#AmWriting

*/ ?>

Latest Episodes:

Hot Seat Coaching: Choosing to Write Big with Andrew Parella Mar 27, 2026

Producer Andrew Parrella Claims His Own Gothic World

In this follow-up session, Jennie Nash checks in with producer-turned-novelist Andrew Parrella, who returns to the “hot seat” with a major breakthrough. After a week of “staring at the screen and walking the dog,” Andrew realizes he has been “writing small” to keep the project manageable. By leaning too heavily on the existing framework of Bram Stoker’s Dracula, he was inadvertently stifling his own creativity. He decides to “embrace the big,” shifting the story from a cautious tribute into a standalone Historical Gothic Mystery. This evolution includes a high-stakes world-building choice: making vampires a known, though unaccepted, part of the public consciousness in 1920s London, adding a layer of modern resonance and social tension to the atmosphere of dread.

The duo also digs into the “glaring holes” that surface when a writer decides to expand their narrative scope. Andrew identifies a need for deeper research into the Suffragette movement to ensure his protagonist’s familial history feels integrated rather than “tacked on.” By connecting the mystery of the protagonist’s mother to historical activism, Andrew finds a way to ground the supernatural elements in a more 3D reality. As they grapple with the structural puzzle of Point of View—weighing the benefits of including voices from the past versus staying close to the present—Jennie challenges Andrew to choose the perspective that best amplifies the protagonist’s transformation and the secrets hidden within a mysterious Gladstone bag.

Visit Andrew on the web: https://www.andrewparrella.com

Listen to the first session with Andrew:

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real writing challenge in real time.

Today I’m talking again with Andrew Perella, the hashtag am writing podcast producer who stepped out from behind the mic to work on his novel. He completed our winter blueprint challenge and is now working on blueprint revisions, which is such an important stage in the writing process, digging into what you really want the book to be, what you really wanna say.

And Andrew’s told me he just had a revelation, which I’m dying to hear about. But um, before we get to that. Um, when we’re talking here today, the first episode where we did hot seat coaching launched out into the world, and I wanted to ask how [00:01:00] you’re feeling about that.

Andrew: Um, it feels a little weird. Um, you know, I’m used to being behind the mic.

I’m used to, um, helping obviously produce a lot of audio over the years and, and, and helped get a lot of podcast episodes out into the world. It’s strange to. Kind of be featured in a podcast episode. Um, that is a new experience for me. Um, uh, you know, when we recorded it, it was just you and I talking, but now it’s like out in the world and, uh, and, and people can listen, um, and, uh, and, and, and judge, um, which of course they’re welcome to do.

Uh, but uh, but yeah, so it’s a little, it’s a little weird, but it’s fun. It’s fun.

Jennie: Yeah, that’s, that’s you, you hit the nail on the head, the, the judge part. As soon as you put anything into the world, you put yourself up for judgment. And what we’re doing here in these sessions is, is really, in some ways so intimate because we’re getting to watch [00:02:00] somebody’s thinking as it’s unfolding, as it’s progressing before they know what they want it to be.

And we’re watching someone hopefully, um. You know, hone in on their, their voice, their story, their point, their whole thing. And it’s, um, it’s really special to get to see it unfold, I think. Um, so thank you for. Putting yourself out there.

Andrew: I’m, I’m happy to do it. This is, this has been a really value, this is a really valuable exercise for me personally.

So, uh, happy to, happy to share that with folks.

Jennie: So what happened last time was you left with some, uh, homework, which you did. Mm-hmm. And what was interesting from my point of view was when I. Looked at what you did. My first thought was, well, he didn’t do very much. And I, I sort of thought, uh, okay, that’s funny.

Andrew: I kind of felt the same way.

Jennie: Oh, that’s really funny. But then when I read it, it was like, oh no, you worked out a [00:03:00] lot of things that we had been circling around. And primarily the, um, I would say the. Personal familial history of abriana and her connection to this famous vampire hunter. So that all got really sorted.

Um, but the, the one that really made me chuckle was you have this beautiful description of your ideal reader in the blueprint, and it, it’s probably. I don’t know, it might be 500 words. It’s, it’s like, you know, this ideal reader really well, and I can tell that you actually really love this ideal reader and want to I do, I do.

Yeah. It’s really sort of beautiful, um, the specificity of, of who she is, but you added like three lines to the end of that. That was part of what you, what you did. And, um, [00:04:00] one of those lines was. In response to something we talked about, which was, does your ideal reader, are they familiar with Dracula? And you said, now, no.

So that was really interesting to me. Do you wanna talk a little bit how you landed on that? Because I, I do think it might impact the genre.

Andrew: Uh, yeah, I agree. And I, I saw your note about the genre too, which, which, um, I’m, I’d be eager to talk more about, but yeah, I mean, as, as I was thinking about this, I say I feel like I didn’t do much.

I spend a lot of time staring at the screen, uh, over the last couple of weeks and like. Walking my dog and thinking about these questions that you were posing. I feel like I spent hours doing it and like it, like, and, and like the words on the page since we last spoke, don’t, I don’t know, have reflect like the number of, the number of new words on the page.

Don’t reflect that. But I spent, I spent a lot of time thinking about, about that question and [00:05:00] some of the other questions that, that you posed. And I think for a long time I wanted to presume a familiarity with Stoker’s Dracula, um, because it made my job easier. And, and so I think I, I kind of had to come to terms with the fact that though it is a popular book, not everybody has read it.

And while many people, because it’s a popular book, many people have some. Passing knowledge about the structure, about the plot, about some of the characters maybe, but they won’t know. They won’t know the level of detail that I do having read it many times. And so I need to create, I need to expand the world.

I need to create my own world. I can’t just live in Stoker’s world. I need to create my own world. These characters, while they have the same names as the characters in in Stoker’s novel. They are, they become different characters in my world, the [00:06:00] world I’m creating. And so I need to, I need to kind of accept that.

And so it doesn’t matter if you’ve read Dracula before you pick up this book, and these, these characters have a rich backstory that I will allude to. And if you’ve read Dracula, you might pick up on some extra, some extra bits, but this is still going to be a cohesive, discreet novel that you’ll be able to enjoy.

Regardless of, uh, whether you’ve read the, the, the original or not.

Jennie: Okay. That’s huge. Is that the revelation or is there something else?

Andrew: No, that is not

Jennie: the

Andrew: revelation.

Jennie: Okay. So we’ll get, wow, okay. We’ll get to that in a minute. But that, the reason I said it impacts the genre is that you said your ideal right reader wouldn’t describe herself as a horror fan and that her.

Most, she’s, she loves this, um, period of time. She loves London. Um, you know, there’s a lot of things that [00:07:00] connect her to this story, but not horror. And so my thought was, should, should it still be classified as horror? Uh, there are lots of other ways to classify it, you know, historic, um, a historic thriller, a historic mystery.

You know, gothic could be in there, but what, what are your thoughts at this point about that?

Andrew: Yeah, and I, I, I think we’ve, we’ve, we’ve used the term horror when we talk about it, but when I, when I, when I did the blueprint challenge, I think I did kind of identify more like historical gothic as the genre.

And, and, and as, as you say in one of your notes, this is feeling more like a mystery, a murder mystery than it is horror. Like, I feel like the horror genre leans into the gore, and I don’t know that that’s where. My book lives, I think, I think the gothic kind of sense of imminent doom, pervading, you know, every page is definitely something I wanna lead into.

So, so I think gothic is, is [00:08:00] relevant, historic, gothic, and ultimately it is a murder mystery. And so who, and so, and so solving that mystery is the protagonist’s kind of ultimate mission.

Jennie: Right. So the, the sort of moodiness of the world and, and something, yeah. The dread, uh, that’s out there. Right. Um, which fits really nicely, uh, with what you’re doing.

Okay. So what’s the revelation?

Andrew: So it came from the question that you asked me last or two weeks ago now. Um, and one that I’ve been asking myself, which is. Are vampires part of the public consciousness in this world that I’m building. And for a long time I’ve been saying, no, no, no, no. They’re not part, they’re still, they’re still a secret society.

They’re still a secret community. They’re still a secret species. They’re, they’re, and nobody knows about them. And, and anyone who talks about vampires is seen as being a [00:09:00] lunatic. Um. And I was realizing, and, and as you probably saw in the, in, in the, in the document, I was, I, I was trying to explore both, both possibilities.

There’s a possibility where, where the public understands vampire exists and then there’s a, a, a possibility where that it doesn’t, where they don’t understand they exist. And I’ve been leaning towards maintaining the secrecy of vampires among the public. And I think the reason I’ve been doing that, it ties back, ties into what we were just talking about in that I was, I saw that creating like a whole vampire society that, uh, that human, that human society has been interacting with for a number of years, it felt like a distraction from the primary.

From the primary plot, but I’ve been struggling because it does offer some really nice motivation for my murderer.

Jennie: Yeah. [00:10:00]

Andrew: So

Jennie: you’ve been flip flopping back and forth in your mind.

Andrew: I’ve been flip flopping back and forth in my mind until last night. And I was, I was reading, I was reading some of your comments, uh, on my document and I was like, why am I stuck on this?

Why am I hung up on this? Why can’t I make a decision about this? Um, and it’s because. I was writing small, I was trying to keep it, you know, this is something I could manage. Like I was trying to keep it, I was trying to keep it like manageable. I was trying to keep it, I, I don’t know. I was trying to give my, I was trying to like pen myself in, I guess, and lean.

More heavily on the work of Stoker. And it’s like he’s already done his work. He’s already So the, so the, the, the, the revelation I said he’s already done his work. He’s already created his book. Mine is a different book. Mine is, is, uh, a different [00:11:00] world and like. As we have been saying, I need to write big, so I need to embrace the big.

And so that gonna, that’s gonna mean creating more characters. That’s going to mean creating, uh, more exposition. That’s going to mean creating, um, more interactions between these communities. Creating a lot more than I had initially been thinking about. I feel like my original idea was a nice idea. You know, I’m, and I’m using air quotes with a nice idea, but like, I feel like this is now.

Becoming a novel by, by choosing to, by choosing to go big here.

Jennie: Well, you’re, you make me like actually wanna cry because of happiness, because you’ve obviously been listening to the right. Big episodes and Yes. That whole um, thing and winter blueprint, um, listening to me hammer away at. Uh, [00:12:00] that this is all we have.

This is all a writer has, is what is in their heart and mind mm-hmm. And comes from their experiences and interests. And it is so crazy how we shy away from that. We tamp it down, we hide from it, all the things because it’s, it’s terrifying in many ways. And for you to just get that and in both. The conversations we’ve had this morning already, like, like the, um, you were afraid.

Yeah. Afraid of your own creation, which is actually very sort of, I guess that’s more, um, well, more Frankenstein, more Frankenstein than Dracula, but, but you know, it is like the monster of our own creation. Mm-hmm. You know, like, oh, I wanna write this book. There’s a kind of dread in just even saying that.

Yeah. And then, oh, I [00:13:00] wanna write this book and

Right.

Jennie: And that question of am I up to it? Am I capable of, it lies at the heart of. So many problems that we make for ourselves because, you know, we tell ourselves, no, I couldn’t do that or that Yeah, that’s too, I just, I, you know, that’s for somebody else, or I, I’ll keep it small, I’ll keep it mm-hmm.

Attached to this other, I’ll keep it easy. That was what mm-hmm. You know, and, and what you’re saying is, okay, now I’m gonna. I’m gonna write the book I wanna write.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Oh man, that’s so big. So that,

Andrew: yeah, that was my, that was my big revelation last night as I was, ‘cause I still didn’t have an answer for you on that question as late as last night.

And I was like, I don’t know what to say. And then I was like, why is this heart so hard for me? And so that was, that was, that was really nice to kind of make that, find that understanding and that gave me peace and like. I started, I started just throwing words on the page [00:14:00] last night about what that meant.

Um, what that will mean for the story, what that will mean for the, for the characters. So,

Jennie: well, I’m gonna write down this question ‘cause I wanna, I wanna explore that more. Why is this so hard for me? That’s such a good question because what I was doing last night after I wrote that note to you was I did a whole pro con thing.

You know, pro, um, the vampires are here and present and known, or, you know, be, they’re not like, you know? Mm-hmm. Or even c nobody knows if they’re real or, you know, like I was trying to parse out what do I have to do to guide Andrew toward. A decision. So I was thinking more what’s gonna prompt your brain to decide, and your question, why is this so hard for [00:15:00] me is really what the right question is instead of the pro con list.

So that is brilliant. Um, I’m, I’m writing down so good. Um.

Andrew: Well, thank you for pushing me.

Jennie: Oh, well that’s my job. So, um, it’s fun. I mean, it’s fun. And what’s interesting, particularly with this project is as we know, I don’t know Dracula, I don’t read a lot of horror. And so I’m, I am, I am reacting to you more than this story, you know?

So that was, that was why, how am I gonna get Andrew to. Figure this out. I have absolutely no, you know, opinion or, or you know, um, any reason why we choose one or the other. Uh, sure. You know, it’s really what you want. So once you decide that, then does that help with. Other open questions? [00:16:00] Does it sort of have a domino effect in your mind on some of the other things?

Andrew: I think it, yeah, it, yeah, I think it’s gonna affect, I mean, it’s gonna affect, so it’s gonna affect the whole tenor of the book. Um, I think it, it’s, it’s going to change the motivations of so many other characters. It’s going to change. The relationship between, um, uh, between all of the characters. Um, it’s going to change the politics of the moment inside this world.

Um, and it’s going to kind of raise the stakes, uh, a little bit more. And I think in, in, in another way, it’s going to make it resonate more with a modern audience. Um,

Jennie: Ooh. Say more. Why do you think that?

Andrew: Well, I think, uh, I think. Just because the vampires are no longer a secret, uh, society, just because they are, um, part of the public zeitgeist, that doesn’t mean they are accepted by the public.

Um, and so there’s going to be [00:17:00] misunderstanding and fear, um, and uh, and violence all around this, uh, group of individuals, which I think. Again, as I, as I said, resonates with, with, with modern, with a modern audience.

Jennie: Wow. That’s, that’s awesome. Um, so I’m also curious, one of the questions I had, you did some work around a Brianna’s mother who

mm-hmm.

Jennie: Died in childbirth, giving birth to her. Mm-hmm. And, um. She was involved in this whole previous generation’s relationship to the vampire hunting and

mm-hmm.

Jennie: Um, all of that. And it, it’s been a little vague. Um, we’ve talked about it a little, but it sounds like that is becoming more of a connection for, for two things, both for a [00:18:00] Adrianna’s motivation, um.

To, to solve these murders, but also her connection to the suffragette movement, which prior to this draft, I kept feeling a little bit like it was shoehorned in there, like

mm-hmm.

Jennie: Oh, there’s this vampire story and it’s London and it’s at this time, and there’s this young woman in suffragette. You know, and, and now that small change really locks the, the suffragette movement into Aub Brianna’s world and life.

Um, so what do you now know about the mother that feels new or, um, that you’ve pinned down more because of these thoughts?

Andrew: I’m still fleshing that out. But let me, let me say, one of the reasons I think that the suffragette movement element of the book feels a little tacked on is I have not [00:19:00] yet done my research there.

And so it’s like, that’s a really, that’s a, that’s a glaring, that’s a glaring hole right now that I need to fill with more research. I’ve been doing a lot of vampire research now. Um, and, but I need to switch. I need to switch tax and start and start doing more, uh, suffrage, uh, research. Um, but that said, yeah, I think.

A Brianna’s mother, Mina, um, was involved briefly in the suffrage movement because she dies or does she? And um, and, and I think she continues, she continues to play a role in the suffrage suffrage movement. What. What I’ve been grappling with now is how much of that does abriana know how much of that has her father told her?

And I could see that being another point of contention between the two of them. If she discovers later that this was [00:20:00] another, another piece of information that was, that was hidden from her. And so,

Jennie: Ooh, that’s so good. It’s so good. This, this young, yeah, this young woman. All these things stacked up against her that she, yeah.

Sort of knows about or maybe suspects. Um, right. So you’re right. The work is, there’s always in any story who, the question of who knows what, when. Mm-hmm. I mean, particularly in a mystery or thriller, obviously.

Andrew: Right.

Jennie: Yeah. But who knows what, when, you know, can. Change who you choose to be your narrator. Who, who has right point of view, um, who gets point of view in the story.

Uh, you know, do we go to a chapter in somebody’s point of view? You know, all of those, all of those questions hang on. This idea of who knows what went. So, you as the author, are the first person that has to know. Everything. Right. And [00:21:00] then choose to, you know, how like, like putting little breadcrumbs or, you know, planting little seeds, um

mm-hmm.

Jennie: That you have to manage that material. Um, so that’s a big question. And here’s a question. Do you think you need those answers before you can pin the whole story down, or do you feel like. You can pin the plot down and that that is, gives more texture, more, more to a Adriana’s motivation. Maybe it’ll move certain scenes about her discovery of certain things, but do you, what do you feel about that research?

Andrew: About the suffrage research they need

Jennie: to do? Yeah, yeah,

Andrew: yeah. I think it’s going to get, I think it’s gonna open avenues for me. To identify what Mina’s role was, what her mother, what, what breanna’s mother’s role was in the suffrage suffragette movement. [00:22:00] Who some of the players were, who some of the, some of the larger names, the, some of the larger, um, protesters and advocates for it were.

Because the, you know, being a historical novel, I do want to incorporate some historical figures, which I, I think, um, is always a kind of a fun element of, of, of a novel. And so being able to incorporate some of that, I think will lay out a lot of avenues for a Brianna’s story arc.

Jennie: So I just wanna point out for our listeners that what is happening here, um, is that every question we ask or we pose.

Is work, right? So some of it is, you know, work of walking the dog and thinking and saying, well, I don’t know. Or Why don’t I now? Or why is this hard for me? Or, uh, or, you know, all of that. And then now we’re talking about. This question is work, um, figuring out research and, you know, at every turn it’s, [00:23:00] when you do the thing that you wanna do, when you really lean into that, it, it gets harder.

I mean, you’re making it harder for yourself. So,

yeah,

Jennie: I just wanna point that out. ‘cause it, it’s so interesting here as this is unfolding, um, that, that, that is just a, a truth. And the other thing I wanna point out is. Where this story started is where every story starts, which is you have this idea, it’s a really cool idea.

You have this sense of a plot. And, and in some ways, that very central idea of the plot is never gonna change. No matter what you do to this book, it’s, it’s a, mm-hmm. It’s a murder, you know, there’s murders and this young woman’s gonna solve it, so. Mm-hmm. Like, that plot’s not changing, but the, where it started was.

These kind of card work cutout characters, kind of placeholder characters. And if you leave it at that, you can see where that would go, you know? Mm-hmm. It’s like, [00:24:00] oh, mother died in childbirth. Of course child’s motivated to, you know, something. Um, or Oh, distant and emotional dad, you know, you sort of start, start there.

But now by understanding. The whole life that her mother lived and the whole role that she played, and is she even dead or not? You know, like huge, huge questions. Yeah. Make the mother a fully fleshed out 3D character. You know, that’s where you’re gonna go. And then you can see how that will make a Brianna.

A more fully fleshed out 3D character. So instead of, instead of the tropes or the expected things, there’s gonna be these nuances to it and

mm-hmm.

Jennie: Um, specific things. And then your question of what, how much does she know and, and what does she find out? [00:25:00] Um, there’s gonna be plot points that come from that.

Right. You know? Uh, do you have a sense. At this point, are there letters, are there diaries? Is there a friend who hasn’t spoken? Like is there some source of information in your mind that Abriana might encounter?

Andrew: Yes. And I think, and, and I think there are a couple of different sources. I think, I think her mother Mina will have had diaries, um, and potentially letters.

I think also Van Helsing will also certainly have papers. Um. And letters. Um, and, uh, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a prop. He, when he dies, he bequeaths to abriana his Gladstone bag. Um, and I think there’s going to be some sort of revelatory piece of information in the Gladstone bag, and I haven’t figured [00:26:00] out what that piece of information is.

So,

Jennie: is that black bag that doctors had

Andrew: that doctors carry around? Yeah. That the old time, that old, that old timey doctors carry?

Jennie: Yeah. Why was it ca called that?

Andrew: You know, that’s a good, that’s a good question. I don’t know where, uh, what the etymology for, for, for the Gladstone bag is. I don’t know why that is.

Jennie: Interesting. So that’s like a toolbox basically. Yeah. It’s filled, filled with things and,

Outro: yeah. Yeah.

Jennie: Uh, that’s cool. That’s cool. Um, that, I love that. So this is a silly thing. I was so confused. And I know you told me this, um, but that there’s a character, John Seward, who’s a character from Dracula. Mm-hmm.

And Abriana refers to him as her uncle, but he’s not her uncle. Correct. But the reason I continue to be confused is that her dad’s name is also John

Andrew: Jonathan. Yeah.

Jennie: Jonathan.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Does it have to [00:27:00] be or is that just like, oh, Jennie, come on. Surely the reader can handle a John and a Jonathan.

Andrew: Well, I mean, no, that’s a legitimate question because, um, can they, um, especially if we’ve got two characters named Abraham and Abriana, right?

And so like, and so now I, I, I’ve been struggling with that too. I think I’ve been, I’ve been trying to carry forward some of, some of the characters from Dracula. I think I like the character of Seward because he is a protege of Van Helsing, but perhaps the protege bit is important and not the actual name of the person.

So maybe it’s another character that I’ve, that I’m introducing here who was a protege of Van Helsing.

Jennie: Oh. But see, I think that’s where you get into. So your ideal reader you’ve established may not know Dracula right. Inside and out. Right. But you will have a lot [00:28:00] of readers who do.

Yes.

Jennie: And there is a world of people who really love this stuff and who really.

Right. You know, and if you were to change an actual character

mm-hmm.

Jennie: And give it, give him a different name or a different whatever, people will come after you.

Yeah. People will be obsessed.

Jennie: And that’s fine. Right. But

yeah.

Jennie: Is, is that one of the things that could be in the book that those readers. That would delight those readers.

Andrew: Right. I like, I feel like there are a lot of ways I can leave Easter eggs for Dracula fans.

Jennie: Yeah.

Andrew: Um, that aren’t, that aren’t germane to understanding the plot of the motivations of the characters, but that, like a Dracula fan will appreciate, oh, I see what you did there. That was a nice touch. Um,

Jennie: and so

Andrew: I,

Jennie: oh, I think they, they’re gonna love that and

Andrew: Yeah.

Yeah.

Jennie: You know, there’s also then. This is just where my brain goes in terms of marketing. There’s also then a whole [00:29:00] thing of, you know, a connection to a literary, uh, to literature readers, which could potentially be students and scholars and, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: So I don’t, I don’t think you should so quickly dismiss.

John Stewart, but it’s a Adrianna’s father being named Jonathan, I was wondering about.

Andrew: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Jennie: And, and you do not have to care that Jennie can’t keep him straight. Uh, I’m, I’m 62. My brain doesn’t work the same way it used to, but I can’t tell you the number of times. I’m like, wait. Was that like I was

Andrew: right.

Jennie: Really snagging on that. So, um, just a point of information.

Andrew: Gotcha, gotcha. No, it’s worth thinking about though. It’s worth thinking about. But I, I had a, I had a question for you.

Jennie: Yeah.

Andrew: If now is an appropriate time to ask it.

Jennie: Ask it. [00:30:00] Yeah.

Andrew: I’ve been, I’ve been spending a lot of brain power on the question of POV.

Jennie: Yeah,

Andrew: and I’ve been go like, and going back and forth about whether this is going to be a single POV, uh, and Abriana is, Abriana is our narrator, or if it’s more third person omniscient, or maybe this is a dual POV. And I think most recently I’ve been thinking this is a dual POV between Abriana and her namesake Van Helsing, and like.

Which is also create some time traveling, uh, mechanisms because we’ll be, we’ll be talk, he’ll be talking about his experiences, uh, before Abriana was born and as she, as she’s a child, and she’ll be talking about her experiences as a young woman. And so, but now as we’re talking about a Adrianna’s mother, I’m more, I’m wondering like, do I want the dual POV to between, between Abriana and her mother?

Um. What question should I [00:31:00] be considering to help me make that decision?

Jennie: Uh, well this is a huge question, Andrew. Um, there, I feel like you just named so many excellent structural ways forward, right? And the question of what do you ask yourself? You’re asking such good questions, like what do you ask yourself to make that decision?

And. I’m gonna, my answer’s gonna be something really unsatisfying in many ways because it’s, you gotta go back to your why, why are you writing the story? Mm-hmm. Okay. Why does it matter to you? Mm-hmm. What is your point? Who do you, who do you want to speak to? Uh, those fundamental questions are going to inform the POV because if you, well, I know you originally had an idea about the brother.

Um, her brother being a narrator, and you didn’t mention him this time, you mentioned No, [00:32:00] the mom. So a story in which the mom and daughter are narrating and the mom and they’re never going to meet.

Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Those two people in, I don’t think, well, no, that’s not true. Uh, uh, an unden person could meet a, a human walking the earth, um, right.

Andrew: And that may be, that may be part of the climax.

Jennie: Yeah. So

Andrew: of the novel. But

Jennie: that, um, that a mother daughter who, who don’t think that they can, maybe the daughter doesn’t think that they will ever meet, you know, that’s a real particular. Kind of a story. Mm-hmm. So I do think, going back to your why, why do I care about this?

Why, you know, I, I asked you in our, our initial conversation, you know, you’re, you’re a man. You’re writing about [00:33:00] suffragettes, you’re writing about a woman protagonist, a young woman, protagonist, and you talked a lot about your sister.

Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Understanding those motivations and interests and passions because that mother-daughter story will carry a certain kind of weight.

The, if we think of the, the Van Haling being a narrator, that taps into what we were talking about before. How connected is your story to that lineage of

right,

Jennie: of that one. ‘cause now you’re. Not only having Bram Stoker’s character, you’re giving that character a POV voice. Mm-hmm. Which is another level of connection to that mm-hmm.

Literary lineage. Mm-hmm. Um, so that would take it in a different, you can see how that would take it in a really different direction. So POV is, [00:34:00] you know, in some stories it’s quite. Instant. Um, you just sort of know, um, in other stories it’s not, and this one, it, it is not. Um mm-hmm. I think it’s, it’s clear Abriana is your protagonist.

It’s her our core following. Mm-hmm. It’s her. Transformation. We’re interested in her, uh, solving the murder, her understanding her legacy, her coming into her own power. Those are the things we want to see resolved. Um, so whether or not she is a POV though, because there’s a, then there’s, there’s third person.

Mm-hmm. I mean, third person has different, you know, there’s different permutations of it. There’s third person close mm-hmm. Which is sort of functions in some ways, like first person, because in third person close, you don’t go into anybody else’s head. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I sometimes don’t understand why, [00:35:00] why that is even a choice.

Then I read books that do it, that work beautifully, and it’s like, oh, okay. You know? So, uh, you know, everything can be a choice, but, um, you know, so we know that she’s at the center. So then the question I’m circling around to answering your question, how do you help yourself solve this? What other voices would amplify?

Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Her transformation, that’s really what it is, is it’s her story. You know, the, the mother, POV would take it in one direction. Van Helsing would take it in a different mm-hmm. Uh, third person where we’re,

I don’t know, a third person narrator that goes back in time feels odd to me.

Andrew: Okay.

Jennie: I think if it’s, and I’m just talking out loud here. I think if it’s third person, it, it, we could go into all the heads of everybody. Walking the earth [00:36:00] right now. But I feel like if you go into someone you can see I’m betraying my not understanding Vampire vampires very well.

They never die, right?

Andrew: Yes. They’re undead.

Jennie: They never die. So. Okay, so I think, ignore what I just said, A third person, omniscient narrator, could go into their heads as well. Um, right. And go back in time as well. But your time travel, like, like actually having that, that’s a really different story, so.

Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Um, how you’re going to answer is you’re gonna sit with that question of what is gonna make a adrianna’s story resonate the most at that end, right? What, mm-hmm. What knowing is going to, to amplify that the most. And then the second thing to ask yourself, and you might need to do a little more work, uh, in order to answer [00:37:00] this once you get the inside outline done.

Looking at the key scenes. Yeah, you may just see, oh, there is no way that this is gonna work in a certain POV, or I have to have this other POVI can’t convey. I can’t go to that scene. I have to go to that scene. Or alternatively a scene that you can’t go to. Then you think, alright, how will I get this?

Into How do I convey this? I’m thinking of that. Um. You know, there’s so many, uh, there’s so many, uh, what’s the word I’m looking for? I’m thinking of JK Rowling and Harry Potter and all the things that she did, you know, the mirror Yeah. That shows Harry or his parents and the pen sea that, you know, gets the memories outta somebody’s head.

Like all these, um mm-hmm. Mechanical ways Yeah. Of show, showing us what happened.

Yeah. [00:38:00]

Jennie: Back, back in the day. You know, that’s a particularly kind of story with particularly kind of magic. But there, there, you don’t know. You might have this, they’re devices.

Yeah,

Jennie: that’s the word I was looking for. Devices, yes.

That you might have one or two scenes, it’s like, do I need a whole POV just to convey these scenes or is there another way I could get this information in? So it’s two parts, it’s both. Um, I would say heart a heart. A heart-centered thing. What, what do I want? What will amplify my why and my point the most?

What, what I think would be interesting and fun to write the question of, um, then Helsing, do I want to embrace that? Mm-hmm. For some reason I’m thinking of that, um, novel, um, the Hillary Clinton alternative history novel. Um. Called Rodham, uh oh, by, [00:39:00] is it Curtis Sittenfeld, I think. Um, Rodham, but so courageous and daring.

She, yeah, she imagines, um, what would have happened had, had Hillary not married Bill, and it follows the, their lives and their meeting and their love story and all this whole thing, which he just chooses not to marry him. And, you know, like. That’s a certain kind of bravery as an author to, to take that sort of a character.

And you’d be, you’d be doing that. So do you, do I wanna do that? So it’s all those hard questions and then there’s plot questions, so Right. I’m gonna say that for the next, your next bit of homework. Mm-hmm. Um. Is to, I would go to the inside outline and start trying to pin this plot down and noodling around with it.

And we know that it’s going to change based on your research. Mm-hmm. Based on the fact that it always changes. [00:40:00] Um, but just noodle around with it and try it from different POVs. See, see what happens. You know? Take, take the, um, this is the reason, by the way, listeners, why I insist that the insight outline at the beginning is only three pages because Andrew can do one that is a Briana’s, POV only.

What does that look like? Uh, AA and her mom, what does that look like? Abriana and um. Van health sink, what does that look like? Uh, third person, what does that look like? You could do four, three page outlines and it’s not gonna kill you. Right. Right. You could just to sort of get a feel for it, and I promise you mm-hmm.

That what’s gonna happen is one of ‘em is gonna feel more alive.

Andrew: Right.

Jennie: So that’s the sort

Andrew: of, okay,

Jennie: unsatisfying [00:41:00] answer is one of them is gonna feel more alive. So you’re gonna start with your why. Start with your point. Try to sit with that, then try those things on. One of them’s gonna feel more alive.

Okay.

Andrew: So you’re not just gonna tell me which POVs to use then?

Jennie: No, it’s

Andrew: not. That’s not how this

Jennie: works. I know, it’s such a bummer. Um. I mean, it’s such a, such an important question and people often skim past it, but

Andrew: mm-hmm.

Jennie: You know, take, I think it’s the time, like dig, dig into the outline with the intention mm-hmm.

Of landing on POV. How about, how about that for your homework?

Andrew: Okay. That sounds good. That sounds good. I can do that.

Jennie: Okay. Well, I can’t wait to hear how it goes. And for our listeners. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.

Outro: The hashtag am [00:42:00] Writing podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Live with Jennie Nash Mar 23, 2026

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

10 Years of #amwriting: Looking Back and Moving Forward Mar 20, 2026

After ten years of the #amwriting podcast, KJ, Jess, and Sarina are marking a milestone—and a transition. In this episode, the longtime hosts reflect on what the writing world looked like when the show began and share their best advice for writers trying to do meaningful work. They also pass the microphone to Jennie, who will carry the podcast into its next chapter.

Moving forward, Jennie will keep the show focused on helping writers do their best work and make smart decisions about their writing lives. Expect familiar features and new conversations, including Write Big solo episodes, Book Lab breakdowns of listener submissions, coaching sessions with writers across genres, and Margin Notes exploring the thinking behind creative choices.

The mission remains the same: helping writers play big in their writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.

KJ: Hey everyone. I’m kj and you are listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.

So today is a big day. We’re we’re

Jess: big day.

KJ: Yeah. We’re celebrating the 10th year of the hashtag am writing podcast, which I have to say is officially the longest I’ve been able to sustain any job-like thing. Um, and we’re announcing that we’re going in a new direction. So this is really cool. After a decade of talking to y’all, um, Jess and I and then [00:01:00] Sarina, who is at minus a decade. I don’t wanna, um, have decided to step back and hand over the reins to Jennie.

Jess: Yeah

Jennie: It is, it is such a big milestone and such a big deal. And before we. Actually say goodbye to the three of you. I mean, it’s not forever. You’re coming back as guests, all of you, all the time, hopefully.

KJ: Oh, heck yes. Absolutely. You, you, you and I have already planned all the things, so don’t get too excited and, and weepy here folks, but things are just, things are gonna be. New and fresh and more interesting and, uh, more craft filled and more inspirational. When I need inspiration to write, I look for one of our episodes.

That’s Jennie. So I think this is gonna be, this is gonna be great.

Jennie: I think it’s gonna be great too. But before we actually say goodbye, I mean, 10. Is a long time and I thought it would be fun to ask you all what it was like 10 [00:02:00] years ago when you started, and Sarina 10 minus whatever the time is, but what was the writing landscape like as a whole maybe for you, and then all this wisdom, all these years that you’ve shared.

What’s, what’s the thing that sticks in your head the most is what you would want to leave with, with the listeners, what is the your best piece of writing advice from all of this time? So. Jess, why don’t you start? You’re the og.

Jess: Well, I, I definitely wanted to start. For those people who have not been around since the very beginning, you have to understand that it’s really horrifying when people say they go back and like start from the beginning because, um, and we’ll be posting pictures in the show notes.

I have a ton of pictures throughout the years, but we originally, um, we, we would go into this little, I had a tiny, tiny house and we would go into the eve space off of my daughter’s room. And it was raw insulation with a light bulb, and we sat on the floor and it was [00:03:00] like. Maybe at the tallest point, maybe four feet high, so you had to kind of crawl in.

And I have a picture of us, um, podcasting from inside there. And it was, and it was very hot in the summer. It would get very, very hot. My house did not have air conditioning and um. But it was delightful and it was this thing that we had talked about doing for such a long time, and I was so proud of us.

And mainly it was kj. KJ was the one who said, we’re not gonna talk about this anymore, we’re just gonna do it. So she got us into gear and just brought her stuff over to my house in her basket and said, let’s go. Let’s do it. And we bought microphones and everything and it was. It was a big new adventure.

And if you had said, then, how long do you think this is gonna last? I don’t know that I would’ve said 10 years. But there’s, you know, then Sarina came in and, and Sarina has, has been a part of this as a guest since the very beginning too. And a couple of things that I wanted to share were that one time Sarina and KJ and I, uh, were doing a [00:04:00] double, a double header episode and I forgot to hit record for both of them.

And so. We did this incredibly fun, very long episode, broken into two pieces that, um, it went off into the ether and. I did learn from that. And then at the same time, by the time we were sort of on our game enough to be able to really interview people, we went up to Maine to interview Richard Russo and we went to record at his daughter’s wonderful bookstore in Portland, Maine.

And um, I had three modes of recording. I had, um. Two microphones and I had a handheld digital thing that I had on the table between us and, um, mode one failed and mode two failed. And so the only thing we had was, you know, our little digital handheld on the table in between us. So. There’s a lot of stuff like that.

There was the moment I got to text KJ and tell her that we were getting David [00:05:00] Sedaris, there was the day she emailed me to tell me that we were getting Anna Quinlan. You know, and I just so many cool things that, um. It makes me so happy that we’ve produced something good out of all of that. And one last thing.

The, the, the thing that I think I’ve learned the most is there is no one right way to do this. That every single time I hear about, like whether it’s the, you have to write, writer write every day, you have to write every day, or you have to write in a certain way, or you have to write in a certain place, or you have to write with the door closed, or you have to write with the door open, all of those things.

Um, none of those are rules. None of them are rules. They’re things that people do and I’m really glad that I’ve had the opportunity to talk to a lot of people about all the different ways they do it.

Jennie: That’s amazing. Um, kj, do you remember this, uh, light bulb and no insulation time?

KJ: Oh yeah. I don’t remember the time you didn’t record particularly just ‘cause it happened more than once. And [00:06:00] the other thing I would throw in is that the more famous, the guest, the. Less interesting. They were, it was almost

KJ: always true.

Jess: It wasn them. It was, yeah. I think we got all jacked up about like, I don’t know. It just,

Jess: I don’t know.

Wasn David Sari’s advice to young writers was the worst.

KJ: Yeah. It advice really was

Jess: anyone has ever given, it

KJ: was,

Jess: yeah, a writer. He said, don’t submit your work. Don’t ask. Don’t try to get you, wait for people to read it. Wait for people to ask you if they can read it.

KJ: Yeah,

Jess: that’s which this, this is,

KJ: this worked for him. He is an NF one and it will not work for you.

Jess: Right. Yeah, I think that

KJ: my favorite, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna lay it out there. I’m not even gonna put any caveats on that. That won’t work.

Jess It won’t work.

KJ: No. I think it’s always been the most fun when we get in deep into the craft and anytime someone is too practiced with their answers or it’s the same answer they’ve given a million times.

You’re [00:07:00] right. It was cold and it was, um, it just wasn’t good.

Sarina: Yeah. So the more fun people were always the people who were really in it with us.

KJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Jennie: So, Sarina, do you know when you came in, do you know what the, the n minus number is?

Sarina: No, because I was a guest star even before we got out of the, the, um, kgs closet.

It’s true. It’s true.

KJ: One of those not recorded episodes was recorded in the eve space. That’s true. We had, we roped during fairly early.

Jennie: Yeah. In that 10 years, you’ve probably written more. More than, well, how many books have you written in that time? Sarina, I mean,

Sarina: um, 50. At 50 50 ish.

Jennie: That’s crazy. That’s crazy. So what do you know now that you didn’t know then?

Sarina: Oh, so much, so much that, like giving advice, you know, I, I [00:08:00] now feel like less qualified to give advice than I did then, you know how that goes. Like, the job gets harder, not easier. I have a, a good working vocabulary for why, but it doesn’t make me feel like anybody’s, you know, special savior.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. What do you remember about starting in and the, the, um, all these episodes? What sticks in your mind as

Sarina: you know? Um, I loved the opportunity to talk to people who I think are fantastic. I also learned that I am not a fantastic interviewer and that, and that, um. That isn’t a skill of mine that I, it’s, there’s so many things, like I’m so busy, I write so many books.

I can’t learn to be the interviewer that you deserve. So I only. Did interviews selectively and sometimes they were just so fun. Like, [00:09:00] um, the, the person who broke broke the mold about the interview being interesting, the more famous they are was Emily Henry. ‘cause she was Oh yeah. She was fun to talk to.

She was just right there with us and, and ready to have a good time and, and so wise and also so, so nice. And that, that’s really great when you can talk to somebody who’s killing it in your own genre and you know, they’re just so wonderful about it. Um, and then, you know, then we had the odd, very sweaty interview where nothing seems to go according to plan.

And I won’t name the author because I do admire this person very much, but they were not. Willing to take any expertise onto themselves. So KJ and I just sweated all the way through this interview trying to get this person to, to tell us

KJ: Say something. Say anything.

Sarina: Yeah. Tell us how you feel, you know?

KJ: Yeah.

Sarina: And it could not be done.

KJ: Nope.

Sarina: So, you know, that one, I, [00:10:00] I will never re-listened to that one, but, um, but I really, what I got out of it, honestly, was spending time with all of you guys, and you teach me things every single day. And another thing about this job is that I find that I have to relearn the best lessons over and over again.

And when you are compelled to speak lucidly about your job, you know, a couple of times a month, um, it forces a certain reckoning with your own skill and expertise. Like I might say that I, you know, don’t want to be anybody’s, um, masterclass, but I really do know a lot at this point and, um, every time I talk to you guys and we’d, and we gathered together like this, I always learn something.

Jess: I love, I think Sarina is the most amazing explainer and teacher. And so getting to learn, um, especially, you know, in these [00:11:00] recent, uh, nerd Corner Publishing Nerd Corner episodes, it’s been so cool to just learn from her. It’s really, really fun. And, you know, if, if we take it all the way back, like the first, your first romance novels, you know.

We’re just coming out when we just, when we started this thing. It’s just been such an incredible journey from there to where we are now. The other thing that’s been really cool is that this podcast has made me really accountable to my goals and to, you know, not that. You guys also do that for me. But saying things out loud in front of other people has always been my, the thing that has saved me, whether that’s about my recovery or, um, you know, whatever it is.

Um, people talk to me all the time and say, you know, was it hard to come out publicly about, you know, being an alcoholic? I’m like, absolutely not. It’s what’s kept me sober. And I feel the same way about the writing, that when I talk to, um, the listeners that I, I feel like. Someone may [00:12:00] come along someday and ask how that, uh, that goal of mine is going. And, and I like that.

Jennie: Yeah. That’s so good. Kj, what, what are your best memories and, um, best, best advice that you’ve gotten or, or given?

KJ Well, you know, spend 10 years, so it is a long time ago, but I do remember the time Jess was riding her dinosaur to my house to record and got hit by a snowplow. Mm-hmm. Um, that was, that was good times.

Jess: Yep.

KJ: We have Snow Fred Dinosaurs up here. Yep. In New Hampshire. Um, the Sedaris thing that was, that was just funny and also really cool ‘cause I have such deep admiration for, for him, and I’m quite certain that if somehow he ever heard. I, he would not care. We think that was terrible advice.

Jess: What’s also really was really funny about that one is this is an only David Sedera sort of situation where, oh Lord, he, he has said very specifically that he, during COVID, he refused.

To get Zoom, any [00:13:00] kind of zoom sort of situation. So we had to, we went all the way to Concord to,

KJ: this wasn’t Coco COVID, this was before that. No, no, no. I, I know, but I’m saying like, he has, this is not new information. He has said very publicly that he doesn’t do like

Jess: Oh, yeah. So he wouldn’t even, even let us have somebody bring him a laptop to his apartment.Right. And set it up for us, which we were like, happy to do, but

KJ: Yeah. Yeah. We had to go there.

Jess: So he called and yeah, we went to NHPR in Concord and, uh, our, and our wonderful producer Andrew was. Able to get everything connected for us. Um, but it was one of those moments where, you know, we are constantly talking about how to like bend over backwards to get marketing and get people to listen to what we have to say.

And yet, even though he puts obstacles in the path of people who want to hear what he has to say, they will gladly jump through those hoops, uh, for him.

Jess: Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. I mean, you know, so kind of him to do it.

KJ: Yes. Anyway, I mean, that was super funny

Jess: and, and I am looking at my wall that [00:14:00] has the postcard, the thank you postcard that he sent us.

So when he says he sends thank you notes to everyone, he sends thank you notes to everyone because we got one. And from what I understand, he sends them to every bookseller, every person who drives them everywhere. He sends thank you notes to everyone.

Jennie: Wow. That’s what I think of when I think of you, Jess.mThat’s a thing you do too. You’re so good at that. Well, I, I have to say that I have been a listener for this whole time, and the thing that you all brought was. This authenticity, this sense of what it’s really like to do this work. And you all are writing such different things and so accomplished at those things, and your willingness to kind of just open, open it up and share what that looks like with no, you know, varnish over it or, or you know, polished.

Just like, this is what it’s really like and this is who we are and this is how it happens, and [00:15:00] that the work gets done in such. Messy circumstances and, um, that lesson and, and that generosity of showing people that that’s true. Which kind of goes to what you were saying, Jess, like there is no way, but, but also just doing the work is the way and.

That’s what you have all modeled and continue to model, and obviously,

KJ well, that’s what I want people to take away from this. Mm-hmm. Is listen. Okay. We’re joking that 10 years is a long time and 10 years is a long time. It’s a long time to do anything. But also 10 years ago I had one book to my name. And you’ve never heard of it.

It was called Reading with Babies, toddlers, and Twos, and it got me all my other jobs. Jess had no books to her name. Mm-hmm. 10 years ago, Sarina Couple not, you know, just, just, just barely getting started. Jennie actually had a ton of books to her name, but that’s, you know, that’s a different story. So here we were.

10 years ago sat down and said, [00:16:00] we are gonna do these things. And we did not all, I mean, it wasn’t, nobody came and asked us for it. All of David Saris. Um, nobody had, none of us had instant success. You know, no one called up and said, Hey, can I do this? And like immediately got articles in the New Yorker or whatever.

Uh, publishers were not banging down our doors. We. We were banging down theirs and we were all very determined to, um, to make this a professional endeavor. The, the podcast and the writing and the books and all of it. And so I guess what I’m saying is I don’t know where you are listener, but wherever you wanna be in 10 years.

Uh, you know, maybe you won’t get exactly there. I wouldn’t say any of us has gotten exactly there ‘cause we’re not done. But still, we came a long way in 10 years and I would like to see other people, [00:17:00] um, sit down and actually do the thing so you can go to the place.

Jess: That’s been one of the big joys, I think, also of this podcast is seeing other people’s work happen.

Like hearing from listeners that, oh my gosh, I hadn’t started my book. I was trying to get motivated to start my book, and then I created this proposal and now the book is coming out, and that’s, I, I, I just, I can’t, I can hardly wrap my brain around that. Um, it’s been a really amazing progression and the, the group of people that have sort of coalesced around listening to this podcast and getting in, in touch, some of them have become friends and that’s been really amazing too.

Sarina: I hope what some people will take away from this, um, is that very few people who do what we do are truly trained for it. You know, I don’t have an MFAI don’t KJ and just don’t have journalism degrees. They have law degrees instead. But, um, you can, you can [00:18:00] do this on the job training. That’s what we did.

That’s what you listened to us do. And I’m reminded of that, um, quote by El Doctoral. You know, writing a book is like driving at night with the headlights on. You can. You can’t see the whole distance, um, but you can still get to your destination. And there was this Time when KJ and I were debating this quote on this podcast and KJ said, yeah, but the last time we went driving at night, we almost hit a bunny.

And it was true. And I think that what might be the, one of the times I laughed the hardest on this podcast.

Jess: You know, it’s also interesting, I was thinking that, um, you know how I said that there isn’t one way to do things, and even the way that we do things has evolved over time and like Sarina has learned how to, has become a coffee shop writer and has learned how to write in other places.

And I’ve learned how to write in other places and I never used to be able to do that. Um, [00:19:00] so how we get the work done really has. Uh, evolved with the needs of what’s going on around us and what our career needs from us, and, and that’s been really pleasant. Pleasant to watch too.

Jennie: Well, it’s been an honor to listen to you all and to be, uh, working alongside you.

And I am, I’m thrilled to be carrying the show forward. I have lots of big ideas to bring to these episodes To continue to center the writer and the writing and getting the work done in authentic conversations about what it takes, both from a craft perspective and a mindset perspective. So I’ll be reaching out soon for submissions to book Lab because that’s gonna continue with a twist and I will be letting you know about what’s coming. Um, for sure. New episodes with our producer Andrew, who’s stepped out from behind the mic, um, as you heard last week. And I’ll be continuing to coach him forward, which will be really [00:20:00] fun. So lots of good stuff coming and I appreciate your ongoing support and I appreciate.

Getting you to stand on the shoulders of these three incredible writers and entrepreneurs and thinkers and friends, and, um, thank you all.

KJ Thank you. I’m just so glad. Thank you guys to see this, uh, keep going and to become a little bit more of a passenger. I have very much been the driver for the past few years.

Um, Jess had her turn in the, in the driving seat and Sarina said from day one, no, no,

I am buddy, humble guest. So, um, I’m so thrilled that you’re taking over and I am excited to listen when I am not part of it, and to also continue to be part of it. Yay. Thank you guys.

Jennie: Thank you all so, so much.

Hey, why don’t you, uh, why don’t you take us out?

KJ No, no. Jess has to take us out. It’s cool. That’s the tradition.

Jess: Alright. And actually coming up with our, this little bit of the show happened in the eve space, so [00:21:00] it’s a very. Yeah, that’s a sentimental phrase for me too. So until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess: The hashtag am writing podcast. Is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hot Seat Coaching: Producer Andrew Parrella Steps Out From Behind the Mic Mar 13, 2026

Jennie Nash launches a brand-new Hot Seat Coaching series on the podcast—real, on-air coaching sessions where listeners get to hear a story develop in real time.

In the first episode, Jennie brings #amwriting podcast producer Andrew Parrella out from behind the microphone as he begins work on his first novel. Fresh off completing the Blueprint challenge, Andrew shares his gothic horror premise: a Dracula-inspired story set in 1920s London, where Abriana Harker—the daughter of Mina Harker—faces a string of mysterious deaths unfolding against the backdrop of the suffrage movement.

Jennie and Andrew pressure-test the blueprint together, refining the novel’s central point, exploring how Van Helsing’s legacy shapes the world of the story, and identifying ways to strengthen Abriana’s role so the plot is driven by her choices. Andrew leaves with clear next steps—and this is just the beginning: he’ll return in future episodes as Jennie continues coaching him through the process of developing the novel.

You can connect with Andrew via his website AndrewParrella.com

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life. Love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hi, I’m Jenny Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast.

This is something new. It’s a hot seat coaching episode where we’re gonna work through a real challenge in real time with a real writer. And today. I’m joined by a really special guest. His name is Andrew Perella, and he has been the producer of this podcast for many, many years and is stepping out from behind the microphone to write his first novel.

Andrew participated in the Winter Blueprint challenge that we recently completed. Which is to say he answered all 14 of the blueprint questions during our challenge and, and produced a [00:01:00] finished blueprint. And so I wanted to get on with him and talk about what do we do next? How do we go from there to the next thing?

And he agreed to do that to help show our listeners how it goes. And I’m so excited about it because. He just did incredible work and also has so much work to go, so hopefully we’re gonna get to, we’re gonna get to follow Andrew as he does this for a few episodes and bring you along on the journey. So welcome Andrew from Behind the Microphone.

Andrew: So much work to go. Thank you, Jenny. I’m really excited to be here.

Jennie: So Andrew is, has a long career in public radio and is a producer of podcast for many people and is a storytelling guy, you know, as well as a sound guy. So this is, this is a big move. I feel like this is a right big move for you for sure, for deciding.

This is the time to embrace the fact that you wanna do this thing. Does it [00:02:00] feel like that to you?

Andrew: It, it feels like a right big move for me that I’m kind of prioritizing now this writing project for me. I’m prioritizing my project, um, over, over, uh, the projects of others whom, whom I help with projects.

Yeah. So this is a big, big a right big moment for me.

Jennie: It is totally a riping moment and. You’re in the hot seat personal coaching, which I, I really appreciate you being willing to do So, um, where we stand today is, as I said, you, you finished the blueprint, you did all the work, you did the thing. So I’m just curious to sort of check in.

How do you feel? Do you feel like that’s an accomplishment? Do you feel some momentum? Like, what, where are you feeling, what are you feeling? Um,

Andrew: I, I feel like it is a, a really big accomplishment because as we were working through the blueprint, I was getting feedback, uh, from you and KJ Dium about, uh, about, uh, how I was, how I was creating my [00:03:00] blueprint.

It got me, it forced me to think about the book in some very real terms, in ways that I hadn’t yet, and in ways that, you know, I had been kind of thinking about the book in more abstract notions. Um, and like this was putting pen to paper, uh, on so many things to think about, you know, beyond the, beyond the simple plot structure.

Um, and I realized as I was going through this. How much I hadn’t yet considered, and I think this helped to show me where the holes in my story were. Um. And he, even, even as I’ve finished, quote unquote, finished the blueprint, it’s like I finished one inter iteration of it and like already the story has changed since I first started work on the blueprint.

And so already I know I gotta go back and start reiterating on, on, on this, uh, uh, as we go along here.

Jennie: Yeah. I mean, and that’s the point, right? Yeah. Is the whole point is this is a tool that reveals. [00:04:00] What’s working and what’s not working? Is this what I want? Does this reflect my vision? And you get to, to play with that wet clay of the idea.

So that’s really what what we’re doing. But the reason that I thought you’d be such a good candidate for coaching live in this way is your story. It really hangs together in so many ways. It’s so great in so many ways and it, it would be easy to feel like, oh, I’m, I’m not that far. I got this. I could, I could start right?

I can start writing. Yeah. But I hope, I hope what we’re gonna show is, is really pushing yourself to answer core questions is gonna just make it so much stronger.

Andrew: Absolutely.

Jennie: So, um, all that being said, do you. What do you think the best way to share what you’re writing with our listeners is? Do you think reading your book jacket copy feels good or do you wanna just say it out [00:05:00] loud?

Andrew: Um, I feel like the book jacket copy, I. Um, that I, that I wrote doesn’t quite, doesn’t quite capture, I think in many ways what I think the book is going to be so Well,

Jennie: and we’re gonna actually get

Andrew: to that. So I, and we’re gonna get to that, I think. Yeah.

Jennie: So why don’t you just, just share what, what it is.

Andrew: So, uh, the premise of the book is this happens, uh.

Uh, the, the novel, it happens 20 years after the events of, uh, Bram Stoker’s Dracula. Um, and so. It involves some of the same characters, and then it also involves the next generation of these characters. So these, those characters children. Um, the, uh, our protagonist is a Abriana Harker, who is the daughter of Mina Harker, who was, um, kind of the female, uh, lead in, in, in Dracula.

And she was, she was bitten by Dracula in, in the original novel. [00:06:00] Um, and she is, uh, someone who is defended, um. Uh, by her, uh, by her friends and, and counterparts in, in that story, Abriana is her daughter. And Abriana is now facing a similar challenge. There are bodies that are turning up around her circle and uh, they appear to have similar injuries that Dracula’s victims had 20 years ago, and some people recognize that and are.

Going to begin trying to unravel the mystery. And this is all set against the backdrop of the universal suffrage movement, which is also happening in, uh, you know, 1920s London, where, where the novel is, novel is set. And so in broad strokes, that is, that is the, the, the primary premise of the book.

Jennie: So the genre is horror.

Gothic and I, I did some, some digging. I’m not a big reader of horror, so I did some digging into the genre to make sure that that was right. Because there [00:07:00] there’s also thriller elements. There’s mystery elements. Mm-hmm. There’s, you know, there’s other elements and it is, I always liked to, to test. Is this right?

Is this right? Could it be tweaked? Could it be better? And it feels, it feels like there’s really no question about the genre. Right. Do you feel that

Andrew: I, I feel that, I feel definitely, definitely feel that. And I think I, I, like gothic is, is, is a genre that I really enjoy and I want to develop some of those gothic themes in the story a little bit more than I have so far.

But yes, I think gothic and, and horror is very much where, where this, where this book lives. Yeah.

Jennie: Yeah. And that is something I wanna talk about for sure when we get to the inside outline. But I wanna start with, um, the second question of the blueprint is what’s your point? And I know this is something you’ve struggled with a little bit.

Yeah. Um, but so the current point that you have here is. I feel like maybe this came from me. So, [00:08:00] uh, I, it’s, you can’t change the world without upsetting people. The more you want to change, the more people you upset, and that’s fine, but it, but it doesn’t, it does, it doesn’t feel like it captures. There’s a real moral, philosophical debate at the center of your story.

Right.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, the, the characters are certainly, uh, in the midst of a paradigm shift, you know, there’s the, there, the, the world order is changing as, uh, as suffrage is, is being opened to more and more people. Um, and times a world order like that changes. There are people who are for it and there are a lot of people who are against it.

And so I think that’s. That’s an element in, in play here in the, in the novel. And that, and that’s something that I wanted to explore. And obviously there are parallels in current times as well for, uh, for this, for this sort of change. So I think that’s, I think that’s, that’s certainly, that’s certainly part of, uh, of, of [00:09:00] the story.

Yeah.

Jennie: So I was, when I, when I review a blueprint, and for anybody who’s, who’s got one all on the page and, and you, you like it and it feels pretty good. The step is to, to really pressure test everything. So I, I read through the whole thing. I love looking at a blueprint. A blueprint as a whole rather than piece by piece.

And in this particular case, it’s like this. Yeah. This point feels bloodless, which is something we definitely don’t want in this story. So I went back to your why and your why is really powerful and really personal and really political. Um, it’s, it’s fiery, it’s articulate, like there’s so much about your why that I.

You can see my comments on the page. Mm-hmm. Not the listener, but Andrew can Right where I was going. Great. Yes. Very powerful. Awesome. You know, it’s just, it’s excellent. And you had some lines in there [00:10:00] about the, the monster in this story is not the vampire, but a man who is refusing to change with the times basically.

And. That felt to me, given everything else you’re saying about the parallels between this, the milieu of this story and the milieu we live in right now, the, the fraught. Climate, political climate. Cultural climate that felt more potent as a point. And I, I wondered what you thought about that.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I think that that is as mu that is as much a part of the, the premise as I’ve conceived it, as, as anything else that I’ve, I’ve said, um, you know, the, the, the.

Spoiler alert, the the murders aren’t being committed by, by the vampire, uh, or vampires. Uh, the murders are being committed by an old white dude who is not [00:11:00] happy with how the politics are shifting under his feet and how the world is changing around him, um, and is trying to, at all costs, prevent that from happening, even sacrificing a bit of his own humanity in, in the process.

And so I think that is. Is is something that certainly resonates, but I think it yeah. Is, as you say, there’s a passion, there’s a blood there that in in, in the why that didn’t quite make it to my point. Um,

Jennie: yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would suggest for the next iteration mm-hmm. To, to really push that point and.

It’s gonna keep changing, it’s gonna keep, um, you know, getting refined as you go. But I think it’s important to move it forward as you keep writing. So the, um, yeah, something that’s, that’s fiery and that’s, um, about, ‘cause that’s a, that’s a, you’re flipping an important trope in a. In a [00:12:00] classic novel, right?

Mm-hmm. That it, it’s not the vampire. So like, why that? Why, why are we flipping out? What is that showing us? What is the point of, of doing that in the story? That, so I would really play with that. Um, does that make sense? Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Yes, it does. Okay. Yes, it does.

Jennie: Okay, so the next thing I wanna talk about is your super, your super simple story.

Mm-hmm. And. What’s interesting about the super simple story is, I mean, I love everybody always. Here’s me say this, who’s listened to me for very long, but I love a constraint on in creativity. And this, trying to get this story in a really short space often reveals something. And what it, when it was revealing to me is, so you’ve got, you’ve got a abriana, she wants to, uh, become a doctor.

Because of her mother’s, [00:13:00] her mother died in childbirth with her. Um, so that’s the, that’s the storyline. You’ve got the murders that are happening and, and then you’ve got the universal suffragette movement, this political debate that’s going on. So there’s these three threads and. Even in the super simple story, it was feeling a little bit like they’re disconnected.

I don’t think they’re disconnected in your mind. I think they’re disconnected on the page.

Andrew: Okay.

Jennie: So I wanted to just ask you to articulate that a little bit more. ‘cause you hint in the um, book jacket copy later, AA has things in common with Finn halting who’s. Her uncle, the Vampire Hunter. Are you comfortable sharing what those are?

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: What those commonalities are?

Andrew: Yeah, I think, I think, [00:14:00] um, uh, Abraham Von Helsing is, is a character from the original novel, um, and he helps guide the team to, uh, uh, find, track down and destroy Dracula. Um. In the world of my novel, his understanding of vampires changes as he’s, as he continues to do research on them.

And so he’s discovered, he’s discovered more about them. That will spell out a little bit more in the, uh, in the novel, but. First and foremost, and one of the, one of the primary roles he plays in the, in, in the original novel is a, as a doctor. And that’s one thing that Abriana really admires about him. He becomes a bit of a, a, um, a surrogate.

Parent to her with her mother dying and her, uh, her father’s grief, turning into a little bit of emotional distance from, uh, from Abriana. And so von uh, van Helsing kind of fills that gap and so she associates her. I think her desire [00:15:00] to become a doctor stems from both her birth, you know, ultimately killing her mother, but also because, and, and, and wanting to prevent that from happening to other women, but also because she’s seen, you know, van Helsing.

Perform his, his service as a doctor. He, she’s seen it in action and what it can do and wants to, and wants to, wants to emulate that. And so, and, and I think one of the, one of the things that, that I get excited about is incorporating a little bit of like historic realism into, into the novel as well. And there was in, uh, the 1920s a, a medi, the London School of Medicine for women.

Um, it had it, it had been. Open for a, a decade or so. It was still a fairly new school at the time. And so that there was an, uh, a real place that she would’ve been able to go and get an education is something that, uh, is something that I’m, I’m excited to have part of, part of the novel and like that school wouldn’t have been possible if it was not for the Women’s Liberation [00:16:00] Movement, which resulted obviously in the universal.

In the universal suffrage movement. And so all of that I feel, kind of ties, ties together in a way that I haven’t explained very well in my super simple copy, super simple story explanation there.

Jennie: So, so that’s what I’m trying to get at is Adrianna is not just some random young woman. No, I mean she’s, she’s very clearly descended from.

A, a particular, uh, family who’s had a particular thing happen and you know, there several generations. So have you designed her as a protagonist using those elements of the family yet, or, or is it more kind of just convenient that she’s there? Does that make sense?

Andrew: I think so, [00:17:00] and I think it’s probably somewhere in the middle.

I think I like the idea of tying her into these characters that who have an existing history, and it then gives her a little bit of, a little bit of, uh, gravitas for the listener when they, when they start digging in that maybe they, maybe they, maybe they have read Dracula, are familiar with those characters and so, okay, this is the next, this is the next generation.

But yeah, I mean, I think Abriana reflects. A lot of other things that, that aren’t in, that aren’t represented in the original novel. Um,

Jennie: I guess what I, I guess what I’m saying is it feels, one of my concerns is it feels as if you could write this story about Adriana and not have her beat from this family.

She could, she could be kind of. Anyone Gotcha. In this [00:18:00] situation? Gotcha. Does that, am I, am I missing, am I missing that? What would make, you know, let’s just, um, I know there’s, there’s several women in the novel who have, have important roles. So I’m gonna pick a name that’s not them. Let’s say that, uh, there’s a young woman, Catherine, you know, not connected to, um.

Ben Helsing not connected to her mother, not connected to that whole thing. And same time period, same motivation. She wants to be a doctor. Maybe she had someone in her family die, and that’s her motivation. You know, like suffrages, like that whole story could still play out with Catherine. Uh, am I wrong? I want you to prove me wrong.

Andrew: So like, yes, it could, I feel like, I feel like one of the things I like about tying in Van Helsing is it, it presents a red herring, um, in the sense that it’s like, oh, we all think. [00:19:00] That we’re gonna find out vampires are responsible for all of these deaths. Um, like, I don’t know, like, and I, and I can kind of slow burn the, you know, the reveal of vampires in general and, and, and how they end up not actually being the antagonists in this By, by which is So by borrowing, by borrowing his name and sharing his glory a little bit.

Yeah.

Jennie: Right. But back to Catherine, our, our mm-hmm. Mythical protagonist.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Same thing could happen there. Everybody thinks, oh, the vampires are back. Um, Catherine, you know, they, they keep happening around her. She’s gotta figure it out. You know what I mean? So,

Andrew: well, so, so

Jennie: is

Andrew: Yeah,

Jennie: no, go ahead.

Andrew: The question, the question I, I think that I’ve been grappling a bit with too is do we exist in a world where.

Is, does the novel, does the world of the novel, a place where people [00:20:00] have recognized the efforts of Van Helsing and that vampires exist? Is that, is that common knowledge in this world, or is all of that still unknown to folks?

Jennie: Okay, this. Is the piece that I’ve been missing.

Andrew: Okay.

Jennie: That’s exactly the piece that I’ve been missing.

That’s totally it. That, so here, this is world building. If anybody’s writing anything with magic, fantasy, sci-fi, even just straight up history, and maybe it’s a retelling or a re um, imagining, you often know those, those questions for sure. And especially for where for. My understanding, I, I’m, like I said, I’m not a horror reader, but I do know a little bit about Dracula, but the, it was a, a sort of science versus, um, like science played a big role in that.

What [00:21:00] can we know? Mm-hmm. What can we prove? What is, what is unknowable?

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Those sorts of things. Absolutely. So that, you’ve gotta know that here. Mm-hmm. Has it been proved? Is it. Accepted knowledge. Is Van Helsing a hero who’s locked away in his lab continuing to, you know, with funding and whatever to research his thing?

Or is he some. You know, recluse who was shamed in the public eye and people think he’s crazy, like that’s gonna color everything. Mm-hmm. Okay. And that’s gonna be, that’s gonna then be the answer I’m looking for. Like, why Adriana as our protagonist and not Catherine. Right. So she’s gonna have that, you imagine her going to medical school with.

Those two different stories behind her, how different it’s [00:22:00] gonna be when she shows up in the classroom and people know, you know, or when they know who she is.

Andrew: Right? Yeah.

Jennie: So there, there’s a real, the reveal to the reveal to the reader about her connection and who she is and then her, her reveal to the society she lives in about.

Who she is and you know, the meaning she makes from all that you know, and did, no matter what you decide about Van Helsing, she then you have to all just also decide about her. Does she agree with the prevailing wisdom? If everybody thinks he’s a hero, does she think he, he is too? Or does she think he’s kind of whacked and then, um, learns otherwise or, you know, like the or, or the other way

Andrew: around?

Jennie: Yeah. Or the other way around. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So yeah, this is the piece that’s missing is I feel like you have, and this is what I felt the second I heard you talk about your story. I’m like, oh, this could be so [00:23:00] good. Like, this is so potent, but you’re like, you’re missing it. You’re just, it’s like it’s, it’s like it’s not landing as as solid as it should, and I think this is why.

Right. I had not been able to figure it out, but. And you have, so I gotta make sure I understand the character. So a Adriana’s dad is the brother of Van Helsing.

Andrew: Uh, they’re not related in the original, in the original novel. They’re, they’re, uh, they’re just friends. Okay. Okay. But they’re, but they’re clo Okay.

They’re, they’re close friends. And because Van Helsing ultimately saved both of their lives, uh, he is kind of a, a, a surrogate uncle. So, uncle, uncle in quotation marks. Yeah,

Jennie: yeah, yeah. Uncle is Is an honorific.

Andrew: An honorific, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yep.

Jennie: That confused me. Okay. So I thought that there was a direct lineage there.

Andrew: Right.

Jennie: But there’s not No,

Andrew: no genetic link. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:24:00]

Jennie: But a link through. Her mother a link to Van Healthing Through the mother.

Andrew: Yes.

Jennie: Um, and, and what happened to her. So, okay. Yeah. We have to understand his role, who he is, what he’s doing in the world, what people think of him. Mm-hmm. Um, and also this is important for.

Just the environment of your story, because we’ve got this division, political division around the suffragette movement. Is there, is there o, are there other, um, like, I wanna say mood, like what’s the mood of the place where she’s, this story’s taking place? Is it, you know, a creeping sense of doom on many levels?

Uh, is the do the vampire, like, is the fact, oh, maybe the vampires are [00:25:00] back. Does that make sense for the times? Um, like you and I are talking right now in 2026, um, during very extreme political upheaval and also during the time when there’s this been this kidnapping of this prominent. Um, media personalities, family member that hasn’t been solved.

And there’s this sense like, well of course this is happening now. Like this, you know, is there a weird, are we gonna have a, um, famous serial killer? Story unfolding in our time. Right. Like, that’s what I keep thinking, right? Like there’s a sense of, of course these things are going to start happening now ‘cause things are, feel so unstable and unsettled.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Is that what’s going on there? [00:26:00]

Andrew: I mean, I think potentially yes. I, I’ve, because yeah, I feel like this, it, it, it, it was an unsettled moment politically. And also a little bit medically as they as like the medical establishment is transitioning from miasma theory to germ theory. And that was kind of late, late, uh, 19th century, early 20th century.

But like there’s, there’s kind of been a, a paradigm shift there. So I think, I feel like yeah, there does wanna be, as you were saying, kind of like this constant, creepy. Creepy feeling. Yeah. I’m like, I’m like to lean into the gothic, like I thought, like, I really want that to pervade every, every chapter, every page.

I want that kind of like creeping sensation that that doom is around the corner. Um, that, that

Jennie: Right. And doom for many sources. Right. Because I think that that’s kind of one of your points.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Is well, what I’m going back to what [00:27:00] the point, point was. The point we’re kind of, um. Leaning toward is people who review, refuse to evolve.

When the world demands, it can become monsters. So the world is evolving in many different ways and probably getting the opportunity for a lot of different people to have to evolve in a lot of different ways. It’s not just one way. It’s not just like, oh, get on this bus, or you’re missing. Get on, you know, what’s the metaphor?

Like you’ll miss the boat if you don’t get on the boat. But it feels like there’s all kinds of boats one, one might miss here, right? Um, I think so. And so that’s that. Yeah. Okay, so, so in terms of what to do next, I think your, your homework here is you’ve gotta get to know Van Haling. Yeah. And the, and the world a little bit better.

So I would do some character [00:28:00] development work on, on him and what the world thinks of him and what a Brianna’s stepping into the, the light by. Insisting on going to medical school does to Van Haling. Does it delight him? Does it challenge him? Does it, um, you know, what does he think of that? I think that’s important.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Um, to know too.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Um,

Andrew: a couple, a couple of things that are occurring to me. I think I had taken for granted the reader’s knowledge of the events of Dracula, and I don’t think I can do that. I think I need to. To develop these characters for my own, as you’re saying, I, I gotta, I have to develop Van Van Hels, the Van Helsing character.

I have to develop him for, for my own purposes for this novel. Um, which makes a lot of sense.

Jennie: Well, that’s actually a really good question. You defined your ideal reader in a way that I thought was. [00:29:00] Completely delightful. Like she was so fleshed out. She felt like a, a full on character and I was like, oh, I know that.

I know that woman. I loved it. It was great. But an important piece you missed in that is you said that she enjoys books about. London, the city and maybe some horror and gothic, but what is her relationship to Dracula, your ideal reader? You need to know that.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Jennie: My, you know, this is what’s funny sometimes about being a book coach is I always say that the, the writers, the god of their own story, I can’t possibly know everything that the writer knows about what they’re writing about, what they’ve read, what they’ve thought, how they’ve lived, any of it.

And, and in this particular case, I don’t read. I don’t read horror. I, I, I could barely tell you the, the bear outlines of Dracula if, if press, [00:30:00] um, I mean, I know the, you know, cartoon, the cartoon version. I, I, I could tell you a little more about Frankenstein only because I, against my will, watched the recent, um.

Retelling.

Andrew: Oh yeah. I haven’t actually seen that yet.

Jennie: So I say against my will because I was like, oh my gosh, this is too much for me. But um, you need to know if, so here’s a perfect, let me finish my sentence. You need to know if your reader is a fan, is a reader, is a immersed in the gothic world, is gonna know all these things.

Know all the tropes and know all the connections or not. And the, um, perfect example of that is, remember that book, um, pride and Prejudice and Zombies?

Andrew: Yes.

Jennie: So that appeal to people who love Jane Austen.

Outro: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Like, you’re probably not gonna read that book if you’re not a Jane Austen [00:31:00] fan, but if you are a Jane Austen fan, you’re, you cannot wait to get your hands on that.

And. Also probably if you’re a zombie horror fan, you know, you would delight in that even if you didn’t understand the depths of the Jane Austen piece. But that book spoke to such a very particular audience that turned out to be a massive audience. Right, right. So, yeah,

Andrew: yeah, yeah.

Jennie: You know, I think you need to make a decision.

Are you writing for someone like me who’s, who’s like, I don’t know, like I think when I first read it, I was like. Who’s Ben Sing? And you’re like, he’s the famous guy from the thing, right? So are you writing for someone like me or does your, a avatar, your ideal reader hear, you know, does she watch the movie?

Does she, does she read the books? Does she gobble that stuff up?

Andrew: Right? Yeah.

Jennie: What, what is your instinct right now?

Andrew: Singling out one or the other is going to, is going to change [00:32:00] how I write the book. Um. What is my instinct? Uh, I dunno. When I think about the character that I, that the character of the reader that I fleshed out in the blueprint, um,

Jennie: yeah,

Andrew: I don’t think she necessarily would have read Dracula.

She might be familiar with the story, but she might not have, um, uh, have read, uh, Dracula itself.

Jennie: Okay. So yeah, let’s get to, let’s get really clear on that. Mm-hmm. Because it’s gonna really change. And for those listening. The ideal reader. Oftentimes people think it’s just a throwaway part of the blueprint because they kind of can just picture, you know, generally who their reader is.

I mean, first of all, no part of the blueprint is the throwaway. Uh, something really important can come from any one of these. So really go back to your ideal reader. And think about them in relationship to their story. ‘cause this [00:33:00] conversation reveals how drastically you would change the writing of this book, depending on your ideal reader’s relationship to the, to Dracula.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: And, and there’s no right answer. Either answer’s. Great. Right. So, um, so that’s, I just put that on the list of, of things too, um, that you’re gonna be thinking about. Um. So once you get that, so yeah, the understanding of of Van Healthy’s re reputation in the universe right now is going to be the way that you bring your reader up to speed a little bit.

Right? Like famous Vampire Hunter still doing his thing or, or. Famous vampire hunter, you know, shamed and, uh, not doing his thing. Um, that’s, those are gonna tie [00:34:00] together,

Andrew: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennie: And cement down the world that we’re coming into, um, more.

Andrew: Absolutely. No, I can, I can see how that will change things.

Yeah.

Jennie: Okay. So, um. We’re not gonna have time to dig, to dig into this yet, but I just wanna touch on it so that, um, when you’re doing this work, you can be thinking about, um, thinking about this piece, but the, um, there’s a cause and effect trajectory that’s obviously what the inside outline is. And at some really key places in yours, you miss an opportunity to to tie in.

So we always want our protagonist to have agency to be making the [00:35:00] decisions that cause things to get worse or cause them to be in a worse position or, um, and, and there’s several places in your inside outline where. Things just sort of happen, which is the plot, and then she sort of happens to be there.

But if you understand better these parts of her and her connection to this, uh, the not her uncle now, uh, her, this guy, uh, and her connection to what’s happened with her mother and those things, then we wanna use that to push the story. To push the, so the plot has to serve the story. So the things that happen are gonna push your character in ways they don’t wanna be pushed to make decisions that are gonna then push them further and, and they’re gonna get deeper and deeper each time.

And [00:36:00] you have a murder mystery. So each murder, we wanna feel more and more as if. She is boxing herself in by what she does. By what she thinks. By what she believes, by what she wants. And the, the CLO is gonna squeeze her to the point where she asks to make a, a big decision, you know, comes, that’s the climax, comes to that like, will I, in this case, um, confront.

Uh, both the murderer and her father is kind of where it all ends, so,

Andrew: yeah. Yeah.

Jennie: You know, it’s not gonna be just like, and now we arrive at a place where she confronts the people. It’s gotta be like. Gut wrenching along the way. Right,

Andrew: right.

Jennie: So, um, there’s a lot to say there, and I made some comments on the outline, which, which you’ll see [00:37:00] sort of my thoughts and thinking there, but I actually think that this conversation we’ve had is gonna be the solution because the, the big question I had was, is it coincidental that Adriana is.

These murders are sort of following her around and people think that it, she might be responsible. Is that coincidental or is there something real there? Yeah. Do you know the answer or not?

Andrew: I, I, I’m, I’ve been thinking about that and I think there are ways that it’s not entirely coincidental. I mean, obviously she’s not causing the murders, but I think, I think yes, I think there are things that she does that prompts these.

That prompts these women to become targets of the murderer.

Jennie: That’s what I hoped you were gonna say. Yeah, because that’s what’s gonna, that’s like, it’s, I think this was on the page and maybe you didn’t realize it, but. [00:38:00] Being friends with Adriana is a little dangerous,

right?

Andrew: Yes. Yes. I think that could be, that could definitely be part of the part, part of the, part of the theme there. Yeah.

Jennie: So that, that shouldn’t, that shouldn’t be coincidental. Well, and this is what’s so, so great about the blueprint and showing it to a critique partner or a writing group or an editor or a book coach, is.

Somebody else can say, do you see that you’re doing this thing that’s actually really cool? Or do you, do you see that you’re not doing this? Like it’s things are just revealed. So,

Andrew: yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Jennie: So let’s just wrap this up. Your next iteration, you’re gonna work on sharpening your point. You’re gonna work on sharpening the super simple story so that the Dracula connection is clear.

Dracula connection to your [00:39:00] protagonist is, is more clear and you’re gonna under in order to do that. You’re gonna understand then Helsing, the world that we live in and what his relationship of that world is 20 years after Dracula. What, what is happening with him? What is happening with the world? And and that’s gonna help inform the connection between your.

Protagonist in these things. And then I think you already answered the ideal reader, but just make sure that you’re comfortable with that, that she’s not a super fan. This is not a insider. Um, folks who know and love and read Dracula, it’s, it’s more someone like me. He was a little clueless. And then if you have time to dig into.

How that all plays out in the cause and effect of the inside outline. That’s, that’s where I would go. [00:40:00] So it’s, um, I had an agent, my first agent, way back in the day, used to say, run it through the typewriter one more time because we were actually writing on typewriter. Yeah. Right. Back in the day. And, uh, that’s kind of what I feel, you know, with these ideas in mind, like, run it all through one more time and let, let it all flow through One more time.

Um, and we’ll see where it goes.

Andrew: Excellent. No, this sounds good. This is, this is some good homework. I’m looking forward to, to digging into this now.

Jennie: I know. I can’t wait to see too, and I hope our listeners have enjoyed, uh, going along on this conversation and gotten some inspiration for what, how to pressure test your own, uh, blueprint.

And if you’re not doing the blueprint. Uh, also fine, but pressure test what you’re writing. Uh, this is just a tool for doing that, but there’s this kind of questioning and making sure that things are not [00:41:00] assumed. That’s, that’s the key, right? It’s that you, you sort of make these assumptions, but we have to articulate them and pin them down so that we can use them to make a much better story.

Well, thank you Andrew. Really thank you for being willing to, uh, expose yourself in this way. Come out from behind the mic, uh, share your journey. It’s not easy to do that, and I appreciate it.

Andrew: Well, it’s, it’s fun. Thank you for pushing me outside my comfort zone. Uh, I’ve really enjoyed this.

Jennie: I have too. So, uh, for our list.

Thanks for joining in. Now let’s get back to work.

Outro: The hashtag am writing podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone [00:42:00] deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

"I Had the Full Heart of the Question In My Hand." Mar 06, 2026

It’s very rare for me to demand that the readers of my #AmReading substack pre-order something. And the bar to be my “Just One Book” is high. But here we go:

The book is The Fountain—debut speculative fiction from Casey Scieszka—and you’ll want to read it, but even more, you’ll want to hear us talk about what it took to pull this big, beautiful novel from her Tuck-Everlasting-loving soul.

And here’s the question her agent asked her that is now stuck on a post-it on my computer and may be my next tattoo:

How can you reveal these things in action?

Casey is reading:

Open Throat by Henry Hoke (“It’s funny and deeply tender and unlike anything I’ve ever read.”

Follow Casey on Instagram and Substack: Spruceton Inn.

Transcript Below!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell’Antonia

This is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. I am KJ Dell’Antonia, and today we’re talking with Casey Scieszka. And I meant to ask Casey how to pronounce her last name before we started. How’d I do?

Casey Scieszka

I think you did great. Especially over in Poland, we say “SHESH-kah” over here, but I’ve been corrected many times. I think it’s supposed to be more like what you said. So… bravo!

KJ Dell’Antonia

Okay… SHESH-skah… SHESH-kah… all right, off we go. Y’all, you’re going to want to know how to spell it, because you’re going to want to order Casey’s debut novel, The Fountain, and it is spelled S-C-I-E-S-Z-K-A. But to carry on with my introduction, Casey is a ridiculously well-traveled innkeeper in upstate New York, and we are just going to let that fantasy sit there for a minute without talking about the amount of snow she’s going to be shoveling tomorrow, because we’re recording this in January and are talking about the fact that I can see her and she is wearing a full-on puffer. So… romance, Hallmark, innkeeper, debut novel—all the things—and also a puffer and snow shovels and pipes and, yeah. You will hear this episode just as Casey’s first book, The Fountain,, comes out, and that is what we’re here to talk about, because I happened to have gotten an advanced copy of it, and I happen to actually have read it—which does not always happen—and even more relevantly, loved it. Therefore, here we are. And Casey, welcome to Hashtag AmWriting.

Casey Scieszka

Thank you so much. I am so thrilled. I’m like really just beyond that you enjoyed it so much.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Ah, I’m so—I’m, I really did. I will be encouraging everyone to pick it up. It’s mind-boggling that it’s not… and it is your debut. So I’m going to go ahead and—is it, is it really? Like, I mean, I know it’s your debut, but like, is it the first book you’ve written? Oh no, you’ve, you’ve got a kind of a memoirs situation out, right?

Casey Scieszka

I wrote like a young adult travelogue with my now husband that he illustrated about when we lived like in China and West Africa and wound up literally out in Timbuktu. So I had some experience that way, but that was nonfiction and for a totally different audience. All that said, this novel is my first published one, but you better believe I have a bin in the drawer.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s what I meant.

Casey Scieszka

Drawer. (laughing)

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah. Yeah. So, The Fountain, is—just as briefly as possible—it’s the story of an immortal woman who really would like to die, for excellent reasons, because immortality is a weight that is really, really heavy, and you convey that beautifully and wonderfully in this book. And so I want to just start right off—I maybe should let you describe the book—and then I’ll just warn you that my next question is going to be, “Man, how did you have the guts to swing for the fences like this?”

Casey Scieszka

Well, I think it probably began when I read Natalie Babbitt’s Tuck Everlasting as a fifth grader in English class, which is about a family that—or a little girl who comes across a magical spring that an immortal family is guarding, and then she has to decide, ultimately, throughout the book, what she’s going to do with this information and this knowledge while other people are hunting it down as well. And those questions just haunted and delighted me for decades, and I kept returning to them, and at some point I was working on a novel, had a whole manuscript going, was deeply frustrated, and I started a little something on the side where I was like, this will just be a short story. We’ll see where this goes. This is nothing, and I think, because… I don’t know, maybe you’ve experienced this before too, where if you’re not looking it directly in the eye, sometimes it can just take off, and it all of a sudden had a life of its own. Essentially, this grown-up version of Tuck Everlasting, where it’s about a woman who has come back to her small hometown in the Catskill Mountains, where she was born in the 1800s, 214 years later, to figure out what did this to her so she can reverse it and finally be released.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Wow, you really have the… the short pitch. What’s your book about? Down! Congratulations! That’s a tough one. Yeah, you, you nailed it. That is what it is about. And I will say that it took—one of the things that I loved about it, and that I like in a book—is that not only was I not sure at some points what the protagonist wanted for herself, I was not sure what I wanted for her. All I knew was that I wanted “something” for her. And that makes for a really interesting reading experience. Because normally, you know, you find yourself sitting there going, well, just, you know, just tell the person, or just, you know, kiss them or accept your reality, or you’d normally—you know what you want—like, take the ring, Frodo, or whatever. Or don’t take the ring, Frodo. And now there’s no book. But, and in this one, we didn’t. How hard was—was that for you to write—sort of, I don’t know… did you know what you wanted the protagonist—or what you wanted the reader to want for her? Or…?

Casey Scieszka

Yes and no.

KJ Dell’Antonia

How did you feel about that?

Casey Scieszka

Right. Yes and no, and yes and no. I think when you’re writing, ultimately, later on in draft, you have to be very clear about what your character wants. But in the early process, I had no idea. The whole thing, like I said, began as a short story, and that’s really just the first chapter or two, and then I was essentially hunting with her. When I was writing that first draft, I was like, what are we looking for? What has happened in the past 200 years in your life that would make you feel one way or another? And then every time I had a different little angel or devil on my shoulder, whatever you will, who was the—well, what about this point of view? What if? Wouldn’t this type of—wouldn’t someone say, well, living forever would be amazing, because you could share that type of science with other people, and you could, you know, have these wonderful medical advances or, you know, things like that? I could then have other characters essentially embody those, those other points of view as well. Although, I’m really glad that you say that in your reading experience, you still weren’t quite sure what she wanted, because I definitely didn’t want, you know—I mean, no, no author wants characters to just be symbols for points of view.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh yeah, no, absolutely not. And I should say that I know that she wants to reverse this. That’s never in question. But this sort of—there—you’re always aware of the question of what does she really want? Because that’s kind of only part of it to want…

Casey Scieszka

Right.

KJ Dell’Antonia

An end to this pain, but, but why and what other alternatives there are. And then, of course, I just—I did not know how you were going to end it. I could not imagine how you were going to land that plane. It must have been a tough one. Did you always know where you were going? We will not in any way spoil this.

Casey Scieszka

Right. No spoilers.

KJ Dell’Antonia

No, no spoilers.

Casey Scieszka

I’d say that about halfway through my first draft, I just saw the ending. I was like, “Oh, this is…”

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s amazing.

Casey Scieszka

This is like that very last moment. I was like, this is where I need to get. And those handful of chapters before the penultimate one, whoa, boy, those were the ones that are like I wrote, like seven different books, you know?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh yeah.

Casey Scieszka

Completely different versions to actually get there.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So what was your… what’s your hope for the reader experience of this book? Besides, you know vast entertainment and pressing it into the hands of their friends.

Casey Scieszka

Right. Naturally.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah…

Casey Scieszka

Beyond that…

KJ Dell’Antonia

We love that.

Casey Scieszka

Um, I mean, I love books that essentially look at what it means to be human and what makes a life worth living. And those are the type of questions that I hope someone would then linger on in their own life after putting down the book. Even in between chapters, you know? That you would be able to reflect on the choices that each character is making and think, like, oh, I would do this. I wouldn’t do that. Or, you know, to kind of just bring that back into your own life that way. Because… I don’t know. Time is perspective, like ever—what is—what does it mean to live forever? What is a long life? Is it? You know, when you’re when you’re little, a summer lasts an eternity. I guess what I’m saying is like our perspective of time is always bendy, and that was an interesting challenge in trying to write a 214 year old woman, where it was very tempting to just turn her into a superhero, where I’d be like, “Oh, well, she’d know 10 language.”

KJ Dell’Antonia

She’d know things, yeah.

Casey Scieszka

And she’d be like, amazing at all these things. And I had to be like, Casey, you have a lot of time on your hands as well. Like, you’re, you know, you’re 40 years old. And do you know 10 languages? Do you know five languages? Like, what are, like what are we talking about here?

KJ Dell’Antonia

On that ratio you should at least know two. (laughing) Uh, maybe three. If we’re going to say 200 is 10… you know you got, yeah, you should have at least two.

Casey Scieszka

Exactly. So just kind of examining, like, why would I—why would I have expectation, different expectations for someone simply because they’ve lived longer, and, you know, those types of things?

KJ Dell’Antonia

So you mentioned that you had a bunch of books in a drawer. So what’s bigger about this project than maybe the thing that you put aside to focus on it? Is it bigger?

Casey Scieszka

I don’t know if it’s bigger. I think I just had, I had better tools in my toolbox at this point. Like I might return to that other one, but I didn’t have the full heart of the question I was getting at there. I think I had more of a premise, or something like that. Whereas this one, when I was writing, I felt like the problem was I had own—like in the writing was like I had too much meat, I had so many questions, I had so much I was wrestling with. And then it also really helped that, I mean, it’s, its set in a small town in the Catskills, and, spoiler alert, that’s the type of place that I now live.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Right.

Casey Scieszka

And knew. People always tell you like, write what you know. I am, I am not, secretly, 214 years old. I know you can’t see me on camera, guys.

Multiple Speakers

(both laughing)

Casey Scieszka

My skin’s not that great for a… you know? But, but I do know what small-town life is in the Catskills. I do—there are some characters who are opening up a business. I know what it’s like to open a business. Like, it was really fun for me. I felt like I had this endless well of inspiration to keep pulling from that way. And that was something I couldn’t have written 10 years before. You know?

KJ Dell’Antonia

You also handled the depth of the questions that you’re dealing with remarkably tightly. Did you have to clear away a lot of like… asking for a friend…(laughing). Did you have to clear away a lot of mulling over these questions by people or? I guess what I’m getting at is these are really deep and big questions, like you said, but I don’t feel—you did not Atlas Shrugged these. You know, there’s not like a 20-page dissertation by John Galt in the middle of it. How hard was it to keep that from happening? Or did it come a little more easily for you?

Casey Scieszka

I think, nothing, nothing, none of it comes easily. We know this.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah.

Casey Scieszka

I mean, sometimes you reach the flow state, you know? And it is funny to even think back on these things, because I have a, like, a willful blindness, almost in the same way that, like, I have given birth to two children, and, like, I can’t believe I did it a second time, you know? But it’s by, you know, it’s by design, some—perhaps similar with writing. Once you know how the sausage is made, sometimes it can be hard to do again. But anyway, all of this is to go back and actually answer your question. I was very wary of doing the… this is how I feel about something info dump. And one of the things that my agent as an editor has been helpful with from early drafts was, how can you reveal these things in action? So anytime I was tempted to just start explaining things, I was like, Casey, is this happening in action? Like, is this a character actually finding something out? Like from another character in a natural way. So that…

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s a great question.Casey Scieszka

Right. That really, that really helped me. And then also sometimes with the writing I did, just let myself write a whole bunch, you know, because sometimes, especially if you know it’s the beginning of your writing day, maybe it’s, it’s that equivalent of the throat clearing—you’re just or the dog who’s doing circles before they sit down, like you’re, you’re getting around to the thing that you actually want to say. And then when you re read it, you’re like, “Oh, well, those first four paragraphs can go, and here’s where I actually start to say…”KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, here’s what i meant to say.

Casey Scieszka

Yeah. Yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Take this. Put it up at the front— delayed all this. Yeah. No. I get it. So how long did this take you?

Casey Scieszka

Well, I started the short story in 2021 and then it comes out now. I will say we had, like; everything was in the can, if you will, at least, like a year and a half ago, just kind of waiting for this springtime pub date. But, yeah, it’s a journey. That’s a—I feel, you know, like another thing you don’t want to hear when you’re like, 25 and are like, I’m going to write a book, and you hear an interview with someone who’s like, it took me 10 years, and I was like, my god. And I’m like, well, girl.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I can do it faster than that.

Casey Scieszka

This one is five years. But…

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, yeah, no, it takes, it takes a long time, and it’s hard, and it takes a lot of painful thinking, and yeah, all of those things are true. So now, now that you can look back at this project with hopefully a little bit of distance, and you’re about to be talking about it a lot, I suspect. What do you love most about it?

Casey Scieszka

Ooh. I love most that these characters feel so real to me still that I sometimes catch myself wondering, like, what they’re doing. You know?

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s amazing.

Casey Scieszka

Like I lived with them, and I just, I’m so excited that I actually, like made—was able to make that for, you know, not just myself, though, that I surely entertained myself in the process. But it is such a humbling dream that this story is now existing in other people’s brains, that these are characters who have felt real to other people as well.

KJ Dell’Antonia

What, as you look back, what would you say was the hardest part of the process?

Casey Scieszka

Aside from all of the waiting?!

KJ Dell’Antonia

All of it! Aside from all of it.

Casey Scieszka

Which felt like…

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah I was going to say aside from…

Casey Scieszka

It felt eternal.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah. Yeah.

Multiple Speakers

(both laughing)

Casey Scieszka

I think the very hardest part is early on, when you don’t know—well, the earliest, earliest is delightful, because you’re in just your little creative cocoon, and you’re having these wonderful ideas, and you don’t have to solve any of the plot problems yet, or things like that. You know, you’re just like being your own little creative genius for yourself. But then it’s I feel like that, that first real revision phase when you don’t know fully if this is actually going to become a book where you’re—and time, you know, to talk about time again, is precious, like I, you know, I run this other hotel. It’s open half the year. But when I began it, it was open seven days a week, all year long; I had two children under the age of four at the time. Like, time was precious. I was writing during nap time, like things were being sacrificed in order for me to do this. And it is. It just feels audacious and possibly insane to be doing it when you’re in it, and when you’re on the other side, you’re like, oh, but the road was always pointing here, and you just, you just don’t know that when you’re in it.

KJ Dell’Antonia

No.

Casey Scieszka

Yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

You could easily have, really think, you know, you could easily still be sitting on this going, well, I’m going to finish this…

Casey Scieszka

Exactly. And, you know…

KJ Dell’Antonia

When the kids are… you know… or whatever.

Casey Scieszka

Yeah, exactly I have these other, you know, unfinished or manuscripts that haven’t seen the light of day. But, at this point, I tell myself, and I 99.9999% believe it that those were necessary to write in order to write this.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, I sure hope so.

Multiple Speakers

(both laughing)

Casey Scieszka

There’s just that other point 0.0001 that’s like—

KJ Dell’Antonia

What?!

Casey Scieszka

Yeah, it’s like, no, no, it really was necessary.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, no, you have to. You have to do it. Well, I hate to be, you know, not trying to raise the bar here, but, but what is next after, you know, a topic like this and a big book like, like this? Do you know yet? Are you, are you thinking about it? Where are you in your process?

Casey Scieszka

I have been working on something else which is fun. And I definitely have, like, you know, while as much as I know how, how wild it is with how the sausage is made and what I’m, you know, the many revisions and things I’m looking down the barrel at, I also have another level of excitement, because I know, like, wow, I have an agent this time who’s actually excited to read it, and I have a working relationship with an editor. Like, I’m trying to appreciate that…

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, because it’s what you wanted before.

Casey Scieszka

And it can be so easy to just, you know, slip back into the like; you know, I don’t know, the chaos feelings. But, I will say, I’m not going to say much about the project, other than historically, for everything I’ve ever been drawn to, and including stuff I love to read. I always love when character, when there’s a character who knows like way too much or way too little, like in their situation.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s a very like tempting pitch without having anything you’d like to put your fingers in.

Casey Scieszka

Without…

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s good. That’s good, that’s clever.

Casey Scieszka

I told you nothing.

KJ Dell’Antonia

You told me nothing, and yet I’m like, ooh yeah, that does sound… that does sound interesting. Well, I as I’ve as I’ve said I wholeheartedly enjoyed this. It was twisty. You had me thinking things that were not what was so at many, many points of the book.

Casey Scieszka

I love to hear this. Love to hear.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah and when we are off, off recording, I’ll tell you some of them, because that is always kind of fun. I really feel like this book is such an achievement. For someone who’s just getting started, it’s great. I can’t wait to see what you do next. And I guess, on that note, what’s something you have read recently where you also felt like the writer was, was really big, really playing big. Is there anything that you would like to press on into people’s hands the way I want to press The Fountain, into their hands?

Casey Scieszka

I’ve loved this. Thank you again. One book I keep pressing into many people’s hands is Open Throat by Henry Hoke.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Okay.

Casey Scieszka

It’s very slim. You can read it in like a day, although I recommend taking a little bit longer, because you’ll want to enjoy it. It is told from the point of view of a mountain lion who lives under the Hollywood sign.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh, I—I think I’ve heard the description, even if I don’t remember the—okay.

Casey Scieszka

It’s so funny and so deeply tender, like and just unlike anything I’ve read recently, and I just really felt like, like he was swinging for the fences with this, like it’s from the point of view of an animal, which should be ridiculous, but after…

KJ Dell’Antonia

And not just an animal, but an animal that lives under the Hollywood sign.

Casey Scieszka

Yeah, like that’s a mountain lion who’s—it open up or he’s overhearing like you know hikers discussing therapist, you know? It’s just, it’s so silly, but it’s also so deep and kind of truly experimental, but still so accessible and I just feel like it’s the type of thing that I don’t know. Maybe when he sat down to write it, he was like, this, someone’s going to tell me, I’m nuts, but I just connected with it so much.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I…yeah. Alright I love that then, and that is a great response to the question, because that really is somebody else swinging for the fences, and that’s what we’re just trying to talk about here for everyone. So where? Well, listeners can find you, obviously they can, they can buy The Fountain,, and they should. You’re inn is called?

Casey Scieszka

The Spruceton Inn, a Catskills Bed & Bar. We’re a little nine-room hotel.

KJ Dell’Antonia

(laughing) Bed and bar. That’s awesome.

Casey Scieszka

Yeah. I mean, I don’t, I don’t really mess with breakfast. I mean, you get very nice coffee and some pop tarts. I love a good highbrow, lowbrow, and we are five miles down a seven mile dead end road in the middle of the mountains.KJ Dell’Antonia

Okay, I love this for everyone. And is there any particular social media where you are fun and joyful?

Casey Scieszka

Yeah, you can find us on Instagram at sprucetoninn. That’s also like some writing stuff and same with Substack. Only other thing I’ll say about the inn is we also run an artist residency program, an annual one. So every August we open it up to folks, writers, 2D artists. Basically, if you can make it in a motel room without disturbing your neighbors, come on and make it with us, and you get, you get, like, a week-long stay. No cost, in the month of November.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That is so fun and so cool. And I bet you’re going to get a lot more applications than you can handle this time around. Alright, well, thank you so much for spending this time with me.

Casey Scieszka

Thank you so much for chatting.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And amazing best of luck with the book, which I loved. All right, kids, I’m signing this off with our new sign off. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled, Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Write the Book Readers Can’t Stop Recommending(Write Big, Ep 14) Feb 27, 2026

In this Write Big episode, Jennie Nash is joined by AJ Harper, author of Write a Must-Read: Craft a Book That Changes Lives—Including Your Own, to talk about a more meaningful way to define success as a writer. AJ shares her concept of writing a “Top Three” book—one that becomes a reader’s personal favorite, the kind they keep forever, recommend constantly, and return to again and again. Together they explore why chasing external metrics like speed, bestseller lists, or book deals can distract from what really matters, and how focusing on writing something truly beloved often leads to those wins anyway. Links from the Pod:

Ep 416: The Art of Helping Writers Do Their Best Work, with AJ Harper

Write a Must-Read, AJ Harper

Love Medicine, Louise Erdrich

The War of Art, Steven Pressfield

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 492: What book format benefits authors most? Feb 20, 2026

Hello and welcome to Nerd Corner with Sarina and Jess! I love these episodes because I will never, ever know as much about the publishing industry as Sarina Bowen, and I learn so much from her. This week, she answers a question she got from a listener, paraphrased thusly:

Dear Sarina, I want to support you and your work, so which format of your books do you profit from most?

The fact that we live in a world where any reader is interested in the answer to this question soothes my troubled soul.

So let’s break it down: hardcover, paperback, audio, ebook? What about borrowing from the library? What about subscription services such as Kindle Unlimited?

Here are a few helpful links that expand on the topics we discuss in this episode:

The Top Five Reasons Pre-Orders Matter

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

What Finishing a Book Teaches You About Showing Up (Write Big, Ep 13) Feb 13, 2026

In this Write Big session, Jennie Nash talks with podcast co-host Sarina Bowen about what it really feels like to finish a book—especially the anxiety and pressure that can come with “finishing energy.” Sarina shares a powerful mindset shift: there is no summit in a writing career. You may reach the end of a draft (or even launch day), but the work doesn’t magically get easier—there’s always another book. The key, she says, is learning to love the hike itself and stay connected to your curiosity so you can keep showing up.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Quit Laughing at My WOTY It's Not Funny. Jan 30, 2026

Our Goals for 2026:

Jess is gonna finish a novel.

Sarina is going to figure out what she wants a long haul writer career to looks like.

KJ is going to write this book as hard as she can and for as long as it takes.

Jennie is going to claim her authority in the writing space.

Our Words of the Year are …

Meanwhile: Fan of Heated Rivalry? You’ll want to read these books by Sarina Bowen!

Ready to talk about your own goals and words? COME ON IN. We are here for that!

Hey - if you’ve been curious about becoming a book coach, Jennie’d like to invite you to a live training she’s doing on February 4th, at 5pm PST / 8pm EST. She’s going to be talking about how to become the kind of book coach writers love to pay. You can sign up at bookcoaches.com/live

WOTYs … in the episode! If you want to know what was so funny, you’ll have to listen.

Transcript Below!

If you love us enough that you got this far…

SPONSORSHIP MESSAGE

Hey, it’s Jennie Nash, and if you’ve been curious about becoming a book coach, I’d like to invite you to a live training I’m going to be doing on February 4th, at 5pm PST, which is 8pm EST, and I’m going to be talking about how to become the kind of book coach writers love to pay. You can sign up for that at bookcoaches.com/live. That’s bookcoaches.com/live. (bookcoaches.com/live) I’d love to see you there.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone, it’s Jennie, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. All four of us are here today to talk about our Word of the Year for 2026 and our goals. This is one of our favorite episodes to do, and we’ve all been kicking our words around, and we’re ready to share them with you. So Sarina, do you want to go first?

Sarina Bowen

Okay!

Jennie Nash

I just know you are kind of ready.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Right off the diving board. No throat clearing, no chit chat. Yeah, we’re just alrighty.

Sarina Bowen

All right, so I’m Sarina, and I write novels, and pretty much that is all I write. So my goals tend to look kind of the same from year to year, but my, but how I feel about them, changes. So in 2026 I plan to write two to three books, and when I do, I will be rolling off of two contracts with two different publishers. So that means that the other part of my 2026 is really asking myself what I want to do next. Because, you know, finishing energy is a really hard thing, but I’ll be like extra super finishing energy here, because I’m finishing a commitment. And, you know, I used to have goals, like, I’m going to write more books. I’m going to write all the books. And I don’t anymore, because there were, there was a while there where I only wrote books, and then last year, I did a really nice job of meeting my goals that I would also go and have more fun and take more vacations. And it worked. I did that. It turns out that planning fun takes a lot of energy and time. Oh my goodness, it was I, you know, I so I was either off having a wild time, or I was like, you know, nailed to my desk, and, yeah, so I need to do a slightly better job of that this year. Although looking at the schedule, it’s a little hard to see how, because I’m spending a big chunk of March and part of April in Australia and Hong Kong, and then...

Jennie Nash

Wait you can’t just throw that in and not say why. [laughing]

Sarina Bowen

Oh, well, I’m, I’m visiting. I’m doing four reader events in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.

Jennie Nash

It’s so exciting, so exciting.

Sarina Bowen

And you know, time will tell if accepting this invitation was, in fact, a good idea. When I get home, I will be—it’ll be June, and I will be launching my second book of 2026, which is a romance and so, but, but then, you know, I will have turned in half of what I’m turning in this year, and I will be able to have big thoughts about what I do next. And that is the thing that is going to be hard about this year, not turning in files, but, you know, deciding what does it mean to me? And also a thing that I realized last year, while balancing my busy life is that in this job, there is no summit. It’s not like you climb that big hill and then you stand there and you hear an angel choir, and then you know that the only thing that greets you after writing a big novel is that you will pretty soon, eventually write another one. So you have to enjoy the hike itself. And I am really working on that.

Jess Lahey

I actually have just—I have just to address what you just mentioned Sarina, I have put in my calendar in June. Since we love to—I happen to love the mid-year check-ins on goals. I put a little note to self, to future Jess to revisit Sarina’s goals at mid-year so that we can talk about maybe what that second half of the year, what comes next, stuff is going to look like. So, expect that to come back around.

Sarina Bowen

Okay, I hope there’s some clarity by then, so I’ll get right on that.

Jess Lahey

Well, and I would also like to mention that you mentioned, you know, all the work you’re doing and doing fun and stuff like that. You also went back to skating this year, and you, I have loved watching you learn, relearn something fairly new, and gain skills and get determined to like, be able to do that. What’s it called, when you change the side of the blade you’re on? When you turn?

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, all that edge work...

Jess Lahey

It’s very exciting.

Sarina Bowen

And those three turns. Yeah. So that is part of my leave the house and have fun plan, and that has worked out really well. It—when you do something that’s so outside of your usual, like, we could just stipulate by now that I’m pretty good at writing a novel, because I have turned in a number of them and sold a number of them, but I am really not good at skating. So when you take yourself so far out of your element, and you do something that is so foreign to you, you learn, relearn all those weird little tricks about how you learned anything, and the fact that last year I could not do a three turn to save my life, which is where you turn around on one foot. And I tried and I tried and I tried and I tried to trick myself into it. And I’m like, okay, I’ll take off on two feet, but land on one. I just every single thing didn’t work. And then this year, now I can do it. And also, I woke up at four in the morning once and thought I could do a waltz jump tomorrow, and then the next day I did, in fact, just do a waltz jump. And I hadn’t even been thinking about it. It wasn’t even on my list of things I was going to try that week. So learning something really, really new is really just great for your brain and your attitude. And I don’t know what the next thing that I do like that will be, but, yeah, I’m a fan.

Jennie Nash

But I must reflect back to you that a few years ago, you were, I think the goals had to you were working so hard and just, you know, book to book to book to book and, like, look at you now .You’re going on all these trips, and you’re learning to ice skate, and I know you and KJ are learning Mahjong.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Mahjong, yes.

Jennie Nash

And you write in coffee shops like, you’ve kind of really changed that, that vibe. It’s cool.

Sarina Bowen

I have! I did it right? Like I said, I’m going to have more fun. I’m going to learn to write out of the house. Like I sat in a room and said to you that this was going to happen. And I did, right? But the, but then, but then, writing the actual books, it magically did not get easier. So I am having more fun, but it’s still hard, and that’s how I’m coming to this new realization that, like you know, I need to stop being surprised that the actual job is hard, but it’s just like a piece of the fun that I’m having, and if and I can only write books that I’m probably going to enjoy, because it’s still hard and it still takes a lot of hours.

Jennie Nash

That’s amazing. I feel compelled to ask you, what are you most enjoying about what you’re writing right now?

Sarina Bowen

Well we are at maximum finishing energy, because I am finishing a revision, which is scary, right? Because then you’re sending it off into the world of telling yourself that it’s done. And I have to say, I have not enjoyed it all that much. This has been one of the more one of the more stressful weeks. But, yeah, I—but there are moments as I look through this manuscript, because I’ve just reached that point where you hate every living word of it, right? Where I read a line and I laugh, and then that’s just a good sign.

Jennie Nash

Like I’m so clever, look at me.

Multiple Speakers

[all laughing]

Jess Lahey

I actually just, just for fun. I just dropped—I got to go—I traveled an hour and a half to go so that I could go sit in a coffee shop and work with these guys, because I miss them so much. And I took two pictures of Sarina while she was working there, and in one, she had this look on her face... I just dropped it in our group text just now, where she’s got this look on her face like this is the hardest, worst thing I’ve ever done. And then I also took one of her smiling and looking like her usual happy self. But it was—I love having those two pictures together on my phone, because it’s so representative of the slog. How there are these moments of really having fun and engaging with the book and loving it, and then there’s those moments of editing where you’re trying to just finish it and get all the words in the right order.

Sarina Bowen

Yep, it’s, it’s, you know that the push and pull and the trick to liking this job is that when you’re in that trench of I have to be finished with this. I have to love it, and I have to set it free. You have to remember that the other side is out there. That like the drafting happy, I haven’t made any big mistakes yet, I haven’t sealed off all the x’s yet, like that’s waiting for you on the other side of it. You know, if you get too deep in one place or the other, so that you can’t remember, the other one is out there for you. Then, then that’s a trap. It makes the job harder.

Jennie Nash

Well, thank you for that. Jess, do you want to go next?

Jess Lahey

Sure! Yeah, so last year, last year was weird. Last year, my, my, I’m going a little bit into what my word was last year; it was ‘amplified’ because it led, it sort of guided a lot of my goals last year, which had to do with just reaching more people, but during the year, during the course of the year, reaching and educating more people on the topics that I feel really strongly about, like mental health wellness, the specifically substance use prevention, as it relates to things like self-efficacy in kids and feelings of competence in kids. I realized sort of part way through the year how much more I was enjoying and feeling engaged when I was talking to the kids, and how much more impactful I felt when I was talking to the kids, and that shouldn’t be surprising. But, if you’re not a speaker, and if you don’t spend your time speaking to adults and kids and especially teens, you should know it takes, you know, maybe three to four times as much energy to talk to the kids as it does to the adults. In fact, yesterday, I was trying to explain to someone why a virtual event to a lot of kids, doesn’t work. I can’t project that much energy through a screen to captivate a big room of kids. It’s just it’s really hard to do. And anyway, so I realized about halfway through the year that I really wanted when I when I thought about the word amplify and expanding on the number of kids that I reach per year, and the depth to which I am able to reach some kids in particular, it comes it comes down to not just people, but just kids specifically. So I talked with my agents, and we’ve agreed that I’m going to try to incorporate more kids this year. That even if it’s more exhausting for me, it’s more fulfilling, and so that’s one of my big goals for this year, is to figure out how—yes, I still have to talk to adults, and I have to help them understand how to talk to their kids about substance use and mental health and how to see, know, love, support the kids you have, and not the kids you wish you had and all that stuff. But when it comes down to it, I have to figure out ways to get in the room with kids more and...

KJ Dell’Antonia

You’re a kid-travert!

Jess Lahey

[laughing] Apparently.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Which some people get their energy from being with people, and some people get, you know, it takes—that’s extroverts and introverts. So you’re a kid-travert, you get your energy from talking to kids. That’s delightful!

Jess Lahey

It’s in the moment. In the moment, it’s much more exhausting. But there was a—I spoke at a school in Los Angeles. It was one of the best days I had in front of kids. And the number of emails I got afterwards explaining why it was meaningful to them. You know, I love when the kids, anytime a kid reaches out, it’s this huge honor, because, you know, I’m, who am I? I’m some adult that comes into their school because their teachers say that, and now their teachers say they have to listen to this bozo. They don’t know who this person is. But over time, I’ve figured out ways to help them trust me a little bit more, even before I get there. Like creating these videos where I introduce myself ahead of time. So I’m trying to figure out all the ways in to getting being a trusted adult, becoming a trusted adult to more and more kids, is something that’s incredibly important to me, because that’s where the great education stuff lies. So that amplify word changed for me over last year, and it’s reflected in this year’s goals as well, which is, get in front of more kids. I track those numbers really carefully. Last year, I was in front of just shy of 10,000 people generally, and a couple of 1000 kids. And I just want to change that ratio a little bit so that it’s have more heavily in the kid direction and less heavily in the adult direction. Just because it’s fun and really interesting and challenging. That’s the other thing is, when you’ve been doing something for a long time, there are some talks I can do in my sleep, because I’ve done them so many times, and I don’t want to do that, like, why would you want to come and spend time with someone who’s asleep in front of you? But you know, they look good and it sounds good, but they’re not totally invested. And I think everybody can feel that. So I’ve had to find ways to change things up, to reevaluate my content from other angles, so that I’m not getting sick of myself, and so that I can be fresh and new and useful to people. So, and then, like, I have small goals, you know, Sarina was just talking about her skating and looking, you know, trying to do something completely new that makes you a little nervous. You know, the beekeeping thing still makes me super nervous. And as I mentioned in another episode, I think Tim saw me emotionally preparing to do something I needed to do with the bees and he said I have never seen you so nervous and so doubting yourself about your ability to do something, and I realized how good that is for me. And so we will see at the end of this winter if my bees actually made it through the winter, and if they did, I’ll have a hive of bees to deal with, and if they don’t, I’ll have to get a new hive. But that’s been really, really good for me. Sarina, did you want to add something?

Sarina Bowen

I have a question.

Jess Lahey

Yes, ma’am.

Sarina Bowen

Do we have a writing goal for this year?

Jess Lahey

Yes, we do. And that’s actually at the bottom of my list, because it’s new. So I’ve been attending this weekly, really interesting virtual Blueprint for a Book Fast Track. What is it? Jumpstart you guys? With Jennie Nash, this really great book coach and founder of Author Accelerator, and KJ Dell’Antonia and I have been actually writing—working on this novel that I’ve been working on for ages and ages and ages and thinking about at a minimum once a week, and I’m going to finish it this year. 100% I’m going to finish it this year. And I’m really grateful to Jennie and KJ, because being in that, in—being in there, is forcing me to ask me all kinds of questions about, why am I even bothering to stick with this thing that has stymied me for over a decade? Like, why bother if it’s been that hard and I haven’t ever gotten it done, why am I even doing it? And I love asking myself those questions. It’s been really fun. Plus, there’s like 100 other people in that virtual session asking themselves the same questions and coming up with really cool answers for why they’re even writing something in the first place. And it gets at all these fundamental questions of why we do what we do. So yes, I will be, I’m researching a nonfiction thing still. I have a—I’m looking at a stack of books behind me, and but I’m going to finish this YA novel this year period, full stop, it’s going to happen.

Multiple Speakers

[Unintelligible] [several speaking at once]

Jennie Nash

Well what’s cool is, is, I mean, YA is not children, but it’s young people. So that’s kind of cool. It goes with your other thing.

KJ Dell’Antonia

There’s a trend there.

Jess Lahey

Yeah. And it was funny, because when you were asking the why the other night, and one of my things was, oh, because these characters speak to me, blah, blah, blah. And KJ mentioned, oh, I do know what Jess is talking about. And maybe it’s, you know, she wants to write a coming of age story, and that’s 100% it. I think I have, I have. I very much love that coming of age space and the struggles that middle school and high school kids go through in that coming of age space. And I think I have an interesting insight into it, and an ability to, an ability to make it come alive on the page. And I, for me, really want to do that. I really want to see it on the page, and I’m really excited about it.

Jennie Nash

You do have such a compassion for that age and what people are going through and how hard it is and it’s...

Jess Lahey

And I love these characters. And I said I love these characters, and I want to do right by them. And that’s true too. I do love these characters, and I can’t stop thinking about them.

Sarina Bowen

That is the best reason to finish any piece of fiction. You know?

Jess Lahey

Yeah, no, I really it’s like they’re stuck until I help them get to the other side. And I would hate to leave them there. I would it would make me feel really bad.

Jennie Nash

I love it. Well you know, committing to something that you’ve been working on for that long, that’s a that’s a big deal.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, it’s also one of those. I know it’s going to feel really, really good when I finish it. It’ll be like, oh my gosh, I’ve been harping on that for whatever it is now 12 or 13 years, and I finally finished it. So I know it’s going to be one of those. I’m going to be very, very glad I did it when it’s done. And is it super hard? Yes, I’ve, you know, bitched and moaned about this in the past, that fiction is really hard for me and dialog is so hard for me, but that’s what I’m writing right now.

Jennie Nash

That’s another, another learning edge, right?

Jess Lahey

Yep. Yep.

Jennie Nash

Awesome. KJ, what about you?

KJ Dell’Antonia

My only goal this year with respect to writing is to write this book as hard as I can for as long as it takes. That’s all I got. I got a couple other goals. I’d like to get my Christmas tree down at some point during the year. It seems like a plan. I was pretty excited about the Valentine’s Day concept a few years ago, but I don’t know, people have been really negging on it. Easter also, apparently not tree material. I mean, come on the fourth? I’m seeing it. No one else is. So there’s that. No, my and my big life goal is to leave more white space for myself in my day and in my calendar, to do things, to not do things, and for the unexpected things, both good and bad things. I have a real tendency to be like from 11:30 to one I’m doing this, and from 1:30 to 2:30 there’s this, and hey, at three there’s this. And that is, in fact, an excellent description of my day. And sometimes I like it, but I just do it to myself constantly, and I need to stop.

Multiple Speakers

[all laughing]

Jennie Nash

That’s all? Okay. Mic drop. I’m just thinking about that white space. What? What happens when you have white space?

Sarina Bowen

You know what happens to me when I have white space, because I’m actually pretty good at keeping it in my calendar, is that I get an email that’s like, and today, we will be choosing among these eight narrator auditions. And then you will decide who is the narrator for this book that you haven’t been thinking about for four months since you last did the copy edits, and then my whole day just explodes in a little puff of admin, like trying to get out of my own inbox is killing me. So, yeah, I don’t, I don’t. It’s not even that I planned it. Other people are making this my, my problem, and I wish I had a 2026, goal for how to fix it.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, there’s that. I mean, to some extent, I think that’s my point. Is that I would like to stop doing it to myself, because I mean it through exactly the thing it is was not my was not my idea, nor was the thing, the unexpected event at eight o’clock this this morning, or the one when I walked in from the expected thing from nine to 10. I need to do a little less of it for myself, to allow for the fact that the other things in my life, I think, and I did this to some extent last year too. My final kids have actually all left for college this year, which is great, but there’s still a lot of trouble. And also I have a lot of pets, and also just, there’s a lot going on. So I sort of thought, and I really made this mistake in the Fall pretty hard. I thought, oh, I should probably fill like I should put some things on the calendar because I might feel sad. A, I still felt sad, and that was okay. And B, I put way too much on the calendar, given the number, amount of time I had to spend on... I’m just yeah, and here I am thinking I didn’t do it in the spring, and I didn’t, but I sort of am doing it on a daily basis, like, oh, look. And some of that is just that this was, what am I wrong? Was this the longest holiday season ever in the history of holiday season? Like it was still Christmas on January 17, I swear to God. And so a lot of it, I think, is I’m feeling a little dejected, because my days are really packed, because I had the sense not to put everything in the week of January 6, but I put a lot of things this week and last week. So hopefully I’ll, but, but having done that, and now feeling it, I think, I hope, will inspire me to block off more time that, no doubt, will get filled with things. But that’s better than it getting filled with things and my having already filled it.

Jennie Nash

Yep.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It’s not going so great.

Jennie Nash

I get that. Okay, so, so for me, I made some really big moves in my business in 2025 and they worked, and that was great. And I made a decision toward the end of the year to make even bigger moves, and did some thinking about, I wouldn’t say, an exit strategy or a succession plan, but I’m 62 this year, and I’m working really, really, really hard in my business day to day, running, you know, pretty big small business, and I really want more time to create. To create curriculum, to, I just like making things. You know, to work on the podcast, to work on my own book, and I’ll talk about that in a minute. And so I made a training plan to teach my team to take over the things that they are fully capable of taking over, if I just get it out of my head and onto a page to teach them how to do it. So it’s a really big move for me, and kind of a terrifying move. It means trusting people. It means handing over some things. It means there’s some ego-y things involved in that, the idea that nobody can do it as well as I can. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s big. It’s big mindset. It’s big actual shifting of duties. It’s, it’s kind of the white space idea writ large. What, what would it look like for me to have more white space? And it is, it is not retiring, it’s not stopping. It’s just, can I do more of what I want to do and less of the—of the day to day of this business? I am constantly surprised by the thing I have made. Author Accelerator has more than 375 certified book coaches now, and it’s this huge community, and they’re having a huge impact. And a lot of my coaches are becoming huge their own selves and doing really well, and just we’re becoming known. And all of that takes time to manage, like the, I don’t know, I wouldn’t call it the brand, it’s, it’s the community. It just takes a lot of time to manage and the kinds of inquiries that we get and that sort of thing. And I, it’s a thing that needs care, and I’m the one to give it that care. So just meeting the moment, I guess, is what my goal is for the year, and as part of that, the Write Big Sessions that I’ve been doing here at the podcast are my stepping into that space of thought leadership and creation, content creation in a different way. And haven’t talked about this a lot, but I am writing a Write Big book, and I went out and found myself a brand new agent. I did my search from scratch. I did it cold. I tried to find the perfect agent for this book, rather than somebody that I knew, because I know a lot of agents, and I don’t want to, I don’t want to talk about a lot of specifics at the moment about who that person is, or what’s happening really, but I will say that it’s taken a little minute to get it together, because that’s how it happens sometimes. But the book is out on submission, even as we speak, and I was telling KJ, this agent does something that I’ve never heard of and never seen, and I love it so much, which is that she shares a spreadsheet of the submissions and puts the responses right in there so I can log in, you know, 10, 12, 25 times a day and...

Multiple Speakers

[all laughing]

KJ Dell’Antonia

Just normal, healthy behavior, right?

Jennie Nash

Which is so fantastic. Rather than, like, why isn’t she telling me, or how come we haven’t heard or whatever? But it’s very, very early days, and so all that’s coming in are the no’s, because that’s, that’s what happens. But the no’s are so great. I love them so much. They’re totally boosting me up. Because, like, people know me. They know my work. They like my work. Like I, I don’t know. I’m just so delighted by the nature and quality of the no’s, which is just a funny place to be, but that is, that is where I am so...

Sarina Bowen

Jennie, it’s a fantastic place to be. Like I have never heard another author say the no’s make me happy. Like that is not a sentence I have heard in my life. And I know a lot of authors, so the fact that you know that that’s, I just have good, good feelings and good thoughts about this project, and you are amazing.

Jennie Nash

Well, thank you. And that is not by accident. That’s what Writing Big means, right? It’s like I own this idea. I’m not waiting to be picked; I’m not waiting to be anointed. I’m not waiting for somebody to say, you know, good job. But, when they do, and you know, these no’s are just indications, like I self-published the Blueprint Books and I sort of think of them as this little thing that I made. I made them for my coaches to use in their coaching, and I made them to, it’s a model that I teach. I didn’t ever think of it as a thing, but I’ve sold more than 20,000 copies of the Blueprint Books my own self, and, but I just didn’t think like editors would know what they are. They would use them with their own authors. They would know my company. They would know my coaches, and that’s what all the no’s are showing me. And that I’m just, I’m just like, when do you get a mirror into your impact? It feels like the no’s a mirror into my impact, and I feel, I feel like there’s no doubt that something great is going to happen with this book. I have no doubt. So bring on the no’s and have them be awesome, because I know good things, great things are coming, and whether, who knows what path that is going to be, but that, that is where I am, and that sharing of the spreadsheet that this agent has done is just feeding right into, I mean, for other people, it might be the biggest disaster in the world, but for me, I’m like, this is so fun. I love it. My goal is for the year to lean into this bigger vision of what I can be.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s a good goal.

Jennie Nash

Thank you. Well, I’m going to share my word first, because it just goes so well with what I’ve just been saying, and it’s so obvious, and it’s so great. And my word of the year is ‘play big’. Play big.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s two words.

Jess Lahey

That’s two words.

Sarina Bowen

I get two words.

KJ Dell’Antonia

She’s allowed to have two words because she’s playing big.

Multiple Speakers

[all laughing]

Jennie Nash

All right, we have to go in reverse order then so KJ, what’s your, what’s your word?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh, my word of the year is, is ‘alive’.

Jess Lahey

Oh, dear. Okay, that’s a... quite a goal you got there missy.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It’s a good word... laughing

Jennie Nash

Can you explain?!

Sarina Bowen

She can’t, because she’s laughing really hard right now.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Um, it was going to be enthusiast, because I wanted to be sort of a welcoming both the challenges and the excitements of my life. But I really just feel like, and then it was going to be relish, but, but that’s pickles, and I hate them. And then I’m just, I just feel really good about just letting it all come and, and being a part of it.

Jennie Nash

Okay, good word.

Jess Lahey

Oh, Sarina?

Sarina Bowen

I’ve used a lot of the words.

Jess Lahey

Oh, not yet. Sorry.

KJ Dell’Antonia

She said, reverse order.

Jennie Nash

I’m laughing so hard that I’m crying.

Jess Lahey

Oh, she said, reverse order. That’s right.

Sarina Bowen

We have done this so many times, and we have never laughed all the way through it. Okay, okay.

Jess Lahey

KJ is right though we have used all of the words, I actually considered reusing one of my words this year, but then I thought maybe that was a cop out. So I did come up with a new word.

Sarina Bowen

I considered it, and then I was too lazy to go look them up.

Jess Lahey

That’s quite a statement there, Bowen.

Sarina Bowen

I know!

Multiple Speakers

[all laughing uncontrollably]

KJ Dell’Antonia

I know I had savor before, that was kind of where I was going, but...

Jennie Nash

I can’t stop laughing.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I don’t know I feel very gritty about my... [unintelligible]

Jennie Nash

I’m like snort laughing over here at the idea of I’m never going to not hear relish and pickles. [laughing uncontrollably]

Jess Lahey

I know, I know, I like it so much. I love it.

Sarina Bowen

Well, she really doesn’t like pickles. KJ is that friend where if she is served a pickle with her lunch, you can take it.

Jess Lahey

Yeah. Absolutely.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And the bit of bread that it touched.

Sarina Bowen

Okay Jess? Jess, I don’t know how you’re going to follow this, but do you have a word?

Jess Lahey

I do have a word, and I’m really excited about this word, because years ago, when I did a really cool conference in Abu Dhabi, I met this woman that I was shocked I hadn’t met before. But her name is Elke Govertsen, Elke, and she has a Substack. Her Substack is just, it’s @ Elke, is her. She managed to snag @ Elke. She has a newsletter. She has something called Open Nesting. She’s got older kids. Anyway, I subscribed to her Substack. I love it. She’s one of those people that when she walked down on stage to give her talk, she just glowed from inside, like she was one of those people that you just, I felt really drawn to. So I started following her and her year, her word for this year I really liked, although I thought about it in a different way than she did. Her word for the year is ‘allow’—a, l, l, o, w—and so that is my word for the year, to allow myself to do some things. For example, finishing this book, and just realizing, allowing myself to be really bad at it and hoping that I can pull it off, allowing myself to look really dumb doing stuff like the beekeeping, allowing myself some grace about the fact that I’m probably killed my bees this winter because they’re not insulated enough, all of the things. But I just really liked her word allow. So that’s where I am. That’s my word. I was going to redo evaluate, because I really did like that one, because that the emphasis there was, like, figure out what’s valuable to you, but whatever, I’ve used that one before, so I’m going to give credit out to Elke and go with allow.

Jennie Nash

Okay, Sarina, what about you?

Sarina Bowen

Well, you know, I picked a word, and I usually really struggle with this, and I never feel quite comfortable with it, but I pick something, or it just picked me one day, and that word is ‘esteem’. And my little job, my little job is having a strange little moment of esteem, because there’s this show that’s at the tippy top of HBO right now called Heated Rivalry. And Heated Rivalry is a book that is a queer hockey romance, which is something that I have also written since 2014, and it has; strangely, some of my best performing books ever over the last decade fall into what I thought was a niche. So I write this niche thing, and people read it and they love it, but you know, it has always stayed in its corner until now. And Rachel Reid is the author of the book called Heated Rivalry, from which this TV show was made very faithfully. And Heated Rivalry is a fantastic novel, by the way. Fantastic conflict, and an interesting story structure. So it has been quite a revelation to watch her book and story reach an audience that I did not feel it was capable of. And there is something about that, that really spoke to all the parts about my, of my business, where, for example, sometimes I have to do research. And early on, I almost felt apologetic about asking an orthopedic surgeon to talk to me about something for a romance novel, because I just assumed that they would roll their eyes. I did it anyway. Thank you, Mark, Dr. Mark, for explaining knee surgery to me. But um, so esteem is a couple of different things. It is choosing projects that I esteem and that I care about, not because I think they’ll sell, but because I love them, and also just realizing that the esteem that comes to various things that we do is not always predictable or measurable or something to rely upon. So I have to esteem it all on my own before I commit the time to do that. And that is how I ended up picking this word that I that I really like. It’s kind of a quiet word. It doesn’t, it isn’t sexy, I guess is, is a word I would describe it, not really, but, um, but it is a, it’s like asks you to pause and measure how we feel about something before we commit. And that is how I ended up there.

Jess Lahey

I love that meaning to the word. I love it.

Jennie Nash

Something that also occurs to me is you spoke with such esteem about this other author and the work that that she’s done, and that’s something that you often do, and you lift up all the writers in lots of different ways. And that esteem you have for the process of writing and the publishing business and the hard work of it comes across as well. So I like that meaning too.

Sarina Bowen

Well thank you. I had an interesting conversation with my 22 year old son, who is quite a reader. Right now he’s trying to get to the end of Crime and Punishmentbefore his semester really kicks in. And he asked me over drinks, on a trip to Boston that I was making time for, so go me, if I could write like anyone, like if I could suddenly have the skills of any author, dead or alive, who would I pick? And I instantly gave him a couple of names in contemporary fiction that he has never read and never will, because there are people who write books that are not for 22 year old nerds. And, um, and he, he sort of blanked and he’s like, no mama, like you could have, you could be Tolstoy, you know, like you could pick anything. And I’m like, no, I’m serious. I have esteem for the things these people are doing in contemporary fiction. And it’s like that, um, that George Michael quote, like, when are you going to make some serious music? And he says, you don’t understand, I’m very serious about pop music. And you know, it’s my right to esteem whatever I choose. And I really do choose this. It’s not; it’s not a runner up thing for me. This is my interest, and I’m going to value it.

Jess Lahey

Hell yeah,

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. Woohoo!

Jennie Nash

I feel like we should end on that.

Jess Lahey

Yeah. I think that’s a good place to stop.

Jennie Nash

That was some power, power language there. We would love our listeners to share in the chat your goals for the year, your words for the year, how you feel about pickles and their touching a bread. [laughing] We would love to hear all the things from you, and until next time, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Take the (long, elegant) Gloves Off and Write Like You Jan 16, 2026

Anyone who ever listened to Jenna Blum do interviews on the A Mighty Blaze podcast will not be one bit surprised to hear that we had a great time talking all things writing but most specifically writing BIG—which Jenna has absolutely done with her current book, Murder Your Darlings. Murder Your Darlings is a contemporary thriller and a real departure from Jenna’s very popular historical fiction—a departure that’s totally in keeping with Jenna’s own enthusiastic, passionate personality. As her agent said, her earlier work was elegant and restrained (although still powerful) but in this one Jenna lets herself loose. We had a wonderful time talking about it, and I know you’ll have a great time listening.

#AmReading

The Plot and The Sequel, Jean Hanff Korelitz

Last Seen, Christopher Castellani

You, Caroline Kepnes

Join Jenna on tour—she’s absolutely a joy to listen to on writing and probably any other topic! Dates HERE.

And do grab Murder Your Darlings—who doesn’t love a tell-all thriller set in this ridiculous industry we all love so much?

Hey—if you’re reading this in January 2026, it’s not too late to join our Blueprint Sprint and get in on a rapid-fire roadmap to writing the book you want to write this year (instead of writing 100K words in search of it… ask me how I know!)

First Blueprint post below—upgrade your subscription to get started.

Episode Transcript Below!

SPONSORSHIP MESSAGE

Hey, this is Jennie. Happy New Year! If you’re a subscriber to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, you can join us in our Blueprint Challenge, which is starting on January 12. We’re going to be working on new book ideas, books where we’re stuck, and books that we’re revising, and using the Blueprint framework to help us get unstuck, get clarity, get confidence, and move forward. KJ is leading the charge this time with some write-alongs, some Ask Me Anything sessions, and all kinds of good stuff to help you on your way. I’ll be jumping in as well, and I’ll be cheering you as you get your books into shape and get ready to write forward in 2026. Details are in the show notes, and we’d love to have you join us.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Hey, writers, KJ here. I just interviewed Jenna Blum, and any of you who have listened to her when she does the interviews on the A Mighty Blaze Podcast will not be one bit surprised to hear that we had a great time talking all things writing, but most specifically, writing big, which Jenna has absolutely done with her current book, Murder Your Darlings. Murder Your Darlings is a contemporary thriller and a real departure from Jenna’s very popular historical fiction, a departure that is totally in keeping with Jenna’s own enthusiastic, passionate personality. As her own agent said, Jenna’s earlier work was elegant and restrained, although absolutely still powerful, as you know if you’ve read it, but in this one, in Murder Your Darlings, Jenna lets herself loose. We had a wonderful time talking about it, and I think you’re going to have a really good time listening. Jenna, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us for the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast.

Jenna Blum

You’re so welcome. I am the one who’s honored to be here. Thanks for having me.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I am really excited. So, listeners, as you probably heard in the intro, which I haven’t recorded yet, I asked Jenna to join us because she’s doing a big thing. She’s making a jump into a new genre for her, and I can totally relate, and I suspect many of you can too. Her new book, which is out approximately now, as you hear this, is kill your dollar, Kill your darlings. [intended title: Murder Your Darlings] And it is one of those, like, if somebody wrote a book just for me, it would be this kind of book, or this possibly exact book, which is such a thrill. It’s, you know, that combination of the thing that makes me my buy now list, which is, isn’t a thing like that thing where you’re like, if you tell me the book is about such and such, I’m like, yes, yeah, just, just take my money. So it’s that, plus that really great, commercial, friendly, accessible, like the voice I want to read. It’s not—I mean, I don’t know if any of those adjectives thrilled you—but easy reading is hard writing, and nobody knows that more than me, and you do that very well.

Jenna Blum

That is so kind of you, KJ. Thank you. So I’m going to rudely start out by issuing a small correction, but the...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh no.

Jenna Blum

Actually, no, no, it’s fine. It’s Murder Your Darlings. And they’re...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh, okay, sorry.

Jenna Blum

Popular phrase. And one of the reasons I call the book Murder Your Darlings, as opposed to kill your darlings, which people tend to gravitate to, is that the book is really about writerly appropriation in the biggest way, about story thievery in the biggest possible go big or go home kind of way. And the phrase kill your darlings is itself an appropriation, which I didn’t know until I started writing this. But the original phrase is Murder Your Darlings. It was coined by a gentleman called Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch in 1914, and he was giving a lecture on good writing, and he said, whenever you think you’ve done something exceptionally clever in your manuscript, by all means, put it in, and then go in and take it out: murder your darlings. And then William Faulkner ran with it, and Stephen King ran with it, and it became really popularized. And I thought, how cool to go back to the original in a book about appropriation. So it’s Murder Your Darlings.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It’s also—that’s better. I can’t believe I got it wrong, because it has this great cover with the quill and the blood. And I—it that’s, that’s better. It’s just it, I don’t know, kill your darlings has also become a very glib phrase. So to switch it to Murder Your Darlings kind of makes—kind of gives you that record scratch moment of like, oh, oh wait. Oh! Right? So I like it.

Jenna Blum

I appreciate that. Thank you. I mean, I myself was thinking, kill your darling, so I love to, sort of like, care what of that phrase, that Murder Your Darlings had a sort of a weightier sound to it. And despite, like, the joy that I had in writing about writing, and I hope all your listeners just like me, I’m—my must order now books are all about writers, about writers about writing, especially fiction about writing. I had so much joy in that, but the book also has some pretty weighty subjects at its heart as well. So I feel like that weightier murder is somehow indicative of...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Well, that brings us really well to the next question that I wanted to ask you, which is, what was your intention around this? This is definitely, you—now I think probably we step out with every book, but this is you stepping out and playing big, which is, you know, is a new theme that we’re talking about around here. So what was your intention for Murder Your Darlings? What did you want it to be?Jenna Blum

I love that you’re doing the go big or go home theme. I always think that way. I’m not a quiet writer, not probably, not a quiet person.KJ Dell’Antonia

You’re not really, no, not—that’s not what I would say. Oh, Jenna, she’s so shy and retiring...yeah. Yeah.Jenna Blum

So I had so much joy and so much fun writing Murder Your Darlings, because all I had to do was unpack my life. She’s such a wallflower. My sister saw a photo of me with a megaphone at a—as an activist at a rally, and she’s like, nobody here is surprised. This is what I’ve been living with for all the years. Anyway. So my intent with this was really just to have some fun, honestly. I have been working on historical fiction, and I’m known primarily for historical fiction, and I was working on historical fiction when the idea for Murder Your Darlings came to me, and I felt like I had two books trying to elbow their way through a doorway at the same time. And because I am more known for historical fiction, and my editor had already green lighted that idea, I was very dutifully working along on it—and it was a terrific idea, I have to say, like on paper. It was an idea on paper that should have been good, but it really wasn’t. There was no juice to it. So I kept writing, and then thinking, right, what was the motivation? What did the character actually want in that scene? And then I would realize I had no idea and didn’t care. And so I was thinking about Murder Your Darlings, which is about a female writer—mid career, female writer who falls in love with a stratospherically successful and very charming male writer and then finds out that he may or may not be killing female writers to take their stories, or is it one of the number of women who are stalking him, especially this very persistent stalker named the Rabbit. And so I had this idea kind of elbowing its way into my head, and I thought, I don’t, I don’t know if I’m qualified to write a thriller. I’ve written a thriller. Who am I to do this? And then I read Jean Hanff Korelitz’s The Plot, which is so good, so contemporary, so fresh, so funny, so smart, so everything. And I stalked her. I called her, got her phone number, called her, and said, how was it for you making this pivot, going from quote, literary fiction end quote, to writing a thriller? And she said, I just write what I want to write and let other people market it. You should write what you write. And I thought, Babu, because I had always loved reading about writers. I’ve always wanted to write about writers, and she kind of gave me—well, she literally gave me permission to do it.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And like you said, it really has some bigger themes around that. Did they come with? Did they come with the idea? Did some of them come with the idea, and some of them had to get pulled in later? Like, how? How did that piece of it play out?

Jenna Blum

Yeah, great question. I am a writer who always knows what her theme is going to be. I would have a mission statement on the board in my study saying, like, here’s what this book is about, and then I hope it reaches the reader through osmosis, as opposed to me being preached. So the plot has to express that idea. But then I am so plot focused when I’m writing and just wanting to get all the blocking down and get this play down so the reader doesn’t get bored that I have to go back through often and shade in the theme and the emotional resonances I hope are there. And one of the very big themes for me in Murder Your Darlings is of codependency, and what makes a smart, successful woman with a stable life, a good community, who’s a teacher, who’s a writer, who has really built her life for herself, fall for somebody who she knows very well may be sketchy AF. It’s like, okay, I’m just going to keep my hand on the hot stove. You know? Why is that? And I feel like, if you know a woman like this, if you were a woman like this, you are a woman like this. I certainly have been this way my whole life, like falling for the sketchy dudes and feeling great shame about it. I thought, I really want to write this book for all of us, or women or men—I should say this is not gender specific.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah.

Jenna Blum

Or that person who’s like, don’t open that door, and you open the door anyway.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah.

Jenna Blum

Why?

KJ Dell’Antonia

And people are like, so many flags, and you’re like, I kind of like flags.

Jenna Blum

But he’s... but he’s so cute.

KJ Dell’Antonia

He looks so good in red.

Jenna Blum

Right? Exactly. And I have to say that the relationship at the center of the book between Sam, the female writer, and William, who’s the male writer, they do have some really rare commonalities too that are hard for Sam to overlook. And she comes from a trauma background, so she can’t trust her own instincts. And so I wanted to, as in all of my novels, work with people who have survived trauma: how they react in the atmosphere and the aftermath, and how their behavior gets kind of torqued or twisted, and sometimes makes it difficult for them to make the healthy decision, which makes...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Right!

Jenna Blum

Good fiction. Good fiction is about people making bad, bad, bad decisions, so...

KJ Dell’Antonia

And you make him real too. He’s not just bad for the hell of it. You know, it’s not—I— that’s one of the things that is a pet peeve of mine in books, is when you’re like, yeah, that person had really bad parents that really messed them up. But why? Like, yeah. I mean, you can’t have everyone and their parents mess them up. And I would totally do that instantly. That’s my beige flag. Would you like to know how their great, great grandparents screwed everyone up with epigenetics?

Jenna Blum

It’s like the poem, right? Is it the Larkin poem? They

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh, yeah, “They screwed him up,” yeah, yeah. But I always know, like, who screwed them up? And hey, who screwed them up? And who screwed them up?

Jenna Blum

That’s a funny thing. Thank you for saying that. So William, and a third of the book is narrated from William’s point of view, and then Sam and the stalker the Rabbit get the other two thirds of the book, and Sam and the Rabbit go back and forth, and William has his own narration at the center of the book. I have to say, I loved writing William. I really did. He’s first person, like, in the guy’s skin. He is really arrogant, like, really narcissistic, and he was, and could never use a, you know, five cent word when a $30,000 word will do. But I really loved writing him, because, as you said, you’re right, like, he doesn’t, he doesn’t mean to be any of those things. And I mean, we all recognize a narcissist, which is such a hot word these days, and I mean, he is a legitimate narcissist, but he doesn’t need to be narcissistic. He just is that way, and he has his reasons that are very clear for being that way. And it wasn’t until—this is when you ask him, before, what did I put in afterwards?—it wasn’t until I was really done writing his first draft, and one of my writer friends said to me, but like, what were his parents like? And I thought, I don’t care. Like, I don’t care what his home life was like. I don’t care about any of that. But when I did go into that room, because I knew I had to, there were things in that room that were a chamber of horrors, that were like, truly grotesque. And I thought, this actually makes sense to help explain why he’s motivated the way he is.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And why she would be drawn to him. Like, you know, he’s not just—there’s there is more in there. I, you know, not to excuse, not to excuse William. Is he the first character you’ve written that was, that was like that, deeply narcissistic, and in the first person?

Jenna Blum

That is a great question. He’s not the first character I’ve written who is narcissistic. In my first novel, Those Who Save Us, there’s a Nazi officer who is deeply narcissistic and also totally unaware of his own qualities, which I guess actually defines a narcissist, like they have...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh yeah, yeah. I think if you know you’re a narcissist, you’re not a narcissist.

Jenna Blum

Right? Exactly, right, right. Nobody’s going to be like, I’m a narcissist. Who cares? I love being a narcissist. They’re more like the world serves to please me, and if it doesn’t, then the world is wrong. But this is the first I’ve written from the first person, and in fact, this is the first novel I’ve written anything in the first person. So the Rabbit in this book is first person—the stalker—and William is in the first person. Sam is third person. And I haven’t written in first person since graduate school, and when I did, I was kind of soundly spanked for it. And they’re like; there are graduate school scenes in this book as well. And in Murder Your Darlings, the workshop scenes that I love so much, because I pretty much just airlifted them from the [unintelligible].

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, which is the best. Absolutely.

Jenna Blum

And it’s so fun, so much fun to write, like grad school, boot camp, you know whatever... I’m here for all of that. Murders the people who it doesn’t make stronger, but, but yeah, I remember writing...

KJ Dell’Antonia

So what was that like to—what is it like to switch your normal writing perspective, so the POV to first person? And did you, did you do it from the right away? Or did you, you know, did you write it the wrong way and then switch it? How did—and did it bother you? Were you like, oh, no, I don’t know if I can do this?

Jenna Blum

No. I loved it very much. I loved it so much. And William was actually not even supposed to be in the book, so I can talk about that in a minute, but the first, first person character to come in was the Rabbit, and she wasn’t originally supposed to be there either. It was supposed to be Sam narrating, and the third limited, which is my lane, and I’ve been in that for years and years. And I do love it. I love Sam’s voice as well. But the Rabbit came to me on Christmas Day. I want to say 2023, and I was thinking about Sam’s relationship with William, and how Sam, which is still in Murder Your Darlings, gets very jealous, because she knows that William is really opaque about his relationships with other women, and he cannot resist the charms of the opposite gender, shall we say. So Sam is stalking him. She still stalks him a little bit in this book. And I thought, what if one of the other women were also stalking him alongside Sam? And what would that look like? And I was supposed to be at a friend’s house on Christmas Day. Our whole family got the flu. I was lying in my apartment in Boston feeling wretchedly sorry for myself. It was raining. It wasn’t even snowing. It was a sort of Dickensian awfulness. And I was lying around feeling bad for myself and thinking about this, as one does. And then all of a sudden, I jumped up and ran into my study and put my hands on the keyboard and wrote what would become the prologue of the novel. It is unchanged, in that.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Wow!

Jenna Blum

And she just came out of freaking nowhere. And I will tell you, it was like plugging my hands into a socket. Like, every time I sat down to write the Rabbit, I just felt electrified. Her voice is not my voice. She’s very colloquial. She’s the person who tells it like it is, speaks truth to power, sits down at the kitchen table and says, like, look, here’s what you got to do. You all just follow suit, we’re going to do, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she just really is very plain spoken and very funny and very sarcastic. I think she’s also not me in terms of, like, what she looks like, in terms of her background. She comes from a poverty background. She comes from an abuse background. She’s a bookseller, which actually I was. But it was astonishing that, like, every day, when I looked at my schedule and I knew I had to write the Rabbit, I was like, oh, thank God, because every time I put my hands on the keyboard, she was there. And I just got such a kick out of her—stalking William, stalking Sam. I think she’s amazing. And there’s a big surprise tied up to the Rabbit. So not to spoil anything, but those of you who love, you know, your twists in your fiction will, I think, be—hopefully—be gratified by, by the twist with the Rabbit. William came in about halfway through. I want to say maybe the first draft. I was going Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, and I was going into the second section of the book, act two, and I was going to continue doing that. And I had this whole outline. Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit—rising action. I knew all my plot points all sketched out. And then one day, I was like, what if, instead of sort of reheating these leftovers and trying to make the action continue to step ladder up, what if William gets a section in all of his William glory and all of his narcissistic glory? And that kind of gives the reader a little bit more reason to be hopeful for Sam and also scared for her, because we know from his perspective what his life was really like, and he’s not being truthful with her about it. And I called my editor and said, I’m going to do this thing, maybe, with your permission. Like, do you mind if I write, you know, some sample William chapters? And I was so nervous about it. I had this whole defense about it. Here’s why this is going to be good. She was like; I think that’s a brilliant idea. Do the whole section from his point of view, if you want to, if you want to. I think that’s great. And again, sitting down to write, I felt like I plug my hands into this socket. But William grounds the whole book with this sort of dark electricity, I think, because he is...

KJ Dell’Antonia

So you already had it from the other points of view? Did you have it planned, or did you have it written?

Jenna Blum

I had it planned. I had a plan. I had bits of scenes. I had snippets of scenes and chapters. But I have scenes they dearly love that are not in the book at all because William usurped...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Because he can’t—yeah, he doesn’t—well, and he is not there.

Jenna Blum

Access, no. But, I mean, I kind of flipped them inside out in like a pocket, into, like, other parts of the book, so that, like, I know what Sam and the Rabbit are doing during William’s sections. And you see them, of course...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, yeah.

Jenna Blum

From his point of view instead. It was not a darling I had to murder. Like, again, like sitting down to write his point of view was a relief, in some ways, to get out of my own skin. Getting into somebody else’s skin, in the first person, is the farthest you can go from yourself if that character is not, in fact, you. And that’s why I love writing fiction. I get out of my own skin into somebody else’s skin; walk around in that virtual reality. I just freaking love it. It’s the best part—kind of insanity there is.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So with this project, what did you love most about the process? Sounds like there’s going to be—sounds like there’s a competition, because it really sounds like you had—I mean, I’m sure there were some hard moments. We’ll get to that. That’s my next question, actually. But what did you love most? What do you love most about how it turned out, and what did you love most about doing it?

Jenna Blum

I love all the things. I literally have goosebumps when you say this. I mean, it is a competition, because I love this book so much. And I know you’re not supposed to say it about your own books, but I do. I just love this book, and it might be my favorite book that I’ve written. My favorite. I love it so, so much. I hope readers feel the same way. I think one of the reasons I love it so much is I think it’s really funny. Like, there was never a single day where I sat down to work on this book that I didn’t snort laugh, like, in the middle of the scene, because William is so charming and yet so horrible and fatuous and whatever. So he really made me laugh, whether I’m viewing him from the outside or from inside. And the worse he gets the more funny I thought he was. The Rabbit, likewise, in her speaking truth to power kind of way. And then Sam sections allowed me to spill the tea about the weirdness and the wonderfulness of the writer life, much of which is just so peculiar, whether you’re on tour or you’re trying to, you know, zhuzh an idea into being and you can’t quite get it, or, you know, being in a relationship with another writer. I mean, all of those things are just—they’re just nuts. And so every day I sat down and laughed and laughed and laughed and, like, cackled in my apartment, scaring the dog. And I thought it was so much fun. And now looking at the book and, like, holding it in my hands, I can open it to any page and be like, yeah, oh my God, I totally remember that line that was so great. So I hope people have fun with it. The early reviews that have come in have been, thank God, you know, Inshallah, they were great. And that’s what people have been saying. It’s a delicious book. It’s a fun book. It’s a delightful book. Nobody’s ever said this about my books before.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It’s totally very different. It’s totally, really different than your other work, right?

Jenna Blum

Yes. Well, I mean, I think so. Like, when you’re not writing historical fiction, fiction requires—or at least it did for me—because I’m writing about big, serious things, you’re writing about World War Two, it’s probably not going to be all that funny. But I feel like the third person voice that I’ve been using most of my authorial career has been hopefully elegant and restrained, because I really, you know, working with my word choices—every author does—but I’m trying to maintain a very even narrative tone. This one is just so freaking off the chain, because I got to write in a contemporary way. I got to get into the first person, other people’s voices, other people’s experiences. It was interesting. My agent, who’s very, very smart, and she is French, and when I came to her and said, you know that historical fiction that you thought I was writing, it’s actually not that. It’s a thriller. That’s something different. She read it, and I was, again, sort of terrified of what she would say. And she called me, and she was like, [imitating her French accent] “Jenna, I think what you are doing is smart, but more than that, I think it is brave, because your whole life you have hide behind this voice you use for your historicals. And instead, this is like, really, you taking the gloves off. This is your voice. This is you.” And I just felt so validated and empowered by that observation.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That is exactly why we were—we are here. If this is—it’s so, so meet. We are meeting for the first time. Lots of times when I get somebody on the podcast, we’ve never encountered each other, and your vibe is so Murder Your Darlings. And really, you know, at this point in your life and in your career, this is really, you know, who you’re presenting as. And I, of course, don’t know how you presented, you know—maybe we should go back seven years to before a lot of things that have evolved in your life. I don’t know whether you were maybe a little more elegant and restrained yourself. I have no idea.

Jenna Blum

Uh uhh, never.

KJ Dell’Antonia

No?

Jenna Blum

Nope.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I mean, it must feel so great to have released that part of yourself into this much, you know, loved part of your world.

Jenna Blum

It just feels so much easier in a lot of ways. I remember—and I’m thinking about this while we’re talking—lying on the couch and watching the You series by Caroline Kepnes, like, based on a series of books that she’s written that are really tremendously good. And I remember I was looking for a binge at the time. I just finished something that was fantastic. And, like, you know, what am I going to watch? And I clicked into You, and I was so happy that I did because I thought, this woman writes the way people actually speak. Her dialogue is so smart. It’s so Cracker Jack. It’s so spot on. And I am now friends with Caroline. Caroline is amazing, and I remember saying that to her the first time I met her, just as a total fangirl. Like, how did you do that? She was like, this is just how I write, and I have not been giving myself permission for years and years to do that.

But in fact, again, my agent would say to me, you know, [imitating her French accent] “You write these, these book, and you go to your readings and people think they’re going to meet, like, Margaret Thatcher or something, because books are very serious and very heavy and very, you know, weighty about this big topic, and then you are a goofball.” And I am!

KJ Dell’Antonia

I love the French accent you are giving us here. As a student of French, I’m particularly enjoying it.

Jenna Blum

Oh, I’m so sorry then, because my agent hates when I do this. She hates it. She’s like; please don’t use the French accent. I’m like, I have to use it. And she’s in the book, and her name is Mireille, and I wrote her exactly as she speaks. And she—my editor, whose name is Sara Nelson—is in the book as Patricia, and I pulled no punches or even tried to disguise them whatsoever. And they like to bicker over who is more important in the book, Mireille or Patricia. So that’s super fun. But I mean, I do think there is something really liberating about entering a scene, entering a chapter, and thinking, I don’t have to fancify this language. I don’t have to smooth over its edges. If I want to say somebody is sketchy AF, I say they’re sketchy AF.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, I don’t have to figure out how someone would have said that in 1942, which is—I mean, I do—I don’t want to—your past work, which I haven’t read all of, but what I have read is very much infused with a humanity and a female power. It may be elegant and restrained, but it’s in there. It’s like, you know, coiled, but it’s in there. So I don’t want to propose that those books aren’t really you. But this is, you know, this is definitely more who you come out of the box as.

Jenna Blum

Yeah, there won’t be such a mismatch with this for readers who are coming to my work for the first time. If you do that and then you see me in person, you’ll be like, oh, this totally tracks, as opposed to... And I think one of the great things about writing fiction is you can be in that sort of disguise. And my previous fiction, the historical fiction—and I did have one contemporary novel in there as well—I think the topics were just not as funny to me. Like, writing life is very funny, and contemporary life is funny. But I think that writing historical fiction enables you to get in a time machine and go back and put on a different set of clothes, and that is reflected in the narration. And this, I think, shares some commonality with my other fiction, in that, like William, I am a friend of big vocabulary. Like, I love my vocabulary. I love to deploy. But it just feels more bouncy to me. Like, it just feels buoyant and super energized. And I love it. Like, I have three more thrillers lined up in my head on the runway that I would love to write.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s amazing.

Jenna Blum

So I’m really excited about—I hope this book does well. So everybody should buy it, please, so I can write more thrillers. Please.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Everyone do that. We’re going to put all the links for that in the show notes. So one more question before we turn to me asking you about other people’s books. What was the hardest thing about writing this? I have a guess for what you’re going to say, but I want to hear what you say first.

Jenna Blum

I don’t know if there was a hard thing about writing this book.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I was going to say; maybe it was giving yourself permission to do it in the first place.

Jenna Blum

Oh, interesting. No. I mean, that’s more about marketing, in some ways. I had to get permission. I didn’t want my agent to be like, no, this sucks. I mean, she would try to sell it no matter what, but I really...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh, you’re such a disappointment.

Jenna Blum

Right? If we must write it. Nash, my editor as well—I’ve been with my agent for 24 years, and I had been with my editor for, like, almost 10 years now, which is pretty amazing.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, that’s the dream.

Jenna Blum

So glad to have one on one shoulder and one on the other shoulder. So I didn’t want them to both be like, oh gosh, she’s writing a thriller, everybody writing a thriller. What was the hard thing about writing this book? I think the fact that I’m no longer writing it, honestly. It’s one of those, like, tough act to follow books. You know, I think about other ideas and I’m like, but they’re not darlings, though. So, like, I really had so much fun with this book that when I was done, I was really bummed. I will say that there is a paragraph toward the end of the book that is, for me, the heart and the soul of the entire book. And I’m always curious about other writers, whether they have these paragraphs that are really the sort of nut graph of the whole piece, to use a journalistic term—like, the whole, the heart of it. And I cannot read that paragraph without crying. And I revised this book eleventy-two times, and I could never get through it without weeping. I read the whole thing aloud when I was in the copy edit stage, and I was like, you know. So, I mean, is that hard? I don’t know if that’s hard, but it was like a part that stabbed me, I think. And then the rest of it is just, like, a pure freaking joy. And I really hope people feel the same way, because, I mean, it’s just—why not bring joy?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Why not bring joy? That is the thing that has stuck with me most about stuff I’ve read most recently about writing. And unfortunately, I’ve already forgotten where I saw it, but someone was saying, if you’re read, why should people read your book? What are you—what are you giving them? They were like, if, if your whole point is, but I worked so hard, that is not how this works. But yeah, like, great. I mean yay. But also, I mean, what’s in it for me, man? I’m the reader, and what’s in it for me? And joy is the answer that I want. So I think it’s going to be the answer everyone else wants too.

Jenna Blum

And, like deliciousness and fun and hopefully—I mean, I write all of my books at the bottom line, at the common denominator, to help people feel less alone in their experiences. So if people read this book and they’re like, oh my God, I was totally—say I’m walking into this relationship—oh my God, oh my God, that’s me, oh my God. Like, I really hope that people see themselves in her.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, it’s the gift of getting yourself, getting out of your head and also seeing yourself more clearly.

Jenna Blum

Yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That, to me, is the hope with fiction.

Jenna Blum

Yep, totally agree. You get to escape. You get to have an adventure. You get to feel the work through somebody else’s experience. And then you also get to feel like, whatever your weirdo experience—all weirdos—like, you’re not alone in that experience. We are here.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I love it. All right. Well, switching gears completely, tell me what you’ve read recently where, again, we’ve talked really hard about this—this book was a leap. It was a great leap for you. You’re playing big. What have you read recently where you could tell that the writer was also playing big, going, going to the outside of their abilities?

Jenna Blum

Yeah, I think—I mean, I know so many talented writers. I think they’re just trying out different keys the same way I am. And my answer really runs along my own track, because there are a lot of writers I know who are writing thriller or true crime disguised as fiction type of stuff, who have been primarily and previously known as quote literary fiction, end quote, and just, like, a term that that I don’t like. But when I say that, I really mean when the attention is paid so much to the language and the characters, and you can be a little more experimental in form, et cetera. But I think really, like Jean Hanff Korelitz, who I mentioned earlier.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yep, I loved The Plot and The Sequel. They’re both great.

Jenna Blum

I love The Plot and The Sequel. I did not have the pleasure of interviewing Jean for The Plot, although somebody on [unintelligible] did. But I did have the pleasure of interviewing her for The Sequel. And I was fascinated by, like, that is a go big thing, because everybody’s like, oh, The Sequel is not as good as the original. So even to write a sequel in the first place is going really big in my work.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And then to, to have it be what it was. I actually, in some ways, thought it was better. But, I mean, they were both great. I really enjoyed both of them, but The Sequel was just like, “ooohh, oooww,” in the way it just... Anyway. It was, it was very skillful.

Jenna Blum

I loved that it was really ingenious. And I loved talking to her about thrillers. I was like, how do you do this when you have a plot and you need to figure out, you know, at the end, how do you surprise the reader? And she said, it’s like going down a long hallway filled with doors, and you keep opening a door and closing the door. You know, that’s not the answer to the plot problem. That’s not the answer. That’s not the answer. That’s not the answer. And at the end, you have only one door left, and that is your thriller solution. Like, that’s the twist ending. And I was like, people plan that? I mean, I have to plan everything. I plan going to the market, you know. I’m like that person. And, you know, she didn’t. She doesn’t plan it. And I thought that was [unintelligible].

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, I too am a planner. And that boggles my mind. I don’t mind if the plan then changes, but without—I could not. I cannot operate without the plan.

Jenna Blum

I can’t write without the plan, even if I’m not writing a thriller. So to write a thriller that is still satisfying and not have that delicate calibration of, yes, this is the surprise that I’m going to plant in chapter 39—that’s astonishing. So she is one. And my friend Chris Castellani, who has the book coming out February 17—I want to say its called Last Seen. And Chris is a beautiful literary writer. He had a book called A Kiss from Maddalena that grew into a series of three books. His last book was called Leading Men, and he got a review in The New York Times that said his prose was—I memorized this, not because I’m jealous, don’t worry—was opaline, and likened him to F. Scott Fitzgerald. And I remember calling out that review, and I was like, sir, you should get that as a tramp stamp. I certainly would. And so he has this reputation as this fine, fine literary writer, and he decided to go into true crime slash thriller territory alongside me. And I’m so glad our books are out at almost the same time so we can kind of keep each other company in this venture. So Chris’s book, Last Seen, is about the victims of the smiley face killer, and they are all of these young men who are killed by the smiley face killer, narrating from within the frozen rivers in which they are trapped, dead. So they’re, like, sort of narrating from beyond.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Well, that’s still experimental. He did not fully leave his form.

Jenna Blum

He didn’t, and it’s...

KJ Dell’Antonia

He’s taking his form with him.

Jenna Blum

Yeah, he is, in a way that I don’t know if I have or not. And I would leave that for greater minds to determine. I mean, I hope that what I’m writing is still smart. And again, there’s the big vocabulary, but, but there does seem to be more of a jump in some ways. But Chris—it is a little sort of Virgin Suicides, I guess, but from the point of view of all of these lost boys. But you also get what their family members are saying, or the people who love them, the last time they saw them. And it’s this beautiful, sort of kaleidoscopic endeavor that also provides satisfying answers as to who did this. So he’s taking his craft and applying it to almost a whodunit in a way. And I think it’s really ingenious and really fascinating to watch this track change from the outside, where I feel like it’s almost like T. S. Eliot is writing a thriller—like that’s kind of how it reads—except with more sex and death. And Chris and I are going to speak together at Politics and Prose on March 5, I want to say, and we...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Now I can put that in the show notes, because this will be out. If anybody’s in the DC area, you could hit Politics and Prose.

Jenna Blum

Yeah, come on down.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That would be amazing.

Jenna Blum

We are calling our panel the sex and death panel, or the sex and death conversation, because both our books are so sexy and so deathly. And then my friend Alex George, who I love, said, well, you should invite an accountant to be on your panel, and then it could be sex, death, and tax.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yes.

Jenna Blum

Which we’re not going to do, but...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh well.

Jenna Blum

But that’s funny.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh well, they’ll, they’ll charge sales tax or something. It’ll—they’re still taxes. Taxes will always be with us.

Jenna Blum

Right. Exactly. Sex, death, and taxes. So come on out for sex, death, and taxes. And the book Last Seen. And it’s just—it’s really haunting. It’s a very haunting book.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I love this. Well, I know that what’s next for you is a pretty big tour for this, which I will put all the links to in the show notes, not to raise the bar. But are you? Are you already working at—this is sort of, this is actually more like a craft question. Are you already working on something new? Are you noodling something new? How do you manage this process part of your writing?

Jenna Blum

I’m noodling something new. For all of the ventures into new territory, I haven’t been able to change my spots yet in terms of process, which, for somebody writing thrillers, is not great, because you can, you know, hopefully turn them out faster than fiction. To me, the historical fiction requires so much research that took me much longer to write. But I do have those ideas lined up. I think what I like to do with ideas is I kind of roll them around in my head like marbles to see if they are going to stick around, or if they’re going to roll down a hole and disappear somewhere, like a little rabbit hole. And then you know that they don’t have stick-to-itiveness. All three of the ideas that I’m thinking about are still there. The thing for me is I’m a very single-task person, and when I’m promoting, I’m really promoting. Like, my tour—amazingly bananas. Like, I am going to be in a different place every single day connecting with readers, like Sam in Murder Your Darlings, the heroine. I write to connect with readers. I don’t write for the joy of the writing, although I love this book and enjoyed writing it so much. Like, I write because I want it to meet you guys and be out there, like talking about my book, talking about other books. So when I’m on tour, I don’t actually write. And I was saying this to my friend the other day, Dawn Tripp, who’s also an amazing writer, who wrote Jackie, and has been on tour. She did something like 162—I’m making it up—but she...

KJ Dell’Antonia

I actually saw her at... outside Boston, the Newburyport Book Festival. Oh, I know, which is amazing, which I also will be at. Yeah. That’s a great festival.

Jenna Blum

Yeah, it’s so good. And I’m going to be in conversation with my editor, so if you have any...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh, there? At the Newburyport festival? I’m sure—I usually go. So that sounds great.

Jenna Blum

Please come, please come. Because that’ll be really fun, because she can spill the tea on, on, like, how disorganized I might actually be. But Dawn—I was saying—she’s like, oh, I’m home now. I’m so happy I can write. I was like; I can’t imagine how you would have written on that tour. And she said, oh, no, I write every day, because if I don’t, I don’t feel great, you know, I don’t feel great in my own skin. And I was like, that’s just nuts, man. Like, I’m going—I’m done with this book. I’m going to Nordstrom Rack. I’m going to go shopping. I’m not touching another book for five years. But I do, I’m kind of looking forward to being back this summer. I have a couple of months that I think are slower, and I want to develop those ideas. So let’s see if I can, you know...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Let him audition a little more loudly.

Jenna Blum

Yeah, I love that audition. That’s so great. I’m going to steal that, but I’ll credit you.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, yeah. It’s all yours. All right. This was so great. Thank you so much. This was a super fun conversation, and I’m going to enjoy creating the intro and writing up the show notes for it. And, gosh, I hope everybody goes out and buys this too. It is a wholly enjoyable experience, a great way to cleanse your palate from your January, your December, whatever, whatever that may have been. And now in January, you know, come Murder Your Darlings with Jenna. You’ll—you won’t be sorry.

Jenna Blum

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This is a sheer, pure delight. Thank you.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Thank you. Okay, writers, until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Finding the Ideal Reader: How the Blueprint Shaped a Physician’s Next Project (Bonus Episode) Jan 10, 2026

This is a Bonus Episode, which means that it doesn’t have any of the beautiful audio engineering from our amazing team.

In this Bonus Episode, Jennie Nash talks with physician-writer Carolyn Roy Bornstein about how one Blueprint exercise brought clarity to a long-stalled book project. By identifying a single ideal reader, Carolyn was able to see exactly who she was writing for and shape A Prescription for Burnout with purpose and focus.

They discuss why audience clarity matters and how the Blueprint can unlock momentum at the right moment in the writing process.

Our guest, Carolyn Roy Bornstein, MD is a retired pediatrician, narrative medicine teacher, and author whose work explores the healing power of reflective writing. Her forthcoming book, A Prescription for Burnout: Restorative Writing for Healthcare Professionals, will be published by Johns Hopkins University Press. Carolyn draws on her clinical experience, her own journey through trauma and recovery, and her work with healthcare trainees to help writers—and caregivers—find voice, purpose, and resilience through the written word.

Join Us for the Blueprint Challenge Starting January 12

Hi there supporters and subscribers! Many of you are joining the Winter Blueprint for a Book, and if that’s you, you must opt-in to receive posts, AMAs, write-alongs and podcasts. In 10 weeks, future you will be thanking current you for all the work you put in to figure out what you want this book to be—and how to best get it there, whether you’re starting fresh with a new draft or revising something that still hasn’t come together.

If you don’t opt in (how-to below), this will be the only Blueprint-related email that comes your way. (So no worries and no extra emails for those of us having a normal chaotic writing season!)

And for those of you who haven’t yet signed up—WHAT are you waiting for? This is a killer deal—put in an hour a week (okay, maybe more some weeks) and you could have a blueprint in hand by March—with a cohort, AMAs, write-alongs and plenty of help. Last chance—or at least, this is the last time we’ll prod you. If you decide to jump in next week, we’ll be here.

Want to learn more? We published a whole series about the joys and benefits of the Blueprint:

* What the Blueprint is and why Jennie made it

* Introducing the winter book coach hosts

* Overcoming Pantsing Pitfalls: How the Blueprint Method Can Save Your Story

* The Blueprint is the Solution for Time-Strapped Writers

* How to Use a Blueprint for Revision

* Befriending the Blueprint

* Using Mindfulness to Master the Blueprint

Not yet a paid subscriber? There’s still time—in fact, there’s still a special deal in place for those who want to jump in: 20% off an annual subscription until 1/15/25, and you can spend the next ten weeks figuring out what you want this book to be, instead of writing 250K words over the course of the year to achieve the same thing. Ask me how I know.

To join Blueprint for a Book, you must opt-in and set up your podcast feed. Don’t worry, it’s simple! Click here to go to your #AmWriting account, and when you see this screen, do two things:

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (orange).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Winter 2025 Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions. (It is MUCH easier to do this step on your phone.)

Once you set those things up, you’ll get all the future Blueprint emails and podcasts (and if you’re joining the party a bit late, just head to our website and click on Blueprint for a Book Winter 2025 in the top menu).

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

December Booklab Dec 23, 2025

It’s the December Booklab, and while our booklabs are normally only for subscribers, we’ve made this one free as a little present to you—something to listen to while all the other pods are having a well deserved break.How this works: we’ve chosen two among the brave souls who have submitted their first pages (i.e. first 350 words) to us. As always, we read the page aloud, with no other information other than genre and (sometimes) title. We talk about what we read, how it was received, what we think we do and don’t know about the book and what we should know. We offer constructive comments to these writers, and to all writers, on how to make that first page work as hard for you as it can.

And then we answer the question: would we turn the page?

Kids, those first pages have to WORK. People download a book, or grab an audio sample, often without the benefit of your flap copy or the beautiful cover, and you need to sell them on sticking around from that first minute.

The two entries for this episode:

* The Burning Truth is a commercial thriller centered on a woman whose sister’s death is reopened when a teenage true-crime podcaster starts investigating a case that hits dangerously close to home.

* Camil and Bloom is contemporary literary fiction about a middle-aged woman at a bar grappling with being ghosted, using sharp observational detail to explore loneliness, aging, and stalled lives.

Our takeaway is that a first page must work with extreme efficiency: it needs to establish character, stakes, and story direction all at once. Vivid details and strong writing aren’t enough on their own; those details have to be focused and clearly tied to the protagonist’s emotional core so readers understand whose story this is and why it matters. A compelling hook helps, but clarity of perspective and purpose is what ultimately makes a reader turn the page.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Blueprint for Revision: The System That Makes Revision Finally Make Sense Dec 19, 2025

Most writers start revision by re-reading their manuscript from page one — but that’s the least effective way to improve a book. In this episode, Jenny explains a clearer, more strategic way to revise using the Blueprint and the 3D Revision Process. You’ll learn how to step back, see your book with fresh eyes, and create a plan that actually moves your manuscript from good to great.

We also invite you to join the upcoming Blueprint Sprint.

In this episode you’ll learn:

* Why a full-manuscript read is often the wrong first step in revision

* The mindset shift every writer needs before diving into revisions

* How to use the Blueprint to create a clear, confident revision plan before touching your pages

Join the Blueprint Sprint

Starting January 12 and rolling though February, KJ Dell’Antonia and Jennie Nash will lead you through the 14 foundational questions that every writer should ask of themselves and their book, whether you’re just getting started, are mid-draft or starting on on the whatever-number revision with weekly assignments, live events, workbooks and updated access to all the Blueprint resources. All you need to do is be a paid subscriber and stay tuned—we’ll let you know how to get signed up.

I NEED a January Blueprint!

APPLICATIONS CLOSED What if you want even MORE? Then you could be one of a very few #AmWriting subscribers who join our first ever Blueprint Sprint cohort. 6 weeks of working together and write-alongs, 5 group-only live sessions, which will be recorded for anyone who can’t attend and a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a Blueprint that leads you to the book you want to write, ending with direct feedback from me and from Jennie on your flap copy and 3 page Inside-Outline.

We’re keeping this small on purpose—we max out at 10 and we might drop that down—so applications to join this group open today and will be evaluated on a first-come, first serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we will close down the application, so get yours in early! Early-bird pricing is $1000 until December 22, after that the price goes up to $1200 (if there are spaces left by then).

What are we looking for? 10 writers who are prepared to commit to the process and to the cohort, who do what they set out to do when they set out to do it, who welcome constructive feedback and are willing to do what it takes to build a blueprint for the book they want to create. Writers who know that sometimes you must look a hard truth in the face and cut your losses, that what goes in the scrap heap is rarely resurrected but that the scrap heap is a necessary part of the work. Writers who won’t take no for an answer, but can hear “not this” and feel both disappointment and a burning determination that the next effort will be the one that gets there.

Also: no a******s.

What will you need to apply? We want to hear about your professional and publishing backgrounds, but no publishing experience is necessary. We want to know where you are with this current project, but “still noodling” is a fine answer. The primary requirements are first, a readiness to do the work and second and more ephemerally, our sense of what makes a cohesive cohort.

If that sounds like you, here you go—the time to apply is now.

Links & Resources

* Learn more about the Blueprint tools

* Substack about how each genre has a different primary goal in the Blueprint

* #amwriting Episode about the Blueprint origin story and why it’s such a powerful tool:

Transcript Below!

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

“Revision means stepping back, thinking big picture, and being brave enough to rebuild.”

SPONSORSHIP MESSAGE

Hi writers, the Winter Blueprint Challenge 2026 is on, and I can’t wait to do it, and I can’t wait to tell you about it. Okay, so this time around, we’re going to have two ways to play. First, we’ll run the Blueprint for supporters, 10 weeks of Blueprint assignments, live events, and encouragement starting January 12, 2026—or, and this is the big news, apply to join our very first Blueprint cohort—10 of you will become a small group that receives direct feedback from me and from Jennie on flap copy and the three page Inside-Outline, and joins five group only live sessions and becomes a part of a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a blueprint that leads you to the book you want to start and finish. Applications to join this group open December 15, 2025 and will be evaluated on a first come, first-serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we’re going to close down the application. So get yours in early. Early-bird pricing for the small cohort is $1,000 until December 22 after that, the price goes up to $1200 (if there are even spaces left by then). I am so excited about this. So get your application in early. The regular Blueprint will run for supporters at the usual supporter pricing, but this other cohort is going to be really special details on how and where to apply are in the show notes, or they’re going to be pretty prominently displayed at AmWriting podcast.com

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it’s recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone, it’s Jennie Nash, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. Today, I want to talk about why most writers approach revision the wrong way, and how to use the Blueprint to do it right. Most people think revision starts with reading the whole manuscript, but the truth is I think that’s the last thing you should do. Before we dive into why I think that, and what I think you should do instead, I want to talk a little bit about what I call the “revision mindset.”

When you finish a manuscript, it’s really tempting to think, okay, I’ve got it, I did it, I’ll just polish it up a little and be done. But real revision requires openness—being open to seeing the strengths and the weaknesses and the changes that you need to make in the manuscript to take it from good to great. This can feel really vulnerable. I know for me, at this point, I worry that changing one thing is going to break everything else. You feel so close to the finish line that you don’t want to touch anything. But holding that tightly—that kind of clenching—is exactly what stops the revision process from working. It’s important to remember that revising is big-picture work. It’s not line editing. Revising is stepping back, seeing what’s really on the page, and being willing to reshape it. So a “revision mindset” is that openness and that willingness to look at it, to be real about what’s there and what you want it to be, and to be willing to do what it takes to get it there. So a good revision is going to start with that mindset. And if we start there, you can begin to see why doing a full manuscript read-through from page one, marching straight through all the way to the end, is going to lead to trouble. There are two particular things that happen if you approach revision in that way.

The first problem is when you go to read the book from page one chronologically all the way through—maybe you wrote it that way, maybe you didn’t—but in any case, if that’s how you approach revision, what tends to happen is that you fall into line editing instead of big-picture thinking. You begin to think, oh, this line is really great, or maybe I should fix that line, or maybe the flow here is a little off from this line to the other. You stay in the weeds, and you lose sight of structure and purpose and the big arc of your story or argument. The second problem with starting revision with a full manuscript read is when you ask somebody else to do that reading for you. Basically, what you’re doing is handing over your power to somebody else. You’re saying you look at this, tell me what you think, tell me how to fix it, tell me what’s wrong. And the problem with that is the tendency to get feedback and then just do everything they ask without thinking strategically through what you want to do or what you want your revision to accomplish. And a corollary of that problem is that usually when people are doing that full manuscript read for you, they’re just dumping all this stuff on you. They’re giving you this long litany of things that they see in the manuscript, or things that they think you should fix, and that list might include small things and big things and important things and not important things. It’s so easy to just get overwhelmed with the process.

As a book coach, that’s what I see all the time. People get into revision, they get overwhelmed, they freeze up, they don’t know what to do first. It’s so easy to feel defeated. And that’s the moment when so many writers stall out and shelve the project. They put it in a folder on their desktop—the proverbial drawer—and it’s just away, and they’re done, and they can’t face it. And then the idea of going back to that huge amount of work and trying to figure it out becomes too daunting, and they just don’t. So I don’t recommend starting your revision with the full manuscript read.

I have a different approach that I teach book coaches at Author Accelerator, and it’s called the “3D revision process.” It has three parts. The first is a process of inquiry. We use the Blueprint to ask key questions about the project. The second step is mapping everything out using the outline at the end of the Blueprint in a specific way. And the third step is strategizing. We look at that outline and we prioritize what changes need to be made using the stoplight strategy. I’m going to explain all these things in a minute, but the point is that this process gives you clarity, confidence, and a specific, actionable plan for approaching your revision—which is the dream.

Okay, so let’s walk through it. Step one is this process of inquiry, and using the Blueprint to walk us through that. In an earlier episode, which I’ll link to in the show notes, I talked about why I created the Blueprint and why I refer to it as a process of inquiry, rather than a story structure method. The process of inquiry allows the writer to look at the foundational aspects of what they’re writing and to look at the work from this big-picture angle that usually they skip. There are 14 questions no matter which genre you’re working on, but they all start with these really basic questions, like, why are you writing this book? What’s your point? Who’s your reader, and what do they want? And are you giving it to them?

Using the Blueprint to start a project, and answering these questions before you begin, is a really powerful way to think about what you want to do in the book, and a powerful way to get your vision clear. But when you have a finished manuscript and you go back to these questions, it’s a whole different ball game. It’s almost like a test. Can you answer these questions clearly and confidently based on what you know is there? Have you, in other words, put on the page the vision that you had in your head? So you go through the 14 questions honestly, answering them based on what you actually have, and it becomes this kind of assessment or challenge or test, like, did I do what I wanted to accomplish? And it’s really easy in those 14 questions to see if you didn’t. If you can’t confidently answer one of the questions, you know that that’s pointing toward a potential weakness in the book.

If I give the 14 Blueprint questions to somebody who has written a manuscript that they love and that is close to the vision that they had for it, they’re able to knock those questions out and answer them with such authority and power, and it’s just an amazing thing to see. And when they can’t, and they’re coming to the questions with that openness I talked about before, then it’s like, okay, look, we still don’t have this piece nailed down. We still have to figure out this part of the story or the argument that you’re making, so it becomes a first pass at what is really there and what strengths and weaknesses are on the page.

The second step in the “3D revision process” is to map out what you have, and we do this with the outline that is at the end of each of the Blueprints. If you’ve gone through the previous questions in the Blueprint, you’re looking at those foundational aspects, the structural elements of the story, all the things that hold up what you’ve written, and then the outline is, okay, here’s what I’ve actually written. If you’re at the start of a project, you want that outline to be no more than three pages. I’m very strict about this, and there’s a reason for that. It’s because we need to contain or constrain the creative process so that we can see what it is you’re wanting to make or to build. If someone goes on and on at that stage of the writing process, they’re not making good decisions and they’re not thinking about the big picture. But when you keep it to three pages, you’re forced to do that, and it’s a really awesome process.

With revision, I loosen those rules, and the reason is that for revision, I want this outline to be what I call an “as-is outline.” So this is not what you intend to write, or what you hope to write, or what you plan to write, which is what it is at the beginning of a project. Now it’s what is actually there. So the as-is outline is capturing what you actually wrote, not what you intended to write. So you use the manuscript, obviously, to get this information and to pin down an outline of what is actually there. And there’s still a constraint. I suggest that you keep this as-is outline to about 10 pages, and you absolutely need to follow the rules of the genre that I outline in the Blueprint. Each of the genres has a specific outline and a specific thing that we’re looking for in that outline, and I designed that to solve for the things that people most often get wrong in that genre.

I wrote a Substack post, which I’ll link to in the show notes, which explains what each of those things are, and I’ll link to that in the show notes. But you want to follow the rules of the outline, so that you make sure you’re not making the foundational problems of that genre. But then you have these 10 pages to capture what you’ve actually done on the page, and this as-is outline is where the big insights happen. When you step back and you look at this as-is outline, you can see where the momentum drops, where scenes or chapters repeat themselves, where your structure might be broken, where a subplot might take over, or, in nonfiction, where you veer off in some other direction. You can see where two memoir scenes are doing the same emotional work, or where a nonfiction chapter doesn’t drive towards the outcome that you’re leading your reader to. You can see so much in this outline, and that’s why this process is so powerful. The outline becomes a kind of X-ray of what you’ve actually written on the page.

And that leads us to step three of the “3D revision process” which is you’re going to analyze that outline. You’re going to bring some strategic thinking to what you have there. Each of the Blueprints has a checklist for their particular outline, and you want to go through those checklists and really ask yourself, have I done this? Have I done that? Have I done the other? The kinds of questions that checklist asks are things like, am I giving the reader what they want and expect? Does my outline include the essential elements of my genre or category? What’s missing, what’s out of order, what’s unclear, what’s unnecessary? So it’s strategic thinking about the material that you have created.

One of my favorite books about the creative process is Creativity, Inc., by Ed Catmull. It’s the story of the creation of Pixar, the company, and in that book, he talks about the Brain Trust, which is a very small group of writers who help each other to create the best possible stories. And they have this process in the Brain Trust that’s called giving good notes. And good notes are clear, they’re factual, they’re strategic, and that’s what you’re doing here for yourself. You’re giving yourself good notes. And if at this point you want to bring in a trusted partner to help you brainstorm and to help you look at your material and look at your notes and help you brainstorm solutions, this is a great time to bring in somebody to help you brainstorm and to look at your as-is outline and look at the notes that you’ve made for yourself, because instead of just handing the job over to somebody else, you’re saying, I have done this work of looking at my work in a strategic way. I know what I’ve done well, I know what my weaknesses are, and now I’m ready to solve those problems.

So a great critique partner or a trusted beta reader or a book coach…obviously, are great people to bring in at this stage of the process. And what’s awesome is you’re not asking them to sit down and spend 15 or 20 hours reading a whole manuscript and trying to figure out what you want or what you were trying to do, or how it all lands for them, and giving you this info dump of information. You’re asking them to look at your Blueprint, to look at your answers to the 14 questions, and your as-is outline, and your analysis of that outline. And what you’ll be doing, either on your own or in partnership, is prioritizing what needs to happen in the revision.

The tool that I teach coaches to do this is called the “stoplight strategy.” And what we’re doing is we’re trying to categorize the problems that we see in a manuscript by their severity. So red light problems are major structural issues, yellow light problems are medium-level issues, and green light problems are line-level edits. I designed the stoplight strategy because so many writers think that revision is about green light issues. So many of them start with line-level edits. And as I spoke about before, the tendency if you’re doing a full manuscript read is to fall into that rhythm of just seeing the green light things, or maybe a few yellow light things. But it’s very hard to see the red light things, which are the things that are going to bring your book down. They’re the fatal flaws, and most writers never find the time to actually look at those things.

So they might be things like, I’ve got to start this novel in a totally different place, or I have to chop off five chapters of my memoir, or I have to restructure my entire nonfiction argument in a different way to make it land. But if you’ve approached the process that I’m explaining with that openness, that revision mindset, and that curiosity about how can I make this better, and if you’ve gone through it in this systematic way, and you found some red light issues, they tend not to sting quite so much. They tend to feel manageable. Okay, I can fix this one big thing. And if I fix this one big thing, the next thing that I need to fix is probably going to be obvious, and then the next one is going to be obvious. So you’re leading yourself to a prioritization of what needs to happen in the revision, rather than looking at everything in the same way, meaning every little green light issue has the same weight as the yellow light issues and the same weight as the red light issues.

When we step out of doing the work chronologically, and we approach it in this more strategic way, we tend to focus on the red light issues. And again, they just tend not to feel quite so awful.

So the next step in the process is you take that as-is outline, and you turn it into a “what’s-next outline,” a map of what the book is going to become in revision. On that outline, you mark what gets cut, what gets moved, what needs to be added, what shifts are you going to make because of the big changes, and you actually make them in the outline, so that the outline reflects where you’re going with your revision.

And that’s how we close the gap between what you’ve written and what you want to write. That’s where you get closer to your vision of what you want this book to be. And that’s why this process is so powerful, because now you have a clear map of what you need to do in revision. You have a clear plan for how you’re going to go execute those things, so you’re not guessing and you’re not lost in overwhelm. You have this what’s-next outline that you’re going to go in and follow. And if you want to start at the beginning and make all the revisions in chronological order, you can. Or if you want to go in and fix the big red light issues first, you can. And you can use this what’s-next outline as a kind of external hard drive to hold all the changes that you want to make in your revision, so that you’re not holding them all in your head.

Doing the revision in this way might actually mean going in and working on, let’s say, chapter 10, 11, and 12, and not touching anything else. It might mean going in and working on chapters 13 and 27 and not touching anything else. It’s not necessarily a chronological process. You’re going to follow the what’s-next outline and do what needs to be done in the manuscript.

And once you do that, now is the time when a full manuscript read can make a lot of sense. Now you can go through from beginning to end knowing that you don’t have any big structural issues. There are no red light issues in this manuscript anymore. There are no yellow light issues. You don’t have to think about those or worry about those. You can go through and do the thing that most people do at the beginning of their revision process, which is polishing the prose and making everything sing and working on the line-by-line writing. You’ve already done the heavy lifting.

If you’re excited about using the Blueprint in your revision and you want to work through it with a community of other writers who are doing it too, we’d love to have you join our upcoming Blueprint Challenge. You’re going to go through the Blueprint step by step along with people who are revising their books or people who are starting from scratch. It’s the same 14 questions, and people will be working on fiction, they’ll be working on memoir, and they’ll be working on nonfiction. KJ is going to be leading the charge of this Blueprint, and she’s going to be doing some write-alongs and AMAs and different things to support people while you work through those Blueprint questions. And I’m going to be in there a few times as well.

This is the fourth time we’ve done the Blueprint Challenge at the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, and it gets better and better every time as more and more people do it. And you can find critique partners in there to help you with your Blueprint questions, maybe to look at your as-is outline, because they understand the process. They understand what’s going on. They understand what this is all about. And it’s just a really fun and powerful way to approach either a new book or the revision of a book that you want to work on.

You can check the show notes for details on how to sign up for the Blueprint Challenge. This challenge works if you have a new idea that you want to work through, or a new-ish idea. You can be a little bit into it, and the Blueprint process is still really effective. And it also, of course, works really well if you’re revising something, or maybe you’re stuck revising something, or overwhelmed by the revision process that you’re in.

You can start at the beginning of the Blueprint process and go through what I’ve just described here, and at the end of the challenge, be in a really great place to move forward with your project. We’d love to have you join us. So again, check the show notes for details.

We give everyone who joins the Blueprint Challenge a downloadable copy of the Blueprint book and a workbook to work through. But if you’re not able to do the challenge at this time and you want to go through this process yourself, you can just grab a copy of my Blueprint book at any bookstore and work through those 14 questions and your outline at the end. However you do it, we’re excited to support you on your way.

So until next time, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

An Invitation to the January Blueprint! Dec 14, 2025

It’s on again!

The Blueprint is one of our most popular offerings—Our 10 step plan to help you define the book you want to write before you write 100k words in search of it—but this time we’re going in fast and we’re knocking this puppy out in just 6 weeks. Starting January 12 and rolling though February 20, Jennie Nash and I (this is KJ) will lead you through the 14 foundational questions that every writer should ask of themselves and their book, whether you’re just getting started, are mid-draft or starting on on the whatever-number revision.

We’ll have weekly assignments and live events (Mondays 6:30 PM EST/3:30 PM PST, recorded so no one missed anything). We’ll have updated access to all the Blueprint resources. There will be chat and solidarity and all the energy that comes from being a part of a community all working together to reach the same goal.

Plus, every time we’ve done a Blueprint, somebody ends up with a book deal (listen here: An #AmWriting Success Story! ). That could be you.

I LOVE Blueprint season.

As Jennie says in the episode, the Blueprint comes from her realization that over and over again in her book coaching career (which is long and storied) she was seeing people come to her with the same mistakes—300-350 page manuscripts that lacked an inner structure, or an internal point, that meandered, were all plot and no heart or tried to offer instruction without ever conveying why it was so badly needed and what it would change for the reader.

Her secret is that she developed the Blueprint for revision (more about that HERE) and then realized that using it from the get-go works, too.

Look, I’m the first to tell you that the Blueprint doesn’t solve everything. But it helps… a lot. So get ready to Blueprint, whether you’re starting a new project or revising the current one (that’s where I’ll be)—and if you’re not already a supporter of the podcast (the only way to access the Blueprint) you should be.

Oh I am so IN, counting the days.

Also: no a******s.

If that sounds like you, here you go—the time to apply is now.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Write the Book Only You Can Write Dec 12, 2025

Rachael Herron’s latest: The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland, is, truly and in so many ways, the book only she can write. It pulls from every part of her life: identity, spirituality, a love of what’s magical in the world, her joy in crafting and her understanding of community and family. I, of course, wanted to know: how did you find the guts to put it all on the table?

We talked about vulnerability, the challenges of writing the book of your heart, and learning to play with what you fear. Rachael says, “I’m spoiled for any smaller kind of writing. I’m not sure I can go back.”

You’re gonna love it.

Links from the Pod:

The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland

Ink in Your Veins podcast

Rachel’s website: https://rachaelherron.com

The Jennifer Lynn Barnes “take my money” list.

The War of Art, Steven Pressfield#AmReading:

Careless People, Sarah Wynn-Williams

This Is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch, Tabitha Carvan

Transcript below:

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Multiple Speakers

KJ Dell’Antonia

Hey, listeners, this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. I am KJ Dell’Antonia, and today I am bringing to you an interview with Rachael Herron. I just finished talking to Rachael, and I really enjoyed this. We talked about vulnerability. We talked about the challenges of writing the book of your heart. We talked about what should show you where that book is, the idea that the fear is where you should play. It’s, it’s a really great interview, and I know that you are going to enjoy it.

Let me tell you a little bit about Rachael. She is the author of so many, so many books, thrillers and romances, and most recently, in the book that we are talking about, The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland. And I have to read you—Rachael’s going to describe this to you, but I got to read you the very short thing that basically made me say, take my money. And it went like this. A psychic tells Beatrix Holland that she’ll experience seven miracles and then she’ll die. No problem, though, Beatrix isn’t worried. She is above all things pragmatic. She vastly prefers a spreadsheet to a tall tale. Then the miracles start to happen.

It’s a really great book, and more importantly, it’s a big book. It is a book where Rachael is writing what comes from deep inside, and it is a book that only Rachael could write. And that is why I asked Rachael to join me today. I hope that you enjoy this interview, and before I release you to it, I just want to remind you that the place to go to talk more about writing big and playing big in your writing life is anywhere that we are: the AmWriting Podcast, Hashtag AmWriting, AmWritingPodcast.com. Find us on Substack. Find us by Googling. Grab those show notes—you should be getting them—and join us for all the different ways that we need to come together in a community to give each other the strength to do our very best and biggest work.

So I’m going to ask you to describe The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland to me. But also before I even do, I want to say how much I enjoyed it. And also so we have been spending most of our time on the AmWriting Podcast lately talking about writing—writing big and striving big and trying to do something different and bigger and better than what you have done before. We, I think as writers, we’re always trying to up our game, but there’s upping your game, and there’s reaching for the stars. And I felt like this book reached for the stars in a way that you maybe didn’t even set out to because to me, as someone who has read much of your work and followed your career and listened to a lot of the Ink in Your Veins Podcast and sort of just knows what’s going on with Rachael, this is the book that only you could write. So when I say this is your big book, I don’t mean, you know, that this is, is going to be a—I’m sorry—I don’t actually mean that 200 years from now, people will be passing this around.

Rachael Herron

Exactly.

KJ Dell’Antonia

What I mean is that this is you. This is and it’s you. All of your books are you, but this was really you in a way that felt downright magical to me. And it’s a magical book. So can you tell us a little bit about Beatrix Holland? And I will also say that even before I read it that you had me at the premise. So give us that.

Rachael Herron

Well, I don’t know how to talk about it now that you’ve talked me up so well. But thank you. Thank you for, you know, being honestly an ideal reader for this book. The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland is about a woman who is pragmatic and sensible and doesn’t believe in, you know, mumbo jumbo, not really worried about that kind of thing. But she is told by a psychic that she will experience seven miracles and then she will die and whatever, that’s not a big deal. It doesn’t bother her, because none of it is true. She doesn’t believe it. And then, me… miracles start to occur; things that even she cannot say are not miracles. And so therefore, maybe, what about that death thing that’s going to be preying on her mind?

KJ Dell’Antonia

So on top of that…

Rachael Herron

Who likes what the book is about…

KJ Dell’Antonia

We’re on an island, and there’s family secrets being revealed. And there are amazing family secrets that I think many of us would, I mean, they’re kind of awful, and I’ve talked to some people, and some people would be thrilled by them, and some wouldn’t, but yeah, just it just kind of keeps giving and giving and giving. And it’s funny because you say I’m the ideal reader, and actually, I don’t know that I necessarily would be…

Rachael Herron

Oh, that’s even better…

KJ Dell’Antonia

Except, if somebody else had written this, I would not be the ideal reader. And I don’t think that’s because I know you. I think it’s because of the way that you wrote that. And when what I when I say, I wouldn’t be the ideal reader, I am getting a little tired of books that are giving me certain specific elements that are very trendy right now and that people feel obliged to give me. And you know you have, certainly, you’ve got LGBTQ characters in this, but also you have LGBTQ characters in your life. You are yourself such a character.

Rachael Herron

As my wife is one of them over in the other room.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And this isn’t me saying I will only read books about queer people by queer authors. No, no, no. It’s that these are the thing, the elements of this book that sort of fall into that, that are just there, because that’s your life and what you see…

Rachael Herron

Right. Right.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And it just is perfectly natural. And of course, you have a lot of—and it’s in the sort of the same way that, of course, there’s a lot of witchiness and spirituality, because it’s part, it’s part of you and part of who you are. So it’s, it’s, it reads as authentic.

Rachael Herron

Oh, that’s such a, that’s such a—that’s such a huge compliment. I wrote this book to please myself.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s what… that’s my next question. Don’t make me. Don’t make me interrupt you. What? That was my question. What was your intention? What did you set out to do with this book?

Rachael Herron

I—so this is my sixth genre, and I’ve been writing for—I’ve been published for 15 years, and this is my 26 or 27th book. I’ve lost, I can’t remember, maybe more. I have a list somewhere. And I have always thought about, you know, the market and what people want to read and what people want to hear, as you know, as you know this, you’ve been, you’ve been doing the same thing a long time.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And there’s nothing wrong with that.

Rachael Herron

There’s nothing wrong with writing tree, market around market, exactly. But, but in this case, I wanted to write a book, and I wanted to have fun, and, and, and to be honest, I talk about this regularly is that I was going to self-publish it. I didn’t even want to deal with my agent coming back and saying, oh, you should edit it this way. Or, you know that this or that editor doesn’t want it, or they wanted to change in some way. I wanted to write a—I wanted to write a series of about found family, and I did, I did the Jennifer Lynn Barnes thing, the adored Taylor, where I just, I just made the list of everything I love the most. You know, I love witch stuff. I love practical magic. I love sisters. I love twins separated at birth. Why wouldn’t I? I love grumpy, grumpy, older women and fireflies and all of the things that I love the most. And I and I wrote that book, and it was one of the fastest books I’ve ever written, and not because I was rushing, just because it came easily. I was following my heart and following my gut, and I was also following my tarot cards. When I would get stuck, I would just pull a tarot card and see what it did with my subconscious and moved me forward, and I it was just play. And then I revised it quickly. I hired my favorite editor, edited it, got it copy edited, and then I decided, oh gosh, I don’t think I want to do a whole series, and I’m not sure if I want to self-publish, because that’s a lot of work, so I’ll just let my agent have it and to see if she could sell it. And she said, okay, I’ll take a look at it and see if I could sell it. And then it sold at auction because it was, I don’t… there’s no because there it was just no surprise. There’s no because there’s no because there’s never a because in publishing. You can also write the book of your heart.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, and then this—the rest of the story wouldn’t fall that way and it would never sell that way…

Rachael Herron

Exactly. So it happened to go this way. And of course, a lot of it is a lot of it is luck. Cozy, cozy, queer fantasy is, you know, on an upswing right now, but that wasn’t, you know, a couple years ago. It took a couple years for it to come out.

KJ Dell’Antonia

What do you love most? Yeah, what do you love most about this book and the experience?

Rachael Herron

The thing I love most about the whole experience is that it has spoiled me for any other kind of writing; I think now, which may be a good or a bad thing. Ask me in a few years. But I kind of refuse now to write a book that I don’t desperately want to write, that I can’t stop thinking of. Because I’ve written a lot of books that I love, but they were, you know, what they were, they were my job. They were the book I sold. And now I will write the book that I sold. Now I will do, do what the contract says. And I don’t want to do that anymore. I just want to write the books that grab me and fascinate me and keep me in their thrall and what that means is that I have to, you know, focus on other ways to bring in money and to support. And really, I’m now, I’m supporting this writing passion with things like teaching and with, you know, you know, old backlist books. But I’m not, I’m not sure if I can go back. I don’t want to, I don’t want to be a work a day writer, writing to a contract that I don’t maybe love as much as other contracts I’ve had, right?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah.

Rachael Herron

So, yeah, it’s spoiled me a little bit that way.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So are there other ways that this book feels bigger than things that you have written before? And this is again; we’re not denigrating our old work. We’re not…

Rachael Herron

No, of course not. Of course not. I think that every—for me, it’s always been a goal that for every book that I write, it needs to be me playing bigger. It needs to be me playing truer, more, more free. And in this book, it’s only recently come up in my in my consciousness that I think that I needed to leave the United States and move around the world to New Zealand. And one of the reasons we left the states was because we were scared of the way LGBTQ rights are, are trending. There’s 867 pieces of legislation that are anti LGBTQ on the dockets right now in the United States, and that’s, that’s up by like 700% in the last four years, and it’s and it’s terrifying. But it I didn’t strike me until recently that this is my first novel that has a queer love story. It’s not a romance, but there’s a queer, queer love story inside it. And I finally, perhaps, felt safe enough to do that, you know, because it and when I came into the industry, I came in writing straight romances, because that’s what would sell. And when I would ask to write other things that was turned down by traditional publishing because they thought it wouldn’t sell. And then, you know, obviously self-publishers came along and said, oh, there is a market. Wow, look who wants to read these books. But, and so it was me kind of exposing myself in that way, and also me exposing myself in in the way that Beatrix does is that I always, I also just want to believe in magic. I want to believe I want to believe in things out there that I can’t explain, that are bigger than me, that I don’t actually need a name for or to understand. Because if I could understand something that is that big, something that is powering the universes, I can’t be expected to understand that. But can I, can I engage with it? Can I play with it in the in the exact same way that that Beatrix does? I think the answer is yes. And I did. When I would pull the tarot cards to help me write the next chapter if I got stuck, it was an actual process of engaging with a larger thing, saying, I don’t know how to write this book. Help me write this book. Asking for help in writing this book from, from whatever is out there. I don’t have, I don’t have big ideas about it, but yeah. So that was, that was, it was scary, and maybe that’s why I originally wanted to self-publish it, because then it, it felt like I could keep total control.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Sure.

Rachael Herron

If I did that,

KJ Dell’Antonia

Of course, you could keep anyone who wouldn’t like it from reading it then.

Multiple Speakers

[Both laughing]

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, okay, so maybe not so much. But no, I get it. It must have felt…

Rachael Herron

Yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Less vulnerable. So I was going to ask you next, what was hard about it. And I guess that’s, is that what was hard? But maybe something else was.

Rachael Herron

Let’s see, what was that? So that was hard, being that honest and vulnerable. And you know how when we write our novels, the thing that we want to do is be as truthful as possible, even though we’re just making up a pack of lies. It’s it feels more true often than even memoir can when we’re when we’re doing this. What else felt hard? Not much felt hard about this book. And I have had books that I have struggled with like I am wrestling muddy alligators for decades at a time. It feels like those that’s what those that’s what those books feel like. And there’s nothing wrong with those books. They were just; you know where I was at the moment. But this book, I it’s one of those gift books. It just, I must have struggled, and I do not remember. I honestly do not remember struggling.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Well… I wish for…

Rachael Herron

I just remember it being joy.

KJ Dell’Antonia

…all of us. I wish that. I wish that journey for all of us. Oh. Yeah, yeah…

Rachael Herron

As usual, I struggle whenever I get copy edits back. When I get copy edits back, I realize I don’t know how to write a sentence.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So if any of our listeners are sort of trying to find within themselves the freedom to write what they really want to write, and maybe can’t even figure out what the heck that would be, what would you say to them…asking for a friend?

Rachael Herron

I would encourage them to do one of those “ID lists”, to sit down and write a list of the thing that if you saw that something about it was on the box of the of the video cassette at the video rental store, because that’s how old I am, if you saw that listed on there, would you pick it up and rent the movie? Write down all of the things that you love the most and then actually use it as an exercise in creativity within constraints. How many of those things can you actually shove in there? Can you get them? Can you get them all in there? The other thing I like to ask myself when this question comes up is, if I am alone—well, it doesn’t actually matter if I’m alone or not—but if I, if I walk into the bookstore, any bookstore, and and I reject any “shoulds,” you know, should I look for that cookbook I was thinking about, or should I look for that new nonfiction I heard about on the podcast, if I’m if I’m released of all shoulds, where will I want to—and say somebody tells me you can only look at one section of the store today. What is the section of the store that I will go stand in front of and pull books off the shelf and look at? And perhaps that is a clue as to where you should be writing.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And how about freeing yourself up to actually do it. We can’t all move to New Zealand, Rachael.

Rachael Herron

[Laughing] Freeing yourself up do you mean to write the book, to write that book?

KJ Dell’Antonia

To write that book. I don’t. Yeah, most of my listeners—well, most of our listeners aren’t you know, we tend to be a podcast for professionals or people that are playing professional so, you know, these aren’t people who can’t put their butt in the chair, but to be vulnerable and admit that you want to go bigger and then do it. That’s a different question. Got any advice for that?

Rachael Herron

I do like to think of Steven Pressfield’s advice from his book The War of Art, where he talks about resistance with the capital R. And the place where you feel the most resistance, that’s your that’s your compass that is pointing north to what you what, what you are meant to do. And a lot of times when we think about these bigger stories that we may want to write someday, the someday, right when I get there, I’ll write it someday, that you’ve already got this compass pointing you there, and it is terrifying. And the fear of how can I do that now is maybe the thing that says that you do not need to put aside the fourth book in the series that you’re writing that you need to finish before you write this next series. You can do that. But maybe listening to that resistance, listening to that fear, and dedicating 15 minutes, three times a week, to playing with the idea of this book. If you were to start to write it anytime in the future, you can, you can at least be courting it and flirting with it, making it know that you are going to be available to write that, that book of your heart, because everybody, every we all need that. We all need that. We also need to pay the bills and do the professional writing and do all that too.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, yeah.

Rachael Herron

But…

KJ Dell’Antonia

We got to; we got to try to do the biggest things we can. All right. Well, that’s a great place to lead into my next question, which is, what have you read recently where you really thought the writer was playing big?

Rachael Herron

Can I give you two?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Of course!

Rachael Herron

Okay, the first one, and strangely, these are both nonfiction. So make of that what you will, Careless People: A Cautionary Tale of Power, Greed, and Lost Idealism by Sarah Wynn-Williams, who is a QE. Have you heard of this one?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh yeah. This is the…

Rachael Herron

Oh yeah, the Facebook book.

KJ Dell’Antonia

The Facebook book. We moved fast, and we did indeed break things.

Rachael Herron

We did move fast. We broke things. And Sarah has a uniquely Kiwi sense when she’s looking at them, because she goes in and she’s really watching it all happen. And I don’t care about Facebook. I don’t actually engage with all of the stuff that said about it. And this book is written basically it felt like a thriller. It was—I couldn’t put it down. And she was fearless, the things that she said. No wonder Zuckerberg wanted to silence it. He looks like a moron. And she was absolutely fearless. And it was one of those schadenfreudy, why am I reading this? Why can’t I put this down? But I can’t put it down. And I think it was because of her bravery.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah.

Rachael Herron

So I really enjoyed it for that. And then the other one I want to tell you about is kind of on the flip side. And you may not have heard about this one. It’s called This Is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch

KJ Dell’Antonia

Not only have I heard about this one, it’s entirely possible that I sent it to you.

Rachael Herron

Really?!

KJ Dell’Antonia

I love this book! All right, go on. Go on.

Rachael Herron

…The Joy of Loving Something--Anything--Like Your Life Depends On It, by Tabitha Carvan. Oh, my god, isn’t it brilliant? She writes about how, yes, she does love Benedict Cumberbatch, who I’d really never considered very much in my life

KJ Dell’Antonia

No, I couldn’t pick him out of a lineup of youthful-ish…

Rachael Herron

Yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

British-ish…

Rachael Herron

Yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Actor-ish,

Rachael Herron

And she loves him, loves him, loves him, no, no joke, loves him. And the whole book is about recovering from any shame around loving the thing that you were put on this earth to freaking love with your whole heart, no matter what anybody says. And I really think the Benedict Cumberbatch is a really great thing to tie this whole book in.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It had to be something like that, because if it was like knitting, I mean,

Rachael Herron

Right, exactly.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Okay, that’s fine, honey, you can love your knitting. And you know it also is…

Rachael Herron

Exactly,

KJ Dell’Antonia

You know, it also is…

Rachael Herron

This is not a book about yogurt. Who cares, you know. But Benedict Cumberbatch is funny to say. He’s actually kind of funny to look at when you do look at him, when you do look him up. And it’s so evocative, and it is, and it is something that people would snicker at.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah.

Rachael Herron

Right? People would snicker.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Still even… yeah, it’s like, she snickers it herself. But also she’s like, okay, why? Why is that, you know? Why would it be? What if I were super obsessed with the stats of some obscure ball—baseball player, no one would mock that. If I wanted to watch every football game played by, you know…

Rachael Herron

That blew my mind when she said that, of course, of course. So, and she goes deep. She’s again, she’s so brave. She plays big. She goes into what it means. How does it like? How does it affect her husband? What does she think about how it affects her husband? Like she goes all of the places. I’m so, I bet you did tell me about it, and I’m so glad that you did.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I love, I love. I keep extra copies to force people to read it. I tie people up in like, you know parts of my house and force them… no. I don’t really do that.

Rachael Herron

[Laughing] I love that. But, and what are those all have in common? I think that what are, the both those books have in common? Is these women who, who, at any point, anybody in the whole world could have told them that’s not really a good idea to write.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, no, that’s exactly right.

Rachael Herron

And it would’ve been true.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah. It would have been true. It would have been excellent advice.

Rachael Herron

Excellent advice not to write that book.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Really, you should not admit that you love Benedict. Or really, I mean, you’re never going to work in this town again, man.

Rachael Herron

You’re never going to work in this town again. And the whole, during the whole book of Careless People, she’s talking about being inside, she is inside the beast that is doing the damage. And that’s and that’s brave too. And I don’t think Seven Miracles is as brave as those books, but there was, but there was bravery and resistance around moving, moving toward, really putting yourself on display.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Run towards the fear.

Rachael Herron

And that’s what we writers do.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That’s our theme.

Rachael Herron

Yeah, run towards the fear. Even if you can only give it 15 minutes a day or so, three times a week, that’s enough. That’s good enough to tell your bravery. It should come back more.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yes.

Rachael Herron

Scooch, door bravery, little scooches.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Edge towards the fear. Tip toe.

Rachael Herron

Oh, that’s beautiful. I love that you’re doing this series.

KJ Dell’Antonia

We love it too. So, yeah, it’s going great. Well again, thank you. I was really excited to talk to you about this book. I was really excited to read this book. I enjoyed the heck out of it, and I think, listeners, that you would too. You should absolutely check it out as well as all the rest of Rachael’s work. Links of course, as always, in the show notes, and follow Rachael in all the places. Although, to me, the best thing to do is to go and listen to the Ink in Your Veins Podcast. Because obviously, people, you’re a podcast listener, you wouldn’t be here. Where do you most like to be followed, Rachael?

Rachael Herron

At Ink in Your Veins or on Rachaelherron.com/write, if you are a writer and want to get on the on the writing encouragement list. But I just want to thank you for doing this amazing show and for having me. I feel very, very honored to be here.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Well, thank—thank you. All right. And as we say in every episode, until next week, kids, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Thanksgiving Gratitude Nov 28, 2025

Hi all! In honor of Thanksgiving, we decided to share what we’re doing to get MORE of what we’re grateful for in our writing lives—as in, try not just to give a nod to gratitude but actually increase the things we do to feel it. Enjoy!

Are you staring down a holiday shopping list with a haunted look in your eyes? My great big guide to holiday under-the-radar book-giving perfection can help. Maybe you think not everyone in your life wants a book, but honestly, they are just wrong. I’ve got a book on my list for the therapy-speak-loving teen who’s glued to TikTok, a book for your mom whose book club just forced her to read Emily Henry and just wants a protagonist with a little seasoning. One for your dad, who thinks TV hasn’t been the same since The X-Files. And a few for your book-loving bestie, who’s read everything already, and all you have to do to get the list to drop right into your phone for your shopping pleasure is join my newsletter, Hashtag AmReading, at kjda.substack.com—link in the show notes and pretty much anywhere where you can find me, which is easy.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it’s recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Hey kids, it’s KJ, and this is theHashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters.

Jess Lahey

I’m Jess Lahey. I am the author ofThe Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The New York Times and The Washington Post and The Atlantic.

Sarina Bowen

And I’m Sarina Bowen. My newest novel is calledThrown for a Loop, and you can find it at bookstores everywhere.

Jennie Nash

And I’m Jennie Nash. I’m the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And I’m the author of the Blueprintbooks that help you get your book out of your head and onto your page. And today, the four of us have gathered to talk about gratitude. It’s the week of Thanksgiving, and we’ve been thinking about the things that we’re grateful for in our writing life, and how we want to celebrate that and amplify that. So we thought we’d share that all with you today. KJ, do you want to start by talking about what you’re grateful for?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, I actually managed to give this some thoughts. Since we did, we did talk about it. And I should say we kind of got the idea from Laura Vanderkam’s newsletter, which is really great, and you should subscribe. She was just talking about how, you know, it’s one thing to be grateful for things like, “Whoo, I’m grateful that I live in such a beautiful place,” but it’s another thing to say, “And because I’m grateful that I live in such a beautiful place, this week I will make a point of going for a walk, you know, tonight with my dog, in a place that I love,” or something along that. Her point was: come up with something and then actually do something to amplify that for yourself. So you’re not just sitting around, you know, writing a gratitude journal. You’re actually trying to do something about it. So having announced that I am totally prepared for this—I’m not really, but I kind of am. Okay. So one of the things that I am grateful for this year, a little weirdly, is AI, and it is not for the reasons anyone might think. I’m primarily grateful—I’m grateful that the spurt of AI in everything that I read, from Goodreads book reviews to things in my inbox to, I’m sorry, actual articles in actual newspapers… it’s become so recognizable. The stuff that is written, the pattern, the three examples, the particular words that are invariably used. Oh, somebody threw one out the other night—oh, in the real estate world, if it says something is “nestled between two things,” that’s AI. Anyway, that made me realize that the last thing I want is something else to do any of this for me. I just don’t. I just, you know, sometimes you sit around going, “Oh, somebody just write this book for me—” you know what? No. No. Because I don’t want my book to be nestled between a rock and a hard place or whatever. So, so no. So what I’m doing to sort of bring that home for myself is I’m actually trying to be more present, in particular within the AmWriting—the AmWriting universe. So I’ve been doing something that I’m calling Hashtag AmWriting ‘Almost’ Every Day. It’s really nowhere close to every day. Don’t worry about getting your inbox full. But I am—you know, that’s actually me. If I have time and something to say, or something to whine, or some write-alongs to share, or an idea, then I’m going to put that out there for y’all. And hopefully you’re going to comment back, and you probably won’t bother to use AI to do that, because that would be really silly. So that’s a thing I’m doing, and a thing that I’m grateful that I’ve suddenly come to the realization of.

Jess Lahey

What’s funny, KJ, is that I can absolutely tell when you’re really enjoying writing, because it—it just comes through, as it does with most people. But it’s been… your newsletters have been really fun, and you’re really in it. And I love reading them. I absolutely love reading them.

Jennie Nash

It gets a little sassy.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Thanks!

Jess Lahey

She does. She does get a little sassy.

Jennie Nash

I love it.

Jess Lahey

Yep, the Shirley Jackson comes out in her, and it’s really fun. I like that a lot.

Jennie Nash

Jess, do you want to go next?

Jess Lahey

Yeah. Sure. So newsletters have come to mean a lot to me. I have a lot of drafts sitting there, some of which I don’t think—I may never publish. But I’m really, really grateful that writing has, for my entire life, been the way that I process what I’m thinking about. I do it a lot by talking, but when I’m alone in the woods, like I am right now in Vermont, writing is how I figure things out, and I’m so grateful for that, because, you know, as I wrote about in my newsletter, I’m dealing with breast cancer, and I’m about to have surgery, and some of that stuff is really, really scary. And how I think about it, and how I manage it, is through writing about it. And I’m just—I’ve never been so grateful to have, even if it never goes out into the world, a place to write about that stuff. And, and, yeah, I’m so grateful for the words. Absolutely.

Jennie Nash

That’s so beautiful, that in the scariest, most difficult time, it’s the most natural thing that you turn to.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, I think there are some people who pour themselves out in watercolors, or some people—whatever. The words, man, they’re the best.

Jennie Nash

Very cool. Sarina, what about you?

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, well, as always, my gratitude runs toward the granular and the practical. I guess I can’t ever get away from that. So I am grateful to deadlines. Last month, I had a really difficult deadline. I had to scramble and set everything else aside and keep myself from panicking. And I did it. I actually—I turned it in, and then I immediately went on a book tour for a different book. So that was a difficult experience and a difficult month, and I’m not used to quite so much deadline pressure. But the wonderful thing is, is that I have these deadlines because of the work that I have placed with publishers, and I wouldn’t want to change a single thing about that. So even if I need to get a little better about my timing, I recognize that—even in the darkest day—that it’s a gift to have this problem. And then I’m also grateful for coffee shops, because that has been a place for me to work this year. And I never did this before. I was one of those people who had to be at home, in a room all by myself, in the quiet, writing. And suddenly that became really difficult for me. The quiet was too much quiet. There was too much doom scroll, there was too much self-reflection. And it really started the day after the election, actually. Like, I sort of ordered KJ to meet me out at a coffee shop because I needed to be where other people were. And it was really grounding—like, there we were, and the barista is a familiar face, and everything was fine inside that shop, you know, which was, in itself, a little bubble of privilege. But, but just being out in the world, seeing the rest of the world keep chugging, has really focused me. And I’ve spent a lot of time in a lot of different coffee shop and library settings in the intervening couple of months—and, well, almost a year now—and it’s felt fantastic. So I am excited that there are places where I’m allowed to go pay way too much for a cup of coffee and then sit there for two hours, and I will continue to do it.

Jess Lahey

Can I add a layer to the Sarina—to the Sarina stuff? Because I got to go to, as some of the other people talking today did, got to go to one of Sarina’s events. And, you know, we love Sarina, and we just rave about Sarina, and I think she’s a genius, and I think her writing is wonderful. But I was in a room of people who knew her work. Like, at one point, someone asked about whether or not she was going to be writing more in, like, The Company Series, which is one of the series she started to write. And there are a couple books—in that one. And then when she’s like, “Oh, I don’t—I think the time for that is over,” and people were like, “Awww,” and they were sad, and they knew characters really well. There was a die-hard fan of one of her books—I think it was Stay. And I just—I’m so grateful to be able to go to those events and see that other people love Sarina as much and respect Sarina’s work as much as I do. And my whole family was there. So my kid, who’s been hearing about, you know, my friend who wrote—writes “kiss me” books, he was like, “Man, people are into her books.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I told you. I’ve been trying to tell you.” And it was great. It was really fun to see people that into it.

Sarina Bowen

Well, the thing is that romance readers really are special. I’m not saying there aren’t—there aren’t fandoms in other genres as well. But it’s something about a romance novel involves characters that aren’t afraid to say how they feel, and that is how romance readers are about the books. They are not afraid to say what they feel, and they are there for all the feelings in the first place. And it is really a great spot to be. So for every writer who ever looked down at the romance section of the bookstore, I got news for you. It’s really nice over there.

Jess Lahey

It’s great. The people were so great.

Jennie Nash

And we have gratitude for the romance—the romance readers too.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Jennie Nash

I love all of your—your gratitude’s. Mine is—I guess I would say that I am grateful for having the identity of a writer as a thing that I take with me wherever I go. And what I mean by that is I have been traveling to see family, and there were airplane troubles, lots of different airplane troubles, actually, on this particular trip, and lots of delays, overnight delays, sitting in airports for long periods of time, all of that, and I am never sad about those things. I’m almost never at a total loss. Like, you tell me that I have to spend six hours at the San Francisco airport, and I’m fine, because I can fill the time—not just, not just fill it like, “Oh, I can get through this,” but I can actually have really productive, useful, awesome time for six hours in the San Francisco airport. And if I have to spend a night at a terrible airport hotel, and, you know, just all the things—and I was so grateful when I thought about it in that way, that here’s a thing that I can take with me wherever I go, that all I need is something to write on. Could be my phone. It could be a piece of airport hotel notepad and paper. It could even be a torn-out page of a magazine that I bought at the airport. And I—I can be somebody. I can be somebody doing something that I find interesting and good and useful. And I just am so grateful for that. What an amazing thing to be. And obviously holiday travel is a special kind of thing, but just the thought that—that that comes with me, no matter where I go or what I do or what happens in my life—I have that, and I’m very grateful for that. So I don’t know, KJ, in terms of how am I going to bring that forward or exercise it or do it? I guess—I guess I’ve got to hope for smoother travels.

KJ Dell’Antonia

You should just get stuck in more airports, but you don’t want to get stuck in more airports? I feel like that should be your goal now.

Jennie Nash

I guess if you take it to a very granular, practical level, like Sarina does—always have a notebook with you, man. That’s what I got to say, and a working writing implement. It saves the day.

Jess Lahey

And then you text the word “sticker” to the rest of us, and we know, “Oh, man, those travel stickers—those are worth double stickers.” We always say that travel stickers are double stickers.

Jennie Nash

It’s so true. It’s so true. Well, we just wanted to pop in here today to share this gratitude episode with you all and to give you some things to think about, about your writing life and your writing practice. And we hope that everyone is having a day filled with gratitude. KJ, do you want to say other things?

KJ Dell’Antonia

I wanted to say that I think we’re all grateful for the way this community is slowly but steadily growing. I’ve been doing Write-Alongs with a bunch of people lately. We’ve been seeing people in the actual Substack chat, which, if you…

Jess Lahey

The chat is fun.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Use Substack chat, that’s great. And you know—you know what it is, and if you don’t, that’s fine. You can totally hit the same results by talking to us in the comments, which is the same as comments on anything. I just—I just really like sort of seeing the same people and faces pop up over and over again, and feeling the same kind of “less alone” about this that I used to feel back in the early days of blogging. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I have pretty much, you know—I’ll put a thing on Instagram, and then I’m out of there because, again, it’s—there’s, there’s so much slop now. I’m not really doing a lot of other things. But I am here, and there are other people here, and I think that’s so fun.

Jennie Nash

It’s really fun. And we will continue to be here with—with lots of offerings, from Nerd Corner episodes to Write Big episodes to KJ Writing Along episodes, and we’re in the chat to help and answer questions, and we have other things up our sleeves too. So keep tuning in.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah. All right.

Jess Lahey

All right, everyone until next time around, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

TheHashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 475 Publishing Nerd Corner: How Audiobooks are Made Nov 14, 2025

Jess here. Sarina and I discuss audiobook narration this week and explain how narrators get hired, paid, and dish some inside baseball on audiobook production.

Transcript Below!

Your subscription = good podcast karma. Sign up now to support the Podcast!

SPONSORSHIP MESSAGE

Hey, listeners, did you know that we review first pages sent in by supporters every month on the pod? It’s just one more reason you should be supporting Hashtag AmWriting, which is always free for listeners and ad free too. Please note that we will never pitch you the latest in writer supplements or comfy clothes for lap-topping. The good news is we’re open for First Page submissions right now. If you’ve got a work in progress and you’d like to submit the first page for consideration for a Booklabs First Pages episode, just hit the support button in the show notes and you’ll get an email telling you all the details. Want to hear a Booklabs episode. Current ones are for supporters only but roll your pod player back to September 2024 and there they’ll be.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Jess Lahey

Hey, welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. I’m your host, Jess Lahey, and this is the podcast about getting all the words done, writing all the things, writing, short things, long things, proposals, queries, poetry, all the things. But today, Jess and Sarina are bringing you the book nerdery stuff, the best stuff. This is The Publishing Nerd Corner. I love this new segment. I’m super excited about it, but first, my name is Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. You can find my journalism out there various places, including The New York Times. And you can find my newsletter at jesslahey.substack.com.

Sarina Bowen

And I’m Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels. My new one is called Thrown for a Loop, and it drops on November 4, and it also will be published that same day as an audio book.

Jess Lahey

Whoo so...

Sarina Bowen

And that is what...

Jess Lahey

Yeah, we’re going to talk about audiobooks today, because Sarina knows so much about this—because she has to, like, hire her own narrator sometimes and stuff like that. All I know is, I narrated my own audiobook, and it was super fun, and I loved it. But we want to talk about all the aspects of how audiobooks work—all of it. There’s lots of fun stuff to talk about. Where would you like to start, Sarina?

Sarina Bowen

That is a good question. So, most of the time, if you are selling your book to a big publisher, audio rights will be included in your contract, and your publisher is therefore responsible for making the audiobook. You might be consulted about the choice of narrators, and that audio will magically appear finished on your publication date. But if you are a self-published author, then the existence or not of your audiobook is completely under your control. Audio has been the shining star of publishing for the last decade in that it is the growth story. I’m not sure how that has worked the last couple of years, but audio was one of the only areas of traditional publishing that demonstrated double-digit growth for much of the last decade. A lot of that has to do with the popularity and availability of streaming as a way that people listen to these books. Obviously, the technology shift made a huge difference, but so did things like cellular networks that work well and buffer easily. So...

Jess Lahey

Can I add one little, tiny thing? There’s been another reason that I think that audio has done so well, and that’s the acceptance within the education world—thanks to researchers like, for example, Dan Willingham and other people who study the brain and how we process and learn—that audiobooks are reading. From a processing perspective, from a learning perspective, listening to audiobooks is reading, and anyone who is telling you otherwise is not looking at the science. And so, this has been an incredible way—when you look at kids, for example, neurodivergent kids, dyslexic kids, kids who need another way to take in the information. It used to be that audio was like, “Oh no, that’s cheating,” and it is absolutely not cheating. So, I think that acceptance within the education world has been so great. And, you know, yes, it is a small part of the growth, but I do want to put that plug in there.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. So, the way that, traditionally, audiobooks have been made is that a narrator goes into a booth and reads the book after having prepped it a bit in terms of maybe reading the whole book, maybe reading parts of the book, understanding what they’re going to bring to the table. If it’s fiction, then they’ll be looking to see what are the major voices, because audio narrators change their delivery to indicate voices. And one thing that’s interesting about the trend where we are in audio right now is that it’s very trendy for a nonfiction author to read their own work if they’re comfortable with it. That is widely done in nonfiction.

Jess Lahey

And it was one of my favorite parts of my process. And I have to say, nothing affected me more on an emotional level. I cried at the end of narrating both books. I had to pause at the very end—at the last couple, the last paragraph. It was such a moving experience for me to narrate my own book. And I have to say, it wasn’t a slam dunk that they were going to let me do that. I, you know, I worked really hard to be able to do that, because for some people, that’s just not their bag—it’s not something that comes naturally to them. But it was, for me anyway, my favorite part of the process.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so if you had written a novel, though, we wouldn’t be—

Jess Lahey

No.Sarina Bowen—having that same conversation.Jess Lahey

I’m not an actor. I don’t have the chops for that.Sarina Bowen

Well, a lot of authors of novels don’t understand this. It’s not that they don’t understand how their own book should sound and be delivered—it’s that what they don’t understand is that the way that novel audio sounds in 2025 is a specific trend in the way that readers want their books delivered. The books are very much acted. It wasn’t always this way. There were times when audio really sounded more like somebody just reading—and that’s okay. Like, there’s lots of room for style in terms of the way that audio fiction works. But right now, the trend in audio fiction is very much a performance. And one way that you can see this—and it continues to expand as a trend—is the trend toward something called duet audio, which means, for example, in romance, if there’s a male hero and a female heroine—and the way that most of my books work is that if the chapter is in the POV of a man, then the male narrator reads it. But of course, when he comes to a line of dialogue delivered in the heroine’s voice, he softens his tone a bit to indicate that she’s speaking, but he reads the whole chapter.Jess Lahey

They’re always amazing—that’s amazing to me when readers can do that. I mean, Davina Porter is the one that comes to mind—like, in the Outlander books, when she switches whose voice she’s reading. She switches whose voice—it’s down to the accent—and you don’t for a second think, “Oh, that’s the same person reading all of this.” And some of the narrators you use, Sarina, in your books—the same thing. My brain absolutely believes that I’m hearing a female voice versus a male voice. It’s a really incredible talent.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. In fact, if this is of interest to you, there is a book called Thank You for Listening by Julia Whelan.

Jess LaheyIt’s so good!

Sarina BowenWho is one of the few who’s been very successful as both an author and a narrator, and her book is a little bit of inside baseball about narrators. And it’s a delight.

Jess LaheyIt’s fun. It’s really fun.

Sarina BowenOkay, so what I was just describing, though—where he reads a chapter and then she reads a chapter—we refer to that as dual narration (D-U-A-L). But there’s a new trend called duet, whereby in the same book, he would read the chapter, but if there was a line of dialogue from a woman, the female narrator would read that line.

Jess LaheyWhich is more similar to me in terms of how it feels with, like, ensemble narration. Like, for example, Lincoln in the Bardo had a full cast of many characters, and every part was someone different, and those actors would chime in with their parts. So, same—similar idea.

Sarina BowenWell, sometimes, sometimes a “full cast” audiobook just means that there are lots of very short chapters or segments. But to have every single line of dialogue cut in is really different than just saying a book has a full cast.

Jess LaheyThat’s true. Actually, that’s true.

Sarina BowenSo the thing about duet specifically is that the engineering part of it—the post-production—is really expensive because the engineer has to cut together this script, and actually preparing the script is also a lot of work. So it’s a pretty big deal to make a duet book. It’s more expensive. The cost of making a one-POV narrator book or a dual book is between, let’s say, $300 and $600 per finished hour.

Jess LaheyWhat do you mean by that, Sarina?

Sarina BowenSo, if you look at Audible right now, you can see the lengths of all of my audiobooks down to the minute. So it might say eight hours and thirty minutes. That means the finished length of that book is eight hours and thirty minutes. And the cost of making that book will be 8.5 times some number between $300 and $600. But if I did that book as duet, then it might be $1,000.

Jess LaheyOkay, all right.

Sarina BowenSo, every audiobook I’ve ever made cost between, like, three grand and seven grand. And if I were doing duet, then I would be hitting numbers more like $10,000.

Jess LaheyAnd make no mistake—there are stars in the audiobook world who, like celebrities in films, can earn more per finished hour for their books. And that demand is really important because they have a vibe. There are fans of particular narrators who will listen to anything that narrator reads.

Sarina BowenYeah, like my kids and I used to listen to audio narrated by Meryl Streep, and I’m sure she broke the curve for how much that cost per finished hour. But you should also know that the finished hour is not the same as how long it takes the narrator to do the job. So, if I’m paying a narrator $350 a finished hour, he is spending more time on that book, and his actual pay per hour is lower—like 150 bucks or whatever. It depends on his ratio of how fast he can narrate a book. And also, narrators’ voices get tired. They can’t narrate forty hours a week—although, actually, some of them probably do—but, you know, it’s a hard job. So, if you’re thinking, “I’m not going to pay someone $350 an hour to narrate my book,” you should know that it doesn’t really work that way, and that really is the price for a reason.

Jess LaheyAnd they’re fun—just for some fun inside baseball things. Like, for both of my books, narration hours when we worked—our starting time in the morning was pushed up a little bit because no one wants to get an audiobook narrator right after they woke up. Your voice is not primed. Your voice has gunk in it. So, we would start later. You really could only go—you know, with my first book, I think we went until, like, three in the afternoon or something. You have to take a break for lunch, and then after you eat lunch, you get all these weird secretions, and it takes time to get back into it. There’s just some weird stuff that I didn’t count on—like it was better for me to be hungry (except then my stomach would make noises, which the microphones would pick up) than to stop and eat and have to get back in the groove. Because when you’re in the groove, you kind of don’t want to stop. There was just so much more to it than I ever anticipated. It was a blast, but it took me almost a whole week. We had scheduled five days for The Gift of Failure—it’s like 78,000, 80,000 words, or something like that. We scheduled five full days; we ended up taking four. And I didn’t have pickups for that book, but I did have pickups for The Addiction Inoculation. There was a lot more scientific language in that book that we had to do some pickups for. So, yeah, it’s—

Sarina BowenPickups means edit.Jess Lahey

Yeah. So, there were a couple days where I came in—and so I actually did The Addiction Inoculation during COVID. I was at a studio here locally in Vermont with my director, the producer of the audio in one ear of my headphones, and my producer from Harper in my other ear, in New York or wherever she was. We were working in a sound booth in Vermont. And, you know, in the evening, that producer would go over the audio and make sure that all of the words were pronounced correctly and everything was good. And then the next day, we would do pickups along with the new work as well.

Sarina BowenRight. So, the editing that happens is really down to the word. Like, the engineer will sit there and, you know, go right into that space between the two words that you said and put the new thing in. And when a professional narrator is in the booth, they operate in a way that’s called punch and roll, which means that they will stop when they make an error, go back—looking at that visual sine wave of the audio on their screen—find the pause between the words, go right to that spot, and then roll forward by hitting record again and then speaking the word that they meant to say.

Jess LaheySome audiobook narrators use a clicker too. It’s a way of being able to see on the wave where you, you know, might need to go back and figure something out.

Sarina BowenYeah. So, um, there’s a lot that goes into this. Humans make a lot of noises that we’re trying not to hear. Like, some engineers will go in and dampen the breath sounds.

Jess LaheyYeah. Yep.

Sarina BowenYou know, they’ll go in and take out the “heeeeh.”

Jess LaheyActually, I had to change my clothes. My sweater was making too much noise. It turns out when I narrate, I use my arms a lot—so I actually had to learn how to narrate with my arms resting on the armrests but only using my lower arms. So, I look like the robot in Lost in Space with my little—my little—and also, my hair had to be up because my hair made noise too. And you can’t wear jewelry, you know, like bracelets and things like that also make noise.

Sarina BowenYep. And narrators all have stories like, “I can’t eat Indian food before I narrate,” or “When I go in the booth after lunch, I strap pillows around my midsection.” Like all this stuff to make sure that the sound quality works. So, that brings us to a difficult topic in how audiobooks are made, which is that a lot of books are flooding the market with AI voices. And everybody’s heard AI voices before—for example, if you’ve ever been on TikTok and you hear that weird, artificial female voice reading the—I don’t even know how to explain it—but that’s primarily why I never go on TikTok, because I cannot stand that artificial voice.

Jess LaheyI listened to—I listened to an article yesterday with The New York Times that was AI-generated that was better than those awful TikTok voices, but still, you know—still AI.

Sarina BowenYeah. So, I am not going to spend our time discussing whether those voices are good or not, but it has really gotten messy. At the beginning of AI narration, some platforms said, “No way, no how. We will never have one.” And then a lot of platforms suddenly allowed for it. So, there’s lots of AI narration in the world, and it’s causing real havoc, especially among people whose livelihoods are being affected by a drop in audio work. I really believe that the readers of my books care very much about the delivery, and it’s hard for me to think that an AI voice could carry the kind of emotion that romance readers are looking for in an audiobook. So, I hope—I hope that audio listeners continue to demand quality, because it’s a big deal.

Jess LaheyAt least right now, your listeners—you know, they love Teddy Hamilton. Or, you know, there are audiobook narrators who are very specifically—people get excited when they see a particular narrator’s voice attached to your work. And I think—and again, in Thank You for Listening, there’s that good—she goes into great detail on that whole inside baseball of narrator fans. And like, Teddy Hamilton has fans—has a fan base. And I hope that persists, because I think there’s real value in that. I hope there’s real value in that, and I hope people continue to value it.

Sarina BowenYeah, and I don’t think that’s going away anytime soon. People really aren’t clamoring to see AI Meryl Streep on the screen at the movies—and, you know, paying a movie ticket price for that. And I believe that in narration land, yeah, it’s the people coming up that will suffer the most—the newer narrators who don’t have a fan base yet and are struggling to get work. So, yeah—anyway, that is one thing. And we could talk about how to get your book done in AI production now, but I think we won’t, because...

Jess LaheyYeah.

Sarina BowenBecause that’s, you know, not—you can figure that out yourself if that’s interesting to you. But, um, I believe that humans are still the way to go here.

Jess LaheyThere was an interesting note. So, when I said that I worked really hard to get the chops to narrate my own audiobook—I mean, I went to go work for Vermont Public Radio. I recorded these commentaries. And these commentaries that my producer taught me how to record—there was a really interesting note she gave me, which is that these commentaries are really short, like just a couple of minutes—less than three minutes. And one of the things she taught me is that when I’m reading these commentaries, if at the end I look up at my producer and smile and make eye contact with my producer that it makes the narrator be even more connected to the listener. And she’s absolutely right. You could hear a difference in the commentary when I was making eye contact with my producer, and I find that fascinating and intangible and magic. There is a magic in that that I hope we do not lose with AI.

Sarina BowenYes, absolutely—and that is a fantastic place to close this episode.

Jess LaheyAbsolutely.

Sarina BowenLet’s not lose that magic.

Jess LaheyIf there are things you would like us to talk about when it comes to the nerdery of publishing—in the Publishing Nerd Corner—if you’re a huge fan of publishing nerdery, I also would love to recommend that you go over and follow Jane Friedman immediately, because she is such a great writer about the nerdery stuff in publishing. But we will continue to talk about it. If there are things you would like to know about, please let us know.

But until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output—because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 472 Publishing Nerd Corner: Earning Out Oct 31, 2025

Hey all, Jess here.

Sarina and I both love these episodes where we, two certified nerds, get to hang out with likeminded individuals and dish. This week, we are going to talk about one of Jess’ most niggling worries: what does it mean to a publisher and an author to “earn out” a book advance and what does it mean to both if that never happens?

Transcript available below, but making good ones isn’t free—help support the Podcast below!

Your subscription = good podcast karma.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Hey listeners. Did you know that we review first pages sent in by supporters every month on the pod? It’s just one more reason you should be supporting Hashtag AmWriting, which is always free for listeners—and ad free, too. Please note that we will never pitch you the latest in writer supplements or comfy clothes for lap-topping. The good news is we’re open for First Page submissions right now! If you’ve got a work-in-progress and you’d like to submit the First Page for consideration for a Booklab: First Pages episode, just hit the support button in the show note, and you’ll get an email telling you all the details. Want to hear a Booklab episode? Current ones are for supporters only but roll your pod player back to September 2024 and there they’ll be!

Multiple Speakers

Jess Lahey

Hey—welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast! This is a podcast about writing all the things—this is the podcast about writing short things, long things, you know. And specifically, where we’re going to focus these days is on a little episode we’re calling The Publishing Nerd Corner with Jess and Sarina. I’m Jess Lahey. I’m the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The Atlantic, at The New York Times, at The Washington Post, and at jesslahey.substack.com.

Sarina Bowen

And I’m Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels. My new one is called Thrown for a Loop, and it drops on November 4th , and I am so excited. And today’s topic actually pertains to what happens when you have a book that’s publishing and everybody has all these big expectations. We’re going to cover one of them, which is earning out your advance—or not—and how to frame your thinking around this.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, first. I mean, the way this Nerd Corner works is because Sarina tends to have more of the business acumen and the nerd acumen. I let her do a lot of teaching me. But one thing I would like to state at the very beginning of this—and apologies, I didn’t look up the stats; Sarina might know them—the number of books that actually earn out their advance if it’s nonfiction. For example, my book that we’re going to talk about today is nonfiction, and so I got a big advance based on a—and we’re going to talk about that. We’re going to talk numbers. It makes authors really nervous, but I think it’s important. The number of authors that actually earn out is really, really low—like, much lower than you expect. . So “earning out” can mean a couple of different things, and we’re going to talk about that today. But to set the scene, we’re going to use my book The Gift of Failure as the example for earning out. as the example for earning out. So I’ve sold a lot of books—like, this book was a success by any measure. It was on The New York Times bestseller list. I had Kristen Bell go on Instagram and say, “Buy this book, it’s so great,” and it sold out across the country. I am not complaining here; I am just saying that it makes me extremely nervous that technically I have not earned out my advance on The Gift of Failure. Again, to set the scene, The Gift of Failure was based originally—it came out of an article that went viral at The Atlantic on why parents need to let their children fail. There was a big auction for this book that lasted three whole days. It was very exciting, and the number kept going up and up and up. And I was freaking out, because now you’ve got huge expectations. I mean, I’m thrilled, but the expectations keep getting bigger and bigger. So where we ended up was Harper Books came back with the highest bid, and it was also for the editor that I was most excited to work with, Gail Winston, and it came in at $400,000, so that was wonderful. That was great. It was based on—I got five payments over five, essentially, five years, and I have not earned back that advance for my publisher. So, Sarina, what would you say to me—a writer who is stressed out because that means, you know, when they’re looking at purchasing other books like The Addiction Inoculation, I was able to sell to them, even though it’s a tough niche, that little—it’s a tough corner, that addiction corner—and they knew that this book was not going to sell as well. But on the strength of my sales of the addiction…excuse me, of The Gift of Failure, I was able to sell that book, but I hadn’t earned out. So why are they going to pay me to write another book if I hadn’t earned out?

Sarina Bowen

It’s such a great question. So the thing—the punch line of this episode—is we just want you to know that if you don’t earn out, you’re not a failure. And we don’t mean it in a nice way, like everybody gets a ribbon. We mean, like, you might not be a financial failure for the publisher, even though on your statement it says you still haven’t earned back your advance. And that’s because the advance that you’re paid is part of a profit-and-loss estimate that the publisher makes before they offer on a book. And just in case anybody is squishy about this—like, an advance means those royalty amounts in your contract, you’re getting paid an upfront amount, and then you have to, like, earn it back with those royalty amounts in your contract.

Jess Lahey

And for those who actually are not familiar with this at all, I don’t have to pay back the money if I don’t earn out. That’s not a thing.

Sarina Bowen

Right. So the publisher said, “We like this book so much we are going to pay you $400,000, and we think that you will sell enough copies that we will be in the black on our P&L statement.” But they never show us the P&L statement. So let’s just say that they had a P&L statement that shows that they’re profitable on this book even if you only sell 70,000 copies—but you’ve sold over twice that amount. So when I worked on Wall Street, I was given a bonus every year, and the bonus made everybody feel like, “This is the amount of money that you’re worth.” But what it really was is “This is the amount of money we have to pay you so you won’t quit and go work for somebody else.” And an advance is exactly the same thing—it’s how much do we have to pay you to win, but also in a way that looks okay on our profit-and-loss estimate of what this book can do. And of course, you mentioned that we don’t have good data about how many books earn back their advances. And the truth is, even if you and I had done a deep dive prior to sitting down here today, we still wouldn’t know, because nobody publishes these numbers. And the only time that you get a glimpse of them is when some publishing executive is on the stand in a court case about, say, whether two Big Five publishers can merge.

Jess Lahey

Gotcha.

Sarina Bowen

And then, yeah. And then they tend to say various things—like, they’ll give a statistic, and then everybody in publishing will be, like, nailed to the transcript of this court case to see, like, how is everybody doing in there? Because, you know, nobody—nobody tells you. Nobody is obligated, even in a publicly traded company, to give these precise statistics about how often people earn out.

So earning out has some pros and cons. Like, so you said that writing this book—because you sold it on proposal, and then you had to write it, and you had this big amount of money that you had to recoup—and that is so intimidating. And I’ve been in this same situation. I sold The Five Year Lie to HarperCollins two years before that book was published, and I still had to write the book, because that book was actually also sold on proposal.

Jess Lahey

Which doesn’t happen very often, dear listener. Do—

Sarina Bowen

That’s right

Jess Lahey

—not think that you can sell your first fiction on proposal. That’s not how it works.

Sarina Bowen

Right—that will never happen. But, um, this was my, like, 50th novel, and then you can sell on proposal. But anyway, I also had to write something in a new genre with my own expectations built in, and that’s scary. But the reason we need this fear—the value of this fear—is that both of our publishers were invested in our success. If I had been offered a low advance and I had taken this deal, then, um, sure, I would be less stressed out about the success of the book—but so would my publisher. The more skin they have in the game, the better they’re going to see your project through.

Jess Lahey

Right.

Sarina Bowen

And that is valuable. So a little bit of our fear—or, okay, fine, a lot of it—is actually doing things for this calculation that we need, that we require.

Jess Lahey

And to decode that—what that can often mean is marketing budget. So The Gift of Failure had, you know, the amount that they’re willing to invest, including the number of hours my publicist at Harper is willing to invest in publicizing this book, comes down to how invested they are in the book. And given the number that I got, they’re pretty invested in this book. And, you know, I was pretty happy with some of the publicity stuff. And also, on top of that, you know, I requested bookmarks and postcards and all that sort of stuff, and I requested to have as many as they could afford in my marketing budget shipped to me. And honestly, for The Gift of Failure I’m just now finally running out of postcards, and I use a lot of those postcards still in my marketing. And they also have been in communication since then—been really appreciative of how much I invest in the publicity. But I will say, I knew—I knew when I was old news and that they were no longer really going to invest in my publicity—when the next big thing, the next big book that was coming out from Harper with this publicist, when I started accidentally getting that author’s emails about, you know—it was a total mistake, and it was very funny—but I’m like, oh, yeah, I see, I’m done now. This is—they’re on to the next book. Which was fine. But again—and we’ve said this a million times—no one can market you better than you can market you. So that was fine with me, and I also knew that that would be a big role for me with this book. But, yeah, the marketing budget is very much factored in when you look at how much they’re willing to spend on you.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. So we should say a couple more things about [unintelligible]. One is, everybody’s first statement from the publisher—whether that comes quarterly, semi-annually, or annually—is always a little bit rattling, because they’re hard to read. They just are. Like, I don’t know any publisher who has, you know, beautiful, easy-to-read statements. And so the befuddlement one can have on there is, you know, not to be underweighted. But also, if you—so, we have this double-edged sword. Like, we want a big advance because it reduces our risk, and it increases the publisher’s risk, so they’re going to invest in it. But, as you said before, then if you don’t perform—like, if you dramatically underperform your advance—and this happens in publishing all the time—it will be maybe a little bit harder for you to sell the next book, and maybe you have to switch publishers, because maybe idea number two is really fantastic and more saleable. Then you have to find somebody with a clean slate—like, that they see the value of your new idea. They’re not intimidated by the fact that your first book didn’t sell a kajillion copies. And, you know, that editor doesn’t have, like, a wound from having, you know, failed the first time. So these things happen.

Jess Lahey

Because—keeping in mind that that editor has to go, you know—any editor that wants to acquire your book has to go before, you know, their peers, their colleagues, and say, “I really want to buy this book, and here’s how much I think it’s worth, and there’s going to be an auction.” And then, you know, I could imagine that an editor might feel like a bit of a doofus if their book doesn’t perform the way they’ve predicted in front of that room of their colleagues.

Sarina Bowen

Because they would. You know, it’s just not fair for them to come back and say, “Yeah, we’ll give you the same schlubby advance on the second one.” So, so there’s emotions on either side of this. And one thing about earning out that can happen is that sometimes, if you have a two-book deal, you will have a clause in your contract that calls for joint accounting between those two books. And this is a clause that I always ask to be taken out, because that means if you didn’t earn out—if you earned out the first book but not the second one—then they’re going to hold on to your royalties until you’ve earned out enough money to cover both advances. And that’s obviously unfavorable to the author.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, you also reminded me that there were some things that happened with The Gift of Failure, where, for example, I narrated my audiobook. And I think—I think that my flat fee for narrating that audiobook went against my advance.

Sarina Bowen

Advance. Mmhmm.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, I didn’t get a check, like a flat-out check for that. It went against my advance. And I think the same for my Spanish edition. I think that because the Spanish edition was also part of Harper—it’s Harper Español—that that went against my advance as well, as opposed to, you know, “Here’s another chunk of money for the Spanish edition.”

Sarina Bowen

Well, that was actually a really unusual scenario for you, because you sold North American rights generally on this book, right?

Jess Lahey

Yeah. Mmhmm.

Sarina Bowen

In English. You sold English only? Or World English? That would mean that…

Jess Lahey

Actually, I didn’t sell World English. It was just North American, because there’s the different North American short books, and there’s—

Sarina Bowen

Right. Okay.

Jess Lahey

—the British version.

Sarina Bowen

So North American rights means that your advance really only covers those books that sell in the U.S. and Canada and territories of the U.S.—and sometimes the Philippines, for reasons that nobody has ever explained to me. But if you’d sold world rights instead, you would have the entire world to help you pay down that advance and then start earning royalties. And I did have a moment last year where I asked my agent, like, “Why didn’t we sell world rights on this book?” Because now we’re scrambling to place the book with a U.K. editor. And she said—and it made so much sense—she said, “Because if the U.K. branch of your publisher is not fired up about the book and is not motivated, then we won’t get the placement you want anyway.”

Jess Lahey

Got it!

Sarina Bowen

Like, it won’t work. And of course, that made lots of sense—like, they’re busy acquiring titles that they feel they can sell in the U.K. to their audience, and they know best about that. So I needed to be reminded why that is. But, yeah—so lots of things can go against our advances. And the point of today’s discussion was to make sure that you understand that there’s an emotional load for the way that we do these things. And your publisher might be very happy with you even if you didn’t earn out your advance.

Jess Lahey

I can tell you, though, where The Gift of Failure is concerned—I have earned out in one spot, and that is China. In China, I have earned—not only did I earn out, they decided to renew my contract early because they were so pleased with sales there. So that’s good. I do get small royalty checks for my Chinese version, so yay!

Sarina Bowen

(Laughing)

Jess Lahey

Giddy up.

Sarina Bowen

Giddy up.

Jess Lahey

All right, have we covered everything we want to cover on this topic?

Sarina Bowen

We have, and we hope that our listeners are out there getting the best advances they can and then not worrying about them too much.

Jess LaheyExcellent. I like that answer. And until next time, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Make a Quiet Novel Roar Oct 24, 2025

You kids I can’t even with Catherine Newman right now because I am a Wreck and a Sandwich myself at the moment but wow, she’s a good writer, so honest it’s like there’s no skull between her mind and the readers. We talk about what it means to use yourself and your world in your fiction and what it’s meant to Catherine to play as big as she possibly can and go bigger and deeper with every book.

We ALSO talk about Catherine’s totally granular technique for planning and tracking and keeping her eye on the ball in every chapter while still pulling in all the other things while making sure that if it’s Friday night a teacher character doesn’t get up and go to teach the next morning and the blackberries never ripen in April, and let me tell you that I just went back and listened to that now and I am about to implement it because it’s brilliant.

Ok, time to let you listen (although links to what Catherine and I are reading and loving are below). ALSO…

Truth? We wanted to tuck the transcript away behind a paywall, but it turns out we can’t do that and still give you the episode… so, here it is. But we have to pay someone to make a good one, that you can read. And we still have to pay ourselves and all our people. BUT LOOK YOU GET ALL OF US. We’re not just one writer, we’re a whole bunch—a Groupstack, and yes we coined the term, and you get a lot of bang for your subscription. So, if you could kick in, we’d cheer.

Please don’t make us try to sell you Quince clothing or gambling sites to support the pod.

#AmReading

Catherine: A Truce That Is Not Peace by Miriam Toews

KJ:

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell’Antonia

It’s fall, y’all, and there’s got to be a T-shirt that says that, right? So it’s, you know, fresh notebooks, sharpened pencils, sharpened sense of ambition, excitement after the languid summer days, and, of course, the glory that is decorative gourd season. You can say that with all the swears that you like, but I’m not going to hear “falling leaves” and “Halloween,” which means it’s time for smoky, eerie, witchy reads, and I have just the thing for you—Playing the Witch Card. Expect a woman starting over again after her marriage collapses, hampered by her magic-obsessed daughter, her flaky mother, her enchanted ex, and a powerful witch who’s thrilled that she’s back in town—and not for a good reason. To keep her family together, Flair has to embrace the hereditary magic that’s done nothing but ruin her life in the past and make it her own. I was inspired by what I see as the real magic of tarot cards, which play a huge role in this book—and tea leaves and palm reading, and honestly, every form of oracle. They’re here to help us see and understand our own stories, which is pretty much what Flair figures out. And as someone for whom stories are everything, I love that. You can buy Playing the Witch Cardeverywhere, and I hope you will do exactly that—and love it too.

Multiple Speakers

KJ Dell’Antonia

Hey, kids, it’s KJ, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast—the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. Today on the pod, I’m talking with Catherine Newman. She is the author most recently of We All Want Impossible Things and Sandwich, and also, earlier in her career,Waiting for Birdy andCatastrophic Happiness, as well as two fabulous “how to be a person in the world” books for kids that, honestly, I think we could all benefit from. I’m considering just, you know, sending out copies. They are How to Be a Person and What Can I Say?—that one’s really useful. Okay, so now, just out, she has Wreck—which kind of comes after Sandwich, but you could read them separately. They’re both small, intense books. Wreck, like all of Catherine’s work, is inevitably about exactly what I just said—it’s how to be a person in the world. Which—I didn’t actually ask Catherine this; I’m recording my intro for y’all after talking to her—but she would not tell you she knows how to be a person in the world. But she is so fantastic about the part where we’re all figuring it out, and being aware that we’re all figuring it out. And that’s what all of her books are about. In the interview, which you’re going to love, she calls herself the queen of the slight plot element, which made me laugh really hard and also made me realize that I think Catherine Newman is the modern Anne Tyler. So tell me what you think in the comments on the show notes—which you’d better be getting. They are at...there’s no hashtag in our name—AmWritingPodcast.com—or search anywhere they will have the books that Catherine mentions, and also all of your chances to do all of the things, like have your First Pageappear in a Booklabepisode. Talk to us. Get in there. Tell us what you’re thinking about writing. Write along with us. Really just—just all the community stuff that we all so desperately want. Okay, here comes my interview with Catherine. I know—gosh, it was so fun to talk to you. You guys are going to love it. Catherine Newman, welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, where you’ve been at least once, maybe twice—I need to go and look. It’s so fun to have you back. I remember us walking in the woods before you had finished We All Want Impossible Things in 2021.

Catherine Newman

I remember it too.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Which, actually, for three books, is not that long ago.

Catherine Newman

Hey, that’s true. I know... I remember your dog.

KJ Dell’Antonia

He’s here somewhere.

Catherine Newman

You had a young dog with you. It was the best. And you—you said so many things that I’ve thought about so much on that walk. But I don’t want to derail the thing you want to talk about.

KJ Dell’Antonia

But, but same—it was a great walk. We must do it again. All right, meanwhile—okay, so I already described in the introduction all the things you’ve ever written in the past and raved about you, so don’t—don’t worry about that. You’ve been—sorry you don’t get to hear the petting. But the question is, tell us—tell us a little bit about Wreck.

Catherine Newman

Yeah, soWreck...

KJ Dell’Antonia

I know, I know, it’s painful. Elevator pitch or whatever you want to say, because seriously, I did just tell everyone about them in the intro.

Catherine Newman

I really need an elevator pitch. I feel like We All Want Impossible Things was like a woman whose best friend was dying while she, like, slept with everybody.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, it was joyful.

Catherine Newman

That was easy.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Also sad.

Catherine Newman

Sandwichwas like Cape Cod for a week, reproductive mayhem, sandwich generation. Wreck is so weird because there’s these two sort of very slight plot elements. So it’s, you know, a woman in her mid-50s living in a house with her husband of many years, her daughter, who’s between college and grad school, and her dad, who was fairly recently widowed and in his 90s. And that’s mostly what the book is, but the little plots are that she has a rash—she notices that she has a rash—and it inaugurates this kind of diagnostic tornado. A slow and quiet tornado, but a tornado nonetheless, where she has to see a billion doctors. She has to constantly check her patient portal to see if she’s dying or not, and anyone who’s had—who’s been anything but healthy in the last 10 years will understand the patient portal.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yes, I love the checker. I checked a patient portal from a hockey-rink parking lot, and that’s a mistake, just FYI.

Catherine Newman

Just don’t...

KJ Dell’Antonia

To anyone considering it, don’t do it on a Friday night. Don’t do that.

Catherine Newman

Just don’t even look. And then the other plot point is that there’s an accident—there’s a collision between a car and a train—and a schoolmate of her kids, like someone they went to high school with, is killed in this accident. And she becomes kind of weirdly obsessed with the accident. She looks at it online all the time. She stalks everyone’s...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Which so tracks for the character that you have created.

Catherine Newman

Doesn’t it? And that’s it. And so the book sort of is those things unfolding in this parallel way—these uncertain things.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So when you wrote it, what—what was your intention for this? What did you want Wreckto be in your career and for your readers?

Catherine Newman

What? It’s so funny to be asked questions about my career. I don’t know what I wanted it to be in my career, but maybe while I’m talking to you, I’ll figure that out.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Okay.

Catherine Newman

Or you can tell me. But for my readers—I do think we’re in this funny place where some of us are hungry to read about the experiences of other menopausal women who are taking care of aging parents, whose nests are emptying, who are in long marriages, who are, you know, doing the things of this age, including tracking weird illnesses. So I guess that—you know, I think, I feel like the thing that I love about writing—one of the things—is when people say to me, like, “Oh yeah, I feel the same way about that,” or they write me and they’re like, “Oh, I read this, and I felt so relieved that I wasn’t alone.” And I guess I have a lot of that hope—you know, that it speaks to someone, or someone’s been in their portal rummaging around and finding out horrible things about their health and Googling them. Like, that’s not a small part of the population who’s probably doing that. So I guess just that—you know, the handout, the “I’m with you on this” vibe.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So what do you love most about it?

Catherine Newman

(Laughing) I mean, that’s a funny and embarrassing question. I... you know, the father character is based very closely on my own father. Many of the things he says are verbatim lifted from conversations and texts with my dad. And I just love that character so much. I think he’s so funny and has this kind of deep wisdom. I mean, Wreck plays him for laughs a little bit, but he offers so much to her. He’s still this really profound caretaking force in her life, even though he himself, you know, is failing in different ways. So I guess that’s what I like.

KJ Dell’Antonia

How does your dad feel about you taking his stuff?

Catherine Newman

He loved this book.

KJ Dell’Antonia

I love this!

Catherine Newman

He has not felt that way always about the way I represent him. I represent him in Sandwichin similar ways, and Sandwich—there were just particular things that bugged him. He loved the book overall but didn’t love his character. I think in this book, maybe because there’s so much of his character, that it gets to be a very well-rounded kind of person, and also somebody whose opinion it’s obvious the other characters respect. So he really loved it, which was, like, everything to me, you know?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, oh, wow. I’d give a lot for that. That’s—that’s wonderful. I would—it’s... although all my dad ever says is, “Why don’t you—you only write about mothers? You never write...” I’m like, well, I don’t know if you read some of the mothers. You’re kind of lucky. You’re doing okay. I don’t know why—you guys were great. You should have been better fodder for affection, and then I would... yeah. All right. So, okay, so that’s what you love about it. What was the hardest about this?

Catherine Newman

It’s funny—it’s a little hard to talk about without spoilers, but, um, there’s a difficult part of the plot that involves Rocky’s son, who works for a consulting firm in New York, where she really questions his values, questions the decision to do that kind of work.

KJ Dell’Antonia

That would stun me, frankly.

Catherine Newman

However, he knows a lot about that kind of work, and talked to me a ton about it for the book—like, went on a million walks with me and let me pick his brain about it. And I really just found it so hard to write about this kind of painful conflict between Rocky and her son. I just found it really hard. Yeah...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Obviously, yeah, that’s actually what you did, wasn’t it?

Catherine Newman

I can imagine... that’s it. I imagined it. And honestly, my husband could hardly stand to read it. He found it so devastating. Just—and it’s, as you know, it’s not massive conflict. It’s like...

KJ Dell’Antonia

But it is. It’s...

Catherine Newman

But it is. Yep

KJ Dell’Antonia

I mean, it’s, you know—

Catherine Newman

Yep.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It’s it—goes back to Alex Keaton, right? [Unintelligible] Both of us, yeah, yeah, no, I get it. It’s a really—and by writing it, even if it’s not autobiographical, which it’s not, it’s fiction, you are saying something about some compatriots, you know, some other—you’re really, you’re—you’re putting—you’re putting a stake in the ground, which I think has always been pretty obvious for anyone who knows you or has read you, but maybe you had not verbalized even in a fictional form.

Catherine Newman

Hmm, maybe.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Could feel judgmental because—it’s judgmental (whispered). But it’s values. That’s what values do. A value that doesn’t judge anyone isn’t a value, even if you don’t want to judge people. But I think it’s kind of true, like...

Catherine Newman

Yeah, yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

You can also be open. But, I mean, that’s—I don’t know if, if you don’t offer that up, then we’re all just sitting here going, “Oh, it’s fine. It’s all...”

Catherine Newman

Everything’s fine.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Everything’s fine, it’s fine. That’s a joke in our house, because we had this Spanish exchange student, and he would always say, “Oh, it’s fine,” when—and it—what that meant was, it wasn’t.

Catherine Newman

Oh no, it wasn’t fine.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, no... that’s what it means when we say, “It’s fine.”

Catherine Newman

Oh my God, KJ.

KJ Dell’Antonia

All right, so this kind of gets to, I think, my next question, which—which is, what about this was, um, bigger for you? Was a bigger leap to take in your writing?

Catherine Newman

It’s like, you know, I think it’s just a little more plot in a novel than I’ve ever managed. Even though, you know—don’t laugh because there’s not a ton of plot. But nonetheless, there were sort of these two vectors of significant—I thought—dramatic contention that I had to manage in the writing, and—and I was anxious about it. Like, I—I like a quiet story that’s not like—is too plot-driven. But anyway, so that is—it was, you know, I definitely plotted it a little more actively before I wrote it, like I wanted to make sure that these plots were unfolding in the timeframe I wanted them to unfold in.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And did that present some new, like, “Oops, I did this too fast, oops...” just that you hadn’t really had to...?

Catherine Newman

No, because I plotted it. It actually didn’t, but it just presented—before I started writing, I had the challenge of, you know, practically trying to graph these two plots to see where they would intersect, and—and the sort of ways that the two plots together create this kind of character arc for Rocky, the main character. And so I was—I just, like—I usually, I have this way that I plot stuff, and it’s kind of based on that book that I use because of you, which is like, you know, Put On Your Pants—or Take Off Your Pants, or, you know, the book...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Catherine Newman

And—and I, so I do this thing where I make a—I write down the numbers 1 to 25, and I print that. I print a piece of paper that has the numbers 1 through 25 in type font. I don’t know why I don’t just hand-write the whole thing. That—and I guess the thought’s how many chapters it’s going to be, but it’s never quite right. And then I fill in what I know. So I put in everything I know, and guess where it’s going to go in terms of the—what are the things? What’s it called when it’s like a thing...?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, the... the turning point or the...

Catherine Newman

Or the beat...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Or the moment of last resolve? Yeah, the beat!

Catherine Newman

Yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah.

Catherine Newman

So I fill in everything, like, I know, you know. I have a sense of how it’s going to open. I have a sense of the different elements of the two plots, and I put them in this weird numbered-chapter thing. And usually—like, usually as if I’ve written so many books—but with the other two novels, I did that a little willy-nilly, and it was fine. Like, I sat down and wrote the books beginning to end without all of it totally sorted in terms of where everything would go, and that was fine. This book, I really had to understand where it was all going to go, so I had to just be sure that all of the most important plot points were plotted in that 1-through-25.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Do you? I mean, you have a lot of moving emotional pieces too. Asking for a friend—how do you make sure that those are all resolved? Or do you? Or does it just happen?

Catherine Newman

That’s a really good question. I hope they’re resolved, or if they’re not, that that’s intentional, by the way. Yeah, I—I’m just thinking about, like, the different relationships. You know, most of what the book is, is like Rocky’s relationships with the people she loves—like, that is sort of the heart of the book. And then her grappling with herself, both physically and psychologically. I think I have a sense of those. Those are kind of included in those. I have, like, a—in that 1-through-25— sorry if this is too granular.

KJ Dell’Antonia

No, I love it.

Catherine Newman

In the 1-through-25, I have the plot thing that’s like, “Rocky reads her biopsy results,” or, you know, whatever the thing is. And then I have this other column that’s like, the other things that need to happen in that chapter, if that’s what’s happening in the chapter. And that’s where I keep information about stuff that’s like, “Willa forgives her,” you know—whatever other thing needs to happen. So I sort of track the plot, and then I—and I also have a little other column that’s just like, seasonal details. And that I don’t fill out super carefully, but, like, because this book moves from essentially Labor Day to New Year’s, I—I just tracked a little before I started writing, like, around when in that season things were going to be happening, you know, that’s Halloween, it’s Thanksgiving, it’s the winter holidays, New Year’s, and then it’s going to be, like, the leaves are turning, the blackberries that, you know?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, no, it’s so hard. Is it Tuesday? Like...?

Catherine Newman

Yeah (laughing).

KJ Dell’Antonia

Dang it. Oh, wait—if its four days from the first day, and the first day was a Thursday, that means its Sunday, and Sundays do have a particular rhythm on their own. And yeah, no, it’s so hard.

Catherine Newman

It’s really hard, although that part’s my favorite part, probably—besides, I love dialogue. But I love—I keep a lot of notes that are really dull on their own about, like, the weather and the landscape, just in general. I don’t even know what I’m going to use them for. I just keep a ton of notes about the seasons. And I love pilfering stuff for fiction from them because it’s just like—it’s going to be fairly accurate. Like, I will have dated it. I’ll have a fairly strong sense of whether that will work or not.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, you’re not going to put the blackberries in April.

Catherine Newman

And I’m not going to put the blackberries in April, and I have that cheater feeling of chunking in something I’ve already kind of written down, and then your word count goes up by, like, 300 words.

KJ Dell’Antonia

You’re like, hey... [Unintelligible].

Catherine Newman

Yeah, exactly.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh my gosh, I love this. All right, well, one last question, and that is—what have you read recently where you felt like the writer was really, you know, playing big, doing their very max?

Catherine Newman

Yeah, I just read—well, I just got it in the mail, although my kitten—I want to show you, she has, like...

KJ Dell’Antonia

She had some fun with it...

Catherine Newman

Chewed up every corner.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah.

Catherine Newman

So this book is A Truce That Is Not Peace by Miriam Toews. And she is a very, very favorite writer of mine. She wrote the novel All My Puny Sorrows that I always press on everybody, because it’s like the perfect funny, sad novel. This book I got to blurb, so I read it a while ago, and it just came—and I think it just came out maybe this week, I’m not sure. It’s so incredibly good. It’s really strange—someone—she’s doing some conference in Mexico, and she has to write an answer to the question, “Why do I write?”

KJ Dell’Antonia

Okay.

Catherine Newman

And she keeps starting and stopping, and it’s so—it’s nonfiction. I mean, it’s just authentically this, and she includes, like, letters to her sister. Her sister killed herself some number of years ago, and that’s the event that All My Puny Sorrows—which is a novel—is based on. But this, I am under the impression that’s the first time she’s written about it...

KJ Dell’Antonia

In a nonfiction way—yeah.

Catherine Newman

In a nonfiction way. And it is just—I did that thing, you know, when a book is so good? I picked it up because I knew I was going to talk to you about it, and then I read it for, like, an hour.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, no, I get it.

Catherine Newman

Even though I have, like, already read it. It’s so moving and beautiful and so—like, she’s just struggling in this, like, really profound way to process loss and to understand herself and what she’s created in the world. And it’s so good.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It sounds huge, and I would—yeah, I’m going to pick it up. I have a funny story about All My Puny Sorrows, which is that I took it to Spain while I was waiting for one of those patient-portal things. I had cancer at the time, and that’s—the character of the sister who wanted to kill herself made me so angry that I had to hide—not only did I have to leave the book behind, I had to hide it in the hotel so it would not juju me. I obviously survived, because this was, I think, seven or eight years ago. But I couldn’t—like, I just—it was... but that actually speaks to the power of the book.

Catherine Newman

Interesting... yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It’s not that it wasn’t an amazing book. It was that I literally couldn’t handle the particular, you know, mental illness that the sister was struggling with when I, you know, did not really want to die. Did not want to die, yeah. So I...

Catherine Newman

That’s amazing... yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

She’s a really powerful writer.

Catherine Newman

That—that is a really powerful story. Wait, were you going to share with me a book? Or it doesn’t work that way?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Well, it doesn’t...

Catherine Newman

KJ looks around...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Because I did not prepare.

Catherine Newman

What are you writing, KJ? What are you working on? What’s happening?

KJ Dell’Antonia

All right, we’re going to call this as an episode.

Catherine Newman

(Laughing)

KJ Dell’Antonia

Because it was excellent, and then I’m going to answer Catherine’s question, which all of you listeners kind of vaguely know. Let’s just say I’m trying to play big. All right, so this is me ending with: thank you so much, Catherine Newman, for joining me on the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast.

Catherine Newman

Thank you, KJ; it was a pleasure, as always.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And for all you listeners, we’re still saying it—keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

Subscribe to back the show that backs your writing life

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

On Interviewing Kids Oct 10, 2025

Kate Rope’s new book, Strong as a Girl is not only well-written and thoroughly researched, it includes the voices of so many girls and young women. In this week’s episode, Jess talks with Kate about how she managed to secure interviews with these girls, get permission to use their voices, and manage the paperwork around all those releases.

Find Kate via her website: Kate Rope, @kateropewriter on Instagram, and her Substack Strong as a Human

Transcript Below!

Jess LaheyHey, it’s Jess Lahey. If you’ve been listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast for any length of time, you know that, yes, I am a writer, but my true love—my deepest love—is combining writing with speaking. I get to go into schools, into community organizations, into nonprofits, into businesses, and do everything from lunch and learns to community reads to just teaching about the topics that I’m an expert in, from the topics in The Gift of Failure, engagement, learning, learning in the brain, cognitive development, getting kids motivated, and yes, the topic of over-parenting and what that does to kids’ learning—two topics around The Addiction Inoculation, substance use prevention in kids, and what I’ve been doing lately that’s the most fun for me, frankly, is combining the two topics. It makes the topic of substance use prevention more approachable, less scary when we’re talking about it in the context of learning and motivation and self-efficacy and competence and, yes, cognitive development.

So if you have any interest in bringing me into your school, to your nonprofit, to your business, I would love to come—you can go to jessicalahey.com, look under the menu option “Speaking,” and go down to “Speaking Inquiry.” There’s also a lot of information on my website about what I do. There are videos there about how I do it. Please feel free to get in touch, and I hope I get to come to your community. If you put in the speaking inquiry that you are a Hashtag AmWriting listener, we can talk about a discount, so that can be one of the bonuses for being a loyal and long-term listener to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. Hope to hear from you.

Multiple Speakers

Jess Lahey

Hey, welcome to Hashtag AmWriting. This is the podcast about reading all the things—short things, long things, poetry, nonfiction, fiction, articles, queries, book proposals. This is the podcast about writing all the things, but more than anything else, this is the podcast about getting the writing done, getting the work of being a writer done. I’m Jess Lahey. I’m the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The Washington Post and The New York Times and The Atlantic and lots of other places.

And today I have a guest—a guest I’m very, very excited about. So today I’m going to be talking with Kate Rope about a topic that I have wanted to cover for a while and have not had exactly the right person to cover the topic with. Kate Rope is a writer. She is a journalist, and she’s had articles at a lot of the same places that I have, actually—like The New York Times, The Washington Post, and things like that. She wrote a wonderful book called Strong like a Mother [Strong as a Mother], and her new book, Strong like a Girl [Strong as a Girl], is coming out in October—October 14, to be precise. And thank you so much, Kate, for coming on the podcast.

Kate Rope

Oh, I’m so excited. It’s a dream come true. It’s—it’s literally like leveling up in my world.

Jess Lahey

Okay, so help me remember where we actually first met? It could have been through Jess Foundation people, because those people in common.

Kate Rope

No, no, it was before then. I think I just sought you out for—for being a source for a couple of articles.

Jess Lahey

Oh, okay.

Kate Rope

Just because of having read your The Gift of Failure.

Jess Lahey

Normally what I do—what I need, what our computers need now—is a function called “How do I know blah, blah, blah?” Because there are all these people that, like, we know them from online, or I know them because I’ve used them as a source somewhere for some article. So I got on my computer, and I looked in my little, you know, search terms, and I put your name in, and I was looking for, like, our earliest contact, and I couldn’t find it. But I think our computers need, like...

Kate Rope

I think it was a phone call.

Jess Lahey

How—oh, okay, well, there you go.

Kate Rope

I think that’s why there’s no record of it.

Jess Lahey

Well, either way, I’m so glad we’re talking now. I love, love, love your new book. I’ve been fortunate enough to read an early version of it. It’s really lovely. You ended up with a beautiful cover—I can’t wait for everybody to see it. I will be posting a picture of it in the show notes. But I wanted to talk to you—and you actually came up with this independently—but this is this topic I’ve wanted to talk about for a long time: about interviewing kids specifically. Like, logistically, there are a lot of hurdles to get through when you interview kids There can be, I know, depending on, like, the when, the where, the why, and the how. But I wanted to talk a little bit about interviewing—how we interview kids, how we interview people in general, how we get permission, how we approach people. So since you had sort of this idea to begin with, I would love for you to start and talk a little bit about your book—how on earth you got access to the people you talked to in your book, and how that process went for you.

Kate Rope

Sure. So it goes back to my first book. I will admit to having a bias—I do not like books that have case studies that open chapters, and so it’s like, “Sarah and her family could never get homework done,” and so it, you know, went for, you know, this is what they went through. And if you don’t relate to that particular story, you check out. So for my last—my last book, Strong as a Mother—I wanted to have the voices of all different kinds of moms and pregnant people, you know, sharing what their experience was, so that a reader could find some other person that had gone through what they had gone through. And so for that...

Jess Lahey

Can I hit pause? Can I hit pause for just one second? So my—and this is, I’m going to be talking to my Authority to Author person that I’ve been interviewing for a series that I’m doing on going from being an authority to being an author—and we talk a lot about this: like, what’s your framing narrative for the chapter? How do you create narrative? So I want to make sure at some point we talk about—so if you’re not a fan of sort of the case study approach, how do you go about thinking about creating a narrative to use to couch your data, so that it’s not just about data?

Kate Rope

Yeah, I do have stories in there. So I might have, you know, a couple of paragraphs with a particular story that illustrates, you know, whatever we’re talking about in the chapter, but it doesn’t ground the whole chapter in one experience. So…

Jess Lahey

I like that.

Kate Rope

Yeah, it’s trying to bring in different, different viewpoints. I tend to write very much, like, voice-forward. So I bring people in, and I talk about, you know, the research, but I don’t tend to be really clinical or academic. So I tend to kind of create the narrative. I bring the people’s stories in within the body of the text. But then what I did in Strong as a Mother was, at the end of each chapter, I had quotes from pregnant people and moms about whatever the topic was. So, let’s say it was a chapter on breastfeeding, or choosing how you’re going to feed your kid. I wanted the mom who said, “I never wanted to breastfeed. I went to the hospital; I put a sign on my door that said, ‘Do not bring a lactation consultant in here. I know what I’m doing. I’m doing formula.’”

I wanted the woman who was like, “Breastfeeding is all I ever wanted to do in my whole life, and it just didn’t work, and I had to stop. And it was heartbreaking, but I got through it.” I wanted the woman who was like, “This was the one thing that worked out for me, and I loved it, and I did it till my child was four.” Because then, at the end of the chapter, you’ve read this whole chapter on making choices about feeding your child that feel good to you and that work for you—and adjusting if life makes it not possible to live out that particular choice. And then I wanted them to see people who had done it, and who’d gotten through it. So that’s the way I did Strong as a Mother. And it was funny—I had so many in the end, and the only ding I got in Publishers Weekly was that they wanted more. But we had to cut so many, because otherwise the book would have been, like 600 pages long.

Jess Lahey

Which is interesting, because then I have to—I, you know, if I’m going to go with, as I did both in The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, I chose one framing narrative. So I have to be really careful about, how can I make this framing narrative as general, as appealing to as many people as possible? Because it is going to be a very thin slice, no matter what you do. But how you generalize that for people who may be experiencing something different is—it’s a hard thing to do. So that’s a really interesting choice to have to make—to say, okay, I’m not going to focus it on this one story versus, I’m going to give lots of different ways to people. I like thinking about that.

Kate Rope

It’s sort of like if…

Jess Lahey

Because I get stuck in…

Kate Rope

You went to a moms’ group…

Jess LaheyThe way I do things…

Kate Rope

Yeah, it’s—you had went to—then why do you go to a moms’ group early on when you have your baby? So that you don’t feel like a weirdo and somebody else is going through the same thing. So I kind of wanted this to be, like, three pages of a moms’ group for, you know, perinatal depression and anxiety, breastfeeding, sex, co-parenting—whatever the topics were. I wanted them to feel like they had entered a room with peers who were open to all the different experiences, you know, one can have when going through, you know, trying to make or bring a child into your home. You know?

Jess Lahey

I like that. Thank you for opening my eyes to a different way. It’s just what you’re used to, I suppose, and how you want to go about entering into your storytelling.

Kate Rope

Yeah, and so for Strong as a Girl, that didn’t feel quite the right way to go. So what I wanted to do was—and I’m a journalist, so I don’t even have, like you have—you’re a teacher, you’re trained. I am trained as a journalist. So all of the, you know, there’s some stories and advice that come from me living out my experience—me mostly doing things that I’ve learned from experts—but most of the actual advice and tips and everything is coming from experts. So I know I’m going to interview experts—experts for the book—and then I wanted to interview girls themselves, because I wanted to hear from them. What do they want? You know, basically, you know—this book is written for caregivers and parents of kids who identify as girls, elementary-age kids who identify as girls, so big, five to twelve. And you know, you can talk with ten and up, I would say. But, you know, five, six, seven, eight was not necessarily where I was going to get my, you know, sort of most self-reflective comments on what helps them and what doesn’t.

Jess Lahey

Although you do get great—you do get great quotes from kids those age.

Kate Rope

Agreed, agreed, agreed. So I went with, you know, kind of, you know, middle, upper elementary, middle school, all the way up through college. And I gathered focus groups together—and we can talk about why I did focus groups—but the whole point, the whole—what I wanted in the book was girls and young women reflecting on their childhoods: what helps them, what were the things that people in their lives did that were really helpful to them, and what were the things that they wish they had done differently or didn’t have access to? So that it was literally like—the way I would start off the focus groups is, I’d be like, “Pretend you’re talking to an auditorium of caregivers, and you get to tell them exactly the best way to do this job, like the way that’s going to help you the most to just— I want to know those things.” So for that...

Jess Lahey

Okay, so let’s talk about the focus groups. Yeah, the focus groups—because I think A) brilliant, B) how on earth do you get—do you pull a focus group together? Like, it’s something that when most people hear focus groups, they think of, like, oh, you know, this is how you beta test a movie, like.

Kate Rope

Yeah... “Do you like this toilet paper?

Jess Lahey

You do a test for a movie and see what the focus group thinks. Right? Exactly. How on earth do you, as a journalist, pull together a focus group? Because that’s such an incredible, valuable— and how do you select who’s going to be in your focus group?

Kate Rope

Yeah, so I have to give—so I have several writing groups, and one of them is professors in the Education Department at Georgia State. So they all write papers and stuff, and we get together, and I write whatever I’m writing, and so—and they’re all in education, and they’re all in early education. And so they interview kids, and so they said to me right off the bat, “You have to do focus groups. You have to have groups.” Because adults, you know, typically one-on-one, you can get them to start talking. But with kids, they’re going to respond to each other, and they’re going to riff off each other and develop a rapport. But—but you can’t have too many. There were definitely some focus groups—I would say the sweet spot is maybe four to six. Six starts to get a little unwieldy, only because you can’t keep them for three hours, and they all have so much good stuff to say. And so I had focus groups that were anywhere from two people to—I think, I think I had a seven—and they were virtual, because the girls were from all over the country and young women, and I wanted them to represent different lived experiences of girls.

So, you know, girls are not a monolith. You know, there are some things unique to being a female in our society—challenges, strengths, all those things—and then there are things, you know, that are unique to being a girl of color or living with a physical disability. So I wanted to talk with groups of girls who could speak to just the experience of being a girl and what helped them, and then also whatever, you know, their specific identity or lived experience was—what were the additional inputs that were helpful to them, or additional obstacles that they have ideas about how to help girls overcome. So in that case, I wrote—I reached out to organizations. So I reached out to a bunch of different organizations that work with girls of color, and I just said, “This is what I’m doing.” And literally in the acknowledgments, I say to those organizations, like, “You didn’t have to return my email, but you did,” because I just blind-emailed a bunch of organizations and said, “Here’s what I’m doing. Do you have—?” And a lot of these organizations have, like, an advisory council, or a summer camp or they just, you know, work with the same girls again and again. They have ambassador programs. So, you know, they could—they reached out to their network and said, “Who wants to do this?”

And so that was one approach. Same thing with having a focus group of girls living with a physical disability—I reached out to the Disability EmpowHer Network, and they helped me connect with, in that case, I think they were mostly young women. I think they were all about college age, maybe some in high school.And then, let’s see—for neuro—I wanted a big group of girls with neurodivergence, and that I just did pretty much by word of mouth. I created Google Surveys, Google Forms saying, “I’m looking to talk with girls. This is how it’ll go,” and just sent it to everybody, all and sundry, and had caregivers respond and say, “Yes, you know, my child is interested.” Same with LGBTQIA+ kids. So I basically kind of—and—and that was interesting. It was hard for me to find organizations because they are so protective of their LGBTQ youth—which I completely respect—that they don’t really like to do that. So that group, I had to kind of grassroots it, like I did with the girls living with neurodivergence. And I was very clear—and this is an important—we don’t have to do this now if you have more questions—but I definitely want to talk about the ethics and the...

Jess Lahey

Oh, I want to definitely go into this.

Kate Rope

Yeah, yeah.

Jess Lahey

This is all really interesting.

Kate Rope

And the parameters—so, so, so my motto is, you know, in the last book was “No mothers will be harmed in the creating of this book.” In this one: “No girls will be harmed in the creating of this book.” So there—I, the only thing I want to publish is some—I want to publish something a girl is happy to see on the page. Because I’m not supporting the mental health and well-being of girls if I am sacrificing one person’s experience and well-being to make a point or whatever. So I made it very clear from the start that they were completely in control of what ended up—I recorded everything, then I chose my quotes, and then I ran them by them. They could change their mind at any time—like, basically, they had total control of what ended up in the book, including an alias or just their first name. You know, if they wanted to say, instead of saying they were from, you know, Encinitas, they wanted to say they were from Southern California. I’m also very careful, having come up as a research director and editor in magazines that I never want to have identifying information about minors. So I didn’t—I would never do a full name and a location. For instance, I would really never do a full name. It’s always just a first name or an alias, and then location in a general enough way. And that kind of depends too on what we’re talking about and how sensitive it is. So...

Jess Lahey

One of the fun things that I let the kids do often was pick their own alias if they wanted to. It was a fun way—it was sort of like, “Ooh, that’s exciting, oh my gosh.” And then it turned into, like, a whole project—like, “Oh my gosh, what’s my name going to be?” That was kind of fun too. But I love—I think for a lot of people, especially people who have never done this before, it sounds completely overwhelming to try to ethically get the voices of kids into a book. And it can be easier to, you know, just sort of avoid talking to them directly—which is the problem with a lot of books about kids. Or even when you go into education, and I’m like—every once in a while, I’m like, “Or we could just ask them.” And it seems like there’s a big block about actually talking to the kids themselves, because it is complicated. There are considerations that you have to hold dear to your heart if you really are working for the betterment of kids and not, as you said before—which I really like the way you articulated it—you know, you can’t harm one kid in order to get a story out to lots of others, no matter how helpful you think that story is going to be

Kate Rope

Yeah, yeah. And it sounds overwhelming, but first of all, those focus groups were the best part of doing this book. These girls had insight and humor and natural, reflexive inclusivity. And, I mean, they just made me feel better about the world every time I finished. And I mean what I mean—they, sometimes there was one that went for two hours, and that was cool. That was the group of girls who had different neurodivergences, and they got so into each other that, like, at a certain point, I just was sitting there while they were exchanging numbers and sharing what their interests were. And so, so yeah—I, it was so enjoyable, and it wasn’t that overwhelming. Because going through an organization, you’ve got someone helping you, you know, get this all together. You’ve got someone helping you distribute the waivers, because you have to have, you know, release forms signed. And, you know, I just kept a really good Google Sheet of, like, who has signed the waiver, what’s their approved name, what’s their approved quote.

So, so that—I think, honestly, that’s not the hardest part. I mean, I think the other—I do try to be really efficient in other ways with my interviewing. With experts, I always do a recorded—nowadays, mostly Zoom—used to be phone interview. Because I don’t know what they’re going to tell me, right? I know what I’m interested in, but I don’t know what they’re going to tell me. With caregivers—and I also have caregiver quotes throughout Strong as a Girl—I usually want to talk to them about a particular topic. You know, “How did you first handle your daughter’s dyslexia diagnosis? How do you talk about sex with your daughter? When did you start? When she’s having really big emotions, how do you guys work through it?” So for that, I just did Google Forms, because they have—they know the answer to that question. I know what I’m looking for. I’m looking for information about specific things to get a sense of different ways families handle things, and they can just respond in a Google Form, and it’s easier than trying to get a busy, you know, parent or caregiver on the phone.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Kate Rope

So that was how that—so, like—

Jess Lahey

That makes a lot of sense.

Kate Rope

That made it less overwhelming. I sort of have three tiers of interviews.

Jess Lahey

How do you go about organizing—once you have that information? I find then I have a transcript of the interview, or whatever form—I happen to like having the transcript of the interview—and I’ll underline things and flag things. How do you go about organizing? Do you organize by topic? Do you organize by age group? How—you know—what are the ways that you organize the interviews? It sounds like once you have enough of them, it can be really hard to know how you want to use what information and quotes.

Kate Rope

Yeah, I think, I think the hardest thing is—I think I knew pretty much how I wanted to use everything. The hardest part is, like, the copy editor caught that I said one girl lived in Philadelphia in one area of the book, and then I had her in Denver in the other area. And that’s because she was in a focus group with someone from Denver. And so I can’t say I have the answer to that, because I don’t think I did it really well—but I will do better next time. I basically just—I would, I would screen the transcript shortly after the interview or the focus group, because then it was fresh in my mind, and I could sort of remember, “Oh yeah, I want to...” and then I would just highlight, like, whatever the things were that I really liked. And then I just created one master document with all the focus group quotes, you know, and then...

Jess Lahey

Oh, nice!

Kate Rope

As I’m thinking about—yeah—and then as I’m thinking about the topics—okay, now I’m in the, you know, the chapter on puberty—I’m going to go through and pull out what quotes speak to that. And I use Scrivener. I’m a huge Scrivener fan. I use one percent of what Scrivener offers. I just use the table of contents on the left so I can just plop—so then I would just plop them in there. So that..

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Kate Rope

That was my approach, yeah.

Jess Lahey

I think the reason I ask that question is—I think every single writer has had that moment of, “Oh, I know someone said this really cool thing. Who was that? Where did I file it? Where am I going to find it again? It was in a study, it was on a piece of paper, I know I saw it, it had a red mark on the corner.” You know, all these problems we have with our organization—we’re never going to have, I don’t think I’m ever going to have, the perfect system—but I seem to get a little better at it with each mistake I make.

Kate Rope

Yeah, yeah. I sent—I sent, I sent the wrong quote to one of the focus group participants—to her mom. She was the, you know, the conduit—and she said back, she was like, “Goldie—pretty sure she did not say that in the— they did not say that in the focus group.” And I was like, “Really?” And I went through, and sure enough, it was somebody else. And then I reached out to them—“Oh, yeah, I said that.” Because I’d already checked quotes with them. So that’s another reason for checking quotes.

Jess Lahey

Yeah. I also love the idea of making sure that your subject knows that they will have the right to say, “No, I’d rather—even though I know I said that.” You know, it’s—with a kid, you can’t just say, “Okay, this is an on-the-record, off-the-record sort of situation.” So before, for example, in The Addiction Inoculation, and specifically with kids like Georgia and Brian—the two kids I really featured heavily in the book—they had approval over every single thing that was going to be in the final book. And I think at one or two points, just because I felt really protective of them, I was like, “Are you sure this is how you want to say it? You realize, like, people will read this book.” I think there’s this detachment between, like, the things that come out of your mouth and the fact that it will be out there in public, and I sort of saw it partially as my job to fully make sure they understood the implications and the possible outcomes. And I know you don’t have to go that far, but for me, I felt very protective of the kids and wanted to make sure that ethically, everything was on nice, solid footing.

Kate Rope

Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, the journalism you and I do is not—we are not reporting on politicians who are trying to spin stuff afterward, you know? We’re—we’re telling stories of real people to help real people. So, you know, on the record, off the record, it’s not so—you know, it’s—it’s you have control. And also, obviously, you and I both, like, parent and write from a consent point of view. And so if I’m saying in my book, you know, that a person in a physical interaction can—has—the ability and right to call it off at any time, right?

Jess Lahey

Yep.

Kate Rope

Then the same goes for their participation in my book.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So first of all, one of the things I really loved about this book was the multitude of stories—the multiple angles on the girl experience—and the fact that there wasn’t this one experience that is this monolithic girl experience. I think, especially coming at it from a perspective of someone who is the mom of a kid who maybe doesn’t fit neatly into the box of a, you know, a stereotypical—whatever that is—girl. There’s a lot of ways you can come at this story, and in order to not alienate kids who are not having the experience of, like, whatever it is you want to refer to as a stereotypical girl experience, you have to encompass all of those stories. And I have a lot of respect for the way that you managed to really bring those stories in. So thank you so, so much. As a reader, I really, really appreciated that as well. It just made the book more interesting too, because I have a lot of moments where I’m like, “Oh, that hadn’t occurred to me,” and “That’s not my experience, but cool, now I know what someone else’s experience is.” So the book did double duty for me.

Kate Rope

Well, thank you. That’s awesome. And yeah—and I think, ultimately, as I think about it, like, it’s really about listening, right? Most of what I’m talking about in the book is about listening and letting the person in front of you tell you who they are. You know, that they come into this world with the raw material they need to survive, and this world throws a lot at them. And so how do you just keep them true to that experience—help them develop that sense of themselves? And that goes for, you know, any kind of experience. That goes for learning, you know, that you’re an introvert, and it’s okay if you don’t want to speak up in class. And I have a quote in the book from you, who said—and I loved it—like everyone says, “Here, let’s teach you how to speak up in class,” and you’re like, “That’s, like, one of the most high-pressure places to speak up.” Like, umm...

Jess Lahey

And listen—that was a place that, well, that was a place that I had to come to. It was—that was a painful evolution for me as a teacher, especially because I am an extrovert, and I’m used to teaching to extroverts. And so for me to learn from Susan Cain the way I did, and learn from her book Quiet, and learn from her pushing back on something I wrote once and saying, “Mm-mmm, that’s not how everyone learns. That’s not how everyone shows that they’re understanding what you’re teaching them.” So that was a painful evolution for me, and I do not take credit for just knowing that stuff—definitely...

Kate Rope

Right? Well…

Jess Lahey

That was a hard one for me.

Kate Rope

The world runs on extroverts, right? So, if you—so, if you have an introverted girl, you know it’s a balancing act of completely respecting who she is—celebrating who she is—and then also finding out where you can equip her to operate in the world in a way that helps her, given the world’s expectations. Or understanding the world. You know, in the neurodivergence section, we talked a lot about—and for all these sections—you know, if I was doing a section on, you know, girls of color, or girls with physical disabilities, it was all experts who work in those communities, caregivers whose kids are in those communities, or girls themselves from those communities, because I can’t speak to those experiences. But the people I talked to in the neurodivergence section would talk about how a lot of times parents try to protect them—like, by not telling them about their neurodivergence, or by sort of framing it as a superpower, or not talking about the difficult things. And I think it was Amanda Morin—who’s this awesome neurodivergence and inclusive-schools expert—who said, you know, “We need to teach them about the world’s expectations, not so that they can conform to them, but so that they can understand when they don’t, and advocate for themselves.” So, you know, that’s what this whole thing is about—knowing who you are, understanding a little bit about the world, so that you can be who you are—whether that is, you know, the sex you were assigned at birth, or whether that is living in, you know, a larger body, or all the things. Like, any area where the world is going to try to tack on one more reason a girl isn’t good enough—how do you equip her with, like, real faith and love for who she is? So that was important.

Jess Lahey

Speaking—well, speaking of neurodivergence, did you have to change anything about the way you ran your focus group or the way you did your interviews, based on the fact that you were then interviewing people with neurodivergence?

Kate Rope

No, because they did that for me. They were amazing. I mean, I had one participant who was, I mean, just so eager to share everything. And early on said, “I interrupt. I interrupt all the time.” And then another participant said, “So do I. It’s really hard for me not to. I need to say the thing when I think the thing.” These girls were clearly in families where they had been supported with the right—

Jess Lahey

And empowered...

Kate Rope

Supported and empowered with, like, you know, the necessary school supports or whatever—but also just the understanding of themselves. And so they knew the language, and at one point, the girl who had started off the bat saying, “I interrupt,” and she wanted to show everything in her room, you know, and I just let her go. Like, I wasn’t about—I wanted to see her as who she was. I wasn’t trying to get anywhere specific with the focus group. I really let that go. But at a certain point, she said, “You know what, I can’t stop interrupting, so I’m just going to mute myself, and you’ll see me talking, because I’ll still be interrupting—but I won’t be interrupting.” And I mean, I was, like, blown away. I mean...

Jess Lahey

Wow!

Kate Rope

Just the—in all the groups—the self-awareness...

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Kate Rope

The skills they had developed, you know—and sometimes I would talk to girls who—kids who, you know, had been hurt by their experiences growing up. And I could feel that, but they had processed it. You know, maybe if, from their family of origin, they weren’t getting everything they needed, but I got to them through a mentoring organization where they were starting to get that. And so they were able to articulate what those challenges were and what they wish they had had. So it’s not that they—it was all, you know, rainbows and—and, you know, puppies, but...

Jess Lahey

Well, it sounds like going to…

Kate Rope

But they all had incredible insight.

Jess Lahey

It sounds like going to the kids also through organizations that had given them that opportunity to learn about their empowerment and to give them the language also helped you, because then again, as I said, you didn’t have to—you didn’t have to work quite so hard to help elicit some of the conversations that you needed.

Kate Rope

Right.

Jess Lahey

It sounds like that was a really smart way to go.

Kate Rope

Yeah, these—these kids were in those organizations, in those conversations already. You know?

Jess Lahey

I’ve learned some of the hardest lessons about interviewing when I’m trying to transcribe my own notes. And Tim laughs every single time I do this, because then I hear myself talking too much, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, just shut up. Shut up. Let them talk. What the heck are you doing?” And that—I think that was one of the greatest lessons I had to learn through all of my journalism and through all of my writing these books—is sometimes you just got to shut up. And that’s why I think having these other kids available in the focus groups—brilliant—because they’ll egg each other along, they’ll get conversations going, and you can just shut up and step back a little bit. I love that.

Kate Rope

Yeah, and they’ll—they’ll, you know, in that particular focus group, the one girl who was interrupting a lot, another one was starting to have difficulty with it, and she was so respectful in how she said it. She said, “I feel differently than you do, and it’s hard for me to think when you’re talking so much.” And maybe it was after that that she said, “Okay, I’ll mute myself.” But they were expressing these things to each other in the most kind and direct and empowered ways. But I’m a huge talker, as you can already tell on this podcast, and I do talk too much. And so, I mean, literally every focus group opens with me, like, blathering on about what I’m doing, and then me eventually saying, “You know, I’m going to shut up and you guys talk.”

Jess Lahey

It was also big—it’s a big thing that happened in my teaching, as well, when I let them sort of lead class a little bit more, and I got to step back and just sort of watch them do their thing. I learned way more about them. They learned way more from each other. And it was—it worked all the way around. So, is there anything else you wanted to share with us about the interviewing process for this book? I mean, you have so much experience in interview space, and I love that you’re just talking and talking, because I’m actually learning a ton from you.

Kate Rope

Oh, thanks. That means a lot, because I’ve learned so much from you. I have your book right here. I’ve got my, like—my “best of.” So…it was difficult to—I got men. I did, I did get some dads, but it was difficult. And if I were doing this book again, or if I do a similar book, I’ll really—you know—it’s harder. There aren’t organizations. There aren’t super-active Facebook groups of dads, you know, but it’s growing. There’s a lot more attention paid. And so I will definitely start out earlier thinking about what are the harder people to reach, and I’m going to prioritize reaching out to them. So it’s not like, “Oh God, I got to turn this book in, and okay, I heard from five fathers, and that’s just going to have to be good enough,” you know?

Jess Lahey

That’s a really good point. I’ve actually done a lot of thinking about ways to access more fathers as well. And I was thinking, okay, maybe you could come at it from the influencer angle, or the—you know, that kind of thing. It is tougher, especially in the education space. And there are lots of conversations in education about how do we make it clearer to fathers that they are really and truly invited into education in a way that traditionally it’s just been the moms. And it has been—it’s been tougher, but I think it’s really valuable and really worth doing. So I’m so glad you brought that up.

Kate Rope

Yeah, and as we’re talking about it, I’m thinking focus groups could be really good for that. I mean, it’s hard—it’s hard to get adults available at the same time. It was hard to get kids available at the same time. But it’s—you know, I don’t want to throw men under the bus, but like—like kids, they might do better sparking each other’s ideas...

Jess Lahey

Yeah, absolutely.

Kate Rope

…than having to just make it up from whole cloth when you’re asking them. And, you know, I think people—they get nervous. They think this is like a permanent record, or, you know, it’s like those—you know, those old-timey photographs of people who are like, “This is the record of this moment of our lives.” And so, you know, I did the same thing with caregivers that I— I mean, mostly I did Google Forms with caregivers, but I did interview some on the phone or in person, and I said the same thing to them: “You’re in charge of what goes in this book.” You know?

Jess Lahey

Love it. I absolutely love it, and you’ve written a really powerful book. You’ve written a really wonderful and eloquent book. I’m really excited to be able to take it around and hold it up and say, if you want to read a book about, you know, girls and parenting girls and taking care of girls and raising girls, here’s a new book that I really, really recommend. So thank you so much for writing the book. It was a pleasure to read—it really was.

Kate Rope

Thank you. That means—you have no idea. I mean, just even coming on this podcast is, like I said, leveling up. It’s like, you know, I remember reading and meeting you guys for the first time at Mom 2.0 when my book was coming out, and I had no idea what I was doing. I still think I wouldn’t know what I was doing if I went to a thing like that again. But, like, I’m just not a networker. Worship is a strong word, but definitely looking up to you guys, you know? And listening to the podcast, you know, every episode—and then I’m like, “I’m going to be on it.”

Jess Lahey

Well, if people want to learn more about you, where could they go to do that?

Kate Rope

Yes, my website is katerope.com. I’m on Instagram.

Jess Lahey

A lovely website. I was there just earlier today. It’s a lovely website.

Kate Rope

I am very happy with Booyah Creative—Kayleen Mendenhall, who designed it—@kateropewriter on Instagram. And I have a Substack, Strong as a Human. You’ll find me any of those places.

Jess Lahey

Oh, I love that.

Kate Rope

And Strong as a...

Jess Lahey

We will put you—all of your stuff—yep, we’re going to put the cover in the show notes; we’ll put all the links in the show notes. And I’m just really grateful to you. Thank you so much for taking time to come on the show, and for everyone else, you know how it goes... Until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Scammer's Guide to Writers Oct 03, 2025

THE SCAMS. They’re getting wilder and wilder, and harder and harder to spot up front or even before you hand over the cash, if the scammer is faking a service you’d have to pay for. We’re all getting these endlessly in non-writing life too, the ticket you didn’t get, the recruiter who isn’t one… I had a friend get a VERY real one that looked like it was from her town, about an existing work permit for work they were doing. The tell in that case was that it asked for a wire transfer, and in that town, you wander into town hall, hand them a check and also explain that you really paid that meter but you hit the wrong button for a car on ParkMobile.

One important link we mention: https://wheregoes.com, where you can check any link you’re given to see where it really goes—and you should.

Here’s Rachael’s episode where she reads you her whole scammy letter, and talks about getting so jaded that she almost didn’t open the email from her publicist telling her she’d hit the list: http://www.howdoyouwrite.net/episodes/i-hit-the-usa-today-bestseller-list-and-a-warning

And to sign up for all Rachael’s writerly things (which are EXCELLENT), go to https://rachaelherron.com/write.

Transcript Below!

KJ Dell’Antonia

Kids, I am here today with Rachael and with Sarina. And the reason that I asked Rachael to join us is that on one of the episodes of her podcast, Ink in Your Veins—link in the show notes—she read, in great detail, a letter from a scammer that she almost fell for. And man, I could see why. And right at that exact same moment, Sarina had been forwarding similar stuff, and even since we had that little conversation, the level of opportunities to fall for this stuff has gotten even greater. So this is us recording an episode to help you figure out which of those emails in your inbox are from scammers. You know, spoiler—“all of them”—and how to spot them, how to feel about them, and how not to fall into ye olde traps. So, Rachael, do you want to start? You don’t have to read the entirety of that letter. For that, y’all can go and listen to the episode of Rachael’s podcast. But just tell us a little bit about it. It was so specific.

Rachael Herron

It sure was that was the —first of all, thanks for having me and the and the thing that really chapped my hide about it, as I said in that podcast, is that we do get, you know, as authors whose—I think that our emails should be out there, right? Readers should be able to get a hold of us and you know, a scouting film, film agent needs to know how to find us to give us lots of money. So our email should be out there. And we’ve always got always gotten scam emails, but this one the very first one I got, and since then, have, like you said, have gotten plenty more. Sorry, let me bring it up here. It was about my book, Eliza’s Home, which is actually, it’s not even a full novel—it’s a novella. And the person who wrote it was named Timmy. Just Timmy, may I point out. But he was the founder of “Lit Flare Book Marketing Agency”. And honestly, “Lit Flare Book Marketing Agency”—that sounds pretty great. I mean, that’s actually a good, good name. I would be surprised if that weren’t a real one. And what he did was, yes, he flattered the book. But more than that, he demonstrated that he understood publishing. He—he called me out in a good way. He complimented me for knowing the industry and for being a hybrid writer. And hybrid writer is not a word that anybody who is not inside baseball uses. You know, hybrid publishing is one thing. Hybrid writers are completely different thing. Hybrid writers are people who both self-publish and traditionally publish. He says, you know, and he knew all of the genres that I wrote, including under a pen name that I use. And he complimented that. He complimented the whole world of this book. He taught—and this is the thing—he talked about some things that I had never thought of. This is post-war fiction. It was basically a prequel novella set after World War II in this small town. And he talked about how you could market this novella to people who enjoy post-war fiction.

KJ Dell’Antonia

See—all you’re doing here is making me want to fall into this person’s web.

Rachael HerronI immediately was struck by, “Well, this has to be—it has to be spam, right? It has to be.” But the more I read it, the more closely I read it, I was like, “This person really understands,” and this is not something that he could have found just by scraping Eliza’s Home and all of the information on Amazon, on the Kindle website, right? It wasn’t available. It wasn’t there. But what I think they’re doing—and correct me if you think I’m wrong—but I think that there’s just some, there’s somebody out there either teaching or disseminating this information on how to scrape everything. They basically went and scraped everything about me as a writer from everywhere, and then pitched it toward this book. And it did sound so good, and he did talk about marketing opportunities that I had not thought about. And I thought, “Oh, this person really must know what they—who—you know, they must really know what they’re doing.” So of course, then, because I have been around a while, I started researching. And I Googled his email—absolutely no hits. I looked up… did he have a website at that point? No, he didn’t have a website. “Lit Flare Book Marketing Agency” did have something online, but it was one of those, you know, temporary free sites that had just been built. So of course, it was bam. But the thing that got me so upset is that it’s going to trick people. He will absolutely have people fall for this. They will have people fall for this. “Have you? Have you? I want to hear about what Sarina’s gotten, and KJ, you must have gotten some of these by now.”

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Rachael Herron

What are you all seeing?

Sarina Bowen

So let’s take a step back and just let make sure everybody understands that we’re talking about an email that goes into depth about why your book is great and why it should be read by a wider audience. Rachael Herron

Yes.

Sarina Bowen

And um, I have gotten several of these, and the first one was so horrifically specific to my actual book, except for one huge tell, which is that, um, which is that, um, it was all about, like, here’s the character, and he’s so wonderful, and you’ve got this setup, and it’s so great, and this world that you’ve built is fantastic. And more readers should know about this. It’s a tragedy that they don’t. They were passionate about this idea, and, and, but the thing that was, the problem is they’re like, and it only has two ratings on Goodreads. And the thing is, though, that that book doesn’t—didn’t come out for months. Look, it was a month’s forward in the future publication at that point. So I…

Rachael Herron

Wow.

Sarina Bowen

Knew right away that that person like looked like they were paying attention, but wasn’t really paying attention. So, you know, it says, “So my slightly psycho question: do we let Thrown for a Loopkeep skating in circles with too few reviews, or do we blast it into the net where it belongs—loud, messy, and impossible to ignore?” And then there’s a string of emojis, like it’s just so over the top. And the thing is that for years, you could spot the low-rent pitches. You know, “I want to improve the SEO of your website,” by their horribleness—like by their bad grammar, by their insufficient detail. But now, what I think is happening, even though I haven’t tested this myself, is there are some AI search engines out where you can provide web links, and all you’d have to do is put a link to the NetGalley listing of this book, put a link to my author bio, and put a link to the Goodreads page for this book. And you could scrape so much information about what the book is about and why people might care. And you could scrape so much information about what the book is about and why people might care. And I think somebody has written a prompt that just, like, makes that email easy to write in, like, 15 seconds. It’s like—remember the olden days when there was no spam? And then people started figuring out, like, “Oh, wait, I could send the same message to a million people inside of one day.” And then that was a, you know, an idea that we had to teach our parents what spam was. Well, this is, like, the version 2.0 of that. It’s just—it’s going to be incredibly easy for people to write you emails where it sounds like they’re passionate and they know what they’re talking about, and they just don’t.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And it—it kind of hurts. I—you know, Rachael recorded her podcast pretty soon, I think, after getting this. And, you know, they say lovely things, and then it’s just—it’s not even a little bit real. Like, it’s just great, and it almost—it’s almost painful. And I want to point out that this is—so this is one level of this: the wonderful marketing email you are getting that is specific to you that seems like a great person that’s really going to help you out. The person’s not real. The stuff’s not real. None of it’s real. Another level that I know Sarina has seen lately is basically anything that you have that is publicly available can turn into this. So can you talk a little bit about the trademark ones you’re seeing now?

Sarina Bowen

Ooh, absolutely. I filed a trademark for one of the aspects of my business, which is just, you know, everybody does it—no big deal. And my trademark attorney warned me that the minute we filed, I was going to get junk mail. And it looked so legitimate, because anytime you’re filing anything that is public record—so that’s like a trademark application, that is the filing for your LLC, of your business. If you do that—even just, uh, doing business as an as name—if you file that with your state, you will start to get spam that’s like, “You have to do the following: send in this fee.” And so that’s getting easier. Like, anything that can be automated can be automated to try to trip us up. So writer scams are just going to get bigger and uglier than they have been in the past, and we have to help all of our friends be mindful of this.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So, Rachael, when you were looking into this to figure out if this person was real, can you walk us through some of the things that… and there is no person. That’s—that’s the frustrating thing. Like, we can’t help but say he and Timmy and—and they—but there’s no, there’s—there’s no, no, there’s no Timmy there.

Rachael Herron

There’s no Timmy. That is made up.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It seems so, like, we’re such a small niche, but I guess any niche is big enough now.

Rachael Herron

We’re such a small niche, and people are desperate enough. If somebody only has one book out, and perhaps they have written alone, and they don’t have a community to help them realize this stuff and to tell them that it’s okay—nobody knows how to sell a book. New York doesn’t know how to sell a book. We’re all just trying to do the best we can. These people don’t know how to sell a book. They think, “Oh, I’ve only, I’ve only sold, you know, 50 copies of my book. I need help. And this person loves my book. I’m going to ask them to help me.” Of course, they have all these complimentary things to say. Since I got that first one, I’ve gotten, you know, dozens and dozens. And—and I really, for a while there, I admitted this on the podcast—that I was having too good a time, maybe playing with them just a little bit. And I would write back—because none of them, it’s bad, it’s not good—but none of them had a website link. So I would write back immediately and say, “Oh, I’ve been looking for someone to help me. Do you have a website, though? I can’t really trust anybody without a website.” And then it would be a few hours, and you could tell that they had thrown a website together. So I really kind of enjoyed that I was making them work quite hard to throw this website together. But here’s the thing that’s scarier about that: they know that we’re talking, and that we’re telling newer writers about this. And now, the ones I’m seeing, they have a website that—usually, you can tell by the URL—is not really professional. It is not “Litflaremarketing.com.” It is a “XYZgen.free.site.litflare.movie” or something, you know. It’s just not a real URL. But they also have LinkedIn profiles now for Timmy and his friends. They have—yeah, they have Instagram that they’re claiming, Facebook’s in order to set this up. So you can go, so you can find that they actually do have… well, it’s not an established presence. You can see that they have a presence, but you can tell that it’s not established, and they are not connected with people, and nobody is recommending them. So you can spend time doing that. I think that there are going to be so many of them, that we used to recommend: Google “Lit Flare Marketing Agency” plus the word “scam.” That was fine when there were a few of them. But when there are going to be dozens of them, more—hundreds of them a day being created—that’s not going to give any results. I think that the hard truth, and—and something that, you know, we need to be talking about more, is that mostly, excellent publicists, excellent marketing people who know what they’re doing and who can help sell some books—because they’ve got a lot of time in the industry—are not going to be reaching out cold. They do not make cold calls.

Sarina Bowen

That is right. They don’t.

Rachael Herron

They don’t make cold calls in this industry.

Sarina Bowen

Right. And even this—even filters down to newsletter advertising for books. Which—by which I mean—BookBub is the most famous one, and authors should feel very confident going to submit for an ad on BookBub. And there are some—there’s another, a second tier: Written Word Media does a nice job. Like, there’s—there’s some places. But I get a lot of emails from those, from people that are trying to appear like that: Hey, we have a network of 5,000 readers, and we want to share. And those people are not soliciting you. They are too busy doing their job. So, yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, I think we’re at the point where you have to assume: if it’s in your inbox and you didn’t ask for it, it’s not real.Rachael Herron

Yep. And that goes for famous authors writing…

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh, that’s right; this was another one that you mentioned. This was…

Rachael Herron

I haven’t figured out the angle on this one, but I’ve got about five of them now from famous authors, big names, who are reaching out to me to say, “Hey, you know, I discovered your books, and I’m also an author. Would you like to chat?” And I—and I didn’t. I have not known what to do with them, but with Colleen Hoover, I did play too hard. I went over the line, I wrote back to her. She says, she says, “I love connecting with fellow authors and hearing about the stories they’re working on.” And I wrote back, “Are you published?” And she wrote back, “I am a published author. I’d love you to check out my books.” And then I wrote back, “Good for you. How cute that book looks. I wish you the best with that. I do charge $350 an hour for writing coaching, and I charge by the minute, so you owe me $17 so far. How would you like to pay, and when shall we meet on Zoom?”

Sarina Bowen

That is fantastic!

Rachael Herron

But this scammer—I love this person so much—because they wrote back. It looks like about 14 minutes later: “I just sent the payment.”

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh sure, Oh my god.

Rachael Herron

And I was like, you are amazing. Like this person is now playing with me just as much. And then it then, you know, we never heard from each other again. But that was, that was amazing.

Sarina Bowen

Do you know who would love this story?

Rachael Herron

Who?

Sarina Bowen

Colleen Hoover, because, because she is not afraid to play with people who mess with her—like she would do the exact same thing. “By the way, you owe me $17.” That—really, she would. You know, you two should meet.

Rachael Herron

So maybe it was her—she was saying, “I already sent you the money.” But, you know, and—and in terms of her email, it was like, I can just look at it. It was something that would not fool me, but would fool somebody else. Colleen.Colleenhoover@gmail.com—that almost looks… and all spelled correctly. That is, like, the way her name is spelled. That might fool somebody else. But I’ve gotten, I’ve gotten a bunch of these now. But what are they after? What do you think they’re going to do? I don’t know. I don’t know what the friend’s angle is.

Sarina Bowen

Well…send you a bill, obviously.

Rachael Herron

But yeah, you know what?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Colleen Hoover needs a loan—is actually what I… yea, I have no idea. I have no idea what they eventually ask you for. But, umm…

Sarina Bowen

I love it when I can’t figure out what the scam is. I got one just today or yesterday that was offering to write me a Wikipedia page. And of course, I didn’t engage—I just walked away because I didn’t have time to play with them like you. But I’m like, okay…

Rachael Herron

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

What’s the angle there?

Rachael Herron

What is the angle there? There was one that I—there was one that I couldn’t figure out, because I also have a Shopify store where I sell some of my self-published books. And I kept getting many, many sales. I mean, I’m still getting these many sales of Eliza’s Gift [Eliza’s Home] this novella, because I think it’s the cheapest one there. Many sales to weird names—“Tomize Yourbrothe”—and three or four a day.

Sarina Bowen

I know what those are.

Rachael Herron

And nobody buys this book. Those are—I think they are—somebody fishing credit cards, right?

Sarina Bowen

Yes, it’s credit fraud. They are trying…

Rachael Herron

Like, they’re making sure that the credit card works.

Sarina Bowen

So if you have a Shopify store with a free item in it…

Rachael Herron

I do!

Sarina Bowen

Then you could get, then you could get 1000 of those a day.

Rachael Herron

Oh no! They haven’t tried the… they haven’t tried the free thing.

Sarina Bowen

And also…Rachael Herron

Just the $3.99.

Sarina Bowen

Empty cart is what I’ve heard people complain about. Like, if—if somebody… this is a known scam. If you are really struggling with it, I know some people you could talk to about it. But they will either try to charge through, and if it bounces, like, you—you still owe Shopify, like, a few cents or something like that. There’s some…

Rachael Herron

Oh how rude.

Sarina Bowen

Way in which this is making people’s lives really horrible.

Rachael Herron

Thank you. I will look in—I will look more into that. So, scammer is going to scam, and it is disappointing. And we have to be talking about it more, I think, which is why I think it’s so awesome that you’re doing this particular show.

Sarina Bowen

Well, I appreciate your attitude about it. It’s so great. And I do agree with you. It’s just that the hard thing about talking about this is that we are just living in a different world. And it hurts me to acknowledge that. Like, in 2015, every email that came into my inbox deserved a reply—one, because I was a baby author who needed to, you know, engage with everybody who wanted to email me. And then, you know, life got, like, louder and weirder. And now the truth is, we don’t answer every email that comes in—not even the ones that aren’t scammy. We just can’t anymore. So, um, it’s partly because of what has happened to email, and just partly that this business got busier. But, um—but it’s hard to, like, sit here and acknowledge with you guys that, like, yeah, I’m a harder person than I was 10 years ago. I do not have patience for your little, you know, quasi-scam emails, because not everything is a scam. Like, some people are soliciting for, like, badly—bad outcome businesses—and we cannot sort through all that stuff, because our time is valuable. I mean…

Rachael Herron

And this—this reminds me of something that happened just like that, maybe the next week after I did that show. It was that, you know, when you get these emails, a lot of times they will put the book title in the subject line. So, you know, Abigail’s Shop, Fantastic, can’t wait to… and then you can’t read the whole thing. And one morning, I came, looked at my email, and there were a bunch of them—maybe five or six of them. And at the top it said, The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland: USA Today. And that’s my most recent book. And I’m like, oh, these jerks are now spam—and they have been spamming me on this book in particular. But—but I opened it, and it was from my publicist, who was saying, “You’ve hit the USA Today bestseller list.”

Sarina Bowen

Oh No!

Rachael Herron

And I opened it with such an attitude, ready to hit spam.

Sarina Bowen

Ah…yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Sometimes the good news is real. And also, I guess a nice thing about these is that—unlike, you know—as long as you don’t hit any links, just opening the emails…

Rachael Herron

Opening the emails cannot hurt you—don’t hit the links. I do. I do hit the links. Yeah, I do hit the links—when they, when they… when carefully. I do live dangerously. And I’m—and I’m doing a lot less of it, because I did also have the realization that the more that I play with them, the more I’m training their email delivery system that this is a good email address to send to. So it’s just better to report spam and block. Report spam and block. It’s just not as much fun. And every day I have a weak day—I just had it the other day—where I was like, I just… oh, this was my newest fun thing. I was just in a mood, and I wrote back, “Really?” And they wrote back excitedly. And then I said, “Yes.” And I would just write one word at a time until they stopped. They knew they weren’t going to get anything else from me, but it was really enjoyable.

KJ Dell’Antonia

All right, so I want to go through a list of things people—okay—people can do. But first, Sarina has something to add.

Sarina Bowen

I just want to say that if you ever have an email that’s really confused you, and you’re not sure about that link, there are lots of little websites where you can check a link. Like, WhereGoes.com—you can type in the link you’ve been sent, and it will look at the redirect and tell you where you’re going to end up.

Rachael Herron

Oh, that’s fab... and it’s called WhereGoes.com?

Sarina Bowen

Uh huh. But there’s more…

Rachael Herron

That’s awesome. Yeah, yeah.

Sarina Bowen

You can Google, where does this link go? And then you’ll be shown…

Rachael Herron

Right.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Okay. So that goes on the list.

Rachael Herron

That is very, very smart.KJ Dell’Antonia

So, listen, people, first of all, it’s—it’s spam. It’s fake. I’m sorry. But if you have doubts, look at the email address. If it’s from Colleen Hoover… at Coll—your—what was yours?

Rachael Herron

Mine was Colleen.Colleenhoover@gmail.com.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, so if you see something like Colleen.ColleenHoover or, you know, Colleen.ColleenSnoover@gmail—okay, that’s dubious. Or if it’s from Colleen.ColleenHoover.movie… that’s a red flag. Basically, if it’s a weird sender address, it’s probably wrong. And the same goes for links. If the “Marriott” email is from Marriott.Reservations@guestreservations.com—that’s not real. That’s not actually Marriott. That’s just going to take you somewhere else. Sarina and I were talking this morning about a whole different line of scams, and here’s the rule: if you’re ever tempted to click, don’t—at least not right away. Like Sarina said, you can check it first. Go to a site like WhereGoes.com and paste the link in, or just Google “where does this link go?” to see what pops up. But honestly, the smarter move is to pull yourself out of the email completely. If it’s real—say, “Hi, I’m from PRH and I want this”—then don’t use the link in the message. Just go to the website yourself. Type it in, log in the way you normally do, and see if it’s actually there. It’s the same thing you’d do if you got an email from your bank or your credit card. Don’t click through—go around. Do the thing you know is safe, and then check. And the truth is, most of the time? It won’t be real.

Rachael Herron

But what for—just let’s take a moment with that too. What if an editor at Penguin Random House heard about you from their best friend, read your book, and they really did want to reach out to you? That editor is going to be savvy enough to know that you can—you can go to the Penguin Random House site, look for that editor, and you can even respond to the person you’re worried is a scammer, saying, “I get so much spam, and I’m going to email you from your work address. Is that okay?” And that editor will say nothing but, “Oh, that’s pretty smart. Yeah, I would do that—go ahead and do that.” They understand.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, and just make sure it doesn’t say, you know, “Tara at Singcarlson. Gmail.com,” you know?

Rachael Herron

If it isn’t a Gmail.com, it is spam. Period.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Prob… yeah, probably.

Rachael Herron

A business person will probably not be using Gmail by this…

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, they might not. But there’s the slimmest chance they made a mistake. But again, like Rachael said, find the real emails. I mean, really—if a real editor has emailed you, and the… any email is—call the main number of the publishing house and say, I got an email that says it’s from this person. Can you give me their actual email address? And they will do it.

Rachael Herron

And they will do it.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Be careful out there, kids. It’s so depressing that we are doing this. Although I was telling Sarina my theory this morning, which is that this is going to force us all back offline. Like you’re going to have to read an actual newspaper, because no link you get can you ever be sure it goes to an actual newspaper? You’re going to have to call the hotel or the restaurant to make a reservation, because the restaurants are going to give up, because they can’t fight the bots. And you won’t know if you got a real hotel. You’re going to have to call the theater to make—you know, it’s just… we’re not going to be able to—we can’t have nice things, people. And this nice thing—I think that’s, that’s where it’s going to be. That’s my theory anyway, that would be good.

Rachael Herron

I’ve got, you know—in New Zealand, everyone calls everybody else, and it’s horrifying. I’ve got to tell you, like, it’s just… it’s just assumed. I once had my phone ring, and, of course, I didn’t answer it, because I’ve moved here from America.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Of course!

Rachael Herron

And—and then the second time it rang, I thought it almost might be important. And I think it was—I don’t know who it was, maybe my dentist or something. And when I answered, she said, “I just called you, but—but no one answered.” I know! American—we don’t, we don’t do that. Yeah, right. But yeah, America is now going to be going the New Zealand way.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe—maybe not.

Rachael Herron

Worse things could happen.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Anybody have any last advice for people on the subject of not falling into this?

Rachael Herron

Maybe talk to your friends about it, too. If you’ve got writer friends out there, talk to your pals, because it can be fun to screenshot the most egregious of them and send them back and forth. I mean, it is fun—that is, talk smack about it.

KJ Dell’Antonia

If your mother-in-law has been working on a book for a little while…

Rachael Herron

Uh… Lord!

KJ Dell’Antonia

You know, maybe has reached out to some writer sites, and you might want to just, you know, subtly let some people in your life that might need this information—you might want to try to find a way to pass it on. All right. Thank you so much, Rachael, for coming and talking about this. Thanks for taking the time. Sarina and I are so grateful. We are—all our listeners are. All of the things we talked about today are in the show notes, and all of the information about how to check out Rachael’s podcast—How Do You Write now called Ink in Your Veins—which you absolutely should be listening to if you aren’t already. I’ll put the link…

Rachael Herron

Especially the episode or two with KJ on there.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Oh, well, sure. But also to the episode about hitting the USA Today bestseller list and getting this scam at the same time. Rachael has written a bunch of great books, one of which—the most recent—is The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland. Which… did I get the title right? I hope I did.

Rachael Herron

You did!

KJ Dell’Antonia

Okay... I loved—and Rachael and I are going to be talking about it on a separate episode—but absolutely check her out. She is worthy of your writerly and readerly time. And that’s it from us, kids. So until next week—or until next time—keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

When You’ve Written the Right Scene in the Wrong Place Sep 26, 2025

Here’s this week’s episode, which we accidentally tucked behind the paywall in the first send. Friday #AmWriting is always free—but if you’re already a paid sub, thanks! And if not… maybe now’s the time?

Every draft gets messy. Characters show up too early, reveals happen too late, and suddenly nothing’s where it “should” be. In this episode, Jennie and KJ talk how to tackle the chaos and keep your words flowing.

Episode is free for all and romping through podplayers everywhere. Transcript is below—for paid subscribers only (because they cost $$ to make—thanks for helping us keep them coming!)

(Hearing impaired? Shoot us a note and we’ll work it out.)

Because Free Doesn’t Cover Transcripts

TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell’AntoniaI had written about 13,000 words-ish, and sort of vaguely call it the first five chapters, sort of. I have my loose, rickety Inside-Outline, which gets to the end and becomes almost an only emotion outline, because I’m not entirely sure I know what’s going to happen. I’m not entirely sure how. And, you know, we talked about that, so that’s fine. Like, I’m working—I’m working from that. I’m not working—it’s not like, and next I will write this. It’s more like, here’s the—what—whatever scene I write next, here’s why it has to happen, plot-wise, and here’s why it has to happen, emotion-wise. But it may not be exactly what I outlined. So I’m actually making an outline of what I actually wrote as I write it, which is kind of fun. But then as I’m—so as I’m doing that, and kind of comparing what I think is going to happen to what I’m writing, I realized, after I sent you a big chunk, which we’re partly excited about and partly not—and then it was—it was great—I realized that I needed something. Some things were out of order. Like, I started to write the thing that was the next up in my kind of vague plan, and then I was like, oh, wait. Like, I can’t have—this person can’t be doing this before—or they’re—like, I need—I need—anyway, so I’ve ended up—I went back, but I’m not revising. I’m actually sticking in new things already. So it’s like that 13,000 words is stretching out into, you know, probably 20,000 words as we approach. So I’m still in the world before the big death happens, because there were things... but also, in part, because it was getting too long. Like...Jennie NashYeah. Yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So I needed things—so I needed to move some action. I was like, oh, well, now I’m supposed to have, like, five more things happen before the death. I can’t put another 10,000 words in here. Those things have to go back up. They have to start happening within what I’ve already done. So some of it was that as well.

Jennie Nash

Well, it was super fun to read your pages, because I can just feel the wheels turning, I guess, or the engine of the whole thing. And there were parts of it that felt super assured and like, oh, this is going to be good. And you really know this character now, which is what you’ve been circling around—like, really, who is this and really what’s going on here? And that was so fun to see. It was like, oh, yeah, more of this. This is great. This is—this is going to be good. And then there were other parts, it was like, well, what’s happening here?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, well, that was one of the parts that was like this. That was—it was in the wrong place. It was like; I was trying to do too much sort of introductory throat clearing.

Jennie Nash

So, KJ, I want to stop and ask you a question about something you just said, because you whizzed by it and it’s—it’s like an incredible skill that you have. Where you said something was out of order. It wasn’t that the thing was—what you wrote was not good or not right for the book. It was that you determined it was in the wrong place. And there’s so much that goes into that, like it’s about thought, but it’s also about rhythm and pacing and feel. And I just feel like that’s something a lot of people don’t know how to do. Like, can you talk about that for a hot second?

KJ Dell’Antonia

I can try. Some of this I learned from Sarina [Sarina Bowen], and from reading her thriller draft while she was still working on it, and talking about the process of paying attention to what the reader learns when—both from a thriller... this works—it’s not just from a thriller perspective, it’s also—I think we all have this urge to sort of, like, introduce—like you—when you read Save the Cat and you read all this, there’s—there’s an introductory period where you have to establish that you know your protagonist, everything is going wrong in their home life, their work life, and their emotional life. And the reason for that is—the you know—their emotional flaw. I’m probably mashing together a lot of different systems here. So you learn that, and then, you know, you want to write, like, 30,000 words of what’s wrong with your character and what’s going on—it’s all backstory. And then, you know, maybe you do that, and you realize there’s not enough action in it, and there’s not—you know, you do want the reader to know those things, but they need to know it more gradually. And then you start paying attention in the books that you’re reading to how little you maybe know before things happen, and how much fun it is to figure things out. Even silly things like, oh, you know, why—why are they not going back to their apartment all day? And it turns out to be because their ex was clearing their stuff out of there that day or something like that. But they don’t say that, because that’s not how they think about it. They just think, all right, can’t go back to the apartment, damn it, you know? And I just spilled coffee all over myself. Where am I going to take a shower? Better call this friend. And so your brain is like, wait, why can’t you go back? And so creating—building that—is really hard. And I think paying close attention as you read, and learning to pay attention even as you read for fun to what’s making it fun is kind of what has helped me build that. And again, then watching Sarina build her endings and be like, oh, I gave this up too soon—which is a different process. So I was more—I’m more in the “I took too long to tell you this,” or “I took too long to let this happen.” I worried too much about telling you everything before I let it happen. I’m at that stage—like at the beginning of the book. Things need to happen while you’re telling the reader things.

Jennie Nash

Well, this is so good because what you’re really saying is that you’re not just writing your story—you’re thinking about the reader’s experience of being in your story. I mean, that’s the pro move, right? Is...

KJ Dell’Antonia

I hope so.

Jennie Nash

Doing both things at the same time—like, what—what is the reader going to know? What are they going to feel? What are they going to think? What’s—what’s your question—what’s going to be fun for them?

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah.

Jennie Nash

Such a good question.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah. And this is a multi-protagonist book—or not multi—it’s not—it’s a multi-POV book with one protagonist. So that balance is also really interesting. And I’ve tried to pay attention to how other people do that. But that was part of it—was realizing that’s what that was. The mistake that I was making was—I had—there’s going to be five points of view, but, as I said, one protagonist. And so I had given you two of the other points of view, and one of them—um, Summer—was—was embroiled in the action. Like, I feel like that one in turn—but the other one was too introductory. It was too much this—and so I moved that to after Nate breaks his leg. That’s when we really meet her for the first time. And it’s just very—and it—so it makes things happen faster.

Jennie Nash

That’s so good. That’s so good.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, we don’t need—we don’t need an introduction to her, and we’re not really getting an introduction to any of these other characters other than through the protagonist. You just suddenly get their point of view. And that’s—I don’t know that. It feels modern, it feels fast. We’ll see...

Jennie Nash

Well, and it’s—the other point of view, are there not to tell their own story...

KJ Dell’Antonia

Right.

Jennie Nash

But that’s a structure, but that’s not your structure. They’re there to help—to tell the protagonist’s story.

KJ Dell’Antonia

Yeah, and to help—yeah, they have their own stories, but exactly—exactly. They’re there to tell—I mean, they’re there to help tell the protagonist’s story. But really, they’re also there... they’re there because they need to be there to tell the larger story.

Jennie Nash

Right. Right.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So they’re there for the plot story, but the plot story all is also very intertwined with the protagonist’s story. So—but—but—yeah, so every time—but every time I go to them, it needs to be, why are we here? Like we can’t—I can’t ever just go to that other—that other point of view so we learn what’s going on with that point of view. That’s not why they’re there.

Jennie Nash

Right.

KJ Dell’Antonia

They’re only there if it’s something about the mystery or something about the protagonist.

Jennie Nash

That’s good. That’s a good stress test.

KJ Dell’Antonia

It is, and—and it’s been—I mean, I’m glad I sort of sorted that out so quickly. I feel like in my initial draft of The Chicken Sisters, even though it didn’t have other points of view, it had some extraneous subplots that were just there for the subplot.

Jennie Nash

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you’re on your way. And some of the writing was—was like I said—I used the word assured. It was—I particularly love your writing about—I mean, this book has a lot of—the setting is important. There’s a natural spaces setting that we’re in a lot, and the way you write about that is really good and really puts us there. And it’s clear that you—that you’ve spent a lot of time in that space. You know, like literally walking through snow. That is not a thing I’ve spent a lot—a lot of time doing, and your writing about it really put me there, which was cool.

KJ Dell’Antonia

And that is an interesting—I mean, I’m really enjoying this. But this is actually about something else, or a different person setting. I feel like when you read something like that, if—if you have spent a lot of time in that setting, then you can definitely tell. If it’s not particularly important to the book, it’s not necessarily annoying that maybe somebody got the setting wrong. But sometimes—you know, I was just reading something that I know was written by a writer who does not live in the part of the country that they were writing about, and I suspect never has, because I have lived in that part of the country. And there’s this—this chunk that they wrote about, a particular journey that is common to it, and I don’t—because this is someone I know, I’m not—I’m just not—I’m going vague. But—and as someone who’s experienced that particular journey that is taken within the process of living in this particular place, I’m like, oh, this—clearly this person read about doing this thing on the internet. Like, you can just tell. And it’s painful as someone who’s been there, and it was some of what led me to stop reading the book. But not—not all of it. Not all of it. I could have—I could have tolerated that. And there are plenty of times where you’re reading along and you’re like, okay, I know this person’s not really a vet, but they’ve clearly been in a vet’s office, and this is—it’s fine. Like, it doesn’t matter. I’m happy. It’s working. It’s working for me. So it’s just one element. But it goes on the list, right? If you’re...

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

KJ Dell’Antonia

So I feel like that’s something to be super careful about—is when you’re kind of Googling to see what something’s like is—or maybe to play it down, it might have just been that there was a lot about this particular journey. And I was just like, it is not really quite right. Anyway...

Jennie Nash

I had a funny experience when I wrote my novel called The Threadbare Heart, which was so long ago that I can barely even remember what it was about. But there was—there was a fire, and somebody lost a fabric collection in the fire. That—this was important to the story and to this character. I can’t even tell you why that was so, but I do remember I did a lot of research on fabric collecting—why people do it, what they collect, how they store it—because I wanted to get those details right. And the—now I’m, like, wishing I remembered why—why I landed on that for this character. But the book—the book had to do with what you would take in a fire, basically. And I think I needed somebody with something very physical. I think that’s how I got there. But anyway, I had done all this research, and I quite love textiles in—as a concept. I don’t collect them my own self. I’m not a seamstress my own self. But I like them, and so I did a lot of research. And there’s a whole quilt underworld out there of quilters, and I went down that rabbit hole. But the funny thing is that when the book came out, I got all of these requests from sewing places. Will you come on and talk about your fabric collection? Will you come on and talk about your sewing machines and how your grandmother taught you to sew? And I was like, oh, that was made up. My grandmother did not—I didn’t—I don’t know how to sew. I don’t have that sewing machine. But it was—I was so proud, because it was not just one. It was a lot. I got a lot of requests that people thought this was an expertise that I had. And I was like, look at me!

KJ Dell’Antonia

I love that! Yeah, you did it. You got far enough into—I think there’s—the trick is to get far enough into something that you know a lot more than makes it into the book. And the...

Jennie Nash

Yeah!

KJ Dell’Antonia

Mistake that was made in the thing that I was reading with was that this was a person who had essentially gone, okay, when you’re in California, you get to, you know, Los Angeles from Santa Barbara by taking the 1 [Highway 1], and you see the following things. And therefore I’m going to write those things. But they didn’t—like if they’d driven it 452 times, they might not have mentioned, you take the 1 [Highway 1]. They might have said, you know that—that part where you—you see that one turn-off, and that, my God, that rest stop has been closed since 1982. Like, they might have said something like that. And so you got deep enough to get into that, and the writer that I’m complaining about did not.

Jennie Nash

So interesting. So interesting.

KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, and you don’t see it. You shouldn’t see it. That’s the crazy stuff about this. Like everything else, you don’t—as a reader, as a regular reader who’s not reading from a writer-y point of view—and even when you’re a writer, you should not feel the sausage being made.

Jennie Nash

That is a great place for us to end.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Publishing Nerd Corner: Your Copyright and the Anthropic Settlement Sep 19, 2025

Hey ho, welcome to the Publishing Nerd Corner, where we dive into the more technical aspects of authorship.

Jess here. I love it when Sarina schools me on all things publishing nerdery, so we decided to make it official and create a whole new series. I have a long list of things I want her to explain for us, so stay tuned for more.

In the meantime, our first Nerd Corner chat is a timely episode about the Anthropic case specifically and registering your copyright specifically.

We’re going to discuss:

* The benefits of registering your copyright with the United States Copyright Office.

* The possibility of a settlement in the Anthropic lawsuit, and what that could mean for authors.

* Why copyright registration will be part of any potential settlement.

* How to register your copyright.

* Did your publisher fulfill its obligation to register your copyright?

For more information about the benefits of copyright registration, see the Copyright Alliance

To register your copyright yourself, you’ll need Copyright.gov.

You will also want to read the Authors Guild post about, “What Authors Need to Know About the Anthropic Settlement”

Hit that “play” button and nerd out with us for fifteen minutes!

Transcript below!

EPISODE 466 - TRANSCRIPT

Jess Lahey

Hey, it's Jess Lahey. If you've been listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast for any length of time, you know that, yes, I am a writer, but my true love, my deepest love, is combining writing with speaking. I get to go into schools, into community organizations, into nonprofits, into businesses, and do everything from lunch-and-learns, to community reads, to just teaching about the topics that I'm an expert in. From the topics in The Gift of Failure, engagement, learning, learning in the brain, cognitive development, getting kids motivated, and yes, the topic of over parenting and what that does to kids learning, to topics around The Addiction Inoculation, substance use prevention in kids, and what I've been doing lately that's the most fun for me, frankly, is combining the two topics. It makes the topic of substance use prevention more approachable, less scary when we're talking about it in the context of learning and motivation and self-efficacy and competence and, yes, cognitive development. So if you have any interest in bringing me into your school, to your nonprofit, to your business, I would love to come. You can go to Jessicalahey.com. Look under the menu option “Speaking” and go down to “Speaking Inquiry.” There's also a lot of information on my website about what I do. There's videos there about how I do it. Please feel free to get in touch. And I hope I get to come to your community. If you put in the speaking inquiry that you are a Hashtag AmWriting listener, we can talk about a discount. So that can be one of the bonuses for being a loyal and long-term listener to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. Hope to hear from you.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.

Jess Lahey

Hey, welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. I'm Jess Lahey, your host, along with another host today—this is going to be super fun. We are the podcast about writing: short things, long things, poetry, prose, book proposals, querying agents—we're basically the podcast about getting the work done. I am JessLahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my journalism at The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic.

Sarina Bowen

And I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels, and also a council member on The Authors Guild. And it is in that spirit that we are bringing you a special episode today, which we're calling part of our Publishing Nerd Corner segment.

Jess Lahey

Our favorite stuff.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so publishing nerd stuff. Here we go, and the topic is pretty timely.

Jess Lahey

And juicy.

Sarina Bowen

And juicy. We're talking about why authors copyright their work, what it means, and how it ties into everything going on with the Anthropic lawsuit and potential settlement.

Jess Lahey

So, backing up, could you tell us a little bit about the Anthropic lawsuit, and sort of what it was about, and why everybody's talking about it right now?

Sarina Bowen

Of course. So, Anthropic is an AI LLM, Large Language Model Company, just like OpenAI is the same as ChatGPT. Anthropic are the people who make Claude, but all the AI big companies are being sued right now, including Meta, including Microsoft, or...

Jess Lahey

Google. Google.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, sorry.

Jess Lahey

Not Microsoft.

Sarina Bowen

And also the new one is there's a new lawsuit against Apple. So, basically, everybody who went out and made a big LLM model using stolen, pirated books and articles downloaded from the Internet is being sued variously by different organizations, and it looks like the Anthropic lawsuit might be resolved first.

Jess Lahey

Okay, so what are they being sued for?

Sarina Bowen

They're being sued for a couple of things. First is the wholesale piracy of lots of books downloaded off the internet, and second, for feeding all of those books into their models to teach them how to speak and compose.

Jess Lahey

A while ago, weren't some—I think some—internal memos around the whole Meta thing where, essentially, they acknowledged how much it would cost to purchase legally all of the things they needed to model, do their large LLMs, and they decided, “Wow, that would be a lot of money.”

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jess Lahey

“We'll just steal them.”

Sarina Bowen

We don't want to deal with copyright. Well, specifically, the most interesting internal memos that we've seen have been involved in the Meta case, which we're not really talking about tonight, but yeah, there are some big smoking guns out there. But I wanted to take this opportunity to talk about the practical nature of copyrighting your work, because there's a potential settlement on the table that's taking shape in terms of how authors will be paid some portion of a $1.5 billion settlement from this Anthropic suit, potentially, and whether or not you have a registered copyright on your book is going to matter. So, first of all, in this case, the judge did rule—well, we wanted him to rule—that using these books to train the model was not a fair use situation.

Jess Lahey

Right. They were trying to say, “No, no, this is just fair use.”

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jess Lahey

“We shouldn't have to pay anybody.”

Sarina Bowen

And unfortunately, we don't have a ruling in favor of this concept yet, and The Authors Guild cares very much that it's not fair use and will continue to fight for that. But we instead were ruled in this case something that is actually quite powerful and important to the whole conversation, which is that the judge said that Anthropic downloading all of these titles—these millions of stolen books—from a piracy site was, in fact, illegal and that they are going to have to pay. So the ruling was against them. So now this is a class-action suit, and in a class-action suit, all of the parties in the class—you can opt out if you want to, like if you're an author who would rather sue them individually, you can still do that. But it looks like in defining the class of who is eligible to receive a payout; you're going to have to have a registered copyright. Your copyright will have had to have been registered within five years of publication, and also before they downloaded it.

Jess Lahey

So, to clarify, some of the questions I've seen floating around on the interwebs are about, “Oh, but there was that big list that was published by The Atlantic.” You could go to The Atlantic and just see, and “oh my gosh, I had six titles that were on that list. Does that mean that I'm going to get money for all of those titles?”

Sarina Bowen

Okay, well, that is a great question. And actually, I need to stipulate real quick that I am not a lawyer.

Jess Lahey

Right.

Sarina Bowen

You're a lawyer, and almost certainly I'm going to make an error when I'm speaking on this tonight. I have spent a lot of time listening in meetings about these things, so I feel comfortable enough to discuss it with you tonight. But, um, but I'm going to make a mistake. So you need to check everything...

Jess Lahey

Right.

Sarina Bowen

…when you make your own legal decisions. So wait, what was the question?

Jess Lahey

So the question was about that big list at The Atlantic.

Sarina Bowen

Oh yeah!

Jess Lahey

That was like, what, 5 million titles or so?

Sarina Bowen

Well, that list was taken from a specific piracy site.

Jess Lahey

Right.

Sarina Bowen

But it doesn't know which titles the company actually downloaded, so only the company has that list. So, first of all, that database is sort of handy and interesting, but it is not definitive in terms of this list.

Jess Lahey

So do not count on looking at that list and saying, “Oh, I have six titles there, maybe I'll get a payout for all six titles.”

Sarina Bowen

Right. So, um, but let's—we really need to talk about copyright registration because there's so much misinformation floating around out there. So it's true that if you sit down right now and write something, you already own the copyright for it. So that's powerful—sort of—right? Um, but the point of registering your copyright—and these benefits are right on the Copyright Alliance website. So we're going to link to the copyright website—but, um, one of the primary reasons why people register is because registration is a necessary prerequisite for bringing, for U.S. copyright owners, to bring a copyright infringement suit in federal court. And of course, this is a federal court action, but also because statutory damages and attorneys’ fees can only be sued for if you have a registered copyright. If you just own your copyright without registering it, you can sue for damages. The damages in the copyright suit are pretty hard to prove, or at least quantify. So that is why the statutory part of damages is what is being enacted in this judgment.

Jess Lahey

But Sarina, I have a publisher. Didn't my publisher register my copyright for me?

Sarina Bowen

Well, probably. My newer contracts all say the publisher must register them, and as far as I can tell, those newer contracts, the publisher did. So, yay. But I do have an old contract from about 2014 that only says that the publisher may register it. And guess what—they didn't. So, first of all, you need to see—you can go to a different database, which is the U.S. government copyright database—and look yourself up and see if your book is in there. And honestly, if your publisher was supposed to register you, and they didn't, The Authors Guild would really like to hear from you, because they're sort of looking into this. Suddenly, you know, in the last 10 days, there's a bunch of people who are like, “Oh my goodness, hang on, they didn't actually do it.” So that's something to think about, something to look at.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Meanwhile, because statutory damages are what is going to be paid by this company, that is why the registration—it's not just to make people mad. It's not just to… it's not a gatekeeping thing. It's a legal issue with the settlement. So if you have not been in the practice of registering your copyrights, it's a pretty darn good idea to do that now. It's a completely online process. The site is quite antiquated and not that much fun to work with, and there are some moments in there when you're like, “I don't understand what's being asked of me.” But it's worth taking the time. It costs, I believe, $65 for a single title. They mail it to you at home, and then you have the certificate forever with your copyright registration number, but it's also kept in that database. You are required to deposit a copy—two copies of… well, a digital copy of your book, or two physical ones, and we usually use digital at this point. But totally worthwhile, and all the people who've been slogging it out on the copyright website up till now are probably feeling pretty good about it.

Jess Lahey

Okay, so there's been this settlement, and I don't know yet whether or not my book is included in that settlement because Anthropic has not turned over their list yet, but let's say I'm on it. When can I get my sweet, sweet dollars?

Sarina Bowen

Well, right now there is a really important The Authors Guild blog post about what to do, and we will also link to that, and they, in turn, link to—I think it's the lawyer's website with a form, a contact form—saying, yes, you know, please keep me in your thoughts and send me the email so that when the list is really ready, we can find each other.

Jess Lahey

And another plug for why you should be a member of The Authors Guild, if you qualify to be a member of The Authors Guild, is that The Authors Guild made sure that their authors were included in the class action suit.

Sarina Bowen

Well, just that they're going to hand the names.

Jess Lahey

Yes. Exactly.

Sarina Bowen

Except I actually think that if you have multiple titles, if you have multiple publishers, if you use a pseudonym—there's lots of reasons to go to that lawyer's page and fill it out anyway.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

So, I mean, the worst that can happen is that both The Authors Guild and you have turned in your name, and they'll have to sort out some duplicates. But that is not the end of the world. And I went there, and I'm filling it in as well.

Jess Lahey

The Authors Guild is a great source of reliable, factual information on what is going on with this suit at the moment.

Sarina Bowen

It is, and it's not like… I'm very proud of my work on the council, but it's like a couple of meetings a month. But what's really happening is that the people who work at The Authors Guild—it's their job. It's a bunch of lawyers who are very good at copyright law, and they've been working on this, like, you know, without sleeping practically, for like a year and a half. So, you know, all of these suits are what they're focusing on all day long. And they want to make sure that the greatest number of authors receive the compensation that they deserve, and it's basically like their whole entire lives right now.

Jess Lahey

It's always cool, actually, as a side note, in the annual meetings—I like to attend the annual meetings virtually—and it's always amazing when they give sort of a download of what's been accomplished by The Authors Guild over the past year. So it amazes me, the advocacy that's going on.

Sarina Bowen

It's a lot of suing people who aren't working on behalf of authors and against book bans and things like that.

Jess Lahey

Absolutely, absolutely. Is there anything else that we need to know that's pressing?

Sarina Bowen

Jess Lahey

Go to the show notes. The links will be in the show notes, as Sarina said. Worst case scenario, you go to that lawyer website, law firm website, and you double—you know, you've done it, and so has your publisher. But who cares, whatever, as long as you've done the work. And, in fact, I will, when I write the show notes, be going back and doing the same myself. And you know, this is a moving target. This is not over yet. This is a continuing saga.

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, and it's definitely not like a done deal, like, “Yay, I'm going to be getting a check in the mail next week.”

Sarina Bowen

No.

Jess Lahey

That's not the way...

Sarina Bowen

It's going to take a long time, but there's going to be more of these suits. So, of course, the best time to register your copyright was five years ago. The second-best time is right now.

Jess Lahey

So, go do that. You have a to-do list. You have homework. Go do those things. And thank you for explaining that stuff. And thank you also for working with The Authors Guild. Because I know it's a ton of work. Not only is it a ton of work for you, doing the meetings and all that sort of stuff, but it's hard to go online and see on social media so many people misunderstanding either what this case is about, and you do a lot of clarifying, which is very sweet.

Sarina Bowen

Oh, thank you. But you know what? It's complicated.

Jess Lahey

It is very complicated.

Sarina Bowen

And I am not a lawyer, and I put in the time to understand it. But the truth is, it's hard. We're dealing with some really complicated concepts. IP is tricky, and, you know, I learn a little more every year, but it's hard, and if it confuses you, you are forgiven for feeling that way.

Jess Lahey

So, again, thank you. Go do your copyright thing. Go to the law firm website, go to The Authors Guild website, and just catch up. Catch up on what this is all about. And we will keep you posted in our little nerdy corner here, which I'm really excited about. I have a full page of questions I want to ask Sarina about some of the things that she understands really well about publishing and all of the stuff that goes into it—all these things, especially about independent publishing—that is not a world I'm a part of, but you always seem to have great answers to those questions. So we will be delivering those questions and answers to you in our Nerd Corner. And thank you so much for being with us. And until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Interviewing with Jeff Selingo Sep 12, 2025

Jess here. My guest this week is Jeff Selingo, an author and speaker I’ve admired for a long time. His work on college, college admissions and the transition to work and life in emerging adulthood are essential reads for anyone looking to understand what want and need in higher education and life.

His books, There is Life After College, Who Gets In and Why: A Year Inside College Admissions and his forthcoming book, Dream School: Finding the College That’s Right for You are all essential reads for teens and emerging adults as well as parents of teens and emerging adults. I adore all three, but I wanted to talk with Jeff about a few aspects of his writing: how he created a speaking career, finds his topics, and how on earth he gets people to talk about topics that tend to be shrouded in secrecy behind very high walls (such as college admissions). Check out Jeff’s newsletter, Next, and Podcast, Future U

KJ here, as you probably know, to tell you that if you're not listening to the Writing the Book episodes Jenny Nash and I have been doing, you should be. Jenny's working on her latest nonfiction, and I'm working on my next novel, and we're both trying to do something bigger and better than anything we've done before.

We sit down weekly and dish about everything—from Jenny's proposal and the process of getting an agent to my extremely circular method of creating a story. We are brutally honest and open—even beyond what we are here. Truly, we probably say way too much. And for that reason, Writing the Book is subscriber-only.

So I'm here saying: subscribe. That's a whole 'nother episode a week, and always a juicy one—plus all the other good subscriber stuff: the First Pages: BookLab, Jess’s From Author to Authority series, and whatever else we come up with. (It varies enough that it's hard to list it all.) Plus, of course, access whenever we run The Blueprint—which, I don’t know, might be soon.

That's all I’ve got. So head to amwritingpodcast.com, get yourself signed up, and come listen to Writing the Book. Then talk to us. Tell us—tell us about your book writing and what's going on. We really want to hear from y’all.

Thanks a lot. And Subscribe!

Transcript below!

EPISODE 465 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Howdy, listeners—KJ here, as you probably know—to tell you that if you're not listening to the Writing the Book episodes Jennie Nash and I have been doing, you should be. Jennie is working on her latest nonfiction, and I'm working on my next novel, and we're both trying to do something bigger and better than anything we've done before. We sit down weekly and dish about everything from Jennie's proposal and the process of getting an agent to my extremely circular method of creating a story. We are brutally honest and open—even beyond what we are here. Truly, we probably say way too much, and for that reason, Writing the Books is subscriber-only. So I'm here saying: subscribe. That's a whole other episode a week, and always a juicy one—plus there's all the other good subscriber stuff: the First Page Booklab, Jess' From Author to Authority series, and whatever else we come up with, which kind of varies enough that it's hard to list out. Plus, of course, access to whenever we run the Blueprint, which—I don't know—it’s going to be soon. That’s all I got. So head to AmWritingpodcast.com, get yourself signed up and come listen to Writing the Book, and then talk to us. Tell us—tell us about your book writing and what’s going on. We really want to—we want to hear from y’all. Thanks a lot, and please subscribe.

Multiple Speakers

Jess Lahey

Hey, it's Jess Lahey, and welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a podcast about writing all the things—short things, long things, poetry, proposals, queries, nonfiction, fiction—all the stuff. In the end, this is the podcast about getting the work done. And in the beginning of this podcast, our goal was to flatten the learning curve for other writers. So I am super excited about who I have today. Oh—quick intro. I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The New York Times, The Atlantic and The Washington Post, as you can find the work of my guest there too. So my guest today is someone that I have looked up to for a long time, and someone I use as sort of a—to bounce things off of and to think about how I do my work and how to do my work better. Jeff Selingo, thank you so much for coming to on the show. Jeff is the author of a couple of books that I'm a huge—In fact, I can look over at my bookshelf right now and see all of his books on getting into college, why college is not the end point. He has a new book coming out that we’re going to be talking about—really; it’s coming out real as soon as this podcast comes out. And I’m just—I’m a huge fan, Jeff. Thank you so, so much for coming on the pod.

Jeff Selingo

Just the same here—and I'm a huge fan of this podcast as well. It’s on my regular rotation, so...

Jess Lahey

Oh yay.

Jeff Selingo

I am thrilled, as always, to be here.

Jess Lahey

It's—it’s changed over the years, and now that we have four different, you know, co-hosts, there’s sort of different takes on it. We’ve got, like, Sarina—the business side, and Jess—the nonfiction geek side, and KJ—the fiction side, and Jennie—the nuts-and-bolts editor side. So it’s been really fun for us to sort of split off. But what I wanted to talk to you about today are a couple of different things. Your book Who Gets In and Why is—um , on the podcast, we talk about dissecting other people’s work as a way... In fact, I was talking to my daughter about this yesterday. She’s writing a thesis—what she hopes will be one chapter in a book. And I was saying, you know, one of the things you can do is go dissect other books you think are really well constructed—books that are reaching the same, similar audience. And your book, Who Gets In and Why, I think, is essential reading for anyone who's writing interview based, and specifically nonfiction around attempting to get their arms around a process. And a process that—for you—what I’m really interested about in this book is a process that’s usually, you know, guarded and kind of secret. And no one wants to let you in for real on all the moving parts and how the decisions are made, because the college admissions process is—it’s an inexact recipe. It depends on where you are, it depends on the school, but everyone wants the secret. Like, Jeff, just get me the secrets of how to get in. So how do you approach people who are, in a sense, some ways, secret-keepers and guardians of the secret sauce—to mix metaphors? How do you get those people to agree to be a part of a book—not just to be interviewed, but to actually put themselves out there and to put the sausage-making out there in a book, which can be a huge leap of faith for any organization or human being?

Jeff Selingo

Yeah, and I think it's definitely harder now than it was when I did Who Gets In and Why. I think it's harder than when, you know, other people have been inside the process—whether it's, you know, Fast Food Nation, with the, you know, the fast food industry, which is a book that I looked up to when I was writing, Who Gets In and Why. I think it’s—people just don’t trust writers and journalists as much as they used to. So I think that’s—a lot of this is really trust. First of all, you have to approach organizations that trust their own process. When people ask me, “Why these three schools?” You know, I approached 24 schools when I wrote, Who Gets In and Why, and three said yes. Twenty-one said no. And when I describe the people who said yes and why they said yes, they trusted their own process. And they also trusted me. But the first thing they did was trust their own process.. And so when I heard later on from people who had said no to me—and I would, you know, talk to them, you know, off the record about why they said no—there was always something about their process, their admissions process, that they didn’t trust. They were getting a new, like, software system, or they had new employees that they didn’t really quite know, or they were doing things—it’s not that they were doing things wrong, but that, you know, it was at the time when the Supreme Court was making a decision about affirmative action, and they didn’t quite know how that would play, and so they didn’t quite trust it—and then how that, obviously, would be used by me. So the first thing you have to do is think about organizations that really believe in themselves, because they’re going to be the ones that are going to talk about themselves externally. And then you just have to build trust between them and you. And that just takes—unfortunately, it takes time. And as a book author or a reporter, you don’t always have that on your side.

Jess Lahey

So when—were some of these cold? Like of the 24, were all of these cold? Were some of these colder? Did you have an in with some of these?

Jeff Selingo

I had an in with most of them, because I had been covering—I mean, that’s the other thing. You know, trust is built over time, and I had been covering higher ed for almost 25 years now. So it was just that they knew me, they knew of me, they knew of my work. I had other people vouch for me. So, you know, I had worked with other people in other admissions offices on other stories, and they knew people in some of these offices, so they would vouch for me. But at the end—so, you know, it ended up being Emory, Davidson and the University of Washington. It was really only Davidson where I knew somebody. Emory and University of Washington—I kind of knew people there that were the initial door opener. But beyond that, it was just spending time with them and helping them understand why I wanted to tell the story, how I thought the story would put play out, and getting them to just trust the process.

Jess Lahey

There's also something to be said for people who have some enthusiasm for the greater story to be told—especially people who have an agenda, whether that’s opening up admissions to the, quote, “whole student” as opposed to just their test scores, or someone who feels like they really have something to add to the story. Both of the people who I featured in The Addiction Inoculation and who insisted on having their real names used said, you know, there’s just—there’s a value for me in putting this story out there and finding worth in it, even though for these two people, there was some risk and there was embarrassment, and there’s, you know, this shame around substance use disorder. But these two people said, you know, I just think there’s a bigger story to be told, and I’m really proud to be a part of that bigger story. So there is a selling aspect also to, you know, how you position what it is you're doing.

Jeff Selingo

And there’s—so there’s a little bit of that, and that was certainly true here. The admissions deans at these places were longtime leaders who not only trusted their own process but understood that the industry was getting battered. You know, people were not trusting of admissions. They felt like it was a game to be played. And there was definitely a larger story that they wanted to tell there. Now truth be told—and they've told this in conferences that I've been at and on panels that I've moderated with them—there was also a little bit of they wanted to get their own story out, meaning the institutional story, right? Emory is competing against Vanderbilt, and Davidson is a liberal arts college in the South, when most liberal arts colleges are in the Northeast. So there was a little bit of, hey, if we participate in this, people are going to get to know us in a different way, and that is going to help us at the end—meaning the institution.

Jess Lahey

Do you have to? Did you? Was there a hurdle of, we really have, you know, this is some PR for us, too. So did that affect—I mean, there’s a little bit of a Heisenberg thing going on here. Did the fact that you were observing them change, you think, anything about what they did and what they showed you?

Jeff Selingo

It's an interesting thing, Jess. It’s a great question, because I often get that. Because I was—you know, originally, I wanted to do one office. I wanted to be inside one institution. And when all three of them kind of came back and said, yes, we’ll do this—instead of just choosing one of them—I thought, oh, this is interesting. We have a small liberal arts college. We have a big, private urban research university. We have a big public university in the University of Washington. So I wanted to show—kind of compare and contrast—their processes. But that also meant I couldn’t be in one place all the time. There’s only one of me, and there’s three of them, and they’re in different parts of the country. So clearly I was not there every day during the process. And somebody would say to me, oh, well, how do you know they’re not going to do X, Y, and Z when you’re not there? And I quickly realized that they had so much work to do in such a short amount of time that they couldn’t really—they couldn’t really game the system for me. After a while, I just became like a painting on the wall. I just was there. And in many cases, they didn’t even notice I was there—which, by the way, is where you want to be—because they would say things, do things, without realizing sometimes that a reporter was present. And there’s the opening scene of the book, which is just a fantastic—in my opinion, one of my favorite scenes in the book—right where they’re talking about these students and so forth, and in a way that is so raw and so natural about how they did their work. If they knew I was in the room at that point—which of course they did—but if they really perceived my being there, that would have been really hard to pull off.

Jess Lahey

Did they have, did you guys have an agreement about off the record moments or anything like that? Or was there and speaking of which, actually, was there any kind of contract going into this, or any kind of agreement going into this?

Jeff Selingo

I basically told them that there would be no surprises. So everything was essentially on the record unless they explicitly said that, and that was usually during interviews, like one-on-one interviews. But while I was in the room with them, there was really nothing off the record. There couldn't be because it was hard to kind of stop what they were doing to do that. The only thing I promised was that there would be no surprises at the end. So when the book was done, during the fact-checking process, I would do what The New Yorker would do during fact-checking. I wouldn’t read the passages back to them, but I would tell them basically what’s in there, in terms of it as I fact-checked it. And so they really kind of knew, for the most part—not word for word—but they kind of knew what was in the book before it came out.

Jess Lahey

I like that term—no surprises. It’s a real nice blanket statement for, look, I’m not looking to get—there’s no gotcha thing here.

Jeff Selingo

There’s no gotcha, exactly...

Jess Lahey

Right. Exactly.

Jeff Selingo

This was not an investigative piece. But there were things that, you know, I’m sure that they would have preferred not to be in there. But for the most part, during the fact-checking process, you know, I learned things that were helpful. You know, sometimes they would say, oh, that’s an interesting way of—you know, I would redirect quotes, and they would want to change them. And I said, well, I don’t really want to change direct quotes, because that’s what was said in that moment. And then they would provide context for things, which was sometimes helpful. I would add that to the piece, or I would add that to the book. So at the end of the day—again—it goes back to trust. And they realized what I was trying to do with this book. It’s also a book rather than an article. Books tend to have permanence. And I knew that this book would have, you know, shelf life. And as a result, I wanted to make sure that it would stand the test of time.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about your new book—your book that's just coming out as this is getting out into the world—called Dream School. And by the way, such a great title, because one person’s dream school is not another’s. But like, my daughter happens to be at, I think, the perfect school for her, and my son went to the perfect school for him—which, by the way, wasn’t even his first choice. And in retrospect, he said, I’m just so glad I didn’t get into that other place—my, you know, early decision place—because this other place really was the perfect match. And I think that’s why I love that title so much, because I spend a lot of time trying to help parents understand that their dream may not necessarily be their child’s dream. And what makes something a dream school may, you know—in fact, in terms of time—my daughter was applying to colleges just coming out of COVID. Like, she had never been to a school dance. She’d never—you know—all that kind of stuff. So for me, the dream looked very different than maybe it would have four years prior, thinking I was going to have a kid that had the opportunity to sort of socially, you know, integrate into the world in a very different way. So I love that. And is that something that—how did—how do your ideas emerge? Did it emerge in the form of that idea of what is a dream school for someone? Or—anyway, I’ll let you get back to...

Jeff Selingo

Yeah. So, like many follow-up books, this book emerged from discussing Who Gets In and Why. So I was out on the road talking about Who Gets In and Why. And I would have a number of parents—like, you know when you give talks, people come up to you afterwards—and they say, okay, we love this book, but—there's always a but. And people would come up to me about Who Gets In and Why, and they would be like, love the book, but it focused more on selective colleges and universities. What if we don’t get into one of those places? What if we can’t afford one of those places? What if we don’t really want to play that game, and we want permission? And this—this idea of a permission structure came up very early on in the reporting for this book. We need to be able to tell our friends, our family, that it’s okay, right? You know how it is, right? A lot of this is about parents wanting to say that their kid goes to Harvard. It’s less about going to Harvard, but they could tell their friends that their kid goes to Harvard. So they wanted me to help them create this permission structure to be able to look more widely at schools.

Jess Lahey

I like that.

Jeff Selingo

So that's how this came about, and then the idea of Dream School—and I’m fascinated by your reaction to that title. Because the reaction I've been getting from some people is—you know—because the idea, too many people, the idea of a dream school, is a single entity.

Jess Lahey

Of course.

Jeff Selingo

It’s a single school; it’s a single type of school. And what—really, it’s a play on that term that we talk about, a dream school. In many ways, the dream school is your dream, and what you want, and the best fit for you. And I want to give you the tools in this book to try to figure out what is the best match for you that fulfills your dreams. It’s kind of a little play on that—a little tweak on how we think about the dream and dream school. And that’s really what I’m hoping to do for this book—is that, in some ways, it’s a follow-up. So you read Who Gets In and Why, you decide, okay, maybe I do want to try for those highly selected places. But as I tell the story early on in in Dream School. A. It’s almost impossible to get into most of those places today—even more so than five or six years ago. And second, many of the students that I met—young adults that I met in reporting Dream School—ended up at, you know, fill-in-the-blank: most popular school, brand-name school, highly selective school, elite school—whatever you want to put in that blank—and it wasn’t quite what they expected. And so that’s another story that I want to tell families in this book—is that, hey, there’s a wider world out there, and there is success to be had at many of these places.

Jess Lahey

There's something I say occasionally, that I have to take the temperature of the room, just because I—you know, you and I speak at some fairly similar places, like, you know, the hoity-toity private schools that—you know, everyone's just go, go, go, do, do, do, achieve, achieve, achieve. And every once in a while, I like to insert—I like to, number one, tell them that my college was, I think, perfect for me. I went to my safety school. I went to the University of Massachusetts and had an extraordinary experience. But I'm a very certain kind of person, and maybe for another—like, for example, my daughter, when we were looking at schools, our state school was just too big for her. It just—she was going to get lost. It wasn't going to work very well. But the thing I like to say when I can, when I feel like the audience is ready to hear it is: What if it’s a massive relief if you don’t have an Ivy kid? If you have a kid who’s not going to get into an Ivy school, isn’t it a relief to say that’s not what we’re aiming for here, and we can actually find a place that’s a great fit for my kid? And that sometimes goes over really well. For a few people, they’ll come up and thank me for that sort of reframing afterwards. But for some people, that is just not at all what they want to hear.

Jeff Selingo

And it's—you know, it's really hard. And I think you go back to audience, and—you know—most people make money on books kind of after the fact, right? The speaking, as you mentioned, and things like that. And it's interesting—this book, as I talk to counselors about it, high school counselors—oh, they're like, this is perfect. This is the message I've been trying to get through to parents. Then I talk to the parents—like, I'm not quite sure this message will work in our community, because this community is very focused on getting into the Ivy League and the Ivy Plus schools?

Jess Lahey

Yes, but that’s why your title is so brilliant. Because if you're getting—and I talk a lot about this, I don’t know if you’ve heard, I’ve talked about this on the podcast—that with the substance use prevention stuff, it’s hard for me to get people to come in. So I use The Gift of Failure to do that, right? So you've got this title that can get the people in the seats, and then you, in your persuasive and charismatic way, can explain to them why this is a term that may—could—use some expanding. I think that's an incredible opportunity.

Jeff Selingo

And it's important, too—early on, my editor told me, “Jeff, don’t forget, we’re an aspirational society.” And I said—I told, I said, “Rick,” I said, “I’m not telling people not to apply in the Ivy League. I’m not saying they’re terrible schools. I’m not saying don’t look at those places.” All I'm saying is, we want to expand our field a little bit to look more broadly, more widely. So we're not saying don't do this—we’re saying, do “do” this. And that's what I'm hoping that this book does.

Jess Lahey

Well, and the reality is, people listen to the title. They don’t read the subtitle, because subtitles are long, and they have a great use—but not when you’re actually talking about a book with someone. And so what they’re going to hear is Dream School, and I think that's a fantastic way to position the book. But since you opened up the topic, I also—I am right now mentoring someone who is attempting to sell a book while also planning for a speaking career, which, as you know, is something that I did concurrently. How did you—did you know you wanted to do speaking when you were first writing your books? Or is this something that sort of came out of the books themselves?

Jeff Selingo

It just came out of the books. You know, the first book, which was College (Un)bound, which was 2012, sold better than I expected, but it was aimed at a consumer audience. But who ended up reading that were college leaders, presidents and people work at colleges. So I had a very busy schedule speaking to people inside the industry. Then I turned my—you know, the second book, There Is Life After College— really turned it to this parenting audience, which was a very new audience to me, and that really led to me to, you know, Who Gets In and Why, and now this book. The difference—and I’m always curious to talk to parenting authors like you—is that college, you know, people—even the most aspirational people in life, I understand, you know, people in certain cities think about preschool, what preschool their kid’s going to get into to get into the right college—but in reality, they’re going to read a college book when their kids are in high school. And that is the more challenging piece around, you know, I—unlike most parenting authors who have a wider audience, because a lot of the issues that face parents face parents when they have toddlers, when they have pre-teens, when they have teens. Obviously, some parenting authors just focus on teens, I get that.

But this book really has kind of a short life in terms of the audience. And so what we’re trying to do—so think about it: Who Gets In and Why— it's still in hardcover. Has never been published in paperback, largely because there's a new audience for it every year, which is fantastic...

Jess Lahey

Yeah, I was going to mention that. That is the massive upside. And for me, it's usually a four-year sort of turnover in terms of speaking anyway.

Jeff Selingo

Yeah, you’re right. And so the nice thing on the speaking front is that I have almost a new audience every year, so I could continue to go back to the same schools...

Jess Lahey

Right.

Jeff Selingo

...every year, which has been really helpful—with a slightly different message, because the industry is also changing, and admissions is changing as a result. So, no, I—the speaking came afterwards, and now I realize that that's really kind of how you make this thing work. I couldn’t really have a writing career without the speaking piece.

Jess Lahey

Since figuring that out—and I guess assuming that you enjoy doing it, as I hope you do—is that something that you’re continuing to market on your own?

Jeff Selingo

Yes. So that’s what we’re doing. You know, one of the big changes from the last book is that we have developed a—you know, we built a customer relationship management system under our newsletter. So we use HubSpot, which is, you know, like Salesforce. It's something like that And so we’ve now built a community that is much stronger than the one that I had five years ago. That’s a community of parents, of counselors, of independent counselors. So we just know so much more about who we serve, who our readers are, and who will ask me to come speak to their groups and things like that. So that, to me, has been the biggest change since the last book compared to this book. And it has enabled us—and it’s something that I would highly encourage authors to do. I don’t think they have to go out and buy one of these big, robust systems, but the more you know about your readers and build that community, the more that they’re going to respond to you. They really want to be with you in some way. They want to read your books. They want to come to your webinars. They want to listen to your podcasts. They want to see you speak. They want to invite you to speak. And building that community is incredibly important to having that career, you know, after the book comes out.

Jess Lahey

It's also for marketing purposes. So Sarina Bowen—again, brilliant at this. he way she does that is, she slices and dices her mailing list into all kinds of, like, where the reader came from—is this someone who's, you know, more interested in this, did I—did I meet them at this conference, you know, how did I acquire this name for my list? And she does a lot of marketing very specifically to those specific lists, and that information is amazing. And I think so many of us tend to think just—and I have to admit that this is where I spend most of my time—is just getting more emails in your newsletter. Owning, you know, the right—because it’s an honor of being able to reach out to those people and have them be interested in what you have to say. But that’s your—I may have to have you come back to talk specifically about that, because it’s increasingly—as we’re doing more of the marketing for our books—I think that’s the future for people who want to keep things going.

Jeff Selingo

And that's—you know, that is the reality today. That's why proposals sell. Because people—you know, publishers really want people with platforms. And if you're not a superstar, there are very few of those out there, you need to figure out another way to build that platform. And so marketing yourself is critically important, and I've learned that from book one. You know, people would say, “Well, you're always just selling your book.” And I said, “Well, if I don't sell it, no one else,” right? So at some point, the publisher—you know, there's only so much the publisher is going to do. And they don't really have the tools that you do. And more than that, Jess, like, you understand your audience. Sarina understands her audience, right? Like, we understand our audiences in ways that publishers, who are doing, you know, dozens and dozens of books a year, just don't get.

Jess Lahey

Right. No, absolutely.

Jeff Selingo

Like, no offense against them. I think they're doing really good work. But it's just—it’s hard for them, I think, to really understand, well, who's going to really read this book?

Jess Lahey

And I love the idea of using the questions you get. As you know, I tend to take the questions that I get and turn them into videos or—and I do answer all the emails—but I keep a spreadsheet of what those questions are so that I can slice and dice it in various ways. And they’re fascinating. And that shapes like, oh wow, I had no idea so many people—like, I had no idea that so many kids were actually interested in knowing whether or not the caffeine—amounts of caffeine that they're drinking—are healthy, or how to get better sleep. Because if you ask their parents, they’re like, “Oh no, they don’t care about sleep,” or, “They just drink so much coffee and they don’t care.” And yet what you hear from the kids is such a different story. And the thing that I also love is the idea of, you know, what that dream school concept means to the actual kid applying. You’ve probably heard this before, but I needed some symbolic way to let my kids know that this was not, in the end, my decision, and how important this decision was for them in terms of becoming adults. And so I said, the one thing I will never do is put a sticker for a school on the back of my car. Because your choice of where to become a young, emerging adult is not—I don't—that's not my currency to brag on as a parent. It's too important for that. And so people go nuts over that. They're like, “But that’s what I really want—is that sticker on the back of the car!” And so I have to be careful when I talk about it, but for my kids, that was my one symbolic act to say, this is about your growth and development, and not my bragging rights. And I think that’s a hard message.

Jeff Selingo

I think that's really important—especially, I have two teens at home. And I think this is a whole topic for another conversation around, you know, most parenting authors are also parents at the same time that they're doing this—advice out to everybody else. And I—I’m very aware of that. I'm also very aware of the privacy that they deserve. And so that’s an—it’s a fine line. It’s a hard line to walk, I will say, for authors, because people—they want to know about you. And they ask you a lot of questions—like, especially around college—like, “Well, where are your kids applying? Where are they going to go?” Like, “Oh, I bet you—especially this book, where I’m encouraging parents to think more broadly—well, you're probably giving that advice to everybody else, but you're not going to follow that, surely, right?” So it's—you just have to—it’s hard when you’re in this world that you're also part of every day.

Jess Lahey

It’s really tough. And things have gotten a lot more complicated—as listeners know, I have a trans kid, and that means that everything that I’ve ever written about that kid is out there. Some of it changeable, a lot of it—most of it—not. And would I do it again? I don't—I don't think so. And that—you know, that’s been a journey. But it’s also been—you know, we can’t know what we don’t know. I don't know—it’s a tough one. But I really admire your—that’s why I throw my safety school thing out there all the time. I'm like, “Look, you know, I went to the place that saved my parents a boatload of money and allowed me to do stuff like traveling that I never would have had the ability to do if I hadn't gone to my state school. And my priorities were big, and adventures, and lots of options.” And I’m very, very clear that standing up for myself was something that I wanted to learn how to do more. On the other hand, that’s not been the priority for both of my kids, so... Can I just—I want to ask one quick college question, just because it’s—in reading all of your books, this comes up for me over and over again. How do you help parents see the difference between their dream and their kid’s dream—or their goals and their kid’s goals? And how do you dance that line, which I think is a very easy place to lose readers, lose listeners, because they just shut down and they say, “That’s not something I want to mess with. This is too important to me.”

Jeff Selingo

It's a fine line. It's a difficult line to walk. At some point I have to realize who’s the you that you're speaking to. And I even say this in the introduction of the new book—it's largely parents. They're the readers. I know that—I hope their kids will read it. Maybe—maybe they will, maybe they won't, and maybe they'll read it as a family. But I'm really speaking to the families, and I want them to understand that college especially is an emotional good. It's something many of us—you’re talking about your undergraduate experience. I'm not going to ask you how long ago that was, but my undergraduate experience...

Jess Lahey

I'm 55. So it's been a long time ago.

Jeff Selingo

And I'm 52, right? So same here. But we have this—you know, most people, because of the audiences I tend to speak to, they're not first-generation students, right? They're mostly parents. You know, most of the parents in the audience went to college themselves, and for many of them it was a transformative experience, like it was for me.

People met their—they met their lifelong friends, they met their partners, they decided what they wanted to do in life. It was— it was this experience we all think it is. And as a result, I think a lot of parents put that then on their kids. “Well, this was a transforming experience for me, so it definitely has to be a transformative experience for you. Oh, and by the way, these are all the mistakes I made in doing that. I want to make sure you don't make any of those.”

Jess Lahey

And, by the way, no pressure, but this is going to be—this is where you're going to meet your best friends, your spouse. It's the best years of your life, so don't sacrifice even a second of it.

Jeff Selingo

Yeah. And then I...

Jess Lahey

No pressure.

Jeff Selingo

No pressure. And not only that, but it is—it is something we bought a very long time ago. I'm always amazed when—sometimes we go to the Jersey Shore on vacation, and I'll be out on a walk on the beach in the morning, and I'll see people wearing, you know, college shirts, sweatshirts. And, you know, some of these people are old—much older than I am. And I say, “Oh”—you know, we'll start to have a conversation, and I'll say, “Oh, so does your grandkid, you know, go to X school?” Terrible assumption on my part, I know. But they say, “No, that's where I went.” And it's amazing to me—these are people in their 70s and 80s—because I’m the only other person out that early walking—and they love this thing so much that they're still kind of advertising it. But it was so different back then. And that's the thing that I—going back to your question—that's the thing I try to explain to parents. You can guide this. You can put guardrails up. You might have to put guardrails up about money and location and all that other stuff. But college has changed so much that—don’t try to make this your search. You had your chance. You did your search. It worked out. It didn’t work out. You would have done things differently. I think that’s all great advice to give to your kids. But this is their life. This is their staging ground. They have to learn. And again, it's also different. Like, part of what I hope my books do is to try to explain to people—who, you know, kind of dip in and dip out of higher ed just when their kids are applying—that it’s very different than when they applied and went to college.

Jess Lahey

The thing I like to mention a lot is that people in admissions read so many applications that they can tell when something is sincere and something is personal and smacks of a kid, as opposed to when something smacks of a parent. That is a very different application. It's a very different essay—which is the thing that I guess I have the most experience with. But—so I am just so incredibly grateful to you for this book. I'm so grateful that there's evidence that people will actually agree to be interviewed, even in thorny situations like college admissions, which—I don't know. I'm still in awe of the fact that you got anyone to say yes. But—and I heavily—I heartily, heartily recommend Dream Schoolto anyone who's listening. I just—I don't even have anyone applying to college, and I think it's just a fascinating topic, because the idea of where we become who we're going to be, and how we prime lots of other stuff that's going to happen later on in our life—I think that's a fascinating topic. So thank you so much for writing about it. Thank you for writing about it with such empathy and such interest. That's the other thing—is you can tell when someone really is interested in a topic when you read their book. And thank you for providing a book that I recommend all the time as a blueprint—as a dissection book—for people writing nonfiction, heavily interviewed nonfiction. So thank you, so, so much. Where can people find you if they want you to come speak, if they want you—if they want to find your books—where can people find you?

Jeff Selingo

Pretty simple. Jeffselingo.com is my website, and you can also follow me on most social—handle is @jeffselingo, as in Jeff. And I just love hearing from readers. As you know, books change lives, and I love hearing the stories when readers tell me they read something in a book and they acted on it. It's just the most beautiful thing.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, it's the best. I get videos occasionally; too, of like little kids doing things their parents didn’t think they could do. And—“Look! Look! They did this thing!” It's just—it's an amazing and place of privilege. You have a newsletter also…

Jeff Selingo

I do. Called Next. It comes out twice a month.

Jess Lahey

It's Fantastic!

Jeff Selingo

Oh, well, thank you. And I have a podcast also called Future U— that’s more around the kind of the insider-y nature of higher ed and how it works. But a lot—I know a lot of families listen to it to try to understand this black box that is college. So that's called Future U as in U for university.

Jess Lahey

The reason I love the podcast so much is, a lot of what parents get exposed to when they're doing the college admissions process are those graphs—scatter graphs of like, where do your numbers intersect with the expectations of this school—and it's a real human version of that. It's a human version of how that black box operates.

Jeff Selingo

And at the end of the day, as I always remind parents, it's a business. You might have this emotional tie to college, but if you don't—if you don't—and you know a mutual friend of ours, Ron Lieber, who writes for The New York Times around...

Jess Lahey

He's the best! The best!

Jeff Selingo

College finances, right? He always reminds people of this too. I don't remind them as often as he does, and I probably should. It’s this—you’re buying a consumer product. And you have to act as a consumer. Yes, you can have an emotional tie and a love for this place, but this is a big purchase, and you have to approach it like that.

Jess Lahey

Did you see his most recent piece about, yeah, taking some time and seeing—seeing what kind of offers you can get? I loved it. I love Ron’s approach to—he’s just a great guy. And his books are fantastic. Thank you again, so much. I'm going to let you get on with your day, but I'm always grateful for you. And good luck with the launch ofDream School.I will be out applauding on pub day for you.

Jeff Selingo

Appreciate it. Thank you, Jess.

Jess Lahey

All right, everyone—until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output—because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Beauty in Writing About Tragedy Sep 05, 2025

Guests:

* Rossana D’Antonio – Author of 26 Seconds: Grief and Blame in the Aftermath of Losing My Brother in a Plane Crash

* Marty Ross-Dolen – Author of Always There, Always Gone: A Daughter’s Search for Truth

Two authors, Rossana D’Antonio and Marty Ross-Dolen, each faced the unimaginable loss of loved ones in separate plane crashes decades apart. Their grief led them to write powerful memoirs—Rossana’s 26 Seconds and Marty’s Always There, Always Gone—that explore truth, healing, and the lasting impact of tragedy. In an extraordinary coincidence, both books were released in the same week, a situation that could easily spark feelings of rivalry or jealousy between writers. Instead, their shared experience created a bond as they connected over loss, resilience, and the courage it takes to turn pain into story. This episode dives into that connection, exploring not only grief but also the unexpected solidarity found in telling similar stories side by side.

Hey everyone, it's Jenny Nash. This episode happens to feature an Author Accelerator book coach. Author Accelerator is the company I founded more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. If you've been curious about what it takes to become a successful book coach, which is to say, someone who makes money, meaning, and joy out of serving writers, I've just created a bunch of great content to help you learn more. You can access it all by going to bookcoaches.com/waitlist. We'll be enrolling a new cohort of students in our certification program in October, so now's a perfect time to learn more and start making plans for a whole new career.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 464 - TRANSCRIPT

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone. It's JennieNash. This episode happens to feature an Author Accelerator book coach. Author Accelerator is the company I founded more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. If you've been curious about what it takes to become a successful book coach, which is to say someone who makes money, meaning and joy out of serving writers. I've just created a bunch of great content to help you learn more. You can access it all by going to book bookcoaches.com/waitlist. That's bookcoaches.com/waitlist. We'll be enrolling a new cohort of students in our certification program in October, so now’s a perfect time to learn more and start making plans for a whole new career.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone. I'm JennieNash, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we talk about writing all the things, short things, long things, fiction, nonfiction, pitches and proposals. Today I'm here to talk with two writers who I brought together because of a very interesting coincidence; each of these writers recently published a memoir about a plane crash. They each lost somebody that they love in a plane crash, and they wrote a story about their search for understanding and their search for healing and what it all means to their lives. These two books are really different stories, which I think is so interesting and says so much about the creative process. And what's remarkable is that these two books were published just one week apart, and these two writers became aware of each other's books and became friends. I happened to have a connection to each of these writers. At several points throughout her writing process, I coached Rossana D’Antonio including the very first time she came into a classroom to write about this story. Her book is called 26 Seconds: Grief and Blame in the Aftermath of Losing My Brother in a Plane Crash. Marty Ross-Dolen is the other author. Her book is called Always There, Always Gone: A Daughter's Search for Truth. Marty is a writer who came into my Author Accelerator book coach certification program to study how to become a book coach, and that's when I became aware of her and her story. In this conversation, Marty and Rossana come together with me to talk about grief, writing, jealousy and so many of the things that make memoir such a difficult and challenging genre to write and also such a satisfying one. I can't wait for you to listen. So let's get started. Welcome Rossana and Marty. I'm so excited to have you both here today to talk about this incredible topic. And before we get going, we are talking just days after there was a terrible plane crash in India in which a lot of people died and one man walked away, and there's a plane crash at the center of both of your books. And I just wanted to start by asking, how do you feel when this happens as it happens so many times, you know, are you okay as we sit here today? Or does this weigh on you? What is it? What is it like to sit here today? So maybe we'll start Rossana with you.

Rossana D’Antonio

Okay, well, thanks, Jennie, for inviting me on your podcast. It's really exciting to be here and to share, you know, this podcast with Marty. And, yeah, I mean, I, I agree with you. It's really, I mean, I think our memoirs—it's just so timely that they're out during this time because it's, you know, it's not just Air India. We've had several incidents within the last several years, actually, that have brought to light the strain in the aviation industry. It's been, it's been really interesting because, as it seems like there's not a day that goes by that there isn't something in the news with regards to plane crashes or plane incidents, near misses, whatever it may be. But as we experience each incident, and it becomes breaking news, and you know, we're witnessing it on live TV, it is, it is hard not to relive the experience. And I'm—I'll speak for myself—it is hard for me not to relive the experience. And in the book, I kind of talk about it because I say that it's kind of like we belong to this group that we never asked to be part of and this group is made of families of the victims of plane crashes. And, you know, the very first images that you see are of the grieving families and the pain and the grief that is stamped on their faces, the shock of it all. Plane crashes are so dramatic and so violent that it's hard not to get caught up in the whole story, and it's hard not to think of the families and want to comfort them, knowing that their hell is just starting, and all the things that they're going to have to go through, you know, with regards to the aftermath, the investigation, recovering their loved ones and their loved ones' belongings. So it is hard, but I try to, I try to focus on hoping that their recovery or their healing—the sooner they face the disaster, the tragedy—their healing can actually start.

Jennie Nash

It's got to be so hard. We'll, we'll return to all of these topics again. But Marty, you’re... what are your thoughts?

Marty Ross-Dolen

I echo what Rossana says about how—first, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you. I echo, and I love being here with Rossana, and I echo what she says as well. When I see some sort of headline or announcement that an airplane accident has taken place, my heart sinks. My stomach sinks. I know that I'm going to be in it for a couple of days, if not longer, and nowadays, with social media and the immediacy of information—and for the first time, with this devastating Air India crash, and part of it is because there was a survivor—we have information that we've never had before about the experience of it, and somehow, what came across my news feed on social media as well were videos of the inside of the cabin just before the crash. I don't even know how these were available. I don't even know if they're real because of AI—it's... but then I see that because I can't not see it, and I'm stuck with that in my brain until it goes into that little pocket that contains all those things that we see over our lifetimes that we try never to think about again. So it's hard, it's really hard, and it's really hard to get on an airplane. But that's true for everyone. That's true for everyone, but because, as Rossana describes, we're members of this group, this club that we didn't sign on for, it's probably extra hard.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, I want to come back to that "get on an airplane" thing, but just so our listeners can know about the stories that I'm referring to here, we know that you both wrote books, and they're both memoirs, and they're very, very different experiences for the reader—vibes, purposes, feelings, all of those things—and yet they share this plane crash at the center. So I wanted to ask if you would each just give a summary of what your book is about—the title, what it's about—so our readers can know, our listeners can know, what we're talking about. Your readers, our listeners. Rossana, we're kind of in a pattern here, so why don't you go first?

Rossana D’Antonio

Sure. Thanks, Jennie. So my story, my book, is 26 Seconds: Grief and Blame in the Aftermath of Losing My Brother in a Plane Crash. And it's the story of—well, the title says it all, right? So on May 30, 2008, TACA Flight 390 departed from El Salvador International Airport en route to Miami, Florida, with an interim stop in Honduras at one of the most notoriously dangerous airports in the world, Toncontín International Airport. The area was buffeted by Tropical Storm Alma at the time. So there was a lot of wind, a lot of rain, a lot of fog, and when TACA Flight 390 attempted to land on the airport's very short runway, it overshot the runway, crashed into an embankment, and killed five people—three in the plane, including my brother, the pilot, and two in a car that were crushed when the plane landed on them. The book is my search for the truth as to what truly happened on that day. I suspected my brother would be made a scapegoat. Seventy percent of airplane accidents are blamed on the pilot, and so I just suspected that that would be our reality. And so this book is the story about me finding answers to the questions as to what happened that day.

.Jennie Nash

And in terms of the timeline of this story, when I first met you, you had just begun to write about it. I think it was 10 years. Oh, no, I've got that wrong. How long after the event? You came into a class of mine at UCLA—it was really close to the event.

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah. So it was February of 2009, so it was a little over six months. So it was still very, very raw.

Jennie Nash

I know the 10 years part is you came back to me 10 years later, having finally wrapped your hands around how you wanted to approach it. So the story as you write it is 10–15 years after the event, looking back on it and all the work that you did to understand this crash and you are uniquely positioned. And I remember thinking about this way back when I first met you. You have a very unique perspective on disaster, and you have a very unique positioning or perspective from which to look at that. Do you want to explain what that is?

Rossana D’Antonio

Sure. So I'm an engineer. I'm a civil engineer, and I worked for over three decades in the public sector at Los Angeles County Public Works. I was over—as I left county service, I was a deputy director over our emergency management business area, and so I was trained to respond to all sorts of different disasters. Our agency managed several pieces of infrastructure, including five different airports. So I was trained to not only plan, design, construct infrastructure, but also to respond to emergencies following not only natural disasters but, you know, human-made disasters. And following these disasters, I was the lead for preparing after-action reports, which essentially describe what happened, what went wrong, what went well, and what lessons learned can we actually take away from these disasters. So that was my background.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, it's an incredible connection to this tragic event. So we'll come back to that in a minute. So Marty, tell us about your book.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Sure. So my book is entitled Always There, Always Gone: A Daughter's Search for Truth. And in 1960, my grandparents were killed in an airplane accident that was a collision over New York Harbor. Their plane—they had left Columbus, Ohio. They were traveling to New York, and they were on a TWA Super Constellation, and then a United jet that had originated in Chicago was flying in. My grandparents’ plane was set for landing in LaGuardia. The United flight was set for landing in Idlewild, which is now JFK Airport. The United plane got off course and collided with my grandparents’ plane. My grandparents’ plane landed in Staten Island in an empty airfield, and the United flight actually continued for a few miles and landed in Park Slope, Brooklyn, killing people on the ground. So on the planes, there were 128 people who lost their lives, and then six people on the ground in Brooklyn. And because of that horrific situation in Brooklyn, that's where most of the sort of media was focused. There was one survivor who survived for about 24 hours—a boy—but he didn't live. My grandparents were on their way from Columbus to New York to meet for a meeting to talk about their family business, their iconic family magazine Highlights for Children, and they were looking to place the magazine on the newsstands. So they were executives with the company, and this accident was actually the largest commercial jet airplane disaster up until that time in 1960, so it was a pretty well-known, famous accident.

Jennie Nash

So you two have a very unique connection to that accident, and where you stood when you wrote about it is much further in the future from the crash itself, because your mother, if I remember correctly, was 14 years old at the time.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Right. So my mom was 14. It was six years before I was born, so obviously I didn't know my grandparents. My mom was the second oldest of five, and they moved from Columbus, Ohio, to Austin, Texas, to live with a paternal uncle and his family. And so my book is more about my experience of being raised by a mother who was in protracted mourning after having lost her parents and not had a way to process her grief as an adolescent, and as she got older. So my approach to my book is from that angle primarily, in addition to getting to know my grandmother through her letters, which was a significant goal through the writing process.

Jennie Nash

Right. So you have this reverberation through time of this accident and your connection to the work your grandparents did. You're a writer, you're an editor, you're a person who deals with story, and they were—I mean, I was such a reader of Highlights back in the day—and that, you know, you use the word iconic, you know, probably launched the careers of so many writers and thinkers, and you have a connection through time with that, which is a very unique perspective to have on your story. So you each bring these very different ways of looking at this event. So before we kind of dig into the decisions you each made around how to structure your book, and the tone and shape and all of that, part of the reason we're all talking here today is this, what I think of as a very delightful outcome of these books, which is that you know each other. You've met each other after the books were written. And oftentimes we think, when we're writing something, that well, we think several things: nobody's ever written anything like this, and everybody else has already written this story. What do I have to say? You know, those sort of back-and-forth thoughts that writers often have—Is this unique? Do I have something to add? Do I have something to say? How am I going to serve my readers, or what experience am I going to give to my readers? And then, you know just those pinging back-and-forth thoughts. And it's not very often that we get to actually meet a writer who, at the same time, in the same phase here of publishing, you know, just the same year even, has written something that is similar-ish, you know, about a plane crash, but totally different books. But I just want to ask you each about the meeting of each other and the thinking of that book, and what that's like, because it's so unusual to get to have this kind of conversation. So, you know, I imagine there are lots of things going through your head when you heard about this other book or, you know, I don't know if I have a connection to both of you. I don't know if it came from me or what, but why don't we start this time with you, Marty.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Yeah, one of the great joys of this last year has been publishing with the same publisher as Rossana, and for us to get to know each other, because we both published our books with She Writes Press, and we just happened to be in the same cohort of summer 2025. We published in the same month, one week apart. Yeah, yeah. And I remember when we first were introducing ourselves as a group, and Rossana mentioned what her story was about. And my reaction was, is it really true? Is there really another airplane accident story amongst us? Because it is—it's not common. I mean, you don't very often come across people who have lost loved ones this way, and what became clear to me over time was that our books were very, very different. And by the nature of the fact that Rossana lost her beloved brother, who she was very close to, and I lost grandparents I had never met, our stories were just—and there's decades that separate these events—so by those natures, it was clear to me that our books were going to be different. I was excited to read Rossana's book. I was also apprehensive because, for the same reason that I described about when I'm reading about it in the news, it's just hard. But I will say, in reading Rossana's beautiful book, I immediately noticed just kindred spirits with her as a writer. It happened early in the chapters that I was reading. I had used the word lullaby to describe the sound of the engines getting going when you're sitting on a plane and it's about to take off, and sort of the sound of almost a lullaby that will put you to sleep. The person who was working with me as I was writing kept crossing that word out: “That doesn't make sense. Why would you call that a lullaby?” And I wanted it in there. It felt so right. And Rossana described that exact time, those sounds, as a lullaby. It was like; this is something that's just unique about people who have experienced what we've experienced.

Jennie Nash

Oh, wow, that's so interesting. Rossana, what about you? Your coming upon Marty's book.

Rossana D’Antonio

I know. What are the odds, right? I mean, I had never met anyone who had ever experienced a plane crash in their family. As a matter of fact, I'm going to get geeky here, but the U.S. Department of Transportation statistics indicate that one in 2 billion people will die in a plane crash. So what are the odds that, you know, life would bring Marty and I together, that had this connection, not only with the plane crash but also with you, Jennie? I mean some that came out later on. And so I thought, wow, you know, talk about serendipity and, you know, the mysterious ways of life. And although, you know, these are very different stories, I mean, they're connected at their core by a common theme, right? Very similar tragedies. And when I read Marty's book, like she says, there was—I was taken aback because there were many similar passages, you know, how we describe things or how we perceive things. There were a lot of commonalities, even though we came from it from different perspectives, which again reinforces my belief that we're part of this group that we never want to be a part of, and we'll always be connected in one way or another. I think one of the things, though, that was obvious when I read her book was that I connected, I understood, I related to her mom, obviously, right? Her mom was one that had experienced this plane crash, so it was kind of obvious the way it had impacted her, the tragedy, the aftermath, the bottling up of her feelings, PTSD, whatever—all of that I, like, clicked. But I think the most fascinating part of Marty's book was how that grief could be transferred from generation to generation. And I thought that was the fascinating thing that I learned that I really didn't know, and how these tragedies can be prolonged for, you know, generations.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, it's—well, first of all, thanks for geeking out because that is a good description of what your book is. You have a lot in your book that is kind of geeky in a—you know, you really get into the aviation industry, into the nuts and bolts of, literally, planes and how they function to the way that governments and reports about accidents function. So when reading your book, people get that layer, which is, you know, you bring to that work. So, geek out all you want. It's great. And Marty's book, by contrast, is this exploration of, you know, you drop a pebble in a pond, and how does it hit the shores? And that very emotional—you know, she had a mother immersed in grief. And what does that do to the child? And then the child's impulse to—I think it's the word search in both of your subtitles, I think it might be, or certainly the concept of it—but that idea of a quest or a journey or, you know, a need to understand. And in Rossana's case, it's what happened on that day. In Marty's case, what happened to my mom? You know, like, what was this thing that happened to my mom? And you're both seeking—that core of both of them. So I want to ask about, because I'm fascinated by this—you know, there's a raw material of a story, and how you make your choices about what the tone of that story is going to be, or the shape and structure of that story, what you want the reader to feel or to experience. Can you both go back to when you knew you were going to write about it? I think that's the first thing, is how did you catch this idea as, "This is a thing I'm going to write about"? Marty, do you want to start with that one?

Marty Ross-Dolen

Sure. I started writing after I attended a 50th anniversary memorial event for the airplane accident. And there's a sort of story that leads up to that memorial event and my attending it. But prior to that—which was, so that was 2010—prior to that, I wasn't necessarily inclined to write about it. So after attending this memorial event in 2010, a few months later, I just started telling the story of the memorial and putting some backstory into it, and that ended up being an essay that was about... I don't know, it was a long essay, like, say, 40 pages, but I was told the story was done. Because for those of us that like to use writing and words and language to try to process those things that are sitting—that we're obsessing about or sitting in our minds—I wanted to have done that and be done, because this thing was deeper than anything else that I could excavate in terms of pain in my life. So after I submitted this essay to a class that I was taking at Ohio State—writing, creative writing workshop—and at the end of the semester, the professor said to me that he thought that really what I was doing was writing a book, because there was too much material here and I hadn't done what needed to be done. My stomach sank because I didn't want to write a book. It wasn't—I wanted to be done with this topic. So I took his feedback and all of my workshop peers' feedback, and I stuck it all, the pile of papers, into a cabinet, and it stayed there for 14—well, 10—years.

Jennie Nash

Wow!

Marty Ross-Dolen

Yeah. And then, during that time, my mother had become the archivist for Highlights, for the family business, and was going through all of the saved artifacts and materials and papers related to the company and the family. And I had always wanted to know my grandmother better. My grandmother is the person I'm named for. I had always known a lot of stories about her, but I asked my mom if she had access to any letters that she might come across in the attics and basements that she was excavating—could I have them? So she started sending them to me. So while I had an essay in the cabinet, I had bins of letters from my grandmother in the basement. And that whole time, anybody who would ask me what I was working on, writing-wise, I'd say, "Well, you know I've got these letters in the basement..." but I never did anything with it. I just couldn't—it was too—everything was too overwhelming. And then what happened for me is that COVID—when the pandemic, you know, 2020, started—became part of our lives. I realized that it was an opportunity for me to pursue an MFA that I had wanted to do for a long time because it was going to be remote. And then I realized I've got time, and I could pull all of this out and see if it was something worth tackling. So that's the story of the decision to write. It was a slow one.

Jennie Nash

Wow. Oh, so interesting. And Rossana, well, we heard that you, six months after your brother died, you were in this class trying to learn how to write about it, which, at the time, I didn't quite put together that had been so recent. So when did you decide you were going to write about it? How did you know?

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah, so, I mean, I didn't set out to write a book. I just started to write. And as you know, as an engineer, I wasn't really trained to be like a memoir writer or writing essays of this type of nature. But I have to give you so much credit, because when I went to your class—and I went out of curiosity to see, well, is anything I'm scribbling down in these journals, is anything really good?—and so your class brought me together with all these other students, and, you know, reading some of the material out loud, all of a sudden, it was a four-day—I don't know if you remember—it was a four-day, one of these four-day intensive classes, and at the end, we're reading our material, and all these strangers are suddenly referring to my brother like they know him, and I recognize that it was because I was somehow relaying his story to them, and I was somehow, maybe through my work or my words, keeping him alive in some way, and that was really transformational for me, because I thought, well, maybe I can do this. And you were very kind. You said that the work was actually pretty good, and then I had some teachers that, you know, added to that. So it started out like, you know, just like playing with words, and then it turned into a grief memoir. That's the… you know, it's evolved greatly. It turned into a grief memoir, which you—I went back to you and you said, “Well, this is great, congratulations, but it's really not marketable, and if you really want to get it out into the world, you're going to have to make some changes.” And so at that point, that's when I decided, all right, I'm going to go ahead and explore. I'm going to go deeper and try to explore the truth about what happened that day. Maybe make it more scientific, more technical; maybe bring in some of the elements that were missing from this memoir. And so along with working with you and working with my editor— Jodi Fodor—both of you, like within the last few years—I thought I had written it, I thought I was fine, I thought it was done. But then I'd come back to all of you, and you would ask me these probing questions. Perhaps I hadn't developed a scene well enough, or maybe I needed to go deeper. You know, memoir is different than what I was trained to do, and that would send me down this rabbit hole in search of answers to, you know, the questions you were asking, which, by the way, was very annoying because obviously I did not want to come to terms with, you know, the questions that you were asking, because it would, like, get me down into the feeling part of the whole memoir writing. But I did the homework, I came back with answers, and then I realized that memoir is a different animal. And I really felt that your input, your feedback, your questions, your probing, really did make it a lot richer of a story. And even through those seeking answers to the questions that you had brought me to self-discoveries, epiphanies, that perhaps… things that I had bottled up, and that even at the tail end of writing the story, there was still so much more to discover with regards to grief and healing, and which was a lesson to me that I suppose this journey never really ends.

Jennie Nash

Oh, I want to defend myself when I said, “This is great, but it's not marketable.” There is such a danger with memoir, particularly memoir around big things, and you both are writing about a big thing, and also particularly around grief, where it's so big in your own head, it takes over your whole mind or life or heart or world, that you assume that everybody else gets it. Right? Like this thing happened, and it's tragic, and in Marty's case, it reverberates through my whole life, and it's so easy to skip over the work of making that story mean something to the reader, and of just sort of resting on the fact that this dramatic thing happened in your family and your life. And there are so many manuscripts like that that when they land on the desk of an agent or the hands of a reader, it's not enough, right? It's not enough. And so that was what I was responding to you. And I know because I got to work with you, and I know from Marty, because I see the result of her finished book, you both did that really hard work, and when I say it's really hard, you just named, Rossana, why it's hard. You have to look at yourself in a way… you know you have to dig in there to things you might not really want to think about. You certainly probably don't want to feel. Do you even want to share them? All of those decisions and choices and ideas. That's what's so hard. And you both put yourself through that process. So I want to ask you each about that—what was it like? So Marty, we'll start with you. In your case, you're digging into these letters, you start then digging into the news, the articles, the pictures, the—you know, all this stuff that your mother never spoke about, and here you're digging, digging, digging. What was that like for you on an emotional level?

Marty Ross-Dolen

Ah, it took over my life for a period of time. It was very time-consuming and overwhelming, and nothing about it was easy. I spent a lot of time and tears. I had a tough time sleeping. I did a lot of the work of writing in the middle of the night. In my head, I would wake up in the middle of the night reciting something I had written the day before. It had totally taken over my brain, and fortunately, my mother is very supportive of my work and has been very supportive of the book. And while I was reading the letters—and I read them all, and there are hundreds and hundreds of letters and thousands of pages of them—my mom was available to me to have very long conversations each day through it, because I would want to share something that I read with her, check with her about a story, or she would add and fill in some cracks. And she and I spent a lot of time on the phone crying. We also spent a lot of time laughing, because my grandmother was hilarious, which helped the situation. Her letters were a joy to read. But it really—it's a commitment. It's something that anybody who decides that they're going to take on a project that's going to just sort of open up the wound and create a rawness you're not even familiar with until you're there certainly needs to have established the support system. And I also had my husband, who was incredibly willing to talk about—I mean, he's been talking about this with me and listening for, at this point, for years, but certainly all the time back then, during those days. So it's not pretty, it was hard, but there's nothing about it that doesn't feel like the biggest gift I've ever given myself, because as much as I was trying to avoid it for all those years, there was a reason. I had to do it. I had to go through the process. And also, no question, there's a healing component to writing about something like this, and that reflective writing process, when you do the deep work and try to really dig and let yourself—as Rossana was saying—you know, the annoying stuff that was really like not where you wanted to go, but that is what really changed how it helped me heal in terms of grief, but it really also changed the way I thought about the story and imagined the story, and helped me not look at it through quite as much sadness and even anger, as much as I then was able to look through more of a lens of love at all of it. And I would venture to say that Rossana may have felt that too, because I read her book, and her book is all love. So…

Jennie Nash

Yeah, so Rossana, what was that experience of writing like for you?

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah, well, like Marty said, you know, it was, it did become all-consuming. I became obsessed. For me, though, it was the plane crash, right? The plane crash is the common thread throughout the whole book. And I would venture to say that the crash is a character itself. I like to think of it as the crash is the villain that I battle throughout the story. Everything revolves around it, and it was all-consuming. I analyzed it a million different ways. I deconstructed it. I peeled layer after layer, fact upon fact, trying to get to the core of what truly happened, right? And then I put everything back together, reconstructing it to try to make sense of it all in an effort to find out the truth, with a little bit of fear as to what I may actually find, right? There were no guarantees that I would like what I actually discovered. And as a matter of fact, you know, working with my editor—because I got so ingrained in it, because I got so weedy and geeky and just too technical—you know, she would actually slash dozens of pages, and she said, “I'm not even going to read this because this is not memoir appropriate. You need to do better.” And I think it was at that point where I had that conversation with Jody that the crash evolved from a thing to a character that I could eventually conquer. And like Marty said, there is a healing, and at the end, I actually make peace with this experience. You know, not that I'm all healed, but I make peace with it. There's really nothing I could do. My search was for the truth, and I got the truth, and then I was able to let it go and actually continue to live, because it was so consuming that I wasn't really living until I let it go.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Can I ask, Rossana, do you think that all that writing that you did that got slashed out—do you, because I have writing also that had to be removed—do you feel that that had to be written in order to be removed, in order to get on the other side of it?

Rossana D’Antonio

Oh, that's a good question. I never thought of it that way, but yeah, it could be. I mean, it's part of the quest. It wasn't appropriate for the work that I was working on, but it did highlight facts that I needed to know in order to, like you said, let it go.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Yeah, I just think that's interesting, because I have material that didn't end up in the book, but I know I couldn't have written the book if I hadn't written that material. It's just… yeah.

Jennie Nash

So you both talk about having arrived at a place of peace, or you use the word a “gift to yourself,” Marty. It sounds like during the writing of these books it didn't feel like that… it feels like that now. So why did you keep going when it was so hard? Marty, what would you say to that?

Marty Ross-Dolen

I think because even though it was hard, I was sensing that it was necessary. I was sensing the value of it, and I had just decided that I was committed to it, and I wasn't going to give up. I just had a sense that once I found myself on the other side, I would be in a place that would have made it all worth it.

Jennie Nash

What about you, Rossana?

Rossana D’Antonio

Well, I mean, for me, there are two things. I mean, people who know me know that once I say I'm going to do something, I cannot let it go. So that's one. But the whole purpose of going down this journey was I needed to know what happened. So not knowing what happened was just not an option. I mean, that was the outcome that I was looking for, and there was fear and pain that I knew I was going to take on. But in order to get there, I needed to go through it. So it was just something inevitable. I just knew what I was getting myself into. And I—you know—bring it on.

Jennie Nash

Yeah. So I want to ask about the shaping of the stories. You know, there are so many different shapes a story can take. And Rossana, we heard how you started with one type of book, moved into another. You cut this and that. And Marty, you had this incredible amount of primary source material. How did you make a decision? I mean, there are so many questions we could ask here, but I'm going to just focus on the plane crash as part of this discussion. How did you decide where in the story the crash would come—let's call it the scene of the crash—because it appears in very different places in your books, and in some ways, that colors the tone or form or experience for the reader of that book. So, Marty, how did you make that decision? Because the crash comes quite late in your book, where we actually see it. And it struck me when I was reading your book that that was exactly right for your story, because your mother never spoke about it. You didn't know about it. It wasn't a thing you were playing over in your head, and so the not feeling the crash or knowing about the crash was part of the story of it, in a way. So how did you make that decision??

Marty Ross-Dolen

I will say that the essay that I wrote in 2010 that I described as the foundational essay for the book was largely what part five of my book is. So in many ways, I had written the end of the book. That was the first thing I wrote. And then figuring out where to put what was really the largest challenge. And I ultimately started to realize that I knew that I was coming to the book with the goal of not having the book be about my grandparents’ death, but having it be about their life, particularly my grandmother's life. And so I wanted to downplay, even though the details of the accident and my discovering it were critical to the story, I wanted to downplay their death, because that's what I was trying to do for myself, because I had grown up my whole life only knowing their death, and that wasn't what I wanted people to know about myself, my mother, or my grandmother. So that was probably the biggest reason that I decided to put it at the end. And then also I put it at the end because I did want to have some buildup. I sensed some value in the reader getting to know the characters well before finding out what actually happened, and I also wanted it to correlate with my own—as you said—my own discovery of the story, which happened later in my life.

Jennie Nash

Well, then there's this—yeah, there's this cool thing that I thought was really cool that happens in your book, which is your grandparents have this magazine, this business, and they make a decision: “Oh, maybe we should see if we could get this in—was it dentist's offices or, you know, doctors' offices waiting rooms?” And then, you know, they're on this plane to try to get it on newsstands. And we know the incredible success that those ideas went on to have in terms of a business. You know, the seeds that they planted bore incredible fruit. And so that part of the story, I thought, was really beautifully handled as well, because we all know whatHighlights was and what it became. And then to find out those were their ideas, and then they died. They were not the ones that saw that through. There's something so powerful about that, that their ideas were so strong. They were so prescient. They were, you know, they created this thing that reverberated—there's that word again—through so many people's lives. I thought that was really a beautiful touch to how you placed that plane crash too.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Oh, thank you. That's interesting to think of it from that perspective because, in addition to my not wanting the story to be about my grandparents’ deaths solely, it was also not meant to be the story of the history of Highlights. It was meant to be who they were. And, you know, it really is more of a focus on my grandmother in relation to the company, but they saved the company. And there were many times in the 1950s when they were struggling to keep it from bankruptcy and the decision—the sort of… actually, it was an epiphany of a salesperson who came up with the idea of selling through doctors' and dentists' offices. But their decision to implement that happened a couple of years before they died, and that's when they actually started to see the company thrive. So they died when the company was thriving, and they were, just as you said, pursuing more. Because the whole Highlights is a mission-driven company. Our whole goal is to have material that will help children become their best selves. So the more children that it touches, the more successful the mission. And so, yes, I mean, it is part of the story as much as maybe I see it as separate. It's just not separate. But making decisions about how much of one thing, you know, is this book supposed to have? I mean, there were people who wanted me to write the history of Highlights more than I did, for sure. There were people who wanted more airplane accident, for sure. And I wanted more of my grandmother, my mother, and me, so…

Jennie Nash

Right.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Yeah, it was a balance.

Jennie Nash

Right. Well, you pulled it off beautifully.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Thank you.

Jennie Nash

And Rossana, in your book, the plane crash literally starts on page one—or even in the title. How did you…? And I feel like it was maybe always that way. Was it always that way? Was that one thing that never changed?

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah, I was just going to tell you, the book went through a ton of revisions, but the one thing that remained constant was the opening scene, which was the timeline of the 26 seconds that describe touchdown to impact. And I remember reading that in your class early on, and there was a sense of shock from the reception from the other folks in the class, and I knew that that's how I wanted to start the book. I mean, that's the premise that sets everything in motion. So that was the one constant, and I'm pretty proud of that.

Jennie Nash

Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting. So we know from the very beginning what happens. And then you circle back to talk about how you learned of the crash, which is a very dramatic story as well. So how did you hold the tension through the rest of the book? When the reader knows what happened, this is not a mystery, then you have to construct the story in such a way to hold the reader—you know, what else are we going to root for or learn or find out? How did you pull that off? Because you did.

Rossana D’Antonio

Well, the mystery is, you know, what happened? The mystery—I mean, I talk about how the industry had, continues to have, a tendency to blame one individual, which is the pilot, the last person that touches this very complex system that is the aviation industry. And so I kind of made the industry somewhat of a villain. And this quest for me to seek the truth and hopefully to—you know, I suppose the reader wanted me to be right that the industry was somehow to blame. And so that's how I thread the story, in addition to the fact that, you know, there were facts that kind of reinforced my whole premise, right? I mean, the accident report was never—so the accident happened outside of the country. And so here in the United States, the NTSB will always do an investigation and release the report as public information, as a public document. But outside of the country, the accident investigation—although the NTSB and the FAA participated in it—the lead was the Salvadoran Civil Aviation Authority, and they opted not to make that investigation report public. And so to me, that screamed of a conspiracy. So I thread that into the whole story. And, you know, my family gets the report through indirect means, and I'm able to dive into it, and lo and behold, I discover smoking guns in the report that indicate that the industry lied and covered up. And there were conspiracies, which are not—they're not unique to this one accident. And that's the other thing I do in the book, is I bring in parallel accidents here in the United States that reinforce that the industry is a global industry, and that corporate greed is alive and well in this industry as well.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, indeed, your book is revelatory that way. And that leads me to a question I want to ask you both, which I'll start with you, Rossana. Given how hard it was to write the story, and to be in it, and to think about it, and how this plane crash dominated your thinking for so long, what do you think about when you step on a plane? Is it hard for you?

Rossana D’Antonio

Well, there's a little trepidation. Yes, absolutely. Every time I have to fly, there's a thinking in the back of the mind, right? I think I had a conversation with you, Jennie, where we talked about when I crossed the threshold, whether we like it or not, we are relinquishing all sense of control to those people who are flying the plane and to everybody else in the industry who helps support that pilot and co-pilot, and we have to trust that everyone has done their job. And we've discovered with recent incidents that that isn't always true. So, I mean, there are things that I do. I mean, I try to sit in the exit row. From now on, I will be sitting on 11A, you know? And, you know, I do pay attention to the safety message that the flight attendants do before we depart. I think that's a common courtesy. And by the way, you know, a lot of us feel that we're professional flyers, but we've never been tested under the most dire of conditions in an accident, so we just assume we know what to do. But do we really? And hopefully we'll never be, you know, required to put that knowledge into use. I text my husband, “We're leaving now, taking off,” and then when we land, I tell him that we've landed safe and sound, because there's no guarantee, there's no guarantee that we will make it to our destination. I like to believe—you know, we've been conditioned to believe—that flying is the safest mode of travel, and I believe that, I really do. I don't want to dispel that. I don't want to cause fear. But I do also believe that the industry is under tremendous strain. Those two things can be true at the same time. We can't just say, “I'm not going to travel.” That's just not realistic. And so I choose to trust just like my brother trusted the system when he was alive. I choose to trust the system, and we'll leave it at that.

Jennie Nash

I love that. Marty, what about you?

Marty Ross-Dolen

I find, interestingly, I have a lot more anxiety leading up to flying than actually while I'm flying. In the days before, I can't really focus. Part of it is this feeling of needing to get every little thing in order. And it just sort of takes over in my mind. So the thing that I like the least about flying is the days before I actually do it. And then I have a tradition that I insist that anybody flying with me, that I know personally, also take part in, which is that I kiss the plane, kiss my hand, and place it on the outside of the plane. I think that that's super superstitiously protective. And then I actually feel some relief once I'm in my seat that it's going to move forward. And maybe, maybe part of that is that whatever control I've had up to that point, I can let go. But I do, you know, my husband always says it's safer to fly than drive. And I think that that's true. I'm not a great passenger in a car, for sure, but I'm with Rossana. You trust the system, and you have to live, and you can't choose not to travel or not use a mode of transportation. It's just the way our society and lives are. And I guess I feel grateful and fortunate that we have those options. So, yeah.

Jennie Nash

I love that! Kiss the plane. I might start doing that. I cannot recommend both of these books more. They're so beautiful, they're so different. Reading them together would be incredibly powerful if that's something listeners are inclined to do. But just to remind folks, Marty's book is called Always There, Always Gone. Rossana's book is called 26 Seconds. Thank you both for coming on with each other to talk about this unique connection you have to each other and also your individual books. Can you tell folks where they can go to learn more other than the obvious, go-buy-the-book places? Marty, why don't you go first?

Marty Ross-Dolen

Sure. Thank you. All of my information—there's a lot to learn through my website, which is martyrossdolen.com. It's M-A-R-T-Y-R-O-S-S-D-O-L-E-N.com, where there's things to learn about Highlights, there's book club questions, there's Q&A’s, just lots of things. There are links to things I've done and all places where you can find the book.

Jennie Nash

We'll link to that in the show notes. It's just a beautiful book about mothers and daughters and grandmothers and history and our place in it, and grief and life and all of it. It's a beautiful read. And Rossana, where can people find your geeky and soulful book about your beautiful brother, Caesar [Captain Cesare D'Antonio], and his love of flying and this tragedy that unfolded and how you made sense of it? Where can they learn more?

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah, thank you. So my website is rossanadantonio.com—that's R-O-S-S-A-N-A-D-A-N-T-O-N-I-O.com—and you can find all sorts of information there as well.

Jennie Nash

Well, thank you both for talking to me today.

Rossana D’Antonio

Thank you, Jennie. Thank you, Marty.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Thank you, Jennie. Thank you, Rossana. It's been a pleasure.

Rossana D’Antonio

It's been fun.

Jennie Nash

And for our listeners, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Find Your Voice, Write Your Genius Aug 29, 2025

This week’s episode explores how to tap into your unique creative genius and align it with your values to become the writer you were meant to be. Jennie Nash and Dr. Diana Hill, a clinical psychologist, dive into the Wise Effort Method. Hear about Diana's journey of overcoming her book writing challenges and how Jennie guided her through unleashing her writing genius. They also discuss how to clear mental blocks, focus creative energy, and integrate daily rituals to enhance your writing process — and your life.

In This Episode, We Explore:

* How to identify and overcome your mental stories and obstacles in writing

* Strategies to open up creatively and align your work with your values

* Practical ways to harness and focus your unique genius energy

* The importance of ritual and community in the writing process

Books Mentioned

Wise Effort: How to Focus Your Genius Energy on What Matters Most

In the Absence of the Ordinary – by Francis Weller

Thinking of starting a book?

Join the September 16th virtual writing workshop with Jennie and Diana:

https://drdianahill.com/wise-effort-book-idea-lab

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Writing Thrilling People & Places: Jess and Sarina talk with Tess Gerritsen Aug 22, 2025

Jess here! A while back, Sarina and KJ talked about how much they enjoyed Tess Gerritsen’s novel, The Spy Coast, and Sarina reassured KJ she’d enjoy book two of the series even more. I had never read a Tess Gerritsen novel, and while I’d heard her name before and vaguely understood she wrote thrillers, I was starting from square one when I downloaded the audio version of The Spy Coast. Now, I’m not an international spy thriller kind of gal. In the abstract, I understand the allure of books like Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy or Six Days of the Condor. Spies! Intrigue! International [almost exclusively men] of mystery! But they have never really floated my proverbial boat. That said, I loved Tess Gerritsen’s spies and the world they inhabit. There’s a sense of place - nay, a downright LOVE of place - and a retiring, rural New England domesticity that spoke to this retiring, rural New England reader.

Book two, The Summer Guests, is even more rooted in Maine, on its history and the social dynamics of its natives and its summer people.

Once I tore through those first two books, I went back to Gerritsen’s first book, The Surgeon, one of Time Magazine’s top 100 thriller/mystery books of all time and the first in the Rizzoli & Isles series, consequently made into a long-running television series.

Gerritsen has a fascinating career trajectory, lots to talk about regarding pantsing and plotting, where the ideas come from, and lots of other geeky details about the writing life. I hope you enjoy it as much as we did.

Find Tess at Tessgerritsen.com, or on Bluesky, @TessGerritsen

Transcript below!

EPISODE 462 - TRANSCRIPT

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone, it's Jennie Nash, founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, the company I started more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. In October, we'll be enrolling a new cohort of certification students who will be going through programs in either fiction, nonfiction, or memoir, and learning the editorial, emotional, and entrepreneurial skills that you need to be a successful book coach. If you've been curious about book coaching and thinking that it might be something you want to do for your next career move, I'd love to teach you more about it, you can go to bookcoaches.com/waitlist to check out the free training I have—that's bookcoaches.com/waitlist. The training is all about how to make money, meaning, and joy out of serving writers. Fall is always a great time to start something new. So if you're feeling called to do this, go check out our training and see if this might be right for you. We'd love to have you join us.

Multiple Speakers

Jess Lahey

Hey, this is Jess Lahey, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is the podcast about writing all the things—short things, long things, poetry, prose, narrative nonfiction, fiction, creative nonfiction, queries, proposals. This is the podcast about writing all the things. More than anything else, this is the podcast about the writing life and about getting the work done. I am Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my journalism at The Atlantic and The Washington Post, and my bi-weekly (formerly bi-weekly) column at The New York Times, The Parent-Teacher Conference, ran for about three years I am joined today by Sarina Bowen, who has written 50-odd books. She has written lots and lots of romance, and her most recent addition to the world of publishing has been her thrillers, Dying to Meet You and The Five Year Lie. And she has a book coming out this fall called Thrown for a Loop. The reason I am recording this intro on my own—which, as you may know if you've been listening, is highly unusual for us—is because I know myself. And I know when I'm really excited to talk to someone on the podcast; I'm going to flub the intro. I'm going to forget something. I'm going to forget to introduce them altogether. So today, I'm doing that first, so I don't mess it up. A while ago on the podcast, you may have heard Sarina and KJ read some books by an author named Tess Gerritsen. I had heard of Tess Gerritsen, but I had never read any of her books. I just hadn't yet. I haven't read Nora Roberts yet. I haven't read—there are lots of authors I haven't read yet. And sometimes you don't even know where to start. So when Sarina and KJ recommended Tess Gerritsen's new series set in Maine—the first one being The Spy Coast and the second one being The Summer Guests—I figured I had a good place to start. And you know, as a New Englander, I love a good book about New England, and that was the start of my interest in Tess Gerritsen's work. I have gone back to the beginning and started with her book The Surgeon, which was her first book in the series that became the Rizzoli and Isles Series, as well as a television show. Tess Gerritsen has a—she's written through 33 books at this point. And as I now know, she has also directed a documentary called Magnificent Beastabout pigs, which I listened to this morning while I was vacuuming the house. I loved it. She also—she has a lot to say about genre, about publishing, about second careers, about a writing place, and about process. So let's just jump right into it. I am so excited to introduce to you today, Tess Gerritsen. So from the perspective of what our listeners love—this podcast, the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast —is super geek. People who love the nuts and bolts and the dorky details of the writing life. Sarina has a past life in finance, and so she tends to be, like, our “no, but let's talk about the numbers” kind of person. I'm just the research super dork, which is why I spent my morning watching your documentary about pigs.

Tess Gerritsen

Oh my god! (Laughing)

Jess Lahey

Magnificent Beast. I—I've joked in the past that if I could, I would probably just research things in—in, you know, maybe there'll be a book out there, maybe there won't, but I would research things and—and just learn as much as I could. And so I loved—loved—your Magnificent Beast documentary. I thought it was fantastic. But one of the reasons that we wanted to talk to you, just from the very beginning, is that we feel like you do some pretty incredible world-building and relationship-building with your places and your characters. And so I just—I would love to start there, mainly with the idea of starting with the real nuts and bolts stuff, which is, like, what does an average writing day look like for you? And how do you, sort of—how do you set that up? What does it look like, if you have an average writing day? Maybe you don't.

Tess Gerritsen

Well, it's hard to describe an average writing day, because every day is—there are days when you sit at your desk and you just, you know, pull your hair. And there are days when you get distracted by the news. And there are many days when I just do not want to write. But when I'm writing, the good days are when my characters are alive and talking to me. And it's—it's—you talked about world-building and character-building. That is really key to me. What are they saying to me? Can I hear their voices? And it sounds a little—a little crazy, because I am hearing voices. But it's those voices that really make characters come alive.

Jess Lahey

I—You have said in other interviews that you are very much—sorry to those of you who hate the terms—that you are very much a pantser. And you are sitting on this interview with a consummate plotter. Sarina is our consummate plotter. So could you talk a little bit about how those character—how those voices—influence, you know, the pantsing of the—of the book, and—and how that works for you?

Tess Gerritsen

Well, I mean, it is weird that I am a pantser. And it's funny—I think that people who are plotters tend to be people who are in finance or in law, because they're used to having their ducks lined up, you know. They—they want everything set up ahead of time, and it makes them feel comfortable. And I think a large part of becoming a pantser is learning to be comfortable with unpredictability. Learning to just let things happen, and know you're going to take wrong turns, know you're going to end up in blind alleys—and yet just keep on forging ahead and change direction. So I suppose that what helps me become a pantser, as I said, is hearing a character's voice. If, for instance, when I wrote The Spy Coast, the first thing I heard about that book was Maggie Bird's voice. And she just said, “I'm not the woman I used to be.” And that's an opening there, right? Because you want to find out, Maggie, who did you used to be? And why do you sound so sad? So a lot of it was just—just getting into her head and letting her talk about what a day-to-day life is, which is, you know, raising chickens and collecting eggs and becoming—and being—a farmer. And then she does something surprising in that very first chapter. There's a fox that's killing her chickens, so she grabs her rifle and kills it with one shot. And that opens up another thing, like—how are you, a 62-year-old woman, able to take out a rifle and kill a fox with one shot? So it's—it's those things. It's those revelations of character. When they come out and they tell you something, or they show you they—they have a skill that you weren't aware of, you want to dig deeper and find out, you know, where did they get that skill?

Sarina Bowen

And that is a really fun way to show it. I mean, you're talking today with two people who have also kept chickens.

Multiple Speakers

(All laughing)

Jess Lahey

And had foxes take their chickens, actually.

Sarina Bowen

Oh yes, because the two go together.

Tess Gerritsen

Yes.

Sarina Bowen

But yes, I admit I have never shot a fox, and maybe wouldn't.

Jess Lahey

I have yelled very loudly at a fox, and he actually—I have to say—really mad respect for the fox, because he took one look at me—he did drop the chicken that I was yelling at him for grabbing—and then he went across the street, around the neighbor's house, around the back of the other neighbor's house, and came at the exact same chicken from the other side of the house, where I couldn't see him out the window.

Tess Gerritsen

Oh, they are so smart. They are so smart.

Jess Lahey

So smart. Sarina, it sounded like you had something— you had something you wanted to add, and I interrupted you when we were talking about pantsing and we were talking about world-building and characters speaking to you.

Sarina Bowen

Well, I just had thought that it was a lovely moment to explain why I was so excited to read this book after I heard Tess speak at Thriller Fest 2024, in a packed room where there was nowhere to sit except on the floor. You told the audience a little bit of a story from your real life that—that made you want to write that book. And I wonder if you could tell us what that was, because for me—I mean, we were only five minutes into your talk, and I'm like, oh, I'm—I'm going to download that tonight.

Tess Gerritsen

Well, yes, it was. A lot of my books come from ideas that I've been stewing over for years. I have a folder called the ideas folder. It's an actual physical manila folder. And if I see something in an article or a newspaper or a magazine, I'll just rip it out and stick it in there, and it sometimes takes a long time before I know how to turn this into a book. So the idea for The Spy Coast is a little bit of obscure knowledge that I learned 35 years ago, when I first moved to Maine. My husband is a medical doctor. He opened up a practice, and when he would bring in new patients, he would always get an occupational history. And he used to get this answer—this very strange answer—from his new patients. They would say, “I used to work for the government, but I can't talk about it.” And after he heard that three times, he thought, what town did we land in? And who are these people? And we later found out that on our very short street, on one side of us was a retired OSS person, and on the other side was retired CIA. A realtor told us that our town was full of CIA retirees. So, I mean, of course you want to ask, why did they get here? What are they doing here? What are their lives like? I knew there was a book in there, but I didn't know what that book was. I needed 35 years to come up with the idea. And what I really needed to do was become old and—and realize that as you get older, especially women, we become invisible. People don't pay attention to us. We are over the hill. You know, everybody looks at the young, pretty chicks, but once you start getting gray hair, you fade into the background. And with that experience myself; I began to think more and more about what it's like to be retired. What is it like to be retired from a job that was maybe dangerous, or exciting, or something that you really risked your life to—to achieve? So that was—that was the beginning of The Spy Coast. What happens to CIA retirees—especially women—who are now invisible? But that makes them the best spies of all.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, and we have—we did this really cool thing, this really fun thing for us on the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. It's like a supporter-only thing, where we call First Pages, where very brave authors—very brave writers—submit their first page to us, and we talk about it and decide whether or not we'd want to turn the page. And you have an incredible skill on your first pages. You're very, very good at first pages. And I was thinking about The Summer Guests, that you had this wonderful line that I'm going to read now:

Purity, Maine, 1972. On the last day of his life, Purity police officer Randy Pelletier ordered a blueberry muffin and a cup of coffee at the Marigold Café,

Which immediately reminded me of my very, very favorite line from all of literature—my very favorite first line—which is Irving’s first line from A Prayer for Owen Meany, in which he ruins the story for you right there in the first line:

I am doomed to remember a boy with a wrecked voice—not because of his voice, or because he was the smallest person I ever knew, or even because he was the instrument of my mother’s death, but because he is the reason I believe in God.

There is this incredible power to first lines. And I'm sort of wondering where—how first lines happen for you. Do they happen first? Do they happen last? Do they happen along the way?

Tess Gerritsen

First lines usually happen last. I—it's—I will write the whole book, and I'll think, something's missing in that first chapter. How do I open this up? And, you know, there are things that make lines immediately hypnotic, and one of those things is an inherent contradiction—something that makes you think, wait, okay, you start off this way, but then all of a sudden, the meaning of that line switches. So, yeah, it starts off with, you know, this guy's going to die. But on that last day of his life, he does something very ordinary. He just orders coffee at the local café.So I think it's that contradiction that makes us want to read more.It's also a way to end chapters. I think that—that if you leave your reader with a sense of unease—something is about to go wrong, but they don't know what it is yet—or leave them with an unanswered question, or leave them with, as I said, a contradiction—that is what's page-turning.I think that a lot of thriller writers in particular mistake action for—for being—for being interesting. A car chase on the page is really very boring. But what's interesting is something that—you could feel that tension building, but you don't know why.

Sarina Bowen

I have joked sometimes that when I get stuck on a plot, sometimes I will talk at my husband and—and say, “you know, I'm stuck here.” And he always says, “And then a giant squid attacked.”And it—of course I don't write books that take place where this is possible, so—but it never fails to remind me that, like, external action can sometimes be just, you know, totally pointless. And that if you're stuck, it's because one of your dominoes isn't leaning, you know, in the right spot. So...

Tess Gerritsen

Yeah, it's—it's not as much fun seeing that domino fall as seeing it go slowly tilting over. You know, I really learned this when I was watching a James Bond movie. And it starts off—you know, the usual James Bonds have their cold open to those action and chasing and death-defying acts. I found that—I find that really, in that movie anyway—I was like, Ho hum. Can we get to the story? And I found the time when I was leaning forward in my theater seat, watching every moment, was really a very quiet conversation aboard a train between him and this woman who was going to become his lover. That was fascinating to me.So I think that that transfers to book writing as well. Action is boring.

Jess Lahey

You and Sarina do something that I feel, as a writer; I would probably not be very good at, which is creating that unease. I—Sarina in particular does this thing... I've read every one of Sarina's books, as a good friend is supposed to do. And I text her, and I say, Why don't they just talk about it and just deal? Get it out in the open! And she's like, you know, we just got to make these people uncomfortable.And you both have this incredible talent for helping—keeping the reader, uh, along with you, simply because there is this sense of unease. We're slightly off-kilter the whole time.And yet in me, as a people pleaser, that makes me very uncomfortable. I want people to be happy with each other.So how do you—if you get to a place where you feel like maybe things aren't off-kilter enough, or things aren't off-balance enough—how do you introduce a little bit of unease into your—into your story?

Tess Gerritsen

Well, I think it comes down to very small points of conflict—little bits of tension. Like, we call it micro-tension. And I think those occur in everyday life all the time. For instance, you know, things that happen that really don't have any big consequence, but are still irritating. We will stew about those for—for a while. And, you know, I used to write romance as well, so I understand entirely what Sarina is doing, because romance is really about courtship and conflict. And it's the conflict that makes us keep reading. We just—we know this is the courtship. So there's always that sense of it's not quite there, because once the characters are happy, the story is over, right?

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Multiple Speakers

(All laughing)

Sarina Bowen

Also, writing the ends of romance novels is the least interesting part. Like, what...? Once the conflict is resolved, like, I cannot wait to get out of there.

Tess Gerritsen

Right, exactly. You know, I—I pay attention to my feelings when I'm reading a book, and I've noticed that the books that I remember are not the books with happy endings, because happiness is so fleeting. You know, you can be happy one second, and then something terrible will happen. You'll be unhappy. What lasts for us is sadness, or the sense of bittersweet. So when I read a book that ends with a bittersweet ending—such as, you know, Larry McMurtry Lonesome Dove—I ended up crying at the end of that book, and I have never forgotten that ending. Now, if everybody had been happy and there had been nobody to drag all those miles at the end, I would have forgotten that book very quickly. So I think—I try—I always try to leave the end of the book either bittersweet—I mean, you want to resolve all the major plot points—but also leave that sense of unease, because people remember that. And it also helps you, if you have a sequel.

Sarina Bowen

That's so interesting you've just brought up a couple of really interesting points, because there is a thriller—I actually write suspense now—and one of the books that so captured my attention about five years ago was killing it on the charts. And I thought it was actually a terrible book, but it nailed the bittersweet ending. Like, the premise was solid, and then the bittersweet ending was perfect, and the everything between the first chapter and the last chapter was a hot mess, but—but—um, that ending really stuck with me. And I remember carrying it around with me, like, Wow, they really nailed that ending.You know, and—and maybe that has, like, legs in terms of, like, talking about it. And, you know, if it—if—if it's irritating enough, like, the tension is still there—enough to, like, make people talk about it—it could actually affect the performance of that book.But also, um, one thing that I really love about this series—you have—what is the series title for the...?

Tess Gerritsen

Martini—The Martini Club.

Sarina Bowen

The Martini Club, right? So The Martini Clubis two books now. I inhaled the first one last summer, and I inhaled the second one this summer. And The Martini Club refers to this group of friends—these retired spies. And of course, there are two completely different mysteries in book one and book two. And I noticed a couple of things about the difference between those mysteries that was really fun. So in the first case—or in one of the two cases, let's see—in one of them, the thing that happens in their town is actually, like, related to them. And in the other one, it's kind of not. So to me, that felt like a boundary expansion of your world and your system. But also, I just love the way you leaned into the relationship of these people and their town in such a way. And how did you know to do that? Like, how—what does your toolbox say about how to get that expansiveness in your character set? Like, you know, to—to find all the limits of it?

Tess Gerritsen

That—you know, so much is like—it's like asking a pole-vaulter how they do it. They just—they have just—I guess its muscle memory. You don't really know how you're doing it, but what I did know was—with age, and because I love these characters so much—it really became about themand about what is going to deepen their friendship? What kind of a challenge is going to make them lean into each other—lean on each other?That's really what I was writing about, I think, was this circle of friends, and—and what you will do, how much you will sacrifice, to make sure your friends are safe.No, you're right—the second book is much more of a classic mystery. Yeah—a girl disappears. I mean, there was—there were—there were CIA undertones in that, because that becomes an important part of the book.But I think that what people are—when people say they love this book—they really talk about the characters and that friendship. And we all want friends like this, where we can go and—and—and have martinis together, and then if we—one of us needs to—we'll go help them bury a body.

Multiple Speakers

(All laughing)

Tess Gerritsen

That's—they all have shovels, and they're willing to do it. That's the kind of friendship—friends—we want.

Jess Lahey

Well, and that's funny you mention that—I had an entire question—it wasn't even a question, it was a statement—in here about friendships and being grateful to you for the reminder about the importance of relationships. And this entire podcast was born out of the fact that we were talking writing all the time, and we just wanted an official way to sit down once a week and actually talk about the work. And your work is suffused with just these incredible relationships—whether that's the Rizzoli and Isles—you know, in your first—in the one of your other series—and I'm just—I'm very grateful for that, because we—especially—I think I re—I really crave books about female relationships, especially about older female relationships. And I have been loving your books, and I've—like, as I may have mentioned to you in my initial email—I had—I'm so sorry—never read your books before. And I admitted in the introduction that there are lots of very, very famous authors whose books I have never read. And it's always so exciting to me to dive into someone's series and realize, oh, this person really touches on themes that mean a lot to me, and I can already tell that I'm going to be enjoying a lot of their books to come forward. So thank you for all of the great descriptions of relationships and how we do rely on each other for various aspects of just how we get through all of this stuff.

Tess Gerritsen

Yeah—get through life. But you know what's funny about it is that it didn't start that way. For instance, let's go back to Rizzoli and Isles. The very first time they both appear in a book is in The Apprentice. And they don't start off being friends. They start off being—they're so different. As the TV producer once said, “you’ve really written about Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock.” That's okay—they are—in the books. They are not natural friends. But like real-life friendships, sometimes—just kind of develop slowly, and—and they have their ups and downs. So there are times when—when Jane and Maura are barely speaking to each other because of conflicts they have. But by the time book twelve comes around—or maybe book seven comes around—you know that they would risk their lives for each other. So I think that if you're writing a series like Rizzoli and Isles, or like The Martini Club, it really helps to develop the friendship on the fly and see how they react to certain stresses. The next book, which I just turned in, called The Shadow Friends—it even put—pushes them even further, and it really—it really strains a marriage, because it's—it's more about Ingrid, and an old lover comes back into her life. She used to—they were both spies—and he is, like, hot, hot, hot—Antonio Banderas kind of guy. And here's Ingrid, married to Lloyd, you know, who's just a sweet analyst who cooks dinner for her every night. And I—when I was coming up with that story, I thought, I want to write a book about their marriage. So it wasn't—the plot wasn't about, oh, you know, international assassinations, even though that does occur in the book. It's really about the story of a marriage.

Jess Lahey

And it gives you, it gives you added unease. You know, if you have your two characters not speaking to each other, and you know your readers love those characters and crave those characters to be getting along at some point, then that's just another reason that we're following along. I was just thinking about, uh, Michael Connelly, uh, book the other day, because I really, really like the series he did with Renée Ballard and her relationship with the Bosch character, and how that series is totally about crime, but yet it's also very much about the relationship. And I think I follow—I continue to read those because of the relationship between those two human beings, and less so because of the murder mystery sort of stuff.

Tess Gerritsen

I think it really becomes important if you're dealing also with Hollywood television series. I still remember what the producer first said when he called me up about Rizzoli and Isles. He said, "I love your girls, and I think they belong on TV.” He didn't say, I love your plots. He didn't say, I love your mysteries, you know, all your intricate ups and downs. It was really about the girls. So if you hope to sell to a television series, really, it's about characters again.

Jess Lahey

Absolutely.

Sarina Bowen

I was going to ask about longevity, because you have so many books, and you're so obviously still invigorated by the process, or there wouldn't be a book three that you just turned in. So how have you been able to avoid just being sick to death of—of writing suspense novel after suspense novel?

Tess Gerritsen

I refused. That's what it is. You know, I—I don't—I guess I could say that I have a little bit of ADHD when it comes to—to the books I write. I cannot—after 13 books of Rizzoli and Isles, I just had a different idea. And it takes—it takes a certain amount of backbone to say no to your publisher, to your editor, to people who are going, well, when's the next one in this series coming out? And to be able to say, I need a break. I need to do something completely different. So over—how many years I've been a writer—almost 40 now—I've written science fiction and historicals and a ghost story and romantic suspense and spy novels and medical thrillers and crime novels. I've been all over the place, but each one of those books that took me out of what I was expected to do was so invigorating. It was a book that I needed to write. As an example, I wrote a book called Playing with Fire. Nobody wanted that book. Nobody expected that book. It was a historical about World War II, and about music—about the power of music—and having to do with the death camps. I remember my publisher going, "What are you doing?" And, you know, it's—it's true—they're—they—they are marketers, and they understood that that book would not sell as well, and it didn't. But it still remains one of my favorite books. And when you want to write a book, you need to write that book. That's all—even—even if nobody wants it.

Jess Lahey

I actually was—I'm so pleased that this came up, because that was actually going to be my question, because both you and Sarina have done this—done, you know, 90 degrees—whether it's out of, you know, one genre into another—and that, to me, requires an enormous amount of courage. Because you know you have people expecting things from you. And you in particular, Tess, have people saying, "No, I want the next one. I love this relationship. I want the next one." And—and dealing—you're not just dealing with the disappointment of whether it's an agent or an editor, but the disappointment of fans. And that's a pressure as well. So when I used to do journalism, I remember a question I asked of another journalist was, "How do you continue to write without fear of the comment section?" And essentially, for us, that's our—you know, those are our readers. So how do you find that thing within yourself to say, no, this really is the thing that I need to be writing now?

Tess Gerritsen

Well, that is a really—it's a really tough decision to buck the trend or buck what everybody's expecting, because there's a thing in publishing called the death spiral. And if your book does not sell well, they will print fewer copies for the next one. And then that won't sell well. So you start—your career starts to go down the drain. And that is a danger every time you step out of your tried and true series and do something out of—you know, completely out of the ordinary. I think the reason I did it was that I really didn't give a damn. It was—it was like, Okay, maybe this will kill my career, but I've got to write this book. And it was always with the idea that if my publisher did not want that, I would just self-publish. I would just, you know, find another way to get it out there.And I—I was warned, rightly so, that your sales will not be good for this book, and that will—it will hurt the next contract.And I understood that. But it was the only way I could keep my career going.Once you get bored, and you're—you're trapped in a drawer, I think it shows up in your writing.

Jess Lahey

I had this very conversation with my agent. The—my first book did well. And so then, you know, the expectation is, I'll write like part two of that, or I'll write something for that exact same audience again. And when I told my agent—I said, "You know, this book on substance use prevention and kids—I—it's—I have to write it. And I'm going to write it even, you know, if I have to go out there and sell it out of the trunk of my car." And she said, "Okay, then I guess we're doing this." And yes...

Tess Gerritsen

(Laughing) They had their best wishes at heart.

Jess Lahey

And honestly, I love—I loved my book that did well. But The Addiction Inoculation is the book I'm most proud of. And, you know, that's—yeah, that's been very important to me.

Tess Gerritsen

I often hear from writers that the book that sold the fewest copies was one that was—were their favorites. Those are the ones that they took a risk on, that they—I mean, they put their heart and soul into it. And maybe those hurt their careers, but those are the ones that we end up being proud of.

Jess Lahey

I like to remind Sarina of that, because I do remember we text each other constantly. We have a little group, the three of us, a little group text all day long. And there was—I remember when she first wrote a male-male romance, she was scared. She was really scared that this was going to be too different for her readers. And it ended up being, I think, my favorite book that she's ever written, and also a very important book for her in terms of her career development and growth, and what she loves about the work that she does. And so I like to remind her every once in a while, remember when you said that really scared you and you weren't sure how your readers were going to handle it?

Sarina Bowen

Right? Well, I also did that in the middle of a series, and I went looking for confirmation that that is a thing that people did sometimes, and it was not findable. You know, that was...

Jess Lahey

What? Change things up in terms of—change things up in the middle of a series?

Sarina Bowen

In the middle of a series. And anyway, that book still sells.

Tess Gerritsen

That is a great act of courage, but it's also an act of confidence in yourself as a writer. There are ways to do it. I think some writers will just adopt a different pen name for something that's way out there.

Jess Lahey

It's funny you should say... it's funny you should say that.

Sarina Bowen

Well, no, and I never have done that, but, um—but anyway, yeah, that's hard. I, uh...

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

It's hard to know. Sometimes...

Jess Lahey

We entertain it all the time. We do talk about that as an option all the time. Shouldn't we just pick up and do something completely different? One of the things that I also—I mentioned at the top of the podcast about, you know, you went off—not only have you done lots of different things in terms of your writing—but you went off and you did an entire documentary about pigs. I have—I have to ask you where on earth that came from and why. And it is a total delight, as I mentioned, and I have already recommended it to two people that I know also love the topic. But, you know, to go off—and especially when you usually, as some of us have experienced—our agents saying, so when am I going to see more pages? or when am I going to see the next book? And you say, I'm really sorry, but I have to go off and film this documentary about pigs.

Tess Gerritsen

Yes. Well, you know, I was an anthropology major in college, and I've always been interested in the pig taboo. You know, back then, everybody just assumed it was because, yeah, it was disease or they're dirty animals—that's why they're forbidden food. It never quite convinced me, because I'm Chinese-American. Asia—you know, Asia loves pork. Why aren't they worried about all that? So I was in Istanbul for a book tour once, and I remember I really wanted bacon, and, you know, I couldn't get bacon. And then I thought, okay, I really need to find out why pork is forbidden. This is a—this is a cultural and historical mystery that never made sense to me. The explanations just never made sense to me. It cannot be trichinosis. So I told my son that—my son is—he does—he's a filmmaker as well. And he just said, "Well, let's do it. Let's—we will pose it as a mystery," because it is a mystery. So it took us probably two years to go and—you know, we interviewed anthropologists and pet pig owners and archaeologists, actually, just to find out, what do they say? What is the answer to this? And to us, the answer really just came down to this cultural desire for every—every tribe—to define us versus them. You know, they eat pigs. They're not us, so therefore they're the enemy. And it was fascinating because we—we ended up finding out more about pigs than I was expecting, and also finding out that people who have pet pigs can sometimes be a little unusual.

Jess Lahey

And the people who purchase the clothes for the pigs are also crazy.

Tess Gerritsen

Yes. Sew outfits for their pigs and sleep with their pigs. And there was—there was one woman who had—she slept on the second floor of her house, so she had an elevator for her pig who couldn't make it up the stairs, and, you know, ramps to get up onto the bed because they've gotten so fat—they've been overfed. But it was—for me, at the heart of it was a mystery.

Jess Lahey

As a nonfiction author whose whole entire reason for being is, "I don't know—let's find out," I think that's just the most delightful thing. And I loved your framing as, "I don't know, we have this question, let's go out there and just ask people about it and find the experts." And that's—oh, I could just live on that stuff. So...

Tess Gerritsen

So could I. You know, research is so enticing. It's enticing. It is—it can get you into trouble because you never write your book. Some of us just love to do the research.

Jess Lahey

Sarina actually has taken skating lessons, done glass blowing—what else have you done? Yoga classes and all—all kinds of things in the pursuit of knowledge for her characters. And I think that's a delight.

Sarina Bowen

Yes. If you can sign up for a class as part of your research, like, that is just the best day. Like, you know, oh, I must take these ice skating lessons twice a day for five months, because—yeah—or twice a week, but still.

Tess Gerritsen

You must be a good ice skater then.

Sarina Bowen

I'm getting better.

Tess Gerritsen

So you never gave them up, I see.

Jess Lahey

Well, it's fun because she usually writes about hockey, but she has a figure skater coming up in this book that's coming out this fall. And she's like, "Well, I guess I'm just going to have to learn how to figure skate."

Tess Gerritsen

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

I also—one time I went to see Rebecca Skloot speak about her big nonfiction The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks.

Tess Gerritsen

Oh, okay.

Sarina Bowen

And she said that all her best ideas had come from moments in her life when she went, "Wait, what?!"

Tess Gerritsen

Yes. Yep.

Sarina Bowen

Including for The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. Like, she learned about the cells in high school—she was in high school biology class—and the teacher said, like, "This woman died in the '60s, but we're still using her cells," and she said, "Wait, what?!" And that's—that's what you made me think of with the pigs. Like, I think...

Jess Lahey

Well, and also your folder of ideas. I mean, I immediately texted Sarina after listening to a podcast where I heard an ad, and the ad made me go, "Oh that could be creepy." And then I'm like, "Okay, this is—this is a plot. This is going in the folder somewhere." And so you have to just think about how those things could unfold over time. And I love the idea of—and even in journalism—there are articles that I've written where I said, this just isn't their time. And then, like, five years later, I'll hear something out there, and I'm like, okay, finally, it's the time for this thing. And there's a reason you put that article in your idea—in your paper—manila folder of ideas.

Tess Gerritsen

Well, I think writers are—we have to be curious. We have to be engaged in what's going on around us, because the ideas are everywhere. And I have this—I like to say I have a formula. It's called "two plus two equals five." And what that means is, sometimes you'll have a—you'll have a piece of information that, you know, there's a book here, but you haven't figured out what to do with it. And you wait for another piece of information from some completely different source, and you put them together, and they end up being like nuclear fusion—bigger than the…

Sarina Bowen

Yes!

Jess Lahey

Yes!

Tess Gerritsen

Some of the parts.

Sarina Bowen

Most every book I've ever written works like that. Like, I have one idea that I drag around for, like, five years, and then I have this other idea, and one day I'm like, oh, those two things go together.

Tess Gerritsen

Yep.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, absolutely. I think Stephen King mentioned that about Carrie. I think it was like, telekinesis, and that usually starts about the time of menstruation, and it was like, boom, there was Carrie. You know, those two things came together. I love that so much. So you mentioned that you have just handed in your next book, and we don’t—we do not, as a rule, ask about what's next for an author, because I find that to be an incredibly intimidating and horrifying question to be asked. But I would love to hear; you know, is this—is this series one that you hope to continue working on? The main series, mainly because we have quite fallen in love with your little town in Maine—in Purity, Maine. Fantastic name for your town, by the way. It's really lovely. It creates such a nice dichotomy for these people who have seen and heard things during their careers that maybe are quite dark, and then they retire to a place called Purity. Is this a place where we can hopefully spend a little bit of time?

Tess Gerritsen

Well, I am thinking about book number four now. I have an idea. You know, it always starts with—it starts with an idea and doodling around and trying to figure out what—you know, you start with this horrible situation, and then you have to explain it. So that's where I am now. I have this horrible situation, I have to explain it. So, yeah, I’m thinking about book four. I don’t know how—you never know how long a series is going to go. It’s a little tough because I have my characters who are internationally based—I mean, they’ve been around the world—but then I can’t leave behind my local cop who is also a part of this group as well. So I have to keep an eye out on Maine being the center of most of the action.

Sarina Bowen

Right, because how many international plots can you give Purity, Maine?

Tess Gerritsen

That’s right, exactly. Well, luckily…

Jess Lahey

Look, Murder, She Wrote—how many things happened to that woman in that small town?

Tess Gerritsen

Exactly, exactly. Well, luckily, because I have so many CIA retirees up here, the international world comes to us. Like the next book, The Shadow Friends, is about a global security conference where one of the speakers gets murdered. And it turns out we have a global security conference right here in our town that was started by CIA 40 years ago. So I'm just—I'm just piggybacking on reality here. And—not that the spies up here think that's very amusing.

Sarina Bowen

That is fantastic, because, you know, the essential problem of writing a suspense novel is that you have to ground it in a reality that everyone is super familiar with, and you have to bring in this explosive bit of action that is unlikely to happen near any of us. And those two things have to fit together correctly. So by, um, by putting your retired spies in this tiny town, you have sort of, like, gifted yourself with that, you know, precise problem solver.

Tess Gerritsen

Yeah, reminding us.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Tess Gerritsen

But there’s only so far I can take that. I’m not sure what the limits... I think book four is going to take them all overseas, because my local cop, Jo, she’s never been out of the country—except for Canada—and it’s time for her dad to drag her over to Italy and say, "Your dead mom wanted to come to Italy, so I’m taking you." And, of course, things go wrong in Italy for Jo.

Jess Lahey

Of course, of course. Well, we’re going to keep just banging on about how much we love these books. I think we’ve already mentioned it in three podcast episodes so far in our “What have you been reading lately that you’ve really loved?” So we're—we’re big fans. And thank you so much for sitting down to talk with us and to—you know, one of the whole points of our podcast is to flatten the learning curve for other authors, so we hope that that's done a little bit of that for our listeners. And again, thank you so much. Where can people find you and your work if they want to learn a little bit more about Tess Gerritsen—her work?

Tess Gerritsen

You can go to TessGerritsen.com, and I try to post as much information there as I can. But I’m also at Bluesky, @TessGerritsen, and what is now called “X”—a legacy person on X—@TessGerritsen, yes.

Jess Lahey

Thank you so, so much again. And for everyone out there listening, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music—aptly titled Unemployed Monday—was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Karin Slaughter Does it Again Aug 15, 2025

Hey writers! Sarina here!

I have never been quiet about how much I enjoy Karin Slaughter’s work. So when the opportunity arose for me to read her brand new book, We Are All Guilty Here, and then interview her about it, I raised my hand faster than an extra in a deodorant ad.

The new book is a series starter with a kickass female heroine, and I could not have loved it more!

Join as as I quiz Karin on:

* How to write a sweeping series starter

* Small towns as a setting. How small is too small?

* The difference between a procedural and psychological suspense

* Character development and much more!

Karin is incredibly smart and such an important voice in suspense. You won’t want to miss this one!

Other favorite’s of Karin’s that we discussed include:

Pieces of Her

The Grant County series

Hey, Jess here to talk to you about a series I have created just for supporters of the #AmWriting Podcast.

I met an aspiring author and speaker who has an idea for a book that just knocked me over. I said, please, please write that book. This is someone who had an idea that has a place in the market. It's timely. She's the perfect person to write it, and I asked her, I begged her, if I could please mentor her through this process publicly on the podcast.

So while we're not giving her full name and we're not giving the actual title of the book, because we don't want to hand those things away, I am coaching her through the entire process, from preparing her book proposal to querying an agent. I'm going through the whole thing with her. She knows nothing about the publishing industry, she knows very little about how one goes about writing a book—so essentially, this is as I mentioned before, from soup to nuts, From Authority to Author, and hopefully we'll get her there.

But really, whether or not this book ends up selling, whether after this book she ends up having a speaking career, this is about the process of preparing to do that. I hope you’ll join us.

This series is for supporters only, so if you are a free subscriber right now, consider upgrading. Remember, if you upgrade, you'll also get the ability to submit for our First Pages Booklab, and lots of other fun stuff that we put out just for supporters—So come join us. It's a lot of fun.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 461 - TRANSCRIPT

Jess Lahey

Hey, Jess here to talk to you about a new series I have created just for supporters of the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. I met an aspiring author and speaker who has an idea for a book that just knocked me over. I said, please, please write that book. This is someone who had an idea that—it has a place in the market, it's timely, she's the perfect person to write it—and I asked her, I begged her, if I could please mentor her through this process publicly on the podcast. So while we're not giving her full name and we're not giving the actual title of the book, because we don't want to hand those things away, I am coaching her through the entire process, from preparing her book proposal to querying an agent. I'm going through the whole thing with her. She knows nothing about the publishing industry. She knows very little about how, you know, one goes about writing a book. And so she—essentially, this is, as I mentioned before, From Soup to Nuts, From Authority to Author, and hopefully we'll get her there. But really, whether or not this book ends up selling, whether this book—she ends up having a speaking career—this is about the process of preparing to do that. How do you write a book? How do you prepare to become a speaker on the back of that book? So I hope you join us. This is a series for supporters only, so if you are a free supporter—or if you're a free subscriber right now—consider upgrading. Remember, if you upgrade, you'll also get access to the ability to submit for our First Pages Booklab and lots of other fun stuff that we put out just for supporters. So come join us. It's a lot of fun.

Multiple Speakers

Sarina Bowen

Hello, my name is Sarina Bowen, and you're listening to the AmWriting Podcast. This is the podcast about writing all the things—short things, long things, fictional things, non-fictional things, pitches and proposals—in short, this is the podcast about sitting down and getting the work done. I am alone today with an interview that I could not be more excited about. I don't know how I drew the long straw here, but today I have the pleasure of interviewing Karin Slaughter. She is the author of more than 20 instant New York Times best-selling novels, including the Edgar-nominated Cop Town and standalone novels The Good Daughter, Pretty Girls, and Girl Forgotten. That's actually an amazing one, by the way—go read it. She's published in 120 countries, with more than 40 million copies sold across the globe. She also has a number one Netflix series and another long-running series. She has hit all the bells and checked all the boxes in thriller land, and she is also just one of my favorite writers. So happy to be here. Welcome, Karin Slaughter.

Karin Slaughter

It's my pleasure. Thank you.

Sarina Bowen

We're here to talk about your August release, which is called We Are All Guilty Here. I received this ARC a few months ago—actually read it immediately—because I love your suspense, and I also was really excited to see that it was clear as day on the release. So you owe me now that it's a series starter.

Karin Slaughter

It is, yeah. It was a lot of fun planning it out.

Sarina Bowen

Oh, good, yeah. And I want to hear a little bit about that, but I'm just going to read the very short flap copy for We Are All Guilty Hereso we all know what we're talking about.

[Reads flap copy]The first thrilling mystery in the new North Falls series from Karin Slaughter. Welcome to North Falls—a small town where everyone knows everyone. Or so they think. Until the night of the fireworks, when two teenage girls vanish and the town ignites. For Officer Emmy Clifton, it’s personal. She turned away when her best friend's daughter needed help—and now she must bring her home. But as Emmy combs through the puzzle the girls left behind, she realizes she never really knew them. Nobody did. Every teenage girl has secrets. But who would kill for them? And what else is the town hiding?

So, flap copy very much pitched as a thriller. Here is the problem here—you know, we're wanting the solution, but I would argue that your novels are always, always about bigger than the problem and its solution. So how did you conceive of this town, and what does North Falls mean to you as you were getting into it?

Karin Slaughter

Well, I mean, North Falls is a very small town inside of a larger county. So it's rural, but it's not tiny like my Grant County Series. And I think that I learned some lessons in Grant County—mainly, make it a larger town so there's more people you can kill, because at a certain point, why would anyone live in this tiny town? But also, I knew going into it that it was going to be a series. And so, you know, unlike Grant County and Will Trent—which I was hoping would be series, but I wasn’t sure, and I was at a different point in my writing life—you know, I'm pretty sure, 25 books in, that they're going to publish at least two or three more of my books. So I thought, let me set this up as a series, and let me do this world building that can carry on into several books, and let's make this town. You know, North Falls is the seat of the county, but it's also in a county called Clifton County. And the main narrator you meet is called Emmy Clifton, and she's a sheriff's deputy. Her father, Gerald Clifton, is the sheriff of this county. There are Cliftons everywhere—there are rich Cliftons and poor Cliftons—and so you have this family saga potential. But also, it gave me the opportunity to plant a lot of different seeds that will later grow into novels. So I was really happy about that, but I definitely structured the county in a way where there's plenty of space to tell stories.

Sarina Bowen

Right. So I noticed, and when I read a book like this, I am reading it as a reader, but also as a writer.

Karin Slaughter

Yes.

Sarina Bowen

And so I really noticed how long the character count in this book is—by which I mean how many characters there really are, how many named characters. There's so many of them, and that felt really fearless to me, you know, like you weren't sitting there at your keyboard wondering if you were going to ask your reader to remember this other family member, but you just went for it. And is that something that you ever try to balance? Like, you're not taking it easy on us here, and ultimately, I loved every word of it. But do you ever worry about that? Like, do you let that voice from other books past into your brain to say, like, well, that one time…

Karin Slaughter

Not really. You know, I think a writer's job is to trust the reader, and it's certainly my job to tell a story that is gripping and that makes sense and that pulls them into the world. And so what I was thinking about as I was writing this was, I need to write these characters in such a way that you care about them; otherwise, you won't care what happens. And, you know, Emmy is in a pretty universal position for a lot of millennial women. She's in a marriage that's not a great marriage. She's trying to raise her son. Her parents are starting to get older—you know, they're failing a little bit—so she's noticing that. And in the middle of this, she has this horrific crime happen where these two girls are abducted. And because they are in this small town, she knows one of these girls, who's actually a stepdaughter of her best friend—her best friend since kindergarten—and so just that one thing happening blows her world apart. To me, that's what the hook is. You know, there's this greater mystery of what happened to these girls, what's going to happen, who took them—all those things—but there's also something that I rely on a lot in my books, which is the mystery of character, and people wanting to know more about how does Emmy navigate this. What happens to her brother and her sister-in-law, and this handsome guy who is the school resource officer? You know, how does this all play out? And that, to me, is the job of the writer—to make these characters interesting and make the plot and the balance of the character stories fit together in a way that, you know, when there's not a car chase or a gunfight or whatever, you still want to keep reading because you're involved in the mystery of the character.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, and we sure are. And Emmy is just the beating heart of this book, but she is not your only point of view character. And how—is that something you really have to fiddle with as you go, like, do you try on other point of view characters and then pick the winners as you go?

Karin Slaughter

Yeah... I never have, you know, I think that I'm a very opinionated writer. I have a very firm sense of point of view. And so I knew that Emmy was going to get the bulk of the first part of the story. And then I knew that Jude was going to come in when she came in, and that I would have to build out, like, just drop the reader in this unfamiliar, new world, right in San Francisco, with like, a completely different character, and you don't know what's going on, and you make assumptions about her based on what she does for a living and all this other stuff. And you know, I knew that was coming all along and that the book would be told from these two women's points of view. I never felt—other than the early part with Madison, one of the girls who is abducted—I never really felt like anyone else could tell these stories.

Sarina Bowen

Okay! And you mentioned that you learned some things from writing your Grant County Series that informed your choice of the size and milieu of what you chose for North Falls and for Clifton County. What do you think? How did it feel to start a series in 2025 versus starting one, you know, a decade ago? Like, is there anything about the world that made your choices different, or is it all, um, you know, coming from what you've learned as an author?

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, I think it's cumulative. I mean, the point of being an author with a 25-year career is to learn from each book, and I never want to feel like when I finish a book, oh, that's perfect. I can't do better than that. I always, you know, want to learn something, and then the next book I want to try something new. I mean, I could have just kept writing Will Trent novels and occasionally standalones for the rest of my life. I mean, and I am going to write more Will Trent novels interspersed with North Falls. It's really important to me to—I love that character, I love Sara Linton, and I want to keep telling those stories. And I actually have another idea for a standalone I want to do. But, you know, the point of being a writer is to get better at it. I think anybody who loves writing and the challenge of writing, and feels a calling, wants to be better with each story—to hone certain skills, to do novel things (to use a pun there) in their writing that challenge them and make the work more interesting—and that's what I try to do with every book. So starting North Falls this far into my career was a leap, but I think, hopefully, it's one that has paid off for me as a writer, just to have the ability to tell new stories and kind of prove that I've got more stories in me.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I confess that I regularly have moments where I stop myself and ask, have I said this before this way? Have I done this little thing before? And what would you tell me about that—like, to just, like, get over myself? Or, you know, what happens when you come to a moment like that in your own story craft?

Karin Slaughter

Well, I mean, in polite terms, you could think of it as an homage to yourself. I mean, honestly, I'm writing about murder. I'm writing about violence against women. I mean, I do write about men dying, but no one seems to care—so sorry, guys. You know, I had one book where I killed, like, six men, and then the next one I killed one woman, and they were like, wow, this return to violence. I'm like, come on, guys. But yeah, you know? So I think how you do it is you have to think of it through the lens of the character, and that's a choice I made in Grant County and Will Trent—was that they were going to be affected by what happened in the previous book, right? So, you know, you don't have a situation—you know, I love series novels, but there are some where… and Jack Reacher is an exception because I love Jack Reacher, and every Reacher book is: he gets to a new town, people are doing bad s**t, and he shoots a lot of people, and he makes it right, you know. And I love Jack Reacher. But, you know, some writers do write the same thing over and over again—they have the same concept or the same gimmick—and that's never been a career that I'm interested in. For me, I want to tell new stories and do new things. And, you know, after a while you run out of crimes that are new crimes. You know, I've written about abduction before, I've written about abuse before, but it's the character—the way the character sees a story, and the connection, the emotional connection the character has—that makes a difference. And, you know, in many ways, it's harder to write a novel in North Falls, where Emmy has a personal connection to the crimes that are occurring, as opposed to writing a Will Trent novel set in Atlanta, where, you know, it's a stranger to them. And so I have to...

Sarina Bowen

If Will Trent knew—yeah, if Will Trent knew every dead person, that would just seem weird.

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And so I have to find a way into the story, and with Will and Sara, for instance, it's a little more difficult than something where, okay, there's this immediate emotional connection, because I'm writing in North Falls more psychological thrillers, as opposed to Will Trent, which is more procedural.

Sarina Bowen

Okay, can I poke you about that a little bit? Because, um, these words are used a lot. Procedural, to me, I've always understood to be a professional character. So Emmy Clifton is a law enforcement officer—she's a pro—so in strictly, strict definition, this is a procedural novel. But how do you feel the difference between psychological versus procedural functions in those two series?

Karin Slaughter

Well, you know, I think absolutely, if you want to be strictly by definition, it would be procedural. But, you know, the thing about thrillers is they're all things now, right? I mean, you could call it domestic—a domestic thriller, or domestic mystery, or whatever—you could call it, you know, a family story. And I think of it more as a saga, because it is about a family spanning generations, and this town spanning generations. But, you know, yeah, there's a procedural element. There's also—like, it's very emotionally tied into the character. There's a darkness to it, so it's psychologically, you know, you're very close to the bone on it. And I think that's why I would call it more of a psychological thriller, as opposed to Will Trent where, you know, it's very led by the investigatory steps, right? Like, you know, if Will Trent is going to be there, they're going to talk to witnesses, they're going to talk to suspects, they're going to, you know, have to fill in with their boss. There are just different parts of that that, in one way, the structure makes it easier to write than something like We Are All Guilty Here. But, you know, with this in particular, where you have it talking about not just the crime, but how f*****g hard it is to grow yourself into a woman, as Emmy says, and friendships and relationships and family and dealing with aging parents and, you know, siblings and that sort of stuff—that, to me, is what makes it more in the realm of psychological.

Sarina Bowen

Okay. I've actually really admired the way that you sometimes walk the line on this. For example, I really enjoyed Girl Forgotten, which is the character that is first introduced in Pieces of Her, where she is not a professional. And then in Girl Forgotten, she has joined a law enforcement agency, but it's still her first day on the job—which is just such a wonderfully fun way to throw things at that character—because then it becomes both a procedural and not. Like, she is technically a professional, but she doesn't know what the heck she's doing, and not everybody there is willing to help her. So to me, that was a fantastically fun way of making both things true at once. And when I was reading that book, and of course then this one, I wonder—how you get the legal—the law enforcement stuff? So, like, how did…I know that by now, at this point in your career, you must have many people you can talk to about this, but how did you start that? Like, how did you inform yourself of what you didn't know so that you could fix it and not get those things wrong?

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, you know, when I wrote my second book, I had met a guy who's a doctor, and he is married to a pediatrician, and his brother works on a body farm in Texas. So this is, like, the perfect family for me for what I'm doing to make Sara the smartest doctor on the entire planet. Because, you know, it might take my friend David, who advises me, four days to come up with a solution, but Sara has to do it in half a paragraph. So she's definitely the doctor you want if anything very unusual happens. I mean, her career would be the subject of scholarly articles forever.

Sarina Bowen

Zebra is not horses for her.

Karin Slaughter

Exactly, yeah. And so I am…I have them—I have a lot of police officers I speak to, a lot of retired GBI officers. One of them was very helpful in this novel because, you know, the GBI—it escalates, you know, crimes in the state of Georgia escalate completely when there's a child involved, just because, you know, somebody who's in Fulton County can't jump to Acworth, for instance, as far as policing, but the GBI is in charge of the entire state—Georgia Bureau of Investigation—so they handle a lot of kidnappings and abductions. And most of the time, you know, it's statistically…there's a 1% chance it's going to be a stranger. Usually it's a parent or “Uncle Bob,” or, you know, the youth pastor, or someone like that who has access to a child. And so she hooked me into the Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which is a remarkable resource. And, I mean, I think they're just amazing in what they do. But, you know, the thing is, as much as I know about this stuff, I always check my work because I'm not a professional. And, you know, it's very rare these days, I think, for people to say, hey, I'm not an expert in this, let me talk to someone who is and has spent 20 years becoming an expert. But it's really important to me to get those details as correct as I can. Now, they're not always going to be 100% accurate because I'm telling a story, you know? If putting in a chest tube takes 20 different steps…Sara’s going to do it, you know, in like a sentence.

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Karin Slaughter

So I have to—but I feel like I need to know the rules and I need to know the facts before I fudge them so that I can still give them a sense of believability. I'm writing…not writing textbooks, I'm writing fiction, but I want to be as accurate as possible, and I think that's really important, you know? And I know that a lot of my readers are very immersed in true crime and podcasts and all these sorts of things. And sometimes you can get the accurate information from those. A lot of times you don't. And I want them to say, wait a minute, you know, on “Murder Death Podcast”, they said this would never happen, and if they look it up, or they talk to an expert, they'll be like, ha, “Murder Death Podcast” was wrong. You know, maybe I shouldn't trust this guy or gal who's doing a podcast out of the backseat of her car for my forensic knowledge. So that's my job as a writer—to get it as factually accurate as I can.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, and there are areas, um, where readers care more. Like, when I ask readers, um, what do you—what drives you nuts in research? It's the nurses are really, like, um, triggered by bad medicine. But…

Karin Slaughter

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

But there are some areas, you know, like technology, and there are some places where, you know, less accuracy—or more creative accuracy—is more excusable than if you do the nurse thing wrong, because they will come for you.

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, yeah, they will. Or guns…

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Karin Slaughter

You know? And it's really because the armorer for the GBI—I actually confirmed some details with him in a book—and, like, some guy in, I don't know, Idaho sent me this angry email saying I got it wrong. And I'm like, talk to the armorer, right? I mean, people…people just want to fight sometimes. But yeah, nurses can be brutal when they come for you. It's like, come on, man. It’s funny that you mentioned doctors, actually; doctors are like, you know, people get it wrong, but nurses are like, no, you got this wrong, you need to apologize.

Sarina Bowen

It's funny that you mentioned the guns, because I heard last year Gregg Hurwitz speak, and he said, “Don’t get the guns wrong. The gun people will come for you. And don't hurt the cat, because the cat people will come for you.”

Karin Slaughter

True. It's true. I would say the cat people are more brutal than the gun people.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Karin Slaughter

As it should be. You should never hurt an animal in a book.

Sarina Bowen

Right. So back to the idea of a series again. I was so excited to see that this will be a series, and I—the expansiveness of the first book makes a lot of sense series-wise. What do you think is actually harder about writing a series versus a standalone, or the reverse?

Karin Slaughter

Well, you know, in a standalone, the stakes can be much higher because you're not going—you can damage these characters. I mean, you can kill the characters. You can kill them all by the end of the book, you know? So the sense of jeopardy is always heightened in a standalone, at least in my standalones, because I'm not precious with people, even if they're narrators. But, you know, I think it's really important to—no matter what you're writing—just keep in mind that there's someone out there who has experienced the crimes you're writing about. And, you know, a case of gender violence is happening right now, and right now, right now, and right now, right? So it's like every second of the day in the world, it’s happening somewhere. And I keep that in mind when I'm writing, and I want to make it matter. I don't want to use it for effect—it’s not titillating or sexualized, or any of those things. So, you know, when I'm writing—whether it's a standalone or a series—I want to set up that world where the lives of these people matter, and you understand that the loss of life is felt in the community, and by the family, and the characters, and the investigators, and everyone there. And so, you know, the challenge with the standalone is finding that world, building that world, and then leaving that world, right? It's a lot of work, as opposed to in a series where you know you're going to carry it on. So you have to be a little careful about how you structure things, and you don't want to leave your character in a place where the next book you don't know how they're going to go on, also. And so you have to have some sense of hope, or some sense of closing that one chapter and moving on to the other. I mean, I use a lot of humor in my books. I get a lot of questions about the violence, but I never get questions about the humor. I think it's really important to have that lightness among the darkness. I mean, my grandmother used to say, “You can't fall off the floor,” and I'm a big proponent of that. I think at some point, you know, you have to have some relief from it. And in a standalone, you know, you have a very short runway to do that, but in a series, you have a longer…you know, you can trust the reader, as they get to know these characters, that they have a little more empathy and sympathy with what they're going through.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so you mentioned darkness, and I've been thinking a lot about this. And your books have some very dark topics and themes, as they must, because you are carrying storylines that are, um, can be very dramatic and have very high stakes. One thing I've noticed about your books, and why I like them so much, is that even in the year of our Lord 2025, when I pick up a Karin Slaughter book, it could be dark as anything, but I know from at least chapter one and a half who I am rooting for and who I care about. So Emmy is a wonderful example of this. Ten minutes into my journey with her, I know that she's my girl. You know, I'm very invested in her, even though that does not mean she has to be perfect, that she isn't flawed, or that she even knows what's going on—but I know, because of the cues that you've given me, that I'm supposed to care about her, and I do instantly. So when I began reading lots and lots of suspense three or four years ago, as I was writing my own, I very quickly sorted all of the suspense in the world that's selling right now into two pots, without trying to—which is the books where I know who I'm supposed to root for immediately, and the books where you don't. And I noticed that that second category is awfully popular now, and maybe is sort of on an upswing, like where the mystery, the story, might be very beautifully rendered, but I don't necessarily care about any of the people, or I'm not sure who to pull for. And that’s not because these books aren't well written, but because that's a mood, and I wonder if you've noticed that, and, um, and how you feel about it, just from a writerly perspective. Like, what is going on there? Like, why is there so much darkness in the reader's perspective, and, you know, not just in the themes right now?

Karin Slaughter

Well, I mean, I think it's where we are, just in the world, right? You had a lot of that before 9/11, and then there was a need after—I mean that, and I speak to 9/11 because that's…my first book was published a few days after 9/11, so…

Sarina Bowen

Oh, wow.

Karin Slaughter

And there was this idea, like, you saw it in the TV show 24, where there's good and bad, and there's, you know, black and white. It's very—and then we've moved definitively toward grays. But, you know, I like books where you know where you stand. And I have written books with unreliable narrators at times, and, you know, Gillian Flynn did it best and kicked that off. But, you know the thing about an unreliable narrator or an antagonist being your narrator is, I prefer a Tom Ripley, right? I mean, Tom Ripley, Patricia Highsmith’s character, is decidedly a bad guy. He murders and steals and, you know, but you're rooting for him, even not to get caught, you know. And a lot of the tension comes from him making really stupid mistakes, and you're cringing as a reader and thinking, God, how's he going to get out of this? And I don't want him to get arrested, even though he's this bad guy. And I love books that play against that. I think sometimes we have books where people—I mean, what you're saying about not knowing who to root for—I mean, if they're a good antagonist or they're a good foil, like a Moriarty…I mean, a lot of times you're not rooting for Sherlock, you're rooting for Moriarty. It just depends on how it's drawn. But for me, I just felt like, you know, this is sort of a return to Grant County, which is…I started writing Grant County, and, you know, you believe that Jeffrey and Sara and Lena, for the most part, were always trying to do the right thing. And I think we've lost the benefit of the doubt for a lot of people—particularly police officers have lost the benefit of the doubt—which is very troubling, because they police with our consent. And we need to understand who we're giving consent to. And we need to understand—you know, “defund the police” has been, like, a buzz…buzzword, phrase, whatever, for a while now, but rural areas, particularly in smaller states, have been defunding the police for years. And it's not a movement or anything; it's just not paying people enough money to live off of, right? So we've got police officers who have two or three jobs, rather than professionals who have one job, and that pays their bills, and they can take care of their responsibilities with that. So we've been defunding them. We don't give them enough training, and we're just seeing an erosion of that. And so it's something that I'm going to talk about a little bit in this next novel—is that defunding of police and how it's been, like, a nationally…it’s been a real issue. We're seeing a deterioration in police forces because of it, and particularly in retention. And so that's definitely something I want to talk about, but I think you have to put it in context and take the politics out of it, because it's not politics. It's just people not having money to pay, or choosing not to pay for services that they really need.

Sarina Bowen

Right. Or it is politics. It's just not party politics. It's just…

Karin Slaughter

Exactly, yeah, yeah.

Sarina Bowen

It's just bad politics.

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, well, it's bad social engineering.

Sarina Bowen

Yes.

Karin Slaughter

Basically. So it's there…if you could look at it from a sociological standpoint, it's just a really bad idea. And, you know, you don't retain good officers. So what do you have when that's over? You know, and not to say, like, paint entire police forces as bad because they're just not making money—but, you know, it takes…all it takes is a few bad cops, and a police force is in jeopardy.

Sarina Bowen

Right, like, would you rather live in a state where the cops and the teachers were paid well, or a state where they weren't and…?

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today about all of these story craft problems that were mired in all week along. If listeners want to find you, where is the best place for them to look, besides the bookstore, where this this book is coming?

Karin Slaughter

Well, I I'm all over social media. All you have to do is search for me. You see a little black cat with gorgeous green eyes. That's my baby boy, Dexter. So that gives you an indication of it. You're in the right place, or Facebook, obviously, but yeah, I'm all over the place.

Sarina Bowen

Wonderful! Thank you so much for being with us today, and listeners, until next week—keep your butts in the chair and your heads in the game.

Jess Lahey

TheHashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Deliver Both Feels and Fun Aug 08, 2025

How dare you? That’s the first question KJ asked Ally Carter, whose name is “synonymous with hilarious action and heart-pounding romance” (TRUE). Is KJ outraged? Hell no. It’s a legit question. Ally’s books are so so much fun, with wild action scenes befitting a Bond movie (or a Jason Bourne, OBVIOUSLY) and plots that trot the globe while dancing backwards in high heels and KJ really wants to know—how did Ally give herself permission to just go there? To write the dreamy, wild, sure it could happen but also we don’t even care because we’re so in it story that scares many of us (especially ex-journo KJ, who wastes far far too much time on such non dramatic questions as “but how would someone with that job pay for health insurance? and “technically, how much snow could that unit make in one night?).

Also asked: how did you learn to write action so well? Do you take all kinds of crazy self defense classes? Or dissect movie fight scenes in slo-mo? Are you fun to watch a spy movie with, or terrible?

I would have asked her if she used to BE a spy…but then she would have had to kill me.

LINKS

National Spy Museum

The Blonde Who Came In from the Cold

The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year

The Blonde Identity

Ally Carter

Ally’s rec: Netflix: The Residence

Instagram @theallycarter The newsletter

Transcript below!

EPISODE 460 - TRANSCRIPT

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone, it's Jennie Nash, founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, the company I started more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. In October, we'll be enrolling a new cohort of certification students who will be going through programs in either fiction, nonfiction, or memoir, and learning the editorial, emotional and entrepreneurial skills that you need to be a successful book coach. If you've been curious about book coaching and thinking that it might be something you want to do for your next career move, I'd love to teach you more about it, you can go to bookcoaches.com/waitlist to check out a free training I have—that's bookcoaches.com/waitlist. The training is all about how to make money, meaning and joy out of serving writers. Fall is always a great time to start something new. So if you're feeling called to do this, go check out our training and see if this might be right for you. We'd love to have you join us.

Multiple Speakers

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is Hashtag AmWriting the weekly podcast about writing all the things—short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction. We're the podcast about getting things done. And I'm going to be solo this week because I am interviewing, and I'm so excited to interview one Ally Carter, whose name, I'm stealing this from her bio, because it was such a great line—is synonymous with hilarious action and heart-pounding romance. And as someone who's read much of it, I can vouch kids. So Ally's most recent big book that you've probably seen around was The Blonde Identity . Her current book that you're going to want to go straight out and grab is The Blonde Who Came In from the Cold, and her other book that she wrote just for me—because it was like exactly what I needed in a book in that moment and I really appreciate it. I'm glad other people got to read it, but it was really, for me— The Most Wonderful Crime of the Yearthose are her adult books. She's got a ton of young-adult books, also with heart pounding action and hilarious...wait, heart-pounding romance, hilarious action. I feel those are exchangeable. And even some middle grade if you've got some kids who might be reading in those lines. So Ally does all the things, and we're going to find out how, and immediately be able to do it ourselves. Ha! Ally, thanks for coming.

Ally Carter

Thank you so much for having me, KJ. I appreciate it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

We are super excited.

Ally Carter

I also wrote The Most Wonderful Crime [The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year] just for me, because it's— that's like, I love a mystery, and I pick them up, and I'm like, this would be great. Where's the romance? And then I love a romance, and I pick it up, and I'm like, where's the mystery? And so that's, that's how Most Wonderful Crime [The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year ] came to be. It is two great genres better together.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Also, it's writers in a—like writers in a mansion, with secrets and surprise identities, and things people can do that no one knows they can do, which is my jam. Yeah, really enjoyed it.

Ally Carter

Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Thank you for that. Not that I didn't I love The Blonde Identity. My daughter has it right now, and she's super excited, because I can give her The Blonde Who Came In from the Cold, early, because I might have gotten an early copy. So she'll be reading that on the beach next week after she finishes the first one.

Ally Carter

That is some good cool mom points right there.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, it is, yeah, and they're rare. But that is a great thing about your—I mean, my daughters are 21 and 19, so they're older, but I would have given the blonde books and The Most Wonderful Crime to, you know, a 16... ?... like, they're not—not that I don't actually give some pretty steamy stuff to my kids, but if you're not somebody who does that, they're steamy, but they're not—anyway...

Ally Carter

Yeah, there are books that, like, grandma and mom and daughter can all read together

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, I was just going to say I would give them to my mom too. Yeah. I mean, they're just super fun. Because sometimes the better test is not “Would I give it to my daughter?” It’s “Would I give it to my mom?”

Ally Carter

You're exactly right. Agreed, agreed.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So my first question is this: how dare you?! Okay, and now you're like, wait, what?! No, seriously, like, your books are—the plots are so out there, and glorious, and outrageous, and the action scenes are wild, and they're sort of everything you fantasize about in a spy romance novel. And as a former journalist, I spend a lot of time sitting around staring at my plot thinking things like, yes, but how would this person have health insurance? And I feel like you've transcended that. So can you talk to me and all of us about how you've, you know, embraced this world of the wild, glorious, fun, and outrageous in your plotting?

Ally Carter

You know, that's a—thank you. First of all, that's a lovely compliment. I really credit it toward, you know, how most things are in my life and my career—it was total accident and sheer dumb luck. So 20 years ago—I realized not long ago—like, literally 20 years ago this spring, I saw it. I'd Tell You I Love You, But Then I'd Have to Kill You. And I was, you know, big dumb kid, didn't know what I was doing, sheer dumb luck, had this amazing idea. And most of all, I had an amazing idea at a time when the YA [young adult] genre was just expanding exponentially—like the shelves of shelf space at Barnes and Noble was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And so it was a big tent, and there was room for everybody. And so I was lucky in that I got in there. I was especially lucky because I had a brilliant editor named Donna Bray. And Donna could see, like the shift coming—like, she could see Twilight and the, like, the move to paranormal, and the move to, you know, moving away from contemporary fiction to genre fiction. And she was like, we have to get this out fast. And so we crashed it. And so I sold it in, like, April or May of 2005, and then I had to go to copy editing in October, and I had—I had 32 pages.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Sorry, (laughing)

Ally Carter

And a day job!

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, my goodness!

Ally Carter

So I had the summer of absolute deadline. I would come home from my day job, I would eat a fast dinner, and I would write till midnight. But this was also back, like, before we really had smartphones in our pockets all the time—definitely pre, like, social media—and so that's what you did. And I'm like, man, if I did that every day, think about how much writing I would get done today.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

But because I was so fast, the turnaround there was so fast, I didn't have time to, like, go down a rabbit hole of, well, exactly what type of nylon cord would they use to rappel into such and such—you know, I just got—I made it up, and I got away with it. And so I realized that, you know, I would—I did do a lot of research on actual tradecraft.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

So the things like the girl—there's a scene where the girls have to go through the boy’s garbage. And there's this—you know, there are scenes where they're, you know, planting bugs and those types of things. Those—I watched documentaries, I read a lot of, like, actual decommissioned, sort of old CIA handbooks and things.. The International Spy Museum has a wonderful reference section, and you can actually order...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, that’s cool.

Ally Carter

Old, like, World War Two training manuals and things. It's really great

KJ Dell'Antonia

I did not know that.

Ally Carter

So I did do that. What I did not do was I didn't worry about, like, the brand name of what you might call it. So as a general rule, I tell my readers, like, the more specific something is in the book, the more likely it is I made it up. So when I'm like, well, then she did the one death ski maneuver—and, like, I don't know what the one death ski maneuver is, but they don't either—I made it up. But the actual sort of bones of what the school would teach and how they would teach, it was very accurate.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, it must have come in handy because you have another school in the current book.

Ally Carter

Yeah. And it’s—it was a little harder, because it is, you know, it's not for kids, and so it has to have a little bit more of an air of sophistication. And I wanted to base it off of the actual CIA training facility, “The Farm,” which is at Camp Peary—which is in the book, what I couldn't figure out were things like, do they sleep in apartments? Do they have a dorm? Is there a are there barracks? Are there, you know, is there, like, a big cafeteria? Are they?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Very few people will know what's real, and they can't tell you, right?

Ally Carter

They can't tell me. And so I actually, when I was on tour for The Blonde Identity, I was in D.C., and I did a wonderful event, had hundreds of readers there, and they were like my Gallagher Girls who had grown up and now they all are spies. I mean, they like, literally work for the CIA. They're literally with, you know, "I'm with Homeland Security." You know, several of them were like, I can't actually tell you where I work, but you were very popular there and so, and I actually did a like, show of hands, like, if you can say so, how many of you have been to The Farm and, like, multiple hands went up.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, wow!

Ally Carter

And I'm like we're talking when this is finished. So I got a little bit, but not very much, you know. And I guess the thing also with “The Farm” is, you know, they bring in, like, their actual undercover operatives to train there, but there are a lot of different groups that also use that facility. So, for example, I think I'm not dreaming this. I think this is true. Like, if you are an ambassador or an ambassador's family, and you and you are going, maybe not like the ambassador to London, but if you're going to, like, you know, someplace that could be a little bit dangerous, they'll send you there for, like, evasive driving training and things like that. So you get a little bit of training. So it's not just spies who train at Camp Peary, it's multiple groups.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I have a new life goal now, which is to never need evasive driving training.

Ally Carter

Right?! And see, I kind of want to learn how to do it. I don't want to need it…

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah no, no but no, it's not to need it. I don’t want to need it.

Ally Carter

I want to know how to do it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. Well, yeah, you could, you could use it. Yeah, I just—it. I miss—your books inspire the writer in me to remember, like you said, that very few people care what brand of nylon rope you would use to repel, and from there, it's a pretty short step to, you know, whether or not you can really stop a cable car halfway.

Ally Carter

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, we're and we're not going to but.. It’s just...

Ally Carter

And the way I see it is, if you are the person who knows what brand of rope it is... even if i get the rope right, i could get everything else wrong.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You're either not reading this, or you don’t care.

Ally Carter

Yeah. There... This is, this is not for them, probably.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Or if it is, it they've they're there, like...

Ally Carter

They're there.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's fine.

Ally Carter

You either buying in or you're out. And that's fine. And I—and nothing but respect to the people who do know that? Because now, I grew up on a farm, and so I can't read, like, cowboy books, because I'm like, oh gosh, geez Louise, of course, your barn burned down. You put that hay in there way too soon—you are you really baling green hay?

KJ Dell'Antonia

They’re literally haying in my field right now.

Ally Carter

Right. You know, I'm like, seriously, seriously. This is, you know, you're, you're, you're not. You didn’t do a semen test on your bull? Like—you know?"

KJ Dell'Antonia

"You are not milking that cow. I know how you're supposed to hold your hands."

Ally Carter

Exactly!

KJ Dell'Antonia

See I did.

Ally Carter

Yeah, I'm, I'm not, I'm not here for and so I'm, like, this is the same thing. Like spies have no reason be reading me. I have no reason reading the things that I do know about. Because it's, you know, it's, it's just, you're also, it's not exciting to me. And so I'm sure most spies, you know, there's a line in...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah it's not a fantasy.

Ally Carter

Yeah, so…

KJ Dell'Antonia

It can't be a fantasy, because you're too stuck on, you know, the...

Ally Carter

Exactly, and so...

KJ Dell'Antonia

The reality that our hay baling chute is broken, and therefore we will need multiple people tomorrow to go around and pick up each individual bale…

Ally Carter

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And put it on a flatbed truck, and drive to the barn, and take each individual bale off the flatbed truck, and then stack them in the barn. Y’all are missing my arm gestures, but Ally knows of which I speak.

Ally Carter

I know, I know those gestures. You got to buck it up with your knee. It's a whole—it's—it is not easy work. It is very hard work. And so…

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, I’m hoping not to go out there, but I know I will.

Ally Carter

Oh no, you don’t want to do that, and you will itch for days.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I've done it. I've done it for years and I know I'm going to end up there. It's my birthday tomorrow too.

Ally Carter

Oh no, that’s not the…Yeah, so it’s the reality. I think it’s very easy—also, when reading, as a reader—I hate it when it’s very clear that an author has done a ton of research and they’re not going to let it go to waste. Yeah. And so there’s like, you know, they’ll introduce the thing, and then they’ll have, like, a paragraph explaining all of the things that they have learned. I’m like, this serves no purpose whatsoever.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I also thank my editor for my leaving out the entire history of Prohibition-era alcohol rules between Kansas and Missouri in The Chicken Sisters.

Ally Carter

Yep. See, if you, if you want to write that, the nonfiction is right there, you can— you've got it. So I like to do enough research to inform the story. And, you know, there are definitely things, you know, scenes and lines and wonderful things that have come from the research. But I never do research just so I know, like, what kind of rope it is.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

I—you know, that's that I think then, then, then also, are you doing research, or are you procrastinating?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well...

Ally Carter

Because I think most people are just procrastinating.

KJ Dell'Antonia

We all know the answer to that. So how about the action scenes? You write such great action scenes, but I am also not a reader who's like picturing, well, clearly at this point, he's upside down and her hand. You know, that's not how I read anything. I just kind of go (shwoop) through that. So how do you handle writing them? Are you like slowing down action films so you can dissect the movies?

Ally Carter

No, I really don't like writing action scenes. They are hard, and it feels like I've done everything, like they're okay. Well, hey, here we are. We're doing that again, but there. They are. They come with the job. And so I think most of all, you just have to remember, sort of the blocking of it. Like, okay, who is where? The other hard thing that that comes and, you know, movies have it so much easier. Like, you don't need a name for the for the six bad guys, that black Willow...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right,, the one on the right, and the one behind... Yeah, yeah, no.

Ally Carter

And so I'm like, Okay, but how is the reader keeping these different so, you know, like, well, one of them has a has glasses, and the other one has a goatee. Okay, well, then from that point forward, I the author just call them glasses...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Glasses and goatee. Right.

Ally Carter

And so you have to remember, like, okay, glasses is down. Goatees still at large, you know, or whatever.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Is there a special copy editor for that?

Ally Carter

They're not special, but that is definitely can fall into a copy editor's purview, especially things like during that fight sequence. Okay, well, it was 100 pages ago, but it was also yesterday that your heroine got shocked. Is she really fighting at full strength? Oh, ouch, you know. So that type of thing, because, again, reader wise, that's, that was, I've, that was the midpoint. I'm to the climax now. But timeline wise, no, that was yesterday.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

And so the...

KJ Dell'Antonia

And probably with some readers, reader wise, that was an hour ago.

Ally Carter

Yeah! So...

KJ Dell'Antonia

I mean you know, we're eating this up.

Ally Carter

Exactly.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So much faster to read than to write.

Ally Carter

So you have to think about those types of things. Like I wrote that two months ago, but nope, it's still right there.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

So that's the kind of thing that, you know, again, you can't really worry about in a first draft. Like, let that. That's future-use problem.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. Now, in contrast to, you know, the wild plotting and the crazy, enjoyable, delicious action, your people feel, you know super, super real. They have, ah, big reasons for being the way that they are, but the feelings feel real. I think that is an amazing um, contrast. Do you start with the, do you start with, like, you know, the person's flaw, or what it would there's some term of art for this which I have forgotten. Or do you start with, I need a person who, or does it vary book by book?

Ally Carter

Thank you. I, you know, it's I spend a lot of time with that.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's why they work.

Ally Carter

Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, seriously, no one. I mean, The Blonde Identity would maybe be fun if it wasn't also, like, you really want her to figure out who she is, and you really want to know why is this happening, and what is up with and like, you want all that for the character you believe in, in her.

Ally Carter

And that's always I find as much about tone as anything, this particular sub- genre, it can go wacky or kooky really fast, like it's very easy. You know, I like to say that spy movies exist on a spectrum that range from get smart to Zero Dark Thirty.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

Anything along that spectrum is a spy movie. But those could not be more different. And so are we? Are we doing like James Bond, like he's cool and suave, but he also has gadgets, or are we doing like he's, you know, kind of bumbling with gadgets? Or are we doing it's very realistic?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well are we doing Roger Moore James Bond, or are we doing … um…guy who now models for…

Ally Carter

Daniel Craig?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Thank you—oy vey—Daniel Craig, which are very different. James Bonds really…

Ally Carter

Very different James Bonds, because I've heard people the James Bond people talk about the Daniel Craig, James Bond doesn't exist without Jason Bourne.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

That's who they looked at and so all of these things, you know. And so when I'm trying to figure it out, and I think that's one of the hardest things about genre bending romance, whether you're bending fantasy and romance or horror and romance, or romance and mystery or romance and action, or whatever, you could only really write in the Venn diagram space, where there's overlap. And so I couldn't, you know, the realistic version of this is not something where people are falling in love, like it's, you know, it's too dark. And it's definitely not a comedy, definitely not a comedy. So you're, you have to find the place where, no, they're in real, actual peril. This is really terrible. This is... they really might die

KJ Dell'Antonia

And they understand that.

Ally Carter

And they understand that they get that and also, but they still have time to, you know, okay, well, now I'm going to, you know, now we're going to slow dance, you know, you still have to find those times. And the other thing is, you know, you have to figure out just where on the spectrum you want to be and lean into that. Like, if you want to write, like, the kooky, sort of Agent Cody Banks of it all, then you have to do that. But then you have to realize the other parts of the spy kind of world that you can't touch. And so it's—you're just—you're always threading needles. It’s, it is a, it is a task of, of absolutely threading needles all the time.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I think that, yeah, when it comes to tone, where on the spectrum do you want to be, is like, like maybe one of the greatest questions that I have heard. And it's just one that, you know, I think we all wrestle with.

Ally Carter

Well, and I’ve had people that really don’t—people who should get it—who don’t get it. So, you know, I was in a meeting one time with some Hollywood producers who were looking at some of my stuff, and I said, “Well, tonally, where do you want it to be?” And they were like, “What do you mean?” I said, “Well, do you want it to be like, you know, Mr. and Mrs. Smith or Bourne Identity?” And they said, “Well, those are the same thing.” And I was like…

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, no, no, no!

Ally Carter

“This meeting is over. Thank you very much”.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

It's... I don't understand how people don't get that, but to me, I spend 90% of my time worried about it. Oh, I remember now what I was going to say earlier. I got my start—and I'm never going to be, like, a full-time or big-time of this—but I've done some screenwriting. . And so there’s a screenwriting podcast [Scriptnotes] by two guys who are very big, very dominant—dominant—screenwriter. One of them did, like, the Charlie's Angels movies and the Aladdin remake and all those. The other one does The Last of Us and a bunch of big, like, HBO shows. And, um, they always talk about "the Want song". So in every Disney musical, the first—the first song—sets up the world. It's "Belle," you know, like, you know, wandering through town. The second song is the "whatever she wants." And so, you know Moana, you know, "See the line where the sky and the sea meet, it calls me"—like, Moana wants to travel. She wants adventure. And so I spend a lot of time, when I'm setting up these characters, thinking about what their "Want song" would be. And so, like, for The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year, her "Want song" is, "I want to be Eleanor."

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

You know she wants to be Eleanor Ashley [from The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year], who is my, like, fake off-brand Agatha Christie, and so that's, that's what you have to think about a lot like, you know, what Alex [from The Blonde Who Came in from the Cold] wants is to sort of be free like she wants, she wants to be enough. She wants to pay her—you know? She has paid her debt for—you know, sort of having been born strong and healthy, where her identical twin has been born very, very sick. And so she, she wants—and she wants to never lay eyes on Michael Kingsley [also from The Blonde Who Came in from the Cold], ever again, who was her, you know, on again, off again, partner, slash love interest. And so that's—you know, that I always start with that, what is their wound? What is the thing that hurt them in the past that they're trying to get over? And what is their want?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

And almost always, what would they realize over the course of the book is that the thing that they want is not the thing that they need.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

And so that's, that's an Ally Carter book. That's an Ally Carter character progress.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's it. Now everyone can do it.

Ally Carter

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. Oh, but if it were that easy, everyone would do it, right? Um, no, this... this is amazing and delightful. I hope really helpful for people. I got distracted by taking some notes on what you just said. So, people—for me, for the Post-its on my computer, as well as, oh my gosh, so many Post-its, so many Post-its—let's talk just a little bit about the difference between YA [young adult] and adult when you're—fundamentally—I mean, some people sort of switch genres entirely. You were writing very similarly toned books for different audiences. How? How do you think of that evolution?

Ally Carter

That's—in a way—yes, I did switch audiences. In another way, they're the exact same readers. And so that's—that's an interesting and weird thing about YA is, about every three years, you have to make all new readers because they have grown up and they've aged out of you. And even if they haven't aged out of you, they have what I call "cooled out of you."

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, yeah.

Ally Carter

And they're like, I liked those books when I was a little kid, and so current me can't possibly like those books, because those are little kid books. And so I was on the phone during the pandemic with my friend Rachel Hawkins and Rachel had written YA for a long time, and then she switched to adult. And I was talking about... do I...? What do I...? I need to sell something. Do I sell another middle grade? Do I sell a YA [young adult]? Like, what do I sell? And she says, you sell an adult. You sell an adult book that appeals to your Gallagher Girl readers. And I, I said, oh, Rachel, I've spent, you know, 15 years building a career in YA, I've got, you know... And she said, your readers aren't there anymore. They are the girls who read you when they were 12, ten years ago, and are 22 now. And I'm like, oh, that's right, they are. They've grown up. And so I—and I had the idea for “the spy twins” and had tried to do it as YA, and then at one point I even tried to do it as middle grade, and I could never make it work. And the problem wasn't, one of the twins wakes up with amnesia and somebody's trying to kill her—that I could pull off. The problem was, how and why is her identical twin on the run? And what does she have? And, like, you know, she...

KJ Dell'Antonia

She needs a longer history than you can have as a teenager.

Ally Carter

Yeah, exactly. Like, is she actually working for the CIA, like, because then again, we get into Agent Cody Banks territory, then it's, you know, well, we've got a super-secret branch of the CIA who recruits kids. I'm like, no, you don't that's stupid. Like so...

KJ Dell'Antonia

And she's been there since she was 10, and now she's on the lam.

Ally Carter

Exactly.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You know, and then at age 12, she went rogue.

Ally Carter

Yeah. And then you've got, like, well, no, you know, it's a Parent Trap situation, and one of them was raised by a spy and one of them was raised by ordinary people. I'm like, oh, maybe... I don't know, but, you know, I just couldn't quite make it work. And so I was talking to Rachel, and I said, what am I supposed to do? Just dust off that old spy twin idea, except now, instead of a super-secret organization, she's just on the run from the CIA? And then I was like, wait a second.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well yes!

Ally Carter

If she's 30... she can—so every single problem and logic challenge that I had with that premise went away once those characters became 30. And so I just—and it was the easiest writing I've ever done. I feel almost guilty about how easy that book was to write; because I'd been, I'd been working at it and hammering at that idea for so long. And so it was almost like, instead of starting it at the beginning, I started it at the end of the writing process, where you have that one, like, little linchpin thing that you think, oh, but what if I do this? And then the whole plot just...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

So I started it there. I started at the...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Wow!

Ally Carter

Domino moment. And I'm spoiled, because it'll never be that easy again. But that's, that's how the transition went. And, you know, it's been great because my readers, they're so excited to see me. It's like, they're, I hear from readers all the time, they're like, you know, it feels like you wrote this just for me. I grew up with you, and now you're writing books for me again, and that has been very full circle and very, very fulfilling.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That, that's great. Well, you're writing them for me too. So, love that, and I think for a lot of our listeners—who I really think are going to enjoy this episode.

Ally Carter

Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So before I let you go, can I ask you what you have read and loved lately?

Ally Carter

Oh, sweet mercy. I have been so underwater, on a—on a book, and it's been the kind of—it's been the kind of deadline and the kind of book... You know how the old adage is so true that you never learn how to write a book—you just learn how to write the book you're writing right now. And so this one has just... and when I get that way, I don't enjoy reading because my inner critic can't turn off. But I will share a show that I loved, and I—they just announced that they're not doing a season two, and I'm heartbroken over it. And that is, on Netflix, there's a Shonda Rhimes show called The Residence, and it's a murder mystery set at the White House. You know, somebody drops dead during a state dinner. And it's got kind of a kooky detective and a wonderful, colorful cast, and it's very, very funny, but it also—it threads that tonal needle, where, like, no, no, there was a murder. This is still serious, but, oh, by the way, I'm going to go look at the body, but first I saw a bird I want to check out, you know. And so it's just—tonally and voice-wise—it does really amazing things. And so if any of your listeners are looking for a really great, like, eight-episode series, it's great. I could not recommend it more—The Residence on Netflix.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That sounds super fun. Well, I am in the midst of The Blonde Who Came In from the Cold. So, you know, I don't normally recommend a book until I know if the writer is going to stick a landing. But I feel quite confident in this one, and have enjoyed—as you can obviously hear from the podcast—the rest of Ally's work. So I am going to just push all of you listeners to, you know, head out there, grab the new one, grab the old one, and have a good time with them.

Ally Carter

Aww, thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You're welcome. Thanks so much for being here. Oh, should people follow you on social media? Do you do anything fun? Are you...?

Ally Carter

I do nothing fun. I'm not fun at all. I'm mostly on Instagram; I guess at this point I'm the Ally Carter over there. I have a couple of kind of defunct Facebook pages that I update occasionally. I just updated it for the first time, evidently, in two years. So that was fun. I'm on Threads very seldom. I used to be on Twitter and I still have that account I don't update it very often. Um, but yeah—and of course, my newsletter, like the newsletter is—I think we need to come back. We all need to get back to the newsletter, because it will deliver the news directly to your inbox. And so if you want to make sure you don't miss any like, you know, tour events, which, by the way, I'm coming to Boston on tour in a couple of weeks. So looking forward to that a lot. I think its Lovestruck Books? Is that Boston?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Probably yeah.

Ally Carter

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's the new romance bookstore there. I've been with Sarina a couple of times, and yeah, it's a great—it is a beautiful store. Like, every detail. Their bathrooms are phenomenal. That's how wonderful this store is. So, very cool. All right, I will link up the newsletter in the show notes, and yeah, about, you know, once every week, I decide to just cancel all the rest of my social media and only do my AmReading email. And then I imagine what my agent would say. And yeah, I don’t do it, but...

Ally Carter

It's, you know, and I feel like I'm such a broken record, like, oh, you know, go buy my book. Oh, go, you know, I'm going to be here on tour. Oh, this is how you get signed books. But—and I just say over and over and over again—and then inevitably, and this really happened to me one time, I was sitting at the LAX Airport waiting on a flight home, and I got an irate message from a reader that I never come to LA. And I was like, I did an event here last night—like, I was at the Barnes and Noble at The Grove or wherever—last night. And so we said, we—it feels like we are just beating a dead horse letting people know about these things, but it's so easy for things to get lost. And so...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah! Jess tells the story—that's one of my other co-hosts—about, you know, someone who had come up to her, really one of her biggest fans, “Good new book.” And, “I get your idea, I love this, and I love that you wrote, like, knew a lot.” And then she said, “Oh, well, did you enjoy my latest book?” And they're like, “You have a new book?!”

Ally Carter

It happens every time. And so, you know, it's—it's just part of the business at this point.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You've got to do it—it's just part of the business. All right. Well, thank you again...

Ally Carter

Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And as always, listeners until next week keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess Lahey

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

A Deep Dive Into Genre Aug 01, 2025

Sarina’s second thriller is now out. It’s a twisty thriller with a single-mom protagonist and some deep, dark secrets. It’s called Dying to Meet Youand it is creepy in the best possible way.

In this episode, Jennie interviews Sarina about the new book, and about the difference between writing romance and writing thrillers. You may think that’s obvious, but Sarina has recently shifted into writing thrillers and she has such a nuanced understanding about what it all means. She gets into what defines a genre, how you have to honor your readers expectations, and the different ways you hold tension when telling a story. It’s a masterclass in genre.

Books mentioned:Dying to Meet You, Sarina Bowen

Sarina’s other thriller, The Five Year Lie

The Guest List, Lucy Foley

On a Quiet Street, Seraphina Nova Glass

Rowan Gallagher is a devoted single mother and a talented architect with a high-profile commission restoring an historic mansion for the most powerful family in Maine. But inside, she’s a mess. She knows that stalking her ex’s avatar all over Portland on her phone isn’t the healthiest way to heal from their breakup. But she’s out of ice cream and she’s sick of romcoms.

Watching his every move is both fascinating and infuriating. He’s dining out while she’s wallowing on the couch. The last straw comes when he parks in their favorite spot on the waterfront. In a weak moment, she leashes the dog and sets off to see who else is in his car.

Instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder—and the primary suspect.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 459 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Listeners who I know are also readers—have I got a summer book for you. If you haven't yet ordered Dying to Meet You, Sarina Bowen's latest thriller with just enough romance, you have to. So let me lay this out for you. Rowan Gallagher is a devoted single mother and a talented architect with a high-profile commission restoring a historic mansion for the most powerful family in Maine, but inside, she's a mess. She knows stalking her ex's avatar all over Portland on her phone isn't the healthiest way to heal from their breakup, but she's out of ice cream and she's sick of rom-coms. Watching his every move is both fascinating and infuriating. He's dining out while she's wallowing on the couch. The last straw comes when he parks in their favorite spot on the waterfront. In a weak moment, she leashes the dog and sets off to see who else is in his car. But instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder—and the primary suspect. But Rowan isn't the only one keeping secrets. As she digs for the truth, she discovers that the dead man was stalking her too, gathering intimate details about her job and her past. Struggling to clear her name, Rowan finds herself spiraling into the shadowy plot that killed him. Will she be the next to die? You're going to love this. I've had a sneak preview, and I think we all know that The Five Year Lie was among the very best reads and listens of last summer. Dying to Meet You is available in every format and anywhere that you buy books. And you could grab your copy—and you absolutely should—right now.

Multiple Speakers

Jennie Nash

Hey, writers, I'm Jennie Nash, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we talk about writing all the things—short things, long things, fiction, non-fiction, pitches, and proposals. I'm here today to talk to our own Sarina Bowen. Her newest thriller, Dying to Meet You, just came out a few weeks ago, and I've been dying to talk to Sarina about the way she's been switching back and forth between romance and thriller. This is her second thriller. The last one came out last year. That one's called The Five Year Lie. And so we're just here to talk about genre, and romance, and thriller, and how Sarina does it—this back-and-forth kind of code switching between genres. So, welcome, Sarina.

Sarina Bowen

Thank you. It's always fun to talk about genre. It's my favorite thing.

Jennie Nash

Well, I just was really struck when I was reading. I've been reading your romances for so long, and you have so many of them, and you're so good at them, and...

Sarina Bowen

Well, thank you.

Jennie Nash

And then here we have an entirely new genre that you have entered into in a really big way. And it's not—so this is not about, how do you come up with your idea, or how did you do it? Or—I mean, all those are great questions. We love those. And I've heard you talk about those other places. But what I want to try to get at here is this idea—really, what is genre? So when you think about that, you're sitting down to start one or this other. What do you think about, like, what are the things that—genre? What does the genre mean to you?

Sarina Bowen

Well, I talk about this a lot when I am discussing my books, which is that I don't find that—that the thriller genre and that the romance genres are all that different. Like, each one of those things makes a promise to the reader and then must deliver it by the last page. It's just that the promise is slightly different between those two things. So in a romance, the reader is promised a satisfactory romantic conclusion to the book. And in a thriller, the reader is promised that whatever mess and confusion is established on page one, that it will be rectified and solved by the end of the book—that the chaos will become at least understanding, if not order. So the thing is that the job of the novelist is kind of the same in both situations, which is, we are going to take the main character on a journey, and she is going to learn some stuff before it's over—or it's not really a novel. Now, to be fair, not every novel is constructed like that and does both of those things. Like what—what makes it feel familiar to me in both cases is that I always write an empathetic main character, and not every author of suspense does this. So there are a lot of really popular suspense novels where you're not sure who to root for, and you don't really like any of the characters. And those books can be really exciting and really well written, and there's a total—a huge audience for that. But that is not what I do in suspense space, and that doesn't make me unique. Like, there are a lot of suspense authors who also operate this way. For example, Harlan Coben and Karin Slaughter write best-selling novels of suspense where you always know who to root for from the first chapter. Like, you are given a main character who is a likable human—a flawed person—but still, like, you know, somebody to root for, and you're rooting for that person until the end of the book. So it's not like this is just my special romance author's twist on it—like, it's a thing. It's just that there are other suspense authors who don't operate under that, you know, scenario. So that's one of the reasons why, to me, like, the job feels kind of similar to writing a romance and writing a suspense the way that I do it. It's just that when I'm writing a suspense, first of all, it takes a lot longer, because a suspense reader is really there to match wits with you, and you have to deliver on—on that experience of paying a lot of attention to where the camera is swinging, and to show them some truths that will turn out to be only half-truths, and to make it a really great ride. Like, the roller coaster of a suspense novel requires more engineering than the roller coaster of a romance, and it can be a lot less linear in construction. And, you know, there are complexities that a romance does not need to—to succeed. So yeah, it's not exactly the same job. But, you know, romance requires on a different level a lot of those same narrative tricks. Like, people love to say that romances are formulaic, and I always want to cry, because if that were true, then it would be so easy. And I—I would spend less time sweating at my keyboard if a romance was formulaic, because then I would know what to do. And it's almost harder to hold the tension when the reader knows you're going to get somewhere satisfying. So, you—you know, you have to make sure that couple has some real issues to work through, and that's hard.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, we're going to come back to so many things that you're saying because...

Sarina Bowen

Okay.

Jennie Nash

This is—this is great. But I want to return to something you said at the very beginning, where you were explaining this, which is the promise to the reader, and this idea of a contract that the writer and the reader enter into. When—when a reader starts a book, there's this promise, there's this expectation, there's—And you—it sounds like what I heard from you, which I just think is so interesting, is a very deep respect for the writer—I mean, for the reader's experience. And is that something that you have as a human, or, you know, like, is it—is that just—does that just come from respect for the time somebody's going to spend and that sort of thing? Or is that respect of the genre?

Sarina Bowen

Oh, it's both. I mean, of course, we were all readers before we were writers, and I know what I find frustrating and unsatisfying in a book. So I want to deliver a reader experience that aligns with my most satisfying experiences in—in each genre. And it's such a work in progress. Like, over 10 years of delivering stories, my understanding of what really matters is constantly shifting.

Jennie Nash

Ooh, can you say more?

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. So—I have the things that I like as a reader. So of course, those are going to figure in heavily. Like, I love a good secret unveiled, no matter what genre I'm reading. Like, a secret in romance that comes out and changes everything is just as satisfying as when that happens in suspense, even though it's less necessary. And each genre has its own bell curve of stakes, let's just say. Like, if you picture a bell curve of stakes—for romance, you could have on the lower end, like a rom-com, where the stakes, you know, are only as large as this couple. And in a thriller, like in an international spy thriller, the stakes could be like, the world might end, or—or a bomb might go off in the middle of Times Square, you know. So there's a bell curve of stakes. And as a—as a writer, I'm not suggesting that you can't, you know, move around on that bell curve and make it work for you. But the two genres—you know, the bell curves are in different spots, and you have to figure out where you are on that gradient of possible results, and then figure out where your stakes are coming from. And I guess what it took me a real—a really long time to learn is how much in control I am of what the reader is paying attention to, and what the reader is focused on, and that the best way to write a novel is almost always to ask yourself, what experience do I want the reader to have? And then figure that out. Like, it's almost like—if you think about roller coaster design, and there's just this really fun video on the WIRED Magazine website with an actual roller coaster designer who shows you how it's done.

Jennie Nash

Oh that's very cool. We'll get the link for that in the show notes.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I'll try to find it. But it makes you think about all these things you don't think about when you're getting on it. Like, your view of getting on a roller coaster is that weird little shed where you step into the car, and you know, you pull on your protective stuff, and you think to yourself, like, whoa, I hope it doesn't fail this time—ha ha ha. And then you experience it, you know. And certain parts of the ride are really predictable, like the initial climb—like, no roller coaster starts without that initial climb—and then the first drop. And, you know, parts of the experience, you—you know before you get on what's going to happen. And then other parts of it are just like, you know, a thrill a minute, like waving you around, and, oh, you didn't see that curve coming. And so, you know, looking at that thing and designing it from the outside to have that experience is something I didn't realize I had to do. Like, as a reader of genre fiction, I just experienced everything like the person getting on the roller coaster at the beginning. And it's taken me, like, a decade to realize that, you know, I have to actually view this thing—like, plan ahead. What—you know, what I want people to feel. Like, where do I want them to cry? Where are we going to laugh? Like, how can we put those two things in the same book? And you know, that—that's the job, and I really like it. But it requires a certain amount of analysis, which is why, when I meet somebody who doesn't plan their books, I'm always, like, stunned. Although, you know, it can—it can work.

Jennie Nash

That idea of what you want the reader to feel is why we're having this conversation. Because I actually can barely stand to read suspense or thrillers, because I get too scared. I really get into it, and I—I freak myself out, and it's been that way for a very long time. But I really wanted to read yours, because I wanted to see this shift in your professional life, and I wanted to see what all the buzz was about, because people are loving these thrillers. And I thought, oh, I surely can handle this now. But it's so hard for me because—and you do such a good job of making that scary tension so palpable, and that what you feel as the reader. And then I was thinking about why the same thing happens in Sarina's romances. I feel something. You know, you're—there's a tension that you're wanting, a resolution that you're—what—you know, wondering, will they? Will they, you know, declare their love for each other? Will they—whatever the thing is? And it just really struck me that I'm in the hands of somebody who's not manipulating that, but has engineered that form. And so it's curious to hear that you're—that's the work you feel that you do. So can you talk about how that is different from plotting the novel—that emotional engineering, if you will? Or is it?

Sarina Bowen

No, you're right. It is—it is? Um, so one of the things that I feel I'm pretty good at is establishing empathy early in the book. And I—uh, like I said, there are some thriller authors who write entire books without doing that—like, where you're not sure who you're supposed to like. But to me, that actually seems harder, because if you establish empathy for some characters early on, then the stakes are automatically higher.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Because the reader cares about that person.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

And I read a book a couple years ago that I thought was so good with this, and it was On a Quiet Street by Seraphina Nova Glass. And she establishes empathy with a character in the prologue, and then chapter one establishes empathy with a different one. And she has this sort of medley of voices that tells this story of something dire happening on a quiet street. And the thing is that she does later—is she really shifts your empathy around, where you care about all these people but you can't—like, because somebody is guilty. So, you know, the length of your empathy is actually going to be snipped in a couple of places, which I think is masterful. And I think it's more masterful than the thriller author who, um, doesn't care if you like anybody but is still delivering, like, big shocks. To me, that just has less emotional resonance, and I care less. But apparently, that's unique to me, because if you look at The New York Times bestseller list, it does not reflect my preference for empathy.

Jennie Nash

So what do you do to create that empathy? How are you doing that work in the start of the book?

Sarina Bowen

Oh, wow, I never think about this.

Jennie Nash

I'm sure you—sure you have an answer, though.

Sarina Bowen

No, I—yeah. Okay, so I guess the reason that my thrillers read a little bit like my romances to you, is that I really like a female main character who is like one of us, who's just trying to get through the day. And maybe she has even a glamorous job, and she's a super successful person, but that doesn't mean she's not, like, a little bit of a mess inside—but a relatable mess. So establishing empathy early on, to me, is just like breathing. Like, you know, we might have this glamorous job, but, my God, the world is just so irritating. Or—right? Or, how did we just, you know, make ourselves sound like—like a dunderhead in front of the hot guy or whatever, you know? Like, to me, that's not hard.

Jennie Nash

Right, right. And so you talked about engineering and complexity as a difference between the two genres, and that the thrillers require more engineering of plot, is what I imagine you're referring to. How do you go about—how does it differ? So here you're creating a character. You're creating empathy for the character. And now these genres are going to go in really different directions. What? What are the steps? Not like, how do you do it, or how do you write a novel, but sort of almost your emotional steps, like, okay, now I need to do X, or now I need to—I want them to feel Y.

Sarina Bowen

Right. Well, one way to think about it—and this works for almost any novel that you'd ever want to write—is you have to look at the sort of landscape of this story you're going to tell, or the plot you think you're going to pull off, and you have to say, what are my "oh s**t moments"?

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Where do I want the reader to go, oh s**t? And if you don't know that when you start the book—like, I would find that to be a problem.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

And you don't have to know exactly where they're standing when this happens, or exactly what page of the book. I'm actually terrible at that. I never know how long anything is going to take. But—but you have to know what that oh s**t moment is. And then you have to sort of back—work backwards from that. Like, okay, well, if I know why that's a big problem and a big deal—like, why is it, and how am I going to set that up? So—and I also think ahead of time about the fun and games part of any book.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Like, what is the sort of rising action of, like, the learning about it and the deepening of the problem. So I'm working on a romance right now that takes place at a wedding.

Jennie Nash

Fun!

Sarina Bowen

And I... yeah, well okay, is it, though? Because one of, one the reasons I chose this setting, is that it's a hockey player. And I've written so many hockey books that take place, like, at the arena and at the office. And I'm like; we got to get out of here. Um, so we're both going to a wedding—this—we have to go to the same wedding, and work—everything's going to happen here. And I never write weddings. And then I'm into it, and I'm writing this wedding, and I look at myself and I'm like, you know why we don't write weddings? We don't like weddings very much.

Jennie Nash

What don't you like about them?

Sarina Bowen

Oh, because they're all the same. I don't know. It's—to me, they feel—I guess I'm not a really reverent person. Like, ceremony isn't a big part of my life, and I don't love it. So—um, so what I was able to do in this book that makes this book something that I can identify with is that neither one of our characters is totally excited to be here, either. So there's some problems like this. There's some real family mayhem that is preventing either of these characters from being like, woo hoo, wedding! Yeah, let's have a good time! And then—yeah, so I have to bring my own experience into it. And then, of course, the ceremony itself—it turns out they're both feeling a lot of things. And, you know, there's this very lovely part right at the beginning. I'm like, okay, okay, so we got here, we can feel the feelings, but we didn't have to, like, every moment of this wedding for—to pull it off. So—um—but I looked at my, like, little scaffolding of what I wanted these characters to experience and what their "oh s**t moments" might be, and then I sort of grafted them onto the typical wedding experience and, you know, tried to find the best matches for that. And that was kind of the work of this book.

Jennie Nash

So the "oh s**t moment" in a romance is—what would some of those be? Like, oh, I think—I think he likes me, or, oh, I think I like him? Like, is it those ratcheting up of the emotional stakes?

Sarina Bowen

It's—yes. Like, oh s**t, I can't believe I have revealed myself like this. I have exposed myself like this. I have made myself vulnerable. And then—and then, as the—as the arc goes on, you're like, oh s**t, here's why I don't usually do this...

Jennie Nash

Right.

Sarina Bowen

Here's the reason I didn't want to make myself vulnerable and exposed—because, oh s**t, you know? Like—so you get to—you get to play with that. And hopefully, in most romances, there's a moment when, you know, it looks like it's all going to go wrong.

Jennie Nash

Right. So what strikes me in listening to you, is that, writing about human nature—of course, because they're people and their stories—and the human nature around romance is—well, you said, I don't want to reveal myself or be vulnerable, so you want to protect your heart. And in the thrillers, it's, I want to protect my body and the bodies of the people I love. Is that—is that a fair differentiator? Like, we're trying to keep ourselves safe in some profound way in each of these genres, right?

Sarina Bowen

Right. And we're also trying to avoid betrayal, and, like, to avoid backing the wrong horse in both genres as well.

Jennie Nash

Ooh, that's interesting, right? Let's talk about that.

Sarina Bowen

Well—um, in a thriller, one of the best ways to craft a twist is when you get the reader to back the wrong character. And, you know, you have multiple characters, and if—even if you're going along with a relatable protagonist that the reader knows is not going to turn into a bad guy—that person still has people around them, and they're going to trust some of them and not others. And did they pick correctly? So that's the kind of betrayal that makes a good twist. But in a romance, it's the same possibilities. Like, you know, you made yourself very vulnerable to this other romantic partner. And, you know, it might not be a straight-up betrayal of, you know, oh wait, I love someone else. But it could just be a betrayal of priorities, or, you know, of courage.

Jennie Nash

And at the end of each of these types of stories, the reader feels a sense of—we're back, we've talked about the bell curve—of back to safety, or—or homeostasis, or there's a relief, or it's going to be okay, and everything's okay now. So they have that in common too, right? That intense resolution of the tension.

Sarina Bowen

Right. And then sometimes, in suspense space, you see an author pull this off in a way that all of that is done at the reader's own level, and not at the character's. Like, there's this book I love by Lucy Foley, called The Guest List, and that book is not typical, in that the work of the book is not to solve the crime in real time in the story. The work of that book is for the reader to understand what happened—like, the reader is the sleuth.

Jennie Nash

Oh.

Sarina Bowen

But nobody is actually sleuthing the story... at all. You know what happens, but it's to the satisfaction of you as the reader, but not the people running around in the book.

Jennie Nash

Right, wow that sounds cool.

Sarina Bowen

It is very cool, but it's still true. Like, the—the work of the book is to figure out what happened, but the people on the page are not figuring out what happened. It's you having the experience that is figuring out what happened, but there's no mystery about it in the actual book. It's really—you would just have to try it.

Jennie Nash

Is it fair to say that your second thriller—the new one, Dying to Meet You—is creepier than the first one, which is, The Five Year Lie? Do you think that's fair to say? Are people saying that? Do you feel that?

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, okay—yes, a little. But I think what's a better classification is that Dying to Meet You, sits a little more fully on the thriller shelf. It has a plot arc that is more typical of thrillers that are also on that shelf than The Five Year Lie.

Jennie Nash

Okay, maybe that's what—maybe that's the feeling, because The Five Year Lie—there's a—there's a romance baked into it as well. Like, there is so much going on in there. So that's interesting, that you—did you consciously move in that direction, or did—was it just right for that story?

Sarina Bowen

I think maybe both. I can't even remember now.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, yeah.

Sarina Bowen

But I really loved the premise of Dying to Meet You, and I wanted to play with that. And—I mean, I guess what distinguishes them from a reader standpoint, who's, like, reading the backs of both of those books, maybe, is that there is a dead body at the beginning of one of them and not the other one. So, like, it—it lands more firmly in the reader's expectations, that Dying to Meet You is more thriller-y, because you know—it says in the flap copy, like, this book starts when somebody dies.

Jennie Nash

So you said that it was a little harder to plan out the—to engineer a thriller and the complexities. And we all know that you are a very fast and efficient writer, so I'd be curious to hear: how much time do you set aside to get the complexities and engineering of the thriller versus the romance? What's the time demand of that?

Sarina Bowen

I think, at least at this point, thrillers still require twice as much work in terms of, like, days.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. It's like six months instead of three.

Jennie Nash

Yeah. Wow. Wow. And is the moving back and forth from one to the other—do you—are you finding that satisfying? Are you finding it difficult? Like, what's that like? Because I know right now—well, you—you're working on a romance, and then thriller number three is coming up. So do you—how are you making those transitions?

Sarina Bowen

Well, I think any writer would agree that the book you're not working on today is always the one that seems more appealing.

Jennie Nash

It's always a better book…

Sarina Bowen

Right?!

Jennie Nash

Such a good book.

Sarina Bowen

So, of course, I'm in the finishing part, on the romance that I'm working on, which is, everybody knows, the hardest part, where you have to make all the toughest decisions. So I just cannot wait to write that thriller.

Jennie Nash

Do you—are you—do you cheat? Are you cheating on your romance? Like, do you—do you cheat and do a little research on the new—new thriller?

Sarina Bowen

Well, I've actually written part of that thriller already.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

I wrote part of it, and then I had to stop and finish this other one. So it's not cheating exactly. It's how I had to do my crazy schedule this year, because I had two deadlines in 2024, and they're closer together than I could execute, like, a whole book in each. But cheating is a wonderful thing to do, because when you're like, technically, I'm writing the romance this month, and almost all my time is spent on that—but when you give your brain permission to, like, not be finishing that other book, it goes in all these exciting places, and it comes up with stuff for you. So even though I'm writing a romance this month, I have made notes in my notebook for, like, four other books, some of which I might never write.

Jennie Nash

Oh, that's so funny. Well...

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Jennie Nash

And—and are they thrillers or romance?

Sarina Bowen

Oh, just that—we're all over the place here. Like, I have made notes for... a romance in an ongoing series, that I'm not sure if I'm continuing, for an unrelated romance that I might never write, and I have, like, scribbled down plot frameworks for unrelated books in two other genres that I probably—probably will never write.

Jennie Nash

So it's interesting—that's an interesting habit that you're talking about. Because I often see with writers—there was an agent, and I can't remember who it is, which pains me—but they said something that was just so funny and so clever, which was a criticism of a writer who—the phrasing would be, you know, "puts everything and the kitchen sink into every book." But the way this agent framed it was, it was "no note left behind." You know, every note you have goes into the book—and that—that's not good. And you have such a restraint. It's not like, oh, here's a good idea, I'm going to shoehorn it into what I'm writing now. I'm going to shoehorn it into the thriller. I'm going to, you know, wedge it in here. You—this restraint of where an idea belongs or doesn't belong, or that it might get written or might not get written—where do you think that discernment or restraint comes from?

Sarina Bowen

You know, it doesn't feel like restraint when I'm in the middle of trying to finish a book. Like, every book feels like—so messy. You know, it's like, if I'm building a roller coaster, like, the parts are laying all over the field right now. Like, that's how it feels at every moment. And even for the end of this book, I have, like, written—scribbled down ideas for, like, nine different scenes, and they're not all going to make it, and they're going to have to duke it out.

Jennie Nash

The scenes are going to have to duke it out?

Sarina Bowen

Yes. And, like, oh, this would be cute. Oh, that would be cute. Oh, this would be cute. But you can't have them all—like, they're not—that just doesn't work. So I'm looking for the best, most efficient way to execute that emotional arc that the end of this book needs.

Jennie Nash

Yeah. yeah.

Sarina Bowen

And I do—okay, fine, maybe it is restraint, because I do care about efficiency. Like, I'm not just going to write and write and write and write because I had a cute little thing that I wanted somebody to say. Because in order to put all that stuff in, I'm going to need too much, like, filler—junk.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, that is restraint, Sarina. That is totally restraint.

Sarina Bowen

Well, honestly, I think one of my strengths—like, writers don't think about their strengths all that often, to be honest. Like, we only think about the stuff that's hard. But one of my strengths has always been that every scene is accomplishing, like, two or three things. Like, no bit of dialog is ever just in there because my brain spat it out when I was sitting at a keyboard. Like, it has to be doing something.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

So I have to look at this little collection of cute scenes and—um—make it do something. Just yesterday, I thought, wouldn't it be funny if the rookie on the team that shows up for this new season to start—you know, after the wedding—spoke entirely in Gen Alpha slang, like my 19-year-old? So I wrote, like, a little bit of dialog where he does this in a—in the rink, and—and the—the main character of the book is like, oh, my God, I don't even know what you just said. And I'm like, oh, I'm so cute and funny. This is going to be great. And then I realized that I just didn't need a bit of discussion in the rink. So I moved that conversation to a different spot, where the heroine was also present. And, like, she jumps in and responds in Gen Alpha slang and to—like, to solve his issue. And the hero is impressed. So, you know, I just needed—it was a fun idea, but I needed it to work harder.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

And then I found a way for it to work harder. But if I hadn't, then that bit was just going to have to be cut. It could just go somewhere else—a different book, a different day.

Jennie Nash

There's a scene in The Five Year Liewhere the main character is on a bus—a very long bus trip with her small child—and it goes on for some time at a place in the novel where the tension is pretty high. And I read it—I read it three times, actually, because I was like, what is going on here? What's... what am I—what am I supposed to take away? Like, what? What's happening here? What's—you know, what is the work that this scene is doing? I was curious about it because it felt—the feeling really shifted for me as the reader, where it was a tension reliever for one thing. Like, the tension was really high, and so it was a sort of a chance to breathe. And then there was something that happened on the bus trip that made things much, much worse for this character, so that they're showing up in an even more vulnerable place. Like—and I started seeing the layers of what was happening on that bus trip. And that—I think that's another strength you have—is that the—you don't show your hand. The reader has to work if they want to figure out what—what are all these scenes doing? Like, because you're just in it as the reader. But it was... it was sort of beautiful. I sort of loved that scene because I saw—well, I was trying to figure it out, but I saw, oh, I see what's happening here. I know what she's doing. Like, this is cool. I don't know, you're very good at—uh, like I said, not showing your hand. It's not—you don't see the mechanism of the engineer when you're reading the books.

Sarina Bowen

Well, thank you. That scene—I actually am. It's the first thing I wrote for that book.

Jennie Nash

What?!

Sarina Bowen

Which is—yeah, I know.

Jennie Nash

That is so interesting.

Sarina Bowen

It comes really deep in the book. That's why Jennie is so surprised, because it's, like, near the end. But I wrote that scene in my head—which, you know, you sort of almost never do—five years before the book came out. Like, I was—I was wandering around this town nearby while my kid took a violin lesson, and I thought of that. I'm like; wouldn't it be terrifying if you were on a bus, you know? And I thought it—like, I scared myself with this idea of how vulnerable she is at that moment in time. Like you said, it's a moment of safety, and it sort of is a little bit, because, you know, nobody can get her on the bus. But at the same time, if you read the prologue, you realize that, like, it's not really a moment of safety because—and then also, then I did that thing that makes her even more vulnerable. And that's the thing that scared me. Like, I'm like, oh, that would be really bad. And then I sort of filed that away in my head until I figured out what book it fit in.

Jennie Nash

Oh yeah, it's brutal. It's a brutal moment.

Sarina Bowen

But then—but that actual scene, like, that is a really long bus ride, and I had to keep cutting that scene. Like, I wrote it, and I cut it down, and I cut it down, and I cut it down, because I didn't want it to drag. And it was actually really hard to get that right. But people mention that scene to me a lot, so I'm staying—and they don't say, hey, that scene lasted too long.

Jennie Nash

No—well, when I say it's a moment of safety, it's—what I mean is, she's gotten away from the immediate threat. So there's a—there's a chance to sort of take a little bit of a deep breath. But as it goes on and on, it—that scene—she's on all the different buses, is what I mean. She's moving toward- like, there's a lot that could be really bad. So it was great. So to wrap up, can you tell us what you want to tell us about Dying to Meet You? So to entice those who like to be—match wits with the writer and be in a tense thriller, and there's a sort of haunted house vibe to this one. Tell us. Tell us about this book.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so—who doesn't love a creepy old mansion? That's kind of what this book is about. But also, the dedication to this book tells, like, a lot of what I was thinking about when I wrote it. And the dedication is to my sons: "Thank you for sharing your location with me so that I could think up the terrifying plot of this book." And when there's—when my older son had got his—got an e-bike is when I first opened the—that app where I could see his location, because I wanted to make sure he got places safely, because I was really terrified. But that—the weird thing of being able to watch him in real time, like his—the blue dot move on the map—um, I thought that was, like, so existentially creepy. And I just thought—kept thinking to myself, like, what's the worst thing that could happen with this? Like, if I'm—if I find this creepy, you know, what if it really was, you know? And that's just kind of where I went from that. And it turned out to be a really good time.

Jennie Nash

My husband likes this app called FlightAware that tracks the airplanes. And when my children fly, he's always saying, "Oh, they're over wherever." And I'm like, nope, nope. I want none of this information. I do not wish to know where in the sky my child is hanging,

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jennie Nash

I don't wish to know that.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I get it. I get it.

Jennie Nash

So, Dying to Meet You—out now. So good. Before that, The Five Year Lie. There's a third one coming that you'll be writing soon. So we get Sarina Bowen—romance, thriller, back and forth for the foreseeable future?

Sarina Bowen

I hope so. Let's keep it going.

Jennie Nash

Awesome. Well, thank you for chatting about genre and how you do it. It's always fun to get inside your brain. And for our listeners—until next time, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess Lahey

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Take a Break Jul 25, 2025

Jess, Sarina, Jennie and Jess are all here to talk about taking a break from various angles: the mechanics angle, the guilt angle, the fear angle, the identity angle and inspiration angle.

Mechanics.

* Leave yourself notes about the project when you leave off, for example, “The next thing that needs to happen is this…” so when you come back, you know how to get back into the project. This is Sarina’s daily practice, but it really helps when she has to leave a project behind. This can be especially helpful when you have to go away for an unexpected emergency.

* Jennie adds that the only way you can do this is if you have a place to keep and find those notes to yourself. In one of your 47 notebooks or in the document itself? Or, as Jess adds, on the side of the cardboard box you use for trash in your basement workshop that you almost recycle by accident.

* Jennie also notes that you have to have intentionality, to know what you are writing so you can know what comes next, whether that’s in your outline, inside outline, or whatever.

* Jennie has a little notebook she brings on vacation with her and she downloads those ideas into that just before going to sleep at night when she’s away.

* These vacation inspiration moments are much like shower thoughts, part of the magic of our brain unhooking, getting into deep default mode network, and becoming its most creative.

* Sarina mentioned an article about how walking makes you more creative, also a study in why tapping into the default mode network is so effective as a practice.

Fear

* The only way to get over this is to sit down and do it. Open the document. Just start.

* Jennie points out that getting back into a manuscript when it’s disappeared feels horrifying but it’s much easier than it sounds and has happened to one of our frequent guests, Sarah Stewart Taylor, when her then-toddler created a password for the document that was not recoverable. She had to give in to the fact that her book was gone, and recreate it out of her memory.

Guilt and Identity

* It only took Jess until her fiftieth year to figure out that her process - of walking, gardening, beekeeping, musing - is a part of writing, and that’s cool.

* Can you be a writer if you are not actively writing? Yes, if research, planning, thinking and otherwise cogitating is a part of your writing process. Get over it. The words have to land on the page eventually, of course, but if you are doing both, have grace for the not-actively-writing part of the writing process.

#AmReading

Tess Gerritsen’s series set in Maine (The Spy Coast and The Summer Guests) and, once she finished those two books, Jess went back to The Surgeon, where it all started for Tess Gerritsen. Stay tuned for our interview with her!

Andy Weir’s Project Hail Mary (Don’t watch the movie trailer if you plan to read the book!)

Sarah Harman’s All the Other Mothers Hate Me

Amy Tintera’s Listen for the Lie

Rosemerry Wahtola Trommer The Unfolding

Richard Osman’s The Thursday Murder Club (coming to Netflix in August!)

Janelle Brown’s What Kind of Paradise

Want to submit a first page to Booklab? Fill out the form HERE.

Writers and readers, KJ here, if you love #AmWriting and I know you do, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly #AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been #AmDoing: sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done, which I mean that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at kjdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing.

Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 458 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Writers and readers, KJ here. If you love Hashtag AmWriting, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly Hashtag AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been ‘hashtag am-doing’, sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done—which, I mean, that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at KJdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing or of course in the show notes for this podcast. Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.

Multiple Speakers

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the weekly podcast, while writing all the things—short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction. And somebody told me they thought this was a recorded intro. And I just want you to know I do this live every time, which is why there's this, come on, there's more variety here, people, and you should know that. Anyway, here we are, all four of us, for we got a topic today. But before we do that, we should introduce ourselves in order of seniority, please.

Jess Lahey

I'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And I laugh, because when you said seniority, all I could do was think of us in our little eave space in my old house, down the street from you, not knowing what the heck we were doing. But yeah, we've been doing this for a long time now. You can find my... you can find my journalism at The New York Times, at The Washington Post, at The Atlantic, and everything else at Jessicalahey.com.

Sarina Bowen

I'm Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of many novels. My new one this fall is called Thrown for a Loop, and it will be everywhere that books are sold, which is very exciting to me, and all about me at Sarinabowen.com.

Jennie Nash

I am the newest of the co-hosts, and so happy to be among this group of incredibly smart and prolific and awesome women, and I'm the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, which is a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And you can find us at bookcoaches.com or authoraccelerator.com.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I'm KJ Dell'Antonia. I'm the author of three novels, the latest of which is Playing the Witch Card, and the most televised of which is The Chicken Sisters—Season Two coming soon to a Hallmark network near you. And I'm also the former editor and lead writer of The Motherlode, making me our... well, and Jennie too, like the crossover. I've done too many different kinds of writing—probably should have stayed in my lane. Oh well. And our plan today—as we're recording, it is summer. And a pretty frequent thing that happens in the summer is that you need to put your project down for a little while, because you have house guests, because you're going on the kind of vacation that does not involve working, because you just need a break or you're sick. That's not really a summer thing, but it definitely happens. Anyway, we wanted to talk about how, you know, what—what do you do to make that work better?

Jess Lahey

I think a lot about being a parent and needing to take a break too. And you know, this is something I talk a lot about with, you know, other writers who are sort of struggling, especially since I read a lot about parenting—who are struggling to—with that guilt of, you know, like, I feel like I owe my time to the words, and I feel like I owe my time to the children. And finding a way to take a break from the words and not feel guilty about not being with the words can be really, really hard, especially when you're going gung-ho on something. So I want to make sure that we figure out a way to have a break without guilt. That's like the big question I get a lot—is, how do you, you know, either from the parenting or the writing side?

KJ Dell'Antonia

And I was thinking about it more from a mechanics side.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

How do you put this thing aside for a week or two weeks or even a month? And know where you were?

Jess Lahey

Right.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And come back and feel like it does not take you forever to dig in.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. Um, so we've got the guilt question. We've got the mechanics of how to do it. And I would just like to add a layer, which is the fear factor.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

I have this thing where, when I walk away from a manuscript, I become afraid of it. So it seems scarier when I take a break. Like, even if it's not true—that I don't know where I am or that I become unmoored from the channel of that book and it seems intimidating to go back to.

Jess Lahey

Can I add one more layer as well? And that's the identity factor. You know, if I identify as a writer, what am I if I'm not actively writing something? And that messes my head up a lot. So I would love to add that added layer in as well and make sure we discuss that.

Jennie Nash

Well, and I have something totally different from all of those, which is that I often find when I go on vacation, I am more inspired and motivated to work on my project than I was in my real life. It tends to light a fire under me. So then I'm faced with that choice of, you know, wanting to really lean into it. And, you know, just like a really small piece of that story is, I love to write on airplanes. I just love it. Give me a very long flight, and it's—I just want to work and not talk to anybody. And, you know, it's awesome. So I feel some guilt around that. When I'm with my family, it’s like, don't talk to me, don't watch movies. You know, I'm—I'm enjoying my plane time, doing my work. So I have that reality.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, that's the choice that you have to start with, is, am I just, you know, can I not? Am I—do I need to accept the reality, which is that this is a beach trip with extended family and some, you know, my—to multiple generations, and I inevitably am going to be the person who is cooking and figuring out where the garbage has to go in the Airbnb? I should, you know, I—I will feel better if I just accept the reality that I'm not going to wake and work. Or, you know, is it a—is it a trip where you can schedule some work time and want to? Or is it a trip where you affirmatively want to give yourself a break? Or is it also, I mean, I sort of think that the last possibility—well, there are probably multiples—is I just want to touch this every day. So I feel like you can kind of—you're like, you're either like, just—no, not going to happen, not going to pretend it's going to happen, not going to feel the guilt. That's the—that's where we are. And there's sort of a, I just want to open the file every day and keep it warm and friendly. And on, you know these three—three days I have an hour.

Jess Lahey

So let's do this. Let's—let's do mechanics first, since that's the real nuts-and-bolts stuff, and then we'll talk about all the touchy-feely stuff after that. So let's do mechanics first. It sounds like you have thoughts, KJ…?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, I was actually thinking that Sarina did this pretty recently.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, that's true.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. Like, you know, I, um, I have found mechanically that leaving yourself notes every time you walk away from your manuscript is a good thing. So this is sort of like a best practices in your life idea, where I will have a writing day, and it's done now, and I'm going to get up and go do other things in my life. If I pick up my notebook, and I write down where I am—like, okay, and the next thing that has to happen is this—like, it could be really short or not. But taking better notes about the structure of the thing I'm working on is serving me on so many levels that it just slots right in here. Like, I took a big trip in April, and I thought I might work, but then I didn't, and I really seamlessly came right back in, because I knew where I was, and I avoided a lot of my own fear. So, if the practices that help you become a good day-to-day writer also can be practices that help you in this very instance, the mechanics of picking up your book again are that you left yourself a note right in your document, um, or in your notebook, that says, and here's what I think is supposed to happen next. And, yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's going to be gold for an unexpected break too, because that happens, you know, right? You get one of those phone calls, and it's a week before you're back or more.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. I love this practice. This is one of those things I forget to do.

Jennie Nash

I feel like I—I feel like I have to add to that a couple things. That the only reason you can do that is, A, if you have a place to take notes, which—which could be your, the document itself that you're working on. But Sarina talked about a notebook, right? You have a place that you know, that you can find that, which is not an insignificant thing to have, or...

Sarina Bowen

Correct!

Jennie Nash

Right?! Or, in the case of me, it's like, I have 47 notebooks. Well, which one did I put the note in?

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jennie Nash

But then the second thing is, I mean, this is something that I find so inspiring about the way you work, Sarina, and it—and it's a thing that I teach—is you have to know what you're writing, you know, in order to know where you are, what the structure is, and what you're doing, and to ask those—like, you have to have done the thought work of what, what it is you're trying to do and what your intention is. Otherwise, you sort of don't ever know where you are or where you're going. So...

Sarina Bowen

Right, but that's on two levels. Like, you could—let's just say you have successfully written yourself an Inside Outline, you know, the way that you do it—you still might need that granular thing.

Jennie Nash

Oh yeah!

Sarina Bowen

Like, you might know where you are in the arc of the book, but you might actually need the note that's like, "And now we're going to wash the dishes." I mean, let's please not put that in the novel, but you know what I mean.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, yeah. But that intentionality of, on the big picture, what am I doing, and on the small picture—in this chapter, in this scene, in this moment, and with this character—what was I... how'd that fit into the whole? What was I thinking? And those things are not—they're not easy. Like, we're talking about them like, "Oh, you just..." You know, like I was saying, what if you have 47 notebooks? That literally is a problem I have. It's like, I know I wrote this note down, and I don't know where I put it—digitally or analog.

Sarina Bowen

Right. I confess I actually do still have this problem. Like, even with all of my best practices, like, put into—sometimes it's like, well, is that in the document, or is it in my notebook? And then—or I thought about it at four in the morning and actually didn't write it down anywhere. And I'm looking anyway...

Jennie Nash

Oh, I do that too. I absolutely do that too. I'm convinced that I left a note while I was driving—that's a thing I often do. I'll leave—I'll have Siri write me a note, and then somehow it doesn't appear, or it's like, I know I did this, I know I asked her to do this... you know.

Jess Lahey

I actually have—I was doing the recycling, and I realized that I was in big trouble because three sides of a box I'd had down in the basement with me while I was working on a project—I was doing something with my, getting some beehives ready—and I was listening to an audiobook that is research for a project I'm working on, and I had scribbled some really important notes to myself about how I was supposed to start a chapter on. And it was a great start. It was like a whole paragraph on the three sides of the box, with an old Sharpie I found down in the basement. And then I realized I almost recycled, like, some really useful outline stuff.

Multiple Speakers

[all laughing]

Jess Lahey

So normally—no, so I actually have them. While you guys are talking about something else, since we do see each other while we're recording this, I'll show you later. But the thing that I normally do is either in the document, like right where I left off, or in my main notebook, because I am so bad at finding those notes that I have strewn all over my office or on the side of a cardboard box.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I have had the problem lately of I'm not in a manuscript, and that it's much easier when you're in a manuscript to come back to a manuscript, but I'm in a notebook full of assorted random Blueprint challenge, you know, like trying to—I'm, I'm in figuring out where this is going mode, which means I do a lot of thinking while I'm not working that then hopefully I go and write down. But it also means that I frequently sit down and I'm like, well, am I going to think about who these people are? Am I going to think about what the plot is? What am I going to do? So I've been trying to leave myself like a task, something that will, that will just get me, get me back in, because sometimes that's the problem. I, you know, I open the notebook, and there's no obvious thing to do, and the next thing I know, I'm buying running shoes.

Jennie Nash

Well, since we're talking about nuts and bolts, when I said that I often get inspired when I go away or go on vacation and I want to work, I'm not talking about I'm going to go sit in a library or coffee shop for three hours. What, what I mean by that is I often have ideas that I want to capture, and so I have a little notebook that I bring on vacation, and what I like to do is go to bed early enough that I can download all the things I thought that day. I need that space and time to—if it's, if I'm working on something, it's in my head. It's not going to not be in my head. And so the one sort of new mechanical thing that I, that I do, is have that "vacation notes notebook" with me.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I always carry one, and I never use it. So there's that.

Jess Lahey

I get—I am at my most inspired to write when I specifically can't write, which is usually behind the wheel of my car. So I use, in my car, I have been known to, you know, either scribble on things—which, totally don't do that—or to record myself on my phone. But then, audio things, I'm particularly bad at going back and listening to; that seems like it's just too much work. So those tend to get lost a lot. I need to come up with a better system for that. But it is predictable that if I am in a place where I cannot physically write, I will be at my most inspired to write.

Jennie Nash

Jess, that's kind of what I'm talking about. That's what happens to me, is I might say I'm leaving all work behind. I'm going off the grid. I'm not doing the thing. And that's when I most want to do the thing. And I, like, my brain seems to really get inspired. What? What do you think that's about? Is that...

Jess Lahey

I, you know, I, I was very worried that it was my sort of, um—sorry, what's the word I'm looking for? It was—it's my, my brain's way of saying, "Oh, you couldn't possibly work now, so let's have some of the best ideas so that you seem like a good little doobie writer, but it's physically impossible for you to write now." It's just a really weird thing, and maybe one of the other things I thought about is that I'm often listening to a book that I'm really into, which also inspires me to write. I've been listening to a lot of really great books lately, and you can't listen to a book—even one that inspires you deeply—and actually write at the same time, which is another quandary.

Sarina Bowen

You know what, though? This is not uniquely your brain messing with you—like, this is shower thoughts.

Multiple Speakers

[Overlapping: “Mm-hmm.” “Sorry.” “Ohhh...”]

Sarina Bowen

But everybody—everybody has those great ideas in the shower, and it's because you have unhooked yourself. You are just in there with the shampoo and the conditioner and that razor that you probably should change the blade with, and like, you know, there is nowhere to write and nothing to do. So your brain is like, I am free right now to unclench and actually solve this problem of chapter 17, and that's what—that's what happens.

Jess Lahey

It is my duty, whenever we mention this, to bring up that—years ago, Ron Lieber, the write... uh... the "Your Money" columnist at The New York Times, told me that he has a waterproof little whiteboard situation that’s— that lives in the shower. He and his wife, Jodi Kantor—amazing writer as well, Pulitzer Prize–winning writer, even— that these would be people who might just need a waterproof whiteboard in the shower with them.

Sarina Bowen

But would that ruin the magic…?

KJ Dell'Antonia

It might just...

Multiple Speakers

[all laughing]

Jess Lahey

If you had a place to write it down, your brain would—like—be... your brain would say, "Sorry, I'm not coming up with good ideas."

Sarina Bowen

Because I don't think I am willing to take this risk. I take a lot of risks in my life, but this one—like; we do not mess with the shower thoughts. I think, I think...

KJ Dell'Antonia

So, so what do we do if you didn't do any of this? If what—you know—what are—you're listening to this podcast, coming back from your trip, and you're like, I... was writing... something...

Sarina Bowen

You know what, though? I almost feel that we should point out the fact that, like, that is kind of unlikely. Like, somebody should feel welcome to take this trip and to have all those thoughts, and even if you didn't write them down on your whiteboard in the shower or on your handy notebook, like, I would argue that unhitching yourself in the first place possibly leads to a lot of creative development that, even if you don't capture it in the moment, is still with you. Like, I had this fantastic trip in April. I thought I was going to work, and then I did not, and it was, like, the best two weeks of my life. So then, the other day, my husband said, “Hey, there's a new article you need to read in The Athletic,” which is a New York Times sports blog, and I have just pulled it up so that we can recommend it, about how walking makes you a better problem solver. And the framing story of this article is about a retired baseball coach, but, um, but then, when they got around to studying it, um, they said this question planted the seed for the first set of studies to measure if walking produces more creativity. In the series of experiments, Oppezzo and Schwartz [Marily Oppezzo & Daniel L. Schwartz] asked 176 college students to complete different creative thinking tasks while sitting, walking on a treadmill, walking outside through campus, or being pushed in a wheelchair. In one example, the students had to come up with atypical uses for random objects, and anyway, on average, the students’ creative output increased by 60% when they were walking.

Jennie Nash

That's so cool!

Sarina Bowen

And the article is—it's so cool—it's called An MLB manager found value in long walks. Research suggests it’s a ‘brain-changing power’.

Jess Lahey

I have put a spot for it in the show notes. And I should mention that this is all part of what we call the default mode network. This is the—the part of our brain that is the wandering, most creative part of our brain. And we can get there lots of ways. Walking is a fantastic way to do it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Sarina, if you do have the fear of the manuscript when you're coming back to it, like, take—you know, travel back in time to maybe when you were a little less confident in your abilities. What do you do to get past the fear and sit down?

Sarina Bowen

There is only one solution, and that is sitting down. And I'm not so great at this—like, when, when the fear creeps up on me, in spite of my best intentions, man, I will do anything to avoid that sucker. And then when I finally do, and I wade back in, almost every time my response is, Oh, this isn't so bad. I know where—I kind of remember now. It's going to be fine, you know. But it's so easy to put off work out of fear. It's—it's the—it's the one big obstacle. Like, I don't put work off for other reasons, you know, because I'm tired or whatever. It's because I'm afraid that there's something fundamentally wrong with the project, or fundamentally wrong with me, and that is almost always what's keeping me from doing good work.

Jennie Nash

There was, back in the day before computers became what they are now, people would frequently lose manuscript drafts. It was just much harder to save your work. And I can't—I can't explain exactly what changed, but it was. People frequently lost huge chunks of their work if they didn't actively back up. And when I was a new coach and working with writers who would lose their manuscripts, they would be—understandably—beyond devastated. And this often was full manuscripts, just unrecoverable, full manuscripts. And it was true that if they sat down to recreate what they'd written, it would really flow from them, for that same reason—it was still in their brain. They—they had—they'd written it, so there was a sense that they had, they owned it, and they could sit down, and it was kind of quite remarkable. And I would confidently say to them, just sit down, start writing. I think it will come to you, and it always did. It's very interesting.

Jess Lahey

There's an example—we've interviewed Sarah Stewart Taylor many times now, and she tells the story of, a long time ago, her youngest managed to crawl across the computer in such a way as to create a password for the document itself, and there's nothing that can be done. She was on the phone with Word—with Microsoft—for a long time, and they're like, look, this is a password you created. We can't—that's not recoverable. So she had to go and recreate—I believe she was about a third of the way into a book—but she said that it actually flowed really well, and that, you know, she'd had it, it had been cooking and stuff like that. So that massive fear of, oh my gosh, how am I going to get back into this project when it has just disappeared? It turned out to be not a thing—that it actually came really easily to her.

Jennie Nash

Jess, you're bringing all the very weird stories today, and I'm so here for it—notes on boxes, babies making passwords.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, well, and the hard part—the funny part about that—is like, you cannot recreate a toddler, essentially, like bashing away at your keyboard and creating a password that's never coming back. Sorry.

Sarina Bowen

There is a writer—she once gave a talk that I heard—a very successful young adult author, Cynthia Leitich Smith, and she apparently wrote a discovery draft of the novel to, like, figure out what it was about and then deleted it and started over on purpose.

Jennie Nash

On purpose?!

Sarina Bowen

Yes, and everyone in the room gasped because, of course, you know that I just rather, like, been in a lot of pain. I'd rather have oral surgery than delete my first draft of a novel. But, um... but yeah, if she was unafraid to get back there after that kind of break, then I think we can all handle it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

This is true. I've never deleted a draft, but I have just gone—poofft—"Let's, let's, let's start again." In fact, almost every time. Kind of sad. I'm doing it now, actually, but it's not a full draft. Anyway. So take the breaks, right? That's what we're saying here.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, take the break.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You can break however you do it, you know, whichever thing you pick, and if you don't do what you thought you were going to do, that's cool, too. It's going to—it's going to be fine.

Jess Lahey

Can I mention something that has—so that now that we've sort of done mechanics, we've done a little bit about the fear thing, the—the identity thing—has been really hard for me, in that I have these two books that I've written, and I've written a bunch and researched a bunch of things over the past couple of years, and people keep asking me, what are you writing? What are you writing? And the reality is, like, I'm not. I'm working on something, I'm researching something, and I've written a lot of things. In fact, now I'm holding up my cardboard box pieces—I found them. But the day—I'm not, like, meeting a 1200-words-a-day goal. And sometimes I feel really... I feel like a fraud. I feel like a massive fraud. Like, what kind of writer is not actually sitting down and writing 2,000 words a day? And that's incredibly difficult for me. Like, I don't deserve to call myself a writer, even though I have a couple of books out there and I wrote—you know—did all this other stuff. But the thing that I have—there are a couple of things that have really helped—and one of those is to understand that and have some grace for myself around what I happen to know full well what my process is. Yes, I wrote a couple of book proposals that didn't turn into books, but it was only through writing the book proposals that I discovered that those books weren't something that I wanted to write, and only through doing all of this research on audiobooks and writing on the side of cardboard boxes. That's the way I've written every one of my books. And it's not—it's just what works for me. And so having a little bit of this, you know, this feeling of insecurity as a writer, I don't think is—I don't think is unique to me. I think a lot of writers feel this, and it's...

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, all the rest of them are...

Jess Lahey

All of them are really...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, no, everyone else is just like, well, of course. No, I'm not an imposter.

Jess Lahey

But what's great is when I sit down with other writers and I say, what is an integral part of your process that isn't actually about putting the words on the page? That's not some bogus, like, excuse for not writing. You know, the gardening is part of it, the—the research is part of it, the listening to audiobooks is part of it. The writing—or the walking—is part of it. And it's not just a part of it. It is an incredibly important part of it for me, and—and understanding that and owning that about myself has been really a good thing for allowing myself to not—I'm not productive when I just feel guilty or like an imposter every day. It—that's not good for my process. But none of you ever feel that, right?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Or apparently the people around you…

Jess Lahey

The other thing that has been—well, the other thing that's been really, really helpful is the—and especially from the parenting perspective—is, or the marriage perspective, or the dog perspective, or the bees perspective, is I need to be fully committed to the thing right in front of me when I'm doing that thing. And if I'm feeling guilty about not being with the words when I'm with my children, or not being with my children when I'm with the words, that is awful, too. And so I have found that when I have to let go of all the other stuff and be fully, 100% in, I'm highly distractible. And so if I'm not fully in the thing, and that—all that guilt of not being over there doing that other thing—that's just taking away from the actual process of writing or researching or whatever it is, or taking care of my bees. I have to be fully in the thing I'm in and not feel guilty about not doing something else. And that's been a growth moment for me, too. It only took me—how old am I? I'm 55 now, and I got there somewhere around 50, I think.

Jennie Nash

There is also—I mean, I—I love what you're saying, and that is a thing to strive for, for sure—to be, to be present in whatever you're doing. But there is also this idea—I always think of it as mental real estate—that you leave for your project, for your idea, for your writing, for your book. That you, that you have a space in your brain devoted to that, and that you visit, whether or not you're producing words. And I think that that, too, is writing. I think, in some ways, that's more writing than sitting at the keyboard. I mean, I always object to the process of just putting words down. And a lot of the things that challenge writers to do that, because they skip that part—the thinking part and the having-the-part—you know, the real estate-in-your-brain part. And I think this connects to the shower—shower thoughts, right? You're gardening or beekeeping, you're walking, you're thinking, you're writing proposals and throwing them out. You're doing all that, that, that's writing. That's the—that's writing in my mind.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And it's not... I mean the other thing we do say a lot is, you know, "Good writing comes last."

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You've got to do the other stuff. So you can do it on vacation, or you could not do it on vacation. This—I don't think—we just—maybe I—this was my idea, and I think maybe I just needed the reassurance. I have a couple weeks coming up where I'm probably not going to do anything, and I just needed a reminder that that's cool. That's cool. It's all right. It's going to be okay. That's what I—if y'all could just pat me on the head and say "it's going to be okay."

Multiple Speakers

[Overlapping voices: “Mm-hmm,” “Sorry,” “Ohhh...”]

KJ Dell'Antonia

Six or ten times an hour, that might be about what I need.

Jess Lahey

Well and one of the other things that has been really cool this summer is I've been on a streak of really good books. And every one of those really good books that I've been reading has made me like, Oh, I could do this. Oh my gosh, I could do that. I could write like her. I could I could write this other thing. And it's, it's all that energy is good and it's all a good thing to sit on a beach and read a book, or sit in the woods and read a book. It's all great.

KJ Dell'Antonia

All right, everybody, go collect some energy. Hey, on that note, who's read something good lately?

Jennie Nash

I want to hear all these great books, Jess.

Jess Lahey

So I really have been on this roll. I've already talked about Atmosphere in an earlier podcast, the Taylor Jenkins Reid thing. But then I've been on this Tess Gerritsen jag, because we're—I'm interviewing Tess Gerritsen later this week. You guys will get to hear her later this summer. I am... Sarina and KJ, I believe, read the first of her new series that she has set in Maine and with a couple of retired CIA agents and spies in Maine. And then I enjoyed those so much that I went all the way back to the beginning—to her first book, The Surgeon, which I didn't even know was turned into this whole series called Rizzoli and Isles. It's a television show—I had no idea. And now I'm deep into Tess Gerritsen land. I'm still—I found out that there's going to be a movie of the book by the guy who wrote The Martian, Andy...

Sarina Bowen

Andy Weir

Jess Lahey

Andy Weir, thank you. And I was warned very specifically on social media not to watch the preview—the trailer—for the new movie that is going to be coming out with Ryan Gosling later on this summer, because it ruins the book. The book is called Hail Mary… Project Hail Mary. So I very quickly turned away from social media and said, Ooh, I better read the book really quickly before anyone ruins it for me, and I am enjoying the heck out of Project Hail Mary. So it's been really fun. Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

I am reading a book that KJ put into my hands. And the fun part is that I don't remember why she put it into my hands, you know. Like, why did I pick up this book? Like, it happens all the time. It's called All the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harman.

Jennie Nash

What a great title.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, like, I picked up this book, and my husband said, oh my God, what a great title. And so, yes, that's super cool. And it's very voice-y. And the—the flap copy has the—a premise that smacks of a thriller, but the voice isn't like all deep, dark thriller. And so I think maybe the contrast of those two things might be why KJ put it into my hands. But I am enjoying the fabulous writing, and I'm—I'm still at the beginning, but the way she introduces characters is really sharp. So even that alone is like a little master class on introducing characters.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, that was why I gave it to you, was that we'd been talking about, you know, the voice, and also because we'd been talking about, like, funny thrillers versus thriller-y thrillers. And this isn't funny, but it's super voice-y. It reminds me of the one you pressed into my hands, which maybe is a little funnier—Listen for the Lie.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, yeah.

Jennie Nash

Well, I'm reading something very different, which is not—not very beachy. I go to a yoga class that is taught by a middle grade English teacher, and she runs her yoga class sort of like English class, where she always starts with a poem and throughout the class, she refers back to the poem in a very embodied way that you're doing the yoga around. And then she reads the poem again at the end. It's—its spectacular. She's—she's so popular at our yoga studio that you have to, you know, fight your way in. But she read a poem by a woman named Rosemerry Wahtola Trommer—and that’s Rosemerry like Christmas Merry, so: Rosemerry. And the book is called The Unfolding. And I say it's very different from what you are all mentioning because this woman experienced the death of her young son and father in very close proximity, and her poems are ostensibly about grief, but they're just filled with joy and hope and delight. And, you know, it's kind of that thing you're talking about, Sarina—that it's—here's a book about tragedy and grief, but it's—there's something about the voice that just is—is fresh. And they're just—they're just stunning, just absolutely stunning. And I have gone and ordered all her books, of which there are—are many. So she's a new voice to me, and I just—I can't get enough of them. They're incredible.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, here I am going to go back to the fiction summary read-y thing. I am very late to The Thursday Murder Club party, but it is joy. It is so much fun—really your sort of classic Agatha Christie stuff, but way, way funnier and more entertaining, with a dash of elderly spies. So we're on that theme. And then I also want to mention, just because I liked it so much—and I'm not sure I want everyone to read it—What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown. This could be your lit fic read of the summer. It's somewhere—but—but it's still a page turner. And I thought the premise was extremely great. Basically, it's: what if the Unabomber had also raised a young daughter with him in the woods on all of his theories, back when the Unabomber was living in the woods, and inadvertently involved her in his first kill before she got away? And now she's an adult looking back at what happened. And Janelle Brown is a Silicon Valley person. She's really steeped in this culture. She really knows this world. It's a really good book—plus super entertaining.

Jennie Nash

I love it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's it!

Jess Lahey

I love it when we have a lot of good stuff, because there have been a couple weeks this year where we were like, I was just let down this time around. But yay, I'm loving this.

KJ Dell'Antonia

All right, I think that's it for us this week, kids. Remember, if you support the podcast, you get bonus content every week right now, because we are killing it. You might get Jess's Soup to Nuts series, where she is coaching a fellow writer on creating a nonfiction proposal that also will work with her speaking career. You can join me and Jennie on a weekly basis as we flail our way through the beginnings of writing a couple of books. And of course, on a monthly basis, we've got the Booklab, where we look at the First Pages of novels submitted by listeners. And if you'd like to submit to the Booklab, that'd be great. Jess will put the link in the show notes.

Jess Lahey

Indeed, Jess will. And until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Stephanie Pao has the job we all want. She owns a romance bookstore on wheels. Jul 18, 2025

When Sarina found Stephanie Pao on social media, she knew she had to interview her. Stephanie has the job we all want—she owns a bookstore on wheels. La Fleuria is L.A.’s first mobile romance bookstore, and we are here for it.

Tune in to hear our interview with Stephanie. We’re discussing how she got this idea, where she turned for advice, and how she figures out what to stock and where to park La Fleuria!

Show links include:

#YouAndYourBookstore episode with Mary Laura Philpott

La Fleuria book truck

Stephanie on Instagram

Stephanie’s Linktree

La Fleuria’s popup schedule

Thrown for a Loop, Sarina’s upcoming release (pub date 11/4/25)

TropeTruck, a book truck whose owner generously contributed knowledge

Ingram, the wholesale bookseller we discuss in some detail (because Jess needed to understand how this bookseller access to indie authors works!)

Books Stephanie recommends and loves to sell at La Fleuria:

Yes No Maybe by Jessica Sherry (La Fleuria’s #2 bestseller!)

Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid

All Rhodes Lead Here by Mariana Zapata

Hey, Jess here to talk to you about a new series I have created just for supporters of the #AmWriting Podcast.

But really, whether or not this book ends up selling, whether after this book she ends up having a speaking career, this is about the process of preparing to do that. I hope you’ll join us.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 457 - TRANSCRIPT

Jess Lahey

Hey, Jess here to talk to you about a new series I have created just for supporters of the Hashtag AmWriting podcast. I met an aspiring author and speaker who has an idea for a book that just knocked me over. I said, please, please write that book. This is someone who had an idea that it has a place in the market. It's timely. She's the perfect person to write it, and I asked her—I begged her—if I could please mentor her through this process publicly on the podcast. So, while we're not giving her full name and we're not giving the actual title of the book, because we don't want to hand those things away, I am coaching her through the entire process—from preparing her book proposal to querying an agent. I'm going through the whole thing with her. She knows nothing about the publishing industry. She knows very little about how, you know, one goes about writing a book. And so she essentially—this is, as I mentioned before from soup to nuts, From Authority to Author, and hopefully we'll get her there. But really, whether or not this book ends up selling, whether this book—she ends up having a speaking career—this is about the process of preparing to do that. How do you write a book? How do you prepare to become a speaker on the back of that book? So I hope you join us. This is a series for supporters only. So if you are a free supporter, or if you're a free subscriber right now, consider upgrading. Remember, if you upgrade, you'll also get access to the ability to submit for our First Pages Book Lab and lots of other fun stuff that we put out just for supporters. So come join us. It's a lot of fun.

Multiple Speakers:

Jess Lahey

Welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting podcast. This is the podcast about, oh, writing all the things—the short things, the long things, the nonfiction, the fiction, the poetry, the book proposals, the agent queries—all the things. In reality, though, this podcast is about two things. It is about getting the work done, and flattening the learning curve for other writers. I'm Jess Lahey. I am co-hosting today. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my journalism at The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic.

Sarina Bowen

And I'm Sarina Bowen. I am the author of many romance novels. My next one is called Thrown for a Loop and it's coming from Forever in November, and I could not be more excited. And it is in the vein of romance, publishing, and readership that I have invited a guest to talk to us today because she has done something so outrageously cool that I needed to hear more in person. So please welcome Stephanie Pao, who has started Los Angeles' first romance book truck. She’s become a bookseller, and I am here to hear all about it. Welcome, Stephanie.

Stephanie Pao

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Sarina Bowen

My pleasure. If you wouldn't mind, I would love to hear—how did this happen? Like, how did you decide that the world needed a book truck? Because that is just a cool idea and I never thought of it. And like, so how did you decide to actually make it a thing? And what did you do?

Stephanie Pao

Yes, okay. The idea actually came to me—I lived by the beach, so I was walking by the beach and I saw a vintage Volkswagen truck for sale, and I just couldn't get it out of my mind. It isn't the truck that I have now, but I kept thinking, what could I do with it? And I've always loved books—romance in particular—and I've been looking for something that I could do that kind of took my previous experience, which is marketing, but melded it with something I really enjoyed. And I just thought maybe I could start a book truck. And I started to do research and I saw that there are many book trucks across the country. At the time, I think maybe there was just one or two romance ones and I was lucky enough to be able to speak with someone who had a romance book bus called Trope. She has a bookshop now and she really gave me a lot of confidence that I could probably do this too. I ended up taking a course on bookselling and started looking for a truck. The truck I ended up finding was actually the first truck I found on Facebook Marketplace. The man who was selling it had completely restored it. And he was so excited that I wanted to do this book shop in a truck idea, that he actually helped me and designed all the shelves, and he built it, and he didn't charge me for it.

Sarina Bowen

Oh my goodness!Stephanie Pao

Yeah. So it felt very serendipitous and almost meant to be. And now it's been like two months and I'm having so much fun.

Sarina Bowen

Wow. Wow. Oh my goodness. I feel like you should be teaching a class on how to live, right? You're like, "I'm good at this thing, but I'm really interested in this other thing, and I'm going to stick them together and it's going to be great."

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, I feel like it was a little bit of like manifesting, I guess.

Sarina Bowen

Well, wow, that’s so great. So how many books does your truck hold at once? Like, what is the size of your store?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, so it holds about 350 books, and I've taken to also stacking books on top to display my favorite books. So I think it might hold almost 400.

Sarina Bowen

Okay. And so of course, when we think about the bookstores that we grew up going to—you know, there are these giant cavernous Barnes & Nobles, there are smaller independent bookstores—and they’re all numbering in the thousands. But by specializing in a category that you really love, like suddenly 400 is you know, it’s a workable amount for what romance readers might be looking for on any given day. So, but still, there's a lot of good books in the world. How do you choose?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, I do a mix of like books that I've read and loved. I have been a voracious reader—I've read my whole life—but I've been a voracious reader for a couple of years. I also do a lot of books that I get recommendations from friends or that I just see are very popular online. So I think people will want to find those, but I think it is hard. I'm still figuring out the right balance of what types of romance to carry.

Sarina Bowen

Right. Right. Because we all have our favorite you know, parts of the genre and they might not be the ones that are killing it.

Jess Lahey

But the thing that I'm really excited to hear about is the thing that I love so much about independent booksellers. I get a sense for the bookseller when I go to the bookstore. Like, there are certain bookstores I rave about not necessarily because they're huge, not necessarily because they're beautiful—but because I can tell that when the bookseller recommends something to me; I know who that person is. Or I know the sense of the curation at the store. And that excites me because I feel like I'm in capable hands. So I'm really curious—especially to hear about your curation, and how you decide what you're going to carry—and then I'm also, and I know Sarina is going to ask this question, but in my head, I'm like, how do you find your readers? That's the part I'm so excited to hear about. Like, how do you know where to go? How do the people find you? Because I think that's the magic—is connecting the people with the books. And that’s what I feel like a really great curation does. It says, "If you like this, try this," or, "Oh, you're new to this genre? Let me tell you where you should start with this genre." That’s what’s magic to me about independent booksellers, and the idea of you getting to do it in a very concentrated way with a particular genre is just—it makes me so happy. I'm just so happy you're out there doing this, Stephanie.

Stephanie Pao

Thank you.

Sarina Bowen

So one time I was reading the listing of a literary agent, I think, and somebody had said, "What do you like about this job?" And the agent said, "I get to invest in my own taste." And I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at her job—but also of your job as well. And before we get to “How do you find the readers?”—because that is a really important chapter of this conversation—I just, from the listener standpoint: are you constantly deluged by authors who are like, “Pick me, pick me”? Like, what would you tell an author who is trying to navigate the bookselling world? What have you learned about your end of being a bookseller that an author might need to hear?

Stephanie Pao

Yes. Okay. So first I want to say, like the curation part—My like number two best seller is actually an indie author's book who I love, and I can see from the book selling, like software that I use, that I'm the only bookstore of the 200 plus bookstores that carry her book, and it's the second best seller for me. Like. I've sold over 30 copies in like two months. So I think it really is like the passion of the bookseller, and I have had quite a few authors reach out to me, and they'll come to events. And I feel like it's, I don't have a good process on how I'm vetting all the authors, but I think it's like, if we make a personal connection, I will try to go out of my way to like read their book, because we've connected in some way, and I love reading, and I just feel like because we've like, either met in person or we've exchanged nice messages on social media, it does make me want to read someone's book more, because I have that personal connection, which is probably how people feel when they go shop at an indie books, or they have the personal connection with, like, a bookseller. So I think that's very similar. Um, I had people like, bring me their books, which does make it easier for me to, like, already have it ready. I don't have to look it up to read it or remember to look it up as well, but I know that, like, probably has a cost to it as well. But I had someone just bring me an F1 romance book yesterday at one of my pop ups, and I've been on an f1 kick. I don't know if she noticed that from my personal social but, like, I am very intrigued already, and now I have it

Sarina Bowen

That’s so lovely.

Jess Lahey

For the listeners out there who are interested in this very specific topic, in our show notes I’m going to link to an episode we did with Mary Laura Philpott, who used to be at Parnassus, about making connections with booksellers. Because there are things you can do to go out of your way—before your book comes out, or when your book is coming out—to say, “Hey, I have this book coming out, would you be interested at all in getting a copy?” So it’s something that can happen that authors can work on. And I’m going to definitely drop the link to that episode in the show notes.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. I had this earlier this year. I was noticing—I started keeping track of how many romance bookstores are in the world. And now I have a list of 60, more than 60. And for a little while, when one just sort of popped up in my social, I was writing an email—because authors get a lot of publisher copies, you know, and sometimes after the launch of the book we end up with a box of like 15 copies still sitting here—and I was sending an email like, “Congratulations on your new store! That’s amazing. Can I send you a signed author copy? Because I just have them here. It’s a gift.” And the uptake of that is, you know, almost 100%. But I don’t ever want to presume that a bookseller wants a copy, you know, unless I check first, because that just seems cheesy. You know, it's, it's, it's hard for authors to know, like, how to be a good partner and not irritating. And anyway, I just thought, you know what your thoughts about that are?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like, I am a new store and, like, a single-person business. So anyone that reaches out to me, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what do you mean? How do you know about me? Why would you want to send me something?” So I'm sure, like, the like, weariness goes both ways, where we are, like, we're also—a lot of people are, like women—or maybe like, not used to promoting themselves more. So I think, like, just shoot your shot. I have an event coming up at like, a big, like, kind of mall, and they said they don't really do things like that with partners like this, but they were impressed that I shot my shot. So I have like, a summer series with them, and I think it's the same for, like, promoting your own book.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I guess this whole conversation is an exercise in trying.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, like the worst that could happen is, I think probably they would maybe say no or not respond to your request—which I do feel like I am guilty of that, because I get a lot and I don't know how to best, like, manage the flow of people saying that they want to send books. But that isn't because I don't want to reply. It's more like, I don't have a good system.

Sarina Bowen

It's hard. So I definitely want to hear how you figure out where to go. Like, where does the truck go? How do you know who to ask? Like, is that a lot of asking and hoping for the, for the best as well. Like, how does it come together?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, that has been a trial and error process. I think I started off applying to more markets, because they're looking for vendors anyways. But those usually have costs. And I found a few markets that I really enjoy going to, so I go to them monthly now. And…

Sarina Bowen

What kind of markets, can I ask?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, they're like, one is like a night market. They do it like, a couple times a month in a city of LA called Lakewood, and there's like food, there's usually, like a theme, so like, there was an AAPI night, or they had— I don't know if you know those, like toys called Labubu — but the last event I did was a Labubu themed one. And then I do another market that is in Culver City, and it is similar—like, there's food and drinks and then there's, like, people selling different like, a lot of artisan-made things,

Sarina Bowen

Okay.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, um, and then I reach out to local businesses as well. And I found, like, right away, I reached out to so many, and I didn't hear back from that many, because I was just starting out. I didn't have that many followers at the time. But the people who I found, and I did pop up set, they were so kind, and they let me dictate, like a day where I come back monthly, so I just have like places that I will go monthly, which makes it a lot easier to, like, have it like a set schedule, and then I just try to test new places and add on.

Sarina Bowen

Like, what kind of business? What? What makes a good what's a good sort of connection?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, well, so the first place that said yes to me was another women-owned business. And I do feel like they are, like, more inclined to, like; take a chance on another woman-owned business. So she actually has a flower shop, and she does like high tea on the days that I go. So she has people going there for like, high tea— but it's on a very visible Street. It's on the Pacific Coast Highway, so I think it's—I'm not sure it's benefiting her in any way, because I'm not sure my customers are going to buy flowers, um, but she has a space for me to pop up, and it doesn't like detract from her business, and it adds something fun to her guests. And I also go to coffee shops and breweries, and I do want to start reaching out to restaurants as well.

Jess Lahey

I'm actually looking at her pop-up schedule on her site right now, and there's also—I wouldn't have even occurred to me—but these silent readings that I see every once in a while on social media that I'm like, "Oh, if I lived in a city, I would be going to those all the time," where people just get together to read together. I've also seen them—people getting together just to write together—and those? That's brilliant. Showing up for something like that is such a wonderful idea, and your pop-up schedule looks fantastic. I'll definitely be dropping that into the show notes as well.

Sarina Bowen

Well, I just want to push back on the idea that the flower shop isn't getting anything out of you stopping there, because, like—so she runs a flower shop. I'm just certain she has a tiny core number of people who come every week and get fresh flowers because, you know, money is no object, and why not.But then there are other people who are on her list, maybe, who are only there when it's somebody's birthday three times a year. But if you're coming on a certain day, and she can tell her following, you know, that, "Oh, stop by on Tuesday because La Fleuria is going to be here, and it's, you know, the romance book truck, and you definitely want to check it out," it gives her a timely thing she can tell the people that do like flowers. And, you know, she's going to maybe have more foot traffic on that day than she otherwise might not have had.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, I think it’s more maybe imposter syndrome, because she has like 800,000 followers.

Sarina Bowen

Wow!

Stephanie Pao

So I’m like drop in your bucket.

Sarina Bowen

Wow. Well, maybe we should all be in the flower business.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah.

Jess Lahey

Well, what did you have to sort of overcome with your own resistance in order to try this new thing? Because when writers have this same problem, we have an idea. It's a little glimmer, a sparkle, of an idea. It's so appealing in our minds. But, like, the commitment to actually, like, set aside six months of your life and write an entire book because you had this glimmer of an idea is a process, and that is why there aren't as many people who write complete books as you have ideas for them. So how did you convince yourself that, um, that this risky thing was—was something you ought to commit to? And how did you make that decision?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, I think I’m still convincing myself that...

Jess Lahey

Okay, fair, fair.

Stephanie Pao

Um, I think it's actually really—it's really hard, because I think we're really programmed, or at least I was, on, like, this typical metric of success, which is, like: go to college, get a job, keep climbing the corporate ladder. And so I just kind of thought I would be doing that my whole life. But I never once thought, like, does that make me happy? Like, I was in a marketing job, and I was like—I climbed up to, like, VP, but I didn't enjoy it at all. And I just thought that's what we were supposed to do. So I think for me, I have been freelancing for three years because I got really burnt out, and I've just slowly come to terms with, like, maybe what I build for myself, or what I want for my life, is different than what all my friends have. Because I still talk to my friends that I've had for a long time, and I don't think they understand what I'm doing. And I feel like you will get a lot of resistance from people that you know, because they just want you to do the thing that feels safe to them, which is not venturing and doing something completely unknown. So I think it's, like, being really comfortable with the idea yourself and that not everyone's going to get it—but that's okay, because the people who do will, like, really support you. And then, of course, like, I'm not going to sugarcoat it—it is like a big financial risk. I think if you're setting aside time to write and not doing, like, other work, like—it is a risk either way. So I am lucky enough to have support, and I think that's, like, really important to share; that, like, my parents supported me so that I could take this on. And I—I started taking less and less clients from my, like, freelancing work to prepare to do this. And, like, I am still not, like, super profitable, but I know that I can, like, push back into freelancing if I really need to. So I think it's—I'm comfortable knowing that there are other means of, like, income if I really need it. But I really want to give myself time to see where this goes.

Sarina Bowen

Right, I love that. So, of course, you knew that freelancing was—that you had some connections there, which helps, so you have, like, a little bit of a cushion for yourself, which is amazing. You—you mentioned earlier that you took a course in bookselling, and I just wonder how you found that, and how—how you felt. Was it information that you already had? Did it just give you confidence? Or did you really learn a lot from that course?

Stephanie Pao

Well, I found it through the American Booksellers Association. It was, like, a linked course that they had on, like, how to get started with opening your own bookstore. And I did learn a lot. I think at the time, I was really debating whether I should do a bookstore or do something more mobile. And that course actually made me feel like—when we did all the calculations—the rent is so much in LA that it just seemed, like, much, much too risky to do a store first. Like, maybe building up a customer base before investing in a shop. So I think I did learn a lot. I also—there's—I get a lot of the same questions from people who want to start something similar. And I got all of that information through this course. Like, a lot of people ask me where you buy books from, and things that have to do with bookselling that aren't very well known. And I think the course provides that information.

Jess Lahey

Nice. Do you do you use Ingram [Ingram Content Group], and so you have like a special account as a bookseller?

Stephanie Pao

Yes. And I just started opening, like, accounts with the publishers, because I wasn't sure how much I was going to order, and you have to meet minimums to order through the publishers. I was like, I don't know how quickly my inventory is going to go, but now I think it will be more worth it, because you get a better, like, discount through the publishers.

Jess Lahey

As someone who's not involved in the bookselling community or the independent publishing community—just for my knowledge—one of the things that I, you know, often lament is if I like an author that is an independent bookseller and their print books are hard to come by. How do you—is Ingram someone who helps you bridge that? Does Ingram do this, like, print on demand? Sorry, there—my husband's home. Could you explain how this works a little bit to me?

Stephanie Pao

So I also—well, I'm not 100% sure—but yes, Ingram does the print-on-demand books, and they have books from a lot of independent authors on there. I have a friend who is an indie author, and she said that she first listed her book on Amazon, but then the bookstores couldn't buy it, so she had to do something to get it on Ingram. So I'm not sure how that works, but I've also bought directly from a few authors, like the author I mentioned, who is, like, my second best seller. I buy directly from her, and I'm not sure where she gets her copies, but it is a much better deal than through Ingram.

Jess Lahey

Yeah. So, Ingram—their first and primary business was as a wholesaler for traditionally published books. So, you know, in the ’90s, when I briefly worked at Random House, Ingram was—you know, when a new book is published, Ingram buys a certain amount of them, and Baker and Taylor buy a certain amount of them, and they stand as a middleman who is ready to wholesale those books to booksellers. And then, of course, they created their print-on-demand service so that, probably, when you log into Ingram, you can see indie titles and traditional titles sort of all together in their offered database. But I did learn something recently about indies and Ingram that was a real eye-opener for me, which is that an author who opens an IngramSpark account and uploads their files there—like, like an indie author that you buy from probably does—has to set a discount amount. And unfortunately, the number that the bookseller gets is not the same as what the author sets. So the author can set a discount to retail in a band between, I don’t know, 40 and 60 or something like that. But, um, in order for a bookseller to get their maximum discount, I have to put 53% discount or greater—like 53 or 55—and if I put 52 instead, then the bookseller gets, often, a very bad discount that is not 52%; it’s more like 30%. So there’s this magic that happens at the 53% author discount that allows you and your colleagues to get the max discount in your Ingram account. And it took me only, like, eight years to learn this magic.

Jess Lahey

So Stephanie, this is why we keep Sarina around, because she knows how this stuff works.

Stephanie Pao

I figured it was there was something, because the range in discounts I see from indie offers is so wide from like 20 to 40% and at 20% it's almost not even worth it to carry.

Sarina Bowen

Right. I bet it isn’t.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

So you if somebody Well, but, and that's where the confusion comes in, because here's an author, and she's putting 45% in that box, and then you're seeing it at 20 and going, this isn't worth it. And of course, like both of you, could be frustrated because…

Jess Lahey

Exactly!

Sarina Bowen

Because that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So um, but I have learned that 53 is the magic number, and that if an author puts 53 and then you will get your max discount. And it took me way, way too long to understand this.

Jess Lahey

This is like… this is, this is—these little random things that come up occasionally—are, you know, why I talk about flattening the learning curve for other authors or booksellers or whomever that listen to this podcast. Because how on earth would you know that? And then you're frustrated because you can't carry a book, because you can't make money on it. The author's incredibly frustrated because you can't—won't—carry the book, and then that piece of information never gets across. So thank you for diving into that dorky detail for me, because, again, I think that's such an important piece of information that no one would ever know unless someone somewhere is discussing it. So thank you.

Sarina Bowen

Um…you're welcome. It's really just inside baseball—like picky junk that takes up my week. But here we are.

Jess Lahey

I know. But the people who listen to this podcast—in particular, the people who are fans of Sarina Bowen—are often people who are also writing within the indie space. And so how, you know—how are they going to find this stuff out?

Sarina Bowen

Well okay.

Jess Lahey

Okay.

Sarina Bowen

Even if it's not as you know, as joyful as the following your dreams and the flower shop stuff, but we're here to do all of it.

Jess Lahey

Well… But the big—this is also a big part of it, because there are also going to be people out there who are like, Oh, I don't want to open a brick-and-mortar store, but Oh, a truck? I mean, like, for me, that's the entry point. That's very, very exciting to me. So, the other reason I wanted to be on this podcast today is because I want to understand how that works, and is it a way into something that would really feed your soul and your heart—and not to mention your book… sell—your, your bookshelves.

Sarina Bowen

Of course. So, Stephanie, before we go, I would love—since you're the expert here—I would love for you to recommend a couple romances that you're excited about right now. And if you wouldn't mind, I would be super thrilled to hear what your number two bestseller is—that you, that you are her best bookseller.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, okay. It's Yes No Maybe by Jessica Sherry, and it is a story of a woman who has, um, scars on her face from, like, an accident from when she was younger. And she's, like, always felt not worthy of, like, all the good things in life, and she's settling. And she moves next door to a romance writer who has writer's block, and she becomes basically his muse. And it's, like, very sweet but very emotional. Some other books I love—I recently finished Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid, and I've never cried so hard in a book. And it's, like, also such a beautiful love story. I, like, have chills thinking about it.

Sarina Bowen

Wow.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah. And then, just like a favorite that I always recommend isAll Rhodes Lead Here by Mariana Zapata. I'm in my late 30s, so I feel like I love when characters are in their 30s and still figuring things out, and I love a slow burn romance.

Sarina Bowen

All right. Thank you so much. I, um—I love those choices. Um, we've all walked into bookstores and seen, like, the same five books on the front table that we've seen in every other bookstore we've walked into that month. And it's really lovely to hear some different recommendations from you, and we really appreciate it. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today to talk about this super fun project that—that Jess and I are like, Ooh, we could just quit everything and get a...

Jess Lahey

Yeah. Well, no. The other thing is, I'm like, Okay, when's my next speaking engagement in Los Angeles, and can I make it coincide with one of your pop-up dates so that I could come by?

Stephanie Pao

I will drive the truck to you.

Jess Lahey

That… actually, we'll figure it out. Because I just, I'm dying to see your truck, dying to see how it works. I just, I'm loving the selections. And I'm just really happy for more than anything else, I'm really happy for someone who has found a way to turn something they love into a business that can work. So I'm just so happy for you.

Stephanie Pao

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.

Sarina Bowen

It was entirely our pleasure. And thank you listeners for tuning in once again to the am writing podcast, and until next week, keep your heads in the game and your butt's in the chair.

Jess Lahey

The Hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Capture Emotion on the Page Jul 11, 2025

One of the writing skills I am asked about the most is, “How do I get emotion on the page?” People ask this no matter what genre they are writing, because no one wants to produce a manuscript that is flat and unengaging. Emotion is the key, but figuring out how to inspire your reader to feel something is a tricky thing to learn and an even trickier thing to master.

In her debut novel, Slanting Towards the Sea(Simon & Schuster, July 2025), Lidija Hilje has mastered it. The story feels so raw and so real—and English is not even Lidija’s first language! It’s a remarkable achievement.

I’m excited to speak with Lidija about her path to publication and how she figured out how to get the emotion of her characters onto the page.

Links from the Pod:

Article from Jane Friedman

Guide on Literary Fiction from Lidija

Lidija’s website: www.lidijahilje.com

Author Accelerator book coaches Barbara Boyd and Nita Collins

Transcript below!

EPISODE 456 - TRANSCRIPT

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone, it's Jennie Nash. This episode happens to feature an Author Accelerator book coach. Author Accelerator is the company I founded more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. If you've been curious about what it takes to become a successful book coach—which is to say, someone who makes money, meaning, and joy out of serving writers—I've just created a bunch of great content to help you learn more. You can access it all by going to bookcoaches.com/waitlist. That's bookcoaches.com/waitlist. We'll be enrolling a new cohort of students in our certification program in October, so now’s a perfect time to learn more and start making plans for a whole new career.

Multiple Speakers:

Is it recording? Now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing. Alright, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three.

Jennie Nash

Hey writers, I'm Jennie Nash, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting podcast, the place where we talk about writing all the things; short things, long things, fiction, nonfiction, pitches, and proposals. Today I'm talking with Lidija Hilje, the author of the novel Slanting Towards the Sea. And what we're talking about is how to capture emotion on the page—the most elusive thing in the entire writing universe. Lidija lives in Croatia. She's a former lawyer who I know because she became a book coach through Author Accelerator. This is her first novel, and it's something else. As a longtime book coach, it’s really hard for me to read for pleasure anymore, because it's so hard not to see the writer at work and the seams of the creation. But Slanting Towards the Sea—I saw none of that. I fell wholly into the story and became lost in it; the olive trees and the sea, the pain of these people and this love triangle, and also just the love that they had for life and each other. It's almost unbearably raw—the way life itself can feel sometimes. And yet, since I know Lidija and her story to becoming a writer, I also know how much work it took to create this feeling and emotion. I'm so excited to speak with Lidija today, and so excited for people to hear about her and her story. So welcome, Lidija. Thanks for coming onto the podcast.

Lidija Hilje

Thank you so much for having me and for this incredible introduction. I'm so honored.

Jennie Nash

Well, before we get started, I want to read the jacket copy for Slanting Towards the Sea, so that our listeners can hear the bones of the story that you wrote. Is that okay if I read it for our listeners?

Lidija Hilje

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Jennie Nash

Okay.

Ivona divorced the love of her life, Vlaho, a decade ago. They met as students at the turn of the millennium, when newly democratic Croatia was alive with hope and promise. But the challenges of living in a burgeoning country extinguished Ivona’s dreams one after another—and a devastating secret forced her to set him free. Now Vlaho is remarried and a proud father of two, while Ivona’s life has taken a downward turn. In her thirties, she has returned to her childhood home to care for her ailing father. Bewildered by life’s disappointments, she finds solace in reconnecting with Vlaho and is welcomed into his family by his spirited wife, Marina. But when a new man enters Ivona’s life, the carefully cultivated dynamic between the three is disrupted, forcing a reckoning for all involved. Set against the mesmerizing Croatian coastline, Slanting Towards the Seais a cinematic, emotionally searing debut about the fragile nature of potential and the transcendence of love.

That’s it! What a—what a—what a summary, right? So I want to start by talking about the genre of this book, Lidija. As a book coach, you specialize in helping people write literary fiction. And you're extremely articulate about defining exactly what it is. And I'd like to just start there, by talking about how you see this novel, where it's positioned and, um, and your sense of it in, as a—in the genre, um, categories, if you will. Um, and I'll share with our listeners before you answer that English is not your first language—which is something we're going to talk about from a writing perspective, but just from a listening perspective, to give people some context for that. So let's talk about—let's talk about genre.

Lidija Hilje

Yeah, well, genre is one of my favorite topics as a book coach, and so naturally it is something I love talking about. So the first book I ever wrote, which is now safely shelved in a drawer at the bottom of a drawer, was women's fiction. And the reason why it was women's fiction was that because I was learning how to write, I was learning how to weave a story together. And in doing so, I was trying to find some commonalities in stories—like how stories work, how you develop them, how you develop a character arc, how you wrap it up towards the end. And—but my intention always was to write literary. I was just not very good at doing it. And so I kind of—like all the feedback that I got throughout my—from developmental editors—it was like geared towards kind of channeling the book towards women's fiction. And this is something that really still strikes me as a book coach: how different it is to coach literary fiction as opposed to genre fiction, which is more formulaic. So basically, that first book is safely shelved. And when I started writing this book, I was working really hard at trying to make it not be formulaic. And actually, one of the book coaches from our community helped me. I had a conversation with Barbara Boyd where I outlined my story for her, and she said there was this moment where I kind of did something in my outline…what could basically be called a cop-out—so that… I killed a character, basically, so that the…you know, that the book would close neatly, right? And so she called me out on it and said—because I talked to her specifically because she coaches literary fiction but didn't like or coach women's fiction—and I thought that perspective was something I needed. And so she said, "Why are you killing that character?” And that was the wake-up moment for me, because that was the moment when I realized that in doing so, that was the typical moment where a writer kind of goes toward the genre. And where the interesting thing in the literary fiction genre lies is exploring, you know, what happens when you don't kill the character—when you don't take the easy way out. And so, genre-wise, what I, you know—I run a book club for writers, and we read a lot of literary fiction. And so, I was constantly trying to figure out, like, what is it about these books that, you know, define genre? And in studying these books, there are several things, and I could talk about this, I guess, for centuries, but I'll try to...

Jennie Nash

I—I love it. Let's do it.

Lidija Hilje

So basically, in literary fiction, there are many things that genre fiction also has. There are themes, there are character arcs—you know, a character might grow, though not necessarily. But basically, it's much less clear than in genre fiction. In genre fiction, for instance, you have—especially in women's fiction—you will have a woman who is shy and then she becomes confident toward the end. Or you have a horrible, you know, self-obsessed character who learns their lesson toward the end of the book. It's really clear-cut. The reader can latch on to what the problem is without thinking too much about it. And literary fiction does the opposite. It fans out a little bit. It touches on many different things that kind of seem unrelated, but they are related. And this is a problem in writing it, as well as coaching it, because as a coach or as a writer, you have to be aware of all these things. You have to beware of how these things tie together so that you have the idea of this through line that goes throughout the story, whereas the reader might not be catching on as fast but does have the confidence that you, as the writer, are going to get them there, if that makes sense.

Jennie Nash

Oh, it makes so much sense. So when you were working on—I actually remember reading some opening, maybe the opening chapters of the novel that has been shelved. When I read those pages, they struck me as if they had that feeling of literary fiction. Was that your intention with that novel as well?

Lidija Hilje

Yes, it was. It was just that I was unable to... I came to writing late. I mean, I was always a writer in the sense that I was always writing something, but I came to writing fiction and specifically books very late. It was 2017 when I started writing that book in Croatian. And the first, you know, contact with any craft or writing happened in 2019 when I finished the draft and I translated that book into English, and I started looking for ways of pub... you know, publishing that book and realized that the first draft is not the last draft. Like that was the—like it was—sometimes it's so funny to think like how recently I didn't know anything about publishing or writing at all. So basically, I did want that book to be literary fiction. I always wanted to do, you know, to write the type of fiction that I wrote in Slanting [Slanting Towards the Sea], and obviously I hope to, you know, hone my craft in the future, but it wasn't—it wasn’t on that level. And the first developmental editor that I worked with in 2019, she was giving me all the logical advice that you can give someone, which is... hone the character arc you are telling here, show, you know, all those things that we tell our clients when we work with them as book coaches. But what it did is it completely stripped the literary part from it, and it made me write in scene, which is not how literary fiction is written. You know, like, one of the differences between commercial fiction and literary fiction is that you don't necessarily write in scenes. You write in summaries, and you write in postcards, which is the type of a scene that goes deeper instead of forward, if that makes sense. So you're not kind of—nothing changes for the protagonist, the protagonist doesn't realize anything, they don't decide on a new course of action, nothing new happens, but the reader's understanding of the character happens. And this is also true when you're looking at the character arc on the, you know, scope of the whole novel. Like in literary fiction, it will often be that, you know, that the character doesn't change much in terms of, like what I said before—she was shy and she stopped being shy, right? It will just be that the reader's understanding of the character deepens. And so my first book was an attempt at literary fiction, but it was not an execution. You know, the execution didn't really match that, and I feel like the advice that I got from my early developmental editor was just kind of trying to put me in the confines of commercial fiction. Which is... you know... understandable. You know, and I'm great— I'm even, like, today—I'm grateful for it because you first have to learn how to walk and then you can run, right? So I did have to go through the process of learning how to write a good scene, of learning how not to tell, of learning how to hide the seams that you—that you were talking about—you need to hide your fingerprints as a writer. And that was my learning book. I learned a lot from writing it, but by the time I was done with it, it was not—it didn’t—it was not a bad book, and I got a lot of full requests for it, but it was not—it did not end up being what I had hoped for it.

Jennie Nash

So, in 2017, when you started that book, you said you came to writing late. Do you mind sharing where you were in your life, if you want to share your age or what you were doing in your life, just to give us some context for what you mean by that—by coming to it late?

Lidija Hilje

So yeah, so 2017 was one of the hardest years in my life, I think. I think it's just the moment where I was around 35, I think. I would have to do the math, but mid-30s. And I had just been fired for the second time after my second maternity leave. And, you know jobs in my profession, which is—I was an attorney—were scarce, and I opened my own law firm. And I sat there in my law office, you know, a woman working as an attorney in Zadar, Croatia. It was not, you know, I was not having like flocks of clients, you know, going through the door. And you had to sit there from 8am to 4pm, which is our work time. And I had, um, ii had um... I started writing basically to pass the time. And I was writing just the scenes that I was interested in that, you know, brought me joy and then I, you know, wrote the intermittent scene, and the book grew and grew. And by the time I had finished it, which was a year and a half later, you know, it became... It just became a thing that I was—it took over it took over my whole life. I could not, you know and financially it was a difficult time for us as well. We had reached—my husband and I, like I said mid 30’s—and we had kind of peaked career wise here in Croatia. So basically, what people don't understand about Croatia is that even if you're a brain surgeon, or if you're a lawyer, or if you're a programmer—like my husband—the money you make is not much more than the average wage. And so, you know, we were at the top of our game professionally, but not earning enough to make ends meet. And so we had started thinking about moving to Ireland basically, which is the, you know, IT hub for the... in Europe. And in thinking about it, I was sitting in my law office and I was basically crying my eyes out thinking if I go there, I'm going to be stripped of my identity as an attorney. I had been working toward that for basically 15, 20 years. And in trying to get over that pain of working towards something that in Ireland, it's not going to mean anything because, you know, the legal system is so very different and my use of language was not, you know, it's still not really good. Like professional English is not the same as this spoken English, you know, everyday English. And so, in kind of trying to accept that we are going to move and I'm going to be stripped of that identity as a lawyer, I was, in a way, you know, to make it easier for myself, I started accepting all the things that I didn't want to look at, which is I hated my job.

Jennie Nash

Right, right.

Lidija Hilje

I loved being in a courtroom, like that was a good part of it. But everything else, you know, the intellectual part of it, like thinking about law, applying law to a certain case was interesting to me. But everything else was horrible. And so, once I accepted that, and my husband got a job, you know, like working for... as a freelancer for an outside company, and we could stay in Croatia, I was like, "And what am I going to do now? I can't go back to being a lawyer." And so, because his wage was a little bit more than, you know, for the first time, he could afford for me to go, you know, to take a year off and to see what I could do. And so, for a while, I interned at a foreign literary agency—that didn't go anywhere. Then I wrote, you know, a copy for a startup that didn't end up, you know, paying me. So that was kind of like—I was at the end of my rope by the, you know, toward the end of that year. And then I encountered the Author Accelerator program for book coaches, and I had during that year I had connected with writers and I have realized that basically the legal knowledge really translates beautifully into book coaching. So it was kind of like, you know, working on a story, or if you're working on a case, or working on a book, it's kind of a similar thing, similar logic applies. And so it was a… you—you know, it was, I know I'm mixing a little bit the books coaching and legal and, you know, writing careers...

Jennie Nash

No, it's fascinating.

Lidija Hilje

But they are so intertwined in my life, yeah.

Jennie Nash

I mean, it's fascinating the way that you trained yourself on story, basically. And I remember the conversation when you approached Author Accelerator, because you were nervous about being able to meet the requirements of our program because of your language—that English is not your first language. But I, I mean, we have a system whereby it's you try it, you know, if—if you'd meet the requirements, you meet them and if you don't, you don't. And it struck me that your grasp of story was so profound. That I didn’t know... you know, it was one conversation about your grasp of the written language. But, um, you were... you were very nervous about your ability to do the work of book coaching in another language. And it's just interesting from where we sit now, so I want to circle back to the book itself and the novel and what you accomplished in it, because it really does have the thing that so many writers are always trying to do, and they talk about it—it is so elusive. Which is this capturing this feeling, emotion, letting the reader sit in the mirror of what those characters are feeling, and you feel it your own self, and that it, you know, when it, when it works, it's, it's like a magic trick. And it strikes me that you came at that very deliberately. It was not accidental. Is that fair to say? Would you believe that?

Lidija Hilje

I think I always wanted to write about... I always wanted to write quiet stories. And for quiet stories to work, you have to make the quiet things loud in a way. And the loud things are the emotions. And so yes, yes, it was always my goal. I was not always good at it... in writing emotion. But yeah, like during that process of writing that first book, I struggled with it a lot. I struggled with what I guess happens a lot of the time when we are writing is that we're trying very hard for the reader to see things the way we are seeing them. And this counter-intuitively causes the very reverse effect. You know the reader—is the more you're trying to make them listen to you, the more you're trying to, you know, impose your view of things on them, the more they resist. So the trick is basically, and I'll make it sound very easy, it's not easy at all to execute, but the trick is to kind of, you know, to try to find a way and to deliver that emotion without judgment. Like, this is what I'm feeling, or this is what my character is feeling. And not trying to explain it, not trying to get compassion, not trying to get the reader to feel anything. Like, you're just putting things out in the ether, and you're allowing the reader to do their own math. And this is something you can do in literary fiction, which is more open-ended, right? And the readers of genre fiction, I do need more hand-holding in that sense that they will not maybe work as hard as the literary reader. So yeah, I did work very hard. And, you know, the first book, the “shelved” book, really got to a point where I couldn't do that work anymore. But when I started Slanting [Slanting Towards the Sea]… the literally... the first scene in Slanting [Slanting Towards the Sea], came out the way it did. Like that's…

Jennie Nash

Oh wow!

Lidija Hilje

It didn't change. We had this meeting of writing friends and one of them said, let's exchange, like, let's read 500 new words and I was not working on anything. I had been focusing on book coaching at that moment—that was 2021. And I went to the moment in that room when she is thinking about her ex-husband, you know, when the protagonist is thinking about her ex-husband, and it just came out the way it is. I don't think I changed basically more than three words since that scene came out the way it is. And so...

Jennie Nash

Oh, that's amazing. I want to... I want to read some of the lines from that opening scene, if I can, to give the readers... I mean the listeners a sense of what we're talking about. So here's how Slanting Towards the Sea begins.

I open his socials and sift through his photos. I know their sequence like I know the palm of my hand. Better even, because I can never memorize what my palm looks like, how the life line twirls into the love line, how it begins tight and uniform, but then turns ropey. It scares me to look at it, to trace the lines, to see where they might lead me in years to come. But I know Vlaho’s photos by heart.

And it goes on from there. It's, it's just, it's so haunting. And, and the whole, the whole novel is, is that, has that feel to it. So when did you, when did you know that with this story you had it? You knew with the other one that you couldn't get it back, or that it wasn't going to happen. When did you begin? Was it after the sharing of that scene where you thought, oh, I've got this?

Lidija Hilje

I knew that I could write a scene, but there's a difference, you know, a postcard. I would call this a postcard. This is the typical example of a postcard, a scene where nothing changes for the protagonist and she doesn't understand anything new, but it kind of deepens the reader's understanding of, you know, her situation. So I knew I could write it, which is something I struggled with, with the first book, but I—there's a long road from doing one good postcard and then, you know, writing an entire book, which in literary fiction you have this additional, you know, challenge. You do a ratio basically of normal scenes and summaries, and postcards, and you have to maintain that ratio throughout the book. So, um, yeah for the... relatively early in the book I had submitted that first scene for some competitions. And I got great feedback. It won a critique match, writing a competition in the literary fiction category. And it was long listed in the BPA Pitch Prize in the UK. So I knew that... you know... you know... that the opening of the book was working. So that was good. But from then on, it was such a struggle, because you read the book, and so you know, it has dual timelines; it spans 20 years. I was struggling so bad trying to figure out whether I should do, you know, the past in flashbacks? Whether I should alternate timelines? How do I set this massive story up, which has, you know, the past, and, you know, the present, which happens over a span of... I don't know... five or six months in the present timeline. So I struggled with it a lot. But the thing that I struggled with the most was accountability. So basically, for the first year and a half—for the first year—I wrote, I think, maybe 150 pages. They were not very well set up. I was unsure of them, and I would always push the book backwards to work on client stories. And so what really changed the game for me was when I—I have this program that I run in summertime and one of our book coaches was in that program, Nita Collins. And after the program ended, we partnered up. And so she was my accountability—you know partner, as well as…you know, feedback giver and cheerleader and all the things. And so, you know, I still struggled with how to set up all the things and how to build up the narrative, which I think is really hard for people to coach literary fiction, because you can basically only offer solutions that are kind of geared towards tropey, right? So the author really does have to do all the work, in that sense, but she was absolutely instrumental in terms of me getting the pages down and just seeing if the pages hit the mark or didn't, why they didn't, you know, talking to her, just voicing, talking about the book. And so this went on for a year and within one year I had a full first draft and from then on it was a quick revising process and within three months I had three agent offers. So it was a fast process from then on, from having the first draft, to getting an agent.

Jennie Nash

Well, big shout out to Nita Collins and the Author Accelerator community. I love that a connection happened for you guys. It's really beautiful the way you describe it. So can you explain why you decided it was time to go out to agents? With the first book you decided... this is not going to go anywhere. I'm putting it aside. And with this one, very soon after you finished the first draft, you decided to pitch. What was that decision-making process like for you?

Lidija Hilje

So I want to be completely honest. I didn't shelve the first project because I thought it was not, I could not get it to a level. I was convinced that it was on a level, and I had pitched it, but I had been rejected over 100 times. So basically the industry decided for me that it wasn't going to happen. And one of the things that was really hard for me in that first book is that I set it in the US, which I've never been to the US. So it made it very difficult, but I felt like if I set the book in Croatia, I would, like the cultural perspective would overpower the quiet narrative. And I thought that I couldn't do it. And so I, you know, in Slanting [Slanting Towards the Sea], this is the base of the book. Like, it's, you know, I've found a way to weave the cultural perspective as seamlessly as I could. But the pitching process—I basically... I had the first draft done when I had decided to pitch the book. It was a little bit—to be honest, I was a little bit hasty. I had applied for The Muse & the Marketplace conversation with agents. You could...

Jennie Nash

Like the speed dating.

Lidija Hilje

Yeah, like the speed dating. And so I purchased a few tickets for that. And this was done for two reasons. The first one was to, you know; give myself a goal to work towards—to kind of make it all go faster. And the second goal was to see how the industry looks at this. And if there are any issues that they have with the, you know, with the book or with how it's set up, I would rather know sooner than later. And so, because they were reading not just the pages—they were reading, like, 10 pages, a synopsis, and a query letter—which I would also wholeheartedly recommend writing during the writing phase. Preferably, you know, toward the end of the first draft, you would have to do the pitching materials, because they inform so much of... they make you really focus on what the book is about and kind of drawing out the themes and the plot and kind of parsing all those things out. So I told myself: if I go there, and if I get some, you know the best thing that could happen is I could get some full requests. The worst thing that could happen was they will tell me that I'm not there, that my writing is not there, and that the and/or that the book doesn't hold together. And so what happened is, I was... I had just finished my first draft, but I knew that the ending wasn't right. I had the wrong ending. So I knew I had to rewrite the last third of the book, at least. And I went on to that conference, and out of five agents I had talked to, four had requested a full manuscript—toward, like, when I had it. So it was a huge, you know, confidence builder, and that summer I really, really—I can't, it's really amazing what happened—I just, I was so energized, and I just, you know, I don't know, it's like a visit from the muse, even though it's just work. But it felt—I felt very inspired, and I completely rewrote the book, basically, and that gave it the ending that it needed to have, which was also one of the fights against the genre confinements which I had kind of put on myself. So yeah, so that was the decision that I should be doing that, and at the same time, I wanted to be, like, 100% sure that when I sent the manuscript out, it would be finished—that it would be the best that I can make it by myself, you know, and, you know, for Nita to read it, for a couple of beta readers that I've really trusted—and they have the same taste in books that I do—to read it. And only with that feedback was I really ready to send it out to agents.

Jennie Nash

So—the—we'll get to what happened with the agents in a minute. But I want to return to something that you said about the culture of Croatia and the role that it has in the story, and you called it foundational. And it really feels both the setting of the country, meaning the land, there's... there's a lot you write about, um, the sea, and the food that comes from the sea, and the winds that travel, um, both on the sea and on the land, and there's olive trees that play a large part in this story. So there is a lot about the country itself, and then there's, there is a lot about the, the culture and the, the changing bureaucracies and politics and things that are going on. And it's interesting that you spoke in your own life about contemplating leaving the country, because your characters at some key points, contemplate leaving as well. So there's—there was very much about the constraints of the world of this place, and that's part of what the, you know, it's interesting that you talk about it as your concern was that it would overwhelm the story, but it's part of, for me, what the container in which that emotion happened. It felt not separate from the story, but a really critical component of it. The way these characters lived on the land, and in this place, and what that allowed them to do,—or to be—or not be and how they bumped up against it.It was... It's really like you have a historian's grasp of that, your world, was that something you were conscious of while you were writing as well?

Lidija Hilje

Yes. I was always worried about writing, you know, a Croatian perspective. Like that was always a big concern for me because I, you know, when you're looking at literature and what interests readers, it's either, you know, the book set in the UK and US, which is kind of the clear narrative, it doesn't, it's, it's a pervasive culture that we all understand when it kind of becomes invisible, or, you know, a background noise, it doesn't really affect the narrative. Whereas the other interesting things that readers, when they want to travel somewhere, they will want to go somewhere exotic, you know, whether it's Nigeria or, you know, Eastern Asia, Japan, China, you know? So it felt like Croatia is different, but not different enough, you know? And so it's, it's kind of like almost like it makes the reader constantly forget that they're in Croatia, while at the same time kind of jarring them when you remind them of the differences, and this was one of the, one of the, you know, key points of my work with Nita, was when she would just notice things like, what is, you know, what is the, why are there, there are no dividers in the hospital between the beds? And it's just like... and now I realize that I have to explain how our hospitals look like, and it's not like yours. Or the difference in the tides, which in America are, you know, over, over, I don't know how many feet, and in Croatia they're just, um, and we talked about it when you were here in Zadar as well. So it's just like, it's very similar to America, but not quite. And that was very frustrating at times to try to depict. But on the other hand, in writing Ivona, I wanted to, I feel, I have felt and still feel a lot of frustration with my country. I love it, but I have been planning, like there have been multiple, you know, periods in my life when I had hoped to leave, just because how frustrating it is to live here sometimes with the bureaucracy and just the way the mentality is here and everything. So basically in writing her story, I wanted to air out those grievances in a way. To give them voice, to examine them, to see what they are, and like everything, you know, it's not black or white, it's the way we are here, and it's also the way I am, you know. I notice this when I interact with people from other areas, and they say that us Croats and, you know, Balkan people are very, you know, always like, always complaining about something, which is true, we are. And so, yeah, so it's difficult. It's difficult because I wanted that to be a part of the story. And at the same time, you know, there, you know, there is the possibility of the American reader who doesn't see that it's a part of the culture here, basically. That they could look at Ivona, and say, you know, why does she just not snap out of it?

Jennie Nash

Hmm…

Lidija Hilje

And, you know, it's almost like saying to me to snap out of the issues that I had as I was like, trying, you know, like banging my head against the wall, trying to get my career going, and t's not working. Like whatever you're, you're trying—like it's easier for me to make it in the US, never having set a foot there, than in Croatia.

Jennie Nash

Right.

Lidija Hilje

I mean, my book is being published in the US; it's still not being published in Croatia, just for the record. So it's really hard, and it's really hard to make that a part of the book, but not have it, like, weigh the book all the way down. So it was a process. It's like all the things you try and miss and, you know, sometimes you go overboard, and then you have to pull back, and you have to be careful not to go too deeply into your own experience and just feel that the character is separate from you, and obviously she has some different issues than I had and a different occupation, but a lot of her grievances are mine as well.

Jennie Nash

Well, that yearning and, can… I guess confusion really does come across. The how will I, how will I live? How will I love? How will I spend my days? I mean, these are the questions of our life, and they're the questions of this character in—as she goes through what she's experiencing. That they're, they're both mundane questions and, and, you know, the most profound. And, and the way you capture it... I mean, that was just to circle back to my initial idea of talking about how to capture emotion on the page, you know, which is the work of a novel. That's what it's for. That's its point. And it's just so hard to do. And you just did it on so many levels in a language that's not your first. And it really is just extraordinary and moving. And in preparing to talk to you today, I read a lot of the early reviews—people who got advanced readers copies, 'cause the book comes out in July, 2025, and we're speaking a few months before that time. So it's not fully out in the world, but it's enough that, um, I can see that reaction rippling through the readers and, and certainly through the, um, professional, um, colleagues and, you know, who've blurbed the book. But this idea of it being—the word people kept using was “moving.” And there was a lot of words like “tender” and “haunting,” you know, people really felt what it sounds like you intended them to feel. So how, from where you sit now, how does that—how does it feel to have gotten that feedback from some of the writers you admire? And to know that it did… it works doing what you want it to do? How does that feel?

Lidija Hilje

Oh, it's, it's impossible to talk about that because I guess I'm typically Croatian in the way that it's easier for me to sit in my failures than to sit in my successes. So it's absolutely incredible. I mean, when you get a blurb from Claire Lombardo, who is, you know, I absolutely adore her books and I think she's insanely talented, you know, and for her, you know, she used the words “humane,” and that really—I was so moved by that. So my… kind of my goal is for, for people to see the humanity in these, these characters. And so it's really, it's really amazing. It's, it's beyond, you know, some of the, you know, I got really great blurbs from authors I really, really deeply admire: Thao Thai, Nguyễn Phan Quế Mai, Amy Lin, and Madeline Lucas, and as well, you know, Claire Lombardo, whom I mentioned. It's really incredible. It's so life affirming for me, you know, to be able to do that. But like I said, it's always, you know, when I'm reading the reviews, which I probably shouldn't be doing, I'm always focusing on the few that are not—just not feeling it. And then I have to remind myself it’s not—this is not a book for anyone, for just everyone. And it's, you know, it's a journey. It's still, like you said, early days. I'm learning to be an author, to grow an even thicker skin in that sense. But yeah, it did feel great to get those beautiful reviews. And I'm so grateful to them for reading and donating their time to me.

Jennie Nash

I mean, it's so not fair what I want to say. It's so not fair. But I want to ask anyway. Quite a few of the reviews said they can't wait for your next book, which, you know, it's like you're not a machine. You've just done this one. But are you thinking about that? Are you… do you have thoughts about that?

Lidija Hilje

Yeah, I am trying to work on my new book. But, you know, I'm admiring the writers who put out a book a year. That's definitely not going to be me. There's an insane amount of work in putting the book out. You know, there's invisible work that goes behind the screen, you know, that people don't see, but it’s happening and it takes up a lot of time. And there's also this emotional, you know, it's, it's—it’s difficult sitting in, like… you're trying to make this your career. You wrote your heart on the paper and you're offering it to the world. And now you're suspended in this period when you put it out and you're waiting to see how it's received, whether someone tramples on it or whether it's upheld. And so it's a difficult, emotionally difficult place to be in, and I'm one of those writers who struggle to create when I'm not, you know, when I'm feeling… when I'm feeling stressed. So work on my second novel is going slowly. I’ve gotten to page 100, but then I realized it needed, you know, I needed to make some changes, so I'm back to page 30. So it's a, you know, it's a—it's a process. I think, you know, writing literary fiction takes time. It takes self-examination; it takes a lot of reading of other people who have done it successfully—the type of novel that you're trying to execute. So, so yeah, I'm trying to work on it, but, um, but it may, it may be a while.

Jennie Nash

All right. I know—that's why it wasn't fair to even ask. Um, so back to… I just want to pick up the story back to—you got the three or the four, um, agent requests, and you, you finished the novel, and, um, and you pitched to them. Can you just share what all unfolded? Because… it was pretty extraordinary.

Lidija Hilje

So, basically, what happened was I didn't pitch all the four agents that had requested the pages. I had the first querying experience, which is what I said—you know 100 rejections. I took a long, hard look at it and realized that many of the time I was querying the wrong agents, genre-wise, which, you know, I was not aware of at the time. So a lot of those rejections were basically because I was querying a women's fiction book to literary agents. And that was one thing. And the other thing is… I was pretty, you know, unselective with whom I was querying the first time around. And the second time around, I was really intentional with the type of agent and their reputation and the connections within the industry—you know, just much more aware, approaching it much more professionally in terms of, you know, just wanting a good fit that would actually be able to do something for me, you know, to sell the book. And so a friend who had, you know, she had given me a referral to her agent—that didn't pan out. I gave that agent a month, an exclusive. And when that didn't pan out, I basically sent the query to my now agent, Abby Walters, at CAA. And, you know, it was a form on the website. I didn't even write her an email. It was just a form. So I didn't think that anyone would read it, basically. And I got—quickly I got like five or six requests, right out of the gate, those maybe first 10 days. And by the end of the second week I had gotten an offer of representation from Abby. And I followed up with the rest of the agents. The total, uh, the total number of, uh, full requests ended up being, I think, maybe nine out of 20, 25 queries. And, uh, I got three offers of representation, um, from fantastic agents. And, uh, deciding was hell. I was—I was—it was horrible to be in a position where you had to say no to an agent that you admire and that you would genuinely love to work with, but you know, for some reasons I chose Abby and I'm really happy with working with her. She's fantastic. I—I, you know, love her to death. And yeah, so that was the story of getting an agent. It was—it was—it was pretty quick and painless, I have to say, the second time around.

Jennie Nash

Right, from 100 rejections with the first one to—to nine full requests and three offers on—on this one, that's an extraordinary swing, for sure. And I love the—the way that you approached it the second time with that intention. It just says everything about the kind of person and writer you are, and the book landed with Simon & Schuster and will be coming out soon, and I can't wait to share it with our listeners. It's a beautiful, beautiful novel. I just—I cherished reading every page, and we had the really great good fortune of my taking a vacation to Croatia and coming to your town and meeting you and walking through the town with you, and I treasure that for so many reasons. But having read the book, I felt like I could taste it and see it in a really special way, having had a tour of your city with you. So that, for me, was just a special—a special part of it too.

Lidija Hilje

Thank you so much, Jennie. But actually, you kind of were a part of that, because when I thought about the places where Ivona would take a seer to, you know, to see, I had our tour in my—you know, on my mind, because I was thinking, like, what would she show someone who's from another place? Like, where would she take him? And it wouldn't be the things I showed you. I mean, I showed you some of the big things that you have to see when you're here. But I took you to the places that are more intimate to me, like more personally important to me.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Lidija Hilje

And so this is—this is what's behind the scene where she shows him her school. And, you know, so, yeah… you know, real life.

Jennie Nash

Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. Well, yeah, I did get to see where you went to school and where the law office was. And—and one of the things that's really stayed with me was we went to a bookstore and it… Um, and it—just knowing what your life in books has been, Lidija, and how you've studied them and how you've worked to become a writer of the caliber that you are. And that bookstore was so small, and it had mostly books in Croatian, and it was not anything like the kind of bookstore that one would think would spark a major literary career. And it… that just has stuck with me, because you—you made your own bookstore, right? You found your own literary community. You found your own career and way, and it's just been a joy to watch and to cheer you on. And thank you for coming and talking with us today.

Lidija Hilje

Thank you so much for having me, and all the encouragement over the years. I'm really grateful for that as well.

Jennie Nash

All right, well, until next time, for our listeners—keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess Lahey

The Hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In Search of the Beast in the Clouds with author Nathalia Holt Jul 04, 2025

I’m a big fan of Nathalia (Nat) Holt’s books, and am so excited to have the opportunity to talk to her about her new book, The Beast in the Clouds: The Roosevelt Brothers' Deadly Quest to Find the Mythical Giant Panda.

I first met Nat when her book Cured: The People Who Defeated HIV came out and I attended a book event at Dartmouth Medical Center. She is so smart and curious and in this episode we will be talking about the process of researching elusive history, where her ideas come from, and who gets to tell what stories.

Nathalia Holt’s website

Transcript below!

EPISODE 455 - TRANSCRIPT

Jess Lahey

Hey, AmWriters! It's Jess Lahey here. I am so excited to talk about a new series that I am putting out there on the Hashtag AmWriting platform called From Soup to Nuts. I interview and work with and mentor an author—a nonfiction author—who has subject matter expertise and a killer idea, frankly, that just knocked me sideways. This author really thinks this is the time and place for this idea. And I agreed, and I asked her—I begged her—if I could mentor her through this process in a series. We're having to work together on agenting and proposal and all the stuff that you've got to do, from soup to nuts, to get a book out into the world. This series, From Soup to Nuts, is subscriber-only. The first episode is free, so you can go back and listen to that. That's for everyone. But if you want to join us for the whole process and learn from her mistakes—and learn from the stuff that I'm working on right now too—you have to subscribe. So consider supporting the Hashtag AmWriting podcast. It helps us bring you stuff like this—these extra series—not to mention the podcast itself. Alright, it's a lot of work. Help us support our podcast and these extra bonus series. By becoming a supporter, you'll get a sticker for it. You'll get your hypothetical, figurative sticker for being a goodHashtag AmWriting.

Multiple speakers:

Is it recording? Now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause… I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three.

Jess Lahey

Hey, this is the Hashtag AmWriting podcast. This is the podcast about writing all the things—writing the short things, writing the long things, writing the queries, the proposals, the poetry, the fiction, the nonfiction. This is the podcast actually, at its heart, about getting the work done. I am Jess Lahey. I am your host today. I'm the author of the New York Times best-selling The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my journalism at The New York Times and The Atlantic and The Washington Post. And today I am interviewing an author I respect deeply. I have known this author since she wrote her first book, which overlapped with some work that my husband does and some work that I had done in a previous career, and she has gone on to have a glorious and enviable career in nonfiction. My dream has always been to be one of those people that can, like, get curious about a topic and then just go off and write about that topic. And this is what she does. So Natalia—NAT—Holt, I am so excited to introduce you to our listeners. They are deep, deep, deep lovers of the nuts and bolts and the geeky details of the writing and the process. So welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting podcast.

Nathalia Holt

Thank you so much. I'm excited to talk to you today.

Jess Lahey

So we have a book on HIV—the first book, Cured, which is the way that I got to know you. Also, full disclosure, we share an agent. Laurie Abkemeier is our agent, and I think she actually may have introduced us in the first place. Yeah, your first book—yeah, your first book, Cured, about the Berlin patients. Really interesting—if you've never heard of the Berlin patients, listeners, just, just Google it. It's really a fascinating story. I'll go over—I'll go read Cured. Cured is all about the Berlin patients. And then we have The Queens of Animation—the women behind, sort of, the way Disney does what they do. And—and—and then we also have Rise of the Rocket Girls, which is another fascinating book out there about the women behind a lot of the math and the planning and the work that was done to get us into space. And so when I heard about your new book, I'm like, "Oh, NAT's working on a new book. Great! What women are we going to talk about this time?" And it's such a departure for you, and it is such a fascinating topic for you. And, well, for me, it’s like—it’s deep in my geeky, Jess-book-loving nonfiction zone. Could you tell us a little bit about it and where the idea came from for this book?

Nathalia Holt

Sure. The book is called The Beast in the Clouds, and it's about an expedition that the two eldest sons of President Theodore Roosevelt took in 1928 and 1929. And they went to China and Tibet in search of the giant panda, which at that time was unknown to Western scientists. And even in China, there were very few people that were aware of where this animal lived, what it ate—so little was known. So during this time period, the 1920s, you have all of these expeditions going to China, trying to find this black-and-white bear that no one is really sure exists. It's just a crazy period of history, because you have all of the other bears at that time—even polar bears—were known and even were in zoos. But the panda was not, and many people even thought it would be a ferocious bear. They thought this was going to be, you know, a combination of polar and black bears.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, yeah.

Nathalia Holt

So that's what the Roosevelts are going to. And so the expedition ends up being torturous, deadly. They're going through the Himalayas. They're not very well prepared. They lose all their food. They're attacked. They get lost. Just every crazy thing happens to them. But it's also a journey of transformation. They're documenting all of the ecology around them, and it really ends up changing their own worldview. And so it was such a fun book to research and to write. And I spent a lot of time also going into many of the other ex—many of the other members of the expedition, which was—which was fun, and maybe a little bit different than other books in this genre. But yeah, for me, you know, it's scary to be writing a part of history that is very different than what I've done before—but it's also fun.

Jess Lahey

Where'd the germ of the idea for the book come from? Because I had never heard this story before. I guess it had just never occurred to me—like, where do we—how do we know about the panda bear?

Nathalia Holt

Yeah, it's not a topic that has been written about much before, and I came across it while I was researching my last book, which is called Wise Gals, and is about women that helped form the CIA. And as part of that book, I was looking into the Roosevelts' role in World War Two. And it's so confusing when you research the Roosevelts, because they all have the same name. It's just Theodore and...

Jess Lahey

Actually, I have to tell you, Tim's a huge fan—my husband, Tim, who you also know, is a big fan and has read a lot about—and he's like, "Well, which Roosevelt?" So you—and I'm like, "Oh, that's a really good question. I don't know which Roosevelt... like, the adventuring ones." He's like, "Well..." [unintelligible]

Nathalia Holt

Yeah, there's so many of them, and they all have the same name. And so as I was trying to parse out son and father—who are both named Kermit Roosevelt and both served in World War Two—I kind of stumbled across this expedition that the elder Kermit Roosevelt had taken. So he and his older brother, Theodore, who were the sons of President Theodore Roosevelt, and so it just kind of—it came from there. Just sort of came from wanting to learn more about it. And I always love a challenge. If there's a topic that's difficult to research, that seems impossible to find anything about—I'm there. I want to know everything.

Jess Lahey

Yeah. So, okay, so here's a—really a question that I—well, first of all, you and I are both research geeks. I just—I have said I could just keep researching books and not actually write the books. I just love that process. So aside from the easy answer, which is Google, like, where do you start with a story that hasn't been told yet? How do you start diving into that story, and where do you find information?

Nathalia Holt

It's difficult, and it depends on the topic. For this one, I went through a number of different archives, and that was great. I was able to get old letters that the Roosevelts had. But I really wanted to bring in other voices. I was really, really persistent in my desire to bring in Jack Young, who was this young, 19-year-old, Hawaiian-born translator and naturalist on the trip. And I was fortunate enough that I was able to track down some interviews he had done with another author back in the 1990s, and I just was persistent. I just pleaded until I got these tapes and was able to get all these interviews with him. And then I also contacted his daughter, who lives in Hawaii, and was able to get his unpublished autobiography. And it gives such an interesting perspective, because Jack Young went on and became a very impressive person and really deserves a biography all of his own, but he was also very close friends with the Roosevelts. They had a real connection—a real bond. And you get a different sense of the story when you're hearing it through his descriptions of what it was like, because he is young, and he is sort of really documenting things for the first time. And then, in addition, I was so lucky with this book because I was able to also get the field journals from a scientist that was on the expedition, as well as all the writings from another naturalist. So it was fascinating, because there were so many different accounts of the same events, which really lets you go into detail about what it was like, what people were feeling, what they were seeing. And I don't think I've ever had that before—where I have so many different accounts of the exact same events.

Jess Lahey

That's really cool, because it gives you that ability to, you know—if we went with just Jack Young's account, then you've got the Jack Young lens. And as you well know, history gets to be told by certain people, unless someone like you comes along and says, "Oh, wait, this account has not been brought to the surface," whether it's the women who are the animators at Disney, or whether it's the women who are part of NASA. So how do you—if you go into something like this and you have a limited number of perspectives—it sounds like you had a fair number of perspectives going into this, but since the documentation happened—usually tends to happen among the more powerful, the more privileged people—how do you manage getting a full perspective on an event like this expedition when you may have limited perspectives?

Nathalia Holt

That is the real challenge, because it's easy to get the Roosevelts’ documentation.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nathalia Holt

I have all of their journals, all of their letters. I am able to get into real detail about what this expedition was like for them. Even the difficult parts—for them—they really documented that, and everything has been saved. For the others... it's much more difficult, and it really requires that persistence of being able to get the letters. Being able to get the autobiography was really key, because he goes into so much detail about what things were like. And these interviews that he did were also really, really helpful, because he goes into a lot of his feelings about what it was like to be with the Roosevelts on the expedition, about how he felt… Because his father was born in China, his mother was born in San Francisco, he himself was born in Hawaii—which, at that time, is not part of the U.S.—he feels like he doesn't have a country. He doesn't know where he is. So when he's in China, he can speak all of these languages, but he's still struggling to connect and be able to talk with people, because there are so many dialects.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Nathalia Holt

And so to be able to get into what that was like, and how he felt—just gives such a perspective—a different perspective of the expedition than perhaps what is usually had in these kinds of books. And he also talks a lot about the guides on the expedition, which was really interesting. There were a lot of women that were part of this expedition. Half of the guides, who kind of act as Sherpas—they, you know, they carry things, they lead the way, they guide the route, they make camp. And so there are just some great moments with these guides—especially the women guides—where they are just protecting from crazy marauders that have come down and have attacked the group. And lots of great moments like that. That was really interesting to document. And in addition, another thing I was able to get for this book is—there was actually some early video and a lot of photographs that were taken.

Jess Lahey

Oh my goodness.

Nathalia Holt

By one of the members. And that is just such an incredible thing—to be looking at video of this expedition in the 1920s—it's just amazing.

Jess Lahey

Okay, so geek question here, since this is definitely what our listeners like the most. So I haven't laid hands on the book yet, because it's not out yet—did you put photographs in the book? Were you able to get access to photographs, and did you put them in the book? And I ask that because whenever I write a proposal or we're working on a book proposal, we have to indicate whether or not there's going to be artwork, and that changes things in terms of budget, and it changes things in terms of permissions and stuff. And I was curious about—I’ve never dealt with that side of it before, but maybe you have.

Nathalia Holt

I have. I've always sent photographs, and I love it. Because I feel like it helps when you read the book—especially a book like this.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Nathalia Holt

You know, when I'm describing what they look like, and where they are, you want to see it with your own eyes. And so it's really interesting to be able to see those photographs. And I had so many, and it's always a challenge to parse out—who has the permissions? Where do they come from? Finding the photographs—this always takes forever. Fortunately, this particular book was maybe a little bit easier, because a lot of the photographs are out of copyright, that had been published at that time. So that was nice. But yeah, no, it was still just a mess, as it always is. It's always a mess to figure out who do photographs belong to. I feel like I would love to become a lawyer—just for that moment in researching a book.

Jess Lahey

That's a whole layer I've never had to go into. And it was easier for me to—rather than just say, "Yeah, I'd like to include this one thing," and then I realized the nightmare that's ahead of me in terms of accessing and getting permission and all that stuff. I'm like, "Eh! Let's just stick with what we got in the print." But, for something like this—and especially when you're writing about, for example, animation, or if you're writing about, you know, this expedition, and there's art available—you know, it sounds like it's really, really worth it for that aspect. I mean, that's definitely something I would want in this book. So I think I know the answer to this question. This is a heavily loaded question, but are you—when it comes to research and it comes to what you include in the book—are you an overwriter or an underwriter? Or do you land pretty much—like, when you're doing your editing, are you like, "Oh no, this was the perfect amount to include?"

Nathalia Holt

Oh, I'm a terrible overwriter.

Jess Lahey

Oh. So am I!

Nathalia Holt

It's really a problem. But I worked very hard on this book at cutting, and it was not easy for me, because I do always tend to go way overboard. I'm always over the word count that I'm supposed to be at—with the exception of this book, where I did a very good job of cutting it down and really trying to focus and not, you know, getting too distracted.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, we joke all the time with my other co-hosts and friends that my—like, my history sections in both of my books could have been half of the book or, you know... and all the stuff that ends up on the floor ends up getting told in cocktail parties. You know, "By the way, did you know how many, you know, kegs of beer there were on the ships that came over? I do. Can I share? Because I did all this work and I've got to put it somewhere." And there's this weird—there's this weird line between, "Look, look how thorough I am. Can I have an A+ for how thorough I am?" versus what your reader might actually be interested in. I keep some of my favorite notes from my former editor, and she's like, "Yeah, the reader... no. Reader doesn't care. Not going to care. You know, this may be really fun for you, but maybe not for your reader." So—but I can imagine with something like this, you know, the details of the flora and fauna and all that other stuff—it would be really easy to get off on tangents that are not necessary for the core mission.

Nathalia Holt

Yes, absolutely. But in some ways it was easier than my past books, because it only takes place over a year, which is incredible. Most of my books take place over decades, and the cast of characters is much smaller as well. And unlike some of my past books, I feel like I need to include everyone out of fairness—which is kind of a weird way to approach a book. I don't recommend it. That's not the way to do things. But yeah, if you're really just looking at a few—a handful of people—over a year, it's much easier to stay on track. So that was a good exercise for me.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, there's a—there's a line I love, where David Sedaris talks about the fact that what it takes for him to purchase something is if the clerk at the store has gone to the trouble to take it out of the case, to show it to him, and then he feels like he has to buy it because he—someone went through the trouble. And same thing for me. If, like, someone's going to go to the trouble to be interviewed, then cutting that entire interview, or cutting that whole through line, or whatever that person is a part of, is incredibly painful to do. And then I feel like—I feel obligated. So it's a difficult—it's a difficult balance, you know, between what your readers are going to actually want and what makes for a good book, versus doing right by the people who spent time talking to you. It's a hard balance to strike. Alright, speaking of being in the weeds and geek questions—so I'd love to talk to you a little bit. I was just—I'm mentoring someone for a little series we're doing for this podcast, sort of from soup to nuts, from the beginning of an—from the inception of an idea to getting a book out. And the very first thing she did was send something to me in a Pages document. And I had to say, "Hey, you might want to think about using Word or maybe Google Docs, because, like, I don't have Pages." So—some details about how you work. Number one, do you have a preferred app that you like to write in? Because I'm a Scrivener gal.

Nathalia Holt

I mean, I prefer Word because I feel like it is the most universal. It's the easiest to send to people... and so that's what I go with.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, I use Scrivener only because it allows me to blank out the rest of the world really easily. Okay, and then organizing your research. This is something—the question of organizing your research, how you know you're done researching and really just need to actually start writing the words—are the two questions that I get the most. Because the research could go—especially on a topic like this—could go on forever. So number one, given this voluminous research that you had, how do you organize your research? Do you use folders on your computer? Do you use folders in—you know—how do you do all of that?

Nathalia Holt

I do folders on my computer, and then I also do hard copies that I actually keep organized in real folders, which helps me, because then, if I'm going into a specific topic, a lot of times it can be easier to actually hold on to those documents and being able to see them. So I do both. Um, and...

Jess Lahey

Has everything pretty much been digitized in this area? Do you feel like—or do you have to go into rooms and, like, actually look at paper documents, and sometimes they don't let you scan those? So, you know, how does that work for you?

Nathalia Holt Yes, it's very difficult if they don't allow you to photograph them. Usually they do. Usually you can. So I have always had to digitize documents, and there's so many different ways to do it, but now it's much easier just to use your phone than anything else, which is great. Very happy about this development. And yeah, I think—I think maybe that's part of the reason why I do like to print things out is because that's how I was first introduced to the material, so it can be useful for me. But there's way too much material to print everything out. I mean, there's so many hundreds, thousands of pages even. And so it's always just going to be sort of key documents that end up making their way into the actual folders, and then the rest—it's just, you know, organized by topic. Make sure images are separate, by person.

Jess Lahey

So then, how do you know you're done? Like, how do you feel like you're at a place where I now know enough to come at this from—to come at the storytelling from an informed place?

Nathalia Holt

That is really a good question, and I'm not sure I can answer it, because I feel like you're never done. You're always going to be researching. There's no real end to it.

Jess Lahey

But you have to start. Well, and this—this takes—this is separate from the question of, like, how much research—how much research do you have to have done for the book proposal? Like take it for example, for example, The Addiction Inoculation, where I needed to learn, really, a whole new area... that was a year-long process just to write the proposal for that book, and then another couple years for the book. So, for me—and I'm very happy to say—I got to ask Michael Pollan this question, and he had the same answer that I feel like is my instinctual answer for this, which is when I start to say, "Oh, I'm starting to repeat. Things are starting to repeat for me," and/or, "Oh, I already knew that," and so I'm not finding out new stuff or encountering things I don't already know at the same rate. It's starting to sort of level off. Then I feel like, "Oh, I've got this sort of, like, you know, mile-high view of the—of the information," and I maybe have enough in my head to start actually being an expert on this thing.

Nathalia Holt

That's a good answer. That sounds responsible. I'm not sure that I do that, though. I think for myself, there's not a bad time to start, because it's going to change so much anyway, that for me, I almost feel like it's part of the learning process. Is that you start to write about it, and then as you go along, you realize, "Oh, this is not right. I'm going to change all of this," but it's all just part of helping you move along. And I think even from the beginning, if you start writing even just bits and pieces of how you want to write the scene, you want to think about this or outline it, that can be helpful, and it doesn't matter, because it's all going to change anyway.

Jess Lahey

That's true. I actually find I write—the way I write is very specific, in that each topic I'm going to write about in a chapter has a narrative arc, story that goes with it. So I—that narrative arc story gets written first, and then I drop the research in as I go along. But I remember, with The Gift of Failure, a book came out that had a key piece of research that then I had to go back and figure out, "Oh my gosh, this impacts everything." And so I had to figure out how to sort of drop that in. And I couldn't have done it at any other time, because the research didn't exist or I hadn't found it yet. So that's a tough thing to do, is to go back and sort of link the things to something new that you think is important. But the research part is just so much fun for me. Again, I could do that forever and ever and ever. Do you? So the other thing I wanted to ask... and this is selfishly... do you have large boxes in your home of all the research that you feel like you can't get rid of, even though you wrote the book, like, five years ago, ten years ago?

Nathalia Holt

I do not. I pare down.

Jess Lahey

You do?!

Nathalia Holt

After time, yes. It's hard to do, though, because it's hard to throw things away, and I definitely have folders that I keep. They're just full of things that I can never get rid of. And obviously it's all digitized as well, but there are things like that that mean a lot to me, that I can't get rid of.

Jess Lahey

Well, there's actually—this was a very selfish question, because I actually just went through and finally got rid of a whole bunch of stuff that... I felt like it was at the heart—it was the main research for The Gift of Failure, and I used it to mulch my gardens. I put—and so it was like this metaphorical kind of, like, knowledge feeding the thing that I care about the most right now. And so I used it to mulch all the paths in my gardens and create new garden beds and stuff like that. But I'm always curious about that. Like, I every once in a while see something on, like, "X"—what used to be Twitter—or someplace like that, like, can I get rid of the research from the book I wrote 25 years ago? Or is that too soon? Well, so when exactly does the book come out? Give us your—give us your pub date.

Nathalia Holt

It comes out July 1st.

Jess Lahey

Okay. And I have to say... cover is gorgeous. How did you land on that cover image?

Nathalia Holt

Oh, I really didn't get much say.

Jess Lahey Okay.

Nathalia Holt

The one thing I—I mean, you know, they have whole people that have skills that do these things, but one thing I was very passionate about was keeping the brothers on the cover in their expedition gear. So originally, the publisher had wanted them to be in suits on the front, and I just hated it. I hated it so much, because I feel like they need to be on the trail. You need to see them as they were on the trail. And so that's one thing I really pushed for. And I was fortunate that they—they listened, and they were okay with that.

Jess Lahey

Well, I'm just—I mean, this book is going to have such a great place alongside books like The River of Doubt and other, you know, really wonderful books that are about the expositions—that the expeditions that get taken by these historical fixtures—figures. And I'm just—I'm so excited for this book. I'm so happy for you about this book, because it is just—when I started telling people about the topic, they're like, "Oh, I would read that." And I'm like, "I know! Isn't that the best idea?" And that's part of the magic, is coming upon the really cool idea. And so I'm just really, really happy for you and really, really happy about this book and excited for it.

Nathalia Holt

Thank you. Oh, that's so nice to hear, especially because this was a very difficult book to get published. I mean, there was a real moment where I wasn't sure I was going to find someone that would...

Jess Lahey

Well, can you—I didn't want to ask it. You know, this is—having—doing a podcast like this, where we often talk about the mistakes, we talk about the blunders, we talk about the stuff that went wrong. It can be really, really hard because you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you, or you don't want to, like, make anyone think that this book wasn't anything other than a 100% lovely experience from beginning to end. But I would love to talk about that, if you're willing.

Nathalia Holt

Oh, sure. I don't really have anything bad to say about anyone. I think it's—I think it's understandable that people wouldn't naturally think I would be the best author to write this. I haven't written other books like it, and so it was a difficult book to sell. It wasn't easy, and it definitely crystallized to me how important it was that I write it. I really felt like this was my purpose. I really wanted to write it, and maybe it's good to have that moment, because it really makes it clear that this is something you need to do, even if it's not easy, even if it's tough to find a publisher. And I was fortunate that I did. You know, luckily, there was an editor that—sort of at the last minute—believed in it enough to give it a go. And yeah, it's just—it always feels like a miracle when the book comes to fruition and is actually published. It just seems as if that could never really happen, and this one was a difficult road to get there, for sure.

Jess Lahey

Well, especially since a big part of the proposal process is trying to convince someone that you're the—you're the person to write this book. And in this case, it's not so much because you're a subject matter expert going into it. It's that you're a really good researcher, and you're a meticulous writer and a meticulous researcher, and most importantly, this story speaks to you. And I think, you know, some of my very favorite nonfiction books that I recommend over and over and over again—narrative nonfiction—it's clear in the reading how excited the author was about the story, and I think that's part of the magic. So I think you're the perfect person to write it. I don't know what they could have—because if you are—if you're fired up about the story... And as an English teacher, and as someone who's had to convince middle school students why they need to be excited about this thing I want to teach them, the enthusiasm of the teacher is part of what can spark the engagement for the learner. So I think that's a really, really important part of any book. Plus, you got to—you're—as an author, you're going to have to be out there talking about this thing, and so you better love the topic, because you're going to be talking about it for ages.

Nathalia Holt

Yes, absolutely. I mean, no matter what, this is many years of your life that's dedicated to a topic. But I think it's—it’s a good lesson in general, that you can write in one genre and one kind of book for years, and then it might not be easy, but it is possible to actually break out of that and find other topics and other things you want to write about. We grow. We all change.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, one of my—one of, as our listeners will know, Sarina Bowen, one of my co-hosts and one of my best friends—she’s—she has written romance forever and ever and ever, and she's like, "You know what? I want to write a thriller," and it has been a really steep learning curve and also a huge effort to sort of convince people that she can do that too. But it's also really, really satisfying when you show your chops in another area. So—and I had an—as I was going through sort of the details about this book, and reading about this book, I was thinking, you know what this would be really, really good for? An exhibit at someplace like the Field Museum, or like an exhibit of—oh my gosh, that would be incredible. Like, if this is a story that hasn't been told, and there's a lot of art, and there may be video and photographs and all—and journals—man, that would make for an amazing—if anyone out there is listening, that would make for an amazing museum exhibit, I think. And of course, everyone's listening to me.

Nathalia Holt

That would be amazing.

Jess Lahey

Everyone is listening to me...

Nathalia Holt Oh, well, they should.

Jess Lahey

All right. Well, thank you so, so much. Where can people find you? And is there anything else you'd like to talk about that you're working on or that you're excited about? Besides, you know, just getting this book out into the world?

Nathalia Holt

You can find me at nathaliaholt.com and on Instagram and Facebook and X @NathaliaHolt. And yeah, right now I'm pretty much focused on this book. I have something else percolating, but it’s still away a good days. So it’s the fun research part. Isn’t that...?

Jess Lahey

You will notice I did not ask you what's next, because to be asked what's next when you haven't even birthed the thing you're working on now can be a little irritating. So as someone who's aware of this inside baseball, I didn't even. Later on—privately—I would love, because I'm a big fan, big excited about your work, and love, love introducing people to your work. So I think—and also, one of the things we talk about a lot on this podcast is having books that are exemplars of good research, of good storytelling. I have a stack of books that I keep near me when I need to dissect something to get at—oh, this person did a really good job with, for example, historical research, or this person did a really good job of using their expert voice, and I need to tap into that today. I think your books are—would be excellent, excellent selections for our listeners, for their pile of exemplars for really well-done research and telling other people's stories—historical stories that occur in a sort of in a modern context. Your books are really dissectible, and I know that's super high-level geek stuff, but they’ve really helped me become a better storyteller as well.

Nathalia Holt

Thank you. That's so kind of you. I really appreciate that.

Jess Lahey

All right, everyone—go get the book, read the book. Don’t forget to pre-order, because that really matters to us authors, and don’t forget to review it wherever you purchased it, once you have read it. And Nat, thank you so much. And I apologize for calling you Natalia at the top of the hour. I'm so just so used to doing that—Nat. And until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

The Hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output—because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 454 Mid-Year Check-In Jun 27, 2025

Our goal words, as a reminderSarina: presenceJess: growthJennie: Teflon™KJ: inner compass

#AmReadingJess: Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins ReidKJ: The Spy Coast by Tess GerritsenJennie: Shakespeare: The Man Who Plays the Rent by Judi DenchSarina: Say You’ll Remember Me by Abby Jimenez

Transcript below!

EPISODE 454 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, writers. KJ here announcing a new series and a definite plus for paid supporters of Hashtag AmWriting it's Writing the Book, a conversation between Jennie, who's just finished a Blueprint for her next nonfiction book, and me, because I've just finished the Blueprint for what I hope will be my next novel, Jennie and I are both trying to, quote, unquote, play big with these next go rounds, which is a meta effort for Jennie, as that's exactly what her book is about. And we're basically coaching each other through creating pages thoughts and encouragement, as well as some sometimes hard to hear honesty about whether we're really going in the right direction. So come all in on Team Hashtag AmWriting and you'll get those Writing the Book episodes right in your pod player, along with access to monthly AMAs, the Booklab: First Pages, episodes, and come summer, we shall Blueprint once again. So sign yourself up at AmWriting podcast.com

Multiple Speakers:

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, listeners, its KJ here. And this is Hashtag AmWriting, the weekly podcast about writing all the things, short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction. This is the podcast about getting that work done. And this week we're all here with a mid-year check in, but still introduce yourselves, people.

Jess Lahey

I'm Jess Leahy. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my journalism at The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Atlantic.

Sarina Bowen

I'm Sarina Bowen, the somewhat exhausted author of many romance and thriller novels, and my brand new one is called Dying to Meet You.

Jennie Nash

I'm Jennie Nash. I'm the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator and the author of 12 books in three genres. And today, not so tired. So you know, day by day.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yay. I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, the author of three novels, most popular, which is The Chicken Sisters, and the most recent is Playing the Witch Card. And also the former editor and lead writer of The Motherlode at The New York Times, which feels like a total past life, And this is our mid-year "Are we achieving our goals?" check-in, and I badly wanted to make fun of Jess, who said she had to go get her notebook—so she would know her goals. But then I didn't realize I didn't have to, I didn't know mine, so I had to go get my notebook. So now I can't, and it's pretty much a crushing blow to me. So anybody achieved anything so far? I can't. I can totally believe we're six months into the year. It's been a really long six months, and also, I haven't done anything. Okay, that's me.

Jennie Nash

KJ, you were saying that. Actually, it's funny, because you were saying that about was it January or February? You kept saying this month is lasting forever. You think you're just having that year.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I am.

Sarina Bowen

Aren't we all though?

KJ Dell'Antonia

I thought we were all having that year, but maybe not.

Sarina Bowen

I'm looking at my goals page here, and I'm kind of astonished to see that I really am accomplishing a lot of them, because every day feels like such a battle. You know, it's I have write a romance, write a thriller, plan another romance, and maybe revise this one other thing. And, man, I'm doing it. I have written the words count for one entire book, even though neither of them is finished yet, but I'm, I'm chugging along. The other stuff I wrote down for doing at home and in my personal life is sort of happening, but it just feels, um, it feels hard, like the weight of the world is weighing down on my week. And so it's actually kind of lovely to look at this and see like, oh, okay, yeah. Well, we're getting some of this done.

Jess Lahey

That's why we do this. That's why it's nice to check in. And I think it also, you know, it's, it goes back to a long time ago. We used to talk about accountability buddies, or accountability bunnies, as we have called them sometimes. And I think it's just great to have them, not just to hold you to task when you're not doing the stuff, but to help you, help you remember that it's important to check in and realize that we are getting the stuff done it may not look exactly like what we were expecting, and in fact, mine going forward, I'll go ahead and go next, because mine looks so different from what I expected it to be, and yet it's going really well. But before I move on, Sarina, is there any chance you could share with us for the big picture like mile high view, what was your word for this year?

Sarina Bowen

Well, I did just notice that I left...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh! I have it your word was "present". I wrote them down. Your word was "present".

Sarina Bowen

You know. And I am. I am not doing a terrible job on presence. I'm not doing a bad job.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Jennie, your word was "Teflon".

Jennie Nash

That's what I thought. Let's stick with Sarina a minute, though, because I'm fascinated by the fact that the way you're describing that you're feeling, and the fact that you achieve these goals and you feel like you're doing well, all of that happened despite the fact that you didn't think it was... like, it's just the daily actions that that lead up to the goals, right? I mean, that sounds silly, but that's like you sit down and you do the work, and you achieve the things.

Sarina Bowen

I guess I do. And part of what's disorienting about this year is that I'm actually writing less overall, and I am going more places. You know, presence means my presence is in several different states and countries, and so that it feels disorienting because I've had to be better at switching from working on the novel, to being on vacation with my family, to working on the novel, to doing a book tour in May, which was super time consuming. But I guess, you know, with some hiccups here and there, like I've been able to switch tasks in a way that is getting it done.

Jennie Nash

That's very cool.

Jess Lahey

It's also nice every once in a while, you know, to look back on those stickers that are on the calendar. And for those of you who have joined us recently, we haven't really talked about stickers in a long time, but our sticker thing is, you know, we all tend to have the same kind of plan book, and on our calendar we get a sticker if we reach whatever goal it was for that day. Often it's a word count goal, and it's really nice to be able to look back... well, I guess it depends on the month, but generally speaking, it's really nice to be able to look back at the calendar and see those little stickers. Plus at the first day of every month, we have a little text thread where we decide what the sticker is going to be, what kind of vibe we're feeling that month, because we do have a lot of stickers. There's a lot of stickers, but Sarina has been killing it with her stickers, and I'm very impressed with her.

Sarina Bowen

I do love to flip back and see how, you know, like, last month, it's like, oh, look at the good job you did. That's so pretty.

Jess Lahey

People ask me all the time if that undercuts that… you know, one of the things I talk about in The Gift of Failure and when I'm speaking at schools, is about, you know, trying to use the carrot and stick method to make kids do what you want them to do. And you're we're not supposed to rely exclusively on extrinsic motivators. We're supposed to rely on things that make us like want to do the thing for the sake of the thing itself. But when you when you reward yourself with something. It is an intrinsic process. And I think that the sticker, for us anyway, has been such a now, it's been going on for a long time, and it's such part of our language as a group of people, and it is really rewarding to slap that sticker on there.

Sarina Bowen

I really believe you about intrinsic versus extrinsic goals, because I know for sure that no sticker chart I ever made for one of my children was any damn good, but like but mine is for me, and that's why it works.

Jess Lahey

Do you know that there's an exception when it comes to sticker charts? There is one situation in which sticker charts work really well for kids, and that's potty training, because there appears to be something about getting out of the diaper and into big boy or big girl panties/underpants, that makes them intrinsically motivated to do it. So if parents out there hearing this and thinking, oh man, sticker charts don't work, and they don't over the long term, but for potty training, for some reason they do anyway, I think it's great. And plus, when we buy the stickers, we're just envisioning all that writing we're going to do. And so when you put the little sticker on there, it's our nice little reward. Am I going next?

Multiple Speakers:

[Overlapping voices]: Yeah. You go next. Go for it.

Jess Lahey

Alright. So my year, my word this year, was a really appropriate and very topic specific, uh, one for me, and my word this year was "growth". And many of you know, I went back and went back to school and I got my master gardening certificate, and I'm now in my intern phase. I have to do two; I have to do 40 hours of volunteer work over the next two years to get my full certification. Working on that. But all things, looking back the first six months of this year, which is when this class ran, and when I was doing studying like I had to study botany and entomology and all that sort of stuff, I have grown a lot this year. In other news, I also after 10 years of debating and planning and learning, I finally got a beehive. So I now have bees, and I have my gardens going. So for me on that side, growth is crazy. And then in terms of my goals, something really interesting happened. And this is another reason having other writers or creatives in your life so important. So I was really struggling with the book proposal I actually wrote. I completed it, and my agent was liking how it was going, and everything was good. And then I just realized through the process of writing it, that it wasn't feeling like the right thing for me to be writing right now. And Sarina had planted an idea in my head months before about something she really wanted me to write like it occurred to her that it would be a really good idea, and I poo pooed it at first, and then I let my brain sort of ruminate on it for a bit, and I realized, oh my gosh, you're right. This is such a great topic. So I started again, which is fine, it's my book proposal. I can do what I want people, don't look at me like that all of you people. They would never do that because they don't look at me like that. I started with a new topic that's really exciting for me, and also requires a lot of growth for me. This isn't like something I could just spit out because I already know the material, and I it's caught... it's forcing me to have to grow in some ways, especially as doing statistical analysis and things like that. And thank you, Sarina, because I know at the moment you mentioned it in the first place, I dismissed it. And I didn't mean to sound dismissive, but you were right. It was a really good idea.

Sarina Bowen

Wow, I didn't know. I mean, I remember this conversation so well, but of course, like it's kind of your friend's jobs to spit ideas at you, like nobody is under any obligation to weigh them. But I find that when people spit ideas at me, I often have an early No, and then it it almost always takes till later until I'm like, Oh, wait...

Jess Lahey

Yeah. Well, it wasn't until I do what I do as part of my process, which is to think, okay, from that angle, that's interesting. What would the chapters be? Let's say, just for fun, if I were to think about this, what would the chapters be? What might my introductory chapter look like? Oh, wait, there's that anecdote that would fit really well here. In fact, yesterday, I got a spam email that I saved because something in that email triggered an idea about something. So it's really... this one has been fun, and I have to credit Sarina with this one. So my goals are going to look a little bit different. But then this other thing happened, which is, I decided to start this new series for this from soup to nuts series that's sort of like a I have a really interesting idea for a nonfiction book. What do I do now? And you can get on that series if you if you become a supporter, because episode one was free, and the rest are going to be for supporters. And I'm guiding this person through the entire book process, the book proposal process. And I realized, aha, if I'm doing this in real time, this is a fantastic excuse for me to be doing the sections I'm assigning to her at the same time. So I'm working through my new proposal for this new idea at the same time she's working through her proposal, which also gets me in a really nice headspace for discussing those sections with her. I have to be very deep in those sections. She's working on her introduction right now and thinking about agents that she's going to query. And while I don't have to query an agent, I very much have to write the introduction. So we've been going back and forth on that, and it's caused me to have to think very deeply about mine too. So it's all, I think this is one of those, like, you know, right thing, right time. I like it. I'm happy, even though I haven't met the goals. I'm very happy.

Jennie Nash

Are you sharing what your topic is? The new topic?

Jess Lahey

Not yet.

Jennie Nash

Okay.

Jess Lahey

Not yet. Soon, I maybe, maybe for our end of the year, check in. I will.

Jennie Nash

Okay.

Jess Lahey

I don't want to lose the juju.

Jennie Nash

My Word of the Year, thank you for reminding me was—thank you for reminding me was “Teflon.” And the reason for that was I had been involved in a trademark battle last year that was very upsetting to me, and I was wanting to step into my power, I think, is what that word “Teflon” meant, and not be pushed around by the winds of fortune, but to stand strong, in what I was doing, and who I was, and what I was standing for. That's what that's what “Teflon” meant to me. And here in the mid-year, oh, my tangible goals were, I wanted to write a book this year, a book about writing and KJ and I have been doing a series where we have been chronicling that progress. And where I stand today is, I feel great about it. I feel great about it, and the process of writing it has been kind of aligned with that idea of Teflon, of keeping really understanding what I want to say, what I believe, stepping into that power. That's actually what the book is about as well. So it's very meta, and it's been hard, much harder than I thought it was going to be, and also much more satisfying than I thought it was going to be, which is nice. And my other goals had to do with my business. I needed to get my business into... the way I describe it is to get it into integrity. I, at the end of last year, 2024, I did a last chance sale on the price that my book coaching certification course was priced at, and the intention was that I needed to raise my price a lot to bring it into integrity with what we were offering and what it was. And I made those moves. I had that and end of year sale, I raised the price, and I joined a business mastermind of other entrepreneurs in nobody's in a space topically close to mine, but a lot of people are in spaces that are similar-ish and the they're all women. Well, that's not true. There's we have one man and are in our cohort, but just people really trying to step into their power as entrepreneurs. And and I've been really giving myself over to this, the work of this business mastermind, and to learning from the coach who's running it. And in terms of Teflon, it feels like all, all of a piece, all the same thing of becoming who, who I am, and really tapping into what I believe. And I've been really surprised at how much more there is to learn. My own brain, my own habits, my own tendencies, my own fears and weaknesses and strengths. It just as it just is really surprising to me, the older I get them, that there's still so much to learn. I don't, I don't, I guess I must have thought it so in some part of me that that you get to a place where you think you know everything, and it's just not true. It's just not true. So I've been really enjoying the learning, and I feel that my business is coming into a place that I always wanted it to be, and the word I would use for that is easeful, full of ease. And that doesn't mean that it's easy, but that it there's an elegance to it and a naturalness to it, and it keep using this word integrity, but it feels like a business that has a lot of integrity. And so I, too, Sarina, feel proud of this year so far and that I have done what I set out to do, and I find it curious that I have already raced to put in new goals and bigger goals and more goals, even for this year, that that it's not enough just to reach the big goals. So that's another topic, perhaps for another day, but kind of aligned with stopping to celebrate that you have achieved those things. I tend to be really bad at about that, and I just keep back filling new goals and new things. And, you know, the goal post keeps moving, but, yeah, I feel good about where I sit.

Sarina Bowen

Well, fantastic. My....

Jess Lahey

Super happy for you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Big surprise in opening my notebook is that I too, am exactly on track to achieve my goal. Because my goal, at least the only one in capital letters, is "COMPLETE NOTHING", and I, I, in fact, am exactly on track to complete nothing this year. I did put some things under that, which is, I do want to draft about a book, but draft means draft. It says that right here on this page; it says draft does not mean finish. So, um...

Sarina Bowen

And are we drafting?

KJ Dell'Antonia

We ,Well, we are sort of barely drafting, but we are, we are we are pulling together a book that is harder than the last ones that I have pulled together. I think, um. And my other goal for this year was my word was, well, they're words, but it was "inner compass". I am supposed to be stopping looking at other people to compare what I'm doing. I'm supposed to be letting other people, you know, do their thing without feeling responsible to it, listening to myself, not absorbing the tension of the world around me, and I, I am definitely still working on that. Like that has been a daily preoccupation of mine, is to work on this book, not some other book, not some more appealing book, not the book that some friend is is working on, not the book that I just read, that I really liked, but this book. Yeah, I'm I am doing it. I can't. I'm striving towards enjoying that process, right? Yeah, yeah. I want. I want. I don't want to be living so much in the world right now. That's and that's not actually a commentary on the world. I just think I need to write this book out of my own head. So it's kind of hard.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, it is hard, but it's also, you know, for me, sometimes reassuring, to find ways to block the other stuff out. I mean, I had to make a very specific choice this year to get off Instagram. I'm not off completely, but I'm on it a lot less because I was finding myself. We've talked about this before. We've talked about jealousy and we've talked about FOMO before, but I had some friends who had terrific success with a book, and they absolutely 100% deserved it. And the they got insane media. And every time I went on there, I would see them or someone else and get... I felt it happen in me, in that moment, I felt myself go. But why didn't I get that? Why didn't I do that? And I had to, and I turned to Tim and I said, I have to stop going on Instagram, because it's making me feel really bad about myself, and about and not good for my friends who are having these incredible successes. And so, you know, I think it's just a maybe it's because I'm not putting a book out this year or whatever, but I it was, it was forcing me into a bad place. So sometimes shutting that stuff out, man, it's been good. And you know, my new favorite thing to do, instead of going into on Instagram, is...

Jennie Nash

Bees!

Jess Lahey

And I sit, I know! I go up and I sit with them. And I was just talking to my dad about this. He said, you know, he was watching the bees with me. And he said, you know, you could, like, if you put a chair up here, you could just sit up here for a long time and watch the bees go in and out and see how much pollen is on their legs and all that sort of stuff. And I said, oh, no, I do that. I sit up there, and it's like “Bee TV”, and I watch them go in and out and in and out and in and out, and I just watch what they do. And that's I'm trying to anytime I feel the need to, like, get on Instagram. I'm like, No, go, and watch the bees instead. That's more fun anyway, and it doesn't make you feel bad about yourself.

Jennie Nash

I love that “Bee TV”. Come on. That's great.

KJ Dell'Antonia

They're pretty cool. I also love like, you know, like the this is where my head goes, and this is the thing I want to stop. Don't put, like, a camera on them and monetize them and, like, make them famous, viral bees, you know, like... ‘Come watch the bee camera channel and you can relax’. And like, I, I mean, you know, we totally do that, if you if you want to, but like, I need to stop having those thoughts about everything. Yeah, like, I have chicks? Should I be putting them on Instagram so everyone can see my chick? They're just they're chicks. I have chicks. It's fine to have chicks, without having chicks loudly, right?

Jess Lahey

Well, I actually had a really interesting— speaking of that. I had a very interesting moment where I realized I had been listening to music when I was gardening, and sometimes I’m listening to books. Shout out to Taylor Jenkins Reid’s new book Atmosphere. I couldn't gobble it down fast enough. But I also can't hear what the bees are doing when I'm listening to something. So I can't and I have to listen, because you can tell when they're starting to get upset by the sound of their buzzing. Not it gets louder, it gets more intense. Little things happen, and so you can sort of back off or use the smoker and calm them down a little bit. And it's been really nice. And so I've taken the ear buds out of the ears, but in the defense of the people who have gone before me doing this and took the time to film it, I've learned a ton from them. So I'm very grateful to a bunch of people who. Did think to turn the camera on the bees, but I'm not going to be doing that myself.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, that wasn't meant to like, you know, yeah, no, no, no there. And I was just watching a YouTube video to show me how to set up a smoker. I mean, you know, yeah, all that stuff is great.

Jess Lahey

Yeah it's, there's a I had to do something in the hive that really scared me. I had to get rid of some extra comb that was sticking up, and it's going to make the bees mad when you do it, because things are going to die, and I'm going to squish some things. And so I watched like, 10 instructional videos by other people on how to do it, so I'd covered every angle from an educational perspective. And Tim was like, “I have never seen you this intimidated to do anything... like you're so fearless”, and I'm like, but it’s the bees. I'm freaked. I'm going to hurt the bees. So I watched a lot of videos to do that, and that was great. I learned a lot. So anyway, ah, but no, I will not be monetizing my bees. Those are for me. Those are for me. Alright. How's everybody feeling? Everybody good? I think this is good. Because you all going into this, people are like, oh, no, I'm afraid to look at my word. What if I didn't accomplish anything? And I think all of us are sort of leaving this feeling like, Oh, we did some stuff.

KJ Dell'Antonia

This is good, yeah, at least being the person that I, that I that I wanted to be this year.

Jennie Nash

KJ, loved that you put complete nothing like you were trying to give yourself a break, right? You're trying to let yourself just be different, kind of be than bees, but and maybe you haven't allowed yourself that, but it gives you so much leeway, right? And drafting a book to your point is, there can be a lot of definitions of that.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, and I don't know, I just and I think it possibly has to do with having been in such a prominent and high profile position earlier in my career that I have this tendency to feel like, if I'm not getting feedback, I'm not doing anything. Like if I'm not sort of constantly, you know, loudly announcing myself to people, and telling them what I think, and what I'm doing, and how it feels to be doing the thing, and maybe what they should be doing, then I'm, I'm, you know, like, who even am I? And I can name like, writers that I want to be like, that are not like sort of living hugely and putting their chicks on social media unless they want to, like you could tell the difference between people who really want to and people who don't. And but I am scared that I am not as good as those writers, and therefore I should probably just stick to being a shouty person begging you to pay attention to me and I, yeah, um, I'm definitely just sort of trying to figure that, figure out my way within that world right now.

Jess Lahey

Fair enough. Yeah, sometimes you need to do that.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Jess Lahey

Alright. Well, I like it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Okay. Well, we know Jess has read something good lately because she mentioned, yes, Taylor Jenkins Reid’s Atmosphere. Atmospheric?

Jess Lahey

Loved it. I listened on audio, by the way, and there are two female audio book narrators, one whom you probably have heard of a million times, Julia Whelan, who's everywhere, and she's fantastic. And then the other one I'm going to look up so that I can come up with it. But um...

KJ Dell'Antonia

While you're looking her up, I wanted to say... I was trying to figure out why I'm not going to read this, this book. I like, love Taylor Jenkins Reid, I've loved her last ones, and I was, I don't like, I only like space books if they're like, set in the future, and space is sort of under control. Other than that, a space book, to me, is like a water book. And I, I don't, I don't like it. It's too much scary, okay, too much scary, unwieldy stuff. So I don't plan on reading this.

Jess Lahey

It's just so you know, it's hardly about space. And by the way, the other narrator, narrator is Kristen DiMercurio, and it is a it is a romance, it is an adventure, it is a thriller. It's all those things, and it's just, she's, she really, the language is really, she's the language is just great.

KJ Dell'Antonia

But also, there's plenty of books. It's fine. If one does not interest you in this moment, read a different book. It's all good.

Jess Lahey

Absolutely.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Jennie Nash

I'm so curious. I know this is a ridiculous question to ask any writer, but how she lands on her topics. Because, like, tennis, you know, Malibu, celebrity space, like, it's so great, and...

Jess Lahey

She had to do a lot. Lot of research for this book, because there's a lot of really highly technical stuff, and her protagonists are highly technical people. And so yeah, that she had to do a lot of research.

KJ Dell'Antonia

The Book Riot people pointed out that she's kind of the queen of women doing jobs.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, But to also Lauren, Christina Lauren, also, they are big fans of like, they're, you know, agents, they're dude ranchers, they're, you know, they hop from thing to thing, and that's one of the things I enjoy about them. It's sort of like I could do this, or I could do that, and you get to, like, sample all these different lives through the characters that they do as well. Anything else people have read?

KJ Dell'Antonia I just finished the book.

Multiple Speakers:

[All laughing]

KJ Dell'Antonia

Thank you. I just finished Tess Gerritsen’s The Spy Coast at Sarina's recommendation, and it was so good, just really endlessly, just really entertaining. And not a low stress read, but a really great read. I'm going to read the next one.

Jess Lahey

It's on my list too.

Sarina Bowen

Then I would like you to know, that the next one I actually feel might be even better.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, can't wait.

Sarina Bowen

Because she's done such a fantastic job of setting up this pretty unusual group of people. And in the second book, she really like... not eases, but sort of sinks into it and let’s, lets the strange setup really play out in a way that is totally charming.

Jennie Nash

Well, I've had rocky personal things going on in the last month, and so my reading has been sort of interestingly. I've gravitated towards different things that I might normally and there's a book that I've been gravitating toward at night when I want to sort of turn my brain off and just get ready to go to bed. And it's called Shakespeare: The Man Who Pays the Rent by Judi Dench. And it is the most charming book you will ever read. It's, it's Judi Dench talking to her friend, Brendan O'Hea about the roles that she's played over the years, the Shakespearean role she's played over the years. And so you'll get a chapter on like Lady Macbeth. But it's, it's just Judi Dench riffing about like that time when Anthony and, you know, Sir Anthony, and she's talking about, you know, like all the famous actors, and it's, and then she's, you know, Brandon will ask her, Well, how do you play the scene when she's, you know, washing her hands or whatever, and she'll just say these very charming things about... it's just so fun and insightful, and you can just, it's almost like reading poems. They're just little snippets of, oh, now we're going to read about when she played Titania. And it's just so great. So it's just nothing but total delight. And it also makes you realize the incredible work that actors do. So...

Jess Lahey

I may have to do that one on audio, because I'm assuming she reads that one, and oh my gosh, that would just be an amazing audio read.

Jennie Nash

She does. And my daughter listened to it and said, it could not be more charming. Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Sarina, have you read anything lately?

Sarina Bowen

I am in a big drafting phase and not a big reading phase, and everything I checked out of the library ends up being recalled before I finish it. It's just really pathetic over here.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, I'm going to, I'm going to do one for you then. We both read, Say You'll Remember Me by Abby Jimenez. And we enjoy Abby Jimenez.

Sarina Bowen

Yes, we did!

KJ Dell'Antonia

We both enjoyed the heck out of that one. And also it has lots of career in it. If you like a hot vet. Yeah, that’s a hot vet book.

Sarina Bowen

It was darling. And what we especially loved about it is how much she gets out of a book that, on paper, not a whole lot happens, which sounds like a condemnation of the book, but it's absolutely not. Like she just doesn't need... big drama to make this book fantastic. And that was just really skillful.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, no, it's, it's excellent, huge fun. Alright, kids, we would love to hear, if you, I mean, go back, look at your goals from the beginning of the year. Are you also surprisingly achieving what you set out to achieve? Um, or, you know, do you want to regroup? What's going on with you? We would, we would love to hear back. If you hit the show notes and comment in the in the comments, we will absolutely talk back to you, because, you know...

Jess Lahey

Yeah, yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's our idea of fun.

Jess Lahey

Might even have to do a little chat thread in, in, in Substack when this comes out. Well, we'll see how it goes.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, I don't know. People don't seem to love chatting or comments. I can't figure this out. We cannot figure out how to talk to y'all, but we would like to. We're trying. Okay?

Jess Lahey

We very much miss some of the forums part of it, but we'll figure it out. Alright. This has been fantastic, and until next week, everyone keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. The Hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Ultimate How To: Write, Pitch, Maybe Publish with Kate McKean from Agents+Books Jun 20, 2025

This is the how-to book you need right now, the one with “am I ready to query” and “what does my platform need to look like” and “what if no one buys my book” and “what happens if someone buys my book”. We have a great episode, talking about creating this book, writing this book and living this book—because Kate McKean is not only a very experienced agent, she has also lived the answer to all those questions and that’s part of what makes it special.

Follow: Kate McKean Agents and Books

Also find her at agentsandbooks.com

And buy this book! Write Through It: An Insider’s Guide to Publishing and the Creative Life

#AmReading

Kate: Madeleine Roux, A Girl Walks into the Forest (Dark, feminist and rage-y)

KJ: Francesca Segal, Welcome to Glorious Tuga (not any of those above things)

Alison Espach, Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance (somewhere in between)

Writers and readers! KJ, here. If you love #AmWriting—and I know you do—and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly #AmReading— find it at kjdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing. Your #tbr won’t be sorry.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 453 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Writers and readers, KJ here, if you love Hashtag AmWriting, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly Hashtag AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else I’ve been hashtag am doing, sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done, which I mean that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at kjdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing. Or, of course, in the show notes for this podcast, come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.

Multiple Speakers:

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is Hashtag AmWriting the weekly podcast about writing all the things, short things, long things, pitches, proposals. This is the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done. And I interviewed someone last week, who told me that they did not realize I did the introduction live, to which I was like, "Wait, does it sound the same to you every time?" Because I don't know, in my mind, I go off on a tangent every single time. So I am KJ Dell'Antonia, as you probably know, author of three novels and a couple of nonfiction books, and former editor at the New York Times, and, gosh, I have, I have done a bunch of things, but I'm not going to tell you about them right now, because I am really excited about my guest today, who is Kate McKean, and she is the creator of Agents and Books, which is a Substack slash, an email newsletter. For those of you that are not Substack users, you don't have to know what that is to get this, but I'm telling you fundamentally that if you're listening to my words right now, you should be signed up for that, and you're probably going to need the book that we're talking about, which is called Write Through It: An Insider's Guide to Publishing and the Creative Life. It is excellent. It is all the books that I relied on deeply when I got into this industry, rolled up in one book, which doesn't mean you won't buy all the others, because we're writers, and that's what we do. We buy books about writing. We're supposed to right? But I feel like sometimes that's what we do, we buy books about writing, anyway. All right, I'm done introducing, Kate I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for coming.

Kate McKean

I'm really happy to be here. I'm excited to chat.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, this is going to be good. So this is, this is the book that anyone who is considering traditional publishing needs as both an encouraging guide to how hard it is going to be to get to all the points that you need to get to be ready to even try to traditionally publishing, and then to the process of traditionally publishing. This is how do you know when you're finished? This is how do you know when to pitch? This is how do you pitch. This is how do you deal with the inevitable rejections when you are pitched, this is what happens next. This is the good news and the bad news and the other news and all the news. And the blurb on the front is that it is a wildly generous guide. It is from Sarah Knight, who I adore, and it is! That is, that is most accurate...

Kate McKean

Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Blurb that I have ever read, I think, or...

Kate McKean

Sarah was so kind to read. I know she reads the newsletter too, and we know each other from way back when she was an editor at Simon Schuster. And I could not be more grateful that she said the kind words she did.

KJ Dell'Antonia

She's amazing, and they are and you this is a generous book. So I do have questions, but first I just have to gush for a while. So...

Kate McKean

I’ll take it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I have kind of an unspoken policy of being very judicious in taking writing advice of any kind from someone who has not published. And there are 100% exceptions to that. I have an amazing freelance editor who she reads and she edits and wow. But there are also people who write books about writing from a place of having written things, and that's about it. And. And you know that truly, I mean, first of all, you're, you're an agent, you've, you know, you've been in this industry, you've got masses of experience. And secondly, although this is your first published book, it is not your first finished book, it is not...

Kate McKean

Not at all.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Even your first pitched book. It's not the book that got you an agent. And you are so generous in sharing those experiences with people, and they're going to help.

Kate McKean

I hope so. I mean, it's not lost on me that the first published book I have about writing and publishing books, and I even say it in the book. You know, I've tried to sell several picture books and several novels, and maybe I'm just not a great fiction writer. You know, it's very possible that is true. We'll find out. I don't know. I do have a picture book coming out in 2026, so one of them did eventually work. It's coming out with Sourcebooks, and I'm very excited. It's, you know, I know that people probably think, Oh, well, you're just, you're an agent. You could just, like, walk into a publisher and get a book deal like my friend. I am sorry that it's not true. If it had been true, I would have written 50,000 books by now, because I actually really, I mean, it's my job, but I also like doing it myself, but I'm not. I'm not special, you know, like I'm special and privileged because I know all the ins and outs, but I'm not. Nobody's just like rolling out the red carpet and handing me 1000's, billions of dollars to write a book.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, what I have said about about my fiction writing experience was, and I feel quite certain it was true for you as well. The thing that I had, and I will own it, is that I knew the people that I was sending my query to would look at it, because they knew who I was. That actually just meant it had to be awfully good, because it also means they're going to remember who you are. And if it sucks, they'll remember that next time. Whereas, if you don't have that particular thing and you send out a query that that sucks, the agent is not going to remember your name. So the next time you roll around and you send a better query, it's going to be fine, but the next time that writer rolls around and sends a better query. People are going to be like, well, yeah, I don't know.

Kate McKean

Yikes!

KJ Dell'Antonia

This was not so great.

Kate McKean

Yep!

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yikes! I got to do this again. I got to send another tactful rejection to this person that I so they're coming into it with... So it's good...

Kate McKean

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Because you know, people read it and it's not the slush pile and yay. And it's bad because people read it.

Kate McKean

People, people really do think that it's who you know and publishing, and of course, that helps, like you just said.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Kate McKean

But also, you don't want to send your books to your best friends. Like, J im McCarthy at Dystel, Goderich & Bourret, who my agent is—Michael Bourret at Dystel Goderich & Bourret. Jim is one of my best friends in the entire world, in my life. Like, I do not want Jim to be my agent, even though he's fantastic, because I prefer Jim as my friend. Michael and I have been friends for more than 20 years. Jim and I are much closer. And it's not like, oh, I could just throw away my friendship with Michael, but we just know each other in a way that would lend us to be able to work together really well. And I...

KJ Dell'Antonia

My agent is my friend...

Kate McKean

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Because she's my friend, but she was my agent first. But I have a friend, a really good friend, that I have dinner with regularly, that's an agent we ditch about, dish about, and we just have, you know, and I don't want her to be my agent, because then we couldn't talk so much smack about…

Kate McKean

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You know, among other things, and yeah. So yeah. I mean, I do like to to start. I like to remind people that it is actually not who you know in this it's faster to get people to read something if you have a way in, we cannot deny that. But people are actually out there looking for great things. You just have to write a great thing, which you know that's hard.

Kate McKean

Impossible sometimes.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Or impossible sometimes. All right, so how did you decide to do... write through it? Did it seem like kind of the obvious thing? Or did you feel like, oh, that's been done. Like, how, how did you come to this one?

Kate McKean

I, I definitely started the newsletter with the idea in the back of my head that maybe this could turn into a book. Because I had, I had turned newsletters and Twitter feeds and Instagrams and all kinds of things like that into books for 20 years. So obviously that was in the back of my head. But I also knew that there are, as you said, tons of other books about writing and publishing out there, and who am I? And what different thing could I bring to the table? And so I started Agents and Books with just a clear goal of, like, writing posts that were like the nuts and bolts of publishing, so that people could have them in this one little place, you know? And it's not the only place in the world you can learn about publishing. But I was like, I want a little place where, you know, if you can click through and find out about option clauses and query letters and, you know, all the little commission rates and royalties and what's earning out and all these things that you could kind of go to one place and click around and see if you could find it, and that was the goal. And then I also ended up talking a lot about the feelings of writing, because they go hand in hand. You know, it's like you're going to write a bad query letter if you are terrified of writing a query letter, and you're going to put agents on these pedestal if you are terrified of agents that you know, like there were these magical beings that can, like, take our magic wands and bestow the power of publishing on you, like we can't... we're just people who like books like, so I wanted to demystify things. I wanted to like, share the nuts and bolts, but, and I wanted to let everybody know that everybody feels this way, like everybody is terrified, everybody hates it. You know, no one is alone and that that felt like the right tack to take in a book, because I guess I hadn't seen that before, or what hadn't, you know, come right out and said it, you know, like, here's how to write query letter, and here's how not to lose your mind while you do it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Kate McKean

You know, because the same, that’s the same thing, and I thought about it for a long time, you know, to try the right pitch, honestly, for the book.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, no, I can. I mean, one glorious thing that this has going for us at the moment, even besides that, is that it is very timely and immediate. Because I can give you some things about writing query letters that are probably somewhat out. I mean, they're good, but they date quickly. So it has that. But also, you are right. I've not seen that combination of both. Here's how and here's how not to be so terrified that you screw up, and here's how to feel when they start coming back. Or, you know, here's how you're going to feel, because you really don't need me to tell you how to feel. But here's some thoughts on like how to deal with that, and the fact that it has happened to everyone, and also the fact that it has happened to you. Um, I'm that's terrible. I wish you had every single success, but also, since you didn't, I am so grateful that you put that in here.

Kate McKean:

I mean, my—you know—my beloved book of my heart, literary adult novel, didn't sell. And okay, it did. It didn't. I don't... I can't... I can't magically make it a book. It might be flawed. I don't know. I haven't read it in, like, four years, and I'm fine with that. Um, but I'm going to—I'll just—I'm going to... I'm going to write another one, you know? Because what are the options? Like, I really—I had a moment when my adult novel didn't sell, and I was like, I might—what if I never publish a book? Like, this was my dream. Like, since I was eight years old, I wanted to be a published author. I wanted to see my book on a shelf with my name on it, and what if I don't? Like, what if that just will never happen to me? And it kind of—you know—punched me in the stomach, and... This is telling in so many ways, of the assumptions I was making and the privilege I had and all of these things. But you know that punch in the gut could have made me stop and just be like, "Well, I'm not willing to face that, so let me decide..." Or, if I really want it that bad, I got to go do it again. And just—I'm choosing to do it again. And I cannot control if I publish any more books, except by writing them.

KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah.

Kate McKean

And then that's all I can do. And then I have to hand it over to the other forces in the world to see if anybody likes it. And then, you know—I mean, people got to buy this book, like... but not—I mean, it's not going to be great if nobody buys this book, which, you know... I—it... I can only control so much of that too. But I hope people do.

KJ Dell'AntoniaAt least ten people need to be sitting down and clicking right now. It's Write Through It: An Insider’s Guide to Publishing and the Creative Life, Kate McKean— is it Kian or Keen?

Kate McKeanKeen.

KJ Dell'AntoniaKeen. Kate McKean.

Kate McKeanYeah.

KJ Dell'AntoniaM-C-K... you know, what if you just start with "writer"... I mean, honestly...

Kate McKeanThere's only two Kate McKean’s in the world on the internet. So I'm one of them.

KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd I feel like, if you just sort of go "agents," "books," "book," "K," you're going to come up with this. Because...

Kate McKeanYep.

KJ Dell’Antonia:

Yeah. That's what's going to help. And the other thing that I really like about this book is the honesty about all the time that you spent not writing, and I mean, you've already said it, but, and it is true. My number one favorite, well, one of my favorite writing books, which nobody else, as far as I know, has ever read, is it's called something like “87 reasons your book won't sell” [78 Reasons Why Your Book May Never Be Published and 14 Reasons Why It Just Might]. It's, you know, and it's in its 80… and 15 why it might and the number one reason, the first reason, chapter one, is because you haven't written it yet. You can't sell that. But, I mean, yeah, proposals, fine. That's but, and that's in here if you're writing nonfiction, it's in here to talk about how to do a proposal. But even that, if you haven't written your way to a good proposal, that's not going to sell either. So...

Kate McKean

And the fear of being late or too late, or you hang missed the bus is so tied up into that, because I'm going to be 46 this weekend, and I my first ever book will be coming out after I have turned 46 and if you had told me at 26 I would have, like, lied down on the floor and cried. That I had 20 more years to wait to get published, because I thought it was going to happen. You're not, you know, all of the bravado and the ego is you have when you're in your 20s and who's, you know, patted on the head for their whole life and told they were a good writer by every English teacher, you know, bully for me. But like the I didn't write any books, you know, like, I didn't write any books to get published until I was in my 30s, and I couldn't have spent any more time doing that because I was trying to build my career as a literary agent. And that wasn't, that wasn't on purpose. I just had to pay the rent too. So, you know, it was I didn't. I dragged my feet for many, many years, as I write about in the book, and then I had a kid, and then you get... you have so little time that you have to choose so deliberately what you do that it can sometimes make you more productive. And so when I had all the time in the world in my 20s as a single person in New York City, living the life of putting everything on credit cards and being in massive debt and not making any money in publishing, but still having buckets of time. I didn't do any meaningful work, and I didn't write a book in my MFA program. I did write a book's worth of stories and essays, but not anything that could have been published as is, and nothing that I used as a springboard for a longer piece, and that’s just what happened. That's fine too.

KJ Dell’Antonia:

Yeah.

Kate McKean

But I'm not late. This is, this is, I needed to be this person to write this book, and then we'll see what happens next.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. I mean, you know, you can't start any sooner than today if you're starting and but I did. I just I appreciated that this book kind of starts with, go ahead, read this book, but also finish your book. Write what you're writing, like, read it. Get ready, daydream, hope for the best, but also find a time, sit down, get some work done, which is, of course, what we say every week on the podcast, because if you don't do the work, yeah, there's nothing. There's nothing anyone can do for you. Well, I mean, I suppose you could become a famous person and then hire someone else, but that is presumably not anyone trajectory, yeah, that's, that's, that's different. That's, that's not the same thing, all right, so what? What was the hardest bit of writing this? This has got a chapter on pretty much anything anybody could imagine. How to read a book deal, how to query, how to you know, how the editors work, how books are sold, all those things. What was the toughest bit?

Kate McKean

The tough bit, honestly, was the what happens after the book sells. And because I realized that I had, I had a view of it for my seat as a literary agent, and every publisher does it a little bit differently and but I've only seen it through the eyes of the books I have sold. So I had to go and ask a lot of editors. I was like, Okay, this is what I think happens. Is this what happens like, when do you get first pass pages? And, you know, do I get? When does the index gain? You know, like, there were just questions I had. I had to make sure I had a consensus answer instead of the this is what happened to me answer, you know?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Kate McKean

Or this is my what I think answer. And so it just was, I had to make sure. I had to do more research about that than I anticipated, because I didn't want to make I wanted to make sure I wasn't wrong. You know? Hey, I had to make sure. But it wasn't a hard the writing process at all wasn't what I would call hard. I I'm a fastidious outliner, and I love an outline. Outline is my roadmap, like I know where I'm going in the morning I makes me happy. I'm happy to change it, if I have to, but I love it. I'm an outliner, not a pantser, and when I get going, I can go, but then there's just every other million things to do with a book, you know, like the nine times I've read, and then I recorded the audio last week, and which was so fun, but hard, very, very hard. But maybe it's a little bit like, you know, like you kind of forget the hard part after a while, but I don't have any, like, real pain points with the creation of this book. It was definitely hard. It is a lot of labor. It is a lot of time. There were many times where I was like, if I read this paragraph one more time, I will scream, but yeah, I’d do it again.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So it sounded as I as I read through it like, like, finding your structure was maybe a little more challenging than you expected it to be, because it seems like it would be pretty obvious, but then it sounds like there were things where you're like, well, maybe this goes here, or maybe it goes here. Did it surprise you how much you had to play with the structure in the editing?

Kate McKean

Yes, it because everything made sense when it came out of my brain.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Of course.

Kate McKean

You know, like I could, it makes sense to me that this linked to that and then get... you have an editor. My editor, Stephanie Hitchcock, was wonderful. She was like, oh, yeah, this part does not make any sense. And I was like, Oh, totally. If you step out of it and look at it through somebody else's eyes, you're like, Yeah, I didn't explain anything about, you know, royalty statements or whatever, right?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, the rule is if somebody else says it doesn't make sense, you have to listen. You don't have to do what they say to do to fix it, but you do have to, you have to... Yeah, because you can't hold the reader by the hand. Say, oh, no, no, no. See what I meant...

Kate McKean

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a lot of times the way I wrote the outline was kind of the way it came out of my head and it made sense, but, you know, I’m in a vacuum.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So I'm torn between talking about the writing of Write Through It and talking about, of course, the contents, which are exactly what our listeners are going to be interested in. So tell me what in here to you, sort of answers the most questions that you get as somebody who gets a lot of emailed questions about this process, because you invite them by having, having an email or having, not by having an email address, which is not an invitation to send people questions. People questions, but by having the agents and plus and books email you, you've put yourself out there as a guide for people and there, I mean, I can name only a few agents in the business that do that, and a couple of publicists, and that makes you like, you know, it gives you a certain profile, and people ask questions. So what in here answers the most questions to you?

Kate McKean

I think, I personally, I would say the stuff about a platform, about the marketing stuff and platform. Everybody's worried about their platform. Everybody thinks they have to have 1000 followers on Instagram. Everybody was so worried about this. They and it's, it's shifting all the time. I mean, I hope, I hope we don't get 16 new social media platforms in the next month so that this isn't completely out of date, like things are going to change. I mean, Twitter completely changed while I was writing this book, but I but there's a lot about social media in there, yes, but there are so many other things that are your platform that people don't realize and they think that you have to have these numbers before you're allowed to write a book. And that's not how it is. That's not the rule. There isn't this, like, okay, where you get so many on this platform and so many on that add them together, it equals a book deal. Like, no, but it... the reason you need a platform is because you are going to do this marketing for your book, and that is also okay, because you are going to do it better than the publisher. A lot of you know angst about publishers don't market anything anymore, and nothing ever happens. And like they actually do, could they do more? Yes. I wish every book had a billion dollar marketing budget and 17 people to work on it, but that is not the industry we have. So...

KJ Dell'Antonia

There's not really anywhere to do this stuff anymore.

Kate McKean

Yeah, yeah, there's nowhere to do it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I mean the world... the world has changed.

Kate McKean

Yeah, there's, yeah, there's no news coverage for books, hardly anymore, you know? And algorithms are horrible, all these things. So, so if you have a way for readers to talk to you directly and get news from you directly, that's your primary marketing outlet. And so that's why you need it, not because the number equals book deal or validation or proof. It's because that's how you sell books. And it's not the only way, and it's not even a great way, but it is a way that readers need, even, I mean nonfiction 100%, it's like one of the most important things when you're writing nonfiction, and it’s getting to be more important for fiction. It's just also more it's useful when you're writing fiction, but it's just not as like, don't, don't even try until you've started a TikTok or whatever.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, I just, I just finished a novel that I completely enjoyed, Welcome to Glorious Tuga by — I think her name is Francesca. It's either Sega or Segal [Francesca Segal]. And after I finished it, I thought to myself, you know, I wonder, because, because I'm a writer, readers don't do this, but Is this her first book? You know, does she? Is she somewhere where I can follow her? Because I'm kind of interested in how she did this, I'd like to, and I went to look her up. And fundamentally, this is a person with very little platform that I can see. They turned out to be British. So that is, I think, a little bit different. But there wasn't an email that I could sign up for. There wasn't... I was willing to do all those things. I was kind of jealous.

Kate McKean

Definitely, oh, definitely.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Kate McKean

My wonderful assistant isn't on social media. And I'm like, Wow, what a life, that's amazing.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, so, I mean, so I there was very little point to that other than that, it's not, apparently required, and yet it's probably required of you. Sorry.

Kate McKean

Right, you're not the except…, like, if you don't want to be on a specific platform, then don't do it, because you'll make bad posts.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yes!

Kate McKean

Hate it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yes.

Kate McKean

Fair game, and also, if your market isn't on there, then don't go on there, or you don't prioritize that.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. But you can still find me on TikTok, and if you would like an example of how to not do something like that. That would be it. Yeah, there's about six things that are pitiful and sad, and I regret them, and I should go take them down, but that would involve looking at them again, and that would be really embarrassing for me. So I'm not going to do it.

Kate McKean

I mean, I'm not on TikTok. I do Instagram reels. They're horrible. Reels are like bad Tiktok’s from three weeks ago, but doesn't whatever. It's what I have chosen to do. But if, but to the writers out there, if you hate something like you can kind of maybe opt out a specific thing, but that doesn't make you the exception to every rule, right? Like, just because it's hard doesn't mean you get to bail out because everything's hard and you got to do hard things all the time. That's life. Sorry. So yeah. And also, I want to say too, if you are unsafe on a platform. Don't be there, no, but don't that's not a question. No publisher would be like; you should really be on Twitter. And you're like, I'm a trans person. I'm not going to go on Twitter. It is not safe for me. And they’d be like...they're like, yes, cool, cool, yeah, no problem.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah…definitely not. Yeah. So okay, that that doesn't surprise me. I thought you were going to say query letters, but...

Kate McKean

I was going to say query letters, but every it's, it's so much, there's always so much query letters.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah and there's others, there's, there's more of an answer to that, like...

Kate McKean

Yeah, yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You know, there is a way to do that. There's an accessible, checklist-able, figure out, able, learnable process for that, I would argue that there is not that for social media and platform.

Kate McKean

100%.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That is a really is a it's constantly changing, and it's different for everyone which query letters really, they do change, but they are not different from everyone. Do not make your quality query letter different from everyone else's. That's a bad idea.

Kate McKean

No. It's so annoying. It's, it's, no one is going to be wowed by the inventiveness of your query letter, and it’s like sending a singing telegram to apply for a job. You're like, No, don't. Don't do that. No one wants to hire you, if that's what you're going to do.

KJ Dell'Antonia

What is… can you... can you give us an example of someone getting creative with a query letter, just for fun that is not going to out the person?

Kate McKean

You know, I would say that. Now, everyone is much more educated about query letters, and so the random stuff doesn't happen as often. The memorable things are people doing. And these are the general examples you'll get too. It's like writing the query letter in the voice of your character, which is like, okay, but I'm not signing your character up. I'm signing you up. I would like to talk to them please, you know? And then there's the inexplicably, inexplicably short ones that are like, here's my book. Thanks. You're like, I need context. Like, even when you go to the store to buy a book, you have context for what you're shopping for you know what section you're in. You know if it's a hardcover, paperback, whatever you have context. And if you do not give me context for a query letter, I don't know what you're talking about. And then the ones that really get me too are the ones that are like, you're probably going to hate this. I'm like, okay, cool. You just made the decision for me. Thank you. I have to make 400 decisions today, and now it's 399 Cool. Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so get that one right. But social media, there is no recipe, but at least there is some advice in, in Write Through It. And yeah, I can't, I can't say enough about how much I suspect most of our listeners would really benefit from and love this book. If you have not, yourself, been in the industry for 20 years, and even if you have, you're going to get stuff out of this. What I got out of it, and what I desperately needed was somewhere, I think, towards the end, you talk about how, you know, 20% of the way into a draft, you're going to hate it, and then with 20,000 words to go, you're going to hate it. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm there. I'm hating it. We joke around the podcast that we need to create, like, a, like a book growth chart, sort of like for babies, like, oh, you hate your book. You're right on target. Feed it some solid foods next.

Kate McKean

Yeah, exactly.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Kate McKean

And I get a lot of when you go to write another book, you you're like, wow, yeah. And that's what did I forget. Did I ha, but I did it before. You don't know, you don't know how to write this book. You wrote that book, and it's different every time. And that's like a learning curve that you don't get to until you write your first one, whether it's published or not. But like everybody feels this way, my clients, who are graphic novelists, feel this way. My novelist, my, you know, picture book writers, like every single writer I talked to has been like, oh, how do you do this again? Whoops, I forgot.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, yeah. I like you, and I'm a fan of the outline or the blueprint, or, you know, how, however you do it. And I have just hit a point where I need to go back and redo that and that's hard. I would really much rather just chug along the path that I have set for myself. But sometimes you can't do that.

Kate McKean

That's writing too. It's like, the word count doesn't go up, and that's the metric we all want to use about our productivity. But then you have to stop for a week and do your stupid outline or whatever, and you're like, but I didn't get any work done, but you did, because then the next two weeks you can just write a billion words. And yeah, you know, you built a fire, so...

KJ Dell'Antonia

And yet, the process is hard and slow, and also hard and slow, and even when it's fast, it's still slow, and even when it feels easy, it'll be hard later. Yeah, and I liked that. That was that that's all in here, but not in a bad way, in a Hello, this is what you have signed up for.

Kate McKean

Yep.

KJ Dell'Antonia

In a “Welcome” kind of way.

Kate McKean

Yeah, it's you're in the club. Yeah? Everybody hating writing and not being able to stop.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, yeah.

Kate McKean

It's the thing we love to hate the most.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I don't hate it when it's going well, I don't, I don't hate it, but, man, it'd be nice if it were easier and faster and more like, I don't know, walk in the park, okay. But it's not. All right, well, so the book is Write Through this, I'm sorry, Write Through It, and it's wonderful, and I've said that about 56 times. So anything else that people should know about why they should go right out, I would recommend getting it in paper, because I think you're going to want to scribble on it, and I also think you're going to want to go back to it a lot. But you know, y'all do you. It's available in all the formats; apparently it was read out loud, too.

Kate McKean

Out loud by me.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah!

Kate McKean

I think that it's useful to have as in print. And I did write it thinking that you'd go back and forth and be like, Okay, well, today I'm writing my query letter, I’ve got to go to chapter three or whatever. And the other thing, the other reason I wrote this book, is that if you are a writer, and the people in your life know it, or if you're an editor or freelancer whatever, and they want to ask you questions about publishing, you can just give them the book like I literally wrote it as like a favor to my friends who are writers and editors, whose uncle corners them at the family reunion and says, ‘So I want to write a kid's book.’ And you're like, ‘Okay, I would like to go talk to my cousins, but here, I — here's the book for you.’ You know?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Kate McKean

It is the service I am providing through this book. And so if you want to avoid having people email you to say, can I pick your brain. Be like, oh goodness, I'm just so busy. But you know what? You should have Kate's book, and just send them a link.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I love this. I love this. For all of us, it is absolutely going to fill that need. So maybe you want to have three so you can go and hand one…

Kate McKean

I mean, I think good plan, it’s a great idea. Just buy a case, stick it in your house.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, maybe put it in the back of your car. You never know when you're going to need this.

Kate McKean

No, I think it's a it makes a great gift for all occasions, even if they're not writers.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Probably they'd like to be... everybody. Like, there's some statistic about how many people want to write a book. So, yeah, you could just do it.

Kate McKean

What the saying? That grads, dads, and there's another one...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Dads, grads, and...

Kate McKean

Something like...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Mom! Its Moms, Dads and Grads. I know that doesn't wrap run, but that's the Book Riot podcast that, um, that I will yeah and...

Kate McKean

Yeah, this is a big book buying season. Is like, Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduation. So you know what? I think everyone...

KJ Dell'Antonia

For your graduate and your mother and your father who want to write books, I love it, all right. Well, this was fantastic. You can obviously follow Kate on Instagram. We'll throw that in the show notes, but also have multiple links to her agent's, and books, email, slash Substack, depending on how you like to consume these things you should be getting it. Yeah, that's, that's, that's that. Now, the one thing we always like to end a podcast with is asking people what they've been reading and loving lately. So I hope that's not throwing you under the bus because you can't think of anything because you've been doing this, but I bet I am wrong. So it'd be lovely if it's something people can get either now or soon, because I can see you playing out...

Kate McKean

I just, I pulled… I just re-read my clients, Madeleine Roux’s [inaudible] hard novel called A Girl Walks into the Forest. It is out on the same day that mine go out.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh wow!

Kate McKean

I know it's very exciting. And Maddie Roux has written like 25 books. We have been together a long time, and this book is amazing, and it is dark and it is full of feminist rage, and it is has, like, a Baba Yaga character in it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Awesome.

Kate McKean

And it's just; it's kind of the book we need right now to, like, kind of burn stuff down. So I highly recommend pre ordering it. I loved reading it again all in one place, like I read your earlier draft, but now I can see it again, and, like, I just re- read it as I also wanted to, you know, keep up with my clients work, but I wanted to read it because it was good. Like, it's just good.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Great, amazing.

Kate McKean

I'm like, hugging the book right now.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You are. Yeah, no one will see, yeah I know I've been waving your book around this entire time, and no one sees any of it, but it increases our the enthusiasm level in our voice, or something. So that's fantastic. Well, I mentioned Welcome to Glorious Tuga, which is a saga about it's like a bunch of people. I don't even know how to sell it, other than it's kind of like all creatures great and small set on a tiny island where people can only get off and on for half of the year with, you know, lots of animals and lots of fam…, of people interaction and but also one protagonist who sort of brings you through. And I gosh, if I can't come up with, and I love this book, and I have, I'm having trouble coming up with a great way to sell it, but I hope somebody, I hope somebody does it, because it's super fun. So there was that, but I mentioned that in my last podcast. So I also want to add Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance by Alison Espach. That was her book before The Wedding People. It is vastly different. It is a single POV, first person narrative of a girl who loses her sister in a car accident at I think, the age of 13, and her ongoing and continual relationship with her sister's boyfriend who was driving at the time, which sounds really awful. But it's not sad. It's weirdly honest. It's a fantastic exploration of not just grief, but like people, and how we think and how we aren't who we think we are should be. But it is not The Wedding People. It's really different, which I found super interesting. So since y'all are writers listening to this, you might find it interesting, too. All right.

Kate McKean

Excellent. That sounds great.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Thank you so much for talking to me and everyone out there who is listening, buy Write through it. And also keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess Lahey

The Hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Gift of Failure: Author Version Jun 13, 2025

Karen Dukess’s first book, The Last Book Party, was wildly successful by any measure—sold at auction, Indie Next pick, Discover New Writers pick… you probably read it. The second…

Didn’t sell. Not as in, not very many people bought it but as in, no publisher published it. She spent the requisite couple years or so, her agent signed on but… no takers. She felt like she was the only person in the whole entire world that that happened to… until she started asking around. Turns out, you know how people say writing books is hard? And publishing is tough? They’re right!

Never fear, Karen lived to tell the tail. Her next novel (do we call it second or third?), Welcome to Murder Week, is wonderful and available in a bookstore near you (and as you’ll hear, I loved it and it’s the perfect page-turner but not-anxiety-producing read for a swimming pool, beach, airplane ride or couch). But the real joy is that Karen is willing to dish. You’ll hear:

What happens when you want to be a bullet journal sticker getting writer with your butt in the chair but you’re just … not.

How to have fun writing a book that maybe no one will want (and why you’d better).

How Karen found the right mindset to keep going.

Karen’s one rule as a beginning writer who couldn’t quite get the hang of 1000 words a day. Links from the Pod:LauraPalooza

Karen Dukess, The Last Book Party

Zibby Events

The Murder of Mr. Wickham by Claudia Gray

#AmReading

Karen: The Original, Nell Stevens

KJ: Welcome to Murder Week

Karen’s Substack Keep Calm and Carry On, a Substack from Karen Dukess or find her on Instagram @karendukess, or her website www.karendukess.com

Did you know Sarina’s latest thriller is out NOW?

Instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder—and the primary suspect.

New! Transcript below!

EPISODE 452 - TRANSCRIPTJess Lahey

Hey, it's Jess here. A few years ago, I got to go to Laura Palooza. Laura Palooza is the conference that is run by the Laura Ingalls Wilder Legacy and Research Association. I was invited because I wrote about Laura Ingalls Wilder and theLittle House on the Prairie books, and at the very beginning of The Gift of Failure, there's a mention in the opening chapter. And I was invited to go, and it was fantastic. And I got to meet Dean Butler, who had played Almanzo, which was quite a moment for me, because I had been quite in love. Anyway, this year's Laura Palooza 2025 is going to be taking place July 8 through 11th, 2025. Laura Palooza 2025’s theme is prairies, pioneers and pages. If you want more information on attending Laura Palooza 2025, you can go to L-I-W-L-R-A — L-I-W-L-R-A dot org slash laurapalooza. I will be putting it in the show notes for whatever episode this ends up on, and it's going to be really, really great. I'm jealous that I can't go again because it's not going to be near me. It's going to be in De Smet South, I hope that's how you pronounce it, South Dakota. But they're going to even have, like, a feature on the fashion at the time. They're going to have a section on planes, claims and all those land deals, a beginner's guide to mapping homestead claims. It's going to be cool, challenging gender norms. Laura Ingalls in fiction, and Rose Wilder Lane in reality. Folklore, fiction or forecasts, separating and linking science, storytelling and mythology in weather, lore, that's going to be by Dr. Barb Boustead, who has been on this very podcast. She's fantastic. Laura Palooza 2025... July, you should go, you should sign up. It's really fun. They're going to be doing a field trip also to the Ingalls Homestead, I believe. Check it out. It's pretty cool.

Multiple Speakers:

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is Hashtag AmWriting, the weekly podcast about writing all the things, short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction, in short or really actually, usually long. We are the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done. And I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of a bunch of novels, the most popular of which is The Chicken Sisters, and the most recent is Playing the Witch Card, and you should read them all. And I have with me today a guest that I'm really excited about for a topic that you all are going to love. So, with me today, I have Karen Dukess, and she is the author of The Last Book Party, which you might have read in 2019 because it was unmissable. It was everywhere. It was an Indie Next. It was a Discover New Writers pick, it was...it was all over the place. And that is partly what we're here to talk about today. And we're also here to talk about her new novel, Welcome to Murder Week, which I have just read and enjoyed, but mostly we're here to talk about the six years in between. So, welcome. I am so glad to have you here. So, Karen and I have met in person. We met at a Zibby book event and at an event for the amazing Annabel Monaghan, who also has a book out this summer. The lovely thing about the universe is that nobody reads just one book.

Karen Dukess

That is true. Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So, you can be like, yes, read Annabel's book, read my book. Read. I mean, anybody who reads? I mean, yeah, there are people who read just one book, it's probably not going to be ours. Oh, well, people seem to like the Bible. I don't know that's a popular one. See that? A lot around a lot of Crawdads, also see that. Okay, so anyway, tell us what the story of the long six-year journey between your very, very successful debut novel, and what is about to be your very different sophomore novel.

Karen Dukess

So, I feel like I have an upside-down writing career in that most people write a lot of novels that don't get published before they write a novel that gets published, and mine went backwards. So, The Last Book Party was my first novel, and I wrote it...Didn't... I wrote it, finished it when I was in my early 50’s, around 54 -55, spent about four years writing it, and I had done a lot of writing before, then stopping and starting and thinking that. I must not have what it takes, because this is too hard. I didn't realize that novel writing just is hard, and that is the way it is for all but a few unicorn people. So that novel, I was so happy when I finally finished it. I was so satisfied to just finally have written a novel, and I was truly thrilled, and I I felt like, if it doesn't get published, I'll publish it myself. I'm just so happy to have achieved this goal. And then it sold incredibly quickly. It was unbelievable. I mean, it was like beyond my wildest dreams. It went to auction. It sold very quickly for a good advance, and the publishing experience was great, including the fact that they were originally going to publish it in 2020, but they decided to bump it up to 2019 I don't know why. But I was like, sure, I've waited to my 50’s to get this book out, like the sooner the better. And then I dodged the bullet of waiting all these years to publish a novel and have it come out during the pandemic. So, the paperback came out in the pandemic, which wasn't great, but I still felt so grateful that I had gotten this book out before then. So, then I started working on my second novel, which later someone had given me some someone, a friend...it might have even been Annabel. Someone gave her the advice that your second novel, don't make it very, very personal. And I kind of wish I had gotten that advice, even though I'm not sure I would have listened to it. But the thing about a second novel, and I don't know if you experienced this, KJ, but if you have success with your first novel, the second novel is scary because you're like, was I a one hit wonder? You know, was it a fluke? Can I do this again? And people would say, well, you know how to write novels now. And I'd be like, no, I know how to write THAT novel. I have no idea how to write another novel. And the novel I wanted to write at that time was drawing on the many years I spent studying and living in Russia and working as a journalist in Russia. I was in Russia in the 90's, and I wrote a novel that was about an American woman's journey in Russia and some American journalists in Russia. But it was set in Russia in 2017 and with flashbacks to the 90's, and it was hard to write. It was not fun. I think I had, like, sitting on my shoulder this sort of like, oh, can she do it again? You know that kind of thing. And I knew that the luck I had the first one, like, you know, I knew it was unlike, unluck, unlikely to be like that again. Plus, I had this sense of like, this is my Russia novel. And even though it wasn't a novel like, directly about Russia, it still was my chance to sort of give my take on things there. So, I think I also had sitting on my shoulder, like all the journalists I know knew in Russia, and people that studied Russia and the real Russia experts, and what were they going to think of my take?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, yeah.

Karen Dukess

So it was, it was not writing, sort of like joyfully, it was a tough novel to write. And then it was also, it was fiction, but it was sort of personal, midlife kind of novel. So, there was just a lot of baggage with that novel. And the writing of it was tough, you know, it was just, it took longer than I thought it it just, I just remember a lot of sort of hair pulling, kind of, you know, those writing days. I had a lot of them. I finished it. My agent said he loved it. I don't think he loved it as much as the other two novels I've written, but, you know, he was ready to send it out on submission. But as I was finishing it, I was getting more and more concerned, because I finished it right around when Russia invaded Ukraine. And my novel, which was set in 2017 Russia, now things were so different, and they had been increasingly becoming different. Suddenly it felt very anachronistic, because I wasn't writing with these big current events in mind. Plus, there was this whole kind of like, oh, Russia, yuck, nobody, you know. And I felt that too. So, I was nervous about it, and my agent was like, just finish it. You've spent this much time on it. Let's finish it and see what happens. And so, we sent it out, and the response I got was kind of... Uh not great, you know, it went to my publisher first. They'd write a first refusal, and we're like, this novel. It about American woman in Russia right now, it's just not the right time. And, you know, there may have been other things about the novel as well, but it was kind of a, like, not a good sell. So, we sent it out to maybe five or six more editors, you know, I got lovely rejection letters, you know. Well, I really enjoyed it. This part was so interesting. But, yeah, I don't know, I don't know how to market this novel right now. And it was, you know, it was crushing, of course, but it also kind of echoed my feelings about the novel. The whole thing gave me a knot in my stomach, yeah, so my agent said, well, we haven't really exhausted the possibilities yet. We can send it out another round, or you can revise it, or you can set it aside. And I felt really sure at that point that I just wanted to, I didn't want to keep submitting it. I just felt like not the right time. And it was disappointing, but it was also kind of a relief, because if someone had decided to publish that novel, I think I would have been really nervous for the whole time before it came out.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I think the only thing worse than having your second novel not published is having it published to like, you know, universal hatred.

Karen Dukess

Yeah exactly.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Or just, or just to your own disappointment, you know?

Karen Dukess

Yeah. And then there's a long lead time between the time and novel gets accepted and the time it gets published. And to just feel like, nervous that whole time, I just...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Karen Dukess

So, I was relieved and disappointed. And I remember very well thinking like, oh, well, this is what people talk about. When they talk about, you have to be able to deal with rejection as a writer, because I hadn't dealt with it yet. I had been so lucky, and I really had this sense of like, all right, well, now I get to find out if I'm really a writer, like, can I deal with this and or can I not? And so, I was like, I'm going to write something else. But I was determined to write something very, very different. Like, I needed the whole experience to be different, yeah, and it ended up being kind of liberating, because I went on a trip with my sister to England. We went to the Peak District in England for a week. We rented a little cottage, and this was right before the novel went on submission, I think, or maybe right after, maybe it was on submission, I don't know. So, it was around the time when I wasn't feeling good about the novel, but I wasn't sure it was like a dead deal yet. And we had this absolutely fantastic week in the Peak District, where I was my first time traveling in the English countryside. I'd been to London, but I'd never been in the English countryside, and I felt like I was just stepping into the pages of all my favorite English novels, like Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre. And also, like I was stepping into scenes of every BritBox masterpiece, mystery thing, I had written, you know, think, oh my god, there's a vicar. And just really, I was in a... my sister, we have similar reading tastes, and we were just both in this mood, like everything was just kind of entertaining us, and we were laughing at ourselves for seeing England through all these fictional characters. So, when I came back, I think I came back, and that's when I kind of realized this Russian novel was dead or shortly thereafter. And I thought, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to write something about Americans going to England. I want to continue that mood. And I really felt like, if I'm going to do now that I knew you could spend years writing a novel and have it not get published, which I knew intellectually before, but I didn't, hadn't experienced it. I I just felt like, if I'm going to spend another couple years writing a novel like fun has to be the number one thing. It just has to be fun. I'm like, not going to be miserable again. I can't do something like the Russian novel again. I have to just entertain myself and make myself happy, and hopefully it will entertain other people and make them happy too. And that's how I landed on the idea of sending these writing about Americans that go to England to solve a fake murder mystery, which is what Welcome to Murder Week is about. And I just had such a good time writing it. And I wrote it quicker than I've ever written. I wrote it in a little over a year, and it was honestly delightful. Like, I couldn't believe it. Like, writing could actually be really fun.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Who knew? The result is also delightful. It just, it's, it's kind of like every warm and lovely book setting on to you you've ever read. It is it Is that I really enjoyed it, So...

Karen Dukess

I'm so glad.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I don't know what the Russian novel was like. That doesn't sound fun.

Karen Dukess

I mean it wasn't really heavy, because I'm not like a heavy writer... like it still had...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Karen Dukess

In it, and it had emotion, etc., but I'm not sad that it's not out.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Karen Dukess

Let's put it that way, yeah. So, yeah, this one was just fun. And I, you know, my initial idea was to send a group of Americans to England. Initially it was going to be a writing group. I like the idea of putting characters together who would not ordinarily know each other, but to have them together in a space and then a friend of mine said, Okay, so that's an idea. You're going to send some writers on a writing retreat to England, and what are they going to do there? Like, write? Like, that's not very interesting. And that's how I, kind of, you know, ended up moving to this thing where I could have them participate in this weeklong, solve a fake English village murder mystery. And I could have, you know, the villagers, some of them participating in this, and some eagerly participating, some cynical and send a bunch of Americans, you know, Britbox crazed Americans, to compete in this thing. And, yeah, that's, that's how it ended up. And it was fun.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I, yeah. I mean, it reads like you had fun. I, as someone who has... so Playing the Witch Cardhas like a big game sort of Halloween event at the center of it. That would be really hard to do in reality. This is kind of like that.

Karen Dukess

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Like, this is like the dream murder week, both from some of the point of view of someone who might want to put one on and from someone the point of view of someone who might want to go and do one. It's not, it's um, you know, it's not. Sometimes you read these and they're like, they're like, silly and hokey. It's like, very sincere, super fun murder week that anyone would wish that they could do that likes that kind of thing. Anyway, I yeah, I totally enjoyed it. All the characters were really fun. I could see that you must have had fun writing it.

Karen Dukess

I did. And I also, you know, people often say, like, write the novel you want to read. And I really did that with this because I wanted it to have so it has a fake mystery, but then it has a real mystery as well.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Karen Dukess

Like the main character, thirty-four-year-old Cath, little do you know, she goes on this trip because her estranged mother, before she died, booked them on it, and she's sort of reluctant to go, but can't get a refund. And then I sort of developed this whole story about she teams up with her house, shares a cottage with people to solve the fake mystery, but that she also solves the real mystery of why her mother wanted her to go, her late mother, and that was sort of like the writing the story you want to read. Because I like light and funny, but I also like something that has, like, some emotional heart to it, like I wanted to try to story that was fun, but that has something going on. And the more I wrote, the more Cath’s serious story became part of the story, I think, in the first deeply satisfying, yeah, and the first version, the first draft that my agent read, and I had never shared a draft before with him, and, you know, I think I was just hoping he would be like, it's almost perfect. And he was like, well, I think Cath is the hardest story. I think you need to develop that more. And then I went back and did and sort of... blended the two. So, the whole experience was just, yeah, of course. Now I'm like, can I have fun again?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yes, yes, you can. Nobody ever tells me my first draft is perfect, and I really hate that.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, I know. I think it's, I don't even know if I should have shared it with him, like, I just wanted him to say, like, it's amazing. And he was like, yeah, it could be really good.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, but you just want them to know that you're doing, yeah, I'm a I'm going to share the first draft of the thing I'm doing with my agent, and it might be a terrible idea, but I'm going to do it anyway, because I want her to know I'm doing a thing. And yeah, I'm excited. And yeah um...

Karen Dukess I also think that, like, you know, when I said that, it was liberating, in a way, to sort of have the experience that I had with the Russian novel. I think it was also maybe by the time, you know, getting to the third novel, or maybe it's getting to my age. I felt sort of like, I think I gave my permission, myself, permission to write a novel that, yeah, it has a serious story at the heart of it, but it's not like a deeply serious book, you know? And I think there's a tendency to think like, you know, I would look at the world around me sometimes, when I was drafting it, and feel like there's so many serious things to write about, and I'm writing this funny story, like, is that super fluffy? And, you know, it was like, this is what I wanted to write? That's okay, you know? I don't have to prove anything. Like, here is my serious tome. You know, I really just wanted to give people like, an emotional, amusing, heartwarming experience. And that is okay.

KJ Dell'Antonia

It is funny how locked we get into that, both as writers and as readers, this idea that if it's not serious or experimental or deep or dark, it's, I don't know, somehow not worthy. There was somebody was reading somebody's Substack the other day, and they were sort of deeply apologizing for the book they had recommended, which sounded really amazing. And I was like, why you, you know, you clearly enjoyed this, and it sounded great. And I don't. I mean, as a reader, I don't want to read things that are dark and deep and serious A. all the time...

Karen Dukess

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And B. sometimes not at all.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, I do like to read dark and serious, but I've learned that I don't like to write that like writing a novel is, it's always so much more time than you think. I mean, even this one was quicker than usual. It's a lot of time, like you're living it. And I was just like, I can't live in a dark place, like I can read a dark book in a couple days, you know? And...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Karen Dukess

Wipe my eyes and move on. But...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Karen Dukess

You know...

KJ Dell'Antonia

A light one.

Karen Dukess

You could assume... but you know. When I'm writing a novel, I'm going to bed thinking about their the characters, and I'm thinking about it when I'm exercising, and it's just like churning in there, and I just don't want to be in a dark place for two years.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, and most of the time people, I mean, I guess it just depends on, on who you are. But a heart, it's hardly ever dark all the time. I mean, even people that I have known that we're going through some really horrible things have found, you know, levity and joy and pleasure in in some parts of it. And I think we all hesitate to say, well, that's everyone. Or you got to, you know, we don't want to impose that on every, on anyone, because that's kind of also where we are is, is this delicate dance of not wanting to expect anybody else to be the way you think they're going to be. But I it just seems like people find levity, even in even the worst, even in the worst moments. And people want, um, solace, you know?

Karen Dukess

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia Something... something pleasant... something.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, I work with an editor, kind of a more like a writing coach, like she doesn't actually edit, but she sort of helps me figure out the story and stuff. And there was one point when she was reading a draft, and there's a scene in the book. I don't know if it's a minor thing, but when my main character Cath, who there's a little romance in it. And when she's first together with this guy, and they're sort of rolling around in bed, the first draft that, the first version of it, she accidentally hit her head on the headboard, and then she's like, “Oh my god, are you okay?” And she was like, “no”. My coach was like, no, no. I don't want to be anxious that maybe this guy is a little violent. Like, no, no, you've got to take that out. I don't want to be anxious in the reading of this book. And it was such a minor thing that I think she was like...

KJ Dell'Antonia

And you had him hit his head instead, right? Yeah.

Karen Dukess

Because I don't think anyone was going to worry that she's violent. But it was funny. It was like, she was very much like this book is, there are books where you want the reader to feel anxious, but she's like, this book is not that I don't want anxiety in this book you know?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, yeah.

Karen Dukess

Like she's still concerned about Cath and her story. You can feel sad about what she learns, but not anxiety.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You know I think you've really put your finger on something, because that is exactly right. This book is a page turner, like you want to find out what happens. You want to be with the characters you want to it's a hang and it's like, like, I read something recently where, um, in the middle, you, I found myself sort of, I was still reading it because it was a good hang, but in the middle I was just kind of, like, I forget why we're here. I forget what I'm wondering. You're not really wondering anything, but I like it, so I'll keep this. Your book was not like that at all. This is a fantastic hang but you're right. It never, it's not... that's exactly right. It's not, it's not anxiety producing. And I think that's its own vibe. Like you can have romances that are fun and they're good, but they actually, you do have anxiety around, you know, like, how the characters are going to pull themselves out of this, or how they're going to feel or, yeah, and you can have them or you don't. I like that as, like, a sort of a line in the sand.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, yeah. And then I kind of thought about it as I continued, like, yeah, okay, that's right. We're not going to go to like, the really unsettling places.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. I mean, even if you really want to know what would what will happen, and you really want, like, the things that happen to turn out in satisfying ways, but it doesn't feel like, if they turn out in some like, there were a variety of available options, none of which felt horrible.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, exactly.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Thank you for that. Thank you for a lovely reading experience. So, what else did you take away? Like, what else did you change between the drafting of the book that does not end up being published, which you know, for all we know, is actually great, but the timing was really bad. What should you change?

Karen Dukess

What changed for me... in writing?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, what are you changing? Did you change anything in your process?

Karen Dukess

Um, I think I, I don't know if it was completely because of the experience with this book, but definitely it fed into it. Um, I worked with the same writing coach on the Russia book, and she keeps saying that book will be published someday. I'm like, yeah, maybe, maybe not. I don't really care, honestly at this point, but one thing that she really pushed on me, which I discovered in the writing of murder week, was really true, is that to be open and playful and just really to be creative, I needed that. I needed to be in the right mindset, like, I know your thing is always butt in chair, butt in chair. And it is true, you have to, you know, you have to push yourself to finish a novel. It's not easy. And there are times when you just have to push forward. But for me, in the drafting of it, like the butt in chair thing, for me, is more important in the revising and the final draft, when it's like, you've got to get through it, and you've just got to keep sitting there and doing it. But when I'm in this sort of creating stage, when I'm not sure what the story is, when I'm in those moods where I'm just like, sit down and work at this like, I don't write good stuff. I just don't. And she would sometimes say to me, like, if I would talk to her, and I was really angsty and I was really self-critical, or I don't like what I've written, or I don't know where I'm going with this, or whatever , she was really she would very much say, like, when you're in that kind of mood, just walk away. Don't sit at your computer. Like, that is not the time for butt in chair. That is the time for just go do something else and like, lighten up on yourself. And that was really true for this. And I'm trying to remind myself that as I work on the next novel that you know for me, being kind to myself and feeling playful and open is when I'm going to write the best stuff and surprise myself. And that applies whether I'm writing like a serious scene or a funny scene. And the tricky thing about it is, you know, it's always a little scary to write, so it's like, Am I walking away because I need to lighten up my mind, or am I just plain procrastinating?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, or am I walking away because I just don't know how to...

Karen Dukess

So, I think that is something though, that I do feel like I write better from a free place than from a sort of, like, grim, determined place.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, that makes sense.

Karen Dukess

I think I was learning that and trying to learn that when I was writing the Russia novel, but it really came true with this one, which is why I think I was able to write it quicker, because it's actually, you know, the weaving together of the fake murder mystery and the real mystery and the arcs of all the different characters. Like, it wasn't simple putting all together, but yet it was simpler for me to write, because I was just looser about it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right. I think you learned to trust that you would finish this, even if you didn't finish it today.

Karen Dukess

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Does that make sense?

Karen Dukess

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I, yeah.

Karen Dukess

And I just think, like, trusting the process is so important, you know. And I talk about this with friends in my writing group, you know, sometimes when you're like, working so hard to figure it out, because it feels good to figure the novel out before you write it, because then you don't have the anxiety of, what if I don't figure it out? But it doesn't always work best that way. I don't think, like, I think there are times for that, and there are times to just, like, just keep going and like, let it go a little and let some interesting things happen, and then you'll figure out how to put it all together for me anyway. But obviously I'm not a plotter kind of person, so...

KJ Dell'Antonia

I think, yeah, I think that varies. But what's what I'm really hearing here is that, like, even you knew, okay, if I don't, maybe I don't sit down today. That doesn't mean I'm never sitting again, down again. And I think that is, that's part of what I struggle with in my like 1000 words a day. Just, just keep doing it time. And I, and I think I, too, have come around to the idea that I'm going to finish it like...

Karen Dukess

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I'm not. I'm not suddenly, you know, just because I only got to 700 words today, that doesn't mean tomorrow I'm going to be like, yeah, I'm not a writer anymore. Oops!

Karen Dukess Yeah, exactly. Well, I think, and I think I've learned that, like, I can't tell you how many times, I mean, I've listened to your podcast forever, and, like, years ago, I would listen to it, and I would be like, Yes, I'm going to do the stickers, or, Yes, I'm going to do 500 words a day, or, Yes, I'm going to text a friend or you know, none of that stuff. I could never sustain it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

It doesn't work for you.

Karen Dukess

I have no routine; I have no methods. But what I've learned now is like, but I get books done, so it's okay, like, yeah, I will sometimes go a couple days where I don't write, or I will, you know, think I'm on a routine of 500 or 1000 words a day for a while, and then I'm not, and that's okay, because it's just like, I know that I can still get them done in my crazy way.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That is what we have tried to start saying more often, is, listen, this doesn't work for everybody. If you're doing something different and you're getting the work done, then you're great, yeah, if you're doing something different and you're not finishing things, then maybe try this.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, well I remember, like, when I was working on The Last Book Party, right before I got kind of serious on it, I was in a writing group, and I was starting, then I was like, I was learning in the writing group through, finally being in a community with other writers. So, like everybody struggles. Published writers struggle. Really great writers struggle like and that, and I loved reading interviews with writers like I couldn't get enough of interviews and essays about writer’s struggles, because I had to, like, keep convincing myself that like, my struggles didn't mean I wasn't a writer. But then there was one point where I remember making a rule for myself. And I was like; I am not allowed to read about writing if I haven't written that day. You know, spend a lot of time...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yes.

Karen Dukess

Working on your novel, but what you're actually doing is like, reading about writing and reading interviews and listening to podcasts. So, it's like, I cannot listen to KJ's podcast until I've done some writing. So, I've had to, I have had to make some rules.

KJ Dell'Antonia Yeah, well, that's, I mean, that's how you turned yourself into somebody who gets the work done, and now into somebody who has her own like now you have a way people ask you, so what's your process? How did you get this done?

Karen Dukess

I don't think anyone has tried my process, but yeah. And it can be different for every book, I guess, you know?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Horrifyingly, I think that it can when you see pointed out, yeah, you that you knew how to write that book, that is so true, and that has been a huge thing for me, is to realize that even after writing a bunch of books, people still struggle, it's still hard, every book is hard. Every book has, I mean, we have a joke among the podcasts, you know, because you get to a point where you're like, okay, I hate this now, and we'll all be right, right-on target,

Karen Dukess

Exactly.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Baby's developing nicely. Here's our 18-month checklist. Aww and you're crawling, and you hate your book. Yay!

Karen Dukess

Yeah, yeah. I don't think the process gets easier, but I think knowing that you can get through it makes it a little easier. Maybe it diminishes the panic a little bit like, you know, you'll figure it out. You'll figure it out.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, this, I mean, this has been great. I'm sure it's going to be inspirational for everyone. It is inspirational for me, because I also... so I have a book that I worked on for the last year and a half, and I, we didn't, we didn't try to sell it because, because it's not very good.

Karen Dukess

Are you still working on it? Or...

KJ Dell'Antonia

It's leaving, it's living. I make these gestures as though, like, there's like, a blobby object over here that is my, but is my finished, but also not revised and not good uh...

Karen Dukess

I had this theory about books, like, it's the same theory I had with au pairs.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Okay.

Karen Dukess

We had a lot of au pairs when my kids were growing up and I was working out of the home, you know, not writing. And I felt like every time I selected, you know, they would come for a year. One or two of them stayed for two years. But every time I selected a new au pair, it was in reaction to the problems of the other... the previous au pair. So, like, when I had an au pair that was like a horrible driver, so much so that we had to, like, get rid of her. Then I was like, okay, where is it hardest to get a driver's license? Germany. Okay, I'm having a German au pair, you know. Then I had, like, a German au pair who was great, but it was like, she was too, I don't know, whatever if I had an au pair, that was like, two lax, then the next one was like, oh, this person has, like, you know, worked in a boys school. I want that.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right? yeah.

Karen Dukess

And I feel like, you know, I wrote Welcome to Murder Weekbecause I had had this tough experience with this Russia novel. Then it was like, I'm going to do something really fun. So, and I don't know that I would have written that if I hadn't needed so badly to have fun. I don't know that I would have said, no, yeah, forget doing something, you know, serious or with some geopolitical things in it. I'm going to write a, you know, a murder week story. I don't know that I would have written it if I could have gone on that vacation and just had a great time and come back and not felt the need.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Written something else.

Karen Dukess

So, you know, maybe the one that's not working is going to lead you to write the next fabulous thing.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, I hope I'm already well into... I'm well into something else, but, yeah, it's, you know, you spend a lot of time on something, not everything works. It's one of the reasons this is a terrible job, and you absolutely shouldn't do it unless you know, you can't do anything else,

Karen Dukess

Exactly.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Or unless you really want to.

Karen Dukess

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

There. That's that. That's really good advice. That's going to make a great bumper sticker. All right. So have you read anything good lately besides Welcome to Murder Week, which, in fact, is what I will be raving about in just a second.

Karen Dukess

Um, yes, I read a book called The Original by Nell Stevens. It out in June. She's a British writer, and it's really good. It's sort of an also kind of genre, blending the way my book is, but it's very different. It's like a gothic novel. It's set in an old house in England in the 1800's and it involves an orphan who's being raised by relatives, and she has an incredible talent for painting forgeries, and she sort of has this secret business in selling forgeries, but it also involves an imposter who returns from abroad in the family, and there's a queer romance in it, and it's totally unlike anything I've read, and very compelling.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oof, I love that.

Karen Dukess

In a really compelling way.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And by the time people hear that, that this, this will either be out, or like, buy your next week self a present. That sounds great.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, it was very... it's very good. It's kind of like a rainy day book. You know?

KJ Dell'Antonia

I love that. Well, I already raved about Welcome to Murder Week, but I'm telling you all, it's a real it's a real joy. I want to compare it to things. But there's almost like it's, I'll think of things that I that I want to...

Karen Dukess

It's hard to compare because it's not a traditional mystery,

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, no, um, I feel like Clare Pooley's books are, and I can't even think of the titles of them, but that, yeah, that is kind of ringing the right bell for me. I don't know who else a little bit of the like the murder, like, if you really thought The Murder of Mr. Wickham was super fun, which I absolutely adored, that is completely different, and yet also it's the same, like, it's the same... I think the vibe we're looking for here is page turner, no anxiety. And I love that. I love that for all of us...in England.

Karen Dukess Yes, yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So go grab this one. You're going to enjoy it, all right. Well, thanks so much. This was really fun. Thank you for being so open, and not just, you know, wandering around saying, well, I just it took me six years to write this because it's very good.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, I have to say, you know, I think that writers should talk more often about their failures. And by that...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Karen Dukess

I mean, like novels that they wrote and abandoned, or novels that they wrote and tried to get published and couldn't, because it was only until I wrote this Russian novel and didn't sell it, and I would mention it to people. Then all these writers I knew, and people I knew, you know, would suddenly tell me about their own published novels. And I was like, why did I know about this beforehand? There's no shame in it... you know? It's a tough business. It's a tough business. The writing is tough; the publishing is tough. And now I'm like, oh my god, like so many writers I know have novels that did not get published, and for whatever reason. And I'm sure many of those novels are great novels, and but knowing that you know the journey of being a writer, just like I don't know a single author who hasn't like lost their editor at some point, you know, their editor leaves. Then they find a new, you know, be assigned to a new editor. That happens everybody, and I realize how many people have novels that did not see the light of day, and it was comforting to know it. So, I think people should be more open about it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I think we just are afraid that, you know, a reader will hear, well, I don't know if she's capable of writing something... that doesn't work, maybe it's not very good, which readers aren't listening to anything. They can barely remember our names. They just know if the book sounded good and someone pressed it into their hands.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, had a great cover.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, had a great cover. Yeah, all, all of the things, and it's just, it's, it's just a little scary to admit, because I guess one of the scary things about it, of course, admitting that that has happened means it could happen again. And hey It could! Oh well.

Karen Dukess

Yeah, but I've survived it. So...

KJ Dell'Antonia

You've survived it, you would survive it again. And also, it didn't happen this time. Welcome to Murder Week is great, and everyone is going to be sitting with it by the pool looking very happy. This is my wish for you. All right?

Karen Dukess

Thank you. Thanks so much KJ.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, thank you. Hey, anywhere people should follow you? Oh, you have a Substack. What is it? I love it!

Karen Dukess

I have a Substack. I mean, I think on Substack you can find it by my name Karen Dukess, it's, I don't know... it's called, “Keep Calm and Carry On”, but I think you can just look me up by name on Substack, and I am on Instagram more often at Karen Dukess, as I post about books that I'm reading all the time. Obviously, there'll be a lot of quarter week stuff, but I try to, you know, I'm reading eclectically and all the time. So, I'm always posting about books. Those are probably the best places to find me. And I have my website with all my events on it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

It'll be linked. It'll be linked.

Karen Dukess

Great.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hopefully I can get to something... all right. Well, thank you so much. And all you listeners out there, I mean, you know you do you, but in some way, keep your butt in the chair, hey and or your head in the game.

Jess Lahey

The Hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

New Series: From Soup to Nuts Jun 06, 2025

Hi! Jess here. As an author and host of this podcast, I hear “I have a great idea for a book!” a lot, and while I believe everyone has a story to tell, I’ve only been knocked over by these book pitches twice. The first was the idea for the book Raising Empowered Athletes: A Youth Sports Parenting Guide for Raising Happy, Brave, and Resilient Kids by Kirsten Jones (pitched to me at speaking event in 2015, published in 2023) and the second was last week, in a conversation with this week’s guest, Dr. Megan.

I’m SO excited to introduce you to our new series, “From Soup to Nuts,” and its subject, Dr. Megan. She’s a therapist, speaker, and hopeful author who presented me with that aforementioned great idea for a book and a hook for a speaking career. She’s the right person to write this book, there’s a hole in the market for it, and it’s timely.

So….now what?

Over the next weeks and months, I will be mentoring Dr. Megan through her proposal, querying an agent, and planning ahead for a potential speaking career whether or not she sells the book.

This week, we talk through the preliminary process of getting to a book’s why and wherefores while crafting the introductory section of the book proposal (see resources below) and researching potential agents.

This first episode is for all subscribers, but the rest of this series will be available to supporters only. Please consider supporting the podcast so you can follow along (and learn from) Dr. Megan’s planning and writing process.

Resources we mention:

While I am not an Author Accelerator book coach, I do find Jennie Nash’s book, Blueprint for a Nonfiction Bookincredibly useful and asked Dr. Megan to read it. We will be referring to it from time to time throughout this series.

Introductory section of a book proposal. Since we will be referring to the proposal for The Addiction Inoculation as a reference, I thought it would be helpful to make that available to #AmWriting Podcast listeners. Click through to Jess’ website to download.

Jess’s episode: What is a “Comp”?

Dr. Megan’s assignment: write the introductory section of her book proposal, identify and research potential agents, and compile a list of agents she would like to query.

Geeky footnote: “From soup to nuts” means “from beginning to end” and refers back to the practice of serving soup at the very beginning of a formal Western meal and nuts at the end. As a former Latin teacher, I prefer the saying “ab uvo usque ad mala” or “from the egg to the apples” in the tradition of Roman meals, but regardless, this series will cover everything from the beginning to the end of Dr. Megan’s book process.Additional links from the Pod:

Jean Hanff Korelitz, The Plot & The Sequel

Vicki Hoefle, Duct Tape Parenting

Op Ed Project

Nadine Burke Harris, The Deepest Well

Ned Johnson, The Self-Driven Child

Daniel J. Siegel, Brainstorm

Anna Lembke, Dopamine Nation

ICYMI: Sarina’s latest thriller is out in the world!

Instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder—and the primary suspect.

New! Transcript below!

EPISODE 451 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Listeners who I know are also readers. Have I got a summer book for you, if you haven't yet ordered Dying to Meet You, Sarina Bowen's latest thriller with just enough romance you have to, so, let me lay this out for you. Rowan Gallagher is a devoted single mother and a talented architect with a high-profile commission restoring a historic mansion for the most powerful family in Maine, but inside, she's a mess. She knows stalking her ex's avatar all over Portland on her phone isn't the healthiest way to heal from their breakup, but she's out of ice cream and she's sick of rom coms. Watching his every move is both fascinating and infuriating. He's dining out while she's wallowing on the couch. The last straw comes when he parks in their favorite spot on the waterfront. In a weak moment, she leashes the dog and sets off to see who else is in his car. But instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder and the primary suspect. But Rowan isn't the only one keeping secrets as she digs for the truth. She discovers that the dead man was stalking her too, gathering intimate details about her job and her past, struggling to clear her name, Rowan finds herself spiraling into the shadowy plot that killed him. Will she be the next to die? You're going to love this. I've had a sneak preview, and I think we all know that The Five Year Lie was among the very best reads and listens of last summer, Dying to Meet You is available in every format and anywhere that you buy books and you could grab your copy, and you absolutely should right now.

Multiple Speakers:

Jess Lahey

Hey, this is Jess Lahey, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting podcast. Hashtag AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things, short things, long things, poetry, nonfiction, fiction, book proposals, queries. It's about the publishing industry. This is the podcast about getting the work done. I'm your host today, this week. My name is Jess Leahy. I am the author of The Gift of Failure, how the best parents learn to let go so their children can succeed, and The Addiction Inoculation, Raising Healthy Kids in a Culture of Dependence. I had a column at the New York Times for three years called the parent teacher conference, and I've written for The Atlantic and The Washington Post and numerous other outlets. Okay, today we are going to be talking with someone I am identifying for now as Dr. Megan. We're going to decide later on whether or not we get into her full name and all that stuff. But she is being super brave by coming on this podcast, because this podcast is going to be this episode of the podcast is going to be the first in a series. I met Dr Megan, I've been on the lookout for someone like her with a book idea like hers, with an aim towards, you know, an idea of wanting to be a speaker like her, and I just am really excited to mentor her through the process of hopefully getting an agent, hopefully getting a book deal and hopefully becoming a speaker, and we're just going to work our way through it. I also have been looking for someone like Dr. Megan, because I really wanted to pick someone for you so that we can mentor, someone who is dedicated to the process, interested in doing all the homework and is not going to, like, give up halfway through, and this is someone who's really dedicated to this series. I'm hoping you can learn as much as possible. As always, this podcast is about flattening the learning curve for other writers. So that's what Dr. Megan has offered to do with us... again, super brave, like the people who do the First Page's Booklab and submit their work. This is a really vulnerable position to be put in. And so, over the next hour, however many months this takes, we're going to be following her trajectory as an author slash speaker and see how it all goes. This first episode is going to be free for all subscribers to the Hashtag AmWriting podcast. And after that, we're going to be putting it under the umbrella of supporter podcasts. So, if you would like to follow along and learn from Megan's journey, go ahead and hit the support button and figure out a way to support the podcast, because we're you know, we're here because of you, and we're here and grateful for your support. So, with that, I'm going to introduce you to Dr. Megan, she is a therapist, she is a speaker, she is a wannabe author. She's someone who has a lot of experience in her field. She wants to write a book that is squarely in her field, related to her life, related to the life of her patients, her clients, and she is exactly the right person to write it. And it is a book that is needed right now. And so, with that, let's get started. As I promised. I have a hopeful, potential, exciting phase. new author here with me today. One of the reasons that I wanted to do this sort of it's not really book coaching, because that's not my domain. I'm not a Author Accelerator book coach. I also, but I get asked to do this a lot, and I get asked specifically about the speaking piece of it. So, I wanted to get our listeners started with how we met. I would love for you to explain how we met, and you don't have to get specific about places, but how we ended up in the same place together, because there's a reason I decided to work with you, and a reason that I thought that your potential book idea has a lot of a promise. And so anyway, could you tell our listeners how we met?

Dr. Megan

All right, this is a good question. Let's see. So, we met before you knew me. I met you via the Hashtag AmWriting podcast.

Jess Lahey

Okay.

Dr. Megan

And then when I was... I think it was just after finishing my doctorate, I found your book The Gift of Failure. So, then I met you there. But then, since I moved about almost three years ago now, and as part of my move, I thought, oh, I'm going to career shift. I've been working as a therapist for about 17 years with kids and families. And I love doing speaking, I love disseminating information. And I've been sort of marinating on this idea of a book... I don't know, probably five years and anyways, and I started emailing some people, and the majority of people actually don't answer said email. So I went to the librarian, and I was trying to get the scoop on those people at the library, and they're like, Oh yeah, yeah, Jess Lahey? She's super nice. She totally answered. Like, okay, I'm just going to cold turkey email her from the website, like she probably won't respond, but I just thought it was sort of a fate moment that you even we lived in this same small town, so it just all kind of perfectly collided.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, and I think your approach was really interesting, because you came at it from the perspective of someone who has done a lot of work to learn stuff in the first place, and you, when we got together, the book that you told me about, just hit all of the it, my alarm bells went off this, the like, oh my gosh, this needs to be a thing. And the last time this happened was when I met Kirsten Jones, who wroteRaising Empowered Athletes. So, I met her. She came to one of my book talks in California. Right after The Gift of Failure came out and she started, she met me by saying, you know, I want to write something like The Gift of Failure, but for parents of athletes, which I was like, oh my gosh, yes, you have to write that book. And when you told me about the book that you want to write, I immediately thought, this book has to happen. Now, here's the tough part. As anyone who is thinking about writing a book knows you can't just throw your idea out there, let alone the title, which you have. And the title, essentially was what sort of struck me in the first place, but we can't give away the title. We can't give away the main idea. So, listeners, I want you to think about when KJ and I originally talked about the book The Plot. There's a book by... it's a book called The Plot. And the essential idea behind this book, and there has now been a follow up called The Sequel, both of them really brilliant. The idea behindThe Plot was, student comes to a teacher with a plot that is so good it can't fail. And the idea is that, like, well, it doesn't matter. No matter what I do, this is going to just be a thing and it leads to murder, but I do promise not to murder you in order to take your book idea and publish it for myself in that book, though the author correlates is her last name, manages to not talk about the plot while talking about the plot, which is the unfortunate place we're in where we have to talk about this really good idea that I think is there's a hole in the market, which we'll get to later. We're going to talk about market analysis later, it's as someone who's been in this speaking in this area and writing this area for a while, there is a place for this book, and this book really needs to happen. And I think, but what I think is fairly irrelevant here, because this has to be about what you think. I think you are the perfect person to write this book. So, with that I decided this would be a great way to teach to do, almost like a mentoring series for listeners who would really like to just not just write a book, but also build a speaking career around that book, which you very much want to do. So, we're going to do today a sort of get to know you, get to know what you've done, and why I thought you were sort of prepared to start this process. Because KJ and Sarina and Jennie were like, but is this person ready? Like, are they going to do the things? Are they ready? Is this going to be like a one off, and then she'll disappear into the night? Has she done the work? Is she prepared? So could you talk a little bit about some of the work you've done, like, you know, you talk about the fact that you have done the professional work, and that this book is going to be very much tied to your professional work, but in terms of writing, which is a very different thing, and then speaking, which is, on top of that, a very different thing, sort of why do you think that it's the right time for you to write this book?

Dr. Megan

Well, I feel like all of the pieces have sort of fallen a little bit into place lately, because I thought the right time to write this book was actually two and a half years ago.

Jess Lahey

Oh, that's always the right time with any book which is always the case. But I will tell you, from experience that I think that when you're doing the searching and when you're doing the research and when you're doing the pondering, the book happens at the right time. I happen to think that which is another way of saying you can procrastinate. But it's not that. It's, you know, it's the processing part.

Dr. Megan

Yeah, and I feel like the process keeps aligning for me with this book, because I had this idea and I thought, Oh, I'll move and here I will sit in my new home writing a book, because now I don't have a bunch of clients, and I'm not as busy once everything is perfect, once everything is right, exactly, yes. So, so it turns out that's not a thing.

Jess Lahey

Right.

Dr. Megan

And so, I was really sort of dragging my feet. And so, I, as part of my licensing requirements as a therapist, I had to take some classes. So, one of the classes I took was “Writing a book for therapist”. And so, I did that, and I thought, Oh, that's really interesting. So, then I reached out to the person who taught the class, and they said, what else do you do?

Jess Lahey

Right. Now was that a full on, full length, like...?

Dr. Megan

That class was just kind of a short, like, two hour continuing education.

Jess Lahey

But you had to do writing prompts. You had to do the work; you had to do the writing...

Dr. Megan

Yeah, I had some low... yeah, like, low level prompts, okay, just like, sort of marinate, get your idea going, kind of prompts. And so, I thought, oh, that was really helpful. It made me realize that the missing element for me as a creative is, I need structure.

Jess Lahey

Right.

Dr. Megan

And so, we, when we met, I was like, oh, homework, bring it on. Because I actually, I love homework, because I think it gives you some structure around the creativity and gets things flowing. So anyway, so I reached out, and then she said, Oh, I have this class, and it is once a week for eight weeks, and every week you turned in different things, and it sort of ranged an arc from solidifying your idea writing your introduction, but also like making a faux book cover, or making a faux blurbs, or thinking about, how do you use something like Amazon to look at what categories might your work be in which I think is a beautiful gateway over to the Blueprint Book.

Jess Lahey

Right. So, I gave you a copy of Jennie Nash's Blueprint for a Nonfiction Book. All of the books are great, but I think, and I'm, again, not a Author Accelerator book coach, but I thought it was really good starting place for the process of thinking about the like, why me? What is my book? What is my purpose? Who is my audience? You know, who's my ideal reader, all that kind of stuff. So, having looked at blueprint for a nonfiction book, what parts for you have sort of resonated either because they were overlooked in other classes or other preparation that you've done, or you think actually will hit at what you need to work on for this??

Dr. Megan

I like it because, I think it's really useful in the learning process to keep asking same questions in different ways. So, every time it kind of elicits a new response, a new thing to think about, a new way to connect it. And so, you know, I originally had this book idea, and I wrote down, I think several years ago, 10 chapters...

Jess Lahey

Right.

Dr. Megan

And then through the class, I was like, oh, wait, no, no, there's a narrative quality. It needs to be in parts.

Jess Lahey

Right.

Dr. Megan

How does the parts become within one thing? And so, but then in doing this book and looking at it, I feel like the most valuable piece was also the why. Like, why me? Like, really? Because I think to be an author feels vulnerable. To be a therapist is sort of vulnerable, but not really, because you're not, actually, you're encouraged not to share as much about yourself. And so...

Jess Lahey

Oh! That's interesting I hadn't thought that.

Dr. Megan

You know...

Jess Lahey

But that's a really important part of this process.

Dr. Megan

Yeah, and it got me really looking at and comparing, do I really love this thing? Okay, if you thought of your book with other writers in the same category as sort of a conversation, not like as competition, but as collaboration, like, where do you sit with that?

Jess Lahey

Right.

Dr. Megan

And to me, that kind of prompt is very helpful because then I, even, you know, as an artsy person, was like, Oh, how do I, like, imagine yourself, like, if you sat at your Knights of the Round Table, who are your people? Like, who would you want there? How would that go?

Jess Lahey

And that gets at when you're thinking about, obviously, we're going to have to talk about, you know, market analysis and comp titles and things like that. That also helps you realize, because you're going to have to write this section, which is like, what's out there, and why is my book going to be different or and also thinking, and I've talked about this before in other episodes, in another episode, and I'll link in the show notes to that one, not just the books that have been successful in this area, and how your book will be different from those. But also, you have to think about like, which books didn't work, and you have to explain why your book is not that.

Dr. Megan

Yes, yeah, without yeah, without being like a show and fraud, right kind of person. But also Yeah, because there's a million people that I think are super brilliant that have written parenting books, but either they sound like too therapist-y or like, are there a little, like light on the actually, how does this work kind of thing, and also accepting you can't be all things to all people.

Jess Lahey

Right, right.

Dr. Megan

So, the part about who's your audience, I thought, but, but I think the really golden nugget in that first part too, is the why, and so I even did that writing exercise, like, why this book? Why me? Why now? Kind of questioning. And I thought that was really helpful, because I wrote that more in, like a talking way, because I think some of those same things filter into an introduction for a book, but by writing it in an unpolished way, I feel like I reignited sort of the passion for the subject.

Jess Lahey

Right. Oh, that's so good.

Dr. Megan

So, I feel like it's missing...

Jess Lahey

And a lot of that's going to happen during the book proposal process as well. I mean, when you first were full disclosure, we're recording this at my house, because it's just easier to have two people in one space, and we're in my office, and I showed you all of the bookshelves that are filled with the books for the book for the book proposals that I've written and decided that I don't want to write right now, because I think that's really, really helpful. And as onerous as the book proposal process is, it's incredibly revealing. It helps you see what's working, what's not working, what you want to write, and what you don't want to write. So, I'm really excited for you to get really immersed in that process. Okay, so your why coming into this like, given that you're going to have to have a bit of an elevator pitch for people, what is your WHY for this book?

Dr. Megan

I thought about this in different ways. Okay I was a sort of neurodiverse kid—dyslexic, ADD—and therapy was super helpful to me as a child. And as a, you know, what Elaine Aron might call a highly sensitive person, I just think there's all these... I was so lucky, because I had a school for dyslexia, and I had all these opportunities in my childhood and as a therapist, I found myself working a lot with these kids that you might be like oh, ADHD learning like that's not normal but it's actually very normal. And within that there's just such a wide way people can be. And I just sometimes think as a culture a society we get so binary, and I just feel like that gets people really locked into either "oh no big deal" or "ooh super problematic thinking". And my big why is, there are easy solutions to helping understand your child. So, my really, my, why is I feel like there's, there's answers out there, and it drives me bananas, if you're like, oh, I don't know what to do, or there's just nothing. So, I feel compelled to do that.

Jess Lahey

So the nice thing about that answer is and I tend to bring... because it's my experience the so when I was thinking about The Gift of Failure, the big why was because I want kids to be able to learn to the best their ability to be engaged, to be motivated, all those sorts of things, but also that they're having conversations with their parents about what really matters to them and all that sort of stuff. So for me, there was no one writing at that intersection of parenting and education in this particular way, and because you have cred, not just as someone who grew up neurodiverse and as someone who works with neurodiverse kids, you have that sort of both sides of the table thing going on, which I think is a really, really, not just a great why, but a really great answer to why me.

Dr. Megan

Yes.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, yeah, to the why me question we're going to be talking about in future episodes, and about owning your expertise. So, I want to give you some homework.

Dr. Megan

Okay.

Jess Lahey

To think about, things and, oh, and I have a I even brought, I have a little notebook for you I get, I got you a little notebook. So, okay, so when it comes to your why, it sounds like you have a sort of a really good hold... a handle on that, but you're going to be asked definitely, during blueprint for a nonfiction book, and during our conversation to be re-articulating that lots and lots of times, people are going to be asking you about what you're working on, and that can be a really, really great opportunity. It's sort of like when, when you have to do interviews about your book, you're not going to want to go like, let's assume all of this goes well, and you're going to get to start doing interviews about your book. You need for now to be the time that you're articulating those really good answers, like, who is this book for? Why? I mean, the question I get in every interview is, give me a bit of your background and why you decided to write these books. And you want that answer to be great. You want that answer to be concise. You want that answer to not be rambling. And that's sort of your, you know, your elevator pitch sort of thing. The other thing that we talk a lot about, KJ and I, have talked about this a lot, is I like to have a stack of books that are the “voice I'm aiming for. So, I've had, there was a book calledDuct Tape Parenting when I first wrote The Gift of Failure, and she just was really brave. The author of that book was, like, really not concerned with people yelling at her and saying, you're wrong, and she would just have this brave voice. And that was my brave voice book. And then I had another book that was like my owning your expert voice book, and so that they gave me a sense of on the days when I really needed them and I needed... because one of the hardest things for first time authors to do is to own their expertise. This is also something that comes up a lot in The OpEd Project, a group that I have worked with and mentored with for a while, where they help people who wouldn't normally get the chance to write op eds, to write op eds. And Katie Orenstein, the founder of that, said, a big part of that is helping you own your expertise. Like, yeah, why do I deserve to be the person talking about this? And I think, especially, as you said before a therapist and not having the opportunity to sort of talk about you, that's going to be incredibly important. So having a book for that, and sometimes we refer to them as, like our dissection books. So, here's the thing, you want, a great book that helps with the, no, I have the right to say these things, and I'm correct. And then the owning is sort of, and it could be the same thing owning your expertise book. And then you need to find a book whose format is really great for this topic. So, like, and it doesn't have to be exactly modeled. Your book doesn't have to be exactly modeled on that. But find a book that you feel like, really, if you want to integrate narrative arc, if you want to have it be straight up research, if you want this research and the narrative arc to come together, if you want to do storytelling, find the book that you think is like, yeah, this is what I'm aiming for in my book. Find one of those books, because being able to dissect how that person does that. Sarina does it sometimes, like when she switched over to thrillers from romance, she needed to be able to say, okay, well, how long are how many pages are we spending on exposition? How many pages are we spending on research? And for me, I found a couple of books that I thought just did a really good job of organizing in the way I wanted to organize it. So having a stack of those books as well is going to be really important.

Dr. Megan

To my book stack...

Jess Lahey

Okay, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Megan

In my kitchen. Okay, good, because that's...I have three kids, and by about 9:30 most people are asleep, and no one can, you know, trouble me for a glass of water, et cetera,

Jess Lahey

Right.

Dr. Megan

So, I have, like, a big stack, and that is what I think has been really interesting. When I first got here and thought, oh, I want to write, and I was just really feeling blocked and unclear. My other passion is painting. And so, I got really into painting and studying art. And how did people craft things, you know, like, studied with other artists, looked at things, and I realized in this writing process how similar it is to the painting process. And in a painting, often I'll do an under painting of a color that might be radically different from the rest of the painting, but I feel like it sets the tone. And what I felt like was really useful in working on the writing has been like, oh, permission to be creative about it and to look at other things. So, I literally very neurotic...I counted like, number of words per page, and then would like, multiply them, and then I made a list, like, in a chart, like, how many pages are each of these books in this category?

Jess Lahey

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Megan

Just to kind of get the structure in, very much a similar process in artists, where you're like, oh, how does this person use light in a painting?

Jess Lahey

Right.

Dr. Megan

And I think that's where I feel like, by putting creativity, like, using those same dynamics has been really empowering, because it's that same sort of thing for me, just finding, yeah, so the more, the more I do that, the better it becomes, because it invites a whole new structure you might not have thought of, or...

Jess Lahey

Okay, whatever. So, and we'll talk about this eventually, but at a certain point, all of the charts and the graphs and stuff are going to have to give way to this, like really big, creative and word output. So, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Right now, we're in the planning stage, and then the last thing I need you to think about is, and I don't think it's too early to start thinking about this, is, you know, how is this going to translate into speaking, and how we're going to do an entire podcast just on the planning? You know, obviously, you don't even have a book yet. You don't even have an agent yet, any... all of this stuff.

Dr. Megan

Yeah.

Jess Lahey

But, but... and we're going to talk about all this stuff, but in order to really be able to pitch yourself as a speaker, because I think there's even the possibility the speaker thing could happen without the book thing. It's going to happen most effectively, obviously, with the book thing. But it's since that's what you really want, we're going to start planning for that speaking career while the book is also happening. Right?

Dr. Megan

I'm in.

Jess Lahey

Okay, all right, so you've already done what I was going to give you homework about. So, I think, I think what you need to start thinking about is...I have given Megan a copy of The Addiction Inoculationbook proposal, right?

Dr. Megan

Uh-huh.

Jess Lahey

Okay, so the reason it's not that I think that my book proposal is all that, but my agent...

Dr. Megan

But it is.

Jess Lahey

Laurie Abkemeier, just is amazing, and she helped shape that. So, I think it's a really good starting place. And I think the first section, the introductory section, I think would be a really great place for you to start. Unless you have anything, you think would be another great place for you to start. I want to take your input into this as well.

Dr. Megan

No, that seems good. Yeah. Because in this class I did, we had to write the intro and the first thing, but then when I read what you had, I was like, whoa, there's so much more.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Dr. Megan

There's so much more.

Jess Lahey

And all of the things we've talked about go into that introductory section, like, why me? Why this? Why now? And I think the why now when it comes to your plot, and I'm sorry again, listeners that we have to be a bit vague, but I think why now, with your title and your subject matter, I think it's a really great time for this book as well and it and without linking it into, you know, popular culture references and stuff like that, I think it's really important to help basically, I like to think of this section as the section that the editor, potential editor will have to go to the group at her publishing house to pitch to say, can I buy this book... and for how much... that section really is, here's why this author is the right time, why it's the right time, why this is the right author, why there's a there, this book needs to be written, what the hole is in the market. And I think that's going to be a really important part of that for you.

Dr. Megan

Yeah, and that's where it felt like, oh, now this doctoral thing that I did 10 years ago is coming into play, because they'd always be like, what are your gaps in the literature? And you have to get really granular about it. And so...

Jess Lahey

Oh, over and over again, I've been like, oh, wait, I can go back to that other thing I wrote in order to pull some of the pieces from that. So, this is very helpful. Okay, so for just the two of us, that's going to be the first thing I would love to see from you is that introductory section, sure, and then we're going... this podcast is going to be from here on out. This introductory level is going to be for everyone from here on out. This is going to be for supporters. But if you want to follow along on the journey, we're going to remain vague, like I said about the topic, simply because we don't want anyone to take it. And we are going to keep things a little bit vague on some fronts, but for the most part, we're going to get really specific, like I'm going to we're going to be talking about querying agents. We're going to be talking about the what the query format is like and finding an agent. I mean, that's the first place we have to start for you, and I have some ideas, but I'm going to give you some homework around that as well, which is, and I think you may have heard this before on our podcast, because we've talked about it, but look at the books that you really, really admire in your genre, and then look at the acknowledgement section, because people thank their agents, right? So, for example, if I am looking at a stack of books, I recommend a lot. So, for example, I really love, you know, like Nadine Burke Harris’s The Deepest Well, and Ned Johnson's The Self-Driven Child, and uh, Dan Siegel's Brainstorm, and Anna Lembke’s Dopamine Nation, those books sort of hit the tone and the topic that I would be writing about. So, who are their agents? Because those agents are clearly open to topics that are similar. Now, you don't want to go for someone who's written, who's published, or, you know, sold, the exact same thing, but you want someone who's hitting the spirit of the and is someone that is reputable and that you're also going to find by looking at who authors you respect thank in their acknowledgements. So that's a good starting place. So that's your other assignment.

Dr. Megan

Okay.

Jess Lahey

You can go to the library and do that. You can go clearly you have stacks of books at your house. You can borrow any of my books you would like. But let's start looking for potential agents to pitch this idea to, because a query is like, almost like a mini it's like a super mini version of your idea, and if they like it, they're going to ask for more. So, we need to have that more ready for when you query. Nonfiction is a little different from fiction, and for those of you have been listening for a long time, you know that if you're going to query a fiction agent, that agent is going to ask for a full manuscript, which so you better have finished it if you're going to pitch a fiction agent. It's not always the case, but mostly the case. But with nonfiction, the idea is you sell the book with a proposal. So, an agent in this arena is going to be expecting that maybe you have chapter summaries, maybe you have a sample chapter. So those are going to be our early goals for this sort of thing. But I think baseline introductory section is going to be the best place to start, and getting an idea of potential agents is the other great place to start. So how does that sound for you?

Dr. Megan

Super exciting, slightly intimidating.

Jess Lahey

Okay.

Dr. Megan

Because what if...I'm like, oh no, what if they love it, and now I've got to, like, crank out this whole book. Like, oh my gosh!

Jess Lahey

Yeah. Oh, it's scary. Like, The Gift of Failure stuff happened really fast. I got my dream agent who had been chasing, I don't know if you know this story, but I chased her for 10 years. I knew she was the right agent for me, but I kept sending her projects that weren't quite right, and The Gift of Failure happened to be right, but everything happened really fast after that. So, I've done like a crash proposal and agent acquisition, but I've also done, you know, the slower version, The Addiction Inoculationversion. So, I totally get that each piece of this can be really scary, especially when it needs to happen fast and there isn't any urgency. It's not like you know, but we're also going to talk about articles that you could start writing for the media that will start being test balloons for this idea, because it helps if you have an article that does well on the topic that you're addressing.

Dr. Megan Yes, and that would be maybe a whole umbrella conversation, but, yeah, I actually was wondering about that, because...

Jess Lahey

And that could be a whole episode.

Dr. Megan

Of all these links to the amazing articles. And I'm like, oh no, you haven't done any of that, like, you know, sort of, but not really.

Jess Lahey

We'll do a whole episode on that, and especially on how to pitch those, how to think about those. And yeah, we'll be doing a whole entire episode on pitching articles that are in line with what you would like to write for next book. There are lots and lots of authors who do send up these test balloons to see what sticks. I know lots of them that do that, and there's a balance to me made between including content for the potential book and still sending up that test balloon. So, we'll talk about all of that in a separate episode, but for now, looking for potential agents writing that introductory thing, and then we're going to get together in like two weeks or so, and we'll start, and we'll start talking about actual... we'll actually do stuff.

Dr. Megan

Amazing, yes!

Jess Lahey

Because this book needs to happen, I'm really excited about it. I know you're excited about it, and I'm really just honored to be a part of helping in any way.

Dr. Megan Mutual and likewise, and this is super exciting.

Jess Lahey

And the dogs have pretty much behaved themselves today, so hopefully they'll continue to behave themselves. All right, if you want to get the rest of this series, and I think, I think I'm going to call it something like, I have an idea now what? That kind of idea, but if you want to be a part and listen to the rest of this series, you're going to have to become a supporter of the podcast. Becoming a supporter of the podcast gets you other stuff too, like First Pages, the Booklab thing that we just recorded a bunch of episodes. I don't know if you've ever listened to Booklab, but we get submissions from very brave listeners who give us their first pages, and then we talk about whether or not we turn the page, and we critique them, and it's really fun. And then you get other bonus materials as well. So, think about becoming a supporter, and I'm really excited about this new series. So, thank you for being a guinea pig, because it takes a lot of bravery to do that.

Dr. Megan

Well. Thank you. I'm super excited and nervous and excited.

Jess Lahey

All right, until next week, and this is for you specifically, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. The Hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Should there be a body? Writing is Revising with Meg Mitchell Moore May 30, 2025

Meg Mitchell Moore is the author of Mansion Beach, a page-turner-y multi POV summer saga with everything you could ask for: a beach, a body, rich people behaving badly but also sometimes not behaving badly, parties, drama and just enough gender-swapped Gatsby to think hard about the meaning of the American Dream. I loved it (KJ here) and I also loved this conversation with Meg, who apparently thinks in multiple POVS and is always just as impatient as I am to feel like the book is done and wonderful when sadly it is… not.

#AmReading

Meg: Audio: Great Big Beautiful Life, Emily Henry—Julia Whelan

Also mentioned: Julia Whelan’s Thank You for Listening

Print: The Road to Dalton, Shannon Bowring

from The Book Shop of Beverly Farms

KJ: Mansion Beach

Welcome to Glorious Tuga, Francesca Segal

Find Meg at @megmitchellmoore on IG, or visit her website at www.megmitchellmoore.com

HEY. Did you know Sarina’s latest thriller is out NOW?

Instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder—and the primary suspect.

New! Transcripts below!

EPISODE 450 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

KJ here announcing a new series and a definite plus for paid supporters of Hashtag AmWriting. It's Writing the Book, a conversation between Jenny, who's just finished a blueprint for her next nonfiction book, and me because I've just finished the blueprint for what I hope will be my next novel. Jenny and I are both trying to quote-unquote "play big" with these next go-rounds, which is a meta effort for Jenny as that's exactly what her book is about, and we're basically coaching each other through, trading pages, thoughts and encouragement, as well as some sometimes hard-to-hear honesty about whether we're really going in the right direction. So come all in on team Hashtag AmWriting, and you'll get those Writing the Book episodes right in your pod player along with access to monthly AMAs, the book labs, first pages episodes, and come summer, we shall blueprint once again. So sign yourself up at amwritingpodcast.com.

All Speaking

Is it recording? Now it's recording. Yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. Alright. Let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay. Now one, two, three.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is Hashtag AmWriting, the weekly podcast about writing all the things. Short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction, memoir, other things I'm probably not thinking of. We are the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done. And I am KJ Dell'Antonia, the author of three novels, The Chicken Sisters, In Her Boots and Playing the Witch Card, as well as a nonfiction book, How to Be a Happier Parent, former editor of The New York Times Motherlode. You've heard all this. With me today, more importantly, is Meg Mitchell Moore, who has written a book that I think you're gonna find is your summer go to. It is called Mansion Beach, and I loved it. And we'll talk about it in a second. She is also the author of Summer Stage, Vacationland, can attest to both of those great reads. The Islanders, Two Truths and a Lie, The Admissions, loved that one too. They're all great. So, anyway, lots of lots of novels in the family saga, sometimes touch of romance, beach, summer, deep, but also page turnery read genre, which is not a genre because that was too long. But, anyway, Meg, thanks for coming to chat.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here. This is gonna be really fun.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So I've read some of your other books, obviously, and I felt like this one Mansion Beach was you sort of moving to a different this. It's a little how to describe it. You've got a lot of points of view, which you always, you often do, and a little bit of of a mystery, which actually, I've seen you do before, and then you've got a podcast going on so that you can have different people show show off what's happening. I guess I was hoping you would talk about the evolution of style, um, actually, over your whole career, sort of from, like, I'm writing a kind of a basic book with a couple of points of view and third person close, or maybe first person to these bigger, bigger stories with so much more to so much more to offer the reader. That's a really big question. Start wherever you want.

Meg Mitchell Moore

That's a great question. I I don't know if it has been such an evolution. I have always written multiple points of view to the point where it makes me crazy. And I wish I could. I wish I could do one or two. I really wish I could. I've tried it. I can't do it. I just can't. My brain doesn't work that way. It's I can't do it. So even my very first novel, which I published in 2011 it was called The Arrivals, that was a much smaller story. So yes, I for sure, I've evolved plot wise, but I remember, and this was when I was brand new and did not know what I was doing, and I was just trying to figure out how to write a novel. I had so many points of view. And I remember my now agent. Maybe she was not my agent then and was becoming my agent, or maybe she was already my agent, but I remember her saying, we have to take out at least like five of these points of view. And it's still, it still has a lot. I just that's how I think those are the kind of books I like to read, usually, not always, for one thing, but it just. Must be how I think I'm always in everybody's head, and it's really hard for me to restrain that. So this book, I don't think, has any more points of view than any other. Might have fewer than some. It does have a mystery.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah it might, then some that I've read, I guess I I, I saw it as different, maybe in part because of the the use of the podcast to frame things.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah that's new. And then it's a bigger, you know, it's a bigger idea. It's a, it's not a retelling of The Great Gatsby, because I don't like to use that word, but it is inspired by The Great Gatsby. So it has definitely some bigger I was looking at bigger themes, maybe from the start. A lot of times I back my way into the themes based on what my characters are doing. I don't always start with the themes, but this time i i was looking at some of those big whether, what's the American dream and what does success mean, and how does money equate with happiness, and some of those bigger questions. And I don't always do that. I might do it in reverse, but I don't always do that first. So I do think it has bigger theme wise, it's bigger maybe plot wise, yeah. And some of the elements, some of the elements that move it along, are a little different. I was working with a new editor for the first time for this. This is my first full book with my new editor. So I think that had something to do with it too, because I think she was probably pushing me for some of those elements that don't come naturally to me, which I think ended up being good for the book.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, it's a little more thriller. Isn't exactly the right word, but there's definitely a page turning mystery in there. I know here's, this is like a so there's a page turning mystery in Mansion Beach, and the question all along for the reader, like, you know somebody is going to die. But I at least did not know who, but I had an advance, and it came as a as a digital book, so I didn't have the cover and I didn't have the blurb on the back, if a reader has those things, are they gonna know?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Interesting.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Are they gonna know? Who it is that that dies?

Meg Mitchell Moore

I don't think so. I don't think so. The people I know who have read it both ways, I think have not known.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's good.

Meg Mitchell Moore

It's sort of that white lotus effect, you know, for White Lotus fans out there, where there is a mystery, and you care about the mystery, but you also it matters, but it doesn't matter as much as what's going on with everybody else. So I really like that as a framing device. I like watching it and reading it. And I tried it myself this time. I did it a little bit in two truths and a lie as well. I guess that's my only other one that has a dead body, and a lot of people are mad at me for who the person was who died, which I want. And two truths...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Don't give it up.

Meg Mitchell Moore

No, I won't. So that was interesting, so I hadn't tried it again, and this time I went in a little nervous, because people had been upset with me, particularly my husband. But I I still, I mean, I had the chance not to do what I did in two truths and a lie, and I still chose to. So I still, for me, it was the right thing, but it was an interesting experience. And I didn't try it again for a couple books. And this time I did also because I was playing with some of the Gatsby themes. I mean, Gatsby has three bodies, so I thought, I mean, I should have at least one, so I won't, yeah, I won't give anything away about…

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, don't.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Who or what or how, but I did enjoy having that as a device to propel it now that also, I don't think that was in the first draft. I don't think there was a body in the first draft. I mean, there were huge changes in this book, and I think that was one of them. I think we decided we needed the body after one draft.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Wow. Okay, now I'm deeply fascinated, and of course, I'm trying. So I'm trying to make this interesting and useful for those of you who haven't read the book, although you could also stop, go get the book, and read it, and then listen to this, and then it would be even better.

Meg Mitchell Moore

That is true.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. Okay, so let me just start by saying I am actually not a person who typically likes a book where your whole like, like, the question is, you know, either who died or who did it. So Lucy Foley, I've enjoyed some of those, but it's not necessarily my favorite go to genre, but the thing that made this book work great for me was exactly what you just said, that there's so much more to it. You I could see that this story would exist before you added that and that. I mean, that's so cool. And then I also, I'm not a Gatsby person, so neither of those would like, neither of those hooks is going to grab me. But what grabbed me, I think, was the different women, different versions of the American dream.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Mm-hmm.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Is that where you started?

Meg Mitchell Moore

I started… Yeah, I think so I would. Really, yes, I wanted to really look at notions of success, particularly for women today. You know, it's contemporary. It takes place that, you know, in the summer that is coming out, or that, if you actually match up the dates, and I think I messed up the tides and the moon in some places, but it's the summer. So yes, I was very interested in those questions. I was I wanted to have a love triangle, because I think that's interesting, and that's part of Gatsby too. So it's funny that you say you're not a Gatsby person. I think my first, another change from my first draft, was very Gatsby heavy. I think I tried to, I think it just was, I was trying too hard to to do the same thing. And…

KJ Dell'Antonia

It’s kind of a reverse-gendered Gatsby.

Meg Mitchell Moore

It is, yes, it's reverse gendered. But what I was doing was just, I was just trying to, I don't know what I was doing, but it was a mess. I mean, I always knew I wanted to play with Gatsby, but I tried to do it too closely. And I tried a little first person with the narrator, which that's how Gatsby is told, but I can't write him. Can't write successfully in first person. So that was a mess. And I remember that my editor probably looked at this thing and said, This is what are we doing? But what she said to me nicely was, you need to, like, don't worry so much about Gatsby at all, like you need to free yourself from those constraints, and you need to write the story. And that was the best advice, because that's when it started to come together. So it's more that Gatsby was a jumping off point, and some of those themes, I was so interested in how those themes are so relevant 100 years later, and they are, so I think I needed that as a jumping off point, but I didn't need to, you know, retell it scene by scene, or try to have the narrator feel the same, or do anything like that. And I had some missteps along the way before I figured that out.

KJ Dell'Antonia

It interests me that this doesn't seem to have taken any longer than your other books, did it?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Uh, I felt like it took forever. My books have come out either with note with, you know, a year and then the next summer, or with two summers in between. This one has, this one has an empty summer in between. So I did need that extra writing time for this. And I remember, I always start out thinking I could do this in a year. I'll absolutely and I always hit. I'm a deadline hitter. You know, I always hit the deadline

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, you give them something.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah, I was a journalist for a long time. I just, I'm not late on things. I just always, I'm just, I always hit my deadlines, but it might be awful. And so this was nobody actually. I mean, it was pretty awful when I think back to that first draft, and I think that my editor and Agent thought, okay, we can do this. And I looked at it, and I looked at my schedule and my life and my brain, and I thought, I don't think I can do it very well. So we put it off for a year, which gave me not a year's writing time, but maybe six months that I hadn't had. And that made a big difference. So this one took a little longer. Same thing with vacation land. I had the exact same thing happen where I thought it was going to come out one summer, it came out the next summer, but Summer Stage and then the book coming out, if I finish it next summer, will have no extra time in between. So it kind of, I've gone both ways with it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Do you see any like consistency in why? Or it just sort of either happens that way or it doesn't?

Meg Mitchell Moore

I think I when I try bigger, when I try bigger books, I need more time, as it should be, but I always think I can do it. You know, I'm patience is not, is not my best quality. Impatience is my worst quality. So I find that I'm usually impatient to get something done or to hit the deadline or to put the book out, and I have to slow myself down when necessary, and vacation land. It was a different editor, same publisher, but different editor. I remember her saying, having that talk with me and saying, it will be a much better book. If we put it out the following year, it will be so much better. And she was right. So we needed that time.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I so totally relate to this.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Do you?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm in the middle of it. Now, if anybody who's listening is also listening to our what the books are writing the books, what the books also like? It's a little mini series where one of my co-hosts is writing nonfiction and I'm writing fiction, and we're trading pages, and we're doing a weekly series of conversations. And this week's realization was, I have always known that I'm writing a story with multiple points of view, but I couldn't start it that way. I had. I had to start it with just this one protagonist. And then I thought, Oh, well, then it'll just be that, and it'll probably be really easy. Look, I've got this all planned out. I'm just gonna write. I'm just gonna, oh, I'll bet I can get, what if I got my agent a draft this summer? Hahaha, it's, you know, it's not good, but I'm so impatient. I want ...

Meg Mitchell Moore

Right, right. Well, I was listening to one of your to your podcast the other yesterday, and it was the one where you were talking about your story idea starting. How do you, how do you ideate the book?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, gosh.

Meg Mitchell Moore

And you so you write a book, and then you present it to your agent, and then you sell it, right? So…

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Meg Mitchell Moore

That's your process. So I'm the opposite, where I write, I get the contract first, and then I have to write the book. And I don't know which is harder, because you don't have a built in deadline. You have your own deadlines that you said, but you're writing something that you said. Maybe this will sell, maybe it won't, I don't know, whereas I know it will eventually be published, but I also have that pressure of I have to get things in on time. So what do you think is, what's better? What's worse?

KJ Dell'Antonia

I don't know. I envy your... I envy that way. I feel like that would make me feel more secure, more professional. My, my agent, doesn't… she's very against selling a book of mine, at least before I've written it, because she says, I'll, she says I might change it, and then, and then, it won't be what we sold or I won't be happy. So so I don't know if she's I think she's just against it as a general rule, but I know lots of agents that that do it, and I know a lot of of writers that do it. Sometimes I look at this and I'm like, you know, I could do a proposal. Maybe we could sell it. I could get some money. That would be lovely, right? Yeah. But...

Meg Mitchell Moore

I see, I see your point, and I know a lot of people think that way. I remember a long time ago when I'd either published, I think I'd published no novels. Maybe my book was about to be published, my first novel, and I heard Ann Patchett speak at a conference, and she said, she said that she would never take money for a book she hadn't written.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Wow.

Meg Mitchell Moore

And I remember thinking, Oh, well, if that's what Ann Patchett says, I guess that's what like, that's how the world is. But I disagree, like I disagree, because for me, first of all, she has a different life situation, but for me to keep income coming in steadily, because this is my only job, I feel like that's the way to do it. And I also feel like other industries, like my husband doesn't only get paid when he goes to the board meeting. He's getting paid every other week for his job that he does for the company that he works for. And so to try to approximate a little bit of a normal salary, I feel like that's the way to do it. But then I also see the other side, and I see why Ann Patchett wouldn't do it, because she's Ann Patchett, you know, so she can take whatever time she needs...

KJ Dell'Antonia

See that's so funny. Because I think, well, you can do this because you're Meg Mitchell Moore, and Meg Mitchell Moore is going to sell and a KJ Dell'Antonia, one of them will, and the others somewhat less, so at least that's my my record at the moment. So I guess we just all see each other differently. My co-host Sarina sells on proposal.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Okay, so fiction, that's fiction?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, yeah. She sold thrillers and romances that way. Okay, so she has a bigger track record. But also, I've known people, you know, I guess there's just different ways of of of doing it. And I would not say that I chose this. It chose me.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Interesting, but there was always that chance. I mean, my agent... If I said to my agent, I don't want to sell till I write, she would say, Great, that might be better for both of us. We'll probably sell it for more, because you might write something really good, but I just don't want to take that. I'm too impatient, you know, I'm just Yes, maybe, if, you know, maybe if I had, you know, had some big blockbuster, and then I thought, Okay, now for two years, it doesn't matter what's coming in, because I'm getting money from that book, that would be different. But, um, that's not how it works for most people.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, and maybe I would feel less impatient with getting this done if I weren't like, I want to get to the point where I know if we're going to sell like, I wrote a whole thing last summer, and it never got to the point that we felt like we could sell it, and I I'm sick of it. I can't write it anymore. I'm done with it. I mean, maybe I'll come back to it, but, yeah, right. And like, I've had, you know, a freelance editor at it who's really good. My agent's been at it. I finished it like three times, and apparently it still sucks. So I'm done.

Meg Mitchell Moore

So that's interesting, because I always think that I would not be writing good books if I didn't know if my editor gets a very messy draft, and all of my editors have gotten bad dress and really helped me. And without that step, I don't think I would ever write a book that could even be sold. So I feel like I need to know, okay, somebody else who is better at this is going to be helping me really soon. I just need to get through it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's that would be amazing. I don't think my editor cares enough about me to do that. So...

Meg Mitchell Moore

Oh, my editor would absolutely prefer a cleaner draft. Like, no question. I mean, she would be delighted if I showed it to five people and got feedback, but I'm always in a rush. So I'm like, here you're the first reader. Here you go. She's like, thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, that's my agent. I'll be like, Look, I'm done it's great! and She's no... it is great, but you know what would be really great? Poor agent. Yeah, okay. So, so we're we're both impatient, but we're doing this in in very different ways. Well, now I want to hear more about that. How do you go from a first draft with no body, to a final draft where the body, it's definitely one of the things that's pushing people to turn the page. It's not the only thing. So maybe that's the good news of not having started with a body. Also, did you know whose body it was?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Um, we discussed because, yeah, I mean, we discussed a little bit about it. I remember thinking, Could it be this person? And here's why we wouldn't want that person. Could it be this person? So we had some discussion. I didn't write it. I once I knew who it was. I didn't write multiple versions of it. I always had that person. But, and I guess I just think of it as more of a framing device than anything, and a framing device, you can add the frame later.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Meg Mitchell Moore

So the middle was mostly what was happening, was happening, and then there was this framing device and and then there are certain things at the end that kind of came together. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this makes it all come together. But I didn't know that in the beginning. And that was so you may be late.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Did you not know how the body became a body?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Ah, that changed. There was...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, I could see that.

Meg Mitchell Moore

And then I thought, oh my gosh, this is kind of what I needed to pull together all those themes. It was those exciting moments that really don't happen very often.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, I bet and I mean, I can see it from the outside as a reader. It really did. It made it like your ending is one of those endings that changes the whole, your whole reading experience for the better, right? Not that it wasn't a great reading experience the whole time. You know, sometimes somebody doesn't stick the landing, and then you're like, yeah, no, I don't really want to recommend this. I mean, it was fine, right? But, and sometimes it's just great. It's like, solid. You're happy, yay. Okay, that's a good, it's a good. Yours colors the entire like, if I were somebody who would go back and reread it, would color the entire experience differently.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Oh, Thank you!

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, which is cool, yeah, very cool.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Now, when I wrote Vacationland, I started with a body, and the body came out. So I had the opposite experience, where I thought I was writing a thriller. The whole time. I was like, this is going to be my thriller. There's a body. And I had it all. And to me, it made sense. It all tied up, and my different editor, but my then editor said, I like everything but the body.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Wow.

Meg Mitchell Moore

We had to keep it was first it was a an important body, and then it was a less important body, and then it became the body of a seal, because I had to have just a scene of children looking at something they found in the water in the very beginning. And so it was a body, and then it was a seals body. This time. I got to keep my body at least.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So I love this also, because you haven't been, um, pigeonholed into a genre that involves bodies or doesn't involve bodies. Has that been a thing as you've as you've gone from book to book where people are like, well, I don't know… Meg, people don't really want you to kill people or the, you know, the opposite. Well, I don't know, people are kind of looking for some more thrills from you.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Well, Vacationland. I remember that editor said they don't, we don't want this from you. We want, we don't want. We want a summer book. We don't want. We're not looking for a thriller. You know, they had other thrillers. You know what? They're doing their own end of the business, too. So they definitely said that this time. I mean, I feel like I'm not pigeonholed, but categorized as beach as a beach book. But I think within beach books you can do all of those things. Yeah. So if I were to write a giant thriller that I said, I think this should come out in the fall, and it's a big book, I that's when they would probably say, I don't know if your audience, if you have the audience, right, pull that off unless the book is amazing, you know? I do feel like I need to come out in the summer to keep my readers.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, I actually love that. That beach book is a You're right. It's a pretty big genre. It encompasses a lot. It encompasses a lot of of things, the only requirement being that it's, you know, entertaining, which, as far as I'm concerned, is a book requirement anyway. But...

Meg Mitchell Moore

Right, right. It is interesting because my books also happen to usually take place on beaches, but not all beach books do. So it is, it has become a very big category and competitive like you also want to stand out in that category, because there are so many books with the word summer in the title or the word beach in the title, or this. Actually, this cover is a departure for me, which I love, because I feel like I have done the just the oceanscape or the main or the woman looking at the water. I've had those kinds of covers.

KJ Dell'Antonia

It's your first... It's, it's, it's a cartoony cover. I don't, I don't mean that it, you know that sounds Yeah, it's almost a romancy cover. But there's only one person. First. I'm just so you guys should, it'll, it'll be in the show notes. You should, you should take a look, because you're right. It is a departure. I see, yeah, I see what you're saying there. But this one's, it's a hardback, right?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yes.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. Have all your books come out first in hardback?

Meg Mitchell Moore

They have, yep.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Nice, cool.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Have yours?

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, none.

Meg Mitchell Moore

None? Okay, now, what do you now…? Do you think that… that, I sometimes I feel like that's a great thing too.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I go back and forth on that. My agent is bummed about it. But for me, it's frankly, much easier to, like, go out to everyone and be like, spend $18 versus be like spend $38.

Meg Mitchell Moore

I agree.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So I haven't minded. Oh, and I was at the Newburyport Book Festival a few years ago, and they accidentally got my second book only in hard book, because it was, it came out in hardback and paperback at the same time, which there was a moment of about six months when publishers were doing that, and then they stopped and they only had the hardback. And I was like, Oh, I don't even want anyone to buy that. Like that, isn't I would be mad if I bought a hardback...

Meg Mitchell Moore

Right, right.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And then the next day, I was at the store and was like, hey!?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Right, yeah, it's interesting, because I do actually love… because I bought your book The Chicken Sisters this weekend, in paperback, and I love, I love paperback, yeah, I love it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

For travel…?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Lighter, yeah, and I think it is appealing. It's so interesting. I mean, I remember Emily Henry's first couple, at least, came out paperback, and then now that she can sell so well, they now they come in hardcover, but I still feel like...

KJ Dell'Antonia

I look at them and I'm like, I don't want that that way. Now, I'll just buy a digital version, because I don't that's not…

Meg Mitchell Moore

Right? Right. It's really interesting. And I know I don't understand the sales end of it, the way that the people who are doing the job do, and the profits and the margin and all that. But I kind of feel like, why isn't everything in paperback right away? You know?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, no, I feel the same way. And and also people's, especially now we're thinking, we're talking about beach books. Some people's beach I mean, if my beach vacation is an airplane beach vacation, I might bring one hardback, maybe...

Meg Mitchell Moore

Right.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And maybe, probably not, because I'm a fast reader, I could easily eat that on the plane, and then there I would be. So...

Meg Mitchell Moore

Right.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I don't know.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Right, yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I guess that's what e-readers are for.

Meg Mitchell Moore

That's true.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, I mean, gosh, I could probably talk to you about in depth, about the writing of this for about 12 hours. Because, okay, one one last thought. So listeners, Meg writes like we said, in multiple points of view. Talk to me about how you know when to change the point. You know what point of view a scene should be told from?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah, I don't. I'm it's so much. I do so much rewriting, a lot of that. I mean, I'm just thinking, I just turned in a draft yesterday of, hopefully next summer's novel, and I that is also multiple points of view. It's, I think it's mostly three, it's three adult sisters and they each have a point of view. There might be a couple little scattered things, but when I look back, I think I need to probably adjust, even in the draft I just turned in, I think I'm a little heavily weighted toward one over the other, so I don't always know. I just go on gut and instinct, and then I fix it later, which is how I do almost everything. I just go by instinct, and it's usually wrong And I change it later.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So, you'll, you'll be like, you've written a scene, and the point of view of one person, you realize, oh, either it's the other person's turn to have some more time, or I need their inner thoughts, not this person's inner thought...

Meg Mitchell Moore

Right. Yeah, its not very organized.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And sometimes you drop in like, you know, a kid on a beach or something, is that when you need something to happen that you that your protagonists don't know? Or just, you just feel like?

Meg Mitchell Moore

I think, I think it's fun. I just think it's fun sometimes to have this person you haven't heard from and you won't hear from again. But a lot I probably did. I probably do that. It probably gets taken out 80% of the time when I do that, because usually it doesn't make sense. But I just wanted to do it. I did it in my book. I just turned in and the first this scene between the a realtor and her husband, the realtor who's selling this house that these people are in. She doesn't matter to the book, but I just really wanted to write the scene of her and her husband, and I even wrote in the draft. I know this doesn't make sense, and my editor said, Yeah, this doesn't make sense. Like, you either need more of them, or they need to go. I don't know what they're...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Do you ever give them away for? Like, you know, here's your pre order bonus. Read this extra scene…

Meg Mitchell Moore

I should do that. Maybe I'll do that. They'll do that. I have never done that, but maybe I will. But I feel like, I think it might be Anne Tyler. I remember reading an interview. Is she the one who does the strings like she has strings with different?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Maybe, i don’t know.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Every character has a different colored string, and then she pulls down the red one because it's the red, you know, that's how she knows who she's writing. And I thought that was really cool, but I've never done it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That sounds like a lot of work.

Meg Mitchell Moore

I guess.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And, like, I would need a different…I need a bulletin board. Okay.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah, I don't know where you, where I would hang it from, but it's just seems kind of nice to think, then maybe...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah it does.

Meg Mitchell Moore

She knows if she's done the right amount for everybody.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, The Chicken Sisters is alternating points of view. And I just, I just alternated. And then sometimes that was a problem, and I had to figure out, like, how to get somebody's feelings? Yeah? So....

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah, it's confusing. I don't know why I do it to myself, because sometimes I'll just read a perfectly, a book that's just perfectly written in first person. I'm trying to think of an example right now, because I don't even always read that much in first person, but like, Yellowface? … Yellowface. Okay, that book was so, like, simple in a way, but I love I loved it. I thought it was brilliant, and it was all just this point of view, and...

KJ Dell'Antonia

And didn't you occasionally get, like a newspaper article? I think...

Meg Mitchell Moore

Maybe, maybe.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That must have been what she did when she had something her person couldn't know.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah. I guess, yeah. I guess, technically, it would be harder to do it all from one because you how do they know everything? But I feel like I get lost, like I have trouble. I literally lose the plot, because I'm just this person's off doing something in their day that might have nothing to do with what's going on. I get really caught up in that kind of stuff, and that's what I have to edit out.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, I'm always trying not to do that. I'll sit there while I'm writing, like, No, do not let them move their coffee cup. They can move the coffee cup in a later draft, if the coffee cup is still here, if they're even still in this coffee shop, if this coffee shop even exists. But I can't seem to stop it. My my like, default mode is, you know, he said while taking a sip and burning his lip or whatever, right? Just, I can't seem to not do it.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah, but sometimes that's where you get the gold too, because you wrote all that, and maybe that one sentence is the thing that you needed. So it's just the process.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, it is. It's just the process, and it's longer than we hope and slower than we hope...

Meg Mitchell Moore

Always...Always. Yes.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And more, and more revising. Well, do you have any, like, genius words about revision for people? Because it sounds like you do a lot of it.

Meg Mitchell Moore

I do a lot of it. I think just is so important. It's just so for me, it's so important. I just think nobody gets it right. I hope nobody gets it right the first time. Because if they do, I'm really jealous, but I think for the most part, nobody gets it right the first time. So revision is, I mean, I'd say I spent almost as much time on the revision I probably do as I do on the first draft.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Do you still lie to yourself in the first draft and let yourself pretend it's going to be right?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Oh yeah. I always think, Oh, this is the time I did it, I nailed it, and then I get my editorial letter, and it's like, great start. Here's the 700 things that you need to do now.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, thank you. I feel better. I hope everyone else does too.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah, it's a long process.

KJ Dell'Antonia

It really is, all right. Well, this was fantastic. I really enjoyed it.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah, me too.

KJ Dell'Antonia

As we hit the end of any episode, we always like to ask people what they've been reading. So I hope I'm not springing that on you.

Meg Mitchell Moore

No, I just I always have an audio book going and a regular book going on audio I just started the Emily Henry, the new Emily Henry, which I've never listened to her books. I've always read them, and I know that Julia, the famous Julia Whelan, is always her narrator, so and she's phenomenal. So I'm loving the audio version, which is just funny that I've never done it with Emily Henry before.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Did you listen to Julia Whelan's book that she wrote herself?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Mhmm.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That was so fascinating, because it really was different, like I actually read it, but I could feel the… yeah. Anyway, okay.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Oh, you should go back and also listen. It's so it's such a good audio book.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I bet.

Meg Mitchell Moore

Yeah, it was fantastic. And then I'm reading a novel called The Road to Daltonthat my friend Hannah, who owns the Book Shop of Beverly Farms in Beverly Farms, Massachusetts, phenomenal store recommended to me. So I bought it last time I was there, and it is about a bunch of people in a small town in Maine, which is my vibe immediately I was in. But it's very good. So I'm reading that. I can't, I can't remember the author, which is unusual for me, but Shannon something I think [Shannon Bowring].. But it's The Road to Dalton

KJ Dell'Antonia

That’s okay. I will find it well. As everyone is gathered, I just finished Mansion Beach. I I really loved it. It was a rare book that I loved even more when I got to the end of it. And, yeah, it was amazing. And also in that, that vibe, that sort of small town Maine and yet, but this is like small island, middle of the Atlantic. Welcome to Glorious Tuga. Have you heard of this one?

Meg Mitchell Moore

No. I’ve never heard of it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Okay, so it's a tiny island settled 300 years ago by a miscellanea of Dutch and British and and African people didn't have any locals. So that's kind of and they have formed the society. It's only open for half the year, because you can't, like, get a boat into it, because storms and currents and whatnot. So this woman has gone thinking that she's going to study the native tortoise population all Darwin, but she gets there and they're like, great. You're a vet. That's what we need. So it's kind of like all creatures great and small meets...I don't even know what it meets yet, I got to come up with that. But it's really a lot of fun. And it's very multi it's multi POV in a really interesting way, because you're with her, and then sort of whenever you kind of get a little interested in someone else, you're like, Oh, why are they doing that? Then maybe you'll switch to their POV. it's really, I really enjoyed it so, so that was fun. So those are my ranks, all right. Well, thank you so much, listeners for joining us, and thank you, Meg for joining me today. Where can people follow you? Where's the best?

Meg Mitchell Moore

Mostly on Instagram @Meg Mitchell Moore, I'm on Facebook, but I don't use it very often and I kinda want to leave it. So…I also just read the Facebook, the Facebook memoir.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh yeah?

Meg Mitchell Moore

No, I really want to leave Facebook, but also I know that they own Instagram. So anyway, Instagram is the best place to find me, and I was so happy to be here. Thank you. It was really fun.

KJ Dell'Antonia

This was super. Okay. Thanks everyone for listening, and until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Sarina Bowen

The hashtag am writing podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Sticking it to the Book Banners: A Glorious Tale of Victory May 23, 2025

Greetings writers! Sarina here.

Earlier in May I was surfing social media, as one does, when I came across a story about children’s author Erica Perl and an ill-fated school visit. Her scheduled visit to a school was abruptly canceled. After asking a few questions, it was determined that a single parent had objected to…

Well, it’s hard to say. We’ll let Erica tell her story. But you should know that Ms. Perl’s twenty years of book publishing have included such salacious titles as When Cookie Met Carrot and A Whale of a Tea Party. (🔥!)

When Erica’s visit was canceled, at first she had a lot of conflicting emotions. We’ll dig in to the vulnerability hangover that comes with writing as a career. But then she pulled herself together and fought back.

In the fight, she had a few advantages on her side: 1. She is a lawyer, which didn’t hurt. 2. She had a contract! That’s the most important takeaway here, and 3. She had some help from writers organizations.

It’s a great listen. 🎧

Links from today’s episode:

School Library Journal article about Erica’s experience

Pen America

Authors Against Book Bans

The Authors Guild

The American Library Association

Pride and Less Prejudice

Where to find Erica:

Have Erica come to your school! Everything you need to know HERE.

Erica’s latest: Whale and the Birthday Rocks

Erica Perl on Threads

This has been Episode 449 of the #AmWriting podcast

NEW! Transcript below!

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey writers, KJ here. We just recorded the latest booklabs first pages episode and it is packed. We read the first page as in 350 words of a listener's work in progress and then ask that one all important question. Would we turn the page? But of course we do more than that. That would take about two minutes. We're trying to help both the writer and all you listeners out there figure out what's working and what isn't, and what might be the best way to bring a reader into the book's world. So here's the catch, and it's a small one. Booklab episodes and the ability to submit a first page are only available to paid supporters of #AmWriting. So come on over to AmWritingpodcast.com and sign yourself up and you'll get not just the monthly book labs, but also episodes of the Writing the Books series in which Jenny and I help each other through our latest drafts, access to monthly AMAs, and come summer, we shall blueprint once again. So come on in. The price tag's kinda ridiculously low and the water's fine.

All Speaking

The recording now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay, now one two.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is #AMWriting, the weekly podcast about writing all the things, short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction, memoir, everything. This is a podcast about getting your work done and Sarina is going to introduce herself now.

Sarina Bowen

I'm Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of many books of fiction. My latest one is called Dying to Meet You, and I can confirm that it is in a bookstore near you because I probably even visited that bookstore within the last seven days. It's been a little crazy around here in a good way, but in the midst of all the crazy, I was on threads, as one does, when one should actually be writing, and I saw an interesting story which led to us having a guest today that I am super excited about. The story I saw was an author who wrote books for children and writes books for children who had planned a school visit and then suddenly because of some real stupidity that I will let her explain to you, her school visit was canceled. They decided they no longer wanted to hear from this particular person. And that is a thing that I have been hearing more of lately. That's why I'm involved with The Authors Guild and Authors Against Book Bans. And she fought back in the most lovely way. So please welcome author Erica Perl to tell us what happened and what she has learned from it. Welcome Erica!

KJ Dell'Antonia

And I'm gonna give Erica a quick shout out introduction because Erica and I have known each other as she has just pointed out for approximately seven billion years. Since there were dinosaurs roaming the earth and Erica roaming the New York state courts and me as well roaming the New York state courts. Me and the guys of a prosecutor, Erica and the guys of a criminal defense attorney, and we did things together, crazy, as that sounds, because although that sounds like an antagonistic relationship and sometimes is, it also really cannot be. And then she introduced me to people at Slate, and then she wrote a bunch of children's books, and then I wrote about those children's books in various ways, and all kinds of things have happened. And yeah, here we are. - Okay.

Erica Perl

It's true. It's true, it's all true. What can I tell you all? I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. I love them... I love… I'm a fan of the show. So it's really exciting to be here in the first place.

Sarina Bowen

Okay, so first let's have you set the scene. I'm looking at the titles in your extensive list of fantastic kids books. And I would say they look right off the cuff. Super controversial to me.

Erica Perl

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Like, The Three Little Guinea Pigs.

Erica Perl

The Three Little Guinea Pigs.

Sarina Bowen

A picture book. Yeah.

Erica Perl

A classic fairy tale. A retelling of The Three Little Pigs. Yes. With guinea pigs.

Sarina Bowen

Okay. Well, The Three Little Guinea Pigs, right off the bat seems like, you know, a headline news kind of problem here. And also, When Carrot Met Cookie.

Erica Perl

Yes. Yes. talking, talking food. Scary!

Sarina Bowen

Right. So help us set the scene. How did you become persona non grata for, for books like this?

Erica Perl

Yeah. So the story is this, as, as KJ mentioned, a lifetime ago, I was an attorney. I was a criminal defense attorney in New York, which is how KJ and I met. And, but I dreamed of writing children's books. And I actually, at that time, started taking classes at night because it was the secret passion of mine. And many, many years later, I started "Zen in the Mood." I started getting published. And I've now had books published over the course of the last 20 years. My first book came out in 2005. And I've published about 40 -something going on 50 books, all with traditional mainstream presses. And as you mentioned, it's not that I'm trying to avoid controversy, but most of the stuff I write about I write for kids from very little kids up to teens and most of the stuff I write about is about you know, kind of childhood centric experiences making friends and feeling different and searching for connections.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And um and going to bed and getting up and yes you know, my children's particular favorite of yours, which you want signed for them was Chicken Bedtime Is Really Early.

Erica Perl

Chicken Bedtime Is Really Early

KJ Dell'Antonia

We say that in our house constantly. Chicken Bedtime is Early.

Erica Perl

That makes me happy. I've always, in our house, we have the classic lines from books we read when my kids were little and I always aspire to that, just having, you know, kind of being in someone's childhood rotation. So anyway, in addition to writing books, I also teach writing and a variety of capacities. And I also do author visits. Many children's book authors do this. And it's sort of a nice way to, in addition to the, you know, what we make writing books on our advances and if we're lucky our royalties, we also get paid to go to schools and spend the day doing presentations about being an author, about the creative process, about where do you get your ideas. And the whole purpose of doing author visits isn't to sell books, it's really to kind of get kids excited about writing their own, telling their own stories and about reading. And so I routinely do those, you know, many times during the year. And I have an agent who specifically handles my bookings, as many authors do, because if there was a time when I did that myself, and it's just like way too many emails. And so It's nice to have someone who handles all the logistics so that when you go out to wherever you go. Everything's all set for you. Okay, so I had a school visit on my calendar coming up and I wasn't giving it much thought because as I said my my booking agent who's name is Sarah DeVore , and she's of How Now Booking, and she's great, she took care of all the details. I wasn't worried about it or thinking about it and then out of the blue I heard that it was canceled. I think Sarah actually forwarded an email she had received. And I thought it was really strange because sometimes things have to get rescheduled, like there's school testing or there's something going on. But I've never had a visit canceled. And there was no explanation for it being canceled. And Sarah and I kind of got our Spidey senses up because we didn't know what was going on, but it didn't feel right. And she did some research on her end, and we discovered that a single, individual parent had seen a social media video that I made about a year earlier for Pride Month. Because in addition to all the other books that I have, I have an early reader series called Whale, Quail, Snail. And Whale, Quail, Snail is a, like I said, it's early readers. So it's for like really little kids. It's really very low reading level for kids who are just starting, kids are just starting to, you can read it aloud, but you can also, if you're starting to learn how to read, it's a great book to kind of learn on.

Sarina Bowen

Sure.

Erica Perl

And it's about three characters, three friends, a whale, a quail, and a snail. And this book was selected by a group called Pride and Less Prejudice, which is a group, a nonprofit organization that provides collections, curated collections of books that have positive LGBTQ+ representation in them. And they picked this book because “Snail” uses they /them pronouns. And they thought it was a really nice representation, kind of like a casual non -binary representation. And the book's not about Snail being non -binary. The reason I made that choice as an author is that snails actually are intersex. They are not boys or girls. And when I discovered that, I thought I should probably represent that in this book.

Sarina Bowen

Okay. So biology.

Erica Perl

Biology, yeah. But that is literally the only way in which it comes up in the book. And I was actually surprised that they picked my book because some of the other books that they pick are really wonderful books that are actually about how important it is to welcome all different kinds of families and just all you know kind of more thematically about that. This is not about that. That's my point. Anyway, so I made this video. I mentioned that they had chosen the book. I explained why and I said, you know, happy pride. And forgot about it, and then apparently some parent at this school saw the video and went to the principal. I presumed Freaked out about this video. I don't know if this parent ever saw my book or read my book. I just know that the video spurred the conversation with the principal and the principal canceled the Visit. At which point, I tried to facilitate a conversation in which I said, "What can we do? How can we fix this?" Particularly because they were giving me this sort of pretext reason. They said, "Oh, the librarian shouldn't have signed the contract. We have a prop policy and we don't deal with it this way." And I knew that was inaccurate because I knew that the librarian had actually brought in authors in previous years. And I also knew that if that was the case, you could fix it. You could have someone else sign the contract. And so I said, can we change the date? Do you need more time? And they immediately sent the case to the district attorney, the county attorney for this county. This took place in Virginia. And so all of a sudden I'm getting emails from this lawyer who's saying, like, don't talk to anyone at the school, this is a legal matter, like we're done with you and PS, we're not paying you. Which is something that--

Sarina Bowen

Oh my goodness.

Erica Perl

Which is something that the principal actually said also, but the attorney doubled down on it and was just like, so sorry, go away. - Wow. - And yeah. And I had also learned that the principal had told the librarian that if the school was forced to pay me for this visit, the librarian would have to pay out of her own pocket, which I was not going to let happen. So, yeah. So, and the other thing that I should mention is I have a contract, as I said, I have a booking agent, and she had set up a contract, which the librarian had signed on behalf of the school, which she's authorized to do. And in my contract, it said you need all sorts of things, including you need to give 30 days notice if you want to cancel a visit. I took out my calendar and this was 28 days and so I just said you know in the most basic of terms you didn't give me notice and you have to pay for this. There's a cancellation fee specified in my, in my contract and the amount is my day's rate. Anyway, so they, you know, told me to go away and I looked again at my contract and realized that not only was I entitled to be paid for the visit, but the contract specified that the law that governs this particular contract is not the law of the part of Virginia at all. It's the law of where I live. So it dawned on me that I could just go down to my local small claims court and fill out paperwork, which is something, I mean, I mean, I am an attorney, but you don't need to be an attorney, you don't need to have any legal knowledge. The whole point of small claims court is that anyone can come in and file a case against anyone else who owes the money or who has broken a contract, which is what happened.

Sarina Bowen

Right. And I think we lose sight of that sometimes because it does just sound daunting to file a claim.

Erica Perl

Oh yeah!

Sarina Bowen

If you're not an attorney, so thank you for saying that.

Erica Perl

Oh, absolutely. And honestly, I actually asked a couple of other attorney friends of mine, just because I was like, Am I missing something here, it seems to me, I haven't practiced law in quite a while, so maybe it's changed. But I think anybody can do this. And then when I went to small claims court, I physically went in person, and everybody there was so helpful, and they gave me the papers, and they showed me how to fill it out. And it wasn't that hard. It didn't cost much. It cost it, you know, a couple, like, I want to say, like, $20 to for filing fees, which included them serving the people I was, I was filing the claim against, which was the school board and in the county, and so the school board in the school system, I think I sued. So, so I just, you know, I paid the small amount of fees and I filed the papers, and the next thing I knew, I got noticed through the mail that they had been served, which means that, like the the court took care of filing legal papers and showing up in this county in Virginia, and saying, Here you go. You got served. And the thing that happened after that is I got an email saying we're not admitting that we’d done anything wrong here. We're sending, we're going to send you a check and we're going to settle this. So yeah, so I, I feel like I skipped a step, which is how hard this was. Because honestly, the filing part was easy, but getting the strength to do it was the hard part, because when it happened, I really felt like I just wanted to go away. I just wanted to, you know, to use a snail analogy, hide in my shell. I just wanted to like I felt awful and I felt bad, even though I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, because they were treating me like I had done something wrong and like I was a danger to kids.

Sarina Bowen

And why do we do that? Why? Do we do that to ourselves? Like, is that like a special writer thing or, or what?

Erica Perl

I mean... I think, yeah, I think there is this part of us that feels and it's funny, because you guys have talked about this on the show before that we feel lucky to even have the chance to do so many things that we do, even though we've worked really hard to get where we are, you know? And so I feel like it's this imposter syndrome thing where they say you're not really, you know, giving anything of value to our kids. You're just here to harm them. And you think they're saying it'll both be true, even though you know it's not true.

Sarina Bowen

Plus, also the energy it takes to take your creative work and put it out there in the world and ask the world to love it, you know, or to even just spend some of their precious day on it. And that takes, like, the first, like, a big tier of strength, and then if somebody comes back and slaps you for it, like, you know, that is gonna create a snail shell moment for even the bravest writer, I think.

Erica Perl

Yeah! Absolutely. And it, and it, and it happens to a lot of us. And I feel like I have a lot of friends who are really strong and courageous because they, you know, they write work that is, that is more kind of, you know, that they know will may draw attention because it deals with sexuality, or it deals with race, or it deals with things that are really hard for some people to deal with, and they walk out there every day with their armor on, and I have so much love and respect for them. And I feel like I have spent my whole career kind of like, you know, walking around not having to worry about that stuff, because everything I write is kind of safe, you know? Not everything, maybe, but most of what I write, um, is kind of in this terrain of like, you know, I do write things for older kids, but even the stuff I write for older kids. I'm really, really, like, not known for being one of those, like, edgy writers. I'm known for being somebody who's really kind of in a zone that is palatable to most people. I guess I should say, I mean, it's like…

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I aspire to be edgy, but nobody has ever called me edgy. So... Right, right. Maybe someday...

Erica Perl

Yeah, so I, you know, I have lots of friends who are and I admire them, as I said, because they know that, that they may draw this kind of attention, and they're ready for the fight. And I think I was blindsided a little bit by this and scared, because I just felt like me?! I, you know, can we just talk about this? That's not who I am, but the truth of that is, right now, we are all vulnerable to this kind of attack. And so that's for me. All of a sudden I felt like, Okay, wait a second. Like, I've been walking around feeling like, oh, the edgy people can handle this fight. And then I thought, wait a second, this is not just the fight for the edgy people or for the people who are, you know, prepared for it. This is a fight we all have to be involved in. So I think that was part of why I poked my head out of my shell. Because I just felt like, if I walk away from this, like it's, it's, it's not okay. It's not okay to let other people fight this fight, and to just say, Oh, I'm good. I'll just, you know, I'll just take the hit. Other schools will book me, and they do, um, but it just felt like I'm not walking away from this fight. It's too important.

Sarina Bowen

Right? Do you think so? It reminds me of something weird that happened to me a couple years ago where I got actual like, people telling me to off myself on my social media, posts like for a thing that I actually didn't do. Yeah, it was because a big piracy site got shut down, and I had once given a quote about this thing, and then the internet decided that I had, single handedly, it was so dumb, but that because it was so very dumb, and I still, I went through that same thing that you described, where you just want to curl up in a ball, and why, Oh, my God. Like the things people are saying to me, they're so terrible. Like, how did I get here? But, but after, you know, I don't know, 12 hours of pain, I it actually made me, like, stronger afterwards, because it was this realization that, um, I thought if I ever was canceled, it would be for something I actually did, or some, some objectionable thing I actually said, like, some mistake that I that made, and I've been such a striver my whole life not to ever offend anyone. And so it was clarifying, like, oh, wait a second, you know, the internet might yell at me for no reason at all. So maybe I should stop tiptoeing around on eggshells and worrying that, like a meteor is about to hit my house, because, you know, it might, but I just don't have to worry so much about it anymore. Like, do you think you'll be able to come to a place where that might actually help you, like not worry about it anymore?

Erica Perl

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're 100% right about that. They, you know, we, I do. I can't speak for other people, but I do walk around trying to make sure everybody is happy. And you get to a point where somebody is unhappy despite your best efforts, and you have to. Just be like, okay, they're going to be that way, and they're going to be unhappy, but I gotta do what's right for me and what's right. And you do gain power. You do gain power from doing that. You gain, I mean, and it was funny, because, so, you know, when I wrote about this, and the other thing that I was really concerned about is I didn't want the librarian to get hurt as a result of any Yes, so I had to be really careful. Because I, you know, I was really fired up at a certain point about, you know, I waited until I got actually paid, like, till the check arrived and the check cleared to actually put anything out there, because I was still scared that they would change their mind and it would, you know, all go away. But when I decided I wanted to say something about it, I really wanted to be careful, because I didn't want anyone else to get hurt. But I also felt like I wanted to say what had happened to me, because it, you know, it did happen, and because it did make me feel better to say, like, we can do this, to say to people like you can you, I did this, you can do this, and to warn other authors about protecting themselves from this kind of attack. So, yeah, so I do. I do think that, like, if you walk around trying to make sure that you don't, you know, that nobody is offended, that nobody is hurt, that nobody you know you may end up hurting yourself in the process, right? You gotta, kind of like, you know, there comes a point.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I'm sure I felt so much more anxiety through the last whatever decade of trying to be somebody the internet doesn't hate, then I really needed to feel.

Erica Perl

So true. We put that on ourselves, and I don't really know why, but we need to stop. I agree. Yeah, yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

If everyone likes everything you're doing, you're not, probably not doing anything.

Erica Perl

Well. And the other funny thing to you know, to Sarina’s point about things that you don't like. I read. So I wrote this, I wrote this piece, and it was published in the School Library Journal, and it got a lot of additional it just got shared a lot more than I had anticipated. So all of a sudden, people who I didn't think, I assumed it would be seen by librarians and by authors, and that was, you know what I hoped, because those were the audiences I was trying to speak to about what had happened. But it ended up getting through social media and beyond, getting shared and reposted by so many people, which was wonderful. And also, I did get to see a whole bunch of, you know, critical comments as well. And the funniest thing to me was that so many of the people who had something to say about it. Clearly hadn't read the piece. And that really, that really struck me, because, like, what you said, the internet does not care what actually happened. The Internet does not care what you actually did. People were so willing to chime in and say what the you know, lots of people said nice things, but there were people out there who just wanted to say why I was, you know, should, should, you know why I just was completely in the wrong, without having engaged in the piece at all, like the basic information was not in there.

Sarina Bowen

Right. So in, in other words, if the internet doesn't care enough to read what the story is before they comment, then you author Erica Perl, do not have to care what the internet thinks, essentially, which is not the same as not caring what anybody thinks and not wanting to be a good person and never do harm like that. It's the separation of that, that was the hard lesson, right? You know, yeah, because you care so much about writing quality things that are suitable for children, and...

Erica Perl

Oh, I agonize over every word, and then you, yeah, you put something out, and people are just like, let me tell you something. And they're like, Wow, and you didn't even read it. And of course, I don't engage. Just to be clear, I very much do not engage. Did not answer any of those comments, but just watching it go by, it definitely is a lesson. And you know what? There are going to be people who have things to say, and they may not be very well informed, and you just gotta stick to what you're doing, because they you know, the internet, as you say, the internet does not care. But if you get… if you let them suck you down, you really let them take away your power and your happiness.

Sarina Bowen

Right? Well, I'm glad you didn't let them do that, and they certainly didn't take away your power, and I'm really impressed by how you handled it, and what a lesson it can become for other people who might hear this. So that thing about how the governing law of your contract was your own state is pretty powerful. I signed a lot of contracts, and that that's never true of any contract I sign a lot of publishing contracts have New York State listed because, I was told by, actually, by The Authors Guild, and they know these things that New York State is has a lot of judges that understand copyright law really well, like IP law is litigated. You. Frequently in New York, and kind of, that's why, that's why that's done, but also that's where my publishing houses are. So that's an interesting thing to think about in terms of speaking contracts, though.

Erica Perl

Yeah, I mean, so I have a literary agent who handles all my publishing contracts and I feel it like this. This has been an eye opener for me, just in terms of reading contracts. You would think that, since I went to law school, I would, you know, go over my contracts with a fine tooth comb. I don't know about you. KJ, I've become way too lackadaisical about it, and just been like, looks good to me. When do I get paid? And that's not the way we should do things. In a perfect world, we should read our contracts carefully and understand what we're signing both in terms of... and I trust the people who represent me, so I think that's part of it. Like they're very good at their jobs, and I know they've thought about things that I may not have even thought about. I mean, sometimes there are these funny contracts. I don't know if you guys have these, but in the children's book world, there are always these really funny clauses in our contracts about, like, the potential that your book will become an amusement park ride or something like that. You're like, yeah, okay, good one. I look forward to the day that I ride on the three little guinea pigs. But you know…

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, you say that, and then maybe you become the person. I mean, my first book did actually go all the way to becoming a TV show, and I signed that contract with the people who were optioning it. I mean, I skimmed it, yeah, and I have learned since that, yeah, I would have done, I would have, I would have done that differently, and that is a totally different, it's a different podcast. But the important thing is that if you get a contract, do read it, and if there are things that make you go, huh? People will sometimes cross those out. I mean, some places are just like, Nope, this is what this is going to be, but you probably have more. I think we all feel like we have no negotiating room, because please take my thing, please pay me to option, please publish my thing. I you know, I'm a supplicant, just begging you. And if they want the thing, then you should ask for what you want, and if you don't get it, that's fine. But then you also know the parameters of what you do have. And I will add that at some point, I went back and read that contract and was like, You know what? They didn't give me this thing they said they would give and they had to go back and fix a bunch of stuff. So, you know, nobody cares more than you. You gotta read it.

Erica Perl

No, totally, totally, totally true.

Sarina Bowen

I hope that somebody listening to this is like negotiating her very first school visit contract, and is like googling "school visit contract sample", and comes up with this.

Erica Perl

Totally true. I mean, interestingly, I so I actually, when I was, you know, when I was trying to figure out what to do about this situation, I knew that this school had had author visits in the past, and so I did a little bit of digging, and I found an author that I, you know, we're not close friends, but it was someone that I could reach out to and connect with who had visited the school, you know, a year or two before. And I reached out to this person and said, Can I, you know, can you show me your contract? You know, what did, mostly because I wanted to verify that the librarian had signed contracts before. And this person, who is a well published, award winning, awesome author, said to me, oh, you know, I don't really use a contract. I just send an invoice after I do a school visit, I guess maybe I should. And I thought, yeah, you should, because if, if I had done that, I would not be getting anything. I would be… I would not have been able to fight this. I mean, okay, maybe I could have fought this successfully over a lot of time and a lot of energy, but I would not have been able to walk in and be like, hello, here's a document... I win!, and the only reason I could do that is because I had a contract. If you don't have a contract, you're just you're really at a disadvantage. And I really it's very lucky that that person didn't have this experience, that they went to the school, did a presentation, got paid, you know, set an invoice, got paid in the end. But for many authors that you know you're putting yourself in a position that you don't have to be by going in without a contract.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah I was just gonna make that point. We, I mean, we are collegial, friendly people, and we don't like to have necessarily, to say, well, yes, but I need a contract in place. And I actually have once been given a contract for a podcast appearance so to be fair, we don't do that, but we need, you need contracts in place for a lot of reasons. And you can write something really simple and short and have it work out and be, you know, and be just fine and be better than nothing. You also sometimes need a contract, because sometimes it's not the person you're dealing with. It ends up being the problem. You know, if something goes wrong, it's possible that their insurance company is going to be your problem, or their partner or their, you know, next to Kin, I don't know.

Erica Perl

No absolutely,

KJ Dell'Antonia

Just better to have.

Erica Perl

And, I mean, this is something, you know, I. It's funny, because I'm not, I'm not really a very adversarial person, despite the fact that, like, I went to law school and was a courtroom lawyer for several years. I, like, you know, I don't want to have a fight with people. I want to work things out. But you have a contract for when you can't work things out, you have it for, like, the worst case scenario. I mean, I've been, as I said, I've been a published author for 20 years. I've done a gazillion school visits. I love doing school visits. I, you know, I seek out these opportunities. And they, you know, by and large, are amazing. Like, for me, for the kids, for the educators. Like, I always leave there feeling just so happy with how it went, and I get wonderful notes about them, and so, like, it's like a really important and satisfying part of my work life. I've never had anything like this happen before. It just, it just doesn't. It's just a routine thing. I set up a contract. The contract gets shoved to the side. I go to the school, I present my work. I signed books. I meet kids. It's a fabulous, fun day. I go home. A check arrives in the mail, or they give it to me when I'm there, like, the end, it's it. The contract is never even something. It's not a thing. And that's what's nice, is that it's just, it's like, it's a safety net. But sometimes you need a safety net. If you're on the high wire and you fall you're pretty psyched, but that safety net is there.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So do we think the librarian is, like, not, hopefully, gonna suffer any... well, I mean, she's the librarian for a county that's gonna do this, so she's probably got her own problems.

Erica Perl

Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of sympathy for this librarian, because, you know, having an unsupportive principle is, you know, nobody wants to have a boss that doesn't back them up. That doesn't say, you know, I mean, because this librarian had gone to a lot of trouble and put together a whole lot of programming around the visit. Because, like, the best school visits are the ones where you have a really engaged librarian who does things like, sets up a Battle of the Books, and, like, you know, gets the kids to, like, make decorations for the school, and like, does all this fun stuff to get the kids really, you know, animated and energized about the visit that really, that kind of librarian you're lucky to have. And this principal clearly didn't value this librarian, and that's a really lousy position for this librarian to be in. I have connected with this librarian since I received my check, just to check and make sure everything is fine. My understanding is that she read my piece. She felt good about it. She was grateful that I didn't name her or the school in anything that I wrote about it, because I wanted to protect her from any sort of backlash. So I think she's, I think she feels as good as she could about it, but she still has to work in a place where this goes on. And I mean, the other thing I should say, without saying too much about this place, is it's not, it wasn't an isolated incident there, within this county and within a lot of counties right now, there were other things that involved book banning or, you know, content being censored or withdrawn or challenged in ways that that are one person's action that impacts an entire community.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so this one mom, whoever the heck she was...

Erica Perl

We don't know that it's a mom. I'm just gonna say we had a parent. We don't know.

Sarina Bowen

You're right. Some parent is doing that thing that you know, Authors Against Book Bans are putting all their energy toward stopping, which is this one person, whoever they were, prevented an entire school from meeting you, and cost her school or his school the whole fee and the trouble of involving their lead counsel. So I suppose we can hope that just maybe the school learned something from this experience. But, you know, I don't know how much hope I have about that.

Erica Perl

Yeah, the sad thing is that I think probably the lesson that this principal in particular learned is... don't have any more author visits, is, don't put, you know, don't, don't go down this road. So not only did this visit not happen, and that, the other thing about when you did what you just, just described is accurate. These kids didn't get to meet the author. These, you know, none, and it happens in secret. The other thing that's really kind of galling about this is that it's, you know, probably the families did not, you know, there wasn't this happened, as I said, 28 days before my visit, probably just sort of quietly got taken off the school calendar. And the kids, you know, sort of maybe a kid said whatever happened with that other visit. But there was not any sort of, like, to my knowledge, public conversation that happened at the school. It was just sort of like this one parent complained, and then the principal dealt with it, and then it just went away.

Sarina Bowen

Wow. And that lack of public discourse is just so chilling.

Erica Perl

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

The 30 families who would have really, you know, probably more, who really would have wanted you, and who would have been outraged that this happened, didn't get a chance to say...

Erica Perl

No ,absolutely not. They didn't even know. And they probably don't know the school had 400 kids, so a lot of families.

KJ Dell'Antonia

What I have learned recently, you know, I met some people that moved into our community, and they were talking about our schools, and I was in a conversation where I sort of did not know what I had gotten myself into, and I very quickly realized they're spoiling for this. These people, they are sincerely they're sending their children to school with their antenna out, hoping that somebody is going to do something offensive so that they can, they as in the same way that maybe we would really like the opportunity to stand up for what we believe in, they're looking for the chance to do these things. And it was surprising and strange to be in that conversation, but, you know, as a firsthand...oh, okay....here we are…

Erica Perl

Yeah. I get that people on both sides of this issue all come from the same place. They love their kids, they want to protect their kids. We all love our kids and want to protect our kids, but the way in which this is being represented, and the decisions that are being made based on those laudable objectives are hurting other people and are oftentimes, as I said, so far away from the actual information. I mean, in this case, I mean, I should also add like, I don't even like, the only way in which kids even encounter the book in question in my presentations is it's an image on a slide. And I say, these are some of the books I write. I don't routinely read it out loud, and even when I do... as I said, it's got three instances of the word they or them, representing, you know, like snail hid in their shell, that kind of thing. I've never had a kid raise a hand and say, why is snail using they/them pronouns? Like it's just not a thing. It's a complete non issue. So I'm not saying that, you know that we shouldn't have books that talk about gender for little kids. I think that's it's… I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I feel like these families that were so scared of the impact that my work would have on their kids really spent no time actually thinking about, like, what were they afraid of? What was, you know, what did they think would happen? And, you know, yeah, so, as I said, I think they come, they may come at it for a good reason. They want to protect their kids, but protect them from what exactly, and how does this? How does this help?

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. I'm not even convinced of the...

Erica Perl

Of the good intentions? Yeah, well, maybe I'm, maybe I'm being too generous.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I mean, you know, there's an intention there, but I think it sometimes can be to be noisy and to put your foot down and to make the point that you don't know who you're dealing with here.

Erica Perl

Yeah, I'm sure that's true, too. I like to believe. I like to see the good in people. I had a hard time believing this was actually gonna go away, because I thought we could work it out. Obviously, we couldn't. So, yeah, I'm not...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, you could have taken that slide out. I mean, I'm fine. I'll leave this book out, whatever.

Erica Perl

It's funny. I have had instances where people have, you know, had wanted to talk to me about, like, my actual content. Like, I have a book called Chicken Butt. I have had schools that are concerned about that word, and so, you know, I've talked to them about it, but I won't take it out. Chicken Butt is in all my presentations, for a reason, because I really do I emphasize with kids that, no matter, you know, when you have ideas, you should write them down, even if they're the kind of throwaway ideas that don't think like they're going to go anywhere this could become a book, and you just never know. So for me, it's a really important point to make and Chicken Butt it's just the vehicle through which I make it and but when I have that conversation with a thoughtful human with a principal who actually has an open mind, the answer routinely has been, Oh, I get that. Okay, yes. Like, maybe we'll have to listen to kids saying Chicken Butt on the playground for a week. But it's worth it, because I see why you're doing that. There's actual intentionality So, and I also have had...

KJ Dell'Antonia

I'm just picturing the process over snail, quail, yeah, no, I whale too. You're like, Okay, I need rhyming animals.

Erica Perl

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I got the...

Erica PerlYeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Ok cool, right, right, right, right. Snail's name is snail whales, nail, and then, oh, I need Wait. Is snail a boy or a girl?

Erica Perl

That's exactly... my initial draft... they were all...

KJ Dell'Antonia

I can't, because it's a character.

Erica Perl

This is, yeah, no, this is the thing about...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Do I put a pink bow on the shell? I mean, it's just Yeah, and you didn't even pick snail like, I wish to make a point, about...

Erica Perl

No, not at all. My initial draft.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Snail rhymes.

Erica Perl

Right, absolutely. And they're so they're, I mean, Sam Ailey did the art. They are so dang cute. So, yeah, I'm very happy with them. And...

KJ Dell'Antonia

I mean, nobody is picking like, nobody intentionally going, I'm gonna go for cute animals, people will love, is gonna go for a quail.

Erica Perl

Yeah.

KJ Dell'AntoniaNot that quails aren't great, but it's just not like, you know, there aren't many stuffies.

Erica Perl

It's true.

KJ Dell'Antonia

There should be more, my little quails.

Erica Perl

There should be more quail stuffies in my world.

KJ Dell'Antonia

We need more quail.

Sarina Bowen

I have to say...Now I kind of want the book where I am told why snail is a they, because biology is the most fascinating thing. And you know, so much of the gender discourse in this country is flattened into, you know, so...

KJ Dell'Antonia

When a snail grows up and wants to make more snails.

Erica Perl

It gets very complicated very fast. I will tell you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

It really happens in a totally different way.

Erica Perl

Well, it's funny, because in the book, the actual, the first, this is a series, so there are actually three books out and one coming. But in the book, when they first meet snail, they mistake snail for a rock. So snail is, you know, they have confusion about snail, because snail, as you can see, I know this is a podcast, but for those who are listening, snail appears on a surfboard, because, of course, and they assume that snail is a rock. And so snail actually has to clarify who they are in that moment, like, I'm not a rock, I am a snail. And that is really, you know, I think some might see that as sort of me echoing the other issue. But it doesn't. It's just basically snail gets mistaken for a rock and has to establish that they are, in fact, a snail. But snail will be the first to tell you that their pronouns are not the most interesting thing about them. They ride a surfboard, folks.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, it's a surfing snail, not just that's not a regular snail. It's a cool snail.

Sarina Bowen

I like snails so much already, and I really like how well you tell the story, and how you waited until it really had reached its point of, you know, satisfaction to tell it, and you pick such a great venue, the School Library Journal, to make your statement and and because you did that with such care, so many people are going to receive this lesson. And it's just fantastic. I'm just so glad you could join us today. What is your newest book?

Erica Perl

Oh, that's such a good question, because I'm often working on many books at once. So there is another Whale, Quail, Snail book, which is called Whale and the Birthday Rocks, and that is coming out soon. I wish I could tell you when, but I often forget this stuff. So Whale and the Birthday Rocks is coming out soon. I think that might be my next book. I feel like it's coming out before the year is out, but I'm not. Don't quote me on that, because I often have multiple books happening at the same time. Can I say one other thing that I forgot to say and probably should have said earlier, please do, which is just that I had some I had wonderful guidance along the way, as I was struggling over this, from individual friends who were wonderful, and from just people who do this work all the time and know what they're doing, like you've mentioned, a couple of them, The Authors Guild authors, Authors Against Book Bans and Pen America. And ultimately, I ended up donating the fee that I got to Authors Guild and Pen America, no sorry, to Pen America and the American Library Association's Office of Intellectual Freedom. Those were the two organizations that I chose to donate my fee to because those, those four groups that I just named, and probably others that I'm not remembering at this moment, all have actual human beings who were wonderful and talked to me and offered me support and explained to me what other people were going through, and contextualized this in the bigger kind of world that we're living in. And so that was really, really helpful at a point where I was feeling super alone in this. So I just, I wanted to say that, both to say that I didn't do this by myself, and also that if anyone else is going through this, there are people out there who can be really helpful. And that's where I would point you.

Sarina Bowen

That is a super point. In fact, The Authors Guild members have a portal that they could go through with a problem like this. And the reason that portal is there is because when you log in as a member and go through that Legal Help Portal, you are authorizing the Author's Guild to be of legal assistance to you. It's, yeah, it's not because they just want to put up an internet wall between the human and the author or so anyway, anybody who walks through that portal, those things, whatever you put there, whatever trouble you're having, will be seen by a real human being, and you will get a response,

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. And it will be privileged, I mean, that's important. Why? They, once you walk through that portal, they know you've asked for their presentation, and your conversations become confidential, which is cool.

Erica Perl

Wait, sorry, Two more shout outs that I didn't need to have. One is my publisher, Simon and Schuster, who also was really great, and was there and communicated with The Authors Guild while I was going through this, which is really nice. Like they looped my editor, people looped the legal people in, and they talked to The Authors Guild, so that was all super helpful. And the independent bookseller that would have supported the school visit, because oftentimes schools work with independent booksellers, so I also connected with them, and they knew a lot about the ground situation in their community, and that was incredible. I mean, they were supportive and wonderful, but they also told me things about what was going on that opened my eyes to the fact that this was not an isolated situation.

Sarina Bowen

Fascinating.

Erica Perl

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

All right. Well, this was fantastic. Thank you so so much we love...

Erica Perl

Thank you for having me.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Sharing this. It's, you know, it's the good news, right?

Erica Perl

I mean, it is. It felt good to have a little bit, a little win, you know, a win for the little guy, the little snail, um, to share with people at a time where we're feeling, I'm often day to day feeling very, you know, frustrated about everything that's going on out there. So if I can help people fight their own fights, I want to do that and thank and thank you for all that you do through this podcast, and in many ways to do that that's super helpful. I appreciate it.

Sarina Bowen

We try.

Erica Perl

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

We try. In between, hanging on trying to get some words on the page, which feels really hard this year.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, my God, it does.

Erica Perl

Yeah, yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So, all right, should we shut this one down?

Sarina Bowen

We should, because we have those words to get to.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Until next week everybody keep your butt in the chair, even if it's a chicken butt, keep your chicken butt in the chair and your chicken head in the game.

Sarina Bowen

The hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled “Unemployed Monday,” was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Focus on Work in a Chaotic World May 16, 2025

Hi all, Jess here. This episode was Sarina’s idea, and when you listen you will understand why. It can be hard to focus on the work, whether it’s editing, world building, conjuring meet cutes, or translating research-based hope for the next generation. That said, it’s important that we keep creating and putting our words out into the world. We hope you are able to keep working while navigating the a balance between consuming, processing, and reacting to the news cycle and shutting the world out in self preservation.

Stuff we talked about

Write Through It: An Insider’s Guide to Writing and the Creative Life by Kate McKean

Kate Mckean’s website

We Are All Guilty Here by Karin Slaughter (release date August 12, 2025)

The OpEd Project

Authors Against Book Bans

Possession by A.S. Byatt and the film I adore based on the book

A Complete Unknown film

Hamilton, Non-Stop (“why does he write like he’s running out of time?”)

On Writing by Stephen King

All In by Billie Jean King

Permission by Elissa Altman

Meditation for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman

HEY. Did you know Sarina’s latest thriller is out NOW?

Instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder—and the primary suspect.

New! Transcript below!

EPISODE 448 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Listeners who I know are also readers. Have I got a summer book for you, if you haven't yet ordered Dying to Meet You. Sarina Bowen's latest thriller with just enough romance you have to so let me lay this out for you. Rowan Gallagher is a devoted single mother and a talented architect with a high profile commission restoring a historic mansion for the most powerful family in Maine, but inside, she's a mess. She knows stalking her exes avatar all over Portland on her phone isn't the healthiest way to heal from their breakup, but she's out of ice cream and she's sick of rom coms. Watching his every move is both fascinating and infuriating. He's dining out while she's wallowing on the couch. The last straw comes when he parks in their favorite spot on the waterfront. In a weak moment, she leashes the dog and sets off to see who else is in his car. But instead of catching her ex and a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder and the primary suspect. But Rowan isn't the only one keeping secrets as she digs for the truth, she discovers that the dead man was stalking her too, gathering intimate details about her job and her past, struggling to clear her name, Rowan finds herself spiraling into the shadowy plot that killed him. Will she be the next to die? You're going to love this. I've had a sneak preview, and I think we all know that The Five Year Lie was among the very best reads and listens of last summer, Dying to Meet You, is available in every format and anywhere that you buy books and you could grab your copy, and you absolutely should…right now.

All Talking

Is it recording? Now it's recording, yay, go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm gonna wrestle some papers. Okay, now, 123,

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is hashtag AmWriting podcast the weekly podcast about writing all the things, short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, non fiction, memoir. This is the podcast about finding a way to get your work done, and that is sure what we're gonna talk about this week.

Jess Lahey

I'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation and you can find my journalism over at The New York Times, Washington Post and The Atlantic.

Sarina Bowen

I'm Sarina Bowen. I am the author of many contemporary novels, including Dying to Meet You, which is brand new right now.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yay!

Sarina Bowen

Yay. Thank you.

Jennie Nash

I'm Jennie Nash, I am the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry, and also the author of the Blueprint books, which help people get their books out of their head and onto the page.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And also in your past life, the author of a lot of other books.

Jennie Nash

I know indeed.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I think it's worthy. I do. I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of three novels and two non fiction books, and the former editor and lead writer of the mother lode blog at the New York Times. We have all had a number of careers. And the reason I brought that up, Jenny is that I was just interviewing Kate McKean, who has a new book about the mechanics. Like, it's a great book. It's called Write Through It, and it's sort of like everything we've ever talked about the podcast on the podcast, all the how to stuff all rolled up into one book, which is really cool. But I was telling her that I kind of have a unspoken motto of only taking writing advice from people who have not published a book, very judiciously. Now my freelance editor is not someone who has, or, I think I don't know if she even wants to publish a book, and she's amazing. So with with some thought, but my point being that you have also published many, many, many books. So if anyone out there hesitates around that don't, don't. Yeah, all right, that was a really lot of introductions. We got something to talk about today, and I'm going to demand that Sarina announce our topic, because she came up with it. Okay.

Sarina Bowen

Well, my topic is how to be present and devote yourself to your writing in a world that is so loud and confusing and it feels like whatever you're working on can't possibly matter as much as what's going on in the world, and all my writer friends are struggling with this right now.

Jess Lahey

It's, it's hard, especially when the work that I do, the work around like writing about kids and parenting and stuff, requires a fair amount of optimism and requires a fair amount of like, it's gonna be great, and here's what you have to do in order to make it be great. And it's really, it's been very hard for me lately to to be in that head space.

Sarina Bowen

Well, Jess, I would argue that, like, at least you're literally helping people. And some of us are fighting meet cutes and first kisses.

Jess Lahey

Okay, you are no but you are so helping people, because over and over and over again, what I hear from your readers and from readers of happy kiss, he a and kissing books that they are the the self care and the reprieve that they really need.

Sarina Bowen

Okay, you you just are. You just gave, like, the point, the point at the top of the notes that I made for this discussion, because people keep saying that to me, and they're not wrong. But for some reason, it hasn't been enough lately, and I, um, I was struggling to figure out why. And then over the last 48 hours, in a feverish rush, I read this Karin Slaughter book that's called We Are All Guilty Here that doesn't come out until August, but please pre order it now and do yourself a favor, because it's so good.

Jess Lahey

I love her books.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so I had the opportunity to have that same experience from the reader side of the coin, which is that I totally lost myself in this fictional world. It It mattered to me as a person to work through those problems, um, in the way that a novel has a beginning and a middle and an end and and I think that part of my big problem right now is that I can't see an end to any of the stuff that's you know happening. So it was helpful to me to have the same experience that my readers described to me, to be like totally sucked into something, and to feel like it mattered to me in the moment.

Jess Lahey

Well…And to add on to that, I had a fantastic sorry KJ and Jenny, we're just we're off on our little happy tangent here. But I had a wonderful conversation with a fan recently in on one at one of my speaking engagements, and she was apologizing to me for feeling like she had a really close relationship with me, even though we hadn't met. And she said, and the reason for that is that you're in my head because I'm listening to your audiobook. And I said, You do not need to apologize to that for that to me, because I have the same experience. And she said, the thing that was nice, you know, because I'm such a big audiobook fan, I feel this weird, parasocial, fictional connection to this person, because it's not just their words, it's also their voice. But the thing that she said was really sweet was she listened in her car, and her car became a place of refuge and a place where she knew she was going to hear a voice that would make her feel like it was going to be okay. And so even though I hear that and I know that, and I've experienced it from the other side with the audiobooks that I listen to, it's still, it is still very hard to look down at the empty page and say, How do I help people feel like everything's going to be okay? And it's, it's a difficult moment for that.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I have been thinking about this too, because I think we all are, and let me just say that this is not just a, you know, we're not, we're not making a grand political statement here, although we, we certainly could. This is, uh, it is a moment of some global turmoil. Whether you think this global turmoil is exactly what the universe needed or not it is still... um, there's a lot.

Jess Lahey

It's just a lot, and it's all the time, and it's like, oh, did you hear this? Did you hear this? And I feel like I'm supposed to be paying attention, and then if I pay attention too much, I feel like my head is it so, yeah, it's just a lot.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So what I want to say is, I think we have to get used to it, and I think it can be done. And I take some encouragement from all the writers who wrote their way through World Wars, who wrote their way through, you know, enormous personal trauma, who have written their way through, you know, enormous political turmoil, in their own countries, both as you know people who are actually writing about what was going on, but also as people who were not, I happen to be a real stan of the World War II books about, not like the drama of the war, but then the home that keep the home fires as they as they would say, stuff like The Diary of a Provincial Lady in Wartime and Angela Thirkell. And it's just, this is what was going on. There's some stuff... I can't think of all of it, but anyway. I love that reminder that life went on, and I think we have had a pretty calm few decades, and that that's been very lucky, but it's actually not the norm. So we gotta get used to this kids.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, I actually, I just flew home from a trip, and Tim was watching on the plane. Tim was watching a film with Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfred Owen. You may know Wilfred Owen as the person who wrote, you know, Dulce et Decorum Est, the whole thing, these are the world war two poets and a world war one poet, sorry, and yeah, they had a lot going on and they were writing poetry. Yeah.

Jennie Nash

Well, I knew from the moment that Sarina posed this question that I was going to be the voice of opposition here today, because I am seeing this and feeling this great surge of creative energy and people wanting to write, wanting to create, wanting to raise their voice, whether it is in opposition or as an act of rebellion or as an active escape, or just as a thing that they've always wanted to do so they're finally going to do it. It feels similar-ish to me as the pandemic did, in that way. And you know what I was thinking about Sarina, is that you are in the both enviable and also not enviable position of having done this a really long time and and you you know how it goes, and you not that it's wrote by any means, writing a book is never wrote. But the the creative process is not new to you, I guess, and I have encounters with a lot of writers through the book coaches I train who are just stepping up into this and just raising their voice and just embracing that. This is a thing that they could do. And this is a, you know, like I just, I've seen people, you know, a lot of dystopian fiction, obviously wanting to be written, climate justice, social justice, you know, books from people who previously marginalized, even like satire about the crazy stuff going on in education, you know, in all genres, all realms, I just feel the people doubling down. And so I wonder if it's, if it's, you know, the writer friends that you talk to are largely in that same boat as you very accomplished and in it. And I don't know it's my conjecture, because I just, I'm really feeling the opposite.

Jess Lahey

Actually, can I? Can I? Can I verify that through something else? So KJ and I have both mentored with The OpEd Project. It's about raising all voices to publish op eds in newspapers, not just, you know, the people that we're used to hearing from. And they put out an email for their mentors, because they said, This moment is generating so much interest in writing op eds, so that's a good thing too.

Jennie Nash

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, I don't know i i also have to say that I personally have made a choice that is inspired by Oliver Burkeman, which is I'm not paying attention, and I know it's a luxury to not pay attention to the news, and I know that that it's a privilege and maybe not always a good thing, but I just made a personal decision that can't right now, or you don't want to, for what it's worth, so I feel a little ashamed about that, to be honest... I feel a lot of times that I'm not doing enough when I catch a glimpse of what's happening or what's going on, or my husband is a voracious consumer of the news, so I it's not like I'm not getting news. I just get it filtered through him and through my children, for sure, and and I would also like to just give a shout out to this podcast, because sometimes through this podcast, I listen to Jess and Sarina, On a podcast you recorded a couple weeks ago about pirate the pirate site episode, and learned so much, and it was so great, you know, so I don't know. I have to say that too, that maybe my stance is coming from a place of not being fully... pulling a little over my own eyes, I guess.

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, I think it's great that you are finding something that you're seeing like a surge of of positive energy. I mean, part of me, as I'm listening to you guys, wants to go well, but you know, nothing I'm I'm doing is a voice of protester opposition, but that's okay. We don't have to be voices of protester opposition. And we have to remember that most of the people in our country do not oppose this. So it's a little bit of a weird I mean, it's it's a weird moment that one's that one's tough, but it's also true. It's not, it's just change. It's just, it's just turmoil. But I love your point that there's, um, there's excitement and energy in turmoil. Maybe this is also a question of sort of where you are in your life, like, where, whether, the turmoil is exciting or stressful, or, I don't even know where I was going with that... okay.

Jennie Nash

Well, but I, I think there's, I've been thinking just a lot about AI and where it's going and what's going to happen. And some days I worry, and some days I fret, and some days, you know, I don't, I don't think about it or whatever, but, but I, the thing I keep coming back to is you can't keep a creator down. You know, the creators want to create. And it's the the process of that, the the creative process, whether somebody doesn't matter what they're writing and and Sarina, that speaks to where, where you are. You know, they could be writing a meet cute, or a first kiss, or what have you, but the fact that they want to be a creator in a world that's on fire is, to me, the hope... the sign, the sign of hope. You know, I actually I'm about to take a trip to Amsterdam, where I've never been, and of course, we're going to go to the Anne Frank House, and I may reengage myself with that story, and thought about it and looked at it, and it's like just the the urge to create, the urge to put it down, the urge to do the thing. And maybe that was an act of protest as well. But, you know, not, not a meet cute, but I just, I just, I believe in the power of the creator and and of that. And Sarina, you're so good at it, at that, at that process, and putting yourself in that process, and being in that process, and it makes me sad that you're questioning it in a way.

Sarina Bowen

Well, you know, I don't know. I actually kind of disagree that, that we can look away right now, because there's a lot at stake for for the for the world that writers operate inside and AI is really important, because there's a lot of super important litigation going down right now about what what is legal in terms of using our work to create AI and to not pay us for it. But also, there are other writers who are being silenced and having their student visas, you know, rejected and and it's only work of other people that is pushing back on this. So it's in some ways, I I can't really say, Oh, it's okay for me to look away right now and go back to this scene, because there are moments that matter more than others, but but in order to not give up my entire job at this moment, because it's so distractingly difficult, what I find I've had to do is figure out which sources really matter and which parts of my day are productively informational, and which parts are just anxiety producing. So by by luck, I went on this long vacation, long for me is like nine days, but we'd been planning it forever because one of my kids is overseas, and we were going there at his exact moment of having a break. So I had a vacation in a way that I haven't in a really long time. And I found that being off cycle from the news really affected my the way that I took it in. And it improved my mental health, even though I was ultimately about as well informed as if I hadn't left but I didn't have any time in the day to, like, scroll through the hysteria on threads. I could only take in the news from a few, like, you know, real sources and and that was really informational to me, like I didn't.. I had not processed the fact that how I take in the necessary information affected whether or not it merely informed me or also made me feel like everything was lost. So that that was pretty important, but also just the fact that that I've also been trying to be out in the world more and be where people are, instead of, instead of looking at my computer screen. And it's not like a work smarter, not harder thing, but like, choose your moments. You know, I believe that we still need to be engaged at this moment and to ask ourselves, what is possible for us to do. But that doesn't mean we have to scroll through all the stress online all day long in order to get there. And to me, that's that's what's made the difference.

Jess Lahey

We've had a rule in our house for a little while now that I'm not allowed to bring up any newsy things or talk about any newsy things after a certain point in the evening, because it messes with Tim's sleep. He would wake up, you know, churning about and thinking about whatever it was that I talked about from the news most recently. So any of those outrage moments are just not allowed in our house in the evening. And I think that's a really healthy barrier to put up and realize that there are points in my day when I can handle it and points in my day when I can't.

KJ Dell'Antonia

It's also possible that the thing that I could most usefully do to change things that I think should be changed is to give money to other people who are working to change them. Because, you know, we can't all... shouting on social media?, not, not useful, right? I'm not gonna run for office, personally. I do have a family member who does that sort of thing, and I love that, but I'm probably not going to, I guess, check in with me in 10 years. I'm, you know, there's only so much I when I think about, okay, what could I possibly do? Most of it is I can give money to people who are doing things that I want done, and the only way I have money to give to people who want things, who are doing things that I want to get done, is to do my job, which is, is to to write books. So there's that.

Jess Lahey

I would like to highlight, however, that Tim and I have both been periodically calling our representatives and having some really, you know, it's obviously not the representative themselves or our senator that we're talking to. We're talking to, you know, someone in their office, some college kid in their office, but the conversations have been fascinating. I've learned a lot just through those conversations. And they don't just sort of take your message and then hang up. They're willing to have a conversation. And it's been, it's been really fascinating. So calling your representatives is a really worthy thing to do.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, many decades ago, I was that person, and therefore I'm a little cynical about it.

Jess Lahey

Well, I do want to give a shout out right now, I've been watching one of my former students who ran for Mitt Romney's Senate seat in Utah as a Democrat, which is an impossible task, but she did really, really well, and she just got to open for Bernie and AOC at the at a thing in in in Utah. And so watching her, or watching people who are, you know, really getting engaged, and by a lot of them are younger people. That's and, you know, my thing is younger people. And so it circles back around to the more supporting I'm doing of people who are younger and people who are energized and excited about getting in there and writing the op eds and speaking and running for office, that has been another place of reprieve for me.

Jennie Nash

So I would love to to ask Sarina about... No no, because something she said, you know, when she said, I I disagree, it just it got me thinking, because I wanted to defend myself, and I don't know, and say, Well, no, I'm not I'm not that terrible. I'm not whatever. But I been listening to you talk, I was realizing that I I really have prioritized my own mental well being over anything else, and in terms of checking out of the things, and I've heard you talk about this before, on on a podcast, but my default response, like on the piece you talked about, about writers and being under attack and what's going on, that's just one tiny thing that's going on in the world of chaos. But that tiny thing I do tell myself I can't do anything. I'm just one person, you know, what? What can I really do? And therefore, then I don't do anything. So I do the bare minimum. I do the bare minimum, you know, like I give money to Authors Guild, right? You know, but it, I'm just going to put myself out there as the, the avatar of the person who says that and doesn't do anything and and then, to be perfectly honest, feels is a little smug when you're like, I'm dying and I'm wrecked and I'm whatever, because you're informed and you're actually doing things, and I'm like... oh, you should be like me and and not do, and then I feel bad about myself. So I just want to put that back as a conversation piece, because I know you have thoughts about that, that one person can't do anything.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so I often feel like there's a lot of problems I would like to solve and and if I tried to take on all of them, then I would be paralyzed, like there would be nothing I can do. And also, there are moments when we have to really pull back and and put our oxygen mask on before assisting others like that is a totally legitimate thing to do. And when I had this experience of going on vacation, and then it was such a big reset for me, I thought, Oh, you dummy, like, you know, that's like a thing I need to keep relearning is that, oh wait no, sometimes we really do have to drop out for for a little bit of time, because we will be more energized afterwards, but, but I bet that that one thing that you're supposed to do will announce itself to you fairly soon. You know what I mean? Like it just because you're having this moment of pulling back and needing to do that doesn't mean that that's a permanent position for you. Like, I don't, I don't believe that, like, because, because I know you care. So...

Jennie Nash

Yeah, yeah. But it's, it's just interesting the different, the different reactions and responses. And I often find myself saying something to my husband, which I'm not proud to share. But the thing that I say is, where is our leader?, who's stepping up?, whatever the topic is, or the area or the realm is like, who's who's going to save us? I I'm looking for somebody else to be the solution.

Sarina Bowen

Well, but, but that that's important though, because part of that is just recognizing that, that without a power structure, who knows what to do? Like, I've been lucky in that, like, I've spent a lot of time on conference calls with The Authors Guild, and I've found that I respect those people so much that you know, when the CEO of The Authors Guild, Mary Rasenberger, has an idea, you know that it's always worth hearing out and not everything you know gets done or becomes a priority of of the but, but I know who to listen to, and that wasn't always true, you know. So I've also subscribed to the emails from Authors Against Book Bans. That's another organization that has a lot of energy right now, and they're doing a fantastic job of paying attention. So, you know, it's, it's okay to pick one little realm and, and that's lately been my solution. Because, yeah, we're not we, we need leaders and, and the reason we're all we're so frustrated is because the lack of true leadership, the lack of leaders who can say, I made a mistake. I don't know everything. I don't have all the answers. Like, that's, you know, that's the kind of people we need in the world, and they're pretty thin on the ground right now. So, yeah, I totally hear what you're saying.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So, I mean, why do we have to say that's useful? I mean, how are we... We're all still working. I mean, yeah, you know, you can listen to Jenny and I trying to write our book every week. And I happen to know that, you know, Sarina is chowing is, you know, nibbling away at new drafts, as is Jess. So we're doing it. We're just distracted.

Sarina Bowen

Well, I always say that everything about writing, you have to learn more than once, like you learned it on a project, and you figure something out and you're like, Oh, right. And I think this is another one of those moments when how to reset yourself, how to. To you know how to find that moment of peace is, this is maybe the the lesson of the week, like, even if you don't, even if you don't write the best chapter of your life between now and the middle of of May, you know you can turn your attention to paying attention to your inner voice and how, how am I feeling right now? And how could I feel better? Like, do I need to go meet a friend in a coffee shop to work? Because that has been a real boon to me lately. Just being changed my scenery change the hours when I look at my inbox, that's another thing that I've done. Right now, I asked my assistant to please watch this one inbox, because I can't watch it myself right now. It's too much of people pulling on my arm. So just, you know, to turn some of the small levers that we have in our lives with regard to how writing fits into your life and see what's working. Like, it's okay to, like, break your strategy a little bit to see, you know, if you can shake up the problem.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I've been trying really hard to answer the voice in my head that says... I just can't do this right now with, well, okay, maybe, maybe you could, like, what if we just sat here for another 10 minutes? Like, what if you just, okay... I hear you like, to sort of like, be the other side for myself, like... hey I hear you, that sounds really rough, but what if we just did this anyway? Just, just tried. And you know, it's, it moves, it moves.

Jess Lahey

Along those same lines. What's been saving me is, as you all know, anyone who's listening to this for a while knows I love, love, love the research process, and I have a very big stack of books to get through, that is research, formative, sort of base level research, foundational research for this thing I want to write and and hearing other people's ideas, and hearing how other people put ideas together, and that just fuels me. And then on the fiction side, I've been and I hadn't even realized I've been doing this until we started talking about this topic. I have been watching a lot of movies I love about the act of creation. I re watched one of my favorites, “Possession” with Jennifer Ehle, and it's just one of my favorite films about… it's based on the the A.S. Byatt novel, Possession, and it's about poets. And then I was watching a movie about a novelist, and I was just re-listening to the new Bob Dylan movie a complete unknown, and hearing about other people's creative process fuels things in me. And I even just listening to the Bob Dylan movie while I was watering the garden, I was like, Oh, I could go, I can't write music, but, but I can still write these other things. Wait, hold on, I'm a writer. And then you start realizing, oh, that creative process is accessible to me too. And you know, whether it's the creative process that changes the world, or the creative process that gives you an outlet. Selfishly, either way, I think it's, it's important, and so I love digging back into and I've talked about, you know, re listening to Amwriting sometimes when, when I need that boost.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Isn't it funny that if Stephen King says, well, I spent, you know, 2016 not doing something, but, but like writing this new book. We're all like, yay, you do that, we love you for that, and that for all of us, we're just like, oh no, you should be... I mean, we gotta, we should do what we do.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, I guess I always think about, there was a moment when I first I saw him, I was so lucky to get to see Hamilton on Broadway, and I remember just that line about writing like you're why does he write like he's running out of time, that idea that like the stuff just is coming pouring out of you, and you've got to put it somewhere before it's over. You know, I love that feeling of desperation, and I get that from listening to other people's creations and other people's research and other people's creative acts. It's, it's good.

Jennie Nash

That's very cool. That is very cool. I I don't know, I guess I'm really good at, or lately have been really good at, at turning off, turning off the inputs, just because I have to too many input puts that will just do me in. And so for me, it's catching myself, catching myself floating over to social media, or catching myself clicking into something that I don't really want to read like you're saying, Sarina, at this this time of day, you know, I sit down to lunch and I don't, I don't want to read that thing. So setting setting aside time to engage with that is like the, the only way that I'm able to do it. And I'll try to choose to read something longer, a longer form thing, or or listen to a podcast. Rather than sound bites or snippets of things. So I'm trying to be self aware about not getting pulled down into the sound bite things. That's, That's what I mean by disengaging is, you know, not going on threads at all. I'm not going on... I sort of can't even look at Facebook or even Instagram. It's just all too, too much, and especially, especially Instagram, where, you know, you'll have all these calls to action, and then... bathing suits. I mean, maybe that's just me, right?

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, you're right. You're right. It's very...

Jennie Nash

Jarring. you know...

KJ Dell'Antonia

You can't control which bits of it like, at least, if you're looking at The Times, you're you know... or The Wall Street Journal, you're getting a section. Instagram is like, this terrible thing just happened here by this Jenny K quitter...

Jennie Nash

It's very jarring. So I don't wish to be there, and I do have to give a shout out to Substack. How great is it to be able to read things without all the noise and distraction from the people that you choose, who are smart and saying smart things. That's that's the thing that I choose, that I really like and kind of toward what you said Jess, happened to be reading the memoir from Billie Jean King called All In.

Jess Lahey

It's so good!

Jennie Nash

And and it's, I mean, talk about just a person who lived her values and made massive change, and understood how change is made, and is paying it forward in her life, and it is so inspiring. And it's, it's not quite, it's not quite the creative act, but it, I guess it's creation of change, but I find it hopeful and inspiring, and I think that's where I come up with the the question of, who's gonna who's gonna save us? Like, Where's, where's our person to lead? Like, like she was at the time when women's... not just athletics, but equality. She did so much for women's equality, and still is, you know, so it makes me hopeful that such people will be rising up and and I will be able to identify and support them.

Jess Lahey

I just finished listening to and reading on the page. I did it both ways. Permission by Elissa Altman about having the courage, it's a memoir, and the courage to create. And she it, she also articulated for me, just how wonderful it is to... I don't know, even if it's not out for mass publication, sometimes writing things down that are the stuff you've gone through and the way you're feeling that's just worth it in and of itself. But anyway, that was a lovely book I highly recommend, Permission by Elissa Altman.

KJ Dell'Antonia

But also I just want to say, and this is sort of suddenly hopped into my head. So I'm working on a book, surprise! Um, I'm trying to do something bigger and different that says a lot of things, and I have thoughts about it and and, um, I actually think I need to shut down input... for... I'm not gonna, I can't do this if, if there's a lot of stuff pouring into me, all the time, and I, I think that's, I think that's fair. I think sometimes, I mean, I was thinking about the person who wrote Permission, and I was thinking, You know what I'll bet she didn't read a lot of while she was writing that? People shouting at her that, that, you know, the better thing for her to do would be to churn butter in a nap dress. I think it probably It took some time to do that. And these poets that we're talking about, they're not writing a poem. Oh, you know, line by line. In between reading thread's posts, they're they're putting their time and energy into their work, and this is kind of what we've been saying all along, like, like, moderate it, choose your things, pick pick your moments. And maybe, you know, some time of quiet to hear what you think about what's going on, as opposed to what everyone else thinks about what's going on, and to let that, to give yourself permission for that to be whatever it is. Maybe it's not what we think, you know? Maybe, maybe its something different. That's okay. So I, I want to shout for, for that, for, okay, do, turn it off, work on a thing.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I feel like if, um, Jenny's point about taking your news from social media is totally different than taking your news from the front page of your favorite newspaper. And I guess to KJ's point that if we turn off the voices that are serving us the least well at this moment, what we might find is that there are more hours in the day to both get our work done and then have a minute to say, what else could I... what else could I do? Is that donating my time somewhere or just getting my own house in order? You know, I find I have more time to do things that matter when I am spending less time in the loud places that aren't serving me personally.

Jess Lahey

Agreed.

Jennie Nash

So well said.

Jess Lahey

I think we should end it there, mainly because we're we've run long, but, I'm really grateful for the four of you, I was going to my last point was going to be that my saving grace has been realizing recently that that it's the people in my life that I want to invest in. I had a realization someone told me some news of via someone else, and I didn't realize how disconnected I had become from the people that are real in my life, and how much more attention I was paying to people I don't know anything, people who I don't know that I have a parasocial relationship with. And so I'm my I have sort of a mid year goal, which is to make sure that the people who are actually in life real important to me, are most important to me. And so I've pulled back from those parasocial relationships and gone toward the real relationships, and I'm grateful so much for the three of you. I feel like you all rescue me in moments of doubt. So thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yay! People are a good use of time, as our friend, Laura Vanderkam says. So Jess shouted out the book Permission. I think if anybody else has a useful book for this moment, I want to offer up, as we have before, Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman. It is a series of four weeks, worth of basically three page long thoughts on how to deal with our own inevitably limited lives and personal resources. And I love it. Does anybody else have anything that would maybe serve people in this moment?

Jess Lahey

Sarina. Sarina, nothing to serve Jenny. Jenny has the Billie Jean King. I mean, the Billie Jean King...that stuff is fantastic. Yeah, she's amazing.

Jennie Nash

She's amazing.

Jess Lahey

All right. Well, thank you so so much everyone for listening to the podcast. We're great. So grateful for you, because you're why we get to keep doing this. And this is fun, and we love lowering our… sorry flattening the curve for a learning curve for other writers. So until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. The hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled “Unemployed Monday,” was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Imagining the Life of Jo Van Gogh May 09, 2025

Joan Fernandez is a former senior marketing executive and general partner of the financial powerhouse Edward Jones. In 2018, she retired from a 30+ year career to be a full-time writer. Since leaving the corporate world, she’s become a member of the Historical Novel Society, the Author’s Guild, and the Women’s Fiction Writers Association (WFWA). In April 2020, she founded a Historical Fiction affinity group within WFWA that grew from a handful of people to nearly two hundred authors. Her debut novel, Saving Vincent: A Novel of Jo van Gogh, has just come out — and I had the great privilege of coaching Joan at two points in her long process of writing this book so I had a front row seat to the deep work she did to bring this story to life.

Writing about a real person has some particular challenges, and we get into that here.

I’m so excited to share our conversation today.Links from the Pod:

Historical Novel Society

the Authors Guild

Women’s Fiction Writers Association (WFWA)

Top Five Regrets of the Dying, Bronnie Ware

Find Joan at www.joanfernandezauthor.com, or on IG at @joanfernandezauthor

DID YOU KNOW SARINA BOWEN’s LATEST BOOK IS OUT NEXT WEEK? That means if you preorder NOW—next week you gets to do a happy dance!

Instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder—and the primary suspect.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Reading a Book Contract May 02, 2025

Jess here with Sarina Bowen to help simplify and demystify author contracts. Let’s start off with a wonderful resource called The Authors Guild. They have sample contracts on their website

The Authors Guild Sample Contract

Sarina made a lovely outline to prepare for the episode (because of course she did) so I’m dropping that here.

* You’re not “selling” your book. You’re licensing it.

* Grant of rights

* Term length

* Which territories

* Which formats

* Territories

* North American

* World English

* World

* Formats and sub rights

* Print and digital and audio

* Sub rights like “first serial”

* Translation MAYBE

* Time limits

* X years

* The life of the copyright

* Financial remuneration: advances and royalty rates. WHEN is it paid? What percentages?

* Advance and payment schedule

* On signing

* On acceptance of the work (after an edit)

* On publication

* A year after publication

* Manuscript delivery and acceptance. What happens if people are unhappy.

* Other clauses

* Copyright stipulation

* The Option Clause

* The Next Published Work Clause

* Cover approval vs consideration or collaboration

* Narrator approval vs consideration

* Indemnification

* What are reserves against returns?

* Reversion terms: bankruptcy, failure to publish, failure to pay, and out of print

* Red flags:

* Film rights, even if they say “non exclusive”

* Derivative works

* Lack of reversion language

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Novel Writing for Journalists with the NYT's Elizabeth Harris Apr 25, 2025

When a former NYT journo who now writes novels (that would be me, hi) gets together with a current NYT journo now writing novels, they—we!—cannot stop talking about the challenges, advantages, schedules, pros and cons of book leave and what it is about fiction that lights some journalists up, and turns some off. It’s the good, the bad and the overcome-able, and a class in how people who know they can get the work done also flail, and yet still get the work done.

Mentioned on the pod:

Fates and Furies, Lauren Groff

Twice in a Full Moon, Christina Lauren

#AmReading

Liz: Naked in the Promised Land, Lillian Faderman

KJ: Didion and Babitz, Lili Anolik

Follow Liz on Instagram: @lizzyaharris

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Business of Being a Writer Apr 18, 2025

Hi #AmWriting listeners, Jennie here! Today, I'm talking to Jane Friedman, who is one of the most trusted voices in the world of publishing.She has advised and served organizations such as Writers Digest, The Chicago Manual of Style, The Editorial Freelancers Association, the Alliance of Independent Authors, and the National Endowment for the Arts, among others. She writes two must-read newsletters for industry professionals. One is her personal newsletter, and the other is The Bottom Line (previously called The Hot Sheet), where she provides nuanced market intelligence to thousands of authors and industry professionals. The reason I wanted to speak with Jane on the podcast today is that she has just released an updated version of her book, The Business of Being a Writer, which digs into the nuts and bolts of the writing life, including the work of getting published and choosing how to do that, and the work of making money. It is one of those must-read books for writers who are serious about making a mark.

Jane offers so much information, some tough love, and also a reason for hope, and I'm so excited I’m talking to Jane about her own writing process, and her advice for writers.

Links from the Pod

Jane’s Trademark situation via Writer’s Digest

Jane’s The Bottom Line Newsletter

The Author’s Guild (for AI info)

Simon Willison’s Things We Learned About LLMs in 2024 (via Substack)

Make Art Make Money, Elizabeth Hyde Stevens

How to Reform Capitalism, Alain de Botton

The Gift, Lewis Hyde

Dana Gioia

Alan Watt’s Out of Your Mind

Find Jane via her website: www.janefriendman.com, or on Instagram at @janefriedman

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Booklab: First Pages (a bite of sci-fi/fantasy action-adventure and Conditioned, a memoir) Apr 11, 2025

Hey listeners: This week, everyone gets a taste of what paid supporters will get more regularly—a special Booklab: First Pages episode. Each month (and sometimes more often), we’ll choose two “first pages” to review. A first page, for our purposes, is the first 350 words of your book—fiction, non-fiction or memoir. We will read the page aloud on the podcast and discuss with a single thought in mind: Would we keep reading?

First pages are incredibly important in every genre. If you can’t grab a reader on that first page, you might lose your chance of grabbing them at all. On the podcast, we’ll read the page aloud and then each cast our “vote”—would we keep going? Then—and this is the most important bit— we’ll discuss why or why not. Were we dying to know what would happen next, or turned off by an info dump? Ready to learn what you have to teach us or ready to see what’s on YouTube? Totally on board with a character or uncertain why we were there in the first place?

In this episode, we discuss a high-action page of sci-fi/fantasy and then a memoir, and in both—even though we KNOW we told the writers to give us only 350 words… we want more. Not more words—more from THESE words. And we have ideas for how to make that happen.

The opportunity to have your first page reviewed is available to our Sticker and Sparkly Star Sticker supporters only. (That’s anyone with a monthly or annual subscription via Substack). Always, there’s one central question: Would we turn the page? We tell you why or why not, and help these generous, brave writers to make their first pages irresistible—and their examples will help you make your first page sing.

This episode is for everyone! But Booklabs (like the one we released in December, discussing a novel with another great first line: Every expensive hotel has its own scent and a memoir of parenting an adult child with addiction) are usually for paid subscribers only. Find the rest HERE.

So if you haven’t—yet—decided to support the podcast we know you love, now’s the perfect time. BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE.

I want you to put my first page to the test… but not until I listen to all the others!

Not only do paid supporters get Booklab episodes and the ability to submit first pages for consideration for a future episode of Booklabs, they also get monthly AMA’s with your hosts (This month is with KJ, coming April 25th). And…. formal announcement coming, but Jennie and I (this is KJ) realized last month that we’ve both finished a Blueprint and are starting to draft our manuscripts. We’re doing a (mostly) weekly series we call Writing the Books (WTB for short), and the first very very personal episode is coming your way April 15. Those will be paywalled, so that we can share everything.

Want to submit a first page? Paid subscribers, click HERE for details.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

A.I. Training and Piracy: What You Need to Know Apr 04, 2025

Social media is all aflutter over an article by Alex Reisner in The Atlantic: The Unbelievable Scale of A.I.’s Pirated Books Problem. In this episode, Jess and Sarina cover the news and its ramifications for authors.

You won’t want to miss this discussion about the lawsuits against Meta and OpenAI. We discuss problems and remedies, and the formation of legal markets for A.I. training. Like the work by HarperCollins on a paid licensing deal.

We also discuss the root cause: ebook piracy, and author reactions. Including this heartfelt one from author Julia Sykes.

Sarina has also written more about piracy, and how to move toward a world where it’s not as prevalent.

Join us for all the latest news!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Creativity, Compromise, and Commercial Viability Mar 28, 2025

Michael Dante DiMartino graduated from the Rhode Island School of Design with a BFA in Film and Animation. His directing credits include the primetime animated series King of the Hill, Family Guy, and Mission Hill. DiMartino is the co-creator of the award-winning animated Nickelodeon series Avatar: The Last Airbender and its sequel, The Legend of Korra. From 2002 to 2014, he served as executive producer and story editor for both series. He continued Korra’s story as the writer of the graphic novels Turf Wars and Ruins of the Empire. His other projects include authoring the fantasy novels Rebel Genius and Warrior Genius as well as creating and writing the Audible Original fiction podcast, Sundown: A Time Capsule Society Mystery. His latest novel is the YA coming-of-age story, Both Here And Gone.

Currently, DiMartino serves as the co-Chief Creative Officer of Avatar Studios, developing new content for the Avatar-verse.You can find out more about Michael by visiting his website www.michaeldantedimartino.com, on Facebook /MichaelDanteDiMartino, or on Instagram @mike_dante_d

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How (and Why) to Submit to Literary Mags and Small Presses Mar 21, 2025

Let me start with this: if you have any interest at all in literary magazines or small presses, you want this book: How to Submit: Getting Your Writing Published with Literary Magazines and Small Presses. It’s a wonderful book and a great guide, and will lead you into this world and help you feel good about your journey without your getting lost in the universe of scattered information that’s available online. We’ve included a ton of links to that scattered universe below, but I encourage you to buy the book, which will ground you in your own journey.

I loved doing this interview, which felt like a return to my own roots in magazine work. As Dennis puts it in the book, there is something about doing the work of shorter pieces and pushing your own boundaries that can be remarkably helpful whether or not you’re also engaged in long form book, and there’s nothing I love more than a roadmap and a checklist. Start, please, by reading and exploring in this world, and then we hope to hear about you contributing. Send links, always!

You know, that’s a thing we should do. I’m creating a chat for links and success stories. By the time you see this, it will have been rolling for a while, but go check it out and add yours HERE.

And follow Dennis!

Links from the pod

Heavy Feather Review’s Where to Submit list

AM/PM, Amelia Gray

Underworld, Don Delillo

Making a Literary Life, Carolyn See

Clifford Garstang’s Literary Magazine Rankings

Margot Atwell’s piece in LitHub about the big five thinking of small press as farm Team

Dorothy, a publishing project

#AmReading

Dennis: God Bless You, Otis Spunkmeyer by Joseph Earl Thomas

Index for Continuance podcast

Material Witness, Aditi Machado

Runaways: A Writer's Dilemma, Michael J. Seidlinger

KJ: Margo's Got Money Troubles, Rufi Thorpe

Death of the Author, Nnedi Okorafor

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

A Peek Inside a Hybrid Publisher Mar 14, 2025

There are many misconceptions about what a hybrid publisher does or doesn’t do, and why it may or may not be a good choice for a writer. I thought hearing from a hybrid publisher directly would be educational for our audience, so I’m pleased to be speaking in this episode to Dr. Nick Courtright, CEO of Atmosphere Press.

Check out Atmosphere Press here or submit a manuscript here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Outer World of Publishing Mar 07, 2025

Hey ho, Jess here. This week, all four of us discuss some of the happenings out there in the publishing world.

First up: Super Bowl Sunday is apparently a great reading day. Sarina sent us a screenshot of her sales (she was tipped off by another author) and found out what many people are reading during the game:

So that’s fun.

Next up, Sean Manning of Simon & Schuster announced no more blurbs (yay!)…unless you want to (boo!) in Publisher’s Weekly and everyone had a lot to say about it. The New York Times, LitHub, lots of others. We add some perspective to the conversation as both blurbees and blurbers.

Here’s that wonderful AJ Jacobs NYT piece about not blurbing.

And Rebecca Makkai’s piece on not blurbing anymore in her Substack.

PEN America

The Authors Guild. Please join.

Authors Against Book Bans. Please join.

Is Sarina Bowen going to jail? We sure hope not.

Here’s OK SB593, the legislation we discussed by the dude in Oklahoma. Make sure to check out the language on pages 10-11. Don’t take our word for it, read it yourself.

Here’s an example of the work The Authors Guild is doing to stop book banning, in this case in Idaho.

I mentioned author and illustrator Katherine Roy in passing, so here’s her episode and her website, and the book I mentioned, Making More: How Life Begins.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Have a Thick Skin, with Lauren Blakely Feb 28, 2025

Hi listeners! Sarina here, with a topic that has been on my mind for years. When I began my career, everyone told me I had to develop a “thick skin” to do this job. But it turns out that a “thick skin” is one of the only things you can’t buy on Amazon.

Today I invite my friend Lauren Blakely onto the podcast for a frank discussion of all that we’ve learned about resilience, one-star ratings and feedback these past ten years or so.

Together, we offer the beginnings of a handy framework for how to think about feedback. We offer some actionable advice for what to do, where to turn and how to process unsolicited criticism.

You do not have to attend every conversation you’re invited to. - A wise stranger on the interwebs.

Since avoiding negative feedback just isn’t feasible, we discuss the following coping mechanisms.

* Checking in with a friend and having friends in the business

* How to make sure that good feedback is as available and memorable as the bad

* Recognizing that clinging to negatives is how the brain works. That reflex has an important evolutionary role, but we don’t have to subjugate ourselves to it.

* Lifting up other people as soulcraft

Where to find Lauren Blakely:

Ms. Blakely is the author of multiple bestsellers. For a master class in how to package genre fiction, you’ll definitely want a peek at her backlist.

Find more from Lauren at Instagram!

What we are reading:

Lauren is loving the forthcoming Shoot Your Shot by Lexi LaFleur. It’s a hockey romance.

Sarina is loving The Notebook: A History of Thinking on Paper by Roland Allen, which tickles her geeky, paper-loving heart.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Writing Partnerships with Rebecca Winthrop and Jenny Anderson Feb 21, 2025

“If the language isn’t there, I have difficulty showing up for the idea” - Jenny Anderson

Jess here. Rebecca Winthrop, Director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution, and Jenny Anderson, award-winning journalist, paired up to write one of my favorite education and parenting books in recent memory: The Disengaged Teen.

While I adore the book and could go on for ages about it, that’s not why I invited these two to come on the podcast. I am fascinated - and strangely horrified - by the idea of co-writing. Maybe it’s my control issues, who knows. I’ve asked Sarina Bowen about her writing partnerships with Tanya Eby and Elle Kennedy (come ON now, have you read their award-winning trilogy, Him, Us and Epic?) so I thought I’d give her a bit of a break and ask Rebecca and Jenny to tell me all about how their writing collaboration went with this book.

I learned a lot during this podcast, but the thing I’m definitely taking with me is the concept of “clearing” before a collaboration or writing session. I’ve tried it a few times and so far, I love it. No, I can’t find any links for this specific practice despite the breadcrumbs “Narrative company” and “clearing,” so if you find out on your own, drop me a line so I can give credit where credit is due.

Edited: A lovely listener came through! https://www.narativ.uk/

Things we mention in the episode:

Jenny’s Substack, How to Be Brave

Rebecca’s newsletter over at LinkedIn, Winthrop’s World of Education

Sharepoint

QUICK NOTE for non-fiction writers! Friend of the pod Christie Aschwanden is running her non-fiction book proposal workshop again for the first time since 2022. It’s 8 weeks long and participants are carefully vetted (requires an application) and it’s had great results in the past. All details HERE: The Book Proposal Factory.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Wrangling the Doubt Monster with Amy Bernstein Feb 14, 2025

Do you have a Doubt Monster? (Doesn’t everyone?) Amy Bernstein is an Author Accelerator certified writing coach, an #AmWriting Blueprint Challenge coach, a writer, a creative coach and many other things—but for our purposes, the author of Wrangling the Doubt Monster—a delightful book that you can open on any page for help wrangling your own doubts into something that you can live with, in the vein of Steven Pressfield’s The War of Art or Gretchen Rubin’s Outer Order, Inner Calm. In this episode we talk—what else?—doubt monsters, declaring ourselves as writers and all the ways we live with our self-doubt and write anyway.

Links from the Pod

Bancroft Press

Amywrites.live

Persephone Books

The Making of a Marchioness, Frances Hodgson Burnett

Beacon Street Books

KJ’s #AmReading Substack

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Consider the Sweep of Your Whole Writing Career Feb 07, 2025

One of the things I think we do well with on this podcast is addressing the long game of writing. It’s not just about writing a good book or pitching one or selling one, but about the work of doing it over and over again, of succeeding and failing, of PERSISTING. That’s why I love this conversation with Tiffany Yates Martin, who is an author herself under the penname, Phoebe Fox, but who also for 30 years has been a developmental editor working with major publishers and New York Times, Washington Post, and USA Today bestselling and award-winning authors. She is a respected leader in the writing education field and my friend and colleague. Her new book, The Intuitive Author: How to Grow and Sustain a Happier Writing Career addresses the long sweep of a writing career. And I think there's a lot for all of us to learn from this book and this conversation.

You can find Tiffany via her website, on Instagram at @tiffanyyatesmartin, or check out her books Intuitive Editing and The Intuitive Author.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Social Media: What Happens Now? Jan 31, 2025

“I put my effort into building trust, showing up, and being present for people who have opted into my universe.” A slight paraphrase of Jennie Nash

On the day we recorded this episode, no one really knew what was going to happen to TikTok (Jess thinks it’s going away, everyone else doubts her) and Sarina was attempting to manage all the emails from people asking her why she was promoting businesses on The Place Formerly Known as Twitter (she wasn’t, she quit that app and someone promptly squatted on her name, pretended to be her and began promoting for-profit businesses). What do we do when we can’t trust the people in our social media circles to be who they say they are and what is the future of social media as a whole? We discuss these and many other questions.

Things we talk about:

“I’d rather be taken than be hard” Sarina quoted this via “a pastor,” and search as I may, I can’t find an attribution. We discuss the sentiment.

The OpEd Project founded by Katie Orenstein

Mighty Networks

I called it the “red square app” but it’s actually the Red Note app or “Xiaohongshu” and as of this writing, is still the top free app in the Apple store. Here’s an explainer on the app from NPR.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Treat your writing like a business in 2025 Jan 24, 2025

I’m Sarina, and I’m a business nerd.

Hi, my name is Sarina, and I’m a business nerd. I was born this way. I can’t help it. I realize that not everyone gets excited about spreadsheets, but if you have any writerly income at all, I’m begging you to make 2025 the year you treat your writing as a business. There are actually two reasons to do this:

* First of all it’s centering. Treating your writing as a grownup activity helps you frame your goal-setting around writing. It holds you accountable to your goals

* Secondly, and more practically, it makes tax time is so much easier, and it might save you money

First, let’s do a little primer on how writerly income affects your taxes. Unlike a job, which sends you a W2 in January, writers are technically self-employed. In fact, the first time someone pays you for a book or an article, you have just become an entrepreneur.

So, congratulations on your promotion from artist to businessperson. Let’s go over what that means for you. I must offer a disclaimer here: I’m not a tax professional and I’m not your tax professional, so please ask an accountant in your state if you have actionable questions.

Most writers treat themselves as sole proprietors for tax purposes. That means you’re doing business as yourself, and you haven’t taken the additional step of forming a separate taxable entity. For the purposes of today’s episode, let’s assume that you’re in this category.

Depending on the dollar amount—and the professionalism of the people who paid you—a 1099 tax form may appear in your mailbox in January of next year. That 1099 will also be reported to the IRS, who will expect you to report it on your taxes. When done correctly, this income shows up on your schedule C.

It’s possible to deposit your writing income in your regular checking account, and many people do. But what if we assume that your writing business will continue to grow in volume and complexity? Then it’s time to consider treating your writing as a business in 2025.

The first way to do that is to open a second checking account. My tiny bank in New Hampshire offers this kind of account for free. Opening it was as easy as going into the branch and explaining that I wanted an account for my sole proprietorship. This is the where you’ll deposit any earnings you make as a writer.

The second useful account is an extra credit card that only gets used for business purposes. If you have any expenses during the writing year, they all belong on this card. Such as:

* Substacks you pay for to help further your writing career. (See what I did there?)

* Websites you join to assist in your work

* Transportation to writing-related conferences and research

* Printed materials you purchase for research

* Stock photography

* Your Canva subscription, etc

Every one of these things is a business expense. Any money you spend in service to your writing career is deductible from the income you made from your writing. When you’re just getting started, the legitimate expenses might well exceed your income. This all gets netted out on Schedule C of your 1040.

If you have this setup, you won’t have to scramble to figure out your business income and deductions at tax time. Your writing bank and credit card statements will tell the whole story.

Furthermore, if you’re self-published, the business bank account provides an added layer of security. In my publishing business, I have had to provide my banking details to countless publishing platforms. I like knowing that my banking information is separated from my family’s money.

This is also true of your social security number. There’s a fix for this, though. To avoid sharing your social security number with publishers and publishing platforms, all you have to do is request an EIN, or employer identification number from the IRS. It’s simple, it takes only minutes, and I’ll put the link in the show notes.

And there you have it. Your homework assignments are ready—you’re opening a couple of accounts and requesting an EIN from the IRS. It’s not the sexiest part of your writer journey, but don’t let that stop you.

Until next week, writers, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Links!

Your EIN can be attained here: https://sa.www4.irs.gov/modiein/individual/index.jsp

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Making of a Workbook Jan 17, 2025

Hi #AmWriters, Jess here. I’ve been wanting to do an episode on workbooks forever - on any form of companion text that pairs with nonfiction books, really. How do you propose them, write them, format them? You know me, I like the granular details. Fortunately, Ned Johnson and Dr. William Stixrud are publishing The Seven Principles for Raising a Self-Driven Child in March, and Ned was willing to come on the podcast and teach me all about the nuts and bolts of putting a workbook out into the world.

This episode truly flattened my learning curve, and I hope it does the same for you.

People and things we talked about in this episode:

William Stixrud

Katie Hurley and A Year of Positive Thinking for Teens

Tina Payne Bryson, The Whole-Brain Child and Bottom Line for Baby

StrengthsFinder2.0

TriMetrix

Moo.com

Can you make custom post-it notes? Yes, yes you can.

The Disengaged Teen by Rebecca Winthrop and Jenny Anderson

LAST Last Call: Join the Winter 2025 Blueprint Challenge

If you have big goals for 2025 that include writing, finishing or revising a book, you’ll want to join us for the Winter 2025 Blueprint Challenge.

We started January 5, but it’s JUST not too late to jump in. We’ll be walking Blueprinters through the 14 steps of the Blueprint over 10 weeks. Some of the steps are very short and we combined them into one episode—and the first step is indeed on the shorter side, so you still have time to catch up if you subscribe now.

Every episode speaks to fiction writers, memoir writers, and nonfiction writers. There are workbooks, and you will get a link to the digital download of the Blueprint book of your choice.

We’ll also be hosting weekly AMAs (ask me anything), write-alongs, and Zoom meet-ups with coaches—and KJ will be writing her own Blueprint, and Jennie will be coaching her through it in weekly episodes. For more about the challenge, check out these past posts:

* What the Blueprint is and why Jennie made it

* Introducing the winter book coach hosts

* Overcoming Pantsing Pitfalls: How the Blueprint Method Can Save Your Story

* The Blueprint is the Solution for Time-Strapped Writers

* How to Use a Blueprint for Revision

* Befriending the Blueprint

If you finish your Blueprint during the Challenge, you will be eligible to win a review from either Jennie or KJ. (If you missed the #AmWriting Success Story about the writer who won the Blueprint Sprint grand prize in 2022, give it a listen. It’s very inspiring! It’s right HERE.)

It’s going to be such a good time and we’d love to have you join us!

The Blueprint Challenge is for Supporters only—10 weeks to plan the book you want to write instead of 90K words figuring it out. You in?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

A People Pleaser Learns to Write the Book She Wants to Write Jan 10, 2025

Essay collections—readers love them, but publishers and editors are often unconvinced. Jennie and KJ talk to Amy Wilson about getting that contract, finding the through line and writing a book about pleasing people while also remembering to please yourself.

Links from the pod

Mary Karr The Art of Memoir

Wendi Aarons

Listen to Your Mother (Essay performances for Mother’s Day)

Amy’s first book: When Did I Get Like This?

Zibby Owens, Zibby Books

Ina Garten

What Fresh Hell (Amy’s podcast)

Happy to Help: Adventures of a People Pleaser, Amy Wilson

#AmReading

Jennie: Be Ready when the Luck Happens, Ina Garten

KJ: Meditations for Mortals, Oliver Burkeman

Reasons Not to Worry, Brigid Delaney

Amy: Shakespeare: The Man Who Pays the Rent, Judi Dench

Last Call: Join the Winter 2025 Blueprint Challenge

If you have big goals for 2025 that include writing, finishing or revising a book, you’ll want to join us for the Winter 2025 Blueprint Challenge.

Every episode speaks to fiction writers, memoir writers, and nonfiction writers. There are workbooks, and you will get a link to the digital download of the Blueprint book of your choice.

* What the Blueprint is and why Jennie made it

* Introducing the winter book coach hosts

* Overcoming Pantsing Pitfalls: How the Blueprint Method Can Save Your Story

* The Blueprint is the Solution for Time-Strapped Writers

* How to Use a Blueprint for Revision

* Befriending the Blueprint

It’s going to be such a good time and we’d love to have you join us!

The Blueprint Challenge is for Supporters only—10 weeks to plan the book you want to write instead of 90K words figuring it out. You in?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

#AmWriting podcast bonus episode with Jess Jan 05, 2025

Hi #AmWriters and subscribers to Jess’ content, Jess here, looking out my office window over a beautiful, snowy Vermont Sunday and thinking of you. We do these things called “Lahey Cafe” days in the Lahey household and we have one coming up this afternoon. Back when my husband and I were in graduate school and never got to spend time together away from the books, we would go to cafes (Caribou Coffee on Main Street in Chapel Hill, NC was our favorite) and spend time together while studying. We kept this practice up once we had kids and now our daughter (a college student) asks for them regularly when she has essays to write or studying to do at home. Today, I’m serving up a King Arthur chocolate babka I baked yesterday, the wood stove is burning, and we will all sit at the dining room table with tea and coffee and chocolate-stained fingers while we work on our respective projects. I’m still slogging away on a book proposal, so that’s my task at the Lahey cafe.

Before I leave for the cafe, however, I wanted to offer up a bonus episode of the #AmWriting podcast for you. Last week, for the final AMA of the year, I invited EVERYONE, not just subscribers, to ask me anything, and boy, they did. I love these AMAs because they get at the heart of our most basic intent when we started this podcast over four hundred episodes, which was to flatten the learning curve for writers. If we, or someone we interview, have learned something through a mistake or stumbled upon something useful, why make someone else repeat the effort. Also, AMAs are a throwback to my career as a teacher, which I miss very much.

So enjoy the podcast version of last week’s AMA as well as some pen recommendations recommendations for left-handed writers from Bungu (not sponsored, I’m just obsessed with their products and their TikTok, @bungustore). I’ve linked the pens here:

Zebra Sarasa Dry is their top choice, apparently because the ink dries so fast

Uni Power Tank (pressurized ink!)

Uni Jetstream

Pento Energel

It’s a working weekend, so I’m off to work on some annoying administrative details of my book proposal and play with my new kitten, Lila.

Thanks for reading #AmWriting! This post is public so feel free to share it.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Using the Blueprint for Revision Jan 03, 2025

This episode is about a #amwriting win!

Meghan P. Browne wrote to us a while ago to share her happy news: her debut middle-grade novel that she revised in the Blueprint Challenge of 2022 and that we reviewed in one of our First pages episodes had just gone under contract! Welcome to Heaven was acquired by Liz Szabla at Feiwel & Friends (Macmillan), and publication is scheduled for Spring 2026.

Meghan shared that this manuscript was destined for the drawer if it hadn’t been for the 2022 Blueprint Challenge. In this episode we discuss what the challenge helped her to do.

When she was finished with the revision, she decided to submit for our First Pages episode. “The First Pages submission leap was the test I needed to see if I cared enough to push through to the finish line,” she says. She submitted it, we reviewed it, and she tweaked the first page according to our response. The Booklab episode where we reviewed her first page can be found here: Redacted Kitty-Cat and Welcome to Heaven

If you’re a paid supporter and would like to submit a page for the First Pages review, fill out the form HERE. Include your title, genre and first 350 words. We’ll let you know if it’s been chosen and when to expect your episode to drop.

We’re just thrilled for Meghan and so grateful at the tiny part we played in helping her bring her book to life.

You can find Meghan at meghanpbrowne.com and check out her other books, including The Bees of Notre-Dame.

Join the Blueprint Challenge Next Week

If you have big goals for 2025 that include writing, finishing or revising a book, you’ll want to join us for the Winter 2025 Blueprint Challenge.

Starting January 5, we’ll be walking you through the 14 steps of the Blueprint over 10 weeks. Some of the steps are very short and we combined them into one episode.

Every episode speaks to fiction writers, memoir writers, and nonfiction writers. There are workbooks, and you will get a link to the digital download of the Blueprint book of your choice.

* What the Blueprint is and why Jennie made it

* Introducing the winter book coach hosts

* Overcoming Pantsing Pitfalls: How the Blueprint Method Can Save Your Story

It’s going to be such a good time and we’d love to have you join us!

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

What's your word for 2025? We review 2024 goals and set up 2025 in Episode 428 Dec 27, 2024

We cover last years’ goals, and which of us feel great and which feel… less great. (And the audio is also less great, because 3 of us gathered in our local library and the acoustics/HVAC system noise were less than ideal.)

We end up talking about the ways we feel we need to be as women (supported by some great men) in the coming year and years, the somewhat surprising bro-commentary some of us get around our work, and how we feel like sticking together is going to be the key to maintaining our sense of self in 2025.

It got pretty deep. Writer goals, sure, we have those. But we have more.

We also reviewed our Words of the Year, then announce this year’s. I guess I should make that a big reveal? But I just don’t have it in me, so here we go:

KJ: Inner Compass (which tells me that 2 words is FINE)

Jennie: Teflon (you’ll love the discussion around this one)

Sarah: Presence (she’s reserving the right to refine this)

Jess: Growth (and a surprising announcement about her return to student life! There, there’s your cliff-hanger-go listen.)

Links to things we discuss:

Pacemaker app

Five Year Lie audiobook

Blueprint for a Book Winter Challenge

Submit for First Pages Booklab!

What’s your word for 2025 going to be? We love discussing and brainstorming words, so lay it on us in the comments.

If you have big goals for 2025 that include writing, finishing or revising a book, you’ll want to join us for the Winter 2025 Blueprint Challenge.

Starting January 5, we’ll be walking you through the 14 steps of the Blueprint over 10 weeks. Some of the steps are very short and we combined them into one episode.

Every episode speaks to fiction writers, memoir writers, and nonfiction writers. There are workbooks, and you will get a link to the digital download of the Blueprint book of your choice.

* What the Blueprint is and why Jennie made it

* Introducing the winter book coach hosts

* Overcoming Pantsing Pitfalls: How the Blueprint Method Can Save Your Story

It’s going to be such a good time and we’d love to have you join us! Plus, we have a sale on annual memberships until December 31, 2024 only—save 25% if you decide you’re in now.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

From #FamilyStory to Fiction Dec 20, 2024

Today, I'm so excited to talk to my friend, Rosa Kwon Easton, about her debut novel, White Mulberry.

Rosa holds a very special place in my heart and my history because she was at the first ever workshop where I taught my Blueprint framework, which is a method of inquiry for getting a book out of your head and onto the page before you start to write. At that time, Rosa thought that she was writing a true story about three generations in her family. She was calling it a memoir. And now ten years later, that story is being published as a novel. In this discussion, we talk about that long development process and the profound switch from writing a true story to writing fiction and how Rosa navigated the whole thing.Find Rosa at: rosakwoneaston.com, @rosakwoneaston on Instagram, or at one of her upcoming events.

Find out more about Jennie Nash’s Blueprint for a Book method here.

Announcing the #AmWriting Blueprint Winter Challenge—bigger and better and more interactive than any we’ve done before.

The Blueprint method will be effective for you if:

* You have a new idea for a novel, a memoir, or a nonfiction book you want to pin to the page.

* You are stuck somewhere in the middle of a novel, a memoir, or a nonfiction book and can’t figure out how to get unstuck.

* You are planning to revise a novel, a memoir, or a nonfiction book and feel overwhelmed by the enormity of the task.

In the challenge you’ll get 10 podcast episodes on the Blueprint steps, five Author Accelerator certified book coaches who will be answering your questions in live sessions and in our chat for 10 weeks (+ your hosts will be joining in on that, too), write-along sessions, a workbook to guide you, free digital downloads of Jennie’s Blueprint book, and the chance to win a full Blueprint review from Jennie or KJ at the end.

#AmWriting paid subscribers have the chance to sign up for all this NOW—and to help you out, we’re offering a December sale on membership. The offer will end 12/31/24—so give 2025 you a gift and sign up now!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Introducing the Winter Blueprint Challenge Coaches Dec 18, 2024

Do The Blueprint With Us This Winter!

Starting January 5, we’ll be walking you through the 14 steps of the Blueprint over 10 weeks. Some of the steps are very short and we combined them into one episode.

Every episode speaks to fiction writers, memoir writers, and nonfiction writers. There are workbooks, and you will get a link to the digital download of the Blueprint book of your choice.

We’ll also be hosting weekly AMAs (ask me anything), write-alongs, and Zoom meet-ups with coaches—and KJ will be writing her own Blueprint, and I’ll be coaching her through it in weekly episodes.

If you finish your Blueprint during the Challenge, you will be eligible to win a review from either me or KJ. (If you missed the #AmWriting Success Story about the writer who won the Blueprint Sprint grand prize in 2022, give it a listen. It’s very inspiring! It’s right HERE.)

It’s going to be such a good time and we’d love to have you join us! Plus, we have a sale on annual memberships until December 31, 2024 only—save 25% if you decide you’re in now.

Our Author Accelerator Certified Coach hosts for the Winter Blueprint challenge are:

Sabrina Estudillo Butler

As the founder of Unpolished Words, I’m a book coach and editor for ambitious BIPOC writers. I help them figure out where to start and what to do next so they can plan and write the book they can’t stop thinking about. My mission is to add more color to the bookshelves by helping Black + Brown writers get clear on their ideas and confident in their writing skills so they can share their experiences, expertise, and stories with the world.

My vision: Books by us are as widely known, accessible, and revered as the “classics.”

I am a nerdy, intuitive, creative soul with a notebook obsession that is kind of getting out of hand. (Okay, it was out of hand when I had two full boxes of journals during our last move.) I’m also a professional nap-taker, a recovering hot cheetos puffs addict, and I’ve watched Parks and Rec so many times I can listen to it like a podcast and know exactly what’s going on. And after a 7-year career as a licensed architect (it was a vibe, just not the one for me), I returned to my first love: books. I got certified in Nonfiction and Fiction Book Coaching through Author Accelerator, and I’ve been living the dream ever since.

I intentionally work with mostly BIPOC because I know there are so many of us who have s**t to say, and there aren’t a whole lot of people helping us get it said. So, I made my writers’ (and my own) expression my job. Three years later, it’s still the best job in the world. More at www.unpolishedwords.com.

Sara Gentry is a math Ph.D. turned Author Accelerator certified book coach. As a lifelong problem solver, she knows the power of finding the right solution. Now she uses her analytical brain to provide writers with strategic next steps and straightforward feedback so they can finish writing books they love. Sara works with fiction, nonfiction, and memoir writers in one-to-one coaching and novel writers in her yearlong group coaching program, Novel Resolution. She gives back to the writing community by hosting the free annual events KidLit Summer Camp and Novel Kickoff. You can connect with her through her website solutionsforwriters.com or on Instagram, Threads, and Twitter(X) with the handle writewithsara.

Stuart Wakefield

With 26 years of experience in theatre, broadcast media, and coaching, I've cultivated a deep understanding of storytelling and its powerful narrative structures. My journey began with a childhood fascination for comic books, TV, and movies, which blossomed into a lifelong dedication to the art of storytelling.

My academic and professional pursuits, including an MA in Professional Writing, underscore my commitment to mastering the craft. My own writing achievements, such as my debut novel "Body of Water" being long-listed for the Polari First Book Prize and "Behind the Seams" reaching the semifinals of the 2021 BookLife Fiction Prize Contest, reflect my understanding of what it takes to create compelling narratives. The upcoming airing of my first TV show on the UK's Channel 4 marks another milestone in my diverse storytelling career.

This eclectic background sparked my interest in coaching. Known for feedback that resonates and enlightens, I've been the go-to person for manuscript reviews throughout my education and career. As an Author Accelerator Certified Book Coach, I bring a unique blend of personal experience, professional expertise, and genuine passion for storytelling. My goal is to guide aspiring writers in crafting narratives that are not only vibrant and compelling but also deeply meaningful. Of my client's published books, Daughter of the Seven Hills, by Margaret McNellis, is out now.

More at www.thebookcoach.co

Stuart’s podcast with Jennie can be found at Master Fiction Writing

Amy L. Bernstein runs Wordfirst Book Coaching Services, which supports aspiring and experienced nonfiction authors as they develop long-form projects from the raw-idea stage to polished, market-ready book proposals, and points in between. Amy’s client base includes an eclectic group of authors, including a microbiologist, a middle-school educator, and a TV journalist. She also works selectively on memoir projects that blend the personal and professional.

Amy’s affinity (and affection) for nonfiction stems from a combined three decades of experience as a print and public radio journalist as well as senior communications roles with detail-oriented nonprofit organizations and state and federal government agencies, where Amy handled everything from drafting Congressional testimony to writing speeches for top government officials.

Amy is also the author of several novels and plays, as well as a forthcoming nonfiction book, Wrangling the Doubt Monster: Fighting Fears, Finding Inspiration, which is designed to inspire and encourage writers and all creative people struggling with self-doubt.

Amy’s new book for writers is Wrangling the Doubt Monster: Fighting Fears, Finding Inspiration

More at wordfirstbookcoach.com or On Substack:

Candace Coakley is a book coach, developmental editor, and mindfulness mentor passionate about helping others embrace the creative process and share their wisdom through writing. With twenty-five years of writing and teaching experience, she founded Candace Coakley Editorial Solutions to help writers clarify their ideas and bring their stories to life. As an Author Accelerator-certified book coach in fiction, nonfiction, and memoir, Candace uses Blueprint for a Book to help writers get to the heart of their stories. She loves helping writers craft authentic, empowered manuscripts and achieve their writing and publishing goals. Her range of services includes all steps of the process, from idea generation to publication and beyond. Her clients have published through various traditional, hybrid, and self-publishing routes.

Her lifelong meditation practice is the secret to her sanity and a skill she loves to share with others. She is a graduate of the Mindfulness Mentor Training and has studied with Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach. She is certified in Transcendental Meditation (TM) and Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR). She is not afraid of helping writers explore dark places and is certified in trauma-sensitive mindfulness. She is also a Reiki practitioner and uses the power of energy healing in all areas of her life. In her spare time, she creates art in her basement art studio.

Candace taught nonprofit communications and event management at Boston University and Emerson College and holds an undergraduate degree in Communications from Boston College and an M.A. in Business Organization from Emerson College. She specializes in coaching memoir, and leads workshops and retreats on integrating mindfulness into writing. A graduate of Grub Street’s Memoir Incubator, she has written a memoir about prosecuting and convicting a serial rapist through DNA evidence, and her work-in-progress concerns the power of hope in healing from trauma. She lives north of Boston with her family and rescue dog, Hope. For more info, please visit www.candacecoakley.com or subscribe to her substack newsletter for creative inspiration.

All coaches can be reached by email:

Sara Gentry – sara@solutionsforwriters.com

Candace Coakley – cc@candacecoakley.com

Sabrina Butler – heythere@unpolishedwords.com

Stuart Wakefield – stuart@thebookcoach.co

Amy Bernstein – info@wordfirstbookcoach.com.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 424: How a Blueprint Can Keep Your Book on Course Dec 06, 2024

Regular listeners will recognize the Blueprint for a Book—a method of inquiry Jennie Nash developed to lay a strong foundation for books in any genre that’s not about the craft of writing or building an author platform or any of the steps that come later in the writing life. It’s about understanding what you are doing and why you are doing it so that you can have clarity and confidence.

Writer Allison Hammer is a Blueprint stan—she’s used it for years, again and again, often more than once on any given book (KJ seconds that one). We talk about why she adores the method, how she tweaks it (and why Jennie made it so strict in the first place.

You can, like Allison, work through the Blueprint steps on your own—but with the Blueprint for a Book Winter Challenge coming up, you don’t have to!

We’re going to be sharing more details about the Blueprint Winter Challenge in the coming days, but here’s a little on what it looks like: we have 10 podcast episodes on the Blueprint steps, five Author Accelerator certified book coaches who will be answering your questions in live sessions and in our chat for 10 weeks (+ your hosts will be joining in on that, too), write-along sessions, a workbook to guide you, free digital downloads of my Blueprint book, and the chance to win a full Blueprint review from Jennie or KJ at the end.

#AmWriting paid subscribers will have the chance to sign up for all this later this month—and to help you out, we’re offering a December sale on membership. The offer will end 12/31/24—so give 2025 you a gift and sign up now!

Links from the episode:

Episode 409: From Women’s Fiction to Romance in 30 Days with Ali Brady

Find Alison at: www.alisonhammer.com, @thishammer on Instagram, or check out her cowritten works as Ali Brady on IG @alibradybooks

Find out more about Jennie Nash’s Blueprint for a Book method here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

#Writer Gift Extravaganza Nov 29, 2024

Jess here, hosting my entire extended family for the holiday weekend and sending love to you and yours. Enjoy this #WriterGift flashback!

It’s the gifts episode! Here are the links you’re looking for:

KJ:

Redbubble ❄️ Stamp blocks ❄️ Stamp blanks and stencils ❄️ Frixion Pens ❄️ Leuchterm planner

Jess:

Sarina’s Socks ❄️ Half Broke by Ginger Gaffney (for KJ, but Jess loved it, too!) ❄️ Fillion planner cover by Little Mountain Bindery ❄️ Jess’s favorite sticky tabs ❄️ Pens by Schneider ❄️ Sarina’s stamp with the kinda-sorta True North Series three pine tree logo ❄️ The “Begin” mug Jess wants a case of.

Sarina:

Hedgehog Pencil Holder ❄️ Post-its that fit over planner months ❄️ Corkicle (it doesn’t come with the sticker, sorry…)

#AmReading

Jess: Scarcity: The New Science of Having Less and How It Defines Our Lives by Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir

KJ: The Other Bennet Sister by Janice Hadlow

Sarina: The Girl with Stars in Her Eyes by Xio Axelrod

Zowie! Thanks for listening. If you want to check out our last gift episodes (and guides), click the years: 2019 2018 2017.

If you’ve got other ideas we should know about, share them in the #AmWriting Facebook group.

And if you’d like to subscribe to the shownotes email or support the podcast, click the button.

To give a subscription as a gift, click THIS button!

Big news, #AmWriters: our guided Blueprint for a Book Challenge was such a hit this past summer that we're going to run it again in January! Plus, we're adding even more interactive elements so you can connect with other writers.

It’s a great way to start or refine a book idea, get some professional guidance from our Author Accelerator coaches, and stay motivated to do the hard work of thinking before you write.

Whether you're writing fiction, nonfiction or memoir - this challenge could be just the thing you need. We will be launching in early January, so stay tuned to these podcasts for all the details, check the show notes, and make sure that you are a supporter of the #AmWriting Podcast, so that when it comes to January, you'll be ready to go.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

From Substack Serial to Trad Novel with... Nov 22, 2024

It is of course the inimitable, the unconquerable, the inexhaustible Jo Piazza, all of whose adjectives require me to use spell check. I am a long time fan of Jo, and she’s been on the pod before—see also Episode 393, I Want to Sell Books, But I’m Also Writing What I Want to Write. She is the author of, most recently, The Sicilian Inheritance and coming soon, Everyone Is Lying to You, which started out as a serial in her weekly email/Substack, Over the Influence. She’s also the host of a great podcast, Under the Influence.

As far as I know she’s the first person to pull off this feat. She probably isn’t, but we’re going to roll with it as a working theory. This is a great convo, and you will undoubtedly leave inspired, as I was, to write your own serial. (I probably won’t but I WAS inspired.)

Join Jo’s Substack and vote on the cover HERE.

#AmReading

Jo:

The Displacements, Bruce Holsinger (author of The Gifted School)

Nightwatching, Tracy Sierra

Here One Moment, Liane Moriarty

KJ:

I’m Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself, Glynnis MacNicol

The Wedding People, Alison Espach

Jo’s email/Substack Over the Influence

It’s a great way to start or refine a book idea, get some professional guidance from our Author Accelerator coaches, and stay motivated to do the hard work of thinking before you write.

#AmWriting is made possible by our “stickers” - readers who financially support the Podcast. As a thank you, Stickers get access to bonus content - like our Blueprint for a Book Challenge. To receive these posts and support the Podcast, please consider becoming a paid subscriber.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

#AnxietyInducing. A Candid Discussion on A.I. Nov 15, 2024

The Anxiety is Real

You can’t swing a Blackwing pencil without hearing another creator worrying about generative A.I. And we get it—the ubiquity of generative A.I. tools has soared over the last two years. In this episode we aim to take a deep breath and discuss the topic from a candid but calm position: why authors are worried, why we should be worried and what to do about it (besides anxious posts on social media.)

Things to freak out about: a Two Part List

In service to our measured discussion, we lay a bit of background. Sarina tells us why The Authors Guild is suing OpenAI, and why you should join the Authors Guild.

Then we mine two different veins of anxiety:

* Column I: Billion dollar AI tools stole our intellectual property to train their models, and…

* Column II: AI might take my job.

We delve into both these concerns, discussing ongoing litigation, the potential for licensing content to AI companies, and more. We also discuss how AI tools are affecting other parts of the publishing industry (such as audio book narration) and the pervasiveness of generative AI in our everyday lives.

#AmReading

KJ: The Paradise Problem, Christina Lauren

Jess: The Widow on Dwyer Court, Lisa Kusel

Sarina: Nora Goes Off Script, Annabel Monaghan

The Love Hypothesis, Ali Hazelwood

Hey readers—KJ here. This episode of #AmWriting is brought to you by my latest, Playing the Witch Card. I wrote this at a moment when I needed more magic in my life—but it turned out to be a book about how until we know who we are and what makes us happy, even magic doesn’t help. My main character, Flair, is a total control freak who fears the chaos created by her family deck of Tarot cards and the cookies it inspires her to make until she decides that she can harness their power to control the world and people around her—but that’s not what the cards are for at all. I was inspired by what I see as the real magic of Tarot cards—and tea leaves and palm reading and every form of oracle: they help us to see and understand our own stories. As someone for whom stories are pretty much everything, I love that. You can buy Playing the Witch Card on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop.org and my local indie—and I hope you’ll love it too.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

#Resilience Over the Long Haul Nov 08, 2024

Today we’re talking about the need for a writer to be resilient over the long haul of a career and my guest is A.S. King

A.S. King has been called “One of the best Y.A. writers working today” by The New York Times Book Review and is one of YA fiction's most decorated. She is the only two-time winner of the American Library Association's Michael L. Printz Award (2020 for Digand 2024 for The Collectors) and has won the LA Times Book Prize for Ask the Passengers. In 2022, King received the ALA's Margaret A. Edwards Award for her lifetime achievement to YA literature and 2023, she accepted the ALAN Award for "artistry, courage and outstanding contributions to YA literature."

Amy – which is her real name – has taught for years in MFA programs and is working on her PhD in creative literature

I wanted to talk to Amy because I heard from a mutual friend – Caroline Leavitt – that Amy’s publisher had made a change to her promotional team just weeks before the launch of her newest book, Pick the Lock, which one reviewer described as "a punk opera, a primal scream, and a portrait of a family buried in lies."

Many of our listeners are trying to get their foot in the door with their first book, or to get a career off the ground with their second or third and here is someone who has written 15 books, who is at the top of her game, and who still has things like this happen – which is to say things that go wrong, things that don’t go her way.

I thought a conversation about what it feels like at this stage in a career would be illuminating – and was I sure right. Let’s get to it.Find A.S. King at AS-King.com

Heads up!

Join me—KJ—for Novelmber, which is very hard to pronounce but is my word for reclaiming my writing space in November. Think NaNoWriMo, our version—daily challenges and stretch goals, formatted by you, for you.

There will be write-alongs, posts, a massive Google spreadsheet for sharing goals and updating progress, thoughts on how hard this is, and more than you want to know about why I need this regroup so badly. All writers, every genre, welcome.

This is sign-up only—I don’t plan to spam the whole #AmWriting community with my wails of writerly distress daily for an entire month—but it’s also for everyone who wants in. I hope you’ll join me—I don’t want to go this alone.

Don’t worry, signing up is simple! Here’s how:

Click here to go to your #AmWriting account, and when you see this screen, toggle “Novelmber” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

THAT’S IT!

Once you set that up, you’ll get all future Novelmber emails. Any audio or video will show up in those, along with write-along schedules.

You’ll also want to add yourself to the Google Sheet where we’ll all record our overall goal, day’s goals, daily progress and what we’re feeling. I’ve started it off.Join me, help me, let’s make Novelmber WORK!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Longest, Most Public MFA Ever Nov 01, 2024

I couldn’t resist the subtitle, kids, sorry. It’s not that shocking—but Tim’s journey was definitely only for the bold.

I’ve known Tim Grahl—or known of him—for more than a decade. I watched him help writers like Dan Pink launch their non-fiction books onto the best seller list, and devoured and followed his excellent advice about launching my own books (which you can find here at booklaunch.com). Then I watched—or rather, listened—as he pivoted into the world of fiction, enlisting editor Shaun Coyne to join him on a podcast and help him use Coyne’s Storygrid method to work on what eventually, after many revisions and a whole lot of failing in public, became Tim’s first novel, The Threshing. At the same time, he and Shaun were building Storygrid into what’s not just a business, but a huge community of writers and editors. He’s just published his second novel, The Shithead, a very different book from the first… I call it The Firm meets The Alchemist; Tim prefers Fleishman Is In Trouble meets Faust. Both work.

We talk Tim’s sideways journey into fiction, and then we talk craft—in particular, how to learn what you don’t know, the myth of the lone writer in a cabin and the importance of feedback and then we dig into a passionate discussion of theme.

You can check out The Shithead here.

Links from the pod

Booklaunch.com

Storygrid

Shaun Coyne’s book, Storygrid

The Prince of Tides, Pat Conroy

The Shadow of the Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafon

The Accidental Tourist, Breathing Lessons by Anne Tyler

(KJ also mentions Redhead by the Side of the Road)

The Husband’s Secret, What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty

Heads up! This is probably the only time you’ll see this.

Don’t worry, signing up is simple! Here’s how:

Click here to go to your #AmWriting account, and when you see this screen, toggle “Novelmber” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

THAT’S IT!

Once you set that up, you’ll get all future Novelmber emails. Any audio or video will show up in those, along with write-along schedules.

You’ll also want to add yourself to the Google Sheet where we’ll all record our overall goal, day’s goals, daily progress and what we’re feeling. I’ve started it off.

Join me for the first write-alongs HERE. (That’s a link to my Zoom Room.) I’ll be sitting there:

Friday, November 1 10:30-12:30 (ALL TIMES EST)

Tuesday, November 5, 2:00-4:00

Friday, November 8, 9:00-11:00

More times coming. Join me, help me, let’s make Novelmber WORK!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep. 419 What's a "Comp?" Oct 25, 2024

Hi all! Jess here. When I wrote my first book proposal (for The Gift of Failure), I had a foggy idea of what a “comp” was. A book just like the book you want to publish, right? Not exactly. Comps are a really important part of pitching any book - nonfiction or fiction - because it helps an editor understand your vision for the book and consequently, what the publishing house’s vision for the book could be. What does the market for this book look like? Who is on the shelf already? Why is this book similar or different?

Like I said, an art.

Come with me while I explore the parameters for comps and help you write a better “Comparable Titles” section for your next book proposal.

I use the comp section from the proposal for The Gift of Failure to discuss comps in this episode, so here’s what the formatting looks like in that document:

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus Episode: Jess on Constructive Criticism and Pulling Out of an On-Stage Death Spiral Oct 24, 2024

About once a season, I have a speaking experience that doesn’t go exactly the way I want it to, but I’ve learned how to keep these experiences (and the negative feedback that can result) from keeping me awake at night while fueling positive change. Well, that once-a-season occurrence happened earlier this fall, and it felt awful. I usually text Tim or KJ and Sarina with, “well, that felt off” and they reassure me that the audience probably did not notice, and sometimes - sometimes - that’s true. Whether the audience noticed or not, I did, and I need to walk off stage feeling like I nailed it, that I reached people, planted seeds for positive change, and made the best use of the audience’s (and my) time, not to mention the client’s investment of time and money.

This episode contains advice on how to prepare for events and catch potential mistakes before they happen, redirect yourself on stage when you feel things getting out of control or heading in the wrong direction, and some productive ways to cope with and respond to negative feedback.

No matter how good you are, no matter how experienced you are, you will have bad days on stage. I hope my experience with failure flattens your learning curve.

Unlike the photo at the top of this post, this picture is of me in mid-death spiral. This was almost ten years ago but I remember the event and the nausea vividly. I walked off stage feeling as if I’d squandered an incredible audience and wasted their time, but I keep this picture to remind me of how far I’ve come and why I have to keep improving.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

"I knew you COULD revise it. I wasn't sure you WOULD." Oct 18, 2024

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit amwriting.substack.com

“As I said in my earlier email, you have so much to work with here. First off, your premise is gold. Easy to summarize, clear conflict, big stakes. I’m envious! When you’re ready, agents are going to sit up and take notice—which is all the more reason to have a rock solid thing to give them when they ask (and they will ask—don’t send a single query until you have a full, completed, polished manuscript ready to press “send” on, because I think you will get requests immediately).”

That’s from my October 2021 developmental edit* for guest Erin Quinn-Kong. This month, Hate Follow is out from William Morrow & Company—because Erin knocked the revision out of the park. In this episode, we dig into what it felt like to get those (tough love) notes, how she worked with them, querying and the big moments that came next. You’re going to love it—PLUS, Erin has agreed to let us share the full 6 page edit letter with supporters who purchase a copy of Hate Follow in any format and send us their receipt. (Details on how to do that below.)

As I tell Erin in the pod, I knew from what was on the page (and from her journalism experience) that she COULD do this revision. It wasn’t an easy lift, though. Not every one would have wanted this kind of edit or been willing to work with it. (Honestly, I’m sitting on one RIGHT NOW and not sure I can stomach what it needs to get it there.) But Erin did it—with amazing results. Here’s a little more from the letter:

“I have no doubt that you can do it, either. Even though this is still in draft form, I didn’t want to put it down, especially in the more polished first half. (I knew what I was getting! That’s not a criticism of the less finished section. It’s in the perfect place for this stage of the process.) I wanted to know what would happen, and that is so much of the battle won right there. There’s great conflict and drive in these pages.

And fundamentally your writing is really excellent. In the sections that are more complete, you strike a good balance between inner dialogue and action, you move the story, your chapters end in good places. There’s also a solid cause-and-effect thread pulling the reader along—although, as you’ll see, I think that drops in a few places and needs some shoring up. But those issues aren’t as big as they sound.”

This is a great episode—huge thanks to Erin for being willing to play along. Follow her (but don’t hate her!) at @erinquinnkongwrites on Instagram or subscribe to her email: The (Writing) Group Chat on Substack.

Links from the pod

The Only Game in Town, Lacie Waldon

Episode 402: How Bad Can a Good First Draft Be

*from KJ: I did a developmental edit for Erin while doing the Author Accelerator Book Coaching program, but although I’m certified, I don’t offer coaching services.

How can you read Erin’s developmental edit letter? For starters, you need to be a paid supporter—and we’re offering a super-quick October surprise special. Head to https://amwriting.substack.com/halloween2024 for 20% off your next year.

When Your Book Becomes a TV Show Oct 11, 2024

KJ here, team. In this episode, Jennie asks the questions, and I walk us through the whole thing from start to finish—the options, the renewals, the moment we thought we were getting the rights back and the big calls that finally convinced me this was really going to happen—and then of course what it’s like when it DOES.

Above are a few glam shots from the premiere screening, which will never not be one of the biggest nights of my career. I’m not sure how you top it. You can watch The Chicken Sisters—an 8 episode series starring Schuyler Fisk, Genevieve Angelson, Lea Thompson, and Wendie Malick on Hallmark Plus (or Amazon Prime) now. Here’s a little preview on YouTube, too.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Art of Helping Writers Do Their Best Work Oct 04, 2024

Hey #AmWriters, Jennie here. I'm excited to welcome editor and publishing strategist, AJ Harper to the show to talk about the art of helping writers do their best work.

AJ helps nonfiction authors write foundational books that enable them to build readership, grow their brand, and make a significant impact on the world. She was part of the writing coaching team for TEDx Cambridge, one of the largest TED events in the world. As a ghost writer and a developmental editor, AJ has worked with business writers of all kinds, guiding them to bestseller lists and to many millions of copies sold. She's worked on 10 books with business writer Mike Michalowicz, including Profit First: Transform Your Business From a Cash Eating Monster to a Money Making Machine.

Her own book on writing came out in 2023. It's called Write A Must Read: Craft a Book That Changes Lives, Including Your Own. This book is one of the best books on writing nonfiction I've ever read and it's one of the best books on writing period, which is why I wanted to have AJ come on and talk to us. Our conversation will be incredibly helpful for anyone writing nonfiction, but also for people writing fiction and memoir. AJ is just really smart about story structure, thinking about the reader, and fine tuning your ear for good writing. Her story about how she stepped out from behind the ghostwriting curtain to raise her own voice and claim her own authority is riveting.

Books mentioned in the episode:

Little Women, Louisa M. Alcott

The Trumpet of the Swan, E.B. White

Caddie Woodlawn, Carol Ryrie Brink

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Lyndsay Rush's Poetry is A Bit Much Sep 27, 2024

Sarina here! There was a scramble over who got to interview Lyndsay Rush about her poetry, but I raised my hand first.

I’ve always thought of poetry as the fustiest kind of writing, but the moment I opened A Bit Much, I knew that Lyndsay was here to change my mind. Not only is her poetry gorgeous, her path to becoming a published author was unusual in all the best ways.

Tune in to hear how she accidentally became a poet. And how she accidentally accumulated over 140,000 Instagram followers.

We ask her about that magic moment—when she suddenly realized that this Instagram poetry habit of hers was going to be a whole big thing. It’s a publishing story for the ages!

Or just skip to the good stuff and find A Bit Much at Bookshop, Amazon, or Barnes & Noble.

Lindsay on Instagram. Lindsay on Tiktok. Lindsay on Threads.

Hey everyone, I'm Jennie Nash, and if you're interested in becoming a book, coach, I have a special offer for you. It's a free pass to a mini course called The One Page Book Coaching Business Plan. This course walks you step-by-step through how to envision your future book coaching business and it leads to a one-on-one strategy session with me! Go to bookcoaches.com/ABC and at the bottom of the page, you'll find a link to the course. That's bookcoaches.com/ABC. You can use the code FROMJENNIE to get in free. That's FROMJENNIE all caps and make sure you spell my name out: J E N N I E. We're going to be raising our prices in 2025 so now's a great time to get certified if you think it's something you want to do. I look forward to speaking with you.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 414: Your Questions, Answered Sep 20, 2024

Hello #AmWriters! This week, I’m answering a bunch of questions we received via amwritingpodcast@gmail.com and our #AmWriting Facebook group. Here’s to flattened learning curves!

* I just got my first speaking inquiry. How do I know how much to ask for?

* Someone asked me to provide video content for a conference/summit/virtual event. What should I charge?

* What’s all this about affiliate codes and revenue sharing for conferences?

* What reference books would you recommend for writing nonfiction?

* It’s time to ask for blurbs for my book! How do I figure out who should blurb? How do I ask? Can someone quoted in my book blurb my book?

* If I quote myself in my own book is that plagiarism? What if I really need to use that quote, how do I do it?

* I’ve been asked to speak but I’m freaked out by my time slot/some other challenge to audience numbers. How do I get people to stay and listen?

* What are the “marketing materials” you keep talking about for events and where did you get all of it?

Hey writers. I'm Jennie Nash, founder and CEO of Author Accelerator. It's back to school time, which means it's a great time to start training to become a book coach. By this time next year, you could be certified and out there helping writers bring their books to life- even if you're not a published author yourself. Take our quiz, The 10 Characteristics Of a Great Book Coach, to find out if you have what it takes to become a great book coach. Visit bookcoaches.com/characteristics-quiz that's the clunkiest URL ever so let me say it again: bookcoaches.com/characteristics-quiz We'll also put it in the show notes so you know you're going to the right place.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Start a Novel from Scratch Sep 13, 2024

Is it time for me (this is KJ) to start a new novel? Not quite-quite-quite, but that time is coming. There’s a decent chance that the novel I’m working on now will be finished, in the now-we-try-to-sell-it sense, soonish. And that will take some time, and maybe it won’t happen (I know, you think I’m just saying that but no, it’s really quite possible). Even if it does, at some point very soon that will be out of my hands for long enough to start working on something new—and if I’m lucky, that will co-incide with November and National Novel Writing Month, which is my favorite time to write a 55K word draft that probably will contain approximately 1737 words that end up in an actual novel but that seems to be part of my “process”. I think my process is a raging dumpster fire but out of the ashes arise books so fine, this is how I do it.

First, I’ll need an idea. Jennie Nash and I recorded a whole summer about “Ideating” (Episodes 366-373—The Idea Factory). I’d argue that this is possibly the most important part. Sarina and I have a partially joking saying: Friends don’t let friends write books without hooks. But an idea is a multi-part creation. It’s not just a hook, it’s not just a premise. A premise is vampires that feed only on people descended from the original crew and passengers on the Mayflower, and maybe that’s a hook as well. It’s not an idea until we know why it matters, and who it matters to within the book and why it might therefore matter to readers.

Honestly, I’ll probably get that second bit wrong to start with, but you have to start somewhere. Right now, though, I don’t even have the first bit. Maybe you don’t either. Maybe you have an idea noodling around inside you, or more likely fifty. Maybe you can mash some of them together. Maybe they’re all amorphous or flimsy or when closely examined take place in a world or mood that you don’t want to live in for the next couple of years.

But you have to pick one and see where it goes. I started this thinking I could help with that, and now I’m not so sure. I mean, I have a plan. I know what I am going to do, or what I think I’m going to do, but it’s hardly a step-by-step formula for success. It’s going to go something like this:

* Wander the bookstore. Most people buy their books online from descriptions now, but genre still matters. Look at the piles of romantasy (romance/fantasy), the growing tables of horror and horr-antsy (I made that up but it should be a thing). The buy-one-get-one-half-off tables of romance and thrillers, and speaking of thrillers, that’s a pretty broad category that ranges from “your heart is in your throat the whole time” to “huh, I wonder what’s going on here”. Series mystery, which I think is the only thing left that’s really “mystery” and not “thriller”. Pick up a book from “fiction” that’s described right in the cover copy as a “second chance romance” and try to figure out why it’s in one place and not the other. (One Last Shot by Betty Cayouette, which I found by googling what I remembered from the cover copy: book second chance model photographer theo italy. Nicely done, Google.) Sigh, give up, and try not to contemplate whether the world really needs any more books. It does not. But I need to write one, so it’s getting one. #sorrynotsorry

* Play the airport game, which we talked about in Episode 367 HERE). Basically it goes like this: go to an airport (or ask a friend who’s going somewhere). Find the Hudson or whatever your airport general shops are called that has the SMALLEST selection of books. Like, one rack face out. Take a picture and then walk yourself through it and ask, “which of these books is most like something I could have written?” Examine those books closely, asking two primary questions: 1) why is this in the airport bookstore (why do people love it/buy it) and 2) why is it like something I could have written? Then spend your flight, or two hours in a coffee shop, coming up with an idea and a brief pitch for something that resembles each one of those books. You have no more than 30 minutes for each book/pitch, and it must have a title, a logline, rough flap copy, inner and outer plots and a story arc with a beginning, middle and end.

* Do a wild title brainstorm. Sometimes a book just has a great title. Beach Read, Summer Romance, A Star is Bored, Blonde Identity. The last time I made a list of “great titles” I hit one—Romantic Comedy—that someone else has recently used to great success and came very very close on two others. Should you write a book just because you have a great title idea? No of course not, but some great titles could apply to a LOT of book ideas. People are buying the vibe, not the plot, when they buy Brooklynaire.

* Mayyyybe look over your old idea notebooks, if you have them. I have some mixed feelings about this, since I don’t want to let my current idea generating muscle off the hook. But these might also jog something loose. I have my 2022 book out now for this purpose.

* Pick a couple ideas—say three—and noodle them out further. Now we’re pretty much into the whole Idea Factory protocol from the summer of 2022—and that DID end up with me writing one of the books we talked about. So apparently it “worked”.

That’s my plan. Y’all know I like to set “sticker” goals—a nice thing about this is its flexibility.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Raising Your Voice, Claiming Your Story Aug 30, 2024

Hey writers! I’m Jennie Nash — and this is the #amwriting podcast, the place where we talk about writing all the things: short things, long things, fiction, non-fiction, pitches and proposals.

Today, we’re going to dig into a part of the writing process that comes WAY before you write anything — which is giving yourself permission to write in the first place.

So many writers are shut down by teachers, people who love them, critique partners, well-meaning editors and book coaches, perhaps the entire culture– and the impact of that shutting down can last for decades, if not entire lifetimes.

In my Blueprint framework – a method of inquiry for starting a project -- the first question is why write this book? Why do you want to do this? It’s amazing to me the number of times that the deep level why has to do with reclaiming a voice that was shut down.

My colleague and friend Julie Artz was shut down when she was 25 and 20 years later she is finally grappling with what happened – and feeling a creative spaciousness that eluded her until now. She’s been on the show before, but I invited her back to talk about this important topic.

About Julie:

Julie Artz is an Author Accelerator-certified Founding Book Coach, a sought-after speaker and writing instructor, and a regular contributor to Jane Friedman, Writers Helping Writers, AuthorsPublish, IWWG, ProWritingAid and more. Her work as a Pitch Wars and Teen Pit mentor, a former SCBWI Regional Advisor (WWA), and her memberships in The EFA, the WFWA, AWP, and the Authors Guild keep her industry knowledge sharp. She’s built a thriving book coaching business based on her values, her editing chops, and her knowledge of story. Connect with her on Instagram @JulieArtz and download her freebie on giving yourself permission. https://pages.julieartz.com/giveyourselfpermission

It’s hard to believe the summer is almost over, and in the next few weeks, we will be wrapping up our special Blueprint Challenge that we did here at the #AmWriting podcast. As a part of that challenge, anyone who signed up for and completed it will be getting a list of exclusive offers from Author Accelerator book coaches to help them with their blueprints.

But if, as the summer closes, you're at a point where you feel like you could use some help from a book coach, we suggest you check out Author Accelerator’s book coach directory. They’ve certified more than 260 book coaches in fiction, nonfiction and memoir, and one of them may be the perfect person to help you get your book back on track.

Head to https://www.authoraccelerator.com/matchme to find the book coach that’s right for you.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Congrats, You're Publishing During the Election Cycle - Episode 410 Aug 23, 2024

It all Started on the ‘Book

Sarina, here! This episode began in a Facebook thread. In a writers’ group, author Dena Moes R.N. expressed some concern about trying to bring a book to market during a very noisy news cycle.

I pushed back a little, given the nature of her book: It's Your Body: The Young Woman's Guide to Empowered Sexual Health. This lovely book is no stranger to politics. In 2024 it’s political to even suggest that a young woman has the right to decide the fate of her own body.

What could be more timely?

Dena and I brought our friendly debate to your door, where we cover:

* What does the election cycle really mean for books and book buyers?

* What are some elements of Dena’s story that play well with readers who are staring down the barrel at a very important election?

* Who should Dena talk to about this book, and why?

You can see some of the content Dena is working on at Instagram and Tiktok

You can find the book at Amazon and Bookshop.

Books we’re reading this week:

Dena is reading I’m Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself by Glynnis MacNicol and The Inner Practice of Medicine by Dr. Wendy Lau.

Sarina is reading: Happiness for Beginners by Katherine Center and One Jump at a Time by Nathan Chen.

Are you a “sticker”?

Regular listeners know that whenever we meet our writing goals around here, we text each other one word: STICKER. (and then we add a cute sticker to our calendar, because we’re fun like that).

We call supporters of the #AmWriting podcast “stickers” too—and while our regular podcasts and shownotes go out to all of our listeners, we have created a few things just for stickers. First, there’s the Summer Blueprint for a Book Sprint—10 weeks dedicated to working with coaches and a community to figure out how to turn your next idea—or your struggling draft—into the book you want to write. You can join it anytime (the how-to is below).

Stickers can also submit the first page of their WIP to the Booklab First Pages podcast, where we might choose it to discuss, review and offer ideas for persuading agents, editors and readers that they want to turn that page and see what happens next. (Find the link to submit a first page HERE.)

I’m a sticker! Give it all to me now.

To join the Blueprint for a Book Summer Sprint, you must be a paid subscriber. Then, opt-in and set up your podcast feed. Don’t worry, it’s simple! Click here to go to your #AmWriting account, and when you see this screen, do two things:

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 409: Tag Along on a Speaking Trip with Jess! Aug 16, 2024

Hello #AmWriters! Jess here at the beginning of a very busy fall speaking season, coming to you from the northwest corner of Indiana. I’ve talked to you before about the nuts and bolts of my speaking work, but I thought it would be fun to bring you along with me and talk about the things I pack, plan for, and think about when I’m on the road.

If I missed anything you want to learn about, head on over to the #AmWriting Facebook group and hit me up with questions!

What’s in my speaking bag:

What I found when I visited the Lafayette Barnes and Noble in search of Sarina Bowen’s books (look for the yellow pages!):

Then I went over to the thriller department and found:

And when I looked for KJ I found:

And finally, I check for my books so I can sign them, photograph the books and let readers on social media know there are signed copies at the bookstore! I was not originally face out but once I signed, the bookseller re-arranged so I could be. Loved her for that.

Are you a “sticker”?

Regular listeners know that whenever we meet our writing goals around here, we text each other one word: STICKER. (and then we add a cute sticker to our calendar, because we’re fun like that).

I’m a sticker! Give it all to me now.

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

#FlashbackFriday: Very Serious About Fun Reads with Emily Henry Aug 09, 2024

The title of this episode comes from a great George Michael quote that Sarina reminded us of and one that I now think about all the time: People thought I wanted to be seen as a serious musician, but I didn’t. I just wanted to people to know that I was very serious about pop music.

That’s us here. We’re very serious about fun reads—and so grateful that Emily is too. This episode was recorded as Emily was releasing Book Lovers. This year, you can read her newest, Funny Story, which was just the delightful escape Sarina and I both needed this summer. And let me remind you right here that you can—and should!—also grab Sarina’s latest, the fantastic The Five Year Lie—a very very fun read.

This was a great talk and we know you’ll love it—but for your entertainment, here’s what AI had to say about it:

The speakers discussed their experiences and insights on writing and publishing, including the importance of maintaining a consistent brand, balancing creative expression with validation, and creating authentic conflicts in fiction. They also shared their thoughts on the value of joy and love in literature, and how societal pressure to produce world-changing literature can lead to a lack of appreciation for works that prioritize happiness and joy. Additionally, they discussed their favorite thriller books and the impact they've had on them, and shared book recommendations in the romantic comedy genre. Overall, the conversation highlighted the challenges and rewards of writing and publishing, and the importance of prioritizing joy and happiness in literature.

Something like that, yeah. But with more shrieking and laughing.

This discussion was so true to our hearts (KJ writing, Sarina co-signing). It’s hard to for some of us to give ourselves permission to write fun books in a world where “things we like” and especially “things women like” are often dismissed as less worthy. After Sarina reminded us of this George Michael quote—when asked when he was going to “write serious music” his response was “You don’t understand. I’m very serious about pop music.” And KJ immediately demanded that everyone read This Is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch which is, instead, a book about exactly what we just said. That you should read. Immediately. We’ll wait.

So how do your get very serious about writing fun reads? Emily’s insight on how to turn the seemingly small internal battles that our kind of fiction often hinges on is perfection: “you have to make things realer than real life”. For more, hit play.

Links in the Pod

#AmWriting Episode 302 with Katherine Center

#AmReading

Emily: Miss Aldridge Regrets, Louise Hare

The Bodyguard, Katherine Center

The Change, Kirsten Miller

Sarina: The Bodyguard, Katherine Center

Upgrade, Blake Couch (Emily then shouted out Dark Matter and The Letty Dobesh Chronicles with its Good Behavior TV adaptation)

KJ: This Is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch, Tabitha Carvan

Thank You for Listening, Julia Whelan

Emily Henry on Insta: @emilyhenrywrites

Join Emily’s newsletter: Get My Grocery List

Are you a “sticker”?

Regular listeners know that whenever we meet our writing goals around here, we text each other one word: STICKER. (and then we add a cute sticker to our calendar, because we’re fun like that).

I’m a sticker! Give it all to me now.

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How an Inside-Outline Can Save Your Revision (and maybe your book) Aug 02, 2024

Hey writers! Maybe I say this all the time, but this episode is GREAT. Remember how in Episode 402 I asked the question for the ages: How Bad Can a Good First Draft Be?

At that point I was on a fifth draft and it was sadly still pretty “bad”— think “I built a bookshelf but one of the shelves is on the back and I don’t think it necessarily needed window shutters or a fan”. I settled in to outline, not what WAS there but what I knew SHOULD be there on both the plot (outside) and emotional arc (inside) levels. And damn if it didn’t help. It always helps.

This episode is me and Jennie talking about how I did that, why I needed to and how much it helps. Funny story: last week after the episode as i was revising I looked at one of the new scenes I’d plotted out and thought, nah. Things were running a bit long, I thought. I don’t need that.

It took 48 hours of wrestling with what came next to realize that the problem was: yes, I did need that scene. It didn’t do masses of plot work but it was huge emotionally. Put it back in and started rolling along.

Whew. Ok, episode—enjoy!

Are you a “sticker”?

Regular listeners know that whenever we meet our writing goals around here, we text each other one word: STICKER. (and then we add a cute sticker to our calendar, because we’re fun like that).

I’m a sticker! Give it all to me now.

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

From Women’s Fiction to Romance in 30 Days Jul 19, 2024

Writing BFFs Alison Hammer and Bradeigh Godfrey were thirty days away from a publisher deadline for their third book when the news came down: change this book from women’s fiction to romance.

Should they do it? Could they do? How would they do it???

In this episode, Jennie Nash digs into this juicy question.

Books mentioned in this episode:

The Beach Trap

The Comeback Summer

Until Next Summer

Are you a “sticker”?

Regular listeners know that whenever we meet our writing goals around here, we text each other one word: STICKER. (and then we add a cute sticker to our calendar, because we’re fun like that).

I’m a sticker! Give it all to me now.

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flashback: Being Genre Flexible with Catherine Newman Jul 12, 2024

Hi! Jess here. I just finished Catherine Newman’s new novel Sandwich, and I’m feeling a lot of feelings. I expected Sandwich to be great because I love everything Catherine Newman writes, but it was a balm for a wound I did not realize I was nursing.

That’s what I love about books. Our feelings about them are highly personal and subjective. Some of my favorite books possess little literary merit but have found a place on my list of essential re-reads based on their emotional, temporal, or geographical entanglements.

Sandwich is a town on Cape Cod, where the bicep would be if the Cape were to let up on tricep day. A big part of my childhood was spent in a lovely house on Corn Hill in Truro, the second to last town on the very tip of the arm, where the Cape would wear her watch if she cared about the time.

When I was very small, my parents rented with friends, but when their best friend, Richard, bought our favorite of the hilltop houses, it became our second home, the place where my most visceral, cherished, rose-tinged memories were formed. The pine floors were soft under my feet, the sound of the bayside waves constant and gentle, and the light of the morning sun in the front bedroom remains my favorite filter.

When the house burned in the eighties, we all wept as if a family member had died. My father oversaw its reconstruction down to the perfect placement of the toilet. In a house bursting with actors, musicians and other sorts of wonderfully loud and dramatic guests, it was the only place one could be alone to lean on the windowsill looking out at Provincetown, down at the rock that emerged at low tide, and the cute boy from the cottage two doors over.

Richard died in 1992 and he took the magic of that house with him. We tried, we really did. We agreed to think of it as a new place, a future place, but our last gasp visit ended in an explosive family fight that served as final punctuation on that chapter of our lives.

Cape Cod has changed since the seventies and eighties for everyone, of course. It’s fancier, more curated. Less wild and dangerous, more pruned and planned. Everyone knows where the hidden freshwater pond is, and they are all there, all the time.

I mourn the loss of what Cape Cod was to me, but Catherine Newman brought it back for me while I was immersed in her words, and for that, I am grateful. Her novel bears little resemblance to my lived experiences, and yet it evoked moments and images that resonated deep in my body.

That’s what great books do for us. They help us feel things we thought we’d lost. They describe the things we lived and how they felt.

Read Sandwich. It will likely be something completely different for you than it was for me, but it will be something beautiful, nevertheless.

And with that, here’s our episode with Catherine Newman about genre-hopping and writing all the things.

“We’ll be tending our wounds. And we’ll be as young and as whole as we’re ever going to be.” - Catherine Newman, Sandwich

#AmReading

KJ: Henna Artist by Alka Joshi

Recipes for a Beautiful Life by Rebecca Barry

Jess: Sure Shot by Sarina Bowen

Animal, Vegetable, Miracle by Barbara Kingsolver

Missing You by Harlan Coben

Catherine: Know My Name by Chanel Miller

Sea Wife by Amity Gaige

The Chicken Sisters by KJ Dell’Antonia

Original shownotes:

Why stick to any one genre? Our guest this week is Catherine Newman: memoirist, middle grade novelist, etiquette columnist and now the author of How to Be a Person: 65 Highly Useful, Super-Important Things to Learn Before You’re Grown-Up. While she’s at it, she writes a cooking blog, co-authored a book on crafts for kids and edits ChopChop, a kids cooking magazine. And she pens frequent funny essays for everything from O to the New York Times to the Cup of Jo website. In other words, she’s putting a pastiche of writing together and making it work with an insouciant disregard for any and all advice about self-branding or owning an niche or sticking to one topic or identity.

In fact, I’d argue that “insouciant disregard” might just BE her brand.

This episode also includes the immortal words “I’ve never had to kill anything during the podcast before,” uttered by Jess—so that’s a reason to listen right there. But there are plenty of others—this is a real nitty gritty episode on building a career and getting things done.

Are you a “sticker”?

Regular listeners know that whenever we meet our writing goals around here, we text each other one word: STICKER. (and then we add a cute sticker to our calendar, because we’re fun like that).

I’m a sticker! Give it all to me now.

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Escaping the Lure of Attention and Approval with Kathleen Smith Jul 05, 2024

It’s SO SO EASY for creatives to get caught up in chasing after praise and approval to boost their own mood and productivity. How can we spend less energy "borrowing self" from other people's reactions, and more energy pursuing what's important to us? KJ asks Kathleen Smith, author of True to You: A Therapist's Guide to Stop Pleasing Others and Start Being Yourself, to help us find our true writer-selves at all the moments when all the other opinions and demands and pseudo-beliefs beckon. The goal? Hanging up a mental sign that says “currently closed to imaginary commentary.”

Kathleen Smith PhD, LPC is an author, licensed therapist, and expert on relationship systems with degrees from Harvard University and The George Washington University. She is the author of Everything Isn’t Terrible: Conquer Your Insecurities, Interrupt Your Anxiety, and Finally Calm Down, a funny, practical guide that breaks down psychotherapy concepts into accessible stories of change and True to You: A Therapist’s Guide to Stop Pleasing Others and Starting Being Yourself.

She also writes a weekly therapy newsletter, The Anxious Overachiever, —and clearly we all need THAT.

#AmReading

Kathleen: Wild Rituals, Caitlin O'Connell

KJ: The Creative Pragmatist, Amy Smilovic (largely unobtainable, so check out her Substack here.)

Find Kathleen via her website, Facebook, or Instagram

Are you a “sticker”?

Regular listeners know that whenever we meet our writing goals around here, we text each other one word: STICKER. (and then we add a cute sticker to our calendar, because we’re fun like that).

I’m a sticker! Give it all to me now.

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Why you don't have to do it like that one writer in the NYT Jun 28, 2024

We only meant to dissect the success of the writer from this NYT piece briefly, but it turned out we had a lot to say. No, we can’t all imitate her (nor do we want to) but there are things to be learned here. And things to be learned by checking in on your goals at mid-year! How’s it going out there?

LINKS

New York Times: How a Self-Published Book Broke ‘All the Rules’ and Became a Best Seller

The Atlantic: The 24-Year-Old Who Outsold Oprah This Week

The Nothing Sells Books but Books Still Sell essay and episode #401

Not linking to the workbook we discussed bc I have my doubts…

Not linking to the TT stuff either so sue me.

Start Where You Are, Meera Lee Patel

oh OKAY I’ll link to the workbook:

The Shadow Journal, Keila Shaheen

Rachael Herron’s Ink in Your Veins Podcast Ep. 183 with Jennie Nash

Sarina’s latest book, The Five Year Lie

Jess on Instagram and TikTok killing it

Funeral in my Brain, Lisa Levy (coming soon!)

2024 Words

KJ: Unapologetic

Sarina: Abundance

Jess: Recreate/Recreate

Jennie: I… do not remember. (It was Zone of Genius)

#AmReading

Jess: Ali Hazelwood’s Not In Love, Funny Story by Emily Henry

KJ: I Hope This Finds You Well, Natalie Sue

Sarina: The Paradise Problem, Christina Lauren

Jennie: They’re Going to Love You, Meg Howrey

An #AmWriting Success Story, Episode 404

Are you a “sticker”?

Regular listeners know that whenever we meet our writing goals around here, we text each other one word: STICKER. (and then we add a cute sticker to our calendar, because we’re fun like that).

I’m a sticker! Give it all to me now.

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Stop! Don't Write that Book (Yet) Jun 26, 2024

The Blueprint is a process of inquiry that ideally happens before you start to write a book, but is also incredibly effective before you start to revise a manuscript or if you happen to be stuck writing chapter three, or thirteen, or thirty-three over and over again.

Jennie created the Blueprint and KJ is both a fan and a book coach who is certified to teach it. In this short episode, we chat about why the Blueprint is so great and why it would be great for you to do it with us this summer!

Do The Blueprint With Us This Summer!

Starting July 2, we’ll be walking you through the 14 steps of the Blueprint over 10 weeks. Some of the steps are very short and we combined them into one episode.

Every episode speaks to fiction writers, memoir writers, and nonfiction writers. There are workbooks, and you will get a link to the digital download of the Blueprint book of your choice.

We’ve also invited four Author Accelerator coaches to host weekly AMAs (ask me anything) and write-alongs so you can ask questions, block off time to write, and meet other #amwriting listeners who are working on their projects, too. You can meet Amy Bernstein, Candace Coakley, Sara Gentry, and Stuart Wakefield in this post.

If you finish your Blueprint over the summer, you will be eligible to win a review from either me or KJ. (If you missed the #AmWriting Success Story about the writer who won the Blueprint Sprint grand prize in 2022, give it a listen. It’s very inspiring! It’s right HERE.)

To play along, you must be a paid subscriber.

Once you pay, opt-in and set up your podcast feed. Don’t worry, it’s simple!

Click here to go to your #AmWriting account, and when you see this screen, do two things:

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

Once you set those things up, you’ll get all the future Blueprint emails and podcasts (and if you’re joining the party a bit late, that’s fine — just head to our website and click on Blueprint for a Book in the top menu).

I want to join the Summer Blueprint Sprint!

I want to invite all my writer friends to join me!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

An #AmWriting Success Story! Jun 21, 2024

The #AmWriting team is so excited to present this interview with Dr. Barb Mayes Boustead – because it’s an #AmWriting success story!

Barb was the random winner of The Summer Blueprint Challenge we ran in the summer of 2022. She won a Blueprint review with Jennie Nash – and the book proposal that came out of that work recently landed Barb a book deal. (Want a chance at something like that for yourself? Keep reading—we’re hosting a new Blueprint Sprint!)

Her book, WILDER WEATHER: What Laura Ingalls Wilder Can Teach Us About Watching the Weather, Understanding Our Climate, and Protecting What We Cherish, will be published by the South Dakota Historical Society Press in 2025 — a perfect match of topic and publisher, as you will hear in this episode.

We are offering this challenge again this summer — and this same prize. Anyone who finishes the Blueprint this summer is eligible to enter the drawing to win a Blueprint review. You can read all about the Blueprint challenge HERE — and you can join us at anytime this summer. We’d love to have you for the podcasts (there are ten in the series), the AMAs, and the write-alongs! Any paid subscriber is welcome.

To learn more about Dr. Barb Mayes Boustead’s work, check out her Substack here:

You can also visit her author website and find her on Instagram at @windbarb

You can download a draft of her book proposal HERE.

The Laura Ingalls Wilder conference she mentions in the show is Laurapalooza

The Blueprint Barb did is from Jennie Nash’s Blueprint for a Nonfiction Book: Plan and Pitch Your Big Idea

Are you a “sticker”?

Regular listeners know that whenever we meet our writing goals around here, we text each other one word: STICKER. (and then we add a cute sticker to our calendar, because we’re fun like that).

I’m a sticker! Give it all to me now.

* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (green).

* Click “set up podcast” next to Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Tiny Worlds: How a nature illustrator and author built a fanbase for her work. Jun 07, 2024

Hello #AmWriters, Jess here. When Rosalie Haizlett emailed to introduce me to her work, I was intrigued. At the time, I was working on the marketing section of a book proposal, trying to thick- and thin-slice the book’s potential audience and explain why my fanbase as well as new readers might purchase this particular book I was describing. So when Rosalie emailed to tell me about her forthcoming book, Tiny Worlds of the Appalachian Mountains: An Artist’s Journey my head exploded. How do you convince a publisher to let you write about such tiny worlds, no matter how beautiful your art and eloquent your writing? Rosalie generously answered my questions in the spirit they were asked: with a genuine love for small presses, books about very specific subjects, and wonder for her process and her end product.

As a bonus, I found out about some of the most incredible fellowship opportunities for writers and illustrators, ones I’m tempted to apply for myself! I hope you enjoy this episode as much I did.

Rosalie’s website

Rosalie’s #AmReading suggestions:

Farmhouse by Sophie Blackall and Sophie’s website because it’s gorgeous

Rare Air: Endangered Birds, Bats, Butterflies and Bees by Sarah Kaizar

Jess’ #AmReading suggestion:

The Five Year Lie by Sarina Bowen, duh.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How Bad Can a Good First Draft Be? May 31, 2024

Let me start by answering the question posed in the title: very bad. Very very bad. Terrible, even. Plotless meandering senseless drivel involving two-dimensional characters continually lifting cups of coffee to their lips and then never putting them down and suddenly, without warning, pumping gas instead. Although, to be honest, that last is never my personal problem. My (incoherent, emotion-less, inconsistent) characters tend to meticulously move around a reasonably clear, if poorly described, landscape. They speak in full, grammatically correct sentences. They even banter and they’re often quite entertaining as they go about doing completely the wrong things for the wrong reasons.

And this was my problem. I heard the phrase “shitty first draft” (as you no doubt have) many times, and I thought, well, but it’s not. It’s not unreadable, or incomprehensible. If you picked it up and read just one paragraph you’d mistake it for a real book. Pull any single paragraph out of any draft I’ve ever written and you’d go, yeah, okay. That’s a book by a writer! Not a great writer or anything. My point is that the writing is always fine. Good, even. Sometimes better than good.

So when the drafts themselves turn out to be pretty shitty, I tend to be way more crushed than I should be—because “shitty” doesn’t mean what I thought it did. It’s taken me far longer than it probably should have to figure that out. Maybe everyone else is way ahead of me here. But the thing that makes a shitty first draft “shitty” isn’t that the writing is bad.

It’s that it’s a terrible book.

When I first started writing fiction, I had only my own early drafts to compare things to. They weren’t (aren’t) good—they lacked structure, were too complicated, explained some things too much and other things not at all. There’s no interiority, emotion or description. I write around the plot, or include too much plot, or try to attach a plot that’s not thematically integrated with the story. The bones are soft floppy poorly formed and malleable—but if I, say, burn down a barn, the scene itself will be exciting and consistent. That often fooled (fools) me into thinking my draft is further along than it is. And then I thought it was just me—other people probably wrote pretty good book drafts that then needed revision in different ways. Other people started with good bones and worked out from there. Only I, special stupid snowflake that I was, kept writing all the skin and clothing and hair and sometimes organs to go on wrong or non-existent skeletons.

I’ve since read a lot of other first drafts and I’ve realized: I was totally wrong.

This is how lots of people do it.

This IS what “shitty first draft” means. (Or it can be, it probably means lots of other things too). Most of us (honestly, even if we blueprint and outline and all the things) are going to end up with someone telling us that the book has no middle, that we need to cut the first 2/3, that our protagonist isn’t unlikeable per se, but rather that there is nothing on the page to like or dislike. Someone will say, he has no agency. She’s too passive. There’s nothing at stake in the first third of the book, why on earth would she take this job/go to this party/answer that phone call, why this, why him, why now. And they will be right (although they might not be right about how to fix it).

Whether it’s a freelance editor, a good beta reader or the hosts of TSNOTYAW who tells you that your draft, be it first or second or fifth, is still firmly mired in “shitty” territory, the most common reaction is something along the lines of:

This is too bad. It’s too awful, if I’ve come this far and I still don’t have this or that fundamental thing in place—if there is somehow no climax or no reason to relate to the character or no clear arc or evolution, if somehow this is 80K words but it is still not a book…

Yeah. Turns out that’s the way it works. For a LONG time. For draft after draft after draft. For the draft that gets you an agent, even maybe. Maybe for the draft that you sell.

Revision—re-drafting— isn’t polishing, or even adding dialogue or emotion or removing a character or changing the POV from third close to first present and back again. Until the very last versions, it isn’t just working with the words on the page. It’s working with the ideas and the concepts and the scenes and the moments. The characters and the themes and the arcs. This is what we mean when we say good writing comes last (Episode 354) and when we try to distinguish between editing and revising. They’re all shitty drafts. Until—and this only happens if you just keep going in there and tearing out the liver you stuck in where the heart should be or whatever—it’s finally a book.

I don’t know about you but I hate this every single time. Some people do it faster than others but every writer whose early drafts I’ve ever read is going through some version of the same thing. It starts with something mind-bogglingly terrible—when considered as a book—far, far more often than I once believed.

If a first draft has a beginning, a middle and an end, it’s a good first draft. It can be as bad as it has to be, as many times as it needs to be, for as long as it takes.

If you find that encouraging… then you’re definitely in the right place.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Nothing Sells Books. But Books Still Sell. May 24, 2024

It’s EPISODE 401! That’s a lot of episodes. We’re proud. We’re also not done—and a couple weeks ago, a fellow writer decreed, in an email post that went rather viral, that No One Buys Books.

We disagree. Instead, we offer the following less bleak but not entirely rosy corollary: Nothing Sells Books. But Books Still Sell.

Coming at you in this episode are four somewhat cynical authors, one who spends her time now working with writers rather than writing herself. We’ve all had books hit various lists… and we’ve all had books that have not, have neither hit any lists or reached target numbers or earned out or anything of the sort. And we have thoughts. Listen for them… but meanwhile, here I am, KJ, with my very own soapbox bc I said “I’ll write the shownotes” and the others, spotting an opportunity to let someone else do a thing, semi-wisely agreed because now I get to tell you what I think.

I mostly think that we authors have bought into a story in which we have more control over our sales than we do. We believe—or want to—that we can TikTok hustle up readers, tweet our way to success, muster our many Facebook friends to buy three copies each (it’s not that much!), put some links in our Substacks and call on our Notes, Threads and Insta buds to click those links. And traditional publishers want so badly to believe that too—because if it’s not true, then we don’t know what is. Reviews MIGHT sell books. Ads sometimes work. Even celebrity book clubs, the last magic best-seller wand, only work when there is a match-up between readers and the book—some Reese, GMA and Jenna picks sell big while others don’t, and there is absolutely no way to beg, buy, or steal your way onto them anyway. (Maybe? Story idea, yours for the taking: author blackmails way onto celeb book list, things go terribly wrong.)

And I want to tell you that this is not true, because I don’t entirely want it to be true. It arguably hasn’t been true for me, and I’ve seen it not work for many if not most of other authors. To get more specific, I’ve had not one but TWO excerpts of a book in the NYT and had it not move the needle. I’ve had an essay in LitHub, ditto. I’ve been on many, many podcasts, I’ve sent emails, I’ve made TikToks and reels, and I’ve watched friends push these buttons hard and less hard to mixed results—but not NO results, and that’s an important distinction. Below, I’m offering a few success stories, all with massive caveats, the most important of which is this: I probably only see the successes.

The TL;DR is this: nothing easy sells books. There is no short cut or even a long cut. For most of us, nothing we ourselves are willing to do or are capable of doing in the short term is going to move enough titles to make a significant impact on our success. The second half of our koan is also true, though. Books still sell. But most book sales, especially those that lead to wild success, come from forces beyond our control. Word of mouth, a lucky media hit, a celebrity boost. A hit TV show that comes out of the blue years after a series is published (Bridgerton), or maybe after the author has died (The Queen’s Gambit). Or they come from enough people picking up the book and sharing it with enough others in ways that cannot be planned or gamed. You can’t count on those things, although one thing remains true: lightning can’t strike a book that hasn’t been written.

The most important thing to do is to write the books.

Sarina notes in the podcast that nothing sells (your) books like more books (by you)—witness, for example, Taylor Jenkins Reid. Daisy Jones and the Six was not her first book by any means—but its success brought her backlist roaring into prominence. I think about TJR a LOT, because she stuck to the thing I want to stick to—writing the books, not recording video confessionals about the writing process and setting them to the music du jour. But… that’s a thing. That people like. That honestly can (maybe, kinda, and I’m not at all sure how much you control this) sell books.

The depressing (to me) truth is that if you really throw your whole heart and soul into marketing your title, you might be able to get somewhere, but the thing is I am talking ALL IN. I’m talking hours of content creation one way or another. It might be hard-hitting researched work in an area that fascinates people. It might be hot takes on a world that really is your wheelhouse. It might be soul-baring, emotional videos about the process. It might be really digging into Facebook ads and Amazon algorithms, SEO and tagging. Either way it’s a lot of non-writing work to create podcasts, ads, videos and well-produced reels. It takes time, much of it spent on details like lining up the right music and analyzing results and repeating again and again and none of that is easy or fast.

Let me offer some case studies. First, Breanne Randall. This one is painful for me because we had similar books coming out at a similar time (Playing the Witch Card and The Unfortunate Side Effects of Heartbreak and Magic), and hers hit the NYT list and mine did not. Is it possible that she wrote a better book? Sure. But she hit the list for one week only (NO SHADE that’s amazing), her first week after going on sale, which means that the vast majority of those sales were pre-orders and most almost certainly didn’t result from WOM from happy readers. So at that moment, it probably didn’t matter whose book was better. What mattered was something else, and it’s quite possible, even likely, that that “something else” was her impressive hustle, especially on TikTok but also on Instagram. I did some. She did more. A LOT more.

For all the details on her hard work and results, read Dan Blank’s description here—but suffice it to say we’re talking hours and hours of video and posts, an excellent eye for what was resonating with viewers and readers and a willingness (up to a point) to really share the journey. She’s also attractive and closer to the TikTok demographic and probably herself loves the format—all things that go a long way to success in any genre. It’s really hard to put that kind of time and effort into a creative act that you aren’t enjoying (and unlikely to succeed). And the book itself fits the TT demo as well—but that’s not enough on its own. She did the work, and she reaped the reward, and I both admire and hate her for it.

Here’s another approach: become the go-to expert in an area you’re passionate about and develop a fan base around it, then write a book in that area that is absolutely for your fans. My example here is Virginia Sole-Smith, who we’ve had on as a guest (Episode 362: Talking Fat Talk and Substack Success, and Episode 128: #PlanItOut). Virginia has shifted around somewhat, from a more parent-oriented place to one centered on diet culture, anti-fat bias, feminism and health. You’ll find her—and her podcast, email and many many media hits and her best-selling book—here. She’s an excellent example of laying the platform groundwork but again, this isn’t something that can be done lightly or easily—or quickly. This took time and passion and persistence. I sincerely don’t think you can fake this or game it, but if you can see your way to it—it sells books.

For a contrarian take on same, go look at Jo Piazza’s last year of content. She is all hustle, and she threw herself, heart and soul, into promoting her novel The Sicilian Inheritance. (Listen to her on Episode 393: Writing What I Want to Write). And she sold a ton of copies—she should be and is thrilled, it’s a success by almost any measure. That “almost” is because—and this is her talking and her measure of a success she’d hoped for, not me judging (although I too define success in this not-very-healthy way)—she didn’t hit any lists.

I say maybe she still will, but the truth is that most books, if they’re going to hit, do so in the first week. (By no means all—see TJR above, or Colleen Hoover, or The Queen’s Gambit, etc). Jo was and is and always will be true to herself and her wide-ranging interests, and that means her last year of content, which has been wildly popular, has also been all over the place, from tradwives to Little House. She’s had amazing media hits, but they didn’t sell enough books to satisfy her. (I write this with some hesitation, I hope she doesn’t kill me… IT IS A FUN GREAT ENTERTAINING BOOK BUY IT NOW.) Maybe if she’d been Virginia and thrown herself all in after… Italian genealogy? True crime? Family history? Then the result might have been different and maybe not. Maybe she’d have been bored. Maybe she’d have missed something she’s done in the past year that will lead her to still bigger and greater book sales. WE CANNOT KNOW.

Because… Nothing Sells Books. But People Still Buy Them. The End (and also, the beginning.)

Announcements:

* The spectacular Summer Blueprint for a Book program, with coaches and episodes and a workbook and all sorts of things to get you rolling on your next project, is coming (details soon, start date 7/2/24).

* Our new monthly Booklab First Pages Review Podcast, starting 6/1/24 (early episodes will be free, later episodes will go to supporters only). Want to submit your first page? Supporters will find the link in their welcome email! (Can’t swing a subscription because $$ is tight? Reply to this email and we’ll set you up.)

* Become a Sticker or Sparkly Sticker supporter before the end of May using this link and get 20% off your first year. This isn’t much, since supporting us costs less than a trendy Stanley mug, but it will buy you a fancy coffee.

LINKS

* Abdi Nessenian, Only This Beautiful Moment

* The Creative Pragmatist

* Sarina Bowen’s The Five Year Lie

* Amy Smilovic on the Second Life Podcast

* The first page of Sarina’s thriller… below.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Trusting Your Gut on a Complicated Plot May 17, 2024

Today, I (Jennie) am excited to welcome novelist Caroline Leavitt to the show. She's a very prolific author who's novels have landed on the New York Times bestseller list, the USA today bestseller list, and have been optioned for films, translated into many languages, contents for magazines, and won all kinds of awards.

Caroline is also the co-founder of A Mighty Blaze, an organization that began during the pandemic to promote independent bookstores and authors who lost their book tours. It's since grown into an organization of 35 professional creative volunteers, connecting writers and readers online in a variety of ways, including a podcast.

Today, I'm talking with Caroline about her new novel Days of Wonder and specifically about the dual timeline and how she learned to trust her gut to make the story work.

You can find her at CarolineLeavitt.com

Humans of New York

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

5 Questions to Ask Yourself Before Self Publishing May 10, 2024

As a hybrid author with a long history of both self-publishing and traditional contracts, I’m often asked about this choice. How I decided to self-publish, and is it still a good idea?

This is question for the ages! Or, well, since 2007.

The answer is that it’s complicated. My own feelings about self-pub have surely evolved over the years. This March I celebrated my ten-year anniversary as a self published author. I had a great return on my efforts right out of the gate, so I’ve always been a fan. Unfortunately, though, self-publishing ate my life. It’s a lot of work, so I’m not quite as gung-ho as I used to be. But that doesn’t mean it’s a terrible idea.

To help you decide, I’ve identified several questions you can ask yourself to help figure out if self-publishing is for you.

#1 Does this book have an easily defined “shelf” in publishing land?

* Self publishing is not for every book. It works well when the genre has a built-in readership who already knows what it wants. For example, mystery lovers know how to shop for a mystery. They know how to spot one, and they usually don’t need an NPR interview with the author to entice them.

* If your book can fit comfortably and familiarly beside its cousins in the genre, give yourself ten points in favor of self publishing.

#2 Do I have a built-in readership I can reach via email or social media?

* If your book does not have an obvious, built-in readership, but you have a built-in following, then self-publishing might make sense for you.

* For example, if agents and publishers are telling you that your topic is too niche for them, but you already know how to reach the exact reader you need, then maybe you should trust your gut. Perhaps you’re the leading expert in crafting origami holiday decorations, with an instagram following of a hundred thousand people. Or maybe you travel the nation speaking on a particular topic. Or you’re part of a well-defined group—like education influencers, or architecture nerds. There are certainly some instances of an author knowing better than the publisher whether a book will sell.

#3 Do I have the patience to learn how publishing platforms fit together?

* I’m convinced that anyone can learn the ropes of self publishing. But you have to want to learn them. I enjoyed learning how to self publish. Then again, I also used to enjoy doing my own taxes. So maybe I’m a special breed of nerd.

* Before you start, figure out which bank account you’re going to provide for payment information, and get ready to provide your tax ID number. You’ll need to set up at least one platform, like KDP or D2D (Draft 2 Digital.)

* If you hate business, math and admin work, make sure to be honest with yourself about all the red tape you’re going to have to cut as a self-published author. And to those who say “I can just hire this stuff out,” I’m not sure that’s a great idea. Yes, there are hybrid-style publishers who will take your money and fill out the forms on your behalf. But many of them overcharge and overpromise. Self publishing is, by its very nature, a DIY effort.

#4 Can I source the editorial and design help that I need to get this right?

* Hiring freelancers is often a fun part of this job, but it’s great to have a plan.

* Editorial work can vary vastly in quality, and the problem is that you won’t be able to tell who’s competent just from a website or an email exchange. That’s why the first question I ask editors is: are you willing to do a two page sample edit? And I don’t hire anyone who says no. It’s not that I expect anyone to work for free, but two pages is just a few minutes time. And finding an editor who jives with your style is hard.

* Furthermore, you need to be very clear about what you expect the editor to do. Is this a developmental edit? Will she be advising you on pacing and plot holes? Or is this a copyedit—meant to find errors, awkward phrasings and repetitions, and basic inconsistencies? Or is this a final proofread? Each of these services will be priced differently.

* Cover design, unlike editorial work, is easier to evaluate from a portfolio online. Note that cover designers tend to be very genre specific. So you need to find someone who has designed covers close in nature to the one you need. Before you even get started, make a Pinterest board of covers in your genre that you admire.

* It’s also worth noting that not all competent writers are born with the right vocabulary for discussing cover design. If you feel this is a weakness of yours, try to find a designer who seems willing to give you the time and attention you need.

#5 Am I ready to bear the full responsibility for launching my book into the world?

* The best thing about self-publishing is that the author has complete control. But that’s also the worst thing about it! If you fall in love with a cover, but it’s not a good fit for the genre, there’s no one to play devil’s advocate. Or, rather, you will have to work hard to find collaborators you trust to help you make the big decisions. And you’ll have to course-correct all by yourself when you realize you’ve gone astray.

Conclusion: with great power comes great responsibility. So be ready! Self-publishing can be life-changing, but it’s best if you go in with open eyes and an open heart.

~Sarina

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

His Years of Writing Eloquently: The Return of A.J. Jacobs May 03, 2024

He’s back! He’s back! One of my favorite writers, an early and generous mentor, the fantabulous A.J. Jacobs. We interviewed him last when his book, The Puzzler, came out, and he’s back to talk about his new book, The Year of Living Constitutionally: One Man’s Humble Quest to Follow the Constitution’s Original Meaning.

Links from the Pod:

A.J.’s website

My Outsourced Lifearticle

Party like it’s 1789! My weird enlightening month living strictly by the U.S. Constitution in The Guardian

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode! If you enjoy what we’re doing here at the #AmWriting Podcast, make sure you’re subscribed to get our episodes straight to your inbox (and hey - maybe forward it to someone else who may enjoy).

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Starting Energy v. Finishing Energy: How the work gets done, start to finish. Apr 25, 2024

We’ve been talking a lot lately about the how hard it is to finish a project and how different that energy is from the wonderful, euphoric, sometimes manic starting energy. Here’s some advice from Jess, Sarina, and Jennie on how authors manage their lives and relationships and work amid the ups and downs of writing projects.

AmReading:

Sarina: She’s been loving the Orphan X series by Greg Hurwitz

Jennie: Her fave read this week is Dear Edward by Ann Napolitano

Jess: Finally got around to listening to Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van Pelt and KJ convinced her to download The Murder of Mr. Wickham by Claudia Gray. She also started The Sicilian Inheritance by return guest Jo Piazza.

Hey, it's Jennie Nash, founder and CEO of Author Accelerator. I hear so many people tell me that book coaching sounds like their dream job, and they wish they could do it, but they can't because ___________. Fill in the blank, whatever it is: They don't have an agent, they haven't written a bestseller, they don't have a Ph.D., they weren't an English major, they don't know enough about the publishing industry--whatever the thing is. And I can tell you that I see people overcome these things every single day. I have a presentation on this, on imposter syndrome. It's the single biggest barrier keeping most people from saying YES to their dream job. Come check it out at bookcoaches.com/imposter. That's bookcoaches.com/imposter.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Daring to Kickstarter with Rachael Herron Apr 19, 2024

If you do not already know Rachael Herron, host of the Ink In Your Veins Podcast (formerly known as How Do You Write) and author of 13-ish novels (including 2 thrillers under the not-exactly pseudonym RH Herron), soon-to-be two memoirs and a few assorted books as well as many many blog posts and essays about writing… well you’re lucky because now you do.

The thing to know about Rachael Herron for today’s purposes is that she’s published her books both independently and with traditional publishers. She’s even retrieved the rights to traditionally published books from over a decade ago and re-published them herself—even while enthusiastically traditionally publishing her thrillers. Even with all that experience and knowledge under her belt, she still decided she just HAD to go out and publish something new. She’s independently publishing her newest book, Unstuck: An Audacious Hunt for Home and Happiness—but first, she decided torun a Kickstarter to help her do it.

Did Rachael have any idea how to run a Kickstarter? She did not. Did she know if she’d meet her goals? Nope—although, as you’ll hear in the episode, she had a bunch of good reasons to think she just might.

If you’ve ever toyed with the idea of using Kickstarter to fund a book yourself, this is the episode for you. We talk about why Rachael decided not to seek a traditional publisher, how she decided to try Kickstarter and what it took to get it done, as well as what I call “mistakes we made so you don’t have to”. We talk about the highs—hitting her goal in a matter of hours and getting to create “stretch goals” so raise even more, being chosen as one of Kickstarter’s “Projects We Love”—and the lows, like almost setting goals in the wrong currency, which would have meant she’d essentially be paying people to take her book and overpromising speed and needing to tell people things were not actually live… yet.

And we get way into the weeds on who this might work for and who might want to look for another way to get what they want. If you’re thinking oh, her platform is big, no wonder this worked for her—we talk numbers, and I bet you’ll be surprised. And her final piece of advice is so important that I’m going to lay it right down here:

Write the book first.

Links from the pod

Find Rachael’s Kickstarter, which runs through April 22, 2024, HERE.

Follow Rachael on Instagram HERE and subscribe to her EXCELLENT email about writing HERE. Support her on Patreon HERE.

Get Your Book Selling on Kickstarter, Monica Leonelle & Russell P. Nohelty

Joanna Penn episodes on Kickstarters

How to Be Old, Lyn Slater

Lulu.com

Bookfunnel

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode: 395 Who Owns an Idea? Apr 12, 2024

The idea for Sarina Bowen’s thriller, The Five Year Lie, is an incredible and suspenseful hook for a story – and she first heard it from a writer friend. In this episode, Jennie Nash interviews Sarina about the concept of who owns an idea and how this particular idea made its way through Sarina’s brain and onto the flap copy of her forthcoming book.

Things Mentioned in This Episode

Lauren Blakely

The Best Men by Sarina Bowen and Lauren Blakely

The Five Year Lie by Sarina Bowen – preorder it wherever books are sold

Sarinabowen.com

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flashback Friday: Writing While #Broken Mar 29, 2024

Hey #AmWriters! It’s been almost three years since our interview with Jenny Lawson first aired, but we know the struggle is REAL - so we thought this is the perfect time to bring this episode back out for a listen. Whether you’re struggling with getting the work done or feeling like maybe you’re not really a writer, this episode may be just what you need to remind you why you’re here. Happy listening!

Writing is hard. In this episode, we talk imposter syndrome, editing, the right headspace for reading your own stuff, why you might need a “nice” agent, reading your work aloud to friends, recording audiobooks in the closet, being years late on a deadline, sending your editor proof of life and the deep inner conviction that people only buy your book because they feel sorry for you. #ohyeah.

#AmReading

Jess: Win by Harlan Coben

Jenny: Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro

Hour of the Witch by Chris Bohjalian

Note: Bookriot Podcast

KJ: The Fifth Petal by Brunonia Barry

Jenny’s Bookshop: The Nowhere Bookshop, San Antonio, TX

The Fantastic Strangelings Book Club books:

Professional Troublemaker by Luvvie Ajayi Jones

Swallowed Man by Edward Carey

Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia

Catherine House by Elisabeth Thomas

The Did Bad Things by Lauren A. Forry

Wow, No Thank You by Samantha Irby

Find Jenny at The Bloggess!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Things Jess Learned This Month, Ep. 394 Mar 22, 2024

Hey hey Jess here!

I had a couple of great learning opportunities this month, so in the interest of flattening learning curves, I took notes for all of you!

First up, I took a call from a company interested in working with me to boost my platform, and I was curious about what they do and how they do it. While I won’t reveal what company I talked to, I will tell you about all the things I learned on that call. Companies that promise to boost platform are proliferating, and I was curious about how it all works.

Second, I was on a panel about monetizing platform at the Institute for Independent Journalists conference on freelancing and learned SO much from my co-presenters. I have subscribed to all of their newsletters because they are very cool writers, all.

Frankie de la Cretaz, Out of Your League: Dispatches from the intersection of queer sports and pop culture.

Tim Herrera, Freelancing With Tim: Demystifying the world of freelance journalism.

Morgan Sung, Rat.House: an exploration of social platforms and how they shape our real world culture, from dissecting the creator economy to unpacking chronically online discourse.

Sa’iyda Shabazz at Autostraddle.com

Jaeah Lee: independent journalist and a contributing writer at The New York Times MagazineAmReading

James, Percival Everett

The Other Bennet Sister, Janice Hadlow

I hope this week’s episode provides some useful information, and at the very least, leads to some of your new favorite writers!

During the pandemic, there was an explosion of people who wanted to write memoir, and many of those writers are now struggling to make sense of their drafts and figure out how to approach the marketplace. It's a great time to be a book coach who specializes in memoir, and in March 2024, Author Accelerator is launching a certification course to give memoir coaches the skills, tools, and experience to meet writers where they are.Our year-long program is robust and intense. I'm inviting any listeners of this show who are interested in our coaching program to sign up for a one-on-one session with me to strategize about whether or not this course is right for you. Just go to bookcoaches.com/amwriting to sign up for a time that works for you.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

I want to sell books. But I'm also writing what I want to write. Episode 393 with Jo Piazza Mar 15, 2024

You KIDS. If you’re not already following Jo Piazza, queen of the highly suspicious influencer side-eye, what even are you DOING on Substack and Instagram? Go follow her now. We’ll wait.

Okay, now listen while we talk about Jo’s many-booked career that includes freelancing, narrative non-fiction, journalistic memoir (the kind where a reporter manages to get paid to interview people to try to help her with her problem), writing novels with co-authors and novels alone. Just LOOK at the list below and tell me you don’t think you’ll get something out of listening to this woman (who has also made multiple podcasts and we’ll list those below too.) Press play now.

BUT BEFORE YOU DO: Pre-order The Sicilian Inheritance and get all things Jo on Substack free forever. You’ll love the book (or if the dual narrative historical feminist fiction is not your vibe I guarantee you’ll find someone who will)—BUT ALSO this is actually a great offer, bc as you can see Jo’s likely to be filling the place with entertaining and informative content for a long time to come. I already have the book and I still pre-ordered because that’s a deal.Jo’s Website: jopiazza.com

Jo’s Books

The Knockoff (with Lucy Sykes)

Fitness Junkie (with Lucy Sykes)

How to Be Married

If Nuns Ruled the World

Charlotte Walsh Likes to Win

We’re Not Like Them (with Christine Pride)

You Were Always Mine (with Christine Pride)

Celebrity, Inc

Love Rehab

AND The Sicilian Inheritance

Jo’s Podcasts

Also mentioned

The Secret Book of Flora Lea, Patti Callahan Henry

Kristin Harmel

#AmReading (or #AmEnthusing bc you can’t stop Jo once she gets going)

Virginia Sole Smith’s Burnt Toast Substack

Sara Petersen’s In Pursuit of Clean Countertops Substack

Momfluenced, Sara Petersen

Ghost Story (narrative Podcast)

Roy Kent’s standup show

The Women, Kristin Hannah

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Be a Good Literary Citizen: Volunteer at a Writing Conference Mar 08, 2024

Whenever I see a writer on social media incessantly talking about their own work, their own book, and their own launch, the thing that comes to mind is this: “They’re not being a good literary citizen.” Being a good literary citizen is, among other things, showing up for the community you are a part of, uplifting other writers, and doing what you can to make sure that all voices are heard. We often think that the time to help others is after you’ve made it, but in this episode I’m talking to a writer who is doing this in a big way before she herself has made it into the spotlight. For years she has volunteered at the Thrillerfest conference – and this year, she was asked to become a paid co-director of the event. I think you’ll find her story inspiring.

Links from the Pod:

Thrillerfest

Samantha Skal, Book Coach

Tessa Wegert’s Shana Merchant series starts with Death in the Family

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flashback Friday: How Do You Write a Non-Fiction Book in less than a Year? Mar 01, 2024

Hey #AmWriters, Jess here! There's a very specific reason I wanted to re-up this coaching call with Emily Edlynn. I did an interview with AJ Jacobs day before yesterday, but it's not going to drop until May. I love AJ Jacobs, I know you love AJ Jacobs, and I’m really excited for you to hear our interview - but in that interview we talked about writing nonfiction books in less than a year. It is possible to do! We had a coaching call with Emily Edlynn 100 episodes ago and I wanted to re-up it because her book is out. She did it! She completed the task. She knew the assignment. Her book, Autonomy-Supportive Parenting, came out at the end of 2023. So I'm very proud to replay this episode and let you know that the P.S. on that episode was success! I hope you enjoy it.

And WAY TO GO, Emily!

Our guest on this episode has a problem—a good problem, yes. An enviable problem even. One that she herself is delighted to have: she’s sold a non-fiction book on proposal.

And now she has to write it. 60,000 words, researched, organized and ready for the editor while also fitting in her day job, raising 3 kids with her partner and all of the other curveballs life likes to throw you.

In this “coaching call” episode, Jess and I (it’s KJ writing, as it often is) help long-time listener Emily Edlynn figure out how much time to spend in what areas: book structure, research, interviewing, drafting, editing—and then how to set yourself up to allow for getting a major project like this completed on time. (We all know how KJ loves a good burn chart - check out episode 175: #HowtoUseaBurnChart). We talk about motivating yourself, strategies for staying on track or picking back up after the unexpected happens. (You can read Emily’s email to us at the bottom of the shownotes.)

Most of us spend more time working on short term projects than longer ones, and when we do get involved with something that stretches out for months or years, it’s usually with other people and external deadlines, whether it’s a major work endeavor, a house remodel or a Ph.D. dissertation. Books—even books with agents and editors—require major solo mojo to get from start to The End—and then revise the result of that. It’s yet another of the many many things that aren’t easy about writing.

But it can be learned, and it can be done.

Emily doesn’t have any trouble using the time she has to write—but if you do, here are some ideas based on Gretchen Rubin’s Four Tendencies, which are all about knowing how you best meet inner and outer obligations (of which writing a book is weirdly both). Obligors need outer accountability. Set yourself up with a friend or your agent, give them your goals and arrange weekly check-ins. Questioners need reasons, so make that burn chart and put up a full calendar where you can see it and always have an answer for “but do I really need to do this now?” Upholders probably need nothing more than a plan—but make sure your inner upholder understands that this is a priority. Rebels benefit from regular reminders that this is hard, that most people can’t do it and that achieving this goal is a rebellion against everything that stands in its way—and many also like a plan that involves beating the clock. Anything that lets a rebel say “I’ll show you!” is rebel jet fuel.

Gretchen appeared on Episode 107 of the podcast, and you can take her “Four Tendencies” quiz here.

Emily’s email: I am a psychologist by training who started writing for an audience in 2017 when my career hit a crossroads with a move for my husband's job. My parenting blog led to writing freelance when possible, including a weekly parenting column for Parents since 2019. In April, I signed a contract with a small, independent publisher, Familius, to write a parenting book.The full manuscript is due May 1. I have never felt so lost! I thought there would be more editor interaction over the year, but she basically said "See you in a year unless you need me!" (I have asked more from her, but have realized she is going to give me broad strokes and not much else.) I have scoured all the places for resources on "how to write a nonfiction book" but besides some of your episodes, what I find is either about self-publishing or marketing, not the process of writing a nonfiction book (that's not a memoir).I'm trying to narrow this down to one question, which probably can't be "how do I write a nonfiction book in a year with no structure, in the time I have?" For context, I spend half my working week doing therapy in a private practice and supervising graduate students. I'm also writing a new blog post once a month to keep my newsletter subscribers engaged, and my weekly column. Oh, and did I mention attempting to raise 3 children in the process? I currently clock about 8 hours a week of writing time . . . and then I read relevant books when I can almost daily. I did find a virtual writing group with two other psychologist authors, which has been helpful. Since you probably aren't aiming to answer "how do I write a book in a year?" maybe narrowing it down to, "How do I manage my time with a professional job that pays the bills, little interaction with an editor (this seems different in the fiction world or even the nonfiction Big 5 world), to complete a 60,000-word nonfiction, researched manuscript in a year?"

Do you think you can help me??

Links from the Pod

How to Get an Agent Episode

Emily’s website, www.emilyedlynnphd.com

#AmReading

Emily: The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel

Wow No Thank You by Samantha Irby

KJ: Becoming Duchess Goldblatt, Anonymous

Jess: The Secret History by Donna Tartt

Podcast: Lili Anolik’s Once Upon a Time at Bennington College

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Why You Should Take a Plot-walk Feb 23, 2024

✍️ Writers: when you’re stuck on a plot, go outside and take a walk with a friend. You’ll still be stuck, but you will get your steps in for the day, and have someone to b***h to. Follow us for more plotting tips. Here all week.

Sometimes Sarina and I take an ordinary walk. Most times, actually. But sometimes, part way up the first hill, Sarina says, Ok, so I have this problem. And then we’re off, trying to figure out why a character would make a certain choice, or how to get someone from point A to point B.

And then I will say, ok, I have a problem. And occasionally it’s that simple, but for me, the problem is usually that I have made my plot so ludicrously over-complicated that it cannot even be explained, let alone reduced to a single problem. Which is a different problem.

And then we try to fix THAT. Either way, there’s a point here, which is: putting the problem, or the plot, into words in itself can help solve it—or reveal what’s really wrong—and also, it can really help to get a new perspective. In the episode, we talk about how and why to do this (it doesn’t have to involve a walk or a dog or a hill), who you can enlist (apparently Kristan Higgins does it with her husband, only he’s not actually allowed to talk) and most importantly, we discuss getting past the all the voices in your head telling you not to, and and note that the louder those voices are, the more likely it is that maybe you need to talk this over with someone before you go any further.

A few things we referenced: the summer planning series, Blueprint for a Book Challenge, which included a LOT of talk about why it’s a good idea to voice what you’re planning to do before you do it.

Links from the Pod:Becca Syme

Jennie’s book The Last Beach Bungalow

Sarina’s book Rookie Move

Otter (voice recording app)

#AmReading

KJ: The Mistborn Trilogy, Brandon Sanderson

Wreck the Halls, Tessa Bailey

Sarina: The Intern, Michele Campbell

Jennie: Debbie Millman’s Design Matters (Podcast)

The Creative Act, Rick Rubin

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Coaching call with author, educator & speaker Katie Kinder Feb 16, 2024

Jess here. I love love love coaching calls, and opt to talk rather than trade emails when someone needs a comprehensive education in speaking career building. I met Katie at a recent speaking event and she grabbed my attention on stage right away. She had that…something that speakers need on stage to hold the attention of a large audience.

Katie was generous enough to allow me to record our call so you all can learn along with her! Here’s to flattening learning curves!

Links from the Pod

Katie’s website

Katie’s book, Untold Teaching Truths

Katie at the Accutrain 50 in 50 panel, from my live Thread of the event:

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Create a Substack that Delivers (for you and your readers) Episode 389 with Dan Blank Feb 09, 2024

Wanna start—or fix—your email/Substack? We GOT YOU. Dan Blank is, truly, THE GUY when it comes to helping writers identify our audience, find ways to reach them and also feel great about the process. Before you do anything else, go subscribe to his Substack. I’ll wait.

Ok, those Substack links are BIG. But brace yourself, there’s more of them. In this episode, which you must go listen to, Dan, Jennie and KJ talk about the three ways to approach a Substack, why you should have an email list no matter what, finding your role (inspiring, entertaining, teaching) and—most importantly—not heading out there with something that’s half baked.

Our message today is: BAKE THE THING.

What do you believe above all? What do you want to explore? What do you want to share? Who do you want to come hang? Answer those questions, and Substack—some version of it, which may or may not involve $$ and trust me we get into that—is YOURS.

Today instead of books, we have Substack follow recommendations! (and you DO NOT have to use Substack to get these emails. If you don’t, they’re just emails. Subscribe!)

KJ’s REC’s

Free and gonna stay that way:

Welcomes $$, plenty that is free and lovely

Worth every $$

Jennie’s RECS

Dan’s RECS

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

What’s on the Cutting Room Floor? Feb 02, 2024

Deciding what to leave in and what to take out is something every writer has to face; from the moment they start conceiving of an idea to the moment when it goes to press. What strategy do you bring to those decisions?

In this episode, I (Jennie Nash) chat with book coach and author Suzette Mullen about the scenes she left out of her forthcoming memoir, The Only Way Through is Out.

She has an ebook you can download and read along with five cut scenes, plus see her reasons for cutting them. You can find it at: https://www.yourstoryfinder.com/behindthescenes

Links from the Pod:

Suzette’s website

Books we mention on this episode include:

Save the Cat! Writes a Novel, Jessica Brody

Blueprint for a Memoir: How to Write a Memoir for the Marketplace, Jennie Nash

You've heard us talk about Author Accelerator's book coach training program, and now they're offering a unique chance to peek inside a successful book coaching business and see what it really looks like. Grab the FREE 52-page mini magazine, From Lost Lawyer and Empty Nest Mom to Thriving Author and Book Coach -- How I Built My Book Coaching Business, HERE. You don't even have to hand over your email! You can read about book coach Suzette Mullen's journey as a writer, a book coach, and a human -- and on February 6 at 9am PST / 12 EST, you can join Author Accelerator CEO Jennie Nash and Suzette for a conversation about Suzette's journey. The sign-up for the February event is on the same page where you download the magazine.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 387: The Art of Manifesting for Tired and Skeptical Authors Jan 26, 2024

I think of myself an analytical person. Fine, a cynical one. So when my friends began talking about manifesting as a way to improve one's writing career, I struggled to wrap my head around it. Even if I was privately fascinated.

First, let’s define our terms.

Manifesting, in this context, refers to the practice of thinking aspirational thoughts with the intention of encouraging them to become reality. It's based on the belief that our thoughts, energy, and focus can directly influence the physical world and attract specific outcomes or experiences. This concept often aligns with the Law of Attraction (See: Atkinson, Wattles, Byrne, etc), which suggests that positive thoughts bring positive results and negative thoughts bring negative ones.

In other words, by visualizing our desires, affirming them through positive statements, and believing in their eventual realization, we can 'manifest' these desires into our lives. It's not just wishing; proponents argue it's about aligning ourselves mentally and emotionally with the desired outcome, thereby making ourselves open and prepared for the opportunities and resources needed to achieve success.

Appealing, right?

I thought so, too. Who doesn’t want to write a letter to the Universe, name her desires, and watch them come true?

But first I had to overthink it. I was raised to believe that hard work was the secret sauce, and if I haven’t achieved my goals then I probably haven’t been working hard enough, or writing well enough. Right?

Besides—if happy thoughts can bring success directly to my doorstep—like fruit flies to an overripe banana—does this mean that failure is always my fault, too? If I tell the universe I deserve to hit the New York Times bestsellers list in 2024, and then the universe doesn’t deliver this shiny bauble… does that imply that I’ve failed myself with my own negativity?

Furthermore, if that’s true, then isn’t manifesting the ultimate in privileged thinking? Some of us face hardcore challenges that make getting through the day awfully difficult. It feels disingenuous to those who are struggling to assume that any obstacle can be cleared by positive energy.

My inner critic pounced, and my exploration of manifesting almost ended there. Almost. But then I had one more uncomfortable thought, and came to realize that this part of the struggle is actually the whole point, because it gets to the heart of writers’ fears.

After all, show me a writer who has never wondered whether writing is not the most self-centered job in the world. Show me a writer who believes that writing is always the most valuable and useful thing she can do with her time. That’s just not how writers are made. Self-criticism is actually crucial to the work. You can’t edit your work if you’re not willing to second guess your own decisions. In fact, balancing the impulse to create with the impulse to delete is, psychologically , the guts of this job.

Furthermore, when I sit down at my keyboard every day, it’s with the understanding that making up stories for a living is already a privilege. Previous success doesn’t exempt me from the knowledge that writing always serves the writer first, before it ever serves the reader. The act of composing a story (or a screenplay or a poem or an essay) is always self-indulgent before it gets the chance to be an indulgence for someone else.

I struggle with this. Not daily, perhaps. But often enough to make asking the universe for more success into a fraught endeavor. Does the universe really care if I hit the USA Today bestseller list for a twenty-fifth time?

And yet…

Here I sit at the keyboard, giving my precious time and attention to this career, whether the universe cares or not. So don’t I owe it to myself to do the best job I possibly can? If there’s anything more self-indulgent than a career in authorship, it’s squandering that career in authorship.

Next, I invite you to consider the conditions under which great writing gets done. Do we do our best work when we’re A) sitting here convinced that nobody cares, and nobody will ever read our work or when B) we bathe in the warmth of great possibility, open to the joy of discovery and ideation?

Yeah, it’s that second one, isn’t it?

It turns out, for me anyway, that manifesting and writing have a whole lot in common. They both share the Rumpelstiltskin-like quality of making something out of nothing. They both require unwavering belief in the possibilities, whether the current reality reflects a blank page, or an empty checking account.

In other words, even if I’m not quite ready to believe that a few hours’ work on a vision board will cause money to cling to me with the static electricity of socks right out of the dryer, a writer already understands that ideas prefer an open mind and a receptive heart. I also know that ideas are critical for excellent and prolific writing. And excellent and prolific writing is a crucial step toward earning royalties.

It is, in short, a positive feedback loop that I already understand on a gut level.

Meanwhile, as I toil at my desk, there are over a hundred spots on the New York Times bestsellers list every week. Someone has got to fill them. There’s almost no point to working fifty hours a week as an author unless I believe that one of those slots can be mine.

Ergo, the only way of catching one of them in my greedy little hand is to manifest that reality out of blank pages and sunshine and the unwavering belief that I’m allowed to ask the universe for all the marbles. A halfway dream is a waste of time and notebook paper.

Dear Universe, let’s call it like it is. My life is already an exercise in literary optimism. I can acknowledge the privilege of this job while still reaching for that next tier. I can open my vulnerable soul wide enough to speak my most ambitious desires out loud. I can let those yearnings see the light of day in much the same way that I give fictional people their own hopes and dreams. It’s not even as hard as I feared.

Yours in gratitude,

—Sarina.

P.S. Universe: if you could also deliver me a first class plot twist for this proposal I’m writing, I’m all ears.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 386: Under the Weather Productivity Jan 19, 2024

“It doesn’t have to be good, it just has to happen” - Seth Godin, The Practice

“F*ck it, I feel like sh*t” - Jess Lahey

Hi everyone! Jess here. We actually managed to get Sarina, Jennie, KJ and Jess together for an episode even though Jess and KJ have been under the weather. All December and January, the group text thread has been moaning and groaning about feeling awful and needing to work but feeling awful. So what do you do when you are not at your physical or mental peak and working becomes more difficult? Do you push on through and grind it out? Sometimes. Do you close the computer and recline in your bed with your hot tea and tissues? Sometimes.

Here are our thoughts on working when under the weather.

#AmReading

Jennie

* Turn Every Page: The Adventures of Robert Caro and Robert Gottlieb documentary

* Avid Reader: A Life by Robert Gottlieb

Jess

* Also a Poet: Frank O’Hara, My Father, and Me by Ada Calhoun

* Why We Can’t Sleep: Women’s New Midlife Crisis by Ada Calhoun

While we have your attention, we’d love our listeners and readers to help out the Institute for Independent Journalists Foundation in their work, “…to track the demographics of the nearly 3,000 journalists laid off in 2023, and to understand the implications for our field” by taking this census. From the IIJF:

The project aims to take a census of the journalists laid off or bought out in the last year-plus, uncover any trends, and assess the impact on newsroom demographics headed into a pivotal election year. Results will be published in Nieman Reports and shared through IIJ Foundation channels, including conference presentations and webinars. We’re aiming to collect data through mid-February and release results in March.

As you know, the IIJ is a one-year old organization whose mission is the financial and emotional sustainability of freelance journalists of color, entirely led by BIPOC women. The IIJ Foundation is our nonprofit arm.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 385: What I Think About When I Think About Job Offers Jan 12, 2024

Jess here. We have talked about the lure of shiny objects, those glowing opportunities on the horizon that may (or may not) be worth the potential downsides. We have all fallen victim to the hypnotic glare and some of us have even been blinded and temporarily lost our way. So how do you decide whether a job offer is a shiny object, a worthy endeavor, or both? How do you decide if it’s the right time, right boss, right idea, right direction? And once you have done that, what else do you have to be aware of before you sign on the dotted line?

Well, it so happens I’ve been weighing all of these factors over the past month, and I wanted to share my thought process with you in case it’s helpful.

Mentioned in the Podcast:

The Author’s Guild

American Society of Journalists and Authors

PS: Find Special Care Instructions here

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Unapologetically Re-creating our Abundant Zone of Genius Dec 29, 2023

Writers, some thoughts: first off, I HATE the word of the year I declared in this episode. I chose… poorly. It’s such a weak work, so unadventurous, so poky. So I have already reframed, and searched long and hard for a word that basically means, I am never ever making another TikTok again no matter what anyone says, and the result is unapologetic. For the moment. I’m not superthrilled, bc I would rather have a positive active word that one that starts with a negation, but that’s where I am for the moment. (Got a better idea? Reply to this email, I haven’t inked this into the old bujo yet!) I considered NotSorry, in honor of Sarah Knight’s glorious anti-self-help books, which I reference in the episode, but I think I’ll rock unapologetic better.

Well, that was very important. TO ME. #notsorry

This is our annual goal setting episode. We focused mostly on WOTYs (word of the year), possibly because it was mid-December when we recorded and I for one have STILL not figured out exactly wtf I’m trying to do with myself next year other than write another book and attempt to sell it. Jennie gives some brilliant advice about thinking quarterly, which I am totally taking. Sarah dials it back (which is still a lot) and Jess reminds us all to stick with goals that make us happy not just to achieve, but while we’re doing them.

While we’re at it, we re-visit our yearly advice to distinguish between goals we can control (write the book, query the book) and goals we cannot (sell the book to a trad publisher). The first get milestones, steps and our full attention. The second… we recognize may need to shift with the sands. I once wrote a little mini workbook about that with a worksheet—both attached below.

And now, on to the links!

Jennie’s new substack—get ON that.

Pre-order The Five Year Lie RIGHT NOW.

Our WOTYS

RESERVE UNAPOLOGETIC (and know how I feel about changing it? You guessed it baby.)

ABUNDANCE

RECREATE

ZONE OF GENIUS

Links!

The One Thing, Gary Keller with Jay Papasan

I MEANT to mention I Would Do That Differently, Emily Grosvenor’s new substack and seriously, my new motto, but it never came up. Still, she was a guest on episode 342 and I suggest you check it out!

Writers, KJ here. I’m sitting with my new Muse Machine, a deck of 150 open-ended, creative prompt cards designed to spark inspiration across various tasks, from writing to painting from one of my very favorite idea-sparkers and kick-in-the-pantsers, Gretchen Rubin. I don’t like writing prompts (because I hate the idea of intentionally writing stuff I know I won’t use) but these are different. They’re meant to get you thinking in a different way, which means you might get “take a nap” or “can it be bigger on the inside than it is on the outside?” Whatever it is will set your mind spinning. (And they would make a fun gift for the other creatives in your life, too!) Get 10% off until 12/31 with code MUSEPARTNER10. Learn more here.

Are you looking to kick your 9-to-5, and work for yourself? How about if you could set your own rates and read books all day? Author Accelerator might just be able to help you out!

By now, you’ve probably heard us talk about book coaching, an exciting career where you can help writers bring their dreams to life through support, feedback, project management, and accountability at each step of the writing and publishing process. It’s like being a literary personal trainer for writers! Through Author Accelerator’s Book Coach Certification program, you’ll learn the key editorial, project management, organizational, and people skills needed to launch your own thriving book coaching business.

To find out if book coaching is the right career for you, Author Accelerator is offering a 5-day challenge to help you envision your new chapter. In their $99 One-Page Book Coaching Business Plan, you’ll narrow down your business idea, ideal client, ideal service, and more. Interested? Visit bookcoaches.com/podcast to learn more.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flashback Friday: Become a #BetterStrongerFaster Writer with Becca Syme Dec 22, 2023

Crew, we love us some Becca Syme over here. We will listen to any podcast she’s on, sometimes twice. We (okay, me) watch her YouTube channel while we work out. We read her email newsletter religiously. Because she gets writers and writers. She gets that while we may all be trying to do what looks like the same thing, we all do that thing differently and what works for one of us doesn’t work for all of us.

So obviously we were super-excited to get to talk to her, and we’re delighted to re-share this very very inspirational interview with you as we head to the end of 2023.

Who wouldn’t want to write better and faster? I can’t even imagine. Our guest this week is Becca Syme, creator of the Better Faster Academy, author of Dear Writer You Need to Quit as well as other books in the Quit series and the author of the MatchBaker series of cozy mysteries (with such glorious titles as “Vangie Vale and the Murdered Macaron”). Her superpower is helping writers find what they do best—their strengths—and do more of that instead of worrying about trying to “fix” the things we aren’t naturally good at.

Links from the pod

The Clifton Strengths Test

The Ted Lasso blog post

Better Faster Academy

The Quitcast on YouTube

#AmReading

Becca:

Mandy M. Roth

Yasmine Galenorn

Rajani LaRocca

DEVS (TV show)

Sarina: Unguarded by Jay Hogan (part of Sarina’s World of True North)

KJ: The S**t No One Tells You About Writing (podcast)

Are you looking to kick your 9-to-5, and work for yourself? How about if you could set your own rates and read books all day? Author Accelerator might just be able to help you out!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flashback Friday: Episode 293, how to build a literary life with Zibby Owens. Nov 24, 2023

Writers, if you're paying attention at all, you've heard from Zibby Owens in the past 2 years. She's the host of the Moms Don't Have Time to Read Podcast and the creator of Zibby Media, which at this point includes a magazine, a publishing house that's having a great month with, among other books, The Last Love Note, which KJ highly recommends and an LA-based bookstore. In 2022, Jess talked with Zibby about how she launched her literary life--and as that life gets bigger and bigger, we thought it was time to share her story again.

Ever want to know “how she did it”? This episode is our little version of How I Built This, in which we ask Zibby Owens—whose name you surely know by now—about how she turned a desire to be part of the world of books into a one-woman mini book empire.

Zibby Owens is the host of Moms Don’t Have Time to Read, a daily podcast featuring interviews with authors that has over 900 episodes. She’s also a Bookstagrammer with 16K followers, the host of a second podcast—Moms Don’t Have Time to Have Sex—the editor of two anthologies, Moms Don’t Have Time To and Moms Don’t Have Time to Have Kids—KJ contributed to that last one—and now the CEO of Zibby Books, a new publishing home for fiction and memoir. She’s a regular contributor to Good Morning America, she’s been called “America’s Top Bookfluencer” and she has two books coming soon: Princess Charming, a picture book, and Booked, a memoir. She’s also got four kids, and they’re kids—elementary and middle school age, not a bunch of independent high schoolers wandering around

But.

Five years ago Zibby was none of those things (except a mother of four). And that’s what I want to talk about. She’s built a massive literary life, a community, a reputation in just a few years, and—after totally owning the fact that she has help with her kids (heck, not just help, they’re completely gone every other weekend because, divorce sometimes works like that) and also that this isn’t how Zibby earns a living— we go back to the beginning and talk about what it took to get there.

Because no matter who you are, you can’t wake up and say, I think I’d like to be America’s Biggest Bookfluencer, and whip out your Amex card and make it happen. You can’t even take your Kardashian self and decide this is what you want and ask your assistant to set it up. This takes work and desire and passion, and we dig into how Zibby started, and how she made things take off.

Links from the pod:

Lee Carpenter: Red, White, Blue and Eleven

Andre Agassi: Open

Zibby Books

Zibby Books Ambassadors (at bottom of Zibby Books page)

#AmReading

Zibby: Going There by Katie Couric

Hungry Hill by Eileen Patricia Curran

The Husbands by Chandler Baker

The Last Season by Jenny Judson & Danielle Mahfood

KJ: A Spindle Splintered by Alix E. Harrow

Jess: Speaking of Race by Celeste Headlee

It's that time again! Every year Jennie Nash and the Author Accelerator team put together a holiday bundle worth hundreds of dollars for folks who enroll in the Book Coach Certification Program ahead of the new year. Enroll this month to receive a $150 gift card to Better World Books, access to their $99 course the One-Page Book Coaching Business Plan Challenge, a copy of Jennie’s Blueprint book in your genre, and MORE.

And did we mention you can now pre-enroll in Author Accelerator’s Memoir Certification Program? The course opens in March 2024, but if you enroll this month, you’ll get $600 off the cost of enrollment – which is certainly something to be jolly for!

When you enroll in the Book Coach Certification program, you’ll gain access to a thriving community of friends and colleagues, more than 100 hours of training, videos, case studies, and worksheets to teach you the key editorial skills, client-management strategies, and the tools needed to help writers reach their goals and to help you start a thriving book coaching business. So, whether you’re looking to expand your writing skills or start your new year with a new career, there is no better time to start your journey. Visit bookcoaches.com/podcast to get your special offer.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

When Inner Dialogue Isn't "Telling" and When It Is in Memoir and Fiction Nov 17, 2023

Hey writers—I’m in a funny phase of novel drafting right now where I’m really only doing the prewriting—which is an odd style of drafting wherein, for me, I basically write only dialogue and statements of movement and the very most important bits of inner dialogue. (As in, no one is opening car doors or setting down their coffee cups, and there are also no quotation marks, and they could be anywhere as far as setting is concerned.)

Writing this way keeps my eyes on the prize—basically it’s what do I need to know to really write this scene, which kind of tricks me into what does the reader really need to know. I’ll add some of the set dressing later, but I find that when I write this way, the end result is tighter and cleaner.

Here’s an example I found that ultimately became Chapter 3 of Playing the Witch Card. It’s actually pretty accurate:

Flair is desperately shutting door on what she’s done, locking up wildly as if she could lock it inside, back door, Josie never comes to front, running from a ghost, you know better than to make a joke like that in Rattleboro Well did you No Just of herself How was day Sucked Customers 2 if you count Loretta What did she want? She comes in all the time actuall and when she does it’s usually a little better, I think it’s all that Halloween horror That’s what people are here for but then my customers all prefer the alley it’s part of the mystique Yep those rebel tattoos that x percent of the population has But not you When I think of something I want tattooed on me you’ll be the first to know Sometimes that’s my job, do you want to know what tattoo you should have I do not. Stop it. Change subject Loretta wanted me to make Halloween cookies And I suppose you said no. you should. If anything would change your luck I kow you hate it. But I don’t see how you’re going to be here and not be part of it. Met by lucie on the doorstep. I’m going back to Chicago. What happened today Stupid Halloween, stupid party Parties are nothing but halloween’s a big deal around here. Your mom just got asked to do something for the Rattlebones. Even lucie looked up at that Really? Everyone wants to do that, Annabel’s always telling people that her mom practically runs it but I don’t think she gets to be out there---could I help? She says she’s not doing it I don’t want to You have to I’ll think about it If I can’t do that for Halloween I want to go back to Chicago Not happening, we agreed, you’re here until we both go visit at thanksgiving (and she was hopeing not to do that) I’ll think about it I guess you’re doing Halloween I hate you. I’m not. But she knew she would.

There’s actually zero interiority in here, which forced me to add it later but only where the dialogue didn’t already convey it. Which leads me to today’s replay, which is one I needed: what’s the difference between showing—in internal dialogue—and telling? Bc we don’t want to info dump, and yet also our characters need to reflect on their past or think things they don’t say. This episode is me, Sarina and Jess talking about the difference. I hope it’s as helpful to you as it was to me!

Original show notes

The whole “am I showing, or am I telling” inner debate can be tough in every part of a novel, memoir or nonfiction-with-elements-of-memoir draft. You don’t want to “tell” about the action. You don’t want to “tell” about the setting. And goodness knows you don’t want to “tell” what the character is feeling.

Except when you do. Sometimes a little telling, in the form of inner dialogue, is exactly what the reader needs to feel a part of the story, not just the happenings. Sarina, Jess and KJ are all in for a conversation about how to immerse a reader in emotions, reactions, fears, self-doubt and even self-deception.

Got an inner dialogue question you’re wrestling with? Try sharing it in our Facebook group—and for other burning questions, small and large, email us at amwriting@substack.com. We can’t respond to every email, but we might answer your question on an upcoming show—or even invite you on for a little coaching.

Links and quotes from the pod:

From In Her Boots:

“Jasmine was still a little leery of the animals, so I set out to charm her with them. **Here’s what my editor said here: Maybe Rhett could think here about how the animals always made her feel good and she wants to impart some of that to Jasmine, who is stretching so far outside her comfort zone to help Rhett? This could be a nice friendship moment to show Rhett caring about Jasmine.** After we fed the entire crew—which would make any human popular—I gave Jas Brownie’s curry comb and showed her the places where he loved to be scratched, and together we groomed the little pony to a sheen, Jas brushing while I pulled his mane and tail. Jas ran inside and emerged with a bandana that we tied in his forelock, giving him a rakish look suited to his personality, and at the same time we both pulled out our phones.”

Here’s the revision:

“Some barn time would absolutely help me feel better. If Jas was a little more comfortable with them, I knew she would feel the same way, and I wanted that for her. I didn’t care about the Maggie part of it. I’d overheard her on the phone with Zale last night, and I wanted her to know that the farm was a refuge for her no matter what. After we fed the entire crew—which would make any human popular—I gave Jas Brownie’s curry comb and showed her the places where he loved to be scratched, and together we groomed the little pony to a sheen, Jas brushing while I pulled his mane and tail. Jas ran inside and emerged with a bandana that we tied in his forelock, giving him a rakish look suited to his personality, and at the same time we both pulled out our phones.”

From We Are Not Like Them:

p. 113 “I’m relieved to see that the crowd really is peaceful, so many faces filled with righteous conviction and purpose. Nonetheless, my cynicism kicks in. Ain’t nothing changed but the music. All the clever signs and chants, the people who showed up just so they could post it to their social media, what does it add up to?”

From Rosaline Palmer Takes the Cake:

p. 161 “She laughed and then hoped he’d meant her to.”

p. 179 “Rosaline didn’t want to jinx it, and possibly she was reading too much into one ambiguously encouraging look from Marianne Wolvercote, but she thought she could do okay this week. Possibly even well? After all, she had a strong concept. And the part of her that used to do homework under test conditions was now secretly rather glad to get to practice in an unfamiliar kitchen.”

Also mentioned:

Beach Read by Emily Henry

Talia Hibbert

#AmReading

Jess: The Triumph of Seeds: How Grains, Nuts, Kernels, Pulses, and Pips Conquered the Plant Kingdom and Shaped Human History by Thor Hanson

KJ: We Are Not Like Them by Christine Pride & Jo Piazza

Sarina: The Enneagram in Love: A Roadmap for Building and Strengthening Romantic Relationships by Stephanie Barron Hall

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Restart Your Work after an Unplanned Pause Nov 10, 2023

Ok, we probably don’t feel as cheery as that little subtitle sounded after we’ve been away from a project for a while. Most of the things that yank us away from our work unexpectedly aren’t good things. (There must be exceptions?)

In my case, I got sick, and then I overdid and got sicker, and the result is a project I haven’t touched in a week. Which is SO not that bad or that long—sometimes things happen and it’s a month or more before we can get back into the work—but it made me think about what I do when I’m forced to stop and re-start.

* Forgive yourself. Might you have been able to do better? Maybe. Would a real writer have managed to work through whatever it was? Maybe. And maybe, if you’d really had to, you would have. Or maybe not—sometimes even people with deadlines and editors and fans clamoring need to put their work aside for a while, because sometimes you just cannot. Or sometimes you do anyway, and maybe, as I once did, you turn in an article during one of the worst weeks of your life thus far and it includes a recipe for Miso Roasted Cod in which you forget to include the miso, which is published because apparently there were no backstops at this particular entity, thus ending your recipe writing career forevermore. (Obviously that worked out ok, but 21 years ago I would have told you my life was over.) Let it go. You needed time. You took it. It’s for the best.

* Check in. Is it really time to get back to this? Can you look ahead and see yourself getting back into whatever routine is in the cards for you now, or are you setting yourself up to disappoint yourself? Look, only you know. Some people write at the worst times. Some people wait for better times. Sometimes those are the same people at different points in their lives. It is okay to hunch over a laptop under circumstances when people think you should be doing something else, and it is okay to decide to re-read all of Anne of Green Gables even when the waters are calm again.

* Do your commit-thing. If it’s time and you’re ready, do whatever you do when you start something. Tell a friend, tell the world, stick a post-it on your desktop, re-up your timer app on your phone, make a list or a plan or a mood board, make a promise, light a candle, stand outside and scream up at the clouds to tell them you’re back in the game, babies!

* Allow for some prep-time. Maybe you need to read over your project or your outline. (Or maybe you shouldn’t, because going in an unexpected direction could be a great thing.) A thinking-walk or drive could be good, or a re-read of your favorite motivational or craft book, or even just a page of it. If you’re a pre-writer, start there and let yourself hit a downhill before you start actually sticking in all the punctuation.

* Start somewhere easy. Maybe that’s right where you left off. Maybe it’s a scene you’ve been writing in your head. Maybe it’s the end or a new beginning.

* Go all in. Once you open the file, stay in the file. You’re out of practice. This will be harder than it was last time. Your text messages, your laundry, that annoyingly long pinkie nail, all will beckon. (Actually it’s ok to go trim the nail. But you do NOT NEED YOUR PHONE to do that.) Set a timer, throw your phone across the room, handcuff yourself to your desk, do whatever you do. Maybe for a teeeeeny bit less time than usual. But do it. And then stop even if you’re rolling. Every day this will get easier if you just do the thing.

* You might need to go back and forgive yourself again. Maybe this is harder than you thought. Maybe it feels like you’ve lost the thread. Maybe you don’t feel like you’ll ever, every get it going. What would you say to a friend right now? Bet it’s nicer than whatever you’re saying to yourself. You will keep going. Be kind.

* SAVE THIS POST. The time will come when you need it again. And so do I.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How Sarina's Reading Journal Makes Her a Better Novelist: Episode 382 Oct 27, 2023

Hi. 🙋‍♀️ My name is Sarina, and I’m a bit obsessive about stationery products. I’m always on the lookout for a good excuse to buy new pens or a new notebook. But bear with me, because this one is 100% valid: every year I buy a new reading journal, and I use it well.

The journal itself is nothing special. It’s just a 200 page B5 (or composition book sized) notebook where I keep track of all the books I’ve read. (Or, in many cases, books I started and did not finish. I’m a big DNFer, because life is short and there are too many books to cover.)

At the front of the journal I keep a list of the gems—the books I want to recommend. Plus a long list of things I want to read.

But 99% of the pages are given over to my thoughts about the books themselves. Sometimes I only write two lines, and sometimes I cover two pages.

When I first began tracking my reading like this, three years ago, I wasn’t very precise about what I wrote down. It was only after I formed a structure for my notes that the process became truly useful to me as a novelist. These days I always note some very specific things. Here they are, and here’s why they help:

1. Genre

After I note the title and the author, I write down the genre.

Okay—sue me—I actually have a cute set of self-inking stamps that flag the genre. A scary face for thrillers, a dinosaur for anything magical, and hearts for romance. But it would work just as well to write “thriller” at the top of the page.

Then, as I read, I make specific notes about the subgenre. Is it a domestic thriller with romantic elements? Is it a romance with a subplot of suspense?

We’re always told that our books have to fit in one specific spot on the shelf, or they’ll be unsellable. But the more you force yourself to notice, the more fluid genre appears to be.

Here’s an example: I love Karen Slaughter’s Girl Forgotten. It’s a procedural, because the main character is a US Marshall. But here’s the catch—it’s literally her first day on the job. So she doesn’t know what she’s doing. And there’s an element of the crime that’s deeply personal to her, which gives the book more of a domestic (girl with a problem vibe.)

Don’t let them put you in a box, at least not until it’s time to actually package the book.

2. Structure

Next, I make notes about the book’s structure. Is it single POV, or multi? Past tense? Present? First person or third? Do all the chapters take place in a linear timeline? And I write down which characters have POVs, as they occur.

The thing is, I’ve been reading novels for many decades now, and I thought I was well versed with all the possible structures. But by forcing myself to note them down, I see more about each book’s structure than I ever had before. And once in a while I learn some brand new tricks from a close analysis of structure.

Example: the psychological thriller Darling Rose Gold by Stephanie Wroblet has a really diabolical structure that kind of blew my mind.

3. Predictions

If I’m reading a book with elements of mystery or suspense, I always stop at 35% or 50% to write down how many suspects there are. Who am I meant to suspect?

And—crucially—I take a guess at the perpetrator or other secrets yet to be unveiled.

I've learned a surprising amount by doing this. For a mystery or thriller, there are usually 3 to 5 suspects. Once in a while, I come up on a book with so many more, like The Last Party by Clare Macintosh.

But what's really been interesting is how often I am correct about who the villain is! You’d think that my ability to guess the outcome would hamper my enjoyment of a book. If I'm able to guess the suspect halfway through, doesn't that mean the author failed?

Nope. The truth is actually the reverse—some of the books where I’d figured it out early turned out to be my favorites. And sometimes I’m right at 40% but the author changes my mind before I am finally vindicated. **Rubs hands together maniacally**

Bottom line—making guesses like this has helped me understand what readers of plot-driven books are really there for—to match wits with the author. Besides, a poorly executed twist is much worse than no twist at all.

4. Setting

I always write down the setting. And if I get through the book and have trouble remembering what city we were in, that’s telling, too.

5. Post-it for Quotes

Lately, I've been putting one 3 x 3 full stick post-it on each book’s page. Then I try to write a couple of chapter openers on that sticky note.

Personally, I find that opening a chapter is tricky for me, so I'd like to keep this top-of-mind as a way of observing how other people do it.

Sometimes I use the sticky note just for a particular turn of phrase that I enjoy, or some other bit of writing that I appreciate.

I guess the point of this exercise is to demystify great writing for myself. Sometimes the best writing is the simplest, and I could make myself crazy imagining that all effective writing sounds like Shakespeare.

6. Flaws

Usually, I write a no-holds-barred review in just a few sentences. It's worth, noting that nobody is ever going to see this book. It's for me and me alone so I don't have to save anyone's feelings when I write: "great setup; terrible execution." Or, "saggy in the middle. Couldn't stick the landing." “WHERE WAS HER EDITOR?”

Then again, the way to make this exercise truly useful is to write down what I might have done differently. At what point in the narrative should the author have taken a different turn?

If you can fix someone else’s book, you can learn to fix your own.

7. What’s the Point?

Finally, I try to jot down the book’s main point. This book is about trusting your community. This book is about the lengths women will go for bodily autonomy. This book asks how much we owe our families. Etc.

In conclusion

I promise you that I don't write down every single one of these things for every single book. Some books, frankly, aren’t worthy of such attention.

But when I manage to dig into a novel, in such a way that most of these questions are answerable? Those notes become invaluable to me. Writing them down makes the lesson stick. And by forcing myself to view novel from some of these frameworks, I have learned many valuable lessons about my own writing.

If the idea of being a book coach niggles at you every time you hear anything about our sponsor, Author Accelerator, I have good news: they’ve fully revised and updated both the fiction and non-fiction book coach certification program. With more than 100 hours of training, videos, case studies, and worksheets, Author Accelerator’s program teaches you the key editorial skills, client-management strategies, and tools needed to help writers reach their goals and to help you start a thriving book coaching business.

But maybe you’ve got no doubt it’s a great program—you’re just not sure if book coaching right for YOU, or if you can pull it off. Well, Author Accelerator wants it to be the right call for you, too. They’re offering a $99 5-day challenge all about getting your business idea out of your head and onto the page—but #AmWriting listeners get it for half off. Head to bookcoaches.com/podcast and enter the code PODCAST at checkout for 50% off. bookcoaches.com/podcast

And if you’re asking yourself—so why charge for the challenge, if they want it to be right for me too? Because if you pony up, you’ll really DO it. So if it’s time to stop dreaming and start acting, there you go.

I’ve been through this, and I can tell you that this is more than just an online course. You’ll take the skills you learn and apply them with real-life clients through three practicums designed to help you practice helping authors go from confusion to clarity with their novel idea. Yes, you work with real writers, yes it’s terribly nerve-wracking—but the author I worked with during one of my practicums just got a book deal with that project! This is real, kids—and it works.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Find the Right Speaking Agent: Ep 381 Oct 20, 2023

Jess here, with detailed answers to the questions raised in the #AmWriting Facebook group about finding, contracting, and working with a speaking agent.

I have tried both going it alone and managing my own speaking career and working with an agent on an exclusive basis. Both paths can work, both require a big investment of time, and both have their own obstacles.

Keep the questions coming in the FB group or by email, and we will keep answering them!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

National Novel Planning Month (that should be a thing) Oct 13, 2023

I’m a fan of NaNoWriMo—National Novel Writing Month, in which the plan is to write 50,000 words of a novel in November. It’s about 1666 words a day, a little more if you take off for Thanksgiving, and it’s do-able to get to 50K words. But realistically, most people’s result, even if they “win” isn’t a draft of a novel. It’s usually the rambling draft of the first half or two-thirds at best. Because even if your preferred method of writing is to “pants” (As opposed to plot), getting a novel draft to actually END is perhaps the most difficult part. Even the “murky middle” is easier to draft than those concluding scenes.

But NaNoWriMo can—and has, for many people—end in an actual draft that becomes a novel. There’s something about the energy of the month and the challenge of imposing those 1666 words on days that are already full of countless things that really works for many of us. The Chicken Sisters began (after years of noodling) as a NaNoWriMo project in 2018, and plenty of other authors also attribute their first drafts to NaNo. I drafted Playing the Witch Card during November, too. The key is to make a plan and stick to it (and not abandon it if it bleeds into December, either). There’s nothing I love more than making a plan—so here are my keys to NaNoWriMo success.

First: Recognize if this is for you. For me, the combined challenge of confining the draft to a month and the ridiculousness of making it November—hello, Thanksgiving, all the things—actually makes me more determined. Tell me I can’t do a thing and watch my dust. I love the sheer ridiculousness and arbitrariness of shoehorning this in. It fits perfectly into the model of things I’ve achieved in the past. So that’s the question: when have you been successful at seeing a project through to the end? Did it look like NaNoWriMo? Or maybe it was similar, with more or less accountability. Did it have a set schedule, did you tell people about it or keep it secret? Do you thrive on self-imposed deadlines or loathe them?

If this whole game feels wrong or burdensome to you—but you still want to draft a book—then quit this right now and make your own game, but don’t let yourself off the hook. The reason most people never write a book, even if they dream of doing it, is… they never write a book, they just dream of doing it. Go ahead and reject NaNo if it’s not for you—but use this moment to find a way of getting it done that is. (You might give Sarina’s Episode 352, how to write a novel in 3 months, a listen.)

Second: It’s not cheating to know what your book is about, it’s smart. If sitting down on day one and writing it was a dark and stormy night and going on from there has worked for you, go for it. Most of us need more (and if you’ve never FINISHED a book by starting off that way, it’s safe to guess you need more). In a perfect world, you’d go through the processes we describe during summer 2023’s Idea Factory (Episodes 366-373) AND the Blueprint for a book series (Episodes 322-330).

If nothing else, you should know these three things: What’s the book about (the plot), why are you writing it/why does the world need it (the emotional arc) and where does the story start, peak and then end. Those last can be vague if you prefer—the killer traps her and her dog in a mountain cabin, she manages to escape and returns for revenge—or much more specific if you know who the killer is, or why the couple splits and then reunites. On the one hand I do better with specifics; on the other, those specifics are nearly always wrong. So go figure.

Third: You need a plan for what you will write when. Most of us noodle around wildly in the beginning of a book and then get stuck in the middle and hit that 50K without grappling with the end. I try to force myself to stick to a schedule: Week one: the beginning, Week two: the first half of the middle, Week Three, finish the middle and Week four: write to the end. If I’m not there—and I never am, it’s impossible—I “prewrite” to the next place I need to be. That means a scrawl of what needs to happen and it’s truly gibberish. Because I love y’all, and because I don’t think people often imagine writers are exaggerating when we talk about “shitty first drafts”, here’s a picture of some pre-writing/outlining from my current project.

The bar is LOW. Why why why, indeed.

Fourth, let’s say I get to 50K and the end of November—yay!—but I didn’t write The End. Keep going forward—do not revise until you’ve ended this draft somehow unless you’ve successfully finished other novels by revising before you hit the end. It doesn’t have to be the right ending. It probably isn’t the right ending. But until you write it (or at the very least pre-write it but it has to include the actual things that happen and are felt and said, not just end this somehow), you can pretend everything is going in the right direction when it probably isn’t. When we revise before we finishing, we’re almost certainly revising the wrong thing.

And if you don’t “win?” Revise that schedule, re-make the rules, take a mulligan and keep going until you do. Don’t abandon that book. Even if it’s the worst book ever. We all write the worst books ever, and sometimes we fix them and sometimes we don’t, but until you prove to yourself that you can finish a draft, you’ll never write a better one.

Finally, keep this mantra in mind. Cross-stitch it on a pillow, put it on a post-it, get a tattoo. Good writing comes last. Don’t polish that sentence until you know it belongs, don’t perfect that scene until it’s earned its place in the book.

One last word on NaNoWriMo: If you want to do it, if you wish you could do it, if you’ve always dreamed of doing it… do it. It’s 2 hours a day for 30 days. You can find them. You can make it happen. But… you’re the only one who can.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

A Million Little Pieces that can Make or Break a Speaking Engagement: Episode 379 Oct 06, 2023

Hello #AmWriters! Jess here. I have been getting a lot of messages via the #AmWriting Facebook group and email about details that can make or break a speaking engagement. I like having a podcast episode to point these people to, so here’s the podcast episode I wish I’d had before I received my first invitation to speak.

We talk negotiation, fees, contracts (while remembering that while I went to law school I remember precious little so this is not legal advice), problem-solving, bad hotels, great hotels, flights, and reimbursement. Plus a lot more.

As always, I hope this is useful to you, and happy speaking!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Six Seasons in One Episode: Cookbooks as Memoir with Gesine Bullock-Prado, Ep 378 Sep 29, 2023

I’ve been wanting to talk cookbook writing with Gesine Bullock-Prado for some time now, and was thrilled to get the chance to sit in her home and baking school in what was once Freegrace Tavern, built in 1794. Portraits of Freegrace and Jerusha hang in the entryway, overseeing (and judging?) all visitors to the house (pic below).

You can find Gesine at her website, where you will also find information about her baking school, Sugar Glider Kitchen. Warning: her classes sell out almost immediately, so you’d better sign up for her emails and have good reflexes.

Of course you can find My Vermont Table at all the usual places, but please choose your local independent bookseller if you can.

If your fall could use a little witchy reading fun, you should hop online or over to your favorite bookstore and order a copy of KJ’s latest, Playing the Witch Card. Think grown-up Gilmore Girls meets Practical Magic, with a family deck of troublesome Tarot cards stalking a new generation. You’ve listened to KJ talk about getting the work done—now go check out the result, and pick up a copy for a friend, too. Guaranteed fall vibe, no pumpkin spice necessary.

Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes&Noble Still North Books and Bar

Enrollment is now open for Author Accelerator’s new and improved fiction book coach certification program! Turn your love of reading into a career you love with a self-paced program you can access from anywhere. With more than 100 hours of training, videos, case studies, and worksheets, Author Accelerator’s program teaches you the key editorial skills, client-management strategies, and tools needed to help writers reach their goals and to help you start a thriving book coaching business.

Learn more and enroll now at bookcoaches.com/podcast.

More interested in nonfiction? The nonfiction certification program launches next month! Visit bookcoaches.com/podcast and sign up for their newsletter to stay in-the-know.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Writing for Tweendom: Jamie Sumner on writing difficult topics and the glory of middle grade fiction Sep 22, 2023

Jess here! Jamie Sumner and I talked over the summer about her middle grade books, mainly because I’m a fan. She does not shy away from difficult topics - substance use disorder, financial insecurity, physical disability, autism, and anxiety. She’s been on the show before (here’s her first interview) but I had to have her on to talk about her new book, Maid for It, out September 5, 2023.

Jamie’s website: https://jamie-sumner.com

#AmReading

Jamie: The Bandit Queens by Parini Shroff

One True Loves by Taylor Jenkins Reid

Jess: The Fires of Vesuvius by Mary Beard

Pompeii by Robert Harris

If your fall could use a little witchy reading fun, you should hop online or over to your favorite bookstore and order a copy of KJ’s latest, Playing the Witch Card. Think grown-up Gilmore Girls meets Practical Magic, with a family deck of troublesome Tarot cards stalking a new generation. You’ve listened to KJ talk about getting the work done—now go check out the result, and pick up a copy for a friend, too. Guaranteed fall vibe, no pumpkin spice necessary.

Bookshop.orgAmazonBarnes&NobleStill North Books and Bar

Learn more and enroll now at bookcoaches.com/podcast.

More interested in nonfiction? The nonfiction certification program launches next month! Visit bookcoaches.com/podcast and sign up for their newsletter to stay in-the-know.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flinging a Fall Book out into the world Sep 15, 2023

Sarina’s on the struggle bus.

Jess is back to non-fiction and killing it on TikTok.

KJ’s in book launch mode and also killing it on TikTok. Want to help share Playing the Witch Card with the world? Everything you need is HERE (and this is also something every author should do, every time).

Also, BUY MY BOOK. (This is KJ, can you tell?) You’ll like it. I promise. So will your mother, daughter, sister, partner and next door neighbor.

Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes&Noble Still North Books and Bar

#AmReading

KJ: Mistborn, Brandon Sanderson (for more about my Barnes and Noble visit, check out my free #AmReading weekly email of book recs—and subscribe!

Jess: Think Again, Adam Grant

That’s it for the shownotes!

(She who takes the screenshot times the screenshot…)

Learn more and enroll now at bookcoaches.com/podcast.

More interested in nonfiction? The nonfiction certification program launches next month! Visit bookcoaches.com/podcast and sign up for their newsletter to stay in-the-know.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Reinvention Marketing: Selling Your Book for Years After Pub Day Sep 08, 2023

Hi #AmWriters! Jess here to talk about what I’ve been up to this summer and hoping some of it proves helpful for you. That’s why we started this podcast years ago - to flatten the learning curve for other writers.

Here I am, almost a decade out from the publication of The Gift of Failure and I have this new book, The Addiction Inoculation, on a topic that can be scary to some people (substance use disorder! eeeek!) as you know, I’m always looking for ways to get books in the hands of new readers, get information into the heads of people who need to know it, and keep my speaking career afloat. This summer, I did a massive marketing re-invention because the speaking engagements that have been going particularly well are not about one book or the other, but both. I’ve been using The Gift of Failure as a Trojan Horse to get the Addiction Inoculation substance use prevention content out to audience members who need to hear it but who might be reluctant to attend a talk advertised solely as ABOUT SUBSTANCE USE PREVENTION.

Behind the scenes moment, I just texted Sarina and KJ in our group chat:

Anyway, back to marketing. I came up with some new ideas and while researching those, stumbled upon a conference aimed squarely at the people doing substance use prevention work on the ground. I decided to go to the conference to meet them and get my book into their hands, and I tell you all about how it went.

I wanted to share what I learned and some strategies that were helpful to me as well as a reminder that the success of our books does not hinge on pub day. Sure, a great pub day is helpful and can get you on one of those coveted lists, but there’s a lot to love about the slow burn book, the perennial seller, the evergreen content.

#AmReading:

Autonomy Supportive Parenting by Emily Edlynn, PhD

The Woodkin by Alexander James

Never Enough by Jennifer Breheny Wallace

Erasing the Finish Line by Ana Homayoun

Middle School Superpowers by Phyllis Fagell

Growing Up in Public by Devorah Heitner

Raising Empowered Athletes by Kirsten Jones

Calm the Chaos by Dayna Abraham

Hi! KJ here, invading Jess’s shownotes to say BUY MY BOOK. Playing the Witch Card, out 9/12/23 in US and UK. You’ll like it. I promise. So will your mother, daughter, sister, partner and next door neighbor.

Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes&Noble Still North Books and Bar

Looking for Workshops Against Empire? There's been a change of plans--that will be offered in November now. Visit susandefreitas.com to learn more. Enrollment is now open for Author Accelerator’s new and improved fiction book coach certification program! Turn your love of reading into a career you love with a self-paced program you can access from anywhere. With more than 100 hours of training, videos, case studies, and worksheets, Author Accelerator’s program teaches you the key editorial skills, client-management strategies, and tools needed to help writers reach their goals and to help you start a thriving book coaching business.

Learn more and enroll now at bookcoaches.com/podcast.

More interested in nonfiction? The nonfiction certification program launches next month! Visit bookcoaches.com/podcast and sign up for their newsletter to stay in-the-know.

Discover Sarina Bowen and her book marketing fun (and other neat goodies) on TikTok!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

From Idea to Execution: Building a Book Sep 01, 2023

Hi all! Jess here! Welcome to a new season!

We are back with our usual #AmWriting content and I’m incredibly excited about this episode.

Seven years ago, I was speaking in the school library of a small elementary school in California - the entire event was a favor for a friend - and met a reader named Kirsten Jones. I love small events because I get to spend so much time talking with the audience members at the book signing. One of the last people to get her book signed was Kirsten, a former NCAA athlete and aspiring writer. She had this idea, she said, a Gift of Failure but for the parents of athletes. YES, I said. Write the book. We need this book. Please let me know how I can be of help to you so this book can be in the world.

Seven years later, here we are. Raising Empowered Athletes was born August 8, 2023.

In this episode, Jess and Kirsten talk about the journey from a beautiful, scary, secret idea whispered to another writer at a book event to publication day and everything in between.

Links:

Kirsten’s website

Raising Empowered Athletes at Bookshop.org

Fiction writers! If you’ve set a goal of finishing a publishable draft in a year’s time, and are looking for an in-depth resource to help you through each step of the writing and publishing process, Author Accelerator certified book coach Susan DeFreitas has an exciting new offering you don’t want to miss.

Workshops Against Empire includes five courses on story structure, crafting scene, mastering POV, querying and pitching, and more, with the goal of helping you reach YOUR goal with confidence. It’s an immersive program that’s available in a variety of formats and price points, including a self-paced DIY course bundle.

To learn more about the course - and the year-long group coaching program coming next year for fiction writers - visit bookcoaches.com/podcasts to sign up for a free sneak peek with Susan DeFreitas and Author Accelerator CEO Jennie Nash that promises to include tips you can use now to finally finish that work in progress.

Want to know more about what Jess is up to? Check out her IG (and cute doggo pics for an easy cheer-me-up!)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Never Carved in Stone: Letting Ideas Evolve Aug 25, 2023

In our Idea Factory wrap-up, Jennie and I talk about the ways ideas need to change and evolve throughout the writing process—while you develop them and even in between drafts. Don’t let the idea take charge—the writer has to keep running the show.

Good news for memoir writers! Y’all probably know how much I love Jennie Nash’s Blueprint books. They really are the closest thing I’ve found to a guide for getting through draft after draft. I start with them, and I go back to them when I’m stuck. The Blueprints keep me on track and help me write the book I set out to write for the readers I hope to reach.

Her newest, Blueprint for a Memoir: How to Write a Memoir for the Marketplace is out now!

I think this Blueprint is Jennie’s best yet, with insights into story-telling that I’ll be using in all my work.

Want to read the first chapter of Playing the Witch Card? Then subscribe to KJ’s #AmReading email and be the first to get a sneak peek at her latest!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ideas and Nonfiction: Your Book Idea Contains Multitudes Aug 18, 2023

That first non-fiction book may seem easy—it’s your THING, the thing you know—but you still have to hone it down. Is it advice, information, the story of how you learned what you know? Inspirational, confrontational, aspirational? And then comes the next book. And the next. And it still always comes back to the idea.

Her newest, Blueprint for a Memoir: How to Write a Memoir for the Marketplace is out now!

I think this Blueprint is Jennie’s best yet, with insights into story-telling that I’ll be using in all my work.

Are you following Sarina on Instagram? It’s full of writing inspiration with stickers and trees tracking her goals (no seriously, check it out).

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

When Good Ideas Go Bad (the most common mistakes writers make) Aug 11, 2023

You’ve no doubt heard people say of non-fiction books “that should have been an article”. Not every idea can sustain an entire book or story. Many things that feel like ideas are really set-ups: what if there was a school for dragon riders? Yes, absolutely, cool, but the who and the what happens and the why do we care never go away. In this episode, we talk about turning the flicker of an idea into a full light bulb, and rescuing an idea that didn’t turn out to be quite enough.

Her newest, Blueprint for a Memoir: How to Write a Memoir for the Marketplace is out now!

I think this Blueprint is Jennie’s best yet, with insights into story-telling that I’ll be using in all my work.

Have you checked out #AmReading? It’s KJ’s weekly email on books and bookish enthusiasms, and you’ll find everything from a surprising take on who’s doing the best Austen adaptations now and why to a book for anyone who felt saved and seen by their favorite childhood authors. You’ll love it!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Memoirs for the Marketplace: A Blueprint for Success Aug 04, 2023

Part two of the memoir conversation: yes you do need an idea for a memoir. Gotta narrow things down, figure out what you want to share and why and most of all, why anyone would want to read it. There’s a difference between a memoir, and a memoir that the market will embrace—and we tell you how to find it.

Her newest, Blueprint for a Memoir: How to Write a Memoir for the Marketplace is out now!

I think this Blueprint is Jennie’s best yet, with insights into story-telling that I’ll be using in all my work.

Hey you! Are you following KJ on TikTok? YES, KJ. Please do so now.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

You Are the Protagonist (memoirs need ideas too) with Rachael Herron Jul 28, 2023

But wait, isn’t a memoir a book about my life? What do you mean, I need an idea?

We mean, you need an idea. Because your whole life is… really not book material. But one thematic chunk of it? One recurring event, one series of catastrophes, one relationship, one moment that changed everything?

Now you’re talking—and so are we, to the amazing Rachael Herron, host of the How Do You Write Podcast, author of Fast Draft Your Memoir and leader of a recurring, very hard to get into multi-week class of the same name. We talk about what does and doesn’t serve as memoir material and how to get from a vague glimmer of an idea to something that will carry you (and your reader) through chapter after chapter, and we quote a line from Cami Osmond: In memoir there’s the what and the so what.

Go where the sparkle is.

A few assorted links from the pod:

The Art of the Book Proposal, Eric Maisel

Eat Pray Love, Elizabeth Gilbert

Broken, Furiously Happy, Jenny Lawson

The Art of Memoir, Mary Karr

Devotion, Inheritance, Hourglass, Slow Motion, Dani Shapiro

Bittersweet, Susan Cain

I’m Glad My Mom Died, Jennette McCurdy

When Women Were Birds, Terry Tempest Williams

A Life in Stitches, Rachael Herron

I Miss You When I Blink, Bomb Shelter (Memoirs in Essays), Mary Laura Philpott

Essays that start light, then hit hard: Episode 312 with Mary Laura Philpott

Still Writing, Dani Shapiro

The Shepherd’s Life, James Rebanks

Her newest, Blueprint for a Memoir: How to Write a Memoir for the Marketplace Is coming August 1, 2023. If you’re seeing this in July 2023, there’s a fantastic event available only to those who pre-order: a live—or recorded—deep dive into the four key steps of memoir writing, with a chance for Jennie Nash to select you for a live Hot Seat coaching session to review your work and an entry to win the Grand Prize: a written review of your Blueprint and an exclusive 50-minute strategy session with Jennie.

I think this Blueprint is Jennie’s best yet, with insights into story-telling that I’ll be using in all my work. Find all the details for the book and the pre-order event at bookcoaches.com/podcasts.

Hey you! Are you following Jess on TikTok?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Decide if Your Book Idea is Solid (or Solid Enough) Jul 21, 2023

This is the third in our 2023 Summer Idea Factory series. Jennie Nash is back, and this time, she and I are talking about the process of testing out ideas, talking through them, and spending enough time with them to figure out if they’ll sustain you through an entire book—and if you want them to.

Are you on TikTik? Check out Sarina’s feed for plenty of examples of great book promotion fun!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Airport Game (or, how to come up with 8 ideas on a 3 hour long flight) Jul 14, 2023

THIS IS MY FAVORITE THING EVER. Jennie Nash and I (KJ here) are talking ideas this summer: getting them, keeping them, taking them from baby spark idea to big-enough-to-hold-a draft idea. In this episode, I lay out my favorite technique for forcing myself to do two things: thing of something beyond the single spark I’m attached to at any given moment and take all of the sparks I can generate and push them harder until they get to a point where they might just stand on their own.

I hope you like it as much as I do. If you play the airport game, I’d love to hear about it! Just reply to this email and tell me how it went.

If you’re big on scrolling Instagram, why not give Jess a follow? Warning: addictive puppy pics ahead!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to the Idea Factory (Good Writing Comes Last, Part 2) Jul 07, 2023

Writers, I have IDEAS. Usually a lot of them. 99% of them go nowhere. You can feel me bubbling over with ideas in every episode and even in the title of many episodes. There is so much I always want to say.

Like me, Jennie Nash is an idea cannon. So between us, we come up with a lot of plans. This is all to say that first: this episode, and the 7 “Idea Factory” episodes that follow, are the result of one such idea. At the beginning of this year, I (It’s KJ here) was deciding on what to do for what I hope will be my fourth novel, and Jennie and I got to talking, as we often do, about the difference between a “spark” and an actual, full on IDEA.

In this episode, we talk about what makes a full idea and why it’s so fantastic, in memoir, fiction and non-fiction, to have that idea in hand before you start writing a book—or why, when you hit a wall in drafting, the answer often involves going back and figuring out what that idea was in the first place.

It’s the first of 8 Idea Factory Episodes that will take us through my process for coming up with ideas, kicking their tires, and letting them evolve in fiction as well as involve sitting down with guests to talk more in depth about non-fiction and memoir ideas (because yes, you need an “idea” even for a book that’s based on your own life.

Every time I sit down to write, I wish it were easier. One of my most common thoughts is that I wish there were an instruction book. I was a gold star student back in the day. Just tell me how many words to write and about what, teach! I’m on it.

Sadly writing doesn’t work that way—but Jennie Nash’s books, Blueprint for a Book and Blueprint for Nonfiction, really are the closest thing I’ve found to a guide for getting through draft after draft. I start with them, and I go back to them when I’m stuck. The Blueprints keep me on track and help me write the book I set out to write for the readers I hope to reach. They give me tools to figure out the answers to questions that I’ve been known to avoid, like “why now” and “why does the reader care”.

But even more than that, the Blueprints serve as a reminder that while writing a book is hard, it’s do-able. It’s not magic, and there’s no muse. There’s just going at it, again and again, until you get it done. Blueprint for a Book and Blueprint for Nonfiction are available on Amazon and you can pre-order her newest: Blueprint for a Memoir: How to Write a Memoir for the Marketplace—coming August 1. Pre-order that one, and there’s a super cool bonus.

Pssst: if you love #AmWriting, kick in some $$ to support us and get bonuses and appreciation. Lots of appreciation!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Start a Novel (and keep going) Episode 365 Jul 01, 2023

I did a call with a writer this week who really is just getting started, with a few short stories finished and dreams of the future, and after we talked at probably unnecessary length about the fundamental truth that writing is hard and you have to actually DO it, not just think about it and plan for it, so annoying, she asked me how I start a new project*.

This episode is my answer, pretty much—because I’ve just done exactly that. My first outline document for the book I’m working on is dated 2/15; I opened a scrivener doc in March, there were 3 chapters in early April and I’m heading to the finish line on the first draft as I write (which would be quite fast for me so please do note that it’s a very very very first draft).

So I have just started. Here’s how.

And here are links to last year’s Blueprint for a Book series, in which Jennie Nash and I talked about all the stages of starting all the things:

Find Your Why: Blueprint for a Book Step 1

What's Your Point? Blueprint for a Book Step 2

Who Will Read My Book? Know Your Market: Blueprint for a Book Step 3

Your Jacket Copy is Your Promise to the Reader: Blueprint for a Book Step 4

There Must Be Change: Blueprint for a Book Step 5

What's the Structure of Your Narrative? Blueprint for a Book Step 6

How to Drive that Narrative Forward: Blueprint for a Book Step 7

One Outline to Rule Them All (Even if You Hate Outlining): Blueprint for a Book Step 8

But Does this Book Work? Blueprint for a Book Step 9

How to Go From Planning a Book to Writing One: Blueprint for a Book Step 10

And—starting next week—a whole summer series on getting the IDEA, refining it, testing it, poking it and revising it. You’re gonna love it.

*And then she asked how to get an agent because… we are who we are, and everyone asks that!

LINKS

The Idea: The Seven Elements of a Viable Story for Screen, Stage or Fiction, Erik Bork

Save the Cat Writes a Novel, Jessica Brody

Blueprint for a Book, Jennie Nash

#AmWriting Prewriting Episode 178 #WriteFaster

Rachael Herron’s How Do You Write Podcast episode 376 with David Ellis

If you love a good writing retreat—especially one that comes with good solid coaching and the chance to meet others who are working on similar projects—here’s one to check out. This fall, three Author Accelerator certified book coaches are offering Mainely Memoir, a retreat for women writers in historic Biddeford, Maine, held over three days in the gorgeous Maine woods in September, with one-on-one coaching both before and after the retreat. It’s the perfect opportunity to give yourself the gift of time and focus so that you can make real progress on your memoir this year. Find out more at www.mainelymemoir.com

Do you get KJ’s Box of Chocolates email—for erratic doses of books and enthusiasms? If not, what are you waiting for?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Summer Reading for Writers (plus a #FlashbackFriday: Episode 269) Jun 23, 2023

Two years ago, Jennie Nash and I (this is KJ) got into a debate about what was the best, most helpful book for a writer’s bookshelf. Almost instantly we realized that we couldn’t choose just one (although if we could, I suspect it’s Save the Cat Writes a Novel for me and Twyla Tharp’s The Creative Habit for Jennie, but even as I write that I’m having second thoughts in favor of Big Magic but I’m just SO ANNOYED with her right now because of the whole take-back-my-book thing) and, yeah.

Anyway. It’s summer reading time, and to my summer reading list I’ve added a few books about writing, starting with Rick Rubin’s The Creative Act: A Way of Being and, yes. Twyla Tharp’s book (it’s taken me this long to get over my resistance but JENNIE IS ALWAYS RIGHT about these things) and adding, for a practical note, Save the Cat Strikes Back by Blake Snyder and The Trope Thesaurus from Jennifer Hilt. (Want my non-professional summer reading list? Subscribe to #AmReading.)

If you’re looking to add to your own professional summer reading, you can’t do better than going back to the series of summer episodes that Jennie and I recorded as a result of that first debate. They’re all listed and linked below, along with the books we discussed, and I’m putting the first of them (Episode 269) here—in which we debate, yes, Big Magic versus The Creative Habit.

Since then, Jennie’s published two Blueprint for a Book books: one each for fiction and nonfiction and, coming later this summer, memoir. They’re all EXCELLENT and highly recommended as well.

Working Bookshelf Episodes:

* Inspiration (Big Magic versus The Creative Habit)

* Plotting (Save the Cat Writes a Novel versus The Situation and the Story)

* Productivity (Productivity with Deep Work versus From 2K to 10K)

* Up Your Game (The Practice versus The Bestseller Code)

* When You're Stuck (The War of Art versus Dear Writer You Need to Quit)

* Getting Published (The Essential Guide to Getting Published versus 78 Reasons Why Your Book May Never Be Published and 14 Reasons Why It Just Might)

* Writing While White (The Anti Racist Writing Workshop, Craft in the Real World, Writing the Other)

* When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This (Start with Why versus How to Write an Autobiographical Novel)

* Writer Comfort Reads (Bird by Bird versus Making a Literary Life)

* Editing (Meander, Spiral, Explode: Design and Pattern in Narrative versus Blueprint for a Book)

Hey - are you following Sarina on Instagram? It’s a great place for romance goodness (and check out her (Surprise!) billboard at 34th and 7th Ave!).

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Satire: writing just below "over-the-top" with Jane Roper Episode 364 Jun 16, 2023

The book is The Society of Shameand one of the many, many ways you can tell it’s satire is that it keeps making people who don’t get it mad. Satire is fiction, hopped up on humor and then amped up by all the things that seem like they couldn't quite happen and yet you know they might. (Another commonality of good satire? The most outrageous bits are often the ones that come straight from the headlines.

The author is Jane Roper, who is also the author of a memoir, Double Time: How I Survived–and Mostly Thrived–Through the First Three Years of Mothering Twins, another novel, Eden Lake, numerous personal essays and humor pieces, and a very eclectic Substack, Jane’s Calamity.

She MAY be the first graduate of the famous Iowa Writer’s Workshop to appear on the pod, and we talk about that, as well as the parenting memoir ghetto. But mostly we’re focused on satire—what it is, how it’s really playing with fire, and why it still needs heart.

A few other satires mentioned:

Dietland, Sarai Walker

The Startup Wife, Tahmima Anam

#AmReading

Jane: The One, Julia Argy

Daughters of Nantucket, Julie Gerstenblatt

KJ: Ms. Demeanor, Elinor Lipman

Find Jane on Instagram - @writerjaneroper

If you love #AmWriting, kick in some $$ to support us and get bonuses (and appreciation!).

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Hate Your Work and Also Sell It-- at the same time. Episode 363 Jun 09, 2023

Howdy from KJ’s office, where I’m trapped because outside these doors, an angry child lies in wait, ready to tell me all I’ve done wrong as a parent over lo these many years. Good thing I had Jess and Sarina to keep me company while we talk about marketing, selling, navigating the socials, blurbing and asking for blurbs and reading blurbs and oh, still writing the whole time.

Links from the pod:

The Flying Pig

The Chain, Adrian McKinty

On Good Authority, Anna David

The Eragon series, Christopher Paolini

Good As Gold, Sarina Bowen

Jess’s daily videos

I’m not linking the dumb lounge chair I’m sorry.

#AmReading

Jess: On Good Authority, Anna David

KJ: Yellowface, R.F. Kuang (The Plot, Who Is Maud Dixon, The Writing Retreat) (note—I wrote more about this in the #AmReading Substack HERE —link also below.)

Sarina: We All Want Impossible Things, Catherine Newman

Ghosts of the Orphanage, Christine Keneally

Hey! Hey you! Are you looking for more book recs? You are going to want to check out KJ’s Bookstagram and her many reasons why you want to pick up that book…

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Talking Fat Talk and Substack Success: Episode 362 with Virginia Sole-Smith Jun 02, 2023

SO. Virginia’s Substack—here it is right here—which also features a podcast, went from 700 people to 4500 people to 28K subscribers. BEFORE her new book, Fat Talk, hit the NYT best-seller list. Wouldn’t you like to hear how?

We’ve got you covered. Replicating her success? Well, that’s never the way it works. But everything we learn helps.

Links from the pod: FAT TALK: Parenting in the Age of Diet Culture@v_solesmith on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok

The Eating Instinct: Food Culture, Body Image, and Guilt in America

#AmReading

Virginia: Momfluenced, Sara Petersen

More Than You’ll Ever Know, Katie Gutierrez

How Not to Drown in a Glass of Water, Angie Cruz

KJ: Dear Committee Members, Julie Schumacher

Hey reader - have you followed Jess on TikTok yet? She publishes videos daily and might just be the resource you need.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flashback Friday: Episode 288 with Joni Cole May 26, 2023

How do I find a writing group and what if they’re mean?

That’s a question we get asked a lot, and we always encourage writers to reach out in our Facebook group or boldly throw it out there anywhere else online that you hang out and see what happens. You don’t even have to trade pages to be a writing group. You look for the kind of support and camaraderie you need.

But if you’ve ever thought of hying yourself off to your local version of Grub Street or our local spot for in-person writer-ness, The Writer’s Center to find your people—or possibly starting an in-person writer-connection-thing of your own, then you’ll want to listen to my conversation with Joni Cole, founder of said Writer’s Center and the author of Toxic Feedback: Helping Writers Survive and Thrive—which is just freshly out in a revised version, which is why we’re bringing this convo back to you now! This new version has half a dozen new chapters, plus new interviews with famous authors who share their own feedback stories--from the inspiring to the deranged. The new chapters cover issues such as:

-- how to overcome imposter syndrome;

-- how to catch yourself when you're resisting feedback that you really need to hear;

-- how to receive and offer feedback on particularly difficult or delicate story material;

-- and one whopper of a story on how to negotiate with your publisher when you absolutely hate their proposed cover of your book (See chapter entitled "Fifty Shades of Writing").

Joni is also the author of Good Naked, and the This Day series, which collects diary entries from women all across the United States on a single day, and the host of the podcast Author, Can I Ask You. Joni and I talk starting writing groups, running them, keeping it positive and making sure you don’t lose your own work in the process of helping others.

Links from the pod

Writing Fiction: A Guide to Narrative Craft by Janet Burroway

The Place Between Breaths by An Na

#AmReading

Joni: Embassy Wife by Katie Crouch

American Dialogue by Joseph J. Ellis

Less by Andrew Sean Greer

Craft in the Real World by Matthew Salesses

(KJ and Jennie discussed Craft in the Real World in Episode 275: Writing While White (or otherwise part of the historically dominant paradigm))

KJ: Writing the Romantic Comedy by Billy Mernit

Find Joni: jonibcole.com

The Writer’s Center in White River Junction, VT

Are you itching for a career change but struggling to figure out that next chapter? By now, you’ve probably heard us talk about book coaching—how much we love being coached, and how much I loved my coach training. Book coaches help writers bring their dreams to life through support, feedback, project management, and accountability at each step of the book writing and publishing process. Author Accelerator’s Book Coach Certification program teaches you the key editorial, project management, organizational, and people skills needed to launch your own thriving book coaching business. To find out if book coaching is the right career for you, Author Accelerator is launching a new 5-day challenge to help you envision your new chapter. In their $99 One-Page Book Coaching Business Plan, you’ll narrow down your business idea, your ideal client, your ideal service, and more.

Enrollment opens May 15th and runs through the end of the month! Visit bookcoaches.com/podcasts and enter the code PODCAST at checkout to get 50-percent off the One-Page Book Coaching Business Plan Challenge. bookcoaches.com/podcasts

Trying to find your TikTok Groove (or just looking for more happily-ever-afters for your TBR)? Make sure you check out Sarina’s TikTok

Psst: if you subscribe to the shownotes, you’ll get #AmWriting episodes straight to your inbox. Double points if you subscribe with $$.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Scrivener Tips: It's only taken Jess 361 episodes to deliver on her promise May 19, 2023

Jess here. I know, I KNOW. I’ve been meaning to get to this for ages but who has time to just sit and watch videos about software? Not me. However, last week Sarina told me about some of her Scrivener tricks and I realized it’s time. I put my butt in the chair and scrolled through ALL of the Scrivener YouTube videos (for Mac) and searched on #scrivener #scrivenertips and a few other hashtags on TikTok, and I have to admit, I learned a lot. I’m no guru, but I’ve solved some problems I was having with the app. I hope my time spent learning this stuff can flatten your learning curve so you can get on with the words!

Links:

Scrivener

Scrivener on YouTube

Have you followed Jess on IG yet? There’s cute puppy pics, educational reels, and of course - little glimpses into life in Vermont.

Not subscribed to our shownotes yet? You should be—sometimes we send surprises! And we’d love it if you choose to $$ support the pod.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Summoning My Accountability Buddies: Because Sometimes Writers Need Deadlines, ep 360 May 12, 2023

Jess here. As I’ve mentioned in the past, I know how my brain works, which is to say it doesn’t, unless a hard and fast deadline looms large in my calendar. I’ve been known to tell my agent or editor to expect chapters on a given day, or I plan to have a completed book proposal to her by X date three weeks hence, but this spring, I’ve decided to call in my writer reinforcements.

I summoned KJ and Sarina to a study room in the Howe Library in Hanover, NH on a very rainy day in late April because I needed their help. I needed them to hold me to dates and words and pages, and without being prompted, they pulled out their planners and dutifully asked me what dates to circle in brightly colored ink.

I now have deadlines, and actual human beings to bug me about them, for various stages of my novel-in-progress, and I will not - can not - let them down.

This, dear listeners, is what accountability buddies are for.

Come along for the ride and, as a bonus, learn about all kinds of Scrivener tools and tricks I plan to employ along the way.

“The first draft is just you telling yourself the story.” - Terry Pratchett

Links:

Scrivener, in case you are one of the unconverted.

#AmReading

Jess: Sarina Bowen’s Brooklyn Bruisers series (and Jess’ comfort reads)

Underland by Robert Macfarlane

A review of Underland by Robert Macfarlane (by Terry Tempest Williams) in the New York Times.

Sarina: Happy Place by Emily Henry

KJ: The Candid Life of Meena Dave by Namrata Patel

Sarina’s progress trees:

Jess’ Accountability Bunny:

Accountability buddies:

Do you get KJ’s Box of Chocolates email—for erratic doses of books and enthusiasms? If not - what are you waiting for?

Not subscribed to our shownotes yet? You should be—sometimes we send surprises! And we’d love it if you choose to $$ support the pod.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Dealing with Goal Fatigue What to Do When the Goals Aren't Getting You Anywhere, Ep. 359 May 05, 2023

Dana Bowman is the author How to Be Perfect Like Me and Bottled Up: A Mom’s Guide to Early Recovery. She was the 2016 recipient of the Kansas Notable Book Award, making her the only podcast guest to share that distinction with me. What else do we share? The experience of feeling a level of exhaustion with the goals we’ve set for ourselves and the need to find our way back into the work.

Links from the Pod

Clifton Strengths

The highly competitive Kansas Notable Book Award!

Jon Acuff

Becky Blades episode #347, Start More than You Can Finish: Redefining failure

#AmReading

Dana: Vacationland, Meg Mitchell Moore

Remarkably Bright Creatures, Shelby Van Pelt

The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control, Katherine Morgan Schafler

Four Tendencies, Gretchen Rubin

KJ: The Society of Shame, Jane Roper

Mentioned: Life in Five Senses, Gretchen Rubin

Do you like book recs and achievement stickers? Sarina Bowen’s Instagram might be right up your alley!

Not subscribed to our shownotes yet? You should be—sometimes we send surprises! And we’d love it if you choose to $$ support the pod.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flashback Friday: Jodi Kantor Chases the Truth Apr 28, 2023

Jess here! This week, I’m coming to you from somewhere in Indiana, tired but happy. Getting out on the road and speaking to students, teachers, and communities is both exhausting and incredibly invigorating, and this week I got to speak to a classroom of student writers, kids who are just learning about the basics of researching, writing, and even podcasting. There’s nothing I love more.

When I’m in these classrooms, and especially when I’m talking to kids looking to change the world by writing for their school papers as they dream about breaking big stories like the Harvey Weinstein saga, I always recommend Jodi Kantor and Meghan Twohey’s essential text, Chasing the Truth: A Young Journalist’s Guide to Investigative Reporting.

Enjoy!

New York Times investigative journalists Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey broke the story of Harvey Weinstein’s sexual assaults in 2017 and harassment and won a Pulitzer Prize for their efforts. Their book about the Weinstein investigation, She Said: Breaking the Sexual Harassment Story That Helped Ignite a Movement, came out in 2019 and the film version will be out this November.

Now, Jodi and Megan offer the lessons of their investigation - the process involved and the rules that governed its publication - to student journalists so they may be inspired and informed. I (Jess) got to talk to Jodi Kantor about the book they created for those young journalists, Chasing the Truth: A Young Journalist’s Guide to Investigative Reporting.

Links from the Pod:

#AmWriting Facebook group

If you love #AmWriting, kick in some $$ to support us and get bonuses and appreciation.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Intoxication for Inspiration: Do drugs and alcohol unleash the muses? Episode 358 Apr 21, 2023

As a former member of the “write drunk, edit sober” club, I thought it might be interesting to look at the research on alcohol, weed, stimulants and their effect on creativity so we can figure out what’s working for us, what’s not, and weigh the pros and cons of intoxication for inspiration.

I cite a few studies in this episode and, for the #AmReading segment, share a few of my favorite books on the topic of writing and intoxication.

A fun article about the Delphic Oracle in the New York Times

Research Cited:

“Alcohol Benefits the Creative Process: being moderately intoxicated gets people to think ‘outside the box.’”

“Cannabis Use Does Not Increase Actual Creativity but Biases Evaluations of Creativity” Heng, Y. T., Barnes, C. M., & Yam, K. C. (2023). Journal of Applied Psychology, 108(4), 635–646.

"Neurocognitive, Autonomic, and Mood Effects of Adderall: A Pilot Study of Healthy College Students" Weyandt, Lisa L., Tara L. White, Bergljot Gyda Gudmundsdottir, Adam Z. Nitenson, Emma S. Rathkey, Kelvin A. De Leon, and Stephanie A. Bjorn. 2018. Pharmacy 6, no. 3: 58. https://doi.org/10.3390/pharmacy6030058

#AmReading: Books on intoxication, writing, and recovery mentioned in the episode

The Trip to Echo Spring: On Writers and Drinking by Olivia Laing

Home Before Dark: A Biographical Memoir of John Cheever. by His Daughter by Susan Cheever

Note Found in a Bottle: My Life As a Drinker by Susan Cheever

Drinking in America: Our Secret History by Susan Cheever

The Recovering: Intoxication and Its Aftermath by Leslie Jamison

On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft by Stephen King

Out of the Wreck I Rise: A Literary Companion to Recovery by Neil Steinberg and Sara Bader

Are you looking for some fun reads to pass the time between episodes? Then you should check out KJ’s Bookstagram!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The Anxious Writer: Turning fears into superpowers. Episode 357 Apr 14, 2023

Actually, there is no action without anxiety. We all feel it, and we’re all driven by it—and almost no one is completely at peace with it. Morra Aarons-Mele, author of The Anxious Achiever and Hiding in the Bathroom: How to Get Out There (When You’d Rather Stay Home), has been working for years to normalize those feelings and the spectrum on which they appear to bring mental health struggles out into the open and encourage people to rethink the relationship between their mental health and their success. We talk about harnessing every degree of anxiety and finding ways to keep going—and even go better—when things get hard.

LINKS FROM THE POD

The Anxious Achiever

Hiding in the Bathroom: How to Get Out There (When You’d Rather Stay Home)

The Anxious Achiever Podcast

Morra Aarons-Mele

Using tropes and genres like a pro: Ep 334 with Alexis Hall

#AmReading

Morra: Robertson Davies The Deptford Trilogy, The Cornish Trilogy

Which sent us onto a tangent that included: Peter Orner, author of Still No Word From You, Katie Crouch, author of Embassy Wife, Andy Borowitz of The Borowitz Report, Sarah Stewart Taylor, author of A Stolen Child and The Drowning Sea who appeared on the podcast in episode 298 and Lisa Christie’s The Book Jam, which hosted the event KJ refers to along with her podcast, Shelf Help, and then another podcast, This Jungian Life.

KJ: The Murderbot Diaries, Martha Wells

Hey listener - have you followed Jess on TikTok yet?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Writerly Tech: the hardware, the software and the why. Episode 356 Apr 07, 2023

We’ll admit it. We like our writerly gear. We get a little rush from visiting our favorite Vermont stationery store together. (In fact, we just did this last week.) But in all seriousness, we spend a lot of time on this job, so it’s good to figure out what works for us.

Today Sarina takes us through her novel-writing tech stack. She covers hardware, software and the “why” behind the tools she chooses.

Links for some of Sarina’s tech:

Scrivener

Keychron K series Keyboard

Inexpensive ergonomic mouse

Campus binders with removable pages and extra paper

Remarkable 2

Otter.ai app

What’s in your tech stack? Let us know in the Facebook group!

Out of #AmWriting episodes and in need of another podcast? Check out A Bookish Home. I’ve been a guest, and it’s a delight. Librarian and writer Laura Szaro Kopinski interviews a different author each week, so you can Add to your TBR list while getting the inside scoop on the winding road to publication. Coming up this spring will be Amy Poeppel, Sarah Penner, Maggie Smith and many more. Find it here on Apple podcasts or search it on your pod player of choice.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In My Expert Opinion: Pitching, Prepping, and Nailing Interviews for TV and Radio Mar 31, 2023

Becoming an expert takes years of work and many of you have asked how you can take that expertise out for a spin in the media. I don’t blame you. From the moment the my first Atlantic article, “Why Parents Need to Let Their Children Fail” went viral in 2013, I was eager to get on television and radio so I could talk about my work, stir up interest in my topics, and hopefully maximize my chances of selling a book on the topic. One decade and two books later, I still pitch producers all the time about a range of topics, and I’ve learned some things.

Sit back, relax, and let’s talk pitching, prepping your topic, and securing media spots on television and radio so you can become one of those go-to experts producers seek out over and over again.

Where Jess meets Brooke Shields:

Jess on Armchair Expert with Dax and Monica:

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Good Writing Comes Last: the form and function of a solid book outline, episode 354 Mar 24, 2023

Jess here, because I hate outlining. Hate it. It sounds boring and feels like an assignment, writing stripped of all flow and joy. I asked KJ and Sarina to help me with this problematic mindset, because my novel in progress clearly needs a solid outline and yet every time I go back to work on it, I feel irritated, frustrated and blocked.

Thank goodness for my accountability buddies, because they came through for me in this episode. In fact, the moment we logged off the Zoom call, I got back to work, refreshed, refocused, and engaged in the process of storytelling.

Resources

Jennie Nash and Author Accelerator

Save the Cat Writes a Novel

#AmReading

Jess: I’ve been watching Daisy Jones and the Six on Amazon Prime and re-listening to the audiobook, which features Jennifer Beals as Daisy. I needed more Taylor Jenkins Reid, so I finally downloaded the audio of The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, which I’m really enjoying. (Also mentioned: Carrie Soto Is Back, Malibu Rising)

KJ: Amy Poppel’s The Sweet Spot

Hey you - yea, you! Are you following Sarina on Tiktok?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Sensitivity Reader Reboot: looking your topic from all the angles, with Jordan Shapiro and Jazz Mar 17, 2023

Recently, someone on Twitter asked if sensitivity readers are still a resource writers utilize and where to find them. Yes indeed, sensitivity readers are still a great resource, and since we interviewed Jordan Shapiro and a sensitivity reader he worked with on his book, Father Figure: How to Be a Feminist Dad. I hope you enjoy this re-airing of episode 266 the #AmWriting podcast.

Hey all, Jess here. When I agreed to read and blurb Jordan Shapiro’s new book, Father Figure: How to Be a Feminist Dad, I was struck by the attention he paid to inclusivity and the language he used to describe it. When I mentioned it to him, he told me he’d used a sensitivity reader named Jazz to ensure he got the language right.

Sensitivity readers are becoming more of a norm in publishing. Jodi Picoult has tweeted about how much she depends on hers to get her descriptions, language, and representation right in her books articles like this one in the Guardian and this one in Vulture are great primers on the topic.

We asked Jordan and Jazz to join us to talk about the experience of working together to create Father Figure.

#AmReading

Jazz: What's Your Pronoun?: Beyond He and She by Dennis Baron

Jordan: Interior Chinatown by Charles Yu

Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro

KJ: Conjure Women by Afia Atakora

Jess: Act Your Age, Eve Brown by Talia Hibbert

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Unraveling Nonfiction Research and Writing: Episode 353 with Peggy Orenstein Mar 10, 2023

This week, Jess and KJ talk to journalist, author, and lifelong knitter Peggy Orenstein about research, nonfiction writing, expertise, and examining the unexamined in ordinary life. Peggy’s newest book is , Unraveling: What I Learned About Life While Shearing Sheep, Dyeing Wool, and Making the World’s Ugliest Sweater.

Peggy’s TED Talk: What Young Women Believe About Their Own Sexual Pleasure

Why Fish Don’t Exist, by Lulu Miller

Etymology of the term “woolgathering”

Etymology of the term “spinster”

The Revolutionary Power of a Skein of Yarn, Unraveling excerpt in the New York Times.

Michael Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind and Omnivore’s Dilemma

#AmReading

Peggy: KJ’s Playing the Witch Card, David Copperfield by Charles Dickens and Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver

Jess: Inside of a Dog by Alexandra Horowitz and The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo

KJ: Geneology of a Murder: Four Generations, Three Families, One Fateful Night by Lisa Belkin

Also mentioned: The Puzzler by A.J. Jacobs

Have you followed Jess on IG yet? You really should!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Write a Novel in Three Months, Sarina-Style (Episode 352) Mar 03, 2023

Hey all! Today Sarina brings you a fun but tricky topic: how to write a novel in three months.

Should you do it? Maybe. It depends on the book. Not every book can or should be written in 90 days.

But if you’re game to try, Sarina gives you:

4 things you need to know about the book before you start

5 tips for writing scenes more quickly

3 things to try when you’re stuck

Links from the Pod

The Astronaut and The Star, Jen Comfort

2k to 10k: Writing Faster, Writing Better, and Writing More of What You Love, Rachel Aaron

Otter.ai

Becca Syme’s Quitcast and her book Dear Writer, You Need to Quit.

If you love #AmWriting, make sure you subscribe to get bonuses and appreciation.

Calling all freelancers! On March 9 and 10, the Institute for Independent Journalists is offering an online freelance journalism conference with 12 information-packed interactive sessions on everything from pitching, negotiations, and contracts to podcasting and developing new revenue streams. Speakers include editors for The Atlantic, The Guardian, The New York Times, Wired, The Verge, The Emancipator, and more. Registration costs $69 for 12 live, interactive sessions, delivering 15 hours of learning. For more information and to register, see: theiij.com All sessions will be recorded and available to view for one month after the conference.The IIJ is a new organization whose mission is the financial and emotional sustainability of journalists of color. Everyone is welcome at the IIJ’s public programs, like the conference, although some future opportunities will be limited to BIPOC freelancers.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

A Workbook for Your Story: Episode 351 with Adrienne Young and Isabel Ibañez Feb 24, 2023

True confession time: Sarina and I have always wanted to make something like this. I’m talking about The Storyteller’s Workbook, which is a gorgeous combination of structural writing guide and writing bullet journal created by Isabel Ibañez, the author of Woven in Moonlight and Written in Starlight, a fantasy YA series that’s a hit with TikTok and Time Magazine both as well as a designer whose work you’ve seen while drooling in the paper sections of stores like Anthropologie and Adrienne Young, the New York Times and international bestselling author of the Sky and Sea duology and the Fable series whose first “adult book”, Spells for Forgetting, came out last fall. (That’s in quotes because who are we kidding, adults read the heck out of her earlier work.)

The episode is fun, all about making something like this—and Adrienne and Isabel’s writing processes, the examples they share and the ways the book reflects how they really work. But what you’re really here for is to see what it looks like—which is, in a word, gorgeous. If you’d use something like this, you can’t do better—the paper is nice, too, suited for any kind of pen, there’s not going be bleed-through, it lays flat… all the things.

So here it is!

#AmReading

Isabel: Emily Wilde's Encyclopaedia of Faeries, Heather Fawcett (she also mentioned The Bear and the Nightingale by Katherine Arden and Uprooted by Naomi Novik)

Adrienne: Hell Bent (sequel to Ninth House), Leigh Bardugo

KJ: A Dangerous Business, Jane Smiley

Find Isabel & Adrienne on Instagram at: @IsabelWriter09 & @Adrienneyoungbooks

Is 2023 going to be the year you finally click through and start exploring the idea of becoming a book coach? Author Accelerator’s coach certification program is good stuff, kids, I’ve done it. We’re talking editorial, project management, client intaking, and emotional skills along with the support you need to make a goof it. Wondering if you have what it takes? Here, they made you a quiz. Go see!

Do you get KJ’s Box of Chocolates email—for erratic doses of books and enthusiasms?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Writing Three Books Without Typing a Word: Episode 350 with Leslie Hooton Feb 17, 2023

As Leslie Hooton told me, “Some writers have a stroke of luck, I had a stroke at birth,” which left her paralyzed on one side of her body. Thanks to Dragon dictation (not sponsored, we’re just fans!), she’s learned to train her Dragon and “penned” three novels including her most recent release, After Everyone Else. As Jess hosts this episode, we delve into plenty of tangents on dictation, deleted text fragments, inspiration, and the wisdom of Wendell Berry.

It may be that when we no longer know what to dowe have come to our real work,and that when we no longer know which way to gowe have come to our real journey.

- Excerpt from “The Real Work” by Wendell Berry

#AmReading

Leslie: Olympus, Texas by Stacey Swan and Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van Pelt

Jess: Unraveling: What I Learned About Life While Shearing Sheep, Dyeing Wood, and Making the Ugliest Sweater in the World by Peggy Orenstein

Leslie’s links:

Her website

Her Facebook

Her Instagram

If you’ve been intrigued by all the talk you’ve heard about book coaching over the years here at #Amwriting, maybe this is your year to explore becoming a coach yourself. Author Accelerator is GOOD AT TEACHING YOU TO DO THIS. And supporting you in making a business or side-gig out of it, we swear. Here, they even made you a quiz to see if you have what it takes. Quizzes are fun, people! Go check it out!

Pssst: Do you follow Sarina on Instagram?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Write (More than just) Erotica: Episode 349 with Rachel Kramer Bussel Feb 10, 2023

STOP. Do not think to yourself, well, I don’t want to write Erotica—why is this podcast/book for me? This conversation, and the book, How to Write Erotica, that inspires it, goes far beyond any pre-imagined specifics you have about writing scenes, stories and books focused on which bit of bodily anatomy goes where—because to write good erotica, you have to come back to the heart of writing any story (fiction, memoir, what-have-you: why this story, why this character, why now? Guest Rachel Kramer Bussel knows what makes good story, and this conversation is applicable to any writing that appeals to our senses (as all writing should) and challenges our ability to tell our truths (ditto).

Links from the Pod

Starr**cker Magazine on Twitter

Take Me There anthology

Fetlife.com

Addition, Toni Jordan

A Concise Chinese-English Dictionary for Lovers by Xiaolu Guo

Cheesy Boots in Dirty Girls: Erotica for Women

#AmReading

City of Likes, Jenny Mollen

Spoiler Alert & Ship Wrecked, Olivia Dade

Rachelkramerbussel.com

eroticawriting101.com

@raquelita on Twitter

Is 2023 going to be the year you finally click through and start exploring the idea of becoming a book coach? If you’ve been intrigued by all the conversations we’ve had about book coaching over the years here at #Amwriting, maybe this is your year to make it happen. Author Accelerator’s Book Coach certification program teaches you the key editorial, project management, client intaking, and emotional skills necessary to launch your own book coaching business. I’ve done it, and even after years as an editor for the New York Times, I expanded my skills dramatically, and my approach to helping others with their books, and writing my own, is so much better.

The best part: no publishing experience is necessary to be good at this work.

Are you curious to see if you have what it takes? Head to bookcoaches.com/podcasts now to take Author Accelerator’s free quiz to find out if you have the skills and characteristics needed to launch your own book coaching business and get paid to read books all day!

If you love #AmWriting, kick in some $$ to support us and get bonuses and appreciation.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Are You Ready to Pitch? The Answer is in Your Query. Episode 348 with Julie Artz Feb 03, 2023

Your query letter—or your jacket copy—KNOWS. It knows if you’ve got a whole story in there, if there’s an arc of change, if there are stakes, if there’s a why now and a why this and a why her/him.

You just have to be willing to listen. Julie Artz, query coach extraordinaire, and KJ talk about mistakes writers make in our queries—and more importantly, the problems queries can reveal about our stories.

DOWNLOAD JULIE’s 5 STEP QUERY LETTER AUDIT!

Links from the Pod

Podcast: The S**t No One Tells You About Writing

Blog: Jet Reid’s The Query Shark

Podcast: Queries Qualms and Quirks

Previous episodes:

Ep 343: Friends Don’t Let Friends Write Books Without Hooks

Summer Blueprint Step 4: Your Jacket Copy is Your Promise to the Reader

#AmReading

Julie: The Book of Delights, Ross Gay

Demon Copperhead, Barbara Kingsolver

KJ: Inciting Joy, Ross Gay

“You Just Need to Lose Weight” and 19 Other Myths about Fat People, Aubrey Gordon

(also mentioned— Maintenance Phase Podcast)

Julie Artz @julieartz on twitter and Instagram

The best part: no publishing experience is necessary to be good at this work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Start More than You Can Finish: Redefining failure with Becky Blades in Episode 347 Jan 27, 2023

Okay, some us (hand up here) start ALL THE THINGS. But some of us don’t like to start what we don’t think we will finish (and even those of us who start a lot sometimes beat ourselves up for that).

But if you don’t start stuff you cannot finish stuff. So: here’s Becky Blades, author of Start More than You Can Finish (which—and this is a big deal—was recommended by the Next Big Idea Book Club — and you can listen to five ideas from the book by clicking that link) on why we should… start. More than we can finish. And HOW. And also, how to learn to love not finishing what we start.

Links from the pod:

Becky and her daughter in McSweeney’s: A GUIDE TO MIDWESTERN CONVERSATION: ELECTION EDITION

Becky’s daughter’s book (A Guide to Midwestern Conversation, Taylor Kay Phillips)

#AmReading

Becky: You’ll Never Believe What Happened to Lacey and The World Record Book of Racist Stories, Amber Ruffin, Lacey Lamar

Think Again, Adam Grant

The Science of Stuck, Britt Frank

KJ: The Real Work, Adam Gopnik

StARTistry, the newsletter

If you’ve been intrigued by all the talk you’ve heard about book coaching over the years here at #Amwriting, maybe this is your year to explore becoming a coach yourself. Author Accelerator’s Book Coach certification program teaches you the key editorial, project management, client intaking, and emotional skills necessary to launch your own book coaching business—and it’s so much more than an online course, as it comes with amazing opportunities for community and connection.

With more than 135 certified book coaches and counting, Author Accelerator is helping people around the world launch thriving book coaching businesses to guide writers through each step of the writing and publishing process. If you’re curious to see if you have what it takes? Head to bookcoaches.com/podcasts now to take Author Accelerator’s free quiz to find out if you have the skills and characteristics needed to launch your own book coaching business and—as Jennie likes to say-- get paid to read books all day!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

A Thousand Miles to a First Novel: Episode 346 with Kristen Mei Chase Jan 20, 2023

On this week’s episode, Jess and KJ talk to Kristen Mei Chase, an OG mommy blogger, journalist, former professor, podcaster, CEO of the Cool Mom Picks Network, and now, novelist. Her book, Thousand Miles to Graceland comes out on January 24, 2002, and we discuss the long road to publication for her (very personal) story.

#AmReading

Kristen: Celeste Ng’s Everything I Never Told You

KJ: Charmaine Wilkerson’s Black Cake

Jess: Reading has been all disappointment recently so she names no names, but she remains optimistic and just started The House in the Pines by Ana Reyes.

Order signed copies of Kristen’s book here!

If you’ve been intrigued by all the talk you’ve heard about book coaching over the years here at #Amwriting, maybe this is your year to explore becoming a coach yourself. Author Accelerator’s Book Coach certification program teaches you the key editorial, project management, client intaking, and emotional skills necessary to launch your own book coaching business—and it’s so much more than an online course, as it comes with amazing opportunities for community and connection.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flashback Friday -- Episode 71: Building relationships with booksellers with Mary Laura Philpott Jan 13, 2023

Hello #AmWriters! Someone in the #AmWriting Facebook group asked about the best ways to connect and build relationships with bookstores, so we decided to revisit this older episode with bestselling author and Emmy-winning television host Mary Laura Philpott. Drawing on her many years working at Parnassus Books and launching her own books into the world, we talk about the benefits of working with your local bookseller in time for publication day.

Got a writer-dilemma we could help with? Wanna come on the pod and talk it through? Hey, there’s a goal! Whatever you’re trying to do, maybe we can help you find the action items to get you there. Email us—amwriting@substack.com—and let’s talk.

HEY NOVELISTS—Did you finish NaNoWriMo? Would you like to know what to do next with that pile of words you worked so hard to create?

Here’s a group of Author Accelerator certified book coaches dedicated to walking you through the process of finishing your draft or tackling revision—and they have put together a host of free resources to get you started.

Check out www.nanonowwhat.com to learn more about these fantastic book coaches and how they can get you from NaNo success to a draft that’s ready to pitch or publish.

Writers, I’ve got exciting news from Author Accelerator. Applications for Author Accelerator's new 2-year scholarship program for Black, Indigenous, Latinx, and other people of color opens this month! The Author Accelerator team developed this scholarship as a way to amplify diverse voices and perspectives that are under-recognized in the publishing world.

The newly launched Author Accelerator Book Coach Certification Scholarship provides one year of professional mentorship and feedback for up to three students of color as they complete the Book Coach Certification program and one subsequent year of career coaching and mentorship as they launch their business. If you’re Interested in Applying, the scholarship window opens November 15th and will close January 15, 2023. The program will kick off in March 2023. To learn more, visit bookcoaches.com/equity.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

When it comes to goals, boring is good. Episode 345: Goals--or not--for 2023 Jan 06, 2023

A few assorted 2023 goals that I have no doubt I can achieve:

* Finish this box of Wheat Thins

* Take down holiday decorations before July.

* Read … some books.

* Let the dogs in.

Hey, look at that. Already I can check off #1. Jess, Sarina and I just aren’t feeling the goals this year. Oh, we have them. But they’re mostly “do that again” or “yeah, stick with that” kinda things. . I’m gonna write another book. Jess is going to promote her speaking and work on her fiction. Sarina is going to write… four books. I think. Don’t hold her to that, it’s just what I remember. More than me, anyway, but happily it’s not a competition.

And then we have dreams for the ways all of that will be received, which we know aren’t goals because they’re out of our control. We’ve figured out that part—good goals have action items, are achievable and can be checked off. You either wrote a book or you didn’t. You either pitched 60 agents or you didn’t, completed the online French course or not, went to the art class or stayed home. Did you “draw more” or “become a writer” or ““watch less Netflix”? Who the heck knows?

But did you write 500 words, or spend 30 minutes researching agents, or read a chapter or sign up for a class? That you can check off. Want to hear more about that? Here are a couple of tools we’ve come up with over the years.

So, we’ve got that. And we set those. But as it turned out, none of us is aiming for the moon this year, or even forming a team for future moon launches. We’re kind of just all trying to hold tight and enjoy the ride.

So my question is—is that just us? Because we’re a bit settled, and have family things to cope with, and need to recover from the recent whirlwinds? Or is no one feeling big goal energy this year? Spill, kids, and if you ARE swinging for the stars, we will cheer you on.

* Buy more Wheat Thins.

HEY NOVELISTS—Did you finish NaNoWriMo? Would you like to know what to do next with that pile of words you worked so hard to create?

Check out www.nanonowwhat.com to learn more about these fantastic book coaches and how they can get you from NaNo success to a draft that’s ready to pitch or publish.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

2022 in the Rear View Mirror: Episode 344 Dec 30, 2022

We make a point of setting goals every year—and, even more importantly, actually looking back to see whether we achieved them, and why. We’ve talked a lot in past years about the importance of setting the right kind of goals (you can get a short PDF on goal-setting and a worksheet below)—by which we mean goals you can control. You can’t sell your book to a publisher—that’s not a goal within your control. Get an agent, make a best-seller list, same. But you can finish the book, get help with the query, revise, edit, spend X time, write X words, write the proposal—without anyone else having to make a choice that fulfills your dreams.

We try to make our goals mostly dreams we can fulfill ourselves, and then add in the big, out-of-control payoffs in sort of a different section.

But even given that, we make mistakes. My goals last year were weirdly TOO specific (a more usual problem is that they be too vague) and as it turned out, in several cases although I still wanted to achieve the overarching goal, the specific goal I set didn’t interest me any more. This year I plan to give myself a little more leeway.

Jess’s WOTY (word of the year) last year was Evaluate. Mine was Play. Sarina’s was WIP. Jess and Sarina nailed theirs. I… kind of forgot mine. But looking back, I lived up to it. I traveled more for fun than I have in many many years—partly because post-Covid and older kids, but still, it would have been easy to just go no, that’s TOO MUCH WORK. But I didn’t, I got out there, and I have the memories of the camel ride, the vintage shopping trip, the hike outside San Fransisco, the baths in Asturias, the road trip down the East Coast, the heat in Austin and the crowds watching the World Cup in the plaza in Marrakech to prove it. Thinking of it all makes me think of the new rule form fave guest Laura Vanderkam’s Tranquility By Tuesday: Effortful before Effortless. Sometimes “Play” is also kind of hard work. But it’s worth it.

I’m sending out a discussion thread for next year’s WOTYs. You’ll get a preview of mine there (I’m already living by it) and hear from Jess and Sarina on the next episode! Or come chat—details below.

Links from the Pod

Gifts for Writers

Epic (short story by Sarina and Elle Kennedy)

Jezebel’s Creepy Stories for Halloween

Rachael Herron’s 90 Days to Done Masterclass

@katherineroystudio’s reel on how picture books are made

#AmReading

Sarina: Every Last Fear, Alex Finlay

Jess: Desert Star, Michael Connelly

KJ: A Letter to Three Witches, Elizabeth Bass

HEY NOVELISTS—Did you finish NaNoWriMo? Would you like to know what to do next with that pile of words you worked so hard to create?

Check out www.nanonowwhat.com to learn more about these fantastic book coaches and how they can get you from NaNo success to a draft that’s ready to pitch or publish.

Want to BE one of those book coaches? Our partners at Author Accelerator have super-fun BONUSES for anyone who signs up book coach training before the end of 2022. Learn more at bookcoaches.com to find out if 2023 will be the year you launch a book coaching business or level up the one you already have.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

#NaNoNowWhat? Bonus Episode: First Steps after First Drafts Dec 27, 2022

Finishing a draft is glorious.

Realizing you have to revise it—especially the first time—is … not.

That’s the focus of this bonus episode. We’re thinking, maybe it’s post NaNoWriMo, it’s December, and you’re sitting on on a draft, a real honest-to-gosh draft of your first novel. And you should be thrilled, happy, pleased as punch.

But since you’re a #AmWriting listener, we know you know the next step is NOT pressing send on an agent query or designing cover art. Or even polishing each sentence to perfection. In this episode, you’ll hear me (KJ) chat with three fantastic book coaches about what you do do to go from the drafting process to the revision process, the first steps in shifting your mindset, evaluating what you’ve got and figuring out how to make it better.

Links from the pod:

The 30 day revision process episode

Creating Character Arcs, KM Weiland

Save the Cat Writes a Novel, Jessica Brody

MORE INFO: Head to www.nanonowwhat.com for free resources on the evaluating and revision process, and to learn more about these fantastic book coaches and how they can get you from NaNo success to a draft that’s ready to pitch or publish.

Hear from other #NaNoNowWhat coaches on #AmWriting:

Rona Gofstein on Blueprint for a Book Step 3: Who Will Read My Book? Know Your Market

Sam Skal on Blueprint for a Book Step 8: One Outline to Rule Them All (Even if You Hate Outlining)

The guest coaches

Kayla Davenport has been an avid reader and writer her whole life, and now assists other writers on their own bookish journeys. She enjoys a wide range of genres, but her favorites are young adult fantasy and dystopian stories that delve into compelling characters and their struggles. She is the author of the young adult dystopian series Beyond the Gates, and is very involved in the online book community on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok under the name @thebooktubeturtle. Through her coaching business, Kayla Davenport Books, she works with writers at all stages of the process, from initial idea to publication, but her specialty lies in revision work, identifying the hidden gaps in stories and helping writers fill them in and take their manuscripts from good to great.

Stacy Frazer is a formerly repressed creative soul turned speculative fiction writer, YA fantasy author, Author Accelerator certified book coach, and the founder of Write It Scared. Her mission is to help fiction writers let go of the self-doubt spiral and find clarity and confidence in their stories so they can finish their books. Stacy firmly believes that the only creative license required to write a novel is one's lived experience and that you can learn all the tools to craft a book that makes you proud!

When not writing, reading, or working with writers, you can find Stacy hanging with her daughter or on the trail with her big goofy labrador, Gus Gus. To connect with Stacy, please visit her website: www.writeitscared.co. You can also email her at Stacy@writeitscared.co or follow her on Instagram @WriteitScared.

Sam Cameron has spent the past decade as a writing tutor and high school history teacher. She loves helping teenagers find their voice and discover the world around them. Coaching YA authors is the perfect marriage between her love of story, my passion for teaching, and her firm belief that all teens deserve to see themselves represented in great books! Her coaching super power is diagnosing the fatal flaws of a manuscript and helping writers figure out how to fix them.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Flashback Friday -- Episode 251 How to give your fun read a solid, poke-in-the-gut point with Anna North Dec 23, 2022

My motto for 2023 is “good writing comes last” but it might as well be “story first”, which is why we’re re-sharing this interview with Anna North, author of three novels, most recently Outlawed—the January 2021 Reese’s Book Club pick. Outlawed has a powerful theme and message and what we call, in the interview, a “poke-in-the-gut point”—but it also has, first and foremost, a can’t-put-it-down story. We recorded this in January 2021, and it deserves a listen any time.

Bummed that there’s not a fresh episode this week? We’ve got you! Hang tight until Tuesday for a bonus episode: NaNoNowWhat. If you finished NaNoWriMo—of have a draft desperately in need of completion or revision—this is the episode for you.

KJ talks to a group of Author Accelerator certified book coaches about the process of finishing your draft or tackling revision. Can’t wait? They’ve also put together a host of free resources to get you started.

Check out www.nanonowwhat.com to learn more about these fantastic book coaches and how they can get you from NaNo success to a draft that’s ready to pitch or publish.

Writers, I’ve got exciting news from Author Accelerator. Applications for Author Accelerator's new 2-year scholarship program for Black, Indigenous, Latinx, and other people of color opens this month! The Author Accelerator team developed this scholarship as a way to amplify diverse voices and perspectives that are under-recognized in the publishing world.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Friends Don't Let Friends Write Books Without Hooks. Episode 343 Dec 16, 2022

Hooks, tropes, high concept. Comps. The publishing world tosses those phrases around like juggling balls, and I for one (as usual it’s KJ here) had a hard time understanding them for ages, especially the idea of a hook.

But now I get it. A hook, in short, is the thing that gets someone—agent, editor, reader, movie-goer, etc—to say, following a one or two sentence description of the book: SOLD. Fiction, non-fiction: same deal.

So a hook COULD be high-concept. (What if a kid wished to be Big? What if you woke up and discovered your whole life was a TV show with you as the unwitting star?). It could also be a mix-and-match situation with a pair of comps or a single comp (Cujo, but a cat).

Or it can steal from something high concept: The Princess Diaries, but with the Japanese royal family (Tokyo Ever After). Groundhog Day, but in Brooklyn with a girl in the ‘80’s whose dad is now sick (This Time Tomorrow).

Sometimes the hook is right there in the title. The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Dial A for Aunties. The Gift of Failure.

The thing about a hook is that it’s rarely the full story. It’s a “come for the X, stay for the Y situation”: you pick up the book because you love a good restaurant reality show family battle, but then it’s the small town story that keeps you reading. Or it’s just that there’s a lot more to the story—as Sarina says, the whole “but then what happens?” A hook does not make a book—and a lack of hook does not mean a bad book. It’s just a whole lot harder to tell you what a book without a hook is about, and therefore to sell it. It can be done. But I, for one, am not doing it again.

Have you written a book with a hook—or without one? Wondering if you’ve got hold of a hook or a trope? Is there a particular hook (hello, “but in publishing”) that always gets you? We’re chatting in the comments—or head for the chat itself to see what else we’re talking about. You can also find us on Facebook.

Books and Links from the Pod:

The S**t No One Tells You About Writing Podcast

A Very Merry Meet Cute, Julie Murphy & Sierra Simone

The Bromance Book Club, Lyssa Kay Adams

In a Holidaze, Christina Lauren

Beach Read, Emily Henry

Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains, Bethany Brookshire

Beaverland: How One Weird Rodent Made America, Leila Philip

Listen, World: How the Intrepid Elsie Robinson Became America’s Most-Read Woman, Julia Scheeres & Allison Gilbert

The Chain, Adrian McKinty

The Plot, Jean Hanff Korelitz

Karin Slaughter’s Pieces of Her, Girl, Forgotten

Episode 71 Building a Relationship with Your Bookstore

#AmReading

Jess: Beaverland: How One Weird Rodent Made America, Leila Philip

Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains, Bethany Brookshire

Ghosts of the Orphanage (March 2023), Christine Kenneally

KJ: A Very Merry Bromance, Lyssa Kay Adams

All I Want for Christmas, Maggie Knox

Witchmark, C.L. Polk

Sarina: Pieces of Her, Karin Slaughter

The Night Shift, Alex Finlay

HEY NOVELISTS—Did you finish NaNoWriMo? Would you like to know what to do next with that pile of words you worked so hard to create?

Check out www.nanonowwhat.com to learn more about these fantastic book coaches and how they can get you from NaNo success to a draft that’s ready to pitch or publish.

Want to BE one of those book coaches? Our partners at Author Accelerator have super-fun BONUSES for anyone who signs up book coach training before the end of 2022. Learn more at bookcoaches.com

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus Episode: Speaking Agencies Dec 13, 2022

Hi all, Jess here!

I’ve been getting a lot of questions in the #AmWriting Facebook group and in my DM/emails about speaking, so I’m going to do a series of bonus episodes about the topic. There’s so much to talk about, but since so many of the questions are about speaking agencies (working with them, getting one, how much of a cut do they take, how do you know which ones are good), I thought I’d start there.

I hope this episode flattens the learning curve for you!

Show Notes

My agency, American Program Bureau and my personal landing page over on their website.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

It Turns Out What I Really Want to Write About is... Episode 342, from memoir to marketable, with Emily Grosvenor Dec 09, 2022

Sometimes you have to start with a memoir (that you never publish) to figure out who you are and where you’re going. Today’s guest has a nice impressive bio—but 8 years ago, she was just a writer staring at a screen and working on, as many of us do when we first start, a memoir.

Emily Grosvenor is the editor of Oregon Home magazine, Willamette Week’s design publication Nester. She’s also written for The Atlantic, Salon, Good Housekeeping, and others.

But ALSO like so many of us, she started as a generalist, freelancing from the familiar “write what you know” place. New place, children, parenthood, cooking, trying to navigate finding adult life or living with a partner? Write about it.

But a funny thing happened on the way to that memoir: She realized she didn’t want to keep living in that space. And when the memoir didn’t sell, Emily found the opportunity to write about something she really wanted to explore—and figured out how she fit into the market.

Links from the pod

Foundry Media Literary Agency “exploded”

Sarah Susanka’s Your Not-So-Big Life

Seth Godin’s Purple Cow

Pia somebody, Badass Your Brand

Bonus: Rachael Herron’s Fast-Draft Your Memoir in 45 Hours (because that might be the way you plow your way through what you need to write to find out what you want to write)

Sign up for Emily’s Design Shift Newsletter HERE.

(Our episode on email lists 151: #StartHereforEmailLists)

Emily on Instagram @EmilyGrosvenor

Book: Find Yourself at Home: A Conscious Approach to Shaping Your Space and Your Life

#AmReading

Emily: Marie Kondo's Kurashi at Home

KJ: Start More than You Can Finish, Becky Blades

HEY NOVELISTS—Did you finish NaNoWriMo? Would you like to know what to do next with that pile of words you worked so hard to create?

Check out www.nanonowwhat.com to learn more about these fantastic book coaches and how they can get you from NaNo success to a draft that’s ready to pitch or publish.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Talking TikTok (and Reels too): Episode 341 on Video content--the Why, the How To, and is it Worth the Time Suck? Dec 02, 2022

Hey #AmWriters! Jess here. I recorded a bunch of videos to answer all of your questions about creating video for book marketing but in the end, I figured an entire episode needed to happen in order to really get into the topic.

I started creating daily videos based on the content in The Addiction Inoculation because I wanted to the information out there, and if it sold some books or rustled up some speaking invitations, great. At the time I’m writing these show notes, I’m 63 videos deep, and yes, it’s a massive time suck. It takes a lot of work, and a lot of patience through plenty of mistakes but the experience has been a net gain for me overall in terms of education and exposure.

I hope this flattens the learning curve for you, and please report back in the #AmWriting Facebook group if you have anything to add or advice to offer!

Links

The #AmWriting Facebook Group

Jess on Instagram

Jess on TikTok

Jess on Twitter

Listeners, the team at Author Accelerator knows that all kinds of people can make good book coaches. It’s not necessarily people who have had massive success as writers themselves. It’s not necessarily people who have secured agents, book deals, degrees, or awards.

It’s people who really could spend all day talking about books, who get excited by the idea of lifting up other writers, and who are ready to back up their passion for writing with skills, training, and hard work.

If that might be you, join the Author Accelerator team for two days of exploration on November 30 and December 1, 2022, to find out if 2023 will be the year you launch a book coaching business or level up the one you already have. Head to bookcoaches.com/dreamjob to learn more.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

#WriterGifts! Dec 01, 2022

I know. I know. Long term listeners know what’s coming first but this first gift combo is an #AmWriting favorite for a good reason. The three of us own the same journal and nearly identical (save for the color of the elastic fastener and monogram) custom leather Fillion and we love them so much.

Our favorite calendar/journal is, and has always been, the Leuchtturm1917 monthly planner with 136-page dotted notebook pages. We love everything about it - the monthly pages, the number of dotted pages, the weight of the paper, the pocket for stickers in the back - oh, it’s so good. Sarina keeps a very eager eye out each year and two of our favorite days are the “what are next year’s colors?” discovery day and the day Sarina hands over the new beauties in our color of choice. Sarina’s planner is a thing of beauty so here’s a pic of what her month usually looks like (stickers are for completing the day’s word goal):

What’s a Fillion, you ask? Well, about ten years ago I bought a gorgeous tri-fold leather holder for a journal at the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art in Bentonville, Arkansas and a very happy love affair was born. I actually met the woman who makes these lovelies, Lesha Shaver (pic below), owner of Little Mountain Bindery, and she’s currently making a custom leatherbound book for a lucky someone on my holiday list this year.

There are tons of options for the Fillion, but ours is the XL trifold with our initials in Huxley font. You can fit two notebooks in there if you want, plus the optional magnetic pocket is great for stickers, ruler, stencils, that sort of thing. I’ve been giving this Fillion to people as a thank you gift for years (for example, everyone who has blurbed my books has one with their initials and their favorite color elastic cording).

In plucking the proper url to link in this post I just discovered Lesha has created a deluxe Fillion box set and now my mouth is watering.

Given that we have our journals, now we need to have a very serious conversation about pens. I have choices, of course, but Sarina has OPINIONS. Her current favorites are:

* Uniball Jetstream retractable fine (.7mm) ballpoint pens in black.

* Pentel EnerGel RTX medium point (.7mm) retractable liquid gel pens in assorted colors.

* Pilot Frixion light pastel highlighter with erasable ink and chisel tip 3-pack.

I happen to love my black Sharpie ultra fine point pens, but that’s just me. They do bleed through most journal pages, so I understand if you are offended.

Here’s the thing about the Pilot Frixion pens: they erase using the heat generated by the friction of he eraser on the paper and it’s a perfect erase. I took Sarina’s Frixion pen obsession to a whole new level and bought the big 24 set. Looooook how pretty….

If our pen choices don’t turn your crank, look around at one of our favorite sources for pens and other addictive office items, JetPens or MochiThings. I apologize in advance.

Other fun things I’ve kept on a running list this year:

Bulk blank notebooks with kraft paper covers (I keep the tiny ones, 10 for $24) in my pocket or wallet at all times because I’m 52 and starting to forget things.

This adorable Kaweco fountain pen in smooth sage. It’s tiny and light, and I love it. I linked the medium nib but it comes in lots of versions. The ink is specific to this pen and comes in lots of colors, too.

I am terrible with glasses. Mine get left all over the place (there are three pairs of glasses in my woods, right now, sitting on stumps or logs I can’t locate) and I scratch them far too quickly. That said, this soft but upright Tät Tat glasses (or whatever) case really helps. I keep it on my nightstand and consequently I’ve managed to hold on to at least one pair of unscratched prescription glasses. Mine’s grey-blue.

Oh, and since people ask me all the time about my glasses, they are Warby Parker Ainsley in Marzipan Tortoise.

Did you know Sarina made her own journal for romance readers? Yes, indeedy. The Kissing Books Journal by Heart Eyes Press. In fact, Sarina told me she even keeps a “Gifts for Readers and Writers” list on Amazon, so here’s that, too.

Finally, since few of us need more stuff, don’t forget about memberships to The Authors Guild or PEN America. Members of The Authors Guild get access to legal services, web services, insurance discounts, all kinds of great webinars and events, and the opportunity to build your community of writer friends. This year, The Authors Guild helped advocate for writers and got Amazon to change its ebook return policy and was instrumental in getting ZLibrary taken down and its creators arrested and indicted for piracy. PEN America offers writer and reader memberships and both are vital to supporting their work advocating for for free speech, fighting censorship and book banning, and protecting writers from online abuse.

NB: some of these items listed at Amazon have affiliate codes on them which means Sarina or I might make a few cents here or there from Amazon’s coffers. I tried to link to smaller retailers wherever possible, though!

Happy holidays to all of you. We appreciate you all so very, very much.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Tell Someone Else's Story: Episode 340 with Allison Gilbert Nov 25, 2022

Pain by Elsie Robinson

Imagine discovering that one of the highest paid, most well known journalists in the world, whose voice dominated the Hearst media empire for more than 30 years, who wrote something like 9,000 published articles…

has basically disappeared from living memory.

That’s the story of Julia Scheer and Allison Gilbert’s biography: Listen World: How the Intrepid Elsie Robinson Became America’s Most-Read Woman. The story of this podcast is how Allison came to enlist Julia and finish the project, which came from the discovery of one of Robinson’s poems (and please note this was not a woman who was best known for her poems) in her mother’s papers thirty years ago.

We talk about Elsie—whose writing secrets and mantras sound like things you could hear any day on the podcast—as well as the process of defining the project, finding a co-writer and shifting your own work, and even your own bio, in order to become the writer of a new kind of book.

Links

First, our new mantra: It is the Parked Profile, not the Divine Spark, which is the secret of success. (i.e.: Keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.)

Elsie’s Writing Manifesto and Top 5 Quotes on Writing.

A novelization of another famous women of the era: The Personal Librarian

Fab reviews of Listen, World:

Wall Street Journal

New York Times

Washington Post

Allison’s colleague and co-author, Julia Scheeres

Allison’s website

#AmReading

Allison: Lab Girl, Hope Jahren

The Successful Woman, Dr. Joyce Brothers

KJ: Out of the Clear Blue Sky, Kristan Higgins

Also mentioned—The Crappy Friends Podcast

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Lit Mags, Grants and Residencies: a best-we-can how-to for an always changing but more approachable than we imagine world. Episode 339 with Patrice Gopo Nov 18, 2022

Ever feel like some things are just outside your ken? I’m that way with literary magazines. And I’ve never found the right retreat or residency, or applied for a grant, and I know sometimes it’s just that I don’t think I belong in that world.

But worlds don’t usually just reach out and drag you in. That’s a fave theme of ours around here—you can’t be published unless you write something, etc. If you want to be part of a literary world you have to find it and start looking around for a door.

This podcast is ALL about finding doors. And knocking, and however you want to extend the metaphor—and it was great. As I’ve said before, you can tell a practical podcast by the number of links that end up in there, and there are a ton of useful links below.

And let me add to all of it my favorite old school book on a similar topic, Making A Literary Life from Carolyn See. I hope this talk with Patrice inspires you to get OUT THERE.

About our guest: Patrice Gopo is an award-winning essayist and the author of books for adults and children. Her essay collection, All the Colors We Will See, was Barnes & Noble Discover Great New Writers selection. Her debut picture book, All the Places We Call Home, was inspired by one of the essays in her collection. She’s the child of Jamaican immigrants, but she was born and raised in Anchorage, Alaska—which gives her a pretty unique perspective on everything from racial identity formation and immigration to weather and life in the great outdoors. She’s had essays in a ton of publications, including Catapult, Charlotte Magazine, Creative Nonfiction, and AFAR Magazine, and her essay “That Autumn” received a notable mention in the Best American Essays 2020—which is HUGE. She’s also the recipient of a North Carolina Arts Council Artist Fellowship and a Sustainable Arts Foundation Award—and I’m telling you all these details because literary magazines, grants and residencies are exactly what we’re planning to talk about.

Links from the Pod

Literary Mama

Relief: A Journal of Art and Faith

Publisher’s Weekly Lit Mag Database

Funds for Writers database

Clifford Garstang

Poets & Writers: Literary Magazines

Lit Mag News!

Creative NonFiction Classes (Patrice mentioned teacher Lisa Olen Harris)

North Carolina Arts Council

Patricia Gopo’s Grant Application Tips

PatriceGopo.com Writing Resources

St. Nell’s Humor Writing Residency

National Endowment for the Arts

Sustainable Arts Foundation

#AmReading

Patrice: Nothing Special, Desiree Cooper

When Stars Are Scattered, Omar Mohamed and Victoria Jamieson

The Anti-Racist Writing Workshop, Felicia Rose Chavez

KJ: A Rather Haunted Life (Ruth Franklin's biography of Shirley Jackson)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

The 30-Day Revision: Episode 338 How KJ Revised a Novel in 30 Days/189 Hours and approximately 72 Chocolate-Covered Peeps Nov 11, 2022

Many of you have heard me (this is obviously KJ) whine about my revision in process. Well, I’m here to report that it’s done, and successfully. Below is a full description of the process, and in the episode you’ll hear me talking about it with Jennie Nash. I detail everything except the Peeps that fueled me, and I decided it was wrong to leave them out.

So, in addition to a lot of butt-in-chair time and a surprising number of hours spend really just staring the at screen, I should own that I also ate a lot of Halloween peeps and most of a bag of fun-sized $100,000 bars. And I would have eaten the whole bag but someone else beat me too it, and they owe me big.

Here it is in writing, THE LONG VERSION: How to do a substantial novel revision in 30 days

The Overview

I had a long, rambling, completed draft of a book with a solid plot and decent thematic/internal story. The magic system was unclear and the romance undeveloped, and I had too many side-characters and too many scenes that weren’t doing more than one job. Because it’s a seasonal book, I couldn’t take my time with a revision without getting pushed another full year out. So we were shooting for publication in less than a year—and we needed to leave some time, tbh, for me to get this wrong and have to fix it again. Thus: 30 days to a revision that involved nearly a full rewrite, even though the characters, story and in particular the plot excitement of the ending would stay the same.

What the hell did I sell?

At the time, I thought I sold a solid, almost-ready 102K draft. Looking back, I see I sold an idea (Grown-up Gilmore Girls meets Practical Magic with a stolen set of family Tarot cards with powers and a mission of their own) and a rambling, creaky proof-of-concept draft with a solid plot at its core and characters my editor liked and wanted to spend time with.

What this was: Same basic plot, both inside and out. I’ve done revisions that required altering a major plot point or removing characters. This did not.

Same characters.

Same themes, but narrowed and clarified.

A few thoughts on that—the draft I sold was, in my mind, intentionally “edit-able”. There comes a point in a draft when editing it is hard. When what you have is both very polished and tightly wound, the editor may be able to see what’s wrong, but pulling it out will be more painful for the writer, because you’ve locked down all the story elements to intertwine and all the language, etc. This wasn’t that—when I yanked out scenes, they were at least flabby or tangential. I didn’t have to feel too bad about it. And the story wasn’t quite locked in as well. So none of this was unexpected. I know this editor likes to edit and is really good at it.

That said, it WAS a … third or fourth draft or fifth, I can’t remember. I’d done a lot of work on it. When I let go of it I thought it was pretty darn good. When I got it back I was like, OMG I can’t BELIEVE I gave this to anyone, it’s so long and there are scenes that don’t go anywhere and it takes forever to get to the point. And in many ways I had done too much writing work on a story that wasn’t ready to be written (although some of that is necessary for me to find the story).

So a) I thought this was a lot better than it was and b) even after you sell a book, sometimes there is substantial work still to be done and that is fine, it doesn’t mean you’re terrible and the story is crap and the editor is staring at it and thinking, I cannot believe I bought this horrible piece of junk. (Or so I kept telling myself, over and over and over.) And c) apparently what you go out with can be (and will be) far, far from perfect. Even if you think it is.

All that said, some editors don’t edit. I was talking with another writer at a party recently, a NYT best-seller who broke out on her seventh novel, and has written 2 more since, told me that she doesn’t get edited any more. That may be because of her skill and experience (and if so, I am so not there and can go back to feeling terrible about this draft) but I’ve heard the same from newer novelists. And debut novelists, although that situation is a little different, as our debuts are usually the product of a longer period of work and often working with paid editors or readers.

I knew this editor and knew what to expect. If I was submitting to an unknown editor, I would submit something that—to me—was ready to go. Which, I should say, does not mean that it won’t get the same big editorial treatment, so it’s important to be ready for that and accept it. It also doesn’t mean it wouldn’t need it.

The goal for this go-round.

Major notes from my editor: it’s too long, and it drags. The magic system is unclear. The motivations of several major secondary characters who move the plot are unclear. The love story is an afterthought. There’s too much of one secondary character and not enough of 2 others. Too much internal monologue, too many conversations in parts that should be action. The deep backstory (i.e where the magic comes from) should be super-clear to me but mostly unseen by the reader.

Minor notes: Some scenes don’t work hard enough. Magic should be more magical. The stakes are high, but make it more clear what they are. More descriptions of the cute town and shop.

My editor suggested a fresh structure of the first half of the book that moved it more quickly, which was very helpful. There are two inciting incidents, and we moved things so one of them happens very very quickly (the return of the magic) and the other later, after the first had more time to develop (the magic goes badly).

I had two calls with my editor, the first before she wrote her (10 page!) editorial letter and the second after I’d read it. I didn’t do any revision in between—I re-wrote the flap copy and worked on their author questionnaire (and if you’ve never done one of those, they’re quite long). We also wrote the tagline. Both of those—the flap copy and the tagline—were really helpful in reminding me what it was I was doing here, especially the tagline, which ended up on a post-it on my desktop: Flair is done with magic. But magic isn’t done with her.

I needed to cut at least 10K words, make the magic, the plot and the motivations of the characters around it clear, bring the romance forward and take out a lot of action (and a few tertiary characters and events) that were obscuring the main story.

An aside: I think we’re either writers who stuff too much into the story (and write long) or writers who get right to the point (and write short). Whichever you are, outlining a favorite book in your genre or one that really did whatever your goal is (page-turner, thought-provoking, slow burn) successfully for you can really help. How many additional characters and plotlines were there? Which did you remember at the end of the book? How many did you really love, or really contributed to the book’s success with you? Did they move the plot and the inner story or just one or the other?

I did this during my revision and found it really helpful. Again. For me, outlining—or at least thinking about specific elements—of books I hope to be like on some level is always a good move.

The numbers

Original: 102K/330 pp 36 chapters

Revision: 83K/298 pp 30 chapters

30 days/189.5 hours of butt-in-chair. This does not count anxiety dreams, walks to think through problems or time spent staring at other people and nodding while thinking about book.

Longest day: 11 hours (I had 2 11 hour days and 5 10 hour days)

What did that look like? 7-8 hours before dinner, with a substantial dinner stop that often included a walk or short bike ride, then back at it until 11 pm or so. I’m a natural night owl, so that’s not that hard for me.

Shortest: 1.5 (I traveled 3x during the 30 days, so I knew in advance that there would be several days when I did very little.)

The shortest “real” day—as in, I didn’t drive for 8 hours or spend a full day in family activity—was 6 hours. I’d consider that a normal day, and if I hadn’t been in a rush I would say that’s about ideal.

Average: 6.3

The mechanics

I made one big decision first thing: I decided not to work in the draft, even though it had (relatively few) line notes from my editor. Instead, I decided to return to Scrivener.

The big advantage to Scrivener is the ability to move from chapter to chapter easily—as in, when you realize you’re quoting something said in an earlier chapter, it’s in the outline off to the side and easy to pop up and see, or if you realize you’ve forgotten something, ditto. That’s really tough in 300 pp in Word, or even if you pull out each chapter and work on them separately in Word. And the risk of choosing an old version is high for me. This worked really well, and I would do it again on any revision where I didn’t need to be following line notes in Word. The ease of moving around a doc in Scrivener cannot be beat.

I also decided not to pull out each chapter, put it in Scrivener and plan to revise it. Here’s why—there was a LOT in this draft that wasn’t going to make it into the final. At a minimum I needed to cut 10K/15pp. But truly, so much needed re-writing as much as revising—or maybe I should say, there was a lot of new material that needed to fit in. It would be easier to take what I needed from the old draft and add it to new stuff than to cut things, especially things I liked. Most of the scenes I needed had been written, but interspersed with scenes I did not. It was MUCH easier not to even look at those scenes again unless, say, I began writing a conversation and thought –they’ve done this before. Then I’d go dig it out.

Instead, I tackled it bit by bit, taking out the part I planned to work on and creating a Scrivener folder for it. I divided my book into about 6 sections—broadly, the beginning, the beginning of the middle, the midpoint scenes, the beginning of the end, the big action at the end and then the end. I planned for it all to end up in Scrivener and to compile it out from there.

I often did the editing in Word by pulling out, say, three chapters that needed to become 2, dumping them into a fresh word doc (that way I got my editor’s comments, too), giving it a name and working in there by also opening a dumping ground word doc next to (on desktop) or behind (laptop) it. I’d pull out a huge chunk, put it in the dumping ground and then go snatch lines or paragraphs as needed. This also gave me confidence, because the original always remained whole. I could always go back and get something if I needed it.

Those Word docs looked like this:

I drafted new material in Scrivener. Once or twice, I duplicated a chapter so that I could try something and see if it worked but easily go back to a previous version, which Scrivener also makes easy. I did some smaller chapter revisions in Scrivener too, although often I did them in Word and then pasted the result into Scrivener.

I created multiple outlines (about which more in the next section), and often—especially as I got closer to the end—included target word counts, and I really paid attention to those. I have a tendency to repeat things, especially in dialogue, and keeping an awareness of where I was in the scene/chapter in terms of middle and approaching end helped me move things faster.

Why are my fingers not moving?

Of that 189.5 hours, I spent approximately 103 staring at the screen, outlining, prewriting, staring, outlining again, and generally struggling.

I loosely outlined my revision with my editor before I started. A few days in I crashed headlong into the first wall and pulled back to really outline. We’d focused mostly on plot, which was just great—but what I ran into was the question of why anyone did anything and then, what the reader knew and believed when and what they were wondering about.

It seems so straightforward now, but on day four I wrote in my calendar (I keep a calendar record of what I actually did, as opposed to what I meant to do, often quite different): “struggling.” And struggle I did, for 9 days. I tried summarizing, I tried outlining, I tried fitting the story into various structures. I did a lot of prewriting of dialogue, which is dialogue with no punctuation and no tags or stage direction, which was one of the most useful things I did—just basically let the characters yell what they really thought at one another and then used it in various places. Here’s an example:

Mocking her. None of those cards were for her, they never were.

What came next, Nana taught her, was what you faced.

The card that, for Flair, held the flash of premonition, the knowledge of what was coming.

She pushed it away. She didn’t want it. She didn’t want the cards, not even these cookies, to exert their control. She didn’t want to know what would happen. She knew what she wasn’t going to let happen.

He can’t take Lucie from me.

The Hermit. Herself, alone.

A figure on the ground, lucie’s frightened eyes, the five of cups. She hadn’t even made a five of cups. Death—we cannot outwit death and we cannot outwit change—that was not what lay ahead.

They were just cookies.

I made them.

They’re mine.

None of that. She reached out, seized on the Devil, that card of control, to push it away with all her might but found her grip tightening on it.

Because of David. David needs to do what I want and leave my daughter alone.

Whew. Harsh.

Well, he’s an a*****e. She can’t go live with him.

Agreed. But you know what I think.

I know, enabling, blah blah. Well that’s done. I’m done with him. As long as he’s done with Lucie.

Oh yeah that sounds like you’ve totally let him go in a healthy way.

Flair picked up death and bit its head off.

Oh, maybe we leave the nice cookies alone now, morticia. I think you’ve had enough.

And then things went on well enough for a little over a week. And then I hit another wall and spent 2 days circling around, again, why one secondary character (the antagonist) would do what she does and how she would interact with my protagonist, in particular in one scene—what would she be offering and why would it work? That seemed to go on forever. Part of the problem was that I had two different elements of her motivation that I quite liked but I couldn’t keep them both, and I kept leaning in one direction, then the other, depending on what I was working on… honestly I can barely remember the details now, but that’s when I created the document labeled “pick a f*****g side”.

Sometimes you just need to make a decision and write it that way. Sure, save your place so you can go back and all that. But sometimes you just have to CHOOSE.

At about the same time I sent my agent what I had, and she didn’t like the first chapter and that… let’s just say I took that badly. I mean, she had like 35K words and she liked them all except the opening 3K. IT WAS FINE. And revising them later was really good. But I might have had a slightly unprofessional meltdown.

A few quotes from that time: 10/8, 12 PM: Day of Panic. Why does anyone do anything? Why?

10/9, 1 AM: Ugly ugly ugly

10/9, 10 AM: Still staring at Loretta scene….

10/9, 7 PM: Finally back on track!

In which I actually revise actual words on actual pages

So after about 30 hours of returning to outlining/prewriting/cursing mode, I found my way back in, moved a scene to earlier, revised some transitions and then… finally… chugged along to the end. Where I’d known all along that the action would remain the same, but the dialogue/internal dialogue would change a lot. (In part because, right at the most dramatic moment when life and death hang in the balance, I … had two people go have a heart-to-heart about their relationship. Twice.)

But I knew it wouldn’t be hard to revise, and it wasn’t. It was such a relief to be there, too! And then I changed one part of the end dramatically, which oddly didn’t involve changing that much text, and then, instead of dropping straight out of the story and heading to a “one month later” style epilogue, I actually WROTE the end of the story, which I know will be way more satisfying for readers. The other was largely a choice made from exhaustion.

Once I’d solved all the problems (that are going to be solved in this draft, anyway), it took 4 days to actually revise the rest of the book and get to the end, a glorious moment.

Which was immediately followed by rewriting the first two chapters, and then it was on to my checklist.

The yellow and the green

Jennie Nash suggests a stoplight checklist for revisions—Red/Yellow/Green. I had such a list, at the beginning of this process. But I quickly realized that so much was red here that, for the most part, that was all I could do. I fixed some green things (changed the name of a character, physical descriptions, that kind of thing) as I went and had an awareness of some yellow (build up this relationship, tighten the dialogue) but I was very much concentrating on red. So I kept a running list of things I’d need to go back and revise for at the end. Here’s what that looked like:

Play up can’t use magic without cards even more esp cyn

Craft enclave. Kansas League of Craftswomen/coven, build up trail’s importance again

Bakery has bright turquoise boxes with the logo stamped on them by her

Josie is still an EMT

Cyn needs to know who Alice is

Maybe Renee would call Flair Harwicke? Maybe she coached some ridiculous soccer team they were on once?

Loretta lick lip

Add Jude pop rocks

Back of the cards: On each was an elaborate medallion, a fleur de lis with an eye inside a triangle made of a floral vine,

Loretta and Jude: The tough, genuinely ruthless spirit had also doted on him and raised him, supported his dreams, pushed him to be more, driven him relentlessly, had—along with Renee—turned him into who he was today, good and bad/or wtf IS the deal between him and Loretta and Renee? Because Renee didn’t tell him anything, bc she never gave him any credit.

Josie’s sig other still in national guard

Someone needs to extinguish flames as well as start them. Maybe make point that it’s easiet to put out your own fire?

BLACK MOON is big deal all over

Some of those I ended up disregarding. Some were literally one line additions (green), others I needed to look at in nearly every chapter—which could be green (hair color, bakery boxes) or yellow (the relationship between two characters). I made a tidier checklist and then went back through most of the chapters in the book, line editing and addressing those issues.

Anything I’d really worked on and didn’t want to touch again, I mostly left for the next round. Which I knew would come.

How did it turn out?

Well. Fabulously. Here’s this, from my editor:

Wow! Amazing! I don’t think I’ve ever had a book improve so much from the first draft to the second. You have done incredible work. Brava! Standing ovation! You took all the different elements that had so much potential and you pulled them tightly together into a story that is constantly moving forward, has a solid internal logic, makes use of the fun magic that is dying to be used, but without making it kitschy, and that has a wonderful happy ending. I’m truly amazed by how far you have taken the book in just one draft. I’m also impressed by how much self-editing I can tell that you did. There are so many fewer instances of circular thinking, sentences where it’s difficult to parse the meaning, and using forty words when twenty would do. It’s hard to self-edit and you have done it and I’m very grateful.

Do note that she managed to list all the things I usually do poorly (most particularly, “using 40 words where 20 would do”) and that she’s this excited because the last time I did a revision for her, I managed to actually make the book worse.

So.

Maybe I learned, maybe I didn’t. But this one goes in the win column!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Publishing's Secret Side-Door: Episode 337 Writing Object Lessons and Books-for-series with Maria Teresa Hart Nov 04, 2022

Sometimes your first book is a gateway. For me—KJ—it was Reading with Babies, Toddlers and Twos, a book I wrote in 2006 with Susan Straub. Susan was the expert and I was a rising writer with a lesser expertise riding on her coattails. We pitched the book before I had many bylines at all—but adding the words “is the author of the forthcoming book…” to my pitches opened a lot of doors. The book itself was shorter and much differently formatted than standard non-fiction.

Many writers get started this way, with gift books, guides and other non-fiction books that follow existing formats or fit into existing series. (The fiction version would be work-for-hire chapter books or books within a fandom—and we’d love to talk about that if you have guest ideas.)

Maria Teresa Hart is a writer and editor who works most often in food and travel, with a series of impressive bylines that range from the New York Times and The Atlantic to VICE and Business Insider, but she came on the pod to talk about the experience of writing a book for a publishing house within an existing series. Her book, Doll, is part of Bloomsbury’s Object Lessons series. We talk about how that happened, what it was like and how an experience like this can become an doorway into larger opportunities in publishing.

LINKS

Maria Teresa Hart’s book, DOLL, is a pop-culture feminist critique of doll history and culture, from Raggedy Ann to Barbie to android sex dolls. Find it HERE.

Readers of Jane Friedman’s The Hot Sheet (if you’re not a subscriber, I recommend it, find it HERE) can read an interesting piece about work-for-hire in fiction fandoms in the 9/28/22 issue.

High Heel, Summer Brennan

Object Lessons Series

objectsobjectsobjects.com

Object lessons essay series in The Atlantic

Maria Teresa’s essay on Bidets

33 1/3 series

33 1/3 WEBSITE

Barbie movie

AmReading

Maria Teresa: The Witches of Willow Cove, Josh Roberts

How to Be Eaten, Maria Adelmann

KJ: The Final Girl Support Group, Grady Hendrix

Small Town, Big Magic by Hazel Beck

https://www.mariateresahart.com, Twitter: /maritehart, IG: @mariathart

Don’t forget that Author Accelerator is your one-stop for getting a coach on board to help you with your work, no matter where you are in the drafting game. Need a pro? Click here. And if you’ve considered becoming a book coach, here’s your link: Click here.

Also…. you know we here at #AmWriting tend to think working with a book coach or developmental editor is the gold standard for getting help with your project. But that’s not always in the cards—and even if it is, doing as much as you can before bringing in help is often a smart approach. (Although throwing small amounts of $$ at things for years until you’ve spent as much as you would have if you’d just gone all in is not…. so if that resonates with you go find a book coach already!)

The women of Pages & Platforms have created a course they call Story Path after years of going through this process on their own, and helping many clients fix their stories and finish their books. They saw how many people struggled with getting from a zero draft to a professional, working draft and made Story Path to help other writers get to “the end” faster.

Here’s what you’ll get in the course:

* You’ll have the tools you need to understand what type of story you’re telling and how to use it to satisfy readers

* You’ll finally be able to have an objective means to evaluate important aspects of your story

* You’ll map a plan to a complete professional draft that will have readers eager to turn the page

* You’ll have the confidence to keep on the path!

The developmental editors of Pages & Platforms provide 20 multimedia lessons, worksheets, exercises and quizzes to help you apply your knowledge to your work-in-progress, monthly live group coaching calls and 12 months of access to the course materials.

Here’s some feedback from a real student when she first started (she’s now querying her completed novel!):

“Already ‘Story Path’ has proven invaluable, and we’re barely halfway through the course! It’s given me (an aspiring novelist stalled on bringing my rough draft in for a landing) the tools, frameworks, and inspiration needed to confidently tackle both my ending and effective revision of a complete ‘professional draft.’ Hawley, Ramirez, and Campbell probably saved me from tons of angst and flailing around. I highly recommend this course!”

—Carolyn Cowen, novelist

This one is NOT FREE. But putting your $$ where your mouth is can be very very motivating. So if it sounds like it’s for you, get all the details and register HERE. We’re an affiliate, so we do make a little something if you decide to sign up —but please know that we only team up with people and businesses we trust!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Why You Should Do NaNoWriMo (and how to make the most of it) 336 Oct 28, 2022

I (KJ here) adore Nanowrimo. Tell me it’s impossible to write a whole novel in a month, especially a month with Thanksgiving in it, and I will set out to prove you wrong. My first novel, The Chicken Sisters started as a NaNo project, as did Playing the Witch Card (which is probably coming out in Fall 2023).

I… cannot NaNo this year (yes it’s a verb), because my next set of revisions, with an accompanying deadline, will be heading my way in the last week of October. But Jess can and will!

So I offered Jess my favorite advice on a successful NaNoWritMo—the KJ version, at least. Here’s how I approached last year’s NaNoWriMo, and it worked pretty well in the end:

My first novel clocks in at around 107K, my current WIP draft is at 99K. I favor long, convoluted sentences. I like to express things in sets of three—reasons the character is reacting as she is, emotions that are bombarding her, the ways her body responds— or even five: lists, smells, tastes, memories, expressions and as I have just demonstrated, I tend to use a lot of punctuation while I’m doing it.

I do this from the very beginning. If I’m writing a scene, I write a whole scene. The people move, they eat, they smell and taste and feel, they think about their backstory: the whole shebang. Historically, that’s meant two things. First, when November 30 rolls around, I’ll have 50,000 words—but I’ll only have a draft of about half of my story.

Second, I’ll have put in a lot of time writing those long sentences and and elaborate scenes. The terrible truth about my first drafts is that the writing tends to be pretty good. The dialogue flows, the action moves, there’s humor and pathos and feeling in the way the characters interact with one another.

It’s the story that usually sucks.

Getting to The End, not The Middle

I suspect that to some extent it will always be this way for me. I plot, then I write, then I discover that the plot doesn’t create room to bring the character to the place where she needs to be and I have to go back and do it all over again. But I also suspect I could do that initial finding my way to a character arc and plot that weave together in a way that satisfies the whole a lot more efficiently if I just wrote fewer words.

Make a Plan

To do that, I need a plan that forces me out of my usual loquacious style, and here it is: I divide my 30 days and 50,000 words into a beginning (6 days, 10K) , a middle (18 days, 30K) and an end (6 days and 10K again). World-building and character riffing are fine as long as I stick to the schedule.

Write Some, Pre-write Some or Just Say What Happens

Next, I pay attention to time and word count. If I’m lingering and I need to move along, I throw down some plans and some prewriting. Conversation about the Halloween event here. Town history TK. Some prescient line that recurs at end.

So that’s my weird NaNoWriMo plan: write fewer words, but get more of the whole picture on the page, with the goal of finding my way to “the end” instead of “the middle”. I know (and you know) that it won’t really be the end. There will be much, much work ahead—but I’ll have a draft. It will be a terrible draft, as it should be, but it will help me do the work I find hardest: not writing the scenes but finding the story. If I’m lucky I’ll be putting flesh on the bones; if I’m not, I’ll be rebuilding a scaffolding, not taking down a whole house.

And here, from the archives, is a NaNoWriMo Prep list I created a few years back.

Here’s a fun calendar Sarina found:

And a link to How to Do the Blueprint for a Book Challenge.

A few useful past episodes:

#NaWhateverWriMo, Episode 181

#SupporterMini 1: #Prewriting

#AmWriting

Jess: A Little Too Late, Sarina Bowen

Mad Honey, Jodi Picoult & Jennifer Finney Boylan

All Good People Here, Ashley Flowers *for loving the audio version

KJ:

We All Want Impossible Things, and What Can I Say?, Catherine Newman

Reluctant Immortals, Gwendolyn Kiste

Don’t forget that Author Accelerator is your one-stop for getting a coach on board to help you with your work, no matter where you are in the drafting game. Need a pro? Click here. And if you’ve considered becoming a book coach, here’s your link: Click here.

The developmental editors of Pages & Platforms, Anne Hawley and Rachelle Ramirez, want to share their top tips for editing your own work in a FREE webinar Monday 10/31/22.

YOU WILL LEARN:

* Why marketing categories or “genres” don’t help you write a good working story, and what does.

* The three most common structural problems with novels and memoirs and how to start solving them.

* The importance of good working scenes, and how to fix scenes that don’t work.

Learn more HERE. We’re an affiliate, so we do make a little something if you decide to sign up for additional services. But this is FREE. And please know that we only team up with people and businesses we trust!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How Butter Makes Everything (Including Books) Better: Writing Can't-Stop-Won't-Stop Fiction with Theodora Taylor (Flashback Friday) Oct 21, 2022

Listeners, we’re sharing this interview again because if you’re not already subscribed to Theodora’s substack, you should be. We sent you a taste of it this morning on top of this episode. We adored talking to TT, as we like to call her around here—but now that she’s revved up her Substack, every single time we’re texting back and forth about its brilliance. “Butter” has joined our official #AmWriting lexicon.

So, enjoy a favorite that you might have missed when it originally rolled out over the holidays last year.

Notes on the Pod: Who doesn’t want a craft book that’s fun to read and will help you plan your fiction (or memoir), write that fiction, revise that fiction and then sell that fiction? This week we talked to Theodora Taylor, author of more than 50 novels and one brilliant book about writing that made Sarina and I (KJ) go SQUEEEE and then text back and forth frantically for a couple of hours. It’s all about the “Universal Fantasies” that give our story-loving brains the things we need when we read—and how to spot those in your own writing to help you tell people what you’re all about, use them in drafting and revising and just generally make sure they’re everywhere in everything you write—literary, commercial, genre, short stories, novellas—everything.

We read Harry Potter for Hogwarts fun and the hero’s journey—but we also are in it for the universal fantasies of “crushed underdog proves self to loathsome family” and “ordinary person turns out to be special” and “loyal friends can be better than family” and so on—and the thing about those elements is that they appear everywhere. You could find a book in any genre that scratches those itches, and those feelings are a big part of what we’re reading for. As Theodora says, they’re what makes your book taste good.

They’re the butter.

7 Figure Fiction: How to Use Universal Fantasy to Sell Your Books to Anyone

Facebook group: 7 Figure Fiction

https://theodorataylor.com

https://7figurefiction.com

#AmReading

Theodora: Beastars Manga by Paru Itagaki

KJ: Labyrinth Lost by Zoraida Córdova

Sarina: The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle

People my people, if you’re thinking becoming a Book Coach might just be your next sparkly goal, DO NOT MISS this live event with Jennie Nash: Find Your Zone of Genius as a Book Coach, Jennie will host the top reasons people resist starting a new endeavor, and how to fight through those negative thoughts and share how to brainstorm your way to a zone of genius to your book coaching business.

This is a live working session that will not be recorded - because Jennie wants to workshop with YOU on your idea. It’s happening October 27th at 1PM Pacific, 4PM Eastern. FIND OUT MORE.

Also…. you know we here at #AmWriting tend to think working with a book coach or developmental editor is the gold standard for getting help with your project. But that’s not always in the cards. If you’re more in the market for a course that will help you move forward with your project, check Happily Ever After Week. Our friends at Pages and Platforms have distilled what they've learned working with hundreds of authors into a 3-part framework to give you:

* the mindset you need to persist in your efforts,

* the tools you need to write the best book possible,

and the willingness to put yourself out there and build the audience your book deserves. Learn more HERE. We’re an affiliate, so we do make a little something if you decide to sign up. But please know that we only team up with people and businesses we trust!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Work with Small Presses and Literary Magazines—Episode 335 with Terena Bell Oct 14, 2022

Listeners, you KNOW we got granular with this one because there are just plain so many links!

Terena Elizabeth Bell has been writing all her life. Her first short story was published in a literary magazine when she was in college—almost thirty years ago, and she’s published many since and won multiple awards. She’s also written for more than 100 publications, including The Atlantic, The Guardian, Boston Globe, Smithsonian, Playboy, MysteryTribune, and Santa Monica Review. Platform-o-rama, right?

But she could NOT find a publisher for her debut novel or debut short story collection. As she puts it: It wasn't for want of trying. Her novel was turned down by 64 agents.

That novel, RECURSION, and Terena’s short story collection, Tell Me What You See were both purchased within two weeks once Terena decided to turn to the small presses associated with the lit mags she’d been a part of for so long.

We talk about the glories AND problems with small presses, how to be sure you’re talking to a small press and not the kind of hybrid publisher we often warn you about (there are legit hybrids, but be careful out there, many take advantage of writers who don’t understand what they offer), finding the right small presses and literary magazines and what it’s like to be a more literary and experimental writer. It’s a great episode with a lot of information we haven’t covered before.

BONUS: Read Previous guest Joni B. Cole’s When Is It Smart to Submit Your Work to a University Press? (You’d Be Surprised!)

Big Literary journals Duotrope, The Submission Grinder

Association of Writers and Writing Programs Conference

SMOL Fair Readings

NYT article on how Billie Eilish’s platform didn’t sell her book

CamCat Books

Justine Bateman’s book, Fame: The Hijacking of Reality, which her platform also didn’t sell.

The 10 National Book Award Finalists for 2022 include 4 books of short stories.

Beacon Press: an American left-wing non-profit book publisher.

Soho Press: a New York City-based publisher founded by Juris Jurjevics and Laura Hruska in 1986 and currently headed by Bronwen Hruska. It specializes in literary fiction and international crime series.

Best Short Stories of 2022

Malarkey Books

Authors Guild Model Contract

Brooklyn Book Festival

FSG—Farrar Straus Giroux does/does not take unagented submissions

Submittable

The controversy surrounding Roxane Gay’s PANK

ThrillerFest

Find Terena at www.terenabell.com or on Twitter @TerenaBell

#AmReading

Terena: Edith Wharton’s A Glimpse of the Moon, A Son at the Front , and The Custom of the Country

Night Rider, All the Kings Men, both by Robert Penn Warren

KJ: The Letters of Shirley Jackson, as well as the four book omnibus that has Sundial in it (and Alexis Hall’s Paris Daillencourt is About to Crumble and Glitterland)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How Productive Writers get it done (by listening Flashback Friday with Laura Vanderkam) (Replay of Episode 116) Oct 07, 2022

If you’ve listened to any of us for any time at all you know we love Laura Vanderkam, author of I Know How She Does It and 168 Hours: You Have More Time Than You Think. People often attribute to KJ a piece of advice she learned from Laura: People are a good use of time. We think of Laura every time we start to call ourselves “too busy” and then remember that much of what fills our time is a choice, and if we want to do it, we’ll find a way to get it done.

One glorious result—we’re all much better at saying “yes” to the things that are important to us and “no” to the things that would get in their way.

Because we always benefit from a re-read of Laura’s books, we’re bringing this earlier interview out and sharing it again.

Laura also has a new book out: Tranquility by Tuesday: 9 ways to calm the chaos and make time for what matters. The idea is genius: upgrade your Tuesday, upgrade your life. The nine rules here really do offer big impact from small change. We can’t recommend it highly enough!

Also on the horizon: If being a book coach –and you know we love book coaches here--sounds like a dream, but you have no idea how you will run your business or get clients, our friend and sponsor Jennie Nash is hosting an event this month for you.

In Find Your Zone of Genius as a Book Coach, Jennie will share the top reasons people resist starting a new endeavor, and how to fight through those negative thoughts. She’ll also show you how to brainstorm your way to a zone of genius to your book coaching business.

This is a live working session that will not be recorded - because Jennie wants to workshop with YOU on your idea. It’s happening October 27th, 2022 at 1PM Pacific, 4PM Eastern. Head here for more info!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Using tropes and genres like a pro: Ep 334 with Alexis Hall Sep 30, 2022

Alexis Hall describes himself as a genrequeer writer of kissing books. You may know him as the author of Boyfriend Material and Rosalyn Palmer Takes the Cake, both of which we’ve talked about here. But like recent guest Emily Henry and so many others, those successes were far from his first rodeo. Head to his website, quicunquevult.com, to see the evidence. (Why is it called that? You’ll have to listen to find out.) Alexis has written, and still writes, everything from paranormal and fantasy to billionaire romance to rom-com, with the recent addition of genre mystery and historical fiction.

We talk tropes, dialogue and leaning into the the thing you do best then revising for the rest. (And we did it all with a kitten climbing around on my desk, adding to both the joy and the challenge.)

Sarina and I (this is, as usual, KJ) have long hoped to talk to Alexis because he is so prolific and also so willing to take chances. When we finally did, what we heard was someone who doesn’t see himself the way we see him—successful, talented, charming and able to convey all of that on the page. That shouldn’t be a surprise, because he often writes characters with that same block—they’re successful and delightful but see themselves as flawed in some way. That may be almost too generic to be considered advice (after all, we’re often told to write a “misbelief” into our characters)—but I found it striking, because along with the many other emotional journeys Alexis writes, he writes this one often and well: that of a self-perceived f**k-up accepting that they’ve transcended that earlier self and become someone capable and worthy of love.

I’m calling that out here because as we talked to Alexis, we talked about his brand being clever banter and an uber-confident writer’s voice—but I think that emotional journey is part of his brand as well. So this episode left me thinking about how brand is more than the way a book or a writer looks and sounds. It’s also the way the book feels. And when you think about it that way—that the emotional arc and feel are part of the brand as well—I think it may help silence any voice in your head complaining that things are repetitive, or that you’ve “ done that before” or that something has been done by others.

We tell our own stories and the stories that we hold most closely, in fiction, in non-fiction, in whatever we’re working on. Indirectly, directly. Again and again. I hope this episode helps you think about what your story is and how you’re telling it.

LINKS!

Alexis’s books in general are all here.

But you can pre-order Paris Daillencourt Is about to Crumble on Amazon here and Bookshop.org here.

Follow Alexis on Goodreads, Twitter and Instagram.

#AmReading

Alexis: ARC of Kate Clayborn’s Georgie, All Along

Sarina: Dark Matter, Blake Crouch

KJ: Carrie Soto Is Back, Taylor Jenkins Reid

And— this is KJ with a question. Do you own In Her Boots yet? Have you read it yourself, or given it to a friend who’d love a fun story about figuring out who you are as opposed to who you think everyone wants you to be—that also delivers a literary hoax, farm life and an ex who can’t seem to find the exit? If you don’t have it on the shelf yet, now’s the time!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Which Kind of Writer Are You? Flashback Friday with Gretchen Rubin (Replay Episode 107) Sep 23, 2022

Kids, this interview with Gretchen Rubin is just too good not to share again. Find more about Gretchen, and sign up for her always interesting newsletter, here. Want to know which tendency you are? Take the quiz here. And which tendency would you attribute to your hosts? Answers coming soon… (or maybe in the episode…)

Writers, do you read Sarina Bowen? If you don’t, you should—first off because her books are killer fun, and secondly because every one is a masterclass in pacing, characterization and plot—and if you think plotting romance is easy because “we know what’s going to happen” then call me again after you’ve tried it. Her latest is A Little Too Late. Find out more at SarinaBowen.com.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Very Serious About Fun Reads Ep 333 with Emily Henry Sep 16, 2022

THIS EPISODE. “Overnight success” Emily Henry reminds us that she’s not—she published three sad-and-serious YA novels before she embraced her real calling and wrote the book she craved—Beach Read, which she says “I never expected to send to anyone.”

This discussion was so true to our hearts (KJ writing, Sarina co-signing). It’s hard to for some of us to give ourselves permission to write fun books in a world where “things we like” and especially “things women like” are often dismissed as less worthy. Sarina reminded us of this George Michael quote—when asked when he was going to “write serious music” his response was “You don’t understand. I’m very serious about pop music.” And KJ immediately demanded that everyone read This Is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch which is, instead, a book about exactly what we just said. That you should read. Immediately. We’ll wait.

Links in the Pod

#AmWriting Episode 302 with Katherine Center

#AmReading

Emily: Miss Aldridge Regrets, Louise Hare

The Bodyguard, Katherine Center

The Change, Kirsten Miller

Sarina: The Bodyguard, Katherine Center

Upgrade, Blake Couch (Emily then shouted out Dark Matter and The Letty Dobesh Chronicles with its Good Behavior TV adaptation)

KJ: This Is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch, Tabitha Carvan

Thank You for Listening, Julia Whelan

Emily Henry on Insta: @emilyhenrywrites

Join Emily’s newsletter: Get My Grocery List

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Plan for Fall When You Don't EVEN Know... Episode 332 Sep 09, 2022

WHOA heading into fall like

Hope you’re feeling the fall mojo more than we are. Struggling here, which is a bummer because usually fall is the season that gives when it comes to forward momentum. We, a subset of three, can’t tell if this is a mood that’s overtaken us all, or if it’s life stage specific when you have kids leaving the house, or if it’s just that that the weird weather is taking its toll.

A suggestion, if you too are grasping at momentum straws? Change it up. Have a ridiculous adventure. Sarina and I (KJ here as always) teamed up with another friend and some assorted partners and went… to the Hilton Garden Inn to hear their “house band”.

Because when you tell me the Hilton Garden Inn has a house band, I say, bring it on. It fully lived up to the promise of the phrase. The band was a couple of talented guys, an enormous amp and a repertoire of songs ranging from originals to Thin Lizzie to… I don’t know. It would probably have all been quite loud for my old ears, except that we were outside, overlooking the bus station, and the band was… in the parking lot.

The waitress had bright red hair and a constantly changing wardrobe and strongly recommended the salmon.

Everyone was trying very hard, no one seemed to know what we were trying hard for, and high levels of absurdity were reached.

I know, not EVERYONE has a Hilton Garden Inn House Band. But perhaps there is something, somewhere to go where humanity transcends our urge to mock ourselves and just plays The Boys Are Back in Town in the parking lot for people eating chicken fingers and jalapeño poppers. Which were excellent.

Links from the pod:

Leuchtturm monthly B5 planner

Sarah Stewart Taylor

Nanowrimo

#AmReading

Jess: Carrie Soto Is Back, Taylor Jenkins Reid

Thank You for Listening, Julia Whelan

Sarina: Girl, Forgotten, Karin Slaughter

Jess also mentioned Michael Connelly and Wonder Boys, Michael Chabon

KJ: Also a Poet, Ada Calhoun

Also mentioned, and Jess is now reading: The Last Chairlift, John Irving

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus BP10: How to set your own goals, and meet them. Sep 05, 2022

You’ve got everything you need to write this book—so what now? You may be feeling pumped and ready to dive in, or you may be feeling overwhelmed. I know that the truth is that you’re all at somewhat different stages of this. Some of you were working with totally new material, others imposing a better structure on a project you’ve been working on for a long time and others somewhere in between. But wherever you are, this is a hard moment—because you’re going to have to take off the training wheels and pedal this bike on your own.

For many of us, these assignments, while challenging, also offer kind of a crutch. They’re things to check off a list, signs of progress, short achievable goals. They’re real and so is the progress they represent but they’ve also made things a little easier by providing structure—and now you need to provide that structure for yourself.

In the episode, we talked about moving your project forward—the book, the chapters, the scenes, the story. Right now I want to talk mechanics. It’s one thing to know it’s time to write the book and another to know how—in terms of tools and timing—you’re going to do it. This bonus suggests you create your own goals and measurements to help you to both move forward—and to see yourself making that progress. Hours, words per day, specific in-book goals … they all work. The trick is setting them ahead of time and them meeting them.

And—that’s it! You’ve blueprinted. Huge congrats are in order for getting this done. Hope to see you at the AMA in two weeks.

Here’s the link for the End of Blueprint AMA on Friday September 16 at 12PM Eastern: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/89290223042?pwd=QkUrbkpoWm51REFLbkdiaTdPZENPZz09

How to listen: if you’ve listened to any previous Bonus episodes or Minisodes, this one should already BE in your podcast feed. If not, click on the link to listen and you’ll find yourself at amwriting.substack.com. You COULD listen there, but we’re guessing you’d rather get all subscriber episodes, from now on, in your usual podcast-listening app. It’s easy, and you only have to do it once to get every #Minisode from now on right where you want it.

So click “listen in podcast app.” You’ll get an email with a link in it. Click the link—ON YOUR PHONE—and you will get a menu of the most popular podcast apps. Chose yours and click, and you’ll have a new “private” podcast feed for supporters only.

If your favorite listening app isn’t included, fear not. There’s an RSS link in the email. Your podcast app has a way to add that—it’s probably a “+” sign somewhere on your main page. Add the link once, and any time we do a #SupporterMini, you’ll get it without having to do a thing. (Trust us, it’s easy. This is WHY we chose Substack.)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus BP9: How to Keep Going When All You See Are the Problems Aug 29, 2022

You’re rolling into the final week of the challenge my friend! And yes, this episode is late. We’re rolling into the final moments before school starts in my house, and things are rough.

But not in our Blueprints! Those are perfect… hahahahahaha.

Listen. Your Blueprint isn’t perfect. This Inside/Outline or Outcome Outline sitting there, so shiny and new? It has flaws, my friend, flaws that will seem glaring to you in about a month or six months or a year or all three.

Last week you went through a checklist to try to test that puppy out, and it helped. But as you head forward—as you start writing, keep writing, draft the beginning six times (don’t do that) and face the muddly middle (go back to that outline) and drag your way to the end (and then rewrite it)—there will be times when you doubt.

When everything in the whole world you ever imagined will seem like it would make a better book than this sad, sorry pile of words. Words? Ha! They’re barely letters.

So this little bonus is me at just such a moment, telling you what I’m doing to drag my sorry butt back to the chair and get my head back in the game.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus BP8: Easier Outlining for the Loquacious and the Reluctant Aug 22, 2022

This short outline thing is hard. It’s hard for one of two possible reasons: Either you don’t want to write an outline at all, bc “you know what you’re going to write” or you “hate outlining” or “don’t want to practically write it before I write it” OR you love outlining and could do it all day, to the tune of 17 pages all about what this is about and what it’s going to say and therefore “can’t possibly fit this onto 2 pages!”

Both of you, chill. It’s okay. You’re going to do this, and I suspect that you’ll end up liking it. The cool thing is that the thing that makes it easier—to either outline at all or to make a short outline as opposed to the monster some of us tend to create—is actually the same. (And don’t worry—there’s a place for those monster outline instincts. That’s called pre-writing, and we have a whole episode about it coming up in the fall.) Making outlines for fiction easier is all about where you start (try the end or the middle), and focusing on the emotions and tentpole events rather than on the plot.

In non-fiction, the same reluctance applies—especially if you think you know where you’re going or what you’re doing. Know your topic inside and out? Think you could “write this book in your sleep” because you write, lecture or teach about the subject all the time, or it’s your business? Do you have a list of things to cover chapter by chapter, or a particular memoir story to tell? Then you need an outline desperately. Trust me. Can you write this book without one? Yep. Will it be the book you want it to be? Almost certainly not, and I speak from experience. You, two, may be inclined to either gloss over this, or to want to write reams, going into detail about each area you intend to cover.

But doing either will get in your way. The path to a better book—one that has readers turning the pages of even a how-to in order to get to the next thing, or engrosses them in a chronological story of a thing they’ve never done and have no interest in doing—lies in getting this skeleton right. In non-fiction, that means finding a way to build interest and knowledge so that the reader constantly sees the need to follow you through to the end. In your outline, focus on the repeating themes and topics and the way those develop for the reader as they progress through the book.

Keeping it short forces you to look hard at what you’re building before you cover it with glitter and tinsel and helps you see and work on the flaws before they get baked in.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus BP7: Finding Your Drivers Aug 15, 2022

Pace, y’all. It’s the magic secret sauce in everything. And yet it’s also a squishy sounding word that’s almost undefinable. What is it? Can you point to it? Can you highlight it in yellow so I can see it? Can you tattoo it on my arm?

I would if I could. But sadly, pace is invisible. In fact, write it out in so many words: I just knew that if I didn’t get that promotion, I’d feel like a failure forever—and you’ve killed it. It’s an airy sprite, damnit, totally un-pin-downable.

Pace is the wind at your back as a reader. It’s the ghostly tug forward. It’s the thing that makes you turn the page. And it exists in the most unlikely places, especially when it comes to non-fiction. This Is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch truly is, if you’re the right reader, a page-turner—because at every stopping point, it essentially says to you, ah, now you think you understand me. And therefore you think you understand yourself. But wait there’s more.

It’s the ginzu knife commercial of non-fiction, in a good way. Structurally, it unpacks the problem facing the writer on a deeper level in every chapter, and suddenly there you are with a book you can’t put down.

My latest fiction can’t-stop-won’t-stop was Carrie Soto Is Back, Taylor Jenkins Reid’s latest. That book had a wildly intense narrative thrust that was so brilliant (I actually forgot to talk about this in the recording)—the whole question, the whole time, is always will she win this match/this tournament/this Slam—and as a reader you care about that—but ONLY because you care about where she is emotionally. It’s a tour de force, TJR at her peak, a masterpiece of intertwining plot action with emotion.

Yeah, I can’t do that yet, and maybe neither can you. But we can look for it, and try to figure out what makes it work and learn from it. So that’s your bonus assignment this week, as I say in the audio: look at the books on your bed table that are just kind of lingering there, versus the ones you finished days (or hours) after you started them and ask yourself—why? What make this work for me, and what’s there that I can use in my own work?

PS: If you’ve done all the exercises up to now, NICE JOB getting this far, kids. I can’t tell you how much this is really going to help as you write or revise. Color me envious, because it’s always hard for me to do this work. But I, too, am learning!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus BP6: TOCs, Chapter Headings, POV---It's all Structure. Aug 08, 2022

Structure, people. It’s everything. Or it’s a very simple thing. Like I said in the shownotes, for fiction, chronological 3rd or 1st person, present or past tense, following the protagonist through the story is the white-button-down and jeans of structure. Always appropriate, almost invisible.

For non-fiction, it’s harder—there is no fall-back basic, but a good trick is to pretend your book is either a chronological story or a how-to and start from there, then see what feels right and what feels wrong about it. Overlaying a very practical structure on a philosophical topic can make it more accessible to the reader—and easier to write.

I threw in a bunch of book references to this one. Our stand-by, The Art of the Book Proposal from Eric Maisel. The Christie Affair, The Jane Austen Society and Bloomsbury Girls, Adult Assembly Required, The Arc, The Mutual Friend.

Hope the blueprint is going well for you!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus BPB 5: The Change is the Theme Aug 01, 2022

Kids, this is a Blueprint for a Book Summer Challenge Bonus Episode. I’ll be dropping these weekly throughout the Summer 2022 Challenge. Some of you are already signed up and challenging away, turning in weekly assignments and pushing yourself to get this done.

Some of you are #AmWriting supporters who’ve put your $$$ where your

I touched on this in the bonus for Blueprint episode 1—but now I get to really dig in. The change is the theme, y’all. If your readers are going to learn how to be happier parents—the theme is around happiness and why it matters (and why we resist it, in the case of my own non-fiction). If your protagonist is going to learn to value what’s important to her over what she’s been told she should value, that’s your theme (oh, and also why it matters and why it’s so hard to trust ourselves to figure out what makes us happy). Or if she’s going to learn that you cannot be happy while you’re hiding yourself from the people she loves… why, your theme might just be around being true to yourself and understanding what will make you happy! (Hello, yes, I have a single theme that I return to again and again, as do many of us.)

But you may not be able to spot that theme from the beginning. So trust me—to find your theme, keep coming back to that change, in yourself, the protagonist(s) or the reader until you can put that baby on a bumper sticker. That’s when you know you’ve got it.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus BPB 4: Jacket Copy Cheats and Hacks Jul 25, 2022

Some of you are #AmWriting supporters who’ve put your $$$ where your

This is a longish episode in the hopes of offering you some shortcuts to writing a short thing—that often feels super-hard.

Here’s my shortcut to a starter sentence for your logline for fiction/biography or narrative nonfiction (read on for memoir and prescriptive non-fic):

On the verge of/About to/Just after/Just before CURRENT LIFE, a NOUN who HAS A PROBLEM discovers/is drawn into/some other action THE INCITING INCIDENT/PLOT PROBLEM and STAKES, but when TWIST, s/h/the/y must SOLVE INTERNAL PROBLEM to SOLVE PLOT PROBLEM.

Here’s my current one. I can transform this into jacket copy by adding some proper names and sparking it up—but starting with a terrible run-on sentence like this can be really helpful.

On the verge of losing a chance to start over in the small town she loves, a woman who believes her flaky mother destroyed her life by depending on fortune-telling and magic discovers that cookies with the images of the family heirloom Tarot cards she stole long ago have the ability to change her life and the lives of others, but when her attempts to control the cards play right into the hand of a witch more powerful than she’d ever imagined, she must recognize that true power lies in letting those you love make their own choices in order to save her daughter from sacrificing herself to a destiny that might not be her own.

For memoir, it’s similar but a little different.

On the verge of/About to/Just after/Just before/description of where author started, AUTHOR AND WHY WE CARE ABOUT/RELATE TO THEM (usually includes dramatic core narrative or how core narrative is universal) does/endures/experiences THE PLOT and learns THE CHANGE in order to survive/grow up/find something/achieve something.

Finally, for instructive/prescriptive nonfic:

AUTHOR/EXPERTISE offers a guide to/provides lessons in/ demonstrates/shares THE OSTENSIBLE THING BEING TAUGHT and gives readers/shows THE REAL TAKEAWAY FOR LIFE.

These are really logline cheats (and the Publisher’s Marketplace stuff I promised is WAY below)—but you can do the same thing by grabbing your comp books, looking at the jacket copy and then taking out all the specifics and replacing them with generalities, then use the various transitional words—on the verge of, but when, forced to, faced with or studied, learned, translated, to help readers, readers will learn—to make your own awful Frankenstein monster version.

What follows (and will be too long for the show notes, you’re going to have to click through to the website to see it) is the Publishers’ Marketplace from 7/20/22. DO NOT LET IT WORRY YOU. Sure there are lots of CEOS and second-time authors here (and a neurosurgeon, jeez) but there are also debut authors and plenty of people you’ve never heard of. I love these, they’re very informative about what the INDUSTRY is looking for. It’s all there, fiction to memoir to non-fic to children’s and YA down at the bottom. Heck—bonus in the form of some agents and editors you might be interested in. The links probably won’t work, though, as I think they require a PM subscription.

Fiction

Debut

Emily Jane's ON EARTH AS IT IS ON TELEVISION, in which the world is rocked by the arrival of alien spacecrafts that appear over major cities only to disappear as suddenly as they arrived, leaving humanity to wonder why they came and what happens next, to Adam Wilson at Hyperion Avenue, for publication in summer 2023, by Holly Root at Root Literary (world). Rights:linda@defliterary.com

General/Other

Author of THE WIFE UPSTAIRS Rachel Hawkins's THE VILLA, a dual timeline Gothic suspense following two women on a trip to Italy, where they uncover the deadly legacy of their rental villa, tracing back to one unforgettable summer in the 1970s whose events reverberate into the present day, to Sarah Cantin at St. Martin's, for publication in January 2023, by Holly Root at Root Literary (world English). Foreign: Heather Baror at Baror International Film: Jon Cassir and Berni Barta at CAA

Noa Yedlin's STOCKHOLM, the basis for a Israeli television series optioned by Amazon Studios, a dark comedy in which four lifelong friends in their 70s conspire to hide the corpse of their friend, a leading contender for the Nobel Prize in economics who has been found dead just one week before the prize's announcement, a plot that begins as a tribute to the legacy of their late friend but becomes a revealing journey that will test their bonds, their sanity, and the lengths they will go for redemption, to Daniella Wexler at Harper Via, by Elizabeth Winick Rubinstein at McIntosh & Otis, on behalf of Steph Thwaites at Curtis Brown (world English).

Women's/Romance

Michele Dunaway's WHAT HAPPENS IN THE AIR, in which a photojournalist returns home only to find her father involved in a feud that could endanger the town's hot air balloon festival, and she and her widowed high school sweetheart are the only ones who can fix it, to Megan Broderick at Harlequin Special Edition, in a nice deal, in a three-book deal, for publication in January 2023, by Jennifer Herrington at Harvey Klinger (world).

Sidney Halston's VALENTINE'S HATE, an enemies-to-lovers holiday romance, featuring an anti-Valentine's Day heroine who, while preparing for her best friend's Valentine's Day wedding, runs into the man who ruined her love for the holiday many years ago, through a series of unfortunate events they end up sharing a hotel suite, to Tessa Woodward at Avon, for publication in winter 2023, by Sarah Younger at Nancy Yost Literary Agency (world).

Willow Quinn's THE RIDE, a debut rom-com pitched as FORCES OF NATURE meets ALONG CAME POLLY, where a straight-laced architect who analyzes and calculates his every decision has no choice but to journey down the path less traveled, in more ways than one, when he hitches a ride with an eccentric free spirit, to Gilded Press, in a nice deal, for publication in the summer of 2023 (world).publisher@gildedpressbooks.com Rights contact(s):rights@gildedpressbooks.com

Digital

Fiction: Mystery/Crime

Author of IMAGINING ELSEWHERE Sara Hosey's SUMMER PEOPLE, in which a neurodiverse seventeen-year-old girl hoping to enjoy her last summer before college in her small, sleepy town instead discovers the body of a friend in the polluted town lake, forcing her to investigate and find justice for his death, even if it means implicating her own family and community, to Sue Arroyo at CamCat Books, with Helga Schier editing, in a nice deal, for publication in summer 2023 (world).

Non-fiction

Business/Investing/Finance

Former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors and Harvard economics professor Jason Furman's INFLATION, about how to understand inflation and think about it, how worried we should be, and when it's likely to abate, to Joe Jackson at Princeton University Press, by Rafe Sagalyn at ICM (world English).

General/Other

National Magazine Award-winning writer Richard Conniff's ENDING EPIDEMICS: A HISTORY OF ESCAPE FROM CONTAGION, the story of how we came to understand the infectious diseases that once killed us and how we might escape such diseases in the future, to Robert Prior at MIT Press, for publication in spring 2023, by John Thornton at The Spieler Agency (world). Rights:mitpbooks-rights@mit.edu

Associate professor of surgery and a practicing transplantation surgeon at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health Joshua Mezrich's XENO, a transplant surgeon's view of the history and future of xenotransplantation, to Robert Prior at MIT Press, for publication in fall 2024, by Eric Lupfer at Fletcher & Company (world English). Rights:mitpbooks-rights@mit.edu

Stu Horvath's MONSTERS, ALIENS, AND HOLES IN THE GROUND: A GUIDE TO TABLETOP ROLEPLAYING GAMES FROM D&D TO MOTHERSHIP, a decade-by-decade examination of the evolution of tabletop roleplaying games, to Noah Springer at MIT Press, for publication in fall 2023 (world). Rights:mitpbooks-rights@mit.edu

NYT contributor and cultural critic Lindsay Zoladz's FEAR OF A FEMALE GENIUS, a feminist history of the idea of artistic genius and a critical journey through the lives and work of many female artists, writers, and musicians who transformed male-dominated fields, including Joni Mitchell, Yoko Ono, Elaine May, Hilma af Klint, and Mary Shelley, as well as several previously unsung female artists, all of whom inspire and argument for a new and more expansive understanding of genius itself, to Jackson Howard at MCD/FSG, in a pre-empt, by Ethan Bassoff at Ross Yoon Agency (world). Rights:devon.mazzone@fsgbooks.com

History/Politics/Current Affairs

Vice provost at the University of Montana and author of PASSIONATE UPRISINGS and HYPHEN Dr. Pardis Mahdavi PhD's BOOK OF QUEENS: THE TRUE STORY OF THE MIDDLE EASTERN HORSEWOMEN WHO FOUGHT THE WAR ON TERROR, the story of Middle Eastern freedom fighters—horsewomen who safeguarded an ancient breed of Caspian horse—and their efforts to help themselves and defend their homelands from the Taliban through combat, ally training, and counterintelligence, to Mollie Weisenfeld at Hachette Books, by Jessica Regel at Helm Literary (NA).

Illustrated/Art

The late Joseph Mitchell's THE BOTTOM OF THE HARBOR, illustrated by Joana Avillez, to Modern Library, with Kaeli Subberwal editing, by David Kuhn and Kate Mack at Aevitas Creative Management for the illustrator.

Memoir

Author of DEMON CAMP and a NYT Magazine and Harper's contributor, as well as a recipient of the National Magazine Award for Feature Writing Jen Percy's GIRLS PLAY DEAD, blending personal narrative and cultural reportage to examine coming-of-age, trauma, and the ways women survive and heal from violence, told through the unforgiving wildness of the writer's upbringing in rural Oregon and the prismatic stories of battered women, cultists, psychic disconnection, and utopian visions, to Thomas Gebremedhin at Doubleday, in a six-figure deal, in a pre-empt, by Jin Auh at The Wylie Agency (NA).

Clark Fredericks's untitled memoir, about how the abuse the author suffered as a young boy fundamentally altered his life: from his inability to maintain relationships to bouts with addiction and gambling, his closely held secret culminated in slitting his abuser's throat with his childhood hunting knife some three decades later; covering his subsequent incarceration and rehabilitation, and his current work fighting for meaningful legislative reform, while offering hope and strength to those suffering in silence, to Amar Deol at Atria, by David Halpern at The Robbins Office (world English).

Narrative

Columnist for the Nation Magazine and the author of A PEOPLE'S HISTORY OF SPORTS IN THE UNITED STATES Dave Zirin's THE PEOPLE'S HISTORIAN, a biography of Howard Zinn that examines his life and work as a progressive icon and thought leader through the story of the times that shaped him -- and America, based on access to Zinn's papers and the full cooperation of his family, to Brent Howard at Dutton, in an exclusive submission, by Susan Canavan at Waxman Literary Agency (NA).

Pop Culture

Frankie Cosmos drummer and journalist Luke Pyenson and Real Estate multi-instrumentalist Alex Bleeker, eds.'s THEY'RE FEEDING YOU TONIGHT: ON TOUR AND AROUND THE TABLE WITH INDIE MUSICIANS, an anthology of essays, photos, and ephemera that lets readers pull up a chair to the table with a diverse lineup of inspiring indie musicians around the world, sharing meals and travel experiences, peeking intimately behind the curtain at the commonly misunderstood way of life on tour, including original, unpublished contributions from over 25 indie favorites including Fleet Foxes, Pavement, Animal Collective, Weyes Blood, and many more, to Olivia Roberts at Chronicle, at auction, by Soumeya Bendimerad Roberts at HG Literary (NA).

Religion/Spirituality

Bloggers, lifestyle influencers, and cohosts of The Good Life podcast Stevie Hendrix and Sazan Hendrix's THE GOOD LIFE, a guide for making each part of each day an installment and investment in a beautiful life; showing readers that the acceptance and belonging they desperately want is something that happens in the heart—one good day at a time, to Brigitta Nortker at Nelson Books, for publication in October 2023, by Bryan Norman at Alive Literary Agency.

Podcaster and television personality Jinger Vuolo's BECOMING FREE INDEED, sharing how the author began to question the harmful teachings of her childhood to find and experience true freedom in Christ, to Stephanie Newton at W Publishing, for publication in February 2023, by Bryan Norman at Alive Literary Agency.

Bloggers, podcasters, cofounders of Marriage After God, and the parents of five children Aaron Smith and Jennifer Smith's 365 PRAYERS FOR MY MARRIAGE, guiding couples in praying for their marriage to reflect Christ into a hurting world, to Carolyn McCready at Zondervan, with Carly Kellerman editing, for publication in October 2023, by Bryan Norman at Alive Literary Agency.

Children's

Middle Grade Fiction

Author of the Kiki Kallira duology and the forthcoming THE VERY SECRET SOCIETY OF IRREGULAR WITCHES Sangu Mandanna's VANYA AND THE WILD HUNT and VANYA AND THE SHIFTING SPIRE, pitched as AMARI AND THE NIGHT BROTHERS meets Nevermoor with a touch of How to Train Your Dragon, following a neurodivergent British Indian girl who is swept away to a magical school where she trains to become a monster hunter and learns to fully embrace her different and wonderful brain, to Jennifer Besser at Roaring Brook Press, with Luisa Beguiristain editing, a joint acquisition with Sam Smith at Macmillan UK Children's, in a significant deal, at auction, in a two-book deal, for publication in spring 2024, by Penny Moore at Aevitas Creative Management (world). Film:awarren@aevitascreative.com

Caldecott Award-winning WE ARE WATER PROTECTORS author Carole Lindstrom's two untitled books, to Mary Kate Castellani at Bloomsbury Children's, in a two-book deal, for publication in 2024 and 2025, by Natascha Morris and Sarah Fisk at The Tobias Literary Agency (world).

Picture Book Fiction

Carrie Kruck's IGGY WHO BREATHED FIRE, about an ordinary girl with a quite extraordinary condition, in a magical twist on girl power and a reminder to us all to treasure the fire within, illustrated by Erika Meza, to Sylvie Frank at Disney-Hyperion, at auction, in a two-book deal, for publication in summer 2024, by Ammi-Joan Paquette at Erin Murphy Literary Agency for the author, and by Claire Cartey at Holroyde Cartey for the illustrator (world).

D.J. Steinberg's ST. PATRICK'S DAY, HERE I COME and YOGA, HERE I COME, in the Here I Come series, illustrated by Emanuel Wiemans, to Penguin Workshop, in a two-book deal, for publication in February 2023 and November 2023, by Kelly Sonnack at Andrea Brown Literary Agency for the illustrator.

Picture Book Non-fiction

Author and illustrator of NEITHER Airlie Anderson's ONLY, a story that explores the spectrum between introversion and extroversion, about a bird that doesn't like the same loud and boisterous activities as its friends, preferring alone time in its quiet nest, but also doesn't want to feel lonely, to Deirdre Jones at Little, Brown Children's, for publication in winter 2024 (world).

Co-founder of Multicultural Children's Book Day Mia Wenjen's FOOD FOR THE FUTURE: SUSTAINABLE FARMS AROUND THE WORLD, an exploration of 12 amazing ways we can grow food while caring for our planet, illustrated by Robert Sae-Heng, to Lisa Rosinsky at Barefoot Books, for publication in spring 2023, by Lary Rosenblatt at 22MediaWorks for the author, and by Jess Lomax at Inkling Illustration Agency for the illustrator (world). Rights:helen.kissler@barefootbooks.com

Don Tate's A POEM FOR DUDLEY RANDALL, a biography-in-verse about Dudley Randall, a poet, poetry publisher, and leader in the Black Arts Movement of the 1960s, illustrated by Laura Freeman, to Howard Reeves at Abrams Children's, for publication in spring 2025, by Caryn Wiseman at Andrea Brown Literary Agency for the author, and by Janet DeCarlo at Storybook Arts for the illustrator (world).

Young Adult Fiction

Joelle Wellington's THEIR VICIOUS GAMES, pitched as Ready or Not meets The Bachelor, following an 18-year-old Black girl offered entrance to the 1%'s twisted games after her acceptance to her top choice college is rescinded, but once she accepts the challenge, she finds that she has two choices—win the game or die, to Alexa Pastor at Simon & Schuster Children's, in a major deal, at auction, in a two-book deal, for publication in summer 2023, by Quressa Robinson at Folio Jr. (NA). Rights also to Penguin Random House UK. Rights:jenny@meyerlit.com

NYT bestselling author Morgan Matson's PROMCHANTED, a rom-com about two teens who, en route to the prom, find themselves in the Disney film SLEEPING BEAUTY and must team up to keep the film's events on track, to Brittany Rubiano at Disney-Hyperion, in a two-book deal, for publication in spring 2024, by Emily van Beek at Folio Literary Management (world).

Author of SETON GIRLS Charlene Thomas's PEEKABOO, in which a tiny town is firmly divided—with Have-Lots and Have-Nots—and a girl knows all too well which side is hers; but when she meets a stranger at the annual Halloween carnival, she gains the power to get everything she wants—until her addiction to perfection uncovers the town's biggest secret of all, to Andrew Karre at Dutton Children's, for publication in fall 2024, by Ann Rose at Prospect Agency.

Graphic Novel

Lambda Award-winning author of SKYE FALLING Mia McKenzie's DORIS STEELE, a comic novel about a pious, small-town teenager who travels to Atlanta in 1960 to get an abortion and finds herself smack in the middle of the civil rights movement and the secret lives of queer Black people, ultimately discovering the transformative power of leaving your bubble, even for just one chaotic weekend, to Caitlin McKenna at Random House, by Alexa Stark at Writers House (world). Rights:decronin@prh.com

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus BPB 3: Write What You Want--to Be Read. Jul 18, 2022

THE MARKET.

First of all, I am having the best day here. I’m through 9 of 10 phone call/Zoom interviews about In Her Boots, and 8 of those interviewers appeared to have read it or at least in one case started it (a record) and a bunch of them seemed to have genuinely LOVED it and I’m delighted. Why tell you this here? In part because something readers have come back to several times is a piece of the book that I changed, at my editor’s suggestion—because she thought readers would want something different from what my original draft gave them.

In other words, the market. I made the change and I’m so glad I did, not just because readers like it, but also because it was true to the story I wanted to tell to the people I wanted to read it. And that’s what thinking about reaching your market can be. It’s not “selling out” or “writing to market”. It’s—how can I tell my story or share my thoughts or message in a way that reaches the people I want to reach?

I love this assignment. I hope you do too.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus BPB 2: What's this about--and how knowing the answer makes everything else easier. Jul 11, 2022

Some of you are #AmWriting supporters who’ve put your $$$ where your authoraccelerator.com/amwritingblueprintchallenge before July 15, 2022.

This bonus episode is all about… the book’s why. What’s your protagonist or your reader working toward? What do you want that character (fiction or non-fiction) to know at the end of this that they don’t know at the beginning, and what is the reader thinking hard about too? This is the heart of your book, and every book, whether it’s The Chicken Sisters or How to Be a Happier Parent, needs a heart. Once you find it, a whole lot of other things drop into place. Sadly, however, this may be the single hardest one-sentence-to-go-on-a-post-it-note you ever write. But fear not! It’s ok to keep groping toward this for as long as it takes.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

BPB Bonus 1: What's YOUR Why? Jul 04, 2022

Some of you are #AmWriting supporters who’ve put your $$$ where your authoraccelerator.com/amwritingblueprintchallenge before July 15, 2022.

This bonus episode is all about YOUR why. Next week, we’ll talk about what I think of as the book’s why—but for this week, it’s all about you. Knowing why you want to do this hard thing will help you keep your butt in the chair and head in the game when you’d rather do something else—because you’ll know better what you’re working for and why. And it will also help you make some decisions down the road about exactly what this thing is that you’re working to hard to produce and where you want it to go in the end.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

321 What Do You Want to Achieve this Year--and are you half-way there? Jun 24, 2022

It’s the things-that-aren’t in the episode edition of your weekly #AmWriting email! First off, about 60 seconds in, I mention (this is KJ, it’s nearly always KJ) a podcast I like. But then I flake off to look up the name… and forget to ever mention it again.

It’s the Crappy Friends Podcast with Kristan Higgins and Joss Dey. And it’s FICTION GOLD. Every week, a couple of people write in with stories of awful friends and angsty dilemmas and towns that are too-small-for-the-both-of-us and there is a novel in every question and a whole lot of shadenfreudy entertainment in the answers provided by best friends Kristan and Joss. It’s a fun, I’m just here for the hang situation.

Want more? Sarina just texted me that she forgot to tell y’all her BIGGEST achievement so far this year: she writes first thing. I’m going to take credit for this one. I’m a big fan of eat-the-frog first (I exercise first thing, then write, for the same reasons) although I can’t remember what I said that finally got her to actually do it, but she just gave herself a big, justified pat-on-the-back for this one. “I have felt as though I had lots of free time this month because I didn’t spend half the day in avoidance.” That’s a gift you can give yourself too!

Overall note from the episode? There are lots of reasons to check in on your goals. To cheer. To re-assess and decide—do I even want this? If I do, what do I need to go to get there? To wonder—really? Why? Maybe I don’t need to organize that drawer. Maybe I need to throw its contents away.

To remind ourselves of what we’ve done, and what we still hope to do.

It’s all even more meaningful that we all figured out the universal truth that landed in March 2020: we don’t even really control the goals we think we can control. But if life gives us a chance to make a choice to do a thing… better grab it!

So… how go your goals so far this year? In honor of this episode, we’ve started our first thread discussion. If you’re on our email list, you’ll get an invite shortly after the episode airs. Otherwise, head to amwritingpodcast.com and look for the thread to tell us—is 2022 half-over, or half-to-go? What will you do with the rest of your year, and what have you done so far?

Links from the Pod

Gen the bookworm on Instagram

#AmReading

Sarina: The Mutual Friend by Carter Bays—Sarina shouts out the omniscient narrator, and KJ notes the head-hopping omniscience in The Arc.

Jess: Mr. Nobody, Catherine Steadman

KJ: The Murder of Mr. Wickham, Claudia Gray

BETTER SIGN UP SOON!! It’s the #AmWriting Blueprint for a Book Challenge! 10 episodes, 10 guests, 10 weeks to you being ready to write your best novel, memoir or non-fiction book this fall. There will be homework. There will be deadlines. Complete all 10 weeks, and you could win a critique of that Blueprint from KJ or Jennie Nash—but you’ll already be a winner, because you’ll have a plan that will put you way ahead of the game. Play for free—or reserve an Author Accelerator critique for your finished product to hold your feet to the fire and make sure you do the work and get bonus episodes and write-alongs. Want details? Ready to sign up? CLICK HERE. And quickly. Sign-ups end July 8.

PS: Along those lines, Author Accelerator has opened registration for the 2022 Manuscript Incubator, an intensive, 7 month coaching opportunity that offers one-one-one support and guidance for novelists and memoirists planning to have a submission-ready project by early 2023—and includes the opportunity to have that project reviewed by a group of agents and editors when it’s ready. For more information, head to authoraccelerator.com/manuscript-incubator.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Blueprint for a Book Extravaganza: How to plan a book in 10 episodes Jun 20, 2022

We made something amazing. It’s called the Blueprint for a Book Summer Challenge, and it’s coming your way starting July 1, 2022 in the form of 10 episodes that could guide you through the steps for a creating a blueprint for the book you’ll write this fall—or for revising the one that’s just not quite coming together.

The episodes will all drop into your pod-player just as they always do—and they’re great listens whether you’re ready to work through the Blueprint or just starting to think about what your book might look like when you are. But if you’re thinking about going ALL-IN, you’ll want to SIGN UP HERE for all the pokes and prods you’ll need to really get this done, and to be entered to win a free critique from Jennie or KJ of the Blueprint you write.

Come on, play with us. Come September, you’ll be glad you did.

PS: Already ready? No need for a Blueprint because you’ve already built the house? Author Accelerator has opened registration for the 2022 Manuscript Incubator, an intensive, 7 month coaching opportunity that offers one-one-one support and guidance for novelists and memoirists planning to have a submission-ready project by early 2023—and includes the opportunity to have that project reviewed by a group of agents and editors when it’s ready. For more information, head to authoraccelerator.com/manuscript-incubator.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

320: How to Create Your Own Market Jun 17, 2022

This episode is for you if: you’re starting, re-starting or sparking a freelance career with a focus on something you’re passionate about OR you’ve ever thought the heck with this, I’m striking out on my own.

Sometimes the best way to find a publication that reaches the readers you want is to start one. That might mean starting a Substack or a podcast—hello out there, Burnt Toast, one of the best examples I can think of of doing exactly that.* Or it might mean doing something both a little bigger and a little more old school.

When Valerie Kathawala decided to write about her passion, wine, she had to start from scratch—as in, she took a job at a local wine store. She stocked shelves, studied labels and wrote the in-house wine magazine, which led to bylines at other small publications and built up from there. For her it was wine, but I was so excited to talk about how to build up a freelance career now, as opposed to 20 years ago. (I think y’all know us well enough by now to know this is not an episode about wine.)

But Valerie wanted more. So she and a partner started TRINK, “the first and only English-language digital publication dedicated to the "German-speaking wines" of Austria, Germany, Italy, and Switzerland.”

They commission articles, pay writers and publish (digitally) in “volumes”. Are they making bank? Sadly, not yet, but they are self-supporting and growing fast. Volume 12 is coming soon. Whole story is in the podcast, and sorry-not-sorry if it inspires you to start something of your own.

#AmReading

Valerie: After Nature, W. G. Sebald

KJ: Bittersweet, Susan Cain

TrinkMag

Follow Valerie on Instagram @Valkatnyc

HEY LOOKY LOOKY: Starting July 1, it’s the #AmWriting Blueprint for a Book Challenge! I am so excited about this. 10 episodes, 10 guests, 10 weeks to you being ready to write your best novel, memoir or non-fiction book this fall. There will be homework. There will be deadlines. Complete all 10 weeks, and you could win a critique of that Blueprint from KJ or Jennie Nash—but you’ll already be a winner, because you’ll have a plan that will put you way ahead of the game. Play for free—or reserve an Author Accelerator critique for your finished product to hold your feet to the fire and make sure you do the work and get bonus episodes and write-alongs. Want details? Ready to sign up? CLICK HERE.

*Virginia Sole Smith on bodies, fatphobia and diet culture, a topic that’s very hard to cover in traditional journalism because the pubs that reach the people who are interested sell advertising to the culprits—take a look, bet you learn something.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Write Now with Sarah Rhea Werner Jun 14, 2022

As a bonus this week, we’re sharing “The Bulletproof Writer” from the Write Now Podcast—because this past few weeks have NOT been a perfect time for me to write, with guests and celebrations and also setbacks and discouragements. Not only is that often true, it’s pretty much always true. The challenge is to write anyway, and Sarah offers help and compassion for us as we sort out how to get our butts in the chair when everything is trying to yank it out from under us. We hope you like it!

Find more about Write Now HERE.

Or subscribe on Apple Podcasts HERE.

AND…we’ve got a challenge for you this summer! Starting July 1, we’ll be digging in for the Blueprint for a Book Challenge—10 episodes, 10 weeks, 10 guests, 10 steps to you creating a blueprint that will help you take book idea from amorphous blob to solid plan. Whether you’re at the inspiration stage, have a few chapters written or are sitting on a big chunk of draft that just isn’t coming together, this series will help you get things in shape and make taking your idea to the next stage easier. Why am I telling you about it now? So you can sign up. Get ready. Because if you play along in real time and meet the deadlines, you could win a critique of that blueprint from me or from Jennie Nash, and if you sign up early, you get a deal on a critique from an Author Accelerator book coach at the end of the process, plus bonus episodes and write-alongs. For details and to get all signed up, go to authoraccelerator.com/amwritingblueprintchallenge.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

But Everything is so SHINY: Episode 319, Coaching journalist Alison Myers on restarting a writing career. Jun 10, 2022

It’s hard to start. It’s hard to finish. It’s hard to choose. Sometimes writers (especially those who have had to step back from a professional journalism job for family or other reasons) have all the ideas and in some sense, all the time to execute them, and the result isn’t wild productivity, but a frustrating spinning of wheels—because if everything is possible, how do you choose? What if you choose wrong? Everything looks like a shiny opportunity, but when you write the first few sentences, it turns out the shiny thing was just a gum wrapper.

It blows, and it can go on for a long time (and even forever)—because when you’re used to externally imposed topic and deadlines, it’s hard to shift into creating your own—and putting in the time you need to finish them and turn them into something real. KJ talks to former CBC national reporter and occasional freelancer Alison Myers about harnessing your strengths and the way you work best to get things done instead of starting and stopping a million things. Here’s what Alison said in her email:

Hello from Canada, the country that used to be known for being polite and apologetic but more recently seems to be inspiring people around the world to be horn-honking jerks.

You have no idea how relieved I was to hear you both talk about writing for an audience on a recent show. I used to be a big deal radio reporter before I had kids so I’m used to writing and performing for the sake of other people (i.e., feedback). I always stacked it up to what must be the raging dissatisfaction of my massive ego, that evil thing I'm supposed to suppress. As cliché as this sounds, you guys made me feel like less of an a*****e for wanting people to read my words.

I have ideas coming out the wazoo and can write well when I commit to it. My problem is it has no purpose (read: audience). I have 52 untitled documents open with half-written essays that I haven't finished because I don’t know where this is all going. They’re like a million bowls of soggy cereal waiting for someone to pour them down the train. There’s no structure, no roadmap and, most importantly, no one on the other end waiting to receive.

Alison agreed to come on and talk through her version of Shiny Thing Syndrome (which manifests differently than the one Jennie Nash and I talk about here). There’s a LOT of useful stuff here about getting your writing habit started or restarted and how to get to where we all want to be—you know, butt in chair, head in game.

Links from the pod

Becca Syme episode, her website, Clifton Strengths

Gretchen Rubin episode

Laura Vanderkam

Jess and I on the “not today, muse” episode

Hugo Lindgrin, Be Wrong as Fast as You Can

KJ on being on time

George Saunders’ Substack

Writers and Lovers, Lily King

The Menopause Manifesto, Dr Jen Gunter (read about her take on Goop here.)

@allmyinklings on IG

COMING JULY 1: It’s the #AmWriting Blueprint for a Book Challenge! 10 episodes, 10 guests, 10 weeks to you being ready to write your best novel, memoir or non-fiction book this fall. There will be homework. There will be deadlines. Complete all 10 weeks, and you could win a critique of that Blueprint from KJ or Jennie Nash—but you’ll already be a winner, because you’ll have a plan that will put you way ahead of the game. Play for free—or reserve an Author Accelerator critique for your finished product to hold your feet to the fire and make sure you do the work and get bonus episodes and write-alongs. Want details? Ready to sign up? CLICK HERE.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Yes You Can Write In More Than One Genre. Here's how: Episode 318 flips the shelves. Jun 03, 2022

Oh yeah we’ve been there. Heck, we are there. Pigeonholed. Safe in our little bunker. Maybe just a tiny bit typecast. Jumping genres can be exciting, scary, nerve-wracking. But it can be done.

Everybody gravitates to one genre or another when we get started. Maybe nonfiction feels a little less threatening—or maybe it feels too hard and fiction is your starting place of choice. Maybe you’ve been writing rom-coms but are sure you have a thriller in you, or the other way around. Are you giving up everything you’ve learned, or everything you’ve gained if you’re published?

That would be no and maybe kinda but not necessarily in a bad way, in that order.

This week we’re tackling the question of genre-hopping, in part because Sarina’s going thriller, KJ’s tackling magical realism and Jess is drafting fiction, and in part because listener and thriller writer Aggie Thompson sent us this plaintive missive:

I am a thriller writer, published by Forge/Macmillan, and my debut -- I DON’T FORGIVE YOU -- came out summer 2021. My second book is coming out this July – ALL THE DIRTY SECRETS – and I am currently waiting to hear back from my editor regarding my proposal for my the third book. Which means I refresh my email more than a couple of times a day. And I am at my wits end as to what to do with myself.

I don’t want to work on book no. 3 in case the answer is no, or even a yes – but needs lots of work. So start something new, right? But what I am yearning to write is waaaaayy off genre. Something light and funny where no one gets killed. Maybe it’s coming out of the pandemic, or just some personal stuff I have dealt with over the past two years, but I long to write some comfort fiction.

My question – when is it “safe” to veer out of your genre? And if it is never safe, when is it wise? I’m not getting any younger! I feel like I have so many other books in me. But it took so long to get to where I am, I don’t want to blow the momentum I have started building up as a D.C.-domestic thriller writer either.

Anyway, any wisdom or insight would be greatly appreciated.

We talked why, when and how to play the genre-hopping game. We referenced our Seressia Glass episode (because it’s always ok to consider the market). And then we admitted that sometimes, it’s better to have a little piece on the side but mostly stick with your main squeeze. (This outdated reference, with its totally terrible relationship advice, brought to you by the voices in KJ’s head, who are apparently speaking from a bad noir film from the forties.)

In reading, Sarina also veered wildly off genre with Tell Me Everything (which makes total sense when you think about it).

KJ caused herself to question all her writing skills with the brilliantly interior literary page-turner Kaleidoscope.

And Jess soothed her soul with the new Christina Lauren: Something Wilder.

Sarina’s butt is way out of the chair this week as she travels with her oldest kid. KJ’s is locked in place wrestling with revision—and Jess is gardening and thinking, gardening and thinking. There are lots of ways to keep your head in the game!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How Writing Middle Grade is Different, and How It's Not: Episode 317 with Jamie Sumner May 27, 2022

I don’t think we’ve ever talked about middle grade on #AmWriting, which was why I was so delighted to talk to Jamie Sumner, author of Roll With It, One Kid’s Trash, Tune It Out and the forthcoming, literally any day now The Summer of June, which you should order for your kid’s beach bag right now. (And if you happen to be in Nashville, scroll down for a link to an event next week.)

Jamie and KJ talk about the mechanics of writing and pitching middle grade fiction, touch on the horrors of your first edit letter (and what you absolutely must not do when you get it) and then dive deep into what really makes this genre and its readers special—and it’s not what you think. Hard topics with hope, depth that’s distractible, and the limits of characters with temporarily limited agency who are all about finding ways to control their own destiny—but who, by the end of the book, are probably physically in much the same place as where they began. That means the endings are necessarily open-ended—which young readers apparently love.

Links from the pod

KJ’s thing in Tiffany’s blog

Jason Reynolds

The Bridge Home, Padma Venkatraman

#AmReading

Jamie: The Christie Affair, Nina De Gramont

A Series of Unfortunate Events, Lemony Snicket

KJ: Poison for Breakfast, Lemony Snicket

jamnie-sumner.com

Twitter: jamiesumner_

IG: jamiesumner_author

If you’re listening in real time and in Nashville, join Jamie on Saturday, June 4 at Parnassus Bookstore to launch The Summer of June with readings, free plants and lots of book love. Find out more here.

Or pre-order a signed copies of The Summer of June through Parnassus Books HERE.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Living with Writer Envy. Episode 316: We wanted to call this conquering it but we can't. May 20, 2022

Some of us, which might be all of us, have spent a decent amount of time writhing in the throes of writer envy lately. Can’t IMAGINE what we’re talking about? Never opened Facebook to see news of yet another Netflix deal, or celebrated a friend’s fantastic New York Times review while just a little bit kind of secretly asking yourself where yours was? Well, bully for you. Go listen to another podcast this week.

Meanwhile, we’re owning all the envy—and if you think being successful in any way dials that green monster button down, think again. There’s always a higher bar to reach. What does help? Age, wisdom, beauty (ok I just threw that one in) and a couple of other ideas we put out there at the end of the episode. Come hang.

Links from the pod

Colleen Hoover The Bookworm Box Sulphur Springs

Ryan Holiday Bookstore

Lessons in Chemistry, Bonnie Garmus

Mary Laura Philpott Episode 312, Essays That Start Light, Then Hit Hard

Emily Henry’s Beach Read

Michael Lewis

Nora Goes Off Script, Annabel Monaghan

#AmReading

Jess: Lessons in Chemistry, Bonnie Garmus

KJ: The Bohemians, Jasmin Darznik

Sarina: Part of Your World, Abby Jimenez

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

When Your Agent Doesn't Like Your Idea as Much as You Do: Episode 315 with Kristen Green May 13, 2022

Jess here. On this week’s episode, I talk with New York Times bestselling author Kristen Green about her first book, Something Must Be Done About Prince Edward County: A Family, a Virginia Town, a Civil Rights Battle and her new book, The Devil’s Half-Acre: The Untold Story of How One Woman Liberated the South’s Most Notorious Slave Jail.

We go into the process of writing a research-intensive historical nonfiction book, particularly when that book requires the author to investigate and implicate her own family in the darker parts of the story.

We also discuss the birth of The Devil’s Half Acre, a tale that involves a lot of challenges including parting ways with one agent and finding another.

More than anything else, we discuss the need for authors to believe in themselves and their story.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Write a Cozy Mystery (the rules are changing): Episode 314 with Mia Manansala May 06, 2022

Shownotes up front—but scroll down, there’s an announcement!

Mia P. Manansala (she/her) is a writer and book coach from Chicago who loves books, baking, and bad-ass women. She uses humor (and murder) to explore aspects of the Filipino diaspora, queerness, and her millennial love for pop culture. She is the author of 2 books so far in the Tita Rosie’s Kitchen Mystery series: Arsenic and Adobo and Homicide and Halo-Halo.

I was excited to talk to Mia because I read my way through hundreds of cozies well into my early adulthood, and I thought I knew the genre pretty well—but in coming back to it recently, I could see that things have changed. Just like in romance, there’s far more of an effort to balance reality with the deeply unlikely yet also deeply satisfying elements of the genre that are the reasons we come: Protagonists we love, puzzles to solve and justice to serve and peace to restore—until the next book!

Links from the Pod

Chocolate Chip Cookie Murder, Joanne Fluke

#AmReading

Mia: Like a Sister, Kellye Garrett

Secret Identity, Alex Segura

The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay, Michael Chabon

Under Lock & Skeleton Key, Gigi Pandian

Dial a for Aunties, Jesse Q. Sutanto

Four Aunties and a Wedding, Jesse Q. Sutanto

KJ: The Arc, Tory Henwood Hoen

Find Mia at: Facebook, Twitter, IG = @MPMtheWriter or www.miapmanansala.com

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

One Man's Quest to Find the Next Big Book Idea: Episode 313 with A.J. Jacobs Apr 29, 2022

Jess here. A.J. Jacobs has long been my inspiration for both writing and writerly mentorship, so I was thrilled when his forthcoming book, The Puzzler: One Man’s Quest to Solve the Most Baffling Puzzles Ever, from Crosswords to Jigsaws to the Meaning of Life landed on my doorstep. I adore A.J.’s work and this book might be a new favorite. We talk about the book, yes, but we also discuss where the ideas come from, how to stay curious and the effect that curiosity has on the writing, and the work of crafting proposals that resemble the final book.

Links:

A.J. Jacobs: https://ajjacobs.com

Kevin Roose: https://www.kevinroose.com

The Unlikely Disciple

World Jigsaw Puzzle Championship

Great Vermont Corn Maze

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Essays that start light, then hit hard: Episode 312 with Mary Laura Philpott Apr 22, 2022

Fave return guest alert! We talked to Mary Laura Philpott in episode 71–#YouandYourBookstore, back when she was a Parnassus Books guru. And then in Episode 150: #NeverReady, when MLP (as we like to call her) launched her first book of essays, I Miss You When I Blink, into the world—and then again, for episode 163 #BookTourReality.

And now she’s back with a new book of essays: Bomb Shelter: Love, Time and other Explosives. (Read an excerpt here. And here. And then go order the book here.) The difference? Blink was, as MLP says, a book of essays that, together, became a memoir. Bomb Shelter is a memoir that took on the form of a book of essays—essays that went deeper than those shared in Bomb Shelter, that cut so much closer to the heart and were so much harder to write, and to share.

Links from the Pod:

marylauraphilpott.com

Mary Laura’s newsletter

Bomb Shelter

#AmReading

MLP: The Arc, Tory Henwood Hoen

The Mutual Friend, Carter Bays

Iona Iverson's Rules for Commuting, Clare Pooley

KJ: Lessons in Chemistry, Bonnie Garmus

Olga Dies Dreaming, Xochitl Gonzalez

Jess: Girl in Ice, Erica Ferencik

Also mentioned: The Sober Diaries, Clare Pooley

Mitchell’s Book Corner

Stories of Your Life and Others, Ted Chiang

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Where Should Your Energy Go NOW? Episode 311--everything evolves with Jess and KJ Apr 15, 2022

Where should your energy go? KJ here, and in this episode Jess and I catch up on what’s worth it and what isn’t when it comes to travel, the importance of getting over any (non-pandemic-related) hesitation around taking the time for conferences and work events and also, in our usual digressive fashion, covers, paperback launches and boots.

Links from the Pod

Sana, a rehab in Stowe Vermont

For info on the Sana Scholarship Fund

Oliver Burkeman 4 Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals

Lessons in Chemistry, Bonnie Garmus

The Harvey Foundation

KJ’s boots on Instagram

#AmReading

KJ: How to Stop Time, Matt Haig

Jess:

Explorer Booksellers, Aspen Colorado

The Bookworm, Edwards Colorado

Boulder Bookstore, Boulder Colorado

Trailblazer, Dorothy Butler Gilliam

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jodi Kantor Chases the Truth: Episode 310 is a Primer on Investigative Journalism Apr 08, 2022

Links from the Pod:

#AmWriting Facebook group

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Nonfiction Masterclass: Combining Narrative Structure, Lived Experience and Geopolitics in Episode 309 with Scott Carney and Jason Miklian. Apr 01, 2022

Like all great stories, The Vortex: A True Story of History’s Deadliest Storm, an Unspeakable War, and Liberation was born out of writerly curiosity and a deceptively simple question: Why would India build a wall around Bangladesh?

I (Jess) spoke with co-authors Scott Carney and Jason Miklian about their collaboration and the work involved in answering this question.

I’ve known Scott for a while, as I became a fan of his work about a decade ago when I read The Red Market: On the Trail of the World’s Organ Brokers, Bone Thieves, Blood Farmers, and Child Traffickers and later became one of those crazy cold plunge people after reading his books, What Doesn’t Kill Us and The Wedge. I’m new to Jason Miklian, though, and thoroughly enjoyed getting to know this venerable academic, writer, photographer, researcher, breakbeat DJ, and world record holder (for the fastest drive across North America).

In this episode, we talk about choosing narrative structure, finding your subjects, discovering the most relevant stories, and creating a comprehensible, cinematic story out of an incredibly complex topic.

The highlight of this podcast for me? Being reminded, “I don’t need to be the world expert on everything, I just need to be the world expert on the people whose stories I’m telling.”

Ka-boom. Blammo.

I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.

Hey—have you been spending small amounts on short term classes, watching videos and using up every possible opportunity for free feedback? Reworking the same pages over and over in your writing group? Are you starting to feel like you’re stuck in one stage of the process? Maybe it’s time to consider making a bigger investment in your career and working with an Author Accelerator Book Coach. No one can guarantee that you’ll write a book that will snag an agent or a excite an editor. But a coach can help you move forward, finish a book or proposal you’re proud of and approach the next stage of the process like a pro. I kmow it helped me! If that sounds like something you need, visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com to get matched with a coach who can help you.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Love Writing What You Can Sell: Episode 308 with Seressia Glass Mar 25, 2022

Urban fantasy. Paranormal romance. Historicals. Plus the occasional billionaire, and now a rom-com, complete with a cute graphic cover that tells you exactly who you’ll be rooting for and what to expect. What do all of these things have in common, besides being written by todays’ guest, Seressia Glass?

Two things. First, they’re all—as she says on her website— tales of overcoming the odds to achieve love and acceptance–universal desires for everyone no matter who or what they are.

Second? They’re all books readers want. Books, in other words, that will sell.

I heard Seressia say briefly on another podcast that she and her agent had strategized about exactly that. On the pod, we dive more deeply into the balance between writing what you love, and writing what people will read. We also talk about super-agent Jenny Bent (travel back in time to listen to her on Episode 24 of the pod), Marlon James, the brilliance of Seressia’s pinned tweet and more.

Links from the Pod:

7 Figure Fiction

The “butter” episode with Theodora Taylor

#AmReading

Seressia: Island Queen, Vanessa Riley

The Dating Playbook, Farrah Rochon

KJ: The Sweetest Remedy, Jane Igharo (also mentioned Sankofa by Chibundu Onuzo)

Jess: The Almost Legendary Morris Sisters, Julie Klam

(also mentioned The Stars in Her Eyes)

IG: @seressiaglass

https://seressiaglass.com

I just finished Author Accelerator’s book coaching course and submitted my materials—and let me tell you, I learned a ton. If you’ve been listening for a while, you know I spent five years as an editor with The New York Times—but I still had a lot to learn about helping writers through the process of taking a book from idea to manuscript, and I loved learning it with the Author Accelerator team. What they taught me has changed my approach to editing completely. I didn’t just learn how to help a writer move from one stage of the process to the next—I learned how to help them appreciate how far they’ve come and feel excited about what’s coming next, see their strengths and how they can build on them and trust me to guide them into the hard work that lies ahead. If you’d like to learn more about coaching fiction or non-fiction, you need to visit bookcoaches.com to learn more.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Be on Bookstagram Episode 307 with #bookmarkedbya Mar 18, 2022

Abby Kincer is a reader and a bookstagrammer, a fun person, an enthusiastic consumer of bookish socks and t-shirts, a user of filters, a wearer of glasses, a possessor of many tote bags and—that’s what I know about her! Because her Instagram is bookstagram through and through, and that’s why she’s here. We asked Abby everything we ever wanted to know about bookstagramming, from how she got started to how she chooses books to how she prefers to interact with authors (kinda not much!).

Abby on:

Instagram: @bookmarkedbya

Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/90454496-abby-kincer

#AmReading: (none for KJ)

Abby: The School for Good Mothers by Jessamine Chan “I loved it and I wanted to throw it out the window.”

The Final Revival of Opal & Nev by Dawnie Walton

The People We Keep by Allison Larkin

Sarina:

The Silent Patient by Alex Michaelides

The Other Woman by Sandie Jones

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Does Your Author Website Answer the Right Questions? Episode 306 with Anne Le Tissier Mar 11, 2022

Crew, Anne Le Tissier is a listener with a question: What should I have on my website—and how can I get there without breaking the bank? She’s also the author of six traditionally published inspirational titles, some out of print, a speaker and the creator of a rather genius non-blog blog idea that I may just have to steal for myself. We critique her website and offer ideas for making it more professional without learning to code or spending big bucks—because there are some absolute must-haves, more than a few must-nots, and one important question to answer. Listen—and then go poke around on your own site!

Links from the Pod

#AmReading

Anne: Word by Word: A Daily Spiritual Practice by Marilyn McEntyre

KJ: The Nineties by Chuck Klosterman

Sarina: Local Woman Missing by Mary Kubica

Twitter: @AnneLeTiss

IG @AnneLeTissier

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

But what if my old boss is pissed? Episode 305: Workplace Memoir with Cate Doty Mar 04, 2022

Y’all, it’s an uber-informative, down in the trenches episode about writing memoir when it feels like your topic is on the lighter side—but of course, no truly successful memoir ever stays on the surface. Cate Doty is the author of Mergers and Acquisitions: Or, Everything I Know About Love I Learned on the Wedding Pages. She is a writer and former editor at The New York Times, where she covered the news of food, weddings, business, New York, and more.

To write Mergers and Acquisitions, Cate had to look at what was in some ways an obvious story—I fell in love at the NYT while working on the Wedding pages!—to the real story of growing up in an iconic newsroom and learning about what makes relationships get as far as the wedding pages—and then get past that one day. She had to find ways to dig into her past, and to write about real people she still loves and respects (and a few she doesn’t). And she had to accept that writing about the NYT probably means you’re not working there again.

And then she had to answer all my questions about it! You’re going to love it.

Links from the pod:

Jenny 8. Lee’s memoir The Fortune Cookie Chronicles

The little church around the corner

#AmReading

Cate:

Kaye Gibbons: Ellen Foster, A Cure for Dreams, Charms for an Easy Life

Having and Being Had, Eula Biss

Learning in Public, Courtney E. Martin

KJ:

Arsenic and Adobo, Mia P. Manansala

Other books we mentioned:

To Tell You the Truth, Gilly MacMillan

Admissions: A Memoir of Surviving Boarding School

Alexander McCall Smith’s Isabel Dalhousie / The Sunday Philosophy Club books

Find out more about Cate: https://www.catedoty.com and follow her on Instagram: @CateDoty

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Sometimes You Can't Go with the Flow: Hacking Writing Energies in Episode 304 with Jess and KJ Feb 25, 2022

Here’s the deal: Jess and I (KJ here) have been rolling with different energies lately. She’s letting the spirit move her. Being inspired. Putting time into other creative projects and inviting that to feed her soul. I’m stepping over other projects, telling the spirit I’m not home right now and keeping the spotlight in one place.

In this episode, we talk about when you can—and can’t—go with the flow. How we handle it when other ideas beckon, but a deadline demands our attention. What we do between projects and why. And why KJ puts a meal plan on the fridge every week, while Jess asks “what do we feel like eating?”—but that does NOT mean Jess can’t make a plan and stick to it, or that KJ never follows the muse. (Although, re: dinner: I don’t CARE what you feel like eating. This is what we’re having.)

As always, if you’ve got a pressing writerly question you’d like us to answer or that you might be willing to work through on the show, email us: amwriting@substack.com.

Links from the Pod:

Special Care Instructions blog post

Jess’ video on Instagram

KJ’s dumb headphones

A Soft Murmur web app

Inventing Anna

2k to 10k: Writing Faster, Writing Better, and Writing More of What You Love by Rachel Aaron

Blueprint for a Book by Jennie Nash

Save the Cat! Writes a Novel: The Last Book on Novel Writing You'll Ever Need by Jessica Brody

Take Off Your Pants!: Outline Your Books for Faster, Better Writing by Libbie Hawker

Station Eleven by Emily St. John Mandel

Outlander Lady: Diana Gabaldon

#AmReading

Jess:

The Vortex: A True Story of History's Deadliest Storm, an Unspeakable War, and Liberation, Scott Carney and Jason Miklian

KJ: The Secret to Superhuman Strength, Alison Bechdel

Hey—have you been spending small amounts on short term classes, watching videos and using up every possible opportunity for free feedback? Reworking the same pages over and over in your writing group? Are you starting to feel like you’re stuck in one stage of the process? Maybe it’s time to consider making a bigger investment in your career and working with an Author Accelerator Book Coach. No one can guarantee that you’ll write a book that will snag an agent or a excite an editor. But a coach can help you move forward, finish a book or proposal you’re proud of and approach the next stage of the process like a pro. I know it helped me! If that sounds like something you need, visit authoraccelerator.com to get matched with a coach who can help you.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Where Do You Get Your Ideas? Episode 303 with Sarina, Jess and KJ Feb 18, 2022

Your first book, we’ve all found, is usually something you’ve been mulling for a while. You second might be the same—so the question, how do you get you ideas, seems both confusing—I don’t know—and unnecessary—I have lots. Nonfiction, essays—when we first get started we’re bursting at the seams. What to write next isn’t a problem—until it is. Or until you find yourself wanting to think about ideas differently—about what you want to write or say, but also how you’d like it to be received and by who.

In this episode, we talk ideas from scrawled capture (where and how) to evaluation and expansion. Do we wait for the time to be right for an idea, or run with it and hope for the best? Who do we turn to when we’re not certain what we have or what to do with it? And when do we decide to settle down with one for a few weeks or months or years, and why?

Links from the pod

Episode 299: How to Sell Any Book to Any Publisher with Sue Shapiro

Episode 301: Do Morning Pages Work?

KJ Charles: How to Write a Book When You Can’t Write a Book “Every book you read is a choose your own adventure that the author has already played.”

Are you serious about writing a nonfiction book this year? Author Accelerator is offering a nonfiction book incubator starting February 28th. There are only a few seats in this intensive program because you will get 1:1 coaching on every single step of the process AND you will have the chance to pitch your proposal to a pool of agents and publishers at the end -- a fabulous opportunity. Apply for the program HERE -- and get a strategic session with Jennie Nash to kickstart your work. We think Jennie and her book coaches are terrific -- tell her we sent you!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Writer De-Snobbification: Episode 302 with Katherine Center Feb 11, 2022

Here’s Katherine Center, author of soon-to-be 9 bittersweet comic novels that have been described as “the best medicine for human souls,” on her relatively late-in life discover of romance novels: “I felt like I’d discovered chocolate cake after a lifetime of eating boneless skinless chicken breasts.”

We dig deep into the process of figuring out what you love in a book and how to find it in your own work, from analyzing other books to the importance of the reading journal, and then we get into the craft of writing books that satisfy the readerly urges you share, embracing unifying tropes, finding the compelling hook and how to ground a story that seems to big to be true by creating real characters with relatable problems in familiar settings. I took some serious notes here, people. I’m going to have to listen again!

#AmReading

Katherine Center :

Something Wilder, Christina Lauren (Also mentioned The Unhoneymooners)

Book Lovers, Emily Henry

Sarina:

The Long Game, Rachel Reid (sequel to Heated Rivalry)

KJ: Boyfriend Material, Alexis Hall

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Do Morning Pages Work? Episode 301: Is this, or is it not, the Artist's Way? Feb 04, 2022

KJ here. Sarina wanted to try Morning Pages, the most famous ritual from Julia Cameron’s The Artist’s Way—a book that, tbh, has never, ever floated my boat, just as my resistance to morning pages—in my mind, a variation on journaling, which I have also never liked—has been strong.

But Sarina wanted to try it. So we did, she in a fairly systematic way and me in what I still have to concede was more than a little half-assed. And now, having recorded the podcast, and kinda-sorta-promised to try this again later, I write these show notes still unconvinced. I already do creative things. I don’t think I need to free up my creativity. Is there really anything WRONG with only wanting to do the thing if it makes a thing—something someone might read, in the case of writing, but in other arts as well? That’s how I am. I’ll knit a hat, but I’m not just gonna sit here and knit. I like to draw but I like to share what I drew. And there’s no better art than making beautiful, tasty cookies and cakes.

I get it. Perhaps that’s a very Puritan approach to creativity, but I don’t feel like I only have “permission” to do it if it’s useful. I feel like it’s only fun if it ends in something. I go back and forth on whether that’s a good thing.

Well, these are unusual shownotes. Do you like Morning Pages? Do you do them? Every day, some days, always at the same time… how? What do you think comes from it? We’d love to hear your answers in the #AmWriting Facebook Group.

Links from the Pod

The Artist’s Way, Julia Cameron

Video: Julia Cameron discusses morning pages

The prewriting concept comes from the excellent book From 2K to 10K by Rachel Aaron

Becca Symes, The Quitcast

Atomic Habits, James Clear

#AmReading

Sarina: Loud is How I Love You, Mercy Brown

KJ: Apples Never Fall, Liane Moriarty

KJ also mentioned The Nineties by Chuck Klosterman and Major Labels, A History of Popular Music in Seven Genres by Kelefa Sanneh

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

BONUS: Listen to The Book Dreams Podcast with Guest Kathryn Schulz Feb 02, 2022

Hey writers—KJ here, and we have a treat for you this week. A bonus episode, filled with all the writer-y advice and details and aspirational riffs that you’ve come to expect from us, but this time in the form of—an entirely different podcast. We’re dropping an episode of Book Dreams into your #AmWriting feed so that you can discover something new. I think you’re going to love it.

Hosts Julie and Eve are excellent interviewers—and they fill their interviews with excerpts from the author’s work and their own ideas about why it shines and how it helps the rest of us to understand our writing and ourselves. This episode, with Kathryn Schulz, author of the memoir Lost and Found, is an excellent example. If you love it—and I think you will—I hope you’ll look for it in your podcast player and subscribe, or check it out here: BookDreamsPodcast.com.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

ALWAYS WIPS Episode 300--Podcast #Goals, Translating Earnings, Talking $$ and Craft and Interview Skillz Jan 28, 2022

300 is a lot of episodes, and we have recorded them. Things we’ve learned—the most famous guests aren’t necessarily the one that have the most to teach us—UNLESS you ask the right questions.

WOTY Recap: Jess: Evaluate KJ: Play Sarina: WIP

Links from the Pod

Everyday Calendar, by Simone Giertz (there is no link on MOMA, sorry!)

It was actually an opera singer who got stuck in the closet. Here’s a This American Life Opera about it. It’s a TOTALLY WORTH IT rabbit hole down which I am sending you.

“Hustle” episode: How to Get Work as a Freelancer

Bomb Shelter by Mary Laura Philpott

Rachael Herron’s Annual Money Episode

The free NFT book dude

#whatpublishingpaidme

Reading with Babies Toddlers and Twos

ARTIFACT, 30 Seconds to Mars

Tanya Eby

#AmReading

Jess: Sarina’s latest, The Best Men

The Latinist by Mark Prins—read the print version

Superhot Wing Man on YouTube

Sarina: The Other Man by Farhad J. Dadyburjor

KJ: All the Feels by Olivia Dade

Jess recommends: The Stand-In by Lily Chu

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Sell Any Book to Any Publisher-- Episode 299: More Info Than You Ever Thought Possible with Multi-genre author and teacher extraordinaire Sue Shapiro Jan 21, 2022

How, HOW has it taken us this long to bring you the amazing Sue Shapiro? Sue teaches what is unquestionably THE class on publishing personal essays—her motto is “Instant Gratification takes too long” and her students’ success record is astounding. She’s the author , co-author or editor of 16 books in genres ranging from memoir to middle-grade and including self-help and fiction. She’s a poet, an essayist and a teacher of such generosity and enthusiasm that I could probably just stop talking right now and let her go and you’d still end this podcast going man, I learned so much! Her latest book is The Book Bible: Sell Your Manuscript—No Matter What Genre—Without Going Broke or Insane, and there is no one more qualified to write it.

The Book Bible should be taught in the first session of every writing program or MFA. It’s a how-to on getting published, but also a primer on the industry as a whole—an industry every writer should understand, ideally early in their career. We talk about learning hard lessons, the dream of “becoming a writer” as opposed to “becoming a poet/novelist/literary figure” and how many, many different ways there are to make this particular sausage.

Links from the pod:

The Byline Bible: Get Published in Five Weeks

Amy Klein, The Trying Game

Samantha Wextein, agent

Jess’s 3 part blog post: When Opportunity Knocks (part 1, part 2, part 3)

Five Men Who Broke My Heart, Susan Shapiro

KJ’s book coaches: Jennie Nash and Susanne Dunlap

Email Sue at: profsue123@gmail.com

LOOK! Sue hosts an online event at The Strand: How to Publish in Any Genre 1/22 at 6 PM.

#AmReading

Sue: Black American Refugee, Tiffanie Drayton

KJ: The Frederick Sisters Are Living the Dream, Jeannie Zusy

Jess: The Latinist, Mark Prins

Find Sue: susanshapiro.net

IG: @ProfSue123

Twitter: @SusanShapironet

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Travel for Research (even before you sell the book)--Episode 298 with Sarah Stewart Taylor Jan 14, 2022

“Just a little jaunt to Ireland to research my next book.” If that sounds like a dream to you, we asked Sarah Stewart Taylor—author of The Mountains Wild, A Distant Grave and the forthcoming The Drowning Sea, all set in Ireland and the somewhat-less-glamorous Long Island—to explain how she made that dream a reality, even before she sold the first of her books. We talk about why research travel matters, when and why Sarah chooses to use real neighborhoods or locations in her fiction, how she spends her time (hint—you have to suck it up and be a tourist) and why it’s so important to “get extra”.

#AmReading

Sarah: Matrix by Lauren Groff

Ilaria Tuti - Flowers Over the Inferno, The Sleeping Nymph

Jess: Once there Were Wolves by Charlotte McConaghy

Go Tell the Bees that I am Gone by Diana Gabaldon

Wish You Were Here by Jodi Picoult

KJ: Louise Erdrich, The Sentence

Also mentioned: narrator Davina Porter

Class with KJ! I’m teaching a 4 week long online class I call “Cry Harder: Taking the Reader on an Emotional Roller Coaster” through the Flying Books School of Reading and Writing on Thursday nights from January 20th through February 10th. Emotional journeys are at the core of every story, whether it’s Die Hard or Fried Green Tomatoes—and they can easily get lost in the excitement of creating and pulling off that external plot.

We’ll talk about finding the emotional arc in other writers’ work as well as your own; how to infuse a book with emotion after the plot is already established, when to “show” emotion and when it’s important to go right ahead and “tell”; and how to make sure the emotional arc doesn’t disappear when the plot gets hot and heavy. Students are welcome to submit a synopsis and 10 pages from a work in progress for class discussion and feedback, but it is not required. Writers of all experience levels are welcome. Details HERE, and I’d love to see you there!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Build a Platform in a Zillion (Not) Easy Steps: Episode 297, A coaching call with Alison Zak Jan 07, 2022

Alison Zak has just been “jolted from being a writer to being an author” with the interest in her non-fiction book proposals—but with that interest came questions about… The dreaded platform problem!

That was the subject line of the reader email that caught our attention, and the problem is follows: you’ve got a great non-fiction proposal—but a relatively small existing “platform”. What is a platform, you ask? Well, it could be an offline community, a reputation, an academic or business space that you’re prominent in, or your reach as a professional writer in other’s spaces (i.e. the NYT, ESPN, McSweeney’s—but it’s more probably a question of online reach. As in, followers on email, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or for a blog or podcast. Numbers are important, but intensity and engagement matter too, as do being an active part of the community you want to reach, even if it’s led by others. We talk building platform and how to explain the platform you have to publishers who might think only numbers matter.

Links from the pod

Episode 127: #AmBranding with Carol Blymire

The Creative Shift Podcast: Does Social Media Sell Books?

The Creative Shift Podcast: Leigh Stein episode 1 - Behind the Book Launch of a Novel

The Creative Shift Podcast: Leigh Stein episode 2 - Focus on What You Can Control.

Find Alison at:

alisonzak.com

Instagram: @animal_asana

Twitter: @animal_asana

Newsletters we like:

Gretchen Rubin

Mary Laura Philpott

#AmReading

Be the Gateway by Dan Blank

Newsletter Ninja by Tammi Labrecque

Your First 1000 Copies by Tim Grahl

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

[announcer yells] GOALS: Episode 296 Dec 31, 2021

Words of the Year from 2021/New words for 2022

Jess: 2021: Organize 2022: Evaluate

KJ: 2021: Flow 2022: Play

Sarina: 2021 Generous 2022: TBD

Links from the Pod:

Oh. What. Fun. by Chandler Baker

Last week y’all heard me—KJ—rave about the coaching certification I’m working towards with our sponsor Author Accelerator. I have learned so much—about my own work, and how to help others’ with theirs. I spent five years editing others’ work at the New York Times, and I’m a good editor—but no one ever taught me how to help other writers feel excited about those edits before. (At the Times we kind of went in for the “my way or the highway” approach, with a solid dose of “if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen”.) And I’ve never understood story as well as I do now. If that all makes you intrigued to set some goals around starting up a book coaching career of your own, learn more at bookcoaches.com or sign up with our affiliate code HERE.

(And if you want to see what kind of (pretty dang limited) coaching I’m offering, click HERE.)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Heck of a Year: Episode 295 is 2021 in review Dec 24, 2021

What did we notice evolving in the industry? What worked and what didn’t in our own writing lives? Here’s our take. We’d love to hear yours—check in via the #AmWriting Facebook group.

Links from the pod

Findaway Voices acquired by Spotify

Penguin Random House/Simon Schuster merger

Storytell acquired Audiobooks.com

The Other Black Girl by Zakiya Dalila Harris

Reading Apps like Radish

The Shrink Next Door

Our best lessons from 2021:

KJ: You only need one plot.

Sarina: Write the flap copy first.

Jess: My best writing comes from what I’m immersed in and I need the freedom to write about those things. (Blog post: Look at the Sky, Grown and Flown: Parenting Creative Children.)

Y’all heard me—KJ—rave about the coaching certification I’m working towards with our sponsor Author Accelerator. I have learned so much—about my own work, and how to help others’ with theirs. I spent five years editing others’ work at the New York Times, and I’m a good editor—but no one ever taught me how to help other writers feel excited about those edits before. (At the Times we kind of went in for the “my way or the highway” approach, with a solid dose of “if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen”.) And I’ve never understood story as well as I do now. If that all makes you intrigued to set some goals around starting up a book coaching career of your own, learn more at bookcoaches.com or sign up with our affiliate code HERE.

(And if you want to see what kind of (pretty dang limited) coaching I’m offering, click HERE.)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Butter Up Your Writing: Episode 294 Using Universal Fantasy to Write Better and Sell More with Theodora Taylor Dec 17, 2021

Who doesn’t want a craft book that’s fun to read and will help you plan your fiction (or memoir), write that fiction, revise that fiction and then sell that fiction? This week we talked to Theodora Taylor, author of more than 50 novels and one brilliant book about writing that made Sarina and I (KJ) go SQUEEEE and then text back and forth frantically for a couple of hours. It’s all about the “Universal Fantasies” that give our story-loving brains the things we need when we read—and how to spot those in your own writing to help you tell people what you’re all about, use them in drafting and revising and just generally make sure they’re everywhere in everything you write—literary, commercial, genre, short stories, novellas—everything.

They’re the butter.

7 Figure Fiction: How to Use Universal Fantasy to Sell Your Books to Anyone

Facebook group: 7 Figure Fiction

https://theodorataylor.com

#AmReading

Theodora: Beastars Manga by Paru Itagaki

KJ: Labyrinth Lost by Zoraida Córdova

Sarina: The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle

Hey! Know what else a great craft book is good for? Helping you give better advice to fellow writers—or be a better book coach! I just finished Author Accelerator’s Fiction Book Coaching course, and I learned a lot about my own writing—and of course about helping others with theirs. I was an editor for many years but I still doubted my ability to help with a whole book until I finished the course, and learned not just about editing but about coaching—helping someone through the process of writing a book, which is challenging in so many ways that aren’t just about the words and the pages. If that sounds fun to you, find out more about the coaching course at bookcoaches.com.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How to Build a Literary Life: Episode 293 with Zibby Owens Dec 10, 2021

But.

Links from the pod:

Lee Carpenter: Red, White, Blue and Eleven

Andre Agassi: Open

Zibby Books

Zibby Books Ambassadors (at bottom of Zibby Books page)

#AmReading

Zibby: Going There by Katie Couric

Hungry Hill by Eileen Patricia Curran

The Husbands by Chandler Baker

The Last Season by Jenny Judson & Danielle Mahfood

KJ: A Spindle Splintered by Alix E. Harrow

Jess: Speaking of Race by Celeste Headlee

Hey cupcakes, KJ here. Tonight I chatted with a writer who has a memoir that might—or might not—be ready to pitch. It’s hard to know the answer to that as a writer without getting some professional feedback (and you don’t want to pitch before you’re ready). So of course I pointed them toward Author Accelerator’s book coach matching services. The right coach can help get your project ready and then help you pitch it to the right agents. It’s an investment—but you’ve already invested HOW many years in this? I say go for it. And if you’d like to be the one to help writers make that leap, look into book coach certification. I loved the process—and I love knowing how to really help.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

A Busload of Books: Illustrator Robbi Behr and Writer Matthew Swanson Take Their Work and Their Family on the Road in Episode 292. Dec 03, 2021

Can a marriage survive nearly a quarter century of co-writing? I (Jess) present exhibit A on the side of yes, absolutely: illustrator Robbi Behr and writer Matthew Swanson. Robbi and Matthew met in college, have been partners in life and publishing ever since, and they (along with their four kids) are about to embark on their greatest adventure yet.

Robbi and Matthew have written over seventy books, initially with their own publishing house, and now with Random House (Knopf). Matthew writes the text, and Robbi creates the illustrations for their delightful picture and middle grade books. One of their favorite parts of being author/illustrators, however, is the part where they get to meet kids and talk about their work and the creative process.

Next year, the whole family will board a refurbished school bus and travel across the country to speak at Title I schools in all fifty states, giving away 25,000 copies of their books as they go.

Here’s a video about the adventure.

It’s an audacious, massive undertaking, and we are proud to be supporters of the Busload of Books Tour!

If you’d like to support them too, go to BusloadofBooks.com to donate, stay abreast of their adventures, and find out where they will be speaking in your state.

Links from the pod

The Most Dangerous Writing App

Robbi and Matthew’s books

The Daily Minute

Robbi and Matthew’s YouTube

Robbi’s and Matthew’s Instagram

Got a burning question about a writing life issue? Something on your mind you’d love for us to help you with? Email us at amwriting@substack.com. We can’t promise to answer everyone, but if we think we could be useful to you (or know someone who can) and if your issue is of interest to other listeners, we might invite you to come on the podcast for a little coaching.

Think you’d be pretty good on the other end of a coaching call? Then you should consider becoming a certified book coach through Author Accelerator’s book coach training program. It’s everything you need to know to begin working with clients on writing, planning, revising and querying (and then learning more and getting better with every new client and with Author Accelerator’s support and team behind you). Choose a fiction or nonfiction specialty, study with a cohort and design a new business or side-gig that works for you. Learn more at bookcoaches.com.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

How Do You Write a Non-Fiction Book in less than a Year? Episode 291: Coaching Call with Emily Edlynn Nov 26, 2021

Our guest on this episode has a problem—a good problem, yes. An enviable problem even. One that she herself is delighted to have: she’s sold a non-fiction book on proposal.

But it can be learned, and it can be done.

Gretchen appeared on Episode 107 of the podcast, and you can take her “Four Tendencies” quiz here.

Do you think you can help me??

Links from the Pod

How to Get an Agent Episode

https://www.emilyedlynnphd.com

#AmReading

Emily: The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel

Wow No Thank You by Samantha Irby

KJ: Becoming Duchess Goldblatt, Anonymous

Jess: The Secret History by Donna Tartt

Podcast: Lili Anolik’s Once Upon a Time at Bennington College

Want a “coaching call” of your own? Email us at amwriting@substack.com. We can’t promise to respond to every email, but we might answer your question on an upcoming episode—or invite you into the hotseat like Emily.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

What Not to Do, Self-Pub Edition Episode 290 with Cate Frazier-Neely Nov 19, 2021

Hi all! Jess here. I met performer and voice educator Cate Frazier-Neely through a mutual friend earlier this year, at a Sungazer concert. I was at the concert because my son is a massive fan of Sungazer bassist and YouTuber Adam Neely and Cate was there because she’s Adam Neely’s mom. When the topic of conversation turned away from my son’s hero worship of her son and toward writing and publishing (doesn’t it always?) she revealed she’d made ALL THE MISTAKES when self-publishing her first book, and, of course, I sensed an opportunity for an episode.

As this is a podcast all about flattening the learning curve for writers, I asked her to come on and tell us all the ugly details about publishing her book so we could learn from her mistakes.

Links from the Pod

Cate Frazier-Neely: https://www.catefnstudios.com

Episode 185: #AudioExplosion with Tanya Eby

Singing Through Change: Women's Voices in Midlife, Menopause, and Beyond by Cate Frazier-Neely

The Authors Guild

We had such a great time chatting we didn’t even get a chance to discuss what we’ve been reading!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Why Can't I Finish My Novel? Episode 289: A Coaching Call with Ophir Lehavy Nov 12, 2021

Why can’t I finish my novel?

KJ here, and when I saw that heartfelt cry in our Facebook Group, I knew we had to answer. Because finishing is hard, y’all. It’s harder than starting. It’s harder than showing up to the page. There comes a moment in so many projects when the wheels are spinning but the Matchbox car just isn’t going anywhere.

Ophir Lehavy is a coach herself, working with students to help them find ways to get their work done and feel more successful about it—so she knew the benefits of having someone else try to help you tease out the things that are getting in your way. There are many reasons for feeling stuck or stymied, but they often boil down to two things: feeling unable to take time away from other things, or being able to take the time—but not knowing what to do next.

We talk about both, and drill down hard on moving from one stage of a project to another, when the rhythm and goal have changed and you can’t simply keep doing what you’re doing—and come up with strategies to get Ophir, or anyone who’s stalled out, back on the road.

If you’ve got a coachable problem, we’d love to hear from you! Email us at amwriting@substack.com. We can’t promise to answer every email, but if your question is one that many listeners share and we can help with, we’ll try to answer it on the podcast, and we might even invite you on so we can really dig in.

Links from the pod:

Julie and Julia: The book and the movie.

Finish: Give Yourself the Gift of Done by Jon Acuff

How to Write an Autobiographical Novel & Edinburgh by Alexander Chee

Jennie Nash’s Blueprint for a Book

Save the Cat! Writes a Novel by Jessica Brody

#AmReading

Ophir: The Beekeeper of Aleppo by Christy Lefteri

A Long Petal of the Sea by Isabel Allende

KJ: The Donut Trap by Julie Tieu

And—got a burning question about a writing life issue? Something on your mind you’d love for us to help you with? Email us at amwriting@substack.com. We can’t promise to answer everyone, but if we think we could be useful to you (or know someone who can) and if your issue is of interest to other listeners, we might invite you to come on the podcast for a little coaching.

Finally, KJ here with a little news about Author Accelerator’s Book Coach Certification Program. I’m in the middle of it! You might remember this bonus episode, where Jennie Nash and I discussed “Shiny Thing Syndrome” and I was dubious about whether working with other writers as a book coach was a great side gig or a distraction for ME. Since then, I’ve been trying on the coach role in a number of small ways, and I’ve decided to go all in. This program is absolutely everything you need to get started from the editorial, coaching and business perspectives. It’s also entertaining and inspirational and makes me want to leap in right away. Learn more at Bookcoaches.com. (Want to see what I’m doing? Click here.)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Non-Toxic Feedback: Building workshops and writing groups. Episode 288 with Joni Cole Nov 05, 2021

How do I find a writing group and what if they’re mean?

But if you’ve ever thought of hying yourself off to your local version of Grub Street or our local spot for in-person writer-ness, The Writer’s Center to find your people—or possibly starting an in-person writer-connection-thing of your own, then you’ll want to listen to my conversation with Joni Cole, founder of said Writer’s Center and the author of Toxic Feedback: Helping Writers Survive and Thrive, Good Naked, and the This Day series, which collects diary entries from women all across the United States on a single day, and the host of the podcast Author, Can I Ask You. Joni and I talk starting writing groups, running them, keeping it positive and making sure you don’t lose your own work in the process of helping others.

Links from the pod

Writing Fiction: A Guide to Narrative Craft by Janet Burroway

The Place Between Breaths by An Na

#AmReading

Joni: Embassy Wife by Katie Crouch

American Dialogue by Joseph J. Ellis

Less by Andrew Sean Greer

Craft in the Real World by Matthew Salesses

(KJ and Jennie discussed Craft in the Real World in Episode 275: Writing While White (or otherwise part of the historically dominant paradigm))

KJ: Writing the Romantic Comedy by Billy Mernit

Find Joni: jonibcole.com

The Writer’s Center in White River Junction, VT

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

I Have This Idea...Structuring Non-fiction and Memoir: Episode 287 Coaching Call with Emily Henderson Oct 29, 2021

The hardest part about writing a book is … all of it. Or, arguably, whichever part you’re doing. For our guest on this episode, listener Emily Henderson, it’s something like “I know what I want to write about, but I don’t know how.

Structuring memoir or non-fiction (or, for that matter, fiction) is hard, y’all. And I think it gets talked about less in many ways that other elements of craft. We have this illusion that you come up with an idea and then you write it and it’s the writing that’s hard. But taking that idea and even getting it into a writeable shape is also hard. Are you writing a how-to book? A chronological story? A series of essays? An exploration of a big idea through a smaller lens?

You may not know until you try. We talk about exploring all the iterations and then—ironically, since what Emily hopes to do is explore her “Covid project” of running every street in Santa Barbara—we helped Emily build a NaNoWriMo-style “project” around finding her book’s structure and getting some words on the page. In the process, we talked structural failures, revisions and the importance of choosing a book and topic that you want to live with for a few years.

Talked about on the pod (again): The Art of the Book Proposal by Eric Maisel

#AmReading

Emily: Sue Grafton’s alphabet series C is for Corpse

Shoulder Season by Christina Clancy

KJ: Carnival of Snackery by David Sedaris

Theft By Finding also by David Sedaris

Jess: The Secret History by Donna Tartt

Boyfriend by Sarina Bowen (and then we list all of our favorite Sarina Bowen books and discuss the importance of finding a book that’s your particular flavor of ice cream)

Find Emily: emilykathleenwrites.com IG: @Emilykathleenwrites

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Breaking into Television Writing: Episode 286 with Will Morey Oct 22, 2021

Hello listeners! Jess here.

I had the chance to interview one of my former students, Will Morey, about his career as a writer. He has always been talented, and even way back when I knew him in high school English class (actually, since he was eight) he has dreamed of working in movies and television. We talk through his entire career, from a high school screenplay about vampires to working in professional theater, to helping create (and this was a new word for me) “Mockbusters,” or close-but-not-quite versions of big Hollywood blockbuster films, to working as a “Conform,” (another new word to me) to breaking through and writing animated features such as Spy Kids: Mission Critical and Dragons: Race to the Edge and Dragons: Rescue Riders. He’s currently querying literary agents for a novel he completed this year and in true #AmWriting fashion, we had to talk about how he selected the agents he has decided to reach out to and why.

At its core, this is a discussion about an education in writing for television and how the “little jobs” are often incredibly valuable as learning experiences in an industry with its own process, language, and expectations. And a walk down memory lane for Jess and Will.

Links from the Pod

Will Morey on Twitter: willofmars

Will Morey on Instagram: @will_of_mars

#AmReading

We did not do #AmReading because, to be honest, Jess was using her own personal version of Zoom and we’d bumped up against our time limit.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

When Agents Ask You to "Revise and Resubmit": Episode 285 with Mindy Carlson Oct 15, 2021

Querying and submitting is a jungle, campers—and yet if it’s done right, it can not only work out happily in the end, but seem as if it were meant to be. “Meant to be” after a year of additional work, anyway.

Mindy Carlson has just signed a 2 book deal with Crooked Lane Books. The first, Her Dying Day, comes out June 7, 2022. I asked her to come on to talk about her road to publication--because she revised and resubmitted her novel not just once but twice before signing with her now agent. Said agent was one of her top choices and among the first she submitted to, but it was a long road to that happy ending. Mindy tells the whole story in this episode, in which we also talk revisions, when editors know what’s wrong—but not necessarily how to fix it, writing conferences, thriller plotting and more.

Links from the Pod

The Big Thrill (the online magazine of the International Thriller Writers Association)

Mindy’s interview with Anthony Horowitz

Episode 229 #Interviewing with NPR's Celeste Headlee

#AmReading

Mindy: The Family Plot by Megan Collins

Dial A for Aunties by Jesse Q. Sutanto

KJ: No Bad Deed by Heather Chavez

A Special Place for Women by Laura Hankin

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

When Inner Dialogue Isn't "Telling" and When It Is in Memoir and Fiction: Episode 284 with Jess, KJ and Sarina Oct 08, 2021

All links and quotes from the pod are below—but first, did you know that making a podcast is not free? (We know, the nerve of people, wanting to be paid for their production or platforms or tools. You’d think they needed to eat or something.) Our sponsors pay for our production, but the time and effort we put into creating #AmWriting is supported by you, lovely listeners. If you’d like to chip in for more interviews, coaching, career and craft advice and all the #AmWriting things, click the yellow button. (Until I proofread this, that said “lick the yellow button”. Don’t do that.)

Links and quotes from the pod:

From In Her Boots:

Here’s the revision:

From We Are Not Like Them:

From Rosaline Palmer Takes the Cake:

p. 161 “She laughed and then hoped he’d meant her to.”

Also mentioned:

Beach Read by Emily Henry

Talia Hibbert

#AmReading

Jess: The Triumph of Seeds: How Grains, Nuts, Kernels, Pulses, and Pips Conquered the Plant Kingdom and Shaped Human History by Thor Hanson

KJ: We Are Not Like Them by Christine Pride & Jo Piazza

Sarina: The Enneagram in Love: A Roadmap for Building and Strengthening Romantic Relationships by Stephanie Barron Hall

GO GET A BOOK COACH! Or learn to be one. Seriously, if you’ve been thinking about it, what are you waiting for? Authoraccelerator.com or bookcoaches.com. Just take a look.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Where Do You Get Your Ideas? Episode 283: Turning situations into books with Heather Chavez Oct 01, 2021

Welcome to what I think we’ll designate as a fresh new season of #AmWriting! We are mixing it up a bit this fall. It’s KJ here, and I’ll be doing some great interviews on craft and getting the work done. Jess has some interviews up her sleeve as well, and Sarina will be joining us regularly for what I like to think of as “Masterclass” episodes on craft and process. We’ll also be doing some “coaching calls” with listeners who’ve written in with a burning question that one or more of of can help with—so if you’ve got something on your mind about your writing life, let us know at amwriting@substack.com. We can’t promise to answer every email, but if your question strikes us as something where we can helpfully weigh in, we’ll answer it—and we might just invite you to be a guest on the pod while we do.

BUT TODAY, enjoy my interview with Heather Chavez. Heather is the author of one amazing, fast-moving, can’t put it down heck of a ride thriller: No Bad Deed. Listen to this hook: A woman pulls over to help when she sees a man beating up another woman by the side of the road. He turns to her and says, you let her die, I let you live.

And OF COURSE SHE DOESN’T.

I asked Heather to join me to talk about ideas, and hooks, and most importantly the difference between an idea, a premise, a situation—and an actual, honest to gosh plot that becomes an entire, satisfying book. (The road between those points is so long, ammirite?)

We had a great time talking about that process, and I hope you enjoy it.

Links from the Pod

Heather:

https://heatherchavez.com, Twitter: iamHRChavez, FB: heatherchavezauthor, and IG: @iamhrchavez

Heather’s books: No Bad Deed and (for preorder) Blood Will Tell

#AmReading

Heather: The Family Plot by Megan Collins

For Your Own Good by Samantha Downing

Where I Left Her by Amber Garza

KJ: No Bad Deed by Heather Chavez

OUR FANTASTIC SPONSOR Author Accelerator matches writers with certified book coaches! Head to authoraccelerator.com if you’re ready for top-level feedback on your draft, outline or idea in fiction, non-fiction and memoir. The service is free (and it might not be free forever….) and done entirely by hand so that each author is matched with a coach who connects to the project. Get matched today!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 282: 40 Years of Procrastination with Joy Imboden Overstreet Sep 24, 2021

The author I’m interviewing today, Joy Imboden Overstreet, holds the distinction of having procrastinated on writing her first book longer than any previous #AmWriting guest—about 40 years. She is also the writer whose essay on her son’s unusual business venture enabled me, in my role as an editor at the NYT, to publish the paper’s first illustration of a personalized vibrator, and I will forever be grateful to her for that.

But wait, I hear you saying. Forty years? Forty? How did Joy manage to make it happen? Don’t worry—that’s exactly what we talk about in the episode. The backstory:

Back in 1975, Joy created a workshop program in the San Francisco Bay area on the her book’s topic: finding freedom from obsessing about food, weight and body size. When she sold the business to her partner to go to graduate school in public health in 1980, she fully intended to write a book based on her work, but—spoiler—things happened, and then more things happened (including a pretty thriving freelance career) until she woke up and realized her 80th birthday was only two years away and the book still only existed in her head. So she sat right down and typed it out and it was super easy. The end.

This is where I pause for Joy to laugh really hard.

So, Joy pulled it off, and in this episode she walks us through what it took to finally get her butt in the chair, and how—and with whom—she kept her head in the game.

A word about what we DON’T talk about—this isn’t a podcast about body perception or our beliefs around it, so while we necessarily touch on Joy’s personal journey, there’s nothing shaming or promoting of diet culture in the episode (or in Joy’s book). We’re focused on Joy’s accomplishment: going from “someday I will write a book” to “the end.”

Links from the pod:

Joy’s book: The Cherry Pie Paradox: The Surprising Path to Diet Freedom and Lasting Weight Loss

Author Accelerator’s book coach matching service

Joy’s essay in the New York Times: When Sex is a Family Business

#AmReading

Joy:

The Extended Mind by Annie Murphy Paul

How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain by Lisa Feldman Barrett

The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel Van Der Kolk

Improve Wisdom—Don’t Prepare, Just Show Up by Patricia Ryan Madson

KJ:

The Husbands by Chandler Baker

The Lost Apothecary by Sarah Penner

Lots of love for our sponsor, Author Accelerator, in this episode! Joy and KJ both talk about our coaching experiences and how even when we work solo, the time we spent getting that intense support really helps. If you’d like to be matched with a book coach, visit Author Accelerator—or if book coaching sounds like the right career or sidegig for you, head to bookcoaches.com to learn about Author Accelerator’s Book Coach Certification Program.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 281: Writing with the Door Open (Stephen King May Be Wrong) Sep 17, 2021

Stephen King says: Write with the door closed, rewrite with the door open. In this episode, we dare to ask if maybe that’s not always the case. Does having to put your idea into words and get it into another person’s head weaken it--or force you to make it strong?

Links from the pod:

The Idea: The Seven Elements of a Viable Story for Screen, Stage or Fiction by Erik Bork

Great Stories Don't Write Themselves: Criteria-Driven Strategies for More Effective Fiction by Larry Brooks

Libro.fm

#AmReading

KJ: The Bookshop of Second Chances by Jackie Fraser

The Diary of a Bookseller by Shaun Bythell

Jess has criticisms:

A Carnival of Snackery by David Sedaris

A Slow Fire Burning by Paula Hawkins

The Plot by Jean Hanff Korelitz

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 280: Book Launching Fun with Jess Sep 10, 2021

By popular request, it’s the 2021 The Addiction Inoculation Launch Story! Jess fills us in on the weirdness and craziness that was a mid-pandemic non-fiction book release. Her advice includes: don’t try to do too much, target your energy—and ask for help making choices when you don’t know what to do when. We talk balancing an outside and an inside publicist, working with local booksellers for signed copies and larger orders, the challenges of a world with far fewer speaking opportunities and just generally what went right and what could go better next time.

Links from the pod

Nicole Dewey

Media Mail via Paypal

Jess in People Magazine

#AmReading

Jess:

The Guncle by Steven Rowley

On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft by Stephen King

Horns by Joe Hill

Sarina:

Rosaline Palmer Takes the Cake by Alexis Hall

KJ Recommends:

Battle Royal by Lucy Parker

We are so grateful to our sponsor, Author Accelerator, and the writing community they’ve built! If you’ve considered becoming a book coach as a side gig or possible fresh new career, I—as in KJ—can’t recommend their coaching course highly enough. I’m doing it now, and even people who already have coaching businesses have joined in to build skills and connections. Plus it’s super fun. Head to bookcoaches.com for more details, or visit authoraccelerator.com to for their free book coach matching service.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 279: Collaborating, Revising and Proposing--What We Did On Our Summer Vacations Sep 03, 2021

Jess and Sarina are back! After a hard-working summer and an August of anxiety (don’t tell us you didn’t feel that too), we talk about how we got all the things done and all the things we have planned, with a fun diversion into how and where to end a chapter to create the illusion of a break while keeping the reader hooked. Plus, a summer reading review that will absolutely add to your #tbr.

Links:

Sarina’s new co-author, Lauren Blakely

Sarina’s latest best-seller: Waylaid

The Idea: The Seven Elements of a Viable Story for Screen, Stage or Fiction by Erik Bork. KJ thought she’d brought that book up on a Writer’s Bookshelf episode, but it turns out she didn’t—so it may turn up again in a future show.

#AmReading

Jess:

The Stand-In by Lily Chu, Wilding by Isabella Tree, and Once There Were Wolves by Charlotte McConaghy

KJ:

The Guncle by Steven Rowley, Good Company by Cynthia D'Aprix Sweeney, The Roxy Letters by Mary Pauline Lowry, and Having and Being Had by Eula Biss

Sarina:

The Plot by Jean Hanff Korelitz, Who is Maud Dixon? by Alexandra Andrews, Life’s Too Short by Abby Jimenez, and The Unhoneymooners by Christina Lauren (KJ tossed in The Last Thing He Told Me by Laura Dave.)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 278: Editing Aug 27, 2021

For that moment when you’ve hit the finish line—and now you’re going back to the beginning and starting all over again in a different hat.

In our new summer series, The Working Bookshelf, KJ and guest host Jennie Nash pull their favorite writing books off the shelf and debate: which is better and why—until invariably, they get distracted and just start talking about the topic at hand. Funny, fresh and full of frank advice, when KJ and Jennie get going they’re hard to stop.

This week, it’s Meander, Spiral, Explode: Design and Pattern in Narrative versus Blueprint for a Book.

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 10 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This special season of the #AmWriting podcast is sponsored by Author Accelerator. Author Accelerator hand-matches writers with book coaches who have been rigorously trained to provide motivation and inspiration and give writers the support we need to stop making excuses and get the job done. Find out more, and get book coach Jennie Nash’s weeklong find-your-foundation writing challenge at authoraccelerator.com/amwriting. Author Accelerator also trains book coaches to build their own successful coaching businesses. For more on becoming a coach, go to https://www.bookcoaches.com/.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 277: Writer Comfort Reads Aug 20, 2021

Sometimes you just need to spend a few hours with someone who really gets you—without actually having to talk to anyone.

This week, it’s Bird by Bird versus Making a Literary Life. Writer comfort reads from authors who know how we feel and can express it so well.

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 9 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This special season of the #AmWriting podcast is sponsored by Author Accelerator, where you can become as a book coach to build a side gig, or a full time career. Author Accelerator’s book coaches come from all backgrounds. They’re talented editors who’ve learned through rigorous training and ongoing education to coach writers through every step of the process, providing feedback, encouragement and tough love. Learn more about becoming a coach at https://www.bookcoaches.com/.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 276: When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This Aug 13, 2021

Sometimes you find yourself asking—over a draft, or a failed draft, or a sagging outline or just during a really long drive—why exactly you do this thing we do. This week, we turn to some favorites to help answer that question.

This week, it’s Start with Why versus How to Write an Autobiographical Novel.

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 8 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 275: Writing While White (or otherwise part of the historically dominant paradigm) Aug 06, 2021

Everybody, no matter what box we check or refuse to check on the census, sees life most easily from our own perspective while knowing there are many, many others. How do we write books that reflect the world we live in and all the people we live among—without claiming to speak about experiences we have not and cannot have?

There’s no competition this week, because the books we found on this topic are all helpful, whether you’re a white writer working toward change or a writer who identifies in another way, ready to point your colleagues towards some books that will help them evolve—or a writer who fits into any category (that’s all of us) who wants to be sure her characters who don’t fit that same mold ring true. Because you can’t only write books about yourself. Or maybe you can, but those are called memoir—and you still better be able to see other POVs.

This week’s books:

* The Anti Racist Writing Workshop

* Craft in the Real World

* Writing the Other

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 7 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 274: Getting Published Jul 30, 2021

Sometimes you just want to make that thing happen.

This week, it’s The Essential Guide to Getting Published versus 78 Reasons Why Your Book May Never Be Published and 14 Reasons Why It Just Might (which, KJ insists, is WAY more helpful than it sounds).

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 6 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 273: #Writing Books for When You're Stuck Jul 23, 2021

Sometimes writing is hard, y’all. Well, mostly it’s hard (and it’s a fun job and we enjoy it)—but sometimes you’re just really stuck and you don’t know why. You need help—and we’ve got books that offer it.

This week, it’s The War of Art versus Dear Writer You Need to Quit.

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 5 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 272: Sometimes Writers Need to Up Our Game Jul 16, 2021

KJ and Jennie truly go head-to-head in this one, because KJ loves a book Jennie loathes. Can she talk her around?

This week, we’re upping our games with The Practice versus The Bestseller Code.

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 4 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 271: #Productivity: Write More Better Faster Yes Please Jul 09, 2021

Who doesn’t want to write more faster and better? And who doesn’t get stuck spinning the old wheels once in a while?

This week, we take on Productivity with Deep Work versus From 2K to 10K.

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 3 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 270: #Plotting Your Heart (and Book) Out Jul 02, 2021

You CAN write a book without a plot (check out Anne Tyler’s Redhead By the Side of the Road if you doubt me, I swear to you that the most plotty thing that happens in it is the protagonist making a sandwich and yet you still want to keep reading). But if you’re not Anne Tyler (and I’m not), you ‘re going to need a nice plot arc to keep your pages turning—but not at the expense of your character’s emotional journey. How to get to both? How about a little help from a nice book?

This week, it’s Save the Cat Writes a Novel versus The Situation and the Story.

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 2 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 269: Finding #Inspiration on the Writer's Bookshelf Jun 25, 2021

Cage match! KJ’s favorite book on finding writerly inspiration versus Jennie Nash’s favorite of same. In our new summer series, The Working Bookshelf, KJ and guest host Jennie Nash pull their favorite writing books off the shelf and debate: which is better and why—until invariably, they get distracted and just start talking about the topic at hand. Funny, fresh and full of frank advice, when KJ and Jennie get going they’re hard to stop.

This week, it’s Big Magic versus The Creative Habit.

In a new twist, you can also watch these episodes on YouTube. Find Episode 1 HERE.

And, for your looking-forward pleasure, here’s the whole series, dropping once weekly all through the summer of 2021.

1. Inspiration2. Plotting3. Productivity4. Up Your Game5. When You're Stuck6. Getting Published7. Writing While White8. When You Don't Know Why You're Doing This9. Writer Comfort Reads 10. Editing

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 268 #SummerReading: Whose List Looks Like Your List? Jun 18, 2021

Whose summer #TBR looks like yours?

Call it a game, a competition or just an excuse to talk about books: this week we’re doing something new. Each of us will share 6 summer reading recommendations—some we’ve read, some we’re stockpiling for when our own vacations arrive. Your job is to pick whose list looks most like yours—which of us would you let choose the books for YOUR next vacation? (Fellow fans of the Bookriot podcast, yes, this is absolutely blatant theft—ahem, homage. Love you Jeff and Rebecca!)

The Lists:

Who Is Maud Dixon? by Alexandra Andrews

Skye Falling by Mia McKenzie

Embassy Wife by Katie Crouch

The Plot by Jean Hanff Korelitz

The Lost Apothecary by Sarah Penner

Somebody’s Daughter by Ashley C. Ford

Jess

A Woman in the Polar Night by Christiane Ritter

The Weight of Air by David Poses

New Girl in Little Cove by Damhnait Monaghan (pronounced Downith),

Dear Ann by Bobbie Ann Mason

Hamnet by Maggie O’Farrell

Fox and I by Catherine Raven

Sarina

Malibu Rising by Taylor Jenkins Reid

Finlay Donovan is Killing it by Elle Cosimano

Life is Too Short by Abby Jimenez

Rosaline Palmer Takes the Cake by Alexis Hall

Get a Life Chloe Brown by Talia Hibbert

Valedictorians at the Gate by Becky Munsterer Sabky

Also mentioned

Dial A for Aunties by Jesse Q. Sutanto

Bookriot Podcast Episode 447: Summer Draft Results and Somebody’s Daughter by Ashley Ford

Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens

Ashley C. Ford (@iSmashFizzles) on Twitter

VOTING: If you receive the shownotes by email, vote by replying. Otherwise, send your picks to amwriting@substack.com

NEXT WEEK Our summer series, The Working Bookshelf, starts! Every week, KJ and Jennie Nash choose two beloved writing books on a variety of topics, from productivity to editing, and debate: which is better? Which helps more? Which should be on your shelf?

Jess and Sarina will be back in the fall, and we have a great new series up our sleeves. Sign up for our weekly emails HERE so you won’t miss it.

#AmWriting is, as always, sponsored by Author Accelerator. Our advice this week: Follow founder Jennie Nash on Instagram for her breakdowns on book coaching lessons learned from We Should All Be Millionaires. No matter where you are in your writing journey, there’s something there for you. Find out more about getting a book coach HERE or learn more about becoming one HERE.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 267 #Summer Writing Plans Jun 11, 2021

Summer is… here? Nigh? Here and nigh? The sun is frequently shining, the end-of-year festivities are doing their kinda-post-pandemic-kinda-not thing and soon, if you’re a family type, you’ll have kids home for the duration—and if you’re not, the great outdoors will still be calling, making it harder to work than when you’re hunkered down during a snowstorm.

We talk summer writing goals and the challenges of meeting them, share summer podcast plans and get generally excited for changing it up and taking some breaks.

Jess shouts out the Spotify Deep Focus Playlist, and KJ vague-reviews a book that didn’t stick the landing. (If you’re dying of curiosity, send an email and we’ll share the title, but we decided long ago that we’re a podcast for literary love, not lit crit.)

#AmReading

Jess: The Soulmate Equation by Christina Lauren

Sarina: Annabeth Albert

Rachel Lacey

Eli Easton

Garrett Leigh

Autoboyography by Christina Lauren

KJ: Honey Girl by Morgan Rogers

The Great Believers by Rebecca Makkai

As always we’re sponsored by Author Accelerator—THE place to find a book coach or become one! KJ here, and I think I’m a book coach addict. I have an editor waiting for this revision and an agent who’s always happy to read and I’m STILL tempted to call up a coach and say, please, hold my hand! I’m resisting (because I’ve ALREADY DONE THAT for this book, twice) but you shouldn’t. A book coach could help you set the right kind of goals for the summer, or be ready and waiting when you get back into gear in the fall—or, spend some time this summer setting up your book coaching side gig. New seasons, fresh starts, love them all. Find a book coach HERE or learn more about becoming one HERE.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 266 #Sensitivity Readers with Jordan Shapiro and Jazz Jun 04, 2021

We asked Jordan and Jazz to join us to talk about the experience of working together to create Father Figure.

#AmReading

Jazz: What's Your Pronoun?: Beyond He and She by Dennis Baron

Jordan: Interior Chinatown by Charles Yu

Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro

KJ: Conjure Women by Afia Atakora

Jess: Act Your Age, Eve Brown by Talia Hibbert

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 265 Everybody Suffers, Not Everybody Can #Write About it with Stacy Kim May 28, 2021

Stacy Kim is a freelance writer who’s beginning to see some real success in her career, with bylines in Real Simple, The Washington Post, Wired and more. We talked to her about getting started as a writer, finding her topic and her expertise, and learning that it’s not enough to have a story—you have to give the editor a reason to want you to share it, and the reader a reason to want to read it.

Links from the Pod: Sue Shapiro’s classes (highly recommended)

Stacy’s essays and other work:

Lighthouse Method in Real Simple

hoarding in WashPo

I found Korean culture sexist and stifling. Then my kid fell in love with K-pop:https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/05/07/korean-culture-teenager-fan/A visit to Seoul during Covid changed my opinion of a country I once despisedhttps://www.independent.co.uk/voices/seoul-korea-covid-pandemic-america-b1816535.html

wired Got Done List

#AmReading

Stacy: If I had Your Face by Frances Cha

Miracle Creek by Angie Kim

Ethan Cross, Jeffrey Selingo

KJ: Where the Grass Is Green and the Girls Are Pretty by Lauren Weisberger

Sarina: Reality Is Broken: Why Games Make Us Better and How They Can Change the World by Jane McGonigal

And check out Stacy’s website www.lifejunctions.com

In this episode, we talk—indirectly—about owning your expertise. It’s a challenge for many of us to admit we know things, that we’re good at things, that we have experience to offer. If your experience is as a reader and editor, maybe it’s time for you to turn what you have to offer into a real business by becoming a book coach. Just imagine enrolling in the classes, meeting a cohort, learning all the ways coaches are editorial and emotional support for writers and then starting to line up your first clients. Students working with Author Accelerator say they begin to book authors before they’re even done with the course, and often end up being booked months in advance. Sound like fun? AGREED. Go to bookcoaches.com to learn more.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 264 Being #Edited (is a Very Good Thing) May 21, 2021

We love being edited. We love editors. But truth: sometimes being edited is hard. Sometimes you need to interpret things differently, ask questions or push back. In this episode, we talk about how to do that, what makes a good editor and how to find one, how to be edited in your freelance work and—my favorite—why you can’t say your editor is wrong.

#AmReading

Jess: Turning Pointe: How a New Generation of Dancers Is Saving Ballet from Itself by Chloe Angyal

Punch Me Up to the Gods by Brian Broome

Sarina: Act Your Age, Eve Brown by Talia Hibbert

KJ: Malibu Rising by Taylor Jenkins Reid

If you reply to this email I’ll tell you what book Jess didn’t like :).

Thinking about hiring an editor—aka a book coach? I’ve worked with two from Author Accelerator now (and I PAID THEM, it’s not a perk of being sponsored :)) and they were wonderful. As we say in the episode, the best editors represent your readers, and they know what those readers are here for and how you can give it to them. Author Accelerator book coaches are those editors. Find them here—or, if you know you’ve got exactly that editor within you, head here to find out more about becoming a book coach yourself.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 263: No, Really, It's #Fiction: Writing novels that reflect (but differ dramatically from) your life with Emma Gannon May 14, 2021

Emma Gannon is a best-selling author, a podcaster, a journalist, writer of fiction and non-fiction and just general woman-about-town, as known for her writing about the new world of work as she soon will be for her fiction. Her debut novel, Olive, centers on a journalist who loves her career and the many other things that fill her world, friends, fun, family—and is in the process of owning her sense that children won’t be one of those things. Emma, like her protagonist, is happily without spawn—and that’s what we’re talking about on the pod. No, not deciding whether to have kids, you know us better than that—but turning your personal life into fiction—advantages, disadvantages, and what comes next.

#AmReading

Emma: Animal by Lisa Taddeo

The Way of Integrity: Finding the Path to Your True Self by Martha Beck

Jess: High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped and How We Get Out by Amanda Ripley

KJ: Would I lie to you by Judi Ketteler

Find our guest, Emma Gannon, on Twitter at @emmagannon, her website www.emmagannon.co.uk, and check out her podcast—Ctrl Alt Dlt.

Hello, your dream job is calling! Click here to revel in some success stories from Author Accelerator’s book coach certification program and imagine where you could be next year—if you sign up now.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 262: #Breaking into Food Writing and Redefining Success with Reem Kassis May 07, 2021

Our guest today is a wildly successful food writer who’s fresh off an appearance on Fresh Air—and who never “should” have written a cookbook at all. (Read on for a recipe.) Here’s her bio, in her own words:

I grew up a Palestinian in Israel. I went to an American missionary school and by the grace of whatever gods were looking down on me and sheer grit, I came to UPenn for undergrad, where I struggled initially, but kept going until I graduated in the top of my class and went on straight to do my MBA at Wharton. From there, McKinsey, The London School of Economics, The World Economic Forum and, by any measure, a fast track, prestigious career. But I felt disillusioned when I realized I was following the herd and living someone else’s version of success, not mine. So I turned my back on the whole thing and decided to write a cookbook.

But she did (The Palestinian Table) and now she’s written another (The Arabesque Table). We talk about the nitty gritty of cookbook publishing along with the things she didn’t know (and how that helped), why you should just ask and how to convince yourself—and others—that you know what you need to know to make this happen.

#AmReading

Reem: Beyond the North Wind: Russia in Recipes and Lore by Darra Goldstein

The Mountains Sing by Mai Phan Que Nguyen

Your Turn: How to Be an Adult by Julie Lythcott-Haims

KJ: My Kitchen Year : 136 Recipes That Saved My Life: a Cookbook by Ruth Reichl

Cook’s Illustrated Chinese Recipes

Sarina: Food52 Genius Recipes: 100 Recipes That Will Change the Way You Cook by Kristen Miglore

Find Reem on Instagram: Reem.kassis

RECIPE!

Quick and Easy Bseeseh (Nut and Date Snacks)

Makes 25-30 balls

Ingredients

1 cup (51/4 oz/150 g) unhulled sesame seeds

14 oz (400 g) date paste (see Note)

2 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil (choose one whose flavor you like)

1/4 cup (1 oz / 30 g) pistachios (or any other nut you like), coarsely ground

1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon

Method

1. Line a large plate with parchment or wax (greaseproof) paper and set aside.

2. In a large frying pan, dry-roast the sesame seeds over medium heat, stirring constantly, until aromatic and toasted, 7–10 minutes. You’ll know they are toasted when you start to hear some seeds popping and smell the nutty aroma of sesame and notice the color darken slightly. Remove from the heat, transfer to a plate, and set aside to cool completely.

3. In a large bowl, combine the date paste, olive oil, pistachios, cinnamon, and cooled sesame seeds. Mix with your hands until thoroughly combined. Wearing disposable food gloves is the easiest way to do this.

4. Take about 1 tablespoon of the mixture and roll between your palms to form a ball, then place on the lined plate. Repeat to make 25–30 balls.

5. Store the balls in an airtight container, with layers of parchment beneath and between. Although they will keep in an airtight container at room temperature for a couple of weeks, I recommend storing them in the fridge. They taste just as delicious when firmer and cooler.

Note from Reem: Date paste can be found in any Middle Eastern grocery shop. You could also buy very soft Medjool dates and work them into a paste with your hands. If you do, I recommend wearing gloves and using some oil, otherwise it can get quite sticky. To get 14 ounces (400 g) of date paste you will need roughly 25 large Medjool dates. Addendum from KJ: There are lots of recipes for date paste online, and most seem to involve soaking the dates first overnight then popping them in a food processor or blender. I’m guessing that’s probably because your dates are unlikely to be “very soft.”

And—hello, your dream job is calling! Click here to revel in some success stories from Author Accelerator’s book coach certification program and imagine where you could be next year—if you sign up now.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 261 Really #Funny, Real and Funny: Rom-Coms, plotting and finding characters with Mhairi McFarlane Apr 30, 2021

Plotting and pantsing, loving your genre, voice, self-doubt… what didn’t we talk about with Mhairi McFarlane? And she has such a lovely Scottish accent to do it in, too. We know you’ll love this episode.

#AmReading

Mhairi: The Flatshare by Beth O’Leary (aka El Piso Para Dos in KJ’s Spanish version)

Sweet Sorrow by David Nicholls

Sarina: The Price You Pay for College by Ron Lieber (from episode Turning Data into #Narrative)

Re-reading Rock Chick by Kristen Ashley

KJ: Life’s Too Short by Abby Jimenez

Follow Mhairi on Twitter: @mhairimcf

In this episode we talked a lot about finding ideas, chasing them around and pinning them down. Jennie Nash from our sponsor, Author Accelerator, has a list of the idea process, in this case for non-fiction books:

* I had an idea, which came to me in the form of six words in a very specific order…

* and which stuck in my mind long enough to ping against a memory…

* which caused me to think about the connection between those two things (this new thought, this old memory)…

* which prompted me to land on the idea of a process…

* which suggests some sort of order or structure or shape…

* which led me to believe I had something to say…

* which prompted me to put a title on a blank page and start writing this blog post…

* which I already have a strong feeling is going to become a book.

In fiction, it goes somewhat differently—at least, I can’t see where “process” fits in—but the two things pinging against one another in your brain rings true for me for sure. Sign up for their free email Writing Challenge to help you plan what your book will be about, how to structure it, where it starts and ends, and who your target readers are and what they are looking for—and you’ll also be on the list to get emails from Jennie that somehow always manage to be just what I need when they arrive.

Have you checked out the Writing Class Radio podcast? Writing Class Radio is a podcast of a writing class. If you love stories and get inspired by hearing other people tell their stories and want to learn a little bit about how to write your own stories, then this podcast is for you. Check it out here or search for it in your pod-player.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 260 #Writing Without Knowing Where You're Going with Kristin Van Ogtrop Apr 23, 2021

Working on an essay collection? Dreaming of becoming a literary agent? We were all over the map with Kristin Van Ogtrop, agent at InkWell Management, author of the essay collection Did I Say That Out Loud: Midlife Indignities and How to Survive Them and former editor of Real Simple Magazine (which KJ mistakenly attributed to Conde Nast but is really part of the Time Inc. empire). Midlifers, essayists, job-hoppers—this is for you!

Mentioned on the pod

The Empty Glass by J.I. Baker

Nalini Singh, #AmWriting episode The Power of Writing as Play

The Neapolitan Quartet by Elena Ferrante

#AmReading

Kristin: American Baby: A Mother, a Child, and the Shadow History of Adoption by Gabrielle Glaser

Jess: Bombshells by Sarina Bowen

The Happy Ever After Playlist and Life’s Too Short by Abby Jimenez

KJ: Brood by Jackie Polzin

Find Kristin on Instagram and Twitter as @kvanogtrop

or at her website www.kristinvanogtrop.com

Your dream job is calling—can you hear it? Check out these success stories from Author Accelerator’s book coach certification program and start imagining what your life could look like this time next year.

And have you checked out the Writing Class Radio podcast? Writing Class Radio is a podcast of a writing class. If you love stories and get inspired by hearing other people tell their stories and want to learn a little bit about how to write your own stories, then this podcast is for you. Check it out here or search for it in your pod-player.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 259: More Q, More A: Organizing research, handling would-be writer friends, finding great editors and writing classes and the kicker: How Do You Become Liz Gilbert? Apr 16, 2021

We love answering your questions! If we missed yours, head over to the Facebook group or reply to this episode and we’ll try to get there next time.

Links from the pod: early episodes on How to Get an Agent, Planning your work, Keeping Organized, and Getting Unstuck

Semikolon sticky notes

Evernote

Best online writing classes: Rachael Herron, Better Faster Academy, Grub Street, New School, Writers Digest University, Gotham Writers, Writers Studio, UPOD Academy, Sue Shapiro

#AmReading

Jess: Last Call by Elon Green

KJ: Super Host by Kate Russo

And—love us, love our sponsors! If you’ve been dreaming of a book coaching career, you know you want the guidance of Jennie Nash and the crew at AuthorAccelerator. You’ll find everything you need at bookcoaches.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 258 Writing While #Broken: Talking Depression, Anxiety and Writer's Block with Jenny Lawson Apr 09, 2021

#AmReading

Jess: Win by Harlan Coben

Jenny: Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro

Hour of the Witch by Chris Bohjalian

Note: Bookriot Podcast

KJ: The Fifth Petal by Brunonia Barry

Jenny’s Bookshop: The Nowhere Bookshop, San Antonio, TX

The Fantastic Strangelings Book Club books:

Professional Troublemaker by Luvvie Ajayi Jones

Swallowed Man by Edward Carey

Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia

Catherine House by Elisabeth Thomas

The Did Bad Things by Lauren A. Forry

Wow, No Thank You by Samantha Irby

Find Jenny at The Bloggess!

Need a new gig in the writing world? Have you considered becoming a book coach, but never known how to get started or been able to envision what that might look like for YOU? Author Accelerator can help. Sign up at bookcoaches.com to get a free mini course on what book coaching is, who makes a good book coach, and how you can make money helping writers soar.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 257 Become a #Better Faster Stronger Writer with Becca Syme Apr 02, 2021

Links from the pod

The Clifton Strengths Test

The Ted Lasso blog post

Better Faster Academy

The Quitcast on YouTube

#AmReading

Becca:

Mandy M. Roth

Yasmine Galenorn

Rajani LaRocca

DEVS (TV show)

Sarina: Unguarded by Jay Hogan (part of Sarina’s World of True North)

KJ: The S**t No One Tells You About Writing (podcast)

Have y’all heard about the Writing Class Radio podcast? Writing Class Radio is a podcast of a writing class. If you love stories and get inspired by hearing other people tell their stories and want to learn a little bit about how to write your own stories, then this podcast is for you. Check it out here or search for it in your pod-player.

KJ here, popping in to tell y’all about what happened for me with Author Accelerator two weeks ago. I needed a fresh “cold read” of a book that everyone close to me has now read about twelve times, so Author Accelerator set me up with a brand new coach. For $2k (yes, you have to pay for expertise) she read my 320 page manuscript in a weekend and answered all my questions (I had some very specific things I needed help with). I’m wrapping up a revision for my new editor now and I couldn’t be happier. I love that they could do that for me—and I still love the thought that maybe I could become that coach for someone else. If that turns you on, too, head to bookcoaches.com to learn more—or if you’re looking for editorial eyes, check in at authoraccelerator.com. (And reply to this email if you’d like to know more about my coach, who was great!)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 256 Your Q's, A'd: Stealing ideas, asking for blurbs and the elusive "platform" Mar 26, 2021

It’s part one of… who knows? As we answer questions from our email and our Facebook group (if you’re not part of that, jump in HERE). We answered questions about working with experts, talking about WIPS (nonfiction and fiction, both), sucking up to influencers, being told your platform sucks, Goodreads etiquette and the always popular can you make a living writing (yes, but not quickly or easily).

If your questions is still unanswered, no worries—we’ve got more in the queue for upcoming episodes. And feel free to ask us anything, via Facebook, by replying to this if you’ve received it as an email or by emailing TKPOD EMAIL LINK.

#AmReading

Jess: Yellow Bird by Sierra Crane Murdoch

KJ: A Cup of Silver Linings by Karen Hawkins

Jess here, to rave about all I continue to learn at The Great Courses Plus. I’ve been on a Jamestown kick, a Victoria kick, a great women in writing jag, and even traveled to Ireland recently in a travel video and again through a course on paganism in Europe. Who knows what I will be learning next week. Sometimes I listen to random classes just to see if I like the topic, and if not, who cares! Try another! You can get a month free if you use the link thegreatcoursesplus.com/amwriting. Go forth and learn something!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 255 The Power of Writing as Play with Nalini Singh Mar 19, 2021

Nalini Singh is a romance writer. Or, she was a romance writer until she decided she wanted to write a thriller. Jess and Sarina had so much fun talking about genre hopping and writing the books that speak to you. There’s no requirement that we stay in our lanes, Nalini reminded us. We also took some time to lament our dearly missed in-person writers conferences and Nalini gushed about the joy of afternoon teas with her superfans.

Sarina often points to Nalini’s email newsletter as one of the best she’s read, so we are linking to it here and you should absolutely sign up. She offers bonus content and glances behind the scenes of her life as a writer in New Zealand.

Finally, Nalini reminds of the power of play in writing. She wrote her thrillers as exercises in play, something with no deadlines attached, and offers this sage advice:

“Don’t be afraid to write the book that wants to be different from all the rest.”

With that, go forth and play with your words, but go visit Nalini Singh’s website first.

#AmReading

Nalini: The entire J.D. Robb backlist

Sarina: Darkroom by Kate Willoughby (part of Sarina’s World of True North)

Jess: Simon v. The Homo Sapiens Agenda by Becky Albertalli

KJ here, popping in to tell y’all about what happened for me with Author Accelerator this week. I needed a fresh “cold read” of a book that everyone close to me has now read about twelve times, so Author Accelerator set me up with a brand new coach. For $2k (yes, you have to pay for expertise) she read my 320 page manuscript in a weekend and answered all my questions (I had some very specific things I needed help with). I’m wrapping up a revision for my new editor now and I couldn’t be happier. I love that they could do that for me—and I still love the thought that maybe I could become that coach for someone else. If that turns you on, too, head to bookcoaches.com to learn more—or if you’re looking for editorial eyes, check in at authoraccelerator.com.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 254 How to Prep a NonFiction Launch the Jess Way Mar 12, 2021

Jess’s new book, The Addiction Inoculation, launches April 6th, and we talk about all the things she’s done to set herself up for feeling like she’s done everything in her power to make this launch a good one. We discuss the differences between launching fiction and non-fiction, first book vs. second book, non-covid v. covid, when to hire a publicist, turning a book into a speaking career and (as always) more.

#AmReading

Sarina: Spoiler Alert by Olivia Dade

Jess: 1619 by James Horn (watching: Jamestown on Amazon Prime)

KJ: You’ll Never Believe What Happened to Lacey by Amber Ruffin and Lacey Lamar

Spring is coming (slowly here in New England) and we’re excited about the whole idea of change and new beginnings and birds and grass and—stuff like that. What does that have to do with #AmWriting? Maybe it’s time for a new beginning for you as a book coach? Just imagine enrolling in the classes, meeting a cohort, learning all the ways coaches are editorial and emotional support for writers and then starting to line up your first clients. Students working with Author Accelerator say they begin to book authors before they’re even done with the course, and often end up being booked months in advance. Sound like fun? AGREED. Go to bookcoaches.com to learn more.

And at the beginning of the episode, we listened to Jess talk about all the things she loves about The Great Courses – and we think you’ll like it too! Whether you want to learn ASL, deep dive into Russian literature, or study more about the history of getting to where we, as humans, are today; The Great Courses Plus has a topic for you. You can find out more by visiting https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 253 From Breakout Article to Book: Writing about #Nothing and Everything with Olga Mecking Mar 05, 2021

Today's guest, Olga Mecking, is a freelance journalist who’s enjoyed exactly the version of success many freelancers dream about. She went from publishing her own work on her blog to pitching outside publications, gradually reaching bigger and bigger audiences until her article The Case for Doing Nothing in the New York Times became a breakout success and led to a book contract for her new book Niksen: Embracing the Dutch Art of Doing Nothing.

I know you’ll enjoy this interview—we go deep into building a freelance career and the nuts and bolts of making that happen. We’re shaking things up a little this week, and I interviewed Olga solo, which made a nice break for me from the novel revisions I’m working on, or at least staring at, this week. One thing Olga and I talk about is what it was like to go from writing articles to writing an entire book—and part of the answer was, painful! But it’s still the dream for many writers. If you’ve got a book in you and you’re struggling to bring it out, you should absolutely check in with our sponsor, Author Accelerator, where they can match you up with a book coach who suits your work no matter where you are in the process. And if it’s the book coaching part of that that intrigues you, Author Accelerator also trains its book coaches in everything that goes into working with writers and running a book coaching business. You can find out more about that at bookcoaches.com/amwriting.

Links from the Podcast

Olga’s freelance portfolio

Olga’s original piece in Woolly Magazine is no longer available online.

Susan Maccarelli’s Beyond Your Blog podcast is also no longer available.

Olga’s original article in the NYT: The Case for Doing Nothing

Olga’s piece in Well Family: In the Country of Motherhood, Finding My Own Path

Some great advice from Olga on freelancing at Forbes.com.

Olga’s grandfather’s memoir of surviving the Holocaust, translated by Olga.

#AmReading

Olga:The Confession by Jessie Burton

Oxford Key Mysteries by Lynn Morrison

KJ:The Cuban Girl’s Guide to Tea and Tomorrow by Laura Taylor Namey

Follow Olga on Facebook, by joining her Facebook Group The Nikseneers or at her website: www.olgamecking.com

We hope you’ve heard Jess waxing rhapsodic about learning all the things over at The Great Courses Plus. Goodness knows what she’s learning about today….small business accounting? The Pacific Theater in WWII? Anything’s possible, because…Jess. If you’d like to learn something new today, you can get a free month of The Great Courses Plus at thegreatcoursesplus.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 252 How to Write a Post-Covid Romance with Alisha Rai Feb 26, 2021

Alisha Rai writes fun, joyful contemporary romances about smart, mature people who still struggle to find love. And by mature, we don’t mean old—I mean, these characters make good choices and try to understand themselves and other people, but it’s still not easy.

We talk about those character choices, but before we dig in, we discuss Alisha’s decision to set her current book, First Comes Like, in a post-Covid world with special attention to what it’s going to be like as we emerge from a period of loneliness and loss—and still write a funny, entertaining, diverting romance.

#AmReading

KJ: First Comes Like by Alisha Rai

Sarina: Sweetheart by Sarah Mayberry

Alisha: Big Bad Wolf by Suleikha Snyder

Second First Impressions by Sally Thorne

Love at First by Kate Clayborn

Find Alisha:

On Twitter: @AlishaRai

On Instagram: @AlishaRaiWrites

On TikTok: @TheRealAlishaRai

Wish you had someone to discuss settings and characters and possible post-Covid worlds with as you work on your current project? Or do you wish you could be that sounding board for other writers? Our sponsor, Author Accelerator, can help you find a book coach or become one. Find out more at authoraccelerator.com and bookcoaches.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 251 How to give your fun read a solid, poke-in-the-gut point with Anna North Feb 19, 2021

It’s a freewheeling conversation about writing fiction that tells a great story—and makes you think about the world beyond the story, with January Reese’s Book Club pick Anna North.

Links from the pod:

Anna’s essay on the writing of Outlawed

#AmReading

Anna: In the Distance by Hernan Diaz

How Much of These Hills Is Gold by C. Pam Zhang

Jess: First Comes Like by Alisha Rai http://www.alisharai.com/

KJ: Stay With Me by Ayobami Adebayo

And—if you’re in the midst of a project and you with you had someone to help you balance story and that not-too-pokey-stick point, our sponsor, Author Accelerator, can help find the right coach for you—or help you become that coach for someone else. Find out more at bookcoaches.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 250: Growing Thick Skin: Handling #Haters, Commenters and Bad Reviews Feb 12, 2021

Does this ever get easier? That’s the question we’re often asked by newer writers in the process of putting themselves out there and worried about how their work will be received. We were unanimous—yes, it does, and you don’t have to spend five years reading every single comment on your writing (and parenting, and intelligence, and everything else) from New York Times readers to get to the point where you can manage even the reviews you most dread without letting them keep you up at night.

We talk types of bad reviews, strategies for coping with them and how to arm yourself for everything your pub date can bring.

#AmReading

KJ: Cobble Hill by Cecily Von Ziegesar

Eliza Starts a Rumor by Jane L. Rosen

Sarina: Dreyer's English: An Utterly Correct Guide to Clarity and Style by Benjamin Dreyer

Jess: Studly Period by Sarina Bowen (on audio)

Victoria: The Queen: An Intimate Biography of the Woman Who Ruled an Empire by Julia Baird

In this episode, we talk about how Jennie Nash from Author Accelerator makes you write both your most dreaded review—and your best one—and how knowing what you fear before your book is even written can help you handle whatever comes. If you’d like to work with a book coach like Jennie, head to AuthorAccelerator.com—and if you think your talents lie in helping other authors prevent the worst reviews they fear, you should consider becoming a book coach. You can learn more about that at bookcoaches.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 249: Turning Data into #Narrative with Ron Lieber Feb 05, 2021

In this episode, we go seriously pro, talking to Ron Lieber, the Your Money columnist for the New York Times and the author of The Price You Pay for College and The Opposite of Spoiled. Ron shares his system for writing information and data-packed chapters—or columns—while making them relatable and digestible. Pro tip: it starts with “strip-mining” the brains of the top five experts you can find—and, as Ron says, being in the business of asking uncomfortable questions. Other great moments—waterproof shower crayons and how to highlight a tweet without interrupting the reading of your audio-book.

Find all things Ron here.

#AmReading

Ron: Unacceptable: Privilege, Deceit & the Making of the College Admissions Scandal by Melissa Korn and Jennifer Levitz

Who Gets in and Why: A Year Inside College Admissions by Jeffrey Selingo

The Psychology of Money: Timeless Lessons on Wealth, Greed, and Happiness by Morgan Housel

Jess: Moral Tribes: Emotion, Reason, and the Gap Between Us and Them by Joshua Greene

KJ: The Bestseller Code: Anatomy of the Blockbuster Novel by Jodie Archer and Matthew L. Jockers

So, did you know Jennie Nash grossed over $400K as a book coach in 2020? If that makes your ears perk up—and I bet it did—and you’re intrigued by the idea of working with writers, helping people realize their dreams and making money doing it, head to bookcoaches.com/amwriting to learn more.

Jess is at it again, learning all the things. This week, the former Latin teacher revisited the story of Julia, the daughter of Caesar Augustus and the Celtic warrior queen, Boudicca in the course, “Warriors, Queens, and Intellectuals: 36 Great Women before 1400,” taught by Joyce E. Salisbury, Ph.D. She’s learning things and taking names. If you are interested in giving The Great Courses Plus a try, you can get a month free at thegreatcoursesplus.com/amwriting! Go forth, dear #AmWriters, and learn something new!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 248 Mental #Chatter with Ethan Kross: Harnessing the voices in our heads for good Jan 29, 2021

Our guest today, Ethan Kross, is one of the world’s leading experts on controlling the conscious mind. His new book, Chatter: The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters and How to Harness it, sits at that enviable intersection between academic and commercial nonfiction, and in a way that seems to be exactly where Ethan himself—who teaches in both the business school and the Psychology Department at the University of Michigan—sits, right there in the place where all kinds of things intersect, doing research into the ways our mysterious selves affect the ways we behave on the inside and on the outside.

We talked to Ethan about what we call “writer chatter”—those voices in our head that tell us we’re not good enough, smart enough, anything enough to write the things we want to write, and then we branched off into his experience transitioning from academic writing to writing for a wider audience and what his inner voices had to say about that. In the end, Ethan reminded us that we don’t want to live without our inner voices—we need them in many ways—but we do want to shift those voices to our most positive “station.” His tips for doing that—using treasured objects and lucky charms, reminders of the ways we’ve been down this road before and encouraging the power of our own optimism—are going to help us get our inner chatterboxes on the right track.

#AmReading

Ethan: A Promised Land by Barack Obama

Eat a Peach by David Chang

Sarina: A Rogue of One’s Own by Evie Dunmore

KJ: Interior Chinatown by Charles Yu

And I—KJ—spent an hour on Zoom this week with a pack of excited alums from Author Accelerator’s book coaching course, and it was so much fun to hear a little about their plans and talk about the ways being coached has helped me—immeasurably—with my fiction. If becoming a book coach has been niggling around the corners of your brain, poking you and demanding that you give it some thought, head to bookcoaches.com/amwriting to learn more.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 247: #Writing All Over the Map with Jacob Sager Weinstein Jan 22, 2021

This week Jess talks to Jacob Sager Weinstein, a writer who has done just about everything. He started out with highbrow aspirations, as he learned his craft from none other than Toni Morrison and Joyce Carol Oates, and has worked as a journalist, screenwriter, comedy writer as well as a fiction and nonfiction author. In his travels from Princeton to HBO to the sewers of London (really!) Jacob has learned the art of the pivot as well as the secret to finding joy in just about every kind of writing project. His newest book is How to Remember Everything: Tips & Tricks to Becoming a Memory Master and Jess, the worst number rememberer on the planet, can attest that the memory tricks on pages 64-67 are brilliant and work beautifully.

Links from the pod

Jacob’s webpage

The Hyacinth Series

How to Remember Everything

#AmReading

Jess: The Mission: How a Disciple of Carl Sagan, an Ex-Motocross Race, a Texas Tea Party Congressman, the Worlds Worst Typewriter Saleswoman, California Mountain People, and an Anonymous NASA Functionary Went to War with Mars, Survived an Insurgency at Saturn, Traded Blows with Washington, and Stole a Ride on an Alabama Moon Rocket to Send a Space Robot to Jupiter in Search of the Second Garden of Eden at the Bottom of an Alien Ocean Inside of an Ice World Called Europa by David W. Brown

Jacob: All the Beverly Cleary. And by all of it, he means all of it.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 246: Historical #Fiction the Only Way I Know How with Beverly Jenkins Jan 15, 2021

Beverly Jenkins is best-selling, award-winning, and still having fun with all she does—in other words, all the things we writers aspire to when we sit down at the desk. But when she first got started, she “didn’t have a clue”—and that might have freed her to do exactly what she wanted to do.

We talk keeping history accurate but still making it entertaining, the joy of placing characters in a particular moment in time, bookshelf placement (“African American Literature”? “Men’s Health”?) and the pleasures of changing up your process for every new book.

Am Reading

Beverly: Shadows in Death by J.D. Robb

Battle Ground by Jim Butcher

Black Sun by Rebecca Roanhorse

The Blood Heir by Ilona Andrews “If I could only have one author for the whole rest of my life it would be Ilona Andrews.”

Sarina:

My Last Duchess by Eloisa James

Dark Witch by Nora Roberts

KJ: Wandering in Strange Lands by Morgan Jerkins

Wild Rain by Beverly Jenkins

Beverly thought KJ definitely needed to watch the Love Between the Cover documentary

KJ’s Brain Fart: While J.D. Robb is and always will be the great Nora Roberts, I have been enjoying the Writers, Ink podcast with J. Thorn and J.D. Barker lately. Barker writes thrillers, most recently with James Patterson.

Our guest today LOVES TWITTER. Find her there in “Romancelandia” at authorMsBev

And she hangs out on no less than three Facebook pages!

But somehow she’s still getting her work done. #jealous.

Hey readers! We can’t stop talking about our new sponsor The Great Courses. While Jess has been a fan for literally years, the rest of the #AmWriting crew are working to get caught up on all the great goodness they have to offer. You can find out more about them at https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/amwriting.

And - as we move into 2021 working towards achieving new goals: if you find yourself asking ‘Is this the year I launch my own book coaching business?’, you know we cannot recommend Author Accelerator enough! Their book coaching course is everything you need to get started. Find out more at bookcoaches.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 245: #Pitching with Passion with Lisa Levenstein Jan 08, 2021

Hey kids, we’re getting back to basics this week with a down-n-dirty episode on pitching, focused on opinion pages everywhere. We’re talking to Lisa Levenstein, an academic, historian and feminist (and the Director of the Women’s, Gender, and Sexuality Studies Program and Associate Professor of History at the University of North Carolina Greensboro) with two books under her belt: A Movement Without Marches: African American Women and the Politics of Poverty in Postwar Philadelphia and They Didn’t See Us Coming: The Hidden History of Feminism in the Nineties. Lisa took that expertise and those books and turned them into a growing career writing passionate freelance pieces of a kind that really appeal to editors—blending current issues with her special historic perspective on women’s issues.

We talked about everything from subject lines to finding your topic to using one piece as a steppingstone to break into another market, and it was fabulous. Enjoy!

Links from the pod

Lisa’s piece on child care in WashPo.

Lisa herself

#AmReading

Lisa: Big Friendship How We Keep Each Other Close by Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Sarina: What Happens In Paradise by Elin Hilderbrand

KJ: The Unlikely Adventures of the Shergill Sisters by Balli Kaur Jaswal

Have you checked out our new sponsor? Thanks to The Great Courses for coming on board. Jess has been a fan for literally years, while Sarina and KJ are planning to catch up. Find out more at https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/amwriting.

And—is this the year you launch your own book coaching business? You know how much we love Author Accelerator, and their book coaching course is everything you need to get started. Find out more at bookcoaches.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 244: Setting Writer #Goals for 2021 Jan 01, 2021

Last year’s words: Abundance. Practice. Magic. This year? Generous, Organize, Flow. It’s only now, writing these shownotes, that I see a pretty pattern… which is more that one of us chooses words she wants to embody, one chooses words she wants to shape her actions and the other seems to be counting on the muse in what may be a dubious way. Who’s who? It might surprise you.

Welcome to our 2020 year in review/2021 goals episode. We’d love to hear your plans for the year—and how last year went. Come visit us on Facebook and share!

#AmReading / #AmListening

Jess: Come Out Come Out podcast

Scent of the Missing: Love and Partnership with a Search-And-Rescue Dog by Susannah Charleson

KJ: Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know by Alexandra Horowitz

Better than Before by Gretchen Rubin

Deep Work by Cal Newport

Niksen: Embracing the Dutch Art of Doing Nothing by Olga Mecking

Frontier Follies by Ree Drummond

Sarina: The Search by Nora Roberts

The Shepherd, the Angel, and Walter the Christmas Miracle Dog by Dave Barry (Out of Print)

Blindsided by Victoria Denault from Sarina’s new imprint Heart Eyes Press

We’ve got a new sponsor! Thanks to The Great Courses for coming on board. Jess has been a fan for literally years, while Sarina and KJ are planning to catch up. Find out more at https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 243: #Fact-based Fiction and Fiction from Facts with Mark Olshaker Dec 25, 2020

A little #AmWriting behind the scenes: as we headed into this recording, Jess texted KJ:

Here’s the lowdown on Mark: I have been a fan of Mark Olshaker’s writing since I first encountered it in 1995. He may be best known for his work with former FBI Special Agent John Douglas, his writing partner since 1995, who pioneered the behavioral crimes unit at the FBI and inspired the Jack Crawford character in Silence of the Lambs. Together they have written many books including Mindhunter, about the role of behavioral profiling in catching violent criminals. His work with Douglas has landed him on the bestseller lists, but he has also written five novels and his nonfiction and documentary work covers subjects as wide-ranging emerging infectious disease, forensic emergency medicine, bioterror, the Lindburgh baby, and victims’ rights. He is also an Emmy-award winning filmmaker, as if that’s not enough AND, in a topic near and dear to my heart, he wrote, produced, and directed the film Discovering Hamlet, about one of my favorite productions of Hamlet directed by Dereck Jacobi and starring Kenneth Branagh. He follows Branagh and Jacobi from first read-throughs to opening night in 1988 and it’s now my life goal to see this film. Mark began his career as a journalist for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, the Wall Street Journal, NYT, WaPo, and USA Today and I am SO very excited to talk with him today!

The result was every bit as fun as you’d imagine. We talked about finding the real story behind Silence of the Lambs, the “other kinds of detectives”—epidemiologists—and drawing a story based on taking a fact and running with it. Mark quotes Tom Clancy: “The difference between fiction and non-fiction is that fiction has to make sense.” Plus, our guest eviscerates Henry James.

Links from the pod:

Mind of a Killer PBS episode.

The Killer’s Shadow and The Killer Across the Table

MindhuntersInc.com

#AmReading

Mark’s favorite crime fiction: George Pelecanos, Laura Lippman, Ian McEwan

Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy

War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy

Dr. Zhivago by Boris Pasternak

Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky

The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky

All the King’s Men by Robert Penn Warren

KJ: Plain Bad Heroines Emily M. Danforth

Jess: Writings on an Ethical Life by Peter Singer

The Other Bennet Sister by Janice Hadlow

Great Books by David Denby

As we say every week—we’re so proud to be sponsored by Author Accelerator and Dabble. If you’re wondering—why Dabble and not Scrivener? For us, it’s that plotting tool and the intuitive way it works, but others have weighed in—check that out here with a little Dabble v. Scrivener scoop.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 242 Finding All the Voices: Writing Reflective #Nonfiction with Julie Lythcott-Haims Dec 18, 2020

Writing nonfiction outside the memoir space usually means finding sources and stories that are not your own. Narrative, self-help, history, economics, social sciences, nature—no matter what your topic, this form of writing requires reporting, just as many freelance assignments do. So where do you go when you’re looking for sources? Often, your own backyard—and for lots of us, that can mean we inadvertently only talk to people who share our perspective, and sometimes our privilege.

Nobody knows that better than Julie Lythcott-Haims. For all her books, and most particularly for her latest, Julie has made it a point to draw from sources that reflect the diversity of our larger national experience. We talked about finding those sources, owning the need to seek out specific points of view and how you know when you’ve got it right.

Links from the Pod

Ed Yong’s article in the Atlantic about what he’s learned as he’s worked to diversify his sources: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/i-spent-two-years-trying-to-fix-the-gender-imbalance-in-my-stories/552404/

Adrienne LaFrance on gender bias in her own reporting: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/02/gender-diversity-journalism/463023/

Our Minisode on diversity in sources for non-fiction work, from light-hearted articles on favorite baby food flavors to seriously researched pieces for high-profile outlets. BIPOC, non-binary and women are outweighed by white men when it comes to who gets quoted in the news, whether the voice is adding an expert perspective or just a little local color. In it, we suggest the following:

SheSource

Informed Voices

NPR’s Source of the Week and how to use it.

Columbia University’s list of female, non-binary and BIPOC experts on the media

HARO

#AmReading

Julie: The Three Mothers: How the Mothers of Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, and James Baldwin Shaped a Nation by Anna Malaika Tubbs

Jess: Conscience: The Origins of Moral Intuition by Patricia Churchland

KJ: Plain Bad Heroines by Emily M. Danforth

Sarina and KJ have news!

The Chicken Sisters is out tomorrow, 12/1. Today’s the last day to pre-order! Signed copies here, Bookshop.org here, Amazon here—and if you order from your local indie and fill out this form, I’ll mail you a signed bookplate.

Sarina's novel Bittersweet, the first in her USA Today bestselling series, is currently free at all vendors. Farmers make the Earth move. Amazon: https://geni.us/FreeBittersweet

Apple: http://geni.us/BsIbooks

B&N: http://geni.us/bsbreach

Kobo: http://geni.us/bskreach

Google: http://geni.us/bsgreach

Book-gift shopping? Grab KJ’s 12 Days of Books to Give (and Get) list here for everything you need for your Austen-loving brother, your thriller-hound mom and the friend who craves a cozy escape.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 241: Big #Booklaunch Day Dec 11, 2020

Whew! This week, Sarina and KJ (that’s me writing as it usually is) both launched books—Sarina came out with Loverboy, second in KJ’d favorite Sarina series, The Company, while KJ FINALLY and after many many months got to see The Chicken Sisters come out into the world. Notice the different verbs there? That’s because our launches come from very different places, and we talk about that—as well as, of course, ALL the Reese Witherspoon Book Club backstory.

You can grab a copy of Loverboy in all kinds of ways:

🗝️ Audio https://geni.us/Audio-LB

🗝️ Amazon https://geni.us/Amazon-LB

🗝️ Apple https://geni.us/Apple-LB

🗝️ Kobo https://geni.us/Kobo-Lb

🗝️ Nook https://geni.us/Nook-LB

🗝️ Google https://geni.us/Google-LB

And there are a bunch of ways to buy The Chicken Sisters. There’s YOUR Indie bookstore--and if you buy it there and fill out this linked Google doc, I'll mail you a signed bookplate for it.

There's The Norwich Bookstore, which has signed actual copies.

There's MY Indie: Still North Books.

There's Bookshop.org.

There's Amazon.

There's Barnes and Noble.

Links to the memoirs KJ mentioned:

White Walls: A Memoir About Motherhood, Daughterhood and the Mess in Between, Judy Batalion

Year of No Clutter: A Memoir, Eve Schaub

Slow: Simple Living for a Frantic World, Brooke McAlary

Chasing Slow: Courage to Journey off the Beaten Path, Erin Loechner

#AmReading

Jess: Distress Signals by Catherine Ryan Howard

The Liar’s Girl by Catherine Ryan Howard

Sarina: Winter Street, Winter Stroll, Winter Storms, Winter Solstice by Elin Hildebrand

KJ: Plain Bad Heroines by Emily M. Danforth

Thanks for listening! As a heads up if you’re book-gift shopping make sure you grab KJ’s 12 Days of Books to Give (and Get) list here for everything you need for your Austen-loving brother, your thriller-hound mom and the friend who craves a cozy escape.

And did you know supporters of the #AmWriting podcast get a little something extra weekly? Whether it’s a Writer Top Five like Emails to Send During Your Book Launch, a #Minisode like Novel in #Process Part 1: Finding an Idea, or one of our new product reviews and other things we’re inspired to share, bonus stuff is ALWAYS dropping into their inboxes and pod-players. To get more #AmWriting for just a few bucks a month, click the button.

And we love our sponsors! Check out Dabble Writing Software if you haven’t already, and visit BookCoaches.com/amwriting to learn more about Author Accelerator’s amazing book coach training (hello, holiday gift that keeps on giving) or for their free book coach matching service.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 240 #Editing for the Best Version of Your Vision with Tiffany Yates Martin Dec 04, 2020

Who wouldn’t want a step-by-step process for revision? In her bookIntuitive Editing, this week’s guest, developmental editor Tiffany Yates Martin, lays out an approach that will help keep you organized, although sadly there is no magic wand involved. We talked to her about the big picture questions she asks before diving into someone else’s work:

Is the main story question clear?

Do the characters drive the story?

Do we/the characters end up somewhere different than where we began?

Where does the momentum flag (because it will, somewhere) and why?

Then we deep dive into questions of finding objectivity in your own work, micro-suspense, suspense vs. tension, writing manuals and—most important of all—how important it is to know that all first drafts are terrible and revision is part of the work.

A few links from the pod

If You Want to Write by Brenda Ueland

How to Grow a Novel by Sol Stein

Stein on Writing by Sol Stein

*FREE* Editorial Summit - December 6th

#AmReading

Tiffany: Such a Fun Age by Kiley Reid

Dear Edward by Ann Napolitano

The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett

KJ: Ties that Tether by Jane Igharo

Sarina: Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell

Sarina and KJ have news!

The Chicken Sisters is out! Signed copies here, Bookshop.org here, Amazon here—and if you order from your local indie and fill out this form, I’ll mail you a signed bookplate.

Sarina's novel Bittersweet, the first in her USA Today bestselling series, is currently free at all vendors. Farmers make the Earth move. Amazon: https://geni.us/FreeBittersweet

Apple: http://geni.us/BsIbooks

B&N: http://geni.us/bsbreach

Kobo: http://geni.us/bskreach

Google: http://geni.us/bsgreach

Book-gift shopping? Grab KJ’s 12 Days of Books to Give (and Get) list here for everything you need for your Austen-loving brother, your thriller-hound mom and the friend who craves a cozy escape.

Did you know supporters of the #AmWriting podcast get a little something extra weekly? Whether it’s a Writer Top Five likeEmails to Send During Your Book Launch, a #Minisode like Should I Hire a Publicist?, or one of our new product reviews and other things we’re inspired to share, bonus stuff is ALWAYS dropping into their inboxes and pod-players. To get more #AmWriting for just a few bucks a month, click the button.

And have you checked out our sponsors? If listening to Tiffany makes you think, that is my total dream job, you need to head to bookcoaches.com/amwriting to learn more about the side gig that could supply much-needed consistency to your writing income or become your full-time passion.

And have you tried Dabble writing software yet? If you’ve been thinking about testing out a tool to go beyond the ordinary word processor and make your work easier, this is the one we recommend. We invited Dabble to sponsor the podcast because, in short, it’s awesome. It’s easy to use, it works offline and on, it’s always synced up and always available on all the platforms and it makes finding your way around in your manuscript easy and even fun—and it’s designed to minimize distractions and keep you going. Find out more, and do a free trial, at dabblewriter.com.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

BONUS EPISODE--Shiny Thing Syndrome: KJ & Jennie Nash discuss career goals, side gigs and distractions Nov 30, 2020

Gang, it’s a #AmWriting Bonus episode that I think you’re going to love: Shiny Thing Syndrome. Jennie Nash and I I originally planned to get together to discuss whether I (it’s KJ here) might want to do some book coaching in 2021, but we ended up talking way more broadly about finding your why, career priorities, money and passion and fame and all the reasons we think we want to do something versus the good reasons for actually doing it (or not).

This first aired as a Facebook Live conversation (and you can find the video in the #AmWriting Facebook group if you’re interested), so you’ll miss the usual intros and the voices of Sarina and Jess, and you will get some waffling around with the tech at the beginning at about minute 50, when Jennie’s video dropped. But we pulled it back together, and it’s a great conversation for those of us who always finding ourselves with more ideas and excitement than time and energy. Hope you enjoy it.

Sarina and KJ have news!

Sarina's novel Bittersweet, the first in her USA Today bestselling series, is currently free at all vendors. Farmers make the Earth move. Amazon: https://geni.us/FreeBittersweet

Apple: http://geni.us/BsIbooks

B&N: http://geni.us/bsbreach

Kobo: http://geni.us/bskreach

Google: http://geni.us/bsgreach

Book-gift shopping? Grab KJ’s 12 Days of Books to Give (and Get) list here for everything you need for your Austen-loving brother, your thriller-hound mom and the friend who craves a cozy escape.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 239 #Writer Gift Extravaganza Nov 27, 2020

It’s the gifts episode! Here are the links you’re looking for:

KJ:

Redbubble ❄️ Stamp blocks ❄️ Stamp blanks and stencils ❄️ Frixion Pens ❄️ Leuchterm planner

Jess:

Sarina:

Hedgehog Pencil Holder ❄️ Post-its that fit over planner months ❄️ Corkicle (it doesn’t come with the sticker, sorry… but actually I (KJ) have extras and if you asked me I could probably mail you one if I don’t get too many asks! Just reply to this email and I will see it.)

#AmReading

Jess: Scarcity: The New Science of Having Less and How It Defines Our Lives by Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir

KJ: The Other Bennet Sister by Janice Hadlow

Sarina: The Girl with Stars in Her Eyes by Xio Axelrod

Zowie! Thanks for listening. If you want to check out our last gift episodes (and guides), click the years: 2019 2018 2017.

If you’ve got other ideas we should know about, share them in the #AmWriting Facebook group.

And if you’d like to subscribe to the shownotes email or support the podcast, click the button.

To give a subscription as a gift, click THIS button!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 238 Turning #Romance on Its Head with Lyssa Kay Adams Nov 20, 2020

Every writer craves that high concept idea that leads to the breakout book, or in this case breakout series. For Lyssa Kay Adams, it came from that joke women often make about wishing their male partners read romance—and a moment in 2016 when she “just wanted to live in a world full of men who get it.” She created The Bromance Book Club, about a group of men who read romance to understand their relationships and their partners. That became her first novel, quickly followed by Undercover Bromance and Crazy Stupid Bromance, and we three have read and loved them all. We talk indie v. trad, breaking out, building a series, writing diverse worlds and more.

Links from the Pod

Jason Rogers’ Men’s Health article

Heated Rivalry by Rachel Reid

Kobo Libra

Overdrive

#AmReading

Lyssa: Just a Heartbeat Away by Cara Bastone

Snapped by Alexa Martin

Sarina: Again the Magic by Lisa Kleypas

Jess: The Bridge of San Luis Rey by Thornton Wilder

Crazy Stupid Bromance

KJ: Ties That Tether by Jane Igharo

All Stirred Up by Brianne Moore

Speaking of romance, we love you, our listeners. Our sponsorships pay for the production and hosting of the podcast, but you support the time and work we put into being there for you every week, both by following us, reviewing the pod and keeping in touch, and with your financial contributions. #AmWriting supporters get a weekly bonus in the form of a minisode, a Writer Top Five or a little backstage burst of whatever the three of us are talking about that week (like Sarina’s new product review plans. Want in on that? Click here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 237: #Reporting from the Economic Trenches with Lauren Sandler Nov 13, 2020

It’s a new #AmWriting episode!

There’s a style of creative nonfiction in which a gifted writer tells someone else’s story. The story of a house being built, or a life in the wilderness—or, in the case of Lauren Sandler, the story of a young single mother in search of housing during her first year of motherhood. Lauren’s subject—a smart, driven young woman caught up in the system because of her own history, and desperate for not just housing but an education, a career, and love and a life of her choosing—was unlikely to ever find a way to tell her own story without Lauren’s help.

“She chose me as much as I chose her,” says Lauren. We talk to Lauren about how that relationship was formed and how, although the act of observing something changes it, Lauren tried to let Camilla’s story unfold as though she weren’t there, even while her own daughter was demanding to know why they didn’t just let Camilla sleep on the couch. If you’re interested in long-form journalism, or just in the process of embedding yourself into someone else’s life, you’ll love this episode.

Links from the Pod:

Lauren’s latest book This Is All I Got: A New Mother's Search for Home

Find Lauren on her website: www.laurenosandler.com

#AmReading

Lauren: The Days of Abandonment by Elena Ferrante

The Lying Life of Adults by Elena Ferrante

KJ: The Book Charmer by Karen Hawkins

Jess: Goodnight Beautiful by Aimee Molloy

Thanks for letting us into your inbox. If you’ve got questions, comments, episode ideas, head to the #AmWriting Facebook group or email us at amwritingpodcast@gmail.com.

Want more #AmWriting? Support the podcast with just a click of the button below for less than $2 an episode, and get weekly Writer Top Fives like Top 5 Mindfulness Tricks For Better Writing Sessions or Minisodes like How an Editor Considers an Essay.

Have you checked out Author Accelerator’s Book Coach training at bookcoaches.com/amwriting? Seriously, if every time you hear us talk about book coaching, you think to yourself—hey, I could do that!—you should. They have great programs for fiction, non-fiction and making your side-gig full time—and they offer tuition help for BIPOC coaches as well—more info on that at bookcoaches.com/equity.

And if you haven’t tried Dabble yet, YOU MUST. Just go play with the storyline building tools. Trust us.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 236 #Shipping Your Creative Work with Seth Godin (Take Two) Nov 06, 2020

MADNESS! We don’t know how, but somehow this went live without audio at midnight. So here it is again for you subscribers, with —the actual podcast episode.

We don’t have a lot of repeat guests, but Seth Godin can come on the podcast any time he wants. Seth is a fountain of wisdom about writing, pitching, selling, and building your audience, and his new book, The Practice: Shipping Creative Work, is a great addition to his (substantial) body of work.

Seth Godin is not only the master of the short pithy book of helpful advice, he’s the master of dishing out that advice straight from his brain to yours, as well. He does not have to stop and re-frame. He does not meander about his point. Not one bit. He’s a fountain of quick sentences that wallop you upside the head with their truth and clarity and demand to be written down. Here are just a few from this interview, which you won’t want to miss:

“Process saves us from the poverty of our intentions"

“There is never enough reassurance from outsiders”

“Don’t let your audience expect another greatest hits album every time”

“Be the boss of the process”

“Creativity is an act of leadership”

Jess, Sarina and Seth talked about getting the work out there to your readers. That’s it. Shipping the work. Sure, we also talked about how it gets done because we always do (and Seth reveals Isaac Asimov’s advice for getting 400 books written) but in the end, the work has to end up with your readers.

We did not talk books this week because we were on a tight schedule and Seth had so much wisdom to share, we skipped it. However, Seth recommended the documentary Double Take about the sculptor Elizabeth King, who is quoted in The Practice: “Process saves us from the poverty of our intentions.”

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here and don’t forget our sponsors and partners, Author Accelerator’s Book Coach training at bookcoaches.com/amwriting and DabbleWritingSoftware. They’re hand-picked because we LIKE them. So check them out.

Finally—KJ here—Obviously, with The Chicken Sisters coming out in December, book marketing has been on my mind.

One thing I learned in the last go-round when How to Be a Happier Parent came out is that it’s a bad idea to do it alone. There’s no way I could have done the whole launch by myself and you know, still had all my faculties intact.

One piece of help I got was taking a course called How to Launch a Bestseller from Tim Grahl, a book marketing phenom who’s had dozens of clients on the bestseller list. He pushes my buttons a little—because no matter what anyone says, you CANNOT make a bestseller yourself and to believe you can is to set yourself up for failure—but his advice is solid.

Another piece of help I got was from Sue Campbell, a book launch coach who helped me execute some of the monster-sized launch plan I put together based on Tim’s course. We had fun together and did some really fun things, like a quiz (find your parenting mantra).

Sue was actually personally trained by Tim and now she’s launching a really cool thing.

It’s a monthly membership that will give authors the resources they need to build an audience and the opportunity to pick Sue’s brain on a weekly basis.

Basically, Sue’s the perfect person to help you set and reach your goals for your author career.

Membership in the club includes:

* Direct access to Sue Campbell, Book Launch Certified Coach and her team at Pages & Platforms team at a fraction of the cost to hire them privately.

* Mindset coaching to help you break through your marketing block and find your “clean selling” approach.

* Help with goal setting and attainment.

* Specialized coaching and workshops to get the knowledge and skills you need to market well and avoid wasting time and money.

* 24/7 access to a community of fellow authors.

* Access to special expert guests from time to time, including Tim Grahl.

Another big benefit: this club is a flexible way to get marketing help when you need it. There’s no long-term commitment.

And she’s offering a free-month trial right now. There are live calls every Friday at 1 p.m. Pacific time/4 p.m. Eastern.

I know for myself, having a community of like-minded people helps me make huge progress. (Heck, that’s what the #amwriting podcast and Facebook group is all about!)

I highly recommend you give Sue’s Your Next 9000 Copies club a try. I’ll be there too. And this is, as you’ve probably guessed, an affiliate link for the #AmWritingPodcast, so use it and you support us too. But I wouldn’t recommend Sue if I didn’t believe in her.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 235: Writer #Tech We Love Oct 30, 2020

Campers, this week we’re talking about a topic near and dear to all our hearts, but most particularly Sarina, whose productivity levels are epic and who is always looking for something that will help her ramp up. We talk hardware and software that makes the writing process easier, or at least more varied; handwriting-to-text, voice-to-text, AI, editing software, citation software and throw in a few other ideas for good measure. Links to everything we discuss are below.

Post-It App: Capture

Dragon Naturally Speaking

#AmReading

Jess: The Bad-Ass Librarians of Timbuktu and Their Race to Save the World's Most Precious Manuscripts by Joshua Hammer

KJ: His Only Wife by Peace Adzo Medie

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially—we hope you’ve been loving recent treats like the Minisodes from Jess: What Really Sells Books and KJ: Why I Love Plotting Books (and which to grab) and the Top 5 Things to Know About Using a Pseudonym. To join that team, click the button below (we’re kinda having a fall sale!):

But it’s all good. The pod is free as it always has and always will be. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it every time there’s a new episode.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here and don’t forget our sponsors and partners!

If you’re getting into NaNoWriMo this year, head over to the #AmWriting Facebook group to find your fellow-listener-lunatics—and consider trying out Dabble Writing software, which was specifically designed for plotting and writing fiction. Dabble is extending its free trial throughout the months of October and November, so you can try it out without any fear of losing your work, and it’s easy to export everything you’ve done right out at the end if it’s not for you. But we think it will be! Find out more at dabblewriter.com.

And if what gets YOU salivating is the prospect of helping writers turn all those rough NaNo drafts into something that’s ready for their next level, , you should check out bookcoaches.com/amwriting, where our sponsor, Author Accelerator, offers the training you need to turn your passion for stories into a full-blown side gig or business. You’ll find all the info, as well as a free video series to help you decide if book coaching is right for you, at bookcoaches.com/amwriting.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 234: #Storybuilding with Jacob Wright from Dabble Writing Software Oct 23, 2020

Have you ever, while banging out a document of any kind in Word or Pages or whatever, thought to yourself “Dang, this would be so much easier if ______.” Every writer has been there, but only a few rare souls actually go on to “I am going to make something that does that, darn it.”

Jacob Wright is that rare soul. Once upon a time, while drafting his own experiments in fiction, he pitched Scrivener on a mobile version, and when they declared themselves content with who and what they were, he set out to build it on his own—a simpler software specifically designed for story.

#AmReading

Jacob: Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson

KJ: The Queen of the Night by Alexander Chee

Sarina: Crazy Stupid Bromance by Lyssa Kay Adams

Y’all, Dabble is free for all of October and November to anyone who wants to hook it up to a NaNoWriMo account and use it to plot and then draft your November 2020 magnum opus. (And there’s always a free 14-day trial, year-round.)

And to help you get that plot right, we strongly suggest you check out the free writing challenge at Author Accelerator. When you sign up for the challenge, you will receive seven assignments targeted at defining what your book is about. Throughout the week, you will...

* Define why you are writing this book

* Discover the point of your story

* Develop your book jacket copy

* Describe your book in one killer sentence

* Brainstorm and select your book’s working title

* Start writing your book with our Two-Tier Outline workbook (for fiction)

* Swear you’ll be way ahead in the NaNoWriMo game.

Or if what you hope for is to help other people get their NaNo drafts ready for the big time, check out Author Accelerator’s Book Coaching courses to learn more.

Want more #AmWriting? Support the podcast with just a click of the “subscribe” button below for less than $2 an episode, and get weekly Writer Top Fives like Top 5 Mindfulness Tricks For Better Writing Sessions or #Minisodes like How an Editor Considers an Essay.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 233: #TruthsAndMisdemeanors, Lacy Crawford on the gauntlet of legal & fact-checking Oct 16, 2020

When I (Jess here) interviewed Lacy Crawford about her new memoir Notes on a Silencing, we discussed the complex and often contradictory goals of publishers’ legal departments and fact checkers at periodicals such as Condé Nast/Vanity Fair, where Lacy’s first serial excerpt was published. An article on nonfiction book fact checking (or the lack thereof) published in Esquire (by Emma Copley Eisenberg) made the rounds online in August, and many readers were surprised to discover that publishers don’t fact check the books they publish. In fact, a standard clause in nonfiction book contracts indemnifies the publisher when it comes to the author’s factual errors. What publishers do, however, is send the manuscript over to their legal departments to ensure they will not be held liable for defamation, an risk most authors mitigate by changing names or identifying details of some people in the book. Lacy explains how the goals of the legal department and the goals of fact checking are often at cross-purposes, and we come up with a few things authors should think about when selecting a excerpts for publications that will rigorously fact check.

Find Lacy Crawford:

On her website: www.lacycrawford.com

On Twitter: @lacy_crawford

We had so much to discuss we skipped #AmReading, but Lacy’s first book, Early Decision, was a delight. It’s a satire about the high-stakes, high-stress process of college admission.

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast with $$$ on top of all the love and ears. To join that team, click the button below:

Because we do things for our supporters! Like weekly Minisodes When There's No Muse, Keep Going and Top Fives like Top 5 Ways to Prep for NaNoWriMo. And we are working on supporter-only discussions that we expect to be killer. So come on in, the water’s fine.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here and don’t forget our sponsors and partners!

Have you checked out Author Accelerator’s Book Coach training at bookcoaches.com/amwriting? Seriously, I am in for this (this is KJ). I’ve discovered I love helping people with their fiction just like I liked editing for the NYT, but I want to know what I’m doing before I start. So look for me at a training session near you, and check it out. They have great programs for fiction, non-fiction and making your side-gig full time—and they offer tuition help for BIPOC coaches as well—more info on that at bookcoaches.com/equity.

And if you haven’t tried Dabble yet, YOU MUST. It has replaced Scrivener in our hearts in part because it’s so much easier to use—and in part because we love the way it plots. Free trials for everyone, no need to remember a code, just go here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 232 Smart, #Versatile and Writing all the Things with Morgan Jerkins Oct 09, 2020

A book of essays. A memoir that’s truly a family history and an American history. And—soon—a novel. Morgan Jerkins talks starting a writing career as a millennial, the privileges necessary to survive (financially) in New York City while pursuing a writing career and fighting the urge to let other people decide whether to take your work seriously.

We cover so much ground in this interview, from #publishingpaidme to interviewing skills to figuring out how much of your self belongs in your work, that we barely even grazed the surface of how much Morgan’s current book, Wandering in Strange Lands: A Daughter of the Great Migration Reclaims Her Roots, taught her—and teaches the reader—about Black American history and how hidden it still remains from most of us of any heritage. If you enjoyed Isabel Wilkerson’s The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration or Caste, you’ll love Wandering—and even if you didn’t, if you’re a fan of memoir, interested in family history and legend or are just a product of the typical white-centric education in American history and wish you knew more about the many other sides of the story, grab it.

Find Morgan Jerkins:

On her website: www.morgan-jerkins.com

and on Twitter: @MorganJerkins

#AmReading

Morgan: Girl, Woman, Other: A Novel by Bernardine Evaristo

Temporary by Hilary Leichter

Severance by Ling Ma

Pachinko by Min Jin Lee

KJ: Transcendent Kingdom by Yaa Gyasi

Sarina: Uncanny Valley: A Memoir by Anna Wiener

Unspeakable Acts: True Tales of Crime, Murder, Deceit, and Obsession by Sarah Weinman

We talk a LOT about money in this episode—huge thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. We hope you’re enjoying supporter-only Minisodes like When There's No Muse, Keep Going and Writer Top 5s like Top 5 Tips to Getting a Great Interview. To join that team, click the button below:

But that doesn’t have to be you! The pod is free as it always has and always will be. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it every time there’s a new episode.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here and don’t forget our sponsors and partners!

And if you haven’t tried Dabble yet, YOU MUST. Just go play with the storyline building tools. Trust us.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Minisode: When There's No Muse, Keep Going Oct 05, 2020

It’s KJ, and I don’t know about you, but I’ve noticed that about 99 percent of the time when I sit down at my laptop, I seem to be doing it solo. Where is this muse of which other writers speak?

Sure, I often get in the flow. I can click merrily along at the keys—but inevitably, I hit a spot where the flow jams up in my brain and I don’t know what’s next and I really, really just want to get up and go get a nice cookie. This Minisode is me talking about how I keep going (for 50 minutes).

How to listen: if you’ve listened to any previous MiniSodes, this one should already BE in your podcast feed. If not, click on the link to listen and you’ll find yourself at amwriting.substack.com. You COULD listen there, but we’re guessing you’d rather get all subscriber episodes, from now on, in your usual podcast-listening app. It’s easy, and you only have to do it once to get every #Minisode from now on right where you want it.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 231: #FindYourReaders with Dara Kurtz Oct 02, 2020

It’s an age-old question: how do you build a platform big enough so publishers take notice? This week we interview Dara Kurtz, author of one self-published book and one traditionally published book. She shares her considerable, deliberate efforts to build her online readership for her site, Crazy Perfect Life, and translate fans of her website and Facebook group content into purchasers for her second book, I am My Mother’s Daughter. Buckle up and dust off your spreadsheet skills, because this woman loves data.

You can find out more about Dara on her website and on her podcast, Thrive.

#AmReading

Dara: She’s re-reading her own book, which is helpful for doing media around publication, as well as The Untethered Soul by Michael A. Singer

Jess: This is All I Got: A New Mother’s Search for Home by Lauren Sandler and A Beautiful Work in Progress by Mirna Valerio

KJ: The Beauty in Breaking by Michele Harper

Thanks so much for listening! Just a reminder that our #AmWriting supporters get #BonusEmails every Monday like our Minisode: When There's No Muse, Keep Going which will be going out on Monday, October 5th. It's our thank-you for helping support the podcast you love for only $7 a month. Click the upgrade button to find out more!

As always, this episode (and every episode) will appear for all subscribers in your usual podcast listening places, totally free as the #AmWriting Podcast has always been. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it with the shownotes every time there’s a new episode.

To support the podcast and help it stay free, subscribe to our weekly #WritersTopFive email.

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwriting for details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 230: So You Wanna Be a #Bookcoach with Jennie Nash Sep 25, 2020

It’s—a podcast episode! With Jennie Nash, so you already know you’re going to love it and I don’t need to say any more. Sarina and I had a great time talking nitty gritty book coaching details with Jennie from a different perspective—what if you want to BE a book coach?

But don’t worry if that’s not of interest—this episode will still inspire you to take a professional approach to your work, whatever it is, to think about money and value differently and find some changes that will help you wherever you are and whatever you’re working on.

As for book coaching—I (this is KJ) recently volunteered for the Women Fiction Writer’s Association’s fall pitch event, helping writers polish their 50 word pitches before they had a chance to pitch agents—and it was so much more satisfying than I thought it would be, for a lot of reasons. Helping people—yay. SO MUCH EASIER to see things in other people’s work than in your own, also true. And then there was the satisfaction of handing things back to the writers for them to work on. Like handing back a baby with a smelly diaper to its parent.

But I also just enjoyed the work a lot more than I thought I would. If you’ve had an experience like that, this is really the episode for you. Jennie talks about how valuable that work is, how we can come to understand it’s worth and feel good about charging for our services, why it’s good for everyone when this is done professionally and what it’s like to be a book coach, to have a book coach and to do that work right.

Links from the Pod:

Read Books All Day and Get Paid For It by Jennie Nash

Bookcoaches.com/amwriting

#AmReading:

Jennie: The Hate You Give – Angie Thomas

KJ: Queeny – Candice Carty-Williams

And don’t forget to check out Dabble Writing Software. If you’re following a bunch of twisty turny plot lines with the help of index cards or post it notes, Dabble is for you! Get a free trial at DabbleWriter.com

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 229 #Interviewing with NPR's Celeste Headlee Sep 18, 2020

It’s a madcap, free-ranging episode where we go from figuring out how to get your important work done (and quit doom-scrolling through your phone) to embracing that same phone for its best use: nourishing conversations with the people you love and then launch into some fantastic tips for interviewing experts (or podcast guests!) that you won’t want to miss.

Links from the pod and the scoop on our guest: Celeste Headlee is an NPR journalist and the author of three books:

Do Nothing

We Need to Talk

Heard Mentality

Celeste talks about the danger of working from home with Mary Elizabeth Williams on Salon.

You can find her at: CelesteHeadlee.com

#AmReading

Celeste: Studs Terkel’s Race helped me understand race (as a black jew) like never before

KJ: Motherland by Leah Franqui

Jess: Magical Thinking, Lust and Wonder, and Toil and Trouble by Augusten Borroughs

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here and don’t forget our sponsors and partners!

And if you haven’t tried Dabble yet, YOU MUST. Just go play with the storyline building tools. Trust us.

And—have you checked out the Bookable Podcast? Audio explorations of the books you might want to read next, with a host who’s a veteran of a much-loved, much-missed NYC live monthly book event.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 228 #Embedded with Jeff Selingo Sep 11, 2020

Not everybody wants an author hanging around their office all day.

Our guest is a best-selling education writer Jeff Selingo, already an expert on college and higher education who took that one step further for his latest: Who Gets In and Why: A Year Inside College Admissions. Jeff managed to embed himself in three admissions offices to write this book, a feat that will boggle the mind of anyone familiar with the industry (and it is an industry, make no mistake).

We talk pitching and selling the book, lining up the admissions offices and then dancing the delicate dance of writing honestly about people and places that have opened themselves up to your critical gaze, finding students to become part of your story and balancing the stories you tell—plus all the minutia of getting those stories, from consent forms to pseudonyms to not changing the outcomes by becoming part of the story.

#AmReading

Jeff: The Dry by Jane Harper

Jess: The Woods and Missing You, Harlan Coben

H is for Hawk by Helen MacDonald

KJ: Life Is In the Transitions by Bruce Feiler

Find Jeff at:

His Website: www.jeffselingo.com

On Twitter: www.twitter.com/jselingo

On Facebook: www.facebook.com/JeffSelingo

Via Instagram: www.instagram.com/jselingo

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here and don’t forget our sponsors and partners!

And if you haven’t tried Dabble yet, YOU MUST. Just go play with the storyline building tools. Trust us.

And—have you checked out the Bookable Podcast? Audio explorations of the books you might want to read next, with a host who’s a veteran of a much-loved, much-missed NYC live monthly book event.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 227 The Joy of #Self-Promotion: promoting yourself and your work Sep 04, 2020

It’s the topic every author seems to love to hate: self-promotion. Sharing our work on social media, pitching ourselves to podcasts and reaching out to friends and colleagues to ask them to boost us up in various ways can feel hard—but it shouldn’t. It’s part of the deal—and the people around you don’t mind. In fact, they want to know when you have a new book or article out, especially if you’re a regular and generous supporter of the good work the people around you are doing as well.

We talk about getting past the emotional hurdle here, and then we talk about the how best to get the job done—best practices for self-promotion and a lovely list of “Glamour Don’ts” for those who are worried about getting it wrong.

Links from the Podcast

sharelinkgenerator

#AmReading

Sarina: What Happens Next by Colleen Clayton

KJ: A Star is Bored by Byron Lane

Jess: The Overstory by Richard Powers

And if you haven’t tried Dabble yet, YOU MUST. Just go play with the storyline building tools. Trust us.

And—have you checked out the Bookable Podcast? Audio explorations of the books you might want to read next, with a host who’s a veteran of a much-loved, much-missed NYC live monthly book event.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 226 Writing #ownvoices while respecting others, with Lauren Ho Aug 28, 2020

Lauren Ho is the author of the debut novel Last Tang Standing, which is getting HUGE buzz. It’s been called Bridget Jones meets Crazy Rich Asians, and it does deliver on that promise. Lauren is our very first guest to join us from Singapore, and it’s very late at night there but she managed to hold her own. We talk lawyers-turned-writers, selling a book from outside the US and UK, Goodreads reviews and the challenges and advantages of writing characters (not necessarily POV characters, but still voices that have a place in your story) from perspectives that aren’t your own.

#AmReading

Lauren:

Sex and Vanity by Kevin Kwan

A Good Family by A.H. Kim

The White Coat Diaries by Madi Sinha

KJ:

Rodham by Curtis Sittenfeld

Jess:

Becoming Duchess Goldblatt (Anonymous)

Boyfriend Material by Alexis Hall

Find Lauren at:

Her Website: www.hellolaurenho.com

On Twitter: www.twitter.com/hellolaurenho

On Facebook: www.facebook.com/hellolaurenho

Via Instagram: www.instagram.com/hellolaurenho

Behind-the-scenes and only in the email this week:

KJ was a guest on the wonderful How Do You Write podcast with Rachael Herron, and truly had a blast and loved every minute of it and thinks you should listen to all the episodes (she does!).

Jess shared this video of pandas being pandas and caused Sarina and KJ to loose many minutes of work.

Lacy Crawford, whose book Notes on a Silencing has come up many times on the pod, got an apology from St. Paul’s, the private high school which covered up her rape and protected her rapists.

We appreciate you! We’re glad you get the shownotes every week, and if you’re also one of our gorgeous and wonderful supporters, you can expect a #Minisode on why KJ loves books about plotting fiction, which ones she adores and how she’s using them to drop into your podplayer Monday—and we’ve uploaded and categorized all of our previous Top 5s and Minisodes on our website, which means that if you want to explore advice on agents, or nonfiction, or marketing and promotion, you’ll find what you’re looking for right HERE.

And if you’d like to support the show, and get access to everything from our recent Top 5s (like business upgrades, tax tips and ways to hold yourself accountable to our Minisodes, like KJ on how an editor considers an essay, Sarina’s letter to her younger self and Jess on what really sells books, then click the button below to chip in! We’ve got a bit of a deal on this fall—a full year of support for just $56. That’s just a tiny bit over $1 an episode! Aren’t we worth it?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 225 Get #ComfortablewithWeird How visualization and imagery help writers connect with readers, with Julie Berry Aug 21, 2020

Our guest this week is children’s fiction and YA author Julie Berry, and here’s why: she gave a talk at a conference about visualizing and imagery that Sarina has “been thinking about for 7 years.” That should tell you how much gold there is in this episode—all kinds of useful stuff about how we use images and senses to spark our own creativity and build a connection with our readers in every genre. We think you’ll love it.

#AmReading

Julie: The Witch of Blackbird Pond by Elizabeth George Speare

Beauty by Robin McKinley

The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley

The Hero and the Crown by Robin McKinley

The Perilous Gard by Elizabeth Marie Pope

The Secret Life of Trees by Robin Blackwell

Black and British by David Olusoga

Staying Power by Peter Fryer

Sarina: Love Lettering by Kate Clayborn

KJ: Tiny Imperfections by Alli Frank & Asha Youmans

Find Julie at:

Her Website: www.julieberrybooks.com

On Twitter: www.twitter.com/julieberrybooks

On Facebook: www.facebook.com/julieberrybookspage

Via Instagram: www.instagram.com/julieberrybooks

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 224 From Mr. Rogers to #RealityTVJournalism with Andy Dehnart Aug 14, 2020

We’ve got a great interview for you today with a freelance journalist who does a different kind of work than any of us ever have—out in the field reporting on his favorite subject: reality adventure TV on trips rife with travel and danger and expense reports. I think you’ll love it.

We talk about finding your topic and making that topic, well, topical by looking for what’s happening within the world you’re covering that reflects what’s happening outside of it. We also discuss MFAs (he’s a fan), email (not so much) and how to keep from “opening your email and letting somebody else dictate what you do with your time.”

Links from the Podcast

fresh.ink

Longform on Twitter

#AmReading

Andy: Fates and Furies by Lauren Groff

The Secret History by Donna Tartt

Jess: The Summer of ‘69 by Elin Hilderbrand

The Book of Eels by Patrik Svensson

KJ: The Guest List Lucy Foley

#TBR: The Mountains Wild by Sarah Stewart Taylor

Find out more about our guest:

AndyDehnart.com Reality Blurred Andy’s newsletterFind Andy on TwitterSee Andy’s book recs on Bookshop

And if you love the podcast, have you considered kicking in some cash? Our sponsors cover our production costs, but our time is basically sponsored by you, our loyal listeners. If we’ve added a little value to your day or week or year, please consider supporting us. How? Click the button.

And if listening to all of our conversations about book coaching has made you think, hey—that’s the career for me—then you’ll want to head to Author Accelerator’s BookCoaches.com to see how you can make that happen. Or if listening to the promo this week made you wonder about book coach Kemlo Aki, find more about her here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 223: #MythBusting: We take a bunch of myths about writing and tear them all up and throw them away Aug 07, 2020

Write every day. Don’t read fiction while you’re writing fiction. My way or the highway. In a burst of frustration, we’re reminding ourselves—and you—that there’s no one way to get this job done, and if your way is counter to what some of the greats might tell you (we’re looking at you, Stephen King, even though we love you), that doesn’t mean it won’t work.

A few links from the episode:

Minisode: #AmQuerying: How to write a fiction query letter that makes an agent ask for more

Becca Syme: https://betterfasteracademy.com/beccasyme/

#AmReading

Sarina: Notes of Silencing by Lacy Crawford

Jess: Unacceptable by Melissa Korn & Jennifer Levitz

Unspeakable Acts by Sarah Weinman

KJ: Big Summer by Jennifer Weiner

The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett

Our amazing sponsors: Dabble Writing Software, which I can’t wait to use to line up all my scenes and plot points AS SOON AS I START FIGURING OUT WHAT THEY ARE and which you should absolutely try.

And Author Accelerator. Jennie Nash is doing a Facebook Live coaching of a memoir outline on August 14, 2020—that’s next week. I can’t wait, I love watching her do these. Sign up here, or just go learn more!

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:00

Writers, KJ here. Have you heard me talk about Dabble yet? I mean really listened. Dabble writing software is our new sponsor, and we love them. Sarina and I can't stop playing with the outline piece of it, which is every bit as flexible as a bunch of post it notes on your desk and a whole lot more portable. You can track everything that belongs within a scene, how that scene fits into multiple plot lines, and where that scene belongs in the book. And you can move it with the flick of a mouse. It's honestly a little too much fun. We don't want to encourage you to procrastinate, but getting your storyline right isn't procrastination. It's part of the work. So try out Dabble and let us know if it helps you get your work done by downloading a free trial at dabblewriter.com. Is it recording?

Jess Lahey 0:50

Now it's recording.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:52

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone and try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess Lahey 0:56

Alright, let's start over.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:58

Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. The podcast about writing all the things, fiction, nonfiction, short pieces, long pieces, entire books, be they small or long, pitches, proposals, and as I say every week, this is the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done or not, but trying. I am, as I've previously stated, KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of the novel The Chicken Sisters, which will be out in December of this year, which is 2020. I'm the former editor of the Motherlode blog at the New York Times where I still sometimes contribute and the author of How to Be a Happier Parent, which is out in paperback and available everywhere now.

And I'm Jess Lahey, the author of The Gift of Failure. And I have a new book coming out in April. I just finished the galley edits so it feels real, called The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my work right about now when this thing comes out in the Washington Post, but I write for lots of different places.

Sarina Bowen 2:19

And I'm Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of 35 romance novels. And you can always find more of me at Amazon Apple books and everywhere romances are sold.

So today's topic is kind of about keeping your head in the game.

Jess Lahey 3:06

It absolutely is. I'm optimistic. I'm going to go with the it is about keeping your head in the game. What is our topic for today, Sarina?

Sarina Bowen 3:14

It's myths about writing. All the things that we have absorbed over the years that may or may not be true. And myths come from a place of cultural reference. So these myths aren't out of left field, but we still want to examine them just to make sure we're taking the right advice.

Jess Lahey 3:36

Well, I think it's important to do that because some of these myths come from people. I mean, heck, if we took our oft cited David Sedaris advice about never, ever asking for anything, and that became sort of the way that writers were supposed to do things, then not a lot of writers would get stuff done. It happens to have worked beautifully for him. There are a couple of other authors that I'm going to cite while we're talking about some of these, and it can become the word of the writers. And it's not necessarily so because writing is different for different people.

Well, I think in particular, there is one myth that we really want to blow up today for all of our sakes. And that myth is the 'you must write every day'. Am I right?

It can be a goal.

And you know, I think we often make it sound like we do write every day. And we often do write every day. But I think what we don't talk about is that it is seasonal and cyclical. And that writing can sometimes mean other things.

Sarina Bowen 4:45

So I came up with the idea of myths, I mean, it entered my brain this weekend when I was listening to a talk by a writing coach named Becca Syme. And she was speaking at an event called Inkers Con that I was enjoying listening to. And she does some myth busting in hers but what she got to was that you have to examine the premise of these myths, like what premise are we accepting if we go along with it and KJ just said writers write every day and I would say that there's an even deeper premise to that one which is writers right because they must, and this one always makes me roll my eyes. Because I am definitely a writer. You know, my whole career is set up around this, but I have never once looked in the mirror and said, I'm a writer because I must, it's a compulsion for me. It's not it's actually my job and some days I just don't feel like doing it.

Jess Lahey 5:55

I think that for me, it's how I best express myself. I mean, I always would rather express myself in the written word than trying to explain something to someone orally. And that's just my preference for how I tend to make the best contribution. Do I have to write? In fact, if someone said I couldn't write for the rest of my life, I think I could be okay. I think I'd be fine. I may not be as well understood, but I think I would be fine. I'd have to make more phone calls. Oh my gosh, that would be the worst.

Sarina Bowen 6:33

You know, Jess, you just reminded me of that thing that happens at the very end of Spinal Tap the rockumentary. At the very end, when the credits are rolling, they asked each band member in turn, like, 'If you couldn't have rock and roll, how would you go on?' And the first one says something like, 'Well, but I'd still have the sex and drugs.' And then the last one is like, "Well, I could work in a shop.'

Jess Lahey 7:19

But yeah, I think that the whole I have to write or I will perish is along the lines of I couldn't live without you because I just don't think those are healthy ways to think about the world, but that's just me.

KJ Dell'Antonia 7:33

And you know, it is true that there are easier ways to make a living. So, you know, you probably aren't doing this unless you want to do it, but I feel like have to is awfully strong. So the you have to write every day...Stephen King, every day including Christmas, right? Or whatever your holiday of choice is, just every day, sit down every day. When I am working on something, I do write every day, generally including weekends. Sometimes I can't. Sometimes you're spending 12 hours taking a hike with your family. I guess what I'm trying to say is just you don't have to. It is possible to stop for a week or a couple of weeks, or I have somebody that I was reading said in between every book they spend like a month just gardening. I don't remember who it was. But yeah, when you're in the midst of something, writing everyday is a good way to keep your hand in, and make sure that you know where to start, and that you're still going, and that it's going fine. And especially if you have deadlines or goals. But when you're in between things, like I just turned in a manuscript and I don't know what's gonna happen with that manuscript, but because someone else has it, it's pencils down for me. And I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do next. But if I was writing 1000 words a day without knowing what I was going to do next, that would not be pretty.

Jess Lahey 9:59

I have to second your thing about writing every day when you're working on something because if I don't write every day when I'm working on something, I number one get lost. Like, I can't find where my brain was when and then it takes me like two hours to sort of get back into it. But I also feel like it gets stale for me a little bit. So when I'm working on something, I absolutely have to work on it every day. Sorry, Sarina, what were you gonna say?

Sarina Bowen 10:26

I was just gonna go one step worse than that, which is I get afraid of my own project.

Jess Lahey 10:31

Really? Interesting.

Sarina Bowen 10:33

Yeah, I develop a fear about it. That I won't like it as much when I go back and I won't want to continue. It's just a fear of the unknown.

Jess Lahey 10:44

It varies for me. There are times when even in mid-massive draft, serious know what I'm doing, have it all, sometimes you have to drive someone somewhere that's 12 hours away. But sometimes I make it an affirmative decision to just be like not today, this day gets a cross.

And I love those days.

KJ Dell'Antonia 11:37

And that's okay, too.

Jess Lahey 11:41

The week after I finished my manuscript and I went on vacation with my husband and my in-laws, it was so nice to say I am not writing this entire week and that can be incredibly freeing. And as it turns out, my brain had the space to think about other things and to sort of muse on other topics. And it was really, interestingly, a very productive week for me from a brain standpoint, but not at all from a writing standpoint, it was just so freeing.

But even mid project, sometimes there's just a day when you either can't or choose not to. And I don't find that that stalls me at all, it's fine. You know, that maybe shouldn't be every other day. But yeah, you don't have to write every day. So cross that one off.

I can relate to what Sarina said about getting afraid of things. Because I'm sure you've had this moment where you get that email about edits that need to be done and it feels so massive and unwieldy until you actually start and get into the document. And for me, my work always feels manageable when I'm in it, and it's only when I stop being in it that it starts to feel like something I can't even start. So for me it's a bit of self preservation to stay as in it as possible. Otherwise it gets out of my arms and it starts to feel like just something that's way too big. So it's definitely something I have to do for my own, just moving forward kind of thing.

Sarina Bowen 13:11

Okay, KJ, what else you got in the myth box?

Jess Lahey 13:14

Oh, well, my current favorite myth is you shouldn't read anything similar to what you're working on while you're working on it. When I was just getting started as a writer, I tried to follow that but it's just not what I have found to be true. First of all, whether I'm writing fiction or nonfiction, I find that reading things in the genre or something similar, it's not like I'm suddenly going to rewrite The Bromance Book Club by accident. I feel like it's helpful, because it can be very freeing to be reading along and see what another author has done. Or how they've transitioned, or to realize that, gosh, I really enjoyed that book. And I feel like the character's mother was a total force and presence, but I go back through and I count and she only appeared on the page four times. That's amazing. So I can do that. And sometimes if I'm stuck. I'll go and find the book where I know that an author has done something that I'm trying to do really, really well and either just reread it for inspiration or actually tear it apart. What do they do? What did they do here? What did they do there? Yes, dissection, our favorite thing. So I totally read in my genre when I'm writing. Regardless of what I'm writing.

Sarina Bowen 14:56

I tend not to, but also I work in a very tight corner of genre fiction. And so even though I might be reading a romance while I'm writing a romance, I like to work out of genre in my reading because I feel like I find the parallels more available to me there.

Jess Lahey 15:18

But you're still reading. I mean, a lot of people say, 'Well, when I'm writing fiction, I'm not reading fiction.' And I'm like, Whoa, that's big. And I've actually heard people say that, like that's a really big chunk to let go of.

Sarina Bowen 15:35

Right. Sometimes when I do read really tightly in my own genre, when I'm writing it makes the possibilities feel smaller, not larger, because I can see all the ways that we're all fishing in the same pond. Like they become more obvious to me even if the book isn't similar at all.

Jess Lahey 15:54

Well, and sometimes I just feel like you know, if I rewrite someone that has really knocked it out of the Sometimes it's just like, oh, that's the only possible way to do that. And now I feel small and lost. And as though I will never come up with anything as brilliant as that particular logline, or plot twist, or whatever. So there's that, but I'm not going to stop reading because of it.

I think I've said in the past that for nonfiction when I need a real hit of a voice that if I'm feeling a little bit not on top of my game, or I'm not feeling like an expert, if I go to a book where the expert voice is really, really strong it's kind of like it's like a rah-rah-rah kind of thing. It's like watching you know, a master musician right before you need to go on stage and be a master musician yourself. It's that sort of feeling of Okay, I can emulate that. It's sort of a fake it till you make it kind of thing. If I get this boost, then I can sort of feel like I'm ready and up to the task. So that for me is an important part. It's not that I'm reading the whole book, it's that I'm dipping in for that expert voice, which is good for me.

Yeah. And sometimes let's say I'm sitting here thinking, Okay, I've got my person I know who I'm gonna write this next book about, and I kind of know what they want and where it's going to be. But I need to figure out what makes them act, like I need an inciting incident (as I think the story grid people would say) I need a thing, I need what makes them mad, I will think back to like the last four or five books that I read and liked and think well what pushed that roller coaster off onto the ride. And it's not that I am now going to be like, I know, his wife left him, because my character is not a man and isn't married. It's just a way to sort of remind yourself of some of the things that move characters in books that you love. And hopefully help inspire some ideas. Honestly that one I'm still kind of struggling with...

Sarina Bowen 18:09

I saw a brilliant tweet that was kind of on this topic. It's a tweet by Rachel Hawkins who is a lovely YA writer and she tweeted this out on July 17. And I loved it so much she says, 'Me writing books, man I hope this is not stupid. Me reading books/watching TV/consuming basically any media. This is so stupid. I love it so much. Oh, I have room in my heart for the stupidest of things. Thank you.' I hope I've done it justice. But she did such a great little play act there of the different ways we hold ourselves accountable of our own work versus reading that thing that you are enjoying so much or that inspires you.

Jess Lahey 18:58

Right and sometimes just realizing how goofy the inciting incident, or the resolution, or the reason that someone was doing something was, and yet why you sort of went right along with it happily, that's super helpful.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, some of my favorite writing is my favorite because you can tell that the author is really loving the writing. And Sarina, some of my favorite stuff that you have written is stuff where I can just feel that you're having a good time while you're writing it. So I think that's an important part of it. So yeah, I love that idea of not holding ourselves to impossible standards. What else do we have?

Well, I know we wanted to talk - today, I set my timer with the idea that I was going to spend 55 minutes noodling around on the plot of what I hope will be the next thing I'm writing and I've got several pages of assorted noodling. But the way that I get myself to the point of noodling is I'll stack up like a couple of plot books near me and maybe even pick one up and read a little of it because as I'm reading it I'm saying, Okay, if you're not really punishing the character, then nobody's gonna stick with you. I'll find my brain going, Okay, how am I going to punish my person? Like how's this gonna go badly once they make this choice and that kind of thing. So they fire me up. How's this for a myth? Plotting books are for amateurs. I don't know that that's a myth, but I think it's a feeling that we have. Like if I can't do it without resorting to looking at Save the Cat Writes a Novel then I shouldn't be doing it at all. In which case I shouldn't be doing it at all.

Sarina Bowen 21:07

Yeah, we're able to give that myth a pass, aren't we?

Jess Lahey 21:12

I think so.

KJ Dell'Antonia 21:12

Yes. I love sitting down with a good book that tears up the hero's journey and tells you exactly what the twisty points are and what what the required elements are. And fine do them, don't do them, whatever. But using that map can be so great. So that's the myth. That if you use a map like that, you're gonna produce formulaic fiction.

Jess Lahey 21:41

But you're hitting on something really important, though. Is that if you're talking about hero's journey, what you're talking about then is that some of that's happening anyway on a really subconscious level. So I think one of the things - there's this tension between it should just happen and that vision of Stephen King going down to his mental basement and channeling the magic satellite. And he talks about I don't know where the book's going because if I'm surprised by my own story, then the reader will be surprised. But I know for a fact that I have no mental basement where I'm going to go where the people in the basement are going to allow me to channel a book and that it's going to be well plotted and it's going to be well executed. And that just isn't a thing for me. And I think that comes from a place of yearning, because wouldn't it be a) super fun and b) wouldn't it be just so fantastic to be such a natural at storytelling that you just have to quiet your mind and go to your basement place and suddenly you're able to channel books and not that it's that easy for him, but that there's that myth that it should be that easy. And I think that's what gets us in trouble.

Sarina Bowen 22:57

So the premise there is that novelists are born and not made. And that is such a dangerous premise because many of the people who grow up loving books so much and read them incessantly, just have never had a minute to analyze and dissect the manipulation that a good novelist is creating on the page. And, you know, the idea that we wouldn't ever have to read a book about that is dangerous.

KJ Dell'Antonia 23:32

Yeah. I mean, personally, if I sit down and just grab a couple of characters and start writing, you know, will it be decent writing? Yes. Will it be entertaining? Yes, for about a page or maybe two. But, you know, without some idea of what their problem is and what they're going to do to fix it and how it's going to go wrong. I'll just write a conversation for a really, really, really embarrassingly long time.

Sarina Bowen 24:11

I mentioned earlier that I had listened to this talk by Becca Syme and she had hit all these myths. And one of the ones that she gave really spoke to me because on the face of it, it's not a myth at all. And this was the one she said, You can't edit a blank page. And at first, I was like, hang on, you really actually can't. But what she meant was that not everybody assembles their plot in the same way. You know, some people really need to think for a nice long time before they're ready to write. And I think I am one of those people.

Jess Lahey 25:03

I'm one of those people definitely.

KJ Dell'Antonia 25:05

We were talking about that when we were walking the other day that, you know, you and I are both trying to develop a new plot. Basically, we're both noodling around. And whether that's scribbles and paper or just sort of mental scribbles, we are editing that, in some sense to find who we're going to write about and what's going to happen to them and what they're going to want without having actual words. So, you can't stick commas onto a blank page, or at least not with any degree of productivity, but you can edit your mental vision of where you're going. Or your scribbled notebook vision of where you're going.

Jess Lahey 25:51

Isn't that really what I'm doing? I'm still trying to finish my Author Accelerator Inside Outline for this novel idea that I have and isn't that just sort of front loaded editing because I'm saying, oh, this doesn't actually move anything along. And especially since Jennie forces you to be so concise with your Inside Outline, it forces you to say, what is this actually adding to the book. And later on, if I want to have a whole entire chapter about them sitting talking about food for an entire chapter, I can stick that in later if I want, but at least at the beginning, I'm not wasting a lot of time by adding something that I think I need that will end up having no place in the book.

KJ Dell'Antonia 26:30

Right. You can write different ways, like some people would rather write it all and sort of figure out where it's going that way. But you can edit your mental page, I guess is what we're arguing here.

Jess Lahey 26:50

Well, Sarina has talked extensively about her efficiency and the outlining and how those two things are linked.

Sarina Bowen 26:58

I'm starting to figure out that outlining for me isn't quite as simple as I had thought that it was, and that there are productive kinds of outlining for me and non productive ones. So that's what I've been chewing on and why that you can't edit a blank page thing really spoke to me.

KJ Dell'Antonia 27:17

I find I do a fair amount of scribbling in the notebook that I never go back to.

Jess Lahey 27:23

Yeah, I do that, too.

KJ Dell'Antonia 27:34

I write it down now sort of knowing that I will probably never go back and look at it. But there's something about putting it in ink on that piece of paper that I don't know locks it in for me.

Sarina Bowen 27:47

I do that too all the time. There's just a certain number of rocks I have to turn over until I find the thing I'm looking for.

KJ Dell'Antonia 27:54

That is a good way to put it.

Jess Lahey 27:56

I think that gets back to where we were in the beginning, which is I think best in the written word on the page. And it isn't until I sit down and start writing those things that I actually get to the bottom of what's silly, stupid, works, doesn't work. I can think about it all I want, but I'm not going to know if that thing whether that's in an essay, or a nonfiction book, or a fiction book, whether it's going to work in the end until it's actually down on the page and I can look at it.

KJ Dell'Antonia 28:22

Yes. So here's the thing. 800 word essay, I think well while I'm writing it. I can do that, because even if I write 1600 words, and then have to figure that out, that's fine. 90,000 word book, not a good plan. For me. I think maybe I could get to a point where it might work because I have written more books. But right now, not an efficient use of my time.

Yeah, I was just telling you guys that I have a big feature coming out and the outline at one point was longer than the word count for the feature. But it was a very useful exercise because we had to go through that process to figure out what was going to end up at the end. And we couldn't have done that without outlining first.

Jess Lahey 29:14

We've had some really good ones. And I think with all the myth stuff, it's just reassuring to know that there aren't a lot of wrong ways to do this writing thing. I mean, if words are getting down on the page, and it's fulfilling to you and you're feeling good about what's happening, I don't care if some other writer says you're doing it wrong. I very specifically had a writer, look me in the eye and tell me I was doing something absolutely wrong. And it was the most crap advice I've ever gotten on writing, but realizing that was actually really helpful to me because I went, oh. And even the fact that I now look at this author that I really respected and see that she might be wrong about this, that demystifies the process for me a little bit and I think I'm gonna be okay. So I love when we can bust some myths up.

Sarina Bowen 30:05

Yeah, we're busting them. I would say just that the overarching theme here is examine your own premise like if you look at your process like it's a changeable, mutable thing, then it's a very productive way to try to examine your process. Everybody wants to go faster. Everybody wants to write better work than they did last week. And looking at your process and what other people think about it from a couple paces back is usually a pretty helpful thing.

Jess Lahey 30:40

Absolutely.

KJ Dell'Antonia 30:42

You know, and maybe that this has been a huge multi-month endeavor in recognizing that the rituals that we maybe once had and the places that we like to write, and the ways that we like to do things were not available to us anymore, especially if you were in coffee shops, or you like to say to write in a room that did not contain multiple children and partners who were trying to ask you questions about why there is no food in the refrigerator. You know, we don't have that anymore, or maybe we need to find a way to find it. All three of us have lately been sort of wandering around going, oh, I can't, I just can't. And I guess busting the myths is kind of a way to try to find our way to say, okay, I can't do that, but maybe I can spend half an hour trying to figure out what my plotting book is that I would like to read and then actually sit down and read it and hopefully do a little. So now that we're done for the moment with our mythbusting, let's move on to what we're reading after a short break. Listeners, you know we're about to get into what we've been reading. And we've been reading some good stuff. But have you ever thought about how those books get so good? Or maybe thought you could be a part of making an author's novel, memoir, or nonfiction as good as it could possibly be, and get paid for the work? Author Accelerator has a book coach training program that students described as truly life changing. They dig into the mechanics, process, and emotion of coaching, but they don't stop there. Their program also helps you turn coaching into a profitable business that fits into your life. Find out more at authoraccelerator.com.

Jess Lahey 32:54

Okay, people what have we been reading? If we haven't been writing as much let's hope some of us have been reading some things, I know I have.

Sarina Bowen 33:01

I did I read a memoir like a grown up. And it was the terrific memoir that Jess mentioned on another episode, which is Notes on a Silencing by Lacey Crawford. It was terrific. And I want to shake everyone from her teenage years. And tell them what for. I had my typical reaction to memoir, which is always my frustration that people's early lives don't have a perfect narrative arc, like some of my favorite fiction. She did an amazing job, it's such a good book. And I enjoyed reading it very much, but it's always jarring to me. And also I had another typical memoir thought, which is how do people remember things from when they're 15? And she and I are just about the same age. She's a couple years younger than I am. So I guess we'll go with that. But finally, relating to today's discussion, there were just some things about her experience and the difficult traumatic experience that she had to process that I feel like made me a better fiction writer. And I feel more competent at tackling maybe darker backstories just having Lacey Crawford make me think about that kind of trauma in one's youth. So I enjoyed it very much.

Jess Lahey 34:40

Oh, good. I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I thought she did a spectacular job. KJ, what have you been reading?

KJ Dell'Antonia 34:48

Oh, so I actually was able to go and sit by a pool by a beach last week. It was amazing and miraculous and made me feel as though the world was normal. In the process, I read two books. One of the things I read was total classic, perfect beach read even has the name. It was Jen Weiner's Big Summer. It is extremely fun. It is a taco of a book that is delicious, and fun, and wonderful, and amazing to eat, and yet has some substance to it. It was great. Amusingly, because she is Jen Weiner, it is of course marketed, and covered, and titled as though it is women's commercial fiction. It is absolutely 100% murder mystery. I don't think that's a spoiler because if you read the whole flap copy, you at least figure out that there's something along those lines going on. This is like right down to the set of amateur detectives drawing out clues on a blackboard classic, every I dotted, every t crossed, mystery, super fun, super well done, and with all the wonderful themes of women's fiction that she usually has. And yet it also has this mystery, which is really fun and entertaining. And it's also just amusing that when you've got multiple best selling commercial women's fiction books, you can write whatever you want and call it commercial women's fictions. And I love that and support it. Go Jen. So that was one of them. And the other is The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett. So I go on my vacation. I read about the first half of The Vanishing Half, it is amazing is wonderful, but it's also the kind of book that when you are reading it, you do not wish for anyone to poke you and ask for sunscreen. You're deep in it and it's kind of a grumpy book in some ways. And it is really, really good. This one's the story of two twins who started out in 1950's Louisiana. They're black girls, they run away from home. One of them decides to pass as white, the other does not, and it comes forward, not the present, into like the 70's and 80's. But in a really amazing, and fascinating, and wonderful way. I loved it was really good. Excellent one, well worth your hardcover dollars.

Jess Lahey 38:12

Excellent. I've been reading some really good stuff too and now I'm excited I have two more books to read. I listened to Unacceptable by Melissa Korn and Jennifer Levitz. Melissa Korn is at the New York Times, Jennifer Levitz is at the Wall Street Journal and this is the story of the Varsity Blues college admissions scandal case. And it is so good. The level of reporting is incredible. They do an incredible job; they read everything, all the details are there. She does all the characterizations really well. So it's not just some extra bits that could have been added on to the articles you've already read. This is a really deep dive into how the whole thing came together and it's beautifully done. I can't recommend it highly enough, especially if you like that sort of thing. You know, procedural, but also juicy, all kinds of stuff. And then I also picked up a book - I follow Sarah Weinman on Twitter and I saw that she was talking about a new collection she has called Unspeakable Acts. And it's a collection of true crime. She writes a lot about true crime. She has a blog about it. It's sort of like that best American Crime Stories that used to be published, but she was the editor of this really lovely collection and there's some really good stuff in there. There's something by Pamela Koloff and a couple of other writers that I just really love. So I happen to really like the true crime genre and these are nice sort of bites of true crime and beautifully written stuff it's a definitely a best of so I'm way into it. So Unspeakable Acts and Unacceptable are my two books, both huge thumbs up. One quick thing, if you are going to have people narrate a book in which (and this has nothing to do with the books I'm recommending) if you're going to have people narrate a book in which there are foreign accents, even just if they're British accents, especially if they're British accents, please get a narrator that can do the accents. I just had to return two books over the past two weeks that I couldn't listen to because the accents are so bad. So that's my rant for the day.

KJ Dell'Antonia 41:18

Before we sign off, let me point out that some of the conversation that we talked about today, started with me shouting about not being able to figure out what plotting book I was looking for on our Facebook page, which is, of course, AmWriting on Facebook. And if you're not in our Facebook group, you should absolutely join it. We have a good time. There's a lot of people gathering up writing partners and creating accountability groups and asking questions, and it's friendly and fun, and lovable so you should do it.

Jess Lahey 41:51

So that's really fun. In fact, recently we had someone finally admit that they've been lurking but they were inspired by all the people who posted there. And so guess what? They got a book deal. I mean, it's just the coolest, coolest place. I love it.

KJ Dell'Antonia 42:05

Yeah, that was awesome. And secondly, if you want to get the show notes for this podcast and every podcast, please sign up to get our emails by going to amwritingpodcast.com. You can sign up for the free show notes or you can sign up to support the show. And if you support the show, then every week you will get either a writer top five, or a mini episode that drops right into your pod player. The mini episode from last week as you listen to this, which for me is still in the future is going to be me talking about great fiction query letters. So if you're interested in that, you'll want to hop over and give us a little support. But even if you're not we'd love to have you on the email list to get the show notes because then you always get the links to the books that we've talked about and everything else.

Jess Lahey 42:57

Alright. Perfect. That was Beautiful. Until next week everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 222 #HomagetoJane: Talking Jane Austen with Sonali Dev Jul 31, 2020

Hey campers—I hate reading you all a canned intro to our authors every time, so I’m winging it with our guest, Sonali Dev. I’m a fan of hers, so I feel like I know all the things. She’s the author of four straight-up romances, but her last-book-but one is the start of a series written in homage to Jane Austen, as is her latest, both set among the members of a politically ambitious Indian family in California. Why Jane Austen? Because, as Sonali says, “those were the first books I read about women wanting things and getting them. Instead of ending up crazy or dead.”

We talk the pros and cons of writing from such revered material, whether readers are “looking for Lydia,” the need to make your heroine “likeable” (pro tip: the female Darcy is hard sledding) and supplying recipes for hungry readers.

Links from the pod:

Sonali Dev on IG

Newsletter with a recipe booklet, recommendations, and a really bad joke.

#AmReading

Sonali: Boyfriend Material by Alexis Hall

The Kingmaker by Kennedy Ryan

KJ: The Proposal by Jasmine Guillory

Perfect Happiness by Kristyn Kusek Lewis

Sarina: Pale Rider by Laura Spinney

The Great Influenza by John M. Barry

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:00

Hello fellow writers, we have an interview for you with Sonali Dev whose Bollywood romances have always reflected her love of all things Jane Austen, and whose latest books are all in on that passion. If you're all in with books, reading, and writing, you might want to check out the latest book from Jennie Nash at our sponsor, Author Accelerator - Read Books All Day and Get Paid For It: The Business of Book Coaching. You can find that and more at authoraccelerator.com. Is it recording?

Jess Lahey 0:30

Now it's recording.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:33

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone and try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess Lahey 0:37

Alright, let's start over.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:38

Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting the weekly podcast about writing all the things, fiction, nonfiction, short pieces, long pieces, proposals, pitches, you are allowed to start to write things that do not start with P, although I may not list them here. And in short, we are the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done.

Sarina Bowen 1:14

I'm Sarina Bowen, I am trying to get the work done this week on romance novel number 36. And you can find more about me at sarinabowen.com.

KJ Dell'Antonia 1:25

And I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I'm the author of the novel The Chicken Sisters, and you heard it here first, I don't know when it's coming out. We've just delayed that puppy from this summer into the future. Not the indefinite future, but I don't know what kind of future. So everybody's talking me off the ledge because I'm not super happy about it, but it is what it is and when it comes out, it's gonna be great. It really is. I'm also the author of How to Be a Happier Parent, which did come out in paperback this summer. I'm a former editor of The Motherlode blog at the New York Times and still sometimes a contributor there. And you'll find me bookstagramming on Instagram at kjda. And we have a guest today that I'm really excited about. So I hate reading everybody the canned intro to the authors all the time, where I sort of just suck pieces off of their websites. So I'm sorry, guest Sonali Dev, I'm revealing your identity. I'm just gonna riff, because I am a fan and I feel like I know all the things without having to write them down. So Sonali Dev is our guest today. She is the author of four straight up Bollywood style romances, but her last book (but before this one) was a take on Pride and Prejudice. And this one, the current book, which is called Recipe for Persuasion follows the arc of the Jane Austen book Persuasion. And we're gonna talk about that and all kinds of things. And Sonali, I'm so excited that you're here.

Somali Dev 3:14

Thank you so much for having me. And I think what I like to call it is an homage to not even an homage to the novel, but an homage to what I learned personally from the novel as a young girl growing up. So it's inspired by, and it's an homage to, her work.

KJ Dell'Antonia 3:33

That completely works and I have not yet finished Persuasion, although I am deep, deep, deep into it. And I absolutely gobbled Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors. And I think you're not someone that sticks tightly to what's been done before in any way and that's what makes them so good.

Somali Dev 3:51

Yeah, not even close. I mean, that's not even my intent ever. You know, these are completely my stories. There's no doubt and like I said, what they are to me is not even really so much about the story, but what I learned from that story, and what it made me, and what it makes me want to say. And so they're absolutely my stories, but it very much is paying homage to her original stories.

Sarina Bowen 4:22

And how did you decide to do that? Like it's a big, difficult task to nod at this work that you already love so much. So what was the deciding factor for you that this would be your next big series of projects?

Somali Dev 4:38

So, it's really strange because you know how we have those childhood dreams that are grand, like the Oscar speeches we give in front of mirrors and things like that. You know, where you dream you're going to do something and Jane Austen was one of my earliest favorites. She was, I think, a very strong influence on me as a young girl, because what I saw in her books was aligned very closely with who I was on the inside, but who I was not being reinforced by the stories in my world. I grew up in India, and the stories we were hearing rarely were about women wanting things and getting them. And so that in Jane Austen's work spoke to me, because you know, her heroines at a time when there was nothing in their world telling them they were worthy of anything considered themselves worthy of getting love, and they didn't end up either crazy or dead, like all the other classics. So from a very early age, and I also dreamed of being a "big fancy author" sitting in my big fancy cottage by the beach and writing, you know, that was my faraway dream as a little girl. And so very early - like I couldn't even tell you where the genesis of that idea was - but very early I knew I wanted to tell her stories my way and then as I started to take the publishing journey seriously and I became a published author, it was always very front and center in my mind. And as that idea had taken taken shape and become real I knew that I wanted to take these four novels, which are my favorite four novels, and tell them under one story umbrella. And I also wanted them to be entirely my stories, while still being very much nods to her. And so all of that was just always in my head. And I think in 2013, I sold my first book and had my first agent. And at the time we had sold the first two Bollywood books and you know how agents and authors who want a career, kind of want to stay a few steps ahead. And when we were having that conversation, I told her about this idea. And her reaction in a very casually dismissive way was that Austen doesn't sell, so we're not going to do that. And even for a second that didn't dissuade me, which kind of tells you how much a part of me this was. So, you know, it was always something I was going to do, no matter who else was on that train or not. So it was just somehow (and I think that has to do with how much of an influence she was for me as a woman and as a person growing up). So I always knew I was going to do this.

KJ Dell'Antonia 8:01

Wow. If we read your first four books really carefully knowing this now, would we see hint? I think you see hints of Darcy, for example, in something that I'm writing now. And I'm aware of it. And it's not an homage, it's not anything, it's just some of the ways that he interacted with Elizabeth are reflected in what I'm working in. So would we find them? Would we find little clues?

Somali Dev 8:29

I think you would be hard pressed not to find some influence of her in any romance novel. So definitely. In fact, I think when I was selling Bollywood Bride, my hook was (of all things) Wuthering Heights meets Monsoon Wedding. I think the things that we read as children... The other day I was talking to someone and when this person read Bollywood Bride they got a Jane Eyre sense and I think that has to do with the fact that there is a crazy lady in the attic. Like you can't write a bad arrogant, bad proposal without invoking Jane Austen, there's just no way to do it. You can't write an arrogant man without invoking Darcy. And so, yeah for sure, I think you see that in those books. I think how you see it more is in the voice. And there's a little bit of cynicism in all my writing. This need to laugh at the world we live in was something I think again was reinforced by Jane Austen and by PG Woodhouse. And you know, those authors that I read as a child like we live in this world and it's flippin ridiculous and that it's okay to live in it and yet find it completely ridiculous was something (again) that felt okay because I read these books young. And I think if you looked you would find in a lot of the inner dialogue and the narrative of all of my books is the fact that all is not well with our world and it's kind of ridiculous.

Sarina Bowen 10:40

Can I ask a question - you just made such a terrific case for the fun and the backbone that you get by writing an homage to something you love, and I just want to think about the risks for a second. Because that's something we do on the podcast a lot is just to think about the pros and cons of various paths. So I read a book a few years ago called The Flight of Gemma Hardy, a novel by Margot Livesey. And it's a Jane Eyre take, which is super fun. And I went to see this author at my local bookstore and she started to talk about why she wrote this book and my jaw kind of hit the floor because she had a life that began a little bit like a Jane Eyre. So she was just primed to write this thing. So I took this wonderful book, and I read it and I enjoyed every minute of it. But in the back of my head, I was always like, What is she going to do with the crazy woman in the attic? So to me that announced itself as a risk that readers would be looking for certain plot cues to happen. So how do you subvert that?

Somali Dev 12:01

So what you're saying is that if you pick up a book that is titled Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors you're going to be looking for...

KJ Dell'Antonia 12:12

You're looking for Lydia...

Somali Dev 12:14

and you're looking for a story that's kicked off by a misunderstanding and egos being hurt. You're looking for the bad proposal. So again, I think (and this happened fairly naturally, and this might just be a nature and personality thing) is that I really only cared for what I wanted to say. And I really only cared for the story I wanted to tell. And so if at any point I had thought (I never, for a moment and this is with all my books) I rarely think about what it is people want to hear. I feel like I'm doing a disservice to writing, and not to sound obnoxious, but I feel like this in the way I live in everything, if you say things that you think people want to hear, then you have zero credibility. And there's really no authenticity in living like that. And so I try to kind of transfer that to how I write. And so just naturally I don't worry about it. And that explains a lot, possibly about my career.

KJ Dell'Antonia 13:28

So you're just kind of like, well, the Lydia is coming and that's okay. Like, if people maybe know that the Lydia is coming (I'm just using Lydia because that's a pretty easy one), but I'm good with that. Like, I'm rolling along and by God, the Lydia train is about to crash into my story.

Somali Dev 13:46

No, not even that. I'm thinking if Lydia is not important to the story I'm telling, then she doesn't have to be there. Like I want this story to be about two people who start off on the wrong foot because of how they see the world and themselves, and that's what I want. Only in that much is what I want to do with Pride and Prejudice. You know, I want to explore how when you meet someone who is completely different from you, how you process yourself and the world. And so that is what I want to do. And so that's what I'm going to do. I'm not thinking about people looking for Wickham or for Lydia or any of that. So it's only in that much, that I want to retell that story. Now, if that kickoff point where there is the misunderstanding, comes naturally to my story, and if that proposal comes naturally to my story, only then it has a place in my book. So like with Persuasion, at least with Pride, Prejudice and Other Flavors, there are some plottish consistencies, but with Persuasion, you'd be hard pressed to find anything more than a thematic connection.

KJ Dell'Antonia 15:23

So Persuasion is my least favorite Jane Austen book, and I want to get to that...

Somali Dev 15:28

I want to talk about that because I've been hearing so many people say that.

KJ Dell'Antonia 15:34

But I'm watching for who the other girl is, and maybe I'm wrong, maybe she's not even coming. So, but don't tell me, don't tell we're not spoiling in any way. I had guessed, I was like, oh, I'll bet this is the girl who falls off the wall. I forget her name. Yes, Louisa Musgrove. Thank you.

Somali Dev 16:00

So I think that for me again, the way I think about the story is that Louisa Musgrove isn't Louisa Musgrove in the story, she is the thing or the device that keeps Ann and Wentworth misunderstandings reinforced. So what she is is them not growing enough to put their past behind them. So, what you will find is other things that keep them from doing that. You might be able to take a character and say, okay, she's kind of Louisa Musgrove, but what she really is, is just that thing standing in their way, which is really in terms of story to me, what I'm trying to get them over.

KJ Dell'Antonia 16:52

Right. Oh, you need that, because otherwise it's boring.

Somali Dev 16:56

And that's the story, the story is about getting over mistakes. But not by magic, but by growing. So that's the story I'm trying to tell - the story that no mistake is absolute. I'm not trying to tell the story of Captain Wentworth per se, I'm trying to tell the story of this warrior-like man who goes off and makes lemonade when life gives him lemons, but has not let go of his past, and how he's going to process a second chance and this girl who has to grow a spine and you know, was never spineless.

KJ Dell'Antonia 17:35

That's why Persuasion is my least favorite Jane Austen. Because I have trouble with the spineless heroine. But yours I can tell has a spine, she's just put it in the closet somewhere.

Somali Dev 17:53

Again, with both of them... Now, I don't see Ann as spineless, I see Ann as very much a product of her time. But if she were truly spineless she would have just gone off and married the next Joe who comes along. So Ann is just someone who feels differently from how the world around her feels, and she has to make that journey of being okay with it. I think this is a very universal journey and we all make it. It's just less overt in our day to day, because the world will tell us being x is really what makes you cool or all of that. And if you naturally don't feel x, then you have to make the journey of that being okay. And I think that's her journey. So it's not spinelessness. She never is okay with what doesn't feel okay to her. She just has to find a way to find that power to let that become.

KJ Dell'Antonia 18:48

That's probably why Persuasion does work. Even though like you said, you're hearing a lot of people say that they have frustration with the heroine. There's a lot of pleasure in seeing her find a way to be okay with it. And also I think you're right, we all know that we're in that and that it's a really common journey. Maybe it's just one we don't like to think that hard about.

Somali Dev 19:13

Yeah. And we don't live in a world with overt taboos or overt divisions in society, but they're all still there, it's just become more silent and it's become less easy to find. But I feel we still relate to those journeys, because it's very much there. And it's our daily struggle, I don't think there is a person in the world who feels completely comfortable in their skin from the day that they were born. Which is why this whole woman against her world or woman against expectations story works for us even today. Now, I will say that if you've watched the films, I think both portrayals of the two BBC films that are most commonly watched, the portrayals of Ann Elliot are terrible, terrible. Yeah, so maybe those filmmakers saw her as that, or those actresses did. But it's terrible, like that's not how I saw Ann Elliot and I found it very violating to have actresses play them like spineless wimps because she's not.

KJ Dell'Antonia 20:33

I wanted to ask you if you find that setting the Jane Austen stories - this is probably more true of Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors which you actually set in India. Recipe for Persuasion is set in the United States.

Somali Dev 20:49

No, they're both set in the United States. They're are an Indian American family. It's the story of a politically ambitious Indian American family. And Pride, Prejudice and Other Flavors is set in the San Francisco Bay area where the older son is running for California Governor. So it's very much set in America.

KJ Dell'Antonia 21:08

Pride, Prejudice and Other Flavors has got him running for governor?

Somali Dev 21:12

So the overall arc for these four novels when I imagined them was that, it was this politically ambitious Indian American family in the Bay Area. And their oldest son is running for California Governor and the stories kick off with the announcement that he's running, and then they will end when the election results happen.

KJ Dell'Antonia 21:33

Right. So that's gonna be all four books?

Somali Dev 21:35

That's all four books.

KJ Dell'Antonia 21:36

I think (and it's been obviously a little while since I read Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors) that the flair of India and the feel must have just sort of soaked into me a little too thoroughly. But what I wanted to ask was, do you think that using your Indian heritage and working within that culture you kind of get the advantage of some of the more strict expectations that Jane Austen's heroines faced? Like it might be harder for people to buy feeling huge pressure from your family from some suburban Chicago kid, whereas if you're looking at a tiger mom or at an Indian parent who has expectations about marrying within the Indian... I don't even know what the words are that I'm looking for. Anyway, do you think that sort of helps to heighten the Austen feeling, is what I really wanted to ask?

Somali Dev 22:40

Okay, so first, Trisha (who is the protagonist of Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors) who is a female Mr. Darcy, because the story is gender flipped. She's a neurosurgeon at Stanford. So you know, very much an American story. But I think you're right, and it isn't that simple. Because I think family expectations are pretty ubiquitous and universal. Having said that, Indian families have peculiarities and lack of boundaries, or at least mine does. I was having this conversation with someone else who is not Indian and she said, 'Are their families where they believe in boundaries?' And I don't know families that believe in boundaries. So I think it's naturally a part of being a family, but then as an author always world building. So this could be a white family, they could be a Korean family, they could be a black family, as long as I as an author can make you believe that that's how their relationships and their bonds are. That's all I really need to do. And for me, being an Indian American girl, there is authenticity to my understanding of how Indian families interact. I do feel like it's not that unique, but that just might be because that is my life. And so it is easy for me. I don't know if it's easier for the reader to process. Again, you know, Jane Austen was about family, but I think that it was really more about society. So how rigid the society you lived in was and again in these books, it is very much the modern world, so it's not like rules have suddenly appeared. It's that rules exist in our world, they're just more subtle than they were 200 years ago.

KJ Dell'Antonia 25:26

I just wonder if the rules feel easier for a white reader to stomach because they can sort of be like, Oh yes, Indian families are like that, but yet the reason that they're in there and identifying is that all families are like that exactly like you said. It's an interesting way of just thinking about how readers let things into their minds and where they go with it.

Somali Dev 25:58

And again, I come across all sorts of readers. I come across the reader who will come to me and say with great amounts of disbelief that they could actually relate to my characters. Like they think they're saying something nice to me and they're like, my gosh, I could totally relate to Milly, who you know has a child. And my reaction to that is always, you can relate to vampires so why are you surprised that you can relate to an Indian girl?

KJ Dell'Antonia 26:32

You can relate to Jane Austen's heroines. They're as far from us as anything.

Somali Dev 26:38

Exactly. And then there are people who have read one book, and it's a checkmark. Oh, I read an Indian book and now I know everything about the Indian culture, and I'm done with my little walk. And there are readers who inhale all of my books and see them as a story and reading and processing them like they would read and process any story. So I think that there is a good spectrum of readers. And again, I'm essentially writing it as a story. And my hope is that everybody will in the end, we will be a world where everybody will read it as a story, not an Indian story.

KJ Dell'Antonia 27:20

It is very much a story, except for the part where it makes you hungry for Indian food.

Sarina Bowen 27:49

I just wanted to point out that at the beginning of Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors, chapter one actually begins in India with the heroine's childhood. This beautiful rich memory of her visit to a family estate and what happens there. And I just love the way that you get this glimpse of her as a young child and then you snap your fingers and you're in this hospital in Northern California. So I felt like I was being dunked into her sort of mythical past before shown the harsh hospital lighting and that just helped color it that way for me as a reader, that she was just more interesting than if I had seen her in a lab coat for the first moment.

Somali Dev 28:41

As writers, all three of us, I'm sure have had to make this struggle. And that is the likability of your female protagonist. So just by virtue of writing a female Darcy, and that was one of the reasons that I wrote this book and also one of the reasons why writing this book was a very personally transformative experience for me. Because I set out to see if arrogance and owning your own power and privilege and your own brilliance and all of that would still be easily palatable. I mean, would be easily palatable in 2019 in a woman as it was in a man 200 years ago, in 1813. And so, it turns out that it isn't, it turns out that it took a lot of iterations to make Trisha consumable. And it was work because a woman being arrogant, and a woman being impatient, and a woman being lacking in empathy is not seen the same way as a man being all those things. And one of those things, I think one of the reasons that I had to show you right up front where she's coming from, it instantly softens her, which is kind of sad that she needed that instant softening and if I was showing you a man in that same situation I may not have had to soften him. You know, we would all have been much more accepting of his arrogance and trusted that he'll come around. Because men are expected to be jerks in fiction and especially romantic fiction when we start out.

Sarina Bowen 30:42

That's so true. And you know, if Pride and Prejudice had begun with little Darcy in knee pants like snuggling a swarm of puppies I don't know if I could summon the same outrage during that awful proposal. And I think that we should take a pause right here with Darcy in knee pants with the puppies, before we talk about what we've been reading.

KJ Dell'Antonia 31:07

Excellent plan. Writers before we get to what we've been reading, let's talk about what you've been writing or rather, where you've been writing. If you've got a pile of colored index cards that represent scenes, and plot lines, and characters, and keep getting shuffled around on the floor while your dog walks on them, a notebook full of pages with half an outline here and a list of things that belong in another scene there. I get you. And I want to encourage you to take a look at Dabble, the writing software that works the way our writing minds work, or maybe the way we wish they'd work. Capture all those little details and big plot lines in a system designed to help you keep track of where you are and where you're going. We love Dabble and we hope you will, too. Get a free trial at dabblewriter.com and please head over to our Facebook group and tell us what you think. Now it is time, let's talk about what we've been reading that did not involve Darcy and with a swarm of puppies?

Somali Dev 32:22

I so now want to read Darcy with a swarm of puppies. And boy shorts.

KJ Dell'Antonia 32:29

Alright, so what are we reading?

Sarina Bowen 32:55

My books are easy.

KJ Dell'Antonia 32:56

Okay. Then you go first, Sarina, while Sonali and I gather our thoughts.

Sarina Bowen 33:02

My book club has picked Pale Rider by Laura Spinney, which is a book about the Spanish Flu of 1918. And the structure of Pale Rider is frustrating me, so I have turned to The Great Influenza by John Barry to compare the two and I will let you know.

Somali Dev 33:23

Can I just say I have so much respect for anyone reading those books right now like in this moment in time.

KJ Dell'Antonia 33:40

Alright, Sonali, I'm gonna turn to you because I am looking up a title on Kindle.

Somali Dev 33:48

It seems to be a really good time for rom-coms. And just in terms of what's being published, like every book being published is a rom com, but it's also a really good time for some fun and romance. So there's one that comes out in July, it is called Boyfriend Material by Alexis Hall who is one of my favorite, favorite romance authors.

Sarina Bowen 34:20

I cannot wait to get my hands on that book.

Somali Dev 34:22

I have been saying that this is possibly the best rom-com I have ever read. Like it's in that realm, it's that good. So it is this fake relationship, but through the whole book the fake relationship is in quotation marks. Like as you're reading it, these big virtual quotation marks because it is this complete cup of a boy who is the son of a fallen rock star. So he is a papparazzi darling. He's always in the news for the wrong reasons. He's a mess. And to regain his reputation at work, he needs a good solid boyfriend. And so he finds this man who is a human rights lawyer and incredibly straight laced and all the things and it is just delightful. It is laugh out loud funny. I mean, there were times when I was guffawing like a hyena. Don't drink hot beverages - you will choke and you will spit them all over the place. Hilarious, incredibly poignant. Just so connected, it's just a gorgeous book. I mean, it will just leave you so happy. And it's one of those books that also makes you turn a mirror on yourself. So it's all those things and it's just amazing. So that comes out at the end of July, I think.

I'm so jealous that you have the arc. Alexis Hall is so talented.

Incredibly, I think is one of the greatest talents of the romance genre right now. Glitter Land is also an absolute masterpiece, I think. I didn't think I would love one more than that, but it's just delightful. It's everything a British rom-com should be or can be. So I have also recently discovered Kennedy Ryan and think that her writing is almost like startlingly beautiful. And she wrote The Kingmaker I think that came out in December last year, and it was what she calls a duet, so Kingmaker is the first. I think the second book is called Rebel King, but it has this giant emotional impact of like old style romance. But all of the subject matter is so current and contemporary. So she kind of juxtaposes those two things so well, very emotionally, it's an old style romance, but with all the regressive parts gone and it's this fresh and very contemporary, very socially conscious take. And of course, I'm not a huge fan of the whole alpha label. And Max, her protagonist, is as alpha as they come and so even with a hero, who is someone I would run 10 miles from in real life, I just completely bought it and she just makes it beautiful.

KJ Dell'Antonia 37:45

That sounds really good. And I have just written Boyfriend Material down on my list of books to order and I want to check out Kingmaker. I have been reading The Proposal by Jasmine Guillory, and I am only partway into it. And I don't usually talk about books until the author sticks the landing, but she's probably going to and it is really good. And she has a new book coming out this summer too, which is definitely not just on my list of 99% sure, I already ordered it. So there was that and I also read and enjoyed very much Perfect Happiness by Kristyn Kusek Lewis, that one's not rom-com, that's definitely women's fiction. It's woman who is already married, struggling with all kinds of things to do with being already married. And it's pretty fun because she's a happiness expert who is unhappy so that was clearly the hook and it was very hard to put down. So that's fun. And that is what we've been reading because Sarina already told us and we immediately dismissed those because we didn't want to read them.

Sarina Bowen 39:19

Sonali, thank you so much for joining us today.

Somali Dev 39:22

Thank you so much for having me. That went fast and it was so fun. Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia 39:28

Should we tell people where to find you, Sonali? Besides sonalidev.com? What's your favorite social media? Where should people follow you?

Somali Dev 39:37

I am on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And I'm fairly active on (more active than I should be) on all three. And I do also have a newsletter which I was really bad with but I'm now trying to send out once a month so it's a very low incidence newsletter but what I do that people might have fun with is I do a recipe, a recommendation, and a really bad joke, because my family sends me the most terrible jokes on group chat. And I feel like I shouldn't be suffering alone. And if you sign up for the newsletter, I have a free recipe booklet that you get. And of course, I'm told over and over again that the books make people hungry. And these are recipes that are related to the books. So you get that.

KJ Dell'Antonia 41:51

Well, this was super fun. I echo Sarina in saying thank you for coming. And Sarina, do you want to take us out?

Sarina Bowen 42:16

Yes ma'am. Until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess Lahey 42:29

This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 221 #FeelingExposed in Memoir and Fiction Jul 24, 2020

This week, Jess got a message from some family members who’d read the draft of her forthcoming book, The Addiction Innoculation. They had … thoughts.

Those thoughts turned out to be nothing drastic—but the emotional roller coaster Jess rode while waiting to hear more was a doozy, and got us all thinking about how much of ourselves is exposed when we write non-fiction with a memoir element, how real memoirists do it, and how often readers—especially those closest to you—read our fiction looking for hidden truths. It’s a fun conversation that also covers pool floats, parents, dream offices we probably wouldn’t use and more.

Links from the Podcast

Yard Pods

Don’t Kill the Birthday Girl by Sandra Beasley

Mrs. Everything by Jen Weiner

KJ and Sarina’s Pool Floats

#AmReading

KJ: Rodham by Curtis Sittenfeld

I'm Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness by Austin Channing Brown

Jess: Notes on a Silencing by Lacy Crawford

Sarina: Don’t You Forget About Me by Mhairi McFarlane

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:00

Hey there. Before we embark on a new episode, I get to tell you about our new sponsor, Dabble. I wrote my last book in a mad combination of Word and Scrivener and it worked fine. But putting the whole thing together in the end was hard. And I accidentally left a chapter out of a draft, confusing everyone. With Dabble the whole book is always just sitting there, already compiled and together as a unit, but still easy to navigate around in using chapters or scenes. It's magical, and I can't wait to make full use of it this time around. Give it a spin at dabblewriter.com and let us know what you think. Is it recording?

Jess Lahey 0:38

Now it's recording. Go ahead.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:41

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone and try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess Lahey 0:45

Alright, let's start over.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:46

Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three.

I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting, the podcast about writing all the things - fiction, nonfiction, memoir, essays, proposals, pitches. In short, as I say most nearly every week, this is the podcast about sitting down and getting your writing work done.

I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and the forthcoming Addiction Inoculation that'll be out in April 2021. And currently writing some stuff for The Washington Post and Air Mail. And yeah, I guess that's about it.

Sarina Bowen 1:31

And I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 35 romance novels. And I'm currently writing nothing and it is glorious.

KJ Dell'Antonia 1:41

I'm KJ Dell'Antonia. I'm the author of How To Be a Happier Parent and the novel The Chicken Sisters, which is coming out this December look for it in bookstores near you if you can be in them and goodness knows I hope you can, but I'm not holding my breath. I am the former editor of The Motherlode Blog at the New York Times where I sometimes still contribute. And I write things for other places. But I am primarily now focused on fiction, kind of, mostly, more about that in a minute maybe.

Jess Lahey 2:12

Speaking of being able to go into bookstores, I was able to go into one for the first time recently, they're limiting their customers. I went to the Phoenix Bookstore in Burlington, and I was able to browse and I had just forgotten how much I miss browsing and I found a couple of books and I was so excited to just sort of be able to look at the things and not online. It was very exciting.

KJ Dell'Antonia 2:37

I have been really aching to do that and haven't done it since March, but I have a couple of possible abilities to do that in my immediate future I hope.

Jess Lahey 2:50

I stayed in like the gardening section and the cooking section and just looked at all these books. I miss it. I miss it so much. Hold on, can we go back to what Sarina said about not working on anything right now like this is monumental because you're always working, Sarina, you're constantly working. Are you taking a break right now between projects?

Sarina Bowen 3:15

I am. And it's partly because I'm just burnt out and need a break. And partly because I have a lot of promo and organizational stuff that could really eat an entire month. And I'm ahead for the first time in many months - ahead of publication schedule.

KJ Dell'Antonia 3:34

Wow, that sounds glorious.

Jess Lahey 3:36

That's really amazing. KJ, what are you doing?

KJ Dell'Antonia 3:38

Well, my agent has just given me back some edits on what I hope will be my next novel. So I'm finishing those up and then we'll figure out where we are going from there. But I suspect that I will finish those edits up and then that will be sort of temporarily finished and then it is time to start something new. So I am wandering through the world thinking what's the next novel? Who's it about? And I'm spending a lot of time thinking things like well but wait the last two were about people and their mothers. I apparently can't stop with people and their mothers. And then I was like, Well, lots of authors can't stop with people and their mothers.

Sarina Bowen 4:26

Well, we all had one or we missed having one, so that's a big theme.

KJ Dell'Antonia 4:34

It is universal, but it's almost feels like it should be its own genre. And then I've been noodling a possible nonfiction thing. Just a little something about writing.

Jess Lahey 4:57

That's really exciting.

KJ Dell'Antonia 4:58

I've been having fun thinking about it.

Jess Lahey 5:00

Yeah, I didn't expect to have many deadlines right now. But then stuff came up and I was asked to write some things. I'm working on two book reviews that will be due in the next couple months, two books that I never would have picked up on my own. So I'm learning a lot from both books and I can't say what they are. And then Tim and I are writing a piece together for a big national publication about going back to school in the age of COVID. And the problem with that it's going to be in print and so the word count has to be pretty on target. And the problem is this is such a big topic that even our outline at one point was longer than our final word count. Well and I just texted you guys about this before we started, but working in the same house together, Tim and I write together pretty well, but we normally do it in separate locations. And you know, no one's going to work, no one's going to school, and we just had the dumbest argument about absolutely nothing. And we just don't argue very much. And so I realized man, it is so time for someone to go work somewhere else because I can't take it anymore.

KJ Dell'Antonia 6:26

I was on Instagram and a lovely writer whose name I have now forgotten, was showing her writing shed and it was as cute as anything and she was a New Englander. So it was clearly not only useful for part of the year but I just looked at it I thought that is amazing. Plus, if I had it, somebody else would have taken it over.

Jess Lahey 6:46

You know who has a great one is Julie Lythcott-Haims. She does all of her interviews from there and she writes there and it's called like a yard pod. And it's absolutely beautiful. It's just stunning, it's filled with books, and it's bright and sunny, and it's behind her house, and no one goes in there really but her. It's pretty lovely.

Sarina Bowen 7:05

That is living the dream.

KJ Dell'Antonia 7:08

You'd think so, but I bet I wouldn't even use it. I tend to sit smack in the middle of everything. It's stupid, but I do. I don't use my office anymore because there's someone else in here. I mean I record in here, I don't know, I used to write in here.

Jess Lahey 7:27

It does sound like this wonderful thing - I was at a house recently and they have a little glassed in studio overlooking Lake Champlain. And I thought about it and I'm like, it looks so beautiful, but you're right, I think I would just not spend a lot of time out there.

Sarina Bowen 7:45

I would - take me!

KJ Dell'Antonia 7:51

Alright, yard pod for Sarina.

Jess Lahey 7:59

So we do kind of have a topic this week that we were playing around with because I read a book this week and submitted my finished-copy-edited-now-in-galley-form pages form book to some first readers and have been having some anxiety attacks this week. So we wanted to talk a little bit about when you reveal yourself through your writing. And Gift of Failure I revealed some of myself, but there's nothing embarrassing there really, there was nothing like too freaky in there. But this new book is very memoir-based, so much so that we actually talked about the possibility of coding it as a memoir as well. And it's really scary because it's about my substance abuse, my being an alcoholic, and about what I went through. And I read a book this week by Lacey Crawford called Notes On a Silencing and it's about her sexual assault at St. Paul School. And so I've just had on my brain a lot lately the idea of putting yourself out there in your books and how what a challenge that can be, and we want to come at this from a couple of different angles. And for me a lot of this came down to the fact that I handed my book The Addiction Inoculation, over to my parents. And it's right there in the flap copy that I come from a family where there's a lot of substance abuse. And I got one of those phone calls, I was very careful when I wrote it, but I got one of those phone calls from my parents saying, can we talk? And it turned out okay, but I had that like my heart in my stomach. I thought I was gonna throw up, I'm like I was so super careful about what I put in there. And I didn't tell anyone's story, but my own story. But, man, putting more of yourself in a book is extremely anxiety provoking. And we wanted to talk a little bit about that and how that happens, or doesn't happen, or what happens with fiction and that kind of stuff. So I was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on that.

Sarina Bowen 10:14

I read a memoir recently-ish called Don't Kill the Birthday Girl by Sandra Beasley. And the subtitle is Tales From an Allergic Life. So she is super allergic to many things, which is not exactly like a hot button family issue. It's not tales from being beaten in a cupboard, you know? But even the first line of her acknowledgment section says, 'There's no sentence more terrifying to two family members than I'm writing a memoir.' And I loved that. I loved that as the first line of her acknowledgments and, of course, her life experience growing up with this somewhat unique, but unfortunately not unique enough, problem of having anaphylactic shock all the time from being allergic to half the world did bleed into her family a little bit. And her ex boyfriend is in there, she had to deal with it even though it wasn't like a dark topic. So I had never realized that before until I read it in her acknowledgments.

Jess Lahey 11:31

I guess I also think a lot about you know, Mary Karr, who wrote Lit about substance abuse in her family. And of course, she's written a whole bunch of stuff, and it's all deeply deeply personal memoir stuff. And she talks about the fact that she lets people read all of this stuff that she writes ahead of time, and that there's some veto power. Her mother apparently, you know, was like, 'Look, you live this, go for it. This is your experience.' But that's definitely not what a lot of relatives do. A lot of relatives, mine included, were worried, really worried and I even let them see my book proposal. And in the book proposal I did say that I was going to talk a little bit about my family, but in pretty general terms. There were some ground rules (or some agreements) that we made early on about how much I reveal that isn't my story to tell. And that's also been interesting. Early on, when I was doing interviews about the fact that I was writing this book and people would ask me about my history and I had to make it really clear that I am not free to tell other people's stories, I'm free to tell my stories. But where those stories overlap and how much my experience of someone else's story am I allowed to tell? I'm always really scared that I'm going to get that wrong.

KJ Dell'Antonia 12:55

Sure, I mean, just to give an example that I will intentionally make completely not about any of us. Just say that you want to write about the reason that you're a trapeze artist. And for some reason your father is super, super sensitive about his experiences as a trapeze artist because his dad was a trapeze artist and he found that really a difficult way to grow up. But the fact that he's really upset about the whole trapeze artist thing because of his dad affects how he experiences or how he responds to you being a trapeze artist. And, you know, there you are. You sort of need to include your dad's experience of trapeze artists in your memoir because otherwise his crazy reluctance to permit you to swing wildly from the trapeze just doesn't make sense. I was just, I'll call it coaching. So I had a friend come to me with a couple of essays recently, and by essays, I mean really long, literary things, 15-20 pages and such. And frequently you get a phone call like that, and you sort of opened the document with trepidation, but these were amazing. And this is a friend with a really interesting story. And I said, 'Well, you know, it's just gonna be up to you to figure out how much of this you want to tell because I think you have a memoir here as well as this other stuff.' And she said, 'Oh, both my parents are dead.' And I was like, 'Well, then you're free.' Now, I wouldn't wish this upon anyone, and I do not want that day to come, but when it comes, yeah, you write anything you want.

Jess Lahey 14:42

I thought about that a lot. There are certain stories that I would love to talk about, but I do talk specifically in my book about the fact that ignoring things, and hiding truths, and pretending like everything's fine when things aren't fine, was a very big part of my story. And so it's really scary - and for me one of the big things I talk about a lot in the book is that I am very honest about my personal life and my substance abuse because in my childhood no one was allowed to talk about it, in fact, we got in trouble for talking about it. So that was the thing that I was most scared of my parents reading and so once I realized they were okay with that, we were basically on okay ground. But it was also interesting because of the conversation I had with them was very much about my parents perception of a statement I made versus my perception of a statement I made and I was making it very generally and he was reading it very specifically. And once we talked about that, he was okay with it. But when we were disagreeing I'm like, well, crap, because this is now in galley version and have I now blown up a bomb in the middle of my family. And that stuff is so scary and yet it was so important to me to be as honest as possible. Because the very thing I'm trying to say in the book is that secrets and shame are what keep us sick. And so to not go there is counter to what I'm saying - about the need to get over our secrets and our shame. So it was it was a tricky situation, but one I felt was really important to to do justice to.

Sarina Bowen 16:21

That's amazing.

Jess Lahey 16:23

I want to know, Sarina, one thing - so whenever people talk to fiction authors, they often say you know how much of you is in your characters? And I've always thought about you know, there are certain fiction books I would love to write and I'm always worried someone's gonna think I'm projecting like my own stuff onto my characters and do you get any of that?

Sarina Bowen 16:44

Yeah, but of course you have to separate what the people close to you think versus what strangers think. So with memoir, it's really important to your family existence that everybody you know is okay with your memoir. But in fiction, some misunderstanding just doesn't have the same weight. So I have most of a manuscript somewhere for a women's fiction that I haven't finished or published yet. And my mother read an early draft of it. And she said, 'I didn't know that you hated Hanover.' (which is the town where I live) And I said, 'Mom, I don't hate Hanover at all, but my character is not a fan.' And so writing what you know, can mean just using everything you see about a place to look at it from different angles, which is what I had done, and it wasn't my first book because of course, that kind of distance is hard to capture the first time you write a novel, but this one was a very confident view of living in this small town as a 40 something single woman who sees a lot. And I just was fascinated by the fact that she thought that I didn't like my town just from some things that this character observed about it. But a stranger wouldn't grab that and have as strong feelings about it. Probably. So when you're writing fiction, in one sense, you're handing over a chunk of your brain for the analysis of others, which is always a little uncomfortable, because there will be some things that you personally feel that just bleed in there and you can't help it. Like I hate pumpkin spice lattes and none of my characters are a fan either.

Jess Lahey 18:48

Or certain kinds of beer, you're very clear on your beer preferences, too.

Sarina Bowen 18:57

That's right. Nobody drinks Bud Light in my book or if they do that is not a good character, like that person is going to murder somebody. So if you read all 35 of my books, you can find some things about me that are like my personal preferences and blind spots, which is, of course, important to the national discussion of how people of color are treated in fiction and seen in fiction. But of course, that's true about every author, it's hard to get fully away from all of the things you believe and don't even realize you believe. But with a romance novel, though, you have this shield. So it's like, here's a piece of my brain, but it's also filtered through the expectations of romance readers everywhere, like the genre is expected to behave in a certain way and I follow those rules and so you get parts of me but not all of me because I'm trying to give you the experience that a romance reader is looking for. And so that's just easier than with memoir. It just happens less often.

Jess Lahey 20:08

Well, I don't know because KJ likes chicken. KJ is from the Midwest, I'm thinking KJ wrote a memoir and she has a sister we don't know about.

KJ Dell'Antonia 20:28

So I have a novel in a drawer. I haven't looked at it in many, many, many, many, many, many years. But I that one I know has much stronger autobiographical elements than The Chicken Sisters. The Chicken Sisters - it's kind of like what Sarina said, there are things in there that I have done, like encourage my children to use the car as an amusement park so that I could have a conversation with someone, both sisters share some thoughts with me, but I'd even be hard put to tell you which one. Yeah, I probably identify with one slightly more than the other. But I could go back to How To Be a Happier Parent and it's kind of like your first book, Jess. It's got things in it that are personal, that are stories, but it took so long to write and also because it's kind of geared towards parents of kids that are younger than mine are now. So I really tried to go back in time for the best stories. And I think actually in the end, my kids were disappointed by how little they were in it. They really expected it, like they opened it thinking now we're gonna find out what mom really thinks of us and it's just not the book that I wrote. But I will say that no matter what I write anywhere under any circumstances, my parents invariably call me up and say that never happened.

Jess Lahey 22:24

It's funny because I thought about this recently because I talk with Sarina about the different kinds of romance books there are - like the second chance, and the friends to lovers kind of thing, and recently an ex-boyfriend of mine got divorced and so I started spooling through my head (even though I have no interest in dating this person, I'm very happily married) how a story might go if someone that was like a first love kind of thing got divorced and what if the person was single and was still interested? How would that romance novel go. And then I simultaneously realized, well, I can never write that book because there's no way I could convince my husband that on some level, I wasn't going there just a little bit in my brain. It's what fed the initial idea for a story, but it's not something that I actually want in my life. And that line would be really hard to convince the people close to you of, I think sometimes. The way you did with your mom, Sarina.

KJ Dell'Antonia 23:32

I think that it would be okay in your third or fourth book, because I think that by then, the assumption that you were writing fiction would be so established. Like, I don't open up a Jen Weiner book and think, Well, clearly she's unhappy with her husband because this person's unhappy with her husband. Whereas if it were a debut novel, I might, I really probably don't because I don't think about it that way. But I feel like even your family's expectations are probably different at that point. But I too would hesitate to write like somebody struggling in an unhappy marriage. Although one of my characters is struggling in this book, but there are two characters and my husband has read it and he still seems pretty secure. I didn't get complaints.

Jess Lahey 24:31

I could see how that would be really problematic, though, for an insecure partner.

Sarina Bowen 24:35

Yeah, well, first, I must say it depends on if your partner reads your books, because I could write anything.

Jess Lahey 24:44

Has he read any of them?

Sarina Bowen 24:45

He read one. And, you know, I guess that was enough for him.

KJ Dell'Antonia 24:50

Mine didn't read Happier Parent, but he wanted to read this one.

Sarina Bowen 24:53

You mentioned Jennifer Wiener and she had a book called Mrs. Everything that came out last summer that is based on her mother's journey.

Jess Lahey 24:53

Oh really?

Sarina Bowen 24:53

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia 24:53

Is her mother still with us?

Sarina Bowen 24:53

Yes. Actually I read this on Twitter.

KJ Dell'Antonia 24:55

So you know it's true. If she tweeted it you do, I know, I'm just sorry.

Sarina Bowen 25:06

Well she is terrific on Twitter.

KJ Dell'Antonia 25:23

She is terrific on Twitter. She a reason to be on Twitter.

Sarina Bowen 25:28

She is - seriously, she's a force of good on Twitter. And she told this quick story. The details aren't all there for me still, but that her mother went by herself to a bookstore discussion (like a book club night, and this was the book) and she went and participated and didn't tell anyone that she was that mother.

KJ Dell'Antonia 25:48

Oh, that is really funny.

Sarina Bowen 25:50

It is priceless.

Jess Lahey 25:52

That is a very, very cool story. If you've read (KJ and I have, I'm assuming you have Sarina) there's a nonfiction book that she wrote a couple of years ago, she talks about her story, and her mom, and what they went through with her dad, and all of that. So that would be a really interesting story to explore. Well, the Lacey Crawford book that I was talking about, so much of this story that she tells exposes a lot of other people's stories, and I haven't had a chance to talk to her about it. I was gonna ask her about it, like how many of the names were different names? Did she change all of the names? Did she change some of the names? You know, it's really easy to figure out a lot of the details around some of the people unless she changed all those details and you know what class she graduated from from St. Paul's. I think you have to be really brave to do that. And I had a lot of thoughts after reading Notes On a Silencing. It's a fantastic book. We've DM'd a few times about some of the elements of the book because I was just so blown away by what an incredible job she did with this book, it's really, really good.

Sarina Bowen 27:06

Well, I'm reading it this month. Last night I talked to my book club into choosing it.

Jess Lahey 27:10

Oh, you did? Oh, good. I think you'll really like it. I think you'll really like it. It's definitely her story and the events of the past couple years with St. Paul's triggered sort of her going back into that story, sort of that idea of I thought I dealt with that, I thought I was okay with it, and then it re-emerged when people started suing St. Paul school recently. So it was another perspective. And because we live near there, it's something that's been in the news a lot for us. And so it was fascinating to read it from the perspective of someone who has gone through this with the school just you know, 30 years ago, 20 years ago, whatever it was. So anyway, I think you'll really like it. She does a delightful job. And she had written a fiction book as well, the admissions book, KJ, I believe you read, right?

KJ Dell'Antonia 27:58

Yes, yeah. I'd have to pull up the title of it, I don't remember. But I remember that it was very, very, very funny. And I liked it, it was about college essays. It was about someone who helped with college essays, and it was definitely a good read. So I'm not surprised this would be good.

Jess Lahey 28:16

She's a delightful writer, really good writer.

KJ Dell'Antonia 28:20

We've been just talking about all kinds of people who hop around genres. Writers worry that you can't, but I don't know, I think it's great. I definitely go to read the nonfiction of novelists that I like and will try the novel of a nonfiction writer that I like, so everyone else should totally do that, if you like my nonfiction.

Jess Lahey 28:50

I've been doing this outline of this novel that I'm thinking about writing - a different one from the one that I thought I was going to write and I'm curious to see what my writing looks like in fiction because I just don't do it. So I don't have a sense for what my writing is going to look like when I'm telling a more creative story. It's going to be an adventure for me. And whether or not it ever ends up on a bookshelf anywhere, I'm really interested to see what my writing looks like in a different format, in a different genre, and a different sort of sense.

Sarina Bowen 29:22

I can't wait.

Jess Lahey 29:24

Yeah, I'm excited.

KJ Dell'Antonia 29:25

So we've been talking a lot about what we've been reading. But let's get into the details of what we've really been reading this week after a small break. Listeners, you know we're about to get into what we've been reading, and we've been reading some good stuff. But have you ever thought about how those books get so good? Or maybe thought you could be a part of making an author's novel, memoir, or nonfiction as good as it could possibly be and get paid for the work. Author accelerator has a book coach training program that students describe as truly life changing. They dig into the mechanics, process, and emotion of coaching but they don't stop there. Their program also helps you turn coaching into a profitable business that fits into your life. Find out more at authoraccelerator.com.

Jess Lahey 30:32

Well you guys know what I've been reading. I read the Lacey Crawford, I've been having to devour these nonfiction books for some nonfiction book reviews that I am writing. And I'm experiencing that thing when you (I haven't had this happen in a while because I don't belong to a book club) get assigned a book, I'm immediately less interested in it than something that I'm allowed to read just because I want to read it. It's sort of that like high school English class phenomenon that I'm always resisting or trying to push back against as a teacher. So I feel like a student in high school again, it's like, but I don't want to read it. I didn't pick this book.

Sarina Bowen 31:26

I feel obligated to point out that you're probably getting paid for this. So you know, suck it up, Buttercup.

Jess Lahey 31:31

Exactly. And it's so hard. I'm so grateful to be getting paid for any writing right now that believe me, I am thrilled as I can be about reading these delightful books.

KJ Dell'Antonia 31:44

Well speaking of not wanting to read things, I have been reading I think I might have mentioned this, but it's probably in a future podcast because of the weird way that we've been recording lately. Sorry, behind the scenes glimpse everyone. Anyway, I've been reading Rodham By Curtis Sittenfeld, and I picked it up with excitement and read about the first 50 pages. Rodham is the story of what if Hillary never married Bill, basically. And I got really glommed down on is this real, how about this? How about this? Is this real? Did they really eat those donuts? And I just didn't know if I could keep going. But I went on Instagram and I was like, I'm reading this and I didn't really say that because it seemed sort of negative. But I was like, I'm getting really glommed down in the details. And everyone's like, just keep going, just keep going. So I did. And man, I'm glad I did because it is so good. And it is a tour de chutzpah that Curtis Sittenfeld managed to bring this thing off. I can't even imagine writing, I mean we were talking about sort of fictionalizing your own mother, but fictionalizing this totally famous person that we all admire and look up to. I'm just in awe of both the willingness to do that and also the way she pulled it off. Every detail. I mean, just everything drops so perfectly. It's really structured brilliantly. I just can't recommend it enough.

Jess Lahey 33:22

I feel like we've gone on this journey with you. Because early on in a text, you're like, Oh, this is just not working for me, and then in another podcast you sort of hinted at the fact that it was turning and so now we're on the other side of that and I feel like we've gone on this journey with you. It's a little bit like I remember hearing Helen Mirren interviewed about playing the Queen or playing someone who's currently alive and how much more of a challenge that is than playing an imaginary person. I can't imagine having just saying yes, this is what I'm going to do next, I'm going to select a person that exists.

KJ Dell'Antonia 34:07

Let me just say that if a dude had done this, and it was called McCain, he'd be winning prizes. And she should be. But I haven't seen it in a lot of places. And I think it's really well done. But I have another one, I have something else that I've been reading. I also just finished I'm Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness from Austin Channing Brown. And that one was interesting, both because it's Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness and that is a perspective that I don't get enough of, but also because it was really about her experience in working within Christian church and within Christian centered organizations, which is also a world that I know nothing about. And I guess it also might sort of fall into that category of - I kind of hesitate, because my experience of Christian organizations is just not something I'm super interested in. So sometimes when you're reading along in a memoir and it skews off into a religion that is not something that is yours you kind of feel like, well, this isn't really for me because that stuff's not for me. But I obviously kept going with it because it had all this other great stuff in it. And I was glad, it was really interesting to experience both of those worlds that I am not a part of. If you're looking for something to read along those lines, and especially if you are a part of a lot of Christian organizations, I'll bet it would be really, really juicy from that perspective. I didn't have any real way of knowing like, Oh, is that really true? Do people really you know, behave that way or say those things or sort of pretend to be interested and then sort of step back? But anyway, I recommend.

Jess Lahey 36:17

I will definitely put it on my list. I love hearing about books that you guys are loving. I get so many cool recommendations.

Sarina Bowen 37:03

Well, yesterday I received via FedEx two pool floats that I bought because they're exactly like KJ's. And I plunked one of them right into the pool and I got in there with my paperback copy of Don't You Forget About Me by Mhairi McFarlane, which is marketed as a romance novel with a really cute illustrated cover but wow, she is terrific. The writing is fabulous. There's a little prologue section from high school that is so perfectly high school that I have chills. I read three chapters in my pool float feeling I figured out the secret to life, basically. And I can't wait to flop myself back in there later today and and keep going.

Jess Lahey 37:58

When you put in Don't You Forget About Me of course Simple Minds comes up. I think I got a copy of that book in the mail. So I may just have to go downstairs and find it on my shelf. That's exciting.

KJ Dell'Antonia 38:18

I have her first one. You might have her first one. This one's pretty recent. This one's just come out, right?

Sarina Bowen 38:27

No, this is an earlier one.

KJ Dell'Antonia 38:30

Okay. I don't think this is the one I have.

Jess Lahey 38:33

It's funny because you remember when we were talking a bunch of episodes back about cover art and how a lot of you know like rom-coms/women's fiction are all with these drawings of people with ambiguous faces. I have found that I have a bunch of them in a wish list for audiobooks and I can't tell them apart. They are all just primary color people and especially the ones that have a dog, like a couple of them people have dogs and I think the trend for this sort of primary color faceless drawings of people may have gotten to the saturation point I think, because I'm starting to confuse them.

Sarina Bowen 39:13

Well, it's not going away anytime soon because stock photography needed a big bad refresh before COVID and certainly hasn't improved from half a year of lockdown. So those illustrators, they have some job security right now, let me tell you.

Jess Lahey 39:33

I will say that in terms of stock photography, you provide endless entertainment for some of the things that exist out there as stock photography, and moments when you say like, why would anyone ever need a picture of a man without a shirt on, and a seal holding a basket of apples? Alright, well I'm glad I got to talk about the whole feeling about the memoir stuff, because this makes me feel better. One of my favorite comments about writing memoir, and it comes from Abigail Thomas, and it's the one about you know, dig deep and be honest or don't bother. And I try to remember that as a mantra when I'm writing stuff that's highly personal, like this new book, The Addiction Inoculation. And I don't think I can do justice to that topic without being really personal, but boy it gets scary when it goes out in the world. You know that it's out there in the hands of people, not just like readers I admire, but people whose lives are part of the book as well. It's nerve racking.

KJ Dell'Antonia 41:16

I've got a few things to say. If you're not in our Facebook group, come get into our Facebook group and let's have a convo about this one - who's feeling exposed and like what's going on. If you're doing memoir, if you've got fiction that makes people feel like it's about you, I will try to remember to throw up a conversation starter. If I don't somebody else do it and let's get in that #AmWriting Facebook group and do that.

Jess Lahey 41:50

That's exactly what I was going to say too, because we actually put out some tax tips just recently. And that came from a question that came up in the #AmWriting Facebook group so it's a good place to be. Well, if you would like to get stuff like the tax tips, you can go ahead and sign up for our list over at Substack at the #AmWriting page.

KJ Dell'Antonia 42:27

You can do that at amwritingpodcast.com. Okay, that sounds great. Go there, it'll send you to all the other stuff and I am working on getting all of our great top fives and minisodes into the regular website as opposed to the Substack website.

Jess Lahey 42:46

Yep, I'm actually going to be recording as soon as we're done today. I'm going to be recording a new minisode to go out up on the website in a little bit. So there's all kinds of extra content that's up there. But until next week, everyone keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 220 #ComedicMemoir with Kari Lizer Jul 17, 2020

Kari Lizer is best known for her work in television, as writer and co-executive producer of Will & Grace and the creator of The New Adventures of Old Christine. When her essays about parenting took the shape of a book, she found that her real life provided more than enough material for a comedic memoir. Aren’t You Forgetting Someone?has it all - chickens, Kate Middleton’s bangs, psychics, and the promise of happy endings.

#AmReading

Jess: Beach Read by Emily Henry

Sarina: The Worst Best Man by Mia Sosa

Kari: Olive, Again by Elizabeth Strout

Subscription links and a transcript follow—but first, a preview of the #MinisodeMonday that will be dropping into #AmWriting supporter inboxes on Monday, July 20th: How an Editor Considers an Essay. Not joined that club yet? You’ll want to get on that. Support the podcast you love AND get weekly #BonusContent with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month.

To support the podcast and help it stay free, subscribe to our weekly #WritersTopFive email.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:00

Writers it's KJ here. Before we get to the interview, which is Jess and Sarina talking to the very funny Kari Lizer I wanted to share a little about our new sponsor, Dabble. I wrote my last book in a mad combination of Word and Scrivener and it worked fine. But putting the whole thing together in the end was hard and I accidentally left out a chapter of a draft confusing everyone. With dabble, the whole book is always just sitting there already compiled and together as a unit and easy to navigate around in as chapters or scenes. It is magical and it can't wait to make full use of it this time around. Give it a spin at dabblewriter.com and let us know what you think. Is it recording?

Jess Lahey 0:43

Now it's recording.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:45

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone trying to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess Lahey 0:49

Alright, let's start over.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:51

Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three.

Jess Lahey 1:02

Hey, this is the #AmWriting podcast with Jess Lahey and Sarina Bowen, KJ is off this week. This is the podcast where we talk about all the things - all the writing things, the researching, the editing. I'm just about to start editing today, actually. So we'll probably slip in and mention of that - writing romance, writing fiction, writing nonfiction, writing all the things we love to talk about. And this is definitely the podcast though, first and foremost, about getting the writing done. I'm Jessica Lahey I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and the forthcoming The Addiction Inoculation that will be out next year, April 2021. And you can find my work at the Atlantic, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and other lovely places like Airmail recently, actually.

Sarina Bowen 1:47

And I'm Sarina Bowen I'm the author of 35 romance novels. My most recent USA Today bestseller is called Sure Shot and you can find more about me at sarinabowen.com.

Jess Lahey 1:59

So can I just say one thing? I was I was tooling around on Facebook looking for something and all of a sudden, I noticed that you dropped like an additional thing to Sure Shot. And I simply do not understand when you write all the things. I don't understand how you write all the things, you write everything and you write stuff that you don't even tell us about, and launch it out into the world and it makes my head spin.

Sarina Bowen 2:22

Well, thank you, I think. Yes, I did have a couple chapter prequel that I put into an anthology that someone was putting together and it really wasn't the world's greatest accomplishment there, Jess, but thanks anyway.

Jess Lahey 2:39

Alright, well, we have a guest this week, and I'm really, really excited about this guest because we have found out that number one, we have some things in common that we need to talk about, but also because this book almost made me late for this interview because I was having so much fun reading it, I couldn't put it down. It is so funny. Without further ado, I would like to introduce Kari Lizer. Her new book is called Aren't You Forgetting Someone?: Essays From My Midlife Revenge? And, okay, we've talked before about getting blurbs and this woman, this book, she's got some blurbs on this book. It's a very funny book. She is a former executive producer and writer for Will and Grace. And that's going to figure into a little tiny bit of the conversation today. But Kari, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Kari Lizer 3:35

Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Jess Lahey 3:37

Such a delightful book. And it's not just because a lot of the action happens in Vermont and Sarina has written an entire series that is a romance series based completely on a fictional small town in Vermont. There are chickens, there are lots of animals. And so we've got that angle going on, but we we also have the devotedly introverted sort of thing going on, obviously the writer thing going on as well. So we're just really excited to talk with you today.

Kari Lizer 4:17

It's nice to have that in common. It's a specific thing for sure. Vermont people are a certain kind of people, I know that.

Jess Lahey 4:27

We're reading this book at a really interesting time because most of the book is about just the thrill people get (people like us) tend to get when someone says something is canceled. And everything's canceled right now. So how are you doing? We're recording this at the beginning of June, on June 11. So we've all been on our own or at least in close proximity to very few other people. How are you doing?

Kari Lizer 5:00

Well, I spent the first few months of this lockdown shut-in period in Los Angeles, which was very different than it feels here in Vermont. It was stranger there for sure. I had one of my kids home with me. And it was a little bit harder to navigate there. It wasn't that different lifestyle wise for me than my normal life though, because I do spend a lot of time at home. I'm an introvert, I write at home. I don't venture out unless I absolutely have to. But it did get strange and I did start to feel the walls closing in on me for sure. I mean, just the lack of outdoor space. I mean, because the trails were closed and the parks were closed. I have four dogs. Going outside with them, it just felt like we were just on top of each other a little bit. So made the decision to hop in a car and drive across the country with the four dogs and come to Vermont. Because there's more wide open spaces, so it's feeling a little bit like I've been released from prison a little bit. But, you know, there are other challenges here in terms of of being quarantined and you know, there's the 14 days here in Vermont that I have to isolate myself from other people and so, you know, it's challenging. Listen, I don't have it as bad as a lot of people have it, I have a lot to keep me occupied. And I can do my job here. I'm starting up a new TV show and I can do my writers room on Zoom. And it's just it's not that bad. I've had things to occupy me, so I'm pretty lucky as it goes, honestly.

Jess Lahey 7:06

Well, actually the fact that we're in the middle of this. We're in the middle of a country protesting right now over George Floyd's death, there's so much going on that has rendered... In fact, a couple weeks ago, we recorded a podcast where we just felt like our hearts weren't in it. And one of the things you write really beautifully about in this book is being able to write when other things in your life are not necessarily going the way you would like. In fact, you mentioned in the book that you were writing for Will and Grace at the same time that you had a divorce and you had your sister's death going on. So that sort of stuck out for me because at a time right now when I could be super productive, I'm finding it really, really difficult to put my heart in my work and I would love to know how you worked through some of that?

Kari Lizer 8:01

Well, I mean, I think it's easier when you have assignments, a television writer, I think it is a little bit easier under those circumstances because you have to, I mean, you have deadlines and those kind of things, I find it a little bit harder too under these circumstances, when I can write if I want to and I'm a lot less productive now. It was very strange that I left Los Angeles just as things were sort of bubbling up. And by the time I got here, the world had sort of exploded, I mean, I just left when COVID was happening. And then the protests hadn't really started yet. So I feel strangely isolated from all of that and it feels like things are happening so far away from me, so I feel very distracted by that too. I think it's certainly easier for me to write, obviously, when I have people waiting for things to come to them, you know. I mean, I'm a goody two shoes always, so I will always turn things in when people need them, but left to my own devices I can't always get it going either. I mean, sometimes it is hard to motivate myself I mean, I always have this fantasy that all I need is a cabin in the woods and then I'll sit and I'll churn out novels one after the other and I don't write a word. If I've ever rented a beach house or something with this romantic notion that I'm going to write things, not a word comes out of me at those kind of places, I need busy, I need chaos, I need something. The more that's going on the more I can't seem to write so...

Jess Lahey 9:28

Yeah, I'm deadline oriented, too. And Sarina, you know, self publishes her work and she does so much of the work herself and she's so good about self imposed deadlines. There was a great quote Shonda Rhimes at one point said, 'Writing for television is like laying tracks while you're actually in the train.' Is that an experience that rings true for you?

Kari Lizer 9:51

That's about right, yeah. There is an oncoming train at all times. It just feels like an impossible job and somehow it gets done. And I function really well under those circumstances. You know, the more pressure the better, from the book you can tell I when I had children underfoot, the younger the better, the more children the better. Throw a little cancer in there and then I I thrive. When I have less going on, and I have all the time in the world, and it's sort of leisurely, I can maybe write a chapter or two but I think I was sort of cut out for the television world because it is just writing under the most serious duress that you can imagine.

Sarina Bowen 10:39

Can I ask - is Aren't You Forgetting Someone? your first thing that you wrote that was intended to be a book with two covers on it at a bookstore?

Kari Lizer 10:49

It is and it didn't really start out that way. I took a little hiatus from television when my third kid went off to college, and I just I wanted to sort of do something different creatively. And I was part of this writers group because as we're talking about, I am deadline oriented and I found that I wasn't writing anything when I was left to my own devices. And so I found what was really helpful for me, was sitting around a table with other writers who were working on novels and essays and various kinds of writing. And I had to show up every week at this table. And it gave me a deadline of sorts that I wanted to show up with something. And so I started writing these essays not knowing what they were or where they were going to belong or just even I thought maybe it was a pilot, maybe it was a movie I just really didn't know I wasn't writing it for for anything except myself, except to have a different sort of creative experience. But I did do it in a group and that really helped me with that sort of accountability piece that I need to to keep myself moving forward. And then it just sort of piled up and and you know became this book but I didn't really know when I started what it was.

Jess Lahey 12:12

Well and it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary for you if this had turned into a script because the New Adventures of Old Christine that you also wrote was based on your life, correct?

Kari Lizer 12:23

Loosely, yeah. Sort of my fantasy of what my life might have been if I was better at my life, if I were Julia Louis-Dreyfus then yeah my life would look like that, but not quite. But yeah, loosely based on my divorce and those years after my divorce.

Jess Lahey 12:42

Our listeners love to hear sort of the the nuts and bolts, like the nitty gritty stuff about the writing, and how the words get on the page. And so you've got this group that's helping you get deadlines done. You're getting some essays out there. What's the point for you where you realize that this is a book and not a movie or a pilot?

Kari Lizer 13:01

Well, it was sort of at the encouragement of this group of people that I was with. Which I can't express enough how helpful that was to have feedback from a supportive group of people. For me, it was really valuable. Because I didn't know and I felt a little lost in it and I was insecure about it. It was just not a genre that I was used to writing and I didn't know, it felt embarrassing to me to write such personal stuff. It felt like I was writing my diary a little bit and it felt a little bit like who really cares about this stuff, and is it interesting, is it braggy, what is it exactly? And it was great to have that encouragement of other people saying, just keep writing, don't think about what people think about it, just keep moving forward, and don't stop down to think about the reaction to it. And that was really helpful to me and worry about what it is after the fact. And so when I looked at it, and then I was able to sort of put it together and it's like, oh, there is sort of a narrative here, there is sort of a theme. And I'm a huge fan of David Sedaris, for instance and I read a lot of essays, and I read a lot of comic essays in particular. And so I thought, Oh, well, that's sort of what this is seeming like and I got some outside people to say, 'Well, here's where there are holes in this narrative, and here's where you need to fill it in.' And I really took some advice from people who had some sort of objective eyes on it. And then I started sort of shaping it into a book as opposed to just a pile of what felt like diary entries. You know, I needed to sort of turn it into something that was more than just musings and try to tell a story with it.

Jess Lahey 15:05

Alright, so this is a publishing industry, nitty gritty question. So our co-host, KJ Dell'Antonia, she and I have the same agent and our agent represents nonfiction she just doesn't really do fiction. So in order to sell KJ's novel she had to pair up with another agent in the same agency that does fiction. So my question to you is, if you have an agent who you know has been representing you for your work in Hollywood, do you need to go to a new person in order to sell a book or can you use your same agent in order to sell to a traditional publisher?

Kari Lizer 15:40

Well, fortunately I had just gone to a new television agent in Los Angeles, but it was a giant conglomerate agency that has a lot of different arms. So I went to them and I sort of brought this pile of essays to them, and it was this conference room of suited men, you know. And basically, I felt like I was bringing them my uterus on a platter. And I was like, here I have this and I'm sure they were expecting me to bring them a television show because that's where I make the money. And that's where they make money. And I said, 'I have this and this is sort of what I'm really on fire about right now. Is there anything you can do with this?' And to their credit, they read it, they loved it. They said, 'Well, this isn't what we do. But our agency in New York, let's give it to the lead agency in New York, if they're interested, and they want to take it on great, and we'll give it our best shot. And so that worked out and the people in New York took it and gave me some advice about it. And when it went out the first time they sent it around and it didn't get picked up by anybody. And so then I took it back, and I worked on it some more, and I filled in what I thought were the sort of holes in it, and I realized it wasn't quite finished. And I kept writing and then I went out again with it same agents to their credit, they didn't give up on it. And then the next time around it found its home. So it was really a process.

Jess Lahey 17:10

That's really tough, to send something out that's been out and then you're gonna work on it for a little bit and send it out again, that's kudos to your agents because that's an incredibly difficult thing to do and something that most agents are actually pretty reluctant to do.

Kari Lizer 17:24

Yeah, I'm very grateful to them and for their sort of sustained belief in it because it was really a process and it was a business that I didn't know anything about. So I was completely in their hands and I had to trust them and just believe that it was gonna work out the way it was supposed to. So I think I was very lucky. And also in good hands with them that they kept the faith, honestly.

Jess Lahey 17:57

So you haven't always identified as a writer, you identified for a long time as an actor and I have to ask about the line in your book about the psychic Teresa who felt the vibrations in your keychain. You say you became a writer because of Teresa feeling the vibration in your keychain. And I have to know more, like where is that story?

Kari Lizer 18:24

Well I'll probably write that one someday I just was an actor from when I was a kid. I started when I was 11 going on commercial auditions, I lived pretty close to Los Angeles and my mother would drive me in and I started doing commercials and that was sort of it for me. I didn't go to college because I already knew what I wanted to be when I grew up and I just went directly into Hollywood. And I worked pretty consistently, I did television shows and pilots and I thought well this is worked out great and I made a living as an actress until I was about 30 years old and then it stopped. I mean, it came to a grinding halt in a way that was terrifying and then nothing, I mean just nothing and I slowly sold the house that I bought, the car, I mean just everything dried up, and I had nothing to fall back on. You know, as your parents tell you to have something to fall back on I had nothing, I had no skills. I couldn't even wait tables. I mean, when I lived in New York for two years, I got fired from every waitress job I ever had. I mean, I don't know how to do anything, honestly. And it was really scary. And I went to a psychic that somebody recommended and she said she had to hold on to my keychain. And she said that if I continued to be an actor, I would be moderately successful. But if I was a writer, I would be successful beyond my wildest dreams. I was so upset. First of all, it seemed like so much work, you know, it's just like, no, I don't want to be a writer that sounds horrible. But I thought, oh, okay, so you know, I didn't have any other choices. I mean, there was no other options. I was really in bad shape. I was dead broke. So I wrote, I was earning money at the time. My only skill was I could type, my only good subject in school was typing.

Jess Lahey 20:25

That's such a good starting place for the whole writing thing.

Kari Lizer 20:30

It is I mean, it's a great skill. And in fact, I was earning my rent at the time typing (because we were typing at the time) scripts for a friend of mine who was a writer. I was getting 50 cents a page to type his scripts up. And so I went home and I wrote a like a spec pilot and then I wrote a play, I just had to write a play. And I gave it to this friend of mine, who I was typing his scripts for, he liked it so much that he said, You know what, I'm going to put this up in a theater, I'm going to produce it and put it up in a theater. And we'll invite all the friends from showbiz that I know and all the ones that you know, and we'll see if we can get you a job I said, but I'm going to star it because what I really want is an acting job. And so I starred it, and he put it in theater, and I got offers to write, an agent came and said, 'I would like to represent you as a writer.' I didn't get a single acting offer, which is all I wanted, and it was devastating, but it started my writing career. Because of this person who believed in me, which is often how it starts, you know, somebody helps you out. And it was just crazy. You know, I had no business doing any of it. I didn't know if I could write I'd never tried to, but it was just pure desperation and then ultimately, just sort of dumb luck. And it just turned out. I think I'd absorbed enough. You know, I had read enough scripts, I acted in enough things, I think I had sort of absorbed structure and those kind of things by osmosis maybe a little bit. I don't know, who knew it could have turned out very differently, but I was very lucky.

Sarina Bowen 22:14

Well, that's how most novelists start, right? Like they've read a whole lot of novels. And they've sort of absorbed it. But I have two questions for you. The first one is if you could just slip me that psychic's contact information.

Kari Lizer 22:31

Yeah, I don't know what happened to her.

Sarina Bowen 22:35

The second one is, so it's well documented in Aren't You Forgetting Someone that your grown children are never going to ask your opinion about anything important, but if they did, if one of your three ungrateful humans came today and said, 'Okay, Mom, I want to be a writer. Should I write a book or should I write for TV?' How would you handle that question? Because a lot of our listeners are thinking about all the different ways they are accomplishing the writing dream and what's your thought about that?

Kari Lizer 23:13

Well, I don't think I would say one or the other. I think that writing is writing. And I think I don't think I found a big difference between writing this book and writing for television. I think the main thing that I brought to this book that I try to bring to television writing is telling my true stories, and I think that's when I have found success in both genres. So just trying to be authentic. So I would say, wherever that story seems to find its place. And honestly, I mean, I've had things that have started out as plays and it's like, oh, this isn't sort of finding its way as a play and it turns into a short story or it turns into something else. And I think sometimes not to know what it wants to be is okay, too. I mean, that's certainly my process a lot of times, that not sort of being too sure about what your endgame is, but sort of working your way through the process, and figuring out sort of what story it is you want to tell, and figuring out sort of what form it takes, and where you're going to end up later, like that's a question for later. But figure out what story you want to tell first I mean, for me that that works better. If I get all caught up in Oh, what network is it going to be on? Because I know a lot of people that do that in television, who would star in this or what network would it be on? If I start putting the cart before the horse I get completely blocked, then I can't think about the story or then things don't come to life for me anymore. I'm just not thinking about the right things anymore. I think I have to let the story the story speak first and then figure out those other details after the fact.

Sarina Bowen 25:27

Awesome

Jess Lahey 25:28

When I first started writing for a bigger audience, I remember my father read something that (you know, I started my writing, especially when I was a teacher on just this blog) and my father read something that was for suddenly for a bigger audience and he called me and he said, 'You know how much I love you. (and that's when you know something big is coming) I don't know who you're writing for all of a sudden, but it is not you.' And it was the best feedback I could have gotten because I suddenly had all these ideal readers clattering around in my head and like, how many comments am I gonna get. And it was one of the best bits of feedback I've ever gotten. Which is basically, just stop thinking about all those other people and continue to do for you. Which I have to say, before we get into the next thing I want to talk about really, really quickly one of the cool things about you and your writing - and I have to say also about Sarina because all three of us are very much people who like a lot of time by ourselves and a lot of quiet time and don't necessarily need to interact with other people all the time - and yet you and Sarina, your real gifts, at least in my opinion with Sarina, I don't want to speak for her obviously have to do with dialogue. And dialogue about connection. I mean, especially with Will and Grace, that entire show really was about the connection between these people and the action that happens and all of these inciting incidents and all that stuff, that's interesting. But what's really interesting about that show, it was the connection between the people and for Sarina, I mean, she writes romance, that's what this comes down to in the end. So I find it very interesting that two people who are perfectly happy spending a lot of time talking only to their animals or to inanimate objects in the room are so good at that interpersonal connection. I thought about the two of you a lot when I was reading this book.

Sarina Bowen 27:30

Well, we don't dislike interpersonal connection. We just like it in small doses.

Kari Lizer 27:37

Yes.

Jess Lahey 27:40

Before we to start talking about what we've been reading, we need to take a quick break, and we will be right back.

KJ Dell'Antonia 27:52

Before Jess, Sarina, and Kari tell you what they've been reading, let me ask you, what have you been writing? How's it coming along? We'd always love to hear about it in the #AmWriting Facebook group. But if you're stalled on your memoir, losing direction on your nonfiction project, or keep writing the beginning of your novel over and over again, maybe you should consider working with a book coach, you could get help with an outline, a draft, or the entire drafting process. And it could be just what you need to finally write the words the end, and actually mean them. Find out more at authoraccelerator.com.

Jess Lahey 28:37

Alright, we can start talking about what we've been reading. Kari, do you have a book that you would like to talk about that you've been reading recently?

Kari Lizer 28:45

Well, I just finished and it's not brand new, but I just finished Olive Again by Elizabeth Strout and I love those Olive Kitteridge books so much. I mean, I think I relate to that woman. I'm speaking of loners and cranky ladies. But yeah, so I just finished Olive Again and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Jess Lahey 29:08

I talk about her a lot as a person that I couldn't believe I was continuing to read because I hated her so much. In fact, we reread Olive Kittredge before we read Olive Again because I just love those books so much. Sarina, what have you been reading?

Sarina Bowen 29:28

Well, most recently I've been reading Aren't You Forgetting Someone by Kari Lizer. But the night before I read a book by a romance author named Mia Sosa with the best title ever, ever, ever. And the title of this book is The Worst Best Man. And of course, there's a wedding cake on the cover with the bride pushing the best man off of the top of it and it's just the cutest thing ever.

Jess Lahey 30:02

Yeah, I've needed cute lately. I'm still reading Ibram X. Kendi's How To Be An Antiracist and I find that I need to read that in short bits because it's really hard because I have to think about myself and what I can do to be better. And so on the polar opposite side I've been reading a bunch of sort of rom-com type of stuff and we texted quite a bit about (KJ and I especially) because we were reading at the same time about Emily Henry's Beach Read. Kari, I haven't read any other books like this, but it was really cute. It was a rom-com with two writers the romantic interest is by two writers and in two very different genres who sort of have this animosity/rivalry kind of thing and it was just adorable. And those books I've been doing as audio while I'm out tending my garden so I find myself laughing a lot in my garden which is good fun.

Kari Lizer 31:16

Oh, that's a good idea. Yes.

Jess Lahey 31:19

By the way, before we say goodbye I actually wanted to tell you that when you're reading Kari's wonderful book, Aren't You Forgetting Someone and you get to the part where it says that Martha Stewart taught her about b******s you need to understand that you've misread the word Maria as Martha.

Kari Lizer 31:42

Wait, did I say that?

Jess Lahey 31:46

I read it twice and I'm like, that can't be true.

Oh I wish it was true. That would be a good story.

That's the other fun thing about this book is there's so many juicy, there's obviously your psychic story, your John Edwards story and just a lot of really fun juicy stories in here and also as an animal hoarder, I really identify with your animal stuff. Thank you so much for giving us something to read that has been just been a way to retreat a little bit from the hard stuff because I think we need a balance of those things right now even when it's really important for us to face the hard stuff. It's also really important for us to have an escape to a place of laughter and comfort. And so I just I'm really grateful to you for that.

Kari Lizer 32:52

Thank you. I am glad that it felt like that and and hope that hard stuff gets a little less hard shortly is my my wish.

Jess Lahey 33:16

Alright. Well thank you everyone for joining us this week. And until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 219 Find Your Character's #WishSong with Susan Wiggs Jul 10, 2020

We have trouble believing you haven’t already heard of our guest this week, Susan Wiggs, but just in case—she’s the author of many many novels, a multiple #1 New York Times bestseller and an overall amazing storyteller. Her current novel, The Lost and Found Bookshop, is on sale now and her most recent bestseller, The Oysterville Sewing Circle, is just out in paperback.

We talk crafting a story, starting from the emotional journey versus the physical plot, building a character, choosing a setting and our collective addiction to writing books, and Susan reveals that she does indeed read fiction while she’s writing fiction—and it’s a good thing, too, because her reading list is long indeed.

Links from the Pod

Writing the Blockbuster Novel by Albert Zuckerman

This American Life, Promised Land (the “I Wish” song episode)

#AmReading (all Susan, and you’ll see why)

Aging in Place by Aaron D Murphy

Being Mortal by Atul Gawande

On Ocean Boulevard by Mary Alice Monroe

House Lessons by Erica Bauermeister

Untamed by Glennon Doyle

The Splendid and the Vile by Erik Larson

Sabrina and Corina by Kali Fajardo-Anstine

The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo by Taylor Jenkins Reid

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:00

Hey, fellow writers this week we've got an outright amazing conversation with Susan Wiggs. Many, many times bestselling author of many, many novels, who really knows how to construct a story. And when getting the work done doesn't just take talent and dedication, but an understanding of the craft of creating a story. If you'd like to work with someone who understands that craft, head over to Author Accelerator and look into finding the right book coach for your work, or if craft is your jam, learn more about becoming a book coach yourself at authoraccelerator.com. Is it recording?

Jess Lahey 0:36

Now it's recording.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:39

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone and try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess Lahey 0:43

Alright, let's start over.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:44

Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia. And this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast, the weekly podcast, about writing all things, fiction, nonfiction, short things, long things, pitches, proposals, everything you have to write before anybody lets you write anything. And in short, this is the podcast about sitting down and getting that work done.

Sarina Bowen 1:16

And this is Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of 35 romance novels. You can always find more about me at sarinabowen.com.

KJ Dell'Antonia 1:26

And I am KJ Dell'Antonia, the author of the novel The Chicken Sisters, and also the book How to Be a Happier Parent, former editor of the New York Times' Motherlode blog, and still sometimes a contributor there. And we are so excited to welcome our guest this week. This is the first guest we've ever had that has rivaled Sarina in prolificness. We're so excited to welcome Susan Wiggs. She is the author of (I think I counted 37 but as soon as I let her talk, I'm gonna check) novels, multiple number one New York Times' bestseller and an overall amazing storyteller. When you pick up a Susan Wiggs book, you know that you're getting a fully built world and a story that's going to grab you and hold you tight and that you're going to be sorry when it lets you go. Her current novel is The Lost and Found Bookstore. And she's also got another novel just out in paperback - The Oysterville Sewing Circle. That one's just out right now. Am I right?

Susan Wiggs 2:29

That's correct. It's just out in a paperback, the book club edition just came out.

KJ Dell'Antonia 2:35

Ooh, cool. I love the whole book club edition and this edition.

Susan Wiggs 2:41

I just love book clubs in general. So yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is such a thrill to talk to somebody who's not a fictional character.

KJ Dell'Antonia 2:51

Yeah, we don't do much of that right now either. They're either fictional characters or they live in our house, that's all we got. So yeah, we are really excited - so, how many books is it before I even get started?

Susan Wiggs 3:02

Oh, I knew you're gonna ask me that. And you know what? To be honest, I don't have a count. But I can tell you my first book was published in 1987. Huntington Zebra books, and I've published a book or two every year since. And so I've stopped doing the math. I just write my next book.

KJ Dell'Antonia 3:27

But we will ask, you just because our listeners always want to know. How did you get started? Tell us how that first 1987 book happened, travel back in time with us.

Susan Wiggs 3:40

You know what, you always remember your first time and I'll just leave it at that. I'll leave that to your imagination. But honestly, I was a young teacher just out of graduate school. I got myself through graduate school by reading really big, thick, romance novels, you know, the real bodice rippers all through the 80's. And so yeah, I had such a taste for them, and such an affection for them and a love for the form that I just wrote one. And I had no idea what I was doing. I wrote it on a typewriter. I didn't know about any writer's associations. I knew Writer's Digest, I was a subscriber to Writer's Digest, I always knew that I wanted to write and so I wrote a book called Texas Wildflower and I wrote it on a typewriter. It was this huge, unwieldy pile of pages. I was very proud of it, but I didn't know what to do with it. And so somehow, I wormed my way onto an editor's desk at Kensington Books, which had and probably still prints Zebra, Pinnacle, various ones like that and they're still up and going, and the editor's name was Wendy McCurdy, and she's still in the business. I believe she may be back at Kensington now. Anyway, she was delightful. You know, very young, probably as young as I was at the time, editor who called me up in the middle of a very busy life. I had a toddler, and dogs, and a house, and a teaching job. And I was very overwhelmed. And she called me in the middle of all that and said, 'We like your book, and we want to publish it.' And I was just floored. Yes, I was stunned. I didn't have an agent. And so I just said, 'Yes, where do I sign?' And so it's interesting that we would be talking about this right now because one of the things that I did because I didn't have a literary agent, I didn't really know how to negotiate any sort of contract. And one of the biggest blunders that I made that is turning out to be kind of a very funny and happy accident was I gave them the copyright back then. And I think now copyrights revert to the author if the book is out of print and unavailable for, I believe, three to five years. And I think I signed my name to something to say it was out of print and unavailable, but they had 16 years to reprint it. And in those 16 years, my books became rather popular. And so they never wanted to revert the rights to me because I would always say the book's not out, it's very old, don't you want to revert the rights to me? Because that way, the author controls his rights and creative control over that property and you know, you can resell it and things like that, but no, they kept hanging on to it. And so I'm sitting here, it is 2020 and I'm looking at a royalty check dated May 26, 2020 for that book, for Texas Wildflower that was first published in April 1987. Because they keep reissuing it, they still have it in print, they reissued it numerous times in different packaging. And as my books have evolved, the very original cover (you can probably find it on my website susanwiggs.com) was a very, very in your face bodice ripper cover. I just loved it, I thought was really cool. But as my books have become more mainstream and evolved into general fiction, or mainstream fiction, the covers look very upmarket now and rather sophisticated. It's basically the same book - at one point I did go in and do some light editorial work, and, you know, cringing the whole time because obviously after you know, 50 something books, I'm not that same writer that wrote Texas Wildflower - and so I had some rookie moments in that book, many of them, and yet readers still, they're drawn to something about that book. So, you know, it's still in print. So thank you, Kensington Books for keeping me alive on your list.

KJ Dell'Antonia 5:40

That's a great story. And I love that it is still out there. And the cover thing is really funny because we have talked to a lot of authors and we've seen that same evolution many times. And I know Sarina and I are both really fascinated by cover art and why publishers and authors pick one style over the other and the new trend towards the sort of drawings instead of actual pictures of people.

Susan Wiggs 8:48

All authors are obsessed with cover art. You know, even before I was published, I was designing the cover in my head, and I'm terrible at it, but I'm always gratified when I see the way that my books go out into the market because usually it's spot on, there have been some turkeys in my repertoire - no fault of mine or the publisher, sometimes they just don't turn out well, but the new book, The Lost and Found Bookshop, did you guys get a copy of it? Or the advanced reading copies?

KJ Dell'Antonia 9:23

Yes, and I really, really love it. But do you know what, my copy doesn't have a cover. So I haven't seen it.

Sarina Bowen 9:32

It's beautiful, though. I love the cover.

Susan Wiggs 9:35

Well, the journey - that cover went through so many iterations. And the reason is that they try to build and this is a really great thing about publishers, if they're committed to an author, they really try to build you as a brand. And so you don't want each cover to be so unique that it doesn't even look like it could be by the same author. And so I had a rather good hit with The Oysterville Sewing Circle last year, and one of the big pieces and one reason that that book really struck a chord was it had an incredibly striking cover. It was like stark white with this blood red spool of thread on the front with a sharp pin sticking through it. And they wanted to build on that. But I wrote about a bookshop, so there's no sharp needles or anything. And so we really struggled with what this new book should look like so that it kind of accesses the spirit of the previous book, but also is inviting and beautiful enough to attract new readers as well. So I hope this cover does it. It hasn't hit the shelves yet, so I guess we'll see.

Sarina Bowen 10:43

It's very beautiful.

KJ Dell'Antonia 10:45

Yeah, I agree. And I can see how it looks with The Oysterville Sewing Circle, I've just pulled it up.

Sarina Bowen 10:52

It's a lovely analogy to that other book but I also noticed that your that Oysterville has a new cover, too. Which is also very beautiful, and sometimes publishers do that. If they don't like a cover, but sometimes they do it just to catch the eye of people who didn't grab it the first time.

Susan Wiggs 11:12

Yes, there's been three iterations of the Oysterville cover. The first one with a big spool of thread was the hardcover. And then there was a mass market paperback that came out in January. And because of the timer in the pandemic time, it was widely available only in essential markets like Walmart, the places that could stay open during the pandemic. And so it sold like wildfire. In March, it was the number four New York Times' paperback. And so there was this little paperback edition of it and then they decided for this summer to do a premium paperback, they're called trade size paperback, and it's a bigger edition and they add extra content in the back. I think there's a reading group guide, and article, and a recipe, and some other materials back there to give reading groups something to chew on. And then they decided, let's use a new image on this cover and the one that they did on that edition was actually a rejected hardcover look, you know, they they tried several looks, and they knew it was a pretty look, but they wanted to go out in trade paperback with that one. So no effort is ever wasted. That's what I am finding out. Yeah, my agent calls it four bites at the apple because the fourth bite is the audio book. And audio books are quite a big category these days and there was a slump during pandemic but as things are opening and people are going back to work and commuting again, there's an upturn in audio sales.

Sarina Bowen 12:12

Mm hmm. Yes, I definitely felt that audio slump in April.

KJ Dell'Antonia 13:04

I want to say, You have so many books under your belt and you were talking about how that first one is very, very different from the writer that you are now and we wanted to talk about how you go about now, structuring a new story. Because your stories are so - I've only read your later stuff, so I didn't read the earlier stuff. Your stories now are so tight, and they really don't have a lot of extraneous stuff, and I really would love to hear where you start from and I guess we'll start with that. Where do you start when you're looking to start a new book?

Susan Wiggs 13:54

That's one of those things that probably didn't change a lot from the very beginning. What inspires us, you know, something has to grab you, and it's almost visceral. And for example, in The Lost and Found Bookshop, it was a very stark moment that I had. I was speaking with some elderly people that lived at my mother's assisted living place, and I'm in charge of my mom's elder care, she now lives with me. And so I do a lot of speaking with groups like that. And one question that I love to ask older people is, what if you got to have a do over, you know, what if you got to make a different decision in your life? And so, somebody said something like, 'I would have been a meteorologist, but women weren't allowed to do that back then.' And I thought, wow, you know, I want to write about somebody who does get that opportunity. You know, she does get to walk away from her very steady, predictable, corporate job and life. Unfortunately, what drives her to that point is very tragic, but she does get there. And suddenly she gets to make a new blueprint for her life. And so I was very inspired by that. And I realized that with every book, even from that very, very first one, it's a moment of profound change in a character's life, whether it's a decision that she has to make or some situation that's forced on her. And so I'm most fascinated by that. And it's always, you know, my characters, there's a lot of variety. They come from all walks of life, but she's usually the smartest person in the book, but she doesn't know it. That's the one thing I would say they have in common, but from there, the process has become not a routine for me, but definitely a journey that has familiar signposts, you know, I have to know my character and I get to know her in ways that come to me subconsciously or I consciously research her world. I build her world around her, what did she do? What does she fear? What was her family of origin? Like that's huge for me, because I believe that people, as adults are the sum of their family of origin, good, bad, indifferent, or usually a mixture of everything. And I sort of build the character, psychologically and physically, that way. And at that point, I kind of have a sketch. It's usually written down in sketchy notes, and then I figure out what does she want, what is her utmost desire? And I try to figure out what that is and then find ways for her to not be able to have that. I know, it's kind of mean, but that's where the story comes from. Because people read for the struggle, I do, you know, somebody wants something, you know, Dorothy wants to get back to Kansas or Luke Skywalker wants to destroy the Death Star. Whatever, the main character has to want something that is profoundly important to them. Whether it's you know, to revive a failing bookstore and look after her elderly granddad, or to create a women's support group for domestic violence survivors, which is The Oysterville Sewing Circle. There has to be a really powerful want that I believe I relate to and readers might relate to and once I have that, I'm off to the races. I sort of pick the setting, and I populate her world, and I create a plot, and I write an outline. And I say outline, it's really just a 5-10 page present-tense narrative that I then pitch to my literary agent and my editor, sometimes separately, sometimes, simultaneously and they usually have some feedback for me. I have a writing group that I meet with regularly here on the West Coast up in Puget Sound, which is where I'm broadcasting from. And through that process, I get a roadmap for my book and then I kind of disappear with my pen and paper for about six months and I do write with pen and paper it's kind of old school but it keeps the distractions at bay while I'm drafting the story.

KJ Dell'Antonia 18:41

Wow, I want to come back to drafting with pen and paper. But Sarina and I often talk about (I'm only on like novel number two in terms of anything I'm going to try to sell) but...

Susan Wiggs 18:53

Then you are light years ahead of 99% of everybody else, believe me.

KJ Dell'Antonia 18:58

And I don't discount my treatment I'm super excited, my debut is coming out this summer, everything is going great. And I'm just literally, like, painful minutes away from giving the draft of the second book to my agent so we can figure out if maybe we can go out with it before the first one comes out.

Susan Wiggs 19:23

You know, every writer is convinced that all the other writers have the answer. And we always want to pick each other's brain.

KJ Dell'Antonia 19:29

Yes, it's easier for everyone else.

Susan Wiggs 19:30

I want to hear how everybody else does it because I'm doing something wrong because I'm so stuck right now.

KJ Dell'Antonia 19:36

Well, we often talk about whether you start from the emotional story or the plot story and it sounds like for you, it's almost always the emotional story.

Susan Wiggs 19:46

Yes, because I have to have some sort of connection. Otherwise, I'm just writing a work report. And there's also something that really resonated with me, it was on that one of the very first podcasts of history This American Life, probably familiar with it, with Ira Glass. I don't remember the the specific episode but he talked about something called the wish song that appears in every Disney animated musical. The main character looks out at the landscape whether it's in the little French town for Beauty and the Beast or in the wishing well for Snow White or whatever and they sing a song, and the song expresses their wish. And so I don't give my character a wish song but I look for that deeply held emotional and sentimental desire, you know, the yearning that the characters expresses. And when you build the story around the character, then her emotional journey is really the plot. She has to do something she has to be in a world in a situation but her emotional journey is really where I go to get my deepest pieces of the story.

KJ Dell'Antonia 21:39

And then when you're trying to take that emotional journey and marry it to a physical journey. Do you generally know where you're going from the beginning? Is it hard to figure out what physical journey will best tell that emotional story? I'm sure you're really good at by now...

Susan Wiggs 22:00

Well i don't know but I do know that it's the fun part for me because I love to explore different settings. There are some writers who go back to the same setting again and again and it really works for them and they get known for being a writer of a certain region or something like that. For me, I love to travel and I'm such a fan of world travel. So I love to find what will bring out the deepest aspects of this character. Is it a city, is it a beach, is a lake, is it somewhere out in the countryside? What time period is it and so I have all these different explorations that I do where I find the perfect pairing. Because some of my stories, like The Oysterville Sewing Circle, it could take place anywhere in the world. It's a woman on a career path, who has a big complicated life situation, and she ends up forming a group for domestic violence survivors, but I ended up setting it in the most remote town in the most remote piece of beach on the Washington coast called Oysterville, because I felt like that was a metaphor for you know, this woman going out on a limb. And on the other hand, The Lost and Found Bookshop, I wanted a bookshop on like the cutest vintage street in San Francisco. Usually my setting is a place that I would love to be, a place I would love to visit. Some of my favorite books are books that make me want to go there, want to be there. So I've got a stack on my desk right now - I've got Ocean Boulevard, and there's a beach picture, and I've got hello summer, and there's another beach. We've got a theme going here. So the setting is something that I hope will play up aspects of the story and character in a metaphorical way. And so that's one of the things and then the other thing that I love playing with is, as a writer, we get to live so many different lives, we get to have so many different jobs. And so every main character I've ever written has a job that I fantasize about. She's a photographer, she's a dancer, she's a writer. Well, I don't fantasize about that, I know the grim reality of that, but I've always wanted to be a bookseller. And so The Lost and Found Bookshop was gratifying for me to write about that. But we're very lucky because we get to experience these things vicariously through our research and through the people that we write about. So it keeps it very exciting and fresh. We don't go back to the same job day in and day out.

Sarina Bowen 25:08

Right. And a bookseller is an interesting observer of humanity in terms of who comes in to look at what. That's a really durable archetype, which is amazing.

KJ Dell'Antonia 25:24

Hey, listeners, KJ here, before Susan tells you what she's been reading, let me tell you, that's a lot. Let's talk about what you're writing, or rather where you're writing, Sarina and I have been loving our new Dabble Writer software. I've already raved about how intuitive it is, and how much we love the plotting tool. But since this episode is about beach reads, and I hope you're finding a way to indulge in a summer getaway, I want to tell you that another cool feature of dabble is that you can use it anywhere and on any device. Online, offline, PC, Mac, Chromebook, Mobile, they all work and they're always synched up. So the edits you jotted into your phone yesterday are right there on your desktop today. We really think you'll like it and we'd love to hear what you think. So check it out with a free trial at dabblewriter.com and then get in touch.

Sarina Bowen 26:25

But I wanted to take you back a second to the Disney wish song because that was really interesting to me. I'm actually not a big Disney watcher, as my kids are a little older now but, I hadn't really realized that before. And I love that you start from the character's wish. I find when I start, and I'm wondering how you get past this, but sometimes does that wish feel a little bit thin to you until you really dig in. It's like the chicken and an egg of character conflict.

Susan Wiggs 27:03

Absolutely, totally. And I'm always so envious when I open a book, and the character has this life or death problem or situation, because my books are really personal and they're kind of intimate and they're very much about a woman's desires in her everyday life and she's not out saving the world or vanquishing bad guys or something like that. And so my stories - until I really dig into them - feel a little every day, a little mundane. And so I'm very sensitive about that and it possibly makes me work harder, all the harder on the aspects that are really going to bring the story to life for the reader and really going to get the reader involved and behind the character. And with The Lost and Found Bookshop, one of the things that the publisher did is they sent out a lot of advance reading copies to working booksellers, or actually furloughed booksellers because of the time that we're in, and the feedback that they got was so extraordinary that they ended up making a deck of quote cards with feedback from these booksellers. And it was really extraordinary to see how they experienced this book and what their feedback was. And so even though it was a woman who doesn't consider herself anything special, she was really special to these readers. So I'm really hopeful that when the book goes out into the world and is not my baby anymore, the readers will relate to that.

Sarina Bowen 28:51

That's wonderful. And as you point out, those of us who write emotional journeys, you know, some days doesn't it seem super tempting to just kidnap your heroine on the first page?

Susan Wiggs 29:02

Yeah, it does really and you know, have her like swept away by pirates or something just to get the action going, when instead she's got to give a presentation at work and it sucks and, you know, something like that. Actually, that's interesting that you brought that up because my original opening scene of The Lost and Found Bookshop was pretty much exactly that. She had a work situation at her corporate job and it does not go well. And it's very important to her. But I was concerned that the readers might not hook right into her because she's a little challenged by the situation and she's not a warm, fuzzy person in that moment. And that's a little risky to do, because you want your reader to like your protagonist right from the start. And so, I was apprehensive about doing that. So what I did is I added and this is something I sometimes do, I sometimes don't, I added a prologue. And the prologue put her in the most emotionally stressful situation I could find for her at that moment, so there's like just a one page prologue, it's really quick, but it's like, everything that I wanted the reader to know about this character, so that when they turn the page, and there she is in her work meeting, and she's sweating and nervous and that sort of thing, they can relate to her in a different way. So that was actually a writing craft moves that I made, you know, a lot of writing is inspiration and it's art and it's talent. But a good other segment of it is just knowing how to manipulate your craft and steer your craft towards the best experience for the reader.

Sarina Bowen 30:59

It's been Powerful to realize at some point in your development as an author that you have got the spotlight in two hands and you can point it wherever you want.

Susan Wiggs 31:10

It is and hopefully we know what to do with that spotlight. That's generally what revisions are for, right?

KJ Dell'Antonia 31:19

Yeah. I sometimes find myself just thinking, I don't know, it felt kind of like this last time and it kind of worked last time. So I'm just hoping it's working now.

Susan Wiggs 31:32

Yes. And it's hard when you're deep in the weeds of your draft of your novel, it's really, really hard to have the perspective that ultimately the reader is going to have and sometimes you just have to forge ahead on faith.

KJ Dell'Antonia 31:48

So when you are lost in those weeds do you find yourself going back to that 5-10 page narrative that you mentioned at the beginning?

Susan Wiggs 31:56

Um, no, what I usually do is go pull weeds in my garden or hike with the dogs or something, and try to walk away from it for a bit. And then I also do more research, a lot of times I'm stuck at a spot in the book, and I just need to read more about the situation, you know, whether it's more articles about elder care or more articles about this Spanish American War, which has a very weird, kind of interesting little spotlight in the book. So sometimes I just do more research. There's a very good book, there's so many good writing books, but one of them that was quite instructive to me a million years ago, it was called Writing the Blockbuster Novel by Al Zuckerman. He was (maybe still is) a big agent in New York, and he was Ken Follett's agent and he talks about when you get blocked the first thing you should do is go back and do more research into your setting, and your situation, and into the character's job. And I don't know that that resolves it every time for me, but it's very helpful.

KJ Dell'Antonia 33:11

I love books like that. I love books that at least just tell me something to do when I'm stuck, anything, just just give me something I can get my fingers into.

Susan Wiggs 33:24

Yeah, I'm a writing book junkie. I have probably 16 linear feet of books on writing and I have my favorites but there's always something that I can glean from most of these. I don't always work through them cover to cover but I love browsing through them, that's always inspiring to me as well.

KJ Dell'Antonia 33:48

I love hearing that because I am so there. I love stuff like Save the Cat Writes a Novel and Write Your novel in 90 days and it doesn't have to be great. I don't know, I like dipping out and finding a roadmap from time to time, I think.

Susan Wiggs 34:06

Yeah. It goes back to writers being convinced that every other writer has a secret and they're hiding it from us.

KJ Dell'Antonia 34:14

I do have the secrets to how other people can write them that turn out to be the problem. Well, this is a great time to shift into talking about what we have been reading. In every episode, we like to just shout out something that we've been enjoying lately. And so I hope you've had some time to read and have something in mind that's been keeping you entertained when you're not writing right now?

Susan Wiggs 34:46

Absolutely. I'm always reading and I've always got a couple of books going - one on the nightstand and one in the living room and one wherever I happen to be. And right now some of my books reflect where I am in my life. I think I mentioned that my mom has moved here, she's 90, she's a bit high maintenance right now. So I'm reading. Let's see, I've got a stack here. I'm reading Aging in Place by Aaron D. Murphy. Not very interesting, except when you need it. But the other one that I just love, and I've read it before, but I'm rereading Being Mortal by Atul Gawande. Medicine and What Matters in the End. And then for light hearted reading, I have the new Mary Kay Andrews, Hello, Summer, was just published. And a good friend of mine, Mary Alice Monroe has a new book out called On Ocean Boulevard. And it's like the ultimate summer read. It looks like I haven't started it yet, but I'm looking forward to that one. I have a book here that is a memoir. Because one of the things that my husband does, he does a lot of things, he's a designer, but one thing that he's been doing is he's been renovating old houses. And he's not really a flipper because he renovates them beautifully and then sells them or rents them. But anyway, I'm very preoccupied with old houses these days. So I found this book House Lessons by Erica Baumeister, who's written some of my favorite books. She wrote a book called The School of Essential Ingredients that I loved. And this is a memoir of restoring an old house called House Lessons: Renovating a Life.

Sarina Bowen 36:58

And then for my birthday my husband got me Untamed by Glennon Doyle, amazing, amazing memoir about a woman's very extraordinary journey.

KJ Dell'Antonia 37:15

I'm in the middle of that one might now myself.

Sarina Bowen 37:18

She's a wonderful writer and then I bought well because Father's Day is coming up and and Jerry is not my father, but his sons are probably going to forget. So I bought him the new Eric Larsen, The Splendid and the Vile, which is a history of Churchill during World War Two. And I just love Eric's books and Eric's a good friend of mine and so I tease him I say that he's everybody's father's favorite writer. You could always count on somebody's dad liking an Eric Larson book, just like you can always count on somebody's mom liking a Susan Wiggs book.

And then two more on my nightstand. This one is a collection of stories called Sabrina and Kareena, there was a there's a lot of controversy about a big book that was out earlier this year called American Dirt. And it focused some attention on Latino writers or Latin ex-writers. And so I decided that I did not have enough on my shelf and so a bookseller recommended Sabrina and Kareena by Kali Fajardo-Anstine. But it won the National Book Award and the stories are just lovely. I love them. And then finally, I just started this morning over coffee The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, by Taylor Jenkins Reid and If you haven't heard of her, you will soon because her book, which was called Daisy Jones and The Six is about to be a very big series on, I think Amazon Prime, or maybe Netflix, and quite, quite the big hit. And I adored that book as well. So I know I'm gonna like this new one. And you wonder with all these books that I'm reading, do I have time to write? No, I don't. Do I have a deadline? Yes, I do.

KJ Dell'Antonia 39:26

We fully understand.

Sarina Bowen 39:29

But you know what, reading books keeps the craft alive. As a writer, you read a book differently than just a reader. And I say just a reader with a lot of respect, but it's kind of like my husband's an apparel designer. And he can look at any garment and see what it took to make that garment and he knows a lot of technical things about it that the casual person wouldn't even know and I think the same can be said, of writing and it is a little harder for me and probably you guys to, to really get into a book. Just because we're also noticing things that are not supposed to be noticeable.

KJ Dell'Antonia 40:14

Every so often I'll be like, Oh, I bet that was a major subplot at some point, there's a reason that that dog is a German Shepherd or whatever, you know, and but now there's not and you can go in and out of that mode, right? Well, so it I think rather than say anything that I'm reading, just because we have a great list here, I'm gonna just ask you one last question, which is - do you read fiction while you're writing it?

Susan Wiggs 40:49

Always? Yes, I do.

KJ Dell'Antonia 40:52

We do, too! So many people don't - or say they don't.

Susan Wiggs 40:56

Um, I would probably go through withdrawal symptoms if I couldn't read fiction, and so for some reason, it's not a problem for me personally to distinguish what I'm writing from what I'm reading. And you know that I don't know if that's true for everybody. But it doesn't seem to be a problem for me. Maybe it's telling that one of my first things that I remember writing for publication was when I was in seventh grade, they decided to publish a book report that I had written in the newspaper because I was supposed to do a book report on Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck. And I was so destroyed by the ending of that book that I rewrote the whole ending of the book, and that was my book report. So my seventh grade teacher thought that it was interesting enough that you know, she published it in the newspaper. So that was one of my first publishing credits. I was rewriting John Steinbeck. So, I don't know maybe you need maybe you need that level of arrogance to kind of push your way into publishing.

KJ Dell'Antonia 42:06

I think that you predicted your own future. Well, we have to respect your time but we are so grateful that you came and did this. I think this was a fantastic conversation about writing. I enjoyed it so much. Thank you.

Susan Wiggs 42:21

Thank you so much. I'd love talking shop with you guys. You're amazing.

KJ Dell'Antonia 42:25

It's great. So for our listeners, you're definitely going to want to look for The Lost and Found Bookshop and also maybe take a look at The Oysterville Sewing Circle. So, Sarina you want to take us out with our with our always final saying?

Sarina Bowen 42:56

Until next week everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 218 The #Indie-TraditionalTradeoff Jul 03, 2020

This episode springs from a question asked in the #AmWriting Facebook group (if you’re not in it, you should be): Sarina has talked about her decision to be independently published, but we’ve never heard from Jess and KJ about why they go the traditional route.

We discuss the three things you should think about when making the Indie/Traditional call, why you need to think hard about airport bookstores and finding the print ratio—and the good and bad reasons for making this choice.

#AmReading

Sarina: Boyfriend Material by Alexis Hall

KJ: The Exit Strategy by Lainey Cameron

Jess: The Mountains Wild by Sarah Stewart Taylor

(listen to the #AmWriting episode with Sarah here)

Here’s what we don’t always say: Man we love recording the podcast. But every hour spent on it is an hour not writing! Our production costs are now covered by our lovely (and carefully chosen) sponsors, but our time in pulling it all together is supported by you, our listeners. We’d love it if you joined that team (if you’re not already on it!)

Supporters get weekly #WriterTopFives like The Top Five (Free) Ways to Get Your Shiny New Book Cover in Front of People’s Eyeballs or #Minisodes like Don't Make the Same Mistakes Twice—and thanks to the magic of substack, those minisodes drop right into your pod-player once you’re set up. Want in? Click the button.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:00

Writers, it's KJ. The #AmWriting podcast is excited to tell you about our new sponsor, Dabble Writing software. We invited Dabble to join the #AmWriting team because we are in love with the plotting tools and intuitive interface. And I want to tell you something else I love about it, what they call the focus fade. I barely even noticed when it first started to happen, but any details that are open in the sidebars of your Dabble document fade away automatically as you write, leaving you with nothing but a beautiful clear space to work in until you need them and send your cursor in that direction, then they're back in a flash. It makes for a great distraction-free writing environment. Find out more and do a free trial at dabblewriter.com. Is it recording?

Jess Lahey 0:47

Now it's recording.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:50

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone trying to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess Lahey 0:54

Alright, let's start over.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:55

Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three.

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia. And this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things, fiction, nonfiction, books, essays, pitches, proposals long form, short form. In short, this is the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done.

Jess Lahey 1:25

Hi, I'm Jess Lahey, and I am the author of The Gift of Failure and the upcoming The Addiction Inoculation, which will be out in April of 2021. And you can find my work in lots of places, including the Atlantic, The New York Times, and Washington Post.

Sarina Bowen 1:39

And I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 35 romance novels. You can always find my work at sarinabowen.com or wherever e-books are sold.

KJ Dell'Antonia 1:52

I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I'm the author of the novel, The Chicken Sisters, which you heard it here first is now not coming out until December at the earliest. But that's okay. Really, totally fine, whatever. I'm also the author of How to Be a Happier Parent, the former editor of the New York Times' Motherlode blog, still sometimes a contributor there. And I'm just wrapping up a revision of a draft of my next (hopefully) novel. So that's what I'm doing. And I should say that I am not recording where I normally record because, you know, I lost the the officemate battle of of the the work at home universe.

Jess Lahey 2:45

I know we have a topic today, but before we get to the topic, I just wanted to say, KJ mentioned that she just finished a draft. And it has struck me that I knew from the beginning from a long time ago that your deadline for that first draft of the next book was June 1. And it has been a crazy, crazy time. This was a self-imposed deadline. No one made you do this by this by this June 1 thing, and yet you hit it and I just I don't know if I'd had a chance to tell you this before but I was just so impressed that given everything that's going on and the fact that it was a self-imposed deadline, that you made it

KJ Dell'Antonia 3:52

Well thank you. It probably should be said that it was not the first deadline. I was looking back at my bullet journal and noticing that in April, it had draft to Karen (that's my agent) as a goal. So it took at least an extra month beyond what I was hoping. But, I did get it done. I did get a draft to her. She's made some comments, which were extremely helpful. And I have done the hardest part of the revisions and I expect to have the revisions back to her this weekend. And then we shall see if it's time to try to sell it or time for me to just take another pass.

Jess Lahey 4:37

It's exciting. It is super exciting.

KJ Dell'Antonia 4:39

It is. I'm feeling really good about it. But you know, ask me tomorrow.

Jess Lahey 4:43

Who wants to announce our topic today?

KJ Dell'Antonia 5:02

We have an actual topic. This is how people know we're not a scripted podcast, we could be because we could have like this really smooth flow could be like, and Jess will say, and I can tell podcasts that are like that. And it isn't that I don't love them. It's that I'm too lazy, I think.

Jess Lahey 5:19

They're very time intensive and I have to say from the beginning we knew what we wanted out of a podcast. This is what we wanted. So welcome to our world.

KJ Dell'Antonia 5:29

Well, somebody asked on the Facebook group, I think and if you're not in our Facebook group, you totally should be. Someone said, 'We've heard Sarina discuss her decision to go indie, but we've never heard Jess and KJ, talk about their decision to go traditional.' And also, Sarina has been traditionally published in the past as well. So, we thought we'd just talked about that.

Jess Lahey 6:00

There are very specific reasons, but it also challenges sort of the status quo, which, you know, get five years ago even, when Sarina started this, you know why you would choose to go traditional isn't a question anyone asked just because there wasn't the landscape that there is now. And we wouldn't have had our amazing role model of Sarina Bowen to look at at the time. But I mean, you're so good at it. The nice thing about having you as a friend is I don't ever say she makes it look easy, you do make it look easy, but I know how much work you put into this. And it's a mind boggling amount of work to do self publishing well, and to do it the way you do it. So that's part of the equation for me, but I love the fact that we can even ask this question now of, you know, why do you go traditional versus self publishing because a couple of years ago it would have been a really clear cut decision.

Sarina Bowen 7:02

That's true. I mean, I knew people in 2014, 2013, who were turning down traditional contracts for self publishing. But that was a super rare thing to do. And those people, you know, had extraordinary circumstances and extraordinary insight that, you know, most of us didn't have. And if you go back 10 years, the traditional route was always the right choice. And now the landscape has changed so much that it is sometimes the right choice. But now there's a more interesting decision matrix associated with with who goes traditional and who does not.

Jess Lahey 7:51

Well, and I remember, about 10 years ago, there was some story of a woman who had a I can't remember what her name is now, but she had, I think, a fantasy series that she had self published. And the big success story was that she was able to get a three book deal with traditional publishing so she no longer had to slum it over in self publishing. And that was seen as a huge success story. But that's not the case these days. I mean, there are a lot (especially in fantasy or romance) that would look at that and say, 'Well, why would I go over to traditional publishing if I have the platform, and she was very successful, which was the reason she got the deal in traditional publishing.

Sarina Bowen 8:33

I do remember that story. And honestly, the reason that it was such a big story is because the numbers attached to it, I believe she had a seven figure deal on that book.

Jess Lahey 8:47

Yeah. Well, I brought up the fantasy and romance thing. And Sarina, could you address why I brought those two categories up?

Sarina Bowen 8:55

Absolutely. So I have identified sort of three major ways of thinking about an author's approach to self versus traditional. And I feel like the one that you're referencing has to do with gatekeeper's audiences. So romance and fantasy readers tend to select their books right on their phones from the Amazon store or from the Apple books app. And they're not really using gatekeepers for book recommendations. Maybe they're even using Goodreads for this or some sort of crowd-sourced decision making process about how to pick their next genre fiction read. And so it's those places where readers have stopped looking at who the publisher of a book is, where independently published books have been so successful. So one of the first questions you're going to ask yourself when you think about this question is, am I in a gatekeeper genre or niche. So if school librarians would be primary in spreading the word about your book, then you know maybe self-publishing is not for you. If you are in an area of publishing where trade reviews are going to really matter, then traditional publishing is the way to go if you want that starred review from Publishers Weekly because you have an informed decision about how that is going to help your book get seen then yes. So also, if you want to be in a big box store, if your book really is perfect for the end cap at Target, and you know you fit right there. Well, the only way to get into that big box store on the end cap at Target is to be published by a pretty big publisher. So that's a tricky bargain, as it turns out, because I had a traditionally published book with Penguin more than 10 years ago. And it did not get picked up by Target. They told me it was seen as too East Coast. So, I missed the end cap at Target based on the topic in a way that I couldn't really have foreseen. But you have to be fairly far along in your decision making before you'll learn if if that was gonna work out for you. So you know that's difficult. But and the last bit of this is award dominated sectors. Like if you write poetry, or short stories are your mode of expression, then awards and shiny stickers on covers are going to matter to who and how many people see your book. And so that's another gatekeeper audience.

Jess Lahey 12:13

Well, and then there's this in between space too, that's really interesting. Like, I still write in education. And there's an in between space of these sort of independent publishers within education. So there's sort of traditional publishing and then there are these like smaller independent publishing, which are kind of self-pub, but not really. Or started out as self-pub and then they became something bigger. And then there's self-pub, self-pub, which is what you have been doing. And I think that that's a really good point that understanding who your audience is going to be, who your intended audience is, really will help you determine if self-pub or traditional pub is the right place for you. And for me, I was writing a book that was really meant for a sort of general audience, it was nonfiction. To do nonfiction in the self-pub world is really hard. I haven't seen a ton of examples that have done really well. And I get sent a lot of self-published books in the education.

KJ Dell'Antonia 13:16

I think it's extremely platform dependent.

Jess Lahey 13:20

Yeah, that's true.

KJ Dell'Antonia 13:21

So if you are Marie Forleo, you've got this massive audience. And I would say that if you had been wanting to self publish your second book, you would have approached the first book.... You would have had to really intensify your email address gathering and your speaking to that audience directly. Like you could probably have set yourself up better to do that. But you would have needed to think about it like from the minute that your book took off, which of course it totally did. You will have needed to be going okay, I mean, how am I gonna collect these people? How am I gonna put them into a pie that is my pie and not the publisher's pie.

Sarina Bowen 14:06

You know, there's one kind of nonfiction that actually does really well with self-pub, but it's probably invisible to you. And that is highly prescriptive books.

Jess Lahey 14:22

I thought you were gonna say highly prescriptive business books because I was gonna say, those I have seen and that have been very, very successful self-pub.

KJ Dell'Antonia 14:33

I was gonna guess that, because if it's like How to Raise Sheep on a New Zealand Sheepholder's Farm When You Are Actually from Norway, you know ten people might buy it, but you're gonna find those ten people.

Sarina Bowen 14:49

Yeah, and I'm sure there's people just raking in the money on highly prescriptive nonfiction that is very trend based. But as a writer, that's not really interesting to me. But let's just say you were a CrossFit guy, like at the moment when CrossFit got really big, and all you wanted to do was write about this niche, new little method for working out to like minded individuals, that could have been an amazing self-pub project just based on finding those people in a place where a traditional publisher might have looked at you and said, cross what?

Jess Lahey 15:36

Yeah, but then you need people in that field, in that industry, in that hobby, interest, whatever, talking about your book a lot and recommending it to other people within that.

Sarina Bowen 15:49

Because I think if it's a very prescriptive thing that people are searching for on Google, then you don't, but if you wanted to write a book about the guy who started CrossFit, then that's different.

Jess Lahey 16:07

That's a good point.

Sarina Bowen 16:08

Yeah. So one way to look at this decision is to think about an airport bookstore. And everything in an airport bookstore is in a print-centric market, basically. And a lot of people haven't stared quite as hard at airport bookstores as I have, but there's very specific stuff in there.

Jess Lahey 16:31

Oh, I stare really hard. And I've wondered a lot about that rack that sits at the edge of the store halfway out in the terminal aisle, that's very prescriptive, either books about faith or books about business. Like I've never heard of any of these books. And they're like, over a quarter of a million copies sold. I've always wondered about those.

Sarina Bowen 16:55

They're prescriptive about your mind, but not about like how to rebuild your car. You know what I mean? Like they're practical in like a meta sense, like the big expansive thoughts you want to think about when you're sitting on that plane. And sometimes the decision of who should publish your book is complicated by the author not allowing herself to be honest about whether her book would fit on that shelf. And that's where all the difficulty comes from.

Jess Lahey 17:36

Well, the airport bookstore is frustrating to me simply because when you look at what's for sale in many of the smaller ones, it's really only the books that are on bestseller lists in the top, you know, 10 positions.

Sarina Bowen 17:48

Yeah, and there's no genre fiction in an airport bookstore, even though people read genre fiction on planes and the reason for that is that you have to think about like how print-centric is your market. So, if you are writing in a very print-centric niche, then traditional publishing will always be a better deal for you but there are different reasons to be print-centric. Like if your desired reader is 12 years old. That's a very print-centric reader in any genre. If you're writing a cookbook, or a workbook, or something where it's actually useful to have this thing on the counter in front of you, again, print-centric. Older readers, like mysteries with older characters in a demographic that has been slower to adopt e-books, also print-centric. And sometimes the only way to find this information is to ask an author who writes in a genre like yours - what is your print ratio. And I'm always surprised that authors don't know their print ratio. Like, the Penguin Random House portal makes this very easy to see. If you log in and look at your numbers. I can tell you that Rookie Move in its first year of publication was 84% e-books and 16% print. And when I saw those numbers, I said, Oh, geez, I should have self-published these books. Because the math just works out that way. But if I had been writing in market women's fiction for Penguin, instead, it might have said 55% print, 45% e-book, and then that would have been a totally different decision matrix.

KJ Dell'Antonia 19:41

I want to talk for a minute about a couple of author reasons for doing both, for example, Gretchen Rubin, obviously, a hugely popular traditionally author of books about how people find happiness. She self-published a book that was basically all of her emails (I could get I could be getting what it is wrong, but essentially everything she had emailed to her subscriber list every year because people kept asking her for it. And very few of us have that kind of audience, but I thought that was sort of an interesting one. And then there's another author and I'm looking for her name. So she's a romance writer, and she's British, and her romances are traditionally published, but her books about riding horses, which fall into that sort of sporty, prescriptive category that Sarina was talking about, are self published. So I think that's interesting. Yeah, I mean, they're really fun, but you know, I've read them for a very specific reason, which is that I have an interest, it's exactly what you're talking about. If you're passionate about training your horse in a non-aggressive way, then you're tend towards wanting to read everything you can by people who have already done that, and you don't care how it was published.

Sarina Bowen 21:27

Well, if you think about, if I were to write a book about horse training, and I could say to myself, you know, that's not an airport bookstore book.

KJ Dell'Antonia 21:44

Tanya Kindersley and her horse books are in KU, you but I don't think her romances are. Yeah, that's not a book for an airport bookstore because that's just not what you're thinking about when you're getting on a plane.

Sarina Bowen 22:00

So I also, I tried to make a list of good reasons to go traditional and bad reasons to go traditional and good reasons to go independent and bad reasons. And of course, the way this works is that the bad reasons are much more fun. Okay, so let's start with bad reasons to self publish your book. Bad Reason number one - I'm tired of querying agents, and I'm feeling very impatient.

KJ Dell'Antonia 22:34

Oh, yeah, that's a very bad reason.

Jess Lahey 22:39

Well, the impatient one is a big one, like, Oh, this would go so much faster if I could just push it out there now, I wouldn't have to wait for a year and a half or whatever to get my book out. That's a biggie.

Sarina Bowen 22:49

It's true. And we are all impatient. I mean, I'm just as impatient as the next guy. So that's, that's a bad reason. Another bad reason is I haven't been honest with myself about the quality of this piece or its market readiness. And when people look down on self published books, they're really looking at that.

Jess Lahey 23:12

Like I said, I get sent a lot of them and they just needed an editor. They just needed to go through another editing process. They needed a better spell check. You know, that kind of thing. And then that's what leads people to say, oh, self published books stink. I'm not going to read them. And that's simply because there are a lot out there from people who were impatient just pushed them out early.

Sarina Bowen 23:37

And even the people that say I'm never reading a self published book have probably read one and didn't know it? Because if it's done right, you know it you don't even notice.

KJ Dell'Antonia 23:49

Yeah, if I find myself going, Oh, who published this? That's a bad sign. I never ask that about something that's really good.

Sarina Bowen 23:59

Sure. Well, my last bad reason to independently publish was I have unreasonable expectations about the discoverability of my book. So, sometimes people just want to write that book that's half horse training, half memoir. And the reason they haven't found a place for it with a traditional publisher is that they keep getting rejections that sounds like this. 'Well, this is fascinating. We're not sure how to sell it.' It's so tempting to write your story and then say, oh, anyone would read this. Anyone could enjoy it. But the truth is, that same person is super picky about their own reading, right? And so it's it's so hard to really be tough on yourself and say, 'Well, actually, not everyone is going to want to read this.' And it belongs to a highly specific audience. And so if you end up with a beautiful book that you're proud of, but it's really hard to define that audience, well then your next trick is you have to get busy defining it, whether that helps your traditional publisher or your eventual self publishing.

Jess Lahey 25:22

And sometimes that can happen by looking at other books (if you can find them) other books that are out there that have sold within that audience, because occasionally what will happen is in a proposal, like in both of my proposals, I've put competing titles in there and my agent Laurie has come back and said, yeah, we need to explain why you included this book because it only sold 800 copies. And so if you're trying to say that there's room in this market, because, look, there's this other book, but it did really poorly. You need to differentiate your book and explain why more people would want to buy it than that book.

Sarina Bowen 26:04

So bad reasons to go traditional. Are you ready? Oh, okay, well, bad reason number one. My agent will be upset with me if I don't accept this deal. Bad reason number two, I'm afraid to ask my publisher or my agent to break out the math for is this a good deal for me. Bad Reason number three, there's a stigma attached to self publishing.

Jess Lahey 26:54

But don't you also think you have to say there's a stigma attached to self publishing in this category.

Sarina Bowen 27:03

I actually have the asterisk and I was about to say that, unless you're trying to reach an audience that is sensitive to that stigma. Bad reason number four, this deal stinks but they'll pay me more next time. And that one's tricky, of course. Because if you're offered no advance, which happens a lot lately, then your publisher has no skin in the game. And that's a really tough decision.

Jess Lahey 27:34

Yeah, not good for when it comes to marketing, because there's no impetus to invest in the marketing and publicity for that book.

Sarina Bowen 27:43

Yep. And the last bad reason to go traditional is I need a publisher's validation. Who doesn't want to be wanted?

Jess Lahey 27:55

Well, and it's tough because, you know, when writers get together and talk, they ask who each other's publisher is and you know, it's still a loaded conversation.

KJ Dell'Antonia 28:05

In our genres they do. In Sarina's genre I think they probably don't. You're probably already kind of vaguely aware, right.

Sarina Bowen 28:14

Yeah, but in romance, where it's we're like the canary in the coal mine market for independent publishing. And when I meet an author who has a long string of traditionally published titles, what I think about that author is, she must be awesome at writing. Because if you're not, you're going to be dropped on your head by your publisher pretty fast, right? But when I meet somebody who is very successful at self publishing, I think she must be a great writer, and she definitely knows a lot about the market because self publishing your work forces you to learn a ton about what readers want and how they make decisions. Whereas in traditional publishing, it might suit your life better to be published by someone who isn't you, but you will not learn as much. You just simply can't. Because a lot of those decisions are made out of your viewpoint.

Jess Lahey 29:16

Yeah, and it's a lot of work to do all that stuff and to learn all that stuff. I mean, it's a lot of work. I guess the other thing you have to think about along those lines is you have to do a lot of work that does take away from your writing time. And if you hate it, I mean, that's the other thing. You really like the business stuff and you like analyzing markets and you like figuring those things out. I don't know that I want to do any of that. And so that's another part of the decision, too. Is is what do you like doing about this and what do you hate doing about this and is it going to drive you crazy and make you sad to have to do that work? You know, the background stuff, the marketing, and the business, and all of that stuff.

Sarina Bowen 30:04

Definitely. And with regard to romance, because we've already established that that's a perfectly good market to independently publish in. After I started doing it myself, I flipped quickly to well, everyone should do this, because I saw the ways in which that it allowed me to cut the line and build a readership faster than traditionally published romance authors were able to do because their publisher held on to all the information, like who's reading the book, and what's their email address. So I was able to more quickly build a readership that really belong to me. But then as the the work of self publishing ate my life in an increasingly aggressive way, I softened on my stance of you know, what might work for me might really not work for someone else. If I had a day job at the Pentagon, like one of my colleagues does, then self publishing would just be like having a third job. Everybody has to make her own decision.

Jess Lahey 31:13

Yeah, like I love the PR and marketing stuff, but some of the things that you do and are so good at and love because that's the money stuff and the numbers, you love that stuff. And it's just not my not my bag.

KJ Dell'Antonia 31:30

I definitely did not think about self publishing the novel that I sold exactly because I didn't really, I always intended to go out with it. Because my position was just so good for going out as a traditionally published author and getting a decent advance. But what I sort of always had in the back of my mind was if this career as a traditionally public hopefully book a year, author of women's fiction doesn't work out the way that I want it to, I have your model of doing it. But what you do is different and I know that. Like I would have to be able to write books more quickly and develop the audience. If I wanted to do it like that, I would do it like that. I don't know if that makes any sense. I mean, because, because I love what you do. But I didn't think it was quite what I wanted to do right now. And I don't know that I could either. Your success is pretty astonishing.

Sarina Bowen 33:04

I know what you mean. And the word astonishing comes to me sometimes too, when I do consider the luck involved, and timing, and all kinds of things like that.

Jess Lahey 33:16

Well, the word astonishing comes into it for me, mostly because from when I first started looking at whether I was going to get traditionally published, I could put my arms around that, I knew what that looked like. And we call it traditional publishing because it's traditional, but until Sarina started doing it, I had no idea what that looked like. It wasn't something I could even envision because I didn't know what was involved and when you can't envision something, it seems completely overwhelming. But now that I've been watching Sarina do this, it is something I can get my arms around and it's much more of an option to me mentally if there isn't all of this sort of mystery out there about what's involved. So I think very few writers have someone to look to that have done this and can break it down for you and show you exactly what it is and exactly how it works. And I think that's part of why people tend to think about traditional publishing first is simply because it's traditional, and you can look and there are a million books out there on how to do it. But I have to assume there are a lot of self-pub books about how to do self publishing. And if you start googling them, you will find them and they are very niche books, as you said about giving very practical advice about how to do a very specific thing.

KJ Dell'Antonia 34:41

You know, there are books that if I wrote them, I would totally sell. If I wrote that natural horse training memoir, or a dog training memoir, or something like that, I would totally self publish that. I'd be doing it for a different reason and a different audience.

Jess Lahey 35:09

Well, and the other thing is, it has to do with knowing who the people in the landscape are again, too. Like, one of the things that Sarina had to do is figure out who's who in the romance publishing world. And now you know who's who in the natural horsemanship world and knowing those who those people are and who to reach out to and who to advertise to and do your PR with. That's another big hurdle that makes it more comprehensible to you that you would do the self-pub thing.

Alright. Sarina, you were the one who had the wonderful list, have we hit everything that you wanted to talk about?

Sarina Bowen 36:02

We have pretty much and I would just like to leave it with this idea. And that's that every author who's contemplating publishing at all, should really do their level best to define their own audience. So that could be something like the audience for this book is nursing students, or ComicCon attendees, or fans of James Patterson, just the more granular and precise you can be about defining the audience for your work, the easier it is to convince a publisher to take you on or to just figure out how you're going to sell the darn thing if you publish it yourself.

Jess Lahey 36:46

And we've talked about this in book proposal writing, too, that saying, oh, everyone will want to read this book is like the first big mistake. So yeah, that granular look is important for traditional publishing, too. So you're gonna have to think about that no matter what.

Sarina Bowen 37:00

That's right, some of these decisions and self honesty exercises are going to be undertaken no matter what decision you make.

Jess Lahey 37:11

I love that you called it self honesty decision. That was really good. I like that because that's what it is, you know, that's absolutely what it is getting real about who's gonna read your book.

KJ Dell'Antonia 37:23

Fellow writers, before we get into what we've been reading, let me flag for you the big message of this episode. If you're going to indie pub, you better be honest with yourself about what you've written. If you've got some doubts about your ability to do that, and who doesn't, a book coach might be the answer, both to help you assess what you've done, the strengths and the weaknesses, and to figure out what else if anything you might want to do before grabbing one of those self publishing how-to books we talked about and getting out into the market. Author Accelerator book coaches know their stuff when it comes to both traditional and indie publishing to find one that's right for you head to authoraccelerator.com.

Jess Lahey 38:07

Speaking about reading books, let's do that part. Let's talk about what we've been reading because oh my gosh, I've been reading such good stuff.

Sarina Bowen 38:15

I've got one. I am reading Boyfriend Material by Alexis Hall, who is a man. And he is always hilarious and I recommend him wholeheartedly.

Jess Lahey 38:31

Ooh, that sounds like fun. What do you got KJ?

KJ Dell'Antonia 38:33

I also have a fun one. I have just finished The Exit Strategy by Lainey Cameron. It is a super fast moving story of two really go-getter women in Silicon Valley, which always fascinates me in and of itself, who discover that they are both - one is married to and the other is engaged to the same really, really rotten con artist. So it's got overtones. I mean, it's not like he's having an affair, it's like full on con artist stuff. So they're sort of race to get away from him and out from under him and they have to work together on something, it's just super fast, and entertaining, and kind of a juicy read, and I really enjoyed it. So that's The Exit Strategy from Lainey Cameron, and it just came out last week I think.

Jess Lahey 39:32

But speaking of listening to things because that's how I've been doing just about everything lately because I've been outside a lot. I have been listening to Sara Stewart Taylor's The Mountains Wild and it just came out this week, the week we're recording, and actually we'll link to it in the show notes, but we did interview Sara Stewart Taylor early on in the process, we interviewed her about mystery writing, because that's what she does. And she's really good at it. And she has a whole bunch of books that I have read of hers. But this Mountains Wild book is really special. And the reason I want to talk about the audio version is that when you do an audio book and you need to find a narrator that can do other languages, lots of accents, I'm assuming it's a really tough get and the woman who narrates Sara's book is fantastic. She gets the Gaelic, she does the Dublin accent, the Northern Ireland accent, the Long Island accent, and she does male, and female and there's no moment where I'm saying, Oh, this isn't a full cast of characters, this is one person pretending to be lots of people and it's really, really good. Sarah's writing is beautiful. And the audio narration is spectacular. And so congratulations, Sara Stuart Taylor on the release of your book. This is what's fun about this podcast, I think is having this long view like, you know, we interview them early on when they first got their book deal, and then come back to them when the book is actually out. So anyway, I'm proud of Sara. It's really good. Alright. I think that's it for this week.

KJ Dell'Antonia 41:28

I think that's it for this week. I want to remind everyone to sign up for our weekly email with the shownotes because that is also how you will get all the book recommendations with their links, as well as links to our fantastic sponsors, and links to our Facebook group and links to everything that we talk about. Plus, it's your little announcement that there's a fat new episode waiting for you in your podcast player. And if you want to go one step further, you can support the podcast financially. And as a result, get weekly mini episodes or writer top fives that are super good and super fun. And those mini episodes also drop right into your podcast player once you support the podcast, which is a fun little trick that our friends at Substack have figured out.

Jess Lahey 42:22

In fact, I'm recording one today. I love recording those little mini episodes. They're really fun. And if you want to, actually, we mentioned that today's topic came straight out of our #AmWriting Facebook group and we keep really tight reins on. There's no mean stuff and people are nice and supportive and it's moderated and it's just a bunch of writers supporting each other and it's a really fun place to hang out. And if you ask any questions there who knows it may be a topic on a future show.

KJ Dell'Antonia 42:54

This is true and you can find all of those links at amwriting podcast.com.

Jess Lahey 43:01

All right, everyone. This is it, until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 217 #HowtoGetOnThatPodcast with Lauren Passell Jun 26, 2020

You listen to podcasts. You love podcasts. (Perhaps we’re assuming here, but after all, we ARE a podcast.) And you’re a writer, with books or articles or ideas or other projects you want to get out into the world. Which just might mean you’ve imagined yourself as a guest on a podcast, sharing your work. (It’s the writer version of the sportscaster doing an imaginary play-by-play while a kid shoots hoops—we imagine ourselves being interviewed by our favorite podcasters.)

This week’s guest, Lauren Passell, can help with that. She loves podcasts (she even created a weekly email that’s essentially a love letter to the big, the small, the great and the weird in the podcast world: Podcast, the Newsletter). And she loves writers. And she loves connecting writers with podcasts, so much so that she’s turned it into her business: TINK Media, a PR company specializing in podcasts. We talk about creating a podcast-worthy story, finding the right podcasts to pitch, perfecting those pitches and making your voice a part of the podcast world. It’s an amazing and useful episode. I think you’re gonna love it.

Links from the pod

Subscribe to Podcast the Newsletter and take the quiz

Player.fm

Friday Black, a short story collection by Nana Kwame Adjei-Brenyah

The United States of Anxiety: I Did Not Watch the Video

#AmReading/#AmListening

Jess: Longform

CBC Podcasts: Finding Cleo, Someone Knows Something

KJ: How Do You Write with Rachael Herron

Lauren: Threshholds, produced by LitHub

Articles of Interest, from 99% Invisible

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

Don’t forget to check out our new sponsor, Dabble. We’re in love with its plotting and organizational tools and its write-anywhere availability, and we think you’ll like it too.

And if you want to hear more from Jennie Nash, founder of Author Accelerator, she’s been on three great podcasts of late (and KJ has listened to them all, because listening to Jennie makes her want to write): Marginally, How Do You Write and Reading and Writing.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 216 #TheBiggestBluff with Maria Konnikova Jun 19, 2020

This week we talk to Maria Konnikova about her new book, The Biggest Bluff: How I Learned to Pay Attention, Master Myself, and Win.

After a series of devastating health and financial setbacks, Konnikova, a former New Yorker staffer whose other books include Mastermind: How to Think Like Sherlock and The Confidence Game: Why We Fall for It…Every Timeset out to understand how luck, skill and human behavior contribute to the trajectory of our lives. Though she’d never played a hand of poker in her life, she convinced Poker Hall of Fame inductee Erik Seidel to become her coach. Konnikova quit her job at the New Yorker and set aside a year to learn poker as a way to master her luck and her life.

One career in professional poker and more than $300,000 later, Konnikova found at least some of the answers she sought.

Links from the Podcast:

Long Form Storytelling, The Grift Podcast

Slate daily podcast, The Gist

#AmReading

Maria: Weird by Olga Khazan

KJ: The Authenticity Project by Claire Pooley

Jess: Sunny Days by David Kamp

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 215: #TheSocialBookLaunch Jun 12, 2020

This week, the How to Launch a Book series continues with everyone’s favorite: book launching on social media.

Twitter. Instagram. Canva. PicMonkey. Crello. Pinterest. Linked In. Head blowing up yet? We talk about planning your launch social media, how to use social media and image-creating apps to share and promote and why you shouldn’t feel one bit like you’re talking about your book too much when you’re launching it into the world.

We also fall apart a bit, here and there, because these are falling apart times, and we feel it.

#AmReading

KJ: Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens

Jess: The Secret History by Donna Tartt

How to Be an AntiRacist by Ibram X Kendi

Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides

Sarina: Pale Rider Laura Spinney

Don’t forget to check in with our sponsor, Author Accelerator. They’ve got a special book coaching class happening in June on coaching historical fiction, which I would love to be a fly on the wall for—as well as introductory and master classes on book coaching, and, as always, the ability to match you with just the right book coach to help you move your work forward.

As for us—we send out a MiniSode or a Writer Top Five every Monday to our supporters. Your support pays for the production and transcription of the podcast, and is the reason why, this week, you don’t also hear my conversation with the child who walked in while we’re recording. Also why there’s music and a fun opening. Because we hired a professional, because it’s good to do these things right.

So thanks for chipping in—and if you’d like to join us, click the button.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:01

Hey writers, it's KJ. This week we are continuing our book launch series and Sarina is schooling me on getting all my social media ready for a fiction launch. At our sponsor, Author Accelerator, they're offering some different schooling this month, June of 2020 with classes in book coaching. There are introductory classes, master classes, and (this fascinates me) a special class this month on coaching historical fiction. I love that they're getting so specific, and I would love to listen in on that one. If you're intrigued find out more at authoraccelerator.com. Is it recording?

Jess Lahey 0:40

Now it's recording.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:43

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone and try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess Lahey 0:47

Alright, let's start over.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:48

Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three. Hi, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting, the podcast about writing all the things, short things, long things, fiction, nonfiction, essays, book proposals, pitches. In short, this is, as I say every week, the podcast about settling down and getting your writing work done.

Jess Lahey 1:18

This is Jess Lahey I am the author of The Gift of Failure and the forthcoming The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my work at the New York Times, and the Washington Post, and The Atlantic, and various other spots.

Sarina Bowen 1:29

I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 35 romance novels and the most recent one is called Sure Shot.

KJ Dell'Antonia 1:35

I am KJ Dell'Antonia, author of the novel The Chickens Sisters coming out July of 2020 and the book How to Be a Happier Parent out in paperback now, as well as the former editor of the Motherlode blog and column at the New York Times where I am still a contributor. That's who we are. And this week, we're continuing our how to launch a book series, in which we sort of try to cover all the different arenas of things that you can get ready for before your book launches. We've done Amazon, Bookbub, and Goodreads. We've done websites. And now we're going to turn our attention to social media.

Sarina Bowen 2:22

That beast called social media.

Jess Lahey 2:24

Such a powerful tool sometimes. Well, and I know for a fact that when I talk to authors who are sort of contemplating the social media sort of for the first time in a professional context, they're just so overwhelmed. They're like, do I have to do all of it? So Sarina, do we have to do all of it? Do we have to do Pinterest, and Instagram, and Facebook, and do we have to be good at all of it? Because that's the thing that seems to overwhelm authors.

Sarina Bowen 2:52

Absolutely. You will find it overwhelming because it is overwhelming and you don't have to do it all. You absolutely have my permission not to do all of it. So, of course, everybody has their favorites. So you really need to ask yourself two questions. And Jess, you've been super articulate about this, too. Like, the two questions really are, which platform is your favorite or which platform makes you hate it the least? And the corollary question, which is almost as important, which platform is your people?

Jess Lahey 3:45

Yeah, where's your audience?

Sarina Bowen 3:47

Yeah. And you and I have discovered that our answers to this question are like 180 degrees different, whereas you talk to educators all the time on Twitter, and my audience is really on Facebook and Instagram.

Jess Lahey 4:04

Yep. How did you figure that out? I mean, for me, it was fairly obvious from the get go because I think I started learning about personal learning networks and realizing, oh, that's where all the teachers were. And I was using it for teaching. But then, of course, when I started writing something that was about teaching, it was sort of a natural fit for me. But did you have to go looking and sort of figuring out where all those people were for you?

Sarina Bowen 4:28

I really did have to pay attention because there are a lot of authors on Twitter. But at one point, somebody said to me, Twitter is where I go to talk to other authors. But I reached my readers on Facebook and I thought, okay, well, that feels a little bit familiar. But I'm a really analytical person and I like data. So of course, I've been using all of these sites, at least partly, for kind of a long time. And I realized that my Squarespace website (and every website does this in some capacity, you just have to find it, but it has really good data about this) it's called traffic sources is the page that I look at. And under social media in the last 30 days, you can see, or maybe I'm at seven days here. But over some period of recent time, I have gotten 816 clicks from Facebook, 158 clicks from Goodreads, and 78 clicks from Twitter, and 18 clicks from Pinterest. So that tells a really clear story immediately about what's working. And of course, we post fewer links on Instagram and my Instagram shows up on this other page because I use a program for this and I'm getting like 200 off Instagram.

Jess Lahey 5:54

Wait, what do you mean when you say that your Instagram is showing up on another page and use an app for that?

Sarina Bowen 6:01

Well, let's let's just dive right into Instagram because lots of authors love it. So anyway, what I was trying to say is that you, you can be given permission to cut one of these out if you can see in hard numbers where people are finding you. And of course, a lot of the links that I post on social media do not lead back to my website. So this is just a little subset. But I still find it quite telling and it gave me permission to walk away from Twitter without really looking back and I actually changed my account there. It says now that it's a Sarina Bowen update account infrequently monitored, because I'm not part of the conversation. And it basically says, this is a promo account, you know, do with that what you will, I don't expect to have a grand, wonderful following there, because I have chosen not to pursue it.

Jess Lahey 6:57

You know, it's really interesting. I have a column up in TweetDeck - one for you and one for KJ, because I like to keep tabs on what people are saying about my peeps. And occasionally I'll find stuff before you guys see it. But what I often see are cross posts from Goodreads with a tweet saying what percentage they are through him via Goodreads. And it's really clear that people are letting Goodreads cross post to Twitter for them. And that's the majority of what I see from readers regarding your books, which was a really interesting realization to me that it's sort of not that the readers are necessarily there, but that they're letting Goodreads cross post for them.

Sarina Bowen 7:39

Yeah. And can we just back up to the part where you said you have a column on TweetDeck, but that column is a special thing. That's a search column, right?

Jess Lahey 7:48

Right, right. Meaning I have a search column with quotes around your full name and a column for you on @SarinaBowenUpdates or whatever your handle is. Just because I like to just know what's happening with my people.

Sarina Bowen 8:05

That's amazing.

Jess Lahey 8:08

It's fun, I like to see what people are reading of your stuff. And you know, it's always fun to report back that when people are saying nice things.

Sarina Bowen 8:15

You know what, at one point I had a column like that. But I found that I didn't always want to know all the things that were showing up there.

Jess Lahey 8:26

That's probably true. I've seen some things that I didn't necessarily want to see. But that's also how I found out about that thing where I was my one of my essays was on the SAT, because people weren't tagging my handle on Twitter, they were just saying mean things, and making memes about me using my name and sometimes misspelling it, but either way, that's how I found out that I was on the SAT and that all the high schoolers in the country hated me that year.

Sarina Bowen 9:05

We're still on Twitter, so let's let's finish Twitter because I want to know something that I'm not good at on Twitter because like I said, I don't use it that much. But how do you use hashtags to find your audience?

Jess Lahey 9:19

Well, it depends. I use hashtags on Twitter for education stuff, simply because they're chats that happen, like more chats than I can even tell you. If you do a Google search on education hashtag Twitter chats you will get this table that has hundreds of Twitter chats. So occasionally, I'll use them for things like you know, I need a particular book for kid a particular age and then I'll hashtag a couple of reading or teaching literacy hashtags, but I actually don't use hashtags very often on Twitter. It's not so much my jam.

KJ Dell'Antonia 10:03

It's not like Instagram, there's not a lot of room for them. You just use a hashtag, unless you're joking.

Jess Lahey 10:10

There are exceptions, though. I mean, like if a big education conference is going on, I'll throw up a column for that education conference and follow people at that conference so that I can see what's going on, and find out what people are talking about, and things like that. But for the most part, yeah, I don't really use hashtags. I don't use hashtags the way people use hashtags in Instagram. It seems to be a bigger deal in Instagram than it is on Twitter, at least for me, that may not be the case for everyone. But definitely for me, hashtags are not as much a thing on Twitter.

KJ Dell'Antonia 10:42

I think that the reason to use them on Twitter tends to be because your being part of a conversation is around a hashtag. So it's often political, but not always. I mean, that's why. Whereas on Instagram, because people rarely reshare because Instagram makes it hard, I will follow certain hashtags. And then from those hashtags, I might find new accounts to follow. Because for example, I'm actively looking to follow people who write about the kinds of books that I write. So I follow a hashtag for that. I don't do that in Twitter for a lot of reasons. One of which is that I just don't go on Twitter anymore.

Jess Lahey 11:30

I absolutely just misspoke though. Because in looking for this new audience for the new book, I actually do have a list around people in recovery and then I also do have a column for hashtag recovery or hashtag sobriety or hashtag sober so that I misspoke. Because I don't know the audience as well in the recovery world as I do in the education world, I do occasionally go mining and looking around just to see who's who, who's talking about what, who's reputable, who's not, sort of who's in the conversation, and those hashtags can occasionally help me access that.

KJ Dell'Antonia 12:09

And I think the thing for Twitter is that if you're a nonfiction author, especially, but it probably works in fiction as well, is that you can end up in a conversation with an expert that you might want to reach or a fellow author that you might want to reach because if they're putting out a tweet, and you reply to it, it's just different, then they might tweet back. And because they're actually actively on there, well depending on whether or not they've scheduled their tweets, but usually the kind of thing you'd reply to isn't that, so there's an opportunity for connection there that's a little bit different, but I don't know. It's sort of more general. It's not a lot to do with launching your book.

Jess Lahey 12:57

Well, for me though, the one thing I do though is if I find someone who's in my demographic squarely, someone who I really am interested in following on Twitter, and who I think really follow some interesting people, whether it's recovery or education, I will go through who they follow and sort of say, oh, look, there's some people I don't follow and follow those people. So that can be really useful too, if you're new to a field. Going and looking. For example, if you were really interested in like COVID stuff, and PPE, there's this woman, Dr. Megan Ranney, who's out there in the media a lot and Megan would be a great person to go follow and then look at who she follows because she probably follows a really reputable group of people within that field. So that's a really great thing to do, too. For example, if you were writing your first novel, and it happened to be a women's fiction novel, go look to see who like Jennifer Wiener or KJ Dell'Antonia or Jodi Picoult, who do they follow? And obviously, there might be some interesting people for you to follow in there as well. So that's been really useful for me.

KJ Dell'Antonia 14:05

But to specifically bring us back to book launches, I will say one thing that I did on Twitter with my nonfiction book launch, and I think Jess may have done some of the same thing, is to tweet everyone I quote in the book. So when I was launching my nonfiction, I prepared in advance a bunch of tweets that were like, 'Thanks for your help with How to Be a Happier Parent, Jessica Lahey, it's out now.' They were a little better than that and I had those all revved up and ready to go and either scheduled or not, so that's a way to let people that were helpful to you know, so that hopefully they will share. So that's one way to use Twitter. And another way is to ask other people to tweet for you.

Jess Lahey 14:50

Right. And, you know, our groups of friends can be relied on to really boost us if we need them. But it's been really fun watching for a friend. Like when Catherine Newman's book was first up on Amazon, and you know, it'll be out by the time this podcast goes up. She did that. She said, I want to thank @JessLahey for supporting me in this book by blurbing it and blah, blah, blah. And that sort of reminds me, oh, yeah, I really support this book I want to help. So you're right, that's a really good way to do it as well.

KJ Dell'Antonia 15:25

Right. And so then another thing that you can do within Twitter is to create tweets about the book that people that are on your email list could send out. And if you go to share link generator, you can write a tweet that then you can create a link and you can put it in an email, you can put it in a blog post, you can put it on almost anywhere and say click to tweet. And if someone clicks that, then their tweet pops up, it's editable. So what I do with that, is I send it out to a bunch of people that I know, but maybe my email list, maybe my launch team, maybe just 20 people that I have collected, and I say, it would be awesome for me if you would tweet about the book. Here, I've made it easy. Click here, and you get an editable tweet about the book with all the links. And the person clicks. And it says, 'Hey, I'm so excited to welcome KJ's new book, The Chicken Sisters into the world.', and they can change that too. You know, 'I've read this and I love it' or 'I hated this I never want to hear from this author ever again'. You know, they can change it to anything that they want. But it's already there. And it has the links and it makes life so much easier. And I always kind of boggle at people who don't. People who just send me an email and say would you mind tweeting about the book? To do that I have to go find the link, and then I have to think of something to say, and I have to go on Twitter, I mean, there's like four steps in there. Whereas with share link generator, you can make it a one click deal. It also works for Facebook, but we're not on Facebook yet.

Jess Lahey 17:09

All right, are we done with Twitter?

Sarina Bowen 17:11

I would like to propose one last thought on Twitter that's actually applicable to all of the platforms we're discussing today. Which is that by the time any author gets to her launch day, she feels as though she has been talking about nothing except her book since the beginning of time. And she is a little bit sick of herself and the whole topic. But I would just like to say that Twitter specifically has a sort of short half life of each tweet. And even if you feel you've been discussing your book way too much, launch day is not the moment to change your behavior. Like it's the one day when everyone will forgive you for talking about your book launch a whole lot. So you know, hang tight and put out yet another tweet about your book on that launch day because that is your moment. And not that many people will see that tweet, even if you are sick of yourself.

KJ Dell'Antonia 18:14

And to save yourself the agony of spending your launch day writing 10 different tweets about your book. Write him ahead of time. I mean, then you've got them. I've got a Google spreadsheet going in which I'm just dumping possible posts or make the images that you're going to use have them all ready and just know what you're going to put out there so that you don't have to generate it while you're sort of feeling that 'Oh my God, I've been talking about this forever.'

Jess Lahey 18:54

This week coming I believe is my copy edited manuscript and I have scheduled for when that has to go back in and then I'll have another date coming when I'll hopefully get my galley proofs. And my plan is to go to those looking at my copy edits with a highlighter so that I can highlight a few tweetable, Instagram-able, quotable things that I can make Canva cards for from the get go. Because I'm probably not gonna want to go through the manuscript to the fine tooth comb again, after I do it for all these edit things. So why not do both at the same time?

KJ Dell'Antonia 19:30

I did that with the novel as well.

Jess Lahey 19:34

So smart...

KJ Dell'Antonia 19:35

Sarina, you do something a little different. You do sort of the 'Here's what you can expect to find', which I always think is really fun, which I am also doing now.

Sarina Bowen 19:49

Well, Jess mentioned Canva cards, and let's just spend a minute on Canva, because it's a really useful tool of mine. Canva is a graphic design program at least that's what it calls itself. And there are many there's one called Crello there's several versions of this beast, PicMonkey, lots of places where you can use templates and make cute designs fairly easily even if you're not a Photoshop human. But what I love about Canva specifically, and I actually have the paid version of it, is not only is it good at designing stuff, but it will save it for you for later. So when I'm feeling it in terms of promoting my book, and I'm not sick of myself on a particular day, I can go into Canva and mess around with things like quotes from the book, or thank you for your support, or anything that has to do with that design. And you can actually make pages each Canva document, you can just duplicate the thing you made, and delete the quote and put in a new one. So it's really good at sort of holding your design brain in one spot.

KJ Dell'Antonia 21:10

And you can resize it for something else. So you can duplicate it and then resize it into Twitter size, or Facebook size, or LinkedIn size, or Instagram story size, instead of Instagram post size.

Sarina Bowen 21:25

Right. I think the resizing is part of the paid portion, or at least it used to be, but that was definitely something that I enjoyed getting after I became a whatever it's called pro member. It's not very expensive either. It's like, the whole year costs $200 or something like that. So Canva is definitely a great tool for when you're switching from Twitter to Facebook or you want to play around with a checklist. Those checklists you were just talking about that I make are also wonderful in Canva. And another thing I do if you have chapters in the book that you're launching, and those chapters have titles, I like to make countdown chapter titles because as you hurtle through that month towards your book launch, it's great to be newsy. And so I will make let's say, chapter eight of my book is called, 'Is that really a duck?' I will make a Canva card that says in eight days I will bring you chapter eight, 'Is that really a duck?' And then the next day, I'll have one to post that says, in seven days, I can bring you chapter seven, 'The duck went fishing', and on and on because I've taken the trouble to give my chapters funny titles or informational ones, and it just gives you something newsy to put out into the world as you count down to your terrifying book launch.

KJ Dell'Antonia 23:04

I did that with nonfiction, too. I did it with How To Be a Happier Parent and it was fun and it was helpful and it was just it just felt like something to say. And I made little cards, and it kept me busy, and gave me something to say.

Jess Lahey 23:25

I just want to underline this whole planning ahead thing, because if you are waiting until the very end to think about doing these things, you're going to just be so overwhelmed. So the clear message here is be thinking about text, tidbits, strategies, things you want to do ahead of time so that you're not overwhelming yourself the week of pub date.

Sarina Bowen 23:45

Definitely.

Jess Lahey 23:46

Because that would be insane.

KJ Dell'Antonia 23:48

And let's talk a little about the goal of all of this. It's not going to sell millions of books, you're only probably reaching... So when you ask other people to share on social media, you're reaching their followers and when you're sharing you're mostly reaching your own followers and some retweets. But I think something important to remember is that people need to see the book more than once, usually before they head over and click and buy. And sometimes they don't even remember where they saw it or how they saw it, it just becomes familiar because you've posted a lot of imagery around it. But you haven't made it annoying, you've made it fun, you've made it entertaining. So when people see that title, when they're surfing a book site, or hopefully in a bookstore, it makes them go 'Oh yeah, I've been thinking about that one.'

Jess Lahey 24:44

I definitely hear that a lot that you know, we've talked about this before, that it's the repetition and sometimes it's the second, third, or fourth time that someone says 'Oh yeah, that book that I meant to buy the first time I heard about it, but didn't.'

KJ Dell'Antonia 24:57

So to some extent, that all means that if you don't do it during launch week is just an excuse to do it. If you don't do it during launch week, fine, the next week do something different, create a bunch of things, and start putting your book out there. We don't need to panic if we don't get it all out there on launch day.

Jess Lahey 25:24

You know, what's so interesting about the social media thing too, is that there have been all kinds of attempts, there was that thunderclap thing that was a couple years ago where you'd ask people a favor to all tweet and post something to social media the same exact time and I don't think that that had any kind of effect and it was a huge amount of effort. And it sounded like you were getting something done, but I don't know that it actually had any major effect. So when we talk about these things that you're supposed to do on social media or that you could do on social media, we're not saying that you have to do all of these things and they're going to have a major impact on book sales. But every little bit, you know, can help. And as we always like to say, we don't want to get six months out from book release and say to ourselves, 'Oh, I could have done that other thing. I wanted to be able to say, we did all the things that were under our control that we could do to help our book do well on launch day. But that thunderclap thing was very weird, I think anyway.

Sarina Bowen 26:26

It was an attempt to make virality happen where it wasn't destined to.

Jess Lahey 26:33

Exactly, to force a lot of noise all at the same time in the hopes that it would catch fire. And I don't know, I just mixed metaphors. But I don't know that that was a particularly effective thing to do. And I like to be sparing and what I ask other people to do to help me out and being a part of something like that wasn't something I was particularly interested in.

Sarina Bowen 26:54

Right. I don't think I once participated, but it was an interesting experiment.

Jess Lahey 27:00

Alright, anything else that you want to add to this discussion about Twitter or Instagram?

KJ Dell'Antonia 27:07

We didn't do Instagram...

Sarina Bowen 27:09

We should do Instagram, which is growing faster than the other services that we've been talking about.

Jess Lahey 27:17

Sorry, in my head I kind of thought we had sort of done Instagram because in my head I associate Canva with Instagram, so mentally I had gone there. So my apologies. Sarina, Instagram.

Sarina Bowen 27:59

Instagram is a platform where sharing doesn't really happen very often. So you kind of have this one moment to put something visual and beautiful in front of people and hope that it sticks with them. But discovery on Instagram also works a little differently than it does on other platforms, which is that hashtags really matter on Instagram. So, before you are launching your book, you want to figure out what hashtags people are using who are looking at books like yours and I have a little collection of these I keep it handy.

Jess Lahey 28:42

There's a lot of them for authors and writers and books on Instagram. There's a ton of them, so good for you having a list.

Sarina Bowen 28:50

Well, I have several lists, honestly. So if I'm talking about my own book that's coming, I will use bookaddict, booknerd, bookworm, booklove, booklover, contemporaryromance, romancereads, IGreads, oneclick, alwaysreading, you get the idea. There's a lot of these.

KJ Dell'Antonia 29:08

And let me guess that you have a list that is pastable.

Sarina Bowen 29:11

Oh, yes.

KJ Dell'Antonia 29:12

So where do you keep that?

Sarina Bowen 29:14

I happen to keep it in notes, that little yellow app on all things Apple that is just really handy. But you could use Google Keep for this, you could use any program that you keep handy.

KJ Dell'Antonia 29:26

I use Evernote and I have thought about using Keystrokes. Because since Instagram really requires that you use the phone. You know, you can't post to Instagram except on a phone. So if you go (in an iPhone, at least) into general, and you go to keyboard, you go to text replacement. You can make a series of letters and put them all in there and then when you type that series of letters they will all pop up.

Sarina Bowen 31:00

KJ taught me this nifty trick because actually I use it on Instagram too, which is that I have thank you and some longer phrases for thank you spelled out in German, French, Italian, and Portuguese, because Instagram is a really international platform. And at least half the tags that people are using for me on Instagram are in German, honestly. God bless German instagramers. So I have three different German phrases saved in those Keystrokes that I apply when somebody takes some beautiful picture of my German book and tags me in the post so that I can be thankful without writing danka, danka, danka, danka all day long.

Jess Lahey 31:50

Yeah, that's really brilliant. And I'm actually going to need your help because I got tagged in a couple of things that I needed a Portuguese thank you for and I didn't have it. So that's really smart and really thoughtful.

Sarina Bowen 32:06

So, that whole keystroke thing and being made to create stuff on your phone is kind of a drag. Thanks, Instagram, you can actually hack your way around this by installing a Chrome plug-in that fools your Instagram into thinking you're on a mobile device when you're not...

But my current setup is that I probably have the picture on my phone anyway because I use an iPad to create a lot of imagery, and then I type whatever I want onto my notes on a laptop, and then I just open it on my phone, and copy and paste, or I rely on Bluetooth to copy from one device and paste into another. Because I am never, ever composing an Instagram caption on my phone, my thumb's are not that good at typing, it's just not happening. So there are several ways to keep your Instagram feed looking good. And you don't need to do that. Like you don't need to become obsessive about the beauty of your Instagram feed. But, there are moments when I want to kind of work hard on this. So I have an app called Preview that I use to look at what the grid will look like before I post and some people use one called Planoly. And there's also Later which is a posting to Instagram app. And if you change your Instagram to a business account, you will be allowed to schedule via some of these third party things so that it could post automatically. I don't actually do that, I don't need to post Instagram so often that scheduling is super helpful for me. But I know that a lot of people like to do it that way.

Jess Lahey 34:13

But if you want to see a beautiful Instagram account, go check out Sarina Bowen's Instagram account. The gold standard seems to be what some book bloggers and some romance readers in particular seem to do for the authors that they love, and the people who create these gorgeous Instagram posts for you just blow me away. I'm amazed by the kind of artful creations that your readers create, and that you create for your books. They're really beautiful.

Sarina Bowen 34:45

They blow me away, too.

KJ Dell'Antonia 34:47

Well, you can use those when someone else makes a beautiful image of your book or just makes an image of your book because my goodness, thank you very much. You can do a couple of things. You can post it to your story, which is only polite I think and quite common, but you can also use an app that will allow you to repost and in this case I use Repost. And if you're using an app like that, then when somebody else posts about the book, you can take their post and use it in your feed. Thus, you know, adding to your number of images that you have without you're having to create an image which is really cool. And there's the opportunity to sort of say, you know, thanks bookstagrammar for writing this lovely thing about my book, and then you can share the lovely thing.

Jess Lahey 35:38

What's always weird is when someone thanks me for posting something beautiful they made about my book to my story, and I'm always like, 'Oh my gosh, thank you. This is the most beautiful thing ever. And it's such an incredible honor to be able to repost that.' So it's a wonderful, it's also just a great way to sort of connect with readers. I love it.

Sarina Bowen 35:56

Repost and those apps also will copy the entire caption that the other person wrote...

KJ Dell'Antonia 36:04

Including the hashtags.

Sarina Bowen 36:07

Yeah, exactly. So that not only are you assured an easy way of giving credit to the person who created that thing, but it's very easy to share. So because we never want to get into trouble and have any creator think that we've stolen their work for our own.

KJ Dell'Antonia 36:28

Yeah, that's the nice thing about using the app instead of screenshotting it, is that it makes it very clear where you got it. And it's just socially acceptable.

Sarina Bowen 36:38

Yep. My other trick for working ahead on Instagram is that I don't commonly have more than a small handful of paperback arcs to give away ahead of the launch. So I went to Moo and I made a bunch of these beautiful five by seven postcards. Like I'll do like 150 five by seven postcards of the book cover. And I will mail them all over the world because like I said, Instagramers are very international. And then I will see those postcards pop up all over Instagram during launch as well. And they cost a lot less than a paperback arc and it's honestly really about the shipping, I can put $1.15 stamp on one of these cards and send it all the way to Australia, whereas shipping a book to Australia costs $25.

KJ Dell'Antonia 37:38

And that sort of gets around you know, if you want to be sharing arcs, they can be digital, but there is something that people can take a picture of, which is really nice. People love having something to take a picture. I love having something to take a picture of. I don't do LinkedIn, but I have some friends that do it really well. And so I'm just gonna ask them when my book comes out will you post this on LinkedIn, please? But if you are a business writer, you probably should be.

Sarina Bowen 38:22

Definitely.

Jess Lahey 38:24

Absolutely. The business world is very much about LinkedIn. And you know, I will post things there but I actually don't see a ton of interaction with the stuff that I post there. So it's often an afterthought for me. Alright. Can we talk about what we've been reading? Pretty pretty, please.

Sarina Bowen 38:53

Absolutely. Has anyone been able to read?

KJ Dell'Antonia 39:00

I will note before we talk about what we've been reading that we didn't talk about Facebook.

Jess Lahey 39:05

I think that's a whole long discussion in itself. I mean, that's just me, mainly because I hear Sarina talking about the stuff that she does there. And she's on a whole other level with Facebook and I sort of have the feeling that that's its own episode in and of itself.

KJ Dell'Antonia 39:23

Okey dokey. There we go. Stay tuned. We got one more book launch thing to go.

Jess Lahey 39:34

KJ you have been doing a beautiful, beautiful job, by the way, speaking of Instagram of talking about what you've been reading, and you've really done a great job of doing these capsule reviews of books, and you've sort of set a standard, I think, for me anyway for understanding how to do a really quick review of a book. So I just wanted to tell you that I have been appreciating those a lot.

KJ Dell'Antonia 39:56

Why thank you, I'm actually planning to up that game. So, I've been creating a whole list of books that I want to make sure get shared. This is partly just the the whole let's help make book book launches still work. So I've got a whole great list of books that I want to share with people that are either books that I recommend and here's why, or books that I have had an arc of, or books that I'm super anxious to read. And I've been putting together ways to do that. So yeah, I've been having fun.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Bonus Mini-sode: Finding Diverse Sources Jun 08, 2020

Hey all—this week, a special mini episode on diversity in sources for non-fiction work, from light-hearted articles on favorite baby food flavors to seriously researched pieces for high-profile outlets. BIPOC, non-binary and women are outweighed by white men when it comes to who gets quoted in the news, whether the voice is adding an expert perspective or just a little local color. Here’s some help finding sources that reflect the world we’re writing about.

Links from the Pod

SheSource

Informed Voices

NPR’s Source of the Week and how to use it.

Columbia University’s list of female, non-binary and BIPOC experts on the media

HARO

This mini-episode went wide, because the topic is important and we wanted to make sure everyone had a chance to hear it. Other minisodes, like the recent Pitching Yourself to Producers, and Writer Top Fives (like Top Five Ways to Boost a Writers Instagram or Top Five Ways to Start a Revision) go out to our supporters every Monday. That support pays for production and transcription (we give you all our time because we love you) and we appreciate it. Want to help? We’ll make it easy for you: click the button.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 214 Learning to Be #GenreFlexible with Catherine Newman Jun 05, 2020

In fact, I’d argue that “insouciant disregard” might just BE her brand.

#AmReading

KJ: Henna Artist by Alka Joshi

Recipes for a Beautiful Life by Rebecca Barry

Jess: Sure Shot by Sarina Bowen

Animal, Vegetable, Miracle by Barbara Kingsolver

Missing You by Harlan Coben

Catherine: Know My Name by Chanel Miller

Sea Wife by Amity Gaige

The Chicken Sisters by KJ Dell’Antonia

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

KJ Dell'Antonia 0:00

Hey writers KJ here. Usually I write down what I'm going to tell you in our pre episode, promotional blurb, whatever you want to call this, and I will say right away that of course we are, as always sponsored by our friends at Author Accelerator, who we love. This week, instead of writing down some great reasons why we love them I just wanted to take a minute to read to you from the email that I got from Jenny Nash this week. This is her weekly email that goes out to anyone who's on the Author Accelerator list, or read every single one of those and I cannot say that about almost any other weekly email I get, there a couple. Anyway, Jenny writes, "I was speaking with a writer this week who could see the light at the end of the tunnel on her novel. She was almost done and she was terrified. She could feel herself panicking and turning to other shiny new ideas. Anything that wasn't this almost done idea. Being done would mean that her work could be rejected. Being done would mean that her work could be judged. Being done would mean that her limitations and weaknesses as a writer would be on display for everyone to see. Being done would mean that whatever she had on the page was as good as she was able to do. Even if it wasn't anywhere close to the perfect story in her mind. Being done would mean that she would be exposed." I could really, really relate to that. And I think I'm not the only one. A lot of us start to let things go the minute we get anywhere close to the finish line, because the finish line is scary. And if that's the place where you are maybe now is the moment when you want to reach out and see about working with a writing coach. You might not need much a few weeks, a little bit of a push, a little bit of help, just to take that thing that you're working on, and get it through to not the almost best you can do (which you know allows a lot of room for imagining other things) but the actual best you could do and then make a real decision about what it is you'd like to do with it. If you're game for that, you should head over to authoraccelerator.com and click your way through to all the great places because we love them and there's also a lot of other good stuff there. While I'm here I also want to say that this episode includes a couple of small swear words here and there and also some weird commentary on vaginas. Because this is one of our dearest friends we're interviewing this week and we got a little bit weird. So letting you know that so if you have tiny ears around that you are concerned about? Honestly, it's no big on this one. I don't think that it will bother you, but I wanted to give you a heads up. Alright. Enjoy it. This is a great episode. Is it recording?

Jess Lahey 2:51

Now it's recording.

KJ Dell'Antonia 2:53

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone trying to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess Lahey 2:57

Alright, let's start over.

KJ Dell'Antonia 2:58

Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three.

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia. And this is #AmWriting. The podcast about writing all things, from fiction, to nonfiction, pitches, proposals, emails, essays. This is the podcast about sitting down and getting your writing work done.

Jess Lahey 3:27

I'm Jess Lahey, I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and the forthcoming book The Addiction Inoculation, Raising Healthy Kids in a Culture of Dependence, who the subtitles are always so tricky, and you can find my work on the old interwebs at The Atlantic and the New York Times and The Washington Post and lots of other places.

KJ Dell'Antonia 3:58

I am KJ Dell'Antonia, the author of the novel The Chicken Sisters coming out on July 1 of this year, which is 2020. For those of you listening in the future, when I hope things are not what they are now, but that is not what we are going to talk about today. We have a guest, our guest is Catherine Newman, who we've actually been trying to record with Catherine since like since like our 10th episode. But wait, I want to tell you about Catherine, she is a memoirist, a middle grade novelist, and etiquette columnist and now the author of How to Be a Person: 66 Highly Useful, Super Important Things to Learn Before You're Grown Up.

Jess Lahey 4:57

It's actually 65, but I think that we should invent a 66 while we're here.

KJ Dell'Antonia 5:22

Okay, no, I wasn't done. I wasn't done - because while she's at it, Catherine writes a cooking blog, she co-authored a book on crafts for kids, and she edits Chop Chop, a kid's cooking magazine, which I didn't even know till I just recently read her bio because I never read the bios of my friends because I'm supposed to know all this stuff, but I didn't. And she pens frequent funny essays for everything from O to The New York Times to The Cup of Joe website. In other words, she's putting a pastiche of writing together and making it work with an insouciance disregard for any and all advice about self branding, or owning a niche, or sticking to one topic or an identity, and in fact, I would argue that insouciance disregard might just be Catherine Newman's brand.

Catherine Newman 6:10

Oh, my God, that's it. I just feel like that's the mic drop. I'm so happy. I also feel like you just fully explained all the problems I have. It's my insouciance disregard.

Well, I loved your intro. My intro really would have been you know, this is Catherine Newman for me is the writer that, not only a person I adore and know personally, but as a writer she's the one who always figures out the new way to say the thing I have been feeling and yet felt so cliched that I never wrote it down. She always has some new amazing way to state it and then I'm like, 'Oh my gosh, how has no one ever said it that way before?' and it's so true and perfect and beautiful. And you know, for a lot of writers that write about parenting and this whole racket that we call life, often if they have a favorite piece, I often will say let me guess was it by Catherine Newman because her pieces just rank as people's favorites.

Jess Lahey 8:00

We love your stuff. But you guys, you and KJ have a much longer relationship than you and I do, Catherine. So KJ, tell them where you guys met.

KJ Dell'Antonia 8:09

I don't know where we met. I know that Catherine wrote for me at Motherlode but it must have been Wonder Time. The late great that says that it's not the greatest like the more I say the name now that it's gone, the dumber it sounds, but it really was. Yeah, okay. Soft sigh of regret. And while we're having soft sighs of regret for demises of magazines, I hear Family Circle just tanked. I mean, I know that was like in the fall, but...

Catherine Newman 8:49

I know I always feel like I'm there on that tiny little island of sinking magazines.

Jess Lahey 8:57

I'm just about to send out an email today saying Hi, want me to write anything? Anything you got - I'll write that thing.

KJ Dell'Antonia 9:40

Great. Okay, so here we are, finally, at last.

So okay. 65 (not 66) Highly Useful, Super Important Things to Learn Before You're Grown Up. Why that after a resume that includes two parenting memoirs, one crafting book, and one middle grade novel that was my middle grader at the time absolute total favorite, he even reviewed it for Parenting magazine.

Yeah, he still looks back on that with fondness because he has a hard time finding books that he likes. Anyway. And so from there you thought I know, the best thing and the easiest thing for me to market next would clearly be a book of useful things to learn before you're grown up. I don't think that's really how you did it.

Catherine Newman 10:37

Yeah, no, no, I know. Isn't that crazy? Really, the dirty truth is that I pitched it as a much worse book. I wanted a book, I went to the library to look for a book, I don't know if you ever end up writing this way where it's like, oh, this thing doesn't exist that I assumed existed. But I went to the library to get a book for Bertie, because I wanted her to do more helpful stuff in the house, but she didn't know how to do it. And she didn't want to be taught how to do it by anybody. So this is, second child has been wanting to do it by herself since she was two. And it's really hard with a person like that, who doesn't want to be shown how to do something and then you ask them like, 'Hey, can you clean the bathroom?' And she's like, 'I don't know how to do that.' But then if you try to show her she's pissed. So for Bertie it worked, so I went to the library to get I assumed like DK had made one of those like photo illustrated guides to chores, you know...

KJ Dell'Antonia 11:52

I might need that, there are things I don't really know how to do. Truth.

Catherine Newman 11:57

So I went to get that book from the library, like I walked in confidently, talked to the librarian and they were like, 'Yeah, we don't have a book like that.' So I was working with Story at the time (the publisher)and who I love and my editor there is an old person from Family Fun who I used to write all this fun stuff with.

KJ Dell'Antonia 12:22

That was also a fun place to write.

Catherine Newman 12:25

Oh my God, so fun. So she and I had worked on a piece that I think killed me called Chores Fun. So I pitched her the book Chores Fun and I wanted it to be photo illustrated, step by step, DK style. And she was interested, but needless to say that got higher up over there and they were like, 'No...'

KJ Dell'Antonia 12:50

And me, I want that book. I would buy 500 copies of that book.

Catherine Newman 12:58

So they then said, you know, can you expand it so it's not just that? And so the other thing I really had wanted to write was, I want to say etiquette, but I don't mean in the like uptight, sort of like how to talk to the Queen of England sons, just the like how to communicate sense of etiquette, like how to be a person who needs to communicate with other people. I had wanted to write a book about that, too. And so we sort of merged those. And the book for me is primarily that but then we broke it down a little so it seems like it's many more topics than communicating and like cleaning a bathroom. So there's some stuff about cooking, and some stuff about money, and some stuff about just general skills like you know, changing batteries and that's how it came to be. And so I have found both of my kids with galleys of the book open to learn whatever it is they need to do. Bernie has used the book to tie a necktie and swears it works. And when I had asked them to clean all the bathrooms at Thanksgiving, I went in and the book was like, propped up on the counter in the bathroom.

Jess Lahey 14:16

Oh my gosh, that's so brilliant.

KJ Dell'Antonia 14:17

I had not thought of that. We've been cleaning bathrooms like crazy around here and yeah, I discovered that one child claimed to have been taught to wipe the toilet with a Clorox wipe and then flush it. And when I tell you that we're on septic I can also tell you that that ended extremely badly with men in the basement and saws. Oh, God, yeah, that's not how to clean a toilet. And I really didn't tell her that either.

Catherine Newman 14:47

No, I can imagine.

KJ Dell'Antonia 14:49

Anyway, I have now taught this skill, but I feel that it needs refreshing so I'm gonna prop that up.

Jess Lahey 14:57

I'm gonna do the same thing. There's that forgetting of things that technically they should know. And as we've talked about a bajillion times for me - that one was laundry and we solved that with the dry erase markers on the washer and dryer with all of the instructions and the bathroom one seems to be the next frontier that we have to handle around here.

KJ Dell'Antonia 15:22

Well, the truth is that in this moment, any of us who did have someone who sometimes cleaned for us whether that was frequent or infrequent, don't have that. Anyway, most of us are, even if there's stuff that maybe we didn't have to do before, or we were teaching our kids to do it but they didn't necessarily have to do it I could kind of poke at it and that was fine because the person who really could do it was gonna be there in two weeks. So now it's like yeah, this is how you clean the toilet.

Jess Lahey 16:17

Here's the nice thing about this book also is that there are so many times when you show a kid how to do it and you're being a little overly controlling or they're like no one else does that, no one cleans behind the toilet seat, Mom, you can show them a book and say, 'Look, this is how an arbiter of how these things should be done is actually doing things.

KJ Dell'Antonia 16:55

So what has it been, like getting out there to share this book that is, in many ways, so different than from what you've done before?

Catherine Newman 17:18

I could ask you the same. You know, it's funny. The funny thing for me is that my first two books were so intimate that actually, it was really like trial by fire in terms of publishing. So when people would blur together sort of criticizing the book with criticizing me as a parent or even just me as a person, because the memoir genre kind of invites that and it was really little nerve racking, honestly. And so then after that there was fiction, which is so delightful because it's fiction. And there was a book I did with my friend Nicole, that craft book, which is so delightful, because a) it's a craft book, so no one's gonna, like take my character apart over it and b) it was with a friend. So you know, it's like how I used to love co-teaching when I was teaching, like it's so dreamy to have a partner in something because you're not stranded. So this is none of those. This is not a memoir. It's not fiction. I don't have a partner in it, but it doesn't feel dangerous to me. It just feels like oh, kids need to know how to do stuff. And I feel pretty good about it being useful. So I don't have like weird shame, you know the memoirs for me, I promoted them with shame. I mean, I had blathered on and on about all my deepest fears about parenting and my kids and then I had to go sell it and it was so humiliating and I just am feeling a delightful absence of shame around this book. So I don't know if that's what you asked or how I ended up there. So I'm feeling pretty happy. I feel like it's coming out. I actually weirdly feel like the timing for my book is good because lots of kids are home.

Jess Lahey 19:46

I'm in total agreement with you on that one.

Catherine Newman 19:50

And I feel like lots of parents genuinely need help. So it doesn't even feel artificial. You know, sometimes you have to teach your kids stuff even though it'd be much easier just to do it. I know you both know that because You both have talked to me about that, but I feel like this moment where I can say hey, I am well to welcome someone make dinner you know it doesn't feel like a learning avenue it's just real life and the kids are in it with us and they're old enough to see it, it doesn't feel contentious and so I guess I feel like this is actually not a bad moment for a book like that. You know, I'm so glad I don't have some book coming out about I don't even know. I think we're lucky like KJ I weirdly feel like this about your book too, that your book even though it's fiction, and it's like this total romance, it's so perfect because it offers something that people need in this moment, like I needed to read about these feuding fried chicken places. And it was like this ace in the hole for me that I knew I could just relax and read it and it was so that it was like the most incredibly pleasurable comforting diversion. So anyway, I feel like it would just be terrible to be coming out with a book that was like entering the workforce or you know, something that was like so not the moment for it...

KJ Dell'Antonia 22:06

Thank you for saying lovely things about The Chicken Sisters, I'm super excited to share it. And I am kind of with you, I had a lot of angst around How To Be a Happier Parent because I kept going, it's happier, and not better, either. I felt like, you know, who was I to talk and to say those things and so I felt a lot of stress around that, that I don't feel. You know, it's a fun novel. That's what it's supposed to be. And it is that and it's got pretty yellow cover, and I am looking forward to everyone being able to buy it.

Catherine Newman 22:54

No one's hoping to solve a problem with it, except maybe just wanting to be diverted. You won't fail, you know...

KJ Dell'Antonia 23:17

Did you find people pushing you to do something else that was more in line with what you've done before? You know does your agent say like 'Well, could you just write another memoir? Or a collection of essays perhaps.'

Catherine Newman 23:51

The funny thing is I'm a terrible pitcher. Like I really like for people to come to me and be like, 'You know what we need?' And I'm like, 'Sure, you know, because I am, as I have said for 20 years, I'm just a writing tramp. I will write whatever, as long as it doesn't like conflict with my politics, you know, but I've written you know, whatever copy to say that the tampons not gonna fall out of your body without ever using the word tampon or body. I mean, give me whatever and I will write it. Like I even like being assigned weird stuff because then it's like doing a crossword puzzle. You know, it doesn't ask that much of you emotionally. But, all of that is to say that I am not dying to publish another book of essays or another memoir and maybe at some point, I will. I mean, I have a lot of interest in all of us doing an anthology about like menopause. That would be really, really funny. But, I feel like something collaborative that was like more a collaborative essay project. And I feel the same way about writing about older kids. I would love to do it collaboratively. But I definitely don't want to write a whole book about it. My guess is if I do another book after this, it'll be an adult novel. Adult novel always sounds like it's porn... I have an adult novel I want to write that I've been sort of writing and it's that thing where now I don't know how to write it because I'm starting to lose track of the world before the pandemic, even though I lived in it for 50 years. So I don't know, that's always lingering around as a thing I want to write and then, you know, I want to write another book in this genre for Story for sure. And I wouldn't be surprised if that something happened, I don't know if it would be a follow up, or we would have to see, I guess.

Jess Lahey 27:25

So for writers that are wishing they can cobble together this Higgledy Piggledy, a little writing here, a little writing there a little of this genre. How I mean, I know it's impossible to say, I'm assuming you're not going to say, Oh, yes, I had this all written out. 10 years ago. This is exactly the path I have designed for myself.

Catherine Newman 27:44

You mean when I was getting a PhD for 10 years, but I then went on to not use? Yeah, that really wasn't the plan.

Jess Lahey 27:52

Yeah, that was while I was at law school, learning how to be a juvenile attorney. So you know, for those writers who look to us to have some sort of takeaway about how to create a life around writing for themselves? I mean, do you have anything you could share for us in terms of how you've managed to cobble together this really interesting career?

Catherine Newman 28:15

Well, thank you for calling it both Higgledy Piggledy and interesting because I think of it really as both of those. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, nothing that you haven't heard on this podcast before. I feel like the old improv yes and advice I do think about, I say no to nothing. Again, only if it conflicts with my politics. So I've never been proud and I continue not to be, I will write most things and I will work on most projects and I will give it away if it's a worthy cause. I'm more than happy to write something for someone doing something that's important. So I ended up with tons of relationships and I know you're both the same that for both of you that sort of one of the treasures of your writing and publishing life is these ongoing really well nurtured relationships and I don't I do it as well as you guys, truly. But that said, I do maintain relationships with everyone I've ever written for and they end up who knows where like, you write the shitty Kotex copy and then that person goes to O Magazine, I just feel all the time like people move around so much. And as long as I make myself easy to work with, and available, then I feel like I get a lot of assignments just because those two things turn out to be, I think marketable skills weirdly.

Jess Lahey 30:10

I find it shocking that you say you're not as good at it because we had never met, I admired your writing so much, and you agreed to have coffee with me never having met me before when I happened to be in your town. So I disagree that you are not very good at cultivating these relationships and you know, whenever I talk about your writing, people talk about the fact that they really admire you as a writer, so I think that you do a really good job of that.

Catherine Newman 30:42

Well, thank you. I loved the idea too, that you like called me out of the blue. I totally was already stalking you.

KJ Dell'Antonia 30:58

Catherine, I think you have a gig right now that a lot of writers would both kill for and also feel like well hey I could do that, I could weigh in on etiquette issue real simple and getting a column is kind of the gold standard of what people want that's hard to achieve and I get a lot of questions about it and I'm not at all helpful. So I would like to give you the opportunity to be not at all helpful - like how did it happen?

Catherine Newman 31:36

Oh my god, it was so like a one thing and another and it was exactly the thing of an editor I'd worked with somewhere unglamorous ended up at Real Simple. And then I wrote something for her there and their etiquette columnist was leaving, they asked me to audition which was so nerve racking. so I The question was something like my cousin without talking to us named her twins after my twins like what would you do?

So I it was just luck but a lot of my luckiest things (seemingly luckiest things) come from having said yes to really outrageous things either low paying things or things that I wrote for a good cause. I would just say for me, I think almost everything good in my career has come from a certain openness and willingness. You know, it's like when my kids were little and they were writing thank you notes for shitty presents, you know that they didn't like and weren't happy to get and I would say there's always something true you can say that's gonna be real, like someone gave you a gift that in and of itself is something to be thankful for and you can express that. That sounds so corny, but whatever. That's how I am. And I think like almost any opportunity I'm given to write I do feel like there's an opportunity to make some kind of meaning out of it, if that makes sense. Either to take pleasure in the writing or to say something funny or to get a little philosophy into it or a little politics into it. And so I guess I think of even the weirdest stuff as an opportunity, which I think is a head game I play with myself because I'm never going to be successful enough to not need to keep writing all this stuff all the time. You know, I am just constantly writing and that feeling I have of everything being a little bit of an opportunity, you know, we're all writers, because we're curious about the world, I feel like at bottom, that's probably the main thing we all have in common. And you can always express that, you know what I mean? Even if it's something that feels sort of random. So that's a long way to say that I think every writing gig is an opportunity. I mean, unless somewhere wealthy is grossly under paying you then don't do that. Like they can't do that. That's wrong. But I just mean, you know, some of the stuff that isn't like a perfect fit or isn't high profiler isn't very glamorous, those things have always led to other things for me, almost, almost inevitably, in a way that I feel like is karmic in the true sense of what you put out into the world comes back to you.

KJ Dell'Antonia 34:51

We talk about things in that category a lot because we make a practice of getting annoyed with each other whenever we say I got lucky because yes, we have been lucky but yeah, fortune favors the well prepared. You know, Dax Shepard can't ask you on his podcast and Kristen Bell can't share your book unless you have written it and perhaps presented it to her. Yes, some things land and some things don't. But if you don't throw any paper airplanes up ain't nothing gonna hit.

Catherine Newman 36:05

I feel like it's partly luck and partly this other gendered thing, which is I am a pleaser and I have really mixed feelings about that because on the one hand like I have raised Bertie to not be a pleaser...

KJ Dell'Antonia 36:25

You wrote about that for me at Motherlode and it's such a hysterical piece and it made people so delighted and so angry at the same time.

Catherine Newman 36:32

Yeah, but I am such a pleaser and that has served me really well in my career. And I never as a feminist, I always have really mixed feelings about it because some of it feels really gendered to me that I'm friendly. Let me say as a side note to my own comment that I was just making. I think one of the beauties of freelancing is that you can't take any of your relationships for granted and you shouldn't anyway, I mean, I really feel that right. If you're in a workplace, you should always be nurturing your relationships and taking care of everybody in that way. But freelancing, no one ever has to hire you again. It reminds me a little bit, if you will, of waiting tables, which I was excellent at. Where you're always gonna do best if you were your sort of best self if what you put out is the best version of yourself it's gonna bring you the best work and connect you to the best people. And the truth is, it actually makes my life good because I mostly have positive interactions and that's so much better for me than getting into bed at night and be like Oh God, I had the worst interaction with somebody. So if something's kind of weird I'll like die about it. And I just feel like freelancing I mostly have to be somebody that people would want to hire. You know, I know I keep sounding like such a w***e. But there it is.

KJ Dell'Antonia 38:21

That's kind of how it works some of the time. So Catherine, what have you been reading?

Catherine Newman 39:59

So truly The Chicken Sisters was my segue back into reading but I wanted to mention a book that actually I was reading right before that, which was (I don't know if you've talked about it on the podcast), but the Chanel Miller book, Know My Name. I admired it so much. I just love her and I love her as an illustrator and I just love everything about her. And as a memoir, I thought the gift of being able to write about something so terrible, with so much love and optimism just blew me away. Like, it's everything I ever sort of wanted to be as a writer. And that book just killed me. I thought it was so incredibly good. I almost wanted to read it again to study it.

Jess Lahey 41:32

I didn't know she was a writer, so I was a little nervous. And then I was so blown away, especially towards the second half. I found there were a few moments in the first half where I wasn't totally with her, but then it just picked up steam in terms of it felt to me almost that she got to be a better writer during the process of writing it and at the end of it I went off for a walk in the woods by myself because I had to sort of just process that book. It was exquisite. It was so well done

Catherine Newman 41:59

I had honestly just the exact same. I read it because I felt like this kind of moral obligation as a feminist not to turn away from the story, was so I felt like I should read this book. I picked it up with a dread of obligation. And then it's just sang, it was so beautiful. So that book and Bertie read it after and was crazy about it. And so that book, I have other books, but I want to hear what you're reading, too.

Jess Lahey 42:47

KJ, you want to go next?

KJ Dell'Antonia 42:57

I've started some books. Okay. I'm going to tell you that I'm rereading a book, because I can tell you with confidence that I love this book and I have enjoyed it. I think this is a multiple read. I've read this many times because it's just soothing and kind of wonderful. And I think I've talked about it on the podcast.

Catherine Newman 43:15

Can I guess? Is it I Capture the Castle?

KJ Dell'Antonia 43:19

No, but I do like that. No, not at all. It's a memoir, and it's called Recipes for a Beautiful Life by Rebecca Berry. She wrote it in like 2008 or it takes place in like 2008 so it's got a lot of the the economy crash in there as she and her family are moving. We all know I'll read anything in which a family moves to a small town in a rural place and makes a new life for themselves. Anyway, I have really enjoyed that. So that is what I can guarantee for you. I have started The Henna Artist and I really like it so far. I'm gonna mangle her name so I'm going to look it up for the show notes. At chapter three I'm really liking it, but we all know how that could go, but I don't think it will.

Jess Lahey 44:22

Well I have to start with I listened to the audio of Sarina Bowen's newest book Sure Shot and I got to talk about it with her because she did some really interesting things in there and we were talking a little bit. We were talking about authors who are gardeners and they plant seeds for new things and Sarina just did an exquisite job in this book. I love her books from just a listening to the story perspective but I also love watching her go and sort of planting the seeds for the books that will follow in the series because she writes books in a series and this is one of the Brooklyn Bruisers hockey books and I just from a technical perspective adored listening to Sure Shot her new hockey romance. But it's funny KJ that you said the thing about small town and comfort and making a life in a small town thing because my comfort listen this past couple of weeks on and off has been Animal Vegetable Miracle by Barbara Kingsolver because I've been prepping my gardens, I've spent so much time not writing as much but doing a ton of gardening and so listening to Barbara Kingsolver while I do that has been has been just wonderful. And the last thing I just finished last night was another Harlan Coben, this one was called Missing You and it was really clever. And we have to try to get Harlan Coben on the show because he does this thing that Sarina had told me about that he's known for, which is the the climax at the end of the book, except it's got two peaks, not one. Like you think you've hit the climax and you have the answers and then he hits you again, with a second sort of twist climax. And it's so it's his thing. He does it over and over and over again. And he's so good at it. The guy plots a book like nobody's business, so I'm dying to talk to him. So if anyone out there knows Harlan Coben, I would love to talk to him about how he plots his books. But anyway, so that's been what I've been listening to and it's been all listening. A little bit of reading books in hand but mostly listening because I've been out in the garden.

Catherine Newman 47:25

Can I mention one other book? I just so what I just read is my friend Amity Gage's book, Sea Wife. And it's not at all comforting at all takes place on a sailboat. And it's a young family, a married couple and kids on this sailboat and it's a kind of a thriller and kind of a mystery. And I feel like it's one of the best books I've ever read about parenting even though it's a novel, and I tore through it but it's very breathless and like terrifying so...

KJ Dell'Antonia 48:10

Well that has its place at the moment, too. Because then you forget where you are.

Catherine Newman 48:15

I was really caught up in it and it's also just incredibly lyrical. Like some of the sentences I would read twice just because it was so gorgeous. So I'm recommending that as a total escape-like thriller.

Jess Lahey 48:54

I went yesterday, I have to say I went yesterday to pick up a book from the Vermont Bookshop in Middlebury, Vermont, and there was no one at the shop but they had this beautiful cart outside the door with everyone's orders labeled and covered with some plastic and it was just the most delightful way to get out and and go 'shopping' even though I couldn't shop it worked really nicely. Booksellers are working so hard to make that work. Catherine, thank you for being so patient with us while we worked out the details of how we were going to have you on the show. It shouldn't have taken us this long, but we're very happy that you were patient with us.

Catherine Newman 49:48

Oh my gosh, my pleasure. Talking to you is a highlight of my week and life.

Jess Lahey 49:55

Well, and I'm going to recommend that people go ahead and preorder How to Be a Person...

KJ Dell'Antonia 50:03

They won't have to preorder it will be out by the time this is out.

Jess Lahey 50:07

It's just such a delightful book. It's such a fun read, I'm going to be giving it as like part of a baby gift. I'm going to have copies around to give to people constantly. I have a neighbor I'm giving it to as a gift. So I'm so excited to have just multiple copies around the house.

Catherine Newman 50:26

You guys are so supportive I could cry.

Jess Lahey 50:33

Oh Catherine, where can people find you if they want to find out more about your higgledy piggledy career?

Catherine Newman 51:06

CatherineNewman writer.com I think.

Jess Lahey 51:44

Until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 213 Book Launching Fun with #GoodreadsAmazonBookBub May 29, 2020

When your book launches, you want to meet your readers where they are: anywhere people are talking about—or better yet, buying—books. Of course we want to support our local Indies (that’s why the links here are all to Bookshop.org)—but if there are readers on Amazon, we’re going to be there too. This week, we’re talking about how to get yourself set up on Amazon, Goodreads and Bookbub—and why you absolutely should.

For more info, check out our past Writer Top Fives on setting up your Amazon, Goodreads and Bookbub pages. Usually, Top Fives and Minisodes go out to our supporters, but we’ve made these three available to everyone—because the info in them is so great, and maybe a little because this way, you can see what you’re missing. If now’s your time to sign up to support the podcast, click the button.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 212: Don't Just Say #TheBookWasBetter May 22, 2020

She might just have the perfect job. This week, Jess and I interview Abbe Wright, Senior Editor at ReadItForward.com and co-host of The Adaptables, a podcast that hashes over every detail of the movies and shows that are adapted from the books we love.

Links from the pod:

I wanted to break up. Then he got a tattoo of my name.

Read It Forward Podcast

The Adaptables

The Longform Podcast

Bookbento (Read It Forward’s Instagram)

Little Fires Everywhere by Celeste Ng

Normal People by Sally Rooney

#AmReading

Abbe: All Adults Here by Emma Straub

Jess: Why Fish Don’t Exist by Lulu Miller

Nerve by Eva Holland

Why We Swim by Bonnie Tsui

KJ: The Address Book by Deirdre Mask

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 211 #WriterGoals, Pandemic Version May 15, 2020

Back in December 2019, we set #WriterGoals for 2020.

We had no idea. This week, we go back in and revisit—which goals still stand? Which do we have to let go, and which just don’t feel right any more? Was there any point in setting these goals in the first place?

In the end, we decide (not very cheerfully, it has to be admitted) that while our goals are necessarily changing, they’re always worth setting and revisiting. We’ll all be settling down to think differently about what we hope for in what’s left of 2020.

Are you revising your 2020 goals, or sticking to plan A? Head over to the #AmWriting Facebook group and tell us about it.

#AmReading

KJ: Undercover Bromance by Lyssa Kay Adams

The Body in the Garden by Katharine Schellman

Sarina: The Southern Book Club’s Guide to Slaying Vampires by Grady Hendrix

Jess: Audible Original: David Sedaris, Themes and Variations

Rat by Stephen King (found in the If It Bleeds novella collection)

Hey—now is a great time to check out our sponsor, Author Accelerator, where you can launch a career as a book coach or get paired with the right coach to get your project moving.

And if you’d like to support the creation of #AmWriting, we’d appreciate your help! Supporters get weekly Minisodes or Writer Top Fives—and our undying gratitude. Want in? Click the button.

KJ (00:01):

Hey everyone. KJ. Here we are talking writer goals again this week. It's our midyear review - pandemic style. If you're setting your own goals for the rest of 2020 our sponsor Author Accelerator can help you start a new side gig as a book coach or match you with a coach who can help you work through challenges both on the page and in the calendar for getting your current project done. Find out more at authoraccelerator.com/amwriting. Is It recording?

Jess (00:33):

Now it's recording. Go ahead.

KJ (00:35):

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess (00:39):

Alright, let's start over.

KJ (00:40):

Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things, short things, long things, fiction, nonfiction, essays, pitches, proposals, and as we say every week, this is the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done.

Jess (01:11):

I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and a forthcoming book about preventing substance abuse in kids called The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my writing at places like the Atlantic and the New York Times and the Washington Post.

Sarina (01:25):

And I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of some romance novels. My most recent USA Today bestseller was Heartland, which came out in early 2020.

KJ (01:35):

And I am KJ Dell'Antonia, the author of the novel, The Chicken Sisters, which is coming out in June of this year as well as How To Be a Happier Parent already long out in hardback, but coming out in paperback this summer. And actually that's still happening, which I'm pretty pleased about. And the former editor of the Motherlode blog at the New York Times where I am still a reasonably regular contributor. And that's who we are. And where we are is in our houses, which is actually where we all are. But you know, it bears mentioning on this the 9th of May, 2020. Yeah.

Jess (02:15):

Which contributes to our topic today. You want to tell everybody what we want to talk about today?

KJ (02:22):

Oh sure. So we're gonna revisit our goals. Every year around this time we like to take a little mid-year review. We usually do it in June, so I guess we're doing it a touch early, but it has occurred to us that perhaps some of our goals are not going to be the same for the rest of the year. So it seemed like it was a good time to sit down and take a look at what we thought we were going to achieve, what we have achieved and what we're still hoping to achieve. So we've all got them lined up right here in front of us and away we go.

Jess (02:56):

Who wants to go first?

Sarina (02:57):

I would love to open.

Jess (03:00):

Oh, please do.

Sarina (03:02):

Well, you know, we all are fans of Dan Blank who has been a guest on this podcast and also has his own terrific podcast as well. And Dan Blank's podcast is called The Creative Shift. So he sends out a weekly newsletter that is pure gold and you should subscribe.

KJ (03:26):

It really is, it's one of the best ones I know of.

Sarina (03:29):

So, two Fridays ago, he sent one out that began with sharing a New Yorker cartoon that really speaks to what it's like to be a writer right now. And it's a picture of a guy in a rowboat in the middle of a choppy body of water. And you can see there's a shark, and there's a ship sinking behind him, and there's lightning, and it's raining. And the caption says, 'This is it - the time to finish your novel.' And I love it desperately because, you know, remember back in March when we were all like, Hey, what are we going to accomplish while we're stuck at home? Or how about when the three of us (and I'm so happy we did this, I wouldn't change a thing), but we sat and recorded an episode in December right before our office party where we go out together for lunch and we very cheerfully made a list of goals for 2020. Not having any clue that 2020 would shape up to be quite unlike most of the other years that we've sat around planning things together. So I think we should revisit those goals and see what is capable on here. And what have we learned about goal making from our lists.

Jess (04:54):

I was going to say the first thing I've learned is to be flexible, and to shift, and to adjust to your surroundings. Cause clearly that's the theme of the day. Alright. So what'd you have on there, Ms. Sarina?

Sarina (05:10):

Well, you know, many of my goals could really stand up in terms of getting the same things done. Especially where I had goals about helping other people, and helping other authors, and helping other women. And those things are all still true and I've been trying to do more of that. But of course I had some goals about like how much I was going to accomplish in terms of writing. And, you know, I'm not teaching anybody to read right now because my kids are old enough to handle this stuff by themselves. But, I didn't count account for my own potential anxiety and the difficulties of making career decisions when the whole world seems to be shifting. So goal I'm having the most trouble with is the one where I was writing an entire book to give to my agent to sell in a new genre for me and that suddenly feels insurmountable even though my work day could look the same because I don't know if that part of publishing is going to be there for me when I'm done. And that's like a mental obstacle to doing that.

Jess (06:19):

You mean the YA genre?

Sarina (06:21):

Yeah. Well, you know, unfortunately I have a lot of knowledge of economics and I'm watching businesses fail around me. And I have like a mental block about writing into a publishing world that might not exist when I'm done.

Jess (06:42):

Yeah, I hear that. Absolutely.

KJ (06:47):

I am still plowing through, my top number one goal was to finish a book that has now got a different title than it had in my list of goals, but that is fine. Who knows what the title is going to be, but that was my top number one goal was to finish it, and then hopefully get it out, and pitch it to editors. And that is still my top goal despite the obvious changes in the publishing market. I'm not struggling with that as much, but it's probably because I don't have the alternative that you have. Like you could put your time into stuff that you can independently publish and you know you will be there, and readers will be there, and digital book sales will be there. So, it's different, you've got a different choice there.

Sarina (07:42):

I was just going to say that the fact that most of my publishing is digital is such a blessing and I just don't discount it at all. And also my fear about that other project is not entirely rational, but part of me is in that rowboat with the guy in the thunder storm. And I'm not sure what to do about that. Like how to disembark.

Jess (08:09):

Well, it was interesting, someone asked a question in the #AmWriting Facebook group this week about this question and said, 'You know, what's everyone doing? Like are we pitching? Are we querying? Are agents picking up new clients? And are people buying books?' And so I went ahead and asked our agent and I said, 'I don't have to quote you or anything.' And she said, 'Hell yes, people are buying.' She said, she's had a couple of auctions. She said, you can totally quote me that people are buying, people are looking, that things are still chugging along in book sale world. I think a lot of people are scared about releasing right now, which is a really scary, new world sort of situation. But people are still buying books. People are still picking up new writers. So there was that sort of gut check of, Oh, there is some normalcy happening out there and our agent is not the kind of person to be you know, to be blindly optimistic. She's the kind of person to give it to you like it is.

KJ (09:18):

Yeah. Or even worse than it is. My fiction agent says the same thing and my editor says she's acquiring. So people are acquiring of course, whether they're like whistling Dixie and a thunderstorm is another question. But, they're trying, everybody wants to keep going. And I would like to have a book to sell them. I would very much like to have a book to sell them. What I am finding is that the speed at which I can complete this is totally different than it used to be. Even when I'm sitting down to work, I can't work as fast. Both because I think my focus is off and because my house is full of people. People everywhere, everywhere I look, there's another person and they eat. They just won't stop eating.

Jess (10:25):

Yeah. I'm the place of, Oh my gosh, dinner really does happen every single day. Like everyone's on their own for breakfast and lunch. But that dinner thing, that's our sort of reconnect with each other. We're still doing dinner. Dinner is important to us. And because I have big eaters, they tend to start asking at like 4:45. I'll get these texts. So what's the thought for dinner? So dinner happens every day, shockingly. And that's actually been, if anything, a positive for our family. So having something, you know, to eat evening and sit down and even if it's just like last night I threw together a soup. It's been a good thing, but it is shocking to me how much they can eat. But on the other hand, like our grocery bills are freaking me out. But on the other hand we are not eating out at all. So we don't even do takeout. But KJ, did you finish? Can I start talking about mine? Because mine go in a weird direction.

KJ (11:26):

Well I didn't. I mean, the goal of finishing that book is the only one that stays the same. I have essay goals on here and I am just not feeling the essays right now cause it feels like the only essays I can write would be about this. And I don't want to write about this. I really don't. I know a lot of people do, but I really, really, really, really, really don't. So you know, I had humor on here. I wanted to do some of that. Does it have to be covid humor? I don't know. So there's that. My promotion goals around The Chicken Sisters, the ones that are on here are still the same because... Podcast goals. Yeah. Well the shift is in how, but I didn't really write how into my goals.

Jess (12:20):

No, I mean the real fact for you is that some of the things that you were counting on, some of them in there are not happening.

KJ (12:28):

So, no, but it's not like everybody else is out there hawking their books face to face and I'm not, so I am not as bothered by that as as I might be. You know, the advantage to it (as an introvert who's not super into travel) I really wanted to do these things, but not doing them is okay too. In some ways.

Jess (12:57):

Can I just offer another silver lining to this though, is that it's unbelievable to me how generous other writers are being with each other right now. I know you and I have both bought a bunch of books that we may or may not ever read just because we're supporting our fellow authors out there. And I think it's a fantastic thing. And I mentioned in another podcast that I'm a new devotee of this long form podcast and on that they're talking to a lot of writers right now who are trying to release books during this and they're talking about the generosity of other authors. So that's been really lovely to see. So hopefully some of that will kick in for you too, KJ.

KJ (13:37):

I think it will. I feel pretty good and I'm having a really good time. One thing I'm having a good time with is that when this all started someone mentioned to me that the warehouse might not be able to send out advanced copies anymore. And I went, 'Oh, so wait, they're just sitting there? So would they just put them in a box and send them to me?' So they did. I basically have all the remaining advanced reader copies. And so I'm sending the Good Reads giveaway winner copies and I'm sending all the bookstagrammers and I ultimately spent a lot of time sort of going, which would be the very best bookstagrammers. And last week I was just like, you know, I'm just going to send these to the bookstagrammers that I follow and that follow me and that are sort of in my universe and that'll be happy and excited to get it. And I've been doing that and it feels really fun. So that's entertaining.

Jess (14:40):

That's a very cool thing. Plus, you know, there's the whole decorating of them. But Sarina, you had something you wanted to mention to KJ.

Sarina (14:46):

I did because when she was talking about essays, it made me realize that how much of the news I'm reading is all focused on the same thing. So that means that relevancy is suddenly like a little bit of a wrench in our goals because you could still write essays, you still have the time, and you still have the voice, but the relevancy of the things that you were probably going to work on is just gone. And I'm struggling with some relevancy, too. It takes a whole lot of optimism to write romance and you know, I'm a little bit stuck on that. And even just literally, I looked at the epilogue of one of my hockey books and I had my team winning the cup in June of 2020 and guess what? There isn't even going to be a cup in June of 2020 and it never occurred to me. Like I try not to paint myself into a corner. I do it all the time anyway, but it never in my wildest dreams occurred to me that there would not be a champion.

Jess (15:53):

It takes an extra layer of imagination, too. I mean, you're already constructing new worlds for your books and now suddenly you're having to like construct a whole world for your own world so that you can construct those. I mean, you have to have a certain level of optimism. You have to have a certain level of ability to envision a world in which your characters are not going through this, not touching each other thing. And I mean, look at that. You are trying to write about people who are so much touching each other in a world where no one's allowed to touch each other. I mean, it's a really weird thing.

Sarina (16:25):

It is. And I saw a really funny tweet from a narrator who was doing a book and he, without naming the book said, 'You know, this book really confused me. I was telling my friend because it not a lot happens. There's not a lot of conflict. They go to Ikea and buy some furniture and I was just waiting for the conflict.' And the friend said to this narrator, 'Dude, what you just described is like science fiction at this point.'

Jess (16:56):

That's true. That's absolutely true. Yeah. Alright, well I wanted to talk about the fact that so I actually did finish the edits on my manuscript. That was my number one goal, finish the edits on the manuscript and you know, it wasn't anything like Gift of Failure but there was still some heavy lifting to do. And I got them done. I'm looking at the date actually I got them done well before the date that I was hoping to get them done by. And the reason I wanted to get them done by that date was that I wanted to have a new proposal or at least the shortened version to show my agent cause she has no idea still what I'm thinking about. And I wanted to have that to her by April 15th and of course that was smack in the middle of just trying to wrap my head around all of this stuff. And you know, for me also personally, it's been anxiety provoking. Like I can sit here in my house, in the woods. I was telling my husband, this is a really weird paradoxical thing. I don't go out very often, obviously, but when I do go out, I get pretty depressed because here in my home I can ignore it and I can kind of forget about it for short periods of time. But going out in the world has been just scary and weird and anyway, so the worst of this stuff has come right at a time when I was hoping to get a new proposal done. And so what I've decided to do is give myself a break and I'm doing a lot of my research through audio. And while I'm listening, I keep a notebook near me, but I am outside. Because for the first time since I started a speaking career that runs on an academic schedule, I've never been home in time to get really good gardens ready for the growing season. And I definitely never got gardens in my new house. And I've always felt a little adrift without my gardens. So I've been giving myself a big fat break. And I leave the house as soon as I'm done with my stuff in the morning and I go outside and I don't come in until I have to get that infernal daily dinner thing going again. I walk in at the end of the day and I look at my husband and I say, 'I am just so happy outside.' And the other thing was because of all this anxiety, I wasn't sleeping very well and just exhausting myself during the day outside, and just being sore, and tired, and drained has been much better for my sleep. So I'm giving myself a big fat break right now, in terms of the writing part. Definitely still researching, loving listening to all the audio, but giving myself a big fat break, thinking of it as a little vacation has been really important to me. And I have gardens now. I have the bare bones gardens down and it makes me so happy and I finally feel like this house is mine again. You know, it finally is a place where I live. And and that's been fantastic. So yeah. And then the rest of my goals were things like, so finish the edits, got those done on time, finish the new proposal, totally didn't happen on time. But that was my own internal schedule and that's okay. And then back with you on the essay thing, cause I had complete five essays for collection by the end of the year. I've definitely thought about them. And for me that's a big thing cause I do a lot of the thinking, the writing internally first, and then I just of get it down. But yeah, I'm not writing about covid and these essays are about things that are so unrelated to that. And so it's just been close to impossible to get that essay writing done. But I'm feeling better now and I feel like that's going to come back online really soon. Our friend Mary Laura Philpott has sold a new essay collection and I happen to know that she's trying to get down to work on that. And so, I'm sort of mentally trying to partner with Mary Laura and be thinking about those essays. Spanish was a big one and I haven't done that. I just absolutely 100% failed at that. We had some goals around Spanish that were going to culminate with some big Spanish speaking for a trip that got canceled. Well and now my thoughts have shifted also to things like I'm starting to freak out about some of the spring speaking events. You know, a big source of my anxiety around an inability to stay focused for a few minutes at a time has to do with money stuff because my non-writing income went poof. And that's the majority of my income. So that's been challenging. And my husband works for a hospital that just announced that all of the top level people will all take pay cuts. And so my husband's taking a pay cut in the midst of this as well. And then if anyone's been following my social media, they know we just spent the equivalent of a small used car on our dog who almost died. So that's a stressful thing, too. And yet we're so fortunate, I'm not scared about paying our rent, but I am just anxious. If I had to rewrite my goals now, it would be do more of what's making me feel really good right now. And that's making me feel really good right now.

KJ (22:42):

Well that's a good question. Are we going to rewrite our goals? I think it might be worth sitting down and doing. Because one of the other reason that some of this stuff happened - I've got some goals here around the podcast, and the email list, and marketing with other podcasts. There's no reason I can't do those things other than that I've got about three hours of brain power in me every day and I use it up on writing the book and then I just have so much less steam than I used to have. I don't know. I guess it's the anxiety, I guess it's that. But you know, I used to be able to sort of write in the morning and then go back to do all the other stuff in the afternoon. And it's also all the household stuff. It's all this stuff, all this stuff. And some of these are just like we were saying, I just don't necessarily want to focus on that as much anymore.

Jess (23:37):

Okay, well then put a line through it. I'm putting a line through the Spanish one. I'm letting myself off the hook for that. You know what, I was just looking at number five, which was one email a month for my email list. And my email list has gone up a lot this year because of some high visibility podcasting I've done. But I'm really glad we're doing this today because that is a good kick in the pants for me. But you know what I've done that's been also really wonderful. I think I'm just missing teaching so much that I've been doing this thing on Twitter where I teach about rhetorical devices and I do a long thread and you could see the smile on my face while I'm doing them. It makes me so happy. I'm like pulling all these books off the shelves and it's teaching and I'm having so much fun. So I'm going to keep doing that. And you know, doing more of that I think would be really super fun for me. So I may even stick that in instead.

KJ (24:37):

That is so funny because I said one of the things we could talk about today is changing our approach to social media. And you said, 'Oh, I didn't change anything.' I was like, 'Yes, you did.' That's what I was thinking of. You know, we're filling in some gaps of things that we used to do in real life with social media. And I feel like that is one for you. And if you could or wanted a new teaching job, you certainly couldn't get it now. So you have found that. I've been connecting a lot more on Instagram. I've been going back into Twitter, which I had been out of for literally years. Trying to find ways to use Facebook that don't involve getting sucked in. And actually I'm on Instagram way too much. I need to stop. But also feeling like it really is providing a connection and a place to talk about books and things that are important to me. Like these are the conversations I might normally be having, like at a hockey game or in line at the grocery store or at the bookstore over coffee or whatever. And now they're taking place online in different ways. So that was what I was thinking of, but I was also thinking about you. How about you, Sarina, have you changed your social media at all?

Sarina (25:54):

Well yeah, but it's not all sunny around here. I've had to take some breaks, some like multi-day breaks from social media just because it feeds my anxiety when I can see people sort of emoting about the same things that I'm worried about. I have to walk away because sometimes it just amplifies all the things I'm worried about. So I think taking some steps back has really helped me. And plus I don't want to amplify my own...I feel very brittle right now and I don't really want to be brittle on social media, so I've just had to sort of back away.

Jess (26:37):

It's funny you say that because now thinking back, just about every time you text that you're freaking out about something, it's because you saw something on social media that just triggered you. So I think that's fantastic.

Sarina (26:47):

I mean, I'm more caught up on news right now than I've ever been in my entire life, but it's not such a great thing because the reason I can't walk away from Washington Post and the New York Times is that I'm looking for someone to tell me what's going to happen. And of course they can't really do that, but that's why I keep going back. So I've had to kind of step away from that, too. Not because news is bad, but because it can't serve what I'm really searching for.

Jess (27:22):

Didn't you say that you were on Google for something and you realize that there was a commonly searched for question on Google, which was what's going to happen? I don't think Google can even do that.

Sarina (27:42):

I love to see what other people are searching on Google. And I will stop and screenshot them if they're particularly wonderful.

Jess (27:52):

Oh, can I tell you something really cool? At Google headquarters in California I got to speak there after Gift of Failure came out and they took me through and I got a really cool tour and one of the things they have as a staircase and on the riser for each step of the staircase are the most Googled things so you can watch in real time on the staircase as all the things that people are Googling changes. And it was really cool while I was there looking at other stuff. They also have this room you can stand in and it screens all around you like floor to ceiling screens all around you and you can enter any search term you want. It could be you, for example. So I entered Jessica Lahey to see sort of what the world sees when they look at me across all platforms. And it allows you to see like does your website match up? You know, do you have a brand that has unifying themes, blah blah blah. And it was just really interesting to see how does my website match up with what's going on on Twitter and what's going on on all these different platforms. It was really kind of cool. That was kind of fun. But I'm sorry I totally took things off the rails because you were talking about what's going to happen and no one being able to tell you that.

Sarina (29:07):

Yep. And they still can't so it doesn't really matter.

Jess (29:09):

Well what has been interesting is from, and I know you're looking a lot at a lot of this through an economic lens, cause that's who you are. But my son is studying economics and can you imagine - this is when my kid is getting his introduction to the world of economics, like this is such a weird and bizarre time and he has a summer job that is (and I don't think I'm allowed to say where it is yet because I don't think anything's been signed) but it's at the epicenter of what's going on economically. And so we've been talking about it a lot, but from a very academic perspective, which has been interesting. I guess it allows me to sort of set it over there and have a bit of a reserve around it. But I mean it's not like it's good news. It's just academic instead of about like our personal economic situation. Can I interject one tiny thing? Can you all look at your word? I have them all in front of me right now. How are you feeling about your words?

Sarina (30:18):

I still like my word.

KJ (30:18):

I hate my words.

Jess (30:23):

Okay. Well my word was practice and I'm actually still feeling good about that because it's a good reminder to me that it's not about having these huge breakthroughs. It's about the daily practice of either thinking about structuring, blah, blah, blah. So I'm still happy with that. Sarina, your word was, do you remember?

Sarina (30:39):

Abundance.

Jess (30:40):

How are you feeling about that?

Sarina (30:41):

Well, honestly, I should still tape it up into every room I walk through because the truth is it's pretty abundant around here. Ebooks are still performing. My life is fine. It's just a little more anxious than it used to be.

KJ (30:59):

And my word was magic and I'm not feeling very magical right now. Although honestly, I am up and down every day. I don't want to be Pollyanna about this. Nobody is happy about what is happening, but I suppose it is a little magical that my family has not killed each other in the 67 days that we have been largely cooped up together. That is kind of magical. And I was thinking that I might put some magic in a next book draft, after this one. I don't know, maybe that will happen. Yeah, magic did not turn out to be a super helpful for this time.

Jess (32:11):

Speaking of magical thinking and inhabiting fantasy lands that don't exist. Should we talk a little bit about what we've been reading? Alright. Sarina you want to lead off again since you went first last time?

Sarina (32:24):

Well, I'm reading something that KJ gave me. The Southern Book Club's Guide to Slaying Vampires by Grady Hendrix. This was a book that spotted before KJ bought it and I thought, I'm just happy that book exists. The writing is terrific. His writing game is super strong from the first paragraph of the prologue and I am intrigued.

Jess (32:58):

Oh, good. Cool. What about you KJ?

KJ (33:01):

Well, I'm reading a book, Sarina gave me. I am reading Undercover Bromance by Alyssa Kay Adams. We need to book club on this one, Sarina. We need to have a discussion, but like her previous book in this series, The Bromance Book Club. It is fun, satisfying, fast paced, and distracting. And that's about everything I ask of a book right now. And I also am reading The Body in the Garden by Catherine Schellman. This is a historical mystery and I have not read very much in the mystery genre for many, many years. And it's kind of fun to see that in a same way that historical romances have taken a real turn for having a modern way of thinking within the historical romance as opposed to trying to keep people thinking as they might have in the time. This mystery also sort of falls into that category. It has a modern attitude within a historical time and space and that makes it fun. And that's by Catherine Schellman. So again, fun, distracting, light. Just what we need.

Jess (34:16):

Yeah, I I have a book I want to talk about today cause there's something really interesting in it and it's not something that you guys normally read is two things. Number one for the audio listeners out there David Sedaris released an Audible original. It's not a huge deal. Don't get too excited. It's only 30 minutes long. It's called Themes and Variations, but it's essentially him just riffing about the people he talks to on book tour and the things they talk about. I think it was like $1.89 or something like that. But I got so excited when I saw it and I've already listened to it three times just because I needed a little David Sedaris back in my life. But the thing I went and listened to is I saw that there was a new Stephen King coming out and a former guest on our podcast, Ruth Franklin, wrote the review of Stephen King's new book in the New York Times and it's a wonderful review. She's such a great writer. I was like, 'Okay, well if she has a nice things to say, I'll get it.' And it's a collection of novellas and short stories and I'm not going to talk about all of them. I want to talk about just one and there's one called The Rat and I'm not going to do any spoilers here, but if you are a writer who has ever felt blocked in your writing, this story is a truly delightful, dark, dastardly view into the writer's head when they're trying to wrestle with their demons and why they can't get the words on the page.

Speaker 3 (36:26):

And I was working out in the woods while I was listening to it and there was a giant smile on my face. I was cackling. I'm like, this is so mean. And it's similar to when he channels the writer in Misery, when anytime he's ever talked about sort of what it's like for him to write and to go through that trap door into his basement. And all of that good stuff is in there. All of that stuff from On Writing that we love so much about his reading, about his process that's all in there, channeled through this writer in this story called The Rat. And it's delightful. It really truly is. It would be worth getting the book if you can afford to do it. It would be worth getting the book just to listen to this story really quick. I mean, I've also been comfort listening and I was scrolling through my Audible books that I've been listening to and they've all been books about sort of overcoming hardship. I realized I relistened to Jenny Finney Boylan's She's Not There. And I relistened to Diana Niad's Find a Way, which is about swimming from Florida to Cuba.

KJ (37:40):

I think you're the only person who's still listening. Audio has just dropped cause nobody's in their cars, nobody is commuting.

Jess (39:02):

I'm glad we did this cause I actually feel refocused in a couple of different ways and I'm feel good about drawing a line through one of my goals and just saying nope. By the way, go check out the #AmWriting Facebook group if you want some interesting reading about how other writers are handling this time, because that's what really most of the conversation is about right now. Like, how do you handle stuff? Are people still pitching here? What do you think about this? It's a really reassuring and supportive place to be, but until next time, everyone keep your button, the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Minisode: Don't Make the Same Mistakes Twice May 11, 2020

Check out this Minisode where Jess discusses the mistakes she made writing her first book, and her new tricks to avoid making them again.

Usually, Minisodes and Top Fives go out weekly to our supporters. But once in a while, we send one out to everyone—like this one.

If you’d like more Minisodes (coming soon: Jess on Pitching Podcast Producers), or Top Fives like the Top Five Things to Know About Writing Under a Pseudonym or Top Five Ways to Start a Revision, become a #AmWriting supporter with just one click. And, uh, your credit card. Because while the podcast is free for you all (and we love doing it) it’s not free to create, and we truly appreciate the help from everyone who can chip in to help us make it, and make it better.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 210 #DontOverthinkIt May 08, 2020

Our guest today is Anne Bogel, most recently the author of Don’t Overthink It, which came out on March 3, 2020. Followers of this podcast who’ve taken my advice may have checked out her podcast, What Should I Read Next, where she talks books, reading and recommendations with guests—because I’m a huge fan. Anne is also the author of I’d Rather Be Reading and Reading People: How Seeing the World Through the Lens of Personality Changes Everything, the host of a second podcast, One Great Book and the blogger behind the Modern Mrs. Darcy.com.

We talk about genres, owning your expertise, finding your voice and launching a book in a global pandemic. Some favorite advice goes straight to the title of Anne’s latest book: don’t overthink it. Sometimes, the right idea for a book is the one that’s always with you, that you’re interested in, that feels easy and obvious to you because it is—but isn’t such a cakewalk for everyone else.

#AmReading

Anne: Musical Chairs by Amy Poeppel (available July 21st, 2020)

The Switch by Beth O’Leary, who also authored The FlatShare

KJ: The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet by Becky Chambers

Jess: Wild Horses of the Summer Sun by Tory Bilski

The Boy from the Woods by Harlan Cobin

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 209 #StartYourWriterThing May 01, 2020

This week, it’s Jess and I (KJ) talking to Olivia and Meghan from the Marginally podcast, which we love for its frank conversations about challenges and setbacks and day jobs and the struggle to keep your butt in the chair (sound familiar?).

We talked about finding your writing people, the joys of keeping that day job, and the things that grow from grabbing a friend and starting the thing you wish someone else would start.

#AmWriting

Meghan: Followers by Megan Angelo

The Glass Hotel by Emily St John Mandel

Olivia: Emma by Jane Austen (and all the movies)

Independence Square by A.D. Miller

Jess: Wow, No Thank you by Samantha Irby

KJ: Love Lettering by Kate Clayborn

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 208 How to Blend a #CozyThriller Apr 24, 2020

Do mystery and thriller writers ever “pants” their stories? What’s it like to give a dark protagonist some elements of your own history? How much fun is it to fill a book with references to all of your favorite books ever?

We cover those things and more with author Peter Swanson, whose new book, Eight Perfect Murders, is a hybrid of psychological thriller and who-dunnit that all three of us loved. Also on the docket: we name our top three most terrifying children’s picture books.

FIND OUT MORE ABOUT OUR GUEST:

https://www.peter-swanson.com

#AmReading

KJ: Bringing Down the Duke by Evie Dunmore

Storyworthy, Matthew Dicks

Peter: My Dark Vanessa by Kate Elizabeth Russell

Whether you consider yourself a plotter or a pantser, we know you consider yourself a writer. You write. Enough said. If you’ve plotted or pantsed your way all the way through any narrative, you know what a tough job that is—and you might be able to help somebody else do it, too. In addition to matching writers with book coaches who help you keep your butt in the chair, our sponsor, Author Accelerator, offers book coach training and certification. If that sounds like it might be the perfect gig for you, head to authoraccelerator.com to learn more.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 207 #ProfessionallyMarried—for life Apr 17, 2020

Hey #AmWriting Listeners. It’s April 13, 2020, and this episode, like the last, is a throwback to a simpler time, when we left our homes without masks and took baristas and lattes and a whole lot of other things for granted. So it may feel jarring that we’re not discussing the current situation, but at the time there was little to discuss—and we wouldn’t have, anyway, because our guests, Greer Hendricks and Sarah Pekkanen, had so much fantastic advice to share about co-writing, writing suspense and just writing in general. They were a blast to talk to, and we hope they’re hard at work on a new thriller via Google docs.

If you’re hard at work on a project—or would like to be—our sponsor, Author Accelerator, has some free resources for this tough time, including a free ebook—The brilliantly titled Writer’s Guide to Agony and Defeat, writing resources for families and an upcoming webinar with creativity coach Jennifer Louden that’s just what every writer needs: Why Bother? Why write this book, and why now? I’m already signed up for that one. Find more at authoraccelerator.com/spring2020writingresources.

Greer Hendricks and Sarah Pekkanen are the co-authors of New York Times bestsellers The Wife Between Us, and An Anonymous Girl. Their latest book is YOU ARE NOT ALONE, on-sale March 3. We're recording just before its release, and it's getting a TON of buzz. I loved a Bookstagram review that called it "intrusive, suffocating and creepy. In a good way."

Here's the background on these two: Sarah is a former journalist and the author of 8 novels--with Greer as her editor. They decided to collaborate, and the rest is history--that we will be digging into in depth on the podcast.

You’re going to be jealous. But in a good way.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

A video of how Greer and Sarah collaborate.

Before I Go to Sleep, S.J. Watson

Gone Girl, Gillian Flynn

Liane Moriarty

Some of our favorite co-written things:

Nick & Norah’s Infinite Playlist by Rachel Cohn & David Levithan (They each took a character)

The Nanny Diaries by Emma McLaughlin and Nicola Kraus (They passed it back and forth)

KJ's: The Knockoff and Fitness Junkie, by Lucy Sykes and Jo Piazza (They pass it back and forth, but Jo’s the plotter and Lucy provides the juicy stuff.)

FIND OUT MORE ABOUT OUR GUESTS:

http://www.sarahpekkanen.com/

http://www.greerhendricks.com/

#AmReading

Greer: Dear Edward, Ann Napolitano

Sarah: Good Morning Monster: A Therapist Shares Five Heroic Stories of Emotional Recovery, Catherine Gildiner

KJ: The Worst Best Man, Mia Sosa

Brooklynaire, Sarina Bowen

Sarina: What Happens Next, Colleen Clayton

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 206 #YouCanDoIt (even now) Apr 10, 2020

Hey campers, KJ here. In this week’s episode, we talk to the brilliant Jessica Abel, a creativity coach extraordinaire, about how to get past whatever’s stopping you and develop a sustainable creative life. In so many ways, it’s a timely episode, and it WILL inspire you to get in there and get some work done.

But it may also inspire you to wonder what planet we are living on, as we lightly discuss such exotic activities as driving children to school and going to work. Sorry. That was Planet February, also known as the good old days. We were prerecording for some planned travel that—well, you know the drill. As we press go on this episode, life has changed for all of us—but in every other way, this call to creative action is completely timely. So take a break from the news and revel in it. It’s also a great time to check out our sponsor, Author Accelerator, where you’ll find a free seven-day writing challenge that can help you narrow in on the project you want to write—and let me just say I love that thing. I do it over and over again whenever I lose focus or start a new project. You’ll find it at www.authoraccelerator.com/amwriting.

Here’s something else that might help: Jessica Abel’s What’s Stopping You Worksheet. And be sure to follow her in all the places: Instagram, Twitter and Facebook.

She has more resources on her website as well.

No transcript this week. It’s all just too much. But here’s what we’ve been reading:

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jessica: Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones, James Clear

The Stone Sky, the last book in NK Jemisin’s Broken Earth series

Jess: As Needed for Pain: A Memoir of Addiction, Dan Peres

Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams, Matthew Walker & Steve West

KJ: What Happens in Scotland, Jennifer McQuiston

Shout Out to the Get Booked podcast

Thanks to everyone who supports the podcast financially. To join that team, click the button below:

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 205 How to Create #MarketingMojo Apr 03, 2020

Hey writers—super-practical episode this week! Call it part two of the Sarina coaches KJ through her book launch series. This week, it’s the #MarketingMojo page—things you’ll need as you market your book no matter what the book is or when it launches. This is the road to creating things like back-of-the-book or flap copy, ad copy, social media post copy and more, for fiction and non-fiction both.

We go in deep in the podcast, but here’s a quick primer, starting with the easiest and building up to the biggest challenges. Sarina suggests creating a Google doc with the following:

* Praise for the book/General praise for you and your work. Why? People buy things because of the emotions they’re expecting to feel. The praise you get from others—or the praise you’re hoping for, which is another way to approach this—is a shortcut to what emotions people have when reading your work.

* Short quotes from the actual book that say something in a few words that’s really indicative of the theme. Note—they can be shortened, condensed, or made more pithy as needed. You’re allowed to misquote yourself.

* A list of the conflicts, curiosities, tropes or other standout traits of the book. Cliffhangers? Puzzles? Thought-provoking questions? Identical twins, billionaires? Small towns and second chances? These are things that get people to pick up a book. List all you’ve got.

* From there, you’re on your way to creating your taglines and cover copy. We give examples in the episode—or just flip over any book in your genre and take a look.

#AmReading

Sarina: The Weight of Ink, Rachel Kaddish

KJ: Gaudy Night, Dorothy Sayers

Jess: The Biggest Bluff, Maria Kornikova

No transcript this week, because of … things. All the things. Too many things. But the podcast is there and waiting! Enjoy, and stay safe.

PS: It’s a great time to check out our sponsor, Author Accelerator, where you can launch a career as a book coach or get paired with the right coach to get your project moving.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 204 #HowtoGetPastWritersBlock(slowly) Mar 27, 2020

Feeling a wee bit stuck? Struggling to get anything on the page? Well, we all are—and not only does this week’s guest know from writer’s block (her last book came out in 2004), but she gave a raging case of it to her protagonist in her new novel, which allowed her—and us—to really dig in deep into what happens when the words don’t come.

Join KJ and Sarina as we talk to Laura Zigman, author of Separation Anxiety (a perfect book for this moment, all about how we’re all, every single last one of us no matter how weird or obnoxious or even put-together-seeming, just doing the best we can with what we’ve got) about writing funny, the edge between humor and empathy, and how life can get in the way of publishing even when it seems like you’re on the right track.

#AmReading

Jess:

The Splendid and the Vile: A Saga of Churchill, Family, and Defiance During the Blitz, Eric Larson

Good Boy: My Life in Seven Dogs, Jennifer Finney Boylan

Podcast: The Long Form

Laura:

Weather, Jenny Offill

Dept. of Speculation, Jenny Offill

KJ:

Separation Anxiety: A Novel, Laura Zigman

Podcast: Beach Too Sandy, Water Too Wet

So, we know it’s rough out there. It’s rough in here, too, but I guess, in a way I’ve personally never experienced before, we really are all in this together. And we’ll come through it together whether we like it or not. As I say in the intro, we recorded this just as the Covid19 shutdown wave was about to crash over us all, and we’ve got a few other episodes we recorded in anticipation of cancelled travel that just take us right back to the olden days—those are coming in weeks ahead, along with more timely episodes.

Thanks for listening and for sticking with us. We feel supported by every one of you. If you feel like kicking a little into the production kitty, (and getting #Minisodes and #WriterTopFives) click the button.

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator—training book coaches and matching coaches and writers.

Find out more: https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwriting.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ: Hello it’s KJ here and this is going to be a slightly longer than usual pre-roll announcement. Jess, Sarina, and I want you to know that Sarina and I recorded this episode, an interview with Laura Zigman, just as the covid crisis was just beginning to hit. We do mention it, but probably not in the way that we would now. And on that same note, this week our sponsor Author Accelerator is giving their time over to our effort to encourage you to support your local independent bookstore during this. Remember, Amazon is not going to have any trouble making money while we're all shut up in our houses. But your bookstore is - if you want them to still be there when this is all over and it will be over and we will want them - please do the less convenient thing and support them now. Here's how when you're looking for some new books (for example Laura Zigman’s Separation Anxiety) call your favorite independent bookstore and see if they're offering curbside pickup or home delivery, many of them are. Hopping in your car getting out there and just letting them drop that book in your window is entirely still possible for a lot of us. The mail is at least still coming, or check the website to see if they have an online store. If they don't consider purchasing your books via Bookshop.org. Bookshop is the new site designed to give away 75% of their profit margins to independent bookstores. We have a small presence on Bookshop, I'll try to include that in the show notes for this episode. Profits go to all independents, we’ll have a list of them there. If you listen to audiobooks, try LibroFM. That’s Libro.FM - when you start a membership with the code shopbookstoresnow you get two audiobooks for the price of one and 100% of your payment will go back to the independent bookstore of your choice. Everyone that has an internet connection should be following our favorite bookstores and sharing them all over the place, even if they don't have a social media presence you can talk about them and share how their store is personally important to you. Help your local stores tell their story. Do take a minute to subscribe to Author Accelerator’s weekly emails, a number of their online courses are free to subscribers during this crisis. It's a hard time to keep writing (and more on that in a later episode), but this could help. Is it recording?

Jess: Now it’s recording.

KJ: Yay. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess: Alright, let's start over.

KJ: Awkward pause, I'm going to rustle some papers.

Jess: Okay.

KJ: Now one, two, three. Hey, I’m KJ Dell’Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things - long things, short things, emails, proposals. In short, as I say every week this is the podcast about getting your work done.

Jess: I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and the upcoming Addiction Inoculation, coming out in 2021, and you can find my work at The Atlantic, The New York Times, and The Washington Post.

KJ: I am KJ Dell’Antonia, the author of The Chicken Sisters, which is coming out this summer. well as How To Be a Happier Parent, out now in paperback and coming out in hardback this summer. You can also find my work at the New York Times, and all the things. I’m the same person I am every week. We have a guest today I'm so excited about. We have Laura Zigman she is the author of (as you probably know) the new, and current, and very timely (in a weird way, but we'll get into that shortly) book Separation Anxiety, as well as Animal Husbandry which was made into the movie Someone Like You starring Hugh Jackman and Ashley Judd, Dating Big Bird, Piece of Work, and Her. E2 is a contributor the New York Times, as well as the Washington Post other places. She produced a popular online series of animated videos called Annoying Conversations I know that she pulled some annoying conversations into her own writing. We're so excited to have you here.

Laura: I’m thrilled to be here.

KJ: So, Separation Anxiety is your first book in how many years?

Laura: 14 years has passed since my last novel was published in 2006. It was a completely different world.

KJ: Yes, and the amazing thing about that, or one interesting thing is that you gave your protagonist a similar case of writer's block, which unlike you she did not triumphantly overcome before the book was written, because that wouldn't make for a very good book. It’s wonderful that she has that, it works so well, but as a writer myself I feel like I would hesitate to put something autobiographical into my person. I would feel like it was wrong somehow, but it was so great that you did it. Talk about the choice to do it.

Laura: You know I've always written what I call semi-autobiographical, which really starts from a place I'm always at. So my first novel was based on my experience of being a single woman living in New York and working. All of my other books sort of followed the starting point where I was, and this was no exception. I couldn't really imagine writing from another place. My experience when I started writing this novel in 2015 was just a point where it felt like the aperture on so many parts of my life had really darkened and shut down. And so that's where I was, I completely had writer's block and had had writer's block for quite a while. And I just had to start there and so I gave that to my character as well.

KJ: Well it really works because it becomes a way to approach about life, but before we even get into that I would love to talk about the writer's block itself. Sorry, but we have listeners who are right there in that position whether it's for some of the same reasons like there’s just so much going on in your life or whether it's because the words just aren't coming. Back in 2006, when did you know this was big?

Laura: Well, you know what happened was my fourth novel was published in 2006 and very quickly it tanked. Let's be frank, it just didn't do very well. We've all been there. I have often forgotten this little piece of the story in my head because I usually take responsibility for everything that happens to me, my own choices whether I choose to stop writing or wasn't able to overcome a lack of confidence. I forgot that at the time the book came out my agent (when it was clear the book wasn't doing very well) called me at home and said maybe I should take a break from writing fiction for a while. At the time it really crystallized my own lack of confidence so I didn't question the fact that my agent was telling me this and it would have been nice if she would have given me a different message and so I take responsibility for internalizing the message, but it really had an effect on me. It really was like somebody in a position who could have encouraged me was saying why don't you take a break because this isn’t working for you? That very quickly pushed all of my shame buttons, you know I was already embarrassed that the book didn't do very well, it just really shut me down. And then everything else started to happen - I was diagnosed with breast cancer, my parents got sick, a lot of stuff happened in my personal life which just cemented my pre-existing condition of writer’s block. And that lasted a really long time, even though there were things I did along the way that were kind of baby steps. But for the most part, in terms of writing fiction, writing a new novel, I totally shut down.

KJ: Yeah, I mean that is exactly what you don't want your agent to say to you. First of all, you don't want your agent to say that and second of all, who says that?

Laura: Right, it was unfortunate.

KJ: You know, perhaps with the best intentions. I don't know, it’s hard to grant that one. Wow. So, rule number one - no shooting down people’s life work, and saying maybe you should do something else for a while. Now that we've established that, moving on. You may not have been specifically writing a book or working on fiction not shut down creatively. So tell us some of the things you found you could do. And let's just owned that you're time was sucked up by having breast cancer and having your parents as well. This was like all day, every day for a long time.

Laura: Right, so it was like “sandwich generation” for many years. What happened was, one of the first things I did was sort of accidentally pivoted to ghostwriting. In 2007 or 2008, I was able to start ghostwriting. And that was something kind of lucky I felt that I had found. I had blogged about a television show I had started watching while I was recuperating from my surgery and then I was contacted by the show's producer and I ended up doing a book for a television matchmaker, which led to a few other projects. That led to some really interesting memoirs that I wrote for people like Wendy Davis and Eddie Azard, who is a British actor and comedian. And those were great projects and that was a great thing to do in terms of earning a living in writing, which was helpful to not have to write my own stuff. It was a relief not to have to come up with ideas for plot or characters, I was just able to use my skills almost like a job.

KJ: It's almost as if by using someone else's words you could kind of guarantee that when you sat down there was work.

Laura: Exactly. It lowered the pressure.

KJ: Whereas if you are relying on yourself and you're feeling blocked, you might sit down and nothing may come out. That must have been terrifying.

Laura:Exactly. I was doing that over the years and I think it was 2011 I discovered this platform on the internet called extra-normal. And you could write these little scripts and have these animated characters speak your words. And so I discovered it and thought Oh my God this is the best thing ever, because I would sit down in the morning and just whip out two or three minute scripts that were based on something annoying that happened the day before - either a conversation with my son or couples my husband and I were socializing with, whatever it was there were lots of annoying conversations. And so I would sit down in the morning, whip out a script, and have no writer's block because it wasn't like I was writing a novel.I just sat down, wrote it, and it would take a few minutes to generate the video, and then I would post it on social media. People really loved them. I think I would have still done them if the platform hadn’t shut down back in 2013. But I made 75 of them and I really loved doing them. And I loved that it made writing feel fun again. And then of course, I felt like a failure because I couldn't monetize them. I thought, it's only a matter of time before I have a show with these, but nothing happened. A lot of us feel that if we can't monetize something in some way then we've failed. Or I did, anyway. Then a few years later I tried again and wrote a script from scratch, like a film script, and my agent at the time really loved it and couldn't sell it, and again I felt like a failure. And it wasn't until 2015 that I finally had a break in my writer's block and decided I was going to try to write a novel again. So I went back to that script that was about a couple who couldn’t afford a divorce and had all the same issues that the novel dealt with, but I ok went back to that script, took just a little piece of it and used it to sort of seed the novel. And I went back to some of those old little videos and found little things in there that I used. So in retrospect, nothing that I did was wasted. In fact, they were really useful when I started again. But in the moment I still felt frustrated that I wasn't able to get the flame to catch.

KJ: I was waiting to see if Jess might want to weigh in so I wasn't dominating the conversation.

Jess: No I'm just listening. I find it fascinating. I always love the idea of you know when I get stuck sometimes and recently I've been stuck on sort of how to move forward with this new thing, so I really have just been going back through David Sedaris's book and my old notes. And so that idea of being able to go back to the script and say well I really like this story why it doesn't necessarily have to exist in this format and finding new inspiration in something you've already put out there. Especially when it's something you've already put out there that didn't come forward in the way you wanted it to. KJ and I talk about this all the time, we both have things in the drawer that didn't see the light of day - some of those I was able to use for articles in magazines. And I love the idea of recycling and repurposing things you love in a new format. I think that's a great way to jump-start yourself out of writer's block.

Laura: It was great because I realized I had the script itself and it was sort of a road map, but I had the characters and a few scenes to start with. It was just a great way and if I hadn't done it a few years later I think it would have been so much harder for me to start. Not impossible, but it was such a gift to start with. And that made all the difference.

Jess: Actually, can I go back? Since I've never had the writer's block (and I guess it can be described differently for lots of different writers), but for you does that mean literally you sitting there and not having any words to put down on the page? For some people I know it manifests anxiety and panic attacks, authors have described it in lots of different ways. I'm really just curious on a nitty-gritty level how it came about in your life and what it felt like and looked like.

Laura: That's a really good question. I think for me it felt like just a total shutdown after that fourth novel. I have had a lot of success - I use that term loosely as we all define success and failure in relative terms. Always really happy with my career and so when the fourth book came it just felt like going very well. There's a certain sense of ambient shame like everyone knows if your book didn't do well, you know and you get filled with this sort of shame. I think it was a lot of that shame and it was also a sense of even if I wrote another book would I be able to sell it and that mushroomed into a complete lack of confidence. And it was interesting because years later around 2015 when I started to be friendly with a group of writers in Harvard Square someone told me about the quotation that Norman Mailer had said about writer's block, which he defined it as a failure of confidence. And something about that when I heard it I realized it really didn't have anything to do with the fact that writers are writing, whether they're good or not, whether they're commercial or not, whether they're literary, they just keep writing. They have confidence. And once I saw it in terms of that and not about my skills, it was about my sense of myself. Then I was somehow able to say I'm going to try again. There was something about taking out the personal and making it more about my lack of confidence. Because I saw all of these other people writing and I thought you know I can write as well as they can. You know less good than some, but maybe better than others - it's all about confidence. Which seems so simple, but I don't know.

Jess: I think reading other people’s crappy writing can sometimes be a good jumpstart, too.

KJ: So what else did you think shifted in your life to allow - I just want to point out that you had writer's block, you didn’t stop writing . You just stopped writing that. You had fiction block. You had novel block. You had voice block. You didn't have word block. But what moment freed you up again sort of loosely in your life that allowed you to be able to sit down and actually say okay I'm starting again? Were you able to do it that way or did you have to trick yourself into it?

Laura: I still had to trick myself. What happened was I was working for a startup in Boston, a wellness app similar to the one described in the book. And I was there for about a year and then I left. It was then that I decided okay the universe has given me some time and maybe now is a really good time to start. I was able to make a little start because I rented a shrink's office by the hour in Harvard Square. I wanted some space and I was ghostwriting a lot and I thought if I could just have a dedicated day that I decide I'm not going to do ghostwriting today - so I went on Craigslist and found an office to rent by the hour, which I did on Mondays. So I would show up, sit in the chair, look at the art on the wall, and some days I would write, and some days I would play Solitaire on my phone. But by the end of a few months I had a #amwriting on Instagram and had gotten to a few pages and I feel like that was the way I really got started.

KJ: Did you work on it in between the Mondays? Or was it just like only when you were there?

Laura: I really just did at the office at first. After I gave the office up I felt like I had made enough progress in those three or four months, having those 50 pages I felt like I had something. I started something. Then I started to take little trips with a writer friend of mine and we would go away for a few days to work. And I was really able to start to feel like I was onto something.

KJ: I love that pieces of the book came and you were able to pull pieces that had been around awhile. Because one of the amazing things about Separation Anxiety is just how funny every detail is. You know, you don't miss an opportunity to drop in some humor. When you talk about the depth of the material but you were working with, I can feel that. So when you sat down to write how much of the funny comes out of you or how much do you put in later? It's a thoughtful and empathetic book, yet also very funny. So it's not like it is just funny - it manages to be funny as well as all the other things.

Laura: You know, that’s a really good question, too. Because I know when I sat down to start it I had no interest in writing a really funny novel. And I didn't feel funny at the time. I started writing it before the political situation had changed. But when I really started to really get going on it it took a while. And so by 2017 is when I really started to feel like I was making really good progress. And by that point the world didn’t really feel funny, it felt frightening. And I wanted to be true to that, but I didn’t want to overwhelm the reader with how the world and my world had changed. In the decade that I had stopped writing I had lost my parents and several close friends. And middle-age just felt different. And I also didn't want to write a completely grim book because I don't think that’s necessarily what people want to read either. There had to be space for the light to come in, a kind of feeling of hope. So I was really conscious of just trying to be true to all the parts. I wanted the sad parts to be sad and the funny parts to be really funny. Because they often just really coexist. Maybe at the time that I was going through the most difficult periods of time there may not have been humor in the moment, but looking back it was always really side by side. I remember in some of the saddest times getting an email from my son's school that inspired me to include these people puppets. I just ended up using them in the plot; in reality but they seemed like a potentially funny plot device.

KJ: They work with the overarching plot because as someone who writes fiction I've had the problem of a plot device that doesn't match the rest of the book, but this one matched.

Laura: And back to your question, in the old days I think I would have just used them as a sight gag and let it go, but this time I understood things differently. I was like each character has to serve a purpose. A bigger purpose here - and what is the purpose? For my message in this book it was like everybody is suffering and struggling. And even when we don't know it, everyone has a story and everyone is really doing the best they can to get through their life and I found that that was the important message I was trying to communicate in this book. Because when I had so many years of struggle, whether it was with my sick parents, or with friends, or my career so many people helped me. I was so grateful for that level of humanity that I really wanted the book to encompass that.

KJ: It’s an amazing achievement - there's not a word wasted, there's not a character wasted.

Laura: I'm glad you feel like it worked.

KJ: It definitely works. The last thing I want to touch on with this writer's block and you not having another novel coming out again is financially how did you handle it? Like how did that affect your writing?

Laura: It's a really hard thing. Because on the one hand when you are financially strapped you have the impetus to work because you have to, to hustle every year. So I did that with the ghostwriting, but I was also very lucky in that I had earned a fair amount with my first book and I had been careful with that. And so we were living off that for a while. Every year with the ghostwriting I managed to get a gig that was just enough to get us through. It’s exhausting and that is one of the things taking away from the more creative aspects. We all khow that to write a novel you need to be firing on all cylinders of your brain for that. We all know what that's like. You just have to have that kind of mental energy; so much of it is diverted into stress thinking. It is exhausting and is a really fine line. Part of it helps you churn out words because you have to and the other part depletes you - every year I was just walking that line.

Jess: And of course what fills us back up is the reading. So can we talk about what we’ve been reading? I'm excited to talk about mine.

Laura: I am behind in my reading, but I'm very excited to read KJ’s book The Chicken Sisters. I also have right in front of me Weather by Jenny Offill. Because I love her Department of Speculation I'm so excited to read Weather.

KJ: I have heard that if you liked Department of Speculation then Weather is just the right amount of goodness that she offered up the first time. I haven't read it either yet. I just finished Separation Anxiety and you have been listening to me rave about it and the characters just stuck in my head. As it turns out I could totally handle, it called me and I put down books without hesitation. it was a really fun read. I went to my local bookstore and bought a bunch of things.

Laura: Some of them, like Politics and Prose in DC are doing free shipping through the end of March.

Jess: Eric Larson’s new book I had been really excited to read for a while. It’s called the Splendid and the Vile. I love Eric Larson and love how he uses historical research and weaves it into this just compelling tale and I’m getting drawn into the world of Churchill and it’s really been delightful, especially since this is an area I’m not particularly expert in. I haven’t read a ton on it. So I’m really loving it, I’m a fan of Eric Larson. And on the flip side of that, I’m reading a book I’m really enjoying, it will be out in May I think. Good Boy: My life in 7 dogs by Jenny Finney Boylan. I have to tell you that there’s a dog on the cover and dogs in the title, but it is not a dog book. It’s hard to describe, but it’s very much about trying to figure out who she is and in conjunction with her dogs. I don’t think you need to be a dog person to love this, I think you need to be a Jenny Finney Boylan fan to love this book. I highly recommend pre-ordering it. And lots of podcasts, I was on the road a lot, but a lot of my speaking gigs have been cancelled and I’ve found myself unexpectedly at home so I’ve been on a podcast deep dive. I have to put a plug in for the Long Form podcast, if you haven’t been listening you have to. A good starting place is episode 378 with Ashley Sea Ford where she gets nitty gritty on money and she talks about figuring out what you’re worth.

KJ: If anyone wants a super dopey podcast, guaranteed not to stress you out, I have been listening to Beach to Sandy, Water to Wet, Dramatic Reading of One Star Reviews.

Jess: This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 203 #HowtoWorkAnyway Mar 20, 2020

Well, fellow writers, when we recorded this we were just at the beginning of it all. It’s safe to say things have already changed—all of us have families at home, we’re all shut down, with noisy houses full of people trying in various ways to work online.

We went from “trying to work anyway” through “I give up for a few days” and now we’re back to “trying to work anyway.” So this advice still applies—we’re setting small goals, giving ourselves schedules as best we can, and trying to strike that balance between cutting ourselves necessary slack and still trying to be who we want to be as writers.

It’s true that this keeps happening:

And when it does, we’re trying to find things we CAN do with absolutely zero attention span. Like share our friends’ books on Instagram. Or record a podcast about how crazy we feel. Which we will keep doing. So, same time, next week?

Now’s actually a good time to check out our sponsor, Author Accelerator—get matched with a book coach, or send some of your forced isolation time becoming one! Here is a list of great writing-related resources that are all available for FREE. Those marked with F are great for fiction, M for memoir, and NF for nonfiction. Feel free to share them around!

* Author Accelerator's Writing Challenge – This mini course introduces you to the first six steps of our Blueprint for a Book process to help kickstart your next book or figure out what might be missing from your draft. F M NF

* The Inside Outline course – We're offering our renowned course on how to use an Inside Outline to transform your story for FREE until the end of March. Take your book to the next level and propel your draft forward. Use the coupon code SPRING2020 at checkout. F M

* The Outcome Outline course – The Inside Outline equivalent for nonfiction writers is the newest tool in our arsenal – and it can be yours for FREE. Use the coupon code SPRING2020 at checkout between now and April 1. NF

* Writing fun for families – Certified book coach Jen Braaksma put together some writing activities that you can download and use for yourself or with your kids.

And for the aspiring book coach:

* Author Accelerator's The Basics of Book Coaching – This mini course introduces you to the world of book coaching, where it came from, who makes a good coach, and how you can get started, even if you've never edited before. If you've been thinking about dipping your toe in the water, why not now?

We create transcripts of the podcast every week with the help of an AI. That means there are always mistakes. We usually try to clean them up, but I won’t lie. This one is particularly bad.

Hey, fellow potential carriers. Welcome to our #Howtoworkanyway episode.

Will it be the first of many, or outdated and boring in no time at all?

We can only hope for the latter and probably do a lot of sighing, but hey, as long as we're all going uber virtual, let me suggest spending some of your screen time at authoraccelerator.com Get matched with a book coach, or look into becoming a book coach. The side gig many of us are perfect for, complete with social distancing. If you've got some unexpected downtime maybe now is a good time to set yourself up to do something new.

That recording now it's recording. Yeah, in a... It is the part where I stare blank and so I remember what I supposed to be doing. Alright, let's start out award has...

I'm gonna wrestle some papers. Okay, now one to it is a one-to-one OneNote. I'm delete.

And this is a hanging Ting-

A-team writing is the podcast about writing, all the things under all the circumstances, fiction, non-fiction, proposals, pitches emails. This is in short as I say a very weak the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done, and I'm justly I am the author of The Gift of Failure in the forthcoming addiction inoculation. That'll be out in 2021. and yeah, I write at various places including The New York Times, The oleic and The Washington Post and I'm seeing about the author of 30 old romance novels and my newest one is going to be called sure shot and it comes out in May, is an even number. And you gonna start saying 30, I don't know, or even a... Do you know... What do you know how many Suresh makes by the way, in?

Okay, so I think it's amazing. It's an amazing number.

Yes, we love it. Well, I am Jess Lahey.

Yes, I come on. You guys know who I am, but that you... At the author of "How to Be a happier parent and of the novel, the chicken sisters coming out in June of 2020 and super excited about that one. I also write for a number of other publications occasionally including the New York Times, and we are recording this on a... Oh, I, 5th and the Ides of March indeed 20020, and the world has gone crazy. And so the title of this is so that you guys know because you all are listening is hashtag how to write.

Anyway, I quick got a... At first, at first I really resisted this topic because I didn't think that I was a very good advertisement for it, it just took me twice as long to do the final edits on a project because that's what happens when you refresh the New York Times, home page all day long.

Yeah, and as we've been talking all week anxiety was a problem, but then, while I sort of settled down and got to this place of...

Okay, so this year is not going to go the way that I thought. And as we discussed this in March, we haven't been personally affected by everything that's happening yet, but still it requires a big attitude adjustment, and as we all know, writing through an attitude adjustment is pretty tricky.

Actually, I think Jess and I would both differ with the... Haven't been personally effective. Yeah, for me, it's taken me. I'm finally getting to a good place today where I was in a holding pattern until I knew whether or not Is my speaking gigs. Were gonna be cancelled and for me I couldn't plan ahead until that happened, and people were taking really wanted to wait till the last minute to make those announcements. So for me, and because a lot of my travel is a domino effect in then I was scrambling to plan the travel from somewhere else instead of where I was supposed to be, but it's actually been a relief in a way in a... Now everything is cancelled for the most part, because I'm not having to constantly be playing catch up with. Okay, well, so what next? So this week has been really emotionally challenging for me, not only because of the financial problems I make. A large percent of the majority of my income was coming this month, so that's been an adjustment. But for me being able to get myself in the headspace of, of... Okay, well now is gonna be for at home.

That really was a big adjustment, right? And when I said we weren't affected I meant we weren't coughing.

Right, right, exactly. None of us is coughing but I think we should own here because they are universal and pretty gender neutral. The family challenges that we are dealing with Jess has been struggling to get a family member out of Europe, the struggling, but we are fortunate that we can do these things. I've got a house full of notes, my kids, but extra kids which I recognize is probably not gonna happen for very much longer, because everything major, major sporting events in their lives were cancelled this weekend. And also I, I don't know, I'm coping with parents that are not worried enough about this that are too far away for me to get to so I'm not very happy about that, but yeah, and it's stressful. Is this super, super stressful?

So, not null. Wanted to do this so that you guys could help me. But I will say after like RNA refreshing the news constantly. I did finally today, managed to sort get my head background play. It's also the little voices in the my back of my head going. Or am I writing a book about the olden times?

That's an interesting opening is it gonna be like, "Is it gonna be super-dated because nobody does anything this way I use, I don't think so. We're gonna get back to normal we are, we are we at a cantus people shake hands in your novel, they don't touch feet. I'm pretty sure they do. Shake is what's really interesting. That was a total game in my novel. People go to a football game. What's also really interesting from my perspective at my house full disclosure is that my husband is helping run the task force in Vermont that's doing incident. There's sort of this thing called Incident command. So, even when he's home, he's feeling these conference calls and his pager going off, constantly, and so my husband will not be able to stay home during this period. And so there's the added sort of thing, where I feel like, "Oh my gosh, I need to keep him as healthy as possible, and so I'm making sure we have healthy meals and making sure he gets enough sleep and the chaos that would be... That would especially once we get our other kid home the chaos that could happen in our house, can't really happen because we do have to keep someone on the straight and narrow, and healthy and going to work every day.

So that's been interesting too.

It's all... Yeah, interesting. These are the interesting side times for which a Chinese famously put in A, the I and I, because that's the best description for it. I love what you said the other day, Serena. Everything is different, nothing is different.

And that's kind of, unfortunately, where we are at least for the moment. So I, through this topic out on our Facebook page a hashtag am writing on Facebook and I'm getting calls for and requests and commentary on basically the real nitty-gritty of this.

Like, how are we doing this? If the kids get quarantined how are we moderating our news intake, how are we trying to maintain our focus? So, anybody got Serena? You sound like you kind of pulled it back together, do you have any good... Yeah, so... Or tips, launched something launches off. First of all, we're going to... And we never do this, just shut off the internet at our house for a few hours every day.

You heard you say that you and I thought "Oh we're gonna need to do that too.

Singapore's gonna be home, which they are sooner or later. I think I got an alert on my phone today, saying that I hit my internet usage had gone way up and I was like, Oh, that was a nice little alert to remind me that I need to keep the lid on that. So I love your idea, Serena.

Well, I would just like to remind us because this comes up from time to time that when you're writing a book, there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance that happens anyway. There's the world inside your book where you have to put your head and then there's the world of your family and everything else that's going on. And I'm constantly constantly struggling to maintain two realities at once. And now we've got a third one. It's like the life inside my house is actually not changed all that much yet, but... But the world is blowing up in various other ways. So now I feel like the burden just went out. 50% of all the things I have to keep track of and shutting off the internet for a few hours every day helps. It eliminates one of those vectors.

I love it, I think that'll be a relief that sort of exhalation, that happens when first you panic and you're like, Wait, where to go and then you go.

I-A...

Oh, that's, that's kind of nice, yeah, it will also stop what is continually happening, for me, which is that I get my head into the space where I need to be. And then someone bursts in shrinking the nail just suspended its season and then I take a deep breath and I get my head back where it needed to be, and then someone burst in shrieking card against not going back to school until April. 26, literally I just don't you feel like you're just walking through your life carrying a box with a little punching glove, you're like... No, those cartoon punching glove. And every time I turn someone just punches me.

And I think we all feel like that it's not and we're punching each other, it's not like I don't immediately grab my phone and text you guys the exact same thing. Somewhat date to me off, I forgot to pay at the grocery store yesterday because while I was paying one of my kids' opened up their phone and said, "Hey sections, I try to walk out. Oh yeah, it was like, "Oh no, I did not mean to do that I... Well, the economy is also gonna hit us a little bit. I feel so bad for anyone who's launching there once a year, once every two year or three year but a great now, yeah, because it's hard to... We have some people like that in the Facebook group. I-E and to get news it's hard to get attention versus stuff.

Yeah, and you also feel bad for asking for that attention too. There's the guilt factor. Nobody likes to run around shouting about their own book all the time, but it's even harder when people are sick.

Well, we're gonna meet, we need other things to talk about, right?

If you've got a non-fiction book on a different topic, we're we need that and we certainly need escapist fiction, so sure if you're in that position, and you've got that book go ahead, you tell it tell us about it thoughtfully acknowledging and we may both be. Well, you're in, you will be 'cause sure shots coming out any minute.

No, it's not your once a year thing, but I know well, so here's a thing. I just had to adjust my expectations and that was quite difficult 'cause I have real-time data about what distraction is doing to book sales. So we're recording this on a Sunday. Yesterday was a Saturday which is usually like the second best book selling day in the week for me and I was down 19%. week over week yesterday and the day before that was Friday, and I was down 22% week over week.

So those are real numbers that are going to pile up and affect my bottom line eventually, but I'm... As you mentioned, sort of insulated because I have more than one release a year and that short shot is part of a series and the people who are reading that series are gonna probably wake up and see it in so there's some, there's a little less selling I have to do and I, in the book selling curve for me, than for other people, so I feel the most pain for those whose curve is movable. Well, and can I clarify for those who are not as familiar with how Serena cells or books and how we sell ebook? So if I wanted to get the information that Serena has available at our fingertips, I really can't because my publisher holds on to that information and even if I wanted to go through book scan or something, that's not all the information and it's behind, but because series, you could you could not Tortola. It's not necessarily super it accurate, but it's there. But I just wanted to clarify that because Serena is she's got a three is she is the publisher, so she has up-to-date, minute-minute data on her own book sales, which is really interesting to have. And for someone, especially like Serena who loves data, it's a teething to be able to look at... Well, the... There's this other one in yet. Go ahead, in economics called an inferior good and friends. I don't like to refer to us as inferior if I can help it, but an inferior good is something that people buy when they can't buy more expensive things. So the classic example of an inferior good in economics is bus tickets poor people buy more bus tickets than rich people in general, but books could in a pandemic, behave like an inferior good where people buy more of them because they can't buy the more expensive thing they want which is like a trip to Italy.

Well, that would be nice. And I am hoping for that but we also have the problem of where the people are gonna hear about the books, right?

So I am the once-a-year release at best and I'm not out tooth so I'm super hopeful that by June 30th, for one of a couple of possible reasons I will still be able to get out there and do my book tour and people will be wanting to grab books for their beach bags and they'll be going to the beach, but we don't know it. And this is the moment when book sellers would be ordering my book and book sellers are in big trouble.

Independence, so that is definitely... I am not without I've got a stack of books that I've addressed to all the... And book stores in Kansas and a bunch of other ends. And I wrote the notes last week, and now I'm like, "Oh those are out of date now. The ease, not gonna send them. I guess I'll put a post-it on them or something, I don't know. Well, but they are like the world has changed dramatically.

I'm still feeling helpful, but definitely a little bit of worry, and I guess... But here's a small...

I'll probably do a little... Well, I do less launch related stuff.

No, that would be bad because I think this is still... I have reason to think it could still go the way that I would like it to go, and if it doesn't, the social media stuff I will still need. I'm trying to see if there's a silver lining in which I get more time to work on the other new book.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing that the entire...

I'm planning to Here's a silver lining with all sports cancelled. I'm doing a lot less driving. That is actually... That is definitively more time. And since my kids are older, once I get them in the habit of doing something useful then, then yeah, it is more time and hey, you won't have to pick anyone up from school, perhaps in a couple of weeks.

That's right, I just have to make sure they actually do their school work and deal with the fact that if there are three people trying to be in Zoom classrooms in my household, the US that I can record a podcast or going to be extremely slim and they'll all be running in, freaking, my Zoom class where we work because that person zoom as room is sucking up all the internet.

Yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be good to one being a fine as we in a line at work anyway, yeah, but speaking of podcast, actually, this is really interesting and this is about how to work anyway because I was supposed to be on two podcasts next week that are in-person podcast. They sort of really pride themselves on being in-person podcasts and I... And it's still up in the air, but those probably are not gonna happen. So I have to say, we are so ahead of the curve because we tend to... We tend to record online, so we've been social distancing. Since the beginning. So, since for... It was cool, so that exactly.

I have been wondering to myself whether as we record podcasts people are gonna want us to touch on this with the people that we're writing and listeners, I would love some input on this. I have a feeling that I'm gonna want my podcasts to be fairly virus-free. Yeah, but you also don't wanna sound like you were recording in some alternate reality which we were, and several upcoming podcast that you're gonna hear, and I'll probably say something at the top of the episode. I'm definitely gonna want my podcasts, to be non. I would prefer them not to be that punching right? I love that comes out of the box. So I think that's a good plan. The "Alans will strike there.

I think we'll see as it plays out, but I think we wanna be able to talk about how people are managing to get their work done and stick with that, but try not to harp too much on the bad, the bad value.

A year from now, and people are listening to the back list, they're like, "Oh yeah, then as the days... Yeah, that's a... Well, I got a say I'm very optimistic, I actually... Now that I'm making my mental shift away from... Honestly, I've talked about this on the podcast before. This was gonna be me on the road for the pretty much the entire month of April, and March in April, so now that I'm not once I know that I'm not gonna be... And PS, in the back of my mind, my kid, I still have one kid out of pocket, I need one more kid to come home before my brain can finally settle in to being able to work very well. But once that happens, I'm shifting to new book proposal, so that's been my plan to that was my plan A... But a lot faster now that's gonna happen a lot faster now I can move that up. And now that my edits are pretty much done for the substance abuse book, I can sort of mentally put that away for a little bit and make room for the new book. So in a way that's really exciting for me, I really... You know me, I love the deep dive into the research, and that's where I have to start with the book proposal, so that's where my brain is gonna be very much for the next couple of months, and my speaking stuff will get rescheduled. Maybe in the fall, we'll see, but for now I've gotta let that go and move on with what is rather than what I could have been. I have to let go with that regret in order to be present for the stuff that is on the table in front of me.

And what you're basically saying is that goals episode we recorded so recently, so right, but I... Or definitely revisiting those things. And there's this temptation to look at those goals for the year and think what was the point of this? But of course, there was a really good point to that. And even if we all end up ripping that page right in half, it doesn't mean it wasn't a useful exercise for establishing our priorities and what we hope to get done.

Absolutely, and that kind of attitude adjustment is what I'm trying to hang on to... I was just looking at my goals from March only, and I just added at the bottom, I get through March and April with sense of humor intact, because that soil... It's important that that is a very good goal.

Yeah, I am thinking an interesting side thought about this, is that nothing about my work life or work goals changes because of this. There's nothing that I was previously expected to, other than a few small travel things, there's nothing that I was previously expected, to do that. I am now not expected to do. There's nothing, there's nothing that I should let go or put off everything stays the same, it's just I am going to have to look at it and go. Okay, well my time is going to be different because there is both the mental coping with this and then the... Yeah, when I have three kids to homeschooling, all day even, no matter what the schools provide that's gonna be... That's gonna be on us to some extent. So yeah, it's a revisiting but you might have to revisit with the project you're working on, too. Like I write pretty fluffy. Books and people keep saying... But we need your fluffy books. But the truth is, I don't know if I can be all that optimistic. And I a first kiss seen this week, right?

I might have to pick up a different project, instead and shuffle some things around because I'm maybe not in the head space for the things that I thought I was going to be in the head space for.

I always like there was a tweet or a text that you sent us one time about the fact that it was really, really hard to write a sex in when your kids were home from school, and in the next... So I can imagine that's the head of space, you have to be. And sometimes to write your books is not having a lot of clamor and kids around the house is not conducive to that, but I think not sticking this into our work is gonna be the emotions are gonna creep in. So, maybe choosing things that emotionally are gonna resonate, but we don't need an entire six months, from now, we're not gonna need the entire world to be nothing but essays about your experience with it.

And nobody's gonna wanna take those... Let's just... Unless you have some... And I did have a particular experience and I did write an essay about it, but unless you have a particular expertise or something very particular going on the moment when anybody's gonna wanna hear about this has already expired, other than sort of in your own personal in your email if you have a weekly email or in your personal social media anyway, I think we have to sort of try not to let this take over what we're working on.

Definitely, that's a personal journals are for... We can write about how we're grappling with all our stuff and our own personal writings all we want, but that does not mean that we need to have published 3000 essays on how, in personally coping with the loss of income and kids being a net right, so says they just are gonna have to be about something else.

Yeah, it's a time, it's a time.

Some of the stuff that I'm hearing on our Facebook group is get up is stuff we've talked about before. It's the same thing, I guess, this is just like writing during the Nanaimo and trying to do it during Thanksgiving when you have your whole family home, get up early. Take advantage of the small verse for me today, I was like, okay, an hour I just want an hour and I admit to watching. The clock but I didn't take any internet-connected. Well, I have my laptop, but I turned out the Tintern it was just an hour just in our... Just gonna do it our... And if you pull yourself back and pull yourself back and pull yourself back to it for an hour, you are going to progress and three months from now, two months from now, six months from now, whatever we're gonna wanna have progressed.

Yeah, I was actually thinking today about how that works best for me and for me that means Writing deadlines that I self-imposed writing deadlines, and of course, I have very few, I have two book reviews, one that's due in two days, and one that's due in about a month, so I have those deadlines, but I think I'm gonna need to sit down and get back to my calendar and create some deadlines for myself around this book proposal so that I can feel like I'm staying on some sort of track rather than just floundering about and thinking. Oh, I have all this time to write because I'm actually home I need to have some structure, so self and post deadlines for me are my structure and sometimes that means and this is always a little risky for me but sometimes that means that I email my agent and I say look myself and post deadline to have this to you is X date and then I actually put it on my calendar, send X to my agent by this date and that helps keep me. And sometimes it's just telling you if I tell you A and Serena that I really wanna have this done by. Oh, could you ask me about this a week from Friday? That helps to... And I also observe the of this is a little bit like when summer descends upon one if when whatever if our kids are out of school and even for me with the disappearance of all the extra-curricular activities, what had been a fairly regimented schedule of every day there would be four or five very set things. So then I was slotting stuff in around it. That creates a structure for me, that I rely on more than I know.

So when that structure suddenly disappears, it is entirely possible for an entire day to waffle away into nothingness. Because I didn't have to get someone to school at 8, and therefore did not have to sit down immediately when I got home to... So I'm thinking about ways to create to rebuild that schedule for me and probably for the other people in my house, and I think Serena, year two hours without the internet, is gonna be good. I'm thinking about putting together some daily extra... Well, I exercise every day anyway, but if I put it on the schedule and sort of they get something I have to work around, I think that is gonna help me.

That's been tricky is a co-other interesting goals to set up my yoga studio that I like to go to with my IT every night with my husband and my kid. We've been going for the past couple weeks to get ourselves back into it and I'll get the whole family going to yoga again, which we love.

Yoga studios, closed. So it turns out there are some great online options, and so I'm just having to sort of insist that we keep that routine up except we do it here, instead of out there. And I think that's gonna help me with my sanity too, 'cause it would be real easy to let that fall well and it weirdly, weirdly, might be better to find an option where you're actually watching something life like as it. We must all gather here to do this thing that we want. I mean, I'm just a... That would be better for me.

So I'm trying to put things on my schedule that are at five, I'm doing this and at such and such, I'm doing that because that it, it gets my brain into that, working spine.

There are various ways to do that live thing too, and it's been... It's nice 'cause like you feel like... Because the people are there in real time, if you have Peloton YouTube, there's some online yoga people in some online exercise, people that have these sort of real-time classes and it really makes you feel like you're actually there and present with those people as opposed to... Yeah, it's a good thing, I... Well, there's a community there going on which we're all desperately going to mean. Probably I was in a book club in New York City. Let's see, I left it 11 years ago, I guess, and I just got a text yesterday from my friend Barbara who said Listen, or doing book club on Zoom now and look, it's like six of the same people from 20 years ago. Are you in... And then all that to see. I was co... You're a genius.

Okay, so that's a brilliant idea. Book clubs create virtual date with you and we have... You could have a resume writing club too. We could co-work and sit here with our laptops able to see each other and the various screens. That would be another way to do it. A co-working date or even a you know text somebody go and then text somebody stop every morning that would... Yeah, but that's really cool. I like that, I moved away from these women 10 and a half years ago, so I'm just so excited I have. I lost touch with them completely. So this will be one weird way that I get those friends back that I wasn't going to. Otherwise.

Everybody started selling in a... Yeah, there it is. That's my first entry.

Well, here's my... They're silver lining.

Hopefully we will have more time. Yeah, red.

I actually picked up with e-books yesterday just for that reason.

Oh, I have picked up so many books, and I'm actually meeting a friend to have coffee at the bookstore while keeping six feet apart? In washing our hands and doing all the things because we wanna support the book store. I'm pretty sure I'll come home with a few more books that tell me what to buy, but have you guys...

I guess this is kind of about like what are you buying the stock up because...

Well, I can start, because I bought books yesterday, I bought a book, so when I was little, I was positive, absolutely positive that I was gonna be... As "Cetacean biologist, I was gonna be a whale scientist and I was obsessed with Wales, and I haven't read anything about whales in a long time and so I bought a book by this guy Nick Pinson, I hope I spelled that I pronounce that right. He's actually the curator of mammal of marine mammals and fossils at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History, and he has a book called spying on whales, and it's about whales today and well fossils and all that kind of cool stuff. So I'm reading about whales I'm reading. I decided to listen yesterday when I was working in the woods, I was listening... Re-listening actually to Diana NI ads book, find a way about when she swam across the from "orest Cuba and it's an incredible, incredible story and I read it, I listen to it, first a long, long time ago.

So there's sort of a... I'm noting an escapist kind go other places, kind of thing, because if I'm gonna be in my house and in my yard, for the most part, I wanna be other places I wanna be underwater with whales, and I wanna be in Florida women to Cuba, that kind of thing. So, I'm definitely on an escapist jag at the moment, other places.

Well, speaking of the box with the punching glove in IT, I flipped over my phone, to look at the name of a Bo and I just got a text that was game cancelled a night, let me know what to do, I just stop. People just stole just a ton.

Okay, I'm still looking for the book name because I got sucked. So, I am a... Or know what you got. I'm about to buy a copy of the mirror and the light the new Hilary Mantel. Oh, I wanna hear what you have to say because I'm really excited about that too.

You know I'll probably read it first, because he has been checking her website every month for five years, but eventually, yeah, I can't wait. Okay, well, just that these are things that I have bought that I am Ying Amanda air awards, the jet setters. I did not just eyeing it I actually bought it and I'm super excited about that. And then we've got a couple of...

I've got a bunch of arts because I the... And then somebody just texting me again, stop in How can I look at my picture of books if you keep doing me in, I don't care what's canceled, but don't care.

Oh, I'm super excited about mother land by Lea... Frankie. I'm not... I think that comes out.

Let me make the picture a little bit bigger. Oh, that's not out 'til July, sorry people, I'll let you know how it goes, but there's a lot, there's a really lot of good stuff out there now, so I go to your book store by some of it, tell us what it is and if you like it, we'll have a writing Facebook page book group, and please, don't forget. So you can order directly from your local bookstore. In fact, I saw it was interesting, I saw there was someone on Twitter who owns a bookstore. Oh shoot, I can't remember where it was, but she was saying that they were actually hoping to set up delivery to people that they could say they could leave books in their mailbox are on their door step for books they had ordered from the bookstore, so that they could expand their sales beyond just okay if people aren't coming to our store will deliver to you, so check to see if that's an option.

Well, the guests that the guests Arena, and I interviewed a couple of days ago but which you listeners will be hearing next week probably, or possibly the week, after said that politics and pros and DC is doing free shipping, so some of the bigger ends may be able to do that. And I know my bookstore still north and Hanover, New "hansi and also Norwich books in norm. You can call them up and say, "I would like a copy of... Don't overthink it by an BOGO. That's another one that I actually... I'm gonna be looking for that at the book start today and such and such by so-and-so can I just pay you on the phone and you could put those in a bag, and when I pull up, roll down light wind, you can come drop them into my car. They will totally do that they will absolutely do that, and we gotta think these are our people, out there with the book stores, we wanna take care of them as best as we can while we're taking.

Can I just add also keep an eye out for what books are coming out. If you normally find out about new releases because you go to a bookstore keep an eye out for what's coming out week to week. I know, for example, not that she's gonna need much help but you...

Glennon Doyle's book, came out last week and she had a huge national tour planned to promote the book and get out there and do signings and stuff, and the entire tour has been canceled. So there are people who are putting books out and aren't able to go out and promote their own books. So keep an eye out for new releases, and buy those.

We will try to do some little new release of a... Yeah, in our spare time, let's try to do some new relates updates on the Facebook page. On my Instagram, I'm constantly doing new books. That's at DA. Serena, does too. She's always got... Especially if you love the romance genre, she's cut that all over her stories. She's at Sinai. We're in a... We're gonna try to be noisy about King. Keeping the reading going, keeping our link to that strong yeah, especially since I think that you normally... My kids excuse for not reading for pleasure at home is... But I was reading so much at school today. But if he's gonna be out of school, then I'm gonna make sure he is quiet reading time with the internet, off at my house. So we will be a point is like a night.

Alright, we good everybody, we're as good as we can be. Yeah, that's alright, everyone.

If people, if you would like to get an update in your email inbox every time we release a new episode you can sign up for that at am Writing Podcast, dot-com, it's gonna invite you at that point to support the podcast and while we would love your support, if you just click "No subscription at this time, you will be signed up for the free weekly emails and that that's fine. We love that, too. Please do it. There's usually something extra and the emails, depends on the week.

And if you do wanna support the podcast as I think just said recently, maybe use again some of that extra spare time that Hey, that just kinda has... Let's don't call it spare to create things to keep us all on track and to keep us working that we'll send out to hash again, writing sports sounds good, okay, I'm done talking about the right until next week. Everyone stay healthy, stay safe, to keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. A "dinaric by Andrew parlour intro music Apple titles unemployed Monday was written and played by Max con Andrew Knox were paid for their time in the creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 202 #WebsiteRevampHowto Mar 13, 2020

Hey listeners! It’s been a mad mad mad week here (all of you in the future, check the date), and I bet there too. Result: there are no shownotes for this episode. We’re talking about

revamping my website to get it in gear for my forthcoming second book. Here’s the image we mention—the before—and for the after (which is still in progress), head over to my site and see what you think. Any questions, shoot me an email (kjdellantonia@gmail.com or reply to this.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ (00:00):

Hey #AmWriting listeners, this is KJ and this is my seventh time attempting to record this pre-episode discussion of something really cool that's being authored by Author Accelerator, our sponsor. I think you all know that I loved working with Jennie Nash on revising my manuscript for The Chicken Sisters. Well, if you'd be interested in working in a small group with Jennie, she is offering a Rock Your Revision small intensive workshop for fiction writers ready to revise manuscripts this summer, July 16th - 19th of 2020 in Santa Barbara, California. If that interests you, if it sounds like something you'll be ready for, if it sounds like something that having it scheduled might make you get ready for (and I think that will work) head on over to author accelerator.com click on the retreats and summits link, and then scroll on down to Rock Your Revision to learn more. Is it recording now?

Jess (01:05):

Now it's recording.

KJ (01:06):

Yay.

Jess (01:06):

Go ahead.

KJ (01:08):

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess (01:12):

Alright, let's start over.

KJ (01:13):

Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now one, two, three. Hi, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #Am writing the podcast about writing all the things and getting them out into the world. And that's all I'm going to say about that this week.

Sarina (01:37):

Really? Well, I'm Sarina Bowen and I write long things, primarily genre fiction and I've written 30-odd romances and my newest one is called Sure Shot. If I ever finish it.

KJ (01:50):

I can't wait for it. Okay. I am KJ Dell'Antonia, the dithering other voice on the other end of the microphone. I am the author of the novel, The Chicken Sisters coming out this summer and the book How To Be a Happier Parent as well as the former editor of the New York Times' Motherlode blog. And those are the things that I do and it's just me and Sarina today.

Sarina (02:23):

It is. We're here to work on KJ's launch sequence.

KJ (02:26):

Yes. And if we sound a little odd, we are (as we often are) working in our local libraries. So, yes. Sarina, as we all know, has many, many, many past identities and for all I know is also cat woman when we're not together. But one of those past identities is helping people, specifically authors, with their websites. So that's our plan today. We're going to go over my website and talk about how I can shift it from being a website, primarily designed for a parenting author to a website designed for an author in general. And the way we're going to do this (if you want to take a look) by the time you hear this, I will have changed it. So we're going to take a lot of screenshots. So if you'd like to see what we're talking about and we will describe it cause you're probably in your car. But if you do want to just head over to the show notes at amwritingpodcast.com and there will be pictures, screenshots of this website as it is today before the dramatic changes that I'm going to make to it. I mean, it's a good website somebody made it for me and I can change it and you know, there's nothing wrong with it other than that there is absolutely no mention of my nove,l at all whatsoever.

Sarina (03:55):

Right.

KJ (03:56):

Because that's the first thing that's wrong with it. Check.

Sarina (03:59):

So I usually get involved with an author's website at about this same point. Sometimes I'll get calls earlier before people have cover art for their book and those people have been told that they must have an author website and start building their platform and blah, blah blah, but they don't have a book cover. And that is fine. Like, it's great to be invested in handling your book launch, but if you really do your website before you have cover art, you're wasting your money because it, you know, it would be disappointing to do a website all in purple and to find that your book cover is bright yellow. So, you know, I gently dissuade people from spending their hard earned cash early on, but you're ready to go because you have your cover art.

KJ (04:50):

I do.

Sarina (04:51):

And I have to say that I have seen some smashingly beautiful author websites over time, just so original and stunning that angels weep.

KJ (05:03):

That's not really what I'm going for.

Sarina (05:04):

Well, that's not really what I go for either. I mean, I think that the most important, pretty much the only important thing is that your website do two things. One is that it helps readers bond with your book before they're ready to click that one-click button. So that means that they're familiar with the cover art. So when your page loads at kjdellantonia.com we should see the new cover art immediately. That's pretty much step one. And the second thing is that most readers, I mean they can learn about us anywhere, right? Like social media, Amazon, Barnesandnoble.com, there's so many places. But if they actually take the trouble to find their way all the way to your website, it's probably because they have a question. So we're going to anticipate that question and try to answer it within one to two clicks, two being the absolute maximum. So if you can do those two things, you're doing so, so well.

KJ (06:10):

Excellent. And one of the reasons I'm leaping on this is that I searched another author somebody that I know because I knew that they had a new book coming out, and I couldn't remember the name, and I needed to know for various reasons. And I went to their website and it wasn't there. And that's exactly what someone could do for me. Although let me just say that author's book is coming out before me. Okay. So that person had better just get on it.

Sarina (06:40):

And this is sometimes difficult, like not everybody likes noodling with websites. Like I love it, honestly.

KJ (06:46):

I'm happy to crawl around in there, too. I just want to have a mission.

Sarina (06:51):

Right. And for some people this is like the hardest part

KJ (06:55):

And if it is the hardest part, hire someone. You don't have to do this yourself.

Sarina (07:01):

It doesn't have to be fancy.

KJ (07:02):

It doesn't. Or you like Squarespace, right?

Sarina (07:06):

I love Squarespace. But there are even easier things to do. Like did you know that if you join the Author's Guild for approximately $200 a year, you get a free website from them and they will help you set it up?

KJ (07:18):

I did not.

Sarina (07:19):

Yeah. And you won't have as much control over it as I like to have over mine. But if you just hate websites, that is not a bad option.

KJ (07:27):

You know, we don't need blogs anymore. You know, your website is probably (correct me if I'm wrong) a largely static entity.

Sarina (07:38):

Well, mine is not actually.

KJ (07:40):

No, I know yours isn't. Because you are a person who puts out many, many books a year. So if you're that, then you're working with a website with probably shopping, and possibly merch, and some other things. I, on the other hand, am a one book every couple of years author at the moment, although I'd like to speed that up. And so I am not really needing to use my website to inform you of immediate developments.

Sarina (08:10):

Right. So I would like to add a third thing to our little to do list, though. Because I don't want to burden everyone and say that you have to do a million things on your author website. But honestly, this third thing could save your career, which is that you must have a way for people to sign up for your newsletter that is both easy without being irritating.

KJ (08:29):

That's a challenge.

Sarina (08:31):

Yeah. Well, I mean, we're all quite used to popups now. There are obnoxious ones and less obnoxious ones. And anyway, I'll leave that to our readers to decide.

KJ (08:41):

I turned my pop-up off because it was outdated and I could not figure it out. So normally I have a pop-up.

Sarina (08:49):

I turned my off as well because I didn't like the conversion rate of it. Like I thought, wow, I'm irritating 97 people for every three that type their email address in. But, instead I have many other very useful solicitations for email addresses.

KJ (09:10):

If you want to sign up for my email, you can go to followkj.com and there you will find my website sign up.

Sarina (09:16):

That's great.

KJ (09:17):

I think so, I'm pretty pleased with it. Wait, you'll laugh, I have to show it to Sarina. Because I changed it very on the fly recently I had to come up with an image very quickly and...

Sarina (09:34):

Oh, you know, that is funny. And I saw this the other day. I don't remember why, but I looked at it.

KJ (09:39):

It's a Playmobile character barfing into a tiny little Playmobile toliet.

Sarina (09:42):

Yes, we're going to have to work on this, KJ.

KJ (09:44):

I know, but I figured it would get attention.

Sarina (09:48):

It does, but your book cover needs to be right there.

KJ (09:49):

Let's start with the website and then we'll do the signup in a minute.

Sarina (10:00):

So right now, KJ's website has a bunch of wonderful parenting pictures on it, which suited her last book perfectly.

KJ (10:07):

And they're all in a sort of a red - pink theme.

Sarina (10:10):

Yes. I would quibble with the way that your cover art is not above the fold here. I will just tell you a couple of things about this challenge. So, websites as we design them on a screen are usually horizontal. Books are vertical. This is the main challenge of my life, aside from plotting novels. So KJ also just opened the website on her phone because this is something that I beg people to do and they don't usually listen. But more than half of your website visitors will be on their phones. And that is really hard for authors to figure out when they're struggling to get their hands around their website in the first place, that the phone part is almost more important. You know, people will come and say, 'Could you move my name a half an inch to the right?' And I usually let fly that line from The Matrix. Because most modern web building tools, i(ncluding Squarespace and the better templates at WordPress) now build a website on the fly for every single visitor based on the dimensions of their screen. So there is no one website, you can't design it like a movie poster anymore, you have to make something responsive. And that's why I use Squarespace because they're very good at that. And obviously lots of WordPress themes are too, I just am not as familiar.

KJ (11:37):

Mine is a WordPress theme, so we're not going to mess with the backend. I'm going to go and do that on my own. We're just going to talk about what it looks like and what it ought to look like. So step one...

Sarina (11:48):

You have a banner on yours with your name kind of in the middle instead of here above the main navigation. For displaying cover art I actually think that's a little trickier, but you can probably find a way around it or you can just move your name to the top. I know it's boring but it works. Okay? And then your main navigation is terrific. You have a home, you have the book which is going to have to change to books at the top and one of those books will be your new one. You have share the book, which is a great idea, you have blog, the podcast, resources, about KJ Dell'Antonia, and media, which are all great. So I actually wonder if about KJ Dell'Antonia and media couldn't become one thing if you wanted them to be. There's nothing wrong with there being two. So people get tunnel vision and let's say somebody wants to book you on The Today Show for your new book. So one of these things should say contact, because people get tunnel vision and I'm sure your contact information is here. But I've been like half asleep, needing coffee, and not spotting it on a website, and you really don't want that to happen to you. So, contact should always be one of those things. And also, if you did dispense with your pop-up and you're leaving that that way, then the thing on the far right should be subscribe. And that can hop right to that page you showed me a second ago, the follow KJ page, but it should be there. Yeah, so we're doing great. Now, if you scroll down on KJ's front page you do get her most recent book before this new one. Oh, okay, I would've put the bio links right here, but you have them fairly close. So that's all good. And then you could also have, instead of this got a book club thing (not that there's anything wrong with it) an email signup here, as well. So I would like to have one up in the main nav and then here on the scrolly scrolly front page. So the reason that websites got scrolly scrolly is because of phones.

KJ (14:01):

Let's have a look at it scrolling on my phone. So on the website you see things laid out, like you see the book cover and then to the right you see the text about the book. On the mobile, you see the book cover and then you scroll down and you see the text about the book, and then you scroll down and you'll see the by the book in a vertical list.

Sarina (14:25):

So the buttons are horizontal on the laptop and they're vertical on the phone. And that's because you have a properly responsive website. Now, there are some authors who had their websites built more than 10 years ago, and the site still looks good when you pull it up on the computer. But if you pull it up on the phone, it's quite broken. And here's the reason that's not good. Google will punish you. They promote (in their search rankings) sites that perform on a mobile device and they sort of demote sites that don't. And you don't want to be demoted by Google. You know that old joke like, where's the best place to hide a dead body? On the seventh page of the Google search result. Okay, so don't be that dead body.

KJ (15:21):

So, but it's okay to have the scrolly scrolly first page is what I'm hearing. So the fact that if you just keep scrolling, you just get stuff, after stuff, after stuff is fine. It's just that maybe the stuff is not in the right order.

Sarina (15:38):

Well, your stuff was in a decent order. It's like the New York Times - you know, above the fold, below the fold. So here's the thing, when I'm helping an author with a website, I send a questionnaire. And these are the questions on the questionnaire. Which author websites in your own genre do you like best? Cause that's not a bad place to get inspiration; to take a shortcut to figure out what other people are doing. Right?

KJ (16:06):

That's how we made our podcast. There's a podcast, it's called Hurry Slowly. I love her and I love the design of her website. And I basically was just like, this really looks great. I'm going to make ours look pretty much just like this and it is. Thank you very much, Jocelyn Keighley.

Sarina (16:26):

Then the second question, the colors on your site will be chosen to compliment your cover art, but please tell me what colors do you not like and what are you hoping to see? And so with you, you have a lot of colors between your two books, but they compliment each other and that's just where you know we would go.

KJ (16:41):

Yeah, we're going to lose the pink-iness of this theme and shift it.

Sarina (16:47):

And shift it to highlight the yellow. And then it will look right. So then, one of the hardest decisions is what do you want your visitors to see first when they arrive on your site. In other words, the most valuable real estate should be allocated to which of the following? And these four choices cover almost everybody. So choice one - your newest cover art and a blurb quote, which is never a bad choice. So maybe you have that cover because you want readers to bond with it immediately. And you have a very short blurb quote, like the best little bit of something that somebody said. And then a button that says 'Read more' so you can put that person right onto that book's page. So that's always a good decision if you have a book coming out. Then choice two - a view of all of your covers, like an art gallery. Like if you have an extensive backlist and you want readers of your most recent book. Cause what if someone arrives on your site with a question, what else did she write? So that's the one click thing. And in your case we would have it in a dropdown menu probably cause the art gallery doesn't really work for you. So choice three - your newest blog post. So this is usually not the right choice for my clients, but it could be if you are a very active blogger and your blogging was related to the book you were trying to sell. Then that might work. And the last choice I have here - is a book representing each of your various series.

KJ (18:18):

And that's what yours looks like.

Sarina (18:20):

Yes. And the websites that have the most content on them are the biggest challenge. Because when we have that question - what question did the person arrive with? The more books you have, the more varied that question could be. Like what's next and this or that series, which audio book did I not listen to? You know, the questions get more complicated with the more books someone has in their catalog.

KJ (18:44):

Yeah. I don't think that there are that many questions you're going to come to my website looking for an answer to. I guess a peculiarity of my website is that I have these resources. And they are parenting resources. You can get holiday survival guides, you can get an ebook about homework, you can get the 10 mantras for happier parents. I mean, I have quite a few of them. Most fiction readers aren't going to be here coming after these things. But my parenting book is also coming out in paperback. So some people will be coming out for them and sometimes I will be talking about them, so it's a little more complicated.

Sarina (19:28):

I wonder if your website shouldn't have two book covers sort of facing each other on the front of it. With The Chicken Sisters on the left and The Happier Parent on the right. And it's basically like, people make a grand choice the minute they arrive at your website because they're probably there for what topic. And then you would sort of move the person on to the page that deals with that and your resources might be down at the scrolly scrolly bottom of the parenting book.

KJ (19:56):

And right now the resources require you to add your email and they might as well continue to require you give your email. That seems like a good idea although in terms of my personal ability to adjust this website, hopefully I can pull it off. I've done them. Somebody else did this one. I don't have the money to have them go back in and fix it. I might get somebody else. But see on this page your name is at the top, not in the middle. So you just need to duplicate a page like this. You're right. So what I can do is abandon the current - just to get a little bit into the weeds, but you might be in my position too - is abandon the current. So right now, when you go to kjdellantonia.com it's actually not pointing to what's called home here. It's pointing to the book. So I can pick anywhere. So you can pick anywhere for you know, u.com to point to. I mean home is probably not a necessary piece of it. Okay. Like you said, I can do some redesigning here.

Sarina (21:14):

And you know, as you move through the process of pre-launch, to the book launch, to after the launch, your needs change a little bit. I am accustomed to people who come back once a year to have their website gussied up for their new book. One thing I would like to mention for any listeners who are considering paying to have a website done is please don't hire someone who wants you to pay them on a monthly basis forever. This used to be the way it was done. And there are still some people out there who are paying for a website which is static and they're just paying to have it hosted cause they're stuck. And you don't have to do that. You can pay someone to design a thing and to set up the hosting for you, but then you have to have the keys, you know?

KJ (22:10):

So part of your design process, and it was part of mine, should be the person walking you through the most basic changes that you might want to make on your website. So, to change the pictures, to change the pop-up, to change where the homepage points, you should know how to do those small things. And I do, it's more that I think they used something called Bakery Builder to build this. And it's not my more familiar thing. I can do it. And I will say, you can find that, just ask around. Ask your author friends for who has designed their website but do ask around, because I also have a friend who's been working on designing her website with her web designer for let's see, since August. Yeah. The person is really slow and she called me fairly recently and was like, 'Is this normal?' And I was like, 'No, absolutely not.' Of course, this friend also draws a picture of what she wants it to look like and then sends that to the web designer. So the web designer may also be a little frustrated. There may be fault on both sides, but I don't think so. I think it just should not be taking anywhere near this long. It's crazy. Somebody should be able to get you rolling fairly quickly.

Sarina (23:39):

And also just to have the ability to say when it will be done.

KJ (23:45):

Alright. What's next?

Sarina (23:47):

Well, if you really like working with your website, there are so many things you can do to help guide your author destiny using your own website. For example, you can give away a free book in exchange for an email signup. So the parts of my website that you can see when you just navigate to Sarinabowen.com is like just the tip of that iceberg because I have lots of other hidden content there that is serving special purposes for me. And the more comfortable you are touching your own website and making pages, the more fun you can have with that. So during launch week, I usually have a contest where people enter it by sharing the book. Now, not every reader of my books is interested in entering the giveaway and sharing the cover, and that's fine. But for that core of people who is really interested in helping me promote it (for whatever reason) I have a contest on a hidden page in my website where you enter the link of where you shared it, and you put in your name, and the winner gets a $25 gift card or something. So there's all kinds of things you can run off of your own website that are more controllable than social media. And if you think about Facebook, which we all basically have to use when we promote a book, it's ugly and you can't make a post do what you want. You can't make it have a button. It's just not a friendly, friendly place in the world. And when you become a little more comfortable with using your own site, you suddenly figure out how much you can do.

KJ (25:34):

I think a lot of people who have a website don't realize that you can have pages on your website that aren't immediately visible to every visitor to your website. And it's not that they're hidden. It's not that someone who typed you know, KJDellantonia.com/potatocakes wouldn't get to the potato cakes page, but who's gonna do that? And it's not in your menu. So you can have, you can have a hundred potato cake pages or whatever. And I think even I forget that sometimes.

Sarina (26:13):

So if you're doing an event in Chicago, you could have kjdellantonia.com/chicago if there was something, a resource there that you wanted those people to have.

KJ (26:20):

And if you want to, you can buy you can buy a special URL. Like you can create a page within your own website. So it's kjdellantonia.com/potato cakes. But instead you buy the website you know, potato lovers.com and then you just point it, you don't create a website for potatocakelovers.com. You just point it to that page on your website. So there's all kinds of playful things. So for example, this follow KJ link, I just own that and I just point it to different things. Right now it's actually pointed to the Flodesk, which is the email software that I used to create my emails. But it used to be pointed to a page within my website. And before that it was pointed to a Mailchimp page. I can point that wherever I want to.

Sarina (27:08):

Right. And you actually bring up a really good point, which is it's usually better to point your signup at your own website. Like you have this capacity to point at different places which protects you. But I have a friend who can never leave MailChimp because she has the MailChimp signup link in the back of a 40 book backlist. So she's stuck there at their new higher prices because she can't go and change. She literally can't, because the people that bought that book before now and they read it and click on that link are going to her old spot.

KJ (27:50):

Yeah, no she's stuck. I remember you telling me about that cause I had kind of fallen into that cause I pointed something that I couldn't unpoint because I forgot things.

Sarina (28:01):

So I use a service called Genius Links and it's a page short linker, but you can change the destination link of absolutely anything.

KJ (28:13):

That is very nice because you can't do that with tinyurl.com.

Sarina (28:17):

Right. So Genius Links is great. There are probably others. I believe smartURL allows you to change the ultimate destination. But the other thing that Genius does (it does several things well, actually) it also points people to the Amazon store of their geographical location. So I can make one Amazon link, but it's a Genius link and if that person is in France, it will take them to Amazon.Fr. And the other thing it does (it pays for itself) is that if you have affiliate accounts at Amazon, Apple, Google, Kobo, (those are the ones that come to mind) you put that information into Genius and it just adds it to every single link. And that is very helpful to me as well. Yeah, not Kobo actually. But anyway, there's lots of ways. So, I just got a check from Apple Affiliates for 500 bucks, which I'm sure paid for my entire year's worth of Genius linking. So it's not just this added expense, but it can actually put money in your pocket.

KJ (29:30):

So, what's next? Should we look at anything else on my thing specifically?

Sarina (29:36):

I think your work is cut out for you in a way that is quite doable. You're gonna change some colors around.

KJ (29:45):

I'm going to just have fewer things up here at the top, I think. There's already some chickens so I'm partly set.

Sarina (29:52):

You're going to get both of those books on the front page and probably lose some more personal pictures because they won't make as much sense to your novel.

KJ (30:02):

So I'm just going to abandon some of these pages. I'm just going to make a new page - a new landing page.

Sarina (30:12):

Just like if you were going to redo chapter four of your work in progress, you wouldn't delete chapter four, you copy it, and tinker until we're satisfied. So this will be the same.

KJ (30:23):

Yup. That's my plan. Any other thoughts for people as they embark on either changing or creating their own websites?

Sarina (30:32):

I would look into the Authors Guild if you're really hesitant to play with websites. I would look into Squarespace if you're slightly more adventurous. I dislike WordPress with the fire of a thousand suns, so I can't in good conscience recommend it. Although lots of people like it, I'm not a fan of Wix. Usually the platforms that have a free option look kind of...I don't know, but I don't like them. But one free option that is, you know at least more user friendly is Blogger. Like you can still make a website at Google and it is what it is, but if you need a landing spot and you have no funds to devote to that at this point then there are ways to make happen.

KJ (31:26):

I'm trying to think if there's anything else we should say about websites before we move on. You should have one.

Sarina (31:35):

You should have one. It won't sell your book, though. It's great to be find-able and to help you answer questions.

KJ (31:45):

I wanted to talk about the whole, should I have a blog page? Not me personally, but as a general rule. If a blog feels like a like a mandatory additional task to you, then my thought for you is no, you don't really need to. Cause there's nothing worse than clicking on someone's blog page and seeing three entries from 2016.

Sarina (32:11):

Right. Well the other thing is you can call it news. And you can just put something there three times a year when you have news. Like, here's my new cover. And the nice thing about having that there is that it's also then you can put the link to that news on Facebook instead of typing the news into Facebook.

KJ (32:33):

And the other nice thing is that typically if you use the blog software of whatever you are creating, that is designed to be easily updatable. So if you use that for your news, it's designed so that you could just pop in and be like, 'I'll be in Chicago.' And that's it. You don't have to sort of change something that feels more set on your page. So there's reasons to use that software, but maybe not to call it blog.

Sarina (33:03):

Yeah. It used to be, like 15 years ago. Every agent would say you have to blog. But that's just not true anymore. People consume their news differently.

KJ (33:39):

The first decision is going to be to go in here, put the two book covers up and close off everything else while I revise it. Basically I'm going to just do that. So if anyone comes in the meantime, there are two book covers, there are links to the books and I'm playing around in the background.

Sarina (33:58):

Right. And when you link your book, you should do a few vendors. Cause nobody wants to live in a world where Amazon is the only store. No. And we do have that new one.

KJ (34:12):

What's it called again? I can't remember.

Sarina (34:17):

Is it BookShop?

KJ (34:17):

Maybe...

Sarina (34:18):

We're going to find this and put it in the show notes.

KJ (34:20):

Yeah, because it's important. Yeah, we've been linking to Indiebound, but it's changing. The booksellers association is creating a new way for authors to link to an Indie supporting platform, which can help you sell books. Cause I will say Indiebound affiliate linking is agonizingly painful (as the person who does it). And also, you listeners typically don't end up buying the book that way. And I get it. But I could see why you're not buying it on Indiebound, but we don't want to link to Amazon because while we're all buying stuff from Amazon, we don't want them to rule the world.

Sarina (35:17):

So bookshop.org is the new storefront and it's new, new, new, like it just launched within the last four weeks. And they're going to take some of the friction of buying from Indiebound away. So give bookshop.org a look and they also have an affiliate program, but every book that is purchased on here kicks profit into a fund, which is divided among the member bookstores, which is most independent bookstores.

KJ (35:48):

And the cool thing that they're doing is helping those independent bookstores set up their own websites. So this doesn't really apply to us, but it's kind of neat. I'm pleased, I'm delighted that it's out there.

Sarina (35:59):

After I read about it, I thought, Oh my goodness, this should not have taken so long.

KJ (36:06):

Now we got to figure out what we've been reading.

Sarina (36:08):

Oh, I know. I'm ready. Well, yesterday I opened an envelope and discovered a copy of Chasing Cassandra by Lisa Kleypas inside, which means that at some point I pre-ordered it and I never preorder anything, but I love this author so much and she has a new novel about once a year, which is just about right because if she had more of them, I would never get anything done because she is my queen. She is a romance author, her series is set in the Victorian era, actually in England. But she's so skillful with characters and just so amazing with dialogue that I have to take a few deep breaths after I finish her book and go look at my poor excuse for a book afterwards.

KJ (36:59):

I think everybody has somebody that is like that. So I have just finished Minor Dramas and Other Catastrophes by Kathleen West. I don't think I've mentioned it on the podcast yet, but I loved it. If you liked The Gifted School, if you have liked books by Tom Perrotta, basically if books set in hothouse schools (public, not boarding schools, that's a different genre) but books set in a hothouse schools full of crazy parents are something that you enjoy (and I do) then this is one for you. It's a really fun story of a dedicated teacher who's a little bit too too intense about teaching her students about the social evils of the world and how the parents around her react to that. It just fun, it's a weekend read, it's entertaining, it's smart, the characters are great. I think you'll enjoy it. So that's Minor Dramas and Other Catastrophes from Kathleen West. Alright, that is our podcast, but before we shut down, let me please remind you to head out to Facebook if you can stand it and join our Facebook group where we don't talk about any of the things that you avoid Facebook for. Instead, we talk about all things writing related, and writerly questions, and just about anything you can get it answered. If you want to find the show notes and the screenshots from the website that we're talking about that's amwritingpodcast.com, which is also where you can find links to support the podcast if you'd like to with a small donation and supporters of the podcast get (pretty much weekly) top fives and small mini podcasts, five minute long shorts, little bits of advice from one of us to all of you that drop right into your podcast player once you get it set up, you don't have to go somewhere special to listen. I think that's cool. That's it. Now you can take us out.

Sarina (39:35):

Until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 201: #Creatinga(Fictional)DysfunctionalFamily Mar 06, 2020

And you thought our shelves full of self help books were just to manage our own issues! Nope, there’s another use for them. Our guest this week, Kathleen Smith, is a therapist and writer and the author of Everything Isn't Terrible, a helpful and humorous guide to shedding our anxious habits and building a more solid sense of self in our increasingly anxiety-inducing world. It’s very useful, and we’re valiantly attempting to tame our own anxieties—but that’s not (much of) what we talk about. Instead, we’re focused on what’s really important—and within our control: Creating believable, dysfunctional characters and then helping them to grow and change.

We talk about romance dynamics: the pursuer and the pursued, the over-functioner and the slacker—and how important it is that a couple be at a similar level of maturity (or, more likely, immaturity) to be believable. From there, it’s headlong into siblings, birth order and circumstance, family coping mechanisms and some of the ways to develop deeper conflict within our work. It’s such a great conversation.

Episode links and a transcript follow. Thanks for being with us! If you love the podcast, tell a friend. Right now. Just drop everything and go sit someone down and make them listen. And if you love the podcast, you can support it! There are perks. #SupporterMini episodes. #WriterTopFives.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

Genograms: Assessment and Intervention

Family Constellation, Walter Toman

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Kathleen: Bringing Down the Duke, Evie Dunmore

KJ: Ex Libris, Anne Fadiman

The Uncommon Reader: A Novella, Alan Bennett

Sarina: 19 Love Songs, David Levithan

Our guest for this episode is Kathleen Smith, author of Everything Isn't Terrible: Conquer Your Insecurities, Interrupt Your Anxiety, and Finally Calm Down. For more:

Website - KathleenSmith.net

Twitter - @fangirltherapy

Instagram - @kathleensmithwrites

Free Anxiety Newsletter - https://theanxiousoverachiever.substack.com/

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator—training book coaches and matching coaches and writers.

Find out more: https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwriting.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ (00:01):

Hey listeners, KJ here, if you're in with us every week, you're what I like to call people of the book. And some of us book people discover somewhere along the way that not only are we writers, we're people with a gift for encouraging other writers. Maybe that comes out in small ways for you, but for some of you it's a calling and an opportunity to build a career doing work you love. Our sponsor, Author Accelerator, provides book coaching to authors like me, but also needs and trains book coaches. And if that's got your ears perked up, head to authoraccelerator.com and click on become a book coach. Is it recording? Now. It's recording.

Jess (00:44):

Now it's recording.

KJ (00:44):

Yay!

Jess (00:44):

Go ahead.

KJ (00:46):

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone, trying to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess (00:50):

Alright, let's start over.

KJ (00:51):

Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things - short things, long things, fictional things, non-fictional things, something in between kinds of things, which I don't know that we really recommend, it depends on where you're writing for. But in any case, as regular listeners know and any new listeners are about to find out, this is the podcast about figuring out how to sit down and get your work done.

Sarina (01:30):

I'm Sarina Bowen. I only write long things and fictional things. I'm the author of 30-odd romance novels and my newest one is called Heartland. You can find all about it at sarinabowen.com.

KJ (01:46):

I feel like the things that we write are feeling particularly long this week. I don't know about you, but I feel like I only write really long things that somehow don't have enough words. Yeah, but they sure feel long to me. I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of my first novel, my debut novel, is The Chicken Sisters coming out in June of 2020 and I'm also the former lead editor and columnist for the New York Times of the Motherlode and the author of How To Be a Happier Parent, which is out in hardback now and will be out in paperback this summer.

KJ (02:20):

And I am delighted to say that we have a guest today. This is going to be a really fun, if somewhat fictionally focused episode. Today we are joined by Kathleen Smith, a therapist and writer and the author of Everything Isn't Terrible: A Helpful and (I can vouch for this) Humorous Guide to Shedding Our Anxious Habits and Building a More Solid Sense of Self in Our Increasingly Anxiety Inducing World, which is brilliant. And we love it. And we are working away at our own anxieties. But we've actually asked Kathleen here today to talk about the anxieties we have more control over - the anxieties of our fictional characters. In other words, we're going to talk about creating believable, dysfunctional characters and families and then helping them to grow, and change, and get better. Welcome.

Kathleen (03:12):

I'm so excited to talk about this topic with you guys. Thanks for having me.

KJ (03:16):

Thanks for suggesting it and coming. We think this is fantastic. It's so funny because as I read, Everything Isn't Terrible and I have been, I sort of flick between, Oh wait, I need this. Oh wait, my character needs this. Oh wait, I do this with my mother. Oh wait, does my character? I think I need to read it twice, once in each guise. So how did you think of the idea of using a therapeutic formula, a therapeutic lens to view fictional characters?

Kathleen (03:54):

First of all, I'm a huge fan girl and I love reading books and watching TV shows with complex families. Right? You know, everyone these days is obsessed with succession, right? Or the crown or these sort of glamorous, dysfunctional families. But as a therapist, I'm a firm believer that everyone's family is just as interesting. You know, if you'd sorta take a dive in and look at the rich sort of emotional history of a family. So I love seeing it in real life and I love seeing it in fiction, too, especially when it's done really well.

Sarina (04:30):

Which fictional families in print have you enjoyed recently? I was so curious about this.

Kathleen (04:36):

Yeah. Well one thing I'm reading right now is I'm rereading Emma because you know, the new movie is coming out. So it's interesting to see some of the family dynamics in that. And you know, sibling position. And I think Jane Austen in particular does such a wonderful job bringing out those differences and the dynamics of people. So that's one thing I'm enjoying right now.

KJ (05:00):

You used another Jane Austen example with us, which was just sort of to get right deep into it, you were talking about how spouses tend to be at the same level of emotional maturity, even though they might express it differently. And you gave the example of the Bennetts in Pride and Prejudice. And that just made me laugh because I've read Pride and Prejudice many times, but also multiple recreations of it, recently. That happens to be a trope that I love and yes, absolutely. I'd never thought of it that way, but they're both equally awful. It's just that one of them is awful in a more appealing kind of way.

Kathleen (05:41):

Absolutely. You know, and I think we like to think that we're more mature than our spouses, but at least the theory I was trained in, that is not the case. We tend to be attracted to people who are at the same level of emotional maturity. So I think that's important to think about when you're creating characters, and a marriage, or in a relationship. What that kind of reciprocity is and how that sort of fits together. Like just you said though, one person might be seen as the problematic one, right? But that's often not the case.

KJ (06:12):

We are going to think of this firmly from a fictional perspective and yeah, let's dig into that. So we've got maybe we've got two romantic leads and we're seeing one of them as the problem, you know, one of them is not returning phone calls or is not living up to expectations, but it's important that they both have sort of equal level of flaws is what I'm hearing you saying.

Kathleen (06:40):

Yeah. I mean you could have, and this is such a classic relationship thing, you could have one person who's the distant one, right. And then one person who is sort of the anxious pursuer and we interpret one as necessarily having the problem, but they're both caught up in this sort of anxious dance of trying to relate to one another. Or trying to get away from the anxiety. Or another classic example is like one person is an over functioner, right? And they take on all the responsibility and do everything and the other person is seen sort of as a slacker, right? Or the lazy one, but they're just responding to the other person's behavior. So, it's definitely a two person dance.

Sarina (07:20):

This also makes me think of a trope that I see in romance all the time that I'm not a huge great fan of, which is the crazy ex. Sometimes you get sort of cheap conflict in a romantic plot arc because somebody has a crazy ex, but it's really hard to write a good crazy ex without painting your hero or heroine as kind of an idiot for staying with that person in the first place.

KJ (07:48):

Oh, good point. Yeah.

Kathleen (07:51):

It doesn't make any sense to have them be sort of at different levels of functioning. They probably wouldn't have been together in the first place if that were the case.

Sarina (07:59):

Yeah. I mean, you can always make a case for somebody experiencing a lot of growth since they originally got together with that person. But yeah, it's hard. One time I was writing a book three with my collaborators and we already knew from books one and two who the hero and heroine of book three were. And this romance had a lot of potential already. But we realized as we were sitting down to plot it, that both characters came from really wonderful, stable families and we sort of looked at each other and went, 'Oh, we're in so much trouble.'

KJ (08:39):

Yeah. Let's talk about how that family background matters. I mean, why can't we create a book around two people from wonderful, stable homes who've been supported, and loved, and had only good experiences all of their lives? Besides because they don't exist.

Kathleen (08:56):

Well, you know, in my book I use that well-known Mary Carr quote that a dysfunctional family is any family with two people in it. Right? Or it's something like that. So I don't know if such a thing exists, first of all. You know, there's always some amount of anxiety and dysfunction in any family, but you know, it's much more interesting and it's much more rich to sort of go back a generation or two and ask yourself what are the processes that work here, you know, is this a family that avoids each other in distances and that's how they deal with everything. Is this a family that cuts people off the second they disagree with them or do something scandalous? Or is this a family who's all in each other's business and is constantly doing things for people that they can do for themselves? You know, it's interesting to think about what some of those patterns might be and then all of a sudden you have kind of set the stage for your character to kind of emerge from that. And that can influence then how they are in their romantic relationships, or in their work, or with their own family. So just by doing that sort of homework ahead of time, you have such a great jumping off point for creating conflict and plot.

Sarina (10:08):

Sometimes it feels like it's really hard to do that ahead of time and you have to kind of wade in first.

Kathleen (10:14):

Yeah, I mean I think that's why it's useful to know your own family really well, first of all. It can be an inspiration or other people's to kind of get you curious about that. But you know, just taking the time to kind of draw that out and draw a little diagram or just some, some facts can be really useful.

KJ (10:34):

Well, you suggested four different sort of family patterns, let's talk about those and how we might be able to use them in fiction.

Kathleen (10:42):

The first one is distance. That's sort of the most obvious things that we do as humans when we're nervous, or upset, or stressed, right? Like we just get out of there as quickly as possible. But there's also emotional distance, right? So as a family, only talking about the weather, or sports, or very superficial things as a way of managing sort of the underlying anxiety. And then the second one is conflict, which is a little weird because at first glance you don't think, well, conflict doesn't manage anxiety, right? Like doesn't that cause anxiety? But if I'm convinced that someone is wrong all the time, then that calms me down a little bit. It's actually adaptive. So a lot of families use conflict and sort of focus on one person as the problem. To calm them down. And I think that's so useful in fiction because it sort of helps you see that just the person who is identified as having the problem isn't the only player here. Right? Everyone is contributing to that in their own way. And you want me to keep going?

KJ (11:49):

No, I'm thinking about that. The conflict one. I think it kind of goes back to what we're talking about in a romantic relationship where from a fictional point of view, you can draw a picture that looks like one person is the problem. And what is going to evolve is that the people who are making that person the problem are also the problem.

Kathleen (12:16):

Exactly. Everyone is contributing. Right? And I think that's a good point is you can't look at a person sort of and tell how mature they actually are. Because you know, everyone is sort of propping up other people and so one person in a family might be doing really well and they might have a stable job and seem like a healthy person, but it's because they're directing all their attention onto fixing a kid. Right? Or a sibling or a parent. It all sort of gets diverted to this one per person who gets identified as the problem. So that's what's so great about humans is we're just such tricky, complex creatures you can't necessarily take at face value, how mature a person is and how they're going to act in crisis people who are actually much less mature than we think we are.

KJ (13:10):

And how does that dynamic play out on the other side, the person who is sort of constantly being fixed?

Kathleen (13:16):

Yeah, I mean it's sort of - we're getting into Jess territory with her writing about parents focusing on kids. But you know, the idea is that if you tell a person that there's something wrong with them or there's something to be anxious about, they start to believe it. So it's useful for them to fall into that role and to play that role to kind of keep things stable. But that doesn't mean that they won't have problems, you know, they might develop more of the symptoms or more of the problems because everyone in that family is anxiously focused on them.

KJ (13:50):

So what I'm hearing is that it's worth, like everyone in the story is invested in keeping the status quo, even if the status quo is crappy.

Kathleen (14:00):

Yes. And that's such a great plot turning point as well, because if that person gets sober, or starts doing better, or acts differently, it throws everybody off. You think that they want the person to get better, but then they start doing things differently, and it changes the whole system. It changes all of the dynamics. And so that's such an interesting thing to play around with when, okay, what if the person who is seen as the problem child or the problem spouse starts doing better? That is a great sort of turning point for shaking things up because people don't like it. They will push back, you know? And it's just really fascinating to see or to read about.

KJ (14:45):

Okay. So that was two dysfunctional family tropes. What else you got?

Kathleen (14:50):

Yeah, well, the other one is very classic. It's overfunctioning and underfunctioning. And so this plays out a lot in marriages especially, but can also with parents and kids, or with siblings. You know, who is the person who is becoming over responsible in times of stress, right? They are doing things for others that they could do for themselves. You know, and who was the underfunctioner, they're letting the other person take on that responsibility and that sort of ends up - you know, the underfunctioner is often a person who might develop substance abuse problems or other issues because they're sort of in that one down position. And so, you know, based on your sibling position, right? Like, so if your mother was an overfunctioner and her mother was an overfunctioner, you know, you're really gonna get it, right? If you're the first born, that's probably going to be your role. Or if you had a parent who was always overfunctioning for you, you might be a little bit less capable. And so that's kind of an interesting thing to play around with. And if you're looking at a family, you're creating and saying, okay, who are the overfunctioners here and how did they get in the way of everyone else growing up a little bit?

KJ (16:07):

Does it work like horoscopes where overfunctioners are more likely to be drawn in relationships to slackers or are they drawn to other overfunctioners or could it just be anything?

Speaker 4 (16:22):

Oh no. Yeah, it's reciprocal. Right? So it's the two people participating in the dynamic.

KJ (16:29):

So you might have an overfunctioner within their family and they're drawn to someone who's an underfunctioner within their family?

Kathleen (16:36):

Well if you're talking to a romantic relationship?

KJ (16:39):

Yeah, I was talking about a romantic relationship.

Kathleen (16:40):

Definitely, that works a lot. Two overfunctioners are probably gonna butt heads a lot. So you could still write that in a romance. Absolutely. But it would be an added challenge because both people are trying to care for each other, and help each other, and that causes issues.

Sarina (16:56):

That sounds fun to me actually. Like the butting heads is often a really terrific romantic conflict.

Kathleen (17:05):

Absolutely. And if we're going to talk about siblings later too, that's another thing. If you have two oldest children, they're probably gonna be that way. So it's an interesting dynamic. But yeah. So if we want to move on, the fourth one is triangles. And everyone knows about triangles, right? It's human nature when two people are tense to pull in a third person or to focus on a third person to calm things down. So it's not just a love triangle. It's sort of the ways that we use other people to calm down our relationship with another person. And those are fun if you're drawing a family diagram to sit down and ask yourself, what are the triangles in this family? Is it two siblings against parent? Is it a parent who's using a sibling to talk to another sibling? You know, is it two parents and a child? The example I love to give - it's from television, but you know, everybody's pretty familiar I think with the show Everybody loves Raymond, it's been awhile since it was on, but I think most people are familiar with it - and there's this classic triangle in it between the mother-in-law Marie, the son Raymond, and the wife Deborah. And everyone thinks that the conflict is between Debra and Marie, right? The mother-in-law and the daughter. But you know, Ray is actually (whether he realizes it or not) is actually quite manipulative because he is able to stay out of the conflict by putting it on the two of them. But, you know, his stance is, Oh, this issue is between you guys. But he's actually contributing to it by being a part of the triangle and by saying he has nothing to do with it. And so it's so interesting to kind of play around with and see how these dynamics with three people could be interesting because - the idea is that when two people are getting along, the third person feels like they're left out and they'll try and butt in and cause conflict. But if two people are having a fight, the third person doesn't really want to be involved in it. The safe place is kind of on the outside. So that's just another fun family dynamic or relationship.

KJ (19:20):

Or you might have a third person who is trying to fix it. Or a third person who's trying to make it worse.

Kathleen (19:26):

Yeah, absolutely.

KJ (19:27):

Yeah, I think it's neat. This is an interesting thing to think of from official perspective because I feel like we often sort of have a conflict, or a plot point, or something that's happening and we've only looked at the point of view of maybe the two main players and to always think, well who's the third player here? That's a different approach.

Kathleen (19:49):

Yeah, absolutely. And who's maybe trying to give them advice or calm things down. And it can be a positive thing. It's not necessarily negative, but there's usually always more than two people involved when there's conflict.

KJ (20:03):

So it sounds like from there we should start, you know, taking a look at the siblings in our people's relationships, even if we weren't thinking of a sibling as a big player in a plot. It sounds like we better know who the siblings are and how they play out.

Kathleen (20:19):

Yeah. And that's one of the most interesting questions you can ask is what is the person's position in their family? And how does that inform how they are in all other relationships? You know, sibling position is definitely a part of it. There's actually this other cool book I would recommend to listeners. This guy named Walter Toman in the 60s did this huge study where he interviewed people about their sibling positions and he wrote this book about what other people they would match well with in a romantic relationship, and who they'd be friends with, and who they'd get into fights with, and sort of what their careers would be. You know, it's such a cool resource. The only issue is it was written in the 60s, right? So it's only talking about straight couples and women aren't assumed to have careers. So you kind of have to take that into account when you're reading it, but it's almost like kind of reading a horoscope in a way. It's just so interesting to me because I love reading them to people to see if their spouse or other people in their life match with it based on this description.

KJ (21:28):

So what is the book?

Kathleen (21:29):

It's called Family Constellations.

KJ (21:32):

It sounds very horoscope.

Kathleen (21:35):

It does, right? But it's interesting, you know, the idea is that oldest and youngest tend to pair well together. You know, oldest and oldest tend to butt heads a little bit. And youngest and youngest kinda just faff about and don't know what to do a lot. So and obviously there's a lots of exceptions and lots of happy marriages despite these things, but it can play a role, you know, and so it's interesting to read these and think about whether they could be useful when you're creating characters. And yeah, it's just an interesting resource I would recommend to people. But it's not just your sibling position, it's what was happening in your family around the time you were born. So, on a serious note, say like a woman had had a stillbirth or multiple miscarriages right before the birth of a child, that child is probably going to get a little bit more of an anxious focus when they're born. Because of all the things, or if there's just been a death in the family, right? There's just more anxiety in the air. And so they might have a little bit of a harder time kind of growing up and being an individual because that is sort of one extra challenge that they have. Or is it a younger sibling and the parents are a lot older and so they're just kind of doing whatever and are more sort of Laissez Faire in their parenting. Or is it six boys and one girl? How was that girl treated differently in the family and how is her role different? And it's not just the sibling position, it's your parents' sibling positions. I mentioned this earlier, like if this is the oldest of an oldest of an oldest, right? They're really gonna like to be in charge and they're probably going to be an overfunctioner. And it's just interesting to kind of play around with it and think about those positions.

Sarina (23:32):

You know who I feel is really good at writing these relationships is a novelist, Kristin Higgins. She uses siblings a lot, and she does this wonderful thing where she is able to use all of this family position stuff. And then at the end of the books, avert it, so that the sister that you weren't expecting to really be there in the clinch, is the one who makes the difference.

Kathleen (24:02):

That's really interesting.

Sarina (24:03):

Yeah. But she does it in a very believable way. So it's not as if she's throwing away those tendencies, but rather, you know, the exception proves the rule kind of manipulation. It's pretty neat.

KJ (24:16):

Well, that's kind of the point of what we're trying to do here is to see where our characters start out and then pull them to a different place. Right? So we want the character who maybe without sort of saying it in so many words, but who looks at their distancing relationship with their family and goes, okay, I'm going to stop hiding, I'm going to stop not talking. I'm gonna change and grow. And yeah, it's the relationships with the other people around them, but ultimately, it's that protagonists, you know, where they start and where they end that matters for the story.

Kathleen (24:58):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a good question to ask. If you're thinking about, okay, how do I create a disruption too - is anytime someone is doing the opposite of what they would normally do to calm things down, that's when you get the shakeup, that's when you get the initial pushback, right? Like it might help things in the long run, but temporarily it's going to increase the anxiety and maybe increase the conflict a little bit. So that's a wonderful question to ask is what does my character normally do in stressful situations or when they are anxious and can I create a situation where they do the opposite and what is everyone's response to that? How does everyone sort of turn on that moment? And I think that's an interesting way to kind of play around with creating a little bit of conflict in a family.

Sarina (25:48):

Yeah, you went into this in your book, Everything Isn't Terrible, I can't remember which example, but when somebody finally started having more productive responses to the two less functional people in their family it freaked everybody out and made everything harder immediately, even though it was the right course of action and eventually got there. But you're right, that's a nice plot drama.

KJ (26:19):

So something else you also mentioned was drawing this out and you use the word genograms and you triangles. And I think we're getting this picture of family trees and geometry. And how might that work? What can we draw?

Kathleen (26:36):

Well, you know sometimes it's called a family diagram. Sometimes it's called a genogram, but basically it's sort of a family tree that has the facts, but also has the sort of emotional processes. I recommended one book, it's called Genograms by Monica McGoldrick. It's the one that's sort of used when people take a family therapy class in grad school. But you know, you can come up with your own symbols. It doesn't have to be the same technique, but you know, if you're drawing conflict, drawing little lightning bolts, right? Or if there's cutoff, you draw a line and then another line that's perpendicular to show that gap, right? There's lots of different ways that you can do it, but it's sort of mapping the emotional history as well. Looking at the triangles, you know, drawing just a triangle between three people. And sort of looking at how that, but also the facts of the family, can kind of inform you as to how people act. Because I think that's useful to write down, you know, when do people die? What else was happening at the same time? When were people born? When did people get married? You know, did a bunch of people get married after the death of a parent? Like you see that a lot of times in families. Or are there missing relatives or branches of a family tree that are sort of just big question marks? There's something about being able to see that on paper drawn out that really just adds another layer of complexity to thinking about the family. And I think it's such a useful tool to have as a writer. And maybe if people are inspired they can do it with their own family. But you don't know what you don't know until you draw it out. And I think it's useful to see what facts are missing. You know, do you not know about people's careers, or their education level, or illnesses, or substance use issues, or where people lived, when they immigrated. Those are all useful facts to know.

KJ (28:45):

Right. And you can get a long way in fiction without knowing everything about your person. And you can also get a long way down a rabbit hole by trying to write out everything about the person. But you know, every time I create someone, and this is going to be more true for Sarina because she's done it more, it's amazing how much I need to be able to go back and go, okay, wait a minute. I mean, I can't even name them until I know who their parents are. So right away, you're thrown right into it.

Kathleen (29:27):

Absolutely. And I think, you know, you don't have to have all of the information for every character, but I think if a character is missing information about themselves, that's important too. That shapes who you are also. So it's not just what they know and what's available to them and what, you know, as the writer, it's what's unknown as well and how that influences people.

KJ (29:47):

Do you sometimes see authors sort of failing to take this stuff into account? Like are you reading along and you're like, wait a minute... You don't have to name names. I'm just curious.

Kathleen (29:58):

I think the example that Sarina gave about the crazy ex was such a good one, because I think what I see the most is just this incredible mish-mash and sort of lopsidedness of maturity and functioning, when we don't operate that way as humans. You see this a lot in literature, someone has a really terrible parent and then they're this just this angel, right? Like we paint things as heroes and villains. And it's much more complex than that. And so I think doing some of this thinking keeps you from falling into the trap of good person, bad person, victim, hero, villain, right? Not that there aren't terrible people, but I think it just adds so much more to the story when you're able to see the interaction between people and when you see the family as the unit and not just the individual. It helps you make people much more relatable, even if they're maybe not the greatest person in that story, but they're not just a straight up villain.

KJ (31:09):

Right. You have to know where all that stuff comes from.

Sarina (31:12):

I think my downfall is sort of the opposite way. Like I write really cerebral characters who can usually find the right way and then I turn on the news and I'm like, wow.

KJ (31:22):

Plus it's a problem because you don't want - and I do this all the time too - I'm like, and then they calmly and rationally resolved the problem. Because to some extent I guess you're writing what you would like to see happen, but it doesn't work. We need them to not calmly and rationally resolve the problem.

Kathleen (31:51):

Well I think the only other thing I would add, and you know I talk a lot about this in the book, is that I think it's important to remember that people do what they do to calm things down to the best of their ability. People aren't just randomly throwing in bombs to shake things up necessarily. And we know we've evolved that way for a reason, and it might seem very strange, or upsetting, or annoying to you, but if you can see it as sort of an adaptive thing that that person does to deal with things the best that they know how, I think it allows you to be a little bit more empathetic towards that character and add a little bit more to that character than to someone who's just dropping in to wreak havoc. They're actually doing what they have been programmed to do as a human to try and get through a challenge.

KJ (32:40):

It's just important that it be wrong.

Sarina (32:43):

Yeah. That sounds like a fun way to write a drama llama sibling.

Kathleen (32:47):

Yeah, absolutely. You know, how has this become a person's way of dealing with the chaos?

KJ (32:55):

There's gotta be a reason why they are the way that they are. Well that is so helpful. And it is a different way to think about it and also a chance to broaden and deepen what we're creating in our fiction. And I I don't think we should miss those. So this was really good. I like it. This is fun, and smart, and a great way to sort of create the dysfunctional family that you can manipulate as opposed to living in the dysfunctional family that you're kind of stuck with. Well, this is the part where we like to talk about the dysfunctional families that we're reading about, or functional, or whatever. And I forgot to warn you, but I know that you listen all the time, so hopefully you knew that we were going to ask you if you'd been reading anything good lately.

Kathleen (33:57):

Yeah, I actually have. Since my book has come out, I'm just letting myself read only romance because that is just like a gift to me and it's something I don't do a whole lot. So I've just really been enjoying reading tons of romance. And one that I've really enjoyed recently is Bringing Down the Duke by Evie Dunmore. I don't know if you guys have heard of that one. It's part of her series she's writing called A League of Extraordinary Women and it's about women revolved around the suffrage cause in the U.K. And so it's just a really fun, great romance. And I recommend it.

Sarina (34:33):

You know, I haven't read her yet, but that book is getting a lot of chatter among my friends, so it's definitely on my list.

KJ (34:39):

I too had heard it. I think I heard it probably on Book Riot, which is a source of many, many book recommendations for me. Do not listen to the Book Riot podcast unless you have a large budget of disposable income to just go and buy all the books because that's what happens to me every single time. How about you Sarina? You read anything good lately?

Sarina (35:04):

I have a brand new book I'm about to start called 19 Love Songs by David Levithan. And David Levithan is a wonderful YA author who I have read, you know, pretty much everything he's written and this is a special anthology coming out right now, which is Valentine's day-ish because he is so wonderful that he's written some extra stories so I can't wait for 19 Love Songs.

KJ (35:35):

I'm just looking through what I've been reading lately and I've been reading a lot, like I have big stacks and then of course the minute I get on the spot and I'm trying to figure out what it is that I read and what I enjoyed, I can't, so I'm in the middle of something that I love, but I'm going to wait and talk about it when I finish. And I'm going to tell you all if you have not heard about it, I'm going to give you a pair of fun, fun books that I read. One was Ex-Libras: Confessions of a Common Reader by Anne Fadiman and it's just a bunch of essays about reading. And the delight of that was that I had it on my Kindle and I went to dinner by myself and foolishly grabbed only one book off of the stack of books that I had by the bed. And then the other thing that just reminds me of it is a book, I don't think I've mentioned it before, it's called The Uncommon Reader. And it's a novella by Alan Bennett. And it is the story of what happens when the Queen of England begins to take a passionate interest in reading. And it is hysterical, and beautiful, and wonderful, and very short. So I recommend it. And that's it. I guess that's our show today.

Sarina (37:12):

KJ, are you going to give a book away?

KJ (37:15):

I am, yes. Right now. Right now. What I wanted to say to everyone, I'm helpfully holding this up to the microphone so I hope you can all see the adorable copy. We're going to give away a copy of Everything Isn't Terrible by Kathleen Smith and you can read it for your own life and conquer your own insecurities, and not interrupt your own anxiety, and finally calm down, or you can pretend that you only need it for fictional reasons and try to figure out ways to get your characters to conquer their insecurities. We're doing both and we would love to give this away. And what I thought we would do is we will pull a name from our list of subscribers to the show notes. So if you are on our subscribers, if you get the podcast in your email every week, you are already entered. And if you don't then you should go to amwritingpodcast.com and sign up to get the show notes every week. And they are more than shownotes. It's always what we thought of the episode, and all the links, and all the books, and usually some bonus lunacy just because none of us is capable of writing anything straight up anymore. So that's the idea. Sign up. Maybe you'll get to win the book. Alright. I want to thank you, Kathleen. This was great and this was really fun. Where can people find you on all the social media and in all the places?

Kathleen (38:40):

Yeah, the main place is my website, Kathleensmith.net. I write a weekly newsletter called The Anxious Overachiever about my own efforts on myself and my work with clients that people might be interested in. Or they can catch me on Twitter at fangirltherapy.

KJ (38:55):

And the book again is Everything Isn't Terrible: Conquer Your Insecurities, Interrupt Your Anxiety, and Finally Calm Down by Dr. Kathleen Smith. Grab it. It is fun. And like I said, we can all just pretend that we're buying it for purely fictional reasons. That's our show this week. Yay. Alright, you want to take us out, Sarina?

Sarina (39:18):

I will and thank you both. And until next week keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 200 #ShouldYouStartaPodcast Feb 28, 2020

It’s our 200th episode! In all that time, we’ve never missed a week and never regretted our choice to spend 40 minutes (ish) together—and with you. We love doing the podcast, so this week we thought we’d answer a few podcast-y questions we get a lot: should you start a podcast? Can a podcast help promote a book? Is there gold in them thare podcast hills?

We talk about all that and more—but here’s one thing you won’t find in the episode, in part because it seems so obvious now that we never think about it. The smartest thing we did, when we decided we were going for this podcast thing, was this:

We made it about writing.

That was not, back in 2016, an obvious choice. Jess had just written a best-selling book on parenting. I was the editor of the New York Times’ parenting section. Sarina wasn’t on board yet, and it was just the two of us. The obvious thing to create would have been a podcast about family life.

And we would be so, so sick of doing it by now. Or at least I would. (This is KJ writing.)

If you are going to start a podcast, either make it about something you love, and have always loved, and can reasonably figure you will continue to love—or make it so broad that it can encompass your changing interests and experiences. Very very few people really want to spend a lifetime talking about, just to offer a parenting example, breastfeeding. Some absolutely do, and if you are one of them, you know it. But for the rest of us, that’s an interest with an expiration date. Don’t start a podcast with an expiration date.

(Note—that’s advice with an asterisk. Some podcasts are meant to end. They follow a single story, or offer a series of interviews around a single topic, and that’s it. We talk more about that in the episode.)

To bookmark the best choice we made, I offer some of the worst advice I was ever offered, from a PR advisor who, reviewing my “platform” before the launch of How to Be a Happier Parent, put her finger on the podcast and said, that.

That doesn’t match.

That has to go.

I didn’t listen.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, if you like the podcast, and this not-even-IN the podcast email, please forward it to a friend and suggest that friend might want to take a listen.

And if you’re that friend and would like the backstory for the podcast to drop into your inbox every week, click here.

Finally—we could use your help for those next 200 episodes. If you love #AmWriting (and if you’ve read this far, you know you do), kick in if you can. Support us, and get a weekly #WriterTopFive full of actionable advice you can use, access to all the past #WriterTopFives and even the occasional mini podcast.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

The Tanya Eby #AmWriting episode

Magic Lessons, the Big Magic podcast

Dani Shapiro

Chasing Cosby: The Downfall of America’s Dad, Nicole Weisensee Egan

StoryBites Sarina’s podcast

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess: Epic, Sarina Bowen,

Audio from Pride and Prejudice

KJ: Bunny: A Novel, Mona Awad

Sarina:

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ (00:00):

It's episode 200! Hey fellow writers, it's KJ here at the beginning of episode 200 of #AmWriting. Alright, pat on the back for us. So I have to tell you, normally I write out my promos for our wonderful sponsor, Author Accelerator. So normally what you get is me reading something timely and happy about what Author Accelerator is doing at whatever moment of the week that we're doing our podcast. And I love doing that. But this week for episode 200, you're just getting my off the cuff, impromptu, completely drawn out of the air thoughts about why Author Accelerator is the right sponsor for us and how much I love them. If you need book coaching, if you want to be a book coach, Author Accelerator is undoubtedly the place to go. But even more than that, there is so much great stuff out there on their website. There's the stuff for creating an Inside Outline. And I tell you, I have finally nailed down the Inside Outline, I think. For mostly, oh, okay, I have, I have. For my work in progress, finally. But that is a process that has really helped me out. They've got a whole arc of emails that you can sign up for where you get five projects to work on for your novel. You know, why are you writing it, writing the back of the book copy, that stuff stays useful throughout the process. Author Accelerator has been a wonderful sponsor and they are really a wonderful source of everything you could (well, I mean, not everything, like they're not a source of agents and, okay, I have flaked off here) but they're great. If you have never checked them out, if you have blipped past this promo at every opportunity, this time, this week, maybe just click over and see what's over there because really it's worth it. Is it recording now?

Jess (02:31):

Now it's recording.

KJ (02:31):

Yay.

Jess (02:32):

Go ahead.

KJ (02:33):

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess (02:37):

Alright, let's start over.

KJ (02:38):

Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Now, one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. The podcast about writing so cleverly named so that you can probably figure that out. This is the podcast about writing anything and everything - long things, short things, fiction, nonfiction, essays, memoirs, proposals, pitches. This is the podcast for writers who are struggling, or succeeding, at getting their work done.

Jess (03:16):

I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and the forthcoming book, The Addiction Inoculation out in 2021 and you can find my work at jessicalahey.com.

Sarina (03:26):

I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 30-odd romance novels. My latest one is called Heartland, and I'm flogging another release in the spring called Sure Shot, which is kicking my butt right now.

Jess (03:38):

That's the first time I've heard you say the title. That's exciting. I love it. This is like, I get little bits of information sometimes when we podcast. I love that.

KJ (03:47):

I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of How To Be a Happier Parent as well as my debut novel, The Chicken Sisters coming out in June of 2020, the former editor of the New York Times' Motherlode blog, a contributor to multiple places, although not super recently.

Jess (04:14):

As you say that thing about not having submitted super recently. I've been having a bit of a crisis about that and maybe we'll talk about that.

KJ (04:21):

Maybe we should because that's definitely on my list.

Jess (04:26):

But this is a special episode.

KJ (04:27):

It's a very special episode.

Jess (04:28):

What is it, KJ?

KJ (04:29):

Well, everyone, this is the episode where we learned that Jess and I are secretly identical, separated at birth. No, no. It's a very special episode because it's our 200th episode.

Jess (04:46):

Yeah, this is the 200th episode. And I made cupcakes for the 100th episode, but that was when we lived close to each other and it was easier for me to transport cupcakes. Today, I'm actually traveling through town on my way out of town for a speaking engagement and we realized it gave us the ability to all be in the same room together, which is just more fun than Skyping, I have to say.

KJ (05:10):

It's so much more fun. It may sound a little different but it's got so much going for it.

Jess (05:16):

We're at the library, so it's a little echoey in here, but we're doing our best.

Sarina (05:19):

We have all of our matching notebook planners open on the table.

Jess (05:26):

Oh and we also have something super special I have to call out. So, KJ gave us some pretty cool presents recently. She gave us this beautiful Corksikle cup in bright yellow with a #AmWriting logo on it. And it's really special.

KJ (05:49):

I do have one and we could totally give it away in honor of our 200th episode. We totally could. We've done some giving away lately. So you know, somebody going to have to go to the post office at some point. So, alright. It'll be someone randomly drawn from the people who get our show notes. That's what we're going to do. So if you're on our show notes email by, let's call it a week after you hear these words, we'll draw a name. You could win a #AmWriting commemorative cup.

Jess (06:36):

200th episode. We have a lot of stuff to talk about today.

KJ (06:45):

We have a lot of stuff to talk about today.

Jess (06:47):

You've got your lips pursed, Sarina, like you have something that you would like to start with.

Sarina (06:51):

Do I? I thought we should talk about why a podcast?

Jess (06:55):

I think that's a great idea. Especially since, you know, you've been brought in somewhere between 100 and 200, partly because people love the episodes that you're on so much and it felt like you were spiritually a part of the podcast anyway. But KJ, why did we start this podcast in the first place? I started it mainly because I wanted to, and then you said we're doing this, but why a podcast?

KJ (07:20):

I think we started this podcast for what I think is a very good reason to start a podcast, which is that we wanted to spend an hour together once a week talking about this thing that we both do and love. So that was our primary goal. And because we, especially me, I listen to and love podcasts, love the format, and then it became a way to form a community around the podcast. So, we weren't looking to sell a book, we weren't looking to build an empire. When people talk to me about starting a podcast, I'm always like, you should do it if it's something you really, really, really want to do, if you think it's going to do something for you...

Jess (08:13):

If it's another task to add to your to do list, like 'Oh crap, I have to record podcast again today.' I don't think it's a good idea.

Sarina (08:21):

Well, you mentioned the community aspect of it and writing can be so very solitary. If you had a job where you spent your time literally in a crowded room full of other people, you might not lean towards doing a podcast about that. But it is so solitary and writers have always had to form their own groups in order to have somebody to talk to you. I mean, you could be lucky enough to have done this in Paris in 1920 or whatever, but you know, here we are at the library.

Jess (09:00):

Frankly that's what the salons often were, anyway, was talking about the writing. And it was a different era, but it's very much in the same spirit, which is get together and talk about what it's like to write, and how hard it is to write sometimes, and how great it is to write sometimes. And every single time, especially for me, I love getting notes about the podcast. I love getting notes about sort of things that have been particularly helpful to people, but in the #AmWriting Facebook group, especially recently, we've had a couple of people that have had successes. We've had a couple of people share what's been helpful for them. And that group, as an extension of this podcast is another huge reason (not only the only reason at this point that I stay on Facebook), but the reason that I feel like it's worth it. That there are writers supporting writers and frankly, I'm a hermit up where I live now and it's been hard. I had to move away from you two. And I don't have a lot of friends up there and there are days I don't leave my house. And so having a place to talk about this stuff is increasingly important for me. I know that was a downer. I sound like I'm sad, but partly it's in response to like, you know, today I have to go out for the next 48 hours and be extremely extroverted, and social, and on. And it's a huge relief to be able to be a hermit for a little while here and there, but if I didn't have this outlet to talk about the writing stuff, I don't know where I would get it.

KJ (10:33):

Well and I love that we really are like you just said, helping people to develop their own careers. I mean, we've done things, we have learned some stuff. I'm so proud of us. We have been together as a trio since before any of us had done anything of any particular writerly successful note. And I think that's awesome. And one of our upcoming guests, Kathleen Smith, the author of Everything Isn't Terrible (which is a title I love) wrote me and said that she started a weekly email sort of in preparation for her book. She has 10,000 people on her email now. And she said, I would never have started it if it hadn't been for you guys really pushing. That's where she started really, and here's how to do it, and here's what to do, and here's the mechanism.

Sarina (11:33):

Giving advice to other writers - for one thing, you always learn something when you're doing it. I don't really critique a lot of other people's fiction, but sometimes I do. And there's always this moment of terror if you read it and you don't instantly fall in love and it's not perfect, you know, which is pretty much everything ever. And I have this moment of fear like, 'Oh my God, what am I going to say? This needs work. Holy cow.' And then you sort of relax into it and you find the moment where you find the heat and you figure out, 'Oh, here, this is what it's really about. This is the strong thing.' And when I say this, this person is going to realize that this is the focus point. And also, every single time I close, whatever it is, when I'm done, I walk away and I immediately realize how I've made one of those exact same mistakes in my own work. So when we come together and we discuss how to do a thing, that's never just me telling, it's always me thinking deeply about oh right.

KJ (12:39):

People come into the Facebook group and they say things that they have learned or they send us an email and they say things that they have learned and it's amazing. And we get to invite people that we admire, and respect, and would love to talk to, to come and talk to us about writing. And that is a huge, huge buzz.

Jess (13:02):

I think one of the things that's been really helpful for me is having this podcast on my brain all the time. So like Sarina said, instead of just reading and saying something like, 'Oh, I hate this', I read something and I say, 'Why don't I like this?' So for example, yesterday I was reading a book that I have in hard copy and I have an audio. And I'd started it in hard copy and it was fine. It was okay. And then I was listening to it in audio yesterday and had to shut it off. And I realized what was happening was the author (and I don't know if it was just because I got halfway through and the author turned in this direction or because it was the author's actual voice on audio) became extremely preachy. She became 'I am the expert. You will do what I say you, I know more than you. I am going to tell you how to do things.' And I realized for me it was an incredibly important moment realizing not just that I didn't like it and it wasn't that I didn't like her, it was that I didn't like the style with which she was delivering what could otherwise be really useful information. And so I backed up and I said, 'If I wasn't listening to this voice that I have come to find annoying and a tone I was coming to find annoying, would this information had been helpful to me?' And I realized, yeah, actually this is really interesting information. So that's important takeaway for me. It's that dissection process that we talk about a lot. And since starting the podcast I think I have become a lot more analytical and critical, not critical, but thoughtful about why I don't like something and why I do like something and what makes something really come alive for me and what makes something fall flat. And I think for my writing, selfishly, I think that's really important. I know very specifically now when I do my audio for this next book what landmine to avoid very specifically is don't be preachy or don't use that tone that turned me off.

KJ (14:59):

So I feel like one of the questions that we get as podcasters is, 'Oh, I like podcasts. Should I start a podcast?'

Jess (15:08):

Or, 'I have a book coming out. Should I start a podcast? Will that help me sell my book?'

Sarina (15:15):

And we have listeners who are probably thinking about this. So we should address them.

KJ (15:19):

And then the first thing to say is 'No, there are not too many podcasts in the world. Go for it. There will be podcasts that are started tomorrow that will turn into huge podcasts. You can't start it any sooner. If you really want to do this, do it and don't let us talk you out of it. If we can't talk you out of it, then you probably really want to do it.' But if you're saying to yourself, 'I have a book coming out, I hear that these things called podcasts are good.' This person's probably not listening to us because our listeners love podcasts. But you know, if it's not a format that you love, and adore, and really want to contribute to, I would say you're probably not going to be very successful at it.

Jess (15:58):

No, I completely agree., I would hate doing this if it was a chore as opposed to something that I love. And I think that would come across. I think that the good feedback we get tends to circle around - it's clear that you just enjoy talking to each other.

KJ (16:12):

You know, it's not a money maker.

Jess (16:18):

It's not a moneymaker, says the woman who ran the numbers and realized we had some $10,000 in during our first hundred 150 episodes.

KJ (16:25):

Yeah. But thank you to our sponsor. Thank you to our sponsor, Author Accelerator. Thank you to our supporters. We are totally breaking even now, if you don't count the time that we put into it, but we do it for a lot of reasons.

Jess (16:43):

That's funny you say that because we got a note from or a post, I can't remember, from someone saying that this week's writer top five email was worth the cost of supporting the podcast.

KJ (16:57):

It was a good one.

Jess (16:58):

It was great because this week's writer top fives is about things to flag in your writer contract and your publishing contracts that are really essential that can really result in some big problems if you ignore them.

Sarina (17:13):

And we talk about the grant of rights, and the option clause, and things like that that you need a name for and a vocabulary for.

Jess (17:22):

That's when things really start to blow my mind when I start to think about where I was seven years ago and how much I didn't know and how much I continue to learn about. And I was thinking about this because the London book fair is coming up in March and I would love to be a fly on the wall there because one of the big purposes of the London book fair is foreign rights. And foreign rights still feels to me like one of those things I'm only starting to understand. And so I'm actually kind of looking forward to learning more about foreign rights so that we could actually talk about this in some kind of intelligible, reasonable way at some point in the future. But it's amazing to me that we're at a point where Sarina is talking about these rights, that it's really important to preserve and why they're important to preserve. Because that was stuff I knew nothing about seven years ago.

KJ (18:19):

Well. So one of the things (as podcasts) that we're seeing is people starting podcasts in support of frequently bestselling books or books that they are hoping is going to be a bestseller. And we are seeing content creation companies seeking out authors and saying, so, you know, Elizabeth Gilbert did not say, 'Gee, I think I would like to make a podcast.' and then make a podcast. I don't remember what company supported that, but it was a company that supported it. Dani Shapiro, who's doing her podcast right now.

Jess (18:50):

I love family secrets.

KJ (18:52):

Same thing. I don't know where it started, I don't know Dani Shapiro, but a content creating company wanted that. I have another friend who has a book coming out who tried really hard to create something around that and worked with a content creation company, and came up with sample episodes, and came up with something, and is now at the point where - it costs so much to produce what they wanted to produce that they can't get anyone to produce it because it was interview-based. But if the book becomes a bestseller, then they have got this that they're sitting on. So we are seeing our peers sort of creating these either limited run podcasts or it's almost like a different format.

Jess (19:45):

I mean I think it's interesting to me that currently one of the podcasts I'm listening to is Chasing Cosby, which is basically is the book in podcast form. But I don't care, because it's a completely different thing for me. The book, I liked, it's about Bill Cosby and the trial and this one particular woman, her last name is Isensee who writes for the Los Angeles Times and was the one who reported this thing. And now the podcast is interviews with the actual people. You can hear the audio from phone calls. It's a very different experience.

KJ (20:21):

Isn't that basically what the audio book of Malcolm Gladwell's latest book was?

Jess (20:25):

So Malcolm Gladwell did something really different, which was really interesting. I don't happen to be a fan of this particular book, this particular podcast. Instead of just reading the book out loud, he turned it into a podcast format and included excerpts from interviews and things like that. And Chasing Cosby isn't just the book, but the fact that it's a compelling story. I'm all in, even though I already read the book, I'm okay with the fact that I already kind of know some of this information. I like it in this new format.

Sarina (20:57):

So we're seeing a lot of play with the medium and audio versus podcasting versus writing. But I just want to point out that to me, starting a podcast to support your book is not magic. Because to me, it almost feels like you have a double discoverability problem. Well, when anyone publishes a book in any method, you need discoverability for your book. And that is accomplished in all the ways that we talk about every week, right? You could advertise, the algorithms help you, you can have a newsletter, et cetera, et cetera. All that stuff we obsess about all the time. So podcasting, on the one hand is a way to find people interested in your topic in a different spot. But, it's not magic. Like, if we started tomorrow, a brand new podcast, we would be starting from zero and we would have to go find that audience. So if you have this book that's coming out and you're asking yourself, what can I do? I'm not sure that the right answer is always start a podcast and then go try to find listeners for it. At the same time when I'm trying to find people to buy my book.

Jess (22:10):

Especially if it's a very obscure topic, because then you're really having to work against the fact that people are like, well, I'm not really interested in learning about whatever the topic might be.

Sarina (22:23):

Well, we could spend a minute talking about my podcast failure, I guess

KJ (22:32):

It wasn't a failure, you just chose not to continue it. And I think for a very good reason, the number of podcasts that were started and has been chosen not to continue is long. And actually includes Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic, which I think they conceived of as a limited run, but I think that they were maybe thinking about doing it again. I'm just thinking it was like a lot of work for her to find these people. If anybody's listened to it, she finds creative people and they interview, they're terrific. But that was like a whole 'nother job. It's possible Elizabeth Gilbert thought, 'You know, I'd like to just stick to my primary job, which is writing.' And I feel like that's more where you were.

Sarina (23:15):

Yeah, so the idea was started for the right reasons, which is that I wanted to spend an hour a week talking to Tanya about audio books.

KJ (23:23):

That's Tanya Eby, who's been a guest on this podcast.

Sarina (23:26):

That's right. So Tanya Eby is an award-winning narrator of like 800 audio books. And she and I also did some writing together. So we were sort of looking at the market for audio books and we just love it. So we had a brand new format, which is that we would play first chapter of an audio book that was new. And then she and I would discuss what we found in there, like what was the style of the narration, and how did it support the story, and what did the chapter do for us in terms of readers and listeners. And it was really fun. We had it professionally produced. So each episode cost us about $70, let's just say. And we did about four to five episodes a month. We launched on Thursdays. And because the market for audio books is growing at double digits a year, the market seemed obvious to me. There were a lot of people interested in fiction in audio, and the podcast world is also big. So we launched this thing and we pulled in from our reader audiences a bunch of listeners, and our numbers went up a little bit every week. And it was all good, right? Except it costs money to produce, it costs time to produce. And the numbers just weren't where I wanted them to be. We were making, I don't know, 700 to a thousand people happy every week with their listen. But the growth rate just wasn't satisfying. And I felt I'm spending so much energy trying to give this wonderful thing away for free and I should be spending that energy writing my next book instead. And because the economics don't stress me out for writing another book and they stress me out a little bit for the podcast. And so eventually we let it go after we made you know, nine months worth of episodes and it was a good time. And I liked spending the time on it. But discoverability was a problem.

KJ (25:30):

Yeah. And it's hard. I mean there are a lot of podcasts. It is hard to get any form of traction. So if the goal is getting attention, like you said, you're gonna have the same problem with the podcast that you do with your book.

Sarina (25:51):

Right. It's also quite difficult to measure what people are taking away from podcasts.

KJ (25:58):

It's really hard to measure analytics. It's hard for me to measure our analytics. You would think it would be super obvious, but for various reasons having to do with all the different ways that people get their podcasts, and what Apple wants to tell us, and what Google wants to tell us, and the fact that for some reason some podcast players are pulling from Audio Boom and some of them are pulling from SubStack. And this is all very technical. I can't even tell you how many people are listening to us every week. But how many is really challenging.

Jess (26:37):

On that note, my brain suddenly went to Oh my gosh, I'm paralyzed now. How many people are listening to us? I often have to do this where I just sort of assume it's the three of us talking together.

Sarina (26:52):

Well, I have to say one time I was listening to a podcast that you guys had recorded in my car with my now 14 year old, but he was maybe 11 at the time, and you guys were speaking and we were listening and then the episode ended with the lovely music and I shut it off and my child turned to me and said, 'Do they have other listeners besides you?'.

Jess (27:48):

What's been fun recently is I figured out (this is a sort of a tangent), but I realized if you go to, for example, iTunes and you're looking at podcasts, some podcasts will list their guests. And iTunes seems to link - I was looking at either Tim Ferriss or the Rich Roll podcast and I went into the podcast episode itself, and the guest was linked and suddenly I could click on the guest and it showed me all the podcasts that that person has been on. And that was really, really interesting.

KJ (28:19):

That makes me wonder if I need to go back and do something.That makes me wonder if you've just created more work for me.

Jess (28:26):

Well, since I created it then maybe it has to be my job. That's also been really interesting, sort of this outgrowth of figuring out who's going to do what. Especially when Sarina came on board, especially when we added the weekly top fives, because you know, I just want to be sure the work is evenly distributed. And having three of us has been nice because then we can sort of make sure that it's all getting done.

KJ (28:51):

So before we go on to what we're reading, let me just throw out there, listeners, if you do love the podcast, if you do want to support us, it'd be great for you to support us via the whole support thing. But pop over and leave a review on iTunes, or even better tell someone, tell a friend that you know is a writer to check us out and go and listen to the podcast. We don't do anything to spread the word about the podcast. Other than that we tweet it when we have it every week and we put it on our various social media. So we don't advertise it or do anything along those lines. But we'd love to have more listeners. So if you can find us some, that's great. And of course, you can absolutely support us by going to amwritingpodcast.com and clicking on the support button or just subscribe to the weekly show notes so you can get us riffing on our various episodes. And that's great, too. Oh, and plus then you'll be entered to win the commemorative #AmWriting travel mug.

Jess (30:03):

Also check out the #AmWriting Facebook page. The fun thing there is that we do we keep an eye on what's being posted there, so that it's really a supportive place and there is no mean stuff going on there and there's not any excessive self-promotion.

KJ (30:20):

If you have a question you put up there and people can answer. But we also might do a whole podcast around it. That's totally been more than once that we've done that.

Jess (30:29):

Yeah, we get great questions from there because that's the real stuff people are dealing with. The real stuff that gets people stuck. The nice thing is it's becoming this self perpetuating answer machine because now if we've ever podcast about something, or if someone has expertise in a particular area, when someone in the group asks the question, suddenly there's 40 comments offering really great answers. Can I bring up really, really quickly - I have a quick question for Sarina and she can be very helpful to me in answering this question. So Sarina, you have a new short story that is out and I want to talk about, I'm really curious actually why you choose to do either the shorter pieces that you had a novella and what those do for you and how that's different for you in promotion and marketing than a novel. I like to watch you as you roll things out and this is a new thing that is really interesting to me.

Sarina (31:29):

Well, the item that you're thinking about this week is called Epic. And that's part of a co-written series with my collaborator Elle Kennedy.

Jess (31:39):

From the Him and Us series. And it's short. I love how you call it. It's book 2.5 of the Him and Us series.

Sarina (31:48):

Well, so all of this is a little bit tricky because we wrote a short thing because we didn't want to write a third book about the same couple.

Jess (31:57):

Even though we love them, their nickname is Westmead.

Sarina (32:00):

This is the problem is that sometimes the book you need to write is not the book that your audience wants. And if I did write a book three about Westmead, there would be a bunch of people that wouldn't want to read about them being sad.

Jess (32:14):

Well, that's the thing. So you're telling me that just because there's market demand for a particular book that maybe the author shouldn't write it.

Sarina (32:22):

Sometimes the author is tired. But we wrote this short item and we put it in a free holiday anthology. And the goal there was just exposure and new readers. So that's fun, but with low expectations. And then I thought, you know, short audio is finding a spot and I thought we could produce it for not very much money, even though we have amazing fabulous narrators.

Jess (32:47):

You have the narrators from the original two books and they're wonderful.

Sarina (32:49):

Right. And we pay them full price but it's a short piece, right? So it just couldn't cost that much. And I had some new ways of potentially marketing that, but then we asked one of our agents to just show it to Audible and Audible ended up buying it.

Jess (33:07):

That's really exciting.

Sarina (33:08):

So then that part was out of our hands and you know, it's nice when Audible buys a thing because then you don't have to produce it.

Jess (33:15):

Do you think they bought it because they looked at the sales from Him and Us and said, 'Oh wowzers.'

Sarina (33:21):

Those two books actually performed very, very well for Audible studios, who created those audio books. After it came out of that free anthology, just publishing it as a 99 cent ebook, and a slim little paperback for fun, for the super fans who wanted that third thing in print.

Jess (33:43):

It's not only fun because it's those two characters that people have come to love, but a lot of the other characters that people really love show up in there. Like Blake shows up, and there's jokes about Blake and his fear of sheep, and it's really fun to get a little dose of all that.

Sarina (33:57):

Well, the other thing I had fun with is this slim little paperback. When you're doing something that's really just for joy, you you have more license there. So I put in all the foreign covers that these books have gotten, like there's pages for what does the book look like in German, what does it look like in Italian, just for giggles. And also there's a line at the end of chapter one of the first book - My weakness is him. - and I put every translation in there. So that was just a little fun thing. It is not a moneymaker and that's just the way it is.

Jess (34:35):

But the fun things are why we do this and every once in a while it's important to have that as a touch point and it made me really happy, I have to say. In fact, I read it out loud, I read the original story out loud in the car to my husband because the main point of tension in the short story is so well done. And my husband, he adores you, he could care less about this story, about Westmead. But I read the story to him in the car and he thought it was delightful. I didn't read the racy bits.

Sarina (35:10):

There aren't really racy bits, but okay.

Jess (35:13):

Anyway, thank you for mentioning that. Mainly because I'm just fascinated when you go off and do something that seems a little scary and different and it's inspiring to me. So anyway.

Sarina (35:22):

Well thank you.

Jess (35:23):

What do you want to talk about that you've been reading?

KJ (35:28):

I read something really weird and kind of a departure for me, but definitely a fun book. It's called Bunny and the author is Mona Awad. And the cover is amazing; it's like a pink graffitied bunny and it is this very strange story of a creative writing master's program and the people within it, who also have a strange power that involves bunnies and it's strange. I just can't, everything would be a spoiler. Other than to say that a dark comedy is putting it lightly. It's pretty, pretty heavy on the dark, but also definitely, definitely funny, and worth the look, especially if you like books about graduate programs. If that's one of your tropes (and it is absolutely one of mine, sort of university life) this is a totally different twist on it.

Jess (36:37):

Okay. Alright. I'm actually reading a book that I can't talk about because I'm reviewing it, but I am so excited to be able to tell you about it because it's so fantastic. But this week for me, I'm having trouble finishing my edits. I'm at that place where they're almost done and I left the hardest ones to the end. So every one is painful, mainly because every single time I have to do an edit, I have to get back in the headspace of the chapter where the edit exists. Because I keep having this impulse to say things that I've actually already said in the chapter. I repeat myself. It's hard to get in that head space. So for me, this week has been so much about comfort listens. So not only did I listen to Epic of Sarina's, I actually went back into my Audible library and just redownloaded all of my Jane Austen, honestly. This week I relistened to Sense and Sensibility. Juliet Stevenson, the actress, has done a couple of Jane Austen's including Mansfield Park and Sense and Sensibility and she's great reader. But Rosamund Pike, an actress that I really, really like who was in Pride and Prejudice. She plays Jane the eldest sister. She reads Pride and Prejudice on Audible and she's fantastic. And then I realized as a spin off to that, that I think I'm going to go buy Howard's End by Ian Forrester cause that's also one of my favorites. And I haven't listened to in a long time. So this is a comfort listen kind of week for me. It's been a stressful and just difficult week, in terms of the work. The work has been hard and so I want the listening and the reading to be easy. Sarina's got a lot of nodding going on because Sarina's been working hard writing this week and not reading a lot, right?

Sarina (38:31):

That's right.

Jess (38:36):

Happy 200, everybody. I'm so happy you joined us, Sarina. It wasn't quite complete without you.

KJ (38:54):

Alright, well here's to another hundred.

Jess (38:56):

Here's to another hundred. And I promise I'll make cupcakes. Until next week, everyone. Keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 199 #HowtoLovePromotingYourWork Feb 21, 2020

Our guest today, Dan Blank, sure seems like a man who loves his work. On his own podcast, the Creative Shift, he’s a warm and engaged interviewer. In his emails, he’s genuine and engaged. Is he selling his book and his services as an advisor to authors developing their platform and launching their work into the world? Sure, but it never feels like he’s selling. It feels like he’s sharing.

Wouldn’t we all like to feel like that, and have our readers see us that way?

We were hoping Dan would share his magic sauce and we’d all go skipping off towards easy street down a rainbow path, but it turns out there’s some work involved here. So instead, we talked about process, from the way you manage your personal trolls to the way you manage your emails, and then we talked—buzzword alert—authenticity, and finding the things you genuinely want to share with the people who are a match for your work. (You can download Dan’s free guide, 5 Ways to Immediately Connect with Readers, here.)

Episode links and a transcript follow, and that’s it for shownotes, because man has it been a couple of weeks. It’s been February for at least a year, right? And I thought January felt long. A few things you can do to help us out or get more #AmWriting:

* Review us in your podcast app.

* Join the #AmWriting Facebook Group

* Support us with a little cash, and get periodic #SupporterMini episodes (next week: #OutlineShortcut) and weekly #WritersTopFives every Monday that isn’t an unexpected school holiday that kicks my ass. FanFaves include Top Five Details to Flag in Your Publishing Contract and Top Five Ways to Win at Newsletter Subject Lines.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

KJ:

Such a Fun Age, Kiley Reid

How Could She: A Novel, Lauren Mechling

Red, White, & Royal Blue: A Novel, Casey McQuiston

Sarina:

The Starless Sea: A Novel, Erin Morgenstern

Dan:

Churchill: Walking with Destiny by Andrew Roberts

Bonus: Clementine, The Life of Mrs. Winston Churchill

Our guest for this episode is Dan Blank, and you can find more about him at We Grow Media.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ (00:00):

Hey listeners, KJ here, if you're in with us every week, you're what I like to call people of the book. And some of us book people discover somewhere along the way that not only are we writers, we're people with a gift for encouraging other writers. Maybe that comes out in small ways for you, but for some of you, it's a calling and an opportunity to build a career doing work you love. Our sponsor, Author Accelerator provides book coaching to authors (like me) but also needs and trains book coaches. And if that's got your ears perked up, head to authoraccelerator.com and click on become a book coach. Is it recording?

Jess (00:41):

Now it's recording.

KJ (00:43):

Yay.

Jess (00:43):

Go ahead.

KJ (00:44):

This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess (00:48):

Alright, let's start over.

KJ (00:48):

Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Now, one, two, three. I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is our podcast about writing all the things - fiction, nonfiction, essays, book proposals, all the things that I list every week because this is the podcast about sitting down and getting your writing work, whatever that is, done.

Sarina (01:20):

And I'm Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of 30-odd romance novels and my new one is called Heartland. You can find more about me at sarinabowen.com.

KJ (01:31):

I'm excited for Heartland. I was just crawling all over your website today for no apparent reason. Anyway, I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of The Chicken Sisters, a novel coming out in June of 2020, as well as How To Be a Happier Parent, which is out in hardback now and in paperback this summer. And I am excited to say that we have a guest today. So let me just introduce him. Our guest is Dan Blank. He's so many things that I don't know what to put first, so don't judge me by how I rank these. But he is the host of The Creative Shift podcast, the author of Be the Gateway: A Practical Guide to Sharing Your Creative Work and Engaging an Audience, the creator and wunderkind behind the We Grow Media Organization, and a man with a true passion for what he likes to call a human centered approach to reaching your audience. And I would have to say that Dan has a human centered approach to everything. So, welcome Dan.

Dan (02:32):

Thank you for the lovely introduction. I appreciate that.

KJ (02:36):

You're welcome. A couple of weeks to go. We recorded an episode on what we do all day and you don't have to convince either of us that the most important thing that we do is create. But we both struggle to put that first sometimes because of all the other stuff that feels pressing. And all that other stuff is mostly about marketing, and promoting ourselves and our work, and getting it out in the world and communicating with our editors or agents or audio book recorders or cover designers - just so much stuff. So we are hoping to have kind of a two-part conversation with you: if getting the work out in the world is the second most important thing, how do we do that better and smarter instead of just chasing shiny new opportunities and how can we get it done? And full disclosure here, before I stop talking, I think that you love connecting your work with people or at least it feels that way to me. And Sarina and I both would like to feel that way. So I have dubbed this #HowToLovePromotingYourWork. And that's not a challenge or anything. I did not ask you a question. How can we start? What should be my first question?

Dan (03:59):

To me, it always starts with clarity. And I totally agree with you, that for a writer it begins with their craft. It begins with what they create, why they create it, and of course their ability to do so. And then from that, it's about the idea of connecting it with people. I find that a lot of people absolutely do what you say, they struggle to create because of all the other important things in life. And sometimes it is distracting. Like going on a co-host website for no reason and just spending time there, which I do all the time. But a lot of times it's critically important things like kids, and job, and to feeding your family, and that sort of thing. So when I think of the idea of productivity and getting writing done, a lot of what I think about is that battle for clarity. Of knowing what is the most important thing, and knowing it in your bones, and having made decisions around it. And I think if you don't have that first, then it's very difficult to start weighing things in your day. Of like, well I should volunteer for that, I should do this, maybe let me just check that out, and someone told me about that book let me check that out, or let me get back to email. So the place I like to start is talking about clarity, but I'm not sure if that's starting too far back for you.

Sarina (05:23):

I would love to jump in and tell you that you're already saying some things to me that really resonate. Because my relationship to productivity and to my clarity of purpose has changed so much over the last five years and not in a healthy way. And I'm sort of struggling to go back to where I was. Well, I started writing romance novels out of frustration about five years ago, because the things that I had been working on were not working, not finding a market. And so I wrote the first couple just out of joy and just for fun. And I accidentally became a romance novelist because the moment that my first romance came out, then I found success. So everything started to work for me. But the problem is now that my relationship to that work has changed so much because of reader expectations. And now my inbox is full of people who want things from me. Whereas, when I first started writing these stories, they were just for me. I mean, I had the hope that somebody would read them, but now I literally get messages every day from people who are demanding that I do a particular thing next. And it's really messed me up a little bit. You know, when I sit down in front of my computer in the morning now, I have all those voices in my head and they want certain things to happen in my fictional worlds and they want certain books next. But I'm on deadline on this other one. And you know, cry me a river, right? Because I have an engaged audience, but sometimes it's too loud.

Dan (07:19):

Yeah. I mean, KJ knows this about me. I work in a small studio here in New Jersey and on one of the walls is nothing but photos of artists, and writers, and musicians who inspire me. And I pick photos of them when they are either very young, before they've had success, or when they're sort of in that moment of risk. And I stare at them all day. And you talking about that thing that a lot of people have, which is I don't want to write to an audience, but I want to feel that my life is filled with an audience. And how to navigate that is a tricky thing. And as I look at that wall right now, I think of how all of these other creators had to deal with that, too. You come out with a successful album, or painting, or show, or performance, or book and you're immediately thrilled at the success and then saddled with that success. And you're also talking about not just in your head, you're talking about, it's like infiltrating your day through email, and probably through private messages, and things like that.

Sarina (08:20):

Yeah.

Dan (08:24):

Now we will get to the crying. I mean the first thing I think about that, is the ability to compartmentalize it. And sometimes that is a system you create. So you have a virtual assistant who is actually in your inbox and moves things to different places so that you're not always confronting them at a bad moment. That's one way to do it. Another way to do it is to sort of reframe feedback from readers almost in a community marketing role. So you're expecting this. And the way I like to think about that is to have a process. Because if we think about anyone, JK Rowling, anyone who has a big fan base, and all day long fans come up and tell them about their life there's a real emotional baggage to that. Let alone if they're saying, why don't you do this, why don't you do that? If it's reframed as this is a marketing role, this is a reader connection role, this is a me being there for people role. In a background way that might be a way to compartmentalize it in your mind, but then the service that you're doing of engaging with them, it's a whole different thing. You have a process by which to process that. And again, I think KJ knows this from from my work, but I have this little thing I call creativity cave trolls and it's basically anything that distracts you, takes you off of your clarity. And I imagine that this is one of those cave trolls for you. And the whole concept behind it is not that you want to kill the troll, the troll will always be there. It's sort of this dumb, lumbering thing that will always be a part of your life. And the way that you manage that is that you build a system to manage it. You're always going to get these emails so let's plan for those emails and let's find a way to process them. Again, it could be hiring someone, it could be flagging them in your inbox, and you deal with them only on Mondays from 4:00 to 8:00 PM. Or you have a script that you use, something where if you know they're going to come and take you off track, we find a way to process them. And then hopefully that would give you more mind space to create and then fewer things to take you way off the rails.

KJ (10:40):

And I think that we all struggle with that inbox full of demand. Whether it's reader demand, like Sarina gets, or editor demand, or school volunteer demand, or just all the things. My inbox right now is full of direct messages from social media and many of them there were, 'Yeah, I sure I would love to be on your podcast, actually.' But they all require sort of a processing time that is very real and that's so annoying. Why can I not just process them in the amount of time that it takes to read them? That's a little crazy, but it's just like, why does it take me 40 minutes to crank through three emails?

Dan (11:35):

Can I really dig into email? Is that okay? Cause I'm so passionate about this. Okay, so I know this is another thing KJ and I've talked about in the past, which is my philosophy that your inbox is not a to do list. And the problem I think a lot of people have with email is they ask for it to do too many things. And it's one channel. So a number of ways to even think about what you just said. And that's to: one, turn off the notifications. If they're going to go to Instagram, or going to go to Twitter, let them go to Instagram and Twitter. Don't also have them pop into email because then that's a bottleneck for everything. Another way to kind of lighten the load is to think about having different inboxes for different purposes. So one thing that I do is I have almost every newsletter that I get (and I get a ton of newsletters cause I kind of study them) I have an email inbox (a Gmail account) just for newsletters. So the email that I use every day gets almost no newsletters. And I unsubscribe from everything. You know, if I buy something from Guitar Center and they accidentally put me on their newsletter list, I actively unsubscribe from things, I actively route things to different inboxes. And the idea is the fewer things I have to even look at and sort through, the more clarity I have to manage the things that are there. So that's sort of the first thing I would say with email and the second thing is, again to sort of have a process to process the inbox. So I'm one of those really, really, really annoying people who's basically always at inbox zero. And that's because I'm always offloading things from email. So the super quick version of what I do is I don't consider my inbox my inbox. I use Apple mail and they have like a flag folder and Gmail has a star folder. So right then and there when I open up email and they all pop in in the morning, I don't really read them, I flag emails that I have to look at. So everything I don't flag just goes into the endless archive. I don't worry about deleting them, I don't move them into folders and pretend that I'm like a librarian of my inbox cause that takes a lot of time and decision making power. Then I just go to my flagged folder and there are just the 16 emails I flagged let's say that day. And from what I do then is I try to process what I can quickly. Like if I can just do a one word or a one line reply back, I do that. And for anything more, if it's client saying, 'Oh, can we do it out here and I'm gonna add this to our agenda', I move it out of email, I put it in the folder I have for that client. I move it into another working process, I don't keep it in the inbox. And for things I can't process right away either I leave it in there until later in the day or I email that person and say, 'Thanks, I'm going to get back to you within 48 hours on this.' So I always take action on it and where I can't take action, I at least set an expectation that I see you and you will hear back from me at a certain time. And that sort of has worked wonders for my inbox. It's been a very long time since I've ever worried about email because that system works for me. So I typically end the day with a totally empty flags folder.

Sarina (15:05):

Huh. I love how analytical that is because it seems like maybe I could manage that as I'm analytical about most everything, but I also hear you sort of saying that I should just get over my anger at some of the things that people email me.

Dan (15:24):

Yeah, I mean I think that there's such a power, there's such an energy that it takes and I like the idea of how do we flip that? How do we have a script that we can send to these people? How do we have a thing in your website that says how you deal with it?

Sarina (15:39):

Oh, I have the thing, it's just that people don't pay attention. It says in beautiful pink letters right above my contact form. Like, 'Due to the volume of questions Sarina cannot respond to questions about publication plans, audio plans, paperback dates, et cetera. Between the newsletter and upcoming releases we have you covered. Thank you for understanding.' And every day I get an email that just says, when is the audio book coming out? Or something like that. But it's partly this, I've had to cross this little personal rubicon where pretty much before last year I really believed that everyone who reached out to me with a question deserved an answer, and promptly. Because that person's about to throw down $15 for my audio book. And then I just had to come to a place of, 'Well, I won't ever produce another thing again if I'm always answering that question.'

KJ (16:38):

It's not a bad problem to have.

Sarina (16:41):

I saw it as a problem.

KJ (16:42):

I know you do.

Sarina (16:44):

Well, I actually don't respond anymore to that particular question and I definitely do not respond anymore to, 'Is there ever going to be another book about so-and-so?' Because, like I've said, I've reached this place where I can't actually reply to everything or I won't finish the writing goal of the day, but it feels bad not to tell that invested person that I can't answer your email. Except it says right over the contact form basically click here to see all the public plans. Like, if you're curious about a thing, here is the page for that. So yeah, I'm a little stuck.

KJ (17:38):

I know you have a virtual assistant, they could just weed those for you and have a canned response that says what the pink letters say, only friendly, not that pink letters aren't friendly. And then you would know like, okay those people all got an answer that basically said nothing, but I didn't have to do it. When I was getting my New York Times emails, I had somebody do that for some of the years, depending on the years, just, you know, volume of submissions, blah blah blah. Because I did feel like everyone deserved at least a basically automated response. It's hard, cause arguably everyone doesn't deserve a response. It's sort of like the social media direct messages for me. And that's an interesting one, Dan. Cause I don't actually ever go on this particular platform, but I have such a large following there that I don't want to shut it down. That's why the Twitter dm's come and my assistant handles most of them, but these were all things she couldn't handle. Somebody who was cleaning it out, but I don't know. I mean you've probably thought of that and there may be reasons that you haven't done it, or haven't done it yet.

Sarina (18:55):

Well, I have somebody on some of these platforms. But of course Facebook makes it difficult.

KJ (19:04):

Yeah, Facebook won't let you.

Sarina (19:05):

Yeah. Like if I share with my Canadian assistant, my login, then Facebook will flag me as not a real human.

KJ (19:16):

Really, Facebook messages are like the bane of my...that should have an audit. You should be able to have an automated response that basically says, 'I don't do Facebook messages.' or you should be able to turn it off.

Sarina (19:28):

Well, Instagram is actually even worse because they pile all of the actual messages in with so-and-so reacted to your story or whatever.

KJ (19:38):

Yes, that's a new thing that people can like make a little clapping sound under your story, which is fine. That's delightful, clap for my story. But now it's in my dm's and yeah.

Sarina (19:49):

Well, at the risk that I've just spent the last 10 minutes sounding like a horrible human who doesn't like having invested readers, I did listen to your podcast, Dan, when you were helping someone who was a nonfiction author, develop a more authentic relationship with her Facebook following and she was, I believe, a client of yours. And her topic was something very accessible, but also sort of serious, which was divorced, I believe. And you said the word authentic enough times when I was listening to it that I thought, 'Okay, okay.' So this is another lesson I need to take from you. And basically after I listened to that episode, I cut out a bunch of the things I was doing on social media that didn't feel authentic to me. And I basically came home and I wrote a list of when do I feel the most authentic in my social media communication. And then I just hammer that list lately. Like those are the things we're doing now because I feel the best about them. And I was left wanting to hear how that might change when you're dealing with people who write fiction though, because obviously somebody who counsels others who are going through a divorce has a very one-to-one relationship with helping that person. And since all marketing is sort of problem solving, but the problem I'm solving for you is just that you have something to read this weekend and you didn't before, so it's a more tenuous relationship with that follower. And I just wondered - you must have thought of this and I was curious about it.

Dan (21:46):

Yeah, I was thinking of this and I think it was maybe in Jennie Nash's newsletter this morning. She referenced like a Harry Potter podcast whose tagline was something like, 'We don't read for escape, we read to become more human or to more fully, you know, be a part of life.' And whenever I think of like a novelist, or even a memoir writer, I think of that. Which is, to me, it's not just about escape, it's about connecting to something within someone, a worldview, part of their identity, a theme, a possibility in life. And I think about how for a novelist that can be a part of what they share. And I also think a lot about the duality here, which is the author is not the work. You know, the work is the work and the person behind it is the person. Yet as a fan of a book, or a fan of a theme, or a story, or something like that, we can get engaged with the person behind it. And that's why we love seeing cat photos or dog photos of an author who doesn't write about cats or dogs. And we have little in jokes that aren't part of the book, they're a part of that. And I think about sometimes there's a crossover. There are things that novelists can share that is about the identity and about the worldview. So if you pick just big obvious themes about love, or friendship, or duality, or commitments, or whatever, you can think of lots of little things that one can share that they align with, the reader aligns with, and also kind of fits with stories. But I also think it is about being what you want to see in the world. The word authentic I think is a very challenging one, cause we like to think it's just what we want to do. It's like who we are. But authentic, you've got to be careful with that, too. Like what is authentic? If we were being authentic, we'd all be wearing pajamas right now. You know, we'd be in big comfy chairs, there'd be ice cream surrounding us, that's very authentic to how we'd like to be. But we're all probably wearing more regular clothing, we're sitting in a desk chair, we're sitting up cause we're on a podcast. And I think that we get to filter how we're authentic online. And I think that with this question or what you're sharing here and I'm thinking about, and even your other one, I think a lot about Bruce Springsteen. Partly because I'm from New Jersey and partly because the few times I've been actually right next to him, I'm surrounded by mobs of fans, and behind them are fans, behind them are fans, behind them are fans. And here's someone like you, who doesn't have enough time to get to everyone and he's had to find a way to be okay with that. And he is (to me) the great construct of an image of authenticity. He has an authenticity he's showing you that is true, but it's also a filter of what's authentic.

Sarina (24:52):

Yeah, well sometimes my readers help figure out these themes for me.

Dan (24:59):

Oh wow.

Sarina (25:01):

So well, yeah. So, of course I write in series and my series tend to have certain themes running through them. One of them is hockey, one of them is Vermont. So people will post in my Facebook group, news stories all the time that remind them of little things that have happened in those books. Like this past weekend, a goalie made a goal for his team by basically flipping the puck all the way down the entire length of the ice and scoring. So, when things happen that are newsy, those things will turn up in my reader group. And so people help me identify what are those external, internal. Like the blend of what people take away from fiction and put there. And for example, I had a book three books ago where a character's avatar was Lobster Shorts because of his picture. And he was known as Lobster Shorts for the entire book and people have been posting lobster printed clothing items since the day that book came out. So sometimes I get a leg up on what it is that people are charmed by or taking away from the stories, but sometimes it's mysterious to me and I have to sort of blunder my way through the conversation to figure out what's resonating and what's not.

KJ (26:38):

Well, I was looking at some notes from our interview with Marika Flatt a couple of weeks ago. And she had had this thing on her website about finding the theme of your work. Like the huge theme, not the individual theme for books. And I had was writing down sort of samples for me and samples for you. And I had written something like that your theme is romance can be hard but fun or something like that. Like, you know, it's complicated, but there's a joy in it and a humor in it. And to me, that's what comes across in your social media and that's what's authentic about your writing and your connection - is that there is always the humor. I mean, joy may not be the right word, cause sometimes it's kind of a snarky humor. But yeah, finding the funny in tough situations, to me, that's part of your brand.

Sarina (27:38):

Well that's the thing is it's great when people help you figure out what your brand is. But from where I sit, I'm looking at other romance authors and I see so much that's really not me. Like some romance authors, they're part of their brand or their family is part of their brand. And I'm more private than that, I don't share that much. It's possibly because I'm older and more circumspective, didn't grow up in a sharing culture, but I do struggle with that, too.

KJ (28:13):

What, with what you're not?

Sarina (28:15):

Well, just that I'm reluctant to share things that other people might share.

Dan (28:19):

One thing I look at a lot online is people that seem to be sharing so much as I really try to see, well where are their boundaries? And I'll notice things where someone has a big following and they're sharing their family, sharing their home, and their spouse, and their kids. And on that, well where are their boundaries? And if I look for them, I often see them where it's like, oh, they do share their kids, but it's never more than once a week. It's not always, but often a profile view, or it's at home and they never mention where they live, or the school, they mention them by nickname, they share their home, but it's only in a certain way. It's one thing I like to think a lot about is the agency that everyone needs to choose what and how they share online. Because I agree with you. Everyone needs to have their own boundary and it's a different place for everyone. And I like to think of it as an opportunity to define - you know, I'm going to share this interesting part of myself, whether people care about it or not, because who I am. And I'll share a little bit of this other thing, but only so far. And I think of that even in the offline world with polite conversation with how people talk and introduce themselves and how they're open and they're open to a certain degree so that they can get along and feel human, but then they protect the things that they feel should not be for public consumption either.

KJ (29:43):

So Dan, one of the things that I have done because of you and that I respect about you, is that you are really big on finding pretty much exactly what it is that we're talking about here. That authentic thing that we want to share or sort of the flip side of that is the audience that we want to reach. And by that you don't mean, you know women aged 18 to 35 living in big cities. You know, you mean who are we and who are we trying to reach? And you have some sort of ways to help people get at that. Can you talk about how we can figure out what our theme and our audience is if we're struggling with it?

Dan (30:35):

Yeah, there's a lot to take into there. I think in general, you wanna allow your audience to surprise you in a positive way. And I think sometimes we put up these rules about what we're not, and that closes us off to what we are or what we can be. So, one easy place to begin with this, and I'm not sure if this is too simple, but a lot of writers I speak to, they don't know where they fit in the marketplace. They don't know who their comparable books or comparable authors are. And they feel disconnected from social media because they feel they started too late. Is a conversation there a little too far back or is that okay?

KJ (31:17):

No, that's a good place to start. And let me just say that everyone feels like they started too late on social media.

Sarina (31:25):

That's true.

Dan (31:25):

Yeah. It's funny, this is something that I'm working into my next book and it was a part of the mastermind I run. Which is a couple of weeks in, I used to do a little video saying, 'Oh you're not behind.' And I noticed everyone loved that and I started moving it up and now I actually share that video the day before we start the mastermind. Because I found that even on day one, hour one, people now come in feeling behind from a lot of things in life and it already sort of makes their experience of things so much more difficult cause it's like showing up to a beautiful retreat and on day one you walk in and you already think everyone else knows what they're doing. They're dressed better than I am. They know where to go. Like it's sort of casts a shadow on the whole thing. So in terms of what you're about, I guess there's two main ways I think about it. One is internal and one is external. The internal way is I have a lot of different exercises I go through with people to get real clarity about what do you care about, what would you fight for, what would you rather spend time on more than anything else. So I have a process called clarity cards and it's really this idea of looking at not just what you create, but your whole life and thinking what matters to me. And some of that is task-driven. It's you know, your family, your health. But some of it is I've had so many people go through this and there's a lot on there that is about their fiction, and about their memoir, and about their nonfiction work. And what they're doing is getting really clear of this is who I am, this is what I believe, this is what I write about, but this is also why I spend my time there.

KJ (33:02):

Can you give us an example, without sort of calling out a person? Like what would be one of those themes that might pop up on these cards?

Dan (33:12):

I'll use myself as an example, cause it's the easiest thing to do with no preparation. You know, for myself, I am an introverted germaphobe who is scared of going out and doesn't travel cause I'm scared to fly. Yet I have this business where I work with writers and it's typically more in the marketing end of things. So, what that means when I look at that (and I tried to describe that really pathetically) so when you look at the themes that I care about, well because I genuinely care about people who create, it's writers and it's not just writers, it's people who create. Because I feel like if you're doing that, you are advancing our culture and you are taking a risk that other people are not. So you are my people. So one, I'm already defining it there. It's not just I help writers with marketing. It's the deeper why of why do I spend all my time? Why is my wife an artist? Why have all my friends growing up been artists and writers, photographers and performers all day now? I'm at 10 years of this company and all I do is talk to writers and creators. So it's that drive part of it. It's not just I help writers market things. It's the deeper why there. Then, I look at how you started this conversation, which is if we're not creating, nothing else can happen. So what I think a lot about is the creative process and like the photos on the wall here, I meditate on this idea of having clarity of what you create and embracing, of going all in. And when I look at stories of writers, or performers, or creators, I look at the ways where they did have to isolate themselves. They had to sacrifice, they had to have the world laugh at them, laugh at their idea, and persist anyway, and only later did they see what the genius was. Also because I believe in the creative process, I mean I'm working a few blocks from where I live. I have a very small life geographically and other things I kind of said tongue in cheek before (Oh, I don't like to fly. I don't like to go out.) well that's allowed me to embrace this idea of having a life that's dedicated to my family. I'm either with them or I'm here working with writers. So in a way that's a very small life. And what it means is that I've had to say no to a lot of things because I want to embrace those two things as fully as I can. So to summarize, if you look at my Instagram, or my newsletter, or my podcast, you see those themes coming up. It's who I am and that gives me a lot of latitude to not just say, 'This is the marketing for writers podcast where we teach you how to sell, sell, sell.' Which, sure, it's part of what I do, but it's maybe paper thin when you think about all the things holding that up and all the things that I love talking to writers about. And that's what I think gives me, you said this very generously earlier, which is like you seem to love what you do. And I do. And that's why I love what I do, because I've just explored - if I don't like to go out, and I don't like to fly, and I do this job marketing with writers, like how is that the thing that fuels me? And I wake up super excited to do this work.

KJ (36:31):

It is so hard to take the time to work through that thought process. But it's really, I think, important and rewarding and also a great thing to think about at the start of a new year and a new decade. Going back and revisiting if we feel like we've already done it, to go back and try to find those themes and find that clarity. I'm loving this as a general thought. So to bring it all back home to this question of, okay, how can we love marketing our work? I can answer that for you, but I want you to answer it.

Dan (37:13):

If you know why you create, if you make creating a priority in your life, which does mean a lot of decision making and turning down other potential obligations, and you believe that the work that you are creating has a purpose and that can be a lower case P, it can be an uppercase P for you, that this work can and will connect with someone, and you care about this for all whatever deep reasons you have, sharing that work is your ability to just communicate that, to just say, this is what I believe and why, and I'm sharing it with good intentions and not shoving it down your throat. As the idea of wanting to fill your life, not just with, I wrote these books and they're on a shelf at a store, but living the life of a writer is someone who fills their life with moments, and experiences, and other people who care about these themes, or these types of work, or the conversations you have. And I think that does look different for everyone. But in general, it's not just about how do we get it done. It's how do we build a life that feels fulfilling in what we create, how we share that with other people, how we connect with them, and how that comes back around. And I firmly believe that creative work is complete when someone else experiences it. Because half of that work is what you intended and half of that work is what the reader brings to it. And I think that that is utterly, totally, completely magical.

KJ (38:50):

I love that. And magic is my word of the year. So, now I'm especially delighted that we're sort of wrapping up on that note. So, to shift gears, I forgot to warn you, but I hope you remember that we ask everyone what they've been reading and loving of late and to give you a moment to regroup, Sarina will start. Ha ha, you're on the hotspot.

Sarina (39:22):

I am digging into The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern.

KJ (39:27):

Oh, I have that! Is it good?

Sarina (39:28):

You know, the beginning is great.

KJ (39:31):

I just finished Such a Fun Age by Kiley Reid and I am currently reading a book called How Could She and I forget who the author is. And I'm having this really interesting experience that maybe even gets down to what we've been talking about, which is that I don't like the people in either of these books. I don't think you're meant to, if I'm not enjoying a book on some level, if I'm not getting something out of it, and if it's not well done, if it's not fulfilling, I don't finish. And I 100% finished Such a Fun Age and I'm gonna finish the one that I'm reading right now, but in both of them, they both really center around people with what I would call kind of a sour view of life.

KJ (40:40):

And in a lot of cases, a sour view of pretty good lives. Now Such a Fun Age has a lot of characters that are hugely demographically different. It's got themes of race, and class, and money. So not every character is sour about their privilege, but none of the people in these books feel very hopeful. And so I'm not having very much fun with them, even though I'm reading them. And I don't quite know what to make of that. They are more challenging than reading, you know Red, White, and Royal Blue, which is so, so totally on my bedside table and I'm super looking forward to. So I guess there's that, there's different themes. But yeah, it is this question of do you spend more time reading about characters that you would actually like to spend time with or characters that you maybe have a different life outlook and maybe you want to know more about? Maybe that's where I am with those. It isn't that I don't recommend, I wouldn't mention the book if I didn't like it. It's just, it's a different kind of liking. It's a weird kind of liking. Your turn.

Dan (41:57):

My turn. I'm 200 pages into the thousand page biography on Churchill called Churchill: Walking with Destiny by Andrew Roberts.

KJ (42:08):

And do we like this? Do we want to spend more time with Churchill?

Dan (42:14):

It's interesting really, for probably the reasons you just said, a very complex character, very complex era. And this is a newer biography and it seemed to be the one that balanced (by all the reviews I could read) a lot of different thoughts, recent things that have come out, new archives that were not available earlier. So it seemed to be a very recent, modern take on a very complex subject.

KJ (42:46):

I just heard about a book that was about Churchill's wife and it's new and I am trying to find it, but I am stymied by the fact that there are actual human beings named Anna Churchill, and I think her name was Ana. Just throwing that out there and I'll find it for the show notes that there's apparently an interesting - I actually don't even know if it's sort of a fictionalized version or if it's a biography, but that she was apparently a really, really interesting character. So you can follow up, if you need more Churchill. Alright. Well, this was great. We really appreciate it. Before we sign off, tell people where they can find you and what you've got going on right now.

Dan (43:40):

You can find me on my blog at wegrowmedia.com. The podcast is called The Creative Shift with Dan Blank. Social media @Danblank and I have a little Facebook group called The Reader Connection Project that I've been doing a lot of teachings recently on social media for writers. We have a thousand writers in there, you're welcome to join. And I do a lot of different programs on the idea of how to connect with your readers and all the different facets around that from marketing, to book launches, social media websites, and then even what we've talked about a lot here, which is productivity for writers. So you can check all that out. Thank you.

KJ (44:26):

I'm going to give a co-sign to the idea of signing up for your weekly email because it is really good, and really heartfelt, and an excellent example of the genre, which I guess wouldn't be surprising since you read a lot of them. Sarina, you want to take us out?

Sarina (44:45):

I will, right after I sign up for Dan Blank's weekly email. I would like to remind you all to keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 198 #RoomforTwoPrincesses Feb 14, 2020

We’re interviewing Julie Lythcott-Haims this week and you won’t want to miss it, because 1) she wrote an amazing, best-selling book called How to Raise an Adult and then followed THAT up with a memoir, Real American, that the New York Times Book Review pretty much thought was amazing and is now drafting the sequel to Adult very much on her own terms; and 2) she could very easily have become Jess’s arch-nemesis, and vice versa.

If they had been totally different people.

If they had been less open, less willing to see possibility in a scary-sounding situation.

If they’d let fear and jealousy win. But they didn’t. So two writers with authority, each releasing a book on raising children to be independent in nearly exactly the same moment turned out to be a recipe for collaboration, not catastrophe. The lesson? In books, it’s really almost never winner-takes-all.

We talk about how they pulled it off, how Julie transcended expectations with her memoir and why it’s so important to resist the call to write something that isn’t what you want to write.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, we’re giving away a set of three LitStarts, little books of writing prompts created by the Writer’s Grotto that Julie talks about during the podcast, to—a subscriber to this weekly shownotes email! Which means you’re very likely already entered to win. If you’re not, just click below, sign up to get our free weekly behind the scenes from the podcast and get your name in that hat.

(and if you know someone who would really LOVE to win those—please forward this email and help a fellow writer out.)

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

Lit Starts

Half a Life, Darin Strauss

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Julie: Wildhood: The Astounding Connections between Human and Animal Adolescents Dr. Barbara Natterson-Horowitz, Kathryn Bowers

Jess: Quit Like a Woman: The Radical Choice to Not Drink in a Culture Obsessed with Alcohol, Holly Whitaker

KJ: How Could She, Lauren Mechling

Andy J. Pizza’s Creative Pep Talk Podcast, especially episode 259 - 20 SURPRISING AND SUPER POWERFUL PROMPTS THAT WILL MAKE 2020 THE YEAR YOU DO YOUR BEST WORK EVER!

Our guest for this episode is Julie Lythcott-Haims.

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful. Sometimes. transcripts may appear a few days after an episode has aired.)

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 197 #HowtoWinatPR Feb 07, 2020

Marika Flatt is the founder of PR By the Book, an independent publicity firm dedicated to working with authors, publishers and books. Their tagline is “from author to influencer,” and we talk about that process—and how your goals as an author (sell books, get speaking gigs, sell earlier books, increase name recognition, even sell products or services) change how you might work with a publicist, and even whether you should work with a publicist at all.

And if your book is still very much a WIP, we’ve got you covered with what writers can do before our books are ready to start establishing the kind of backstory (I refuse to call it platform, because there’s so much more to it) that makes that writer-publicist teaming really work later in the game. Marika even has a DIY program for authors to help us figure these things out without a major investment.

We also got this great reminder: “If your book soars, all those people will be there to buy your next book. If your first book crashes but people connect with you as a person, you still win.”

Episode links and a transcript follow. If you’re excited to listen, please consider supporting the podcast with a small monthly donation. Our sponsor pays for production—but you people pay for our time, and your support is what makes us want to keep coming back every week.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Marika: My Life in 37 Therapies: From Yoga to Hypnosis and why Voodoo is Never the Answer, Kay Hutchinson

You Are My Brother: Lessons Learned Embracing a Homeless Community, Judith Knotts

KJ: Life and Other Inconveniences, Kristan Higgins (reviewed on #BooksThatWon’tBumYouOut)

Sarina: The Cuckoo’s Egg, Cliff Stoll

Our guest for this episode is Marika Flatt. Find more about her at PRbythebook.com and find her Author-to-Influencer DIY program HERE.

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. So—if you’re struggling to find your way through your book, to get past the soggy middle or chapter three or find the throughline that carries your nonfiction home, check out our sponsor, Author Accelerator, at https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwriting, where you’ll find everything from exercises to help you hone in on your novel to ideas for creating a nonfiction framework to book coaches who could be your key to making this the year that draft is finally done. Bonus link from the intro: Pat Walsh’s 78 Reasons Your Book May Never Be Published and 14 Reasons Why It Just Might.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

196 #WhereDoestheTimeGo Jan 31, 2020

It started with a question in the #AmWriting Facebook group: How do you get it all done?

And the answer was, of course—we don’t, no one does, we push things off until tomorrow or we put out fires all day and then frantically write until late in the evening or we drive our children around for hours while chastising ourselves for not making better choices.

But really, you all said. Really truly when do you write? And how d you put it first? And what do you do when you don’t or can’t? This is us, three full time writers and also parents (all of teenagers), talking about the push and pull of looking like you’re at home and available when you’re not, and how the awful truth is that sometimes you are, and how we control what we can and scream hopelessly into the void at what we can’t. (That’s just who we are.)

We realized we’re each good at some parts of this and not others, which means we can take a little inspiration. We can protect our time, do the important stuff first and cut ourselves a little slack. And we can always, always recognize that it’s what you do the day after you feel like you really lost momentum that matters most.

Episode links and a transcript follow, and that’s pretty much it for this week. Of course, a #WriterTopFive will go out to supporters Monday, and the topic will be a total surprise (heck, it’s a surprise for me too) but we promise it will be practical advice you can use that we probably need too. If you’re a fan of the podcast—if we’re offering, say, two grande mochas worth of advice a month, please consider supporting us for actually less than that. $7 a month, and we promise we’re not coming for your coffee.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess:

The Wilderness Idiot: Lessons from an Accidental Adventurer, Ted Alvarez

A Wolf at the Table: A Memoir of My Father, Augusten Burroughs

Dry: A Memoir, Augusten Burroughs

KJ:

Toil and Trouble: A Memoir, Augusten Burroughs

Sarina:

Great and Precious Things, Rebecca Yarros

We love our sponsor, Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE, and if we were being coached right now we would probably somehow be managing to pull off better time management, because time is money in more ways than one, and when you invest in your writing career, it’s a lot harder to make excuses. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

Follow KJ on Instagram for her #BooksThatWon’tBumYouOut series: short reviews of books that won’t make you hate yourself and all humanity.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

The image in our podcast illustration is by KJ, who totally wants credit.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ: 00:01 Hey fellow writers, KJ here as we launch into an episode that’s ostensibly about how we get all the things done. Spoiler alert, we don’t, and I’m having a really depressing winter on that front. BUT—I can tell you that one thing that can help you shift into really prioritizing your work is to invest in it, and to make a commitment to another person to work through challenges both on the page and in the calendar. Our sponsor, Author Accelerator, matches writers in both fiction and non-fiction with book coaches who can help you go from stuck to done no matter where you are in the process. Find out more at authoraccelerator.com/amwriting. Is it recording?

Jess: 00:43 Now it's recording.

KJ: 00:44 Yay.

Jess: 00:45 Go ahead.

KJ: 00:46 This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess: 00:50 Alright, let's start over.

KJ: 00:51 Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Now, one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things - fiction, nonfiction, pitches, proposals, really as I do say every week. This is the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done. And oh boy, today is it ever the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done!

Jess: 01:28 I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of the Gift of Failure and I write about kids, and I write about substance abuse, and I write about so many fun things at places like the New York Times, the Atlantic, and the Washington Post. And I'm currently editing my next book, which will be out in 2021.

Sarina: 01:46 And I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 30-odd romance novels. And I have a deadline on March 10th, guys. So this is a great topic for me today.

Jess: 01:56 This is so timely because we all have various deadlines that we're working towards right now.

KJ: 02:04 Wait, I haven't introduced myself yet, people won't know who I am. I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of The Chicken Sisters, a novel coming out this summer and How to Be a Happier Parent, which is out in hardback now and will be out in paperback this summer. So big summer for me. Mostly at the moment you'll find me on Instagram, but I'm also a pretty regular contributor to the New York Times and a few other places.

Jess: 02:30 You've been getting some really fun book talks lately, Missy Instagram.

KJ: 02:34 I have been. It's my series called #BooksThatWon'tBumYouOut and it's all books that won't bum you out. Because I felt like I needed someone to recommend those books to me. And one of my things for the year is start the things you wish other people would do. So there we go.

Jess: 02:52 I love it, I absolutely love it. So we should talk about what our topic is for today and why it's our topic for today. Do you wanna talk about that, Sarina?

Sarina: 03:00 Well, what we really do all day is try to figure out where does the time go. And we all have children and other responsibilities besides writing.

KJ: 03:14 And someone asked us...

Jess: 03:16 Yes, someone asked about this in the Facebook group, too. Someone said, 'It's all nice and good when you talk about the broad strokes, but we want the nitty gritty, like how you're actually getting the work done with all the other things you have to do.'

KJ: 03:31 Right. And we had this great exchange in there in which we sort of all went back to, well, you know, when our kids were little, things were different. And I sort of ended that exchange thinking, well, and that's true when the kids were little it was harder. And yet as I look - I've actually been keeping track of my week and I'm realizing, okay, when the kids were little, I had a babysitter. So I had dedicated work time. And at the moment I have made the mistake of not, and my work time is looking super pitiful at the moment. So yeah. Let's dig into what we actually do all day and when we do it.

Jess: 04:15 Since you've been such a good Doobie and kept track of your time, why don't you go ahead and start?

KJ: 04:19 It's been really depressing, guys.

Jess: 04:20 You informed me on a text the other day that I was a 10 minute time-waster.

KJ: 04:27 You did, you did. You sucked my time away with a tempting text, that granted I should never have looked at. No, one of you start and I'm just gonna do a little ugly math.

Jess: 04:42 See, here's the thing. I feel really bad about this because my reality is different. We all have kids that overlap, but I only have two of them. One of them is in college and he's actually even away this semester. He studying away from his college so he's even further away than usual. And then I have a 16 year old kid who is so sort of self-directed and doesn't want much to do with me, except for this week he's been really sick. So this week has actually been a busier week than usual because I've had a lot of interviews, I've had a lot of obligations, phone calls. I've got a bunch of travel coming up and before I do that, I have these conference calls with the organizers. And so it's been a lot of that this week. And there's been a few things I've had to move around because I've had to pick him up from school when he's like 'I can't stay, I real feel horrible.' So this week has been, you know, dicier than usual. But for the most part, I'm sickeningly flexible because except for like these three dogs that get bummed out when I leave the house or when I move around the house. I have a ton of time to get my stuff done. So I'm not very helpful. But when I look at what I was doing when my kids were little, you know, again, it was really different. I didn't have a babysitter, but I did have friends that I traded with a lot. I had neighbors close by and my kids would run off to their house. But on a nitty gritty day to day basis, I'm just gonna make people mad. I sleep in, I'm not a good morning person. I get up and shuffle into my office, which is 10-12 steps from my bedroom. I sit down and I work until I'm done working. And then my 16 year old kid doesn't even come through the door until four o'clock in the afternoon when the bus gets home. And at that point he doesn't actually want a ton to do with me until dinner time. So there you go. I'm sorry.

Sarina: 06:43 You know what though, Jess...

Jess: 06:45 I feel bad that I'm not contributing.

KJ: 06:47 You should not feel bad.

Sarina: 06:48 No. First of all, you're not allowed to feel bad. But secondly, I actually do hate you, but not for the reasons that you think.

Jess: 07:03 Let me say one other thing, which is that, I am very, very lucky in that I work fast. And I credit a lot of that with working with KJ for the couple of years that I did the column at the New York Times because I didn't use to work so fast, but I'm much faster now. And so when I actually sit down and get focused, I work really, really fast and I think that's been one of the saving graces. Even when I was teaching full time, I'd get up crazy early, get home from school and then sit down to do the other work, which was not only the grading, but also the article writing. And when that happened I was working really fast. So I will add that caveat in that I'm a pretty fast writer.

Sarina: 07:46 Well also, the boundless energy whereby this week you're editing a book and also removing wallpaper from a room and then painting another one. Like I just want to like weep when I hear about this.

Jess: 07:58 That's my fun time. I mean, I've said it before, weeding or gardening and I can't do that in the winter here in Vermont. So I've been removing wallpaper and repainting a room that I promised I would repaint when we first moved in a year and a half ago. I'm finally getting to it. And that's how I relax.

KJ: 08:13 Is that your point of hatred, Sarina?

Sarina: 08:16 Sort of. I think it's the boundless energy, but it also might just be focus, because I have as many work hours as Jess does probably. I mean, today alone, my husband has made me two meals and a latte worthy of Italy.

Jess: 08:51 What KJ is trying to say is that sometimes having people in your space is difficult.

Sarina: 08:55 Yes, it's true. I also have a kid home from school today, so you know, good times, but it's not the hours that I'm fighting against so much, as getting my hands around the business itself all the time. I need to like silence everything and write a couple of hours a day, which is hard when my email inbox is like one of Dante's circles of hell and I literally every day don't know what to do first.

Jess: 09:25 That's something that mystifies me about your work flow - is you're getting so many words written, but you're also managing the business of self publishing your books, which blows my mind wide open. So I'm actually really curious and I know a lot about your schedule. I'm really curious as to how a daily workflow works for you.

Sarina: 09:45 Well, when it works, it's because I do those words first. And that's been really hard for me lately because of that inbox, and I know that if I look, there'll be some fires to put out in there or people who want answers and it's really hard for me to ignore that, as like a pleaser. As my personality type wants to get back to people right away. But if I do, it's just done. So I've actually had to make silly little rules for myself. Like when I'm drinking my Italian worthy cup of coffee in the morning, I can't look at my email right then. I just can't, because I'll get sucked in. And I'm like, 'Oh, it'll just take a second to answer her and then I'll start to wonder like, Oh, I wonder what the numbers looked like after that latest promotion.' And then I'll go look at them. And it's really hard because that's working as well. Like that's work and it arguably needs to be done. So I'm wrestling the writing and the business all the time. And what really does not get done is like painting a room or even maybe vacuuming it, because that's just got to go. Like when this topic came up, you know, how do you guys get it all done? I immediately thought of JK Rowling and her quote, 'You know, but you don't understand I live in squalor.'

Jess: 11:10 Well and you know, on the other hand, again I like vacuuming and so there are certain things that for me - well the reason I like painting, and the reason I like vacuuming, and the reason I like cleaning is that when I'm doing those things, I'm plugged into an audio book. Or, even better I'll drag my laptop into the room where I'm painting and I'll watch a television show, or a movie, which is like crazy luxury. So for me, that ability to turn my brain off and listen to something else while I'm actually getting something done for me is incredibly satisfying. And if you think about it, I was talking to someone about this this morning, I can point at that wall and say, 'Look, I did that. It is done.' Whereas with my edits, no one knows, it's this big morass of words and no one knows what was there and I can't point at anything. It can be tough cause my husband's a physician and he's out there saving people's lives, and my son's out there learning things, and I'm sitting here at home. So that's my thing is being able to point to something and say, 'Look, I cleaned that today.' at least makes me feel like I got something done. Especially when the edits aren't going well.

KJ: 12:31 Well maybe my reason for hating you will make you feel better because my reason for hating you is that you are so extremely good at protecting your time. And some of that has to do with the number of kids, and where we live, and the flexibility and stuff like that. But you don't let people dump 47 dentist appointments, and extra carpool, and I really want to get my hair red on the bottom can you drive me to Fairley and pick me up again three hours later. And also, the guy is coming to fix the heat in the bedroom and I feel like you're much better about, 'Yeah, no, sorry people, you can't do that today because I'm editing. And my whole week has basically gone to that/health stuff that I can't deal with.

Jess: 13:25 But partly that has to do with the kind of kid I have, too. I mean, I have a 16 year old who basically goes up to his cave time room and hangs out in there and does his stuff in there. And if on the rare occasion he needs a haircut it doesn't take three hours. So no, I get that. But I, on the other hand, I also don't have joiners and even when my kid was a joiner. You know, for example, when Benjamin did cross country, he would tell me which meets to go to cause he knew full well I was not going to all of them. And I think that's important. Then if I knew he said to me, you know, please come to this particular meet, you know that's important to him and then I showing up means something. But yeah, I guess you are right.

KJ: 14:15 Well, that's what I'm getting out of this. I really did, I wrote down my time from when I got up until when I sort of stopped working for the day. And Monday I didn't do because I forgot it was Monday, basically. I did work, but I forgot it was Monday cause it was that kind of week. We are recording this during Martin Luther King week. So I forgot Monday, Tuesday I had total writing town of an hour and 50 minutes and total work time of three and a half hours because two kids had dentist appointments and I went to the dentist and then one kid looked at the dentist and I think I'm going to barf and the dentist said, 'You sit over there and don't touch anything.' So I ended up even having to reschedule that kid's dentist appointment in a burst of true inefficiency cause to me if you don't take at least two people to the doctor or dentist at a time, you've completely blown it. I sort of came home and I did (I mean props to me, I'm going to take this one) I do write first. I write first almost no matter what, after the things that I have been unable...

Jess: 15:24 And you write outside the house, too.

KJ: 15:26 No, I do sometimes. Yeah.

Jess: 15:29 You're so good at that, though.

KJ: 15:30 So that's what I'm looking at is like, okay, I had an hour and 50 minutes of writing time and total work time of three and a half hours. Because carpool, because I made dinner, because I drove someone to hockey, because I took a Spanish lesson. What I'm looking at is what time in there could I have probably gotten back. And the answer is maybe the dentist appointment - and my partner does do a lot of those things. So it just depends. I need to speak up. Carpool I could work harder, because I ended up with carpool every day this week, so I could work harder to make that not happen so well. Cause Wednesday was much the same thing, except they were my doctor's appointments and I can't really do anything about that. I have issues, and I have to go, and then I'm depressed, and that doesn't help. But again, I did come home and I did right first.

Jess: 16:31 Actually I want to break in here cause I think listeners need to know something important. When you say carpool it's because - if I still lived where we live, where you live, I would be having to do a lot of that driving because where we live does not have a bus to take the kids to the high school. So there's this requirement of someone to go down a town away and pick up the children. And you know Finn has a bus he can take everyday now, but if I was still living there I would at least once a day have to jump in my car and carve an hour out of my day to go get children.

KJ: 17:10 But if I were meaner, I would make the children sometimes do other things. And I've been so much better about this this year, but I could be better still. Like you know, you could go to the library, or in one child's case there is a bus. It doesn't get the child all the way home, but instead of being an hour round trip, it would be a 20 minute round trip. But the child doesn't want to take the bus. And part of me is like, well, once I'm in the car for 20 minutes, I might as well pick all the other children up. And that's how I get stuck with carpool all the time. And then I have a sick kid and other people had sick kids and that stuck me with carpool all the time. This is not been a good week, but it is sort of forcing me to go, 'How am I contributing to this not being a good week?' And some of that is saying yes to things that I could either pack into all the same time or just say, 'I'm sorry. You're going to have to sit at the library for two hours until your dad's ready to come home.' I could do that. I could do it more. I do it some.

Sarina: 18:20 Well, I have found and it's a little lesson that I keep learning over and over again. That even when I think I'm paying attention to these details and getting my hands around this. Sometimes, in fact, usually, there's more attention I could be paying because the answer's in there somewhere. You know, I knew going into January that I needed to get words first and I wanted to get it, and then I was not getting it, and I would end up getting my sticker at like 10:30 at night, having sat down to work sort of at 7:30 in the morning. So obviously, lots of slippage going on there. And I really had to say, okay, why, why does this keep happening? It's not because we're not smart enough to get this job done. It's something is blowing us up every day. And it was me going into my inbox, just for something quick.

KJ: 19:24 Yeah, that's killer.

Jess: 19:27 It's Twitter for me.

KJ: 19:28 I agree. You can't do that. I am actually so resolute about this. So onto this morning, when I didn't have a doctor, or a dentist, or anything, and in theory I would have been back home and sitting at my desk at 8:15 ready to write. Except that when I went out at 7:30 to feed the mini ponies, we were startling one mini pony short of a pair. That's not normal. There should be two. So I sort of followed the evidence, and looked around, and fortunately there was not a mini pony laying and hurt anywhere. He had broken through the fence and burst down and headed down to our barn. So, I had to stop, take the child to school, and then I had to come back, repair the fence, strip the wires, rewire the fence, go down, get both the ponies again, because in the interval the other pony had gone down to the barn and put them back. So, at that point I kinda gave up on the week.

Jess: 20:32 I don't know, if you had been Sarina, you could've been dictating your book the entire time you were doing all this work. Cause it appears that Sarina's getting her words in through alternate means recently, which is also just infuriating to me. I mean inspirational, yet infuriating.

Sarina: 20:52 It doesn't really work quite like that, Missy.

Jess: 20:56 I'm just impressed by the whole process, cause it's something that I just haven't been able to do and I'm just impressed. That's all.

Sarina: 21:14 I don't actually dictate the prose of my book, much. Instead, when I need to work out what happens next in a book, like I do my pre-writing this way. You know, so I'm walking around Lebanon while someone's having a violin lesson saying like, 'And then he has to run into her in this place and it's awkward because of this thing and then...'. You know, but it's not words that I can save.

Jess: 21:40 I think actually what I enjoy most is the image of you all bundled up talking to yourself as you walk around high school track in another town, talking about the plot of your book. I enjoy that image very, very much.

Sarina: 21:58 Well, good. But it really helps.

KJ: 22:03 I mean cause one of the things I gain from sitting down and doing this thing where I sort of every half an hour wrote down what I did and how many words I ended up with - was that actually doesn't take me that long to get a fairly large amount of words. I wrote 2,700 words in two and a half hours today. But part of that is because I had pre-written, a little of it I pulled out of an old draft and was able to drop in. And this was all pictured. Like I knew what was going to happen. I knew what they were going to say to each other. I knew who the people were, I knew what I was doing. So I was both sort of heartened and disheartened by how little actual time it would probably take me to finish the draft. And yet how slowly I am accomplishing it.

Sarina: 22:55 You know what though, when I worked on Wall Street, we had a daily profit and loss. Everyday you would have a P and L and the boss would walk around at the end of the day, and look at everybody, and you would say up 25 grand or down 10 grand or up 50 grand. And then every few months you would have like a career day. You would be able to look at the boss and say, 'I made $700,000 today.' And then you would walk away after that and get your overpriced glass of wine or whatever and think, what if I just came to work on those days?

KJ: 23:32 What if I just wrote bestsellers?

Sarina: 23:34 Yeah, but that's the thing about your 2,700 words in two and a half hours. Like the stars and moon were in perfect alignment for you to get that. And that's why I look so carefully at what is my average take over time? Because you can't put that pressure on yourself all the time. Like just because your day theoretically has two and a half hours in, it doesn't mean you're going to end up with 2,700 keepers.

Jess: 23:59 What's been really noticeable about that, Sarina, is that this month I have worked every single day on my editing and there've been some days that I haven't worked a long, long time. I've been having some of those brain cramps that KJ talks about sometimes where she's like, 'Ow it hurts. I want to go do something else.' And I feel like I'm wrestling my brain to stay on the page, but just the fact that I worked every single day means I think I'm going to hit my deadline at the end of this month. Or at least I'm going to come within a couple of days if I go over. And I think that just comes down to the fact that even if I had a couple of really slow days or low work sticker days, that they're all there and that something got done every single day. And that's really helping me more than I thought it would. I thought, you know, Oh my God, this is going to be a grind. I'm going to have to sit down for six hours a day this month to get it done. And that hasn't been the case. I just have to sit down every day.

Sarina: 24:58 Yeah. And you have to forgive yourself when you can't. Like I'm finding myself in the odd position with the book that I'm working on now that I know a lot about how it ends, but it turns out that the beginning was a little bit mysterious to me. Which never happens, it's usually the opposite. And so I've been so frustrated with myself about not knowing how to get to that point in the future. And you can't rush that cogitation time. So I could tell you all my tricks for writing books in the passenger seat of the car while the kid is doing his karate. But it doesn't matter if I'm not ready to like spit out chapter four.

KJ: 25:44 Agreed.

Jess: 25:45 I have been noticing that you mentioned earlier that it's been harder for you to get your words done every day. And I have been noticing that your text with the word stickers coming in later in the day than it usually does.

Sarina: 25:56 Yeah. That's cause I'm spending the whole day thinking, 'But why are we doing this in chapter four?' And trying to move the steering wheel in ways that it doesn't want to move. But anyway, that happens. And when I know what I'm doing, then I really just have to sit there and let it happen. Like at the end of our podcast we talk about what books we've read and I won't have one today because I finally figured out some stuff about chapter four and I don't want to walk away.

KJ: 26:27 You're reading your own book, in your head.

Jess: 26:29 I'm actually about to have to do that again just to get the big picture because I'm at the point in editing where I'm trying to drop in a few pieces here and there and when I do that without going back through the whole book, I end up repeating myself. Like not even realizing that I already said that. Or you know, this feels so brilliant right now. Oh, that's because I already wrote this entire section and it was 20 pages ago. I think it's so hard for that reason, though. I think it's so hard to get back in any kind of flow because you're trying to dip into something that you wrote six months ago. And that's what's proving really mentally challenging for me. Cause I've now made that mistake a couple of times. Writing something that I realize is two paragraphs before. But what I'm actually doing right now is a fun thing (I say fun sarcastically). So in books by big publishers that are not academic books, you have to do this thing at the end called key phrase call-out where you go back and you find a little key phrase and then you go to the end and you give the little key phrase and then you give the reference for the key phrase. And that's what I'm in the middle of doing now. And there really isn't anything more boring than that. Very, very few things anyway.

KJ: 27:51 Wait, but that sounds like the kind of thing you would normally have sort of done at the same time.

Jess: 27:58 Yes. So I have traditional end notes because I was using that citation manager. Well that's the kind of thing where I can have a movie playing, or I can listen to the BBC's Pride and Prejudice for the 3,000th time while I'm doing that kind of thing. And that makes the process a little bit happier for me.

KJ: 28:29 I don't know if we've learned anything, because these fall into the category of, as Sarina said, lessons we just keep learning. But, I'm taking away that I need to protect my time and heck, at least I'm good at not looking at my emails and texts.

Jess: 28:59 Actually, KJ, I have to tell you. I actually was being interviewed for something yesterday and I referred to you and I referred to How To Be a Happier Parent because the person was asking me about how she was feeling like her time was just being stolen away from her and how much time her kids were spending in extracurriculars. And I said that one of the most meaningful action points from How To Be a Happier Parent was about talking to your kids about if you commit to this thing, here are the things you're not going to be able to do. And as you went through, I think when one of your kids was thinking about doing an extra sport or something like that. And I said, 'You know, that's one of the things that yes, we have to keep relearning this, but it's also important to talk this through with our kids. If we're going to say, you know, our kid wants to do another team sport, and you say, look, your parent works as a writer and your parent is going to have to drive you back and forth. So let's talk about the things that you won't be able to do with the time. And let's talk about the things that are going to be difficult for me to do with my time.' And I don't think that means we're selfish. I think that means that we're teaching our kids that it's important to value their time as well. And that was sort of the point I made to the journalist and when phrased that way, it's about teaching our kids to value our time, allowing ourselves the ability to sequester our most valuable bits of time for the work that we want to do the most. And that just means we're taking ourselves seriously as professionals. So that's my big takeaway. I'm giving everyone permission to tell their kids that they can't do another team sport because they have to be able to get the words written. There you go. Well and I also like Sarina's point about having small rules about the coffee. I happen to have small rules. My rule is the opposite of hers. I'm allowed to sit at my desk and have breakfast and my coffee while I look at Twitter, but as soon as my breakfast is gone, I have to shut down Twitter and get to work.

KJ: 30:57 Having these little practices is important. For me it's basically no phone till I take kids to school, because I just will get derailed so easily by a work text, or a work email, or something. Our mornings are so calibrated that five minutes later is a problem. So that's one and I didn't think about that anymore. And then no email until after I've got the words done. That's another one I don't think about anymore. And it's a little bit of a luxury. I don't have an editor. If there's something I really needed to check, I would, but I don't have to. So, I'm used to those I wasn't giving myself credit for those.

Jess: 31:41 One other small thing that also works for me is my rule generally is morning is for the words. So if I'm scheduling a dentist appointment, if I'm scheduling an interview, or one of those conference calls I was talking about I say I'm available anytime after noon and just the morning is not available. That's just for the words.

KJ: 32:02 Yeah. I just have to cut myself a little more slack this month, for whatever reason, for basically every appointment known to man. I apparently at some point last fall looked at it and said, 'Well, January would be good for that.' With the result that every week is like orthodontist, and hair, and dentist, and chiropractor, and I have all my followups. And that was not a question of choice. That was a question of timing. And just endless, endless stuff. Plus, it's hockey season. It's the only sport that two of the three children that are still at home play. Things will get better when it is no longer hockey season.

Jess: 32:47 That was my November, my book will be turned in. So November is just wide open, schedule all the things. And I paid, man, I paid in November. That was tough.

KJ: 32:59 That's a lesson I wish that I would learn. But yeah, I don't know. I mean they gotta do those things sometimes. It wouldn't be any better in February. I don't know if it's better to mash them all, but boy it is frustrating to look at a week and go wow, every single morning somebody has an appointment to do something at eight o'clock. Because that's when I make mine. Cause you can get them done, and then you can get them to school, and about half of them my partner takes. But sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

Jess: 33:33 Alright. Sarina, you have anything to add before I move on to the reading stuff that you didn't do?

Sarina: 33:41 You know, I actually realized that I did read something. Should I kick off with that?

Jess: 33:48 Oh, sure, sure.

Sarina: 33:49 I read a beautiful novel named Great and Precious Things by Rebecca Yarros, which comes out in February. And she does angsty, emotional, military heroes in sort of a crossover between romance and women's fiction.

Jess: 34:08 Okay. That sounds really good, actually. I read something that I think I'm going to be lending probably to KJ I'm assuming. I picked it up at the Vermont bookshop in Middlebury, Vermont, and it's called The Wilderness Idiot: Lessons from an Accidental Adventurer. It's by Ted Alvarez. And Ted Alvarez is an editor for Backpacker Magazine. And it's really, really fun. They're sort of short pieces so you can dip in and out. And it's really, really funny. It's making me laugh a lot. I really liked it.

KJ: 34:48 Well, I read a book that I am going to be passing on to you, Jess. I read Toil and Trouble by Augustan Burrows. And it is so much fun. It's basically what if David Sedaris believed he was a witch and do I need to say anything more than that? Because it's awesome.

Jess: 35:08 So Augustan Boroughs, you know, I've been a fan of for a long time. I was just really worried because Wolf at the Table I didn't love, even though he wasn't trying to be particularly funny in that book because it was about his abusive dad. So I was concerned with Toil and Trouble; it sounded a little off the rails to me. Like Augustan Bouroughs is convinced he's a witch, but I'm so glad that you liked it because I wanted it to be good.

KJ: 35:33 I do like it and I don't care that Augusten Burroughs is convinced that he's a witch. I enjoy that about Augusten Burroughs. I appreciated that. Yeah, it totally works in this context, I think.

Jess: 35:47 Cause as far as I'm concerned, Augusten Burrough's book Dry is my favorite addiction memoir ever. I love that book so much. And I'm an Augusten Burroughs fan, so yeah.

KJ: 36:02 Alright, well that's our episode. What we really do all day and today we spent about an hour recording this. I spent the preceding hour prepping tomorrow's episode fully. That's the other thing about actually tracking what you do is you end up with little notes that say things like, 'Wrote Instagram story about pony escape, half an hour.' and then you are forced to realize that seems like nothing - it's not nothing.

Jess: 36:39 Well, I actually kept track of how much time it took me to get this one email address that I really needed to work, to work. And it took me over three and a half hours of my time to get an email address to work.

KJ: 36:53 It's not like you were looking for somebody else's email, just to clarify. You have this email address that people need to email you at.

Jess: 37:05 I needed it operational and it just wouldn't work. And it turns out that it wasn't my fault. It was on some weird blocked list at Squarespace. But yeah, three and a half hours just to get a stupid email and then, you know, you just get frustrated and then you're all cranky and you're yelling at your family because you can't get the email address to work. So that's fun.

KJ: 37:47 Alright. But really, it probably really is always something.

Jess: 37:50 Yes, it is. And for those of you who haven't visited or been to the #AmWriting Facebook page, if you want to be a part of that, anyone can be a part of it. And it's where this question got started. And there's a lot of details there that KJ, and Sarina, and I added to that thread about where all the time goes and how we spend our time. So between that thread that's over there and this podcast, I think we've sort of covered the topic, but go on over to #AmWriting group on Facebook, which is now a couple of thousand really cool writers. I have to say some really cool people over there. So until next week though, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 195: #FromPeopletoSciAmerican Jan 24, 2020

How do you become a science writer? What if you didn’t even think you liked science as a kid? What if, instead of “serious journalism”, you spent the first half of your career covering celebrities and royals, even becoming the London Bureau Chief for People magazine?

Then you’re in perfect shape, at least if you’re our guest, Lydia Denworth. She tells us how she made that transition, going from People through Redbook to Scientific American using the dual powers of curiosity and ignorance (and more relevantly, the willingness to admit it). We also discuss getting grants for non-fiction research, pitching scientific topics and the literary aspect of science writing—and Friendship, which just happens to be both the topic and the title of Denworth’s latest book.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, did you love last week’s #WritersTopFive: Top 5 Ways to Win at Newsletter Subject Lines? Because I did (and I’m winning.) This Monday: Top 5 Things to Do When Your WIP Feels Like It’s In Flames. Support the podcast you love AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess: Open Season (Joe Gunther Mysteries #1), Archer Mayor

KJ: Eleanor Oliphant Is Completely Fine, Gail Honeyman (catch it on my #BooksThatWon’tBumYouOut series HERE)

Lydia: The Great Pretender: The Undercover Mission that Changed Our Understanding of Madness, Susannah Cahalan

The Ruin, Dervla McTiernan

Bonus Book Rec for Lydia: The Mountains Wild, Sarah Stewart Taylor (because “those Irish really know how to do dark”).

Our guest for this episode is Lydia Denworth.

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

Follow KJ on Instagram for her #BooksThatWon’tBumYouOut series: short reviews of books that won’t make you hate yourself and all humanity.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ: 00:01 Hey there listeners, it’s KJ. Our guest today is a science writer extraordinare, and we’ll be talking everything from grants to the literary and storytelling aspects of that form of nonfiction—but before we do, here’s something else for the nonfiction authors out there: If that’s the your kind of work, our sponsor, Author Accelerator, can help—and you don’t have to go all in with full-on book coaching if you’re not ready. Check out their new four-week long nonfiction framework program that will help you nail down your structure before you start to write (or after you’re writing and realizing—dang, this thing needs a backbone!). Authors of self-help, how-to and academic texts will find the shape of their books, create a working one-page summary that reveals that shape at a glance and develop a flexible table of contents to guide you through the drafting and revision process. You can find a lot more (including previews of much of the material) by going to https://www.authoraccelerator.com/nonfictionframework. Is it recording?

Jess: 01:11 Now it's recording.

KJ: 01:13 Yay!

Jess: 01:13 Go ahead.

KJ: 01:14 This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess: 01:14 Alright, let's start over.

KJ: 01:14 Awkward pause, I'm going to rustle some papers.

Jess: 01:14 Okay.

KJ: 01:14 Now one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things. Writing fiction, nonfiction, short fiction, long nonfiction, short nonfiction, I could probably go on like that forever. We are the podcast about writing pitches, proposals, essays, and essentially, as I say, every week, this is the podcast about sitting down and getting your writing work done.

Jess: 02:00 I'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of the Gift of Failure, How the Best Parents Learn to Let Go So Their Children Can Succeed. And a forthcoming book about preventing substance abuse in kids. So I'm not so much writing this week as I'm deep, deep in the edits. You can find my work at the Atlantic, the New York Times, Washington Post, and at jessicalahey.com.

KJ: 02:22 I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of the forthcoming novel, The Chicken Sisters as well as How To Be a Happier Parent, which is out in hardback now. And will be coming in paperback soon to a bookstore near you and you can find me on Instagram at kjda and everywhere else at kjdellantonia and kjdellantonia.com.

Jess: 02:48 We have a guest today. We have a very patient guest. We've had to reschedule this guest an embarrassing number of times and I'm so excited that she's finally with us. And this is really timely because we've had some questions about exactly what this writer does in the #AmWriting Facebook group. So I would love to introduce to you Ms. Lydia Denworth. She is a science writer. She is a contributing editor to Scientific American, she writes the Brainwaves blog for Psychology Today, she's written three books, one called Toxic Truth on lead. A book that I really, really love called I Can Hear You Whisper. I keep it in the literacy section of my bookcase, actually, along with some other fun books, like Language at the Speed of Sight and her new book that will be coming out at the end of January on January 29th called Friendship. So this is a really appropriate and wonderful and exciting book to talk about on this podcast. Since of course I get to podcast with my best friends. So Lydia, welcome so much to the podcast.

Lydia: 03:59 I am so happy to be here. Thank you.

Jess: 04:02 Well and again, thank you so much for your patience. We've had a couple of recording dates fall through and so I'm just so glad you stuck with us through our timing snafus.

Lydia: 04:12 Not a problem at all.

Jess: 04:15 Well, we have burning questions. Not only ours, but some of our listeners, but we always love to start with the question of how you got started, how you got started writing and how you landed in the genre that you landed in.

Lydia: 04:30 And that in my case is a pretty interesting story because it is absolutely the case that science was the last thing I would have predicted that I would do. I was the person who took the bare minimum of science classes all through high school and college. And I was intimidated by it, I didn't think I was all that interested in it. I always wanted to be a writer and I wanted to be a nonfiction writer. So I was that kid who read the New Yorker and John McPhee and things like that when I was in high school and said, 'This is what I want to do.' But science did not come into it and I have had a relatively long career. And the first half of it was all general interest journalism, kind of. I worked for People magazine, if you can believe.

Jess: 05:37 Do you feel the need to go back and comment on the important social issues of our day?

Lydia: 05:41 I so do not, but at one point, I was a London Bureau Chief at the time that Princess Diana died for People magazine. So I have this whole past as a celebrity journalist and I worked for Newsweek for a bunch of years. And it was only when I was writing my first book, so about 15 years ago, after let's say a good 15 years in journalism, I that I really sort of became a science writer. And at that point I was doing - the way I describe it as I was freelancing and I was doing those social issue features that you would find in women's magazines, like Redbook and Good Housekeeping. So maybe it was sex harassment or lead poisoning. But I came to the issue of lead from a children's health perspective more than anything. I wrote a lot about education, Jess, you'll appreciate that. And you know, I did things like that and it was in writing that first book that I suddenly found that this, it's basically a dual biography of two of the men who were way out ahead of people understanding that lead was as harmful as it was. And then they got into this massive fight with industry over it and you know, their scientific careers were almost ruined, but they fought on, they are heroes, and they got lead taken out of all kinds of things. We know now with Flint that the story's not done. I first got into this because I was interested in a guy named Herb Needleman who was a psychiatrist and was looking at lead in kids' bodies, but the other guy was a geochemist at Cal Tech. And he was the one that understood that lead was all around the environment. And I started having to read his journal articles and oh my God, they were impenetrable to me.

Jess: 07:42 It's such an education, not only just being able to get through the language, but getting at the statistics. I mean, that's a big part of understanding whether you've been looking at something worth reading or citing.

Lydia: 07:55 Absolutely. And so, the long story short was that in working on that book, though, I found that I actually was better at all of that than I thought. And I happen to think, that to some extent, my lack of background in science has worked in my favor. I am not afraid to admit complete ignorance. I do it on a regular basis with really brilliant people. And so I just keep asking questions and I think that everybody has to do that as a reporter. But you're especially humbled when you're digging into something that you don't know anything about.

Jess: 08:42 Well, and your second book, you started writing about hearing because of your own personal experience. And that happens to be the area of nonfiction that I love - when it's sort of your own personal investment and personal experience that then turns into scientific exploration. So it's not just about intellectual curiosity, it's about emotional curiosity as well. And that's what really comes through in I Can Hear You Whisper because it is also partly your story.

Lydia: 09:10 Absolutely. So I had done this one book of popular science in the lead book, but then the question is always, you know, what are you going to do next? And here was my kid, my youngest son, Alex is is now 16, but he was just little then and and he is deaf and he uses a cochlear implant. And so I kind of felt like I had this story sitting there. But then the thing that I came to realize is that because he had this cochlear implant relatively early in the world of cochlear implants that I was essentially living a cutting edge science story. And in addition to the technology piece of it, I realized it was really a story about the brain because sound getting into the brain and what comes from that oral language and literacy. And I'm thrilled that the book is in your literacy section, by the way. That's just perfect. But you know, there was so much that I didn't know about deafness, and hearing, and sound, and reading and how it's all related until I had a kid. I mean, the first deaf kid I ever knew was my own son (in any meaningful way). So you're just starting over, and it was several years before I said, 'Oh wait, I think I really need to write about this.'.

Jess: 10:37 So your most recent book, the book that we're just really excited to talk about, this book Friendship. This came at a really, really good time for me. In the sense of one of the statistics that you quote is that the strengths of your friendships at around 50 predicts your health at 80. And I'm just about to turn 50 and I feel like I'm at a phase in my life where I have really strong friendships and so I am feeling good about my health at 80.

KJ: 11:09 Me too. I really loved that line.

Jess: 11:09 I really liked that.

KJ: 11:11 I think we're all at a moment when (and it may be sort of a cohort moment) but when everybody's looking around and just going, you know, what really matters to me is my people. Like my people, people. I mean some of those are digital people and that's cause some of those are real friendships, right? But lots of them are real people, or you know, real people that are like really right in front of you, and I just feel like this sort of decade or two of segwaying away from being able to touch the people you love when you're with them has sort of really changed our perspective in a great way and I think your book really informs that.

Lydia: 11:54 Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I do feel, and I'm hearing from people, that yes, my timing might be good here because everybody's thinking about this. People have seen the headlines that loneliness is a killer, which it is - as deadly as smoking. That's always been the story. But the flip side of what does friendship actually give us and how is it protective and how does it make us resilient? And the fact that there is a biology and an evolutionary story to friendship is the piece that most people do not know. And you know, this is a book of science. It's the science of friendship. But it is so personal and relevant to people's lives and what I hope they do is come away understanding why friendship and relationships are as important as diet and exercise for your health. And I'm not trying to add to people's burden for what they have to do. I think instead, I'm hoping to give them permission to go hang out with your friends. Your body will thank you.

KJ: 13:01 Well, I have questions about how you pitched the book because it has that dual identity, but let's not start there, right, Jess?

Jess: 13:13 I know KJ and I have some very specific questions about the way the book Friendship came about in terms of not just the pitch, but also the funding aspect. And I wasn't sure if that's where you wanted to start, KJ, but I'm dying to know about your funding.

KJ: 13:31 Which came first, Lydia?

Jess: 13:31 Lydia has funding from the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation and every nonfiction writer wants to know, Oh my gosh, how can I get money to do this project? Because research is expensive. In fact yesterday I was just thinking about this because someone texted me yesterday saying, 'If I don't get a book contract soon, I'm not going to be able to write this book because I'm out of money to put into the resources.' This is actually an AmWriting listener, so hopefully she's listening to this episode. And I texted back, 'I just dumped almost 200 bucks on a textbook that I must have in order to just make sure I'm really where I need to be with the research.' So how on earth did you get the funding and which came first - the contract for the book or the funding for the book?

Lydia: 14:20 The contract for the book came first. So I had a contract with Norton and I had an advance, but I will say it wasn't a stellar advance. My advances - so I've had three and they are all over the place and the middle one was by far the biggest. And so I was a little disappointed not to get more this time, but it also meant I had to get my butt in gear and get more money if I was going to do this. So fortunately the Sloan Foundation does do these grants for science writers, in particular. They are also (since a lot of this audience is female) people might be happy to know that they are looking to support female science writers and they are looking to support projects that are about women. In my case, this book is not specifically about women, but there happened to be quite a lot of female scientists featured in the book. They're kick ass, they're wonderful and they are all through the book. And so the combination of my being a female science writer and what I was writing about, they happily gave me a grant. The only thing I wish is that I had applied a little earlier. Since you all like to get into the nitty gritty of things, you have to make up a budget and there is a lag time from when you apply to when (should you be so fortunate as to get any money) when you start getting money. And so my budget, I originally had it for an entire calendar year that I was going to be writing the book. But I discovered that it couldn't start until, let's say I originally said January to December and then in fact, and I had like a monthly salary for myself in there, and then it turned out that they said, 'Well, our fiscal year is June, so you can't start till June 1st. So I basically had to lop off five months' worth of that money I was asking for, so had I known and gotten the application in even just a few months earlier, I probably could have made it from January to December and gotten myself more money. So let this be a reminder to not let this stuff linger.

Jess: 16:43 Well can you apply for funding before you have a book contract or did they require you to have the book contract before you apply?

Lydia: 16:49 You know, I can't remember exactly. I do believe that you can do it either way, but they did want a copy of my contract. So if you don't have a contract, I think there are some other requirements. I'm forgetting. it's been a little while since I did all that. And I will say, the reason I was aware of this in the first place was because I had met one of the people from the Sloan Foundation at at a party, at the World Science Festival here in New York several years earlier. And at that point my previous book I Can Hear You Whisper would have been perfect because they also are very interested in technology and the science of technology and things like that. But I didn't know about their grant program in time. Now in that book, I happen to have gotten a healthy advance, so that was okay. So the time around, I said, 'All right, I'm gonna write to him.' They added some money in order for me to be able to hire a science advisor who actually was one of the people who's featured in the book, but I paid him. It's Robert Seyfarth, it says so in the book so I can say, he's one of the leading primatologists in this work. And he would have read some of the book ahead of time anyway, but he read it all multiple times and was so in my corner and so helpful. And also so demanding and critical. I could see what it would be like to be their graduate students. So anyway, but it was so helpful and I wouldn't have done that if it hadn't been for the Sloan Foundation request. But it was really helpful.

Jess: 18:49 Maybe we'll include the link for applying for these kinds of grants in the show notes so the people can know exactly what we're talking about.

KJ: 18:55 I think the Kaiser Foundation does something similar, too. I know they do it for journalism.

Lydia: 19:04 I'll have a look and see. At one point I did find a link that had kind of a list of grants and fellowships that give you some money. I'll see if I can find it for you. But at the Sloan Foundation it is through the public interest piece cause it doesn't sort of jump out and say books right away. So just FYI to people. It does have to be pretty sciency for Sloan. but there are, as KJ just said, there are these other things like Kaiser that maybe if it's more health related and other things. You know, there's more out there than I think people realize.

Jess: 19:41 Absolutely. There's USC Annenberg School does it for health writing as well. There's just a bunch of great places to go. So, you have the money, you have the book contract, and so you get started on the research. The question I get most often from the nonfiction writers is (and the reason I talk about it so much) is about organization of research. And I have a multipart question having to do with this. But how do you organize your research?

Lydia: 20:11 Not as well as you, Jess. I look at what you do and I when you show pictures of your shelves, I think, Oh boy. That's something to aspire to. So one thing that I do is that I am still the kind of person who prints out everything. I just find it very, very hard. First of all, I would like to make sure I have the hard copy. And when I'm reading through complicated scientific work, I find it a lot easier to do it with a pencil in my hand and kind of marking it up. And I don't know, it helps me. Maybe I'm showing my age, I'm just over 50. I'm 53 now as of three weeks ago. I do plenty online, so I have piles of files. For this book. I filed everything according mostly to the individuals that were at the forefront of whatever piece of science it was I was writing about, or by subject, if that made sense. Like social media. I have a couple of files about the science of social media that were by subject. I think that the trick about research, cause I can go so deep, and there's always more to research. And so figuring out when to stop...

Jess: 21:44 That actually leads to my next question. Someone specifically asked, how do you know when it's time to stop and when it's time to start the writing? Because the research can go on forever, as you stated.

Lydia: 22:01 Yes. So for me it has been very important. There comes a point where I decide to start writing, in part to figure out whether I'm done with my research or not. Because there are holes sometimes that pop up when you start to actually write it and you think you might think you've got everything. So this book, people will see, mixes animal research and human research because there's been a lot of both in this subject and the animal research is actually where the big strides and understanding biology and evolution have taken place, in terms of social behavior. But I will say that I went to a whole bunch of conferences about monkeys and apes. And finally I was at one and I said, you know, Lydia, you've done enough, you know enough about monkeys, you have permission to stop on this front. And so that was just one piece of it. But I knew I was going like sort of too far down. But then writing helps me to discover. I mean by that point you may not have heaps of time to really go far on some new tangent. But for instance, the social media chapter, there was new work happening right up until the last second. And so I was changing that chapter quite a bit between having turned in my book and turning back in the first past proofs. Because there was new science and I had been to new conferences and been talking to new people.

Jess: 23:37 I actually just hit pause on editing a chapter because of that textbook I mentioned. And then three or four new studies and one meta study that just came out. And in order to make sure that what I'm writing about today and fingers crossed you know, when the book comes out is as up to date as possible. But it's really hard to say, well now I'm done. For me there tends to be this moment. I continue to do online classes, and webinars, and things like that. And there tends to be this moment where I'm listening to the webinar and I'm like, I know all this and that's when I know, okay, if I know this it's probably time for me to put a lid on researching this topic.

Lydia: 24:22 I think that is exactly right. And I have definitely had that experience, too. But I will also say that there are some pieces of it where, especially with science, where if you're feeling that your grasp is maybe not as strong as you'd like it to be, but sometimes you do just have to wade in. I mean, I do anyway. And see where it goes and see how... My problem in my writing often, is that I have a tendency to get into the weeds and then I have to cut all that out, but I've got to write it. I've got to write it. This is not relevant to the organization and research, but I do feel that an important thing about writing about science and even if you don't really write about science, if you adopt a little bit of a science writer's approach, you're really forced to think about whether your audience is with you. And whether you've given them enough handholding, and enough signposting so that they can follow along with the story, and what's important, and why, and what's not. And so then when I go back over what I've written, I'm usually trying to figure out, tracking along with someone who doesn't know it as well as I do and see, do they really need to know this?

Jess: 25:50 I was going to say, that's the question I constantly have. Which is when I was going through and I realized, oh my gosh, I have a chapter that's like 20,000 words. Does my reader really need to know how many casks of beer there were on that first ship that sails?

KJ: 26:07 That's our new standard for too much research is if you know the details of what was in the hold of the first ship that your topic involved. Yeah, that's it. We've got a black line there, people. This is good.

Jess: 26:40 The problem with me is I love those details. And in some places it paints an incredible picture, like your ability to say here's how many bananas might be useful, but for the most part it's really important to say, does my reader, does my listener need to know this thing in order to understand the broad concept? And that's usually my last pass edit when I'm cutting is, oh wait a second, these next four paragraphs are so irrelevant to anything.

Lydia: 27:15 Just for the record, I want to state that part of why I had that detail and part of my point in the story was that these monkeys were a source of fascination for everybody at the time and so much so that they were featured in the New York Times at the time that they were traveling and then in Life magazine. And so I was sort of making the point that the New York Times was so interested that they counted the amount of pounds of bananas. But you're still right. They still didn't need to know that.

Jess: 27:47 The line I often say is from On Writing where Tabitha King criticizes Stephen King for writing too much about these intervening years in this one character's life. And he's like, 'Yeah, but it's really important.' And she said, 'Yeah, but you don't have to bore me with it.'.

Lydia: 28:02 Exactly. You maybe need to know it, but your reader might not need to know it.

Jess: 28:14 KJ, did you want to jump in? I've been hogging the mic.

KJ: 28:20 No, it's been great. I'm riding along and taking notes.

Jess: 28:25 Excellent. Obviously for me, this book came along at a really great time for me because I love talking about adolescents, and relationships, and friendships. But what I was most interested in with your book right now is thinking about virtual friendships and in-person friendships. And you talk a little bit about how much time you need to spend in what you call sort of togetherness makes for a friend. And there's a quote in the book about the fact that it takes 50 hours of togetherness to make a friend and 200 hours to make a best friend. So what if we spend 50 hours, you know, chatting about stuff, maybe tweeting at each other, are we allowed to still be friends or do we have to have 50 hours of in-person time?

Lydia: 29:14 We can still be friends. But I will say that what's interesting about social media is that most people, their online life and their offline life sort of mirror each other. People talk all the time about how the word friend is devalued currency by Facebook and things like that. But the truth is, most people know who their real friends are, who their closest friends are. And we sort of all have concentric circles of people really close, and then a little further out, and a little further out. And I would argue that if you only have a relationship online, it's more likely to be in the outer reaches of your social circles, which is fine. That's an important place to be. Those relationships have all kinds of benefits. But most of us, our closest friends, we use social media as kind of an extra channel to deepen the relationship but not exclusively.

Jess: 30:21 I like thinking about it that way. And you also mention that quality is important over quantity, anyway. So the quality of those relationships and you also give me a license to sort of let go of some of those fraught relationships that may not be in my best interest because you talk about the fact that ambivalent or the sort of frenemy relationships are not necessarily good for our health in the same way that all positive relationships are.

Lydia: 30:50 They turn out to be actually bad for your health, which surprised the researchers. They thought maybe the good outweighs the bad. But no, biologically speaking, if when they look at your blood pressure and the aging in your cells and your immune system, they see that relationship... So, just to define our terms since we are talking about science writing. So an ambivalent relationship is one that makes you feel both good and bad. Like a frenemy, like you said. And also it's important to say that the people who've done this research had a pretty broad way of measuring that. If you weren't a hundred percent terrific all the time about this relationship or it wasn't 100% positive, then it was ambivalent. And the truth is that's like half our relationships though, have some negative to them.

KJ: 31:43 I was going to say, that's pretty broad.

Lydia: 31:46 It is pretty broad and they're still sort of perfecting. You know, this research is relatively new, but it's kind of pointing to an interesting and important idea though. Which is that yes, we don't actually have to maintain every relationship. Like some of your older friends where you have shared history but who now are actually quite draining. Maybe you don't have to stay friends with those people. I'm giving you permission there, too. But for the relationships where you can't or don't want to end the relationship or sort of really minimize the relationship, then you should be working on the quality of it. Because that is really the critical thing. The research is so clear that the quality of relationships matters most and matters more than whether it's a relative or not. So that's another thing I think I would just like to point out about friendship is that the science kind of blurs the lines that we've always clung to about the importance of family over friends and things like that. Friends tended to be dropped down to the bottom, but we actually use the word friend. Like if you say your spouse is your best friend, you're trying to convey something about the quality of your relationship. Right? And not everybody would say that about their spouse. Some do, some don't. And in fact there's a hilarious study that found that in Jacksonville, Florida, something like 60% of the people said that their spouse was their best friend. And in Mexico city it was like 0%, which I don't think tells us about...

KJ: 33:29 It has more to do with how we define it, more than anything else.

Lydia: 33:32 Exactly. Exactly. But you know, the point is let's at least think about this.

KJ: 33:40 I like that they both start with F. It's one category for me. You know, important time with friends or family, that's one thing. That's the F section. So I wanted to come back to this question of here you were as a writer with this idea that encompassed a really deep scientific piece, but also what I think we could call a service piece. You know, the idea of friendship and how it helps us. Exactly what we're getting into talking about right now. How did you structure the pitch for this book to include both of those things?

Lydia: 34:24 So I think of myself more as a literary science writer, for lack of a better phrase. And that is a thing compared to really self-helpy science. So I wouldn't exactly say that this book, (and I didn't pitch it as self-help), and yet, if you read this book, you will absolutely come away knowing that you should invest in your friendships and here's a bunch of ways to do it.

KJ: 34:59 I wondered if there was pressure to push it in that other direction.

Lydia: 35:02 So some, and this is a constant tight rope that I feel I walk as a science writer is because yes, most of what's out there and that has a really big audience is the stuff that is so super accessible that it doesn't include a lot of the details that I find really interesting and important. I will say this. To specifically answer your question, what I did was pitch this book as the kind of friendship book that has not yet been written because it would have serious science in it. And that is what is new, and interesting, and important to know. And it sort of informs everything that's in those self-help articles. And so I was positioning myself in my pitch and it helped that my previous two books were similar. You know, so I have a certain style of writing. And if you are (like I am) a contributing editor at Scientific American, people do expect you to be on the serious side of science, but still completely accessible. I mean that is the thing - no matter who you are, you have to write it as if anybody will understand it. I try hard, you know.

KJ: 36:25 Your scientific audience is not necessarily experts in everything.

Lydia: 36:29 No. And in fact, one of the things that's really interesting is this book covers so much ground and so much territory that some of the experts in it, when they read it then said, 'Oh, but I, I love how you wrote about my piece, but I didn't know anything about this other thing.' And I found that I was bringing them together, somewhat. Because I was talking to everyone across the board, you know, not in the little silos that people tend to work in. But, I just want to say though, that there's a real tension. So, you know, my agent would say, 'You really need to come up with a way to pitch this that will appeal to everybody.' But then for instance, the Sloan Foundation, their question was how sciency will this be? Because we are only really interested in it if it is in fact a science book. But you can write a science book that has all kinds of story in it. I mean, science is story. You know, it's figuring out how we know things, and there's a lot of plot twists, and intriguing problems, and it's the evolution of thought in some ways. So I ended up deciding that I have to be me. You know, you do you, right? Don't you guys say that? And that I was pitching it as not self-help, but yet in the overview of the proposal, it really did say that this book will put friendship at the center of our lives. It will show us these important things we need to know. And one of the things I say a lot is that is that we think we know all about friendship because it's familiar. But in fact there's a huge amount we don't know. And also we do not in fact prioritize it always quite to the extent that we think we do. And so those kind of larger statements that are in the proposal and that I talk about when I do publicity are very much about sort of trying to pull people in and tell them why this is relevant to their lives.

Jess: 38:36 I think one of the reasons that I loved - I mean I love this book - but I really loved I Can Hear You Whisper because there was this really personal element and that I love reading science books that are also part memoir and that's also a really difficult line to walk. In fact, the book I'm editing now turned out to be so much more memoir than I ever expected it to be. In fact, I was really scared of it becoming a memoir and yet all of a sudden now I'm at the other end after a couple of years and it is very much a memoir. So much so that we've amped up that side of it. But I think that's what makes the science personal. And I think that's what helps people say, 'Oh, Oh, so that's why it matters. That's why these numbers matter. That's why these statistics matter because they're about personal stories.' And I think you do a beautiful job of walking that line, which can be really hard to see sometimes.

Lydia: 39:27 It can. And thank you, I appreciate that. I will just point out (as a sort of craft example) that the introduction to this book starts on this island in Puerto Rico where people are studying monkeys and that's a pretty surprising place to start a book on friendship you might think. And yet, I think it's interesting because it's surprising, and it makes for a really great scene, and it also sort of signals that this is a new way of thinking about friendship. So I wrote all that with some other stuff about the big picture stuff in that intro. But I ended that chapter with me coming back from Puerto Rico and finding my then 17 year old son on the couch with his best friend where they were playing video games and it felt like they had never left from when I went to Puerto Rico to when I came back. It was as if they had never left. So there's a scene there in which I am doing the typical parent thing of don't you guys have anything better to do? And don't you ever get up off this couch and all that stuff. And then I suddenly realized, and this did really happen, I said, 'Oh wait, hang on a minute, Lydia. They look a lot like those monkeys you were just watching in that they are hanging out together, and they are laughing, and they're joking, and they're literally sitting in proximity on the couch, and maybe you are only seeing the video game as a parent and you are not seeing the visceral connection that is going on between these kids. And so I put that scene at the end of that first chapter or the introduction specifically to get at exactly what you're asking about. To show why and how this stuff is useful in thinking about our own lives and our own relationships and friendships.

Jess: 41:20 And that's great storytelling. I just, I love that. I am smiling from ear to ear. I mean, to me that's when you have those moments when you're writing. I talk about this all the time about that buzz, when you really feel like, oh my gosh, it's happening. The writing is coming together. And in those moments where you say, 'That's the story.' That's when my heart just flutters. I just get so excited.

Lydia: 41:46 Exactly. I tried to do that all through this book. I didn't really want to just sort of throw in a whole lot of random people that you only meet briefly. So I decided that the memoir part, I do have sort of myself, and my family, and my good friends kind of sprinkled through the book because that seemed like the most organic way to get at what's true about relationships. And I fully recognize that we are a little subsection, that doesn't make it a diverse thing. But that's not the point. The point is just to sort of provide those kinds of moments of recognition and resonance for readers.

Jess: 42:31 That's what it's all about. Speaking of which, cause we are getting to the end of our time. I hate making these jarring transitions cause I could talk about this book for ages because I love it so much and I love science writing so much, but we are running out of time and so I would love to talk about what you have been reading and what KJ and I have been reading. Do you have anything you'd like to shout out book wise?

Lydia: 42:53 I would love to. On the sciency front, I have been reading Susannah Cahalan's new book, The Great Pretender. Have you read it?

Jess: 43:04 I'm really excited because I loved Brain on Fire.

Lydia: 43:06 Yes. And this is such an interesting book because it really is about the history of psychiatry and mental health. But it's this totally great story about a study that was done years ago that kind of where they sent sane people into insane asylums essentially, and tried to reveal. You know, it was like the investigative journalism of science about what does it take to get out of an insane asylum?

Jess: 43:38 But that's why I haven't started reading it yet. Because frankly, I know about this experiment. In fact, we were looking at the book and my husband pointed to it and he said, 'Oh, I know that experiment.' And he was explaining it to me and I said, 'That is terrifying to me.' Like being a sane person in an insane asylum and then having to like prove that you're not insane, yet that makes you look insane. That whole concept freaks me out.

Lydia: 44:05 And then there's a real plot twist though in this whole book. But it turns out that that study is not everything that we thought it was. And so there's an extra. So anyway, there's that book and I also just want to say in addition to science and all the other things, I'm a rabid fan of mysteries and thrillers. And so I read like one a week and this week it was called The Ruin by Dervla McTiernan. Have you heard of her? She's Irish, living in Australia. And that's why I was so thrilled because it's really great. Those Irish, man, they know how to do crime and thrillers. And The Ruin came out in 2018, it was her first one. There's already another one and it's really good stuff.

Jess: 44:49 Oh, I'm going to be listening to that one I can already tell. Speaking of which, actually, I had never let myself get sunk into. And I mentioned it one time before on the podcast, but I abandoned it. I'm finally going back to the very first Joe Gunther novel by Archer Mayer. And it started his whole path about writing mysteries in Vermont. This one is called Open Season and there's a little introduction in the audio book explaining that he was trying to write this whole book with intrigue and all these spies and people all over the place and it was set in some far flung locale. And then he realized that it really needed a sense of place and Vermont became that place and the story became much simpler and it became a much more intimate story. And it became about Vermont and the people of Vermont and the things that happened there. And so I'm now in. The book Open Season. I'm like halfway through and I'm really, really enjoying it and loving, sort of getting that sense of place in Vermont. It's really cool. KJ, what do you have?

KJ: 45:57 I just finished Eleanor Oliphant Is Completely Fine. And it took me two tries at this one. I have many thoughts. I have so many thoughts, it's practically a podcast episode. So if you read the back of it, she's a little dry and she doesn't know how to interact with other people. And this was catnip to me. I really like that sort of thing. And you know, she's going to learn how to like it's, it's so, it feels like that. And then you read the comments at the bottom and it's like, you know, move over. So I felt sort of betrayed by the marketing and the first time I was just like, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not ready for, you know, dealing with this person's emotional journey away from their history of child abuse, which is actually really good. And then I picked it back up again a couple of months later when I did feel more mentally prepared for that, I guess. And I mean, I don't know if it's triggering or not because this is not my history. But it's a fun read in a very weird sort of way, but the marketing is more than a little bizarre.

Jess: 48:22 So Lydia, your your release is coming up and this podcast is going to go up right around your book release. What kind of festivities do you have planned for your book release?

Lydia: 48:31 My local bookstore, Community Bookstore in Park Slope, Brooklyn. Oh, they're so wonderful. And they have been with me from day one with my first book and I will be there with the writer Steven Johnson doing a Brooklyn launch. And then I will be doing a Manhattan launch with the writer Randy Hutter Epstein, who is also a friend. They're all friends. I called on all my friends to do my events. And Community is great. I just have to say, when my last book came out, they actually put a chalkboard out on the sidewalk that said, Lydia Denworth's new book is here. And I was never felt so special. I'm famous in a 10 block square radius. I mean literally 10 blocks square, that's it. But in that 10 blocks, I was worthy of a chalkboard. I was a rock star. And that made me feel special and like a real writer. And so I will love them forever.

Jess: 49:23 There's nothing better than having been a bookstore that has your back and is really pulling for you. And I say that as a person who's where my local bookstore put my book up on a stand by itself with many, many copies for almost a year after its release. And that bookstore does not exist anymore. And I am so sad. KJ, did you have something?

KJ: 49:47 Oh, I was going to say before we close out, I'm going to confess to where I was while you were while you were describing your latest read, which was, I was looking for a book that I think Lydia will love because the minute she said those Irish, they really know how to do the dark. I went, Oh, Sarah Stewart Taylor's new book, The Mountains Wild, for which she learned to speak Irish and went to Ireland and did all kinds of things. So I've already emailed you the link, sounds like it will be right up your alley. I'll pop it in the show notes, too.

Jess: 50:19 Her mysteries are wonderful. She has a whole series that's already been out and she talks about doing a lot of research in order to write her mystery. She goes deep, she goes seriously deep.

Lydia: 50:29 Well, and there's a lot of science in mysteries and thrillers, too. So, you know, it's everywhere. It's everywhere.

Jess: 50:35 Alright, well this has been just delightful. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you, Lydia?

Lydia: 50:42 The easiest place is my website, which is lydiadenworth.com. I'm pretty much the same everywhere. So I do (and I know you've talked about this) I have an author page and a personal page, and I don't really follow people on my personal page. So the author page is Science Writer Lydia.

Jess: 51:04 Alright, everyone, until next week, keep your butts in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 194: #PutAPriceOnIt Jan 17, 2020

Struggling to put a price on your time? Jess and Sarina (an economist and former trader on Wall Street) help your find that elusive number.

A listener asked Jess for advice on consulting fees, so in order to find an answer more satisfying than, “It depends,” Jess and Sarina get down to economic brass tacks. Sarina explains how publishers or anyone else who wants to hire you for your writing value your time, and how you can propose a figure that takes everything from opportunity costs to fungibles into account. In an attempt to make pricing your time less complicated and emotionally fraught, Jess offers a simple formula to nail down a number that represents your hourly worth.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, the #WritersTopFive that will be dropping into #AmWriting supporter inboxes on Monday, January 20, 2020 is ONE OF THE BEST YET: Top 5 Ways to Win at Newsletter Subject Lines. So sign up, support the podcast you love AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month. (If you’re on KJ’s mailing list and have been impressed by her style lately—she read this early and took it to heart.)

As always, this episode (and every episode) will appear for all subscribers in your usual podcast listening places, totally free. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it with the shownotes and a transcript every time there’s a new episode.

To support the podcast and help it stay free, subscribe to our weekly #WritersTopFive email.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess: MasterClass and The Collected Schizophrenias Esmé Weijun Wang (and her Twitter feed)

Sarina: The Lager Queen of Minnesota by J. Ryan Stradal

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, where January is Become a Book Coach Month. Sign up for mighty and wondrous Business of Book Coaching Summit here—or visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwriting for details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

NEWS ABOUT US

Watch KJ’s latest in the #BooksThatWon’tBumYouOut series on Instagram HERE.

Find more about Jess here and Sarina here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

The image in our podcast illustration is by TK

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ: 00:01 Hey writers, it's KJ this week. Jess and Sarina recorded without me, but you'll barely even have a chance to miss me because I'm both right here and back next week. While they recorded I was off to a hockey tournament in Ottawa, but it didn't mean I wasn't writing. You have heard me talk about Jennie Nash's Inside Outline before and this was the tool that's really pushed me through a tough novel writing spot and has me feeling like I'm able to move forward, even if the muse is not present and mine definitely doesn't do Canada. Even if the hotel is depressing, and the weather is dreary, and I'm really not feeling it. Because I know where this book and I are going, I can still sit down and at least nudge us both in the direction of getting there. And if things change along the way, as they do, and have, and will, I can see where those changes fit in and what will happen when I make them. In fact, for this book (at least as it stands now) I've written about 17 outlines, which is a whole lot better than 17 books. So, if you're feeling the least bit stuck on your project, try applying the inside outline to what you've already written and to the scenes to come. It just might be exactly what you need to get over the finish line. #AmWriting listeners have exclusive access to a free download that describes what the outline is, why it works, and how to do it. You can find it at authoraccelerator.com/amwriting. Is it recording?

Jess: 01:36 Now it's recording. Go ahead.

KJ: 01:37 This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone and try to remember what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess: 01:41 Alright, let's start over.

KJ: 01:43 Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Now one, two, three.

Jess: 01:54 Hey, I'm Jess Lahey and this is #AmWriting. The podcast about writing, about querying, about pitching, about what else? What else do we write here?

Sarina: 02:05 Finishing.

Jess: 02:06 Finishing things. That seems like such a long way off. Finishing things, but essentially really this is just the podcast about sitting down and getting the work done.

Sarina: 02:18 I'm Sarina Bowen and I'm the author of 30-odd romance novels and you can find more of my work at sarinabowen.com.

Jess: 02:25 And again, I'm Jess Lahey, I'm the author of the Gift of Failure and a forthcoming book, The Addiction Inoculation, Raising Healthy Kids in a Culture of Dependence coming out in spring of 2021 and a book I'm not ready to talk about, but I'm already researching for the year after that. And KJ you may have noticed is not here today. She's at a hockey tournament. So it's just Jess and Sarina today talking about a near and dear to Sarina's heart in particular since she has the background in economics. And one that makes me want to throw up sometimes - about your value, getting paid, how much you get paid, how much you quote, how you ask people, how you value your time. It came up because in this month's Poets and Writers is an article called Finance 101 for Writers. And part of that article included a worksheet for valuing your time and I took a picture of it and I texted it to you and I said, 'This does not seem right to me.'

Sarina: 03:39 Yes and I had harsher words for it.

Jess: 03:42 Okay, so essentially what this worksheet (by the way, I will say that the new issue of Poets and Writers, I guess the November, December, 2019 has some fantastic articles in it) I'm not dissing the magazine, but I am dissing the worksheet, but let's talk about it as a starting place. The worksheet itself asks you to figure out your expenses, and how much your life costs, and therefore how much your time is worth based on what your life costs, like what you would have to make per hour in order to justify spending an hour on something other than, I don't know, your main job or writing an article that can get you paid or whatever the thing is. And what's the problem with that?

Sarina: 04:26 Well, the problem is that somebody who lives in an inexpensive rural place is always going to, according to this worksheet anyway, price themselves down. And that's because there's a cost that the sheet is not picking up and it's pretty much our entire discussion here, which is opportunity costs.

Jess: 04:44 What is an opportunity cost, Ms. Economy?

Sarina: 04:47 Well, it's the term for exactly what it sounds like, which is what is the cost of what you're not doing in order to do the thing you're trying to price.

Jess: 04:56 Right, which is something I was thinking about yesterday as I was not editing my manuscript. Because if I hand in my edited manuscript, I will get the next installment of my payment from my advance, from my book. And instead I was cleaning up my Twitter stream, cleaning up my follows, and all that sort of stuff on Twitter.

Sarina: 05:18 So, opportunity cost of zero there, right?

Jess: 05:20 Exactly.

Sarina: 05:20 But also I have the benefit of having worked on Wall Street for 12 years. Where I was a trader of derivatives and everything there is really calculable. So it's one of the only careers where you can see on a day to day basis how much money you've made for the firm. And how valuable you are. Now also, that number isn't as measurable as it appears because some of that is franchise value. Like a monkey sitting in your chair could make a certain baseline amount and your real value is how much more than a monkey, you know. Anyway.

Jess: 05:55 So it's sort of like monkey plus Sarina.

Sarina: 06:01 But the thing about that culture is that you're always measurable at any moment and you're not afraid to measure it. Like you can see on the page, Hey, I made $7 million trading this year, so my bonus should look like some fraction of $7 million. But of course that's not how it works. The goal (somebody told me early on) was for management to pay you exactly the minimum that you'll accept without walking out the door to go someplace else. And if you think about it, book advances are just the same. So if your publisher is saying yes to your book or they're going to make an offer on your book, they're going to run a P and L first. Like how big is a market for this book? How much do we think we could possibly make on it?

Jess: 06:50 Which is why that section in your proposal, if you're writing, for example, as I do a nonfiction proposal, it's really important to say, here are the books that are out there, here's how my book stacks up, here's why I'm the uniquely perfect person to write this book, and here's how that will affect sales of this book.

Sarina: 07:06 Right. And if your agent is paying attention, she'll help you pick comps that performed. Because if you pick loser titles, then that doesn't work out.

Jess: 07:15 Actually, in my proposal, I had both winners and losers because I want to show how I'm different from one of those losers because they're going to find it. It's not like if I don't tell them about it, they won't know about it.

Sarina: 07:27 Right, yeah okay. So then it's their job just like on wall street to pick a number. That 1- they think they won't lose money. Like if we pay you $100,000 advance then are we going to lose our shirts, but also to pay you just $1 more than the next best bid.

Jess: 07:47 So in the conversation we're having now, just to sort of guide you through this conversation, at first we're talking about what your writing is worth for example, to a publisher. I also want to have a conversation about as a writer, how I decide, for example, what my speaking fee or my consulting fee because sometimes that comes up. If you write nonfiction, as I do, and you become an expert in something, people may come to you and say, 'Hi, we would like to buy your time.' And that seems to be the really wiggly part of this because I talked to my husband last night (he was recently asked to be a consultant for someone) and I said, 'How did you value your time?' And he said, 'Well, I went to someone at the hospital and asked what the going rate was for a physician on this topic and they told me.' And I said, 'Well, here's the thing, I'm going to have to come up with a number and I have nowhere to turn.' And it seems really relative to me, not only relative based on myself, but based on who's asking. So it's not like with a publisher where I say for example, my publisher, Harper Collins, and I don't have to worry about how much money they have. They have a pot of money to pay their authors. And I don't question how much money Harper Collins has, but I do question, for example, if I'm going to pitch my services to a for profit company versus a nonprofit company, or a school versus a private individual who can fly me somewhere and it's not going to make a huge dent, so that's why I think for writers in particular, plus so many of us just feel so darn grateful that we get to write words and make any money for it, that suddenly all these weird value judgements, and shame, and undervaluing ourselves comes into it. Which is why I'm so jealous of the whole, here's how much I made for the firm and here's the very basic, the bottom level of what you can pay me without me walking out the door. Because that's a big question mark for so many places and why it's been such a relief to hand the negotiation for my speaking stuff over to an agent, who has some of that background information about what organization's budget is before. So anyway, let's talk about that a little bit.

Sarina: 10:04 So I have a response to a couple of those things. And one is that yes, I will cheerfully speak at a Romance Writers of America conference for 150 bucks or whatever because I know that they just don't pay up for speakers and I'm going to get something else out of going there. The Goodwill of my fellow authors and maybe I'll learn something as well. So there are those moments when you just put aside your time calculation, but because you've chosen to.

Jess: 10:36 Right. For example, I will be speaking next year at South by Southwest EDU and South by Southwest/South by Southwest EDU, they don't pay. They just don't, no one gets paid. I was their big marquee keynote and I did not get paid. They put me up for one night, but that's sort of understood. There are certain places - you're not going to get paid to do TED, you're not going to get paid to do South by Southwest. There are just certain places that just do not pay. Hello, that's just sort of part of it.

Sarina: 11:07 Right. And we make those choices anyway. And that's why also if you've been asked to write a blog post for $100, you have to look at who's asking, right? Like, Nancysblog.com. You know, maybe you won't be able to say yes to that, but if it's the New York Times or the Atlantic who's asking, there might be other reasons why you would want to say yes.

Jess: 11:32 And it's funny you say $150 because when I started writing at the New York Times that's pretty much what I was getting paid. So you mentioned opportunity costs - could you give like a really just a description of what a definition for what opportunity costs are - just really quickly again.

Sarina: 11:50 Sure. Well, opportunity cost is the price that you could be making doing something else with that same amount of time.

Jess: 11:58 Does that take into account - for example, if I write for the New York Times, as a freelancer I am still expected to adhere to their journalistic ethics rules, which means that there are a lot of places I'm not allowed to speak as a speaker. It doesn't matter actually, their theory is if you're a full time writer there on staff versus a freelancer no one really knows the difference. Like the average reader is not going to know the difference. So I (as a total freelancer, with no benefits, no job security) I can't take a speaking gig with let's say for example Microsoft. Because the New York Times is probably going to write about Microsoft and there is this appearance of impropriety or that kind of thing. So, I then am undermining my future ability to earn in speaking.

Sarina: 12:57 So that all goes into your opportunity cost. And that's a pretty unusual one. Like most writers who are listening to our podcast aren't hemmed in like that.

Jess: 13:07 You would be surprised. You know, some places are a little more forward about it than others. But for example, like I said at the New York Times you have to sign something, the ethics stuff and you have to read this whole document that they resend out every once in a while just to remind you hello, just to remind you. And if you were to scratch deeper, I think a lot of places that should be doing that more with their freelancers, don't. But you would be surprised.

Sarina: 13:38 Well, I did sign that thing once and I remember specifically that you are not allowed to be a travel writer who takes trips anywhere and still write anything for the New York Times. That wasn't a problem for me.

Jess: 13:51 Part of the rule is also you really can't take money from anyone who might possibly be the subject of a future New York Times story, which is everybody. I mean, really, I mean obviously there are a lot. So that was one of the major reasons that I gave up my column at the New York Times after three years is that it was so restrictive in terms of my ability to write.

Sarina: 14:15 Well that's all opportunity costs. And the way that we come across our real opportunity costs is different for every writer. So I have five years worth of data on what I make when I write a novel. And I began to look at that in terms of what was my pay rate per word? Because before I was writing novels, I was doing some nonfiction for magazines.

Jess: 14:44 How can you know that immediately afterwards? Like that you would have to have a lot of accumulated data in order to do that.

Sarina: 14:49 Well, I do though. So I can look at books that I wrote in the past, and I can look at books that I wrote last year, and I can say what was my total take each time I managed to finish an 80,000 word novel? And what do I get paid? And I know roughly what it is.

Jess: 15:04 And you know how long it takes you to write X number of words. So you could come up with an hourly rate for your time.

Sarina: 15:10 Yes, or at least a daily rate. Like if I make 1200 day word count, I know roughly how much that's worth going forward in my life. So if I took a day off to write 1200 words for somebody else, I know roughly what I've just handicapped myself. Or here's where it gets interesting - if I accept my French publisher's invitation to go to a reader convention in Lille (which I turned down this year) and it's six days of my life, well that's like a really expensive trip. Even if they pay for everything and I meet a lot of cool French people.

Jess: 15:46 This comes up a lot when I'm asked to speak, for example, in the middle East or Australia. One of the reasons that I have not gone to speak in Australia is that by the time they pay to get me there, we're pretty much at my fee that they would also then have to pay on top of that. So it's an extraordinarily expensive proposition.

Sarina: 16:05 I was actually offered a romance convention in Australia with travel paid and I've found that there was yet one more kind of opportunity cost, which is my family would be so deeply hurt if I went to Australia without them.

Jess: 16:19 Well, and then on top of that, is, you know, if I'm going to Australia, there's not just the travel time, there's the recovery time. Honestly, after I've been on the road for a while, there for a day or two my brain is dead anyway.

Sarina: 16:34 Right and you're one of those rare people who can write on a plane.

Jess: 16:37 Not often, I'm just not good at it. As we have discussed in the past, I'm terrible about writing on the road.

Sarina: 16:43 So, I have an idea of what my days are worth. And sometimes when you're developing like a second stream of income, which is obviously a wonderful thing to do if you're a freelancer, right? So I have this sideline consulting business where I help other people publish their stuff. And sometimes, I have discovered by accident that my rate is too low. Because if I'm feeling kind of busy and I suddenly quote a more expensive rate and then the person doesn't blink, then my understanding of what that consulting work is worth just notches up a little bit. So that's useful.

Jess: 17:21 There's also another interesting thing that happens is I was feeling pretty good about a rate that I secured for a talk and I went to my group of people (my other speakers who are about in the same position. They also had bestselling books. They also have about the same amount of experience speaking. You know, they're sort of my wing people.) And I was feeling pretty good about the rate that I got. And then I found out that one of them got more. And now, no matter what, moving forward, I have this sort of chip on my shoulder about that event and I'm going to just chalk it up as experience to ask first.

Sarina: 18:05 On wall street we would've called that tuition. That's the tuition you paid.

Jess: 18:10 Believe me, with speaking there had been a lot of tuition payments that I've paid over time.

Sarina: 18:16 Yeah. And sometimes the opportunity cost is really only emotional. Like if I open Facebook right now, I'll probably see somebody announced that their romance novel is going to be a Netflix special in 2021. So, that's like emotional tuition. You know, get off social media because 1 - it's opportunity cost of your time and 2 - you will just feel bad if you look.

Jess: 18:37 So for example, time reading the comments, not good use of your time. As we try to be as concrete and as helpful as possible, I wanted to talk about a very particular scenario and I wanted to get your take on it. So let's say that a person comes to me and says, 'Hi, what should I charge as a consultant?' This is a total hypothetical (although I get asked about fees all the time and it's a really hard conversation for me because sometimes in consulting you can give an hourly rate or you could give a flat fee for a particular event or project.) Most of the time people are asking me about what should I ask for speaking. And so I'm going to do that one first. So if you're new to speaking (and I had to actually email the person who is now my agent who was not my agent at the time) because I did not know even what to quote as a price for our first time keynote, I had no idea. And she said, toss $5,000 out there and see what happens. And at the time I'm like, 'Oh, well that's embarrassing. Am I worth that? I've never done this before.' And I tossed 5,000 at them and they said, 'Respectfully, you are totally worth that, but we can't afford that. Here's what we can afford and we'll put you up.' And it wasn't $5,000, but it was fairly close and that was great. So I usually say to a first time speaker throw $5,000 out there and see what happens. I happen to know that even schools with small budgets can usually pull off $5,000, given certain parameters. Consulting is a little harder because given also who your audience is $5,000 for a talk I think is fair. Whether it's a nonprofit, whether it's a school, whether it's a for profit. Obviously if it's a super successful law firm, you can go higher than that. But for a first time keynote, $5,000 seems about right. But then you get into consulting and you get into situations where it's an individual asking for your services. For example, in a situation I end up with a lot is people asking me if I will consult one-on-one with a family to talk about parenting stuff. The answer is no, I don't do that. But I get asked a lot. Someone asked me about that recently. Another person asked me, 'Well, what if the place is a nonprofit, a place that I would be very likely to donate money to?' For example, I've worked for Vermont Public Radio, I've worked for the Albert Schweitzer Fellowship, a place I send money every single year. And it's really hard for me to take money from a place like that because, I don't know, I feel like it's just money swapping places. Just feels really weird versus a corporation. So talk us through a little bit. Is there a way to figure out, from a consulting perspective, like what you should ask and how much do you figure in who the client would be?

Sarina: 21:50 Well, the concept you're grappling with is the fungibility of money and time.

Jess: 21:55 And what does that mean?

Sarina: 21:56 That all of your money is fungible, usable in one spot as opposed to in another. So, humans have been demonstrated to be quite bad at something called mental accounting. Which is in our minds, we move money around in buckets and put little walls around it, when there really isn't. And it's actually quite necessary to one's health. Because there are these days when I'm standing in the food co-op thinking, 'Wow, the organic onions cost $3 a pound and the traditional onions are $1.50, can I afford the extra $1.50? And then I'll go home and somebody will show me a BookBub that costs $957 and I'm like, 'Yeah, take my money.' So, you know, if I were to stand in the grocery store and ask myself how many books do I have to sell tomorrow to pay for the organic granola, like that is not a good place to be. You have to make some little walls and buckets to move your life around without a lot of undue anxiety.

Jess: 23:00 Well, and it helps if you don't want to actually do the thing that you're being asked about because then you can quote high without the concern that you'll upset them or that they'll say no and never want to work with you again. But, what if it's someone that you really do wanna work with and you're afraid (as so many writers I talk to are afraid of offending or getting the feedback that, 'Well, oh my gosh, no, we couldn't even possibly.')

Sarina: 23:28 Well, first of all, this is going to happen at some point and you're just going to have to survive it. But when you said that first time speaker fee and you were told to throw out $5,000. I could hear how stressful that is. Because what if that's your one big shot and what if you just blew it because you said 5,000 instead of three? So it's all in the wording, right? We all know that when people speak to us or ask us for things that there's a way to put anything that is palatable...

Jess: 23:58 I used to do it in my proposals for speaking engagements. I would say this is my fee, but I am a teacher and I understand school budgets, and so if you can't afford that fee, let's talk. That was my sort of my way of giving them that, 'Yeah, yeah, but pat on the back, don't worry, we can still have a conversation.'

Sarina: 24:16 Right. So 'let's talk' is better language than 'or best offer'. Like when you see things on the list serve and it says asking $412 or best offer and you're thinking, 'Oh honey,' you know somebody's going to come in and try to get that for half that price. So yeah, so let's talk is really powerful. Like I might need to jot that down...

Jess: 24:37 I wanted to add also that it doesn't get easier (for me anyway). I mean, I have more information now than I used to in terms of who can afford what, but that's a matter of experience and time. I worked for amazon.com as a consultant on the Stinky and Dirty Show and we arrived at a fee for services, which over two seasons. You know, that first season, everything took me forever, and reading scripts was hard, and I couldn't visualize anything, and I wrote a ton of notes on everything, and I probably only made minimum wage that year. Whereas season two, I was much better at it and I did much better. So in my brain, I kind of averaged the two. Exactly, the first season was tuition. And that negotiation worked pretty well because they were skilled negotiators, which actually helped me a little bit because I didn't feel so embarrassed doing the negotiation because it was part of the process. But when I'm talking to a single person, especially in a nonprofit, and they're less skilled in their negotiation and I always feel a little apologetic.

Sarina: 25:48 Well, sure. So I get asks to go and speak at, for example, RWA functions all the time, like Saratoga Springs, Providence, Rhode Island. And these are places that if you look at a map, I'm reasonably close to, except the roads don't go from here to there. And I always turn these down, because they're on the weekends, during the school year. And it'll take me four hours to drive there and I won't enjoy it. And I just know going into that, that you have to listen to your gut. You know when it's not going to work out, almost from the first moment. So, if you say yes to things or low ball yourself, then you know how that's gonna turn out. And after you do it a couple of times, cause we all do...

Jess: 26:38 Yeah, it was a little easier for me. As I said, my husband who is physician, was asked to consult on something and I knew the price that he had quoted as sort of a professional fee that's accepted in the industry. And then I was able to say, 'Okay, well wait a second, I have a bestselling book, I have been researching this topic for 15 years now. Okay, I think it's fair for me to ask the same amount.' But also, without having sort of evidence of someone else's ask, would have been a really hard thing to do. The numbers that I tend to see out there in terms of professional, they're such a huge range. If you go online and you Google things like what should a consulting fee be, there are some websites that will give you, for HR it would be this, for marketing it would be this, so you can get kind of an idea. For writers, because what we're talking about is banking on our expertise that we've earned through lots and lots of research and experience, that can be a little bit more difficult to quantify. But, I feel like as writers, if we want to be dealt with as professionals, then we need to view ourselves as professionals, and we need to quote a number commensurate with the experience that professionals might have. And I will say one other thing, I also do pro-bono work and I love the organizations. I choose the organizations that I choose to do pro-bono work with very, very carefully because (and I'm going to say this is going to sound horrible) but in my experience, if I do something pro-bono, I am valued less. I usually get lower turnout, it's usually more work on my part because there isn't anything invested in the other side in making sure that it turns out great because it was free. It's free, so if it doesn't go great, we don't get great turnout, then it was a wash. Whereas I'm sort of expecting that people will say, 'Oh, this is free and your normal rate is whatever, thank you so much.' But that's not what happens. What happens is that I actually do better if I ask for a token amount as sort of an honorarium, because there's some investment in the other party's side. But I can tell you right now that when I undervalue myself, I am valued less by the person who is hiring me.

Sarina: 28:58 Well then we need to talk about book advances for a minute. Because this is a lot of the same stuff. So an advance, as you know, is money you receive up front and then as the book starts to sell and royalties come in, you know, it's clocked down until finally you hopefully earn out and then start receiving royalties on top of it. And there is widespread confusion on the part of even successful authors about what this all means.

Jess: 29:27 Basically my royalty statements are so confusing. I don't get royalties yet, I have not earned out my advance for the Gift of Failure. But, as you point out, there's two different, earn out my advance.

Sarina: 29:40 So hang on a second, because earning out is really only material to you. It's not material to them. So the royalty rates quoted in all of our contracts are fairly standard. And that means for each copy of a print book you sell, you are earning between 7% and 10% of the cover price. And sometimes we can have escalators, which it's fun to say this with a New York accent. I have an escalator, which means that after the first X thousand books, you get a slightly higher royalty rate. But let's just say pretty much 90% of the book contracts in the world are paying between 7 and 12% of the cover price, depending on whether it's a paperback or a hardcover or whatever.

Jess: 30:29 What if it's on sale? And it's not getting the cover price?

Sarina: 30:33 But it's the cover price, okay? So e-Books though, in that same contract, I swear to God, will say 25% of net proceeds, which does matter about being on sale. So that means your publisher is going to ship the books. It has a $30 cover price (just because that's a nice round number) and if you're getting 10% on those, that's like every time they send one out and it doesn't come back, you get three bucks. But with your e-Books, they're literally gonna look at the receipts that came in from Apple, and Amazon, and Kobo, and Barnes and Nobles' Nook and pay you the 25% of net receipts on that. So if they put the book on sale for $1.99 for a couple of weeks, then the amount of money that you earn in royalties (or counted against your advance) is 25% of 70% of $1.99. So, all of this ends up on your royalty statement, but those numbers do not reflect how happy or sad the publisher is.

Sarina: 31:37 Because they are doing a profit and loss equation in the background that you're not privy to, you never get to see it. Whereby they will be happy even if you never 'earn out' and start earning royalties because that is not the rate.

Jess: 31:54 So for example, I have not technically earned out the amount that I got for the Gift of Failure (which I had mentioned the number in an earlier podcast) but that can be okay. Because they can still be in the black for me, even before I get to the amount that I got as an advance for the Gift of Failure.

Sarina: 32:19 That's right. And if you need a concrete example of why that might be. Just think about your marginal e-book rate sale, like right this second as we sit here in the library talking about this, somebody is buying your e-book. And if it's 10 bucks, because I don't really know. Okay, but it's usually $10 and of that 10 bucks, your publisher gets about $7 and it didn't cost them anything today to sell that and they're only going to credit you with 25% of seven bucks. But that's okay because they're pretty happy to have the balance.

Jess: 33:08 As we've mentioned in earlier episodes of the podcast, I had to go out with a full proposal for this book that I am editing right now because we were worried that it's a tough topic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I had said to my husband, 'I bet you I don't get as much for this book that I did for Gift of Failure because there was buzz and it was a viral thing and blah, blah, blah.' And I got the exact same amount. So that can be a pretty good indicator to me that my publisher is happy with me.

Sarina: 33:36 Of course. And also is a good indicator for the whole wide world that earning out doesn't mean anything in terms of publisher happiness. So, remember that though it's sometimes hard to be paid a ton for something. And this is probably true for speaking engagements, too. Like if you hit the jackpot or get paid a whole slug of money for a book and then it doesn't super perform, then you're kind of in the hole with that publisher. And if you want to publish again, you might need to...

Jess: 34:09 Now when she says in the hole, this is a question I get all the time, no, you do not have to pay that money back. But from a publisher karma perspective, you're a little in the hole.

Sarina: 34:20 Like if there's a frothy, frothy auction for your book, because that was the flavor of the week, you know, and this happens and that's like both an enviable and a tricky spot to be.

Jess: 34:34 That was, and believe me, the source of much anxiety. Because if I tanked, then I don't get to write another book probably.

Sarina: 34:43 Right. Well this has happened to me.

Jess: 34:47 I wasn't going to say it.

Sarina: 34:49 Well, that's okay. My publisher basically said in 2012 or 13, like you're dead to me. And that same publisher offered me a three book deal a few years later, but under a different name.

Jess: 35:01 Alright. So we have covered how much you're worth to a publisher. We've covered ask $5,000 for your first keynote. Consulting - let's say you are an expert - so I think a safe number to throw out as a consulting fee if you're going to be an expert in education for a company that has a budget, I'd say $500 an hour is a high end, but still acceptable number that won't make people vomit.

Sarina: 35:44 So lawyer money...

Jess: 35:45 Lawyer money. Well, because remember how I just said these are the professional numbers. If you look at what money lawyers get per hour and you look at what physicians get per hour. Now the reason I say that is this, I want to point out really quickly, I know we're running out of time, but I want to point out really quickly that when I looked up, how you calculate how much your time is worth as a contractor. The calculus is this. Look at how much you make you make per year. What is your income per year? And then divide it out. Divide it by 50 weeks per year, accounting for those two weeks of vacation, divide it out by 40 hours per week. And there's your basic number of what you're worth per hour, based on how much you make, which we already talked about as a flawed calculus. But still it's a good starting place to know sort of what an hour might be worth to you. And then according to organizations that sort of this is what they do - valuing consultants, they say now triple it. Because tripling it is an important thing to do because you're not being paid benefits, there's, there's no risk being taken on by your employer. And as we just mentioned, as with the New York Times, for me, there are costs to me of taking that. So freelancers take on a lot of risk without a lot of benefit. You may have to pay for your own healthcare, you may have to pay for your own retirement. All these things, which is true, for me. And that costs a lot of money that they're not having to pay. Now, the reason that multiplying by three may not phase someone who's looking to hire you is they know they don't have to pay your benefits. They don't have to pay for your retirement, your pension, whatever. So, valuing yourself at three times what your hourly rate might be makes sense. So I'm tossing between $250 and $300 out there for experts in science, or education, or parenting, or whatever that thing is that maybe you've been recognized as 'an expert', which fraught term, but whatever.

Sarina: 37:53 I'm considered an expert in parenting. I'm considered an expert in education and therefore here is my professional rate as an expert in that field. There you go. Do we want to talk about what we've read? We didn't even discuss if we're going to talk about that, we had so much money stuff to talk.

Sarina: 38:10 I'm reading The Lager Queen of Minnesota.

Jess: 38:12 Oh, how is that? The one with the bottle cap on the cover.

Sarina: 38:14 I'm really enjoying it. It's a third person narrative. And it's a really interesting third person voice and I can't wait to tell you how I liked it when I'm done.

Jess: 38:22 I've been listening to Masterclasses, still. And I listened to part of an economics master class with my younger son who's interested in sort of wanting to be able to get up to speed to have conversations with his economists major older brother. That's been interesting. Also, I'm learning how to do makeup with the Bobby Brown.

Sarina: 38:46 I'm watching that, too.

Jess: 38:47 I'm so bad at doing my own makeup. In fact when I first started speaking, I think I had been married for at least a decade at that point. And I still had the eye shadow that I wore the day I got married, which is an indicator of how rarely I wear makeup. So there is actually a very helpful a makeup tutorial with Bobby Brown. So anyway, I've been listening to those. I've also been starting to learn Spanish. I spoke about that during our goals episode and I am happy to point out that now I have switched from having anxiety dreams about not graduating from law school to a dream I had last night about the fact that I had a Spanish exam coming up and that I had never, ever studied for it. I just finally read The Collected Schizophrenias by Esmé Weijun Wang. The Collected Schizophrenias is a collection of essays KJ insisted I read it and I love it. I tend to love essay collections anyway, but this one is by Esmé Weijun Wang. And not only is the book fantastic, her Twitter feed is really, really good, too. So you should check her out. It's a remarkable book, I'm really absolutely loving it. And it is about schizophrenia, mental illness, personal experience with that it's been a fascinating read.

Sarina: 40:40 And until we see you again, KJ, and for the rest of you, keep your butts in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess: 40:57 This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 193: #WriterDreamsComeTrue Jan 10, 2020

She writes Emmy-winning television comedy, bestselling children’s books, plays, and sentences for the Scripps National Spelling Bee. Is there nothing Jill Twiss can’t do?

Musical theater actress and stand-up comic Jill Twiss dreamed of writing for television but did not know how to break in to the world of late-night comedy shows. The stars aligned when a few supportive women called some chits on her behalf, and lo, she landed a spot in the writing room of the Emmy-award winning show, Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. Her work on Last Week Tonight has earned her multiple Emmys, WGA and Peabody Awards, and led to a series of bestselling children’s books as well as the opportunity to write humorous “Can I have that word in a sentence, please?” hints for the Scripps National Spelling Bee.

This week, Jill and Jess talk about how Jill got her start in television, her love of Vice President Mike Pence’s pet rabbit Marlon Bundo, how her children’s books came to be, their shared need for pressing deadlines, and Jill’s play-in-progress about the 1848 Seneca Falls Convention.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, you know we dropped the Top Five Ways to Find the Right Agent to pitch into everyone’s inbox last Monday. What will our supporters find there this Monday? It’s SO FRESH WE DON’T EVEN KNOW. But if you become a supporter, you will. Support the podcast you love AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month.

Want to share this one? Click here to share on Facebook, and here for an editable tweet.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess: Good Luck with That by Kristan Higgins

Jill: The World Only Spins Forward: The Ascent of Angels in America by Isaac Butler and Dan Kois

Our guest for this episode is Jill Twiss.

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver

A Day in the Life of Marlon Bundo

The Someone New

Everyone Gets a Say

The Marlon Bundo episode of Last Week Tonight (full episode):

Just the excerpt about A Day in The Life of Marlon Bundo with a clip of the animated all-star cast audiobook:

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

The image in our podcast illustration is by Kate DeCarvalho.

The music in our podcast is by Max Cohen.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ: 00:01 Hello fellow writers. The beginning of the year is a great time to think about what you really want from your writing life and if one of the things that's filled you with joy in the past is time spent encouraging, editing, and helping another writer you might want to consider becoming a book coach yourself. Our sponsor, Author Accelerator provides book coaching to authors like me, but also needs and trains book coaches. And they'll be hosting a free book coaching summit in January for anyone who wants to learn more. If that's got your ears perked up, head to authoraccelerator.com/summit. Is it recording?

Jess: 00:39 Now it's recording.

KJ: 00:40 Yay.

Jess: 00:40 Go ahead.

KJ: 00:41 This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone and try to remember what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess: 00:45 Alright, let's start over.

KJ: 00:47 Awkward pause and I'm going to rustle some papers.

Jess: 00:50 Okay.

KJ: 00:50 Now one, two, three.

Jess: 00:58 Hey, I'm Jess Lahey and this is #AmWriting. Our podcast about writing all the things, the podcast about sitting down, getting the work done and often that work looks like pitches, looks like queries, looks like invoicing so that you can get paid for all that stuff. But really this is just the podcast about the nuts and bolts of being a writer.

Sarina: 01:22 I'm Sarina Bowen, when I do my writing it's about fiction and novels. I'm the author of 30-odd romance novels and my new one is called Heartland.

Jess: 01:32 And I'm Jess, again. And my work of writing is about mostly nonfiction and I'm in the process of writing a new book and in the process of editing it. But my first book is the Gift of Failure, How the Best Parents Learn to Let Go So Their Children Can Succeed. And we are missing KJ again today. She is still hockey tournament-ing. And we are going to have an interview today with someone really, really cool. But I wanted to catch you at the beginning of this, Sarina to tell you that you and our guest today have something in common.

Sarina: 02:01 We do, what?

Jess: 02:03 So a couple of years ago you sent us a text, KJ and myself, a text about the fact that someone had gotten a tattoo in your honor. And are we still at a couple of people, two people who have tattoos of your books?

Sarina: 02:18 I know of three...

Jess: 02:19 Three people. And what do they have on their bodies?

Sarina: 02:22 Well, the first one had the cover of Him.

Jess: 02:27 Okay. Him being one of the books that you have written.

Sarina: 02:31 Right. And then another one has a quote from The Year We Fell Down.

Jess: 02:35 Oh, that's cool. A quote, I love that.

Sarina: 02:38 And hers is in French because she helped me proofread the French edition. And then I have a lovely friend, Claudia, who has a tattoo of The True North titles.

Jess: 02:49 That's just so permanent. It's so permanent. I mean, number one, you gotta be a super fan to get a tattoo of. Well the other thing is you said that one of them has The True North novels, which means this is a tattoo that will expand over time, maybe.

Sarina: 03:05 Well, perhaps...

Jess: 03:11 What if you end up writing like 70 books in this series? It'll be like all the way up her arm or his arm.

Sarina: 03:16 Yeah, but I'll be dead from writing all those. So you know, we have bigger problems...But, so tell me about our guest.

Jess: 03:24 So our guest today is Jill Twiss and she is a writer on the show Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. And she found someone who has a tattoo of a rabbit on them and that rabbit's name is Marlon Bundo. Do you know who Marlon Bundo is?

Sarina: 03:41 He's the bunny in her book.

Jess: 03:43 The bunny in her book. And we'll talk to her a little bit about that tattoo and what it was like to find out that she has landed a place of permanence on someone's body, which just to me, blows my mind. I can't even picture. It's just amazing.

Sarina: 03:57 You know what blows my mind?

Jess: 03:58 What's that?

Sarina: 03:59 If your first book in Amazon is a picture book with like 8 million reviews and went viral, like I'm so excited for this.

Jess: 04:09 I know, this is going to be great also because as you will find out when you listen to this interview, it's her first writing job.

Sarina: 04:16 That's amazing. Okay, I'm ready to have my mind blown.

Jess: 04:20 Alright, so with no further ado, here is my interview with Jill Twiss. I am here today with Jill Twiss. She is a senior writer at Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. She has a crazy, amazing story. She has Emmies, she has WGA awards, she has Peabody awards. There are some other things she does that I am so excited to talk about. I'm not going to burst the the surprise right off the bat. But Jill, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Jill: 04:52 Thank you so much for having me. I'm such a huge fan of your podcast and I'm so excited to be here.

Jess: 04:58 What was really funny was when I first asked you to be on the podcast, you were on Twitter, I was on Twitter, and we were following each other and I messaged you about being on the podcast and you were so excited. You're like, I'm a fan. And I'm like, I'm a fan. So we got to fan girl a little bit. It was very, very exciting.

Jill: 05:14 Well, I'm new-ish to book world. And so this podcast was sort of as I was thrown into it, how I learned about what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess: 05:26 Well, and you come at it from a really unconventional angle, which is part of what I want to talk about today. Speaking of books - so you have now two books. One is about to come out. But you have a book out that some of our audience may have heard of, which is called A Day in the Life of Marlon Bundo, which is a children's book. And I wanna talk a little bit about how that book came to be. But I'm also going to link to a wonderful article that you wrote for Glamour about why you wrote this children's book since it seems in contrast with what you do day to day, which is to write for a late night audience. Which is a story that I love. Could you tell us a little bit about how Marlon Bundo came to be? Because he is a cool, cool character. Oh, and by the way, before I keep going, you tweeted recently that you saw someone with Marlon Bundo tattooed on them. How did that happen? How did you come across that?

Jill: 06:28 Okay, well, it was at my gym. I just happened to be there and I go to sort of a very fun, weird gym where we all know each other pretty well. And so we do a name game at the beginning of every class. And this woman heard me say, my name was Jill and she said, 'Are you Jill Twiss?' And then she held up her arm and she had a full Marlon Bundo tattoo. And she said she'd gotten them with her cousin. It was the craziest thing. I can't imagine ever even getting a tattoo of my own books, much less someone else's, but it could not be a bigger honor.

Jess: 07:06 Well, and I mentioned in the introduction to Sarina because she knows of three people that have tattoos of her books on them and one is a line from one of her books and two of them are just pictures of the books. And that blows my mind. That's a level of permanence and fandom that I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine. So tell us a little bit about this book, Marlon Bundo. Who in the heck is Marlon Bundo?

Jill: 07:33 Sure. Okay. So as you said at the beginning, I am a writer at Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. And I have been a writer there since the show started. So I am a pretty, you know, dark, angry, comedy writer kind of person.

Jess: 07:51 And I just realized that with you saying that, that I started in absolutely the wrong place. I don't have KJ here to kick me under the table to say, 'No, no, no. You're starting in the wrong place.' Which she does so brilliantly. Because am I correct - I heard somewhere that this is your first writing job, the Last Week Tonight. Is that correct?

Jill: 08:11 It was my first professional writing job, yes. I had done stand up comedy,

Jess: 08:17 I'm sorry, but we have to talk about how that happens because the idea that your very first job, professional writing gig out of the gate is with a late night television show. I guess we kind of have to start there before we can even talk about how Marlon Bundo came to be.

Jill: 08:32 Sure, it's a lovely story about women helping women, actually.

Jess: 08:40 Oh, we like those stories a lot.

Jill: 08:42 I don't want to mislead you, it wasn't an accident. I was very much trying to get a late night writing job. I had done standup comedy. I'd loved the comedy part, but the standing up in front of people made me sort of sick to my stomach all the time. And part of me was like, if you're not happier when people clap, maybe you're a writer, maybe this isn't for you. And I started to try to find writing jobs. And as everyone listening I'm sure knows, it's really hard. And the TV late night world is just really hard to break into because it's really hard to find out how those jobs are out there. And crazily I got an email one day from a woman named Nell Scovell, who I now know was the co-writer of Lean In. She wrote for The Simpsons. She wrote for David Letterman. I had never met her, or at the time heard of her, and she said, 'Have you ever wanted to write for late night?' And I said, 'Yeah, that's all I want. Who are you? What are you talking about?' And she said, 'I've been reading your Twitter. I think you'd be great at it. She said, you know, she had been a woman writing comedy for decades and sort of thought that was enough. You know that she was the woman in the writer's room, wasn't she doing enough for women? And she realized things weren't getting any better. So she wanted to start to find women. So in any case she said, I can't get you a job but I can get your packet read, I can get someone to read your stuff. So, literally within four months I had this job.

Jess: 10:23 You do realize that you're inadvertently ratifying David Sedaris's advice that he gave on our show (which is to never, well, and I'm sure you weren't like in a position of just sitting in your apartment waiting for opportunities to come to you) but his advice on our show was to never ask anything of anyone and just wait and be ready when the opportunities come to you.

Jill: 10:47 Well, if I go back one more step. I actually did ask something of someone because my job (I was a musical theater actress and I was a standardized test tutor) and I tutored a real smart kid whose mom worked for David Letterman. And when he did really well on the SAT I asked his mom if she would meet with me and if I could write a packet, and I ended up asking someone who I didn't really know to read over that packet. She was a writer for Conan and it turns out five years later Nell had gone to her and said, 'Do you know anybody that should be writing for TV?' And she said, 'I read this packet years ago. She should be writing for late night.' So I did ask for a little help in someone just reading something and giving advice. And she couldn't help me at the time, but when she could, she did.

Jess: 11:42 That is so cool. And you've used the word packet a couple of times, and that's a word I don't think we've ever heard on our show before. So I'm sure there are people out there saying, 'Oh my gosh, what's a packet? I don't have one. I need it. What is it?' \.

Jill: 11:55 Fair. In the late night world, and that's, you know, shows like The Daily Show or Jimmy Fallon show, all the Jimmy's shows, Jimmy Kimmel's show. Instead of doing what you do I think in narrative television, which is you write a spec script of like a whole show, they want packets and every show wants a different packet. So you might write a whole bunch of monologue jokes that happen at the beginning of Stephen Colbert's show. For a show like ours, you're going to write something similar to what is going to air on the show and they give you that assignment. So you have to find out about the packet. At the time I did it, we didn't have a show, so it was a lot looser. It was a little bit like, guess what John Oliver might do on a show that doesn't exist yet. I think specifically they asked to write a domestic and an international story. For something like The Daily Show, you would write maybe something similar to what happens in like a seven minute increment. They might tell you exactly what they want, they might not. Every late night show has a different packet, but you generally have to write it specifically for that show.

Jess: 13:09 So there's no just like writing some vague generalized packet and hoping that it lands right.

Jill: 13:15 No, although weirdly I would recommend that, just because there's no way to practice this but to do it. And so I had written packets for shows that I never, ever got to submit that were just me trying to figure out, you know, how do you do this? How do you write a packet for this show? I had seen (it sounds crazy now) but I used to read like every article about writing for late night and someone had said, 'You know, well, at this late night show, they write monologue jokes. They show up at 9:00 AM and then they write till noon.' And I was like, great, three hours, I can write monologue jokes for three hours every day. So that's what I did. You know, I just tried to find like, let's pretend I have this job and figure out how to do it until finally, and it took a long time, someone gave me the opportunity to show what I'd been working on all that time.

Jess: 14:08 Is there a magic format for a packet? Like there are certain tells for hacks. Like you know, if I try to send in a spec script in just the wrong format or in a way that doesn't adhere to the look of the standard spec script, someone's going to ding it right away cause they're going to say, 'Oh, this person doesn't have the slightest idea what they're doing.' Or, we had a children's book author come on and she said one dead giveaway of people who don't know what they're doing with children's books is that they send in the wrong format, or an odd number of pages, or they say, and here's the illustrator I need to have in order to write this book.

Jill: 14:52 I did all of those wrong things, by the way. Literally, all the things you just said I'm pretty sure I did, but whatever.

Jess: 14:58 So is there a magic format for a packet? Is there a program out there that you have to have that adheres to this magic format?

Jill: 15:07 Weirdly, no, like late night I think is the Wild West of everything. Every show is different. I can't tell you they're going to be great about telling you what they want, but I think some of the best shows will give you samples of what their scripts look like and you can do your best to copy them. The closest I can give you is that you have to put it in the language of the show. You know, the packet you write for John Oliver is not going to be the same packet you write for Trevor Noah. Even if you're writing on exactly the same topic. So the big thing that they're looking for is, 'Yeah, are you putting some of yourself in there because we're hiring you because of you, but also are you in the voice of the show? We're not interested in you changing the whole format of the show. I think some people like to come in and be like, you know, I have a new idea. Like what if Jimmy Fallon was in space the whole time? And it's like, well, you're not showing us that you can write the show that we have. This is really you showing you could start today and fit in with the show that's already there.

Jess: 16:16 I was a political speech writer for a while and part of the fun (for me anyway), was the challenge of writing in someone else's voice completely and not letting my voice dominate. So that's a really interesting balance. And are there times when you write scripts and then the person who for example, John Oliver, will put his own particular read on it so you don't have to be too worried about writing it exactly the same way he would say it?

Jill: 16:41 Oh yeah. I think of course he's going to put everything in his own words. I will say, because some of us have been there since the beginning, I've absolutely adapted to John's voice, but I think in some weird ways he's adapted to our voices, too. There are jokes he tells because I love them or because you know, someone else loves that voice and he (I think) has just a lot of skill at doing lots of different kinds of jokes. So I for sure have adopted his speech patterns, but I think he has in some ways altered his speech patterns for all of us, too.

Jess: 17:20 That's fascinating. Alright, so back to Marlon Bundo. So you're writing on a television show, which isn't the normal pattern of things that the next thing on your plate, affiliated with the show is a children's book. Will you tell us how that came to be?

Jill: 17:37 Sure, yes. We are not a children's show. We say a lot of words that you wouldn't say on children's shows.

Jess: 17:45 But you do have a lot of very cute, mascot looking creatures that come on the show.

Jill: 17:54 It's true, we do love that. So it happened that I was and am obsessed with a very real bunny named Marlon Bundo. Who is, if you don't know, the Vice President, Mike Pence's actual pet.

Jess: 18:10 Now is he still around? Bunnies don't have the longest lifespan. Is the real Marlon Bundo still around?

Jill: 18:15 To my knowledge, the real Marlon Bundo is still around. I don't want to start any conspiracy theories here. I believe that there is still a Marlon Bundo living.

Jess: 18:29 I will put it in the show notes if I find otherwise.

Jill: 18:32 Right. Yeah. Don't blame it on me. And Marlon Bundo had an Instagram and I loved this bunny. It's a very cute bunny. I am not, perhaps, the biggest fan of Mike Pence and some of his policies. And one day I saw an announcement that they were releasing a book about Marlon Bundo. And for some reason I got like weirdly territorial, as though I had any ownership of this bunny, which I obviously do not. And I was like, 'No, I want to write the book about Marlin Bundo.' So I pitched it, I just wrote an email that said no, we should write a book about Marlon Bundo. That, you know Mike Pence himself does not have the kindest record perhaps with same sex marriage. And so we decided to make Marlin Bundo a gay bunny.

Jess: 19:27 So you pitched it to the show, not necessarily to a literary agent first?

Jill: 19:31 Oh, not at all. No, that was in no way involved.

Jess: 19:35 Did you have a literary agent at that point?

Jill: 19:37 Nope, I did not. I also didn't have a TV agent, for whatever that's worth. No, I just pitched it to the show as like we should put out a book, which, you know, I pitch a thousand things to the show and most of them don't happen. But they said, 'Okay, yeah, let's do it.' And we had a quick meeting just to decide if it should be an actual children's book or if it should be one of those like parody books that's really for adults, but looks like a children's book. And I think we just decided why not? Like, why not write a kind book for kids about a thing that really matters to us.

Jess: 20:20 Now the writer in me and the person who now understands publishing timelines is freaking out. Because if you have just seen that a press release or some sort of release on the Twitter feed about the fact that they're going to come out with this book about Marlon Bundo, how on earth do you get a children's book out in time to have it still be relevant to the release of the other book? Because that was part of the deal when it was announced is that it was a competing book with the real Marlon Bundo's book. So how do you make those timelines work? Publishing moves slow, Jill.

Jill: 20:55 The great news is I didn't have to do any of it. I wrote the book, actually I didn't even... I went back to my office and we didn't even assign a book at that point. We were just kind of like pondering some ideas and I said, 'You know what, I'm just going to write something that way it'll be easier for them to be like, Oh no, not that. Now that we see that, we'll say, not that, we want something more like this.'

Jess: 21:26 You have a comfort with rejection of ideas that will be so refreshing to so many of our listeners because still - there's a pitch I put out there like two weeks ago and I haven't heard back and I am just feeling all sorts of rejection and yet now I can have Jill Twiss's 'almost everything I say gets rejected at some stage of the game' You're my new voice in my head. I love it.

Jill: 21:52 I mean, all of us probably write I would guess 30 to 50 jokes for every joke that goes on the show. So that's just the norm for sure. So I wrote this - just a thing just to be like, 'Hey, I don't know what about this?' And they said, 'Oh yeah, that. We'll just publish that.' So, it turned out to be like a day-long process. We changed literally a couple of words, had someone help us with things that you're talking about now. Like this is the number of pages or whatever. And I now realize that the publisher, Chronicle, was probably flipping out. But, not my problem. I didn't know. I had no idea. We found, again, what I now know is an extremely fast illustrator. We just picked the best person we found. Who was E.G. Keller, who is fantastic.

Jess: 22:55 I have to say, the illustrations are absolutely fantastic. I love the illustrations.

Jill: 22:59 When you were saying earlier you can't ever come in demanding an illustrator, that's exactly what I did for my next book. I didn't demand anything. That's not at all true. But after this (we're skipping ahead), I did get a literary agent, and she did sell us together. So my next two books are also with the same illustrator.

Jess: 23:20 And your next two books, including the one that is going to be coming out soon, which is called The Someone New...

Jill: 23:26 Oh, that one's out.

Jess: 23:27 Oh, that one's out now. Okay.

Jill: 23:28 That one was out last June so you can buy that one right now.

Jess: 23:31 Okay. So the two books you're talking about are in addition to the Marlon Bundo book and The Someone New?

Jill: 23:37 No, sorry, I'm saying this weird. So Marlon Bundo exists in the world of the show. My first book, that is entirely outside the show, was The Someone New and that is about welcoming someone new to your life, or your country, or your whatever.

Jess: 23:57 It is delightful, and beautiful, and sweet. I got a little choked up reading The Someone New. Well, mainly, I mean the town that I live in (I'm right near Burlington, Vermont) has been a sanctuary city. You know, there are lots of someone news in Burlington. Every single time I'm out and about in Burlington I run into people who are new to town and it had a really important place for me in terms of thinking about what it must be like to try to be new somewhere. And I love the book. I absolutely loved The Someone New.

Jill: 24:36 Thank you so much. I went to 11 schools in 12 years, so I was always the someone new. So when it came down to, Hey, you can actually write anything now, generally when I write for the show, I have very specific parameters. So when it came down to I had a literary agent, I could write a children's book on anything I wanted. What I wanted to write about are the things that really mattered to me right now, which is welcoming someone new to our country, but also just - kids are faced with new things every day. And new things are scary. You know, you don't know when you're a kid. And I really wanted to help that new kid in school...

Jess: 25:23 Which gets back to your Glamour article, you talk in that article about the fact that it can be really, really difficult to reach people who are adults, who can be really entrenched in their thinking, and really entrenched in their views. Whereas with kids, there seems to be more of an openness and (that's not easier to write to) but it's a welcome and it's the reason that I've been a teacher for so long is it is so wonderful to be able to reach someone when before they've become completely entrenched in their views one way or the other and have a conversation about things that are difficult.

Jill: 25:59 Yeah, I think that whatever side of the political spectrum you're on, one thing that we're all experiencing is just finding out that adults are tough sometimes. They're frustrating. It's hard to watch things happen and realize that people are just so set in their ways and they don't want to hear always what's true. They want to hear what they want to hear. And kids, everything's new, you know, and they are perfectly willing to learn a new fact, take it in, change their mind if it changes what's previously there. There's just such a wonderful openness and I have so much hope for the next generation and I need that hope right now.

Jess: 26:48 Yeah. There was a moment when I was teaching at my very first teaching gig, I was teaching middle school kids and there was a kid who came from a really, really remote rural town. You know, he came into my classroom and from the first day he would say things that I could tell were not his words. He was parroting things that he'd heard from other adults. And it was really interesting cause he was putting things out there to see what our reaction would be. And it led to some really, really interesting conversations and moments when he realized, 'Oh, I do believe that thing I said', or 'No, I don't believe that thing I said, but I'm just putting it out there because I've never had the opportunity to get feedback on the thoughts that I hear from the adults around me. So it's just really cool to be able to get inside of a kid's head and see how their thought process is when they're forming their identity, and their views, and their beliefs, and their ethics. It's really cool.

Jill: 27:47 I've really fallen in love with the book world, first of all. But the children's book world and just like the chance to go and read books to kids and sing songs with kids. I don't have kids, so this is new to me. Everything I've learned in the children's book world has been a shock as far as like what age kids read what kind of books, like all of that stuff. I'm learning at sort of double speed as I go through this. But it is just delightful to get to work with kids and see them and you get nice emails instead of mean emails, you get nice pictures of children and dogs with your books instead of like me and emails of people threatening to you know, hurt you.

Jess: 28:33 Well, and speaking of kids you do something that I just had never even thought of as a task. You write sentences for the Scripps Spelling Bee. How did that come about? And how is that a gig that you become aware of and get?

Jill: 28:52 Yeah. Well first of all, I'm obsessed with the spelling bee. I have been for years. So it was very much on our radar. And again, I would pitch it as a story for the show and we did do it on the show once as just a short, funny story in the show. Right around then, I hit this stage of my life that I would I highly recommend, which is just ask for things you want. I don't know. Maybe they'll say yes. I've never done that before. But we did that story about the spelling bee and then I went to our executive producer and I said, 'Do we have a contact there? Can I ask them if I can write for them?' And she was like, 'Why would you want to do that?' And I was like, 'Fine, not your problem. It's fine. And I literally just emailed the spelling bee, told them what I do and that I had worked on the piece for the show and I said, 'I know you must have comedy writers write sentences. Like, I've seen the sentences that show up there, can I be one of them?' And they said, 'Yes'. That was really that easy, which I know is not how life works. And I know I had many years of opportunities not coming like that. So, now that I have a little clout and a little something, I'm just asking for all the weird things that I want. My next goal, I'm just going to put this out in the world, I want to write for the Tony awards. So if you know anyone, if you could make it happen, let me know.

Jess: 30:20 Very cool. So wait, they give you the word and then you write the sentence to go with the word that helps? So when the kid says, 'Could you give me that word in a sentence?' you're writing that sentence?

Jill: 30:31 Yes. Not all of the sentences. They have like really great experts writing sort of I'll say 'not funny sentences'. But, yes. So they do that to make sure everything is grammatically exactly what it needs to be. It's really important. It's so much more important that the sentences be correct than that they be funny. But they have comedy writers that go through maybe a month before the B and write a certain number of comedy sentences for it. And then this year for the first time, I actually got to go to the spelling bee. And as it was on the air, we were up there writing sentences for words that were coming up because they could switch the order of the words, for anyone that saw it this year, everything went crazy because there were eight champions and so everything was sort of getting decided on the fly. So we write sentences there, too.

Jess: 31:31 Wow. I actually had read somewhere, I think it might've been at the Tony awards one year, that they were writing - it was the year that Neil Patrick Harris rapped at the end and they were writing the rap during the show as winners were announced. First of all, Neil Patrick Harris, all hail Neil Patrick Harris and his ability to learn that stuff and perform it with like 10 minutes to spare. But the television world always to me, you know, Shonda Rhimes talks about writing for television as laying tracks while you're on the train that's going to... Sorry, Shonda, I'm sure I said that terribly, but it has always petrified me because of the speed at which things need to happen. So I'm always amazed when I hear things like the script story, where you're actually under pressure writing stuff while the show is happening.

Jill: 32:20 I was nervous because our show is once a week. And I have a lot of people, I have a lot of oversight on Last Week Tonight. But I actually found it incredibly calming. There's something really nice about not being able to read over what you've done. I'm writing a play right now and it could not be more stressful because I just have infinite time to revise and do and if it's up to me I will just revise for the rest of my life and no one will ever read anything I've written. So there's something really calming about being there and being under time pressure and being like, well it's out there. It worked or it didn't work. Who knows?

Jess: 33:00 Now this play that you mentioned, I had read that you are working on a musical about the convention at Seneca Falls. Is that what you're talking about?

Jill: 33:06 I am. I think it is turning into not a musical. Primarily because 2020 is the Centennial of women getting the right to vote. So this is the year for this and it takes so long to get a musical out there. That's what I thought I was going to do. And I think it's just going to be a play either first or always.

Jess: 33:32 That is so cool. So you have in fact someone in the #AmWriting Facebook group very specifically this week asked about not just wanting to know like the big picture nuts and bolts of how we (KJ, Sarina, and I) divide our time, but they wanted to know the close view of what it looks like - the granular view of how you divide your time. So what does your weekly schedule sort of look like in your daily sort of writing routine?

Jill: 34:04 Right now I'm on hiatus, so that's different and I'm going to kind of throw that out. But generally during the season, we work Wednesday through Sunday. We tape on Sunday and we work (theoretically) from 10-6. But it's whatever it takes you to get your work done. I consider myself a slow writer and I will very often write till midnight, one in the morning, whatever, when I'm on a piece. But it's really just write till you get it done or for me it's write till the singular moment when it is due. Always, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter when I started, doesn't matter how much time I have, if it's due at 9:00 AM then at 8:59 AM I will be writing.

Jess: 34:53 I've talked a lot about the fact that my deadline was supposed to be like July 1st for the book I just finished and then we moved it to October 1st but there was a conversation about, well, should I maybe propose like if there's time, which there is, because I'm not coming out until 2021 should I propose December 1st? And I'm like, Hmm, I need the pressure. I need that sort of looming-I-can-make-it-but-I got-to-keep-my-butt-in-the-chair-in-order-to-make-it. Because the minute I've got a couple extra months, I'm like, 'Or I could wash the baseboards in the bathroom.'

Jill: 35:29 Okay. I never do that. Never.

Jess: 35:31 No, I need the pressure.

Jill: 35:32 No, I am a queen of making fake deadlines for myself. Because yes, there's things I do for work. It is really hard to motivate myself to write all day and then write something for myself at night. So I will commit to other people, generally. Even when I was writing these children's books before it got to the point where there was any kind of deadlines, I would just email my agent and say, 'I'm gonna have a book to you by Tuesday at 4.' And then I had to write a book.

Jess: 36:06 I do the exact same thing and I know it's going to bite me in the butt at some point because I don't need to do that. I'm imposing a deadline on myself, but that seems to work for me.

Jill: 36:18 I think that I can't write anything without them. I'm having someone come over later today. He doesn't know this, but it is literally for the purpose of I was like, 'Can we plan out the next few scenes in this play?' But actually he's not writing the next few scenes in the play I am, but it's so that I have to write them and that I have some kind of accountability because it's a play. No one's asking for it. Frankly, no one wants it. There's a zillion plays in the world. So, in order for me to do it I have to invent a world where I'm accountable when I'm not.

Jess: 36:51 Do you have a series of deadlines then? Like do you have short term deadlines for certain scenes or do you just have some like big glowing day on your calendar, which is 'Have this mofo first draft done'

Jill: 37:01 No, I have to do it scene by scene. It's mostly just me. I mean, I'm hoping to say to this person, 'I'm going to get you a scene every day for the rest of my hiatus.'

Jess: 37:15 I mean, it sounds like this person is kind of your accountability buddy, but we've talked about this before. I'll say to KJ or to Sarina, 'I'm going to have chapter six done by end of day on Friday, hold me to that.' And they'll ask me, they'll text me, and say, 'How you doing on chapter four? How's it going?'

Jill: 37:35 I mean for most of my life I did not have a writing job. So I spent a long time crafting ways to pretend I was a professional writer. I didn't have an agent, as I said I've never had a TV agent. I got a book agent, not after Marlon Bundo came out, but maybe a week before Marlon Bundo came out, and she didn't know about Marlon Bundo when she signed me.

Jess: 38:05 So you approached her? Or she approached you, obviously?

Jill: 38:08 Because Marlon Bundo didn't exist. It was a weird situation where I had an offer for a YA book that I thought I could write while I was writing the show. I don't know how I thought I could do this. And so I needed an agent to broker that deal and so I asked friends who their agents were and if they would talk to me. And I actually chose her because she was like, 'I don't think you should this deal.' And I didn't know anything else in the world, but I was like, 'Well, she wants to work with me and she obviously doesn't want my money cause she's telling me to turn down this deal and maybe not do it at all.' So I signed with her and then I had to call her a week later and be like, 'I wasn't allowed to tell you this, but I have a book coming out tomorrow.'

Jess: 39:00 Oh, you were embargoed on that...interesting.

Jill: 39:02 Yeah. No, my parents didn't know. Noone knew I had written a book. It was all a huge secret.

Jess: 39:09 Well, parents are one thing, but not being able to tell a potential agent, that's a whole other thing. That makes talking with that person like impossible.

Jill: 39:18 She happened to be a children's book agent. But by sheer luck, I sort of fell into that because I loved her. And then I told her that. And of course a week later she was like, 'What were you talking about writing? A YA novel, obviously. You're going to write some children's books.

Jess: 39:39 That is so excellent. I love it. So we are out of time, I could talk to you for so long, but I want to talk a little bit about, have you been reading anything recently that you like?

Jill: 39:53 Oh my God.

Jess: 39:53 Anything you can talk about? Any stuff that you've been reading and enjoying?

Jill: 39:57 I'm looking right next to my bed. So give me five seconds to look at the name of it. It's called The World Only Spins Forward. And it is an oral history. It's a book about how the play Angels in America got written and sort of the world behind it, and the politics that were going on, the AIDS crisis that was going on, all of that stuff that led to Tony Kushner writing Angels in America. And I think it's lovely.

Jess: 40:28 Okay, so I will be picking this up on the way home because my husband is a super fan. My husband is an HIV doc and uses Angels in America to talk about what politically was going on at the time and essentially he re-watches the movie every six months or so. So I will be picking them on the way home.

Jill: 40:52 It's necessary reading. And it's also just fascinating, so far, from a writing perspective, when you imagine a young Tony Cushner going out and just starting seven hours of writing a play. This gives you a little idea how that happens.

Jess: 41:11 No, it's two parts. It's a two part play. We're going to need seven hours for this thing. I mean, can you even imagine?

Jill: 41:20 It seems like he did not think he was doing that, but then it'll also talk about how he'll go to a cabin and just come back with 700 pages of what he wrote there (for the play). And then he was like, 'Yeah, this will be a two hour show.' It took a while for them to figure out that perhaps it was not going to be one night of theater.

Jess: 41:40 Perhaps. I actually was just talking to Sarina when we recorded the intro that I have been listening to a book by Kristan Higgins, who our listeners will recognize. I'm listening to a book called Good Luck With That, which is a really cool premise about these three friends who met at (and I know this is not the term we're supposed to use, but they use it in the book) that met at fat camp, you know, nutrition and health camp for girls kind of thing. And 20 years later, one of them dies as a result of her morbid obesity. But leaves behind a list of (and this is not a spoiler because that happens right at the beginning of the book), their wishlist, the things they they wanted to do once they were thin. And she said, 'I want you to promise you have to do these things now.'.

Jill: 42:35 Oh my gosh.

Jess: 42:36 You can't wait till you're thin, you got to do these things. And it's a wonderful premise. The characters are fantastic. You do get to hear from the woman who has died because you're reading along; it's three women and you're reading along with her diary even though she has died. And then the other two women trying to fulfill the promises that they made to do these things now and not wait for someday about losing weight. It's three really lovely characters and Kristan Higgins is a truly gifted storyteller. So she has these three really individual women and it's a wonderful story.

Jill: 43:11 Can you say the title one more time?

Jess: 43:13 Yeah, it's called Good Luck With That by Kristan Higgins. And she's just absolutely lovely, her writing is wonderful. And it's a book that I didn't expect to fall in love with and now I'm like, 'Can I just go do some tasks or get in the car and drive around so that I can listen to it some more?' Which is always a plus for me, I love that. Are there audio books of Marlon Bundo and The Someone New?

Jill: 43:43 Oh my gosh. Is there ever an audio book of Marlon BUndo? The character of Marlon Bundo is voiced by Jim Parsons, who is a delight. Wesley is voiced by Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's the best cast. I'm going to leave someone out so I'm not going to tell you all of them, but in it my voice shouts, 'Hooray.' So I'm a little bit in it, but it's wonderful and oh, I didn't say this, but I should say this. All the proceeds from Marlon Bundo go to the Trevor Project. Or all of our proceeds; meaning any money I would've made, any money the show would have made, any money our illustrator would have made, go to AIDS United and to the Trevor Project.

Jess: 44:28 I was just thinking about the Trevor Project yesterday. I did something really entertaining this year. I made a donation to the Trevor Project in the name of someone who would not want to be making a donation to the Trevor Project. And I specifically emailed them and this one other organization to say, 'Please, could you send a note to this person that I have made saying that, you know, I'm making this donation on behalf of you for the children under your care that really deserve to have fulfilled lives where they are seen and loved for who they are and not who someone else wants them to be.' And it was the best donation I've ever made in my whole entire life.

Jill: 45:12 I love it so much. I feel like Marlon Bundo was exactly that, on a slightly larger scale. It was a way to use the name of someone (who perhaps hasn't been kind to the LGBTQ community) and to make a lot of money for people that help those people.

Jess: 45:35 Now, do you still follow the real Marlon Bundo on Twitter?

Jill: 45:39 I absolutely do.

Jess: 45:39 Does he still have a Twitter feed? Oh, well I'm going to have to follow him as soon as we get off.

Jill: 45:44 It's absolutely worth it. And just to mention another organization cause we're doing it. With The Someone New we work together with K.I.N.D. (Kids In Need of Defense), which is an organization that helps kids at the border who are applying for asylum or, and gives them legal help. So, that's great. And I'm gonna throw out that in June I have another book coming out called Everyone Gets a Say that's about voting.

Jess: 46:15 Oh, I'm so excited. And we've been having a lot of debate in our house about what the voting age should be. There's a fantastic episode of the West Wing, actually, that I plan to make both of my boys watch where these kids come to the White House and they're trying to encourage the voting age to be lowered. They're trying to convince the White House to lower the voting age. And so we've had a very spirited conversation in our house about what the voting age should be. And actually it was reflected recently on Twitter. There was a whole thread that was going around about what various ages should be for various things. I happen to think that the voting age should be 16, because I think kids are smarter than we give them credit for. And they do have the ability to look at what's going on in our country and in the world and have a say in that.

Jill: 47:01 I don't know what I think. So I'm not going to state an opinion, but I do think voting on climate change bills should definitely be by people who are going to be around when they go into effect. I think if perhaps climate change isn't going to affect you because you're 89 years old, you shouldn't be the one making all the laws about it.

Jess: 47:23 Alright. So if people want to find out more about you and what you do, where would you send them?

Jill: 47:28 I have my name Jill Twiss, J-I L-L T-W-I-S-S is my Twitter handle, it's my Instagram handle, it's my website. So if you know that, you can find me in any capacity.

Jess: 47:41 Alright, so we've got A Day in the Life of Marlon Bundo. Go get it. It's fantastic. The Someone New. Go get that. It's fantastic. And what's the release date for the new book again?

Jill: 47:50 It is June 4th, I think. It's the first week in June and it's called Everyone Gets a Say.

Jess: 47:58 Go preorder it now so that everyone will get a say. I'm going to be pre-ordering it myself. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I am so grateful to you. This has been a fantastic conversation.

Jill: 48:11 I loved it. Thank you so much.

Jess: 48:13 I'm going to go off and work on my packet. Alright, thank you Jill. Bye-Bye. And until next week, everyone, keep your butts in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

192 #HowtoBeaBookCoach Jan 03, 2020

“Every writer,” book coach Jennie Nash tells us, “ thinks at some point that they just cannot do this. That’s just part of the process.” It’s not our favorite part—but it’s true, and getting past that stage and on with the job of finishing a book in any genre is the part of the process that many writers just can’t seem to conquer. But for some of us—like Jennie—helping other people get past that road block is a superpower. If that’s you (and you know if it is)—then we might just have a side hustle for you. In this episode, we talk to Author Accelerator’s Jennie Nash about the five things that make a good book coach, how she trains book coaches and her process for guiding a writer’s process—and why a good book coach must be paid.

Transcripts are having a holiday break—but the next #WritersTopFive is already scheduled for Monday, January 6, 2020: Top Five Ways to Find the Right Agent to Pitch. Those Top Fives are how we thank our supporters, who tell us how much they appreciate the podcast by funding it at $7 a month or $80 a year. The end of the year is a great time to do just that—and you won’t want to miss that Top Five or the ones that come after. Ready to join us? Just click the button.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess: Love and Other Words / Roomies by Christina Lauren

KJ: Convenience Store Woman, Sayaka Murata

Sarina: Tuesday Mooney Talks to Ghosts, Kate Raccullia

Jennie: The House that Lou Built, Mae Respicio

#FaveIndieBookstore

The Crow, Burlington, VT.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 191 #2020Goals Dec 27, 2019

Whoa. Fellow writers, 2020 is upon us. And here at #AmWriting HQ, we love setting annual goals. We really do. We adore everything about it, from the anticipation and planning to the writing them in our handy dandy notebooks (although this year KJ got paralyzed by the need to make them pretty and ended up with temporary under a to-do list scribbles).

One reason we love it so much is that we feel good about our goals. Typically, we tend to reach them—and that isn’t because we’re super-people. It’s because we set the right kinds of goals. Things we can control, that are within our reach, that can me measured and revisited and that hold us up and support us in our work. And we also love words—which means we love choosing our word of the year. This year we’ve got three good ones. Listen in, and then share yours in our Facebook group.

If you’re working on goal setting and want to read more about how we make goals work for us, we’ve got something for you, our loyal email subscribers: a goal-setting mini-ebook. Download it here.

Links and transcripts are having a holiday break—but the next #WritersTopFive is already scheduled for Monday, January 6, 2020: Top Five Ways to Find the Right Agent to Pitch. Those Top Fives are how we thank our supporters, who tell us how much they appreciate the podcast by funding it at $7 a month or $80 a year. The end of the year is a great time to do just that—and you won’t want to miss that Top Five or the ones that come after. Ready to join us? Just click the button.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 190: #DeclaringGoalsMet* Dec 20, 2019

We’re reviewing our 2019 goals. Did we gloriously achieve? Live up to our words of the year by focusing on the worthy? Check every box and climb every mountain?

We did okay.

In some cases, we killed. In others, there were extenuating circumstances. Goals were revised, cast aside, postponed. All part of the process. To hear how we did, listen in—and be sure to share your bests and worsts from 2019 in the #AmWriting Facebook Group. Then, get ready for some #2020GoalSetting next week.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, a request. Can you work supporting the #AmWriting podcast into your end-of-year budget? The next Monday’s #WritersTopFive: Top Five Ways to Find the Right Agent to Pitch, will drop into inboxes Monday, January 6, 2020—just in time for a new year of pitching goals. Everyweekly #WritersTopFive email features fast, fun, actionable advice from KJ, Jess, Sarina and our guests. Supporters also get subscriber-only bonus PODCAST SHORTS. A little randomly timed inspiration from one of us every so often, straight into your podcast feed. Want in? Click the button.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

Jess’s video of an eagle trapped by an octopus (which is not nearly as dramatic as I feel trying to wrestle all my goals and to-dos into submission).

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess: The Bromance Book Club, Evie Drake Starts Over

KJ: Unmarriagable: Pride and Prejudice in Pakistan

Sarina: The Bromance Book Club

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript are on a break for the holidays.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 189: #WhatWritersWant(thatmoneycanbuy) Dec 13, 2019

We all know you can’t really buy the things we writers want: inspiration, the power to spend as much time writing our books as we do thinking about them—not to mention sales, agents and editors. But you CAN grab a few things that make the writerly journey more fun. In this episode, we talk about the joys of journals and the perfect markers, tech tools that qualify as investments and those that are a little less spendy and suggest a few gifts for your writer groups stockings—including custom socks.

Episode links follow—but first, a preview of the #WritersTopFive that will be dropping into #AmWriting supporter inboxes on Monday, December 16, 2019: Top 5 Things to Do to at the Start of a New Nonfiction Project. Remember, you can GIFT a supporter subscription! Or sign up to support us yourself.

On that note, there are affiliate links in this post. Most will go to support the podcast, but the things KJ “borrowed” from Catherine Newman’s gift guide are her affiliate links (and she’s donating the proceeds this year). As always, this episode (and every episode) will appear for all subscribers in your usual podcast listening places, totally free as the #AmWriting Podcast has always been. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it with the shownotes and a transcript every time there’s a new episode.

And now, this week’s links!

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

The Leuchtturm B5 bullet journal with monthly pages we all use.

From KJ:

KJ’s two sets of sticky notes: the color dots, and the color flags, from the glorious gift guide of one Catherine Newman.

KJ’s new favorite notebook, from Sarina (and Paipur—here’s their direct website).

Books and art supplies KJ is craving: Finding Your Creative Voice, Lisa Congden

A set of watercolor paints like this one, also snatched from Catherine’s gift guide. And hey, why not this book she liked, too? A Field Guide to Color, Lisa Solomon.

The outline pens KJ keeps seeing on Instagram—or something like them— are here in plain, and here in glitter.

We talked about classes from Skillshare, BluPrint and Master Class.

Give the Gift of a Podcast here.

From Jess:

Book Nerd hat I bought at Parnassus but you can get from Out of Print

Night Scout Rechargeable LED beanie in red

Tät Tat “sacco” upright pouch for glasses in grey blue

The Every Day Calendar from Simone Giertz (her useless robot video is here)

Pre-order Benjamin Dreyer’s Stet! Grammar game, out July 7, 2020

From Sarina:

Snarky notepads

Frixion no-bleed, erasable markers in fineliners and plumper versions

New apple pencil

Nebo app for handwriting-to-text

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

There’s no transcript for this week’s episode. Transcripts will return next week.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 188 #HowtoJudgeaBook(byits)Cover Dec 06, 2019

Turns out you should judge a book by its cover, and readers do. Which means authors need to consider that (and not our own taste) when we think about our own covers. This week, we talk about the two things to consider whether you’re an indie working with cover artists or a trad with a publisher and an art department: reader expectations and those now-you-can’t-stop-seeing-the-flowers trends, and it turns into a bit of lesson in heading to the bookstore and making some cover judgments of your own.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, have you heard that we recorded our first #SupporterMinis this month? #SupporterMinis are short bursts of advice or inspiration (or maybe commiseration) to punctuate your writing week, which appear in the podcast feeds of our supporters. Supporters also get weekly #WritersTopFives like Top Five Goodreads Secrets for Authors and Top Five Things You Don’t Need to Be a Real Writer. Support us and we’ll do everything we can to support you!

To support the podcast and help it stay free, subscribe to our weekly #WritersTopFive email.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess: Running with Sherman: The Donkey with the Heart of a Hero, Christopher McDougall

KJ: Tuesday Mooney Talks to Ghosts, Kate Racculia

More Reading on Book Covers

The 78 Best Book Covers of 2019 from LitHub

9 beautiful book cover design trends for 2019, 99designs

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work done. Check out their FREE (and epic) upcoming summit on the Business of Book Coaching if you’re intrigued, or visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwriting for details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

The image in our podcast illustration was compiled by the people at the magnificent LitHub, which you should bookmark and read constantly, and used in the article that’s linked in our shownotes: The 78 Best Book Covers of 2019. I note that I have not read one single one of these books.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ: 00:01 Hello fellow writers. The end of the year is a great time to look back at what filled you up in the past months and for many of us that's not just our writing, but the time we've spent helping others with their work. For some of us that's come out in small ways, but for others it's a calling and an opportunity to build a career doing work you love. Our sponsor, Author Accelerator provides book coaching to authors (like me) but also needs and trains book coaches. And they'll be hosting a free book coaching summit in January for anyone who wants to learn more. If that's got your ears perked up, head to authoraccelerator.com/summit. Is it recording?

Jess: 00:43 Now it's recording, go ahead.

KJ: 00:44 This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess: 00:48 Alright, let's start over.

KJ: 00:49 Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers.

Jess: 00:52 Okay.

KJ: 00:52 Now one, two, three. Hey, this is KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting, the weekly podcast about writing all the things, be they fiction, nonfiction, proposals, final drafts, pitches, essays, whatever it is that you are working on. We are the podcast about sitting down and getting the work done.

Jess: 01:20 I'm Jess Lahey, I'm the author of the Gift of Failure and a forthcoming book about preventing substance abuse in kids and I am deep in the land of editing right now and you can also find my work at the Atlantic and the New York Times and the Washington Post.

Sarina: 01:33 And I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 30-odd romance novels and I am revising a book called Heartland, which will come out in the late winter and my revision is due on Monday.

Jess: 01:49 Ouch, but you're going to make it.

KJ: 01:53 I am KJ Dell'Antonia, the author of a novel coming out next summer, as well as How To Be a Happier Parent coming out in paperback next summer and former editor of the Motherlode blog at the New York Times, where I occasionally still contribute, and right now, not in fact in the land of editing, or revising, or anything along those lines. But I will own that my bold declarations regarding NaNoWriMo and trying to finish my current project, I did not. It is not quite the end of NaNoWriMo as we record, but I can guarantee to you that I did not write 50,000 words of a novel during November, but that's okay. I needed to do a lot of thinking, so I could not write. If I had written 50,000 words, it would not have been a good use of my time. Sometimes, it turns out that way.

Jess: 02:45 Well, I said I pulled the rug out from under my NaNoWriMo, anyway. So I've been doing something that was completely unplanned and has been going pretty well, actually. Oh, this is also fun news. I had a meeting with my editor - the same meeting that I had post sort of her taking a look at the first draft of Gift of Failure. And whereas the Gift of Failure meeting was vomit inducing, it was horrible. Some of you have heard this story, but basically suffice it to say it was a nightmare of a meeting with your editor, the very kind of meeting you hope you don't have. Although she's quite a lovely person. This meeting was its exact opposite. It was lovely, it was a love fest, everybody's happy. It was just really, really nice to have a positive meeting to offset the negative meeting that I had after Gift of Failure was turned in. One and one - is that what you say?

KJ: 03:50 I was going to look at a little more positively and say not many writers can have such a ringing guarantee that they have learned.

Jess: 03:58 Well, that's actually something that has been really interesting. I had a huge checklist of basically the what not to do stuff. And it was really nice cause during the meeting she said, 'I could tell that you were trying really hard to not do the things that you did last time.' And I'm like, 'Oh you have no idea. You have no idea how organized I was in my efforts to not make the same mistakes twice.' So that was a ringing endorsement of at least my anal retentive sort of attempts to to do better this time. To learn from my mistakes.

KJ: 04:30 Massive gold star. For learning all the things and we're going to talk about other things that we've learned today. We do have a topic and I'm really excited about it. Today's topic is cover art.

Jess: 04:49 I can fall so deep into this whole...like this topic, especially now since I'm at the point where I get to start sort of like really thinking about this. This can consume me for days.

KJ: 05:01 So we're going to talk about covers when you need to create your own cover. Covers when you're working with a publisher and they are presenting covers to you. Covers internationally. Covers, you know, what it is when you are working with a publisher, what you ought to be thinking about. So let's just start broadly like, what makes a good cover?

Sarina: 05:24 Well, I was thinking about this yesterday, as we were getting ready for this and I had a really good time thinking about it and making notes. And I thought that at the end of the day there were really two things that every author is supposed to think about. Two broad things - and they are, number one reader expectations, followed by (distantly) trends. So when I say reader expectations I mean that all of us, when we walk into a bookstore and we take that first glance at the table in front and maybe your eye comes to rest on a book, I don't know if until you're in this seat where you have to think about it, that you really realize how much information you're getting from that cover just at the first glance. About is that book fiction or nonfiction, is it literary, is it practical, is it a romance, is it for children? You know, you get a lot of information really quickly and, and when it's time for the gut wrenching question of what cover art is going to be on your book, you have to like back out a little and think with your analytical brain about what information you want readers to have.

Jess: 06:44 This is something that when Gift of Failure was in the process of getting its cover the first round of covers really were a clear statement that my publisher wasn't really sure what this book was. And so when we backed up, my agent and I did a really clear conversation about what exactly do you want this book to say about what's inside. And I knew little things, like I wanted people to be able to know what this book was from far away. Like I wanted someone on the other end of a subway car to say, 'Oh, I recognize that book.' But above and beyond that, if you think about what Gift of Failure is, it's a parenting book, but it's an education book. And so there were all these like how do you convey that through a cover design? And it's really a tricky thing. And looking forward to the next book, I don't even know where to start with that, but I love the fact that you have to somehow get all of these messages across graphically. And that's what's so exciting about a cover.

Sarina: 07:49 It is. And we should also say where Gift of Failure ended up as cover art because it's really telling; and it was such a great cover.

Jess: 07:57 Well, and it was a total redesign. And when my agent and I rejected the first set of covers and asked for a redesign, we found the image of a ladder with a broken rung. And then we're like, 'Oh, but what if the ladder was made out of pencils?' So that was kind of a joint effort between me and my agent. So while my agent said (you know, she neve,r hardly ever recommends that an author sort of say, 'Here, look, here's a cover design.') She was very into the idea of us giving them ideas, especially once it seemed like their artists were stuck.

KJ: 08:34 I want to jump on the word rejected. Cause you didn't, cause you couldn't. I have not read your contract, but I can almost guarantee you that that right is not in there.

Jess: 08:48 How about we gently suggested?

KJ: 08:51 But that is something to be aware of if you are in a situation where you're working with a publisher, you don't have control over the cover art. If the publisher said, 'No, no, what we really like for the book, the Gift of Failure is this shot of a Christmas tree with presents on it and gnomes hanging off of it and that's what we're going with. You really got nothing. So when you're in that situation to take like a sort of more diplomatic approach is very necessary. Because every new design really costs them money too, right?

Sarina: 09:32 Right. And in one case, my first novel was women's fiction for Penguin in 2011, basically. And when I first saw the cover, they hired an outside illustrator to make it and I was told upfront that that was sort of an expensive thing to do. And they said, 'Here is your cover.' And I freaked because the cover was a whole bunch of things that did not make sense for this book. It looked vintage to me and the book was straight up contemporary. It was super busy. And I have to tell you, it had comic sans as the font. In black and the rest of the cover was not dark colors. And I just lost my mind there for a minute. But after I freaked out to my agent (and you're allowed to do that) I...

KJ: 10:31 Yes. That's the person to freak out to.

Jess: 10:33 Yeah, absolutely.

Sarina: 10:34 Then I wrote, very carefully, a note about I didn't actually mention how much I loathed with every fiber of my being the imagery on this cover, but rather I explained why the readers we were looking for would not pick up that cover. That it looked too old, it looked too big. You know, because my opinion is not important to this equation, but reader opinion really is.

Jess: 11:01 That's a fantastic point.

Sarina: 11:03 Yeah. That's where you want to go with your angst. Is here's why this would be an error, you know, in a very analytical way.

Jess: 11:12 I had this really cool situation with my publisher where the CEO, President, whatever, my publisher was teaching a class on publishing at a college. And one of the books that he had offered up to the students to do some sample covers for, just to sort of get an idea of how marketing works, one of them was mine. And the student got in touch with me through my website to talk to me about the fact that she had chosen my book as the book that she was working on in this college class on publishing, which was really cool. So that meant that my publisher was thinking about my book, not only from the perspective of 'I'm the publisher of this book and we want people to buy it, but I'm teaching students about marketing using this book.' So it was a really cool opportunity to have lots of perspectives. But also, unique, not many people get that opportunity.

KJ: 12:06 That is very cool. My nonfiction, the How To Be a Happier Parent came back to us the first time with an image of like cartoon parents on a roller coaster with their children. About which there were many, many problems. Among them was that all the parents and children were white. And also being on a roller coaster does not make you a happier parent. I mean, it had its point. I could kind of see where they were coming from, but we did something similar where we went back to them with just talking about how we didn't think it represented the book and ultimately they asked me, 'Well, what do you like?' And this same process, just to jump ahead, it happened to me with the novel, you know, show us some pictures that you like, show us covers that you like, tell us what it is you like about this. They actually did that in the case of the novel before we even went into it. So, in the case of How To Be a Happier Parent, I actually gave them a magazine that I like, it's called Flow, and if anyone ever found Flow and also found the cover of How To Be a Happier Parent, it ended up kind of looking like an issue of Flow. It has a chalkboard, and a floral, it's very trendy to be honest. And I like the cover very much, but it's definitely of its time. And then for the novel this time around I went to the publisher's website and tried to pull covers from their website that I liked.

Sarina: 13:45 Yeah, that was actually really fun to just think about the novel cover with you, KJ.

KJ: 13:51 Yeah, we were all pulling things and it was really great.

Sarina: 13:56 It was super fun. And that's kind of where part two comes into this, which is what trends have to say about what should be on the cover of your book. So one is reader expectations. And with The Chicken Sisters, you know, this is a novel about sisters. It's not a spoiler to say that. So, it's contemporary, it has a family dynamic, there's an element of competition regarding the whole book is about a contest, right? You had all of those things to kind of juggle and play with. And then there's also the trends of what's on the cover of women's fiction right now.

Jess: 14:43 And not just what's on the cover, but what colors. Because it turns out, and I had no idea, obviously there are trends just like in fashion for colors and you can see what colors are trending when you go to your local bookstore.

KJ: 14:56 Oh, you totally can.

Jess: 14:58 It's really interesting. All of a sudden everyone decides teal is the color. Or everyone decides yellow is, it's really fascinating to watch.

KJ: 15:06 Let's hope yellow is the color of 2020 because that's what I ended up with. So The Chicken Sisters went through two cover drafts. So the first cover was very typical of commercial women's fiction. That's commercial, small, the tropes and chicken sisters, just to use the lingo. It's a small town, there's restaurants, there's foodiness, there's women, there's lots of conversation. That's not really a trope. Anyway, the first cover was a picture of two women sitting in a restaurant, talking. And there was nothing wrong with that. Like it was fine, but it didn't really leap.

Sarina: 16:01 It lacked conflict.

KJ: 16:02 It looked like a happy women's, commercial women's fiction book, which it is. But it didn't show that it's a dynamic story. And also, like yours, it looked a little vintage, and it's a very contemporary story. And so we went back and sort of went through it again and talked again about different covers. And the thing that they came back with when they decided to do a complete redesign is such a perfect icon. What they've got is two women's hands pulling at a wishbone, which you guys can see. We will put it up in the show notes, of course. It's all over my Instagram and will continue to be all over my Instagram for the next who knows how long.

Jess: 16:55 Here's a question - did you suggest the wishbone or did they come up with that?

KJ: 16:58 I did not, they came up with it.

Jess: 16:59 It's so good.

KJ: 17:02 It's really perfect.

Jess: 17:04 Because that first one, you're right, it really did look like two friends sitting down and having a cup of tea together. But this is perfect cause there's the conflict, there's the competition, there's the luck. All of that stuff, it's great.

Sarina: 17:17 It's amazing.

KJ: 17:18 And then I suggested (we made it super clear that they are different hands. You can tell by the fact that they've got different nail polish and they look a little different) and then it's got this background of sunflowers, which I love. And apparently floral backgrounds are super trendy, but I love them because the book is set in Kansas and sunflowers are very Kansas. I think what that communicates to readers is just, I don't know what the floral background communicates to readers to be honest. I like it, I pick them up.

Sarina: 17:52 It's just an it item. It's pretty like who doesn't want to look at sunflowers. And we should also say, KJ, that this whole cover art, so gorgeous, is illustrated because that is also a big trend right now. So, in the nineties I read lots of like chicklet novels that had illustrated covers like the Bridget Jones era. And then there was a while there after chicklet kind of had a big moment and then went away that that like illustrated was gone from book cover land because it was like you can't say anything serious underneath an illustrated cover.

KJ: 18:34 The pause here is me trying to remember what commercial women's fiction looked like in the...I guess it would...

Sarina: 18:46 Well, there's photos of like porch swings, and adirondack chairs, and women on beaches with big floppy hats. And all of that is still there. Like Elin Hildebrand has beach covers, but hers are starting to look more illustrated, too.

KJ: 19:03 They're starting to be illustrated pictures of women on beaches in big, floppy hats. And let me just say, I love a good women on a beach and a big floppy hat novel. So, you know, it's a good cover. If there were a beach and hats in my novel, I'd have been all over that.

Jess: 19:19 I have to say all of the books I was going to talk about today. I've done this fun reversal to you know, stuff I don't usually read, the sort of women's romcom stuff and it's all illustrated. You're totally right, I was just looking at the covers.

Sarina: 19:33 Yeah. And that's new. And it's also hitting the romance market pretty hard right now. So like four years ago you couldn't find a single romance novel with illustrations on the cover. It just didn't exist. And you know, everybody knows the history of romance covers with Fabio and like ripped shirts open and people. But a couple obviously screams romance. So people were used to seeing that. And then we hit the 50 Shades era and also self-publishing kind of ripped up all the rules because people didn't have photo shoots at their disposal, so...

KJ: 20:11 They were busily sort of begging their brothers to stand around shirtless and it just wasn't working for whatever reason. Come on, come on, it'd be great for your Instagram.

Sarina: 20:23 It became a stock photo market and there are certain stock photo models that when I see it that I just laugh because they're so overused. Like there's this one model that I call Creepy Eyed Santa Guy. I went for years without a photo of Creepy Eyed Santa Guy because there are a whole bunch of photos of him with a Santa hat on, but lots of photos of him without one. And then my check publisher actually used Creepy Eyed Santa Guy on one of my check editions. So now I do have that guy. But then 50 Shades of Gray came along and this author chose to put like cufflinks and a neck tie on her very stark covers.

KJ: 21:09 And it was self-published. So that was her choice.

Jess: 21:11 I think you mean handcuffs there, Buckaroo.

KJ: 21:15 Oh, that's true.

Sarina: 21:17 No, there were cufflinks.

Jess: 21:19 Oh, were there?

Sarina: 21:20 Yeah.

Jess: 21:21 I only remember the tie and the handcuffs. I don't remember the cufflinks, excellent.

Sarina: 21:25 No, there were like fine menswear stuff on and it. And it was moodily lit so it just looked like, you know, the guy took off his tie cause he had things to do. And that just ushered in what now in romance, people call object covers. And so now, if you see a book cover with a slip on it or just some piece of clothing moodily lit on a dark background, it tells you that that is going to be a very erotic book or have very erotic themes because that one author changed the way that romance novelists looked at cover potentials (in that sub-genre anyway) by her own success made it that way.

KJ: 22:09 Well there were so many things to sort of tease out of that and one of them was your international publisher. But I was thinking about the question of illustratation - You tried an illustrated cover lately? We're talking about reader expectations and I know that recently you had a moment when you felt like the cover that you chose did not meet your readers' expectations.

Sarina: 22:38 Oh yeah.

Jess: 22:39 We want to hear more about that.

Sarina: 22:41 Well, that was just last month and I was spinning off a character. So he was from my Brooklyn series and I had retired him from the hockey team in a book and I was spinning him off into a story about his family's very bizarre security company, like a cybersecurity thing. So I needed readers to know that that beloved character was getting a story and that they were connected. And my wonderful cover artist, she is so talented, made me exactly what I asked her for, which is something a bit trendy, with a bit of a blur to it, really interesting cover for this new series that had an element of suspense. She did exactly what I asked her to. It was gorgeous and the preorders for this book were terrible and I panicked and they just didn't improve and I thought, well, something's just wrong. Like readers really like this guy. They'll like this story, the blurb is good. Like I knew enough to know which things ought to be working and so I woke up six days before the launch - positive that the cover was a problem and I thought, okay, well I'm going to write my poor cover designer an email and say, 'Listen, I've made a big mistake. Do you have any time to help me?' And she said yes. And I bought a photograph from a photographer that day and I sent it over to her and we changed the cover so that you can tell that it's a spinoff from that other series by the typography.

KJ: 24:23 Right. Now it looks like it looks like the other series.

Sarina: 24:27 It does, except the background is dark instead of light and there's no sports imagery on it. But you can tell from the typography and the minute I showed it to people (another author who reads some of my stuff) said, 'Oh, it's a Brooklyn book.' And then I knew exactly at that moment that I was right and that book ended up doing great. It hit USA Today at number 89. It's performed in line, the audio is selling well. Like everything about it did what I had originally expected it to, but I had confused my readers and they did not know what to make of that new cover.

Jess: 25:01 Well and how brave of you. Well, and keep in mind not only how brave of you to make a change at the last second, but making a change at the last second involved a lot of moving parts that a, you couldn't necessarily have anticipated like weird moving parts that that we can go into in just a second. But the other thing is, in terms of expectations, it's okay if your readers expect this to be a Brooklyn Bruiser's novel because they'll pick up that it kinda sorta a little bit is, but it's a new entryway into a whole new series. So, you didn't have to worry too much about people getting confused by it being, but not being, a Brooklyn Bruiser's novel.

Sarina: 25:43 Right. Because that was true. It's just that I had lost them at like maybe it doesn't have anything to do with any of your other books and that was a mistake. Basically I was kind of tired of putting shirtless men on my covers and I wanted something artsy and interesting and it didn't work. Like my readers were not ready. Well, they just weren't there for me to say, 'Hey, my brand today looks different, you have to respect the brand that you've built.' And that's the mistake I made.

KJ: 26:18 Here's a question. Does the illustrated trend extend to Indie and if so, is it a pricey thing to do to have an illustrated cover?

Sarina: 26:27 You know, Indies are a little confused about it, because many of our cover artists are not illustrators. And so I have some friends that have found good illustrators to make this trend work for them. And then there is stock illustration, though. So a good cover artist isn't necessarily going to freehand everything. Like you can find illustration vectors that will contain the imagery that you're looking for and you can move it around however you wish.

KJ: 27:04 Even publishers use that stuff. There is a little bird on the cover of How To Be a Happier Parent that I really loved and wanted to use in other places. And we had a problem because they had licensed it and they had only licensed it for cover use. So we worked it out. But yeah, even publishers use stock illustrations.

Sarina: 27:23 Of course they do.

Jess: 27:24 And publishers will also outsource stuff. There was one of my international editions, the publisher in that country wanted to use the original art from Gift of Failure in the U.S. and apparently my publisher had outsourced that art to someone that didn't necessarily work under that for Harper Collins. And so that art was no longer available because that person, for whatever reason wasn't making it available. So there's all kinds of snags that you can run up against with illustrators and licensing and all that stuff.

Sarina: 27:56 Yeah, I bet that like almost half of U.S. traditionally published books have some element of licensed stock art on them. I see it all over the place.

KJ: 28:11 And now we will all see it all over the place.

Jess: 28:15 Well, I'm in that phase right now where I'm paying a lot of attention to covers because the cover for my next book is going to be really, really tricky. Because for me, I would love it if people would see this next book and identify it somehow with me, or my brand, or my preexisting cover art. How exactly you convey the title (which by the way we think is probably gonna stick) we probably think we're going to stick with the title of The Addiction Inoculation. We had a very specific conversation about this. And there are some worrisome images that you could use.

KJ: 28:50 We've spent some time coming up with the worst possible combination of pencils and The Addiction Inoculation. We've enjoyed it, but you know, it's probably time to give it a rest.

Jess: 29:03 Exactly. So what they end up with, so now I have tastes in covers and they may not necessarily be what's on trend right now. So it's going to be really interesting to see what they come up with. And I'm going to be brainstorming a lot about what possible covers could look like. In fact, I even got an email recently from someone who said, 'You know what, I was in a bookstore recently and I had this idea for you.' And believe me, those things are welcome. I love that.

KJ: 29:30 So Sarina, walk us through creating a cover. As an Indie published author. Like where do you start? Where are you getting this art? Where do you find that person?

Sarina: 29:42 You know, there are 10 or 15 cover artists that my friends and I all use and you can look at somebody's copyright page and see who did their design. So that's one place to start. Or you can even search book cover art.

KJ: 30:03 Yeah. If you search this people definitely pop up. But I personally wouldn't have any way of evaluating them. I guess I could look at their covers because we can judge them by their book covers.

Sarina: 30:15 And I honestly look at designer's websites all the time and I rarely find what I'm looking for cause I'm just super picky now. But the important thing is to find someone who understands the genre because without that key component, it doesn't matter how talented they are. In romance, if somebody showed me a cover without humans on it in some way, I would not be able to take that. And of course these things are really dependent upon the location as well. So all of my German books have flowers on them or other vegetation and they are so pretty. There are just gorgeous. But the first time I saw that flower cover, or actually it was a tree for a different book, I was a little panicked. Like people won't know this is a romance if there's no people on it, it's a tree. How is anyone gonna understand? But that was me just trapped inside my own stereotypical understanding of what I see at the bookstore when I look at a cover and Germans just don't need that, I guess.

Jess: 31:30 The cultural divide can also be really interesting. One of my prettiest covers, I have no idea how it would get any Gift of Failure kind of idea across, it's Korean and it's got this beautiful deer on it. But someone told me that it actually appeals quite well in Korea. So who knows what I know. And by the way, your German covers I think are some of the most beautiful covers out there. I love them so much.

Sarina: 31:53 Well, they were just geniuses with this because the first flower one came out I believe in March or April. And I began seeing it all over Instagram next to pictures of real flowers and it just photographed really well. And the season hit it just right. And yeah, it's pretty great.

Jess: 32:41 The interesting thing is there are some people who also try to hook their website art into their cover art and some people's website art ended up, I'm thinking about Gretchen Rubin's specifically, she worked with a designer who sort of helped to do branding for her all over the place. And that art from the branding company ended up also being her cover art. And so, you know, there's all kinds of convoluted ways this can happen. But some of the most recognizable art out there, I think Gretchen's art is incredibly recognizable from her happiness project. And that was the result of a partnership with a branding company. So anyway, there are lots of ways to to tackle this beast, I suppose.

KJ: 33:28 Yeah. And then when you get your cover art, I would guess as an Indie, you probably want to make sure that you have it licensed so that you can use it in every possible scenario. And if you're working with a publisher, you can ask can I have the elements of the... So for example, I asked for the sunflower background so that I could use it as a background for social media and for for some paper stuff that I wanted. So it doesn't have the cover image, it only has the sunflowers on it. You can take your own cover art, whether it is Indie or publisher driven, and you can you can take a screenshot of a tiny chunk of the color and then just Google, what color is this? And pop the screenshot in there and it'll give you the number. So you'll get this crazy six digit/letter number that signifies that color digitally. And you can go to Canva and make your brand palette with your colors and you should. And then you can use that for everything. You can ask your publisher what your font is and then you'll have to look, maybe Canva and other places have that font. I actually had to buy the font that they used on my title for like $7.99 or whatever. But I bought it and I bought the license so that I can use it on cards and things like that. A publisher might pay for that for you, but in this case the amount that it cost to buy the font was not worth it. And then once you've bought the font, you can upload it to Canva. There's a lot you can do with this stuff once you've got it in hand.

Jess: 35:27 I have these lovely book plates with pencils on them and and that's been a wonderful thing to have and it matches the book. I love it. We are running up against the end of our time, but I wanna make sure we have time to talk about what we've been reading, cause I've been reading a lot.

KJ: 35:43 Are we done with talking about covers?

Jess: 35:45 I don't know. I'm happy to go over and I assume our listeners are happy to go over, but, but there's definitely a lot to talk about and definitely a lot to talk about when it comes to cultural stuff.

KJ: 36:00 Yeah, we didn't talk about like trends in nonfiction and the sort of the big book cover, which is basically nothing but letters on either a background or a background image. Or I was reading some interesting stuff about how there's a new trend for like having the illustration kind of overlap the letters. So that's a neat thing. I don't know. It's just fun to see what's coming and then watch for it. It makes you look at covers differently, even while all the while you're using them in your mind to judge whether or not you would want to read the book. Because the truth is that we do judge a book by its cover.

Jess: 36:39 Well, and you know, it was funny when I was looking at covers for Gift of Failure, I kept sending pictures to my agent of covers that I love. And she'd emailed back and she'd say, 'Yeah, Jess, that book sold like 40 copies.' And I was like, 'I can't help it that my my taste in book covers is a little esoteric, but whatever.' Books, let's do it people, What have you been reading, KJ?

KJ: 37:07 I've actually been reading a lot. It's been a good season for reading for me. So I've been all over Instagram with doing a new thing. I'm doing book chats, which Sarina also does, where I do a little video about the book that I've been reading. It's been a really good reading season, but I'm gonna pull one out. Partly because I like the cover. I just finished Tuesday Mooney Talks to Ghosts. I loved it. And it's got a gorgeous blue cover with this sort of Zodiac looking thing around the type. It's a big book cover in that the type takes up most of the cover, but there is a person on it. Do we think having the person on it sort of signifies fiction? I think it might.

Jess: 37:57 Really? Well, what are you talking about in terms of a person?

KJ: 38:01 This is an illustrated cover but it does have like a silhouette of a person. And now that I'm sort of coming to think of it, it's kind of rare to see silhouettes of people, or any form of people, or body part on nonfiction other than memoir. And I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but I'm just thinking about like what are the subliminal cues here?

Jess: 38:25 That's true, I hadn't thought about that.

KJ: 38:26 Anyway, Tuesday Mooney - it's a little bit ready player one-esque - there's a millionaire with a big game. There is a ghosty element, but it's not very strong. I don't know, it's not like magical realism world. It's very much the real world with a flare of ghostliness, which I like very much. The characters are all incredibly fun. No matter how small the character is in the book, you would totally have a beer with that person. And it really, as a writer, reminded me of what I think of as fun in a book and that I need to focus on those things. Anyway, recommend.

Sarina: 39:11 I can't wait to read it.

Jess: 39:13 Is that it or do you have anymore?

KJ: 39:14 That's it, I'm going to leave the others for other episodes.

Jess: 39:18 Okay. So I have a couple. Sarina, do you mind if I go next?

Sarina: 39:23 You should go next because I don't have a meaningful contribution.

Jess: 39:26 Okay. Well I have a fair number because I've been traveling a fair amount to speak and so that means audio books, obviously, and lots of time on planes. And I was in New York walking all over New York. I got so much great walking done and listening to books. Speaking of great covers. I just finished a book by Christopher McDougall who wrote Born to Run and a couple of other books. You know the one about the, the Mara tribe running this ultra marathon. His new book is Running with Sherman, and Sherman is a donkey. So, of course there is a fantastic picture of a donkey on the cover of this book. And so obviously nonfiction, tells you exactly what the book is going to be about, it's about running with a donkey, and it's great. I loved the book. Christopher McDougall is so good at doing going off on really appropriate tangents, whether that's relationships with animals, mental health. There's a whole side story because of one person in the book about a mental health issue and how animals can affect your mental health. And anyway, so the story of Sherman, this donkey that he rescued from near death and then ended up running a long distance sort of burrow. It's a thing apparently, running with burrows. And it's very, very funny. So that book had a great cover. And then two of the books I listened to, both of which were kind of romcom were illustrated. One was Frankly in Love by David Yoon, and that was a YA. Although, that line between upper YA and adult YA it's such a fine and silly line. But this book was fantastic.

KJ: 41:15 Tuesday Mooney sits on that line, too.

Jess: 41:18 Really?

KJ: 41:18 Totally. It's totally got YA characters, some of them, but it's also got adult characters. Well, you know what Ready Player One sits on that line. I read it, my kids read it.

Jess: 41:29 And this is definitely a first love story and it's a kid finishing high school and going into college kind of thing. But I also learned a ton about Korean culture. The characters are Korean and it was a wonderful love story. And then the other illustrated cover romcom book I read (that I just started today and I'm already completely in love with) is Twice in a Blue Moon by Christina Lauren. And I did not know until Sarina told me that these are two separate authors. I did not realize that they're a team.

Sarina: 42:02 Yeah, Christina and Lauren.

Jess: 42:04 And it sounds like they have what, like 30 books under their belt and they're great. Well, this one so far is fantastic. It's there is an echo of The Accidentals there, Sarina, that's really interesting. And it's just a really fun story to listen to while I'm baking and things like that. And there were also two books that I'm not gonna mention that I wanted to throw across the room in frustration because they didn't stick the landing. And that was incredibly frustrating for me, especially since one of them is in all the airport bookstores because it's a current bestseller at Hudson Books. And I just get so angry. Like this has happened to us many times where I say, 'There's this book, I'm so excited, it's on the best seller list and it's another suspense kind of story. And I get so excited and I get into the characters and then, man, it just falls flat at the end and I get so angry.

KJ: 43:04 Endings are hard. I mean I read something recently, which I will at some point talk about on an episode cause I did end up liking it, but I'm not going to name it right now because this is mildly critical, you know at the end you could see the wheels, you know the machine was cranking. It's hard, I mean I think you could say that about almost any book if you lose your suspension of disbelief for any reason and yet you still keep reading. And sometimes as writers, I think we might lose our suspension of disbelief in ways that we wouldn't as readers. Like something pulls you out and makes you go, 'Oh, I remember them putting this in in chapter four.' And then all of a sudden you're watching the writing and now it's hard not to see the machine moving because you know that there's a machine.

Jess: 43:56 One of the two books that I wanted to throw across the room though, had a clanking machine so loud that I nearly said out loud on the streets of New York, 'That makes no sense and could never happen.' I was so irritated. It was just really, really irritating to me. But I guess I'll leave it at that. You know, I have some other critical things to say, but it's been a really fun reading period because I've realized I've got some dark stuff going on that I'm dealing with personally. And so I'm in that happy place with romcoms and that's really, really fun. Alright, I think we're good people. I think I missed you guys cause cause you did one without me and so I'm so happy to be back.

KJ: 45:07 Before we sign off, let me just remind everybody that if you would like the show notes for this episode, you can always find them at amwritingpodcast.com. If you are interested in getting our top fives for writers, which come out weekly, the most recent one was top five BookBub with secrets for authors. You can also go to amwritingpodcast.com and sign up to be a supporter of the podcast. Do that and the weekly top fives will drop into your mailbox as well as our new mini supporter episodes of which we have so far recorded one. And we're loving building this writerly community, which I might add, you can also check out on Facebook by looking for the AmWriting group.

Jess: 46:02 Okay, until next week everyone, keep your butts in the chair and your head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 187 #TheThankYouProjectProject Nov 29, 2019

The infamous how-to meets self-help meets memoir-with-a-dash-of-stunt genre. It may be awkwardly named, but we love it.

This week’s guest didn’t realize she was laying the groundwork for her first book when she decided to write 50 thank you notes to the people, things and places that shaped her in honor of her 50th birthday—but of course she was When you can define a thing and the time frame and the reasons for doing it so clearly, what else can you do but inspire other people to do the same? But the road from I’m doing this thing to I’m publishing this book isn’t clear (although in this case it was lightning fast). This week, Nancy Davis Kho talks to us about what it took to make her book saleable, then write the damn thing and make it really really good.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, did you catch the #WritersTopFive that popped into your inbox Monday? (And if it didn’t, HELLO, you need to subscribe to our free weekly #AmWriting emails!)

That was just a little taste. We do those every week. I just scheduled Top Five Reference Books for All Novelists, and Three More for Special Occasions, and you don’t want to miss it. (You won’t believe the kinds of things that can be turned into an encyclopedias or dictionary.) We also recorded the first of many #MiniSupporter episodes that will slip right into the podcast feeds of #AmWriting supporters everywhere.Support the podcast you love AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

Aya deLeon, author of the Justice Hustlers series.

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Nancy: The Good Lord Bird, James McBride

Jess: Sense and Sensibility, narrated by Kate Winslet

KJ: What Should I Read Next—the podcast from Anne Bogel, aka the Modern Mrs Darcy. (I’m obsessed with it. I’ve found so many great new reads!)

#FaveIndieBookstore

A Great Good Place for Books, Oakland

Our guest for this episode is Nancy Davis Kho, author of The Thank You Project and host of the Midlife Mixtape podcast. Find the book, the podcast and all things Nancy HERE.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ: 00:02 Hey there listeners, it's KJ. What with Jess starting in on a new project lately, we've been talking a lot about nonfiction and research. If that's your kind of work, our sponsor, Author Accelerator can help and you don't have to go all in with full on book coaching if you're not ready. Check out their new four week long nonfiction framework program that will help you nail down your structure before you start to write, or after your writing and realizing, dang, this thing needs a backbone. Authors of self-help, how-to, and academic texts will find the shape of their books, create a working one page summary that helps reveal that shape at a glance, and develop a flexible table of contents to guide you through the drafting and revision process. You can find a lot more, including previews of much of the material, by going to authoraccelerator.com/nonfictionframework. Is it recording?

Jess: 00:02 Now it's recording.

KJ: 00:02 Yay.

Jess: 00:02 Go ahead.

KJ: 01:00 This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess: 01:01 Alright. Let's start over.

KJ: 01:06 Awkward pause, I'm going to rustle some papers. Now one, two, three. Hey, I am KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting the podcast about all things writing - nonfiction, fiction, book proposals, essays, not poetry. I made that joke a few weeks ago, but I just can't stop because I feel like it's not all the things. I am KJ Dell'Antonia, your rambling host, and this is the podcast about getting your work done.

Jess: 01:45 And I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of the Gift of Failure and a forthcoming book. It won't be till spring of 2021, a book on preventing substance abuse in kids and you can find me at the New York Times, and at the Atlantic, and at the Washington Post. And we have such a guest today. We have such a guest.

KJ: 02:05 I didn't really introduce myself.

Jess: 02:06 Go ahead, please go.

KJ: 02:08 I just introduced myself as your rambling host and I am so much more than that.

Jess: 02:13 You go, and then we'll let that weird person who no one even knows, we'll let her talk after. But KJ, you go first.

KJ: 02:24 I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of the novel The Chicken Sisters, which you can't buy yet, but you'll be able to next summer and believe me, you'll hear all about it. Also of How To Be a Happier Parent. I'm the former editor of the Motherlode blog at the New York Times, where I sometimes still contribute and I am working on novel number, whatever it is if you count the ones in the drawer and we don't know if it will be published, that's what I'm doing. So that's who I am and why you should (or should not) listen to me.

Jess: 02:57 We have a guest today who you should definitely listen to. Because she's hysterical, and wonderful, and funny, and has a book coming out that is fantastic and very near and dear to my heart. We are talking today to Nancy Davis Kho. She is a writer. She's written for Washington Post, San Francisco Chronicle, Adirondack Life, The Rumpus, all these various places. She's in an anthology called Listen To Your Mother: What She Said Then, What We're Saying Now. And Listen To Your Mother, by the way, is hysterical if you've never come across it before. Nancy has a fantastic book coming out this month that is, as I said, so near and dear to my heart because it's about thanking people. And so, thank you Nancy, for being on the podcast today.

Nancy: 03:41 I pretty much wrote a book in order to be on your podcast, just so you know.

Jess: 03:46 Nancy has her own podcast, one of my very favorites. It's the Midlife Mixtape podcast and if you are not already listening, you should. Because it's wonderful, and fantastic, and it makes me very happy every single time I listen to it.

Nancy: 04:03 You guys are so nice. Can I call you every morning, Jess, and just have you say, 'You matter.'

Jess: 04:09 I love this book, not only because thank you notes are really important part of not only my personal life but my professional life, but because I feel like KJ and I have had a personal stake in the project because we've gotten to hear about the process of you writing this book, and pitching this book, and how it all came about. So we usually like to start by talking sort of about how you got started writing, KJ often likes to ask what the first thing you got paid to write was, and we'll go from there.

Nancy: 04:44 Oh wow, I'll have to think about the answer to that question. Thank you so much for having me on the show. And also you guys have been such tremendous cheerleaders and sources of real pragmatic information. I have listened to so many of your episodes and just scribble down as I'm going because this podcast is so invaluable in helping people as they're going into various, you know, the first time you're doing this, the first time you're doing that, you guys have had guests on who've talked about that. So it's such a great resource and I really am honored to be on the show.

Jess: 05:20 And you're going to have to listen to some of the publicity episodes - like the marketing and publicity episodes.

Nancy: 05:26 Jess, am I brand new? I've already listened. I started listening to them a second time, please. The one where you guys were talking about your book launch plans. I listen to podcasts oftentimes when I'm hiking and I can picture the stretch of the Oakland Hills where I was, where KJ was talking about how many rows were in the spreadsheet and I was like, 'I can't do all of this. God.' But it was good.

KJ: 05:53 You're just lucky Jess didn't talk about how many rows in her spreadsheet.

Jess: 05:58 Tell us about how you got started.

Nancy: 06:02 My background is in international business. I studied that in college. I got a couple of degrees in that, I picked up a husband in an international business program. So it all worked out. And I spent about 17 years doing that and I loved it. But whenever anybody would ask me, 'If you could do anything, what would you want to do?' I would say, 'Oh, I'd like to be a writer.' Here's my reason: it seems portable, I think I could do that from anywhere. That was my basic feeling about it. But I did always love writing. And you know, I've been an avid reader. All of us, right? Anybody listening to this show, we've all been reading since we were in short pants. And nothing like a 40th birthday to give you a bit of an identity crisis. And I thought, 'My God, I'm going to turn 40. And I tell people I want to be a writer. I've never tried. Maybe I should try writing. That would be a thing I could do.' So I took a class the summer before I turned 40 and by the time I finished (it was a class in creative memoir or I think it was just personal essays) and by the time I finished the class, I'd had two things published. And I was like, 'You know what? I love this.' I loved getting the byline and I just loved the process of writing. So that is now 13 years ago in the rear view mirror. And I thought at the time, as you do when you're a beginner at anything, I was like, 'Hmm, what's the hardest thing that I'm not qualified to do? I know I will write a novel of historical fiction that deals with race issues from the standpoint of a white woman. That's what the world needs now.' So I commenced to spending six years researching and writing a novel that is composting very nicely in a drawer. I can see which drawer in my office it is sitting in right now. And that was hard work. I told my husband, 'I'm a writer now, I'm going to quit my corporate job. Neglecting to factor in that I had two small kids who needed (we live in the Bay area, everybody needs to work) So it was a bumpy time - the writing I loved, the researching I loved, like the whole writing part of it was great. It was trying to figure out how to balance the lifestyle with that that was challenging. And also just realizing how much I had to learn as a writer. And I think one of the messages I try to put on the podcast all the time, so the Midlife Mixtape Podcast is about the years between being hip and breaking one. And I started it because I wanted there to be a counter narrative to midlife being a crisis because what I found was that it wasn't an identity crisis to become a writer. It was like I was adding something to myself. I was doing something that made me happy. And now it didn't work right out of the gate. I didn't publish a novel when I was 41, but I was challenging myself, and learning new stuff, and eventually I ended up going back to corporate work and doing that part time. And that's kind of been my gig ever since. I have a day job, I work in digital content licensing. I really like it, I have mastery at it, I've been doing it for years and years. And then I have this creative side where I can do the writing. So I think as a writer, I just feel like I've been pragmatic in terms of forgiving myself for not being successful right away. And so, I spent six years getting better and better and still not having a novel that needed to see the light of day. And then when I finished with that, I got frustrated and I had started the blog, Midlife Mixtape, and I realized that what felt very comfortable to me was humor writing. It came to me naturally. I'm the youngest of three in a family of very funny people and you really have to bring your A game all the time in my family. So, for me that was a much easier voice to write in. I always say my goal is to sound like Erma Bombeck meets David Sedaris, you know, not mean spirited but funny, and kind of poignant. And so after a little while writing in that voice on Midlife Mixtape, I thought, 'I know I'll write a book about my midlife music crisis.' And I wasn't really having a midlife music crisis, to be honest. What had happened is, I went to a concert and a bouncer said to me, 'Are you just here to drop off your kids?' I mean, I've been an avid concert goer since I was 14 and that shook me. So I was like, 'Oh, maybe I am too old to go to a Vampire Weekend concert. Maybe I should try to find more midlife appropriate music.' But the truth was, I still kept going to shows like that. I started going to the symphony, I started going to heavy metal shows, I was trying all different kinds of stuff. But I felt like I was manufacturing the arc of my story a little bit. And I think that always kind of stuck with me that I was telling a funny story people could relate to, this memoir that I spent only three years writing that one. So I doubled my speed from which I had written the historical fiction novel. But there was something about that story that never connected, even for me, because I just felt like, okay. As this one writing mentor of mine said, 'What, you wanted to go to a concert, you kept going to concerts. There's not a lot of character change here, you know. Any good memoir needs that needs that arc.' And so I got to see a lot of fun shows and I wrote about those on the blog. But that book also came closer to what I wanted to write, but it still wasn't quite the right thing. So that one went into a drawer and that was now I guess about three years ago, four years ago.

Jess: 11:55 Well, and I have to say you're definitely learning your lessons. Because all of the things you're criticizing about the early work that stayed in the drawer is like the antithesis of what I found when I opened The Thank You Project. So keep going with your story, but I just want to say that like all of these realizations, you're having, you know, the sort of there being no trajectory, there being no personal connection. Like that's what The Thank You Project is about from the very first page, a very personal project that came out of a very important moment in your life. I think even if I didn't know you personally, I would be very connected with you as a writer from the first page of this book. So, those lessons were really important for you to learn. I think that's how we get there, as KJ and I both know, you got to write a lot of bad stuff.

KJ: 12:48 We never talk about this, but you and I both, Jess, have memoirs in drawers.

Jess: 12:53 Yup. Yeah we do.

KJ: 12:54 I mean that just, it just doesn't come up. Like we talk a lot about my novel in a drawer. But it rarely comes up that I have, I can't remember if I wrote the whole thing, but I definitely have a memoir proposal in the drawer. And you have a memoir proposal and I think pretty much the memoir.

Jess: 13:10 Oh no, I have the whole thing. I sold chunks of it as essays and and that was sort of the thing I got out of it.

Nancy: 13:22 Well, and I think this is really my message to anybody who's listening, and feeling frustrated, and wondering why the project isn't working. Fast forward to spring of 2018, which is when the idea for this book, The Thank You Project, came along and I know we're going to talk about it, but my message is every misstep I took was actually getting me closer to this book that I feel so strongly about, I feel so proud of, I feel like I'm the right person to tell this story that's in this book. And all that other stuff, all those years I wasn't getting published. What was I doing? I was meeting great writers. I was reading books by great writers. I was very happily sharing the work of other writer friends and promoting them and I was getting better at my craft. I was building my network of support. And so now I'm hugely gratified, but you know, there's so many people trying to help me with this book and that's because I put in 12 years of work that didn't feel at the time like it was amounting to anything. But now it's all paying off. So anybody who's listening and feeling frustrated, I would just say, please don't give up. Because there's a reason, there's a path.

Jess: 15:03 Well what's funny is before I wrote the proposal, as KJ well knows, for the book I just finished, I actually went through the trouble of writing proposals for a bunch of books that weren't quite right and what they were was sort of circling around the topic, but also really important work for me to do to figure out, Oh okay, so this aspect of this topic fits in somewhere, but I'm not quite sure how. So that finally when that idea comes, you have some familiarity with the things that aren't particularly interesting, or working, or whatever. So when you have that moment, it's super exciting when you have that idea for, Oh this is the thing. In fact, I pulled off the road and I texted Sarina and KJ right away and said, 'This is it. This is the thing, I know this is the right thing.'

Nancy: 16:26 Well, and that's how it felt. So the book is called The Thank You Project: Cultivating Happiness One Letter of Gratitude at a Time. And what happened was I found an agent for that music memoir, it did not sell. And I really had a time where I thought maybe I'm not a writer, I know I'm good at writing these little blog posts and I get essays published, but maybe I don't have it in me to do a full length work. So I'm going to take this creative energy and I started the podcast and turns out I love podcasting; I'm a tech nerd at heart. A lot of the work I did the first 17 years of my career was in the software industry. So I love working, learning new technology, and everything. I was really struggling a little bit with this idea that maybe I'm not an author, I'm a writer, but not an author. I guess that's probably not an uncommon thing. And it occurred to me one day (and I was 49) it occurred to me that the reason my book didn't sell was because my character, myself in the memoir, wasn't unhappy. There wasn't a transition because she started off happy and she ended up happy. And I'm like, that's not a problem, that's something to be really grateful for. And this was at the end of 2015, and in 2016 I was going to turn 50. And I'm like, 'You know what, the thing I should do to honor and commemorate my 50th birthday is to thank the people that have made it possible for me to be where I am.' You know, my parents were alive, my husband's great, been married to him since forever, we've got two girls, you know, everything's fine. So I thought the way I want to celebrate my 50th year is I will write a letter every week, a thank you letter once a week, to somebody who has helped, or shaped, or inspired me up to this point in my life. And of course when you tell the universe that you're doing this because everything's going great, everything goes to s**t pretty darn quickly. So I started writing my letters and it was really great. I'd sit down every week and you know, write a letter to my nephew Tristan, or to my friend Kitty who lives in Australia. And it just was wonderful every week to sit down and think about this person who had been meaningful in my life and what lessons that I learned from them and how they'd help me.

KJ: 18:44 I'm going to interrupt, cause I know where you're going. At this point, this isn't a book?

Nancy: 18:49 No, no. These are just letters.

KJ: 18:51 This is just something you're doing. So this is not like stunt journalism, in which you're, 'I don't know what I'll do. I'll write...' This is a genuine thing, right?

Nancy: 18:59 I wasn't even an author at that point, anymore. I'd kind of tried it and not gotten through anything. So I was just writing thank you letters because that seemed like a good way to mark a period of my life. So halfway through the year, my dad gets diagnosed with cancer and he is gone in six weeks. We had no idea he was sick. My older daughter left for college a couple of weeks after the funeral and that was certainly not a sad thing, but it was a big adjustment to have your older kid to go off to school and she goes to school on the East coast. So she's far. And then it was the 2016 presidential election, so everybody's anxiety level was through the roof. And I realized the worse things got, the more I needed the thank you letters. Because it was just this moment every week where I could crowd out all this sadness, and this tension, and the worry, and I'd be like, 'Hmm, I'm gonna write a letter to the city of Oakland. Because you know what? It's not even just people who have shaped me, it's places I've lived. And then I had a period of writing letters to cities and then I started writing letters to dead authors. Like I love Jane Austen. I'm going to write her a letter, but I'm going to have to explain some things to her. And it got to be really fun. And anyway, I got to the end of the 50 letters, (took me longer than a year) printed them all out, bound them in a book, and flip through that book all the time. You know, you rifle through it and you go, 'Oh yeah, my Aunt Nooney is so nice to me.' You're having a bad day, read about what your Aunt Nooney did for you. You know, it'll cheer you up, it'll remind you that when you're in hardship, you've almost never been alone. That there's always people around you. So, just in and of its own self as a writing exercise, writing the thank you letters was really important. So now it's spring of 2018 and one of the people who got the letters, Ann Imig who is the editor of the Listen To Your Mother Anthology and the founder of that empire said, 'Nancy, that's your book. You need to tell people how to do this.' And I'm like, 'What? It's so straightforward. You write a thank you letter.' But then another friend of ours who knew that I had done it, sat me down and she's like, 'Okay, who did you write to? How long was the letter? What did you put in the letter? How did you organize it?' And I answered questions for her for like an hour. And I thought, 'Okay, maybe it's not as straightforward as I thought it was.' So I thought, you know, at this point, the podcast was cooking along, my day job's cooking along. My kids are, you know, I've got one in college, one in high school, nobody needs me around anymore. I got some free time. So I thought I'll just start writing a few chapters of this, just think about how I would write a book that explains to people how to do their own thank you project. And it poured out of me, I wrote that proposal so quickly. Why? Because I had two other book proposals that I'd already done. Yes, I wrote a book proposal for a fiction novel. Don't ask me, I know it's wrong. And now I know that. At the time when I was writing my historical fiction I didn't know. So, there's the reason I wrote two proposals because when I really needed one, I literally just could do a find replace, for the most part. So it was just kind of a proof of concept to myself that this could be something. And I wasn't going to get an agent, because agents hadn't sold my book before, so why would I bother? And then people like KJ, and Jess, and a couple other people said, 'You should talk to an agent.' So I started in April 2018, at the end of May 2018 I reached out to a few agents who I'd met in person and online, and three or four of them came back and said, 'I would love to see this proposal.' And I was like, 'Oh, that's weird.' And I got it out the door. And then the timeframe was I signed with our wonderful agent (we all have the same one, Laurie Abkemeier) who's been wonderful, signed with her in June, we worked on the proposal together in July, and I signed a deal with Running Press in the end of August. This is all last year. So I signed the deal with Running Press in August. My deadline was November 15th for the finished book.

Jess: 23:16 You had written parts of it -Yes? No?

Nancy: 23:19 Well, I'd written the first three chapters that belonged in the proposal...

Jess: 23:25 So what had you been smoking to make you think that you could set a deadline that quickly? What was the thinking behind that?

Nancy: 23:33 I knew how to write this book, I knew how to tell this story. I'd written the letters. I knew how impactful they could be. I really wanted other people to know. I am spiritual, I'm a church lady, I go to this Episcopal church. And I do think this is one of those cases where I was given a message to share because that's something I can do. I can tell like a funny, uplifting story. It's taken me 13 years, but I know how to do that. In the places where the other two books had been a struggle - I don't want to say I couldn't have told those stories, but this one just was easy for me. I just knew what I wanted to say, and I and I knew how to say it. And let's face it, I do use snippets of the letters and there were days that I needed the #AmWriting podcast, I'm like, 'Ooh, I need a burn chart. I need to know what my daily word count is. And there were days where I'm like, 'Well I'm talking about a letter to write to a doctor, maybe I'll include a snippet of the letter I wrote to my OB.' I just covered my word chart, like put in two paragraphs, and I'd be done, go get my coffee. So there was a little bit of source material in that I do include snippets of my letters to kind of get people started. But I didn't want it to just be my letters. I ended up interviewing a few people who had done something similar, so I've got some other people's examples. And then the thing that I loved about writing the book was that it gave me a chance to delve into the science of happiness and gratitude. Cause I didn't want it to just be, 'This is what I did, so you should try it.' I wanted to steep it in some quantitative research that talks about why gratitude letters are so magic. And you know, low and behold, during those 13 years when I was freelance writing, I interviewed a bunch of happiness researchers for various publications. So I had the Rolodex - does anybody listening know what a Rolodex is? I had the phone numbers, okay? So I called the researchers and I got to interview them and you know, again, that was not wasted time. All of that stuff is why I could do it in two and a half months.

Jess: 25:50 And it's why KJ, over and over again, insists that I'm not allowed to say, 'You know, boy, I got really lucky with Gift of Failure, right place, right time.' Well, no, it was a lot of work and it's that work that other people don't see.

KJ: 26:04 Preparation meeting opportunity.

Jess: 26:06 Yeah, exactly. There you go. There you go. The thing that I was really interested in - let's say you've got all of these letters, and you've got this idea about how you want to do this. In terms of organization, I really liked the way you organize the book and it was a little unexpected. I thought it was going to be like sequential, but you did a really interesting thing with the organization. I'm kinda wondering how you arrived at that particular sequence.

Nancy: 26:37 Welcome to my brain, cause I do think it's sequential. I knew that I wanted the introduction because (I'm not gonna give away the whole introduction) but basically when my dad got his letter (I wrote to him and my mom first) and my dad was very cute and called me and he's like, 'Aww, Nance, I loved it. I put it in a frame and it's over my desk.' So I knew I wanted to start with the fact that my dad had this letter framed and sitting over his desk. And then I figured I would need to go through exactly all the questions that Melissa asked me on the porch that day. Like, 'Who did you write to? How did you...' So there's a first chapter that's all about how you can organize this. And I want to say at the outset, throughout this book, I say, 'But that's what I did, do what you want.' Like nobody is in charge of your pace, what you write, who you write to. And the amazing thing about gratitude letters (as I found out from the researchers) is that even just thinking about what you would put in a letter creates happiness benefits for you. So it's all about firing the neurons and getting the positive outlook kind of codified within your brain pan. That's how I would explain it. So writing it down is great, but even if you read this book, and just think about the things that I'm talking about, people will get benefits. But then, after that section, the whole rest of the book is, here's the kinds of people who you might want to think about writing. And I think some of the categories are obvious - from friends and family. Although less obvious, because do you ever write a thank you letter to your spouse, or to your kid, or to your parent? Probably not. You know, there's a whole category of people that we take for granted and so that's kind of where I start. And part of the reason is because it gets the juices flowing for when you're writing the thank you letters, you know, you have a lot of source material for those people. But as I went through my own process and I just kept coming back to this idea of, okay, who helped me, shaped me, inspired me. Well, one of the people who helped me was my German ex-boyfriend when I lived in Germany and didn't know how to file taxes. It didn't work out with him. But man, he made sure my taxes were done every year on time and properly, and I wouldn't have been able to stay in Germany if I'd screwed up, their bureaucracy is on it. Like I'm sure they would've found me and sent me back to America. So I wrote a letter to him and this is when I figured out that I could write letters and not send them. Nobody needed to know that I was doing this. So I could write a thank you letter to anybody. I could write it to my childhood bully; I was so sensitized to bullying because I had been a victim of it, that my kids from the minute they started school, we talked about bullying. What do you do if you see it? What do you do? How do you help somebody going through it? How do you make sure you're never the perpetrator? You know, I'm not sure I would have been so tuned into that if I hadn't known this person. Now, that was a letter I actually chose not to write. That was one where I was like, 'You know what, I don't want to spend any more time on her.' But you could. And so, it was fun to kind of expand and so I did that in writing my own letters. But in writing the book, what I loved was thinking about, 'Well, who's going to read this? Could be anybody.' So what other things, like what's outside of my world, that I should think about and prompt people to write about. Like, I've never been in the army, but I made sure to say like, 'You might want to write a letter to your drill instructor.' You know, there's so many kinds of people, and I just tried really hard in writing it to have as an inclusive tone as I could. And I had a few people read it who had very different experiences from me, and that's what I asked them to read for. I wanted to make sure that someone who wasn't heterosexual would also feel like this book spoke to them and somebody who wasn't white would also feel...So I was at a conference that I had the chance to hear Aya de Leon, do you guys know her? She's a Bay area writer and professor. She writes these really great crime capers with African-American heroines. And a lot of times her heroines are sex workers and she's really about like, they're very feminist, but they kind of they have a message that's a little bit hidden.

Jess: 31:18 I'm looking at the covers right now, they're so good. They're these women, sort of face forward at the camera, The Boss, and then another one called Side Chick Nation, and another one called Uptown Thief. They're fantastic covers, I love them. And really strong women with their shoulders back and sort of facing you like, yeah, bring it. I like it.

Nancy: 31:40 Right. And she's really smart. And at this conference I went to, she was just saying, 'If you want to write diverse character well, have diverse friends.' I just thought that's so obvious. But as writers, if you want to reach out to a diverse audience, make sure you've got those people in your real life so that you can go to them. And that was, again, my 13 years of preparation. I knew who I could ask to read for different things. And so that was a part of the review process.

Jess: 32:14 One of the things that you said, you asked a lot of people who had experience outside of yours to help you, but the thing that you did really well in the book is to create these ideas about how you should think about the thank you notes. And one of the things you said was, 'Who or what has shaped me?' And that is such a personal question, but a question that is universal. Because as you said, it could be the ex-boyfriend that things didn't work out with. But everyone's got those people that you realize, Oh wow, I didn't actually thank that person. And it may not have been a particularly positive experience at the time, but that question alone right there, I think, makes the book nice and generalizes it for everyone. I love that question.

Nancy: 32:56 Well, and I hope that given that it's coming out before we start another presidential election year, people are so isolated and people are so quick to judge now, and maybe we always were, but it just feels different. And part of what I think these letters can do is remind us the small ways that people in our lives have helped us. Even if we were on opposite sides of a divide now, they've made a difference for us. And just sending those letters (or even if you write and it's not possible for you to send it) even writing it to remind yourself of the humanity of the people on the receiving end, I think is really powerful. So I'm glad it's coming out when it does, I hope it is helpful for people next year. I'm just really excited for it to come out. Can I say one thing? Because of this audience, I think I can share this. The one thing that I wanted to mention is that the same week that I got the book deal, my mom was diagnosed with lymphoma. And my mom's 86, and she's in an assisted living place, and she's got dementia. And they initially gave my mom a two and a half month...I was going to say sentence. That's what it felt like, they said that's how much time she has left. And it was awful, because on the same week I got this amazing news, I got horrible news. And I'm not going to leave you in suspense, Mom's doing fine, we took her to a specialist a few weeks later who kind of said, 'It's not nearly as dire as the first guy said and here's a bunch of treatment options.' And so mom is hanging in, she still loves John Denver, we talk a lot about John Denver. No, but it was a real exercise in compartmentalization. That's why I bring it up, because I knew I had to get this book done, and my siblings are amazing. I would have probably said like, 'I can just not do the book.' and they would have never forgiven me. So they're like, 'Figure out what your schedule is, come home if you can, and you'll get it done.' So the shitty first draft was done in six weeks, and I flew to Rochester to visit with my mom, and spent a week with her, came back, and then I finished the book after that. And the whole time I just had to keep these two things separate, because I could not have finished the book otherwise. And when it was over, I completely fell apart for a little while. And the irony was, writing the thank you notes again, writing about thank you notes, I got to kind of use them a second time in just the same way that I had the first time I wrote the letters. You know, to kind of say, 'My mom's got an X-Ray today, and we don't know what it's going to find, but Hey, I'm writing about how funny it was that time I wrote a letter to so-and-so.' If you think of writers sitting in a cabin somewhere, and having all their diversions taken away, and there's nothing but good whiskey and the sound of this pounding surf, I think that's b******t. You know, you just have to write through what you have to write through. And I felt lucky to have the opportunity. Who's the biggest reader I know? My mom, you know, back when she could read, I was not going to let her down.

Jess: 36:39 Is she pretty stoked for you?

Nancy: 36:42 She's pretty hilarious, my mother. She is stoked; she remembers that I have a book, that's landed somewhere, I don't think she knows what it's about. She's astonished that I told her I will bring her a book in person and hand deliver it to her. Well, she literally was the one who put the love of reading in me, so there you go.

KJ: 37:06 I mean we'd all like that cabin, but you know, both Jess and I had big deadlines this year, and we both also had big personal stuff that our families overall prefer that we left as as family. But yeah, it's part of being a pro, and it's also just part of like embracing that part of who we are. It's like, you know, I'm a writer, I'm a writer with the sick parent. I'm a writer with whatever other problem that you have. But I'm a writer and this is what I'm doing now, and then in three hours I'll be doing something else. And I think you're so right to shout that out, because I know frequently I will sit there with my personal problems and with my deadline and go, 'Other people don't have to deal with this.' But honestly, yes they do.

Jess: 38:07 Yeah. There were plenty of times going towards this deadline where I would hang up the phone having dealt with some of the personal stuff that was going on, and just take a couple of really deep breaths, maybe have a good cry, and then turn on my monitor, and get back to work.

Nancy: 38:21 Did you both feel like the writing part was like safe haven? Because that's how I felt. And then I was writing from like five to seven in the morning, cause I still had the day job. But I was like jumping out of bed cause I knew the next two hours I'll be happy.

KJ: 38:39 Having the abiity to focus on it - like having spent, (you've been talking about putting in the work) having spent the past decade or more, turning stuff off, and turning to the keyboard or the paper or whatever, and saying, 'You know I got to get this.' So having that practice, the ability to just shut everything else down and focus on it, I've been so grateful - past-me for teaching present-me to do that. So thank you letter to her, I guess.

Jess: 39:13 It was also really nice for me occasionally to not feel guilty. You know, I feel like when other people need me or I'm supposed to be feeling a certain way about something, it's nice to have a pass to say, 'Nope, I can't do that. I can't spend emotional attention on that right now because this has to happen.' I have this deadline, so I get to turn that off for a minute and not feel guilty about feeling bad for someone else while I can focus on the words. And so for me, it was an incredible safe haven. It was license for me to focus on something else that really was about what I love doing. And if I hadn't had that, I think it would have been an even more challenging summer than it was. But this really gave me a way out of that.

Nancy: 40:02 So the message is for writers, if you're having a terrible time, try writing, maybe that will cheer you up.

Jess: 40:08 Well, but we do have to move on to what we've been reading because we're running over, so let's talk about what we've been reading. Nancy, would you like to tell us?

Nancy: 40:33 Yes. So I was visiting my mom two weeks ago, and even if she can't read anymore, she still demands that we do. And in the assisted living place, there's a giant bookcase outside her apartment, and she always makes me take a book when we go by, just take one. They don't care, just take one. So I grabbed one off the top. It was The Good Lord Bird by James McBride, which was a 2013 national book winner that I finally got to in 2019, it's been out for a while. Oh my gosh, I loved it so much. I actually just finished it last night. Ironically, one of the small characters in the book is the main character in my historical fiction novel in a drawer. So I think maybe that's why I avoided it. I didn't want to see him be alive in somebody else's book. But oh, it was fantastic. It was like Mark Twain on steroids. I loved it. It's all about John Brown and Harper's Ferry. I love abolitionist. You know, abolition is lit. And it's really, really well done. It's a fun story.

Jess: 41:34 Yeah, that shelf in the bookstore, it's the popular one, The Abolition Is Lit shelf. I have a whole shelf on fishing in New England in the 1850s or so. That's a whole section in my library cause I'm obsessed with the whole Gloucester, fishermen thing. That's a thing for me. I'm still reading away on some of the stuff that's on my Audible. But I will say, that I just found out and I had mentioned this before, that when I am writing stuff, I like to reread things that are comforting, and I had been relistening to a whole bunch of Jane Austen and I just found out that there is a recording of Sense and Sensibility with Kate Winslet. And so that is going to be a evening listen for me.

KJ: 42:33 We have recorded multiple episodes this week and I am out, but I have already shouted out the What Should I Read Next? Podcast, but I have to shout it out again. So it's What Should I Read Next? With Anne Bogle, who some might know as the Modern Mrs. Darcy, she's had a blog for a long time. So I listened to an episode of this podcast earlier this week and I ended up downloading samples of four different books and they only talked about like eight. Somebody goes on and says, 'These are the books I like and this is what I'd like to read next.' And it's just such an incredible joy. So, try the podcast and I guarantee that you will come away with something to read, even if I can't suggest anything at the moment. Yeah, it's a really good one.

Jess: 43:34 Alright, Nancy, do you have a bookstore you love?

Nancy: 43:38 I very much have a bookstore I love, it's called A Great Good Place for Books, here in Oakland up in the Montclair neighborhood. And Kathleen Caldwel,l who owns it, is the neighborhood treasurer. Everybody's kid has worked at that bookstore at some point. And she pays them in books and it's just fantastic. In fact, Great Good Place is doing my launch party, which is on December 3rd, and she's just one of those people you walk in the door and she says, 'Oh, Nancy, I knew you were coming in this week, so I've put aside three books for you.' And my favorite story about her was the time I ordered Skippy Dies, it's very dark Irish boarding school, it's like a comedy tragedy. It's an amazing book. And she sold my husband a gift card for me for Christmas, cause that's what I get every Christmas. Andrew, if you're listening, I need a gift card. And I took it in and I said, 'Okay, I want to get Skippy Dies.' And she said, 'Well, I'm going to order you the three part version of the book.' And I said, 'I think it's just a novel. I've been reading reviews, it's one book.' And she goes, 'Oh, it's so much cooler when it comes in the case. So I'm going to get you this. And I know how much is on your gift card, you can afford it.' So I love Kathleen, she is always hustling for those authors. She brings in great, great authors for readings and yeah, so if you're in Oakland check out Great Good Place For Books.

Jess: 45:08 Alright, everyone needs to run right out and get The Thank You Project: Cultivating Happiness One Letter of Gratitude at a Time by Nancy Davis Kho. It is going to make such a good gift, that's my plan (sorry, spoiler alert to everyone who's getting presents for me this year) that's what you're getting. So get excited to read this book, it's fantastic. So congratulations on your long path to publication and thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Nancy: 45:35 Thank you guys so much for having me. And everybody out there - keep writing, you're on the path, you're doing it.

Jess: 45:39 And in order to do that, everyone has to keep their butt in the chair and their head in the game. This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

186 #TheJoyofHolidayRomCom Nov 22, 2019

We wanted to talk holiday writing—as in, writing ABOUT holidays, not writing during the holidays. So we went strolling through the holly-bedecked halls of the Internet—because, #dominantculture, holiday books as they appear without a more specific web search means Christmas books and specifically, the 250 page equivalent of a bonbon of a Lifetime Christmas movie. We found Natalie Cox, author of the debut romcom Mutts and Mistletoe. And then we found that Natalie Cox is also Betsy Tobin, author of five other novels, co-owner of a bookshop in North London and just generally appearing to live an authorial dream life.

So of course we invited her on to talk about not just holiday writing, but switching genres, the real meaning of “debut” and whether or not owning a bookstore in London is as much fun as it sounds like it would be. Links from the episode (which was itself as much fun as it sounds like it would be) follow.

As for writing DURING the holidays, if you’re a supporter, you can check out the Top 5 Hacks for Holiday Writing—and if you’re not, why not? Give yourself a little holiday giftie and us a little holiday boost clicking the button below to support the podcast you love, get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice and occasional bonus #MiniSupporter podcasts for just $7 a month.

To support the podcast and help it stay free, subscribe to our weekly #WritersTopFive email.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Betsy:

Three Women, Lisa Taddeo

KJ:

Beside Herself, Elizabeth LaBan

Sarina:

Reindeer Falls, Book 1: The Boss Who Stole Christmas, Jana Aston

Reindeer Falls, Book 2: If You Give a Jerk a Gingerbread, Jana Aston

Reindeer Falls, Book 3: The One Night Stand Before Christmas, Jana Aston

#FaveIndieBookstore

INK@84

Our guest for this episode is Betsy Tobin, aka Natalie Cox. Find more about her at BetsyTobin.co.uk.

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

Jess: 01:00 Now it's recording.

KJ: 01:01 Yay.

Jess: 01:02 Go ahead.

KJ: 01:03 This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone and try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

Jess: 01:07 Alright, let's start over.

KJ: 01:08 Awkward pause and I'm going to rustle some papers.

Jess: 01:11 Okay.

KJ: 01:11 Now, one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is our weekly podcast about writing all the things - fiction, nonfiction, book proposals, essays, pitches, and as we say every week, this is the podcast about getting the work done.

Sarina: 01:40 And I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 30 plus romance novels. And you can find more of me at sarinabowen.com. I am KJ Dell'Antonia, author of a novel coming out next summer. Also of How To Be a Happier Parent, former lead editor of the Motherlode blog at the New York Times and all of the other things that I say every week. And our usual cohost, Jess Lahey, is missing this week. Sarina and I are soloing, but we have a guest. In fact, you could argue that we have three guests. We are going to talk today with Betsy Tobin, who is the author of five books of literary fiction/mystery/I'm not even quite sure how to describe it. Natalie Cox, the author of a new romcom, which is called Mutts and Mistletoe, it's a holiday theme and it is incredibly fun. And the co-owner of the Ink@84 bookstore bar cafe in North London. Conveniently, however, all of these guests are wrapped up into the same person. It's just going to make it much easier to ask questions.

Sarina: 02:52 Of course. So welcome, Betsy.

Betsy: 02:54 Gosh, with an intro like that it's going to be hard not to disappoint. I'll do my best. I'll do my best to be three people in one. Thank you very much. And also 30 books, my goodness. Respect, Sarina. That's amazing, respect.

KJ: 03:08 So I'm going to just own it all for our listeners (as we do every week) which is that originally we thought, you know what would be really fun? It'd be fun to talk to somebody who wrote a book with a holiday theme. Because have you ever written a book with a holiday theme?

Sarina: 03:27 Undeveloped, but barely.

KJ: 03:29 Right, but barely. I've written many an essay with the holiday theme, and many a gift guide with a holiday theme, many a freelance thing, but I've not done a book. So that was our original thought. So we, we sort of went looking around to see who would be interesting and came across Natalie Cox's debut romcom author of Mutts and Mistletoe. And reached out to her only to discover that she is scarcely a debut author at all. So while I hope to get to the use of the holiday and the trope and the fun that is all involved in that, we really want to start with, Betsy, get us to this point. Walk us through if you don't mind.

Betsy: 04:17 How did I start writing?

KJ: 04:19 Yeah, how did you start writing? Let's start there.

Betsy: 04:23 My very first foray into writing was that I took an evening class in journalism and the teacher told me that my style was too literary. And he really sort of slightly took the wind out of my sails. I was in my mid-twenties and I thought this might be a great career. So I went and did an autobiographical essay writing course and the very first exercise that that teacher set was to write a brief story about your life that incorporated a lie and try to make the juncture between the lie and the truth totally seamless. And I thought that was a really fantastic exercise.

KJ: 05:19 That is an interesting exercise. And one I've never heard.

Betsy: 05:23 Yeah. I mean, one that it would never have occurred to me to write fiction. And I didn't really grow up in a family where there were any kind of artists or people working in creative industries. We were kind of quite rational type people. And I thought I was going to have a career in a rational kind of occupation. And I don't think I would've had the courage to write fiction until he set this exercise. And immediately I just found it incredibly liberating, because you could make it all up. And to be honest, that was it, I mean I just never looked back from there. I started writing short fiction. I went and did an MFA. I did work briefly when I first moved to London as a reporter. Eventually I was really rubbish at it. I wasn't thick-skinned enough.

Betsy: 06:13 And I knew it was just a matter of time before I kind of was able to get myself in a position to write fiction. So that's kind of how it happened. I thought initially I would write plays and scripts. But I struggled early on with the pacing of longer format prose fiction. I wrote a lot of short stories and it was a mystery to me how you pace a novel and then suddenly I kind of cracked it in one go where I wrote something and I looked at it and I thought, 'Oh my goodness, this is not a short story. This is a novel.' And I remember, cause I left the first, like eight or nine pages lying on my desk and my husband kind of wandered by and read it and he sort of came to me and he said, 'You know, what is this?' And I said, 'I'm not sure, but I think it's a novel.' And he said, 'I think it's a novel, too.' And that was my first book, Bone House, which did very well. It sold in the U.S., and the UK, and abroad, and was optioned for film.

KJ: 07:13 And that was what, about 2008?

Betsy: 07:16 Gosh, no, it was published in more like 2000.

KJ: 07:23 I was on Amazon and saw probably what is the latest edition.

Betsy: 07:27 That could be, yeah. And I kind of never looked back from there. It did well. I mean it wasn't a bestseller. I've never had what I would say was a huge rating success. I've had critical successes. That book was shortlisted for the Commonwealth Prize, unfortunately up against Zadie Smith, who has since gone on to glittering careers.

Betsy: 07:50 But yeah, it kind of put me on the map as a writer. It got me an agent. I wrote another historical novel after that. Then I wrote a third book was mythic/historical. I kind of turned to myth and I looked at the Norse body of literature.

KJ: 08:11 How much time is it taking?

Betsy: 08:12 So for literary fiction, I would say three years for me. That's definitely what it takes for me to write a novel. And you need about a year where the idea is bubbling along and gestating. And also those novels were very heavily researched, all of them actually. So it took quite a long time to be able to start writing. Although research is something that I use all the way through the writing process. I'm a great fan of using it as a kickstarter for creativity. Anytime somebody comes to me saying they've got writer's block that's probably my single biggest tip is just, you know, plunge yourself into some research on the background of what you're writing. And it's those tiny details that you uncover that will kickstart your creativity and get you going again. So yeah, I eventually wrote five novels.

KJ: 09:08 And the fifth one was a bit of a departure too...

Betsy: 09:11 That was a comic novel. It was the first thing I'd written based on my own kind of personal history a little bit...

KJ: 09:22 So that one is called Things We Couldn't Explain.

Betsy: 09:26 That one's called Things We Couldn't Explain. When I first started writing in the UK, I'd only lived over here for about five years and I didn't feel comfortable writing about contemporary Britain. And equally, I was starting to feel a little bit out of touch with the U.S. So I ended up setting my first novel in the distant past. And I felt like that was a middle ground where my readership and I would be on the same sort of footing. We'd all be kind of equally unfamiliar with the terrain.

KJ: 10:00 I had never thought of that. Although, you know, Sarina sets her books kind of around here and somewhere else that she's lived. And the novel that I've got coming out is set where I grew up and I'm just now doing one for living around here. And I've lived here for about 10 years and I had the same thought. Can I really? You know, I ended up writing about a newcomer to the area because that felt better. People don't really talk about that, how hard it is.

Betsy: 10:27 You have to feel comfortable in the skin of your novel. And then the setting is the skin. And if you're not comfortable sitting in the skin of it, you just won't approach it with confidence. I wrote a lot about identity and displacement in my literary fiction for years. That was kind of a theme that just cropped up over, and over, and over. My fourth novel, Crimson China, was about illegal Chinese migrants living in the UK and I think it is because I was a displaced person. And so I was struggling with that sense of identity and belonging and what happens to your sense of identity when you're taken out of the place of your birth and taken away from your family, and your friends, and the culture that you know. So that was a really big theme for me. And the novel that is set in Ohio was the only thing I'd ever written that was really tapped into my own background. So it was quite close to my heart, actually. So this segues deeply into the holiday issue, because that fifth novel came out in November. And the publisher I was with at the time was very, very big on digital publishing. It was sort of the heyday of digital and digital has come off the boil a bit since then in more recent years. But at the time, she was convinced that there was a lot of money to be made with eBooks. She did a lot of other much, much more commercial fiction and I watched her commercial fiction authors soar right past me in the digital charts that November, December, particularly with the holiday books. While my book kind of languished somewhere in the high tens of thousands in the rankings.

KJ: 12:23 Tell me when this was.

Betsy: 12:25 This would have been probably about five, six years ago.

KJ: 12:32 Right. I think Things We Couldn't Explain was 2014. So you already have sort of a fun commercial read, but it's just not doing what you hoped it would do.

Betsy: 12:47 No, and what I would say is My first impulse for writing a holiday book was envy. I absolutely, you know, had envy of watching all of these holiday books, many of which frankly, I read some, I wasn't very impressed. My daughter and I were big fans of romcom. She's in her kind of mid twenties. We looked at each other and we said, 'We could do this, we could do so much better.' And of course it's not, it's deceptively difficult to get it right. And we were far too overconfident, but that said, we did sit down and we came up with a concept which was the doggy, the canine rom-com concept. And we set out to do it and I wrote it. She helped me with some of the plotting. She's a great sort of reality check for me as a writer. She sees through the holes in everything, really - plot, character, theme. So I use her as a sounding board a lot for my writing.

KJ: 13:52 How old is your daughter?

Betsy: 13:52 She's in her mid twenties now

KJ: 13:57 As is the main character in Mutts and Mistletoe.

Betsy: 14:00 Yes, exactly. So yeah, so we sat down to that and then I wrote about 50 pages of it. And then I got very interested in the idea of opening the bookshop and I shelved that book and really for the next three years did nothing but find and open the shop, which really sucked up kinda 200% of my energy. And when the shop was up and running for I would say two and a half years probably, I was ready to go back to writing. And I went back to this 50 pages that I had written, which really I had just done on a lark. It was nothing more than a lark. And I honestly thought I would probably self-publish it myself, digitally only. And I mentioned it to my agent. I have a wonderful UK agent who I'm very loyal to, I've been with from the beginning. And she said, 'Show it to me.' And I knew she didn't really handle that sort of material normally, but I sent it to her and the agency read it, they all loved it. They were like, 'You must write this.' So I did. I wrote that over the next say year, it probably didn't take me more than about another six to nine months to finish. And that was how Mutts was born. It's done really well, it won romantic comedy of the year here in the UK, and it's sold all over really, all over Europe, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, Russia. I never dreamed that it would be as successful as it's been.

Betsy: 15:57 You know, literary fiction is incredibly laborious. You agonize over every word, every sentence, every phrasing. You know, Mutts and Mistletoe, you're basically trying to get all the elements that you normally tackle as a writer - story, character, setting. But you're basically also just trying to make it really funny. And so it's just such a laugh, you know, I just giggle all the way through writing this stuff. And you look at every page and you think, how can I make this more funny and what would be funnier, and that's really the challenge is kind of just keeping the jokes coming. I don't think you have a joke in every paragraph, but you just have to put your funny hat on and just wear it while you're writing. And it's a joy to be honest, compared to the other form.

KJ: 16:56 But you also have a really strong structure.

Betsy: 17:02 I think you have to absolutely. You have to adhere, with all writing. You have to play by the rules. I mean, there's meta fiction and some writers can bend the rules, but for most readers we need to have the elements. You have to have your ducks in line, you have to have a strong story, you have to have a strong starting proposition with a protagonist that has a problem or a need, and they're gonna they have to have an arc. All the rules adhere, there's no bending of the rules for any of this stuff. You can't take shortcuts. And I know this because I've tried to do things in a more freestyle manner and where it all just didn't work because you didn't follow the rules. And I think even a seasoned writer can fall at that hurdle if you don't pay attention. I think character is totally the single biggest driver of making compelling read. I think characters drive all good stories. And yeah, you have to have a kind of structure, ideally a kind of three act structure, and you have to have a character who learns or grows or changes. I'm a great believer in happy endings. You know, I think audiences want those.

KJ: 18:43 Well, you have those things very cleanly. Many writers have those things but have a lot of noise around them. And in your case, I think you found them very cleanly and it made me wonder if you had a structure that you sort of wrote around or if that just came naturally to you.

Betsy: 19:05 I'm not a great one for planning out all the story in advance, I guess the phrase a pants writer.

Sarina: 19:17 Oh yes, we use that phrase.

Betsy: 19:19 I think I probably am a pants writer. It's not necessarily something I recommend. What I would say is that as much as I'm somebody who doesn't plan everything in advance, I'm utterly meticulous about writing and rewriting. And to be honest, most of my published work, most pages have been edited a hundred times.

KJ: 19:51 Wow.

Sarina: 19:51 Wow.

Betsy: 19:52 Yeah. And I know that sounds obsessive, but that's the sort of writer I am.

KJ: 19:57 No, it sounds great. I'm a noisy writer to use the metaphor or whatever that I was just using, which is there tends to be a lot of stuff around my bones and I need to have less stuff around my bones. And it's kinda reassuring to hear that you're peeling stuff away as opposed to never putting it down, which certainly sounds like a simpler way to do it to me. But unfortunately I can't get there.

Betsy: 20:19 I mean, I think it means that you won't produce work as fast if you're that fastidious. And I think in commercial fiction the industry demands a certain pace of writers. And I think I'm not able to meet that pace. I'm sure my publishers would say that. But that's just me. I'm afraid I just can't not do it the way I want to do it. And I'm not prepared to put a sentence out until it's perfect.

Sarina: 20:47 One thing you said about characters really stuck with me. Because a few minutes ago you were saying you have to really turn on the funny and you know, be funny on every page if you're writing a comedy. But that's so much harder if you don't have a character who can give that to you through all of her flaws and misperceptions of the world, then you just have to spontaneously be funny. Whereas if you have a character who is really set in her ways, then the comedy is easier to find because it's...

Betsy: 21:20 Absolutely, it has to be character driven. All the comedy has to be character driven and situation driven. It's not like you're making jokes leap off the page in and of themselves. You're pulling the comic material out of your characters and what's happening to them. It's like you're birthing it.

Sarina: 21:38 I had a couple of questions for you about this book specifically. So one is, did you ever just get sick of Christmas, you know, when you were editing the hundredth time in August or whatever where you're just like, 'Ugh'?

Betsy: 21:54 I dunno, I mean, I think one of the things - my character is this kind of Scrooge-like character and part of her journey is that she has to learn to love Christmas. So I was able to kind of feed both sides of that debate. It's a book that serves both Christmas lovers and Christmas haters, I think. For that reason. So it was quite amusing to kind of look at the dark side of the holidays. It amused me anyway. To be honest, Christmas became a setting, right? So, yes, it has fantastic comic potential. It has all these iconic tropes and symbols. But really what it was, was a setting and that's how you have to approach it was that you're going to set your novel in a biscuit factory. There's going to be all kinds of comedy that flows from the shop floor. In that way, Christmas was the biscuit factory setting for this. There are writers who make their career out of holiday books. Gosh, more power to them. They're the ones that you should probably be putting that question to are the ones that are writing them year, after year, after year. I'm not writing a holiday book at the moment. I wouldn't rule one out again though, cause I didn't even plumb all the depths of the comic possibilities for Christmas with that first one. I think it's rich terrain for comedy, so I could see me going back to it.

Sarina: 23:34 So then my other question involves just a really practical thing about about writing a holiday book. So my first published book, practically another lifetime ago, is a winter-themed cookbook and it is very winter-themed. The sales for that book (it's 10 years old now) they look like a sign wave on the author portal. They peak right at Christmas and then they bucket in July. And I'm just curious if fiction is expected to do the same thing or not.

Betsy: 24:12 It absolutely does the same thing. But that's the other beauty of writing seasonal stuff is that there's a readily identifiable market for it, which is why publishers love it. And you know, your cookbook might have died a very quick death decades ago or years ago, had you not had that seasonal hook that brings it back and makes it relevant again in the marketplace each year. I'm a great believer in, you know, I don't believe the world owes us a living as writers. And I think we have to write stuff that people want to read. So I'm sort of quite business minded as a writer. And and I think you need to do the publisher's job for them a little bit when you want to sell a prospective title because you have to be able to identify what the market's going to be. So yeah, I think whereas novels, (and I know this because I'm a book seller) the shelf life of a hardback is something like six weeks to three months. And after that they get sent back. And the shelf life of a paperback is 18 months. And after that, you know, unless you're a bestseller, or a prize winner, or an evergreen your book will be gone. And you know, that's just the reality. Whereas seasonal titles, actually, I think there is an upswing year after year for the best ones.

KJ: 25:49 So, wait. Do you put them in a box in the shop and put them aside or do you send them back and then get some new ones?

Betsy: 25:56 We send them back when we get new ones. We're ruthless.

KJ: 26:00 Isn't that funny - you're both the author who's like, 'No, hold on to my book and the bookseller who's like, 'Nope, sorry.'

Betsy: 26:08 It's awful. Authors don't want to know how much gets sent back. I don't know if the retail industry works quite the same way in the U.S. but books are one of the only areas of retail that are full sale or return or at least partial sale or return. You know, that doesn't happen in the clothing industry, right? The stores don't get to send the merchandise back if it doesn't sell. And so yeah, we are ruthless about culling titles that languish on our shelves.

KJ: 26:42 Do you think that's part of why you're going back in for another romcom or do you think it has more to do with sort of where you are in life and what you want to write or is it some combination therein and that it would be hard to tease out?

Betsy: 26:55 I think it has to do with the fact that I have a two book deal with Orion in the UK and I'm contracted to produce another one. Also, I have the pressure of my agents saying to me, 'Gosh, we have these 12 foreign publishers...', So I was under pressure, both because I'm legally obliged to write one for Orion, but in fact Orion gave me the opportunity to segue into more comic literary fiction last year. And it was really my agent who said, 'Gosh, you know, we've got these 12 publishers queued up.' Mutts is only coming out for the first time in all those markets cause it took a year to translate it. So they're the ones that are going to come knocking on our door in January or February saying, 'Oh, what about the next one?'

KJ: 27:52 When was the decision made to write Mutts under a new name?

Betsy: 27:56 Do you mean Natalie?

KJ: 28:00 Yeah.

Betsy: 28:01 Right, sorry. Okay. At the point of sale for publication, the agents, I said to them, 'What about my brand?' And they said, 'We'll sell you as a debut.' And that is what goes on in the industry. I don't know that it's the best thing. I don't know necessarily that it did me any favors as an author, but publishers of course are always looking for debuts. There's an absolute mystique in the industry about making the next big discovery. So it's easier for agents to sell debuts. So I was sold as a debut romcom writer with the caveat that it was a pseudonym for someone who had written in another genre. So publishers at the point of bidding were told that I was an existing writer.

Betsy: 29:02 They weren't told who I was, but I was sold as a debut. Does that make sense?

KJ: 29:10 Yes, it does. It's a crazy system.

Betsy: 29:12 It is crazy indeed. So now I have fiendish social media cause I have social media under Betsy, and I have social media under Natalie, and I also do all the social media for the bookshop. So I'm constantly toggling between Facebook and Instagram and Twitter on all three accounts and kind of posting the wrong thing from the wrong account and getting into trouble. So that's what ended up with, I don't know how desirable it is for me as a writer. One thing I would say is that this has a different title in Britain than it does in the U.S. and that is something I will never repeat again because that was even more of a nightmare publishing two...

KJ: 29:56 What is it called in Britain?

Betsy: 29:57 So in Britain, we have a really famous dog charity rescue charity, a nationwide adoption center called The Dog's Trust. And their motto is 'Dogs are for life, not just for Christmas.' It's very, very famous. It's a famous enough charity that pretty much everyone knows that line dogs life. And so my editor from day one was determined to call it Not Just for Christmas. And of course it's not a title that works at all well in the U.S., it doesn't play in America. It's not a title I wanted particularly, but it certainly works very well in this territory. I I was worried about it elsewhere and I was worried about the idea of books going out with different titles. The same book going out and it was a bit of a problem, I had kind of angry readers saying...

KJ: 30:56 I have as a reader, bought the same book twice.

Betsy: 30:58 Yes, exactly.

KJ: 31:00 Because I liked it so much one of the times and I thought, 'Oh, it's a different one.'

Betsy: 31:05 Yeah. I had irate readers kind of emailing me saying 'Who would do that?' And it didn't help that Amazon in the U.S. had both editions up. Anyway, it was a nightmare. So that's how I ended up as Natalie Cox. Gosh, Natalie was the name of my old dog, so that was a nod towards her. And Natalie's three syllables and I knew I needed a really short three letter surname for the cover. So it was either Dicks or Cox. Fox was taken. I actually did try Fox. My publisher said there was some other writer publishing under that name. So yeah, that's how I ended up with Natalie Cox.

KJ: 32:02 And the next one will be Natalie Cox.

Betsy: 32:03 Yes, this is a romcom under Natalie Cox, absolutely. And it also involves a very large dog. It's a similar kind of book, similar voice, similar tone. It's about a woman who's fed up with her life, she's got a list of problems, and she just wants to run away from it all until someone steals her identity. And then she wants her life back.

KJ: 32:28 Oh, that's good.

Betsy: 32:34 So I'm busily beavering away at that at the moment. I'm hoping to deliver that in the spring. So we will see. I do like dogs, I'm a big dog fan. I definitely discovered that almost like Christmas, there's almost an identifiable readership of people who want books about dogs.

KJ: 32:54 There absolutely is.

Sarina: 32:55 Yes, that is true. In fact, in 2017, one of my publishers said, 'These are the pitches we want next from you. It has to be dogs, or Alaska, or cowboys.'

Betsy: 33:08 Oh my God, that is hilarious. All three of those are great!

KJ: 33:13 An Alaskan cowboy dog would just walk us straight.

Betsy: 33:19 Oh, I would love to write any of those, that sounds fantastic. So did you write that? Did you write that book back then?

Sarina: 33:37 No, I didn't because I just didn't want to. And it was also said to me like this, 'This is what Walmart wants.'

Betsy: 33:47 Oh wow. Okay.

Sarina: 33:48 And I thought, you know what...I didn't want to plan my life that way.

Betsy: 33:54 No, and I agree. While I did make that comment about not writing in a vacuum and understanding what the market is for your books, I don't think you should let the tail wag the dog.

KJ: 34:06 Well, there's a difference.

Sarina: 34:07 Yeah. There's a difference between having an eye on it and letting it run your life. Also, you mentioned digital and so that made me curious. And as a bookseller, I bet this is something you keep an eye on, but is the digital sales ratio of your romcom higher than your literary fiction?

Betsy: 34:29 Well, I haven't looked at the figures, but broadly I would say yes. I mean, the thing about digital is we have pretty good understanding of what digital reading habits are now. And they do tend to be in certain genres - so mystery and commercial women's fiction, particularly romance, romance and mystery I'd say are probably two of the biggest consumers of digital. And you know, these are people who are super fans, they're veracious readers, they're constantly looking for new sources of supply, they need to source their books cheaply because they're reading so much. So gosh, what was the question?

Sarina: 35:18 I was just curious. So I'm very familiar with this concept because I'm about 98% digital. Or actually, if I put audio in there it wouldn't be 98 it would be more like 85. But also where is the line? So I have friends who do sort of book club women's fiction who are running at about 50/50 digital. And I was just sort of thinking that your book also looks like that midpoint between something that would be strictly a romance and a commercial women's fiction.

Betsy: 35:55 Well, what I would say in the U.S. for the Natalie Cox book, is that they have not pushed it digitally at all and they've priced it very, very high because I think they really want to shift paper copies. And so I've looked at my digital numbers and they're incredibly low. I would say below 5%. I mean I think that this title has legs digitally and I assume that they will eventually tap into that and market it digitally and price it to sell digitally. But at the moment they're still not doing that. In fact, I can't see from here what the digital prices in the U.S. are.

KJ: 36:38 It's $14.99 I think. It's quite high. And I just want to say it was super fun, I had a totally fun evening read. And I honestly wouldn't have done it if I did not also want to read it.

Betsy: 37:31 You totally could've winged it.

KJ: 37:44 But I wanted to read it.

Betsy: 37:46 Thank you. You will be my one digital sale in America this week. Next week, when I look at my sales figures it will literally say two copies sold and you'll be one of them. I think Putnam really wants...they've got a lot of physical copies out there and they want people to buy those. And that's why it's been priced the way it has. I assume that in years to come that part of their marketing plan...

KJ: 38:12 You know the worst part? I could've gotten the British edition for $3.99.

Betsy: 38:18 No, you're not allowed to.

KJ: 38:20 I could, I could do it right now. I have buy with one click.

Betsy: 38:25 But I thought they weren't allowed to. So there's copyright constraints that prevent you from buying digitally.

KJ: 38:34 It's priced in pounds.

Betsy: 38:37 Kindle should throw it out.

KJ: 38:39 Oh, you know what? I'm on the UK site cause I went to it from your website.

Sarina: 38:46 So when your new book comes out and there's doing the still the whole paper push maybe you can get them to do a BookBub deal.

Betsy: 38:58 Yeah, absolutely. I'm certainly about to press my UK publisher on a BookBub deal because unlike the U.S. they aren't bringing out another edition. They're not pushing it into shops this Christmas. And it absolutely should be. They should be marketing it more aggressively in the UK. The U.S., I've just looked, they've got like 40,000 paper copies out in shops.

KJ: 39:21 And the kind of amazing thing is that because I knew we were interviewing you and I've been in one airport bookstores and one non-airport bookstore looking at the holiday. And to be honest, I didn't see it. It wasn't on the holiday.

Betsy: 39:35 Well that is disappointing. This is the ultra mass market addition though, so those are only certain types of outlets I assume in the U.S.

KJ: 39:44 I was primarily in airport bookstores. I was in one indie bookstore, the one owned by Ann Patchett, actually. Speaking of author bookstores.

Betsy: 39:53 She came and signed copies at my shop.

KJ: 39:56 Well, darn it, she needs to be stocking your book.

Betsy: 39:59 So last year, with the trade paperback, that was a book that definitely was in Barnes and Noble and some of the independents. This year, with this new mass market edition I don't know which outlets stock these kinds of books that are priced at this very low price point, $7.99, I was very impressed with that. I assume it's more supermarkets, Walmart, that sort of thing.

KJ: 40:30 The airports had a few, but they were big name.

Sarina: 40:34 Also, American airport bookstores hate romance. There's nothing with even a whiff of romance in airport bookstores.

Betsy: 40:42 And to be honest, I would not have expected to be in the U.S. airport, actually. That's sad, but I can live with that. There are 40,000 copies out there but they're not in airports, but that's okay. I'm okay with that. Maybe my people aren't travelers, you know, maybe they're not travelers.

KJ: 41:12 I have one last question, but it might be a long one. I'm sure it's one that many of our listeners are wondering, 'Wait, wait, do I want to run a bookstore?' Sarina and I are always reminding each other that we don't, in fact, want to run a bookstore. So tell us.

Betsy: 41:30 Well, what do I say about running a bookstore? It's a little bit like owning a dog. I always liked owning a dog to having a perpetual toddler, you know, one that never grows up. With that level of commitment, and responsibility, and supervision. And I think running a small business, a customer facing business, it's open seven days a week, trading 70 hours. Yeah, it's the same sort of thing. It's like having a perpetual toddler. It's a lot of work. It's very full on, I have a business partner. We don't staff the shop, but we run it, we manage it ourselves from our laptops, mostly remotely. Although I certainly am in the shop. If I'm in London, I'm in the shop most days at least for a couple of hours to sort of oversee things. And it's terrific fun. I can't undersell that.

KJ: 42:19 That's not what we wanted to hear.

Betsy: 42:20 I mean it is absolutely incredibly fun, but like any small businesses, it is a lot of hard work. And we are very much a DIY business. We do everything ourself. We do all our bookkeeping, we do all our social media, we do our website, we curate by hand. You know, we're very hands-on for two people who aren't physically there all the time. But I travel a fair amount and so I can run the business from my laptop pretty much wherever I go. And it works and our customers love it and they're incredibly grateful that we're there. So they're happy to support us and are happy to pay full cover price. We never discount anything, we're ruthless about that. I just turned away a customer this afternoon for a book by someone I really, really dislike. When he asked why we didn't have it I said, 'Because we didn't buy it in, because we hate him.' And I said, 'I can order it for you, but can I just sell you something else?' It's done. So I talked him into buying something else. I said, 'His ex wife's book is out next year and it's much worth the wait for that.' He's an odious you would think. That's what you get to do when you run a bookshop. That's a terrible thing, I shouldn't be saying this.

Sarina: 43:40 It's hilarious.

KJ: 43:41 It's hilarious. Yes, we're all over this bookshop.

Betsy: 43:46 In fairness, that customer did look down and he spotted a slim volume by Niche and he said, 'Well, if that's your standard then you shouldn't be stocking this either.' Absolutely, we get to choose. It's really fun owning the shop and it's incredibly gratifying and it's lovely not to be just facing a keyboard all day.

KJ: 44:14 And now you make it sound fun. That's terrible, we didn't need that. Well, this is a great segue into what we've been reading. So have you read anything good lately?

Betsy: 44:25 So I have just read this book and I'm going to forget the author. U.S. book called Three Women by Lisa Taddeo. So this book, my 28-year-old son, his girlfriend loaned me her copy. It was a bit of a sleeper success for us in the bookshop. It was published here by Bloomsbury, I'm not sure who published it in the U.S. and we didn't really clock it initially on our radar in the shop until it started to kind of sell. I had all these kind of mid-30-year-old women coming in and sort of slyly purchasing it. It's about women and sex and it's a stunning piece of really in depth report where she surveyed hundreds of women and then chose three and followed them for literally years and moved to their home towns and told the story of their sexual history. And when my son's girlfriend loaned it to me, she said, 'Don't read it on the Metro.' And it's very, very explicit. It's incredibly gripping. And the stories are all true and it's beautifully written. It's written like a thriller. She cuts between the three stories very cleverly. And I thought it was a remarkable piece of work, actually. So yeah, definitely recommend it. And a lot of food for thought in terms of sexuality.

KJ: 46:17 How about you, Sarina?

Sarina: 46:18 Well, I wanted to keep with the holiday theme and I am acquainted with this author named Jana Aston, who writes what is very much an of-the-moment romance in the contemporary space right now. She writes kind of like billionaires and young women and it's very snappy and also kind of romcom, but also probably quite dirty. She came out with three holiday novellas right now and they are brilliantly packaged. And I'm reading the first one right now. It's called The Boss Who Stole Christmas.

Betsy: 46:57 And I bet they're racing up the Kindle charts.

Sarina: 47:00 Yes. And I have to tell you the title of the second book because it makes my heart pitter-patter. It is so funny. It is called If You Give a Jerk a Gingerbread. Isn't that impressive? And so I'm having a great time reading book one and I can't wait to get to the jerk with the gingerbread.

KJ: 47:20 Well, as I've said multiple times, did really enjoy Mutts and Mistletoe. Super fun. Although you need to look for the paperback, not necessarily the Kindle edition. They probably won't let me loan it to you. I also read Beside Herself by Elizabeth Labon. Elizabeth Labon is a Philly author who writes really, really place-centric commercial women's fiction. And I love the cover of this book. It's a coffee cup, like sort of spilling as it topples over. And it's the story of a woman whose husband has an affair and who still loves him but wants to get back at him. And it's a happy ending, romcom, very much fun read, especially if you're a Philly person. And yeah, I enjoyed it. I've enjoyed her previous books. So yeah, it was fun. I think it's a good time of year. You know, I have a stack right now that is a combination of sort of more serious stuff and really, really light stuff because this is just such a rich time of year for book shopping.

Betsy: 48:25 Absolutely. And I think over the Christmas holidays, frankly, everybody wants the literary equivalent of a malteser way. I mean, you know, really, that feeds aside for all of us. And you know, there's room for all those books on our shelves.

KJ: 48:44 Well, thank you so much for coming. This has been incredibly fun. We thought it would be fun when it was just going to be holiday, but when it turned into let's talk about owning a bookstore and writing multiple books in multiple genres. We got super excited, so thank you.

Betsy: 49:00 Fantastic. Thank you so much for having me.

Sarina: 49:02 And until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess: 49:14 This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 185: #AudioExplosion Nov 15, 2019

Here’s one way to learn how to write books that work in audio: narrate over 700 of them, like our guest this week, Tanya Eby. If that sounds a little daunting, listen in instead for the condensed version.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, we sent out our first supporter-only #MiniSupporter episode this week: #Prewriting. Those will be short and sporadic bursts of advice and inspiration from one of us, and thanks to the magic of Substack, supporters of #AmWriting will see those drop into a special feed in their podcast apps whenever we’ve got one ready. We’d love to add you to that list if you’re not already on it. Support the podcast you love, get bonus #MiniSupporter episodes AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess: Olive Kitteredge, Elizabeth Strout

KJ: Ninth House, Leigh Bardugo

Sarina: Never Have I Ever, Joshilyn Jackson

Tanya: The Chestnut Man, Soren Sveistrup

#FaveIndieBookstore

Schuler Books in Grand Rapids, Michigan

Our guest for this episode is Tanya Eby, the Audie Award Winning narrator of over 700 audio books. Her production company, Blunder Woman Productions, is currently nominated for two Society Arts Awards. Find more about Tanya here.

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

KJ: 00:01 Hey writers, it's KJ and if you're listening in real time, there's a pretty good chance you might be in the middle of NaNoWriMo right now, or giving up on it, or flailing around and wishing you'd never started it. If your National Novel Writing Month isn't exactly passing by in a haze of inspired typing, it's well worth taking a break from churning outwards to make sure your book has a strong enough spine to support the story you want to tell. Our sponsor, Author Accelerator has a tool that might help - the Inside Outline. And I have a NaNoWriMo secret. It's not all about the word count. 30,000 words are better than 50,000 if you're going to have to throw half of those 50,000 words away. So, if you're feeling the least bit stuck, try applying the Inside Outline to what you've already written and to the scenes to come. It might be exactly what you need to get over the finish line. #AmWriting listeners have exclusive access to a free download that describes what the outline is, why it works, and how to do it free. You can find it at authoraccelerator.com/amwriting. Is it recording?

Jess: 01:12 Now it's recording.

KJ: 01:14 Yay.

Jess: 01:14 Go ahead.

KJ: 01:15 This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.

Jess: 01:19 Alright, let's start over.

KJ: 01:21 Awkward pause, I'm going to rustle some papers.

Jess: 01:24 Okay.

KJ: 01:24 Now one, two, three.

KJ: 01:32 Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting, the weekly podcast about writing all the things - fiction, nonfiction, every genre, every possible permutation of writing that we can possibly come up with, (especially if it begins with a P, which seems to be where I'm going today) pitches, proposals. See I told you, and as you know, this is, above all else, the podcast about sitting down and getting your work done.

Jess: 02:03 I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of the Gift of Failure and you can find my work at the New York Times and The Atlantic. And I just finished the first draft of my forthcoming book in 2021 The Addiction Inoculation about preventing substance abuse in kids.

Sarina: 02:17 And this is Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of more than 30 romance novels, with a new one coming out in just a few days, called Man Cuffed, and more about that in a minute.

KJ: 02:29 And I am KJ Dell'Antonia, author of How To Be a Happier Parent as well as a novel coming out next year, The Chicken Sisters, former editor of the Motherlode blog at the New York Times, and feeling a bit like a slacker with this just same book, you know, coming out all the time. I'm working, I'm going to have another one soon, I hope.

Jess: 02:55 Well, just wait. I mean, my book's not coming out until 2021 so just imagine how sick of it we're going to be by the time it finally comes out, it feels like it's forever away.

KJ: 03:03 Yes, we have a guest today. Sarina, I'm going to tell you, 'Take it away.'

Sarina: 03:11 We do have a guest today and it's a friend of mine. We're welcoming to the show, Tanya Eby, who is the Audie award-winning narrator of over 700 audio books. Wow. I mean, come on, 700. Her production company, which is adorably titled Blunder Woman Productions, is currently nominated for two society arts awards, as well. And Tanya is here today to talk mostly about the booming market for audio books. But I just have to slide in there and say that Tanya and I also have a USA today bestselling series of romance novels together. They are The Man Hands books. Which everything Tanya does is funny, so I'm going to tell you the titles are: Man Hands, Man Card, Boy Toy, and our new one, Man Cuffed. Welcome, Tanya.

Tanya: 04:06 Hey, that was such a cool introduction. Thank you.

Sarina: 04:10 You are welcome.

Jess: 04:12 The series you two write together that Sarina was just talking about just makes me laugh out loud. I love that series. And it's also really fun to read Sarina with various authors. I love reading Sarina in all the different forms and I'm so excited to hear about audio books. Mainly because number one, I'm a huge, huge audio book fan since I had a head injury a couple of years ago. For me, I have limited on the page time, and so audio books are my preferred way to sort of get at the fun reading. But also, I was on one of my audio book apps, scrolling through trying to make sure I knew which books you've narrated that I've read, and it's like page one of 62 and I'm scrolling through. So I'm glad Sarina said how many because that was going to be a long morning for me scrolling through every single thing you've ever done.

Tanya: 05:08 Yeah, I've been doing this for a while now.

Jess: 05:11 Well I have a ton of questions, but I know that Sarina has some stuff that she wants to talk to you about first. So I'm going to defer to Sarina.

Sarina: 05:19 I was pulling together my thoughts about this and I would like to say that Tanya has been basically a full-time audio book narrator and producer since before it was cool.

Jess: 05:33 Which means officially it's cool now. It's very, very cool.

Sarina: 05:38 Because some of these numbers I was just finding about the growth of the audio book industry are pretty crazy. So the industry has had, according to the Audio Publisher's Association, which I believe Tanya has just finished a stint on the board. They say they've had seven years of double digit growth. With the last date available 2018 of course, cause we're not quite done with this one. And that in 2018, according to the APA, it was almost a billion dollar industry, which of course means that it was over a billion dollar industry because professional associations that cover publishing can never actually capture all that revenue because there's too many independent publishers. And also because the only people who really know how many audio downloads there are, are Amazon and they're not saying.

Tanya: 06:36 Right, but it's a lot.

Sarina: 06:37 It's a lot. And 2018 revenue was up 24 and a half percent over 2017, which is a big fat growth number. And I'm, you know, a cynical economist so that when people tell me that something is growing really fast, I kind of sometimes discount that because if a thing is growing really fast, but it's a really tiny thing, then you know, that's interesting, but it's not life changing. And in publishing we love to grasp onto whatever is growing because, you know, it's a tricky industry and wild growth is not something people think about when they think about publishing. But now after seven years of double digit growth, I have to say that it really seems like they're not fooling around this time. And so, I'm a believer now. And just to prove it to myself, I looked up my own audio revenue on my early 2018 release because I thought that that was like the best one to look at to figure out what it was. And 12% of all the copies of my early 2018 release were sold in audio, which means that the revenue proportion is even greater than 12%, because I'm earning slightly more on every audio copy than other formats, including e-book and paperback. So, wow. I'm a believer.

Jess: 08:12 I'm so jealous of you being able to look up that information. I mean, when it comes (as you mentioned before) Amazon's not telling and it's almost impossible for me to know. But what's really nice for me when I go to a book signing, go to a book event, more and more frequently people are asking me if the book's available on audio or I listened to you in my car. And I want to talk about that in a little bit - to the sort of the relationship that you build with the voice that you listen to in your car. But more and more people are saying to me, 'Oh, I listened to it on audio and I love that format.' And that wasn't something, even five years ago, that wasn't something I was hearing.

Tanya: 08:51 Well, I think that the industry really changed and exploded when we had the technology to support it. So when I started, I was still on tape. This is how long ago I was recording and then it moved to mostly CDs, but then we've had this huge, you know explosion since smartphones and then Audible coming in and now people can access it everywhere, where you couldn't before. And people have discovered how much fun it is to listen. For me, it's like a movie in my mind and it's been constantly growing, which has been great.

Jess: 09:31 From the teacher perspective, there have been a bunch of articles in the past couple of years on you know, is listening to audio books "reading", does it count, you know, that kind of thing. And there've been a couple of articles saying, 'Absolutely, yes, it does count.'

Speaker 4: 09:48 We do process the the words we read slightly differently, but I know from a teaching perspective, if I have to teach a text, especially a text that's really dense, I always listen and read because I get different things from a text when I listen than when I read, and it's a very important part of my preparation. So I think that's added to it.

Tanya: 10:07 Yeah. It actually lights up the same parts of the brain as reading does, which is really cool. And I actually got started with audio books - my first experience - I was trying to understand Faulkner's As I Lay Dying and I was like 16 years old and I couldn't make sense of it. So I started to read it out loud and suddenly like the whole book just came to life for me. So, yeah I agree.

Jess: 10:33 There's this really cool passage I used to teach in seventh grade, I would teach Great Expectations. There are a few passages that I had to read out loud because the way Dickens structured the sentences lent itself to the same - there's a scene where they're racing through the marshes and the sentence just bounds, and bounds, and bounds forward the same way that Joe is bounding, and bounding, and bounding through the marsh. And so it's a way of showing students that you can use language not only to appeal to the eye and to sort of sound good in your head, but to sound good from an oral perspective as well. So that's one of my favorite parts about reading out loud and who doesn't want to be read to?

Tanya: 11:15 It's so nice, isn't it? It's really comforting, I love it.

Jess: 11:19 So can we talk nuts and bolts?

Tanya: 11:21 What do you want to know?

Jess: 11:23 I want to know practical stuff. Like how do you get hired? And Sarina talks about this every once in a while, but how does an author (and often it has nothing to do with the author unless you're at Lucky like Sarina and you're so good at the self pub thing) but how do you get hired for a book in the first place?

Tanya: 11:40 So I think the most important thing to realize about narrators is that we are all freelancers. So we may work through a publisher, but we don't work with just that publisher. And you can basically contact us and most of us can produce audio for you or we can work with whichever publishing house you want to work with. So how I get hired is publishing houses sometimes will cast and I've been in the business long enough that they know me and they simply send me an email and say, 'Are you interested?' Or I might audition or I have authors who contact me or I might audition for pieces that authors post online through ACX or find a way or some of those services. So there's multiple ways to reach a narrator.

Jess: 12:31 You hear about like actors going after certain roles, have there been certain audio books that you've really gone after because you wanted to be a part of them?

Tanya: 12:38 Yes. And it did not work. And I'm still intensely bitter. No, I'm not. But this was before I started my publishing company and I realized that I might've seemed a little creepy because I was just a narrator saying like, 'Hire me.' And that made people uncomfortable. But now that I have a production company, they take me a little more seriously and I have been able to get some really great roles that way.

Jess: 13:07 Cool. So in terms of - and these are just the things that I tend to be fascinated by - so when I read my own audio book for my for my book for Harper Collins, I got a flat fee as the author. So they said, here's the amount of money you get. Go away, go read the book. But I also understand from Sarina that audio narrators can get paid in terms of a finished, by the minute....

Tanya: 13:35 We are paid what's called per finished hour. So if your book is 10 hours long, we are paid 10 hours worth of work. We call it per finished hour because each hour to record takes about two hours or more for us to produce it. So doing it by the per finished hour simplifies things. And I think there are A list actors who their pay scale is much different, but for most of us it's a per finished hour.

Jess: 14:07 There's so many things that go into why it takes so much longer in the finished product.

Tanya: 14:14 And I think they don't realize that for every hour of audio book you listen to, it's taken about 10 hours to produce and there can be a team of like 20 people working on that audio book. So we've got directors, we have engineers, proofers, people who listen for mistakes or tummy grumbles or things like that, you have people doing research, you have the narrator who reads the book first and does a bunch of research and yeah, I mean it's huge what goes into it.

Jess: 14:46 What's your favorite kind of book to narrate? Do you have a favorite kind?

Tanya: 14:51 Well, I mean, I love stories. We all love stories that have great characters. I've been enjoying narrating nonfiction lately, but I like heartwarming stories. But then I also have this dark side where there are times where I love true crime and I love those gritty mysteries. So for me, one of the fun parts about being a narrator is I get to narrate across genres. So once I'd been doing romances for a while, I might get a nonfiction title thrown in and it keeps me really interested.

Jess: 15:24 One of the things that I've sort of been really curious about (mainly because it's something that I don't know that I could do) is there are those times that I'm listening to a book and I realize that it is a woman reading the book to me. and yet I get lost in the male voice that that narrator is able to create for me. And I forget that I'm listening to just one narrator. And I'm sort of curious as to how you arrive on that and just sort of what the tricks are about doing that. Cause I don't really get it. It's almost like one of those TV or movie illusions that it's best not to think about. But I'm really curious about how you do that.

Tanya: 16:02 Yeah, I mean that's the magic of audio books - that you can have one performer create all these characters. What helps is if we have good writing to start with. So that gives us some clues as to what the characters are. If you have like an evil character, is he gritty? Is he is he smarmy? Is he manipulative, cocky? Like those kinds of adjectives help us choose voices. And for me I've been listening to lots and lots of people talk and I kind of like quietly mimic them to capture voices. And what's interesting is that not all males have this deep masculine voice. Some of them have higher pitched voice and the same goes with women, we're not all Sopranos. So kind of making choices that suit the character, as if you were dressing the character, what would this character wear is kind of how I get into it.

Jess: 16:57 That's so cool. One of the things Sarina and I were talking about recently is often Sarina's books, for example, Good Boy that you read along with (obviously you weren't in the same room together) but with Teddy Hamilton in the male character. The thing though in a lot of books is that even from the female perspective, you have to speak in the male voice. And so do you ever get to hear, for example, Teddy Hamilton's performance before you do yours or is it just sort of put together at the end?

Tanya: 17:27 When you're doing a dual read like that (when you have two people narrating) with each one doing a point of view chapter. What I do is I'll talk to my co-narrator and we post files that we'll listen to (of each other) where we make character choices and so I can listen to it and kind of get the groove. Now Teddy, I know well enough and I've listened to him a lot and spent time with him, that it was easy to fall into that groove of how he narrates.

Jess: 18:03 He's one of my favorites, he's one of my very favorite narrators.

Tanya: 18:07 And he's an awesome person, too, which is always great.

Jess: 18:11 That is so cool. Sarina, did you want to jump in? I feel like taking over this interview.

Sarina: 18:18 Oh no, it's all good. I thought it would be fun to ask Tanya though - Like, which words in a manuscript do you not like?

Tanya: 18:27 So...clasping - like, she clasped her breasts or something - is really hard. Sexting, texting - those words destroy me.

Jess: 18:41 I told Sarina at one point I had them, I used to work as a political speech writer and I wrote an inaugural speech for someone. And at a certain point we just had to ditch an entire sentence no matter, he loved the sentence, I love the sentence, but it was not coming out of his mouth the right way. It was not going to happen.

Tanya: 19:03 Yeah. Sometimes it doesn't. Or you get a character. The famous one is Jack, we love that name. But whenever you have a character, Jack asked, you have to be careful. And fantasy books, character names are difficult because they'll create languages and people think they know how it's pronounced. And then a narrator will make a choice and they make the wrong choice, it's tricky.

Sarina: 19:29 So what happens - what happens if you're reading a fantasy novel and they gave you the pronunciation for like everything except this one word and you read that one word. What happens?

Tanya: 19:38 So two things. Either they like it so much, they're okay with it. Or you have to record 156 fixes of every time you said that name. I've had it go both ways. And I had one where I said Viola and it was Viola. Because I guess Viola is more popular in the South.

Jess: 20:02 And there's nothing that pulls me out of a book faster. I was listening to an audio book a while ago and they mispronounced a really well-known street name in Los Angeles and that was it. Like it was over for me.

Tanya: 20:17 Proofers should catch that, but they don't. You know, it's a team and we don't always. But something for writers to know - if one of your pieces are being produced, you can supply some of those pronunciations to your audio book team and they will love you for it.

Jess: 20:36 Oh, that's a great tip.

Tanya: 20:38 Yeah. Just knowing like if you have some names that are super important, let your narrator know.

Jess: 20:43 That's especially important, I guess for us nonfiction writers that were there tend to be researchers' names Dr. So and so in there. That would be really helpful. That never (well I guess because I read my own book) but that never would've occurred to me. And you're right, that would be really, really helpful. It's a great tip.

Sarina: 20:59 Can I just say that I have not always been good at this? At giving people the information they need. Except when we were going to record Him, which is I believe my bestselling audio book ever, I did manage to tell the narrating team that Jamie was from San Rafael, California. And I said, 'You don't say Rafael, even though it's spelled that way.' People from Northern California say San Rafael. And I got notes from grateful listeners like 'Thank you for saying San Rafael.' And I'm like, 'Okay. I guess that one thing that I thought to do.' So, the other thing that we should mention, so some of our listeners are authors with published books who may not have an audio edition. So you know, there must be some people listening to think how do I get one?

Tanya: 22:02 Well the first thing they need to know is to look at their contract (if they have one) and see if they own the audio rights. Or if they're self-published, they do own the audio rights. And that can make you go into two different paths. So there's lots of paths to get your book into audio. You can request that your publisher consider publishing in audio and if they don't, if you can have the rights back and you can do it yourself. If you own the rights, you can do it yourself or you can hire a company like my production company, Blunder Woman Productions, and we can produce it for you. So there are lots of different avenues, but the most important question is do you have the rights?

Sarina: 22:45 Right. And I actually I had a contract with a publisher that I no longer have a contract with, let's say in 2014. And one of the things that my agent did with that contract is that this particular publisher keeps rights like that. They keep audio and they were keeping translation as well, and she couldn't talk them out of keeping those things. But she did put in that if they hadn't exercised the audio rights by a certain date that we got it back.

Tanya: 23:22 Right. And that's so great, especially because as audio books have become more popular, more and more publishers are holding onto those rights. So having that clause is extremely helpful. You can also put in a clause that you have some input with the narrator. Sometimes publishers will cast it for you. But if you have that information in there, they can give you choices to choose from. And that's really helpful sometimes for writers.

Sarina: 23:49 Yeah. In fact, I have a different contract with Penguin (who always keeps their audio rights), but in this case I was perfectly happy about it because they publish those audio books immediately with the publication of the other books. So here's where it also gets weird if you're an author and you can't quite figure out what's happening. So let's just say you have books with Penguin or Harper or Simon and Schuster. Sometimes your publisher will make them themselves. Like, you know, the book will be from Harper Audio, but sometimes your publisher will sell off those rights to an audio book publisher, such as Blackstone, Tenter, Brilliance. You know, there's a bunch like this. And then those people will make the book. And in this case, I had no rights at all (except of course to earn money when someone else did this work for me) but I was still asked by Blackstone, my opinion about who I wanted to narrate and they sent me audition tapes and it was just terrific.

Tanya: 25:01 So nice. So sometimes they will sell those rights to other companies. Sometimes those other companies will just produce it for them. Because not every publishing house can produce as many books as they want to.

Jess: 25:16 What's also been cool is to see some of the audio books from before audio really became as popular as it is now and the quality has changed, that a lot of a lot of stuff is being reproduced. And it's really, really nice because it can be updated and you can stay on top of it and they can look uniform. And Stephen King's work comes to mind. They've reengineered a whole bunch of his books and it's been great.

Tanya: 25:44 Well, and it's also interesting because in the last 10 years there's been a shift. Audio book started as reading for the blind. And narrators were instructed just to read the words with no emotion, no characterization, but there's been a real shift now, where those books are being performed. So like you had mentioned earlier with vocal characterization, we do accents, so we really act it out now. So that can also be a huge difference from a book that was released 10 years ago.

Sarina: 26:11 I'll bet. And another new thing is the popularity of certain narrators. And this is another technology thing. So now that we all carry our audio books around in our pockets and we buy them or rent them from various audio book platforms, you can often search by narrator. So if you have a favorite and you click on their name all of their stuff comes up, which makes the whole recommending machine hum in a different direction than I'm sure it used to in the olden days.

Tanya: 26:51 Right. If you're casting your own audio book, it's a good way to find narrators by listening to those little clips and seeing who do you click with? Because I also want to mention something really important for writers - that the audio book is never going to sound the way that it sounds in your head. So it's an interpretation by an actor and that's really important to remember that, that there's many ways to perform a piece and sometimes you gotta let go a little bit.

Sarina: 27:18 Yeah. My way of doing this is, I have to say, I never listen to my own books in audio and people will say, 'Oh, this one is so wonderful.' And I'm like, 'That's amazing. I'm glad. I'm so happy to hear it.' But I will never have actually heard it. I've only listened to a couple. The fact that the cadence isn't the same in my head as I heard it is just, I can't deal.

Jess: 27:44 You guys want to hear something horrifying. I was at a talk recently and someone came to the book signing and said, 'Oh, I was in a real hurry to get this listened to before, I wanted to get it all done before you came. So I listened to you. I started at 1.5 times, then I went up to 1.7, and then I listened to the very end at 2.0 and I tried it just to sort of see what that was like. I don't know how people do that, it scrambles my brain. It's the worst, but some people swear by it. They're like, 'That's how I get through books quickly is to go at one and a half speed.'

Tanya: 28:18 When narrators hear that, it's like we've been drained by a vampire, like all the blood leaves our face. And we're like, 'That's great.'

Jess: 28:30 There is something really (and I said this at the beginning that I wanted to come back to it) There's something really magical about having spent so much time in someone else's existence. You know, like I've been in someone's car, or they'd be listening to me on the way to work, and they're like, 'I feel like I know you.' And that is the same way I feel about the audio narrators that I listen to. Like Davina Porter, you know, I've listened to her voice so much that she's familiar to me and soothing and it's a reason that I relisten to those books when I'm feeling anxious because I have a relationship with that voice and I feel really privileged to be in that place.

Tanya: 29:14 What's interesting about that, to hear you say that is that many of us when we sit down in the booth, like right now I'm in my basement in my booth, it's dark and I have to sit down and remember that I'm going to tell you a story and I want to pull you in and I want to have a conversation with you. So it's like, it's really intimate. And that's good to hear that that works for you.

Jess: 29:36 Yeah, my producer at Vermont Public Radio taught me the coolest trick, and this of course doesn't work when you're totally by yourself, I suppose. But one of the things that she taught me to do is to catch her eye at moments where I felt it was really, really important to connect. And there's something about just looking at another human being when I'm in the booth that really does something to your voice. And especially right at the end of something and that's when I always try to catch her eye and sort of emote in a particular way. That was a really helpful trick she gave me and it helps me connect with whoever out there is listening. It's really a fun, amazing thing to get to do is to be in someone else's head, to be in someone else's ears, I think. So, speaking of reading audio books, listening to audio books, and reading, can we talk a little bit about what we've been listening to and reading? And for me it has been listening to, but I would love to hear what you guys have been reading this week.

KJ: 30:33 I have a really good one. I think Sarina mentioned this one on the podcast before, but I just want to shout out to Leigh Bardugo's Ninth House, which was a really, really fun fantasy read, which I personally finished over Halloween, but it's perfect for any dark and dreary fall season, or heck a beach read. Really, anything you could possibly come up with. Fun, paranormal, lots of suspense, great characters, a real page turner for me. I had a great time with it.

Sarina: 31:06 I'm so happy you liked it.

Jess: 31:08 Yeah. You two have been talking about that one for a long time. I got to catch up and read that one, too.

Sarina: 31:12 Do it.

Jess: 31:12 Sarina, what do you have?

Sarina: 31:14 Yesterday I read Never Have I Ever by Joshilyn Jackson, which you guys had an episode about, actually. And her writing is so beautiful and it sent me into a little spiral of trying to define what it means to have an unreliable narrator. And after I figure that out I'll get back to you.

Jess: 31:35 And reliable narrator meaning we just can't trust everything they're telling us, which I would think would put the author in a very tricky place. So I'm excited to hear more about that. I decided to re download and listen to Olive Kitteredge again because I'm going to listen to the new book Olive, again, I think is what it's called by Elizabeth Strout. And I have to say all Olive Kitteredge is even better than I remembered. It's just a beautiful, beautiful book. And the audio version of it is fantastic. It's a great book. Plus it puts me in Maine and I get in that Maine headspace and that's always good, too.

Tanya: 32:12 Well, I have something I'm reading. Because I narrate a lot of romance I like to read dark things for pleasure. So this is called The Chestnut Man and it's by Soren Sveistrup. It's about a serial killer, so it's pretty dark, but I'm really enjoying it.

Jess: 32:30 I'm totally into those books and I've got a lot of travel coming up so will be downloading that one, too. And Tanya, do you have a bookstore for us to talk about this week?

Tanya: 32:40 Sure. I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan and there's a great bookstore called Schuler Books. They have two locations and it's cozy and they have coffee and they also highlight a lot of local writers, which is always great to see.

Jess: 32:57 I'm sort of excited. I get to go to Nashville next week or later this week, which means I get to visit Parnassus. I'm so excited, it's going to be so much fun. Alright, I think that's it for today. And Sarina, would you like to take us out today?

Sarina: 33:11 Okay, everybody. Then, until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess: 33:29 This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 184 #BeforeYouStartthatNonFictionProject Nov 08, 2019

Every nonfiction book starts out as a glimmer of an idea. A topic. An area of interest or expertise. But you can’t just pitch a book about beekeeping, kids. You need to know a whole lot more. Is it a beekeeping memoir? A beekeeping how-to? A meditation about the relationship between bees and humanity?

In this episode, we dish about how to answer those questions, because—spoiler—that’s exactly how Jess, who just finished the draft of her second nonfiction book, has been spending her time. Well, not thinking about beekeeping, or at least, I don’t think so. She’s pretty cagey about what, exactly, she’s researching—but that’s a good thing, because this episode is about the first steps that lead to an eventual proposal and, ultimately a book, no matter what the topic.

Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, a preview of the #WritersTopFive that will be dropping into #AmWriting supporter inboxes on Monday, November 11, 2019: Top 5 Steps to Setting Up Your Author Presence on Amazon (Plus a Couple More for Extra Credit). Not joined that club yet? You’ll want to get on that. Support the podcast you love AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month.

To support the podcast and help it stay free, subscribe to our weekly #WritersTopFive email.

LINKS FROM THE PODCAST

The Art of the Book Proposal: From Focused Idea to Finished Product, Eric Maisel

The Forest for the Trees: An Editor’s Advice to Writers, Betsy Lerner

Modern Love Series on Amazon

Modern Love Column, New York Times

#AmReading (Watching, Listening)

Jess: Jess has been all in this week! Katherine Center’s Things You Save in a Fire, How to Walk Away and the bridge story between those two novels, The Girl in the Plane, plus Happiness for Beginners, The Lost Husband, and Get Lucky.

Also, Ali Wong’s Dear Girls, Ronan Farrow’s Catch and Kill, and Sarina Bowen’s Moonlighter!

Sarina: The Virgin Gift, Lauren Blakely

#FaveIndieBookstore

Octavia Books, New Orleans.

This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. AND—they’ve got a new program for new nonfiction projects! Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.

Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.

The image in our podcast illustration is by William Iven on Unsplash.

Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)

Hello listeners! If you’re in with us every week, you’re what I like to call “people of the book.’ And some of us book people discover somewhere along the way that not only we writers, we’re people with a gift for encouraging other writers. For some of us, that comes out in small ways, but for others it’s a calling and an opportunity to build a career doing work you love. Our sponsor, Author Accelerator, provides book coaching to authors (like me) but also needs and trains book coaches. If that’s got your ears perked up, head to https://www.authoraccelerator.com and click on “become a book coach.” Is it recording?

Jess