Show notes
I had the chance to interview Brad Meltzer, the writer behind DC’s best-selling Identity Crisis, on his latest works, I Am Superman and I Am Batman as part of his new Stories That Change the World. You can hear our full conversation Comic Book Herald’s “Creannotators,” on the podcast. But since some people prefer the ancient art of “reading,” we’ve also transcribed the interview below, talking with Brian and Andre about making the graphic novel. The transcription has been slightly edited for clarity. Read and enjoy! CBH: Thanks so much for joining, Brad Meltzer. It’s a pleasure having you hear on the Comic Book Herald podcast. I want to talk to you about I Am Batman and I Am Superman, new books you’ve got out today. First questions for you, you have the Ordinary Heroes, the Heroes That Change the World, People That Change the World books with Chris Eliopoulos, an amazing artist, we’re now switching to Stories That Change the World with Batman and Superman and then Wonder Woman upcoming next, I think. What sparked the transition from ordinary heroes to comic book heroes? Meltzer: You know, I can give you this beautifully bloated answer about how we just felt like after giving kids real heroes, we want to unlock the power of their imagination and show them what fictional heroes can do, and that’s all true, but just bluntly honest, we love these heroes and we love these stories. And Chris and I feel like if you don’t know the story of Superman and Batman and of course Wonder Woman also, who’s coming, we feel that that’s as much a part of the American Dream and the idea of what it means to be a good person as teaching them Abraham Lincoln, as teaching them Amelia Earheart or anyone else that we’ve done. And obviously we clearly understand that a few of those are real and a few of those are imaginary, but as anyone who grew up on comics knows, comics are a place for those of us when we were younger who were searching for something. I find it over and over again with my fellow comic readers and I can give you and say “oh my gosh, reading about Abraham Lincoln taught me to be a good person,” but that was when I was an adult. When I was a kid, my morality was you know, people want to say “oh, I read the great books and I read the Bible” you know what kids read and what I read growing up was I read comic books and I learned to be a good person by Ma and Pa Kent the same way Clark Kent did and I learned determination from a guy who had nothing more than a kid and a utility belt and had no powers. And those stories, as imaginary as they were, gave me those values that are the core parts of who I am. And we felt like “how do we not do that” and the truth was we were like “how do we do it?” and then we were all like “wait a minute, we can do it that way. Let’s make ordinary people change the world become stories that change the world.” And here we are. CBH: Very cool. Very cool. No, I definitely connect with that as a long time comics fan. And I think it makes a lot of sense. You know, one thing I really like here is that you have these books, they’re kids books about the histories and distilling it, but you have this amazing art from Chris Eliopoulos, certainly as an adult I can appreciate and enjoy that, and enjoy the distillation, I really like how you have the creator history in here. The focus on Bill Finger, the shout out to Jerry Robinson, right? Making sure the creators are credited as well. I’m curious. When you’re distilling these creations, and their now 80 years of history down to a fairly short overview, what do you find to be the most important element for that approach? Meltzer: You know, it’s funny when I first got hired by DC comics, Paul Levitz sat me down–like at the big boss’s office–Paul Levitz ran it. You know, those of us who grew up on Paul Levitz’s Legion of Superheroes or other things, it was like going to the Godfather. And I actually forget, I think it was either him or Dan DiDio who told me this, but I think it was Paul, they’ll of course tell me when I get it wrong, but they said to me there’s three types of continuity. There’s continuity that can’t be changed, right? Superman comes from Krypton, he lands in Smallville, they raise him. You know, Batman, his parents die in an alleyway. It can’t be changed. It’s immutable. CBH: Yeah. Meltzer: And obviously, you can have imaginary stories. You can have all the exceptions, but you know. That’s one kind of continuity. The other kind of continuity is, you know, there’s stories that you like, that you prefer, and then there’s bad stories. And we ignore those. You know? It sounds silly and almost trite, but it’s actually right and that’s how it is. We all want to say “oh my gosh, you better look at the continuity,” but there’s things that don’t make sense! I mean, Batman used to run around with a gun and shoot people! And you’re just like “okay, not anymore. We’re not doing that anymore.” And so for me, what I tried to do was go to the purest version of the character that I like! And I guarantee you that if you wrote your version, you’d have a couple different things, but I really do–we joke that these books are for kids, but they’re for me as adults. They’re for you as an adult. It’s me writing the origin of Batman and me writing the origin of Superman. I would have written it not a single word different if they asked me to do it for adults. They just might not have had Chris’s incredible art on it, and that’s what will make it appealing for kids, but we really went out there and tried to find the best of it. And you’ll see some nods to great moments in comics. There’s nods to Year One in Batman, there’s nods to Man of All Seasons or, you know, other stories that I love from Superman and some of them are just my own changes that are in there and then there’s a Superman movie that’s in there and there’s one part of one Batman movie that’s in there but not all of them, you know? I’m just picking and choosing the ones I like, and I know one thing: I’m not that special. And if I like that one, and I’m pretty sure those are the ones. And it’s funny. I went on my Twitter account before I started writing each book and I said “hey everyone, what’s your favorite scenes and favorite moments from Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman?” just to see if everyone’s match mine. See what I was forgetting, see what I was leaving out. And I’m telling you, nothing was different. Everyone had the same ones. They were like “yeah those are the best ones.” We all know. “What are the best moments?” these are the best moments. CBH: Yeah, no. It’s really interesting how that–because I did notice that, especially in the Batman one, right? You have the famous Batman-falls-down-the-well scene and the quote about “so we can get back up,” right? And obviously, the Chris Nolan movieverse inspiring that, but then so many other comic references throughout. Seeing Chris Eliopoulos do the super cute little boy Batman do Frank Miller Year One? Seeing him do Frank Miller-David Mazzucchelli Year One? That was an absolute treat. Meltzer: Oh! By the way, can I just talk about that? CBH: Yes! Please. Meltzer: It was so funny that when Chris first did it, it was horrifying because he did it exactly like Mazzucchelli did it! And that’s what I asked for in the script! I said “we’re doing Year One here. The Year One version is the best version. I want to do it like this.” And I literally said to him “draw the bat how Mazzucchelli draws the bat.” And his bat is horrifying. It’s one of the few ones–you know, even when I was little and a bat flew through the window, I was like “does that really inspire you?” and it wasn’t until you see Mazzucchelli’s that you’re like…and I think Miller’s too did a beautiful job of it…it’s terrifying, it’s scaring, and that’s why it inspires you. And we all know the kind of really fearful things that get under our skin forever and so Chris draws this horrifying creature of the night that comes through the glass, and we’re all like “oh, we can’t do this. Children will by crying.” So he gave us a much better, palatable bat. CBH: It’s super fun. Like the “yes, Father. I shall become a bat” with the smiling. Meltzer: With a smile on his face. I know. I love it! It’s like a devious little thing! And it’s the funny thing that you mentioned the movies. You know, actually, I’m a comic guy. I don’t love the movies when it comes to the origins. I usually don’t. At least on the Batman side. Like even the best Batman versions in the movies, I think they’re the ones that just reproduce Year One. That’s what I really think. It’s the ones that do it just like Miller wanted to do it and Mazzucchelli did it. And oddly that was the one little moment I did think–when I was in the movie, I always think that comics is this, I always say to my kids this, it’s Darwinism in comics. And if an idea is good enough, it will bleed into comics. The same way, you know, Superman flying didn’t come from the comics. It came from radio and then people were like “that’s a good idea” and then they pulled it into the comics and suddenly it’s good enough or making Nick Fury look and sound like Samuel Jackson, right? Like, Mark Miller and Hitch were like “yeah, let’s do that” and it was so good that it actually happened and then it was so good in the movies that it happened backwards into the comics! Like, Darwinism literally took over and made this incredible thing happen and I feel like that was the one moment from the movies, that to me, deserved to be in the comics. This having that..we never know about Bruce’s relationship with his parents. We don’t really know much about Bruce. He’s a nobody until his parents are dead. And I always loved that moment, like “you gotta get back up.” Like, that to me is the core of Batman. CBH: Yeah, yeah. I think it’s a great call and it’s also, like, I’m reading these books with my kids and I told you before we started, I’ve got three little boys under five and there’s a real emotional resonance to that moment in particular, you know? That heightens the sadness of Bruce’s story. And then I think, the one thing also, the elements that you focus on the most are Bruce’s determination and Superman’s kindness. You know? And those are the two guiding principles through these characters as you’re doing an in-brief biography, like you said. Through all this comics bibliography, through all this media bibliography, that it all kind of intersects. And even for younger readers, reading it, I was getting emotional. It was hitting! Meltzer: I can tell you, I’ve been doing this for 25 years. I watched my wife read this Superman book and she burst into tears. CBH: Yeah. Meltzer: She burst into tears reading it, and I promise you she will not be the only one. I was in tears writing it. Because that book especially, and I love the Batman book, because Batman has always just been…I was a Batman kid growing up. I was in a Batman following from every year from like 6 to 40 and the truth was, there’s something about the Superman story when you’re a parent that just cuts you to the core. Because the parents in Batmans, of course, they’re gunned down and they’re gone, but the Superman story, all of his kind–half the book as you say in I Am Superman when we do it–half the book is Smallville. And if you don’t understand Smallville, you don’t understand Superman and it means that I was writing half the book about this kindly people who taught him the values of hard work and kindness and decency and my God is the world starving for that for my kids, and suddenly I’m not writing Superman, I’m writing the dream I had for my children. And that book became–literally, my wife was crying reading it, going “oh my gosh, this is the dream that we have for our kids that our kids can grow up, and we can’t turn our kids into superheroes, but teach our kids to be kind, for everyone to be good to everyone.” CBH: Yeah. Yeah absolutely. It definitely hit me in a similar way. It’s been a nice experience because it’s one of those things where like I’m not trying to push comics too hard on the kids, but at the same time I always want the opportunity to share some of these connections with them and these books are a good opportunity to do that, so I’ve been enjoying it in that regard. Now, I know, obviously as we’ve been talking here and you can tell you’re a big comics fan, but especially if you read your Justice League of America run, one thing I always liked about it was you’re weaving in reference after reference and so many touch points, and you kind of had the feel of “well, I don’t know if I’m going to get to do a (unclear) thing later, so let’s get in a big (unclear) reference here” and all these different things. What were your favorite deep cut references in the I Am Batman and I Am Superman books? Because you got in a couple. Meltzer: Oh I’ve got more than a couple. I feel like–someone said to me “you should have a contest to see who can even catch them all.” And there’s the obvious gimmes there’s the point where what’s so fun–and usually we have a comic book editor at DC comics–but these are published by Penguin Random House. So they’re are published by my book publisher who knows nothing about comics, so she’s the most amazing woman and edits us for Marie Curie or Rosa Parks or John Lewis or Doctor King, but now she’s got to edit Superman and Batman, so there’s this moment in Batman where he says, you know “and I’ve got all these wonderful toys” and you turn the page and there’s the Bat Cave and you see everything. All the gadgets, all the stuff, right? And so she writes, and to obviously to anyone with a brain in their head, “where did he get all those wonderful toys” is from obviously Burton’s Batman and she literally wrote “can we say ‘where do I get these wonderful gadgets?’” and I’m like “no, you’re missing the joke! I’m doing a reference here!” and like, everyone who needs to get it will get it and she can’t get it. And similarly, there’s a moment in I Am Superman where we talk about how Superman’s weaknesses are Kryptonite and magic and you see Lois Lane grab the Kryptonite rock and says “don’t worry, Superman, I’ve got you” and he says to her “you got me? Who’s got you?” and she writes to me “why is he saying ‘who’s got you?’” and I’m like “trust me. We’ve got to have the line in there.” Like, so for me I don’t think there’s a like whether Superman says “General, will you care to step outside” or any of those things? Those are what I love. I love those things where if you didn’t read it, you don’t know you’re missing it, but if you get it, you understand that this character’s not just an Easter egg because Easter eggs are cool, but because those sentiments hit me at my core when I was seven years old, and for those of us who grew up on those characters, there’s nothing like someone telling you “I’ve got you. I totally see this character like how you see this character” that to me is the fun of those little winks and nods are. CBH: Yeah, yeah. For sure. No, it’s a blast. So you’re putting these out through Penguin Random House, but obviously they’re DC characters, did you have any DC editorial oversight where they were like “oh, well, actually we have to have this reflected in the character” or any oversight like that? Meltzer: You know, I’ve been really lucky with DC. They’ve just been a family to me for almost two decades now and they’ve obviously given me their characters multiple times and they know that I don’t go out on limbs. Like, I see those characters how they see those characters, so there’s never been one thing where they came back and said “Superman better do this or has to do that” or “Batman can’t do this or can’t do that.” Nothing. The only edits that they had, understandably were “these are books now for little kids. I Am Superman and I Am Batman, and obviously you and I will enjoy them, but really for kids that are whatever, 4 to 12 years old, for about 4 years…
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