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How Do You Know When It’s Time to Blow Up Your Book? Sep 25, 2026

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Have you ever looked at a project you’ve poured years of your life into and realized… it’s fine? Not catastrophic. Not terrible. Just fine.No one wants to read a book that’s fine — and I am certain you don’t want to write one.The first step in making sure you do better than fine is to catch yourself when you know you’ve hit a wall — which is way easier said than done.We get so used to plowing ahead, getting the words down, prioritizing FINISHING that we often forget to stop and make sure we are writing what we really want to be writing. Think of that pause like checking in with your gut or your heart: do you love this?Because if you don’t love it, your readers aren’t going to love it, either.In this Write Big episode, KJ and I sit down for an honest, behind-the-scenes look at what happens when you hit a wall—and decide to set off a stick of dynamite instead of trying to climb over it. Both of us recently threw out huge portions of our current projects (my Write Big book, and KJ’s novel) to start fresh from page zero.I share the story of my 12-hour wrestling match with ChatGPT over the books subtitle (yeah — 12 hours on the subtitle), the “tough love” reality check I got from #amwriting recurring guest therapist Dr. Diana Hill, and how answering one simple question—are you actually centering your reader?—changed everything about my book’s tone, structure, and voice. Meanwhile, KJ opens up about why she threw out her protagonist, embraced a dual-timeline structure, and ignored the well-meaning advice of friends who told her NOT to keep starting over.We talk about:* How to recognize when a book is polite or timid instead of alive.* The difference between an echo chamber (which AI can sometimes be) and a true truth-teller.* A method for salvaging the gold from an abandoned draft without getting bogged down by old words.* Why starting over isn’t “falling behind”—it’s standing up for your conviction.If you’re feeling stuck, lost, or secretely suspecting your current draft needs a radical pivot, we encourage you stop playing it safe and build something alive.Let’s get back to work and finish work we LOVE.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Books Mentioned* Austin Kleon’s Steal Like an Artist* John Wooden’s books on coaching basketball* Serena Bowen’s novel: Big Stick Energy* Virginia A. Evans’s The CorrespondentTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a Write Big episode, where I bring you short conversations, this one might not be so short, about the mindset shifts that shape the work, and today I’m talking to KJ.Jennie: Hi, KJ.KJ: I’m so excited to be here. This is... Uh, you know. I’ll be here lots. This is great. Uh, the, the behind-the-scenes stuff- Is the behind the scenes stuff? KJJennie: often-KJ: And here we are just to like, you know, having a nice normal, um, a podcast, soJennie: yeah. I know. I’m so excited to talk to you and to share this conversation with our listeners, and we’re talking aboutJennie: So we’re talking about the mindset shifts that shape the work. That’s what Write Big is all about, and [00:01:00] oof, some big ones just happened for us both. Yep. Um, if you’ve been listening for a while, you know we’re both working on projects. They’re very different projects. Um, KJ’s is a novel, mine is a nonfiction book, and I just m- literally dropped a bomb on mine and totally blew it up and started in a new direction, and this is years into it, and you recently did that too, and you- I didKJ: something very similarJennie: you were shy about sharing it with me, which I thought was funny. Um- Oh. ‘Cause you were like- Yeah ... “She’s not in the book anymore.” I was asking her aboutKJ: something. That’s right. You’re like, “Oh, and this could be s- “ I, I mentioned something, and I was like, “Oh, yeah.” Yeah,Jennie: I just mentioned changes. That was when we were in person.Jennie: We, KJ and I were in person, and you know what? We didn’t take a picture.KJ: Oh my God, we didn’t. You’re right. Oh, well.Jennie: We both tra- We have aKJ: lot of things. Travel It just means we have to do it again [00:02:00] soon.Jennie: We both traveled great distances in order to have lunch and go shopping and talk about books, and we were walking and chatting about KJ’s book, and, and that’s when I learned she had blown everything up.Jennie: So how areKJ: you- We both blew things up. So I got questions. I’m sure you have questions. I have. My first question- Yeah ... you just did this, so how did you know you had to do this?Jennie: Yeah, I did it yesterday.KJ: I think that’s ... I know. I think that’s the thing that people wanna know, like, “How did you, how did you know?”KJ: Okay. “Was it gradual? Was it sudden?” Just-Jennie: Yeah ...KJ: you know, j- tell, tell us how we should know if we should do the same thing, which I already did, and I have an answer to this too, so.Jennie: Yeah, yeah.KJ: How didJennie: you know? So I was ... I had a finished manuscript, and I asked two people to read it for very particular reasons, these beta reas- readers, and they, neither of them were people that I would callJennie: They’re not the kinda typical people that I would go to. [00:03:00] They were, they were more, um, regular readers, if that makes sense. They’re, they’re not insidery people like you. I mean, you and I- Me ... have a lot of insidery, inside the industry people. These were not those people. So I had a full manuscript. I took it out to both of them.Jennie: I got feedback from both of them, and the, the first, the first person’s feedback was- Fine? It was, it was fine. It was like, “This is fine. I want more of this or that.” And it was, it was kind of like, not-KJ: Fine, huh? Great ...Jennie: not what anybody wants. Fine. I either want my reader to be like, “Oh, hell yes,” or, “I co- totally don’t get it.”Jennie: Like, I want, I don’t want fine. So that was the first thing, and then the second reader [00:04:00] said, “I ha- I got some tough love for you.” And this was happened after I was really struggling. I was trying to rewrite while they were doing the beta read, and, you know, f- with my own critique and my own next steps and my own thing, and I found myself unable to go forward because of the title.Jennie: I kept changing my mind on the title. Like, what really is this? And what, it’s particularly the subtitle. What, what am I doing? Like, after all this time, after all this time, after a million blueprints, a million conversations, a whole manuscript, I’m still asking myself, “What is the point? Who is this for?Jennie: What am I doing?” And I, when I say that I was wrestling with that, I felt that I couldn’t revise until I got it right because I, the revision now is very [00:05:00] specific. It’s not let’s just get some words down.KJ: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And so I think I spent, I mean, I’m not even exaggerating- 12 hours? I’m not kidding. Playing- No,KJ: I, I believe-Jennie: Playing with my title.Jennie: And-KJ: And you kept sending me things, and I’d be like, “Eh.”Jennie: Yeah, you were like, “Meh.” I was playing in Chat GPT- I was super helpful ... and the reason that I spent so much time was it was really fun. It was, it was like, “Well, what about this? Well, what about the other? I don’t like that word.” Like I was fighting with the machine, which I sort of enjoyed, and, and it was, it wasJennie: It says, you know, it says ridiculous things all the time. “This is your most original idea.” I’m like, “Blah.” You know? Yeah. Just I was kind of wanting to- Yeah, you,KJ: you, you can’t listen to it. No. You can only listen to what it’s making you say.Jennie: I was wrestling with my own mind. Yeah. That’s what I was doing.Jennie: Mm-hmm. And, and I would land on something, and I would think this, and I would start [00:06:00] to revise, and I’d think, “Yeah,” and then I’d send it to you. And you’d be, yeah, you’d be like, “I don’t like it,” or, “I don’t get it,” or, “Meh,” or, “No,” or whatever. And I was getting mad, not at you, but at my own self. Like, what is the matter here?Jennie: And if you’ve listened to the podcast, you heard some big revelation episodes with Andrew Perella, who’s working on his novel, where you have to step back from the wrestling to say, “Why am I wrestling so much with this? There’s something else going on here,” right? Mm-hmm. So that was kind of what was happening, and then the second beta reader- Uh, who is, has been on the podcast several times as well and, and will be in the future.Jennie: It’s therapist Diana. So therapist Diana often comes on to help us with some psychological things around writing. And- AndKJ: she has a book.Jennie: She does. She has actually three. So she was the one [00:07:00] who said, “I got some tough love for you.” And she said, “Why don’t you come over, and we’ll sit down, and I’ll, I’ll tell it to you.”Jennie: And so part of me was doing that thing that you do is, where it was like, “Oh, crap, I still have so much work to do, and, and I’m tired of this, and I don’t wanna.” And, you know, so I went into it with that sort of whiny, resistant attitude. And for, like, the first hour when she was talking to me, I had that really defensive thing of like, “You don’t get me.Jennie: You don’t get, you don’t get what I’m doing. You don’t, you’re not, you’re not in my world.” Like, I was really resistant. And then she did the coolest thing because she’s a, a therapist and a writer and all the things. She used my own system on me, and she was like, [00:08:00] “Okay, step one is why are you doing this?” And she said, “I want...Jennie: I’m gonna ask you,” I think she said, “15 times, ‘Why are you doing this?’” And we, we were walking, and so she was just go saying, “Why are you doing this?” And I was just spouting out all the things. And I got to about, I don’t know, eight, nine, and she goes, “Okay.” None of these are about the reader. These are all about you and what you want.Jennie: And, and none of these are about what you’re actually making. Is this book... Are you trying to help your readers with what you’re trying to do with this book? Like, are they in the same place you are? And I s- I had this really strong reaction, and I said, “No. What I’m struggling with around this book is, is a different problem from, from my r- my [00:09:00] reader.Jennie: I want to meet them here.” And I, and I said where I want to meet them, and what I want, how I wanted to help them, and why it was so hard to deliver that. And she was taking notes on her phone while we were walking, and then, uh, she read them back to me, and, and it was like, oh yeah, that’s the book I want to write.Jennie: That, that’s the book I want to write. Like, I, I knew it, I just wasn’t doing it. And it was, um, a whole different structure, a whole different attitude, a whole different voice and tone. And, and it really required a page zero start. So I... This was what was really cool. I, um, did not use ChatGPT. I wrote a new subtitle.Jennie: I guess I did use it, ‘cause I was wrestling with one word. I guess I did use it for this one [00:10:00] word. Um-KJ: It’s, it can be a really great thesaurus.Jennie: Yeah, yeah. And, and I sent it to you, and you said, I’m gonna keep this text for the rest of my life. You said, “I’ve already pre-ordered it.”KJ: Yeah.Jennie: I mean- YouKJ: got itJennie: It actually-KJ: I mean, you know, you might change a word or something, but, but no, that one was like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah.KJ: Okay.Jennie: Yeah. It made me wanna cry. Aw. And then I re- I wrote a new intro, totally new from scratch, which is where I had been stuck before, just like even what is this? And I, I wrote it in, like, 15 minutes, and I sent it to Diana, therapist Diana, and, um, she said, her text reply was, “F*****g awesome.”KJ: Yay.Jennie: And I was like, okay, okay.Jennie: [00:11:00] Like, two people I trust.KJ: She didn’t say, “Fine.”Jennie: Right? Two people I trust had that reaction, and when I... I wish I could find the text. Maybe I can find the text. Because when I sent it to her, this was what was so great. I do wanna find this. I’m scrolling through my texts now while we’re talking, because I said, um- New intro, just three pages.Jennie: Will you read? This is it, period. I hardly even need to ask you because I know it’s it. Like, I, it wasn’t looking for confirmation or validation. I kind of just wanted her to see. But I, I felt it was it. I knew it was it. And then I started... I can’t stop writing now. Like, I’d been so stuck, and I can’t stop writing.Jennie: I’m so fired up. I’m so excited. It feels alive and amazing. Um, it feels like butter on toast. Like, it’s just [00:12:00] smooth and easy, and I get it, and I, I, I’ve clicked in, and it, and it... This has come after, like, I tried to sell this book. You know? I mean, I went through that whole process and, and it didn’t. And now I’m so delighted that it didn’t sell, that I’m not writing that other book, that, that I get to write- YesJennie: this book. And it’s, like, such a pain in the butt really because, you know, I wanted it to be done, and I wanted it to be over- ... and I wanted to be close. And I thought I was there. Um, I had all these plans, you know, for launching and making it happen and blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, oh gosh, now I’m like six months or a year behind.Jennie: I’m using air quotes. Like, behind what? I don’t know. I mean, if I’m perfectly honest, there, there’s a colleague who has a book coming out in 2027 that I’m [00:13:00] twitchy about, and I sort of wanted to beat it. And- ... it was never gonna happen. And also, like, what is that even? What is that even? So I, yeah, I feel amazing.KJ: This is great.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel amazing.KJ: That’s, that’s fantastic. Yeah.Jennie: I, I just love it. I’m so grateful for, um, you know, the people that I have who are truth tellers, which is, you’re one of them. And youKJ: know- It is hard to find a truth teller. And I pick up so many books now, some of them by, you know, very well-known authors, and I’m like, there, there was no truth teller- RightKJ: for this person. And- I mean, I, I, yeah. You know, sometimes it’s just like, “Well, this could’ve been better,” but the- I’ve had a couple where I was like, “Wow, damn.” Like, I would’ve, I would... [00:14:00] Even though I don’t know you very well, if you’d given this to me in time, I would’ve stopped you, but-Jennie: Well, I think sometimes the more famous people get, the, the less often- I think soJennie: people will tell them the truth, and- Mm-hmm ... you have to seek that o- out your own self. And, y- you know, I’m so lucky that I have s- have, I mean, so lucky. You know, you, you’re not gonna let me get away with crap, and I don’t wanna put crap out there. Like, what I had was fine. ItKJ: wasn’t crap. It was fine. ItJennie: was fine.KJ: Mm-hmm. But- And some of it was great, was, like, inspirational, really. Helped me, and had lot... But you couldn’t, you just couldn’t nail that the subtitle was the point.Jennie: Yep. It’s so true. Yeah,KJ: and you just couldn’t, you just kept sending me, like, “Ugh.”Jennie: I know.KJ: You know? Like, like, “Oh, this is a book about...” You know, I was like, eh, just like, you know-Jennie: This is a writing bookKJ: boring thing, boring thing, colon, [00:15:00] boring thing. And it was- I know ... or, you know, like, like, “Meh thing, unexciting, dash-” “... probably okay.” I don’t know. It’s, it’s-Jennie: I know, and it, you know, this is in fact the whole write big process. I am going through the very thing I am teaching people to do. And- Mm-hmm When I, what I really understood finally is the reasonJennie: So one of the things, um, when Diana a…

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Let’s chat about Episode 523! Sep 18, 2026

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Margin Notes: Juggling Opportunities and Rewriting the Story After Mistakes Sep 18, 2026

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On the #amwriting podcast’s Margin Notes, host Jennie Nash talks with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, about how writers handle mishaps and self-talk when juggling book-related obligations. Hill describes accidentally booking two plane tickets to a Washington, DC conference, prompting a discussion about shifting the story from “I’m disorganized” to one of abundance and opportunity. Hill introduces Buddhism’s “wise speech” filters—helpful, kind, timely, and true—and distinguishes guilt (which motivates clean-up and repair) from shame (which labels the self as bad and can paralyze writers). They share examples of painful feedback and feelings of insignificance, discuss the “worldly winds” (fame/insignificance, pleasure/pain, blame/disrepute, gain/loss), and conclude that choosing to “pay the price” of a busy, opportunity-seizing life can be healthier than spiraling into blame or defensiveness.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Read Wise Effort by Dr. Diana HillTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is Margin Notes, the place in the podcast where we talk about the big decisions writers face in their work or creative lives.Jennie: And I’m here again with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, and we’re gonna talk about a really interesting reality that you and I have both noticed, Diana, which is that when you’re out there in the world with your book as a writer and you’re juggling all the things, you’re ... You have interviews, you’re putting, you know, inquiries out, you’re showing up for conferences or workshops or events or things, and sometimes things don’t always go the way that you planned.Jennie: So today you have a little experience [00:01:00] with that, which is why we’re even talking today.Diana: Well, it’s, it’s more like things don’t go the way that I plan. It’s more like I had no idea about my own plans because I’m juggling so much. Bec- I, I’m on my way to this pretty, uh, big conference in Washington, DC, and I’m going to present on a book that I wrote, uh, called I Know I Should Exercise, But: 44 Reasons Why We Don’t Move and How to Get Over Them.Diana: And I’m going to present to a bunch of researchers and therapists about this sort of model of what gets in the way of us exercising. And I open up my American Airlines app and realize I have booked myself a ticket today and a ticket tomorrow. I bought two plane tickets to this conference without any awareness that I had already bought one.Diana: And so I had to decide, am I gonna go tomorrow or gonna go today? And, uh, I canceled and said, “Hey, I’d rather...” And I called you, I texted you right away, “Hey, I have an open af- afternoon. Do you wanna meet up, Jennie?” But this is the case, right? [00:02:00] W- when you have so much on your plate because you’re, you are moving pieces around to make things happen, little bits of sand drop through the cracks.Diana: I think, yes, that’s, that is a problem. But what’s the bigger problem is how we treat ourselves after that or during that, or the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and our capabilities. I think I said, “I’m so disorganized,” and you said, “Oh, I’m so disorganized.” And then we said, “Wait a minute, maybe we need to change our script.”Diana: Right? Which is hilarious because that’s what your entire book is about, is telling yourself a different story, not believing the first story that y- comes into your head, which is, oh, well, what happened was you told me that you did this and I laughed and I said, “Oh, I, I do things like that all the time. I c- I think of myself as a terribly disorganized person.”Diana: And that’s when we both stopped and said, “Well, wait a minute. What would the other story here be?” So that’s what- Yeah ... we thought we would talk about. Yeah. I often [00:03:00] think of the Lucille Ball episode when the chocolates are coming down the conveyor belt, and they start speeding up, and she’s stuffing them in her bra, and she’s stuffing it in her face, and they’re, and they’re flying off.Diana: And then you realize, well, wait a minute here, there’s an abundance of chocolate coming your way. Like, this is, this may be a good thing, you know? Like, you have a conference that you’re going to, or you have all these different opportunities that you’re juggling. And we could start there with, uh, shifting to that type of a story, which is a story of there’s so much ‘cause it’s an experience of abundance.Diana: It’s an experience of opportunities, of possibilities, which already shifts our mind into a different place. And you could notice that even in your body when you shift from, “I’m a disorganized mess,” to, “Oh, I have so many opportunities and possibilities right now.” Well, and what’s interesting in your case is that you, it, it wasn’t like you didn’t have a plane ticket.Diana: You had two plane tickets. So in some ways there’s a story of [00:04:00] you’re quite organized. You were gonna get yourself to this conference no matter what. Or a story of I didn’t trust myself, that I bought the plane ticket. So I had, I had to do it twice. But yes, I mean, the, the nature of the human mind is that it’s a story-making machine, and actually everything that we experience comes through the, our, our mental filters, and we get to be the chooser of which stories are most helpful.Diana: In Buddhism, there’s something called wise speech, and wise speech has these four qualities to it. The first quality is, is it helpful? The next one is, is it kind? The next one, which I think is a very useful one, is, is it timely? Like, is it a good time for m- for me to tell myself this story? Sometimes you might wanna tell yourself the story that you’re disorganized and you need to go get organized.Diana: You need to, you know, clean stuff up, do a little , spring cleaning. But telling yourself that when you’re in the middle of a ton of other things and now you have to deal with your low mood and feeling bad about yourself isn’t helpful. And then the fourth [00:05:00] quality of wise speech is, is it true? Sometimes we do need to question, is it true?Diana: Is it not true? But most of the time, if we’re getting all wrapped up with the, is it true? Is it not true? Am I disorganized or not? We’re just doing black and white thinking, and it’s m- usually more a little bit of both. That type of questioning our thoughts or questioning our stories and asking ourselves what would be the most helpful, what would be the most kind, what would be the most timely, and maybe what would be the most true, is a better angle to take with it, I think.Diana: I love that. I love that so much. I know another thing that happens when writers are juggling all the things is sometimes we, we drop one of the balls and w- we disappoint someone. So let’s say in a different iteration of this that you actually were supposed to fly yesterday, and so you missed the conference.Diana: You know, that, that happens when you have a whole bunch of things going on, or you wrote the time wrong down for the podcast interview, or you missed [00:06:00] some critical deadline, and now you have on top of that like, “Oh, I, I let these people down. I said I was gonna show up, and I’m not.” Or, you know, what, what do we do when the disorganization leads to those kinds of thoughts?Diana: Mm-hmm. Well, if, if there is something you need to clean up, sometimes we do need to clean up. Yeah. I mean, that’s kind of getting radically honest with ourself, and there’s, there’s t- two layers to that. Guilt is a, actually an emotion that we evolved as humans for a good reason, to clean stuff up. I made a mistake, I feel a little guilty, I go apologize.Diana: Um, I’ve, I had a, I gave, I did a white lie about something, I got caught, so I admit it. You know, whatever it is. That happened this morning. My son took my AirPod and he, he wouldn’t fess up. And finally he fessed up. I’m like, “See, doesn’t it feel better just to be honest?” Like, it’s just be honest about it.Diana: But there’s a, there’s a distinction between guilt, [00:07:00] which motivates us to just, just to clean stuff up, and shame. Shame is I am bad. There’s something wrong with me. I’m a bad person because I scheduled two flights or because I, you know, had, said a white lie to my mom for taking her AirPod. Shame is pretty detrimental, and it’s the type of emotion that makes us climb back into a hole and not put ourselves out there.Diana: And as writers, we need to be putting ourselves out there a lot. We need to be making lots of mistakes. Maybe every once in a while feeling a little bit guilty for something that we need a course correction on, but we course correct and we move on, as opposed to shame of I am bad, and then we’re paralyzed, frozen, and we go nowhere.Diana: Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, you’re making me think of something that happened to me one time when I was out there promoting a book, and I had been invited to do the keynote speech at a big conference. And- There was a process in place where [00:08:00] my presentation was vetted. Like, I had to submit it and, um, and it was vetted and, and we were really clear on what I was talking about and what I was doing there vis-a-vis what some other of the speakers were doing.Diana: So there was this nice work on the whole presentation, and I felt really confident about what I was doing. And I, I did the, um, presentation and, and it was sort of s- short and, um, I thought it was awesome. And then I got feedback from the conference presenters that I had completely misunderstood my role, that I should have spoken three times longer than I had, that I had delivered something sort of thin and not what they were expecting and what they had hired me for.Diana: I, I just remember I... Actually, what I did was I gave the money back that they had paid me. [00:09:00] I felt so bad. I felt so shameful that I, that I said, “I, I can’t take the money if, if it didn’t go well. You know, I’m giving it back.” I was so freaked out about it. But as... This is years and years ago. As the years have gone by, I’ve thought about it a lot, and I’ve thought, it wasn’t actually my fault.Diana: Like, I did i- all the steps that I did to make sure I was doing what I thought I was doing, and somehow I told the story that it was my... I did something bad. So- Yeah. Yeah ... that’s kinda, that’s what’s coming up for me when you said that. Isn’t that amazing? I think that that can be, um, our experience in so many different ways where we can fall into feeling bad, we can, um, we have experiences of feeling insignificant.Diana: I mean, especially when you’re putting yourself out there, and we take one little thread of feedback, and it can destroy us, especially where that feedback is coming from. Because you’re getting that feedback from the presenter, you know, whatever committee. The person who hired me, yeah. Who hired you.Diana: Imagine if w- if we went around and [00:10:00] we passed a microphone to the people in the audience. You would have been gotten a l- very different, you know, perspectives. And the, the question becomes, like, who, who am I doing this for? And, um, there was in- unclear communication. The last time I was at a big, uh, conference, uh, just a few months ago- I gave what I thought...Diana: It was on, on the book Wise Effort, and I gave what I thought was, like, the best talk I’d ever given, ever, on this. I was, I was flying high. I got great feedback. I thought it was, I thought it was pretty amazing. And it was- You’re like, “I’m so good at this.” Yeah. Yeah. I’m like, “I, I finally nailed it.” Yeah. Like, so many times.Diana: I finally said it the way I wanna say it. And, and when I give these talks, I- there- I- a la Jennie Nash, I bring in a giant notepad and a Sharpie, and I sometimes I do these little one-on-one exercises with people in the audience demonstrating Wise Effort. Like, draw what it feels like in your body and, and then I hold up the notepad for everyone to see.Diana: And so it was the day after, I’m leaving the conference, and I had the notepad under my arm, and [00:11:00] I’m getting a coffee, and this guy comes up to me looking like a very stately psychologist. He comes up to me, um, in line and he’s like, “Oh, did you go to the conference?” And I said, “Yes.” I said, “I...” And he said, “Oh, big notepad.”Diana: I said, “Yeah, actually, I presented yesterday.” And he said, “Oh, yeah, great. What did you present on?” And I said, “Well, I- uh, my name’s Anna Hill. I presented on Wise Effort.” And he said- ... “Oh, I think I went to that workshop.”Diana: It sounds like it made a mark. Insignificance. Insignificance. And i- in Buddhism, there’s something called the, um, the four worldly winds, which are the, the, the things that push... Or sometimes they say the eight worldly winds, but they’re things that push us off our game, right? And they are fame and insignificance.Diana: Ah. When you’re on either one of those, right, you’re- you got, you got, you got a chance that you’re gonna get knocked off. Another one is pleasure and pain. Another one is, um, blame and disrepute. Ooh. Ooh. Which is what you’re talking about there, blame. I feel like I was blamed. It knocked me off. [00:12:00] And then the last one is gain and loss.Diana: Hmm. And so as writers, we’re constantly, like, facing those winds, right? I get pr- I get, I feel famous, I feel insignificant. Oh, this is so great, so much pleasure. This sucks. This is the most painful thing I’ve ever been through in my life, right? Oh, I got the book deal. Ooh, it’s with this, you know, kinda crappy publisher.Diana: So f- you know, all up and down, up and down, up and down. And the question becomes, I mean, back to the story of juggling all the things. If you’re juggling all those things, where are your feet planted? Are you stable? Even, even if you’re dropping stuff right and left. And that doesn’t really matter if you’re dropping stuff, if you feel planted in who you are, what you have to offer, you know?Diana: And yeah, you’re gonna ... It’s gonna go high and it’s gonna go low, and you’ll double book. Well, that’s what I thought was remarkable about what you did today. You pivoted so fast. I think you texted me, might have been before 8:00 AM. You were just, just like, “I have a whole day.” You know, do, like you just started making meaning of your new [00:13:00] reality, which was you’re not on an airplane today.Diana: You’re on an airplane tomorrow, and it seemed like it took you no time at all to, like you said, your feet were so planted that you sort of just shook it off and moved on. Is, is that what it felt like? Yeah, it felt like carpe diem. You know? It was one of those, I was mad, I was disappointed, I was ... I, I hate those airline apps, and then I’m calling the airline.Diana: I was in the struggle for a little bit, and then, and then I just dropped it and said, “Okay, then what do I wanna do today?” So already today I, I’ve been to yoga, I went to I went to Savoy to get my favorite salad, I’m talking to Jennie Nash. I’m like, “This is a great day. I’m so glad I’m not in Washington DC.”Diana: Wait, is your favorite salad the kale blueberry? At Savoy? It’s ... No. Yeah I go s- I go to the salad bar because they, I think they’re the only salad bar that has like the, the most amazing salmon, like in the salad bar. Like, you can just like, you know, put wild salmon- Pile it on. Okay, okay ... yeah, pile it on. So that’s what I do.Diana: Yeah. All right. We’re talking about [00:14:00] a little deli in our town. Um- Down in Santa Barbara. You gotta go ... I mean, it does sound like a great day. And then- Yeah ... we’re recor…

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Let’s chat about Episode 522! Sep 11, 2026

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Margin Notes: Making Marketing a Creative Project with Stuart Wakefield Sep 11, 2026

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In this Margin Notes episode of the #amwriting podcast, host Jennie Nash talks with book coach and author Stuart Wakefield about approaching marketing as a creative project by making joyful “artifacts” that expand a story world rather than simply asking readers to buy a book. Wakefield shares his creative background, a past period when his creative practice stopped, and how he now immerses himself in projects tied to his latest novel, All Hands on Dick, set in 1956 aboard the cruise ship SS Celestial. Stuart describes the book’s comedic, queer, mid-century influences and its characters, explains creating items like a 3D-printed ocean liner and a hand-cut 10-inch vinyl record featuring AI-assisted big band songs, and discusses building an animated music video. Nash also previews upcoming episodes with Wakefield on using the Blueprint method to develop a series, as he launches his trilogy A Gay Odysea.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Connect with Stuart* Visit his book coaching site* Read his books* Watch his music videoTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hi, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we’re talking about the big decisions writers face in their work or creative lives.I’m here today to talk with Stuart Wakefield about making marketing a creative project. And you’ve heard from Stuart before. He has coached on the podcast, and we’ll link to that episode in the show notes. He also will be in episodes to come, which we’ll talk about in a moment, and Stuart is a fascinating individual who’s had a long career in all kinds of things, including TV writing, playwriting, a long stint in IT.What? [00:01:00] And, and now Stuart works with me at Author Accelerator, and he runs his own book coaching business at thebookcoach.co. Welcome, Stuart.Stuart: Thank you for having me, Jennie. I’m really excited to talk to you today.Jennie: I’m excited too. This is such a, such a interesting topic. So the reason this came up is that Stuart launched a new book, which he’ll tell you about in a moment, which is part of a series, which he’ll tell you about in a moment, and I started seeing out on social media just all this really fun content that he was producing.And obviously then I would get to talk to him at work, and I- he just would have so much joy, and then he would say, “Oh, let me show you this other thing.” And when I talk about fun content, I’m talking about, like, music videos, cartoons, animated [00:02:00] little shorts. He wrote a song. He, he’s writing a music video. He 3D printed a ship.He printed a vinyl record. I mean, it’s bonkers. And so I just wanted to dig into this about what are you doing, and why is it creating so much joy, and what can we learn from it? So that’s what we’re here to talk about.Stuart: Oh, oh, oh. Right. Okay. So, so in, in my creative practice, I have always enjoyed... You know, I started acting when I was five, um, so I’ve always been in kind of around the theater, even when my kind of IT career and project management career was all kind of going on.So I’ve always enjoyed that. I, um, started a, a- A degree in fashion design. Um, after a year at art college, I, you know, carried on acting and then had a break in 2003. Uh, if I’m really honest with you, I had a breakdown and- Yeah ... m- [00:03:00] my creative practice just stopped. And about six years later in 2009, I started writing.And you know, I’ve always been a creative person, and I’ve always been a storyteller, and I tend, but I tend to do it in a very short, concise way. So the shortest piece of fiction I’ve sold was 50 words.Jennie: That’s short.Stuart: Right. Okay. So I, um- Have had like a, a side art project. It’s called The Queer Historian of Emotional Truths.Um, and there is a website that sits with that, and the idea is that the queer historian has found artifacts, um, and he is curating those and sharing those on the website, and they might be voicemails, they might be found photos, found objects. And when I got my... So I really love that kind of very small to- storytelling, those, those really poignant moments, [00:04:00] as opposed to great big, long stories.Um, I recently s- sold a story to Divine Femins- Feminine Publishing as well, um, which is again, it’s cozy sci-fi, but it’s very much the small kind of human moments.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And I found that after writing this book, I became so invested in the world that I wanted to do small art projects that kind of lived within that world.So that’s where this has come from. I, I don’t see it as marketing. I see it as telling those smaller stories within that wider world that really convey the joy that not only have I got from writing that, that work, but I think lives on after the reader closes and reads that last, that last page and then closes the book.Jennie: Well, this is why it’s so exciting and inspiring to me, because so often when writers talk about marketing or think about marketing, they’re thinking [00:05:00] about, “Buy my book. Buy my book. Buy my book,” and that’s not at all where you’re coming from. I suspect... Well, with this current project, it’s, it’s brand new, but I suspect that that’s where it’s gonna go, right?That it’s impossible to imagine sh- that you’re gonna share all these creative acts and artifacts and not get people... I was gonna say on board, but that’s gonna be like- The, it’s a- ItStuart: is set follow... It’s set on board a, a ocean liner. Right. So on, on board is great.Jennie: Right? Like the, how could those two things not happen?That, I guess what I’m getting at is I, I often think that the results people want don’t usually come from the path that they think is gonna get them there. Right. The results come from doing the work you love, writing the story you want, and in your case, making this a creative project. Do you- Yes ... do you think that’s [00:06:00] true?Stuart: Yeah. You know, very much so, and I was discussing this with a marketing book coach, uh, Rebecca Grogan.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: Highly recommend her to any romance writer. So that’s beckythebookcoach.com, and, you know, we got talking about creative projects and how much I don’t really like marketing. I always thought it was a very British thing not to like marketing, but the more and more US writers I, I meet and fellow coaches, again, you know, marketing can feel like something unsavory.Jennie: RightStuart: And what I really want to do is show people these cool things I’ve made and invite them very much into the world. Because what I do in any of my creative writing projects, I have objects that represent what I’m writing on my desk. So, um, I have a book that’s set in 1907, so I got [00:07:00] artifacts from, from that time.I have a book that’s set, well hopefully coming out in a few months, which is, uh, set in Madrid in 1958, and one of the characters works in a print shop. So I have wooden blocks, wooden printing blocks that spell out this character’s names. So-Jennie: Oh,Stuart: that’sJennie: so cool.Stuart: So as I switch from project to project, I bring those things and put those onto my desk, and I just find it helps me get into that head space-Jennie: YeahStuart: and that emotional connection.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So because I still have a, a very strong emotional connection to what it is that I’ve just published, and I know there are two more books coming, I really wanted to sit and kind of immerse myself in that world. And the first object I created was this 3D printed ocean liner, because that has what has been sitting on my desk while I’ve been writing this first book.Jennie: So when you say you 3D printed it, how did you go about [00:08:00] that?Stuart: Okay, so I-Jennie: Oh, and, and let’s just describe, since people can’t see it. It’s, it’s about like eight inches, 10 inches? Uh, yeah, yeah. So- And it’s... Is it made of plastic?Stuart: Yeah. So it’s 3D printed, uh, so it’s kind of a, a resinous kind of plastic that’s- Yeahjust melted as it comes through the head. And yeah, so I found, uh, a model online, and then I... My comput- my computer modeling is not great. It’s one of the few things that I’d see that I don’t really, you know, have a skill at. So I contacted a friend and said, you know, “Can you modify this for me? Um, can you change the name on the side of the ship?”‘Cause the model that was already there, um, had a different name. And yeah, you know, we, we worked on the look and the feel, and then when we were ready, we found someone else to, to actually print it up. So for me, it’s just a lovely object, and I know I’m going to be able to take it to book fairs. There’s one coming up at the end of September- So I have little [00:09:00] wooden life rings, we have ship’s rope, I have a reception bell.Um, so all of these artifacts, again, when s- if somebody comes to my stand at the book fair, they will be walking into the world of the SS Celestial.Jennie: That’s so fun. Okay, so let’s, let’s talk about the, this, the ship and what happens on the ship and the story and the whole thing, ‘cause it’s just too much fun.So it’s, um, set in 1956 on a cruise ship. The name of the book is called All Hands on Dick, and it is currently out. So why don’t you tell us about first All Hands on Dick, and then the series that it, um, begins?Stuart: Okay. So All Hands on Dick follows cruise director Dick Dockery, and Dick is one of those people that puts the passengers’ needs before his own.So, and he is very good at his job But on the voyage from New York to Bermuda, [00:10:00] a slightly seedy kind of underground guy with a reputation called Van Valentine boards the ship. And Van very quickly identifies that what Dick is doing, that he’s fulfilling everybody’s needs but his own. So throughout a...It’s very much a comedy of manners. So throughout that and some farcical moments and lots of beautiful sub-stories, um, Dick eventually learns that being needed is not the same as being loved.Jennie: Very, very, uh, profound message in a very fun setting. So some of the other characters, tell us about some of these other characters.Stuart: Okay. So we have, uh, newlyweds, uh, Buck and Kitty Devereaux. And Buck seems very nervous in his marriage, so one of the kind of mysteries is what is Buck hiding? And then eventually we start to learn that actually Kitty might be hiding some- something as well. We have [00:11:00] Aurelia Cashmere, who is a sort of a, a grande dame, I guess.She, she’s first class. Um, she has come on board with a secret that she’s going to reveal something when they get to Bermuda. We have, uh, Tony’s sidekick, uh, Bunny Marlowe. We have a steward who seems to know everything called Tony Two Towels. We have a light-fingered magician called Pip Larkin. Um, and- ThisJennie: is just so great.And you s-Stuart: And then lounge singer... Sorry, then we have a l- a lounge singer called Rex Devereaux. Uh, and he has a on-off affair with his piano player, Joey Lamplight.Jennie: Okay. So you shared with me that, um, you loved The Love Boat, the, the TV show, right? Oh,Stuart: it’s one of my... It, it’s just fantastic. And I, I tell you what happened, I love the movie An Affair to Remember-Jennie: Mm-hmmStuart: with Deborah Kerr and Cary Grant. [00:12:00] And you know, I was... My mom loved kind of ‘40s, ‘50s movies. So she kind of introduced me to those when I was growing up, ‘cause I was born in the early ‘70s. So you know, sh- I was kind of weaned on, on movies by watching those. And I loved watching The Love Boat, and more recently...I say recently, it’s a few years old now, but the movie Down with Love, uh, with Renee Zellweger.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I watched that and it reminded me of the Doris Day, Rock Hudson kind of sex comedies.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So the vision for All Hands on Dick and the series that it fits into, um, very much came from those, those influences, and the love of, of the, all of those things.Jennie: Well, and it has that, and has that feel. So we’ll talk about the whole series in a minute, but some of the other things that you made artifacts that you made, uh, well, there was a song and then there was a record, [00:13:00] and then there was a music video. So how much time have you spent making all these things?Stuart: I, I, I think, I think that wh- what, what happened was, I, I, I’d finished the book and I w- I was, I, something had happened.I think, I think an old Drifters song came up on my, um, Irene’s, uh, list, and I’d been listening to... We have a, a TV, um, advert that’s on in the UK that, uh, has the song, um, Beyond the Sea.Jennie: Oh, sure, sure.Stuart: It’s Bobby... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I was, “Oh, okay.” So I knew that Rex, the lounge singer, one of his storylines is that there’s a song that he can’t sing.Jennie: Oh.Stuart: It is too emotional for him, and he’s desperately trying to get his career back on track and, but there’s this one song that he just cannot sing, but it’s one of the most powerful songs that could potentially bring his [00:14:00] career back. And I’d been thinking about songs and, you know, again, my mom was just a very, very funny wom- woman and, you know, we would make songs up together.And I wrote some jokey lyrics, uh, called, for a big band number sung by Bunny, called Everybody Needs Dick. And, and, you know, uh, you, the lyrics are, are, you know, a bit silly here and there, but, uh, I just had fun with it.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: You know? So none of this was planned. Um, now I know some people are gonna be really anti-AI, and I, I totally get that, but this was for my personal consumption.So I put those lyrics into an, a, an AI and said like, “Can you write a big band, you know, backing track to go with this?” Just as an experiment, and what came out just really took me by surprise. So-Jennie: It’s amazing. I mean, it sounds like a fully produced Andrews Sister song.Stuart: Yes, yes. Love The [00:15:00] Andrews Sisters.Yeah. And then I got thinking about Rex’s song, and I thought, “What kind of avoidant thing would Rex sing?” So I wrote some lyrics for that and, um, again, put it into the same AI, AI, and it came out with a couple of versions, and one of them immediately made me start to cry. Oh, no. And I thought, “Okay, if I have an emotional connection to this song, then I need to do something with these tracks.”So I’d been kind of living in the world of the SS Celestial, which is the, the ship that the story is set on, and got to thinking about kind of souvenirs and, and would the ship sell souvenirs, and what kind of things might they sell? And I thought, “Okay, if I’m gonna have an object that’s all my own, then as my kind of reward for finishing the book,” I thought, “wouldn’t it be great to have a vinyl record?”So then I get into researching how much music can you get on, you know, a seven-inch, a 10-inch, [00:16:00] 12-inch record. Settled on a 10-inch record because, um, Rex’s song is six minutes. It won’t sit on the seven-inch. Then I had to do my research. You know, were 10-inch singles available in the US in the 1950s? Turns out they still were.Um, then I got to designing the record covers and the labels. I found a company in, uh, the, in London who handcraft. So rather than press a record, they hand-cut it.Jennie: Oh,Stuart: wow. Um, found a company to do that. And yeah, you know, a week later I had in my hands a, a, a 10-inch record, and that is just for my personal consumption, but, you know, I will share that on,um, you know,uh, social media. I will play parts of the record on social media. And yeah, that’s where I kind of got to in there, and I just wanted to share with people like, “Oh, look, I made this co…

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You’re Invited: Come Chat about This Week’s Episode Sep 04, 2026

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Write Big: Beyond the Book Deal Sep 04, 2026

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Host Jennie Nash talks with novelist and journalist Caroline Madden about why writers crave traditional publishing deals and how that desire can become an unhealthy obsession tied to external validation and “pick me” energy. Madden recounts a 20-year path to publication, including losing two agents and dying on submission, then changing her writing through Lisa Cron’s Story Genius, Nash’s Blueprint for a Book, and Donald Maass’s Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook; her later two novels earned deals, including her debut The Marriage Vendetta (HarperCollins) and a forthcoming book. They discuss how redefining “why,” setting a bigger North Star (for Madden, contributing to feminist issues), releasing desperation, and defining success concretely can stabilize writers through rejection and shifting goalposts. Madden advises seeking blunt, market-informed feedback from industry professionals and emphasizes control through craft and writing rather than chasing validation.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Books Mentioned in this Episode* Story Genius by Lisa Cron* Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass* The Marriage Vendetta by Caroline MaddenThe Substack Exchange We Couldn’t Find — We Found It!Blueprint Courses👉 Enroll in the Fiction Blueprint Course👉 Enroll in the Memoir Blueprint Course👉 Enroll in the Nonfiction Blueprint CourseTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey, everyone. It’s Jennie, and I have a really fun episode today. I’m speaking with novelist Carolyn Madden, and we just had a fun interaction on Substack about a really profound thing, and we actually just tried to find our interaction, and we’re unable to do so.So we’re going to have to recreate what it was. But the topic that we’re talking about is why writers, especially debut writers, but all writers, so desperately want traditional publishing deals, what that desire is, what that feeling is. And I saw something that Carolyn wrote [00:01:00] on Substack and, and just was like, “This, this.Why is not everybody talking about this?” So we’re going to talk about this. So welcome.Caroline: Thank you so much, Jennie. I’m really thrilled to be here, especially because, um, I have your Blueprint for a Book, a nonfiction book that I ordered. I suppose it must have been maybe 10 years ago.Jennie: Oh my gosh. Well, that was whatCaroline: was- 10...Would it be 10 years ago?Jennie: That was what was so... Part of what was so fun was I- Yeah ... I didn’t know who you were, and I responded to this note. And you said, “Oh, I, I know who you are. I have your book.” And, um- Yeah ... and here we are. So thatCaroline: was- And you didn’t know that... Yeah, you didn’t know because I do recommend it a lot.So I, I... That’s so funny. Um, so it’s a pure coincidence. And I will say that this is... There was like a turning point. Just to go back a little bit, I’ve had a very, very long, uh, trip, uh, circuitous, scenic route to being published. So [00:02:00] my debut novel, The Marriage Vendetta, was published last year by Harper Collins.But... And it’s about a woman called Eliza, a musician. It’s based on a real-life character. But I have been working on some version of Eliza’s story for- 20 years now at this stage. So it took me more than a decade of actively trying to get published to get my book deal. And there was a pivotal moment where I was brought very low.It’s like in a novel where you have your dark night of the soul. I had lost my second agent. I had died on submission twice, and I thought, “I cannot keep doing this to myself because I will end up an old lady with a pile of unpublished novels. I either quit now or I do something differently.” And what I did was I was like, “Okay, I’m not giving up.”I went online, I ordered Story Genius by Lisa Cron, discovered you through that and bought this book, and I bought the Donald Maass book as well. And those three books were the turning points of my whole writing life, [00:03:00] and completely changed how I wrote. And if I hadn’t bought them, I would still be writing those pointless novels, Jennie, so I’m so grateful.Um-Jennie: Oh, my gosh. Wow. Yeah. So, so it was Lisa Cron’s Story Genius, and we have to get the name of Donald’s book, ‘cause it’s great and it’s ... I’m blanking on it right now. Um-Caroline: Yeah, the one that- I’m just- I have a couple, but it was, um, the How To ... I have it here. Yeah, Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook. This one.Okay. And the funny thing is, Jennie, I mean, last week when you, or the, whenever it was you contacted me, it was just such an exciting moment for me because that was such a pivotal book. But the weird thing is, and I just don’t know how this has happened, it’s like karma, I am now represented by the Donald Maass agency, but I never queried him.It was completely by accident, and I just think there’s some kind of karma at work. I don’t know. Um,Jennie: because ICaroline: haven’t- This isJennie: crazy.Caroline: It’s just gone crazy.Jennie: It’s crazy. Yeah. It’s ... So more than a dozen years trying to get published, but [00:04:00] you- Yes ... but you write for The Irish Times, is that correct? You’re a journalist.Caroline: Uh, yeah, so, and this kinda comes back to what I was talking about on Substack. I decided I wanted to be published when I was sort of mid-20s, like as a novelist, but I thought, “I’ll start small. I’ll just start trying to get some, um, some small bits and pieces published. Okay, I’ll try and write some journalism.”I, I was working as a tax consultant at the time and I wanted to get out of it. And what happened was I did get some articles published, and then it actually turned into a whole career in journalism that went on for a long time, and I wrote for The Irish Times for a long time, all with the aim of getting a novel published.Jennie: Wow.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: So, um, I, I actually did a, a speed read of The Marriage Vendetta. It’s such a fun- Thank you ... kind of romp of a, a story. It’s- Yeah ... it’s, um, it’s very feminist Thank you. It’s, it’s, um- Yeah ... funny. It’s dark. It’s, [00:05:00] uh, satire. I, I heard some people describe it as domestic thriller. Yeah. Um, so this, this book has come out now, um, well, last year, and you have another coming out next year.Is-Caroline: Yeah ... is itJennie: in theCaroline: sameJennie: vein? Yeah. The same type of story?Caroline: It is. It’s a little bit darker, but it is, I suppose, a feminist thriller. And so in total, I’ve written four complete novels. Two of them I wrote before discovering Story Genius and Blueprint for a Book and Donald Maass, and those two died a death.They died. One, one of them died twice on submission, uh, two agents. The other one never even made it on submission. So I wrote two without this method, and I wrote two novels with this method, and both of those have got deals, so it was pivotal. But I think what we were talking about with Substack was I think I put something of saying like, it wasn’t until I stepped back and looked at this obsession that reallyI [00:06:00] mean, it took over my life. It, it’s why I went into journalism. I put everything into it, and I’ve met so many people, aspiring writers, who are the same. It’s a sort of fixation. It’s an obsession. And when I hit that low point of losing my second agent, I thought, “I’ve got to figure out what is driving this,” because this is destructive in my life.It’s actually an, an unhealthy addiction now at this point. And so obviously I thought, “Is it for the money?” Well, no, because you can make more money in practically any other line of work really, because I’d made no money from it. So- From being a lawyer ... so, youJennie: know. Yeah.Caroline: Yeah, so it’s, it is not for the money.Okay, is it, um- To get a- a- an audience, to get your message out there. Well, I’m a journalist, so it can’t be that. Oh. Um, and so what I did was I ... I was just like, “Th- th- this, it must be just for sort of, like, the validation.” So what I decided, and I thought, that’s not a very healthy motivator, because it’s never enough, really.You get the book deal, [00:07:00] then, well, someone else got a bigger book deal. So I thought, I’ve got to get, have a ... I, this is gonna destroy me. I, I either have to quit or figure out a healthier perspective of it. So what I did was I zoomed right back out, a bigger picture. Like, let’s say at the end of my days and I look back and I think, “Yeah, that was a life well spent,” what does that look like?And I thought, well, let’s say I have five novels published and they were okay, and people like them. Is that big enough? And I thought, that’s not big enough. And what was important to me at that time were a lot of feminist issues, gender equality, and I thought, if I could move the needle even in the tiniest way on any of those sort of issues, now that is a life well spent.And so then writing a novel just became, that became my North Star. And then I thought, well, writing a novel is only a part of that. Okay, if I get a, uh, get to write a feminist novel with a, with a sort of subtle message, fantastic. It’s part of it. But there are so many other ways within my control that I could try at [00:08:00] least to- Contribute to feminist causes or those sort of things.Um, so it gave me back a sense of control. It put things in perspective as well, and it also took the focus off, like, the ego. Like, I want to be accepted, you know? And it took the pressure off my novels, because I was fixating on ... And I know people who do this, and they say to me, “I won’t ... I, I don’t know what I will do if I don’t get a book deal.”And I think, I kind of think now that I was so desperate, and I think that desperation can repel success. You’re clinging so tight to it, and then you end up sort of chasing trends and, “Well, that might work. And publishers like m- might like that,” instead of actually taking a breath and looking inwards.Like, “What’s important to me? Like, what is the biggest moral dilemma I’m grappling with right now? What’s worth writing about? And okay, I want to get paid for my [00:09:00] novels, but I also need them to be about something important without being preachy.” You know, like, and the, the fiction is so powerful that you can, you know, suck people in with a story, and then they can go away with a different perspective if you’ve pulled it off.And I thought, “Well, that’s the power of fiction.” And I think when I got a healthier perspective on, like, not just, like, fixating on s- the success of my novels, that’s actually when I got the deal. Um, because I think we put so much pressure on our novels to make our lives perfect. And then I had had a, a nonfiction book published in my 20s, uh, and I knew what theAnd I had got to know an awful lot of writers. And I had seen that failure had been very hard for me, but I could see that success had been difficult for some authors I knew as well, because they might have had very quick initial success with their novels, but then maybe subsequent novels were not successful and they were struggling to get published again.[00:10:00]And they were actually more devastated than aspiring authors who hadn’t got a deal yet. So I had seen, like, if you pin all your hopes on a book deal, it’s gonna make your life perfect, and it’s all gonna be worth it, I could see what was, what had happened to people who had quick, quick early success and hadn’t experienced, like, the brut- brutal rejections-Jennie: YeahCaroline: and didn’t know what a difficult industry they were getting into.Jennie: Well- YouCaroline: know, IJennie: said- ... first of all, I, I just have to thank you for your honesty. It’s, it’s unusual to hear someone be so honest about- Well, you’re using the word obsession and- Mm-hmm ... and that you felt it was what was going to make your life worth living, and you used the word addiction.I think a lot of writers feel that, but they’re afraid to talk about how big and powerful those feelings are. So I- it’s incredible that you’re [00:11:00] doing that, and you’re, you’re using your Instagram and Substack to, to speak about these things. And I, of course, the reason it stopped me in my tracks was, of course, and I didn’t know that you had, had been reading The Blueprint, but the first step of The Blueprint is why are you even doing this?And- Yes ... you know, it w- I saw you answering why on a bigger plane. Mm. You know, my question is about why are you writing this book, but your question was why are you, why do you want to be published in this way? And that stepping back, you were sharing how you step back and, and really broke down, well, what could be driving this?And- Mm ... um, I, I agree that wh- where the writer sits in relation to their work matters, impacts the work. It just, it does. And- Yeah ... I see that all the time. I feel it [00:12:00] in, in my own self all the time. And, um, so I just think you’re doing a great service. Um, and I wonder if this type of conversation in your mind connects...You know, you talked about you wanted your books to move the needle in this, around ideas of feminism and, and empowerment for women. Do you feel that these conversations are doing the same thing? These conversations about- Do you mean in the senseCaroline: of- ...Jennie: about helping writers understand their, their deep motivations and, and their, um, relationship to rejection and does it, does it sit in the same-Caroline: I think soJennie: place?Caroline: I think so because I think it all comes from You spoke about it in another episode that I listened to. It’s this pick me girl energy. Yes. We want to be the good client for our agent, [00:13:00] and even I have it in the book where she goes to a marriage therapist. Irish fe- I’m from Ireland, and we have this tendency if we ever do actually go to therapy, we want to be their favorite client.We want to give the right answers, you know? And with our editors, we want to be the easygoing. We want to be picked. And so this was the opposite. This, these kind of conversations saying you have to be okay in yourself. Like, your worth does not depend on how many books you’re, you sell. You are still just as valuable whether you get a book deal or not, and there are things within your control.It’s kind of like, what’s in your control? And that is, like for ex- I’ll give an example. So when my book, The Marriage of Indebted, did actually go out on submission, this was my third time on submission, and it had been so harrowing the first two times, uh, because it had kind of coincided weirdly both times with going on maternity leave and leaving my job behind, this strange [00:14:00] feeling of being invisible, and then we both failed.So I thought, “I can’t go through that again.” And, uh, so I thought- It’s actually from your blueprint for a book. You had said, I think you had said, it’s probably from your book, that if you pick a sort of a, something that you’re important that you’re wrestling with, like an emotion or a moral choice that you’re wrestling with in your own life...Not that my book is in any way autobiographical, but the emotional wrestling and moral choices. Um, and if you work that out in your novel, then you could end up with figuring out something more important to your life than a book deal ever could be. You could have figured out a central dilemma in your own life.And so with each of my books now, I have done that. Like, I might disguise them with a metaphor, I might disguise them with completely different characters and even a different situation, but at the end of writing each of these books through that method, I come out with something mo…

Full show notes at the publisher

Write Big: Traditional Submission Ends, Commitment Continues Aug 28, 2026

Show notes

In this episode of #amwriting, Jennie continues this series of “Write Big” episodes in which she vulnerably shares her own process of turning the Write Big concepts into a book, thanking listeners and inviting them to become paid subscribers. In this tough installment, recorded after a Zoom call with her agent while sick, she explains they are ending submission after sending the proposal to 30 publishers; feedback was largely positive, but publishers felt the book would be hard to break out without a large platform, and there was nothing actionable to change.

Jennie feels sad about losing the chance for bookstore placement via a traditional deal, but emphasizes she does not feel rejected and believes strongly in the finished manuscript and her marketing plans. She plans to move forward independently, explore formats and special editions, and frames the moment as what “writing big” means: taking ownership, not playing small, and writing like it matters.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, it’s Jennie, and I’m here to introduce a series of episodes that I’m going to be doing. But before I do that, I just want to thank you for being a listener. I inherited this podcast from KJ, Jess, and Serena back in December, and didn’t really know how it was going to work with just me at the helm or what I was going to do to make it valuable to writers.

And I’ve been finding my way, and I’ve just been so grateful that you’re continuing to listen. I appreciate it so much. I have a lot of really cool things planned coming up, so I hope you’ll keep listening, and I also hope that if you’re getting something from it, that you consider becoming a paid subscriber.

That helps support me and the producer and assistants who help me put this together, and we would appreciate your support so much. Okay. So the reason that I wanted to introduce this upcoming series is that it’s a series of Write Big episodes that are about me and the project that I’m working on, and it feels a little vulnerable to be sharing in this way.

I’ve had some mentors and advisors [00:01:00] suggest that maybe I shouldn’t do this because I’m here on the #amwriting podcast as an authority. I’m the book coach who coaches the book coaches and who has coached a lot of writers, and I come at you from that place of expertise. But in these next episodes, I’m coming at you as a writer my own self, and I’m coming with some pretty raw material.

I debated whether or not I should share it at all, but I decided to go ahead. I think it’s the honest way to show that I’m here working on the Write Big issues right alongside you because every writer is. These are not just theoretical ideas. They’re ideas that we all have to wrestle with. It doesn’t matter that I’ve published 12 books or that I’ve coached hundreds of writers and thousands of book coaches.

What matters is that I want the book I’m writing to be great, and I want it to make an impact, and I want it to be authentically me, and that’s what writing big is all about. So the [00:02:00] project that you’re going to hear me talk about is trying to turn the Write Big concepts into a Write Big book. And this episode that you’re gonna hear first is a pretty tough one.

I want you to know that it all turns out just fine. I’m fine, and I’ll be sharing the journey of my bringing the Write Big book into the world with all of you as we go with some special opportunities to be inside the process with me and to help me make the book as good as it could be. This will all just be a small part of what I have planned for the #amwriting podcast, but I wanted to give you this context before you listen today, just so you know what this episode is all about and the next few ones that follow.

Okay, now let’s get to it.

This is a Write Big session where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today, I have a bad cold, as you can hear, but I just got off the Zoom with my agent, and I wanted to [00:03:00] capture this moment for all of you because I think it’s really important to capture it.

So even though it was a sad call and I feel bad, I wanted to record this right now. And, um, it was sad because we decided that our submission efforts are over and they didn’t work. My agent submitted to 30 publishers, and the overall feedback was amazing, as I shared in some earlier episodes. It was just incredible how many people know me, know my work how well the proposal landed with people, how seriously they considered it.

My agent did something that I’ve actually never seen before, which is that she had a spreadsheet, a Google spreadsheet, and she would share the feedback in the spreadsheet as it came in. So I have all of the feedback in this spreadsheet. I’m looking [00:04:00] at it right now. And so what my agent and I decided is that there was really nothing that we could do.

There was nothing that we could control. Nobody was saying, “Go out and get a whole bunch of new followers and come back to us.” Nobody was saying anything about a different content or concept. There was just a general feeling that it would be hard to break this book out. I’m not famous, and I don’t have a big following, and I can’t get that.

I can’t snap my fingers and, and make that a thing. There are a lot of books in this category from people that do have that. And so I just am at that disadvantage, and there’s, there’s nothing that we could do. So we decided that’s the end of the road. So what I wanted to capture, the reason I wanted to record this was, this is a book called [00:05:00] Write Big.

And writing big in my mind- is not about going for it. That’s not what it’s about. It might be, and when you write big, you might do that, and what I was doing in trying to get a traditional deal for this book was going for it, and I’m sad I didn’t get it. That’s the sadness. I’m sad I didn’t get it. I really wanted this book to be in bookstores.

I feel like it’s a book that would do really well in bookstores, and should be in bookstores. That was my primary goal for getting a traditional deal, because I’ve self-published the Blueprint books, and they sell very well, and they do very well. And the one publisher that we spoke to commented upon that, actually said, “You do so well.

What can we... What could we do that’s different from what you’re already doing?” So that is an [00:06:00] interesting part of the conversation. But I want it to be in bookstores, and it’s hard to be in bookstores, really nearly impossible with a book like this from self-publishing. So the sadness is that I won’t have that.

And but underneath all of that sadness and the disappointment that it didn’t work is a belief in what I’m doing. I have a finished manuscript. I have it out with two beta readers, and I’ll be talking about why I picked those two and what that process was and how the feedback from them has gone and what I’m doing with that feedback in later episodes.

But I know that this material is good. I know that it’s useful. I’m excited about this material. My proposal had some killer marketing plan in it that I’m really excited to pursue without a [00:07:00] publishing partner, a traditional publishing partner, and some of the things that I wanna pursue will be easier without a publishing partner because I’ll have control over the pricing and special offers and giveaways and things like that.

But I... the, this book is not... this, this news is not the end of this book by any stretch of the imagination. It’s just the end of this piece of what I wanted, and that’s the core belief, is that this, this idea is solid and sound, and I’m excited about it, and I wanna bring it into the world, and actually nothing is gonna stop me from doing that, and I feel a fierce, m- what is it?

Desire to do that. So I don’t feel like this is a setback. I don’t feel like it’s a referendum on what I wrote. [00:08:00] I don’t feel like it’s personal I don’t feel rejected. Again, I just feel sad because I had a, a dream or a vision of that, of that bookstore thing. But, you know, what does that represent? It...

What it means is that this book would get into writers’ hands, and it would get into writers’ hands in that way of, you know, someone wanders into a bookstore and they’re noodling around, and they are come upon that writer book reference shelf in which actually often several of my clients’ books sit. And which is kind of ironic.

One of, one of the re- uh, rejection letters actually referenced that they already have a book similar-ish to mine which is somebody that I, that I helped. So, and one of my coaches helped. So, yeah, it’s a little bitter- [00:09:00] bittersweet part of that there, for sure. But, you know, the ultimate goal is that writers get this, and writers use this, and writers make something from the content in this book, and that can happen whether they encounter that book in the bookstore or not.

So that is what is gonna happen. I will pursue this and move forward with this on my own. And, It, yeah, it feels, I’m just- I’m sort of closing my eyes and sitting here and trying to feel how I feel. I mean, I knew, I knew what was happening on this call. It wasn’t a surprise to me. It was, you know, we agreed to add the submission and to have this conversation today.

So I wasn’t surprised by the news. But, you know, having the call is, is final and the agent that I chose for this project is lovely and loves my work and did it- did all she could do. Um, I have no, I have no, um, [00:10:00] feelings or regrets about her role in this. And yeah, I feel a little, uh... What do I feel?

It’s, uh, it’s hard to know what you feel. Um, I feel a little, I guess vulnerable, uh, sharing, sharing this in what, um, will be a podcast, but I don’t know. I just, I’m out here trying to teach and to lead and to coach, and I’ve coached so many writers through this moment in different ways and different kinds of books over the years, and it’s part of the process.

I- I’ve been in the seat of helping someone through it many, many times and it it will be okay. I know it will be okay. And, um, we’re so lucky that we live in a time when the publishing decision is not the final decision. I have so much control and agency and choice, and maybe this is w- actually gonna be the best [00:11:00] possible for- thing for this book.

And I’m starting to think about, oh, maybe I’ll do a, a special kind of cover or a special hardback edition in addition to paper and e-book and audio. There’s so many things that I could do and I’m excited to, to do it. So I will take a, a beat and mourn, mourn the thing that I didn’t get that I wanted and move on.

And that is what I think writing big is all about. Again, it’s not going for it and, getting the big prize and that kind of energy. It’s, you know what? how can you stop playing small and write like it matters? How can you go big in terms of your ownership of this and taking responsibility of this and doing what you can to bring it to life?

And that’s always in our control. So that’s what I’m [00:12:00] gonna do, and I wanted to share that with you in the moment. So until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus Margin Notes: Finishing the Blueprint: Recognizing the Shift from Planning to Writing Aug 22, 2026

Show notes

In a bonus #amwriting podcast episode, host Jennie Nash talks with academic writing coach Kathy Mazak of Scholar’s Voice (and host of Academic Writing Amplified) about how writers keep going after completing a blueprint and finish what they start. Mazak explains her mission-based work helping academics—especially women and non-binary scholars—publish their research by aligning time management and writing with an academic mission statement. She argues that big blocks of time are unrealistic and that one to two hours once or twice a week can be enough if protected and supported by project management systems. They discuss common obstacles like not honoring writing time, fear of disappointing oneself, and harsh peer review, and emphasize mindset work as at least half the solution. Mazak describes managing multiple projects by focusing on a top three, letting others “sleep,” and “killing” stalled “zombie projects,” plus recognizing stage transitions and solving the right problem at the right level. She shares details on her 12-week Navigate program (scholarsvoice.org/navigate) and why members stay for years.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Learn more at http://scholarsvoice.org/.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey everyone, it’s Jennie, and I’m here with a bonus episode of the podcast because a lot of our community has been working on their blueprints this summer to begin a new project, find momentum for one that’s gotten derailed, or to work on a revision.And obviously stopping to think before you write is critical, but then the question is, what next? And how, how do we keep going? How do we finish what we started? And I invited my friend Kathy Mazak to join me today to have a conversation about this and to get her insights on this topic. Kathy, we’re in a business mastermind together.That’s how we met, [00:01:00] and we, um, immediately connected because Kathy runs a company called Scholar’s Voice, which you can find at scholarsvoice.com. She has an incredible strategic mind, and her work focuses on helping tenured professors get their research and writing out of the endless backlog and actually submitted and published.So it’s a different kind of writing than we normally talk about on the podcast, but I know we have a lot of a- academics in our audience, um, who are trying to write nonfiction or fiction or memoir, but also probably trying to publish the papers that are sitting on their desk. And Kathy helps so many people do that work and do it well, and she has really Amazing systems for doing that.And so she’s gonna talk a little bit about her program and what she offers at the end, um, or maybe at the beginning too. But, [00:02:00] um, welcome Cathy.Cathy: Yay. Thank you so much for having me. So I know that we met in the business mastermind, but I’ve been following you for many years before that, and been listening to this podcast, and been subscribed to this podcast for, like, at least since 2019 when I started to, like, look at other writing podcasts.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: And so it is ... It actually has been, like, a dream of mine to be on this podcast, so it’s, like, so- Look at us ... great that we’re doing this here today. Yes.Jennie: I completely forgot to say that you have a podcast as well. What is, what is the name of that?Cathy: Yeah. The podcast is called Academic Writing Amplified.It has, like, we’re headed towards 350 episodes all about, like, getting your, uh, academic papers out there in the world when you’re a busy professor. So yeah.Jennie: One of the things that I most like about your business is the way you describe it as it’s really mission based. Yeah. It’s, it’s [00:03:00] really about helping academics take control of the narrative.Yeah. Right? Do you- Yeah ... do, will you tell us about that, ‘cause I love that.Cathy: Yeah. So for me, right, like, as a writing coach, so I was a full professor, like I went through, I have a PhD. I, I, I got my tenure track job. I went all the way through all the ranks, um, before I left and started this, uh, academic adjacent business.But I do it because, like, my big, like, mission is that the more, especially women and non-binary academics who get their papers out in the world, like, the more those voices are changing fields, and influencing research, and influencing thinking. And I just think, like, that is just so important. That’s why the business is called Scholar’s Voice, ‘cause it’s about getting more diverse, typically marginalized voices out in these research spaces.Um, so [00:04:00] to me that’s my mission, and when I have ... You know, when, when scholars come and do my program they write an academic mission statement, and really their whole time management, um, and writing project management, and sustainable writing practice is designed to, like, support that academic mission. So it’s a very mission based, uh, business for me.But it’s also, like, a, like my clients, like w- who take my programs are also, like, putting their academic missions, like, right at the center of their work. Which also puts writing at the center. Because to me, like, the writing is absolutely, is, is, like, the path to creating this better career, this focus on writing.Jennie: Well, and an academic has courses to teach and committees to go to, meetings to go to, and, you know, so many other demands on their time. And somebody trying to write a book has- Yep ... not [00:05:00] exactly those things, but probably a day job, and kids, and, you know, aging parents they have to care for, and the dog, and the car, and, you know, it’s, it’s writing in, in the real world.Mm-hmm. And the way you set your program up is you’ve honed this over so many years, i- and it’s designed to, to help people actually get the work done. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit about how you structure that program? ‘Cause I think it’ll be instructive to helping folks. Like, okay, here, you’ve finished your blueprint, now what?So- Yeah ... how do you, how do you get people to do it?Cathy: Yeah, yeah. So the first part is that I think that many people, when they think about writers, right, like if they just imagine themselves as a writer, they think that the ideal is, oh, I have like eight hours a day to dedicate to writing, or all my life, or whatever, you know, dreamy scenario we have in our minds.And I [00:06:00] think, like, for academics, i- the, the... it’s like, oh, I need to be on a sabbatical, or I need to not be teaching. I need to... I cannot be doing any other thing. Um, or I can be doing other things, but I need like these big blocks of time to write. And the problem is, like you’re saying, like writing in real life, like that just doesn’t happen.And then when it might happen for academics is over the holiday breaks, like the semester breaks or the summer, but that also isn’t true because you’re also like, you know, being a mom and, and th- you know, doing things with your family, and managing your house, and maybe your aging parents, and whatever else.Like there’s never a time where there’s like nothing going on. So we have to stop thinking that that’s the ideal and rather think, like what I tell my people, and they- Fight me on this, but at the beginning. But I tell them, actually one to two hours once or twice a [00:07:00] week is enough.Jennie: Ah. AndOutro: they’ll be like, “No,Cathy: no,Outro: no,Cathy: IOutro: need-” Say that again.Cathy: Yeah, no. Say that again. One to two hours once or twice a week is enough, ‘cause remember, like, the low end of that means one hour a week, and the high end of that is four hours a week. And so a lot of times people come in and, and I’m, you know, for your, for the audience here, like, think about are you doing one hour a week consistently?Are you doing two hours a week consistently? If you’re not, then let’s just, like, back up and go there instead of thinking like, “Oh no, I need these big blocks of time that I can never actually get and hold.” ‘Cause that’s the other thing, it’s so hard to hold a big block. Um, like a four-hour block is hard to o- to hold.Uh, and alsoOutro: hard- Oh my gosh, four hours? ... to maintain your energy through.Cathy: No, no, people- What? No ... people haveOutro: all kinds of ideas.Cathy: And I’m like, and, and the other thing too I think is related to this idea, like for my people, right, that the work day is, like, this eight-hour day. [00:08:00] Like, but you can’t ... I’m thinking you’re not knowledge work for eight hours a day.Like, your brain can’t do that, you know? So we really have to start, just, like, dial it back and start with, like, can I get consistency? Consistency doesn’t have to mean every day. Could I get consistent with one or two hours once or twice, or twice a week, and actually do writing during that time so I have project management skills that mean when I sit down I know what to work on, and see how that works?Because guess what? If you did that, you would be ... Like, everything would be moving towards publication, and there would be many more words on the page.Jennie: Well, I love that so much because one of the things that I find is- Well, with writing or business or anything is I’ll say, “Oh, I’m working so hard, and I’m so busy on it, and I’m spending all this time on it,” but really what I’m doing is sitting down at my desk and- Yeahrearranging, you know, [00:09:00] the folders on my desktop again. Or- Yeah ... um, you know, oh, I’ll just go take a little peek over on Instagram, uh, to transition from... You know, like, it’s just- Yeah ... I waste so much time. And-Cathy: Yeah ...Jennie: the- it’s- if the, if the idea is, “Well, I got one to two hours, I’m gonna, I’m gonna use that time.”Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that’s why you have a blueprint, right? Like, this is why you do the blueprint because every time you sit down, you are faced with either the blinking cursor, right, the blank page, or you’re faced even before that with maybe, like, what do I wanna work on? And so for academics, we’re always working on more than one project at once.We always have, like, most academ- some academics are book writers. Many academics are... Almost all academics are article writers, and so you always have... Like, you never just, like, start the research for an article and [00:10:00] then just only do that until it’s submitted and out in the world. You always have things at these different stages, like I call it your publication pipeline, but, like, you have things that are in the idea stage, in the data collection stage, in the analysis stage, the writing up stage, things that are submitted, you’re waiting to get editorial feedback on them.All of that is happening all the time. So you, when you sit down, you’re making a choice between all of these possible projects, unless you have a great project management system, you know? Or unless you have a roadmap that says like, “Okay, well, here’s my roadmap. Let me... You’re my blueprint. Like, let me sit down and start here.”You know? You ha- you need to have that place to start, or you’ll just wheel spin with those, uh, one or two hours once or t- once or twice a week.Jennie: So I’m curious about what other objections people bring to your method. You said the first- Mm-hmm ... objection was, “Well, I, I need these giant blocks of time.” Yeah.What are some of the other objections that you hear to it?Cathy: Yeah. I think a lot of them, and [00:11:00] I think this is so common in, in writers of all kinds, is like, “I’m, I’m gonna let myself down.” Like, the, the, the biggest kind of mental thing is like, “Oh, I’ve tried it. I’ve tried to hold that time before, but I’ve never been successful at it, so if I keep trying, I’ll just keep disappointing myself.”Um, whereas, like, the more structures and systems you put into place, the better those things can hold up those one to two hours once or twice a week, and then potentially grow them even. But you have to have, like, it, it can’t be just I put it on my calendar- Because there has to be, the mindset has to be in the right place.You have to be honoring that time. Like, you- finding the time on your calendar is problem one for sure, like, because people are booked up. But the second part of that problem is I found it, I [00:12:00] put it there, and then when a student tried to make an appointment with me and they just couldn’t possibly find any other time, I put them right on top of my writing.Or what many of the other possible scenarios where you would just schedule over what you had held for writing, and I think that’s a That’s a situation that’s common among everybody with a life, right? Like, “Oh, the plumber said they could come during that time, and here I am just writing.” Just writing. You know, like, that’s the first thing that has to change.Like, you have to f- to honor that writing time just like you would honor that really hard to get dermatologist appointment.Outro: That’s what it needs to be. That’s the level of honoring that we’re, that we’re talking about.Jennie: I’m laughing- Am I- ... ‘cause I’m looking, I, like, literally have been thinking whilst on this, we’re looking at video while we’re recording this at how beautiful your skin is, so it’s hilarious that you mention that.I’m like, “Oh, wait. Maybe I need to be centering the dermatologist more.” [00:13:00]Cathy: Listen, I don’t have a dermatologist appointment. If I did, I would, I would hold that. The one that really resonates for me, and maybe with some other moms of, like, kids, like, school-aged kids, is the freaking dentist. Like, I can’t get a freaking kid’s dentist appointment.Like, I call and they’re like, “Yeah, we’re just all booked up.” I’m like, “How is this possible?” You know, and so if there’s a dentist appointment, I hold on to that. That’s the kind of tenacity we want around the honoring the writing appointments.Jennie: So I wanna stick with this concept a little bit more, because I, I actually was writing about this for the Write Big, uh- Mmbook that I’m working on. Mm. And this idea that the reward of writing is way down the road. It- Mm. We don’t really have any evidence that it’s gonna actually pay off. Yeah. And I think that that tends to be the reason why it’s so easy to say, “Well, this doesn’t really matter,” or, [00:14:00] “I c- shouldn’t really commit to this,” or, “I shouldn’t go all in on this.”And some of that pressure comes from our own selves, as you mentioned. Yeah. But a lot of it comes from the people who love us, who are in our homes even, or, you know- Yeah ... the pressure, like, if you’re trying to protect that hour or that four hours in your week and it’s, you know, “Well, can you do this errand?”Or, “This kid got sick,” or this. To be, to say, “Well, no, that’s my writing time”-Cathy: Yeah ...Jennie: it, it’s like, well, what evidence do you have that that’s worth anything? Yeah. Right? Is ... Do you find that with academics too?Cathy: Uh, I think that, yes, 100%, um, because the payoff is really far away. Um, but even, like, I would argue that another thing happening in people’s heads is that the payoff might be somebody read it and hated it.[00:15:00]Like, so you’re also avoiding it because- You know, like the end result might be that you, like turn it into your book coach, and the book coach says you have to redo it all. Right. You know? Or like- You missedJennie: the mark. Right ...Cathy: you missed the mark. Exactly. And so, but like we just don’t think of that, or so that fear of that we’re gonna do this work, we’re gonna hold our writing time, which feels very selfish and feels like who do you think you are that you’re gonna hold time for your writing, yo…

Full show notes at the publisher

Write Big: Stop Begging to Be Chosen Part 2 Aug 21, 2026

Show notes

Jennie Nash introduces an upcoming series of Write Big episodes that share her vulnerable, behind-the-scenes process of turning Write Big concepts into a Write Big book, thanking listeners and inviting paid subscriptions. In this episode, she revisits her “don’t wait to be picked” stance while confronting her own feelings as her book submission process stretches seven or eight months with rejections.

She examines the discomfort beneath wanting to be chosen—entitlement and exceptionalism, loneliness and the desire for an ally, embarrassment about ambition, doubts tied to leadership and authority, and the burden of carrying the project alone if she isn’t picked. Jennie argues that whether writers are picked or not, the creative road is still hard and what matters is one’s response, which she frames as the core of writing big.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

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