy men out there that you would never be afraid they will lie to you again. Because they didn’t ever lie to you in the first place. So that fear of is this going to happen again? Am I going to find out again that he’s been using pornography? Am I going to find out again that he has a secret credit card or that he’s gambling? Women hate sex because of that insecurity.
There’s a fear that it’s going to happen because it happened one time. But with my healthy friends. It’s never happened one time. They’ve never lied to me about some serious thing that affects me greatly. Not even once.
Jane: Absolutely, people can make mistakes, right? You can have a bad day, you can have a squabble, something can go wrong, but there’s a huge difference between that and keeping those kinds of secrets.
Finally telling someone
Jane: Another good one, if you’re ashamed to tell people, Oh, I found he was cheating on me. He said this to me, and I don’t want to tell my close friends. That’s one of those moments that you have to think, well, hang on. Why? Because if you know your friend is going to be horrified, why is he doing this to you? Why is he making you feel like this? I remember saying this to a friend of mine recently. If he does something that you’re afraid to tell me, or that you’re ashamed to tell me, even if you don’t want to tell me, you need to know that’s a sign something is wrong.
Anne: Which is part of why I created the Betrayal Trauma Recovery daily group sessions. So that women can get on and start talking with other women. It’s a safe place Women hate sex if they are being abused.
Jane: Absolutely. And that, that feeling of shame is so corrosive. It does so much harm inside you to be holding those secrets. And knowing that you feel shame about it, trying to hold onto the idea that it’s not your fault and you didn’t do anything wrong. But when you feel ashamed of something happening in your marriage or relationship, you don’t tell people because of it. Again, it’s part of the abuse because it makes you feel like it’s your fault, like you’re doing something wrong and you’re not.
But that feeling of shame is hard to overcome. And then the longer it goes on, the harder it gets to say. After a year or two years, or even 10 years. Well, actually he’s been doing this to me for 10 years, and I didn’t tell you.
Why do women hate sex: Religious & Cultural Pressures
Jane: So having somewhere where you can finally say that out loud. And have someone say I believe you. And it’s not your fault is one of the most important moments I find in women who can finally recognize yes, this is abuse.
Anne: When it comes to consent with sex, I talk a lot about how the pornography addiction recovery community and religious community basically coerce women to have it with men. Women hate sex when they are coerced.
I’m actually religious, so I’m not like anti-religion. I’ll talk about the two different things, and then I’d love to hear your response on both. But I just want to give you a broad overview. The pornography addiction recovery industrial complex will say things like, well, he has these needs. So if he doesn’t have these needs met somewhere, he’s going to act out somewhere else. So it’s threatening, like you are obligated to give him sex because he has to have it apparently. And so if you don’t give it to him, where is he going to get it from?
And then there’s the religious overtones that you need to submit, that he is the head of your household. That in order for him to be faithful and obey the commandments, and not break the law of chastity, you need to have sex with him. Otherwise he will not be able to do it. If he’s not able to have it, it’s your fault that he breaks the commandments by having it with someone else. By masturbating and using pornography, because you were not available to him, and this is your duty.
Debunking Myths About Male Sexual Needs
Jane: It happens in many ways, in many circumstances. So say if I’m in schools, I’ll hear teenage girls talking to me about, well, he needs it. I don’t know if you have it in the U.S., but here, when I was a teenager, they used to call it blue balls.
Anne: Yeah, his balls are going to fall off. I have a medical issue and if you don’t help me with it, my balls are going to fall off. And that’s also just a lie. There’s no man on the planet that is going to drop dead from lack of sex. It is just not a thing. Women hate sex when they are deceived.
Jane: Exactly, it’s just not. You have to do this for me, because otherwise I’m going to be in pain. But if you go back to that definition of consent that we’re talking about at the beginning. Two people actively want to share touch, then that just doesn’t work. He is responsible for his behavior and choices. He’s got to be somebody you want to have it with. And that’s on him. It’s not on you to take responsibility for what he does.
It’s also based on the idea that women are the gatekeepers of sex, and men need it. And that’s just not true. Women like sex too. Women enjoy it, with good sex, and I mean consensual in that it’s shared and both people want it. Both people enjoy it. And if you’re not enjoying it, that’s a sign that he’s manipulating you into giving it.
Actions vs Words in Consent
Anne: I have a concern about this, because if an abuser listens to these conversations. They can parrot back this information and weaponize it. So I worry that women will be like, oh, well, he’s saying this, so check, check, check, I’m safe. Even if he’s saying all the right things, that doesn’t mean you need to want to do that. It’s okay if he says all the right things and you still don’t want to do it. It’s okay if he says all the right things and you still don’t feel comfortable. So to be in tune with, I call it your sacred internal warning system.
Watch his actions. If he says, “What you want is important too.” While he’s still plowing forward. No wonder women hate sex.
Jane: Absolutely, and you’re so right. It’s about what does he do? If the actions don’t match the words, if they’re saying, I care about what you want. This has to be consensual, but then they actually don’t care. It’s just a sales pitch. It’s manipulation, not actually caring about what you want, and then responding to it.
Anne: Even something like, I care what you want. Why don’t you tell me? And then she tells him, and then he says, well, is it my turn now? Can I tell you what I want? And he starts to tell you that what he needs trumps what you need. This isn’t some kind of competition where somebody wins. But if he is abusive and transactional, that is what he will think in his mind. He will think, she won because she said she had a headache, so we’re not having sex. Rather than thinking, oh, we’re deciding this together.
Why do women hate sex: Cognitive Dissonance in Abusive Relationships
Jane: Yes, exactly. Consent is not just about what you say. Consent can be non verbal. Notice somebody’s body language. Notice their expression, notice how they’re reacting. If somebody withdraws from you or turns their face away, or their body’s all stiffened up, what does that mean? Actions and words have to match, because that’s also part of abuse, which is saying one thing and doing another.
So it creates what they call cognitive dissonance, where you don’t understand what’s going on. Because he’s saying all the right things, but something else is happening. Is that my fault? What’s going on? Why did that happen? That happened because he was manipulating you.
Anne: His grooming is so good before sex. Women genuinely feel they actively want it, not knowing that they’ve been groomed, not knowing that they’ve been lied to. And once he gets what he wants, he’s like, Oh, I don’t have to act like that anymore. I don’t have to act nice. Because now I’m not trying to get consent. And that can feel confusing for women. Because it’s like everything was so good and delightful. And then we had sex. And then after we had it, he just started acting weird. Women hate sex when they are deceived.
Jane: Women who’ve just had that experience where they feel that intimacy and want to maintain that closeness are like, but what happened? We were feeling so close. The thing that can sometimes happen with emotional manipulation is you lose sight of what you want.
Losing Sight of Personal Needs
Jane: So if you’re talking about consent of both people actively wanting to share touch. The manipulation takes you away from yourself, and all the focus goes on them. What does he want? What does he need? Why is he doing this? Even if he’s never physically violent. He doesn’t even shout at you. It’s not overt, but you’ve lost sight of what you need, because all you’re thinking about is what he needs. And you lose touch with what you want.
All your focus is on him. And if you forget about your needs, that you need to be loved, respected and cared about. How do I feel? What do I need? I want to not be so exhausted all the time by wondering if I can trust him.
Anne: Totally, you need someone who is trustworthy, and he’s not exhibiting those types of behaviors, yet he’s telling you. Hey, I am a safe person. I care about you. I’ll go to therapy and fix this. I think there’s a good analogy for this. Let’s pretend like someone has Ebola. And they’re like, I am. actively going to try to get treatment for this. And you’re like, great. You would not have sex with them right then. They have Ebola. You would be like, once you don’t have Ebola anymore, you no longer have a contractible disease. Then I will have sex with you. Women hate sex when their partners are untrustworthy.
I want women to realize that if they say to you, I’m going to go to therapy, I’m going to get better, and I’m going to change. Be like, great, you’ve got Ebola, and good luck to you. Look me up when you don’t have it anymore.
Trust & Instincts
Jane: Right? Like if you’re sitting there going, well, I’ve got Ebola and I promise I’m going to go to the hospital. But let’s just have a quickie before I go.
Anne: Yeah.
Jane: No one’s gonna do that.
Anne: No, so if they say to you, yeah, I will get better, and in the meantime, let’s continue having sex. Be like, no, you have a contagious communicable disease. I should not have it with them today. Women hate sex when their husbands betray them.
Jane: You go off to the hospital, you see the doctor, you take all the antibiotics, whatever you need. And when the doctor says you’re healthy, come back and tell me about it. And then we’ll talk.
Anne: Right, and when you come back, I’m going to look you in the eyeballs and see if you’ve got any signs of Ebola. This happens a lot in the pornography addiction recovery community. So he’ll go to, like a CSAT therapist, who’s like a sexual addiction recovery therapist. And he’ll groom the therapist, and then the therapist will be like, wow, he is doing great. So if she asks his therapist, Hey, is he healthy enough now to have sex with? It is, like, 99 percent possible that the therapist will say, Oh yeah, he’s doing so well, he’s healthy now, he’s doing great.
And he is not. You have to trust your instincts, because he could give you the password, and he’s got a secret phone somewhere that you don’t know about. So trying to follow up with a third party always makes me nervous.
Why do women hate sex: Polygraphs & Trusting your instincts
Anne: There are women who even require their husbands to do a polygraph, they think, Oh great. He had a polygraph. So now he’s safe. And I’m like, no, no, no, you don’t need to check his phone. You don’t need to do a polygraph. Just get really, really quiet with yourself and ask your sacred internal warning system. Do I feel emotionally safe, psychologically safe? Do I feel any fear at all? It’s my opinion, that is more accurate than asking their therapist.
Sorry, I’m ranting, Jane. I apologize. But if you have to get a polygraph to be like, is this person safe to have intimacy with? Like, is that not the biggest giant red flag? Like that is alarming. Women hate sex when their husbands lie to them.
Jane: Absolutely, one of the reasons women often go to those extraordinary lengths. Like let me check your browser, let me talk to your therapist, take this polygraph, because the nature of abuse is that you stop trusting yourself.
Trusting your instincts, as you said, is one of the safest things you can do. So if you can just have that moment by yourself and think, how do I feel? I don’t trust him. If that feeling is there, if that feeling keeps going, if every time you stop and have that quiet moment, do I trust myself with him? Do I feel safe with him? Do I believe him? And the answer is no. Then how will that get better? You’ll never trust them.
Anne: Another thing that came to mind with that was that many women, when they get quiet, don’t want to get divorced. I don’t want my family to fall apart. I don’t want a custody battle.
Wanting to be in a marriage partnership
Anne: Women hate sex when they can’t trust their partners. She doesn’t want to have it with him. But she wants to remain married. And she feels like if she doesn’t have it, then she’s not going to get what she wants, which is marriage.
Jane: I understand that I want my marriage and my family to stay together. I don’t want to be a single mother. In those quiet moments, when you think about what you want. I want a marriage, but why? I want a marriage to be a partnership.
And I want to share my life with somebody. I want to share parenting, living and working. I want to share all those things with somebody. If the person you’re with is not somebody you can share with, it’s not somebody you can feel like you have that equal sharing of your lives. And your thoughts and feelings with somebody.
And you know in that quiet moment that you can’t trust him, and you’ve never been able to trust him. If that’s what you want, that good marriage, being in a good marriage gives you that. And if he can’t be in a good marriage, then what you want is not something that’s ever going to happen with him. You might technically have the marriage never really having what you want.
Financial Dependence & Abuse
Anne: It might be genuine concerns of financial abuse. You’re thinking, there’s no way I could take care of my kids. There could be legitimate concerns that you think, are you kidding me? If I didn’t have him, I don’t even know where I would live. I don’t know how I would function. Then how can you improve your own personal financial situation? That’s not something that you have to depend on him for.
Maybe today, but like tomorrow, you don’t. And so start taking a look at the reasons why. This will also help you recognize that you feel dependent on him, and he wants you to feel that way, but you are not. If he’s an attorney and makes a good living, you can also go to law school. You can also become an attorney. All the things that you feel like you cannot get by yourself, you can. Women hate sex when their husbands don’t treat them right.
Jane: Absolutely, and they’re real fears. It’s a tough world out there. And I would never dismiss it as, Oh no, you’ll be fine. You’ll get a job. It’s not that easy. Women are always so much stronger than they think. It feels impossible if you’re in that kind of marriage where you feel financially dependent. No, I could never look after myself or my kids without him. It’s amazing what you can do.
Anne: Yeah, why am I staying and how can I replace those things with something else? If you’re like, why am I staying? And you think because of the finance stuff, what could you do to replace that? Not with another guy? No, no, no, no. Not by dating someone else, no. Are there career options? Is there a grant?
Why do women hate sex: Building Independence
Anne: Think about the reason you’re staying, and ask is there an alternative? That is not a man that can actually meet this need. Because if you think, I need financial stability. And then you replace it with another man. You are also transactional. So rather than having a human replace that need, which would put you in a transactionship. How can you provide that need for yourself? As long as you can meet all your basic needs, emotional, psychological, financial, physical, then you’re not going to be so vulnerable to transactions. Women hate sex when they are abused.
Because an abusive guy likes that. He’s like, great. She’s vulnerable. She cannot meet her own needs. This is a transaction waiting to happen. So if you want a relationship because you need financial stability, why not just get financial stability?
Jane: Exactly, and your point about it not being another man. It is really, really difficult to go from an abusive relationship to a healthy relationship. Because as you say, you’re groomed to expect a particular kind of response. It’s not that you can never be in a good, healthy relationship again. You can obviously, but you need a break.
You need a bit of time to recalibrate and be around people you’re actually good with. And get used to having those kind of signals. And then you can meet somebody, but it’s really difficult to be in an abusive, manipulative, controlling relationship. Then in a healthy one, because you’re so conditioned to those responses. If you need help, like going back to friends and family is different. But bouncing from one man to another, that’s not giving you that stability at all.
Seeking Help & Support
Anne: No, and it’s absolutely fine to get help. You’re going to need help. But that’s a different situation to say, I need help while I get on my feet. I need childcare while I finish this certification, so that I can be a radiologist tech. That’s different than I have financial needs, and the 100 percent way I’m going to meet these is through another person. Rather than, I’m going to create some independence so that I don’t have to have transactionships anymore. I can have a relationship because all my basic needs are met. And I don’t have anything to trade.
Jane: Exactly, I’m there because I want to be, not because I have to be, or because I’m being manipulated or forced into it.
Anne: Jane. You’re amazing. Thank you for pondering with me. Why do so many women hate sex? Likely because it’s not mutual, because their husband has coerced them. And because consent hasn’t been part of the picture. Thank you so much for sharing your insights today.
Jane: It was great. Thank you so much.
What To Do When An Abuser Denies His Abuse – Annie’s Story
Mar 07, 2023
Many people say the key to restoring a relationship is forgiveness, but what should you do when an abuser denies his abuse? Is forgiveness even possible? Here’s what you need to know. Many clergy, therapists, family or friends tell victims to “just forgive” their abuser. But this advice often ignores the trauma victims face and the need to focus on protecting themselves so they can heal.
When people talk about forgiveness, they’re often really asking victims to accept abuse and move on. This creates more harm and trauma for victims who need protection, understanding, and support. There are 19 types of emotional abuse. Most abusers refuse to admit that what they did was abusive. To see if you’re husband has been emotionally abusive to you, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
If Forgiveness Matters To You, Keep This In Mind
If forgiveness is important to you, it’s okay to redefine what it means. Instead of reconciliation, think of forgiveness as “letting go.”
Let go of the relationship if it’s necessary for your emotional or physical safety.
Let go of self-blame by recognizing that the abuse is not your fault, no matter what the abuser may have said or done.
Hold on to justice and accountability. It’s healthy to desire safety and justice.
Forgiveness doesn’t mean forgetting what happened or allowing further harm. It’s about taking care of you.
How To Support A Victim When An Abuser Denies His Abuse
If you’re supporting someone who has experienced abuse and are tempted to suggest forgiveness, consider saying these things instead:
“What can we do to make sure you’re safe?”
“Do you want to hold him accountable? How can I help with that?”
“How safe do you feel right now?”
“What resources do you need to feel supported and functional?”
By asking these questions, you’re shifting the focus to the victim’s needs and reinforcing her right to safety and healing. Remember, when an abuser denies their actions, it doesn’t erase the victim’s experience. Abusers may never admit to the harm they caused, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t cause harm. In fact, denying what happened amounts to more emotional and psychological abuse and causes even more harm.
Transcript: What To Do When An Abuser Denies His Abuse
Anne: I have Annie on today’s episode, she’s a member of our community. And a mom of three beautiful kids. She was raised in a conservative Mennonite church. And she’s passionate about talking about her experiences with sexual and religious abuse, and all the challenges she faced. Annie follows us on social media, and she comments on social media posts. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube.
Anyway, she commented about someone else’s post about forgiveness. They claimed forgiveness is what restores relationships. And so these questions come up: How do you forgive an abuser when they deny it was abuse? Is forgiveness, even an option without repentance?
Because the post she commented on said forgiveness is the key to restoring relationships. It did not say accountability is the key to restoring relationships. And to be accountable, the abuser would have to admit the abuse. So Annie, when you saw that post and you were like, this is not right. If the abuser denies the abuse, we shouldn’t be talking about forgiveness. This is part of knowing if an apology is genuine.
Can you talk about your thoughts when you saw this post on social media? About how it was your job as a victim to restore the relationship with your abuser.
Annie’s Personal Story Of Abuse
Annie: So as a young adult, memories of sexual assault from various sources began to surface for me. A group of male adults from the Amish and Mennonite culture group raped me as a very young child. As a result, I grew up in a culture where forgiveness was something preached and taught. But it was the kind of forgiveness where everything was back to normal. It was basically the abuser denies it and everyone moves on. If I can put it that way, nothing is done.
So that’s how I grew up, and for many years I did not even remember what happened to me. Because trauma can cause somebody to disassociate for obvious reasons, in order to survive. I was no exception with that. It wasn’t until I moved away and got married that all those trauma memories began to resurface for me.
Then I started asking questions like, what does forgiveness look like? Because the first time I told someone my story about what happened to me as a child, They told me I needed to become a victor and not a victim. And that I needed to forgive. And the forgiveness basically meant that if you forgive, it never really happened. About five years ago, I did report it, but the county I grew up in, there are many rumors that there’s corruption in the county.
And many cases involving Amish Mennonite girls never make it to court because an abuser denies his abuse. In fact, I don’t know of one that has ever made it to the courthouse. I found out years later that the way they actually tried to get a confession in my case, something that is not normally done.
Consequences & Corruption
Annie: And so again, it leads me to believe there’s corruption there, because things did not go far in my case. There would have been multiple felonies involved. So it wasn’t like it was something small, put it that way. Victims don’t have a choice about what kind of consequences there are.
Anne: I am so sorry that this happened to you. That is awful. Yeah, you dealt with the consequences every single day. Fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. They never had to face the consequences of their actions. But I believe they will in the afterlife. In the meantime, of course, when an abuser denies his abuse even occurred. Can you talk about what happened when you started speaking up about what happened to you?
Annie: I began blogging about abuse, but I was still in the middle of working through my own story. I realized how much need there was and began writing. I realized that there were so many other women like me who had gone through horrific things like that. And whenever you’re in the middle of something like that, you feel so alone. My heart just went out to those women, and I began connecting with some of them.
I have been Mennonite all my life, except for the last eight months. So we only recently left the Mennonite culture. And that’s a whole new story in itself that I probably won’t get into today, but yeah.
Anne: In a nutshell, did you leave because of these issues?
Annie: Yes, I would definitely say that played a part in it, for sure.
When An Abuser Denies His Abuse Forgiveness Is Weaponized
Annie: So whenever I think about forgiveness and the things that it is not, I often hear a lot of cliches about forgiveness. That are just unhelpful, and honestly they’re so untrue in so many ways. Things like forgiveness restores relationships, really? I mean, did that happen when Jesus forgave the people who nailed him to the cross?
Doesn’t there have to be genuine repentance on the part of perpetrators in order for the forgiveness Jesus extends? To restore the relationship? Things like forgiveness heals you. I don’t think forgiveness heals you and takes the pain away. It didn’t take Jesus’ pain away. It definitely did not take my pain away. When they denies the abuse does Jesus say, I forgive you?
I mean, I would have flashback after flashback, and for years I’ve had flashbacks. And there was a time in my life where I forgave every time I had a flashback. But forgiving did not make it go away, make it less, or heal me. If that makes sense. Some people will say forgiveness frees you.
https://youtube.com/shorts/txDvx6YrT6w
Man, I’m kind of on the fence with that one. Because, I guess, it depends on what you think of as free. What do you mean by that? I don’t think forgiveness freed Jesus from the suffering he was dealing with. So, what do people mean when they say that? I definitely would not say forgiveness is freeing. Just because I think it gives victims a false narrative about what it does.
Forgiveness & Moving On
Annie: Some people will say forgiveness helps you not stay stuck in your past and helps you move on. All these cliches are things that just rubbed me the wrong way. Did Jesus move on? What is meant by moving on? How does that look? People will say.If you still talk about what happened to you, you haven’t forgiven. And my response is, I find it interesting that Jesus showed his scars without fear after his resurrection. Forgiveness is different.
And then also there are people who will say. That if you can’t be around the person who hurt you, how can you say you’ve forgiven them? And again, I come back to that whole repentance thing. Jesus loved the people who hurt him whenever they nailed him on the cross. But as far as having a personal relationship with them. That was not there unless they repented.
And I also want to say this before I get much further. I find it ironic that I’m even talking about forgiveness. Because forgiveness is one of my major triggers. And I just want people to understand that if forgiveness is triggering for them. I totally get it. And it’s okay if you just click off the podcast and not listen to this, like I get it, I’ve been there. And I sometimes won’t even listen to whatever it is or read an article.
If I don’t know the person speaking about forgiveness, and I don’t know if they’re safe or not. That’s how triggering forgiveness is for me. People use forgiveness against me way too many times.
Anne: Yeah. Forgiveness can be used as a form of spiritual abuse, and the effects of spiritual abuse are severe.
Annie: Correct, yes.
Forgiveness As a Trigger
Anne: I just thought of a little example I never thought of before. When you said, if you talk about it, then you haven’t forgiven. That’s like saying, if you talk about when you went to college, then you didn’t actually graduate. As if someone’s supposed to pretend that time of their life didn’t happen. Or you’re not supposed to talk about your pregnancy or your baby didn’t get born.
It’s a weird thing to be like, okay, you can talk about your pregnancy, college, high school and job. You can talk about all these things, but you can’t talk about this. Or it means you are severely damaged, or something’s wrong with you. It’s ridiculous. Like, we should all share anything that happened to us. Whether we’re still in a lot of pain and trauma, or feeling better. I can feel fantastic and still be like, oh man, I remember the time my husband screamed in my face.
Annie: Exactly, and the whole thing of forgiveness healing. One of the things I keep going back to is that I keep comparing trauma to, you know, physical trauma basically. And saying forgiveness heals you, and telling somebody that after a drunk driver has hit them. We would not say that to somebody who is a paraplegic that a drunk driver hit.
You know what I mean? It’s just dumb. We don’t, we don’t say stuff like that. People say that to abuse survivors all the time. Why? I just wish people could understand how much these cliches hurt. Especially when an abuser denies his abuse and has never been held accountable.
When An Abuser Denies His Abuse: Annie’s Definition Of Forgiveness
Anne: I think the main reason is misogyny. I think the main reason is because they do not want the perpetrator to experience the consequences. This is why they are fine with the abuser denying the abuse. They don’t want the consequences of his actions to affect him. They do not mind if it affects you.
Annie: Correct, so how would I describe forgiveness? I don’t like cliches, so this will sound cliche, and I hate that. But when I look at forgiveness, according to a biblical standpoint, forgiveness basically means to let go. And if I had to put into words what that looks like, I would repeat the words of Jesus when he was being nailed to the cross. And he said, Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing.
I think that shows how Jesus let go. It wasn’t that he denied the pain. There was no denial involved, but he understood that God was just and that God would execute justice on his behalf. And that’s why it was safe to let go. And one of the verses that started me on the whole forgiveness journey. It’s the verse in Ephesians 4:32, where it says, forgive, even as God, for Christ’s sake, hath forgiven you.
And I kept saying, well, what does that look like? What does it look like to forgive, like Jesus did? And then I went back to the crucifixion and I was like, so what did forgiveness for Jesus look like? And again, it’s not this thing of relationship. It’s this thing of letting go and knowing that God will execute justice on your behalf. That’s, to me, what forgiveness is.
Christ’s Acceptance Of Consequences
Anne: With that example of Christ on the cross, one of the thoughts I just had is acceptance. Accepting that this person is the way they are. Christ is all powerful, so in that moment he could have been like, oh, I’m going to get myself off the cross. I will shock these guys into repentance or something. I’m going to send hail down on their heads, and they’ll take me off this cross. He could have gotten himself off the cross, but he didn’t.
He accepted they were the way they were, and he accepted the consequences of their actions. In our case, I think so many victims who are married to their abuser, in the case of spouse abuse, the woman does not want to break up her family. She wants him to be an appropriate, kind, healthy person, to be in a relationship with him.
And so, Christ’s example of accepting that that’s the situation, and also accepting the consequences of that. That would mean it’s appropriate to separate yourself from the harm. It is appropriate to keep yourself safe. In Christ’s case, it was okay that he died. And that’s an awful consequence. But then he was resurrected in three days. God always has a plan. So knowing that God has a plan for us, it’s okay to accept reality. It’s okay to accept the consequences of this.
Annie: A hundred percent. I agree with that. And I also want to say that like, there will be people that sometimes twist things to say that letting go and giving it to God means you can’t get the state involved with consequences.
You Need To Separate Yourself Or Be Delivered From Wickedness
Annie: And to that I just say, why then in Romans 13, it says those who execute judgment on evildoers are ministers of God. Letting go does not mean I don’t do my part to see justice is done even if the abuser denies his abuse. Again, through what God has said about ministers of God executing judgment on those who do evil.
And so I just want to make that clear that’s not where I’m going with this at all. Because I know there are people who believe that, and that’s how I would have believed at one point too.
Anne: Throughout the Bible, that is not the way to go. It’s that they need to be judged, and that you need to separate yourself, or be delivered from wickedness. Judges who appropriately protect victims from abuse are agents of God to deliver people from wickedness.
My story generally speaks only about emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. One of the few instances, it was only about three, that were physical harm. The police actually came to my house and arrested him. They were angels of mercy. I recognized what was happening, and that is what delivered me from the abuse. So having someone recognize and hold someone accountable is a godly thing. Helping someone separate from evil is the righteous thing to do.
Annie: Correct, yeah.
When An Abuser Denies His Abuse: Justice vs. Revenge
Annie: I grew up believing there was no difference between justice and revenge. But in my own words, I would say revenge is getting someone back, you know, 10 times worse than what they got you basically. But justice is different in that it’s basically a consequence. Like there needs to be consequences when wrong is done. And God is both justice and mercy, and we see it over and over again. He holds both of those at the same time.
You can’t have mercy without justice, because it just becomes injustice, and justice without mercy becomes injustice, too. They go together, and when we let one slide, there’s a lot of injustice that happens. I think churches particularly have really erred without understanding how just God is and that truth and justice go together.
Like you said, churches tend to try to restore relationships between perps and survivors to make the situation disappear when an abuser denies his abuse. I think part of the reason they do that is because it feels way less ugly and way less messy. However, the damage that happens for the victim, obviously, we understand how that leaves a trail of devastation for them. I feel like we pat perps on the back on their way to eternal damnation.
Anne: A perpetrator of lifelong emotional and psychological abuse and coercion gets caught. And then they say, oh, I’m a pornography addict. I’m so sorry. They’re still lying, but they sound like they’re telling the truth. And then their clergy, maybe even their therapist, starts giving them gold stars, patting them on the back. Like, oh, you’re being honest, good job. Oh, you’re the victim because you’ve been an addict and your dad didn’t play baseball with you as a kid.
Churches & Forgiveness Culture
Anne: And you felt shame. Like as if all the victims haven’t had those same things happen to them. We’re so proud of you, good job. Rather than being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you’ve been abusive for 20 years, and we just caught you. So we’re not going to believe a word you say. We’re gonna like keep our eyes on you from a safe distance, and we’re not gonna believe your denial of abusive behavior.
That would be the appropriate response. Instead, they just start getting pats on the back or good job for finally telling the truth. And we’re so proud of you for repenting when they’re trying to manage their image after they got caught.
Annie: Yes, you explained it well. I think there is a lack of knowing what repentant looks like. It’s not just a simple apology, as you just said. There must be complete acknowledgement, without excuses and without minimization. And there must be acceptance of all the consequences, if not, then it’s a denial that there was abuse. Repentance always respects the boundaries of the victim. And they understand the damage they’ve done, to the point where they’re willing to give space.
They are not there trying to restore the relationship until the victim’s ready. In other words, it’s all in the victim’s hands. It’s not about the perp at all. A repentant perp will not care if the whole world knows about what he did. Like, he’s not out there trying to keep his reputation intact. I think that’s a huge one.
Repentance & Accountability
Annie: That’s a huge red flag when someone’s out there trying to get people to quiet down about what happened. When forgiveness is a culture’s strong point, while genuine repentance is a weak point. There will always be injustice that thrives in that culture. Abuse thrives when just a quick, I’m sorry if I hurt you, is seen as repentance.
It thrives when perps can just cry a few crocodile tears, and everything goes back to normal after that. Abuse thrives when the right words are seen as repentance, and when victims are just forced to forgive. So the thing I keep coming back to is the lack of self awareness that churches and institutions have.
As a group, there’s so much humility that is needed, and there has to be a willingness to listen to victims. Because how else will you know that there are wolves inside your church? If you’re not willing to listen to the people who are saying, this person’s not okay. I refuse to tell someone they need to forgive. And the reason I refuse to tell someone that they need to forgive. Especially if they’ve grown up in the church, is that they know what forgiveness is.
It’s not like a foreign concept, but I don’t get to choose when forgiveness is part of their story. That’s up to God. And I think especially if the survivor, if the victim, is someone who loves Jesus and has a relationship with God. God will show them when that time comes. When and what forgiveness will look like for them. I don’t need to push it. They need space to grieve and lament, and I think that’s the kind of thing the church needs to give them.
Safety & Healing
Anne: Yeah, I don’t even think forgiveness should even be a topic of conversation.
Annie: Yeah, I totally agree.
Anne: I love that you said that. Like, if this is triggery for you, just turn it off. Because it shouldn’t even be brought up in any way, shape, or form. Safety is the only thing that needs to be brought up in abuse cases. Are you safe? How can someone who is being abused get help? How can we help you be safer?
Annie: Yes, and you know what, abuse survivors will absolutely heal when they’re safe.
Anne: And then they’re looking at an abuse victim, wondering why she’s not healing. When she’s still being abused emotionally and psychologically. It would be impossible to heal when you’re still receiving that harm. I mean, it’s more than just observing to see. It’s also watching his actions to see if he is living in restitution for what he’s done. If he’s denying he was abusive, that is a red flag that he’s not willing to change.
Annie, I’m so sorry about what happened to you, but I’m so grateful that you’re sharing your story and educating people about abuse. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
Annie: Hey, it’s awesome to be on with you. Thank you so much.
When Your Husband Doesn’t Help With Housework
Feb 28, 2023
When your husband doesn’t help with housework, it’s important to understand how it might impact you.
Sometimes his refusal to do housework is a sign of emotional abuse. To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free abuse quiz.
Transcript: When Your Husband Doesn’t Help With Housework
Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about what happens when your husband doesn’t help with the housework. When he fails to help with household responsibilities, it forces you to shoulder a heavy burden alone. The situation feels overwhelming. Before we dive into solutions, we need to discuss why this problem happens so often. We’ll examine societal norms, historical dynamics, and personal beliefs. So let’s get into it.
Historically, many cultures have perpetuated the idea that housework is “women’s work.” And this notion is rooted in the systemic exploitation of women throughout time. This belief persists often unexamined, allowing unequal dynamics to thrive in households. Misogyny, whether overt or subtle, plays a role in enabling the unequal distribution of labor this is a powerful truth about emotional abuse.
Women do about 70% of the world’s work. Unfair systems have exploited women since the beginning of time, so society teaches men to expect women to handle most housework and family responsibilities. If your husband avoids chores, remember this goes beyond cleaning—it’s about fairness.
When I grew up in my faith, people said household tasks held divine importance. They claimed these tasks were special and that women who did them were lucky. I disagree. Someone needs to do the laundry. The dishes need to be washed. Someone needs to buy the groceries. Someone needs to make the meals. These tasks are not special.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJiQXyHCejw
The Importance Of Shared Responsibilities
Anne: If someone avoids housework, problems pile up. Your house becomes a disaster. Nobody feeds anyone. Nobody stocks the fridge with food. This work matters, but anyone can do it. I mean, you’ve seen 9 to 5 or Mad Men. The women worked hard at the office, but the men claimed all the credit and earned the bulk of the pay. And THEN women handled all the chores once they got home.
When we discuss an imbalance of labor, we must address issues of power and privilege. Many men who resist housework often exploit their partners by placing the burden of domestic responsibilities solely on them, failing to acknowledge their exploitative privilege and unequal division of labor within the household. Abusive men often believe that asking them to contribute equally in a relationship or help around the house attacks their identity as men.
All marriages must prioritize safety. But being pro-safety doesn’t oppose marriage. Marriage exists to create a safe and equal partnership.
When I educate others about these imbalances and encourage women to advocate for equality in their homes, men with exploitative privilege often push back. They claim discussions about equality attack families or go against Christianity. From my Christian perspective, I see this conversation as aligning with my values, because Christ taught love and equality. The scriptures never condone exploiting women or expecting them to handle all the housework alone.
Christian Perspective On Equality
Anne: In the scripture where Christ talks about Mary and Martha, He says Mary chose the better part. She didn’t do household work; she focused on desk work, like writing or thinking. The New Testament highlights the fruits of the spirit as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and gentleness. Both men and women must embody these values in their homes and marriages.
When your husband doesn’t help with housework, it’s not a matter of biblical roles or faith. In fact biblical submission often becomes abuse. It’s simply about power and control, because inequality thrives when one group benefits at the expense of another. And while some misuse scripture to justify this power imbalance, Jesus himself modeled a different way. He rejected exploitation and dominance, teaching that true leadership and love come through service.
So if your husband claims to follow Christ, his actions should reflect a man who strives to live out his faith, as a Christian. He would not just serve in grand gestures or in public. But he would help with laundry, clean the kitchen, and pick up without complaining or prompting. Jesus himself demonstrated servant leadership, washing his disciples’ feet. In today’s world, it’s comparable to everyday tasks like wiping down countertops or cleaning the bathroom.
Jesus says, “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.” – Revelation 3:20. His nature is invitation and partnership, not control. Similarly, a godly marriage, a biblical marriage, if you will – one that God would endorse – should reflect this spirit of cooperation and mutual care. When your husband doesn’t help with housework, it’s not just leaving chores undone.
He’s missing an opportunity to embody Christ-like love in a relationship. If you’ve tried to have a conversation or multiple conversations about this power imbalance or this imbalance of labor, and it hasn’t gotten you anywhere, he probably resists because of his refusal to give up this exploitative privilege. So when any woman asks, what do I do when my husband doesn’t help with the housework? She’s asking a deeper question.
When Your Husband Doesn’t Help With Housework: Coverture Laws & Women’s Rights
Anne: Why do some men not share household duties? In the story of Jacob, Leah and Rachel, why did Jacob have to work for seven years to be with Leah, and then another seven years to marry Rachel? The answer is not in the Bible. I don’t know why they took this out. But it’s because he purchased them from their father. He was working to buy them. It took him seven years to earn enough money to buy Leah, and then seven more years to buy Rachel. When they married, Rachel and Leah became his property.
Since the beginning of time, until the late 1800s, men have owned women in marriage. It was essentially a form of slavery in Western society, including European countries and eventually the United States. Coverture was a legal practice that gave husbands almost complete power over their wives.
These laws essentially stated that women had no legal status. She gave up her identity, and her husband completely absorbed her. It meant she had no independent legal rights and was subject to her husband’s control.
Coverture Wrongs
Anne: She didn’t even have a right to her own earnings, and any property she previously had was now her husband’s. In addition, any children they had were his. If they divorced, he would automatically get custody. She would never have custody of her children. Under coverture laws, women didn’t have the right to property, money or children, but also their own body. So it was legal for a husband to rape his wife.
Coverture laws also prevented a woman from suing or executing a will without her husband’s consent. One of the most alarming aspects of coverture laws was the power it gave men to control their wives’ lives, including the ability to commit them in a mental institution for literally any reason or no reason at all. During the 19th century, husbands institutionalized countless women against their will.
Often, the excuse was simply that she had challenged male authority or disagreed with her husband. You can read about this in a book called The Woman They Could Not Silence. It’s about Elizabeth Packard, and it’s on our books page. These laws stripped women of legal autonomy, allowing their husbands to label them hysterical or unfit with absolutely no evidence. It not only silenced women, but also perpetrated a system of oppression that denied them basic rights and freedoms.
Feminists have been around throughout history. Women thinkers in the 1800’s or the 1700’s wrote a lot of the stuff I’m teaching you today. Women documented information, and then men destroyed their writings. Since the internet didn’t exist back then, the writings aren’t in history books or integrated into society. Today, we build on the hard work of the amazing women who came before us.
Dismantling Marriage Coverture Laws
Anne: I want to talk about when coverture laws were dismantled, because I think you’ll be surprised how long it took. It wasn’t until 1839 that Mississippi became the first state to begin dismantling coverture laws, but they didn’t dismantle all of them.
New York passed the married women’s property act in 1848. Married women then had the right to own and control property in their own names, but their husband still jointly owned it, of course. In 1860, women in New York gained the right to joint custody of their children, in addition to the right to sue and be sued. The Homestead Act passed in 1862, which allowed women to own property without their husband’s permission.
The Women’s Bureau was established by the US Department of Labor in 1920, which improved the working conditions and opportunities of wage earning for women in the United States. This included their ability to collect their own wages. Also in 1920, Keezer’s Law of Marriage and Divorce stated that mothers should be preferred as custodians of their children.
Since the late 1960s, children have often been regarded as property rather than individuals. And I talk about that in several episodes about parental alienation. So if you want to learn more, just search parental alienation on my website. Discover more about the challenges mothers face when their voices and experiences are not believed. This will shock all of you.
Modern Legal Advances For Women’s Rights
Anne: It wasn’t until the 1960s that women could open their own bank accounts. We all owe the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, passed in 1974, which made it illegal for banks to discriminate against lending based on gender or marital status for the first time. So if you’re my age, your mom would not have been able to get a credit card in her name until 1974.
It’s shocking to think that marital rape remained legal until 1991. The case involved a man convicted of raping his wife, but appealed on the basis that a husband could not be convicted of raping his wife because of the marriage contract. This ruling highlighted how entrenched male dominance was even within marriage.
It’s just part of this entrenched thought process. So when your husband doesn’t help with housework, it reflects a cultural legacy of the exploitation of women. Advancements in women’s rights have always been driven by law, because historical evidence shows that without legal changes, many men are not willing to give up their exploitative privilege. While some good men throughout history, and there are probably quite a few of them, treated their wives well, helped around the house, and were equals to their wives. But enough resisted.
Laws are needed to enforce women’s rights. It’s interesting to me that the misogynists have decided to use the Bible now to enforce the exploitation of women, now that they don’t have the law to back them up.
The Lingering Impact Of Patriarchal Structures
Anne: Even though the original purpose of marriage was to grant men ownership of women, and that legacy lingers in our cultural DNA, marriage should now be seen as a partnership. This is why fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. So why do all these laws matter when your husband won’t help with housework? It’s because for centuries, marriage was built on the idea that women exist to serve men physically, emotionally and sexually.
The mindset has steeped even into the most mundane aspects of daily life, like who does the dishes or who folds the laundry. When your husband doesn’t help with housework, it might feel like a small thing on the surface, but it’s deeply tied to this historical imbalance. The expectation that women should shoulder the burden of domestic labor without complaint is a direct result of centuries of male exploitation in marriage.
Even today, many men think of housework as “helping” their wife. Like they help their wife by vacuuming, or help their wife by doing childcare. This type of language reflects the lingering idea that domestic labor is inherently a woman’s role. So even though these patriarchal structures may have been legally dismantled, their impact remains.
During biblical times, men had exploitative privilege. That lens shaped the interpretations of Christ’s teachings. The way they wrote about it 3,000 years ago continues to influence the everyday struggles of women today. So this exploitative mindset that has historically permeated marriage is the belief that power is only real when it involves controlling someone else. So a king, for instance, would not be a powerful king without subjects to rule.
If he had no subjects, he would have to do it himself. He’d have to go out and plant, grow, pick the wheat, turn it into flour, drag it to the market and sit there and sell it. But what if he didn’t know how to do any of that? What if the only thing he knew how to do was boss people around. He’s not very powerful because if the people stopped doing it, he is completely powerless. If he’s not able to exploit people, he has no power at all, because he’s just pointless.
True Power & Self-Sufficiency
Anne: True power, on the other hand, stems from your individual ability to bring things to pass. The ability to sustain oneself without relying on the subjugation of others. That is true power.
True power comes from your ability. For example. to pick your own wheat, because then you’ll always be fine. If the person working for you just gives up and quits one day, you’re not wondering what will I do now? Because you know how to pick your own wheat.
If your husband doesn’t help with housework, or believes that housework is someone else’s job, it echoes that power over dynamic. Deception keeps that power over dynamic going. So a man might say, I have to work so I can’t do the dishes. Here’s an example. My ex-husband worked from home. He would say, “Don’t interrupt me while I’m working. I can’t help with the kids, the dishes, or the laundry.”
So I wouldn’t interrupt him, but then I would find out that he watched YouTube all day. He lied to me so that he didn’t have to do domestic labor.
Women Aren’t Naturally “Better” At Housework
Anne: Leaving housework undone is tied to this power over mindset, because ignoring shared responsibilities sends a message that one partner’s time and energy or priorities are more important than the others. So when it comes to equality, it doesn’t mean splitting everything 50/50 down the middle necessarily. But it does mean acknowledging and valuing each partner’s unique talents, strengths, interests and weaknesses.
And being able to talk about those in a very real way, without relying on rigid stereotypes. For instance, a husband with a talent for cooking might take charge of the kitchen and grocery shopping. Meanwhile, his wife prefers yard work or home remodeling or other hands-on projects. That’s what brings her joy. Or perhaps she’s the CFO at a hospital or a banker, and he’s a plumber or librarian.
The specifics don’t matter. What matters is that each partner embraces their own natural gifts and interests, the gifts God gave them, and they work together as a team. A partnership doesn’t have room for outdated gender thinking. Like I don’t clean toilets, because men don’t clean toilets. Or a woman says I don’t mow lawns, because that’s men’s work. It needs to be based on their individual talents.
Intentional Discussions About Dividing Responsibilities
Anne: Many couples don’t have these types of intentional discussions about dividing responsibilities. In the few dates I’ve been on, I’ve had to say, I don’t enjoy cooking. I’m not going to cook. I just need to get it out there. Can you imagine a man going on a date and saying, hey, just a warning, I don’t enjoy cooking? I don’t think any man would ever feel like he had to say that.
Have you ever had a conversation like this in your marriage? I’m not a fan of cooking, but it seems like you enjoy it. Would you be willing to take the lead in the kitchen? And have him actually take the lead and plan meals. Or, I love working in the garden. I’d rather mow the lawn than cook. Since neither of us enjoys cleaning the toilet, should we consider taking turns, or would it be better to hire someone? Like an actual discussion about it?
Those types of conversations would allow a partnership. But saying I don’t like doing this, so you have to do it because you’re a woman? That’s crazy town. Rigid traditional gender roles, often perpetuated from the pulpit, undermine God’s intention for each of our unique strengths and talents. I mean, we’ve all been commanded not to hide our light under a bushel. So if a woman excels at math and feels called to pursue a career as an engineer, and she doesn’t do that, wouldn’t she be hiding her light under a bushel?
Think about the scripture where God gives some people the gift of prophecy, and others the gift of teaching or sharing His word with others. Nowhere does the scripture say He gave prophecy and evangelism to men, and to women, he gave the task of making sandwiches. That’s not in the scriptures anywhere. If you genuinely love making sandwiches, fantastic. But it was not based on gender.
In fact, all the scriptures talk about men. Because women were slaves during that time. I mean, you can either say it applies to everyone. Or that their husbands should own women, like they were 3,000 years ago. You have to think about the context.
Rigid Gender Roles & Mental Load
Anne: It’s also worth noting how these rigid gender roles shift the full mental load, the emotional labor of everything onto the wives. I mean, no amount of can you do this or please take care of that will magically transform him into an ideal partner. If you still have to remind him or ask him, and he still views it as helping you, that’s where the problem lies.
It’s important to determine if he’s just not educated about this type of misogyny and needs education. Or if he uses this exploitative privilege to his advantage on purpose. Which would amount to emotional and psychological abuse and exploitation.
Even if you don’t label it abuse, you’re allowed to say this isn’t for me. This is not the partnership I was looking for. I mean, many women feel stuck because they don’t want to label it abuse, but they also don’t like it. Or maybe even a therapist, a book, or a pastor will be like, it’s not that bad. You need to communicate better. But you’ve already tried to communicate these concerns, and it’s gotten you nowhere.
Why are you not helping with housework? Can we work together? You may want to consider that he knows this and is doing it on purpose. And this is emotional and psychological abuse.
Figure Out The Real Reason He Won’t Help With Housework In The Living Free Workshop
Anne: I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop for you to determine what type of character he actually has. Has he adopted these historical misogynistic ideas, and doesn’t want to let go of them? Does he enjoy his exploitative privilege and not want to give up the things he gets from that privilege? The Living Free Workshop takes women through determining what his true character is, and then learning what to do next.
Because this may be an emotional, and psychological abuse issue. It’s not just refusing to help with housework. If he deceives you to maintain power, if he has affairs, if he uses porn, and lies to you about it. If he’s not willing to do his part around the house, if he tries to convince you that God said you had to do laundry.
Because I think, unfortunately, the unequal division of labor has been normalized in so many relationships, institutions and religions. It makes it hard to see how damaging this is when your husband won’t do housework. We all have brain fog shaped by years of taking on too much, which makes it difficult sometimes to recognize these power imbalances.
Although Jesus taught us to serve, and serving is awesome, he wanted us to be equally yoked. The only case in which he says it’s okay to be unequally yoked is with him. Where he pulls more of the weight, not less. He asks us to separate ourselves from wickedness repeatedly throughout the scriptures.
So when it comes to wickedness, which is when we get exploited by someone who wants to use us, he says separate yourself from that. He doesn’t want people to be exploited. Refusing to do housework is a form of exploitation. Because it leaves you with less time, energy, or mental space to work on your own goals to get an education to have a job.
Reproductive Coercion & Neglect
Anne: One particularly insidious form of abuse is reproductive coercion. He might also dismiss your needs as a mother or pressure you to have more children. Or prioritize his desires over your physical and emotional recovery after childbirth. This neglect of your wellbeing sends a clear message: your needs are secondary, even when your body and mind cry out for support.
So many women I’ve talked to have only realized the full extent of this imbalance of power after they’re away from it. They looked back and thought, holy cow, I didn’t realize I went through that same thing. After I separated, I realized I was managing everything. He didn’t do any of the things I thought he was good at, or that I was grateful he did without me managing it. So it was me, I was grateful for myself.
Societal & Cultural Messages That Normalize Husband’s Not Participting In Housework
Anne: In a society where women can feel trapped by these societal and cultural messages that tell you that you’re only valuable if you serve in a domestic way, God gave you specific talents and interests for a reason. And it might be laundry. But consider that women are praised for their sacrifice. And men are praised for their achievements. This comes from 5,000 years of misogyny, which we are still dealing with today.
So if you’re wondering, why won’t he help with housework? It may be as simple as educating him about historical misogyny and the DNA of when marriage was essentially slavery. Or it might mean he’s emotionally and psychologically abusive. So the next step would be determining what’s really going on.
To get more information about what’s going on, go to The Betrayal Trauma Living Free Workshop. That will teach you how to observe what he’s doing. Learn if he’s the type of person you can actually talk to about this, and it will make a difference. Or if he’s going to weaponize that against you.
The Effects Of Psychological Abuse On A Woman – Christine’s Story
Feb 21, 2023
Psychological abuse is so insidious victims often cannot identify that they are a victim. If your husband has used psychological abuse to hide his infidelity or other harmful behavior, here’s what you need to know.
Psychological abuse is a form of emotional and mental harm inflicted that is often so subtle it’s almost impossible to recognize. Tactics of psychological abuse include lying, manipulation, gaslighting to alter a woman’s sense of reality.
Victims of psychological abuse may experience:
Brain fog
Sleep issues
Digestive issues
Chronic pain
Autoimmune disorders
Pelvic pain
Nightmares
Headaches
Poor immune function
. . . and more. Psychological abuse effects victims in profound ways.
Psychological Abuse Takes A Toll On Our Mental Health
Victims of psychological abuse in our community have reported mental health symptoms like,
Depression
Anxiety
Apathy
Eating disorders
Obsessive thoughts
Religious scrupulosity
Terror
Panic attacks
Victims of psychological abuse face the societal obstacle of not having any bruises to show how deeply the abuse wounds them.If you’re a victim of psychological abuse, or wonder if you may be a victim of psychological abuse, please attend a BTR.ORG Group Session as soon as possible. You deserve validation and support as you begin your journey to safety.
Transcript: The Effects Of Psychological Abuse On A Woman
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Christine. She’s a traveling nurse and mother of five children. Her children range in age from four to 23 years old. She’s been with this husband for seven years. And this is her third marriage. So we will learn about her story today. Welcome.
Christine: Thank you. Thank you so much. I’m so glad to be here.
Anne: We’re happy to have you. You’ve been married three times. Would you describe all three of your marriages as psychologically abusive?
Christine: Um, sadly, yes, but I did not know that until going through this current marriage and all the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Resources. I did not realize they were abusive.
Anne: For your first two, where you got a divorce, looking back now. Oh, that’s what the cause was, but you didn’t know until Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Christine: That is true. My first one, I was young, and he ended up abandoning us. I always thought I wasn’t enough, you know, to keep him happy and here. And then going through Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I realized, Oh my gosh, he was gaslighting the whole time.
Anne: And gaslighting really is the number one indicator of psychological abuse.
Christine: Yeah, this is real stuff. So Betrayal Trauma Recovery gave me the freedom to let that go.
Second Marriage & Physical Abuse
Christine: And then my second marriage, sadly, because I had children from my first marriage, and my second marriage, my husband, became physically abusive to them. So that, of course, I knew that one was abusive. I ended up leaving him and getting a divorce for the safety of my children. So about a year and a half into my relationship with my current husband, it was just a train wreck.
I found out the week after I told him I was pregnant with our son, that he watches pornography every day, several times a day. It was just a total train wreck. I was crying and feeling desperate, searching on the internet to find some supportive words or something. And I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery listing on the website for gaslighting. It was the first time I heard the term gaslighting.
Anne: So you’re familiar with my voice. It’s so horrible how infidelity does so much harm.
Christine: Yes, you’ve been my best friend for so many years and you don’t even know.
Anne: I’m so happy to hear that and so sorry to hear that at the same time.
Impact On Health & Sleep
Christine: One of the things I lost through this was the ability to sleep or rest at all. I would go to the doctor, and my blood pressure would be normal on the top, but the bottom number would be so high. And they’re like, your body’s just not relaxing, you know?
And so I would listen to your podcast, and I would have to listen to them just to find sleep at night. Because the torment is so deep and so continuous. You never get rest from it, but your voice would bring me to a place where I could actually get some sleep.
Anne: Psychological and emotional abuse affects your body so much. Oh, that is such good news. My ex-husband would disagree with you. Well, I’m so glad you’re here to share your story. We’re going to focus today on her third marriage. So her current marriage. Did you recognize his behaviors as psychological abuse at first? Can you talk about how you felt before you found the explicit material?
Christine: When I first started seeing red flags, like we would be driving along, and he would make a cat call to some woman on the side of the road. Yeah, it’s one of my most painful memories. It was early on when we were dating, and we were taking my girls to the beach. We were driving by, and this woman bent over, and he yelled some obscenity at her. And I was just shocked.
https://youtube.com/shorts/ut2UYnQBl2E
I was like frozen. I couldn’t even respond. It was so painful. It would be so hurtful and shocking. I would minimize it and think, Oh, it’s just because he’s been single so long. Yeah, I just totally excused it, but I did not recognize it as psychological abuse until I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Psychological Abuse Includes Rejection & Suspicions
Anne: After you were married, did these types of behaviors continue toward you? Did you start seeing other things?
Christine: Yes, so sadly, he got to the point where he would start rejecting me intimately. I had been trained growing up in the church that you always provide for your husband. And never give them a chance where they would not have their needs met, and all that stuff. That they teach that I’m realizing now is so wrong.
So I made sure I was always there and providing for that. And then he started rejecting me. He would say, Oh, I only need to have it, maybe once every four days, and things like that. And it was like a total change from what I had known. I knew there was something wrong, and I could just feel it in my spirit.
Like this isn’t right. And I had a feeling just from hearing sermons in church, like maybe there’s an issue with pornography here. So I started questioning him and questioning him. And finally, after I told him, we’re pregnant, we’re going to have a baby a week after that, he finally admitted to it.
Anne: I was just curious as to what denomination taught that you needed to provide for his needs, like that was your job.
Christine: Yeah, so you can hear that in many churches. I went to non-denominational churches, Baptist and Methodist, and you’ll hear that message across all three of those for sure.
Anne: It’s a misogynistic trope everywhere. And you know what’s interesting? It’s not just religious. Because it’s also in secular places. It’s all over the place. In religious circles, it’s spiritual abuse and psychological abuse.
Realizing The Truth About Abuse
Anne: And then in non-religious places, like in a secular setting, it’s just plain old psychological abuse trying to coerce women by lying to them. Telling women that men have these needs and they’re like animals, so they have these needs that women need to provide for. Pornography use is adultery. Because if they don’t have these needs met, they’ll have to go somewhere else.
Christine: I have learned that this is absolutely not true. And I am not responsible for my husband’s faithfulness. That’s his job, and between him and the Lord. But I did think he had been single for so long it would take time, but then I also thought I was being too sensitive.
And I remember praying in the beginning, because many Christian books will tell you, like, your prayer should first be changed, Lord. So I was doing that, I was like, Lord, I don’t know why this is bothering me so badly. Please change me Father. Make me so that I’m not so sensitive, you know, and I prayed this with such fervency.
Anne: Your goal to be changed to be not so sensitive, but like all women should be sensitive to that.
Christine: Definitely, I’m so glad to find out that what felt wrong is actually wrong. It’s validating. And you know, for the entire year Betrayal Trauma Recovery felt like I was totally surrounded by protectors and advocates, and it gave me the freedom to find my own healing while I had those protectors.
Anne: So before you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and besides the prayer, did you try anything else to try and establish safety and peace in your home?
Failed Attempts To Fix The Marriage
Christine: I tried everything. I spent thousands of dollars on new lingerie to try to keep things interesting for him. We also tried every possible church focused program. Most of them, in fact, all of them ended up being very damaging for me. And giving him wrong advice for sure. We also tried regular therapy. We did EMDR, and had psychological testing done. I found out that I had extreme PTSD. I tried everything I could find.
Anne: Looking back on that, like trying every single thing you can find, what’s your feeling about that period now? Like all the searching that you were doing.
Christine: I heard God’s voice in the beginning tell me that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was the right way to go, but I couldn’t wrap my head around it. And so I was like, Oh, okay, Lord, but let’s try what my insurance will cover. Okay, let’s try what’s free. And looking back, I wish I had skipped all of it because it was further traumatizing and lengthened the process.
I’m going through this, coming up seven years now, and my body and my health have suffered so severely. Because of the length of time I sat in this psychological abuse.
Anne: So were you aware of Betrayal Trauma Recovery like right from the beginning? But you thought like, hmm, let’s try something else?
Christine: For years. So I found you, I think, after being with him a year and a half. And I would listen to all your podcasts. I read every book you recommended. I did Betgrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.
Advice To Younger Self About Psychological Abuse
Christine: Yes, I did that, and that was very healing. Those groups sessions were absolute lifesavers. I have no doubt that without Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I would not be alive right now. Because my depression and suicidal ideation were so severe during the darkest hours. And BTR was there to pull me out of it, to be my advocate and friend.
Anne: If you could go back and talk to your younger self, what are the most important things you’ve learned? And what do you think you’d be like? I have to tell myself this, this is so important.
Christine: If it was my younger self, I would tell myself the truth. I don’t know that I would have chosen marriage, to be honest. If I knew the truth, I think I wouldn’t marry. I would have stayed single and focused on my career. It wouldn’t have been something that I chose to participate in. As much as there are many joys, there’s so much possibility for danger.
If I could go back to the beginning of this marriage, I would tell myself to run, get out, don’t stay, don’t try to work through it, just run. Do not place my future on my husband. I’m prepared either way. And I know that I will be okay either way. I know my exit plan. I’ve got a postnuptial and I’m okay. I’m ready either way. Victims don’t go into their love story any different than a non victim. You’re falling in love, and having all these special moments.
You guys are connecting. At least you believe you’re connecting, even though the other side is fake connecting and lying. Like, our hearts are still intertwined with them.
From Helping Him To Setting Boundaries
Christine: This is still our love story, and you cannot imagine the things happening when they happen. It just feels like it’s unfathomable when it happens.
Anne: It’s like your baseline is this particular reality, which is he’s a good guy, he loves me and cares about our family. And so wrapping your head around the reality that they don’t care about other people. Because they’re incapable of doing that. They just want what they want, and it’s really hard, right, to wrap your head around.
Christine: Yeah, it is. I mean, especially being brought up as a little girl on Disney princess videos. There is no Disney princess video that ends like this. We’re not prepared. Then as humans, we’re prepped for flaws in humanity. You’re marrying an imperfect person. And especially as a believer, you’re going to be like, okay, I’m going to give him grace on this. I’m going to help him through it, because I’m not perfect either. And so I think as believers, we give them extra room.
Anne: What are some concepts that you learned at Betrayal Trauma Recovery that have helped you protect yourself the most?
Christine: I think for me it was boundaries, and my coach helped me with this one. Because even going through traditional therapy, I just thought, well, I’m just not a person who can have boundaries. I just can’t do it for some reason. But what I learned was that the concept of boundaries outside of Betrayal Trauma Recovery is totally different.
So when I got to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s like that little cartoon where Betrayal Trauma Recovery shows like putting boundaries is putting on your, what do you call it? Steel, steel toed boots.
https://youtu.be/9aa5bgEY3bY
Boundaries & The Living Free Workshop
Christine: Yeah, I finally got it once I was in Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And, my coach helped me take it really slow, and she took all the pressure off of it. And she was like, it’s okay boundaries are practice. If you don’t get it right, then you just do it again. Don’t put pressure on yourself, just keep practicing boundaries.
Anne: Yeah, and The Bettrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches boundaries in a clear, actionable way. That is completely different than you’ll get anywhere else. And women are like, oh, I finally understand how to protect myself, yeah.
Christine: Yeah, that helped me so much. When I got to BTR, I felt liberated, like oh my gosh, I don’t have to have sex if I don’t want to. And I can do that, validating myself and protecting myself, and it was really freeing.
Anne: That is wonderful, because I have worked so hard to teach boundaries in a way that is actually doable for victims. And one that will actually protect them, because the other ways just don’t seem to do anything. They don’t seem to protect, and they’re impossible to do.
Christine: They end up feeling like false threats. I always start telling myself, okay, how do I put on steel toed boots for this one? It was like my visual that made the boundaries possible for everything
Anne: That’s cool Christine, to hear that worked for you and helped. Were there any other concepts that helped you that you felt like, oh Betrayal Trauma Recovery teaches this in such a way that it actually helps?
Psychological Abuse Validation & Support From BTR.ORG
Christine: Yeah, I think the most powerful thing for me with Betrayal Trauma Recovery was the validation. For other forms of therapy and all the other groups I attended. I would get the message, you’re being too sensitive or that’s a normal guy thing. But when I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I could seriously get the pain validated. It seemed like having someone there who got me, it would give me enough joy, enough to make it through that day. And kind of take away that feeling of, am I crazy?
Like I’m crazy in my head. That was so powerful for me. I don’t feel like people understand the depth of the sorrow, pain, and darkness. For me, I felt like a prisoner of war. It seemed like I was in a cold, dark, and damp cell. And I was crying, and nobody could hear me. All the incidents that would happen. It seemed like my husband would drag me out of my cell and beat me again.
And the people I related to the most. were honestly other people who had gone through horrible forms of human suffering. I had peace and comfort listening to their stories, knowing that they had experienced human suffering in a painful way like I had. And I just feel like we’re going through this. It is so dark, demonic and evil. It’s absolutely soul crushing.
Anne: It is, now that I’m feeling so much better. It doesn’t take me long to remember. I can like take myself back there pretty easily. Because it was so awful, and it’s long and there’s no end in sight. You know, going through it. It just feels so hopeless and awful. And everything about your life is affected by it. Everything is taken.
Healing & Reclaiming Life
Christine: You have nothing. Everything is taken from you. I know, like, you lose everything. You lose your family. I lost relationships with my children for a long time because of what was going on. I would drive around in a car with him and I would see other people living life. And I would feel like I was looking at life. out a window at something I couldn’t touch anymore. You know, other people are just happy and they’re they’re going about their lives.
About a week ago, I went back to this same gas station where I had an incident, and realized I felt like part of life again. Like I have my life back again. It was so huge. Finally, feel joy and safety again.
Anne: I remember feeling that way we went to an amusement park, and looking at the people, and they’re just walking by and feeling like they live in a different reality than I do.
Christine: Yes, exactly. It’s like they have no clue. Look at them. They’re so happy.
Anne: I don’t know what planet they’re from, but it’s not the same planet that I live on, right?
Christine: Right, yeah, but it’s also helped me as a nurse. I mean, as horrible as this is to go through, I would never want anyone to go through this, but I remember not too long ago, about a month ago, I heard the cry of despair. There was a patient, and she had that cry, and I said, that’s despair. I know, I’ve been there. What’s going on? We need to help. You know what I mean? So
Anne: That’s interesting.
A PhD In Despair
Christine: I feel like I’ve gotten my PhD in human suffering through this, yes.
Anne: As we laugh when you say that, we both kind of chuckle a little bit like, Oh, we have our PhD in despair. It does feel like that. It’s not funny at all. All the women who have been through it, we have a little bit of dark sense of humor, I think. Yeah, it’s all you have.
Christine: Yeah, I mean, it’s a major part of our lives. I will never forget this phase of, I think this is my desert phase in my life.
Anne: Yeah, well, you are so strong and so brave.
Christine: You know, I feel like the younger generation is starting to stand up more. I know that my daughters are standing up against psychological abuse. I feel like maybe we have hope. Maybe there’s going to be a change from us, speaking out maybe we’re giving our daughters for a better future.
Anne: And our sons.
Christine: Yes.
Anne: My son is very, I’ll just say feminist for lack of a better word. I’m not sure what word to use, but he’s always noticing things. In fact, I was listening to a song. I’m not sure if I’ve talked about this on the podcast before, but I was like, Oh, I love this song. And he was like, Mom, this is a terrible song.
It’s misogynistic and it’s abusive and they’re objectifying women and it’s not good. You should not be listening to it. And I said, I said, it’s a metaphor. It’s a metaphor. And he said, I don’t care what it is. It doesn’t matter if it’s a metaphor or not. Like you should not be listening to this.
Healing Trauma From Psychological Abuse
Christine: Oh, what a wonderful boy.
Anne: That’s another thing that I’ve found, healing from trauma. I used to feel the weight of the entire world on my shoulders. So it was hard to go to a swimming pool, right? It was difficult to listen to the radio or to do everyday things, which were triggering. And now to chuckle at my son and think, oh, he’s so cute, but I like this song. So I’m going to listen to it, which I probably shouldn’t, by the way. I admit it.
But I just do not feel the weight of the world on my shoulders. To be like, I don’t have to solve the world’s problems, and I don’t have to be on high alert all the time. I can enjoy this song. Despite its misogynistic overtones, which I shouldn’t, but what I’m trying to say is that’s like huge progress for me.
Christine: Yeah, that’s a huge freedom.
Anne: Years ago, there was no way. I would have been like I can’t watch TV, I can’t do anything. Because there are hints of this everywhere. And it should alarm us and overwhelm us, but we still need to go to the grocery store. So it makes it really, really, really hard.
Christine: I am so glad to hear that you’re in that phase. Because I’m still healing and the world is still overwhelming. Although it’s, it’s getting slightly better. I still don’t watch TV, I still don’t listen to much music. I’m so glad to hear it all comes back.
A Life Saving Podcast
Anne: And that’s okay too. There’s evil stuff out there. I’m not trying to say, oh, you can enjoy the evil thing, no, no, no. That is not what I’m trying to say, but it’s just being able to function is nice. Everyone’s like, we used to like Anne, but then she said sometimes she listens to a Katy Perry song, heaven forbid.
Christine: No, it’s the difference between watching TV and watching something come on, and you have the choice like, no, I don’t want to watch that. And it comes on, traumatizing you, and ruining the rest of your day. And you can’t stop shaking. Like there’s a difference.
Anne: For people who are hesitant to listen because they’re like, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is like too extreme. For people who think this is the wrong way to go, what would you say to them?
Christine: I think at first I thought maybe it was more pro-divorce too, but what I did was look through the podcast and see which one called out to me. And when it’s time for you to hear that podcast, it will be life saving to you. So just take it when you need it, take it as you need it. The Holy Spirit will lead you to what you need to hear. And you will be surprised and overwhelmed at how life saving these podcasts can and will be.
Anne: Yeah. I’m not necessarily pro-divorce by any stretch. I am grateful for families, but I am 100% pro safety. And then the other issue is that after divorce. So many women continue to experience intense abuse.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery, 100% Safe Help
Anne: Divorce does not solve it. It can be a boundary that can keep you safer than other things. So many women use it as a boundary, but it’s not necessarily the solution. And that’s why domestic violence experts who I applaud make me nervous. Because they think the answer is like, just get divorced. And it’s like, no, if I get divorced, I’m going to still be abused and my kids are still going to be abused for years. So we need to find like a sustainable safety plan.
Christine: And I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery was the only 100% safe program. Everything else had like, you’d be listening to it, and then a sting. It would hurt your heart. But when you listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, there’s no stings. It’s all safe. It feels safe.
Anne: Everyone at BTR has been through it, yeah. Right? We’ve all known what it’s like to try and make those hard decisions. Try to think about like what the best thing is going to be. And it is not easy.
Christine: It is so hard. I think the hardest thing I’ve ever been through in my life for sure.
Anne: Oh, well, I’m so happy to get to know you more and I wish you the best on your journey to further healing.
Christine: I just want to thank you so much for meeting with me. Like I said, this is so surreal for me. I’ve been listening to your voice for so many years, and I feel like God used you to keep me alive on so many nights and your kindred spirit with my heart.
What is Featurism? 3 Key Ways It Impacts Women In Marriage
Feb 14, 2023
If you’re a woman trying to make sense of your husband’s behavior or struggling with feelings of worth tied to how you look, understanding what is featurism might bring much-needed clarity. Here are 3 things to know.
To know if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of abuse, take our free abuse quiz.
Featurism, also known as feature-based discrimination, is the practice of valuing and prioritizing certain physical features over others. Featurism is when people think certain looks, like skin color, body shape, or facial features, make someone more important than a person without those features. If your husband is the type to objectify women, he may treat you poorly and tell you it’s because you lack certain physical features.
1. Featurism Affects Women From All Backgrounds But Hits African-American Women The Hardest
Featurism is a form of discrimination that judges a person’s value or beauty based on specific physical features. For example, preferences for Eurocentric features, such as straighter hair textures or smaller facial features, over others. Unfortunately, this form of discrimination disproportionately impacts African-American women, tying into an already lengthy history of systemic bias and racism.
While featurism explicitly highlights inequity, it also causes harm across all demographics. Any woman, no matter her background, can feel reduced to her physical appearance, and this judgment often feeds into insecurities and self-doubt. When it comes to women in abusive relationships, these insecurities can be manipulated and exploited by their partners.
An abusive husband might compare a woman to societal ideals or even other women. Saying things like, “I’m not attracted to you since you gained weight.” Or “I’m not interested in you since you cut your hair.” His goal is to objectify systematically and lower a woman’s confidence. That’s his goal.
2. Featurism Is Used To Exploit Women By Manipulation
Abusive men often weaponize featurism to make women feel they have to hustle for love, respect, or even basic decency. The goal? To keep her feeling unworthy, ensuring she over compensates “proves” her worth. Through her domestic labor, emotional availability, or even sex on his terms.
This manipulation might sound subtle, but could look like this in real life:
He convinces her she needs to look a certain way to “deserve” his affection, leading to excessive dieting, grooming, or even cosmetic procedures.
He may say things like, “If you just put in more effort, I’d be more interested in you,” while continuing to withhold love or affection, regardless of her efforts.
Over time, this creates a toxic cycle where the woman feels she must constantly do more to measure up, to satisfy someone who will never truly be satisfied. It’s an intentional control strategy designed to exhaust and weaken. You need support If he’s oppressing you by his exploitation. Check out our daily online Group Session schedule.
3. What Is Featurism? Objectifying Women Is A Tactic to Keep Them Oppressed
Featurism is a long-standing societal tendency to reduce women to their physical attributes, framing them as objects rather than fully realized individuals. For abusive men, this is an effective way to maintain control. By keeping a woman focused on external validation, he ensures she doesn’t focus on anything that threatens his authority—like her career, self-worth, or independence.
If your husband judges your worth based on your appearance alone, it will chip away at your sense of self and keep you stuck in a constant state of trying to “meet expectations.” Featurism doesn’t just affect women married to narcissistic men, it obstructs equality at large. Women’s contributions, intelligence, and potential become overshadowed by their physical appearance, restricting their progress both at home and in the workplace.
Featurism is often a hidden tactic within larger patterns of emotional abuse and control. When you recognize how he uses it to manipulate and oppress is a powerful first step toward reclaiming your confidence and freedom. You deserve to feel valued for who you are, not just how you look. To learn how to deal with this type of abuse in a strategic way, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
Transcript: What Is Featurism?
Anne: We’re going to talk about that today with Dr. Jones. Featurism is basically the practice of valuing or prioritizing certain physical features over others.
Dr. Natalie Jones is here to talk about some of these issues. She received her Master’s in Clinical Counseling Psychology and her Doctorate in Clinical Psychology. Welcome, Dr. Jones.
Natalie: Thanks for having me on. My dissertation study was on African American women. Their parents psychologically abused them while growing up. And I identified certain elements of narcissistic abuse. Some examples would be colorism and featurism. Colorism, goes way back. It’s a comparison to whiteness and how closely a person of color or a black person relates to a person that’s white. That is then translated to be goodness or worthiness.
So for example, if I have more white presenting features, such as long straight hair, or I have light colored eyes or light colored skin. Certain people perceive me as a better version of a black person than someone who may be darker skinned or brown skin or doesn’t have those types of features.
People called it the paper bag test back in the day. That means Folks would compare their skin color to the paper bag. If you were darker than the paper bag, you were perceived not to be as beautiful or not as worthy. So that’s something specific to people of color.
Colorism In Narcissistic Families
Natalie: Where there’s this perception of lighter skin or what traditional white features is perceived as being better. I can’t make a broad general statement for every family, because colorism presents differently. In the traditional narcissistic family, you have the child, the golden child can do no wrong. And then you have the child, a scapegoat who Is blamed for everything and all of the family problems .
So when you have colorism at play, traditionally speaking, a lighter skinned child, more often than not, is the golden child. So they receive better treatment, more compliments, and people tell them they’re more beautiful. Whereas the scapegoat may be the darker or the brown skinned child. They may be perceived as not as beautiful, put down, degraded more, or comments made about their skin color. And receive just poor treatment.
Colorism is not just African American specific, it occurs in other families of color. And other races, ethnicities, and cultures of color. So I don’t want to put that out there that it’s not on a societal level. Colorism is something society grows to accept, and perpetuates. So what you actually see is an internalized racism that’s pushed within cultures.
It would be comparison or breaking a person down. Degrading a person based on what their body features are. So, for example, if your nose is bigger, or you are bigger in size, or perhaps have a bigger butt. Those things sort of breaking a person down based on features and degrading them based on features.
Texturism was another one. So again, very similar to colorism. Texturism is specifically about the types of hair African American women have. So some hair is perceived to be, again, beautiful or better than other types of hair.
What Is Featurism? Abuse Patterns & Societal Trends
Natalie: And so again, featurism is going back to qualities that are more white centered, being perceived as the standard of beauty. So if your hair is longer, if your hair is straighter, it’s automatically perceived to be much more beautiful. And the patterns of abuse attacking women and making them ashamed, and just breaking down their self esteem. And also making conditions of love, worthiness, or acceptance based on these types of features.
My research showed that typically speaking, you will have much more severe abuse with an intimate partner. Than you did in your family growing up. And this still remains the trend for many women of color today. It’s interesting, because I’m actually seeing it become a trend on TikTok. One of the things I noticed in the research I just talked about with my participants is that their partners did not like women of color.
https://youtube.com/shorts/RAn_v3i6AvM
So their partners actually preferred other types of women based on standards of beauty, which is what they’re told. But their partners, they did not like women of color, and I think they did not like women in general. Maybe think about someone who’s misogynistic. So a misogynist does not like women, right? So even though they may partner with someone, they tear everything down about that person. Or they tear everything down about that culture of that person.
So part of it is just breaking down that person’s being. They could say, oh, women, they’re too angry, too assertive, too headstrong, and can’t be controlled by their man. They need to be more submissive, thinner, have better hair or better presenting features to look like this.
Red Flags In Relationships
Natalie: Even though they’re together and that person may have sex with you. They’re basically telling you daily that they hate everything about you, and they’re breaking that part of you down. It’s the same as a typical narcissist, right? But if you are ever dating someone, that is making statements about a race, that’s featurism. Especially their own race, and how they hate everything about it. For me, that is a huge red flag.
If a woman is dating a black man, and he says, I hate black women, or I don’t identify with those people. That is a red flag, because he has a mother. He may have an aunt, grandmother or sister.
Anne: Yeah, that’s problematic. So I’m white and I have a lot of white friends.
Natalie: Yeah.
Anne: That same thing happens, but it’s generally not related to race, but it’s you’re not skinny enough, you’re too outspoken. This is why I created my betrayal meditations. Do you feel like that’s an extra burden for women of color to carry?
Natalie: Absolutely.
Anne: Because at least for all the white victims I’ve talked with, no one’s ever brought up race in relation to it. So, they’re adding an extra burden of race.
Natalie: Absolutely, most victims of abuse will spend a lot of time trying to change and mold themselves into someone worthy, because that’s what abuse does. And if you take a step back and look at it, not only from a micro level, meaning like just your family and people around you. It’s a bigger issue, because it’s also on a systemic and societal level. Traditionally speaking, there is a sense of oppression, and there is that sort of unspoken message that whiteness is better.
Systemic Oppression & Societal Messages
Natalie: Although, it becomes a sense of privilege when people can’t see that. Because that’s never been something they’ve ever had to worry about. Even just taking a look through your high end fashion magazines, what are you going to see? It’s on reality television. Those messages that you see. Absolutely. It’s something that women of color experience daily.
One of the things to remember is that society also backs that message up. Which also makes it much more difficult to overcome those types of oppression.
Anne: For all my wonderful black friends listening, let’s say like if you’ve listened to this podcast for a long time. You’ve heard women from all different races, religions, and areas of the planet. All of us are experiencing narcissistic abuse in ways that we’re not enough or too much. What is featurism? We’re all learning how to recognize victim blaming. One of those things, we’re, we’re never just right. And so knowing that you have an extra layer of burden. Also know that they’re not going to be happy with anything.
So even if he dated a woman, he deemed “perfect.” He said she had the perfect nose. And she had the type of skin color he said was attractive. He’d still be undermining her in so many ways, and he might be attacking the way she looks. He might be undermining her. There is no way to win. Because it’s not about anything else other than him maintaining power over and trying to put her down in any way he can.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we do not diagnose anyone. I created BTR for women victims of emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion. Sexual coercion is usually in the form of someone using pornography and not informing their wife about it
What Is Featurism? Focus On Victim Safety
Anne: And then she’s not able to give consent. As women victims come to us for help, we don’t diagnose their abusers. Because many victims come in and read something on the internet. And they’re like, oh, he’s a narcissist. And sure, he’s definitely acting like a narcissist. Or he’s got an addiction. And yes, he’s meeting the criteria for that. But instead of focusing on what’s causing these types of abusive behaviors, we focus on victim safety.
Are you emotionally, psychologically, and sexually safe?
Natalie: Yeah. I mean, what do you need a diagnosis for? Like figure it out for what? Like logically and rationally, what do I need that for? What is that going to get me? Usually when I encounter someone with that question, or that train of thought, that is still someone operating in survival mode. Every day that you’re being abused, or brutalized, or with someone taking advantage of you, you’re surviving. Although you may not feel like it, you still are surviving. That is that mentality.
Someone who’s oppressed has that mentality. It’s like, what can I do to fix this situation? Because someone who is abused is always told it’s their fault. And they need to fix something, right. That is the mindset when someone’s abused, that you need to fix someone else. Or if you have some answers, you can fix this person, or this person can get some help, or this and that and the other.
Having your own autonomy is you figuring out what’s going on with you and what you need in this moment. There’s nothing wrong with this man cognitively. So there’s no reason that cognitively they can’t get their own help.
Empowerment & Realization
Natalie: If they want to, they will. So I would encourage you to think about what do you need? What is happening to me? Honestly, if you pay attention to yourselves. You can say, this person isn’t treating me well, this person is putting me down. And other people may help this person abuse me, put me down, or silence me. And that’s the information I need, that I don’t feel good about what’s happening here. They are hurting me, and I don’t like that.
And I think that is a much more empowering way to realize what’s going on and take care of yourselves. But when you ask questions like, is my partner a narcissist or is narcissism a mental illness, or what can I do to help them? You are typically looking at ways to help that person and not help yourself. That’s the whole premise of abuse being told you’re the problem. And so you need to fix it. An abusive person is constantly projecting the blame on you.
And telling you that you need to do X, Y, and Z to be good enough or worthy enough. Or for them to even consider loving you, right? And then they always change the goalposts. So again, that survivalistic thinking. That’s what you are conditioned to do. Because that’s all hammered into you. Whether it’s academics, like your grades need to be good enough, it’s you need to look pretty enough.
Or maybe you need to cook everything, clean everything, bend over backwards every day, and it’s still not good enough. And that’s why I always encourage people to look at the factual information and write it down on paper.
Focus On The Facts
Natalie: Like what are the facts? Not what can I fix, what it should look like, or what do I want it to be like?
Anne: Or even what is he saying, because he’s gonna be saying stuff.
Natalie: Right.
Anne: Don’t even write that down. Don’t include his words as facts.
Natalie: Right, if he’s saying something but doing something totally different, that’s a fact. Like if he said, I’m going to be at your house Tuesday at nine o’clock, and he never showed up.He never showed up, that is a fact. But he lied and said he was going to do something else. That is a fact, right? And so just sort of writing down the facts, just what are the facts? Pay attention to how you feel.
Many times when people reach out to counseling, they’re focused on anxiety. And you know, my partner’s not communicating with me. So it’s important to pay attention to how you’re feeling. You need someone who is very objective, who is in the trenches with you, because there are some therapists that aren’t as good, aren’t as qualified to suss out abuse. Because we’re not thinking realistically about how dangerous a person is. We’re just thinking that we want to fix it.
Sometimes it could be a life or death situation that you don’t need to fix. You just need to get out, or otherwise the outcome isn’t going to be good for you. And that’s specifically why I say you need someone who’s realistic, objective, and can tell you. This person is significantly disturbed, and I need you to pay attention to what’s going on here. Because when you’re in it, you’re thinking in survival mode.
What Is Featurism? Get Support
Natalie: If you think you are experiencing featurism, You need someone who is objective, in reality. Focus on getting some support if you can, a lot of narcissistic abuse focuses on isolating you. If you can get your support online, this podcast has a handle on it, because not everyone understands.
Anne: Yeah, it’s hard to find the right support, which is exactly why I started podcasting. So yeah, you get it. Dr. Jones, thank you so much for spending time talking with me today.
Natalie: Absolutely, thanks I appreciate it talking to you.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard? Why Healthy Marriage Is Easy – Elizabeth’s Story
Feb 07, 2023
Is crying yourself to sleep almost every night normal? Is marriage meant to be hard?
We’ll get to the answer. And in the meantime, consider that you may be experiencing emotional abuse. To find out, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
The Myth That Marriage Is Meant To Be Hard Enables Abuse
The old “marriage is hard” trope enables abusers. When clergy, family, therapists, and others advise women struggling in abusive situations, they answer the question, “Is marriage meant to be hard?”” By saying that all marriages are difficult, all men demand sex, and all women are enduring some level of misery. Victims may feel they aren’t justified to seek safety.
The truth? Healthy marriages are a safe space from the pain, fatigue, and trauma of life.Healthy marriages do not cause pain, fatigue, and trauma.
https://youtu.be/_Ct_-FuCnYo
So What’s “Normal” Marriage Meant To Be Like?
Many women fear that abuse has altered their perception of “normal” and “healthy.” Answering the question “Is marriage meant to be hard?” with a yes prevents them from recognizing a healthy relationship.
This list may help you if you are having trouble identifying abusive behaviors in your relationships:
Gaslighting is abuse
Yelling is abuse
Punching walls, hitting objects, and slamming doors is abuse
Hurting or threatening pets is abuse
Coercing you into sex is abuse
Having sex with you when you’re sleeping, using painkillers, or feeling sick is abuse
Giving you an STD is abuse
Humiliating you is abuse
Having sex with you without your informed consent (including about his pornography use or other sexual behaviors) is abuse
Shaming you by using scriptures, talks, or other religious materials is abuse
Lying to other people about you is abuse
This list is not exhaustive, but may help identify covert abuse in your relationship.
Is Your Marriage Harder Than It Should Be?
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know that the first instinct women usually experience is a desire to point it out to the abuser, and try to elicit him to change. We also know that this doesn’t work and puts the victim in more danger – emotionally, sexually, and physically.
We’re here for you. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are specifically created for women who need a safe space to process trauma, ask questions, and find a community of women in similar situations. You’re not alone.
Transcript: Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard?
Anne: I have a member of our community, Elizabeth, on today’s episode. She’s a wife and mom, and survivor of a 14 year abusive marriage. She’s a writer working in the advertising industry. Outside of her career, Elizabeth works as a grant writer for Human Trafficking Restoration House, and as a leader for her church youth group. She enjoys working out, being outside, and caring for her energetic German shepherd.
Welcome Elizabeth.
Elizabeth: Anne, thank you so much for having me.
Anne: Elizabeth talked about how this is an opportunity to process her experience in story form. Before we started recording. I’m excited to be part of that process with her, and hopefully this will be a good experience as she shares. Is this one of the first times you’ve publicly shared your story, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth: Yes. It’s the first time. There are very few people in my life with whom I’ve shared the full experience.
Anne: Let’s start at the very beginning.
Elizabeth: My parents were part of an arranged marriage through the Unification Church cult. They married in Madison Square Garden with a bunch of other people. They had five kids. I’m the second oldest. I have two brothers and two sisters. Growing up, it was just a lot of chaos. I didn’t know, is marriage meant to be hard? My parents were not in a good space emotionally or mentally. They both had rough upbringings.
Struggles With Mental & Physical Abuse
Elizabeth: My mom was overtly mentally ill and also had a lot of physical problems. Is marriage meant to be hard? Mom’s illness caused many conversations about, “what’s Mom’s mood today?” We always watched what she was feeling, because if things were not going well for her, that meant bad things for us. There was a lot of mental and physical abuse in that situation. Our parents left us alone a lot. We banded together and worked together to survive.
My dad worked on Capitol Hill in the eighties. He would commute into Washington, DC and leave us out in West Virginia in the panhandle country, in the side of a mountain with my mom who was homeschooling us. So we didn’t have much contact with the outside world, other than play groups sometimes. I always had this sense that there were these other families that were normal. I looked at other families. It always seemed like we were so different.
Their mom seemed to care for their kids and would actually do things for their kids, but we were always doing things for ourselves. We would go to a play group, and my older sister and I would pack the lunches, just simple things like that. My job was to serve my mom coffee in bed.
Thankfully, there wasn’t much involvement with the Unification Church. When we lived in West Virginia, we went to an evangelical church, and that was a refuge for me. I remember going to church camp, and I had become a believer at a church event at age seven. I’m Christian and want to follow God.. It always seemed like I was somehow doing something wrong. I felt confused. I could never, ever get my mom’s approval.
Moving To The Midwest & Parental Separation
Elizabeth: There was a lot of pain, chaos, and confusion. Is marriage meant to be hard? Theirs was. My dad is from the Midwest. Around age 10, we moved to the Midwest, his family was still there, and that was the start of things going downhill. Shortly after we moved out there, my parents separated and my dad left. So that meant we had no buffer between ourselves and our mom. My mom would keep my older sister and I up late and accuse us of awful things.
She would make us feel like we were to blame because our dad had left. There was just constant chaos. She would physically abuse us. I remember washing the dishes one day. She came up behind me and smacked me across the head. Because I wasn’t doing it right. That was a big theme. I could never do things exactly the way she wanted them, but she had never taught me how.
There was a lot of shame in that I couldn’t ever figure out what my mom wanted. She cut our hair as a punishment one day. One night when we were staying up late, she was really angry at us. She started sawing at her wrists, and that actually happened twice where she tried to commit suicide in front of us. We attended church and participated with the youth group there.
My youth pastor one day talked to my dad. We still contacted him. But obviously didn’t live with him. The pastor said, you need to get custody of those kids. My older sister basically shared what was going on. My mom had basically torn a nightgown off of her body. So there was evidence of what had happened.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Custody Battle & Living With Dad
Elizabeth: So my dad got custody of us, and we moved in with him, and I was about 11 or 12. So that was something.
Anne: Did he get custody relatively easily?
Elizabeth: There was a court hearing, and my mom basically was not in a good mental space to fight for us. I don’t remember this well, but my dad says even her attorney said she’d probably go with her dad. I remember my older sister and I were in the judge’s chambers. He told us to go over to the window and wave at our parents.
And I didn’t understand why at the time. But I think he was looking at our body language when we were doing that. So I guess that had something to do with it.
Anne: Custody by waving. Sorry, I’ve never heard of that before.
Elizabeth: I know. Looking back now as an adult, I’m sure there were other things that were going on as far as evidence. But I don’t remember it. My Mom homeschooled us. It wasn’t well done, because there was so much chaos. My mom caused a lot of trauma when she homeschooled us.
I remember trying to learn to read the word turtle, and I could not figure it out. She started physically assaulting me, because I couldn’t read this word. Is marriage meant to be hard? It certainly was with my Mom. Another time, I learned fractions, and filled out a pie chart in crayon, but I was writing on a surface that was kind of bumpy. So the other parts I had written in pencil also looked like they were in crayon, because it was bumpy.
Transition To Public School
Elizabeth: She was mad at me because I had written the whole thing in crayon, so she basically screamed at me and made me go back. So I kind of scratched the crayon off of my pie chart. But when I took it back to her, she said, oh, that was actually okay. I did the rest in crayon. I said, no, it was in pencil, and looks textured or whatever. And she blew it off and didn’t apologize. I felt that I had actually been right all along, but it didn’t matter.
So, I attended middle school the last quarter of seventh grade. I lived with my dad, and always wanted to go to public school. It felt cool. I realize now how traumatic that was. Because I had never been around kids like that. They knew all these funny sayings and words that I didn’t know. They said I was slow, because I just didn’t understand what they were saying. It was like they were speaking a different language.
I remember at that time this growing need for acceptance. But simultaneously, feeling a lot of shame and rejection. I felt different again than everyone else, and everyone else seemed to have their lives together. Meanwhile, I lived with my dad in this very small house, with my four brothers and sisters going through puberty simultaneously, without any support. My dad seemed overwhelmed with his own problems.
High school is a little better. I played soccer and wrote for the newspaper. Looking back, I had friends that were not healthy, they would make fun of me, but I was always trying to win their approval.
Meeting Her Future Husband
Elizabeth: I had this sort of mentality that my childhood wasn’t that bad. Obviously, I was fine. It was a long time ago. I’d moved on and tried to do my best, and obviously was okay. So all through high school, I wanted a boyfriend that seemed like the ultimate symbol of acceptance. And unfortunately, I was awkward and out there, and it didn’t seem like there was a lot of interest from other people in me that way. So I would say I was definitely desperate for attention.
I graduated high school, and I was going to go to journalism school and be a writer. The summer after my graduation, I met a boy I’d known in the past through church. He was a friend of a friend who would sometimes come to church. He was different and sort of grown up, and we started hanging out. And a month later, we were dating. I finally had a boyfriend, someone who actually liked me. And to make things even better, his family was still together.
His parents were together. It seemed like theirs wasn’t. His Mom worked at a church. She spent time involved in their lives. So I would come home from college and stay with them over the weekend, and she would do my laundry. I had been doing my own laundry since I was 13.
When I lived with my mom, she threatened not to let me use the washing machine and hang my clothes outside. The fact that his mom helped was something spectacular for me. You know, talk about red flags.
Early Relationship Dynamics
Elizabeth: The first time I met his mom, she was in his room changing his sheets. He was 17. We all went downstairs and there were a bunch of us friends, and he was like snapping at her to get out of his room. And I felt impressed. Or like, you know, I didn’t think you should talk to your parents like that. But I felt impressed that he could do that. And she accepted that without causing a huge blow up.
Because I definitely could never have that attitude with my mom. Unless I wanted a smack in the face.
Anne: So, to you, did it signal a good relationship, kind of?
Elizabeth: Yeah, yeah.
Anne: Due to your experience.
Elizabeth: Yes, that seemed like something accepting. Like they could actually, I don’t know, go back and forth instead of escalating into this awful scene. So yeah, you’re right. For all I knew, it was a healthy way of interacting. I was a freshman. He was in the delayed entry program to join the Army. And we grew really close, really fast.
And unfortunately, intimacy escalated, that was way too premature. Here I am a Christian having it with my boyfriend, feeling wrought with guilt because I knew better. And I wanted to do what God asked me. But I also felt like it happened, so now I can’t stop, and that was also the message I was getting from him. We started, and basically married now, so we can’t stop.
Anne: You didn’t know at the time it was coercion.
Elizabeth: Yes.
Coercion & Manipulation
Anne: For victims of coercion, you think you’re consenting, that was the purpose of the manipulation.
Elizabeth: That’s an example of it not exactly sounding right, but entering into his world and his logic. Which would end up being a long-term problem. Like, we lived in our own world. People just didn’t understand us. He always had an explanation for why he did things or why we should do certain things. That sort of made sense. And I wanted him to like me. And I liked him. I was again desperate.
So all those combined contributed to basically me putting aside whatever reservations I had. And going along with what he wanted, because another underlying issue here was a lack of close support. So my dad at this time had remarried, and I obviously had three younger siblings, and they were still living at home. There was just this sense that. I bothered them because they remarried. They were dealing with my younger siblings, they didn’t want to take care of me.
They didn’t have the capacity to offer that kind of support. I wanted to get out of the way. So I would come home and stay with my boyfriend’s family. And maybe go over there, but they didn’t seem interested in my life. In the meantime, I was getting very much ingrained with his family. I remember one time saying, I’m not okay with us being intimate anymore. I want to stop. And he basically said to me, show me in the Bible where it says that.
I wanted to flip through my Bible and find a verse, but I didn’t know where to look or how to interpret that. So I just didn’t know what to do.
I Didn’t Have The Ability To Say No
Elizabeth: And without someone saying, it’s okay if you want to stop. I just didn’t have the ability to say no.
Anne: What you didn’t have is understanding. You were gaslit by society, maybe by their church and your abuser. So when you’re in that fog of abuse, you don’t have the ability, but only because you don’t have the knowledge. Once you receive education about it. It’s like I can take a step toward that. But I just don’t want victims to blame themselves. It’s the opposite. It wasn’t your fault.
Elizabeth: I just didn’t know better.
Anne: Like, there’s nothing you could have done at the time, because you don’t know what you don’t know. When you don’t know what you don’t know, there’s no way to get out of that.
Elizabeth: Exactly. And when I finally did, and I don’t want to jump ahead, but when I finally did, I couldn’t go back.
Anne: Right, we’ll get to that soon.
Elizabeth: Yes, my freshman year was at a big university. I wasn’t involved, I would go to classes, but come back so I could talk to him. I felt obsessed with my boyfriend. He would come down at every opportunity. And occasionally we would get into fights. Like one time he told his younger brother when I was at their house to come at me with his bath mat that the dog had peed on.
And I was so mad I took out my anger on his younger brother. Because I had a younger brother about that age. He was egging his brother on, and now I’m the one to blame.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Joining The Army & Marriage
Elizabeth: Because of how I reacted, which wasn’t good either. I was just really angry. His whole family got mad at me, and had crossed a line. I felt embarrassed and mortified, so I withdrew and didn’t take his calls. I was like, we’re done. And I remember feeling at that point like, okay, I’m going to break up with him.
Then, when he talked to me and somehow felt like I had no choice again, I had to stay with him. It was a lonely world out there, and I had become part of his family. If I wasn’t part of his family, I didn’t have anyone. His little brother did not apologize.
There were no apologies from his family or from him. But even if he had apologized, how would I know if it was genuine? It was just, let’s move on. So I forgave and forgot another theme that would emerge later on. Like I said, he was going to ship off to basic training. And I decided to join the army, and I was going to join the reserves. And we would go to basic training simultaneously, and everything would be great. Because once he’s in the army, I could transfer to a unit wherever he is.
And I could get my college paid for, which was a big deal. Because I had taken out loans to pay for my first year of school. So we talked about marriage, and it was always brewing in the background. I said in one of his arguments, he said we already married. Because we’d been having intimacy.
And so I was like, we might as well just formalize this. We decided to marry a couple of weeks before we would both leave for basic training. And we did.
Pregnancy & New Beginnings
Elizabeth: I remember meeting my dad at the back of the church and going down the aisle, and feeling this sense of dread, not knowing what I was getting into, but feeling like it was too late.
Here all these people were, and I must keep going. When I said my vows, I genuinely meant them. I wanted to take care of him. I wanted to be a family with him. And I always remembered that throughout our marriage. But, a couple of weeks later, I needed to set to ship out for boot camp. And, the military has learned the hard way to give female recruits a pregnancy test before they leave for basic training. I found out I was pregnant at the military processing station.
Anne: Oh, wow. How did you feel when that happened? Did you feel happy, excited, sad? Did you feel confused?
Elizabeth: I was in shock. And there was also a sense of guilt, because this is the natural result of doing what I had done the last eight months. So there’s a lot of shame. I don’t know when I’d actually got pregnant. It was before we married. But I didn’t know that when I married, all I knew was that I was not feeling well. People say marriage is meant to be hard, but this hard?
I made it a point to pretend like got pregnant on our wedding night, because of the shame. Also from a church environment, knowing well that I was not fulfilling those expectations. So, basically, I lied for a while.
I Have The Baby & He’s Recuperating
Anne: I’m grateful that you’re sharing your story and how you felt. So many women have been coerced like this, and they haven’t understood they were being coerced. And then maybe they get pregnant. Then they feel like they have to marry, and they also want to marry, so there’s conflicting feelings.
Elizabeth: Exactly.
Anne: The end result is usually they can’t get help because they can’t tell other people what’s going on. Which is what your abuser wants. But you don’t know that at the time. You just think you’re protecting yourself from embarrassment. I think abusers know this and use it against you. It’s a way that they end up manipulating their victims. And that has happened to all of us.
Elizabeth: Yes, exactly. So they give you the option to nullify all your contracts with the military, or to stay in and go to training later. I decided to nullify everything and set my life on a new trajectory. He ended up shipping out exactly the same, went to training over that summer, and that fall I watched his graduation. We moved to a base, and our son was born two months after we moved there. So my son became the focus of my world.
During the early stages of the Iraq war, my husband deployed to Iraq a year after. I ended up moving back to where we came from. He ended up getting hurt, got a purple heart, and came home. So I took care of him.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Career & Family Life
Anne: Is his injury like a long term type of injury that’s going to affect him the rest of his life?
Elizabeth: He had some bad burns that eventually healed, and a fractured hip, that I think still gives him problems. He was in a wheelchair for a while, but he recovered completely. You wouldn’t know to look at him that he went through that. I will say it became his identity. It became this persona that he took on that is very much honored by people around him. He used that against me later on. He eventually is discharged from the army, and we continued our life in our hometown.
Elizabeth: And I graduated before him and got a job. Our son was getting ready for kindergarten. I talked about maybe homeschooling him. He and his family looked down on my background, and homeschooling. They thought my background was crazy and ridiculous. And they didn’t want anything to do with it. So is marriage meant to be hard still?
There was a lot of mocking about it. Even though that was part of who I was, it wasn’t welcome in that space. I put our son in public school and went to work, and rose pretty quickly in my career to levels of influence in our state politics. I worked as a reporter, and then started working in communications. My company regarded me well and used my abilities. Many people saw it was very visible. It was very public roles in the legislature and in state government.
Professional Success & Personal Degradation
Elizabeth: There was always this disconnect. I had this important job, I’d go off in my fancy dress in the morning and work for people who had a lot of influence. But I came home, and he constantly degraded me and put me down. There’s a lot of mockery about who I was. I have this exuberant personality and sense of humor. But he always regarded me as not funny, and just sort of stupid and too much. He communicated it to me in very subtle ways.
In the meantime, I wanted to have a good marriage. And so I would read books about marriage, especially Christian books about marriage. I would put those things into practice because I’m extremely self aware, which I’m coming to understand is a trauma response. Just trying so hard in my marriage to be the wife. I wanted him to recognize me, but it was never good enough.
One thing about him is that he’s a picky eater, and I love to cook and serve other people. So I would make these meals. He wanted steak or roast or something like that. And it was never quite good enough. He would put a bite in his mouth and taste it, and then say, oh, it’s okay. Maybe it could be different this time. This way next time.
Elizabeth: It wasn’t even that sweet. He would taste it, and you could just tell by his expression, that there was something that was coming up short. I would just feel sad, but I would resolve to try better next time. to keep working to improve myself, whether that was my physical appearance or my abilities, or working out.
Running & Seeking Validation
Elizabeth: I was a runner at the time. And I had entered a 5k race to support our son’s school. I ended up being first place for the women’s division. There weren’t many people in the race, but there was still something that I was excited about. Coming home and I had this medal. And he’s like, well, when you beat my army PT score, you’ll know you’ve done something. And I felt devastated, because I never could do anything that meant anything to him.
I never knew what was going on and why I could never make him happy. Because all the marriage books I read basically presented this formula. Like if you respect your husband enough, if you submit to him, if you do these things, he’s going to love you back. He’s going to do his part. And it never worked for me, marriage was just so hard. It never worked for me. Looking back now, I see how marriage books from a Christian perspective were wrong.
Coming from a place where if you do this, this is what’s going to happen. It always talked about that if you respect your husband, he’s going to love you in the way you need. So I focused on my part and had to make sure I did everything perfectly. I met his every need. I was always there for him whenever, however, and whatever he needed, which was a lot. If I read a book and he came into the room, my attention was on him, but it never worked. He would treat me with disdain.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard? Emotional Neglect & Stonewalling
Elizabeth: There were issues that would come up inevitably, we could never get them resolved. He would never take responsibility for himself. Being married to him was so hard. There were occasions where I would elevate things like, okay, I know for certain that what he did or said was not okay. I just know it. I would have in my mind, like, I’m not going to let this go. I’m not going to just apologize. I would bring that to him and say, I’m not, you know.
Well, he would start stonewalling me. He ignored me for days until I finally relented and just apologized. Then I had to let go of whatever was actually going on with him and his behavior. I was always the problem. And I internalized that message. Many times I was just distraught that I was such a failure as a wife.
I felt discouraged. And that just left me vulnerable, because I was looking for affirmation all the time. Like, am I even acceptable? These are some effects from spiritual abuse. It got to the point where I didn’t even feel like I was a human. I felt like I was something different, and that was obviously what I struggled with throughout my life, just feeling like another. Feeling like somehow outside of mainstream society. This was along that same vein, like I was somehow worse or different, or my problems had no solution.
And he would talk about how he didn’t believe in feelings, like emotions are not logical. They serve no purpose. So how you feel doesn’t matter. I got that message a lot. If I said, hey, the way you did this hurt me in this way. He completely disregarded and mocked me.
Triangulation & Comparisons
Elizabeth: He would say I was so emotional, that it didn’t matter. I needed to be more like him, stoic, and such a leader and strong. I just needed to do what he said. There was also a lot of triangulation. He would point to other women and basically be a fan of them, especially about news reporters on the TV, local news reporters. He knew at one point that it was a dream of mine to be on a broadcast. Is marriage meant to be hard? It was heartbreaking for me.
I’d studied journalism in college, so he would be like a fan of these local reporters, and when they’d inevitably move on to another station, he would be like grieving. I was supposed to be like supportive or something. But obviously, it made me feel like I was lesser than and didn’t live up to that standard. Is marriage meant to be hard? Mine was hard.
Whenever there was a situation where I would share my view. Like for example, our son was playing basketball. There would be like these really tense situations in the car on the way home. Where my son hadn’t done something the right way in a game. I would be like, maybe next time you can try this. And he would say, no, don’t even do that. That’s dumb. So it was automatically wrong. And then he would basically restate what I had just said. It was almost like, it didn’t matter what I said.
Another example is in dining rooms, the chandelier is lower because it’s over the table. He had been hitting his head on the chandelier, and he just didn’t understand why. And I was like, we just need to move the table back.
Constant Undermining & Double Standards
Elizabeth: He automatically said, no, that’s not it. Then he paused for a minute. He was like, oh. That is one of the few times I remember that he actually realized. Maybe there is something to what she’s saying. Normally it was just, I’m wrong. What I said was stupid. I just needed to shut up. There were a lot of jokes about me, my physical appearance and my teeth. I didn’t like it. But I also wanted to look like someone with a sense of humor.
I was willing to go along with being self-deprecating, but it was really from a point of cruelty. It wasn’t affectionate. It was just putting me down. There were also many double standards. If something went wrong with our cell phones, like I accidentally dropped it and cracked the screen. That was a crisis. It was my fault. One time his phone fell out of his pocket, he stepped back, stepped on it and shattered the screen. He came home disappointed.
I was trying to be supportive. Then I realized that if I had done that, there would have been hell to pay. He would berate me for being so stupid. Of course, I wouldn’t treat him like that. I brought that up to him, trying to gently say, hey, what’s with this double standard? And this is an example of being in his world. He said, I’m already harsh enough on myself. I punish myself, but you need to be told that’s not okay by me, because you don’t think that way.
Anne: I need to teach you a lesson
Elizabeth: Exactly.
Anne: Yeah, the abuser way of thinking of it. Is marriage meant to be hard? It is with an abusive spouse.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Evangelical Views On Marriage & Intimacy
Elizabeth: Yeah, there was that double standard all the time. He would always have a convenient explanation for why it made sense. And eventually I knew there wasn’t anything I could do about it. It didn’t make sense to me all the time, but if I tried to challenge him, it would escalate into an argument. Then him stonewalling me and ignoring me for days until I finally relented.
Another angle of this, and it speaks to the evangelical world’s view on relationships between husband and wife. As we’ve established, I wanted to be a good wife. If I was not fulfilling his needs, I was falling short as a wife. I had this view that I had to meet his intimacy needs like every three days. He was on board with that. Looking back now, it was just very mechanical. He wouldn’t kiss me. There was a lack of intimacy.
Eventually, he coerced me into doing things that I didn’t want to do. But I felt stuck between this place where I have to meet his needs. And if I don’t, I’m not going to be the kind of wife I want to be. He was so persistent to make me do things I didn’t want to do that I eventually relented. It was very traumatic for me. Actually, towards the end, I started to say to myself, this can’t be right. Is marriage meant to be hard? I didn’t think it was supposed to be. didn’t know what to think.
Anne: Were you sharing it with anyone at the time?
Elizabeth: No.
Anne: Do you think that was part of why you didn’t know what to think? Because he had isolated you?
Isolation & Lack Of Support
Elizabeth: I would have never brought those things up to another person, because I didn’t want to dishonor him. And I felt like I would disrespect him or betray him if I brought those issues up. His needs and comfort, and everything was much more important than whatever I was experiencing. And looking back, I dealt with things alone, didn’t have support, accepted things for what they were, and didn’t know any different.
He definitely coerced me in that way and didn’t know what to do about it. It was for me. Yes, I felt isolated. We couldn’t make couple friends, because people didn’t want to be around him. He had the same friends since high school, and they were people willing to go along with what he wanted. Other people I tried to bring into our lives, whether from church or people I knew in high school, there was something wrong with them. I had very few friends.
I tried to get involved at our church, like a volunteer. Or do some sort of Bible study, but there was always some reason why I shouldn’t do that. If we would drop our son off on Wednesday nights, he would want to take me on a date. He would want to do something with me. And so I was like, if he’s initiating that, I’ve got to do that and not go to the adult Bible study.
What finally broke everything wide open, as I said, I had been involved in politics in our state and had a job. Through circumstances outside my control, that job ended after six months. Because of the way the political system works. I didn’t expect it. And he melted down.
Job Loss & Emotional Breakdown
Elizabeth: He could not handle the fact that I had lost my job and was going to be without work. We weren’t destitute by any means, but it was like such an injury to him that this had happened. What’s so interesting is that I’d always thought of him as this leader. You know, he’s got such a strong personality, and he has all these opinions and isn’t afraid to share them. And such a pronounced sense of right and wrong.
In a crisis, he wouldn’t function. Because he was so stressed out, or I don’t know, had anxiety or couldn’t control things. So that would all get taken out on me. That’s definitely what happened in this situation. I was the reason why this had gone badly. I could have done things differently. It was all my fault, of course. I was trying to tell him, let’s just trust God in this situation. I think things will work out.
People respect me. There are other opportunities out there, and let’s see what we can make happen. He just thought that was dumb. I remember wanting to pray with him about the situation. And he pulled his hands back from me and said, “No, I don’t do that”. It was a wake up call to me, because we’re supposed to be this Christian couple. Like what kind of Christian couple doesn’t pray together.
But again, I felt a sense of shame on me because I had failed somehow and somehow pushed my husband towards these actions. Is marriage meant to be hard? It was very hard.
Anne: Have you ever considered during that time, instead of him “losing it” that he saw this as an opportunity to assert more control and abuse you more because you were vulnerable?
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Realization Of Abuse
Elizabeth: I haven’t considered that, no. Talk more about that.
Anne: So many people view abuse as like when they lost control. What we know is abuse is when they try to assert control. It doesn’t look like they’re having fun to us, because they look angry, bitter, and frustrated. But it’s an opportunity for him to truly, really abuse you because you’ve lost your job.
Elizabeth: Very possible.
Anne: It’s like kick them once they’re down. I’m not sure if that was the case in your situation, but I like to point that out. A healthy person would not take the opportunity to assert control and ensure there’s a power differential at a time like this. They would be trying to build up their partner or help them feel good about themselves. Is marriage meant to be hard? These are situations when abusers make it extra hard.
When you say at times of stress, he would fall apart. One thing I would like victims to consider is that during times of stress, they want to assert control. That’s when they want to dominate. That’s when they want to make you feel bad.
Elizabeth: From what you’re describing, yes, that was a pattern throughout our marriage. Where if there was a crisis, if there was something that went wrong, I would just want to deal with it with him and we can get through this together. This is just life, and he would use that to bark orders at me to make me feel awful for what happened. Yeah, like you’re saying to assert control. So I think you’re right.
Anne: For them, a crisis is an opportunity for abuse.
Elizabeth: Very interesting.
Realization The Extent Of The Abuse
Anne: It’s like a reason to abuse someone. Whereas if you hadn’t lost your job, it’s hard to go off on how bad of an employee you are.
Elizabeth: Yeah. All the things you did wrong. That’s absolutely right. So at this point, I worked with a coworker who got me this job, and felt really bad that this ended up happening. It was outside their control, and I didn’t know what to do. So I opened up like saying, this is what’s going on at home. I feel so bad. Can you help me get another job? And this person used that as an opening to say, actually, Elizabeth, I’ve been watching your marriage for a long time.
I’ve seen some things that I’m concerned about. And they sent me a few articles on abuse. At first, I was dismissive, because of what I’d been through with my mom. And I knew that was child abuse. There was a lot of physical violence in my childhood. That hadn’t actually happened in my marriage. So I was dismissive, having his mindset like, oh, emotions don’t matter. You just need to think about things logically.
Anne: Can we pause there for just a second?
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Anne: So I am like hyper-logical.
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Anne: So in my marriage, I was logical about everything. And instead, I was accused of being a robot, not being feeling enough, and not being compassionate enough. Is marriage meant to be hard? With an abusive husband, it is. They’re always going to use your strengths against you, and they’re going to exploit your weaknesses.
Elizabeth: Yes, yes.
Anne: So I want to put this out to everyone, whatever it is, the thing they were telling you, imagine you were the opposite.
Logical vs. Emotional Manipulation
Anne: I assure you they would have acted the same way.
Elizabeth: Yes.
Anne: To ensure everybody knows that it wasn’t about you being a human. Good for you. I’m so glad you weren’t a robot. Congratulations. Okay, thank you.
Elizabeth: It turns out that God made us with all these different parts of ourselves that actually make up who we are. So our logic, our emotions, our physical bodies, our spiritual bodies are all integrated together. We can’t cut off one part. And say that’s what’s healthy. And that was such a revelation to me. Like, actually, no, it wouldn’t have been healthy to become a Vulcan. That was not okay.
Anne: Also, you sound super logical to me. I’m guessing from your job you had to be really logical.
Elizabeth: Yes.
Anne: Let’s pretend for two seconds that he would have engaged you in a logical debate, I’m guessing you would have won. And the reason he had to go silent was because he never could have beat you logically.
Elizabeth: I mean, yes.
Anne: Because he was being illogical.
Elizabeth: Yes, you’re right. Another point of hypocrisy there: he would get angry. And anger is an emotion.
Anne: Exactly.
Elizabeth: But he would act like that doesn’t count.
Anne: Yes.
Elizabeth: So it was okay for him to be angry, but when I cried tears of frustration because I was so desperate for him to understand me, I was being emotional, illogical. I started reading everything I could get my hands on about abuse. And light bulb after light bulb started going off. I started seeing the patterns. Gaslighting, shaming and criticizing were all there. Is marriage meant to be hard? No, but with an abuser it is.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Discovering Patterns Of Abuse
Elizabeth: I just felt sick because I thought I was getting away from that path by marrying into his family and having a family of my own. So I got another job, surprise, surprise. It was a better job and it was more money with good coworkers, and I was good at it. It was a spiritual moment for me. I read an abuse book, it said are you willing to surrender the outcome of your marriage to God and let things fall where they may by saying no to this?
I had been trying to control the outcome. And I was so stuck on, we don’t divorce. 14 years of, I can grit this out. I can make things work. It’s up to me to make this work. This realization that it was actually out of my hands, and a large part of it was his responsibility. And he was not taking responsibility at all. You know, we had this beautiful house that we’d purchased together. A dream house, and we’d only been there a few years.
And I realized what it meant to say. I’m not going to do this anymore. I’m not going to put up with this. Is marriage meant to be hard? No, it isn’t. I started saying no. I started calling him out on his behavior and saying, I don’t want you to say that about my teeth. It’s not okay for you to tell me that I’m wrong and dismiss me out of hand. I’m actually saying something that you need to hear. He immediately noticed that something was different. His mom noticed too.
What’s interesting is she had always been supportive of me. We were good friends. She knew her son had issues, and she knew that he didn’t treat me well.
Setting Boundaries & Seeking Separation
Elizabeth: And I was like, I’m not going to keep putting up with this. She understood at that point. Well, there were a few nights I had been firm on my boundaries. He called his mom crying. She came over and was basically like, you’ve got to do what he wants you to do. You need to stop this silliness about what you’re doing, because she’s been married 35 years and marriage is hard.
That marriage is hard line is such a lie. Is marriage meant to be hard? Marriage is actually not hard. Marriage shouldn’t be that hard. But we always act like, Oh, you’ve got to sacrifice. You’ve got to die, like if your marriage is killing you. I moved into the guest room and had very little contact with him. I realized I needed everything to come through writing with him. So he could text me or email me. I could not have a conversation with him in person.
Because he was so good at manipulating and getting me off track and pointing the blame back on me. I would just get so confused. Everything in writing was a big factor in getting clarity. Because I would go back and look at those texts and say, okay, this is what’s going on here. I can identify. He’s trying to make me feel guilty here. I spent a few months getting strong, educating myself about what was going on.
There was a point where I said, okay, nothing is changing. He has not done anything to indicate that he cares enough to change his behavior. He’s not showing any remorse, or if he says, sorry, there’s no marked change of behavior. So, I decided to separate out of home.
Separation & Legal Proceedings
Elizabeth: And I wanted him to move out, because his parents had an extra bedroom. So he could live with them. I went to my dad and his wife’s house. They lived an hour away at that point, and I called him and said, listen, we’re going to separate. I need you to go to your parents’ house. And that didn’t go over well. I knew it wouldn’t. Like he cannot be moved unless he’s physically forced out of place.
So I moved in with a friend I knew from Bible study. She opened up her home to me, and I lived there for six weeks. A week after I realized, there was absolutely no movement. I will file for divorce. I had been thinking about that as a possibility, but I wasn’t there yet. It was too overwhelming to comprehend. I was thinking about our son. Thinking about, what does our witness look like if I do this?
Anne: When you say, what does our witness look like? What do you mean by that?
Elizabeth: Just the way that we live our lives is a testimony to what we believe.
Anne: Okay.
Elizabeth: You know, that’s a big piece of evangelicalism, which is being a witness to the world and showing God’s love and redemption. And the idea that our marriage couldn’t be redeemed was hard for me to grasp. There are theological issues there, because some people believe God controls everything.
So God can break into his heart and say, you’ve been treating your wife really poorly. The Bible talks about this a lot. Is marriage meant to be hard? Not like this. What I learned is that he has a very hardened heart, it’s a choice that he makes.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Smear Campaign & Family Dynamics
Elizabeth: And if he were to soften his heart, I’ve been doing it wrong. I’m going to go the other way, and going to make amends. I’m going to do the work on myself, so God would redeem that. But since he is so convinced that he is right in everything and never takes responsibility for his behavior, God allows him to make that choice. He has the free will to make that choice.
And I had to come to that realization. Because we want to have this idea that butterflies and rainbows, and God will do all these things. But here’s the thing. We work in cooperation with God. He didn’t make us puppets. What it means to be a follower of Christ is that you surrender your life and say, God, my life is yours. You move that way every day. Well, if you say those words, but your heart is hardened, you’re not following Christ. Because your heart is not there.
He started a smear campaign while we were separated. My boss came into my office one day and said, Elizabeth, I’m hearing things, and I don’t know what to think. Tell me what’s going on. And I was so mortified. He worked in a similar way for the state, and had access to people who had access to my boss, and basically had set them on me, through my boss. Is marriage meant to be hard? Abusers make it hard.
And his mom was also on me, and his aunt, with whom I had been good friends, and who seemed supportive of me. They saw his behavior suddenly against me. So that was extremely painful. He was making all sorts of accusations about me about my motivations.
He Lied & Manipulated At Work & With Family
Elizabeth: He said we just had some communication problems, and here I was causing all these problems and saying all these things about him. I was devastated. I was obviously mortified that it had leaked into my work life, my career. It just was more evidence that there was no change and that he didn’t love me. He couldn’t love me. You don’t treat people you love like that. And that was a really hard realization. Is marriage meant to be hard? It’s difficult when the husband’s abusive.
We’d always made it a priority to say love you when we got off the phone. So realizing those are just words, then the way he behaved or even what he’s capable of, I don’t believe he’s capable of actually loving other people. Some really hard realizations during that time period. But, I ended up able to move back into our house after about six weeks of out of house separation. That was because a judge ordered him to move out for the remainder of our divorce proceedings.
We were able to work things out through a conciliator. Although I had to sit across the table from him and basically work things out with our son. I think many survivors do this, where they’ve had all these realizations, so they’re trying to get other people to understand and explain all these things. It’s like the meme with the guy and the threads, and they’re making all these connections.
And so I was trying to explain to this lawyer who’s supposed to be mediating for us. And she’s like, I don’t care. I’m just here to make sure everything goes well. So we ended up in a divorce agreement.
Finalizing The Divorce
Elizabeth: During this time, he realized he couldn’t control me anymore, so he discarded me because I wasn’t any use to him. Unfortunately, his family was still angry at me. I had deleted him off my Facebook, but I hadn’t been able to bring myself to rid me of all his friends and family yet. And there was one post I made that said something, I can’t remember exactly, but they found it offensive and called me out.
His aunt said something about how I was driving around in my car, which had a Purple Heart license plate on it. He made me put it on because that was his identity. I was just trying to get credit or look good, because I hadn’t changed my license plate yet.
Anne: That you wanted people to think you were the Purple Heart?
Elizabeth: Mm hmm.
Anne: That’s hilarious. To put words in her mouth, and probably also, you were using him all along.
Elizabeth: Something like that?
Anne: Yeah, for your own aggrandizement.
Elizabeth: Yes, yeah, something like that.
Anne: Which is exactly what he was doing. That was just projection.
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Anne: Whatever comes out of his mouth and accuses you of doing is what he is actually doing.
Elizabeth: Right, and I know for a fact that she did not come up with that on her own. She doesn’t even live in town. So she would have had no way to know what license plate I had on my car.
Anne: That’s straight out of his mouth for sure.
Elizabeth: Exactly, yeah.
Anne: And other women get accused of being gold diggers or wanting the image like, I’m an attorney. She wanted to marry an attorney.
Elizabeth: Yes, exactly. I finalized the divorce.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Post-Divorce Reflections
Elizabeth: I tried to move on. Finding myself picking up the pieces, and honestly, it almost started to begin to feel inevitable. Having grown up with such a traumatic experience and dysfunction, never having people say, hey, that wasn’t right directly to my face. I felt bound and destined to repeat that sort of situation. Is marriage meant to be hard? It seems like it was meant to be hard for me.
Anne: You’re thinking this to yourself?
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Anne: I don’t think this is true, by the way. People tell this to survivors all the time, the victim blaming, and it’s just luck of the draw, who people marry. Because some women might be “attracted to that behavior”, but then their husband ends up being amazing, you know,
Elizabeth: Absolutely.
Anne: Maybe you don’t agree with me, but none of this was your fault. We don’t deserve to be abused, even if we’re broken. But anyway, you’re here at this point in your life where you’re thinking this is inevitable due to your injuries.
Elizabeth: Yeah. Maybe part of that sort of thinking is evidence that it’s hard to think about so many things outside your control.
Anne: Yeah.
Elizabeth: You know, you want to think through your life. You’re making these conscious, good decisions, and they’re not because of patterns from your past. But I think in my case, I was going down this stream and not being aware of my own agency, my own sense of self, and my own ability to shape my own world. So, I am definitely still healing. I’m trying to do better about owning my story. Thank you for giving me the chance to do that.
Healing & Self-Realization
Elizabeth: Like I said, there are not many people who know this about me. There are many themes that I’m trying to deal with around shame, rejection, and abandonment that are painful. At the same time, and I think this is probably my personality, I can see the gifts given to me because of my experiences. And not to say they were good, but they’ve shaped my understanding of other people well and shape my ability to deal with grief.
To deal with hard situations, and sit with people in grief and hard situations, and just be with them. And I’m grateful for that. Now I remarried a wonderful person. He is very steady. He’s respectful, extremely smart, loves me, and values who I am. That is something to get used to, I’ve had to get used to that. Because I still want to earn his love.
Those two things don’t work together. Earning and love, they don’t work together. And I think that’s something I’m going to be working through for the rest of my life. But, I’m definitely on that path.
Anne: So is marriage meant to be hard? When you said marriage doesn’t have to be hard work. You spoke from experience, because your current marriage doesn’t feel like hard work.
Elizabeth: It doesn’t. And maybe that’s a testament to how hard I worked before. So this seems really easy in comparison. It’s easy for me to think about things from his perspective. Not to say that we don’t have scuffles and things that we work through, but comparatively it’s a breeze.
Hope & Faith For The Future
Anne: If there was anything I could just like pour into our listeners, it would be hope. Hope that you can have a peaceful life, heal, and faith that any action you take towards safety will fruit something. Because so many victims think, well, I could try, but it wouldn’t do any good. And sometimes it doesn’t, right? Sometimes you try to have that conversation, and it doesn’t do any good.
Another thing I’ve been thinking about lately is there’s a scripture that says, God does not give his children a rock when they ask for a fish. He gives them a fish. Abuse victims think I’m praying and getting rocks, and God’s never gonna give me a fish. I’m just getting rocks. I think the reason that happens is they don’t realize there is an abuser between them and God’s blessings, who literally swats the blessings away. The fish are coming our way, but he is there like, nope.
You can’t get them, feel God’s love or people’s appreciation. You feel isolated, and they’re swatting it away. God wants to give us the fish. We can’t get the fish, we have an evil or wicked block in our life keeping it away. Having faith that every step taken towards safety will fruit something.
Elizabeth: Yes.
Anne: God wants to give you a fish. You found a relationship where you feel loved. I’m so thankful and grateful for you. And you feel God’s blessings.
Elizabeth: It’s amazing.
Anne: You’re starting to feel the fruits of your own righteousness. If you really submerge in scripture, even if you do your best to be righteous. You can’t feel the fruits of it when you marry a wicked man. Is marriage meant to be hard? Being married to an abuser is hard.
Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Overcoming Wickedness & Finding Solid Ground
Elizabeth: Yes, and coming to terms with the idea that wickedness was close to you all this time. And affected you so deeply is really hard. There’s a lot of grief there, because you thought he was something and he’s actually something else. It’s like the ground is disappearing from under your feet, and you have to learn how to stand up again and realize that’s okay. Like those experiences are what they are, but there’s also solid ground out there.
Anne: Processing our stories is part of that. Is marriage meant to be hard? No, it shouldn’t be. As you’ve shared your story. The one thing I hear is strength and an awesome sense of responsibility for yourself and your own life. That’s one thing that I find awe inspiring about survivors. Even though we are victims of other people’s atrocious behavior. We still maintain the sense of responsibility for ourselves and our lives. And that is what helps us get to safety.
And that is what will help us live a life of peace. I think it’s remarkable that almost all victims maintain the sense of responsibility, even when acknowledging they were a victim. And I think that’s cool. I hear that in your voice. I hear this strength and that you acknowledge your injuries and are working to heal them from a place of humility. That is so inspiring. So thank you so much for sharing.
Emotional Abuse and Infidelity: Why You Can’t Have One Without The Other
Jan 31, 2023
Did you know that emotional abuse and infidelity always happen together?
If your husband has been unfaithful, take this free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse that occurs with infidelity.
Why Infidelity is Emotionally Abusive
If he’s unfaithful, he’ll subtly pretend like he’s not the type to be unfaithful, which is emotional abuse. If he’s cheated on you, but he’s said anything like the statements below, he’s emotionally abusive:
Showing immense (false) compassion for women who have been cheated on
Showing immense (false) compassion for men who have cheated on their wives, offering spiritual, religious, or emotional support to them and offering to be his “good husband” mentor or supporting the guy on his “journey to change”
Bearing testimony or other public forms of admission of their prior life as a cheater (even if it was last week);
Enrolling in or starting a program to help unfaithful men change (becoming a life coach, abuse coach, new-age coach, fitness coach, counselor, therapist, 12-step sponsor, religious leader, becoming active or more active in church communities, yoga guru, cult leader, social media influencer, or self-published author)
Insisting that others do not label them as previous or currently “abusive”, but rather someone who used to be a sinner or some other euphemism, even though he’s still lying and manipulating everyone around him
If they’re unable to find success, they often claim it’s because they are victims. Those who ruined their reputations thwart them. Perhaps their faith community excommunicated them or they lost credibility in their community due to an arrest.
Emotional Abuse and Infidelity May Sound Like This
Be warned: If he says, “Don’t worry, if you choose to divorce, I understand. I’ll always take care of you and make sure you and the kids are provided for no matter what you decide,” there is a HIGH probability he’s grooming you. Abusers use this line to find out if the victim is seeking a divorce. They know it’s in your best interest to keep your decisions private until you’re ready to take action. This is one reason why you should prepare for divorce.
If he says these words, hear what he’s ACTUALLY saying, “I’m manipulating you to stay. Or so I can know what moves your going to make first, so I can railroad you in divorce.”
We know the shock and pain of realizing he’s not actually changing, but just manipulating you into believing he’s changing – by playing up his public images and making promises he doesn’t intend to keep.
You’re not alone. We can help you determine if he’s truly changing. Attend our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions and find the safe community you need.
Transcript: Emotional Abuse and Infidelity: Why You Can’t Have One Without The Other
Anne: So it’s going to be me today on the podcast talking about emotional abuse and infidelity. I had an abuser contact me and say he liked the podcast. He has some questions, and he wanted to come on the podcast to talk to me about it. And I was like, Hmm, I’m not going to have you on the podcast. Let me see if I can address these questions and also the entitlements behind them.
His first question is, if every man says I used to look at pornography, but I no longer do, is lying. What I hear is that Anne does not want any men in recovery to discuss it, which leads me to the challenge of withholding the truth, which is what I was doing and no longer want to do anymore. I don’t understand what he’s saying here.
Anne does not want any men in recovery to discuss it. I don’t remember saying that. If I did, it was taken out of context. And then he goes on to say, Or why should any man even try to stop because there is no hope? And once an abuser, always forever will be an abuser, a lying pornography user. In other words, as a listener, an abuser trying to work recovery, I am receiving a mixed signal. So do I think a man should discuss it? Yes or no?
What I’m concerned about is grooming with a goal. So I hope abusers do not listen to this podcast. First of all, it’s not for them. It’s to keep women safe. And I don’t want to give abusers a checklist of things to do to appear safe when they are not.
Observing Actions Over Words
Anne: The thing that concerns me is any talk. Whether it’s about what they used to do or what they’re working on not doing now, as grooming. I am not opposed to honesty. But what is the intent of the honesty? Is it a fake sort of vulnerable honesty to give the victim the impression that he’s honest? He told me these certain things. Not realizing that there are many other things that he’s keeping secret when he uses emotional abuse to cover up infidelity.
The whole thing is problematic. I do think abusers can change, but the question for victims of abuse is. Are they safe currently? Is this grooming or is this current safe behavior? If it’s not safe behavior, then we need to distance ourselves, set boundaries, take a step back and observe from a safe distance.
We cover all this in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. We have a section about abuser questions and how to see the questions for what they really are. Because words just don’t matter so much. We need to watch actions. So the best thing for victims to do, I think, is not to ask the abuser, are you in recovery? What are you doing? But just make boundaries for her safety. And from a safe distance, observe what types of actions does he take to ensure her safety?
For example, if she says, Hey, I feel unsafe. I would feel safer if you moved out of the house. So he moves out of the house. Does he shut down her bank account? That would be a sign that he’s unsafe. Or is he making sure she has enough money for food, housing, all the things she needs? Watch the actions.
Listener’s Second Question
Anne: Here’s the second question. He says that on one of the episodes. That a guest said, or words to the effect that men in recovery like to talk about themselves. And when they talk about their recovery, or where they are in recovery, they have not changed. And they should not talk about it. I am not saying these men should not talk about it. I say it doesn’t matter if you do. That’s all. You can talk about it all you want, but women don’t listen to their words. Watch their actions.
Whether he wants to talk about recovery is up to him. I’m not saying whether he should talk about it or not. Because abusers frequently use words for grooming. I’m telling victims, don’t put too much stake in any of his words, regardless of what they say. Let’s say he says, “I hate you. I’ve always hated you. You’re unattractive. You’re the worst.” That’s also something to just dismiss, because he says that on purpose to harm you, there’s always a goal.
He says, “Cannot I be excited about all I have learned and share it to try and pass the word and teach others before they end up like me, or worse?” Go ahead. What is the goal? Is it to manage your image? Is it because you’re excited? Are you genuinely changed? Take some time, observe your own behaviors.
And again, this podcast isn’t for abusers. It’s for abuse victims, but that sounds dangerous to me. What are they doing that for? Were they caught? And they’re trying to tell everyone, you know, how amazing they are. He says, I also think of it as accepting Jesus and wanting to tell the world what I did.
Emotional Abuse And Infidelity: Spiritual Abuse & Genuine Change
Anne: Most victims have heard, don’t you believe in Jesus, don’t you believe in the atonement? It just is spiritual abuse, if an abuser believes in Jesus and accepts him, great, his behavior should change. The interesting thing about these questions is that he’s not even mentioned, doing, which is what concerns us as victims, right? That’s what we want to see.
He says, “I’m so excited about learning that I was an abuser, and I want everyone to know what I’ve learned.” And then he says something interesting, “I honestly do not care if it’s brainwashing.” As if what, women are brainwashing him to think he’s an abuser? So there is this element that like, maybe it’s not true, but I’m going to do it.
Because then he goes on to say, if it works and changes me to no longer abuse or rape my wife. To be completely open and honest, living authentically in all areas of my life. And being an example to my, and it goes on and on about John one and how to correctly love and treat my wife. And to me, it’s all talk. That’s what concerns me about these questions. Less talking and more doing from abusers is what victims need to see.
This also concerns me, because he says after one of the podcasts that discussed planning for divorce secretly, because they do not know how the man will react. This is why women should prepare for divorce carefully.
Yes, that’s what all domestic abuse advocates and experts recommend, right? You need to plan ahead when you face emotional abuse and infidelity.
Planning For Divorce & Respecting Boundaries
Anne: And then he says, so I asked if my wife or ex-wife, he doesn’t say if they’re in divorce proceedings or what, would let me call her. If she doesn’t want you to call her, then don’t ask her if you can call her. That’s not respectful. If she says please don’t call me, and then you say, “Can I call you?”
And you think, I’m respectful because she said not to call her, and I’m just going to ask her. No, this is a very gaslighting quote, and this is one that I hear abusers say a lot that are not changed. And he says this, and I’m just going to read it. He says, “At this point, I made the hardest decision against my wants and desires. And let her know that her feeling safe should she decide to divorce me is important to me.”
“And I did not want her worried about how I would react.” Basically, he wants to say, look, I want to find out if she wants to divorce me. I’m afraid she’s going to surprise me, so I’m going to try to intervene here and manipulate her into telling me when she probably shouldn’t be telling me, whether or not couples should stay together after infidelity.
I’m worried this guy is listening to my podcast to weaponize it against his wife or soon to be ex-wife. That’s my main concern, that this guy’s weaponizing it. And if he’s still listening, please stop. Don’t listen to my podcast anymore. If you have changed, stop listening to the podcast to weaponize and bear up your reputation. It’s scary.
Manipulation & Weaponizing Information
Anne: Then on his own abuse, he says, it breaks my heart that men continue to abuse as I had done, but in very nasty ways. And goes on to say a bunch of stuff that I’m thinking he does. The reason why I did not want him to come on the podcast. Is because I’m worried he would use the podcast. And try to act like he’s so changed, through his words, to manipulate his wife into staying with him. When she does not want to, to continue his emotional abuse.
Because I’m not able to observe his actions or talk to his wife or ex-wife. These types of messages I get are problematic. So I just wanted to share with you that those are some of the things I receive from abusers. And I don’t want to give them air time to further manipulate. Here’s another one from a wife whose husband was totally into Betrayal Trauma Recovery saying he was, and he was like, hey, I’m completely into BTR.
It’s amazing, I’ve listened to it. it’s changed me. And then his wife said, be forewarned. My husband or ex, I’m not sure, has gone completely off the rails. He’s now actively calling men he recommended Betrayal Trauma Recovery to. And telling them how incredibly horrible and damaging it is. It’s interesting because he was trying to groom his wife and be like, I listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s amazing. And he had a goal in mind.
When that goal did not work, I don’t know exactly what the goal was. But like maybe to move back in or maybe for his wife to talk to him again when it didn’t work.
Emotional Abuse And Infidelity: Abusers’ Control Tactics
Anne: Instead of staying the course and saying, okay, yeah, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is fine, I’m sad. She didn’t want to let me back in, but that’s her prerogative. He decided then to be like, nevermind, BTR is bad. And call everyone and say, you know, that thing I told everyone was amazing. It’s actually bad. Who knows if he actually did that? That’s another question I had.
He says he called everyone and told them how Betrayal Trauma Recovery is great. But my guess is he called one or two people. And now he’s calling them back and telling them it’s bad. Apparently, Betrayal Trauma Recovery teaches men that they just have to lie down and take any and all abuse from their crazy wives simply because they made a little mistake.
This is a very classic abuser move that they might a husband grooms his wife. for a minute to see if they can get back in the house or have the goal they want. And then they don’t want to give up their entitlements. They don’t want to give up their exploitative privilege at this point. So once they’re faced with what they would have to give up to stop abusing, wait a minute. I can’t even call her to ask if she wants to talk to me. Even though she’s already told me she doesn’t want to talk to me.
Wait a minute. I can’t move back in the house? Wait a minute. I’m not going to talk to her every day to manipulate her and convince her of my point of view. The wife gets concerned. So she reached out and said, I have no idea if he’d be bold enough to make a public statement against Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Understanding Abusers’ Perspective
Anne: But just so you know, he’s actively trying to turn men against you. And now he’s saying everything is the wife’s fault, because these men just have to lie down and we complain they’re not flat enough. Abusers want control. So they want power over. When things are equal, when the truth is laid bare. You observe their actions, and you are on equal ground, that feels like oppression to them. That feels like someone has power over them.
Because to feel equal from their perspective, and this is explained well in the book The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. To feel equal for an abuser, he must feel over. If he is actually equal, like the truth is out, you see him for what he is, you’re both living in reality. He feels abused. He feels oppressed. That does not feel like equality to him. Then abusers say things like, I’ve given up everything, and it’s not good enough, and now I’m the one being abused.
That’s just not the case. They’re just not able to live in that space where they don’t have power over. They feel uncomfortable and oppressed. The wife, the one warning me about him, she said. When he said this, I laughed out loud. His brain is twisted right now. It’s insane. He thinks he’s lying so flat, but in reality, he’s not. He still hasn’t given his entitlements up. He’s still not telling the truth. He’s still gaslighting and lying, which is emotional abuse all to hide and excuse his infidelity.
Final Thoughts On Grooming & True Change
Anne: The reason I’m bringing this up is that all abusers ask questions for a purpose. And usually it’s to groom or get information to weaponize. We cover all this in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. We just observe apathetically from a safe distance, because they want to control the narrative. And they can’t control the narrative if they can’t manipulate us with their words. You can observe from their behavior everything you need to know.
That is the point of this episode. Even if they seem like they’re doing great, and they might be, we don’t know. That’s the problem with abuse, is that grooming is part of that cycle, and they’ve used it before. We are incapable of deciphering grooming from true change at the beginning of recovering from abuse. It takes time. It takes time for a victim to escape the abuser’s realm of abuse manipulation. And step into reality, become strong and grounded to tell.
There’s no short-term way to know if what he is saying is grooming or true change. Because any abuser can groom with their words, but they can also act like it for a certain amount of time. And then when they feel like they’re in control, when they feel like they have their goal. Then you’ll see the behavior shift back to the obvious abuse from all the kindness, the questions, the nice understanding behavior is abuse if it has a goal, if the goal is power over.
Emotional Abuse And Infidelity Resources & Your Safety
And I might not know you specifically, but I know what you’re going through. My heart goes out to you, and I want you to know that we care about you as an individual. We care that you’re safe. And that you feel safe in your home. We care that you’re not emotionally and psychologically abused. We love you. And I’m praying for every woman in this situation every day
Do Good Men Exist? Truths Every Single Woman Will Appreciate
Jan 24, 2023
If you’re thinking about divorce or recently divorced, you may wonder, “Do good men exist?” Here’s what to consider if you’re worried about being single.
To learn more about emotional abuse, before you consider dating again, take our free emotional abuse test.
Transcript: Do Good Men Exist?
Anne: I’m more than excited to have my friend Gretchen Baskerville on today’s episode. She’s a Christian living in the Los Angeles area. She’s been doing Christian divorce recovery ministry in churches since 1998. She hears many, many heartbreaking stories of betrayal and abuse, as you can imagine. We’re talking about do good men exist.
They think I better make it work with this guy. They’re terrified to be single. Because I don’t want to be single, and it’s going to be too hard for me to find a good man. At the end, we’re going to address the question, do good men exist? And we’re going to start by talking about a different way to reframe being single. Welcome Gretchen.
Gretchen: It’s so great to be with you again, Anne.
Gretchen: You just said how happy you were to be divorced.
The Hard Decision Of Divorce & Myths
Gretchen: And I truly look back now, 25 years later and say, divorce is the hardest decision I ever made. But it was also one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. And because we as Christians, as people of devout faith, we take marriage very, very seriously. We don’t believe in I’m bored divorces or I miss the party life divorces.
We hang in there. And we hang in there oftentimes longer than is good for us and for our children. As a devout person of faith. I am against frivolous divorce, but I am 100% in favor of life saving divorces because it saves the life of parents and children.
So let’s jump into those myths. I think the first myth, especially as a person of faith, at least in my upbringing, was you’re really nothing without a husband. After going through trauma you may wonder, do good men exist? You don’t have an identity without a man. For those biblically oriented, I would say there are plenty of women who are heroines in their own right in the Bible. So, for example, Ruth is already a heroine before meeting Boaz.
Deborah, Abigail, Dorcas, look at the midwives in the story of Moses’ birth. I mean, they were amazing. They stood against the great pharaoh of Egypt. As I came through this, and of course the first two years of divorce, my life was just topsy turvy. I just didn’t know which way was up. I was really numb for the first six months. And I started reading single women’s missionary biographies. I know that sounds crazy, I’m sure you’ve got some on your reading list.
Societal Pressures & Misconceptions
Gretchen: They were so inspiring to me, because here are these women who go to some foreign country and are virtually alone. They have very little support, and because they’re not married, they don’t fit into any society. And yet they do amazing things. I soaked myself in these kinds of stories. I realized, God called plenty of women to do great things.
And God didn’t call us to stay in these marriages to enable sin, cover up sin, pretend sin didn’t exist, what you call wickedness. He didn’t call us to bring up our children in a wicked home. My first myth is that you’re nothing without a husband. I think it’s just false, because the Lord uses people wherever they are. and he empowers and strengthens. He didn’t put us on this planet to cover up sin.
Anne: I did not marry until I turned 30, almost 31. I’ve only been married once, and I remember vividly right after high school, I worked at a video store. A woman from my church came in. And she said, Oh, who are you dating? I said, I’m not dating anybody right now. And she said, Oh, I’m so sorry. You don’t have a life.
Gretchen: Oh my.
Anne: And I remember thinking, I’m going to graduate from college. What are you talking about? That I don’t have a life. I have friends. I have interests. Am I literally nothing to you? Because I don’t have a boyfriend? And that idea that women aren’t anything, if they don’t have someone to define them, is crazy. Women can do amazing things, all by themselves. So let’s look at the second myth.
Do Good Men Exist? Build Freindship With The Good People Already In Your Life
Gretchen: All right, this one’s embarrassing to me. That women’s friends in your twenties are just placekeepers until you find a man, your soulmate. Women friends aren’t all that valuable. They’re disposable. I’m embarrassed to tell you that in my upbringing, marriage was promoted so much that this is the direction it went. Nobody actually taught this verbally. This was never spoken, always unspoken.
Wow, was I wrong! So I got divorced in 1996, and in 1998 at my church, I met in one of the Sunday school classes, a woman who was raising four kids by herself with almost no child support. I had two kids, and I was completely in awe of her. It was difficult for them. They had this old clunker car and a shabby tiny little apartment. But they had love, safety and acceptance, and we got to be best friends.
Every Saturday, we would walk down the street together for an hour at the beach. We live near the coast in Los Angeles area. She was an introvert and I was an extrovert. So we just made sure that we each got about 30 minutes to share. Then we prayed for each other at the end of our walk. And together, we started a group for other single mothers in our church. And this small group was absolutely fantastic. We were supporting each other, not worrying about, do good men exist.
I have never seen so many strong, courageous women knocking it out of the ballpark every day. We had teachers, a swim coach, a small business owner, a childcare provider, a paralegal, a homeschool mother, a manicurist and a disabled woman. We were all proud survivors, and our own community. If you feel the need for support, join Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Group Sessions.
Closeness Of Caring
Gretchen: We were like heroines to each other, and we shared our hope and our experience with one another and prayed for one another. Sometimes we helped each other financially. And when you do that week after week for years, you realize that this is the best group you’ve ever been in. Whether Bible study or church, small group or adult education, it is absolutely so powerful.
There was so much emotional closeness and caring, and women would come to our group from other churches. They’d come to our group and cry for the first three weeks. And then they would sense the Lord’s presence, and they would start to feel that hope and faith. There is something special about the dynamic of women friends when there’re no men around. First, there’s no sexuality to motivate you or cover up one another’s slights.
https://youtube.com/shorts/lc2hcxe1ZKU
We have to put in effort to keep our women friends. We have to learn to behave well. And have to learn to take turns paying for coffee. We have to learn to hold up our end of the friendship.Those are such wonderful, maturing character traits to learn. As you can imagine, when you’ve done that for 15 years with an amazing close cadre of women. When you start dating again, I started comparing all the men to these close girlfriends, I kept wondering if good men even exist.
You know, probably like you’ve experienced, most of them couldn’t hold a candle to my girlfriends. I mean, they didn’t have authenticity. They didn’t have integrity. They weren’t as financially responsible as my single mom friends. And so it was pretty easy to identify and ditch the losers, because I had the loving warm community around me.
The Impact Of Abusive Relationships On Friendships
Gretchen: And I think that’s one of the most powerful things, and this is something that anyone can do in their own church or ward. They can start a group like this. It just becomes wonderful. It’s easiest to start it at the same time other groups are going on at the church. So there’s free childcare, but this becomes an amazing place for fellowship.
Anne: And for those introverts out there that are like me, who might not want to like start a group. Because that feels overwhelming, just making one friend to go for a walk or doing something with the friend regularly, can help.
Gretchen: um,
Anne: And that’s also a good place to start. It feels like when women find our community. Their abusive spouses think like, Oh, they’re a bad influence on you, right? Because they start setting boundaries. They start being more healthy. And start maybe doing more self care, and then the abuser doesn’t have as much control. And so that feels uncomfortable to him, and he tries to undermine it. Abusive men would also likely try to undermine women’s friendships with other women.
Gretchen: At least in my church, the unspoken message is, if you’re a godly woman and have done your best to be a radiant virgin bride on your wedding day. That you’re going to get this incredible, emotionally intimate, connected spouse. This husband, and you’re going to have a mind blowing love life. Teachers taught this. It’s a form of what I would call prosperity gospel. If you’re good, you’ll get a good man.
If you’ve got some secret sin or you’re covering up something, well, then you’re going to get someone bad. But I mean, I don’t know how you could be more of a goody two shoes than I was as a kid. I wasn’t perfect. Obviously nobody’s perfect. But man, I got in trouble for staying up till midnight reading my Bible, okay? I was part of youth groups, youth choir, and everything. And all my friends were Christians.
And yet I married someone with serious, serious character issues. I know you talk about those kinds of things all day long, so we won’t go into that. In my case, it wasn’t so much abuse, as it was immorality, covert, chronic, scary and illegal.
Anne: Which is, by the way, abuse.
Gretchen: Yes, yes it is.
Anne: Criminal sexual behavior is abuse, they’re a registered offender and abuser. The emotional abuse, psychological abuse, lying, gaslighting and all that is all occurring. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, infidelity is abuse. They’re abusing the relationship. They’re abusing the marriage and your trust.
Gretchen: Any kind of betrayal is abuse, emotional abuse.
Anne: Yeah.
Gratitude For Girlfriends
Gretchen: And when you’re always wondering what’s going on with that other person, because they live a completely separate second life, a hidden secret life. Yep. I mean, you never know when the other shoe will drop. I worried, you know, will my name be on the front page of the Los Angeles Times? This is awful stuff. So yeah, it’s definitely abusive. I agree with you.
Anne: Yeah, I am so grateful for my girlfriends. Girlfriends that I made in my late twenties when I was single. And are still my best friends today, who have stuck with me. They have been my support and strength. And also, my sister and my mom have been an amazing support system to me. I’m grateful that I had time in my twenties to develop that. So many women, especially women of faith, are married early.
And so when they find themselves divorced, they haven’t had that experience of maybe making adult women friends. And so instead of being like, I don’t know how to do that. If we have that growth mindset to say, I have the opportunity to do that now. You’ll find real, true, emotional intimacy. And platonic love with your girlfriends, and it’s really, really amazing.
Gretchen: It is really something. My family raised me in a very devout conservative family. I thought divorce was like the worst possible thing that could happen to me. Even though I had valid grounds, it somehow reflected and told the world that I lacked personal maturity or spiritual maturity. So I was pretty eager.
The Reality Of Post-Divorce Life
Gretchen: Straight out of my divorce, you know, I thought, Oh my goodness. I hope I remarry fast. I wasn’t as far along as you are, Anne. Looking back now. I’ll be vulnerable and honest. If you had told me I would be single for three years, I might not have filed for divorce. If you told me I’d be single for five years. I would curl up on the floor in fetal position, sucking my thumb.
And I ended up divorced, a single mom for 20 years. And I’ve got to tell you. The Lord just completely rebuilt my life. He restored the years, the locust ate. It took me a while to get back to my normal level of happiness. And then I went through a lot of court abuse. There was a lot of post separation abuse from my ex-husband. 10 years of my husband dragging me into court over and over, with him wanting joint custody. And me saying, you know, over my dead body. I wanted to build my life on my own and not worry about finding a good man.
What I found is that as the Lord carried me through each day, every 24 hours, I was still alive. I did not always get the answers to prayer I wanted. God often answered later than I wanted him to answer. And he didn’t give me the answer I wanted. Looking back, I see that it was what was best for me. It wasn’t what my church had told me was the ideal situation. I can honestly say at year five, I was happier than I had ever been in my life. That’s year five after separation.
Do I Need A Good Man: Contentment In Singleness
Gretchen: And by year seven, I had completely rebuilt my financial stability. And that felt great. It felt great to store away money for retirement. And feel like, you know what, even if I never remarry, there are many women who don’t ever want to remarry. A survey done a few years back showed that four in 10 were absolutely sure they did not want to remarry.
And I found myself getting very, very content, and really even enjoying my singleness, and wondering if I could adjust to the constriction of my friendships, if I ever remarried.
Anne: Yeah, I was single. until 31. Then police arrested my ex when I was 37 and my youngest was 11 months old.
Gretchen: Oh, wow.
Anne: And now I’m 44. So since 20, that’s 24 years, I’ve only been married for seven of those. Singleness is familiar to me, and I enjoy it. But post divorce, the first, two, three, four years are really hard. Even though I was happy to be divorced and proud that I was divorced, and for surviving what I had been through. It was about year five, six, seven that I started to feel like, Oh, this feels good.
So I don’t want to misrepresent this. And say like, once you divorce, everything will be amazing immediately. You have to rebuild your life, and it takes time, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And you will be okay whether or not you know, find a good man.
Gretchen: The idea that all your problems will disappear, you know, two to three years after your divorce. No, that’s just not going to happen. What I tell people is that you’ll return to your normal level of happiness within two to three years.
The Importance Of Prayer & Faith
Gretchen: I’m a person who was dragged into court for the next ten years, and I can tell you I was on my knees in prayer. I asked people to pray for me. I was frightened, I had insomnia, all kinds of things just begging the Lord. Please affect the mind and heart of the judge. You know, I need help here. I can’t have shared custody with this man. So, when I say that by year five, I was happy, that doesn’t mean my external circumstances had all resolved themselves.
But there’s something about watching the Lord rescue you day after day, week after week, month after month, that you start to realize, okay, he’s got my back. And that’s really important.
Anne: I relate so much. I went through that exact same thing for eight years post divorce, and was praying and praying. And the Lord led me to the strategies I now teach in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. And they helped me so much. Of course, I had to get them into a workshop once I learned them and once they delivered me. It was a miracle to see that come together. I was doing great independently, not worried about finding a good man.
I was shocked that my prayers had been answered, but also not shocked, because I had been praying for it for so long. And even though I give all the credit to God, I feel like those strategies he gave me apply no matter what your situation. Because they’re not specific to whether you’re married or divorced, they’re not specific to what he’s doing. They’re principles and strategies that can be applied in any situation.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop
Anne: Really quick, you said something, you’ll get back to your normal level of happiness. I want to acknowledge that there are women in our community who perhaps married at 18 or 20. They didn’t have the opportunity to even explore that before they married their abuser. And then for the next, maybe 10, 15, 20 or 30 years , they were being abused continually. And so they might think, what is my normal level of happiness? I don’t even know who I am. I don’t know what I’m doing.
It’s also an opportunity to not just go back to your “normal” level of happiness. But also decide who you want to be and the kind of life you want to live, and start working toward that. There are exercises to help you do that in The Living Free Workshop. I wanted to include healing exercises in the workshop to help women move forward.
Gretchen: It’s absolutely fantastic. One of the little things that really, made me feel alive was learning how to fix basic things around the house by watching YouTube videos.
Wow, I believed fixing things was a man’s job, and that makes you feel helpless. The first time you watch a basic YouTube video on how to change the flapper on a toilet. And you do it yourself, and you go, wow. I mean, I’d have to watch these YouTube videos like five times. Okay. I’m ready. I’m ready, I’m going to do it. But the sense of accomplishment you get standing on your own two feet is priceless.
Do Good Men Exist? Overcoming Myths & Misconceptions
Gretchen: There are so many myths that we get in our religious communities. If you’re divorced and haven’t remarried, you must be spiritually lacking. You must have some secret sin, or maybe you’re not mature. Another big myth that I see in churches is that if you divorce, you’re going to bring your problems into the next marriage.
And it’s going to fail too. Which is an ugly, ugly thing to say. And it totally ignores the fact that you weren’t the cheater, you weren’t the abuser, you weren’t the addict, and you’re not bringing them into your next marriage. Another one is that if you were just godly and prayed.
Anne: As if you’ve never prayed about it ever. Then they tell you the story of the night they prayed to find their righteous husband. And the next day they met them at the dance. And because they had that experience, they assume the reason you’re single is because you don’t talk to God, apparently. You have just been surviving, not looking for men to rescue you.
Gretchen: Yeah, it’s offensive that they would, assume that about us. You know, obviously you did something wrong. That’s the automatic knee jerk reaction.
Anne: You either did something wrong or you haven’t done the right thing.
Gretchen: Yes, okay, omission or commission, exactly. At any rate, you could have fixed this had you just done something different. And you know, life isn’t that way. I mean, the rain falls on the just and the unjust. Some of the most evil people have had these charmed lives. You know, it just doesn’t work that way.
The Role Of Self-Examination & Boundaries
Gretchen: If you did a lot of self examination and turned yourself inside out. And tried to find that secret sin and uncovered it, that God suddenly brought you the love of your life. Another one is that you’re being punished for something. And that’s rarely spoken. That’s kind of just this undercurrent that you’re being punished.
I’ve found women who maybe slept with their high school boyfriend one time, and then they ended up marrying an abuser and felt like, okay, this is God’s punishment. I deserve it, and I have to stay in this. And then I’ll never, ever find a good man to marry.
Anne: Even that they slept with their abuser before they were married, and their punishment is then that they have to be married to them forever.
Gretchen: Yes, yes, yes, I hear that a lot too. I slept with him, so I had to marry him.
Anne: I didn’t feel right about it and I’ve been trying to work it out ever since. He’s been abusive ever since. if you’re Christian, Christ came to deliver you. He came to save you. So if you made that mistake of sleeping with your abuser, and you feel like you have to stay married to him, that’s not what Christ would say. He would say, I came to redeem you, save you, and to deliver you.
Gretchen: When we actually look at the life of Christ. It’s a whole different ballgame than some of these covert messages we’re getting from our spiritual communities. So for example, Luke 13, I call Luke 13 my favorite divorce story with Jesus, except for it doesn’t mention divorce anywhere.
Christ’s Teachings On Deliverance
Gretchen: So Jesus is in the synagogue, and he sees a woman who has been disabled by an evil spirit for 18 years. And she’s hunched over, and he calls out to her. It’s the Sabbath and says, come and be healed. She takes the step. Now, she knows that the synagogue leaders are not gonna like this, but she is courageous, and she takes the step toward Jesus. And He heals her.
Oh my goodness, the synagogue leaders go nuts. They say there are six days a week that you can heal people, but that’s work. This is the Sabbath. You can’t work on the Sabbath. And they tell the rest of the crowds of disabled people to go away, and Jesus is having nothing of this. This is Luke 13 again, and he says, you guys on the Sabbath, you take your donkeys and your oxen and water them. You treat them well on the Sabbath.
This woman is a daughter of Abraham, and you’re treating her worse than a donkey. She is a precious daughter. Jesus isn’t having any of this sanctimoniousness. He came to release us from evil and deliver us from evil. And that’s, the prayer many of us pray regularly. Are we going to take that prayer seriously? Do we want the Lord to deliver us from evil? Yes, that’s what he came to do.
Anne: Yeah, so you were mentioning things like trying to find your own secret sin, trying to make yourself perfect. For the agnostic or secular women who are listening, thank you for listening as we share stories from our own faiths. Your goodness should exist for your own self not just for a good man.
Do Good Men Exist? Secular Myths About Singleness
Anne: Some secular myths might be like, you need to work out more. Or if you were fun, or if you were easier to talk to, maybe you’d be married. My dad was ridiculous when I was in my twenties, and he always said things. Like, well, maybe if you made them a basket of brownies and wrote a nice note. Did you say at the end of the date, I had a good time? I enjoyed your company. I would like to go out with you again.
And I’m like, Dad, there’s not some formulaic thing, and if you do these steps, you will get married. Also, I’m not married, because I’m not doing some certain thing. We’ve all met women who are socially awkward. I might be one of them. Or they might not be “the most attractive” or something like that. Who have loving husbands. Who have good relationships with non-abusive men. Do good men exist? Yes, but you don’t have to be perfect. When people say, well, you’ve got to put your best foot forward,
Gretchen: Right, right.
Anne: I say, no, because I don’t want someone to fall in love with my foot. I want them to fall in love with me. So I’m just going to be myself.
Gretchen: I love that.
Anne: I would tell my dad, he would just shake his head and be like, oh, Anne is never going to get married. She just doesn’t get it. And so that was also, I think for me, an extra hard thing. That at 30 I get married, and it feels like this miracle to people, because they maybe thought I was never going to get married. Then to get divorced after that.
Rejecting Stereotypes & Embracing Authenticity
Anne: And be single again is like, oh, so she is meant to be single. Yes, and you know, what’s funny is I’m like, maybe I was, I enjoyed being single. It’s awesome. Like maybe that is God’s will for me. Maybe I operate the most happily in the world as a single person.
Gretchen: Yeah, absolutely, because I think singleness has tremendous advantages. Just the freedom to do whatever you want to do, whenever you want to do it, is amazing. And the freedom to have friendships with such a wide variety of people. But I wanted to go back to what you said, where we have to feel like we have to fulfill this womanly mold. You know, like your dad’s saying, make the brownies, you just have to reject the myth that all men want this.
All men want you to be feminine, sweet, and quiet, and a good cook and all that. And I thought, I’m sorry, that’s not me. I come from a car family, an automobile family, and I’ve always loved cars. I cried when my parents sold the first car I remember from childhood. And my father drove sports cars, not super expensive ones, but more like the little pocket rockets. And I knew what people were thinking.
Good Christian men see a middle aged single woman driving her Corvette, and they don’t find that attractive. They don’t like women who are confident drivers. Or they might say, you know, good Christian men don’t want women who attract attention to themselves. And so there’s these messages that you can’t be you.
Finding Love & Acceptance
Gretchen: And I remarried at age 57. So I was single a long time. I was plump, I was opinionated. I was used to having authority over men, because I was a top executive in a company. And I had many men reporting directly to me. I just came to the point in my life where I’m not going to apologize for who I am. And lo and behold, a man came in my life with whom I had worked about 10 years before.
And we liked each other, and he loved who I was. He loved having an outspoken, fast driving, girlfriend and wife. And we have had a lovely, lovely marriage for over five years now.
Anne: That is wonderful. It’s interesting Gretchen, because people ask me. You get to know thousands of victims in all your work, women who have been abused by men. Because we only deal with that here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Do you just hate men, or do you see abuse in all men? And, the more I’ve learned about abuse, the more I’ve learned to recognize healthy behaviors. Actually, I have more hope now than ever. I have healthy men in my life now that I really appreciate.
One of them is my uncle, who has helped me so much with so many things. I just talked with him yesterday, and we have such a good, sweet relationship. I appreciate my aunt, who I don’t talk to her often. And my relationship with my dad, brothers, even my dentist, colleagues, or my best friends husbands who are supportive of me. When I’m at their home having dinner, we get along well. Do good men exist? Yes they do.
Do Good Men Exist? The Importance Of Safe Friendships
Anne: They ask me how I’m doing, and I feel like I have a good relationship with them. So it’s been interesting to see how many healthy men there are, and how comfortable and peaceful I can feel. And how supported I can feel. It feels good to start there with friendships, because then I know more about what I’m looking for when it comes to dating when I choose to date. Like as we separate ourselves from abuse, we can also see the healthy behaviors in the men in our lives.
Gretchen: Yes, you mentioned the uncle or a good friend’s husband, somebody very, very safe. I mean, I think we need to retrain our minds. When we’ve been hurt to realize that real men, good men, safe men, want mutual support, integrity, emotional honesty and closeness. They aren’t into seduction and manipulation, and love bombing. And, of course, there are people we can’t trust. There are men we can’t trust, and there are women we can’t trust.
But in 20 years of having close friendships with safe men, I have been able to weed out the bad ones, and I never had any trouble with the good ones. And it’s based on having good boundaries and watching them. Okay, so a man with good boundaries is like this. A man who’s safe. A man who cares about my well-being, not just love bombing me, is like this. I worked in a male dominated industry, so men surrounded me all the time.
Do good men exist? Yes, they proved to me year after year that there were many good men out there. Now, I will say that in 20 years, I did have two step over the line, and I immediately distanced myself from them.
Healthy Men & Boundaries
Gretchen: But I didn’t say, this is my fault for interacting with men, working with men, and confiding in men. This is that person’s problem. It’s not my problem. And I just moved away from them, stepped back. Just as we want to find good, healthy women, especially single moms, who are walking with integrity, courage and strength. At the same time, we know that they’re juggling fear, doubts and worries. The same thing goes for men.
And, every good person we have in our life who is respectful and has good boundaries helps us develop self respect and good boundaries.
Anne: Yeah, I’m thinking about addicts or abusers and how you could be friendly. And say, Hi, how are you doing? Just as a regular person. And they tend to think that women flirt with them.
Gretchen: Yeah.
Anne: Right, good men do exist? I’ve noticed that healthy men could be like, hi, how are you doing? And they’re like, I’m fine. How are you? They don’t think you’re flirting with them. And they think you’re just having a regular conversation. They don’t assume everything is flirting or something’s going to happen. Because they’re secure in the relationship they have with their wife or their situation. And so they’re free to just see you as a person.
And I want to tell one story of my best friend’s husband. He’s amazing. And the other day I was talking. And I said, the addiction industrial complex sometimes says things like, well women, you have to be safe enough. So that your husbands will tell you about their affair.
Interacting With Healthy Men
Anne: Or about their pornography use. And he just started laughing, and he was like, what? What are you talking about? Like, of course, they’re going to be angry. Does any man think like, Oh, she’s going to get angry, so I’m not going to tell her? His reaction was genuine, and it was so unfathomable to him that someone would think that.
And that’s the type of stuff that we get all the time with abuse or people trying to enable abuse. Where it’s like, well, this is the reason he did it. Rather than thinking, there is no reason. It’s ridiculous, and it has nothing to do with you. The reason he didn’t tell you about his affair was because he was trying to protect himself and keep having the affair.
It wasn’t because he was worried about hurting your feelings. So, interacting with good men sort of helps you see like, Oh, their reaction to this is different. Than the ten men my husband hung out with that were all addicts. Who were telling each other how hard it was, that their secretary was coming on to them when she wasn’t at all. When she was just sitting there doing her work.
Gretchen: Yes, only in their own mind.
Anne: Exactly, Gretchen, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
Gretchen: It has been a real pleasure, Anne. Thank you so much for having me.
5 Silent Red Flags In A Relationship – Ayla’s Story
Jan 17, 2023
Are you wondering if there’s something wrong with your husband or boyfriend? Here are 5 silent red flags in a relationship that you need to know. If you relate to this episode, did you know that there are 19 types of emotional abuse? Take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re experiencing this.
1. Coming On Strong Early On
Like most red flags, abusers will often come on very strong early on. In Ayla’s case, her abuser immediately began to love-bomb her with attention, a job offer, flattery, and affection.
Abusers may:
Tell you they love you
Ask you to be in a committed relationship
Initiate sex
Propose
Ask you to meet their family
Give you money or ask you for money
Divulge “secrets” early on in order to “bond” with you – but later you may find out these were lies
2. Isolating You (It’ll Seem Romantic At First)
The second red flag in a relationship is isolation. It may be hard to spot, because it can be camouflaged romantically. Abusers isolate victims by usurping their time. They spend every waking moment with the victim, which can feel romantic. They may condition the victim to feel dependent on them OR tell the victim that they (the abuser) are emotionally dependent on the victim.
Abusers often take up so much emotional and physical space. Isolation can extend to a physical move to where the victim doesn’t have any friends or family.
3. Pushing You To Have A Child With Them
Interestingly, abusers often request and then push for the victim to bear their child. This is a of the silent red flags in a relationship. Many abusers want their victims to get pregnant, because it’s a way for him to basically control you the rest of your life.
If he is talking about having a child with you early on, or after you have expressed hesitation, consider this a red flag. Having a child with someone legally ties you to them until the child is eighteen. This is a sure-fire way for the abuser to have contact with you and a degree of control in your life and the child’s life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvxpK9yloco
4. “You’re Saving Me” (Also Romantic At First)
Another silent red flags in a relationship is that the abuser may use phrases like:
I didn’t know what I needed until you came along.
I felt this void until you were here, now I feel whole.
When I’m not with you I feel empty.
I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life until I met you.
I need you. I’m not okay without you.
Now that I have you, I’ll be able to be a better man.
Ayla’s abuser coupled this “You are my savior” red flag with isolation when he moved their small family to the mountains.
5. Spending Time Studying Resources About How To Abuse Women (Calling You Out, Robert Greene)
One scary red flags in a relationship rarely discussed is the insidious and calculated effort that abusers take to learn how to abuse women. Books like The 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduction by the psychopathic author Robert Greene literally teach men how to coerce and abuse women. In Ayla’s situation, her abuser studied these books and used the tactics to brainwash and manipulate her.
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Ayla. She’s going to be sharing her story. As she shares her story, I’m going to be pointing out 5 silent red flags in a relationship you need to know. Welcome Ayla.
Ayla: Thank you so much. It’s an honor to be here and I look forward to talking with you today and the rest of the community.
Anne: So let’s start with your story. Did you recognize his abusive behaviors at first?
Ayla: At first, no. It was definitely one of those what seemed like a destined type of meeting. It was definitely more like a fairy tale at first. I was working at a ski resort. And he was a tourist with his extravagantly rich friend, who had talked me into joining in a supposed “business opportunity” with a non-profit. They totally stole my heart with that to convince me to quit my job there in the ski resort and then start this non profit.
Which after a month or two I realized was a complete scam and setup. Everything was hyperspeed, and that was another thing, now in retrospect, that was a red flag warning that I didn’t understand at the time. Technically, he stalked me. I didn’t put two and two together. I just thought he enjoyed my company. He wanted to help me get into a better financial opportunity with this non-profit that they were promising me.
The First Red Flag: Grooming
Anne: So that’s the first one of the silent red flags in a relationship, is coming on strong, early on, otherwise known as grooming. Where things happen very, very quickly. Then you leave your job and end up moving in together and having a child. Because you don’t recognize this as grooming.
The Second Silent Red Flag In A Relationship: Isolation
Anne: The second silent red flag in a relationship is isolating you. They get you to move or quit your job. And that happened to you as well. So now that you’re living together and have a child. That’s the hard part. Women don’t know that the great part was part of the abuse. So many times they’ll say, it was good. And then it went bad. They don’t realize it was bad the whole time.
Struggles In The Relationship
Anne: What types of things did you try to improve the relationship?
Ayla: Communication, however, he was so good with word manipulation and gaslighting. It always kept ending up that it was my fault for anything and everything that happened. He bashed my head into a door, I had a severe concussion. And he kept blaming that I wasn’t understanding things because of it. He blamed it on the hormones and everything when I was pregnant. So it was all my fault all the time.
I think when I continuously caught him in blatant lies with the gas lighting. That’s when I realized he might be mentally ill. I understood that I needed to be more particular and deliberate in how I created my existence alongside him. Especially since we were having a child together. He had a bad addiction to weed. I thought that was the main culprit so I didn’t recognize the silent red flags in my relationship.
I read a book called Tell Your Children the Truth About Marijuana. Which focuses on violence being a huge result of somebody who uses substances such as marijuana often.
Anne: Yeah, that makes sense. You’re thinking the reason why he’s been violent is because of his marijuana use or maybe a mental illness. I’m so sorry. Can you talk more about how he exploited you?
Ayla: I have a big heart. I used to do energy work and counseling. And becoming part of a non-profit was something intriguing to me. I wanted involvement in something amazing to help the community.
Exploitation & Lies
Ayla: So with being lied to from the get go about that. I felt that maybe it was just that one opportunity. Because he always had an excuse for something going on. So when we had left together to go to the mountains and start a new life, he said, oh, it was, it was his friend’s fault. That he was behaving the way he was. He said he needed to get away from the bad influence and that coming to a new life will change him. He’s going to be a changed man.
And that was exactly what he needed. I was exactly what he needed in his life to become a better person. And so, of course, I believed it. But then I kept having to call the police to help me out. Because there were times when he wouldn’t even allow me to close myself off into a bedroom. To prevent him from yelling in my face, shoving me, pushing me, grabbing the baby from my arms, like horrible back and forth fighting. That I just was fighting for my safety to get away.
He wouldn’t even let me leave the house too. And he would take away the car keys. He also didn’t allow me to drive the car at times. He had control over that and didn’t register the other cars. So if I tried to leave, he said he would call the police and report the car stolen, and that I was kidnapping my own child. He put up surveillance cameras, wow big red flag, and he then spliced up video footage of me defending myself. I mean, what do you do if your husband filmed you with a hidden camera.
The Third Silent Red Flag In A Relationship: Pushing For A Child
Ayla: He said I have footage that I can show the police saying you were abusive towards me. I realized he had trapped me. He blackmailed me for about the two last two and a half years of our “relationship,” for everyone to call it that. So there were threats that kept an invisible prison around me in my life. My son was unfortunately the pawn to keep that control over me, because the threats were so real.
Anne: So I want to point out the third silent red flag in a relationship that you mentioned. Number three is pushing you to have a child with them. Because these types of abusers know that once you have a child, their ability to exploit, control and threaten you increases exponentially. So pushing you to have a child with them quickly is number three.
Ayla: I had another friend, in the same exact situation, caught into a relationship. And her abuser used a child to keep her in control. Because all he wanted from her was just a child. Like, my abuser just wanted a child from me.
Anne: Or at least that’s what he said. I mean, he manipulated you to feel like he wanted a child, but he wanted a reason to keep you trapped. So that’s why it’s so difficult. And so hard when you find out that it was manipulation the whole time.
The Fourth Red Flag: Manipulative Dependency
Anne: The fourth silent red flag in a relationship. You mentioned that he manipulated you by saying he needed you, that you were going to save him. that. He couldn’t do this without you. You mentioned this type of manipulation. I mean, you experienced overt, non silent abuse, like yelling. Or keeping you from leaving the house. And then you’re also experiencing this silent abuse.
In fact, this is narcissistic abuse. You discovered that he poisoned you to take pictures of you to use to exploit you online. Can you talk about that?
Ayla: One night he pushed very to get me to drink. That was the thing that we often did, but I knew he was doing the course of control with the surveillance camera called the domestic violence setup. So I knew that he already had that in his back pocket. The one night I kept refusing. I don’t want to drink anything. My intuition just said, no, not tonight. Stay away. So he handed me a drink, even despite me saying, I don’t want to drink. He’s like, just take one sip.
I’m like, all right. So I took one sip and gave it back to him. I said, see, I just don’t want it. I’m not in the mood. Then he dumped that drink out. He loves his alcohol, so I thought that was peculiar. So I asked, why’d you dump it out? Oh, well, I just don’t want to drink either, and he played it off. 20 minutes later, I felt really odd, sick. And I tried taking myself upstairs to the bedroom, and I just had to sit and collapsed on the stairs.
Poisoned & Trapped: Visible Red Flags In A Relationship
Ayla: Now my consciousness was still there. Because when somebody is given the Rufalin date rape drug, if they have enough alcohol in the system, their consciousness is not there. But because I didn’t have alcohol in my system that one night, I was still coherent. And I remember feeling him standing over my body and seeing flashes. He was taking pictures, which was scary. I couldn’t do anything. I couldn’t move. And then he finally picked me up and put me on the bed.
And shut me in there, and he put the baby in bed with me. So I asked him about it the next night. He said, Oh, it was in my imagination. And so I called the domestic violence center to see what they can do to help me. I didn’t know what to do at that point. I was so scared, if he did stuff like that to me.
Anne: Did you find the domestic violence shelter to be helpful in your area?
Ayla: Absolutely not, I was so surprised about how unhelpful they were. It was like chasing a mouse, trying to get them to help me. The woman wouldn’t return my calls in an appropriate time. I tried to get restraining orders, nothing happened. It took a year and a half, he almost killed my son, for them to finally step in.
And say, Oh, okay. Yeah, I guess we’ll help. And even at that they believed my abuser over me and gave up on trying to help me. Because of the camera footage that he introduced in court.
Seeking Help & Facing Challenges
Anne: I’m so sorry. Because he set that up on purpose, right? To splice up the footage to make it seem like you were the abuser, when you were just trying to protect yourself. I’m so sorry. That is awful. Everyone says call the domestic violence hotline, if you’re a victim. It’s going to be easy for you if you just reach out for help. I have found that is not the case.
And they also do not understand the coercion piece of this, the lying, emotional and psychological abuse that you’re under. So they’ll just think, what’s wrong with her? Instead of realizing that you are suffering from severe trauma, gaslighting and you cannot see straight. It’s not your fault, so instead of actually helping you, some blame you. It’s a lot harder than people think.
And I found the same thing. Even though their purpose is to be helpful, that is not exactly what happens in real life. So, this is exactly why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because women need to determine his true character. And then know what’s going to happen next, so that they can anticipate it. These strategies help women determine what the right thing is for them and their particular situation.
The Fifth Red Flag: Studied Manipulation
Anne: To introduce this part of your story. So the fifth silent red flag in a relationship is that they actually study this type of manipulation. There are books about how to be a pickup artist, how to manipulate women, how to control women. I highly recommend that every single woman who listens to this podcast read the book Men Who Hate Women by Lara Bates.
She outlines all the ways in which they learn how to manipulate women, and they do it on purpose. You can find that book on our curated list of betrayal trauma books. Can you talk about that?
Ayla: He moved his stuff around, and had left them out and forgot to put them back when he went to work. I looked and found The 48 Laws of Power, which is a detailed brainwashing manipulation book. And then The Art of Seduction at the time, I overlooked it. I thought it was like a couple’s book. But when I researched it after I left, I realized it was a how-to manual about how to catch, a victim.
Ultimately, give them PTSD to make them controllable, discard them. And get a new victim and do the same thing over and over again. It’s just absolutely atrocious. The book uses the term victim 277 times. It uses the word prey 13 times, but it’s still there. It was so shocking, and it is banned from many prisons, state prisons across the United States. Because they understand how damaging these books are.
Discovering Manipulation Tactics
Ayla: And how bad it would be if these inmates started studying these books. Because that’s all they have is time when they’re sitting there. So studying this material would make them have more of a criminal mindset. When I found these books, especially The 48 Laws of Power, it was like that movie moment where the shift in view of the focused camera just completely zoomed in. And I realized, Oh my gosh, it has been a lie this entire time.
And then a few months after we met, after he put me in the hospital, he was never tried, never went and saw a judge to get a sentence. It was thrown out because his story was different from mine. But he sat in jail for three nights, and created this elaborate plan to get back at me. And to make sure that I suffered financially, emotionally, and that he was going to try to put me in jail. So that way I never knew my son and my son never knew me.
His words, I wish I had recorded it, but it was a bold confession of truth because he thought I was breaking up. I left finally a month later, when I finally mustered up the courage to leave.
Anne: A bold confession of truth and also a threat to keep you in the relationship. I mean, he was threatening you. If you leave, these things will happen to keep you there. So even if it’s true, it’s still a threat with the goal to maintain control.
Court-Ordered Visits & Continued Abuse
Ayla: Absolutely, and then I called the domestic violence hotline again to see about a restraining order. I was trying to do it quietly, and not have to see him one more time. So I called the police, filed a report. I had unplugged the surveillance camera. So he came home as I left with the police. They granted me a four year restraining order, even with very little evidence. I was grateful for that. It was a pure miracle. But that’s how I got out.
And I was legally abused for the past year and a half. I’m homeless, living with family. It’s so hard to It would be so hard to divorce without family support.I’ve lost everything. My car has been taken from me. The courts have forced me to continue to have my son keep a relationship with his father. So I am forced to travel once a month to have my son do two four hour visits in two days. I’ve spent over $9, 000 in the past 10 months.
I haven’t been able to get a job because of these trips, because I have to travel around five days for these trips. The plane tickets are too costly, so I have to drive. It’s a 10 hour drive. So, even after this fact, the courts are allowing the abuse to happen because they’re part of the abuse that is now happening in this aftermath. Finally, this last hearing a couple of days ago, the commissioner finally heard me after I spelled it out.
With the details and facts of I’ve spent over $10, 000. I’ve traveled over 50 days for them to do 60 hours of visitation. Outrageous, putting us in icy driving conditions, desolate unsafe areas.
The Court System’s Failures
Ayla: Staying in hotels where there are drug addicts outside. It’s absolutely appalling how much as a victim I was trying to get help, and my life has been completely ruined, blown to smithereens. I’m doing my best to stay grounded and positive, but I didn’t think it was going to be this way. I was anticipating and hoping my son was happy and healthy. And that I was happy and successful. I’m in a place of life right now, with my own home and a place to share love with my son.
For me personally, the hardest part of all this is the guilt that I wish I had disappeared a long time ago when I was pregnant. And he wouldn’t have found me. But now that I have to hand my innocent child over to our abuser. When the image I don’t think will ever leave my head is him throwing my son on the couch and nearly breaking his neck. The courts will never understand what he’s capable of. They believed it was an accident.
Oh, him bashing my head against the wall was an accident. Him nearly crashing the car, screaming in a rage, was an accident. You know, there were so many accidents that turn into that one fatality, and that’s the hardest part. So yeah, I’ve been following your organization on Facebook, and I always appreciate the work you have done. What you guys put out has been so helpful, because I understand that I’m holding hands with so many other strong people.
That went through similar things. It makes me feel so honored to know that the strength is shared from all of you to us. Who are deep in, in the trenches, helping us identify red flags in our relationships.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Opportunities
Ayla: So you guys, and your strength and opportunities for learning and progress, have been so wonderful and so helpful. I don’t think I would be nearly put together right now if I hadn’t found you and the amazing things you have put out. My domestic violence team, when I brought Robert Greene books to their attention. I’m not even kidding you. They scoffed and they said, Oh yeah, that culture. They were completely aware of it.
There is nothing being done to alleviate the damage Robert Greene’s books are doing. Or just dark psychology. I’ll just say dark psychology books in general. The authors attempt to say that people need to educate themselves on how not to be manipulated. If somebody’s completely unaware that they’re being manipulated, how can they even think they need to prepare for that kind of thing?
The situation and scenario when they’re completely innocent. Dark psychology is an abusive tool that needs to be discussed more, because children suffer. My son was caught in the middle of this. Because my abuser learned how to be an abusive manipulator because of psychology books. That hit home. That really hurt, you know, because my son is the most innocent angel, like all children. And they don’t deserve to be put in that position. It’s the worst when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.
I hope dark psychology becomes more of a talked about topic. I’m having the hardest time wrapping my head around that. My focus is so challenged, because I am still in shock in many ways about how everything transpired. How everything is still transpiring. I’m just blown away. And the fact that the court system is fostering this abuse in such a weird way that I was not expecting.
Gratitude Amidst Struggles With The Silent
Ayla: I want people to understand that the courts and the law are not always on your side. So we have to become more aware of preparing ourselves. And not be reliant or expect that the people who say they are there to help us may not actually be there or on our side. I’m grateful for my son every day. I struggle with the fact that I’m stuck to this abuser forever.
Especially when I’m driving at midnight and I still have five hours to go to try to get to this court ordered visit for my abuser. I’m driving in snow, and I’m like, where are my rights? To say that this is a scary situation that I’m putting myself in, and my child too. Yeah, abuser’s rights are more important than mama’s rights, my rights, my son’s rights. It’s surprising. I’m gonna say, this sounds bizarre, but I am thankful that my situation is not that bad compared to a lot of other women’s stories.
That I’ve heard. My heart just started sobbing with some of these other women that I heard in their children’s situations.
Anne: I’m so sorry to hear about the difficult time you’re going through right now. That is why I started podcasting. That is why I want women to share their stories so that we can all identify the silent red flags that identify abuse. They can be educated about the strategies I teach in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. They can start realizing all the challenges that have nothing to do with them. And have hope. I want everyone to have hope that safety is possible.
Taking One Step At A Time
Anne: And we can take one step at a time. You’re going to get there. You’re going to get there. So hang in there. And thank you so much. for sharing your story with everybody today.
Ayla: Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate you and all the amazing work you’re doing for all of us.
Emotional Battering: The Invisible Abuse No One Can See
Jan 10, 2023
Most people think emotional battering as something that is obvious.They imagine yelling, insults, or open cruelty.
But in many marriages, emotional battering is far quieter, and far more confusing, because it often hides behind what looks like kindness.
From the outside, he looks like a great guy. And yet, his wife appears to be the problem because no one else can see what’s actually happening.
That’s the invisible nature of emotional battering.
It’s not that a woman doesn’t know something is wrong. She does. Her body knows. Her instincts know. What’s missing is not her awareness, it’s recognition from the people around her. They’re responding to his image, not his patterns. To learn if you are a victim of emotional battering, take this free emotional abuse quiz.
When emotional battering is covert, each moment looks harmless on its own. A comment. A gesture. A joke. A “nice” surprise. But when you step back and look at the pattern, a very different story emerges—one where boundaries are crossed, reality is undermined, and her reactions are used as evidence against her.
Once you understand these patterns, the confusion lifts. Her responses stop looking irrational. They start looking like what they are: normal, protective reactions to ongoing emotional harm.
Here are seven signs of emotional battering that often go unnoticed, especially when the husband looks like a great guy to everyone else.
Her reactions don’t match his gestures. If he is doing something that seems nice, but she seems genuinely distressed, it usually means that she senses something that other people can’t.
If she seems on edge around his kindness. if she flinches at affection or looks uneasy when he is charming, it’s usually because she knows that kindness is hiding something that isn’t so kind.
If she watches him carefully, she’s probably gauging risk. Hyperawareness is an emotional survival skill. So if she’s been emotionally battered, it’s totally normal that she’s gonna be on high alert for emotional manipulation.
Feeling relief when you are away from him is a powerful indicator that something’s really wrong in your marriage.
She apologizes for things that don’t require an apology. If she’s apologizing for just stating her opinion, or talking about how she feels, it’s highly likely that she’s experienced emotional battering.
She adjusts herself to constantly keep the peace. His lies that she’s doing something wrong are part of the emotional battering.
Her friends notice that she’s not quite herself around him. A woman who’s trying to make herself smaller is not loved in marriage. If she seems quieter or less alive in his presence, that’s a sign that her husband is emotionally battering her.
What Is Emotional Battering?
Emotional battering is a consistent pattern of words, actions, or behaviors intended to diminish, manipulate, or control a person. Unlike physical abuse, emotional battering is more subtle and insidious—making it difficult to identify and even harder to explain to others. Your husband might lie to you constantly, manipulate you through kindness or fake loving acts. He may invalidate your feelings, or destroy your confidence with constant criticism and contempt.
Being married and experiencing emotional battering by your husband means navigating daily complexities that are draining and painful. Some common tactics include:
Gaslighting: Making you question your memory, reality, or perceptions. For example, he may say, “I never said that,” even when you vividly remember he did.
Constant Criticism: Regularly pointing out flaws, whether it’s your cooking, appearance, or parenting, to damage your confidence.
Blame Shifting: Making you feel responsible for his behavior or blaming you for problems in the relationship.
Stonewalling or Silent Treatment: Refusing to engage in meaningful conversations, leaving you feeling invalidated and powerless.
Public Embarrassment: Mocking or undermining you in front of friends or family to isolate you and damage your self-esteem.
Emotional Withholding: Withholding affection, love, or support to punish or control you.
How Others May Be Pulled Into Emotional Battering
Often, emotionally abusive men are charming to others but cruel behind closed doors. This charm can lead others—friends, family, or even counselors—to unknowingly contribute to your emotional battering. Here’s how:
Enablers: Some people might dismiss your claims because they see him as a “good guy” and can’t imagine him being abusive. Phrases like “He seems like such a great husband” feel invalidating and painful.
Flying Monkeys: These are people he influences to support his narrative. They might approach you with statements like “You’re overreacting” or “He’s just under a lot of stress” or “You’re lying, he would never do that.”
Well-Meaning but Harmful Advice: Comments like “Marriage takes compromise” or “Have you tried being more understanding?” Can make you feel the abuse is your fault or that you’re not doing enough.
Social Isolation: He may paint you as overly sensitive, dramatic, or clingy to others, isolating you from the support you need.
Signs You May Be A Victim Of Emotional Battering
It’s important to understand the symptoms of emotional abuse. If these resonate with you, you may be experiencing emotional battering:
Constantly doubting yourself and your decisions.
Feeling like you’re “walking on eggshells” around your husband.
Experiencing anxiety or depression as a result of the relationship.
Struggling to explain his behavior to friends or family because he’s outwardly charming.
Feeling isolated or unsupported, even by those close to you.
Transcript: Emotional Battering: The Invisible Abuse No One Can See
Here’s Why Infidelity Is Abusive – What You Need To Know
Jan 03, 2023
It can be difficult to articulate why infidelity is abusive. It’s actually one of the 19 ways to emotionally abuse your spouse. To learn if you are experiencing abuse, take ourfree abuse quiz.
Christen Price from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation is on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to clearly articulate why pornography is image-based sexual abuse.
What Is Image-Based Abuse?
In general terms, image-based sexual abuse is a broad term that includes a wide range of harmful experiences involving the weaponization of explicit images or videos. In short, it’s pornography.
Image-based abuse (IBSA) may include:
Sextortion (threatening to share or post recordings of a person against their consent in order to extort something from them)
Collecting, swapping, posting, and/or sharing images or recordings of a person without their consent or if the consent was coerced
Coercing someone with money to do a sex act, which is also technically sex trafficking
Editing an image of a person to make it sexual, without their consent, and then sharing it
“Doxing,” or publicly revealing the name and information of the exploited person
This Is Why Image Based Abuse Harms Everyone
Victims of exploitation in the form of IBSA experience, first-hand, the abusiveness of the industry. But at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand that it is an abuse issue across the whole human spectrum.
If you have been a victim of Image-Based Abuse, you may experience significant trauma and need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
She engages in legal advocacy to end impunity for all forms of sexual exploitation. In her role at NCOSE Christen works to influence courts and legislatures. Toward protecting human dignity and equality on behalf of exploitation survivors, as well as resources to stop human trafficking. Through legislative advocacy, litigation, and support for other attorneys. Particularly in terms of trafficking, prostitution, child abuse, and image based abuse.
A little note about NCOSE, the National Center on Exploitation. It is the leading national nonpartisan, nonsectarian organization. That exposes the links between all forms of exploitation, such as child abuse and prostitution. Also trafficking, and the public health harms of image based abuse. We will link to all their information in the show notes.
Welcome Christen.
Christen: Thank you so much for having me.
Anne: I met Christen in person a while back. She impressed me with her passion for protecting victims. I want to jump straight into talking about image-based abuse. What is image based sexual abuse?
Forms of Image-Based Abuse
Christen: Image based abuse is a broad term. That includes a wide range of harmful experiences involving the weaponization of explicit or sexualized images or videos. IBSA involves creating, threatening to share, sharing, or using recordings without the consent of the person in them or for exploitation purposes.
So sometimes people call one form of this revenge pornography, but at NCOSE we try to avoid this term because it implies that the person victimized by it did something wrong to the perpetrator, and that this is some kind of punishment payback. But the reality is that men do this to women for any reason or for absolutely no reason at all.
Anne: Right! I’ve spoken to human trafficking survivors who share their experiences with this. When you say men do this to women. This podcast is specifically for women, victims of exploitation perpetrated by men. And so all of our listeners are women. Well, my intent is to help women.We do have some men listeners, but when you say that, does it ever happen the other way around?
Christen: It definitely happens the other way around. And also women can victimize other women, men can victimize other men. But the victims are disproportionately women, and the perpetrators are disproportionately men. And I think the figures vary somewhat.
In a 2017 US survey conducted with 3, 000 or so participants, one in eight people were targets of distribution. Or threat of distribution of intimate images without consent. Women were roughly twice as likely to be targets of this abuse. Compared to the men in that particular survey.
Recent News Highlights
Christen: But there was another survey by the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. And in their survey, over 90 percent of the victims were women, mostly between 18 and 30 years old. So there’s some variation there, of course. That IBSA affects women and girls disproportionately isn’t in dispute.
Anne: Because I advocate for women, I appreciate those statistics. And letting people know that this is a woman’s health issue. It’s important to women, especially my listeners. Are there recent news stories that highlight this issue?
Christen: So there is one. It wasn’t extremely recent, but I think it’s significant because it shows the level of impunity people at least think they have when they perpetrate this. They arrested the mayor of a town in Maryland, called Cambridge, late last year. It’s maybe an hour and a half outside of DC where I am. They charged him with 50 counts of non consensual distribution.
Much more recently, the CEO and the COO of Pornhub, or MindGeek, the company that controls it, have resigned. You know, this is in the wake of years of reporting, but especially over the last two years. Of how their flagship site facilitates and profits from image-based abuse in the United States. In all of its various forms.
Anne: When Christen says image based abuse, what I want you to think in your mind is pornography. This is what we are talking about. So husbands who are constantly on their phone looking at this stuff. Would you say all of it, or most of it, is image based abuse? For our listeners who are so traumatized by their husband’s use?
Image-Based Abuse Is Happening
Christen: So one thing that might be helpful would be to go down the list of the different things that fall under this category. And then you realize, wow, this is what is on sites and drives traffic to these sites. The whole industry, because it is an industry, is a profitable enterprise to exploit other people in this way. This obviously has implications, even for people who don’t end up portrayed on the websites.
There’s a sense that pornography use is abusive to people in general, especially women and girls. Because it’s incompatible with their full equality in society. If this is a way they can be portrayed with impunity. It has implications for everyone.
Christen: But just to go down the list of the different things that fall under image based abuse (IBSA). One is sextortion, which uses explicit images or materials that the perpetrator blackmails the victim. Or coerces them to produce increasingly explicit content. So that in exchange, the initial content is not released. So that’s sextortion.
Then, this is the one I think most people think of when they hear the term image based abuse. Non-consensual sharing of images. Which is sometimes accompanied by doxxing, which is you share the content. But then you add the person’s name, their address, or other identifying or locating information.
Anne: Many women in our community have had their husbands secretly video them in the shower or while they had sex in their bedroom. This kind of behavior is also what marital coercion is. They did not know. And then he posts that online, and other people watch it as “pornography.” Not knowing that they’re actually viewing abuse. That happens frequently to women in our community.
Non-Consensual Recordings & Harassment
Christen: Yeah, that’s actually the next one I was going to say, which is non-consensual collecting. Swapping and posting of these types of images in groups or in third party platforms. As you noted, if IBSA is used, absolutely. I mean, they didn’t have consent to take the image, let alone to distribute it. Non-consensual recordings of images or videos of other types of activities, they’re not doing anything sexual.
They expect they’re in a private context, like showering in the gym or even in their home or hotel room. So restrooms or locker rooms people put surveillance cameras. We call that downblousing or upskirting. Another form it takes is harassment or assault in virtual or augmented reality. So harassment through direct messaging or assault of somebody’s avatar. Like in a virtual context.
https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw
Sending unsolicited material, also called cyber flashing. Identity theft, where people take someone’s images to make artificial or photoshopped videos. It’s intended to portray them as though they’re really in it. We call that cheap fake or deep fake. And then pressuring or harassing someone to self generate or share explicit images.
So it’s quite a variety of offenses that fall under this category. And much of it makes its way onto massive public sites.
The Abusive Nature Of Online Exploitative Material
Anne: I would say the average user has no idea that it is abusive. In fact, when you educate them about it, they dismiss it. They’re like, whatever. In our experience, listeners of this podcast, you’re hurting our family and marriage. You’re also just flat out watching abuse, and it’s like, no, that’s not how it is.
Christen: Do you think people who say that read the tags for the material they’re watching? Because sometimes they tagg it as spycam or locker room or something like that. There’ll be clear indications that it’s not consensual. I’m not saying that’s always the case. But that’s a thing that they to drive traffic. They categorize things.
Anne: What I’m saying is they’re like, yeah, it’s a spy cam, but she doesn’t know. And she doesn’t even know it’s online. So why is it hurting her? One thing I have learned about abusers is they do not want to admit they are abusive. They don’t want to call it abuse. They want to call it anything else, because they want to continue to justify their behavior.
People call this stuff out there spy cam material, not abusive spy cam material. It’s disconnected. In fact, this was fascinating. I talked to a convicted offender. He was like, wow, his mind was blown. He never thought of himself as an abuser, even though he was a convicted offender.
Christen: Wow.
Anne: How prevalent is image based abuse, IBSA and who is the most affected by it?
Image Based Exploitation Is Abusive: Tags Don’t Reveal Abuse
Christen: It’s impossible to know what percentage of it falls under this, which is one of the big dangers. Because someone taggs it in a certain way. But it’s not necessarily going to be apparent that someone is watching abusive content. Once you put together the fact that this includes child sexual abuse material. Which is rife on the internet.
Anne: When you say child sex abuse material. Our community commonly refers to that for our listeners who don’t know, as CSCAM. I appreciate that NCOSE and many advocates are trying to change that language.
Christen: No, thanks for saying that. I meant to include that. It is still called child pornography in the law in most places. So that’s an important distinction.
It includes extremely violent and dangerous content. Which is pretty obviously harmful, regardless of whether they obtained consent. It includes the type of spy cam and other types of surreptitious recording or non consensually distributed content. So all that is abusive. All of that is exploitive, most of it is illegal in many jurisdictions. Much of what seems to drive traffic to some of these sites is this type of content.
A subreddit on Reddit, I think it’s called wife pic, has 250, 000 members. The abuse is prevalent and rampant. It’s a massive risk. Anyone who consumes it chooses to consume someone’s abuse. A Human Being Is Always Objectified
Anne: We take the stance at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, people disagree with me, and I don’t care. That all use is abusive, period. It’s abusive to someone, somehow. Someone’s coerced, lied to, manipulated and harmed. That is our stance. So when you’re talking specifically about image based abuse. I think you’re also specifically talking about criminal things. People are arrested for those things.
Christen: Yes, or at least sued, in some cases.
Anne: With our listeners, the abuse they’re experiencing, the emotional and psychological abuse, is not a “crime.” So they have a difficult time figuring out how to get help. But it is good for them to know that anyone consuming this type of material. Or producing it will have some danger to you.
Christen: Yes, there’s no exploitative material in which a human being is not objectified. That’s always present. So much of it is extremely violent and degrading, especially to women. Thinking it’s unharmful shifts the norms and expectations for all women. It’s like basically a form of propaganda. It conditions women to submit to violence rather than resist it, among other things.
Women and girls are most affected by it, disproportionately. So especially younger women and girls.
Anne: Yeah, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, even if the wives aren’t the ones filmed, our husbands use continues to affect us. When we think about the victims in image based abuse, and these degrading acts being visible to other people. Where do people generally post them?
IBSA Is Posted Anywhere You Can Post
Christen: They’re posted anywhere you can post things. Google will index searches for this type of content. I mean, it is everywhere. Some sites specifically devote themselves to sharing non-consensually distributed content. Really all over chat groups and texts.
Anne: It’s alarming to think about.
Christen: It really is.
Anne: Apps, anywhere you can find anything, you can find it. But I would say the public is not. When you’re trying to explain to people why exfoliative material is abusive, what arguments have you found useful?
Christen: Thinking about how it works as a tactic, and also thinking about the impact, I make it clear that’s the right category for it. Taking the standard definition of abuse, it’s typically a set of tactics. Usually it’s systematic or calculated. That one person uses to gain and maintain coercive control over another.
And it can be physical, sexual, emotional, financial or spiritual. Image based abuse fits squarely within that. It’s ultimately about maintaining coercive control over another person. Men have posted things because women wouldn’t go out with them, or because they broke up with them. And when we look at what effect it has on the victims, that also very much tracks with what we understand abuse to be.
Anne: Coercive control is the main theme. When it comes to the husbands. They’re doing the same thing, but it’s in a different way. So they’re using coercive control to manipulate, lie, to gaslight to hide their use. So they’re lying to them about their whereabouts.
Exploitative Online Imags Are Abusive: Lies & Hipocracy
Anne: They’re lying about their use of time or why they’re angry about something. Or they’re trying to gaslight to make sure their wife doesn’t know the types of things they’re doing. Because they want their wife to live in a different reality. But he wants his wife to think he’s a good guy.
That he’s a churchgoer, that he’s an upstanding member of society. So it’s that same coercive control to maintain the narrative. I’m a good guy. I’m a good husband. You, wife, you’ve got some problems. And if you would cook better, or if you would be more respectful of me, or if you would appreciate my job more. Then maybe our marriage would be good.
That gaslighting happens all the time. And that is why I want to hit home to the addiction recovery community. Or other communities that these men are abusers. They’re not just users. They are abusive to their wives. And it’s important for people to understand. That we’re talking about a specific type of trauma to the women being filmed.
Anne: Why is it so important to recognize that this is trauma? And people actually document it and then post it?
Christen: Yes, I think it’s exactly what you just said. Their trauma is posted. If I were to sum it up, I would say probably for the three reasons that it’s a really prevalent form of trauma.
Trauma & Its Manifestations
Christen: Going back to the statistics from earlier, it’s extremely destructive. People usually commit it with impunity. Impunity just means you’re getting away with it. You’re getting away with the thing in a way that is so clear and obvious, you have no reason to stop doing it. Other people watching what’s happening don’t have a reason to not do the same thing themselves.
Anne: Oh, this is happening in people’s families too. It’s amazing, the parallels between the two, the impunity with the divorce, or they’re still getting child custody.
Christen: Some ways the trauma manifests for the people depicted include high levels of anxiety, PTSD, depression, shame and humiliation, loss of trust and agency.
The risk of suicide is very, very high. Some 51 percent of people responding to one survey said they had contemplated suicide due to their experience with image based abuse. It’s also important to note that this is a form of abuse that never ends. Someone else can always share or upload the images. It may never fully go away.
It’s an abusive situation, a person may never fully exit. Survivors shared with us that their reputations are completely lost. They’ve lost jobs or had to leave jobs because of the level of harassment directed at them. When people realized it was them in the videos. They’re constantly anxious in social situations, wondering if someone has seen the content.
They’ve had family and other relationships destroyed because of this, so it, it really manifests. Like other forms of trauma.
Anne: So this past spring, the federal government passed a new law against revenge pornography.
New Federal Law Against Revenge Pornography
Anne: Can you tell us about the law?
Christen: It provides victims with the right to sue for non-consensually distributed content. If the person who disclosed it knew or recklessly disregarded the depicted person’s lack of consent. So when it allows people to sue for damages, it allows them to potentially get a temporary restraining order. Or an injunction, basically ordering the perpetrator to stop displaying or disclosing the image.
There are some exceptions that I think are a bit concerning about who can bring an action under this new law. So basically, there’s an exception called matters of public concern or interest. In my view, it is vague and appears to exclude any possible cause of action if something is deemed to fall within that category. And my perspective on that is famous or well known women shouldn’t be public property either.
It doesn’t address the rights of a person if someone is not well known. There was no public interest in appearing in content alongside someone who was. That’s one exception that raises a flag for me. And then there’s another exception related to commercial content.
Basically, it means content with people who appear under 30 if force does not produce it, fraud, misrepresentation, or coercion. They would accept that kind of content. In some ways, it means that the websites most likely to be exempt are ones most likely to have people under 30 exploiting younger people.
It also exempts the websites and people likely to profit from the display of the content. So if someone ran his own website with younger looking people. He couldn’t be sued by his wife or ex girlfriend for non-consensually posting her images on it. As long as she isn’t coerced to make the video.
Image Based Exploitation Use Is Abusive: The Issue of Consent
Christen: To me, these are exceptions that are worrisome, and ultimately I think make the law incomplete. But I think it can be useful for some victims to have legal recourse.
Anne: When you say consent, that word is just fraught in our community. Because women give their consent to marry, for example. They’re giving their consent to be in a relationship, but that doesn’t mean they give their consent to be abused. When you say, yeah, they consented to participate. But they’re not consenting to be manipulated or gaslit. This law is a he said, she said. Is the consent issue clear when it comes to this law? Or does it get caught in the same kind of rape/domestic violence problems? Where you can’t ever prove it.
Christen: It’s a good question. It’s hard to say right now, because no one has tried to use the law yet. I think a lot depends on how judges interpret it, and how it’s actually used. This type of law is not covered in the federal trafficking law, which covers it. The standard for whether something meets the definition of trafficking is whether it features a minor? Or was it produced through force, fraud, or coercion?
So in a sense, consent is arguably not a defense if people mean agreement. People can coerce you into agreeing to something. You can be deceived into agreeing to something. If either of those two things are present, the crime is still committed. So I think it remains to be seen if this specific law will take a similar view.
Legal Recourse & Coercion
Christen: It seems to anticipate that people may produce content through coercion and deception. That’s included in the law. It wouldn’t necessarily let you sue a commercial website, but it would let you sue the person who posted it. So they seem to anticipate coercion as possible in this context, but I think a lot will depend on how things end up being interpreted.
Anne: We’ve spent a lot of time talking about this. I know some of you listening are victims of this. Like your own husband has posted things of you, or you’re a victim of revenge pornography. You’re a victim of sexual abuse in this way. Many of you, I personally talked to you, and you have been afraid to press charges. Number one, because you’re not sure if you want a divorce, you’re not sure if things will work out with your husband.
I want to encourage you to do something. The best hope for your husband not to be abusive is to actually account for his crime. Even if you think there’s some chance it will work out. I still think if he were truly changed, truly repentant, truly non abusive, he would take accountability for what he’s done.
And so reporting it is an important step. So I know that reporting domestic violence, especially if it is your husband or your boyfriend, is important. It’s a safety issue, so I want to acknowledge that.
Resources For Victims
Anne: At the same time, there are resources available.
Christen: Yes, one of the main resources we recommend is the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. It’s specifically helpful for victims in the United States. They have a crisis helpline, and the number is (844) 878-2274, and you can talk to a counselor 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They also have an online removal guide. Which walks people through instructions for how to address content they found on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Tumblr, Google, Snapchat, and other sites.
And then they also have some international resources for people in Australia, Brazil, Israel, Palestine, Pakistan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the United Kingdom. Our main recommendation is definitely to contact them. Listeners are also welcome to contact the NCOSE Law Center. We do have a number of lawsuits addressing image-based abuse. Although at the moment, almost all concern child abuse victims. Adults who were minors when their content was posted.
We have lawsuits against big suppliers
Anne: Many of our listeners actually might be victims and might not know it at all. We are here for you. NCOSE is here for you. And the resources she just talked about are here for you.
If you’re a concerned woman and you want to advocate to make this world safer. You need to check out NCOSE at endsexualexploitation.org.
Pornography Use Is Abusive: Advocacy & Public Awareness
Christen: Speaking broadly, there is a market for this kind of content on Pornhub and all these other sites. Demand drives markets. So the first thing a regular person can do, especially men and boys, is not consume the abuse. This is a profitable industry. It is driven by the fact that people want to see this stuff.
I would also say if you’re in one of the two states that currently don’t have a law against this type of content. Definitely advocate with your local leaders for such a law. I think there’s a need to educate boys and men and the public about this issue in a way that puts the responsibility for it where it belongs.
I think that in many ways, as a society, the way we talk about assault has changed for the better. We’re not just telling women to watch out or blame them for not fighting back. You know, we recognize that it’s on men not to perpetrate, and I think the same applies with this issue.
We can’t just tell women and girls to watch out or be more careful. We need to teach men and boys not to perpetrate. Part of the importance of this abuse framing is doing that. It’s calling this thing by its right name, calling it by the term that shows how seriously wrong it is. And how seriously abusive to human rights.
The Importance Of Safe Homes
Christen: And I think that’s a big part of what any person can do with any type of gendered violence or abuse. To call the thing by its right name. I think so often men’s violence against women, abuse of women and girls, is disappeared by how we talk about it. Or the fact that we don’t talk about it. So I think that’s a big thing that any person can do.
Anne: I’m reminded of the Jackson Katz quote. “We talk about how many women were raped last year, not how many men raped women.” For our listeners, since they’re not men and boys, the number one thing you can do is get to safety in your own home. The number one thing you can do is learn how to get to safety yourself, and how to ensure your own home is safe. That’s number one.
When your own home is safe, the number two thing you can do if you want to get involved is check out the NCOSE Website. They have many campaigns there. You can get on their email list. I’m on their email list. I love it when I get their emails. Things like, sign this petition or send an email to your Senator. And they give you a template of things that you can do. So at least, that gives you some scaffolding to start making some progress.
If you want to do something, but you don’t know where to start. The NCOSE website, and they have a summit every year, and getting involved that way is a good way to start making change in the world.
Personal Reflections On Abuse
Anne: I want to say for me personally, when I was in my abusive relationship. I was so focused on addiction recovery, I didn’t understand it was abuse. So I went down the wrong road for a while. And I was also involved in the NCOSE and the anti-pornography movement, which was awesome. And I loved it, but I spent a lot of time trying to solve the world’s problems.
Not at that time to actually get to safety myself. And I have found that I am much more effective in making the world safer when my own home is safe. And it’s impossible to make the world safer, so that your home is safe. It’s much easier to make your home safe first, and then help the world, than the other way around. You can actually literally, within a few years, three to six years, actually make your home a safe place. It takes a long time.
It’s hard to learn boundaries. It’s hard to learn these skills, but it is possible. The fight and exploitation that we are all involved in, it’s like a worldwide battle that will take a long time. And so don’t wait for that. Don’t think, okay, well, when, the US passes a law that pornography’s illegal and my husband can’t watch it anymore, then I’ll be safe.
Please do not wait for that. Get to safety now. There is a peaceful and safe place.
Pornography Use Is Abusive: The Systemic Nature Of Abuse
Christen: One final thing from me, it’s just a broader point that I think reflects some of the things we’ve talked about I think the way people often perceive pornography can follow this pattern. Of the way that the invisibility of various forms of violence and abuse against women is invisible. Whether the abuser is a pimp, a husband, a boss, or a film producer.
Violence and abuse are not seen as political, systemic, as an attack against women as a class. And I think it’s important that we identify this as the sort of systemic thing that it is. Because it’s incompatible with gender equality in a society.
Anne: It is systemic, because when our listeners try to get out, they go to a therapist, they go to clergy, and they get like, oh, it’s a communication issue, or, oh, you’re just not having enough sex. They don’t get, oh, he’s abusive. I went to therapy for seven years with an emotional and psychological abuser who also coerced me. I did addiction recovery for seven years. No one told me I was abused. It is insane.
I go to a church with an on the books doctrine and policy that no abuse will be tolerated. And all my clergy were like, oh, he’s such a good guy. They didn’t know it was abuse. I didn’t know it was abuse. Because of that misunderstanding and not labeling it for what it is. Women are continually harmed. And men continually abuse with impunity. And it is absolutely systemic and dangerous, not just for women, but also for men.
The Need For Healthy Relationships
Anne: Because they can’t have a healthy relationship or have a peaceful, healthy life if they’re abusive. So, the answer for everyone is healthy, non-abusive interactions with other people, and non-exploitative interactions. So thank you for all your work again. I cannot stress enough how important their work is. Please visit their website, endsexualexploitation.org.
Anne: Christen, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
Christen: Thank you so much for having me.
Should You Stay Married After Infidelity? The Shocking Truth No One Talks About
Dec 27, 2022
Many women turn to clergy to ask, “Should you stay married after infidelity?” If you’ve been looking to God or clergy for answers (or even friends and family), here’s the truth no one will say out loud. The shocking truth might be that you’re also experiencing emotional abuse. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.
Transcript: Should You Stay Married After Infidelity?
Anne: Women go to clergy, they go to therapists, they go to their family to ask the question, “Should you stay married after infidelity?” Sometimes they just ask Google, even if you’re not religious, this episode will still help you. However, I totally understand. If you are not in the mood to hear a parable from the Bible. Even though I am telling a parable from the Bible today, I invite you if you’re atheist or agnostic to stick around to listen to the principles that I’m gonna talk about.
The principles will apply regardless of your paradigm or faith, whether you’re religious, or what religion you practice. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, everyone is welcome. I share from my own faith perspective, because this is how I’ve learned so many principles. But I think the principles are universal truths that apply in any situation. And I do not want to proselyte or convert anybody to Christianity. You are welcome here as you are.
What is the shocking truth about infidelity that no one wants to talk about? It is that infidelity is emotional and psychological abuse. So when it comes to deciding if you should stay married, there are some universal principles that I learned by studying Christ’s parables. And this parable is in Luke 18.
I use the King James version of the Bible. I find it a little more vague than some newer translations. The vagueness helps me pray, concentrate, and interpret it the way I think God would want me to interpret it right now in our time.
The Unjust Judge
Anne: The parable of the unjust judge is interesting, because I think Jesus would like people in authority, so clergy or the court system, to help victims of abuse. It’s specifically about a widow. Whenever I read about widows in the scriptures, I, of course, because of the podcast and because of what I do, envision abuse widows. Or women who are widows through no fault of their own.
Their husband or ex-husband might still be alive, but they are left alone, and they are unprotected and not provided for by their husbands. In essence, they have been abandoned even if their husband or ex-husband is still alive. In ancient times, women did not have the ability to make money. They were essentially enslaved to their husbands, and if they did make money, their husbands could take it.
If they got divorced, their husbands would take their children, and they had no rights. They were considered the property of their husbands. It’s interesting to me that Jesus is so concerned with widows and women. Luke 18 starts with, “And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray and not to faint.”
Now, I interpret that to mean stay close to the spirit and the not faint part to confront evil or wrongdoing. And actually do something about it, to take action to relieve suffering. In verse 2, it says, “Saying, There was in the city a judge, which feared not God.
The Judge’s Indifference
Anne: So this is not a judge concerned about right and wrong. He’s not a judge worried about it. And then it says, “neither regarded man:” meaning he also didn’t care about people. He was just a jerk. This is not a good person. He’s not concerned with women. He’s not concerned with justice. Who knows why he’s a judge, but this judge is unjust.
Verse 3, “And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.” Now, let’s take this to mean the person who made her a widow. And in our case, the person who made us a widow would be our husband or ex-husband. We have been rendered protector less or provider less due to his actions. Emotionally, psychologically, financially, our husbands have essentially abandoned and oppressed us.
So she wants help. She’s going to this judge and saying, I need help. Not just avenge me of my adversary. But, most likely, help me. I need help, I need financial help. And maybe need help with my children. My husband is abusing or persecuting me. I need help. Please help me.
Verse 4 “And he [meaning the judge] would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; Verse 5 “Yet, because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.” So essentially, this judge is like, I don’t want to do anything. She’s driving me crazy. But she keeps coming back to bother me. Why does she keep coming back? I don’t know, but she’s going to keep coming back. And I don’t care about her.
Staying Married After Infidelity: Jesus’ Commentary
Anne: The judge doesn’t care about anybody else. And I don’t care if people oppress her, if she’s got financial problems or if she’s suffering. All he’s worried about is himself. I don’t want to deal with this.
Verse 6, Jesus says about abuse, “Hear what the unjust judge saith.” So he makes a point again to say, this guy is unjust. The thing he’s going to say right now is the wrong thing to do. Had he said, The Lord saith, hear what the repentant judge saith, or the judge who had a change of heart. Or he realized through this experience that he was a bad dude and wanted to change. No, no, no, he’s still unjust.
Now I want you to think in your mind as you listen, what do you think he’s going to say? Do you think he’s going to say, Hey, you’re the one at fault? You pushed him away. You caused him problems. The fact that you’re a widow is your own darn fault. I just want you to think in your mind. Should you stay married after infidelity? Who will help you decide? I’m going to let you think for a minute about what you think that unjust judge might say. All right.
The Unjust Judge’s Response
Anne: Verse 7, this is what Jesus says the unjust judge said. He looks this widow in the eye, and he says to her, “And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?” So he looks at her, and he says, Hey, isn’t God supposed to help you? Aren’t you supposed to pray, and then God will come to your aid?
And then this unjust judge continues, and he says in verse 8, “I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.” Is that true? I’m going to talk about that in just a minute. “Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” So he’s looking at this woman and he’s saying, Isn’t God supposed to help people who cry to him day and night? Isn’t God supposed to come to your aid? God’s supposed to do that. He should help you.
And then that’s the end of the parable. That’s it. And in verse 9, it reads, “And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:” So he’s telling this parable to people who think they’re righteous, but don’t care about anybody else. That answer that this unjust judge gives. It’s actually true. Will others help?
God’s Role In Justice
Anne: God does hear our prayers. He does care about us, and I think he will avenge us, if not in this life, in the next life, for sure. So why is Jesus saying this is what the unjust judge says? Why is Christ using this as an example of what an unrighteous person, who doesn’t care, someone who thinks really highly of themselves as righteous. That they’re not actually righteous, who does not have charity, right?
Someone who despises others is someone who doesn’t have godly love for someone else. This unjust judge had the ability to actually physically reduce this woman’s suffering. He had the ability to do something about her situation, and bring the person who caused her to be a widow to justice. Maybe he could have thrown the guy in jail or maybe he could have required him to pay her.
Maybe he could have required other things that would have physically and emotionally reduced her suffering. But he didn’t do that. Instead of helping her in any way, shape, or form, he just sat there and said, Oh, just pray to God. God will help you. So he essentially refused to do anything about it.
Now, in many of our faith traditions, we’ve heard that other people are the answer to our prayers. So we pray and we ask Heavenly Father for help, and we do receive help. But God himself doesn’t come out of the sky in general, and assist somebody.
https://youtube.com/shorts/3LQPos2hN_c
Staying Married After Infidelity: Personal Experience With Abuse
Anne: I remember one time when I got down on my knees when my ex was arrested, and I did not know what to do. And I called the domestic violence shelter. Now my abuse was mostly emotional and psychological abuse, and that is what Betrayal Trauma Recovery is about. In this instance, he pushed back my fingers, and I went to the doctor. And the doctor called the cops, and they arrested him and gave him a temporary no contact order, which is like a protective order.
But I don’t want you to get the impression that my ex was extremely physically violent per se, like that I noticed. He would punch walls so he was physically violent, but it was not something that I was aware of. Like I didn’t know that punching walls was physical abuse. I didn’t comprehend it. But in terms of like punching me in the face or being overtly like that, that was not the case.
What I knew about was how his infidelity in the form of explicit content use and masturbation. He had been in addiction recovery for years. I didn’t know he was physically abusive, actually. In the technical definition, he was also emotionally and psychologically abusive because of his infidelity. So the third time he physically actually touched me in a scary way was that time. And I went to the doctor and told the doctor, who called the police.
The Court’s Intervention
Anne: So that being said, it was about a week or two. I can’t remember exactly after his arrest, and there was the court date coming up. And I was the victim, and I didn’t know if I should go to court or not. I had no idea. And I didn’t get hold of the victim advocate. I was overwhelmed at that point, I didn’t want my marriage to end.
I hoped he would understand what had happened. And that this would help him get what was going on, and that it would spur change for him. So I got down on my knees and I prayed. I just said, I don’t know what to do. Please, please help me. I’m going to give this to you. I was kneeling and I had my head bowed. And when I looked up the phone rang. And it was the victim advocate from the domestic violence shelter, and I said, the hearing …
I forgot one important part of the story. Sorry, the hearing was like in an hour, so it wasn’t like I had a ton of time to figure out, should I go to the hearing? Should I not go to the hearing? I didn’t want to go because I was terrified of him, but I also didn’t want myself to be the person to cause something bad to happen to him. But I didn’t want him to come back into the house, because I was terrified. I didn’t want to see him.
It was really, really close to when the hearing was supposed to be, anyway. So she called and I said, I don’t know what to do. The hearing is at three. Should I go? Should I not go?
He Pled Guilty
Anne: I don’t want my marriage to end, so I don’t know what I’m supposed to say, but I’m terrified and I don’t want him to come back yet. He hasn’t shown any signs of changing. She said, well, I’ll go for you. I will present the facts. She confirmed the facts.
I said, yes. And she went. Then he ended up later having to plead guilty. I got a longer protective order, and he did a plea in abeyance, which means he didn’t have to go to jail, but he had probation for 14 months. And that whole 14 months, he had a protective order where he could not come near me. Which I really needed to get emotional and psychological space to see what was going on.
That judge did something. That particular judge took action and said to him, you can’t be around her, you can’t call her, you can’t go in the house, and when you want to get your stuff, you will have to have the police there. And then someone else that she deems her representative in the home before you can go in the home. He actually did something.
When I went to clergy, they didn’t say, pray, God will help you. Most of the time, they just told me I needed to love, serve and stuff like that. They could have actually helped me in my particular faith. They could have told him, you can’t have a volunteer position. You’re not able to participate in ordinances. They could have told him, you cannot do this. More and more as women talk to clergy, they hear there’s nothing I can do. And it’s just not true. There are things that people can do.
Staying Married After Infidelity Tools From The Living Free Workshop
Anne: If you’ve enrolled in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, you’ll know that this is not strategic and can be dangerous for you. Living Free will teach you safety strategies. If you go to clergy and tell them, the most likely thing is that the clergy will be concerned and they’ll call him into their office. And then he will groom and manipulate them. Because just like you didn’t understand that your husband or ex husband was abusive, the clergy doesn’t either.
And so it’s very easy for clergy, therapists, family, friends to be manipulated by this type of abuser. And then you’re not only being abused by your abuser, but also clergy or friends or family who are also putting pressure on you. So that he can continue to exploit you.
This is not to say your clergy is unjust, like the judge in the parable. In our day, he might just be uneducated, because he doesn’t understand abuse dynamics. And that will make it dangerous for you. To learn more about these strategies, go to this link. Strategically, it’s not the best idea to try to go to your clergy to see if they can help you get your husband to repent. That’s not the best way to go.
In the case of the parable of the unjust judge, Jesus is telling judges, hey, don’t look a widow in the face and refuse to do anything to actually help her. Don’t just look at her and say, hey, God will help you, just pray.
Jesus’ Message To Judges
Anne: You are there to help her. I am God, I am Jesus. And I am telling you, you are the one that needs to help her. You are the one that needs to reduce this suffering. You can do it through giving her food, helping her pay her house payment. And you can do it by telling this abuser that he’s not allowed to come to church right now because he’s abusive. That would also tip the abuser off and start the grooming. So strategically, that’s a little dangerous.
But just judges are people who actually help reduce the suffering by helping. I’m going to say avenge here for a minute, but in this case, I think what it means is reducing that suffering, some type of justice. Not just for something in the past that happened. The widow in the parable of the unjust judge, I don’t know what her problems are exactly. But she’s having these ongoing problems, which is why she’s going for help.
If this was just in the past, and she was okay, and she had food to eat and a roof over her head. I don’t think she would be going to someone for help. There’s a reason why she’s going to this judge. She needs help. He doesn’t help her. And now I’m going to ironically talk about a loving God who loves us and will actually help us. Maybe not through that particular judge, but there will be people who can help.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery As An Answer To Prayers
Anne: Betrayal Trauma Recovery is often an answer to women’s prayers. That sounds ridiculous, but frequently women tell me they didn’t know what to do. They didn’t know where to go. They prayed, and then they searched online and found us. And they knew that finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery was an answer to their prayers. They were searching for answers about staying in marriage after infidelity?
But they didn’t realize that infidelity is emotional and psychological abuse.
They didn’t realize they were emotionally and psychologically abused. And once they recognized what infidelity actually meant. Then they could start making decisions about staying married after infidelity. Or whether they wanted to do something different.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we educate people. We provide Group Sessions and other services. God can help us through other people, through giving us knowledge, through giving us skills. But just like with the Israelites, when Moses came to deliver them. They had to actually pack up their bags and walk out of there. Once he parted the Red Sea, they had to walk across it. And that must have been very difficult. And then they had to wander around in the wilderness.
So they had a miracle in being delivered, but the deliverance was rough for a long time. And I bet God is upset with that judge. Because he was in the position to help her, and he didn’t.
The Importance Of Asking
Anne: In Luke 11:9-13, I’m changing the pronouns, so it hits home for us. “And I say unto you, Ask and it shall be given you, seek, and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you. For every [woman] that asketh, receiveth; and [she] that seeketh findeth; and to [her] that knocketh it shall be opened. If a [daughter] shall ask bread of any of you that is a [mother], will [she] give [her] a stone?”
“Or if [she] ask a fish, will [she], for a fish, give [her] a serpent? Or if [she] shall ask an egg, will [she] offer [her] a scorpion? If ye then, [and he says evil, but I’m going to say human]. If ye then being [human] know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
And then he talks about casting out a devil in the next verse 14 and he was casting out a devil. They’re right next to each other. If you ask God for help, He wants to give you a fish, not a stone. I know it feels like He wants to give you rocks. Because I felt like that for a long time. I felt like I was praying and getting rocks.
That I was going in for help from clergy. They were supposed to be the people who could give out justice. Even my experience with the court system was horrific. But God did come through. There might be evil people around you that are like batting the fish away. God’s trying to give you fish? Heck no, she doesn’t deserve fish, and they’re batting it away.
Receiving God’s Help
Anne: Then in the next verse, 14, he was casting out devils. So consider, God is trying to help me, I need some space from this person who is batting these fish away. So I can receive what God wants to give me. God wants to give me peace. And you need enough space so that devil, essentially, that wicked person, can’t bat the fish away. So if you’re praying and you’re not able to receive, is there something that is in the way? A devil perhaps, one more scripture about receiving?
In that same chapter, Luke 11, Jesus tells another parable. He says in verse 5, “Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves; For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?” So basically, it’s like, which one of you is gonna be like, ‘… Trouble me not: The door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed, and I cannot rise and give thee.”
So, hey, stop knocking on my door. We’re all asleep. We’re not going to give it to you. And then in verse 8, he says, “I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.” So basically, you’re going to be like, Oh, this guy’s driving me crazy. I’m going to get up and give him the bread.
This is like the unjust judge. The unjust judge, he’s like, this lady’s driving me nuts. I don’t care about her. Should you stay married aftger infidelity? Maybe there will be an unjust judge.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Was Built On Prayer
Anne: I will tell her to pray so she’ll go away, which was the unjust thing to do. This guy is the friend, but he says you’re not giving the guy the bread in the middle of the night because he’s your friend. I mean, he’s your friend, that’s a side note. You’re giving it to him because of the time, because it’s in the middle of the night.
Then right after that are the ask and you shall receive scriptures, and if you ask for bread, he’s not going to give you rocks. What Christ says to us is that if you ask for help, I will give it to you. Because you need it and I love you. I care about you, and you are a friend. I’m not just going to give you help, because it’s the middle of the night. And I’m going to give you help, because I love you. I’m not just going to give you “help” because I want you to go away. It’s because I care.
Now for you listeners who aren’t religious. If you’ve listened this far, thank you. I’m not trying to convince you to pray. In my particular case, I knew I was in a pickle. I knew there was nothing I could do that I knew of. Betrayal Trauma Recovery has been built on me praying for help, and then getting answers, and then acting on those answers. I pray, I get an answer. And then, just like the Israelites, I’m saying this as a metaphor, pick up my stuff and walk out of Pharaoh’s oppression.
I say it as a metaphor in that I didn’t actually move out of my house. I’m in the same house.
Take Steps Toward Safety While Determining Whether To Stay Married After Infidelity
Anne: I learned what God wanted me to know, and He can lead and guide us. I don’t know why there are so many men in the world. Women in the court system as clergy or in other places who don’t understand abuse, who aren’t capable or willing or available to actually help in physical ways. But one thing that has helped me sort of wrap my head around it is that I also did not know. Are you safe?
I mean, I was married to him. He lived with me. I slept in the same bed, and I didn’t understand that he was abusive. I couldn’t comprehend it. So that helps me have grace for other people who don’t understand it, because I also didn’t at one point. So on our journey to help, number one, get ourselves to safety, and then once we are safe, helping get the word out to other women about safety. Once you take steps toward safety you can better determine if you want to stay married.
Some people will be like the unjust judge. They don’t care about doing the right thing, and they don’t care about you. It might seem like they’re in a position where they should do that. They can be clergy or a literal judge, and they’re not going to help. And some people might be like the friend in the middle of the night who doesn’t get it. But of course they’re going to give you the bread.
They’re like, Oh, fine. It’s in the middle of the night. I’m going to give you bread. That person actually helped that person. So there will be people like that who might show up and give you bread and help you. They might not understand it.
Help Me Know What I Need To Do
They might not understand you, but you will get the help that you need.
Anne: And then there is God who does love, does understand, and does want to give you a fish. He doesn’t want to give you a pile of rocks. So for my Christian friends, if you’ve been praying, one thing to consider praying is to say, Heavenly Father, it feels like I’ve been getting rocks. It feels like I’ve been getting a serpent, or it feels like I’ve been getting scorpions. Please direct my path. I know that’s not what you want to give me. I know you want to give me fish.
Help me know what I need to do so that I can receive that. And if you need to receive, there is an answer whether you should stay married after infidelity or divorce after infidelity. Truth and safety are the way to discover that answer. In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, it gives you exercises to get in touch with yourself. If you’re atheist or agnostic, your gut, right? Like get in touch with what the universe is telling you. As a Christian, I would say the Spirit might tell you.
The Living Free Workshop is completely secular. I don’t use scripture in it at all. It’s exercises to help you get in touch with yourself, to help you know what the right thing is for you. Because it’s going to be different for everyone. Only you have the answer about should you stay married after infidelity?
But what will help you is to get educated about abuse by listening to this podcast, and taking the Living Free Workshop, which will help you uncover what his true character is. So that you can make the best decisions for you.
How To Know If You’re Experiencing Spiritual Abuse Symptoms – Abby’s Story
Dec 20, 2022
Is your husband using scriptures to coerce or oppress you? If so, you may be experiencing spiritual abuse symptoms. Here’s how to know for sure. If you’re wondering if you’ve experienced spiritual abuse, take our free spiritual abuse quiz to see if he’s used any of these tactics to exploit and oppress you.
Spiritual abuse is a form of emotional and psychological manipulation where a husband uses scripture, revelation, or religious traditions to oppress women. It also involves the misuse of power by leaders or authority figures to control, manipulate, or exploit women under their influence. This type of abuse can take many forms, from fear tactics and guilt-tripping to strict rules. It’s often mistaken for spiritual teachings.
9 Signs Of Spiritual Abuse
Coercing the victim into sexual activity using scripture or the misogynistic logic that it is her “wifely duty” to submit to her husband
Refusing to help with household duties, telling a woman it’s the role God intended for her
Convincing the victim that she does not have access to God’s direction or power without a man
Making unilateral decisions
Controlling the finances
Undermining her talents, refusing to let the victim work
Accusing the victim of “sin”
Controlling whom the victim can associate with
Controlling the victim’s hobbies
This list isn’t exhaustive, but may help victims identify areas in which the abuser uses spirituality and religious texts or traditions to control and coerce her.
5 Spiritual Abuse Symptoms
Feeling like you must constantly try harder to earn a place in heaven.
Believing that God disapproves of you, even when you’ve done nothing wrong.
Struggling with feelings of depression and hopelessness.
Feeling overwhelmed by the pressure to meet impossible spiritual standards.
Thinking you’re unworthy of God’s blessings or that God has forgotten you.
By nature, spiritual abuse is generally very isolating. Husbands and church leaders may not allow victims to associate with others outside the faith community. Abusers may refuse to allow victims to contact family or friends who don’t practice their faith like they do.
Transcript: How To Know If You’re Experiencing Spiritual Abuse Symptoms
Anne: I have Abby on today’s episode. Her parents died when she was 12. A family adopted her into a family that attended the Community of Christ Church in Northern Missouri. She married her husband, also a member of that same church, at the age of 18. They were married for 26 years and had five children. While dating and married, she experienced spiritual abuse in the form of misuse of the word of God by her husband and several influential male leaders of her church.
Welcome Abby.
Abby: Thank you, Anne. I’m honored to be here. I hope my story will help others know that God himself does not want his daughters to be oppressed in any way. And that he is the ultimate authority or one that calls the shots, if you will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcKBBYifx2I
Early Red Flags In Marriage
Anne: When did you start to sense that something wasn’t quite right.
Abby: I sensed it from the beginning, but because of lack of education and self-esteem, I wasn’t sure what to do about it. My former spouse would sit in the car with me for hours and tell me what God told him about me. I didn’t know I was experiencing spiritual abuse.
And let’s just use a silly example. God told me you were wearing a blue dress when X, Y, Z happened. I would say, no, I was wearing the purple dress, not a blue one. And he would overpower me. And the truth became that the dress was the color he chose. That sounds silly, but it was a powerful way of controlling.
Anne: I don’t think that sounds silly at all. I think it sounds extremely traumatic and strange.
Abby: Well, and God is the ultimate trump card, and he knew I am woman of faith and was very devoted. Some other issues were, I went on a hiking trip with the youth of my church. All of us got to the top of Mount Elbert. We’re having fun. And I fell in a snow drift, and one of the guys pulled me out, and we laughed. Afterward, he forced me to stay away from that boy.
He wouldn’t let me go out with other friends. And would dominate my time, actually stopped in the road while I was getting in the car with Stephanie, my friend. He said, Oh, you need to go with me.
Physical, Emotional & Spiritual Abuse Symptoms
Abby: One of the most poignant situations was that he had a pornography issue or addiction at the time. And I had learned to play the guitar from a former boyfriend. And so to prove my devotion to him and him professing he was giving up or abandoning his addiction. Required me to throw my guitar along with his magazines into a well. I was never allowed to play the guitar for youth campfires ever again. Yes, it all seemed odd.
I actually went to a school counselor and said, “Look, do I not communicate well?” This person is just not understanding a word I’m saying.
And she says, “You have a fine command of the language”, but I was uneducated. I did see red flags.
Anne: Really quickly for our audience, was this a public school, a church school, where you were trying to get educated at home?
Abby: A public school.
Anne: Okay.
Abby: And even the night before our wedding, we sat in the car and I said, there’s just something wrong. I just can’t go through with the wedding. And so I said, good night, got out of the car. He pulled me back in and overpowered my own conscience. He has a way with words and was able to convince me how wrong I was to not follow through with the wedding. Those feelings were spiritual abuse symptoms.
Anne: So you knew something was wrong.
Resistance & Submission
Anne: You’re resisting this abuse, the best way that you can. And everything you’re doing during this time is to resist abuse. So did you resist by praying, serving and loving the typical Christian advice for how to solve a problem? This is when biblical submission becomes abuse.
Abby: In the early part of our marriage, I was a strong willed young woman. We often had fights, and it was mostly over him saying and persisting that the dress was blue instead of purple, kind of a situation. Those kinds of conversations would lead to argument. The argument would lead to being forced on the ground, held down on the bed in a corner until I finally gave up and consented. Okay then, the dress was blue, so I had to shut up.
To maintain peace in our household, I just ended up stuffing for years. And then I would have outbursts of anger, and I’m like, what’s the matter with me? I’m so angry. And I understand now why, until 20 years later, I wasn’t even able to articulate the concept of these behaviors as abuse.
Recognizing This Kind Of Behavior As Abusive
Anne: So many women from all over the world have found that it’s so difficult to recognize that this type of behavior is abuse. And it takes years to figure it out. In your case, why do you think for you it was so hard to figure out that it was abuse or even to label it abuse until years later?
Abby: Well, predominantly I believe it was my, my belief system. I read the Bible. I read how Jesus died for those who persecuted him. And there are several passages that talk about honoring authorities, the laws of the land, submitting to your husband, and suffering like Christ. He used that to control me, I didn’t know it was spiritual abuse.
Cultural & Religious Barriers
Abby: All the things that I endured with him in my mind at that time were purely suffering for Christ. I went through a period of the homeschool movement, in which many of the presentations of homeschool families focused heavily on women submitting. And so I thought internally that I was doing what the Lord wanted me to do. I’ve heard the word abuse, but the two did not connect. And I also thought it was what God wanted me to do.
Anne: In your experience, the whole spiritual construct or in the world you lived in, the culture of your religion kept you from seeing that it was abuse. That you were a victim and having spiritual abuse symptoms.
Abby: Absolutely, additionally his behaviors were not Christlike in many ways.
Anne: In light of this, being actively abused, you are practicing the types of principles that seem like they’re a good idea, right? Love, service, forgiveness, taught by your religion, but in the context of abuse, they’re harmful to you. When did you realize that these common types of marriage principles are just healthy living principles? They were not working in your case.
Abby: There are several pivot points where I became aware and then would get pulled back in. One of the most powerful influences and also moments of pivot of saying, wait a minute, this isn’t right. God wouldn’t do this. Were the times he would hear from God that I had done horrible things. I guess I can be completely transparent here. He would accuse me of adultery for just talking to someone.
He would accuse me of spiritual infidelity for speaking with my mother. Isolating me away from people who had a different opinion and would give me options to his treatment of me.
Spiritual Abuse Symptoms: Isolation & Accusations
Abby: I remember specifically fleeing the home after an episode and going to the library for retreat. On its side was a book by Jack Atterburn, called Twisted Scriptures, if I have the author correct. And I’m like, what is this? And I picked it up. I snatched it, went to my mom’s home. It took me two or three hours to recover from the episode.
I’m reading this book and I’m like, this is what’s happening to me. And I went home and stood in the kitchen, and I still remember the clock saying 10 and the hands are at 10 o’clock. And I said, this isn’t going to happen anymore. I don’t remember what happened, how he did it. I just remember. ending up on the floor in defeat and being accused of spiritual adultery.
Repeated incidents of being accused of adultery when I knew between me and God in my own heart and conscience that I had never done so. And then to have it accused publicly, not only in front of my children, but also in front of people of the faith. And so the conflict between the two was horrible. It wasn’t until many years later that I finally said, I will not do this anymore.
Anne: When you’ve decided this and you’re not getting any traction with him, right? You’re ending up just continually being blamed. Did you start to try and get help from other people?
Abby: Yes, a helper was a prominent leader in the faith. He convinced me, a church faith leader, that I was not submissive enough. And that’s why I was having so many problems. So he compounded the spiritual abuse symptoms by doing the same thing as my husband.
Educating The Abuser
Abby: I also fled to a women’s shelter. I was given the power and control wheel after an episode, and I was in crisis. It made a lot of sense to me, but not all the wheel was full at that time. A third of it was, or at least I recognized, and I took it home to him. Thinking if he just sees this, we could get help and everything would be okay. That wasn’t the case.
Anne: Yeah, that sounds so familiar. I did that. And pretty much every woman I’ve ever interviewed. Shares that she tried to educate her abusive husband about the abuse, thinking that that would help. That’s a way to resist abuse. It’s actually something a super healthy person would do. So we’re doing the right thing. Not knowing and not being educated about abuse. That he’s going to weaponize anything. Even abuse education to abuse us more.
So that is so devastating when that happens. I’m so sorry that happened to you. Many women who have tried to educate their abuser about his abuse end up being accused of being abusive. Because the abuser learns to use the language of therapists or church leaders. Spiritual abuse, they use scripture. That’s why our spiritual abuse symptoms are so extreme, because they use scripture or our faith tradition as a weapon against us.
Now we know how to educate women about this. To say, it’s dangerous to bring these things to your abuser. So keep this information to yourself. And I explain exactly why that is in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. And you can get more information by clicking on the link.
Weaponizing Abuse Education
Anne: I’d say enroll in the Living Free Workshop. Learn why it’s so dangerous. First, at least I’ll have the foundation and understanding of what the dangers are and what to anticipate. If you decide to try and educate him about. it.
Abby: And I could have said the same thing, if I was speaking as an advocate and not telling my story. I would’ve said exactly what you just said. It is dangerous. To divulge anything to your abuser, they will weaponize it, no matter what it is.
Anne: Yeah, absolutely, the point of all the educational material that I produce here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. On our social media platforms, like on Instagram. We’re also on Facebook at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and YouTube at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. On all those platforms and on this podcast, the purpose of me educating you about the abuse, isn’t for you to take this information and give it to your abuser. So that he’ll stop being abusive.
That’s not how this works. He’ll just weaponize it and use it against you. And you will have more spiritual abuse symptoms. So please keep that in mind as you’re following me on social media, or listen to the podcast. Keep this information for yourself.
Symptoms Of Spiritual Abuse: Impact On Children
Abby: Yes, and I think another part that pivoted me was the way he would use our children. My oldest remembers, and I saw it too. I just didn’t have language for it until I read your book. And I want to emphasize that the abuse of a spouse, a wife, mother of children is abuse of the children. He would batter me to the point where my children would flee, escape out the living room window, and play in the creek and the fields just to get away from the abuse.
And then would come back traumatized. They had spiritual abuse symptoms. What’s wrong with mommy? And he would bond with them, comfort them while I’m in an emotionally broken state. And tell them your mommy’s mentally ill. We need to pray for her. We just need to pray for her. And so my children grew up bonding with him during most critical junctures. And so it would separate me emotionally from my children.
Not because I wanted to, but because, like we said before, divulging information. Even if it’s a daughter. I’m going to mom’s house for a break that would go straight to him. And even when I finally left. I could not take my children, because my older children were groomed to report on, spy on, and tell dad that I was a bad girl. So if I had taken them to a shelter, especially, the oldest son would have called dad and said, Hey, we’re over here. Come get us. Mom’s being a bad mom again.
That is so hard. That whole setup of grooming the children has destroyed the emotional condition of all five of my children. And we’re still suffering the symptoms of spiritual abuse.
Separation & Recovery
Anne: That’s awful. I’m so sorry. How did you finally get some traction on getting to safety? And what did that look like for you?
Abby: Well, separation, complete disconnection, was the first step of traction. Starting to think, act, and decide for myself. Which took time to recover, because everything was deferred to him previously. But I can’t emphasize enough the separation. Even though you’ve got all this covenant language, death do you part, you have to get away and start recovering on your own with outside resources.
And I started my own business, integrated into my community, volunteered at a local women’s shelter, did public speaking, studied. I think I’ve read every book, almost every book on domestic violence, coercive control and spiritual abuse. Definitely educated myself, started college. And I think my greatest traction point was when I was no longer a woman with my tail between my legs in front of spiritual leaders, no matter what faith they came from.
I previously thought, Oh my goodness, I need to be meek and submissive. And now I’m confident in my relationship with God and in interfacing with faith leaders. And saying, look, that’s not what the scriptures say, or educating them on what needs to happen. What they need to know to help victims who come to them for help, and what they’ve been in the past, is dangerous.
Because I didn’t have my children with me, I went to Division of Family Services. I know that may not have been the best choice in most cases.
Building A New Life
Abby: But fortunately, in my case, I told the social worker I left home. This is why I’ve got five children there. They’re homeschooled, isolated, and need help. And she helped me. She did believe me. She enforced removing the children from him, but he manipulated the system, and then I filed for divorce.
Anne: Can we talk about that for a minute? I have found that many women are spiritually abused. Part of that spiritual abuse is fear and distrust of government resources or help. Can you talk about how abusers use a fear of services that people could use, perhaps community services?
We need to acknowledge that fear of the police or justice system is justified when you’re a victim. Because I interview victims who have been more abused through the system and have spiritual abuse symptoms. So there’s no guarantee services will help. But some women get help. Do you share that these services help them greatly?
Abby: Absolutely. I definitely was afraid to go there. They weren’t the kingdom. They were of the world. Do not go down to Egypt, Isaiah says, and you are disobeying. The higher laws of God to go to the world for counsel.
And it was horrible.We were prevented from getting medical care because of this same issue. He would say, God’s going to heal you. You don’t need a doctor. So that conditioning and fear was there for a long, long time. And so it was a big risk for me.
Spiritual Abuse: Miracles & Support
Abby: I had already, by the time I spoke to her, realized after many unfortunate episodes with church leaders. Who didn’t get me the appropriate resources, and address the real issue of our home. I did go to this social worker. The terror of leaving an abuser, threats of murdering me. You’ll never see your children again, which was horrible. And I thought, well, I’ll just go back.
And she told me, Abby, if you go back, I will take your children from you both because he is abusing your entire family. It would have been a year and a half after separation. And she was extremely helpful. So it was good for me, but it was so hard to trust secular resources.
Anne: Were you surprised at how helpful they were when you finally did that? Were you like, wait a minute, they care about me. I mean, I just think like this whole time you’ve been trying to do what God wanted you to do. And by the way, God loves you, right? He cares about you. And yet in this system, you’re not being cared for at all. In fact, you’re being dismissed, so the symptoms of spiritual abuse go unnoticed.
And then you go to these secular people who are actually caring for you and trying to help you. And listening to you and believing you. Were you shocked? Were you like, wait a minute, I was taught these guys were bad, and here they are, they’re amazing?
Abby: I was, I mean, two episodes. First of all, the social worker was a heathen. She did not, does not believe in God. I was upset, because I thought I was a godly person and being a bad example.
Help From A Social Worker
Abby: Look at my household. And she called me one afternoon. I can’t remember the whole content, but I said, Ginny, you believe in God. And I said, every morning you put your feet on the floor, you go to work, and you deliver the captives. You deliver the orphans. Andyou are helping people in abuse. You believe in God because that’s what he would do.
Anne: What did she say to you?
Abby: She was in shock, and then when I was with my spouse, I would cry and pray on my face. And God deliver me and you know the truth will set you free. That is what kept going through my mind. I didn’t understand why I wasn’t free, that these were all symptoms of spiritual abuse. I was accused of rebellion for running and hiding from him. Which I would typically run and hide at a park, a local park, and I was labeled rebellious.
And so when I was sitting with the counselor, she said, Abby, it’s a normal response to run and hide in the park. That’s a normal response to abnormal behavior. And I just stared at her. You mean I’m not rebellious? I had no clue that I wasn’t rebellious for hiding from the abuse. And I would like to say to women believers, if it makes any sense to you.
I believed some scriptures, like Esther, Abigail, predominantly Old Testament scriptures. That women were very subdued, they’re very dominated in the patriarchal culture. And they had to wait on God’s deliverance, or at least seemingly so. And so I had adopted that belief system that I had to wait for God to deliver me.
Stages Of Deliverance
Abby: So I would fast, I would pray, I would lay on my face. And I won’t go into the whole story. But there came a moment where I prayed and told God I will go home. If you tell me that I am not rebellious, adulterous, all the labels he had covered me with, like manure. He basically said, Nope, you got to do this. You got to get up. You got to, you got to submit to me, honor me and take the consequences.
I’m like, you mean I can’t go home? And that’s not the whole story. That’s not the intimate story behind what I’m trying to say. My deliverance came through my growing in strength and personal relationship with him and other people. It didn’t come from a magical deliverance knocking him on the head. I had to do the work, to gain freedom from spiritual abuse.
Anne: This idea of deliverance is something I’ve been studying for years. I love stories in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and the Book of Mormon. I study from the Book of Mormon of deliverance and people separating themselves from wickedness. There are so many stories, and God is a God of deliverance. He is. And you think about the parting of the Red Sea. So, one of my favorite stories is that Moses parts the Red Sea, and then the Israelites have to walk through it.
That’s probably quite a walk. The bottom of that sea is dry, rocky and hard. We always focus on the parting of the Red Sea, and then they magically walk through it. But I’m like, what was this part of the Red Sea?
Taking Action For Safety To Get Relief From Spiritual Abuse
Anne: And then they actually walked that hard, long slog through the bottom of a body of water that has been there forever, is amazing. Not something to discount. They had to walk through. The more I study deliverance, the other thing I realize is there are these stages of deliverance, there’s the stage where they’re wandering around in the wilderness. And same with our deliverance.
In each stage, we are required to pack up our bags, and actually move ourselves out, or cross the sea. Or, in the case of the 40 years in the wilderness, there were times when they just had to believe they would get mana that day. They didn’t know how they were going to be fed. They did the best they could under the circumstances.
So I encourage women now who desperately pray their husband will understand. Please start praying, asking Heavenly Father, how am I going to be delivered? What do you want me to do to bring to pass my deliverance? When they were backed up against the Red Sea, Moses actually had to command the sea to part. Moses didn’t just get to the sea and then be like, Oh shoot, what are we going to do? He actually took action. Keep that in mind as you’re praying for deliverance.
It will require you to begin to take action for your own safety to escape the spiritual abuse. And the amazing thing is miracles will occur along that path that you could not have done. Like Moses, no matter how hard he tried, no matter how much he said to the sea, part, he couldn’t part it.
Support From Faith Leaders
Anne: God parted it, but he actually took action to speak the words out loud. So I think knowing that it will be stages of deliverance, knowing that you need to play a part in that, that you have to move your feet, is important.
Abby: And I’d also like to point out that Pharaoh and the Israelites, their will, had turned into helplessness. Yes, they may be prayed every morning, noon and night for deliverance, but Pharaoh’s abuse broke their will. And so, yes, it’s going to be hard. I can only imagine that some Hebrews were weak, physically weak, and emotionally weak, and still had to take action. I so agree with that. That’s what I’m trying to say, is that I had to take action. Yes, there were miracles along the way.
Anne: Can you talk about the miracles you experienced? Some ways people helped you? Maybe this would be a good time to talk about the bishop that helped you.
Abby: Yes, I felt so defeated and overcome because of the spiritual abuse symptoms. And look at me, I’m a Christian woman going through divorce. I’m just, I just don’t have the spirit of the Lord anymore. I just felt totally defeated, but I had to take the actions I did. And I was at the pool with my daughters, and I got up to walk out the gate to get a towel.
And this woman just confronts me at the gate, and she goes, “You have the most beautiful spirit of the Lord.” And I’m like, you’re kidding me. Are you saying that? I mean, that was one little tender way. And there are so many others I could tell, but I started a new drapery and upholstery workroom.
Joining A New Faith Community
Abby: The bishop that came to my shop just reminded me, yes, I’m with you. You haven’t lost me just because we’re in the middle of a battle. So I was at my shop. And a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint’s Bishop came to my door with two missionaries. And at that time, I had already experienced years of faith leaders letting me down and betraying my trust. So I basically bit his head off. I laughed because he was so patient while I told him what had happened.
And I’m not happy with you guys right now. When all the steam was gone. He just stood there kindly and gently. And he said, Abby, I want to publicly apologize for every faith leader who has let you down. And I will do everything in my power to help you. My church circles publicly humiliated me. That I could hardly go to church for fear of being publicly humiliated.
And this Bishop would literally text me while I’m sitting in the parking lot. I’m afraid to come in. Well, come in. If anybody hurts you, you let me know and I’ll take care of it. He truly shepherded me. He understood how severe the symptoms of spiritual abuse were.
I gained my best friend. We now work together. We’ve been friends for 12 years, and I couldn’t ask for a better friend. She’s a true Christlike loving person. She and her husband helped us through. Is she a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Yes, she was the Relief Society president at the time.
Anne: During this time, you joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Abby: Actually, I did, yes.
Establishing Peace From Spiritual Abuse Symptoms
Abby: They enabled me to start college, and gave me the practical supports to become self-reliant and stand on my own. They’ve been there at every juncture, whether it was a house fire, the death of my mother, a move. They’ve always been there for me.
Anne: That is good to hear, especially because we have so many horror stories of church leaders. So that’s great to hear. I, myself, received food from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for years. When I was trying to build Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Groups actually. So I was definitely financially and physically supported by the church.
And so I have a great respect and appreciation for the work that my church does. I’m so grateful for that. That is a miracle. So where are you now? Do you feel like you’ve established peace in your life? How are things going now?
Abby: The past 15 years have been hard to have a relationship with my children. They’re still trying to figure things out. One of them has recently come forward, so that has been a difficult path to go through. But I have to continue in my path and make the best decisions I could. I’m about to graduate with a degree in behavioral and community health. And I own my own home.
I have friends and serve where I can, especially teaching faith leaders how to respond for victims of domestic violence. And the focus of that is to not only support them, but also help them dismantle passages of scriptures. The interpretations that have kept them in bondage, in the midst of spiritual abuse symptoms. And what God wants for them. Yes, I feel like I’m at peace.
Advice For Victims
Abby: Making your way to safety is a hard road. And God does not want you to be oppressed, abused, betrayed or used. He does not want your children to grow up witnessing that pattern. God loves you. And you need to get away from the severe spiritual abuse, however that happens. With Anne, there are Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. You have so much more support now than when I first left. There’s a lot of help, and you’re not alone.
Anne: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. We really appreciate you coming on today, Abby. Thank you so much.
Abby: Thank you.
What Does The Bible Say About Divorce And Marriage: Here’s The Research
Dec 13, 2022
What does the Bible say about divorce and marriage? Let’s debunk 3 myths to uncover the truth, that Jesus came to deliver you from evil, not submit to it.
No. The bible repeatedly says that Christ came to deliver you from evil and that you should separate yourself from wickedness. Here are some modern day studies that confirm this:
Transcript: What Does The Bible Say About Divorce And Marriage
Anne: I have Gretchen Baskerville on today’s episode. Anne: She is a Christian divorce recovery leader and researcher. For 20 years, she has worked with Christian women going through difficult life saving divorces. She listens with compassion to those who have suffered from domestic violence, betrayal, infidelity, addicted partners, and emotional abuse.
She herself is a survivor of a toxic marriage. And she walked through her own life saving divorce and was a single mother for many years. Today, she’s happily remarried. She is a graduate of Wheaton College with a degree in Bible and Christian education. Welcome Gretchen.
Gretchen: Oh, it’s so great to be with you, Anne. Thank you for having me.
Anne: So today we’ll talk about what the Bible says about divorce and marriage. And for my non-religious friends listening, stay tuned. These are common myths women of faith. Faith encounter, but it’s also societal things that people say.
Myth 1: Divorce Is Universally Destructive For Kids
Anne: So Gretchen, both women of faith and just women in general, regardless of their paradigm, they really feel like divorce is going to hurt their kids.
What does the Bible say about divorce and marriage? It says to depart from evil. That would be a pattern of sexual immorality, physical violence, chronic emotional coercion, life altering addictions, abandonment, in many cases severe neglect or indifference. These are people who aren’t looking for a grass is greener divorce. They are looking for relief from the chaos. They want safety, and that’s where this first myth comes in.
Divorce is not universally destructive to children. The truth is, 8 in 10 kids of divorce turn out fine. With no safety. Long term, emotional, psychological, or social problems. And we’ve known that for over 30 years. Some critics are gonna misquote me, and they’re gonna say, you know, Gretchen denies kids feel any pain, sadness or grief. You know, Gretchen is claiming that kids just sail through divorce without any negative feelings at all, and, and that’s not at all what I’m saying.
Anybody who’s ever been through a divorce with little children knows how tough it is. The children will feel pain and sadness, confusion and grief. Mine certainly did. They may miss the other parent or not. They may cry a lot. Mine did.
Long-Term Effects Of Divorce On Kids
Gretchen: But on average, kids return to their normal level of emotional health after those first two stressful years. And having those additional years of stress from moving, maybe from finding a new school, maybe from having to make new friends, are different. From saying that a kid has lifelong, long-term, serious emotional, psychological, or social problems. Now, I know what your listeners are thinking.
Because I had one of those hostile divorces where my ex was using the kids to hurt me. So the stress went on way longer than two years. Because I had ten years of going through family law court, over custody issues. So, yes, in those kinds of cases, yeah, the stress and tension will continue. But here’s what’s so interesting. The early researchers found this.
Here’s Dr. Mavis Hetherington, even from the 1980s and 90s, she had already tracked divorced families for 20 years. She says, in the short run, divorce is brutally painful to a child, but the negative long-term effects have been exaggerated. And that’s Dr. Mavis Hetherington from the University of Virginia.
Anne: It’s so interesting to have actual statistics on this. Because abusive men, or their flying monkeys, have perpetuated this myth as a way to manipulate a woman, control and exploit her. What does the Bible really say about divorce and marriage?
Gretchen: Absolutely. Because it’s ingrained in our society. Even if you’re not religious, you’ve heard this all over the place that divorce universally destroys kids. The bestselling book 22 years ago was a book called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce by Wallerstein. And we’ll talk about her later. But people love to quote that book because of one page in her introductory section, where she really condemns all divorces as selfish.
What Does The Bible Say About Divorce And Marriage: Manipulation By Abusive Partners
Gretchen: And wow, I still hear quotes from that page on social media now. And so I have to push back and say, well, what about these other 20 quotes from her other pages? But yes, abusers themselves manipulate us. People who believe in marriage at any cost. They don’t care how much you and the kids are destroyed. They will repeat this myth all day long. Figuring out what the Bible actually says about divorce and marriage can be tough.
Anne: In the marriage, at any cost, they don’t care if you or the kids are destroyed. What they’re saying is we care about the consequences to him. We don’t mind so much if you have them or your kids have them. If you need support from a group of women who totally understand, sign up for Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.
So myth number two.
Myth 2: Kids Won’t Value Marriage After Divorce
Anne: If you divorce, your kids won’t value marriage. So in other words, when they get older, they too will get divorced. By the way, I’ve never thought this because all of my friends who had divorced parents, they highly value marriage. So I have not personally seen that in my own experience.
Gretchen: This is another fear bomb that especially Christian organizations will put out there, especially the ones that want you to stay married and favor the the abuser, even the pedophile over the wife and the children.
Myth number two about what the Bible says about divorce is that your kids won’t value the sanctity of marriage. But the truth is that most marriages of kids from divorced homes are lifelong. In fact, most people who marry in the United States have lifelong marriages, including children of divorce. Now it is true that children from divorced homes are just a bit more likely to get divorced. The top researcher on this topic for the last, I want to say 22, 23, 24 years is, uh, from your area.
He’s from the University of Utah, Dr. Nick Wolfinger. And in 2018, he said adult children of divorced parents have a 47% percent divorce rate. And those people whose parents did not divorce had a 40 percent divorce rate. In other words, there’s not a huge difference between those two groups, only 7%. So If somebody listening to this is staying just because of this myth, yeah, it’s not worth it for 7%.
Anne: Did this research talk about any divorce or divorcing the person’s actual parent?
Impact Of Grandparents’ Divorces
Anne: So, for example, my grandpa had divorced twice before he met my grandma, but is it only talking about when they divorce the parent of the kid?
Gretchen: You know, that’s a good question, and I also don’t think it has been studied, the effect of grandparents. I think it’s bio parents.
Anne: My father’s dad, his entire family, more or less, like so many of them, divorced multiple times. But all their children didn’t. My parents aren’t divorced, for example, and a ton of their kids aren’t divorced. So I never had a negative feeling about divorce, just because my dad’s parents and their family had a ton of divorces.
Which kind of signaled some unhealthy stuff. But the kids were like, wow, that was unhealthy. We want to be more healthy. People don’t think, hmm. Maybe they learned the opposite from their parents.
https://youtube.com/shorts/F9nPIWOVW5k
Gretchen: Bingo, a couple of university professors actually wanted to see if this was true. They wanted to see if different kinds of divorce affected kids differently. So if the divorce was for serious reasons, a divorce to find relief from an abusive home made a huge difference in how kids saw marriage or valued marriage. So kids whose parents got life saving divorces for serious reasons still It was unbelievable.
And here’s what the researchers found. I’ll just read their last sentence. The present study suggests one set of circumstances that a parental divorce may not undermine an offspring’s commitment to marriage. If it ends and especially discordant and aversive, that means really bad, toxic, betrayal oriented, abuse oriented parental marriage.
Debunking Myths About Divorce and Children In The Bible
Gretchen: And that’s amazing, because we were all taught that if we divorce, we’re setting a bad example for our kids. In reality, kids know right from wrong, and kids know that marriage should be safe, loving, and respectful.
Anne: Yeah, I mean, just logically speaking, it seems like kids who observe a terrible, abusive marriage, might value marriage less, because they might be like, is this what marriage is?
This is a mess, I’m not into this. But if you have a parent who is like, Hey, I deserve to be treated well, and this isn’t loving and safe. So I’m gonna get divorced. The bible says marriage is supposed to be a loving and safe place. It’s interesting what we think we’re teaching our kids, but then what we would actually be logically teaching them through our example.
Gretchen: They’re not under the same pressure as we are, and they know what a marriage ought to look like. And they know that an abusive marriage is no marriage at all. But she thinks she has to stay, and we’re talking about further injury, psychologically and physically. When she’s in despair, she’s been driven into depression, we’re talking about suicide, we’re talking about even homicide.
Myth 3: Divorce Causes Lifelong Issues For Kids
Gretchen: There are many things worse than divorce. Father’s Day is a great time for father’s rights organizations to really hammer on this myth that a two parent married home is always superior to a single parent home. And that’s absolutely not true, and it’s been proven over and over again. There are times when divorce is good for kids. And by the mid 1990s, how come no one ever told us this? Because we know that it’s the abuse and betrayal that broke the marriage.
So the question becomes in people’s minds. Especially since we tend to say, well, is this abuse or is this a normal marriage with typical ups and downs? So I find that whenever I bring this up, women say, well, I don’t know, maybe I’m not in a highly toxic home. I mean, we never scream at each other.
Now let’s look at the next level down, what we would still call toxic homes. Those homes were at least one and a half times better in cases where the kids’ parents divorced than if they had stayed.
Living In Two Different “Countries” Post-Divorce
Gretchen: It’s important for us to realize that although divorce does cause them stress, worry, and nightmares, they may even forget their toilet training. Most of these repercussions go away in about two years, but the abuse is far, far worse than the effects of divorce.
Anne: With a divorce, you cannot control what happens at your ex-husband’s home, right? So I like to think of it as your children get this experience living in two different countries. And they hopefully will feel and see that in the one country, it feels yucky, confusing, and chaotic. There’s always some weird thing going on.
And then the other country, it feels safe, calm and peaceful. And that they’ll start to recognize those two cultures and start making choices for themselves about what type of life they would like to have.
Gretchen: Absolutely. Because many people will say, Well, if I stay married, I can protect them from him. That’s the same story I gave myself. There’s no way you can stay awake 24 /7. You have to go grocery shopping. And they’re observing the covert disdain, dismissiveness, indifference in the home.
What Does The Bible Say About Divorce: The Jaffe Study
Gretchen: But there’s an incredible study we were never told about. It’s called the Jaffe study. And it says if a father has at least three of the seven antisocial traits, and they listed them. That if the children live with him 24/7 seven days a week. Then they are one in eight chances likely to develop conduct disorders themselves. If you can get them out of that house 50% of the time. If they live with you 50 percent of the time, you can drop that in half.
And so it is something that women thinking about divorce need to consider, that just getting them away from him some of that time. As you say, into the kind, loving country and culture, and getting them away from the chaotic, strange, manipulative culture, it makes a difference. What does the Bible say about divorce and marriage? I wanted to summarize myth three by saying, this is the basic rule of thumb. If the marriage is bad, divorce is good for kids.
This next myth often shows up in marriage at any cost organizations.
Myth 4: Divorce Shatters Kids’ Safety
Gretchen: They will say, kids suffer when moms and dads split up. They will say divorce itself shatters the child’s basic concept of safety. They want you to believe that legal experience will cause the children to suffer even more than they are now. Focus on the Family is one of the biggest purveyors of this particular myth. They tell abused wives it doesn’t matter how bad it is now, just the act of divorce will make it even worse for your kids.
They will suffer even more. Divorce, the legal act, shatters the kids basic concept of safety.
Anne: The Bible says to protect children, you know what really shatters their basic concept of safety? Repeated abuse. Can we just pause here to talk about Focus on the Family for a minute?
Gretchen: Yeah, sure.
Anne: So throughout your writing, you have specifically named Focus on the Family as a disseminator of incorrect information about the harms of divorce. They are hell bent on women staying in their marriage no matter what. And so the effect of this on victims of abuse is that it sides with the abuser. And victims of abuse have a hard time knowing what their options are for safety. In the light of this. Do you have any inkling as to what their underlying motivations are?
Gretchen: I can only guess. I’ve never sat in on their board meetings or executive committees, but I was a donor to them for years. I’ve given them thousands of dollars. And I’ve read all their books.
Motivations Behind Anti-Divorce Messaging
Gretchen: And I’ve listened to all their broadcasts, so I have a feel for the milieu of what’s going on over there. First of all, I think they make divorce a culture war issue. They want to say, we moral people, we religious people, we Christian people, we don’t divorce. That’s for quitters. That’s for people who just can’t go the distance. So they have a culture war reason to do it. This is a non-profit organization that depends on the donations of people like me and others.
So if you can say, ooh, the boogeyman, the enemy, is divorce. And those lazy quitters, those divorcees who follow the Hollywood divorce lifestyle, then you can bring in more money. And again, like I said, I’ve never been told this, but being a longtime listener, I feel it when I listen to their broadcasts. We’re the moral people in America. If you want your money to promote morality, send it to us at Focus on the Family.
Another issue is that they don’t believe the Bible says you can divorce for abuse. Now that’s because they ignore two verses in the Old Testament. In their mind, they don’t have a verse that specifically says that. Although there are several verses that do. Third, they love to say God hates divorce. Even in their articles on what to do if you discover your husband has been doing unthinkable child molesting to a child in your home.
It’s unbelievable, and I don’t get it. In that same article, where they talk about pedophiles being married to a pedophile. They say God hates divorce. They can’t even bring themselves to say, God hates child abuse. Get the heck out of there, divorce this guy.
What Does The Bible Say About Divorce And Marriage: Misinterpretations Of Research On Divorce
Gretchen: Nor do they say Jesus in the New Testament condoned divorce for sexual immorality. I think it’s either the culture war issue. They want to bring in the money from donors by promoting themselves as the only moral and decent voice in America. And then, you know, they have a religious angle too.
Anne: News to focus on the family. If in an article about someone abusing a child, you say the bible says divorce is the worst part. Instead of abuse, you do not have the moral high ground. So, now back to myth number four. We were talking about that before if you divorce, your kids will suffer even more than they are now, and it will never get better.
Gretchen: I want to talk about a book we discussed earlier called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce. This book has been so powerful in our society for 22 years. And like I said, one page kind of demeans divorcees as selfish. And just wanting to prance off to the grass is greener, and just find another partner. What people miss is the rest of the book. where Dr. Judith Wallerstein, the author, talks about the other side of divorce.
But why is this so important, why would I bring up a 22 year old book? It’s because I still hear people quoting it. I saw a major pastor quote it extensively last year. And so I jumped in and said, Hey, you missed the quote on page 300. Hey, you missed the quote on page 19, You’re getting it wrong. Hey, you’re misinterpreting what Dr. Wallerstein said in this book. This book is so powerful in our collective conscious, whether you’re religious or not.
Quotes From Dr. Wallerstein
Gretchen: Brand new textbooks that were just released in the last year on family sociology still have multiple paragraphs debunking Dr. Judith Wallerstein’s book. If these professors who are writing textbooks still consider her book to be a danger 22 years later, I think we need to address that.
Okay, so here’s what people need to know from Dr. Judith Wallerstein. She says, “Children raised in extremely unhappy or violent intact homes face misery in childhood and tragic challenges in adulthood.”
Here’s another quote. And this is from the same book, by the way. She says, “I’m not against divorce. How could I be? I’ve seen more examples of wretched, demeaning, and abusive marriage than most of my colleagues. I’m keenly aware of the suffering. I’m also aware that for many parents, the decision to divorce is the most difficult decision in their lives. They cry many a night before taking such a drastic step.”
Well, that kind of contradicts her one page in the book, where she accuses us all of being selfish. Here’s another from the introduction of that book. She says, “And of course, I’m aware that many voices on the radio, on television, and in certain religious circles say divorce is sinful. But I don’t know of any research, mine included, that says divorce is universally detrimental to children.”
I feel like she’s done so much damage. I want to read one more. “Although our overall findings are troubling and serious, we should not point the finger of blame at divorce per se. Indeed, divorce is often the only rational solution to a bad marriage. When people ask if they should stay for the sake of the children, I have to say, of course not.”
Cherry-Picking Data To Support Myths
Anne: The “damage” she has done wasn’t her. It was people taking the one thing she said, and then ignoring all the other things. I mean, they could have used the other stuff instead. What does the Bible say about divorce and marriage?
Gretchen: Right, it’s called cherry picking, and it’s also fraudulent when you say this is what this researcher believes. And then you ignore 90% of what she said, and you only cherry pick the one thing. And Focus on the Family is a big perpetrator of this. They’ve articles on their website today where they’ve removed four words from a quote. That dramatically changes the meaning. They’ve left whole sentences out of quotes that dramatically changed the quotes meaning.
They tell you that Wallerstein said children are destroyed. In reality, Wallerstein herself, who was indeed one of the most negative of the researchers. Still herself said 7 out of 10 kids of divorce came out fine. So, there’s just this misinformation. This myth is another one Focus on the Family loves to put out there.
Myth 5: Kids Will Be Abused By Stepparents:
Gretchen: I’ve seen it on several other websites, and it says that if you divorce and remarry. Their new stepdad will abuse your kids. And although it happens, and I don’t want to minimize this at all, there are definitely abusers out there. I am sure there are many on dating apps, and I’m sure there are many watching for women with young children. But it doesn’t happen as often as these organizations want you to believe.
For example, about 4 in 100 step parent families, so blended families, have reported an incident of child abuse of any kind. So it’s four in 100. If that’s what’s holding you in your abusive marriage, because your next relationship would have a four in 100 chance, I think you better rethink that.
Anne: But they’re abused now, so there’s a 100% chance they’ll be abused in your home where you live. If you don’t get divorced. You’re trading the 100 percent chance they currently have of being abused for a 4 in 100 chance of being abused by a stepparent, assuming you are legally required to get remarried? But you’re not required to be remarried. So you can just get divorced, and then that four out of a hundred chance goes to zero.
Gretchen: It’s all part of a pantheon of allegations they make that try to undermine single moms. You won’t have very much money, and your sons won’t have an example. Be ready for all of these to roll out for Father’s Day. You’re going to hear all of these in social media. Kids are always better off with a dad. Heck no, they’re not. Not if the dad has more than three of the seven antisocial traits. That father’s actually damaging the kids.
Studies On Kids’ Outcomes Post-Divorce
Gretchen: So I get exactly what you’re saying. And as a person who was single myself for 20 years after my divorce. And I raised my little children all by myself. We hear this all the time, oh, pregnancy, drinking, drugs, and everything. At least in my world, we were all told that our kids would fail in life if we got divorced, it does not say this in the bible. We were told it says divorce is bad. That they would drop out of school, do drugs, get pregnant, on and on.
But it turns out that when you look closely at those studies by family type. Kids raised by single parents usually do as well, or only slightly worse, like a smidgen worse than kids from two parent homes. So let me describe a few studies where kids of divorce do indeed fare just a tiny bit worse than kids from two parent married homes. The first is a study of substance abuse kids from ages 12 to 17.
And it turns out that only six in a hundred kids from single mother homes had a substance abuse problem. Compared to, get ready for this, only 5 in 100 kids from married two parent homes. That’s only 1 in 100 kids. That’s not much. Let’s look at behavior problems in school. Somebody sent me a text message and said, Oh my goodness, have you seen this horrible study? It says that kids from single parent homes are 60% more likely to be expelled or suspended from school.
Will Kids Thank You For Divorcing?
Gretchen: So I looked at the actual data from the research, and it said, okay, granted. Five in a hundred kids from married birth parent family ever get suspended or expelled, okay? How much higher do you think it is for kids from single? It’s only eight. Eight in a hundred kids from separated or divorced mom homes. So, they want us to believe it’s five in a hundred kids in two parent married homes. It must be fifty in a hundred kids from separated or divorced mom homes.
It’s not. It’s only three in a hundred more. Please stop, stop the fear bombing. Stop trying to coerce us and manipulate us to stay with these guys. There’s one last thing I want to talk about, and that is, will my kids thank me for divorcing? I did a poll last week of 3, 500 on Facebook. I asked, is at least one of your children glad you divorced? And eight in ten respondents said yes, at least one of my children supported the divorce.
One in ten said, well, I’ve never asked. And one in ten said, “No, none of my children were in favor or supportive of the divorce.”
We were always told that kids would hate their parents and resent you for the rest of their lives for divorcing. And that’s absolutely not true. What we have been told isn’t what it says. My kids would say, Mom, we’re so glad you divorced Dad. And they would also say, we don’t feel any different from any other kids. We feel just like kids from two parent homes.
The Bible Says Stay Away From Evil
Gretchen: Yeah, when researchers found kids of divorce who had serious problems later in life. Often they discovered they had behavior problems long before the divorce. Maybe as long as 12 years before the divorce. In other words, the destructive home caused the problems, not by the divorce itself.
Anne: Regardless of whether or not you’re considering divorce. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop will teach you the strategies you need to get to emotional safety. The Bible says we are to stay away from evil. Divorce may be a step on your journey to safety. Many women still face post separation and post divorce abuse. So make sure you get the strategies you need to create a safe home.
Gretchen, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
Gretchen: Wow, it’s been a privilege, Anne. Thank you for having me.
How To Heal From A Divorce You Didn’t Want – Ava’s Story
Dec 06, 2022
Are you wondering how to heal from a divorce you didn’t want? If you’re trying to heal from a divorce you didn’t want, there is a community of women who understand. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
Many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions mourn the loss of the life they hoped for and dreamed of. None of us got married, hoping to experience abuse and betrayal. And when abuse and betrayal were uncovered, most of us invested deeply in anything we could “save” the marriage. Often to the detriment of our own mental and physical health. It’s important to understand that divorce doesn’t end our marriage, abuse and betrayal ended our marriage.
Abuse conditions victims to put their own needs and desires at the bottom of every list. Often, women feel selfish and silly for prioritizing themselves in any capacity. Some may even feel fear for doing so. Choosing to prioritize yourself is a conscious decision that is both healthy and necessary to create and curate a beautiful life for yourself post-divorce. It takes practice and deliberate effort, but you can do it!
Are you wondering if you are a victim of emotional abuse post divorce? Take ourfree emotional abuse quiz to find out.
“How Can I Do Any Of This When I Don’t Even Know Myself Anymore?”
Most women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions have expressed a loss of identity through their years of experiencing betrayal and abuse. The fear of building a new life without a firm grasp of your own identity is real and understandable. When you’re trying to heal from a divorce you didn’t want. You begin to remember and rebuild your identity when you reconnect with your value system. You can ask yourself questions like:
What morals, values, and deep truths are most important to me?
What values have I consistently thought back on, even if I have not been able to live up to them in moments of self-defense or protective action?
And what values do I find most admirable in other people?
Examining and choosing your value system is a powerful way to ground yourself down in who you are. Divorce is one of the most difficult topics that we discuss in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, but it’s essential that women going through this process have a safe space to process their emotions and thoughts. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY and discover a community committed to helping you heal from a divorce you didn’t want.
Transcript: Heal From A Divorce You Didn’t Want
Anne: I have Ava on today’s episode. She went through her own divorce, and we’re going to talk about how to heal from a divorce you didn’t want. Welcome Ava.
Ava: Thank you. I appreciate you having me here. Most people I think heading into divorce would call it the worst time of their life. Just the amount of undoing and falling apart feels overwhelming. And then, sometimes a year later or years later, we will look back and see that what we went through shaped us in some meaningful way. That likely couldn’t have happened without all that catastrophe.
Anne: I think I’d call it like the worst time that helped me grow or something.
Ava: Yeah, right. And that’s exactly it, that’s exactly it. It’s the best thing that happened to make me who I am today. I wouldn’t choose it and don’t want it. I would have avoided it if I could, but it created results in me that I treasure.
Anne: For me, it’s been a number of years, and now I feel that way. I’ve learned so much the hard way. I’m always learning things the hard way.
Ava: I don’t think there’s any other way.
Anne: There is no other way. I recently talked to a friend, and she found herself like, Oh, why didn’t I do that? Because I didn’t think my situation rose to the level of those extremes. I thought you were talking about, but now I wish I had done that. And I’m thinking all of us did that, right? We all thought, no, no, no, I can handle it or do it this way. And I’ll be fine.
Uncovering Truths About Your Spouse
Anne: And we didn’t understand the situation. Or we didn’t understand the consequences. Then we were stuck with them, and now we all know better, but we all know better too late. It’s almost like if we could go back in time, we would do it all better. To heal from a divorce you didn’t want. So maybe on our second divorce, we’ll do awesome.
Ava: Yeah, you don’t understand who your spouse is. And as you move through divorce, you uncover truths that you either previously weren’t aware of or that come to light in new ways. And especially when abuse is involved, it can be devastating, especially on your ability to cope with the crazy that the legal process of divorce will throw at you.
Anne: Well, and I think everyone listening to this podcast understands they’re in a relationship with an abusive man. That’s who this podcast is for. But the divorce process helps women understand the level of abuse they’re experiencing. Which is way more extreme than they ever realized, and that’s why it’s so devastating. Because they’re not aware of how abusive the person is, they’re not prepared.
They don’t practice strategic ways of dealing with an abuser beforehand. Because they don’t know they need to do it until they’ve tried all the other things, and they’re like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So this is really, really bad, and that’s hard. I always want to find some way to help victims avoid learning that. But I don’t think there is any other way to learn it other than trial and error. You think, no, I’ll be able to deal with this person rationally.
The Legal Process & Its Challenges
Anne: And then you realize later, I couldn’t. But nobody jumps from zero to this person is a scary, scary person. Unless they’ve had a lot of experience with that person.
Ava: Right, and so much of that is encountering the reality of it. What you’re talking about, trying to avoid the path through. It’s exactly that. You can’t change the way you address reality until you’re looking at it. And to look at it is so exquisitely painful. And so when you get in it, you can start to get creative. But so much of our creativity gets blocked by the trauma itself.
Anne: It’s hard to heal from a divorce you didn’t want, especially when you share kids.
Ava: Especially.
Anne: The kid part is so hard, because you are continually being abused through the divorce process. And then after you’re divorced. So then it’s learning how to protect yourself from the abuse post divorce. Which is so, so hard.
Ava: Yeah, he’s going to be who he’s going to be anyway. And who am I going to become as a result? Carving out who you are separate and apart from what this marriage was. And that can be particularly sticky. When you have an abuser who is constantly trying to insert themselves in what it looks like for you to have a life.
Anne: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. That’s the exact same path. It’s not just related to divorce, but also to abuse recovery in general. Moving forward with the life you want to create, regardless of what he’s doing or choosing to do.
Ava: Right.
Heal From A Divorce You Didn’t Want: Shifting Focus From We To Me
Ava: The years we’re investing in marriage are very much a we. We’re always thinking about the we, even if that we is filled with abuse. We’re still thinking, how can I make this we better? To separate in a way that starts to only consider me.
And that can feel like a big jump at first. This idea of, well, how is that going to work? It sounds selfish. It sounds a little myopic in the way you’re thinking about it. But when we think what is best for me. We start to get a lot more creative about the activities. That we’re going to undertake to get through this painful experience of divorce.
Anne: Yeah, and in abuse recovery in general, let’s pretend for a minute that you weren’t going to get divorced. You would still move from a we to a me place. The whole point of abuse recovery and heal from a divorce you didn’t want is to find the kind of life that you want, and start making your way toward that life.
Ava: Yeah, when you get an abusive situation, where your will and your ego cannot overcome it, you get an invitation into the second half of life. And the second half of life is where we’re no longer operating in the structures that made sense for everybody else.
It’s a unique part of being a person who is moving through divorce with an abuser. You don’t get to live the way everybody else does. And so, I’m going to have to adult in ways that sometimes seem unfair, because not everybody else has to do it. But for me, it’s still the most necessary part of what it means to be a free, full individual.
Anne: Yeah.
Living Free & Finding Independence
Anne: That’s why I titled The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, Living Free. Because with those strategies, you’re finding your independence for the first time. And that’s a big deal. You’ve lived for 45, 50, or 30 years in a different way. And this will be a totally different way of perceiving the world, of interacting with the world.
Ava: Yeah, and it’s a breaking and remaking. I think some people resist it because they don’t think it should be happening, and it shouldn’t have to happen. The truth is anybody who’s gone on any meaningful spiritual adventure has this breaking and remaking moment. Whatever it is, you get a portal. You’ll get several chances in life to take the portal into this space. A different space where you learn how to become the kind of person who can actually handle far more than you realize.
Anne: it really is a miracle, at least with my own personal story. When I look back and think about the times where I knew I could not handle it. I knew I couldn’t, in my gut, in my soul, it was like, this is too much. This is too hard. I shouldn’t have to do this. Why am I forced to do it? And now looking back and thinking, I did handle it. Like, even in those moments where I knew I couldn’t, now I’m like, I was.
And the same thing with all our listeners, you are doing it. It might not feel like it. You might feel terrible. You’re taking one small step at a time. And when you look back, you’ll realize I survived. I did handle that. You’ll realize you were able to heal from a divorce you didn’t want.
Handling The Divorce Process
Anne: Even if it feels like you’re not currently doing that. And there were so many times where I wasn’t doing it well. When you’re doing it badly, trying to heal from a divorce you didn’t want.
Ava: Yeah, we have an imagination though. That handling looks like I got my nails and my hair done. I’m in a great outfit, and I have a good attitude about it. That’s not what handling it looks like. None of us have made it through the darkest moments of our lives, looking like we were handling it. What handling it looks like is allowing the complete destruction of what was. And we resist that, because it shouldn’t be that way.
We don’t want it to have to be that way. So therefore it shouldn’t have to be that way. But handling it has a lot more to do with surrendering to the fact that it’s going to happen anyway. And how do I start aligning myself with the fact that I actually will make it through. And who do I want be as I do it?
Anne: I like it when you said, this shouldn’t be happening, I don’t want it to happen. The same friend I was talking to, she said, this doesn’t happen in real life. There’s always a way to fix things.
It feels like you’re disembodied or watching yourself from far away and thinking, wait, wait, wait, this cannot be happening. And then realizing it is happening. I’m guessing that’s probably why many women don’t prepare or get a lot of information they need beforehand. And then they’re struggling throughout their divorce.
Heal From A Divorce You Didn’t Want: Putting Up Christmas Lights
Ava: And you know, that resistance shouldn’t be this way. Resistance always exposes us to what we value. Up until now, I valued family, safety, connectedness, and it seems like those things are now going away. How can I still value a sense of connectedness and family and make that happen for me and my children? When it’s not going to happen in the context of what I believe is typical for everybody else.
Anne: You saying that reminds me of something that I thought was important, and that was putting Christmas lights up. So even just a little simple thing or it’s not simple, I couldn’t figure out how to put them up. But to me, having Christmas lights outside my house for my kids means I care about my family. I care about Christmas. I’m going to continue to uphold traditions I had before, but how do I get these things on my house? This was overwhelming.
So I paid a kid in the neighborhood 20 bucks, and he put my Christmas lights up. I thought I needed a husband to put Christmas lights up. Hopefully, a husband is way more useful than just putting Christmas lights up. But when they were up, I felt like I’m living this value that I thought I had to depend on someone else for overcoming. That and then overcoming the next thing, maybe it’s mowing the lawn, maybe it’s a family reunion. When trying to heal from a divorce you didn’t want.
I don’t know what that next thing is, but just one thing at a time. And then now, a number of years later, Christmas lights are not that important to me. But at the time, that was a symbol of something.
Continuing Family Values
Anne: That’s one thing I want women to think of too. You might be putting a lot of value on something like Christmas lights, thinking I have to do this thing. This thing matters, but it’s too hard or too expensive. And taking a step back and maybe realizing, what is the metaphor here? And even if I can’t afford to pay someone in my neighborhood to put the Christmas lights up.
Is there something else I can do to feel like I’m supporting my family and have these family values through Christmas? Which of course, obviously, would be spending more time with my kids. Or doing something actually meaningful. Rather than Christmas lights. But, taking that step back and realizing what your base motivation is. Is always a good step for how to take the next step forward.
Because there will be things that we cannot do. We’re not super people. And so through divorce, there’s going to be maybe things we’re not able to do that we want to do that we think are like the epitome of what our values are. But we can be creative and roll with the punches. While you heal from a divorce you didn’t want. You can continue to keep values even if it doesn’t look the way we thought it should look originally.
Ava: Right, the knee jerk response is to look at the activity. Well, we can’t do the things we used to do because of this explosion in our life, and what your encouragement is. How do we step back and go, there’s a value behind this activity. How do I tweak the activity to match what my life looks like now?
Realistic Healing From Divorce
Ava: So that I can preserve that value. Even though I may have lost the exact tradition or way of doing it. I will still communicate the value to my people, the essence of the holidays for me meant time as a family. What does that mean when I have 50% time and how do I keep these values alive and be open to a different expression of them?
Anne: And many of the things that I thought were super important. The metaphors, I guess, the Christmas lights or whatever when it got down to it. They were actually quite hollow. Spending time with my kids in a different way was way more important, and that is what I’ve learned. Finally, after I gave up worrying about the Christmas lights.
So if you’re grappling with how to heal from a divorce you didn’t want, let’s talk about realistic healing. Like what does that look like on a practical level?
Ava: So my former partner has already given me years, sometimes decades, of evidence of their poor predictable behavior. And yet we go into communications with an expectation higher than reality. There seems to be an impulse to still go, maybe this time when we communicate, it’ll be a little better. If I use these words, it’ll happen a little better. The reality is he’s a jerk. He’s going to talk like a jerk, and he’s not going to be cooperative.
When we talk about realistic healing, it’s really being able to return again and again to reality. And we text to that reality. And we email to that reality, and we anticipate that reality
Heal From A Divorce You Didn’t Want: Managing Expectations & Communication
Anne: Yeah, that is for sure. That’s why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It’s is all about that. It’s not about texting in a way that he’s going to act differently. It’s anticipating that he will act this way, and knowing how to message him in a way that protects us.
Ava: Yeah, I love that. I didn’t want to be the person who makes it harder by expecting something out of my former partner. They’ve clearly given no evidence that they’re interested in becoming. Now, how do I text to that person?
Anne: Yeah, I think you just hit on something. They actually did promise it in so many of these situations. Because there are these periods of oh, I will always take care of you and the kids. The grooming part feels like they can be reasonable. Knowing that all those behaviors are grooming is a hard mental shift for so many victims to realize. The words that this person says don’t mean anything.
When you’re trying to heal from a divorce you didn’t want. Actions are the only thing I can trust or believe, and when we make that shift, we can live in reality. Because they have created this world through words manufactured on purpose to keep her in the fog of abuse. He has lied, deceived, and manipulated using those grooming type words, and it’s hard to know that it was never true.
Grieving & Accepting Reality
Ava: Yeah, there’s tremendous grief involved in letting someone become the miserable mess they are. What you know you can count on is, I will get words, and then I will get opposite actions. Based on that reality, I now know that those words are not something I need to focus on. They’re irrelevant to the conversation.
Anne: Yeah, that took me a long time. But when I got it, I got it. Especially because I was searching for strategies to deal with that. Like how do I protect myself from this? When I discovered the Living Free Workshop strategies, once you get it, you get it. You can’t unsee it. So for you, what was the hardest part of trying to heal from a divorce you didn’t want?
Ava: You know, the inability to say yes to the life I didn’t expect. When we say, no, it shouldn’t be this way. No, I can’t do this. No, I won’t do this, no, it’s not fair. When we put that no out there, that is the limit of where we can grow. And so to start to say tentatively scared, maybe even in a panicked way, I’m going to start aligning myself with reality. I can then say yes to the life I didn’t expect.
From a faith based perspective, we had a plan, and that plan didn’t line up with where the divine was going to lead our lives. And when we sit and throw a very understandable, sympathetic tantrum about not getting it that way.
Anne: I did that for a long time.
Ava: I did too! It’s part of the process, you know, when you talk about the things you want to circumvent.
The Journey Of Personal Transformation
Ava: And just going, no, no, no. You’d think if I get loud enough, or if I get rowdy enough, I’ll somehow get some power in that. But the power truly comes in aligning yourself with what is. There is power in surrendering to the way it’s going to be. There is a strength in that, I think most people don’t find initially. But they warm to, and I didn’t know that before my divorce.
I couldn’t trust that before my divorce, but now I can. And that means life can look very different and free in a very different way due to who I’ve become now.
Anne: The who I’ve become now part is super interesting, because you don’t know you’re becoming that person in the process. It’s like one day you wake up and feel good, and the sun is out and you’re not crying. And then you look back and you’re like, Oh wow, I’ve changed. But you don’t know you’re changing while you’re changing. You can only recognize it looking backwards.
I love like now looking back and realizing, wow, I did grow from this experience. But it’s only looking back that we get a good view of that. After you’ve begun to heal from a divorce you didn’t want.
Ava: Yeah. And when we project into the future, I have to raise kids with this. person for 10 years. I’m going to fall apart. There’s no way I can do that. What we don’t realize is the person you’re going to become a year from now, two years from now, 10 years from now. Who’s actually much different than the person you are right now.
Heal From A Divorce You Didn’t Want: The Power Of Small Steps
Ava: I think you and I both can look back and go, even in the last year, we’ve become different people. And yet when we cast forward, we always cast forward the same person. We have no imagination about who it is we could become. But I think once you have an experience of it. Like you have, and like I have, you start to go, Oh, wait, there’s something going on behind the scenes here. That’s actually growing me into something.
I think we also expect those growths to be leaps. They’re going to be like big, Oh, I finally get it, like a big, oh right! Instead, it is, at least in my experience, a thousand little ahas built on the back of daily small decisions. To move from we, to me, to figure out those values, to hire the person to get the Christmas lights. It’s those little things that compound into the big, Whoa, look at me. I am totally different. And I actually like me better now.
Anne: So for those of you listening to this and thinking, no, no, no. That’s not going to happen. There’s not going to be a day where I’m going to wake up and feel good. That you won’t heal from a divorce you didn’t want. It’s just bad, and it’s going to be bad. I want to validate that, because I lived in that for a long time. We’re here to sit in that place with you for a while. And then I also want to say, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
And right now, if that is too painful to think about, it’s okay. It’s okay to have those times of despair, hopelessness, and those emotions that we’ve all felt.
Writing Down A Realistic Profile Of Who He Is
Anne: We will stand at the end of the tunnel and wait for you. And greet you gently when you get there. Because I remember when I was in that stage, and I would hear people talk about the light at the end of the tunnel, which is, I feel like I’ve arrived there now, which is great. But I remember back then being very angry, and not believing it. So I just want to leave a space if you’re in that stage right now. In the process to heal from a divorce you didn’t want.
Ava: Yeah, we’ll hold the hope for you until you can hold it yourself.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. For women considering divorce or starting the divorce process, who probably have a lot of heavy and scared emotions, right? And they’re working through this. What do you think they need to know?
Ava: I think the realistic profile of my former partner and really writing it down. This is what I can predictably count on almost every day from this person. He will ignore me and berate me. Getting clear about who you are about to divorce. So that you don’t start believing the false promises. Like you mentioned, you really go, this is the person I’m divorcing.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. Using the Living Free strategies to determine his true character, yeah.
Ava: That’s exactly it. I’m going to look at who are the people I can count on. Very tethered to reality, which again, I would say is the most important thing to do.
Reality Grounding Items
Anne: I love that. I love that. I had a hole in the wall. It was obviously patched from a hole in the wall he punched. And whenever I think, am I crazy? Is it me? What happened? I would go down and feel that patch, and it would help ground me back in reality.
Women will have different things, like a log of journal entries or a positive STD test they received. There could be many reality checks that when you feel unmoored a little bit and wondering what reality is. You can feel something tangible or touch something like your journal that can help ground you into reality, because reality is the way to help you heal from a divorce you didn’t want.
Ava: And then once you’ve touched that reality, journal, in a repeated way, journal. I will become the person who can get through this. Because your brain will tell you you can’t get through it, and it might be right on some level. When you can start telling your brain, you’re right, but I will figure it out. It puts your brain on the search for how it could figure it out.
I’m willing to not know right now, on my way to knowing soon. I may not be bold enough right now. I may not be courageous enough right now, but I am willing to become the person who can do this.
Anne: Yeah, that’s awesome. I love that. I remember thinking, I’m not a super person. Because I can’t do all these things. And I just felt so overwhelmed by the amount of things to do and the complexity of everything, like single parenting. Plus all the divorce documents, plus mowing the lawn, all the things all at once.
Heal From A Divorce You Didn’t Want: Seeking Help & Building Support
Anne: You are on your way to becoming that person that can do it. In the meantime, there were so many times where I just needed to ask someone for help. And they were there ready to help me. And I have found that so many victims just do not want to ask for help. It’s embarrassing and humiliating, maybe sometimes they don’t feel like they even have someone they can ask. When you are trying to heal from a divorce you didn’t want.
I just want to throw it out there that sometimes you can even ask a neighbor who you’re not that close to. Sometimes asking for help helps you get the support network you need. It’s a way to make friends. It’s a way to interact and connect with people. And the worst case scenario is they’ll say no. They were saying no before when you didn’t ask them. So you’re not losing anything. It feels risky, but they weren’t helping before, and they’re not helping now if they say no.
Ava: I’m becoming the person who’s learning to ask people to help. Asking for help is also aligning yourself with reality. To say to somebody I need help, because this is the reality I live in.
Anne: Because we are not super people, we’re just regular people. Who are, through the process of this, actually becoming super people, which is awesome.
Aligning With Reality Today
Ava: If there’s one message from it, it’s how do I figure out how to align myself with reality today?
Anne: That is exactly why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies. Because I was in this place where I couldn’t figure out reality. It was so frustrating for eight years post divorce. I could not heal, because I was still being injured all the time. I couldn’t protect myself. So when I discovered the strategies, and saw that these strategies work, whether you’re married, separated or divorced. They help you see reality.
I mean, if you’re looking for how to heal from a divorce you didn’t want, reality is the answer. And the Living Free strategies teach you how to see reality and then what to do with that reality. I think anyone who has truth or reality as their goal will get there one step at a time, one action at a time. As a woman of faith. I feel like God cares about that. So if that’s your intent and where your heart is, you will get there. God will help you get there, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Thank you so much, Ava for coming on today’s episode.
Ava: I’m so grateful to be with you. And send a lot of courage to people who are listening right now, because reality is sometimes scary. Truth can be a very scary thing. And I just want to send a blessing on the path.
Anne: Thank you so much.
The Truth About Forgiving Abuse With Valerie Hudson
Nov 29, 2022
Have clergy or therapists pushed you toward forgiving abuse? Here’s why that’s so damaging.
Before you discover the truth about forgiving abuse, confirm it’s abuse by taking ourfree emotional abuse quiz to find out.
Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation (They’re Not The Same Thing)
Betrayal Trauma Recovery is inter-paradigm. Religious and non-religious victims can accept that reconciliation is not only unnecessary, but inadvisable in working toward the process of forgiving abuse.
Forgiveness does not mean:
Staying in a relationship with your abuser
Spending time with your abuser
Accepting responsibility for your abuser’s choices
Continuing to associate with your abuser’s family and friends
Continuing to associate or attend community or religious services in the same location as your abuser
Staying legally married to your abuser even if you are living separately
Forgiveness & “Turning The Other Cheek”
When clergy and religious therapists counsel women to “turn the other cheek” by forgiving abuse or relinquish judgment against their abusers, they are putting victims in danger. “Turning the other cheek” simply doesn’t make sense in the context of abuse and betrayal:
Instead, victims can hold abusers accountable by:
Reporting crime
Distancing themselves from abuse
Forgiveness Is About Justice – Not Mercy
Ultimately, forgiving abuse is about justice, not mercy. Trauma victims can find solace in accepting that it isn’t their responsibility to grant mercy to their abusers – it’s their duty to hold abusers accountable for the abuse. While this may feel daunting, victims can take small steps to seek safety.
Choosing to believe in natural consequences while taking empowering steps toward safety is the process of forgiveness.
Harmful societal scripts that place the burden of forgiving abuse and reconciliation on traumatized victims can be difficult to work through. Victims need a safe place to process trauma and create healthier ways to begin healing. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY and find the community you need to help you on your healing journey today.
Transcript: The Truth About Forgiving Abuse
Anne: I am honored to have Valerie M. Hudson on today’s episode. She is a distinguished University professor. And holds the George H. W. Bush Chair in the Department of International Affairs in the George Bush School of Government and Public Service at Texas A & M University. Where she directs the program on women, peace and security.
Anne: She has many wonderful accomplishments and books she’s written. So I encourage everyone to look at her body of work. It’s amazing, and I’m so grateful for that. Valerie will talk about her article, Forgiveness of Abuse and Atrocity:What It Is and What It Is Not,(A Guide for the Perplexed Christian Woman). She sent this over to me. It hits on every concern that abuse victims face when confronted with this question of forgiving abuse.
Maybe a therapist or family member, or maybe clergy, told her, you need to forgive kind of advice or counsel. It is actually hurtful or harmful to the victim, rather than being helpful. So to start Valerie, thank you for writing this. It’s incredible.
Valerie’s Inspiration For Writing The Article
Valerie: Believe it or not, I wrote this article in a 72 hour period following the birth of one of my children. It overcame me in a rush, and I could not help but put pen to paper. So I would hold my little baby in one arm and nurse him while typing away with my other hand. I look back on that period, which is amazing. And realized that my spirit had put together many of the lessons I had learned prior to that time paid for in blood and tears.
If I put them together in one monstrous essay, you would interview me one day. And perhaps to help others by some of the knowledge I gained.
Anne: Well, I appreciate it. I already posted it on our Facebook page, and I’m trying to get the word out to everyone. Like read this, read this! It is so incredible, so you talk about forgiving abuse and atrocity. How are abuse and atrocity different from other offenses? In forgiving abuse?
Valerie: Yes, I really think that if we’re going to talk about forgiveness. We have to understand that to forgive slights, to forgive microaggressions, those kinds of things are a very different kettle of fish. Than forgiving the person who has raped you, the person who has murdered your child.
I think it’s important that while we are enjoined to freely forgive those who have slighted us. We may one day slight others ourselves. That it’s different with atrocity, because we’re never going to murder somebody. We’re never going to rape somebody. And these are the deep, deep harms that attack the soul of a human being. And in that case, I think we need to tease out what forgiving abuse means.
Abuse Is A Profound Betrayal Of Trust
Anne: One of the definitions you have for abuse in this article is a profound betrayal of trust, which I talk about on the podcast all the time. That years and years of psychological abuse surrounding someone’s exploitative materials use. Where they’re living a double life, gaslighting their spouse and dismissing her concerns. Lying is emotionally abusive. That is profound psychological and emotional abuse surrounding perhaps their pornography use or maybe the affairs they have.
And you talk about this several times in this article. Down at the bottom, you actually give an example of someone abandoning their family due to a So? Before we talk about the forgiving abuse element of this, which I want to spend a lot of time on.
Can you talk about why the world doesn’t see psychological abuse or emotional abuse, gaslighting, or betrayal in forms of living a double life with affairs and pornography as abuse? Why do you think the general population, even people in the church, don’t see that as a serious form of abuse? And recommend forgiving abuse.
Valerie: I think males tend to be those disinclined to see that serious abuse. I think females tend to be those inclined to see it as serious abuse. I’m not a psychologist, so all I can say is that sometimes men have a greater ability to compartmentalize. And say yeah, I watched pornography. But hey, I still love you. That all makes sense for them.
I think for most women, the viewing of exploitative material is clearly an infidelity. It’s a betrayal of trust, and it is deeply wounding. And there is complexity involved in forgiving abuse.
The Truth About Forgiving Abuse: The Legacy of Male Perspectives In Institutions
Valerie: Many of our religious and secular institutional leaders are men with male perspectives. And I think we see this legacy in our rape laws and other kinds of things. Where questions like, well, what were you wearing or what time of night was it? Or had you been drinking? Somehow excuse the rape, explain it, make it seem more natural that she was raped. And that is a real male perspective on things. So I see this as a legacy of the dominance of our religious and secular spaces by men.
Anne: This is when it’s important for women to understand how to recognize victim blaming. I want to quote you, this is from her article. “The betrayed spouse is told to ‘make peace’ for the sake of the children, but it is often a peace based on lies and concealment of abuse.” And, this happens with use as well. When people are told, well, make sure you don’t tell anyone about it, support his recovery, keep it quiet. You’re going to be the worst sinner if you don’t end up forgiving.
https://youtube.com/shorts/ixVDYZDSVfc
So let’s transition into talking about forgiving abuse and your definition of forgiveness. I had never even considered before reading this article, but once I read it, I was like, yes, this makes sense. I totally get it, because I was told so many times. Why aren’t you just forgiving abuse? And so many members of our community have when we continue to hold boundaries for our own safety.
Rather than recognizing that this abuse is still ongoing, I need to hold these boundaries for my own safety. People are like, what’s wrong with you? Why are you holding a boundary? You should be forgiving. because that’s what Christ says. So can you tell your definition of forgiveness?
Valerie’s Definition Of Forgiveness
Valerie: I distinguish between forgiveness and reconciliation. Forgiveness is between you and God. Reconciliation is between you, God, and the abuser. And I think this is where the confusion comes in. I think people use the term forgiveness when they mean reconciliation. They’re confusing these two concepts. So what I ask people to do in this essay is understand that forgiving abuse means something that happens between you and God, not the abuser.
And what happens between you and God is that you choose sincerely to have faith in God’s justice, not God’s mercy. But God’s justice, and you can do that without involving the abuser at all. In fact, it has nothing to do with the abuser, and because it has nothing to do with the abuser. Forgiving abuse does not mean that you have to return to a relationship with your abuser. It does not mean you have to lower your barriers to an abuser and invite them back into your life.
It doesn’t mean you have to keep silent about the abuser or hide their abuse from the authorities. No, no, no, forgiveness means you believe in God’s justice, and you are not prepared to exact justice yourself on the abuser. But you will leave it to God, and you will leave it to civil authorities. And you will not stoke hatred in your heart, because you so sincerely believe justice will be done.
Anne: I’ve been listening to the Psalms lately when I can’t sleep, and they put me back to sleep. And I appreciate you bringing this up in this article about David and writing the Psalms about the justice of God.
Forgiveness Is About Believing In God’s Justice
Anne: Thinking of forgiveness, you said this. I’m going to quote you again. Your article says, “Forgiveness is not about believing in God’s mercy. Forgiveness is about believing in God’s justice.” And that speaks to my heart and the heart of all these victims, because that is one of the most difficult things to wrap your head around. You’ve seen these atrocities. You’ve been a victim of abuse, and it seems like you can’t get help.
Women might go to a therapist, or to clergy, or even in the court system right now. They’re trying to get help, and they’re not finding it. And so believing that God will hold them accountable and that they will have to pay in some way. Or that justice is served in God’s own way and in his own time. There is such a different view of forgiving abuse, because you can let that go to God and hopefully live in peace in the moment, and I just appreciated that.
Thank you so much. I think that definition is perfect, especially in this context. Have you had any pushback from this definition from people?
Valerie: No, actually not. I think it’s found its way mostly to women who have been abused. And I think their reaction is pretty much the same as yours. If I understood this before. I wouldn’t beat myself up for the fact that I didn’t feel good about going back to an abusive relationship. We hear folks quoting to us from the Bible. It’s up to you to forgive 70 times seven, or you remain the greater sin.
Forgiving Abuse: It Does Not Involve Reconciliation
Valerie: That changes completely when we understand that what God is talking about is a sincere belief in God’s justice and injustice. Civil authorities will administer it. We root it out of our own heart. We would otherwise be tempted to use the sword against our abuser. People are, I think, liberated by the notion that forgiving abuse does not involve reconciliation.
And that in fact, it may be part of one’s duty to God to not reconcile when there is a chance that reconciliation will harm innocence. I think it really changes things.
Anne: One of the things you talk about in the article is reporting to civil authorities. Husbands have raped many of our podcast listeners, so wife rape. Their husbands have lied and cheated them with money. Husbands commit actual crimes. Women don’t feel comfortable enough to report it. Because civil authorities chances of serving justice are very low.
Women have a hard time getting justice because they are married to the person. So victims consider these things when they’re thinking about reporting. Wives can’t report to authorities in cases of psychological abuse or emotional abuse. And clergy may not believe them. Do you have anything to say about that scenario? When it comes to believing in the justice of God and forgiving abuse. When we exhaust all earthly means, and there seems to be no earthly justice?
Valerie: Oh, I’m glad you asked that question. And I think it’s a compelling question. As we were talking about just a few minutes ago, I think our legal system is a legacy of male perspectives on these kinds of things. I mean, it took until the 1970s for the criminalization of marital rape. People simply assumed there was no rape before that. They were married.
Creating Distance From The Abuser
Valerie: Rape could not occur. He had his conjugal rights to use her body as he saw fit. Sometimes women will not count on civil authorities to administer earthly justice, though they can always count on God to administer heavenly justice. And I think that’s where the healing comes.
But in cases like that, to be perfectly honest with you, I think it’s incumbent upon the woman to begin to create a distance from the abuser. God does not want you to be abused. And I think it is incumbent upon a Christian disciple to escape an abusive relationship.
Anne: I want to talk about some of these, let’s say, misapplied Christian principles in the context of forgiving abuse.
But before that, you quoted a scripture that I often quote to victims, and it’s Alma 5:60. I love the scripture. I quote it all the time to victims, and it says, “and now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you. And if you will hearken unto his voice, he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep, and he commandeth you that you suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you. That ye may not be destroyed.”
I love that scripture. He’s commanding us to be safe, not abused. He’s commanding us to step away from that. So let’s talk about some of these often used misapplied Christian principles in forgiving abuse.
Turn the Other Cheek Misapplied
Anne: The first one being “turn the other cheek.” So can you talk about how that principle does not work in this context?
Valerie: One of the problems I think is that we are not living in the same time as Jesus Christ. And as a result, I think there are many things about the context of the turn the other cheek that are so different. So for example, one Christian theologian, James Talmadge had this to say. “Of old the principle of retaliation had been tolerated. By which one who suffered injury could exact or inflict a penalty of the same nature as the offense.”
“Thus an eye was demanded for the loss of an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for life. In contrast, Christ taught that men should rather suffer than do evil. To the extent of submission without resistance under certain implied conditions. His forceful illustrations that if one were smitten on the cheek, he should turn the other.”
“That if a man took another’s coat by process of law, the loser should also give his cloak. That if one was pressed into service to carry another’s burden a mile, he should willingly go two miles. One should readily give or lend his ass. These are not to be construed,” Talmadge says, “as commanding abject subservience to unjust demands. Nor as an abrogation of the principle of self protection.”
“Jesus directs these instructions primarily to the apostles. Who are devoted to the work of the kingdom, to the exclusion of all other interests. In their ministry, it would be better to suffer material loss or personal indignity at the hands of wicked oppressors. Than bring about an impairment of efficiency in a hindrance of work through resistance and contention.”
Forgiving Abuse: Misinterpretation Of Smiting the Other Cheek
Valerie: So no, if a man has molested your 10 year old, do not offer your six year old as well. If your husband has broken your left ribs, don’t offer him your right ribs to break. If a rapist enters your home to attack you and you shoot him dead, that’s not a failure to turn the other cheek. I think that if a Christian woman gets on her knees and asks God, God will tell her in no uncertain terms. No, I do not want you to be abused. That’s not what this example of smiting the other cheek means.
Anne: We know divorce feels terrible, and it doesn’t feel right. We know abuse isn’t right. The feelings confuse many Christian women. I think they often think the Spirit is telling them: No, it’s not right to divorce. Because they feel so terrible and don’t feel peace. And to women in that situation, I always want to say it’s the abuse talking. It’s this fog of abuse and manipulation that is talking.
When you face abuse, when you have to confront it, when you have to make your way out of it, there’s no part of that that’s going to feel peaceful, even forgiving abust. You might have moments of peace where you’re doing the right thing, even though you feel terrible. When something is so atrocious, I love that you use the word atrocity. It is not going to feel good.
There’s not going to be this like, Oh, I feel so good. This is perfect. I’m happy. This is fine. I’m making my way out of abuse.
God’s Will Against Abuse
Anne: It’s going to feel miserable until you can make it out of the fog. You shouldn’t let the misery and horror of realizing you’re abused stop you from making your way to safety and forgiving abuse.
Valerie: That’s absolutely right. You said that is so well. It boggles the mind that one would believe such a horrible thing about God. That God wants you to stay in an abusive relationship. I opened my essay by talking about a true story of an acquaintance. Her husband would beat her up, and she would go to the hospital. And she would lie and say she’d fallen down the stairs or something.
And her husband would say, don’t tell them. I’m so sorry. I’ll never do it again. And she would return to him. Then he beat her so badly she was in a coma. He was put in jail and her children were put in foster care. So tell me how God wanted that situation? Did God want her in a coma? Did God want these children in foster care? I don’t think so.
If you really love your abuser, the worst thing you could do to their soul is let them keep abusing you. Let that sink in for a minute. That is the worst thing, because they are on the path to hell. Beating and abusing you is part of their progression to hell.
Anne: Another Christian principle misapplied in this context is, love your enemies and do good to them that despitefully use you. Any more to say about that one? And forgiving abuse?
Valerie: This is applicable if someone has insulted you or done it with some sort of microaggression. I think when we talk about abuse and atrocity, these are issues that imperil your own salvation.
Scriptural Guidance On Dealing With Offenders
Valerie: For example, not to fight scripture with scripture, but another scripture from Matthew, Jesus Christ talking. About forgiving abuse not reconciliation.. “Moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, and then won’t change his ways, tell it to the church. And if he neglects to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.” Remember that Jews didn’t have dealings with heathens and publicans.
This means to put distance between you and the abusive person. Then here’s the one from Mark, which is one of my favorites. “Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off, or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell. It is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell. “
“And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off. For he that is thy standard by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter halt into life than having two feet to be cast into hell. Therefore, let every man stand or fall by himself, not for another, not trusting another. If thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee, to show thee light, becomes a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.”
“It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother.”
Valerie: This is Christ, our Savior, speaking very plainly here. He doesn’t want you to travel the road to hell. And if that means cutting off thy hand, or cutting off thy foot, or plucking out thy eye, which seems extreme and painful, I don’t think that we’re really being a disciple of Christ.
Anne: This leads perfectly into the classic gaslighting or manipulation technique. When people confront abusers about their abuse. And they don’t want to take accountability, be honest, humble, or submit to God’s will. They begin to say things like, well, if you just loved me. Don’t you love me? You would be patient if you loved me. And you would wait while I got help. And I’m going to go to therapy. It’s just this grooming phase where they act repentant or like they love you.
They’re saying, if you don’t allow me this, because if you don’t tolerate this while I “get better” or while I work on it. Then you’re not being Christlike, because you don’t have unconditional love. And you’re not forgiving abuse. I think the church misapplies the unconditional love idea in general. Can you talk about that?
Valerie: Oh, that’s absolutely right. Yeah, I think we’ve all heard that phrase unconditional love. But you know what? It doesn’t appear in the scriptures at all. And we know that Christian theologian Russell M. Nelson has said that divine love can be called perfect. It is infinite, enduring and universal, it can not correctly be characterized as unconditional. That’s because God loves all his sons and daughters and wants them to gain salvation and eternal life and live with him forever.
God’s Conditional Love
Valerie: Absolutely, so in that sense, God’s love is universal, alright? However, it’s also true that if you’re headed off on the path to hell, God is there is also true. He’s not going to be happy about that and will not shower blessings upon you. He will withdraw his spirit, and he may even send you chastening punishments. But that’s actually love, isn’t it? Because God doesn’t actually want you to end up in hell. So he’s going to try to show you that this is a terrible, terrible path to be on.
So, God’s love is universal. But if we’re talking about love in terms of loving favor and presence, God’s love is definitely conditional, right? Absolutely conditional. And I think that means we should emulate that. Which is, if your abuser says you need to stay with me while I’m going through this treatment program. You could say, no that wouldn’t be helpful to you. Because you would be tempted to abuse me. So why don’t I remove myself from the situation?
You go through the rehab program, bring forth fruits of repentance, and I’ll be praying for you the whole time. And then sincerely mean it. Sincerely pray and fast for them. But you’re not doing anything loving. When you allow your abuser access to you, so that you can be abused again. That is not a loving thing to do to this person, who is clearly marching towards hell and not heaven.
Anne: I want to say, you don’t have to set boundaries from a place of love. If you’re like, I don’t feel love for them, so I guess I can’t hold this boundary. You can do things from a safety standpoint, this is the truth about forgiving abuse.
Setting Boundaries For Safety
Anne: Don’t let someone manipulate you into thinking the only way to set a boundary or take a step towards safety. Is if you feel compassion toward your abuser. You don’t have to feel compassion, love, or anything to set a boundary. I’ve said this in another episode. If you witnessed a crime of a car hijacking, no one on the street next to you would say, oh, don’t call the police yet. Do you feel love for that carjacker? Are you doing this from a place of compassion?
Because unless you call the police from a place of compassion and love, you shouldn’t call the police. No, it’s okay. You can just set the boundary.
Valerie: And remember that God teaches us in a sense what love is like. Which is that when there is love, and that is accompanied by trust and respect, and all those wonderful things that should be part of love. Then that feels like you want to hug the other person. You want to love the other person, et cetera, et cetera. But remember, that love can also exist in the situation where you are not feeling like you want to be with them, or forgiving abuse.
So let’s not confuse feeling soft, warm, and intimate towards somebody with loving them. For example, if one of my children hurts another child, I will say, look, I love you, but you’ve done something wrong here. And so you will have to change. You will have to do some restitution here. In the moment where I say, look, you’re going to have to repent. There’s going to be a punishment. You’ll have to make restitution. Can I still say I love them? Yes, yes I can.
Forgiving Abuse: Tough Love & God’s Example
Valerie: But let’s not confuse feeling warm and soft towards someone with loving them. Because we can do tough love. God does tough love to his children all the time.
Anne: When the abuser uses that love word to gaslight or manipulate, they’re using it to say, you have to love me in the way I want to be loved. You have to overlook my bad behavior and tolerate my abuse. If you’re doing something else, you must not love me. But victims need to realize that’s just abuse. It’s not, am I being a good Christian? Am I loving him enough? That type of talk is abusive and only meant to manipulate you into tolerating bad behavior.
It’s not meant to actually bring you closer together.
Valerie: That’s absolutely right. And I’m so glad that You have mentioned that.
Anne: I was talking to a victim, and she said I want to see him as God sees him. He is a child of God. And I said, well, read Alma 5, the wicked are seen as children of hell by God. Other places in the scriptures, it talks about don’t cast your pearls before swine, or like a dog to his vomit, or like a sow in the mire. And in my mind, helping her realize that he is wicked. And that this wickedness was going to harm her would get her to safety more quickly.
Valerie: You know, I think that’s a really good point. I would feel no compunction about divorcing a child of God clearly on the path to hell. But I do think there’s a sense in which we must remember their humanity or our own humanity is lost.
The Wicked Are Cast Out
Anne: With those animal references like don’t cast your pearls before swine or like a dog to his vomit or references of someone being a child of hell. Being able to say the fruits of this person’s actions right now are dangerous. And they’re not healthy to me. I’m going to keep myself safe and observe from a super safe distance. In the scriptures, it does not say, and they were wicked and so we set their therapy appointments and we made sure that we dressed up and wore lipstick.
It says, and they were wicked and cast out. If someone continues to exhibit the fruits of wickedness, then like that Alma 5 scripture, He commands us to cast them out.
Valerie: That’s brilliant.
Anne: Many women in this situation hope their abuser can see the light. What are the types of things they need to look for to see if the abuser truly has repented if he’s truly changed?
Valerie: Yeah, the abuser must fully complete all the steps of repentance sincerely and bring forth fruit meet for repentance. And some crimes may be so awful that full completion of these requirements probably cannot even occur in this life. So how would you recognize sincere repentance? First of all, a recognition that you’ve abused. I think many abusers are simply unable to even recognize that they committed any sin or crime, and will blame their victims for whatever abuse happened.
I think abuse is almost predicated on someone lacking any sense of personal responsibility at all. So absolutely a recognition that one has abused. Secondly, sincere remorse, great suffering always accompanies a recognition that you have abused someone. But I also know that some abusers can be insincerely remorseful.
Sincere Repentance With Restitution
Valerie: And so that I think is where, you know, uh, being in touch with the spirit helps. If you don’t think that person is sincere, they’re probably not. And it would probably be better for you to assume they’re not sincere. Confession, confessing to civil authorities, confessing to ecclesiastical authorities. If they can’t even do that, then it’s not sincere repentance. Restitution, that’s a big one where abusers will say, just forgive me, I won’t do it anymore.
But you know, a sense of restitution. What kind of restitution would help make up for what you’ve done? Can you help repay the victim for what you’ve taken from them? And it’s possible that restitution cannot be made in this life, you know, for murder and so forth. We cannot make restitution in this life, but the abusers should be searching for a way to make that restitution. And then finally, true change. A repentant abuser will not be slipping back into abuse again.
And if they do, and insist that you forgive them all over again, the abuser has not sincerely gone through the repentance process.
Anne: Or that was just grooming. Where they were putting on a show to groom you. When you talk about confession, I know of many stories where the abuser talks to their clergy and says, hey, I have been abusing my wife. I’ve been gaslighting her. And the clergy will say, oh no, you haven’t. No, that’s not abuse. Or they’ll say I’ve been using pornography, and that’s abuse to my wife. And they’ll be like, no, you’re not.
Forgiving Abuse: Bystanders Enabling Abusers
Anne: Or I’m a addict. I’ve been using it a lot and lying about it. No, you’re not an addict. So obviously that is not going to help the abuser. Usually they only tell a partial truth. When there’s one rat, there’s 50. And so if clergy takes that partial truth and is like, you’re a good guy. What are you talking about? Instead of saying, whoa, this is serious. We need to see the whole iceberg here. We need to ferret out all the lies he’s told.
Anne: Can you talk about why bystanders have such a difficult time supporting victims and in many cases end up accidentally enabling the abuser?
Valerie: Again, in all the cases you’ve just mentioned, I believe the ecclesiastical authority was male. I think men are prone to give other men the benefit of the doubt, rather than other women. I do know one thing, that those things are heinous in the sight of God. That God will judge those ecclesiastical authorities with clarity and exquisite precision. So I think we need to believe in God’s justice for some of them.
There was a terrible old legacy in my own church. which suggested that victims of rape needed to repent themselves. Because they were no longer chaste. And fortunately, my church has changed on this and given out very plain instruction that victims of sexual abuse are innocent. And that no one can take their chastity and innocence from them, that they hold it still. So I think that was an important change.
Ecclesiastical Authorities & Abuse
Valerie: I’m just aghast to hear what you said. Because as an ecclesiastical authority, I certainly would want to talk to the person who had been abused to figure out what I was dealing with here. Predators are skillful at gaslighting, not only their victims, but also gaslighting authorities.
Anne: You quoted, Christian theologian, Richard G. Scott in your article. And he said, “Remember that predators are skillful at cultivating public appearance of piety to mask their despicable acts. Recognize that it is unlikely the perpetrator will confess his depraved acts. Painstakingly assure that every individual suffering from abuse receives appropriate help.” We have heard so many stories of the woman going in. She talks about the abuse, the clergy says, Oh, that’s awful.
That’s terrible. I’ll help you. Let me call him in. So he calls him into the office. And then after he hears “his side of the story,” not realizing it’s all lies and manipulation is like, oh, I see what’s happening now. She’s controlling. She’s not doing what she’s supposed to do. It’s her problem. I get it now. You’re not an abuser. And so even though so many churches have policies that say we do not tolerate abuse because clergy are not educated about abuse.
They’re not sure what to look for, they can’t recognize that that type of gaslighting to the clergy is not only abusive to the clergy, but also just piling on the abuse to the victim. In that thinking, okay, there’s two sides of the story, and the truth must be somewhere in the middle. They need to realize that a victim tells the truth.
Training Clergy On Cognitive Biases
Anne: And the abuser manipulates and lies. So the truth isn’t somewhere in the middle. There’s an absolute truth here, and they need to figure out what that is. Rather than believing a manipulator and liar.
Valerie: I’m so glad you said that, because I believe many people make that mistake. They hear that one person says A, one person says C, so the truth is B. That’s not it. In abusive situations, the truth is probably either A or C. And that we do a disservice. to victims in abuse situations when we assume there’s some sort of middle ground of truth when dealing with abuse. That is so important. And I hope churches are training their clergy in these kinds of cognitive biases.
Being male, believing that truth will be the middle ground between two counts. Unless they are, one of the most important things that can be done, and this certainly would be revolutionary in my own church, is that women need to sit in on these discussions also. The male perspective needs to be balanced by the female perspective, then I think it needs balancing in the case where we decide where truth lies.
Anne: Absolutely, I always recommend that women report their husband’s abuse to clergy, either psychological, emotional, or their exploitative materials use. They take another woman with them who understands abuse into that meeting, that they do not go in alone. We’ve seen so many times that clergy will further abuse that victim. By saying, oh, well, are you having sex with them or are you making dinner or what are you doing?
Take another woman with them to ensure she is not further harmed in that interaction. Which is happening all over the place in every denomination and religion.
Forgiving Abuse: The Prodigal Son Misapplied
Anne: We have women from every faith paradigm here, and it’s happening everywhere. So the last Christian principle misapplied here, in the context of abuse, is this prodigal son concept. Where, if you don’t forgive, meaning reconcile, they’re not talking about actual forgiveness here or forgiving abuse.
They’re saying, if you don’t reconcile, if you don’t make sure you kill the fatted calf and welcome this guy home and give him hugs, the greater sin lies with you. Can you talk about why this principle is misapplied, and when it’s misapplied, it continues to put victims in harm’s way?
Valerie: Oh, that’s great. Let’s look at the parable itself. Now, we can’t tell from the scriptures whether the prodigal son was abusing others or simply living some sort of riotous life. Nevertheless, while the son lived this riotous existence, the father in the parable didn’t chase his son. He didn’t offer to have him live at home and be provided for and enabled while he continued this type of life.
Instead, the father waited in silence. We’re not told how long he had to wait. Maybe he had to wait for years. We are not told that there was even any contact between the father and the son during this time. But when the son turned around, when he repented of his foolishness. When he did retrace his steps back home, wanting only to be a servant and not to claim back his privileges. When that day came, his father ran out to meet him and embrace him.
The father even held a big party to rejoice over his son’s return. Now, was the prodigal son restored to all his privileges, at least in this life? I don’t think so. I’d venture he probably wasn’t trusted with money anymore.
Wait From A Distance To Observe
Valerie: And he’d spent his inheritance. I don’t think the father carved out a separate inheritance for him. So even after sincere repentance, there may be some continuing restrictions or limitations. Based on a knowledge of the abuser’s weaknesses. But while the son is doing wrongfully, that love waited silently and at a distance . Not in a state of enabling or overlooking the bad behavior or running after the abusive person.
I think we need to see the parable of the prodigal son for what it’s telling us. You will have to wait at a distance. Not have a full fledged relationship with someone involved in self destruction or other destruction.
Anne: It shows his repentance, because he was willing to give up his “entitlements.” He’s willing to come back as a servant. If an abuser is unwilling to give up his entitlements, he feels entitled perhaps to intimacy. Maybe he feels entitled to lying, or maybe he feels entitled to a hot meal, whatever it is he feels entitled to, that he’s not willing to give up.
Like, I won’t be abusive, but you have to have it with me every Wednesday. Or I’m not going to be abusive, but you need to make sure you lose 10 pounds. Or I’m not going to be abusive, but you need to treat me with respect, which means she won’t maybe ask him questions about where he’s been or what he’s doing. That lack of willingness to give up their entitlements is exemplified by the prodigal son willing to give up those entitlements.
Valerie: Yes. That’s a brilliant point. He’s willing to give up it all, eating the pig’s scraps. He’s willing to be a servant and not a son anymore.
Valerie’s Work On World Peace
Valerie: That’s a form of restitution, isn’t it? To give up one’s entitlement. I think that’s a brilliant way to see it.
Anne: You’ve written whole books on this, and you’ve given speeches. You have this concept that world peace is available if the sexes. If men and women can get along, and if abuse is eradicated.
I hate to ask you to summarize all this body of work that you have done. But could you perhaps just leave us with this idea that peace within homes and peace between husbands and wives is a precursor to world peace? I think it is so interesting. And I’d love to leave our audience with your ideas on this.
Valerie: Oh, you bet, absolutely. In fact, I wrote a book that just came out this year. It’s called The First Political Order, How Sex Shapes Governance and National Security Worldwide. So if you would like the extended version, please pick up that book. But yeah, the first political order in any society is the sexual political order. It is the foundation for all human societies.
Sometimes I ask my students to think of themselves as video game designers. And I say, I’m just going to give you two parameters, go make me a game. One is that within the society there are roughly two equal groups. And number two is that unless these two groups cooperate, there is no second round, everyone dies.
And they say, well, you haven’t told us enough. They say, are these two groups like equals, or is one superior or one inferior? Who does the decision-making for the whole group? Is it one of the groups or both groups? How are conflicts resolved? By violence or compromise?
Forgiving Abuse: Government Grant About Evidence
Valerie: And who’s got access to the valuable resources? Is it basically one of the groups, or is it both of the groups? And I say, yep, that’s exactly right. Those are all political questions. And how any society answers those questions, in a sense, establishes the first political order. And that first political order will shape everything else that arises within that society. A first political order based on the subordination of women will be unstable, violent, corrupt, exploitative, and autocratic.
Why? Because it’s built on a first political order at the level of every household in society. That’s domestic instability, domestic violence, domestic terror, domestic corruption, domestic exploitation, and domestic autocracy. It couldn’t be any other way. All right, so what your first political order is will determine what your society looks like in terms of violence and governance, and so forth.
And there’ll be many other spillover effects. If you’ve created gender tasks so that perhaps women are responsible for safeguarding people’s health within the family, then if you subordinate women. You’re going to undercut the health of women, not only children, but also men. If you’ve gendered a task where women are responsible for making sure there’s food on the table for everybody each day. When you disempower women, that’s going to lead to food insecurity.
So there are many different ramifications of a subordinative first political order. We received a four year, 1. 3 million grant from the U.S. Department of Defense in 2014. To look and see if there was empirical evidence what we were saying was true. That the subordination of women at household level led to worse nation state outcomes. In terms of violence, governance, terrorism, food insecurity, and economic performance, and you name it.
Results Of Our Study
Valerie: And so we did. It was a Herculean task, but we were able to examine over 160 different outcome variables on nation states. We were able to show that the subordination of women, even when controlling for other alternative hypotheses, was critically determinative in how poorly a nation would be on these outcomes.
And so I think it’s true, is that what you do to your women, you do to your nation. And if you curse your women, you’re also choosing to curse your nation. This is fully in line with what I understand about God’s plan, which if God’s plan was an equal partnership between men and women and an equal loving and respectful partnership.
Then to the degree that we warp that and pervert that and turn it into a subordinative hierarchy, we’ve undercut the basis of all God’s blessings. Including blessings such as peace and plenty. The Baha’i faith actually has a beautiful metaphor. They liken humankind to a bird with two wings, and they say the male wing has been strong, but the female wing has been injured and is weak.
And therefore, the bird cannot fly. So we must strengthen and heal the female wing so that the bird can soar into the heavens. And I think that’s beautiful and encapsulates everything we’re saying. Which is that abusive of households will not prosper, and that subordination of women never leads to good outcomes. Not only for women, but also for children, and also for men and whole societies. There can’t be any peace on earth until there’s peace between men and women.
Starting In Our Own Homes To Make The World Better
Anne: I love that because I’ve been saying for years, if you want to do your part, you need to start in your own home and set boundaries around the abusive behavior in your own home. And that will make the world a better place.
And also abuse and forgiving abuse is bigger than you. Societal scripting set up this situation, and religious scripting misapplied. And because of that, you’re up against a lot of misinformation and traditions that are not good for you. And if you want to make the world a better place, start with your own home.
Valerie: My pleasure. And thank you for all the good work that you’re doing.
What Is A Sex Addict? What You Need To Know
Nov 22, 2022
What is a sex addict called? Just ask two wives who share their what label they gave their husband when he confessed his sex addiction. Secret pornography use and other forms of intimate betrayal have been labeled “sex addiction” by therapists and clergy for years. While it is absolutely addictive, calling him an addict doesn’t solve the problem. Kate and Anne Blythe, M.Ed. talk about their husband’s addiction and what they prefer to call it.
Too often, intimate betrayal, including pornography use, is only considered a sexual addiction issue. The problem here is that while these behaviors are addictive, abuse is the real issue.
Some victims think calling their husband a sex addict will motivate him to get help. But treatment usually makes things worse for his wife. The abuser’s victims are largely ignored and/or blamed for the behavior of the addict. By correctly labeling his behaviors as abusive, women can get the help theyneed to protect themselves from abuse.
Anne: I have my friend Kate on with me today. We are just hanging out, chatting. About what is a sex addict called? Like what are you going to call your addict husband? If he’s got an addiction, are you going to say sex addict or will you call it something else? We are talking about that. So to put words in Kate’s mouth quickly, we both agree that pornography is addictive. We both agree that its use is abuse.
And then also the behaviors around it, the gaslighting, the lying, the manipulation. All those types of behaviors around it constitute emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and sexual coercion. So we both agree on that point. I prefer to use the word abusive. When we were talking before, Kate said, “No, I actually like the word addiction.” So Kate, can you talk about why you like using the word addiction?
Kate: I actually like both. I know there are some people out there who are like, maybe it’s not an addiction, maybe it’s a compulsion. So we’ll just get rid of the word addiction and call it all abuse. It does fit the definition of addiction. The research on the brain shows it is an addiction. I like to call it addiction simply because if you call it a compulsion, like some people have been doing, well, anything could be compulsive.
Did he eat a cake? Is he compulsive with a cake? Does he bite his nails compulsively? When you say, “Oh, my husband has a compulsive issue.” It just doesn’t hold as much seriousness as addiction does.
The Seriousness Of Addiction
Kate: It’s as if somebody who had cancer, were to say, “I have an illness.” Some people might be like, “Oh, is it a serious illness?” Other people might be like, “Oh, maybe it’s just a common cold.” The word addiction has more seriousness than compulsion. As far as either abuse or addiction, I just use both because they feed off each other so much.
I don’t think you can have sex addiction without some type of abuse. I don’t know about other addictions. I’ve heard from other people who said their husbands were maybe alcoholics, weren’t sex addicts, and weren’t abusive. I even did a poll once. Ninety-nine percent of betrayed wives experienced some type of abuse from their husbands.
Anne: I think the pornography use in and of itself is abuse. It’s abusive for trust, it’s abuse of your marriage contract and vows. To be faithful, for example, and not cheat on me. And I consider pornography use to be cheating, and so therefore it’s an abuse of those vows.
The reason I’ve dropped the word “addiction” is not because I don’t think it’s addictive. I absolutely think it’s addictive. The reason why I prefer to use the word abuse in all contexts is because addiction, to me, says this is what he is experiencing. I’m not so concerned about what he is experiencing. I am more concerned about what the victim is experiencing.
There’s the cause, and then there’s the effect. The effect to her, what she feels, and the way she experiences all his behaviors is always abuse. There’s no other word for it. So that’s why I prefer to say this is abuse, because of its effect on the victim of this scenario.
The Misconception Of Addiction
Anne: Most of the time, I’ve dropped the word addiction completely, and I always call it abuse. I don’t want people to get the wrong impression that I don’t think it’s addictive, because I do. I just think the word abuse really gets to the heart of what the wife is going through, rather than focusing on him and what he’s going through. For me, anytime someone says the word “addiction”, there’s this, oh, poor him, he’s got an addiction.
If someone tells the story, “This guy stole this car, he rammed into this stuff, he went around and he did all these bad things!” People would be horrified. Oh, wow, what a jerk or something. But if you say, “They got addicted to cocaine when they were young. Then they stole a car, they ran over a bunch of people.”
You say the same exact stuff, and they’re like, “He was addicted to cocaine.” I just don’t want there to be any pity for the addict. because they feed off of that and use that to victim blame and groom other people. So I prefer not to use the word addict to help keep victims safe. This is abuse, and I don’t care if you’re an addict or not. Who am I to say how you are experiencing this? What I’m concerned about is how your behaviors affect me.
Kate: Oh, I love that. I love you said that. I use the word addiction mostly when I interact with other women. There are times to use the word addiction, but yes, the main focus is what is happening to you is abuse. It’s not addiction that’s happening to you, it’s abuse.
Seeking Safety Over Marriage
Anne: Yeah, if a woman describes to me what is happening to her. And then she asks, Is my husband a sex addict? I’d be like, I don’t know. whether he’s an addict or not, but what I know is these behaviors you’ve just described are abuse. And we have thousands of women in our community. And my concern is that the words we use determine their next steps. The word addiction is dangerous because the first thing that comes to mind is 12 step recovery program.
She’s always been resisting this type of abuse. And she feels like a recovery program keeping her family together will be the safer route. She is doing what she’s supposed to do. She’s trying to get help. If she hears the word abuse, rather than try and keep her “marriage safe.” She’s going to think I need to be safe. How can I get myself to safety?
Kate: Completely different.
Anne: I would say it’s the victim’s first attempt to get to safety. She is trying to see if he goes to a 12-step program, or if he does this or that, will that make her safer? Meaning, will that change him into a safe person? She hopes through her attempts for safety, he will turn from being an unsafe person to being a safe person.
Technically speaking, if he did that, it would solve her safety problem. The unfortunate thing is, he just starts grooming more or lying more. It actually creates less safety. And she doesn’t know that.
Kate: If you think about it, you can even say, “Yes, your husband is being abusive.”
The Problem With The Addiction Model
Kate: They’re trying to be proactive about their lives, so they’re going to go online, they’re going to search things like, my husband needs help. Where’s the help?” There will be more help in the sex addiction field.
Anne: For their husband?
Kate: Yes.
Anne: Because everyone uses the addiction model. Let’s talk about why it’s scary. How would you describe it?
Kate: I’ll start at the beginning. First off, when people think of addiction, they think, “Oh, he can’t help it.” That is actually not accurate. There were even people back before AA started who believed they couldn’t help it. Yes, they have a brain disease in some aspects. You can verify that with brain scans, but it is a self-inflicted disease.
If a smoker smokes 12 packs a day and got lung cancer, would that smoker be like, “I can’t stop smoking. The cancer is making me do it. I can’t go and get treatment because the cancer is not letting me.” No, everyone would be like, that’s insane. So why is it that we do that when it comes to addiction?
“They can’t because they got a disease. They can’t help it.” So that is like the foundation of many of the whole addiction world; especially sex addiction. No, no, no, they still have agency. They still have choice. It is a self-inflicted disease. Their choices caused it, not the reverse. The sex addiction world hijacks it and makes it even more ridiculous.
Anne: With the sex addiction model, they don’t really know what to do with the victim. They say they use the trauma model, but then they won’t admit where the trauma is coming from. They refuse to say she’s traumatized by abuse.
Victim Desensitization In Therapy
Kate: Yo, it’s awful. It is awful. You say the word abuse in the sex addiction industry, and they’re like, [gasp!] “How dare you say that! You’re shaming the addict!” What? I’m literally stating a behavior they’re doing. You guys are making it worse. The whole industry is addict-centric.
Anne: Yes, it is not victim-centric.
Kate: It is not at all. Even if somebody says they’re a betrayal trauma therapist, if they’re coming from the sex addiction industry, it means they’re still in the addiction industry, still addict-centric. It’s like, “We’re going to help you handle your trauma so you can help your husband… or so you’re not shaming your husband… or so you’re not triggering your husband so he can get into recovery.” That’s not what it should be at all.
Anne: Or, so your husband’s abusive behaviors aren’t triggery to you. That’s the thing I see the most. For example, the husband is still abusive, and the sex addiction professional. Not somebody at our organization, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, but a so-called “betrayal trauma expert” will be like, “You’re just still being traumatized from the past when he used to use pornography. Now he’s not using it anymore, so I don’t know why when he says these things to you, it’s upsetting.
You’re just being triggered, so let’s work on your triggers.” They’re not recognizing he’s gaslighting her, he’s manipulating her, still emotionally and psychologically abusing her. And she’s still a victim of sexual coercion. You should not help a victim become desensitized to abuse. It feels like that is what the sex addiction industry is trying to do in their treatment of victims. desensitize you to this abuse.
The Danger Of Mislabeling Abuse
Anne: “Let’s help you be tolerant of the abuse, because otherwise your marriage will fall apart. You want to keep your marriage, right?” Instead of saying, “You’re a victim of abuse. He is an abuser.” The worst case scenario is happening right now. The worst case scenario isn’t divorce, let’s get you to safety. They refuse to go there.
Kate: They refuse. I can’t even count how many friends I’ve had who have gone to very popular, and you know who I’m talking about. Very popular betrayal trauma companies, whatever organizations, and they’ve had therapists.
Anne: That aren’t us. Let’s say that.
Kate: She had just spent long months trying to convince her husband it’s abuse, and he finally believes it. Then you have a therapist saying, in front of the husband, “Your husband’s not abusing you. No, what your husband did to you is not abuse.”
What’s going to happen? I guarantee the husband will be more abusive. He’s going to be more entitled. He’d be like, “Oh, I’m not abusive. A therapist said so!” It is so dangerous and so damaging to do that.
Anne: Two of the things the pornography addiction recovery world asks of a spouse of an addict. Or a victim of abuse would be number one, to not shame him, and number two, connect with him. I think it’s all they’ve got. They can’t think of anything else to say.
Shame & Its Misinterpretation
Anne: They have to pretend like it’s not that big of a deal, so that she’ll stay. Because they’re worried about her leaving. They don’t want his support system leaving him, because it could be bad for him. But they never stopped to think, is it good for her? In the pornography addiction recovery world, the main concern of these professionals is him. Their main concern is not her. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our main concern is her. Is she safe? Is she okay? Does she have her needs met?
Kate and I, again, I’ll put words in your mouth here, but we don’t actually think that shame is even a thing. Everybody feels shame. Some people feel shame, and they eat ice cream. And some people feel shame, and they go for a run. Some people feel shame, and they start crying. Shame is not the cause of someone looking at pornography.
Kate: It does not. It does not cause it. You have men who feel no shame for watching it. They did not grow up in religious culture. They did not grow up with any outside source saying it is bad. And yet they’re still having issues with it.
Anne: Exactly, they don’t feel shame, but they use shame to activate your shame to make you feel bad or guilty to manipulate you. The problem isn’t their overwhelming shame, it’s their lack of shame. Of course, to other people, they have to act like they have shame; otherwise, they would seem like monsters. There are also men who don’t look at pornography when they feel shame.
Healthy Shame
Anne: Shame is a normal human emotion that should not be avoided at all costs or that we should be striving to reduce. It’s something that happens that we need to be healthy about. A healthy person deals with their shame in healthy ways. An unhealthy person deals with their shame in unhealthy ways, but it’s not the cause of anybody’s behavior.
Yes, I understand where people have become more obsessed about the whole shame thing. If you talk about the actual dictionary definition of shame, it is not always bad. Brene Brown’s definition, shame is not good. But it can be healthy.
Anne: To put this in perspective, Brene Brown is trying to help people deal with their own shame. She’s not trying to help people deal with other people’s shame. But some people are actually bad people.
Kate: Yes.
Anne: If somebody skis every Saturday, they’re a skier. If someone plays tennis twice a week, they are a tennis player. If someone runs track and does baseball and all kinds of things, they’re an athlete. You are what you choose to do. So if someone is continually lying, they’re a liar. If someone continually uses pornography, they’re a pornography user. The Bible and whatever scriptures you use have a word for this. It is called wicked.
There is nowhere in the scriptures I have ever seen that says, “He was wicked because he felt shame. Then this wicked person stopped being wicked because they said, “You’re not a bad person; you’re not a wicked person, just these things you’re doing are wicked.” No, in the scriptures, it actually says they are a wicked person.
Scriptural Perspective On Wickedness
Anne: They are wicked because they choose evil things over and over again. Part of the accountability, honesty and authenticity is for these men to actually recognize I technically really am a bad person.
Kate: “You can’t say someone’s a bad person! That’s not who they are!”
Anne: Your behavior defines who you are.
Kate: So you’re saying Alfred Kinsey is not a bad person? I’m pretty sure we can call him a bad person. I can call him a bad, disgusting person because he was. It doesn’t mean they were always bad, and that doesn’t mean they can’t change. But right now, yeah, what they did, they are a bad person. Like we can’t call them bad, it actually makes it worse and fuels the problem.
Anne: Listen to the scripture: “I say unto you, nay, except you make our creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose he is a liar from the beginning. You cannot suppose such can have a place in the kingdom of heaven, but they shall be cast out for they are children of the kingdom of the devil.” There are other scriptures that say he is a child of hell. That probably wouldn’t be the wisest thing to say, but technically speaking, their choices have created a wicked character.
They literally are a wicked person. It never says anywhere in the scriptures, “They were wicked so we did not shame them. We told them, no, you’re not wicked you’re not bad, You’re good. And then they stopped being wicked.”
Then the advice, our loving Heavenly Father cast them out. In the scriptures, you will find it. It is all over the place.
Adults vs. Children In Accountability
Kate: I will add, just in case, because I’m guessing some people might listen to this and be like, “Wait a minute, but I grew up thinking I was a bad kid and it didn’t help me.” We’re not talking about children. We are talking about grown men, grown people who know better.
Anne: We’re talking about people who genuinely are making very sad decisions and hurting people. Children are just trying to figure stuff out. Children aren’t wicked.
Kate: Children are not bad. Whereas, an adult with a developed brain who knows better, he’s choosing to. You can always tell when they know better, because do they do this in front of their boss? Friends? Do they mistreat you like this in front of somebody else? If the answer is no, he knows what he’s doing. Unless he has some anger issue where he’s angry, literally to everyone, then maybe he really does legit have some disorder.
I would also say it’s not because of his childhood either. I used to even believe this, but the research actually does not show that. The research shows that when someone’s abusive, it’s because of entitlements, misogyny, that there are choices, not because of their childhood.
Anne: We all know people who have had a hard childhood, who are healthy adults. The response is, “I know someone who went through a similar experience to yours, and they’re not abusive to their wife.”
Kate: Exactly, thankfully, the anti-abuse industry is starting to recognize this. They’re starting to teach us that. He’s not an addict, because he drank too much, or because he had childhood trauma; that’s not why he’s abusive. It is because of entitlements and misogyny.
If He’s Lying To You, It Hurts You
Anne: Yeah. Well, no matter what you call it. Those behaviors are abusive to you. And so that’s why I like calling it abuse. Listeners, what do you think? Comment on this podcast transcript below. Let me know what you think.
Kate. You’re awesome. Thanks for hanging out today.
What Happens When Churches Don’t Believe Abuse Victims? – Janice’s Story
Nov 15, 2022
What happens when churches don’t believe abuse victims? Unfortunately, nothing good for the victim. When a so-called representative of Christ supports essentially evil over a faithful woman it is shocking to women. When churches don’t believe abuse victims, the ensuing secondary trauma runs deep. Janice shares her story of what happened when the church didn’t believe her.
Sometimes, church leaders and congregants are well-meaning, but simply don’t know how to support abuse and betrayal victims. In this case, it’s best for clergy to direct victims to experts. Who can give them knowledgeable guidance and help to get to safety. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.
Clergy can provide spiritual support. This does not mean counseling victims to stay with their abusers. It means offering unconditional love and resources to the victim and her children. It means clergy should validate the victim’s pain and assure her that she is believed.
When Churches Give Victims Harmful Counsel
In the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, those belonging to faith communities when churches don’t believe abuse victims. Women have shared harmful counsel, including:
Just have more sex with your abusive husband
Submit to sex however and whenever he wants you to do it
Divorce is always the devil’s plan; if you decide to divorce your abuser, you are listening to Satan
The church will abandon you if you choose to leave your abuser
If he abuses you, it is because his needs are not met, so be a better “helpmeet”
He uses pornography because you, the victim, are not sexual enough
He lies to you because you are an angry woman
Forgive and forget
Trust him again, right away, in order to save your marriage
There are two sides to every story – be charitable and see your part in this
Harmful and downright abusive “counsel” can send victims into a downward spiral. Many victims can become so traumatized by clergy that they face a faith crisis and may feel unable to participate in organized religion at all.
If Your Church Has Harmed You, Practice Self-Compassion
If you are or once were a member of a faith community, now facing a faith crisis, or have distanced yourself from church. You may feel ashamed, guilty, and isolated. Know that the secondary trauma you experienced because of ignorant, harmful and/or abusive clergy is not your fault. You trusted your church leaders, and they should have been there for you. But when churches don’t believe abuse victims, it is crushing.
Please practice self-care, seek support, and douse yourself in compassion. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is here for you. Join today and begin your journey to healing.
Transcript: What Happens When Churches Don’t Believe Abuse Victims?
Anne: I have a victim we’re going to call Janice on today’s episode, sharing her story. We’ll talk about when churches don’t believe abuse victims. She loves traveling and spending time with her family, especially her 10 grandchildren. Welcome, Janice.
Janice: Thank you, Anne. I appreciate it.
Anne: So, let’s start with your story.
Janice: I was a victim of domestic abuse for 23 years, but I didn’t recognize it until about the 23rd year. All those years, while in that marriage, we would contact counselors, pastors, usually we’d go to a pastor first. And they would treat it like a marital problem. And most of the time, the attempts to get help made things worse.
So, as it got worse over time, it was getting volatile. It really boggles my mind. That everywhere I turned to get help, whether it be the courts, law enforcement or counselors. Nobody knew how to deal with our situation. I came through a church where the pastor didn’t know what to do. He thought I should just get out of the marriage. And when he told me that, I thought, well, this man doesn’t know Jesus. So I left and went to a church that believed more like I did.
And they told me, well, you need to submit, as long as he’s not asking you to sin. And the more I submitted, obeyed, or bowed down to him, the more things would get worse. So seeing all these things just started a fire in me. I needed to do something, because I believe our God is a healer.
Understanding Trauma & Healing
Janice: It’s so funny when I look back on it, I didn’t know anything about trauma. I just know that the process I came through brought amazing healing in my life. And then when I started studying brain science in the last three or four years. I realized God knows the brain science. And when he tells us to meditate on his word, which is what I did, it actually reaches those traumatized parts of the brain.
Anne: I went through a similar experience where I tried to get help. It felt like I was screaming and yelling, like help me help me, and I was facing it head on. No one ever told me it was abuse. So all the people I went to for help from therapists and clergy, when churches don’t believe abuse victims, didn’t help, and you said the same thing. Why do you think women who are in emotionally and psychologically abusive relationships don’t know that they are?
Janice: It is so insidious, it sneaks up on us. It’s like the frog in boiling water analogy. The first lesson I learned in my relationship with my ex was that he had asked me a question. And I answered it in a way he didn’t like. He slammed on brakes, threw me out of the car and called me names. And then a day or two later, he calls back and apologizes. He doesn’t act angry again for a long time. So I just filed that away. Well, I’ll never do that again.
Janice: That was when I probably was 14 years old when I met him. And then by the time I’m 38 years old when I’m getting out, I have been brainwashed. There are about 5,000 things I’m not doing anymore.
The Cult-Like Dynamics Of Abusive Relationships
Janice: So the way I’m thinking has changed. Getting into these kinds of relationships is almost like getting in and out of a cult. It’s this gradual process that changes the way we think. It’s very hurtful to think that somebody would ever choose to treat us that way. And we know that is not love. First Corinthians 13, love is patient and kind, and it doesn’t insist on its own way. It’s not easily provoked. All the things that abuse is, right?
So for me, when I finally had to admit it was abusive, that was really painful. Because I loved him and was faithful and stood up for him, protected him. And even covered up his mess for so many years. Realizing that he had chosen to do nothing but hurt and use me. So that’s a really painful conclusion. So coming to admit that is pretty hard. It’s the first step to healing, but it is the hardest part of the healing process in my mind.
Anne: You know, many therapists don’t understand abuse. They don’t like the word victim. And when churches don’t believe abuse victims. They’re like, we don’t want to say the word victim because we don’t want people to feel powerless. And I agree. I don’t want anyone to feel powerless, especially a victim, but I love the word victim.
And the reason why I love it was because it meant it wasn’t me. It meant someone was doing something that I had no control over. And what I needed to do was get to safety, but that I was an actual victim. You know, I hadn’t done anything wrong.
When Churches Don’t Believe Abuse Victims; Empowerment & Moving Forward
Anne: And for me, when I finally embraced that word, it was so empowering. Now I tend to like the word shero more. Because once I recognized I had to be my own hero. And so do women in this situation. But I like the word victim, and I use it interchangeably with survivor and shero. It’s interesting how different women feel about the different terms.
Janice: We don’t want to stay victims, but we are victimized. Just like you said, it wasn’t our choice. It wasn’t our fault. And by its very meaning, that’s what the victim is about. That it wasn’t our fault. And it was not something that we could control.
Anne: Some of us are still victims. For me, as an example, I have an ex husband who is literally still abusive to me. I don’t think I’m in victim mode. But I am literally technically still a victim. I have moved into this empowered place where I’m separated from the harm. So even though he’s still abusive and I’m technically still a victim, it doesn’t feel like that anymore.
There are some moments where I just feel like, is this still happening? Is he still lying, gaslighting, and manipulating? But overall, my life has so much peace in it now. Women can move into their power, but still technically be victimized continually.
Janice: Oh, absolutely. You’re still being victimized, when churches don’t believe abuse victims. And we know in these situations that can go on for a long time after the separation and getting safe. They use the children, courts, anything they can to continue to make us miserable.
The Role Of The Church In Abuse
Anne: You mentioned your pastor said you need to get a divorce, and you thought to yourself, this man doesn’t know Jesus. I hear that a lot, actually. Many women hear my podcast or learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And they think, Oh, that Anne, she just doesn’t know Jesus. Can you talk about why many Christians get stuck in that trap? When churches don’t believe abuse victims.
Janice: Absolutely. For me, I had actually grown up in a pretty liberal church. And then after I became a Christian, I moved to one that actually had some strict teaching on men’s and women’s roles. And so that’s what I got when I was in high school. That submission was taught like obedience.
And then, of course, all the years I became a homeschool mom. I listened to things like Focus on the Family, where they talk about how your children will be better off if you stay married. That divorce is so painful and hurtful to children. And my own parents had divorced, so I did not believe in divorce. It got to the point that my daughter, who was 12 years old at the time, said, Mom, why don’t you just get out? And I said, God hates divorce.
And she said, but he’s going to hate it much more when my mom is dead. She had more wisdom than me. The thing is when you look at that passage, it was actually meant to protect women. It wasn’t meant to be a burden or oppression.
Realizing The Need For Change
Janice: And so I had about a million things in my head that I had come to believe, and some of them were put there by my husband. He would say things like, you need to submit, I’m the head of this house. He would use scripture to keep me under control. We come to that point for many reasons. But a lot of it was me and the things I listened to and the things I believed.
Anne: How did you realize that submitting to abuse.was not what Jesus wanted? Especially when churches don’t believe abuse victims.
Janice: I don’t even know if I came to that recognition until after I got out. I just had to get out to save my life, honestly.
Before I got out, this is like 1995. My ex was a physician, so we paid $3, 000 and went to Omaha, Nebraska, and worked with a psychologist one on one for a week. And for the first time in my life, I saw something that actually spoke to what I was experiencing. They pulled out and showed me a power and control wheel. And when I saw that I had been telling myself, no, this is not abuse. He doesn’t mean it. He just flips out and he can’t control it.
It’s like a little nervous breakdown. I was making excuses for him. And when I saw that power and control wheel, it’s basically a definition. And all the tactics used in domestic violence. That is what they called it back then. They’re changing the terminology these days to coercive control. But I realized that he had used everything on that power and control wheel against me, and 90% of that is not physical abuse, not physical violence.
Learning About Abuse The Hard Way
Janice: Before that, I interpreted abuse as only physical. I had had some incidents, but they were few and far between. We could go years with no physical abuse. But then when they did happen, I would get shoved or blocked in a room. And there at the end, there was actually a strangulation attempt, and I got my head pounded into a steering wheel multiple times. As it’s progressive, it did build up and was worse towards the end than in the beginning.
Anne: Mm hmm, I had very little physical incidents until the last one where he was actually arrested. He sprained my fingers. So I still, even after that, and even after he was arrested, didn’t think he was abusive until I became educated about abuse. And then it was like, check, check, check, check. And I think that’s what women need. They need education about abuse to recognize it.
Janice: Their church is not understanding. Just like victims, we don’t understand the dynamics, so how can we expect them to understand it?
Anne: Yeah, I think church is an especially ripe place for abusers. Because if you look like a God fearing man and seem sincere, you’re attending church and doing service. They just can’t wrap their head around this person intentionally manipulates me and grooms me. So if he says, no, that’s not what happened, this is what happened. They’re not skeptical about what an upstanding member of their church would say.
It’s like church attendance, and being able to quote scripture and say a prayer is automatic trust in that community. And it’s unfortunate, because it makes it a ripe place for abusers to thrive. When churches don’t believe abuse victims.
When Churches Don’t Believe Abuse Victims: Physical vs. Emotional Abuse
Janice: Yeah, and you know they know that Jesus talked about wolves among sheep, right? So I think they know that and will actually use the church for their own gain. And when churches don’t believe abuse victims. I mean Paul talks about it in his epistles.
Anne: You and I both have physical abuse, as part of our stories. Some women have a lot of it, and some women have none. So let’s talk about victims of emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and sexual coercion. The result is betrayal trauma for the victim.
Janice: I would much rather he hit me because at least I know he’s going to back off. To me, the emotional abuse can be so much worse than physical, depending on the type of physical abuse.
Anne: Well, because it’s clear if someone punches you in the face. But when someone gaslights you or manipulates you and lies, you feel like you’re going crazy and don’t know what is going on. And I think that’s why it’s worse. If someone’s physically abused, we ask them to schedule an individual session with Coach Renee. So that she can help them get physical services from law enforcement or a physical domestic violence shelter in their area.
But any emotional or psychological abuser can start physically abusing at any time. There are so many stories of men who are psychologically and emotionally abusive only until they murdered their wife. And so I don’t think we should say, okay, if he hasn’t hit you, then you’re “only dealing with emotional abuse” and so you’re physically safe. Because no one is physically abused without being emotionally and psychologically abused.
Janice: Yes, that’s the thing we don’t know.
The Danger Of Leaving An Abuser
Janice: It’s usually when you decide to leave, it becomes far more dangerous. But I have seen situations where there was never any incident of physical abuse. I’ve got a friend whose husband was emotionally abusive, just emotionally abusive for 11 years. She left and went to her parents house. So he stormed in and killed her parents and left her for dead. If you’re living in fear, then there’s always that potential.
Sometimes people think, I’m done, I’ve had it, I’m getting out. And that can actually endanger you, saying to them, I’m leaving.
Anne: And that’s why at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we have our groups. If that fear is there, getting help from your local resources like law enforcement is important. Because you need a team of people to help you escape. I think it is really important to know what all the risks are. Did you feel like you had betrayal trauma?
Janice: Well, I mean, just abuse is a huge betrayal of the bond that we are supposed to have. It is our most intimate relationship, so there’s nothing like that. It’s such a deep wound, but when I was going through it. I had a terrible incident happen one day. And I’m saying, Lord, nobody knows what this feels like. Nobody understands what I’m going through right now. Even when churches don’t believe abuse victims.
And I just felt like the Holy Spirit dropped all over me. And I could feel Jesus saying, I know. I know what betrayal by someone I love is like. I know what it’s like to have somebody I trusted turn on me. He was betrayed. So we have a God who understands.
Pornography As An Abuse Issue
Janice: When we experienced betrayal trauma, people didn’t appreciate us, they see us more as objects and possessions than partners. And so it’s just a really difficult thing to deal with. I haven’t seen a woman yet. Who’s come through this kind of thing that came out with her faith intact fully. I still had a lot of faith, but I also was really questioning God’s goodness. If he’s good, then why is he allowing this to happen to me?
Anne: Especially if you followed the counsel of your church. In my church, you obey the commandments and marry in the temple. That you made these covenants, and that you were chaste before marriage, and that you picked a godly man. You’re like, I did all those things, and none of those things protected me. And then when churches don’t believe abuse victims, it is hard.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we talk repeatedly about pornography as a domestic abuse issue. I take a lot of heat for that. Many people think, she’s gone too far. It’s not abusive.
Janice: I definitely think they go hand in hand, whether somebody wants to define it that way. They go hand in hand, because the heart behind domestic abuse is basically objectifying as possessions. And that is exactly what pornography does. It’s looking at women as objects. I mean, it changes and rewires the brain so that men can have intimacy with women if they look at it enough.
Abusers have mindsets loaded with pride and entitlement, and again, pornography is also an entitlement issue. Like I can look at anything I want to any time. There are no rules for me when it comes to this department.
When Churches Don’t Believe Abuse Victims: A Coercion Issue
Janice: It is definitely the same mindset that you see with everything listed there on that power and control wheel that I talked about.
Anne: Yeah, it’s better to view pornography as an abuse issue because of those reasons, because you’ve got the objectification, the feeling that you don’t have control unless you have control over that type of mindset. That means if you’re in a relationship with an active pornography user. There’s going to be some kind of abuse, at least a consent issue if you’re not aware of his use.
If you think, oh, our relationship is chaste. Because you’re going to church, and he’s not giving you the opportunity to give consent because he’s withholding information, at the very least, that’s a sexual coercion issue.
Janice: Yeah, especially these guys who are addicted to pornography.
Anne: Absolutely, personally I’m so sick of it being an addiction issue, although it’s definitely addictive. But the way that the pornography addiction recovery community, and the way maybe pastors or therapists ask the victims of abuse to interact with their abuser. They’re saying, okay, be supportive of his recovery. He’s going to have relapses.
Well, that’s just another abuse episode. So you’re essentially asking an abuse victim to tolerate abuse. And it’s super dangerous for victims. And it also doesn’t do the abuser any favors. It’s not helping him change at all.
Janice: Yeah, absolutely. There should be zero tolerance for that. Just like there should be zero tolerance for abuse.
Anne: We’ve talked a bit about the church and the trouble the church is having in recognizing abuse, responding to it and not being manipulated by the abuser. And when churches don’t believe abuse victims.
Abusers Manipulating Clergy
Anne: We see so many pastors, bishops and church leaders manipulated and groomed by abusers. So when churches don’t believe abuse victims it is another betrayal.
Janice: Abusers can be charming and charismatic, and they can quote the scripture. That’s the hardest part when you’ve got an abuser who is so convincing. Many times the victim will look so scattered, so stressed that they don’t seem stable. And you’ve got an abuser who is such a conniver and manipulator that he looks stable.
And so it can be confusing. It is a complex issue that you cannot just get a very short training on and then jump into. You want to involve people who know what they’re talking about.
Anne: It’s even hard for victims to recognize the difference between a safe person and someone who says they’re safe. So for example, an addict in “recovery.” It’s very difficult for a victim to decipher those things. And if they’re checking off all the boxes, they’re going to 12 step, they’re going to church, it’s very difficult for people to really ferret out what’s going on.
It’s so interesting to me that we both have a similar story. Where we, and I mentioned this before, but I’ll mention it again. That we tried to go for help, we couldn’t find it. I want to get the word out. Don’t go down the pornography addiction recovery road without being well educated and understanding abuse.
Go down the abuse road, and then your questions will be answered. And you will be safer more quickly. That was my goal.
Identifying Abuse
Anne: After being in that pornography addiction recovery space for years and years. And didn’t get help. And never had these things identified as abuse when churches don’t believer abuse victims. For me, that was a big deal. If a woman is concerned that abuse might be too strong for the “great husband” she has, who just has a couple of problems. Maybe his only problems are he’s got an anger problem and a pornography problem, but a really good guy.
For women who can see these abusive behaviors, but they can’t quite wrap their head around it. This is his character. He has an abusive character. What would you say to them?
Janice: Well, you remember I talked about going out to Omaha, Nebraska to this program. And I told the guy facilitating our week long intensive. I said, he just loses it. He can’t control his anger. He just flips out and he starts breaking things and he goes, well, wait a minute. So when he’s breaking things, who’s stuff does he break? Does he break your stuff only or his stuff and everybody’s stuff?
And I said, well, it’s mostly my stuff. Then he says, does he flip out on people at work like that? And I said, no, not really. He said well, then that tells me that he’s got control over this. He’s choosing this behavior. Many times, the truth is ugly. We have to admit that ugly truth before we can embrace beautiful truths.
When Churches Don’t Believe Abuse Victims: Asserting Control In Select Moments
Janice: And the truth is that he uses kindness to manipulate. It’s not that he’s losing control at all. It’s that he’s using, whether it be anger or kindness, he’s using both to control.
Anne: Yeah, he’s not out of control. He asserts control in those moments. So when churches don’t believe abuse victims, they see never see him abusing his wife. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps victims figure out what is really happening.
Janice: Yeah, and that was a painful eye opener to me. I needed one to finally move towards healing.
Anne: That was a big one for me too. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
Janice: Well, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it.
If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera, You’re Not Alone
Nov 08, 2022
If your husband filmed you with a hidden camera, you could be a victim of trafficking. Dani Pinter is Senior Legal Counsel for the National Center on Exploitation. The National Center on Exploitation was founded in 1962, and is the leading national nonpartisan organization. They expose the links between all forms of exploitation. Such as CSCAM, prostitution, trafficking, and the public harms of online explicit material.
If you are a victim of exploitation and would like to reach a representative from NCOSE. Please email public@ncose.com or call (202) 393-7245.
If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera, You’re A Victim Of Domestic Abuse
Too often, men betray and exploit their wives. Husbands have victimized members of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. By uploading explicit videos to websites. Women request them to take these videos down. Users download videos and the video will continue to resurface. This re-traumatizes victims over and over again.
The Necessity To Hold P__nhub Accountable
The trauma that P__nhub victims experience is horrific and never-ending. Organizations like NCOSE recognize that exploitation is financially profitable. The organization itself isn’t reliable to self-police. That’s why NCOSE is calling on all credit card companies to stop processing payments for P__nhub.
How Can We Seek Justice for P__nhub Victims?
It’s not only large organizations and legislative decisions that can effect P__nhub’s accountability.
You can help, too.
Support the EARN IT act, which would hold “all platforms responsible” for child abuse material (CSAM).
Go to sexualexploitationlawsuits.com if you have been a victim of exploitation. And begin the process of seeking justice for yourself.
Refuse to use online explicit material and share your knowledge of its exploitative nature with others.
Exploitation is traumatizing. If you are a victim of exploitation, you deserve justice and a safe place to process your trauma. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today, find the community you need to begin your healing journey.
Transcript: If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera
Anne: I have Dani Pinter on today’s episode. She is Senior Legal Counsel for the National Center on Exploitation. The National Center on Exploitation was founded in 1962. It is the leading national non-partisan organization exposing the links between all forms of exploitation. Such as child abuse, prostitution, trafficking, and the public harms of online explicit material. And they have some amazing campaigns to stop the harm.
Today, we’ll talk about a New York Times article that revealed that P__nhub profits from child abuse material. And we call the national center on exploitation, NCOSE for short. NCOSE is calling on the Department of Justice to investigate P__nhub. NCOSE has been supportive of revoking the immunity that digital platforms use to avoid accountability. And is urging Congress to pass the Earn It Act. They have a blog post about this.
Dani: Sure, so Nick Kristof is an excellent journalist and reporter. What he did was highlight the reality that P__nhub’s not just a explicit materials site. This platform hosts real rape videos. And real videos of exploitation and abuse of children. They also host. He did this through some examples he discovered, and also through the stories of some of those survivors.
Anne: The article related to this podcast episode is on our website.
Survivors’ Ongoing Struggles
Anne: So as the lawyer for one of the survivors , what challenges are these survivors facing? Including those who’s intimae partner filmed them with a hidden camera?
Dani: One survivor said their abuse never ended because of P__nhub. Which is one of the biggest and most poignant things. Each survivor’s story is different. But they face some sort of exploitation, whether that was violent r_pe, child abuse or trafficking. And even when that horrific trauma ended. It lived on in eternity, because it was recorded and uploaded to P__nhub.
And for my client, that has meant these videos and images have spread all over the internet. She feels helpless to get rid of them, and faces them every day. She reached out to P__nhub and others and asked them to bring these videos down. They distributed it without her consent. Because she was trafficked. But she was a minor. So this is CSCAM actively online on P__nhub available for free.
You can Google the site, go on it, and reach it in seconds. P__nhub also allows this for download. So even though it was completely non-responsive to some victims. They took down videos Nicole asked them to take down. Only for them to resurface again and again.
Anne: Because someone had downloaded and re-uploaded it?
https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw
Dani: Yes, so P__nhub claims they use this cutting edge photo DNA technology. So banned videos can never re-enter the site. But Nicole is living proof that’s not true. Her videos and images are re-uploaded time and time again.
Anne: What are potential solutions for helping survivors receive justice when it seems so difficult from what you’ve described?
Dani: Well, there’s a couple, and you touched on some of them.
Potential Legal Solutions
The Department of Justice can now prosecute P__nhub. I want to talk a little about the immunity that internet platforms face. But even with that immunity, they’re not immune from federal criminal law violations. So if the Department of Justice had the will. They could absolutely investigate and prosecute P__nhub for the mass trafficking and CSCAM on their site.
So we want them to do that. Then additionally for victims, because there’s a very high threshold, to be successful in a criminal case. Because of limited resources, it’s difficult. So at NCOSE, we see the value in bringing civil litigation.
Dani: That’s where a survivor brings a civil case for monetary damages against a company. That holds them accountable. It makes them self-police. And it gets some measure of justice and recovery for the victims. Immunity prevents many of these victims from doing that. Because of that federal immunity. There’s a law called the Communications Decency Act. It was passed about 20 years ago.
And was actually an attempt to prevent the spread of obscenity and CSCAM on the internet. But the court struck it down, finding it unconstitutional, and kept only one part of that statute.
And the part of that statute that it kept was Section 230, and that was a good faith law. It shields protection for platforms. The statute meant to try to limit the spread of some harmful things on the internet. And if you do that in good faith, you’re immune from civil liability and state criminal liability. So even if your husband filmed you with a hidden camera and uploaded it, there may be no consequences for it.
Dani: Then the whole thing was struck down. We were left with justice immunity.
If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera: Section 230 and Platform Immunity
It was interpreted extremely broadly, because this was at the beginning of the internet. The courts expressed they wanted to allow the internet to flourish and not be prohibitive. So what that plays out in reality is that internet platforms have essentially blanket immunity.
That’s why they’ve grown so large, but that’s also why they’re almost accountable for nothing on their site. Specifically, what it says is that websites or web platforms are not responsible for third party content on their site. So P__nhub’s entire business model depends on this immunity, if not structured, because of this immunity. So what P__nhub does is it allows anyone to upload any video. All you need is an email address.
You can be a child. We’ve had countless cases of minors uploading videos of themselves on P__nhub. And they say that’s third party content. We’re not responsible for that. So that’s where CDA 230 immunity has many problems. Not just with P__nhub, but also on some of our mainstream social media sites. Where there may be trafficking or abuse material. And the site’s just not motivated to self-police, because they know they could never be held accountable.
Anne: Many of our listeners are victims of betrayal. Wives of users of online explicit materials users who are abuse victims. If your husband filmed you with a hidden camera, you are an abuse victim. Also because of marital coercion, they’ve been coerced into relationships with a man. Who says, hey, I totally abide by your boundaries. I don’t look at online explicit material. I don’t visit prostitutes.
But they actually do. So they’re coercing their wives. They’re using emotional and psychological abuse because they’re lying is emotionally abusive, and gaslighting to hide their online explicit materials use.
Betrayal Trauma & Online Explicit Materials
But they actually do. So they’re coercing their wives. They’re using emotional and psychological abuse because they’re lying and gaslighting to hide their online explicit materials use.
Anne: One of the things we talk about at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Is that a woman in a relationship with a man actively using online explicit materials, hiding it, using gaslighting and manipulation. They are going in depth wondering if it’s wrong to check their husbands phone for this kind of stuff. https://www.btr.org/is-it-wrong-to-check-your-husbands-phone/She’s in an abusive relationship. So I’m always talking about how it is always an abuse issue.
That is the issue at hand. Is it addictive? Sure, but we need to look at it from an abuse issue to treat it seriously. So knowing that, what are the solutions that would help solve the explosion of CSCAM? And other illegal and harmful content on P__nhub?
Dani: Well, there are some bare minimum things that we’d like to see, which would be age and consent verification. Because many women, I’m sure some of your listeners, have experienced being recorded by a hidden camera, and not agreeing to its subsequent dissemination, which is a huge problem.
You of all people understand. People get motivated to protect children. But it’s even more difficult to get the political will behind shutting down this type of image-based abuse. These platforms exploit adult women without their consent. There’s also the fact that obscenity law is valid federal law on the books right now. And what most people don’t understand is that although technically, the First Amendment protects it.
That’s just because, what is it, right? It could be anything from a magazine, to art, to what we see on P__nhub. So technically, the First Amendment protects the term pornography, but obscenity is not. In fact, obscenity isn’t even protected in the least.
Obscenity Law & Federal Prosecution
Dani: The court says obscenity is not speech, and has no protection. It is a crime to disseminate obscenity, it has a long legal definition, but the court has given guidelines. And said that explicit hardcord acts without any literary, political, scientific value is obscenity. That’s all the content on P__nhub. The Department of Justice can prosecute that right now. If your husband filmed you with a hidden camera and posted it, they could be prosecuted.
The truth is, when they actively prosecuted this. Which it was several presidents ago. What you see is that the content itself becomes milder and milder. The producers self-police. They know they could actually be prosecuted.
So what you get is significantly less exploited material and significantly less people being exploited. And even though this hasn’t been a priority of the U.S. federal government for a long time. There were still holdover cases that, as I think it was at 2012, the federal government got a prosecution in California. Against a producer for obscenity. And so that shows that it’s still possible. And there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be doing that.
Anne: Absolutely, can you talk about why they need more accountability?
Dani: Yes, it’s because exploitation is profitable. Many people don’t realize how exploitive these sites are. And how many people experience exploitation on even our mainstream social media sites. The reality is that it is in the company’s financial interest to have the most content possible.
To have the most users possible, to have the most economic transactions possible. Even if that means CSCAM. And at the National Center on Exploitation, we have been shining a light on these issues.
Has Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera: The Need for Corporate Accountability
Dani: These platforms know what’s going on, and P__nhub sees it. They certainly know what’s going on, and they’ve proven they won’t do the right thing on their own. They will not, and won’t even protect kids. They’re certainly not going to spend money to protect kids, and they won’t even lose profits to protect kids. So unfortunately, a sad reality is that when exploitation is profitable, you can’t leave it up to the corporations.
Anne: I could not agree more. So on that note, how can our audience help stop this?
Dani: So please support the EARN IT Act. As you mentioned, we would like to see the CDA 230 immunity go away altogether. But at least, EARN IT is a step in the right direction. So the EARN IT Act would hold all platforms responsible for the very narrow issue of CSCAM So if you have it on your site, you’re going to be accountable for that. We need this urgently, because it is an absolute epidemic.
The National Center on Missing and Exploited Children has one million reports of CSCAM a month. It is beyond the capacity for law enforcement to even investigate every case. So we need these sites to do it themselves. And the only way that’s going to happen is with legislation like Earn It. Which is fair and balanced, despite the fact that tech companies are spending millions to convince you otherwise.
So please go to our website. There are action items on how you can support that bill. We’re coming to a close session now, but we’ve made so much headway. We unanimously got through the Senate judiciary committee.
Supporting The EARN IT Act
Dani: We have a house sponsor now, and we hope it’s one of the first bills passed in the next session. So. Please support that. I think it’s one of the most urgent things we could do in the near future.
Anne: So to get information about that, their website is endsexualexploitation. org. One of the best ways to get involved with this campaign, but also the others they have, is to get on their mailing list. They send frequent emails to say, hey, take action on this now. And it’s a good and easy way to become involved, and they make it clear how to do that.
Dani: One of the things I would like to say, especially to your pool of listeners. I am so sorry that you’ve experienced what you have at the hands of online explicit material and users. If you’ve experienced being filmed by a hidden camera by your husband or if you’ve been exploited online. Please contact us, because we want to represent survivors like you. And we want to use your experience for the good and hold these corporations accountable.
So I would encourage you to contact me. If you could please put my contact info in here. We have a website for more information on potential causes of action. Potential lawsuits you may have. If you check it out, there’s a lot of information on internet platforms and how they’re exploitative. And a questionnaire that you can fill out about your experience. We’ll follow up with you, and we’d love to help you if we can.
If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera: Reach Out For Help
Anne: If you have a story to tell, if your husband has filmed you with a hidden camera. Without your knowledge and posted it online. We have many women who have had that experience where their husband has filmed them without their knowledge. He filmed and uploaded that. So please contact them if that has happened to you.
Anne: Dani, thank you so much for taking the time to come on today’s episode.
Dani: Thank you so much. It was wonderful to speak to your audience, I appreciate you.
How Do I Know If It’s Abuse? – Lorelai’s Story
Nov 01, 2022
The nature of psychological and emotional abuse leaves many victims unsure if they are even experiencing abuse. Many ask, “How do I know if it’s abuse?” Here’s what you need to know.
Even when victims experience marital rape, gaslighting, coercion, and physical abuse, they still ask the question, “How do I know if it’s abuse?”
Lorelai, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, joins Anne on the free BTR podcast to share her powerful story of escaping her husband’s sexual abuse, constant manipulation and gaslighting. Through the fog of abuse, she was able to use empowering tools to identify the abuse and set safety boundaries to begin her journey to healing.
How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: It Doesn’t Have To Be Physical Battering To Qualify As Abuse
Often, victims question the reality of their abusive relationship because they haven’t been punched in the face or put in the hospital. Physical battering is absolutely abuse – but it isn’t the only kind of abuse.
Visit our books page for a list of curated books that we recommend to victims.
How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: If You’re Here, Trust Yourself
Victims of psychological abuse often experience so much gaslighting, that discerning reality can feel nearly impossible. If you are here, we encourage you to trust yourself. Seek support, empowerment, and education, but trust your instincts. If you feel abused, you probably are. Take appropriate steps to protect yourself, and set safety boundaries to separate yourself from abusive behavior.
Anne: Lorelai, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, is on today’s episode. Welcome Lorelai.
Lorelai: Thank you for having me.
Anne: We’re so glad you’re here and grateful that you’re willing to share. Let’s start at the beginning. Did you recognize your husband’s behavior as abusive at first?
Lorelai: No, absolutely not. I had been in a previously abusive relationship, and that one was obvious. And then I met my husband, and he seemed like a gift from God. We’ve been for 17 years now. I did not realize it was abusive until a couple of years ago. And honestly, I didn’t realize the extent or scope of it. There was a lot of confusion. My husband is very subtle about it. It was really hard for me to catch.
I started following Betrayal Trauma Recovery regularly and like, overnight I was like, Oh, that explains everything.
Anne: When I was first married, I had a friend in a really abusive relationship. When I say really abusive, I would say mine was really abusive. I just didn’t know it, I didn’t understand psychological abuse and emotional abuse. Hers was physical. It was obvious. He was throwing things around. When I would tell her what was going on. She’d be like, Oh no, mine was way worse than that. Yours is a good guy.
What I went through was confusing because of all the psychological abuse. What did you attribute it to in the beginning, anger issues? What did you think was going on when you didn’t understand it was abuse?
Attributing Behavior To Circumstances
Lorelai: A good family raised my husband. He’s the youngest of five. He has strong family connections, but his family was a little weird. He got a lot of passes on many things, being the youngest of five. I attributed it to his family’s ongoing issues. And I attributed it to the blending of two families, because I have kids from my first relationship. People say marriage is hard work. I attributed it to the stress of working two jobs and being a police officer, and thought it was all circumstantial, like oh, he’s in a bad mood or he’s tired.
I didn’t think it was calculated and deliberate until Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Then I pinpointed exactly where it was calculated and deliberate. It shocked me. I was shocked at how calculated and deliberate it was.
Anne: It is shocking. Your whole paradigm of how you see your husband crumbles when you realize, wait a minute. I’ve been seeing him as a good guy who gets frustrated every once in a while. I realized he’s an abusive man. The mask comes off.
https://youtube.com/shorts/g4KuN5j4dpk
Lorelai: Yeah, for my husband, he puts out this persona of this great family guy. But when I looked closely, what I could see was him controlling every aspect of me. So how do I know if it’s abuse? It had nothing to do with the kids, his family, or my family. He was putting one image on everything, but I could pinpoint all our fights down to his inability to control me.
I’m a little bit of a fighter. I’m not just going to take it. So I was good at calling him on his crap. I was good at protecting my kids and trying to keep the peace.
Assertive Communication Myth
Lorelai: The harder I fought for what I knew was right, because I knew it was right. The more kickback I got, but only after Betrayal Trauma Recovery did I see that he was trying to control me the whole time. So that was eye-opening.
Anne: I am a fighter too. And I want to educate women about the myth of assertive communication. Because many women say to me, had I fought and had I called him out, maybe he wouldn’t have been that way. This is a big step in recovering from betrayal trauma. Your experience and my experience are no, we fought him every step of the way. And we still got abused and manipulated.
Lorelai: Absolutely, absolutely.
Anne: Were you aware of any exploitative materials use or any infidelity in your relationship?
Lorelai: My husband is a very private person. Being a police officer, he has his own computer and his phone is on lockdown. He actually works in a different state from where I live, because our youngest child has a significant disability. So he goes to school in a different area than where my husband works. And he’s been kind of bouncing back and forth between the two states. So we only saw him once or twice a week, really for the last five or six years.
So there wouldn’t have been any way for me to know, but he confessed to me at some point. And now looking back, I realized it was a manipulation. So it may or may not be true.
Identifying Abuse: Infidelity & Wifely Duties
Lorelai: But he told me that he had been emotionally involved with several, multiple, like more than five women at work. He said he just got caught up emotionally with them. He said nothing physical happened, but that he had spent a lot of time talking to them and sharing with them. He’d be like, I may have inadvertently not filled you in on things, because by the time I realized you didn’t know about it, it was way too late to fill you in.
Anne: The abusive behaviors you knew about were lying, manipulation, and gaslighting.
Lorelai: Everything physical and psychological, when you’re young and get married, you always want to have sex. Sometimes you give in when your husband wants to do it a second time. When I was younger, I didn’t think about it. I didn’t think about abuse, or how do I know how to identify abuse?
But looking back, I had it multiple times a day, it was too much. I was sore all the time. After we had our fourth child, I only got two weeks recovery before he expected me to return to fulfilling my duties.
Anne: “Fulfilling your duties,” Was that kind of a theme in your marriage? That it was owed to him, that it was one of your wifely duties?
Lorelai: Yes, it was owed to him. Although, he sugar coated it by making sure it was always good for me. And being really frank here, I love it. So it was easy for me to go along with it.
Marital Abuse & Disabled Child
Lorelai: When he put the effort in, I could have as many orgasms as I wanted, as long as I put out for him. So I didn’t realize at first that I couldn’t say no. I didn’t realize I couldn’t say no until, again, having our fifth child. He’s seriously disabled, and trying to say no, and then finding out that that wasn’t an option. He is my last child. His official diagnosis is autistic. He’s almost 13 now, and he is a big toddler. He’s potty trained, but his interests are on the level of a 2-3 year old.
He can kind of write his name, he’s a happy kid, but he’s a lot of work. He’s a sweetie, but he’s a big baby, and he has a strict bedtime. As my child’s disability became more apparent, I needed more. My husband was not willing to give it, I started being tired, depressed, or frustrated. As things progressed, I needed to talk more. So I would need to talk or relax before it, and that wasn’t an option.
And if I couldn’t talk or relax, and I wasn’t in the mood, there was a point where he could do stuff to me in the middle of the night. My body would respond, and it wasn’t a problem. Does that make sense? When the relationship was less damaging, my body would respond. I still wasn’t thinking about abuse, or wondering if I was being abused.
Anne: So what you’re saying is Even though it wasn’t necessarily consensual, you were like, okay, in the middle of the night, even though you didn’t say, yes, I want to have it. It was enjoyable for you. It was fine.
Boundaries & Night Incidents
Anne: Later, when you became tired and life got difficult. When he would start in the middle of the night without your consent, you were like, wait a minute.
Lorelai: Yeah, I feel like I was doing it out of obligation. Fine, get it over with, guys have needs, whatever. Which is obviously not a healthy mindset, but that’s where it was. To the point, where I suddenly started having issues with orgasms. At some point in there, he developed erectile dysfunction. Looking back on it, may have been a gift from God.
Anne: Mm hmm, pornography related, by the way.
Lorelai: Yes, when he couldn’t perform, it became like a mission for him to force me to perform. The answer would be no. He’d push it until I gave in, or until I said no, then he’d do it in the middle of the night anyway.
Eventually, it reached a point where, not only could I not have an orgasm, but also, if I did, it was painful. It was like being stabbed in the crotch with hot forks. And he would do it anyway. He would wake me up and I would be crying in the middle of the night, sobbing, because it was painful and horrible.
And he would be like, this is so horrible for me. And I would be like, then stop doing it because it’s horrible for me. You’re doing it to me. I didn’t ask for this. I didn’t want this. I didn’t know that this what marital coercion was. That was when I answered, how do I know if it’s abuse? I realized there was abuse going on.
How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: Carrying The Whole Weight Of The Household
Lorelai: But like I said, I didn’t catch on to the emotional stuff until last summer.
Anne: So before you recognize the abuse, the anger, manipulation, lies, gaslighting, did you do anything to try and solve the problem. In other words, the typical marriage advice. Like, communicate better, be sexy, or go on a date night. Did you try any of that to “make sure” he didn’t get angry, or was in a good mood?
Lorelai: Oh yeah, absolutely, I carried the whole weight of the household. I did all the bills, cooking, cleaning, and took care of the kids. He did nothing. He literally came home from work, sat on the couch and played on his phone. Or just watched TV, or walked his property, you know, king of the castle. He was king of the castle. He did nothing. I planned all the dates. I planned all the trips.
And then there became a point where he would sabotage all those things, and I could see him doing it. I just didn’t know why he was doing it. So I would plan things, and he would be so on board. And then we’d go and do it, and he’d be mean to the kids, super grumpy, it was ridiculous. I got to a point where I was like, fine, you plan date nights, and he didn’t. The relationship really tanked when I stopped doing all the work.
Anne: Is that also when the sexual abuse started to get worse?
Lorelai: Probably, my memory is not good. I’m good at blocking stuff out. And just forgetting all the things that I don’t want to think about. But I’m sure it probably did line up like that.
Setting A Boundary & Him Crossing It
Anne: Yeah. We all struggle with memory issues, so no worries there. We get it. You don’t recognize you’re being emotionally and psychologically abused here, but when you knew it was abuse. What did you start to do?
Lorelai: I stopped discussing it with him, because there were always discussions about it before that. And what was going to make it good for everybody. At that point, I was like no, this isn’t a discussion because it’s not good for me. You’re forcing it on me, and you need to stop doing what you’re doing. Don’t touch me, don’t force me, and don’t do stuff to me in the middle of the night. Don’t even kiss me unless you’ve checked with me first.
I set a hard, no physical contact boundary until I say so. And he just stopped, except for in the middle of the night. Again, stuff was happening in the middle of the night. I’m exhausted and was sleeping deep. There was no waking me up. I would wake up in the morning, or I’d have nightmares. I knew something happened, but I wouldn’t have been able to wake up for it.
So, during the day, he was farther away physically, and at night, the incidents were still happening. That was a really clear message to me that he didn’t care about my boundaries.
Anne: Did you ever feel like he didn’t care about you?
Lorelai: Oh yeah, I felt that way all the time, but I kept trying to tell myself that wasn’t true.
Seeking Help From Clergy
Lorelai: You don’t marry somebody in the temple and have kids with them, and buy them a house and a car. And see, I’m a woman, so common sense dictates that you don’t treat people like that unless you love them. So, it never occurred to me to doubt his love for me. But his kind of love is not the kind of love I want anyway.
About two years ago, it had gotten to the point where I was suicidal. I have a handicapped child and four other wonderful children, and a great supportive family. And I was suicidal, and I could not figure out what it was. I talked to my Bishop and said, look, like I’m unhappy in my marriage. My husband treats me like garbage. I’m not happy about what’s going on. Now, let me be clear. I’ve talked to several bishops about this, and nobody did anything.
One of my bishops was going to tank Jason’s career over it. He was convinced not to, because that was not in the best interest of anybody at that point. And so he backed off and left it alone. And after that point, I didn’t feel comfortable seeing him, because I knew he felt strongly about it. He was a great guy, and had eight girls, okay? He had a lot of kids, and they were all girls.
So he was one of those guys looking out for his women, and he was protective. I didn’t want to talk to him about it anymore. because I was concerned he would talk to Jason and that Jason would make my life worse.
Identifying abuse: Bishops’ Reactions
Anne: All right, many women come on this podcast, and I talk to a lot of women. They are concerned their clergy isn’t doing enough. They’re concerned they’re not taking it seriously, and that they’re not holding them accountable. Now we know every woman’s situation is different. So in this case, in your particular instance, your concern with this bishop wasn’t that he was not doing enough. It was that he was doing so much that you were worried about his job?
Lorelai: Yes, Jason is a police officer, but it’s like the military. There’s a rank, there’s a chain of command to go up. My bishop at that time was in the military, so he understood that chain of command and was willing to take steps. But it was not a good idea at that time, financially and socially for my kids. It would have broken our family apart, and I was just not in any kind of healthy place at that point to go through that.
Anne: I want to just pause here to note. All the things that victims go through, because people are always like, why don’t women report sexual abuse? Talking to Lorelai, a super smart, capable, aware person in an abusive relationship who gets help from someone. Then faces all these other consequences that people don’t consider. And that is one of the reasons why women don’t report.
And that’s also one of the reasons why sometimes they say, no, don’t help. It’s important to understand all the different aspects when they’re trying to figure out what’s going on. And figuring out how to identify abuse, and then secondly, when they’re trying to get to safety.
Concerned Clergy
Lorelai: Yes, absolutely. Remember, because I told you that I live in a different state than my husband. We were in the state where he worked. I’m in a different state now. But he basically lived with his parents, where he worked when he was working. And when he was not working, he would return to where we are in a different state.
So when that move happened, obviously we had a different bishop than the last one trying to look out for me. And it’s been five years since we’ve been here, and we’ve had two bishops. And the first one, I think, was concerned. My first bishop here was friends with Jason, so it was not going to get addressed.
I could see that he felt bad. He actually cried when I told him what was going on, but he did nothing. By the time I was suicidal, we had a different bishop. And when I talked to him about what was going on with Jason, he’s not a crier. So that didn’t happen. He did not confront Jason either, because I told him not to. But what he did was reinforce to me. He said my dad was abusive to my mom, and nobody should ever have to go through that. He said I’m not gonna tell you what to do.
I’m not gonna tell you to leave him, I’m not gonna tell you to stay with him. What I’m will say is that what is happening to you right now is not okay, it’s abuse. It should not be happening.
Medication & Realization
Lorelai: If you’re suicidal, maybe you want to think about seeing a psychiatrist and getting on some meds. But absolutely, what he’s doing to you is wrong. He was pretty new, so I don’t know that he knew exactly what to do. When he just recommended I go get some medication. But that’s how it started. I started with medication for being suicidal. And while I was on the medication, I realized I could pretty much ignore all the horrible things he did, because I just stopped caring.
I was totally zombied out. They tried me on six different medications in a year. At the end of it, I realized that the health problems I had already developed because of being in this abusive relationship were worse. My health worsened because of the medication I was taking that I didn’t need.
What I needed was to get out of the abusive relationship, stop taking the medication, and deal with the relationship. So what I did was look at your stuff on Facebook. Facebook has that great algorithm. You know, if you’ve looked at this, you might like this. So Facebook knew I was looking for a therapist to deal with some trauma. So I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I stopped seeing my one therapist within a few months, and started coaching with Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
There was a particularly bad incident. I don’t even remember what happened, but it was bad. And I didn’t know what to do.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Identify abuse
Lorelai: I opened Facebook and saw Betrayal Trauma Recovery and the support group. I signed up for the group, and went to my first one. And I was trying to talk to people about what was happening, because I was just sorting it out. I was confused and like, what is going on here? How do I fix this? How do I know if it’s abuse for sure? Like I said, just shock.
Group resonated so drastically in my soul, instantaneously. I thought, I am officially not responsible for this relationship anymore. It was this huge weight off of me, it was like the lightbulb went on, ding! I was overwhelmed. It wasn’t me, it was never me, it was always him. I could trace it all the way back through now 18 years. I could see every incident. Everything just resonated. It was like, this is not your fault. The problem is not you. The problem is with his behavior.
Lorelai: And at that point, I was like, yep, and within about three months, we were separated.
Anne: This is why abuse education is so important. Abuse education doesn’t create abuse. The abuse exists. And we help women recognize it. It’s not the women who come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, whose husbands are these incredible healthy men. And then after they get educated about abuse, they’re like, oh, my word, he’s abusive. That doesn’t happen. If he’s healthy, and women listen to the podcast and get educated about abuse. They are like, oh, I don’t relate to that.
So for women listening and wondering I’m not sure. That makes me nervous. I don’t want to go to this group, and they’re going to make a mountain of a mole hill.
Knowing Whether Or Not He’s Abusive
Anne: I want to put everybody at ease. Many women have listened to the podcast or they’ve attended a group session. And they’re like, I didn’t relate. Also, The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women figure out what is my husband’s true character. Many women have enrolled, and they’re like, holy cow, this explains everything. Then other women have been like, this definitely explains abuse, and now I know he’s not abusive.
Your abusive husband will tell you that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was the cause of you thinking he’s abusive when he’s not. And that’s just not true. You will know once you get educated about abuse, whether he’s abusive, and then you can make decisions.
Lorelai: Oh, absolutely.
Anne: Can you talk about maybe your fear at first?
Lorelai: I didn’t have that. I read all the relationship books. My husband was sneaky. It was just little things. Nobody noticed them. I didn’t even notice them. He would just blink, and then I would blow up, and I would be the crazy one. I’m the redhead, the one who’s losing it all the time over dumb stuff. I’m the one who’s just stressed and overwhelmed from taking care of the baby. Never mind the fact that he never bothered to help take care of the baby. It was always me.
He had made it clear from the beginning that he was putting up with me, and I believed him. That’s my issue. I don’t know why I believed him for 17 years. That’s something I’m working through now. It’s helping me.
Separation & Moving On
Lorelai: And honestly, it’s helping my girls, because guess what? I have two girls. Who are 21 and 23 respectively, who are struggling with relationships. These guys are not up to par, and they don’t know why this stuff is happening. So my girls and I are doing the work together. It took a little bit to separate. He did not want to separate. It’s funny, because the whole time he tells me that maybe he needs to find somebody else because I’m so worthless.
Then when I say, great, let’s move on, he’s like, no, no, I don’t want to move on. Because he doesn’t get to control me if I move on. So it took a little bit of doing to get him out. Obviously, I can’t just pick up my handicapped kid out of his special school and relocate anywhere. I had to convince my husband, who was pretty much living in another state anyway, except for one or two days a week, to just stay, and to let his child be here.
So it took a little bit of doing to get that done. He pretty much cut off support the minute that he realized it was over.
Anne: That’s very, very typical of an abuser, because they don’t care about your welfare or the kid’s welfare. Because no one who actually cared about you would think, like, how’s she going to pay for groceries? Like, how are my kids gonna eat? But it’s a control tactic to cut off the finances. Because if they cut off the finances, they think you’re going to come crawling back because you’re desperate for groceries. So it’s a control tactic.
How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: Financial Abuse
Lorelai: Yeah, you know what’s funny? Thinking back, my husband has used every abuse tactic in the book, but he didn’t use them at the same time. Because I fought it and adapted. So when one abuse tactic stopped working, he switched to a different one. And his biggest abuse tactic was the financial abuse. So for the last three or four years, I haven’t had any credit cards of my own. He’s in charge of the money. And I just thought he was finally being responsible.
I thought he was finally interested in the budget, but he was systematically cutting me off of everything. In the middle of us separating, he refinanced the house and took my name off the mortgage. Which I guess was supposed to hurt me, but actually it’s gonna hurt him because I’m still on the deed. Every time I established a boundary, he would adapt his abuse. It wasn’t gonna end.
Anne: Instead of recognizing that you’re equal and on the same team. Abusive men feel like they don’t have any power. They don’t have any personal power unless they have power over someone. One of the ways they keep an imbalance of power is by withholding information so that they know more than you. So if you find out what they know, suddenly you’re equal. So then they’re like, Oh shoot, I’ve got to find another way to maintain this power imbalance.
Because that is what abuse is, in a nutshell: they don’t feel like they have any power in their own life unless they have power over you. So how do I know if it’s abuse? If he has to maintain power over you.
Healthy Relationships
Anne: Whereas in a healthy relationship, two people find power from honesty and equality. The power is the personal power that you have when you’re honest, kind and integrity. That is a power that I don’t think these abusive men understand.
Lorelai: Yeah, I’ve devoted my whole life to my kids. I have five kids, and we’re all close. Looking back, I’ve seen where he wasn’t happy about that. He wasn’t happy my kids and I were close, or when he would end up on the outside. Just because he never bothered to spend time with anybody, get to know anybody, or be involved in anybody’s lives. He hated that.
And so looking back, I realized that many of the problems I had with my kids, a lot of just normal parenting stuff, you know, fights and who’s in charge of this. He started because he didn’t want me and my children to have a good relationship. I have only seen our relationship get stronger as I’ve moved on. My kids and I are closer than ever.
I was just thinking about this this morning, it kind of made me cry a little bit. I have five children, and three are from a different dad, but my kids don’t talk about being half siblings. It’s just brothers and sisters, they’re all super close. And they’re all super caring and loving towards each other, and there’s no distinction for us. He didn’t understand that, and he’s missing out.
Anne: Yeah, so he cut you off financially. Did you have to file stuff in court in order to help your finances?
Lorelai: Yes, we had to expedite things when he cut everybody off. My mom died unexpectedly from cancer and we moved here to help my dad put the pieces back together.
Support From Family
Lorelai: And then we ended up staying, because the schools here were fantastic. And my little guy needed a good school. So we decided it was in his best interest. And my husband had no problem living halfsies, one in each state. Because it was for the greater good of our youngest child. So my dad has been supportive. As soon as my mom died, he basically was like, can I just live with you? He has a room at my house, and he has moved in full time.
Since Jason and I separated, my dad has been great about making sure everything’s covered for me. It’s hard for him to see what’s going on.
Anne: Has he been surprised at how abusive Jason is?
Lorelai: Yes, he has. I don’t know if he would have believed it if he hadn’t seen it with his own eyes. I’m the oldest of five. One of my brothers has died, but I still have other siblings, and I’m pretty close with everybody. I think everybody was surprised. You never know what goes on in people’s lives. It’s so important not to make judgment calls or anything based on what you can see on the outside. But yeah, so my dad has been really, really, really great.
He’s helped me start a business. I’m doing a notary business now, and I work another job. I can work from home, all gifts from God, because it’s hard to get out with my little guy.
Anne: One of the things I noticed once I stopped managing his life. Number one was he didn’t do anything, nothing to try and get back in my home. But I also noticed how peaceful I felt. I noticed how much better my life was going.
How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: Emotional Growth & Recovery
Anne: Even though I was in like limbo in terms of how anything was going to go, I was feeling a lot better. Tell me where you are in that process and how you’re feeling right now.
Lorelai: I’m feeling good. It was hard, right after it happened. It was bleak in the winter. But I did a lot of coaching with Betrayal Trauma Recovery during that time. That was helpful. My health improved, I don’t have night terrors anymore, I’m not as afraid all the time. Then I crunched hard on my business, because I needed something to keep me going.
While I felt safer at home, checking my email was always traumatic. I got a pain in my chest when I checked my email and saw an email from him, because I knew it wasn’t going to be anything good. So now we have the Our Family Wizard app.
Anne: Yeah, using the strategies you learned from The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop improves things significantly. Women say they start feeling better because they’re not as traumatized by their phone, especially when they implement the strategies on Our Family Wizard.
Lorelai: Yeah, getting accurate documentation of all the abuse. Because we still own this house together, and my oldest son is also autistic, he was the main guy on my son’s SSI account. There were things we needed to discuss from time to time. Much of it has been learning how to remind myself that whatever he has to say does not reflect on me, it only reflects on him.
There’s been a lot of growth this year. My friends and my family have all commented that I seem so much happier. I’m doing so much better.
Challenges Of Education & Work
Lorelai: And I’m sure I will only continue to get better from here. It was scary, because I only have a little college. Every time I tried to work a job or go back to school, he didn’t like that. He would create problems. He would punish me when I tried to go to school or work. Or he would disappear and dump everything off on me and the kids.
And my poor kids, it would be a choice between taking care of my kids and going to school. When a 14 year old is handling everything because my husband doesn’t come home for a month. So having no education and financial prospects was scary. But it was scarier to stay in the relationship. And that’s what it came down to.
Anne: So if you could go back in time and talk to your younger self, what would you tell yourself?
Lorelai: I would be telling myself that I was worthy of love. I have learned that your feelings really are your biggest indicator of emotional safety.
And what I would tell my younger self is not to ignore those feelings, because they are crucial. When you get a funny feeling about somebody, that is legitimate. That is your cue. God has given you the feelings to tell you about things that you can’t know. Like there are so many things that you don’t know about people. And there’s no way to know sometimes, and feelings are how you know. So no that you know it’s abuse, how are you feeling?
Importance Of Feelings
Lorelai: So real love is a feeling that you can identify, and fear is a feeling you can identify. And uneasiness is a feeling that you can identify. I would go back and talk about how feelings are important, and how we are all valuable and lovable. I believe that for me personally, I wouldn’t have been so willing to swallow his nonsense about how it was me. If I had known how important it was to trust my own feelings. I didn’t trust myself. I didn’t know that I could trust myself.
Anne: And we’ve all been there. We’ve all been there, where the things we’ve learned now have opened our eyes. I’m so grateful that you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And found a place where you could get the words for what was happening to you and feel validated.
Lorelai: Yes, it was definitely put in my path. At the appropriate time, exactly when I was ready.
Anne: Sometimes I worry that women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and they’re not ready to go there. And they think, no, my husband’s not abusive. This is just a pornography issue. Or this is just infidelity. Those Betrayal Trauma Recovery people, they’re a little too intense. What would you say to them?
Lorelai: That’s exactly where I started. I found it. It didn’t feel like my problem exactly until I realized they all felt the same way I did. And maybe the problem was bigger than I thought, and Betrayal Trauma Recovery covers more than just the exploitative material and cheating issue. I mean, that’s a big indicator. It’s a very common indicator, but it is not the only indicator.
Respect & Human Dignity
Lorelai: And the reality is that the underlying cause is lack of respect, lack of interest in another person. The person you’re supposed to care the most about, your wife. And that’s what Betrayal Trauma Recovery addresses. All of us feel like we’re not getting the respect we deserve or the love we need. We’re human beings. We should be treated like human beings, not objects. That’s what it comes down to.
Anne: Lorelai, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. And talking about finding your realization that you are experiencing abuse.
Lorelai: I appreciate you taking the opportunity to talk with me, and I hope anyone who needs to hear this can hear it and start working to get safe.
Anne: Thank you.
Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent With Laila Mickelwait
Oct 25, 2022
It’s important for women to understand that under Federal Law, the distribution of intimate images without consent is illegal. If it’s happened to you, here’s what you need to know. When Laila Mickelwait, founder and CEO of the Justice Defense Fund, began questioning the legality of P____b’s content. She quickly learned that P____b is full of videos that document the abuse of women.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we take the firm stance that pornography is abusive to everyone involved. P____b is a gateway, catalyst, and enabler to some of the most graphic, insidious, and violent abuse on the internet. If your husband uses exploitative material you’re likely experiencing his emotional abuse. To discover if he’s using any of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Here’s How P____b Distributes Intimate Images Without Consent
P____b and other pornography sites, hosts videos of:
Rape
Violence
Coercion
Underage vicims
Unconscious victims
P____b harms victims every day by allowing abusers to post filmed abuse. Protecting women from abuse is our goal. You can help today. Sign the petition here and let your voice be heard. P____b has ruined too many lives – it’s time to hold this industry accountable. To learn more listen to the FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.
Transcript: Distribution of Intimate Images Without Consent
Anne: Laila Mickelwait is the founder and CEO of the Justice Defense Fund and the founder of the global trafficking hub movement supported by millions around the world. She has been combating the injustice of sex trafficking for over a decade and is a leading expert in the field. We are talking about distribution of intimate images without consent. Welcome Laila.
Laila: Thanks for having me.
Anne: Our audience is well aware of the harms of exploitative material on families. And also how it intersects with trafficking. Let’s talk about the work you are doing to bring justice to survivors of trafficking and child sex abuse.
Laila: You know, I’ve been doing this work for over 15 years. I don’t have a dramatic story of how I focused on this area. I grew up in a home where my father focused on human rights issues. He grew up in the Middle East in the midst of war. And he always instilled in us this sense of awareness about human rights issues and justice issues throughout our lives. And I came back around to that when I tried to decide what direction I wanted to pursue in my studies and my career path.
I realized I wanted to invest myself in something that would benefit me, and focus on alleviating human rights abuses. And came across the issue of trafficking around that time. Especially women and children stricken by the severity of the harm. And so that’s how I ended up focusing down that path.
Discovering Online Exploitation
Laila: As time went on. One thing I realized was that trafficking and these abuses were not only going on in brothels in Cambodia, the United States, streets and back alleys, and prostitution, but also online. And through the industry, I realized there is a big industry, a big tech industry and a big tobacco industry.
And that, I began to investigate and research over the last nine years. The intersection between trafficking, child sexual abuse material, all forms of image-based sexual abuse, and the big industry. I spent significant time looking into the harm it does to children. They’re exposed to these kinds of sites. You know, at very young ages these days. As of December, P____b was the largest and most popular exploitative material site in the world.
In 2020, they reported 47 billion visits to the site that year. 130 million visits per day in 2019. They had 6. 8 million videos uploaded to that one site. It would take you 169 years to watch the content uploaded to P____b in just one year. I was investigating that site because I was questioning. There were so many videos. Women in these homemade videos appeared victims of assault. They appeared to be in pain and protesting and not consenting to what was going on.
So that is distribution of intimate images without consent. And also homemade videos of girls that appeared to be underage teens and tweens. And I’m the antidote. How are they vetting these videos? And why is everybody in the world just assuming that because it’s on P____b, it’s legal. One night, my baby awakened me. And as I put him back to bed, I pondered these questions. They haunted me.
Personal Investigation & Findings
Laila: And I had an idea. I said, I’m going to try this test upload for myself. And so I took out my laptop and tried the upload process. I found out what millions of people would have already known. But nobody sounded the alarm about before. And that all that it takes to upload content onto the world’s most popular site was an email address. No ID to prove that you’re of age.
No consent form to show you weren’t assaulted or trafficked. So that is distribution of intimate images without consent. And that was the moment where everything came to a head. And where the Trafficking Hub was born and the movement began.
Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we consider all pornography as abuse. So for example, if someone says, well, Anne, a 12 year old boy who views it, is not an abuser. I would say, yeah, you’re right, but you know what has happened to him? It has abused him. SIt’s always an abuse issue in one form or another.
And the fact that people upload child sexual abuse material on P____b and profit from it is absolutely atrocious. So you use the term child sexual abuse material, which more and more people fighting use. Why has that been an important evolution to that term, child sexual abuse material, and away from child pornography?
Laila: Yeah, I think the way we talk about things matters. And one of the things brought to the surface regarding this issue. Is exactly what you’re saying, is this issue of abuse. And understanding abuse and talking about it in terms of abuse of children instead of pornography.
The Importance Of Terminology: Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent
Laila: So when I think of exploitative material, we think of an industry, we think of LA or a studio. We think of entertainment, we think of issues often brought up with free speech. And all these kinds of things that people talk about when they talk about it. Something used for pleasure. And so connecting children to that does not do justice to the harm that the Act has had on that child.
And being able to call it child sexual abuse material. I think, really describes what’s going on in a way that is so much fairer to the experience of victims. And doesn’t minimize or legitimize it in any way. What they went through, because children can’t consent to any of this no matter what. So anything involving children, which is distribution of intimate images without consent.
Like you said, advocates are starting to reframe that more and more. For people to better understand what’s going on by calling it child sexual abuse material. I agree with you regarding the consumption of this content when children are viewing it. I often call it a form of secondhand sexual abuse. Children exposed or even willingly seek out that content.
A curious 10, 11 year old who heard the word it at school. He goes home and searches Google for the word and ends up on P____b. Where there are so many thumbnails just on the home page where they auto play. You don’t even have to click play in any of the cases on the home pages of these sites.
Impact On Children & Families
Laila: A recent peer reviewed research study in England. They found significant videos on the homepages of these exploitative image tube sites, like P____b. They represented non-consensual sexual activity or criminal sexual activity, or actual criminal and non-consensual sexual activity. So, this is a real form of abuse of children. Children are exposed at alarming rates when they access this. And it’s doing damage to them.
So I’m a big advocate for protecting children from this kind of content.
Anne: I’m willing to say it’s not even secondhand that it’s just simply sexual abuse. Children are sexually abused when they view it. And I was talking to a friend, and she said she overheard someone give this speech. And they were like, when a child comes to you and says they looked at it. You just need to say two words, and everything will be good. And you look at them and tenderly say, It’s okay, and then that solves everything.
And she and I were like, no! No, that’s not what you say. You don’t say, it’s okay. You say, I’m so sorry. That should never have happened to you. That is a form of sexual abuse. I know you probably had some feelings going on because you’ve got a body, so you’re half curious, half traumatized. You talk about that stuff, but you should never say to a kid when they see it, it’s okay.
Don’t say many people have viewed it, or that’s happened to everyone. You should not say that. You should say, I am so sorry. That should never have happened to you. Or the person in it who is a victim of distribution of intimate images without consent.
Laila: Yeah, yes, I agree with that.
Children Traumatized By Viewing
Laila: And I’ve also been in touch with so many distraught parents, especially the last year and a half. They told me stories of their children. Viewing this content traumatizes them. What happens is serious. And in some cases, they’ve said, my son, after viewing the homepage of P____b, believed he witnessed an attack. And based on what we know about P____b, it’s likely that he witnessed an actual assault. That is distribution of intimate images without consent.
He believed it was real. Even if it was staged. They said he wasn’t the same after that. He changed. Viewing it traumatized him in a very concrete, real sense. And had to go into therapy, and they’re still working through that. It’s months and months later after exposure. In other cases, parents have told me about situations where their children had viewed it and then acted out what they saw on their siblings.
So basically a situation of assault and sexual assault against a younger sister, and that’s not uncommon to hear those stories. So I think it’s so important for us to see the seriousness of this. And handle it in a way that recognizes the real lasting trauma that could happen to children when they get exposed. And then we need to start advocating for protection. We need mandatory age verification laws. I was so encouraged to see what Germany is doing.
Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent: International Legislative Efforts
Laila: Germany is taking it so seriously that they’re on the brink of shutting down these sites, and the major tube sites in the country. Turning the switch off because they refuse to verify the age of users and protect children from this content. Because they recognize that it’s harmful to children.
Anne: Go Germany!
Laila: Yeah, exactly! And there are other countries, Canada has a bill introduced to do the same. Where they would require age verification for any site that hosts it. I think Australia is also looking into this, and the UK has taken this seriously. So I’m hopeful that we’ll get to a point where we are collectively having a new attitude about this and taking the harm to children very seriously.
Anne: Let’s talk specifically about the trafficking hub movement. And what you do to stop the harm done by P____b and also hold companies accountable that are profiting from assault videos. Video distribution of intimate images without consent.
Laila: Yeah, so going back to where I left off with the story. So I had made that personal discovery, something that so many people had already known. Tthat all it took was to upload content onto the world’s largest sites was an email address.
Anyone With An I-Phone Can Produce It
Laila: So anonymously, anybody in the world with an iPhone could be a producer, record a crime scene and upload it to the site. Nobody was verifying age and consent. And because of that, they set the site up for exploitation. And infested with videos of real assaults, trafficking, assault, child sexual abuse, and also spy cam videos.
People record women without their knowledge in public restrooms, changing rooms, and even teen prom toilets. Then they become victims of distribution of intimate images without consent. They’d installed cameras there and recorded and The site was full of those kinds of things.
Anne: I have met several women in our community whose husbands filmed them with a hidden camera in the shower or while they had sex, and then they uploaded. So we also know that in marriage relationships, this is happening. Husbands secretly film their wives in various compromising circumstances, and upload that.
Laila: Yes, that’s happening quite a lot. Yes, distribution of intimate images without consent. Non consensually recorded and distributed in apps. And that is, yes, again, infested. This type of content infests these sites. When distribution of intimate images without consent happens, people record women. And they don’t even know. And then they upload it sites.
P____b had a download button on every video, where anyone in the world, 130 million visitors per day, could download and own it for free. That trauma of that individual or that non-consensual video recorded and distributed. And then uploaded forever again, and again, and again. It gets completely out of control once it’s uploaded in the first place. So the trauma to victims of this, they call it the immortalization of their trauma.
MindGeek’s Monopoly & Accountability
Laila: Where it’s one thing to experience an assault. It’s another thing to know that that assault will be used for profit long after they’re even gone. Because of distribution of intimate images without consent. And so, all that to say, back when I made this discovery about this issue. This site full of these illegal crime scene videos, I wrote an op-ed about it in February of last year. People were shocked and horrified when that was published. It got an explosive reaction.
Because it has presented itself to the world for so many years. People spend so much money on things like save the pandas, bees, and the oceans. And raise awareness about breast cancer, donate masks for coronavirus to hospitals. And do all these different PR stunts. To make people believe they were this mainstream, ethical, “cute” company.
And when they found out the site was full of child assault and abuse. They were horrified about what was going on. And they said, I want to do something, please start a petition or I will. So I copied and pasted my op ed into a petition for change. Our petition went viral. And now we have 2. 2 million signatures from 192 countries.
And over 600 organizations from 65 countries participated in calling for P____b to be held criminally responsible for what they’ve done. There have been protests outside the MindGeek headquarters. And MindGeek, FYI, MindGeek is the company that owns P____b. MindGeek owns 80 percent, which is the number cited. 80 percent of the online mainstream industry. They have a monopoly on the global mainstream pornography industry.
Distribution Of Intimate Images Without. Consent: Media Exposure & Financial Impact
Laila: Owning hundreds of brands and sites, and they’ve basically swallowed up all the little companies. And rolled it all up into one huge mega corporation, MindGeek. And P____b is just one site of the many, many sites they own, the flagship site. So calling for criminal accountability for MindGeek. Also, hundreds of media articles were written in 2020. And then the New York Times did a groundbreaking investigation and released an expose in December called the Children of P____b.
And this was the harrowing stories of children who’d been abused for profit on the site. They are victims of distribution of intimate images without consent. That resulted in 4, 000 follow-up articles. And within days, Visa, MasterCard, and Discover cut ties with P____b and MindGeek. And then P____b deleted 80 percent of its site. So the 10th most visited website in the world deleted 10 million videos in 24 hours after all this happened.
And they’ve been on a crippling trajectory ever since, obviously financially crippled because they can only take cryptocurrency. But there have also been parliamentary investigations launched. Where the hidden owners of P____b have been forced out of the shadows. They’ve been hiding their identities for years, using fake names and concealing themselves from the public. And they’ve been forced out of the shadows and identified.
Anne: Oh, really quick. I doubt anyone would know who these people are, but who are they? Like, do they own a football team? Are they like doctors, are they like upstanding members of society? Like, who are they?
Hidden Owners Names
Laila: Yeah, I will say their names, because I like saying their names because they have hidden for so long. So Bern Birkmayer. He’s a man from Austria found just weeks ago, actually, by an investigative journalist. Who located him and actually got him on camera for the first time in London. But he also has a residence in Hong Kong. He’s a businessman.
And Farris Antoon and Corey Ehrman. Corey Ehrman has used fake names, Corey Price and Blake White, for years, speaking in the media over and over again. And these are men who run the site, and they profit from male entitlement to women’s bodies.
And the latest lawsuit is on behalf of 34 women. It is based on the testimonies of firsthand accounts of those inside the company, whistleblowers, and other evidence that this is actually a criminal enterprise.
This is organized crime, and they were sued. Using the laws that we go after the mob with. So Rico racketeering, child pornography, trafficking, and all that was a massive lawsuit recently filed. So that’s who they are.
Anne: We talk about all the pain and suffering that trafficking, and child sexual abuse causes to the world in general. And then obviously specific individuals. Who are victims of distribution of intimate images without consent. whIt’s just overwhelming, all the pain and suffering it’s caused. What do you think is next? And then also, how can our community of women who have been so deeply impacted in their homes by it. How can they help this cause?
Laila: I agree. There have been people and advocates who’ve been pioneering. And pushing back against this for so many years, and it’s so exciting to see traction.
The Power Of Collective Action
Laila: And see the mega-predator, is what I call Mind Geek and P____b accountable. Truly kind of a villain situation where you have the villain and the victims. And to see victims obtaining justice, getting their voices heard, exposing the criminal enterprise as the lawsuit called it behind all this. It’s so encouraging and exciting, but we’re not done yet. P____b and MindGeek are severely crippled. And we’ve already seen a domino effect within its largest competitor.
So the New York Times also did an expose after P____b on XVideos. And PayPal stopped doing business with XVideos. And they’re under criminal investigation in the Czech Republic where they’re based. There’s been a shaking and reckoning within this industry. But we’re not done. We want to see real, full justice. And for me and the victims I’ve spoken to, what that means is restitution. For the distribution of intimate images without consent of the individual.
We want successful civil litigation. And there have been six lawsuits. On behalf of 97 women launched against MindGeek since the summer of last year. And three of them are class actions for trafficked minors. But we want to see these successful. We want to see these victims compensated. And then we want to see criminal prosecutions of the executives responsible for this. Ultimately, what I see and victims see as justice is to see the site shut down. To see it actually shut down.
Because you think about Harvey Weinstein when he was caught raping women. They didn’t let him just say sorry and go on his merry way. That’s not how the law works. That’s not how justice works. He needs to be put in prison for sexual abuse, criminal sexual abuse.
How to Get Involved To Stop Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent
Laila: So we need to see the same thing. We don’t let them hide behind a corporation. When this actual mass abuse has happened for so long. You want to be part of this, with so many organizations and advocates, individuals and victims. Who’ve joined this movement to hold MindGeek accountable and stop distribution of intimate images without consent. Sign the trafficking petition at traffickinghubpetition.com. Share it, and also speak with your representatives. They work for you.
And raise this issue with them and tell them we need to see the Stop Internet Sexual Exploitation Act passed. This is one way to help stop human trafficking and exploiation. And that would require age and consent verification for every individual in every video on these sites. You can go to justicedefensefund.org and read about what we’re doing to empower victims to pursue civil litigation against their abusers. Because these corporate abusers care about finances above everything.
And so if we can hit them where it hurts, in their bank accounts and on behalf of victims, that’ll also help to really rein in this criminal enterprise.
Anne: There are many women and people I talk to, and many people roll their eyes when I talk about it. Yeah, we know it’s bad, but trying to stop it, are you kidding me? You could never do that. And I always think, absolutely, we can. I don’t know how long it will take, I don’t know how we will do it. But we have to think that we can do something to actually do it. In the Christian faith, faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain.
Personal Safety & Empowerment
Anne: So it starts with us believing it’s possible. And for my community, the first thing they need to start believing is that they themselves can get to safety in their own homes. Number one thing on their list is emotional, physical, and sexual safety in your own home. As a victim myself, your own heart leads you to try and help others. Will you say that website will be one more time where they can sign that petition?
Laila: Yeah, traffickinghubpetition.com. Awareness is the doorway to action, so we can stop distribution of intimate images without consent. You know, people can’t act on something they’re not aware of. And with regard to all this, in the industry, and people not taking this seriously. Or kind of joking about it.
I think what is helpful is when people realize the real harm this is doing. To real victims in front of the screen and behind it, and to begin seeing this as the real human rights issue it is. And so get people to safety. For those used behind the screens, that’s a great thing. And those, like children exposed to this, prevent them from being exposed to this. Prevent that sexual abuse from ever happening. That’s a lot of effort, and if we can do that, that’s a huge victory.
Anne: For one woman to become emotionally, psychologically, and sexually safe in her own home. That is a huge victory for her. And it’s also one of the battles in this war. Each one of us is a piece of this puzzle. If you are on this journey and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.
Building A Supportive Community For Victims Of Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent
Laila: Yes, and never underestimate. What I’ve seen so much over the last year and a half. With this trafficking hub movement, one by one, adding your voice, organizations collaborating, and working together. We can’t take on a multi-billion dollar predatory criminal enterprise alone.
We have to do it together, and that’s the only way we’re going to get traction. So encourage everyone to participate in whatever way you can. So we can stop distribution of intimate images without consent.
Anne: Absolutely, I want to give women hope in their personal lives. That’s why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. You can learn more by clicking that link. It helps women take tiny steps. Just one step at a time. Because this whole situation, especially if you’re facing it in your own home, is so overwhelming. With our community, I envision that women are becoming safe in their own homes.
They are becoming an army of healthy women across the world. Who are helping other women get to emotional, psychological, and sexual safety as well. And the idea of that gives me hope when things seem really dark.
Laila: I love the fact that this audience for this podcast is like an army of women. Who are so passionate about this issue because they’ve experienced the hurt of it themselves. And they can empathize and just come at it from a place of such a real motivation. For ending something that you personally experienced in your own life. And can use that energy and passion to help stop this from happening in the future to others. Love what you’re doing in your community.
Anne: Thank you. And we’re so grateful for you and what you do again. To learn more about Laila’s organization, go to justicedefensefund.org.
Boundaries With Your Emotionally Abusive Husband: A How To
Oct 18, 2022
Here’s how to set boundaries with your emotionally abusive husband.
One of the first steps is to discover which of the 19 different emotional abuse tactics he may be using. To do that, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: How To Set Boundaries With Your Emotionally Abusive Husband
Anne: Many of you are still being gaslit or emotionally abused in your home, the situation is very hard. My prayers are going out to you. During this time, and always Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are up and running. We have multiple sessions a day. Unlimited live sessions per month. Our coaches are amazing. Attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, you can get to know each of our coaches and see who you relate with.
If group works for you, stay as long as you want. If you feel like you could benefit from individual sessions, see which coach you relate with the best. Check out the session schedule, and you can attend the next session. Which is usually within a few hours. We welcome you, we’re here. And we’re live, we’re honored to have you. We love it when women can feel our support and love face to face online.
Today I’m going to talk about boundaries with your emotionally abusive husband. Because so many women wonder, how do I set boundaries? The purpose of a boundary is to protect you from harm. If the boundary does not protect you from harm. It’s not a good boundary. Or not a boundary at all.
The reason why so many women are confused about boundaries is because traditionally, therapists and other experts set up boundaries this way. You state what you will or will not accept. So you’ll say something like, I will not accept pornography in my home or I will not be lied to. And that is your “boundary.”
Problems with Traditional Boundary Setting
Anne: And then if the boundaries with your husband are crossed, you have to enforce your boundary. That pattern of boundary and then a violation, and then you have to enforce your boundary or then you have to hold your boundary, is problematic. That is what so many therapists or coaches teach, and it is not working for a lot of women. If that model works for you, shine on, right? Keep using it.
But if you’ve been taught that model and you’re like, this is hard. I “set the boundary.” I said, I won’t be lied to, or I won’t be treated this way, or I will not allow this in my house. And then it gets violated. Then you’re like, what do I do now?
If you’re in that boat, I want to teach you a new model for boundaries that is way more practical and makes a lot more sense. So instead of thinking of a boundary as something that you will not tolerate, I want you to think of a boundary as the actual physical or mental thing that protects you from the harm. So if you’re not protected from emotional abuse from your husband, think in your mind, I don’t have a boundary yet.
Because the whole point is to protect you from harm. If you’re not protected, then what? Statements like, you cannot treat me this way, or I will not allow this in my home are just statements. They cannot keep you safe. With a coach or therapist, if you’re doing “boundary work” and making a list of things you will or won’t tolerate, you’re not making a list of boundaries.
A Better Model For Boundaries
Anne: What you are making a list of is safety issues. As you make that safety list, you can write down, I don’t feel safe with someone who lies to me. I don’t feel safe with someone who grooms me through being kind to me when they want to have sex. That is not a list of boundaries. That is a list of safety issues. What matters is that you understand what the safety issues are. You can state a safety issue, but you cannot state a boundary.
Boundaries with your abusive husband are actions. It could just be a mental action, you close your eyes. For example, blocking someone on your phone actually stops them from calling you, texting you or harassing you. Can they call from another number or a blocked number? Yes, they can. But if you make a boundary that you will never answer a number that you don’t recognize, they’ll have to leave a message.
And are they going to leave a verbally abusive message? They might. And then you can block that number. And you can just continue to block numbers. If he continues to lie and manipulate, saying, I won’t talk to him, doesn’t keep you safe. Because every conversation he can lie and manipulate you. Blocking him on your phone, blocking his email, or deleting your social media accounts, that’s an actual boundary. Because it literally protects you from the harm.
Creating More Safety Through Evolving Boundaries
Anne: That seems extreme. You could go for a smaller boundary, like every time he says something abusive, you walk out of the room, let’s say. Or every time he stonewalls, or just looks at his phone and refuses to talk to you, you get up and walk out. Does that protect you from harm? Then you can assess, okay, I set these boundaries with my emotionally abusive husband, which means you actually took action.
So let’s say he’s verbally harassing you in the car, and you turn and look out the window and he stops talking. Did that protect you from harm? The answer to that might be, yeah, it did. He stopped in that moment, great. You can say, okay, that’s a good boundary. I’m going to continue to do that. And as they escalate their abuse, you can escalate your boundaries.
People who don’t know anything about abuse will tell you to tell the perpetrator about the boundary. You actually don’t have to tell your perpetrator at all. This thing where you have to tell the perpetrator, my boundary is no exploitative material in the house. And if you do it in the house, I will ask you to move out. I think that’s completely backwards. If they use it in your house, you don’t have to tell them upfront or decide beforehand. If it happens, you don’t have to give them notice.
Functioning, responsible, mature adults don’t need to be told. If you lie to me, I feel unsafe, so I’ll set a boundary. A functioning adult and mature person would know. The things we want them to do, be honest, not manipulate, not look at exploitative material, not cheat. So then a woman wouldn’t have to figure out if they should stay married after infidelity.
Boundaries Don’t Need An Explanation
Anne: These are basic skills that adults should know. It’s not your responsibility to explain it. If someone tries to make you feel like it is, that’s simply manipulation. To try and get you to communicate with someone who’s not safe enough to communicate with. You can take action and create a barrier to keep you safe, whether he understands it or not.
You don’t have to tell him what it’s for, you don’t have to explain it. So you can be safe. And if he gets it, he gets it. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t. It’s not your responsibility to try and explain it to him.
I read the scriptures this morning, where it talks about the end times. It said, “For the time speedily cometh, that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked he will destroy and he will spare his people. Even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire and righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins and faithfulness, the girdle of his reins.”
So this division, where the unhealthy are separated from the healthy, is prophesied throughout the scriptures. I did a podcast about boundaries and New Testament scriptures that bring up boundaries. So if you’re a woman of faith and think, well, wait a minute. This lack of communication or separation feels bad. My church doesn’t teach this, isn’t true. There’s evidence throughout the scriptures of the last days that there will be a great division between the wicked and the righteous.
Separating Yourself From Harm
Anne: If you’re seeing wickedness or unhealthiness in your own home. And you’re realizing, I need to separate myself from this. It’s like quarantine. If you have a virus, it’s a public health issue, and you need to stay separated from people who don’t. So you don’t get them sick. Separating yourself from the harm is important, otherwise, you’re going to be harmed. There’s no other way to protect yourself other than separating yourself from it.
So, setting boundaries with your husband is a protective barrier. If you’re in a discussion and they’re not speaking to you with respect, the boundary would actually be walking out of the room. Because if you keep engaging with someone who is harming you, even if you keep telling them, please don’t do this, please stop. But they keep doing it, and you don’t leave, you’ll continue to be harmed. What are you going to do to feel safe in that event?
Women Share Their Experience Setting Boundaries With Their Emotionally Abusive Husband
Anne: And she said, “Well, every time I see him, I’m so triggered that I feel unsafe, so my boundary is that I’m gonna stay with my mom.”
Here’s another one from our community members. She just found out last month that her husband watched exploitative material almost daily or every other day. Of course, all he could say was he was sorry. And she said, “I know he’s sorry, but how does that change anything?” And so my response was, what boundaries would help you feel safe in your own home? Would you feel safer if you slept in another room? Like what actions can you take to protect yourself?
Another example, he lied to you, and then you don’t talk to him. Because if he talks to you, he lies to you. The only way to protect yourself from the injuries his lies cause is not to talk to him anymore. There’s no other way to do it. There’s no way to get him to stop lying. The only thing you can do is separate yourself from someone who is lying.
So to recap, a boundary is a protective barrier. I want to hear your comments and questions. I want to hear your thoughts. You can also comment on this podcast episode below. I always respond to those comments there.
The Truth About What Bible Says About Narcissistic Abuse
Oct 11, 2022
If you’re wondering, “What does the bible say about narcissistic abuse?” Here’s a list of scriptures that will help you know what to do next.
To know if you’re one of the 19 different types of narcissistic abuse, take our free emotional abuse test.
Transcript: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?
Anne: I am honored to have Leslie Vernick on today’s episode. Welcome, Leslie. We will talk about what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse.
Leslie: Thanks Anne for having me. I’m so excited to be part of your podcast today. It’s been a personal journey to figure out what God’s word really says. Can you break up with somebody as a Christian, or are you obligated to be in a relationship with a narcissistic abuser for the rest of your life? And so I’ve had to personally struggle with those questions. And work to get rid of the guilt and learn to do what God says.
As Christian women, we’re taught James 3:2. We all struggle in many ways, we’re all broken, we all fail, and so who am I to say your sin is worse than mine? Who am I to judge your actions as abusive? And traditionally in the church, we have not even allowed the categories of sexual abuse or narcissistic abuse in marriage. It’s only if he hits you. Maybe it can be considered abuse, but probably you deserved it.
You aggravated him, pushed his buttons or triggered him. And so maybe you should stop doing that. He wouldn’t hit you.
Anne: Many people think when we say the word safety, that we’re talking about, he doesn’t punch you in the face. But we’re talking about emotional safety. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse?
Leslie: I love that the Bible actually talks about the importance of safety, especially in marriage. The verse in Proverbs 31 where it says her husband trusts her to do him good, not harm all the days of his life. That is safety. That’s the rock bottom foundation. And so safety is an important quality to God in relationships.
Common Lies & Misconceptions
Leslie: He created our bodies to react negatively if we’re unsafe. So that we go to safety. But his lies, I’ll just give you some of the most common ones. It’s my fault he acts this way. So if only I were more sexual, adventurous, quieter, more submissive, more beautiful, had bigger boobs or whatever it is. It’s somehow her fault. I just need to try harder. I’m not loving him enough. I’m not doing enough to make this relationship work.
God hates divorce. I married him for better, for worse, and suffering and sacrifice are Christian virtues that I must embrace to keep my family together. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? And that’s a lot of theology, but I think that’s common in women of faith. Whether it’s the Catholic faith or the evangelical Christian faith. Church tell us it’s somehow our duty. And virtuous to sacrifice ourselves to keep our family together.
Anne: So many abusers accuse their victim of being unsafe for them. Like if you were safe enough, I would tell you the truth. But you shame me, and all it is is manipulation. And so that confuses the victim, because she’s like, am I not safe enough? How can I become more “safe” for this man who says it’s my fault he’s not treating me well?
Leslie: Well, he’s going to use this language that he’s going to hear in the therapeutic environment of safety. But he will twist it. So what he’s saying is, if I don’t have a carte blanche to do what I want, it’s somehow her fault. Life doesn’t work that way. But that’s the mindset of the abusers.
Manipulation & Gaslighting
Leslie: Of course, it’s not safe for me to tell you the truth, because I’m going to get in trouble and have consequences. It’s not harmful to hold someone accountable, or to expect them to tell you the truth. When the doctor says, I have bad news for you. You have lung cancer. You have liver cancer. He’s not telling us that to harm us. He’s telling us to help us.
If you tell your husband, your pornography use is ruining my attraction to you, or your pornography use is not okay with me. I don’t want my husband preferring women on the internet to his own wife. When he cheats on you and he lies to you, that’s harming you and your marriage is a big difference.
Anne: Another word for harm is abuse in that context.
Leslie: Yes.
Anne: The pornography addiction recovery movement, they have this whole thing around, don’t shame him. Be safe for him to tell you. They’re putting all the pressure for him to feel good about himself on her. When he doesn’t feel good about himself. Because of what he does and the choices he makes.
Leslie: You’re absolutely right, Anne. If she’s muzzled and not allowed to share the impact of how that’s harmed her, because it hurts his feelings or upsets him.
Anne: All it is is manipulation. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? It talks about safety and departing from wickedness.
Leslie: Exactly, and then what happens is the woman starts to feel like, what’s wrong with me that I can’t get over this? What’s wrong with me that I don’t want to kiss him anymore?
Living Free Workshop: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?
Leslie: What’s wrong with me that he gives me the creeps? I’m a bad person, so she starts to assume that shame.
Anne: And that’s exactly what he wants, because then he can continue to exploit her. And so I wrote the Living Free Workshop as an alternative to communicating with someone who will use your communication to manipulate you further. To learn more, click on that link.
Leslie: Absolutely, his work is to decide what kind of man he wants to be.
Anne: Yes, I went through that myself, and observed from a safe distance. That was painful for me to sit back and watch those decisions be made. And think, wow, that is who he is and who he’s choosing to be.
Leslie: Yes, the most important thing is to focus on getting as healthy and strong as possible. So you’re not clinging to him like a beggar saying, please love me and please don’t leave me. And I’m too scared to be on my own. That you’re becoming the person your kids need, and that you’re going to like at the end of the day.
No woman gets married with the idea that I’m going to get divorced, especially people of faith. What does the Bible say about divorce? That for better or worse, the covenant and sanctity of marriage are all important values that we hold dear. However, when there’s no safety, the marriage relationship is dead, even if you stay legally married. And it’s sad, and it’s awful, but we need a death certificate so that we can move on. God acknowledges that in the scriptures.
The Reality Of Unsafe Marriages
Leslie: What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? In Malachi, it says I hate when a man trades his wife in for a younger model. I hate when you treat your wife treacherously. God hates that patriarchal culture of those days. But I think God is aware that you can’t make a relationship work with everybody. Even Jesus, who was perfect, couldn’t make his relationship with Judas work. Judas went and did what he wanted to do.
Anne: I had an epiphany about the three temptations of Christ when Satan’s like, throw yourself off a building. And I think he was tempting him with contention. I don’t think he was actually tempting him with throwing himself off a building. And if I had been in that scenario, I’d be like, Satan, you’re so stupid. Why would I throw myself off a building? And I would completely fall into the temptation of an argument.
Leslie: The interesting thing about that whole temptation is that Satan used scripture. And I think this is important for your audience Anne, because people, pastors, your mother, your father, your husband will use scripture to try to get you confused.
Jesus used scripture back to Satan. And that’s why it’s so important for us to know what God says about these things, because we can get spiritually abused. Narcissistic abusers use scripture to manipulate you. But the message Jesus is giving people is to empower them not to lose their dignity in a humiliating situation where someone’s trying to destroy your dignity.
Verbal & Emotional Abuse
Leslie: What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? The Bible is clear about certain kinds of abuse. In Colossians and Ephesians, Paul talks about abusive speech. Let no abusive speech come out of your mouth. James talks about abusive speech. It talks about reckless words pierced like a sword. And Proverbs talks about the damage of a relational betrayal. Psalms says your insults have broken my heart, and I am distraught.
So there’s a huge impact of verbal abuse on someone’s soul, spirit, and body. Any kind of abuse, chronic adultery and anger addictions are not marriage problems. They cause marriage problems, but they’re individual issues, and marriage counseling can’t solve them. When you have a husband who blames you for when he does those things, and then you go to counseling, and somehow you’re supposed to fix him and keep him from acting out in those abusive ways.
Women should understand narcissistic abuse. Whenever another person controls you, where you are no longer free to say, no, I don’t like this. Or this is what I want, or this is what I don’t want, or this is who I am, and this isn’t who I am. When someone’s trying to objectify you into someone in their image, instead of helping you become who you’re supposed to be. That is very destructive to your growth and character as a person.
But also when someone is totally indifferent to your needs, your wants, your cares, your hurts. And they’re just living for themselves, it’s saying to you, you don’t matter. You don’t matter at all. You’re married to someone who says you don’t matter.
Objectification In Relationships: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?
Leslie: So it’s a relationship of object to person, like my cell phone. I love my cell phone as long as it does whatever I want, right? But, if my cell phone should say, I’m not going to work today because I’m tired. I’m like, get rid of this cell phone. I’ll find another cell phone, right? Because when you have an objective relationship with someone, you might say you love it, as long as it completely meets your needs.
But once it stops meeting your needs, it is disposable. And so many women are in these relationships with narcissistic men who objectify them. As long as you revolve your whole life around making me happy and making my life easy. And never cross me, and never disagree with me, and never bother me or ask me for anything. Just give, give, give to me. I’ll be somewhat nice to you. But if you ever want something that I have to sacrifice for you, forget it.
It’s not going to happen. And somehow they’re supposed to keep this relationship going when a healthy relationship requires mutuality and reciprocity. Women long for their husband to value them, but what I say is that the person who has to value you right now is you. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? It says every living thing is important to God.
Documenting & Recognizing Gaslighting
Leslie: You encourage people to document to help them see that they’re being gaslighted. Because they can go back and say, wait a minute yesterday or two days ago, two weeks ago, he did say this. And he did say he would do this, and now he’s saying he never said it. But he did say it, because I remember writing it down. And I can prove to myself, even though I’m not going to convince him.
He’s going to lie and cover up and tell me I’m nuts, but I’m documenting my own sanity so that I can see that this is gaslighting or crazy making. Facts are really, really helpful. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? God calls us to live in truth and reality. That’s why the patterns are so important for you to pay attention to.
Let me just give you a quick illustration. I was teaching my pastors at my church, I said, okay, so let’s say someone was texting and they crashed into your car. And pulled out of the parking lot. They weren’t paying attention. And they jumped out of the car. They said, pastor, I am so sorry I crashed into your car and it was an accident. I didn’t mean it, but you know, the Bible says love covers a multitude of sins.
And love keeps no record of wrongs. And I’m so glad you’re the pastor, because I know you’ll forgive me, bye. All the pastors laughed and they said, We would never let that happen. I said, and so let’s say he did it next Sunday and the Sunday after that. Even if you were gracious the first Sunday, and he kept doing it over and over again, you’d say, do not come back to this church.
Christian Teachings & Misinterpretations
Leslie: But our Christian teaching said, your husband can act like the devil, but you’re supposed to pretend like he’s Superman. Like you’re supposed to praise him, encourage him, and build him up. And never say, wait a minute, you’re acting like a fool. I’m not doing this. So a husband can drive a family straight off the cliff. And a wife is supposed to submit, smile, and trust God. That’s just not reality, nor does God ask her to do that.
And so they feel entitled. Especially in marriage, I’m entitled to sex whenever I want. It doesn’t matter how I treated you. Your body is not your own, and they’ll use scripture to confuse a woman. I’m entitled to get out of consequences because you have to forgive me. I’m entitled to have my cake and eat it too. And I’m entitled to hurt you. That’s why it’s so crazy that betrayal trauma counselors would involve a wife.
It’s not possible, it’s impossible. Even if you wanted to. Let’s say your husband is a diabetic. And you feel sorry for him, and you want to help him manage his diabetes. So you’re gonna cook right, and you’re gonna buy all the right food, and you’re gonna do everything. And, you know, count his carbs and do all that, and you see him on the couch eating Doritos and donuts. You can’t make someone do what they don’t want to do.
Anne: He lies to manipulate you so you think, of course he doesn’t want to act like this. He’s an addict, broken and experienced childhood abuse. He’s a really good guy. He doesn’t want to do this. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? It says tell the truth.
Entitlement & Manipulation: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?
Anne: He just keeps doing it accidentally or something. Like, I don’t know. You’re trying to figure it out. He wants you to believe he doesn’t want to do it. And that he’s fighting demons or struggling. That’s the mark of a truly manipulative man is that he continues to do the behavior while making you think he doesn’t want to do it. If he didn’t want to do it, he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. Like, have you ever solicited a prostitute? No, because you didn’t want to.
Leslie: When he’s sorrowing like that, when he’s, Oh, I’m so horrible and blah, blah, listen to what he’s sorrowing about. Because usually it’s not about who he is. It’s not like he’s saying, I’ve been a liar. I’ve been a cheater. I don’t want to be that kind of man. I want to be a good husband. He’s not saying that. What he’s saying is, I can’t believe you’ll leave me. I’ll be all by myself. How am I going to make it without you? I’m not going to have my …
He’s sorrowing over the consequences. He’s not sorrowing over his character. So that would be one big red flag that would help you discern where he’s at. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? There’s this interesting story in the Old Testament, where Naaman had leprosy, and was told Elisha could cure him of his leprosy, he was not a Jew. he goes to Elisha’s house And he bangs on the door, and Elisha doesn’t even answer the door.
He says, man of Israel, come out and help me. I have leprosy. The King of Israel told me that you would heal me.
Victim Blaming
Leslie: He said, go wash yourself in the Jordan River. Dip yourself seven times. He didn’t even open the door. And Naaman was outraged. How dare he talk to me this way? Who is he think he is?
Anne: Elijah’s like, I’m not going to subject myself to leprosy. I’m not opening the door until he doesn’t have leprosy.
Leslie: Why not open the door? Why is this such a big deal to you? This is just marriage, exactly how things go. This is exactly how men treat women. Don’t get so upset over it. Don’t get your knickers in a knot. Men watch pornography. Just let them do it. That’s what they’re going to do, right? Men will be men. Men will cheat. I mean, I’ve heard that so many times.
I had a client once whose husband sexually molested her daughter and all her little friends at her birthday party. They were like six years old, and it was horrible. He was the youth pastor, was arrested, had a trial and everything. And put in jail, and his parents still blamed her. Like, you’ve made this all up. You’ve vilified our son. You’ve ruined his career.
Anne: Uchhh, that’s awful. I hear stories like that frequently. Victims are trying to get help, they’re doing the right thing by going for help. But they don’t anticipate that a pastor, friend or family member is not going to help them, in fact is going to hurt them.
Which is why strategy is so important. So before you do anything, make sure you check out the strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, because that will help you how to get to safety strategically. So that the helping people you go to don’t harm you in the process.
Examples From The Bible
Leslie: Part of it in the Christian world anyway is that we have made an idol out of marriage. That we value marriage above the safety and sanity of the people in the marriage. When a woman begins to say, I don’t want this, that can seem rebellious in a conservative Christian family. How dare you break up the family? She hasn’t broken the family up. She’s just exposed the truth.
What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Ephesians, says, do not cover over the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It’s like pulling a blanket off of a ground with roaches underneath. Nobody wants to see that. So just leave it, leave it alone. It’s ugly. You talk about this clash of values and the interesting thing about it is God himself has a clash of values. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? In the Bible, for example, in the 10 commandments, it says, thou shalt not lie. So that’s one of God’s highest values. It’s in the 10 commandments.
And yet when Rahab lied to keep the Israelite spies safe from the people from her own land, seeking to kill them. She lied. She said they went that way when they were really hiding in another place. God commended her, saved her life. And actually, she’s in the Hebrew’s hall of fame as an amazing woman. So there’s a safety value God has. Another example, God says his value is that we should obey and submit to our authorities.
So here we have two examples. One in the Old Testament, one in the New Testament, where King Saul was David’s authority, and yet Saul was treacherous.
Getting To Safety: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?
He was trying to kill David because he was jealous of him. And David fled. He didn’t say, Now, David, trust me and stay put and suffer and sacrifice, and I’ll keep … No! He said, Get out of Dodge! And David did. And when baby Jesus was under Herod’s authority, and Herod sought to kill all the babies under the age of two.
God woke Joseph up in a dream. He didn’t say, now Herod’s going to try to kill baby Jesus, but just stay put and I’ll keep you all safe. He said, flee. And the Bible says the prudent see danger and take refuge.
Leslie: So this hierarchy of values, you can’t stay healthy, be healthy, get healthy, or provide healthy for your children. If you’re living in fear and terror all the time. And so safety is an important value to God. And it’s not wrong for you to create safety. Our brain has two channels. One is safety and one is growth. And if the safety channel is hijacked because you are in an unsafe environment, you’re not worried about growth when you’re worried about your safety.
You’re just worried about safety. And so children who grow up in an environment where there’s a lot of turmoil, screaming, and lack of safety. Their growth channel of learning and maturing, and all that is shut down because safety comes first. And so we have to recognize it. Safety, physical safety, emotional safety, financial safety, sexual safety, spiritual safety. These are important values to God, and we do not have to be apologetic or ashamed for taking them to heart in our own life.
Anne: What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Yeah, getting to safety is what God wants for us.
Strategic Responses To Abuse
Anne: He says over and over in the scriptures that we need to separate ourselves from wickedness. Touch, not the unclean things, stuff like that. We’re commanded to separate ourselves from wickedness. If we choose to divorce to create safety in our lives, God is proud of us. That does provide a layer of safety. Because they’re not living in your space.
It can provide a layer of financial safety in some ways. In some ways, you’re less financially safe, obviously, but it doesn’t stop him from continuing to abuse you, especially through the court system. And we’ve covered this on so many episodes.
Leslie: Yeah, what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Jesus says to his disciples to be as shrewd as serpents, but as innocent as doves. In other words, he’s saying there will be some people who will be out there to harm you, and you better be shrewd about that. The narcissist or the abuser will try to pull you into it. The more he can make you look bad, the more ammo he has against you with your children.
And this is such an important part to stay clear, don’t get into arguments or defend yourself with them. Don’t get into long explanations. Don’t get into trying to understand each other. It’s not going to work in marriage. It’s not going to work in divorce. Because if it becomes boring for him to interact with you, because he’s not getting anything out of it, then he might not do it as much.
Avoiding Contention
Leslie: But if he can provoke you, especially in front of your kids or someone else, and make you look like a bad guy and make him look like the victim, he’s going to do it as much as possible. So be strategic. Get some coaching on how to be strategic. If you’ve been married to a narcissist or narcissistic abuser. Understand they have two high values. One is always to be right. And one is to always win. So pick your battles. Because they will fight you on the littlest thing to win.
So don’t show your cards, and if you don’t show what matters to you, they can’t try to win because they don’t know. So it’s better for you to stay more silent and not say, I want the kids for Christmas this year. Or this is important to me. Because as soon as you let him know that, he will try to hurt you with that. So keep your cards close to your vest, and don’t share a whole lot, and be strategic.
So that they think they’re winning and you get what you need, which is peace and quiet and not being attacked all the time. And that will take some coaching and strategy. And when you’re part of a group of other women, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, you see smart, talented, beautiful women who have also been rejected. Who have also been abused. You’re starting to say, wait a minute, this isn’t my problem. This isn’t our problem as a woman. It’s a problem in the culture. It’s a problem with men.
Support & Community
Leslie: And I’m not going to feel the shame of his sin anymore. Because I have other women who I see are just as hurt and as normal. And just as talented and beautiful as they can be. Their husband still did this to them. And so it helps detoxify, I think, the shame of what their husband has done.
Anne: Yeah, it’s true. Knowing other incredible women helped me feel better. And what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Because I thought, okay, this has nothing to do with me. And just like Leslie said, strategy is so important. So check out The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop at this link. Leslie, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse today.
Leslie: Thanks, Anne, being with you is my pleasure.
Strategies For Divorcing An Abusive Husband With Wendy Hernandez
Oct 04, 2022
Are you considering divorcing an abusive husband? If you feel overwhelmed at the thought of hiring a lawyer or fighting for custody? To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
Hiring An Attorney When Divorcing An Abusive Husband
Abuse and betrayal victims may feel daunted and overwhelmed at the idea of interviewing and hiring an attorney. Here are some helpful tips for choosing an attorney when divorcing an abusive husband:
Interview more than one attorney
Make sure your attorney understands narcissism and post-separation abuse
Choose an attorney that will fight for you, but not stir the pot
Make sure that you understand your attorneys fees from the get-go
Select an attorney that you feel comfortable and safe with
Victims can enlist trusted friends to help them in the attorney selection process. This is not a decision that needs to be rushed and women can trust their intuition through the process.
Find Healthy Ways To Work Through The Trauma While Divorcing An Abusive Husband
Get the emotional help you need, so your attorney can help you. When women try to navigate the legal system while carrying heavy burdens of trauma and living in constant fight-or-flight mode, they may have trouble making decisions. Emotionally-based decisions tend to muddy the waters and make it difficult for victims to think strategically.
Victims can choose to process their trauma and express their emotions in safe and consistent ways by joining support groups, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, so that when it’s time to focus on the legal aspect of their situation, they can give it their full attention.
Divorcing An Abuser 101: Understand “Best Interest Factors”
When working through a custody battle, it’s important that victims understand the concept of “best interest factors” – or, what the courts will be considering as the important issues that determine who the children should be spending their time with.
Wherever you are in your journey to healing, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here for you.
Custody battles, divorce, and discovering a partner’s infidelity are all life-altering, traumatic experiences. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions offers the support that you need as you navigate this trying time. Join today and find the community that you deserve.
Transcript: Divorcing An Abusive Husband
Anne: I have Wendy Hernandez on today’s episode. Wendy is a courtroom lawyer who has tackled every type of family law matter from divorce to child custody, to everything in between. Welcome Wendy.
Wendy: Thank you, Anne. It’s wonderful to be here.
Anne: So many of our listeners are just finding out about their husband’s abuse, their husband’s pornography use, or his double life. And they’re starting to wrap their head around the fact that they might be in an abusive relationship. So we have that segment of listeners. Then we have a segment of listeners who are now looking back on their marriage post divorce. They’re like, whoa, I didn’t realize that all the stuff that happened to me is an example of emotional abuse.
Those women, when it comes to the law, are most concerned about upcoming custody issues that have happened since the divorce. Let’s first talk to that first demographic of women who are just coming out of the fog of abuse. Maybe some of them are thinking, can I stay in this marriage? They’re maybe starting to think about divorce.
To those women, what types of things are important for them? As they’re considering, should I considering steps toward divorcing an abusive husband?
Wendy: Yes, so first and foremost, you have to think about your safety and the safety of your children. And I know that many women feel guilty about leaving marriages for spiritual reasons. What is at risk is your life and the lives of your children. If you have children. When they’re in these relationships that are not only life threatening, but soul crushing.
Emotional & Psychological Safety Strategies
Wendy: If you are in danger, start preparing to get out. I wouldn’t say get out until you’ve put some thought into it, until you have a plan in place, and you have some safe people that you can rely upon to help you get through this, because you will need the support from an emotional standpoint. So first and foremost, use Anne and the resources she has available to determine whether you’re safe or not.
Anne: Yeah, she’s talking about The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, which helps women determine their husband’s character, to see how safe he is. And then we’ll give you emotional and psychological safety strategies, both in terms of setting boundaries, but also how to communicate so that you can protect your emotions no matter what stage you’re in.
Challenges Divorcing An Abuser
Even if you’re never going to consider divorcing an abusive husband, they will still help you emotionally. They’ll still help you get to emotional and psychological safety.
Wendy: If you decide you’re not safe or your children are not safe, then it’s time to leave. I want to share a story about a potential client I met with last week. She had just wanted to get through the divorce, and her attorney at the time really pressured her. Let’s just get through this. And as a result, she agreed to joint custody of her children. So fast forward about a year later, and the abuse is getting worse. It’s affecting the children. He’s starting to direct it towards them.
Her attorney was a man, but essentially he encouraged her to sweep the abuse under the rug. This is an example of how divorcing an abusive husband can be complicated. You have to be in alignment with what you know to be the truth. That may mean you have to stand up to people you think are actually on your side.
Legal & Financial Abuse In Divorce
Wendy: Sometimes emotional abuse is legal and financial abuse that occurs while divorcing an abusive husband. The abuser says, you know, if you persist. Then I’m going to bleed you financially. So it can also turn into a type of scorched earth litigation, where it goes on for not just months, but years. And everything is destroyed in the process. So, whoever’s going through this, they have to evaluate what makes sense for them.
Because if everything’s destroyed, if all bank accounts are destroyed. Or you lose your friends and family, which sometimes can happen with emotional abusers. They tend to get into the heads of people we love and convince the friends and family that the victim is actually the crazy one. It’s hard for me to tell people how to navigate that without knowing the circumstances of each individual case, but you just got to know what can happen.
Anne: Let’s talk about the injustices of that situation. So many victims are just horrified when they find out they need to compromise with their abuser. And I just want to say out loud and acknowledge that it isn’t fair, it’s not okay, and it shouldn’t be the case. But because it is the case, can we talk about how victims can maybe reframe it. Because it’s really, really devastating. Like I’m never going to get help, no one’s ever going to help me. This is how abusers gaslight the victim and the system.
Wendy: Yeah, the judiciary needs a lot of education, especially when it comes to emotional abuse. I believe, and you probably agree, that it is the least recognized form of abuse. Judges usually only sit up and notice when there’s physical abuse and doctor’s reports.
Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Healing & Moving On
Wendy: There’s this saying I like to tell my clients, and that is, do you want to be right or do you want to be done? And again, you have to find that balance between the truth and moving on with your life. Because I feel like true healing begins when you can do this initial separation. If it’s a physical or legal separation from the abuser, and then less burdened and more able to get on with the healing.
The longer you’re enmeshed in this litigation, you’re just embroiled in it, and it’s hard to move on. It’s hard to heal when constantly getting messages from an attorney or ex about whatever legal matters are pending. Or when you’re having to go to court. So, there’s a lot to be said for healing.
https://youtube.com/shorts/P9gSfGR_3R4
And I feel like when somebody can throw off the shackles by finally divorcing an abusive husband, they can fly. They can become more than they’ve ever imagined. I believe their potential is unlimited, but while that oppressor is still involved in every aspect of their life and still controlling them, it’s hard to get to that place.
Anne: Yeah, women wonder how long it will take to heal from emotional abuse and healing cannot happen until we can protect ourselves. Let’s talk about post separation abuse and how that affects women. When people think, I’ll help this victim escape this abusive marriage. And then everything will be fine. And they don’t realize that divorce does not solve abuse. Sometimes, it can escalate the abuse through either legal abuse, or abusing the kids.
Many women are horrified. They think, Oh, he’s a good guy. I think the divorce will go okay. Then it gets worse during the divorce. And then it’s even worse after the divorce. So can you talk about post separation abuse?
Keeping Communications In Writing
Wendy: It’s fairly common sense, but many people forget about it, so it bears repeating here. And that is, if you can, keep all your communications in writing with the abusive ex. You may not have had those communications prior to separation, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be. You should be for your own protection, for the protection of your kids. And when you’re divorcing an abusive husband, he will try to bend the rules, get the survivor to do what he wants.
And use the children as pawns in this game. So keeping communications professional and to the point and centered on the children is important. When you end up in court again, and I say when, because it’s probably going to happen if you’re dealing with an abuser. So the documentation is key. There are certain programs available. One’s called Our Family Wizard.
And these programs help keep track of the communications. A judge can even access the communications if the judge wants to, to look at what’s been going on between the parties. So where somebody may not have had documentation prior to separation or divorce. They can have plenty of documentation after.
And I’ve had many victims of abuse who have used those post separation communications to gain an advantage in a post divorce lawsuit regarding custody of the children. So documentation is key. Avoid verbal communication, verbal contact with the abuser because they will make promises they will not keep, they will say things were said that were not said.
And as you know, because they are so charming and they’re so convincing, there are many cases where the judge believes them. So just keep it in writing. That’s my best advice.
Strategic Messaging Workshop
Anne: So when women enroll in the Living Free Workshop they’ll learn how to use strategy to protect themselves. I’ve seen it happen with so many victims. Their abusers’ messages sound so nice. He says, hey, if we could just get together and talk about this, we can work it out. If you’re divorcing an abusive husband, don’t fall for this.
It is grooming or hoovering because they want to hook us back in. Then they’ll say all kinds of stuff that’s not documented. And I talk all about that in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Can you talk about the scenario where women are groomed through written communication? And that grooming manipulates them to drop their guard and talk to their abuser in person, and how you’ve seen that backfire.
Wendy: Yes, we are raising awareness of this right now, it happens all the time. To the victim, survivor out there, do not drop your guard. You know this person, and you know how they can flip. You know how they can turn, and they’re not going to change after the divorce is over. So don’t let down your guard. You have to maintain your resolve. And keep those communications in writing.
I don’t see any reason why all communication should not be in writing, and I would never let down the guard. The abuser could go a few years and not do anything offensive. You let down your guard. And then boom, they smack you. So it’s important to you and your children not to let down the guard and keep it all in writing, because it does backfire.
Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Court Perception Of Communication
Anne: How do the courts see that scenario? So for example, if an abuser said, hey, I’ve been trying to talk to her. I keep sending her these emails, and then he shows the judge the emails. And in the emails he’s like, why can’t we talk? Why can’t we work it out? How do judges see those types of communications?
Wendy: So I think judges have a problem when a person is not responding at all, and I would say never do that. Especially if the abuser is emailing, hey, there’s this issue with the kids, and let’s try to work it out. Always respond to those. I’ve seen people get into trouble where they completely shut down. That’s normal. It happens. You know, you have PTSD, and there are ways to respond without having to respond. We’ve talked about that, Anne.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. Those are the strategies I teach in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It’s a way of responding that protects you. It protects your emotions, but also protects you and your kids during the process of divorcing an abuser.
Wendy: Yes, and I’ve had somebody lose custody of their children before. Because the judge said, listen, people share joint custody when they can co-parent, but you’re not responding.
So that tells me that you cannot co-parent. Therefore, I’m giving custody to the abuser. So respond always, keep the response short. We know the abuser will go on and on for pages about whatever the issues are. And if you can, distill it down to what the real issues are, and respond very short and succinctly, and keep it on point.
Working Through Writing Messages
Wendy: But don’t ignore communications. Anne, I don’t know if you want to talk about what we discussed.
Anne: Yeah, The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies, yeah, women have seen amazing results with these strategies. It’s not legal advice, so it’s not the same as talking with an attorney or coming up with a legal strategy. But it is a communication strategy, and it works whether you’re married or divorced. Before I wrote the workshop. I didn’t know if it was a fluke, it worked for me, and would it work for other women.
So I mentored women, and we worked through writing their messages with the criteria I came up with. And all the women I worked with had great results in court. Their messages looked spotless in court. They looked like they could co-parent well. One of the women I mentored, her ex, had taken her to court five times after divorcing an abusive husband, for custody things, five times.
She told me, Anne, nothing has helped me, like The Living Free. This is a game changer. I’m going to win this case. And I don’t think he’s ever going to come after me again. I was so glad to hear that. The messages in the The Living Free workshop are actual real messages of women that I mentored. So some of them are consolidated or clarified, but these are the actual abusers messages and then the strategic messages back.
I do have a section of examples of what’s not strategic, so that women can see the difference.
Wendy: Yes, the important thing is that the lines of communication are flowing. It doesn’t matter how they’re flowing, as long as they’re flowing. If somebody’s helping a victim respond to emails and communications about the kids. As long as that communication is happening and represents what the victim and survivor wants and thinks is best for the children.
I don’t see why a judge would have a problem with that. Not responding is what I think could potentially cause a person to have issues with the court.
Anne: Is there anything else for women considering divorce when married to an abusive husband that you see them do in the beginning? Maybe they don’t realize this is a trap that’s not going to hurt me right now, but it might hurt me in five years or 10 years.
Wendy: The main thing is denying or saying, avowing that there was no abuse in the relationship. That could potentially hurt down the road.
Anne: So are you saying they don’t necessarily need to bring it up if they’re using strategy? But they should never say it didn’t happen. So they should never write an affidavit or something that says there was no abuse. Because then that will be held against them later.
Wendy: Yes, and the second thing is getting the help they need from somebody like you and the people on your team. As an attorney, I often see women making. decisions based on emotion, or they can’t make decisions because they are so emotional. And it makes the case really hard to move forward.
Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Attorneys Aren’t Trained In Emotional Abuse
Wendy: For me as an attorney, I’m not a trained professional in this area. I do my best. And most attorneys are not trained that way. And it would be amazing if all my emotionally abused clients could get the help they need. Because I think if they have self care after emotional abuse, the legal aspect of it flows a lot better. Because they’re not in the fight or flight state of mind all the time, which makes things foggy.
They can see the options available to them and make a decision based on reason. So get the emotional help you need, so your attorney can help you. If you don’t have an attorney helping you so you can see what’s available, see what’s at stake. And make a decision based on reason.
Anne: Now let’s talk to this other group of women who’ve already been through divorcing an abusive husband. Perhaps they didn’t have an attorney who understood abuse, and now it’s after the fact. So they can’t go back in time. So maybe now they’re looking for a modification or looking to solve some of their post divorce problems. What are some of the things that you see women having trouble with when they’re trying to navigate post divorce legal issues with an abuser?
Wendy: One thing that I see frequently. I’ve just had a string of cases where my clients dealt with this. The client and the children continued to have the same issues they experienced during the marriage. And so we brought this to the attention of the judge, and what the judge said is that this is no different than what you told me two years ago. There’s not been a change in circumstances. So because of that, I’m leaving things as they are.
Proving Changes In Circumstances
Wendy: So, you have to be mindful of the changes, the differences between what you went through. And now fast forward two, three, four, five years from now. And you have to distinguish what is happening now from what happened when the divorce happened. Because the judge will be looking at what changed. And even though the claims may be the same as you made during the divorce.
If you can point to, hey, the kids are having trouble in school. Or hey, the kids pediatrician thinks they need some sort of mental health counseling because of X, Y, Z. If there are changes in health, even though the base issues are the same. If you have some third party saying these issues are causing some real effects, that would be helpful.
Anne: Yeah. And we’re positioned a little differently, because you’re an attorney and they’re hiring you to help them take their ex to court. I don’t recommend they ever take their ex back to court, but instead use the Living Free Strategies.
Because court is so risky, you can lose in court more than you already have. And it gets dangerous, you know? It’s different for you, because you’re an attorney and they’re hiring you to do that. So they’ve decided they want to do that. They don’t know there’s another option. Like strategy is an option, and you can use strategy out of court.
Wendy: Yes, yes in one of the cases I had where the judge said there was no change in circumstances. The judge was looking hard for something. And one of the kids had difficulties in school. But the records didn’t reflect what the judge wanted to see.
Book Recommendation
Wendy: If there’s documentation, that’s helpful, but you need to work with your attorney when you are divorcing an abusive husband. You need to look at the rules and your jurisdiction to see what the guidelines are in terms of modifying custody, decision-making, or parenting time. If there’s a change in circumstances, be sure to prove it. Otherwise, the judge will dismiss the case. At worst, the judge could make you pay the other party’s attorney’s fees and costs, which is never good.
Anne: We’re going to take a break here for just a second. It’s so hard to find professionals who understand this type of abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and coercion. Many of you may have found an attorney that you feel good about, but they don’t get it. One option is to give them a copy of my book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. It has infographics in the back.
It helps professionals and other people understand this type of abuse in a really quick way, because it’s a picture book, and they’re way more likely to read a picture book. Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a quick, awesome read that will help bring them up to speed. There are infographics at the back.
If you click on Trauma Mama Husband Drama, it’ll send you to Amazon. Put that in your cart. And then once you’ve received it, please circle back to Amazon, give it a five star rating. Every rating on Amazon helps isolated women find us. Even if they don’t purchase the book, they may become aware, through that review. And through the things you said on Amazon of this podcast, that’s free to everyone.
Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Overwhelm & Taking Small Steps
Anne: One of the things I’ve seen with victims is they get so overwhelmed. They’re overwhelmed with, what am I going to do for money, with childcare, and because their abuser is still manipulating them and confused. And also, they’ve got other people in their life saying, you need to forgive him. Why are you doing this? They just feel so overwhelmed.
That even considering some of these legal issues, even calling several different attorneys to set up appointments for consultations to see which attorney would be good, is really hard for a victim. What questions should they ask when they have the strength to start calling around to find an attorney that’s going to work for them? Do you have any tips on that?
Wendy: Yes, all of us get overwhelmed at various points during our lives for different reasons. And I’ve found myself in places of overwhelm. There are times when I feel like I can’t talk or make a move, overwhelm just paralyzes me. And what I have found to help me when I’m overwhelmed is to stop and think about, okay, what is my goal? Short term and long term goals, what needs to be done in this situation?
And then, I chart out a few steps towards that goal. Then I take one step in the direction of that goal. It could be picking up the phone. It doesn’t necessarily have to be an attorney. But it could be to a friend or family member who’s going to help you feel brave. Make the call to the attorney eventually, tomorrow or next week, but take one step.
Arrangements With Attorneys
Wendy: All these little steps will add up. If you can commit to taking a step every day or a couple of steps every day. So that’s what helps me with overwhelm, is just breaking it down and taking a step. And not worrying about other steps that need to be taken. Or thinking if I don’t take this step, then this is going to happen, then this, and then this is going to happen, and it’s all going to crumble. Don’t think about that. Just think about the step in front of you.
As far as getting an attorney when you’re divorcing an abusive husband, referrals are a great source. And oftentimes my clients come to me because a friend referred them, or a family member, or by somebody down the line who used me in the past. So if you feel comfortable, talk to other people, ask people in the community. And if you don’t want people to know that you’re asking for yourself, have somebody ask for you.
Get an attorney who understands abuse and narcissism. There are many attorneys in the world, and there are many who advertise about abuse, but that doesn’t mean they know about it. So I would talk to them about cases they’ve had in the past, whether they’ve handled cases where there’s no physical abuse, or whether they’ve dealt with narcissists before. So ask them the right questions. Come up with the questions before you meet with the attorney.
You should also understand the financial arrangement with the attorney. Because many people aren’t clear on that, and they run out of money quickly, and they don’t know what happened. Then they’re left without an attorney at a critical part of the proceeding.
Balancing Conflict & Advocacy
Wendy: So you need to expect what the finances will look like, how long the case could potentially last, and how much money it could potentially cost, so you’re prepared. People have to get quiet and centered and feel what kind of person the attorney is. There are many attorneys out there who generate conflict because it means they’re going to make more money.
The more conflict, the more attorney fees there are, and the longer the case will last. Not all attorneys are that way. And I’m not saying you want an attorney who’s just going to lay down and be a rug. You want an attorney who’s going to fight for you, but not an attorney who’s going to intentionally stir the pot. And jack up the fees, create more conflict, and make you look bad in front of the judge because they are creating conflict.
So again, it’s a balance between the attorney who will fight for you, but one who is mindful of resources, which are almost always limited. Just really feel whether that person is a match for you. There are people who come to me sometimes, and they say, I need a junkyard dog. I know right off, that’s not a match for me, because that’s not the kind of attorney I am.
And it doesn’t mean I’m not assertive when I need to be, which is in the courtroom. And when I’m standing up for my client, but I’m just not a junkyard dog. I’m not hostile or aggressive. There are some people who want that. If you want and need that, and you go to an attorney, who’s not that. Your relationship will not go smoothly.
Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Be Patient
Wendy: I can tell you that from experience. So get clear on who you want from a personal quality and value standpoint, and look for that attorney. That attorney is out there and be patient. Don’t be afraid to interview more than one attorney. You don’t have to go with the first attorney you interview.
Anne: Thank you so much. Our listeners are super overwhelmed, but I want them to realize they need more education about this. So that they can avoid some of these long-term problems that many women in my community encounter when divorcing an abusive husband. Because they weren’t prepared, and you’re always going to run into problems that were unavoidable. So understanding the lay of the land with these legal issues is important.
Thank you, Wendy, for being on today’s episode.
Wendy: Thank you, Anne
Can You Emancipate Yourself From One Parent? – Tiffany’s Story
Sep 27, 2022
Children of divorce often wonder, “Can you emancipate yourself from one parent?” Tiffany will share the story of how she emancipated from both parents. Hopefully, her story can help any minor hoping to emancipate themselves from an abusive parent.
Fear of the abuser’s retribution against self or children
Abuse teaches women that they are not worthy of safety, kindness, or respect. Women will hold tight to everyone else’s “needs” because abuse has conditioned them to do so.
4. Will It Hurt My Children IF I Emancipate Myself From Abuse?
Mothers worry that separating themselves from abusive behaviors may harm their children. This is understandable, divorce, separation, and other safety boundaries may feel disruptive and traumatic for children.
However, no matter what the circumstances, if their mother is being abused, the children are also being abused – even if the abuser never lays a hand on them. Simply existing in a space where abuse is present is detrimental and harmful to children.
At BTR.ORG, we know that safety looks different for everyone. Some women opt for a no-contact divorce, while others choose to stay married. No matter how you emancipate yourself from abuse, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to support you, validate you, and empower you.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet multiple times a day in every time zone. Join today and find a loving community of women who understand what you are going through as you begin your journey to safety and healing.
Transcript: Can You Emancipate Yourself From One Parent?
Anne: I received a five star review the other day. She said, lifesaver for me and my child. I don’t know what I would do without this podcast. I look to it for guidance, support, and understanding. BTR seems to really know what is going on and doesn’t take BS from anyone. After living with my ex’s pornography, abuse, and sex addiction for eight years, I finally found a safe place that can empathize and explain all of the madness I’ve been living. There is no podcast quite like it. Keep doing what you are doing, BTR, and thank you.
I have Tiffany on today’s episode. She is familiar with overcoming hardships after enduring physical, mental, and sexual abuse. Tiffany emancipated from her parents at the age of 15. At the time, she was only the second case in Utah for a child of that age to become legally emancipated from her parents.
She worked three jobs to support herself through high school, became a Sterling scholar, and graduated top of her class. As a torchbearer for the 2002 Olympics, Tiffany has always determined to shine a light in dark places. Welcome Tiffany.
Tiffany: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure.
Anne: So Tiffany’s going to share a little bit about her childhood abuse and how to emancipate yourself, which is an amazing story.
And then we’re going to focus the rest of the episode on the abuses she experienced from her boyfriend, and how she didn’t realize what was going on. Then finally, she also emancipated herself from that situation. So Tiffany, let’s start with your childhood abuse. Did you understand as a child that you were a victim of abuse?
Tiffany’s Childhood Abuse
Tiffany: I think the moment I realized, was when my dad broke my arm. So an answer to that question, from my earliest memory until he broke my arm when I was six, I didn’t realize it. But then once that happened, I was like, okay, yeah, this isn’t normal. He threw me across the room, and I hit a solid wood door.
I didn’t know the word abused, obviously, at six, but I knew that what was happening couldn’t be right. My dad would never take his anger out on my mom when he was mad at my mom. He put her up on a big pedestal, so instead when he would get mad. He would pick me up off the floor from my coloring books and throw me across the room in anger in some sort of fight with my mom.
Also, he took my mom and I to my grandmother’s house for the day, because he worked a weird shift of 3 p.m. to midnight. So, when he would go to work, my mom and I would go to my grandmother’s house, my mom’s mom’s house. And we were driving a 1964 Ford, which my dad still drives. And the seatbelts in that car, the reason I tell you that is the seatbelts in the car are very difficult to push the button down to undo the seatbelt.
Physical Abuse from Father
Tiffany: And my dad started yelling at me. I couldn’t get the seatbelt button to go down. My dad broke my arm. And I’m saying, I can’t do it, and I’m crying, and he’s getting pissed off at me. Finally, he releases the seat belt. Basically yanks me out of the car, throws me to my mom, and my mom and I go inside my grandmother’s house.
And my grandmother’s like, you know, I’m bawling, my arm looks crazy, my mom’s trying to say, oh, it’s nothing, it must be a sprain. And my grandmother’s like, no, this isn’t a sprain, we need to take her to the hospital right now. So they ended up taking me, and I remember the whole time it was my grandmother by my side, not my mother.
I don’t remember where my mother was. When they gave me the anesthetic shot to do what they needed to do to. They set my arm and put the cast on or whatever it is they did. My grandmother’s there trying to calm me down, wiping my tears, wiping my head, and telling me I’m gonna be okay.
And my dad picks us up that day at midnight. Hey dad’s here, we got to go home, and I come out with this cast on my arm. My grandfather played the organ, and I distinctively remember my dad sitting on this organ bench and saw this cast on my arm. He looked down at the ground and didn’t say anything about it.
Emancipate yourself from Manipulation & Lies
Tiffany: But the next morning my parents told me to tell everybody that I fell out of a tree. And that’s what happened to the arm. So I would walk around with this cast on and my arm behind my back. Because I didn’t want to lie to people. And I’m thinking, why are my parents asking me to say something different than what happened?
And so that was kind of my first aha moment of, okay, well. They’re asking me to lie about something that’s not true. And threatened me if I didn’t say I fell out of the apricot tree in the backyard. So it led me to believe there was something more going on that wasn’t good. So the actual word abuse? No, I don’t think I knew it was abuse as far as the word. I knew that it wasn’t right, but I was too scared to say anything.
Actually, my dad did not abuse my mom, that I know of. And I think she would probably say the same thing. The reason I say that is my mom was his princess. He put her on this pedestal, as I’ve mentioned. He gave her money to buy clothes, do her hair, and never made her work. When they got into a fight, most of what I saw was he would yell. Which was rare. Then he would come back with flowers and apologize, and he just really doted on her. It felt like I was the punching bag for when he was upset with her.
Mother’s Emotional Abuse
Tiffany: But I know my mother was emotionally abusive to me. My mom was a promiscuous woman. That’s actually how my parents got pregnant with me. She cheated on my dad a lot with people in the congregation of the church we were in.
I’d see them in bed with my mom during the week. She would say, if you say anything, I will break your face. That was her one common threat, I’ll break your face. And I didn’t know what break your face meant. But I knew I didn’t want to get hit in the face. That was already happening from Dad.
Mom would give me candies, for example. My dad loved caramels. He had this tin can of caramels he’d keep in the kitchen. And my mom would open one up, or open the tin up and say, Here, do you want one? And, you know, I’m a kid. Yeah, I want a freaking piece of candy. If you offer it to me, I’m gonna take it.
So, I’d take it and eat it. It was delicious. You know, again, my dad worked that 3 to midnight shift, and I’d be sleeping in my bed, which is in the kitchen, by the way. My bedroom was in the kitchen, growing up. The front door was at the foot of my bed. So, my dad would walk in, wake me up a little, and I’d pretend to be asleep.
And my mom would say, Tiffany stole candy today. Or, Tiffany did this, and then my dad would yank me out of bed and beat me for taking candy I wasn’t supposed to take. Yet my mom gave it to me and asked if I wanted it. So she was very manipulative in that way.
Molestation & Emancipation
Anne: You’re the second woman in Utah to legally emancipate yourself from your parents. Talk about how that went down.
Tiffany: When it started, it wasn’t meant to be an emancipate yourself thing. One of the men my mother was cheating with, my mom ended up going with him. He ended up molesting me when I was young. And molested my sister later on in life as she came along. Beause my mother did nothing to stop it with me. He was a military police officer and said, if you say anything to anybody, I’ll kill you.
Well, he’s six feet two or three, I don’t remember exactly, but he was tall and intimidating and had a temper. He was physically abusive to my mother. And so when he said, you say anything, I’ll kill you, I believed him, I kept my mouth shut. My mother, who turned to drugs once she left my father. It started with speed, and then it turned to marijuana, and then it turned to cocaine. It escalated, and now she’s still a drug addict on much heavier drugs.
I thought my mom wouldn’t protect me if I said anything anyway. And she came to me one day when I was getting ready for school and said, what’s going on? And so I told her, because I thought she would protect me if she asked about it. She basically confronted him, and we had this family discussion. He turned to her and said she’s lying. I didn’t touch her.
I didn’t molest her. Everything she’s saying is a lie. He told her she had to choose between me or him. She didn’t even hesitate two seconds.
Emancipate yourself from Living with ABUSIVE Biological Father
Tiffany: She turned to me and said, you have until tomorrow to get the bleep out of my house. At that point, I was 13, in the 8th grade. And she had a yard sale, sold my belongings in front of me, and I had basically a garbage bag full of clothes, and I had a Tootsie Roll piggy bank with some change, so I walked past her and her yard sale of my belongings.
It is still so crazy to me that she did that, but took my coins from my piggy bank and got on the UTA bus, which is our local bus system here in Utah. And lived with my biological father in Layton, the guy physically abusive to me. I just thought, I’m either homeless or living with Dad. I don’t have a lot of options. And so I took the risk and lived with Dad. Once Mom was gone and they divorced, he never touched me again.
I became a latchkey kid. Meaning I woke up and dad was gone for work, and I came home from school. Dad was still gone for work because he worked two jobs. Being 13, going through sexual abuse from my stepfather, and then not being believed and getting kicked out, basically felt like I was worth nothing. If the woman who brought me life and brought me to the planet doesn’t want me, what’s the point? And I became anorexic and suicidal, and had a lot of things I was having a hard time dealing with.
Struggles with Mental Health
Tiffany: And there was a morning I woke up and I said, today’s gonna be the day I end my life. I just don’t wanna be here anymore. I just don’t see the point.
The angel on my shoulder said, yeah, but if you kill yourself, you’re letting all this defeat you, and you’re letting them all win. You need to emancipate yourself. It wasn’t those exact words, but something along those lines. And I realized it was time to either get help or just be done with it.
And I knew that this didn’t need to define me. It was a weird, strange moment. It was very, very surreal. I reached out to a social worker and had to go through two years of therapy, to the point that I could just even look in the mirror and not be disgusted at myself and feel like an unworthy person.
At the time, I was 15. And I said, what’s next? And I knew it wasn’t good to go back with Dad. Obviously, I couldn’t go with Mom. So he mentioned foster care. And foster care was not anything I wanted to do. When Mom left Dad, we bounced around a lot, because she’d go from man to man and then return to the other man. She just couldn’t keep steady romantic relationships.
And so I went to 23 different elementary schools in a very short period. And I knew when you’re in foster care, you get bounced around a lot. Not always, but generally that’s what happens. And plus, I didn’t want to live with a strange family. I had separation issues. I had attachment issues, you know, many things, as you can see from what I went through.
Emancipation & relief
Tiffany: I said, there’s got to be something else. I don’t want to be a foster kid. And he said, well, you can emancipate yourself. I didn’t even know what that meant. He explained it to me, and he said, but I need to let you know, the odds are stacked against you.
There’s only one other case in Utah at your age that was able to at the time. And I thought, well, what’s the worst that can happen? They’re going to tell me no. And then I have to go into foster care. So, I went for it, and I was awarded, essentially, custody of myself, and became the second case in the state of Utah.
Anne: That felt scary and sad and great all at the same time kind of a thing?
Tiffany: Yeah, for sure relief, for one. My mom, she’s very vindictive, and I didn’t want her to say I was a runaway. I’d have to go into juvenile detention. So I felt relief, because I felt Mom didn’t have those chains or that hold or that control. I felt so much relief. I didn’t have to be around her, see her, which is sad. She’s my mother. She’s the reason I’m on the planet. But she’s not my mom, and I see a big difference in those two words.
So, I got emancipated right around the same time I got to run the torch in the Olympics. And that’s when I was dating Danny. I ran the torch in 2002. I met him in 2001.
Emancipate yourself: Meeting Danny
Tiffany: I’m a huge Dave Matthews fan, and so is he. A friend of mine from the singles congregation had said, Hey, Dave Matthews is coming into town. Did you see that? I’m like, Oh yeah, I saw and I want some tickets, but you know, looks like it’s going to be sold out. And he’s like, well, I can get you a ticket. And I’ve got a couple of buddies of mine coming in from out of town.
He was from Louisville, and I wanted to go. And I said, heck yeah. So I paid for the ticket, and he and his two friends came and picked me up. And one of the guys was Danny in the back seat. And I remember at that concert, he sang one of my favorite songs. Like, he was standing next to me, and it almost seemed like he was singing it in my ear. It was like this little romantic moment. You know, my favorite band, he was cute. We both loved Dave and just stayed in touch.
We had a long distance relationship, writing letters, talking on the phone. He was the first man I ever fell in love with, the man I lost my virginity to. So, like, there was a lot of attachment there. And as a surprise, he ended up, packing up his little Honda Civic and driving across the country and knocked on my door. I was renting a basement room with some other girls. And was like, surprise! I was like, you’re here, this is so awesome!
And he’s like, no, I’m moving here. I’m like, what? It was so awesome.
Anne: No hint that you would eventually emancipate yourself.
Danny Moves to Utah
Tiffany: You know, so excited for it. We ended up moving in together and renting a basement apartment. And his friend rented the other room. It was a two bedroom apartment. We shared one room, and then he had the other. It wasn’t until he moved here to Utah, that romanticism, oh, I can’t wait to eat breakfast in the same room as you. I can’t wait to go do, all the things you want to do when you’re in a long distance relationship. Once he was here, it was like the monster came out. I started to see who he really was.
Anne: Did you ever consider that talking on the phone and all that before he moved here was grooming? You wouldn’t until hindsight, obviously.
Tiffany: Right. He treated me like gold, he honestly did. He wrote me poems and sent me flowers. So I was like, this guy is perfect. He flew here to take me to homecoming at university. But he was here for moments, he was here for three days, five days, you know, short spurts. So it’s easy to have like, oh, every little moment’s amazing with you. There were no issues about you need to emancipate yourself before he moved here.
We didn’t fight over the phone. He didn’t say mean things over the phone. It wasn’t until he got me one on one in person that it started. I very distinctly remember, it started the day I ran the torch. We’d just gotten home.
First Signs of Abuse from Danny
Tiffany: And we were in the basement and started arguing about something. And he came over to me and shoved me, and the torch fell out of my hand. And I was so worried that that glass on the torch would break. Because somebody had paid for me to keep the torch. It was like, wow, this is so cool. He shoved me, and that torch fell out of my hand, and I was like, whoa.
Then I started crying, and he came over and put his hand over my mouth and said, you stop your crying. And it was like, it wasn’t okay for me to shed tears. And it was such a big day in my life. It was like, he was trying to take away my moment, if you will.
Anne: We see that a lot. On a holiday, or on a birthday, they might not shove. Like, shoving is pretty overt abuse, obviously. But, they might do something to throw you off emotionally, ruin your day. When I was on your podcast, you talked about the fact that he was using pornography, but you didn’t see that as an abuse issue or that you needed to emancipate yourself.
Tiffany: Yeah, so, he was a photographer. It was a hobby. But turned into where he was pursuing it professionally. The Victoria’s Secret model, Gisele Bundchen, and some other Victoria’s Secret models. He always looked at pictures of them, or he had books, like coffee table books of them in scantily clad clothes, bikinis and things. I thought, well, he’s a photographer. He admires beautiful photos.
Emancipate yourself FROM OTHER Women’s photos
Tiffany: There was a Sante D’Orazio book he had of women that just had underwear on, or they’re naked, and you see everything. I didn’t think much of it, but hindsight, as you say, now I’m like, okay, he was doing this stuff right in front of me all along. It escalated to a point where we had the computer in the bedroom, because we had those tight quarters in that basement apartment. And sharing with his friend living on the other side of the basement.
He would look up these photos online, and he started looking at them right before we’d go to bed. And then he’d want to get into bed and do something. Sexually is what I mean by doing something. And like, you’re not going to get your rocks off by visually stimulating yourself looking at these naked women. Of these supermodels or just women you think are gorgeous and then come get into bed with me. I would say things like that.
And he’d make me feel like I was a complete idiot, that I was making stuff up. He tried to make me feel like I was being crazy, and I did. I questioned it a few times. Am I crazy? Is this just me being ultra paranoid or something? Do you need to emancipate yourself? That’s something that happened regularly. Now that I’m thinking of it. I was one of his subjects. He would love to take pictures of me, just out and about every day.
I was very skinny and slender at the time, and I was modeling on the side here and there, but then of course, behind closed doors, he’d want me to take photos like he was looking at online.
Recognizing Abuse
Anne: Did you recognize it was abuse while you were in it and even getting out and emancipate yourself? Or did you have to be out of it for a while to recognize, whoa, that was abusive?
Tiffany: So when we were in it, I started to get more vocal about it and say, this doesn’t make me feel right. You know, this shouldn’t be happening. Why do you have to do that before you get into bed with me? And then we’d get into these big blow up fights. Like I say, he’d make me feel crazy. We were together four or five years. I would ask about marriage.
Do you think we’re ever going to get married? Not, hey, when are you going to propose to me? Like, hey, do you think we’re ever going to get married? Because nobody wants to waste their time, obviously, and we’re this far in. And any time I would mention that M word, marriage, he would freak out. It would cause a huge disturbance in our relationship, and we would fight, and it became something that I walked on eggshells and never dared to ask it again.
I had this little epiphany where I’m like, if he doesn’t know by now that I’m somebody he could marry and I can’t even talk about it. Then I’m wasting my time.
Ending the Relationship
Tiffany: So I started sleeping on the couch. The last six months of our relationship, I slept on the couch. I would say to him, you know, if you keep treating me like this, I’m going to leave. I don’t think he believed me. And I went apartment looking on the side and found an apartment and signed a lease. I didn’t know how in the world I was going to make it work financially, but did it anyway. And I moved out one day while he was at work. And never let him know where I went. You can emancipate yourself.
He called me and was like, Where the heck are you? And what are you doing? And I mentioned the marriage thing. If you don’t know you’re going to marry me, and we can’t even talk about it, what’s the point? And he’s like, Well, just come back, and I’ll propose to you on a mountain in Paris, or blah, blah, you know, just somewhere in Europe. And I’m like, it’s too late. So then he tried to use his manipulation of giving me the things he knew I always wanted, and withheld from me.
There were so many times going back even to when I was six, I knew something wasn’t right. I didn’t know it was specifically the word abuse. I knew something wasn’t right when my stepfather did the things he did. When Danny would come to bed and do the things he did and the way I felt, I knew it wasn’t right. Listening to my gut was huge, and it’s something I should have done sooner.
emancipate yourself AND Listen to Your Gut
Tiffany: You feel a certain way. You’re feeling that way for a reason. I know that’s vague, but listen to your intuition. If something in your brain says, this just doesn’t seem right, or doesn’t make me feel right. Then it’s probably not right. But in addition, I think the biggest thing is that many times I didn’t say something in fear of another abuse happening. Whether it was beating, emotional or mental. See something, say something.
If you don’t say something, nothing can be done. We know this about the reporting of abuse, the prosecuting of abuse. Specifically with mental and emotional abuse. There are no scars to prove anything. It’s just kind of word against word. Reach out to somebody you trust.
For me, I trusted nobody other than a bound book with the word journal written on the front of it. So, my journal, if that’s what you gotta do, write something in a journal, get it out. And then see how that felt, and then be able to move forward to talking to an actual person about it. But I know the hardest step is the start, that stops you when trying to emancipate yourself.
It’s that first step of, I’m afraid to say something, because who knows what he’s going to do. If you can take that first step, and you realize, okay, I’m strong, I did that, how’d that feel? And then you take the next and then the next, then you’ve got a momentum going to build yourself back up to healing
Anne: Yeah, taking tiny steps. We actually have three steps. Where, if you have no idea what to do, you can find that.
Building a Life of Safety & Peace
Tiffany: Yeah, I love that. Because you feel so powerless when all this happens and don’t feel like you can emancipate yourself. Standing in your power and saying, I can’t do this anymore. Here I am at 38 years old. The last abuse I experienced was 18 years ago. And I’m not here to discourage the listeners, but I’m still a work in progress. I’m still doing things daily to remind myself that I am worthy, beautiful, strong, you know, all the things that you don’t believe when you’re mentally beaten down and emotionally beaten down.
Anne: I’m proud of you for all the amazing things you’ve accomplished in the face of abuse. Can you talk about goals you’ve set for yourself? The fact that you don’t have children with your abuser is a blessing, but can you talk about how you’ve built a life of safety and peace now?
Tiffany: The biggest thing is my support. Meaning the people I allow around me. I’ve learned to value myself in a way that I am careful who I let in. I’m just at a point in my life, and it doesn’t matter if I was 21 or 72. Everybody should have this in their life, they deserve it. That I just don’t need to be around people who don’t believe in me and are there to pick me apart.
I even have cousins and aunts and uncles that might not be a huge believer in me because of the emancipation I did against my parents. That’s hard, but really, to get me to where I am today, I can literally go through anything now and overcome it.
Meditation & Positive Affirmations
Tiffany: And the way I do that is, I believe in meditation. I used to think it was a very woo woo thing. Probably five years ago. If I had this conversation with you, the word meditation wouldn’t have even come out of my mouth. I’ve really embraced it. in the last five years, whether that be meditation for you might be praying, sitting in a quiet room listening to your thoughts or trying not to listen to your thoughts. Meditation to you might be staring at a landscape and listening to birds, you know, meditation can be different for everyone.
But I bring that up, because it’s important to be comfortable with yourself. And to listen to the thoughts that might come into your head, but not necessarily give them a ton of credit when you are trying to emancipate yourself. Because sometimes our mind tries to confuse us, or our mind tries to remind us of, oh, but remember, you were not worth it back then.
You’ve got to remind yourself, yes, I am. Because I’ve grown, and I’ve made the steps, and I’m doing the things I need to do. So meditation is huge, and then for me also positive affirmations. If you step into my house, you can’t go into one room of my house, including the bathroom, that there’s no positive affirmation.
Whether it’s me writing a post it note on the mirror, or something on the wall hanging up. You know, I have a daily affirmation calendar that I change every day, and it’s a new affirmation. I think kind of rewiring your thoughts and beliefs about yourself through positive affirmations really helps.
Emancipate yourself WITH Goals for SHARE Initiative
Tiffany: People used to make fun of it. You know that Saturday Night Live skit where the guy would talk to himself in the mirror and be like gosh dang it, I’m special and everybody loves me. But it’s true. That stuff works, negative self talk is not gonna get you anywhere. The positive self talk, and then visualizing it and seeing it in front of your face, as well, gets you so far. It’s helped me tremendously. Now, as far as goals, obviously I’m still running SHARE.
As a matter of fact, we’re doing a Thanksgiving dinner for a family in Bountiful next week, which has been through tremendous domestic violence. And so, my goal is to have SHARE be a global initiative in the long term to emancipate yourself. Not just something happening here in Utah, because that’s my reach as of now. I want it to be a national initiative recognized everywhere in every state, and then a global initiative, because abuse is an epidemic.
Statistics aren’t getting any better, specifically during COVID. You know, when people were trapped in their homes with their perpetrators.
Anne: Many women who listen to this podcast are in a relationship with an emotional and psychological abuser. They fear getting out of the relationship, because they feel like I need to stay in the relationship, because it’s better for the children if I do that. Being a Victim of childhood abuse from your parents, what would you say to that for women victims. Who are feeling like, getting out is too hard, I need to stay in, and plus it’s better for the kids?
Long-Term Effects on Children
Tiffany: So, getting out, and emancipate yourself, if a woman says getting out is too hard, she’s talking about, you know, I would say herself, not selfishly, but it’s hard for her because she’s gonna have to be a single mother. She’s gonna have to do this on her own. Maybe she’ll feel she has no support. Whatever the case may be. But you’ve gotta look at it this way.
By staying, you’re affecting all these kids’ lives in a negative way. Because they’re now exposed to it in some capacity. Whether you’re not being able to give your 100 percent as a mother. Because you’re dealing with this abuse in the home, or they’re seeing the abuse take place in the home, not necessarily physical, they can see it emotionally.
I just had a podcast this morning where a lady was talking about emotional abuse and how much it affected her seeing her mother and her father do that to each other. So I would say long term I know that’s hard to do in the moment and feeling that you can’t do it. Whether it be financially or support wise or safety wise or whatever the case may be.
But if you don’t do something now, it’s going to have a trickle effect even greater on your children than if you were to leave. And I don’t say that to, like, make them feel guilty or bad. But that’s the truth of the matter from somebody who’s been there. If my mother had, when I said, hey, this is what Robert’s doing to me. If she had taken my side. She would have said, you know, okay, this is absolutely crazy, I’m protecting you as my daughter. And Robert, you need to leave.
Challenges of Shared Custody
Tiffany: Then Tristina, my little sister, who’s nine years younger than me, would not have had to deal with the abuse she went through, if that makes any sense. So, if she had stopped it with me, it was only one statistic, instead of my sister, and we suspect even my brother, because my stepfather was molested by his father.
So try to remember that it’s going to be so much easier on the other side. To look back and say I can’t believe I went through that, than to still be in it. I get that, but think of those kids.
Anne: Absolutely, I think there’s one thing that we need to acknowledge here. And that is divorce doesn’t solve abuse. So If you get divorced and are out of it, but your ex is still engaging in abusive behaviors and you share custody. Then there’s still going to be abuse happening.
So even though you’re protecting your kids more than if your abuser lived in your home. If you’re required by law, which most everybody is, to send your children with your abusive ex. Maybe you have 50 50 custody, maybe you have sole custody, whatever it is, he will still have access to those children. So divorce is not the complete answer.
It doesn’t solve abuse, but it is a way to start stepping out of it and emancipate yourself in some cases, in most cases. So I want to caution everyone from thinking, okay, the solution is divorce. Because even when you divorce, or even if you divorce. If you share children, that abuse is still ongoing, both to you and your children.
emancipate yourself BY Building Confidence & Strength
Anne: And that’s what makes the situation so difficult for victims. With the court systems, the way they are, and with the situations they are with custody, you can’t just completely walk away from the abuse and emancipate yourself.
Tiffany: Yeah, I didn’t think of that. I mean, I don’t have children of my own. I’ll have to say that. So take what I’m saying with that grain of salt. Other than I have raised my siblings, I ended up taking them out of foster care and raising them, but it’s not the same. I didn’t even think of that aspect. It is such a tricky place to be in. It comes down to having confidence in yourself and having that strength. But then where does it come from when you’re getting beaten down every day?
Anne: I do think victims are stronger the more they can escape the abuse, and divorce facilitates that. So even if their abuser is still engaging in abusive behaviors, if they have separated themselves as much as possible from the harm, they’re going to get stronger. They’re going to live a more healthy, emotional life, physical life. They’re going to feel better.
Even if the abuse is still sort of this. thing that’s hanging over them and their children, possibly for the rest of their lives. At least you’re providing some type of barrier, which you wouldn’t have otherwise.
Encouragement to Take the First Step
Tiffany: I just want to say probably the phrase I’ve already used here, it is the start that stops you. So I challenge everyone who listens to take that first step to emancipate yourself. Whatever that first step looks like for you. Whether it’s again journaling, taking the time to sit in peace with yourself and meditate, or reaching out to somebody you feel is safe.
Continue to listen to this podcast. It’s a tremendous resource for you ladies that have gone through this, and just keep tuning in and hearing these stories that will help you and what Anne has to offer, and that’s awesome.
Anne: Thank you so much, Tiffany, for coming on today’s episode.
Tiffany: Thank you.
What You Need To Know Before You Order Christian Intimacy Books
Sep 20, 2022
If your husband has been unfaithful and you’re looking for Christian books to save your family, here’s what you need to know.
1. Women Want Christian Books To Save Their Marriage & Families
It’s absolutely the right thing to try and get help when your husband has been cheating on you or mean to you. Some fChristian books offer advice on what to do to save your marriage. Unfortunately, almost none of those books educate women about emotional and psychological abuse.
Christ loved women, and He came to deliver the oppressed from bondage. If the Christian resources you receive don’t educate you about emotional and psychological abuse, they won’t help you save your marriage. In fact, the advice they give will likely make things worse.
2. Talk With Christian Women Who Understand How Betrayal Affects You
If your husband has betrayed you, it’s dangerous to turn to Christian books or any other means. Because if they don’t understand how and why betrayal in marriage is abusive to you, you won’t receive truthful information that Christ wants you to have.
To talk to Christian women who understand your situation, attend one of our daily, online Group Sessions. There you can fellowship with faithful women who are discovering their husband’s true character and figuring out what to do through prayer and scripture study.
Transcript: What You Need To Know Before You Order Christian Intimacy Books
Anne: So many women are looking for Christian books on intimacy, searching for them on Amazon. Here is what you need to know before you order any Christian books. As a Christian myself, and if you’re not Christian or you’re agnostic or atheist, this episode has a lot of data that will be useful to you. We’ll talk about the incorrect information that Christian books on intimacy have propagated, and how it’s harmed women.
Women looking for Christian books to save their families aren’t dumb. They’re humble and are reaching out for help. They’re resisting this type of abuse in any way they can think of. But because they don’t know it’s abuse, they’re definitely doing the right thing trying to get help. The problem is that the books don’t have any information about abuse in them.
Anne: So today I’m talking with Sheila Rae Gregoire. She’s best known as the blogger of to love honor and vacuum. And she, her daughter Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach and Epidemiologist Joanna Sowatski, surveyed more than 20,000 Christian women. About their lives, marriages, and beliefs about marriage and intimacy. Together, they wrote a book called The Great Sex Rescue, the Lies You’ve Been Taught, and How to Recover What God intended.
After reading it, I’m like, throw all your other Christian intimacy books in the garbage. Today, Sheila and I will focus on how to recognize intercourse that’s unhealthy. So, Sheila, you started writing about intimacy in Christian circles a long time ago. What got you interested in this in the first place?
Christian Books Containing Bad Advice: Sheila’s Journey Into Intimacy Writing
Sheila: Thanks so much for having me. We had such a great time chatting before we even recorded this, that like, hey, we’re just besties. Well, it’s like nobody grows up thinking I’m going to become the Christian sex lady. Like that’s not anyone’s plan, and it certainly wasn’t mine. I started blogging and I was just talking about marriage, you know, and parenting and housekeeping, and just the normal mom blog stuff.
But simultaneously, my husband and I were speaking at many marriage conferences, and we always had to do the talk because nobody wanted to do it. And so we would just get plugged in there and he’s a doctor. He’ll talk up at anything. He doesn’t care. And I don’t care either. So it seemed like we were always the intimacy people.
And I just started writing about it more. The more I wrote about it, the more people showed up at the blog. And I think ever since then, my blog has been mostly about intimacy.
Anne: Hey, I get where you’re coming from. I never thought I’d be the pornography podcaster. So I totally get it. My mom always says the anti-pornography podcaster. So tell me about this study that you did.
Sheila: It seemed like no matter how much we said, and no matter how much good content I produced. People still had all the same problems. And it was like I wasn’t making a dent in it. And I started to wonder, maybe the issue isn’t that people don’t have enough good resources. Maybe it’s that our foundation is faulty, and there’s something seriously wrong underneath. But until we address that structural flaw, nothing’s really going to work.
Huge Study About Identifying Messages Hurting Women
Sheila: And so we did this huge study of Christian women in every denomination, every sect, every everything. Trying to figure out what correlates with good a good intimate life, and what correlates with a bad one. And how we can identify what messages in Christian books hurt women. And I think one of our big problems is just a definitional one.
So if I were to say to you, did you have it last night? Okay, which I won’t, because that’s really creepy. But if I asked you that, chances are you’re thinking something specific. Like, you’re thinking, did he put his thing into her thing and move around until he climaxed? You know, that’s our definition.
Anne: You can say penis and vagina, by the way. So let’s just say really quick, for this particular episode, if you do have young ears listening, we will be saying that. So you may want to pause and restart when they’re not in the car.
Sheila: I’m probably going to say orgasm too. So anyway, yeah, did he put his penis into her vagina and move around until he reached climax? And that’s what we think it is. But, in our survey, what we found is that only about a third of women who do reach orgasm can reach orgasm through intercourse alone. Okay, so most women need something other than just intercourse. And most women find it easier to reach orgasm in other ways.
Biblical Perspective On Intimacy
Sheila: So if we say intercourse is just man puts thingy into her thingy and moves around until he climaxes, we’re leaving her almost entirely out of the description. Like she could lie there counting ceiling tiles, she could write a grocery list in her head, and that still counts. And that’s just not how the Bible talks about it. First of all, it’s not only physical. The Bible talks about it as a deep knowing, you know, Adam knew his wife Eve. Like it’s a deep knowing between two people.
So it isn’t just. physical. It’s also supposed to be spiritually intimate. Then it’s supposed to be mutual and pleasurable, where both get something out of it. And instead, we’ve condensed it to one-sided intercourse. When we do that, all kinds of bad things happen. And I think our primary problem is that we see it mostly from a male perspective, that it’s only about intercourse.
Well, Biblical intimacy is something which is life giving. It’s something which binds you together and helps you to feel more intimate. The way we often talk about it is actually something which is soul crushing. We see it as an obligation that she owes him. So it’s an entitlement on his part. It’s an obligation on hers. Many Christian intimacy authors write books with bad information. And that’s got all kinds of repercussions. What we saw over and over again in our survey responses and in the focus groups we did afterwards.
Is that the women with the best lives, the most responsive, and enjoyed it the most. Were the women who felt emotionally close to their husbands, both inside and outside the bedroom.
Emotional Closeness & Satisfaction
Sheila: So, the people in the happiest marriages tend to have the best intimacy, and that shouldn’t surprise us. Like, well, that’s kind of intuitive, right? But the problem is, we talk about it as if it can be a substitute for those other things. Like, if you don’t feel close, you should just have it so that you’ll be closer. What we found is that that doesn’t actually work. When women have it for years. And they feel emotionally distant from their husbands, they just can’t sustain that.
When you have it, which is supposed to be deep knowing, and when it becomes only physical. It actually becomes a rejection of you. Like if it is supposed to be a knowing, it means both people matter. But if it becomes something that you only do because you’re supposed to, then your needs are no longer being considered. And that means you don’t matter, and then it becomes a rejection, and that’s not right.
Think about it this way. When you get a driver’s license, you can now drive. It doesn’t mean you get a car. And when you get married, you now have the relationship in which you can have it. It doesn’t mean you get it. You’re just now in the relationship where it is sanctioned by God. But that doesn’t mean it has to happen anymore than having a driver’s license means you get a car.
https://youtube.com/shorts/v_Tkouso_8A
It just means you have permission to drive. And it’s the same thing with intercourse. You know, when we get married, it’s not like we’re promising now I will have it with you whenever you want. We’re now saying this is the relationship in which life giving it can occur.
The Impact Of Forced Intercourse On Women
Sheila: And that’s healthy. That’s a good thing. That’s what we should be aiming for. But God does not require us to have soul crushing intercourse. And if you’re told you need it, or else something bad will happen. right? Or else he’s going to watch explicit material, or else he’s going to have an affair, or he’ll be grumpy and treat you terribly.
Then that’s not a free choice that you are making. When you can’t freely say no, you can’t freely say yes either. And that’s a big problem. And we’ve got the numbers. I’m a numbers person. I love it. But we have so much data of what happens when you have it for years, simply because you feel like you have to. And you feel almost forced into it, and it is not pretty. This does not end well for women. This is soul crushing.
And what I often tell women to say is something like this, “hon, I would love to have a passionate life with you. I would love to make love with you. But that’s not what’s happening right now. What’s happening right now is that I feel used and so I am no longer willing to have it one-sided with you. I need to connect in every way, and I need to be able to trust you and I need to feel safe. And until that happens, I am no longer willing to have it with you.”
That’s okay to do because when God created us for relationship and marriage, he didn’t create us so that we were now slaves to someone else, as many Christian relationship books state.
Personal Experiences & Struggles
Sheila: He created us for connectedness, for community, for relationship, for emotional health. God never wants you to feel used. That is never his will.
Anne: I remember when I first got married, I was 31 and a virgin. I remember telling my friends who were also virgins, I said, I feel like a machine. It was really one-sided. I didn’t enjoy it from the beginning, and I said, it’s weird. Because I just feel like some object he use. I thought I would get it, but I don’t get it. And I remember thinking that and telling people that because I was trying to get help. I was trying to be like, what is this?
How do I navigate this? There were so many things I didn’t understand. I didn’t know he was using it. I didn’t know I was being gaslit. But I think many women have that thought of like, am I just? A robot? What am I? Who am I? What is my identity in this? And how do I fit into this? What does lack of true intimacy do to a woman? Can you talk about what the data said about women who have traditional views on gender roles? Or who get their information from popular Christian marriage books.
Sheila: Yeah, I found this interesting. Okay, so let me take my daughter, for instance. One of my daughters is a real homemaker. She loves everything about being a housewife. And she came home last week because her husband is in the military and he’s away right now. She came home last week, and cleaned my entire kitchen, got behind the fridge, got under the stove. Like she totally cleaned everything.
Christian Promote Harmful Traditional Gender Roles And Mandatory Intimacy
Sheila: She lives for this sort of thing. And her husband, like I said, is in the military. Okay, he likes to shoot things for fun. Like he loves doing skull art. He will shoot animals, and he will turn the skulls into things on the wall. All right. Now, what we found is that when you look at couples like my daughter and son-in-law, if those roles are freely chosen. So if she decides to stay home and be a housewife, and if he decides to work outside the home.
Because that is what they individually want to do, that’s great. But if they make that choice because they think I have to stay at home because I’m a woman, and I have to go out and earn a living because I’m a man, their emotional intimacy suffers.
Anne: Does it also apply to something, like I have to clean the toilet, make dinner or do the laundry because I’m a woman? And the man thinking, you have to clean the toilet because you’re the woman?
Sheila: Probably, I would assume, but we can’t speak to that because we didn’t specifically ask about that. There are some more words that we didn’t put in. We didn’t say we’re egalitarian. Even though we are, we didn’t say lots of words like that. And that was deliberate. That was a deliberate choice that we made. And the reason is because the people I need to reach, the people whose minds I need to change. Are the people who are buying in the most to many of these negative teachings.
Trying To Change People’s Minds
Sheila: They tend to be the people in the most patriarchal churches. That’s another word we didn’t use, patriarchal. We wanted to present the data and let it speak for itself. What we found on the blog over the last few years is that every time I try to talk about gender roles or something, we end up talking past each other. People start debating doctrine and they start debating. What does the Bible say about this?
I don’t find that gets us anywhere, but if I can say something like, you can believe that if you want. But she’s going to have a 38 percent lower orgasm rate. I find that works better. We try to bring it back to the data and get it out of the political realm or the doctrinal realm. And talk about the data. I think this can help change people’s minds. I think this is the way in, because most people want good intimacy. Like, most people don’t want this to be wrecked.
And so if I can show them, Hey, when you believe these things, it is more likely to be terrible. They’re going to listen to me much more than if I start talking about how misogynistic everybody is.
Anne: I like it. I do use those terms I don’t think of them as political, you know, but some people do. So I respect that you did that and that makes total sense.
Sheila: Well, I think you’re a different spot though, right? Like you get people who are coming to you, who have already felt betrayed or are thinking about it. I’m trying to reach a broader audience and change the conversation. I just hope we’re doing that. I think we are.
Popular Christian Books & Their Flaws
Anne: Oh, I think so too. Can you talk about these popular Christian books and some of the main themes that you saw that were unhealthy for women?
Sheila: Yeah, one of the biggest ones is summed up in a Christian book called Love and Respect, where the author says, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have. And that says so much. Like, first of all, it says it is for the guy. It’s not for the woman. It phrases it in terms of his need, rather than just a drive. You know, I don’t believe it is a need. I think we all have a drive, but it’s not a need.
And when we talk about it as a need, we frame it as something which she would be depriving him if she ever said no.
Anne: He’s gonna die if you don’t have it with him.
Sheila: Yeah, exactly.
Anne: It’s like air and food.
Sheila: So that’s highly problematic. That was typical, that framing of it as something about him, not about her. And then the other one, I think, which was big. Which goes throughout most resources is that you’re just not allowed to deprive him. So it is an obligation that women owe.
Kevin Lehman in Sheet Music said, “You know, when you get married, realize you’re signing up to have it at least two or three times a week for the rest of your life. And sometimes you might have to force yourself and you might want to shove him off of you. But you have to do it anyway as an act of obedience.”
Christian Marriage Books Seem To Promote Marital Coercion
Sheila: So we actually measured that. We said, what happens if women have it when their primary motivation is because I have to. And it just leads to all sorts of terrible things in terms of marital satisfaction. And it drives the couple further and further apart.
Anne: I appreciated how you brought up what marital coercion is, which, to my knowledge, is not mentioned anywhere in any of these popular Christian books. They never say, if you don’t get your wife’s consent, then it’s rape, right? And I love how you brought that up. Were there any questions about marital rape in your study? Are Christian relationship books addressing this? No.
Sheila: What we did is we talked about it in some focus groups and in some follow up surveys. And what I can tell you is that of the women who left their email addresses, which was about 20 percent of the women who took our survey. About 20 percent of them said they had stories of marital rape to share with us. Which is a very high percentage. Now, obviously that was a self selected group, but none of the evangelical resources we looked at even said the word consent.
John Gottman’s book is the best selling marriage book on the secular market. Which we used as our control book Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, that one spoke at length about consent. And so this is something which is talked about all the time in the secular world, which the Christian world has no idea how to talk about.
Every Man’s Battle: A Critical Look
Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, many of our listeners have experienced marital coercion. And so that number does not surprise me at all because we talk about it all the time. I don’t mean to make light of it, but it’s just something that’s common around here. So can we talk about Every Man’s Battle?
Sheila: Okay, so Every Man’s Battle basically says men will lust, and the book is strange, okay. Because it’ll give a lot of lists of things that men do. Like maybe you find yourself opening the door for her, but not out of honorable means. Just so that she can go first, and you can stare at her behind. You know, maybe you find yourself looking across the room at a woman where a button has come undone.
Maybe you find yourself masturbating in a gym car parking lot to see the women exiting the gym. And it’s like, excuse me. Or they’ll tell a story about this guy who’s watching TV. His sister-in-law is lying down on the floor on her stomach, and she falls asleep. And she’s got really short shorts on. So he masturbates there while she’s asleep on the floor. And they portray that as a sin against his purity, when really that is a sin against her.
This is the problem throughout that book. Every time he lusts, it is a sin against his purity. And she never enters the equation. Like whenever they talk about women, they give this gross discussion of this jogger at the beginning of the book. How her glistening flesh, ample bosom, and skin tight tie-dyed jogging suit, it’s just gross.
Treating Women Like Objects
Sheila: And then they say the solution to lust is to bounce your eyes and not look at women. And then to transfer all your energy to your wife. Stop lusting after everybody else and just lust after your wife. But, you know, lust is a sin, even if it’s after your wife. Like lust is just simply using someone else for your gratification. That’s what lust is. So you shouldn’t be lusting after your wife either.
You should love your wife and enjoy an intimate experience with her. Not just using her, but they think it’s okay to use her because she’s just your wife. Like you can’t defeat lust when you agree with lust’s definition of women. Lust’s definition of women is they exist as objects.
So the way I’m going to defeat lust is to never look at a woman because she’s a object. And then to treat my wife like a object, so that I don’t want to treat all these other women like objects. How about just simply learning how to respect women as whole people?
Anne: It’s not only a disservice to women, but also a disservice to men to say that men are incapable of treating women with respect. So you have to like what? Shut your eyes and Mr. Magoo through life.
Christian Books Magnify The Stress Of Maintaining Purity
Sheila: In the first chapter of Through A Man’s Eyes. It describes how stressful this man’s life is, because he’s trying to remain pure for his wife. So his entire workday is stressful. Because what if one of his coworkers is sitting across from him in their meeting, and her button is undone? Or what if another coworker, what if her skirt is too short? And what if the barista at the coffee shop, what if she’s wearing something tight?
What if he sees these billboards and he’s trying not to look at anybody all day, and then he gets home and he’s so happy that now he gets to look at his wife. And I read that and I’m like, Are men really that stressed their entire life? Like, is it that difficult to be a man? So I asked my husband, who’s a pediatrician, and he works in an all female environment. So all the other doctors are female. The nurses tend to be female. The parents who bring the kids in are female.
So I thought, if life is really this stressful, he’s going to have a terrible time. So I said, are you stressed all day because a woman might have a button undone or she might be too attractive? And he laughed at me. He didn’t think I was serious. And I said, no, no, I am serious. Like, is this difficult for you? That’s what some Christian relationship books say.
And he still laughed at me. But the book had told me that men will not confess this to you. Men will not tell you the truth. And so your husband won’t tell you the truth. So I’m wondering, is he just not telling me the truth?
Respecting Women As Whole People
Sheila: And then when he realized I was serious, he’s like, wait, no, there are guys like that? No, there’s not. I don’t want to share too much information, but my husband is not a low drive man. Like, okay, he’s got testosterone and everything.
And he thought this whole idea was the stupidest thing he’d ever heard, because my husband respects women. And he was really offended. He was offended that people would think a man can’t just respect women. And I just wish more men would get upset at the demeaning, horrible way these and other Christian books treat men.
Anne: I mean, I talk to my sons often about that. Like, when we went to a water park. And one of my sons was like, Mom, I don’t know if I want to go there, because there are so many girls in bikinis, and it kind of bothers me. And I said, well, what do you think would happen if they didn’t have a stomach, these women? What is their stomach for? I’m like, is it for you to look at? Or is it so they can eat?
And he was like, Oh, so they can eat. And I was like, and what are their legs for? What if a woman didn’t have legs? I’m trying to help him realize that women, regardless of what they’re wearing or doing, are people. And she’s not wearing a bikini to ruin your day. She’s just wearing a bikini, because she wants to go to the beach and soak up some sun.
Navigating Life With An Addicted Spouse
Anne: So many women when they find out about their husband’s explicit content use. They go into this mode where they’re like, we can’t go to the beach. We can’t go swimming. We can’t watch the Super Bowl. And suddenly, the things they can do narrow and narrow. And I’m not saying people should do things unethical or immoral. But I like going to the beach, you know, I want to go to the beach.
I want to go to a water park with my kids. And want to enjoy regular wholesome activities with my children. I have a lot of empathy for this, because I went through the same period where I felt traumatized when we went to the beach. I felt like we couldn’t watch movies. It’s such a weight to bear, your husband’s inability to treat women with respect.
Sheila: Well, first of all, I’m so sorry. You should never have to bear that. But in terms of how to handle that, if he can’t go to the beach, you can still go to the beach with your kids. Like, don’t wreck your own life. But the other thing is to remember what victory should look like. Victory means he can look at women as whole people. And that means that he needs to stop blaming women for his use and his lust.
The reason he’s lusting is not because of what she’s wearing. The reason he’s lusting is because of how he chooses to see women, and it is not her fault.
Christian Books Wrongfully Compare Your Wife To Methadone
Anne: Absolutely, we see that type of behavior and disrespect for women as an abuse issue. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve got an emotionally and psychologically abusive man. Who is unable to view women as people, and that’s going to include you. In Chapter six, you say your wife is not your methadone. Around here, I say alcoholics abuse alcohol, drug addicts abuse drugs, and addicts abuse people. They use people as drugs.
Sheila: Yeah, when we first read the Christian book, Love and Respect, I was absolutely floored. Up until that time, I had never read many evangelical marriage books or Christian marriage books. Because I was always so scared of plagiarizing. So I read Love and Respect, the chapter said men need it in a way that women don’t. If men don’t get physical release, they’re going to have an affair, and women need to understand men’s lust problem.
And that’s all it said. It was terrible. And I wrote a blog post about this, and I was trying to convey how awful this was, like how absolutely abhorrent this was. I was talking to my daughter, and she said, well, it’s almost like he’s talking about women like they’re methadone. And I thought, yeah, that’s the perfect analogy. So we said like, women are not methadone.
And then I’m reading Every Man’s Battle, and they actually think that’s a selling feature. Like they use that line twice. They said once he quits cold turkey, be like a merciful vial of methadone for him.
Anne: Wow.
Sheila: Like they did it unironically. We were saying it ironically, they did it unironically.
A Disturbing Comparison
Sheila: Like they thought this was a good line. They have no clue. Let’s think about what that’s saying. Okay, methadone is a substitute. So if you’re addicted to opioids, what you want is the opioid. But you will settle for methadone, because it satiates you enough that you don’t feel the need to go after the opioid. So if we’re talking about this in the context of marriage and explicit content, what we’re saying is what he wants is to masturbate to that hot woman on the screen.
But he will settle for having it with you, because that will satiate him enough that he won’t go for the it right now. Like that’s disgusting. Women are not methadone.
Women are whole people made in the image of God, and we should never have been treated that way. And it’s absolutely unconscionable that the book series sold 4 million copies. Like where is the discernment and where are the leaders saying women are worth more than this? And I guess that’s what I want. I want people to understand that women are worth more than this.
We are precious, and it was never meant to be reduced to. Hey, let him ejaculate inside of you so that he doesn’t watch it. That is abusive in every way. Thank you for what you’re doing, because my heart is for those who have been betrayed. I pray this message will get out there, and that it will be a message of real freedom. And just to know that God wants wholeness, He wants real intimacy, and it is never ever his heart that any woman feel used.
Processing Trauma From Bad Advice
Anne: I am so grateful that you have shed light on these dangerous ideas. That many Christian women have had as the foundation of their understanding of what it is and what their “role” is in it. So the question is, how do we process the trauma we’ve experienced from all the bad advice? That we may have received from these Christian books and society over the years?
Sheila: I was in that culture, you know, that evangelical culture, which said men need it and women want affection. It’s usually the guy who’s frustrated. And women, what we need to do is understand how much he needs it. And in The Good Girls Guide, the Original, there was an element of it there. Because I was in that culture, and I was never comfortable with it. I always knew there was something wrong with it.
And I was actually one of the first people to talk a lot about higher drive wives. Because I did a big survey back then, and found out how many women actually have the higher drive. And it’s like they don’t exist, like they’re unicorns. No one ever talks about that. It’s just, Oh, he needs it and she doesn’t, but not always true. But you know, the more I listened to women.
The more I realized that we were missing out on a huge part of the story, and that was actually the impetus for doing that huge survey of 20, 000 women. We wanted to understand, do some evangelical teachings hurt women? Just like you said, they can cause actual trauma, and we were able to measure that.
Measuring The Harm Of Teachings In Christian Marriage Books
Sheila: We can now say, Hey, if you believe all men struggle with lust, it’s Every Man’s Battle. It’s no wonder you don’t feel heard in your marriage. You’re like 47 percent less likely to feel heard in your marriage. Or 59%. less likely to feel like your opinions matter as much as his. This has major repercussions, we need to change the way we talk about it.
Anne: When you start peeling back these layers of maybe Christian teachings that you get from Christian marriage books, general clergy or even societally. We have listeners who aren’t Christian, agnostics or atheists. They tell us the same thing. Maybe in a movie there was a man who was cheating. The woman was like, okay, I’m going to put on cuter outfit and I’m going to get him back or win him back somehow.
So this isn’t just coming from Christian authors, but I think it’s more traumatic coming from Christian authors. Because you have some belief and trust that what they’re telling you is true, and it will help you. And if you follow their counsel or their teachings it’s God approved.
Sheila: Yeah, I think one of the problems actually is that it steals our last place of safety. Like when we say God wants you to have it with your husband, so that he doesn’t watch it. Then who do you go to now when you feel betrayed? Who do you go to now when you feel desperate? Like this is God sanctioned now, so you can’t even pray. Like you have nothing left. They’ve stolen God from you too. And I think that’s where a lot of the source of trauma comes from.
The Problem With Frequency Over Quality
Anne: That’s spiritual abuse. It’s spiritual coercion, essentially saying you’re not a godly person if you don’t give it to your husband when you don’t want it. And they’re also not saying, maybe you don’t want it for a good reason. Maybe because you don’t feel safe. Maybe because he’s been lying to you.
Sheila: That’s the big difference, what is the aim of all the advice? What are we actually working towards? And what we’re working towards is an emotionally healthy relationship. The way that we believe God intended. So we’re working towards a life which is intimate, pleasurable, and mutual. It’s going to be emotionally healthy. And that means you don’t do things that are emotionally unhealthy, that will hurt someone.
And yet, if you look at the advice often given in Christian circles and in the world, the aim is not necessarily emotional health. The aim is to keep your marriage together. Or make sure he feels good, or do this so that you will feel like a good wife. And it’s not actually about health, and should we be surprised when people end up hurt?
Anne: Yeah, it’s almost like the goal was simply to ensure that women have it with their husbands. Like that was the top priority. Because it seemed like the concern was, heaven forbid, a wife not having it with her husband. That is the, like, biggest problem in the world.
Sheila: Yeah, you know, what are the outcome variables for many of these negative teachings? And I know that sounds like outcome variables, super academic. But basically what we meant was if you believe certain things. How can we measure the harm it does or the good it does?
Measure Of A Healthy Marriage
Sheila: So for instance, if you believe women are obligated to give their husband it when they want it. We know that marital satisfaction goes down, l pain rates go up, and orgasm rates go down. If you believe you need to give your husband it or he’ll watch it, same thing. Marital satisfaction plummets, orgasm rates plummet. Same thing if you believe all men struggle with lust, same thing if you believe women have to be the gatekeepers.
So all these things we know have negative outcomes in terms of marital and satisfaction. But, and here’s the crucial but, they also have slightly higher frequency rates. Not like a huge amount. We’re not talking like six times a week versus once a month. We’re talking like, you know, 2.8 times a week instead of 2.3.
And so the question we had was, does this mean that Evangelical leader’s main measure of a healthy life is how often they have it? Rather than how good the it is and how good the marriage is? And we would argue that, yeah, that’s what it means. They think frequency is everything.
Anne: Mm, so in some of these religious marriage books they think anything that would decrease frequency is some kind of threat.
Sheila: Yes, healthier marriages tend to lead to happier people, but that’s not considered a viable alternative. You and I were talking before we started recording about how he said that even though we shouldn’t feel obligated to have it with our spouses, we need to realize that it should be a sacrifice. At least some of the time, and you should have to give it, even if you don’t want to.
Obligation Intimacy: A Harmful Message In Christian Intimacy Books
Sheila: And so it’s like he’s saying on the one hand that obligation intercourse is bad. But then, on the other hand, he’s saying to women. In the same way that you get up in the middle of the night and feed your newborn, even with your sore nipples and everything. So, we need to consider the needs of the other person. And so it’s like he just can’t get rid of this obligation message.
And I think it comes down to the fact that many evangelical pastors, leaders, and probably many people in the wider culture just believe women don’t like it. That if you give them the choice, they won’t have it. That women are not intimate beings. They truly believe that. And so the only way to get women to have it is to tell them they have to. And that’s what we’re arguing against.
We’re trying to set the record straight and say, obligation intimacy doesn’t feel good. That’s not what you want. If you treat your wife like she has to give you it, you will wreck it.
Anne: Yeah.
Sheila: Can I tell you the story about Bob?
Anne: Tell me the Bob story. What about Bob?
Sheila: What about Bob? Okay, his real name is not Bob. I like that name. But anyway, he was a commenter on my blog. And he told me his story. So they’ve been married for 40 years, so I assume he’s in his sixties. And he said, when they first got married, they would have it several times a week, and she always enjoyed it.
The Story Of Bob: A Lesson in Intimacy
Sheila: Like he always made sure she came to orgasm. But then he would say things like, I don’t understand why we don’t do this more often. It’s so great. You like it so much. Why don’t we do it more often? He constantly said this to her. And over a series of years, she just started wanting it less and less. She still has an orgasm, but she has it maybe once every six weeks.
And he says, you know, I would be glad to give up my orgasm so that I can give her pleasure, but she won’t let me. She doesn’t understand that it is how I feel intimate. And I’m reading this and I’m thinking, Okay, so she’s having it several times a week with you, and she’s having a good time, and she’s reaching orgasm, and what do you do? You keep telling her that what she’s doing is wrong and not good enough.
And then you tell her that you don’t feel intimate with her unless she’s having it with you. So that means that all the times she feels like she’s connecting with you her way, don’t register with you. And so eventually she’s going to feel really cheap, and she’s going to stop wanting to have it.
This woman simply didn’t want it as often. It wasn’t that she didn’t want it. It wasn’t that she didn’t like it. She just didn’t want it as often. He treated that like a problem, and it created a problem.
Intimacy and Emotional Health: A Crucial Connection
Anne: So, this is interesting, because many abusive men say the same thing. They say, there’s no problem with me using it. And she’s saying it’s a problem, and then it makes it a problem. What these Christian marriage books tends to say to women is that you don’t matter as much as I do.
If you’re trying to make it a problem, it’s not really a problem. And if I’m trying to make it a problem, it’s for sure a problem. And the one who decides is the man. Whatever his opinion is about it, either way, is just more valid than yours.
Sheila: Yeah, absolutely, like we said earlier, what is the goal? If the goal is emotional health, then what we want is an emotionally healthy relationship. And an emotionally healthy relationship means you connect not just sexually, but also in other ways. And what often happens today is that many men do not feel any drive for any kind of emotional intimacy. So they’ll play video games for eight hours a day, and then they’ll want it.
Like, one of my pet peeves is calling sex intimacy. It is not intimacy. Like, they’re not synonyms. And yet we treat them like they’re synonyms. One of the most depersonalizing, dehumanizing, unintimate things is to have it with someone who is not there with you. Who is fantasizing about someone else, who is obviously not thinking about you. Who is using you. That is the opposite of intimacy.
Anne: I have been on very few dates, um, since my divorce, but I did go on a date the other night.
A Personal Story: Prioritizing Emotional Health
Anne: And in the course of the date, I said to him, you know, I don’t care if I ever have it. I’m good with it either way. Like it doesn’t matter to me. If I never have it again, it’s fine. And, apparently, you’re not supposed to say this on a date, Sheila. And he spent the rest of the night mansplaining to me how this was not a way to talk to a man on a date. I was going to have a marketing problem, he said. And I said, well, if I’m not selling anything, then I don’t have a marketing problem.
So I don’t see what the problem is, because I don’t care what you think about me having it or not. Anyway, it was a very interesting exchange, and the more I thought about it. The more I thought, I’m will say this on every first date. Because it does NOT motivate me at all.
I want to be motivated by an intimate emotional relationship, and then if that leads to an intimate relationship sometime in the future, fine. But like it is not my motivation. But it also led me to think that it is this guy’s motivation. And that’s not what I’m looking for.
Sheila: You know, John Gottman said something interesting in his book, Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. He said he believes the next great stage in human development. The next big breakthrough we’re going to make, is men’s emotional health. That right now men as a whole, and this isn’t me man bashing. This is just simply look at the stats. If you measure relative emotional health, emotional maturity, that sort of thing, women outscore men almost universally.
Women Tend To Outscore Men
Sheila: And by universally, I don’t mean every woman. I mean, throughout classes, throughout ages, like different age, different demographic groups, women tend to do better than men. Now, obviously there are some men who are extremely emotionally healthy, and there are some women who are not emotionally healthy. But just on the whole, in these different segments, women tend to outscore men.
And he thinks this is what’s changing. And I actually believe it. If you look at the way millennial dads parent, and increasingly Gen Z. I’m like how Gen Z dads, the young ones parent, are much more emotionally available. And they’re much more engaged with their kids. You know, this is something that we’re trying to bring home, is that it does not replace intimacy.
And often the reason someone has this insatiable drive, they can never get enough. It’s not actually their drive. If they feel insecure, they need it to make them feel better. If they feel bored, they need it to make them feel better. And If they’re worried about rejection or stress, they need it. And they’re not turning to it because they have this urge to feel close to you.
Anne: Well, and in that case, the partner is just being used to feel better about themselves. So it makes her feel more isolated, more and more used. It can create more and more feelings of resentment and sadness if he’s just thinking about an orgasm. He’s not going to care that it’s miserable for her.
Sheila: Right. And again, it’s only been more recently that I’ve started listening. That I’ve understood how wrong a lot of our understanding of it is.
Changing Beliefs
Sheila: Because you know, when I got married 30 years ago, I believed he needed it to feel love. Because that’s what everyone told me. So if he said I just feel like we never connect, I would feel so guilty. I would feel like he is experiencing a kind of rejection that I will never understand. I’m incapable of understanding how much he needs this because he’s a man and I can’t understand as a woman what a man goes through.
And so no matter what I’m experiencing, what he’s experiencing must be worse. Because this is what we’re told, and I played a part in teaching some of that. I did say some of these things.
Um, it’s funny. My publisher contracted with my husband and me to write The Good Guy’s Guide to Great, because they wanted a companion book. And we were all for that, because we just wanted to tell men how to do this in a healthy way. But I begged them to let me rewrite The Good Girl’s Guide. And it was a bit of a fight because it was still selling really well. It’s always sold well since it came out.
But I was like, I can’t sell it in all good conscience. Now that I’ve listened to people with that survey of 20, 000, I’ve changed the way I think about libido. The way I think about frequency, and the way I think about intimacy. So they went up several committees, and finally let me rewrite it. And I didn’t get paid anything to do it. I wrote an entirely new book, but I think we’re getting healthier.
The Importance of Setting Boundaries
Sheila: Like the discussions, so encouraged me that have been happening. And I feel like you and I are on different sides of the same discussion. Like how do we get to what is healthy, and how do we acknowledge what is harmful and deal with it appropriately?
Anne: Yeah, I remember when I recognized my life was unhealthy, so I stopped initiating it. But I was the one who initiated it all the time. And I told my husband at the time, we’re now divorced, I’m not going to initiate anymore. I need to figure myself out, I’m not blaming this on you. And then he never initiated. There was nothing. He never talked about it. He never said anything. It was like it didn’t exist. And I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait.
I’ve been initiating it for seven years, and then I say, hmm, I’ve got to figure some things out. I’m not having a good time anymore. You go ahead if you want, and he never initiated it. So if I tell people that timeline, you could probably say she stopped initiating, they stopped having it. And then within six months he was arrested, and then they got divorced. So was it my fault for stopping it? Many women might think this, and they’re afraid to set boundaries with their husband.
They’re afraid to say, wait, whoa, I have some needs here. I don’t feel safe. I’m going to step back. They’re afraid of this happening. They don’t want their marriages to fall apart. Their marriages are top priority.
Abuse vs. Divorce: Understanding The Real Problem
Anne: To these women, I want to say, if you take this route and end up divorced like me. I do not want you to get from my story. Don’t have it with your husband equals divorce, and it’s your fault. Or that you’ve done something wrong. Because the problem in my case was that I was not enjoying it because I was being abused. And I stopped having it for good reason, and it was healthy for me to do so. Then I ended up divorced from my abusive spouse. Which is not a bad thing.
Even though I don’t necessarily believe in divorce, I certainly don’t believe in being abused. So, many people are like, divorce is the cause of all these problems or whatever. And I’m like, actually abuse is the cause. Like, abuse is the problem. Abuse is the thing that is hurting you. So, just get clear about what is causing the problems. It’s not necessarily you deciding, wait a minute. This isn’t fun for me.
Sheila: Well, I’ve got two thoughts on that. The first is, again, what is the goal? Things aren’t magically going to get better, because you keep having it and you keep trying to be nicer. If your goal is emotional health, then doing things which protect your emotional health will be helpful in the long run. And, you know, by saying, I’m not going to initiate anymore, what you did was allow a light to be shone in an area where it needed to be shone. because we’re still connecting.
Making Health, Peace & Safety A Priority
Sheila: But when you stop having it, it lays bare all these other things. And so I don’t think anyone should do that lightly. But if having it causes me emotional unhealth, that needs to be addressed. You need to protect your emotional health. And when you do that, the health of every other part of your relationship is more likely to be evident.
Anne: My listeners are married to abusive men. So when we’re talking about my particular skills. I don’t want to say that. But when I talk about these listeners, I think their main concern is setting boundaries and being afraid of things getting worse. And it’s true. When you have an abuser and start setting boundaries, things get worse before they get better. And I understand that concern.
But I always say if you make health, peace, and safety your priority, you will make your way through the fog. It is a scary road, because you’ve got clergy and people around you, accusing you. What? You didn’t have it with your husband? Like that’s a mortal sin. And you might get accused of being abusive. In fact, I’d say most of our listeners have been accused of being abusers themselves. But the thing to consider is, do I want a life of peace?
And you’re never going to know what’s possible until you start making your way toward that. And it might mean you end up divorced, and it might mean you can have a healthy relationship with your husband. That you’ve never had before. Maybe he’ll step up to the plate. We don’t know these things until we start making our way.
The Role Of Prayer In Finding Peace
Anne: And I think it’s interesting that all the pressure is on the woman to not start down that road, rather than being on the man.
Sheila: And I think there’s a reason for that. There’s a reason why the pressure is on the woman. And that’s because she’s actually invested in saving the marriage. He doesn’t want to save the marriage. He just wants someone to control. The wife often wants to save the marriage. And so she can be convinced to change. They can’t convince him to change, and I think about all the marriage books that Christian women read desperate to find the formula to change their husband.
They read Power of a Praying Wife, and they pray so hard. I really had a problem with some of these Christian books, because it had a whole list of husbands that can be changed through prayer. And abusiveness was one of the things that you could pray against. And it’s like, no, honey, if he’s abusive, you don’t just pray against it. You get help. And I would just say to desperate women. I know you want to save your marriage.
I know you want things to be better, but please don’t think prayer is the answer. Prayer is the answer to helping you find peace and health. Yes, but God doesn’t force someone else to change. It gives us all free will. You can’t pray your husband to health. God won’t force your husband to change. What God can do, I think, is give you strength, fortitude, wisdom, insight, friends and support. And all kinds of stuff to navigate these roads that are ahead of you.
Pray For Deliverance
Sheila: But I think so often we’re searching for that magic formula. That magic prayer, that magic way to behave that’s going to change everything. And it just isn’t there. So ultimately, we have to decide, what does emotional health look like for me? And where am I likely to find it? That’s the scary thing. I know, but I hope we don’t add guilt to the mix where you feel like it’s a failure. If you start saying, no, I’m not going to initiate it anymore. You know, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad wife.
Anne: A good wife sets the bar high for an emotionally healthy, happy marriage. And I’m going to make my way toward that. And if you want to do that, fine, if not, I’m on my way to health, regardless of what you’re going to do. That is what the world’s best wife would do. When it comes to praying. I always recommend women pray for deliverance. I think that’s the best thing to pray for. Because then God can metaphorically part the Red Sea, and you can walk through.
It’s not going to be fun. You’re going to have a lot of opposition, but God can deliver you and make your way out. And in some women’s cases, the deliverance from the abuse may come in the form of their husband changing. It might, but we don’t know what the deliverance is going to look like. I do think deliverance is a prayer God can answer.
Sheila: Exactly, I love that. That is so good.
Encouragement For Women: Speak Up
Sheila: And, as someone who talks to the other side of this whole issue. How do we get other religious leaders, Christian leaders and society leaders to listen? Because your audience has been crying out for years, and people aren’t listening. And I just want people to know that I’m trying to listen and want a healthy message to get out there. But as a little encouragement, your voices are strong.
And I know it feels like everybody is against you. And if things fall apart, you’re going to be blamed, and that often is the case. But in the broader scheme of things, we are seeing people start to wake up to this stuff. So I just want to tell people who, maybe you’re on the other side of abuse. Like speak up, leave book reviews, leave comments on social media. Like let’s be loud, because I think our voices are making a difference. I really do.
It might be that in your personal circle, no one’s listening, but in the wider circle, they are. And people often have an easier time listening to strangers than their sister, which is terrible. It shouldn’t be that way, but it’s true. And so there’s probably an abused woman out there praying for someone to get through to their pastor or best friend.
You may not get through to your sister, but you might get through to someone else’s sister. And they might get through to your sister.
Finding Emotional Health & Safety
Sheila: So the more we speak up to the strangers, the more we help ourselves in a way. So just be encouraged. I think God does see you, and God’s doing an amazing thing. He’s shaking everything. I think He’s going to war for his daughters. Who have been mistreated, and so take heart and courage. We just want emotional health and safety for people.
And if you’re not in that kind of community, then I hope you can find one. Because they are out there, even if they are hard to find, but they are out there. Again, the saddest part is that we’ve stolen God from people.
Because when we tell women, God wants you to give your husband it when he wants it. God wants you to perform sexually, so he doesn’t watch pornography. We make God into our abuser, and we make God into the one who is coercing us. So I hope that as women go through the process of deconstructing all these messages. They will realize that was never God’s voice, and that that message hurt God too. Because he never, ever wanted you to feel that.
Anne: Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate all your hard work and willingness to stand for the truth.
Sheila: Thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure.
This Is Why Emotional Abuse Is So Hard To See – Macie’s Story
Sep 13, 2022
Emotional abuse is so hard to see. Macie joins Anne Blythe, M.Ed. to talk about why emotional abuse isn’t taken seriously.
Most people associate abuse with yelling, screaming, and violence. However, emotional abuse is often covert.
The “quiet” nature of emotional abuse is so hard to detect. Emotional abuse, including betrayal, can make victims feel crazy and overly sensitive when they try to put a finger on what’s happening to them.
Emotional Abuse Is So Hard To See Because It’s Invisible
Grooming is an insidious tactic of emotional abuse. Because emotional abusers are often charismatic, charming, and master manipulators, they’re able to manipulate victims to earn their trust.
Abusers condition victims to trust the abuser far more than they trust themselves. Part of healing from relational abuse is a victim re-learning to trust her own intuition.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Supports Victims of Emotional and Psychological Abuse
The confusion, anger, sorrow, and grief that accompany emotional and psychological abuse can be devastating. No woman should have to process the realities of abuse alone.
That is why the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets daily in multiple time zones. So that victims have a safe space to process trauma, share stories, ask questions, and make connections with other victims. Join today and receive the support, validation, and compassion that you deserve as you begin healing from emotional and psychological abuse.
Transcript: This Is Why Emotional Abuse Is So Hard To See
Anne: We have a member of our community sharing her story today. We’re going to call her Macie. I’m so thankful to all of you who have shared your story. It takes a lot of courage, and it humbles me to hear your stories and I appreciate you.
Macie is a single mom. And let’s start with your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?
Macie: I did not. I actually did not recognize or was even made aware. I just thought our marriage was normal, happy, healthy, that he was such a great guy. And one of the most selfless people I had ever met. And that was pretty difficult when I started to understand what my marriage really was.
He had texted that he wanted a divorce. And not knowing the magnitude of his betrayal and all those choices that he was making. Just the stonewalling, the communication dysfunction, the emotional abuse is so hard. But in my mind, that was not even possible. And because of the type of abuse.
It was the withdrawal and not communicate, control that way. Versus the yelling or control by physical demeaning. It was never like that ever. So the emotional abuse is so hard to see until I actually had the truth of the whole story. To see, oh, now I can tell where the manipulation and the blame shifting and all that was taking place.
Anne: This type of abuse, it’s not overt. Not like screaming and yelling in your face. And people don’t have the education to see it, and many therapists don’t. You’re in this relationship and you don’t know what’s going on, but you know something’s wrong.
Attempts to Establish Safety
Anne: During that time, what types of things did you do to try to establish safety and peace in your home before you found out about the pornography use and infidelity?
Macie: Again, we had what I thought was a healthy, happy marriage. I feel like a lot of it was, a lot of communication with the children. We both were on the same page about talking to them about pornography. We agreed we wanted to talk to them about it, just like we did drugs or alcohol or anything else. And we both come from families where we have a predisposition for addiction.
And so we would explain to them, it didn’t matter what. It could be something. We don’t know what it is, so we need to abstain from many things, including pornography. So I feel like we would check in as a family a lot. We had a really open communication about sex, about social media. We had our kids sign contracts, phones were away.
I feel like there was a lot of communication within the home surrounding specifically pornography. Which I feel like is ironic, now I know the truth of what he did. I do feel like that even on a spiritual level, we pray as a family, go to church, that aspect too of having the spirit with you. So those were some of the things we did. The emotional abuse is so hard now, understanding that he viewed pornography and violated my home.
Underlying Insecurities
Anne: Mm hmm. You’re talking about pornography, you’re talking about healthy sexuality, thinking he is on the same page with you. And really, it was all just a facade. Emotional abuse is so hard. Did you have any sense then, like deep down, that something was wrong? Or did everything seem fine to you?
Macie: A year into our marriage, granted we got married in the 90s when the internet was really early. So I found pornography, and at that point I felt super hurt, betrayed and cheated on. But I feel like I never saw or knew of any pornography use from him until the actual discovery of his work phone. But I would have kind of this underlying insecurity. Because there was a lot of lying going on. And I never could pinpoint the purpose.
And I learned that a part of the abuse blamed me for his lies. Because my reaction would be so much that I would maybe get too angry. So he was justified in lying to me. And it just didn’t make sense. Some of the things he would lie to me about. And I do feel like there was a lack of empathy and emotional disconnect, especially in our communication.
I now see that there was a lot of withdrawal, and it took withdraw, withdraw, and then I’d finally corner him to communicate. Even if it was just me feeling overwhelmed or stressed or that I needed extra help. And it ended up an explosion, and then that’s where it led towards the end to the stonewalling.
Emotional abuse is so hard: Financial Control & Lies
Macie: I had to literally text him in the home to say, hey, can you meet with me so that we can talk? And I didn’t want to overwhelm him with a conversation too long, so extremely unhealthy. There were also situations with money that didn’t make sense. But he was in charge of the finances. And when I tried to get involved, he didn’t want me to. But then it was a problem that I wasn’t involved.
So again, I see that he had control over that money, and he could do a lot of the things he did. Because I was not aware yet. He blamed me for not knowing what was going on. And several gaps in time, he traveled a lot. He missed many flights. Or they bumped him. And again, it was him saying, hey, I’m getting bumped. So we can have a flight that we can use later for us. But really, he used it for other purposes, and disregard for me.
I did not feel like a priority, and I had an injury experience. I think that was the first time I realized how unempathetic he was to me. He just looked at me like I’m leaving town and had a broken ankle. He’s like, I’m out of here for the week and good luck. And I just cried thinking how can this be possible? Emotional abuse is so hard.
Understanding emotional abuse
Macie: I have these busy children, and what is going on? I felt like he had changed, but I could never pinpoint it. I feel like if I tried to ask questions, it was always I’m this simple person. It’s you, and so I just knew I had to work hard on me all the time. Because everything was falling apart because of me. He was simple and didn’t require a lot, and he wasn’t mean and angry at me. And he just laid low and kept the peace.
He wanted me to tell him what to do, then he couldn’t mess up and I wouldn’t get upset. I did not like that dynamic in our marriage either. Because I felt like this dominant person, but I want to be a team though. I want to work together. Well again, with the withdrawal and communication. When I tried to muster up the courage to talk to him, it would end with me feeling like I don’t value him. And how hard he works, and all the things he does around the house. And I just need to be content with how things are.
I now see how sad I was not even allowed, or feel like I could even cry in our relationship. Like to him that it was that emotionally disconnected for me. I gave him all I was: my good, my bad, my stress, my anxiety, wanting to work with him together as a union. Then to see that, not only that, but also to see that he used my strengths against me to do what he wanted to do. Each episode of emotional abuse is so hard to see. When I understood the truth of the emotional abuse and saw that was what he was doing.
gaslighting & self-doubt
Anne: Many people don’t understand that stonewalling and not talking about things are forms of controlling the conversation. And people will think, well, he just can’t talk about his emotions, or now’s not the right time. Those type of abusive behaviors are controlling. They’re controlling the conversation, they’re controlling the way you can communicate. And that makes it very difficult, emotional abuse is so hard.
You can’t be on the same team when one person’s goal is to shut things down, and make sure she doesn’t find out about things. He’s gaslighting you, and so you’re thinking, well, the problem is me, so I need to love, serve and forgive more. When did you realize that this isn’t working? Did you ever get a sense before he filed for divorce? That, man, I am loving, serving, forgiving, and things just aren’t getting that much better.
Macie: I don’t think I saw that until I discovered his work phone and saw the truth for what it was. Because in my mind, you don’t give up. Like you fight in a marriage, we’re imperfect people, we accept each other for our differences, we work hard. And I was just trying to do that. I again would go to him with a pad of paper and have him give me a list of things that I would need to work on. And I was just trying to love him more and value him more at work, and never ask questions when he traveled.
I do feel like he used those things again. I’m going through therapy working on me, and instead it helped him do what he wanted better.
emotional abuse is so hard: Discovery of the Work Phone
Macie: I mean, he lived two lives. So it made it easier to be like, well, okay, now I’m a good husband and a great dad. And so she’s happy, Which means she’s not going to question any of this other behavior. So it wasn’t until actual discovery that I realized his layer of lies was actually to get what he wanted. And that was really disturbing for me. Emotional abuse is so hard. Especially when you look at 21 years, you know?
Anne: So you’ve got this marriage where something’s not quite right, you’re working harder, you’re trying. Tell me how you found the work phone. Talk about what led up to that, that day.
Macie: I think that was one of the things you talk about little red flags, things going off. I did feel like he was being unfaithful. I felt like pornography was involved, but simultaneously I trusted him. He was a spiritual person. So to me whenever I had those feelings, I thought I must be the worst person for even assuming or thinking any of these thoughts.
And as I worked, I believed he was also working on our marriage together. Because he didn’t want to go to couples therapy. We’re both individually working on ourselves. And one of the things was to make a date night together or spend more time together, but there were still some inconsistencies there. And I felt like I was definitely pulling more of the weight.
Unfortunately, on Christmas morning at two in the morning, I happened to just roll over. And saw his phone, and I could see the truth of a conversation he had with a girl he had been on the phone with through the night.
Discovering the Betrayal
Macie: And again, the betrayal of understanding the truth, I thought Christmas Eve was dedicated to the family and us. The truth is he was communicating with this person. He had been with her the week previous. He was planning to be with her after. But additionally, it wasn’t just her. When I went out of that conversation, just to see the magnitude of all that was on his phone was unbelievable and overwhelming. Emotional abuse is so hard.
I could not even believe he was capable of that, this was the same person? It was unfortunate, because of Christmas morning. I mean, that’s a day you celebrate every year, and you have so many memories attached. So I had to keep it together. I chose not to say anything. I wanted my children to experience Christmas morning as the best it could be.
Because I was super emotional, which again, as I talked about in our relationship, in our marriage, we had to be okay. So my kids didn’t see me cry ever. And so when mom’s emotional and crying, they’re like, what is going on? But Christmas morning happened.
Confrontation and Aftermath
Macie: We spent time with family. And it wasn’t until later that I actually confronted him. And everything exploded from there. My goal was to wait until the next day. But that just didn’t really happen. And so it is unfortunate for my children that I feel like a day that we celebrate, and you have memories that will never go away.
It’s like, how was your Christmas? Because that was the question following the discovery that I would get asked by every person. And it’s like, do you want to know the truth about how my Christmas was? How was your Christmas? So it was just that constant trigger.
Anne: It’s very traumatic for it to happen on holidays. It’s terrible. Emotional abuse is so hard. Hopefully, this Christmas can be the anniversary of your freedom.
Macie: Yes, and I’ve talked with the kids. So how do we embrace? I do feel like the kids triggers are different than mine. And just because their life circumstances and memories are different, and also what they know. But I feel like we’ve talked openly about what we can do, and I am really happy for them that Christmas, even Christmas morning, was great.
I think the difference changed in Christmas break for them. And that will be interesting to see how to deal with that. Because mom and dad never fought. And now dad’s arguing, and he’s this new person that we’ve never seen before with this anger. So it was a confusing time for them. And then he moved out, and again, they were confused. Like mom and dad don’t fight, and now dad’s moving out.
Emotional abuse is so hard: Reflection on Personal Strength
Macie: It was for them because the emotional abuse is so hard for them to process what was going on.
Anne: And shocking, probably
Macie: Shocking, absolutely shocking.
Anne: You’re an amazing, smart, capable woman who is able to plan and make things happen, who graduated from college. Like, you’re no dummy. And same thing with me, and same thing with all the women who listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We are capable, amazing, brave, strong women. Can you tell me your thoughts on that now that you know what you went through?
Macie: Yeah, that’s a great point. I actually get asked a lot. Did you really not ever know? Like, you had no idea. And I am almost embarrassed to say I didn’t. And a lot of that was that I trusted so much in him. But I did not allow myself to trust in myself. Like, when I had my own doubts, I discounted it so easily because of my trust in him.
I also think because of the type of abuse, he’s not this loud yelling person. Like I feel like emotional abuse is so hard to wrap your mind around the idea of abuse being the ability to not communicate. Like you said, his control was lack of communicating information to me. I didn’t ever know exactly what was going on.
Sometimes even for work, I didn’t know exactly what he was doing. And I felt like those were his lay low, just kind of keep the peace, keep her happy enough. But made it really hard for me to say, well, no, I was not in an abusive situation.
Compounding Lies & Realization of Cruelty
Macie: He never came at me. He was supportive to me, and would even encourage me to do things. He never said a mean thing to me ever. How am I in an abusive situation? And. I think that’s when it goes back to the lies. I just see there were so many lies. And over time, and even when he would lie to me, and I would forgive him, then it would happen again. And I felt like it was this compound of lies that I was just trying to process. Like, why are you lying to me about this? If you’re lying to me about this, what else is there?
Anne: You’re saying, he never said a mean thing to me. But he did, he told you it was your fault. He told you that something was wrong with you. That is cruel. But it doesn’t feel mean, because you think it’s your fault. So many women say that. Oh, he was nice. And I’m thinking, that’s the meanest thing you could do to someone, is tell them that they’ve got a problem when it’s your problem.
Macie: I have told him that he did financially, physically, spiritually, emotionally, like all the betrayal choices he made that harm our family. The one that is the most hurtful are the times he saw me depressed. He saw me feel inadequate. And he saw me crying and I had come to him asking what it is, what’s wrong and what’s going on? He knew what he was doing, but allowed me to believe it was me. And that is so hurtful. It was like a dagger to the heart.
DARVO & Manipulation
Macie: And then to take my strengths. Like I’m a hard worker, I want to do hard things and fix things. I would help try to problem solve with him. He was so tired. So it’d be like what’s going on? Well now I know it’s because he was out all night long, he was never sleeping. But I’m thinking what’s going on? How can we problem solve? And he would just allow me to try to help fix things. And I was running on this treadmill that was spinning so fast.
I see where had we gone to couple’s therapy, I would have sat there and been like, I’m doing all these things wrong and I need to work harder. It would not have been healthy. I know you’re familiar with Darvo.
Anne: Yeah, really quick with Darvo we have some amazing infographics that circulate around our social media on Instagram and Facebook. So if you’re not following us there, please do, because I love to interact with women on social media and hear your comments. So if you do follow us, please comment. Let me know what you think of those infographics and if they’re helpful to you.
Macie: When I look at that, it makes more sense to me. Because I would approach him with something that didn’t make sense. And then he would attack me as if like, he couldn’t believe I would believe that. He would defend himself and no, no, no. And then I’d start to feel guilty that I was accusing him or curious or insecure about something.
Emotional abuse is so hard: No Validation, Just Blame
Macie: Then it would turn around. He became the victim. And suddenly, I was the bad person, because I had come to him to communicate. The communication started with me and ended with me being the bad person. I’d walk away being like, how is this that I just went to him to see how I need help. That I am struggling? Yet I come away feeling like I’m an ungrateful wife. I don’t value him and recognize all the things he’s doing, so it would just come back to me.
Then I’d say, okay, what can I do to make it so that he knows that I value and respect all these things, yet I didn’t feel safe. I didn’t trust him. I didn’t feel like I was a priority and was not validated. Instead, it was well, that’s your fault. That’s your fault that you feel that way. I’m a simple person. Like literally he would say to me so often, I am a simple person and I do not require a lot where you dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
Anne: You’re like, no, you actually require texting seven women, so no, you are very, very complex.
Macie: Yes, I do not know how he was able to organize all that, honestly.
Anne: So for you, what is one of the most difficult aspects looking back on your marriage now that you know the truth about the abuse?
Macie: I know he knew the truth of what he did. I got to a point where I was so down and depressed that I actually had to go into a surgery.
Feeling like I needed to go
Macie: In my mind, I had made a deal with God that I just needed to be taken. My life to be done, because that was, to me, the easiest way to remove myself from the emotional abuse is so hard, and the situation of my kids having to deal with divorce. And that I was this problem. That if I could just remove myself, then everybody would be so much better off.
And I left letters for my kids to read. In my mind, I was totally content with being done. And when I came out of surgery, I knew that I was going to fight, I was going to fight for my family, and I was going to do everything I could. And when I found out the truth that, while I was in surgery. He had taken money from our retirement and was putting it in a bank account for a woman he was financially supporting.
That to me just blew my mind that I was ready to be done with my life. I was crying on my way up, he knew I was hurting, that I felt so bad about myself, yet he continued that behavior. And that was my low, low point in recognition. Wow, you put those two pieces together, and you see there was a major disconnect. It’s hard, because I know that there were so many lies in our marriage. Emotional abuse is so hard for me to believe anything was ever true.
I believed it was good and there were some good times, but I now know that those good times were the buttering up so that he could keep me happy enough. Signing up for a girl’s trip for me, oh, what a great husband. And that’s so nice.
Grooming To Keep me content
Anne: But the truth was it was grooming. It’s what it was. He was grooming you on purpose to throw you off his scent.
Macie: Yeah, that is so hurtful. I got so duped in believing this person loved me, when I don’t believe there was love in this marriage. How did that happen? And how did I not know? So trying to make sense of how as a smart, capable, independent, person, I thought I had a healthy marriage. How did I miss so much? To not know that that wasn’t love that was happening in my marriage? I felt like I was loving and giving. But it was not reciprocated. And that is emotional abuse is so hard to understand.
Anne: Yeah, but it was just for him like a cover. For you, you were his facade.
Macie: It blows my mind that he is still the victim.
Anne: Pornography is abusive. But then he had all these other abusive behaviors. The control of the conversation, you’ve got sexual coercion going on because he’s not telling you that he’s having sex with other people. You know, there’s so much going on there that is seriously sexually abusive, which is physical abuse. So technically, your husband physically, emotionally, sexually and psychologically abused, And people just can’t comprehend that level of abuse.
Macie: Right, it’s mind blowing to believe, like you said, as the person I know I am. That I lived that, believing it was healthy. Like I looked at my parents and their relationship, so in my mind, I was aiming to try to do that. Even though I felt like in my communication to him. I didn’t feel like we were a team.
emotional abuse is so hard: Spiritual Journey & Reflection
Macie: I felt like I was more dominant, because I tried to get him to help or communicate with me. I felt like I was constantly chasing him to try to get him to communicate with me.
Anne: He wanted you to do that. He liked that because you were taking the responsibility for the entire relationship in that case.
Macie: I was already doing everything.
Anne: So, during this time, you consider yourself a spiritual person. You’re having prayers with your husband, you’re attending church, you’re reading the scriptures. Then you find out that God has not expressly told you in so many words, you’re in an abusive relationship. You realize that for 21 years, you were not privy to the truth. How did that affect your relationship with God?
Macie: Yeah, that’s a great question. For me, there were a lot of moments along the way. As I’ve reflected on the truth. Where I can see God’s hand to protect me and even prepare me in certain ways. I had an injury that happened that at the time. My husband traveled all the time. And I was devastated. My children were extremely busy. I felt helpless and felt like, why did this happen? This is so frustrating for me. Could I have not had some inspiration to not go?
It was playing softball, and I slid into third and broke my ankles. Could I have not had something to not do that? But I now see looking back that that was in many ways, God’s way of making me stop In my tracks.
God’s Hand in Protection & Strength Through Adversity
Macie: Because there were times when I felt red flags, but I never followed through with it. I just discounted it, but then I stopped and actually looked at my life. And started to see the truth of what it really was. I can’t deny that I felt God so present in my life. Not saying, hey, you’re in this abusive relationship.
But I even lost my mom. She died of cancer when I was a teenager. And I feel like even that experience prepared me to have some different strength and perspective that I even taught my kids that helped prepare for this heartache. You know, and understanding, and so I can see where, even through the divorce, there were several things that came my way.
And to come across Betrayal Trauma Recovery specifically. Because as you know, sometimes when you’re in it, sometimes a normal therapist, you’re just not getting the right information. So getting the right resources. And I feel like all those things were huge blessings. God blessing me and blessing my children and giving me strength as a mom.
Just giving myself a little leeway. This emotional abuse is so hard, I’ve had to lean on other people, and that’s been a hard thing. But I’ve been so appreciative. I’m so thankful for your resources through BTR. It’s amazing, I just cannot get enough information.
Trusting in God and Self
Macie: I believe God knows me better than myself. Even though what I’m going through seems unfair, I look around me and see so many people going through unfair situations. And I’m thankful for believing in something bigger than myself, that helps give me strength.
And I also feel like trusting in myself as I move forward in my life. Because my husband betrayed me and I don’t trust myself. I’m working through that, and that’s why I’m thankful for all your resources to validate what I’m feeling. And to build me and help me move forward as a broken, strong warrior.
Anne: Healing, a healing strong warrior, and you will. Thank you so much for sharing your story today,
Macie: Thanks for having me.
How Can We Protect Children Online? Important Steps To Take
Sep 06, 2022
Melea Stevens, from the National Center of Exploitation, and Anne Blythe, M.Ed. talk about how we can protect children online. With kids spending increasing amounts of time on smartphones, tablets, and computers, ensuring their safety requires tools, education, and awareness.
Because the foundation of all abuse is emotional manipulation, teach children the 19 different types of emotional abuse. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to learn more.
Educating children about online safety is crucial. Teach them to recognize potential dangers, like sharing personal information, talking to strangers, or clicking on suspicious links. Encouraging open communication means they’ll feel comfortable coming to you if something seems wrong.
Transcript: How Can We Protect Children Online?
Anne: I have Melea Stevens on today’s episode. She is a board member of the National Center on Exploitation.
Melea, welcome.
Melea: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be with you.
Anne: Most people don’t realize that hardcore explicit content is illegal because they are so normalized.
Melea: Yes, Anne, you’re absolutely right. Society normalizes harmful content. Most people don’t realize that these easily accessible acts are actually illegal. At least the extreme forms, which are often what it entails today. The only legal aspects are very limited and defined differently.
Up until the early nineties, our Department of Justice was enforcing federal obscenity laws that applied to these situations. But we’ve grown very lax, if not completely stopped, enforcing our existing laws. So at this point, it’s rampant. Those engaging in these acts know they can do whatever they want because we’re not enforcing existing laws. Because of this, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to protect children online.
Anne: All forms of online exploitation are abusive. They hurt people. Whether you’re participating in it, actively engaging in it, or in a relationship with someone actively engaging in it, it’s going to hurt everyone involved.
Alabama’s Resolution To Protect Children Online
Anne: You wrote an article entitled, Alabama’s Resolution to Declare P__ography a Public Health Crisis is Urgently Needed. Did that pass?
Melea: Yes, it did.
Anne: Awesome. In that article, you mentioned the heartbreaking experiences you’ve had working with children impacted by online explicit content as young as six to 11 years old. Would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your experiences?
Melea: Yeah, so over the course of 20 years, I’ve seen the devastating effects of this content on adults, individual lives, marriages, and as we may touch on later, these types of exploitation. It’s an epidemic. As I’ve interacted with countless individuals and couples struggling due to this content, I’ve witnessed the deep pain and destruction it causes. I don’t specialize in kids. But protecting children online should be a top priority for everyone.
The Case Of A Young Girl’s Exposure
Melea: A little girl who was six years old was first impacted by harmful online content at the neighbor’s house. It’s so frustrating that we can’t protect children online all the time.
After one exposure, she and the little girl down the street started acting out. The families decided, if we just don’t talk about it, maybe they’ll forget about it and it’ll go away. But it didn’t go away. She became more and more aggressive.
It escalated to the point where she performed different behaviors she had witnessed. Very violent behaviors on her baby sibling barely two years old. This alarmed her parents. They continued to think, okay, maybe if we just remove her from these situations and try to monitor her, it’ll stop.
But she got in trouble at school because she stole phones from teachers’ purses so she could access harmful material. This little girl’s feet don’t hit the floor.
Her affect is very flat—almost eerily flat. And her parents told me, “She doesn’t bond the same, she’s not the same child. She seems cold, withdrawn, and isolated. And we don’t know what to do.”
When I talked to the little girl, I carefully asked her questions because I wasn’t sure how she would react. Then, without hesitation, she said, “I don’t see why my parents are bringing me here.”
“I don’t see what’s wrong with it. You should be able to do whatever you want, whenever you want.”
It’s so alarming what happens when we fail to protect children online.
How Can We Protect Children Online? A Young Boy’s Struggle
Melea: There was an 11-year-old boy who got into trouble because of what he was doing at night. His parents didn’t know when he first saw explicit online content, but he figured out that the neighbor had magazines about it. So, at night, he would sneak out of his house and look in the neighbor’s mailbox. Eventually, it got worse. He started breaking into the neighbor’s house because he couldn’t find what he wanted at home.
The neighbor didn’t have kids, just adults, but the boy would go inside and use their computer to look for the content he wanted. This happened more than once. The neighbors got frustrated, so they started calling the boy’s parents. They would say, “Your son is on our computer again. Come get him, please!”
So these things really opened my eyes to the fact that this material truly hijacks the brain of any user, but especially a child. We need to do everything we can to protect children from online abuse. And it provides miseducation and sets them on a trajectory of life that is extremely problematic. And it was heartbreaking.
Anne: Explicit content is abusive. It’s always going to be an abuse issue. And when it comes to children, they’re not abusers, but are being abused by the online material.
Melea: Showing a child anything about pornography hurts them emotionally. Their brains aren’t ready to understand those images or figure out what they mean. This confuses them and takes over their thoughts and feelings. As a result, their brain and body react in ways they can’t control. To deal with the trauma, they may feel forced to act out. This is why it’s so important to protect children online.
Recognizing Red Flags In Children
So when you have “child on child” harmful behavior, it’s a trauma response to what they’ve been exposed to.
Anne: So speaking of these children, you pointed out that parents noticed changes in their children. What red flags should parents know to look for?
Melea: Things that they might notice with children exposed to explicit content may become more isolated, withdrawn, or depressed. They may become sullen, and they may have a bad attitude towards other friends, playmates, especially people of opposite gender.
They may become more aggressive. You may see acting out that, you know, is age-inappropriate, or peeping. If you look at their browser history, if they’re on the internet and have been erasing the browser history. Or if you see them withdrawing to the bathroom for a long time, locking doors for extended periods, and taking devices with them. Those are just things that might raise a flag.
Anne: I think that affect you talked about with that poor young victim where she wasn’t very emotional, right? That’s what you’re talking about when you say a flat affect is also a red flag.
Melea: From my understanding, the exposure to explicit content happened at the neighbor’s house. The little girl down the street, her father was a consumer. There were no filters on any devices, and it was readily available at the home. The father confessed that, and the friend was already acting out due to explicit content.
Anne: Because that statement, “I should do what I want to whoever I want”, is a pattern that we see. People who act irresponsibly in dangerous ways say things like that.
Protect Children Online From Exploitation
Melea: Absolutely. Explicit content sends the message that doing what you want to people is a right. It’s such a degrading, violent, racist that it wears down any sense of right and wrong, any sense of boundaries.
Anne: Yeah, you can add misogynist to that list, of course.
Melea: Yeah, a hundred percent.
Anne: Explicit content is documentation of exploitation. It’s filmed documentation of abuse and exploitation. Tell me about your experience with victims of exploitation. What has that taught you about the dangers of explicit content?
Melea: Around the same time I saw these children, I started meeting survivors of exploitation for the first time. Two of the survivors told me how someone forced them to make harmful content. One of them was a young boy. The people who made them create this content tried to make it look like they were happy doing it. This experience shocked me and helped me understand how people create and demand this kind of harmful content. It is so important to protect children online from exploitation and viewing others exploitation.
Right now, there’s a lot of news about websites like this. These websites are known for sharing content about cheating, and they make money in harmful ways. They allow terrible and violent content that clearly hurts people. And they profit from it. It’s upsetting to think about. Every year, we have a big meeting at the National Center on Exploitation.
Protecting Children Online: The Hidden Impact of Harmful Content
Melea: A few years ago, one man admitted cheating on his partner and hurting many people. Then, he explained how he tricked and pressured others into situations they didn’t want. For years, he told himself it wasn’t a big deal. But finally, he realized his actions caused pain and ruined the lives of those around him.
He admitted that he hurt his partners on purpose by wearing them down emotionally. He made them feel like they caused the problems. None of the people he hurt came back to thank him or say he taught them lessons. Instead, many of them dealt with deep emotional pain for a long time. Relationships fell apart and never got fixed. Again and again, we hear stories like this. People who use explicit content cause emotional betrayal, and their behavior harms people.
https://youtube.com/shorts/1pg8oHx0v3A
His Emotionally Abusive Behaviors
Anne: If you want to stop the pain caused by cheating, the first step is to see how much harm it does. Cheating hurts more than one person—it affects everyone involved in big ways. It also leaves lasting scars. Some people might say cheating isn’t a big deal or try to make excuses for it, but they ignore how much it hurts others. That’s why it’s so important to take action right away. You can get help, from the best betrayal trauma resources, to break this harmful cycle. With help, you can also find and fix the deeper problems that cause this behavior.
Melea: Exactly! Some people say, “Cheating is a choice, and they have the right to make their own decisions.” But even in relationships that claim to be open, like polyamory or open marriages, it causes problems. Often, someone realizes later that they were hurt by lies or trickery paraded as honesty or freedom. Words like “ethical non-monogamy” sometimes hide cheating and help people dodge responsibility for the pain they caused.
Online Explicit Content Results In Deception
Anne: I often say explicit is the documentation of deception. It’s real betrayal, not just in private, but it effects families and communities. And not only is this emotional harm documented, but people actively justify it.
Melea: It’s like watching emotional harm happen right in front of you. I remember one story where a person shared how their friends cheered them on for their actions.
Anne: And people often assume that explicit content is harmless or only affects the immediate parties involved. They think it’s just a personal choice or that the other person consented to it fully. But that’s not true at all—it’s a dangerous misconception.
Melea: Yes, over the past 25 years, studies have shown that people who hurt others in their relationships often cheat. The types of habits that lead to a lot of harm, that’s why we should protect children online.
The Brain’s Response To Explicit Content
There was no remorse, even after being in prison for an extended period. And that’s disturbing. Studies demonstrate that continual engagement in explicit content damages the pleasure or reward pathways of the brain, similar to the effects of illicit drugs like heroin or cocaine. It actually causes the gray matter to atrophy and shrink. Which is why it’s so important to protect children from ever being exposed online.
Experts explain that the frontal lobe of your brain controls things like kindness, caring for others, and empathy. But when someone keeps making harmful choices, like being unfaithful, this part of the brain can shrink. As it shrinks, empathy fades. This means people start seeing others as things to use, not as people to care about. Over time, these bad choices actually change how the brain works. This creates unhealthy habits, breaks trust, and makes it harder to have real, loving relationships.
Anne: I often say, if you’re an alcoholic, you abuse alcohol. If you’re a drug addict, you abuse drugs. If you’re engaging in watching explicit content, you harm relationships and people. It’s a destructive cycle.
Melea: Absolutely.
Anne: And it’s an issue that can’t be ignored.
Melea: Explicit content affects not just the individuals directly involved, but often their families, too. It’s something that many don’t fully understand, especially when it escalates quickly into patterns of deceit and betrayal. For some, this behavior can spiral into obsessive thoughts and damaging actions, consuming their time, energy, and emotional well-being.
Protecting Children From A Cycle of Harm
Anne: And on the other side of this, for their family members, the effects are profound. Children experience neglect and a lack of empathy from the parent consumed by pornography. For loved ones, this often feels like emotional abandonment or abuse. The addict is caught in their cycle, and their family members are trapped in the ripple effects of that cycle.
Melea: Exactly. Often, when couples come in, the husband has been cheating for a long time. The wife feels frazzled, cries a lot, and doesn’t know what to do next. When she finally says, “I can’t do this anymore,” it usually means she has been carrying all the emotional weight in the relationship. Her husband focuses more on his cheating than on her, so she feels neglected and abandoned. As a result, she keeps thinking she’s not good enough, not pretty enough, or not wanted.
She faces constant psychological, emotional, and verbal abuse because of the betrayal and distance in her marriage. Meanwhile, her husband ignores how much his behavior hurts her because he believes it is normal. At the same time, the children feel the impact for years. Many kids who grow up in families affected by explicit content struggle as they get older. They often deal with low self-esteem and carry harmful lessons they learned from their parents’ actions.
A Public Health Crisis, How Can We Protect Children Online?
Anne: And that’s what makes this a public health crisis. Speaking of that, what do you hope can be achieved through your state’s formal recognition of explicit content as a public health concern?
Melea: I want everyone to understand how much harm explicit content causes. It hurts people, breaks relationships, damages families, and affects our whole society. In Alabama, we have already made progress. We are raising awareness and building momentum for change. Next, I want to bring these efforts into schools. Kids should learn about explicit content alongside lessons on preventing child abuse and trafficking. Teaching this early can make a big difference. Protecting children online starts with education!
We need to enforce laws better to protect vulnerable people. When we protect children online we can help individuals and families heal. This can stop harm before it gets worse. Plus, we need to raise awareness and work together to fight against all kinds of relational harm. Explicit content often leads to bigger problems, so stopping it early can make a big difference. There’s a lot we can do, and it all starts with taking action.
Anne: Many of our listeners are women who have experienced this type of harm in their homes. Their husbands, or ex-husbands, have engaged in this behavior, leaving them to deal with the emotional fallout. What would you encourage them to do if they want to advocate for change in their states or become involved on a legislative or community level?
Melea: I’d encourage them to use their experiences to drive change. Whether it’s speaking out, supporting awareness campaigns, or advocating for better resources to protect children online, every effort matters. Healing is possible, and so is creating a healthier, more compassionate future for families.
The Importance Of Protecting Our Own Children and Families First
Anne: Before you answer this, I want to share something important with the women listening. First, make sure your home is a safe and peaceful place for you. Many women feel scared and unsure in their own homes because of emotional or psychological abuse. This makes them feel stuck and powerless.
They might also worry about how they can make a living. But remember, you are not alone, and there are steps you can take to find safety and support.Instead of focusing only on stopping explicit content outside the home, start by making sure you and your family are safe inside your home. Your first priority is to create a space where everyone feels emotionally, mentally, and physically secure. When your home is safe, you protect yourself and your children from this kind of harm. This is the most important step, and it makes a big difference for everyone in your family. So, begin at home, and take care of what you can control first.
Protect Children Online By Focusing On Safety
Melea: Amen.
Anne: Do that first. And then if you’re like, I want to write some legislation like Melea, what would you say if they’re ready for advocacy?
Melea: I totally agree that stabilizing is the first and most important step. After that, turning their pain into action can be really powerful. They can use their voice to make a big difference and become agents of change. It hurts people, and there are many ways they can help fight against it. For example, they can work to get their state to declare explicit materials a public health crisis. So far, 15 states have already done this. It’s a great way to take action and create change!
Protect Children Online: Community Involvement & Awareness
Melea: But if their state hasn’t passed it yet, and they’d like to promote it, I would urge them to contact the National Center on Exploitation to the portions that talk about the public health crisis related to harmful content. And to familiarize themselves with the facts. It takes a good bit of consistent energy and focus to work with legislators. It is worth it, because it can be deeply harmful, and addressing it is an important process.
We worked with many local leaders, including anti-trafficking groups. We also worked with people from both political parties because this is an issue everyone cares about. The Senate agreed and voted to pass it, with everyone saying yes. I learned so much during this process. There are so many ways to help! For example, you can raise awareness at your school, church, or even in your neighborhood. Plus, there’s a super easy presentation you can share right at home. Let’s all work together to make a difference!
If they want to raise awareness among other moms and dads, the website defendyoungminds.org could be used to spread awareness and start dialogue. Churches and schools desperately need our voices to protect children online.
Anne:NCOSE has some amazing initiatives. I spoke at the summit. I’ve been to the summit twice and had a good experience there. If you join their newsletter, that’s a good place to start.
Melea: Yes. I would encourage your listeners to consider joining our summit this summer.
Anne: You mentioned P__nhub, which is our arch nemesis.
Support Initiative to Shut Down P__nhub
Anne: There is a current initiative to shut down P__nhub. Can you talk about that?
Melea: Yes, there’s an initiative by Layla Micklewaite with Exodus Cry. She’s their abolition strategist. It’s raising awareness about trafficking within industries that fuel explicit content, and they’re gaining tremendous traction. They’ve had over a million signatures, and we would love your audience to join us in this effort to stop harming children online.
Anne: Wouldn’t that be a miracle?
Melea: Yes.
Why Explicit Content Contributes To Infidelity
Anne: Many women in our community pray for a miracle. They hope their husbands can change, almost like being brought back to life, like Lazarus. These men seem spiritually lost. They show no emotion, no compassion, and no empathy. Their actions often harm their families and put everyone at risk. Because of this, so many women keep praying for a miracle. But no one really knows what those miracles will look like.
I think shutting down P__nhub would be a big answer to the prayers of so many women. These women pray for their homes, their husbands, and their families. But I also want them to see that they are part of something bigger. Their prayers are making a difference, and together, they are helping. For many of the victims I know, things got really hard. Their marriages ended in divorce, and they still face emotional and mental pain. A lot of this pain comes from the problems caused by cheating.
There’s no simple or immediate end in sight for their recovery process. But if you can’t see change in your own life, sometimes it helps to take a step back and observe the victories happening. And know that you haven’t been forgotten—you can be part of a larger movement.
Hopes For DOJ Enforcement To Protect Children Online
Anne: Sometimes that gives a victim hope that there’s a little light at the end of the tunnel.
Melea: It’s exciting and gives me so much hope. For example, when I go to events like the summit, I get to meet other people who care about the same things I do. This makes me feel stronger and more motivated. Also, shutting down P__nhub feels like a dream come true. But even more, I hope the Department of Justice will start enforcing the federal obscenity laws we already have. If they do, it would be a big step forward in protecting children online.
If we fully enforced the laws like we used to, it wouldn’t be on the internet. It wouldn’t show up on cable, satellite, or in the mail because those things are illegal. Instead, it would go back to being in a restricted category, like softcore explicit material. People would only find it in adult bookstores, which are hard to get to. To make this happen, we need the Attorney General to focus on enforcing these laws and take action.
Helping Victims Get Abuse Education
So that is one of my consistent prayers, is that we’ll have someone who’s fearless and will reactivate that section lying dormant.
Anne: Absolutely, that’s another good thing to pray for. Let’s pray for everyone to protect children online. As if you didn’t have enough things to pray for listeners.
Melea: You have to. I think God understands that for sure. Pray without ceasing some more. God hears you. God is moving.
Anne: Malea, thank you so much for being on today’s episode. We appreciate your time.
Melea: It’s my pleasure and honor. Thank you, Anne.
Is Emotional Abuse Considered Domestic Violence? Evie’s Story
Aug 30, 2022
It’s not “just” emotional abuse. Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Yes. Evie, a survivor of domestic violence, shares how talking about all the emotional abuse she suffered amounted to emotional abuse.
Because victims of emotional abuse rarely have visible bruises, that doesn’t mean it’s not domestic violence. Emotional abuse leaves emotional injuries that might be invisible, but still very real.
Domestic Violence Starts With Emotional Abuse (Physical Comes Later)
Tragically, victims of domestic violence always endure emotional abuse. If there’s ever physical abuse, you can know that there is emotional abuse as well. Physical abuse is never a stand-alone issue.
When Emotional Abuse Survivors Share Their Stories, Healing Can Begin
Abusers maintain power and control over their victims by taking away their right to speak the truth. Women find it difficult to even articulate what has happened to them, because the abuser has so subtly and sometimes threateningly taken that right away.
When victims are ready, they often find that sharing their stories, even a little bit at a time, can help them begin their journeys to healing. Many women start sharing their stories in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.
Transcript: Is Emotional Abuse Considered Domestic Violence?
Anne: Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Yes, emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. A domestic violence survivor will share her story with us today. And we’re going to explain why. Because it’s important to understand why emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. In fact, I think it’s the most important one, because physical violence never occurs without emotional abuse.
So if everyone can learn to recognize emotional abuse and protect themselves from it. Your chances of physical harm go down drastically. To illustrate how emotional abuse is domestic violence. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. really helps, because it is an actual picture book. There are a ton of infographics in the back that illustrate this type of domestic violence and explain why emotional abuse is domestic violence.
It’s an extremely quick read. So if you have people around you that are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around what you’re going through, this book is the perfect way to educate them. You can find Trauma Mama Husband Drama on this link, which is my books page. It’ll just take you to Amazon. You can also find it on Amazon.
When you purchase it, circle back around and give it a five star rating, because so many women are searching for books, and they find, The Five Love Languages or Men are From Mars, books that are not helpful. So if you rate it, it’ll help women find this podcast. Which is free to everyone, even if they never purchased the book. All right.
Evie’s Story: Finding Her Voice
Anne: Now, let’s get to this week’s guest. Welcome, Evie.
Evie: Thank you so much for having me.
Anne: Let’s start by sharing your own story. How has sharing your story helped you heal?
Evie: When I first left my abuser, sharing my story was one of the first things I did. I have always been a writer. When I was with him, he took my voice away in more ways than one. And one of those was that he would constantly criticize my writing and wouldn’t let me keep journals. And so I turned to writing and sharing my story to start healing and find my voice after emotional abuse.
It was important for me to have my story written out in journal form. Just so I could validate what happened to me. And remember, these are the details. This is actually what happened. I wasn’t persuaded and manipulated by the after effects of gaslighting. So I felt validated and empowered.
Anne: When you start talking about domestic violence, many people assume it must involve a physical violent act, and that’s actually not the case.
Domestic abuse and domestic violence are interchangeable. Someone can be an emotionally violent abuser without ever laying a finger on their victim. I frequently say domestic abuse rather than domestic violence. Just so women who haven’t been hit or punched don’t think, oh, this isn’t for me because I haven’t been physically harmed.
And also, many people don’t realize that emotional abuse is a domestic abuse issue. It is under the umbrella of domestic violence. It’s also very typical that it never escalates to physical abuse.
Emotional Abuse vs. Physical Abuse
Anne: That’s when women also get very confused. Because they try to figure out what’s wrong. At least for me and so many other victims that I know, they went through years of emotional and psychological abuse where they couldn’t quite figure it out.
And then once a violent act happened. It helped them see what was happening. So I try to help them identify emotional and psychological abuse long before the physical violence starts. Do you feel like a lot of the emotional abuse and the psychological abuse left more damage in its wake than the physical?
Evie: Yeah, it started with emotional abuse and psychological abuse, and eventually escalated to sexual abuse and then physical violence. And I definitely think things like stonewalling and gaslighting have left a toll on me. It’s still something that I’m trying to heal from every day. It’s one of those things where some days I’ll be great. And some days it comes back full force. And I will have the negative self talk in my head.
The physical abuse for me, again, was definitely the indicator that, Oh yeah, my gut was right. This is not okay. I’ve healed from that. I think for sure.
Anne: That’s how I am too. Quite a bit of physical intimidation, one where I was actually injured. But the psychological and emotional abuse is definitely the most lasting for me. And for women who haven’t experienced any physical violence. I want to reiterate, you’re still experiencing domestic abuse, and that psychological and emotional abuse are domestic violence issues. You can’t separate them out. You’re never ever going to get physical violence without emotional and psychological violence.
In what ways have you shared your story?
emotional abuse Is considered domestic violence: Sharing Stories for Healing
Evie: Yes, I shared my story in your community, so it was in front of a supportive audience. Talking to community members, so I’ve become comfortable doing that. I was able to talk about my experience with survivors who say, Hey, yeah, me too, because there’s so much power in knowing that you’re not going through something alone. And knowing that you can heal and grow alongside people.
I was lucky after I left my abuser. I sprung into healing mode. Also, I was fortunate enough to find a community which I clicked with. There were three things that I appreciated. One of them was the power to share my story, get my voice back, and share my truth and not feel suppressed. And the second one was connecting with all these other survivors. I think community was huge.
My experience, which was validated, and helped me know that I wasn’t alone. Because it’s so easy to think, wow, this doesn’t happen to anyone else. So knowing there were other women, and for me, they were all older than me. And I was the youngest one going through it at the time. It was great. And then the third thing I got out of it was education. I’m originally from a very small town. And had my story happened back in my small hometown, I would have had that same opportunity.
And so It was great to share. No matter where I was, as long as I had internet access. I think those three pieces are huge stepping blocks for any survivor.
Anne: Now, I can tell from the way you’re talking that you like the word survivor, which is awesome. I prefer the word victim.
Labels: Survivor vs. Victim
Anne: And I’ll tell you why. not saying this to convince you or anyone else. But the reason why I like the word victim is because survivor to me feels like you survived the Titanic or something, right? Like, you got off the Titanic, and the Titanic sank, and you made it to shore, and you survived. The harm is over, but with emotional abuse and domestic violence it may continue because you share children.
And because I share children with the man who is emotionally and psychologically abusive to me, I’m actually, literally constantly a victim. Literally, I’m still technically victimized. I’m still lied about, I’m still harmed through things he says. When I say victims, what I want to say is that women can protect themselves, even though the harm could still occur because they share children or for whatever circumstance.
And so the reason I don’t like to call myself a survivor is because I’m like, I haven’t survived anything. I’m still struggling through this as safe as possible with the boundaries I have. What are your thoughts about that, as you’ve talked with other survivors?
Evie: Yeah, I think labels are important for people. You know, many people want to go by thriver too. I think it is a popular word that’s surfacing in the survivor community. But yeah, labels are personal for people, so I think whatever you want to identify as, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s your story, and however you want to be identified, that is okay.
Anne: Yeah, I agree. I feel like you can thrive, you can survive. And I’m not sure if I will say I’m technically a victim forever. And actually I’m pretty happy and grateful to have the boundaries that I have.
emotional abuse and domestic violence: Options for defining your experience
Anne: Hey, current Anne will interject here. I recorded this interview years ago. Before I had the Living Free strategies. Click that link to learn more about strategies that can protect you. I still call myself a victim because he’s still abusive. But luckily, I can completely protect myself and my kids now. And now back to my years ago, self, who wasn’t sure I could ever be completely protected.
I’m not sure if the abuse has stopped or if it will ever stop. If I want to change how I think about that. But I want to give people options if survivor, victim, thriver or shero doesn’t speak to them. Shero is another word I like. So it depends on you and your personal situation and how you see it. I think if I didn’t have to have any interaction anymore with the man who emotionally abuses me. I think I would like the word survivor, but since I still have that court ordered mandated interaction.
As you know, if you listen to this podcast, sharing stories is what this podcast is about. So if you’re interested in sharing your story, one option is to share it here on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. If you’re interested in sharing your story, please contact podcast@btr.org. As women think about sharing, what are some safety tips you would recommend?
Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence: Safety Tips for Sharing Your Story
Evie: I think it’s important to listen to your intuition and figure out what is a safe audience for you. Maybe you tell a best friend, and if that goes well. Then you tell a family member, and if that goes well, maybe you tell your circle of friends. I think it’s really important to note that we don’t always get the response we’re hoping for especially with emotional abuse.
I told some family members, and I thought I would get support and love, and that didn’t happen. And it’s okay to go at your own pace. If you tell someone and you don’t get a reaction that you should, that’s not on you. That’s on them. And if you want to take a break from sharing your story, then take a break.
But if you want to keep sharing your story, keep looking for safe outlets to do so. Tell other survivors. I think that’s important. You know, those can be great ways to share your story. Because you’re sharing it with someone and people who do understand, because they’ve been through something similar. They’ll know how to support you and love you.
And so I think those baby steps are important. And if you want to get your story out there to a bigger audience. Yeah, your podcast. You share your truth anonymously. But you’re also protected. You do a great job. Because you don’t have to connect your name with your story. You can share your story anonymously and still feel like you’re getting your voice out there.
Using Pseudonyms for Protection
Evie: It’s really just listening to your gut and figuring out, what do I need from sharing my story? And I know for me personally it was, I need to get my voice back.
Anne: We recommend that every woman on this podcast uses a pseudonym for her own protection. Before I started this podcast, I was actually public speaking about what was happening with my abuser, thinking he was in recovery from addiction. We used our real names and spoke publicly at addiction recovery conferences.
When I discovered all those lies that I accidentally promoted someone as a great guy, when he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I felt devastated. That was really, really hard for me to deal with. Having had the experience of using my real name and then doing this, I definitely chose to use a pseudonym so that I don’t have to go through that again, because that was awful. So that is one thing that I recommend for victims is to use a pseudonym. It’s helpful to keep you safe.
Evie: Yes, absolutely.
Anne: I don’t think many non-survivors listen to this podcast. If they do, thank you. I’m honored by you listening. Mostly the people that listen here are current victims of emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion.
The Importance of Non-Survivors Hearing These Stories
Anne: Why do you think it’s important for non-survivors to hear these stories of abuse?
Evie: It’s so important. I think awareness is huge. The more people who know what it’s like to be a survivor and the intricacies of being a survivor, the better. Because then we’re going to have healthier friends. We’re going to have healthier family members, healthier bosses and coworkers.
Yes, and for me, it’s always been important to share outside of survivor groups as well. I’ve been public with my story for so long that I’m not too concerned about the backlash anymore, whether people believe me or not. So I’m not necessarily trying to persuade people who don’t want to believe me.
I’m just trying to make sure that if there is one person out there hearing my story, who needs to hear what I’m saying. That’s who my audience is. Because whether they’re not a survivor, or they are, and they just don’t want to come to terms with that yet. I think it’s so important to ensure that we’re just spreading our truth.
Anne: Yeah, that is a risky endeavor, to start sharing. The cool thing about when you start sharing is that you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s a safe situation or not. You can dip your toe in the water a little bit and see, is it safe to share with this person, with this group, or with these people? And you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s safe or not. And if it’s not safe, you can just back away.
emotional abuse and domestic violence: Learning to Identify safe people
Anne: This is current and interjecting again, to say the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop will teach you how to know if someone is safe or not. So, if you’re struggling with that right now, the BTR Living Free Workshop will help. Okay. Now back to years ago, Anne.
And then the more you share and assess your emotional safety, the more you can identify a safe group. I think probably in your case, but I’m not sure. Don’t let me put words in your mouth if this is not the case. That now you feel like your support system, not just the other survivors you’re around, but also your friends and the people you interact with, feel safe for you. Is that the case?
Evie: Oh, absolutely.
Anne: Yeah, and you’ve developed that over time. So that’s awesome. And that’s what can come from reaching out and starting to share. Has anyone seemed safe at first, and then proved not safe?
Evie: Yeah, I think that was particularly true with my family, you know, their family. And so obviously they get a little bit deeper level of initial trust and love from you.
That almost hurt the most for me. Because certain family members helped me when I needed to move out. And then later on kind of used my story against me and made me the black sheep of the family. But, as hard as that was, I’m in a good place now where I’m definitely setting healthier boundaries and able to understand what is acceptable respect and love from people. And it’s never easy to cut toxic family members out of your life.
Boundaries & Support network
Anne: Yep, the longer you go with either no abuse happening in your life anymore. Or in my case, the longer I set pretty strict boundaries to keep me safe from the harm, the stronger we get. In healing from emotional abuse and domestic violence the most important factor is distance from the abuse.
And I highly recommend that women join a network of support, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, for example. That runs multiple times a day in every woman’s time zone, which is awesome. I talked to someone the other day. He said, oh, so BTR is a women’s empowerment organization. And I said, yeah, you could call it that, definitely. We want every woman to know she is important, cared about, loved, and doesn’t deserve harm.
The Beginning of the Relationship: Red Flags
Anne: So before we conclude today, can you talk about the beginning of your relationship? Can you talk about maybe the emotional abuse in the form of grooming that took place and then how that felt looking back?
Evie: Yeah, of course. Like I said, I come from a small town, so I met my abuser when I first moved. Isolation is huge, but that was the first big hurdle he didn’t have to cross. Because I didn’t have any family or friends in this new state. Already I was vulnerable, just because I didn’t know anybody. And so it’s so much harder when your gut tells you one thing. And you don’t have anybody else that you trust to bounce those thoughts and feelings off of.
Initially, there were a lot of silent red flags in our relationship. He was jealous. That didn’t sit well with me. He was very quick to say things like, I love you. And I remember he said I was like, oh. I don’t feel that way yet. It’s been like a month or two. This is very fast. He reacted negatively to the fact that I wouldn’t say it back. And I was like, I just don’t want to lie to you.
So things like love bombing at the beginning. It made it that much harder when the love bombing stopped. Because he yanked that away from me. And suddenly it went from, wow, at the beginning of a relationship. All he could do was shower me with compliments and say how much he loved me. And now I’m not getting any of that.
Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence: The Role of Pornography & Other Abuses
Evie: And so things like that were really big, and arguing with him was very hard. He would make me feel like I overreacted to everything, and that my reactions were not valid. And that he didn’t say or do whatever was brought up. And then I also felt very intimidated.
He reminded me about other women he dated. And things he did to them when they left him. And so I remember only a couple months in. He let me know the ways he hurt other women. If I leave, what is he going to do to me?
Anne: Were you aware of any exploitative material?
Evie: I definitely knew that that was a thing for him.
Anne: Did you find that to be a sign of abuse, or was it like, oh, everybody does this? How did you feel about it at the time?
Evie: Yeah, I don’t know that was something that was at the forefront of my mind.
Anne: So you weren’t concerned about the pornography use. That wasn’t necessarily a red flag for you. For me it’s important for women to understand that emotional abuse and infidelity go hand in hand. It’s interesting to me because women who exploitative material is an issue for them. They don’t recognize, that emotional abuse is considered domestic violence? Maybe or the psychological abuse. When they find out about the use, they know something’s wrong, because they know this is a person who has told me he’s not going to use it. So the level of lying there gets intense, but he was lying to you about other things?
Financial Abuse & Career Jeopardy
Evie: Definitely, I found out he cheated on me, and I think I had always had that in the back of my mind. When that came out, that was huge for me, and there was some financial abuse. And all of that definitely hurt. I was always very proud of my career and the fact that I was the first person in my family to graduate and get a degree. So when he put my career in jeopardy, that was the biggest red flag for me that emotional abuse is domestic violence. Yes, I couldn’t forgive that.
Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story on our podcast today.
Evie: Thank you so much for having me.
How To Overcome The Long Term Effects of Emotional Abuse In Marriage – 3 Steps
Aug 23, 2022
The long term effects of emotional abuse in marriage are different for every woman. Here are 6 long term effects and 3 way to overcome them.
6 Long Term Effects of Emotional Abuse In Marriage
Low self-esteem and self-worth due to constant manipulation or criticism.
Anxiety and depression caused by prolonged emotional distress.
Confusion of not being able to make progress with your goals because your husband is exploiting and undermining you.
A sense of isolation and loneliness from emotional invalidation.
Chronic stress, which may lead to physical health issues like fatigue or headaches.
Post-traumatic stress symptoms, including inability to sleep and flashbacks.
1. To Heal From The Long Term Effects of Emotional Abuse, Learn What Type You’re Experiencing
Did you know there are 19 types of emotional abuse? To discover which types of emotional abuse your husband is using to exploit you, take this free emotional abuse quiz.
2. To Avoid the Long Term Affects of Emotional Abuse, Get The Right Support
Many women report that couple therapy or addiction recovery only escalated their husband’s emotional abuse.
3. The Abuse Will Escalate During A Crisis, So Prepare Now
Emotional abusers escalate during a crisis because it’s the perfect time to assert control. If a victim is desperate and scared, she’s less likely to set boundaries.
One of the long term effects of emotional abuse is not realizing how much danger you’re in. In a crisis, an abuser may feel a lack of control. As a result, his controlling behaviors may escalate.
Protect Yourself From Emotional Abuse Long Term
When abusers use controlling behavior to abuse their partner, it looks like:
Taking away her privacy
Coercion (including sexual coercion)
Verbal abuse, including yelling
Physical intimidation
Shaming the victim if she does anything he doesn’t want her to do
Becoming overly dependent on the victim
Dictating the victim’s choices and not letting her make decisions
Starting arguments over trivial matters
While some crises may limit your access to domestic abuse shelters, professional help, and seeking a new place to live, women can always find support on the online by attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.
What Boundaries Can I Set When I Can’t Leave My House?
In the event of natural disasters, pandemics, or other large-scale crises, women may wonder what boundaries they can set to separate themselves from abuse when they can’t physically separate from their abuser. Here are some ideas:
I will call 9-1-1 immediately if I feel physically threatened by my partner.
I will not have sex or sleep in the same room as someone who is abusive to me.
Seek daily support if I am not able to leave the home during a crisis.
I will make a safety plan so that as soon as the crisis is over, I can avoid the long term effects of emotional abuse.
Transcript: How To Overcome The Long Term Effects of Emotional Abuse In Marriage
Anne: It’s just me today. I wanted to talk about the long term effects of emotional abuse in marriage. I want to take everybody back in time for a minute. To when at least in the United States everything locked down due to the COVID-19 pandemic. I remember the day they canceled school. And I felt relief that I wouldn’t share an enclosed space with my ex-husband.
Because by that time I was divorced. I remember the relief. Like that was the first thing I thought of. I’m so grateful that I’m not stuck in the house with him. Being in close physical proximity to emotional abuse. Will harm you long term, but it will also harm you in the short term.
Understanding Emotional Abuse Types
Anne: So number one, you need to learn what type of emotional abuse you are experiencing. Did you know that there are 19 types of emotional abuse? To discover which types of emotional abuse your husband uses to exploit you. Take our free emotional abuse quiz, just click on that link. It’ll indicate how he’s emotionally abusive to you, because emotional abuse is so hard to see.
Or maybe he’s not. You’ll know from taking that quiz.
Number two to avoid the long term effects of emotional abuse. You need the right support. Many women report that couple therapy or addiction recovery only escalated their husband’s emotional abuse. So make sure that when you get support, it’s from someone who understands this type of abuse. And our Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions are the best way to get that type of validating support. To see the group session schedule, go to that link. And I’m going to spend the rest of today’s podcast talking about number three.
Preparing for Crisis Escalation
Anne: Emotional abuse will escalate during a crisis, so prepare now. The rest of this episode I recorded during COVID years ago, but it will help you understand why abusers escalate during a crisis, this is also called emotional battering. And to heal from the long term effects of emotional abuse, you need to be prepared. Because we can have a crisis happen at any time. So the rest of this episode was recorded years ago during COVID. Here we go.
It’s early in the morning today. Everyone is concerned for good reason about the coronavirus outbreak. And also all the flights that are canceled, the stock market, people being quarantined, and employers telling people to work from home, et cetera.
I wanted to talk about how men who exhibit abusive behaviors tend to escalate during a crisis.
Although they may put on the opposite. They look really, really good during a crisis. But just to prepare you, especially if you’re quarantined with a man who exhibits abusive behaviors. Many women have trouble, and abusive episodes happen when they’re on vacation. Or on the weekend, or other times where they’re with the abuser full time. And he doesn’t have an outlet to either act out, excuse himself, or get out of family duties.
Abusive Behaviors During Quarantine Or Other Situations
Anne: Generally speaking, abusers like to use anything they can to get out of housework. Or things they don’t want to do to escape a situation they feel uncomfortable with. Work is a good excuse. So we hear a lot of abusive men saying things like, “You don’t respect my work. You don’t respect me. My job is important. I need to work in peace.” So if you are about to be quarantined with an emotionally abusive man, just observe what happens if they don’t have an outlet to use their drug, use exploitative material.
They may create a fight so that they can get away so that they can use. That’s not your fault. They want to blame it on you, but don’t buy it. You’re gonna notice things that you wouldn’t notice before. For example, I have a friend whose ex husband remarried and it was going well. And she was a little confused, because she was like, wow, he was extremely abusive to me. But this new marriage seems good.
They’re active in church, things look good. His new wife traveled for work. And so she was gone frequently, and things were good. And then about seven years after they got married. The new wife got pregnant with twins. And within a couple of years, they were divorced. Because once the new wife didn’t travel anymore and interacted more with her husband. She started recognizing these abusive behaviors are not working for me.
And they got divorced. So we see that a lot. I know many of you have thought, can I count on this man during a crisis? Well, the crisis is here, and you’ll see we are here during this time.
Seeking Safety and Support
Anne: Thank goodness I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery this way, so that no matter what happened, we are safe. We can help you. You can attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery group from your closet. You know, you can just go get in your parked car. If you have to be in your room and lock the door or whatever you need to do to get some semblance of peace, You don’t even have to go anywhere and lock the doors and have a safe space. We’re not going anywhere. You can join us. You can see our daily schedule by clicking on this link.
Know that during this time, I’m praying for all of us, that this might be the miracle that you’ve been praying for. Because emotional abuse is domestic violence.
It might enable you to see what you thought were abusive behaviors weren’t? I don’t know what your situation is. But I do know that during your crisis, things can get tricky. When abusive men feel a lack of control, because they get their power from power over. Healthy people get their power from mutuality. We’re on a team, we’re working together, we have mutual respect.
Abusers get their power from power over. So if they’re feeling a lack of control right now because of the stock market crashing, Because they can’t go to work, because of other factors, they’re going to try to get their power back. It might be an argument over cereal.
Resources For Help with long term effects of emotional abuse
Anne: They try to assert themselves and take a stand for something that seems pointless. Because they’re flailing, because they have no power unless they feel they can control someone else. They are not in control of themselves. We have a lot of books on our books page, btr.org/books. If you’re in close proximity with someone exhibiting abusive behaviors, and you still want to get educated during this time, an audio book is a great way to go.
This is modern day. And I know so many of you have horror stories from those times where you were stuck in your house with your abuser. Another crisis will happen at some point. And so we need to be prepared and have this in our minds. That the long term effect of abuse, the long term effects of emotional abuse and marriage, is that we’re never safe in our own homes. And that is the best reason to start protecting yourself.
How To Cope With Betrayal Trauma – 4 Self Care Strategies
Aug 16, 2022
When a woman discovers her husband’s secret pornography use or infidelity, it’s devastating. Learning how to cope with betrayal trauma is a daily struggle. Here are 4 self care strategies for victims.
Loss, devastation, terror, fury, grief, numbness… are all manifestations of betrayal trauma, and each emotion can be debilitating. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
VIctims of betrayal can take small steps to begin practicing self-care, which is the only way to truly process and ultimately heal from betrayal trauma.
1. How To Cope With Betrayal Trauma: Pay Attention To Your Body’s Messages
2. Pick One Tiny Thing, And Do That Thing Everyday
3. Accept and Embrace The “Critical Systems Only” Phase When trying to CopE With Betrayal Trauma
4. Whatever Works To Help You Cope With Betrayal Trauma Is The Best Self Care For You
Coping With Betrayal Trauma Feels Wrong To Victims of Betrayal
Abusive men, including pornography users, condition victims to ignore their own needs. For many women, this means they don’t realize they actually cope with betrayal trauma the best way they can. And when they initiate self-care practices, they feel like they’re doing something wrong.
When victims of betrayal begin practicing self-care, they often feel:
Guilt
Shame
Embarrassment
Gluttonous
Selfish
Silly
Victims can become empowered by understanding that these negative emotions are a product of their abuser’s behavior – they are not reality. Self-care is not selfish and women who practice it are practicing self-love.
Coping With Betrayal Trauma Is A Process
Practicing self-care isn’t a destination, it’s a journey. Self-care needs may change over time. What women need now may be different several months or years into the healing process.
When women practice self-compassion and give themselves time to try new methods of self-care, they may find more freedom and joy in the process. As Anne explains:
How To Cope With Betrayal Trauma: 4 Things To Consider
Every victim’s self-care will be specific to her needs at any given time. Effective self-care is built on these four components:
Soothing
Nurturing
Discipline
Compassion
When women use these four components as a guide in their self-care decisions, they are better able to meet their own needs as they work through living with betrayal trauma.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Supports Victims of Betrayal
At BTR, we know how difficult it can be to implement self-care after discovering betrayal.
The intense and relentless emotional waves that seem to bury victims alive can be so overwhelming that self-care feels out of the question.
However, at BTR, we believe that self-care is the foundation for healing and thriving after betrayal and abuse.
Anne: A member of our community is on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Tia. She let me know that she’s been listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcasts since the beginning. When I was crying into the microphone in my basement. I’m so appreciative to those of you who have supported me since the very beginning. Thank you so much.
Tia needed to practice self-care when her marriage began to unravel. As she shares a little bit of her journey to cope with betrayal trauma, I’ll be pointing out 4 self-care strategies that she used to help bring her peace every day. Welcome Tia.
Tia: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Anne: Self care is my favorite personal topic right now. As I am knee deep or maybe eyeball deep into self care. Now that I’m more healed and stabler, I’m able to really focus on it. And so before we start the conversation, I want to do a disclaimer to women like me. We’re going to talk about how in the middle of intense trauma, you can practice a little bit of self care as much as possible.
But don’t feel guilty right now if your self care is Oreos and popcorn and Netflix. There’s no guilt, no guilt. And any phase of your journey or anywhere you are is fine. It’s all okay. Let’s talk about finding self care the hard way.
Tia: Yes, had I been wiser, had there been more podcasts way back when, maybe I would have been smarter.
Understanding Self-Care: Tia’s Initial Struggles
Tia: But I remember seeing a counselor when things started to unravel, I was trying to cope with betrayal trauma and at that point she said to me, you need to up your self care. And she might as well have been speaking a different language. I had no idea what self care really was. I thought, hey, I exercise and I eat well.
And if you consider chocolate a health food. Yeah, then I absolutely look after myself. What’s your issue counselor? I have great self care. I honestly had no idea, and life continued to unravel until I got to such a dark place. It’s a little embarrassing now to talk about, but I’ve heard it from so many women that I know I’m not alone.
When you start wanting to get sick or looking for a way so that somebody will look after you. So that you’d have a day off, so expectations could be lifted. There’s something wrong. You need to pay attention to that.
Anne: Yeah.
Self-Care Strategy #1: Listen to Your Body
Anne: So that’s self care strategy number one when you cope with betrayal trauma. Pay attention to what your body tells you.
Tia: And I unfortunately didn’t. I have a bigger and better mentality or faster and farther. And I ended up running, but then doing too much and stress on your body is stress on your body, even if it’s exercise. It’s supposed to be self care. If it’s too stressful for you, it’s stressful, just stop it. So self care means paying attention to your body and what’s going on there.
Like it all comes back to looking after what’s happening with you. I ended up with six surgeries in five years. This may sound bad, but I honestly looked forward to the surgeries, because it was a day or two of somebody just looking after me. They bring you food at regular intervals. They ask you if you want anything, water’s there, nothing’s expected of you. You can read, you can ring a bell and somebody shows up. And that should have been a huge clue that maybe I needed to up my self care game.
It got so bad that before one of the surgeries, I wanted to die. And that was my prayer at that time, God take me. I knew what I had to face in life when I woke up from that surgery, and I just thought, I just want to die here, now. And fortunately, that’s not a prayer he answered. This is a self care journey, learning to look after yourself before you get to such a dark place. There are people that need you alive. There are people that need you alive and well.
How to cope with betrayal trauma: Body Scans
Anne: And the most important person that needs you alive and well is yourself.
Tia: Yes, have you ever done one of those body scans? Where you sit and think about, you know, how does my head feel?
Anne: Yeah, in fact, I put that into the Living Free Workshop. So there are two sections where I teach women how to do a body scan. Yeah, we call it getting in touch with your sacred internal warning system.
Tia: Yeah, as part of this self care journey, I went to a women’s intensive in Minneapolis. They were doing this body scan, and they had us sit there. I remember probably for the first time feeling like, Oh no, my head hurts. Hey, my neck hurts, my shoulders hurt, my gut hurts, my chest hurts.
I had not been aware that everything hurt before that point. And then they finished the scan, and they said, okay, everyone open your eyes. And then they went on with the session. I was like, wait, now I’m aware I’m in terrible pain. What do I do? What do I do with this? And I actually put up my hand and asked, there was no good answer. The answer I’ve found since is that the answer is not to take away the pain immediately. The answer is to learn to live a life so that pain isn’t there.
Anne: That is profound, and it is such a process to create a life that’s not causing us pain. I remember one day I went into the closet and put a soft blanket over my head. And I laid in the closet and cried and cried. That was an intentional choice to cope with betrayal trauma.
Self-Care Strategy #2: Small Daily Rituals
Anne: So when we’re looking for strategies for how to cope with betrayal trauma, the second strategy is to pick one tiny thing. My suggestion is you go outside once a day at least. Even if it’s just for like, literally one second. Tia? What’s your favorite tiny self care ritual?
Tia: So I do have a favorite go to that anybody can do to pull ourselves back to our senses. I get a hot drink, and make sure it’s something you enjoy the smell of. I go to a window and look outside at nature. You mentioned going outside, nature is healing. Look outside and find something living. Look for trees, look for grass that’s moving, look for birds, see if you can hear them. And just take a moment and breathe out slow. You’ll always remember to breathe in.
So just stand there, and sometimes we don’t have a lot of time. But often a minute can be good enough. Just stand there, notice what’s happening outside your window, feeling the warmth of your drink. Inhaling it, tasting it, and if you can hum, we know oddly enough, humming helps activate the vagus nerve, which provides calming for us. And if it’s there for you, go ahead and hum a song that means something to you, but just take that moment. You’re using all five senses, and it only takes a minute.
Anne: Yeah, that’s perfect. We’re constantly told that self care is so important. Let’s dive into why.
Tia: Our body is a gift, and it’s amazing. If we cut ourselves, if we break our leg, it starts to knit itself back together again, which is an absolute miracle.
The Importance of Self-Care
Tia: I wish my car did that when I ran into something, that it would just fix itself. Supported properly our emotions and mental health, will do the same thing. We are meant to heal. Self care gives you the optimum healing space, where you can let things take their natural course and move towards healing.
I like to use the analogy of an airplane, that there can be a storm outside this airplane, and if you focus on this storm, chances are you’re going down. If you can focus on the dials in front of you. That’s your self care. Focus on what’s happening with you. You can keep your nose up, and you can get through this storm.
Anne: That’s a good example. Maybe you’ve heard this on the podcast before, but you’ve been in a plane accident. It’s not your fault, your plane has gone down in the mountains, and you’re all alone. Sure, you can hang out in that plane for a while, but eventually, if you want to survive, you’ll have to get out of the plane. Build a fire, find a river, and follow the river down to a city. You’ll eventually have to develop some survival skills.
And self care is that. It’s not just a survival skill, but a thriver skill. So we go from surviving to thriving. When you are severely injured, you’ll need a “critical systems only” phase. Just like in sci-fi movies, when a meteor hits the ship or an alien and it goes, mer, everything powers down and it’s quiet, not all the lights work, and you’re in this critical systems only phase. So that’s the third self care strategy, while we learn how to cope with betrayal trauma.
How to cope with betrayal trauma, Strategy #3: Embrace Critical Systems Only Phase
Anne: That is accept and embrace a critical systems only phase. A lot of women jump to that, I’m going to exercise a ton, and I’m going to go to every event, and I’m going to show him that I can get out of the house.
And they don’t realize they need to go into sort of a powered down self care critical systems only phase for a while. Yeah, your self esteem is so fragile when you’re traumatized. There is something to be said for that momentary comfort. If a whole bag of Oreos is helpful to you. Go for it, because guilt at this point or worrying about like anything other than survival is just not gonna help. It doesn’t have to be forever, nourishing yourself before you try to like power up all the systems again.
Tia: When these crises happen, we are down to ground zero of what we can do. But if we think through, what does a baby need to survive? They need predictable sleep, food at regular intervals, some sort of loving relationship. And they need some sort of movement or stimulation. Very basic, am I drinking some water? Can I sleep?
It’s pretty bare bones to begin with, and it comes, I like what you’re saying, in a progression. This doesn’t all happen at day one. I have a picture of a bird that’s being held on my wall. And one of the reasons is that I often compare this to birds flying along, and they hit a window. Nobody prepared them for that, and they’re stunned. But somebody needs to pick that little birdie up and move it somewhere where it’s safe.
Self-Care Strategy #4: Whatever Works for You
Tia: We often don’t recognize the enormity of the trauma we face, especially when you have children. We just keep going. We just keep life as usual. You’ve hit a window, your plane is gone down, whatever metaphor you want, you need to take some space.
Anne: Fix the hole in your spaceship before you go into light speed again, is going to be a good idea. And that brings us to the fourth strategy to cope with betrayal trauma. Which is whatever works for you. Whatever works to calm your system down, to give you a break from the pain. That’s self care. My trauma was so intense at the time, I couldn’t read. I had an 11 month old baby, so I was having a hard time getting out of the house.
My injuries were so extreme, I watched all seven seasons of The Good Wife. I got a break from the trauma and intensity of it from focusing on something else. At that time, that was all I could do. I ended up adding an antidepressant to that, and then I actually got off the couch and started adding a little more. Talk about some things that worked for you that maybe other people are like, that’s not self care.
Tia: I put a playlist together. When I hear the first few bars, it does something good to my heart, walking my dog. With self care, often the whole bubble bath thing comes to mind. But for me, I found my brain was pinging off the wall. When I would sit in a tub, I would think I was doing self care because I was experimenting. I couldn’t never calm and relax. My brain was pinging all over the place. So, that’s not self care for me.
The Four Aspects of Self-Care
Anne: It can be an experiment, figuring out how to cope with betrayal trauma, right? Once I got on the antidepressant, that couch I would sit on, I moved it to a different area, and guess what I replaced it with? A treadmill, that has been an evolution, and now when I want to relax, I walk on that treadmill rather than sit on the couch.
If we’re committed to self care and willing to be gentle with ourselves, we’ll see what’s working and what’s not working. When I sat on that couch, I gained 30 pounds. Which was not great for me physically, emotionally or mentally. Do I feel bad about it? Not really. It’s fine. It was a coping skill that I used. I think the most important thing is your intention.
Tia: Yes, am I getting to know myself? I think that is the biggest gift of this journey. I have self care divided into four aspects: self soothing, self nurture, self discipline, and self compassion. Self soothing is what calms me down. What do I need at this moment? Really experimenting with yourself, and looking at your senses. The triggers are simply a sign that we need more self nurturing, being able to talk to ourselves with that more nurturing voice. I had to develop that. I had to learn that.
Today I need to get something done, self discipline. But when I start it, I’m in tears, and can’t do it. So then self compassion says, hey, it’s okay. It’s okay, just work at it for 15 minutes, and then call it quits. Yeah, self compassion is different than self pity. Self compassion says, yes, this is hard, and I’m going to look after you. I’ll get you through this.
How to cope with betrayal trauma: Creating Safe Spaces
Tia: Do I have loving people I can connect with? And that’s a hard one, but we always need safe people. That may even be a coach if your family system is broken down.
Anne: That’s exactly why I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions. To provide a safe place for women who can’t find safety anywhere else. So at the beginning, my suggestion was to go outside. Yours was to look out the window with a hot drink. I loved that. I want everyone to know that a number of years out, I’m doing yoga almost every day. And I am back to weightlifting. I’m skiing again. I paddle board. I love, love outdoor sports. I’m feeling more and more myself every day.
So if you’re listening and you’re like, this seems impossible. I can’t do this. So, I want to give you hope that two years out, four years out, five years out, 10 years out, things will get better. I know when people told me that I wanted to be like, you don’t know how bad it is. It’s so bad! But now it feels good. Like life is really good.
Why don’t we leave the listeners with one more practical self care tip. That any woman, no matter what stage of trauma she’s in, especially the women in intense trauma right now, could implement today.
Tia: Safety is so important, finding that safe place. We often end up hooked to our phones. And so I put together a photo file of people I love, my children, places I love. If you’re like me and half your world turns white and cold. I have pictures of summer so that I can remember that life returns to this barren planet.
The Power of Disconnecting from Social Media
Tia: Places I’ve walked, beaches I’ve been on. When I need to give my brain a break, I flip through and remind myself that there are some good things. There are great places in the world. I will get back there.
Anne: I just thought of one that helped a lot. And when I say this, most women gasp. They’re like, oh, you didn’t. But I deleted all my social media accounts. And I found that helpful. Because I didn’t have to have any of those conversations in my head. If I post this, what will he think? Do I want to look like I’m doing well? Do I not want to look like I’m doing well? Deleting them helped me not worry about how other people perceived me or what type of image I was projecting to the world.
And then, I never did it again. I don’t have any more personal accounts. I have the Betrayal Trauma Recovery organization stuff to run BTR. But I don’t have any personal stuff. I’ve loved it. Anything that works for you will be the right thing. And you can try something, and then you can try something else. It’s not like any one of these things needs to be permanent.
Tia: That’s right.
The Discipline of Taking Time Off
Tia: My favorite one goes under discipline for me, of forcing myself to take 24 hours off every week. The truth is, this may be a little crude, but we’re going to die with things left on our to do list. And taking 24 hours off each week gets me practiced for that. It can be left. The laundry can wait. Stuff can wait. I don’t have to be busy all the time, and then filling that day with things that I enjoy. Doesn’t always work, but it’s a goal.
Anne: Well, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode and sharing your insights with us.
Tia: This has been good. Thank you.
3 Easy to Overlook Signs of Spiritual Abuse in Marriage
Aug 09, 2022
Liz just wanted to keep herself and her family safe. She didn’t know these 3 signs of spiritual abuse that every woman needs to know. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
Liz sought support from trusted church leaders after she experienced abuse. But rather than receiving the help she deserved, Liz experienced severe spiritual abuse from clergy and continued emotional and psychological abuse from her abusers.
Spiritual abuse occurs when individuals use their authority, religious doctrines, or practices to exert control, manipulation, or power over others. Spiritual abuse can also occur when a leader dismisses, minimizes, or refuses to take proper steps to protect victims of abuse and crime. Abusers blame and hold victims responsible for the abuse.
Recognizing The Signs of Spiritual Abuse
It’s important to familiarize yourself with the spiritual abuse. Knowing how to identify spiritual abuse can help those in faith communities recognize and move away from situations where they may be exploited, misled, or traumatized.
The lack of total accountability, a church doesn’t have turning yourself in to authorities as part of the repentance process.
Requesting victims forgive and reconcile with no justice, when emotional and psychological safety haven’t been established.
Continued lying, deceit, and dismissal of sin while professing to be righteous.
Blame & Shame: Spiritually abusive leaders use blaming and shaming tactics to instill feelings of guilt or unworthiness. In our community, this looks like a pastor or other religious leader blaming a wife for her husband’s infidelity, telling her that if she was a better wife, he wouldn’t have been unfaithful.
Overstepping Ethical Boundaries: When spiritual leaders offer marital counsel, therapy, mental health counseling, and label individuals with any diagnosis. Or use a deity to “discern” anything outside their scope of professional, ethical boundaries. This is a serious breach of propriety and is considered severe spiritual abuse. In our community, this often occurs when clergy labels abusive husbands mentally ill requiring more love, service, and intimacy.
Encouraging Isolation: Spiritual abuse occurs when leaders encourage individuals, especially abuse victims, to distance themselves from outside sources of support. This occurs when clergy counsel victims not to report abuse to the authorities, or not attend support groups not sanctioned by the church. Leaders may counsel victims to stay tight-lipped about domestic abuse to everyone but the church leader. This conditioning to isolate can keep victims trapped in a devastating cycle of abuse.
As women set safety boundaries, appropriate support can be beneficial. Clergy have the unique opportunity to lovingly support victims as they identify abuse and seek safety from abusive behaviors.
Liz faithfully sought support from her clergy, only to experience further betrayal and abuse. As you listen to Liz’s story, difficult feelings may surface.
Transcript: 3 Signs of Spiritual Abuse You Need To Know
Anne: About 20 years ago, I was at school teacher at a public school. And I went on a trip with a bunch of teachers to teach English in China. And on that trip, I went with Liz and her mother. At the time, I perceived Liz and her mother as the “typical Christian family.” They went to church every week and looked like they obeyed the commandments. I’ve reconnected with Liz. And she told me what was going on in her family. Today we’re talking about the signs of spiritual abuse.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we have women who are agnostic, atheists, Catholics, evangelicals, Baptists, Jewish women, Muslims. Women from all different faith backgrounds and philosophical paradigms. You are welcome here. Our only goal is to help women get to emotional and psychological safety.
I always appreciate your patience with me when I share from my own religious perspective. And it’s only to simply share my own story and how I’m feeling. I honor the choices everyone makes regarding their religion or paradigm. Because Liz is a member of my faith. We’re both members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are a few things that may help you understand as she shares her story.
In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there’s a local volunteer called the Bishop. And then. It’s similar to the structure of the Catholic church. There’s somebody over all local volunteer bishops, which is a stake president. And then a worldwide leader. Today, we’ll mention Bishop, the local leader. And then the stake president, who is a leader in charge of multiple local congregations.
Accountability In Faith Communities
Anne: In my opinion, one of the Bishop’s jobs is to ensure the congregation is safe and the members of the congregation are safe. And I would say that of any clergy: Catholic priests, pastors or rabbis. That anyone in charge of a faith congregation, part of their job, should be to keep their congregation and the members of the congregation safe. And watch for the signs of spirital abuse. Many churches have a system of accountability.
In scripture, it says that if one or two witnesses share some information, that would affect the safety of the congregation. That there will be a counsel to determine what to do with that member. Now in the past, in my church and in pretty much every church that I know about. It’s seen as a way to call this person to repentance. But I don’t think they’re using it. The way they could use it. They’re not using it to keep their congregations safe and their members safe.
You’ll hear more about that. And what repentance really entails a little later in this story. Now, in the story Liz is about to tell. She’s going to outline how her brother and her father have repeatedly lied to bishops and stake presidents throughout their lives. She’s also going to talk about how she approached the bishop and stake president to stop the abuse, infidelity, and hold her brother and father accountable. She experienced spiritual abuse when she did this. And experienced years of the effects of spiritual abuse afterwards.
I didn’t ask Liz during this interview why she did not report the sexual abuse in her family to the police. Victims have good reasons for not reporting. So many people think that reporting is the answer to abuse.
Struggles With Faith & Family
Anne: And we have seen over and over again that oftentimes reporting doesn’t do anything and causes problems for the victim. Especially when they can’t prove what happened. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe the victim is the best person to decide whether to report. And we support her in whatever decision she makes, in her situation. What do you feel like is going to bring you the most safety and our coaches can help you work through that.
Also, if you do decide to report. Get help from a victim advocate is important, so it can be as safe as possible. When I talk to victims, the question of whether they reported is usually not on the top of my mind. Because reporting isn’t always the solution. It can help or hurt. So keep that in mind as Liz and I talk today. So with that very long introduction. Welcome. Liz. Why don’t you start wherever you want to start.
Liz: I’m the youngest of four and had a pretty normal LDS church upbringing. When I was about 12, I was praying about what had been happening to me. And if it wasn’t right, my oldest brother would not go on his mission. And for about a year, year and a half, there was sexual abuse. I thought maybe I was crazy, that I was making things up. I didn’t dare tell anyone, because why would I say something like that about my older brother? Then he left on his mission.
I decided I must be crazy and that God didn’t care about me. And it totally put me on a really intense and destructive internal trajectory for my teenage years. This was spiritual abuse.
Confronting Spiritual Abuse
Liz: When I look at the statistics of what happens to girls who are abused, and the paths they take. I was not a promiscuous teenager, didn’t do drugs, alcohol and self harming. I was completely unmoored. Because of spiritual abuse I had no idea where the foundation was. to stand on. Many of the teachings of the church, eternal families, and we’re a happy family I didn’t know what to think or believe anymore.
Because I was either making something up or this was huge, horrible, and awful, and why wasn’t anybody noticing? I finally told a few of my friends what had happened, and at this point of course my brother had come home from his mission. And my two siblings in between us were off at college, but he was going to college while living at home. So it was me and him in the home together.
https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I
While there was no more sexual abuse, he hit me a few times. And there was a lot of physical intimidation where he would pick me up and dangle me over the stairwell. He was big enough that he could pick me up and do whatever he wanted. He had a lot of anger. And of course, my parents just told him to stop bothering his sister. Stop fighting kids, kind of thing. I told my friend after my brother hit me. Because he bruised me pretty good.
They were like, you need to tell somebody, like an adult. And I just decided finally, I feel like I’m going crazy. I’m going to write this all down. And I left it in a pile of things on my desk in my room. It was not out on top. It was not super hidden away.
What Will The Neighbors Think?
Liz: But my mom searched my room. I came home from school that day to a typewritten letter from her. And in the letter, she told me that my brother had come to her before his mission. And she told him not to go to the bishop. Or that the bishop would drag my parents in, or I don’t know what. Just that the whole thing is like, no, let’s just not go there, because we were a church going family on the surface.
The one thing that she said I remember distinctly was, what will the neighbors think? And I was like, is that what this is about? I grew up with my mom telling me that I was her baby girl. Growing up with that message from my mother and then finding out when I’m 16, that her pride and fear were more important, was extremely devastating to me.
So when I was 16, I quit going to church because I was like, why, what’s the point here? Because you don’t care, and God doesn’t care, the spiritual abuse was so great that I felt the rug had been ripped out from underneath me, and my whole world was completely in turmoil. I barely graduated from high school, but I was still able to get into college and go away to college.
At the time, I applied and got accepted to go away to college, which was my way of getting out of the house. That was when my oldest brother transferred to that university. So I went to university in my first year with him on campus. From what I understand, he did talk to a bishop. As we understand it, our doctrine includes restitution, with repentance.
College & Continued Struggles
Liz: And at one point I remember my mom sending my brother into my room to apologize to me. I just remember hearing her tell him in the kitchen, go apologize. And him coming down the hallway to my room, which is the last thing I want, is him in my room. So that was the dynamic, and I still felt like I was crazy. I went to one year of college with my brother. And I ended up dropping out because I was not emotionally prepared to be a college student.
I didn’t have the skill set academically or emotionally to do what I needed to do. I believe at this point it’s about the time my sister was preparing to go on her mission. We hadn’t seen a lot of each other. I was downstairs, she came down. I do not remember what the conversation was about, but it turned into an argument. All of a sudden, she says, well, you’re not the only one who’s been abused. And of course, my world drops out from under me again.
And she tells me that my dad started abusing my sister about the time my brother came home from his mission. My mother, from my perspective, treated my sister like the other woman, like my dad had had an affair. Mom did not protect her children, we both had been victims of abuse spiritual abuse.
Well, when she dropped the bombshell, I still didn’t know what to do with myself. And my parents had told me that I couldn’t go back to college until I could pay for it myself, because I had dropped out. So instead, I went to California and was a nanny.
Spiritual Abuse: Return To Faith, Motherhood & Realizations
Liz: I wanted to have the gospel in my life again, so I returned to Utah, college, and the LDS church. Even in the turmoil since then, I realized that even with doubts and anger, I have the peace and joy I need in my life. I know because I’ve tried that other road. In the process of coming back, I didn’t bring anything up with my family. I just simply tried to be a good daughter and a good sister.
And a good church member. I was married, and after a not super lengthy infertility road, I was blessed with two children. We ended up living in the neighborhood I grew up in. And when my daughter was about to turn one, I kept trying to talk to my mom about the abuse in our family. Her only real response was, I’m sorry, I can’t change the past.
And so when my daughter was about to turn one year old, it all hit me what the statistics are for girls. That one in three or one in four will deal with abuse of some kind, sexual abuse of some kind or assault. There was an interaction with my brother where he had basically been fighting with his wife on the way up to my family’s.
And he ended up yelling at me, and it totally rattled me. It took me way back to all his anger after his mission. I just realized that I was possibly letting my children be groomed for abuse in contact with my family.
Anne: That is so brave of you. And you’re also being abused emotionally and psychologically in an ongoing fashion by your brother. This is how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. So the abuse that you’re experiencing from your brother is ongoing, plus the signs of spiritual abuse.
Breaking Away
Liz: Yes, and I walked in on my dad looking at what were celebrity bikini shots. Which some people would just bat their eye at and say, that’s nothing. But a 60 something year old man, who is an active, faithful LDS church member.
Anne: Faithful in air quotes. It was part of the signs of spiritual abuse.
Liz: Yeah, faithful and would have no reason, should not, look at something like that. And I remember going home and writing in it in my journal, because of course, you know, write it down, makes it real. Talking to my husband about it, trying to somehow reason it away.
Four years later I caught my dad looking at some serious pornography on his computer. I knocked on the door and rang the doorbell. My dad wears hearing aids, came in the house, walked down the hall, and there he was on the computer. He hurried and clicked out of everything. But my husband is a computer guy. And for a while he put a tracker on their computer, and then he says, “No, I don’t want this because we’re just not going there.” We saw some, some serious stuff. https://www.btr.org/types-of-exploitation/
I went over to their house, and I took all the things that were mine that were still in their house. Photos of me, photos of my children, anything I had given them. Cleaned all my things out of their house. My husband and I discussed it. We got ready to put our house on the market and move out of my parents’ neighborhood. I agonized and cried, and I felt bad that I was taking away my children’s grandparents from them and all that extended family, but I just knew I couldn’t do this anymore.
Reporting To Church Authorities
Liz: My family was not willing to talk about it. My family was not willing to put in place any kind of safeguards or anything like that. My parents have 12 grandchildren and would watch grandchildren overnight, unsupervised.
Anne: Just to interject real quick. It’s also not in the past. Because you have two abusers, who continue to lie and manipulate and gaslight. So the abuse is still ongoing with this type of exploitation still happening.
Liz: But that’s how my family sees it. So at the time, I was also in my parents’ congregation, not just in their neighborhood, and I went to the bishop and stake president to talk to them about my family’s history. And both were, shall we say, unimpressed. With what I said about my dad, they called him in and talked to him, which to me in retrospect felt like a good old boys network. These experiences were signs of spiritual abuse.
They said, well, he took care of everything 30 years ago because my dad abused my sister and not me. I think they also blew me off. They did not see a connection between the pornography and the abuse. And the only conversations I ever had were with my mother. The room would freeze over. And what infuriated me the most was that when I really pushed on it, the only thing my dad told my siblings was that he had looked at some pictures.
He did not tell my brothers that he had ever abused my sister. He just said, I looked at some pictures and that was it.
Anne: Minimizing it.
Liz: Yeah.
Cutting Ties With My Spiritual Abusers
Liz: At this point, we cut off all contact with my family. We put our house on the market, and I was so angry that there was no way for me to talk to my family without literally exploding. I did tell my parents I would like mediated counseling sessions. I would like my dad to go to 12 step and personal counseling. None of that happened. So about six months after I discovered my dad on the computer, we had sold our house and moved.
We did not move that far, but we did not tell them where we were moving to. We just simply moved out of this neighborhood and city they were in. It’s been over five years since then, and I still struggle with, I’m a horrible daughter. About a month and a half ago, my mom called and left me a message telling me that my dad went to the emergency room and was in the ICU.
My middle brother ended up sending me an email saying, now’s your chance to make things good. And I just was like, I don’t want to be a callous jerk. I feel bad that my mom is so upset that my dad is so sick, and I feel bad about all this. But I walked away five years ago. Knowing that I was essentially walking away from everything, ever seeing them, talking to them, any of that, because they also asked me to forgive them. And I said, I forgive you, but forgiveness does not equal forgetting.
Anne: Or trust, with no true signs of remorse or repentance, just continued spiritual abuse.
Boundaries & Signs Of Spiritual Abuse
Liz: Yeah, and essentially I felt like in response, my parents put in mission papers and went on a mission. It seemed like my brother was going on his mission all over again. You know, my parents are leaving on their mission. It was like, that’s it. I’m done. And my husband has said to me a couple of times, maybe you should reiterate again what you want from them. And I’m like, I have, and I’m done because I can’t force them.
Liz: This is big on your website. And in the services for Betrayal Trauma Recovery is learning boundaries. It was huge, huge for me to realize what boundaries were and how to use them. Because we haven’t had productive conversations ever. I’m like, I’m not allowing you in.
Anne: So let’s talk about spiritual abuse. Here are three signs of spiritual abuse that you described. For your dad’s Bishop to say, oh, he dealt with it in the past, but he never went to jail for child sexual abuse. That would be part of the repentance process. So he did not repent. Number one of the sign of spiritual abuse is a lack of total accountability, which would be admitting what you had done and serving time in this case.
The number two, sign of spiritual abuse is the request to forgive with absolutely no justice is a sign of spiritual abuse. And the number three sign of spiritual abuse is continued lying. Which is still happening. You were so brave to set boundaries to keep yourself and your children safe. And you should be commended for that. Like that’s something to be proud of, not something to be ashamed of.
Reflection & Moving Forward
Liz: Yeah, I felt so broken for so long. I felt like sometimes my infertility was God punishing me because I was such an awful daughter. So I felt physically, emotionally and spiritually broken. Because I had prayed and God didn’t hear me. Parents are supposed to protect, love and nurture.
And what did my parents do? They picked themselves over their children by going to church, and all the things they are teaching at church, and not actually living them. About being loving eternal families. They were sitting there, and I felt guilty that I don’t want to be with my family eternally because they’re scary.
Anne: Yeah, that makes total sense. Now that you’ve set this boundary, they’re continuing to be unhealthy. How are you feeling?
Liz: It took me a while. When my dad went to the hospital a month and a half ago, and my brother sent me that email, and he said, now is your chance. I stewed for six hours and realized, nope, now is not my chance. When I returned to my family, Utah, and the church, that was their chance. I tried to open up conversations and dialogue, and nobody wanted to do it. And so I decided I was done and I walked away.
No one in my family has learned, understood, researched, the effects of abuse, or this betrayal. They have seen ecclesiastical leaders. That is it. They have done what is technically required by their ecclesiastical leaders.
Courage & Gratitude
Anne: Unfortunately, these particular ecclesiastical leaders don’t know anything about true repentance, because if they did. They would have told your brother and your dad that they need to turn themselves into the police and serve time in jail for child abuse. That would be actual repentance. And then continue to make restitution to you, your sister, and your whole family for the rest of their lives. So technically, their ecclesiastical leaders did not help them repent at all.
Liz: Because church has been a big part of my family’s culture, but not necessarily living the gospel. I think that plays into their, yep, she’s just rattling the cage. She’s just trying to cause problems. It’s always, you know, just calm down, just leave us alone. Why are you so worried about this?
Anne: I am so proud of you that you have made the difficult and heart wrenching decision to set this boundary with your unhealthy family. In spite of the pain and sadness that you feel about your family, making life healthy for you and your own kids now. Going to China with you so long ago, I never would have guessed this. Abuse is rampant in so many families. And I’m proud of you for protecting yourself and getting to safety, rather than worrying about what it looks like on the outside.
You are so brave and, dare I say, righteous for standing in truth, righteousness, and setting boundaries against the wickedness of your family. I appreciate your courage and sharing your story today. Thank you so much.
Liz: Thank you for everything you’re doing.
The Best Books About Emotional Abuse In Marriage
Aug 02, 2022
If you’re looking for the best books about emotional abuse in marriage. It’s important to understand all the ways a husband can be emotionally abusive.
Before covering the best books about emotional abuse, if you’re wondering if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz.
Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a picture book for adults, written by Anne Blythe, M.Ed. founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Trauma Mama Husband Drama written by Anne Blythe and Illustrated by Cristalwolf Lobazul.
Books About Emotional Abuse Should Include Pornography Use
Too many religious leaders re-traumatize a woman when victims reach out for help because of their husband’s exploitative materials use or lies.
Anne Blythe, founder of BTR, created Trauma Mama Husband Drama, in part to support women as they meet with clergy.
Women can bring this book with them when they meet with clergy, therapists, friends or family to help them understand this type of emotional abuse.
Books About Emotional Abuse Shouldn’t Victim Blame
Ever wonder if you are overreacting, expecting too much, imagining things, or just plain crazy? Are you wondering this because someone told you that you’re to blame?
Abusive men (including exploitative materials users) condition women to blame and berate themselves. When abusers gaslight their partners, women have difficulty detecting reality. They often believe that it’s their own intelligence, mental health, or emotional stability that is causing reality to feel so disorienting.
Trauma Mama Husband Drama helps delineate the truth about the chaos, abusiveness, and fear that women experience when their partners use exploitative materials. This book validates and empowers women within themselves as they begin their journey to healing.
Books About Emotional Abuse Should Help Family & Friends Understand What You’re Going Through
Tragically, family and friends of victims often enable abusers to keep betraying and abusing – simply because they don’t understand abuse and trauma.
Trauma Mama Husband Drama is short, easy to read, and there’s a high likelihood a support person will read it.
Anne: Some of you know, I have been working on a picture book for adults called Trauma Mama Husband Drama for a while. It is finally finished, and you can find it on Amazon. When you receive your copy of the book, it will be a verified purchase, and then will you please go to your Amazon account and give it a five star rating?
That makes a huge difference. You know, I’m also writing a non fiction book about how pornography use is abusive to a spouse. I used many examples from victims for that book. And it is very detailed. However, if you give this picture book to clergy or give the 300 page book to clergy, the likelihood of them reading it with the picture book is much higher.
The Journey of Creating the Book
Anne: It kind of came about when I was hanging out with a few sheroes. And we were joking around and I said, Trauma mama feeling sad, and everyone kind of laughed and I thought that’s it. I’m gonna write this book.
The way I found the illustrator was an absolute miracle. She is also an abuse survivor. She lives in Brazil, and I won’t go into how I found her, but it was an absolute miracle. She’s an amazing artist and the right artist for the job. And I can’t even really put into words what a miracle it was to find her, because there were many other artists I got samples from, and nothing was jiving. Crystal Wolf Labasol is her name.
We really clicked, and I’m so grateful for her hard work. It’s been about a year and a half. that it took us to create this picture book. We worked really hard on all the little details to make sure it was saying what we wanted it to say.
The Importance of Visual Learning
Anne: At the back of the book are a bunch of Betrayal Trauma Resources and infographics that help people understand this type of abuse. So we’ve got the power and control wheel. We have the abuse cycle.
This podcast is helpful to people. But there’s something about having this physical book that’s visual to help process it as well. It’s a different way of learning. It’s a different way of processing. Go to Amazon today and order it. You can also get to that link from our books page. So if you go to this link, there’s a section on books curated by Anne, and it’ll send you to Amazon.
Call to Action and Gratitude
Anne: I’m going to keep today’s podcast short, because it’s simply a call to action. I am grateful for those who will go immediately to order this book. Thank you for your support. Thank you for those who support the podcast monthly by doing monthly support from this website, which is btr.org. You go to the bottom and click on support this podcast.
All of you listening make a huge difference. The podcast downloads have increased exponentially over the years. And I’m honored the podcast has so many listeners and actually, blown away. And grateful that you are part of this mission to educate women about exploitative materials use, coercion, and infidelity are abuse.
So thank you, thank you, thank you.
The Truth About The Causes of Sexual Addiction – Cindy’s Story
Jul 26, 2022
Tragically, the sex addiction therapy community is focused on the causes of addiction, without focusing on how it affects an addict’s loved ones. Here’s the truth about the causes of sexual addiction.
Betrayal Trauma: The Result of Abuse, Not Addiction
A man’s “addiction” can’t and doesn’t cause betrayal trauma. Betrayal trauma is the result of emotional, psychological, financial, spiritual, and sexual abuse.
To determine if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
What Makes Betrayal Trauma Worse?
Tragically, some of the recommendations that sex addiction professionals make to victims of betrayal harm them more.
So what makes betrayal trauma worse?
Causes of addiction: Engaging with the Abuser
Abusers will blame, shame, gaslight, turn tables, lie to, criticize, love-bomb, and re-traumatize victims.
Sexual addiction professionals, clergy, and others counsel traumatized women to share their feelings, ask questions, or work on their communication with a man who has thus far manipulated, lied, and harmed them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJgSmoYB0EQ
Instead, victims should avoid engaging with the abuser and set boundaries that protect them from the harm that comes from conversations and associations with partners who are known to harm them.
Counseling With and Confiding in Clergy
If a victims meets with clergy and her abuser, religious leaders tend to disbelieve, minimize, or humiliate the victim.
Sometimes sexual addiction professionals counsel women to keep the “problems in the marriage” private. This is problematic, because pornography use and abuse are not a marriage problem – they’re an abuse problem.
Sometimes sexual addiction professionals make victims sign sex contracts or promise not to divorce the abuser for at least a year. Some even do polygraphs, but prohibit the victim from using anything in the polygraph in court, even if it’s criminal.
Transcript: The Truth About Betrayal Trauma & causes of addiction
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Cindy. Welcome Cindy.
Cindy: Good morning, thank you, Anne.
Anne: So Cindy, why don’t you just start with your story wherever you want to start?
Cindy: Sure, last February, I had what I now call my third and final D-Day in my relationship with my husband. I basically witnessed some behaviors that when I confronted him, it became evident to me that he had relapsed quite a time before. So basically, I found out again that he was in his addiction and lying for the three years prior. Being that I had some bottom line boundaries for myself, which was that I would not be in a relationship with an addict not pursuing recovery. And that I would not be kept in the dark again about my reality.
And after talking to him through this, it became evident that it was now time for me to say we couldn’t continue. We had been in recovery for 10 years post my initial D-Day, and I was comfortable calling it quits at this point. So since August, I’m legally separated. We are heading for divorce. It’s not a therapeutic separation.
Anne: So for women who just started listening to the podcast, let’s talk about a couple terms you brought up. Can you define D-Day for us?
Cindy: Yes, that’s a shorthand way of saying the day of discovery. Usually we use that term to describe the first day of discovery. The BTR coaches tend to use it for any discovery that has kind of redefined reality.
Recognizing Red Flags
Cindy: The original discovery when I first discovered his pornography use last February. I realized he had returned to using it. I talked to many women. Who, like myself, before I had the education I have now, think some of their relationships are on a path to healing.
But, until we know the signs, learn to trust our gut and pay attention to the red flags, and know about the causes of addiction. We can put faith in the fact that our spouses are on the right road. Or that good start is gonna last. And so, I’ve heard many women say, I knew about this, I found out about this, and I thought X, Y, and Z. I thought we were on the road to recovery. I thought he was doing well. Things seemed better. And then I discovered this.
Anne: Yeah, there are some people out there, some professionals that will say women know he’s lying and they’re in denial. I 100% do not agree with that. I think that’s victim blaming. Sometimes we don’t know. Sometimes we might sense something, but we take it to our abuser and he manipulates us.
And that’s why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. it takes women step-by-step through a process that allows us to see the truth. Because he purposefully hides it from us sometimes. He wants us to separate from our gut feelings. Do you want to expand on that a little bit? Cause I’ve heard so many people say she’s just in denial, or she knew in her gut. Or she wasn’t in touch with herself. And I think women are in touch with themselves. It’s just the manipulation has caused such a fog.
Boundaries & Trust
Cindy: I could expound on this for days. Because I’ve been in the same boat, and you’re absolutely right. We are put in a position where somebody can criticize it no matter what we do. I wanted my marriage to make it, to give recovery a chance. I don’t have any regrets. Because I know that to have given my marriage a chance, I had to learn the boundaries, recognize the red flag. I had to learn to trust my gut. And know about the causes of addiction.
And at the same time, if it’s going to work, there’s going to come a day when I have to make myself vulnerable again. To say, I’m willing to extend my trust again, I’m not stupid, knowing that trust could be betrayed again. But if I’m not willing to take that risk again, I may as well call it quits in the beginning.
I remember one professional saying, you knew when you walked down the aisle, and I was like, no, I didn’t know. And he said, no, you knew. And I knew right then, and there I couldn’t get help from him. There’s no way I knew. I don’t know how people working with men with addiction or women for that matter can say that, because they know how successful men are in their deceptiveness. So how can I know what is deliberately and systematically kept from me?
Anne: Yeah, that’s exactly why I created the Living Free Workshop because these are the same professionals you’re talking about. They’ll admit he lied. They’ll acknowledge that. But then they believe what he says after. Like, how can we determine what is the truth? It’s so hard.
Causes of addiction: Cycle of Abuse
Cindy: Right, and I get in trouble with those same professionals after that person accused me of knowing and marrying anyway. Now I’m being accused of not trusting, not forgiving. Why am I assuming there’s a lie? And I’m left confused and thinking nothing I can do is right.
Anne: It’s also just flat out not logical that we are the causes of addiction.
Cindy: Right, it’s not.
Anne: I’m so sorry that happened to you. I mean, they’re talking out of both sides of their mouth, and it makes no sense. Within the context of BTR, when we say the word recover. We’re talking about recovering from the injuries we’ve received from our husband’s abuse through his sexual coercion, using pornography without our knowledge, deceit, manipulation, gaslighting, emotional and psychological abuse. All the abuse that we talk about here at BTR.
Recovery & Healthy Living
Anne: So many women who listen to the podcast or come to BTR for our services. They’ve done pornography addiction recovery with their husbands, just like you have. And then 5, 10 or 20 years later, maybe after a therapeutic disclosure or 4 D-Days later, they realized like this is not working. So when you’re talking about your husband being in recovery, the causes of addiction, and an addict’s recovery can you define recovery in that context?
Cindy: To me, recovery is the process of becoming healthy. The goal is to lead a life. of integrity, healthy emotional coping skills. I’ve always felt like recovery is nothing more than living a healthy life. Recovery is not just now. To get to point B. Recovery is the rest of your life, because once you’ve got it down, it’s about healthy living.
So why would we limit healthy living? We want that for the rest of our lives. In more specific terms, what does that look like? Because anyone can say they’re living a healthy life. I think figuring out what a healthy life looks like. What are healthy coping skills? What does he do?
Anne: In pornography addiction recovery, they’ll tell you to observe if he’s going to a 12 step group, or going to therapy. And that’s an indicator that he’s in recovery.
Identifying Abusive Behaviors
Anne: But they don’t actually talk about abusive behaviors generally. Did anyone ever identify the problem as abuse, in your experience?
Cindy: No, when I had my D-Day. I kind of stumbled across the term trauma, and not right away. I never stumbled across the word abuse. To be honest, it wasn’t until BTR that I can look back on my own situation now and definitely see a cycle of abuse. You know, most people think abuse, and they think physical or even verbal. My husband was always calm and quiet, and he made me look abusive compared to an outsider who didn’t know what was going on because I was very expressive of my anger.
Never physical, but I verbalized it, whereas he would maintain a kind of silence. But I know the abusive nature of gaslighting and there was a lot of that. In the end, there was no denying that he knew he was robbing me of my reality. At one point, I told him, if you keep secrets from me, knowing how damaging it is to our relationship and to me, this is abusive and cruel. And to continue to make that choice, I think is abusive and cruel. But no, that lingo was not out there.
Anne: And I think that’s what’s hurting victims of abuse. We’re trying to get help, but the professionals are digging in the wrong place. When they focus on the causes of addiction. That’s a reference to Raiders of the Lost Ark for you kids of the 80s, like me, who watched it 10 million times. They’re digging in the wrong place! So a lot of women, when their husband seems interested in change, are looking for benchmarks.
Causes of addiction: Benchmarks vs. Safety Behaviors
Anne: And I recently did a video, it’s floating around on Facebook, if you follow us on Facebook at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s our guide to boundaries. We have graphics on Facebook and Instagram.
If you follow us there at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Many of the women we talk to, their guys are going to therapy. They’re going to a recovery group. But because they’re also gaslighting their therapist, many of them are just getting a big ego boost. Or like narcissistic supply from their therapist, and they’re not improving at all. The therapist bases it on perceived causes of addiction.
And similarly, with either 12 step group or their accountability group, they go there and they’re like the hero, and they’re not telling them the truth. They’re just getting more narcissistic supply there. We see that all the time. So I want to warn women that what you need to look for, rather than benchmarks, is actual safety behaviors. I teach women how to do that in The Living Free Workshop. And to get more information, click on this link.
Cindy: That’s what I meant in the beginning when I mentioned integrity. Because those benchmarks can just be check boxes that get checked off. They don’t add up to anything. There’s no real change in the relationship at home and in the way I’m treated.
Anne: I’ve heard women share how, when they weren’t being treated better. Even though he was. “in recovery.” That he was like, well, I’m working on it, but what can you expect? I’m an addict, kind of a thing. Which basically amounts to he thought he had an excuse to behave that way.
Excuses & Accountability
Cindy: It’s really not an either or situation. It implies that either sex addiction is real, or people engage in hurtful behaviors using addiction as an excuse and figuring out the causes of addiction. But in my opinion, both of these can be true. If your husband’s using this as an excuse, it’s not an excuse. It no more justifies the addict’s behavior than alcoholism justifies crashing your vehicle head on into another vehicle and destroying the lives inside. That’s not going to get you out of the consequences for that. It doesn’t mean you’re not responsible.
Anne: To our listeners, have you wondered if it’s just another excuse or if it’s addiction? We’d love to hear your comments. Scroll down to the bottom of this transcript and you can comment there. We’d love to hear what you have to say.
Cindy: Now, I want to say in this situation you can accept or not accept that there’s such a thing as sex addiction. And what are the causes of addiction. Either way, we’re affected
Anne: it would be like a smoker saying, I’m addicted to smoking. And that’s why I smoke in your face, car, bedroom and kitchen. None of those are excuses. So wha? It’s not acceptable for you to smoke in my face.
Cindy: We need to protect ourselves.
Anne: Yeah, when an addict blames his family of origin, his wife, stressors of his job, oh man, like that happened all the time. I’m cranky and I’m irritable and I’m immature because I have a job. It’s like, no. That’s what I love about Betrayal Trauma Recovery is that we’ve all been there.
Conflicting Emotions
Anne: Like the therapist couldn’t understand why I told her my husband is abusive, and he has a pornography addiction, and I don’t want to get divorced. She couldn’t hold those three things in her brain at the same time. Yeah, it was like, well, if he’s abusive, then you want to get divorced. It was sort of like she thought I was crazy. And I thought, no, this is what’s happening. He is abusive, and I don’t want to get divorced.
That’s where I’m at. And so many times people, even when I got divorced, they said, oh, well, congratulations since he was abusive. And I’m like, no, not congratulations. I didn’t want to get divorced. That’s where I was. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery our coaches understand that from the beginning. They understand the causes of addiction.
Cindy: Most of us have experienced these conflicting things. When I found out about my husband’s addiction, I had been a stay at home mom for several years. In the midst of this, I remember personally feeling like I didn’t have any love left. But still not wanting to divorce.
I don’t feel guilty about that. That’s part of the trauma I was going through. I had a small child at home. I was lucky that I had a degree to fall back on. But there was a part of me that was just angry and thought, fine, that’s the life you want to live. You live that life, and I’ll continue to let you financially support me, and I’ll live the life I want.
Causes of addiction: Strength & Resilience
Cindy: That sounds kind of cold, and I eventually came to the conclusion that wasn’t how I wanted to live my life. When you have financial considerations. And you have children that you don’t want to live apart from, even part time. It’s something that weighs on your heart. People come to all kinds of decisions about how they’re going to handle this based on many reasons. I agree, your coaches are well trained to understand, because they have been there.
What I’ve found over and over again is that we are amazingly strong. It takes a lot of strength to pick yourself up from a situation you didn’t cause, you didn’t contribute to, and may not even have been aware of, and go get help for yourself. It’s unfair what we’re going through. But when people hurt us physically or emotionally, the person who hurt us can’t heal us.
Anne: You know, what’s sad about that is so many women feel they can’t live in their current situation. It’s untenable. But climbing out of the dark deep hole seems so difficult financially and emotionally. The prospect of getting help is scary and overwhelming. I wish life wasn’t like that. But it seems like the only option is either sitting in misery or working ourselves out of it. But there’s no magical thing that’s going to happen that’s going to make everything better once you figure out the causes of addiction.
Cindy: That’s the part that seems so unfair, but that’s where we find ourselves. I like the way you put that sit in misery or work our way out of it. It’s for us to decide, and we’re the only ones that can make it happen.
Recovery for Victims
Anne: Now at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we define recovery for victims as like physical therapy. Or someone recovering from an accident or injury. So not that they’re sick or have some sort of mental disorder or something needing to recover like an addict. But more the recovery from the frame of reference of you’re injured and recovering from your injury.
When we use the word recovery in the betrayal trauma context, we’re talking about recovering from someone else’s harming you. You said if you’re not willing to trust again sometime in the future. I also want to share that many women aren’t sure if they’re willing to trust again, but what they’re willing to do is leave the light on. They’re willing to leave the door open just a little bit. Now interestingly enough, many victims, including me, are actually leaving the door open.
Not leaving the door open for like remarrying him or anything like that. He’s the one who needs to stop excusing behavior on the causes of addiction. I don’t think I’ll ever unblock him for my phone. But no matter if you’re still married, separated, or divorced. You can move forward with your life and live in reality, and see what he’s going to do is exactly what the Living Free workshop is about. You can move forward with your life focusing on your own dreams and goals. And if he wants to step into reality, awesome.
He can at any time. But in the meantime, you’ll have emotional safety. You’ll have psychological safety. And those safety strategies are what the Living Free Workshop teaches. Thank you so much, Cindy, for sharing your story today. I appreciate you being here.
Cindy: Thank you, Anne.
The Surprise Thing the Bible Says About Boundaries in Marriage
Jul 19, 2022
If you’re wondering, “What does the bible say about boundaries in marriage?” Here’s what you need to know.
To understand your situation, start with this free emotional abuse quiz to determine if your husband is emotionally abusive.
Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, shares boundaries from a Christian perspective on the free BTR podcast. Tune in to the BTR podcast and read the full transcript below for more.
DOES THE BIBLE EVEN TALK ABOUT BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE?
Believe it or not, one of the most important boundaries that a woman can set for herself is to identify the abuse, no matter how difficult it is.
A lot of women worry about [identifying the abuse], because they think, ‘If I start focusing on it or I start to define the abuse then it will exist,’ but it exists anyways. The abuse is there whether you recognize it or not. Identifying it won’t make it worse, it will enable you to get to safety, which is awesome.
Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Setting an Education & Empowerment Boundary
Be on your guard. You need preparation. You need education about this. God doesn’t want us to stick our heads in the sand.
Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery
When women courageously choose to become educated about abuse and trauma, they may open the floodgates for difficult emotions like grief, anger, and fear. However, setting a boundary to learn about abuse and trauma can help victims lay a strong foundation as they begin their healing journey.
Separating Yourself From Abuse: Safety Boundaries
The primary purpose of a safety boundary is to facilitate a life that is as abuse-free as possible.
2 Corinthians 6:17 says, ‘Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord…’ There is a clear call for boundary setting with someone who is not exhibiting healthy behaviors, ‘Be ye separate.’
Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Separating from an abuser can help a victim see more clearly and determine what next steps to take.
What Do Safety Boundaries Look Like?
Setting safety boundaries can be confusing for many victims of emotional abuse and betrayal. Some helpful ideas include the boundaries:
“I choose to be treated with respect – if I am being abused, I will remove myself from that person and live somewhere else.”
“Because I feel unsafe when my partner yells at me. When I begin to feel unsafe, I will leave the room before he has the chance to yell.”
“If you set a boundary and you feel peace and you can breathe, because you feel safe, then you know that boundary is good.”
-Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Transcript: What Does The Bible Say About Boundaries In Marriage
Anne: It’s just me today. Before I discovered the Living Free strategies. I searched to figure out our deliverance, even before I knew the word deliver. Myself and my children from a situation that we were in because we were being abused for eight years, post divorce. And I couldn’t figure out how to protect us. So I searched and prayed a lot. And this episode is from back then, when I was studying the scriptures a lot.
So if you’re not interested in hearing me talk about scriptures, and what does the Bible say about boundaries in marriage? Maybe skip this episode. This is my study of boundaries. And since then, and through this process. I discovered the Living Free strategies. Which I used. And now my kids and I are completely free. And all the things I hoped for did come to pass. So that’s bringing me so much peace.
And I love sharing this with you, with hope and faith. Knowing that this is possible, even though it might be very hard. My goal is to bring you hope to take one step at a time. You can find the Living Free strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Which is a workshop that helps you see your husband’s true character, determine what is going on, and then gives you safety strategies.
The workshop itself doesn’t have any scriptures in it. I wrote it in a secular way, so that it would apply to everyone, no matter what their faith or paradigm.
Boundaries in the Scriptures
Anne: In the back of the workbook, there is a section that relates to the scriptures I studied, If you’re interested. I wanted to make sure anyone could use these strategies, because they work for everybody. They work no matter what. Learn more by clicking this link.
So the rest of this episode is from before then. When I studied about boundaries, I picked a specific pen color that I would read the scriptures with, and then I would underline and circle scriptures about boundaries. And then this episode explains when I came across the word deliverance, and I picked a different color for the word deliverance and started studying deliverance. So I hope you can benefit from hearing part of my process of discovering the Living Free strategies. All right, cue up the recording from years ago.
I am gonna focus on what the bible says about boundaries. So that you can see that there are many instances where God has told us to set boundaries. I think that will be helpful to you, and maybe give you some confidence. And also give you the support you need to set the boundaries you need to set for safety. It’s not a bad thing to start to define the abuse.
Many women are worried about that, because they think that if I define the abuse, it will exist, but it exists anyway. The abuse is there whether you recognize it or not. And so identifying it won’t make it worse. It will enable you to get to safety.
Examples of Boundaries in Matthew
Anne: So we have an example of boundaries in Matthew 25. Talking about the 10 virgins and the wise set a boundary. In verse 9, “the wise answered saying, not so, lest there be not enough for us and you, but go ye rather to them that sell and buy for yourselves.” And then in 10 it says, “And the door was shut.” So there we have an example of God supporting a boundary,
He’s talks about the unprofitable servant who wouldn’t do what he should do. And so in verse 30, it says, and cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So that guy did not like that boundary, and he screamed and yelled, and he threw a big fit, but God did it anyway.
And you don’t have the power, obviously, to throw somebody into outer darkness, but if you are wondering, “How do I set boundaries?” you have the power to create boundaries that work for you. It seems hopeless so many times, but it’s not. I want to give you that hope.
No contact is one of those boundaries that I think is helpful for victims. In Matthew 26, Jesus shows his version of no contact in verse 63. It says, “But Jesus held his peace.” Meaning, he doesn’t say anything. He just decides to go no contact in that scenario. Another example of Jesus shutting down communication is in Mark chapter 11, verse 33. He says, “neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
What does the bible say about boundaries in marriage: Warnings & Preparation
Anne: So Jesus says, you know what? You’re just going to use my words against me. I’m not going to talk to you about this. Now, some of us are frustrated that we’re in this situation in the first place, right? Why do we have to live in a world where this is happening?
But throughout the scriptures, moving into Luke chapter 10, verse 3. “God tells us, Behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves,” meaning be on your guard. You need to prepare. You need education about this. He doesn’t want us to stick our heads in the sand.
And in Luke, there is an awesome parable called the parable of the unjust judge. I did a whole podcast episode about Luke 18, specifically it is called Should You Stay Married After Infidelity? You’ll find that episode specifically about Luke 18. It is good, the insight that came to me as I studied it. I won’t go into that now, but I want you to listen to that episode.
Here’s another example of setting boundaries in marriage by not engaging in conversation in Luke 22. “They ask him, are thou the Christ?” And in verse 67, he says, “if I tell you, you will not believe. And if I also ask you, will you not answer me nor let me go?” He does not engage in their discussion.
Testing Boundaries
Anne: Now, this one is not regarding boundaries in marriage, but I like it. It’s John 7, verse 17. And it says, “if any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself.” And I think that’s true of boundaries. When you’re testing something and want to know if this is true or not, you’re not going to know if it works or if it’s good for you unless you try it.
And an abuser wants to control everything, and he doesn’t want you to try anything new. And he wants to make sure you don’t do anything that would make him uncomfortable. So when you experiment with how to set boundaries with your husband, it might make things worse for a little bit.
At the same time, if you set a boundary and feel more peace, you can breathe and you’re like, Oh, I feel safer. Then you can know that that boundary is good, but you can’t know things if you don’t do them. Someone who is never honest will never know why honesty is important. Someone who does not obey the law of chastity won’t know why the law of chastity is so awesome.
You can’t understand a principle if you do not live it. Except I don’t think you have to try drugs to know that they’re bad. Like, you don’t have to use pornography to know it’s bad. So, anyway, just take all that, what I said, with a grain of salt. There are so many things that I don’t say the right way. I appreciate you knowing that every word I say doesn’t always come out the exact right way. So thanks for your patience.
Christ uses Boundaries
Anne: Here’s another verse where Christ disengages. It’s John 8, verse 59. “Then they took up stones to cast at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.” So he doesn’t say, hey, don’t throw stones at me.
He is just out. And in John 9: 27, he’s again disengaging from conversation. “I have told you already, and you did not hear. Wherefore, would you hear it again? Would you also be my disciples?” Basically saying, we’re not going to get in an argument about this, because I’ve already told you, you already disagreed with me.
And so we’re done. My favorite example of Christ setting a boundary is during the three temptations, the one where Satan tempts him with throwing himself off a building, and instead of being tempted into an argument, which is what Satan was really tempting him with, he was not tempting him with throwing himself off a building, because that’s a stupid temptation, no one would do that.
He was tempting him with an argument, and instead of engaging in the argument, Christ says, “Get thee hence.” He sets a boundary of, I am not going to engage in this conversation with you. Because as we know, you cannot have an argument with Satan. It just leads to chaos and pain, and it never gets resolved. So in the Bible, after the Testaments of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, then Christ is crucified.
What does the bible say about boundaries in marriage: Paul’s Teachings on Boundaries
Anne: Then we have the Apostles, mainly Paul, talking about how to live the Christian life. There are a few misogynistic scriptures that I do not like that Paul wrote that I do not find comfort in. And instead of going into that, I would recommend you read Jesus Feminist, which is on our books page. But I will cover the scriptures from Paul that I find comforting. And I think you’ll find them comforting. Where Paul admonishes the righteous to set boundaries for their safety.
Here’s one about boundaries that can be applied to marriage. This is in Romans 16 verse 17, “Now I beseech you, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them.” Meaning notice who is not being honest or faithful or keeping the law of chastity, and avoid those people. Pretty cut and dry. He does not say, Oh, understand them, and make sure you don’t shame them, and make sure you listen to them and are safe enough for them to tell the truth. He just says avoid them.
In 2 Corinthians chapter 6 “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness, and what communion hath light with darkness. What agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God, and God hath said, I dwell in them, and walk in them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
“Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord.” There is a clear call for a boundary to be set with someone who is not exhibiting healthy behaviors. “Be ye separate.”
What does the bible say about boundaries in marriage: Ephesians & Thessalonians on Boundaries
Anne: In Ephesians chapter 5 verse 11, Paul says the same thing about boundaries. “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” The only way to reprove is to set a boundary. Because if we start telling them, hey, you can’t do this or you can’t do that, it just gets into an argument and makes things worse.
In 2 Thessalonians 3, verse 6, he says, “Now I command you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly.” Again, a clear call for boundaries from Paul. And this one, many people are familiar with, and it’s going to list a bunch of unhealthy behaviors, and then at the end it’s going to issue the call for the boundary. So, I’m going to read through this. It’s 2 Timothy chapter 3. This is talking about the perilous times that will come in the last days.
“This know also that in the last days perilous times shall come, for men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.From such, turn away.”
So the boundary is in verse five, and he says directly, “from such turn away.” He doesn’t say try to understand why they’re doing it and doesn’t say go to couple therapy with them. He doesn’t say make them dinner and do their laundry.
Boundaries vs. Vengeance
Anne: He says, from such, turn away. And then he says, “So do these also resist the truth. Men of corrupt minds reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further, for their folly shall be made manifest to all men.” Now a boundary is different than vengeance. So what I’m talking about and what Paul is talking about is setting a boundary for safety.
This is Hebrews 10 verse 30. “Vengeance belongeth unto me. I will recompense, saith the Lord. Again, the Lord shall judge his people.” So we know that like punishment or vengeance that belongs to God, but setting a boundary is for safety. That is different, that’s not what we’re talking about. And that’s not what Paul’s talking about.
Peter also teaches boundaries in second Peter chapter two, verse 17 and 18. He says, “These are wells without water, clouds carried with tempest, to whom the midst of darkness is reserved forever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh and through much wantonness.”
“Those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.” So that boundary is those who were clean escape from them who live in error. Here’s the epistle of John. He says, “If there are any come unto you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not unto your house, neither bid him Godspeed.”
And I’m going to end there. There are so many examples of boundaries in the scriptures. If you are a Christian and study the scriptures, I encourage you to choose a color for boundaries and start looking for it.
What does the bible say about boundaries in marriage: Personal Revelations & Commandments
Anne: The word deliverance, it comes up over and over again, in the bible when talking about boundaries in marriage, and how God enables the righteous to have the power of deliverance. Part of my spiritual practice is to attend the temple. And at the temple, you can make covenants with God, and you can also pray and ask questions and ponder. It’s a peaceful place to receive answers. So I went with some specific questions in mind. One of them is, what would you like to tell me about my ex?
One of them is, I’m super scared and worried about custody. And then, as I’ve been reading the scriptures, I’ve noticed that many people are commanded to do things that are outside the Ten Commandments. They’re outside of the regular commandments. Like, in the Book of Mormon, Lehi is commanded to leave Jerusalem.
Then later, once they get to the Promised Land, God commands Nephi to separate from Laman and Lemuel. And so I was wondering if God had any commandments specifically for me. So I asked, do you have a commandment specifically for me? So I wrote these questions down on a piece of paper, and I left enough space to write the answers. And I took this paper and a pen and then I prayed and I wrote these things down. So I’d like to share some of these answers with you. Maybe it would be helpful.
Answers to Prayers
Anne: What would you like to tell me about my ex? God said heed him not, he is deceived. Pay him no mind, he is blind. He is gone. Then I wrote I’m super scared and worried about custody, and the answer I received was fear not all will be well. You have been and will continue to be protected. Be comforted. Be at peace. Then I asked, what thing are you commanding me to do?
And this is interesting, because I’m not good at this. I’m not good at the thing he commanded me. He said, be still. be at peace. I am commanding you to be still and at peace. You will be delivered in due time. He is to you what the Lamanites are to the Nephites. And then he made a reference to the story in the Book of Mormon that I’m telling you about when Nephi, the righteous one, separated from his brothers, Laman and Lemuel.
The Nephites were the righteous people, and the Lamanites were the wicked people. And so he referred to this in this next part of what he told me. He said, He is to you, like the Lamanites are to the Nephites, to stir you up in the ways of remembrance, to make you mighty even unto the power of deliverance.
So then I started seeing this word deliver, deliver, deliver everywhere in the scriptures. As I was pondering this. The answer I received and what I wrote down was, You will be delivered. Keep the commandments and avoid all contact. You already have the power to hold no contact. Continue, you are powerful.
Encouragement & Hope
Anne: Your obedience brings power. The spirit brings power. You have all the power you need. You don’t have any less power than anyone else.
So whether you use some type of spiritual practice, whether you study scriptures, pray or meditate. I believe the situation we’re in is so much bigger than ourselves, and we need help, and this has happened with people throughout time. People have been in proximity to other people who are harming them. And God can show us a pattern for safety throughout the scriptures and through his personal answers. So I want to encourage you, if you are religious, to pray and ask God what you can do today to start making your way to safety.
And those who aren’t, just meditate on that, you know, ponder it, consider it. Open your heart to what steps you can take to a truly peaceful and happy life. There’s one other answer I want to share with you. As I prayed, he also commanded me to teach about abuse. teach about boundaries, drastically reduce my kids’ screen time. Do the nighttime reading routine consistently, and maintain no contact with my ex, which I already talked about.
And so I’ve been trying to follow those answers I received, and trying to improve my life little by little. It takes time. It takes effort. I think the main point of Betrayal Trauma Recovery is we get it. We have been there. We understand. Just take one step at a time out of the fog, and eventually you’ll turn around and look back, and you’ll realize it’s so much better.
What does the bible say about boundaries in marriage: Finding Peace
Anne: It’s no fun to be in this terrible situation and have someone say to you, It’s going to be okay. It’s not because we know it’s not okay. We know things are bad, but what I would like to offer is hope in the one step at a time method out of the fog.
I love you, and I’m so thankful. And honored that you listened to this podcast. It blows my mind, all the people who reach out and tell me their stories. I would love to hear your insights, stories, and things that you have learned along this path that could benefit other women in this situation.
So please, I’d love to hear your comments below. Also, your ratings and reviews on other podcasting apps help isolated women find us. I also appreciate all of you who share on Facebook or tag us on Instagram or other ways of sharing this message to other women who need to hear it, who need a message of peace, who need a message of hope that safety is possible and that they deserve it.
So that ends that old recording from years ago. Uh, since then, I have delivered my children, and I have found the peace I was looking for.
If I can help give women anything it’s hope. Because it’s so overwhelming and hopeless to be in this situation. I mean, I hoped, but I had no proof that it would happen. Everything seemed impossible.
Believe emotional & psychological safety is possible
Anne: But like Ted Lasso, I’d encourage you to believe. If you don’t believe in God, believe in yourself. Believe that emotional and psychological safety is possible. And God wants you to be able to set boundaries in your marriage. When I listened to my old self and remember where I was, it’s a testament to me. That we can achieve so much more than we think.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Living Free Workshop is specifically designed to help you determine your husband’s true character. To know exactly what’s going on, and then teach you specific safety strategies to protect yourself. Click that link to learn more.
What To Do When Your Child Watches Inappropriate Things
Jul 12, 2022
It’s hard to know what to do when your child watches inappropriate things. One dad shares his thoughts about protecting children from pornography.
Discovering that your child has been exposed to inappropriate content, such as pornography, can be deeply upsetting. Many parents feel unsure of how to handle the situation—should you confront them? Punish them? Ignore it altogether?
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery (BTR), we understand the complex emotions and challenges that come with situations like these.
The reality is that these moments are opportunities to teach your child critical values that shape how they view themselves, women, and relationships.
If you’re searching for information about this because you’re worried your husband is using pornography and your worried about when your child watches inappropriate things, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
Why Should It Matter When Your Child Watches Inappropriate Things?
Pornography isn’t harmless. It often perpetuates violence against women, portraying them as objects rather than equals, and reinforces exploitative behaviors for monetary gain. If you’re thinking you might be emotionally abused, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
These messages will influence your child’s beliefs about gender roles, relationships, and power dynamics in harmful ways. Teaching them healthy perspectives early is crucial to healthy relationships.
Step 1: Stay Calm
Finding out when your child watches inappropriate things can be triggering, especially if you’ve experienced betrayal trauma in your own marriage. However, staying calm is essential. Overreacting can shut down communication and make your child less likely to come to you in the future.
Instead, approach the situation with understanding and curiosity. A conversation might start like this:
“I noticed you came across something online that may seem confusing or upsetting. Can we talk about it?”
By fostering an open dialogue, you establish trust and create a safe space for them to express themselves.
Step 2: Teach Them to Be Feminists
Teaching boys to respect women as equals is one of the most effective ways to combat the negative influences of pornography.
Explain the importance of empathy, integrity, and valuing everyone as a person, not an object. Discuss what respect means in the context of friendships, relationships, and society. Share examples of strong women in your life or history who inspire you—they’ll start to understand the importance of equality in everyday life.
Step 3: When Your child watches inappropriate things: Explain How Women Are Exploited
Help your child understand the grim reality of the pornography industry. Many videos online feature individuals who have been coerced, manipulated, or abused. Explain how exploitation often fuels these depictions, and why making ethical choices online matters.
For example, you could say:
“A lot of people in those videos are hurt or taken advantage of. Watching that kind of content supports something very harmful to others.”
Shining a light on the exploitation behind pornography can help children grasp its consequences, fostering a sense of responsibility and compassion. When your child watches inappropriate things.
Step 4: Teach Them Media Literacy
The internet is full of content engineered to manipulate and desensitize users. Equip your child with the tools to critically evaluate what they see online. Teach them:
How algorithms work to feed suggestive content.
The importance of questioning the authenticity of what they see.
That their choices online reflect and shape their values.
When your child learns to think critically about what they’re exposed to, they gain the ability to make more informed decisions.
Step 5: When your child watches inappropriate things: Create a Safe, Porn-Free Environment at Home
When your child stumbles on inappropriate things because of your partner’s pornography use, it’s essential to address this issue on a family level. Some helpful first steps include:
Using parental controls and content filters on household devices.
Having regular conversations about internet safety.
Setting clear family rules about technology use.
Remember, a safe home starts with respect from all family members, including spouses.
Step 6: Model Healthy Behavior
Children absorb as much from what they see as from what they hear. Demonstrate mutual respect, healthy boundaries, and compassionate relationships in your daily interactions.
If you’re in a challenging situation with a partner who uses pornography, listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about how to keep your children safe from inappropriate things.
Support for Mothers Concerned About Their Families
At BTR, we understand the heartbreaking effects of a partner’s pornography use and the challenge of raising children in a world rife with inappropriate content. Our mission is to empower mothers to foster healthy, respectful environments for their families.
If you’re struggling with your husband’s pornography use and are concerned about its influence on your children, our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are here for you. These live, daily sessions offer the validation, encouragement, and practical support you need to create a safer, healthier home.
You don’t have to face this alone. Together, we create homes where respect, equality, and emotional safety thrive.
Transcript: What To Do When Your Child Watches Inappropriate Things
Anne: I’ve invited a father to come on today’s episode to talk about what to do when your child watches inappropriate things. Welcome, Randy.
Randy: Yes Anne, I am a father of five children. I’m actually about to be a father of six children. We just found out we’re going to have a boy in March. So my family is super excited right now. I’m also, of course, a husband, who has six children, and I’m a soldier.
I’ve been in the military for, 16 years. Currently my assignment is as a chaplain with the 19th special forces here in Utah. I’m also a former police officer. I was a police officer for almost seven years in a small town of Southern Utah, where I had tons and tons of experience of what we’re about to talk about.
Anne: So, let’s talk about how your experience as a husband, father, military chaplain and former police officer helped you realize how important it is to talk to our kids. And know what to do when our children watch inappropriate things like pornography.
A Life-Changing Moment in Iraq
Randy: Yeah, I was in Iraq with my unit, and during my time there, one of my battle buddies, a fellow soldier, got struck by an IED. During that event, he lost a limb and eyesight, and just tons and tons of damage to his body. And when he’s laying there on the ground, bleeding out, believing he’s about to pass away. His friend held him and cuddled him, and just, you know, gave moral support to tell him, you’re gonna survive.
You’re gonna survive. But during that moment in his life, he gave instructions to his friend. Saying, hey, this is where I have pornography hidden in my locker, computer and these other places. Make sure you destroy it all. Delete the files, get rid of everything before you send all my stuff home to my wife and my family. I don’t want them to know I look at that. When that happened, it was a mental shift for me. A huge mental shift.
Anne: My jaw just dropped, by the way, that that was like the number one thing on his mind. Like, not like tell my wife, I love her.
Randy: No, no, it shifted my life. Now I wish I could tell you, like after that, my kids will not have any issues. Well, guess what? We had issues in our family. It just again, it was a sucker punch to the gut. It was like, oh my goodness. Like what is going on? I know the science. I know what it looks like. Why did this happen? And so it sent me into a frenzy of studies, research, and interviews. And I searched everywhere for the answers.
When your child watches inappropriate things: The Metaphor of Battle
Anne: So in your culmination of all your research, you decide to frame the issue in a metaphor. Can you talk about why you chose this metaphor?
Randy: Yeah, absolutely. In the physical battle, the main thing a soldier does to their enemy is funnel your enemy soldiers into an area. You funnel them into a smaller area where they have to move slower and can’t fight back as well. They’re bunched together that way, as you’re firing on your enemy, it’s so much easier to hit them. That’s a quick analogy or metaphor, however you want to call it.
I remember as a child playing tag, and every once in a while, someone would forget to set the boundaries. And so kids would run all over the place. It was really, really hard to tag other kids. It’s almost impossible to tag other kids, because they could go anywhere and spread out all over the place.
However, when we play tag, we set the boundaries. No, don’t go past the playground. Don’t go past the sidewalk. Don’t go past mom or that tree. You set the boundaries that way. You bring all the other kids really close, and they’re easier to hit. They’re easier to tag. And the same thing is done in the pornography industry. They funnel us in, we’re easier to hit. And we get struck and we get struck over and over again.
But when I saw this, it just blew my mind. It’s the exact same tactical strategy.
Understanding the Battle at Home
Anne: Many listeners to this podcast are women who are married to or once were married to pornography users. Men who exhibit abusive behaviors of lying and gaslighting and emotional and psychological abuse. Related to their pornography use, affairs or other compulsive sexual activity. We have seen the battle in our own homes. We’ve witnessed it with our own eyes, and it feels like a battle. In fact, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it feels like I am on the front lines of a war zone every day, all day long.
So the metaphor of a battle is apt, and I appreciate it. I think women think of it that way. And as we try to protect our homes, and worry when your child watches inappropriate things, what tips would you have for parents to help educate their children about pornography?
Randy: You’re exactly right. This is a true battle. I mean, this is the battle and be very, very clear. I love technology, and I’m not telling anyone to remove technology from your life. I’m not telling you kids can’t ever use it. Nothing like that, because we need our children, our youth, to use it wisely. The number one tip I have for parents is that they have to have an open, honest, and frequent conversation with their children.
Now what I mean by that open is they have to be completely open to their youth, telling them everything about their life. Whether it’s masturbation, wet dreams, changes of the body, pornography, it has no prerequisites.
Viewing Children as Victims of Pornography
Randy: I know that sometimes in my life, my kids come up to talk to me, and I say, okay, I’m not going to talk to you until you do such and such thing. You know, it’s usually like go clean the room or something of that nature.
But we have to have a very open relationship with our youth, where there’s no prerequisites, where the youth can come and just spill everything out and get it out on the table. When your child watches inappropriate things, there’s not going to be any anger. There’s not going to be yelling. We want our kids to come to us and be open about what’s going on.
Anne: I think one thing that might help parents is that you’re talking to an abuse victim. So when a child has encountered pornography, the pornography has sexually abused them. It will always be an abuse issue. And if a child has seen it, the pornography has abused them itself.
You would never get angry with an abuse victim. Well, some people do. In fact, we have that happen all the time at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Where wives of users go into maybe clergy or a therapist, and they’re told like this is your fault, so we know how that feels. But when it comes to our children, if we think of them as victims of the pornography, rather than that they have done something wrong. Then it will help us know how to respond to them in a more effective way.
When your child watches inappropriate things: Open communication with children
Randy: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. When your child watches inappropriate things, there’s a reason they return to it. And you know what? It’s completely natural. It’s a completely natural reaction to be like that. And there are ways we can circumvent it, and work with our youth. They are not evil, bad people. So you’re exactly right. We have to have the open conversation with that in mind.
Anne: And that being said, if someone is abused as a child, it does not justify them becoming an abuser as an adult. So that being said, I don’t want to say that adult men who abuse their wives through lying or manipulation. Or other forms of psychological abuse through pornography use are the “victims” here. Because their wives and children are the victims.
But I think it’s important to think about children in that way. It will also help reframe this pornography fight that we’re having across the world, to help other people see that this isn’t just something like that all 12 year old boys see. And it’s sort of this, graduation into sex ed or something like that. But this is genuine abuse, and children deserve an abuse free childhood.
Randy: Yeah, I agree. And we have to help our children be ready for that.
Anne: And having that open door of communication is important.
Randy: Oh, amen. It’s imperative. You can have every block and everything on the phones and technology you want. Your youth, your kids can break through it in probably, 15 seconds. No matter what filters you have on your technology, if they want to, they will break through it.
The Importance of Honesty with Kids
Randy: So you have to have a conversation. That is the fail safe. That is the number one thing that’s going to keep your youth protected. When your child watches inappropriate things. They come to you and say, Hey, I made a mistake, and this is how I felt. And then you can help them protect themselves. I wanted parents to be empowered. I want them to talk to the youth. And I want to create that dialogue with their youth.
If they ask you, hey Mom or Dad, have you seen pornography? And you say, no, you have just lost the battle. You just lost. It’s all around us. It’s in the world. Your kids adore you more because you are honest with them. And my kids are the same. I have a much better relationship with my kids, because they know that I’m a human and make mistakes. They can come talk to me about their mistakes, because I talked to them about my mistakes.
Anne: My sons hate mermaids because they think mermaids are pornography, which I think is cute. And they’re like, we hate mermaids. All they wear are those dumb shell breast covers, Mom. And so my daughter, who is five, loves mermaids. So currently in our home, there is this sort of mermaid debacle where she would like to watch the Barbie mermaid show. And they’re like, no, that’s pornography.
It’s very cute that they’re all having that discussion. And I don’t know what the answer is. I’m like, I don’t know you guys, I don’t know what the answers are, but I’m so glad that you’re considering this. Right? I’m so glad that you’re bringing this up and saying, she shouldn’t watch mermaids.
Pornography as Landmines
Anne: Those are the types of fights I love to see, I guess. Yeah, have an open dialogue. So I just let her watch her mermaid show that she wants to watch that is age appropriate when my sons are not around.
Randy: Now in life, in battle, everyone knows what landmines are, right? They’re little explosives. You put them under the dirt or grass. You hide them. And later on, a person walks or drives by, and it explodes. That’s what pornography is. The industry, the internet, there are individuals out there laying landmines everywhere. And when we did our research, it blew our minds. Where many of these landmines are hidden.
They’re being hidden in the craziest places all over for our kids to step on. Just to give you a little tidbit, I have spoken to about eight youth and their parents in the last week. Who have told me they’ve become addicted to pornography. They were exposed to their first pornography at school on the computers at the school.
So this is huge. I mean, this is where we feel kids should be safe, and the closed systems, yada, yada, yada. They’re not. I guess some of the most shocking, but in places where our youth are being hit with landmines. Landmines are placed, hidden, and stay there. They stay there forever until someone steps on them. And that’s what pornography is on the internet. People are going out there and placing them all over the place, and they just sit there and wait until our youth step on them. And then we have a huge mess to deal with.
Additional Resources
Anne: Yeah, it is a huge mess. Well, Randy, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. We didn’t talk about this, but I put some things that I would recommend in terms of how to teach them gender equality. And about abuse in the text before the transcript of this episode: Why should it matter when your child watches inappropriate things? You can read my suggestions on this. I’d love to hear your thoughts about it, so please comment below.
Thank you so much, Randy.
Randy: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Self Care After Emotional Abuse: Here’s How To Heal
Jul 05, 2022
Are you struggling with self care after emotional abuse? Here are 6 ways to help yourself heal.
Did you know there are 19 types of emotional abuse? To start your healing journey, first take this free emotional abuse quiz to determine exactly what type of emotional abuse you experienced.
When They Call You Crazy: Self-Care Tip
Tragically, their abusive partner, their families, friends, and others call many victims of betrayal, and relational abuse implicitly or outright “crazy.”
The implications of being labeled crazy, codependent, and overly sensitive are intensely damaging to already-fragile victims. Others condition victims of relational abuse and betrayal to believe what others tell them, especially negative things about themselves (the victims).
If you have been told that you are crazy, or any other distressing label, know that you are not crazy and you are not alone.
One helpful self care after emotional abuse tip for women who have been treated so insidiously by others, is to find a safe person, or safe community, to validate you, support you, and answer your questions.
When Everything Feels Confusing: Self-Care Tip
Anne compares living in an abusive relationship to ending up stranded in the mountainous wilderness. You’ve survived, but you have no idea where you are, or how you will return to civilization alive.
As victims try to understand what is happening to them, they may feel overwhelmed, depressed, and even terrified. Most women do not consider themselves victims of abuse until they have learned about abuse and trauma. Covert abuse is notoriously difficult to detect, and when victims spend their time trying to appease their abusive and unfaithful partner, they simply don’t have the time or energy to discern the abuse.
If you are confused, lonely, and afraid to make decisions, a self-care after emotional abuse action that you might take is setting safety boundaries. Simply deciding what makes you feel safe emotionally, physically, and spiritually – versus what makes you feel unsafe. Jotting these points in a journal or on your computer may help you better understand your current safety level and what decisions you can make to increase your safety.
When Life Is Falling Apart: Self-Care Tip
Most victims of betrayal and abuse eventually reach a place where life feels completely unraveled.
If you’re having trouble with the day-to-day tasks, or if the grief seems overwhelming to you, or if your husband’s “addiction” and all his recovery efforts have completely swallowed your self-care or identity, I invite you to take a step back, detach a little bit, and think, ‘What do I need to take care of myself? What habits do I need?
Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery
The chaos that abusive men create in relationships, families, and communities is so immense and overpowering that victims may feel that getting out of bed each day is an enormous feat, only possible with incredible grit and willpower.
If you are feeling this level of trauma and exhaustion, consider your health with these questions:
Did I eat enough today?
Am I hydrated?
If I’m not sleeping well at night, can I take a nap today?
When women experience betrayal trauma, their bodies react by shutting down or going into hyper-drive. As victims decide to protect and nourish their own bodies through nutrition, hydration, and rest. They are better equipped to continue their journey to healing. I created the Meditations in The Living Free Workshop to help women immediately get relief from some of this trauma.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Supports Victims of Betrayal and Abuse
At BTR, we understand betrayal trauma in marriage and the paralyzing devastation of abuse. Every single woman who has gone through this debilitating trauma deserves a safe place to process reality, ask important questions, express difficult feelings, and make connections with other victims.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets daily in every time zone and offers women a community of validation, support, and compassion. Join today and begin practicing the self care that will help you find true safety.
Transcript: Self Care After Emotional Abuse
Anne: Before I get to today’s topic, which is from a Wall Street Journal article entitled Standing Against Psychiatry’s Crazies. And also give you a self care update about where I am in my self care situation. I want to talk about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. It is our daily support group. And we have 26 sessions per week in a four week month. That’s 104 sessions per month, which equals 156 live hours with a professional coach.
That is the least expensive professional live support in the world. That comes down to 80 cents per hour. And we built it that way on purpose. Why did we do it like that? Because we’ve been through it. When I went through it, I didn’t know how to pay the bills. I literally didn’t know how to buy groceries, because my ex cut off my bank account and didn’t give me money for groceries.
So I know that money is on your mind. And we wanted to ensure that you can get high quality support for very low cost. And we have professional individual sessions. Whatever works for you, works for us.
I also want to talk about why Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is completely online. It is because I was a bit agoraphobic when the trauma first hit. I didn’t want to go anywhere, put my bra on, or get out of bed. I mean, I was having a hard time. So we wanted to remove all barriers to getting help and self care after emotional abuse.
Self care after emotional abuse: Forming Real Connections Online
Anne: Some days have five sessions a day. You never have to get childcare, put your bra or makeup on. You don’t have to pay for gas, or need a car and can come online and talk to real people.
And even though it’s online, you can form amazing close relationships. So many other services out there, you’re texting a faceless coach, and they might not get back to you right away. You might be just watching modules or videos, but you’re not actually able to share your story and feel the love coming back to you.
Check out the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session schedule, click on this link. We built this with you in mind, for you, to meet your specific needs for self care after emotional abuse based on what we went through and based on what our needs were. We don’t want any other woman in the world to suffer in isolation or to try and get help and get the wrong kind of help, okay.
Okay, on to today’s topic. So my amazing mother, who’s been on the podcast before, who you have heard, she is a reader. One of the things she reads is the Wall Street Journal and in an interview with Paul McHugh by Abigail Shrier, I hope I’m pronouncing their names accurately. It is entitled Standing Against Psychiatry’s Crazies.
Paul McHugh’s Perspective
Anne: In a nutshell, what this article says is that sometimes the psychiatric or therapeutic community doesn’t know what they’re talking about. And I’m thinking about betrayal trauma. Sometimes when others give women this awful diagnosis, this is an example of armchair psychology. Or they diagnose them as codependent. Or they tell them, you’ve got all these problems that you need to resolve.
When victims of abuse should be told, this is an abuse situation. This is going to be painful, but you will get better. Like, what you are going through is completely normal, and how you’re feeling is completely normal, and you are completely normal. As you work toward healing, you’re going to be fine. It’s hard to feel that when we’re going through it, but that’s the truth. Especially if we walk toward healing and self care after this kind of abuse. And this is what it says.
His contrarian roots run deep. He was a diminutive boy in the 1940s. When psychoanalysts had popularized the notion that physical deficiencies, including short stature, produced inferiority complexes. Especially in boys and men, he became a prime candidate for the experimental growth hormone therapies. But Paul’s father, a school teacher, decided against the treatments recommended for his son.
Shortness wouldn’t be the worst problem he’d have to face, the Elder McHugh reasoned. As it turned out, the animal derived pituitary treatments were ineffective. The human derived form sometimes carries infectious agents that cause Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Again, I don’t know if I correctly pronounced that, an incurable degenerative brain disorder.
Critique of DSM Checklist Psychiatry
Anne: He says, “I know my life would have been easier if I had four or five more inches,” says McHugh. Who now stands five foot six, but his childhood experience taught him a lesson that helped him become a giant in this field. Sometimes psychiatry’s cure is far worse than the disease.
McHugh believes that psychiatrists first order of business should determine whether a mental disorder is determined by something the patient has. A disease of the brain or something the patient is or something a patient is doing. Behavior such as self-starvation or something the patient has encountered a traumatic or otherwise disorienting experience.
Practitioners too often practice what he calls DSM checklist psychiatry. “Matching up symptoms from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders with the goal of achieving diagnosis. Rather than inquiring deeply into the sources and nature of an affliction. I came into psychiatry with the perception that it had not matured as a clinical science in which rational practices are directed by information on the causes and mechanisms of the disorders,” Dr. McHugh says.
Every other medical discipline has that. He still regards psychiatry is in need of organizing principles. “That’s putting it mildly,” says the author of the article, Abigail Schreier.
Self care after emotional abuse from Sex Addiction
Anne: So let’s talk about this concept in the context of addiction. What we see right now is a slew of words. Addiction, pornography addiction, intimacy disorder, intimacy anorexia, compulsive disorder. People are trying to figure out what to label these behaviors. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve made it really simple. It’s called abuse. All these behaviors can be under the umbrella of abuse.
And these behaviors need to stop. The victim of these behaviors needs to learn a new skill, which is setting boundaries. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with her. She’s not codependent or crazy. She not in this situation because she had a messed up childhood, she’s just fine. And she will grieve, because she’s a victim of abuse, obviously. She needs to learn a new set of skills and self care that she hadn’t learned before because of emotional abuse.
It’s like if you were in a plane crash in the middle of the mountains, and you survived. But you didn’t know where you were, and you had to learn new skills in that moment. You might have to learn how to hike if you’ve never hiked before. You might have to learn how to. start a fire. And you might have to learn a bunch of different things. We’ve all seen survival movies. The most famous might be Cast Away, where when he lands on the island, he doesn’t know how to spear a fish.
He doesn’t know how to open a coconut. He doesn’t know how to make rope. And in the five years he spends on that island, he learns a ton of amazing survival skills.
Personal Self Care Journey
Anne: That’s how it is to be in an abusive relationship. There’s nothing wrong with you. Your husband victimized you, and now you need to learn new skills. And the skills that you’ll learn from this experience will benefit you the rest of your life. Just like the skills someone learned in a survival scenario would benefit them the rest of their lives.
One of the skills I’m learning I did well when I was single before I got married. So I got married when I was 30, and I had my oldest son 10 months later or-ish. I’m so bad with time. I was married in August and had my son in July, so I don’t know how many months that is. Immediately when I married, my self care sort of fell apart. Before, when I was single, I could work out every day. I ate well, I made sure that if I had an injury, I got into the doctor.
I’ve always loved extreme sports, well individual sports might be the better word, like skiing, mountain biking, rock climbing, rowing, those types of sports. And so I’d had several neck injuries from all my adventures and I had had a few neck surgeries. And so going to the chiropractor was important. When I did yoga every day back then, I was good at that.
But after getting married, it was like my whole world got off kilter. I gave up my entire life for him. So I left my job that I loved. I worked at the same school for six years and loved my friends there. I developed my own program, and my job was exactly what I wanted as a school teacher.
self care after emotional abuse: Husband’s arrest Pulled me out of a terrible situation
Anne: And I chose to leave all that and go on an adventure for my husband. So everything kind of got thrown off and I just basically gave up everything to be a couple or to be with him and to make our life together. And then everything centered around him and his moods and what I could do for him and, you know, all this stuff.
When he got arrested because of an abuse incident, he was suddenly gone. I needed to focus on myself, which I should have done before. I should have had that skill. But I was just in this vortex of abuse, and I was so confused and couldn’t figure out how to get out. One of the things that has struck me lately is that God literally like pulled me out of a terrible situation. I had been praying, I had been wondering what to do, and then my ex got arrested and I got the protective order, which I had never even considered.
And so then I held it, but I didn’t know how to do any of those things before that happened to me. So I’m not this amazing, like wise person who quickly got myself out of an abusive situation. Well, no, it was a disaster and a complete mess. And the only reason why I ended up out of it and seeing it for what it was, was because of that arrest.
And I am so grateful. It happened suddenly and it was super traumatic, but it was the right thing. Let’s talk about self care after emotional abuse. This has been hard for me for the past 10 years of my life.
Self care after emotional abuse: Atomic Habits and Daily Routines
Anne: So I recently read a book called Atomic Habits by James Clear, which I would highly recommend to everyone. It was an eye opener for me about how to structure daily habits in a way that works for me. In reading that book, I realized that part of the reason why it’s been so difficult for me to do daily self care is because I had to think about every little thing because I didn’t have any established habits.
So, making the bed was super difficult. Like, if I got it done, it was a miracle. Putting eyedrops in was a miracle. My eyes are problematic in many ways. And one of them is that I’m an impartial blinker, and there’s nothing you can do to control it. It’s involuntary. When the doctor told me I was like, Oh, that’s a good to know.
At least some part of me is impartial to something, because I have an opinion about everything. When I found that out, I knew I needed to do eyedrops every day, but doing that was difficult. Just basically getting anything done was hard. I could only do one thing a day. And I remember talking to my sister, she said, okay, what are the things you need to do?
And I was like, I want to read my scriptures every day. I want to pray every day. I’m pretty good at that. I usually get that done, but it’s not like always at the same time. I want to exercise, and eat right. Also I want to spend more time with my kids. I want to make my bed or, you know, whatever. And, we’d make these goals, and it seemed so overwhelming to add self care after this kind of abuse.
Structuring Habits For Self Care
Anne: I couldn’t do all the things. I could only do one thing. At the beginning of the self care process, I would be like, I made my bed today, and then everything else would fall apart. Or, I put eye drops in, and then everything else would fall apart. This book has helped me structure my habits so that I don’t have to think about self care.
Now I have turned the corner. I make my bed every day without much thought, which is awesome. I put eyedrops in. And I am exercising every day. Now I’m going to yoga. The dishes get done in a more easy fashion. So if you’re having trouble with the day-to-day tasks, or if the grief seems overwhelming to you. Or if your husband’s “addiction,” and all his recovery efforts, have completely swallowed your self care or identity. The whole goal here is to start taking care of yourself. That’s the goal here.
And if he chooses to stop being abusive, great. And if he doesn’t, either way, you are on the path to a happy and peaceful life. One of the things I decided to do is what I call a weekly self care power hour. And I’m going to cycle through six things every six weeks. And one of them will be a meditation from the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. That’s going to be a little different than my daily self care. I don’t know what self care will look like for you.
It might look like making your bed every day, it might look like meditating every day, it might look like praying and reading your scriptures every day. Those are all the things I do in my self care.
The theme of today’s episode is you’re not crazy. You are not sick. Your husband or ex lies about what happened in order to discredit you.There is nothing wrong with you. You are just in a survival situation, and the exciting thing is that the skills you learn right now will benefit you the rest of your life.
If I were you, and I’m listening, and it was me back four years ago. I would have wanted to say, this lady, I don’t like her. She doesn’t get it. She doesn’t understand how painful it is. That’s what I would have said four years ago. So if you’re saying that right now, it’s okay. I have been there, but I’m also feeling so good. Because I’ve come out the other side. And what helped me do that was an amazing network of women who understood. The education that came to me due to studying abuse led me to where I am now, and I’m so grateful.
Christian Help For Infidelity: When You Don’t Know What To Do
Jun 28, 2022
Your husband’s infidelity is heartbreaking. As a Christian, this truth remains constant—you’re called to protect yourself from evil and pursue spiritual safety. If you’re looking for Christian help for infidelity, here’s what you need to know.
If you’ve just discovered your husband’s infidelity, start with this free emotional abuse quiz to see if what else might be going on.
What’s The Spiritual Problem?
If you’ve been led to believe that the betrayal in your marriage is because you haven’t prayed enough or prayed enough yet.
If your husband or clergy has told you that infidelity is your fault because you didn’t submit to him? These are evil lies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcKBBYifx2I
The infidelity had nothing to do with how you communicate, how you look, or even how often you’ve been intimate. YOU are not the problem. Adultery is a sin. Nowhere in scripture does it say a man’s sins are the fault of his wife’s eye rolling.
The Best Christian Help For Infidelity: The Word of God
Scripture reminds us of the importance of standing against wickedness and seeking freedom from harm. Here are a few powerful verses to encourage and guide you as you seek to deal with his infidelity as Christ would:
Ephesians 5:11 – “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.”
Proverbs 4:23 – “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.”
James 1:27 – “…to keep oneself unstained by the world.”
These scriptures show that separating yourself from abuse and deception is what God wants for you—it’s biblical. You are not called to suffer in silence or endure abuse for the sake of appearances or misguided concepts of forgiveness.
Healing From Infidelity Christian
Jesus didn’t come to keep you stuck in pain. He came to bring freedom, peace, and healing.
Luke 4:18-19 tells us His mission was to set captives free and lift up the oppressed. That doesn’t mean women should remain in a marriage where there’s infidelity or emotional abuse, sacrificing her well-being for a man who takes the name of God in vain when he claims to love God, but his actions prove otherwise.
The Bible reminds us to pay attention to actions, not just words. Matthew 7:16 says, “You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?” And in 1 John 3:18, we’re encouraged to “not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.”
Healing After Infidelity Christian
If your husband’s actions don’t reflect God’s love, He commands you to prioritize your safety and peace. Jesus came to deliver you from evil. He never asked you to submit to it.
Facing Misguided Clergy or Pressure
Sadly, some people might tell you to stay with a man who is hurting you or taking advantage of you. For example, kind people like clergy or members of your community might say this.
They might even tell you that staying shows your faith or that it’s a good sacrifice. Also, others might say that if you just pray hard enough, God will change your husband. But, it’s important to remember that no one should have to stay in a situation where they are being hurt.
Dealing With Infidelity As A Christian
This is not what Christ intended. God calls us to live in safety and truth, not submission to evil. You don’t have to be an “abuse victim for Jesus.” Jesus fights for the oppressed and calls for justice.
Of course, you can pray for your husband to repent, but what does that have to do with remaining in proximity to his harm?
Get Educated About Abuse:Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee. Our Savior wants us to be educated, especially about abuse. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn about what other Christian women did when they discovered their husband’s infidelity.
Infidelity Christian Counseling
Establishing Safety: Learn strategies to protect yourself from emotionally, physically, and spiritually abusive behaviors. To learn more, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop
Biblical Help When You Discover Your Husband’s Infidelity
The Bible encourages you to cast out evil from your presence. That is Christian help for infidelity. This could include separating from a husband who lies, manipulates, and emotionally abuses you. Choosing safety is NOT a sinful decision—it’s one of strength and faith.
Consider practical steps to safeguard your wellbeing:
Seek Truth and Healing: Trust in God’s plan for your freedom, and explore tools like our Living Free Workshop to build a better, safer life.
Christ Is With You – Even After Infidelity
Jesus came to bring hope to those hurting, and freedom to those who feel trapped. He cares about your pain and sadness. You deserve a life full of peace and hope. Start healing from infidelity today with Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Christian Marriage Counseling For Infidelity
Transcript: Christian Help For Infidelity
Anne: I have a pastor on today’s episode, we’re going to call him pastor Pete. He talks to a lot of women in his congregation who have just discovered their husband‘s sexual addiction. And he’s been known to say that when men have a “sexual addiction,” or when they use pornography, that they’re participating in sexual assault.
Welcome Pete. Can you talk about why you came to that conclusion that a sexual addiction. In other words, viewing pornography participates in sexual assault.
Pete: Sure, a little background, many years ago, talking to men and hearing them. I realized that one of the real desires they had in getting married was to find someone upon whom they could act out all the pornography they had seen over the years. And that just showed me how much today’s young men have been immersed in pornography. This was something new to me. You know, as somebody who grew up before the internet, I didn’t have that kind of access to it from a young age, as so many people do today.
There’s something intrinsically violent about pornography. There’s something intrinsically violent about that kind of sexual transgression. And I really came to see even more that most people involved in making pornography are doing so against their will. Or they’re doing so because it’s their last option. So they seek Christian help for infidelity.
And I’m sure you know that tons of the pornography in the world comes from impoverished countries. Where people are taken advantage of, or this is the only way they can earn some money. And for us to look at pornography, we must participate in that violence.
Biblical Perspective on Sexual Ethics
Pete: As you look at the Bible, you look at what it’s like to think as a Christian. God made us so he can tell us how to live. He can set the standards, set the rules. And we find early in the Bible, the 10 commandments, right? These commandments govern human behavior, both in our relationship to God and our relationship to other people.
As we continue to read the Bible and Jesus comes, we find out what we should have known. Many people knew all along. Which is that these 10 laws, these 10 rules, weren’t binary. As long as you don’t commit adultery, you’re fine. We realized that each of these laws actually summarizes a much wider ethic. And so Jesus would say, “You have heard it said. You shall not commit adultery.” Right? So that’s what people have been told us what the law says. That is Christian help for infidelity.
And then he would say, but I say to you, anyone who looks at another person lustfully is guilty of breaking that law. So he took the very defined, specific law and made it very broad. It was meant to be that way all along, to hold that standard of do not commit adultery. It’s not just to not fall into bed with somebody to whom you’re not married. But it’s to honor other people. It’s to not think lustfully about them.
As we expand what’s meant by these laws, we see that if we participate in a sin that demands violence, we’re also participating in that violence.
Live for the good of other people
Anne: Yeah, I’m so grateful for the commandments for this reason. They’re not just a criteria for whether we get into heaven. I like how you said they’re not binary. Like, if you commit adultery. You won’t go to heaven. And if you don’t commit adultery, you will go to heaven. Instead, the commandments are about our relationships and how we interact with other people.
And this is God saying, I love all my children. While you’re down there. I don’t want you to hurt anybody else. The commandments are more about. Whether we harm other people in this life. Are we making the world a better place? Are we making it more peaceful?
Can we create heaven in our relationships right now? It’s sad to me that so many Christians don’t think of the commandments in this way. Because if every person in the world obeyed the commandments, the level of destruction and harm caused to other people would be greatly reduced.
I mean, we all make mistakes. There are so many ways that we can harm others accidentally, even if our intent is good and we’re still obeying the commandments, but the level of harm would be seriously reduced.
Pete: Sure, and you think about how Jesus summarized those laws. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. Christian help for infidelity includes all those ten laws summarized in two.
Live for the glory of God. And to do that, you live for the good of other people. And so if everyone on this earth lived for the glory of God, how do they do that? By only ever doing good to other people.
Christian help for infidelity: Change from the inside out
Pete: Jesus says adultery is not just having a sexual relationship with someone to whom you’re not married, but even lusting. It’s even desiring, looking at that person, as an object, objectifying the person. According to Jesus’s standard, when your heart desires something in that way, you’ve given your heart to it, you’re allowing your heart to long for it.
You’re still guilty of that sin. Because Jesus isn’t just interested in moderating our behavior as if we can have evil desires. But as long as we restrain those desires, we’re good. No, we’re to be changed from the inside out. It’s where desires are good, and therefore our behavior is good. What we do simply reflects who we are on the inside. And so we’re to be changed, transformed from the inside out. That is Christian help for infidelity.
Anne: Yeah, and he’s not just sinning against the women in pornography and lusting after them. But in so doing, he’s not paying attention to his wife or giving her the attention she deserves or needs. So it’s both that he’s harming the women in the pornography by participating in an exploitative, abusive industry. And he’s also withholding love, affection, and support from his wife.
Pete: Right, and then you can go farther to say you’re also showing your discontent with God. You’re criticizing God for not giving you someone or giving you something. And you’re expressing this dissatisfaction in how God has related to you. As if he’s holding back. So I don’t think we can overestimate the depravity of human nature as displayed in this kind of sin.
The Deceit in Sexual Sin
Anne: Yeah, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we call it abusive. We say pornography use is abusive to your spouse. And some people have told me that’s too extreme. And I tell them there’s no other word I can think of that shows the severity of this behavior. It is so harmful that just to say, it’s not good, isn’t going far enough.
Pete: Mm-Hmm, yeah, and you know, before I came on here, I had to spend some time thinking about that, and I haven’t yet reached a conclusion. I certainly understand why you say it, and I completely agree in many cases.
Anne: From my point of view, I would say every instance is abusive in and of itself, whether the person is an abuser. Do they know it’s harmful and continue to engage in it? And also, do they lie? Do they manipulate people to hide their behavior? Let’s let’s talk about that for a minute. Let’s talk about the deceit when men seek Christian help for infidelity.
Pete: Yeah, deceit, when people commit this sin, they cover their tracks. That deceit can take different forms. That deceit can cover up your behavior. So erasing your browser history in the hope that people won’t see it. It can be the failure to report behavior. And then there’s the deceit of even, as a Christian, you know,
The Lord’s Supper is an ongoing ritual Christians participate in that draws us close to Christ. And before we take Lord’s Supper, we’re meant to examine ourselves and see, do I have any behavior in my life that is ongoing and unrepentant that I’m refusing to conform my behavior to what God calls me to?
The Consequences of Unrepentant Sin
Pete: And if week after week, I’m participating in the Lord’s Supper. I’m deceiving people around me. And in a sense, I’m trying to deceive God um, ultimately. Unrepentant sin like that can be proof that I’m not truly a Christian.
Anne: Many of our clients at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, their husbands, are participating in that level of deceit. And that would be another reason why I use the word abuse.
Pete: Yeah, and I think we’re all capable of distinguishing between people who didn’t know they were just young and immature versus the person who is really being deceptive and hiding it. From 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, where Paul, was writing to a church. And he’s really warning them about sexual immorality. He’s telling them of the importance as a Christian, you become Christians. How do you behave now that you’re a Christian? When you want Christian help for infidelity? You’re to abstain from sexual immorality.
And the positive side of that commandment is to control your own body, holiness, and honor. He warns that nobody’s to wrong another, because the Lord is an avenger. When he uses that word wrong, that’s related to greed or fraud. So he’s essentially saying that this kind of sexual sin, in which pornography would fall under, is a form of defrauding other people.
Christian help for infidelity: The Escalation of Pornography Addiction
Pete: When people do pornography, initially a small amount will satisfy, but they have to push themselves into darker stuff and into greater quantity. And as you study the human brain, you understand why. Your body craves deeper and deeper chemical experiences. It takes more and more.to give you the same experience that you wanted.
And if you talk to certain people who have been addicted to drugs or something. They may say they’ve been chasing that first high, you know, that first time they experienced heroin, that it gave them some experience. They’ve always been trying to find again. Pornography can be like that. You spend your whole life indulging in it to a deeper degree, trying to recover the shock, the electric feeling you had the first time.
Anne: Yeah, we see that all the time, how it escalates. So as a Christian, I feel like pornography leaves a void, and some of my listeners aren’t religious. But for our Christian friends, who want Christian help for infidelity, why do you think the spirit is so offended by pornography, and why does it warn so strongly against it?
Pete: This Spirit engages with us to warn us away from sin and to assure us that we can overcome any temptation through His power. Sin is never inevitable. We’ve always got, through the Holy Spirit, what we need to say no to that sin and do what’s right. Over time, when we give in to a sin like pornography again and again, we’re constantly shoving the spirit away. We’re constantly saying, no, we don’t want to take hold of what you’re offering us. Eventually, it’s like the spirit hands us over to our sin. You can read about that in Romans chapter 1.
Anne: Yeah.
The Importance of Truth, Forgiveness & Boundaries
Anne: And it’s not just with sexual sin, it’s also with truth. Men who engage in this type of abusive behavior continually refuse to be honest. They have a sort of fantasy world that they’ve created and live in where they’re a victim. My belief is that truth is their only way out.
Christian help for infidelity, you know, a Christian teaching that I think I interpreted incorrectly that kept me stuck for so long. It was my belief in forgiveness. And I want to talk about that for just a minute. So I was continually forgiving and so grateful for the Lord’s grace and his love. and mercy, knowing that people can repent, and looking forward to my husband’s repentance. Not knowing that he wasn’t repenting. He was just lying in manipulating me.
In fact, my ex would say things like don’t you believe in Jesus? And he was basically asking me to tolerate his abuse in the name of Jesus. Which is of course taking the Lord’s name in vain, which is against the commandments, in addition to the lying and adultery. I want to ensure that women are educated about abuse, so that we can be at the feet of Jesus and partake of his grace and goodness. I believe Christ’s atonement covers the consequences, so I can move toward peace.
Pete: Yeah, I forgive you, and we’re getting a divorce are not mutually exclusive things. You have violated your vows in this marriage through adultery. And even while I forgive you, that’s not the same as saying, I’m going to stay married to you. That forgiveness doesn’t mean the eradication of all consequences. You know, the abused can’t maintain a relationship with the abuser.
Able to Forgive when safe from abuse
Pete: Christian help for infidelity can often be confused. Those things where to say, I forgive you means, Oh, and I’m not going to report this behavior to the police. Or I forgive you, it means we had to stay married. I want to distinguish between those things. And I also think we can be too quick to forgive in the sense of we haven’t seen remorse and repentance from that person.
Anne: From my experience, I was only able to truly forgive when I was safe from the abuse. So my ex-husband, he continues to lie and manipulate people and claim he’s the victim. Because of that, I’ve cut off all contact with him. And I look forward to the day where he can live in truth.
But since that’s not the case now, the way I think about forgiveness is that he owes me a debt. He owes me truth and fidelity to our marriage vows. He owes me a lot, you know, child support, and he won’t pay a bunch of stuff like that. So releasing him from the debt he owes me, releasing my desire for him to pay me with truth, honor, and goodness, it made it so much easier for me to separate myself from him and protect myself.
Christian help for infidelity: Living in Peace and Freedom
Pete: Yeah, I guess I’d want us all to think about the value of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the good news of what Jesus has done. She doesn’t live before this person, as if he’s the one who judges her, as if he’s the one who she has to please. She lives before Jesus Christ. She’s been fully and finally accepted, and she can now live in peace and freedom. She’s not captive to this other person, to this abuser. So the gospel of Jesus Christ is such such good news.
Anne: I have such gratitude for God for giving us these commandments that can help us be safe. And I want to share that women in this situation, obeying the commandments yourself, will bring so much power into your life. As I have chosen to obey the commandments, and so many other women in this situation have. God enables us to walk through the Red Sea on dry ground. When we get across the Red Sea, we have to wander around the wilderness. It’s not an easy road, but as we are obedient, the Lord will bless us.
Thank you so much for coming on this episode today to talk about Christian help for infidelity.
Pete: You’re very welcome.
Taking One Step at a Time
Anne: I realized recently, I haven’t said thank you for listening to my podcast. This podcast has received over 330,000 downloads now. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being here with me through my journey of healing. It is humbling to think that so many women are listening. I appreciate your support. In September, the kids return to school, and sometimes it feels like things might improve, but this time of year is really hard for me.
My ex was arrested on September 18th. A month after school had started. So this time of year, I think back on that. My life has changed so much. I learned how to set boundaries. I started podcasting. And I’ve heard all your amazing stories. I can focus on my children. And have hope for the future. I’m amazed to be at this point to look back. And realize that I’m feeling positive when I never thought I would feel like this. I received Christian help for infidelity.
I don’t have that feeling in my gut that something bad’s going to happen anymore and don’t live with dread daily. So if you’re in that stage, I understand. I’ve been there. Just keep taking one step at a time.
Wondering If Your Husband Has A Sex Addiction? How to Know
Jun 21, 2022
Have you ever wondered how to know if your husband has a sex addiction? You’re not alone. On The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, women who ask this same question share how they found out if their husband was a sex addict.
Anne Blythe, M.Ed., host of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, interviews Naomi, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community – a community for wives of addicts.
As women learn about the trauma his behavior has caused, they empower themselves to voice their stories and feelings. This paves the way for healing.
Further, when a woman understands all the facets of how his addiction affects her, she’s able to make decisions to protect herself.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand the struggle to know if your husband has aN addiction.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions offer women the validation, support, and community that they deserve. Attend a session today and begin your healing journey.
Transcript: How To Know If Your Husband Has AN Addiction
Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Naomi. Welcome, Naomi.
Naomi: thank you.
Grooming and The Early Signs of aN Addiction
Anne: Let’s start at the beginning of your story when you were dating.
Looking back. How would you describe it? Was there anything happening that would have helped you know if your husband has an addiction had you known then what you know now?
Naomi: I think it was a pretty typical grooming process. But I didn’t know how to tell if my husband was grooming me. He was just really kind. We were friends at first and then it progressed into more. He was very attentive and in contact almost hourly. I always got text messages, and he was always complimentary and kind. He swept me off my feet.
Early signs of Abuse in marriage
Naomi: After we got married, he had these huge outbursts of anger, and said horrible things. I quickly learned that if I stayed in line with what he wanted, those did not occur as often.
And so I very quickly learned to anticipate what might cause angry outbursts. To avoid the name calling and the yelling and throwing things and stuff like that.
Anne: Which is the purpose of abuse: to coerce someone to do what you want, rather than a healthy way of interacting, being honest and asking them nicely and giving them the ability to choose for themselves. Often when you know your husband has a addiction, they’ll use coercion in really subtle, even kind ways to stop you from talking about it. This is one thing that can help you deal with an addict husband.
When did you discover your husband’s addiction? from talking about it.
Discovering the truth, how to know if your husband has an Addiction
Naomi: About three years into our marriage, I discovered he was involved with a woman. At that point, I was willing to take most of the blame. I had said, obviously I’m not meeting your needs. We need to go see a counselor. We need to talk to the bishop. Let’s work this out. And so he acknowledged he was using pornography. I am pretty smart and I’m quick with computers.
I checked up on him a lot. He’s also very smart and very, very good with computers, and so he quickly learned how to avoid getting caught. So we kind of played this game for a while, where I would check up on him a lot, but eventually I couldn’t catch him anymore because he figured out all the ways that I was checking up on him and he found ways around them.
the patterns to know if your husband has an addiction
Naomi: And then about four years later, I discovered he was involved with a girl at work, and there were other women in between, so we separated. I was staying with my parents. The two bishops I worked with really wanted me to work it out with him.
I didn’t know what else to do, and he was good at convincing me that he was going to change things, and that things were going to get better. So I stayed, and then I caught him involved with a girl again. She was staying in his hotel.
And so at that point, I said, we need a separation. That’s the point when someone brought up my husband’s addiction for the very first time.
When a therapist doesn’t know if your husband has an addiction
Anne: So was this from a therapist? They didn’t help you identify the abuse, but they said your husband has an addiction?
Naomi: So we had been to therapists, we went to therapists the whole time, through 11 years.
But I didn’t realize he was abusing me, and I didn’t think my husband has an addiction either. They never said the word addiction. It was just a pornography problem. Something that he needed to address. At that point, I discovered a lot more about sex addiction. Gaslighting, table turning, grooming.
Naomi: One of the first ones that comes to my mind is when I sensed something was wrong. I always felt like something was wrong, but every once in a while I would just feel it strongly.
And so I’d be like, is everything okay? Is there something going on maybe that you need to tell me about? He would say, you know, eventually you’re going to figure out that that’s just your paranoia or he would question everything I said. Because he is genuinely a very, very intelligent person.
It would leave me feeling like maybe I was crazy. Maybe it was me. He would turn things around, and he would say other people could see it, as well.
Separation
Naomi: We separated, and he still claimed it was going to get better. But when I set boundaries, he decided I was holding him back, and he left.
He did not file for a divorce, but he asked me to do it.
I didn’t want a divorce, but I did what he wanted.
How to know if your husband is recovering from a sex addiction
Naomi: It was good for me to let go and say, this isn’t my problem anymore. But I didn’t want to at the time, and I was devastated.
I didn’t recognize gaslighting as abuse. It took me until after the divorce to recognize that there was abuse, that there was anything other than pornography use.
I read one of the articles you had put out there, and it was talking about ways to recognize whether someone was actually working addiction recovery. I started recognizing a bunch of things that were still going on in my interactions with him after the divorce. Before that, I had had therapists advise me to read a book.
As I read the book, I thought, you know, this doesn’t really seem like me. And then, after reading your article, I read it again and I was like, holy cow, this is exactly me.
He would attack me, but at the end of his attacks, when I was upset, he’d say things like, “You just hate that someone else thinks differently than you, and you can’t control what they think.”
And I would believe him, because I was feeling upset by that point. And so I was like, yeah, I feel upset about what he’s thinking. I didn’t recognize that his attack was actually the cause of what I was feeling.
But there were times when I had great clarity, and I realized that I didn’t deserve to feel guilty. And then I started listening to different things, like your betrayal trauma podcasts. And I started recognizing slowly that he wasn’t very nice, and I started recognizing my feelings and emotions.
The emotional toll when you know if your husband has an addiction
I buried my emotions deep so that I could just get through each day. But they started coming out, you know, as I’d remember things and think about things that would be different. I noticed I was happy, and I hadn’t felt that in a while. It was because I got away from his abuse and had confidence in myself.
I didn’t feel like I constantly had to please someone else, or there were going to be huge repercussions. My relationship with my children became even better, and it was pretty good. They were struggling, and as we worked through it together, finding ways to talk about things that were hurting them inside. I gained confidence in my mothering skills and everything around me, where I hadn’t even realized I hadn’t had confidence before.
While listening to betrayal trauma podcasts, I started to recognize just more and more and thought, Oh my goodness, this was way worse. I think when you’re in the situation at the time, you can’t think about how horrible it is, because that would be too hard to handle the situation itself and recognize how bad it is.
Final Reflections on how to know if your husband has an addiction
Naomi: For a lot of people, it comes after.
Anne: Yeah, I experienced the most trauma after he left the home. And I realized how bad it was. Yeah, it’s shocking.
Naomi: And it was your podcast.
It was the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast that really helped me recognize. A lot of times I think for the professionals, it’s hard to say abuse. It’s hard to say those words and it’s hard to talk about abuse like grooming, gaslighting, things like that. But it’s really important for the survivor of abuse to hear those words and to understand what really happened to them.
And once they do hear those words. It’s life saving, because it helps you recognize why you had the reactions that you did, that it was really that bad. And that’s why you’re feeling the way that you’re feeling. It was really important.
Anne: Naomi. Thank you so much for sharing how discovering your husband’s addiction helped you realize that he was abusive to you emotionally, psychologically, and even sexually. Your story will help other women struggling to know if their husband has an addiction. Thank you for sharing it.
How To Deal with Angry Husband: 10 Things to Know
Jun 14, 2022
If you’re searching how to deal with angry husband, it’s probably because you’ve already tried everything—being understanding, being patient, being quieter, being “better,” being the emotional shock-absorber for the whole house.
And yet… nothing changes.
Before you take another step, here’s the most important truth you need to hear:
Your safety—emotional, physical, spiritual—is the priority. Everything else is secondary. His “anger issue” is not yours to decode.
So many women spend years trying to figure out why their husband is angry:
Men who don’t want to be angry, aren’t. Men who use anger to control the people around them use anger as a tactic.
Can He Control His Anger? Watch What He Does in Public
One of the clearest signs something deeper is happening is this: He has no trouble keeping it together in public. Around friends, coworkers, church members, your kids’ teachers… he’s calm, charming, composed.
But at home? He unleashes.
If you’re living this split reality, there’s definately something deeper going on. You’re not imagining it.
I Used to Think My Husband Had an Anger Problem
How to deal with angry husband? I thought my husband needed anger management. He even took multiple courses, including anger boot camp. Nothing changed. Because he didn’t have an anger problem. His problem was something else entirely.
How to Deal With Angry Husband: 10 Questions That Reveal the Truth
If you’ve been wondering how to deal with angry husband, start here. These 10 questions help clarify whether his anger is situational… or something that’s eroding your sense of safety.
If you answer yes to any of these, it’s worth paying closer attention to the pattern—not the excuse.
Do you often feel hurt, ashamed, or embarrassed after his anger?
Are you afraid to upset him because you fear he’ll leave you or punish you emotionally?
Have you spent time searching for clues about why he’s angry—as if there’s a hidden code to crack?
Has he made subtle or direct threats? (Example: “Touch is my love language… I get depressed when you pull away.” Translation: Give me sex or pay for it later.)
Do you find yourself trying to predict his moods and make things perfect for him anticipating his anger?
Have you tried describing how angry he gets to other people, but they don’t seem to understand?
Do you feel confused about what’s true versus what he claims when he’s angry?
Have you ever used sex to smooth things over or prevent him from becoming angry?
Do you feel emotionally abandoned because of his anger?
Do you feel like sometimes you caused his anger?
If any of these hit close to home, it’s important to know your husband’s anger has nothing to do with you, other than the fact that he’s using it to control you.
So actually… How to Deal With Angry Husband?
Well, it’s sort of a trick question.
Women in our community start feeling clearer when they shift from:
❌ “How do I help him?” to ✔️ “How do I help myself and my kids be safe, emotionally and physically?”
For deeper clarity, my Living Free Workshop walks you step-by-step through understanding what’s really going on, without pressure for you to do anything, without therapy jargon, and without being told to “just work on the marriage.”
You’re not asking for too much. You deserve emotional safety and peace.
Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. I have Janice and Cameron on the podcast today. They’re gonna share a part of their story about how to deal with angry husband.
Janice, why don’t you go ahead and let’s start with your story.
Janice: Thank you, Anne. I appreciate it. I was a victim of domestic abuse, but I didn’t recognize it. All of those years, while in that marriage, we would reach out to counselors, pastors.
Usually we’d go to a pastor first and they would treat it like a marital problem. And most of the time, the attempts to get help made things worse. It really just boggled my mind that everywhere I turned to get help, whether it be the courts, law enforcement, counselors, nobody knew how to deal with our situation.
I came through a church where the pastor didn’t know what to do. He thought that I should just get out of the marriage. And when he told me that, I thought, well, this man doesn’t know Jesus. I went to a church that believed more like I did, and they told me, well, you need to submit as long as he’s not asking you to sin.
And the more I submitted or obeyed or bowed down to him, the more things would get worse.
Submission was taught Like obedience
Anne: Yeah, I went through a similar experience. I felt like I was like facing this problem head on. I just don’t know exactly what the problem is. And everyone I went to for help didn’t tell me what it was. And so I did everything right. But the people supposed to help me did not help.
You mentioned your pastor said, “You should consider divorce,” And you thought to yourself, this man doesn’t know Jesus. I actually hear that a lot. Women hear my podcast and they think I’m like pro-divorce or maybe not Christian or something. When I very, very much am. And I think Jesus doesn’t want women abused.
Janice: Absolutely. I had actually grown up in a pretty liberal church, and then after marriage I moved to one with strict teaching on men’s and women’s roles. Submission was taught like obedience. And then of course all the years I became a homeschool mom, listening to things like Focus on the Family. Where they talk about how your children will be better off if you stay married, that a divorce is so painful and hurtful to children, and my own parents had divorced.
So I really did not believe in divorce. And it got to the point that my daughter, who was 12 years old at the time, said, Mom, why don’t you just get out? And I said, God hates divorce. I kept asking myself, what does God say about divorce and marriage? But I had about a million things in my head that I had come to believe, put there by my husband. He would say things like, You need to submit. I’m the head of this house. He would use scripture to keep me under control.
Interpreting abuse as only physical
Anne: How did you realize that submitting to abuse or evil wasn’t what Jesus wanted?
Janice: I don’t even know if I came to that recognition until after I got out.
My ex was a physician, so we worked with a psychologist one-on-one for a week. I had been telling myself, this is not abuse. He doesn’t mean it. He just flips out and he really can’t control it. It’s like a little nervous breakdown, but I realized he used everything against me, and that is not physical violence. Before that, I interpreted abuse as only physical, and I had had some incidents, but they were few and far between. We could go years with no physical abuse, but then when they did happen, I would get shoved or blocked in a room.
it did build up and was worse there towards the end than in the beginning.
Anne: Me too. I think I only had maybe three like episodes where he actually touched me, and he didn’t really even harm me except for the last time when he got arrested, he sprained my fingers. But for me, the emotional and psychological abuse was way worse.
And that’s what took me forever to wrap my head around. And that’s what’s hard is that if we don’t recognize what’s happening and we go to get help from like a therapist or the church. They don’t recognize it, so they’re not gonna help us.
Janice: Their church is not understanding, just like victims. We don’t understand the dynamic, so how can we expect them to understand?
How to deal with angry husband: Quoting scripture and praying doesn’t make someone righteous
Anne: Yeah. Church is especially problematic when it comes to abusers because they go to church and they read their scriptures and they pray and they know how to act like a God-fearing man, you know? And so you can’t wrap your head around that. They’re intentionally lying and manipulating you, and neither can the people at church, but just because they can quote scripture and pray and they sound righteous.
If they are lying, if they’re using inappropriate media, if they’re having affairs, if they’re screaming at their family all the time, if they’re like throwing their weight around because they’re selfish. ‘Cause they don’t wanna have to cook dinner, they don’t want a dirty toilet. They’re not righteous, no matter how many scriptures they can quote. They should be studying scriptures on betrayal.
Janice: Yeah, and they know that. Jesus talked about wolves among sheep, right? So I think that they know that and they will actually use the church for their own gain. I mean, Paul talks about it in his epistles.
Anne: You and I both have physical abuse as part of our story, and with mine it was extremely minimal. I’m not trying to minimize his abuse.
I’m just saying like one time he pushed me into the bed, but it didn’t hurt me. It was just scary. And then there was all the punching walls and physical intimidation, which is also physical abuse. I just didn’t see it as that at the time, I could tell that he was getting really mad because he wanted me to back off and I wouldn’t back off.
Emotional abuse is dangerous, how to deal with angry husband?
Anne: I would just keep going and I thought like maybe he’ll punch me and then at least I’d have a bruise. I know a lot of women who think that, ‘ cause without the physical violence, you’re still being severely abused. It’s just so much harder to figure out. How to deal with angry husband?
Janice: I would much rather he hit me. To me, the emotional abuse can be so much worse than physical, depending on the type of physical abuse.
Anne: Well, yeah, ’cause it’s really clear if someone punches you in the face. But the manipulation and the gaslighting, like impossible to figure out sometimes. And that’s not our fault. It’s his fault. ‘Cause he is like literally hiding stuff.
Also, there are many stories, and I’ve talked about them on the podcast like Susan Powell and Leah Moses, Michael Haight, and the dentist from Colorado. I’ve done episodes about the warning signs your husband might kill you. They were not physically abusive and then they killed their family members suddenly. It’s not like they had a history of physical abuse before they committed murder, but they did have a history of emotional and psychological abuse.
Janice: Yes, that’s the thing . I’ve got a friend whose husband was just emotionally abusive, just emotionally abusive for years. She left and went to her parents’ house, so he stormed in and killed her parents and left her for dead.
Anne: That is awful. I am so sorry. I am so sorry. Oh yeah. I mean, that’s the worst case scenario. And not making light of that at all, but like it’s also the worst case scenario to be continually emotionally and psychologically abused.
If you obey the commandments you should be blessed
Anne: There’s no silver lining to abuse, and that’s why it’s so traumatizing. It’s traumatizing, just that the person you trusted with your life betrayed you. How to deal with angry husband?
Janice: Abuse in and of itself is a huge betrayal of the bond that we are supposed to have. It is our most intimate relationship, and so there’s nothing like that.
It’s such a deep wound. One day I’m saying, Lord, nobody knows what’s this feels like. Nobody understands what I’m going through right now. And it felt like the Holy Spirit dropped all over me and I could feel Jesus saying, I know. I know what it’s like to be betrayed by somebody I love. I know what it’s like to have somebody that I trusted turn on me.
He was betrayed. So we have a God who understands when we are experiencing betrayal trauma. People, they don’t appreciate us. They see us more as objects and possessions than partners, and so it’s just a really difficult thing to deal with.
I still had a lot of faith, but I also really questioned God’s goodness. If he’s good, why is he allowing this to happen to me?
Anne: Yeah, especially if you followed the council of your church and you were doing what you thought Jesus wanted you to do. If you obey the commandments, you’re supposed to be blessed.
It’s really hard to feel any blessings when there’s an abusive man standing between you and the blessings that God wants to give you. In terms of the church, like Jesus said, that if you lust after a woman, you’ve committed adultery. And so here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we view pornography use as abusive.
how to deal with angry husband: Abusers have mindsets of entitlement
Anne: And I’m coming out with a book soon that talks all about that. In addition to all the other reasons why lying and betrayal is a domestic abuse issue, and a lot of people disagree with me, they don’t think that pornography use, or lying about pornography use, or an affair is emotional and psychological abuse.
But I’m like, you’re just not educated about emotional and psychological abuse, and I wasn’t either. So …
Janice: Definitely they go hand in hand. Because the heart behind domestic abuse is basically objectifying as possessions. And that is exactly what pornography does. It’s looking at women as objects. I mean, pornography changes and rewires the brain and the way that men can have intimacy with women .
Abusers have mindsets loaded with entitlement, pornography is also an entitlement issue. Like I can look at anything I want to any time. There are no rules for me when it comes to this department. It is definitely the same mindset that you see.
Anne: Yeah, which to me means that if you are in a relationship with an active pornography user, you are in a relationship with an abuser.
I say this all the time: Drug addicts abuse drugs. Alcoholics abuse alcohol. Sex addicts abuse people.
So people are the thing that they abuse. I’m just so frustrated with like therapists or clergy because they say the solution to addiction is connection and they’re asking a victim of abuse to support her abuser, and that is unethical on all sorts of levels. I also don’t think it’s doing the abuser any favors. Like I don’t think he’s actually gonna get help with that approach.
He’s choosing his behavior
Anne: It took us a long time to wrap our heads around the fact that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive.
What would you share with women who were in the situation that we were in at one point?
Janice: Well, you remember I talked about going into this program to learn how to deal with angry husband and I told the guy who was facilitating our week long intensive, I said, he just loses it. He can’t control his anger. He just flips out and he starts breaking things.
And he goes, well, wait a minute. So when he is breaking things, who stuff does he break? Does he break your stuff only or his stuff and everybody’s stuff. And I said, well, it’s mostly just my stuff. Then he says, does he flip out on people at work like that? And I said, no, not really. He said, well, then that tells me that he’s got control over this.
He’s choosing this behavior. A lot of times the truth is ugly. We have to admit that ugly truth before we can embrace beautiful truth. And the truth is that he uses kindness to manipulate. It’s not that he’s losing control at all. It’s that he’s using, whether it be anger or kindness, he’s using both to control. And that was a painful eye-opener to me. It was a very needed one for me to finally move towards healing.
Anne: Yeah, that was a big one for me too.
Well, Janice thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you sharing your story and your thoughts.
Janice: Well, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it.
Attributing his good traits to me
Anne: Cameron, go ahead.
Cameron: So I got married really young and I had no idea hes love bombing me. It felt flattering. He was saying all the sweet things, and he talked trash about every woman he dated before me, how disgusting or nasty his exes were. And part of me felt special.
Like, wow, he thinks I’m different. One morning over breakfast, he was like, I think I need a break. But like the night before he told me he wanted to marry me, I was devastated. And then a week later, he shows back up saying, I made a huge mistake. And the relief, I mean, I don’t, I don’t think there’s anything more intoxicating than the relief that follows emotional torture.
I took it as a sign that he was the one. He’d say things like, I stopped looking at inappropriate media because of you. I’m closer to my family because of you. I’m doing better in school because of you. He attributed all his good traits to me.
Anne: I’m so glad you brought that up, because then when he doesn’t do well in school or he starts looking at pornography again, then he blames you because you weren’t helping him be a better person anymore. How to deal with angry husband?
Cameron: Yeah, he was just setting me up to blame me for not doing that stuff later.
how to deal with angry husband: His Little abusive accidents?
Anne: Before you got on to interview, you were telling me about like the covert physical abuse. Like he would never punch you in the face, but he’d sort of like pretend like he couldn’t see you and step on your foot and stuff like that. Can you talk about that?
Cameron: The whole time there were these little accidents, opening a door when I was standing too close, so it hit me. Accidentally tripping me. I was like, wow. He’s super strong and big and he just didn’t see me there.
Anne: Yeah. It’s like a threat.
Cameron: Totally, his anger was always looming over me. I never knew when he was gonna lose it or how to deal with angry husband.
Anne: Yeah. I experienced that as well. My, um, ex punched a wall a couple times and then that hole in the wall, like it just sat there and every time I saw it I thought, wow, he’s capable of that.
Cameron: I totally know what you mean.
Anne: . Like he could destroy stuff, but he never destroyed anything that he cared about.
Cameron: He told me I just lost control, but he didn’t hit his beloved TV. And I’d think, okay, but if you really lost control, wouldn’t you have hit me? So clearly you have control.
Anne: If I lost it, is there excuse? That’s a serious threat. That’s like even worse because he could really hurt somebody if he loses control and punches stuff. I don’t think they realize that it actually makes them look worse if they say they lost it.
His anger is out of control
Cameron: I know he might like rip one of our pet’s heads off or something. Anyway, one 4th of July, we were driving to his brother’s lake house and he goes, my parents emotionally abused me. I need you with me at all times while we’re there. So I tried to stay near him, but of course there’s all the kids running around and I’d come and go and check in.
But at one point, one of the kids needed my help in the garage. He found me, got mad and punched a hole in his brother’s garage wall. I mean, crazy town. His brother’s all furious and I’m so embarrassed I’m like, it was my fault. I made him mad. His brother shrugged, like, whatever. My husband apologized and said he’d fix it.
Later my mother-in-law asked where he was and I said, he’s in the garage fixing the hole. And I remember thinking, why is no one asking? What the heck is wrong with him? And it wasn’t just them.
I reached out to our pastor, my family, I said, I mean, “Sure his pornography is a problem, but his anger is out of control.” And everybody was like, be a better wife, have more sex, be patient, use I statements, read The Power of a Praying Wife, avoid the four horsemen of the apocalypse.
Anne: I also tried to avoid the four horsemen of the apocalypse, like trying not to stonewall, trying not to criticize what he is doing, you’re supposed to tell him your feelings, but you can’t tell him your feelings. So like if you say something, you’re crazy and then if you don’t say something, you’re crazy. How to deal with angry husband?
A whole unfit mother campaign
Anne: Like if I go to therapy, there’s something wrong with me. If I don’t go to therapy, there’s something wrong with me. How to deal with angry husband?
Cameron: Yes, that! How can it not be overwhelming when they tell you, you have to be absolutely perfect so he can like be nice. And I did everything they told me. And because he was so charming in public, so helpful and humble and worship-team perfect. No one believed me.
He’s telling everyone I was lazy, dependent, a whole unfit mother campaign. Telling people I partied every weekend. Left him with the kids.
Anne: They told me, “You’re trying to ruin your family.” Did they use that one on you?
Cameron: I didn’t hear that one, but the one I heard over and over and over was, “She doesn’t realize how good she has it.”
Then there was the sexual coercion, which I had no idea what that was until I found BTR. If I wasn’t in the mood. Mostly because he’d yelled at me like 10 minutes before, he’d sulk, ignore me, punish me with silence. I realized he only loved me when I gave him exactly what he wanted, and I didn’t wanna poke the bear, didn’t want the sulking or the anger or any more holes in the wall.
And anytime I brought up help, he’d say, I’m gonna change. I’ll find a program next week. But the minute I was like, when? He’d explode. Then came the counselors. Ooh, the counselors one told him I was controlling. Another one said his needs weren’t met, that he should demand more from me. That same one told me my husband was just frustrated because of my anxiety.
How to deal with angry husband: He’s an addict because of low self-esteem
Cameron: Then my husband starts seeing this revered CSAT ’cause he now has a sex addiction. And that guy is like, he’s an addict because of his low self-esteem.
Anne: The sexual addiction thing is so problematic. It’s not that pornography isn’t addictive and it is not that he is not a pornography addict. But in relation to you, he’s emotionally abusive. How to deal with angry husband? His addiction isn’t your problem, his abuse is your problem. But when his addiction comes into the mix, people are like, oh, he’s willing to be vulnerable. He is willing to talk about his addiction. He is willing to go to a treatment program, so things are gonna get better.
After I’ve interviewed so many women, I found that is like rarely the case. Because she’s not experiencing his addiction. So as I’m listening to your story, I’m like bracing myself.
Cameron: I know, right? So my husband comes home like, this isn’t about you. It’s about me loving myself. And I’m sitting there thinking, okay, so you’re gonna go on a three hour beach run every day while I raise our seven kids alone.
I thought his family would care, nope. Within days of me asking them for support, I became the villain. I was crazy. I had borderline personality disorder. They actually told me, we know he has a temper, but you married him. You knew, so that’s on you.
Anne: So wait. Their contention was that you consented to emotional abuse because you married him, because that’s not the thing.
Cameron: Right. Totally.
Focusing on emotional safety
Cameron: And during that week, I prayed harder than I’ve ever prayed in my life. Sat at my computer and I typed in everything I was feeling. And one of your podcasts popped up. That’s how I found BTR.
Anne: That’s amazing. How to deal with angry husband? I’ve heard that from so many women who were like praying and they sat down on their computer and they found BTR. I am so grateful that you found us. Our group sessions, and the workshop focus on your emotional safety only. That’s it.
Cameron: Yeah. It’s so different than any other type of therapy or program and it’s so much better. It actually makes sense. After I found you everything shifted. I started learning your strategies in the workshop and how to use boundaries that actually worked. Unlike that dumb CSAT that had me set the stupidest boundaries. From BTR, I learned that nothing he did was because he felt ashamed or had low self-esteem.
It was because he chose abuse. I started doing the meditations in your workshop. They helped a ton. I went to like six group sessions a week. I could finally think again. And I could feel my own feelings instead of the ones he assigned to me.
So grateful for btr
Cameron: I started to trust myself. Meanwhile, he’s losing weight, and everyone is suddenly so worried about him. Women coming up to me like, he looks so thin. Are you guys okay? Our kids are falling apart, and no one even asks them how they’re doing. And the church board completely bought into all his lies.
They were like, why won’t you let him come home? Can’t you talk to him differently? Don’t say things that make him mad. It was awful. Truly awful. I would’ve never made it through without the workshop and the BTR community, the coaches, the podcast, everything.
I don’t know what I would’ve done without BTR. I’m so grateful.
Anne: Yeah, that’s why I created BTR, because when I went through it, I couldn’t find help. I had the same experience that you did, like going to tons of therapists that couldn’t help. trying to find out how to deal with angry husband.
Thank you so much, Cameron, for sharing your story today.
Women Say THESE Are The Best Betrayal Trauma Resources
Jun 07, 2022
You deserve the best betrayal trauma resources as you navigate the deeply personal journey toward emotional safety.
Some resources can be more traumatizing than helpful. If you’re not sure you are emotionally safe after betrayal and you think you may have betrayal trauma, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
What Are The Best Betrayal Trauma Recovery Resources For Women?
The BTR.ORG Books Page – offering a curated selection of books about addiction and betrayal trauma. Most books can be found at your local library or purchased on Amazon.
Transcript: The Best Betrayal Trauma Resources For Women
Anne: My friend Lindsay and I were hanging out in my basement and talking about why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I wanted all the educational material: the podcast, the website, and the transcribed articles to be free. And I wanted women to get our professional betrayal trauma resources from anywhere.
And they needed to be accessible within hours of an abuse episode. You could either get into an individual session or a group session that you never had to call your therapist and get the sad news that they couldn’t see you for two weeks or that you had to be on some wait list. I just wanted to make sure that women had a safe place to go for the best support for betrayal trauma.
When I first started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I thought BTR would be to shorten the time span between trying to get help while in the abuse cycle. It was basically to shorten the time span to find out about their pornography, and immediately notice abuse. So women could figure out the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict. And immediately you can set boundaries, with their emotionally abusive husbands, right? That was like, okay, I’m gonna like make sure that no woman has to go through 10, 20 years of this again.
Well, what I have found is that most women have to go through that stage. And so for women who are like, oh, I’m so stupid. Why didn’t I see it before? Why didn’t I do that? Almost like you had to go through that. No woman goes straight from, I found explicit material on his phone to the hardcore boundary. Usually, I mean, maybe if you’re the miracle out there, email me and we will have you on the podcast.
The Importance Of Education
Anne: That would be awesome, then I realized, no, this podcast is to educate women. We’ll just speak our truth and wherever they are is okay.
Lindsay: Yeah, take you where you are.
Anne: Yeah, and we’ll grow together from whatever stage we’re in. And hopefully in the process, number one is safety, and number two is that post traumatic growth. That people talk about a lot. Being able to grow. And I feel like I’m finally getting to that stage. I mean, I’ve changed a lot and grown a lot, but I also now, I’m like, oh my word, I’m wearing makeup! There are so many things now that I’m working toward, and it’s so exciting. So many women come on the podcast and share their emotional abuse survivor stories, and it’s so inspiring.
Now, you’re at a really, really tough, messy stage.
Lindsay: Yes.
Anne: Right now, you are separating as a boundary for repeated lies and infidelity. You don’t know what the outcome of your boundary setting will be.
Lindsay: Absolutely.
Anne: Right, it’s I believe, your best chance for a happy future, and I also believe it’s your husband’s best chance to get healthy. But how are you feeling now in the context of your own personal growth?
We’ve All Been There
Lindsay: One thing that was truly powerful was just remembering. Not that I didn’t know this before, but remembering that this is painful and will be painful. If I am stabbed by a knife, I can’t control whether that hurts. It’s going to hurt. And so letting myself feel those emotions, in a real way. That’s awful. It’s awful to sit there and bawl and cry and have a pile of Kleenexes.
Anne: We’ve all been there. It’s the worst. You feel like all the liquid in your entire body has come out.
Lindsay: It’s awful. And none of it will be fun, and it’s not going to be easy. And I’m going to make mistakes. I mean, yes, I’m holding a boundary, but oh my word, I have no clue if this is the right thing, the right answer. And that’s okay. I don’t have to be perfect at this. And it’s okay for me to be messy, raw, and in pain, and that has been one thing.
Anne: For me, it’s been years of pain and unresolved things that I can’t fix. And they’re still here. I still can’t fix them. There’s one woman I talked to on the phone, and her situation was bleak. She had no support. Nobody understood what she was going through. She actually lived with her in laws. And they didn’t understand. So everything was bad.
I just prayed with her on the phone. Because I was like, you can get a coach, but still, your situation is so bad that you need help from God. And she believed in God, so that wasn’t a stretch for her. So we said a prayer, and she emailed me a little later and said, you know, I haven’t had any huge miracle happen, right. I told her there were so many times where I was screaming, yelling and jumping up and down.
And saying like, send help now. I need help now, I need something to change now. And nobody came and nothing happened, but things have happened slowly over time. Then I developed my business to have the best betrayal trauma resources. That has been cool to watch. And I can’t wait to see what’s going to happen 10 years from now.
Betrayal Trauma Resources For Newcomers
Anne: It makes it exciting knowing that it’s all working for my good. And having that faith that it will, even if I can’t see it.
Lindsay: Right, so I had a question for you. So, let’s say there is somebody out there, and they’re totally new. I mean, this is their first introduction to anything recovery.
Anne: This podcast right now?
Lindsay: Yes,
Anne: Okay.
Lindsay: What betrayal trauma resources are available? And if the resources available to them aren’t healthy. What can they look for in what they have available to make it still work for them?
https://youtube.com/shorts/Xz2bZTjFYcU
Anne: Yeah, you’re in the right place now. If this is your first time and this is the first thing, and you’re like, what resource? You are at it, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is the best betrayal trauma resource. I created it so I’m a little biased. And the reason I feel confident about saying that is because women have gone to lots of other places and then come back and said, well, that wasn’t safe for me. But let’s say a woman tries something and it’s not, right?
She goes to a COSA group, for example, or a different 12 Step Group, and it’s like, no, this doesn’t feel right. It just isn’t safe. So I would say that’s why I built Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Knowing that you’re looking for a place that sees it as a victim and perpetrator situation. So someone said to me the other day, how do you feel about the drama triangle? You know about the drama triangle, right, victim, perpetrator, and rescuer?
Lindsay: Yeah.
Choosing The Right Resources For Betrayal Trauma
Anne: In this context, there is no triangle.
Lindsay: Right.
Anne: Right? And the same thing when people say it takes two to tango, both sides of the story. There is one truth.
Lindsay: Right.
Anne: And for me, for nine months, I prayed every day to know what the truth of my situation was. And I was open to knowing exactly what that was. So that if it is me, I want to know.
Lindsay: Right.
Anne: And what I discovered was that you are in an abusive relationship. That was the truth of my situation. Being educated about what abuse looks like, what manipulation looks like, is important. For someone just starting out, I’d say, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
That one helps you determine what your husband’s true character is, and gives you safety strategies. It’s important to know what those are in the beginning. So that you can start practicing those while you observe to figure out what’s going on. Obviously listening to this podcast. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are incredible, because she can hop on at any time.
And then the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop.I wrote all the meditations in the workshop, and I used all of the strategies to help myself. And then other women tested them. And so they are like proven strategies and meditations that work.
I’m like, now? And you’re like, it’s okay if you get around to it, like, in a week.
Lindsay: It’s their journey, right?
Anne: I know. It’s your journey. And so with inexpensive books to read, our books page is a compilation of all those books.
Books Available
Anne: And most of them you can get at your local library free.
Lindsay: Yeah, even on audio book.
Anne: Yes!
Lindsay: Which is awesome.
Anne: And guess which of the betrayal trauma resources are free? This podcast! I was just recently reading, I hadn’t done it before, the ratings on iTunes. I was like, oh, they’re so nice. They said like, listening to your podcast has done more for me than 10 years of therapy. Stuff like that. And I was like, really? I’m so glad that’s the whole point of it. Healing from abuse is long-term, emotionally, physically, and financially expensive endeavor.
Lindsay: It is.
Anne: It is worth it, though.
So whatever resource you choose, even if it’s just reading books, even if the only thing you do is go in your closet and pray. And that’s your “recovery plan.” It will be worth it. Something that concerns me regarding 12 Step Groups as a resource for betrayal trauma. Is the way some women are made to feel responsible for their husband’s choices. Or the healthiness of the marriage, even though they are not and have not been the abusive one.
Here’s an example. When I went, women said, when I started coming here, that’s what made the difference to my husband.
Lindsay: Right.
Anne: And I just was like, stop saying that. The other thing I thought was interesting is that in that stage they thought their husband was doing well. I’m not saying one particular person, but I’ve seen this happen many times.
And then later they find out that he wasn’t even in a good stage, and they thought he was.
Understanding & The Shortage Of Safe Betrayal Trauma Help
Anne: So that’s another thing that’s difficult about this journey. Is that understanding what a safe person looks like takes a lot of time.
Lindsay: So much time. I mean, even for me, I’m still developing my understanding of what that looks like. I gather all the resources I can.
Anne: Lindsay is a very intense researcher.
Lindsay: Yes, I am.
Anne: I would say, very organized.
Lindsay: I’m working on letting that go. It is still a work in progress.
Anne: Well, I’m grateful that you felt safe enough here. Number one, just with me as my friend, that means a lot to me. But also to share your story here to help women know where to find the best betrayal trauma resources. And again, any route is fine. Anything that works is great, because there are so many women in this situation. There’s no shortage of victims. Unfortunately, there is a shortage of resources.
Lindsay: Yeah.
What Is Exploitative? Dr. Gail Dines Exposes the Shocking Truth About THIS Industry
May 31, 2022
What is exploitative? A global industry that uses coercion and abuse to make money. Understanding how exploitative media harms women’s rights will help you understand what exploitative really means.
Did you know that wives of men who exploit women are likely to be emotionally abused? To discover if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
What is Exploitative? Violence Against Women
Understanding that exploitative media often depicts graphic violence against women highlights the reality that this is a human rights issue. There is a clear connection between exploitative media and violence toward women.
Victims of the exploitative media and trafficking industry are women targeted and oppressed by perpetrators benefiting from systemic privileges. Women everywhere can unite to stand with our sisters who have been harmed by this insidious industry by recognizing exploitative media for what it truly is: a human rights issue.
Transcript: What Is Exploitative?
Anne: I’m so excited to have one of my absolute heroes on today’s episode. Her name is Dr. Gail Dines. Dr. Dines is a Professor Emerita of Sociology at Wheelock College. She has been researching and writing about this exploitative industry for over 25 years.
Dr. Dines is the founding president and CEO of the non-profit Culture ReFramed, dedicated to building resilience and resistance in children and youth to the harms of exploitation. Culture ReFramed develops cutting edge educational programs that promote healthy development, relationships, and intimacy. Dr. Dines has been described as one of the leading anti-exploitation scholars and activists in the world.
Anne: Welcome Gail.
Dr. Dines: Pleasure to be here.
Anne: I’m like starstruck right now. I’m so excited to have you on and grateful for the work you do. So let’s just jump right into this. Gail, why is exploitative media a feminist issue? And why is it a human rights issue?
Dr. Dines: It was the feminist movement, especially the radical feminist movement, who first began to understand that we need to see exploitative media as a harms issue. This hurting real women human trafficking survivors. And it had real world consequences on both men and women in the industry and outside the industry. It really grew out of the radical feminist anti-violence movement, where we began to see the relationship between exploitative media and violence against women.
The Challenges Of Embracing Feminism
Anne: Some women are still uncomfortable with the word feminist. I’m trying to get everyone to be extremely comfortable with it, and to sit in it and realize that it’s a beautiful, wonderful thing. Do you have any advice for women uncomfortable with the notion of a feminist?
Dr. Dines: Well, I would say for many women it can actually be scary to call yourself a feminist. Because you open yourself up to all sorts of criticism, ridicule, and caricaturing. In this society, to be a feminist is to fight back against male power.
And whenever you resist being oppressed, the oppressor class comes after you. So I understand why some women are nervous and anxious about that. But if you want a full life, if you want to feel like you have power in the world. And sisterhood and the capacity to change the world, then the answer for women is to be a feminist and proud one at that. Hold your head up high. And wear that term with pride.
Anne: I agree, I’ve taught my little four year old daughter to say, I’m a feminist, definitely. And also my six year old and my nine year old son. And it kind of makes me a little teary to think about when they say it. It’s so cute and I’m so proud of them. Why do some feminists or some women who call themselves feminists support exploitative media?
Dr. Dines: I used to teach a whole 14 week course on this, so let me try and get it into a couple of minutes.
The Third Wave of Feminism & Exploitative Media
Dr. Dines: So, when you think about this feminism that grew out of the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. It was a given that if you called yourself a feminist, you were anti-exploitative media. There was no question. And then what happened around the 90s is that there was a sort of new movement, which we often sometimes call the third wave.
Where what we call feminism lite or faux feminism was the idea that somehow, if you embraced exploitative media. Because the argument was that we’re never going to get rid of it. So let’s embrace it and use it in ways that empower us. I would argue it was really a capitulation to male power and the industry. And what’s happened is over the years, this view that somehow exploitative media can be empowering has taken hold, especially in academic circles.
I think I need to say this, that the more privileged a woman is, and the further away she is from ever having to be in exploitative media to put food on the table for her kids. The easier it is to endorse it as empowering. It’s a privileged white position to say it, and I have to add in here, prostitution.
Many of the same women who are pro-exploiation argue they’re pro-prostitution. It’s a privileged white position, because most of those women who have that argument are women of color. They are so far away from ever having to be in it or in prostitution.
The first rule of feminism is to do no harm to women, and exploitative media is one of the most harmful forms of visual representation that we have. It delivers to men’s brains via the penis, a clear image of misogyny.
Anne: Absolutely.
It’s A Human Rights Issue: If You Are In It, You Lose Rights
Anne: Why do you think they don’t realize they’re hurting other women?
Dr. Dines: I think many students would come in with kind of pro-exploitation views. But it didn’t take long to get them to see the violence in it, and the impact on women in it.
Women who date men who watch it and got their information about intimacy from it. When you think about it, who wants to be penetrated on camera by many men in violent, brutal, and ways where you lose rights to your image, bodily integrity, and bodily privacy?
You know, so I asked my students, think about what it would be like if you had to do this to survive financially. And often I think what happens is we can theorize and theorize, but there’s something to be said for just plain, simple empathy. Put yourself in that position and say, would I want that for me? Would I want it for my friends? Would I want it for my daughter, my sister, my mother? And the answer is no.
Anne: Yeah, absolutely. The men who support this stance simply lack empathy. Do you see it’s easier to persuade women to this stance than men?
Dr. Dines: Yes, because when women look at exploitative media, they identify with the woman. So yes, in that way, you’re getting a visceral bodily reaction to what’s happening to her.
Mainstream Exploitative Media Today
Dr. Dines: But I have to say that when I give lectures to high schoolers, middle schoolers and university students. Many of them are young men, all of whom have seen mainstream exploitative media. Which we have to say clearly, mainstream online today is hardcore. That’s the only kind you get when you put it into Google, or through Instagram, Snapchat, or YouTube.
This is what it is today. Mainstream is what, pre-internet, was considered hardcore. It was hard to find in shops. You had to know somebody who had that kind. Today, it’s free and accessible. It’s anonymous, and it’s five seconds away. So the shift from 2000 when the internet became domesticated to today is absolutely remarkable. And what happens is interesting.
So I’ll go into say a college campus, and when I’m speaking, often there are hundreds of students.
This starts with these male students, who you can feel their hostility towards me. It’s actually coming off them in waves. And they’re thinking, what the hell does this woman, this middle aged woman, know about it? I’m standing on a stage, so I’m watching their body language. And as I start to talk, it is amazing to see the changes. Suddenly, they begin to relax.
Young Men Are Dragged Into The Mess
Dr. Dines: They begin to reach out, and I have to say if they could reach out and touch me, they would. Why? Because I think many of these young men have been dragged into it. It is like a spider’s web to catch young men through algorithms and all sorts of ways of dragging them into it. They see images that they themselves probably would not want.
I do not believe that when a 12 year old puts a body part into Google, thinks he’s going to see a world of brutality, violence, and torture. He’s probably thinking he’s going to see maybe breasts, maybe a vagina. He’s not prepared for what he’s going to get catapulted into. And I would argue that the industry is traumatizing a generation of boys.
And many of these boys who grow up into young men, who I’m meeting colleges, feel deep shame about what they’re watching. They want to stop watching it. Some of them are habitual or addictive users. And they are so grateful that someone has come in and said, is this who you want to be? A guy who gets aroused to images of violence against women? And for many of them, the answer is no, they don’t want that.
They’ve just been pulled into this trap that this predatory industry has laid for them. To suggest boys or men are on the hunt for violent misogyny. As a somehow biological imperative of masculinity, it is to lower the bar about men. And it’s to say boys want violence. Maybe there’s maybe a hiccup in masculinity that they want violence. I would argue that’s anti-male because I truly believe men do not want this, or boys certainly don’t want this.
Exploitative Media Harms Women In Every Way
Dr. Dines: I believe men and boys are born equal to women, with all the capacity for humanity and empathy. And I believe that as a sociologist, feminist, and most profoundly as the mother of a son. My son was not born violent or with a desire for violence. This culture certainly wanted to turn him into that, but I know he was born with all the capacity for love, empathy, and connection that women are.
And if my son was born that way, then your son was born that way. So we need to think as feminists, as men’s best friends, the ones who say to men, we have faith in your humanity. We will fight for that humanity, because the industry is about destroying it.
First of all, I think there is a moral issue, and this is not from a religious position. This is more from a feminist position, it is a moral issue, because it harms women physically, emotionally, and in every way. So I don’t think we need to say it’s not moral, but what we also need to add is that it’s a civil rights issue, because it undermines the civil rights of women. You cannot have a society based on equality if you have this exploitative industry.
This industry we’ve got today teaches men that women are a subhuman category. That women exist to be used and abused, women are just objects to be discarded when you’re done with them. And the civil rights of women cannot be fully achieved when men are trained to think of women as subhuman.
The Civil Rights Impact Of Exploitative Media
Anne: And we see that with our community. Our community is all wives of users who have been abused by their husbands. They are being harmed significantly because of their husband’s abusive views. Many don’t understand what marital coercion is. I like to think that these men were born as empathetic, good people, and that they have become unable to empathize through their excessive exploitative media use. And because of that, their behavior becomes abusive and scary. It’s hurting families and women.
Dr. Dines: Oh, absolutely. Studies show that women who are partnered with men who are users feel greater betrayal than if their husband had an affair. So the level of pain, humiliation and shame that women feel when they find out their husband is an addict is profound, and nobody’s speaking about it.
Anne: Yeah, I guess, except me, right. What we’ve found is the trauma isn’t just from finding out about their husband’s cheating and use. The trauma is from all the abuse, the emotional and psychological abuse they’ve suffered for years. And women are often blamed for the emotional abuse. It’s mind blowing.
Dr. Dines: Toxic secrets, what’s interesting is that I meet many, many women wherever I go. I can have my hair blown out, sitting on a train, or interviewed, and many women I speak to tell me about their partners and what it feels like. And that now, once they realize what’s going on, they look back, and we always say, hindsight’s 20 20. They saw cues, but didn’t join the dots.
Recognizing The Signs Of Addiction
Dr. Dines: And I would say, first of all, there are many cues to look for. The first thing I would argue is that when you’re living with somebody in a relationship. There should be no password protected devices that you don’t have access to. That’s a big clue. If you cannot get on to your partner’s cell phone, computer or laptop, and don’t know the password, that’s a red flag. Also, if suddenly his interest starts to wane or he’s asking you to do stuff he’s never asked you to do before.
Many women say I began to see a difference in him. He acted, felt, and spoke differently. So looking back, they realized there were clues, but of course they didn’t pick up on that. It didn’t occur to them. They were unaware of how big a public health crisis this is. Of course, then comes the enormous pain. This man you’ve lived with, loved and probably had children with, has this awful, subtextual life. That you did not know about, but it’s poisoning your own life, relationship, and family.
Anne: Yeah, and that’s why we here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery actually see it as a consent issue with wives of users. They are unaware of what is going on, so they can’t give their consent in that situation. Because they’re being lied to in their most intimate relationship. So it is an abuse issue, an emotional abuse issue and a consent issue. We’re trying to help people understand that, so they can view its use with the lens of severity that it deserves.
Dr. Dines: Yeah, I don’t think any woman should consent to her husband or partner using it.
A Consent Issue In Relationships
Dr. Dines: And you know what was interesting is that many women I speak to say, well, you know, we watch it together. We don’t watch the violent stuff. And I say, well, that’s what he watches with you, but he watches completely different stuff when you’re not there. So I would say, first of all, even if you watch it together and think that’s a way to ensure there’s no secrets, there’s a ton of secrets behind that.
Because when you leave that house, or when you’re not there, what he’s watching is different to what you’re watching together. And, even if it’s not hardcore, still, the question becomes, why does he need to watch it? Right?
Anne: Yeah, absolutely, when I say consent issue, I don’t mean it in that context. The context in which I mean it is that you expect the relationship to be free of it. He’s using it, and he’s not telling you about it. There’s the consent issue. If he said to you, I will use exploitative media, whether you like it or not. Even though you say I don’t want this in my relationship, I’m going to disregard it. I will do it anyway. secretly behind your back. Then she could give her consent to be in the relationship, right?
She would say, Hmm, I don’t want to be with a man like you. No, thank you. But when they lie to her face and say, I’m not using it. No, I would never do that, and they are, that’s what I’m talking about. That’s a consent issue. Men don’t realize that when they lie to a woman about it, they are not obtaining her consent.
Dr. Dines: They’re betraying everything.
Lies & Gaslighting By The Industry
Anne: So that’s the context in which I brought that consent issue up. Let’s talk about the lies that the industry tells people to gaslight them. Can you talk about what types of lies they are using to manipulate and gaslight people into viewing it?
Dr. Dines: Oh, well, they have a multi-billion dollar well oiled PR machine to perfect these lies. First of all, they argue it’s harmless. No one’s getting hurt. It’s a victimless crime. It has no effect. Lighten up. If you don’t like it, it’s your problem. This is the discourse that the industry has sold to women and men. But specifically to women. If you don’t like it, then there’s something wrong with you.
I mean, there’s even male sexologists who write for Psychology Today, and different outlets who say if your husband or partner is using it and you don’t like it. You have to ask yourself, what’s wrong with you? What’s your problem? That is utter gaslighting of women. As if it’s your problem, that you don’t want your husband masturbating to images of violence against women, and you’re the one with the problem?
It’s insane. But the whole culture is pro-exploitation now. For Teen Vogue, and why they called it sex work, I would not call it that, I’d call it prostitution, is a choice for women. That’s coming from the teen magazines, and then you’ve got films, shows on TV.
The Profit-Driven Nature Of Exploitative Media
Dr. Dines: Everywhere you go. You’ve got this consistent message that it’s part of being hip, being woke, and being cool. That you, you prude you, you’re the one who’s got to figure out why you’re not, and they say anti-sex. In fact, I can’t think of any group that’s more anti than the producers of it. They hate it, they’re not into it, they’re into profits.
I went to the exploitation convention in Las Vegas, and when you go to their workshops, we got passes to get into the workshops, and no one’s talking about it. Everyone’s talking about money. I went to one, like, unbelievably boring session about what’s best, bulk emailing versus targeted emailing. It was as if they were selling toothpaste.
And this was interesting. It was downstairs, there are two floors. That is where they have their meetings and talks about selling exploitative media like any other business, and upstairs were the fans. So I went upstairs and downstairs, and interviewed both groups. The fans kept saying to me, it’s fun, it’s just lighthearted. And I wanted to say to them, you know what? Come downstairs with me and sit in these seminars, because no one’s having any fun.
They’re all thinking about ways to get as much money out of you as possible. This is not about fun. This is about profit. And if you took the profit out of the industry, it would collapse tomorrow. No one’s doing this because they love intimacy. No one’s doing this because they want us to have a fun life. They’re doing this to maximize profits.
The Dehumanizing Effects of Exploitative Media
Dr. Dines: And the result of their maximizing profits is a bankruptcy of emotion, connection, intimacy, and of what it means to be human.
Anne: I love how you say that. It is so degrading to humanity in general. So let’s talk about what you said. We know that people who are opposed to exploitation are not sex negative. What word would you use rather than positive? Because today, if you say I’m positive, people think you would like exploitation, and hookups are good. Describe what that means, and how that may help or hurt people.
Dr. Dines: Well, the term has been co-opted by the pro-exploitation crowd. I think it’s a real problem, because those who are against exploitation are, by definition, negative. What I always say is I am pro, and that’s why I’m anti-exploitation. You can’t be pro-pornography and pro-intimacy. You have to pick one, and I’ve picked being pro-intimacy. And when I say pro-sex, I am pro healthy, creative, fun intimacy that you are the author of.
Not a where a group of creepy men who are out to maximize profits decide what is the best act to degrade and debase a woman to maximize profits. We’ve got to think about it as an industry. Like all industries, it will do whatever it takes to maximize their profit. If it takes completely destroying a woman’s body, which they do all the time. If it takes giving her, I don’t know how many STDs.
Because we know from studies that women get gonorrhea of the eye, chlamydia of the anus, all things you don’t normally hear. If you think about what it does to women’s bodies, then how can you possibly call it positive?
Healthy Intimacy Vs. Exploitative Abuse
Dr. Dines: So what we want to talk about is what does it mean to be the author of your own sexuality? What does it mean to have fun experimentation and creativity? And that is none of my business. What is of interest to people in what as long as it’s not hurting anyone, consensual, and doesn’t involve violence. Then people should develop any they want.
Often when I go into lecture. People say to me, well, if we don’t use it, what should we do? And I say, well, look, if I was coming here to speak against the fast food industry, you wouldn’t say to me, what can I eat? And I wouldn’t give you recipes, because I don’t know what you want to eat. You figure out what you like to eat.
Figure out what flavors you like. Figure out what you want to cook. You go and experiment, but don’t ask me to tell you what to eat. Same thing with intimacy. I don’t know what’s going to interest you, but again, as long as it’s consensual, non-violent, and based on an egalitarian intimacy, go and have fun.
Anne: Yeah, I love you, thank you. I hope that women listening can gain more confidence in knowing that so many people in the world are behind you. Who support you and say exploitation is wrong. You do not have to put up with it in your relationship.
Dr. Dines: Yeah, I understand that women have been completely caught in this net, just as men have. But for women, it’s often worse, because you often have a family with this guy. You have a mortgage to pay. In a way, you’re trapped in this.
If Your Partner Doesn’t See This As A Problem, You Can’t Stay
Dr. Dines: So what I want to say to women is that you cannot live with a man who is a user. And also have a sense of bodily integrity, of loving your own body, and a sense of a healthy intimacy. The two just don’t go together. So you have to figure out how you’re going to deal with this. And one way, which is not always so great, is to figure out therapy with the guy. But often a lot of intimacy therapists make it worse, rather than better. Because they will be on his side.
If your partner is not willing or does not see this as a problem, then you cannot stay. You can’t do that to yourself. You cannot give up that part of yourself that says this is wrong. Because you will look back in 10, 15 years, 5 years, and you’ll look in the mirror one day and wonder, Who am I? What have I become? And what is my life? You don’t want to do that. And plus, if you have kids, you do not want your kids around this toxic life of a man using it in the home.
First of all, it puts them at risk. And secondly, you want your kids to be healthy. And if their father or whoever the man they’re living with uses it, ultimately, it will seep into their lives on every level about who they are. For girls, it will have a whole set of messages about what it means to be a girl. For boys, a whole different set of messages. And kids are very savvy. They pick up things that we think they don’t pick up on. They know when this is going on.
Being Hijacked By The Recovery Movement
Dr. Dines: So as difficult as this is, and I understand, ultimately you have to do what is right for your moral compass. Which is not living with a man who is exploitative. And if you have children, your first and most important commitment is to bring up healthy adults, and you cannot do that in a toxic home.
Anne: Thank you, I love hearing this from you as a feminist. It feels different and sounds different. It sounds so much more empowering than typical church talks about love, forgiveness and service.
Dr. Dines: What bothers me is this whole notion of the recovery movement. Some groups have hijacked us. But I’ve been at conferences where I’ve spoken to some of these recovery teams. One of the things I noticed was that I was visiting a conference where they all had their materials out. I was going along speaking to them. Many of them had their arms firmly planted around their wife, like she was a prop here, and they would say, we’re in recovery.
And I would say, okay, I’m just a bit confused here, so who was using this stuff? And he would say, I am. So you mean you’re in recovery? And she’s recovering from you using it. Let’s be clear here. Who’s doing what? And it felt disingenuous. It felt their wives were being used as a prop. And the questions they never addressed are that if a man has been using it, the answer is not simply to stop using it, because that’s not enough.
He Needs A Serious Change Because His Identity Has Been Defined By This Garbage
Dr. Dines: That’s like beating a dry drum, because he still has all those images in his head. All those notions of what it means to be a man, which is power over women. It is the key message of exploitative media. The hotter it is, the more power you have over her. Or rather the more power you have over. So I don’t believe in that forgiveness. If he is truly sorry and has been through a journey. And understands the pain he’s caused, and also the women in in it.
He has to make amends with all those women. He has basically supported an industry that has also destroyed women’s lives. It’s the women in it, not just the women he lives with. But to just jump into this notion of forgiveness is too easy an out. It doesn’t get to the core of what he has learned. in his many years of using it. Which is, believe me, not what you want in your life. What you’re hearing here is a much more feminist analysis coming from a non-faith based position.
This is not to criticize the faith-based positions. But to say it’s not enough to say that you believe in God and forgiveness, or whatever. You need a serious change and commitment from your partner to this. Because otherwise, you’re just dealing with somebody whose development has been defined by exploitative media. Even if he’s not looking at it, absolutely.
Anne: The same abusive thought processes, entitlement, and feelings of superiority will remain. That is dangerous. What we’re seeing right now is so many men claim to be in recovery. Yet they still exhibit these abusive behaviors, lying, manipulation, and anger.
The Importance Of Joy & Safety
Anne: I don’t know whether the exploitative media has stopped or not, right? Because the lying continues, but at least we can see that the abusive behaviors are continuing.
Dr. Dines: And even if they’re not looking at it, they’ve got it in their head.
Anne: Right, that’s why here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we see it as an abuse issue. As women start to wrap their heads around that, it makes it easier to know what to do. Okay, instead of loving, serving, and forgiveness, I need to protect myself. What do I need to have a safe home and live a safe life? And I’m going to work toward my own personal safety and the safety of my children.
Dr. Dines: And a joyful life. We want joy in our lives, and connection, intimacy, and love. All those things that make life worth living. Safety is obviously the most important, but we want much, much more than that, and we deserve more than that.
Anne: Many of my listeners are just trying to get to safety. That is the first base, so to speak, and they’re not there yet. When you’re in that abuse, it’s so overwhelming to even think. All I want is he’s, you know, please just get me to the shore.
Dr. Dines: I totally understand that, but what I say is, and why I bring joy, is that because your life is often so steeped in misery in this position. It’s hard to ever think that you can ever feel joy again. And it’s important to look to the future, as well as to what you want for yourself. And in that future, it has to be joy, and you deserve a loving connected relationship.
Important Work To Stop Exploitation
Dr. Dines: One with absolutely no exploitation in it, because as soon as it gets into your relationship, it becomes toxic.
Anne: Dr. Dines, thank you so much for spending time with me and coming on today’s episode.
Dr. Dines: Well, it was a pleasure, and thank you for asking me. It’s wonderful work you’re doing Anne.
Anne: Thank you.
Teen Dating Violence: How To Help Your Daughter Avoid An Abusive Boyfriend
May 24, 2022
Are you hoping to help your daughter avoid teen dating violence, even if it’s “just” emotional and psychological abuse?
Anne Blythe, M.Ed. interviews Sid, a teenager, who shares her heart wrenching story with empowering tips for mothers of teens.
Teen dating violence never happens without emotional abuse. The best way to avoid teen dating violence is to determine if there’s emotional abuse. Take this free emotional abuse quiz to find out.
Sid shares that early on in the relationship, her abusive ex-boyfriend was kind, flattering, and romantic. The first red flag for her was that he told her a lie.
Abusive relationships are often detectable by the presence of lying. If your teen’s dating partner is telling lies, it is a strong indicator that your teen may be a target of sexual coercion and abuse.
Sexual Phone Calls Are Sometimes The First Signal Of Teen Dating Violence
A teen may feel uncomfortable by the way her boyfriend uses sexually explicit language on phone calls, but she may not realize that this is a form of sexual abuse.
Parents can open preemptive discussions with children who are not yet dating, or initiate discussions with teens who are dating, regarding the red flags of an abusive teen boyfriend.
Teaching teens about sexual coercion is important, so they know what to watch for.
Here are some steps you can take to begin empowering your children to engage in healthy relationships:
Educate teens about coercion, dating violence, and abuse
Anne: I have a special guest on the podcast today. It is my friend’s daughter. So my friend Dina runs Educate and Empower Kids. Many of you may be familiar with Educate and Empower Kids. It is a non profit that provides parents with education to teach their kids great online habits and healthy ways of interacting.
And Dina called me to tell me about an experience that her daughter had. This is an important conversation to help teens avoid abuse. So I’m actually going to have her share the experience. She is 18 years old. Let’s just start Sid with what happened. Can you please share your story?
Sid: Sure, so I began dating a guy we’ll call him David. It was the end of my junior year of high school, and we only dated for about five months. It was a difficult experience for me, because of how he treated me. And the habits I learned from that experience of dating him. And I’ve also just begun noticing some patterns that he has with every girlfriend he’s dated.
I know his current girlfriend and I just see a lot of the same things going on with her. I wish she would listen to me. I’ve shared my experiences with her, and it’s just drawn attention to them more to me.
First Signs of Trouble
Sid: So something I didn’t know before this relationship was that an abusive relationship is not just physical. Someone can hurt me emotionally by manipulating me and lying to me over and over again and that is. And I had never learned that before. I didn’t see it in my relationship until it was over. Other people told me how bad it was. So our relationship seemed perfect for the first month.
David would send me poems, and he’d call me each night and tell me how amazing I was. And he dressed nicely and spoke well of others. He was close with his family and a strong member of the church, and he was smooth and ideal. Just the perfect social media looking boyfriend. I thought I found someone I could date for a long time, even forever. Until I found out that he lied to me about some things.
The first big lie, he didn’t seem to care, and he kept making excuses until I threatened to break up with him. It wasn’t that I meant it to be a threat. It was just more like I told him that I was uncomfortable with that. And so, he had told me he hadn’t had sex before, but the truth was he had, and I was worried he would lie to me again. And, it wasn’t necessarily that he had done that before, it was just that he told me a completely different story. He fabricated this whole lie around it.
Confrontation & Guilt
Sid: And he practically begged me to stay with him, and he cried and just kind of made me feel guilty, like I was at fault. And so we stayed together and began to repair the relationship, but it wasn’t really repairing it.
Anne: Sid, how did you find out he had lied to you? By the way for teens and adults, lying is emotionally abusive in and of itself.
Sid: We had a lot of mutual friends. Actually, I met David through another one of my friends, and she knew a lot about him. She had another friend who had dated him in the past. So I had two different, good friends that knew him well.
And they informed me about it when I hung out with them one time. I was talking about him and how good things were and stuff, and how he related to me a lot. And how we had handled relationships in the past. Because we talked about that, and they told me that what I knew about him was actually not true, so they told me the real story.
So I confronted him about it, just you know, to double check if they were lying. And at first he said they were lying. Then I went into more detail of what they had told me. He admitted to it, and told me it was true and he lied to me.
Anne: What do you think would have happened if he had said, these two girls are liars, they’re not telling the truth? Knowing what you know about him now, obviously you wouldn’t believe him, but back at that point, do you think you would have believed him over your friends?
Dating violence: Questioning David’s Character
Sid: I think it would have made me question him and his character more, just because I trusted my friends more. They had told me they would have his old girlfriend, that he had had intercourse with, talk to me about it. Because they were both really close with her. I didn’t know her at all. But I know that I would have been able to find out the truth from those girls, and I would have trusted them more. Because they really didn’t have any benefit in me and David breaking up.
They didn’t have a reason to lie to me about it. Whereas David had a big reason to lie to me about that, because he knew my standards and that they didn’t align with the things he had done in the past. After he like admitted to it and apologized, we had this big conversation about him not lying to me. He acted like it humbled him. And he wanted us to work on things and make it right. So we kind of went through that honeymoon phase, as people will call it, where everything was perfect again.
He was very sweet and respectful to me, and there were always these little blips where he would be overly explicit with me, and I was uncomfortable with that. I didn’t want to do those kinds of things with him.
And so, those were the only things going wrong. But I always overlooked them because of all the other flowery behavior he had. He would buy me things, and he would compliment me all the time. He acted like he cared. So, it didn’t feel like he objectified me as much, even though he really was.
David’s Continued Lies
Sid: After a month of that kind of behavior, I found out that he had lied again, and this time it was much more minor. Both lies were about things that had to do with other girls in the past. So this one was about one of those friends who had originally told me about what he had done with his other old girlfriend. And this girl had also previously dated him. So I had another friend from church, we’ll call her Mary.
Mary is not part of the situation, but she knew David. She saw him flirt with another girl, and that other girl had dated him before. I was kind of friends with her, but not very close. This girl, Mary, told me that it made a lot of other people in the class uncomfortable. Because they all knew he was still dating me, but was acting as if he wasn’t with this other girl. So I asked David if he felt like he had been doing that. He, of course, said no, like, it’s friendly, it’s nothing like that.
Mary sent me a picture of him with his arm around her, and this video clip of him massaging her neck. It wasn’t a huge deal, it was more like he kept being dishonest about it. Then further than that, he tried to make me feel guilty about accusing him of things. He was like, Oh, you’re accusing me of cheating on you. And you’re acting like I’m untrustworthy, even though I’ve tried to earn that back this whole month. So I just felt bad.
Realizing the Truth
Sid: And then he was like, Oh, you’re so judgmental. You’re always making me feel bad about stuff that I do, which at first I believed him. But I’ve talked to so many people and told them about it. And I was really unsure, because in the past, no one had ever said that about me. And so, I started to realize that that wasn’t true, but at the time, I felt like he was telling me the truth. He would say he didn’t lie at all sometimes, and then sometimes he would be super careful with his words.
So that he could be vague and make it seem like I was the one who was wrong. And it’s confusing to explain, but instead of answering a question like, Have you had it before? With a response like, No, I am still a virgin. He would say, I don’t consider myself having had it with her. Or, I didn’t go all the way with her. And various other responses.
So he made me feel guilty for his own mistakes by blaming them on me being judgmental. He made me dig into it and ask specific questions over and over, just to get a simple truth from him.
Anne: Objectification can be the first step to committing teen dating violence. And maybe even then you didn’t get the truth, right? Even when you thought, okay, finally, I’ve hit the bottom of this. It still may not have been. That is emotionally abusive and teen dating violence.
Sid: Yeah, exactly. I could only get the information that other people could prove to me. And to this day, I don’t really know all the things that he could have lied to me about.
Teen Dating Violence: He Lies About Pornography Use
Sid: Maybe it was really just those things that I had found out about just because he’s very good at hiding all the things that he’s done.
Anne: Do you know about his pornography use? And how use can be associated with teen dating violence?
Sid: I had never asked him before until he had told me he had sex before finally, and he admitted to that. He said something to me like, oh well that’s just who I am, like I can’t help that. I’m very driven or something like that and I was like, oh when did that start? I just made the assumption that he had watched it before because I feel like in other relationships I’ve had, there were circumstances like that.
When they would act really explicit towards me, they would admit that, Oh, I’ve watched a lot of pornography, and it’s kind of affected how I see people. Whereas David would tell me, Oh, I’ve seen it before once or twice, just because I know everyone watches it. And I wanted to see what it was about, but I don’t watch it anymore.
I’m not interested in that kind of thing. So, I am really unsure if he has watched a lot, but I would definitely assume just by the things he would say to me. He would use this dirty language with me, and I would ask him to stop. And he would tell me how it’s so common. And I felt like, those things are only learned from explicit material.
Anne: You’re 18, so part of this podcast, I’ll teach you a little bit, but I’m sure your mom has talked about this. That, “I used to watch it, but I don’t anymore,” is extremely common for a current user.
Acting as an obedient church goer
Anne: That’s a common lie they say, which you probably look back now are like, yeah, he had to have kept using it if he was acting like that, right? And especially as an “obedient” church goer. I would say that’s a pretty clear sign that he was currently using.
Sid: Yeah, when we were dating, he went to church a lot. And I’ve heard from other people now that we’ve broken up that he does not go to church anymore. He would kind of go on and off before we had dated.
So I think a lot of the things he told me when we dated were to make me feel like he was a good church member. When in reality I don’t think he has a super strong testimony of it. It was just kind of all that show and that way of manipulating me into thinking that he was someone he’s not.
Anne: Manipulation and control are tactics abusers and perpetrators of teen violence use. So tell me what happens next.
Sid: As we were dating, I made it clear that my standards were that I didn’t want to have it before marriage. I didn’t even want to do anything that would resemble any sort of sexual act. That would include any touching under clothing, rubbing up on each other. I was only fine with kissing or snuggling.
Beginning of pushing boundaries
Sid: On the phone is how it began. He would mention to me, like, oh, I want to do this to you, and he would insert some sort of sexual act. And I would tell him, okay, like, you can make jokes about that, I guess, on the phone. Since it seems like you’re already doing that. I would appreciate if you make it clear to me that you don’t really want to do that. I don’t want to do that.
And he would say something like, oh, well, you’ll come along, or like, oh, you’ll want to later on. So it kind of put this idea in my head, oh, well, maybe I’m supposed to do those things. And I knew it was wrong from a church standpoint and from my standards. But it was hard, because he would talk to me like that so much. And I would definitely feel like I had to or like he didn’t feel like I loved him enough if I didn’t do that.
There were a few times in my car before I dropped him off at home, we would be kissing. And then he would try to move his hand somewhere, and I would move it away at first. But he would try again, so it seemed like he kept trying every time he had a moment that he could. So eventually I would just slowly let it happen. Just these little things would slip. And I think the worst time it happened when there was real coercion would be a few months in.
Dating Violence: He scared me
Sid: We were kissing, and then I remember telling him no. He had started to take off some of my clothing, and then he started to put his hands in places where I didn’t want. I told him no out loud, and he pretended like he didn’t hear me. And so I said it again, and I pushed him off of me. I started to cry because it had scared me.
He stopped and said he was sorry and didn’t hear me. But there was just this feeling in my gut that I knew he had heard me. I knew I had said it loud enough and that he was close enough that he had to have heard me. It was quiet. It was only us. I think that was my first sign that he didn’t care about me.
After that day, when things went far a lot further than I had ever expected. We didn’t have it, but there were definitely things going on that day. I felt a lot of guilt, so I told David that I didn’t want to do anything like that ever again. And that I would prefer if we only had short kissing in a public place as I said goodbye to him, and that I didn’t feel comfortable.
This was a phone call, and he kept saying, Oh, you know, that’s okay. I completely accept that. But from that moment on, he started to distance himself. And I noticed every day that he would just text me less.
He distanced himself
Sid: I didn’t see him super often, because he went to a different school than I did. Much of our relationship during the school year was texting and phone calls, besides seeing each other on the weekends for dates.
And so, immediately that week, I noticed he texted me a lot less. I would know that he had a lot of free time and would deliberately not text me or call me at night. He would say oh, I can’t do that. I have this. So I assumed he was under a lot of stress. I made a lot of excuses for him, because I was too wrapped up in the relationship. I remember asking him about it, and he had turned it around on me. It was like Oh, I feel like you’re bored of me or like you don’t even love me enough. Like you don’t want to do any of this stuff.
You don’t feel safe around me, and it makes me too sad. So I just saw a lot of this time starting to go away from me. He wasn’t interested in me as much. So one night, we were on a date. We were hanging out with some of his friends, and one of his friends made a joke like, oh, did you tell your girlfriend that you skipped school yesterday?
And I didn’t care that he skipped school, but the night before we had been on the phone, and he had gone through this whole day at school talking to me about school and stuff as if he had been there. So I asked him, on the phone, you talked about school as if you were there. Did you not go to school yesterday?
Blaming me & breaking up
Sid: He was like, maybe we should talk outside. So I went outside, collected myself. And then he came out and we started talking. I just started crying. I was like, David, why do you continue to lie to me about things like that? That’s not even a big thing. Why did you feel like you had a lie to me? That just makes me feel like maybe you were doing something you shouldn’t be doing that day.
Maybe there’s a reason why you’re not telling me. And he was again, Hey, you’re so judgmental. I just felt like you were gonna get so mad at me about this. So I shut down, I was like, I feel like we have a lot of problems, and you’re not helping to work on repair with me. I know you’ve been lying to me a lot about other things that I can’t find out about through other people. I can’t tell when you’re being honest with me. You lie straight to my face about things, and it makes me really uncomfortable.
Either I need you to tell me that we’re going to work on this and need to actually make a plan. Or our relationship needs to end. And so he said, oh, we’re gonna make a plan. I was like, okay, I love you. All right, bye. And then he was like, I love you more. And I was like, I don’t think you do. Because you wouldn’t treat me like that if you did.
He was like, you’re right. You love me more.I think we should break up. I lost motivation for you. He just started dropping all this stuff on me. This was teen dating emotional abuse. I lost motivation a few months ago.
Teen Dating Violence: Discovering the Cheating
Sid: We broke up and didn’t talk for a month. The biggest point for me was when I realized how bad our relationship was, when his ex girlfriend contacted me. She told me they were dating again and had gotten back together in August. And mine and David’s relationship hadn’t ended until October. I realized then that he was dating another girl simultaneously, cheating on me for a few months.
And so me and his ex girlfriend and current girlfriend met up and we were talking about it. One of my other friends involved, she was one of the friends that had told me when he had lied to me the first time about having it. They were all kind of mixed up in that mess too.
So the three of us girls were talking about it, and she’s still dating him. So she talked about how he treats her now, and it’s very similar and actually worse than how he treated me.
Anne: Did she perceive it as dating violence and abuse?
Sid: She did not. She perceived it as, Oh, it’s on me, just whatever traits he had told her that she has, that made him act that way.
Anne: Oh, she was blaming herself.
Sid: Yes, so she went into detail of all the things they’d been doing, and how she thought they had been dating for the last few months that I was still dating him. And I told her that’s a red flag that he cheated on me with you. And now you guys are dating. Like, do you not see that he’s going to do that to you?
You know, she was like, Oh, maybe he will. I don’t know. Oh, you’ve given me so much to think about.
Reflecting on the Relationship
Sid: And it just struck me then. That’s how I would have been if I had found out something like that when I was dating him. Just because he seemed like he was this perfect boyfriend. He would do all these other boyfriend things, but when it came down to it, he didn’t care about me. And I only see that now that I’m out of it, whereas his current girlfriend can’t see that.
Anne: Yeah, so this is typical of what wives of explicit materials users and cheaters are going through, all the gaslighting, lying and manipulation. But this is happening in high school for you. So I want to talk about what you learned from the experience with teen dating?
Sid: After the experience and talking to other people, I realized that it’s not okay in a relationship for someone to be dishonest. First of all, and then second of all, to blame you for their own problems. And I also learned a lot about what I deserve, and that came through myself though. I wrote in my journal a lot after the experience, and during the experience, I had written some things too. Just when I asked questions, I felt self conscious about talking about some of the things in our relationship to my friends or even my mom.
And after we broke up, I felt much more comfortable telling my mom everything. I went through it all, and she helped me learn about what an abusive relationship really is, and how what I had experienced could affect me. And so, I wrote in my journal a lot. I would write mostly what I wanted in a future relationship to make it better.
This behavior is more common
Sid: I really set a better standard for what I’m going to expect from someone, so that I won’t accept that kind of behavior again. The thing is, you can’t completely protect yourself from those experiences. I can’t say if I go to college, that I might not end up in a relationship like that again. But at least that way, I can recognize it and end it a lot earlier on.
I think a lot of the damage I’ve taken with me affected how I viewed myself. I felt extremely hurt when I found out that he had completely lost interest and started dating someone else while he was dating me. And I felt completely inadequate as a human being, like, as if I wasn’t enough for him.
Finding that self worth came a lot from Heavenly Father. Just from going to church, the temple, doing service, performing well in school, hanging out with my family and being with people I knew cared about me. Also becoming successful in a way that I valued. Some days it still hurts a lot. Some days I’ll see something on Instagram about him or his girlfriend. And it kind of brings some of it back. I feel sad about it. But I know that it’ll continue to fade away slowly for me, and that I’m continuing to heal every day from it.
Anne: So this type of dating violence behavior is becoming more common. As more men embrace pornography, they objectify women more. They feel more entitled to their own abusive opinions, and other women’s bodie,s using them for their own purposes. Rather than actually caring about them.
Dating Violence: Friends’ Experiences with Abuse
Anne: Talk to me about your friends’ experiences. Have they experienced the same thing with other kids in your school? Let’s talk about what this looks like on the high school level.
Sid: Yeah, I’ve had three friends with major problems, and of course I have friends with more minor abusive relationships. One of my friends, we’ll call her Jessie, was in a relationship with this boy in the ROTC program. And so was she, and so I knew them through some of my other ex boyfriends in ROTC. So this girl, Jessie, had been dating this guy for a long time, maybe six months. After prom, he wanted to have it, and she didn’t want to. So she had left in a rush.
And the next day at school, she had been trying to go to the ROTC room for a meeting. And this young man came up, pushed her against the wall, yelled at her, and punched the wall next to her. It was definitely dating violence and assault. The ROTC instructor saw them and did not report anything to the school. I think only a few other students maybe saw it, and no one did anything about it. He didn’t lose his position in ROTC. I did not see any consequences.
And this girl, Jessie, felt too scared to go to court. She didn’t want to go through all that process. Because she knew it wouldn’t fix the problem that much, as it would make it worse, cause more drama, and maybe he would react in a worse way to that. I just saw that fear in her, and I realized how sometimes you can feel helpless in those situations.
Feeling Helpless & scared
Sid: And how you can be really helpless, especially at school when there are people who won’t help you like they should.
Anne: Yeah, what you’re describing is that a teacher witnessed an abuse episode in an abuse situation. And did not call it out for what it was or try in any way to keep the victim safe.
That’s scary, super, super scary. And the most likely reason why is because they don’t understand abuse and teen violence. Not necessarily because they’re an evil person that likes abuse, but because they don’t know what it looks like. But that’s exactly what it looks like. And it’s happening on school grounds, and it’s happening everywhere. And tell me about your other friend.
Another Friend’s Assault
Sid: Another one of my friends, she had a boyfriend a long time ago. She’s in college now, but when she lived here and we were good friends. She told me how a year or two ago in her sophomore or junior year of high school. She had dated this guy for about a year when it was his birthday. And they had messed around and done a few things before, but not as severe. He wanted to have it, so she thought he might want to do that.
She knew she didn’t want to, and she had told him beforehand that she didn’t want to have sex. But while they were kissing, it went further and further. She tried to stop him, and he forced her to have it with him. At first when things were kind of going on, she had been like, no, no, and he didn’t listen. And she realized he wasn’t going to listen and that he might hurt her if she didn’t go along with it.
And so she didn’t go along with it, but she just said she was just present. So after that, she had gone to church and told her bishop about the violence. And she had felt a lot of guilt. She took it as though we had it, and I didn’t want to, but I felt like I had to. So, she went in and told her bishop about the situation, and he basically told her it was still her fault because they had done stuff beforehand, and he was her boyfriend, and that it wasn’t considered rape.
Teen Dating Violence: Aftermath of Assault
Anne: Wow, sorry, let’s just pause there, everyone. Wow! Okay.
Sid: It was crazy, and she had felt a lot of guilt, and she was young for something like that to happen. And so she cried and she cried, and she continued to meet with that bishop and repent for it, as if it was all her fault for that situation. She and that boy ended up breaking up a while later, and then they got back together and were on and off.
Her family ended up moving away, so she was completely out of that relationship situation by the time she told me the story. So she could look back. And I just remember her telling me that I needed to always remember that if someone ever tries to force me to do something, it’s not on me. And so that she had learned from other people that that was wrong, but how at the time she was so misled, so hurt by that.
Anne: Does she know now that she was raped? Does she call it that?
Sid: Yes, she does.
Anne: Okay, and when she says that, does she seem confident about it? Is it hard for her to say?
Sid: She doesn’t like using the word rape, but she does talk about it as an assault. I can tell that it makes her uncomfortable, and she obviously has only told a few people that were super close to her. I know it hurts her a lot still. It’s been hard for her. She’s dating someone now, but it took her a long time because that was a few years ago.
Clergy’s Misunderstanding of Abuse
Sid: She’s just recently started dating someone again, because the idea of being with another guy scared her. Even just a hug from a boy, would make her tense up a lot, and her heart rate would go up. She just felt a lot of fear from that.
Anne: Yeah, for good reason. Wow, oh my word. That example you gave of clergy not calling it rape is so common and so detrimental to victims. And also doesn’t hold perpetrators accountable for their assault. The more we can educate women about this, in their hearts, they could know what happened and help educate other women about it. And that’s what this podcast is about today.
Sid, for other teenagers who may or may not have experienced an abusive relationship, sexual assault or dating a pornography user. Either confirmed or secret user, what advice would you give them after your experience with dating violence and after what you’ve seen with your friends?
Sid: I would say, first, set your standard, know what you expect from someone, learn what the signs are of an abusive relationship. When you’re in a dating relationship, you start to feel hurt by them in ways that you don’t understand. Talk to your family, talk to people you trust. Maybe people who have experienced things like that and see how they feel about it.
Also, I don’t remember where I got this advice, but I think someone at church once told me. That if a friend told you a story, if you thought they were being hurt, then you would tell them, Oh, you need to break up with them. You need not be with them. And so you need to consider yourself your own friend.
Educating about red flags
Sid: If you were telling your story to someone else. Would they tell you not to be with them anymore? If your story was coming from a friend, would you tell them to stay with that person? Because I know for me, if someone told me the story of me and David as if it was them in that situation, I would 100 percent tell them that they should not be with that person. That what’s going on is not their fault, and that they’re being manipulated.
With that knowledge, now I can clearly see that I should not have been in that relationship. Just becoming more educated on the red flags, so you can see it from the beginning. And keeping in contact with other people, what’s going on, update them, make sure you’re safe.
Anne: Mm hmm. I’m so proud of you. So many times young women are so embarrassed, thinking, well, it is partially my fault, and I don’t want anyone to know. When they don’t realize they were coerced or even raped. And are victims of dating violence and assault. I’ve had several friends who were raped, and they didn’t call it that because they didn’t know that’s what it was. I’m so proud of you.
Share this with other young women
Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today and talking about teen dating violence. I appreciate your bravery and sharing your story. As you can tell, this episode is a good one to share with the young women in your life, to teach them about sexual assaults, to teach them about manipulation and lying,
To help women understand abuse better, if you are on Facebook, please share this link so that we can educate everybody about this. For those of you who frequently share links to this podcast on your social media. Thank you. You are making a difference. And for those who make a recurring monthly donation to support this podcast. Thank you.
How Fundamentalism and Patriarchy Fuel Abuse – Emily’s Story
May 17, 2022
If you grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home, you may be all too familiar with how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse.
To know if you’re experiencing this type of abuse in your church or home, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Emily is on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, sharing her experiences with a fundamentalist cult. Recognizing and then escaping the abusiveness of her upbringing has led her to support other victims – including the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community.
Fundamentalism & Patriarchy Are Intertwined
You can’t have fundamentalist teachings without patriarchy lurking ominously. Patriarchy is simply disguised misogyny, and misogyny is at the root of abuse.
Using Religion To Excuse & Enable Abuse
Fundamentalist religious communities use patriarchal (misogynistic) doctrines to excuse and enable abuse: Whether you’ve recently wondered if there are abusive patterns in your faith community, or you’ve been nuanced for some time. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are a safe place for you to process your trauma and find a community of women who will never judge you on your journey. We love you, we believe you.
Transcript: How Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse
Anne: I am so honored to have Emily on today’s episode. She’s a trauma recovery advocate for people who’ve experienced abuse within a Christian environment. She grew up in a fundamentalist cult for 23 years and experienced childhood domestic violence. We will talk about how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. Emily began her journey to recovery and eventually found Jesus her ultimate healer.
Welcome, Emily.
Emily: Oh, thank you, Anne, so much for having me on today. I’m so excited about this. I’ve been looking forward to this for quite a while.
Anne: So let’s start with your own personal story. Can you talk to us about your personal experiences in fundamentalism and patriarchy? And as you’re explaining that, would you also mind sharing your definition of fundamentalism?
Emily: Absolutely, so my parents raised me in a Baptist Christian home. My parents were both school teachers at what I consider a fundamentalist patriarchal Christian school.
So there are so many definitions of fundamentalism. There’s the definition where Christians just take the Word of God as inerrant, and they take it literally. And I would say I am still a Christian, and I would say I still believe in the inerrancy of God’s Word. I still take it pretty literally, other than the obvious poetic passages, you know.
But, my experience with fundamentalism was actually an almost prosperity gospel type experience. They taught me Christians have a very black and white world. Everything is either good or evil. I grew up listening to teachers and instructors ideas. Their ideas of what they considered right and what they considered wrong. And we’re talking about things that are not actually laid out clearly in scripture.
Women Considered Beneath Men
Emily: Things like what kind of music you can listen to or how you dress. Those kinds of things. So actually just a lot of the extra stuff that Christians can disagree about. People’s different opinions on what is considered Christlike behavior. Opinions in the fundamentalist world are pared down to everything.
Everything’s black and white. There is no gray area whatsoever. And so if you follow all the rules, your life will be amazing, and God will bless you. If you are experiencing any kind of hardship in your life, it’s because you’re obviously not following all the rules. This is one of the ways fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. And if you think you are, you probably have some secrets hidden in your heart.
Anne: So would you say, with your definition of fundamentalism, that there are men who define these things? So for example, they define what you should wear. Or what you should read or watch. Or the way you should spend your time, and there’s very little autonomy for women.
Emily: Yes, for sure. Every fundamentalist teaching I’ve ever encountered also goes hand in hand with patriarchy. And that’s going to be the primary topic of what we’re discussing today and what patriarchy looks like. But for the most part, it looks like men doing the teaching and interpreting of scripture.
Leadership repeatedly tells women that it’s easy to deceive them, like Eve. So you have to have male authority over you for your protection, safety, provision and interpretation of scripture. They consider women beneath men, they are the property of men. They must have some kind of male headship and authority, rather than God being their direct authority.
Early Education & Gothard Homeschool
Anne: These are some of the effects of spiritual abuse. Back in the day, women were property. And then around the 1800s, that didn’t fly anymore. Christians picked up the reason they’re less than because God ordained it so. The patriarchy has sort of evolved the reasons why women are less than, and none of them hold water. But they have to have some reason, and unfortunately in the Christian world women have bought into this, and fundamentalism and patriarchy has really harmed us. Fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. This also plays into things like ritual abuse.
Emily: I think patriarchy is a nice package for abuse, power and control. And so many abusers like to use it and claim it is of God. It is not. They feed women that this is what God wants. I saw patriarchy used to excuse abusive behavior. So as I said, my parents raised me first in a Baptist home, and we went to a pretty fundamentalist patriarchal church that was also a school. My parents were teachers at that school.
My parents raised me in that school system from first through fourth grade. But in fifth grade, my parents left that church and moved on to a different church. At the same time, my mother decided to homeschool me. And at that point we joined The Advanced Training Institute, a homeschool cult run by a man named Bill Gothard.
Gothard initially founded his ministry, the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts, in the 1960s, and eventually evolved to the Institute in Basic Life Principles, and that was the parent organization. ATI, the Advanced Training Institute, started in the 80s when the homeschooling movement started to pick up.
Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse: The Wisdom Booklets & ATI Conferences
Emily: And we had homeschooling material that we would work through every day. So every family did things differently. Some families exclusively used the ATI materials for their homeschool education. It was different, not a comprehensive education by any stretch of the imagination. But other families like mine chose to use the ATI materials just for Bible study time. And then we did thorough education on top of that.
In addition to using the ATI materials. The 52 Wisdom Booklets were the primary materials. And you did one booklet per month. And then when you got to the end, you would just start back over with number one again. Children of all ages used these Wisdom Booklets simultaneously.
https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I
So families would gather together, and you would have from toddlers, all the way up to high school students, reading these wisdom booklets together and having family discussions based on them. So with my family, my mother and I just read through the wisdom booklets first thing in the morning, and then we did other schoolwork later in the day.
Families attended homeschool conferences each year. You would attend one conference per year, but they would have a few select locations. You picked whichever one was closest to you in the United States. I loved the ATI conferences because in a cult, you live in your own unique culture.
They raise you in this little bubble. You’re told that anyone who doesn’t believe exactly the way you do is potentially dangerous. Or not a Christian, or will be a bad influence at least.
Realizing The Cult Environment
Emily: So, you fellowship with those who believe. You associate only with like-minded believers who believe similar things. The conferences were my safe place every year. Because families surrounded me that looked exactly like I looked. We all dressed the same, talked the same, consumed the same media and had the same belief systems. So it felt like a very, very safe place.
I didn’t come to the understanding until many years later that this was actually a cult. And this is one of the classic cult environments that you experience. Bill Gothard groomed me starting at 13 when he was in his 70s.
Anne: And he is the leader of this cult.
Emily: He is the leader, yes. He groomed me from 13 until I was 18 years old. That looked like Bill approaching me at every conference and trying to convince me to leave home and permanently move up to the organization’s headquarters, which was in Chicago. And he did this frequently. He would consistently have teenagers leave their homes for extended periods.
Whether that is months or upwards to years, and they would move to headquarters. They would work at headquarters, whether in the shipping department, answering phone calls, or working in the kitchens. Many teenage girls personally worked with Bill and did more secretarial work for him. So he groomed me for six years, asking me to eventually come up there. I did have a short time when I was 18 years old. I was only up there for about 10 days, thank God.
Joining The Lawsuit Against Gothard
Emily: My mother was alongside me, and that 10 day interaction with Bill was negative. His behavior toward me became increasingly abusive and inappropriate. It basically became a war between us where he wanted me to stay. My mother and I did not feel comfortable with that. So eventually we chose to go back home. And about a year later, I came across a website created by survivors of ATI. They were raised in the system.
They are now adults who came out of it, and understood the toxicity of the belief system. And they started to write articles online about what is toxic about the teachings, and how this was actually a cult and not biblical. So I came across this website and started reading stories from other young women targeted by Bill. Or at least they had allegations of such behavior.
I read those articles, and realized that I experienced what they called grandfatherly affection. It actually crossed the line into harassment. And later, after a few more years, I joined a lawsuit with 19 other victims with various allegations. We fought in that lawsuit for five years until 2020. And the lawsuit did not conclude the way we had hoped, we had to withdraw it before we went to trial.
I can’t go into all the reasons why we did, but there were various legal reasons why we chose to withdraw. We have not taken back any of our allegations or our stance on what we believe happened there. Today, I choose to use my voice for good, and I try to warn people of the abuse common in patriarchal organizations.
Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse By The Lack Of Education
Emily: Hopefully, to give insight to victims and share that this is not a biblical system at all.
Anne: Thank you so much for sharing. That sounds really difficult. People don’t realize that all of this emotional and psychological grooming from thier husband or someone in a position of power even if it does not result in some type of physical assault, is still very damaging to victims.
Emily: Yes, absolutely, that was a turning point in my deconstruction process. I actually began professional therapy just a month after joining the lawsuit, and I now call that day my freedom day. So tomorrow is my freedom day, and I’m celebrating six years out of the cult. But part of my initial therapy was to help me understand what actually constitutes abuse, and what abuse looks like.
Often in fundamentalist circles, I see a lack of education, because usually these groups focus on the purity movement, the courtship movement. That has all its own problems. No one tells students what sexual abuse looks like. And so, not only did I experience this harassment from Bill. Also, throughout my teenage years, my father abused me. My father molested me at one point.
So I didn’t believe it was abuse. I thought that to call it abuse, it had to involve some kind of penetration. The emotional ramifications and trauma that ensue, and the PTSD, can be severe. Even when you are dealing with just harassment or abuse.
Anne: “just,”
Emily: Yes, exactly, milder instances. You could say.
Anne: I don’t know if I’d even call it milder. It’s all awful.
The Impact Of Emotional & Psychological Abuse
Anne: All of it is awful, perhaps in some women’s minds, depending on their understanding of abuse, like if someone hits you in the face, it’s awful, but you know, they hit you in the face. Whereas the psychological and emotional stuff is so damaging, partly because it’s so confusing, and so that is so damaging. I never want to use the word just because it’s very, very damaging.
And I would say most women who have been physically assaulted. There is no physical assault without emotional and psychological assault. Most say that psychological and emotional abuse was the hardest part they had to heal from. Wrapping your head around it, trying to figure out what happened, questioning yourself. All that stuff made it so difficult to figure out what was going on.
Emily: Yes, I believe emotional abuse is a form of physical abuse. Another part of my story is because of the abuse I experienced, both through Gothard and my father.
I developed an autoimmune disease at 11 years old, which is young. I was officially diagnosed when I was 13 with Crohn’s disease. You can look in the photo albums and see when my symptoms first began. It correlates exactly when the abuse from my father began.
I have talked to a lot of survivors, and many women are confused. They say, well, he’s not physically abusive. He doesn’t hit me. You know, he’s never been physically violent toward me or anything like that. But then they explain severe and in-depth emotional, psychological, intellectual and financial abuse. There are so many layers of abuse. All those layers of emotional abuse can cause a stress reaction in the body.
The Need For Emotional & Psychological Safety
Emily: Which begins to tear down your body systems and whacks out your hormones, causing systemic inflammation and infections. So one of the common repercussions of emotional abuse is actually physical illness. So really, it’s not any less abuse because he didn’t hit you.
Anne: Yeah, I want that to hit home with victims who are listening. Who think they don’t have enough to warrant them making their way to safety. You know, like it’s not so bad yet that I have to do something about it. Like it is already to the point where you need to seek safety, emotional,and psychological safety. All those things are so important. I’m so sorry to hear about your disorder. That is so hard.
Emily: Well, thank you. I still deal with the physical symptoms daily, and I’m having to realize that if my body endured two decades of abuse. It will take a while to be out of that abusive situation, especially when fundamentalism and patriarchy are involved. So my body can slowly heal. Honestly, I’ll probably always deal with some kind of physical repercussion.
Anne: That’s another reason why it’s so concerning to me that people say things like, oh, just forgive or move on. And I think it’s because people don’t realize that there are real, tangible consequences that we live with as abuse victims daily.
That it isn’t just a matter of moving forward with our lives. We move forward with our lives the best way possible, and continue to deal with the consequences of our actions, being victimized. And that is hard for each of us in our own way with all the consequences that we face.
Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse: Understanding Cults
Anne: And it’s unfortunate that the society at large, number one, doesn’t understand abuse. But number two, doesn’t understand what true change looks like in an abuser. If an abuser genuinely understood what they had done, they would be making restitution to their victims for the rest of their lives.
Emily: Yes, and the consequences of abuse and sin can continue to last to some degree.
Anne: Exactly, you used the word cult, and said you weren’t aware that you were in a cult at the time. When you say the word cult, what identifies to you that it’s a cult now?
Emily: Well, I think there are several indicators of what a cult may look like. Usually there is one primary person in authority receiving revelations from God, if this is supposedly a Christian organization. We saw that with Gothard, he wrote quite a few books and came up with some interesting interpretations of scripture that are not found anywhere else.
He loved to write a certain idea of his, and then cherry pick a verse to try to support it. In fundamentalism and patriarchy women are discouraged from interpreting scripture for themselves. So if you actually look up the verses supposed to support his statement. You realize that that verse is completely taken out of context, and it has nothing to do with it, with what he’s talking about most of the time in ATI. You had to pay. So there’s usually some kind of financial investment in a cult. We had to pay a yearly membership to be part of it.
Speaking of memberships, there was a rigorous approval application. So cults usually require their members to hold certain very, very strict standards.
Isolation & Excommunication In Cults
Emily: If you don’t hold to those standards, you aren’t allowed to be part of the organization anymore. We experienced that for sure. You’ve got a fundamentalist patriarchal leader who usually abuses their power. Many times, families become isolated. As I said earlier, they become leery of others who do not believe exactly how they believe.
There’s a lot of isolation that happens. You’re living in a bubble. And if a child grows up, becomes an adult, and decides not to follow the cult standards anymore. Oftentimes excommunication is a result of that, and family relationships are broken off because you can’t fellowship with somebody who is not following the cult lifestyle anymore.
Anne: Okay, so some pretty severe consequences for people who disagree.
Emily: Yes
Anne: Okay, that’s really hard. Thank you for sharing that with us. When we’re talking about the patriarchal mindset common in so many patriarchal organizations, what theological ideations, if any, contribute to that mindset?
Emily: I think patriarchalists often like to start with the first book of the Bible. They love to say Eve was deceived in the garden, and that if Adam had been there, perhaps she wouldn’t have been deceived. This is funny, because if you read scripture, it says after she took of the fruit and ate, she gave it to Adam who was with her.
So that seems clear in scripture that he was actually with her, but they love to say that because Eve was deceived, women are more naturally deceived. And just in the last week, I have listened to two different teachers using the exact phrase that men are rescuers of women. And that is actually a God-ordained position that men are supposed to rescue women from deception.
Men As Protectors & Providers
Emily: Men should protect them from any kind of harm that could come to them in the world. Men are supposed to be protectors, providers, and spiritually lead their family. So often that means the husband or the man should read the scripture to the family. And interpreting the scripture to the family, because women are deceived. And easily confused by scripture, and can’t properly interpret it, they have to have a man interpret it for them.
So many times, there’s a big focus on Genesis, as the reason why patriarchy is God ordained. Also, Ephesians 5:21, the verse on submission is frequently brought up. Often biblical submission becomes abuse. But the verse actually says submit to one another out of reverence to Christ. So even in Ephesians, we see it clearly stating that a husband and wife must be on mutual ground. They’re supposed to submit to one another.
And I think in this instance, submit would be well translated to serve one another or to prioritize each other’s preferences. So it’s talking about kindness and Christlike behavior toward one another. I do not see that as a command to authority whatsoever.
Anne: From what you just said, the main thing that is deceiving women, is men.
Emily: True.
Anne: Right, so if you are concerned that women are being deceived. Then who is deceiving them? And it’s not their fault they’re being deceived. It’s the abusers who lie and manipulate them.
Emily: Right.
Anne: What deceives women? Wicked men, that’s who they’re deceived by. And it’s not their fault, that’s funny. I’m like, maybe you should be trustworthy, and then you wouldn’t have to worry about it.
Fundamentalists Patriarchal Authority use Marriage Ceremonies To Opress
Anne: What does life look like for a woman in the most severe patriarchal Christian organizations?
Emily: I have seen it start with daughters at home, where they are told they must have an authority figure over them. And their God given authority is their father. That authority remains until they’re married. So, in these patriarchal organizations, I’ve been to many weddings. There’s almost always a transfer of authority section in the marriage ceremony. So, the father walks the girl down the aisle, and he’s holding her hand. Then he gives this blessing over her.
Then a speech about how he’s been entrusted with her and he’s been her authority all these years. I’ve seen this with 41 year old women. This is not just young girls, but even 41 year old women who have continued to stay at home to be under their father’s authority. Then he moves her hand into her groom’s hand, and does this like I’m transferring the authority over to the groom. Anyway, so I’ve seen that a lot.
Anne: That makes sense with how women were just property before. So essentially they’re saying, she was my property, but now she’s going to be your property. Except that was not the right thing to say anymore after the late 1800s. And so then they were like, Oh, what are we going to say now? Oh, I know we’ll say our God given authority over them as being transferred.
Emily: Yes, so women raised in patriarchal organizations are often discouraged from working outside the home or for making any kind of income. Because that would be the man’s responsibility. They’re usually stay at home moms, sometimes homeschooling their children.
Consulting Husbands On Decisions
Emily: There’s nothing wrong with stay at home moms by any means, nothing wrong with homeschooling. It’s the idea that it’s more biblical. Than a woman choosing to be a provider for her family, a financial provider. That bothers me. Every family, I think, decides the dynamics, who has which responsibilities, and how those responsibilities are divided.
It’s not more biblical for a woman to be a stay at home mom and the husband to be the breadwinner. Women, because they’re told they’re so easily deceived, are encouraged to consult their husbands on all decisions. No matter how small, any kind of financial decision or decision for the family, or even buying kids clothes. I mean little stuff like that. I’ve seen women have to get their husband’s permission before they do anything.
I have seen women not allowed to take communion unless it’s given to them by their husband. In some churches, if a single woman comes in, or heaven forbid, she’s divorced with children. They don’t allow her to receive communion on her own. An elder has to bring it. They encourage women not to leave abusive relationships.
They don’t tell women what abuse looks like. But if they go to their pastor and explain an abusive situation. They tell women frequently, you just need to submit more. You need to pray quietly, have a meek, quiet, submissive spirit.
Pray for your husband, God will get hold of him. Just lavish him, lavish him with love, affection, and that will make him adore you. It will encourage him to treat you in a Christlike manner. I’ve heard that more times than I can count.
Parent-Child Dynamics In Marriage
Emily: They don’t allow women to confront their husband. They don’t allow women to have an adult to adult relationship, but there’s this parent-child one. Since the husband has this authority position over his wife, he has power and control over her. And so, they don’t have this equal, let’s talk as adults. I can call you out. You can call me out. You don’t see that in these patriarchal worlds.
Anne: That’s fertile ground for abuse in those cases. Because women think they’re following God by submitting to many times just flat out wickedness, which is why fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. And that is really hard, especially in situations where a man uses pornography, and maybe she’s not aware of it. Or he’s soliciting prostitutes, or he has some wicked behavior that she’s not aware of, and she’s submitting to his desires or other things.
She might not even know she’s submitting to wickedness. Women should know they’re not required to submit to wickedness. In fact, God wants you to turn away from that. For women who find themselves in this fog of abuse, and they’re not quite able to see what’s going on.
Emily: I’ve seen a few dynamics at play. First, I call fundamentalism the gumball gospel. So you put a quarter in and you get a gumball out. And so it’s very predictable, and there is a false sense of security in that promised predictability.
Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse: Promises Of Happiness & Security
Emily: They tell you that if you follow all the rules, this will happen. If you follow all the courtship and purity rules, you will have a fantastic marriage that doesn’t have any conflict. And you’ll have an amazing life. Your husband will never cheat on you. They tell you that if you follow all these rules, you’ll receive financial blessings. Your children will grow up as devout followers of Christ. And they will not fall away, as some would say.
There are a lot of promises of happiness, and everything turning out right. You know, happy, fulfilling marriages and not having any struggles. And that goes completely against scripture, in which Jesus was clear. We live in a broken world. We will experience, you’re going to experience pain, hardship, and brokenness is all around you. We’re supposed to keep our eyes focused on Him, and realize this world is our temporary home.
We’re supposed to keep our eyes on our future home, and realize that is where we’re going to experience the perfection of God. It’s not going to be here. And just because you’re experiencing pain here on this earth, it does not mean you’re not following God. Or you made God upset with you. It’s a toxic lie that I’ve seen told again and again.
Anne: And I think when it doesn’t work out like that, women feel betrayed by religion, right? They feel betrayed because they’re like, I did everything I should do. And in fact, I married a “godly man.” He checked all the boxes. And you told me if I did that, that I would have a peaceful, happy marriage. Instead, I’m abused. So explain to me how this works.
Betrayal By Religion
Anne: Wouldn’t it have been more useful for you to educate me about abuse? But since they don’t understand abuse, they can’t educate people about it.
Emily: It’s very, very sad. Abusers love it because it is a golden ticket for them to abuse all they want. And have power, authority and control over their victims all they want, and do it in the name of God. This is what I think blasphemy looks like, not just, you know, saying God’s name when you stub your toe. Anyway, side note. I’ve seen women confess they consider it a lack of responsibility.
So I’ve heard women say, I love it, because if something goes wrong in the family, it’s not my fault. It’s my husband’s fault. He’s the leader. And he messed up.
Anne: Hmm.
Emily: Yeah.
Anne: That’s interesting. I’ve never been that type of person. It might feel like safety to them. I think many women just feel like they can’t get what they want. And instead of them maybe going to law school, they’re like, Oh, I will marry an attorney. And I want to tell women the life you want, you can build for yourself. You can do what you want. You don’t need to find someone else to do it for you. And it’s a long process, and it’s a lot of hard work, but you are worth it.
The cool thing is, you’re the one that you can rely on, right? You can depend on yourself and show up for yourself, which is important. I think that’s what God wants for his daughters.
Deconstructing Fundamentalism
Anne: What do you think God has to say about fundamentalism and patriarchy?
Emily: As I began my, what I call deconstruction process. I didn’t deconstruct from Christianity, but deconstructed from fundamentalism. Realizing what Jesus looked like, what his character looked like. Not depending on what I have been taught all these years about what the Bible says about X, Y and Z. When I study the scriptures, I read them through the lens of the heart of Jesus.
When I started counseling, I joined a Bible study, and we were in the book of John. It was the best book I could have read. I started with it, because I think John gets to the heart and character of Jesus better than others.
And you see his tender care toward women. And how he broke these social norms again and again, whether it was his conversation with the Samaritan woman and his graciousness and kindness toward her, he did not shame her. He saw her as a victim, and he had such a love for her. And he empowered her as the first evangelist. He told her first that he was the Messiah. Then he told her to go and tell the town.
He didn’t shame her for the circumstances she was living in, but he actually gave her respect and honor by speaking to her. And we see this with the women who accompanied him in his ministry on earth. We see his respect again and again.
And so I encourage women to keep that in mind when you read scriptures. And realize that nowhere do we see Jesus encouraging one human to have power and control over another. That’s what fundamentalism teaches.
Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse Not Love
Emily: We don’t see it in Genesis either. When God created Adam and Eve, he gave them dominion over the earth together. We don’t see that he gave any kind of authority one human over another. So I don’t believe that was ever part of his plan. So whether it’s in Genesis or seeing God’s provision for women through the Old Testament. Society downcast, shunned and abused them. We see his provision for them in the Old Testament.
Then we see his actual personal interaction with women in the New Testament. And then we see the beginnings of the early church, and we see how women had positions in the early church of ministry. It’s like again and again, I look through these verses that fundamentalists want to pick out, that seem to support patriarchy.
And I say, let’s look at that through the whole picture. Let’s look at that through the whole lens and really see does God really encourage patriarchy over women? And I, I just don’t see it happening.
Anne: God loves us, loves us, and wants us to have peace. The point of righteousness, the point of being healthy for my listening friends who perhaps aren’t religious. So let’s just maybe call it the point of being healthy. Emotionally healthy is to have peace to bring happiness and joy into our lives. That’s the whole point. But when someone abuses you, you can’t feel that. No matter how healthy you are, because you’re constantly experiencing someone else’s bad choices.
And we all know that’s miserable. God wants us to be able to benefit from our own healthy and righteous choices.
Realizing The Suffering From Spiritual Abuse
Emily: Yes, and though he said we would endure pain, I believe he has so many good gifts for us here to enjoy. And I believe he cares about his daughters and the safety of his daughters. And he would never want his daughters to be submitting to abuse in the name of God.
Anne: Yeah, I think when women do that, they also feel perhaps control, right? Maybe if I do submit, my life will be good and things will turn out okay. Not knowing there’s no end to abuse. So as you submit to abuse, the abuser just gets what they want, and they continue to say, oh, this worked, so I can continue doing this. So submitting doesn’t solve the problem of abuse, right?
For women who are beginning to deconstruct their personal experiences and realize that they also suffered from spiritual abuse. That part of the reason why they were in so much fog is because it wasn’t just their husband. It was also the system of misogyny. One of the things that abusive men have stolen from women is their faith. So many women have experienced all this abuse. And so, just even talking about scripture or even attending a service or something is so traumatic.
So, for women who listen, who become traumatized by even the thought of reading scripture. Our hearts go out to you. And I want to leave a space for you if you’ve chosen to step away from your faith because of your trauma. We honor that here, knowing that’s a difficult situation. So for women in that situation, do you have comfort for them that perhaps where they are is fine, and God loves them anyway?
Finding A Safe Community
Anne: Or some, some type of comfort that you might offer women who have lost their faith due to abuse?
Emily: Yes, I agree. It’s okay to take a step back, whether that’s taking a step back from church. Because you’ve been in abusive churches your whole life, and instead you choose to find safe community elsewhere. I’ve stepped away from church for a few years, deconstruction, and eventually found a place that I have found safe so far. And resisted because fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. That can be pretty uncommon.
And so if you need to take a step back, there is safe community elsewhere. You can find healing in safe relationships outside the church. I dig into scripture because I had scripture used as a weapon against me. And I wanted to know what it really said. But there are books of the Bible that I have not opened in the past six years. Through my deconstruction process, from experiencing fundamentalism and patriarchy because they’re just too triggering.
And certain passages of scripture that I can’t do. I think God understands that, and I think he speaks to me in other ways. So whether you’re taking a step back only on certain things or just entirely, I think there’s so much healing in safe relationships. If you want to continue to pray, I think you can do that anywhere, and God sees your pain.
He sees the abuse you’ve been through, he’s weeping for you because of all the abuse you’ve been through. And I think he wants to heal that, but I think he also understands that space is sometimes needed. You need to step away from organized religion for a while to heal sometimes to find the heart of God.
Women Recovering From Fundamentalist and Spiritual Abuse Are Welcome At BTR.ORG
Anne: Yeah, and I’m so grateful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We’re interfaith. I am an active, devout member of my faith, attend church, read scriptures and stuff like that. But I respect all women for where they are. I want them to know that they’re welcome here. I’m so grateful for those of you who maybe aren’t of any faith or maybe there are atheists listening.
And I just want to thank you for giving us a space to share our experience in our way and define what that is. It is meant for us. Everyone is welcome here. I’m so grateful that BTR.ORG is such a robust community of women who all agree about abuse and need to support each other. It’s a strong community in that way. And so thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
Emily: Thank you. It’s been amazing. It’s been wonderful to meet you. Thank you for the opportunity.
This is NOT One of The Types of Physical Intimacy – Isabelle’s Story
May 10, 2022
Healthy physical intimacy implies just that – intimacy. However this is NOT one of the types of physical intimacy. In fact, even thought it’s common in marriage, it’s classified as domestic abuse.
To know if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse that are connected with intimacy, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: This is NOT One of The Types of Physical Intimacy
Anne: I have a woman named Isabelle on today’s podcast. She has been walking the path of healing from narcissistic abuse – which is an extreme lack of intimacy. She’s also suffered betrayal trauma for years. In February of 2019, just months after her three year divorce, she experienced a miraculous healing of chronic pelvic floor dysfunction.
She has experienced firsthand the healing power of creativity, and now works as an expressive arts facilitator. She feels called to share her creative talents and the wisdom she has gained from her journey, so that other women can experience hope and healing. Welcome Isabelle.
Isabelle: Thank you, Anne. It’s good to be here.
Anne: So let’s start with your story, Isabelle.
Early Childhood Trauma
Isabelle: The part of my story that led me to where I am today and being on this podcast is when I was six years old. My uncle abused me Christmas Eve at my grandparents’ home. And I’ve been walking through the healing from that, as well as the trauma from marital abuse and my adult life. I have realized that it was that event, that moment in time, that disrupted the healthy development of my mind, body, and spirit.
Also, I realized that I heard the lie in words and actions. That love is pain. That love and pain are synonymous, they go together. And I can see now how believing that set me up for not recognizing abuse in the future.
Anne: I’m so sorry about your experience.
Anne: When you get in a relationship with your husband, did you recognize his behaviors as abusive at first? Or were you still in that mindset that love hurts?
Isabelle: I think that was my, you know, core belief. It was just in there. I didn’t have to think about it. If that makes sense. I didn’t consciously think about it. That was part of it.
Marital Rape Is Difficult To Understand and Identify
Isabelle: My now former husband is a narcissist, so I did not recognize what he was doing as abuse. Because it seemed to me that he was my knight in shining armor. All his promises were to take care of me, that he adored and loved me. He was four years older than me. He would tell me that my innocence and my naivety were so attractive to him, and that he loved that about me. Additionally, he would teach me everything I needed to know.
I bought into all that, didn’t know about love bombing and gaslighting and all those things. I am only 18 and never seriously dated anyone, as a freshman in college.
Anne: When did you recognize his behaviors, perhaps not abusive at first? Or that you had divorced a narcissist. https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/ My guess is when things start happening that are harmful. You’re not thinking immediately this is an abuser. First, every woman goes through this. Maybe he’s stressed when you know that something is wrong.
You don’t know what it is and you may have been blaming yourself. What types of things did you do during that time? I’ll call it not comprehending that you’re in an abusive relationship, to try and establish safety and peace in your home.
Struggles With Birth Control
Isabelle: I am Catholic, and in our marriage birth control was an issue. I learned natural family planning. I learned to know my body to chart my cycles. He said that was the right thing for us to do. But he did not take any responsibility for it that a husband should. It was really on me. So we had four babies in a little over five years.
I was homeschooling the oldest, who would have been in kindergarten at that point. I can actually picture it right now, sitting here. The moment when I knew deep inside of me that something was wrong. It would have been after the fourth baby, I told him, I need a little break before we have another baby. I didn’t say I won’t have another baby.
I just said, not right now. I’m tired and my body is exhausted. I question now how manipulative and coercive. But those words weren’t what I would have used at the time. I probably would have said, wow, he’s persistent. He gets really angry and mean. If I would try to say no this particular night that I remember. He actually, after being persistent, was kind and said no. No, it’s okay. I understand. Sorry. We’ll just go to sleep. We’ll wait until you’re not fertile.
The First Injury
Isabelle: I remember going to sleep thinking wow, he gets it now, this is good and I’m feeling safe. Then I woke in the middle of the night to him forcing himself on me. I begged him to stop. Even when I told him he was hurting me, and that he had promised he wouldn’t, he just became more and more violent.
And I knew, because I knew my cycles, and I knew I was going to end up pregnant. I was. I told him I was pregnant, his response was, how could you let that happen?
Anne: I’m so sorry. Did events like this continue after this event? Then you have five kids after this. Did you try some common marriage advice that we get as Christians, but also just as society in terms of loving or serving or forgiving or any of those things? Talk about your experience with that, how that played out.
Isabelle: For years, I began to see then there was a very unsettling lack of compassion and disregard for me. Then I began to notice that for our children.
Anne: As this continued, did you know at the time what it was? Would you have defined it that way?
Isabelle: No, for a long time it was confusing. Because even when I would try to talk to him about it like, that really hurt me or why are you doing this? Now I know I would call that gaslighting and projection all those narcissistic manipulation tactics. But at the time he would tell me I dreamt it. No, that didn’t happen.
I would ask him. Why did you do that again? And he would get angry and tell me, you know, what a horrible wife I was to make up such lies. I must hate him to even think such a thing. I’d lay there thinking, but I know I didn’t dream it.
Isabelle: The other thing that I think is important to know is, because this went on for so long, I ended up after the eighth baby was born with postpartum depression. My OB kept saying, no, you were depressed while you were pregnant. Then it became treatment resistant depression, and then bipolar disorder. I was in and out of the hospital for depression and suicidal ideation.
Anne: Nobody throughout this time, including you, recognized you were an abuse victim?
This Lack of Intimacy Is Domestic Abuse
Isabelle: Eventually, they began to ask me if he was abusing me. Then after a few years in and out of the hospital, the doctors at the hospital started saying, “We know he’s abusing you.” We don’t know exactly how or what, you won’t tell us, but we know he’s abusing you and you do not have to go back home.
I had eight small children and married before I graduated from college. I’d never worked a day in my life. Where are we going to go? By this point, I took medications, I had hospital records, and he just kept telling me, “You won’t tell anyone, no one will believe you”. They know you’re the crazy one. And making threats like, if you tell anyone, I will take the money and find a woman and children who make me happy.
When I see articles now and listen to things about domestic violence, I believe it is true. In an abusive relationship, marital therapy can just further the trauma. Even if I would get up the courage in a session to try to say something that was happening, we would get in the car to leave, and he wouldn’t take me home for hours. The kids would be calling, where are you? Where are you? And he wouldn’t let me answer. He would just rage at me.
One of my psychiatrists used to call me the walking dead and say that I would never ever be better. Because I was catatonic and sick, no one thought I could get free of him. That I’d be able to keep my children, that my children wouldn’t be further harmed. It was very scary.
Narcissistic Abuse, Mental & Physical Pain
Isabelle: I can remember one night telling him, “What you’re doing to me has a name.” For anyone who knows a narcissist, you can imagine that narcissistic stare and smirk, you know, that glare. And he just sat there with his arms folded, glared at me and said, Yeah, what are you going to do about it?
And I thought, nothing. He knows. In that moment, I realized for all his telling me. He wasn’t doing the things I knew he was doing, and he didn’t mean it. Alternatively, I thought, no, he knows. He knows what he’s doing, and he knows I’m powerless to do anything about it. I’m going to die in this marriage.
Anne: Did that moment flip a switch for you?
Isabelle: It flipped a switch. It was at that point that I began insisting on things like separate beds. Part of my story is also that with the depression and what they called bipolar disorder, I had chronic physical pain.
Medication & Abuse
Isabelle: I was on medication after medication after, I mean just handfuls of medication three, four times a day, which did not help the walking dead effect. There would be nights when I would be really unconscious from the medications. In the morning, I woke up and knew he caused the pain raping me during the night.
At that point, I began telling him if he would stop that repeatedly. And then at one point I did tell him that if he had it with me again while I’m unconscious from my meds, I will have to go see an attorney. He didn’t speak to me for several days. And then other abuses became worse.
It did not get better. What ended up happening, I think then, is the more I began challenging him by speaking up, then he became more abusive, even in front of the kids. Then it began to affect my younger children.
Spiritual Abuse
Isabelle: So at this point, we had nine children. After the eighth baby and a few years of in and out of the hospital, I was in the hospital for a full month. They basically said, “We don’t know what else to do, and we know you can’t go home”. And they insisted I live with a relative for a while.
They told us that if I were to get pregnant again, the baby would not survive because of all the medications I was on, and probably die. A few weeks after I was out of the hospital, he visited me at a relative’s. He violated me me again and got me pregnant again. Telling me that he had heard God tell him that another baby would heal me.
Anne: Spiritual abuse.
Isabelle: Oh, there was lots. Yeah.
Anne: Was he a respected man in your church?
Isabelle: Yes.
Anne: Had you told clergy about this at all? What was their response? You may have been experiencing the effects of spiritual abuse.
Isabelle: I did. He insisted that we get marital counseling. Of course, for a while, he would only go to the priest. He was so good. I wasn’t raised Catholic. He was. So he said, well, I taught you faith. I’m the one who knows God. You don’t, you only know God because I told you about him. You can’t tell me that you know what God wants.
Marital Violation & Faith Communities
Anne: Did you convert to Catholicism? Was he part of that conversion process?
Isabelle: I was baptized Catholic and had the sacraments. But my family just went to church on Easter and Christmas, if that. I didn’t go and my parents divorced. He grew up in a home where they daily prayers, the rosary, and mass every week.
I was not raised Catholic in that way. He’s the one who I would say brought me back to the faith. It was when I began homeschooling my children and having children. Then I realized I needed to grow in my faith so I could teach them and pass the faith onto them.
Anne: How do you feel about your faith now from this experience?
Isabelle: I love my faith. It is God who rescued me and my children. I don’t know where I would be. I would be dead if it wasn’t for Jesus, and all the time after time that he saved me. It was my faith that got me through it. Just clinging, clinging to Jesus and the cross. I didn’t know what else to do.
Seeking Safety From This Type of Physical Abuse
Anne: So, talk about when you started really making your way to safety, after attempting the typical love and serve.
Isabelle: Yeah, when we started seeing priests and pastoral counselors, and then marital therapists. Many times the message, bottom line was, you don’t know men and their needs well. You need to learn more about what men need.
Meet your husband’s needs, and you expect too much of him. Things like that. I believed I could change him. That if I loved him more, if I was more self-sacrificing, maybe he would learn to be compassionate and self-sacrificing, which of course only fed into his addiction, narcissism, all of it.
Anne: Yeah, people don’t understand that actually makes it worse, because that’s what they want. They’re abusive on purpose to get what they want, and then you’re giving them what they want. They want more love and respect. You turning the other cheek is basically an abuser getting what he wants.
Isabelle: I said to him, but wait a minute, you said you needed more of this. Or you needed me to change and be more fun. So now I’m being more fun. And then he’d say, well, why would you think that’s what I wanted? That’s not what I meant. This is what I meant. I want you to be like this. And then I’d be like okay, now, wait a minute. So how do I be like that? You know, it was crazy making totally.
Escaping The Fog His Manipulation
Anne: Mine told me he wanted me to stop asking questions. One night I decided I wasn’t going to say anything except for just that. Yes or no, and kind of respond to what he was saying. Then he got mad at me for being cold. So I was like, Oh, great. It’s just a no win situation. Right.
Isabelle: After the ninth baby was born and I survived a suicide attempt, I ended up with anorexia. My therapist, of course, recognized that what I was doing. I was trying to kill myself without actually killing myself, and forced me into treatment. I was then in eating disorder treatment.
Hearing stories from other women, meeting other therapists and other people, telling little bits of my story, and seeing how people reacted, this is not normal. I began to get some education on domestic violence and abuse. And our youngest daughter ended up with anorexia. When she was only eight years old. She stopped eating when she was seven. You know, you asked before if that was the moment when I snapped and woke up.
Anne: I wouldn’t say I woke up. It’s not like you were in denial or anything. It wasn’t your fault. It was just you couldn’t comprehend it for whatever reason. All victims go through that.
Isabelle: For me, the analogy of almost being asleep works in my case because of the depression and the medications. I mean, the medications just had me in a fog.
Anne: Yeah, and I think that’s the perfect word to describe it. The fog of abuse. Right? Even if you’re not on medication, it’s like a fog, and coming out of it is like coming out of a fog.
Trying To Protect The Children
Isabelle: Yeah, you’re right. That is the better word. His abuse towards my youngest became very physical and overt. He was very covert about a lot. And my eating disorder brought a lot more abuse from him. Also right out into the kitchen, because he would, in front of the kids, plate my food. Then tell me I had to be obedient and eat my food, and it got pretty nasty sometimes.
I was not taking it so passively anymore. But when I saw him, I can remember one particular occasion when she tried to run from the table and not eat. He chased her, and she was about 20 pounds underweight at the time, and she was only eight years old.
She was tiny, and he grabbed her by the ankles on the steps and pulled her down the steps onto the hardwood floor. I jumped between them and grabbed her. In that moment, I remember thinking, I have to protect my child. It wasn’t about me. It was about protecting my children. Then I started talking to my therapist about, I think we need to get safe.
I think we need to get out of here. He’s not ever going to change, is he? At some point in there, she then helped me see that the way he treats my child was exactly the way he treats me. It was okay to say, I won’t be treated this way anymore either.
Intersection Of Abuse and Addiction
Anne: Talk about the intersection of abuse and addiction. Did you recognize the abuse first or a addiction first? Can you talk about things like exploitative materials use and other things that you observed?
Isabelle: I did not observe any of that, the addiction I did. Not the exploitative materials. We had therapists say, for years, you know, I think he’s viewing it. I would say, no, he wouldn’t do that. That’s what drove me to start looking at other options and that I needed a divorce.
Anne: Making your way to safety. Actual safety, not the love, serve, forgive, kind of like pseudo safety. But actually starting to make your way to actual safety. What did that look like for you?
Isabelle: First, I tried an in-house separation. Let’s try co parenting, living in the same home, and co parenting, but no intimacy of any kind in separate bedrooms. He could not respect that. Even when I was sleeping in my girl’s room, he would just come in there, so that wasn’t working.
When my youngest was ill with anorexia, I found a priest who listened. He sent me the United States Bishop’s document on domestic violence. It was reading that shifted the way I was seeing and thinking about what was going on in my home and in my marriage.
God Does Not Want You To Endure This Type of Physical Non-Intimacy
Anne: Can you talk about that document? Since I’m not Catholic, I’m not familiar with it. What about it shifted your view? And the reason I ask is because so many of the women who listen to this podcast are religious. They may not necessarily be Catholic, but they feel bound by covenants or promises or their vows. I wonder if what helped you might also help them.
Isabelle: I took my vow and my covenant seriously. The sacramental nature of my marriage was of the utmost importance to me. I mean, I truly believed my vocation was marriage. So I needed to be self-sacrificing for my husband and children. What helped me in that document was that the Bishops talked about how God does not want anyone to be abused.
There’s a difference between making a sacrifice for your husband and when husbands are being abusive. Not only is he harming me, but also because it was also harming my children. Before, he became physically abusive to them, just because their mom was being harmed. That he was also harming himself. My vocation as a wife was that the spouse is what I’m supposed to do and walk the journey to heaven together. Help each other get to heaven, and abuse in a home is not getting anyone to heaven.
The bishops go on to say that a wife has not only the right to do what it takes to get herself and her children safe, but also the responsibility. I began to see what was going on from a different perspective. As much as I wanted a loving, healthy marriage. That’s not what we had.
Marriage Covenants Broken By Abuse
Isabelle: Although marriage is good, the good and the safety and salvation of our souls are greater.
Anne: I try to talk to women about that all the time. I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We marry in the temple, and we take our temple covenants very seriously, and we want an eternal marriage. I talk a lot about what the bible says about divorce and marriage.
It’s the same thing there. You could say, I’m not going to divorce, because I want an eternal marriage, and I made these covenants. But those covenants are just with God. They’re not just with God, but with the other person. But if the other person is not worthy of those covenants, you don’t have an eternal marriage. So all you’re sacrificing for your eternal marriage is in vain.
Isabelle: Right, and when this priest helped me look at the history, he began to use words like that to me. The fact that, do you understand, he broke the covenant.
There was no more covenant, no more sacredness. There was no more sanctity. What he did was evil and wrong. To see that I was not breaking the covenant, it had already been broken. Abuse breaks the covenant. There was no more covenant to protect. I needed to protect myself and my children.
Because of my personality type, knowing that doing this really hard thing of asking for a divorce was in a sense also for his good, and his protection by removing myself and the children. I needed to teach my children how to set boundaries as well.
Emotional and Psychological Abuse
Anne: What ruined the marriage was the abuse. So you experienced all types of abuse. I just want you to pretend. I know this is impossible, but. Yeah, just for a minute, to pretend that you had only experienced the psychological, the lies, the infidelity, the exploitative materials use, the putting you down, the psychological and emotional abuse.
Now, it is obvious to you that you had to do something. Because your physical self was in danger. If you can imagine now, being away from it, just the psychological and emotional abuse, would you say your soul was in just as much danger? I don’t want to say that, because so many of our listeners, that is what they’re experiencing, and it’s like a horror show.
Like with me, I almost wanted, and he did end up physically hurting me in the end. But I almost wanted him to punch me, because I thought, if he punches me, then I’ll have proof. Then I’ll know that this is what’s happening. But the emotional and psychological abuse was so confusing, and it’s so difficult to track.
I just want to let women know, don’t wait until you’re experiencing ongoing abuse. You’re already severely emotionally and psychologically abused.
Isabelle: I agree with everything you just said, the emotional, psychological, and for me the spiritual abuse also. I mean, it’s soul murder. I believe we are integrated mind, body, and spirit. Abuse of one of those, even if he’s not raping or punching. It’s abusing your person, your personhood.
It’s Not Intimacy It’s Physical Abuse
Isabelle: When I went to a support group. One woman there said it happened to her. So I thought okay, well if she said it, then I guess I can say it too.
I wasn’t going to be the only one in the room to say it, but I still said, but he’s never been physically abusive. I did that for a couple of years. The counselors there would look at me and say rape is physical abuse, but it took me a few years to think of what he was doing to me as physical abuse.
Anne: We get it. You’re in the right place. Everybody listening right now understands what you’re saying. Because we’ve all been through, not that exact scenario, but something similar to that. Where we didn’t know what to call it.
I worry right now about so many victims who want to be positive and save their marriages. Instead of saying the word abuse, they say things like he struggles. Or he has challenges, or he’s doing so well considering he had an abusive upbringing. Instead of saying he’s abusing me, I’m abused.
Especially in addiction circles, so many C-SATs say well, expect relapses, and what they’re asking victims to do is tolerate ongoing abuse rather than get to safety. It’s alarming, which is part of why I started this podcast. But when I started the podcast, God told me to start it. I didn’t understand all these things. Listeners who have listened to me from the beginning can say I didn’t know that. But I know it now, and I now know I don’t know what I don’t know.
Setting Boundaries When Your Husband Refuses True Intimacy
Anne: Can you talk about how that worsened your situation?
Isabelle: Yes. I first went to attorneys for a legal separation. Being Catholic, I thought I couldn’t get a divorce, but kids and I need to get out of here. They said, Oh no, you’re being abused. Your children are being abused. You need a divorce if you’re going to be really safe. And even Catholic attorneys told me that you need a divorce. I didn’t tell anyone, even when I hired my first attorney. The first question I asked him was, Will I ever have to talk about things that went on between me and me to get a divorce?
Will I have to prove anything? He said oh, no, it’s a no fault state. Anybody can get a divorce. You don’t like that he snores, you can get a divorce. Not quite true. Because I told him, I said, no one will believe me. They will believe him. So I filed for the divorce, and I even told my former husband, when I told him I had filed for the divorce, we can just work this out.
Finding Safety From Physical Non-Intimacy
Anne: Was he shocked when you told him?
Isabelle: He said he was. He sure acted like he was, which I had already told him a few months before that I had seen an attorney about a legal separation. He threatened me that if he heard the words separation, divorce or attorneys come out of my mouth again, he was taking everything we owned and leaving me and the kids. And no one could ever make him pay child support or anything.
Anne: So you actually do it amid his threats. And my guess is he was kind of shocked. Well, that would be my guess.
Isabelle: Yeah. I realized that I can be certain that he probably never told me the truth about anything. That everything that even sounded like truth had some sort of distortion. I’d stay in that. That helps me stop trying to figure it out. Because you can make yourself crazy trying to figure them out. I realized I can’t go in his head.
What was funny was that I told him, we don’t have to talk about anything. Nobody has to know the things that went on. And even at that point, I was still willing to work out shared parenting, and I was trying to be very, very cooperative and make it simple.
Living Together & Escalating Abuse
Isabelle: We had to live together for a few weeks after I filed. He wouldn’t move out. It got to the point where it was just scary. It was very, very scary. And he left the divorce papers in the envelope with a crucifix in the middle of the kitchen counter. Every time I moved them into his office, he’d put them back and say, if you didn’t want to look at this, if you didn’t want the kids to see it, you shouldn’t have done it, take it back.
You can still end this. He started following me around the house and trapping me in closets, unlocking the bathroom door and coming in when I was in the shower and not letting me out. It got to the point where I was packing up a bag for myself and my youngest, and leaving the house early in the morning and trying to hide.
Moving around town, library, Starbucks, wherever I had to go to try and hide. So finally, after a night of him trapping me in a laundry room for hours, he started with tears in the eyes saying. You know, our problem is that you just don’t want to admit the ways you’ve hurt me. And if you could just admit you haven’t been the perfect wife and that you’ve hurt me, maybe we could work on getting some change. This is after being trapped for two hours.
An Injury to Intimacy Is Never OK
Isabelle: I said that was not true, that I always admitted I was not a good wife. But that nothing I had failed to do or done could equal the hurt of him raping me. And he looked at me and said, “There you go, bringing that up again. When will you get over it?” And we didn’t know it, but our teenage daughter heard that part of the conversation.
The next day, um, my attorney was able to get him out of the house. He hadn’t hired an attorney yet, and was forced to hire an attorney. The first thing he did was tell his attorney that I was crazy, delusional, and mentally ill, and that I would start saying all these things. He told her all the things I would say, and that they were all lies, and that everyone knew that he was a good Catholic man, husband and father.
And if they listened to me, they would think he was a monster. They all knew that wasn’t true, that I was the crazy one. Then, from the beginning, that’s how I was. And I had that to disprove. Not only did I have to prove what he had done, I don’t care if anybody ever knows, now I had to prove it. I had to disprove that I was a delusional liar.
Marital Laws & Court Challenges
Isabelle: In eight states in our country, this is not a crime. You cannot charge your spouse with a crime if he abuses you in this way. There are spousal exemption laws.
Anne: And you’re living in one of these states at the time?
Isabelle: Yes. I had people within the court system who immediately, when they heard that, I thought he had done this, just my thinking that was evidence that I was a liar. Because I was told it’s impossible. A husband can’t rape his wife. You’re lying.
Anne: My ecclesiastical leader accused me of being abusive. The proof he had was that I said my husband was abusive. A supportive and nurturing wife does not claim her husband is abusive. So I get that. So here you are. What happened next?
Isabelle: My attorney gets off the phone with his attorney, their first meeting, and calls me and says, “We have to meet right now.” You’ll have to tell me the story. He’s gone out there and said you’re going to say A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. Well, you have to tell me what happened. Now he’s made it the issue. What I had said nobody ever needed to know, he turned it into the whole issue.
It took over three years, several attorneys, guardian ad litem, custody evaluator, further trauma. The people appointed within the court, who were supposed to protect the children, further traumatized them. I know exactly what you meant when you said that, you know, you would wish he would hit you.
Anne: I was finally able to free myself from abuse, and everyone can learn how in Betrayal Trauma Workshop.
Coming Out Of The Fog Of This Type of Coercion
Isabelle: No one with the system believed what he had done was abuse or physical abuse. And the courts didn’t seem to care about emotional and psychological abuse. Not of me, not of my children. It didn’t matter, in the course of the divorce, that two children needed hospitalization for suicidal ideation. And Children’s Services were notified several times during his parenting time. None of that mattered.
It wasn’t until near the end, going to trial, and he actually, in front of three older children, bit my youngest child hard enough that there was still a bite mark when she got home to me. I was able to get her to the guardian ad litem so she could see the evidence. And then she had to stop saying that the children and I lied, that we were the liars. We still went to trial.
I can see now, and even at the time, there were moments of almost despair, but there were also moments when I could see that God was at work, and that his timing is perfect, and he knows the whole story. He can see it all. And we have tunnel vision. In the end, it had to take that long and get to that point. Because now my children don’t have to see him unless they want to. The attorneys, everyone said that that is miraculous.
Anne: My kids felt the same way when we went through it. Co-parenting with a narcissist is unbearable.They didn’t want to have to go when they didn’t want to. But they were forced to go and they hated it.
Post-Divorce Reflections
Isabelle: In the end, it all worked out beyond what anyone could imagine. The safety and peace that we have now. Before, I lived in an absolute nightmare. Whether I was awake or asleep, it was just a nightmare. And now there’s days when I walk around and I’m like, wait a minute, am I dreaming? Am I awake? It’s like, is this real?
Anne: Do you feel like, I feel like sometimes. Maybe this is just a terrible thing to say, but when I’m at church, and the other women at church are talking about like the HOA. And how like they charge them an extra $25 at the HOA, just stuff like that, that they’re concerned about. I’m smiling and thinking, oh you poor women who are upset about the HOA.
Oh, who cares about the HOA? I don’t know if that’s how you feel sometimes. Oh, I’m so blessed and life is so good that these little things aren’t a big deal. I’m sure even with the safety that you feel, there are still things happening. Are you completely away from him now?
Isabelle: No, not completely away in a different home now.
Chronic Pelvic Floor Dysfunction & PTSD
Isabelle: So do you know of chronic pelvic floor dysfunction? Do I need to describe what that is?
Anne: Yeah, you should describe it. I don’t know. And then I’m sure some other listeners don’t know. But I’m guessing it has something to do with being repeatedly abused, and having nine kids.
Isabelle: For years, I had debilitating physical pain. Sometimes the pain was all over my entire body. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, herniated discs, and all kinds of back diagnosis. Tested for Lupus repeatedly, and just thrown on lots and lots of meds to try this and try that. Nothing worked. Years and years of physical therapy.
It wasn’t until he was forced to move out of the marital residence that all of a sudden PTSD symptoms popped up. I guess that’s because when you’re actually still being abused, it’s not considered PTSD.
Anne: No, it’s still trauma, constant trauma. Women living with their abuser may say things like, I got triggered today. I need to know how to deal with the triggers. I’m thinking no, you are triggered because you’re still in abuse.
Isabelle: Yeah, this was like flashbacks and PTSD nightmares, and that all started. The pain I experienced was primarily in my pelvic area, my hips, my back, and it would shoot down my legs. And so it began to trigger, like, memories of the abuse that I didn’t even have a conscious memory of. I would start to see them, feel them, relive them. So now the pain, I’m living in this chronic pain, is triggering all these memories.
Consequences Of These Injuries
Isabelle: There were moments, even driving the car, when I suddenly heard screaming, Get off of me! It became a real problem in the divorce case, because it looked like I was crazy to people who didn’t believe I had been traumatized. Why did I have PTSD now? Why were my kids saying I was crying all the time and not able to sleep?
It was very scary, because they used it to try and threaten to take the kids from me. Well, if you’re not well, you know, the kids shouldn’t be living with you. I ended up seeing a new physical therapist, a young woman who, after only treating me a few times for my back pain, asked me if she could ask me a personal question. She asked me if I’d ever been abused. And of course I said why? Why would you even ask that?
She said that first of all, she could feel fear. She could feel fear when she touched me. And she said those muscles in a woman clench and tighten like that because they’re trying to protect. That’s what they do, is protect that part of your body. And she said what you need is an internal pelvic floor therapist. This isn’t a back problem, it’s your internal muscles, it’s your pelvic floor muscles.
It took me a long time to get up the courage to go see someone, and I went through a few years, doctors who specialized in chronic pelvic floor pain, an internal physical floor therapist, Botox injections where they put me to sleep and did 10 needles into my pelvic floor.
Chronic Pain Due To Domestic Abuse
Isabelle: Nothing worked. It got to the point where they all said, “Look until you’re divorced and you go through years of EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) therapy.” And get over the PTSD. We can’t do anything more for the pelvic pain, and one of them was ready to testify at my divorce trial that she’d never work. She’ll never be healed from this. Finally, the divorce gets done.
One of the things that I was using to try and cope with the pain and the flashbacks from the pain was that my therapist had made me Catholic guided visualizations and muscle relaxation recordings. Progressive muscle relaxation takes you through each of the parts of your body and has you relax those muscles.
Anne: Oh, yeah, the meditations have that in every one of the meditations. Yeah, in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. That works so well.
Isabelle: And she added to it having Jesus standing there. Touching me, and feeling his warmth and healing power, relaxing my muscles and his tenderness. She would move into him, touching my back, my abdomen, and my pelvic floor muscles, relaxing in the warmth of his healing. On that day, on that night, lying there in my bed, I started sobbing and said, Jesus, I’m so tired. I can’t keep just imagining you touching me and healing me. I can’t do this. I’m so tired.
Miraculous Healing
Isabelle: Immediately this warmth and this comforting, I don’t know, I want to call it a heaviness, but not the heaviness I knew of, sadness and suffocation. This felt like being held tightly, warmth and peace. And I felt those muscles just give, like just relax. And they hadn’t relaxed in 20 some years. I actually fell asleep lying on my back, and I slept through the night.
I woke up and thought, Oh Jesus, you gave me a good night’s sleep. Thank you. I thought that was the miracle. I had slept through the night without any nightmares. He gave me a good night’s sleep. Thank you. I got up and started getting the children ready for school. When I bent down in the kitchen to pick something up, I just stood up, I didn’t have to hold on to the counter.
Oh my gosh, something’s wrong. Where’s my pain? Where’s my pain? It’s never come back.
Life After Healing
Isabelle: After about a month of no pain, I went back to the internal pelvic floor therapist and asked her to please do an exam, and feel those muscles and see where they healed.
She had tears in her eyes, and she said, “I cannot explain it”. She said, “I would expect more dysfunction in your pelvic floor”. Just for being the age you are, having the number of kids you do, never exercising, and they’re healed. She said, they are soft. She told me, they used to feel like hard, dry clay.
And it was so painful, because I would just begin to have flashbacks and I have no pain. And when He healed the physical pain. It healed the PTSD. I no longer take any medications of any kind. There’s no depression. There’s no bipolar. It was all abuse. It was all the effects of abuse.
Anne: That is an amazing story. I’m so grateful that you shared it.
Reflections on Miracles
Anne: I’ve been thinking about miracles a lot lately. Like, big miracles. There are things in my life that I want to see a big miracle for. And it’s interesting to me that you weren’t necessarily looking for a big miracle, you just wanted to relax in that moment. I wrote down all the big miracles that I would like to see.
And I wrote them on a piece of paper and said a prayer. I said, God, I can’t do the loaves and the fishes or bring Lazarus back to life or anything like that. I’ve tried those things, and I’m not spiritual enough or capable. I said, these are the things I would like to see, but I’m gonna leave it up to you.
I put it in a drawer, and I’ve just left it there. But hearing your story gives me hope, not necessarily for the miracles I want, but to surrender my will and my life to God and let him bring to pass the miracles that he sees fit. I’m so grateful to hear your story. That’s the miracle that he bestowed on you, in addition to all the tiny miracles that both of us probably see every day and maybe don’t recognize.
Faith & Miracles
Isabelle: You know, that’s when you talked about here other women and the things they’re worried about and complaining about. I don’t worry anymore. Like that, to me, is a miracle. I have seen what God can do, what He saved us from, little miracle, big miracle. What do I have to worry about? What will He not take care of when I trust Him?
Now I see miracles all the time, everything. I think about how true it is that when you have seen the deepest, blackest darkness, then the light’s so beautiful and brilliant. Sometimes I just say to Him, God, when are the miracles going to stop? You don’t have to give me anymore. You’re overwhelming me. But I think it’s because we’ve seen the darkness that now is what other people miss. Sometimes, I don’t miss it anymore because I know what it’s like on the other side.
Anne: Yeah. And I’m grateful to talk to you today, because I think I’ve been. I don’t know if angry is the right word, probably resentful, frustrated, but there are these prayers I’ve been praying. That would take a huge miracle. I mean, like, he’s answering the little prayers. Like, just over this week, we got to this camp spot, and it didn’t work out. And I told my kids, pray we’ll find a better camp spot.
We drove up, and there was a great camp spot. I had everybody pray and be grateful. So I’m like, okay, he’s answering all these little prayers, and these big ones aren’t happening.
Prayers
Isabelle: Do you know what, though? Do you think you could look and see if the big ones are, but they’re not happening in one big shocking moment?
Anne: That’s what prompted me to write them down. I recognized that that part of my problem is that I have so much faith. When I pray, I know God can do things, he doesn’t do them, and I know they’re good. It’s not like I’m praying.
Isabelle: To win the lottery or just so we can go buy some new clothes and cars.
Anne: Although that would be great. I know these would be good things, and they don’t happen. I get like, why?
You’re God, you can do anything. It feels like it’s purposefully withholding or something. I recognize all the little ones. So I decided, I’m just going to write these down. These are the things I’m frustrated about. I’m going to put them in a box, and I’m going to pray about it.
I’m going to give it to him. Since then, I’ve been praying that my desires and my will are in line with his, so that I can see the miracles he wants to give me. The ones that he decides this is the right thing for you. I can recognize that and live in gratitude, rather than just being like frustrated all the time. Like why isn’t this happening?
Isabelle: Yeah, I think that’s huge. I would pray when I was in all that pain, especially in the divorce, because I knew they could use it to take the kids from me. On top of that, the pain and the flashbacks, it was like, it was so scary.
Trusting God’s Timing
Isabelle: And I would pray and say, why, I know you can do miracles. If you can heal me with one word, why are you not healing this? Part of it was his timing, like he knew the right timing for it. My pelvic floor therapist, you know, she said, I always knew God would heal you. But I thought it would take a lot of time, and we’d have to work hard at it.
Anne: The other thing I think is fascinating is that He can heal you instantly, and He did. Why not during the divorce proceedings, where you’re in so much pain logically speaking with our mortal minds? That’s a good time to heal you, because then you may have been more confident, stronger, or less emotional.
Isabelle: This is what I learned. I learned to trust in him, that he knows better than I do, and that even in the horrible physical and emotional pain, with Jesus with me, I can do all things. People have said you were unstoppable. You were absolutely, how did you do it? It was not humanly possible. And so now I can witness to people that with Jesus, if you rely on Jesus. You can, you can do all things through him, you can, and I did it.
Witnessing God’s Love
Isabelle: It’s hard for me to say I did it, probably the first time I have actually said I did it out loud. Because it’s hard for me to take any credit for it. But I could not have done it alone. The thing is, people hear my story. And the people I know who walked my story with me are like, there’s no way it’s not humanly possible. God was with you, because no one could do that alone.
Anne: I’m proud and honored to hear your story, especially at a time like this in my particular life, where I hope and pray for miracles that I’m not necessarily seeing yet or maybe ever, but to know that they do happen. And the angels are with us, and that God loves us.
I want all our listeners praying for miracles to know that even though you might not recognize it right now, or you might not see it. But that it will happen or something like it. I prayed for a miracle in 2015. Then a few months later, my ex was actually arrested. Which is not what I thought the miracle would look like. But that’s what it looked like for me.
Isabelle: Yeah, that may be because our human sight is short sighted. When we think our prayer only has one way that it could possibly be answered. God’s up there saying, Oh no, you know what? I can see a hundred possibilities for answering that prayer.
Message to Women in Similar Situations
Isabelle: He does it in a way that is not what we thought. But it is always coming back to the fact that he is love. He is love, nothing but love. Sometimes, after being abused by a narcissist, it’s incomprehensible. Most of the time, to see how God loves. It’s so different. Just trusting in that love, and he only wants what’s good for us.
Anne: Isabelle, I appreciate your faith and your testimony today, and your willingness to share such a vulnerable story. I know so many other women are going through similar things, and I hope that through listening to this podcast, they come away with a few things. Number one, that God loves them and that they have not been abandoned.
If they hold on to God’s love and know that they don’t deserve to be abused and harmed. Even if it’s just psychologically. Even if it’s just, I put just in air quotes, emotional abuse, even if it’s just that their husband is viewing this stuff, which is a gateway to harm and abuse. They can make their way to safety, because they deserve to be absolutely adored and loved, like God loves them.
I hope that women can take that with them today, knowing that through your story, they can know that God loves them too. Just as much as He loves you and continues to love you.
Created for Love, Not Abuse
Isabelle: And he made us us, we were created by love for love, and we are loved not for abuse. We’re not created for abuse.
Anne: And abuse is Satan, right? Satan’s tool. And women who have been in our situation, I feel like we’ve looked in the eyes of evil. We’ve seen evil. We’ve had it in our home thank you. Thank you so much for your time, Isabelle.
Isabelle: Thank you. Thank you.
Educating Women on Abuse
Anne: The reason I want to talk about and educate women about verbal abuse or emotional abuse is because if they know about infidelity, usually women focus on that. Which is a good thing to focus on, but they also don’t realize how they’re psychologically or emotionally abused. If they’re educated about it, they can make good decisions.
I think as women learn more about psychological, verbal, emotional, and spiritual abuse, they can better assess the safety of their situation. For women afraid of the word abuse, or they’re thinking, oh, I don’t want to go down this road because I don’t want to get divorced. If you put your safety first, and if you think I will learn about what it means to be safe, then you will make your way to a better place, whatever that is.
Some of you in your study of emotional abuse might realize that your husband is not emotionally abusive in these ways. And that can put your mind at ease and comfort your heart. Learning about it is not the problem.
The abuse in itself is the problem. I always want you to remember that.
How to Use Art Therapy For Trauma – Corrine’s Story
May 03, 2022
Many victims of emotional and psychological abuse wonder if art therapy for trauma can help with symptoms. Here’s what you need to know.
If you relate, you may wonder if you are experiencing emotional abuse. Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? See if you’re suffering from this type of trauma by taking our free emotional abuse quiz.
Anne: You used your art as therapy for the trauma you experienced when you discovered your husband’s sexual addiction. How did you find out?
Corrine: It was kind of baptism by fire. I got married, only to find out that my husband had a lot of issues that I wasn’t aware of. It involved lying, it involved covering things up. A lot of unhealthy things that were very hurtful and led to a lot of trauma, where I would put up walls, isolate myself even further, and of course nothing would get solved. It’s very, very dysfunctional. But I didn’t know how this led to my shopping, eating, anger, not healthy cycles.
Anne: Yeah, when we met, you had been processing your betrayal trauma through the context of codependency.
Things had to change from codependency
Anne: Can you tell me how you thought of them in the context of codependency, and then how you’re feeling now about the abuse model. Since we have discussed weaponized codependency. How has it been like transitioning to thinking about his addiction as an abuse issue?
Corrine: So, I noticed a cycle of betrayal that resulted in trauma, this unseen wound, which led to PTSD symptoms within myself, which created a wall within myself, so I could not receive or give love. I became selective in who I would talk with, like I would function, and talk to people, but I wouldn’t let people in. I was good at doing what was expected, getting along, making things smooth, but I was not good at being personal and talking to people in a real way.
Anne: So, let me see if I can restate. Were you resisting the abuse, trying to keep yourself safe? And since you weren’t aware that you were being abused, It felt like hiding yourself in that way. It made you a little safer.
Corrine: Yeah, exactly. And so I became very non-authentic for a long time, and it hurt me. It hurt my art. Just a few years ago, it kind of came to a head. It really hit me that things had to change. Obviously, we can only change ourselves. And when I did that, I started healing.
Anne: We’ve had women on who talk about songs about healing from trauma, but not someone who uses art. So as you focused on your own healing. What kinds of breakthroughs have you seen with art therapy for trauma, and how have these breakthroughs played out?
Art Therapy for trauma: Breakthroughs in Healing
Corrinne: I remember one night coming back from a class, and I knew I had to be honest with myself. Because I didn’t feel safe. I had shut down my feelings. I had shut down certain memories as a protective measure. And so I was able to get really honest and have that breakthrough, even though it was so difficult. One of the best things I learned was that I needed to trust them to be themselves. It was vital for them to have a chance to fail or succeed.
Anne: Yeah, I talk about this in my Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. Which is the workshop I developed to help women see their husband’s true character, observe from a safe distance, and see who he really is. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop teaches women thought strategies, communication strategies, and boundaries strategies. To help keep themselves safe.
That’s such an interesting place that you came to. Probably a lot of listeners are thinking that’s so ironic that she would learn to trust someone who is untrustworthy, but what you’re trusting is that what he’s showing you is who he really is.
Corrine: The way I think of it is, I trust them to be them, themselves. It leads me to say, okay, I know this person. I know what they’ve done before, and I trust them to be themselves. I trust me to be me. To expect anything different is counterproductive. And then that was a step up for me.
Anne: So for me, I would say, If I’m going to trust my ex-husband to be himself, then I know I can’t trust him.
Corrine: Yeah, yeah.
Trust & Boundaries
Anne: If I trust him to be himself, I know I need to set boundaries around this. Because I don’t want the chaos to come into my home.
Corrine: Because that’s what they’ve shown us, right? Kind of try to narrow this down. The first and foremost thing is that we cannot control other people. We can show them. I think that’s more effective than telling anyone what we want them to do. They have choices that they can make. We can set boundaries. For example, as a protective measure, I only make food for the people who are kind to me.
So it’s best if I focus on myself, my choices, my healing, and to be lovingly honest with myself. In fact, just this week, I had to get honest with myself so that I can achieve what I want.
Anne: So let’s talk about your art, because I love it. Your paintings were so beautiful. I want to know about your exhibit. I want to talk about the different ways women can process it, like art therapy for trauma, the creative ways they can express themselves.
Corrine: Oh, awesome. I love this.
Art therapy for trauma: The Power of Creative Expression
Corrine: As far as the exhibit goes, that is something that resulted from when this unseen wound was discovered. When I came clean about my marriage situation and told the entire story on Facebook. I became public with it and gave up the complete secrecy of it all. And I saw this weight lift off myself from this dark space into this space of light, and hope to continue to move forward in a positive way.
Because of that, I started painting, and saw it from a whole different perspective. It’s a visual perspective, not a word, a language. So it’s more about feelings. It’s about your heart and your head being engaged, instead of just logic or emotion separately. When I started this series, gathering artists who also told their story, their resurrection, in a way. Because when you let go of all that, you become essentially a whole new person. And so you can realize that you are a powerful being, that you can move forward
As far as the idea of using art therapy for trauma, to recover from betrayal. Seriously, it’s one of the most powerful things. You can give a child some artwork supplies, and you can say tell me how you feel. They may not have the language to do it, but they can portray how they’re feeling. It doesn’t matter that this piece of art has not been put in a museum, you can feel how they’re feeling just by looking at it. And you can get a good picture, a story. Even though they don’t have the language to tell you everything.
Processing Trauma Without words
Corrine: You can do betrayal meditations and get really centered, and then you can have an image in your mind that you can put on paper, canvas or in clay. And start to understand yourself even better. Where you’re coming from and what you need to learn to progress. A lot of people have had breakthroughs just by doing that.
Anne: Yeah, the idea that you could process trauma without talking is such a relief to me. That’s exactly why I wrote the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. Because there are only so many words. Sometimes I couldn’t get through to my trauma through my writing, which is my creative outlet. So those meditations helped me deep down into my feelings and body. You can learn more by clicking that link. There are so many ways to process our trauma without speaking, like art therapy for trauma.
Corrine: It’s not about displaying something. It’s about an emotion. When you find a medium that is yours, this may require getting a little messy, trying some different things. And not just a medium, but a style that is yours. Then it won’t feel awkward, and you won’t have to feel like you’re trying so hard. If it’s painting, one thing you can do is look at different painters, maybe color field painters, maybe different line qualities. I was able to teach a class. We talked about, is there a feeling in this picture? It’s just color blocks.
But there was this resonance, this vibrancy to it, and you could feel it. And because of that, it was a good piece of art. It wasn’t, oh look, it looks like a person. That’s what a camera is for.
Find a way that works for you
Corrine: What we tried to focus on was, how does it feel? And it’s important when you’re trying to heal somehow to figure out how you’re actually feeling.
Anne: Yeah, you talked about that at the beginning, getting honest with yourself to know how you’re feeling and why. We have exercises like that in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, which helps women get in touch with their feelings. Art is another way to do that. I actually garden, and that’s one way that helps me process my feelings, working with dirt. There are so many ways to process these emotions.
Corrine: The important thing is to find a solution that will support you, and you can actually heal and move forward.
that works for you. Whether it’s art therapy for trauma, or some other way. Like I mentioned in this episode, we have the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop that will help you discover what will work for you.
Well, Corrine, thank you so much. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts today.
Here’s How To Help Your Daughter In An Abusive Relationship
Apr 26, 2022
If you want to help your daughter in an abusive relationship, Anne’s mother and sister share how they could have helped her.
If you feel like this emotional abuse quiz could help her, have her take this free emotional abuse quiz. Discover if she is experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse.
1. Help Your Daughter Identify The Abuse
“I described my husband’s behavior, physically intimidating me, yelling in my face, manipulating me, gaslighting me, and unsafe behavior by him. But even then, I didn’t realize I was in an abusive relationship.”
Tragically, emotional abuse is difficult to identify for both victims and their support systems. As family and friends honestly and authentically communicate with the victim about their concerns, victims may identify the abuse quicker and take appropriate actions to get to safety.
2. Help Your Daughter In An Abusive Relationship By Taking Her Seriously
When family and friends minimize the abuse, they are re-traumatizing victims.
Anne’s sister shared, “Anne would call and say there’d been a fight. I would often say things like: everyone has problems in their marriage, or I’d try to downplay it. I was trying to normalize maybe what had happened or relate to it in some way. But that only made things worse for her.”
Minimizing Abuse Looks Like This
Wondering what forms the minimization of abuse takes? Here are some things that family and friends may say minimize and/or justify abuse:
Everyone has their problems
What did you do to make him act like that?
Are you sure you’re not exaggerating?
Everyone gets angry now and then
Choose your love and love your choice
Don’t nag about your husband – it’s not right
We all know he has a temper, but that’s just how he is
Think about your kids – don’t separate or divorce or they’ll have a broken home
3. Help Your Daughter By Validating Her
Offer your daughter support. Listening, believing, and offering support are powerful ways to validate a victim’s experiences. Let her know she’s not alone. Tell her about daily Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.
Transcript: How To Help Your Daughter In An Abusive Relationship
Anne: Today, I have my mom and sister, who we will call mom and sister. Say hi, guys.
Anne’s Sister: Hello
Anne’s Mom: Hi
Anne: They will talk about their experience supporting me or not supporting me through what happened. Many of you asked how to talk to your friends and family about what’s happening to you. When I was married, I would call you with concerns and tell you what was going on. Because the whole time I was honest about what was happening, how would you react before you knew it was abuse, and what types of advice would you give? So, let’s start with my sister.
Anne’s Sister: So, I remember many times Anne called and said there had been a fight, and that things had gotten out of hand, and that terrible things had happened. And I would often say everyone has problems in their marriage, or try to try to normalize maybe what had happened. Or relate to it in some way. I didn’t realize it was outside what should be happening, I guess. I didn’t know how to recognize victim blaming in myself.
Anne: Mom?
Anne’s Mom: That’s the same with me. Sometimes you’d call me like at 2 or 3 in the morning, and you’d say he’s running outside in his underwear, and I’d think, that’s really odd. Why is he doing that? What would possess him to do that? So, there were some odd things that you would say he had done, or some things that happened that I knew were odd. Of course, I didn’t know how to my daughter in an abusive marriage.
Understanding Abuse: A Learning Curve
Anne’s Mom: I just thought, well, maybe that’s what he’s like. Maybe he’s just that way, and I probably advised you. I don’t remember the exact words I said, but I think I remember something like, well, how do you think you should handle that? What do you want to do? Maybe you could do something that would lessen that reaction. I don’t know if I said those things, but that’s what I think I would say. I had no thoughts of my daughter actually being in an abusive relationship.
Anne: Yeah, you guys were both super supportive. It’s not like you ever told me to do something I didn’t want to do. Like, I would tell you what had happened, and you’d be like, that’s weird, but this is probably the reason, or I wonder what the reason is. It was like we were all confused, but tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. This is also something to consider when helping your daughter avoid teenage abuse.
Anne’s Sister: The biggest mistake I think I made is that I said things like, what did you do to start the problem? Or maybe next time this happens, you could do this. Not understanding it had literally nothing to do with what you were doing, or how abuse works. Thinking that if you reacted differently, or if something’s changed, then he would no longer react this way. Just totally misunderstanding, because I had no idea how it worked, or that this was abuse. So I didn’t know.
Anne: Yeah, why did you think you didn’t see it as abuse at the time? I mean, I told you about his exploitative materials use, so you guys knew that this use was happening.
The Role Of Pornography & Anger Issues
Anne: And that was my biggest complaint, or was it? I mean, maybe it wasn’t. I think we talked about the exploitative material and anger. From my viewpoint at the time, I thought they were the same thing. And if you got the use under control. Then the, I don’t remember if I told you that, but why do you think you didn’t see it as abuse at the time?
Anne’s Mom: I think the reason why I didn’t think it was abuse is that I knew your husband had an anger problem. You had told me he had those problems, and he spoke publicly about those problems, the use, and the anger issues. But I thought he had “anger issues,” and he was working on them. In fact, I tended your little baby for three days. While he went to the foremost nationwide anger conference that he seemed excited about and thrilled about.
And so I thought he was doing all that he possibly could, and that he was just having a hard time managing that. I had not a clue that my daughter is in an abusive relationship. And that these were occasional outbursts that needed to somehow be allowed for.
Anne: Right, because he was “working on it.”
Anne: We were being patient with him as he did that. Rather than realizing Oh, she’s being abused right now.
Anne’s Mom: That’s true, and I hadn’t learned much about boundaries. Even though I have used them in my life, I was not thinking in those terms. I wasn’t thinking she needs to set boundaries.
Anne: You need to be safe now. Like you’re not safe in this moment.
Anne’s Sister: I misunderstood what abuse is and what it looks like. Ignorance about what abuse is, was the main problem.
Recognizing That my Daughter Is In An Abusive Relationship
Because we used to call it his time of the month, because about once a month you would call. And some crazy thing had happened. But the rest of the time he was great, so we’d say, oh I guess it was just his time of the month. I didn’t understand emotional abuse and that it’s not that someone’s always terrible to be around.
Anne: What you were seeing, that you didn’t know you were seeing, was the abuse cycle.
Anne: I didn’t know it was abuse either, at the time, so we were all in the dark. If you could go back in time, what would you do now, or what types of advice would you give people in that stage now?
Anne’s Mom: Allow them to talk and listen to what they had to say, what they thought about it. And how they felt about it. Everybody gets angry from time to time. That’s not abusive, but there’s a line that people really cannot go over, which is hard to determine when you’re in that situation.
https://youtube.com/shorts/QgWLaB34xIE
And so, if they were feeling unsafe, that’s a real red flag. Is my daughter in an abusive relationship? If they were feeling threatened, unsafe, intimidated, forced, those kinds of things would be a real concern. And I think maybe at this point in time, once I’d listened to them and tried to understand exactly what was happening. I would suggest they get safe somehow. And then revisit it and think through it. Process what was actually happening.
Anne: People would ask me, do you feel safe? And I would say yes. Because I didn’t think he would hit me. One of the things might be like, do you feel emotionally safe, right?
Identifying Abuse & Seeking Help
Anne: Do you feel supported? Do you feel loved, cherished and cared about?
Anne’s Mom: Maybe, but then you were also saying he was shoving you up against the wall. He was spitting, yelling and screaming in your face. So those kinds of things are not safe.
Anne: No
Anne’s Mom: But you said you felt safe. My daughter being in abusive relationship wasn’t on my radar.
Anne: I know. I just read an article on CNN about one of the Larry Nassar victims, and didn’t see herself as a victim for two years. It took her a long time to figure out that she was actually a victim of his abuse, and she defended him for a while. Abuse victims, we don’t see it.
I remember telling the clergy and therapists that I felt safe, and telling you that. At the same time, I remember saying, if I go missing, it’s him. For victims, if we focus on emotional safety first, rather than physical safety. It might be a little easier to determine. There was so much I didn’t know about an abusive husband’s therapist.
Anne’s Sister: I think helping the person identify that it’s abuse is a big deal. Because I remember the first time you identified some of his behaviors as domestic violence. And before then, they hadn’t encouraged you that’s what was happening. Or you’re continuing to try to say why it’s not abuse. So I would try to help them notice that without being too forceful.
Anne: Yeah, because if they don’t think they’re being abused, it makes it difficult.
Her Husband’s Arrest & Realizing My Daughter Is In An Abusive Marriage
Anne’s Sister: Right, and then also to try to get them to a professional who knows more about it than I do. And get them some help, because I don’t know what I’m talking about.
Anne: So well, now we have Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Now you can send them here, but before we didn’t have that. So it was hard, because betrayal trauma is a form of insidious abuse that can lead to physical violence. It’s scary.
Anne’s Mom: The other thing about that is that even though you’d seen that counselor, it wasn’t until after he was arrested.
Anne: Which was a month later.
Anne’s Mom: Yes, and we were sent to Safe Harbor for battered women. They recommended we read a book. And once we read that, it was like, whoa, this is abuse. The realization that my daughter is in an abusive relationship was devastating. It was check, check, check. Maybe some more traditional things weren’t there, like isolation. But he was physically intimidating, and he was violent in a way that didn’t show marks, I guess.
Anne: It did on my walls. I had holes in my walls, and then the last time I had the bruises on my butt and my hand was sprained.
Anne’s Mom: Yes, and it was interesting because we thought he was getting better. We thought he was working on it, but looking over time, he was actually getting worse. The thing that was helpful to me was once I identified it as abuse, and once I gave the book to you, Mom, and you read it. You believed me.
Anne’s Mom: Yes.
Anne’s Sister: Yeah.
Anne: So at that point, it wasn’t like, no, no, no, you are overreacting. Both of you were like, oh, this explains it.
How To Support Someone After Abuse Is Identified
Anne: For friends and family: when she identifies the abuse, don’t talk her out of it. Don’t be like, no, no, no. If he’s abusive, yikes, you might have to get divorced, or this is serious. I think many clergy, friends and family try to talk someone out of it. The consequences are so extreme.
Anne’s Sister: That’s exactly what I think my main problem was. I was looking at it from a perspective of, let’s save this, let’s not let it go out of control. Thinking that the best possible thing would be to stay together, with no idea that abuse was happening. So, my advice was always based on the idea that let’s work this out. It can’t be that bad, because it needs to work out. Giving advice based on saving the relationship. It’s more important to stay safe, totally.
Anne’s Mom: It’s also more important for the abuser because when they are faced with what they’re doing and the consequences of those actions, it could possibly be a motivation for change.
Anne: Right, in my case, he hasn’t changed yet. He’s continuing to lie, and that’s sad. So I have to continue to hold boundaries. Let’s talk about when I called both of you and told you that he screamed in my face and spit in my face. Do you guys remember this?
Anne’s Mom: Yes.
Anne’s Sister: At least a few times, which time?
Anne: We’ve talked about general things that you would do.
Anne’s Mom: He wasn’t spitting in your face as just a spit. It was because he was so close, and he was yelling and screaming, that spit flew from his mouth into your face. I was witnessing my daughter being in an abusive relationship.
What To Do In Acute Situations
Anne: Yeah, and he was like bright red and was also saying awful things.
Anne’s Mom: And he is much larger, and stronger, and looming over you, or pushing you up against a wall.
Anne: And it was scary. Yeah, so in an acute situation like that, what would you say now? If I call and say this happened ten minutes ago? I’m freaking out, what should I do? For listeners who are like, okay, I want my mom and my sister to hear this. What do you think would have been the right thing to do in that particular, specific situation?
Anne’s Sister: I’m on my way over, right now. I’m in the car, I’m on my way over, you need another adult there, to either say we’re packing up and getting out of the house or you just need some support. You need a witness to have someone there so that your loved one feels safe.
Anne’s Mom: Now that we’ve done the Safe Harbor thing, now that we’ve read, now that we understand a little more. Any time now when there’s a slightest amount of abuse or escalation, I would also advise you to get out of there. Leave if you possibly can, because it’s not safe, and you should not be there if that’s happening.
Anne: The best case scenario for women is that they stay in their homes, and that the abuser leaves. So, sister’s recommendation, like, I will be there if you’re within driving distance. Like, get there and he needs to leave, you’re gonna need some backup. Clergy, family, friends, to get him out of the house. Because in my situation, he refused to leave.
Updating Advice For A Daughter In An Abusive Relationship
Anne: I asked him to, and he refused. It wasn’t until he sprained my fingers and the police forced him to leave that he actually left.
Current Day Anne: This is the current day, and I’m interjecting here. We recorded this episode years ago. The advice I gave next was not accurate. And so I’m replacing it with saying that since then, I’ve learned safety strategies that I would now recommend. And I’ve written them all in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. While I edit this bad advice so nobody hears it, I don’t want anyone harmed by my process of learning what to do.
Anne: That, I think, is good. I started doing Grey Rock, and it got worse. I just started being like, no, yes, and try not to talk to him. And it got worse, because he was like, why aren’t you talking to me? Why aren’t you reacting like you used to? And that kind of made things worse. So, we’re just gonna conclude now with some tips that you might have for any woman who is married to a user. After what you’ve seen me go through, being a daughter in an abusive relationship.
Concluding Tips For Women Married To exploitative material Users
Anne’s Sister: I think the first one is don’t underestimate the amount of abuse happening and obviously you talk about this extensively on the podcast.
Anne’s Mom: Yes, I agree. Support them by believing them and listening to them. Also, by being there for them if they need babysitting, whatever they might need, be there for them and with them. Sometimes family members of a daughter in an abusive marriage want to save the marriage, and they don’t know who to believe.
Do you believe the user who lied about this, and this, and this? Or do you think the person that’s the spouse, if they’re lying about what he might have been doing, to get back at him? Those kinds of traps that we fall into. Who is the liar there? What is the basis for thinking that the person being lied to is the liar?
The term DARVO, where the person who is the offender actually gaslights the other person and accuses them of lying. Accusing them of doing all these things. Accusing them of setting them up for arrest, who knows what, all these things. So how do you determine who is the liar and who isn’t?
You can see it. And we could look back and see it. But at the time where we were far away and we were on the phone and we felt like the marriage was more important, then it was hard to really see that he’s lying.
Anne: Yeah.
Understanding DARVO & Gaslighting
Anne: Darvo is where they deny and then attack, and then reverse the victim and offender role. Which is exactly what happened in my situation. Now he feels like he’s the victim. And that everything I did to keep me safe from him, he says what’s going on is attacking him. Rather than realizing that those are the things I needed to do to protect myself from his ongoing abuse and lies.
Anne’s Sister: So I have one more thing that I thought of to help protect from further victimization. So if they’re talking to clergy and getting bad advice, or if they’re talking to other people trying to say oh, it’s the fault of both of you.
You need to go to couples counseling to help them understand that if they get advice that makes them feel terrible about themselves, they’re at fault. Then they should not be going to that person anymore. To help them see who they can trust. Because there are many people out there who they can’t trust.
Anne: Tell her that she’s strong, brave, and doing a good job. Don’t undermine her by saying, well, maybe you could be doing this and maybe you could be doing that. Because that is not helpful in an abuse situation. Although we all have things we could improve on. Which my sister and mom also told me.
Final Thoughts About Having A Daughter In An Abusive Relationship
Anne’s Sister: Yes, that’s the biggest mistake I think I made. I was saying, how did you contribute to this or what could you do differently next time? Yeah, not understanding what abusive relationships look like.
Anne’s Mom: Or maybe if you did this, or maybe if you did that. But what Safe Harbor told us is that if you had been less assertive, more submissive, it would have been worse.
Anne: Yeah, yep, because he would get his way more. Yeah, but in this case, I was a terrible victim. Yes. I was the worst victim ever. I did not do what victims are supposed to do. And I know that many of you who are listening do not have supportive friends and family, and my heart goes out to you. That’s really, really difficult, and hopefully in your search for safety, you can find a safe network, people that can help you.
There are people out there. Betrayal Trauma and Recovery is a great community to find safe people. So, I’m grateful to my mom and sister for coming on today.
What Does The Bible Say About Cheating Husbands? – Lisa’s Story
Apr 19, 2022
If you’ve just discovered your husband lied to you and was cheating, what does the Bible say about cheating husbands? Here’s what you need to know.
Did you know that lying and cheating are emotional abuse? There are 19 types of emotional abuse. In addition to cheating, see if you’re also experiencing emotional abuse by taking our free emotional abuse quiz.
Here’s What The Bible Says About Adultery
Exodus 20:14 – Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Matthew 5:28 – 28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
2 Corinthians 6:14,17 – Be ye not unequally yoked…for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?…Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
What does the Bible say about cheating husbands? The Bible says that if a husband looks at another woman and has bad thoughts about her, it is like breaking a promise to his wife. Watching inappropriate videos or thinking about another woman in that way is wrong.
What does the bible say about cheating husbands? Here’s What The Bible Says About Lying
Exodus 20:16 – 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Psalm 101:7 – He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.
God does not like lying. He wants His followers to be treated with honesty and respect. If your husband is lying to you, it means he is not treating you in a safe or kind way.
Ezra 10:11 Separate yourselves from the strange [husbands].
Hebrews 7:26 – Who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners
Also, the Bible teaches us not to accept bad behavior. Lisa’s situation got worse when her pastor supported her abuser. “My pastor hurt me when he said I needed to be more sexual with my husband,” she said. “He even asked me inappropriate questions that made me feel uncomfortable and ashamed.”
So a victim should never be forced to put herself in danger.
“My clergy traumatized me when he yelled at me, accusing me of being the problem,” she recalls. “It was devastating.”
Here’s What The Bible Says About Justice
Deuteronomy 32:4 – 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Psalm 10:17–18 – 17 Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear. To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end…to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
Transcript: What Does The Bible Say About Cheating Husbands?
Anne: I have a master’s level researcher on today’s episode. She’s also been through this herself, and she’s going to share some of her personal story. Welcome, Lisa.
Lisa: Thank you, Anne. It’s good to be here.
Anne: Before you share your story, I want to talk about what the Bible says about cheating husbands, and how the church often responds to women’s spiritual crisis. In fact, I’ve actually listed scriptures on this episode in the “Read” section above. So you don’t have to take notes.
What does the Bible say about cheating husbands? The Bible says pornography is adultery. That’s an Exodus 20, Matthew chapter 5 and II Corinthians.
What the Bible says about lying? Of course, thou shalt not bear false witness. But there’s a really interesting one in Psalm 101:7 that says he that worked with deceit shall not dwell within my house. He, that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight. I’ve also listed scriptures about what the Bible says about reconciliation with wickedness.
And what the Bible says about justice and all these topics we will be talking about today. But if you want to see those scriptures, again, go to the “Read” section above this transcript.
So in the context of finding out your husband has been using pornography, lying to you, or psychologically abusing you. And your church community doesn’t stand by what the Bible says about cheating husbands, and that creates a spiritual crisis. Let’s start with your story.
Lisa’s Experience with Church Abuse
Lisa: Absolutely, I experienced this. I have a faith background. And I was active in my local church as my marriage fell apart. I hit a lot of abuse, and went through a deep spiritual crisis that would last for years. I questioned whether God could still love me, because the church rejected me for making a stand. And walking away from a man who was not willing to stop lying. What does the Bible say about cheating husbands?
So, having my faith pulled out from underneath me was part of why that was such a low, low time for me. I felt that had there been support, had people been talking about sex addiction, perhaps I wouldn’t have hit such a low point.
Anne: When you say you hit a lot of abuse. Are you talking about abuse from the church?
Lisa: Yes, unfortunately, and mine is one of many, many stories. A similar thread runs through all of them, so it’s somehow not the man’s fault. It’s the woman’s fault. Especially if she decides to make a strong boundary, like I’m leaving abuse. I got threatening letters from a pastor throughout the four or five years I was single.
Living as a solo mom in a different city, I moved cities to get a full time job. Eventually, that would even lead to a death threat. And it’s interesting, my mother, who also had to leave my father for his chronic infidelity, went through almost exactly the same thing. She got threatening phone calls. Ultimately, she also faced a death threat. You know, I was blessed that I had learned from her how to stand up to spiritual abuse.
Threats & Abuse from Church Leaders: Spiritual crisis
Anne: My church leader told me I was the abuser, because I said my husband was abusive. It was unbelievable. There was so much abuse that happened, because my ex manipulated our church leader or our clergy. What does the Bible say about cheating husbands?
So you sent your survey to over 100 women. What did it reveal about how victims of abuse often go through a spiritual crisis?
Lisa: Of the over 100 women who answered, more than 63 percent felt they had gone through a significant spiritual crisis. The only thing surprising about that was that the number was that low. It was interesting, because some started saying, no, I didn’t go through a spiritual crisis. But as they continued to answer the questions, there was an open comments field. They went, you know what, I hadn’t thought I had gone through a spiritual crisis, but I can see now that I actually did.
Which makes you realize that sometimes the types of trauma symptoms a woman faces can be so overwhelming. That they may not even realize they’re having a crisis of faith, an existential crisis, that their larger spiritual framework has become shaky.
What does the Bible say about cheating Husbands: Distrust & Feelings of Injustice
Lisa: What does the Bible say about cheating husbands? For some women, the spiritual crisis really centered around their broader belief in God, in a higher power. It was also around church and other people who share their faith, their normal faith community. For some women it was both.
When we looked at the women who were feeling distrustful of God, of their higher power, they talked about feeling duped by him. They talked about feelings of injustice, feeling I have been a solid, faithful person in my faith community. Why would something like this happen to me? I’ve been solid and faithful in my marriage. Why would something like this happen to me? It’s not fair. Women talk about feelings of rejection by God or judgment. Some talked about feeling abandoned by God.
And then many of those women experienced something similar in the church. They experienced rejection in their church or faith community. They experienced abandonment in their faith community. And sometimes they experienced outright persecution. Like my story, my mother’s story, and many other women’s stories.
The more deeply a woman was involved in her faith community, particularly if she was the spouse of the head of the community, or was involved in some kind of ministering, the more she felt it. Particularly those wives of leadership, ministry wives, they had their world rocked. They had so much more to lose. And most of them keep a high level of anonymity, because the fear of the loss of their world, if his abuse should be discovered.
Ideal Marriage Expectations Shattered
Lisa: Wives who’d had a difficult past and had come to faith as adults. Often their understanding of the world was well, I suffered a lot in my relationships in the past because I didn’t have my faith. But now I’ve got my faith community and met a faithful man.
So now we’re gonna have the ideal marriage. When they find out that their ideal Christian husband or a husband of their faith is actually lying. It causes quite a crisis. That’s not to imply they were naive or anything like that. That’s certainly what churches teach, it’s implied frequently. Women who had been spiritually abused and persecuted by sex addict husbands.
Anne: Yes, “sex addict.” I mean, I had the sense that if I obeyed the commandments and followed the teachings, I would be protected. The teachings were forgive, love, support your husband. What does the Bible say about cheating husbands? And when I realized that all the forgiving, serving, and loving actually enabled his abuse. And I wasn’t taught to protect myself or separate myself from wickedness. They weren’t applying what the Bible says about cheating husbands.
Also in my faith, it’s fine to get divorced if abuse is an issue. They didn’t believe me that I was being abused. They just wanted me to continue to love, serve, and forgive.
Lisa: Grace to him and nuts to you. You just need to forgive more, and it’ll all be solved. That’s not true.
Blame and Exploitation Dynamics
Anne: Well, since the abuser exploits us. Forgiving him solves his problem. Because he can continue exploiting you. They can’t see anything from their victim’s point of view. They can’t perceive the problem is the exploitation. Because the only problem for them is that they’re not able to exploit us. So if we “forgive” them and go back to how things were, it actually solves their problem. What does the Bible say about cheating husbands?
Lisa: We were talking earlier about your pastor being in way over his head. Along with addiction, there is a lot of lying, minimizing, rationalizing, justifying and blame. The basic formula for many faith communities is to stand up for men, and blame women. Most of them would never think of it in those kinds of terms. But if you watch the pattern, there’s a history of, if you have to side with one or the other, you side with the man.
Many of them have “blame the woman mentality,” and that’s what I saw in my circumstances. He was a pathological liar. So the boys all got together to believe what my husband said, and very few people asked me what’s your side of the story here.
Anne: Most of the time when they ask for your side of the story. They’re viewing it as if he has his side and you have your side. And the truth is somewhere in the middle. But that’s not the reality.
What does the Bible say about cheating husbands: Knights and Knaves: Truth vs. Lies
Anne: The reality is the riddle of the knights and the knaves, where the knights always tell the truth. The knaves always lie. So, how can you determine a knight from a knave? Who always tells the truth and who’s a pathological liar. She’s telling the truth and he’s manipulating everyone and managing his image. What does the Bible say about cheating husbands? People say to me, that’s too simple. I’m like, it actually is that simple.
Lisa: We’re not over-exaggerating. If anything, we’re holding back, yeah. Because some of this stuff is going on in our bedrooms. We’re not keen to talk to our pastor about that. Abuse in the bedroom, or it’s neglect in the bedroom. Stuff that we have difficulty explaining. Which is cluing us into the fact that this guy is not who he says he is. So there’s something seriously wrong. She doesn’t have the impetus to lie and hide that he does.
Anne: Right, we constantly get accused of exaggerating.
Lisa: Yeah, you must be exaggerating.
Anne: Yeah, I’m like, I’m not exaggerating. Then you’re trying to prove you’re not exaggerating, you look more and more crazy. So it’s like this downward spiral.
Lisa: What is making this so difficult for women in a faith community situation is that her trauma symptoms are making her look really crazy. Often the husband has worked really, really hard to maintain this smooth image. And we should be saying, “Wow. The level of emotion she’s exhibiting proves the veracity of her statements.” It actually should lead credence to what she’s saying.
And his too smooth by far should be getting picked up on people’s radar. That alone should be a cue but they don’t. People tend to see it as the opposite. It’s like out of control.
Sex Addiction & Church’s Role
Lisa: I think where sex addiction has gone in the last decade, where pornography has gone in the last decade, is so horrific. If that is not part of your purview, if you’ve never stopped and considered the ways people can go off the rails. It can seem like, surely not, surely he’s not doing that, surely it can’t be that bad, surely it’s not as awful as you’re saying. But it is.
Anne: Right.
Lisa: There are researchers and experts who will tell you it is that bad. Mm hmm. It’s horrific.
So when we’re talking about women being spiritually abused or persecuted by their church, and I’m sure between us, we could list dozens of stories. Even just this morning, I received an email from a woman telling me a little bit of her story. Which included her husband’s infidelity, the church found out. They began policing her sex life, telling her she needed to be more available. And started actually asking regularly questions about her availability.
Anne: Wait, what? Like that’s sexual coercion. They’re literally using sexual abuse to harass this woman and force her to be oppressed by her husband. Wow. What does the Bible say about cheating husbands? Not that.
Lisa: Absolutely. She said, I hate sex, I began having sex with my husband because of pressure from the church. So the sad reality is sometimes there is no answer to getting away from the abuse outside of leaving a particular faith community. And some people leave all faith communities because of this. I think that’s understandable, and I never criticize people for doing what they need to do to protect themselves.
Anne: That’s so hard.
Spiritual Growth Amidst Crisis
Anne: What does the Bible say about cheating husbands? You mentioned the survey also looked at spiritual growth. What did it show about that?
Lisa: So many of these women, more than the 63 percent of the 79 percent said that through this journey of discovering their husband’s sex addiction, porn addiction, and walking through crisis, they came to a stronger place.
Because for a small percentage, that was pretty instant. They found out, and they just kind of flopped into God’s arms for comfort. Like one woman said, no, that was always my safe place. And so I went there immediately. But for more women, it was part of coming through the spiritual crisis, they ended up with a strengthened faith.
And others talked about having a qualitatively better relationship with God on the other side of this. By that, I mean they’d always had a relationship with God. And this was my experience. I had a relationship with God, but God and I are much closer. I feel like I get him at a deeper level, and it’s a much more life giving for me. It was meditations and prayers.
I had certainly heard from other women. It’s joining a support group like yours, and seeing other women and how it’s bolstering them in a loving, non pressuring way. Then they begin to reconnect, they are more at peace, stronger, more loved and supported.
What does the Bible say about cheating husbands: Questioning & Rethinking Faith
Lisa: As we were talking about the abuse in the church. Many of us begin to rethink our faith. I began to question everything I thought I’d ever known about God. And I think we do. The Bible talks about this idea that trials will grow us. What in my beliefs feels fundamentally true. And what is just baggage? Like, for example, the whole, we don’t have boundaries thing, Or, a step about women’s place, some fundamental things about the nature of God, for example, that we begin to think through more carefully.
The nature of God itself. And that’s an enormous issue. And people don’t even realize they’re often carrying contradictory pictures. Of God around with them. And he is complex and mysterious. But at the same time, he wants to show his goodness to women at the time of their suffering. Because the Bible talks about his thoughts, his heart is so towards the suffering, marginalized, widows and orphans. He wants justice for the widows and orphans.
We’ve got a generation of pornography widows and sex addiction orphans out there. What does the Bible say about cheating husbands? God wants wives treated well. He wants justice for them, he wants them lifted up. And I like to see the church beginning to respond to God’s heart in that. Women like myself idolized marriage. That fell by the wayside as part of this journey, not surprisingly. I realized that marriage was never going to fulfill all my great longings for love and relationship. That was something I could only find in God. That was, for me, a big part of my spiritual growth.
Personal Spiritual Growth & Realizations
Anne: Speaking of justice for the widows, I did a podcast episode about Luke 18 and the parable of the unjust judge, how the widow asks him to avenge her. And he’s like, no, no, go away. And then, in the end, he thinks, Oh, I know a way to get her to go away. I’ll just put it back on God. I’ll just say, God will avenge you in his right time. And he doesn’t actually do anything. That parable perfectly explains it, what the pornography widows want is justice.
Lisa: Additionally, the church could help with the spiritual crisis. They could help catapult women into spiritual growth and circumvent the whole women feeling guilty for wanting justice, like they’re doing something wrong. Wanting justice that’s coming from a really healthy place. That’s coming from God’s heart. God wants justice for you too.
Anne: Yeah, in my faith tradition, one of our leaders, he’s in a bad spot, and he’s praying and he’s saying, God, where are you? Then there’s this first where he actually asks for justice from God. He says, God, will you avenge my adversaries? They gloss over that part, here is this strong spiritual person, and he is asking for justice. What does the Bible say about cheating husbands. What’s wrong with us asking for justice?
Lisa: For example, we often quote Isaiah. The Messiah, is there to bind up the brokenhearted and release the captive. And declare the day of vengeance on your enemies. Part of healing is justice. God hasn’t forgotten that.
Anne: It’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out. I have not observed that, but maybe someday, maybe in the next life. That’s what I always say.
New Levels of vulnerability with God
Lisa: Yeah. So normal to go through some kind of crisis like this. Don’t be ashamed of it. If you feel like you need to go outside and shake your fist at God. And throw some stuff up at the sky and scream at him, do it. Do not be concerned about committing some kind of unforgivable sin or some heresy, because God is big enough, and if you are keeping those lines of communication going, that’s amazing.
Just keep it going, even if it feels like I have nothing good to say to you, and I have no nice way to say it. He is a good father, and a good parent can take this stuff. He knows how you’re feeling, loves you, and wants you to pour out to him.
Anne: Because God, I’m ready that you will have all of me the good and the bad. I’m listening through research about what does the Bible say about cheating husbands.
Lisa: That’s right.
Anne: So I’m willing now to let you see me in this vulnerable state, I’m willing to have you see me as I am this broken person in despair.
Lisa: Maybe that’s another part of the spiritual growth. We hit new levels of vulnerability with God. And we find that we are still accepted, we are still loved, because I really did sense God’s love for me and care in the midst of my angriest days.
Anne: Then I went through about a nine month drought where I could not feel God at all. I was praying and reading my scriptures. I study the scriptures every day. And I just felt trauma, sadness, and horror. I said it felt like the jaws of hell were gaping after me.
What does the Bible say about cheating husbands: Forgiveness isn’t on the table
Anne: I spent a lot of time at church crying in the bathroom stall. I continued to pray and study my scriptures. And I think I had so many spiritual experiences from before to draw on during that time of drought. I thought, I know this works. I’m just going to keep going, even though I can’t feel it now. I spent time studying what does the Bible say about cheating husbands.
Lisa: Oh yes. Sometimes it doesn’t feel like a place of comfort.
Anne: Yeah, so I had my group, and I have good friends and family. So I had support and could express how I felt. And they were amazing. Instead of saying, Well, you should forgive, and then you’ll feel better. I think this comes down to forgiveness. They didn’t say that. They said, that makes sense.
Lisa: That’s what you need to hear.
Anne: The trauma is so intense, like forgiveness isn’t even on the table.
Lisa: No, absolutely not. Um, surviving is on the table, and God gets that in my personal interactions with God. I felt no pressure whatsoever to forgive. I felt, let’s just survive this.
Anne: Also, you know where you said that toward the end of the survey, the participants were like, wait, I had a spiritual crisis. Right now I’m thinking, wait. I think I was talking to God. and he was answering me. During those nine months, but I just did not feel comforted. because he kept telling me to do nothing and wait. and observe from a safe distance.
Observe from a safe distance
Anne: I did not like that answer. I was like, if I just wait and observe from a safe distance, he’s not going to do anything. He wasn’t trying to repair a relationship, nothing. What I didn’t realize was that I was observing his true character. It gave me this clear picture of who he was, which I desperately needed. That’s what God wanted me to see. But it was not comforting at all. So I could not feel comforted. I didn’t feel peace. I didn’t feel calm that God like knew what he was doing. It was so traumatic in every way.
During that time, God taught me about boundaries. These are things that I now teach in the Living Free Workshop, how to see his true character. I learned what does the Bible say about cheating husbands. How does that actual boundaries and observe from a safe distance, so that you’re not going to get manipulated or lied to ever again, you’ll see the truth. To go back to that painful time where I couldn’t feel comforted. A friend, actually, it was like, just give up on God and get a really soft blanket. I put it around yourself and curl up in your closet.
I mean, I was in so much emotional pain and couldn’t feel comforted that like the best we could do was like, get a Teddy bear, you know?
Lisa: In the moment, what we sometimes need is a community that just lifts us up. A community that just says, I will weep with those who weep. I’m not going to sit here and preach to you like Job’s friends. I’m just going to sit here quietly with you and share your pain. That’s one of my main messages to the church these days.
Keep your advice & share her pain
Lisa: You don’t understand. If you’ve not been there, just trust me, you don’t understand. So keep your advice and share her pain, and pray for her and ask how you can help.
Anne: Thank you so much for being here today.
Lisa: Thank you, Anne. It is an honor to be invited to talk with you about what does the Bible say about cheating husbands, and get to know you better. I’m so excited about what BTR is doing. So I’m talking about it to like everybody who will listen. You and your team keep up the awesome work you’re doing.
Anne: Thank you.
Should I Prepare For Divorce? 4 Things To Consider
Apr 12, 2022
Many women find themselves torn between the hope that their husband will change and the question, “Should I prepare for divorce?” If you’re grappling with this, you’re not alone. Here are 4 things to consider.
Should I Prepare for Divorce?
If your husband has lied to you and is psychologically abusive, you’re likely clinging to the hope of his transformation. Wishing for change is totally normal. All the women in our community have hoped for our emotionally abusive husband to change.
Preparing for divorce doesn’t signify defeat. Rather, it indicates that you’re taking steps to protect yourself just in case.
One way to know if you should prepare is to listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast where women share stories about when they had to ask themselves this question.
Why Prepare for Divorce if He Might Change?
Preparing for divorce doesn’t automatically mean you’ll follow through. But often abusive men file for divorce out of nowhere, leaving their wife stunned.
If you prepare for divorce, it means that you’re prioritizing your emotional safety in case your husband remains emotionally abusive.
Signs You May Not Need To Prepare For Divorce
Accountability: Your husband is recognizing his actions without deflecting blame.
Consistent Effort: He’s showing a long-term commitment to change.
Empathy: He’s demonstrating a true understanding of the harm inflicted.
Signs You Need to Prepare for Divorce
Inconsistency: he frequently apologies followed by repeated harmful behavior.
Manipulation: he uses guilt or pressure to secure reconciliation.
Lack of Responsibility: he fails to acknowledge the extent of the damage caused.
Steps To Prepare for Divorce (But Not Necessarily Do It)
1. Get Educated About Divorce
Knowledge is power! The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop can help educate you about basic divorce information before you even consider it. Take a step back to evaluate your husband’s actions against his words. Is he genuinely remorseful and making efforts to change, or are his promises empty? Are you emotionally abused? Take ourfree emotional abuse quiz to find out.
2. Profile Your Husband
Hope is a powerful emotion, but it cannot replace the necessity of preparatiom. Before you prepare for divorce, you need to know what your husband’s true character is. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop will help you see the truth of his character and anticipate what he’s going to do next.
3. Find The Right Emotional Support
Establishing an emotional safety net is essential if you’re considering preparing for divorce. Consider attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions to get the emotional support you’ll need no matter what decision you make.
4. Rely On Experts in Emotional Abuse
The coaches at Betrayal Trauma Recovery aren’t just certified divorce coaches, they’re also trauma coaches who can support you through the entire process, but won’t push you to do anything you feel uncomfortable with.
Transcript: Should I Prepare For Divorce?
Anne: I have asked my friend Debra Doak author of High Conflict Divorce for Women, Your Guide to Coping Skills and Learning Strategies for All Stages of Divorce. To talk about this phase that women are in, where they wonder if they should prepare for divorce.
Especially if they don’t know if their husband’s going to change or really just don’t want to get a divorce.
Welcome Debra.
Debra: Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here.
Common Divorce Regrets
Anne: So many women who have been through a divorce are like, ah, things would have gone so much better if I would have known this. Or if I would have known that.
Debra: We don’t know what we don’t know. And as traumatized women, we often either underreact or overreact. Both of those things can put us in a poor position when it comes to divorce. We’re also often the lower earners, or stay at home parents, and can get hurt quickly in this process if not prepared, get caught off guard. We’re also more likely to make emotional decisions, instead of strategic decisions looking out for long-term well-being.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34WXrOpiGG4
And as we know, we are also likely to trust when trust isn’t really deserved. When you trust an untrustworthy person in divorce, sometimes that can come back to bite you.
Anne: A lot of women aren’t interested in doing the Living Free Workshop, even though it’s for married, separated and divorced women. It’s just about strategy, but they don’t want to do it because they think. I only need to think about strategy in the worst case scenario. They want to focus on their marriage working out.
Debra: When women are trying to make that stay, wait, or go decision. Having been through betrayal trauma myself, we take baby steps. Let’s get copies of financial documents, get a little more in the loop on finances. Let’s start setting a little money aside. So we kind of just put the tip our toe in the water of getting ready.
Observing from a Safe Distance
Debra: While we’re going to give 150%, 100% to the marriage, and maybe 50 or 40 percent to setting yourself up just in case.
Anne: Yeah, that’s exactly what the Living Free Workshop is about, how to observe from a safe distance. While determining his true character, what reality anticipates is what’s going to happen next. Also focusing on your own goals. So there is a section of Living Free that educates women about divorce. If they’re not interested, they can skip that part. But it’s just basic divorce education, which is important for every woman to have no matter what her situation is.
Debra: Yeah, definitely is. I mean, preparation makes any divorce go more smoothly. Because when we act out of fear, we don’t make good decisions. And so even if you don’t have a high conflict person, divorce can still be very conflicted. In the case where you’ve been with an emotional abuser, you need to be prepared for what could happen.
The sense of entitlement that’s allowed them to behave in the ways they’ve behaved during the marriage. It is also a sense of entitlement that can cause a switch to flip when the woman decides to divorce them.
Anne: Yeah, it’s hard to even wrap your head around the fact that they might flip that switch. And that happened in my case, it happens in almost every case I see. Where a woman was manipulated to think he would always pay child support or alimony.
Prepare For Divorce: Importance of Education
Anne: And to be in the position where he’s not even remotely, the person you thought he was, is so alarming. And because we’ve all been through that stage where we think, he’s not going to do that to me. That’s not going to happen to me. I think all women, I mean, in high school or college, or somewhere, we all need education about divorce.
Debra: For the women who don’t believe it’s going to happen to them. A common, what I call, dirty divorce trick is spousal starvation, and suddenly he reroutes that paycheck. Now you don’t have gas and groceries. What are you going to do? I hope your husband is a nice guy and negotiates fairly throughout, but what harm would it do if we had a little emergency savings account? What would it hurt if you took a few steps to protect you just in case?
Anne: Yeah, because as you start getting healthier and setting boundaries. They will either improve, and they’re going to get it, or they’re going to get worse. But it’s not going to stay the same.
Debra: It’ll change one way or the other. Either they will have a sense of guilt, remorse and empathy. Or, like I said, that sense of entitlement will come bubbling to the surface, and suddenly it becomes their money. And how dare you? So we just ask the what if questions. You’ve had a friend that went through a bad divorce. What if your husband did that? Maybe take a few baby steps to protect yourself.
Financial Abuse
Debra: In this day and age, it seems like betrayal is rampant. Sometimes it’s financial betrayal. And sometimes they actually don’t know for sure. They don’t have any proof, but a wife knows the truth. She may not know the facts, but she knows the truth. When you’re with an emotional abuser, there’s often financial abuse involved. So women may not have access to information about their marital finances. That makes it hard to get started if you don’t even know what’s on the table to be divided.
If you don’t have access to your own money. So that makes things really hard. Often the abuse will still keep her in a one-down position. And she still feels like she doesn’t have the power and voice to stand up for what she deserves.
Anne: To all my listeners, this is important. They’re going to get mad no matter what. So please don’t make decisions thinking, okay, he’s going to get mad if I do this. So I’m not going to do it to avoid making him mad. He’s going to be mad, no matter what. So just do whatever you want. That’s very, very important. Because so many women are trying to stop the abuse by doing what he wants. And that is not going to happen.
Debra: Not at all. Not at all. Women in abusive situations need to start creating this exit strategy in stealth mode. So that when he gets crazy, she’s at least got a few things in place. So she has copies of financial documents in a safe space, because they disappear. She’s got some money set aside because money disappears. Those kinds of things.
No Winners In Divorce
Debra: There are no winners in divorce. So everyone walks away feeling like they didn’t get what they wanted. One thing I see often with betrayed women is expecting the court system to mete out emotional justice. He cheated on me, so why do I have to do with less? Why do I have to live in a small apartment? Why do I have to drive a used car? Whatever the what if is or why. And unless it’s something really egregious that’s going to shock the court, there’s no emotional justice.
What we want to come away from a divorce with is a settlement where we made intentional decisions. And that we can feel good about. So we had all the information we needed, and every choice was intentional. Sometimes you will give up something that you were entitled to in order to get something else. And that’s okay, as long as it was an intentional decision as you prepare for divorce.
So we just don’t want to come away feeling like we were missing information or a victim. Because what that does, and you’ll get this, it impacts their ability to recover from it afterwards. Divorce can be a bump in the road. It doesn’t have to be your destination. And so the more empowered you feel during the process, even though crappy things are happening, and he’s mean and unfair. And you may not get everything you want. If you can feel like you were informed you’re going to recover and move through that healing phase so much faster.
Anne: Yeah. that’s the point of the Living Free Workshop. You can get information by clicking that link.
You Need Several People On Your Team When You Prepare For Divorce
Anne: On our BTR Team, our coaches are betrayal trauma coaches. They’re also certified divorce coaches, so they can walk you through this and help you implement the Living Free strategies. They can help you prepare and stealth mode. Like she was talking about. The other thing our coaches do is help you work through those emotions.
Debra: Yeah, when we talk about preparing for divorce, I talk about two people you need on your team. And that’s, I call a BFF backup. This is the person you can call at three in the morning, who can pick your kids up from school. Who knows what you’re thinking before you do. When they say, how are you? And you say, I’m okay. They go, no, you’re not. So you need a BFF backup and a taskmaster. Your taskmaster friend is someone who might not sit with their arm around you, but there’s someone who will research attorneys for you.
We’ll do all the real estate legwork. We’ll go to the grocery for you. Someone who will do the things that you’re too emotionally crippled to even deal with. And then you need a safe place to share and be real. Because emotional regulation is key during this process, and by regulating or managing your emotions, I don’t mean stuffing them.
What I mean is having some place safe with a coach, a super healthy friend or family member to get that stuff out. So that you can be strategic in your planning, and you want to have a safe place to get those emotions out. And then you also want to get the affirmation that what you’re feeling is normal as you prepare for divorce.
Friends To Help When Emotions Rule
Debra: Women say, I can’t remember where my keys are. I’m crying all the time. Of course you are. Of course, you feel that way. Look at what you’re going through. In divorce care, they tell you that sometimes, I think 80 percent of your brain can be occupied with thoughts about divorce. If you think about a computer, 80 percent of your computer’s RAM is busy processing thoughts about the divorce. And only 20 percent is available for your daily living. Of course, you’re going to forget your keys.
Anne: Here are two concrete examples. I wasn’t able to read written instructions well. And so I asked a friend whose daughter was in my son’s preschool at the time. My son and her daughter were going to the same preschool, and we would get these emails or texts about what was happening. I couldn’t process them. I would try. I’d look at them and I’d be like, Oh, something about a hat. You know, I couldn’t figure it out. And so I asked her, I said, I can’t process written information in these emails and texts. So keep this in mind when your preparing for divorce.
If something is important, will you please call me or send a text and say, send him in a hat like the simplest text possible? Just one thing, so I didn’t have to read the explanation or whatever, and she was happy to do that for me. And so she would call or send me a very simple text. Now, a lot of people don’t have a friend like that, but I think they can develop a friend like that.
People Want To Help
Anne: There might be someone who goes to church with you, someone in your neighborhood, another woman maybe who has been through it, who you didn’t realize who could help you out. It’s scary to ask, but I have found that a lot of people say yes. I think the scariest part is actually asking.
Debra: It is. People will tell you, if you need anything, let me know. But they don’t know what you need. But they really do want to help. If you have a leaking faucet, someone wants to fix it for you. Someone wants to help you go over your documents. Someone wants to help you do those things. They don’t say that out of routine or ritual. They want to help. Because they just don’t know what you need.
Anne: I think another traumatic situation here is the person who used to fix your faucet. And the person who helped you with your legal documents is your husband. There’s this other element of I need help, and the person who is helping me isn’t here, and what do I do? I’m alone! Like, he used to fix the faucet. That is also really traumatic through this time.
Debra: It is because for your support, you need a coach, an attorney, a financial person. But you need to think ahead, so that you can keep yourself more centered and stable.
Anne: This is why you need all these people in your corner. Because you’re rightfully and normally reacting to a really, really hard situation when you’re preparing for divorce.
Debra: Exactly, it’s normal. Of course you are. Let’s get you set up for success.
Importance of Self-Care When You’re Preparing For Divorce
Anne: Because if you say you should be able to handle this, why can’t you read? Why can’t you blah, blah, blah. You’re just going to get more and more depressed and overwhelmed.
Debra: Right, yeah. Just to know that it’s normal. There are things you’re going to have trouble with. So how can we put measures in place to fill those gaps until you’re ready? And it might be a month, and it might be six months, but let’s think through who can help you. And that’s one of the things your taskmaster can do. Your taskmaster can find other people. Well, who can fix my faucet? Who can cut my grass? Who can do these things? Your taskmaster friend can do that.
Anne: What do you believe are the most important things for listeners facing a high conflict divorce to know ahead of time?
Debra: First of all, self care. When we’re going through a stressful time, one of our first tendencies is to cut back on self care. Because we have our normal life. Plus, now I have to fit in attorney appointments and financial appointments. And like I’ve added to my daily stress. And so we tend to cut back on self care, but what you need to do is double it. Because especially if you were in an abusive marriage, you developed coping mechanisms to get through the day with that partner.
Those aren’t going to work anymore during divorce, so you have to make sure your tank is full. So increasing self care is important. We talked about safe people and a support team. You cannot do divorce alone. It’s too hard. You’re too traumatized. So get the right people around you as you prepare for divorce.
Social Media Caution
Debra: Work on regulating your emotions so that you can make strategic decisions. Get the right help to process them. Vent to safe people. Because you want to make decisions you feel good about. Again, you may not get everything you want, but you at least want to feel empowered and informed. Shut down your social media. Block everyone he’s friends with. If his family supports him, block them, unfriend them. Don’t post anything. Live like a nun, especially if you’re going to be in a custody battle.
Anne: I could not agree more. I deleted all my social media accounts, and I would highly recommend that for people.
Debra: Don’t be out at a concert with a cocktail in your hand. Just don’t do it. Even though it’s fun and you want to show your friends that you went to the Jimmy Buffett concert, don’t do it. And then be careful of Switzerland friends. Those are people, they love both of you. He’s a great guy. We just want to be friends with both of you. No, absolutely not. And you don’t have to be cold or cruel about it, but take a step back. If you run in the same circles and you’re around them, just be very cautious what you say.
Don’t discuss your divorce. Don’t discuss your partner. We talked about Switzerland friends, shutting down your social media, those kind of things. If you don’t keep control of yourself and what you say and do, it could be used against you. So it can hurt your case. If you’re preparing for divorce you need to keep this in mine, if you act out or send that email or send that text. Those things could be used against you. So it’s not in your best interest.
Modeling Healthy Behavior
Debra: Other people can get hurt when you’re not managing your emotions, and specifically your children. It’s the hardest thing to model healthy behavior to your children while you’re under this stress. It’s the hardest thing you’ll ever do in your life. Yet it’s the most important thing. And then finally, and you talked about this, we can’t make good decisions when we’re crying, and we can’t think about it. And our brain isn’t working right.
So being able to maintain that sense of calm and clarity and focus on our purpose. Focus on the end game instead of living in the moment. Is critical to making good decisions as you prepare for divorce.
Anne: Did you watch Marriage Story?
Debra: I did. The emotion of it didn’t surprise me, the hurt, you know, the pain, the anger. What surprised me was how realistic their portrayal was of how our legal system creates litigious situations. When they don’t have to be.
Anne: It was interesting that he had an affair, so there’s a betrayal. I listened to Pop Culture Happy Hour. They reviewed it, and they were like, this is a situation where you’ve got a nice man and a nice woman, and this is how divorce goes. They didn’t weigh the betrayal at all. It carried no weight in terms of fault. Instead, they focused on the idea that the couple had grown apart or weren’t really compatible.
And I thought this is why so many women feel so betrayed in general. Because society in general doesn’t understand this. Although it showed the legal system well, I don’t think it got to the heart of the cause.
Preparing For Divorce: Common Themes
Debra: I agree. They glossed over the betrayal, and I think that’s just so indicative of culture. Culture says, eh, no big deal. Or culture says, well, you know, she wasn’t sleeping with him, so what’s a guy supposed to do? That patriarchal attitude is still so prevalent in society that nobody blinked at that.
Anne: I know, I thought the part where her attorney, Nora, said you have to be perfect, and he doesn’t have to be perfect. It was so spot on.
Debra: Spot on, the judges need to hear what they want to hear, and see. This is important as you prepare for the divorce, the judges and magistrates are looking for something from you, and you better present it.
Anne: Well, yeah, I mean, it’s so traumatic. There are so many reasons why divorce is so traumatic that it just overwhelms your brain, you know?
Debra: There are so many reasons, and they’re always individual. But there are three common themes: money, kids, and conflict. So often, women have been kept out of the loop in terms of finances, or stay at home moms or lower earners. And they’re worried, can they support themselves? They’re often worried about the impact this will have on their children. And they’re worried about the conflict, because we know that when we’re married to abusers, they don’t like to be told no.
Sometimes you have to pick your hard when we’re on the fence, and work through that decision. Because it’s also hard to stay married to an abuser.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Services
Anne: The thing that so many women appreciate about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Services is that our goal is to give women information. And then to validate and support them. So there’s never going to be a time when someone comes to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, where we say you have to get divorced. We give women the education they need, give them their options, and then help them assess what’s right for them. Can you talk about how Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches support women through making their own decisions?
Debra: The first thing a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach will do is help a woman seek peace and safety. So helping them observe their partner’s patterns of behavior, helping them set the boundaries they need. And determining if they need to set the next boundary, the next boundary, and the next boundary. So when the boundaries aren’t working and they have to set tighter or stronger boundaries, that’s when we start to see separation or financial separation or start to take those bigger steps.
And so when they get to that point, that’s when the word divorce starts coming up in their mind and they start thinking, Hmm, I wonder if this will have to be the next step I take. So you can pray your husband recovers. And simultaneously, get yourself knowledgeable about what it would look like if I took this other path toward divorce. And for many women, we go back and forth for a long time. When I prepare divorce, how will I know when it’s time to go?
Making the Decision to Divorce
Debra: You will have a crystalline moment of clarity. There comes for most women, a time when the heavens open up, a spotlight shines down, and you know, today’s the day. When that happens for you, when you have that moment of clarity, I want you to be ready and not afraid. So if we have all this information, you will be prepared for what divorce will look like, and you know what you’re stepping into.
When the heavens open and the spotlight shines on you, and you know today’s the day, you’ll simply nod your head and say, okay. I’m not scared.
Anne: And that day might never come.
Debra: It might never. It might be next week, a year from now or it might never come. But if it does, you’ll be ready.
Anne: There are so many things that those who have gone through divorce wish we had known long before we even started considering it. Because it would have helped prepare us. So at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, like I said before, our coaches are certified divorce coaches. They can help women anticipate things, and women can get assistance through group sessions or individual sessions. Can you talk about the difference between group and individual sessions here at BTR?
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaching Sessions Help You Prepare For Divorce
Debra: Sure, Betrayal Trauma Recovery group coaching could tackle a particular high level issue. For instance, can you give me a few tips on how to talk to a six year old about this? And so, in three or four minutes, a BTR coach might give a couple of high level tips about age appropriate conversation, great.
In an individual session, they can look at your finances. Look at your budget. Talk through a strategy to get back to work. They can help you make negotiation decisions, get into the meat of it. Talk about how to pick the right attorney for your case, who else you might need on your team. Like, they can dive into the details of your particular situation that probably aren’t appropriate for group. And so you can get really individual stuff there in order to prepare for divorce.
It makes a big difference to actually look at your spreadsheets and numbers, especially if you haven’t been involved in your finances. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions can educate you about some of that.
Anne: Exactly, and some of that’s kind of DIY in the Living Free Workshop, or if you need help implementing those strategies, you can do Group or Individual Sessions.
So, if a woman is listening and she thinks divorce might be in her future, what are some of the first steps that she should take?
Debra: The first thing I want to say is what you shouldn’t do. Please do not tell your spouse. I don’t want you to put that out there until you can get educated about it in the workshop. Just make sure you aren’t deciding not to divorce, because a fear that’s not rooted in truth is standing in your way.
Financial Preparation
Debra: A woman who lived in the San Francisco Bay area where it’s expensive. She thought I can never ever afford to leave. There’s no way. I’m miserable, I want to leave, but I can’t afford to. And when she looked at the numbers, her budget was only short a thousand dollars a month. Then she thought, I can find a way to earn two hundred and fifty dollars a week. So is that fear holding you back?
Make sure it’s not a false fear that’s holding you back. I’m not trying to get you to decide, I just want you to have truth. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s all about truth. All truth all the time.
Anne: Yeah, and it’s painful, especially when so many of us come from a religious background. So it feels like maybe “betraying” our husband. I’m going to say that in quotes, because obviously we’re not, because he betrayed us. Also in so many ways it feels like we’re betraying God.
Debra: So that’s another one of those fears. Decide to face our fears. See if they’re real. Because regardless of the conflict and regardless of the parenting. For the most part, divorce is breaking a legal contract about money. That’s what many decisions will be about. That’s what the law is written about. So, understand the money involved as your preparing for divorce.
Do you have access to your tax returns, your husband’s pay stub, or W 2? Do you know how much is in your retirement account? How much your house is worth? What’s the balance on your mortgage? Do you know what your monthly expenses are? It’s good to have the financial information before you consult with an attorney, so that an attorney can estimate of spousal support and child support.
Telling Your Husband
Debra: That’s what we need to help fill in our budget. If one of your fears is, well, I’ve been a stay at home mom, I don’t think I can support myself. Well, then the income line in your budget will be mostly child support and spousal support. So that’s important information to know. So gather some of the financials before you consult with an attorney. That way, that meeting will be much more productive for you.
Anne: If a woman decides she wants to divorce, she’s prepared. She’s worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach. She’s done everything she needs to do, and she’s ready to do it. When is the right time to tell her husband that she wants a divorce?
Debra: You are an expert on your husband. One of the preparation steps, and you’ll go through this in the workshop, is setting up a bank account. And making sure you have emergency funds, because a dirty divorce trick abusers like to play is move their paycheck and not give you access to any money. So if you think that’s the case, you tell him the same day you file the paperwork.
Anne: So many women in our community, me included, did not think our husband was like that. And then we found out that he is like this. It was shocking to us during the divorce process. Like in my case, he shut down our bank account. And really, the abuse starts to be very overt. Where perhaps, before it was covert. For me, it was shocking and upsetting, but it was also like, I guess, I made the right decision.
Prepare For Divorce: He might Be More Abusive
Debra: It’s confirmation, yeah.
Anne: Yeah, because it was like, whoa, when divorcing an abusive husband, he’s getting more and more deliberate and harmful through this, not less. And it will hurt you, but you can also think, Oh, okay, this is another sign that I’m making the right decision.
Debra: We, as women, have such a tendency to wait until the bullets start flying before we put on our armor. And I want women in abusive relationships to know, if he says, don’t worry, I’m going to be fair. Don’t worry, I’ll always take care of you and the kids. If this is a person who’s been deceiving you for a decade, I’m not sure we should take that statement at face value. Let’s prepare for divorce and assume it’s not true. And if it turns out that he negotiates in good faith and takes care of you, that’ll be a bonus.
Anne: Because this is someone who looked you straight in the eye and said, of course, I’m faithful to my marriage vows and had an affair.
Debra: Let’s just make sure we have on our Kevlar vest just in case. So the best time to tell him is when it’s done. This is another thing a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach can help with is preparing you for that conversation. One alternative is not to have the conversation. If you are already separated, you can simply file and have him served. If you want to have the conversation, the conversation is very simple. It’s, this is a decision I’ve made, it’s what I need to do for me.
The Decision I Made For Me
Debra: When he rails against it, you can say, I hear you’re mad, I hear you’re upset, I hear this isn’t the way you wanted it to go. This is the decision I’ve made for me. He’s gonna throw accusations at you, and you don’t need to defend yourself. You don’t need to explain why you chose to do it. Or you don’t have to tell him all the ways he hurt you. You simply repeat, this is a decision I felt like I needed to make.
Anne: Yeah, because as I explained in the Living Free Workshop, if you try to explain it, or you’re hoping somehow, you can get some resolution with an emotional abuser like this. It’s not going to go that way. He’s going to use it to abuse you more.
Debra: Correct, we don’t mention divorce when we prepare until we are doing it. It is never a threat. It’s never an incentive. It’s never a punishment. So, this conversation is only a notification conversation. Then he may throw declarations, you’ll never get a penny, you’ll never see the children, I’m getting full custody, you’ll be homeless. Whatever these declarations are, my best response is to say, we’ll see, that’s it.
This is not a time where you’re going to negotiate, don’t fight back, don’t explain, you simply say, this is a decision that I feel like I need to make. If he throws those accusations or declarations out, you simply say, we’ll see, and that’s it. that’s the end of the conversation.
Anne: Yep, I learned the hard way, which was why I was so passionate about writing the Living Free Workshop. Because I didn’t want any other woman to learn the hard way.
The Living Free Workshop
Anne: But I totally get it. If you’re listening and you’re like. I don’t want to do the Living Free Workshop. I’m not interested in learning about this. I get it. Because I was there for a long time too. In my own experience, I just wish I had known what I know now. That’s all. And that’s why I want to share it with you. Especially because the strategies in the Living Free Workshop feel so counterintuitive. It’s not like anything a therapist will tell you or anybody else. It’s completely different.
Debra: Yes.
Anne: Can you go deeper about why it’s important to work with someone who understands this abuse dynamic when they’re getting a divorce. Instead of just getting support from like a regular therapist, or even trying to get emotional support from your attorney or sister?
Debra: I just demonstrated one of them, helping you plan for that conversation so that it goes well and you can stay as safe as possible in that conversation. If you let your emotions, or your amygdala, your fight, flight, or freeze, reflex, drive what you’re doing in the divorce. You won’t fare as well. If a coach can keep you calm and emotionally regulated, so that you can make informed strategic decisions. You will do a lot better emotionally, financially and relationally.
You’ll be a better mom through the process. You’ll help your kids navigate the process better. Your attorney is not an expert on the emotions in divorce. They’re an expert in the legal process.
Anne: Many women want to talk to their attorney a lot, getting validation from their attorney. Or even want their attorney to be their therapist, which is an expensive way to go.
Debra: Just to say that. They’re better at supporting women in trauma when they prepare for divorce. An attorney is not skilled at it, trained at it, and they haven’t been through it.
Anne: Don’t look to your attorney for emotional support or validation or anything like that. It’s not what they’re trained to do, and it will be frustrating and extremely expensive.
Debra: And they won’t help you be a better mom, stay grounded, and make the best decisions for you. They’ll tell you what the law says about how it works. Mediation can be a decent choice, but you have to be prepared for that. And you need someone strong in your corner helping you prepare for mediation.
Debra: I love it. I love it. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is an amazing organization. it’s what I wish I’d had.
Anne: Yeah, me too.
Cleanbrowsing DNS – How One Mom Protected Her Children Online
Apr 05, 2022
Victims of betrayal desperately want to protect their families from harmful material. Cleanbrowsing is one way to filter your internet to keep your family safe.
Transcript: Cleanbrowsing DNS – How One Mom Protected Her Children Online
Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, this is Anne.
I have Daniel Cid with me today. He is the founder of Cleanbrowsing and I’ve asked him on to help me resolve my router issues, in regard to how do I protect my router at home. Then we’ll also be talking about how to protect our families a little bit more. We are very happy to have him on, welcome Daniel.
Daniel: Thank you, glad to be here.
Anne: Daniel tell me about how Cleanbrowsing started?
Daniel: To explain how we started, I’ll have to go back just a little bit further in my life, just to give you some more context.
I’ve been working with computer security pretty much my whole adult life. As a software engineer my main job for many years was actually helping people in companies respond to computer crime and hacking incidents and using software to improve their security. That got me to see a lot of the bad part of internet. And that made me really paranoid about how we use computers and how we can protect ourselves while you’re online.
Safe Browsing Is Cleanbrowsing
Going back 3 years ago, my oldest child, he was 8 years old, he wanted an ipad, an iphone, a laptop, everything. We thought that a laptop would be a safer way for him to get started online. For him to learn about tech, about coding. We had to pay much closer attention to proper content. How about things like exploitative material, extreme violence. I didn’t want any of my kids to have any exposure to that. I wanted to provide them a clean and safe browsing experience. That’s where the name came from, Cleanbrowsing. I wanted them to get the beauty part of the internet without the dirty side of it.
Back then I tried a bunch of tools and none of them actually did what I thought they were supposed to. In fact, even some of the most popular at the time, didn’t do the basics of even enforcing safe search on Google. So, you went to Google and type in bad words and you’d see all the dirty images.
Cleanbrowsing Helps Families
That didn’t give me confidence at all that I could give to my child, let’s say a laptop, and he’d be able to use the web safely, right? I kind of decided well, I’ll try to build something better. Something that I can use for my own family.
Going into just a little bit technical right. I visited every website on the internet and tried to identify if any website had nudity, had indication of violence content, had exploitative material, curse words. It’s kind of similar to identifying and looking for malware, but I was looking for these other variables.
Anne: So, basically, you’re like a super genius?
Daniel: No, I’m not a genius at all, I just love security, just love to code, and I love to solve problems. And I felt something that struck deep down to me. I was like no, that’s something I need to solve for myself and if I am having this problem I assume a lot of parents are having the same problem. I just start scanning every website in the world and tagging them. Easy site PG, easy site PG13, easy site safe for work, not safe for work. And that’s kind of like how we started 3 year ago.
Cleanbrowsing Can Be Easy
I connected Cleanbrowsing to this engine, this database, so that every time that you tried to use the website your browser does what we call a DNS request. So, for example, if you try to visit, let’s one of these sites, you get an error saying sorry this site doesn’t exist in your browser. So, that’s kind of like how Cleanbrowsing works and how we came to be. Sorry for the long answer.
Anne: No that’s awesome.
For a site like mine that mentions the word pornography, as we’re trying to help people protect their families, would a site like mine somewhat geared toward online infidelity and cheating come through if you were using Cleanbrowsing on your router?
Daniel: Yeah, it would be allowed because on our categorizer it tries to identify what’s really a harmful site and what’s just, for example, an educational site or church site that’s helping people with an addiction. It really tries to be smart about that. Whenever we find an error we go in and manually fix it because your site is allowed of course, and many others that talk about it; sex education, phases of addiction, they’re allowed.
Anne: Ok, fantastic.
Well I am excited! Daniels actually going to help me put it on my router, you can listen as we go through that process if this is interesting to you. Just prepping everybody. But before that let’s talk about who should use it. Who should put Cleanbrowsing on their router?
Cleanbrowsing Is Helpful For Safe Internet Use
Daniel: I would say that pretty much anyone that cares about having a clean and safe browsing experience should use it. For example, if you have kids and you don’t want your kids seeing adult content you should use on your kid’s devices. And even if you’re an adult, your trying to use the web but don’t want to be worried about what might pop out in a sight you visit. That gives you a really good confidence that what you are visiting is actually clean and safer. I’d recommend to anyone that cares about a clean experience online.
Anne: Everybody, hopefully, everyone should use it.
Daniel: I use my software and I use it on my kid’s devices.
Cleanbrowsing In Action
Anne: Daniel is now going to walk me through how to setup Cleanbrowsing on my device and I use a NetGear Nighthawk, so we’ll be giving the instructions specifically for that, but because the instructions are different for every router and every device, you’ll want to go directly to Daniel’s website. It’s called cleanbrowsing.org and you can get the instructions on how to set it up on your router. Daniel provides this for free for everyone!
We’re going to walk through mine right now. Okay, Daniel, I’ve got a NetGear Nighthawk router and I tried to do it myself but ran into a little trouble.
Cleanbrowsing Is Great For A Family
Daniel: Sure, sure. The first thing you need to do is that if you’re trying to do that at your home, you need to get the login access to your router. Every router has a username and password. If you have that then you’re halfway done to get this thing done. Do you have your username and password for your router?
Anne: What I do have is NetGear Genie. Is that what you’re talking about? Like, I can log in to NetGear Genie.
Daniel: If you’re using NetGear, you have to type in your browser routerlogin.com or routerlogin.net and they’ll bring up the router administration page.
Anne: Ok, let me see if I can login to this.
Daniel: But just saying, generally configuring the router is the most complicated step. If you’re trying to configure it on a Mac or on Windows it’s always a lot easier. On the router, each one is different. Each router has different settings so it’s never as easy to do on the router than on the personal device. But the benefit from doing the router is that you cover your whole house, for example, at my house I have Xbox, I have ipads, I have laptops. Its covers everyone. We don’t have to go into each device separately.
Cleanbrowsing Can Help Ensure Safety
Anne: One thing that helped me is that I took a picture with my phone of my router’s password and my model number and my serial number and everything like that. That way I don’t have to keep looking on the back of my router, trying to figure out what the numbers are.
I have had to reset this password a lot of times. Is that a complaint that you get from a lot of people who use NetGear.
Daniel: No, not really, no. It’s not as clean of an experience as it should be, and each router is different. I wish there was an easier way to better cross the home. Depending on the router, you just have to login, then we have to find the settings, then change the DNS there.
Anne: Okay, now it’s telling me what my right password is because I’ve reset it. Again, listeners as you’re hearing this real time and you are bored to tears. I wish I had a drum roll sound.
Anne: It worked! I’m in.
Okay, the first thing it says is enable circle with Disney. Should I say no?
Daniel: No for now, yeah, while we’re configuring it.
Anne: Okay, I am in!
Daniel: Perfect.
Anne: For our listeners if you have NetGear it’s routerlogin.com and then if you need to reset your password you can. Otherwise, that’s where you’re supposed to be.
Okay, next step.
Cleanbrowsing Can Keep Children Safe
Daniel: The next step is you need to look for, I think it’s a tab called internet. See if you can find it there. And then at the bottom you should see an option that’s called domain name server, DNS addresses. Do you see one? It should have 2 options. One of them is get automatically for your ISB and the other should be use those DNS servers, right? You need to change from get automatically from your ISB to use those DNS servers.
Anne: Got it. Okay, now on that I’ve got 2 options. A primary DNS and a secondary DNS.
Daniel: We have 2 DNS servers so it’s 185.228.168.168 and the second one is 185.228.169.168
Anne: Okay. So now I am entering these in. People who are listening. You cannot copy and paste into this. You have to type it in.
Daniel: If you go to our main website, cleanbrowsing.org, and you see the getting started page, it will explain the steps. And notice that you have two filters. One is the family filter that is kind of aggressive, so it blocks all adult content. It also enforces safe search on Google, Bing, and it also enforces Youtube restrict mode. So, it restricts some features on Youtube. It also blocks comments on Youtube. It also blocks all mixed content sites, which are sites that have both adult content and some good content. So, for example, Reddit gets blocked on the family filter.
Now, the adult filter is a bit less aggressive. It only blocks adult content and enforces safe search. It doesn’t block those mixed content sites. So, you always have those two options.
Internet Safety Involves Many Layers
Anne: Okay, awesome. So, the ones that I just entered in, is that for family filtering or?
Daniel: That’s the family filter. It’s the most aggressive one.
Anne: Give me the most aggressive one. I love it. As long as it doesn’t filter out BTR I’m happy.
Daniel: No it won’t.
Anne: Perfect. Okay, so I’ve changed that. Now do I need to push apply?
Daniel: Click apply and that’s pretty much it. You probably need to wait between 10-15 minutes for Cleanbrowsing to actually start working on your computers because the router gets the setting and then every 10 minutes the computers refresh its own settings and downloads the DNS settings again from the router. So, after 10-15 minutes you’ll have a clean and safe browsing experience.
Can Cleanbrowsing Help Keep The Internet Safe?
Anne: Previous to taking to you, I had applied the settings on open DNS and that is where I tried to protect my router. What’s the difference between cleanbrowsing.org and open DNS.
Daniel: Open DNS was actually one of the tools that I tried back then 3 years ago. Open DNS does some of the basic filtering, but it had so many holes that I didn’t feel it was safe enough for my family. So, it open DNS and you go to Google and you do a search for whatever keyword you want to search you’re going to see all the images on the pages of Google, right. And on Cleanbrowsing I tried to cover and protect all those holes so there is no way for your kids to see bad images on Google or Bing or even Youtube and other places. We tried to cover all the angles.
Anne: Awesome. And because it’s on the router it works with every device that hooks into our wifi in our home, right?
Daniel: Yes, correct. And that’s the beauty of it because now the kids have so many devices, so many things going around online, everything now is online, right. Even your fridge might be tried to go online soon. Doing it at the router kind of covers the whole house.
Internet Safety Is Important For Family Safety
Anne: Yeah, we talked about it with Sam Black from Covenant Eyes that these are layers of swiss cheese. Every layer that we put on might have a hole, but if we layer them on top of each other and include making sure that we talk to our children about exploitative material. That we make sure that we educate them. Use books like Protect Young Minds.
A book which is called Good Pictures/Bad Pictures. Use some of the materials from Educate and Empower Kids, How to Talk to Your Kids About Pornography. I had Kristen Jenson on in an episode called How To Protect Children From Online Abuse. I just showed my children some videos, for example, about what it does to their brain. All of these different levels of protection are really important. So, from your perspective, do you have any more tips besides the things we’ve talked about today to be safe online? Besides applying this filter to our routers.
Cleanbrowsing Helps You Create A Safe Home
Daniel: Yeah, in terms of being safe online. But, what you’ve mentioned kind of covers pretty much everything right there. It’s always about specially using really good anywhere you go, and if your giving your child even a laptop they should not be the administrator of the laptop. It should only be you, because if they’re the admin, then it opens the door for them to bypass some of your settings. So, choose good passwords and use a password manager if possible.
Be careful what you visit online because good browsing hygiene is important because even with Cleanbrowsing if you’re going to dirty places and you’re searching for things you shouldn’t be searching, then it may lead you to things you shouldn’t be seeing, right. So, try to follow good browser hygiene and checking things before you go, and using a good password manager. I think those are good, especially for kids. Force them to use their laptops and their devices in the open.
Don’t allow the kids to hide in their room or under their bed to use their ipads, you know. We want to be seeing what they’re seeing and staying, close to them, checking their browsing history whenever you can. Especially if they are young, right. So, you’re always aware of what’s going on, who they’re talking to, and what they’re doing.
Internet Browsing Should Be Safe And Clean
Anne: I’m trying to implement these things now in my family and it was overwhelming at first, but now that I’ve started doing it, like put Covenant Eyes on all my devices, and now I’ve done this, and using Guided Access, for example. So, I know for the next half hour my daughter is going to be playing this game, but she can’t click out of it and she can’t go anywhere else, right. Then I know that this particular game is safe and it’s teaching her letters, for example, or is teaching her numbers. So, I know she’s safe in there and she can’t go anywhere else.
Still learning how to do that, it’s kind of time consuming at first. I think: Oh, I’ll just turn this on for her and I won’t turn on Guided Access sometimes, and I think: No, I have to do that, I have to make sure she’s protected.
Daniel: Yeah, it’s really cause those tools are now so easy to use. The ipads are so easy to use. The computer is so easy to use, but if you want to do it safely and do it securely, it also requires those extra steps. We need to learn what it offers and how to get it properly. I think it’s just part of being online and you need to take care of those things.
Anne: I think too that if I make it a habit, like I lock my doors every night before I go to bed, or I turn off my lights, or something like that. If I make it a habit these are the habits that we have online, then it’s much more likely that I’ll be able to protect my children online.
Cleanbrowsing Must Be Implemented As A Tool
Well, I appreciate the hard work that you did to provide this amazing tool free to the world. What a blessing. Thank you so much for creating this.
Daniel Thanks for trying it out and I just want to add something. It’s free for everybody to use, but a couple months ago we added a paid option. It’s now being used by quite a few schools and businesses because they wanted an additional level of controls. For example, there were some schools that said: Hey, I love your tool, but we also want to block gaming. That’s pretty awesome, because those are now supporting the project so everybody can have their free filters, but if the schools or a business needs some additional level filtering they can also buy the page for additional control and more visibility of what’s going on.
Anne: Awesome. So, to check out those options go to cleanbrowsing.org
Daniel, thank you so much for taking the time to come on my show today.
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Can In-Home Separation Help Me? – Lindsay’s Story
Mar 29, 2022
Lindsay, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community shares her experience doing an in-home separation, Lindsey offers valuable insight to empower listeners. If you need support, learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.
Why Choose In-Home Separation?
Sometimes women want to separate themselves from their abusive husband’s behaviors, but for one reason or another can’t physically move to another space.
In-home separations offer temporary safety (if your husband respects the separation agreement), while not causing financial strain on the family.
Further, in-home separations can preserve the current family dynamic if children are struggling to adapt to a more intense separation.
An in-home separation is rarely a situation that a couple can/wants to maintain long-term. Eventually, the abusive husband will choose to change and become non-abusive and honest, or will simply continue on the destructive path of betrayal and abuse. When your in-home separation isn’t providing you with the safety that you deserve, it may be time to ask your husband to move out, for you to move out, and/or consider filing for divorce.
It’s important for victims to understand that abusive men hitting benchmarks (going to therapy, attending support groups, etc.) does NOT mean that they are changing. As women become empowered, they are better able to understand what real change looks like.
Transcript: Can In-Home Separation Help Me?
Anne: I have my friend with me today, Lindsey, not her real name. She’s actually here in my basement where I record. I was talking to a woman at a conference and she said, I wasn’t meant to live one day at a time. And I thought that’s so true. Like I want to be able to plan. I want to be able to have peace. I want to be able to have emotional safety. There are obviously painful things that happen. No matter how hard we try, we can’t avoid them.
The Concept of Betrayal Trauma
Lindsay: Because whether it’s betrayal trauma or whether it’s a child dying, whatever your trial is, that is way too hard. It’s not fair.
Anne: Yeah. What about your situation left you feeling hopeless
Lindsay: When I discovered that there’s this thing called betrayal trauma. On top of that, not just betrayal trauma, but also there is secondary trauma and it’s real. You can have secondary trauma from ecclesiastical leaders, from therapists, therapists out there, resources out there that claim we help with betrayal trauma and yet they don’t.
Lindsay: It’s real and yet I have nowhere to turn because I don’t know who is safe.
Anne: Since then, have you developed a system where you can feel like, when you can’t trust your husband. This is how I would know if someone’s safe or not?
Lindsay: Mainly trusting my gut. I mean, learning to trust myself and to trust God. When I feel safe, I feel peace. And if there’s something that isn’t safe or that feels off, it’s almost like a little flag goes off in my brain that says, wait, this is either totally unsafe or I just need to learn more. Ask some more questions and figure out what’s going on. Because sometimes people say things in a way that is unsafe, but they didn’t intend to say it that way.
Anne: Like me! I did all the time. In fact, right when Lindsay got here, she was like, look at this new pamphlet! And I was like, ah! They took the word abuse off! And I went on a, what, how long was it? Maybe four minute rant about how mad I was that they removed the word abuse. And then I was like, I gotta calm down. I said a prayer, and I’m feeling fine now. And do you feel safe now?
Lindsay: Absolutely.
Anne: But I bet while I was on the rant, you were like, Oh, this can’t be good. Right? You were kind of like, Oh, no, we can’t record with her like this. And I was recognizing it.
Triggers & Emotional Reactions
Anne: It’s funny, it’s funny when I get triggered. I don’t know if you think it’s funny when you get triggered. When I get triggered, I think it’s funny because I can see it. I’m like oh, I know I’m doing this and I have to make that mental shift to say what would be the most helpful thing to do right now? So I apologize that I went on my rant.
Lindsay: It’s been helpful for me to reevaluate my perspective on life. It’s really a hard process to do, that is to say, I am questioning everything. Thinking about what I understand about my world, my higher power, relationships with my family and with my friends. Yet that process of questioning has been, in a lot of ways, very healing for me. I can feel the growth that I’ve had over the last two years.
Anne: Yeah, that’s what I experienced too. And I loved that. Looking back, I didn’t so much like it when I was going through it.
Lindsay: Absolutely not. It’s so hard.
Anne: It was miserable.
Growth Through Hardship
Anne: But looking back, I’m like, wow, I have changed and I have grown so much, and I’m still growing.
Lindsay: Absolutely.
Anne: It’s almost like the growth happens in this other place, and then you look back. You’re like, whoa, I changed. How did that happen?
Lindsay: It happens in a way that I didn’t expect. I don’t see it coming and and then it happens and it’s this beautiful amazing thing. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. One thing that I love about this process is you talk about sweeping my side of the street. It’s totally not about that because that can be a really dangerous metaphor to use. If you take that out and you just say this isn’t about my side of the street it’s taking the situation that is already happening.
About awful, terrible, ugly, hard, painful and saying, I can either sit here and live in the unmanageable. Live in it, and that’s okay to do, or I can take it and give it purpose. I can take my suffering and give it something meaningful.
Pain With Purpose
Lindsay: Pain with purpose is much more tolerable than pain that’s totally meaningless. Viktor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning, it’s this idea that if I don’t have any reason, this pain is just happening, and it’s just going to keep happening, and there’s no reason for it, and I can’t do anything about it. I mean, I’ll go crazy. I will. And I may still go crazy.
Anne: You’re not crazy yet.
Lindsay: But to have purpose to it, and for me to say, no this is not my fault. It’s not fair and I can’t control it, but with God, I can make something beautiful out of it.
Anne: Because everything that I have now, my children, my house, BTR that I founded is because of what I went through.
https://youtu.be/ZcCaYcaS5eA
I would not have anything else. It’s everything that I love and care about and hold dear to my heart now. I’m super grateful that I went through it because there’s no way I could do what I do without it. People who haven’t been through it have a hard time wrapping their head around the realities of what happens. I also think it’s super cool how for all of us who have been through this, to be able to understand each other and empathize with each other, but also disagree.
Lindsay: Absolutely.
Anne: And have different experiences. That certain things are helpful for some people that aren’t helpful for others. And leave a space open for that.
Anne: Knowing that emotional health looks pretty much the same. Honesty, accountability, kindness, you know, all that stuff looks the same, but we can get to it from many different ways.
In-Home Separation Experience
Anne: So on the topic of in-home separation, which some women may use to establish safety. Lindsay has done both an in-home separation and now is separated out of her home. Can you tell us why you felt unsafe in your own home?
Lindsay: So when he went through two months of acting out behavior without disclosing it to me, that’s when I felt unsafe and knew I needed to change something.
Anne: Did you feel unsafe before you found out he was lying to you, or was there something in your gut that you knew was wrong and you just didn’t have quote unquote evidence until you found out?
Lindsay: I definitely felt uneasy, that’s for sure, and I knew that he wasn’t communicating with me, but until I really had the direct evidence, I didn’t want to move forward yet. And it was only a matter of months.
Anne: So once you determined that you felt unsafe and that your husband’s behaviors were unsafe, mainly that he had been lying to you, why did you choose an in-home separation for your boundary at that time?
Lindsay: At that time, I knew I felt unsafe and I knew that something needed to change. It was actually Almost a month between me knowing that there was dishonesty happening and me actually coming to the conclusion that an in-home separation was the boundary that I wanted to move forward with, mostly because I just didn’t know what to do.
How Can An In-Home Separation Help In Situations Of Abuse
Anne: I’m going to talk about safety for a minute.
A lot of women listening might think, okay, he was lying to you and so you felt unsafe. Were there any other evidences that you felt unsafe. Which there doesn’t need to be, but I want to talk about this because a lot of women think, well, he’s not yelling at me. He’s not punching walls. He’s not screaming in my face.
So, yeah, I’m safe. When emotionally they might not be safe because they’re trusting someone or they’re interacting with someone who’s lying to their face. Talk about how you came to realize that you deserved more than just, well, he’s not yelling at me.
In-Home Separation Is A Boundary
Lindsay: My husband is in a lot of respects, a good husband and a good father to my children. You know, he’s respectful. He helps around the house, does all the right things on the surface. He doesn’t put me down. Obviously, the lying is abuse in and of itself. But for me, it was just these little red flags. Each one of those in and of itself isn’t totally wrong. But when you look at the big picture and you look at red flags like not communicating. He’s not telling me what he’s thinking.
Anne: So at the time when you’re telling your family, I don’t feel safe. I’m going to have an in-home separation. Were they like, why don’t you feel safe? I’m confused. What is he doing?
Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, even to this day, it’s something that I’m not sure I have words to capture exactly what it means. Which is hard because in a certain sense, you want to feel justified when you’re talking to your family or when you’re talking to your friends about the actions that you’re taking. And so that’s been a struggle.
It’s kind of a back and forth and just a continuing conversation with my parents, with my siblings, with other people who are aware of what’s going on. Just trying to share with them how I’m feeling. When I do come across podcasts or if I come across a quote that I feel captures what I’m feeling, I’m more inclined to share that with them to help communicate, but it’s hard.
In-Home Separation Allows Time For Observation
Anne: Do you feel like you’re better at communicating how you feel now than when you first started the in-home separation?
Lindsay: Yes and no. In some ways, obviously, I’ve definitely grown and read more, listened to more. But in other ways, no. It’s still something that’s hard to describe to somebody who hasn’t experienced it themselves. For me, one of my personal boundaries for myself has been to say, it’s okay for me to not be able to describe what I’m feeling to somebody. That’s okay. It doesn’t mean that my feelings are unjustified.
Anne: Both that and then also, it’s okay that I can’t explain all my reasons why I feel unsafe. But my decision to set a boundary I don’t have to justify it to other people. It’s okay. It’s just a tough position to be in.
Lindsay: Yeah
Anne: So you were doing an in-home separation for how long?
Lindsay: About a year.
Anne: Okay. And during that time, all you could see is he doesn’t seem to be interested in meetings or therapy, and that was your indicator that you were probably unsafe? Because you’ve got somebody with a history of lying to you and someone with a history of infidelity.
Lindsay: Exactly.
Indicators Of Abusive Behavior
Anne: Okay. I’m thinking right now that those of us who can clearly see through their behavior, right, they’re very irritable, are kind of lucky, maybe? I mean, not, but yes. Behavior can be more extreme. But the weird thing is, it doesn’t mean you’re in any less danger from being lied to.
Anne: And the spectrum of these abusive behaviors is so vast. It can look so different. Okay. So, you’re doing an in-home separation for about a year. You’re living upstairs and he’s living in the basement. I am personal friends with you, in the same area. So I know you’ve been making an effort to have friends come over in the evening when you’re lonely, and you’ve just been learning new skills on how to navigate a life where you’ve been separated in your home.
Then you find out he’s been lying again, he’s been using exploitative material again. We’re already doing an in-home separation, so now what do I do? Talk about how you felt in the process that you went through to determine what steps to take next.
Red Flags During In-Home Separation
Lindsay: I actually need to back up a little bit, because that process started a little bit before I knew that he was lying to me. I had some other pretty bad experiences. Big indicators that something was really wrong.
Anne: Can you tell us what those were?
Lindsay: I had a conversation with him shortly after one of his therapy appointments. He was on his way out the door, so it was not a good time to be talking, but I had just asked him about how his therapy went.
He was sharing with me about being in a slump and had shared that with the therapist. The therapist was working with him on determining his motivation for recovery, trying to do pros and cons of working recovery. Then he shared a question that the therapist had asked him, how long do you think this is sustainable to stay in this slump? He told me that his answer to the therapist had been something like, Well that depends on my wife.
Anne: That depends on Lindsay.
Lindsay: Yeah. And I was like, oh, that’s not okay with me. I don’t know if I could put words at the time to why that wasn’t okay with me, but that did not feel right.
I want his recovery to be his own. for him to be motivated to do it for his own well being. Not to work recovery as long as I’m not making his life unbearable or harder.
Anne: Yeah, so it’s like well if she doesn’t bug me anymore then now then maybe forever. It just depends on Lindsay.
Considering Moving From In-Home Separation to Out-Of-Home Separation
Lindsay: It came across really as a big, big red flag for me. At that point, that was actually the first time that I had ever considered the reality or the possible reality of an out of home separation. And that scared me. It terrified me. So the thought had been planted a couple weeks before.
Anne: Before we go on, can you put in words why, if all other behaviors seem healthy, why lying and exploitative materials use to you is unacceptable?
Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely. The lying. It just is a really not okay foundation for any relationship, because if he’s lying about this, who knows what else he could be lying about. Yes, on the surface, the things that I see and experience seem to be okay, but who knows?
Anne: It would be interesting to see if someone else were in your situation.
Lindsay: Right? It would be so different.
Anne: If she was like, well, no, these things are really bad. These other things that maybe for whatever reason, you’re not recognizing or whatever. That would be interesting to know.
Lindsay: Yeah. Oh, I’m sure it would be very different.
Anne: Or if she was like, I agree. Who knows?
Pornography Is Not OK
Anne: Gail Dines was on the podcast. If you have not heard that episode, please listen to it. She’s amazing. She was saying, Women, even if nothing else is going on, you cannot accept this in a relationship, period. It is an abusive act and is not okay. This is what is exploitative about the whole industry. I’m proud of you for saying, even though I don’t exactly know how these behaviors are affecting me, I know that it is and I will not accept it. That is a really brave thing to do.
Lindsay: For me personally, exploitative material is something that goes against my values, my spiritual belief system. That has been very clear from the start. This is not okay. But I didn’t know that anything could be done about it. I was told by clergy what felt to me like contradictory statements. Like, recovery is possible, sobriety is possible, and yet addiction is going to be a lifelong thing. I didn’t get how those two things that felt to me like opposites could both be true.
Anne: It’s possible for him to change, but if he doesn’t, it’s actually possible for you, the victim, to find peace and happiness. It takes a long time to figure out what that looks like and how that’s going to go. They also get all caught up in the causes of sexual addiction.
Exploring Boundaries & In-Home Separation
Anne: Because these are unacceptable to you, then you start this process of determining what is my next step for safety. I’ve already done an in-home separation, and it seemed to work. It kept me safe for a little while, but it didn’t motivate him to change, which wasn’t your point. Your point was just to keep yourself safe.
Now you’re realizing, I’m not any safer. How do you decide that you need to increase your boundaries yet again? Because you’re still unsafe.
Lindsay: Yeah, that was a long thought process for me, because realistically, the boundary of an in-home separation has a wide range of levels of connection, even within that. I thought about it, and I realized I had pretty much explored that range at least as far as I knew how. We had a period of time fairly early on in the in-home separation where things were awful he was acting out every week and telling me about it.
Anne: When you say acting out you mean using exploitative material?
Lindsay: Yeah, so that was happening on a weekly basis. It felt to me like it was endless. That was really hard for me.
Low Contact During Separation
Lindsay: At that point in time, our in-home separation was very low contact. Like, I would very much schedule the times when I would be seeing him. It would be family dinner with the kids. Outside of that and maybe a few other things, I was pretty much saying, okay, text me if you’re going to walk through the upstairs. So I know that you’re walking through the upstairs.
Things like that where I would very much know where he was and where I was and that those were separate places. Versus when things were a lot better. We did spend time together, he still slept in the basement and I still slept upstairs. I still maintained my bedroom as my safe space. So he wasn’t going in my room. If I was in the room at all, ever. I had felt like I had explored that range.
Out of Options & Making Decisions
Lindsay: I felt like I was out of options. That’s a hard place to be because I don’t like making decisions from a place where I feel like there’s no other options. That was a place where I had to sit for a while to think about, okay, have I really explored all my options?
Anne: I think that’s really interesting because people don’t understand that women married to emotionally abusive men want the relationship to work. That they try every single option. Every single one. And it’s only when they are out of options that they think, alright, I have to do this because I’m out of options. Before, when you did the in-home separation, that seemed like the only option at the time, right? Or the best option.
Lindsay: It did seem like the best option. I did feel like I had a lot more options when I was making that decision.
Anne: What options were you considering at that time? You were considering an out of home separation, an in-home separation?
Lindsay: Honestly, I didn’t even consider an out of home at that time.
In-Home vs. Out-Of-Home Separation
Anne: So it was just options within an in-home separation?
Lindsay: Or just within a relationship where I could say, okay, I need to not go on dates or I need to have variations in the space? The amount of space that I have emotionally and physically.
Anne: Then when his abusive behaviors continue now you’re thinking, I’ve exhausted all those in-home separation options and now my only option is an out of home separation. Does this out of home separation include variations?
Lindsay: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because I know that there is a huge range of options in terms of does he still spend time at the house? Does he spend time with the kids? Is it really just a different place to sleep? Or is it like we’re living in different states? There’s a lot of options within that.
Lindsay: It felt like I was at one level and I was jumping up to like five levels higher in terms of, you know, my boundaries, yeah. And that’s a big jump to make.
Anne: I was talking with you while you were trying to make this decision. You would text me and call me and be like, am I thinking through this straight? Are these boundaries appropriate? What do I want to do? You finally decide, yes. I am going to ask him to move out.
Family’s Confusion & Judgment
Anne: Your family, again, was confused.
Lindsay: Absolutely.
Anne: They were like, why are you asking a perfectly capable, non violent man who holds down a job, who is active in our church, who is seemingly a good dad to move out? This is confusing to us. At that time, did they understand it? Any more or were they still baffled?
Lindsay: I don’t know if I can make a good judgment on that, honestly, because I was in such trauma myself. My perspective on what they were thinking and feeling is probably very skewed.
Anne: Eventually you move forward, regardless of what your perception of how other people felt. You’re currently separated with him out of the home.
Assessing Safety In Separation
Anne: How have you felt about your level of safety now? It’s so difficult to assess your safety in this situation because both scenarios feel unsafe. Having them stay in the home feels unsafe because they’re lying to you and using exploitative material and it just feels uncomfortable and it’s against your value system.
Then secondly, having your children’s dad move out, financial ramifications that this might cause, emotional ramifications, the fact that this could result in divorce. You’re not quite ready to consider if you should prepare for divorce. Which you don’t want, feels unsafe too. So it’s like, which “unsafe scenario” do I choose and why? The decision is very complex. It’s not easy at all. But since you asked him to move out, have you felt, generally speaking, more emotionally safe?
Lindsay: I would say I’ve felt more at peace. I don’t know if I would say more safe because realistically, I don’t know. I felt a lot of unease around asking for the out of home separation simply for the financial aspect of it. That was another reason why I hesitated for a long time. The conclusion that I came to, and it worked for us, this doesn’t work for everyone. I asked that he cover the cost with extra work. He come up with a cost so that it doesn’t dip into our normal finances.
That gave me a lot of peace going into it saying this is possibly temporary. It could be temporary. And if it is temporary and he does end up moving back in, we end up reconciling and our relationship moves forward in a healthy way. It’s not going to impact us negatively in terms of our financial future.
Husband’s Dishonesty & Expectations
Lindsay: My husband in particular, one of the roots of his dishonesty is he wants to fulfill people’s expectations of him. I made a very conscious decision. I’m not going to outline a plan for him. I’m not going to outline what I need to see. In order for this to be better.
Anne: Yeah, that’s exactly what I teach in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. That women don’t make a list of all the things they want to see, and I explain exactly why you don’t want to do that. The type of list that’s not going to help you get to safety would be something like, I need you to go to group every week, I need you to go to therapy every week, I need you to do this, I need you to do that. They can fake all of that. They can check off all those boxes, but it doesn’t mean anything.
It’s a good idea to just say, I don’t know. I’ll keep praying. keep pondering, keep observing and I’ll see how it feels. Yeah. as your friend, I feel like his behavior right now shows that he’s more concerned about his own comfort, than your safety. The stages of deliverance from abuse begin when you see the truth.
Lindsay: Well, absolutely. That’s why we’re in this place right now. That’s the heart of it.
Anne: Yeah. I’m mad. I’m mad because I’m your friend and I care about you.
The Long Process Of Healing
Anne: And this process to determine whether or not someone is going to actually learn and apply and practice and live healthy behaviors takes a long time.
Lindsay: It took me a while to come to terms with the fact. That simply because I had started to do my own healing didn’t mean that he has, that he’s ready, and he’s committed.
Anne: I think that’s why safety first is the best way to go. If you’re thinking, I need to establish safety for myself and for my home. And I don’t exactly know how to go about that, but safety is the top priority. I’m going to continue to set boundaries until I feel safe, whatever that looks like, then you’re never going to go wrong.
Lindsay: It’s my goal is to keep moving in that direction.
Conflict & Prioritizing Safety In Boundaries
Lindsay: One thing that I feel. maybe some caution around the word safety is the idea that any relationship, whether it’s marriage or just with a friend or a family member, you can’t expect there to be no conflict. You can’t expect there to be no risks. So I feel some caution around the word safety simply because I don’t want to be so focused on the goal of safety that I don’t open myself up to deep, meaningful loving relationships.
Anne: That’s interesting, because I don’t feel that way at all. I feel very safe with my close friends and family, but we’re getting in fights all the time. But it’s a safe space. I’m not abused. I’m not lied to, accused of things and not gaslit. Is there conflict? Totally, I’m very confrontational. As are many of the people around me.
Lindsay: That makes sense with your background and personality. For me, who I am naturally, I know this about myself, I’m naturally conflict averse. I’m careful about me pushing safety too far.
Anne: Or you confusing, I think might be the better word. Confusing safety and peace with a complete and total lack of conflict.
Lindsay: Maybe. Because safety can mean not being in pain, to some people.
Anne: For sure, but I wouldn’t say I’m in pain. I mean, I have conflicts that hurt my feelings or whatever, but it’s resolvable. With a safe person, you can resolve it. I guess what I’m saying is the pain can be resolved, not quickly, but like rather quickly. Like, if you get in a conflict, you can resolve it. Within a week, which is great. These other conflicts with your spouse or ex spouse are unresolvable.
Pain Of Growth in Relationships
Lindsay: I guess what I’m saying is, it’s not just like pain from getting feelings hurt, but I want to be open to the pain of growth. The growth in a relationship. That may come from conflict that lasts for a while.
Anne: Right, but that doesn’t mean you’re unsafe.
Lindsay: No. But to some people, and in some situations, the idea of being in pain, period, may feel unsafe. So, for example, in my relationship with my parents, I have a lot of growth to do there. I feel like that is the pain of growth, saying that, okay, I’m in pain. It’s okay for me to feel the pain of saying, I’m wrong sometimes.
Anne: Yeah, totally. But that again, safety is about, is this person lying to you? Are they trying to manipulate you? Are they hurting you on purpose to try and take the attention away from their unhealthy behaviors? So if the person is. genuine, they really genuinely care for you.
They’re not trying to manipulate you. Like my mom for example. I’ll just bring her up. She really wants me to do certain things and she tries to convince me in a lot of different ways. Could I call it manipulation? Maybe, but not really because she’s very direct about it. I don’t like those shoes you’re wearing. I don’t want you to wear them. Let me tell you the 17 reasons why they’re ugly. Then she’ll tell me that over and over and over. Right. And I’m like, I like those shoes.
Is Conflict Abusive?
Anne: She’s doing that because she genuinely loves and cares about me, which is so different than coming from a place of, I’m trying to hide things from you. Also I’m trying to make sure that you don’t confront me about my abusive behaviors. I think safety with people, even if there’s conflict, is totally achievable. So we can agree, we can maybe agree to disagree.
Lindsay: Absolutely. I’m definitely okay with that.
Anne: I’m like, wait a minute. No, you can get to safety. You really can.
Lindsay: I do believe that. I just know that from my perspective where safety has been a very unclear thing to me and to people who are around me, it can be misinterpreted very easily.
Anne: Maybe I need to go back and fix all my podcast episodes. Because I’m always talking about safety and people are like, well, that means that we never get in an argument or that means this. I’m like, no, it doesn’t. It’s never meant that. But I’m wondering now, are people interpreting this differently than, than how I intend it? Which they do all the time.
Does Safety Mean No Conflict
Anne: But that’s really interesting. There’s no way we can ever have a life free of fear or conflict. And actually we don’t want that. Right? Which would mean someone is lying or someone isn’t.
Lindsay: But I used to think that that’s what I would want. I used to think that if I was in conflict in a relationship that things were not okay. That relationship is not okay.
Anne: I think it depends on what you’re having a conflict about. You’re having a conflict about your shoes. Right. That relationship is fine. If you’re having a conflict about whether or not someone is stabbing people, that is not okay. It’s not going to be okay over here. What are your next steps? Are you feeling like you want to just settle into this?
Lindsay: No, I don’t. I don’t want to settle into this because this is not my ideal. So for me, on the relationship front, it’s a waiting game. Wait and see what happens. Right. See what he does, see how he acts. I don’t think I mentioned this earlier, so I’ll mention it now.
Trusting Higher Power For Guidance
Lindsay: The key to that, for me, is developing and keeping my relationship with my higher power, such that I feel like I can trust my higher power to let me know if something is off. Because realistically, I don’t know if he’s lying to me. I don’t know if he’s acting out. There’s a lot that I don’t know. However; I have had multiple key moments in my relationship with my husband where I know that my higher power has made me aware of things that I did not know.
Anne: Do you feel like your relationship with God, has improved over time?
Lindsay: I still struggle with connecting with my higher power on a regular basis. I still struggle with having the motivation to want to do the things that I know I need to do to keep that connection strong.
Boundaries & Out-Of-Home Separation
Anne: Boundaries are hard, especially having your husband move out is a very difficult boundary. If you could go back in time and talk to your younger self, to tell her some things about boundaries that you have learned. What would you tell her?
Lindsay: That it’s okay not to know what you’re doing. Because realistically, I don’t know that I would have learned the things that I needed to learn in order to set these boundaries any sooner than I did. Even if I told myself anything, any advice I could have given myself. And that’s okay. It’s okay to make mistakes. It’s okay to not have it down right now. It is something that’s gonna take time.
Anne: I agree. I am now such an expert at boundaries, but I didn’t set a boundary at all before my ex was arrested. That was God telling me, let me help you out. You clearly are having problems, and just let me do this for you. I feel like that’s what happened. Then I was like, thank you! I can breathe now, and then I could figure out how to set boundaries.
I’m just so grateful. It’s basically kept the boundary that God gave to me. Thank goodness. I don’t think I ever could have done it otherwise. Going back in time, I’d be like, you’re really, really bad at boundaries. That’s what I would have told myself.
Advice for Women Considering An In-Home Separation
Anne: For women right now who are considering a separation, either an in-home separation, or an out-of-home separation. Do you have any words of wisdom you could share with them?
Lindsay: I just know what I did. Reach out to somebody who may be a little bit ahead of you on the journey, and then the people that are right there in the trenches with you. It helped to talk it out. It helped me clarify what my thoughts were and my feelings were.
Also being open to guidance from my higher power. I can’t honestly say It’s something that I knelt down and prayed about because that’s just not the place I’m at right now, but connecting in other ways.
Anne: Yeah, this is a tough journey. It’s intense. It’s unpredictable. I think peace is a good goal to work toward. I do think it’s possible and boundaries make that possible.
Final Thoughts & Gratitude
Anne: I teach women how to create and hold healthy boundaries in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. A great big thank you to my friend, Lindsay. I’m so thankful for her. She’s a great example to me of someone who sets boundaries and is doing the best she can to be as healthy as possible.
I genuinely admire her and I’m grateful for her friendship.
Dating After Narcissistic Abuse – 9 Things To Look For
Mar 22, 2022
Dating after narcissistic abuse isn’t easy. I know because I’ve been there.
If you’re healing from narcissistic abuse and need place to share your feelings, attend a Before I started dating, I attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.
For me, dating after narcissistic abuse was a rollercoaster ride of emotions, from the initial shock of realizing what I’d been through to the gradual process of rebuilding my sense of self-worth and rediscovering what healthy love truly means.
I didn’t take things fast because I’d already been in an abusive relationship in college. I wanted to do things “right” this time. But you can’t do things right with a narcissistic abuser. Pretty soon, the patterns started to show, and I realized I was in an abusive relationship.
How to Spot Narcissistic Abuse: Identifying The Signs
Creating an environment where the victim has to walk on eggshells to avoid altercations and emotional abuse
Preparing to Date After Narcissistic Abuse
Before I started dating, I attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, where I realized that there are others who’ve been through similar experiences. Knowing that I wasn’t the only one was a huge source of comfort and validation.
Preparing To Date By Learning How To Set Boundaries
Eventually (for me, it was about a year), I decided I wanted to start dating again.
I decided to start by “dating myself.” It was a really fun process! And something I’d never done before. I’d take myself out to dinner, go on long walks, rent a movie, or take a night drive. I started journaling, which is something I’d never, ever done in my life. I even wrote myself love letters. 🙂
About six months into my “dating myself” era, I decided to start dating other people besides myself :).
New Relationships After Narcissistic Abuse
At first, it was really, really scary. I was terrified that I would find another abuser and end up repeating the cycle. So I pulled back and went back to dating myself again. But gradually, the desire came back and I put myself out there again.
My advice?
Going too fast too soon? Notice if they struggle to understand or care about your feelings or others’ emotions.
Do they seem like they were made just for you? Be wary if they constantly crave excessive praise or need to be the center of attention.
Trying to make you feel sorry for them? Watch out for signs they believe they deserve special treatment.
Do you feel like they just have a few things to learn, and they’d be amazing? Be cautious if you constantly make excuses for their behavior or believe they will change with time.
Weird moments where their reaction surprises you negatively, making you think you did something wrong (when you didn’t)? Check for signs of manipulation or attempts to control situations to their advantage.
Do they ask about you and your life, or is it just monologues back and forth?
Do they claim their ex was abusive or crazy?
Do you have a sense that things will get better, like when they graduate or quit their job? This is called Future Faking. Be cautious if they promise a better future without taking real steps towards it.
Emotionally draining, chaotic drama: Think about how you feel after hanging out with them. Do they leave you feeling exhausted or worn out?
Finding True Love After Narcissistic Abuse
Finding love after narcissistic abuse is possible. It may take time, patience, and a whole lot of self-love, but trust me when I say that you’re worth it. So take a deep breath, trust in yourself, and know that brighter days are ahead. You’ve got this.
Is Infidelity Abuse? What Most Therapists Won’t Tell You
Mar 15, 2022
Is infidelity abuse? Has he lied to you? Emotionally manipulated you? Here’s how to know if his infidelity was emotionally abusive to you.
To learn if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test.
Anne: It is humbling to welcome Dr. Omar Minwalla on today’s episode. Dr. Minwalla is a clinical sexologist and a licensed psychologist. We’re talking about, is infidelity abuse. Welcome Dr. Minwalla.
You’re careful in how you decide to label and define things. So can you start with some definitions?
Dr. Minwalla: Sure, let’s review how sex addiction is typically defined. Some professionals use compulsive sexual behavior. Some professionals use sex addiction. Either of those terms is used to describe a disorder related to behavior, where significant negative consequences occur.
With addicts, I realized patterns of interpersonal abuse. Another way of saying that is having a secret sexual life or world while you’re in a relationship or family. Is in and of itself, a form of abuse. In many ways, it’s type of sociopathic behavior. And what I mean is it’s a selfish worldview where often the welfare of others is not respected.
There’s often a lack of remorse or guilt. And there’s often an externalization of blame or responsibility. It’s in essence a long-term pattern of disregarding and violating the rights of others, particularly family members and your intimate partner. While sex addiction and compulsive sexual behavior focus on the behaviors themselves, they usually don’t have a clear diagnosis or labeling of the integrity, abuse, and relational conduct problems.
Anne: I talk with many people who say abuse is going too far. It’s making it way more serious than it needs to be. And I’m thinking without the label of abuse, it does not correctly express the severity of the situation.
Dr. Minwalla: You brought up a really good point, which is that some people feel it’s going too far. I trained as a clinical sexologist.
Clinical Terminology & Deceptive Sexual Life as Abuse
Dr. Minwalla: My training was in sexual offending and offenders. And one of the first things you learn in training is to use appropriate terms. And so, when there’s emotional abuse or psychological abuse. In terms of what we’re talking about, not using the word abuse is actually clinically inaccurate.
I think many sex addiction professionals receive training from an addiction perspective. And don’t have much training in abuse or how to treat perpetrators of any kind. So I think there is a tendency to consider using the word abuse as somehow overreaching, shaming the addict or demonizing the addict. The minute somebody has a deceptive, compartmentalized sexual life, and they’re in an intimate relationship or in a family system. That, in and of itself, is a form of abuse. Is infidelity abuse? It’s abusive in many ways.
First of all, to maintain a deceptive reality, one has to tell all sorts of lies and must, by nature, be dishonest in the relationship. So there are often patterns of lying or lying by omission. There are often partial truths. One of the most abusive aspects is that there’s often a lot of intentional manipulation of the partner’s reality. Which is sometimes referred to as gaslighting. It’s very damaging in terms of eroding and hurting her relationship with her gut instincts.
Impact on Gut Instincts & Erosion of Relationship Integrity
Dr. Minwalla: Usually somebody’s gut instincts can detect that there’s something going on, whether the person becomes conscious of it or not. Usually our gut instincts are somewhat aware. And in terms of gaslighting, if she confronts or brings something up. Then the abuser or the addict intentionally manipulates her away from that truth, and gets her to ignore her gut instincts.
That’s damaging to her gut instincts, which is a very important survival mechanism that we all need. We all need a good relationship with our gut instincts. So, this intentional psychological manipulation of a partner over many years can be extremely damaging to her gut instinct and her ability to use that to make good decisions.
Even just lying in a relationship is abusive. So if you have years and years of lying and maintaining a secret world while pretending to be honest in a relationship or in a family, that in and of itself is damaging. Whether the person knows about the secret sexual world or not.
The fact that there is a deceptive reality is already eroding and hurting the possibility that integrity can even exist in the relationship or in the family. Integrity is a fundamental attribute of a healthy relationship or family. So if somebody chips away or erodes the integrity of that system. The chance for healthy integrity to even exist is corrupted. And then there are also other types of abuses.
For example, is infidelity abuse? Having a secret sexual life diverts attention away from the relationship and away from the family. So there’s a lot of vital energy of nurture and care, love, time, financial resources, emotional resources, sexual attention that’s withdrawn from the relationship and going elsewhere.
Is infidelity abuse? Blaming the Partner: Risks & Consequences
Dr. Minwalla: There can also be a lot of blaming the partner sometimes explicitly. For example, if there’s problems in the relationship or problems with sexuality, the perpetrator might blame her. And make up reasons that she’s either overweight or controlling or unattractive, and those are just lies. The reason those things are happening is that there’s a secret sexual life going on.
It’s also sometimes taking huge risks. For example, someone might not have safe sex, but then come home and have unsafe sex with their partner. So, there are all types of harms that a person potentially engages in, like legal consequences or STDs. Is infidelity abuse? There are many things about having a secret life that are abusive.
Anne: There are, and having lived through it. That’s the best word I have found to describe it, and ignoring that or downplaying it is so dangerous to victims. At the very least, in all cases, he has abused his wife’s trust. It seems appropriate to include the word abuse and what the consequences of his abuse to her have been, like what she has suffered due to his behaviors. From my perspective, that’s the only way we can protect women and help them get to safety.
Dr. Minwalla: Yeah, if you leave the word abuse out, the victims aren’t recognized, because the abuse isn’t being recognized. It is a serious omission.
Therapists’ Role in Recognizing Abuse
Anne: One of the things that an “expert” told me was that the women she sees don’t identify as abused. So when they come in, they wouldn’t describe themselves as abuse victims. And I mentioned to her that I didn’t see that either. For seven years, I was trying to face what was happening in my life head on, not understanding what was happening to me. And so I would not have described it that way at that time.
What would you say to experts or therapists who say she’s not claiming abuse? She’s saying he’s a good guy, and he needs help to get his pornography problem under control.
Dr. Minwalla: In my experience, is infidelity abuse? The minute I use the word abuse and explain it as emotional and psychological. And explain exactly what I mean by that. I have never had a partner or spouse refute that or push that away. Quite the opposite. They usually start becoming very emotional, and often break down and start crying. They feel extremely validated, and they resonate with that term.
Normalization of Infidelity & Blaming the Relationship
Dr. Minwalla: Is infidelity abuse? We as a society don’t view infidelity or cheating as domestic abuse at all. So we’re all in some ways indoctrinated into normalizing that type of abuse. And it is very difficult for people to immediately think of domestic abuse when we’re talking about as cheating or infidelity.
That’s also a big explanation, I think, of why maybe even victims themselves are not used to seeing those types of behaviors or dynamics as domestic abuse. Because we’re all indoctrinated into a sort of perception of normalization. And part of that normalization is that when there is cheating or domestic abuse, people often blame the partner or at least blame the relationship. I’ve had many clinicians and even professionals that I respect immediately go into a, it takes two to tango model.
That somehow, if there is infidelity or cheating or acting out, it must be a sign that there’s something going on in the relationship and blaming the relationship, which means also blaming the intimate partner or spouse. So there’s a lot of biases, there’s a lot of normalization of this type of abuse.
It’s hard for everybody, professionals and victims, to get their head around the idea that this type of behavior is actually a form of domestic abuse. And this would include attitudes, ideas, beliefs, and behaviors that are related to being masculine or male or feminine or female.
Is infidelity abuse? Gender Scripts, Entitlement & Objectification
Dr. Minwalla: Because boys and men learn many unhealthy societal scripts about how to view women. How to view marriage, around sexual entitlement. That they’re entitled to get their needs met at the expense of human rights. And so even men who don’t see themselves necessarily as misogynists have often taken in a lot of these ideas passively just by being in society.
What I found is that many men are taught, and many boys are taught. That one way to increase their gender esteem or their sense of masculinity is to conquer, objectify, and gain the attention of women or girls. We’re all familiar with notches on the bedposts. You know, the more notches you have, the more masculine you are, the more you’re gaining masculine self esteem.
So part of what might be going on is that they temporarily inflate their masculine sense of self worth, not in a healthy way. Very few boys are taught that a secret sexual life is a form of abuse, and cheating is a form of domestic violence. Is infidelity abuse? Having a secret sexual world or life in a partnership or family is immediately a covert form of dominance and control. Because the abuser intentionally withheld information.
That they know that if their partner or family members knew, they would take certain actions to protect themselves. And would respond in a way that advocates for their safety and well-being.
Secret Life as Dominance & Control
Dr. Minwalla: Is infidelity abuse? So intentionally withholding that type of information from somebody is already a form of dominance and control. It can give the abuser control and power by having a secret sexual life that the family, the wife or the partner doesn’t know about. Sometimes, just having that secret life plays a role in providing the abuser with control, power and dominance.
And that might be part of the motivation to maintain, for many years even, a secret world. Sometimes it can be very explicit. I’ve had men tell me in anger that the ability to go and act out gave them a sense of retribution or balance of power. I started recognizing and researching trauma symptoms in the partner or spouse of sex addicts.
And for many years, I felt like I was pushing uphill, an idea that wasn’t well received. And there was a lot of pushback and politics. Around 2011, I started to see a shift where more and more people recognized that partners indeed experience trauma. And so now I see a positive trend towards challenging the codependency models. And replacing those models with a trauma approach in dealing with the spouse of a sex addict.
Shift Towards Trauma Approach & Critique of Codependency Models
Dr. Minwalla: Is infidelity abuse? One concern I have is that among professionals, there seems to be a lack of rigorous understanding of what is actually so damaging about the co-sex addiction model. And why the that and codependency models are actually a form of victim blaming. And why so many partners have been harmed by that. In many ways, it parallels what abusers do defensively.
One common scenario for abusers is that they want to quickly say they’ve learned what they’ve done is wrong. Let’s move on, and let’s put that behind us, and let’s not talk about it. Let’s not reconcile ourselves with what happened. And let’s bury that in the past and move on.
Because there is a movement and a growing number of professionals who have challenged codependency and co-sex addiction. And now we are moving towards a trauma model. Some professionals are quick to jump onto that trend and quickly change words on their website. And say they use a trauma model when they haven’t done that hard work of looking in themselves. And what it was about them that contributed to the harm they may have caused patients.
I think there’s a lack of depth and rigor in that transition for many professionals. That concerns me, primarily because there are still many partners who go for help. And they’re still actually hurt by elements of co-sex addiction.
Is infidelity abuse? Victim Blaming in Clinical Settings
Dr. Minwalla: They’re still having clinical experiences that feel like victim blaming or insensitivity. Is infidelity abuse? I think it’s because professionals say they use a trauma model without fully understanding what that really means. And then, because of that, they still perpetrate a lot of clinical mistakes, and a lot of the old model comes through still.
And a lot of partners feel that many professionals say they use a trauma approach to treat partners. They are actually still using a codependency approach, a co-sex addiction approach, or a hybrid that still hurts partners. And so I think that’s a very serious concern.
Anne: I have that same concern. One professional says he uses the trauma model and wrote recently about me and the things I say on this podcast. He said, “A very dangerous philosophy is spread around that women are merely victims.” And I was thinking, well, we are “merely victims” in this scenario.
Dr. Minwalla: I think people, for many reasons, take a very negative stance towards the word victim. And I think it’s so important clinically to be clear with our language. When there is a violation, when there is abuse, then there is victimization. That’s important for victims to have that named.
And for them to understand that’s different than an agenda of keeping somebody in a victimized state. Or somehow wanting them to own a label that’s stigmatizing. That they should feel burdened by for the rest of their life and prevent healing from happening. Like, that’s not at all what the word victim should mean. But, I feel like many professionals immediately become suspicious or nervous about using the word victim appropriately.
Victim Identity & Healing
Dr. Minwalla: I too have been accused of perpetually keeping partners or wanting to keep partners in a victimized state, which is absolutely not the case.
Anne: Someone at a conference came up to me, and she said, “Your podcast was the first time I actually felt safe enough to define myself as a victim. And until I could do that, I didn’t know what to do to get better.” Because if you somehow think you’re part of the problem, you’re trying to be more loving, more forgiving, and dress sexier. And that’s not the situation. You’ll still be exposed to the abuse and trauma.
Dr. Minwalla: I absolutely agree. Healing really comes from metabolizing reality. Is infidelity abuse? The reality is that there has often been significant abuse, so part of the healing has to be metabolizing that piece of reality. Even among the trend to recognize that partners experience trauma and treat them as trauma victims and survivors. There’s still, even among trauma professionals, a hesitation and misunderstanding on how to clearly name the abuse.
And I think that over time, that’ll change, because they logically have to go hand in hand. If you’re looking at the trauma and understanding it, then the next question is, where is this trauma coming from and what’s causing it? And the minute you ask that question, you have to realize there’s abuse causing the trauma.
It’s not just discovering that there’s a secret sexual world that causes trauma. That’s one type of trauma, but the abuse, such as gaslighting or victim blaming, or years and years of lying and deception, are causing a lot of trauma.
Me Too Movement & Domestic Abuse
Dr. Minwalla: Is infidelity abuse? And so I think over time people will be forced to reckon with the idea. That if we recognize trauma, we have to recognize the abuse, and they go hand in hand. The Me Too movement raised awareness of how men abuse power and see more clearly the role and pervasiveness of sexual entitlement.
What we tend to focus on are the victims in the workplace, which is absolutely essential and legitimate. And that’s actually a great awakening for us to all have. But at the same time, when we expose these men, we’re talking about these workplace violations, I wish we would also consider the intimate partner at home and the children living with their trauma, pain, in silence.
When we look at these cases of high profile men exposed now, whether it’s sexual assault or sexual harassment. Or other forms of inappropriate sexual behavior in the workplace. Most of these men also have wives, or partners, or children, or families. So this means these men engage in all these inappropriate and offending behaviors in the workplace. They’re also engaged in a deceptive compartmentalized sexual world that their families and children don’t know about. And that is, in and of itself, a form of abuse.
Is infidelity abuse? Therapists’ Hesitation to Label Abuse
Dr. Minwalla: Is infidelity abuse? At this time, I still see a lot of well-intentioned trauma therapists who are trying to treat partners and are refusing or timid about using the word abuse. And I don’t think that’s very congruent.
Anne: We are kindred spirits. These same issues have been on my mind, and I’ve talked about them on this podcast. And I’m so grateful for you advocating for victims of abuse in these situations.
Dr. Minwalla: Yes, I think we are kindred spirits and the agenda to get these ideas out more to help not only victims, but also society. So I’m on board with that agenda for sure. Like what is the impact of lies, gaslighting, cover stories, explanations that aren’t true about time and where someone was. They have gut instincts that conflict with what they see around them or see presented.
That can be lies by omission and undetectable types of abuse that are subtle, and it can be years and years of straight up obvious overt lies, gaslighting and manipulations. Whether it’s subtle and hard to detect, or whether it’s pretty overt, pretty extreme, and easy to detect in terms of lies, gaslighting, or victim blaming,
How they relate to other humans, period, and how that shapes the meaning of their life. I kind of describe it as drops of water on a rock. So if their husbands have lied, gaslit, and manipulated them. How does that shape somebody emotionally, their thought system, their sense of self and self-esteem.
Detecting that Something’s Wrong
Dr. Minwalla: Think about specifically the second brain or the enteric system. Neuroscience has identified neurons, brain cells, that literally go from your primary brain to your, what they call the second brain, which is in your gut, in a place called the enteric system.
And part of what it may be responsible for is detecting threats in the environment and sending signals around survival to the primary brain. So it’s a delicate system of being able to detect something’s wrong and then send healthy signals so that the person can make survival attempts and respond accordingly.
It’s like a little antenna, if you will, and a delicate system. If there’s a secret, probably automatically, the human being’s second brain will start to feel threat. It’s going to start to send messages, and now it’s going to be confusing for the brain. Because they’re getting signals, something’s wrong, something’s off, something doesn’t feel right. I feel like I’m somehow threatened.
And the abuser pretends there’s nothing wrong. Is infidelity abuse? They create a situation that’s now confusing, and the primary brain now has to choose. Do I believe my second brain or do I believe my partner and what they’re presenting and putting someone into that forced choice will be damaging.
If that happens for 20 years. That might be 20 years of a person ignoring their survival instincts. And now they have a damaged relationship with their second brain. And that might be way before discovery.
Getting the opposite of what’s needed
Dr. Minwalla: Is infidelity abuse? They’ve already had a very, very crippled relationship and an erosion with their second brain. Then take away their survival instincts and how to support and survive and navigate threats in the environment. It’s like one of the most important psychological functions we have.
Anne: It’s so interesting if they reach out for help, maybe from a couples therapist, for example. Maybe contact clergy to get help, and they get the opposite of the thing they need, instead of saying, “your alarm system is going off.” They say, “Oh, he’s such a good guy. Let’s try to improve your communication.” So even from helping professionals, the injury persists and they’re injured more. But they don’t even know they’re injured.
I can’t stress that enough, because people ask, “Why don’t women get out of abusive relationships?” One answer is, because they don’t know they’re in one. And they’re trying to get help, and the helping professionals aren’t helping them see the abuse. They’re basically enabling the abuse.
Dr. Minwalla: Yes, I think you’re educating me. You referred to helping professionals, but are you saying there’s a common experience of turning to the clergy and getting certain types of feedback?
Anne: Absolutely, our community is interfaith and inter paradigm. So we have agnostic people here and atheist victims. But I’d say the majority of our listeners are religious. And one of the reasons why they’re so traumatized is because they feel like their intuition, or some of them would call it the spirit. They go into clergy for help. And instead of getting help, they are getting abuse from their clergy. I’m not saying clergy is bad necessarily. They just don’t understand what is happening.
Is infidelity abuse? Dangers in Gender based Help
Anne: And so they give the classic religious answers like love, serve and forgive, which is the opposite of what someone would tell a woman if they felt like there was a threat. Is infidelity abuse? They don’t perceive the woman is actually in harm’s way. I’d say that’s across the board in every religion that we see.
Dr. Minwalla: I can validate the dangerousness of that. I find it extremely disturbing what you’re saying. Because first of all, why are women turning to men to respond to deep questions about intimacy, fidelity, and sexuality? With all this unconscious, biased, harmful messaging that boys and men are socialized with and we all suffer for?
And one of the ways we suffer are huge blind spots on sexual entitlement and violence towards girls and women. So just the institutional setup of women turning towards men as if they have something to offer them. I just don’t think it makes sense.
It’s not very logical. It’s not scientifically sound. If you know much about how masculinity is developed and underdeveloped. And where there are real deficits in how masculinity manifests. I just really don’t see how that would be a safe or appropriate setup to have. In general, men advising women on issues that they probably have huge blind spots about.
And then because of those blind spots, they are invariably going to be highly damaging and re-traumatizing to women. And probably perpetrate many types of sexist, misogynistic, and harmful scripts unconsciously, just because they’re the traditional scripts. Deceptive sexuality, it’s a specific type of abuse problem that we would put under the umbrella of gender based violence. Why? Because it’s a type of abuse where gender is going to be a very relevant factor.
Likelihood Of Gendered pattern abuse
Dr. Minwalla: If you’re a girl or woman, you’re probably going to be a victim. Most perpetrators, not all of course, but most perpetrators of having a secret sexual basement are men. So there’s something around gender where the men create the basements, and the women are the victims and finding them. That’s undisputable. And anyone who deals with these issues will see that gendered pattern, at least right now and traditionally.
Is infidelity abuse? We live in a society where nobody calls this type of abuse abuse yet, right? So the idea of having a secret sexual basement doesn’t automatically register as an abuse problem in anyone’s mind. Including professionals, treatment professionals, clergy, nobody thinks a secret sexual basement equals abuse.
So given that reality, why would we turn to the gender that has the problem? And knowing that all institutions and everyone around you don’t see it as abuse yet, why would you then think they have something to offer? I just don’t understand that as making any logical sense. So it’s not to disparage or put down anything related to the clergy or men, it’s just to shine a light on the way we’re socialized as men.
That includes sexual entitlement. It’s a big reason why we don’t call it abuse. There’s an investment in not calling it abuse, because it’s an entitlement that wants to keep being entitled. So there’s a lot of investment in men who have the power, not naming or seeing this clearly as abuse, so that it can continue.
And clergy or anyone, including myself, like who are we as men to get up on pedestals and start preaching about intimacy, sex, and intimate partner abuse?
Humility is important when trying to help abuse victims
Dr. Minwalla: I think most men should start in a place of humility, and that would include getting off a pedestal.
Anne: Amen, is that what I say to that, amen, brother.
Dr. Minwalla: Yeah, hallelujah, like who are these guys? I want to talk to them. Like who are you? There are so many questions that you’re somehow connected to God in a way that we’re not. That you can get on a pedestal and start interfering with people’s abuse situations based on what education? And that you’re so entitled to start preaching, fiddling, and intervening in people’s lives. What pedestal are you standing on? That’s my question to them.
Anne: Yeah, it is a huge problem in every religious community. The thing that I find interesting is that they ask me that same question. Who are you to say these things? And you know what? My response is always I’m an abuse victim, and I represent thousands of abuse victims. To that, I get, well, you don’t know better because you’ve been traumatized. So my trauma has also rendered me illogical, apparently, in their minds. So I just stand up and say, I’m Anne. That’s who I am. I’m Anne.
Dr. Minwalla: Yes. And it’s so important. It’s actually such a global human phenomenon, what you’re talking about, about religion, men, power, and the entitlement in that position. Is infidelity abuse? It’s very dangerous, toxic, yeah. On what basis? I don’t buy it. I will challenge that. I’ve had a lot of clergy that are patients, right? So let’s just pull the robes off and see the truth. None of these men deserve to be standing on any pedestal.
Is infidelity abuse? Clergy & Misguided Forgiveness
Dr. Minwalla: Any true helper is humble. Anyone who’s going to help trauma victims, abuse victims, has to be humble first and foremost. It’s a big part of my training. Humans heal themselves from trauma, therapists don’t. There’s humility in how much you can really intervene and do something.
Anne: In light of this, abusers often feel entitled to receive, many of them from their clergy, immediate forgiveness. And have their victims no longer mention their trauma. They make at least a pretense of apologizing once someone discovers the lies . And this pretense to clergy is very believable. Clergy is like, great, he believes in Jesus. Is infidelity abuse? If an abuser claims he’s repentant or sorry, many times clergy will pressure the wife to forgive.
Dr. Minwalla: It sounds like you said a lot of victims are told to forgive early in the process. Is that right, Anne?
Anne: Yes, yes, they’re being told to forgive. They’re also being told to love and serve, because that is the solution.
Dr. Minwalla: I have three things I’d like to maybe highlight in response to that. The first thing is, it’s not going to work, period. It’s not scientific. If someone has been in a car accident, and they have broken bones, and they’re hemorrhaging. And there are all kinds of injuries. To tell them to just get up, dust off, and keep walking isn’t going to work. So you can say it. You can try to demand it. You’re not going to have success, and the outcomes will be poor.
Premature Forgiveness & Its Consequences
Dr. Minwalla: So the idea of telling an abused spouse to just get over it isn’t going to work. You’re just setting yourself up for a disappointment and a lot of continued trauma and symptoms. Just like somebody in a car accident. Forgiveness is a very advanced, down the road stage of healing that may or may not ever happen. Really, the word doesn’t even need to be brought up for quite a while, since it’s so advanced. And any mention of it is premature, in terms of an expectation of this type of trauma and abuse.
Is infidelity abuse? The other thing is, it’s a demonstration of continuing abusive psychology. When someone tells a victim to get over it and move on. What they’re really communicating is, I want you to collude with me in pretending it’s not going to happen again. They’re basically telling the victim, I don’t care enough about what I did. And implicitly, I don’t care enough about you, and I’m gonna hurt you again. That’s really the message.
It’s a very revealing way to respond to a victim. Whether it’s the clergy saying that, or whoever’s saying that, it’s very revealing. And that’s how I would interpret it as, oh, okay, you want me to join you in skipping over that and pretending like you’re somehow better or the issue’s resolved.
There is no resolution until the perpetrator resolves the issue he has. And then the third thing is. When you have this kind of advice for this type of victim, especially if you have, let’s say in your example, Anne, you’re talking about clergy and the church and institutions.
Continued Domination by Helpers
Dr. Minwalla: These are powerful institutions and people, often male. Is infidelity abuse? So it’s a continuation of dominance, control, power, patronizing, harmful and abusive. All those things. So, to go to help, and then have your helpers continue to dominate, patronize, and try to control you by telling you not to have your reactions. Instead, to suck it up and move on, forgive, or try to somehow manipulate how you’re supposed to be is already a harmful approach for the victim.
So any type of feedback like that, whether it’s clergy, non-clergy, anyone who’s telling a victim to just move on and get over it is really perpetrating on them for all the reasons I just articulated.
Anne: One of the things said, I would say more by clergy than in therapy. But it can happen in therapy. A man can say the victim’s anger, like, that’s the problem. Because he’s repentant apparently, because he said he’s repentant and said he’s never going to do it again. So why is she so angry about it? So they’re actually more concerned with her anger and her, you know, perceived hate of him or whatever. Than they are about the fact that she was victimized.
I’ve been thinking about society too, and the way they demonize women by saying she was angry. Like these angry women or femi-nazis whatever word they use to disenfranchise female anger. And I want women to embrace it. I’m not trying to say they have to feel angry, but it’s such a normal, healthy reaction to being victimized. I’m just so confused why society has decided to disenfranchise women in this way.
Is infidelity abuse? Victim’s Anger & Society’s Response
Dr. Minwalla: Betrayal is high octane anger inducing, just as a normal human reaction. You see it all the time. Victims of deceptive sexuality experience, rage and anger. It’s absolutely normal and should be expected.
Anne: Yeah, I think one of the reasons abusive men have decided that female anger is a problem is that our anger helps us take action. So, abusive men disenfranchise our anger with the intent to stop us from taking action.
Dr. Minwalla: Yes, there’s a reason the anger’s there. Anger can fuel so many positive, health promoting responses. Everything you’re saying is correct. Anger is useful, normal and expected. Now, whenever you have a dominant group that has power over another group. Is infidelity abuse? You often have abuse and forms of harm from the dominant group towards the less powerful group.
Any time in that situation, the victim expresses justified rage, or anger is often used to discredit the victim. Their reactions to the abuse are used to silence and pathologize, and deflect and turn things around. In these situations, let’s say in the clergy, where the abuser’s repentant. And the feedback is, Hey, they’re looking repentant. What’s your problem? You know, making the anger in the victim, the problem. In an abuse situation, right? It’s the behavior, not the words that has any relevance.
Repentance & Behavioral Change
Dr. Minwalla: So, if the abuser says, I repent, the real response should be, let’s see that in your actions. Humility is remorse demonstrated through behavior. And that’s the kind of advice that would be appropriate: you’re repentant, let’s see your remorse in your actions for six months, and then we’ll meet again.
Anne: Yeah, or even you’re repentant. Let’s see how your victim is feeling.
Dr. Minwalla: in six months based on your actions and how you’ve been treating her, right. So those would be the kind of normal, appropriate, helpful responses. Not, look, he’s repentant. What’s your problem?
Anne: Is infidelity abuse? Yeah, the other issue is clergy cannot perceive, and some therapists cannot perceive people lie to them. And groom them, and they can’t perceive this is an act to manipulate the clergy too.
Dr. Minwalla: Oh, so these guys don’t have any training in how to be a clergy person and deal with just normal human life? Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do?
Anne: You would think, but no. We’ve talked to women of all different faiths. When he goes in and says, I feel bad, they literally don’t have on their radar, wait a minute, this is all an act. So that’s another issue, they don’t realize they’re dealing with a wolf in sheep’s clothing. They think they’re dealing with someone who was kind of a wolf, but now look at him. He’s a sheep. Come on, the woman is freaked out and scared, and also like no, no, no.
You don’t understand, but it seems like clergy tend to believe the man over the woman. They just can’t perceive they’re being lied to or being deceived.
Deception in Religious Counseling
Dr. Minwalla: So let’s just think logically. Somebody has a deceptive compartmentalized sexual reality. Is infidelity abuse? So this problem is really about deception. So now you’re going to automatically believe someone coming to you for lying?
Anne: That is exactly what’s happening.
Dr. Minwalla: That doesn’t sound logical to me. You would assume okay, your problem’s lying, then maybe I should be at least somewhat aware that lying might be happening now. Or there might be certain shading of the truth or manipulation right now. So that would be kind of clergy 101.
Anne: Yeah, I hear a lot of stories where the women will say to me, “He met with his pastor, and the pastor told him this.” But her husband might be lying to her about what the pastor said. So a lot of the information that we get is what the addict or abuser says to his victim about what happened in that meeting. So we also don’t know that the pastor did say those awful things. It could be that the pastor didn’t say anything like that, but the abuser decided, Hey, this is how I can get some power here.
I think that’s the heart of it. In these institutions, that’s how they get power, is by being “righteous.” So that’s another level of deception right there. They’re showing up at church and giving talks or doing service to maintain that power, which is super, super scary. I think the religious dudes are like super predators. For religious women, like me, who have been taught through our religion. That part of the way to connect with God and hear God’s voice is by getting counsel from clergy.
Is infidelity abuse? Religious Scripts & Complex Trauma
Anne: So to say, no, I can pray and get answers directly from God. I have the power to do that. I don’t need this man to help me out is really important.
Dr. Minwalla: Yeah, and I think what you’re highlighting, and it’s a challenging topic. Which is how religion can be a form of complex trauma and abuse. And now it’s created a whole set of complicated dynamics, Is infidelity abuse? Where healing requires seeing abuse clearly and emancipating yourself from it. Which ultimately will probably include seeing the abuse of your religion on yourself and emancipating yourself from those parts. And they’re probably just going together.
Anne: Exactly, yeah. So for somebody like me, I’m Christian and devout in my religion, but also feminist. I think the way this is interpreted, or the way people are doing it, is not what Christ intended. So I just form my own ways of interpreting it to live in these two spaces at the same time. I look at Christ and I’m like, he loved women. He was like, always concerned about women. He always made sure he was caring for them.
And the first person that saw him after his resurrection was a woman. To me, I can read the scriptures and interpret them from a feminist perspective .
Dr. Minwalla: Exactly, I appreciate you sharing that. You have a religious identity in a part of you that’s meaningful, and you have a feminist ideology in a part of you that’s extremely meaningful. And you’re not willing to choose one or the other. You’re going to find a resolution and do the work that allows you to be full in, all of you.
Becoming Whole Human Beings
Dr. Minwalla: Wonderful, right? We talk a lot about intersection these days, race, ethnicity, religion, culture, class, you could even put trauma history, right? How did these all intersect, and how do we become whole human beings? And none of us have to deny who we are. The world can make room for who we are.
Anne: After talking about, is infidelity abuse? At the end of our interview, we started chatting about stuff. I started talking about how I don’t want to get married again. My ex was arrested in 2015. The divorce was final in 2017 and I’ve only been on maybe three or four dates since then. And I’m not really interested in it.
I’m also not interested in sex right now. It’s just not very interesting to me. So, Omar and I just kind of chatted a bunch. And we’ll just jump right into where I’m talking about how I don’t care if I never have sex again. If I never have it, that’s fine. I’m okay with that because of the values I’m choosing.
Dr. Minwalla: I think your awareness is healthy, too. There’s a big, large, dominant part of you, overall umbrella that’s fine, adjusted and happy. But you’re also acknowledging just a part of you, right, the sexual part, and that is meaningful to you too. And that’s the part that I think is making you feel whole. That seems healthy. It’s just an acknowledgement that there’s a real choice and navigation that ultimately is fulfilling for you. And sex doesn’t have to be part of that.
Liberation from Marriage Expectations
Dr. Minwalla: And that’s some of the scripting we have to get out of, all these mandates and supposed tos around sex. We talk about gender pathology. Is infidelity abuse? There’s a whole sexual layer there that we never talked about, but there’s a lot of pathology. You could put that religious scripting, shaping someone’s ideas of sex, as a form of complex trauma.
Anne: Well, that’s interesting, because from my faith tradition, we’re Christian, like we actually believe in a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. And together they are God. So it’s easy for me in my faith to be like, Oh yeah, God is male and female.
So because of that, on earth you’re supposed to find that eternal companion, and you’re supposed to marry them. And you marry them in the temple, and that is like the ideal situation. So if you’re missing your eternal companion here on Earth, then, you know, it’s super sad for you.
And so for me, it’s been so liberating to be like, I actually want that. Like I want an “eternal companion.” That sounds super cool, but I don’t care if I have that person in this life. This life is super short, and we’re all just going to die. So who the heck cares? So in my faith, I’m like the weird single lady who doesn’t want to get married.
And in my faith, that’s weird. Like everyone should want to get married, because that’s the thing to do. But I think that’s similar with all faiths. Now I wear it as a badge of honor, and I’m so excited to tell people I’m divorced. I love telling people I’m single.
Is infidelity abuse? Microaggressions & Female Autonomy
Anne: It’s something that I feel so confident and liberated about. And those types of faith scripting, you’re not a whole person if you’re not married. That’s also what keeps so many victims from getting divorced, in all faiths. Because they feel like, shoot, if I have to get divorced, then who am I? What am I? Because you’re a broken person if you’re divorced or something’s wrong with you.
So lately when any well meaning nice person in Utah, where I live says, Oh, you’re so cute. Why aren’t you married? I literally almost yell at them, but in a nice way. And say, because I don’t want to be. I don’t know if that’s a trauma response or if I’m just enjoying shocking people.
Dr. Minwalla: Is infidelity abuse? Well, one form of complex trauma to our sexuality is this extreme pressure, coercion, and social mandate to be married or else. Forcing a human being into something that’s so life altering against their true will by grooming them and pressuring them. That’s a form of complex trauma, and it’s extremely damaging to pressure them from day one. That if you don’t, something’s wrong with you and you’re not whole is such a crippling, abusive, toxic psychology to impart on a child.
Anne: So this thing happened to me and I’ve been trying to define it and maybe you can help.
Historical Context of Marriage
Anne: So two men in one day said, you’re so cute. Why are you single? And it annoyed me. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought that was a microaggression, but I can’t figure out why. Because to me it felt like my cuteness didn’t count for itself, it had to belong to someone else or it didn’t count. That’s been rattling around in my head. Like, I don’t owe my cuteness to a man. Can’t it just be for myself? I’ve been trying to formulate why it would be a microaggression, and I haven’t been able to put my finger on it.
Dr. Minwalla: The word owned and cuteness is only legitimate if a man owns it. Let’s go to the truth and reality about marriage. And how it actually developed in the human race, which is your wife is property. You own another human for sex, that’s entitlement. It’s part of the institution of marriage. It’s actually the definition of marriage, which is the entitlement to own another human being.
So, now you fast forward, and now you have guys making these comments with the same assumption, which goes all the way back to that. And that’s why it would be a microaggression, because you’re not anyone until you’re owned by a man and now you’re legitimate. And any attractiveness or being cute is for that purpose. It’s awful, toxic, and disgusting that implication.
Conscious Choices & Social Pressure
Dr. Minwalla: I’m really for people making conscious, healthy choices and being informed. And if you are informed and everything’s laid out, and you choose something, I’m all for you. However, I’m against socializing and forcing people into the idea that they should be married or else. I have done a study, a word of mouth study, always asking guys for years, right, two questions. Why did you get married? Why did you have kids?
First of all, the answers are usually always the same. It’s not a wide range of answers. It’s almost like 95 percent of the answers are the same answer. Guess what the answers are.
Anne: Is it because I was supposed to?
Dr. Minwalla: Nope, either I-oh-oh, silence or a shoulder shrug.
Anne: Wow.
Dr. Minwalla: There’s no thought, reason, or voice attached to marrying or having kids. That’s how deep and unconscious just following the script is.
Anne: That is super scary. It reminds me of my across the street neighbor. She wanted to serve a mission for our church. And her boyfriend at the time was like, well, I’m going to marry in the next couple of months. So if you go on a mission, I’ll just have to marry someone else. So she stayed home and married him. And I thought, basically, he said, I don’t care about you at all. All I care about is marrying for whatever reason. And it doesn’t matter who to. That story was so crazy, alarming to me.
Dr. Minwalla: You’re an interchangeable object. Just like a wife traditionally is. It’s a piece of property, so I’ll just buy a new one.
Is infidelity abuse? Following Society’s script
Anne: Yeah, yeah, it was so alarming to me. I was like, oh, how did you guys get engaged? She told that story to me. But she wasn’t super ashamed of it or anything. She was like, oh yeah, it just went down like that. And so then we married, and now they have six kids.
Dr. Minwalla: Yeah, because she’s following the script unconsciously and they’re romanticizing it. And it’s really a symptom of abuse.
Anne: Yeah, it was an alarming story. Is infidelity abuse? I’m 100 percent sure she’s an abuse victim, but she doesn’t know! She doesn’t know. I see it everywhere now, and it freaks me out. It takes me a lot to not just walk up and say, do you know you’re being abused?
Dr. Minwalla: But this is so relevant. Because when you force someone to marry, or force them to have children, it will cause huge amounts of rage. And then we ask ourselves, why so mad? Well, wouldn’t you be mad if someone forced you into marriage and into having kids. And you didn’t even think about it? It wasn’t a choice?
Yeah, it all gets absorbed. Still to this day, right? If you’re single, what’s wrong with you? That’s so insulting, right? So, it’s a very important area that you’re in. There are so many women in religion fighting exactly your battle. And your work is extremely important and needed. I’m such a big supporter of what you’re doing.
Emancipation from abuse is healthy
Dr. Minwalla: Emancipation from abuse is healthy, it’s the definition. of psychological health. So when you get confused in all the trauma and don’t know which way to go, just move towards truth and reality. Those are your best friends. Emancipating yourself from harm and abuse is always a healthy trajectory.
Anne: It was such a wonderful conversation. I’m so grateful for his insights about, is infidelity abuse. You know, when people come on the podcast, we all have different opinions and ways of approaching things. And I appreciate how everyone comes to it from their own experience. Even though we both see the world in maybe some different ways, I appreciate Dr. Minwalla. So I’m so glad that he was able to join me.
Does Betrayal Cause Body Image Issues? – Katherine’s Story
Mar 08, 2022
Women who have been betrayed by their husband justifiably imagine that perhaps if they had improved their appearance, he would’ve stayed faithful. But is that true? Or does betrayal cause body image issues?
Why Does Betrayal Cause Body Image Issues?
Betrayal attacks a woman’s sense of self-worth, affecting her physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
These types of betrayal will inevitably injure a woman and cause body image issues that are no fault of her own:
A husband’s use of inappropriate media
Emotional, physical, or virtual affairs
Verbal and emotional abuse
How Betrayal Can Cause Body Image Issues
Part of betrayal is often emotional abuse, which is the main cause of body image issues. To discover if he’s using any one of these 19 different types of emotional abuse tactics, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
3 Things About Body Image Related to Betrayal
1. Betrayal Happens to Every Type of Woman
When you’re healing from your husband’s betrayal, it’s easy to believe his lies that you could have done something to prevent it. hat’s not true. Even stunning actresses, musicians, and supermodels have faced betrayal. Why? Because cheating isn’t a result of how attractive, strong or amazing you are. Infidelity is a choice that a man makes because he lacks care and respect for his partner. That’s it.
2. When You’re Feeling Sad About Your Body Focus on Healing The Trauma
Sometimes it’s about more than just your reflection. Healing from betrayal often brings flashbacks of hurtful things he may have said or done. It’s natural for those experiences to resurface.
Counter the negative thoughts with kind ones. Repeat phrases like, “My worth isn’t defined by anyone else’s actions,” or “I am strong, valuable, and healing.”
Protect Yourself from Flashbacks
If flashbacks of cruel comments or situations are overwhelming, use meditation or grounding techniques like wrapping yourself in a blanket, holding an object in your hand, or listening to calming music. These can help bring you back to the present and remind you that you’re beautiful just the way you are.
Prioritize Rest
Healing is exhausting work, and that’s okay. Your mind and body need rest. Take a nap, go to bed early, or enjoy a quiet moment with tea—even just 10 minutes to yourself can help.
3. You Need Support When Betrayal Has Damaged Your Self Image
You don’t have to tackle this alone. Nobody should handle the fallout of betrayal by themselves.
There’s something remarkably healing about connecting with others who’ve been through similar experiences. Women with experience with this can offer empathy, advice, or even just an ear when you need it most.
On bad body image days, lean on support systems to lift you back up. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session to connect with women who truly understand betrayal trauma and how it affects our body image. Just share how you’re feeling. You don’t need to have all the answers or explain everything. A simple “Hey, I’m having a tough day” is enough to start to feel better.
Having a supportive network, whether it’s friends, family, or a professional community, can make all the difference.
Transcript: Does Betrayal Cause Body Image Issues?
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Katherine.
She’s going to talk about how body image has been part of her story. And then she actually wrote down how her husband’s betrayal affected the way she viewed her body image. Welcome, Katherine. How did your husband’s betrayal affect your body image?
Katherine: In my own life comparison has been something I’ve struggled with. For a while, it was difficult for me to be in public, either with my husband or without him. When I would see attractive women in public, I felt incredibly traumatized. It really was difficult for me to go out into public for a while and watch TV because I just felt like I didn’t measure up.
Impact of Betrayal on Body Image
Then another area body image affect me my husband and I began to become intimate again, I was so traumatized and felt so negative about my body.
The messages I told myself fall into two categories: I’m too much or I’m not enough, like I’m too big, too small, too flabby, too old, too much cellulite, too tall, too short, I’m not enough, I’m not pretty enough, I’m not thin enough. Areas in my life that I felt confident in were attacked and things that people said to me , my husbands or other people were an additional wound on top of that.
It’s an ongoing battle with body image, but I’ve also made a lot of progress
Becoming aware of my negative body talk that often is just this dialogue that goes on in my head that I’m not even aware of and really beginning to work on gaining confidence.
Body Image History
When I was in a middle school, I was not in the popular crowd. I was shy and reserved and quiet, and I just didn’t quite fit in. One of the popular boys who had this little entourage of cronies that followed him around, he decided one day that he needed a new girlfriend. And so he sent one of his little cronies to me.
And another girl, separately, saying that this popular boy was going to decide between the two of us and choose a new girlfriend. He didn’t ask me if I wanted to be, he just assumed that I would just willingly love this great honor, right? And so, this crony told me, he said, I’ll come back to you in a couple days after he’s made his decision.
And so, honestly, I truly did not want to be his girlfriend because I was quiet and shy and that just freaked me out. But I was just so flattered that somebody had noticed me. So about two days later, he came back and he said, well, he’s made a decision. He’s chosen her over you.
And part of me was so relieved because I didn’t want to be his girlfriend. But the next thing he said to me was he chose her because she has bigger boobs.
And right there in that moment, I saw her as more valuable than me. And then, the sad thing that I did, Anne, is I actually said out loud to him, That’s okay. I understand. I thoughts she was more valuable because of her breast size and I carried that wound for years and years and years.
When My Body Image Started to Heal
And one of my really good friends had a mastectomy from breast cancer and she was very open about her procedure and I was visiting her one day and she asked me if I wanted to see her scars. That was a real holy moment for me. First of all, that my friend would invite me into that pain.
To see those scars, but in that moment of seeing that oh my goodness I was like, oh I need to be so grateful not just for that part of my body, but for all of my body So that was in a profound Impact on me. So I really began That grateful journey of being thankful for my body and I had for years bought the add a cup size bras.
I’m not condemning those bras for anyone out there, but for me personally my own personal journey I got to a point where I threw those all away That was a huge step of healing to realize that I am not going to use these for me personally That was a real confirmation that I would had made progress in that area and then I really was truly Being grateful for the body that I have.
How Running Helped Me Heal
Another area of body image that I’ve struggled with is my legs, and I’m a runner. I love to go for a run in the morning, but I was so critical of these lets that took me for a run. And then one day, I was getting out of my car in a parking lot and I see a woman and three or four kids getting out of a car and they’re helping her with the wheelchair. And she gets out and slides into the wheelchair and she has only one leg. Oh, and again, I’m standing there thinking, you know what?
I just went running and I’m so critical of my legs. This woman would just love to have my legs that have cellulite. So another step of realizing to be grateful. And then would you believe, and like probably a year and a half later, I’m at the same parking lot. It was Target. I get out of my car.
I see that same woman. Getting out of her car again, and this time both of her legs are gone. And, oh my goodness. I’m like, how can I ever complain about my legs again? I would get out of the shower and I would see my legs in the mirror. I appreciate my legs. They have served me well. I just went for a run this morning.
Believable affirmations really helped me
Anne: Yeah, that story reminds me of my son.
Teaching Body Positivity to Children
We get a pass to an amusement park and a water park near our home. It’s like five minutes away from where we live.
And he said to me one day, Mom, I don’t like going to this water park because so many of the women are in bikinis, and I have to look at them, and I feel uncomfortable. I don’t want to stop doing things
because there’s people there in swimming suits. I want my kids to be able to go places and enjoy things. He specifically said, they wear these bikinis that show their stomachs. And I said, what do you think their stomachs are for? He was like, what do you mean? And I said, why does a woman have a stomach? What would happen if a woman didn’t have a stomach?”
And he was like, “Oh, well, she wouldn’t be able to eat.”
And I said, “Yeah, what are her legs for? What would a woman be without legs?”
And he’s like, “She couldn’t walk.”
“And what about their arms? What are their arms for? So when you see a woman in a swimsuit, I don’t want you to think that the reason she has a stomach is for you to look at it. The reason she has a stomach is so that she can eat and live.”
Understanding Bad Body Image Days
He was like, “Mom, that makes so much sense.”
This is a good lesson we need to teach our sons. The reason women have body parts is for the woman. You have legs so that you can walk, so that you can run, that’s why you have arms and a stomach.
That’s why you have a head. You do not have a body. Just so people can look at it. Your body is for you.
Katherine: That is so powerful and I think that really helps us to not objectify women. We as women can sometimes objectify other women as well. That’s powerful.
Seeing Beyond Outward Appearance
Anne: So this question follows that idea. How can we begin to see ourselves as more than just our outward appearance?
Katherine: That holds the key to our stories, because we age! But I believe that we become more beautiful as we age.
Our wisdom, our life experience, confidence, accepting ourselves, becoming less judgmental, life experience and how that changes us. I just believe that as we age, we become a more beautiful person. You had your mom on the podcast and I’ve never seen your mom or met your mother.
But what a beautiful person she encountered in the podcast, full of wisdom, kindness and compassion. That’s what true beauty is.
Emotional Abuse and Self-Worth
Anne: Absolutely.One of the most intense emotional abuse episodes that happened with me was when my ex told me very calmly that he had been lying to me every time he said I was beautiful. He said he couldn’t lie anymore, and that he never thought I was beautiful. Of course this kind of trauma would affect your sex drive.
And I said to him, “That’s not true. I am beautiful. You’re full of crap.”
And he said, “I just mean your personality makes you ugly.” And that hurt more than anything, because it was like, so you think I’m cute physically, but you really genuinely hate me.
That’s basically what he was saying. Things took a turn after that. I was like, if he refuses to acknowledge in any way, shape, or form that he appreciates me as a human being, he’s basically saying your personality, your wisdom, your strength. I don’t like anything about you. And I think he said it on purpose to hurt me and never took it back. Never acknowledged it happened.
And then when I told other people he had said that, he gaslit me and said, “No, that’s not what happened. That’s not what I said. That’s not what it meant.”
And I was like, “That’s exactly what you said and exactly what you meant.”
I am beautiful. And if you don’t think I’m beautiful, you apparently hate your wife.
Body as a Container for Gifts
Katherine: Our bodies are really a container for our EQ, our emotional intelligence, our IQ, which is our intelligence, our GQ, which is our gut and our intuition, which as betrayed women has been so damaged, right?
Seeing our bodies as vehicles of takes us for a run. All of our gifts are expressed through our bodies. So if we play the piano or we’re an artist, an athlete.
Our bodies is how we express our gifts. It’s our container. And then for women of faith our body is actually the container for God’s spirit. And if we can begin to believe how valuable God says we are. He calls our body, his temple, and he dwells in us. Wow. That to me is just so, so powerful.
Affirmations and Self-Care
I do a brain dump and write down the negative things I say to myself. And really grieve that. And then look at the if thens. If only I was thin, then my husband would love me. Or if only I looked like that model, then he would stop looking at this stuff. Change them to I am’s. Like, I am grateful for my legs because they have served me well.
I’m going to cross out those old messages that I’ve written down, and I’m going to come up with new believable affirmations.
If we are women of faith, I think scripture Is so powerful to see who god says we are like psalm 139 It’s a beautiful passage that talks about how we’re fearfully and wonderfully made Other scripture talks about where the apple of his eye that he sings over us that were his beloved So that’s a huge piece of it for me. There’s nobody else like me. So be me. And that’s what I say. Be yourself because everyone else is taken.
Anne: In you talking about this, it’s bringing up so many issues that I have, and I’ve always had really solid body image. But what I doubted was my personality .
Betrayal Affects All Women
A man said to me, you are the ideal physical person. Do you think if I was your boyfriend that your personality might change? Then I remember a few other times a man said you’re beautiful physically, but like your personality kind of ruins it. This just feels so off, meaning why would this be okay?
I’m grateful for the thoughts you shared, because it’s made me think about where I stand on all this and why self care is so hard for me.
I remember going shopping with my mother in law because I had a speaking engagement and she wanted me to wear all this glitzy stuff and the outfit that I picked out was very plain. And she said, why it’s so plain. And I said, because I don’t want my outfit to take away from my personality. I want my personality to be the thing that shines through.
But now I think it was just a form of manipulation trying to undermine me in order to get me to act the way that they wanted, maybe to get me to stop confronting them about their abuse.
Victim Blaming and Manipulation
So you wrote down a bunch of this type of emotional abuse in the form of victim blaming and how you experienced it. Why do you think when it comes to betrayal, the men who perpetrate the betrayal use victim blaming as a way to manipulate their victims.
Katherine: Whenever they step outside the marriage and betray us, they’re so angry at us. In order to justify it , they have to see us as bad. They take a grain of truth and just blow it up into a mountain of how horrible we are.
And attack our strengths and exploit our weaknesses. attacked our body image.
Anne: Yes, that is exactly what happens.
Katherine: He lies so that’s victim blaming. The other area is others. And this can be friends, family, clergy, therapists. They’re uneducated in betrayal trauma.
Maybe they still take the old codependency model and they’re trying to place that on you, or They think that betrayal is really about sex when it’s really not. Years ago, that was me.
I didn’t understand what betrayal trauma was. At the time, um, I was being betrayed. In fact, one friend of mine, her husband left her, and another friend said, “She wouldn’t have it with him, what else was he going to do?”
I said, “Yeah, as women, we need to have it with our husbands.”
I mean, that was me. So when I hear this victim blaming, it makes me angry, but I also realized they’re not educated yet. So, I can have a little sympathy for them, but it’s still a maddening, especially when you’re on the receiving end.
When Betrayal Affects Our Body Image
It might be actually ourselves. about our body image This is one that sometimes we’re not even aware of. When a woman is in an emotionally abusive relationship for a long time, she actually can begin to see herself through the twisted and distorted lens of her abuser, her accuser, her husband.
That’s gaslighting, where she begins to believe what others say what therapists are telling her And we blame ourselves and a huge part of healing is realizing that we are not to blame. our bodies are not to blame
I would just shout that from the rooftops. There is absolutely no blame whatsoever on a woman when their husband is unfaithful.
These men, they had integrity issues long before they ever met us . So it wouldn’t have matter who they married. It’s not about us.
DARVO and MARVO Tactics
Katherine: If you’re around BTR very long at all, you will hear one of the coaches and one of the women in the groups talk about the acronym DARVO. And that stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim Offender. It’s a tactic that our abusers can use against us.
And it is so strange. Anne, I almost feel like these men go to Darvo school or something, because it is so common. You just hear it over and over again. So first they deny they’ve done anything wrong. Then they attack you, and then they make themselves the victim because you have so offended them. It’s so easy to fall into that trap too, because they are so good at it.
But I’ve kind of changed the DARVO into MARVO.
And my MARVO stands for Minimize Avert Reverse Victim Offender. They might take a little bit of responsibility in this one, They’re going to minimize, Well, I shouldn’t have done that, but then they avert it right onto you, but you dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. And then you say, but you did this.
Yes. I was wrong, but you dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, and they again still become the victim that you, and you are the offender. When we as women can, you become aware of when this is happening.
Living Free Strategies to Heal Our Body Image Issues
Anne: Yeah, you’re bringing up the strategies from The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. I want you to talk more about those later, but let’s go through that list of ways his betrayal affected your body image.
Katherine: Yes, so you know when you go to the theme park and want to get on the roller coaster, and there’s that sign that says if you’re at risk for a heart attack, please do not get on this ride.
Well, I just want a disclaimer here because Your blood pressure is going to rise when you hear these. This first one is an example of something that actually came from the therapist. He said to me So, tell me, how did you contribute to his infidelity? And to my husband.
So where’s your list of things she’s done wrong?
How His Blame Hurts Us
So here’s the next one. You know, you can’t shame him or he’ll act out again. So you’re actually silenced. There’s that threat that you better not do that. You’re silenced from sharing your pain out of fear that they’ll act out again.
And if they act out again, then they come back and say, well, it’s because you shamed me.
So the next one came from clergy, let me just ask you, how often are you having it? Because you know, if a woman would just loosen up in the bedroom, make themselves available, be more adventurous, meet his needs, this kind of thing just wouldn’t happen.
One pastor said if you don’t meet his needs every day, it’s like sending him to work with a loaded gun.
Anne: WHAT?!
Katherine: Yes!
Anne: The pastor’s basically like saying, he’s an animal. You’re responsible for making sure he doesn’t harm people. That he can’t control himself. Like if people want to treat men like animals, then fine. But we hold them to a higher standard here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I don’t know. We treat men like humans!
His Words Damaged My View of Myself
Katherine: Yes! Okay, so this one came from a therapist. So I think I figured out the problem here. We need to make you a safe person.
If we can make you safe, he won’t lie.
You can’t justify wrong behavior by someone else’s perceived wrong behavior, that never justifies a lie.
So here’s one from the faith community, have you been praying for him? His integrity is your responsibility, because you haven’t prayed for him.
This could come from anyone. Okay, so I really need to be honest with you here. This might be difficult to hear, but if you would just take better care of yourself, then he wouldn’t feel a need to look at that stuff.
How could that not affect my body image okay. Here’s the next one from my husband. I could not tell you the truth because you’re so full of fear and worry that you would go off the deep end.
You know, like you did last time. Another common one: I can’t tell you cause I didn’t want to hurt you. Who they’re really protecting is themselves. Cause if they were all about protecting you, they wouldn’t have acted out in the first place. Okay. This next one also came from my husband. I am working so hard on myself and you haven’t fill in the blank, forgiven me or trust me or respect me or appreciate me.
I’ll just never be good enough for you.
When He Betrays Us With Lies About Ourselves
Anne: Poor abusers. We just expect them not to be abusive. It’s so, so mean of us.
Katherine: The bar is really low when you want to think about it. You know, the bar is so low.
Okay, this is a very wounding one because this one came from a friend Well, I’ll tell you one thing. I would never put up with that if he was my husband because on one hand they’re validating your pain and then the next hand they’re calling you a fool.
Anne: Part of being able to identify this is knowing how to recognize victim blaming. And do you think it’s also a form of victim blaming because they’re saying it’s kind of your fault because you put up with it?
Katherine: Yeah, I think it can be. Or, you know, you’ve put up with this so long and I’ve heard several women say this that they’ve shared with their friends and they’re just like I’ve never put up with that.
How could you, you need to leave him instead of really helping them figure out what their next step is. So the last one you finally gained the courage to tell your story to somebody.
Sharing Your Own Body Image Issues Can Help Other Women
And you pour out your heart and you’re sitting there waiting to see What’s going to happen and they look at you and they go Well, it sounds to me like maybe you haven’t forgiven him boy when somebody throws it at you, oh, it’s so hurtful you have to grieve and you have to walk through This anger this righteous anger.
Anne: Yeah, our anger really can help us.
And that’s one of the things that the living free workshop covers. what strategies to use to
keep ourselves safe from this type of victim blaming. Living free covers the fact that all women resist abuse in different ways.
Can you talk about Living Free. Did it help you realize the ways that you were resisting the abuse doing the best that you could, knowing what you knew at the time and considering the counsel and advice you were receiving.
Knowing What to Do Next To Feel Better About Ourselves
Katherine: I wanted him to believe and see me so badly. So I’d keep trying, maybe if I say it this way, or maybe if I say it that way, and you defend and you keep trying and trying and trying, and it just doesn’t work.
It ends up into an argument. The other one, is the apology mode. And back to the example of the husband who says, you know, I’m working so hard and you don’t appreciate me. Okay. The apology mode is, Honey, I’m so sorry. You’re right. You are working hard. And yeah, maybe I do expect too much.
And I really do appreciate you and thank you for doing all this hard work. So the conversation started with you going to them with a concern and it ends up with you being the one apologizing.
So it educated me to walk away from his trap with dignity.
Anne: Yeah, I cover all of the traps they’re going to use in the living free workshop.
Katherine: Yes We’re just kind of falling into their trap. And when we begin to respond to our husbands in this new way, boy, they notice there’s a new woman in town. It really, truly does empower us and it gives us courage then to do it the next time.
Anne: I am so glad. So many women find The Living Free Strategies to be life-changing. Cause it’s not like anything you’ve ever heard before.
Katherine: It changed my life.
Safe Community Helps Us See Our True Beauty
Then another way I got grounded in truth was in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups. In these sessions, it’s such an honor to spend time with these women. I believe betrayed women are some of the most beautiful, strong, persevering women on the face of the planet.
It is amazing when we first come in to the group, maybe, you know, we have just discovered something and we come into the group and we are so traumatized and rightly so we’ve all been there, but to see the growth within just a few short weeks is really amazing to me. And I look at that and I look at my own personal story.
It took me 10 years to discover what these women are learning at BTR in a matter of weeks. And so you can fast forward two, three, four weeks. You’ll have the same woman back in a group. And yes, she’s still traumatized. Yes.
She’s learning the lingo She’s grounded in truth, working on boundaries. Supported and validated by the BTR Coaches. I literally see these women find their voice in a matter of weeks. And I look at my journey, and it was 10 years before I found BTR.
It’s amazing to go from being distraught and traumatized, confused, scared, accused, misunderstood.
Empowerment and Progress
And a few weeks later, getting to a safer place emotionally with the help of a BTR coach, but it’s because I experienced that.
A few weeks ago, one of the women in a sessions, after over 20 years of marriage, had finally set some really strong boundaries with her husband.
And it wasn’t ending the way she wanted, but she was sticking to her truth. And said, after 20 years, BTR helped me have the courage. Several other women in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions were like, “Yes, BTR, BTR.” I mean, one woman even said, “I didn’t even know if I’d be alive if it wasn’t for BTR.” What Betrayal Trauma Recovery offers to betrayed women is amazing.
Anne: It is. That makes me feel so honored and humbled to hear that because when I started this, it was just in an effort to make sense of what had happened to me when I couldn’t get help from other therapists, when I couldn’t get help from anywhere else.
Making Progress Toward Healthy Body Image
Women have been trying to get to safety for years, but because they were given the wrong information, they weren’t able to make any progress.
They were just spinning their wheels. And all of our coaches here make it a safe space for women to start making their way to safety in a way that they’ve never attempted to before.
Katherine: Yeah. And I tell you, knowledge is power. I believe courage is contagious. And when you get into group with these women, and maybe they’re a few steps ahead and you see the courage, it’s like, I think I can do that too. And it’s just so empowering.
Anne: It is and the living free workshop is incredible and women are using those strategies to make progress.
It’s just humbling to see so many women making progress. So, thank you so much for sharing your experience and thank you for coming on today’s episode.
Katherine: Thank you so much. It was fun. It was an honor.
Find Your Voice – How To Heal After Emotional Abuse
Mar 01, 2022
Emotional abuse and intimate betrayal can make you feel small. What does it mean to find your voice?
However you choose to find your voice, know that your story is important. Your experiences are real, and we believe you.
Transcript: Find Your Voice After Emotional Abuse
Anne: I have Allyson on the podcast today. She’s an advocate for women and a believer in self-defense. She has a black belt in traditional TaeKwonDo and helps teach women’s self-defense classes to help them find their voice and meaning after abuse.
Welcome, Allyson.
Allyson: Oh, thank you. It’s good to be here.
Anne: So, what does “find your voice” mean to you?
Allyson: It was definitely a long time coming. I came from a home of abuse. I’ve had experiences of men following me, pestering me. I’m short and tiny and an easy target. It was important to me not to be a target anymore. I decided to attend martial arts classes. I wanted to learn technique, because when a guy is six feet plus, he’s got a lot of mass behind him.
And if you know what you’re doing, technique wins. Even with the enormous size difference. You can get out, escape, defend yourself. And of course, you always feel dumb going in there. You know, people are looking at me a little funny, and you’re like, you want me to do what? You want me to, are you sure? I went from scared to do anything. To where I am now today, I’m teaching women how to defend themselves.
Anne: Making meaning in finding our voices takes time and effort. We can do it in various ways. I started podcasting, I garden.
Empowerment Through Self-Defense
Anne: How did self-defense empower you to find your voice to recover from emotiona abuse? I’m guessing they taught you ways of using your voice to defend yourself.
Allyson: My biggest one is don’t be afraid to turn around and face your attacker. Whoever is tailing you, the easiest way to get out of something without him touching you is to face him eye to eye. For example, I was out grocery shopping. This guy just started following me with an empty cart. And at first I was like, okay, maybe you just need one item, but no, he just kept on following me.
He wasn’t picking up vegetables, nothing. He was intently and closely following me. And of course, my hackles rose. I turned around. I looked him straight in the eye and I was like, do you need something? Can I help you? And that’s all it took. He left his cart and ran. I have friends who worked at the prison, and he’s like, honestly, if women knew the power they have by making eye contact, like, I’m not going to put up with this.
These men want an easy target. They want somebody who’s not going to scream, the person who’s going to freeze. As soon as you put up, who are you? What is your name? What do you want? And it’s the tone of your voice. You notice my voice changed when I said that? I wasn’t nice to this guy. It was either you tell me what you want or you beat it. So that right there is power. Do not think you are powerless.
An Example Of How To Find Your Voice
Anne: If we can prepare our daughters and also train ourselves now that we know more, what to expect. When I was young, my mom told me, if you’re ever being raped, look him straight in the eye and say loudly and clearly, this is rape and I will prosecute. I see you and I know what you’re doing. And I’ve taught my daughter that from a very young age. I’ve also taught all my kids basic self-defense.
An abusive man feels entitled to your attention, and your body. And it’s shocking. Sometimes we don’t want people to talk to us, and it’s okay for us to say, no, thank you, and just move on. So I have a policy in my home that I do not open the door for anyone I do not know, like a door to door salesman.
And I mentioned that I loved gardening. One day, I was in my front yard. One of these sales people walked up to me and started talking to me. I interrupted him after he said maybe one word and said, I’m not interested. Please go away immediately. I didn’t even listen to him for a second.
Instead of going away immediately, he started asking me questions. Like, oh, what are you doing? How long have you … And I said, stop talking. I’ve told you, I don’t want to talk to you. Go away, then he actually continued to try to talk to me. I stopped him again and said, you’re still talking and you’re on my property. You need to leave now. Would you like me to call the police? His entitlement was shocking.
Women Don’t Owe Abusive Men Anything
Anne: He walked away. Like I was the crazy one, even though I had told him three times, I did not want to talk to him, and he needed to go away. I was like, no, you are the crazy one, mister. Here are the facts: Women don’t owe abusive men anything. We don’t owe them a conversation. This is important to understand when you are wondering how do I set boundaries?
Allyson: Recently, I felt that it is my empowerment as a female and mother to tell my boys: If a girl says no, it is your job to walk away and forget about it, move on. It’s her right to say no. And of course, they’re looking at me going, okay, duh. She says, no. I’m not going to keep pestering her. I’m like, good. Don’t, because you have that right to say no, everybody has that right.
Anne: Now, due to the Living Free strategies, I can talk to them because he doesn’t take up any space in my head anymore.
And the Living Free strategies protect my mind and emotions from everything he does now. It’s a miracle, I’m so grateful. I discovered those strategies because I lived in fear for so long. I finally experienced the stages of deliverance from abuse. During that time, when I could not talk to him in person ever, ever, ever. I appreciated the mediator of Our Family Wizard. I still appreciate it. And I show people how to use it in Living Free Workshop.
Find Your Voice After Abuse: The Importance Of Having A Mediator
Allyson: It is fantastic to have a mediator, always to have a mediator, whether it’s your lawyer, a family member, a friend, somebody who’s got the balls to translate for you and do what needs to be done. Because the most intimidating thing ever is to face your harasser and have the presence of mind to be like, oh, I know exactly what I want to say to you. I know very few women who can do that, very few.
So I still haven’t approached my abuser. I know in my head exactly what I’d want to say, but abusers rationalize like crazy. And then you go away thinking, wait a sec, am I a crazy one? Wait, I thought I wasn’t crazy, but I’m starting to think I’m crazy. Maybe I just imagined this. So, put that barrier between you and them. And this took many years of training for me, because I grew up abused. So it was difficult for me to find my voice or even say anything.
https://youtube.com/shorts/WzKnamgNwWQ
And it was, when I started martial arts training. They are there to give you that confidence, to give you that feeling like I can do anything. So find your voice and use it. Whatever you do, do not freeze.
Anne: Yeah. In the moment, that’s a trauma response. It’s our natural way of resisting the abuse. And once you figure out what’s going on, take action. And that’s why I teach women’s safety strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. How to create those protective barriers between you and the abuser. So finding your voice can be more than verbally confronting an abuser. It can mean that we finally speak to safe people.
Support & Strategies To Take Action
Anne: We can attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, and that we reach out for support from people who understand. Those who have been through it know how important it is to find your voice. And using strategy to determine what their character is, because communication often puts you in more danger. They’re so good at manipulating. Like what you said before, they’re so good at rationalizing.
It may be dangerous to talk to them. So finding your voice might mean learning strategies and taking action. And you can learn all about those strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. You have to be safe before you can begin the healing.
Allyson, with your history of abuse, decided to do martial arts, which helped find your voice. Martial arts sounds like an awesome option for women.
Allyson: I highly recommend martial arts to everybody. I think it’s an essential social skill. It’s very important.
Anne: Yeah, whatever works, right? Whatever works for you is the right thing to do. Allyson, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Allyson: Thanks for having me.
Finding Out My Husband Betrayed Me With Men – Savannah’s Story
Feb 22, 2022
Discovering my husband betrayed me with men, when I thought he was straight, was the most painful experience of my life.
Savannah shares her story of resilience and acceptance in the aftermath of her husband coming out after fourteen years of intimate betrayal.
My Husband Betrayed Me With Men – The Emotions Are Overwhelming
In fact many women in our community face intense and overwhelming emotions in the face of learning that their husband has betrayed them with men. They grapple with blame from clergy, family, and friends, while trying to stay in the reality that sexual orientation or preference has literally nothing to do with them. Also, below is a list of common emotions and thoughts that women facing this situation experience:
Intense rejection
Fear that they “turned” their husband gay
Shame
Embarrassment
Grief over the thought that the relationship was never authentic
Anger
Intense frustration over the time wasted
Sorrow for children they share with their partner
Self-blame for not “seeing it sooner”
Self-loathing as they perceive themselves as not good enough, or not attractive enough to “keep their husband straight”
Intense anxiety that the same situation will play out again in future
Am I Horrible For Feeling This Way?
When your husband betrays you with men, you may grapple with the worry that you are homophobic for feeling complex emotions, including anger, disgust, rejection, or grief. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.
At BTR, we understand the devastation, shame, and heartbreak that victims experience. Please don’t suffer alone. Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today.
Transcript: Finding Out My Husband Betrayed Me With Men
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Savannah. She was raped at 17 years of age, and a pregnancy resulted from that. She chose to keep her child. And 23 years later, after 17 years of marriage, she found out her “husband betrayed me with men.” And for most of their marriage he was a sex addict. To heal from these traumas, she started summiting mountains, running ultra marathons, regular marathons, standup paddling, any kind of active outdoor activity.
She did it. I also love being out in nature, so it’s great to talk to someone with similar interests. Let’s start with your story. How did you feel when you found out about your husband?
Savannah: Not only is he a sex addict, but he’s also addicted to drugs and alcohol and was leading a double life. And I didn’t know any of it. I found out on Thanksgiving Eve. Once I realized his behaviors were not something I’m accustomed to seeing, he literally tripped out on drugs when he came home that evening.
I started going through his phone, his websites, and everything on technology. Through that, I started realizing. oh my gosh. We have a major problem here. This is not just drug related, there are other addictions involved. It was devastating. It was devastating to go through and scroll through your husband’s phone, which I’m sure many of you have had to do, and finding all this pornography. My discovery happened over five days in front of my eyes.
Understanding Her Husband’s Identity
Anne: When you found out that your husband had betrayed you with men? Are you thinking, is my husband gay? Like, what were your thoughts?
Savannah: In my situation, my husband, I found out, is gay. It does not mean they’re gay if that’s happening with other women’s husbands. For my husband, he identified as gay. He moved out. We are now divorced. And he does not even live near me right now. He is now leading and living a gay lifestyle. For me, I never thought I’m not enough. In some cases, maybe I’m too much. You know? Maybe I’m just too much.
Just from women who have these conversations about this exact topic, my spouse is leading a same sex lifestyle. And I even had that thought, “did you turn them gay?” No, I didn’t turn my husband gay. Women ask, Why are they doing that? Why are they turning to men? Many women have these thoughts, this isn’t even about you. None of this is about you. This is about them not being truthful or honest where they’re at. And unfortunately, getting projected onto you.
Because again, it doesn’t always mean they’re gay. It could mean that for whatever reason they’re turning to men as a way of acting out. For him, he just wasn’t living an authentic life.
For myself, it was 14 years worth. So, for who I am as a woman, I’m a mom of three boys. It would be very difficult for me to be in a relationship when he’s identifying himself as wanting to be with a man. I’m not a man.
Deciding to Leave
Savannah: Once all this surfaced, I realized our intimacy wasn’t what I needed, what I wanted, and what I deserved as a woman. So, I couldn’t live in a relationship like that anymore, because I wasn’t living in an authentic life because he wasn’t living in an authentic life. My husband betrayed me with men. My choice was to leave. I do know women who have chosen to stay with their spouses, because even though they identify as gay, they have chosen. No judgment. Look, if that’s what works for them, who am I to judge?
Anne: Yeah, I think that’s important to trust that a woman will make the best decision for her, depending on her circumstances.
Savannah: Right, and for their kids. Some people choose to stick around or stay together as a couple until the kids are older. More power to you if that’s what you choose to do. Because I actually did try, I actually believe it or not. I did try for a little bit to make it work. I didn’t want to make any rash decisions until I had all the facts and emotionally felt secure enough to do it from a place of clarity.
He went to rehab for 35 days, and then we talked to the kids in the spring, and then also again in the fall. I’m one of those people where I have to go to the extent to make sure that I’m making that right decision. And so I was building the foundation of what could my life look like. Could we even possibly make any of this work?
Now we’re into the future until the kids get older. And in the fall, I knew it wouldn’t work.
My Husband betrayed me with men: Support from the Church
Savannah: In terms of the church community, I’m Catholic. I immediately went to Monsignor. He was extremely supportive. I told him my husband betrayed me with men. He understood. What was going on and what needed to be done. He’s never once questioned my decision or the way I’ve handled it. He held me to my own beliefs to ensure that I was doing the right thing as a mom, which I appreciated. I don’t listen to a lot of the talk people do behind my back.
People ask me what about the people that talk behind your back when you’re sitting in the pew. Do they look at you funny or whatever? I don’t care. I’ve just never been one to care. I’ve been through enough stuff in my life that I know that if I’m standing in my own place of integrity and my own truth, and doing what I know I need to be doing for my kids and myself. The rest can go by the wayside.
I’m actually getting my marriage annulled right now.
Anne: I am not super familiar with Catholic theology, so can you explain a little bit more about how that works?
Savannah: I’m just starting the process of annulment, and pretty much, from what I understand, and I may even be getting some of this wrong. But annulment is in the church’s eyes, the marriage. It’s not that it didn’t exist, but it created when one or the other was untruthful. I believe he knew, I believe he had some sense of what was going on within himself before we married. He says, no. I don’t want to speak on his behalf. That’s my own thought process and my own woman intuition.
Faith & Betrayal
Savannah: In the eyes of the church, you did not enter this marriage in a truthful way. So the marriage gets annulled.
Anne: In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the church I belong to. I was married in the temple, and there are very specific requirements to do that. One of them is that you’re honest in your dealings with your fellow men. And one of them is that you obey the law of chastity, which in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints means you are not using pornography and that you are not masturbating.
If you marry someone in the temple, you assume those things are true. By them saying, I am temple worthy, and not tell you that they’re lying is extremely traumatic for so many women who find out later.
Whoa, he lied to marry me in the temple. And he not only lied to me. But there are so many witnesses of this temple marriage. There are multiple levels of clergy, and also family around who witnessed this. And all the family assumes these principles are being adhered to. So the lie is big when this happens within my church. And I think that’s why it’s so traumatizing to women when they find out.
Savannah: You said that much better than I did. It was under false pretenses. We had 300 people at my wedding. It’s a big deal. As a woman, to be standing up there accepting this man who I thought was coming into this marriage one way. Instead, my husband betrayed me with men. He was betraying me for years. It’s not like it just happened once. For me, it was such a deep level of betrayal that I fought with this one.
Annulment Decision
Savannah: When Monsignor first told me, you can get your marriage annulled, I said, no way. I don’t want to get my marriage annulled. It was still a marriage even though my husband betrayed me with men. And now, looking back and taking a lot more spiritual time to assess this, as a woman and mom, I’m thinking. He’s offering this to me, he knows it can be done, and will go through the steps to get done.
So, for myself, it’s me wanting to spiritually say to myself, you did the right thing, the other person did not, and under God’s law, under my own beliefs, and my own values and morals. So I want to enter this next stage of my life on my terms. And that means spiritually, according to my church.
Anne: I appreciate you explaining that. Thank you. In my faith, the covenants we make in the temple are with God and your spouse. I felt like I wanted to maintain my covenant with God. And some women in my faith want to cancel their temple sealing, which doesn’t mean they didn’t keep their covenants with God.
So, it’s interesting that as we embark on this healing journey, we have to grapple with what these promises meant to us as individuals. And also how our faith community perceives them, and how we want to define what happened to us. There are no wrong answers for us.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we just want to support women in their decisions, because they know what’s best for them and their situation. As we’re talking about finding out that your husband has betrayed you with men.
My Husband betrayed me with men: Advice for Betrayal Trauma
Anne: Do you have any advice for listeners who have experienced a husband betrayed me with men?
Savannah: Definitely, look for somebody versed in betrayal trauma. Because the bottom line is actually the betrayal, right? Take some time for yourself, connect yourself with nature. Take time to meditate, take time to pray, take time to find your own safety .
So many addiction recovery programs approach it from the perspective of betrayers, from the perpetrator’s perspective, rather than the victim’s perspective. It’s so important for women to know that this devastation is normal, that anyone who has been through something like this would be devastated.
Savannah: Yes, because people look at me and I am an insanely happy person, and people know me as always happy, like you’re always happy. I have moments of sadness. And I think people forget that all those who have been through this, the survivors, have moments of anxiety or sadness. Where we’re just distraught because we have been through a lot. It’s monumental, the amount of devastation that a betrayal can do to a person.
Group Support & Recovery
Savannah: Above all group was monumental in my healing from my husband betrayed me with men. Group every Wednesday, I needed that to get through this. That’s where I was at. Because it’s about learning the tools to get through it much quicker as time goes on.
So the sadness, when I find something new, even in this summer, I found something else out that I didn’t know. And so when I find those things out, it takes me into that little, they call it the rabbit hole. The little rabbit hole of devastation. But now what’s cool is that I now know the tools to pull myself out of it right away.
Anne: Yeah, having those strategies helps shorten that time from when we get an injury to when we can heal. Because post divorce, it continues to happen. Group support from Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. And the strategies we learn in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, Those really help us heal as quickly as possible.
Savannah, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today.
What Does The Bible REALLY Say About Divorce?
Feb 15, 2022
Women who discover their husband’s infidelity might wonder, what does the Bible say about divorce? If you’re experiencing this type of emotionally and psychologically abusive behavior from your husband, here are some scriptures from the Bible about divorce you need to know.
If you’re considering divorce, it’s important to determine if you’re experiencing emotional abuse. Take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: What Does The Bible Say About Divorce?
Anne: It’s just me today. Many women want to know. What does the Bible say about divorce? Regarding divorce, the Bible can be interpreted in different ways, but I wonder if we take a step back. And look at all the other issues related to what our husband is doing. And then maybe that is what the Bible says about divorce.
For example, I did an episode called What Does the Bible Say About Boundaries in Marriage? Divorce is a boundary. And in that episode, I talked a lot about how God commands women to separate themselves from evil, so it may not necessarily say the word divorce. But he is commanding us to separate ourselves from people who would harm us. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is interfaith and inter paradigm. So, if you don’t want to hear Christian scriptures, skip this episode. I happen to be Christian.
And so reading scriptures helps me process things. But if you’re not, and want to skip this episode, go ahead and do that. A lot of times I speak from a secular place, so everybody feels welcome here. And I welcome everyone’s experience. The rest of this episode is from a recording I did years ago when I was still processing what was happening to me. I was reading the scriptures a lot to try to find peace and hope. And through doing that, I discovered the strategies I now teach in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
And through those strategies, I believe God completely delivered my children and me, from my ex’s abuse. That we were still experiencing eight years post divorce.
Personal Journey & Strategies
Anne: These strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced. And they work whether you’re Christian or not. When I taught the strategies in the Living Free Workshop, I did not teach them in a religious context. I just taught them. This is the strategy, and this is how you implement it. The intent is to help you determine your husband’s true character, to see it. And many of the scriptures I studied years ago that you’ll hear in this recording today. Things about what the Bible says about divorce, and to perceive things accurately.
And that is my goal for all women, regardless of their faith or paradigm. How can we accurately perceive our husband’s character? And then what strategies do we need to use to protect ourselves? And if you’re interested in listening to what I sounded like years ago and how I was processing these things, then join me in learning what the Bible say about divorce. Here’s that recording:
I was studying the New Testament from the Bible, and those who are not Christian, hopefully you can still glean some wisdom and insight from my studies. I want to dedicate this episode to some of the verses that I read. They are applicable to our situation. Similarly, there are some very misogynistic verses in the Bible, particularly by Paul. I will not focus on those today.
If you’re wondering about these scriptures that say women should be silent, they shouldn’t speak in church, or they should obey their husbands, read the book, Jesus Feminist by Sarah Bessie. That is on our website, btr.org/ books. You want to be sure you are reading the right kind of Christian intimacy books. She really puts all those types of scriptures in context, and I don’t want to focus on those today.
God’s Boundaries for Safety
Anne: If you’ve read those scriptures and thought, what is going on with these verses? What is the Bible really saying about divorce? I highly recommend that book. What I wanted to talk about was scriptures that can bring us comfort. And also help us know what the bible says about boundaries in marriage. that setting boundaries is God’s way of helping us stay safe. I believe God is a God of boundaries, and the commandments are to protect ourselves. And they’re also to protect other people. So for example, if we do not lie, we are protecting other people, and it is a way to show love for ourselves and our fellow men.
So as I go through some of these scriptures, you’ll see some patterns emerge. I read from the King James Version, so if you use a different translation or version, I’ll just say the scriptures and the verses. So I’m going to start in Matthew 5. This one struck me. This is the Sermon on the Mount, and 10 and 11 apply to us. It says, “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
“Blessed are ye. When men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake.” Now, when it says for my sake, I believe that is the sake of truth. I also believe in an afterlife, and I believe this life that we have now is hell. Like, it’s the worst it’s ever going to get right now. And that helps bring me peace. Some people might call it the spirit, some women who are not religious might just call it their gut or their intuition.
What the bible says about divorce: Trusting our intuition
Anne: If we can learn to trust our intuition or the spirit, it will be the most accurate way to discern truth. I know of a woman who had no proof affairs. He was a high-up member in her church and community, and also a seminary teacher. He had a ministry. She decided to file for divorce just on her gut alone, having absolutely no proof. And people called her crazy, her kids called her crazy, her church leaders called her crazy. She is one of the bravest women I know.
Her courage is inspiring to me. She has been reviled, she’s been persecuted. All manner of evil has been said against her, falsely. For Christ’s sake, or for the truth’s sake. We have obviously talked about Matthew 5:28 on the podcast, saying that watching anything to get turned on is adultery. This is what the bible says about cheating husbands. Christ says himself in that verse, “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” This is what the bible says about infidelity and divorce.
We know exploitative materials use or lusting is not something to be taken lightly. It is an abuse of trust. In Matthew 6:22, it says, “The light of the body is the eye. If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.” Then verse 23, “But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness.”
You can see infographics that explain many of the other concepts I teach on the podcast on our social media channels. You can find us on Instagram @btr.org_ or on YouTube just search btr.org just click the link and you’ll find our channel.
Four Pillars of Abuse
Anne: I’ll explain the four pillars of abuse. There’s a good infographic on social media. The infographics are on this podcast episode. The four pillars of abuse are number one, entitlement and objectification. I’m entitled to it. This is an object. I’m entitled to a woman cleaning the bathrooms, to her cooking. I’m entitled to view her as an object. I deserve it. That type of mindset. The second pillar is control, manipulation, lies, and secrecy.
Calculated behaviors to try to control an outcome. It’s goal oriented good guy facade. I’m going to manipulate other people’s perception of me by showing up at church, by doing service. It’s calculated because it includes lies and secrecy. The third pillar of abuse is lack of integrity, both relational and personal. If they say they are true to their wife, but they’re visiting prostitutes or masturbating. Then that is another way they abuse that relationship or trust.
The fourth pillar of abuse is lack of accountability. They have no empathy, no remorse, and they do not make restitution when they hurt somebody. So when we talk about those four pillars of abuse, you can see that eye is not single and full of light. Those four pillars of abuse make it so he’s not able to perceive things accurately. The way they perceive the world makes it so their whole body is full of darkness. I would say my ex is like completely and totally delusional.
He cannot view the world from a perspective of truth or accuracy. The way he interprets the world isn’t accurate. This is a way of looking at the world, and it’s systemic, and it’s societal. The Bible says to divorce yourself from wickedness.
Financial & Personal Struggles
Anne: So, “trying to help” a man stop viewing the world this way is impossible. They have to do it themselves. The man has to admit that the way he views the world is skewed. In that same chapter, Matthew chapter 6:31 through 34, I love this. It helps me when I get stressed about finances, which I don’t have at all. And my house is disgusting. The structure is my dream house, but the actual inside is old and gross. Like I have carpet under my dining room table, and it bothers me.
And I dream day in and day out of replacing that with luxury vinyl planks. That’s what I’m looking forward to. It really stresses me out, but right now I can’t do anything about it. And I can’t do anything about my long-term financial future right now. All I can do is take a step at a time. I was at the point four years ago where I didn’t know how to pay for groceries. I didn’t know how I would pay for my house payment.
So I’ve been there. Now I can pay for groceries, which is great. I can pay my house payment, but there are other things that I’m stressed about. So no matter what stage you are at, this scripture may or may not help.
In the Bible, it says about divorce: Verse 31. “Therefore, take no thought saying what shall we eat or what shall we drink or wherewithal shall we be clothed? For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things, but seek ye first the kingdom of God.” And I’ll say there, seek ye first the truth. It says, “but seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness.”
What does the bible say about divorce? Living in the Now
Anne: For those who are atheists or not religious, perhaps the way to say this would be, but seek ye first truth. “And all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself.”
One way to put this is we’re in this eternal moment of now. It’s always now. It’s never going to be tomorrow. When I was so traumatized and having a difficult time just functioning,
I had a friend who would say, “Let’s look at right now. Do you have a roof over your head right now?” And I would say yes, and she’d say, “Do you have food right now? Are you hungry?” And I’d be like, no, I ate. “Do you have water right now?” And I’d be like, yes, I have water right now. Taking one moment at a time when the trauma is extreme really helped me. And studying the scriptures.
https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I
Because there’s no other way to do it. There’s no other way but through. And I love this, because if we focus on now, especially when the trauma is intense, we will eventually come out of the fog. And all we have to worry about is right now. So, this always now idea, I think, is what this scripture is talking about. And it can help us get through the trauma. The now principle still applies to me. I’m concerned about my disgusting carpet, but I can say, right now I can go for a walk. Right now I can take care of myself, all right.
Frustrations with Prayer
Anne: Matthew 7 is rough. I’m going to preface this part with, I hate scriptures like this, because I believe them. And then I do what it says, and I don’t get what I want. And it irks me, and it frustrates me, and it makes me very mad.
So in Matthew 7, verses 7 through 10, in the Bible, it says this that can be applied to divorce, and probably all of you have done this, and probably most of you feel the same way about it, but seven says, “Ask and it shall be given unto you. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you for everyone that asketh receiveth and he, that seeketh Findeth, and to him, that knocketh if shall it be opened.”
So I’m sure many of you have gone to church, or someone, a friend has said, have you prayed about it? And you look at them and roll your eyes, and you’re like, oh, good idea. I never thought about that. Of course, you’ve prayed about it. If you believe in God, you have knelt down, you have bawled your eyes out, you have screamed and yelled to God. Of course, you have prayed about it, have asked. Of course you have begged God for help. You’ve begged him for miracles.
And this scripture says, “Ask and it shall be given unto you.” Now, if you’re like me and you’re like, this is a bunch of bullcrap, like I pray and pray and pray, and it doesn’t happen. I really don’t know what to say, actually, except for that in spite of how frustrated I get, in spite of how it seems like some people pray and they have answers.
Gratitude For What i Went Through
Anne: Some people pray and their husband’s like, oh, I’ve been terrible. And they start taking accountability and being honest. I thought that happened to me. For those who know my whole story, there was a stint of five years where I thought that was happening. Like, he seemed humble. He seemed honest. But he wasn’t. He was grooming me that whole time, but he seemed like it. So there are a few big giant prayers that I have prayed. I’ve searched and prayed.
One is for a righteous, noble, non-abusive man to come into my life. To have a beautiful friendship and relationship that is kind, loving, and amazing. I’ve prayed that prayer so many times, and it has not been given to me. So do I just take this scripture and throw it out the window and say, okay, I’m going to stop praying? Or do I say maybe I’m not ready, or maybe God is preparing this for me. Or maybe it won’t be in this life? But I will say this morning I felt the most, like, amazing sense of gratitude for what I had been through.
And an amazing sense of gratitude for my ex-husband, because I feel like where I am now, I am so much healthier. I’m so much happier. I have so much more knowledge and wisdom. This is what I have gained from studying the Bible about divorce. Now, I’m not the wisest or most knowing. I have a long way to go. But I’m so much better prepared now. And I don’t know if I could have had that deep and abiding, kind, loving relationship before. And maybe I could have it now. I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe he’s preparing me for it. Maybe he’s not. I don’t know.
What does the bible say aout divorce: Choosing to Believe
Anne: When it comes to these types of scriptures, I have to make a choice. Do I believe in God and do I believe this scripture? I can choose yes or no. The choice I make is yes. I choose to believe, to trust that the prayers I am saying. Even though it doesn’t feel like it, I’m mad, and I’m frustrated. That really when it comes down to it, God listens to my prayers and has my best interest at heart.
And the things happening in my life are happening for my good. Now that sounds like trying to placate a victim to get her to shut up. But it also might be a loving God who is leading me, guiding me, with the Bible and his words on divorce. And taking me to a better place. I’m going to choose to believe that. And the reason I’m going to believe that is because I think it’s true. Also, the alternative is so dark, depressing, and sad, and it makes me sad. And where is that going to get me? I don’t want to go that route.
At least for me, I just make a choice. And that choice, I believe, leads me in a better direction. So 9 and 10 say, “Or what man is there of you whom if his son ask bread will he give him a stone?” And in 10, “or if he ask a fish will he give him a serpent?” Everyone here feels like they’ve asked God for bread, and God has given them rocks. Everyone here feels like they asked for a fish, and God gave them a serpent. We’ve all felt like that. We feel like we’re praying, we’re praying, we’re praying, and we’re getting rocks. Or we’re getting snakes.
Answers To Prayers
Anne: When I feel like that, it humbles me. Humbles me to the point where I kneel down and say, Okay, I feel like I’m getting rocks, and I feel like I’m getting snakes. What I want is bread. And I want fish. So what do I need to learn? Please teach me. Please guide me. So currently, with these scriptures from the Bible about divorce, what I’m considering, help me understand what you want me to think. What you want me, God, to see. How can I remove these ways in which I perceive things that may be incorrect, and start viewing things truthfully?
And truth be told, so many of my prayers have been answered. The prayers that always get answered in my house are prayers for lost objects. I know that sounds ridiculous, but every time we lose something, I tell my son, hey, pray, let’s try and find, it could be anything, a library book, an earring, whatever. In fact, I lost one of my favorite earrings, we said a prayer, and my son found it. On the floor, it was a tiny little, cubic zirconium. I don’t even know if that’s how you say it, but, like, little fake diamond stud.
Which should have been impossible to find. He found it. I love the little prayers that get answered, because I think, okay, God always answers my prayers when I ask Him to help me find something. He does, and I think that’s funny. So, if you’re thinking, He never answers my prayers. Are there types of prayers answered? For me, it’s finding objects. There are other types of prayers that are frequently, quickly answered. In fact, I remember one clearly.
Collective Prayers for Truth
Anne: I was skiing in a big bowl, and there was lots of powder, and I lost my ski. We looked and looked and looked, and I couldn’t find it. I was giving up hope. It had been a long time. And I thought, oh, I need to pray. I prayed, stood up. Walked over, stuck my hand in the snow, and pulled out my ski. So, does God answer my prayers? Does He hear me? The answer to that is yes. And I don’t know why some of my prayers have not been answered. But I do know that many of them have been.
I encourage all of us to think about the collective prayers we are all saying, because we’re all saying the same prayer. When will truth win? When will we be protected? And if all of us pray this collective prayer of truth. And we’re all praying this collective prayer of peace, and it’s not being answered. My guess is God has something big in store for all of us. And maybe it will happen for all of us all at once. Maybe he’ll come down and like strike all the abusive men from the earth all at once. I don’t know.
But this is a collective prayer. We’re all praying together. And I want to continue to do that, because I believe I’m choosing to believe. That God is hearing us, because he’s our only hope. We know that the law doesn’t help us, that therapists don’t. We know that like society doesn’t see it. So we know that God is our only option here, so let’s not give up on him. In Matthew nine, in the bible it says about divorce and abusive men.
What does the bible say about divorce? Fear Not the Unrighteous
Anne: “Wherefore, Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? Only God can see the heart.” And then in verse 16, “No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment. For that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. 17 neither do men put new wine in old bottles, else the bottles break, and the new wine runneth out, and the bottles perish. But they put new wine into new bottles and both are preserved.”
So he’s talking about this overall change, right? So if you have someone who is perceiving things incorrectly, you can’t just change one thing about that perception. You have to change the heart and mind. You have to change those perceptions. And I think that is true for us as well. My perceptions have changed a lot. I perceived myself as safe, that my husband was a good guy. I perceived other abusive men as, oh, they just, they need love.
And I didn’t understand boundaries. Like my whole perception has shifted, and that has helped keep me safe. In Matthew 10: 26, in the Bible it says about divorce. We have Christ telling the righteous directly to fear not the unrighteous. He says, “Fear them not, for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed and hid that shall not be known. Then he tells us, “Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your father, but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, for ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Christ’s Invitation for Rest
Anne: The truth will come out. It will come out. I don’t know how. I don’t know when. All of us pray for that. But the important thing is that we walk in truth. That we are shedding our own perceptions that we are becoming healthier. And this one, of course, everyone loves Matthew 11:28 through 30. “Come unto me, all ye that labor, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me. For I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
So when I study the scriptures, I underline bad things red. Things that hurt people, they hurt me or they hurt someone else. Then dark purple is boundaries, faith or belief is in orange, so if I’m like oh, this is what I want to do. I don’t know if I believe it, but I’m going to choose to believe this thing. That’s in orange. This has helped me to learn what the Bible says about divorce and abuse.
So in Matthew 15, I have a lot of red, and in verse 8, talking about people who do not live in truth. “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching the doctrines of the commandments of men.” A lot of us have seen this. We have a husband who confesses to love us. They say that, but their actions are different. Or they show up at church and say they love God, but then they’re unwilling to be honest.
Call for Community Insights
Anne: Or to be faithful to their marriage vows. Matthew verse 11, int the Bible says about divorce, “Not that which goeth into the mouth defile a man.” So, for example, you know, what someone hears may or may not hurt them. It does, we know pornography will hurt them. We know that certain things we hear are going to hurt us. It says, “but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.”
This is saying we’ll all be exposed to harmful things. In 15:18 he says, “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart, and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.” These are the things which defile a man, we have experienced this ourselves, men bearing false witness against us. So they’re saying I was a witness to her not loving me or her not respecting me,
I appreciate those who are not religious being patient and listening to these insights that I gained. Those who study the scriptures, I would love to hear your thoughts about how scriptures have helped. And those who aren’t, any quotes you have or insights or maybe books that you study that have helped you heal and find truth for you, would be awesome.
So comment at the end of this transcript. I want to hear what you have to say. We’re all trying to get through this together. And if we can be unified in our desire for truth and justice, then we can change the world together. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session, I want to hear your comments, so please comment below.
What does the bible say about divorce? Reflections on the Past
Anne: Listening to myself way back then brings back so many memories of the fear I had and all the worries, and how I was just trying to will myself through the next day. Not knowing what would happen. And looking back now. It’s so painful to think about how I grappled with so many questions and problems. I’m so grateful to be safe where I am now. And know what I know about what the Bible says about divorce.
So again, whether you’re married, divorced or whatever stage you’re in, and no matter what your faith or paradigm is. The Living Free Workshop teaches the strategies in a secular way that works for anyone. Using those strategies helped me find peace. So to learn more, click the link.
Recovery After Betrayal: 7 Things No One Tells You
Feb 08, 2022
After the discovery of betrayal, life may feel overwhelming. Here’s what I learned about recovery after betrayal from interviewing four women who experienced betrayal in their marriage.
Recovery After Betrayal: Here’s What No One Tells You
Name it. It’s important to name betrayal as domestic abuse.
Emotional safety first. It’s important to put your emotional safety above anything else.
Drop the shame. His betrayal and his lies have nothing to do with you, and you didn’t cause it.
Observe, since the betrayal couldn’t have happened without all his lies, it’s important to watch his behavior and make sure it matches his words.
Your body knows. Many women live with insomnia, digestive issues, chest tightness, and anxiety long before they understand that betrayal is happening. It’s important to listen to our bodies.
Anger can help you. Anger can power your next steps toward emotional safety.
Grief comes in waves. There’s so much grief involved with betrayal, and it’s really important to be with people who understand.
Quick FAQ on Recovery After Betrayal
How long does recovery after betrayal take? Longer than you want, shorter than you fear. It’s nonlinear; measure by stability and peace, not calendar dates.
Anne: After interviewing four betrayed wives. Here’s what I learned about recovery after betrayal.
Number one, name it. It’s important to name betrayal as domestic abuse
Number two, emotional safety first,. It’s important to put your emotional safety above anything else and take steps to learn how to heal from emotional abuse.
Three, drop the shame. His betrayal and his lies have nothing to do with you, and nothing you did or didn’t do was the cause of cheating.
Number four, observe. Since the betrayal couldn’t have happened without all his lies, it’s important to watch his behavior and make sure it matches his words.
Number five, your body knows. Many women live with insomnia, digestive issues, chest tightness, and anxiety long before they understand that betrayal is happening. It’s important to listen to our bodies.
Six, anger can help you. You’ll likely go through stages of anger after infidelity. Anger can power your next steps toward emotional safety.
And number seven, grief comes in waves. With betrayal, there’s so much grief involved, and it’s really important to be with people who understand.
Before I get to their interviews, I want to go back in time. When I went through this, I felt overwhelmed. I didn’t know what to do, and I didn’t know where to turn.
Doing my dishes seemed impossible as a single mom. It seemed completely overwhelming. A place like Betrayal Trauma Recovery, this place I founded didn’t exist. I didn’t wanna get divorced, and so I went to 12-Step. My 12-Step sponsor told me my character defects were the real problem. She said that if God removed those defects from me, I would have my best chance of saving my family.e character defects from me, that was my best chance of saving my family.
Going back in time
Anne: During that time of recovery after betrayal, I was crying a lot. And I just found this recording of my son, who pulled out a vacuum and like had the vacuum handle as the microphone. Watching that video took me back to that place, although I’m not gonna show you the video. Here’s the audio recording of that.
6 Year Old Son: When you’re feeling sad. It’s okay to cry whenever you’re feeling sad. It’s okay to cry, it’s okay to cry. If someone’s mean to you…
3 Year Old Son: Telling me to
6 Year Old Son: …cry.
3 Year Old Son: Ends up crying again
6 Year Old Son: Stop you’re interrupting it.
3 Year Old Son: No I’m not.
6 Year Old Son: Yes you are.
3 Year Old Son: No I’m not.
6 Year Old Son: And if you are a little baby. You can still cry. If you’re really, really old, you still can cry. If you’re really, really, really young, you still can cry. Yay! I love you Mom.
Anne: He was so brave and so strong now he’s over six feet tall. And he is doing really well. And he is such a good person.
I love my children, they are so close to me. I don’t think I would’ve ever had the relationship I have with them if my ex-husband had stayed in our home. So I’m reaching out across the void to you. And if you are overwhelmed, let me sit here in this overwhelm with you. If you have no idea how you’re going to pay the bills, if every option seems terrible. I’ve been there.
Trying To Survive during recovery after betrayal
Anne: I felt like I couldn’t even say anything during recovery after betrayal. Speaking the truth was getting me in trouble, and I didn’t know how to do anything else. There was no other option for me. It was maddening. After a year of 12-Step, I started realizing it wasn’t addiction. My husband was abusive. And then I started podcasting and interviewing women who listened and wanted to share their stories too.
I meet women every day who are in that place. Where they don’t know what will happen. They’re trying to survive the best way they can. I’ve interviewed you in those moments, and I’ve also interviewed you after the fact. You know, years later when you’re feeling better. So today I have four women from our community who will share their stories: Charlotte, Luna, Rhonda, and Cassandra, so they know because they’ve been part of Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
I developed the Living Free strategies, and I teach them now. Our team teaches women’s strategies in our Group Sessions. We also have The Living Free Workshop, and they’ve benefited. So many other women have benefited from the support they receive here at BTR, so they’re gonna share experiences today. Charlotte, let’s start with you.
Charlotte: Anne, I’m so sorry. I heard your podcast, but to hear your story today, my heart just breaks. Prior to our engagement and subsequent marriage, he disclosed to me that in his teens and twenties he had struggled with pornography and compulsive sexual behaviors.
I was young and naive
Charlotte: And I was young and naive, so I said, well, that’s fine. It’s in the past. And for the first year he was “sober”, if you will. I had no idea. But during our second year of marriage, I felt a disconnection during recovery after betrayal. I remember thinking, I don’t believe what you’re saying. You’re saying one thing, but I’m feeling something different.
So I think what I picked up on was there was a real disconnect emotionally. . He was saying all the right things, but I didn’t feel it in my gut. And it was shortly after a wedding anniversary. I caught him in a lie, and things started to unravel.
Three weeks later, I found out the truth. I felt devastated. I was angry. It was brutal. I would hear the outright lies, it doesn’t make sense to me. I think gaslighting is absolutely abusive. What was crazy making for me was on one hand here was this respectable, responsible man that I admired, respected, trusted.
My husband is a trained therapist, and at the time he worked in clinical mental health. On the other hand, here is this hidden life that I didn’t know about. At that point, the gaslighting and the betrayal trauma just increased exponentially, the longer the woman is subject to that man living a lie.
The third year of our marriage, I caught him in another lie. And the shame, because even though we as women haven’t done anything shameful. So many of us feel ashamed of what our husbands have done. And I can’t make a decision right now. So then I’d watch and wait and see what happens. Is he angry, defensive, blaming? Is he evasive?
He lied to everybody about whAT HAPPENED
Anne: Yeah, I was in that boat too with me, the psychological abuse was so extreme. There was literally not one interaction that I had with him where he didn’t gaslight or blame me. But I didn’t want to get divorced during recovery after betrayal. So I waited and I watched, and it was really disturbing to watch his decisions. He shocked me and shut down our bank account.
He lied to everybody about what happened. Every single choice he made was like a nightmare, and in fact, he’s still lying about what happened years later. He’s an attorney, and back then he became a mediator too. When I found out, I was just devastated. I thought he was full-blown gone.
Charlotte: The gaslighting and the blaming are so emotionally and psychologically damaging. That the person that you’ve trusted that’s supposed to have your back is actually the one that’s tuned against you in such a vicious way. So sorry.
Anne: Ditto, Charlotte, I’m so sorry about everything you’ve been through. It’s so difficult. Knowing what you know now, if you could talk to your younger self, what would you tell her?
Charlotte: Well, you know, I would tell her it’s not her fault. I think I would reiterate that to my young self. You know it’s not your fault. Whether it’s pornography use or other acting out. It’s not my fault that I trusted, it’s not our fault if they’re compulsive liars, deceive us and gaslight us.
Anne: Yeah, thanks Charlotte for sharing today. We love having you in our community.
Charlotte: Absolutely I’m so grateful for BTR. I can’t tell you how grateful I am, thank you.
Discovering Husband’s so-called addiction
Anne: All right, Luna, your turn. Thanks for sharing today. Why don’t you start with discovering your husband’s so-called addiction.
Luna: So like the slowest, most drawn out discovery story you’ve ever heard. We were married. I had a feeling really early, like even on my honeymoon, something’s not quite right. But at the same time, just thinking, “Oh it’s not a big deal. I really don’t know what husbands are like. This is my first experience.” I just dismissed those feelings.
I was pregnant with our first son. It happened to be the same year that our house was wired for the internet, and I was big, tired, and struggling with my body image. And then my husband was in the office at home, and I remember thinking “What’s happening in there?”
But at the same time, just thinking, “Whatever he wants to do in there, I don’t care.” And told myself that for oh, another three years, kind of embarrassing to go through the slow discovery.
Anne: Oh, don’t feel bad. Everyone goes through that period where they don’t know what to do. Where they’re trying to figure it out. I sure did. It’s totally normal. That’s why it’s awesome that you’re part of our community, so you can feel like you’re not alone, right?
Luna: Definitely, so then our son was born, and I remember being awake to feed him in the night. I noticed the light was on in the home office, and I just thought, “Oh wow, my husband’s awake too.” And I walked right over and opened the door. But like instantly felt this horrible flood of emotion. It felt so tangible, and I saw pornography on the computer screen, so now this thing is right in front of my eyes.
Recovery after betrayal: I COULDN’T GO THERE
Luna: But I shut the door and walked away. There was an awareness on his part that I had seen what happened, but my mom was in town. And she was with us for another week. Like I just couldn’t, I couldn’t go there.
Anne: Mm-hmm
Luna: And then I really didn’t go there, just going through the motions and coping, and existing and busy life. It just kind of dragged on.
Anne: Did you have a religious background or ethical background that caused you to think that pornography in and of itself was wrong? Or was just an icky feeling from finding that he was viewing pornography?
Luna: Definitely, the spiritual upbringing was the first thing that made me feel uncomfortable about pornography. That feeling was like just a confirmation of what I believed.
Anne: So what happened like years after not talking about it?
Luna: Well. I like to say, “I got a gift.” It wasn’t in a pretty package with a matching bow, but it was a gift to me. And that’s the gift of anger. I ended up being a very angry woman, lived with this constant low level irritation and blow-up over little stupid things. And thinking like, “This anger scares me.” I was okay being sad. And I was okay being lonely and being depressed, but the anger terrified me.
Feeling the effects of trauma
Luna: I had chest pain, I had insomnia, I had anxiety especially at night. I would lay in bed at night, and just feel like my heart is going to fly out of my chest, and feel so anxious about the reality of my life that I had coped with for so many years.
And so it was working through owning the reality of my life, where now suddenly I began to feel the effects of that trauma. It was really traumatic to pull my proverbial ostrich head out of the sand. It was the shock. I remember thinking, Can we go back, because dealing with what is actually happening in my life felt worse. It really did for a while.
Anne: Yeah, I felt the same way during recovery after betrayal. I felt the most trauma after I recognized that what I had experienced wasn’t addiction, but abuse. I mean, I had been experiencing his emotional and psychological abuse for seven years. But because I thought it was addiction, I didn’t process what I was going through. And then after we separated and I started to see what it really was, the trauma just kept coming in waves and waves. And it was intense for a long time.
Luna: I was a little bit offended with God that this was my story. I didn’t deserve it. I never asked for this to be in my story, and here I was, and how was that okay with him? So I was on the outs with God for trauma as well. I remember thinking like, “If I stay, then at least I can keep an eye on him. And I can sort of be there to protect my boys.”
Recovery after betrayal: I didn’t know where else to go
Luna: That sort of became, “If I stay, then I can make sure he’s moving forward and my kids don’t end up growing up with a pornography addict for a father.” Because you know whether our marriage makes it, that was a big question. I thought, well if I stay, I can make sure he’s doing the work and moving forward, and then that’ll make him a better father for my boys. And so I’m staying to keep an eye on him. Not the best reason, of course, to stay in a little while.
The bottom line for me is I didn’t know where else to go. It really was the catalyst that forced my hand. And made me say, “I need help. I have to get help. Something has to change inside of me, I can’t live like this.” And that’s when I found you. One of the things I love about your stuff is it’s small bite-sized serving of hope. A couple of things to take action on or to reflect on.
Anne: Absolutely, yeah, I created it in bite-sized pieces because when I went through recovery after betrayal, I couldn’t really process information. I couldn’t read, I was so overwhelmed. I just needed to take one tiny step at a time.
Luna: Exactly, in the middle of the trauma, like I couldn’t even read two pages. You give women something that they could chew, and they could swallow, and it would just carry them through one day. Maybe help them take one step, and we just need something to hold onto.
Anne: So that’s why I decided to do a podcast. Hearing other women’s stories helps us process what we’re going through.
There’s a life beyond pain and trauma
Anne: The podcast is just one episode at a time. You can listen while doing laundry. You can listen while vacuuming. With Living Free, you just do a tiny bit at a time if you want. The total runtime is like two hours 50 minutes, so you can do it all at once or a little bit at a time, however it works for you.
Luna: I love that it’s so manageable for women in trauma. With your stuff, there is a way for every woman to move forward. It’s not about whether your relationship is restored. But knowing there is peace available, and regardless of what ends up happening in your marriage, there’s a way for you to move forward. There’s a life for you beyond this pain and trauma that you’re dealing with right now.
Anne: Yeah, and you’ll have women who will walk through it with you during recovery after betrayal.
Luna: Exactly, you know, however your story ends, there is hope. The pain I experienced was so difficult and so altering. But at the same time, I felt like I found a way through. I knew I had to share it.
Anne: Well, thank you so much for sharing it. You sharing your story will help other women, so thank you Luna.
We don’t know which way is up or where to turn
Anne: Okay, Rhonda, you’re up next. Would you mind sharing what helped you heal from betrayal trauma?
Rhonda: It’s really hard Anne, because a big part of trauma and abuse is the chaos inside of ourselves. We don’t know which way is up or even where to turn. Coming to a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is a great place to go, because I immediately feel understood. There’s not a whole lot of explanation that has to happen. When you come to BTR, you see a lot of nodding of heads.
Anne: Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of head nodding and heart emojis going up in group sessions for sure.
Yeah, you know, when I went through recovery after betrayal, I really wanted a quick solution. I wanted my family to be like put back together again really fast. Many women feel guilty or pressure to have some sort of timeline for healing. How have you felt about that as you attended Group Sessions?
Rhonda: One of the things I love about BTR is that BTR coaches use methods that have been tried, that work for everybody. But another thing I love about BTR is that every individual is different. Timing is different. And so a lot of freedom to figure out really what is best for me just being guided by the coach. That’s unique to each situation, but it’s not fast for anybody. The BTR coaches, it’s a synergistic group. It’s a bunch of ladies who come from all different situations who really understand, but approach healing from a different perspective.
Recovery after betrayal: Everything is turned upside down
Rhonda: I can get the little gems from each of the coaches. And when I could put a name to what’s going on, abuse, once you’ve labeled it and recognized it, all those actions they land on him, not on you.
Anne: Yeah, it helps know what you’re actually healing from when you’re in recovery after betrayal, like you said, abuse. Yeah. So for women listening who are hesitant to call it abuse, they’re maybe thinking he’s got like childhood trauma or maybe an addiction. Maybe they’re looking for a men’s program, like to get their husband into. Do you have any thoughts for them?
Rhonda: You may label it as, you know, just a little problem that he has, something that he’s trying to overcome. But we can’t get rid of the effects. Everything is turned upside down and chaotic, because that’s what abusers do to us. It’s so scary to label it correctly, because of what the future might bring.
You get to decide, and you get to decide again tomorrow and the next day. And the next day, your path will lead you. You don’t have to be afraid of your path. If you don’t want to get divorced, you don’t have to get divorced. If you don’t want to be separated, you don’t have to be separated.
I love doing the BTR Meditations. The different topics and guided meditations help me let go of all the heavy things and focus on peace and calm. I do the meditations, because sometimes we can’t get our minds and bodies to do what we know we need to do. Meditation really helps with that. And meditations allow our minds and hearts to start to release some of the pain.
Meditation helped
Anne: Oh, that is so great to hear. At some point in my recovery, meditation was like the only thing that helped, which is why I wanted to include it in the Living Free Workshop. I’m so glad you’re finding those meditations helpful.
If you’re listening and you’re like, where are these meditations? You can go to btr.org/livingfree and find the meditations inside the Living Free Workshop. But they provide immediate peace when you can’t sleep or need peace right away. I mean, it’s really good to feel that peace, especially when we didn’t do anything wrong and you feel terrible. But we’re always doing the best we can. We’ve been doing the best we can the entire time.
Rhonda: I love that. I love that. We’re always doing the best that we can. We say, “Oh, I was such an idiot then.” No, no, I was not such an idiot. I knew my body had stored what my mind and heart couldn’t process. And sometimes the miracle is just recognition. But sometimes the miracle is physical healing.
Anne: Yeah, I have talked to so many women who had like autoimmune disorders or physical problems. And once they separated themselves from emotional and psychological abuse, their symptoms just cleared up immediately, which was an absolute miracle. So many women pray for a miracle, maybe a physical miracle of healing.
This garden is a miracle
Anne: We were gardening. And my son said to me, “Mom, this garden is a miracle. It’s so beautiful,” and he said, “Do you know what makes the miracle happen?”
And I was like, “What?”
This is the same son that you heard earlier on my recording. He said, “We do these little actions of planting these little seeds and watering, then we hope it will grow and fruit something good. And then the miracle occurs.”
And I was like, ” Wow, you are so wise.”
When I thought about the Living Free Strategies, I thought about the Israelites. There was a miracle that they could leave, but they actually had to like pack up their bags and physically walk out. God didn’t just like, you know, teleport them to the promised land.
They had a lot of work they had to do to get there, which was miserable. But eventually they did get to the promised land. So as we’re thinking about miracles, always remember the planting of the seed or that we need to pick up our bags or whatever it is that we need to do, even though it’s not our fault, to receive the miracle into our lives.
I think the most important thing is to focus on, not the outcome, but a state of being. Like we want the miracle to be emotional safety, not necessarily saving our marriage or getting divorced. Then we take steps toward emotional safety, and we can see the miracle occur in our lives. And we’re not tied to any outcome. We hope for emotional safety for you and your children.
recovery after betrayal: Feeling Hope for my life again
Rhonda: Anne, you pointed out that if we put our work towards a state of being rather than a specific outcome, God’s will grant that for us as we work towards it. And that’s where talking with people who are safe, like BTR coaches. That’s a huge miracle.
Anne: I’m so happy to hear you say that I hear so many women who come to BTR groups, like it’s so hopeful. I feel hope for my life again. Yeah, and that’s why I appreciate so many of you writing a five-star review Apple podcast for this podcast, or doing an review on Spotify, or reviewing one of my books on Amazon.
Because as you help get the word out, other women can feel this hope too. Because all of us have felt that overwhelm and just absolute sadness during recovery after betrayal.
And then when women find BTR through that. They tell me over and over again, I just wish I had found it sooner. I wish I had known sooner. So thank you to those who help me get the word out, so that we can help other women find it as soon as possible, so that they can have this information.
And that being said, I always tell women, “You found BTR at just the right time for you.” Like, let’s trust in the timing of the universe. It brought you, Rhonda, to us right at this time. Thank you so much for sharing today.
Rhonda: Thank you Anne, it’s a pleasure to be with you and I love BTR.
Survival of betrayal by two different men
Anne: Thank you. All right Cassandra, it’s your turn now, go ahead.
Cassandra: Yes, I am a survivor of betrayal, betrayed by two different men. But the emotional infidelity of one that I was engaged to at the time was terribly wounding for me. I didn’t understand what was wrong, really. We went to two different couples therapists to try to get help for what I now call emotional domestic violence through his infidelity, and it was unclear if it was a physical infidelity. It was absolutely clear it was at least an emotional infidelity. I was just called too sensitive or overactive, and neither therapist could see it.
But at the time, I was too dependent on him to leave. I just couldn’t imagine life without him. And eventually he broke up with me. Which was a great gift he gave me at that time. And then another man’s sexual infidelity, which was incredibly painful, though thankfully by that time I was in a different place. I was more independent on my own, so I could end the relationship.
Anne: With your experience with the therapists who weren’t able to identify the abuse in the betrayal, did you feel betrayed by them as well?
Cassandra: I felt angry. I felt enraged, but because they were in an expert position and I was struggling, I didn’t know for sure. I mean, I guess I can look back and say that they tried the best they could, but I think that healing from betrayal needs to be looked at from a domestic violence lens.
Support groups have been powerful
Cassandra: Now, looking back, I think they lacked insight. They lacked training, they lacked perspective. It certainly was therapy induced trauma. So gaslighting, it felt traumatic at the time, and yeah, it felt like a betrayal.
Anne: As you know from group sessions, so many women have that experience of the therapist not recognizing this as domestic abuse during recovery after betrayal, which is what it is, yeah.
Cassandra: Yeah, in group, we shared stories about how many therapists had blown us off. I think the most was six. Group is where we’re feeling safe, so we can define what fits and what doesn’t, to know where to get ready. Group is very helpful to talk about what it’s like to be betrayed and unhook the blame of self that the addict, the person doing the betraying, can place on us or the therapist who doesn’t understand, or the judgmental culture.
So definitely support groups have been really powerful. I think part of the problem is we don’t talk about it. So to hear women talk about things they did at the encouragement or coercion of their sexually addicted husband that made her feel uncomfortable, regretful, or ashamed. Like looking at pornography with her husband. She didn’t want to, but she did it because he was so insistent.
Anne: Yeah, what you’re describing is sexual coercion.
It can be overwhelming
Anne: So in group or individual sessions, women are really lucky at BTR to have coaches who understand. Our team understands to relieve us all from the guilt of being coerced when we didn’t understand what was happening during recovery after betrayal.
Cassandra: Yeah, I hear that a lot. We talk a lot about what the sex addict does, and all that can also evoke great shame. I can’t believe he did that. I can’t believe he did that to me, we feel so much guilt and shame. Sex addicts can be relentless, and it can be threatening, or blackmail, or chronic manipulation, and it can be overwhelming.
And I think that’s one thing that is missed in the conversations of so-called, you know, pornography being an okay way to explore sexuality, and there’s no harm caused by it. For me personally, I only worry about the labels as much as they help me. Part of healing from Betrayal trauma is trying to get our stories out there.
Anne: Thank you so much.
Here’s What Makes The Best Emotional Abuse Support Groups Online
Feb 01, 2022
Are you looking for the best emotional abuse support groups online? Here’s what you need to know.
1. Does The Online Emotional Abuse Support Group Have Other Resources?
The best emotional abuse support groups online have educational resources like a podcast, workshops, or even quizes to help you understand exactly what’s happening to you.
For example, did you know there are over 19 different types of emotional abuse? Take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types.
2. Do The Online Emotional Abuse Support Groups Cover All Types of Emotional Abuse?
If the support group doesn’t understand betrayal trauma, which is emotional abuse caused by infidelity and deceit, then the group may not meet your needs.
3. Does the Support Group Meet Multiple Times a Day in ALL Time Zones?
4. Does The Emotional Abuse Support Group Actually Help You Get To Emotional Safety?
A lot of support groups blame you for what’s going on. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we never victim blame. Instead, we help victims figure out exactly what’s going on and what to do next through our Living Free Workshop.
Transcript: The Best Emotional Abuse Support Groups Online
Anne: I’m very excited to have my new friend. We’re going to call her Lacey, on today’s episode. We spent the weekend at a conference for abuse victims. I’ll cover what makes the best online emotional abuse support groups in just a minute. There are four things that you really need to watch out for. But before I want to welcome Lacey, welcome.
Lacey: Hello Anne, thanks for having me.
Initially just friends and maybe counselors and books, I would read them and listen to it, and it didn’t resonate with me. So as I dug further, I started learning words like betrayal trauma. You know, I didn’t even know that’s what I had. So I didn’t know those are the words I needed to search for. I just started stumbling across things, so I had to weed through a lot of things that were not helpful before I could get to the things that were.
Even with books they suggested, sometimes you’re just not in a place where you can sit down and read and comprehend a book. Betrayal Trauma Recovery for me was just something consistent, weekly. That I could turn on and listen to. What you were saying was resonating with me. So I took your advice. It was good for me when I found BTR because it’s a consistent voice of reason that I could turn to. Listening doesn’t take nearly as much brain power as sitting down and studying or something like that.
Lacey: You were just talking about the conference. I wouldn’t have known anything about that if it hadn’t been for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast because there are not a lot of resources in my area. Even the counselor I’m seeing isn’t trained in this area. She doesn’t know about resources like books and things that you suggest on BTR. And I just want to do my best to help other ladies find it quickly, more quickly than I did.
It’s great with the podcast, I can go back and re listen. Before I got on with you, I was listening to a few things. You know, I probably will not have my own podcast or website or anything like that. It’s difficult for me to talk about these things with people in person. I want to do my best to promote you in the best way possible to help other people.
Anne: I’m grateful for your support. You’ve listened to the podcast since the beginning, and one of the things you mentioned is that you wanted other women to know about Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it covers things emotional abuse victims need to know. And you were talking about how easy it is to help women find us. Just follow the podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts by actually clicking the follow button. Because the more subscribers or followers the podcast has, the more the algorithm shows this podcast to women when they’re searching for help.
Like you said, you were searching for things, but you didn’t know to type in betrayal trauma in to Google because you didn’t know what you were searching for, exactly.
Lacey: Right.
Anne: Then finally, when you found the word betrayal trauma, you found us, you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Improving Online Visibility
Anne: So as women search around, they search for words like infidelity, cheating, or addiction. Lots of women are searching for narcissism stuff, lying, “How do I help my marriage?” Or betrayal trauma in relationships.
It’s rare that a woman with marriage troubles goes immediately to Google and types in betrayal trauma. My goal is to help women get this information as soon as possible. Making sure they can find us online is important.
The first thing I ask people to do is actually click the follow button, and then to help even more rate the podcast on their podcasting service, or iTunes or Spotify. And that five stars means Google or iTunes starts paying attention to it. So podcasts with a lot of ratings, get more visibility. And that’s what we need.
If someone types in infidelity, for example, it’s so much better to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery if you’re searching infidelity. Than finding that a wife causes infidelity, not meeting her husband’s needs. Or a wife not being safe enough for her husband, or something like that.
You’ll see things evolving over time with BTR as I learn better ways to describe things. As all of us know, it’s an ever evolving process to describe what we’re feeling and what is happening to us. And so I try to update the website over time and all the materials over time when I have a better way to describe something.
Emotional Abuse Support groups online: Engaging with Betrayal Trauma Recovery on Social Media
Anne: Another way to help other women know about this amazing community is to comment on the btr.org website. Because the way search engines work, the more interaction a website gets, the higher ranks on a search engine. Same thing with Instagram and Facebook, the more comments on each post, the more interaction, the more people see it. That algorithm is like, Hey, this is interesting. And they show it to more people.
So if you’ve been grateful for this podcast and want to help get the word out. Going to our YouTube channel and commenting on all of our videos, commenting on our posts. We’re on Instagram at. At btr.org_. And on Facebook, commenting on our posts.
We have some wonderful supportive women who take five minutes a day while waiting for carpool. And they go through all of our posts on our social media platforms on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And in the comments, they just do an emoji, like a handclap or a 100. Or the celebration emoji. It can just be an emoji. You don’t even have to say anything. That helps the algorithm so much. So if you’ve been putting emojis on our social media posts or writing short comments on our website, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. .
That’s the cool part about this podcast. It’s by trauma survivors for trauma survivors. So we can make it whatever we want.
https://youtube.com/shorts/QgWLaB34xIE
Experiencing Support in Person
Anne: So tell me about your experience being around so many women, like having come from an isolated state of not talking to anyone you felt understood.
Lacey: In my town, I hadn’t found any groups that I felt comfortable going to just because they didn’t focus on my specific need. And then having such a hard time finding a counselor. I felt like they were listening, but maybe didn’t get it. And I have friends and family that know that I’m separated. And they know that I’m hurting but still, again, they don’t know the details or maybe how to listen with understanding.
Being around all these women, even if their situations weren’t the same, or if they hadn’t experienced the same thing, it just felt like they knew how to react appropriately and the right things to say. It felt so good to talk and not worry about, filtering what I was saying or trying to remember what I had already told them, or is this person safe or not?
Or when am I going to run into them at the grocery store? You know, or do they know my husband? All these things that are constantly going through your mind when you’re at home and trying to know how to talk to people. None of that was there. And I was able to just talk and share my story, and not feel judged. Sometimes you just want to talk and have somebody listen, and it was a great experience.
Emotional Abuse Support Groups Online: Gratitude and Community Support
Lacey: I just want to throw out there that I’m sure donating helps continue how y’all are already working on spreading the word. I don’t know, I just want to throw that out there. Because I think everybody should donate, and uh, I want to help you any way I can.
Anne: Betrayal trauma recovery was built by all of us. There’s no way I could have started it without the emotional or financial support of all the women listening, small and large. Betrayal trauma support groups are full of amazing women. And knowing that there was someone on the other side of the microphone listening to me, because when I would feel so dark and sad and just be speaking into a microphone in my basement.
And there’s no way I could have done it without you and without the coaches. So I’m very, very grateful that this is an organization by trauma survivors of trauma survivors. It’s a community that I’m a part of, proud of, and grateful for.
Signs Of An Abusive Therapist – Dee’s Story
Jan 25, 2022
Therapy not working like you hoped? Most people don’t know the signs of an abusive therapist. When Dee went to her therapist for anxiety, she expected to feel better. Instead, she was gaslit, groomed, devalued, and discarded.
Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Dee. She has two children. She’s a mostly stay at home mom, but sometimes she works as an art teacher to kids at her church. She’s taken up cycling as a form of exercise, and it’s been helpful for her to be outdoors. During this journey of healing, she also enjoys yoga and reading.
She has struggled with anxiety and depression since a young age. So she started therapy in 2018. And initially, she went to a mental health hospital for intensive outpatient therapy, because her anxiety had become so debilitating.
And there she met an abusive therapist and was his client for 10 months. She’s going to talk about her experience with this therapist a bit today. So many women who follow Betrayal Trauma Recovery or listen to the podcast have gone to therapy for help. But when they went to therapy, it worsened, and sometimes they didn’t recognize it for a long time. In Dee’s case, it was 10 months.
An Abusive Therapist May Seem Like A “Perfect Fit”
Anne: So let’s talk about your story. You go to this abusive therapist. Did you know that you were his first client in his private practice?
Dee: Yes, I did.
Anne: And what makes you think this is a good therapist for me?
Dee: When I was at the mental health hospital, we had a substitute therapist come in one day. It was a group therapy dynamic. And our regular therapist was out that day, and he came in as a substitute, and I had a side conversation with him during a break. I appreciated his response and felt like he knew where I was coming from. And so whenever we left that program, they want you to be set up with a therapist outside of there, so that you could continue your care.
He had mentioned to me that he was starting his own practice. And when our regular therapist came back, the next day I was talking to her about trying to find someone. And I consider going to a Christian counselor. Because I felt like that might be the right fit for me. She discouraged me from going that route.
She wasn’t sure if that would be the most helpful type of therapy for me. And I don’t remember her reasoning now, but I do remember saying to her, well, this other person that came in said he’s starting his own practice, and she said, yeah, I think he would be a good fit for you.
The Vulnerability Of Intensive Therapy
Dee: In that moment, I was still struggling in where I was, and it was hard to pick a person off a list I’d never seen, never talked to. And I trusted her opinion. I know that she was coming from a good place. And I don’t think she had any idea what I was stepping into. I just didn’t even feel equipped to make certain decisions at that point. And I trusted her opinion on that matter.
Anne: Well, especially, you’ve been in intensive outpatient therapy. So, you’re in a very vulnerable place at this time.
Dee: Yes, absolutely. I’ve dealt with anxiety, but it became, when I say debilitating, I mean, I was barely sleeping. I had stopped eating even the last few days before I finally got into their care. It was just to a breaking point, and I knew that and I needed help.
I don’t know where to go for help, and I hear of this place that is pretty close to me. I decided to do something, and that seemed like the most reasonable next step. And I trust that anybody at their facility was somebody I could rely on to be a safe place.
Anne: Yeah, because why would you think any differently? That makes sense.
It’s Not Your Fault If Your Therapist Has Abused You
Anne: In that first meeting, because your decision was basically based on that first meeting with him on the side conversation, and then also her recommendation, would you characterize that now looking back as grooming? When I say grooming, I wonder if the things he says to you are like narcissists. I can’t diagnose him, because I’ve never met him. I’m just talking from your perspective, but they’re good at reflecting back what people are saying.
So many women who are dating narcissists or meet them feel like, Oh, this is my soulmate, right? They understand me. So when I say grooming, I’m also asking about that side conversation where you feel, wow, he understands what I’m saying. Do you see that part as grooming?
Dee: Maybe not so much as grooming. I later question if I’m targeted for some reason. This is a difficult question to ask yourself, because then you ask yourself, what would make me an ideal target for someone? Did this therapist see something in me that he thought he wanted to exploit? And I don’t know the answer, but that’s something I definitely have asked myself.
Anne: Yeah, and that’s also a victim blaming type question, right? Because then you’re like, what was it about me that made an abusive therapist target me? And, and I don’t think that’s ever the case. I mean, just because you were in an outpatient clinic and just because you were vulnerable at the time doesn’t mean someone has the right to target you.
It’s still not your fault. A normal person wouldn’t exploit that. They would have empathy, right, and want to be helping you rather than
Dee: Exploiting you, right.
Have Self-Compassion If You Are A Victim Of An Abusive Therapist
Dee: I wanted to feel validated, because I know that many people you talk to are coming out of a marriage or maybe still in a marriage or relationship that’s abusive. But I didn’t have to keep going back.
I wasn’t forced to have him as my therapist, and it’s not to take away from anybody else’s situation, because I understand that many people feel guilt and shame. But for me, that’s such a big part of what I’ve struggled with. It seems like it would have been easy to leave if something didn’t feel right at one point, and instead of leaving at that first sign, I kept going.
And it’s hard not to feel like I played a part in it. For many reasons, but that being one of them, I wasn’t living with this person. I’m not married to this person, and I don’t have children with this person. I’m choosing to have them as my therapist, and go back week after week and pay them.
Anne: Listening to the stories on the podcast of other women who have had really difficult and traumatic experiences with an abusive therapist, has that been validating for you?
Dee: I think it’s hard when it isn’t a carbon copy of what I experienced. Because I tend to feel my situation is different. And that their situation is valid for its own reasons. Maybe mine isn’t, because I feel a lot of responsibility in what happened. So I tend to feel like other people are more valid in feeling traumatized in therapy.
I Didn’t Know What Gaslighting Was
Anne: Well, hopefully by the end of this podcast and by the end of this episode, you can feel the love of all the listeners. Letting you know that your trauma with this therapist who is abusive is just as valid, and that it is crazy traumatic to trust someone to help you, and have that turn into destruction, chaos, and pain.
So let’s actually talk about what happened. Maybe you want to define that first moment when you were like, something’s not right. Even if you weren’t able to verbalize it, or you weren’t able to like process what it was. When was the first time you recognize something is not right here?
Dee: So, this is one reason why it’s hard to recount what happens, because I feel like there were different aspects. Some of it was physical, or maybe my husband was gaslighting. And so these things overlap. And it’s hard to give you a concrete timeline of when each thing happened. But they happened interchangeably, so it all leaves you feeling so distorted.
https://youtube.com/shorts/pjEKsR_cvy8
When I left, I said, it seemed like I was in a tornado. And things swirled around me, and it felt like pure chaos. And I didn’t understand what was happening. All I knew is that I was in a lot of pain. I think the first time I can see it as part of a larger picture was at the end of a session. He, this abusive therapist, put his hand up and had me put my hand up to his. And he kind of wrapped his thumb around my hand and said something cheesy, like, oh, it’s a hand hug.
An Therapist Who is aBusive May Gaslight You: Pay Attention To Your Gut Feelings
Dee: I remember in my next session saying to him, I was surprised he made any kind of physical contact. And I don’t remember what his specific response was, but it was just sort of, oh no, it’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. And I thought, Oh, okay, I guess. My idea of what therapy is is very rigid, and I’ve never been to therapy before.
So, the only therapy experience was at the mental health facility, and I have never been to therapy otherwise. So I didn’t know what was okay and not okay, and what therapy looks like. I mean, there are many terms that I’ve learned since then. And if I had known them, maybe I would have left sooner, because I would have more of a definition for what was happening. But I didn’t even have those terms yet.
Anne: It’s not only that you don’t have the terms, I mean, all abuse victims, you don’t even have the context for it.
Dee: Yes.
Anne: You have this sense that something’s not right. But then when you tell the abuser, Hey, this feels weird to me. And you get gaslit and the abusive therapist says, Oh, no, this is fine. This is what happens, this is normal. This is what happens in marriage and therapy. Then you think well, okay, maybe it’s me.
Shame, Secrecy & Isolation
Anne: So you weren’t telling anyone else what was happening during these sessions?
Dee: No. There was a lot of shame that I felt, and I just think that compounds the secrecy of it all. You know, it makes you feel like you can’t talk about it because you’re ashamed of what happens. And that’s very isolating in feeling that, you can’t share with others what’s going on. That you’re confused about something. And in some ways, I feel like that’s part of why it continues, because I wasn’t talking to other people about it. Not until right before I left the his “care.”
Anne: So we’ve got physical crossing of boundaries. It sounds like during that session you were gaslit Were there more types of physical crossing of boundaries?
Dee: Pretty soon after the session, where the abusive therapist had touched my hand. I was emotional a lot in therapy. I think I cried just about every session. And I am upset and emotional about something we talk about. He got off his chair and came and sat next to me, and he put his hand on the back of my head as he talked to me. And I remember him stopping what he said and making a comment that my hair was soft.
I remember feeling really nervous about that. And I started babbling about something about my conditioner or something. It was just this awkward response, but it was just so out of the blue. And I remember he just kind of stopped me, and I thought, Oh, okay, just take a deep breath.
An Abusive Therapist May Attempt To Alter Your Perception Of Reality
Dee: So, you know, in a following session, when I brought up that that had happened, he said, I didn’t touch your hair. I said, it looked soft. And I said, no. You touched my hair, and you said it felt soft. No, I didn’t touch your hair. I just said it looked soft. And I had no question in my mind of what had happened.
I knew what had happened. I am confused why he would try to tell me it didn’t happen. And again, at the time, I didn’t know what gaslighting was. I just thought it was something bizarre that the therapist was doing. In the larger scope, now it makes more sense. But at the time, it was just weird.
Anne: Did you ever think because he was your therapist, maybe he had a reason?
Dee: I put a lot of trust into his discretion of what was okay and what wasn’t okay. I think in that situation, instead of drawing a boundary like I normally would have. I don’t sit alone with men. Having conversations about personal things, you know. I’ve been married now for 18 years, and I never felt like I would potentially violate some part of the sanctity of my marriage. And so I think being in therapy and sitting in that sort of bubble, it just felt disconnected from my actual life.
Can You Relate To Therapy Abuse?
Dee: It didn’t feel like here’s an abusive therapist crossing a boundary, and me being a married woman. And me needing to say, no, this isn’t okay. If that had happened outside of that room, I would have recognized that. And again, I wouldn’t have been in that situation. I wouldn’t feel it was appropriate to have these intimate conversations. But I mean, that is the dynamic of therapy, is to sit and talk about what, what you’re struggling with. And having these really personal conversations.
So I think it just kind of happened without it. It’s really striking me as something that shouldn’t be happening.
Anne: Well, I think our listeners can relate, like when the therapist doesn’t understand or they don’t validate you. It’s a therapist’s horror story and also clergy horror story on this podcast. In this context, all of our listeners can relate. Because that’s how they felt in their marriage. When they’re thinking, well this is my husband, this is why abuse, and especially emotional abuse is so hard to see.
So with another man I met on the street, if he screamed and yelled in my face. Or if he lies to me about something I knew was wrong. Then I’d be like that guy’s crazy or whatever. But when it’s your husband, or when it’s someone you trust. Or when it’s someone you’re supposed to have this safe, trusting relationship with. It’s confusing. You can’t wrap your head around what is actually happening in the moment now that you’re looking back. What should therapy look like?
Vulnerability When You Have An Abusive Therapist
Dee: I’ve been to therapists since then, and things that I don’t feel are confused. A therapist doesn’t hurt me. And I don’t feel like they’re ever lying to me or trying to make me feel bad. I feel supported. I don’t ever feel like they’re trying to cross any boundaries with me. And I always feel like there’s this extra sense of your safety.
And there was also this weird sort of issue for me with therapy. When I saw him, where I would feel really, really good in the mornings that I would go. Almost like I was on a high. It was just the sort of anticipation of going and being in this place and feeling good.
And then when I would leave, I would feel really, really down and almost unable to wait that week until I could go back. And I had no idea the chemicals in my brain were such a big factor. Because there’s this sort of intermittent reinforcement going on, which did happen. You know, you would get this surge of adrenaline and all these hormones that make you feel good in that situation.
An Abusive Therapist May Be Unpredictable
Dee: And then they’re taken away, you feel really, really low, and you want to get that back. And I didn’t realize I was going through that storm. I just knew that I wanted to be there because I wanted to feel good. And sometimes it did feel good. And sometimes it felt bad, and it shouldn’t be this back and forth of good and bad.
What am I going to get today? Am I going to get the nice therapist who’s validating and makes me feel good? Or am I going to get the one that makes me feel guilty? Like I’m a bad person. I was talking one day, and he came, and he sat next to me close enough that our arms were touching. But that was it, just sitting next to me.
And then, you know, a couple sessions might go by where there wasn’t any crossing of the physical boundary. And then. I remember he came over and wrapped his arms around me. He was sitting behind me, and he kind of laid back on the couch, because I would sit on this small little couch in his office. And he wrapped his arms around me and held me.
And I did feel an immense sense of comfort in that. At the same time, he’s telling me that this doesn’t have to happen. We don’t need to do these things in therapy. And okay, I’ll do it this one time, but, you know, this isn’t something you should need from me. And so I had a lot of guilt. I had no idea that he was an abusive therapist.
An Abusive Therapist May Exploit Your Need For Physical Affection
Dee: There’s a lot of shame in that. And again, maybe a few sessions go by, and one day I’m just sitting there talking. And unprovoked, he comes and sits on the other end of the couch. I just continue to sit where I’m sitting, and we’re kind of facing each other from opposite ends of this little couch, more like a love seat.
And after a few minutes of me not responding in any way. The he said, “You know, why don’t you come lay next to me?” And I did. In a following session, when I brought it up that had happened, he said he felt manipulated by me.
And when he said that, you know, when someone says it made their head spin, it literally made my mind spin in circles. Because I thought, how did I manipulate you?
I didn’t ask you to come sit next to me. I didn’t ask you to lay next to me. You asked me to do those things. And yet somehow he’s telling me that I manipulated him. The he made a comment that he cared more about me than his other clients. Maybe a little more, and then he took that back and said, well, no, I just said that to make you feel better. All of this should have been a clue that he was an abusive theraptist.
And I remember being extremely hurt, and I don’t use language. Usually I don’t cuss, but I remember when he said that to me, I told him you don’t lie to me. And that’s not the wording I used, but I remember I felt extremely hurt and angry. Then as we’re talking, he kind of settles things back down. And he’s back to saying, well okay, no, I care more about you.
I Wish I Had Walked Away
Dee: I’m just trying to invalidate myself, because I shouldn’t feel that way. So that’s why I said I care more, but I need to deny that to myself to keep myself in check. I’m on a roller coaster. I told him later on, How am I supposed to know what’s true and what’s not true when you tell me one thing and then the opposite? You’re telling me you feel manipulated?
It was so confusing. And I wish I had walked away at that point. I wish I had already walked away. But it’s hard to want to start over in therapy when you’ve laid all that groundwork. And had some sessions where you maybe talk about some specific things that are hurtful. I remember there were a few sessions that were hard to get through.
And I know that one, I felt an attachment to him. And two, I felt like I don’t want to start over. I don’t want to go to someone and have to do that all over again. I just want to go forward. And I kept telling myself that it would be okay. And it just kept getting worse.
Anne: So you’re manipulated in this vulnerable position with an abusive therapist. Did you ever wonder, am I having an emotional affair with my therapist?
Dee: Oh, absolutely. You know, I would come home and feel like I had this bad secret. Boundaries are crossed, and I feel shameful and guilty about that. I knew I was hurting, but I didn’t know how to get help for it. And emotionally isolated, like I wasn’t understood. I wasn’t able to communicate to my husband.
An Abusive Therapist May Give You His Or Her Personal Contact Information
Dee: I think it’s important to mention that early on, as a client, I had his personal number. That’s the number he uses as his business. It was his personal number and his business number. And I texted him a few times when I struggled and could reach out to him. And sometimes he would respond, and sometimes he wouldn’t.
He told me, he’d be okay with it either way. If I respond, lucky you. And if I don’t, then you have to accept that. I remember that was kind of the attitude of how that would go. And I remember early on, there were a couple of times where it was later at night and I was struggling with something and I would reach out and get a response.
A few times, we ended up talking back and forth for a while. And it became more conversational than therapeutic. After one of the times when that conversation had gone on for maybe even an hour, the he told me to delete the text. And hello, red flag, I wish I had known how inappropriate that was. And I did, I deleted it and it happened again within a couple of weeks. That happened again, and at the end, hey, Delete this text, and I did.
And there were comments made when I was in sessions. I remember him making a comment about his intimate life. Which is absolutely something that he should have never been talking to me about. He told me some personal things about his family. Very personal things about his family, his parents in particular. Again, things that were not relevant to my therapy and never should have been coming up in therapy.
An Abusive Therapist May Spend Extra Time With You
Dee: The therapist started letting my sessions go longer than the allotted time. They are supposed to be an hour or under an hour. And it became normal for my sessions to be at least an hour and a half, two hours was pretty typical. We had one session that was about four hours. That was the longest.
And I am only charged for an hour each time. And I remember telling him, I don’t have my phone out. I don’t know what time it is, so you tell me when our session is up. And I left that to him to tell me, Hey, okay, it’s time for us to end. Again, it became very normal for my sessions to go over an hour by quite a bit. And come to find out, because I have since read the code of ethics for therapists, that’s unethical. I didn’t realize that at the time, how damaging that actually is as a client.
And also again, confusing. Because some days if the therapist would come in and say, Hey, I only have an hour and a half today. He would say it kind of in a cold way. And I remember. In those times, it seemed almost like a rejection, sort of this cold comment he was making at me of, I only have this much time for you today. And I was just sort of at his whim.
The Danger Of Trusting An Abusive Therapist
Dee: He told me multiple times that he was an empath and I was not. He said he’s an empathetic person and I am not. For a long time, I defined myself as an empathetic person. Sometimes to my own detriment. I feel tender hearted. And that’s one of my core strengths, I think. And to sit there and have a professional tell you, you’re not an empath, but I am. It stripped me of part of my identity, of something valuable that I see in myself.
But again, I see this abusive therapist as this kind of authority. In a way, I thought maybe he was right. I put a lot of value and trust into what he told me. And the therapist also would make comments about you, I’m the expert. See, my diploma’s up there on the wall. You don’t know what you’re talking about, kind of comments.
Anne: We get that a lot. The therapist says I’m a therapist, so this isn’t abuse. Either I’m not abusing you or your husband’s not abusing you. This is just a communication issue or something. It’s a story we hear a lot around here. I’m a therapist, so I know better kind of idea. But in this case, he uses it to keep you confused.
Dee: I think it just reaffirmed that he knew more than me. There was this air of, I’m educated on this and you’re not. And that played into other things too.
An Abusive Therapist Will Take Advantage Of Their Position Of Authority
Dee: I remember us talking about my job and education. I have a bachelor’s degree. And I was talking about my teaching job, teaching art.
And he said, well, as he’s making a note in his little journal, where he kept notes of my sessions. The he said, well, I’m going to write down art facilitator because you don’t have a teaching degree. It seems so unnecessary and hurtful, but I feel like there were many times where there were these little cut downs.
Again with the comment of he’s the expert, and I guess it was devaluing me. And maybe trying to keep me in a place of feeling like the abusive therapist was the all knowing authority. Who am I to question the expert?
Anne: But also seemingly not just about therapy or therapeutic things. But giving you the impression that he’s also the authority and knows more about your life. Knows more about what you need or how you feel. Do you know what I’m saying? Is that sort of the feeling of it?
Dee: Yes, yes. There’s even something specific, and this is pretty personal. I remember talking to him about a specific encounter I had in college that was pretty traumatizing. And here I was 19 years later, sitting in his office, crying, like barely able to tell the story. Because it was extremely upsetting and traumatizing to me. And I was talking to him about that experience. In that moment, the abusive therapist told me that my response was mean.
Why Was He Telling Me That?
Dee: He told me once that he didn’t know if he’d ever had intercourse with the lights off. Like, what? You turn the light off when you have it? And I said, well, yeah, usually. And the therapist said, “I don’t know if I’ve ever had it with the light off.” And why was he telling me that?
Anne: So your abusive therapist was a addict. That sounds pretty typical of a addict. You had a serious abuser slash user on your hands there. It’s just hard to picture him in that way. That’s how the wives feel about their husbands. They’re like, what? No, he wouldn’t use explicit material. And I’m like, well, all the things you just told me are classic, classic markers.
I think one thing that’s really hard for wives of abusive men to wrap their heads around. Is that the woman their husband has an emotional affair with, for example. Or the women they’re having a flat out affair with are also victims in many ways.
Because here you are, abused and manipulated. Not knowing where to go for help, continually asking your abuser, Wait, is this right? This doesn’t feel right, I’m confused. And him gaslighting you and telling you it’s fine. And this is what’s good for you. I think it’s helpful for all listeners to understand that we need to be gentle and empathetic with all victims of abuse. Whatever form they come in.
And then in this instance, I’m bringing that up because he could have been married. And still participated in this type of abusive behavior.
Dee: Definitely. I feel like more often than not, the stories I have heard, usually they are. And the therapist did bring it up when I confronted him.
An Abusive Therapist Will Cause You To Feel Blame
Dee: And I would like to tell you about that confrontation. I remember the therapist was a little emotional and upset when he said, Imagine if I’m married. And I thought, well, I am married. And for him to say like, oh, imagine if I have a wife and am married.
Anne: Well, imagine if I am married, because I am. Yeah, the lack of empathy and understanding is astounding. So I think that’s why it’s so traumatic for you. It validates you and validates other women who have been coerced into a physical relationship that was inappropriate. That they didn’t feel comfortable with, that they didn’t necessarily consent to, but they’re finding themselves in it. It’s almost like a form of rape. This is why finding the right betrayal trauma support is so important.
Dee: It’s hard not to feel a lot of blame on myself.
Recognizing Unethical Therapy Practices
Dee: I want to tell you too about an organization I connected with that should be mentioned on the podcast. You know, they told me it was never my job to make sure the boundaries weren’t crossed. And that’s been a hard thing to accept.
That’s really hard to accept, because I take a lot of responsibility, and I continue to. But one thing that an abusive therapist might do is schedule clients at the end of the day, so that you’re the last one there. Maybe the office is empty, and also going over your allotted time. If you’re scheduled for 50 minutes or an hour, you should only be there for 50 minutes or an hour.
But I also knew that because I was one of his first clients, the therapist had a lot of extra open time. And I guess I felt privileged that I was allocated extra time and not charged for it. And not realizing that isn’t appropriate. Another thing is physical contact. That one’s kind of, you know, the lines are a little blurry when it comes to handshakes and maybe even hugs.
Because I’ve even had a therapist since then who likes to hug me at the end of our session, and I was comfortable with it. She is a sweet woman, and I always feel like her intentions are pure. But you know, even that’s a gray area, as far as if that’s appropriate or not. But particularly if it starts out as one thing, and you start seeing it progress over time.
An Abusive Therapist Will Groom Victims Slowly Over Time
Dee: So for me, that was initially just touching my hand. That progressed to the abusive therapist sitting next to me, him touching my hair at one point, him sitting close enough for our arms to touch, and then at some point him putting his arms around me.
And him asking me to lay down next to him, and unfortunately on a few occasions even going beyond that in the physical sense. Looking back, I can see how they were these tiny incremental steps that didn’t scream out at me. And obviously, these things were not okay when they’re happening little by little over months at a time.
It just, I don’t know, I think it’s easy to excuse each step forward that it goes. It’s not like I walked in and at my first appointment he was sitting next to me. That didn’t happen right away. There were steps that even led up to that.
Anne: What were you saying to yourself at the time while the abusive therapist groomed you? It’s slowly escalating over time, but not escalating, so it was obvious.
Dee: I think there was a big part of me that I had a certain privilege that other people didn’t have.
Anne: When do you start to notice, hey, you know what, something’s got to change here. This is not the right therapist for me.
Dee: I think it was way earlier than when I actually left, honestly. It’s hard, because to some degree, these things felt good to me. To have attention or to have that kind of comfort.
The Trauma Bond Explained
Dee: But there was also tremendous guilt and shame. Because I recognize that these things shouldn’t be happening. But it took a while to get to a place where I felt I could leave. Because I remember feeling emotionally attached to the therapist, and now I know that I have a trauma bond to the abusive therapist.
I’m still dealing with that. It’s weird to feel the need for somebody in your life who you know has hurt you tremendously. But yet, you still wish they could be there for you when they’re the one who hurts you.
Anne: Can we talk about trauma bond for just a second and let me, if you don’t mind, give a little rant about trauma bonding? I believe in trauma bond when it comes to like two people who have been through a tornado together, for example. So they’re both maybe about to be killed by a tornado, and both hide in a basement together. The tornado goes by and they survive together. And forevermore, they have this bond they created through their shared trauma experience.
In my mind, that’s what trauma bond means. Two people who have both experienced a traumatic event together. And supported each other and relied on each other through that traumatic event. What you’re talking about is sometimes called Stockholm Syndrome. Which I also don’t think we should use that term. Because there’s some level of victim blaming. That somehow in the process of being abused, she decided she needed her abuser.
What I would prefer to call it, and if you want to continue calling it a trauma bond, be my guest if that’s helpful to you. I’m not trying to take away a helpful term, because some people have found the term trauma bond helpful.
Manufactured Relational Tether
Anne: I prefer the term I made up. That is what I call a manufactured relational tether. And the reason why I prefer to call it is because this person has created a stressful problem.
You’re not getting approval, appreciation, love, attention or whatever they create on purpose to reel you back in. It’s a manipulation tactic. So when you feel the stress of that manipulated emotion of hey, I’m not paying attention to you. Or I don’t care about you. Sort of this detachment pushes away when you expect some type of attachment or bond. They do it on purpose, and then they relieve it on purpose.
So then, you are totally relieved when you’re reattached to that person. When they create a problem that only they could solve, you feel relief, right? So it’s sort of this manufactured relational tether, and the way I like to think of it is more like a tether ball. So you are attached to this abuser on this string, and the abusive therapist hits the ball, and you’re free.
Flying through space, and you feel insecure, worried and concerned. And then the ball wraps around the pole, and for a brief moment it’s like, okay, relief. I feel good. This makes sense. I like how this feels, and then it starts to unravel. And it feels uncomfortable.
An Abusive Therapist Will Cause You To Feel Shame And Guilt
Anne: And then the he hits it again. And to take yourself out of that manufactured relational tether, it’s going to be painful. To cut that cord. And hurl violently through space unattached. So I don’t see it as a trauma bond so much that they do it on purpose to manipulate your emotions, to make you feel attached to the him. But it’s all manipulation. You’ll have to tell me, after you think about it for a while.
I don’t think you bond to the person. I think that what happens is you’re so much manipulated, that it feels uncomfortable to be floating in space.
Dee: What you’re saying makes a lot of sense, and I am all for any language that helps release me of some of that shame and guilt that I carry around. Because that, as much as anything, has been part of my healing, and it’s been a difficult part for me.
Anne: What happened was you were slapped around a lot. I mean, thinking of yourself as a tetherball. The only thing that gave you any semblance of security is that rope attached to you. And right now, I think what you’re feeling rather than the bond is just the wound from having to rip that rope out.
Seeking Justice & Accountability
Dee: At the end, I reached out to a friend who I knew would give it to me straight. I said to her, These are the things happening. And I don’t know what to do. She just said so clearly, “You have to stop seeing him”. And I remember telling her, but I don’t want to, like I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know how to leave. I don’t, I just don’t know how to do that. And I had one more session after that.
And I had her words running around in my head and could see it all. More from her eyes than my own. And that is what allows me to leave, and that was my last time to go. I text the therapist the next day and say I’m looking for a new therapist, and he said, okay, I’ve made the final charge to your credit card. Thanks for letting me know.
I confronted him a few weeks later, and I showed up at his office without an appointment, and I just said, Can we talk? I recorded our conversation and got the therapist admitting to basically all of it. Then sent that recording with my complaint to the board. I went back one other time for the same reason, just being confused and saying I want you to clarify, like are you a villain?
Are you just a weak person? Are you unethical? I don’t know who you are. I’m so confused, I don’t you know. I kept trying to make sense of it and wanting him to explain to me who he is, which I now realize is never going to happen.
The Reality Of Reporting Abuse
Anne: Yeah. Abusers will never say, I’m an abuser. I groomed you. And then I slowly abused you over time until it got worse, worse, and worse until you noticed. What is the status of your complaint right now?
Dee: So it’s been a little over a year. And I have requested an open records request, which is what I’ve sent in. Because right now the board has not contacted me at all.
So all that I had been told in the past when I called to check on the status was that my complaint is in the queue. And they said that means it hasn’t been assigned to an investigator yet.
Anne: So this abusive therapist is still practicing is the gist of the answer.
Dee: Yes. As far as I know. I’ve checked on his license a few times since then. Just in case, for whatever reason, I wasn’t contacted, and maybe something had happened. And everything looked in order online until this last time I checked. And his license is listed as delinquent.
But I talked to a lawyer and she said, really? That probably just means he didn’t pay to renew. And I guess it’s sort of this between stages of whether he will renew it or not. But the therapist still could practice even with a delinquent license.
We Need To Be Really Gentle & Empathetic With Victims Of Abuse
Anne: We also know of people who have had their license revoked and they’ve just decided to start coaching. So they just decided to start calling themselves a coach.
Dee: And what’s frustrating is that when all this is waiting to be investigated, there’s no way for anybody to know. So this whole time, if anybody did verify the therapist was licensed, they wouldn’t see there were any complaints filed. And until he let it go delinquent.
Anne: I make sure everyone is who and what they’re supposed to be here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
We don’t want anyone who has had any type of disciplinary action or complaints . But even so a lot of people will check and say, okay, well, they don’t have any complaints, so this must be a good therapist. But we hear horror stories all the time about therapists with active licenses who tell women, “Oh, you just need to have more intimacy with your husband”. Or, oh, you need better communication or whatever it is regarding their husband’s abuse toward them.
So the therapist doesn’t necessarily abuse them, but what the therapist doesn’t do is help them identify the abuse they are experiencing. And that is also a super traumatic experience, where you go in for help for abuse, and then you’re blamed for the abuse.
So in your case, the abusive therapist directly abuses you in the sessions. I’ve talked to you twice. And this is still, rightfully so, close to the surface for you, and that makes total sense.
The Emotional Toll of Abuse By An Abusive Therapist
Anne: What are the next steps for you in this journey?
Dee: I definitely feel like waiting to be contacted by the board has been. I don’t know that it’s holding me back so much, as it’s just this big question mark of where that’s going to go.
And I’ve even tried to prepare myself to accept whatever happens with that, because I can only tell them my side. And hope that whatever they decide is the right thing, and prevents anybody else from being abused. They’re looking into some things to see if we can even go forward. Part of me wants to get through to him the damage the abusive therapist did. And so far, I feel like he’s completely gotten away with it. It’s hard, because I feel powerless.
And so in some ways, this feels like I have a little power to go to the abusive therapist and say, you know, this has been a very traumatic experience. And I just want to get that through to him.
Anne: This is the perennial question for victims of abuse, because so many women are in this waiting stage. Where they’re waiting for mediation or divorce. Or they’re waiting to see if he’s going to file for divorce, or they’re separated, and they’re waiting to see how they feel.
They’re waiting for him to get it. They’re waiting for someone to help them understand. The damage he caused. This is a typical, common place to be. This waiting place of will he get it? Will he understand?
Grieving & Bargaining
Anne: When you think about the grieving process, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. I wonder if we’re trying to get him to get it. Is part of that bargaining stage? Where you’re trying to figure out a way to have the abusive therapist know how bad this is. Regardless of what happens in court, with custody, or in any situation, they never get that.
And that’s the thing we want most, and so that’s the thing that’s so painful. And when you tell a victim that’s not going to happen, he’s not going to say that. Then it’s like, where do you go from there?
Because that’s the thing that you are waiting for. And so I think knowing that this is a stage that all victims go through and that it’s very rare that a victim ever gets justice. Hopefully you will, by the way, hopefully there’ll be some type of justice.
And I totally believe in reporting, and I believe in telling people your story, and even telling people around you. This is the name of this abusive therapist. Don’t go to this guy. You know, you can post it from wherever you want. But considering. How am I going to get through this if he continues to practice, not be held accountable, to not acknowledge anything that happened?
An Abusive Therapist Will Not Take Responsibility
Anne: That is the question on every victim’s mind, and that I don’t have the answer, and I don’t think any other victim has the answer. All I can say is that in my own experience, that time has healed that part of me. So I’m not so much in that stage anymore, which I’m grateful for. But I remember it well. And then sometimes I am in that stage. Sometimes I go back and think, when is he going to get it?
Dee: I think I recognize, even when I hope for those things, that there’s a good chance that those things won’t happen. Whether it’s maybe his license has been revoked, or having some clarity where he understands what happened and what damage was done.
There’s definitely a big part of me that realizes that’s unlikely to happen. I haven’t yet let go of that, but there are other things.
Finding Creative Outlets For Healing
Dee: Sometimes I just need to sit down and do something creative, like watercolor, and I find that healing. I write poetry, and I’ve even wondered if I could publish a book someday. You know, these are things I think about. I don’t know if they’ll happen, but trying to find a way to make something positive out of it is where my head’s been lately.
And doing this as well, being able to talk about it, I think is one more step in moving that direction. You know, feeling like if I can share what happened to me and maybe help somebody else avoid being in this situation, there’s some comfort in that and a sense of healing that can come from that.
Anne: Let’s talk about post traumatic growth for a minute. Not that we would wish this experience on anyone, and not that you went through this because you needed to grow. And not because of any of those things. Having been through it and now being a year out, can you see any part of you that has changed for the better?
Dee: Being able to speak up for myself, for example, I’ve seen a few therapists since then. And with one in particular, just having the courage to come to her and say, I needed to know how she viewed certain things. To make sure she was a good fit for me. And not ending up in a situation where I felt like therapy wasn’t helping or maybe doing more harm.
Post-Traumatic Growth
Dee: Because especially after going through this and going to therapy for this. It was important to me that I could see somebody who recognized it as abuse and didn’t cause more trauma. By blaming me and helping me recognize the abuse and all the ways that that happened.
I definitely think that’s something I didn’t have before, as well as being a little firmer in knowing who I am. Because when I saw him, there were times when he would tell me that I’m not an empathetic person, but he is. And I’ve always recognized that I was an empathetic person like that.
I feel like that’s definitely part of who I am, but I started to doubt that when he kept telling me that that wasn’t the case. And now, of course, I completely disagree with his characterization of me. I think I’m still definitely in the process of getting to a place where I can clearly see where I’m stronger and in a better place. A place where it’s still a work in progress. I think I’ve just felt really wounded. I don’t want to always feel that way.
Advice For Therapy Seekers
Anne: Is there any advice after this horrific experience of being abused by a therapist for almost a year, what advice would you give to other women who are going to therapy or trying to get help?
Dee: Being educated on what their ethical standards are. I feel like it would be great if anybody before they started therapy knew about those things. I was able to print off all the ethical standards in Texas for therapists. And unfortunately, I read them after my experience. I feel like if I had been educated in that, maybe I would have recognized things much earlier on that were unethical.
I can’t say how I would have handled it. But I’d like to think that if I recognized those things earlier, it may have helped me avoid being in the position I ended up in. So I think just recognizing what’s okay and what’s not okay in therapy.
You know, one thing he did was talk about himself, talk about his personal life, and go into details about his family. And even to the point of him telling me that he thought maybe his mom had had an affair. Because he thought his youngest brothers didn’t look like him. That they only looked like his mom, and not like him and his dad. And, you know, obviously now I realize that that was way over the line. On what kind of information should have been given about his personal life.
If you’re in therapy and there’s any phone conversations or texting outside of therapy, the only topics that should be talked about are appointment times. There shouldn’t be conversational type texting going on or phone conversations that are not related to therapy going on. Having those boundaries protects the client.
It Is The Therapist’s Responsibility To Be Ethical
Dee: Therapy shouldn’t have confused me. And my therapist, you know, walking into his office was inconsistent in how he would behave towards me. Sometimes he could be really cold and distant and have a curt tone with me. And I felt like he didn’t like me, or he was angry with me. And having him tell me that I manipulated him was a pretty extreme example.
But just even something as small as sharing an article with him. That I felt relevant to my situation. And when I asked him in the session if he had read it, he was rude to me about it. Being able to look back on that now, I see how unprofessional he was sometimes with me. And just that inconsistency of not knowing what I was walking into, not knowing which version of him I was going to have that day.
Anne: A lot of us see this with our exes where they’re inconsistently giving our children approval.
So because our children are safe with us, they care more about what their father thinks, because he’s intermittently kind to them, or he’s intermittently involved in their lives. And so then when they show up, it’s like, Oh, he showed up. And they’re so excited. Whereas when the consistent mom shows up and she’s always there, they’re not as excited because they just expect it.
The Harm Of Victim Blaming
Dee: My therapist who deals with psychological abuse was helpful in pointing that out to me and even talking about the brain chemistry involved. Like you were saying about victim blaming and the trauma bond. That fits into that, because I didn’t understand why I felt the way I felt. Until she was able to explain to me about the hormones and the ways that your body reacts to these things.
Anne: Yeah, it’s some type of manufactured tether that you experience due to his abuse. One of the things we talk about frequently here, which I want to remind people, is that it’s unethical to do couple therapy with your abuser. So you should not be going to couple therapy with someone who’s exhibiting abusive behaviors. That is unethical.
It’s also unethical when you are a victim of abuse for your therapist to blame you in any way, shape, or form for the abuse. And that happens frequently. When women try to get help from perhaps a addiction recovery specialist, who is like, Okay, well your husband’s part is this and then your part is this.
You need to communicate better, you need to not shame him, you need to do this, this, and this. To blame a victim for her own abuse is not ethical. The ethical thing to do is help the victim get to safety, whatever that means and whatever that looks like. So I just want to remind people when we’re talking about therapy and ethical ways of doing therapy, that explicit material is an abuse issue. And so anyone looking at it from a different lens, I believe, is looking at it from an unethical lens.
An Abusive Therapist May Use Explicit Material
Anne: And that is where we hear all the horror stories of women returning and saying he told me I needed to have more sex. Or that I needed to be kind, or that I needed to be patient. Okay, so Dee and I have talked privately. And many details she gave me, the way he talked to her, the things he said, indicated to me that this man was a addict.
So some of the things he said made me think this guy is a addict and probably a predator, meaning he thinks having a physical experience with multiple women is just a form of entertainment. Why don’t you talk about that for a little bit?
Dee: I remember him talking about how, I don’t remember if he was speaking as just men in general, or himself specifically. But I remember him saying that intercourse didn’t have to be anything emotional. It could be purely a physical thing to enjoy. And that even in his own personal life, he had discussed that with one particular woman. But then after they engaged in it, she said things that made him believe she was getting emotionally involved, and he was surprised by that.
He said, well, we just had that talk. And so what you’re saying about how he viewed intercourse, I definitely feel like there were things he talked about that show evidence of that.
Anne: I would venture to say that someone who thinks intercourse is entertainment will hurt people.
An Abusive Therapist Is Unsafe
Dee: I do remember thinking it was strange that he would make these comments, but I think it just so often that, you know, they would happen here and there and not in every session. It was easier to just sort of brush them off if once every few weeks something like that was said.
Whereas if it had been consistent each time or numerous times in a session. Maybe that would have, you know, the alarm bells would have been screaming a little louder. But it was easy to sort of brush it off.
Anne: I’m not sure if the therapists who tell victims hey, well, what are you doing, could you be more sexual? Or you’re probably not safe enough for him to tell the truth. Who knows if they are users, but the thing we know is they don’t understand abuse.
So you brought up knowing the ethical parameters and boundaries that you should have with your therapist. What is normal or not in a therapy session, and then also being educated about abuse. About this world of addiction that many people call an addiction, which really is just abusive behavior. What that looks like and sounds like is assault.
Because part of what you’ve described to me sounds like verbal assault, where he’s talking about these sexual things in really detailed ways. In ways that make you feel very uncomfortable. At the very least, I guess it would be harassment from your therapist is probably the correct definition.
Deciding Whether Or Not To See A Therapist
Dee: I was really unfamiliar with abuse just in general. And so, all of this has been a huge learning experience for me. Unfortunately, having to learn it the hard way. I’m sure that healing should be my focus, but part of that process of healing feels like needing to take action.
I just want to find meaningful ways to do that. I think finding some purpose and positive things to come out of this is really important to me.
Anne: Hopefully this experience will be a positive one, sharing your story. And helping women know that the answer that everyone gives. When you’ve got a problem or you seem distressed that clergy, friends and family, will be, Have you seen a therapist?
Therapy can be helpful. But it can also be harmful. So many times, a victim’s right and true reactions to trauma, which are sadness and depression. With an inability to concentrate, which is a hard time reading or making decisions.
The answer could be therapy, but it could just be a hug from a friend who tells you, Hey, I love you. How you’re acting is completely normal. There is nothing wrong with you. And so this question of therapy is one that I want victims to consider. To know, do you just need support and validation for acting in appropriate ways in a crazy situation?
Or is there something “wrong” with you that you need therapy for? I would say in so many cases, there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re amazing, brave, beautiful and strong. You may need support. The easiest, safest place to go for help is obviously Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, and you can see the session schedule at BTR.ORG.
A Support Person Helps You Get To Safety
Anne: You may need individual coaching to help you see what next steps to take, but is there something wrong with you deep down that you need therapy for? I don’t see it. I see a bunch of amazing, strong, brave women who are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances. In your case, you are struggling with anxiety and depression that required therapy. You wanted to go to therapy and get help. And in your vulnerable state, you were abused in that situation.
So considering what your actual problem is important. I don’t think just this blanket, oh, go to therapy, is the answer for everyone. And also, take stock of whether the therapy is actually helping you. If it’s actually helping you get to safety, if it’s actually helping you feel more peace.
And actually helping you get a handle on your anxiety, or whatever it’s you’re going through, great. But know that so many women who come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery have been deeply injured from therapy, including Dee. So that’s just a thought that I’d like to leave you with.
Dee: I know that going to therapy after that experience has helped me. But I would say that finding a community is just as helpful, of people who have been through similar situations. And even just sharing that we are feeling the same things. That has been, every bit as helpful as therapy has been, if not more.
Finding Community Through The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast
Dee: There’s a lot of overlap in recognizing the patterns of abuse, just feeling validated in my experience and feelings, and seeing other women. And the strength they have, and they might be further along in their process than I am, and just being able to recognize. That in time, I’ll be there too. It’s just not something that I can rush myself through. And try to give myself grace to go through the place I’m at now to get to that place later on.
Anne: You can’t go around, over or under it. You just have to go through it. And that’s the part that stinks. And other people want you to go over it. They want you to just get over it! They say that often, right? And it’s like, well, I can’t get over it. I have to go through it. But thanks for nothing, pal.
Dee: Well intentioned comments of that nature, I’ve definitely heard. And the nice thing, like I said, about having a community experiencing it now or has experienced it in the past is they get that. That’s not necessarily helpful. Maybe just saying, you know what, I completely understand how you’re feeling, and I’ve been there too. And you know, be kind to yourself.
Anne: And we’re here for you through that process. Thank you so much, Dee, for sharing your story and your courage.
Traumatic Bra Shopping Experience? You’re Not Alone
Jan 18, 2022
Have you had a traumatic bra shopping experience? You’re not alone. Women who have just discovered their husband’s pornography use and/or infidelity often feel traumatized by the idea of shopping for a bra.
When Anne Blythe, Host of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast reached out for help, Courtney from I Support The Girls nonprofit came to her aid.
Anne: I had the most amazing experience last week. I went to a bra fitting with Courtney and she changed my life. I’ve actually been wearing a bra, which I haven’t been doing in years ’cause I think I finally got a bra that fits. We’re gonna talk about self-care today and before we talk about it, I want to acknowledge that during my trauma years, wearing a bra was very difficult for a lot of reasons because I was so overwhelmed with everything. For some reason it expressed itself like I didn’t wanna wear a bra, I refuse to wear a bra.
It stressed me out going shopping for a bra. I am now at this stage where I am working on self-care. I know that some of you are not at that stage yet and I have been at that, I don’t know what stage to call it, where you’re in your sweatpants watching Netflix, eating popcorn.
And if you’re in that stage, stay there for as long as you need to. And don’t feel guilty about this episode ’cause I have been there myself. But since I am in this new stage of self care after emotional abuse and moving forward. I wanted to connect with Courtney and get a bra fitting and really start progressing my healing in starting to take care of myself. So welcome Courtney.
Courtney: Thanks. Thank you for having me on.
Bra Fittings by Court
Anne: Courtney runs bra fittings by court, an amazing service that she does to help women who are stressed out or need help with choosing bras. Tell me how you discovered that you have such an amazing talent for fitting women.
Courtney: So when I was in college, I got a job at Nordstrom in the lingerie department. Little did I know that that job would literally change my life. I quickly found that fitting bras is more than selling brass. It’s a lot more complicated than that. There’s a lot emotion involved in it. It’s kind of a intimate process. You’re seeing women in their most vulnerable state their shirt off. I found that I was really good at helping women feel comfortable. Most women were never taught how bras should fit and that 99% of women are wearing the wrong size bra.
And so I found that I was educating these women on how to dress their bodies and how to take care of their BOMs. I felt like I was giving back to the world. I felt like I was making a small difference in the world by helping women feel more confident and beautiful. This is my way to make a small difference in the world.
Anne: I think you’re making a large difference. Like for me it made a huge difference. I had such a good time. We did have a good time.
A healing experience in many ways
Anne: Getting undressed in front of you and having you put a bra on me was so healing in so many ways. So you now have a bra shop in your home called Bosom Friends. Yes, it’s a beautiful shop. Just being in there made me happy. The colors, there’s this big sign on the wall that says you’re like really pretty <laugh>. I thought, thank you. I really love this. How does helping women with their bra problems relate to self-care?
Courtney: Most women are busy. They don’t have a lot of time. And so a lot of women hate going bra shopping, which I completely understand because a lot of places, places like Walmart, target, Kohl’s, those places don’t have a large range of sizes. So that’s why it’s harder for women. It’s really stressful.
And if you’re already burdened emotionally going through trauma, that’s the last thing you wanna worry about is having to do research because you’re not guaranteed to get somebody to help you that knows what they’re doing. I recommend this some other places for people to go get fitted and they went and like that was an awful experience. And the reason why is because I feel like a lot of these places, those high turnover and there’s just not the experience that you need in a fitter that can really help people and understand how different styles of bras are gonna fit different women. Bra shopping is overwhelming because there’s so many different components to it.
Self-care and a bra-fitting
Anne: Well, I felt like I was being like, thank you, pampered by you. Like I’ve never felt like that when I went bra shopping. And the size that you fitted me in is completely different than any other size I’ve ever thought about. Like I didn’t think that was my size.
Courtney: Do you want to tell them what size you were in and then what size you are now?
Anne: Yeah, I don’t know what size I was in. So you were at 30. What size was I in? Okay, so let, let’s just talk about my bra issues my whole life. So I’ve always considered myself very small chested, which I liked. I’ve never felt like I wanted to be any bigger or anything, but I don’t fill the cup, right?
And my straps always fall off. And just the thought of a bra just stressed me out. I, I have cursed the man who invented corsets, you know, way back in the day like why? Why have you done this to us? Anyway, the bra that Courtney fitted me with, and I don’t even wanna say it ’cause I don’t wanna make anyone feel bad, but I feel like it’s the perfect size. Like if you asked what is the most beautiful, perfect size you would be this.
And that’s the one I’m wearing. It was a 32 double D like that is like amazing. Like who? Who has that perfect size? And now I’m like, oh, I wrote in my gratitude journal today. I am grateful that I have the perfect boob.
Courtney: I mean I was telling you, that I wish I was your size because like the perfect size really, but that’s just me <laugh>.
We ARE EnOUGH
Anne: So I’m here to tell you that here’s a woman who you’ve been listening to for months, maybe over a year who was abused and whose husband refused to tell her that she was beautiful. Literally I was like, I want you to tell me I’m beautiful.
And he said, no like just awful things that were done to me and I have the perfect boobs. So don’t think that if you had the perfect size whatever, or if you looked a certain way that the abuse would stop or that your husband would stop looking at porn. That is not true. It’s true. Everyone should love where they’re at. Well, and also to accept ourselves where we are and to know that we’re enough.
But like having this experience and going from being emotionally abused and having trauma for seven years to the point where I wasn’t wearing bras where I wasn’t putting makeup on, hardly ever where I just kind of slumped around with my shoulders really slumped forward because I wasn’t wearing a bra even when I went to the store or even when I went outta the house.
The messages I always got were, you are too much.
So I didn’t really wanna be indecent so I slumped forward so I wasn’t scaring everyone with my braless boobs to being like, oh my word. Like I am wearing a bra and it is this perfect size for me and I am feeling so, I don’t know, empowered almost is so different for me after seven years, well almost nine years, I don’t know.
I always say my new years wrong depending on when I was in the relationship and then after the relationship, but slumping around feeling like I wanted to take up less space. A lot of women who are abused, they get messages like, you are not enough. And the messages I always got were, you are too much. And so I always just wanted to make, try and make myself smaller.
Courtney: Like that’s why you were slumping over to hide what you, you know, to be invisible. You didn’t wanna cause attention or anything.
Prioritizing YOU
Anne: Yeah, totally. And so this place where I can hold my shoulders back and hold my head up high and know that I’m not like indecent because I actually have a bra on so I’m not scaring anybody and it fit was just so cool. I’m really excited to be at this point in my healing process.
Now for our listeners, wherever you are in your healing process, please don’t let this podcast turn you off to the podcast because I myself was in this place of, I don’t really wanna talk about the way I look, I don’t wanna talk about the way I eat, I don’t wanna talk about exercise, I don’t wanna talk about anything right now. Like the only thing I can do right now is survive and so many women are in that stage.
Why Are Bras Important?
So when you want to and when you feel like coming out of that, and it may take years, it took me years, then a bra fitting might be a really cool celebration activity for you to like throw off the old and bring in the new. Courtney, why is the bra the most important thing women wear?
Courtney: It does a really hard job. It holds up your bosoms all day long. That’s why they’re so important because you’ll like more put together, your clothes will look better, you can feel more confident and comfortable doing the things you wanna do. I have a lot of women who come into my shop that want to be active. They want to exercise, they wanna work on their fitness and their health, but they don’t feel comfortable doing so because their breast size makes it so that they feel really comfortable exercising.
They feel like their boobs are floppy in the air or you know they’re in the way. And so getting a sports bra that fits in that can make it so that they can feel comfortable exercising is life changing. It really can change women’s lives. And that’s why my slogan on my website is, I am changing lives when I’m bra fitting at a time because it gives people the courage, the freedom, and the confidence to do what they wanna do in their life.
When you compare yourself to pornography, you’re always gonna lose
Anne: I think our audience probably has, depending on the woman, depending on the situation, has a lot of issues with bras too because their husbands are sex addicts and pornography users, right? So when you compare yourself to porn, you’re always gonna lose. Betrayal causes body image issues. There’s no way to win.
Porn is staged women who are likely on drugs, who are being exploited. Like having these parts of our body be something that our husband wants to use is such a difficult thing. And this profiting for me was a way to take my body back, to give it back to myself and to take care of myself rather than this is part of my body that is for someone else or for some other use.
I feel like this is part of me and how I can cope with betrayal trauma. I can integrate it back into myself and use it as part of my healing rather than disown it almost as a thing that’s for someone else’s use.
Why Is Bra Shopping Triggering?
Which I think it feels like a lot of times when you’re married to someone who’s an addict, who’s not in recovery, who’s using you as a drug rather than seeing you as a person to be cherished and loved and cared for. I think another reason why bra shopping is so triggering for women in at least my audience here listening is the advertising or seeing other women in their brass or whatever
And so it’s been interesting to go to your Instagram account, right? And see women in their bras. That is part of what is super triggery for many women in the situation. So I just wanna first of all do a trigger warning with also a notice that I think the more healed we get, the more we can realize that this is for me rather than worry about what our husband’s thinking or doing or how it’s affecting someone else.
embrace bras as a necessity: not just primarily for other people’s gratification.
Courtney: On my website, the message that I try to convey from my business and on my Instagram is that our society think of bras as sexual and so on my Instagram, I really try to show that they’re not just sexual. I really try to embrace that bras are more of a necessity and that they’re not just primarily for other people’s gratification. I really try to convey that, showing how bras can really help us to feel more confident.
Anne: And that’s what I really appreciated, rather than having it be for someone else’s gratification.
Courtney: Thank you.
I am enough and I don’t have to be anything else to be lovable
Anne: If anyone is doing it right, Courtney is. I immediately came home and told my mom, you have got to go do this. Knowing that I am enough and that whatever size I am is enough. I don’t need to be anything else to be lovable, to be cherished, and that I can find a bra that fits me where I’m at. I don’t have to be different in order to fit in the perfect bra rather than the other way around.
Going bra shopping and thinking, ugh, because I am damaged and I am not perfect. I’m never going to be able to find the bra that fits because bras only fit perfect women. I’m no longer going to let my stance against pornography get in the way of my own self-care.
Am I Over My Ex? The Best Way To Know
Jan 11, 2022
If you’re wondering, “Am I over my ex?” The question itself may tell you all you need to know.
1. Why Are you Asking, Am I Over My Ex?
Ask yourself why you’re asking this question. The fact that you’re asking probably means you’re still struggling with some aspect of the relationship. And it might not even be him, it might actually be the emotional abuse you endured.
To find out if you experienced any of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
2. If You Were Manipulated, You’ll Heal When You Know The Truth
Consider that you’re not working toward getting over your ex, you’re actually healing from all the lies he told you to deliberately mess with your mind. You might not need to know the details, but knowing that he’s a liar can be enough to help you get over him.
3. You’ll Know You’re Over Your Ex If Your Stomach Churns
If your stomach churns when you see a text from him. Or you want to crawl under a rock if you see him out and about, it’s likely that you’re totally over him. Even if you’re over your ex, you’ll likely still need to heal from the emotional damage he caused.
Anne: Since I’ve been podcasting for a long time and talked with women all over the world. One of the questions women sometimes ask is, am I over my ex? This next part of this episode is actually from one of the first episodes I ever recorded. I tell a story of how I knew I was feeling better. Since this time, I have used the strategies I developed in the Living Free Workshop to heal from all this emotional and psychological abuse and protect myself. To learn more about the Living Free Workshop strategies, click this link.
The rest of this episode will be that recording. From one of my first podcast episodes. I hope you enjoy it.
I wanted to do an update my own personal recovery. Because I was not angry for a long time. I was just super sad, and now I’m very angry. So my children are immature. Because they’re 8, 5 and 3 year old children. For example, I’ll say to my son, You need to do this. And he’ll kind of ignore me and walk around and not do it. I’ll say, you need to do this. And he ignores me. Then I’ll say, you really need to do this.
And he’ll say, What? You didn’t tell me this before. I know he heard me. And that triggers the same types of things that happen with my ex. This feeling of I’m saying something, but he’s not taking me seriously. So last night, I talked to a friend, and she said, that’s common with all children.
Comparing Addict Behavior
Anne: He’s not acting like an addict. And I said, actually, that’s not true, because addicts act like eight year olds. They’re immature, so they act like a five year old. So basically, I am face to face with the same types of behaviors in my addict spouse. Except for in three, five, and eight year olds. That’s appropriate behavior for their age.
It’s age appropriate. They’re learning how to tell the truth, how to listen, and how to interact with people. It’s appropriate for a five year old. Not appropriate for a 50 year old man, not at all. So I’m seeing these immature, age appropriate behaviors from my very young children. Trigger the trauma of the exact same behaviors from my immature, addict, lying ex-husband who is almost 40 years old. .
So immediately after my husband’s arrest, for about a year and a half, I went weekly to a 12 step meeting for wives of addicts. When a woman first discovers she’s been lied to, manipulated, and abused. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t feel like that is the right time to say things that you often hear in a 12 step meeting. Things like, you need to clean up your side of the street, or you need to learn to accept the things you cannot change.
Am I Over my ex? Betrayal Trauma Recovery Approach
Anne: Because that’s the same sort of thing he’ll tell you to manipulate you. But at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our first goal is safety, peace and boundaries are the only way to create that safety. So we’re not gonna be like, okay, let’s take a deep breath and accept the things that we cannot change. Because we do not think women should accept abuse or that women should be just allowing themselves to be abused. As they “work on themselves and clean up their side of the street.”
That’s a common thing that many women in 12 step think. Okay, if I focus on myself, I can make things better. But they’re still being abused. We believe that for professionals or groups to say you need to work on yourself in the face of abuse, is unethical. So if you’re asking, how can I support a woman who’s been abused?
Like, what can I say to her? Tell the woman that she’s amazing, strong, and hasn’t done anything wrong. She hasn’t done anything to deserve this. And that she deserves to be treated with respect. We truly believe that about you. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe there’s nothing pathologically wrong with you. That you’re a healthy person who is trying to get to safety in whatever way you can. which is completely normal.
Everybody goes through a phase of not understanding what’s happening. Everybody feels angry. sad, depressed. These are normal healthy reactions to abuse.
Ongoing Recovery Struggles
Anne: My betrayal trauma recovery journey is still in process. There are days that are really hard. The other night, I ate potato chips for dinner. Like literally, that’s all I ate. I just couldn’t bring myself to do anything else. It’s not easy. I’ve been doing this for years now. And I feel like I’m still in progress. I definitely feel happier and more peaceful than I did when I started.
I definitely feel safer. My safety level has gone from like a 1 or a 0 to a 10. I feel supported and loved. So the things I struggle with now are financial and parenting issues. There’s no quick fix for betrayal trauma.
And that’s part of, I think, where the anger comes from. I’m left dealing with all the consequences of my ex husband’s terrible choices. Not just for the night he sprained my fingers and was arrested. But from before we got married, from when he lied to me, from when he chose to watch pornography. From when he continued to decide to lie to me, to abuse me. And to manipulate rather than live in the truth. Am I over my ex? When he lies and abuses me currently, it is hard.
There was an interesting thing that happened this week. It showed how much I’ve changed in the past two years. My ex showed up for my kid’s parent teacher conference. It was my appointment that I scheduled. And he was able to look online at their account and see when it was. So when I took my 8 year old into his classroom for the meeting with his teacher, my ex was sitting there.
https://youtube.com/shorts/vTKD5_Eb8cE
Confronting my Ex
Anne: I did not want to sit in a meeting with him unless the first thing out of his mouth is “I have made nine years of terrible mistakes. One right after the other, and I now understand how my actions have harmed you. This is what I’m going to do to make restitution. This is how I will continue to make living amends to you until you feel safe.” Unless that is the first thing out of his mouth, I cannot bear to be in his presence.
Like, hey, how are you doing? Like, any small talk, I cannot. So, I said to my son, Oh, I wasn’t expecting your dad to be here. Why don’t you talk to your teacher with your dad? I’ll take your five year old brother to the other meeting, and then we’ll switch. So, I took my five year old to his kindergarten meeting, And as I was walking out, my ex came in. I walked straight up to him, and I said, you need to make your own appointments.
And he looked me in the eye and lied straight to my face and said oh, I just thought the school set this for me. And I didn’t realize it was your appointment. So I said, no, this is my appointment, and you need to make your own appointment from now on. I left and we switched kids. And then after he brought my son back to the other room, and as we were leaving, I didn’t acknowledge him. I told my sons, let’s head home. And I was just going to leave. He said wait, you’ve been coming to my appointments. And I said, “That’s not true”, because I know it’s not true.
Am I over my ex? Progress & Gratitude
Anne: And he said, well, this thing with our son’s preschool last year. You showed up for my appointment, which wasn’t true. We were never even in the same room together. So no, I did not show up for his appointment. I said, if you want to argue about this, you can message me. He put his hand on my shoulder and said, “I hope someday we can get along.” And I said, “We will never get along.”
It was amazing. I said my piece, I don’t “get along” with psychopaths. I don’t “get along” with people who lie right to my face continually. Or lie to other people about what I’ve done. I don’t get along with people like that, and I’m never going to. And I don’t choose friends like that. I avoid them at all costs, which is what I’m doing with him, and I will continue to do that. The fact that I could speak and not break down. It feels like I’m finally getting over my ex. The fact that I was able to say a very short statement was a sign that my recovery is working.
The answer to, am I over my ex? Is I’m making progress. Even if I couldn’t stop thinking about it. Even though what I did was perfect. I’m still kind of second guessing myself. But I love that I saw progress, and I’m so grateful for the changes that have taken place in my life. And I’m grateful for my friends and family.
Also, I’m grateful for you for being here with me through my recovery journey. And I hope that we have many years of beautiful recovery together, and that as all of us women become more and more healthy. We can be a great change for good in the world.
What Lack of Intimacy Does to a Woman – Maria’s Story
Jan 04, 2022
Most husband’s who use inappropriate media for intimacy don’t really care that they don’t meet their wife’s physical needs. Here’s what lack of intimacy does to a woman.
If your husband isn’t interested in intimacy with you, rather than listening to his gaslighting, see if he’s using any one of these 19 different types of emotional abuse. Take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Anne: On today’s episode, a certified sex therapist will talk about what it means to have safe sex. And what lack of intimacy does to a woman. We’re going to call her Maria. All right, so thinking about this topic of safety. Especially the question, is healthy sex possible after intimate betrayal? I mean, where do we even start?
Maria: You know, when we choose our spouse, it’s really a matter of, I’ll keep you safe and you keep me safe. And we’ll look out for each other. So when our person has secretive behaviors. Whether with another person or with pornography, this is a safety risk.
Anne: Yeah, because the lying and the gaslighting is all emotional and psychological abuse.
Maria: Yes, in the support group, I often hear stories of how women feel. Some throw up, some can’t breathe. Some can’t get off the floor, because their person is their person for safety. And when they are betrayed, they are not safe.
Anne: I felt that right after my husband’s arrest, when I realized that things were bad. Because before, I didn’t understand my true situation. I didn’t understand what was going on. And after his arrest, I lost like 15 pounds in three weeks. I couldn’t eat, I couldn’t sleep. Realizing that the person I’d been relying on was never safe. But I didn’t know that.
Maria: Yes.
Navigating Safety After Betrayal
Maria: So many times in the aftermath of betrayal, We experience come here, go away, come here, my husband, come here for safety. Oh, wait, you just betrayed me. You’ve lied. You’ve cheated. Go away for safety. Wait, wait, wait, where are you going? Come back for safety. No, no, go away for safety. This can happen emotionally. We can want to go to our husband emotionally for safety. And we can go toward our husband for sexual safety, for physical safety. We are so vulnerable when we are going to be sexual with someone.
When we take off our clothes, when we are naked with someone, that leaves us tremendously vulnerable. And for women especially, the sexual act is one of our most vulnerable times ever. Doesn’t get more vulnerable than that. For those who choose to stay with their abusive spouse. This means they’re choosing to stay with the source of pain.
And the source of their safety risk and to navigate not only how to function daily with someone they don’t trust, but they also do this tough job of trying to figure out how to maneuver physical and sexual intimacy. And what lack of intimacy does to a woman.
Anne: In my case, once I realized my husband wasn’t safe, I observed from a safe distance. To watch what he would do. And he shut down my bank account, and he didn’t make any effort to see the kids. And he was lying about what had happened. He actually said to people she wouldn’t have sex with me. How am I supposed to be in a loveless marriage?
Determining Your Level of Safety
Anne: She also won’t talk to me. How are we supposed to work out our marriage issues? If she won’t talk to me? And so it’s traumatic either way, whether you stay or are separated. In both cases, the first step is to determine your level of safety. Which is what the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is for. Because you might determine that he’s not even safe enough to talk to, let alone have sex with.
Maria: Yes. I agree with you. Safety must be the first step. We cannot be that vulnerable with somebody unless we know we are safe with them. Sometimes women will choose to be sexual to try to keep him from cheating on her again. And women often compare themselves to their husband’s affair partner, whether it’s a pornographic image or a prostitute.
Women will compare themselves to that affair partner and wonder what’s wrong with them and why they don’t measure up . And sometimes partners will choose to be sexual in ways they wouldn’t otherwise, to try to measure up to what they imagine that affair partner was like or to measure up to the person in the pornography. That’s what lack of intimacy does to a woman.
Anne: Which is sexual coercion. I mean, that’s a form of sexual abuse.
Maria: Always, because we’re at risk. Women who decide to be sexual with their spouse who has betrayed them are at risk. When we get scared, we might feel like I need to do this so that he won’t cheat on me again, or he won’t leave me. They do something they don’t want to do, that they might never have done, out of fear and desperation. We really experience distress from having that experience.
What lack of intimacy does to a woman: The Impact of Sexual Coercion
Anne: Yeah, of course, we’re going to be distressed when we’re a victim of sexual coercion.
Maria: Yes, why do I still want to be with him? Why, after he’s hurt me so much, do I want to stay? In that place, it’s important that I realize I’m not staying because there’s something wrong with me.
Anne: Yeah, part of the sexual coercion is his manipulation. Manipulating us to think that if we’d been somehow different, he wouldn’t have cheated. And that’s also a threat. That’s the definition of sexual coercion. You feel like you have to have sex. Because you’re threatened and manipulated. That’s when we realized that we’re a victim of a type of sexual abuse. And what lack of intimacy does to a woman.
Maria: Really, there’s nothing you could have been, done, or acted like to keep the betrayal from happening. That is their choice. It’s not because you did or said something wrong, or weren’t enough or too much. It’s because that person chose, that’s on him. I joined the support group, and there were women of all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, ages, educational backgrounds, and socioeconomic backgrounds. And it proved it didn’t matter how I showed up in the world. It’s not my fault he betrayed me.
Anne: One of the fears I felt was that my husband would say to his family or other people she’s not giving me sex, because in society, that’s like terrible. If a husband says she refuses to have that, then all the problems are my fault because I’m saying no. They don’t know, that’s sexual coercion. If she can’t say no, then she can’t say yes. So that’s a really serious form of sexual abuse that people aren’t recognizing.
The Fear of Saying no
Maria: Yes. And addicts tend to use that as justification, which is not fair or accurate. I get really scared here and often wonder, is it okay to say no? I fear being criticized for saying no or being condemned. And I feel a fear of being a bad wife or a fear of being alone. On the one hand, I value being a good and loving wife, and I might tell myself that being that kind of wife means. I show up sexually, at the very same time wanting to pull away from him to be safe.
So on one hand, I think I should show up at the same moment. Oh, I think I shouldn’t show up. Again, do I go toward him? Or do I pull away from him? That’s what lack of intimacy does to a woman.
Another example, I value keeping an intact family unit. So the kids have limited exposure to emotional abuse, gaslighting, or other safety issues. And I feel like I have to have sex to maintain an intact family. Some think honoring God means honoring or submitting sexually to their husband. I honor God by being authentic, by protecting this body that God gave me, by protecting my heart that God gave me.
Am I honoring God by being sexual when I don’t want to? Or am I honoring God by not and protecting myself?
Anne: Yeah, with sexual coercion, it’s so difficult to sort through the manipulation and gaslighting. To figure out how you actually feel.
Maria: Yes, it gets really confusing.
Taking physical intimacy off the table
Anne: Yeah, so many of us have been manipulated so much, and our emotions have been hijacked by the emotional abuse. Because he wants us to focus all our energy on him. We’re thinking, how does he feel? How is he doing? What can I do to help him? What can I do to ensure our families are intact? So many women have said that to me. I didn’t even recognize that I felt emotionally unsafe, and I didn’t even know what emotional safety meant. Before they recognize the emotional abuse, they don’t even know they can say no.
About six months before my husband was arrested. I decided that I did not feel emotionally safe during sex. And so I stopped initiating. Historically, I had initiated sex, and I told him, you’re welcome to initiate if you want, but I’m not going to initiate it anymore. I’m not going to say yes if I don’t feel emotionally connected. He didn’t attempt in any way, shape or form to connect emotionally with me.
I really remember this, I had purchased a workbook for the two of us to go through, to improve our marriage. And one night, I pulled it out and he was so excited about it. He was like, this is going to be amazing. And I said, if you want to do it again, you’re going to need to be the one that initiates it.
And he was like, I’m going to do that. That’s going to be great. And he never did, not once. Like he never initiated that workbook. He never initiated sex. So I learned what lack of intimacy does to a woman.
What lack of intimacy does to a woman: The abuser perceives himself as a victim
Anne: So for me, it was helpful to see that he was exploiting me to do all the work in the relationship. And he used emotional and psychological abuse to do that.
Maria: There’s real value in taking sex off the table. Let’s imagine, the husband is not reaching for his wife. She is not having emotional intimacy or physical intimacy. Instead, he has sexual experiences outside the relationship. The hope for the couple is that if we shut down the sexual experiences outside the marriage, we will now have intimacy inside the marriage. Except that’s not what happens.
One of the common beliefs of someone with a sex addiction is that sex is my most important need. It’s not their most important need. We could live without it. If someone is not sexual, they’re not going to die or spontaneously combust. They’re emotionally abusive behaviors. We need to know what we’re dealing with, so we can make choices.
Anne: Yeah, one of the things I’ve learned is that abuse is a character issue, a way that they perceive the world. The abuser perceives himself as a victim. And that’s what causes him to be emotionally and psychologically abusive and use sexual coercion. Because he’s a victim, he’s entitled to these things, and he’s not getting them. When in reality that’s just not true.
Maria: Many addicts exhibit profound gaslighting behaviors because they’re trying not to get caught. They’re trying to get their spouse to back up, to not find out about their secret. They will be manipulative, bullying, mean, and say critical and contemptuous things to get the wife to back up. What lack of intimacy does to a woman.
The Role of Gaslighting
Anne: Yeah, I just wish I could have seen that for the emotional and psychological abuse it was. I mean, when I went through it, and I think most addicts think like this. My ex was like, Oh, yeah I’m a sex addict. So now I’m going to recover, and I’m going to be sober for six weeks, and then we can have sex again. And he was just checking boxes off the list, to groom me.
A lot of times we talk about healthy sexuality. I assume everyone else assumes we’re talking about actually engaging in sex. But I’d like to point out that healthy sexuality could mean abstinence. Healthy sexuality refrains from sex, with someone emotionally abusive. Who’s gaslighting you and lying to you. And who doesn’t respect you. I mean healthy sexuality in that scenario is abstinence.
Maria: We need to talk about gaslighting here and the consequences of gaslighting because he will do and say things that distort her reality. If he’s rewriting history, she’s going to wonder what’s true. The consequences of gaslighting are she will doubt herself, her intuition, what’s real. Over time, a decline in her ability to trust herself, to trust gut instincts. We often talk about how our intuition has been damaged. Our ability to trust our gut instinct has been damaged.
They doubt themselves, and if they doubt themselves, they doubt their ability to stay safe in the world. They doubt their ability to pick a safe partner. How will I not get back into the same kind of relationship with the next guy? What’s gonna keep me from picking another sex addict? The gaslighting erodes our intuition, and confuses what feels safe. That’s what lack of intimacy does to a woman.
Healthy Sexuality & Abstinence
Anne: Yeah, I feel like being in touch with ourselves, and our intuition, is the first line of defense before even attempting to date again.
Maria: Absolutely, yes, I hope to take the time to heal before getting into another relationship.
Anne: And for single women, I think that’s what healthy sexuality looks like. I mean, for someone who has either never been married or divorced. Healthy sexuality looks like I have a voice, I can speak it, I have boundaries, I can say no.
Maria: As a sex therapist, a series of conversations I often have are, how did you learn how to be a sexual being? Where did you learn? What did you learn about your body parts, how to be in relationship? And what did you learn about sex or being sexual?
What did they believe about their body and challenge some beliefs they may have learned, because that’s what someone told them to believe. And really come to terms with what they authentically believe. To help them define their value system. So that when they approach a romantic relationship with another partner, they can have their behavior align with their values. That’s healthy sexuality.
Anne: Yeah, that’s been really important to me. Well, Maria, thank you so much for talking with us today about what lack of intimacy does to a woman.
Teaching Children How To Set Boundaries with Kimberly Perry
Dec 28, 2021
Parents are rightfully concerned about their children’s safety. If you’re searching for tips on teaching children how to set boundaries, here’s what you need to know.
Children Need To Set Boundaries to Keep Themselves Safe
Here are four practical and empowering boundaries strategies when teaching children how to set boundaries:
Body awareness with basic hygiene, health, and safety concepts
The dangers of inappropriate media on the Internet and apps
Personal Safety – prevention awareness of safe boundaries for private parts
Educate children about emotional and psychological abuse. To learn about the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
transcript: Teaching Children How To Set Boundaries
Anne: Today I have Kimberly Perry, author of Say No and Tell, a creative view of personal safety for Maisie. That’s the girl’s version, and Daxton for boys. After teaching personal safety to over 1,000 elementary school students, she was inspired to write the Say No and Tell book series. We’re talking about teaching children how to set boundaries. Welcome, Kimberly.
Kimberly: Thank you, Anne, for having me.
Anne: So, I have these two books, Say No and Tell Daxton and Say No and Tell Maisie, in my home, and I’ve used it with my sons and my daughter. These books are incredible for helping children. Kimberly, why did you decide to write a book about personal safety for young kids?
Kimberly: The statistics were shocking to me. How can it be that at least 2 out of every 10 girls and 1 out of every 10 boys are estimated to be sexually abused before their 14th birthday? According to Child Protective Services, every 8 minutes they respond to an abuse report. According to the CDC, about 1 in 6 boys and 1 in 4 girls are abused before the age of 18.
While serving as a health and physical education teacher in the Michigan public school system, I taught a unit called personal safety to over a thousand elementary students. I wondered why I had not been taught these prevention strategies when I was a child.
Sexual abuse can be physical abuse. Which most of us think of when we hear that term. It can also be non physical abuse, which is what a child might see, such as pornography. Or what a child might hear, which would be inappropriate language about private parts from a grown up to a child.
Empowering Families with Personal Safety
Kimberly: So with my experience of teaching these children and seeing the statistics, I want to share the message of personal safety for grownups, kids, and families, so they can be empowered. Like I mentioned earlier, it’s not just the physical body abuse. It’s the non physical, which includes pornography, and can be a grooming technique that a predator may use to groom a child into child abuse.
Anne: That’s fantastic. I can use it to meet my kids where they are when teaching children how to set boundaries and concepts that I think apply to various personal safety issues. Sexual abuse, of course, included in that, but in my case, emotional abuse. I’m grateful that this gives such great examples, and then the concepts are applicable to many situations for kids’ safety.
Kimberly: Anne, I am so delighted to hear you say that, because I want you to tailor it to what you need, your family values, your family terminology, and your story. So for instance, you were talking about abuse in general.
Well, boundaries is one of those concepts. Boundaries define our personal property. And they allow us to take care of it by setting limits on others and internal limits within ourselves. So we teach our kids self control. That would be an example of an internal limit, the boundary of saying no defines ownership. It lets others know that we exist apart from them and are in control. So whether emotionally, mentally, spiritually, or physically, boundaries are important. So that we know where we begin and someone else ends.
Structure of the Say No and Tell Books
Kimberly: Within the book, there are three parts basically. Part one is the story where Maisie and Daxton in their own separate books embark on a journey of growing up, and their bodies change and prepare to migrate. The parents teach them personal safety before they go, and throughout you’ll see open-ended questions where you can define your terminology and values. You can pick and choose what you feel your child is ready to hear about boundaries, depending on what age.
Part 2 of the book has 8 scenarios in which I research the predator, and turn those tactics into life skills for kids. So that we go on the offensive and not just be defensive. Some examples of the scenarios are privacy, private moments, guarding your eyes and ears. What is a safe secret versus an unsafe secret? What is a bribe, a threat and what is a safe game, etc?
And then finally, the third section has solutions with numerous tools. There’s a quiz, a personal safety family plan, resources, and then a removable section for grown ups with all kinds of statistics. As well as practical ideas of how do I talk to my kid about body awareness? What do I say?
Anne: I loved when I got to the safe secrets part, because we have a rule in our family: our family has no secrets. We call things for birthdays or presents fun surprises. So when I got to that section in your book, I was able to say there are no secrets. We only have safe surprises. So I changed the wording there to match our own family’s terminology of what I’ve been using for years. It’s so important to talk about these things when protecting children from online harm.
Teaching Childeren How To Set Boundaries: Family Rules and Safe Secrets
Anne: And it was so validating to share that in a book with my kids, because I hadn’t seen that in a book. So that was cool.
Kimberly: And Anne, you picked up on one of the themes throughout the book. You’ll notice the repetition, which in my training as an educator, is that repetition is important for our brains so that we memorize. You’ll see over and over again. Tell and keep telling until it stops. It might seem overdone, but for it to become part of what they do when there is a questionable encounter. Or something traumatizing.
Our amygdala kicks in and we’re in this fight or flight. And it’s really nice to know this simple “tell and keep telling until it stops,” these kinds of slogans can pop into their minds and help them to move into action.
As I involve myself more and more with this movement to protect kids and end sexploitation, there seems to be consensus that it’s not too young to begin around preschool through the elementary ages, so ages three to nine. Particularly when you notice a child becoming curious about the body and gender differences. Which can be very early on and is a natural part of developing body awareness. It’s key to affirm this stage and phase that it’s not shameful.
Teaching children how to set boundaries, rather than reproduction, safe touches. Which feel comfortable telling them your body belongs to you. It’s okay to say no, thank you to any touches, whether it’s a safe touch or especially an unsafe touch. If they don’t feel like having a hug, they don’t have to have a hug.
Teaching Kids About Body Autonomy
Kimberly: That way they know they are responsible for their body and they are allowed to set boundaries. And also that privacy is okay, as they’re becoming more independent. Then they can learn about having privacy.
Anne: Yeah, I have found that three is not too young to start to teach healthy intimacy. It’s cute, because my two year old calls a penis a peanut, because she can’t quite talk. Her brother’s four. And so she’ll say, Mom, where’s my peanut? And I’ll say, you don’t have a penis because you’re a girl.
Kimberly: That’s cute.
Anne: The other thing I think is funny, and I appreciate it about your book, is that my sons hate mermaids. And my seven year old is like, Mom, I do not know who invented mermaids. They are ridiculous. They only have those shells for breast covers. I do not like them. So I think that’s cute that they can talk about when they feel uncomfortable. They have the words to describe their discomfort or curiosity, which I think is important for kids.
Kimberly: And teaching kids about their instincts. That uh oh feeling deep down in their belly, and encouraging them to learn to trust that. That is letting them know that something is not right, and they need to talk to somebody and tell them and get help. You’ll also want to note that this book does not cover reproduction which is saved for an age appropriate time at your discretion.
Anne: Even though these books don’t cover reproduction, there are other age appropriate books that do, so I appreciate that these talk specifically about unsafe touching, and that I can apply that to the different situations.
Teaching Children boundaries: Practical Tips for Parents
Anne: Because talking to kids is so important, what do parents need to know? When they’re teaching children about boundaries and what to do when they’re exposed to a questionable encounter.
Kimberly: The simplest way I boiled it down to: say no, get away, tell, and keep telling. When I thought and prayed about this jingle, I wanted it short, sweet, and rhyme, but also something that packed a punch and wasn’t leaving anything out.
The way it’s read is, say no and get away if you can, tell someone and keep telling until it stops, take a stand. So the rhyme goes, say no, get away if you can, tell someone and keep telling until it stops, take a stand. And that last part is important, because often times kids statistics show they often share with a friend that’s their age, or they seldom tell. So even if it is reported, it doesn’t mean it’s always reported to the right person to stop it.
Teaching Children About Boundaries: Develop Safety Protocols
Kimberly: You want to ensure your child has their address memorized and their phone number. You will want to develop a family code word for danger. For instance, if your child is at a play date or an overnight sleepover. They can check in with you and say whatever word you have would be the code for, Come pick me up, things are not going great.
And it is also important to develop some sort of check-in rule of at a certain time. Or you text each other to see how it’s going when they’re away from you. It’s also important that kids know how to dial 911. And you tell them the safe caregivers and trusted grown ups in your lives.
And choose five of them, where you write their name and phone numbers. This is a significant distinguishing point: if anyone ever tries an unsafe touch, whether physical or non physical, that person is no longer safe.
Anne: Yep, I talk to my children about that quite a bit. It’s not just about strangers. Statistically speaking, a child is more likely to be abused by someone they know than by a stranger.
Kimberly: Yeah, 90 percent of children who are victims of abuse know their abuser.
Anne: Yeah, making sure kids are safe from strangers and being abducted is important. But 90 percent of the time, it’s going to be someone they know. So talking about how to determine whether someone is safe, and if they seem safe, but they’re actually unsafe. Those are important things to talk about, absolutely.
New Training Workbook for Organizations
Anne: So tell me about your new book. A training workbook intended for clergy or teachers.
Kimberly: This training workbook is designed for any grown ups working with children within organizations. However, I’ve found that many parents have also been buying the book to train themselves personally about how to help kids set boundaries.
Youth pastors can train their children’s ministry volunteers. You could train your karate club and all the staff members working there or a soccer club. Any staff members or grownups working with kids with an organization will benefit.
The positive feedback was supportive. There was a man who came up to me afterwards, and this is what he said about the training. He says, I’ve always felt this was institutional denial, and it’s almost universal. This is the first time in 35 years of regular church attendance that I’ve learned that there are well developed materials available to combat this problem.
He was referring to the Me Too movement. Penn State University, Michigan State University and the gymnasts with Larry Nassar and institutional denial. He has seen that as a concern over the years, even though it’s a sensitive topic. He was delighted that we were beginning the conversation. The most important part is to learn the child friendly language. What I like to tell parents is that the kids, the grown ups, and the organizations, even though there is discomfort and taking the time to learn about preventing child abuse.
Real-Life Stories & Feedback
Kimberly: I cannot tell you how many people have shared with me their personal stories. People up in their seventies, all the way down to their twenties and thirties, sharing with me their personal stories of child abuse that they’ve never told anyone before.
We want to make the term personal safety commonplace or familiar on two fronts, both inside the home and outside the home. As you mentioned earlier, there are the two Say No and Tell children’s books inside the home. This new launch of the training workbook is for training outside the home. Anyone can present this boundaries and personal safety workshop and take the preventative steps to safeguard against child abuse by empowering everyone in your organization.
You want to do an environmental scan where you go through and rope off vulnerable places within the environment. You want to come up with a code of conduct for interacting with children. And this could be tailored for infants, toddlers, elementary age, or teens. And that way everyone understands the protocols. For instance, when a third grader needs to take a bathroom break, what needs to happen and what does that look like?
Everyone should understand what those are so that everyone’s on the same page while children learn about boundaries.
A mom of a 16 year old, one of the slogans she learned is that telling is not tattling. And so there was a social media incident. She explained to her daughter, please let me know what’s going on. And she said, telling is not tattling. And they were able to intervene within this questionable social media interaction.
Kimberly: And there was another mom who read the say no and tell book, a mother of a sixth grader.
Children can Set Boundaries: More Real-Life Stories
And a similar situation where she took in the content and then made it her own for a daughter who’s a little older. They were at the pool swimming, and there was a man staring uncomfortably at their daughter.
The daughter had the courage to go up to her parents and say, I’m feeling uncomfortable, he’s staring at me. She was so uncomfortable, she was trying to hide behind her parents, and they discussed it more. It was neat, because they had that communication where she could recognize that uh oh feeling and that instinct inside of her saying, there’s something not right here.
Not only are we instilling in children that it’s okay and safe to tell. But if that first person doesn’t believe you, or the second or the third person, then you’ve got to keep telling. Until the right person believes you and will make it stop.
Anne: Applying it to my own situation, where I was married to an abusive man for seven years, and talked to people about it. I kept talking about it, and I didn’t know at the time that it was abuse. I didn’t describe it that way, because I didn’t have the words to say that at the time.
Until I finally figured out what was going on, and that was just simply thanks to my ex husband being arrested. Because of his arrest, I finally got the clarity I needed. I was so happy to see that in that jingle, keep telling until it stops, because that is what I did. And I think it kept me a lot safer than if I hadn’t said anything.
When kids start telling, they might not have the words to describe it. They might not come to you and say, I’m being abused, right? They might not have those words. I pray that all victims of abuse can continue to try and talk about it to the best of their ability until they have the words for it. Or until a helper gives them the right words, this can apply how we can protect children online as well.
Kimberly: That example you gave is powerful, because it parallels exactly what we’re talking about. I was at the Coalition to End Exploitation in Washington, D.C., and one of the speakers shared a quote that I thought was interesting. When it comes to trafficking and child abuse, whether it’s a boy or a girl that’s a child or a man and a woman, it’s the same person, it’s just a different stage of life.
Abuse is abuse, no matter at what point in time we’re learning it. It’s a powerful tool, because at that point, we can actually begin to change the trajectory of our life. And up until then, like you said, we just don’t know. Kids don’t know what’s happening. They’re not understanding what’s going on.
They’re not sure how to say it or who to tell. And you understand the lies, the isolation. There are threats that keep us trapped. The more we can have these conversations, train, empower and bring it into the light. We can help ourselves, but also the next generation.
Anne: Thank you so much, Kimberly, for coming on the podcast today.
Kimberly: Thank you. I really enjoyed it.
Rethinking The Betrayal Trauma Process with Barbara Steffens
Dec 21, 2021
If you’re wondering how long the betrayal trauma process takes to heal, here’s what you need to know.
Betrayal trauma is what women experience before and after they discover their husband’s infidelity. And it’s not just from the discovery of his lies. It’s also caused by years of invisible emotional and psychological abuse. To find out if you’ve experienced emotional abuse (even without knowing it), take our free emotional abuse test.
Transcript: Rethinking The Betrayal Trauma Process
Anne: It is my honor and delight to have Barb Steffens here today. Welcome, Barb.
Barbara: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.
Anne: I’m so honored to have you here today. Partners have difficulty finding appropriate support and help for themselves. Why do you think it’s so difficult to find appropriate support?
Barbara: First, there’s not a lot of knowledge about abuse in general. In a counseling program, when I look at the course offerings, there’s very little that’s even being taught to therapists who are getting trained about the impact on the family.
There’s not a lot of public education on the topic. And it still tends to be one of those things that people don’t understand, and so they don’t want to talk about it. So there’s just very, very little information out there. I think the general, let’s say therapist or counselor, maybe they have some awareness of addiction. But they don’t make the leap to trauma process for the wife.
Sometimes people think they know enough because they read one book or something. And so then they start saying, yes, I can help this population, and end up not being helpful and sometimes hurtful. But I think it’s a lack of information, certainly a lack of training.
Societal & Religious Misunderstandings
Anne: I’ve been talking to my mom about this, and it seems like I’m fighting two fronts. Society in general and their misunderstanding of the issue, and then also the church. Both populations misunderstand it. The religious community sees it a certain way, and they think you should heal in a certain way. That, at least for me, was not helpful at all. And then society in general accepts pornography or they don’t understand the trauma process.
Barbara: I’m glad you brought up faith community. Because I, too, have found they don’t talk about it. They’re afraid to talk about it, or when they do, they lack adequate information. And especially when the wife goes for assistance, they can get crazy kind of advice that can be hurtful too.
Like, just be more sexual. Of course, when your husband looks at pornography, you must not be doing something you’re supposed to do. So those kinds of things don’t help at all. Trying to get into faith communities to educate them on this is extremely difficult. I think they have a lot of fear, they don’t want to talk about it. I think we also know that leadership in faith communities is struggling with this.
Anne: Plus the fact that it’s betrayal trauma in a relationship, and with the trauma process model, we identify as actual true victims.
Barbara: Right.
Anne: Not that we don’t have choices, or not that we can’t be empowered. But I think for a faith community, they don’t want to admit that his behavior has left a trail of destruction.
Trauma & Victim Blaming
Anne: You know, they’d rather have it be, well, this is my part. And your part is, you ask me too many questions or don’t make dinner. Or one of my coaches said her religious community told her she needed to win him over with her godly demeanor. So that type of stuff is re- traumatizing to women.
Barbara: Yeah. And you’re describing the distorted thoughts and beliefs of someone who’s engaging in compulsive sexual behavior. Those responses from faith communities sound like so much of the distorted thinking. It’s somebody else’s fault. It’s not that bad. No one needs to know. No one is hurt. They minimize, rationalize, and blame shift. And so unfortunately, many places do the same level of harm that the person does who is betraying their spouse. They use the same tactics.
Anne: Absolutely, my church leader abused me. This happens when churches don’t believe abuse victims. That is more traumatizing to me than the actual betrayal. Because I went to someone for help, and they re-abused me. I say abuse by proxy, because he believed all the things my ex was saying, yeah. So describe treatment induced trauma. We’ve just talked about it.
Barbara: Treatment induced trauma is when the spouse goes to someone that they expect that someone can help me. And then in that trauma process, they find themselves feeling harmed. And sometimes the harm in that setting can feel worse than the original betrayal, because you go feeling betrayed. You need to tell someone, get some assistance. And then when they don’t believe you and you are blamed. Or it is minimized, it just adds to the level of trauma.
Trauma Process: Comparing to Child Abuse
Barbara: I compare it to a child who’s sexually abused. They have the courage to speak up and tell someone and when that person doesn’t believe them or tells them they must have imagined things. Or they shouldn’t talk like that, then that person pulls away and is even more hurt. Not being believed is worse than the actual abuse. When you are’t heard, seen, believed, or valued. It really intensifies the betrayal trauma.
So it’s institutional betrayal. Again, this expectation that this place or this person I’m going to is there for me. Then when they turn against me, they add more harm and trauma, so that’s what it is. I can tell you, I hear it all the time.
I get emails, letters, phone calls from women from all over the United States and many other countries, and they’re all describing that similar experience. Experience of taking the risk to go and tell someone, and then not heard or harmed in the process. And it really angers me, because by now, there’s enough information out here that I would think people would know what not to do, but it still occurs.
Anne: One of the things I see is that the addict is so good at lying and manipulating. Others believe them over the victim repeatedly. And how do you get away from that if someone’s lying about you and someone is manipulating the support that you’re trying to get? It’s really difficult to want to get help, to be willing to get help, to actually make the effort to get help and then be harmed further.
Misunderstanding in Therapy
Barbara: Yeah, and a lot of times the first person the spouse visits is either their clergy, who’s going to look at it as a marriage issue, or a couple’s counselor. Who’s going to view it through the lens of a marriage issue, and it’s not a marriage issue. A lot of times people try to treat it as a couple’s issue, and it’s not. And I think, again, that’s where many partners are just as you’ve described. Harmed, not understood, or abused within the session, and the therapist doesn’t catch it.
Therapists are trained to recognize physical abuse. But they don’t have much awareness of emotional abuse, verbal abuse, especially psychological abuse and manipulation. And so again, they’re going to see that as a communication issue, rather than a power issue, a control issue or an abuse issue.
Many times people think the only trauma process is the discovery of the secrets, and that’s horrific, that’s traumatic. But what’s missed in many help settings is that ongoing emotional abuse has occurred. It’s already done tons of damage and harm to the victim.
Barbara: Yes, right, they may have stopped behaviors, the acting out behaviors, but they haven’t started to practice healthy relational behaviors.
Anne: Or in some cases, I don’t know if they’ve stopped acting out sexually at all.
Barbara: When partners, let’s say it’s six months to a year after discovery, and partners are still not getting “better” in their view. I’m doing that in quotation marks. You can’t see me doing that, but the partners aren’t getting better.
Pathologizing the Partner
Barbara: Most often it’s because either there’s ongoing sexual acting out that has not yet been uncovered, he’s lying, which is ongoing chronic emotional abuse, manipulation, psychological abuse, and gaslighting, just the things you were describing. So how is a partner supposed to start to heal when the traumatizing has not stopped?
Anne: Exactly.
Barbara: And so we pathologize the partner for not getting well, rather than she doesn’t feel safe. And to me, that is a huge place where treatment induced trauma process occurs, where the partner is blamed for her not getting better when she is abused.
Anne: I see that time and time again. And it’s so distressing to me because the women in these situations are feeling guilty. They’re feeling terrible. They can’t figure out why they don’t feel good when the behaviors they’re describing to me and their husbands sound terrible. And I’m thinking, your therapist isn’t picking this up.
Barbara: They’re not addressing the abusive behaviors that go along with the chronic viewing of pornography or the other types of sexual acting out that can happen with this type of addiction.
They’re looking at the acting out behaviors alone, not looking at how it impacts the character, and getting in the way of that individual caring about empathy for the people they’re harming. So they can talk about how to control their behavior, so they’re not using pornography, but they’re not addressing how this has impacted your wife. One of the saddest impacts is that it gets in the way of spouses, partners and help for themselves.
Trauma Process: Impact on Mental Health
Barbara: Who wants to get help and be told that you’re part of the problem, that there’s something wrong in you, or this wouldn’t have happened to you. And then if they don’t agree, they pull away and say, well, I can’t trust telling this to anybody, because all I’m doing is getting blamed for it. And so they pull away and don’t seek help again.
So to me, that’s the greatest damage, because we know that people who don’t get help, who are traumatized. Or who are in chronically unsafe, abusive relationships can develop longer-term chronic mental health issues. So it just adds to the level of distress for the spouse. So for me, that’s the greatest impact. But also there’s that secondary trauma that the partner experiences.
So they are not only working through the betrayal trauma process in their relationship. But they also work through the betrayal trauma they experienced at the hand of a clergy member, therapist or other health provider, a physician. Many people will go to a physician to talk about what’s going on, and try to get say medication or something. And the physician can do harmful things.
It’s the extra trauma that doesn’t need to be there, that shame that comes when a partner is blamed for what happens to them. Partners experience that anyway. That’s also our first response. You know, what’s wrong with me that this happened? How did I not know? What did I do or not do that?
That my husband is acting this way. But then when a care provider shames them or blames them, that just heaps more shame on the partner.
Seeking Help & Support
Anne: Yeah, and it’s an extended form of the abuse.
Barbara: Yeah. There’s a lot of gaslighting that happens to partners and it’s not all within the relationship.
Anne: Exactly.
Barbara: Partners are getting wiser now that there are more resources available to them, like what you are doing. This is phenomenal that you are offering this kind of information for spouses. So getting educated, ask what kind of model do you use? Do you believe all partners are codependent? You want a therapist or coach aware of what you need. And that’s their primary focus is on getting to know you and identifying how they can help you and allow you to be active in the process.
Unfortunately, I hear a lot of times partners go to get help, and there’s not much room for individual needs. Unfortunately, a lot of therapists say, well, I treat. blah, blah, blah, well, no, you shouldn’t have to train your treatment provider, if there’s prior treatment or some kind of treatment induced trauma process that they experienced, like, from their faith community. Processing that, talking about it, working on ways to find healing for that.
Talk that through with someone, so that you know what all your options are, and then do what fits for you.
Anne: For me, being stuck in that, wanting to pick it, not that I would literally want to do that, but phase. This is an institutional problem that I see within my church, and it needs to change. I don’t know how to change it. I don’t even know where to start. Last night, I spent a lot of time actually just praying.
Individual Responsibility & Change
Anne: What do you want me to do, God? I don’t know how to even overcome this. I don’t even know if that’s healthy for me to worry about the institution as a whole or feel like the weight of that is on my shoulders. But because I talked to so many women about it, I think someone has to do something. And maybe that is me. I don’t know. It’s just such a difficult thing.
Barbara: It really is. Short of picketing, I don’t know if picketing would be helpful, but the services you provide your podcasts, through the coaching you provide, are making a difference. That’s bringing about change. You know, and in large part because of the services you provide, spouses and partners have been educated. They have found support, they are connected with other women who believe similar things, and is changing the institution.
Because they are speaking up. So there are many things that we can do. It’s up to the individual to decide what makes sense for them, and what’s safe for them to do. Because this is risky stuff.
Anne: It’s not something I necessarily like to do, but it needs to be done. And I appreciate everything you personally have done.
Barbara: Well, I have experienced it as a call on my life that whenever I have the opportunity to talk to someone about partners, spouses of sex addicts, and what they need. So whatever opportunity I have to verbalize how extreme this need is for ethical and appropriate care for partners. I’m going to do it.
Anne: Thank you, thank you. I’ll be the collective voice of thanks. Thank you.
Barbara: And I’m not alone in doing it.
Trauma Process: You Are Courageous & amazing
Anne: It’s an amazing community.
Barbara: Yeah.
Anne: We’re trying to provide it for women where they are and when they need it. Because so many women are so busy with their children or their work schedules. That just one more thing, in addition to all the trauma, is very difficult. Which may be a reason why women don’t get help. It’s because they’re so overwhelmed with everything.
Barbara: Oh, absolutely, absolutely, I am always amazed when in the throes of crisis. Somehow or other find their way to think clearly enough to get help. Knowing that they can have additional support just by going online. I love that.
Anne: Shouting out into the void of the universe. We are here, you are supported, you can come. It doesn’t matter where you live. You can find us, and we are here for you.
Barbara: Yes. I want to say to the partners listening to this, that I’m so proud of you for doing what it takes to get support. And information that you’re seeking out. Because that takes risk, especially if you’ve already read things or heard things that didn’t make sense to you or hurt you. And if you are still seeking, you are courageous and amazing.
So I want you to know that. I’m grateful for these types of podcasts. Thanks so much for the work Betrayal Trauma Recovery is doing, because it’s so shaming, so scary to think about telling someone. There’s nothing more isolating, so taking a risk to listen to a podcast takes courage. So I want to thank you for that. And I want to commend you for that.
Anne: Dr. Steffens, thank you so much for being here.
50 Things You Need To Know About Betrayal Trauma In A Relationship
Dec 14, 2021
If you’re experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship, here’s a list of 50 things you need to know. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
This A-Z Betrayal Trauma Glossary is intended to help women learn everything they need to know about betrayal trauma in a relationship: what caused it and what to do next. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.
Abuse
A way of thinking that deems exploitation of another person acceptable. The aim of abuse is control and exploitation. Abuse is not just physical assault. Abusers use tactics that impact emotional, psychological, spiritual, sexual, and financial well-being. The results are devastating and severe to his wife, as well as any children in the home.
Emotional and psychological abuse are devastating with severe consequences to women and children. Women in non-physical abusive relationships are often so manipulated, they don’t even know their husband is emotionally or psychologically abusive. Abusive people don’t lose control. They try to assert control through lies, manipulation, anger, sexual coercion, marital rape, physical intimidation or violence.
Pornography use is emotional and sexual abuse, even if the pornography user identifies himself as an “addict”.
Abuse-by-Proxy (See “Parental Alienation”)
When abusive men continue to terrorize and attempt to control victims using the family court system, by harming the children, and utilizing other unsafe people, this is abuse-by-proxy. It’s good for victims to notify authorities about emotional, psychological, physical, or sexual abuse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.
Depending on the state and local system, the way you report may be more effective if you report through the Domestic Violence Shelter in your area or if a doctor or teacher reports in.
Abusers may manipulate others into extending their abuse (abuse-by-proxy) by:
Claiming “parental alienation”
Sabotaging shared children’s relationships with therapists, teachers, doctors, etc.
Refusing to co-parent in a healthy, constructive way
Inserting themselves into the victim’s personal life
Continuously bringing the victim to court
Threatening or actually involving CPS or law enforcement simply to terrorize the victim
Attempting to convince (gaslight) the children that the victimized parent is unhealthy, abusive, and/or in any way a less desirable parent than the abuser
Neglecting the basic emotional and physical needs of the children
Abusive Patterns
Abusers skillfully keep their victims in (a cycle) patterns of emotional, social, and psychological entrapments. That make escape seem impossible and the abuse difficult to detect. These patterns can include the following phases:
Manipulation (psychological and emotional abuse) – attentive, kind, helpful, apologetic, promises to seek help, admits there is a problem in the relationship
Tension (psychological and emotional abuse) – any behavior from the victim that the abuser sees as offensive. Including the partner asking the abuser to seek treatment for the abuse he admitted to when he used manipulative kindness. This creates resentment, which builds up
Overt abuse – physical (punching walls, screaming in your face), sexual (pornography use, soliciting prostitutes, sexting), verbal (name calling, avoiding questions), emotional (manipulating emotions), psychological (gaslighting, lying), financial, spiritual
Denial (psychological abuse)– gaslighting; minimizing; victim-blaming; bold-faced lying; turning friends and family against the victim
Not all abusive episodes go through these phases. For example, lies to deceive are ongoing, and a form of coercive control over a wife.
Accountable
Recognizing and accepting full responsibility for thoughts, feelings, perceptions, choices, etc., and the outcomes of those actions and choices.
Accountability
Taking responsibility for actions by acknowledging the abuse, working diligently to change behavior, and doing the incredibly hard work to make amends by continuous actions. An abuser’s wife and/or children are never responsible for any aspect of the abuser’s decisions or behaviors. She cannot cause, cure, or control it.
Long-term accountability (current research indicates 3-5 years) can be a sign of change for the abuser. However, short-term bursts of accountability are manipulation used to trap the victim.
Acting Out
Abusers who identify themselves as “sex addicts” “act out” when they commit infidelity against their wife whether with another living person, themselves (through masturbation), virtually, or through fantasy. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery , we see any acting out as abuse.
Addict Brain Or Addict Fog
In the CSAT community, Addict Brain/Fog refers to a period of emotional withdrawal or overt emotional or psychological abuse by the abuser, directed toward his partner and/or children. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we view withholding truth, affection, attention, and focus from his wife and/or children to use pornography or have an affair. As extremely destructive emotional and psychological abuse.
Attachment Therapy
This form of therapy causes secondary trauma to victims of abuse, because it blames the victim. The theory contends his abuse is due to attachment issues, so a healthy attachment could cure him. Marriage counseling and/or therapy are detrimental when abuse is present, because abuse renders someone too dangerous for attachment. A victim who attempts to attach to an abuser will only end up being harmed.
Transferring fault to another person to avoid accountability. Blaming another person for the abuse or compulsive sexual behaviors. For example, saying, “If you wouldn’t do ____, then I wouldn’t look at pornography/hire prostitutes/yell at you.”
Boundaries
Boundaries are the pathway to safety and the most powerful form of self-care. It is the most proactive action a victim can take. Boundaries are essential to healing; they enable women to safely care for themselves, because they are safely removed from abuse. Boundaries are not words. They are actions to keep a woman safe. They do not need to be stated to take action.
A practice recommended by CSATS, other pornography addiction professionals, and clergy. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we don’t recommend checking in with a psychological abuser about his abuse, whether in person, over the phone, or in writing, since it only serves as an opportunity for the abuser to manipulate his victim.
Coach
Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s coaches provide professional support and offer insight, validation, and direction for wives of pornography users and sex addicts. All of our coaches have been through it, are trained by BTR.ORG, and are certified.
Codependency
A label sometimes put on victims of abuse to encourage taking some level of responsibility for the situation. This model is false and negates the reality of abuse.
Crazy-Making
See Gaslighting.
Detachment
Detachment occurs when the wife of an abuser removes herself emotionally from the devastation of the abuser’s choices. Often, this takes place once she has separated from him, and the manufactured relational tethers have begun to disintegrate.
Discovery
When a husband’s previously undisclosed sexually perverse behavior is discovered. This is most often a traumatic, shocking, and/or sometimes dangerous event for the woman. It can be discovered without any warning, or it may be suspected and D-Day (Discovery Day) confirms it.
The Drama Triangle is a psychological theory often presented to couples in troubled relationships. The application of this theory blames both parties. However, in the abusive marriage, there is no Drama Triangle: there is simply an abuser and his victim.
The abuser will use all three roles in the Drama Triangle (victim, rescuer, and persecutor) to control and harm his wife. When she reacts to his abuse, he labels her and/or poorly trained “professionals” as any of those three roles (victim, rescuer, or persecutor), when in reality, she’s simply an abuse victim trying to survive. Using the Drama Triangle to describe the relational dynamics of an abusive marriage is like trying to diagnose cancer using a cheese grater. It simply makes no sense.
A state in which a person can be open and vulnerable with another person. Several factors play into being emotionally safe. When a victim is being manipulated with kindness, she often feels emotionally safe, even though she isn’t.
Emotional safety happens when you feel loved, adequate, and safe to share your feelings. Your husband sees you as an equal, worthy of his love and respect.
Emotional Affair
When your husband spends his emotional energy, time and attention on someone other than you, gaslighting you to protect his behavior.
Empathy
A powerful tool to connect with others, respect an individual’s situation, and sit with them in their pain, rather than trying to fix or lecture. When we feel empathy for another, we acknowledge and/or validate their pain as we place ourselves in their situation. Empathy is the ability to recognize and respond to another’s pain, taking responsibility for your part in causing that pain (only if appropriate).
Empathy can also be a torturous tool in the arsenal of an abusive man, used to tell his wife that she is not empathetic if she does not condone his behavior. Or if she is hurt by the things he did in “the past”, even if the past wasn’t very long ago at all or he’s still doing it.
Enable
To enable is to give someone permission to continue doing something. Those who do not immediately support and believe the victim are, accidentally or intentionally, enabling the abuser.
Fantasy/Fantasizing
The practice of using stored images of sexually perverse activities in his mind involving other people, pornography, movies, or made up scenarios. Including his own wife or children, resulting in sexual pleasure or arousal with or without masturbation.
Faulty Core Beliefs
Deeply held beliefs that are not true. For example, we may have come to believe early in our life that we need to earn love, are unlovable, or somehow caused this trauma and pain ourselves. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches are trained to help you rediscover your self-worth.
A tool using lies by abusers to harm their victims. They psychologically manipulate to distort reality, causing a feeling of craziness, also referred to as crazy-making.
Grief
A feeling of profound sadness and loss. After discovery, the woman experiences stages of grief due to the fact that the world she lived in is essentially gone and replace with something irrecognizable. To fully heal, a traumatized woman must allow herself to grieve. Through her grief, a victim of abuse can find ways to grow.
Gut/Intuition
Abusers seek to silence the inner voice of their victims, also called the gut, or intuition. The inner voice that warns victims when something isn’t quite right. Listen to that voice: it will tell you when you are in physical, emotional, psychological, or sexual danger. Research has shown that the intuition of women in abusive relationships is almost always correct.
Honoring Emotions
Women honor their emotions when they recognize, name, and respond to those emotions as they occur. Women in abusive relationships may have a difficult time naming or even expressing emotions due to the type of coercive control they experience.
Self-validation is key to successful emotional honoring and mitigating emotional denial. That may lead to a lack of safety. It occurs by recognizing that what we feel is real. And to be willing to learn from the emotion, rather than pushing it down to avoid the pain. We can honor other’s emotions by respecting that our life and emotional and psychological safety are our responsibility. And we need to take action to protect ourselves.
Infidelity
Behavior or circumstance when a husband is unfaithful, undisclosed sexual behaviors, including pornography use, masturbation, fantasizing, sex with others, and emotional affairs constitute infidelity and are therefore abuse.
Lust
An intense desire to satisfy physical appetite. A form of infidelity, if directed towards a person outside of an exclusive relationship, such as marriage. Sexual abuse occurs in marriage and committed relationships when the abuser treats his wife like an object to satisfy his sexual desires.
Manufactured Emotional Tether
As part of the abuse pattern cycle, the abuser comforts his wife after a period of excruciating emotional/psychological/sexual/physical abuse. And the comforting and promises, often including intense sexual “intimacy”, culminate in an emotional tether, trapping the victim. Every time the cycle reoccurs, the manufactured tether gets stronger.
While an abuser may claim he feels “close” to his partner, he is deceptively using/misrepresenting the idea of “closeness”. One cannot be “close” or “intimate” with someone they are abusing. The manufactured tether creates a false deceptive relational experience for the victim, entrapping her in the coercive tactics of the abuser. Generally, the manufactured tether cannot be broken without a period of separation.
Minimizing
Abusers who use emotional abuse, pornography, emotional affairs, sexting, etc, minimize their behaviors by:
Lying: denying pornography use when you know he’s using.
Justifying: “Guys do pornography all the time, what’s your problem?” Or “it was just pornography, not an actual affair.”
Rationalizing: “It just popped up on my screen.”
Blame-shifting: “I turned to pornography/affair because you don’t meet my sexual needs.”
Multi-Dimensional Partner Trauma Model
The framework used by so-called betrayal trauma specialists, namely therapists and coaches. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we have observed that this model does not address pornography, lies about pornography use, etc. as abuse.
Narcissistic Behaviors
Patterns of behavior that may include self-centeredness, an apparent, desperate need for attention, refusal to offer empathy, or grandiose ideas of self.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t diagnose because we are not therapists. Even if we were, abuse is not in the DSM. However, we help women recognize the patterns of behavior commonly deployed by abusive men, most exhibit narcissistic traits.
No Contact
A boundary that eliminates contact between the abuser and the victim. It can include blocking phone calls, texts and emails. To learn more about strategies for eliminating contact with abusers, enroll in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
Objectify
Any activity that degrades other human beings to the status of an object. This includes activities of pornography, strip club attendance, sexual behaviors with prostitution, sex with self, affairs, fantasizing, identifying people by body parts and appearance, rather than personality traits and strengths.
When abusers claim “parental alienation” and courts generally side with the abusers. Victims and their children are re-traumatized via the secondary abuse from the courts. This is known as abuse-by-proxy.
Primary Attachment
Attachment to a person in your life who is a significant source of comfort and assistance i.e. parent, caregiver or spouse.
Protective Action
When victims display behaviors that are not consistent with their character due to the abuse, they may be taking protective action. Betrayal Trauma Recovery uses this term instead of “reactive” or “mutual” abuse. We also call this Resistance to Abuse.
The spectrum of post-separation abuse is wide, but can include:
Continued gaslighting, manipulation, lies, and coercion
Refusal to meet the children’s physical and emotional needs during their parenting time
Financial abuse through continuous litigation
Defamation
Abuse-by-proxy
Voyeurism
Threats
Stalking
Physical violence
Pornography
Any material, written or visual, used to arouse sexual feelings in a person. It is also used to satisfy sexual desires and is a tool used to degrade humans into sexual objects. Furthermore, pornographic material is often created using underage girls and women sold into sex slavery. To support the pornography industry is to support child sex slavery/sex trafficking.
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we firmly stand behind the truth that all human beings who view pornography are choosing to support an industry that fuels modern day child slavery. We find this despicable. Likewise, we do not parse out pornography to levels such as soft or hard. Any image, digital, print or visualized used in secret for personal satisfaction is abusive to the marriage relationship. And those forced to participate in its making.
Rationalizing
Attempting to justify or explain a behavior to make it appear logical. For example, “I didn’t do anything wrong; it just popped up on my screen.” Or “I wouldn’t yell at you if you didn’t get so crazy.” Any attempt to justify his behaviors based on circumstance or on the behaviors/feelings of the abuser’s partner and/or children is rationalizing and is abusive.
Recovery (For Victims)
Healthy, recovered women have chosen to seek safety from an abusive relationship. They know that they are not the problem.
Recovery (For Abusers)
At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t believe a man needs a program to stop being abusive. He just needs to start being honest, treat his wife as an equal, take her concerns seriously, stop trying to control outcomes, etc. Actually, he needs to change his character through consistent, healthy behaviors over time. Any one can do this if they choose.
Healthy, recovered men have not been abusive for at least 3-5 years, which includes being completely faithful to their wife if married, having dedicated their lives to living amends, and contributing in a healthy way to a peaceful society. If their wife pursued divorce, then the man in recovery from abuse happily pays child support and alimony.
He is supportive in whatever way his ex-wife has requested, and is supportive of her boundaries. When/if she decides to engage in a new marriage, he continues these supportive behaviors. Without relapsing into abusive behaviors toward his ex-wife and/or children.
Relapse
A term used in the so called “sex addiction” community to describe abuse.
Safety & Truth-Seeking Behaviors
Abusers often throw their victims under the bus by mislabeling their safety seeking and truth seeking behaviors as “policing”, “controlling”, or “wearing the pants”. Safety seeking and truth seeking behavior by a victim is a natural, normal healthy response to abuse.
Examples of safety and truth-seeking behaviors include: putting filters on devices, checking phone, tablet, and computer histories, using GPS tracking to monitor where he is going, etc. When a victim of abuse knows something is wrong, she’s going to naturally try to figure it out – this is healthy. Sometimes this truth seeking behavior actually gets in the way of seeking safety. Learn more about this in The Living Free Workshop.
Self-Care
Tools to help in the healing process. In betrayal trauma, self-care refers to more than just getting a pedicure and crying on the shoulder of a trusted friend. Self-care is a choice a woman makes to learn to love herself. A woman using self-care understands that no one can take better care of herself than she can. It is one of the most loving things she can do for herself.
Practicing living in the moment (mindfulness and/or meditation)
Expressing gratitude
Shame
Everyone feels shame from time to time, especially when they violate widely regarded social norms. Contrary to popular belief, shame does not cause addiction or abuse. All people feel shame, but not everyone chooses to be unfaithful or abuse someone. For example, some people choose to call a friend, eat ice cream, or go for a jog.
Shero
The preferred term at Betrayal Trauma Recovery for a woman who has chosen to seek safety from an abusive relationship.
Slip
Like the term “relapse,” a slip is a reference used in the so-called “sex addiction” community to describe abuse without saying the word abuse.
Sober/Sobriety
A term used in the “sex addiction” community for the period where compulsive sexual behavior has stopped. Because they don’t call it abuse, they don’t factor in healthy non-abusive behavior when they talk about sobriety from “pornography addiction”.
STBX
Soon-to-be ex-husband.
Trauma
Abuse creates deep wounds. Trauma is the resulting emotional state created by the wounds. Betrayal trauma has a multi-dimensional impact, with emotional, physical, spiritual, and financial effects. When a woman discovers the reality of her situation, her husband is abusive. She needs emotional and psychological safety before she can begin healing. Traumatized women often experience a wide range of thoughts and emotions, and respond to abuse in different ways.
A trigger is an experience that causes a person to recall a traumatic memory. It will throw the person experiencing it back into the emotions of the initial traumatic event, often producing additional trauma responses. After betrayal, symptoms such as confusion, sadness, grief, anger, despair, and resentment may manifest. Sometimes the trigger can be noticed, like being yelled at by someone, and sometimes it sneaks up and sabotages walking down an aisle at the grocery store.
It is important to be aware that what others may call a trigger is actually just a normal response to experiencing abuse in real time. If you are triggered, rather than assume the danger has passed, assess the situation to see if emotional and psychological abuse is currently harming you.
Vulnerability
Not something to share with an abuser. Sharing emotions and experiences with safe people is key to beginning the journey to safety. Learn more about this by enrolling in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.
White-Knuckling
A term used in the “sex addiction” community to identify a “struggle” with behavior or emotional management that’s really just abuse. Most often used in the past-tense to describe his state of being before he re-engaged in abusive behaviors. Which we know at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is simply a manipulation stage of managing his image and role playing healthy behaviors to groom his victim.
Why THIS Is the Best Way to Leave a Narcissist Husband
Dec 07, 2021
Leaving a narcissistic husband is a brave and difficult thing to do. It’s not just about ending your marriage—it’s about escaping lies and manipulation. If you’re looking for the best way to leave a narcissist husband, here are 4 important things to know.
How To Leave Your Narcissistic Husband
1. Nothing is Wrong with You—It’s Not Your Fault
The first thing to know is none of this is your fault. A narcissistic husband thrives on making you feel like everything bad happening in the relationship is your fault. He’ll manipulate you into thinking you’re the problem.
However, you’re likely experiencing many of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. So take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out all the ways he emotionally harmed you.
But here’s the truth—no matter what he says, you didn’t cause his behavior, and you’re not responsible for fixing him. His narcissistic behavior is a choice.
Best Way To Leave Narcissist Husband
2. Communication Won’t Help
If you’ve spent countless hours trying to explain your feelings or set boundaries, only to be met with denial, deflection, or outright anger. Then you already know this—talking to a narcissist doesn’t work.
Narcissists don’t try to solve problems or see things from your point of view. Instead, they use conversations to trick you, shift the blame, or make you doubt yourself.
Protect yourself from him exploiting your energy by focusing on creating a life of peace. To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to the #1 Betrayal Trauma Podcast.
https://youtube.com/shorts/XNDt0TDEShg
3. Don’t Get Others Involved Thinking They’ll “Talk Sense” Into Him
Many women think it’s a good idea to ask friends or family to talk to their narcissist husband and try to make him understand. At first, this might seem like a smart plan. However, involving other people can go wrong when dealing with a narcissist.
Here’s why—it’s likely he will try to trick them, just like he tricked you. Narcissists are very good at acting like the “good guy” to others. At the same time, they may try to make you seem unreasonable, too emotional, or even silly.
Trying to get others on your side will leave you feeling even more isolated.
Leaving a narcissist is not as simple as packing a bag and walking out the door. Narcissists will do everything in their power to maintain control over you, even after you leave. That’s why having a clear, thoughtful strategy is critical.
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop will give you step by step instructions. It will help you see exactly what’s going on, so you can anticipate what he’ll do next. It will also give you thought, communication, and boundary strategies.
Remember, you don’t have to do this alone. There are people and resources ready to help you every step of the way.
You Are Powerful
Leaving a husband who is a narcissist isn’t just about leaving him. It’s about keeping yourself safe, so he can’t hurt you anymore. It’s about building a future where you don’t feel scared all the time.
So take it one step at a time—use the Living Free Strategies to focus on what you can do today. If you’re still unsure how to start, visit Betrayal Trauma Recovery to find a supportive community for women experiencing narcissistic abuse.
Transcript: The Best Way to Leave a Narcissist Husband
Anne: It’s just me today. Many women are searching for the best way to leave a narcissist husband.
Because everyone is different. There are the best strategies to use. And these strategies can be applied in different situations with different women’s personalities, and also the different narcissist personalities. So even though it might not look the same for everyone, there is definitely a best way to leave your narcissist husband, by applying specific strategies.
A Glimpse into the Past
Anne: And I’m going to be vulnerable today and share with you a recording I did years and years ago. Kind of praying into the universe that God would help me. And he definitely came through. It took so much longer than I thought. Everything I’ve developed over the years came straight from him. Certainly, it did not come from therapists, clergy or anyone else.
I have a master’s degree in education. And since this recording, I have interviewed over 300 victims of betrayal trauma. And I started educating women about the patterns I’ve seen through all my interviews. What I know now is the best way to leave a narcissist husband. And my hope is that through my harrowing experience of figuring these things out, I can save you all those years of absolute chaos and pain.
So here is this recording of my voice long ago. I was so terrified of my narcissist husband when I made the recording, so I altered my voice. I was trying to document what was happening to me and move forward with faith. If you listen to this ancient recording and relate, know that there’s a light at the end of the tunnel for you too. Okay, here we go.
Recording of Anne Years Ago
Anne when she was Anon: As a wife, trying to support her husband through addiction. Most of the discussion about this, therapists or others try to help women deal with an addict husband. Like let us help you manage this. Just learning to cope with the fact that your husband is causing you a lot of pain and so much trauma in your life.
Although my husband cheated on me. I didn’t even know what that meant. So I’m working on a solution to this problem. Not knowing what it will look like or where it will lead me. Often I’m in tears, trauma, and so much emotional pain. Sometimes I pray and pray and pray and pray and still feel I’m getting nowhere. The trauma is too intense and I don’t know how to get my husband out. In that place of brokenness, I’m just hoping God will help me.
In fact, I’m crying and desperate, hopeless. But I know that God’s working in my life. God has his own way and his own time. And I don’t know how it works. I don’t know how to set boundaries. he does it. But setting boundaries and focusing on my own recovery has invited God into my life. I can’t learn how to do it unless I’m actually doing it. A lot of pain has brought me to this point and God. God, thank you. I don’t understand how you work, but I know you’re leading me. And God, I hope I never have to go through anything like this again.
The Best Way to Leave a Narcissist Husband: Finding Hope & Solutions
Anne: So there’s that recording. Subsequently through trial and error, trying all the things everyone else suggested and having that, not work for me. Then I was inspired by God to discover the Living Free strategies. I used them, they worked. And if nothing else has worked for you. These strategies might be what you’ve been missing. To learn more about the Living Free Strategies, click this link.
Me Too Examples – Jasmine’s Story
Nov 30, 2021
The Me Too movement brought many me too examples to light. Women are sharing me too examples from within the walls of their own homes.
The #MeToo movement shined a light on countless instances of abuse and harassment once shrouded in silence. While much of the movement exposed misconduct in workplaces and public spaces, some of the most hidden abuses take place within the walls of women’s homes. For many, the abuser is not a stranger or colleague, but their own husband.
To discover if you’re a victim of your husband’s emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz.
Understanding Me Too Examples at Home
When the Me Too movement gained momentum, it became a platform for women to share their deeply personal stories. Among these stories, many began detailing the abuse they faced in their marriages—abuse that fits firmly into the scope of #MeToo. These stories highlight the abuse of power and betrayal of trust, themes at the core of the movement.
Jasmine’s Me Too Example
Take, for instance, Jasmine, a woman who bravely stepped forward to share how her husband’s betrayal is one of the me too examples. Jasmine recalls how her husband used manipulation and control to blur the lines of consent in their relationship.
For years, she endured coercion and gaslighting, feeling trapped and isolated without a clear path forward. Sharing her story within the Me Too movement was Jasmine’s first step toward reclaiming her voice.
Her courage not only brought her hope, but it also connected her to a community of women who had experienced similar betrayal. “I found strength in knowing I wasn’t alone,” Jasmine says. “I heard and gained clarity from women’s stories, and needed to recognize what I had endured for years.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q9MGo_vv8I
Me Too Examples Bring Hope to Victims
One of the most powerful outcomes of the Me Too movement is the hope and healing it offers victims. Sharing stories of abuse—whether in the workplace, public spaces, or at home—helps women break the silence that often perpetuates shame and isolation.
Listening to others and being validated in your pain empowers victims to focus on personal safety and regain control of their lives. Knowing they are not alone can provide the hope needed to take difficult but necessary steps forward.
Me Too Examples Bring Healing
By speaking up about betrayal and relational abuse with safe people, women begin to feel hope.
Movements like #MeToo have allowed women to redefine what abuse looks like, especially in a marital context. Relational abuse within marriage is often brushed aside as “normal” relationship issues. But survivors can now distinguish manipulation, coercion, and betrayal as the serious forms of abuse they are.
Movements Like Me Too Can Inspire Change
Beyond individual healing, the Me Too examples and movement creates necessary dialogue around societal reform. It highlights the gaps in understanding and addressing abuse, particularly when it occurs in intimate relationships. Movements like #MeToo educate other women about what sexual coercion is in any context, even marriage.
Organizations like Betrayal Trauma Recovery (BTR.ORG) have risen to the occasion, providing tools, workshops, and a supportive community for women navigating #metoo in their own homes.
By enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, she took steps toward emotional, psychological, and sexual safety in her own home. She learned how to set boundaries, protect herself, and rebuild her life after betrayal.
For women like Jasmine, finding a supportive community and expert-guided tools is not just healing—it’s life-changing.
What to Do If You’re Experiencing Abuse at Home
If your husband’s behavior leaves you feeling manipulated, controlled, or unsafe, know that you’re not alone—and there are resources available to help.
The Me Too movement has given countless women the courage to say, “Enough is enough.” Whether you’ve experienced harassment at work or abuse within your marriage, your story matters. Sharing it may become the first step in your healing process.
If you’re unsure where to start or feel overwhelmed by your current situation, start your own metoo movement, consider exploring the resources at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. (btr.org)
Transcript: Me Too Examples
Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Jasmine. She wanted to share just a tiny bit of her story. She’s kind of nervous. So, welcome Jasmine.
Jasmine: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.
Anne: So you noted to me that you were nervous, but wanted to share. Talk to me about your desire to share at this point in your life.
Jasmine: It’s actually been something that I’ve thought about off and on. But honestly, what prompted me to bite the bullet was the expansion of the Me Too movement, just seeing so many women’s stories of men in power betraying them, whether within the family, within acquaintances and friendships at school and work.
I’m seeing more and more often women who deal with violation and betrayed within relationships. And as I heard more and more women’s stories. I started to see that wow, there are a lot of women dealing with the pain and wounds, and have kept it to themselves. And are now feeling emboldened and empowered to share their stories.
Because the focus was on the men a lot, as the Me Too examples and movement was going on exposing these men and power. And it’s great for us to do that, because it needs to be brought to the light. But my heart is for the survivors. And so I was wondering, all of these women walking around wounded, how can I help? Because I have that story dealing with that severe betrayal.
The Importance of a Healing Plan
Anne: Yeah, I’m so grateful that you brought up the Me Too examples and movement. It applies for women who are victims of their loved one’s abuse. It’s so important, because they’re dealing with that type of abuse daily. You talk about having a plan for healing.
Jasmine: Anytime we don’t have a plan, we plan to fail. That’s one of my favorite sayings. And that applies in almost every area of life, whether it’s our exercise regimen, our diet, or whatever goal we’re trying to reach.
If we have a plan, we have a higher likelihood of succeeding in it. Many of us don’t take it as seriously, as we ought to, in the process of healing. After experiencing a wound within the relationship, the acute pain goes away. Because that’s something that we can’t ignore when it’s acute, when it’s something we’re dealing with and struggling with every day. It’s hard to ignore. Sometimes the pain fades a little, and then we feel like we’re healed.
Anne: And creating a plan is harder than it looks. Sometimes my plan was like “eat Cheetos.” I was in so much trauma that I couldn’t think of a plan. It was like, watch Netflix and try to get my bed made. It was so hard, so having a network of support, having someone walk you through that process, is important
Jasmine: Sure, so reviewing is where we actually, even if it’s uncomfortable, look back on what we’ve experienced. I thought about how when we are in grade school, right? For instance, when the teacher would give us a, what we call a review, so she would give us a review to show us what’s important.
Reviewing Past Experiences
Jasmine: What should we take away from this? What is important to commit to memory? What can we learn from the me too examples? And what can we afford to forget or throw away? And so I think that is the same thing. We need to do with our wounds, we have to look at, well what do I need to extract from this experience in my life?
What should I commit to memory so that I can use them for future tests I might encounter in my life? See if we have some things that our abusers or the people who wounded us might have told us over and over. And we’ve begun to believe them. Just kind of going through and extracting what we need to keep and what we can afford to throw away. That process is sometimes uncomfortable, so we might skip over it. But I think it’s important to help us.
I started realizing how much the word value often resonates within the mind and heart of a survivor. Because that is many times what’s attacked the most. Our sense of value of ourselves, worth, stories, even our future, because of what we’ve gone through being wounded.
And I realized that my value was what was most attacked. But what happens to us doesn’t dictate our worth. I started to realize that even though it’s painful. It’s the crushing moments in our lives that actually extract our value. Because it shows us our true worth when we can recover from it. And even become stronger, wiser, and better. Just like an olive, for instance, when it’s crushed, that’s the only way the oil, which is more valuable, can be extracted.
The Long Journey to Healing
Jasmine: It has to be crushed. Sometimes that’s what happens when we’re wounded is we’re crushed, but in our healing process, we can begin to see our true value.
Anne: I’ve seen that with my own healing process, and it’s a long-term deal. It’s not something that we can just think, okay I’ll check these things off my list. And in the next month or two, I’m going to be better. I think the reason why it takes a long time to heal is because it’s the process of growth.
Jasmine: Absolutely, it’s a day by day thing. Many times it takes years to truly heal from the devastating things that we go through. And just that process of every day working towards your healing and being intentional about your recovery. That’s how you win, redeem, and ensure that your pain turns into something purposeful in the future.
Yeah, it’s been a long process. It’s been a journey. It’s about eventually getting to that place where you reclaim your voice. Which happened with the me too examples. And you shout within yourself for a while, but eventually you can begin to shout to others. I’m a survivor, and yes, I’ve been wounded, hurt and betrayed, but honestly, they don’t dictate my value.
Anne: Jasmine, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today.
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